# "All people are type 6 unless proven otherwise"



## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

The more I roam enneagram typing threads, the more I see that the idea "All people are type 6 unless proven otherwise" has made its way into so many of them ...it's rampant around here. It's time to analyze the accuracy of this premise from which so many conclusions are drawn.

This premise _presumes_ that if someone decides on a certain enneatype, they are most likely one or more of the following: 

a) ignorant about enneagram theory
b) in denial about who they really are, and/or 
c) biased towards/against certain types (most notably, against type Six). 

Let's face it - it is belittling to assume any of the above about someone - and those who feel insulted at having their intelligence, honesty, or objectivity criticized, and show as much when accused of being undercover Sixes, are often then labeled as "defensive" and therefore in denial of their true type. Is it impossible for any type other than Six to feel insulted at these assumptions, and show as much? Is it impossible for any type other than Six to argue when someone tells them they are something they do not identify with? 

*Whenever suspicion comprises evidence, and misinterpreted interaction with the defendant is considered corroborative, the resemblance to a witch trial is astounding. *

My theory is that this presumption that "people who vehemently deny being Sixes must be Sixes in denial" is most likely inherently suspicious Sixes projecting their own (initial) denial of their true type upon others. Projection is one of the primary ways by which the brain _deceives_ itself about others and develops inaccurate suspicions. If personality theory has any validity at all, then not everyone operates like Sixes, so not everyone should be assumed to do so. 

How can it be accurate to assume of everyone that they must be ignorant, out of sorts with reality, and/or prejudiced? There are those who read and thoroughly study books by enneagram theory experts to educate themselves. There are those who genuinely want to discover their true selves and do not shrink back from honest assessment, warts and all (the most obvious of which are the Type Fours). There are those who try to rid themselves of as much subjectivity or bias as possible when seeking to determine the truth. It may be that the most mistaken, out of sorts with reality, and prejudiced, is the one who presumes these things of others. We tend to read in others what we do ourselves. Simply, assuming people are most likely 6s, 3s, or 9s, is a bias that colors reality...and many people are viewing members of this forum through the lens of that bias.

Some people clearly do not understand how trauma affects the brain, or the difference between trauma response and brain default settings. Personality type = brain default settings. Trauma can adjust how someone thinks or responds to the world, resulting in anxiety, suspicion, or specific Six-ish behaviors: _this does not make them a type Six_. Learn to distinguish the two. Study psychology, educate yourself about PTSD before verbalizing your conclusions. People with PTSD may react violently and this has nothing to do with being a Six. Some traumatized individuals have been seriously hurt on enneagram forums due to inconsiderate comments related to all of this...and those who are sure they know them better than they know themselves make them feel worse by adding "completely misunderstood" to their already long list of difficult struggles. 

Frankly - only a small subset of the world population has been professionally enneatyped (or typed accurately on their own). Statistics about type distribution are drawn from that very limited subset, so there is no guarantee of their accuracy or adequate representation of the world at large. These statistics indicate that most people are 3s, 6s, and 9s.

Some take this statistical model and determine that those around them who are not one of the three most common types could be mistyped, because they don't match the model. Why must the data be bent and modified to fit the statistical model, instead of the model revised to better reflect the data? Aren't models supposed to be representations of reality, rather than the dictators of reality? 

Opinions?

EDIT: I hope anyone who reads this will know that I am not speaking against any individuals who hold this idea as true. I like - on a personal level - everyone who seems to hold this idea, they often have studied the enneagram in depth, and are extremely nice and helpful people who just want to help others discover their type. This thread questions an _idea_, a premise underlying the typing going on in these forums; it is not meant as anything negative against those who hold that idea.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I want to marry this thread.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree. I do feel like sometimes, a person is judged as a Six because they don't seem themselves as Sixes. Why doesn't this apply to other types ? I feel like, because of the stigma associated with being a Six, when someone doesn't feel like a Six, it's OBVIOUSLY because they're rejecting it. Why doesn't it occurr to them that this person could just simply not see themselves in this type? Maybe they're just not in that place right now. *After all, this test is self report. It's all about how you see yourself at this point in your life. *At an earlier point in my life where I was doing anything but be myself, had I taken the test, I would've typed as a Seven for sure. That was how I saw myself. I was in denial, but that's the beauty of it, finding yourself in the end. 

I'm sure everyone has gone through a phase where they thought they were a certain type and turned out not to be. To this day, browsing forums, I see people posting about their experience as Nines for example and their current type being a Type 5. I think the excessive bad stereotyping of the Six makes the "denial" of this type a shameful, bad thing that should be mocked, while really this happens with every other type. 

I'm not denying that in some cases, some people are OBVIOUSLY Sixes that go out of their way to deny it. Either way though, it shouldn't turn into a struggle because as long as the person is in denial, it's highly unlikely that they're going to have a sudden epiphany. 



> Some take this statistical model and determine that those around them who are not one of the three most common types could be mistyped, because they don't match the model. Why must the data be bent and modified to fit the statistical model, instead of the model revised to better reflect the data? Aren't models supposed to be representations of reality, rather than the dictators of reality?


Agreed! It irks me when people, upon seeing you're not part of three most common types, immediately assume you're mistyped. I feel uncomfortable knowing that people who see my "Type 4" would think 'Huh, she's obviously mistyped'. I seriously had NO idea Fours were rare before lurking a little more on the forums and seeing members talking about it. Before that, I knew I was a Four but didn't feel like a ~*super speshul snowflake*~ because of it. In fact, I think this whole common-rare thing is just pointless, and in no way benefits the Enneagram theory, except by making some types envious of others and portraying the "rare" types as either mistyped or Sixes in denial lol. 



> There are those who genuinely want to discover their true selves and do not shrink back from honest assessment, warts and all (the most obvious of which are the Type Fours).


True story.


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

@_emerald sea_

I think your points are very interesting, and I agree that trauma will affect the brain. For myself, I was abused from early childhood. The abuse lasted from ages 3-22. I knew, even as a young child, that something was very, very wrong. At age 7, my father committed an atrocious act of violence against me- long story short, I broke a rule of my former religion without knowing it, and he basically said I had done a terrible, filthy thing- then proceeded to beat the living daylights outta me. It was at this age that I can recall feeling like I was a bad person, like I had been defiled. I repressed the memory for years, and then it came back to haunt me in my early 20s. I used to find security in my former faith- I thought if I held onto that, then I would be okay, and "God would save me." Six years ago, I lost my faith after an on-off faith crisis that seemed to begin in my late teens. I stupidly admitted this to my mother, and she basically told me I would go to hell if I left the faith. I eventually left because I came to the conclusion that a truly loving deity would not condone the religion I left. The teaching of hell belief did a lot of damage, and it is only recently that I have made strides to overcome the issue.

I think, that as someone who believed she was a 6, I should say that one of the final decisions I made in trying to decide between 6 and 1 was this: "Do I see the world more as a dangerous place, or as a corrupt place?" My answer was this: "Yes, the world is dangerous. And danger is_ bad_." A lot of the "danger" in this world, from my perspective, has been caused by humans who behave in disgusting and despicable ways. And I am not afraid to say that. To me, bad trumps dangerous. Every time. That is one of the things that broke the tie for me, but it wasn't the only thing.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

I guess the poll I made was kinda a trigger for you to make this thread.

Nobody is saying that all people with anxiety disorders are 6s nor are all 6s diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. And nobody says all people are 6s until proven otherwise. (In the 4 forum, there are also 3s and 9s and sometimes an 8...and a 7...and what not...and of course: there are also about 3/4 of 4s. :tongue

But if there's a 6w7 who insists they're a 4 but all their motivations they talk about are so 6w7ish that it hurts, being able to relate to E4 descriptions doesn't make them/us 4s. Especially 6w7s usually don't relate to 6 and they don't want to be 6s because it makes them feel misunderstood. And then they run from 6 and try to research and research for other possible types they might be...which also makes them think they might be 5s. And they get always back to 4...and insist on having 4 in their tritype (for some it's true, of course) even if they have a 2 or 3 fix. Many 6w7s even don't feel consciously anxious. They just question things. 

It's just the way it is and even if it can sometimes sound unfair...6w7s are not 4s - even though a 6w7 can look quite like a 4w3 from the outside. But they don't look like a 4w3 if you look at their motivations.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_PlushWitch_ - it wasn't a single thread that motivated this; it was nearly every typing thread i've read in the enneagram forum, that prompted this. over and over i've seen people pushed with the "you are a Six" idea to the point of feeling harassed, by those who obviously mean well (and who i like a lot, as people) and are clearly going out of their way trying to help them - all based on this premise. 

i haven't seen _you_ insisting that people are type 6s on typing threads, Plush, and this post is about those typing threads, although your poll made me realize the role that statistics played in supporting this idea and causing people to insist that others were type 6s. you were one of the people who helped me the most in figuring out my type...all that information you went out of your way to put together for me, that you sent me by PM after i had stopped posting in my 4 vs. 9 thread. i hope you know i appreciate you.  besides, disagreeing with someone's ideas isn't meant as anything against them as a person...this thread isn't directed at people; it is directed at ideas - questioning a premise that seems to underlie a lot of the typing that goes on in this forum. 

p.s. i feel like a jerk for making you feel bad. i never wanted to make anyone feel bad, especially you. i am sorry.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

Bravo!!!! Thank you for speaking, what I'm sure, is on so many members minds. We've all had different life experiences, are at different levels of health and are HUMAN BEINGS. I do wish the "witch hunt" mentality would go away; not just for type 6's, but all types in general.


