# What's with CS Joseph?



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

People seem to be lukewarm on him. Why?






Is it something I don't see?
He's a hardworking enthusiast. What do I miss here?


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## Fixated (Dec 11, 2019)

People question his typing grid and i hear that he oversimplifies/stereotypes. but i havent seen a lot of it myself. All I know is his type grid seems to be accurate for me and i got no problem with it


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Because he's the Jordan Peterson of the MBTI. He's very articulated and intellectual so people who don't know any better assume he's right about everything and follow him like a cult leader. But at the end of the day, his facts are just his perceptions and opinions and he ultimately has an agenda, like everyone else. His arrogance and unwillingness to listen to input shows that he's overcompensating for something. 

People need to stop thinking that obsession over a subject = ultimate voice on said subject. If anything, obsession means you are likely to go down the rabbit hole and disregard all facts around you. 

Real intellectual curiosity means wanting to consider all facets of something, listening to and contemplating counter-arguments, wanting to expand personal knowledge. Curiously all traits that are often associated with Ne, which he considers to be his ''hero'' function, yet he seems to actively go against everything it stands for.

Also, asking people to pay up 50 bucks to type a celebrity in 3 minutes....kinda puts the whole _''he's just enthusiastic and passionate'_' argument into question.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> Because he's the Jordan Peterson of the MBTI. He's very articulated and intellectual so people who don't know any better assume he's right about everything and follow him like a cult leader. But at the end of the day, his facts are just his perceptions and opinions and he ultimately has an agenda, like everyone else. His arrogance and unwillingness to listen to input shows that he's overcompensating for something.
> 
> People need to stop thinking that obsession over a subject = ultimate voice on said subject. If anything, obsession means you are likely to go down the rabbit hole and disregard all facts around you.
> 
> ...


If it wasn't for him I would still be looking for my intuition and parading around on PerC pretending that I'm some kind of NT.

Many people told me that I'm not intuitive but I didn't take their word because I guessed they just couldn't see something.

If this guy tells me through his grid I gotta belive it because he has no intention misleading me because he doesn't even know me.

In other words: his method so far works. I got out of my self-supposed NTness and many other people are this way see the comment above you.

He's like Steve Jobs. He may be an asshole but his freaking method works.


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## Sophi (Mar 19, 2013)

I watched a few of his videos. After watching his video on ESFJ's, I didn't think he knew what he was talking about. So since then, I haven't bothered to watch anything else of his.

He basically SAID ESFJ's were incapable of making decisions for themselves, lacked a single creative bone in their entire body, etc. He had a very noticeable negative view about us, and it wasn't even accurate. What does he think two ESFJ's do when they get together? Sit around and stare at a wall? It was extremely stereotypical. 

It seemed obvious to me maybe he knew the "descriptions" of a type forwards and backwards, but he didn't have any real world experience interacting with them... Or else his mind was so focused on his interpretation of Mbti that even if he met a person, he wouldn't be able to see them as a person, only some letters.

Why should I listen to someone determined to put people in a box and someone who can't see past the stereotypes?


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Ah yes, his infamous blindspot examples....


ISxPs will believe anything you tell them because they can't read other people's motives
IxTJs have a conversation with you on the shitter because they don't know social protocol
INxPs can't ever dress in a tasteful or matching way
IxFJs never believe data and statistics
ENxJs can't remember what happened 5 seconds ago
ESxJs can be talked into buying ice even if they're eskimos
ExFPs can never draw a logical conclusion by themselves
and ExTPs are essentially sociopaths


Blindspots are very much a thing and I actually do think this is a decent comical way to explain them, the problem he insists this is 100% accurate and infallible. 

Weird because I've never seen anyone exhibit any of those specific traits, so everyone I meet is......typeless??


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Sophi said:


> I watched a few of his videos. After watching his video on ESFJ's, I didn't think he knew what he was talking about. So since then, I haven't bothered to watch anything else of his.
> 
> He basically SAID ESFJ's were incapable of making decisions for themselves, lacked a single creative bone in their entire body, etc. He had a very noticeable negative view about us, and it wasn't even accurate. What does he think two ESFJ's do when they get together? Sit around and stare at a wall? It was extremely stereotypical.
> 
> ...


So you want to see past the stereotypes but still wanna stick around MBTI?
That's a hard sell.

And yes, in my experience ESFJs can't really make up their mind. They can accurately guess other people's motives but not their own.
Asking an ESFJ about what he/she wants is like asking an INTJ about what the social norms are.
The results will be similar and something like this: ???


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## Sophi (Mar 19, 2013)

jetser said:


> So you want to see past the stereotypes but still wanna stick around MBTI?
> That's a hard sell.
> 
> And yes, in my experience ESFJs can't really make up their mind. They can accurately guess other people's motives but not their own.
> ...


You are right, we aren't the best at making decisions. If you said to me, "What do you want to do?" my knee jerk reaction would be to say, "I don't know." (either because I don't know what I want to do, or because I want you happy, so I want to do what you want to do) 

But if you insisted, after about a minute I would think, "oh, that's what I want to do!" and I could express it. 

My point is this. ALL types have the ability to use all the functions. The function stack tells us what people are prone to use first, right?

Now I think a good friend actually would ask me "What do you want to do?" they would help me explore my weaker, less vocal side, and strengthen the ability to make decisions for myself, rather than relying on group think mentality.

However CS Joseph said, "Don't ever ask an ESFJ what to do. They want you to tell them what to do!" and then he went on about this for 2 minutes,about how ESFJs are incapable of making decisions .

No, I can make decisions. It's just not my go to. So A) what he is telling you to do seems to me to be detrimental to the growth of an ESFJ, not beneficial. It would be better to encourage me to make a decision, not allow me to always do what you want. And B) the closer an ESFJ is to you, the more comfortable they are with expressing what they want. So yeah, we do have things we want, and if my friend never asked me what I thought /wanted/etc. And constantly ordered me around like CS Joseph suggested... Well, let's say I would get fed up with that after a while. 

So again, it's not like he's 100% wrong, he knows the stereotypes. The issue is he puts people in a box, like I said. He makes it sound like I have to check my horoscope in the morning to see what I should eat for breakfast. 

So if I listen to him about other types, and here I am trying to understand others better, is he doing me any good? Or is he giving me information that's surface level true but in reality will make me view people in negative light?

So yeah he's a no for me.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I think he needs to distinguish the difference between _''They are prone to''_ vs. _''They will definitely''_. 

He uses this tactic too in his 3 minute typings of celebrities and it's really annoying. Like a Si would never say _''We''_ when refering to the past. Um, yeah they could. It's a pronoun used to describe the first person in plural and it becomes quite handy, if not necessary whether you're describing the past, present or future. 

But I think that's his whole schtick. He makes up arbitrary rules that you either live or die by, therefore narrowing down your options and interpretations into one single acceptable conclusion. So if you go along with what he says, you'll have to assume he's 100% accurate with no margin of error. It's like sales pressure. Every argument will be to just buy the damn thing, no room for questioning or contemplating and if you run away then you're an idiot non-believer.


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## AgileLight (Mar 10, 2019)

jetser said:


> People seem to be lukewarm on him. Why? Is it something I don't see?
> He's a hardworking enthusiast. What do I miss here?


Let's see.... he's whiny, annoying and has a big chip on his shoulder. Every few minutes he goes into a rant about something.

He bases his descriptions of types too much on a few people he knows who are that type and not on a broad range of individuals of the type.

His so-called expertise in 'social engineering' other types is ridiculously overstated. Nothing he describes is anything that hasn't been said or done before. His description of social engineering his ex-wife was simply putting aside his ego temporarily and behaving like an adult for the sake of his children... something lots of human beings have been doing for millenia. Yawn.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

AgileLight said:


> He bases his descriptions of types too much on a few people he knows who are that type and not on a broad range of individuals of the type.


Right?!?

This is why I'm convinced he's actually STJ. He always goes back to personal anecdotes and observations. He uses his ex to describe ESFPs as a whole, his uncle to describe ISTPs and so on. And I can only imagine his _''IxTJs have conversations with you when you're on the crapper''_ just HAS to be a reference to one incident that happened to him. It's just way too weird and specific of an example to attach to a type at large. 

