# Homophoba (Please read thread description before voting!)



## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

I love how he is missing the point that it is homophobia and bigotry that makes it 'limiting' to be openly gay and not any other factor. Maybe* people should be less homophobic* so gay people wouldn't be limited when they are just not hiding their sexuality, their identity, just as straight people get to do everyday? WHAT A THOUGHT!!!!


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Oh dear, I've been out of this discussion so long I missed the foray into crossdressing? Alas. 

Note: I responded to all this, then got to the end of the thread and saw that progBot bailed on the discussion. NooOoooooOoo. But I already wrote my answers, so I'm posting them anyway, even if they shall never hear a cogent response! Cuz I just feel like it.


@progBOT: What does it mean to "dress like a man"? What does it mean to dress like a "woman"? Culturally it differs.

I do agree with your comment about letting one aspect too much define who one is... whether we're talking about sexual preference, or gender, or religion, or whatever else? We are more than male or female, straight or gay, tall or short, muslim or christian or whatever else, etc. we're people. I think we get out of whack when one traits defines everything about us. There are "general traits" like that about me that people can find fascinating, but I tell them that it's only part of who I am, and it's likely not the most interesting thing(s) about me.

I'm still not sure why you're identifying homosexuality with cross-dressing, though. The two are not the same. Drag queens are typically homosexual males, with male identities; but there are lots of gay people who don't wear cross-gendered clothing. It seems like a weird side-discussion; how many gay males crossdress to work? How many lesbians do? (And aside from wearing a suit with tie, can a lesbian even cross-dress effectively in this culture?)
Note: just saw your comment about being ESTJ. Okay. That explains some of the thinking patterns here.
I do appreciate you putting yourself out there clearly by saying this:




> I feel like the people who are doing it because they can are being selfish. They want to be able to do something that offends a lot of people just because they can and don't want ridicule for it. They aren't thinking of the majority of people whom they are offending.




My response to that is, well, that's a pretty big assumption of their motives! I feel like the entire dialogue has been reduced to the flamboyant minority of gays that would indulge as you have said, but typically must gay people I've met, you wouldn't even be able to tell they're gay... at least, not until you find out who their SO is. And I'm talking gays in the professional sector here.
 
Anyway, still not sure how this discussion veered into the crossdressing tangent.

Getting back to the "gay" thing and homophobia, I think my earlier post hinted at what I can just say outright: Typically people done't feel the need to label certain tastes/preferences as "unnatural," and in fact it's common sarcastic humor to call someone's preference (like for a particular type of weird food) "unnatural" -- it just highlights that there is a moral component to the word "unnatural," it's not a neutral term.

Because if it's just a preference, with no moral stigma, why does the word "unnatural" have any value? unnatural is only used to justify labeling something as wrong/deficient "because it goes against nature and the way things SHOULD be." 

I just really think that's a loaded word, and does not express a neutral/indifferent view, it has a lot packed into it.


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## orphansparrow (Dec 10, 2011)

okay, i know this is just slightly off topic, but this thread was upsetting me, and i just figured out the bottom line as to why that is.

WHY do people want to diminish the life of another? 

what people are really saying when they say these things is: i don't want this person to be happy. 

and that sucks.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

lirulin said:


> I love how he is missing the point that it is homophobia and bigotry that makes it 'limiting' to be openly gay and not any other factor. Maybe* people should be less homophobic* so gay people wouldn't be limited when they are just not hiding their sexuality, their identity, just as straight people get to do everyday? WHAT A THOUGHT!!!!


People will be less homophobic, it just takes time. You can't blame a person for how they were raised and with more and more people accepting it for the non-issue that it is eventually society will follow suit. It's pointless to expect that change overnight, however.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

cue5c said:


> People will be less homophobic, it just takes time. You can't blame a person for how they were raised and with more and more people accepting it for the non-issue that it is eventually society will follow suit. It's pointless to expect that change overnight, however.


You seem to have missed the point. I never said anything about expecting immediate change. I am simply pointing out the utter lack of logic in a homophobic argument. The total lack of self-awareness in the stupid stupid argument 'It is wrong to be openly gay because people are prejudiced let's blame teh gays for this it is clearly their fault!' - it is just so screwed up I can't even...

