# Depression Studies: What causes Depression?



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> Yeah. And then I expressed what I think about this. Is there a problem with that?
> Nowhere did I assume that it is a pop psychology or invalidated/ignored those studies. My focus was on what people can do with that even if it is indeed intelligence to blame and seeing what is beyond this correlation.
> 
> I got the impression that you are feeling attacked. Maybe there is a misunderstanding that I can correct, perhaps.


Sigh, I was replying to you pretty much even though you didn't quote me in the first place and then you implied that I was making it seem like it was a causation thing, then it was almost plebian of me to mention it in the first place. I forget what your criticisms are, they aren't straightforward enough.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

beth x said:


> Sigh, I was replying to you pretty much even though you didn't quote me in the first place and then you implied that I was making it seem like it was a causation thing, then it was almost plebian of me to mention it in the first place. I forget what your criticisms are, they aren't straightforward enough.


I see. To clarify, I didn't quote you because I was not referring to/criticizing you specifically.
And I don't think you specifically implied that there is a causation, you merely brought up studies and mentioned it as a good predictor. It isn't explicit, but the argument regarding isolation is a bit pointless without seeing intelligence as a cause. Which is alright, I don't see any problems with that.

Anyway, my point is that intelligence is a tool. Knife isn't the cause of killing, and, similarly, intelligence can be either used to create counter-productive self-compromising mental constructs or it can be used to formulate solutions to them, as was suggested in the conclusion of the linked research paper :


> The highly intelligent individual has a remarkable capacity for seeing and internalizing these vast uncertainties, possibilities, and problems. *This gift can either be a catalyst for empowerment and self-actualization or it can be a predictor of dysregulation and debilitation as the present results suggest*. If these individuals take in their world in such an overexcitable manner intellectually (hyper brain), then the potential exists for an intense level of physiological processing as well (hyper body).


The point behind criticizing this idea is not only because it doesn't make sense, but also because it doesn't offer any solutions.

Because If intelligence is the cause, then the elimination of intelligence or everything that causes it has to be the only solution.
And If the existing "science-based" methods of treatment aren't aimed at that, then they have to assume a different cause. Or they refuse to make any conclusions and treat it symptomatically.

Personally, I also just feel annoyed when people explain their miserable state through their "brilliance" or "knowing too much" while each and every argument they make can be easily refuted. They may be trying to find some comfort/solace in this idea, but, ironically, it is a rather stupid application of their brilliance if it truly exists, because, as I've stated, it doesn't lead to any solutions (which should be perceptible through mentioned brilliance). I am annoyed specifically because people keep on suffering in the end uselessly.


----------



## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Intelligence may or may not be a direct cause of depression, but I think it's unlikely. A few things mentioned in this thread are correlated with self-reporting as unhappy, and we can connect intelligence with those things.

Being either exceptionally intelligent or unintelligent can make people feel alienated from others, and if one doesn't connect well, they might not be able to find friends, other people willing to support them, or someone they feel they can trust.

Being anxious or feeling powerless probably has a more complex relationship with intelligence. One would probably need to be smart enough to be the kind of person that learns about the world's problems but then not recognize their locus of control. Something like that.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> I see. To clarify, I didn't quote you because I was not referring to/criticizing you specifically.
> And I don't think you specifically implied that there is a causation, you merely brought up studies and mentioned it as a good predictor. It isn't explicit, but the argument regarding isolation is a bit pointless without seeing intelligence as a cause. Which is alright, I don't see any problems with that.
> 
> Anyway, my point is that intelligence is a tool. Knife isn't the cause of killing, and, similarly, intelligence can be either used to create counter-productive self-compromising mental constructs or it can be used to formulate solutions to them, as was suggested in the conclusion of the linked research paper :
> ...


Let's just make this thread all about your pet annoyances then.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

beth x said:


> Let's just make this thread all about your pet annoyances then.


As if that was all that I stated.

If you disagree with my arguments and want to discuss that, then feel free to do so.
Otherwise, I suggest you tone yourself down or back off if you cannot. I don't appreciate you being all personal and passive-aggressive with me for no reason. I wasted enough of my time refuting something that I didn't do or haven't implied.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> As if that was all that I stated.
> 
> If you disagree with my arguments and want to discuss that, then feel free to do so.
> Otherwise, I suggest you tone yourself down or back off if you cannot. I don't appreciate you being all personal and passive-aggressive with me for no reason. I wasted enough of my time refuting something that I didn't do or haven't implied.



Are you trying to police _my_ tone?

You haven't been refuting anything but changing your tact to say how annoyed you are by the way people might view ideas on depression. All you've done here is poo poo anything I've refuted with another poo poo. One of the pro tips that I would give you is this:

Depressed people don't care how you might be annoyed about the way they might see themselves as intelligent and yet in a low mood or whether you see that idea as a stupid non-solution. They don't care if you like the idea of ubermensching their way out of depression.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

beth x said:


> Are you trying to police _my_ tone?


I think that is what I just did, didn't I? If you are out of line, then you are out of your line, administrator or not.
Won't bother replying to the rest as, once again, it has little to do with what I actually meant. I never meant that I am annoyed at anyone who is actually going through the depression. Or any of the other bullshit that you associated with what I wrote.

I have a tip for you too though : 
If the opinion isn't straightforward enough, then try to re-read it or clarify what person actually meant if you care enough to reply to it, instead of jumping to assumptions out of nowhere and getting emotional/offensive at them.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> I think that is what I just did, didn't I? If you are out of line, then you are out of your line, administrator or not.
> Won't bother replying to the rest as, once again, it has little to do with what I actually meant. I never meant that I am annoyed at anyone who is actually going through the depression. Or any of the other bullshit that you associated with what I wrote.
> 
> I have a tip for you too though :
> If the opinion isn't straightforward enough, then try to re-read it or clarify what person actually meant if you care enough to reply to it, instead of jumping to assumptions out of nowhere and getting emotional/offensive at them.


I read what you had to say. I used the term not straightforward as it didn't seem worthwhile mentioning rather than not understanding what you wrote. I'm not out of line, nor passive aggressive. Nor offensive towards you. I said what I said because as it just seems like a cruel thing to say about anyone trying to understand their depression. I repeated the words you wrote about people claiming brilliance as a cause of their depression so you might understand what you said. It wasn't personal. I only repeated what you were saying about being annoyed. Although why you are annoyed by depressed people is something else. 

You don't know if it is a cause of depression in some people. You don't have all the cures or the answers. Nobody has. Depressed people don't suffer uselessly as people with cancer don't suffer uselessly. There are often no answers and sometimes only some glimmer for others while some suicide and others find what works for them as individuals. I think intrinsically you see it as a puzzle when there aren't really peices to put into it.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> According to a new article, scientists think that low serotonin isn't the only causing factor of depression, or _the _causing factor of depression.
> 
> I find this interesting. Like the article said, it could be many things. I think hormones might influence it too?
> 
> ...


You seem to have a simplistic understanding of this subject

So on a hormonal level Hormones can cause depression and these cases happen in hormonal imbalances

(These can be caused by Menstruation/Pregnancy/Hyperthyroidism/Diabetes/Puberty)

It can have situational triggers such as "Abuse/Rape/Neglect/Death of loved one/Occupation/Break ups/Moving/Relocations"

In certain disorders which cause delusions and hallucinations the individual might experience depression since they struggle to cope with their illness, function in everyday life and sometimes have issues trying to separate reality and their false perceptions.

It can be changed by things like Substances such as Alcohol/Weed/Prescription medication.

There's also been studies showing the idea that disorders being caused by "Chemical serotonin imbalance" is not a real thing. Also that a lot of times they give drugs to patients that will only work if the patients want them to. Meaning they are basically giving people "Placebos"


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

thedazzlingdexter said:


> You seem to have a simplistic understanding of this subject
> 
> So on a hormonal level Hormones can cause depression and these cases happen in hormonal imbalances
> 
> ...


Yeah I know how hormonal imbalances work and effects and of drugs, and PTSD, thanks.

Just didn't want to write an entire monologue.

I know how placebos work.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Yeah I know how hormonal imbalances work and effects and of drugs, and PTSD, thanks.
> 
> Just didn't want to write an entire monologue.
> 
> I know how placebos work.





Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Yeah I know how hormonal imbalances work and effects and of drugs, and PTSD, thanks.
> 
> Just didn't want to write an entire monologue.
> 
> I know how placebos work.


You asked what things cuase depression since you didn't know and thought it was only influenced by things like a chemical imbalance. Several things cuase depression and if you already know everything about depression why bother asking what cuases it? You can take pills but that's the same as taking cigarettes or alcohol to cure it. They might be effective but if there are factors causing it other than something biological you are not going to cure it with just drugs. This also applys to addiction.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

thedazzlingdexter said:


> You asked what things cuase depression since you didn't know and thought it was only influenced by things like a chemical imbalance. Several things cuase depression and if you already know everything about depression why bother asking what cuases it? You can take pills but that's the same as taking cigarettes or alcohol to cure it. They might be effective but if there are factors causing it other than something biological you are not going to cure it with just drugs. This also applys to addiction.


I just wanted to create a discussion thread what is so bad about that...

I know depression isn't going away with just pills. In fact they hardly do anything besides make you feel like some numb emotionless hollow meat bag. However, it works in a sense that you don't get an intense feeling of depression.

Of course drug addiction is the same.

I wasn't really asking personally, what causes depression, it was for thread title. It was more rhetorical, because I wanted to talk about it as a topic. However you are right I didn't know much about the cause... Well what I mean is, I thought traumatic events, anxiety, and everything else; _causes _a chemical imbalance in the first place.

But it seems it may be things to do with neurons as well.

I've had depression since I was 12 and I can narrow it down to a number of things:

Moving home when I was a kid: Didn't get to see my friends as much so I became lonely. I felt lonely for years. When I look back on it.

A few things that happened in between my childhood and teenage years.

I think puberty didn't help, with all the hormonal changes.

My brain may have changed slightly due to anxiety & trauma.

I'm the type of person to ask questions I already know things about because I want to create a discussion... 😅 And I am not confident in my own knowledge.


----------



## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

beth x said:


> I said what I said because as it just seems like a cruel thing to say about anyone trying to understand their depression.


Well, it might seem that way to you but it wasn't. Perhaps you should stop derailing the thread.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

beth x said:


> I read what you had to say. I used the term not straightforward as it didn't seem worthwhile mentioning rather than not understanding what you wrote. I'm not out of line, nor passive aggressive. Nor offensive towards you. I said what I said because as it just seems like a cruel thing to say about anyone trying to understand their depression. I repeated the words you wrote about people claiming brilliance as a cause of their depression so you might understand what you said. It wasn't personal. I only repeated what you were saying about being annoyed. Although why you are annoyed by depressed people is something else.
> 
> You don't know if it is a cause of depression in some people. You don't have all the cures or the answers. Nobody has. Depressed people don't suffer uselessly as people with cancer don't suffer uselessly. There are often no answers and sometimes only some glimmer for others while some suicide and others find what works for them as individuals. I think intrinsically you see it as a puzzle when there aren't really peices to put into it.


I'm sorry to have created a controversial thread, it seems! :/

I am definitely no neuroscientist, I just wanted to make more like an archive if anyone wants to read.

I'd love to study psychology, bit I think neuroscience would be too difficult for me.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> I just wanted to create a discussion thread what is so bad about that...
> 
> I know depression isn't going away with just pills. In fact they hardly do anything besides make you feel like some numb emotionless hollow meat bag. However, it works in a sense that you don't get an intense feeling of depression.
> 
> ...


This is is bit complicated. Things that cuase depression cuase a trauma response and your body reacts as though it's in danger. As far as mental illness your brain is basically rewiring itself to function in a way becuase mentally you can not handle a lot of trauma. Things like drugs mess with your mood as they block or inhibit certian functions. LIke alchohol is a depressant.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

DOGSOUP said:


> Well, it might seem that way to you but it wasn't. Perhaps you should stop derailing the thread.


For the love of dog don't you start too.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> I'm sorry to have created a controversial thread, it seems! :/
> 
> I am definitely no neuroscientist, I just wanted to make more like an archive if anyone wants to read.
> 
> I'd love to study psychology, bit I think neuroscience would be too difficult for me.


It really shouldn't be that controversial. Depression hits 1 in 7 people over their lifetime in Australia. 

Studying psych doesn't always have neuroscience involved as a unit. I studied it but only as a unit and not a degree. There are so many things to remember in it and it's hard for everyone in some way or another. Remembering brain chemicals and hormones and their interactions is complicated. The endocrine system alone is not completely understood and that's one aspect to take into consideration with neuroscience. Doctors do just give you different types of meds in the hopes that it works.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

DOGSOUP said:


> Yes I always thought in the majority of cases it was a trick. To make it seem like a chemical issue fixable by a pill + reprogramming yourself without addressing the causes which are societal because solving them require you to reorganize socially.


I agree the role of culture and environment is severely downplayed, likely due to the difficulty of addressing it under our current system, and often because it goes against a philosophy of "rugged individualism" .... it could take an entire volume to unpack. This essay was really eye-opening:

The Americanization of Mental Illness - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I'm always going to end up bringing up my own experience here, because it was just so glaring. I was put on antidepressants when I was 14 years old after I was living in poverty and witness to abuse and violence for several years. I got so depressed I stopped going to school, and that was a no-no. Literally not one mental health professional asked me about my home life or why I was having so much trouble, it was all framed as an assessment of my "symptoms" and addressing my "behavior problem" of refusing to cooperate in the education system. I was literally told my brain was broken and that is why meds were required. If I tried to talk about how I felt, they prescribed more drugs, so I clammed up and tried to hide everything. I developed a disconnect between what was happening in my life and my psychological state... I was taught they were separate things that shouldn't influence one another, and the latter was an unacceptable aberration. I experienced really disruptive side-effects from the drugs, as well, some of which took many years to recover from.

There are ways to overcome adversity without totally succumbing to a depressive state (strides in CBT are really promising... TEAM-CBT from Dr. David Burns is especially impressive), but an environment which strips away agency further - especially under the guise of helping - make it worse. The feelings I was having and the problems in my life were real. No one in my life, including me, would acknowledge that. I see this dynamic playing out in many, many cases of long-term depression.

Recently, the emergence of the term "moral injury" (distinguished from PTSD) allows for some recognition of the role environment plays in opening the door to conditions like depression. It was originally developed in the context of war, but it is a big step towards a more balanced view, imo. Personally, I think it is critical to recognize the role of environment in cause and recovery... rather than solely blaming the qualities of the individual and generalizing that to their whole person, making someone feel even less agency and more hopelessness/helplessness.

Moral Injury: How Collective Injustice Harms Us All | Psychology Today 

I definitely wish more of these tools and insights were available when I was young. It would have saved a lot of needless psychological and medical harm.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

beth x said:


> I don't think anyone did say intelligence was a cause for depression. Did they?