I should know, because as an ISTJ I do this all the time. Someone asks me for example what is Inferior Si, I'll automatically think of my ENTP and ENFP friends, compare and contrast where they struggle in life and then find common behaviors between them that paints a pretty decent picture of inferior Si. This is why I'm always a bit at a lost when discussing INxJs because I don't know any readily ones in my life, so all I can do is go by theory and assumptions. I can't name specific recurrent behaviors from them. 

Like I said in another thread, I think the reason he types himself as ENTP is because A) Let's face it, NO ONE will take your MBTI channel seriously if you're NOT an intuitive. _''ESFJ-Kate discusses the 16 types''_ video? No thanks bitch, I'll click when you're INFP. B) He likes the whole intellectual bitchy persona which is stereotypically attached to ENTPs and I think he tries WAY too hard to play that part when he does his whole whiny voice mocking his audience _''OOOoooH But Mister Joseph, you said that...''_ because he probably figures that's such a hilarious NTP thing to do.......right??


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## Put (May 8, 2018)

I love the memes that come out of all the CSJ drama lol


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## ReliK (Feb 24, 2019)

He comes off to me as an INTP who rolls a little ti-si loopy. I've noticed this in other INTP's I've known and watched in clips, you can literally see how the information someone else presents gets immediately pushed through the ti valves, that inner system they are building, and his focus is soooo heavily on that.. watch how the interviewer reflects a bit more, kinda turning the information around and around for different interpretations, but he (CS) matches it, very quickly, right back to a specific model, discarding bits that, at least imo, could be reflected on a bit more for other interpretations, rather than just instantly matching the data he recognizes as fitting and glossing over the rest. 

I haven't seen many of his clips, and nothing about him personally bothers me really.. though there is a sense of almost desperation, and of being quite sensitive to external response.. you can see that momentum to desperately make himself understood and make it clear how it fits the model, release itself in breaks between the two exchanging. Ti doms have a hard time actively listening to others, and they get really thrown off when they are interrupted mid-stream of Ti analysis, which he does here when he goes on that rant about 'getting a word in edgewise' and then awkwardly laughing it off. 

He gets into some super interesting stuff though, about 22 min in, regarding how the shadow self and unintegrated self come about from the subconscious vs unconscious, how these functions can be flipped in different ways. I really liked that idea.


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## smallhead (Mar 21, 2017)

He's just extremely bitter and out to prove himself. That's his choice but it doesn't make for very thoughtful work in a somewhat intangible discipline that requires loads of humility to be worth anything. He treats this stuff as if he's done double-blinds decade over decade for every type when he really appears to just sit around trying to fragment people who have hurt him or who he wishes to conquer into conceptual components. That's not to say he's not interesting. Obviously I've spent some time with his videos to have formulated an opinion. I appreciate above all his focus on cognitive functions and dismissal of type as anything other than that interplay. He's also brought a lot of other interesting elements to my attention like interaction styles, temperaments, and the four sides of the mind. I don't buy all of it. Maybe 20 percent. I like the opportunity to reflect on it though.


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## AgileLight (Mar 10, 2019)

Stevester said:


> Right?!?
> 
> I should know, because as an ISTJ I do this all the time. Someone asks me for example what is Inferior Si, I'll automatically think of my ENTP and ENFP friends, compare and contrast where they struggle in life and then find common behaviors between them that paints a pretty decent picture of inferior Si. This is why I'm always a bit at a lost when discussing INxJs because I don't know any readily ones in my life, so all I can do is go by theory and assumptions. I can't name specific recurrent behaviors from them.
> 
> Like I said in another thread, I think the reason he types himself as ENTP is because A) Let's face it, NO ONE will take your MBTI channel seriously if you're NOT an intuitive. _''ESFJ-Kate discusses the 16 types''_ video? No thanks bitch, I'll click when you're INFP. B) He likes the whole intellectual bitchy persona which is stereotypically attached to ENTPs and I think he tries WAY too hard to play that part when he does his whole whiny voice mocking his audience _''OOOoooH But Mister Joseph, you said that...''_ because he probably figures that's such a hilarious NTP thing to do.......right??


Yup.

If I had the time and energy, I could make a long, detailed and outlined list of what CSJ gets wrong and how effed up his methods and ideas are. But I don't have the time or energy, and I'm sure other people have discussed it all in detail, if not here, then on Reddit or in the comments under his videos.

I'm also tired of the "OOOoooH But Mister CS Joseph...." whiny voice. Dude, Jim Carrey you are not. (Not I was never that big of a fan of Jim Carrey anyhow.) And I agree about the whole intellectually bitchy persona.

There are people I've watched on YT and afterward felt the need to take a hot shower to wash off their mental slime. I don't get that with CSJ, more just a feeling of sadness. For all that he _thinks_ he understands and can predict and control other people and situations, he comes across as a very sad person. I hope he gets some mental help IRL and gets his mental and emotional problems straightened out. He's quite clever and sharp, has the gift of gab and was sometimes authentic and emotionally honest in his earlier videos, but he's still very immature and comes across as cultish. Ironically, he's well on his way to becoming a narcissistic, weird old fart like Talking With Famous People who he takes jabs at. Takes one to know one, right?!


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Sophi said:


> So again, it's not like he's 100% wrong, he knows the stereotypes. The issue is he puts people in a box, like I said. He makes it sound like I have to check my horoscope in the morning to see what I should eat for breakfast.
> 
> So if I listen to him about other types, and here I am trying to understand others better, is he doing me any good? Or is he giving me information that's surface level true but in reality will make me view people in negative light?


Well, people usually don't like when someone offers them a reality check. Like you are this and you are that.
But in the long run it helps, unless you take it too seriously.

I don't know about ESFJs that well but I just checked out that video and it was 100% accurate about my aunt, who is an ESFJ.
Everything from the decision making to the supposed self-sacrifice thing to the covert contract to the "you should listen to my advice" thing to her critical Se.
I can't even pinpoint something in there that wasn't 100% accurate.

Now if you take that as an offense I get it, but a reality check wouldn't hurt once in a while. Especially that you shouldn't take it seriously.
A lot of bad things are said about INTJs as well. They shouldn't be offended. They have a lot of great qualities just like everyone has it's just that you have to sort out the things that you are good at from the things that you are not so good.
At least if you wanna buy into this whole thing.

But I guess you would rather see a positive approach to this whole thing that encourages your weakness.

I can only speak for myself but I'm already here for the personal growth. I check out MBTI to improve myself.
And hearing about my shortcomings or weaknesses doesn't make me uncomfortable at all - on the contary, it eases my conscious that I'm not alone with this and it's not some fault on my own, but something I can be better at. I seeked out this kind of advice myself. I didn't expect sweets and cherries. I expect hard work that I need to put into the bettering of myself.

I don't expect anyone to like this approach but I wouldn't be interested in MBTI if I didn't think I need to become better.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> I think he needs to distinguish the difference between _''They are prone to''_ vs. _''They will definitely''_.
> 
> He uses this tactic too in his 3 minute typings of celebrities and it's really annoying. Like a Si would never say _''We''_ when refering to the past. Um, yeah they could. It's a pronoun used to describe the first person in plural and it becomes quite handy, if not necessary whether you're describing the past, present or future.
> 
> But I think that's his whole schtick. He makes up arbitrary rules that you either live or die by, therefore narrowing down your options and interpretations into one single acceptable conclusion. So if you go along with what he says, you'll have to assume he's 100% accurate with no margin of error. It's like sales pressure. Every argument will be to just buy the damn thing, no room for questioning or contemplating and if you run away then you're an idiot non-believer.


You take it too literal. He shouldn't be taken so literal, it's all for the comedic effect to lessen the burden his words might put on you.
I mean if he says that "IxTJ always this and that" then you know it's not about you and you shouldn't take it too seriously.
But if that's your takeaway from the whole thing you should probably not listen to him.

