# Horrible guilt(keeping me from sleeping)



## rosegeranium (Apr 1, 2013)

yet another intj said:


> I didn't mean to sound harsh but "being guilty in the big picture" is something that she have to genuinely consider. Her current mindset have a tendency to rationalize insignificant details with a flawed logic and prevents any teaching from her own mistakes.


Emotions aside, my guilt is a result of worrying about said person's state of being without my support. However, the fact is that the relationship was established under the premise of,"You get back on your feet, then you go." I did not want his money, nor would I want any man's money, and would have refused his money because I did not want to build such a relationship. It was all under the premise of getting back on your feet, making money for yourself, then leaving. I believe he may have looked at the relationship in the false light that you are seeing it in, that it was all about me wanting something he couldn't give.

As to the sexual nature, I did not enjoy sex with him because I did not want a serious, long term relationship. However, I engaged in it because I thought it was the natural thing to do and that perhaps I was being uptight if I didn't. 

What hurt me was to see a person suffer and then tell lies about me. I said over and over again that the objective was for him to get on his feet and go, he abandoned opportunities to do so and did not respect my environment. My offerings were never valued. I was blamed for being unkind when all I did was give and be honest,clearly stating the boundaries of the relationship. My weakness was probably being too nice.

EDIT: You are basically saying that I manipulated someone into not taking personal responsability for themselves. This is false and is really not possible. If I manipulated this person by caring about them and being nice, then too bad, that is what human beings are meant to do. However, I did not take responsability for myself by allowing things to continue in the way they were out of fear for the person's wellbeing.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> I didn't mean to sound harsh but "being guilty in the big picture" is something that she have to genuinely consider. Her current mindset have a tendency to rationalize insignificant details with a flawed logic and prevents any teaching from her own mistakes.


I'm sorry but in my current mood that just cracked me up. I hope I can keep this kind of humor up until morning. Seriously, I am still laughing. And I have to thank you for that!

IDK though--do INTJs and INFJs both view people as investments? Because that was what I was driving at. I'm sure I'm guilty of what you described with the rationalizing details and flawed logic.

But I just feel like the OP isn't really describing guilt. And I certainly think it was wrong of him to suggest that he needed the help so he could hold a successful job, but I also don't think it was her responsibility to try to make that happen for him. The only lesson I think she needs to learn is that she cannot be responsible for another person's choices in their life (like, if they choose to be a dick during phone interviews). 

I just feel like her anger is misdirected--it shouldn't be directed at trying to change him or get his butt in gear, but it should be directed towards rejecting people who purposefully mislead about their intentions, if that is what he did.

But I kind of feel like this might be a MB type thing too.

Yes, I'm still laughing. But not in a mean way--it's just very funny.


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## rosegeranium (Apr 1, 2013)

meltedsorbet said:


> I'm sorry but in my current mood that just cracked me up. I hope I can keep this kind of humor up until morning. Seriously, I am still laughing. And I have to thank you for that!
> 
> IDK though--do INTJs and INFJs both view people as investments? Because that was what I was driving at. I'm sure I'm guilty of what you described with the rationalizing details and flawed logic.
> 
> ...


I never saw this person as an investment. I had established that the relationship was to end when the person got back on their feet. My anger is directed toward being mislead and disrespected. Actually, it's not really anger, if you noticed. It's guilt, truly. I did not want the change the person I just wanted them to go on with their lives and do well.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> I didn't mean to sound harsh but "being guilty in the big picture" is something that she have to genuinely consider. Her current mindset have a tendency to rationalize insignificant details with a flawed logic and prevents any teaching from her own mistakes... The good old blame games.


I want to explain why I was laughing because I don't want to offend you. I know laughter can be a mean thing sometimes. I just read your reply and did not get it at first and I thought it was really funny that you were justifying your position to someone who did not understand what you were saying. And also--it's just so funny. But I'm not trying to mock you or anything. I just need to laugh sometimes and I'm happy when it happens.