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

That 6w7 vs 4 is a hell, honestly


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## Tragic (Jan 31, 2011)

The process by which someone is convicted of being a 6 is identical to the process by which someone is convicted of being a witch. So all sixes are witches and all witches are sixes.


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

IMO the problem is that people try to find their type by reading the behavioral descriptions rather that studying the core fears of each type.

For example, a 1's core fear is being "essentially bad/evil/damned" the perfectionism and authoritarian tendencies of the 1 comes out a fear that their instincts will harm them and so repress those instincts.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

I didn't stabilize before I let go of my six label and realized that doing sixish things was unhealty for me.
Now that I pursue threeish ways and live as a nine do I feel at ease.

It is important to take a long hard look at oneself and be honest about what is going on in ones life.
Having people saying that you are a six should only be done when there are evidence to support it,
not to put any unsure case in some default category. That is pure lazyness and ignorance.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Heh, awesome thread @_emerald sea_, this issue is something a friend of mine here wrote to me about just a few days ago! I admire you two for being so observant.

I must be one of these... Since I came here, I've been told by certain people that I'm a 6w7 - even when I thought otherwise, I could relate to type Four so strongly and hadn't even considered being a Six at that point. Anyway, I was made to question my type and I became so confused... Also sad for not being seen as who I felt I was. I feel I got between two walls, the first one is my SO (who is Six by himself) being absolutely sure I was a Four and the other one is some people in this place insisting I'm a Six. And all I ever wanted here was to find myself, be more aware of myself and then grow.

Some might say I'm a lunatic, studying Enneagram and myself every day for much more than a year... And I might just be that. And yet, I cannot stop, I am 100 % devoted to know more, more, more... And to be honest, I'm still not 100 % sure how I feel about this and myself. Some things will always feel unlike me no matter what type I am and I do not even wish to be like some description. But I wish to find myself, re-create my identity and form a more stable sense of myself. And I am sure that eventually I will  I wish anyone here would have a peace to solve their personal quests, this is a wonderful place


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

emerald sea said:


> p.s. i feel like a jerk for making you feel bad. i never wanted to make anyone feel bad, especially you. i am sorry.


Nooo...! *HUGS* :happy:

Somehow I just can't see where people are being typed as 6s while they aren't. 

It just happens again and again that there comes a 6w7 who thinks they're a 4 but describe primarily 6ish motivations. And in those 6w7 cases the typing really seems extremely unfair, unjustified and brutal since those 6w7s seem to suffer when they're being "accused" of being a 6 (and sometimes of not even having it in their tritype) while they actually relate so much to 4. I'm speaking from my own experience... and I can't imagine any other cases this impression might come from. 

...though actually think that 9s might be the only ones that really suffer when they're being mistyped as 6s. And I also think they're the ones who get mistyped as 6s most often.


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## heaveninawildflower (Feb 5, 2012)

zallla said:


> And all I ever wanted here was to find myself, be more aware of myself and then grow.
> Some might say I'm a lunatic, studying Enneagram and myself every day for much more than a year... And I might just be that. And yet, I cannot stop, I am 100 % devoted to know more, more, more... And to be honest, I'm still not 100 % sure how I feel about this and myself. Some things will always feel unlike me no matter what type I am and I do not even wish to be like some description. But I wish to find myself, re-create my identity and form a more stable sense of myself. And I am sure that eventually I will  I wish anyone here would have a peace to solve their personal quests, this is a wonderful place


And I wish you peace as well on your journey of discovery.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

...what I wanted to add is that the "special snowflake" part of type 4 appeals a lot more to 6w7s with a 2w3 fix (for example) than it usually does to 4s themselves.

EDIT: Especially when they're quite an uncommon JCF type... Because of their 6ness they'll be aware of the fact that they're not quite like most people.


And I absolutely love the description on the following site: six with seven wing

Here a few quotes from it:



> [...]inner conflict between flamboyance and caution can produce a person who is emotionally rather volatile, similar in some ways to *4/3*.[...]
> 
> [...] Unbalanced 6/7 is usually visibly desperate. Anxiety and insecurity become powerful controlling influences. Jumping from one colorful emotional state to another, trying to find any way to quell the increasing sense of uncertainty and vulnerability [...]
> 
> [...]As tension mounts, highly stressed 6/7 will try anything to escape from the increasingly intolerable situations that arise. Others move away from a person whose impulsive grabbiness and dependent gestures become unpleasantly intrusive.[...]



...now that I think of it, there's exactly one person who gives me the feeling of "All people are type 6 unless proven otherwise"...


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

PlushWitch said:


> ...what I wanted to add is that the "special snowflake" part of type 4 appeals a lot more to 6w7s with a 2w3 fix (for example) than it usually does to 4s themselves.


Can you explain that further? You mean the "special snowflake" part of being a rare type?


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

I've also noticed this, along with another seemingly common trend:

"it is highly unlikely that you are type 4 and MBTI type____". 
"it is highly unlikely you are a triple _______".
"it is highly unlikely you are a core 4 because they are rare".

That is, except when it comes to themselves...then it's ok to be a special case :laughing: 

All of those statements might very well be true, but I Just find it funny when people constantly state these things (usually in a condescending way) while claiming to be the exception themselves.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

kaleidoscope said:


> Can you explain that further? You mean the "special snowflake" part of being a rare type?


Hm...what I mean is like: 'I'm a "special snowflake" so I must be a/the rare and misunderstood type." 
In my case it was more like: "Others think I think I'm a special snowflake. Oh well... maybe I am a special snowflake or wrong or better or whatever than others after all..." 

But I didn't even know type 4 was rare when I thought that it was my type. I just constantly test/ed as it and could relate a lot to type 4 descriptions - but not to 6. It's just that the type 4 descriptions sound as if 4s were a "special snowflake" kind of people - no matter how common or rare they actually are.

The 6w7 description I linked to and quoted from is the only one I could embrace.


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

@_PlushWitch_

Your 6w7 descriptions seem to fit my sister a lot. She lives to socialize, will form friendships with people who treat her like dirt (and then becomes upset over this, but will still keep the same friends because she "Can't find better ones". Even when she has found "better friends", she has often kept some of the same ones who treated her like crap. She does seem to have some escapist tendencies as well, which often take the form of substance use/abuse (mostly binge drinking, in her case). Like with me, my father tried to isolate her, and because she had such a strong social need, she would often lie about her activities (which is common to a situation like this, but lying about her social whereabouts became an art that she fine tuned- she *desperately* wanted social outlets, and would do whatever she could to get them). She is emotionally all over the place, but that part, I believe, comes from being abused (she received less abuse than I did growing up, but she was also severely damaged by it).


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

Edited. I think @Enfpleasantly has answered the question that was on my mind.


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

PlushWitch said:


> ...though actually think that 9s might be the only ones that really suffer when they're being mistyped as 6s. And I also think they're the ones who get mistyped as 6s most often.


Why do you believe that 9s suffer most when they are mistyped as 6s?


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Steel Magnolia said:


> She is emotionally all over the place, but that part, I believe, comes from being abused (she received less abuse than I did growing up, but she was also severely damaged by it).


I'm sorry that you two had to go through this. :sad:

But I must say that even though I didn't have an easy childhood for different reasons I've never been abused...my mother - who's a 6w7 as well and HAS been abused - is a lot less explosive than I am.


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

PlushWitch said:


> I'm sorry that you two had to go through this. :sad:
> 
> But I must say that even though I didn't have an easy childhood for different reasons I've never been abused...my mother - who's a 6w7 as well and HAS been abused - is a lot less explosive than I am.


I wouldn't describe my sister as "explosive". My father, yes (I believe he is a CP 6w5). He wants to control those who are closest to him, and wants them to respect and love him no matter what (sounds like a messed up concept of loyalty, to me). My sister tends to be moody and likes to complain about her friends a lot, but she will only "go off" on someone if they've made her really, really upset.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> ...what I wanted to add is that the "special snowflake" part of type 4 appeals a lot more to 6w7s with a 2w3 fix (for example) than it usually does to 4s themselves.
> 
> EDIT: Especially when they're quite an uncommon JCF type... Because of their 6ness they'll be aware of the fact that they're not quite like most people.
> 
> ...


Plush, thank you for responding in such a sweet way. *hugs* back . i seriously hope i haven't hurt you. you know you are well-loved around here, and that hasn't changed, right?  

you bring up very valid points that are undeniable...Sixes can mistype as Fours. however, what @_TaylorS_ says is really the issue here - the differentiation between certain types lies in what is internal, not in the external, which is what is visible to others trying to type a person. how can anyone be sure they are reading someone's motivations accurately, without being inside their head? perception is often not equivalent to reality, because of the interference of (unwitting) projection and misinterpretation. there can be too much overcertainty in our perception. without presuming the worst about people (delusion or denial), we have nothing left to assume but that the individual knows, better than anyone else, what it is that motivates, frightens, or depresses them. 

like Riso says,


> Confusion arises between these two types principally on the part of Sixes who think they are Fours for two main reasons. First, some Sixes identify with the negative side of the Four (depression, inferiority, self-doubt, and hopelessness, for example) and think they must be Fours because they recognize similar traits in themselves. *The difference lies in the motivation for these traits.* For example, while all the types can become depressed, Fours do so because they are disappointed with themselves for having lost some opportunity to actualize themselves. They become depressed when they realize that in their search for self, they have gone down a blind alley and now must pay the price. Unhealthy, depressed Fours are essentially angry at themselves for bringing this on themselves or for allowing it to happen.
> 
> In contrast, Sixes become depressed when they fear that they have done something to make their allies or authority figures angry with them. Their depression is a response to their self-disparagement; it comes from the fear that the authority is angry at them and will punish them. Thus, the depression of Sixes is based on repressed _anxiety_. This is not the case with Fours, whose depression is based on repressed feelings of _hatred_ toward the self and others.