I'd rather take this than sugarcoating about my own faults and shortcomings just to not see any improvements in the long run.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> Right?!?
> 
> This is why I'm convinced he's actually STJ. He always goes back to personal anecdotes and observations. He uses his ex to describe ESFPs as a whole, his uncle to describe ISTPs and so on. And I can only imagine his _''IxTJs have conversations with you when you're on the crapper''_ just HAS to be a reference to one incident that happened to him. It's just way too weird and specific of an example to attach to a type at large.
> 
> ...


Well if that's what makes you an ISTJ then I guess everyone's is an ISTJ because I've seen that attitude from everyone.
_"I know someone who is like this and that and he's/she's like this person and..."_
I don't think you can make an assumption about anything without taking into account the things that you know.
Well, unless you're ENxJ, then you can.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

AgileLight said:


> Let's see.... he's whiny, annoying and has a big chip on his shoulder. Every few minutes he goes into a rant about something.
> 
> He bases his descriptions of types too much on a few people he knows who are that type and not on a broad range of individuals of the type.
> 
> His so-called expertise in 'social engineering' other types is ridiculously overstated. Nothing he describes is anything that hasn't been said or done before. His description of social engineering his ex-wife was simply putting aside his ego temporarily and behaving like an adult for the sake of his children... something lots of human beings have been doing for millenia. Yawn.


It's all super funny how you take it all personal and stuff.
Like has it actually occured to you that he doesn't you know and probably doesn't care about you personally?
It would be much wiser to discuss his method why it works or doesn't work, if you think so, than launching personal attacks on him.

Like have you actually ever brought an iPhone or another piece of technology because you liked whoever was in charge when making them?
Or you just brought them because they were nice and fitting to your needs?

In case you don't understand, who the hell cares about this guy as long as his method works?
And if it doesn't work then why don't we dissect it instead of making personal attacks?
Stop being so sensitive.


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## AgileLight (Mar 10, 2019)

jetser said:


> It's all super funny how you take it all personal and stuff.
> Like has it actually occured to you that he doesn't you know and probably doesn't care about you personally?
> It would be much wiser to discuss his method why it works or doesn't work, if you think so, than launching personal attacks on him.
> 
> ...


????

Where do you read me "taking things personally" in my post? I didn't take anything he says personally, rather I stated I find his style and demeanor irritating and distracting to the information and method he offers. And since he shares his content in the form of videos, criticism of his style and demeanor is completely relevant to any discussion of his content. 

It's true, I could have offered several paragraphs critiquing his methods too, but as I said above, I don't care to expend that much time or energy and other people have described problems with his methods fairly well elsewhere. 

If someone has behavior so annoying they make themselves tedious to listen to, then they don't fit any needs I might have related to typology or self-development, which include a) clarity and useful, actionable information _and_ b) ideas that lead me to a deeper understanding and stimulate further thinking. For sake of comparison, there is a YT content creator, Dr. Todd Grande, who I find offers information that leads me to a deeper understanding of mental health topics. Try watching a few of his videos. I can't claim I find all of the subjects relevant or useful, but he offers a serious, nuanced discussion of the subject matter and he doesn't disrupt his discussions by going off into personal rants every few minutes. https://www.youtube.com/user/RioGrande51/videos

You asked, "People seem to be lukewarm on him. Why? Is it something I don't see? He's a hardworking enthusiast. What do I miss here?" Well, several people gave you their answers, and you may not like or agree with their answers, but those are their answers. You got what you asked for.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

jetser said:


> People seem to be lukewarm on him. Why?
> Is it something I don't see?
> He's a hardworking enthusiast. What do I miss here?


Because he does not have a lot of abbreviations behind his name and anything outside of the box is usually, not socially acceptable.

He does not serve a nice spoon full of sugar with his delivery as well which~ is off putting to the more sensitive of souls.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2019)

Stevester said:


> This is why I'm convinced he's actually STJ.



*E*: he talks a lot, for a long time, alone or with many people in live while being the point of reference. He displays a very smiling avatar. He often speaks with big gestures and inportant facial expressions.

*N*: he is passionate about the abstract world and possibilities. 

*T*: he use logic and only.

*P*: his speech is improvised.


*Ne*: his intuition is turned outwards, people, typing proposals. He's fast, he doesn't waste time. He exudes a little arrogance in front of others which is explained by a dominant intuition and not by a pure logic.
*Ti*: his primary interest seems to be the conceptual classification according to a personal logic.
*Fe*: he is not a cold personn. He is expressive.
*Si*: apparently he often refers to personal past experiences to explain his choice.




Stevester said:


> His arrogance and unwillingness to listen to input shows that he's overcompensating for something.



He is a bit arrogant as lot of ENTPs... 

Guy, why do you always complicated more than necessary ...

16P says about ENTP: _Intolerant – Unless people are able to back up their ideas in a round of mental sparring, Debaters are likely to dismiss not just the ideas but the people themselves. Either a suggestion can stand up to rational scrutiny or it’s not worth bothering with._


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2019)

These two sentances are in fact interesting...



Stevester said:


> His arrogance and unwillingness to listen to input shows that he's overcompensating for something.





Stevester said:


> Also, asking people to pay up 50 bucks to type a celebrity in 3 minutes....kinda puts the whole _''he's just enthusiastic and passionate'_' argument into question.


Because here you sink into the details, the "maybe" and the values ... The overview prohibits this. Or you become subjective. Your moral conception of what is good or bad can affect your judgment, have you thought about that...


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Sad Joker said:


> *E*: he talks a lot, for a long time, alone or with many people in live while being the point of reference. He displays a very smiling avatar. He often speaks with big gestures and inportant facial expressions.
> 
> *N*: he is passionate about the abstract world and possibilities.
> 
> ...


It's obvious he's an NT. He doesn't use pre-existing methods or beliefs to back up his claim. In fact, he counters them and tries to create his own.
Like, that's the definition of Ne-Ti.


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## LonelySpaceEmperor (Jan 4, 2018)

His "teachings" are completely based on his own interpretation of Carl Jung's (and his peers'). Like every other "revolutionary" MBTI YouTuber who has a unique on the MBTI he calls his version the version most true to Jung.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

He's some kind of neurotic NJ who wants to see himself as NP, but all his work betray his NJness. He wants to control others, direct their fates, as he's admitted- he walks up to relative strangers and tells them things he's observed in order to guide them towards what he's seen as important for their lives, he tries to teach people how to manipulate others, and so on. He thinks he's some genius but his system is full of inconsistencies, like how he claims an ENTP can be better at being ISFJ than an ISFJ, shows that he doesn't understand how cognitive preferences work at all. But it works for him because he can tell himself he's an ENTP because he just utilizes on-demand his INTJ unconscious.



jetser said:


> If it wasn't for him I would still be looking for my intuition and parading around on PerC pretending that I'm some kind of NT.
> 
> Many people told me that I'm not intuitive but I didn't take their word because I guessed they just couldn't see something.
> 
> ...


Well you still have ENTP as your type so you are technically parading as one 

Your logic doesn't make much sense, if anyone it's CSJ who has more reasons to mislead you, since he actually gains potential monetary value from this, if not directly from you then someone else who might see your posts and be convinced he's worthy of it. 

His system is based on the work of others first, which is probably the part that works better, but he's given it his own twists, like that he can call upon his ESFP superego to talk like a valley girl and pretend to have fun and something along those lines, that makes absolutely no sense and is very far from the reality of being ENTP.


Oh and bonus this hilarious vid showcasing his Ni (don't care about the commentary just the CSJ glory)


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## Joker Begins (Dec 15, 2019)

Red Panda said:


> He's some kind of neurotic NJ who wants to see himself as NP, but all his work betray his NJness.


MBTI says:

_People with ENTP preferences tend to have an innovative way of thinking. They see connections that others miss and quickly recognize patterns within a system. 
_

_People with INTJ preferences are often great at developing compelling long-range visions. They like to create innovative solutions to complex problems._


To be at this point in contradiction with the MBTI while continuing to use it, I'm not sure which of you two is really neurotic ...:laughing:


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Joker Begins said:


> MBTI says:
> 
> _People with ENTP preferences tend to have an innovative way of thinking. They see connections that others miss and quickly recognize patterns within a system.
> _
> ...


