# Things that annoy me in typology communities



## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Ok, here is a list of things that usually annoy me... things that I find very often around typology communities. (particularly, in the enneagram ones)
> 
> *1. Glorification of ''cool types'' *
> 
> Usually, the so called ''cool'' types are: id types (in particular type 8(w7)), sx first, the 4-x-8 archeatypes and at times type 4 (specially 4w5).


Not sure which types I think are cool, but I do see a lot of SX reads, which annoys me... i hate that the new folks usually view it as related to sex in some ways (and then they all think, "Oh, that's me, I like sex!"), but it's not really that at all, obviously.

It's also a painful variant to be, especially if you're an sx/sp type or some kind of introverted sx... I typically crave to know someone's secrets, that level of intimacy, but I'm also built in a way where I don't find it easy to connect to GET to that level and also sometimes get anxious opening myself up that much. the vulnerability and need to "intrude/deep connect" can feel disturbing sometimes. It's not all it's cracked up to be and nothing to aspire to more than any other variant.



> *2. Watching the Forer effect going on *


Yeah, Forer is a crackup. I see it most show up with tarot reads and horoscopes, but it does permeate type sites as well.

Drives me batty too, when people "play into it." Although you might be being a little harsh here... sometimes people DO have those inclinations but don't feel like they are allowed to expose them in public. So the type read is simply releasing something that IS there versus the insinuation that they are merely pretending to be something they actually are not. When people feel liberated to be themselves, you will see behavior change.

But I think over time it settles down. It's part of a growth process. It's not just with type. People become proud of who they are, embrace it, tend to overdo it, and eventually they settle in as they realize they are MORE than just what they were accepting about themselves. 




> *3. Using the enneagram to explain everything *
> 
> People who *continually *do that are indeed stuck in this system. They start seeing everything through the eyes of the enneagram.. and therefore they will use it to explain things that aren't related to it.


Yeah. Drives me bugnuts. I can't even bring up going grocery shopping without someone trying to explain purchasing decisions and product choice by their E type. Uggh. Please! Stop the madness! I also think face typing is silly. 



> *4. People forget the purpose of the enneagram
> *
> The enneagram was developed so that people would become aware of fixed behavior/compulsions that continually interfere in their life (and so that eventually you can work on them). In other words, the purpose of it is to overcome your fixed behavior... and not to get stuck _in_ it.


　
Yes, Enneagram is a unique system in that it does provide examples and pathways of incline and decline -- patterns for growth for each particular type. One might not necessarily agree with that path as described, but at least the system itself is designed to encourage growth. Some type systems are far more static, as you have noted.



> *5. Typism towards ''uncool types'' *
> 
> The so called ''uncool'' types: Superego types (in particular phobic 6s), Social firsts, Type 9 (specially 9w1).


Yeah, I think SJs in the MBTI and 6's get a bum rap. Yes, it's true maybe I don't have as much in common myself with such types, but I can still see value in them, as I do in every type. I get soooo tired seeing someone diss on a type just because it doesn't appeal to them personally. I prefer, if we criticize people, to criticize them for their CHOICES in life and not because of who they are. If they make terrible choices, then sure, comment on that; but judging someone for their type? That just speaks badly on the critic.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

I _knew _I was uncool. I just _knew _it! 

Now I have proof and I can exaggerate my uncoolness! :tongue:


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Word Dispenser said:


> I _knew _I was uncool. I just _knew _it!
> 
> Now I have proof and I can exaggerate my uncoolness! :tongue:


You can be the cool uncool type, where you revel in how uncool you are thus making you cool because you don't care to be the cool kind of cool.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Everyone's a freaking "introverted 459."
That or 145 or 458. Just 45x in general.

_You're not that special._


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

To be honest, while I get that there are idealized types in typology systems, giving people shit for typing as those types and assuming that they are undergoing some kind of "special snowflake" syndrome and that they are all mistyped only reinforces the notion of idealizing types. By saying that so many people can't be type x because it's idealized, you're putting those types on a pedestal by implying that individuals are not deserving of having a certain label.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Ananael said:


> To be honest, while I get that there are idealized types in typology systems, giving people shit for typing as those types and assuming that they are undergoing some kind of "special snowflake" syndrome and that they are all mistyped only reinforces the notion of idealizing types. By saying that so many people can't be type x because it's idealized, you're putting those types on a pedestal by implying that individuals are not deserving of having a certain label.


I don't know if you meant it this way, but this reads to me like you're saying, "If you ignore the problem, it'll go away." Which is rarely the case; a problem tends to get more pronounced as time goes on. A good example would be the misconceptions about type 6: PerC members have actively denounced the stereotypes and have mostly succeeded. Go to a forum like EIDB and you'll see massive misconceptions about 6s everywhere, because they didn't have the same thing going on, they just perpetuate the same wrong ideas.

While I do think "idealization" is a bit of a misnomer and "misunderstanding" would fit more--no, not every bookworm is a 5, not every angsty teen is a 4, etc.--I think it's more than fair to point out that such mistypings happen on a large scale. This raises awareness, which lets others consider they may be mistyped rather than them just blindly accepting their supposed (self-)typing.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> I don't know if you meant it this way, but this reads to me like you're saying, "If you ignore the problem, it'll go away." Which is rarely the case; a problem tends to get more pronounced as time goes on. A good example would be the misconceptions about type 6: PerC members have actively denounced the stereotypes and have mostly succeeded. Go to a forum like EIDB and you'll see massive misconceptions about 6s everywhere, because they didn't have the same thing going on, they just perpetuate the same wrong ideas.


You completely missed the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying that ignoring the problem will make it go away. I meant that I've seen many users on the forum claim that all people who identify with certain tritypes/core types/instinctual variants are mistypes that want to see themselves in a certain way and implying that certain people are "not worthy" of certain labels rather than looking at how well they seem to carry the motivations/neuroses associated with said types. The whole concept of rarity combined with oversimplification and misunderstanding of the depth of enneagram as a system are honestly what drive the "idealization" of certain types. People also forget that internet forums are not representative of the general population, and that there are some setbacks to statistical averaging. 



> While I do think "idealization" is a bit of a misnomer and "misunderstanding" would fit more--no, not every bookworm is a 5, not every angsty teen is a 4, not every "rebel" is an 8--I think it's more than fair to point out that such mistypings happen on a large scale. This raises awareness, which lets others consider they may be mistyped rather than them just blindly accepting their supposed (self-)typing.


Yes, I completely understand that. But making sweeping generalizations based on notions held about people who identify under certain labels does not help at all. Yes, mistypes happen. Yes, some more than others. But I think rather than aggressively and passive aggressively judging people based on the labels they choose does not solve the problem. What people need is education about the motivations that go into the types rather than having others making sweeping statements about some character flaw they have.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Ananael said:


> But I think rather than aggressively and passive aggressively judging people based on the labels they choose does not solve the problem.


I think it's more that people naturally exaggerate in casual conversation. It's common to say "everyone" when one means "the majority." I know I don't think _every_ 459 is mistyped even though I strongly implied such, but it does annoy me that it's such a frequent mistyping.



> People also forget that internet forums are not representative of the general population, and that there are some setbacks to statistical averaging.


Eh, I don't think this is particularly good reasoning, personally. Not for the Enneagram, at least. I can see why there would be less id types on the internet, and maybe fewer 2s, but otherwise I think it would be a similar distribution to offline because type doesn't determine factors such as interests or sociability.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> I think it's more that people naturally exaggerate in casual conversation. It's common to say "everyone" when one means "the majority." I know I don't think _every_ 459 is mistyped even though I strongly implied such, but it does annoy me that it's such a frequent mistyping.


Exaggeration or not, pissing and moaning about mistypes does not solve the problem. 




> Eh, I don't think this is particularly good reasoning, personally. Not for the Enneagram, at least. I can see why there would be less id types on the internet, and maybe fewer 2s, but otherwise I think it would be a similar distribution to offline because type doesn't determine factors such as interests or sociability.


The perceived rarity of types comes from test results compiled by authorities who make the tests (the same goes for MBTI type percentages). Just because the test is virtually available to anyone with internet access and/or knowledge/awareness about enneagram, does not mean that the people taking the test come a variety of different walks of life. Also, sometimes tests are not always reliable in giving people accurate typings, which is probably a result of the simplification of the responses done. And since these tests involve self-reporting, people may put down things that they'd like to think about themselves rather than how they may be perceived by others. 

I'm not saying that type determines interests, I'm just saying that the distribution of types/tritypes/types in other typology systems online may not be entirely reflective of the societal distribution _because_ of the interests that people have or a lack of awareness about typology systems.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Paradigm_, @_Ananael_

The rare types/common types deal has been addressed to death and beyond, guys. If anyone still buys into this shit, they're the dumbass. Para, I know you know this and that your point wasn't about the purported 'rare' types. But, I am going to address it all anyway.

And, yes, some mistypes are total idiots. There I said it. They go around trying to establish whatever type they think they are by playing up attributes and looking like walking caricatures barfing garbage about their 'sadistic' 'lusty' 'sociopathic' or what have you selves, at times on unrelated threads. Some will stir shit, get defensive, passive aggressively groan, bitch and moan about the plight of the poor ol' 'mistype' all over spam and other places for no real reason besides butthurt over being typed at something they disagreed with. That is especially laughable. I mean...you really must not have much of a life if you have to go around making disgruntled ass comments over this. In fact, I have done a lot of work on dispelling negative stereotyping of types ..and even more work on dispelling the 'rare' types myth. 

I have had my privacy violated and dealt with all kinds of shit all over having typed at a 'rare' type, including having a thread detailing sensitive details of abuse taken apart on someone else's thread, when I was officially retired from the forum. I later discovered that certain lunatics wanted to *sticky* that typing thread just to 'humiliate' me.... yes..for typing at a 'rare' type and not silently putting up with it when I was pathologized, called a liar and told I was exaggerating details to come across as a certain 'rare' type - 8. So, having dealt with THAT level of disrespect, I decided to address a lot of misinformation, particularly the rare types garbage, when I returned to the forum. And even then, I have a sense of humour about these things. Despite my history with this, far worse than anyone else can claim here in recent times because forum attitudes have changed so much, I still sit back and laugh at some of the mistyping stuff, including my own.

Others will lose their shit right on typing threads when they're personal typing myth-making isn't passively affirmed by everyone else; some will downright hit typers below the belt without provocation (every single such typee in the recent past has been such a consummate cretin that they've literally ended up banned later on for their idiocy for related reasons). So, if they catch flack for acting like morons (mistyping not even being at the crux of it), they're asking for it. 

Simple as that. 

Most mistypes are on a sincere and personal journey. These are not the kinds of mistypes that come under fire, fmp. Most people will arrive at their type once they're presented with quality material and actually introspect. Many people will look back and laugh at their own mistyping at whatever type/tritype ('rare or not'), and we need to have a fuckin sense of humour about this instead of jumping in and crying wolf. And, it can't be denied that stereotyping and misinformation can play into typing at triple withdrawn/triple reactive etc. The Fauvres' buzzword laden descriptions contribute to this, and so does the common correlation of Introversion with Enneagram 'withdrawn' type, Te dominance or whatever with Id types etc. The only thing that'll solve the so-called problem is sharing correct information. Rest assured it'll never go away completely, because new people are always joining and many are still pretty ignorant. 

There's nothing intrinsically off with saying what you find annoying about certain kinds of mistypes, especially on a thread that is specifically asking for what you find problematic in typology communities. Right?


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Ananael said:


> Exaggeration or not, pissing and moaning about mistypes does not solve the problem.