And sorry, I can blame people for being bigoted and promoting bigotry.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

I hate the term "common-sense", because it's anything but common. There are so many different life experiences and sometimes a person will miss things growing up that others didn't. When people are constantly questioning their intelligence, eventually they'll put up a wall that when someone genuinely tries to help them understand, they'll get defensive and refuse to listen. I get what you're saying and why you're frustrated, but you have to look at all the others who disagree as just as intelligent with different life experiences that haven't given them the complete picture. If you can treat someone with dignity they'll learn to respect you and your opinion and that's when you have the chance to mold their views.

You have every right to think that it's stupid. Just remember that once you say it out loud you've most likely lost an opportunity to make a difference where it counts.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

cue5c said:


> I hate the term "common-sense", because it's anything but common. There are so many different life experiences and sometimes a person will miss things growing up that others didn't. When people are constantly questioning their intelligence, eventually they'll put up a wall that when someone genuinely tries to help them understand, they'll get defensive and refuse to listen. I get what you're saying and why you're frustrated, but you have to look at all the others who disagree as just as intelligent with different life experiences that haven't given them the complete picture. If you can treat someone with dignity they'll learn to respect you and your opinion and that's when you have the chance to mold their views.
> 
> You have every right to think that it's stupid. Just remember that once you say it out loud you've most likely lost an opportunity to make a difference where it counts.


I suggest you read up on the derailing/silencing tactic called the tone argument (link here: focusses on racism but applies to any bigotry). People aren't going to stop oppressing homosexuals/lesbians if they just _asked_ more_ nicely_. Seriously.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

lirulin said:


> I suggest you read up on the derailing/silencing tactic called the tone argument (link here: focusses on racism but applies to any bigotry). People aren't going to stop oppressing homosexuals/lesbians if they just _asked_ more_ nicely_. Seriously.


I'm not saying you ask more nicely. In fact, I'm not saying you ask at all. The only way that people change with big issues like that is if they think it's their choice. By simply listening to them and not saying their argument is totally ridiculous you allow them to lower their guard. Then you have to build a friendship of respect and eventually your opinions will start becoming theirs. Yes, it takes time, but it's effective.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

cue5c said:


> I'm not saying you ask more nicely. In fact, I'm not saying you ask at all. The only way that people change with big issues like that is if they think it's their choice. By simply listening to them and not saying their argument is totally ridiculous you allow them to lower their guard. Then you have to build a friendship of respect and eventually your opinions will start becoming theirs. Yes, it takes time, but it's effective.


If you want to cosy up to bigots, then that is your choice. It would make me nauseous.

Frankly, their dehumanising treatment of gays and lesbians is far more disrespectful than anything I am saying. Tell_ those_ assholes to show respect and then _maybe_ I will take you seriously.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

lirulin said:


> If you want to cosy up to bigots, then that is your choice. It would make me nauseous.
> 
> Frankly, their dehumanising treatment of gays and lesbians is far more disrespectful than anything I am saying. Tell_ those_ assholes to show respect and then _maybe_ I will take you seriously.


Oh, you're absolutely not saying anything disrespectful! I'm not conveying myself very well, but I just like to make the point that we're all human. I can't rightfully call anyone a bigot, either, but that's just my mind working overtime. I feel like if the people who fed me and raised me told me that being gay was wrong, I'd believe 'em. That's why I like to take on an almost parental role with those people and help them out. Eventually they become a lot less hateful. Not to mention a lot of them are great people outside of their "beliefs". We're all just the sum of our influences after all. 

Of course, there are some people who are beyond hope, but they live in a very different world. :tongue:


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

cue5c said:


> Oh, you're absolutely not saying anything disrespectful! I'm not conveying myself very well, but I just like to make the point that we're all human. I can't rightfully call anyone a bigot, either, but that's just my mind working overtime. I feel like if the people who fed me and raised me told me that being gay was wrong, I'd believe 'em. That's why I like to take on an almost parental role with those people and help them out. Eventually they become a lot less hateful. Not to mention a lot of them are great people outside of their "beliefs". We're all just the sum of our influences after all.
> 
> Of course, there are some people who are beyond hope, but they live in a very different world. :tongue:


You may feel comfortable absolving them of responsibility but I hold that if you demean and dehumanise other humans, you are responsible for your actions and your words. And I am more interested in helping the people who are the _victims_ of oppression rather than helping the perpetrators. If you don't feel comfortable critiquing them for their homophobia, that's your issue and I can't and wouldn't make you, but please don't criticise me for opposing homophobia. I do not follow your strategies and your one-sided criticism benefits the oppressor in this situation.