Rather than cause it,intelligence allows detection of it. Basically intelligence lets you introspect and notice the depression as detrimental which creates a feeding cycle.
Because yes, you can carry that shit without knowing it is there, without having a concept of it. Not having a concept of a problem being there is surprisingly detrimental to one's ability to solve it.

Intelligence is the readiness with which you notice patterns about you and your environment that you can repurpose to your ends. Basically the microscope doesn't create the pathogens, Jim, it lets you see them .


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Oops, duplicate.


----------



## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

secondpassing said:


> Being either exceptionally intelligent or unintelligent can make people feel alienated from others,


Genuine question. Dumb people feel alienated? I rarely see that, to be honest (but that's just my experience, I'm not sure). If someone is exceptionally unintelligent, doesn't that mean they lack self-awareness and thus the capacity to make a complex comparison to others? Or at least are unable to question what they have been taught? 
I have met people with severe cognitive issues, and more commonly than not, they "know" they're different because people tell them so, but they don't get why or even feel that way.


----------



## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> According to a new article, scientists think that low serotonin isn't the only causing factor of depression, or _the _causing factor of depression.
> 
> I find this interesting. Like the article said, it could be many things. I think hormones might influence it too?
> 
> ...


Two things :



> Monoamine hypotheses of neuropsychiatric disorders are decades out of date and no self respecting clinician or basic researcher believes that broad changes in monoamine (serotonin and catecholamines like dopamine and norepinephrine) levels are the cause of depression. Where some of that theory came about was that if you artificially deplete monoamines/catechols, people report symptoms consistent with depression.
> 
> It's also almost impossible to measure serotonin levels at the resolution needed to make definitive claims of their role. There are dozens of serotonin receptor subtypes all doing different things (part of why SSRI's have so many side effects is that serotonin mediates 50 different roles often in the same circuit mere micrometers away from each other). The real neurotransmitters that mediate most of our thoughts/behavior are glutamate (and gaba to an extent) and messing with glutamate with medication is probably near impossible if you want to avoid massive side effects.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1549884045953212423


----------



## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Ever time my bf dump me I go down the basement or the deep dark depressive drop of dreadfull damnation


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

So many interpretations of the term "intelligence" are being batted around, it's hard to keep up...



beth x said:


> Intelligence is a good indicator of whether you might get depression. Hormones and genetics could be a factor.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616303324


They used MENSA membership as an indicator of high intelligence. Then they state this about the demographics of the sample:



> Incomes were reported as their highest annual salaries earned rather than their current income to demonstrate potential earnings. Though 92 did not respond, of those that did, *41.7% earned over $100,000; 16.9% earned between $76,000 and $100,000; *20.1% earned between $51,000 and $75,000; 14.9% earned between $26,000 and $50,000; and 3.9% earned less than $25,000. For highest degree earned, 116 did not respond; of those that did, 3.7% earned a doctoral or post-doctoral degree,* 38.7% earned a master's degree, 29.2% earned a bachelor's degree*, 12.8% earned an associate's degree or completed a trade school or certificate program, 12.4% finished high school with no further education, and 0.1% did not complete any degree. *Overall, our sample reported higher education levels and higher income than national averages which supports prior literature citing a relationship between high cognitive ability and positive educational and socioeconomic outcomes* (Bergman et al., 2014).


It should be clear from the demographics that they are not isolating raw intelligence in their test sample, but no where do they mention this as a potential limitation of the study. Instead, they try to cover their asses by saying that intelligence is the causal factor for the demographics. All this study does it tell you about the diagnoses of the highest percentile MENSA members compared to the general public.

The fact they ran with the claim so hard is on the verge of being outright dishonest, imo.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Necrofantasia said:


> Rather than cause it,intelligence allows detection of it. Basically intelligence lets you introspect and notice the depression as detrimental which creates a feeding cycle.
> Because yes, you can carry that shit without knowing it is there, without having a concept of it. Not having a concept of a problem being there is surprisingly detrimental to one's ability to solve it.
> 
> Intelligence is the readiness with which you notice patterns about you and your environment that you can repurpose to your ends. Basically the microscope doesn't create the pathogens, Jim, it lets you see them .


Like Schrodinger's cat?

I think It (intelligence) can be either the salvation or the rabbithole for depression. There are treatments that don't work for some people because they can see through the "simple trick" of a treatment, like relaxation or hypnotism or they don't value the worth of a treatment, like their therapist seems less worldly than their client. This will be surely true of antidepressants now.

People can access information now to be able to try and use "the simple trick" to be able to stop themselves spiralling by identifying troubling behaviours and then creating their own circuit breakers before they spiral or goal setting in ways they can get through each day. 

There is 25% of the population who don't respond to therapies like meditative walkthroughs, or hypnotism. I remember doing this in class. We all had to lie on the floor and instead of being the relaxing part of the unit I reacted a little erratically first I had the giggles, I managed self control after a bit and then I went into a state of hypervigilance and in my own head sabotaged every suggestion that was mentioned and concluded in a couple of minutes that it was rubbish -all this while I lay there as still as everyone else. I even tried this in a professional setting for cessation of smoking. It didn't work but I did quit smoking at a later date without much effort - just made up my mind I would end it and that was that. The therapist did say I would do it by myself by just making my mind up, so I will give him that.

Also for treatment, if you don't really value a therapist's technique, you aren't going to get much from their service. Shopping around sometimes isn't possible as today we find that there aren't enough psychologists to go around for the problems people have found during COVID. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who are saying things like, how can the 12 year old possibly understand my gnarly old complex issues.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> So many interpretations of the term "intelligence" are being batted around, it's hard to keep up...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How would you look at doing a study for raw highly intelligent people?

Here is another one









Intelligence and neuroticism in relation to depression and psychological distress: Evidence from two large population cohorts


Neuroticism is a risk factor for selected mental and physical illnesses and is inversely associated with intelligence. Intelligence appears to interact with neuroticism and mitigate its detrimental effects on physical health and mortality. However, the ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> How would you look at doing a study for raw highly intelligent people?
> 
> Here is another one
> 
> ...


This study looks more rigorous and modest. Intelligence was measured by a battery of cognitive tests, rather than through MENSA membership, and this paper was arguing for a potential mediating effect of psychological distress in high neuroticism individuals, specifically. All relationships between MDD and intelligence were indirect, which is more reasonable considering the complexity.

It would be tough to tease out "raw intelligence" without having confounding factors or a bias in the measurement. That should be carefully assessed and acknowledged in any study design.

For some wider perspective, @ai.tran.75 posted an article a while back citing how higher reading comprehension among richer elementary students was not due to more conceptual ability, but due to greater access to general information than poorer students. When that factor was removed from the testing design, there was virtually no gap in comprehension. From that article:



> For a number of reasons, children from better-educated families—which also tend to have higher incomes—arrive at school with more knowledge and vocabulary. In the early grades, teachers have told me, children from less educated families may not know basic words like _behind_; I watched one first grader struggle with a simple math problem because he didn’t know the meaning of _before_. As the years go by, children of educated parents continue to acquire more knowledge and vocabulary outside school, making it easier for them to gain even more knowledge—because, like Velcro, knowledge sticks best to other, related knowledge.


Elementary-School Curriculum Is All Wrong - The Atlantic

If you consider something like the above, perhaps the mitigation effect seen is more about the quality of social and economic resources available to the person that also affect their ability to perform well on cognitive tests, rather than the cognitive ability itself.

Read their conclusion with that potential in mind:



> In conclusion, this study fails to demonstrate that intelligence confers protection to clinical MDD in those with high neuroticism. However, in both samples, a modest interaction was found in which higher intelligence appears to ameliorate the detrimental association between neuroticism and psychological distress.


To make a more convincing case for a relationship between intelligence and depression, the resource factor in performance on cognitive tests would be one thing to consider. One of many.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> This study looks more rigorous and modest. Intelligence was measured by a battery of cognitive tests, rather than through MENSA membership, and this paper was arguing for a potential mediating effect of psychological distress in high neuroticism individuals, specifically. All relationships between MDD and intelligence were indirect, which is more reasonable considering the complexity.
> 
> It would be tough to tease out "raw intelligence" without having confounding factors or a bias in the measurement. That should be carefully assessed and acknowledged in any study design.
> 
> ...


I agree that there are issues. I prefer the Gardner theory of multiple intelligences rather than IQ testing. There is also the value placed in the environment on reading and doing well in studies. It will probably always be a sticking point and you have to keep in mind the number of resources researchers might have when it comes to conducting surveys. They can be limiting.


----------



## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Nannerl said:


> Genuine question. Dumb people feel alienated? I rarely see that, to be honest (but that's just my experience, I'm not sure). If someone is exceptionally unintelligent, doesn't that mean they lack self-awareness and thus the capacity to make a complex comparison to others? Or at least are unable to question what they have been taught?
> I have met people with severe cognitive issues, and more commonly than not, they "know" they're different because people tell them so, but they don't get why or even feel that way.


Genuine answer. Does their comparison need to be so complex? Even beings with significantly lower intelligence can tell when they aren't welcomed by a group, and intellect is one measure people are scrutinized by. It's a very apparent trait. When you and I talk, I can tell you consider ideas and reasonings most people would not. When an average person and someone exceptionally unintelligent talk, they can tell the dumb person won't understand. Without compassion/respect (which our world is sorely lacking), dumb people are going to get judged for their intellect.

I don't know exactly how dumb you're talking about, but I was thinking the level of un-intellect that could be measured by being 1 to 2 standard deviations below average IQ. I think anything below that could be counted as a disability. I also don't know who you've met, (and you certainly may be correct that they don't feel alienated. I also don't have statistics to back up my claim) but the less intelligent people I've seen are concentrated in workplaces where the workers earn very little. They seem pretty lonely. I assume they wonder why people don't like them.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

beth x said:


> Like Schrodinger's cat?
> 
> I think It (intelligence) can be either the salvation or the rabbithole for depression. There are treatments that don't work for some people because they can see through the "simple trick" of a treatment, like relaxation or hypnotism or they don't value the worth of a treatment, like their therapist seems less worldly than their client. This will be surely true of antidepressants now.


In essence closer to the Observer effect than Schrodinger's cat. Adrenaline can essentially allow a person to function as normal without noticing they're walking on a broken leg, but when they do notice it behaviour changes immediately. The same is true of psychological injury, it transforms the way you look at yourself and the world.

Human cognition is essentially a double edged sword, because there's a lot of built-in pattern processing mechanisms that were once key to survival but in today's living context may actually backfire or enable rationalization of unhealthy thought patterns or coping mechanisms.
It doesn't help that all the shit we used to consult for this kind of thing is now obsolete and pretty much cancerous with cultural baggage to the point it's not serviceable. We have a track record as a species of sucking at keeping systems updated


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> I agree that there are issues. I prefer the Gardner theory of multiple intelligences rather than IQ testing. There is also the value placed in the environment on reading and doing well in studies. It will probably always be a sticking point and you have to keep in mind the number of resources researchers might have when it comes to conducting surveys. They can be limiting.


It is a good reason why treatment shouldn't be codified under unsubstantiated or weakly substantiated claims. This seems like it was a major oversight with the adoption of the serotonin hypothesis. 

Just citing random papers is a mistake... when you dig into them, you find all sorts of flimsy assertions (like "facts" being copied from a source three times removed from the primary, where the primary source didn't assert the "fact" at all). 

Personally, I'd think a key to discovering "root-level" causes of depression could be in the patterns of how/when people develop and then recover from it, rather than the presence or absence of it under some fixed (yet vaguely defined) condition. To use germ theory as an analogy... the discovery of the cause for infectious disease and subsequent effective treatment could not be fully understood by looking at a sick person and a healthy person and comparing their traits (or "humors" as was done in antiquity), then trying to "alter" their traits to prevent disease. I mean, you might achieve some mixed success. Instead, progress was made by looking at the conditions surrounding the transition from a healthy state to a disease state (and visa-versa) and testing those conditions to deduce what relevant changes occurred and why.

Of course, germ theory was also dealing with an "agent" that causes disease which has additional layers that don't apply, but the point is to illustrate a different way of investigating the problem that I don't see much in scientific literature when it comes to depression but would be illuminating.

I still maintain that depression is a socially attenuated condition. To point to some neurochemical or gene and say, "that is the underlying problem!" is kind of like saying the problem with a broken leg is pain receptors. 

When it comes down to it, we're all pretty much bound by biological processes, and plasticity under our heritage is what keeps us from immediately going extinct as a species.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Necrofantasia said:


> In essence closer to the Observer effect than Schrodinger's cat. Adrenaline can essentially allow a person to function as normal without noticing they're walking on a broken leg, but when they do notice it behaviour changes immediately. The same is true of psychological injury, it transforms the way you look at yourself and the world.
> 
> Human cognition is essentially a double edged sword, because there's a lot of built-in pattern processing mechanisms that were once key to survival but in today's living context may actually backfire or enable rationalization of unhealthy thought patterns or coping mechanisms.
> It doesn't help that all the shit we used to consult for this kind of thing is now obsolete and pretty much cancerous with cultural baggage to the point it's not serviceable. We have a track record as a species of sucking at keeping systems updated


lol I guess it is a broken leg metaphor kind of day


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> It is a good reason why treatment shouldn't be codified under unsubstantiated or weakly substantiated claims. This seems like it was a major oversight with the adoption of the serotonin hypothesis.
> 
> Just citing random papers is a mistake... when you dig into them, you find all sorts of flimsy assertions (like "facts" being copied from a source three times removed from the primary, where the primary source didn't assert the "fact" at all).
> 
> ...


It is an often cited paper and it's really not that much of an issue to state MENSA members with a large sample to reach their findings. They are also not the reasoning for the seratonin hypothesis which is around 50 years old.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Squirt said:


> lol I guess it is a broken leg metaphor kind of day


You are now breathing manually.
^ more like this.


----------



## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Squirt said:


> So many interpretations of the term "intelligence" are being batted around, it's hard to keep up...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> All authors have completed the Unified Competing Interest form at ICMJE | Disclosure of Interest (available on request from the corresponding author). SA declares no conflicts of interest. MAH reports being co-founder of a company in April 2022, aiming to help people safely stop antidepressants in Canada. MPH reports royalties from Palgrave Macmillan, London, UK for his book published in December, 2021, called "Evidence-biased Antidepressant Prescription." JM receives royalties for books about psychiatric drugs, reports grants from the National Institute of Health Research outside the submitted work, that she is co-chairperson of the Critical Psychiatry Network (an informal group of psychiatrists) and a board member of the unfunded organisation, the Council for Evidence-based Psychiatry. Both are unpaid positions. TS is co-chairperson of the Critical Psychiatry Network. RC is an unpaid board member of the International Institute for Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal.







__





expert reaction to a review paper on the ‘serotonin theory of depression’ | Science Media Centre






www.sciencemediacentre.org





as of now theres just a bunch of reviews done in high impact websites


----------



## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

What causes addiction?
What causes anxiety?
What causes Obesity?

I think depression is in the same league as above , the correct answer can never be fully answered because there are too many factors and no single cause.

