# Ni vs Ne?



## InkMyUmbrella (May 23, 2017)

Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding may be well off.

Ni = Connecting present details with each other to determine some "hidden meaning". Ne = Abstract direct cause and effect.

I've noticed that Ni users notice two things occurring at the same time, and come to a conclusion to string the details together. An Ni user once told me that they could not tell if I was a boy or girl because I "did not have an avatar". So generally speaking, someone's avatar would allow the Ni user to interpret gender of the speaker.

Ne seems to care less about hidden meanings or interpretations. They see the concrete reality and think how this situation could affect something else. E.g. some XNFP saying "I refuse to buy this shirt because then the sweat shop owners will lose profit". 

So Ne tries to connect worldly occurrences together to see how everything is related, but not going as far as to form 'hidden meanings' or interpretations of the present (i.e., it remains extraverted/objective). Ni is just focused on details in present reality to determine the possible connections/hidden meanings.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

InkMyUmbrella said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding may be well off.
> 
> Ni = Connecting present details with each other to determine some "hidden meaning". Ne = Abstract direct cause and effect.
> 
> ...



I don't know what you mean by any of this. I generally pick out patterns other people overlook.

Extraverted Intuition vs Introverted Intuition


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## Persona Maiden (May 14, 2018)

InkMyUmbrella said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding may be well off.
> 
> Ni = Connecting present details with each other to determine some "hidden meaning". Ne = Abstract direct cause and effect.
> 
> ...


Ni I don't really know how to describe that one well, as I don't use it, but they tend to be more singular focused and symbolic.

Ne notices patterns in things, tends to be idea focused, shifts opinion more easily if new information changes it's opinion. Though less if Fi/Ti dom I think, since it's aux. I get very easily distracted with ideas, or my own thoughts and fantasies.

The bold sounds more like an F function, not sure which. Ne and Ni just perceive, judging is done by a judging function so that type of judgement would most likely come from F, but a T could even reach a conclusion like that too, but the motive would be different.


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## Kiriae (Oct 2, 2015)

Ne is more "sensory" bound than Ni. I always find Ni users difficult to understand when they start intuiting. It's all so magical and blurry.
My connections can be easily explained in physical terms. For example the time I suddenly "found out" there is a cat in clothes shop but it shouldn't be possible because noone would let a cat inside was based on a moment where a woman with a furry hat hide behind a clothes rack just like the cat on this video:




(0:17-0:18)

I was able to track it and realize where the connection came from.
Ne conclusions are Si based (even if totally mixed and random) - and Si stores actual, physical memories.

Ni conclusions are Ni based, Ni stores abstract memories, their interpretations.

Ne seeing an awatar will conclude: it could be an x fan because there is x on it, it could be a woman because there is a female, could be a man because in the video games many males played female characters, it could be a imaginary guy because the awatar is like the Salvador Dali pictures, the owner could love cats because there is a woolen ball on it and the cat in the cartoon liked playing with woolen balls... 

Ni user will conclude: the person is female because the avatar is feminine (without an actual connection but a blurry mix or famy, many, many indistinguishable connections making the general impression of feminine).

Ne-Si brain stores Si memories and connects Ne impressions from the current reality to specific stuff in the Si database.
Ni-Se stores Ni impressions and connects Se stuff in current reality to Ni impressions from the past.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

I tend to say that Ni generalizes ideas to come to a holistic understanding of the world while Ne branches out ideas to consider all the possible implications of the ideas. 

It can be more complicated than that in practice of course, since Ne+Ti is perfectly capable of generalizing. It just goes about it in a different way than Ni. In fact, it's almost impossible to provide specific examples where a person isn't using all of their functions. Human behaviour is so complex that we use multiple functions with everything we do. Your example with the XNFP that said "I refuse to buy this shirt because then the sweat shop owners will lose profit" shows more Fi than anything else, which makes it really hard to see what influence the Ne has exactly. 

Talk of "hidden meanings" makes Ni seem like something mystical while it's actually not like that at all. Trying to find out the most general way to view an issue (or a number of issues together) isn't trying to find a hidden meaning, it's just comparing ideas and trying to find the greatest common multiple. 
"Interpretations of the present" can also be a problem. Ne extrapolates from known information just like Ni generalizes experiences. Both have to get input from the outside world, they just get different types of information and use it in a different way.


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## VagrantFarce (Jul 31, 2015)

Ni is narrow and convergent - it's about time and fatalism and trajectory. It's far more serious and intense in character.

Ne is all about possibilities - it's more shallow and broad, and about discovering new ideas. It's far more silly and open in character.