(quoted from Understanding the Enneagram by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson, p.225)

personally, i don't identify myself as a Four merely because i'm highly emotional and artistic - other types can be emotional and artistic. it is what matters most to me in life (being true to self), that results in my fears and my depression (the idea of its loss or violation) that points clearly to me what is my core type. when i think about my most profound fears, and the lowest emotional points in my life, they have been related to my identity, losing touch with it or not actualizing it (cf. Four health levels). there is an internal all-consuming obsession with remaining true to self.

so although the two can be confused, the difference lies in _internal_ motivation, something which only the individual themself has access to, since only they are inside their own head...or at least we hope so! lol anyone who is viewing the individual from the outside and trying to type them cannot see their internal motivations, so that individual's recognition of who they are inside should take precedence over the opinions of others. THIS is the source of my concern over all this "You are a Six in denial" talk i've seen...who could possibly distinguish between a Six and a Four _from the outside_, when the only distinguishing factor is hidden _inside_ the individual? that's all i'm trying to say in my OP post...we cannot know others better than they know themselves, and it's not fair to assume the worst about people (e.g. that they are biased or in denial) when such assumptions are often not accurate.

on a side topic~ i think more research needs to be done in terms of how enneagram tritypes display themselves in different MBTI types - it seems that sometimes cognitive functions get confused with enneatypes, and vice versa...it's hard not to wonder how much the conflict between the two can result in complexity that is difficult to type accurately.


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

Steel Magnolia said:


> Why do you believe that 9s suffer most when they are mistyped as 6s?


Oh, hadn't seen this...

...because they're kinda nailed to their desintegration point and don't even try to act more like 3s even though it would be helpful... that's the rational explanation... otherwise it's just a feeling I can't explain right now. lol


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Honestly, 6 is the first type that I feel is accurately in place.

Initial type when taking an Enneagram quiz: 3. Looked up a lot of the stuff and I'm like  ... that's probably more like who I sometimes wish I could be or maybe what I appear as if I do more work or something.

Second typing: 9w8, which made sense. I started realizing that while it is _definitely_ in my tri-type, I was reading more 6 descriptions in comparison and it sounded way more like me than the 9. 6w7 in particular. I feel like that's a pretty correct representation of me.
I took this site's quiz and the former was my main type the first time and 6w7 was the most recent. I think I'm a self-preserved dominant on the instinct.

Hopefully third time's a charm.


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## SillyMcGoose (Apr 2, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I've also noticed this, along with another seemingly common trend:
> 
> "it is highly unlikely that you are type 4 and MBTI type____".
> "it is highly unlikely you are a triple _______".
> ...


This comment spoke to my soul.. in a completely generic, unexceptional way, of course. 

Actually, I'll add one from the six forum (you know, to ensure we go full circle here) "well, if you're a phobic 6.. you have to be an introvert and if you're a counterphobic 6 you have to be an extrovert."

And I've successfully continued my streak of contributing _nothing_ to the discussion.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Nice read, you made some interesting valid points here.

I only typed myself as a 6 a few weeks ago, i didn't fill out any questionaire for feedback either. I did get feedback from a few people, and after reading the description, it felt more like me than type 7, which was my previous type. I was very shocked when i announced on the 6 forum about this change, shocked at the reaction. I was praised for coming forward with this new found type, HUH. Up until that point i had no idea 6's were viewed any different, we're not well accepted. This was a weird concept to me, really, it still is. Then i started following this campaign that 8's were changing to 6's to offer support, again WTF, why? I don't need support of any kind with just about everything in my life, so where does this concept of support come from, again, bizzare and confused.

Personally the only place i have read such bad and negative things about 6's were here at the forum. This is why i do my research in other places outside of PerC. I'm sick of all the stereotypes, webbed misconceptions and second guesses from people who are following the negative bunny trail. I still don't grasp why 6's get a bad rap. I'm very confident in my decision making process, there is very little i fear, my friends would describe me as a dare devil, not this timid women who fears every move she makes. Internal anxiety with circumstances has nothing to do with fear of people and life itself. 

This is the exact reason i didn't fill out the questionaire. People will find a way to twist your words around and make it into something that it isn't. Now with that said for those who do, they shouldn't expect anything but opinions, not facts. If you ask for help, don't complain when opinions are given, or don't ask, simple. This is a site where people have lots of different opinions,( including myself ) they may see things in us that are so far from our reality. I have a hard time posting in the 6 forum at times, because i can see how people are relating 6 with so much fear, depressing to say the least. I find myself saying " really "...laughing. Of course its very possible that some 6 do face those kind of fears this is true, but it's not out of the question that some of that is exaggerated in order to appeal or confirm the 6 within. Not only do i not identify with any of that, i want to remain true with what 6 means for me and how i see myself.

I don't want pity, not here, nor in my reality. If i'm in an anxious state, i want someone to logically walk me though things. O.k, i suppose that is supporting in itself, although the meaning of support and 6 here is taken totally out of context. Every type needs some sort of support in their daily lives, so why take this word so_ literally_ and turn it into something so_ drastic_. Healthy 6 don't need the kind of support that is being expressed here . I really loath when things are taken out of context, or made to look so much worse than it is. I consider myself a healthy 6 who knows the difference between fear of life vrs fear of circumstances. And who knows, maybe i'll wake up tomorrow and reconsider the whole thing. ENNG for me is not an easy concept, and from reading around here, it isn't that simple for others either.

My final thoughts are this. If you ask, expect opinions. If you don't want an opinion, then don't ask or get insulted if the opinions aren't what you want to hear. You can't judge the person who is stating their opinion, people can't have it both ways.

And for the love of God, don't pick apart post and relate that with some sort of ENNG. People will have opinions or share things about who they are that are not ENNG related, or not making ENNG part of their personal experiences. So please, stop that, it isn't logical. The worse thing i could hear from anyone at this point is, oh, that's because you're a 6. No, i fear rape because i am human, duh. I fear spiders because, hum, some humans just do.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I really appreciate that you started this thread. I'll address quoted points further below. Before that, I'll touch on the whole 6 theme and why I am even bothering to respond to your thread. 
*
This is coming from the perspective of the person who helped create the questionnaire to streamline the process, make it more organized and to make sure typing was done in a compassionate and respectful manner. * In the past, I have seen the kind of borderline harassment you speak of on this forum and on other forums. I have seen people make intrusive assumptions about people's motivations, going so far as to accuse them of lying. Because I find such behaviour irrational and disrespectful, I have made it a point to NOT cross anyone's personal boundaries when I help with their type. I have not, since the Questionnaire's creation, seen any kind of harassment, insult and disrespect on other typers' ends not just my own. If you have, I encourage you to share all the links here. I want to see them, and I will deal with this.
*
Two things:*_*

1. I didn't help set the process in motion for it to be abused and used in abusive ways. 

2. I did not help create the questionnaire to deal with immature, disrespectful, ungrateful, presumptuous, defensive and disrespectful people to misuse the process and waste typers' time*._ 

In the past few months, I have seen more disrespect and serious ad hominems directed towards myself and a few other people helping with typing. I have not seen one typer use these puerile tactics, because that's what these are.[/B] *I have even received disrespectful PMs from people because I said they were a Type other than 4/8 AND because they specifically asked for my input.* 


The fact is a Type 4 does not feel controlled and violated from a mere suggestion that they're a 6. They will walk away misunderstood and this feeling of being misunderstood intensifies their feelings of difference and superiority. Feeling controlled and violated in this manner is indicative of the 6 fixation, note that I didn't say it's specific to 6s. That said, the vast majority of people who lose their cool and feel severely disrespected over this are 6s. 


*When we react aggressively or passive aggressively or with discomfort to something, it is because it touches a raw nerve*. If I were to say, emerald sea you eat babies. How would you respond? You know it's absurd. You would either laugh it off or not dignify me with a response. Now, if I were to say something that hits closer home in a way that touches a part of you that you're not at peace with (whether or not you consciously understand why that's the case), you will likely defend yourself or at least not be happy with my comments unless you were exceptionally self-aware. Any such feelings of discomfort are the typee's responsibility to explore, assuming no one has provoked them for a reaction and/or insulted them. 