Well, no, that's why I don't go around complaining on random threads about various mistypes. On a thread about typology misconceptions, it's generally acceptable to point these things out.



> The perceived rarity of types comes from test results compiled by authorities who make the tests (the same goes for MBTI type percentages). Just because the test is virtually available to anyone with internet access and/or knowledge/awareness about enneagram, does not mean that the people taking the test come a variety of different walks of life. Also, sometimes tests are not always reliable in giving people accurate typings, which is probably a result of the simplification of the responses done. And since these tests involve self-reporting, people may put down things that they'd like to think about themselves rather than how they may be perceived by others.


I don't see why the "authorities" should be believed, nor why tests should be used as proof for that misconception. Most people should realize that method is going to be questionable at best and any distribution shown is probably going to be very skewed. 

Also, I was talking about the internet as a whole, not necessarily typology communities. Though I don't really believe in the idea that the typology community distribution is going to be much different when compared any other community, assuming everyone is correctly typed.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Most mistypes are on a sincere and personal journey. These are not the kinds of mistypes that come under fire, fmp. *Most people will arrive at their type once they're presented with quality material and actually introspect.* Many people will look back and laugh at their own mistyping at whatever type/tritype ('rare or not'), and we need to have a fuckin sense of humour about this instead of jumping in and crying wolf. And, it can't be denied that stereotyping and misinformation can play into typing at triple withdrawn/triple reactive etc. The Fauvres' buzzword laden descriptions contribute to this, and so does the common correlation of Introversion with Enneagram 'withdrawn' type, Te dominance or whatever with Id types etc. _*The only thing that'll solve the so-called problem is sharing correct information.*_ Rest assured it'll never go away completely, because new people are always joining and many are still pretty ignorant.


The bolded is what I've been trying to get at. 



> There's nothing intrinsically off with saying what you find annoying about certain kinds of mistypes, especially on a thread that is specifically asking for what you find problematic in typology communities. Right?


No, but there is nothing off with saying that an annoyance with certain mistypes is reflective of the general biases that exist either.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Ananael said:


> The bolded is what I've been trying to get at.


You're also trying to get at saying that there's something not quite right about saying certain types of mistypes are annoying, on a thread that is explicitly asking for this information based on people's own views and experiences. You called it irrelevant to solving the problem. The thread isn't asking how to solve the problem. It's asking "what do you find problematic?" So, your critique is not pertinent in that regard. Anyone is free to talk about what they disagree with or find annoying. In general, sure you have a point, and it ain't new. The point you bolded is no radical assertion. Most people (reasonable and with more than half a brain) would and do agree. That wasn't contentious, to begin with, even on this thread.





> No, but there is nothing off with saying that an annoyance with certain mistypes is reflective of the general biases that exist either.


Well now you're saying you accept that there's nothing off with sharing what you find personally problematic or annoying about certain mistypes in typology 'communities'. Sure.

General biases will always exist. The 'rare' type myth, however, is not as pervasive as you seem to be making out to be.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> You're also trying to get at saying that there's something not quite right about saying certain types of mistypes are annoying, on a thread that is explicitly asking for this information *based on people's own views and experiences.*


Perhaps I'm not conveying myself well enough, but from my perspective, when people say things like that it only reinforces the general mindset that seems to be one cause of some of the perceived problems in typology communities. And the only reason that the whole "solving the problem" critique came out was because Paradigm assumed that I suggested that we "ignore a problem so that it will go away."


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Ananael said:


> Perhaps I'm not conveying myself well enough, but from my perspective, when people say things like that it only reinforces the general mindset that seems to be one cause of some of the perceived problems in typology communities.


I disagree with your perspective, but you certainly have every right to hold said perspective. I don't find the comment similarly detrimental (or detrimental at all) and that's that.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Ananael said:


> And the only reason that the whole "solving the problem" critique came out was because Paradigm assumed that I suggested that we "ignore a problem so that it will go away."


Please stop twisting my intentions. I clearly said you _may have meant otherwise_, said what I thought you meant, and wrote a full post based on that idea. I did not _assume_ anything, but I'll let you have the last word if it's so important to you.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Why are 4's considered "cool", exactly?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Just...chill.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Wellsy said:


> You can be the cool uncool type, where you revel in how uncool you are thus making you cool because you don't care to be the cool kind of cool.


I must be the confused kind of unconfused confused sort, then. :kitteh:

What @Jennywocky, @Ananael and @Cosmic Orgasm ( I almost called you Boss! :blushed: LOL) said.


I am sick to death of people being hounded in the Enneagram and other typology forums by some anal, self-righteous, myopic and pushy types. I am fine with other people questioning my type; just so long as they respect that my decision to disagree with their opinions, is valid. 



kaleidoscope said:


> (Here's hoping people don't derail the thread too much..)


Well, one can always dream . . . =XD


I just hope and pray that @Animal will make an appearance in this thread at some point; as she has this almost instinctively harmonizing effect on this subforum.


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## lilimarleen (Oct 17, 2013)

Paradigm said:


> Everyone's a freaking "introverted 459."
> That or 145 or 458. Just 45x in general.
> 
> _You're not that special._


I am special.

I _AM_ SPECIAL!!!!!! :shocked::angry: How _dare _you insult me this way.

By the way, OP... I might have misunderstood you, but do you really think that 4s who talk about depression a lot are just playing into the image of a 4? I don't think you should doubt something like that so easily. It's separate from personality type stuff... maybe they just talk about it more because 4s sometimes like to wear their terrible, awful, unbearable (hee hee) suffering like a badge. But that doesn't mean they haven't suffered!


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Except that the inferiority/superiority, putting yourself down/glorifying yourself outlined here is a constant and subtle fluctuation, and depends highly on comparison with others. I feel superior when I look at people around me and notice how mundane and common they are for example. I pay attention to how they are caught up in trivial things whereas I have the deep thoughts and pondering about life, the universe and everything xD And this fluctuation is *precisely *due to the 4's tendency to notice what they are lacking, and that's why they _never _remain in a state of superiority for too long.


The general public barely exists to me. There are sheep, and then there are the people who stand out. The ones who stand out get to be mentioned as friends or allies, and the real competition gets to be compared to me trait by trait whereas the others are just sheep. That is, if you read my private writings. Usually my writings are very self-absorbed. I'm not thinking about how others are caught up in trivial things because even that is too trivial. They're already sectioned off as sheep, non-existant and thus not worth pondering. The most mention they'll get in my diary is "they" or "them" or "everyone else." I don't waste my brain space on it any more than that. They tortured me all my life and fucked the world up with their ignorant, mindless groupthink, so they don't exist to me. As long as I'm not one of them, I deserve to exist.




> The confidence is never in itself there. 4s are image types, what they struggle most with is seeing their own value and worth. In this thread I made, you'll notice how I (and a lot of 4s judging from their responses) have constructed ideal selves simply to make up for the sense of inner lack. This is the trouble with online descriptions, in that they can often be interpreted differently than intended.


I disagree on the point that 4s can't be confident. I think any type can be confident or unconfident, if we are talking about real confidence that is earned over a lifetime.

But, I do see my own worth, generally. This is, if I look at it objectively. If I just allow myself to sink into my feelings like I do in art and diaries, I then devolve into a different sense of my worth. "Worthless," "nothing," "nobody," "nothing to offer," "falling prey to the same traps as everyone else," "cruel" "Beast." "waste." "WEAK." Weak, weak weak - all the time. _Not strong enough._ Words I use to describe myself in private are different than what I am willing to reveal to the world outside of an art expression.

Sub-human and super-human at once; at best. Or "I know I am better than this." "I can do better." "I can be more than this." "I just have to try harder."

My diaries tend to be a deep exploration of my romanticism vs. my lust, in all its glamor and ugliness. The weakness and the strength. The beauty and the grit. Lust.. how I conquer and hurt others, how it consumes me, how I am weak. And how I am always pining away over someone in silence.. because I am _weak_. Too weak to tell him how I feel, knowing I'll be rejected; which I certainly will, unless I become better; unless I keep striving; unless I am more ideal, better than the other women who like him, better than myself, better than him. Which I can never be. So I conquer others, as I call it in my diary, "feed on fresh flesh instead." Since my past romance and dreams have been robbed from me, along with my innocence, and now it's too late for me; and my current obsession of years and years doesn't love me. WEAK.

This is a sum-up of what my diary content looks like at any given time. That, combined with wild and endless pondering about my books, music, and psychological/philosophical thoughts regarding my work. What my characters mean to me, how a philosophy is revealed in me, etc. Plans for how I will enact this. Ideas. Scenes.



> It's not like the 4 will wake up someday going FUCK YES, I AM AWESOME, WATCH ME ROAR and the very next day hibernating in bed. It's not that huge of a discrepancy.


Even within my own diary, my moods fluctuate. I wouldn't say it's extremes overnight, but if you look at two diary entries back to back, there can be discrepancies due to mood, events, physical state, etc. When I'm in love or obsessed with someone, my entire mood and view of myself can be more dependent on that contact than I want to admit. For instance, if he didn't call me back that day, my diary will look very different than if he did.

Two years ago my perc entries, by contrast, would look exactly the same. Because I wasn't comfortable yet on PerC to 'be me.'

Now, my perc entries change with my moods. I'm putting some aspects of 'diary' in public, and enjoying the scrutiny, and feeling more shameless and honest because I am doing so. Still I can't be entirely 'diary-like' and honest for the sheer reason that I'd worry about "him" (whoever he is at the time) discovering my perc profile and feeling like I shared something that should be private. Whereas in my diary, no holds barred. My hatred of the competition, specific comparisons, where I went wrong, why he loves her and not me, how I need to change, but I never will; will all be laid out there. On perc, "I am a tornado, not a wife." In my diary: I am reckless, undependable, weak; not strong enough to be a wife, and his ideal girlfriend/lover/wife/crush is a 'wife' that I will never be. But she lacks my creativity. But I lack her class. But she lacks my passion. But I lack her consistency. I could not be creative and passionate and also be classy and consistent. But what is passion and creativity worth, anyway? IT's worthless. It keeps me isolated, doesn't make me any money, doesn't bring me real lasting love. But it's all that I am, all that I will ever be. Outside of that, I am worthless, useless, just like the rest. I might as well just be one of the sheep, in some plastic job with a picket fence. No, that is not me. I have to be me. I cannot be a good, classy person. Even it if means he won't love me. I can't do it so why even bother? Even if I strive to be better, I'll still have a chronic illness, and nobody could possibly love someone with a chronic illness. I'm too much of a burden, so I'm better off just living in my fantasies. Etc.

But, I'd rather tell PerC, or friends, "I'm a tornado, not a wife." That is the conclusion I reached, that's my self-image, that's the only thing worth saying. Spare the public from the weak, self-absorbed rant. My self-image then sounds so confident. _I'm a tornado, not a wife._ Take it or leave it. Sounds so delightfully self-assured, strong. And it is not dishonest. But so much weakness and pain and strife went into that conclusion, that self-image. So much weakness backed up what ended up being a powerful statement.



> To be clear, I highly identify with the little snippet you quoted, but just not in how you interpreted it. ^^


 
To speak for myself (enneagram aside) I tend to give myself less credit than I deserve, but at the times when I'm feeling worst, I can also get bloated and fantastical about myself - while still hating myself. This is a hard thing to explain without actually experiencing it. Some of my closer friends from PerC have seen a more vulnerable side of me over skype, but still not all of it. In my life, I stay very isolated and explore it in art. Boyfriends have seen me more bare than others, but I also push them away to a large degree to have most of my time to myself. I have to work through my feelings, the problems, and this way I can understand myself, know myself well, and be honest about who I am. But I need an inordinate amount of time to myself toward this end. To express my 'fragile, weak, pathetic, crude, selfish' traits where they belong. To see them mirrored. This way I can understand them, and then, I can _become_ them and accept myself. 