I can assure you ~you are wasting your time with that one. I cringe every time I see the screen name and the thoughts of her calling someone daddy that will never fuck her.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Report me like you love to do. You precious soul : )


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

ENIGMA2019 said:


> Report me like you love to do. You precious soul : )


the irony is, you're the one who causes the cringe, since you're the one who doesn't understand the joke

also, funny to see you are still so fixated on this that you have to interfere in yet another completely random thread


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Joker Begins said:


> MBTI says:
> 
> _People with ENTP preferences tend to have an innovative way of thinking. They see connections that others miss and quickly recognize patterns within a system.
> _
> ...


There's no contradiction there, CSJ has done exaclty what it says for the INTJ, he's admitted so when he's mentioned that he likes to use his intuition to single out something in other peoples' lives and interfere to guide them. He's typed INFJ and INTJ in the MBTI anyways.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> the irony is, you're the one who causes the cringe, since you're the one who doesn't understand the joke
> 
> also, funny to see you are still so fixated on this that you have to interfere in yet another completely random thread












I just do not respect you (you do not respect yourself) or like you. However, you do provide entertainment for me on occasion.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

I am bored and you will do for the moment. Please, continue on


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> He's some kind of neurotic NJ who wants to see himself as NP, but all his work betray his NJness. He wants to control others, direct their fates, as he's admitted- he walks up to relative strangers and tells them things he's observed in order to guide them towards what he's seen as important for their lives, he tries to teach people how to manipulate others, and so on. He thinks he's some genius but his system is full of inconsistencies, like how he claims an ENTP can be better at being ISFJ than an ISFJ, shows that he doesn't understand how cognitive preferences work at all. But it works for him because he can tell himself he's an ENTP because he just utilizes on-demand his INTJ unconscious.


You guys focus too much on the supposed type of certain people and not enough on the method or the intention of the typing itself.

When he says ENTPs can be better at being an ISFJ than ISFJs themselves (though I've never heard this comment from him) it's with the intention that you'll become a better person.
It doesn't make a difference whether you'll be actually better at _ISFJing_ but you have to know that you have it in you to be better at something that you've never thought you can be better at.


And no, he doesn't gain anything from me being an ENTP or an ESTP since _he doesn't even know me_.
While others in the forum or elsewhere can trick me into being someone I don't like to be.

And excuse me, but I don't take advices from someone who can't even articulate his opinion in a way that sounds at least professional or I don't see the thought process behind it.

_"Sorry, you're no xxxx son"_ doesn't work for me as an attempt to change my type. lol



> Well you still have ENTP as your type so you are technically parading as one


Yep, I need more proof that I'm ESTP. Until that it stays ENTP.


----------



## Joker Begins (Dec 15, 2019)

Red Panda said:


> There's no contradiction there, CSJ has done exaclty what it says for the INTJ, he's admitted so when he's mentioned that he likes to use his intuition to single out something in other peoples' lives and interfere to guide them. He's typed INFJ and INTJ in the MBTI anyways.


Precisly. It is an _extraverted attitude_ and an _extraverted feeling_. INTJs don't care to guide others ... Unless exception if this is a part of their plan. An INTJ sees the other as a tool. It's not what CSJ says. He describes a facet of his personality, but it's clearly not his preference, like an ENFJ ...

MBTI says about ENTP:

_They’re resourceful problem solvers, often encouraging others to take the initiative._

It's more like this.



Red Panda said:


> He's typed INFJ and INTJ in the MBTI anyways.


Source?


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> You guys focus too much on the supposed type of certain people and not enough on the method or the intention of the typing itself.
> 
> When he says ENTPs can be better at being an ISFJ than ISFJs themselves (though I've never heard this comment from him) it's with the intention that you'll become a better person.
> It doesn't make a difference whether you'll be better at _ISFJing_ actually but you have to know that you have it in you to be better at something that you've never thought you can be better at.


It's not about his type, but the method which arises from his way of seeing typology, that also relates to his own personality.
The rest seems like your interpretation to avoid seeing the issue here, becoming the opposite of your type doesn't necessarily make you a "better person". Becoming more like the opposite of your type makes you less your type, because it requires the weakening of your dominant drives and it says nothing about how "good" you are to begin with.
He says it somewhere after 20min in this vid

* *














> And no, he doesn't gain anything from me being an ENTP or an ESTP since _he doesn't even know me_.
> While others in the forum or elsewhere can trick me into being someone I don't like to be.
> 
> And excuse me, but I don't take advices from someone who can't even articulate his opinion in a way that sounds at least professional or I don't see the thought process behind it.
> ...


The same you say for CSJ are true for any random person online who tries to type you. And why would anyone want to trick you? I agree it's fair to expect some reasoning tho.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Joker Begins said:


> Precisly. It is an _extraverted attitude_ and an _extraverted feeling_. INTJs don't care to guide others ... Unless exception if this is a part of his plan. An INTJ sees the other as a tool. It's not what CSJ says. He describes a facet of his personality, but it's clearly not his preference, like an ENFJ ...
> 
> MBTI says about ENTP:
> 
> ...


ENTPs care even less to guide others especially when not asked, because they don't want the responsibility of meddling in peoples' lives, typically and especially in random peoples'
anyways, he mentions it here, at 10min+








> Source?


somewhere in this vid


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> ENTPs care even less to guide others especially when not asked, because they don't want the responsibility of meddling in peoples' lives, typically and especially in random peoples'
> anyways, he mentions it here, at 10min+


He was typed an INTJ. So? Who trusts an online test anyway?

Part of it is because you always have a bias towards answering it what you _percieve is right_ instead of being honest to yourself.


And if you go by the functions actually Ne-Fe is _literally _about guiding others in a way that's fresh and new and no one did it before.
Just because most people who are ENTPs stop at being funny clowns doesn't mean that they can't be responsible advice givers.


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## Joker Begins (Dec 15, 2019)

Red Panda said:


> ENTPs care even less to guide others especially when not asked, because they don't want the responsibility of meddling in peoples' lives, typically and especially in random peoples'
> anyways, he mentions it here, at 10min+




Ok two things.

1. He doesn't say he takes the official test, but internet tests like idrlabs and 16p...
That why, there is a "Test*S*" in the tittle...

2. He doesn't say anything about what you pretend at 10 minutes ...


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> He was typed an INTJ. So? Who trusts an online test anyway?
> 
> Part of it is because you always have a bias towards answering it what you _percieve is right_ instead of being honest to yourself.


I agree on its own it doesn't say much, but it's one factor of many and in his case they all tie together. If you watch that vid I linked he gives more.



> And if you go by the functions actually Ne-Fe is _literally _about guiding others in a way that's fresh and new and no one did it before.
> Just because most people who are ENTPs stop at being funny clowns doesn't mean that they can't be responsible advice givers.


ENTPs don't go hunt for opportunities to change peoples' course of life without beign asked, they don't want that responsibility like it's typical for Ps. They can be awesome advice givers if you ask them, but he's talking basically about having an ego trip by doing that. 



Joker Begins said:


> Ok two things.
> 
> 1. He doesn't say he takes the official test, but internet tests like idrlabs an 16p...
> That why, there is a "Test*S*" in the tittle...
> ...


see above

lol. I just gave you some previous context, it's a couple minutes later


----------



## Grey Wolf (Sep 9, 2017)

Fixated said:


> People question his typing grid and i hear that he oversimplifies/stereotypes. but i havent seen a lot of it myself. All I know is his type grid seems to be accurate for me and i got no problem with it


This a good summary, so I'm going to answer to your post. People mistakenly believe he invented everything on the type grid, when he's admitted that he didn't. As jetser said, he is a hardworking, enthusiast, and I do appreciate that. The main problem for me with some of his videos is his heavy usage of stereotypes based on limited exposure to a type. We all do it, but being more knowledgeable on typology I'd expect him to make note of when he's using stereotypical examples.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Grey Wolf said:


> The main problem for me with some of his videos is his heavy usage of stereotypes based on limited exposure to a type. We all do it, but being more knowledgeable on typology I'd expect him to make note of when he's using stereotypical examples.