*So, if a typer were to insult someone, insinuate they were lying or try to devalue their experiences, make personal assumptions, cross their personal boundaries, responding with aggression would be totally fine and unrelated to type. If someone insults you, I encourage you talk right back and strongly assert your boundaries. That should settle this. *


*I completely agree with you when you say that people should not automatically assumed to be 6s because they claim an 8, 5, 4 or whatever typing. I have been countering this knee-jerk reaction for a while now. So many people who typed as 6s have contacted me, and after speaking with them, I concluded that they were not 6s at all. And, I told them as much. *

@kaleidoscope typed as a 4. When I read her questionnaire, I said she seemed like a 4. I don't know how @NingenExp is currently typing, but I think he is a 4. *He thinks he is a 6, so I hope he doesn't think I am harassing him or 'accusing' him of being a 4.* Have you ever realized that calling someone a 4 or an 8 is not taken as an insult but suggesting they're a 6 is taken as the most insulting comment imaginable? It is considered an accusation. Now, I am sure you know why the term accusation is so telling. It's as though being a 6 were a shameful crime. Mind you, I've been challenged to shame people into proving they're sixes. The deal is I don't give a flying fuck about wasting my time to shame people into anything, but if you're issuing me a stupid challenge of that nature, it's obvious that you have something to prove. And it's possible that you're reacting with unwarranted aggression because you do, in fact, connect with 6 at some levels...some really uncomfortable levels. Finding one's type can be a gut-wrenching process. Discovering I was a 3 left me in tears. And, they were not happy tears I assure you. 




______________________________________________________________


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Now, your quoted points:



> a) ignorant about enneagram theory
> b) in denial about who they really are, and/or
> c) biased towards/against certain types (most notably, against type Six).



a) If I sense you're not well-versed in Enneagram theory, I will let you know. The truth is that a lot of people are not very well-versed in Enneagram theory. They have, at most, read a bunch of poor descriptions online OR read one of RH's books (this is saying a lot). Most 6 descriptions online describe the type as cowards, as fearful, anxious, dependent nervous wrecks. I have spent the past few months dispelling negative stereotyping of 6s, 2s and 1s. And I assure you that plenty of people I and some others typed as 6s are not miffed about the typing, and are actually happy that they got something out of their threads. 

If you have read Naranjo, Maitri, Almaas, Rhodes and other good authors and have been studying the Enneagram and seriously introspecting, out of respect for your journey and the kind of effort you were able to place into it all, I will treat your conclusions with a lot more consideration even if I may disagree with them. I often walk away when I can tell that people are putting in work instead of just bickering back and forth online. I let them know they can contact me if needed. I also walk away when people are just bickering back and forth 

b) Yes, people can be in denial. I don't like to use this line though because it's presumptuous. There are better ways of telling people that there is a wide chasm between who they say they are and how they present themselves. I have seen people say they rarely get offended and then vomit aggressive childish reactions all over their threads the next minute, without provocation. 

c)The bias towards Type 6 is a VERY REAL bias. Type 6 is the most widely misunderstood type on the Enneagram. It's also the MOST complex type on the Enneagram, so it's understandable that people would have trouble seeing them as 6s because it's such a contradictory type. I make it a point to ultra patient with people who I think are 6s, because just from studying the Enneagram, I realize that it's just a very difficult type to get a hang of. 

Now if the person in question were to start getting all bitchy with me, they should fully expect that I'll be quick to put an ass in check. This applies to everyone, regardless of what type they proclaim and what type I think they are. It's an issue of respect. I will treat you with respect, and I will demand it. 

_________________________________


A quote from Riso-Hudson that addresses some of your points:



> We have also discovered a third significant way to group the nine types that we have named The Harmonic Groups. We noticed that for each primary type (those located on the equilateral triangle, the Three, Six, and Nine) there are two secondary types which seem very much like it in numerous ways—and that people repeatedly misidentified themselves as a result of the similarities between these types. For example, Nines often misidentified themselves as Twos or Sevens; we also repeatedly saw that Threes misidentified themselves as Ones or Fives, and *Sixes were almost notorious in misidentifying themselves as either Fours or Eights.*


*Link:* The Harmonic Groups


__________________________________________
Lastly, you made a point that people suggesting others were sixes were in fact sixes themselves LOL. Do you see how presumptuous this point is? Do you also see how you're exhibiting the same hypocritical presumptuousness that people display when they discredit someone's points because they assume the person is a self-hating 6, whether or not the person in question has in fact 'projected' any kind of self-hate/aggression or what have you, on them? 

It's very interesting to me because when I changed my type to 6 for a few days. I got PMs from people (again the "4s" and "8s" ) replete with negative comments about 6s and statements along the lines of "Oh, I always knew you were a 6! No wonder you were calling me a 6!". Right! Very logical, indeed. 

I will give it to you, in the interest of honesty, that I have seen some 6s shove a 6 typing down people's throat, provoke them and prod them for reactions, play Devil's advocate, try to pull people back into a conflict to 'test them', question their intentions, making personal assumptions about their motivations etc . only to prove a typing. What happens in these cases is that the immature 6 typer ends up reinforcing the impression of their own 6ness than proving the typee's sixness. But when these unhealthy 6ish behaviours are absent, it makes no sense to assume that the typer is an unhealthy 6 just to haphazardly (and passive aggressively) dismiss their observations and insights. Once again, *I have seen no evidence of such unhealthy 6 behaviour or any kind of unhealthy behaviour from any of the typers here. Like I said, if you have, I'd like to see the threads. *

With this said, I hope you will take my comments in the intended spirit.
_____________


_P.S. I have had *PTSD.* And, I am always sensitive to any mentions of mental/physical illness. Also, I always make it a point to tell people that medical anxiety is not the same as existential anxiety that 6s experience. I have typed many people who've mentioned anxiety in their answers as types other than 6. @Spades lol is one such person. 
I am sure other typers are aware of this, if not, I will ask them to take note right now._


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

^ This is why @Boss is awesomesauce.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

bravo! I wish I have something smarter to say right now, but I don't.


> People will find a way to twist your words around and make it into something that it isn't.


too true.


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## Monkey King (Nov 16, 2010)

I believe both parties are responsible for their own actions. For the typee, it is as easy as to claim the typer has overstepped their boundaries and must stop. For the typer, it is as easy as letting it go. I don't think any of the typing threads I've seen thus far illustrate what you are saying. I have however seen more threads lash at the typer for reporting a pattern they see in the response. Perhaps, we have been on different threads but this to me is as exaggerated as the existing stereotypes on the type.


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Nice read, you made some interesting valid points here.
> 
> I only typed myself as a 6 a few weeks ago, i didn't fill out any questionaire for feedback either. I did get feedback from a few people, and after reading the description, it felt more like me than type 7, which was my previous type. I was very shocked when i announced on the 6 forum about this change, shocked at the reaction. I was praised for coming forward with this new found type, HUH. Up until that point i had no idea 6's were viewed any different, we're not well accepted. This was a weird concept to me, really, it still is. Then i started following this campaign that 8's were changing to 6's to offer support, again WTF, why? I don't need support of any kind with just about everything in my life, so where does this concept of support come from, again, bizzare and confused.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this. I don't understand why non-6s started that whole campaign- to me, it sounded like people were being pushed into "non-denial of their true type." People should take pride in themselves, not look for external validation for their self-esteem.

I also agree that if you don't want peoples' opinions forced on you, then you shouldn't ask for them in the first place. Or else take them with a grain of salt and acknowledge them as precisely that- opinions. Sometimes, opinions are facts. Other times, they are not. Ultimately, people have to make up their own minds.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Because I am sick and bored from hearing the same ridiculous comments about that 'campaign', I will let you all know, for the nth time, that it was started because a Type 6 member (@Chipps) half-jokingly said that she was sad about how few 6s there were on the forum. So, Treebob and another member said they'd change their types to 6. It was done in a light-hearted spirit, and there was no "agenda" behind it. This applies to me as well, but in my case, I chose it to demonstrate that there was no shame to a 6 typing *because* I had been challenged to shame people into a 6 typing in public and in private on several occasions. 

I was NOT showing 'support' because I thought that 6s are needy lil people who 'need' such support or any other kind of support. I have already addressed it on two other threads. It is absolutely ridiculous to assume that people were being "pushed" into non-denial about their "true type" because three fuckin people on the entire forum, light-heartedly, changed their type to 6 for what? 6-7 days? 

Get over it. It was not intended to demean 6s, and it's about time people move the hell on. Stop reading into people's intentions and assuming things that never were intended to begin with.


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## paper lilies (Dec 6, 2011)

I think it's very true about the mental illness issue @emerald sea. 
This is why I was very pleased to see a question about it in @Spades new MBTI questionnaire. 
/Claps for Spades and other contributors.
It is truly hard to type yourself when you are acutely mentally ill because you're essentially typing _behavior_.
I have Bipolar I and good gravy... I could really seem like any type under the sun when my moods aren't stable. Of course people behind a computer screen, miles and miles away don't know that. 
So when others tell me that I should re-evaluate myself, I don't really take offense.
I am still working on my type and learning enneagram but I don't need to prove my type to anyone.
I trust myself, I know my own motivations and no one is going to be able to do those things for me.

Also, just to add, I didn't think @Boss or @TreeBob were demeaning anyone when they changed their type to 6. I didn't read into it that much honestly... I just thought they found out they were 6's, lmao. When I heard about the "campaign", I didn't jump to thinking that 6's were spineless little jellyfishes that need protection. I was shocked to see those accusations being made honestly. I fail to see why there were so many complaints surrounding this "issue" and why they're still going on. I've also noticed that when others joke about certain types on the forum, people come out of nowhere and jump down the posters throat. Personally, I don't care what other people do, other people's lives are none of my business.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

paper lilies said:


> Also, just to add, I didn't think @_Boss_ or @_TreeBob_ were demeaning anyone when they changed their type to 6. I didn't read into it that much honestly... I just thought they found out they were 6's, lmao. When I heard about the "campaign", I didn't jump to thinking that 6's were spineless little jellyfishes that need protection. I was shocked to see those accusations being made honestly. I fail to see why there were so many complaints surrounding this "issue" and why they're still going on. I've also noticed that when others joke about certain types on the forum, people come out of nowhere and jump down the posters throat. Personally, I don't care what other people do, other people's lives are none of my business.