If I isolated the issue of 'bloated self image' and my boasting on PerC when I was down, I'd probably call it 7w6, but it doesn't exist as an isolated behavior, and there was more going on, on the back end.

First of all, I felt 'rawr' because I had recently survived a lot of hardship and fought the good fight. I chose to focus on that aspect of myself while exploring my weaker feelings in private.

I would absolutely love to write it off as 7w6 narcissism or bloating because that would be more noble and adorable, and then I could say it was real, and my confidence / bloating was just narcissism and "aww Animal can't help it because she's a 7" and all would be acceptable and the kind of person I'd want people to think that I am. But the sad truth is that I can't see it as anything other than shame & image issues at the moment. Issues I am very, very, very uncomfortable with. It doesn't mean I'm intentionally dishonest - that, I am not. But there are issues around my portrayal of myself vs what I was actually going through and feeling at the time, and the side of me that I explored and expressed in private. Which is why I call it shame and image issues. I strive to become my ideal self, to embody it. To be a symbol of myself. My ideal self is not some perfect, lovable image. It is, rather, someone COMPLETELY honest. That is my ideal. Someone honest, expressive, who can lay herself bare for the world, without any shame.

I strive to know who I am, dig up all the demons and embody even those, very honestly. But I have to understand them first, to incorporate them into my idea of who I am, my self-image, before I come to symbolize and embrace them for public consumption. That's the irony. Through striving to be honest, to embody my own honesty, I become dishonest. Because you can't be honest while embodying honesty, you just have to _be_ honest. And my honest, bare self is too twisted, too cold, too crude, too mean, too selfish; or conversely, too weak, too selfless, too fragile, too vulnerable. So I try to change these things from within so that I can be honest. To release my feelings in my work so that I can be stronger, wilder, more fierce, more tough, more pragmatic, more caring, more open-hearted. Then my portrayal of myself could be honest. But right now, at any given time, it is not the whole picture. Because there are parts of myself I have explored in depth and can self-disclose in a very honest way, and then others I still need to work through, which I cannot lay bare. For example, my shame. How can I lay it bare if I don't understand it? If I have shame, I can't shamelessly portray myself honestly. So can I portray the shame? Should that be part of my self-image? If I accept that and embrace it, it will become part of my self-image, but then is that more honest than I was before, if it's still an embodiment of self?

Do you see how complicated this is?

Maybe once I've had more time to work through this, I'll see things differently in terms of enneagram. But the important part is, I'm seeing myself more clearly. I do think that I was always aware of things in myself, but my withdrawing to face the 'shameful things,' to dig them up and express them and navigate them thoroughly, to strive to mirror them honestly, to dedicate my whole life's passion and purpose to mirroring and expressing these feelings, and yet_ not_ expressing them straight up to other people, was so automatic that I didn't even recognize it as shame.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Typing is not an intellectual activity. You cannot correctly assess what first "broke someone" without knowing them intimately, all you can do is read what is wrong with them now. You can sometimes guess based on stereotypes. People are way more complex than any numbering system. If you want to actually help each other, share stories, don't judge and talk through what you need to heal. @Flatlander is really good at that, with his pointy razor sharp biting questions that get through your ice and glass and to your sore spots. 

I'm not alerting anyone, you're all big girls and can see there is a fresh post.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_kaleidoscope_ OMG I edited that post so many times. LOL. Thank you for making me think 

I have not gotten my thoughts about the narcissism/ bloating of myself on perc/ and my accompanying thoughts regarding typology into words before, so thank you for the push. Whether we agree on 'my typing' or not, or what a type 'means,' it is nice to be challenged enough to actually get some things into words, so this helped my pondering.

I'm not sure when you thanked the post, I had written this 'thank you' as part of the post before and then erased it because it was too long. But I kept editing because some of this is important and needed to be said, just for my own purposes & exploration.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

1) people being butthurt pussies when an alternative typing for them is suggested
2) those annoying peeps who pop up periodically saying "typology is no more scientifically valid than astrology". to which the obvious reply is "ok, then _why are you here_?"



LeoCat said:


> What bothers me is people thinking they know someone from a short conversation or their posts. No, they know a facet of their lives. That does not give them any right whatsoever to tell them what number or alphabet arrangement they are or aren't.


this was obviously directed at me, but that's not the point :laughing:
the reason I'm quoting this is because it leads me to point 3.
3) people tend to assume that every negative trait is routed in insecurity, when there are, in fact, many root causes of destructive behavior.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Unpopular opinion: if you properly know what to look for, you can come up with an opinion of a person's type. You have a right to laugh it off if you either highly disagree or feel that doing that is against your dogma.

I think some people just don't like the idea that it is relatively easy to see through them. This place kind of softened my attitude on it lol.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Kabosu said:


> Unpopular opinion: if you properly know what to look for, you can come up with an opinion of a person's type. You have a right to laugh it off if you either highly disagree or feel that doing that is against your dogma.
> *I think some people just don't like the idea that it is relatively easy to see through them.* This place kind of softened my attitude on it lol.


yes! well said mate


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Kabosu said:


> Unpopular opinion: if you properly know what to look for, you can come up with an opinion of a person's type. You have a right to laugh it off if you either highly disagree or feel that doing that is against your dogma.
> 
> I think some people just don't like the idea that it is relatively easy to see through them. This place kind of softened my attitude on it lol.


People come up with opinions about other people's types all the time. The question is, do you have to tell them? The answer is complicated. Even ethically speaking. Because there is the problem of hurting someone's feelings needlessly vs. watching them spread misinformation or delude themselves and not saying anything. THere is also another option: Figure out/ notice someone's type, know that they are mistyped, and wait for them to put up a typing thread or ask for your input. 

In your social circle IRL, do you walk up to aquaintances and tell them things about themselves that they don't want to hear and didnt ask about? It's one thing to tell a friend something you've noticed about them; someone who trusts you. They might not want to hear it, but they trust that whether they agree with your opinion or not, you're saying it with their best interest in mind. With someone you barely know, most people don't just walk up and start telling them about what their behaviors are like, and their intuitive reads on this person. Why? Because that will register as "this person doesn't even know me or care about me and this is none of his business" and the observation won't get through to them anyway. It will just cause them to feel bad about themselves and dislike you. 

Is it because people are too sensitive, too reactive, take it too personally? Sure. People are human and have feelings about who they are, or anything that they believe might define any aspect of who they are or how people see them. Call them fragile, weak, sensitive - but this same sensitivity is something you will love in another person when you are down.

So ask yourself - why are you telling them? Is it worth your time to have this argument? If you ask yourself why you're doing it, then in most situations you _will_ end up acting compassionately. If you are doing it to entertain yourself, that's fine too, but just be aware of what you're doing. I'm not above laughing and enjoying it when someone calls out a blatant mistype. But what is it doing for you? At the end of the day, you're going to walk away from the forum and go back to your life. And then the only person you have to live with from the forum is yourself. You have to sleep, wake, work, breathe.. knowing how you treated others. So that is what will impact your own life much more than the other person. Which is why, asking yourself why you are making someone uncomfortable and unhappy, and whether it's worth it, can go a long way.


To speak for myself, I'm highly empathetic, and someone else's feelings can affect my own. So I am not going to bother pushing people out of their comfort zone unless they are worth it. I am far too selfish to burden myself with the responsibility of sharing my 'unwelcome observations' with strangers. For friends, I'll lay myself on the line. I am highly intuitive but my openness about observations needs to be earned. I'll talk about myself openly with many people, but revealing my thoughts about _you_ means I trust you. My observations are reserved for those who I trust to hold their own, and not to twist my attempt to help them into another problem that I have to deal with. People have tried to get revenge or held grudges or gossiped because of things I have noticed about them - and while that bullshit can't touch me, it's still annoying. I have enough problems.

If I draw negative attention to myself, let it be because of who I am rather than what I say to people about themselves. Yup, I'm a diva. Negative attention because I'm interesting, bold, different, unruly and opinionated is exhilarating; negative attention because I slighted _you_ is annoying. Spotlight on _me_, please, thank you.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 1) people being butthurt pussies when an alternative typing for them is suggested
> 2) those annoying peeps who pop up periodically saying "typology is no more scientifically valid than astrology". to which the obvious reply is "ok, then _why are you here_?"
> 
> 
> ...


No man, wasn't directed at you either. Some people are easy to see through online and some never show certain aspects of themselves, hiding it even from their families. 

I just think self discovery should be encouraged and all aspects explored instead of people assuming based on their purview of someones soul. It can be damaging to take someone with scarcely any identity and try to fit them in a mold of your making. "Your" being every person on the internet. " 

That has nothing to do with "offenses" and everything to do with suggestions to not be prideful and being open to all possibilities. Most people will contradict themselves all over the place, its human nature. If you don't you are likely very healthy or very good at hiding who you are. 

Its called an opinion. Anyone who takes umbrage, well examine yourselves I guess. 

You were quite right in thinking 7 for me. I come off very much like a seven/eight in my writing on here.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)




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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

When you assume you know someone. You miss the opportunity to ACTUALLY know all of them. Because they will be so conflicted by your opinions and need for them to prove themselves, they will consider it not worth the effort or potential harm to share their true selves at all. 

Its always better to assume you know maybe 10 percent of a person, if that. Being open to all possibilities no matter how crazy. To trust them when they try to show you who they are, without skepticism and judgement. 

I am speaking from many experiences not just here.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@LeoCat
oh, so you were talking more specifically about phallic narcissism (in that case, yeah, mos def not me)

I must admit, I was surprised at how gentle you were talking to you via phone. you sounded a lot less 7w8-ish there


also, @Animal I don't see a drop of insecurity in you


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_LeoCat_
> oh, so you were talking more specifically about phallic narcissism (in that case, yeah, mos def not me)
> 
> I must admit, I was surprised at how gentle you were talking to you via phone. you sounded a lot less 7w8-ish there



I can be quite the narcissist, yes I am gentle. I love peoples stories, I like them to show me who they are in every way. One thing I learned teaching art is you don't ask a child "what's that!" You say "tell me all about this, how cool!" 

Its a good way to approach people in life, in general. When theres no judgement, people can begin to heal each other.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_LeoCat_
> oh, so you were talking more specifically about phallic narcissism (in that case, yeah, mos def not me)
> 
> I must admit, I was surprised at how gentle you were talking to you via phone. you sounded a lot less 7w8-ish there
> ...


You have to be on Skype late at night with her. I can vouch for it I swear! I see it sometimes!


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Re: @Animal: good point & true. I think it should be well thought out and with tact, but too much whitewashing will ultimately obscure the truth.

I mostly think about the types of people I know in private and would probably only give input if a person asked but I'd probably need to browse their past posts as well.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Animal said:


> People come up with opinions about other people's types all the time. The question is, do you have to tell them? The answer is complicated. Even ethically speaking. Because there is the problem of hurting someone's feelings needlessly vs. watching them spread misinformation or delude themselves and not saying anything. THere is also another option: Figure out/ notice someone's type, know that they are mistyped, and wait for them to put up a typing thread or ask for your input.


Ha, this is my first response to this thread, because it's threads like these that annoy me in typology communities. 

A most challenging situation is when you have someone who is new to the theory, and types as something that is clearly wrong either because of a test or because they superficially (but understandably) related with a type description. In this case what the person needs is an understanding of the permeability of the theory, but this is hard to convince if the person sees themselves off-handedly in an incorrect type. They usually just think the enneagram is unfounded. 