Good evidence of that is that every known effective remedy is not a remedy for all, nor even most.

I'm not surprised that serotonin has been found ineffective at curing the root of depression. Not because it doesn't treat depression, but because low serotonin isn't the cause for all nor even most cases of depression. In many where it is effective, it may just be masking the root cause, effective enough to say that it feels like a remedy. Not unlike how enough morpheme can make a broken leg feel cured. For those people, it's probably fine to continue this, the line of SSRI medications has a low side effect profile. I do think however that this delays research into root cause, but at least some of these people get a reprieve so I'm happy for them.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Using dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin for depression while living in capitalism is kind of like busting your back at work, taking meds, going back to the same job and wondering why your back is not getting better.

Antidepressants are closer to painkillers. They are management tools rather than solutions. They make it easier to disconnect pain from suffering so you can still function but they aren't designed to solve the problem, just to put a buffer between it and yourself.


----------



## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

Necrofantasia said:


> Using dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin for depression while living in capitalism is kind of like busting your back at work, taking meds, going back to the same job and wondering why your back is not getting better.
> 
> Antidepressants are closer to painkillers. They are management tools rather than solutions. They make it easier to disconnect pain from suffering so you can still function but they aren't designed to solve the problem, just to put a buffer between it and yourself.


I would agree that this is true, but I also know some have a natural chemical imbalance that they were born predisposed to. It doesn't manifest as the same time/age for all, and in some it never does. For some the meds are the best solution, but I doubt this is true for most.

treating chronic pain with meds < treating chronic pain with Therapy < treating chronic pain with meds and therapy < preventing chronic pain < eliminating sources of chronic pain.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

chad86tsi said:


> What causes addiction?
> What causes anxiety?
> What causes Obesity?
> 
> I think depression is in the same league as above , the correct answer can never be fully answered because there are too many factors and no single cause.



Put the brush back in the Hangar plz.

They are often comorbid but they're wildly different problems. Rather than a single cause there are various combinations of risk factors in our upbringing and environment that interact with our genetics to beget thinking/behavior patterns that spiral and settle into presentations that fall within the umbrella of depression.

It's not as simple as detecting a pathogen and killing it, it's a problem involving many interacting parts in all sorts of sweet combinations. There's multiple ways to skin a depression.


----------



## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

chad86tsi said:


> I would agree that this is true, but I also know some have a natural chemical imbalance that they were born predisposed to. It doesn't manifest as the same time/age for all, and in some it never does. For some the meds are the best solution, but I doubt this is true for most.
> 
> treating chronic pain with meds < treating chronic pain with Therapy < treating chronic pain with meds and therapy < preventing chronic pain < eliminating sources of chronic pain.


I think a chemical imbalance certainly is a condition that exists and that deserves its own name but what we know currently as depression is a conglomerate that may or may not have a chemical imbalance component. Basically scope creep kinda happened with regards to diagnosis because we essentially delegate any existential crisis to shrinks instead of gurus now As medical understanding advances we should see more diverse language and classification.

I've heard of Brit shrinks calling it Shit Life Syndrome.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I agree with both Beth X and Squirt...

There are conditions when one cannot have control over their depression, or other things that lead to it.

Then there's in the middle when, you don't have full control but you can help yourself in some way.

And then I guess there's those with more control, but don't utilise resources more.

However that being said, it's still a battle for all sufferers.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Oh, I've heard so many stories from numerous people about doctors dismissing pain, or not giving them the adequate medication, because of supposed addiction...
> 
> It happened with some of my family members, one of them could have had fatal consequences if they didn't get second opinions.
> 
> ...


It did turn around but I don't think it was because of anything I was thinking but more of what I was doing (continuing to live my life). After a time the ruptured disc collapsed completely, and through retraining the way that I use everything, some physio and years the S1 and the L5 fused together and unpinched the nerve (not as bad as it sounds after all). I'm using antidepressants for pain associated with thyrotoxicosis (overactive thyroid hormones) that caused muscle atrophy and ate away at my ligaments too. I'm not sure if either is related in any way. Our family has a history of hormonal issues. 


Thanks


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> I'm using the term depression as it's supposed to be used as the umbrella term for the multiple different types of low mood.


Clinical depression isn’t an umbrella term for “low mood.” Low mood is a symptom of depression.

If you are talking about depression in a more casual sense, then we’re not talking about the same thing so what I was saying doesn’t really apply.

Like you said, treatment of the pain was what was useful for you - but I wouldn’t take that as very relevant for depression in general. I mean, you said you were given anti-depressants because the doctor didn’t want to give you real pain management medication. 

Chronic pain is also an important issue, so please don’t think I mean to diminish that experience. It sounds awful and I can see why you are passionate about it. I’ve known people with fibromyalgia who have trouble getting treatment because doctors don’t believe their pain is real. It pisses me off tbh.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> Clinical depression isn’t an umbrella term for “low mood.” Low mood is a symptom of depression.
> 
> If you are talking about depression in a more casual sense, then we’re not talking about the same thing so what I was saying doesn’t really apply.
> 
> ...


Clinical depression falls under the umbrella of depression. It's a term you use for all the different types of depression which include depression you get from a TBI, the depression you get postnatal, and all the other types of depression whether it be part of bipolar, or major depression. They are all relevant and all cost people their lives every day. People do suicide over chronic pain and telling them they need to do better somehow seems to me to miss the point of trying to understand the cause of it. 

I don't know how many times when I told people I was in pain you could almost hear the pin drop as their discomfort set in. "You look alright, surely it's not as bad as that, you look so fit". You mask pain both physically and mentally and become as isolated from others and begin to understand the fair weatheredness of people in general. Anyone with a mental illness and wearing the stigma of it can understand being an outsider and the discomfort of the normies.

I don't know if I'm passionate about this subject. I know people who have suicided and in the end it doesn't matter how they got depressed or what kind of depression it was. I am still trying to advocate for the people who are alive reading this and hope they can see past to the ideas of people saying depression is about the ideas moral failure, or that they choose to wallow or suffer uselessly. That's what I am more animated by. Depression isn't always about self loathing and maladaptive thinking processes it can be because or an organic change or being worn down from pain or dealing with hormonal changes or genetic disposition.


----------



## chad86tsi (Dec 27, 2016)

chronic clinical depression causes by a chemical imbalance, and chronic situational depression caused by some circumstance (emotional or physical trauma, or a variety of other external forces) should probably be approached with different remedies and treatment protocols. They should probably be given different classifications all together as their root causes are so different. Medicine should be focused on treating the root, not just treating symptoms.

I know for sure some in situational depression can benefit from chemical remedies. A friend got some relief from an ugly divorce by taking SSRI's. Is that a solution or just a treatment? If just a treatment, are there actual solutions not being taken advantage of due to the treatment? This can lead to long term suffering if solutions are available and not sought.

Some treat their problems with various drugs/alcohol combinations to cope. It might give some relief, but it doesn't solve problems. There are an awful lot of truths, and few are universal.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> Clinical depression falls under the umbrella of depression. It's a term you use for all the different types of depression which include depression you get from a TBI, the depression you get postnatal, and all the other types of depression whether it be part of bipolar, or major depression. They are all relevant and all cost people their lives every day.


Depression would be _concurrent _with an illness causing chronic pain. Psychological processes that are at play should always be considered if depression is present, even if other treatments are needed to manage the biological influences on mood.

managing_depression_in_physical_illness.pdf (cambridge.org) 



> Depression is more difficult to diagnose in patients with physical illness. The biological symptoms of depression include anorexia, weight loss, sleep disturbance, lethargy and psychomotor retardation, all of which may equally be due to the physical illness. *However, the consensus is that it is probably best to apply psychiatric diagnostic criteria without modification, while being aware of the risk of overdiagnosis, so that all symptoms are considered whatever their cause may be.* It is particularly important that the assessment focuses on the cognitive symptoms of depression. Somatic symptoms are used to support the diagnosis of major depression if they are severe, disproportionate to the medical illness and temporally related to the affective cognitive symptoms of depression. Hawton et al (1990) reported three cardinal affective symptoms that help to differentiate depression from non-depression in medical patients – depressed mood, morning depression and hopelessness. *Inappropriate guilt, feeling punished, lowered self-esteem and suicidal ideation are reported less frequently by patients with depression in a medical rather than a psychiatric setting. However, patients with depression who are also medically ill are more likely to feel anxious, pessimistic and helpless than those who have depression but are physically well. *Covert manifestations of depression include poor compliance or refusal of essential medical treatment. The number of somatic complaints is directly proportional to the likelihood of depressive illness in the medical as well as the psychiatric patient and they may present with abnormal or exaggerated illness behaviour, pain or other somatic symptoms rather than low mood.
> 
> It is also important to consider other potential causes of low mood in patients with physical illness. These include the normal and understandable emotional reactions to physical ill health. Adjustment reactions, for example those triggered by the stress of physical illness, are the most common psychiatric diagnosis, affecting approximately one-quarter of general medical patients. Psychological symptoms of depression are common in delirium, particularly quiet or hypoactive delirium, which is often referred as depressive illness for psychiatric assessment (Meagher, 2001). Differentiating between the two conditions is particularly relevant to allow early treatment and avoid potential increased confusion resulting from the anticholinergic side-effects of antidepressant therapy. Substance misuse also needs to be considered as relevant to lowered mood in a number of ways, such as in a patient whose increasing alcohol misuse has resulted in a severe exacerbation of psoriasis.* In organic affective disorders such as hypothyroidism, it is important to treat the underlying physical condition appropriately and then to reassess mood before considering antidepressant medication. *Finally, a trial of antidepressant therapy may be useful in diagnostic dilemmas.


The above sounds reasonable, correct?



> People do suicide over chronic pain and telling them they need to do better somehow seems to me to miss the point of trying to understand the cause of it.


I was not telling anyone "they need to do better somehow" ... that is literally the opposite of what I was saying. I commented on the rigid idea that someone "must do better" is part of the problem. I don't believe bringing up "moral failure" is a punitive thing just because it contains the word failure, which seems to be what you're going on. I used the term "moral injury" earlier on, which is a similar frame. You can't understand it from just two words, which is why I was providing examples of how that would apply.



beth x said:


> I don't know if I'm passionate about this subject. I know people who have suicided and in the end it doesn't matter how they got depressed or what kind of depression it was.


It does matter if you want to treat it. I've heard ketamine can get someone through critical periods of suicide ideation, too, which would be another matter (like the difference between treating cardiac arrest and heart disease). Addressing the underlying cause would be the long-term goal, no matter what the illness.



beth x said:


> I am still trying to advocate for the people who are alive reading this and hope they can see past to the ideas of people saying depression is about the ideas moral failure, or that they choose to wallow or suffer uselessly. That's what I am more animated by.


This thread is not meant to be therapy for depressed people. It is a discussion about the potential causes of depression. If one thing doesn't apply to you, it doesn't apply to you.



beth x said:


> Depression isn't always about self loathing and maladaptive thinking processes it can be because or an organic change or being worn down from pain or dealing with hormonal changes or genetic disposition.


Organic changes, hormonal changes, chronic pain, genetic dispositions, immune changes, medications, etc. are going to affect emotional states, of course. However, we still have minds that can process and interpret those states in order to get through the day, and the power of that shouldn't be neglected or written-off, either.



beth x said:


> I don't know how many times when I told people I was in pain you could almost hear the pin drop as their discomfort set in. "You look alright, surely it's not as bad as that, you look so fit". You mask pain both physically and mentally and become as isolated from others and begin to understand the fair weatheredness of people in general. Anyone with a mental illness and wearing the stigma of it can understand being an outsider and the discomfort of the normies.


Yeah. If you listened to the podcast about the gal with cancer, she mentioned the same thing - she doesn't "look" like she has cancer, so people simply didn't believe her or didn't know what to do with the information and it made her feel isolated and unseen. I've had those feelings as well because of an "invisible" medical condition which confuses people when I can't do certain things. When I was young, I had a number of really bad experiences from it, including being spat on because I couldn't do something. 

I think this is a fairly common human experience - not everyone is going to understand you or be compassionate towards you. It sucks.

Again, I'm talking about depression as a general condition and/or my own experience of it, which may be helpful for some and not others. Many perspectives are great. It is not giving specific advice to any specific person for how to handle their personal situation. If someone is looking for advice in this, take what is useful, leave what isn't. That's all we can do. I mean, should there be a disclaimer or something? lol


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

beth x said:


> You cannot "literally wish yourself out of existence" it's your figurative expression.
> 
> This is not depression but more likely the road to depression.
> 
> ...


I agree that this toxic positivity is one passible result. However, amid the possible results is also a BALANCED result, which is empowering and realistic both.

Love offers us the choice. And choice can respect limitations. But weakness can exist that is a failure or that is more or less a current limit. One may have to work out, to expend effort in practice, before one can choose BOTH to be strong and to do the right thing with strength.

Wisdom is always the middle road between the delusional departures. Delusional worthiness does not match the intended or truly desired results JUST LIKE the delusional worthlessness does not. The balance is in the middle. The point being that either way, depression is not the right path and neither is overcompensating for it.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

series0 said:


> I agree that this toxic positivity is one passible result. However, amid the possible results is also a BALANCED result, which is empowering and realistic both.
> 
> Love offers us the choice. And choice can respect limitations. But weakness can exist that is a failure or that is more or less a current limit. One may have to work out, to expend effort in practice, before one can choose BOTH to be strong and to do the right thing with strength.
> 
> Wisdom is always the middle road between the delusional departures. Delusional worthiness does not match the intended or truly desired results JUST LIKE the delusional worthlessness does not. The balance is in the middle. The point being that either way, depression is not the right path and neither is overcompensating for it.


I’m with you until the last sentence. I know it is something we disagree on regularly in terms of worldview. You tend to see an objective morality rather than a relative one, right? I tend to think in terms of cause/effect and consequence, where morality is a subjective “rule” of conduct imposed on it. Perceptions of right and wrong can guide behavior contructively or destructively.

Within that context, believing depression itself is “not right” could easily lead someone down a destructive path. How would you reconcile that?


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> Depression would be _concurrent _with an illness causing chronic pain. Psychological processes that are at play should always be considered if depression is present, even if other treatments are needed to manage the biological influences on mood.
> 
> managing_depression_in_physical_illness.pdf (cambridge.org)
> 
> ...


Other illnesses are taken into account by medical doctors and referrals are made to specific psychologists who specialise in areas such as complex grief, PTSD, autism injury, pain,etc. Depression is an umbrella term for the different types of depression. 

I don't have the time to listen to podcasts or youtube. I am moving house atm. I speed read so I might read studies or pages that interest me and I might not. 

If we're talking about core philosophies - when I did my psych degree the term "do no harm" was a saying that was referred to a lot. I understand that there might be a lot of people who tell you "this is the way that it is" and "not everyone is going to be compassionate" I know this firsthand from my own experiences with PTSD but I don't have to be that way towards vulnerable people and I don't have to sit passively while others aren't compassionate.