This. I think people who usually type others right now are very decent and respectful, and very helpful. The things they put up with.. They not only have to hear your entire life story, but actually read between the lines and interpret for you what's your type. I've seen some of them engage *for days* in a thread that's over 10+ pages, and it's all for the sake of the typee knowing more about themselves. 

It's usually the typee that ends up being disrespectful and childish.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

I am very popular. True story


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

On the typer side, I have occasionally seen typers who demean other typers, basically saying "ignore these other guys, they're wrong", which I think is very rude and it makes everybody feel bad. You might totally disagree with the other peoples assessments, but you should show it through the strength of your argument than through pushing other people out of the way.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

@emerald sea As per your OP, yes, that's something I picked up on almost immediately after I joined PerC. 

At the time, I was undecided on my own type...I originally thought I could be a 4 or 5 due to personality traits I've shown throughout my life (some of which, similar to what you mention with PTSD, are a result of past neglect and bullying). After reading the tritype descriptions last year, I figured I was a 468 (although having a 5- or even a 7-fix would have made more sense). Then, after commenting on PerC awhile, I decided that since most 4s were apparently 6s in denial, I must therefore be a 6 (which was something I'd earlier considered, but just couldn't see).

I was so confused for so long (Ok, only a couple of months). I tried _so aggressively _to will myself into being a 6 that it actually sort of messed up how I interacted with folks IRL. Yeah, I was probably taking it all a little too seriously, but the point is that this sort of messaging can actually be destructive to one's inner journey.

I don't know which types are more common, if any. I don't think anyone has that information, and I'm not sure where the idea comes from that 6s and 9s (and possibly 3s) are the most common. Due to their curious and introspective nature, I'd be inclined to believe that 4s and 5s really are more common around PerC, and I see no reason to insult anyone's intelligence and research on these matters. If someone comes on here claiming to be an allegedly-uncommon type, I'm quite prepared to believe them. I'm here to entertain myself as I recover from a long illness, as well as to enhance my own personal journey of self-discovery. I'm not interested in typing games, and I don't have much respect for those that perpetuate them.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Owfin

I think sometimes 'typers' don't really know what they're talking about, and it hurts the typing process because inexperienced people can come in, and unintentionally confirm the typee's biases, and then it's back to square one. 

While I agree that people shouldnt make ad hominems against other typers or demean them, there's nothing wrong with critically evaluating someone's flawed insights. I have seen people who change their types every few hours give the most awful typing advice to people. Respect goes both ways. If you're still new, just say you're still learning before sharing your thoughts. Otherwise, it fucks with the integrity of the process. Plain and simple. And definitely, people asking for type, and people helping with type should show respect to each other.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

@_Boss_, 

i understand the connotations of "witch hunt" and specifically chose that term because of people who have told me how the words of others made them feel on typing threads....to disclose who these people are would be to reveal secrets confided in me and i cannot do so. the term "witch hunt" involves launching an investigation with presuppositions that may or may not be accurate, and then taking a 'confirmation bias' approach during the investigation - rather than an open-minded examination - to all the evidence or data presented; or thinking more about proving a suspicion correct than about how the people involved are affected by the process. 

in no way is this meant as any ingratitude for those who spend hours and days of their free time trying to help others discover their type. i appreciate those in this thread who pointed that out. and those who ask others to type them should expect others to type them, lol. this thread is merely meant to make people rethink their typing methodologies and presuppositions, and become aware of how they are affecting others' feelings. yes, we have to speak the truth, but we can make our best attempt to say it in a way that it does not make people feel harassed. we _are _responsible for how we affect others. in most cases i think people who make others feel harassed are not aware of it and would be sad to find out they had, and would want to know so they could avoid doing so again - and felt everyone needed to be made aware. 

i am sorry this is offensive to you, and did not at all intend to hurt you, or anyone else, for that matter, and hope you can forgive me that i have. we were friends before this thread, and i hope we still are. you have a heart of gold and a passionate spirit. you remind me of my father, a type 8 who is very passionate and intense, and very kind at heart, and has many times sacrificed himself to serve others...i am very close to him. i have not forgotten some of the ways you have rescued people on this forum from despair by reaching out to them at their lowest point, and respect you greatly for that. 

as i said in my OP, this thread was not meant as an affront against any _person_ but as the questioning of an _idea_ and approach to typing. *but*_ all _of us who type others have to ask ourselves, are we approaching their typing with potentially inaccurate presuppositions and looking solely for proof of what we already suspect rather than maintaining a truly open mind? are we making people feel harassed by the way we say things? are we pushing them too hard or too much to agree with our point of view? do we realize how strong we come across when we are sure about something, and do we realize that aggressiveness has the potential to (unintentionally) wound others? 

people should think the best of those involved in this, since i believe in most cases it is unintentional. true confessions here: Boss, growing up in a very intense and passionate family has shaped me into someone with a more powerful "presence" than i really wish to have. as a child, there was no one laid back in my immediate family. _no one_. lol my family thought of me as the 'easygoing' child by comparison. the Italian cultural influence in my family is strong, and by culture we are dramatic, direct, and passionate about _everything_ and can seem to be arguing when we are really just talking, and my dad had a huge influence in shaping me, and for a long time i wasn't aware of how what felt normal to me came across to others. i remember being jaw-droppingly shocked by a coworker who told me that i came off as too aggressive...especially since there have been many in my life who have assumed i was a pushover. in my heart i am a lamb - albeit with a sea of passionate emotions - and never want to hurt anyone, i care deeply about people, and never had any idea i came across that way to those who don't know me well, because those who know me usually say i'm sweet or nice or whatever. unintentionally i have blown people away by the intensity of my approach, and been told to back off, when i thought i was being gentle but firm, or when i was just stating my opinion about something i felt strongly or certain about...all of us who tend to be strong in our opinions and have powerful feelings need to hear how we come off to others, tone it back, and be less absolute in the way we say things sometimes...because we can make others seriously uncomfortable without even realizing it. it is my view that a lot of this is going on and people are wounding others and scaring them away from subjecting themselves to typing...all without even being aware they are doing so, and definitely without wanting to do so.

it was an attempt to bring to light what has been bothering a lot of people on this forum (take note of the number of thanks on the OP post, and there are comments i have received privately as well), of which i doubt those who are doing it are aware. sometimes the "elephant in the room" can no longer be ignored, and i figured it might bring on a firestorm, which was the last thing i wanted (given a personal extreme dislike for disharmony or interpersonal fireworks), but when people are being hurt there is no justification for staying silent, even if it costs something, so i thought, "that's it, _somebody_ has to say _something_ to stop people from being hurt, no one else has, so i will." it's an INFJ protective impulse, it's also something my type 8 dad taught me - he said you can't back down from anything just because you are afraid, you have to be willing to do what's difficult if it needs to be done...but it's something i struggle to do very often, so i have a lot of admiration for naturally courageous people like yourself. the use of a dramatic term like "witch hunt" points out how much this has shaken up some people, and my intent was to demonstrate that. to link to specific threads is to point out the people involved, but this thread is about an idea/approach, and definitely not an attempt to embarrass or call out anyone specifically. anyone who is doing this and may not be aware of it, will be more aware of it after this thread - they know who they are - and humiliating them in front of everyone, especially when they had no such intent, is not only unfair but is an ineffective way to encourage anyone to change. 

you, Promethea, and others in this thread have seen this happen, and have said as much in your posts - so i'm a bit confused (?!) by your request for proof......? i have been a member of PerC for a year now, and have seen this various times since then, if you want a time frame in which to place my comments. quantity supercedes time; it has happened often enough that _many_ people have been disturbed by it, and it's easy to read the distress of people in these threads. as far as timing is concerned - i know of a handful of people who recently commented on being disturbed by this (not sure when their threads were started). it needs to never happen again, so it needs to be addressed, regardless of whether or how often it is occurring now. many of us on this forum read through both old and new threads. for instance, i just spent a couple of hours yesterday going through whatever looked interesting in the type 8 forum, and went through every single page of threads in that forum...

i'm not condemning anyone...just refusing to ignore the "elephant in the room." xD


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

deleted post.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

emerald sea said:


> @_Boss_,
> 
> i understand the connotations of "witch hunt" and specifically chose that term because of people who have told me how the words of others made them feel on typing threads....*to disclose who these people are would be to reveal secrets confided in me and i cannot do so.* the term "witch hunt" involves launching an investigation with presuppositions that may or may not be accurate, and then taking a 'confirmation bias' approach during the investigation - rather than an open-minded examination - to all the evidence or data presented; or thinking more about proving a suspicion correct than about how the people involved are affected by the process.


First of all, I have not asked you anywhere to disclose confidential information. I respect people's privacy, and I have taken the brunt of several ad hominems from people here on Perc (regarding typing matters), for not publicly disclosing information that was shared with me in private. Under no circumstance, would I share any information confided in me, at least never without the person's express permission, and nor would I ever expect you or anyone else to do so. 

*Yes, I have seen people use the term "Witch hunt" in instances where 1. a witch hunt like process was taking place 2. and I have seen people use the term "Witch hunt" in instances where typers were merely expressing (non-abusive) disagreement with their perceptions.* The latter is not a witch hunt. 