That's why when he says something like ESTPs are horndogs who sleep around because committing to one person scares the beejeebus out of them, I'm usually the first one to say ''Yup!''. I _know_ it's a stereotype, but I've seen it so often that I have a hard time arguing against it. It reaches the point where those who _don't_ do that are probably exceptions. But I do realize it's ultimately ignorant to attribute this to a type as a whole. 

That's why when he pulls a specific person and a specific behavior, that's when I check out. Like, my ESFP ex used to do this very specific thing all ESFPs do this very specific thing, so stop doing this very specific thing ESFPs! STOP DOING THAT VERY SPECIFIC THING ESFPs STOP DOING THAT!!! So you'll excuse me if I think that this notion of _''From my experience these people always do that'' _comes from a Si perspective as opposed to a deep analytical Ti perspective, which is what his defenders/fan assume.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

The sensitivity in this thread is just astounding.

Jesus, people.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

All I see is rational arguments... If anything I only sound hysterical when I'm quoting/paraphrasing him


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> All I see is rational arguments... If anything I only sound hysterical when I'm quoting/paraphrasing him


_"That's why when he pulls a specific person and a specific behavior, that's when I check out. Like, my ESFP ex used to do this very specific thing all ESFPs do this very specific thing, so stop doing this very specific thing ESFPs! STOP DOING THAT VERY SPECIFIC THING ESFPs STOP DOING THAT!!!"_

No, you're hysterical on your own volition.

That's is called Fe tertiary. You have a Fe trickster. Deal with it.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

And you have a bit of a cultist syndrome if you don't mind me saying so.

It's cool if you like him and want to defend him. I mean I do actually follow his channel obviously or else I wouldn't be arguing in this thread to begin. I understand because I do this too when someone attacks a figure I look up to. But using his exact words and theory all the time as rebuttals is just wee bit Manson-like creepy. 

Also don't forget you're the one who started this thread inquiring into why some people don't agree with him, so being so defensive when people share their arguments as to why that is, seems somewhat counterproductive.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

lol, the minute he generalized that all INTJ's are good dancers, I roflamo'd and ALT-F4...


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> lol, the minute he generalized that all INTJ's are good dancers, I roflamo'd and ALT-F4...


You're being way too irrational and emotional Mr. INTJ!! Stop that! STOP TAKING THINGS SO PERSONALLY WITH YOUR FE TRICKSTER!!! SERIOUSLY!! STOP DOING THAT!!! STOP FOLLOWING ME AND ASKING ME MY OPINIONS ON THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS WHEN I'M ON THE SHITTER MR. INTJ!!!


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> And you have a bit of a cultist syndrome if you don't mind me saying so.
> 
> It's cool if you like him and want to defend him. I mean I do actually follow his channel obviously or else I wouldn't be arguing in this thread to begin. I understand because I do this too when someone attacks a figure I look up to. But using his exact words and theory all the time as rebuttals is just wee bit Manson-like creepy.
> 
> Also don't forget you're the one who started this thread inquiring into why some people don't agree with him, so being so defensive when people share their arguments as to why that is, seems somewhat counterproductive.


I like what I like. No one can tell me what I like or not.

But if I ask people what they don't like about someone, I actually expect more than "OMG JESUS HE SHOUTS AT ME Can you believe that?" arguments because that's ridiculous.

I haven't heard anything about his typing grid not working. Like, have you tried it and it gave a different outcome that you expected? And it kept not working no matter how you tried?
It would be an argument.

Or how about actually dissecting what he says specifically? Yeah, I know it's funny when he says that all INTJs are good dancers but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!
How about when he says ESTPs can give a new experience to ENFPs and take them to a new route? Have you ever heard that?
Have you ever experienced that?
I have. He's the only one mentioning it.

How about the four sides of the mind? Have you dissected that? Does it work? Does it not? How about actually dealing with his _process _ rather than focus on his speech or his personality?

_All the criticism are about his personality._

Not one about the typing grid, four sides of the mind, or his actual typings?
Like do you think Elon Musk is an INTP? I do. He's the only one that actually thinks that. Everyone else thinks he's INTJ which is crazy.

etc...

All I hear is crying and screaming, not one rational argument, like the ones Ocean Helm or Turi made or a lots of others.

You simply became soft and you'll all hate him for exposing that softness.


And by the way: whoever follows MBTI is in a cult. Because it's not a science and it was invented by Jung. So you're a follower of Jung.
Who cares dude?


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

If you like what you like and no one can convince you otherwise then congrats, you're Fi! 

I have testified in another thread how his typing grid doesn't work, remember? I said I disagreed with it because he said ISTJs are _''movement''_ which means they get off on chaos and I was like _''WTF??''_ and I did validate that some aspects of that grid do actually work, but as a whole it has flaws, whereas he says it's 100% accurate. 

Four sides of the minds IS actually pretty interesting, my issue is that he uses that in the rare off chance where he admits misptying someone. Like, _''I think you guys are right, he/she were in their ENFJ super-ego when I typed them'_'. Otherwise known as I fucked up and forgotten some obvious points so lemme rectify it under a scientific point of view as to not admit I might've jumped the gun to make 50 easy bucks. 

Yes, some criticism about him are about his personality; him being arrogant, whiny, having a chip on his shoulders etc. but most people also offer objective counter-arguments as to why he's wrong about his theoretical work, which has nothing to do with his personality.

There....really is no crying and screaming. I don't know why you keep saying that. Everybody here seems pretty chill and poise when presenting their opinion. Maybe fix the volume on your headphones? Because this sounds like the PerC equivalent of _''FAKE NEWS!!''_.

And finally yes, a lot of us are _''slaves''_ to the original theory. Me being the first. But I'm open-minded. I like to hear new perspectives on it. It's just that my Fi child (See? I'm using his linguo! ) has issues with someone telling me they have cracked the code and everything I have ever believed about it is wrong, wrong, wrong and that same person asking people to front 50 bucks to type their favorite celebrity. That kinda triggers my Fi, so.......touché?


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## AgileLight (Mar 10, 2019)

jetser said:


> I like what I like. No one can tell me what I like or not.


Same here. And I don't like what I don't like as well. 



jetser said:


> But if I ask people what they don't like about someone, I actually expect more than "OMG JESUS HE SHOUTS AT ME Can you believe that?" arguments because that's ridiculous.


Not really, you need to make your expectations clear. When you asked at the top of the thread why people are luke-warm on CSJ, you weren't specific and you didn't ask whether we thought his type grid works or what we think about the four sides of the mind. Start a thread with either of those, and you'll get much different responses... and probably start a very interesting conversation as well.



jetser said:


> All I hear is crying and screaming


Well, you're doing some of that yourself, lol.



jetser said:


> You simply became soft and you'll all hate him for exposing that softness.


Nah, not really. I just find him tedious and I'm not willing to wade through his rants, stories, and tangents to hear 90 seconds of theory that may or may not be useful.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

jetser said:


> And by the way: whoever follows MBTI is in a cult. Because it's not a science and it was invented by Jung. So you're a follower of Jung.
> Who cares dude?


Comparing Jung to some rando youtuber bruh moment


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Convex said:


> Comparing Jung to some rando youtuber bruh moment


Huh bro? People are people. Some are more famous. _Dissect the theory_. Not the dude.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> I have testified in another thread how his typing grid doesn't work, remember? I said I disagreed with it because he said ISTJs are _''movement''_ which means they get off on chaos and I was like _''WTF??''_


That's the only valid criticism I heard so far and I acknowledged it.
I don't understand how ISTJs can be Movement types but then it's the only thing that's been given to me so far.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

jetser said:


> Huh bro? People are people. Some are more famous. _Dissect the theory_. Not the dude.