My core philosophical treaty isn't Nietzsche and I'm sometimes reviled by the number of people who think that overcoming and becoming an ubermensche -whether they are aware that they are using the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" idea. I think what doesn't kill you scars you and makes you that much more susceptible. I tend to think along the same lines as Brene Brown who looks at vulnerability studies, that you choose empathy and you can choose to be kind to vulnerable people. 

Perhaps being depressed might be a state that shows us the reality of how very shitty the world is right now and we don't have to find a cure for it but reflect on how we got to have so many people struck down with this. Humans are social animals and those who are left behind don't fare well. Depressed people still have a lot to off us as people, as artists, authors, psychologists, and hospitality workers, in fact here is a list of jobs that have a lot of depressed people. I know that I never overcame any state of depression by not being compassionate to myself.

Individual differences are pretty much a course unto themselves and personality is a part of that. We covered many different types of personality theory along with MBTI.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> Other illnesses are taken into account by medical doctors and referrals are made to specific psychologists who specialise in areas such as complex grief, PTSD, autism injury, pain,etc. Depression is an umbrella term for the different types of depression.
> 
> I don't have the time to listen to podcasts or youtube. I am moving house atm. I speed read so I might read studies or pages that interest me and I might not.
> 
> ...


It seems like you are arguing against someone who holds very different views than I do, so I don’t know how to respond except to acknowledge your POV. I don’t really care about Neitzsche, either. I always liked the re-phrase: “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stranger.”

Not that it really means much and I’m not sure why I even thought of it, but this drawing of an answering machine sitting on a glass table, blinking in the middle of the night, seemed to encapsulate my depressive state when I drew it. It still shows up in my nightmares sometimes. An answering machine. I guess it is kind of funny.










Anyways, I hope your moving house is less stressful than this thread, lol.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> It seems like you are arguing against someone who holds very different views than I do, so I don’t know how to respond except to acknowledge your POV. I don’t really care about Neitzsche, either. I always liked the re-phrase: “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stranger.”
> 
> Not that it really means much and I’m not sure why I even thought of it, but this drawing of an answering machine sitting on a glass table, blinking in the middle of the night, seemed to encapsulate my depressive state when I drew it. It still shows up in my nightmares sometimes. An answering machine. I guess it is kind of funny.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing with you. I'm discussing the topic of depression with you. Not everything I write is a refutation. Sorry if it seems that way. I'm more talking about how it's treated everywhere with tenseness, and how toos. This thread isn't stressful for me. I'm an admin and this thread is what happens nearly every single time I have an opinion on this site. I can guarantee nearly every single time I post an opinion that I will have one of my fans in the background disagreeing with me even if they agree with me or someone catching me up on a detail. There is an aspect of the tall poppy syndrome although I've never claimed to be anything I'm not. If I weren't admin here I'd mostly be ignored like I was for the first few years here. I thinks it's funny and fits with my absurdist outlook. I even make bets with my daughter sometimes over who might post something and when.

I'm trying to put across the idea that no matter what the cause is or the outcome is that looking at depression like it's something that should be fenced off, treated with stigma and gotten over so there are no weaknesses. I'm saying that sometimes perceived weaknesses can be our strengths. Personally, I've found people with mental illness probably more relatable than people trying to fence off mentally ill people as if they don't have as much to offer as others. They tend to be more authentic and open to different perspectives both about themselves and to others. They have more solution focus and resilience training, heart, and empathy.

I disagree about the phrase phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and think it is objectively a load of crap. It's almost as crass as saying to a soldier sorry you got your leg blown off you'll get a ripper of a wheelchair and a pension. It's other people telling you how you should react. It's something you say ironically in a COVID ward as a nurse after your fourth bout of it while you are wondering whether you'll get long COVID or be there yourself as a patient on a ventilator. Being resilient does not last indefinitely and neither did Nietzsche in the sense he intended his statement to be.

People googling depression/personality will probably find this thread and that is what worried me when I saw some replies.

I don't like phones much and can probably relate to a depressive state relating to communication. One thing about dial-up was that you could get your time off from the phone if you were online but you had to deal with the messages in the end anyway. They can be burdensome if the world does not stop when you do.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> I'm not arguing with you. I'm discussing the topic of depression with you. Not everything I write is a refutation. Sorry if it seems that way. I'm more talking about how it's treated everywhere with tenseness, and how toos. This thread isn't stressful for me. I'm an admin and this thread is what happens nearly every single time I have an opinion on this site. I can guarantee nearly every single time I post an opinion that I will have one of my fans in the background disagreeing with me even if they agree with me or someone catching me up on a detail. There is an aspect of the tall poppy syndrome although I've never claimed to be anything I'm not. If I weren't admin here I'd mostly be ignored like I was for the first few years here. I thinks it's funny and fits with my absurdist outlook. I even make bets with my daughter sometimes over who might post something and when.


lol. Well, the forum context is all that drove the assumption, and not having very many prior interactions. I am learning about you is all.

My husband also laments about people thinking he’s arguing when he is trying to add to or further a discussion, haha. So you’d think I could spot that better.



beth x said:


> I'm trying to put across the idea that no matter what the cause is or the outcome is that looking at depression like it's something that should be fenced off, treated with stigma and gotten over so there are no weaknesses. I'm saying that sometimes perceived weaknesses can be our strengths. Personally, I've found people with mental illness probably more relatable than people trying to fence off mentally ill people as if they don't have as much to offer as others. They tend to be more authentic and open to different perspectives both about themselves and to others. They have more solution focus and resilience training, heart, and empathy.


Yes. I know you don’t have time for it, but that is the main message from the podcast I linked.



beth x said:


> I disagree about the phrase phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and think it is objectively a load of crap. It's almost as crass as saying to a soldier sorry you got your leg blown off you'll get a ripper of a wheelchair and a pension. It's other people telling you how you should react. It's something you say ironically in a COVID ward as a nurse after your fourth bout of it while you are wondering whether you'll get long COVID or be there yourself as a patient on a ventilator. Being resilient does not last indefinitely and neither did Nietzsche in the sense he intended his statement to be.


Jocko Willink is a current poster boy for that mentality. It seems to work for some people as a motivator, but it comes off as an oddly fragile way to approach hardship, imo. That “no matter what” stuff. I don’t know if I’d idealize strength as an outcome as much as better foresight to prevent further harm.



beth x said:


> People googling depression/personality will probably find this thread and that is what worried me when I saw some replies.


That is why I was sharing resources/stories that were personally helpful. Maybe it will be useful for somebody. The interwebs are vast.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Squirt said:


> lol. Well, the forum context is all that drove the assumption, and not having very many prior interactions. I am learning about you is all.
> 
> My husband also laments about people thinking he’s arguing when he is trying to add to or further a discussion, haha. So you’d think I could spot that better.
> 
> ...


I don't know who Jocko Willink is apart from a Google search. I see that he is a soldier and American, I tried watching a clip but he took too long to get to a point so I of course got bored, switched tabs and saw he had a discussion with Jordan Peterson and thought FMD there is no way I'm going to get through that. I wonder if they are talking about cleaning rooms and using hospital corners on their beds and pretending to be caring about the real things and feelings while simultaneously telling a woman she is fat and unattractive, but my instinct is to go no further. 

I don't know whether either of them likes and follows the philosophy of Nietzsche. There seems to be an entire network of self-help dudes out there who write books, do podcasts, and youtube and generally get into the stuff I've never had any interest in who like the idea of Nietzsche and being an enlightened being but there seems to be a few tracking through here who find him interesting.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

beth x said:


> I don't know who Jocko Willink is apart from a Google search. I see that he is a soldier and American, I tried watching a clip but he took too long to get to a point so I of course got bored, switched tabs and saw he had a discussion with Jordan Peterson and thought FMD there is no way I'm going to get through that. I wonder if they are talking about cleaning rooms and using hospital corners on their beds and pretending to be caring about the real things and feelings while simultaneously telling a woman she is fat and unattractive, but my instinct is to go no further.
> 
> I don't know whether either of them likes and follows the philosophy of Nietzsche. There seems to be an entire network of self-help dudes out there who write books, do podcasts, and youtube and generally get into the stuff I've never had any interest in who like the idea of Nietzsche and being an enlightened being but there seems to be a few tracking through here who find him interesting.







30 seconds in and you get the idea. He likes “extreme ownership” but takes it to comedic extremes. I don’t know if I could get through a Jocko x Peterson team up, either.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Nihilism

“The etymological origin of _nihilism_ is the Latin root word _nihil_, meaning 'nothing', which is similarly found in the related terms _annihilate_, meaning 'to bring to nothing',[5] and _nihility_, meaning 'nothingness'.[19] The term _nihilism_ emerged in several places in Europe during the 18th century,[7] notably in the German form _Nihilismus_,[20] though was also in use during the Middle Ages to denote certain forms of heresy.[21] The concept itself first took shape within Russian and German philosophy, which respectively represented the two major currents of discourse on nihilism prior to the 20th century.[20] The term likely entered English from either the German _Nihilismus_, Late Latin _nihilismus_, or French_nihilisme_.[22]”

*“nihilism (n.)*
1817, "the doctrine of negation" (in reference to religion or morals), from German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil "nothing at all" (see nil), coined by German philosopher Friedrich Heinrich Jacobi (1743-1819). In philosophy, an extreme form of skepticism (1836). The political sense, "rejection of fundamental social and political structures," was first used c. 1824 by German journalist Joseph von Görres (1776-1848). Turgenev used the Russian form of the word (nigilizm) in "Fathers and Children" (1862) and claimed to have invented it. With a capital N-, it refers to the Russian revolutionary anarchism of the period 1860-1917, supposedly so called because "nothing" that then existed found favor in their eyes.


nil (n.)

"nothing," 1833, from Latin nil, contraction of nihil, nihilum "nothing, not at all; in vain," from ne- "not" (from PIE root *ne- "not") + hilum "small thing, trifle," which is of unknown origin. The Latin phrase nil desperandum, used loosely for "never give up," is literally "nothing is to be despaired of," from the gerundive of desperare.”

*“Nihilism*
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes–epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness–have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.

It has been over a century now since Nietzsche explored nihilism and its implications for civilization. As he predicted, nihilism’s impact on the culture and values of the 20th century has been pervasive, its apocalyptic tenor spawning a mood of gloom and a good deal of anxiety, anger, and terror. Interestingly, Nietzsche himself, a radical skeptic preoccupied with language, knowledge, and truth, anticipated many of the themes of postmodernity. It’s helpful to note, then, that he believed we could–at a terrible price–eventually work through nihilism. If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind.”

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Read the rest of this peer-reviewed article^^^—quite fascinating for the understanding of one word, nihilism, and it’s many twists and turns.

I think what happens on PerC, and elsewhere I‘m sure, is that some people are going through existential nihilism, nothingness/not being, to find their standing/being. Who and what am I is one of the biggest questions asked of the self.

Shakespeare‘s Macbeth…
Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

It‘s simply like tearing things down to build them back up.


I can relate to nihilism in depression in the colloquial sense, which is used quite often with people.
Nietzsche, even believed “ If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind.”—from above.

A day in my life, yesterday as a matter of fact:
Woke up and very slow moving; found my momentum after an hour or so;
went to nursing home visit brother-in-law, he no longer is willing to even get out bed; 
sister-in-law gives a hard lecture that gave him no way out (complicated, he has early on-set dementia which is different than the other dementia), at moments I could have slapped her;
I left the room before her, a physical therapist saw me in the hallway, I must have had one hell of a look on my face, and quietly beside me said, “tough day” and I responded with sighs;
afterwards, we did a little retail therapy (thrift store), food shopping and other errands;
by then from the time length of walking and sitting in the car, I was aching so bad I could barely move nor sit—no happy medium, laying down was the only option but does not ease the pain even with aide;
I went to lay down but realized I need to get the trash out for pick up;
I was already in a state of anger that was so fucking strong, felt like I didn’t have some form of control on it; the pain of my body and the harshness of today’s events had pressure building on my head, so fucking heavy that I did explode;
I grabbed the trash bin lid and threw down on the floor expressing out loud with force, “I’ve fucking got to take this damn trash out.”;
proceeded to pull the bag out of the bin, tying and slamming it on the floor and there was another bag sitting beside that my sister-in-law emptied from other rooms;
I continued slamming every object involved in this endeavor muttering all the way; it was the last thing on earth I wanted to do, that is how bad I was hurting;
I was extremely angry because I hurt, because I have a very hard time doing when I’m hurting this bad, because the pain is relentless, because I get very tired of it all, it’s not that I want to die—that doesn’t enter my head, it just feels futile and like nothingness;
I’m a productive person and this chronic relentless pain gets in my damn way—I don’t have to go to work to feel productive but it surely helps;
I feel like there is nothing I can do but ride it out, this is where the nothingness comes in;
After I laid down, I went to spam world and let loose some laughter, something my siblings and I automatically did as children due to circumstances;
I didn’t think about doing so, I just did—it’s like second nature; a positive form of self-defense;
afterward, I was able to let go the feeling of nothingness and anger over it and fall asleep;
today, I’m calmer but a bit sluggish and the pain is lower but not enough to be physically active but mentally it’s back.
I believe we have to look at the ugly to put a face on it in order to put a better face on it to battle the depression—the trick is not to get stuck in the very ugly—The concept of Jung’s shadow in all its trappings and reliefs.
Yes, medicines and/or different physical defenses (depending on the form and cause of depressions) are very useful aides, as well as psychological tricks, if you will. It’s definitely a battle and for the people that can not wage the war (stuck for whatever the reason) support from others is extremely pertinent.

I wrote all the above from a stream of consciousness point of view—a bit of a rant but not quite. Yes, I felt an edge of anger as I was doing so, because I followed/read this entire thread as it was developing—the moments of, how shall I say it… lack of understanding of what some people were trying to say, develop, was being overlooked and I firmly believe that we have to discuss for learning‘s sake. I honestly don’t mean to sound high and mighty—I do my own struggling and I’m sure most people on PerC have seen me do it on here. I can say the damndest things and sound like a mad hatter. Human most precisely.

Partial rant over.
Thanks.


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Squirt said:


> I’m with you until the last sentence. I know it is something we disagree on regularly in terms of worldview. You tend to see an objective morality rather than a relative one, right? I tend to think in terms of cause/effect and consequence, where morality is a subjective “rule” of conduct imposed on it. Perceptions of right and wrong can guide behavior contructively or destructively.
> 
> Within that context, believing depression itself is “not right” could easily lead someone down a destructive path. How would you reconcile that?


The incorrect choice of a person indulging again in yet another incorrect choice, is regrettable, but still just wrong on top of wrong. 

Effectively, I would be mortified if something I said contributed to it. So I always stress forgiveness for weakness in choice, rather than just stressing judgment. Judgement is moral duty, but forgiveness and a return to full agency (arguably the final function of forgiveness) is also moral duty. I find that types of people prone to judgment are likely not to forgive properly and that people who forgive properly are likely not to judge properly. 