Edit: Also, I have to admit that I was attracted to this thread because in my sleep deprived, alcohol enhanced state I kept considering how it would be if the title was "Horrible quilt (keeping me from sleeping)." I know that's a really bad reason to read a serious thread. 



rosegeranium said:


> I never saw this person as an investment. I had established that the relationship was to end when the person got back on their feet. My anger is directed toward being mislead and disrespected. Actually, it's not really anger, if you noticed. It's guilt, truly. I did not want the change the person I just wanted them to go on with their lives and do well.


Well I really believe that you are not responsible for the choices that this person will make in their life. They may do well by your standards or they may not. But you can't change that for them. If you really care about the person then you can hope they do well but it's ultimately up to them what they do with their life.

I don't think you should feel guilty, but if you did do anything that you regret then I think you should reflect on that and choose to change it in the future. You don't have to feel guilty for another person's choices--that is not your responsibility.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

rosegeranium said:


> Emotions aside, my guilt is a result of worrying about said person's state of being without my support. However, the fact is that the relationship was established under the premise of,"You get back on your feet, then you go."


Now you know... Nothing is that simple.



rosegeranium said:


> I did not want his money, nor would I want any man's money, and would have refused his money because I did not want to build such a relationship.


You already built it.



rosegeranium said:


> As to the sexual nature, I did not enjoy sex with him because I did not want a serious, long term relationship.


You are knee deep in contradictions. You have a relationship and you had sex, those are solid facts. If you don't want/need a serious relationship, you shouldn't start one. You supported somebody emotionally beyond your sustainable capacity and even helped him to survive. Did you ever thought... The possiblity of... Umm... His unhealthy attachment?



rosegeranium said:


> However, I engaged in it because I thought it was the natural thing to do and that perhaps I was being uptight if I didn't.


You said that he was the needy one... Another contradiction. You were needy just like him and he also relieved your spiritual hunger. Nothing can satisfy an INFJ like projecting benevolence beyond logic. You probably wanted to abused by his dependence/needy attitude at first. After all, you realized it was wrong... Time to blame others, you did nothing wrong and stuff.



rosegeranium said:


> What hurt me was to see a person suffer and then tell liesIf about me.


Your conscience disagree with you. You can try to rationalize your "mysterious" guilt and play cyclical mind games but it's not going to solve anything.



rosegeranium said:


> I said over and over again that the objective was for him to get on his feet and go, he abandoned opportunities to do so and did not respect my environment. My offerings were never valued. I was blamed for being unkind when all I did was give and be honest,clearly stating the boundaries of the relationship. My weakness was probably being too nice.


Typical passive-agressive INFJ arrogance: "_I was wrong! Why? Because I was "too" nice._"



rosegeranium said:


> EDIT: You are basically saying that I manipulated someone into not taking personal responsability for themselves. This is false and is really not possible. If I manipulated this person by caring about them and being nice, then too bad, that is what human beings are meant to do. However, I did not take responsability for myself by allowing things to continue in the way they were out of fear for the person's wellbeing.


No... I'm saying this: You started something that you shouldn't be involved and it's gone too far beyond your understanding. You "should" leave him, that's the right thing to do... The thing is, you were wrong and some of his accusations are achingly rational. You promised things with your warmth and your formal rejection/denial of responsibility with words means nothing to him.



meltedsorbet said:


> IDK though--do INTJs and INFJs both view people as investments? Because that was what I was driving at. I'm sure I'm guilty of what you described with the rationalizing details and flawed logic.


People as investments? I think so... Our effort for understanding is something special in personal level, it's not a homogeneous attitude towards everybody. I trust people to feel "not betrayed". In the other hand, that's why I never trust them.



meltedsorbet said:


> But I just feel like the OP isn't really describing guilt. And I certainly think it was wrong of him to suggest that he needed the help so he could hold a successful job, but I also don't think it was her responsibility to try to make that happen for him. The only lesson I think she needs to learn is that she cannot be responsible for another person's choices in their life (like, if they choose to be a dick during phone interviews).