Right up with that are the cases, such as ourselves, where the person has done a decent amount of research, but becomes disoriented by the verbiage. One walks a fine line between being able to connect an enneagram word to their behavior or attitude with good justification, and simply spewing the language randomly. We all have moments of becoming irritated by our own lack of self knowledge or that of others, but I'm finding that forming a personal assessment of that does very little to actually move the situation forward, in either case. Who cares whether someone knows a lot about themselves or not - it isn't a contest. 

Your question here is so critical. I think the solution depends on how exposed the person is to the enneagram, and how much research they have done. For those who haven't delved too far into the theory, better to be suggestive of certain resources that may lead them down the right path, and let them do it themselves; for those who have, it seems to work better when you get to know the person individually, give them concrete examples of what you believe they may be doing and what type it may allude to, then let them percolate it off on their own.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Animal


> In your social circle IRL, do you walk up to aquaintances and tell them things about themselves that they don't want to hear and didnt ask about?


yes, and they do the same for me (notice the word "for", as in I view it as a favor). then again, the two friends I talk to the most are an 8 and a Sexual 6, so it makes sense the preferred channel of communication would be more direct/"out with it" (I'm much more gentle with my 6w5 Sp/Sx friend). if it's really not a good time, one of us will just say "maybe, but this isn't the time. can we talk about ___ instead?", but, more often, the response is more along the lines of "hmm....well damn, I'll have to think about that".

that said, I don't want to make it sound like we're pushy with each other. once the other person is aware of the problem, there's not much use talking about it more unless they are looking for suggestions to change.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Figure
you raise a good point about newbies and Enneagram theory. typing oneself is a waste of time if one doesn't understand the typing system itself. that was my main problem for a long time (I had plenty of self awareness, I just didn't know what each type was _really_ about)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_LeoCat_
I couldn't agree more with your posts about openness and assuming you know someone. I also am sorry if I ever got emotional about my opinions regarding your typing journey. This is part of why I reserve my opinions (whether they are accurate or not) for people I trust. Because I am too passionate for my own good and once I sink my teeth into a concept, a theory, a person's well being.. I care so much and sometimes my passion gets the best of me. I have learned so much from you and I really love your open hearted approach to others. I don't "judge" either but I can get very passionate and heartfelt about things where you would remain rational and be kind all the way through and I really admire it. I love the combination of caring and openness with rationality. It's inspiring. 
@_Swordsman of Mana_ 
I am not saying this to make a 4 vs 7 case because even 7s have insecurities and even 4s can be confident in some things. But enneagram aside, @_LeoCat_ is right. I don't make an attention seeking show out of my insecurity or put myself down to get attention, nor do I claim that I am not tremendously confident in some ways, but I have a bizarre mix of overconfidence and self loathing that cannot really be explained or justified, but it is inevitably part of knowing me well for a long time. My closest friends would say I don't give myself enough credit - people who go through things with me irl rather than just depending on me for self reporting. I am a risk taker and very determined but I would not call it "confident." Any true confidence I have in myself is earned. The only thing I am truly confident about is my tenacity. Yes I have confidence to some degree in my musical talents but I have only been playing for thirty years after all. And my music is never good enough or finished enough and when I do release it I beat myself up for the mistakes and it makes me want to vomit. And while I might fantasize and talk about impressing a guy with my music, come the time I like a guy I am too scared to show him any of my creative work because I am sure he will think it's not good enough.the guy I was most passionate about, cried because for two years I didn't show him my music and when I finally did, he felt terrible that I had "hidden it from him" and didn't trust him. He asked me why and I just said "sorry" because I could not tell him the reason, that I thought he was a better musician and would think I suck. But then I gained the confidence after that to lead my band while singing in a whisper. Because he believed in me and reminded me of my passion and purpose. And once I had made up my mind, nothing could stop me.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

You are always using stereotypes because the system has TYPE in the name! makes me go between giggling and rolling my eyes.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Animal
when I'm insecure, I withdraw and try to deal with that shit ASAP.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

enneathusiast said:


> I like the drawing style. How is it reflective of how you see things?


Contrast. When I look at things I see them largely in terms of the idea it expresses rather than a rich display of color and detail. (Not that I can't appreciate this; in fact, I was floored by how much I was missing the first time I took a few hours to really draw something from life). Color only really stands out to me by contrast, like an accent color. Details are the same way. I very often won't notice what a person wears unless it's something which contrasts with what I find normal or expected.

I have a pamplet about TMD here on my desk. There's a woman on the front wearing a blue suit. I've had this pamplet for weeks, and I only just now noticed that she's wearing a blue suit (as I looked for an example to share). There's also a lot of details on her face I didn't notice too. She's wearing red lipstick. Her forehead has three different shades of brown patched on it. She has wrinkles around her eyes. All I saw (up till now) was a woman with an expression of pain, rubbing her temple and holding an apple that has a bite out of it.

My avatar, in contrast, is almost exactly just the idea I had in mind. It's a person curled up reading a book outside. There's no indication of what this person is wearing. No details to give an identity. The only other object in the scene is a tree, which may not even be recognizable as such. All it is, in this context, is something which supports the person I've depicted. Line & line weight I find to be very expressive for this purpose.

If I wanted to get up close and personal, I'd probably do more with light and shadow within each of these objects (person and tree), but here the tree is just shaded to stand in contrast with the person, who is defined only by line.


Glad you like it. Thanks for letting me know.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> Contrast. When I look at things I see them largely in terms of the idea it expresses rather than a rich display of color and detail. (Not that I can't appreciate this; in fact, I was floored by how much I was missing the first time I took a few hours to really draw something from life). Color only really stands out to me by contrast, like an accent color. Details are the same way. I very often won't notice what a person wears unless it's something which contrasts with what I find normal or expected.


One way I think of that is big-picture vs. detail. People generally have a bias (perhaps types do as well). If someone were to ask me the details of an event, I generally can't give a lot of detail but I have an overall idea of what took place. I think that can also be a tendency with the way type 5 explains things - to have these generalized concepts without a lot of examples and detail which many people have difficulty following. I've found I've got to watch myself in that regard.

In fact, at first I thought your drawing had wings and represented a sort of pixie fairy. Then I looked closer to see that it was something else.



Dying Acedia said:


> Glad you like it. Thanks for letting me know.


I envy your ability to draw with minimal lines. I always liked that but never could do that myself.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Figure said:


> Thirded


Indeed. 



> You've mentioned that you've noticed a difference between type in a forum setting and type outside of a forum setting, which is something I've noticed as well. Do you approach introducing type to others outside a forum setting differently than you do on-forum? If so, how?


I derive inspiration from the ever so wonderful Christian door to door proselytizers and walk around knocking on people's doors with a copy of Character and Neurosis in hand. When rejected or met with indifference, I throw people in the purgatory that is Type 6. Or 1. Or 2. Depends on my mood. Oh, I tack So/Sp to it, if all else fails. 


At other times, I concisely point out certain type relevant traits and "ask" (this is key, not "tell") people if they relate. These are usually people I know personally or have a vested interest in knowing, btw. If they show an interest, I talk to them further and talk about more than one type even if I am pretty sure they are a certain Type. I let them decide the pace, at first. I email them some resources. If they continue to show interest or tell me how they relate or don't, I move forward with the conversation. That's pretty much it. 



> What has been of _significant_ payout, when I use the enneagram in real life, is to actually give others options for exploring their own already-lived experiences without even talking about the numbers or key buzzwords. You sort of paint a picture with words for the person you want to help, and read from it to them as they share their thoughts and experiences with you.


Yes

I don't even get into wanting to 'help', for some can find that patronizing. People are just Enneagram case studies to me, fmp. And, I don't consider Enneagram the most comprehensive tool for personal growth anyway. *shrugs* 

I deeply care for very few. But, the way you describe is an excellent way of going about it. 




> It's much harder to do this on a forum. On the forum, we so often begin with peoples' type as a reference to who they are. I have a bad habit of substituting that number as an actual picture of the person. There are really, only like 2 or 3 people on this forum that I don't think of as a number (you know who you are), which is really unfortunate because all of what this theory encapsulates begins at the level of our experiences - not the theory itself.


This is a pitfall, for sure. I do my best to view people as individuals first and numbers second or third or tenth. IRL, it's not even an issue. On forums, it can be tricky at times because so much interpersonal interaction here is type based (on typology forums). 

_____________________________________________________________


I am going to address this further if I am up for it. But, here's one more thing that annoys me- Associating "superego" type or superego fix with being a good person. What the fuck?


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> I am going to address this further if I am in the mood. But, here's one more thing that annoys me- Associating "superego" type or superego fix with being a good person. What the fuck?


right. it's more like a filter that everything (whether "good" _or_ "bad") has to pass through; something to see the world through, to justify and rationalize all actions toward--a false belief or outlook holding onto an (subjective) ideal state, usually born out of some form of guilt. 

the point is--or the one you're making, and what people seem to garner from descriptions so generic/general that what's read is hardly what reality is, or _can_ be--that the superego-complex-thing is a defense mechanism, to strive towards something (a reduced version of "the ideal") that is the polar opposite of the content/memories/states-of-being/feelings of initial trauma that birthed a need to divide oneself _from_ the content to begin with... it's movement of energy, not a stamp of good behavior (lol); and all this means is just that--movement, born out of a particular cause, that travels a particular direction--in this form it's still highly malleable, and i'm sure, precedes the arenas and "mental-tributaries" that lead to what is actually seen as our behavior.

a great deal can occur in what has to be that very massive gap between the beginning of the process and it's final, end result. i mean, hitler was supposedly a CP 6, fit with a super-ego and all.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> But, here's one more thing that annoys me- Associating "superego" type or superego fix with being a good person. What the fuck?


I've seen that with 1 and 2, but not so much 6. My impression of Superego here is that it's seen as this pathetic, dependent lack of selfhood that prevents people from getting "what they want" in forcing them to cloy to others for authority. Bible thumping lunatics, cookie baking goodie two shoes, and paranoid cowardly lemmings. But yes, at least with 1 and 2 they are given the titles of being already "good" and "helpful" while the other 7 types are evaluated as having to reach a more desirable state (7 scattered to focused, for example). 

These types are absolutely no more "advanced." We've hashed out 2 as a seducer not a giver, and I'm happy to remind that many 1's end up as control freaks for a reason. Eradicating every ethical flaw and putting so much emphasis on re-shaping one's own being into something else requires that there be a reason to think I have to make that effort, and yeah, it's there, in the form of an Id that would go hog wild if it was let out (that's the fear at least). I don't think 1's are any more "good" than 2's are "caring" until they do inner work. 

This is a bit outrageous, but I think a lot of the flashy, con artist aspects of 8 that we inflate here are actually more related to their inner 2 than 8 itself. And, that people assume 1's are born at a point of not needing inner development (David Fauvre calls it being "godlike") - which is hysterical.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

lmfao @ god- like :laughing: Leave it to the morons.

@_enneathusiast_

after all this talk of avatars, i'd be curious to know your thoughts on mine (type related or whatever).

personally, i've never paid much attention to other people's avatars. for me, it's just one way of pictorially attaching people to usernames. i tend not to read into them, generally.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> lmfao @ god- like :laughing: Leave it to the morons.
> 
> @_enneathusiast_
> 
> ...


I don't really pay much attention to the avatars myself unless they jump out at me and create some internal response I have to deal with (generally repulsion) or it confuses me as to how to address the person (generally having to do with gender). I'd prefer that avatars give me a more clear idea of the person I'm talking to (how they want to be seen for purposes of the discussion) but that's not gonna happen.