Morality CANNOT be subjective. I can go on and on about why this is true. Effectively the idea is itself completely nonsensical. We could not even talk, communicate, at all without that truth holding its water. But let's not derail that particular way. After all both paths can lead to proper wisdom because the error of believing in subjective morality will and must slowly yield to truth.

Many people can decide that being too strong with the weak is weakness and I agree to some extent. That is the harsh touch of the moral judge or the too easy touch of the toxic positivity speaker. Either way, that is horrid and DOES NOT really serve the morally weak. The truth is love itself, objectively is TOUGH, and it has to be. Ultimately failed choice is failure, moral failure, the only failure there is. But, the very next moment within forgiveness and the understanding that the past IS NOT properly perceived as a prison, that same person can resolve not to repeat the pattern and engage in earning wisdom instead of choosing to remain weak and make that failed choice again.

Reconciliation is therefore easy. Morality is objective. If it were changing reconciliation would be impossible.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Idk exactly what's being gone on about, but objective morality will never make sense to me.


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Dalien said:


> Nihilism
> 
> “The etymological origin of _nihilism_ is the Latin root word _nihil_, meaning 'nothing', which is similarly found in the related terms _annihilate_, meaning 'to bring to nothing',[5] and _nihility_, meaning 'nothingness'.[19] The term _nihilism_ emerged in several places in Europe during the 18th century,[7] notably in the German form _Nihilismus_,[20] though was also in use during the Middle Ages to denote certain forms of heresy.[21] The concept itself first took shape within Russian and German philosophy, which respectively represented the two major currents of discourse on nihilism prior to the 20th century.[20] The term likely entered English from either the German _Nihilismus_, Late Latin _nihilismus_, or French_nihilisme_.[22]”
> 
> ...


I think as Chad said, we are all a different case, Jp once said that introverted people with very high openness tend to believe in spiritual ideas, To me it's like some ideas have served to fight depression since ancient times.

Many of Nietzsche's ideas, such as having reached lower and higher than any man, are symbols that have always been there, 
In many occult paintings heaven is represented inside the human head, which leads to the interpretation that hell is severe depression.

When Nietzsche criticizes morality, I think he is referring to a state of mind that is limiting us, For example socialism, clearly he criticizes it for the advancement of the collective over the individual.
I don't think he would have thought something as extreme as some people think individualism is about, some people think because you are an individualist you are going to let a person suffer, of course not... the criticism is always towards systems or institutions.

When Nietzsche refers that suffering makes you stronger, it is similar to the concept of Nigredo and Albedo in alchemy, Discard the negative experience and overcome the internal chaos, Of course the world is a cruel place where many people will never be able to opt for that.

Also Jp said that other preferences will never think this way, I mean I believe that curing depression has different aspects for everyone, I will be quite pragmatic if you have depression go to the doctor, exercise, believe in something that makes you feel better, be a better person, improve your relationships, etc ....

I don't do half of this, but I realize that different realities have different problems. I also wonder how the world economic crisis is going to have an effect on the rise of depression, Just so you know we are getting worse... there is no way to stop the economic decline and the ideas put forward by politics is garbage.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

series0 said:


> The incorrect choice of a person indulging again in yet another incorrect choice, is regrettable, but still just wrong on top of wrong.
> 
> Effectively, I would be mortified if something I said contributed to it. So I always stress forgiveness for weakness in choice, rather than just stressing judgment. Judgement is moral duty, but forgiveness and a return to full agency (arguably the final function of forgiveness) is also moral duty. I find that types of people prone to judgment are likely not to forgive properly and that people who forgive properly are likely not to judge properly.
> 
> ...


What do you suppose is the obsession is with strong vs weak? It's one of those recurrent problems of existence. What does morality mean when it comes to strong and weak things? What is choice, for that matter?

I know this is going to sound random and maybe silly but bear with me. Your post reminds me of the "chimera ant arc" from the manga/anime _Hunter x Hunter_. I'm convinced that the story is partially a metaphor for the fall of imperial Japan during WWII, or at least drew heavily from that history.

In the story (or the parts I'm going to focus on), the "villain" was a creature bred to establish a new "superior" apex species which would dominate all other life forms, including humans. He started with mercilessly taking over a small nation, and also decided to prove his fitness by defeating world champions at every war-strategy board game. Yet, he became fixated on the latter task when he was unable to beat an opponent for the final game (a game invented for the story). The opponent was a child renowned for never losing, but she was an idiot-savant who was blind, naive, and frail. While failing to win over countless matches, he grew to respect the child for her devotion to the game and tactical brilliance. He enjoyed the challenge and her relentless spirit even when he lost. Before he realized it, he became deeply attached, despite all her apparent weakness, and wanted to protect her well-being. It went against everything his breeding stood for. He started questioning how power should be used, what it meant to be weak, and his reason for existing. To reconcile the internal conflict, he decided to aim for a benevolent dictatorship - but he was hopelessly trapped in a paradox. The attempt at benevolence didn't go over well with world powers and he was eventually taken out. The creature died in the arms of the child, and she died with him, both content with their fates.

It became clear the tragedy was someone born under every advantage for winning would instead find meaning by losing. What was weak became strong and what was strong became weak - it was one in the same. It was an unexpectedly sophisticated depiction of a complex duality that I also can relate to as existing within the self.

I see a similar paradox in your reasoning. You find reconciliation for a benevolent result of a harsh judgment easy, but as far as I can tell, it is only easy because you're taking the idea of what it means to be "weak" or "strong" for granted. I'd say that if the past is not a prison, neither is the current moment, and neither is the future.


----------



## mskam355 (5 mo ago)

Causes of depression
The influence of heredity, as well as the environment, is singled out. Almost half of those with depression have close relatives suffering from the same illness. There is a high probability of one of the identical twins becoming ill if the other person is ill. External factors can also be a cause of depression.


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

The truth is that it is quite difficult to understand what Nietzsche was referring to, Beth calls him a Nazi, but she does not talk about his criticism about Wagner.

What a lack of truth!!!, When you tell these people that Nazism was socialism they go crazy, and they don't understand why it was.
Simple mathematics.

As I said, Jp once referred that introverted people with very high openness are prone to imagine the hero's journey inside their mind....
Nietzsche, Jung, and all spiritual ideas for me are born from this source.

Also the failure of not knowing that religious and spiritual ideas are different, religion uses certain spiritual ideas in order to create an institution.
The difference is very big.

As an idiot once said, Only a poet can understand me.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> I think as Chad said, we are all a different case, Jp once said that introverted people with very high openness tend to believe in spiritual ideas, To me it's like some ideas have served to fight depression since ancient times.
> 
> Many of Nietzsche's ideas, such as having reached lower and higher than any man, are symbols that have always been there,
> In many occult paintings heaven is represented inside the human head, which leads to the interpretation that hell is severe depression.
> ...


As I’ve already said, that I understand Nietzsch’s negativity and gain a positive perspective out of it, but I do, also, understand that it can step down a more negative walk for different people. Yes, the world is a cruel place and not everyone can look at it and find the beauty that resides in it as well. Just as we are. Negative/positive; strong/weak; ugly/beautiful; chaos/order—pick your words but it comes to a duality. I liken it to organized chaos.

I agree with seeing the forrest and knowing the tree type there. And, that is not a collectivist thought nor an individualist thought. I’ll reside with the individuals in order to make the collective stronger/better. Because we as individuals do interact as a collective to some extent. I’m not sure I‘m making any sense.

It‘s been awhile since I’ve looked Alchemy, spirituality and the like. I had to refresh my memory—concepts I keep easily enough, but details flee from me until I look again. I, also, use the website, what’s my sign, quite often—this tells much, yet does not go into Jung. You might find it interesting though. So, I went to wiki to refresh.

“Psychologist Carl Jung is credited with interpreting the alchemical process as analogous to modern-day psychoanalysis. In the Jungian archetypal schema, nigredo is the Shadow; albedo refers to the anima and animus (contrasexual soul images); citrinitas is the wise old man (or woman) archetype; and rubedo is the Self archetype which has achieved wholeness.”

Nigredo (blackness)
”In analytical psychology, the term became a metaphor for "the dark night of the soul, when an individual confronts the shadow within.”
(More on this on the Nigredo wiki page.)

Albedo (whiteness)
“Psychologist Carl Jung equated the albedo with unconscious contrasexual soul images; the anima in men and animus in women. It is a phase where insight into shadow projections are realized, and inflated ego and unneeded conceptualizations are removed from the psyche.[_citation needed_] Another interpretation describes albedo as an experience of awakening and involves a shift in consciousness where the world becomes more than just an individual's ego, his family, or country.[7]”

Critrinitas (yellowness)

Rubedo (redness)
The above two didn’t have much written on them but here is something that explains more:





Jung's Prophetic Visions Part 2 - Jungian Center for the Spiritual Sciences


Part II: Alchemy and Its Phases—A Road Map for Individuals and Cultures The first part of this essay appeared last month. Refer to the January 09 posting, which is still on this Web site. Part II: Alchemy and Its Phases—A Road Map for Individuals and Cultures “Alchemy.” The word...




jungiancenter.org





*“Psychology[edit]—wiki *
In the framework of psychological development (especially with followers of Jungian psychology), these four alchemical steps are viewed as analogous to the process of attaining individuation or the process that allows an individual to attain the integration of opposites, their transcendence, and, finally, emergence out of an undifferentiated unconscious.[7] In an archetypal schema, rubedo represents the Selfarchetype, and is the culmination of the four stages, the merging of ego and Self.[8] It is also described as a stage that gives birth to a new personality.[9] Represented by the color of blood in alchemy, the stage indicates a process that cannot be reversed since it involves the struggle of the self towards its manifestation.[10]

The Self manifests itself in "wholeness," a point in which a person discovers their true nature. Another interpretation phrased it as "reunification" which entail the reunion of body, soul, and spirit, leading to a diminished inner conflict.[11]”

Yes, I have looked at all those very hard a bit of awhile ago. Thanks for bringing them back to my attention.
And, I do believe the understanding of the self and the world would help deter depression.

You’re quite right economic decline will have an impact on depression. The past two years, I’ve been deemed on the poverty level—US standards. I make do anyhow, but I have my moments. Covid created depression just as well. The death of all the people—heartbreaking. The lockdowns—disturbed some. Me, I was happy to stay home and take my walks, or sit on my porch for hrs. I was one of those front line workers (cashier). I’d rather had stayed home though. And, the people were crazy I tell you. lol



superloco3000 said:


> Thanks for your 100th insult Beth, always so creative, but you missed my point, I was referring to how different psychologies tend to believe in certain ideas, and my theory that spiritual ideas were born to cure depression to some extent.
> 
> I didn't say that everyone could use it, trying to understand others is also a difficult task.
> 
> ...


Tell me more of spiritual ideas and the cure of depression. I know, it was touched upon in the above post and response. I’m betting you have more.



superloco3000 said:


> The truth is that it is quite difficult to understand what Nietzsche was referring to, Beth calls him a Nazi, but she does not talk about his criticism about Wagner.
> 
> What a lack of truth!!!, When you tell these people that Nazism was socialism they go crazy, and they don't understand why it was.
> Simple mathematics.
> ...


Isn‘t it funny how different philosophers have more than one philosophical category.

Yeah, I’ve heard people say spirituality is religion. Nope. Oh, yes sir, a big difference.

I have not read “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”. I’ve heard talk about it in passing and on a poetry forum I belong to—it’s a UK one. I think I will read it.

You know since I read your response to me I’ve been thinking about that I’ve lost something—been feeling like this for awhile—and that is spirituality. I know when I looked hard at the different aspects (ideas) I wrote my poetry more freely—poetry (playing with words) is my true love.


> As an idiot once said, Only a poet can understand me.


Where is this from?


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Dalien said:


> As I’ve already said, that I understand Nietzsch’s negativity and gain a positive perspective out of it, but I do, also, understand that it can step down a more negative walk for different people. Yes, the world is a cruel place and not everyone can look at it and find the beauty that resides in it as well. Just as we are. Negative/positive; strong/weak; ugly/beautiful; chaos/order—pick your words but it comes to a duality. I liken it to organized chaos.
> 
> I agree with seeing the forrest and knowing the tree type there. And, that is not a collectivist thought nor an individualist thought. I’ll reside with the individuals in order to make the collective stronger/better. Because we as individuals do interact as a collective to some extent. I’m not sure I‘m making any sense.
> 
> ...


Fuck.... In the end I'm just a dumb kid.
Holy shit dallien, your dark side is scary.

I have to think some days.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> Fuck.... In the end I'm just a dumb kid.
> Holy shit dallien, your dark side is scary.
> 
> I have to think some days.


Wow! You‘ve surprised me with your response.
I’m not that dark. I see lighter things too.
Looking deeper into psychology isn’t being dark.
I don’t think you’re just a dumb kid.
While you’re thinking, ask yourself why you think “your dark side is scary.”—I would love to know.


----------



## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> The truth is that it is quite difficult to understand what Nietzsche was referring to, Beth calls him a Nazi, but she does not talk about his criticism about Wagner.
> 
> What a lack of truth!!!, When you tell these people that Nazism was socialism they go crazy, and they don't understand why it was.
> Simple mathematics.
> ...


I didn't call him a Nazi. here is the timeline - Nietzsche dead in 1900 - Nazi Party (was far-right nationalism) formed in 1920. I said that "_Nietzsche is also the philosopher who inadvertently gave us the Nazis_". Socialism has nothing to do with this discussion and neither does Wagner (I've never mentioned him anywhere so I guess that's the one thing you got right).


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dalien said:


> My dear, series0, wallowing does not equate with being stuck/linger in a place. Wallowing is intentional is the sense that you are using the word in your philosophical theory. Being stuck/linger in a state of mind does not mean intentional. Yet, it is the landing of there due to many psychological and physical/biological reasons. We are speaking of depression and not moral(s) on its own.


Everything, every choice is effectively moral(s) on their own. We are embedded within and we ourselves are moral expression. 

As you your intent argument, I understand and agree with you to a point. My model though suggests and it is my belief that the limit (like in math) of being is ALWAYS choice. This means our state is a chosen thing, without exception, finally. This is greatly empowering as well. 

To try to ease my responses is probably wise, though. I DO NOT intend to be so hard and harsh that I further the problem. My energy of challenge is intended to make people rethink their choices and states and facilitate positive change.

My father was presumed to be deaf or rapidly going deaf. But I noticed I could talk to him fine. Others thought (and he himself thought) it was my loudness in volume that was the reason. But I began to notice things about how he heard and developed a theory based on my model. I eventually challenged him (and others) on these beliefs. This is one example among hundreds for me, but it is near and dear to me. My model suggested that he lacked anger, was a cowardly fear type, and, rather than being unaware or unable to hear, he had chosen not to hear rather than be confronted by conversations he could not do well in. It was partly my volume, but MORE my force of personality, my presence and essence, that 'forced' him to change his mind. To test this I spoke in low tones, low volume, but with my same physical animation and focus. It worked. I then dared my brother to try. He did as well. We confirmed that there was almost nothing wrong with my father's hearing (just a little). It was a choice, a retreat from the difficulties and energy required by conversations which at his age often stemmed around unpleasantries. My relentless discussion on everything offered a situation where I as a conversation partner HAD NOT WRITTEN HIM OFF (as he was trying to get people to do). I allowed no rest. So, after a few attempts at ignoring me and pretending to not hear (which happened often) he relented and had a 'real' conversation. He began to live some again and that added energy woke him up. 