An INFP trying hard to solve some kind of ambiguity with her sterile naivete... Cute!



meltedsorbet said:


> Yes, I'm still laughing. But not in a mean way--it's just very funny.


Good for you... Enjoy your reduced cortisol levels.



meltedsorbet said:


> I just need to laugh sometimes and I'm happy when it happens.


Yay... I guess.


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## rosegeranium (Apr 1, 2013)

yet another intj said:


> Now you know... Nothing is that simple.
> 
> 
> You already built it.
> ...


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

rosegeranium said:


> But I was very communicative, he was not and would insult me when I would try to reason.


People have a tendency to insult if you caused emotional/physical suffering. It doesn't mean that he hate/blame you about everything, he need to digest what is going on. You didn't hurt him on purpose but that's not going to provide him any relief. The nature of things, it's not going to be easy as you expect.



rosegeranium said:


> And of course I made unhealthy attachments as well, but I did not want to use or hang on to this person. I was just really worried about the person because I didn't want him to mess himself up unecessarily. I was very naive, I did not look for the signs. I just thought he would do what he needed to do to get on his feet, and he didn't. It's not like I think it's easy. But in the mean time, my environment was respected less and less and when I tried to voice my anxiety about it I was ignored or insulted.


Being an INFJ sounds like being Jesus. I wish you listened what Judas said, he is one of my fellow INTJs: "_All your followers are blind, too much heaven on their minds. It was beautiful, but now it's sour... Yes it's all gone sour._"





 


rosegeranium said:


> I realize that he made an unhealthy attachment to me. But I was not manipulating with emotions or sex. I would communicate, trying to establish the boundaries. I gave sex as a gift, not really for my own personal pleasure.


It's your nature... You are manipulative beyond your understanding, INFJs are dangerous about that. You have no idea about your own subtle gravitation and addictive properties.



rosegeranium said:


> In a sense, yes, much of what I say is logical fallacy. The main issue, really, was expecting respect and cooperation where it was due and not getting it. I realize that I sound like I am hiding behind my argument, pointing fingers at the "bad man", but I truly did not manipulate this person emotionally, unless you consider me being sweet and nice manipulation, which was my undoing.


Again... You "never meant to manipulate" this person emotionally... But... You manipulated him beyond your wildest predictions. You are not guilty "guilty" but you are responsible.



rosegeranium said:


> I was nice because I truly felt his suffering, because I too have suffered, and seen others suffer. I would not be posting any of this, however, if he had communicated more with me and respected the boundaries I laid out for my enviroment, and tried to cooperate.


I love INFJs delicate tragedies, not as an entertainment for sure.... You know... It's always achingly beautiful.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> People as investments? I think so... Our effort for understanding is something special in personal level, it's not a homogeneous attitude towards everybody. I trust people to feel "not betrayed". In the other hand, that's why I never trust them.
> 
> An INFP trying hard to solve some kind of ambiguity with her sterile attitude... Cute!
> 
> Good for you... Enjoy your reduced cortisol levels.


Thanks for that! I strive to be cute and have reduced cortisol levels.

Why is my attitude sterile though? 

Is it sterile because it won't lead to anything creative? I think it's pretty darn fertile because it is about developing boundaries and the conservation of creative energy. 

And I don't see people as investments because most situations will teach me something, so I suppose I automatically get my investment back regardless of the outcome, or choices another person makes (unless it's to kill me because I can't learn from that). 

I don't understand why you wouldn't trust someone who didn't feel betrayed, unless you betrayed them and that showed a lack of judgement on their part, which is much too complicated of a test for that. Or are you saying that other people's trust in you is uncertain, and that's why you don't trust them--because you can seem to betray them without your conscious intentions? 

Honestly, sometimes I wish I was an INTJ because you guys seem so good at finding the right path. However, i still disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Also, you can be kind of mean. And also, I doubt your ethics sometimes. And some of you can be kind of snobby. And sometimes you seem like you have blinders on. Also--you are a flatterer in a manipulative way!