*When people start a typing thread, they should fully expect disagreements.* If you're only wanting to get your biases confirmed, this wish will not be fulfilled. *If you're falsely accusing people of attacking you, only because they have courteously expressed disagreement, you do not have my empathy. I regard such behaviour as disrespectful and spineless. *

As for the presuppositions that may well be inaccurate, I have already elaborated upon this at length. The assumptions you stated in your OP were oversimplified versions of what truly transpires, _these days_. I will address the time frame issue in a bit. 

Once again, only because some people have said that they felt like they were being hunted doesn't mean that *typers were truly out to get them. You talk a lot about harassment, without defining it.* *There are times when people simultaneously attack others while victimizing themselves.* If this were taking place, their perception of a "Witch hunt" means absolutely nothing. I have been called names; I've been told how much people dislike me and other silly (yet personal stuff), followed by the 'accusation' that the person (who has, in fact, been hurling ad hominems in my direction repeatedly) felt like I was on a witch hunt. 

As an objective woman, I am sure you see the problem with such misrepresentations of fact. Again, since the creation of the questionnaire, I haven't seen the kind of caustic close-mindedness you allude to, recently. Though, I will give it to you that both typers and typees can do with more open-mindedness. 

* Merely disagreeing with the typee doesn't mean that the typer is only out on a power trip and cares little for the typee's emotional state.* *Setting appropriate boundaries is the typee's responsibility, and it is typer's job to respect these*. *As I and others have mentioned repeatedly on your very thread, in the past few months, there have been more childish personal attacks coming from typees* than typers pursuing a confirmation bias approach and shoving typings down people's throats. I haven't seen you address that side of the coin, even once. Why this exclusion from your, purportedly, balanced examination of the situation? 

A few mature typees have openly and honestly said that they don't want further feedback. If you're getting frustrated with the process, instead of lashing out at others and then claiming you're the victim, why not just go ahead and say "I am done with this. Thanks for your help". There are several typees who requested that their threads be closed or exited from their threads, because they no longer cared for the kind of uneasiness typing can constitute. I respect people's decisions, and so do other typers. 







emerald sea said:


> in no way is this meant as any ingratitude for those who spend hours and days of their free time trying to help others discover their type. i appreciate those in this thread who pointed that out. and those who ask others to type them should expect others to type them, lol. *this thread is merely meant to make people rethink their typing methodologies and presuppositions, and become aware of how they are affecting others' feelings.* yes, we have to speak the truth, but we can make our best attempt to say it in a way that it does not make people feel harassed. we _are _responsible for how we affect others.......


This is what I am saying. I have not seen any harrasment on typers ends in recent months, emerald sea. I haven't. What you're saying is right, and I agree with this. I'll talk about harassment below. There needs to be a *uniform definition* in place. 

We are responsible for how we affect others, and others are responsible for respecting people taking the time out to assist them, *and they are responsible for setting clear boundaries on their own threads*. If any one typee I helped came up to and said that they felt I was harassing them (and they were not [and had not] launching/ed ad hominems at me while doing so (because then you start to lose credibility and responding assertively to personal attacks doesn't count for harassment), I would be willing to apologize. And, I can say this for all other typers currently active. 

If anyone is feeling harassed, SAY IT. Say it. So people know what your boundaries are, so they don't violate your boundaries unknowingly. _Making passive aggressive comments around the forum and/or indulging in self-victimization is not the way to go._* You are responsible for your share in directing how a type me thread goes.* None of the typers here, at this time, are *bullies*. If you're hurt, speak up. Take responsibility for yourself. 




emerald sea said:


> i am sorry this is offensive to you, and did not at all intend to hurt you, or anyone else, for that matter, and hope you can forgive me that i have. we were friends before this thread, and i hope we still are. you have a heart of gold and a passionate spirit. you remind me of my father, a type 8 who is very passionate and intense, and very kind at heart, and has many times sacrificed himself to serve others...i am very close to him. i have not forgotten some of the ways you have rescued people on this forum from despair by reaching out to them at their lowest point, and respect you greatly for that.


Emerald, I am not hurt. I find the witch hunt analogy disrespectful because I have seen typers make a major effort to be respectful and receptive, often with people who are ungrateful, passive aggressive, disrespectful, insulting and worse. If you're going to talk about the typer's responsibility towards the typee, you need to make it a point to mentioned that a typee has certain responsibilities. 

Also, Your witch hunt analogy is disrespectful and dramatic because it's one-sided. *It fuels the victim mentality which keeps people from setting solid boundaries on their own threads.* 


*To people who feel this way:*

1. Learn the difference between harassment and disagreement. If someone's disagreeing with you, and you continue with the conversation and continue to seek their opinion and they disagree again, you are not being hunted. Do NOT see yourself as a disempowered victim. Tell the typer, directly, that you are no longer interested in their input, have made up your mind and want to end discussion NOW. End of story. Nobody cares to invest time in a discussion that's over.

I have seen countless cases where people walk away from a thread, and then weeks/months later they start a new one and mention me again and again for assistance or PM me. And, I am willing to assist if I have time. The thing is a lot of typees are new to this. They're unsure, and they need feedback. The same people who feel uncomfortable will sometimes approach me for feedback again, and say that they were just going through a rough time or whatever. So, it's not as simple as a "Witch hunt" ..not in every case. I am willing to emphasize open-mindedness etc., but I will not endorse compromising honesty. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

In general, It's not just insensitive to coax an upset person into a type; it's absolutely not something I have since the questionnaire was created. It's also unproductive. 

*
In essence, strong disagreement does NOT constitute a witch hunt. *

*2. To people who are being harassed:*

If the typer is abusing you, calling you a liar, devaluing your experiences, hurling personal insults in your direction, trying to pull you in after you have said that you're done with the process, playing devil's advocate and poking/prodding you for a reaction, getting other people to insult you or associating your behaviours, wrongly, with negative stereotypes, making personal and intrusive assumptions about you, pathologizing you (saying you have issues, you're ill etc.) [ @Promethea mentioned a small enneagram forum where people often engage in these tactics ], ask the typer to leave you the hell alone. AND, report them. Don't let anyone get away with disrespect. EVER. 

And thank you emerald. I am a passionate person lol.I certainly don't intend to turn typing into a negative experience for people. In fact, I deal with the newbies with kid gloves. As long as a line isn't crossed, I stroll along and offer feedback as long as it's asked of me. 





emerald sea said:


> as i said in my OP, this thread was not meant as an affront against any _person_ but as the questioning of an _idea_ and approach to typing. *but*_ all _of us who type others have to ask ourselves, are we approaching their typing with potentially inaccurate presuppositions and looking solely for proof of what we already suspect rather than maintaining a truly open mind? are we making people feel harassed by the way we say things? are we pushing them too hard or too much to agree with our point of view? do we realize how strong we come across when we are sure about something, and do we realize that aggressiveness has the potential to (unintentionally) wound others?


Absolutely. Most typers seem very open-minded, in fact. Some are so mellow in their expression that, despite my open mindedness, they make me look like a freak lol. But, definitely, typers can always do with more open mindedness, more empathy.

*And typees should think:* Do I have an open mind? AM I just here to get my biases confirmed? Am I ready for disagreements? Am I going to make sure I don't treat people, taking time out to help me, like shit only because I disagree? Am I going to let them know if I feel pushed and harassed? 





emerald sea said:


> people should think the best of those involved in this, since i believe in most cases it is unintentional. true confessions here: ...........because we can make others seriously uncomfortable without even realizing it. it is my view that a lot of this is going on and people are wounding others and scaring them away from subjecting themselves to typing...all without even being aware they are doing so, and definitely without wanting to do so.


Yes, we can make others feel uncomfortable. But, those others have a *voice* that they need to learn to use. You can't place all responsibility in typer's hands. If a typer is making a typee uncomfortable and hurt, the typer should apologize and reassess their methods. In order for this to happen, the typee needs to make their feelings known. Typers are not mind readers. For instance, I can't constantly walk on eggshells. I put in a lot of effort to be sensitive, receptive and even compassionate with typees. I am not saying that I don't make mistakes. I can come on too hard..too strong. But the typee has to let me know so I can help them better. That's their responsibility, and I expect them to play an active role in setting boundaries. 






emerald sea said:


> it was an attempt to bring to light what has been bothering a lot of people on this forum (take note of the number of thanks on the OP post, and there are comments i have received privately as well), of which i doubt those who are doing it are aware. sometimes the "elephant in the room" can no longer be ignored, and i figured it might bring on a firestorm, which was the last thing i wanted (given a personal extreme dislike for disharmony or interpersonal fireworks), but when people are being hurt there is no justification for staying silent, even if it costs something, so i thought, "that's it, _somebody_ has to say _something_ to stop people from being hurt, no one else has, so i will."


I told you that I was glad you started it because, excluding recent months, this has been a running theme not only this forum but on other forums.
_
*Let me tell you guys a little secret:* I know that 6 is the go to typing for anyone who self-types as 8,4 5 etc. I actually avoid immediately typing self-typed 4s as 6s etc. because I am aware of that bias. I want to counter-act so I can actually help. @Chipps, God..I explored core 1 with her for a while even after seeing 6 influence. The two superego types can seem similar, and I wanted to remain open minded to the possibility that Chipps might be a 1. There are many such examples where I have considered other types before 6, unless it was too blatantly obvious (in which case it's pretty obvious to typees as well). 
_

I am glad that you took the initiative to bring this to light. I take issue with some of the things you said because, while your evaluation was based on an extended time period, I assumed that you were only referring to the past few months. 