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## MD_analyst (Jan 29, 2018)

It helps to compare Ne and Ni to the sensing functions and first get a good grasp on what Sensing and Intuition functions are generally all about. So here's a straightforward way I understand them:

_The Sensing and Intuition functions are about perceiving information, with the Extraverted functions perceiving novel info and the Introverted functions perceiving familiar info 
_
Sensing= prefers to process facts, experiences, and observable info; perceives the "what"
*Se* = discovering novel facts and experiences 
*Si *= elaborating on familiar facts and experiences 

Intuition= prefers to process ideas, interpretations, and theoretical info; perceives the "what could be" (in this context, ideas and interpretations can be about connections, seeing patterns, coming up with own interpretations, etc.)
*Ne* = discovering novel ideas and interpretations 
*Ni *= elaborating on familiar ideas and interpretations

So when comparing Ne and Ni, it really just boils down to seeking novelty in the ideas/abstract/theoretical (Ne) or expanding upon familiar ideas/abstract/theories (Ni).


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## Pastelle (Dec 12, 2016)

This is of my understanding, so don't quote me... unless you're going to quote me.

It's easier if you look at them as axes. Se/Ni, Ne/Si. Sensing is focused on the is, N perspective shifts.

Se is focused on the actual object, (I,e, a tree), Ni is focused on the subjective perspective shift tied to that object, (I,e, the tree is rebirth, life of the earth, etc, symbolism).

Si is focused on the object too, but it is the subjective experience that is focused on, impressed upon the person. I.e, Van Gogh, his paintings were about what "he saw", it's not about the experience itself, but those weird subjective pings that painted actually reality. Ne pulls one away from this and shifts the object, the "possibilities" of what the object can be aside from what you are perceiving, sometimes manifests as associations. Intuition is not about the future, but the in-time "could be's". Great post *here* for a better, more thorough explanation.


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## Fatal Destiny (Oct 4, 2018)

Ni: nfrjfnorenwoinrwoinworingoingo4fnron -----> 1

Ne: 1 ----> nfrjfnorenwoinrwoinworingoingo4fnron


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I always saw it as


Ni: What is behind this?

Ne: How do those things connect together?


Both need sensing as a point of reference though so I disagree with this concept that Ni just appears out of thin air.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Stevester said:


> I always saw it as
> 
> 
> Ni: What is behind this?
> ...


In fact, the two do the both.

The _extraverted intuition_ accepts coexistence of data to form a vast image, like a spider's web. Imagine the start by the center, then the whole thing. Particularly focused on discovering the hidden meaning, in an innovative way.


The _introverted intuition_ imagines future possibilities and synthesizes data to bring a new image. It's a tunnel vision. Because directly related to Se or Te, the need for action, and economy of effort.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

At least in Junglandia, it's *Introverted Thinking* which seeks above all to understand "what is behind this" and synthesizing data into a new image. And I think this makes a lot more sense to have a Thinking process primarily responsible for a deeper kind of understanding of something.

And the internal association thing would be a lot more in the line of *Introverted Intuition* rather than *Extraverted Intuition*, which is more focused on a vision for the outside.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Ocean Helm said:


> At least in Junglandia, it's *Introverted Thinking* which seeks above all to understand "what is behind this" and synthesizing data into a new image. And I think this makes a lot more sense to have a Thinking process primarily responsible for a deeper kind of understanding of something.
> 
> And the internal association thing would be a lot more in the line of *Introverted Intuition* rather than *Extraverted Intuition*, which is more focused on a vision for the outside.




That's true. ( in part in fact )

The _introverted thinking_ does not synthesize because synthesis is a creation, a new form, an idea in its own right. But yes, _introverted thinking_ is the one that seeks to understand a thing to establish logic, a coherency and organizes information. Intuition works in part on this basis, sometimes independently. Conversely, the thought verifies the viability of intuition. Especially in the case of Ti Dom. The thought has always the last word for ITPs.

If you have a written source that testifies the "introverted thinking synthesizes", I'm curious...


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

InkMyUmbrella said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding may be well off.
> 
> Ni = Connecting present details with each other to determine some "hidden meaning". Ne = Abstract direct cause and effect.
> 
> ...


Um, no... Not good descriptions of either, imo. I like your line of questioning kind of, in that you are trying to find examples of each. 

I'm not the best person to to explain Ni, since I'm not an Ni user, but I can talk for a paragraph to my INFJs or INTJs and they will usually boil down what I said into a 1 line concept. Ni users are very sensitive to Se and their minds will find the unifying concepts and it sometimes shows itself in symbolism. Maybe how you describe it is correct, except for high Ni users would likely be able to tie much more than 2 things together. I'll let the Ni users take it from there. 