What came up in response to sharing my annoyance is that sometimes people have a backstory to their avatar that says something about them. I don't go digging for it but sometimes it's offered up or hinted at for some reason and it might be interesting to hear about.

But for grins and giggles I'll simply say that yours seems to me to have to do with place (where you live or grew up or would even like to travel to or explore) or belief (something that represents a religion or philosophy of interest to you). I think these images just make connections in our minds whether we want them to or not (I know they do for me). I sometimes have to make a conscious effort to try and break that association when the avatar creates a strong reaction for me. Otherwise, I find there's an emotional bias or attitude associated with the person as I read their post.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Animal said:


> A beautiful photo of a woman, bearing her curves, might equally evoke something negative in a man who has been played by a beautiful woman. So I could put up a picture of a beautiful woman and someone else might have their own reaction. Other women might feel jealous. Men might fear it and associate it with heartache. etC.


I don't know if what you describe is an iNtuitive thing or if maybe I'm just shallow but if I see a photo of a beautiful woman bearing her curves, that just makes me fucking horny lmao.

Oh and WOW, I never realized some people identify with their avatars as much as what people are saying. I just picked mine because I think Muhammad Ali is bad ass lol.

P.S. Thanks for all this information! I think I really do have a 4-fix now.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Animal said:


> I used to hang out with a guy who had a similar long hair cut and rocknroll style to myself. This is before I "went public" with the facebook male alterego; before people used facebook etc. Anyhow.. people would call his name down the street, thinking I was him - all the time. He's 5'11 and I'm 5'4. But from far away, from windows, from across the street - people mistook us for each other. We had a similar leather jacket, hair, jeans, stance. He was very curvy for a guy and I was straight and broad-shouldered for a woman. Photos of us next to each other, our posture and stance and body look EERILY alike. It's almost scary. There was one time I threw a party at my own house, and I was doing my "rockstar imitation" - pretending to play guitar along with Guns N Roses (I sing and play piano, but can't play guitar very well) - and this guy is a guitar player. People kept asking him when he left the party, and he kept telling them - I wasn't there. They were SO CERTAIN he was there. And I didn't do a whole outfit.. I just wore my usual clothes and did my guitar imitation. People mistook me for him.


I see what you mean. I couldn't tell if you were the guitarist or not in the front page video. I'm guessing you're not - only because I see you together in the same scene (though there are one or two scenes where I suspect it might be you).

The whole story you create around the music and yourself is a fascinating experience of 4ness to me. It goes beyond some dry descriptions on a page into a whole experiential world. I'll have to check out the lyrics next when I get some time.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@enneathusiast, just my perspective but I don't really see the purpose of selecting an avatar based on "type". My type is nothing more than a "box" that I need to find a way out of; not something I feel any inclination to celebrate; so like @Animal, I pick my avatars, sigpic and (in my case anyway) profile pics; solely on the basis of what speaks to me at the time. You probably wouldn't have care for the angry unicorn avatar I had for awhile in the past but it - like my current one - really spoke to me at the time.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

enneathusiast said:


> This probably has to do with forums in general.
> 
> It's annoying to me when people's avatar doesn't represent them. I'll be responding to a post, looking at this image and I can't help but associate that with who I'm talking to - kind of like you look into someone's face when you talk to them in person. Problem is there will be this image of a male or female (I suppose their ideal mate or anima/animus or something), then I'll look at the gender flag and find that they're of the opposite gender. This isn't a one time thing either. I'll be thrown off by this again and again even when replying to the same people I've already had this response to. It's strange how much it really messes with my head. Just wondering if I'm alone on this or others do this as well.


Do you mean if it represents their gender? I mean, perhaps they don't want to use their avatars as something to identify as in a gender sense, maybe if they are androgynous for example. I dunno, im very visually stimulated and love my arty stuff, I studied art for a number of years so IDK, having something pretty/cool/interesting to look at(I guess the fact that it's in an avatar makes it sound a little vain but then again, I have something else quite interesting on my Facebook avatar). I guess also, PerC being another social environment, some might use it to play dress up like in real life, maybe they feel naked without an avatar :laughing:. All speculative though. Behind what it says about someone, I get what your saying later on even about the not being bothered about having an avatar meaning such people are just apathetic to that sort of thing.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> I see what you mean. I couldn't tell if you were the guitarist or not in the front page video. I'm guessing you're not - only because I see you together in the same scene (though there are one or two scenes where I suspect it might be you).
> 
> The whole story you create around the music and yourself is a fascinating experience of 4ness to me. It goes beyond some dry descriptions on a page into a whole experiential world. I'll have to check out the lyrics next when I get some time.


Yes, the guitarist and the woman are both me. I am a photoshop wiz, that's why we're in the pictures together. =) I also edited us together in the video. There are more scenes in the next video, but due to illness my hair fell out 2 years ago so I have two half-finished videos with some pretty sweet scenes.  My hair is almost at a point where I can film, so I'll probably have two more videos this summer.

I'm glad if it could give you a better view of 4


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> I don't know if what you describe is an iNtuitive thing or if maybe I'm just shallow *but if I see a photo of a beautiful woman bearing her curves, that just makes me fucking horny lmao.*
> 
> Oh and WOW, I never realized some people identify with their avatars as much as what people are saying. I just picked mine because I think Muhammad Ali is bad ass lol.


I lole'd irl.

Maybe my next avatar will bear her curves just to tease the male/ lesbian sensors. I've had a good run teasing straight women. I've had a couple people PM me or add me on skype thinking I was a hot guy (unbeknownst to me) and then tell me when they found out I was female, they were disappointed. I feel bad to disappoint but I find it thoroughly amusing too… ;D

In all seriousness I do pick avatars that represent me, or my self-image, but part of that does include some expression of sexuality. I don't relate to porn and "sexy for its own sake" but a beautiful, raw scene is going to include someone beautiful and sensuous, or else it doesn't appeal to my aesthetic or sexual sensibilities.

My male alter ego gets attention from women on facebook as well. I never lie or lead anyone on - I just ignore it. I once had a gorgeous female roommate ask me to dress up as my male alter-ego and come to her bedroom at night. I told her I'd love to, but what happens when he takes his costume off? 



> P.S. Thanks for all this information! I think I really do have a 4-fix now.


Oh?? Curious what made it click? But glad if it helped =)


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> I've had a good run teasing straight women. I've had a couple people PM me or add me on skype thinking I was a hot guy (unbeknownst to me) and then tell me when they found out I was female, they were disappointed. I feel bad to disappoint but I find it thoroughly amusing too… ;D


Wait? What . . .? some woman added you on Skype because they thought you look like your avatar?

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

As far as the reverse goes however, you don't need a pic of a curvy woman to attract male attention on Skype; all you need is a female sounding name and strange guys come out of the woodwork to talk to you.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Myoho Traveller said:


> Wait? What . . .? some woman added you on Skype because they thought you look like your avatar?
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


It's not that they thought I looked like my avatar, but they found my personality sexy for a guy and paired with the avatar that turned them on.

I find that if I don't specify my gender, and simply express myself - even WITHOUT a male avatar - people often think I'm male. This happened to me when I first came to PerC. I always had tigers and animals as avatars, and no gender sign, and a lot of people referred to me as "he" and the assumption was I was some kind of over-sexed, pumped up sexy guy with a sensitive heart. I don't know why. But I also find that characters in my novel who turn out most similar to me, tend to fit this category too. I'd say I was born in the wrong gender but I don't have body dysphoria, I feel just fine as a woman. It's just that my verbal self-expression or some element of my sexuality strikes people as male. Maybe because I'm high-testosterone and also bloated-ego but extremely sensitive deep down.



> As far as the reverse goes however, you don't need a pic of a curvy woman to attract male attention on Skype; all you need is a female sounding name and strange guys come out of the woodwork to talk to you.


Ha. My skype name is animal, so I probably scare away most humans. >=]


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> Ha. My skype name is animal, so I probably scare away most humans. >=]


That wouldn't be a problem on Ok Cupid.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Myoho Traveller said:


> That wouldn't be a problem on Ok Cupid.


My okcupid name is basically a request for someone to tame me. It includes the word 'tame' but it's a command, like "Tame [me]" 

I've had that profile for years and I used to get 10-15 letters a day on an average day, when I was in my 20s and living in NYC. Since I passed to 30 and moved upstate now I get about 3 letters a day. I've had the profile sine 2005 and only gone on one date, though I answer emails once in a while. I find the whole 'online dating thing' kind of a turn off. I keep my profile up and fantasize that the perfect guy will be willing to email me for months before we meet and keep an open mind, but it never happens that way. I can't stand getting to know someone when there is dating pressure. I wish there were sites set up to 'make friends' and then you can see what happens naturally. I have enough friends, but I'd rather 'make friends' with a guy and then decide if I like him. I'm not turned on by strangers in any way, shape or form no matter how hot they are. I need shame, fear, rage; I need to sink my teeth into their soul before I want to get naked.


It also doesn't help that I know who I want and nobody can compare to him but I can't have him.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> My okcupid name is basically a request for someone to tame me. It includes the word 'tame' but it's a command, like "Tame [me]"
> 
> I've had that profile for years and I used to get 10-15 letters a day on an average day, when I was in my 20s and living in NYC. Since I passed to 30 and moved upstate now I get about 3 letters a day. I've had the profile sine 2005 and only gone on one date, though I answer emails once in a while. I find the whole 'online dating thing' kind of a turn off. I keep my profile up and fantasize that the perfect guy will be willing to email me for months before we meet and keep an open mind, but it never happens that way. I can't stand getting to know someone when there is dating pressure. I wish there were sites set up to 'make friends' and then you can see what happens naturally. I have enough friends, but I'd rather 'make friends' with a guy and then decide if I like him. I'm not turned on by strangers in any way, shape or form no matter how hot they are. I need shame, fear, rage; I need to sink my teeth into their soul before I want to get naked.
> 
> ...


I can totally relate to this. I detest the whole game playing and artificiality of online dating sites. For me the worst part of it, is guys who give interviews. I'm like, "let's just have a easygoing conversation without any expectations of where that might lead". I find a lot of people on those sites seem desperate to be in a relationship wither either ANYONE or Barbie.


Oops, I probably shouldn't be derailing this thread; sorry. :blushed:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Myoho Traveller said:


> I can totally relate to this. I detest the whole game playing and artificiality of online dating sites. For me the worst part of it, is guys who give interviews. I'm like, "let's just have a easygoing conversation without any expectations of where that might lead". I find a lot of people on those sites seem desperate to be in a relationship wither either ANYONE or Barbie.
> 
> 
> Oops, I probably shouldn't be derailing this thread; sorry. :blushed:


My problem is that everything feels superficial next to the love and the hatred I have already known. I have an extreme, dark and intense past, and those who were there with me through those times are the only ones who can truly understand the depths of me. I can explain it, and write about it, and express it in music, but if you weren't there, you'll never understand the places I've been. Those who have been there with me, and still accept me, are the only ones who I will ever believe, truly love me. Anyone else loves what I have become, but they cannot possibly fathom what I once was, and how I evolved into the person I am today, no matter how interested they are in my stories, old photos, old art, old videos etc. They weren't there when mens' hearts were bleeding from between my teeth; they weren't there when I paraded around my dorm naked covered in hair dye; they weren't there when I stalked the campus or the town alone at night with music in my headphones, a long dark trench coat and a camera capturing the underside of hell. I almost feel there is no point looking to meet people. The only ones who appeal to me are those I already know, or those I meet who have a similar dark past in their eyes; who have been resurrected from the undead; who can understand inherently, without it needing to be explained.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> My problem is that everything feels superficial next to the love and the hatred I have already known. I have an extreme, dark and intense past, and those who were there with me through those times are the only ones who can truly understand the depths of me. . . . I almost feel there is no point looking to meet people. The only ones who appeal to me are those I already know, or those I meet who have a similar dark past in their eyes; who have been resurrected from the undead; who can understand inherently, without it needing to be explained.