And I find your "yay" insulting. And I can't believe you changed attitude to naivete. Ugh--the insult, the meanness. 

But I do enjoy your INTJ spots of clarity--which happen sometimes. And I enjoy that some INTJs stay up for way too long. Bah--I give up. Wake me up when you want to finish this--you know, to the death. LOL


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

meltedsorbet said:


> Thanks for that! I strive to be cute and have reduced cortisol levels.


Indeed, you should... Being cute and reducing your cortisol levels are very important for your general health.



meltedsorbet said:


> Why is my attitude sterile though?


You are trying to impersonate "a true neutral" and apparently it's your one and only priority. After all, you sound like an lawfull neutral who are trying to rationalize the ideas of a chaotic neutral. There's too many dilemmas and they can't be simply solved with those practical appoaches. Your motivation is pretty much "not saying anything possibly wrong" while trying to say something. I'm fine with that anyway, just sharing my opinion/answering your question.



meltedsorbet said:


> Is it sterile because it won't lead to anything creative?


I wish it was that easy.



meltedsorbet said:


> I think it's pretty darn fertile because it is about developing boundaries and the conservation of creative energy.


There's no such thing as "creative energy". Energy can be used for everything, including creation. There's no different types of energy for different purposes. By the way, efficiency is much more important than potential.



meltedsorbet said:


> And I don't see people as investments because most situations will teach me something, so I suppose I automatically get my investment back regardless of the outcome, or choices another person makes (unless it's to kill me because I can't learn from that).


It's not a good thing to see people as investments for sure. It's just an awkward trait of INXJ individuals. We are not directly malevolent but there's a neverending frustration about it's indirect form.



meltedsorbet said:


> I don't understand why you wouldn't trust someone who didn't feel betrayed, unless you betrayed them and that showed a lack of judgement on their part, which is much too complicated of a test for that. Or are you saying that other people's trust in you is uncertain, and that's why you don't trust them--because you can seem to betray them without your conscious intentions?


Trust is deceiving... I have no right to let others to betray me beyond their own understanding/control. I'm also aware of my own capacity and unpredictible nature as a human being. People like the sensation of "wholeheartedly believing something for a second" more than anything. That's what tragedies are made of... Hopes.



meltedsorbet said:


> Honestly, sometimes I wish I was an INTJ because you guys seem so good at finding the right path.


Because we are simply standing near the road instead of walking. There's no right path for us but our current standpoint in personal level, rest is our somewhat interesting observations form our static vantage point about others.



meltedsorbet said:


> However, i still disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Also, you can be kind of mean. And also, I doubt your ethics sometimes. And some of you can be kind of snobby. And sometimes you seem like you have blinders on. Also--you are a flatterer in a manipulative way!









meltedsorbet said:


> And I find your "yay" insulting. And I can't believe you changed attitude to naivete. Ugh--the insult, the meanness.


So, "yay" was... Insulting? Maybe next time I should say "boo" to sound polite enough.



meltedsorbet said:


> But I do enjoy your INTJ spots of clarity--which happen sometimes.


Sometimes? Come on!



meltedsorbet said:


> And I enjoy that some INTJs stay up for way too long.


I'm not living in your timezone. I know it's hard to believe but there's so many habitable continents but yours on Earth.



meltedsorbet said:


> Bah--I give up. Wake me up when you want to finish this--you know, to the death. LOL


Okay.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> Indeed, you should... Being cute and reducing your cortisol levels are very important for your general health.
> 
> 
> You are trying to impersonate "a true neutral" and apparently it's your one and only priority. After all, you sound like an lawfull neutral who are trying to rationalize the ideas of a chaotic neutral. There's too many dilemmas and they can't be simply solved with those practical appoaches. Your motivation is pretty much "not saying anything possibly wrong" while trying to say something. I'm fine with that anyway, just sharing my opinion/answering your question.
> ...


Alright--well, I appreciate your response. My post was kind of banal and it derailed the thread. I have to go re-evaluate the general direction that my life is going and reflect on all the poor choices I've made (like I do every morning).