Sometimes the person is relevant to their own theory, bro


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Convex said:


> Comparing Jung to some rando youtuber bruh moment


By the was it's the same old "show me your credentials" argument.
Congratulations, you're an SJ.




> Sometimes the person is relevant to their own theory, bro


No, not really. We're all just tools to move it forward. It doesn't matter who started it and who's next.
All that matters is that we're headed to the right way.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

jetser said:


> By the was it's the same old "show me your credentials" argument.
> Congratulations, you're an SJ.
> 
> 
> ...


What credentials? Jung is infinitely smarter than this dude, fact. His theory is infinitely better than this dude, fact. Motivations can answer and give perspective to someone's theory, fact.

What more do you want?


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Convex said:


> What more do *you want?*



You mentioned what *somedody else* wants! That is extroverted Intuition, you are Ne! Plz change your typing to ENTP before all-encompassing angry God CS Jospeh gets mad!

It's the same way he typed Ellen as ENTP because she asked Twitch what *he wanted* for Christmas. Case closed!


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

Stevester said:


> You mentioned what *somedody else* wants! That is extroverted Intuition, you are Ne! Plz change your typing to ENTP before all-encompassing angry God CS Jospeh gets mad!
> 
> It's the same way he typed Ellen as ENTP because she asked Twitch what *he wanted* for Christmas. Case closed!


Damn well at least I keep the T cause I used the word fact


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Yes, but do you say _''I think''_ or _''We think''_ when making logical assessments?


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## Joker Plays Poker (Dec 16, 2019)

Stevester said:


> That kinda triggers my Fi, so.......touché?


Indeed, you are too stuck to be led by a total thought. A bit like CSJ and his intuition.

However, even if my English is poor, I have advanced very clearly by the official definitions why it could not be anything other than ENTP. Your arguments are limited to value judgments, details and unnecessary complications. Besides, your conclusion is in direct contradiction with your present topic on _Occam's razor_


Remember that similar effects can be produced by different causes.


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## Joker Plays Poker (Dec 16, 2019)

And since I seem to be writing in a vacuum, I start again: he makes live on youtube and comments in front of many people. It is typically the Percever attitude. Nothing forces him to do that. And no J would do that unless to be force.


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## Folsom (Jun 20, 2018)

jetser said:


> That's the only valid criticism I heard so far and I acknowledged it.
> I don't understand how ISTJs can be Movement types but then it's the only thing that's been given to me so far.


Does the idea of ESTP being 'Control' types in his system make sense to you? If 'Movement' is thriving in chaos then wouldn't that fit ESTP more?
I haven't looked too deeply into the definitions he uses, just watched the basic videos he's done.


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## integra (Nov 7, 2019)

broad strokes aren't going to apply to everyone.
just take it for what it is, either it resonates with you or it doesn't, and the thing not resonating with you doesn't make it not correct in broad strokes.
nitpicking over stuff like this makes civil discourse impossible, everyone pretending to be an academic on the matter isn't helping.
just go make your own mbti youtube channel and make your interpretation of the thing the gospel...like what csj is doing.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Folsom said:


> Does the idea of ESTP being 'Control' types in his system make sense to you? If 'Movement' is thriving in chaos then wouldn't that fit ESTP more?
> I haven't looked too deeply into the definitions he uses, just watched the basic videos he's done.


It makes sense from a communication standpoint.
And it makes sense because I know some ESTPs (including my father) and he was anything but Movement.

He was like a J type, only living in the moment. And didn't like judging people.
In fact, he condemned people that tried judging others and he was a rebel against institutions and traditions.

From a pure communication standpoint he was a J though. He couldn't be rushed and he couldn't be forced into decision making. He took his time and made sure it was the perfect decision whatever he was doing


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Honestly, why would ESTPs fit the jock mold if they weren't control ?
They fit the jock mold because they try to give anybody a reality check. They try to control the outcome of events.
Not like they really care though. That's what makes them a P. But they certainly look and feel like they're J types.


----------



## NIHM (Mar 24, 2014)

Stevester said:


> Because he's the Jordan Peterson of the MBTI. He's very articulated and intellectual so people who don't know any better assume he's right about everything and follow him like a cult leader. But at the end of the day, his facts are just his perceptions and opinions and he ultimately has an agenda, like everyone else. His arrogance and unwillingness to listen to input shows that he's overcompensating for something.
> 
> People need to stop thinking that obsession over a subject = ultimate voice on said subject. If anything, obsession means you are likely to go down the rabbit hole and disregard all facts around you.
> 
> ...


----------



## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)

Stevester said:


> Ah yes, his infamous blindspot examples....
> 
> 
> ISxPs will believe anything you tell them because they can't read other people's motives
> ...


Lmao. This system of his has so many holes it would make swish cheese blush :laughing:


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I mean, when it comes to making moves I'm really slow and will often act only once my back is up against the wall. I want to change jobs then I'll slowly look at other possibilities very casually until uh oh! I just got laid off. And now is the time to act.

Meanwhile my ESTP friends if they want something, they go get it. Decent job? Who cares, there's better out there and they'll go find it. 

Is THAT what he means by control vs. movement? Because his definitions don't really add up.


----------



## joup (Oct 5, 2014)

fantastic thread, and about time.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> I mean, when it comes to making moves I'm really slow and will often act only once my back is up against the wall. I want to change jobs then I'll slowly look at other possibilities very casually until uh oh! I just got laid off. And now is the time to act.
> 
> Meanwhile my ESTP friends if they want something, they go get it. Decent job? Who cares, there's better out there and they'll go find it.
> 
> Is THAT what he means by control vs. movement? Because his definitions don't really add up.


No, it's about interaction styles.

Control types speak about outcome, results, they take their time to respond, can't be forced into decisions etc..

Movement types apparently are process oriented when they talk and they make decisions on the fly - which definitely fits some types I know, J types even.

They talk about "how much fun they had" while doing this or that while Control types would more be like "well, it was fun but it didn't make much sense to me".

My ESFJ aunt makes decisions constantly. Granted, she changes her mind all the time but she doesn't take her time to make a decision. She reacts as it's necessary.
She's lecturing me all the time that I don't react quickly enough. That I always take my time and I can't make a decision about something just like that.

ENTPs I know or my ISTP cousin are also Movement types. They make decisions like I never see it coming.
I always wonder, did you make up your mind just like that?
I need time to even order in a restaurant. You can't hurry me. I just have to take my time before I say something.

It's about interaction style. Not life choices. And definitely not a J vs P question.

--------------

Also, don't forget that while ESTPs have dominant Se they also have inferior Ni.
They never know what they want and they're always unsure about their future.
And because they practically don't have any Ne they can't see a way around a situation just like that.
Causing them to live just for the moment and stop making decisions at all.


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Back to the ESTPs.

Here are two - fictional - characters, both ESTP, both very different from each other.


First one is Teddy Sanders (Zac Efron) from the lighthearted movie Bad Neighbours.







The other one may be a bit more familiar:






It's Vito Corleone from Godfather.

Listen to them how they speak. They both come off as J types (actually I've always thought they were) despite being Ps.

They're both Control. How they speak, how they manage. ESTPs are the guys that become leaders kind of against their own will, because they're simply so good at seeing things through.

They're both ESTPs in my opinion. They're not Movement at all.


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Oh another mini-rant I forgot, he recently typed Justin Trudeau as ESTJ. Now I don't subscribe to the stereotype that all ESTJs are authoritative hardasses, but if he is ESTJ then by Golly he's the softest one I've ever seen. 

His logic was that Trudeau talked about results of his government and what other leaders are thinking. I think that's called being a Prime Minister??? Like people always ask them what they're doing wrong or right, OF COURSE they're gonna start talking about employment rates etc. Even if they are Fe (which I'm 99% sure Trudeau is) it's not like he's going to start sharing recipes when asked about the economy. And that's what I mean when I say he completely ignores context and takes words way too much at face value.......says the Ne Inferior poster to a supposed Ne Dominant MBTI master. 