This is somewhat dissimilar but a lot of people are impressed and drawn to me by my quirky offbeat sense of humour but I would give anything to find someone who understood me and accepted me for my sadness and accepted all of my hurt and loved in spite of it or even because of it. I'm not saying I want to mope and have someone love me for that but to not want to head for the hills when they see that side of me. I am fking sick and tired of people only wanting to be around me when I'm up. I want to be real and not to have my pain discounted. Of course, I also treasure the witty fun-loving side of me as well; it's just that - it's not ALL I am! :frustrating:

Getting back on topic. I feel that people all too often focus on the superficial, to type you, without getting to know what really motivates a person at their very core of their being but I suppose that the nature of the beast, so to speak and applies to _all_ typology communities, not just the Enneagram.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> Anyway, my complex gender identity aside, I also hate it when someone's avatar doesn't represent who they really are. It throws me off. But I would be careful with judgements like "their avatar doesn't represent them" because of gender or other specifics. Not everyone carries the same dichotomies in their sense of self or personal expression.


I don't get that thrown off by people's avatars unless they suddenly change them, perhaps (but I'm not the right one to complain about this, because I change my own avatar so often =P). Even though I tend to imagine posters looking like their avatars, it doesn't bother me if, say, a woman uses a male avatar. It helps that I naturally tend to look at people's gender icons, if they have any (which might say something about me, like being preoccupied with gender, but ah well). Although I think you've always had your gender set to unknown, but while I found myself wondering in the beginning, I did assume you were probably a woman, male icon or no.



Animal said:


> @ _enneathusiast_
> 
> On second thought - to be fair -
> 
> I do have an introjection/mirroring issue with the men who turn me on most, where I can see myself in them to unhealthy degrees. I see this as an SX issue, and quite possibly an SX4 issue. So "he turns me on" and "he is my self-image" is actually a scathingly honest portrayal of my inner life and my deepest blunders.


You know, I wonder how many have that problem (well... to the degree that you even see it as a problem. I'm sure some don't). I know when I see a male character (I say characters because I've yet to fall for a real guy *cough*) I'm really attracted to, it can be hard to say if I'd rather want to have them them, or want to _be _them. But then I'm like "no way I can compare myself to that, I'd never be that sexy. :blushed:" So I end up not relating to them that much, even if I kind of do at the same time. (It's a bit complicated)

Well, I don't know how well my Kyubey avatar represents me, neither would I say I'm _that _attracted to the character (though they are pretty adorable), but ah well. :tongue:



OkWhat said:


> Wow, really? I have some obligation to wear my inner-self on my sleeve for some people I don't even know?


To be honest I'm not too eager to do this either, which is part of why I don't care about finding something that represents me that well anyway (another reason is that it would be too much of a hassle to find something that does. Closest I get is the cartooney self-portrait of myself I uploaded in my profile =P). I could always not have an avatar, but I like having something. I guess the closest it gets to representing me is that it's something I'm interested in/like, or I wouldn't have it as an avatar in the first place.



enneathusiast said:


> But, it also indicates I don't want people to have any mistaken assumptions or impressions about me because of their subjective interpretation of it (which is a type 5 thing).


It is?

Well, I'm not a 5, but I'm a 6 (probably), and I guess I kind of like it when people don't know as much about me as they would like, because then I'm not the only one feeling uncertain. >_> (Actually, I'm not sure if that's quite it, but that's the closest I can think of explaining it at the moment) Although at times it can upset me if people misinterpret me too much. Conflicting motivations. 



Myoho Traveller said:


> You probably wouldn't have care for the angry unicorn avatar I had for awhile in the past but it - like my current one - really spoke to me at the time.


I thought it fit you, somehow. :tongue:



Animal said:


> Ha. My skype name is animal, so I probably scare away most humans. >=]


To be honest, I'm surprised you don't attract more pervs with that name. =P

(Sigh, I avoid PerC for a couple of days, only to come back to comment on "old" stuff.)


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

So does Nonsense Kyubei in life?

I don't know how to feel about that.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Sixty Nein said:


> So does Nonsense Kyubei in life?
> 
> I don't know how to feel about that.


LOL, I'm not sure what you are asking.


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## Faunae (Mar 14, 2014)

What do you mean by typing music? I think it's okay for someone to say they think a song relates to them, more specifically their type. For example, I relate to the song "Creep" by Radiohead. I know it was written about a romantic interest, but certain lines can be interpreted as envy ("you're so special/I wish I was special") (omitted the curse word 'cause I'm not sure of the cursing policy here) and it definitely has to do with feeling different, so I'd say it's safe to call that a "type four song". Using the enneagram for things other than people's personalities doesn't seem harmful to me.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

There,

I got an avatar that wouldn't annoy @_enneathusiast_ and would potentially tease @_Gentleman Bastard_. :laughing:

This avatar looks..surprisingly similar to me when my hair is long. The quality of the hair.. waves.. and the very very small curves.. and the fact that its wearing a white dress is strikingly similar to how I look. I'm not QUITE that thin or graceful but from afar in a photo I could probably mimic that pose.

However I'm not thrilled with it. It's not bloody and intense enough for my personality. It looks like me but it isn't me. I need blood between the teeth, fire, rage, triumph, anger, strength, weakness, vulnerability. The expression on the male avatar's face was perfect. But I'll see if I can live with this one for a few days to tease the sensors. That is, those sensors who can be 'teased' by small boobs.. ;D


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Animal said:


> I lole'd irl.
> 
> Maybe my next avatar will bear her curves just to tease the male/ lesbian sensors. I've had a good run teasing straight women. I've had a couple people PM me or add me on skype thinking I was a hot guy (unbeknownst to me) and then tell me when they found out I was female, they were disappointed. I feel bad to disappoint but I find it thoroughly amusing too… ;D
> 
> ...


LOL, you evil, evil woman. My libido is high enough as it is! Last thing I need is photos of curvy women to get that itch going :laughing:. And lmao @ tricking women into thinking you're a male, ahahaha, how?? I just can't imagine that happening, in my eyes, you're so feminine =P. Besides, I like you much more as a woman (*Grins!!*). Oh and, you're an Ne dom, I'm sure there's lots of possibilities to come up with for when you take off that male-costume lol. As far as 4-fix goes, well, I think I do see the whole mirroring and introjection thing going on with me at times, though definitely nowhere near to the degree other 4s are describing it here. I actually already forget some of the reasons I had going through my head, but I'm pretty certain they were good haha.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Gentleman Bastard said:


> LOL, you evil, evil woman. My libido is high enough as it is! Last thing I need is photos of curvy women to get that itch going :laughing:.


LMAO - I just put up a post above this.. almost exactly at the same time. SO FUNNY.

Hopefully you're a big-boob man, then, so you won't be too bothered.  I couldn't rightfully represent myself that way because my slender curves are part of my self-image and how I experience myself. I don't see _myself_ in photos of women with big curves, for the most part, unless that's not a central element of the photo. Even though they can be beautiful… and I love looking at beautiful women too.. it isn't _me_.



> And lmao @ tricking women into thinking you're a male, ahahaha, how?? I just can't imagine that happening, in my eyes, you're so feminine =P.


Haha, we'll have to find each other on facebook. I appreciate the complement  I am very feminine! But my male alter-ego does a fine job of exhibiting our masculine 'rawr' and that vulnerable cuteness; the little boy that some rockstar 4ish men cannot help but exhibit when they play guitar.

Oddly enough, I experience my femininity as my fierce, strong side, and my masculinity as my vulnerable side. Or, the side that acts tough because it feels vulnerable. My masculinity is the side that gets way too vulnerable and attached in love. My femininity is the side that stays strong and does what she has to do. I want to point out, however, that vulnerability IS NOT the same as weakness. In fact, I see it as strength.

This is also, IN NO WAY, a statement that men in general are vulnerable or weak. I was raised by a strong, good man and a grandfather who was similar to Gandhi, lol. I have dated some incredibly strong men and some of my male friends are really solid people. I'm just talking about how I experience _my own_ gender expression.



> Besides, I like you much more as a woman (*Grins!!*).


:kitteh:



> Oh and, you're an Ne dom, I'm sure there's lots of possibilities to come up with for when you take off that male-costume lol.


Last night on my way to bed, I was zoning out and looking for photos and I collected about 40 of them in a folder. I don't know what to do with that folder LOL. But that's what it took to find one that did it for me. The second I saw this one, I knew I'd use it.. but I kept looking for something similar but with more blood. I couldn't find it so I 'settled.' For now. Not something I usually do, but hey, never hurts to step out of the comfort zone a little, especially since people asked nicely. 



> As far as 4-fix goes, well, I think I do see the whole mirroring and introjection thing going on with me at times, though definitely nowhere near to the degree other 4s are describing it here. I actually already forget some of the reasons I had going through my head, but I'm pretty certain they were good haha.


Haha! I can see it actually. I mean.. it doesn't feel off to me. Triple-reactive… makes sense for you though it is an extreme typing. I'm triple-idealist/ triple-frustration !!  Extreme personalities high five??  Although, I've typed as 478 for a long time. With good reason. I only recently came to realize 1 fix made more sense, but of course my mind is open. But..now that I've seen it, it's hard to "un-see."

Some of my lyrics are mirroring & introjection galore…..


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> To be honest, I'm surprised you don't attract more pervs with that name. =P


I have perv repellent. I cut right to the core and when it's that shallow and weak I find out within minutes, and either block them or scare them away.

Usually I just block them because I don't have time. But if I'm in the mood, I'll toy with them. I've been known to back pervs into corners our out-perv them to the point where they block_ me_. :kitteh:


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

I want to see the macho avatar again, @Animal, just to see how it looks like.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> I have perv repellent. I cut right to the core and when it's that shallow and weak I find out within minutes, and either block them or scare them away.
> 
> Usually I just block them because I don't have time. But if I'm in the mood, I'll toy with them. I've been known to back pervs into corners our out-perv them to the point where they block_ me_. :kitteh:


Pff, I'm tempted to try this now, but it's a risky game to play. For all I know they might be into anything I can come up with. 

Although there was one time I scared a boy away on accident. Well, "scared" might not be the right word, but I guess I was too weird for him. Or my level of hotness was not high enough outweight said weirdness. I dunno.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Mr.Rbtoo said:


> I want to see the macho avatar again, @_Animal_, just to see how it looks like.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Well the obvious similarities between the two is that they have nipples. Clearly the one thing that connects the two images together.

Also the water-vapor and fire-smoke contrast too.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Typing by comparison..I forgot to add this. It's okay to talk about relevant parallels and contrasts, but mostly or strictly typing by comparison is nonsense.

I've had Sx lasts type me, someone with very strong Sx, as Sx last while holding themselves up as some kind of model Sx dominants, only to discover later they were anything but. XD I've seen people say stuff like you are too X or Y to be a certain type because I am said type and I so don't relate, only to change their fuckin type to a polar opposite of the initial typing.:laughing:

So, I rarely if ever pay attention to shit like this. Life history, generational influences, early childhood environment, absence/presence of psychopathology all contribute towards personality. If all you have going for your argument is "I relate" or "I don't relate" OR "you are not like my Type X daddy or granny or mommy or nanny or office janitor or what have you, therefore you are not said Type or you are just like my whatever...hence you are that type or I am just like so and so person of a certain type therefore I am their type", then rest assured, I will not take your ass seriously. Simply talking about two people being very similar or highlighting these things as I said or even making some typology connections is fine. At times, such people may even be the same type or tritype. Taking it as a given or almost a given, at face value especially, is bullshit. Some people just take it so far that their whole argument snaps in two. Illogic can only cover so much ground before people trip and fall on their ass.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> Typing by comparison..I forgot to add this. It's okay to talk about relevant parallels and contrasts, but mostly or strictly typing by comparison is nonsense.