Also, I didn't assume you were in the same time zone as me. 

And I don't really want to duel you anymore. 

I still stand by what I said in my post and it is true that I try not to say anything wrong at times. I kind of feel out what the issue is and then how I can communicate a solution or a concern without doing anything during communication that would undermine my solution. For example--if I am trying to tell someone not to feel guilty, then I don't want to accidentally slip something in there that they could feel guilty about even if I see some kind of issue with what they did. 
I try to cover medicine with sweet gelatinous substances so that it can go down easily, but I also don't want to hurt another person if I'm trying to give advice, so I prefer to keep the medicine mild until I can feel out the strength and constitution of the other person. It's how I deal with feely issues--but I'm not very good at it.

I would never have derailed the thread like this is I were very good at helping other people deal with their emotional issues.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

rosegeranium said:


> text



You did the right thing by kicking him out, but maybe you didn't do the right things when you were living with him. 
He depended on you psychologically and you didn't see, or ignored, that he needed different things from you than what you gave him. You said you gave him sex as a gift but didn't you think that he'd depend on you more after that? It's like you wanted him to become attached to you, because you felt a similar need as well, but denied it. You wanted to have a "business" kind of arrangement with him, but you invested more emotionally than you should have, and because he was in a vulnerable position he got attached. 
The guy is probably depressed, maybe middle-age crisis if he is that old.
So you probably were manipulative, but not in a conscious way, but rather because you weren't aware about what _you _wanted from your relationship.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

meltedsorbet said:


> Alright--well, I appreciate your response. My post was kind of banal and it derailed the thread.


I have no idea what you are talking about except derailing and it was also my fault.



meltedsorbet said:


> I have to go re-evaluate the general direction that my life is going and reflect on all the poor choices I've made (like I do every morning).


Same for everybody, including me.



meltedsorbet said:


> Also, I didn't assume you were in the same time zone as me.


Okay.



meltedsorbet said:


> And I don't really want to duel you anymore.


I'm not dueling with you. We just shared opinions and there's nothing negative but derailing... Again... I'm sharing the responsibility with you.



meltedsorbet said:


> I still stand by what I said in my post and it is true that I try not to say anything wrong at times. I kind of feel out what the issue is and then how I can communicate a solution or a concern without doing anything during communication that would undermine my solution. For example--if I am trying to tell someone not to feel guilty, then I don't want to accidentally slip something in there that they could feel guilty about even if I see some kind of issue with what they did.


No need to avoid from didactic mistakes. They are the inevitable results of our personal progress and our only true responsiblity in life is studying them carefully without any blame games or cyclical delusions.



meltedsorbet said:


> I try to cover medicine with sweet gelatinous substances so that it can go down easily, but I also don't want to hurt another person if I'm trying to give advice, so I prefer to keep the medicine mild until I can feel out the strength and constitution of the other person.


I always prefer intravascular injection.



meltedsorbet said:


> It's how I deal with feely issues--but I'm not very good at it.


Nobody knows how to deal with feely issues.



meltedsorbet said:


> I would never have derailed the thread like this is I were very good at helping other people deal with their emotional issues.


Yay?


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm curious OP. How old are you and how old is he?


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

yet another intj said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about except derailing and it was also my fault.
> 
> 
> Same for everybody, including me.
> ...


Dawwww! Thanks!

It's interesting that you used the example of intravascular injection because I was thinking of that exact analogy earlier. If you give someone a needle they might get hurt. That's why I try not to be too harsh when I'm trying to help someone deal with emotional things, because sometimes people have conflicting motivations for their own health and safety and I wouldn't want to give someone something that they might use to hurt themselves or others (though I can be harsh sometimes). Plus, because I don't know everything about the situation, I can't assume that no other serious complications could be triggered by an invasive treatment. 

And when I look at someone who is in emotional pain and who is trying to sort their lives out, I see someone who is vulnerable and who needs to be treated gently. I sometimes fail at this--like right now.