Whenever someone grills Trudeau on one of his political fuck ups, he starts sweating, shaking and stuttering. Does that sound like a Te dominant to you


----------



## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> Oh another mini-rant I forgot, he recently typed Justin Trudeau as ESTJ. Now I don't subscribe to the stereotype that all ESTJs are authoritative hardasses, but if he is ESTJ then by Golly he's the softest one I've ever seen.
> 
> His logic was that Trudeau talked about results of his government and what other leaders are thinking. I think that's called being a Prime Minister??? Like people always ask them what they're doing wrong or right, OF COURSE they're gonna start talking about employment rates etc. Even if they are Fe (which I'm 99% sure Trudeau is) it's not like he's going to start sharing recipes when asked about the economy. And that's what I mean when I say he completely ignores context and takes words way too much at face value.......says the Ne Inferior poster to a supposed Ne Dominant MBTI master.
> 
> Whenever someone grills Trudeau on one of his political fuck ups, he starts sweating, shaking and stuttering. Does that sound like a Te dominant to you


I don't know what he is. I pay less attention to the people he types and more to the system by which he types.

I mean the two are two different things. Being a Ne dom he can sometimes read too much into some concrete info which can cause him mistype others.

But that doesn't mean that the system of his doesn't work. Only you have to use it right.
These are two different things.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> No, it's about interaction styles.
> 
> Control types speak about outcome, results, they take their time to respond, can't be forced into decisions etc..
> 
> ...


Berens has since renamed that to "*Process vs Outcome*" (which to me is less confusing than "Movement vs Control"). I quickly recognized that I (as a Behind the Scenes type) definitely can't stand processes (like paying off debts); I want results, while the Chart the Course types I knew, and Get Things Going spouse think more in terms of process.

So CS is interesting in that he covers the whole range of models Berens uses (including the Beebe archetypes; wonder if he has included the new Intentional Styles model, which are the groups sharing the same functions). 
But it seems the reviews are mixed, and he types people too readily on stereotypes. I'll have to check it out myself.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Eric B said:


> he types people too readily on stereotypes. I'll have to check it out myself.


He doesn't though. That's a recurring criticism I see against him that I actually disagree with. Stereotypes would be like saying someone is ISTP because they're good at fixing cars or someone is ESFJ because they're gossipy and so on.

Instead he makes up his own stereotypes. He states these very weird and way too specific behaviors and then says everyone of that type does this. Most of the examples he gives I have a really hard time thinking of anyone normal who does that, let alone everyone who is that type doing this constantly. That's why I keep criticizing him for being way too blinded by his own personal anecdotes.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

That's what I mean. He seems good in presenting all the models, but if this other stuff is true about what he says, that messes it up.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Between his really specific, pin point examples that are not actually a thing and his _''STOP DOING THAT!!'_' rants (assuming it' not for show), I think he might have Asperger's. That would actually explain a lot.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> No, it's about interaction styles.
> 
> Control types speak about outcome, results, they take their time to respond, can't be forced into decisions etc..
> 
> ...


Seems like a rational vs irrational matter to me. T/F doms are conclusion driven and as a result will be less inclined to wait and consider more, they will leave out things that dont make sense to their rationale faster in order to reach a conclusion. N/S doms are comfortable just waiting for more information to add to their decision variables and also many times, waiting for more information, a bigger perspective, makes those seemingly nonsensical things to make sense.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Eric B said:


> That's what I mean. He seems good in presenting all the models, but if this other stuff is true about what he says, that messes it up.


You have to separate his ability to read between people's comments and type people and his system as a whole.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Eric B said:


> Berens has since renamed that to "*Process vs Outcome*" (which to me is less confusing than "Movement vs Control"). I quickly recognized that I (as a Behind the Scenes type) definitely can't stand processes (like paying off debts); I want results, while the Chart the Course types I knew, and Get Things Going spouse think more in terms of process.
> 
> So CS is interesting in that he covers the whole range of models Berens uses (including the Beebe archetypes; wonder if he has included the new Intentional Styles model, which are the groups sharing the same functions).
> But it seems the reviews are mixed, and he types people too readily on stereotypes. I'll have to check it out myself.


So ISTJs, INTJs, ENTPs enjoy process while ESTPs, INTPs and ENTJs want only the results?

Can be, I hate everything that doesn't lead me to a win-win scenario. I mean literally there is no such thing to me as "fun" for its own sake.
It's no fun when it ends up nothing.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Another ESTP, Joe Pesci's character from Goodfellas.






He's also obviously a Control type.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Stevester said:


> Oh another mini-rant I forgot, he recently typed Justin Trudeau as ESTJ. Now I don't subscribe to the stereotype that all ESTJs are authoritative hardasses, but if he is ESTJ then by Golly he's the softest one I've ever seen.
> 
> His logic was that Trudeau talked about results of his government and what other leaders are thinking. I think that's called being a Prime Minister??? Like people always ask them what they're doing wrong or right, OF COURSE they're gonna start talking about employment rates etc. Even if they are Fe (which I'm 99% sure Trudeau is) it's not like he's going to start sharing recipes when asked about the economy. And that's what I mean when I say he completely ignores context and takes words way too much at face value.......says the Ne Inferior poster to a supposed Ne Dominant MBTI master.
> 
> Whenever someone grills Trudeau on one of his political fuck ups, he starts sweating, shaking and stuttering. Does that sound like a Te dominant to you


Trudeau has got to be an ESFP because it's the current year. As for the Fe, I think it's Fi to Fe for the sake of winning elections.


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## Catandroid (Jul 9, 2018)

Stevester said:


> Oh another mini-rant I forgot, he recently typed Justin Trudeau as ESTJ. Now I don't subscribe to the stereotype that all ESTJs are authoritative hardasses, but if he is ESTJ then by Golly he's the softest one I've ever seen.
> 
> His logic was that Trudeau talked about results of his government and what other leaders are thinking. I think that's called being a Prime Minister??? Like people always ask them what they're doing wrong or right, OF COURSE they're gonna start talking about employment rates etc. Even if they are Fe (which I'm 99% sure Trudeau is) it's not like he's going to start sharing recipes when asked about the economy. And that's what I mean when I say he completely ignores context and takes words way too much at face value.......says the Ne Inferior poster to a supposed Ne Dominant MBTI master.
> 
> Whenever someone grills Trudeau on one of his political fuck ups, he starts sweating, shaking and stuttering. Does that sound like a Te dominant to you


Trudeau is ENFJ on my book. 

And ENTP (The Envisioner) is not the Visionary (NJ). 

If he had been the visionary, as what it is said on his grid, he would have seen that the 16-types, 8 function model is full of half-truths and misinterpretations. Those who promote this model have absolutely no interests whatsoever in scientific validation.

The standard Grant stack may have more to do with productivity than maturity. Saying that some jumpers are less mature than he is sounds like a fallacy. We could say that Jordan Peterson is more mature as an ENTP, however his personal experience does not appear as interesting sometime.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> So ISTJs, INTJs, ENTPs enjoy process while ESTPs, INTPs and ENTJs want only the results?
> 
> Can be, I hate everything that doesn't lead me to a win-win scenario. I mean literally there is no such thing to me as "fun" for its own sake.
> It's no fun when it ends up nothing.


It sounds like either J or strongly T/F dom, EPs would be the last to be like that, if at all.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> It sounds like either J or strongly T/F dom, EPs would be the last to be like that, if at all.


According to who? Jung?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

jetser said:


> According to who? Jung?


in more words, yea

T/F doms are Rational types who are driven by conclusions, by excluding the accidental and what doesn't make sense, so if it's too relied upon it would become like you describe, if you mean that you don't see any reason that could lead you to something better by doing something "fun". 

_Reasoning judgment, in such a psychology, represents a power that coerces the untidy and accidental things of life into definite forms; such at least is its aim. Thus, on the one hand, a definite choice is made among the possibilities of life, since only the rational choice is consciously accepted; but, on the other hand, the independence and influence of those psychic functions which perceive life's happenings are essentially restricted. This limitation of sensation and intuition is, of course, not absolute. These functions exist, for they are universal; but their products are subject to the choice of the reasoning judgment. _

Or it would be J if your win-win attitude comes out of the need to have things go your way, and you shy away from challenges that threaten to change you, like you don't want to challenge yourself and see where it takes you, you just want to win.