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

lirulin said:


> You may feel comfortable absolving them of responsibility but I hold that if you demean and dehumanise other humans, you are responsible for your actions and your words. And I am more interested in helping the people who are the _victims_ of oppression rather than helping the perpetrators. If you don't feel comfortable critiquing them for their homophobia, that's your issue and I can't and wouldn't make you, but please don't criticise me for opposing homophobia. I do not follow your strategies and your one-sided criticism benefits the oppressor in this situation.


Yeah, sorry about that. Most people would agree with you and I, being the contrarian that I am, like to go with the less traveled route. What you're doing is absolutely necessary as hate only leads to violence. Helping in any way, shape or form is certainly admirable and I don't want to diminish that fact.


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## MissNobody (Aug 23, 2010)

The definition of 'homophobia' is this:

"An extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people."

Which pretty much answers the question. You can disagree with homosexuality and not be homophobic. Homophobic means you have "an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people."


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## Raingembow (Dec 19, 2012)

Disagreeing with homosexuality is not homophobia in my opinion but discrimination and prejudice against homosexuals is. I support gay rights (being pansexual myself) and I think that just because you don't like it doesn't you can mistreat someone because of it.


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## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

They're definitely two _very_ separate things. I'm Catholic, and I disagree with homosexuality in the same way and for the same reason that I disagree with premarital sex or birth control/contraceptives. Because I think sex is supposed to be between a married man and woman who are open to the possibility of having kids. Does that mean I hate anyone who does any those things? Of course not. That's like everybody. Does that mean I think they're bad people? No, I understand that they were raised differently than I was. Does that mean I think any of those things should be illegal? No, I don't. I don't think anybody should have to follow another religion's rules. I don't even think God cares that much, because nobody can be expected not to do things that they were never taught and never believed were wrong.

It's like how we're not supposed to eat meat on Friday's during Lent. If I was like "Oh man I know I'm not supposed to but I just really want a cheeseburger right now so I don't care," and I went and got myself a cheeseburger, that'd be wrong. If someone else, though, had never even heard that rule, it wouldn't be wrong because they wouldn't be going against their conscience. They'd just be eating a cheeseburger. God's not gonna send anybody to hell just for eating a stupid cheeseburger.

Maybe I don't count as "disagreeing with homosexuality," though, because I'm not opposed to Gay Marriage? In which case, I'd say that most of my family, immediate and extended, are opposed, but it's not because they're homophobic. It's because they believe marriage is a religious sacrament. They don't think same-sex couples should get married because that's just not what marriage is. Marriage is uniting a man and a woman before God. They have no problem with gay people or gay couples, they just think that marriage is and should remain a religious sacrament. The only reason I disagree with them is because pretty much everyone gets married, religious or not, so I don't think most people see it as _just_ a religious thing anymore. It's an everyone thing. Not everyone gets married in Churches now, and not everyone who gets married is Christian, so I don't see why every couple who gets married has to be heterosexual.

But you know don't tell my dad I said that or he'll have my head on a stick. JK but really.


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## chickydoda (Feb 12, 2010)

Wow, how many posts behind am I? Sorry guys, guess I got a bit scared of this thread...


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

Is it homophobia? Not on a technical level, no. Hatred =/= disagreement. With that said, I don't think it's anyone's place to "disagree" with homosexuality. Who people happen to be attracted to is their deal, no one elses.


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## NChSh (Jan 2, 2013)

I rarely, if ever, think in terms of absolutes. However, I would certainly consider that disagreeing with homosexuality implies, in some sense, homophobia. If you personally do not want to perform homosexual acts, there's nothing homophobic about that. I consider myself to be about 98% heterosexual, so it's very unlikely that I would engage in any homosexual behavior. But, if I disagreed with the sexual behavior of my gay friends, even mildly, then I feel I would be, at least mildly, homophobic. Disagreement means that one finds something wrong or distasteful, not just to one's self, but in general. I would eat practically anything, but I have no desire to ever eat balut. If I disagreed with others eating balut, then obviously I have a problem with it. My aversion to that food is now no longer just a matter of personal taste, but extends to others and is a judgement on their tastes. It would not be wrong to call me a balutphobic. Hell, I can't even say with 100% conviction that my personal disinterest in eating balut isn't, at least somewhat, balutphobic. If that doesn't quite "click," then consider it like any other phobia. Obviously, if I hated or feared spiders, I would be arachnophobic. What if I disagreed with spiders? To me, that actually seems stronger than simply fearing spiders. If I merely feared spiders, that's obviously irrational, and most would not consider it to be my fault. But _disagreeing_ with spiders would be like an attack on their very existence. If I actually believed in God, it would be like telling Her that I disapproved of part of Her creation. And that's just what anyone who disagrees with homosexuality is really doing. Got it? Probably not, but hopefully this will give those who think there's a difference something to think about.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Well, I usually don't think in absolutes either but homosexuality is one of the rare things I'm absolutely certain about, that one can't find a valid reason to say homosexuality is inherently wrong. If they think it is, then it's something other than reason. I wouldn't call it homophobia unless the person in question is an asshole about it. I don't see a point in labeling someone who's doing no harm aside from disagreeing with homosexuality. In general I abhor all the labels like "islamophobia" and "racist" and "bigot" that are floating around because they render labels meaningless. One should use them judiciously and without malicious intent.