But when I am suffering emotionally, I really appreciate gentleness, and that's why I disagree with some of the things you have said.

So yay--thanks for sharing the responsibility for derailing the thread. I am going to stop now.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

meltedsorbet said:


> If you give someone a needle they might get hurt.


Not always... Some patients need a family doctor with good communication skills and some others needs a precise and cold blooded surgeon. I never hesitate to hurt anybody with a sting of my needle if he/she is already suffering.



meltedsorbet said:


> That's why I try not to be too harsh when I'm trying to help someone deal with emotional things, because sometimes people have conflicting motivations for their own health and safety and I wouldn't want to give someone something that they might use to hurt themselves or others (though I can be harsh sometimes).


INFJs are incredibly tolerant and understanding in personal level. I know that she's trying to understand our opinions and insights, instead of expecting a superficial backrub.



meltedsorbet said:


> Plus, because I don't know everything about the situation, I can't assume that no other serious complications could be triggered by an invasive treatment.


It's internet, roll the dice. She can correct/inform you about misunderstandings anyway.



meltedsorbet said:


> And when I look at someone who is in emotional pain and who is trying to sort their lives out, I see someone who is vulnerable and who needs to be treated gently. I sometimes fail at this--like right now.


Nobody needs treated gently or harsh on purpose. People should be exposed to different perspectives. Those unexpected stimuli could ignite a positive or a negative emotional impact. The thing is, anything that motivational for a person to change his/her own mindset is "progressive" beyond simply feeling better. Fragility is the problem, you can't make something durable by handling it with care. After all, It's a tricky business: Squeezing something fragile without pulverizing it.



meltedsorbet said:


> But when I am suffering emotionally, I really appreciate gentleness, and that's why I disagree with some of the things you have said.


Okay.



meltedsorbet said:


> So yay--thanks for sharing the responsibility for derailing the thread. I am going to stop now.


Me too.


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## StElmosDream (May 26, 2012)

@*rosegeranium*

I will be honest, as a deeply empathic INFJ I sense that your internalising 3 peoples issues: your own, his guilt projections and public hive mind fear of being seen as a bad person (which your not outside 'forcing him to leave his ex'... I vote not bad and takes 2 to make anything happen...).
Your next task is defining accountability and reflecting it back at 'offending parties' i.e. looking at each collection of feelings or thoughts belonging to 3 entities (role playing-role reversal if you wish) and analysing how each group influences you as a person; you'll start to see that it is a 40:60 ratio of yours and 'theirs' in mind....if need be tell each party in person that 'this is not my issue to bear, we're all adults here and I am not your Mother figure (your a grown man not a child by extension too), take blame too! 

Will end in scornful bitterness from this 'grown man' but you need to self preserve too and realise you have stretched yourself to a limit and your back wont hold anymore weight without breaking....


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## AnonymousCitizen (Apr 2, 2013)

I would genuinely like to hear his side of the story for the sake of balance. Call me a cynic, but I think there's more to this story than meets the eye. Seems too perfectly in your favour for my liking. But then again, maybe you are an extremely kind, loving, caring, compassionate person that snapped under high levels of stress produced by an all round selfish, lazy and ungrateful person. I don't know, just wondering what his side of this is.


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## yesiknowbut (Oct 25, 2009)

OP, you should not feel guilty for leaving him. I think you should consider feeling a bit guilty for not drawing the line in the sand sooner than you did.

Whatever your reasons for staying with this guy before, and I agree with others that your own need to be needed is in there somewhere... if you feel that the relationship you are in is no longer fulfilling for you then you have every right to leave it. The behaviour on his part that you are describing is abusive and controlling. Walk away and stay away.

But don't feel guilty. Own your past, warts and all. Look forward to your future. What have you learned from this?


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## Nirel (Oct 21, 2012)

So you basically took a man in to your home, cared for him and helped him financially. He turns out to be completely self absorbed and blames you for not giving him more?? Yes, I completely see the reasoning for your guilt.
Please go have a good night sleep, there's such a thing as too much of a good person.


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