But..but..I wanna be a xNTJ Systems builder/mover & shaker sp/sX so I can be just like _you_…. :crying:


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@Animal

For me the female image looks like innocent true inner spirit and the male image looks like what's shown to the world in protection of it.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> @_Animal_
> 
> For me the female image looks like innocent true inner spirit and the male image looks like what's shown to the world in protection of it.


=)

That sounds about right =) =)


*hides*


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Cosmic Orgasm said:


> If all you have going for your argument is ... "you are not like my Type X daddy or granny or mommy or nanny or office janitor or what have you, therefore you are not said Type or you are just like my whatever...hence you are that type or I am just like so and so person of a certain type therefore I am their type", then rest assured, I will not take your ass seriously. Simply talking about two people being very similar or highlighting these things as I said or even making some typology connections is fine. At times, such people may even be the same type or tritype. Taking it as a given or almost a given, at face value especially, is bullshit. Some people just take it so far that their whole argument snaps in two. Illogic can only cover so much ground before people trip and fall on their ass.


Something I learned a long time ago in NLP has to do with the concept of calibration. With calibration, we begin to recognize certain cues in people we know that tell us what's going on with that person - in other words, we learn how to read this person in terms of expressions, behaviors, emotional states, etc. The mistake sometimes made is using the same calibrations to mean the same thing for two different people. It's like saying that "my ex used to do that and it meant such and such". The assumption is "you're doing that same thing as my ex, therefore it must mean the same thing". It may or may not. It's best to recalibrate to the new person so that you understand what those cues mean for the new person - they may represent quite different things underneath. Unfortunately, it seems to be human habit to generalize these cues to mean the same thing for everyone.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Animal said:


> YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!! Hallelujah. This is very similar to what I was saying in my previous posts on this thread, but the way you phrased it was more concise- this REALLY needed to be said.


Thanks. I guess that's my Ti talking here, concisely. Haven't gotten to your posts yet, but I'm glad I could articulate that.

It's quite marvelous to find that cards you've played close to your chest your whole life are perfectly normal and just a mental phenomenon, too. I think.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Animal said:


> LMAO - I just put up a post above this.. almost exactly at the same time. SO FUNNY.



:laughing: Yeah, I noticed that too lol.



Animal said:


> Hopefully you're a big-boob man, then, so you won't be too bothered.  I couldn't rightfully represent myself that way because my slender curves are part of my self-image and how I experience myself. I don't see myself in photos of women with big curves, for the most part, unless that's not a central element of the photo. Even though they can be beautiful… and I love looking at beautiful women too.. it isn't me.


Actually, I'm an ass-man . Must be the Rican in me lol. I'm a sucker for big-boobs too, but then again, anything does it for me lmao. I must say, the way the woman in your avatar is arching her back, and that lean stomach...:blushed: LOL. If that is supposed to be you, well, I like, I like, lol. Ok, now I just feel silly lmao, but this is amusing as hell.



Animal said:


> Haha, we'll have to find each other on facebook. I appreciate the complement  I am very feminine! But my male alter-ego does a fine job of exhibiting our masculine 'rawr' and that vulnerable cuteness; the little boy that some rockstar 4ish men cannot help but exhibit when they play guitar.
> 
> Oddly enough, I experience my femininity as my fierce, strong side, and my masculinity as my vulnerable side. Or, the side that acts tough because it feels vulnerable. My masculinity is the side that gets way too vulnerable and attached in love. My femininity is the side that stays strong and does what she has to do. I want to point out, however, that vulnerability IS NOT the same as weakness. In fact, I see it as strength.
> 
> This is also, IN NO WAY, a statement that men in general are vulnerable or weak. I was raised by a strong, good man and a grandfather who was similar to Gandhi, lol. I have dated some incredibly strong men and some of my male friends are really solid people. I'm just talking about how I experience my own gender expression.


This may be creepy, but I've already found you lol :ninja: . You know, I don't know jack shit about this, but what you describe kind of sounds like that whole anima/animus thing, only in reverse? That's interesting nonetheless. You sound like you're in a romance with yourself lol :tongue:. And lol, nahhh, I wouldn't have thought you were saying men were weak if you hadn't clarified that. Besides, honestly, I wouldn't have really cared? There are weak men and strong women, it's a matter of the individual rather than gender (except physically, with some exceptions). But it's not like you dispute this shit, so, yeah, lol.



Animal said:


> Last night on my way to bed, I was zoning out and looking for photos and I collected about 40 of them in a folder. I don't know what to do with that folder LOL. But that's what it took to find one that did it for me. The second I saw this one, I knew I'd use it.. but I kept looking for something similar but with more blood. I couldn't find it so I 'settled.' For now. Not something I usually do, but hey, never hurts to step out of the comfort zone a little, especially since people asked nicely.


Lol, I swear, only a 4 or image type would go through that :tongue:, so dedicated aha. Honestly, I like the new avatar, but I do miss the fire in the old photo. Fucking love fire. Still, change is good :happy:.



Animal said:


> Haha! I can see it actually. I mean.. it doesn't feel off to me. Triple-reactive… makes sense for you though it is an extreme typing. I'm triple-idealist/ triple-frustration !!  Extreme personalities high five??  Although, I've typed as 478 for a long time. With good reason. I only recently came to realize 1 fix made more sense, but of course my mind is open. But..now that I've seen it, it's hard to "un-see."
> 
> Some of my lyrics are mirroring & introjection galore…..


Yay for intensity and extremes! *high fives* Lol. I wish I knew more about the other types, as well as you, to offer my opinion (what can I say, I love offering my opinions lol). But yeah, I do feel 471 makes more sense, but I'll definitely let you know if I see something! By the way, so is this introjection & mirroring a conscious thing? I feel like I do it on accident. I mean, fuck, I swear Boss's ass is starting to rub off on me, with her random as fuck smilies and lols/lmaos/lofls/etc. Next thing I know, I'll start growing a vagina *checks to see if balls are still there*. Nope, still there...wait a minute, fuck! Still rubbing off on me xD.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> I thought it fit you, somehow. :tongue:












ORLY?


:kitteh:


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Animal said:


> But 4s can be just as fake, and other types (6, 9 and 3 included) can be just as genuine in their expression. I, too, get annoyed by people who want to be SEEN as unique rather than expressing who they really are. Ironically, if they expressed themselves genuinely, it would lead to expressing HONEST HUMAN sentiments that EVERYONE can relate to, thus the whole "unique" bit becomes irrelevant when one is truly expressing herself and communicating authenticity.
> 
> But I can see a 4 "trying to be unique" rather than being authentic or genuine just as easily and not even realizing they are doing it, since they are still an image type. I know 6s, 9s, 7s, 3s etc who are very self-expressive in an honest way, and 4s as well. Really the difference between authentic and genuine vs. "try-hard" is beyond enneagram.


Exactly. To try and set yourself differently doesn't necessarily hold resemblance to true authenticity. There is a great irony here. And on the same token, doesn't mean 4's are fake either but they arn't immune either.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> Half of those people are probably mistyped, for whatever reason. And such "distribution surveys" typically use a biased sample group.


it doesn't help that most 3 descriptions are awful and most "3s" are, in fact
- _Social 2s_
- 6s
- a few 7s

@OP
people who say "that's a stereotype" when it is, in fact, something directly pulled from a credible description. dismissing less convenient aspects of a type as "stereotypes" does not make you open minded. in fact, it makes you the opposite.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@TaylorS

I had not looked or remembered the statistics but in my personal experience 3s are most rare. Of course, I would not type anyone with certainty unless I knew them very well and in most cases, received some contribution from them directly in the process. But that being said, it seems more rare to me, for whatever that's worth. I can also buy that a larger proportion of 3s are somewhere at the top of some ladder working constantly, and this is why I've never met them.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> Half of those people are probably mistyped, for whatever reason. And such "distribution surveys" typically use a biased sample group.


This is the problem. I've seen people becoming worked up because there are "so many 4s" on perc and not enough 3s. Let's think about this for a moment, though. 4s are _more likely_ to want to spend hours of their day posting about who they are and human psychology. 3s are _more likely_ to feel, after doing this for an hour here and there, "I really should be getting something done. This is a waste of my day." 

My friend who is a 3 signed up for this site with a goal: to figure out her type. I didn't realize that, I thought she would hang out and post and learn. But no, once she figured it out, she thanked everyone and went right back to work. I almost felt bad for tagging my friends on her typing thread.  But it was good, she learned her type, read some books and continued with her schedule of workday, gym every day, special dieting, doing her creative work, etc. This is, of course, not absolute. There are 3s who might post a lot, and I am not suggesting all 3s on the site who are active, are mistyped. But this may account for the huge discrepancy in the number of 3s vs. 4s on the site, to cite one example.

Then where studies are concerned, we'd have to determine who would be selected or attracted to such a study and why.. etc. I take the numbers on those studies with a grain of salt.



I think about the "distribution of types" the same way in my real life, too. I'm a musician and writer, so I'm more likely to meet 4s, 5s, 7s, 6s, 9s etc… types who are oriented toward bantering about psychology, the arts, or creativity. Does this mean that 2s, 3, 1, 8 cant banter about creativity? Of course not. Any type can be creative or un-creative, or banter about it. But the motivations of some types lend themselves more toward a certain lifestyle which is why I might meet more of those types than others. 3s are, in my experience, INSANELY creative, but they are usually working toward goals, rather than hanging out with other artists talking about it. The creative 3s that I know, climb up very quickly in their field as they are attentive to marketing in ways that I am not. They become frustrated with me fast and ask "what are you going to _DO_ with that project????" Soon enough they're in a whole other league. Yet I continue to meet 4s, 7s, 6s.. who are still waiting for 'the big break.' This is of course.. a drastic over-generalization but I think it makes the point that given my place in life, I'm more likely to meet certain kinds of _people_ and possibly certain types more than others.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I always found it kind of interesting that 2 out of the 3 withdrawn types are supposed to be rare.


Yeah, maybe it didn't occur to anyone that those types are, on the whole, more likely to be isolated or holed up in their house?? ^_^


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

I think my thread should be sticked roud: EVERYBODY MUST STOP THIS CRAP! :blushed:


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## clio (Apr 14, 2014)

Hi!
I have a question about this topic. I find it unintentionally funny, and I don't mean to sound rude by stating that. Here's my point, I'm in my forties, and I have casually studied types for many years. I find that depending on my "mode" of feeling and thinking I switch between a 2 and a 4 (and others at times!). 
Perhaps, I'm still emotionally in my young adult hood? That may be true, but for the most part, I think social masks and emotions do play a HUGE part in this, and I do think that many people switch from time to time for different reasons. Nothing is "static". 

Just my two cents.


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## CaptSwan (Mar 31, 2013)

Another situation I've been able to detect regarding typology communities is how "religion-like" some people tend to become. This is particularly so in MBTI places; and, to some degree in Enneagram communities. I've had the opportunity of talking to people who, figuratively, put typing in a pedestal. They start looking for friends and partners simply for their type; disregarding any other person who doesn't has the "ideal" type; forgetting that, although types have influence in how we act or perceive the world; life experiences (joy, happiness, sadness, rage, etc.) the ones that forge us in the end and make us who we are. And, that's something no one should ever forget.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Animal said:


> I had not looked or remembered the statistics but in my personal experience 3s are most rare. Of course, I would not type anyone with certainty unless I knew them very well and in most cases, received some contribution from them directly in the process. But that being said, it seems more rare to me, for whatever that's worth. I can also buy that a larger proportion of 3s are somewhere at the top of some ladder working constantly, and this is why I've never met them.