Like I said, several typers and I have worked very hard to keep the process respectful and compassionate, so seeing the witch hunt thing seemed like a disrespect given how much BULLSHIT typers have had to take from some typees without having provoked them in anyway.

I respect your protective impulse. I have it too. It's one of the reasons why I asked you to share the links, because I didn't just want to see where this crap had happened behind my back in the past few months because I sure has hell didn't see harassment or _"visible distress" _as you described it (I defined harassment above) and I wanted to speak with these people and comfort them if I could. AND, obviously, work on a solution to this. 

But, I see that this might compromise their privacy. I hadn't thought about that.
*To people who've been harassed:*
If you're comfortable, please PM me about it. I want to hear your concerns and worries. I'd like to improve the typing process, and your feedback is valuable. 




emerald sea said:


> the use of a dramatic term like "witch hunt" points out how much this has shaken up some people, and my intent was to demonstrate that. to link to specific threads is to point out the people involved, but this thread is about an idea/approach, and definitely not an attempt to embarrass or call out anyone specifically. anyone who is doing this and may not be aware of it, will be more aware of it after this thread - they know who they are - and humiliating them in front of everyone, especially when they had no such intent, is not only unfair but is an ineffective way to encourage anyone to change.


I have already touched on why the Witch hunt analogy is problematic .Just because some people feel shaken doesn't warrant the use of an analogy with a *biased* focus. The analogy, as it stands, is way too simplistic and deals in absolutes, because it doesn't address instances *(given your specific criteria)* where harassment did not, in fact, take place. And, the popularity of an analogy makes it neither justifiable nor flawless. 

I know that this thread was not meant to call people out (which sharing links would've indirectly done, and I didn't realizeit earlier). 

Again, I don't know who these people are. I haven't seen any "Witch Hunters" in recent months. But your critiques are applicable and important, nevertheless.



emerald sea said:


> you, Promethea, and others in this thread have seen this happen, and have said as much in your posts - so i'm a bit confused (?!) by your request for proof......? i have been a member of PerC for a year now, and have seen this various times since then, if you want a time frame in which to place my comments. quantity supercedes time; it has happened often enough that _many_ people have been disturbed by it, and it's easy to read the distress of people in these threads. as far as timing is concerned - i know of a handful of people who recently commented on being disturbed by this (not sure when their threads were started). it needs to never happen again, so it needs to be addressed, regardless of whether or how often it is occurring now.
> 
> i'm not condemning anyone...just refusing to ignore the "elephant in the room." xD





> The more I roam enneagram typing threads, the more I see that the idea "All people are type 6 unless proven otherwise" has made its way into so many of them ...it's rampant around here.


If it's that rampant, why haven't I seen this mentality (and the harassment which ensues) in threads (Excluding super old ones) as you seem to be implying? Given this statement, it only makes sense to ask for evidence.

The only confusing thing about my request for proof is that it'd reveal the identities of these so-called witch hunters. So, feel free to ignore the request for that reason. That said, requiring proof is not unreasonable in itself, because as someone who helped create the questionnaire with the specific intent of making the whole thing sensitive, respectful etc., I have every right to know where this is going on. And again, it had to do with time issue. I have seen it happen in the past, but not recently. And yes, I have been here longer than you have. If I were to dig up old threads, I am sure I'd find instances of said witch hunts. 

I will PM you about my own experiences with what constitutes as harassment, and how they impacted my desire to help with the questionnaire and the way I interact with typees. 

Yes, it needs to be addressed. But, it needs to be addressed in a balanced manner. It needs to be addressed that rubbishing typers shouldn't happen either nor should unfounded blames be directed to them. It needs to take into account the typee's responsibilities. It needs to take into account any changes that have taken place recently, it needs to provide a more nuanced accounts of flawed assumptions/presuppositions (I have critiqued the ones you presented. And, I will offer more as an example when I can) and it definitely needs to emphasize greater need for open-mindedness and respect all around (not just in the typer--->typee direction).


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@_Boss_

I think you have a good strategy going. When a person is a suspected 6 (and my questionnaire screamed it, lol) it might be best to get them to accept their other fixes first. It softens the blow a little bit (yes, being told your a 6 is like being told you have cancer, lol jk). I don't know why, but it seems like 6s just cannot be told theyre a 6 upfront. From what I've seen, it leads to automatic defensiveness and you can't talk them off the ledge once they get into that high anxiety frame of mind. You have to direct their attention to something else and then break it to them.:laughing: Or else you run the risk of the thread going off the deep end.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Chipps said:


> @_Boss_
> 
> I think you have a good strategy going. When a person is a suspected 6 (and my questionnaire screamed it, lol) it might be best to get them to accept their other fixes first. It softens the blow a little bit *(yes, being told your a 6 is like being told you have cancer, lol jk).* I don't know why, but it seems like 6s just cannot be told theyre a 6 upfront. From what I've seen, it leads to automatic defensiveness and you can't talk them off the ledge once they get into that high anxiety frame of mind. You have to direct their attention to something else and then break it to them.:laughing: Or else you run the risk of the thread going off the deep end.


I know you're kidding, but that's part of the problem. A major part of the 'harassment' constitutes the very suggestion that a person is a 6. I spent the last few months dispelling negative stereotyping of 6s, 2s and 1s for this reason. A lot of people have PM'd me to tell me that they feel more confident with accepting they're 6s (they just typed themselves during the past few months.). So many would browse forums where people were talking about paranoid and suspicious and cowardly 6s, sometimes on other forums.

And yes, the mere 6 suggestion doesn't just lead to automatic defensiveness (and defensiveness doesn't mean someone is a 6 because people get defensive, naturally, when you try to type them. But, there is a certain kind of exaggerated defensiveness stemming from actually relating to 6 in some ways and rejecting it aggressively- active/passive]) that some 6s tend to display. 

That's not it. At times, people come up with pretty elaborate accusations that they're being attacked/harmed even in cases where typers try their best to not only present solid reasoning, behave in a respectful way, and simultaneously work to emphasize the strengths of the type. Agreeing to disagree is one thing, but a lot of people aggressively argue back and forth until the thread goes off the deep end. And, then, they feel hunted. I am just saying that at the point you feel frustrated, just call an end to discussion. 


And, who wants to associate with a paranoid nervous wreck /sheep /loyal watchdog type or what have you. I went deep into my past and went so far as to share an incident I haven't even told most people irl. It's about this 17 year old 6w5 neighbour (Who wasn't even a close friend) who had come back to a place that had been destroyed by a bomb blast to pull me out from underneath a pile of corpses (with more bomb blasts in tow). It was among the greatest acts of courage I have ever witnessed. My life has been so tumultuous that I've seen a lot of depravity, but also a lot of fortitude. I remember asking him "omg weren't you scared?!" And his reply was "Of Course, I was." 

That's the upside of counterphobia that's rarely mentioned. Does a fuckin weakling /bag of nerves/insert lame ass stereotype have the balls to go in a place where death was nearly certain to help a neighbour, especially at age 17? No. It takes courage. Courage that a lot of 6s can have because they have stared fear many times right in the face, not just stared it in the face, but spat at it and blazed right ahead. But no, cp6s are foolhardy morons and p6s are cowards. And so, merely suggesting someone might be a 6, even based on sound reasoning, might constitute harassment for some. 

What I see missing from the OP was any scope for including the very real possibility that the harassment people feel is not always actual harassment, by definition, but even a mere suggestion of type 6 (BECAUSE the type has a bad rap) can be taken as harassment. Some 6s can walk in and say..Oh I don't know about that. But, it doesn't mean that there isn't a very real bias against 6 typings because of the type's complexity and how few people understand what the fuck it's even all about.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@Boss

I really don't get why people dislike the superego types so much. Why does everyone refuse to acknowledge how relevant they are and how they provide real benefit to the world? Lol, I kind of look at them like the parents of the enneagram. Everyone takes their role for granted but would be screwed if they weren't there.

Also, what your friend did was really brave and Im glad you are okay. I couldn't imagine going through what you've been through and still being as confident as you are :happy:. You're right, cowards run away because they only care about themselves and can live with having watched someone die if it meant saving themselves. I want to say that saving yourself is a natural thing to do since flight is built within all of us. But, the pull to do the right thing can override that basic human instinct for me. I don't know if its true for all 6s, but I think thats where the bravery comes from. Even if I am afraid, doing the right thing will trump my fear and I'll fly into action. I think it comes from not being able to live with yourself if you sat back and left someone else to die when while you saved your own ass and was in the position to help. Honestly, I can't imagine how anyone could have just run away and left you there.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Chipps
Many people ran away and left me there. Some were close relatives . And, I tried so hard to pull myself out. I was badly injured. I will always remember looking at my uncle with so much hope in my eyes, and I will always remember seeing him walk away and not give me as much as a glance. He walked away at a time when things hadn't gotten too bad, and he could've helped. So many people walked away, and I don't blame them because I am sure they feared for their own lives. After a point, it wasn't 'pragmatic' to help me. 

But, I don't know why he did. He said that we had played together when we were children, and he couldn't watch me die. He also said that he was angry that people who could've helped me..didn't. He says that he felt a mix of intense fear and anger, that he just couldn't hold himself back. His conscience didn't allow it (Yeah those horrible superego types with the strong conscience...how lame they can be...doing the right damn thing is so not cool *eye roll*) I do salute his courage. 