There are more than a score of depression cases I have 'treated' in the same way all to great effect. Mania is actually often a bit harder for me because I tend to catalyze that and to disincentivize depression. I admit that some cases I tried to affect this way resulted in too much anger and or retreat from the target and thus no success.



Dalien said:


> Do you really believe that people enjoy the place of depression—rhetorical.


Absolutely they do. It is a perverse enjoyment. It is the flavor of suicide. It is desire's reflection, the destruction of that which is worthless bringing joy, all a delusion, but very real to the people within that choice.



Dalien said:


> Humans are imperfect. This is not a copt out.


Imperfection = cop-out. All errors are every error in the end. That proof is quite hard to deliver but it ends up being correct.



Dalien said:


> And, no, I do not apologize for my imperfection, being human, I will and do work on it.


Working on it is apologizing for it. Your unwillingness to make these equalities fungible, at least in part, is indicative of order-apology, prisons by choice, too much restraint, not enough openness. These challenges are well intended. 



Dalien said:


> Also, it is not immoral to lean on another when the burden is too heavy to carry at moments.


All weakness IS immorality. If you wish to discuss a matter of degree in such matters, I can do that. That has some merit. 

It may sound like I am without mercy and such but I counsel forgiveness at every turn, so that is not true as an assertion to me. Often people's observations are too quick to ignore the continuum. That is to say, again, order apology jumps in and tells you, 'I'm doing good enough (in my efforts)'. The tautology no one is ever doing good enough. This is another way of looking at order-apology, delusional worthiness (good enough). Order apology I tease as 'intending to fail' and I think I have mentioned that before to you. Aiming for less than bullseye is not wise and never will be. Just like the proper placement of doubt (fear) within ANY and all awareness, there is also a proper placement of idealism (desire), which admits that one IS NOT EVER doing 'enough'. That is proper doubt and desire combined. It cannot be otherwise.



Dalien said:


> Helping others is a moral thing to do, no?


Yes and no. Define 'help'. Crutches help in the short term. To allow someone crutches longterm is immoral failure. Drugs are often like crutches and used in almost every case in our society that way. It cruel sometimes to be kind. Tough love understands this. So, blanket statements about 'helping' need more explanation and perhaps a specific case mentioned and discussed before analysis can reveal BETTER truth.



Dalien said:


> So, your droning on about imperfection being immoral trips your morality, because it doesn’t allow you to forgive the imperfection in order to aide another to become more moral/better.


This is tacitly and entirely incorrect.

I forgive all the time and counsel forgiveness in thread after thread. But forgiveness DOES NOT MEAN a lack of judgment or a lack of expressing challenge based on that judgment. One virtue DOES NOT cancel the others. They are equal in meaning and need for a moral world. 

The aim of perfection is PERFECTLY aligned with other virtues. It never ends. If it is not admitted then that is immoral. Judgment is required. Forgiveness is also required. And most importantly in this and similar cases, challenge is required (to the self and others).



Dalien said:


> I believe your tautologies keep you stuck in one place. This world is filled with many many places and your plane is only one of them.


This appeal to subjective morality is not wise. There is finally only the one aim towards perfection. When you use chaos-apology to delude yourself into thinking, 'my special personal choice is ok', you are always self-indulgent and wrong at least in some way(s). I admit that I am partially wrong in my approach as well. But the REALATIVE wrongness between our judgments here ... MATTERS. 

Use your illusion, sure, but NEVER doubt or claim that it is not one. The perverse pride of order-apology separates you from truth and leaves you imprisoned (amid depression among other states).



Dalien said:


> I know to you that objective truth is the only thing there is—this world humans happen to live in is subjective due to their own nature and the nature of this world—this does not mean subjectivism where there is no objective truth.


We agree I think on this point. The objective an subjective MUST exist within any given moment. Time is the delusion causing that separation. If we all clearly felt and believed in the unity, final unity, we would never stray from perfection (the GOOD). It is only the immoral lack of awareness and judgment that allows us to pursue immoral desires, to choose to remain in a state that is out of balance.



Dalien said:


> “If I were to give all of me to others (perfection), there would be nothing left of me to give.”~~me


*Identity is delusion. You are me and I am you.

These truths deny even the sentiment you express. Although the struggle with imperfection has beauty, it IS the struggle NOT THE IMPERFECTION, that is actually beautiful.*



Dalien said:


> Philosophy and psychology do not always mix well—one is not the other.


Yes, they are. Psychology is the way people express emotion and wisdom. It is nothing else. Finally, the entire physical world is only emotion, NOT the other way around.



Dalien said:


> It isn’t wrong to be stuck;


Yes, it partially is. Otherwise stuck would be good. It is isn't and you know it.



Dalien said:


> It is wrong to believe that people intentionally want to be there.


It is NOT wrong. People perversely want bad things all the time. This means your belief here is in obvious error.



Dalien said:


> Is it morally wrong for despair, no. It happens.


Yes, it is. Immorality pervades every act and belief to some degree. Not realizing this is also immoral. What happens can be immoral. REALIZING it is a start towards healing. DENIAL is a maintenance of your own prison.



Dalien said:


> So, whatcha wanna do? Go and tell another how imperfect and immoral they are for not being in a psychological good place? Rubbish, it won’t change a thing. They fucking already feel more than imperfect—worthless. Aren’t you one for believing that all people are worthy.


Yes, I do believe and assert and say and write and demand that all are worthy. If any is, all are (worthy). Therefore any state reflecting unworthiness is a temporary state brought on by immoral choice. There is literally no action in this universe BUT choice. All atoms show choice. All quanta show choice. 

So, yes, I want to and will show and tell others and myself how imperfect and immoral they are for not being in a psychologically good place. That is because if they make BETTER choices they will not be there, and the GOOD will be served and that is my aim. Is that your aim?

My challenge is empowering, not entirely wrong (although it has to be partially wrong). I do not sense within it enough wrongness to stop. My challenges have been extremely effective in many cases and with alarming and confirming alignment to my model. I still maintain hope some shred of this will work for you as well.



Dalien said:


> Strength and weakness—we all have them, correct.


Yes, of course. 

BUT, when you say something like this, your TEMPORARY appeal to unity blinds you to unity's REAL truth(s). Fear and judgment remind us that strengths and weaknesses are RELATIVE. Some are stronger and others weaker. Judgment may NOT be morally removed from any situation. So, by all means balance. But balance WITH extreme judgment, not denying it. Maintain the appeal to unity and realize that ONLY your choices separate you from perfection. Maintain the appeal to unity and realize that if you are me and I am you, others' choices are YOUR choices (also). 



Dalien said:


> If we had neither, what would we be, amoral?


No, perfection is a VERY temporary state, but it is NOT amoral. It is perfectly moral. Of course I could be accused of being an optimist when I assert that. Belief in perfection as immoral is like belief in nothing, akin to Nihilism, again, an IMMORAL stance.



Dalien said:


> Yes, I do agree that we all need to work on our selves to be better. That’s the thing—the doing of it. You express what should be and I express on how to try to get to some semblance of balance. So, I know you will tell me how wrong I am to your philosophical theory. I’m not speaking of philosophy.


OK so you refuse to see the path? You see only the next obstacle. Idealism is the right leader. It is aligned with the future. Fear is blinding and imprisoning even as it teaches us awareness and judgement. The emotions MUST be in balance for health. 

NOTHING is not morality and philosophy. How you pick a piece of meat from your teeth DOES contain a hundred moral failures. It also contains a hundred moral successes. The mundane contains the eternal and the sublime.



Dalien said:


> You see a forrest (your idealism) and I see that forrest and know there are trees—this is my idealism.


This is backwards in my judgement. But I am trying to avoid some second layer contest out of this. If there was balance as you say, there could be no depression. The matter at hand contains the proof within its struggle.



Dalien said:


> Don’t you even dare try to tell me I coddle by looking at an individual by not telling them that they are imperfect and wrong and by guiding them to feel worthy or a way to absolve their dilemma to better them selves.


Truth is something I am obliged to tell. However, if I am right and it is truth, it will continue to tell you its message also. So be it. Maybe I am the wrong messenger for you.



Dalien said:


> I will tell you that “the beatings will stop when you do better” attitude that you carry with your generalized collectivist ideology will not push your “real” communism to fruit its utopia.


Yes it will. Again, it is a tautology. 

The central mechanism of the universe is free will.

The beatings YOU inflict upon yourself by choice WILL CONTINUE until you do BETTER with those choices. And since you are me and I am you is true, we are all taking that beating, implying I have moral duty to challenge; implying all of us have to do BETTER on all things. Yes all of us includes me as well.



Dalien said:


> I know you don’t like that word, but that is what your transcendence dictates.


No, you misunderstand my message and I think, that of truth.

Your mistrust of desire and anger is order-apologist leaning. You make fun of collectivism. It is clearly correct. That DEOS NOT deny individuality. All truth contains these profound juxtapositions. Amid everyone, order-apologies resist this fungible nature of reality and secretly and immorally hate collectivism (and unity/anger) because they do not want to be grouped into a hive mind and lose agency. They refuse to realize that such a concept suggests we all have perfect and infinite agency (and that suggestion is right). If progress is to be made it CAN ONLY BE MADE in the ideal direction. Stalling, admitting to stuckness without apology (your work is an apology), and especially longing for the past is immoral anachronism.



Dalien said:


> Yes, I agree with striving for better—this gives a grasp for forward movement without the demand for perfection in the colloquial sense, relieving a sense of worthlessness. I too have compassion no less than you do.


You say you want a thing and then deny its synonym in meaning has that value. The demand for perfection IS the grasp for forward movement. Any aim at less than perfection as a starting intent is 'intending to fail' an order-apologist trap. Your words give you away at every turn. 



Dalien said:


> Incompetent doctors—man, they are not a god or above one, no one is—remember imperfect no matter how hard someone tries. I don’t see it the way you do and I am the one who went through all of that. I survived and I forgive them of their discretion.


I forgive them and you also. I forgive myself for trying improperly as well. Do you?



Dalien said:


> It was not their fault that my body rejected the standard dose of propofol for my body size and weight. And, by the way, they did explain to me the risks of propofol and the surgery and I gave my consent. For the other incident, the needle they used that punctured my lung was the smallest one. Hey, they did put the plates in on another day with a lower dose of propofol and another drug that I can’t recall the name at the moment. Gave me back my right arm as much as that was possible—I had no feeling in it. No, I have not and will not get another botox injection. I will go under again if that needs be. Wasn’t put under for the Botox.


Very sorry for your loss. Dealing with loss is especially taxing in life. Loss appears to deny the very concept of the unity principle. It is perhaps loss then that can best teach it.



Dalien said:


> I believe your standards are so high that you build a wall that is impossible to climb over and it goes even higher once someone reaches near the top. This is not me saying not to try to do better along each step of the way, but will we ever reach omnipotence. I don’t want to be perfection its self because I will become null and void—nothing to fight for and non-human.


To deny the ONLY path forward out of fear of what will be is clearly immoral. You can persist in your delusion, but I will persist then in what you think is mine. 

Change is inevitable and loss is inevitable. Surrendering to idealism towards unity is wise and can help you cope with loss as a delusional non-conclusion. Only the petty self can experience loss. That self is as a choice separate from love. Granted these beliefs are all a matter of degree. Again I do address the RELATIVE nature of success in choice (and belief).

My standards are high, yes. I approve of that choice, still. Perfection is the only real goal. Even in the small choices, perfection is wise to keep in mind as the goal.



Dalien said:


> Inherent choices—sins of the father. Here we go sins of the father, and their father, and their father, and so forth and so on into infinity. Learning from past mistakes causing suffering, yes please least we forget them. Most definitely should remember, look and address.


Remember yes, and remember that memory is fallible and remember hope.

But what is hope really? Is is the dream, the wish, the source of intents towards perfection only. Hoping for less is an admission that what is divine and perfect IS NOT IN YOU. It is. So stop disrespecting it. Hope PROPERLY for perfection regardless of current state(s).



Dalien said:


> Empowerment gives a stronger ability to absolve.


Than what?

The chief instrument of empowerment is BLAME. In other words owning your choices empowers further choices. Not owning them, is disempowering. Which one are you doing?



Dalien said:


> Taking away willpower destroys.


So, my first response would be 'only you can choose to lose willpower'. But you are me and I am you. So it still holds true, even if others are doing the taking because they are you. Admitting to these truths can and will help. Again, it's all only choice.



Dalien said:


> Of course it’s not easy to manage physical pain when it’s very strong and different people have different levels of ability on that that will dictate action, so yes ability is relevant. Depending on the level, type of pain, the amount of relief there is it is not always in someone’s control to over ride it or just make it through. I had an Aunt who had rods through her entire back. After years of this chronic massive pain (yes, she fought depression), her body literally couldn’t take it any more and it started to shut her down. She was in unbearable pain that no amount of drugs could alleviate even a bit. She told my Uncle that she did not want to go on life support if she went into a coma. And, she did and he honored her belief. Now, you tell me, was it immoral for her not to try no more or immoral for him to honor her. I don’t believe so. Your Philosophy will not convince me. To me that would be transcending to put another before one’s self no matter the cost.


I respect choice. There is immoral error in all choice, regardless. 

I would have respected her choice and let her choose. This is not absolution for the immoral parts of that choice. For those she is nonetheless forgiven. 

Still, I would love to see the fight go on, to see the toughness reaching near perfect limits, etc, the glory of will to live and hope. I confess I have not had too much pain (as I understand it)(others think I wallow in pain that I do not see). I am asked all the time amid sarcasm how my philosophy is working out for me, and I respond that I seem to get happier and happier by my own reckoning as time passes. They are taken aback by this and point out my many struggles and constant discussion on my state(s). I tell them that is of course the proper work of it. They counsel that I not share all my woes with others especially quickly. I know no other way to be and I prefer being this way. It is NOT painful really to do so. It would rankle NOT to do so. I tried in the past and felt worse every moment I let that delusion hold any sway.

Still, it is true that balancing pain is not easy. Balancing loss especially is not easy. I have helped many people with their pain and loss. My help is usually best received in person where essence (my strong suit) is sufficient to lend more direct and obvious honesty to the effort. Still, my words have helped many as well and usually this type of challenge is the right path to those positive outcomes. I of course hope it can be again. But I understand if you do not wish to pursue this ... discussion.



Dalien said:


> Oh, honey, I’m serenely suffering because I fight. Don’t believe for a second that it makes me exactly happy every second of every day. It makes me sad, angry, and like nothing (this does not mean worthless, sometimes the the pain is so strong I can’t feel an emotion) and other emotions, but I know I’m alive and that’s where serene comes in.