LOL I find it amusing because I know more 3s than any other type (even 6 and 9) :tongue: I think this could be a case of... that phenomenon where we notice what we "want" to. I'm "drawn" to type 3, so it makes sense that I know more of them. You might not be drawn to 3s, so you might overlook them.



Animal said:


> This is the problem. I've seen people becoming worked up because there are "so many 4s" on perc and not enough 3s. Let's think about this for a moment, though. 4s are _more likely_ to want to spend hours of their day posting about who they are and human psychology. 3s are _more likely_ to feel, after doing this for an hour here and there, "I really should be getting something done. This is a waste of my day."


TBH I think that's somewhat of an easy way out. People make the same argument about Sensors being less numerous than iNtuitives on PerC, but that doesn't mean there's not mistypes going around. I loathe any argument with uses type as a basis of interest/hobby, because neither system is a way to predict behavior or skill.

Besides, it's not so much that I (because I can't speak for anyone else) think there should be less 4s and more 3/7/8s, but more that it's _highly unlikely_ that ~50% of PerC conveniently falls into types 4 and 5. IMO, there's probably more of an even distribution -- especially with types 1 and 2, both of which have practically-dead subforums.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Paradigm said:


> Besides, it's not so much that I (because I can't speak for anyone else) think there should be less 4s and more 3/7/8s, but more that it's _highly unlikely_ that ~50% of PerC conveniently falls into types 4 and 5. IMO, there's probably more of an even distribution -- especially with types 1 and 2, both of which have practically-dead subforums.


Tbh I think you both might have a point. Like I can see type 4s being more attracted to spending time on such a forum than 3s, but I do think there are probably a decent amount of mistypes as well. I guess I think it's best not to assume either way.

(And I'm not sure how many 3s I actually know (I'm kinda bad at typing people), but they don't seem to be uncommon, no.)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Nonsense_ @_Paradigm_

First of all, I didn't realize it was 50% of PerC - that is a lot! haha.

Yeah.. there are definitely mistypes, and 'glamorization' of certain types over others does not help matters. This is one of the many reasons I fight the "4s are rare" myth. Aside from simply believing its inaccurate, or if it is accurate, it has yet to be 'proven.'


I realize there are more mistypes in that direction than others, but this is the way I see it: let's take type 8 for instance. People will jump on any 8 type or mistype and insist they "prove their 8ness" and dig into all their posts and laugh at them. Sometimes they are utterly laughable, clearly "flexing their muscles" - but this is usually men. Sometimes women mistype at 8 and then misogynists start hounding them. To be fair I haven't seen this behavior on the forum in a while, but then again I haven't been spending time on the 8 forum. I don't think this helps people to "not type at 8." In my case, I received REASONABLE arguments against my mistype, and took them into consideration, but I was almost too busy being annoyed at the presumptions being thrown at me, and I wanted to 'disprove all the bullshit myths.' If someone was going to propose I'm mistyped, fine; I never went the route of "proving my case" or "defending my 8 typing." The route I went in arguments was "This is theoretically unsound…" 

But deep down, I felt, why is this type being treated like it's more important than others? Why wasn't I hounded by all the people who think I'm a 7 or a 4 or a 1 when I was mistyped at 3? It made it a lot HARDER to post on the forum. If I'd been in a situation where people would post on the 8 forum about issues plainly, minus the bullshit , I might have realized sooner "I don't fit in here" or "there's a difference between me and them / me and the text being presented here." I'm not , by any means, "blaming" the forum for my mistype or how long it took, but simply explaining how it affected my experience on the forum. Nobody bothered me about other mistypes (except respectful suggestions) so I just used the forum as a learning experience, keeping in mind that many other people are probably mistyped too, but discussing ideas, theory, and sorting through it. That is a much nicer experience for me. So for this reason I prefer not focusing on 'the kool specialz types' being mistypes as much as just taking the emphasis off "cool types" altogether and treating it all like an equal experience. That MIGHT help things. Or maybe i'm just an idealist. >.>


Outside the perc community, when a friend of mine types at 6, she will make a CASE for her typing, like "NO I am NOT a 4 or an 8 because xyz" - just as likely as any other type. That's why I feel like the forum DYNAMICS themselves are contributing to this problem.



Also, @_Paradigm_

The comment about "not noticing 3s" makes sense. I tend to gravitate to 6s most frequently and intensely, as the whole forum is well aware of by now. roud:


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Most people are not willing to be honest with themselves let alone others, to realize their deepest fear and motivations. I find that is because of the judgement that goes on here sometimes. Like people who have been banned before for trying to "forcibly type" 

If there was an atmosphere more conducive to raw sharing, like @Animals deepest wound thread.. that would be awesome for everyone to discover themselves I think.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

I was reading some old conversations with @Animal because I am putting something together and wanted to research the time lines. I realized that everything that used to bother me, hurt me about my past and family.. does not anymore because of the support I have gotten from very close relationships I have made on here that gave me the courage to work through them..and poof. gone
I am no longer half as cold aloof and fucked up as I was last january when I first posted, after lurking since November.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeoCat said:


> I was reading some old conversations with @_Animal_ because I am putting something together and wanted to research the time lines. I realized that everything that used to bother me, hurt me about my past and family.. does not anymore because of the support I have gotten from very close relationships I have made on here that gave me the courage to work through them..and poof. gone
> I am no longer half as cold aloof and fucked up as I was last january when I first posted, after lurking since November.



I feel similarly.

And I didn't mean to emphasize the negative stuff. PerC has generally been an insanely positive, growing experience for me. I've made amazing friends, and I've overcome so many issues and untangled so many knots thanks to this journey. <3

I share your sentiment here entirely.

My previous post is just my rant about this one point, the "special types" issue, which I suppose is one way in which I think PerC could use some improvement. Especially since many people come here who are traumatized, tortured, mentally or physically ill, going through rough times etc. But that is by no means, a declaration of hatred for this community at large. 98% of the community has never been cruel to me about any mistype or really for any reason at all.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

I didn't even notice you emphasized the negative stuff. It did not seem so to me.


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

LeoCat said:


> Most people are not willing to be honest with themselves let alone others, to realize their deepest fear and motivations...
> 
> If there was an atmosphere more conducive to raw sharing, like _Animal's_ deepest wound thread.. that would be awesome for everyone to discover themselves I think.


I was going to say that it's not always because people aren't willing to be honest but because it's something hard to accomplish, but then I realized that wasn't what you were talking about. I mean, I'm saying this because I struggle with it, even if admitting it is hard (and admitting it's hard oddly relieves me). I punish me enough for not being as able as I should. 

I feel the raw sharing is maybe a bit off-putting for some people. It was for me. Not because what you said was off-putting but because what I could say didn't belong there. I don't think I have a deep wound, fortunately or maybe I'm just downplaying it. It feels imaginary, exaggerated. I cannot tell something like that. I'll make a fool of me. But I agree that a self-revealing environment nourishes self-exploration, even if you're not directly taking part of it, just being a lurker.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

This has likely been mentioned already in the thread, but it _really annoys_ me when people insist on correlating MBTI and the Enneagram, especially in self-typing. I don't mind combining the two to explain differences and manifestations, and I agree some combinations can be a little questionable (ENTP 2w1?), but people really gotta stop with this whole "I can't be 4w3 because all INFPs are 4w5s" thing (and any other variations thereof).


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Paradigm said:


> I agree some combinations can be a little questionable (ENTP 2w1?)


Hahahaa. I lol'ed IRL.

I agree with you though. But just trying to picture an ENTP 2w1 made me smile.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Animal said:


> Hahahaa. I lol'ed IRL.
> 
> I agree with you though. But just trying to picture an ENTP 2w1 made me smile.


Sounds kind of cute, actually.


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

Cognition is not the same as your fears, wounds and drive though. 

So the two should not even be intermingled. 

I do agree a Ti dom 2 must have some serious dichotomy going on between mind and heart. But its not impossible. A lot of thinkers are incredibly gentle and sensitive inside. 
A lot of feelers are callous and obsessed with themselves.



Then people stereotype and guess someones mind based on half assed "facts" they twist to support their theories. Instead of actually asking them how they process or see the world.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

I nominate myself as editor and publisher.


On topic, how can there be things to complain about on this forum???


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## Fallen_Jedi (Sep 13, 2011)

> *4**. People forget the purpose of the enneagram
> 
> The enneagram was developed so that people would become aware of fixed behavior/compulsions that continually interfere in their life (and so that eventually you can work on them). In other words, the purpose of it is to overcome your fixed behavior... and not to get stuck in it.
> *


This one bothers me the most. It misses the point completely.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

It annoys me when someone wants someone else to post pages of type descriptions from a book.

I can understand short excerpts to carry on a discussion, but posting large segments of a copyrighted book to the Internet? Buy the book if you're that interested!


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

enneathusiast said:


> It annoys me when someone wants someone else to post pages of type descriptions from a book.
> 
> I can understand short excerpts to carry on a discussion, but posting large segments of a copyrighted book to the Internet? Buy the book if you're that interested!


Naranjo's CN was already floating around on several forums. Plus, it's an old ass book so whatever @ people posting it. In general, I have to say that it annoys me when people ask others to post entire chapters from books on the public forum. I might like it when someone posts chapters of a book I don't have XD, but I sure as fuck don't go asking for it. It's the cheap requests asking people to post something for all the types that annoy me.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Anyone who correlates intelligence with a type: as in" X is too much of an intellectual to be type Y".

Nope. Intelligence or lack there of is not related to type and that goes for MBTI/Socionics, as well.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> Anyone who correlates intelligence with a type: as in" X is too much of an intellectual to be type Y".
> 
> Nope. Intelligence or lack there of is not related to type and that goes for MBTI/Socionics, as well.


Amen


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

What annoys me is people who profess to know all about the types, yet don't know the types well enough to even type themselves correctly. If you can't understand yourself very well using the types then what makes you think you could understand others any better? I think people at this stage simply need to spend the majority of their time focusing on understanding their own type first before they start telling others about others' types.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Misusing the Enneagram to insult people: such as "you're such a freaking mistype; you need to move out of your parents' basement". The exact same thing happens with Jung and MBTI. Meh.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Superficial understanding of the theory. Basically.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Assuming a mistype based on human factors. Seriously, a man-made system is never going to account for all the differences in humanity. Any typing is going to be a "best fit." Just because you (they) don't follow every stereotype doesn't mean you're (they're) mistyped.

Also, typing based on stereotypical reasons, like 5 = bookworm/introvert. But that's an obvious, oft-stated annoyance.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

The assumption that id is related with extraversion and ego with introversion.
Lots of bad lining up of the system to mbti by people with probably superficial understanding of both.


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## Jerdle (Dec 30, 2015)

Bump.

The number of triple aggressive types.

The assumption that 458s are all mistyped.

The hate for type 6.

The anti-Fe/Si bias. (An an INTP, my dual type is ESFJ)

The intuitive bias.

The assumption that SPs and NJs don't exist.


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

The only thing I disagree with is 9w1 being perceived as an "uncool" type =D


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

People. It is people that cause these issues. Especially certain people.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

[mispost, delete please]


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Animal said:


> People. It is people that cause these issues.


I was about to post that. Now I'll just repost it by quoting you.


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