And the bias against superego types is inane beyond words can express.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Boss said:


> If the typer is abusing you, calling you a liar, devaluing your experiences, hurling personal insults in your direction, trying to pull you in after you have said that you're done with the process, playing devil's advocate and poking/prodding you for a reaction, getting other people to insult you or associating your behaviours, wrongly, with negative stereotypes, making personal and intrusive assumptions about you, pathologizing you (saying you have issues, you're ill etc.) [ @Promethea mentioned a small enneagram forum where people often engage in these tactics ], ask the typer to leave you the hell alone. AND, report them. Don't let anyone get away with disrespect. EVER.


All good points. I have seen this happen a ton there, and I hope to keep that behavior away from perC. Thanks for addressing it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Promethea

You're welcome. I have tried to see to it that such abuse doesn't take place on Perc; and if it does, people know how to handle it. I am glad you take as seriously as you do.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

Yeah, the bit with superego types... okay, at heart, I am not much of a moral person. This is sad but true. But in a moral situation, I always get this _prick_ in my mind, and it reminds me what I know I ought to do. If I try to ignore it it just grows stronger, because I know what I'm doing is wrong. I can't live with myself doing the wrong thing.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

@_Boss_

Thats possibly the most horrible thing in the world. It made my stomach turn just thinking about him looking at you and just walking away. I'd imagine that I'd damn near give my own life to save a child even if the child wasn't mine. I'm glad you survived though because the world would be a sad place without you. 
@_Owfin_

You know, thats why I thought I couldn't have a type 1 fix. I don't consider myself to be a moralistic person. However, I agree that when it comes to situations where the right thing and the wrong thing are presented to you, I have to do the right thing. I can't override the feeling. It will eat me up if I dont. My idea about what is right and wrong extends to things that are distinctively right or wrong. You won't here me saying that drinking is amoral or doing recreational drugs are amoral or that sex is amoral. I mean, I don't get why people do them to excess, but I can't say they are definitely wrong. However, when it comes to things like abusing another person or animal, being unjust or unfair, manipulation or lying, leaving someone to die while you save yourself, I will not let it stand. It could have nothing to do with me personally and I will defend that person. Nothing is worse then when people stand by and do nothing. It lights an unimaginable fire under my ass and I'll become a force to be reckoned with.


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is my opinion (more formally a rant):

I recognize I lack confidence in my self-awareness and introspection. I know I'll be "happy" if suddenly I felt confortable with my self-typing. It would be great, after discovering myself, to say that I'll start my journey, but I can't assure it. I could be just looking for a place to belong. Everything here points me out that I think like a six. I know that I only trust (or will trust) in my own conclussions (some conclussions I'll get if someday I felt them concluding enough) and in others' only if I feel identified with them. Writting this makes me think I'm looking for understanding or maybe I'm looking for some kind of reaffirmation. I lack a sense of inner guidance and I admit that the enneagram is not granting it to me. Maybe I came here to find a model to guide my philosophical and spiritual life (an interpretation, an explaination) with the hope that this restlessness that's always accompanying me will dissappear after accomplishing it. All cerebal types lack a sense of inner guidance and that's why I also thought about being a 5, but again I feel I cannot deny being a six, because everything seems to become sixish in front of my eyes and it's not a happy thought. I struggle with the fact of being reduced into six, because in someway I end up feeling I am not a six, because I don't want to be identified with that label. I don't know why I don't like being a six, maybe it's because I am one of them and I don't want to admit my darkness. Not feeling a "six" and not wanting to be one is mostly fault of the theory. I know I'm blaming everyone except me; if I weren't so unsure, I wouldn't feel it, I wouldn't consider this behavior telling enough to make me a real six, but at least it's true. There are a lot of places I want to charge my frustration, but I'm so coward to put it there. Not today. I always get this impression, that I'm not understanding it at all. It would be great for me to state that sixes are the most misunderstood of the enneagram because that makes me feel someway proud, but I feel I will never deserve to be perceived that way, neither from me. If I am a six, then sixes are totally unpredictable and hard to pin out, until they start showing their internal dilemmas. I don't know what to do with this feeling. It's erasing me completely.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Owfin said:


> Yeah, the bit with superego types... okay, at heart, I am not much of a moral person. This is sad but true. But in a moral situation, I always get this _prick_ in my mind, and it reminds me what I know I ought to do. If I try to ignore it it just grows stronger, because I know what I'm doing is wrong. I can't live with myself doing the wrong thing.


I'm a bit similar, or was. During my late teenage years my morality wasn't really formed, but it's been forming a lot lately (20-23 ongoing). It's to the point where I feel bad for doing the majority of the stuff I could do at 17. That damn _niggle_, I swear...


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

@_emerald sea_, thank you for opening this discussion and for defending those who are suffering, your efforts are touching and admirable.

@_Boss_, thank you for your insight. First, I feel very sorry that you have had to experience all that and yet amazed at how well you seem to have been doing! 

Second, I wanted to tell that definitely not all Sixes react negatively to the thought of being a Six. 

My SO is a sp/so or so/sp 6w7 with a One fixation and it took him some time to know whether his core type is One or Six. He admitted at one point that he would rather see himself as a Six since he liked the way Sixes were described. He does not like making a scene or in any way seem negative to others, maybe that's the reason. He liked very much the part of 6w7 description of someone who gets along with people well and has a good sense of humor - and I find that only healthy, I do not know anyone who would have as good social skills as he does. No wonder people tend to like him... Not as someone superior, no, but as someone equal, the buddy label fits for him extremely well. What is interesting is that he has no troubles at all to admit his insecurity. He is a phobic one with some counter-phobic tendencies. He is only happy and proud of being able to notice the weak spots in advance, in his opinion it's only reasonable.

Another example of someone who will admit the need for security is my mum. I have not talked with her about Enneagram even nearly as much as with my SO though but she also is only happy for her talent to anticipate and especially question the motives of other people.

Third, I by myself admire very much the spirit Sixes have. That and their bravery is... very unique and exceptional. At times I have not recognized having a Six fixation by myself and it also took some time to recognize the extent of the anxiety I could feel at times.

Even when I do not think negatively about Sixes, I also do not like the suggestions of it being my core no matter how cool it would be a Six. The reason for this is not because I would not like being type Six _but because I just cannot see it as my core type, it feels wrong, not me_. I feel the same way about many other types (8s, 3s, 7s especially) too. It definitely hurts when I am not seen as who I am and I would definitely feel the same way also about many other issues than Enneagram types!


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@zallla
Please do not be sorry. I am very proud of my experiences, and how I have dealt with them. 


I am working on a response to this thread. Those who are suffering need redress. Those who are, truly, harassing typees need to be stopped. I have studied typing trends all the way back to December 2011, in depth, before the Questionnaire was created. And, a lot needs to be said about complaints legitimate, illegitimate and all in between as far as this "Witch Hunt" goes. That typers have been painted with a broad sweeping "witch hunter" label is not something I take lightly at all. 

Emerald has started a good thread. I am glad it has stirred discussion. 

As for your other comments, I didn't say anywhere that ALL sixes react negatively. Try not to read into my statements to such an extent that you change the intended message. Plenty of 6s on the forum accepted it as their type without slinging ad hominems at people. Plenty of 6s do the same irl. 

If you don't feel comfortable with people expressing opinions on your type, I would urge you to close your thread or just say that you are no longer open to discussing your type. Because as long as these threads are open, discussions will continue and you will continue to feel violated. Then, the typers are expected to take responsibility for individuals not setting a clear boundary and saying, " I am an X and I NO longer wish to discuss my type". This is unreasonable. 

You are more than what number you pick for your type. 

Suggestions contrary to your self-perception are merely suggestions offered by strangers. You can discard them. If this is difficult, and I understand why, just tell people you are have reached your decisions and are ending discussion to set your boundaries and to show respect to people who are taking time out to help you because you asked. Put a final end to it, so all parties involved know not to make suggestions since they're making you suffer. 

I am done with this discussion. I have addressed similar points on previous pages. If you have any comments, you're free to comment on the thread I will create, in the near future.
Good luck with your journey.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

@Boss, I agree with you, I only meant to bring the other side more clear.

Also, I did not refer to my thread particularly. In my own thread, there were moments when I felt I was being literally laughed and even scorned at. That was not because I was suggested type Six but because of how my own opinions were taken. It was rude and made me feel angry. It felt somewhat cruel and unnecessary but otherwise I have no negative thoughts about it and no need to close that thread - the problem is elsewhere and I will continue about that in the next chapter. I am still thankful for especially you to help me find my Six fix  That was admirable.

I also respect your efforts to try to do something for the way some are treated. The problem is that some write private messages which is pretty sneaky IMO. I got mine pretty soon after I came here in the first place. I have already taken care of this issue and it is not any kind of problem for me now but it used to cause me severe distress. The problem was not the messages, I was only interested to write about my types with others but eventually the process started to feel more evil than productive. I wish I had realized then that I would have had a choice to stop that.


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

People get away from the idea that 6 is people-centric in their anxiety and are looking for support based on the feelings of vulnerability and may go the way of making their own which is CP. 6 typing without this feeling of vulnerability and trust issue with people playing a key role in typing is obvious mistyping. You must prove you're a 6 on this matter.


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