Well the many results and overall balance are the RELATIVE success in any matter and it sounds to me like so much of you is in the right place. Serenity though is not found in merely living. Perhaps a sarcastic response would be 'it beats the alternative', but your Aunt and truth disagree at a certain point. That is not to encourage death or death-aimed choices, not at all. It means that the release of death has its proper place amid the overall system of love. The timeless nature of actual truth suggests identity and death are delusions though. 

It is impossible not to feel emotion as there is nothing else in the universe. The serene feeling of balance in any state is anger. All calm is anger. Serenity itself to me has a nuance of both fear (judged balance) and desire (future tilted judged balance). But these also are minor errors to balance in the final sense which is only right if perfect. It's somewhere between enneatype 9 and 1 as a net aim.

Anyway, I hope these comments are helpful and if they cause suffering that it was only necessary and not unnecessary. That was my intent.


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> What you think? And have you read anything about causes of depression? Feel free to share those here.


Depression? Such a complex topic. You guys are so interested I'm motivated to want to weigh in on the topic. I like to simplify complex things but am greeted with an open vacuum first try. 

I think of life doing well as a general kind of flow. As long as things are flowing one is happy. The flow comes from many directions ongoing. Or rather there are many flows and they all go on like multi-tasking. They can't all go well. Some will get stuck and fail. Are there enough failures to affect the overall picture or do we abandon the ones that don't work and proceed?

Each flow failure will cause pain. We are organisms so it is hard to pin down what are minor obstacles and major ones. Encounter a major and can we call our pain *depression*? Depression would be a feeling of pain where we have lost a flow great enough to affect big enough flows.

So much for theory. Let me take up myself (if you can stand to hear, lol). One can substitute the word *goal* for flow. I think of three of my goals, each having a different effect and each of different value.

1. Reading of your many posts on PerC. If I can respond well in your and my opinion I will be pleased ... the opposite of depression. If I'm forced to not respond or respond poorly (for whatever reason), I will be disappointed. That's not depression as it isn't strong enough. But there are other cases. People have mentioned a couple missing members. (It happens). Those members I wanted to respond to and can't. They are not here. That is depressing. I can't fix it but the situation I hope will fade into the distance with time. 

2. Writing my essay on consciousness. Last month I lost work. (Microsoft Word erased a month's worth of effort I can't ever recover as I forgot to back it up.) I was in turn alarmed, angry and depressed. Today I have to accept it and it will be a lessor essay ... or will it? I was depressed because I was working on what other's said and was replying to that. No way do I recall what all that was. Today I will proceed by temporarily ignoring what other's say and work more on what I have to say. That should give me a chance at progress. A sort of blessing in disguise as I get hung up on the dozens and dozens of things people have to say.

3. I'm dredging a stream thinking I'm going to stop a flooding. I'm so motivated I do planning from morning to night. It's pure joy. It's a project with a flow with minimum failures and many surprises. I can carry out the steps and they "give life" to the me who is carrying them out. I have to be careful (and am not always careful) because I work till exhausion, have torn muscles and strains that have already sent me to doctors multiple times. If I am stopped I will expect depression.

Since this thread is about depression, here are more comments. Any injury, ill heath, death of a loved one is bound to cause depression. They stop a flow. So will lack of goals/ purpose in life as that represents no flow or improper flow. The work-around is to come up with something goal-wise. Minor, mid-sized, major, whatever. Such goals need not be rational. (The next flood may render my dredging worthless ... so it's all a gamble.) Any minor goal can take one's mind off major ones ... as long as they are helpful. 

Addiction is not your goal. Instead, the chemistry controls you. Speaking of chemistry, depression is an emotion. Chemistry is a symptom. <--- I didn't say that well. Chemistry is a description of what is inside flow. Deal with that.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

@series0



series0 said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This right here is uncalled for, period.
What, did I hit a nerve.
And, yes, your saying I’m making fun of anything that is of as a serious nature as this thread topic and your interjection hit a nerve for me. I won’t deny that.

I make fun of nothing here in this thread even collectivism.
I don’t believe in your brand of communism, much less any one else’s.
For one, it’s not going to happen anytime soon or later—standards are too far over the top.
Two, we lowly imperfects (all people) will never meet your standards no matter what.
Three, you drone on in a topic about your philosophy but leave out your end game of communism—you do this quite often. So, you hide it often.
Four, that would be a salesman or a brain washer.

This thread is about depression and dealing with it and not your philosophical bent on it (and that bend you do on everything else).

Think what you like. That is on you. I’m not in control of your beliefs, because they are yours.

By the way, I was reading and stopped at the above. I have no desire to read anymore of your rhetoric.

Sue me and think me immoral for It. So be it. I told you I will not apologize for being imperfect (human). I will work on that, but will not work on accepting your end game. Tell me I‘m not objective. Call it subjective (subjectivism is something else) that my beliefs don’t completely align with yours. I love and you can say a million and more things that are according to you I’m wrong about, but they will not stop me from loving.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

BigApplePi said:


> Depression? Such a complex topic. You guys are so interested I'm motivated to want to weigh in on the topic. I like to simplify complex things but am greeted with an open vacuum first try.
> 
> I think of life doing well as a general kind of flow. As long as things are flowing one is happy. The flow comes from many directions ongoing. Or rather there are many flows and they all go on like multi-tasking. They can't all go well. Some will get stuck and fail. Are there enough failures to affect the overall picture or do we abandon the ones that don't work and proceed?
> 
> ...


Heavy stress of any sort can cause depression, which has caused a chemical imbalance. Yes, this is only one type or cause for depression.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

BigApplePi said:


> Depression? Such a complex topic. You guys are so interested I'm motivated to want to weigh in on the topic. I like to simplify complex things but am greeted with an open vacuum first try.
> 
> I think of life doing well as a general kind of flow. As long as things are flowing one is happy. The flow comes from many directions ongoing. Or rather there are many flows and they all go on like multi-tasking. They can't all go well. Some will get stuck and fail. Are there enough failures to affect the overall picture or do we abandon the ones that don't work and proceed?
> 
> ...


To further this: A game developer made a game as a memorial to his son who died of cancer at four years old. It was an experimental game which was more storytelling of what his family went through losing a child to illness. There were so many metaphors (visual and in the gameplay itself) and vignettes about helplessness, despair, rage, frustration, hope, joy, grief, uncertainty, exhaustion, confusion, and so on. It was a gut-wrenching game to play... funny to see youtuber's trying to play it and getting wrecked emotionally, lol. 

That Dragon, Cancer Full Game Walkthrough - YouTube

This type of exploration strikes me as brutally honest and open compared to a clinical set of symptoms to define and document a condition, or an appeal to immutable biological factors that inform the physical process for limited assistance but don't always address the cause adequately or how to truly recover. You speak of flow, and being stuck, missing a connection, a blockage, a loss. I think these comparisons do move the discussion forward when it comes to causes of all types, how we overcome the vagaries of our conscious experience (individual and collective), more so than blood-concentrations of neurotransmitters.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Squirt said:


> You provide insightful context, imo.
> 
> To tie things together a little more, depression might be described as a possible result of a forfiture/stripping of agency. How that comes about could vary widely, though. For some, the literal restriction of mobility - others maybe more psychic in nature. Curious what you think about that possibility (at your leisure, of course).


Immobility most definitely furthers depression. Especially if one was previously very mobile. I say this because the thought of the restriction causes the feeling of loss, inadequacy/self-esteem, and agency (include all the negative emotions). I believe the struggle of those feelings/states-of-mind are also present in immobility at birth too—stem from watching the world around them. Yet, I think these people are better equipped to learn how to deal with it more quickly than one who has lost the use of mobility after having it. I’m not saying one scenario is easier than the other fore it depends on the person truly and the nurture they receive. I think nurture/support is the key to dealing with depression stemming from immobility which always includes physical pain due to loss of muscle mass, strength, and motion of joint range. Chronic pain induces a change in chemistry imbalances of the messenger of glutamate, which controls thought and emotions. It, also, interferes with memory trace needed to hold information to process, also, the ability to focus and concentrate. So, not only is there a loss of physical mobility, but a loss of mental capability, as well. Add the stress of all of this, it can and does further one into deeper depression.

Edit: I do believe the major diseases and imbalanced brain/body chemicals creates a form of immobility. I might be a little off about it or missing something about it, but I can see it.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

BigApplePi said:


> Depression? Such a complex topic. You guys are so interested I'm motivated to want to weigh in on the topic. I like to simplify complex things but am greeted with an open vacuum first try.
> 
> I think of life doing well as a general kind of flow. As long as things are flowing one is happy. The flow comes from many directions ongoing. Or rather there are many flows and they all go on like multi-tasking. They can't all go well. Some will get stuck and fail. Are there enough failures to affect the overall picture or do we abandon the ones that don't work and proceed?
> 
> ...


Oh yes because I totally enjoy, and everyone else who's depressed, totally enjoy it. We want to be depressed for ever and ever. Yes, feeling empty and never having happy feelings lasting longer than a few minutes. Yes because I want to be this way ...(ー_ー)

Edit: Omg sorry Apple I quoted the wrong person! 😅😅😂


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

@series0 I do agree with moral choices however.

Right now, I'm choosing to be on here rather than getting ready sooner.

That is immoral, or what I would call it, sinful.

Because we are taken away by the lusts of our own bodies and sinful nature rather than choosing what is right all the time. A constant spiritual battle.

What the secular world views as entertainment and leisure, is actually sinful.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Oh yes because I totally enjoy, and everyone else who's depressed, totally enjoy it. We want to be depressed for ever and ever. Yes, feeling empty and never having happy feelings lasting longer than a few minutes. Yes because I want to be this way ...(ー_ー)
> 
> Edit: Omg sorry Apple I quoted the wrong person! 😅😅😂


What caused you to say this?


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Dalien said:


> Wow! You‘ve surprised me with your response.
> I’m not that dark. I see lighter things too.
> Looking deeper into psychology isn’t being dark.
> I don’t think you’re just a dumb kid.
> While you’re thinking, ask yourself why you think “your dark side is scary.”—I would love to know.


Nothing, I was thinking about myself and how these ideas will collide with a future reality, how I will react in future tragedies.

Psychology and Alchemy is an excellent book, but I would avoid reading the first part which is quite boring (or read it at the end), Jung analyzing patient's dreams with symbols, trying to be science.
I'm not saying it's not interesting but quite boring for me honestly.

The interesting thing is that in Alchemy you only achieve your true personality, the circle, enlightenment, etc, through severe suffering.
For me spirituality is the courage to face reality, the inner light, the human instinct, the life force, the idealist, the fighter.
But I also understand that many people are afraid of suffering, I don't like it either, but existence is an eternal pain.

The individual is the light, different from the others, the curious thing is born when ideas like libertarianism use the individual as the central axis of society.

But also this thread has served to expand my world, to know how different crude realities would never think like others.
All delivering a small part of what we call "reality" and the processes how to deal with it.

"Thus Spoke Zarathustra" is a must, as you are I think you will love it.


beth x said:


> I didn't call him a Nazi. here is the timeline - Nietzsche dead in 1900 - Nazi Party (was far-right nationalism) formed in 1920. I said that "_Nietzsche is also the philosopher who inadvertently gave us the Nazis_". Socialism has nothing to do with this discussion and neither does Wagner (I've never mentioned him anywhere so I guess that's the one thing you got right).


Please Beth, When I told you that Marx is the philosopher, who had over 100 million people killed for his ideas you don't apply the same rules, double standard.


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Each of us, being human, comes from the same place. Each of us is different though and we are going to view depression differently. The beauty of these exchanges is when we learn something more about ourselves when we see another's view. This ain't always easy. One can speak and interpreting it can come out in surprisingly different ways.

I noticed this:


Dalien said:


> I do not apologize for my imperfection, being human, I will and do work on it.





series0 said:


> Imperfection = cop-out. All errors are every error in the end. That proof is quite hard to deliver but it ends up being correct. ... Working on it is apologizing for it. Your unwillingness to make these equalities fungible, at least in part, is indicative of order-apology, prisons by choice, too much restraint, not enough openness. These challenges are well intended.


When I say I don't have to apologize for my imperfections, I mean I don't have to apologize to *others*. One may desire to work on imperfections for themselves. This is morally a good thing.


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

BigApplePi said:


> When I say I don't have to apologize for my imperfections, I mean I don't have to apologize to *others*. One may desire to work on imperfections for themselves. This is morally a good thing.


I am you and you are me. Apologizing IS apologizing.


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

series0 said:


> I am you and you are me. Apologizing IS apologizing.


Gosh. "Apologizing is apologizing." Let me thimk on that. "I am you and you are me." Will you dare to admit that we are *also* different, lol.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Dalien said:


> What caused you to say this?


I was replying to Series0.


----------



## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

superloco3000 said:


> Nothing, I was thinking about myself and how these ideas will collide with a future reality, how I will react in future tragedies.
> 
> Psychology and Alchemy is an excellent book, but I would avoid reading the first part which is quite boring (or read it at the end), Jung analyzing patient's dreams with symbols, trying to be science.
> I'm not saying it's not interesting but quite boring for me honestly.
> ...


Universities should put a disclaim label on their teachings of Marxism, (and whatever other -isms they're teaching,)saying; ideologies on paper don't work in real life. (99.99% of the time.)


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

series0 said:


> Again, I guess you cannot help yourself. I've explained my differing meanings for words in many posts. True that unless the main interacting person is one who doesnt know my posts, I usually do not re-iterate that these days.
> 
> Still, based on the number of times I explain and you ask again, I probably should because that number is epically high.


A misunderstanding. This is not for me personally. It was asked if you can publish. The idea is to get everything in one place. Of course, even if that were done there are refinements and questions. That should keep an extrovert going. (It wouldn't stop an introvert either.)

Here is a statement about publishing:


Folsom said:


> I vaguely remember that series0 has said that a number of philosophers have reinvented, redefined, or accurately defined words to use them in a new system which made those systems difficult to understand, but *the difference is that those philosophers were writing books, not forum posts.*
> Books which would have described their terminology in earlier chapters to be easily understood in later chapters and to be read together as a whole. A forum doesn't work this way.


----------



## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

BigApplePi said:


> What are some words that need work in clarity or can even be disregarded? Time? Change? Evil? Apology? Others?
> ==============
> 
> This is not a word, but I would like to see more clarity about imperfection on the road to perfection or rather, is it desirable to say evil can be good on the way to a higher good.