As for gay people PDA'ing, I don't like that. But then I don't like straight people PDA'ing either.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I had a hit and run job on me by a sexually questioning person, we were in this group, all of the members, including myself were straight, everyone except him. He was a bisexual crossdresser. I said something wrong, and he just flipped out, and then forever after it sounded like I was insensitive to Gays. I've been reading the Rolling Stone commerative edition of Led Zeppelin, I have fawning issues of Rolling Stone stories on Led Zeppelin being the greatest band there was. What does this have to do with homophobia? Well, when it mattered Rolling Stone gave the worst criticism of Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin looked at this, said screw you Rolling Stone, people love our music, they're coming to our concerts, and ultimately they're the final judge, the people own Led Zeppelin, its as much an experience, as it is the music. Zeppelin won. John Bonham is on every list, listed as the greatest Rock drummer there was/is. And Rolling Stone belatedly acknowledged this when they said "Ultimately the argument Led Zeppelin makes is who owns the music? 

Coming back to homophobia. Not every LGBT member is going to agree. The person who judged me was extremely sensitive, he didn't want to hear my side of the story,nor did he want to school me. And the irony was I had witnessed some LGBT milestones of coming out, of roommates doing that when I was in high school, coming out of the closet, that I needed to know why that was important, and I could've used the guy who judged me intolerant to smooth out the thing that made him mad, but he didn't want to listen to me. So, the lesson learned here,watch who you are around. I was around idealistic progressives who just know everything on how not to offend...or at least that's what they strive for,and apparently I should've seen this coming, been on top of what makes Gay people angry, and it was all my fault. And it left a bitter pill in my mouth. There are certain groups where if you make a mistake it's like you farted and belched at the same time. Who owns the word homophobia, and how is it defined? That's what needs asking.

I like this board, this board has the patience and tolerance for people who occasionally drop the ball.


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## RainyAutumnTwilight (Sep 28, 2012)

I don't believe that homosexual sexual acts are morally correct, but I don't hate or fear people who are LGBTQ. I don't feel disgust or disdain towards them at all. I think such attitudes would be morally wrong as well and I believe that nobody should be bullied for their sexual orientation. I just don't agree with homosexuality as a practice.


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## Truth Advocate (Apr 14, 2014)

RainyAutumnTwilight said:


> I don't believe that homosexual sexual acts are morally correct, but I don't hate or fear people who are LGBTQ. I don't feel disgust or disdain towards them at all. I think such attitudes would be morally wrong as well and I believe that nobody should be bullied for their sexual orientation. I just don't agree with homosexuality as a practice.


Right on.


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## KokuroNya (Mar 19, 2012)

You can think something is wrong and still respect someone else's choice to do it. Like I think watching pornography is wrong, but I don't judge the people who do it. I simply won't do it myself.


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

Disagreeing with homosexuality is no different from disagreeing with heterosexuality. It's irrational and fear based. It's homophobic. 

Personally, I am not interested in gay sex, never have been, and I don't want to see it. That doesn't mean I "disagree" with it and think it is wrong. It's just DIFFERENT from me. And that's what people are so terrified of. That's the only reason to "disagree" with homosexuality. ****_phobia_.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Yes, I think it's homophobic. If you didn't have some negative gut reaction to it, why would you disagree with it? If not disgust, fear, anger, etc, then what could it possibly be?


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

ever since homosexuality have been accepted in society a lot of homos have been hitting on me in public and it disturbs me a lot . I'm not hateful about it but the truth is no body is born homosexual it's just choice or something which developed mentally which can be changed . my best friend is one but she doesn't hit on me so we are good


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

Amacey said:


> ever since homosexuality have been accepted in society a lot of homos have been hitting on me in public and it disturbs me a lot . I'm not hateful about it but the truth is no body is born homosexual it's just choice or something which developed mentally which can be changed . my best friend is one but she doesn't hit on me so we are good


So why did your friend choose to be gay?