So it depends how you mean this.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> in more words, yea
> 
> T/F doms are Rational types who are driven by conclusions, by excluding the accidental and what doesn't make sense, so if it's too relied upon it would become like you describe, if you mean that you don't see any reason that could lead you to something better by doing something "fun".
> 
> ...


It probably has more to do with the Fi blindspot that I have.

Don't ask me what I like and how I like to do things because I will give a different answer everytime.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

You know, you don't have to STOP yourself from having certain thoughts and opinions just because CS Joseph says you're not allowed to as per his theory. 

I have Fe blindspot, but I can still tell people _''Dude, you shouldn't have said that to her, that's not cool!''_. Because humans are more complex than _''IxTJs with their human relations blindspot absolutely can't tell what anyone else is feeling at all times''_. I know this will sound batshit crazy if you follow Joseph's every word to the letter, but when I see someone crying I can actually tell they're sad? Even more fucked up I can sometimes figure out *gasp* *the reasons* why they're sad!


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

jetser said:


> So ISTJs, INTJs, ENTPs enjoy process while ESTPs, INTPs and ENTJs want only the results?
> 
> Can be, I hate everything that doesn't lead me to a win-win scenario. I mean literally there is no such thing to me as "fun" for its own sake.
> It's no fun when it ends up nothing.


I'll say this, as an estp I think this mentality is weird


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> You know, you don't have to STOP yourself from having certain thoughts and opinions just because CS Joseph says you're not allowed to as per his theory.
> 
> I have Fe blindspot, but I can still tell people _''Dude, you shouldn't have said that to her, that's not cool!''_. Because humans are more complex than _''IxTJs with their human relations blindspot absolutely can't tell what anyone else is feeling at all times''_. I know this will sound batshit crazy if you follow Joseph's every word to the letter, but when I see someone crying I can actually tell they're sad? Even more fucked up I can sometimes figure out *gasp* *the reasons* why they're sad!


LOL. Okay now stop dude.
First, it's not even Chase's idea that people have blindspots.
Second, if you can assess precisely what I do like and what not based on my comments, then tell me.

And yes, your Fe blindspots shows. Like right now. You can't even evaluate the situation, all you see is characters.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Stevester said:


> You know, you don't have to STOP yourself from having certain thoughts and opinions just because CS Joseph says you're not allowed to as per his theory.
> 
> I have Fe blindspot, but I can still tell people _''Dude, you shouldn't have said that to her, that's not cool!''_. Because humans are more complex than _''IxTJs with their human relations blindspot absolutely can't tell what anyone else is feeling at all times''_. I know this will sound batshit crazy if you follow Joseph's every word to the letter, but when I see someone crying I can actually tell they're sad? Even more fucked up I can sometimes figure out *gasp* *the reasons* why they're sad!


Thank you! This is why I have been pointing out that the type (functions) preference is about particular complexes that carry the functions for different types, and not about stuff like "capability" (or "skill", etc.). Everyone can "do" any behavior that has gotten associated with certain functions.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Eric B said:


> Thank you! This is why I have been pointing out that the type (functions) preference is about particular complexes that carry the functions for different types, and not about stuff like "capability" (or "skill", etc.). Everyone can "do" any behavior that has gotten associated with certain functions.


Anybody can do anything. Yet there are weaknesses and strengths that are linked to functions.

If you want to be idealistic about it that everybody can do anything that is great but I wouldn't be insterested in MBTI if I wanted just a _simple solution_ like that.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Yes, there are weaknesses and strengths, but they can't be generalized too much, and from what's being said, it looks like CS gets into that a bit.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

We understand the idea of strengths, weaknesses and blindspots. But again, it comes down to the concept of _''Prone to/likely to''_ vs. _''always/never/impossible for them etc.''_ restrictive criteria the he simply came up with so no one will argue against him.

If anything, I think *he*'s being way too idealistic about his approach because he convinced himself and his followers that he found a 100% accurate hack for personality typing, which anyone rational would say that's impossible.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Stevester said:


> We understand the idea of strengths, weaknesses and blindspots. But again, it comes down to the concept of _''Prone to/likely to''_ vs. _''always/never/impossible for them etc.''_ restrictive criteria the he simply came up with so no one will argue against him.
> 
> If anything, I think *he*'s being way too idealistic about his approach because he convinced himself and his followers that he found a 100% accurate hack for personality typing, which anyone rational would say that's impossible.


It's impossible if you're a Rational but I'm not rational I'm logical.
So is he.

So we entertain the idea that there is a possible solution to human nature like it's math.

The rest is just playing with words. Yes, he may say too many things with an emphasis on extremes but that is because he's Fe tertiary.

And that is why I understand him. You have to spell out everything to me loud and clear so I will understand it.
That is the nature of Fe tertiary. You can't help it.


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## ZHMarquis (Oct 1, 2019)

CS Joseph is a Narcissist, in my opinion.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

ZHMarquis said:


> CS Joseph is a Narcissist, in my opinion.


I studied psychology and yes, he does check several boxes.

He has that _''I'm right, everybody else is wrong!''_ philosophy down pat and he'll even go the extra step to spit on the other popular MBTI enthusiasts on Youtube, calling them hacks and so on. A non-narcissist would respect their opinions despite not agreeing with it and furthermore may even take in their opinions to further ponder. He.....doesn't do that. 

He doesn't like to be challenged and becomes aggressive when someone disagrees with him. 

He seems to see people who disagree with him as _''enemies''_ and likewise, anyone who agrees with him is an ally. And the next logical step is that anyone who agrees with him tend to follow him as a cult leader, instead of just appreciating his insight but wanting to dissect his theories just to make sure there are no loopholes. But no, instead if you don't agree with him you're a dumbass and at best......._''you just don't get it''_. Kinda reminds me of a Certain US President....

He has superficial charm and charisma that I can see how it would appeal to the weak minded. Is he a complete conman? No, he's actually insightful in some regards and very well spoken. Hell, I find myself agreeing with him on many of his points and think that in some cases, nobody else brought this to life before. But his fans need to understand he's very much human like everyone else and doesn't actually hold all the answers. But as it is, they are particularly aggressive and demeaning whenever you challenge him.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Stevester said:


> I studied psychology and yes, he does check several boxes.
> 
> He has that _''I'm right, everybody else is wrong!''_ philosophy down pat and he'll even go the extra step to spit on the other popular MBTI enthusiasts on Youtube, calling them hacks and so on. A non-narcissist would respect their opinions despite not agreeing with it and furthermore may even take in their opinions to further ponder. He.....doesn't do that.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where his reaction can be seen when someone disagrees with him, but he does give out that vibe. I don't know if he's a narcissist, and even if he were, I don't think that bad in of itself. However, narcissist personality disorder is toxic and if he has that, I don't want anything to do with him. 

I think he views his channel as a means to make money. This MBTI stuff is more artistic than science and criticizing him for his art will hit any artist where it hurts the most. And if any artist changes their art to appease the critics, it ceases to be interesting for the artist, thereby killing the artist. So if I'm correct, then he's genuinely believing his own crap. It's up to us to not buy into it.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> I'm not sure where his reaction can be seen when someone disagrees with him, but he does give out that vibe. I don't know if he's a narcissist, and even if he were, I don't think that bad in of itself. However, narcissist personality disorder is toxic and if he has that, I don't want anything to do with him.
> 
> I think he views his channel as a means to make money. This MBTI stuff is more artistic than science and criticizing him for his art will hit any artist where it hurts the most. And if any artist changes their art to appease the critics, it ceases to be interesting for the artist, thereby killing the artist. So if I'm correct, then he's genuinely believing his own crap. It's up to us to not buy into it.


 I myself have experienced that once from the TWFP guy, and hence, mixing him up with CS, but then people are saying both of them go at each other. I guess both have the same personality flaws (narcissism, trying to make a quick buck, etc), and clash because of it? 
I too am curious for an example of this from CS.


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