On Imperfection:

So, no, it is NEVER desirable (in the final sense) to do any shred of evil. It is unnecessary suffering, by definition. That thinking which yields to the practical truth of failure and then perversely suggests that such failure is required or even good, is effectively delusional subjectivism. This is then easily seen as people deciding that their self-indulgent wants are good just because they fail to understand the evil in them. This is QUITE APART from the truth that, as a whole, humanity with all its collective choices, will err in some way in every single choice and to high degree. The goal of the sage or philosopher then is to instill in everyone this awareness that although forgiven, these deviant aims ARE NOT GOOD or proper in the first place. They do serve to assist immoral actors in understanding because such self-indulgences all feedback amid the system of love, such that as an objective law of the universe, ... evil is a choice by which we MUST inflict unnecessary suffering upon ourselves. Unlike necessary suffering, this evil is less and less likely to allow for the earning of wisdom. The measure of the likelihood is determined ONLY by the degree away from alignment with objective GOOD of the intent or action. It is by this gradient of good that one can see that the entire goal of existence is to become better and better listeners for the signal of love, which suggests amid all choice, via feedback, that the GOOD is the ONLY goal. This resonation will feed upon itself, and must, in order for the collective culture and philosophy to become at first dimly aware of and then recommend pursuit of the next and next layers of GOOD to intend.

It DOES NOT MATTER what any number of incorrect self-indulgent thinkers wish to be true. Only truth matters. The stability required to overcome yielding (like an idiot) to these weaknesses in choice (character) is an often slow and lossy climb, BUT, ALWAYS in the one direction as is easily seen throughout history. Why is that? What does it say about truth? It is actually a very simple net direction, a minor 'proof' of the objective nature of morality.

As I have mentioned many times before, if Subjectivists had any leg to stand on the definition of stand and leg must needs change randomly and in random time. So one moment (lets say a year) it would seem to random groups of humans that murder was not only GOOD, but the best thing there could be. The past CANNOT really much be relevant amid true subjectivism. De-anchored reality means de-anchored relevance OF ALL THINGS IN ALL CASES. So, subjectivism is insanity. The MUST be a universal GOOD norm around which all intents and actions spin and strive. Yes, they FAIL and strive to other points apart from the GOOD, but that is and SHOULD BE referred to as its partial failure portion. This humbling admission is REAL awareness, not negativity. Being aware of weaknesses and admissive of them, one can at least TRY to do the hard work of becoming not weak. If NOTHING (subjectivism) can be taken as objectively GOOD, then there is never any real or valid reason to work towards anything and desire itself has no purpose other than as a random force. Such a universe would not and cannot work. Morality is therefore objective.

All imperfections are choices or choice streams that are moral failures ONLY.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

If some people "choose" to be depressed, then do some people "choose" to be psychotic?


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Flabarac Brupip said:


> If some people "choose" to be depressed, then do some people "choose" to be psychotic?


From my understanding (of life), choices aren't exercising complete control over all conditions or states; it's deciding how you respond to them with whatever agency you have... or even just recognizing what agency you have. Unless you're literally in a vegetative state, you have some choice.


* *





TEAM-CBT does touch on a similar idea about the power of choice. I keep bringing that up because it fits so many of these complaints. It isn't toxic positivity, but rather taking a realistic look about the positive qualities of a person that might explain why they feel the way they do and why they might not want to change (which can be surprising even to the person). They call it "assessment of resistance." Important to note that this would _not _be used to treat a psychotic episode directly (or "cure" schizophrenia, which to my knowledge is not possible) but is a method to get a therapist and patient to agree upon treatment so they might be more effective. It recognizes that a person _is _making choices about their problems but might not fully realize it... because people can be bundles of paradoxes sometimes. Here is an overview of this process:

Melting away resistance and boosting motivation in CBT, a practical introduction for therapists - YouTube 

I know y'all don't like external references that requires some time/dedication, but I'm posting this here anyway because 1) I couldn't find any "quick and dirty" explanations of this concept that were adequate. I'm making a reference to this seminar by Jill Levitt specifically, not anything you might find randomly on the internet. 2) It might be useful for anyone searching for help on mental health issues. 3) A starting point for any potential offense about this therapy method. If anyone is not willing to take an hour to gain understanding of what I'm referencing, I'm not willing to take an hour to entertain the criticism.


----------



## Plusless (Aug 19, 2020)

Squirt said:


> At that point, it almost seems shattering is necessary to build a new sense of self that can close the gap - when that gap becomes so wide. I realize how callous that sounds, but I can only say it from going through it. Depression is a shattering, and recovery is picking up the pieces and building a new life out of it. How long the pieces remain scattered on the ground might have to do with if they are stomped on or blown far away or whatever else. For me, there was a point where I _decided _to pick up the pieces, to close the gap, to wake up and be alive again... and that is what resonates about what Series0 is saying.


I don`t see that belief as callous, I`ve seen that before in myself. The problem with that gap is that it is perception, not reality. The trap of perfectionism is believing that the doom of that gap exists, which in turn corrupts the desire to rebuild "a new life".

You can only create yourself out of those "shards", the idea of creating a "new self" by shattering is just an illusion. There is no reason to condemn your existence like that because it never was the reason for that perceived "shattering".
That perfectionism is a transaction of values in order to create motivation, no "good" is created. You take that value from everything that you used to value, including yourself, and give it to that image of perfection in order to force desire, to create the rush of motivation that keeps you feeling alive, shattering and rebuilding yourself in worship of this image of perfection because you will always meet the same "imperfection" of your own existence when you finish. Only through growth can you get over your past self, shattering never creates.



> You describe a similar moment where you did something so drastic it shocked you into confronting yourself (sad to hear you went through that, btw... ). I don't want to give details about what exactly happened in my case, but it was like the disconnect you describe suddenly reconnected... like a bolt of lightning. It took years to operate in a normal capacity again and wrap my head around everything, but there was a deep sense that I would get there - that everything was going to be okay now, even though nothing outwardly had changed. Just how much more functional of a vase I built from the pieces wasn't something I understood until over a decade later. Lots of stuff in between, and of course many complexities figure in... but that fundamental aspect of "taking back" agency can have a huge impact. I don't think it is a matter of _will_, but of faith, as you said. I don't know if there is some magic wand you can wave to offer that to someone, but wouldn't that be convenient? lol


The first time in my life when I felt that shattering my reaction was that loop of perfection, I went through it for years until I just gave up completely because all effort seemed worthless, sure I did get a lot of achievements, but I never could see any value in them. Now I`m trying to just witness what becomes of my life. Even with minor health issues from that illness it has been way more positive for me so far.

🧙‍♂️ ✨I have faith in you✨
Did it work?


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Plusless said:


> I don`t see that belief as callous, I`ve seen that before in myself. The problem with that gap is that it is perception, not reality. The trap of perfectionism is believing that the doom of that gap exists, which in turn corrupts the desire to rebuild "a new life".
> 
> You can only create yourself out of those "shards", the idea of creating a "new self" by shattering is just an illusion. There is no reason to condemn your existence like that because it never was the reason for that perceived "shattering".
> That perfectionism is a transaction of values in order to create motivation, no "good" is created. You take that value from everything that you used to value, including yourself, and give it to that image of perfection in order to force desire, to create the rush of motivation that keeps you feeling alive, shattering and rebuilding yourself in worship of this image of perfection because you will always meet the same "imperfection" of your own existence when you finish. Only through growth can you get over your past self, shattering never creates.
> ...


If you don’t like that metaphor, another one would be the process of new, rigorous growth that occurs after a fire.

I said I didn’t know how impactful it was until much later - this is different from starting with some other (distorted) image in mind and working towards it. I didn’t see exactly where I’d end up, I just kept going (faith). It isn’t something that comes easily, that is for sure. It is extremely uncomfortable. If perfection is indeed an objective ideal (a provocative concept), you don’t need to design it for yourself to move in a positive direction (another provocative concept). I’m not sure if I totally accept that explanation, but it something to think about in the context of experience.

The point is that one little step at a time during recovery built a more resilient mindset less susceptible to extreme perfectionism (which yes, I consider a weakness of mine), at least when it came to the events/issues/beliefs that preceded the depression. Maybe I could have achieved more resiliency by less drastic means, but that isn’t what happened.

It built a more functional way of being “after shattering” because my ability to act was no longer so brittle - there is a new tensile strength. That is what I learned about letting go of what series0 called a perfection expectation, and honestly I am still learning… just by less devastating means.

What I wanted to resonate with you is the meaning in a decision to take a step, despite the suffering, in the first place. I think we are expressing very similar things that way, but there are differences in details due to our respective situations. I have not dealt with chronic pain as a precursor, but rather repeated childhood trauma. Where you describe a hopelessness/gap around your ability to control constant pain that could occur at any moment, I felt a hopelessness/gap around my ability to prevent losing loved ones to violence at any moment.

However, I don’t know if there was a “better” way to change aside from experiencing the depression in my case. I do believe my depression was made worse by a broken social services system.


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Squirt said:


> From my understanding (of life), choices aren't exercising complete control over all conditions or states; it's deciding how you respond to them with whatever agency you have... or even just recognizing what agency you have. Unless you're literally in a vegetative state, you have some choice.
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Super interesting, thanks for the video.
Still trying to sort it out, it has quite a lot of humanity.

In fact, to my loved ones and actually to almost most people going through depression, I would recommend going to therapy, and methods like this, makes many people who are reluctant to go ( like me 🤣 ), see many positive aspects and maybe....

It is amazing how the human mind has come up with certain philosophies to get rid of depression.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Perfect
by Dalien
12 June 2012

The perfect bird
and
The perfect shell
Sat on the pure white sand

The perfect sky
and
The perfect orb
Sat on the pure blue water

Everything was so perfect
Nothing was alive
Except for perfectionism,
Which in this is flawed


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> Super interesting, thanks for the video.
> Still trying to sort it out, it has quite a lot of humanity.
> 
> In fact, to my loved ones and actually to almost most people going through depression, I would recommend going to therapy, and methods like this, makes many people who are reluctant to go ( like me 🤣 ), see many positive aspects and maybe....
> ...


I’ve been to two different counselors at two different periods of my life. The first I liked a lot, we connected, and she helped tremendously. Writing (journaling) was my savior (if you will) and her understanding aided in this. The second one’s approach had me feeling more alienated—she had me draw a picture, I did but in poem form. She didn’t know what to do with that. lol. I used colors and sky, earth, etc. that were upside down and packed it with emotion drawing a picture. I stopped seeing her and continued writing.

I get it, writing (another form of therapy) is not for everyone. The trick with this is to write freely and don’t analyze it until much later—a release. When going back and reading what is written, things usually come a little clearer, if not keep writing. I still write whether I’m up, down, or all around. This is just me, but I’ve seen it help others.

I don’t think other types of therapies are bad—as you said, they’re not for everyone—if one thing doesn’t work, try another. Here it’s important to recognize when its not working—movement is necessary to come out of the stillness (even though, it feels like a million pieces). I would deem this growth. Perfection is not growth—to me it puts to heavy of a strain on an already stillness—it demands and stifles. How much movement, speed and depth at once one can handle depends on each person, obviously. Reaching for a balance is more of a key to me than reaching for perfection.

I haven‘t been to a counselor for my chronic pain issues. I’m fortunate in that I’ve already went through what I have in the past and learned how to recognize it and deal with it (counseling and writing)—quite a lot as a child and it rolled on; no need for details here.


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Dalien said:


> I’ve been to two different counselors at two different periods of my life. The first I liked a lot, we connected, and she helped tremendously. Writing (journaling) was my savior (if you will) and her understanding aided in this. The second one’s approach had me feeling more alienated—she had me draw a picture, I did but in poem form. She didn’t know what to do with that. lol. I used colors and sky, earth, etc. that were upside down and packed it with emotion drawing a picture. I stopped seeing her and continued writing.
> 
> I get it, writing (another form of therapy) is not for everyone. The trick with this is to write freely and don’t analyze it until much later—a release. When going back and reading what is written, things usually come a little clearer, if not keep writing. I still write whether I’m up, down, or all around. This is just me, but I’ve seen it help others.
> 
> ...


I know that therapy is not for everyone, but squirt showed that certain methods of therapy could be improved to a point, that maybe we could try it to broaden our world.
But I'm also quite realistic, setting up a system like this is quite expensive, I don't think a public health system could maintain it without running a deficit.

I'm glad you mentioned art as a therapy, I have played many musical instruments since I was a child, I started with the violin, classical guitar, electric guitar... until I ended up with the piano, which is what I play 99% of the time.
How many joys such an adventure has brought me, how much it has made me change.

It is difficult for me to assimilate chronic pain at the moment, I have always been very healthy, but I suffer from a severe tendinitis, which makes lifting 20 kgs (one hand) inflame my arm muscles, and certain movements need less weight.
Pretty sad for a man, but what can you do, I never got depressed about it.

I'm trying to understand everyone, I also liked the comment an user said about living in nature, which also ends up being quite philosophical... We think that technology will make us happier, but is it really like that?


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> I know that therapy is not for everyone, but squirt showed that certain methods of therapy could be improved to a point, that maybe we could try it to broaden our world.
> But I'm also quite realistic, setting up a system like this is quite expensive, I don't think a public health system could maintain it without running a deficit.
> 
> I'm glad you mentioned art as a therapy, I have played many musical instruments since I was a child, I started with the violin, classical guitar, electric guitar... until I ended up with the piano, which is what I play 99% of the time.
> ...





> It is difficult for me to assimilate chronic pain at the moment, I have always been very healthy, but I suffer from a severe tendinitis, which makes lifting 20 kgs (one hand) inflame my arm muscles, and certain movements need less weight.
> Pretty sad for a man, but what can you do, I never got depressed about it.


Pain, chronic and acute chronic pain—I’m going to say the word/level acute was left out of the conversation. It is medically known that it does change physical chemistry. It, also, can change one’s outlook on life— sadness, defeat, etc. Depression from acute chronic pain may or may not form severe depression. Levels—as in all things there are degrees of level. That’s why another said that different types of depression all fall under the umbrella of depression.

Just like your tendinitis is “sad for a man” according to you, so it’s sad for you. You deal with it correct? You find other ways to do things, correct? You play the piano (when you can)—a form of relief, relaxation, spirit/your essence. Sadness may not actually be depression but can lead up to it, but since you deal with it finding ways to keep going, if you will.

What I’m trying to come to is that dealing with physical pain is different than dealing with mental capacity. Depending on the damage/change of the biological structures can determine if one can deal with it—medicine comes into view (and that in its self is loaded). It‘s a complex issue because the mind and body work together—one feeds the other.


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

superloco3000 said:


> I suffer from a severe tendinitis, which makes lifting 20 kgs (one hand) inflame my arm muscles, and certain movements need less weight.


I am curious as to the location of your tendonitis. 20kgs = 44lbs which is not a light weight. I've had tennis elbow and golfing elbow in my left arm but is very mild right now.


----------



## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

Theory.

I see pain as being something not wanted. Depression I see as the emotion about loss. An athlete will suffer pain from an injury. They need not be depressed about it unless they feel a loss about not being able to perform. Losing one's sight is going to be depressing for just about anyone. But a person born blind is not going to be depressed if they accept their condition and have long since found another way.

Dying means losing everything unless one is religious. If one wants to hold on they are concerned about losing. There are other emotions like fear and disappointment. If one accepts the body is tired and wants to rest, there is no depression. I'll stop here to rest unless anyone wants to go on, lol.


----------