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

Amine said:


> So why did your friend choose to be gay?


she says that she likes girls more


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Amacey said:


> but the truth is no body is born homosexual it's just choice or something which developed mentally which can be changed .


If thats true than that also must mean that no body is born straight and it's just a choice that can be changed. So, do you have the ability to change yourself into becoming a lesbian?


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

I believe a disagreement with homosexuality is irrational. I wouldn't go as far as to say everyone who disagrees with it is homophobic however, I'm sure some people disagree with it for religious reasons, and not because of some gut reaction, or some aversion or fear.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I don't view the term homophobia to a valid one. It's not a phobia, it's not like being afraid of spiders. It's just dislike, probably fueled by some traditional view.


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> If thats true than that also must mean that no body is born straight and it's just a choice that can be changed. So, do you have the ability to change yourself into becoming a lesbian?


heterosexuality is an other story . we are born heterosexual that nature can't change but the mind does get tricked into being attracted to the same gender but the organs function remains so no matter what sexuality people choose heterosexuality would remain as the real nature of the person


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Amacey said:


> heterosexuality is an other story . we are born heterosexual that nature can't change but the mind does get tricked into being attracted to the same gender but the organs function remains so no matter what sexuality people choose heterosexuality would remain as the real nature of the person


How do you explain homosexuality in nature, then?


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> How do you explain homosexuality in nature, then?


the answer is already there


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

Amacey said:


> she says that she likes girls more


Why did she choose to like girls more?


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

Amine said:


> Why did she choose to like girls more?


I don't know she doesn't like to talk about that much


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Homophobic by definition means "afraid of homosexuals", so no, simply disagreeing with it could in no way mean someone is homophobic.

I will say that I'm strongly opposed to the idea that any kind of safe, consensual sex between any two mature individuals is morally wrong. I think that mindset is very outdated, but as long as people keep any opinions they have against homosexuals to themselves when around homosexuals, I see no problem with having them (even if I do disagree).


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## Agelastos (Jun 1, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I don't view the term homophobia to a valid one. It's not a phobia, it's not like being afraid of spiders. It's just dislike, probably fueled by some traditional view.





Probably said:


> Homophobic by definition means "afraid of homosexuals", so no, simply disagreeing with it could in no way mean someone is homophobic.


It [-phobia] doesn't have to mean 'fear'. 
It is also antonymic of the suffix -philia (love/affinity/preference). So, in certain contexts, it can be used to mean 'hate' or 'aversion'.


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## Sempiturtle (Jun 3, 2014)

Agelastos said:


> It [-phobia] doesn't have to mean 'fear'.
> It is also antonymic of the suffix -philia (love/affinity/preference). So, in certain contexts, it can be used to mean 'hate' or 'aversion'.


Agreed. In the past I used to be in fact disgusted at myself because I found myself being attracted to males more than females. I started displaying a hateful attitude to other homosexuals before I came out myself.


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## Agelastos (Jun 1, 2014)

Sempiturtle said:


> Agreed. In the past I used to be in fact disgusted at myself because I found myself being attracted to males more than females. I started displaying a hateful attitude to other homosexuals before I came out myself.


I bet being an ISTJ didn't help matters.


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## Sempiturtle (Jun 3, 2014)

Agelastos said:


> I bet being an ISTJ didn't help matters.


What does that have to do with anything?


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## Agelastos (Jun 1, 2014)

Sempiturtle said:


> What does that have to do with anything?


Nothing, really. Just that ISTJs tend to be rather traditionalistic. :happy:


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## Sempiturtle (Jun 3, 2014)

Agelastos said:


> Nothing, really. Just that ISTJs tend to be rather traditionalistic. :happy:


.. Right. Yeah. I guess.


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

Amacey said:


> I don't know she doesn't like to talk about that much


Do you actively make a choice not to be romantic with girls?


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

Amine said:


> Do you actively make a choice not to be romantic with girls?


I have no desire at all to be with any girl , stop trying to use my own words against me


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Amacey said:


> I have no desire at all to be with any girl , stop trying to use my own words against me


Exactly. And she likely has no desire at all to be a guy. Not everyone is wired the same as you.


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## Amacey (Mar 1, 2014)

seriously are you calling weird for being straight ?


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