If someone with Ne is a Fi user then they definitely care about hidden meanings in relationships with people. Fi-Ne is trained to listen to voice tone and nuances in word choice. Reading between the lines and intuition to instinctively understand people is bread and butter for xNFPs. 

Ne cares on it's own because it is looking for the broader implications. For ENTPs I see them caring about and finding the underlying "big picture" and concepts just like I do too. So for Ne, which is mainly a way to learn, then your mind creates possible connections between things constantly-- but not just 2 at a time. So your sentence about the shirt is interesting... I think it's lost some of it's meaning. Because how would buying this particular shirt make sweat shop owners lose profit or is it not buying it that will make sweat shop owners lose profit? Was the shirt from a sweat shop? They want to buy shirts that support local and small business instead? That would make sense. The way you have it written makes me unsure if the meaning in the connection got lost.

Something similar my INFP husband and I both said today "I want to buy this hand crafted rug locally from a lady who makes them on her loom because we want to support her and not get the less expensive ones from IKEA" However, this is like the most basic Ne... it hardly seems like Ne to me because it is a conclusion really, it's just showing 1 possible connection between buying this woman's rugs and helping support her business. Also Ne is not always about concrete things. It's often about imagination and concepts and possibilities.

Ne constantly forms possible connections-- basically imagination and it IS important to test the possible connections and then more spring out from that. 
So... for instance... I see this woman with the rugs today. I instantly see that they remind me of Scandinavian hand-woven rugs. My mind remembers when I saw a huge loom in Sweden and my Swedish grandmother used to make these. I immediately had many questions in my mind that I wanted to try out to see if I was correct or not. I went up to the woman selling them and said, "Would you call these Swedish?"
"I would call these Finnish," she said with a smile and a cute accent. "Because I am Finnish."
"My grandmother is Swedish and used to make rag rugs. These are just beautiful. Do you have your own loom?"
"I have 2 looms." She says. Because my mind is making the possible connections and testing them as I go and she would have to have a big loom I would think for these rugs, unless I'm wrong in which case I keep an open ear.

I asked if I could take a picture to send to my mother, but I am also curious to find out if they are true rag-rugs with the ideation in mind that they are re-purposed beloved old clothes or whatever material you have that has worn out and these were! Because she proceeded to tell me, "I made this one out of an old IKEA duve." Which was PERFECT! In fact, this woman might have had some Ne because it was exactly what I wanted to know and she beat me to my question. I had not wanted to seem rude, but I did want to know if she was using the concept of re-purposing old material and I was so pleased to find she was-- although my Ne wonders if she will run out of old rags if her business takes off. She then told me what all the other rugs and placemats were made out of-- all fabric she had used and loved. She told me people want blue stuff (and I have a blue kitchen), but she only has so many blue rags. I found out the prices and looked into the different kinds of weaving that she used on each piece, my Ne wondering and trying to figure out how each stitch was made. I think I figured out many of these stitches and weavings if I was going to do it myself. Beautiful...and maybe it wouldn't have mattered to anyone else, but since she sensed that I was "In the know" then I think any woman making those rugs in Scandinavia would have wanted to talk about what beloved too-worn item they were made from as part of showing them off. I went home and talked to my husband about the price and that I could also get cheap mass produced ones from IKEA, but he said we would love to support our local artists, surprising me and making me very happy. 

So that's very.... concrete? Seeking information from the real world by using questions or possible connections that form in your mind. 

Ne is not always about using material things. Often we can talk in concepts only. Often it also is like philosophy. It's about exploring the world through questions and concepts and finding the big picture and also seeing the applications of those concepts. I believe Ni is also about the big picture. Maybe that's what they have in common in the N is the abstract concept part of things. 

Ne feels like reaching out with 5-10 questions that spring from your mind when you see or think of just 1 thing. It's your tertiary function and I haven't often heard people with tertiary Ne talk about it. I sometimes see what I interpret as tert Ne in ESFJs and ESTJs... the difference that I see is in the number and stretch of the possibilities seen and in the "trying it out" and testing it part. There isn't that open ended thought of "Maybe these aren't Swedish rugs, although they remind me of them and I had better find out." Although, sometimes I've tested my possibilities many times over and I feel like I know the facts or the strength of my possible connection already "Would these possibly be Bolivian woven? But no, I know what those look like too" . and this is sometimes where there are communication problems with ESxJs. Sometimes ESTJs will try to combat some possibility I've said with another possibility they see and usually I've already thought about theirs and already gotten around it. Sometimes there's a lot of assumption with Si since an Si world is a bit more predictable. But ESTJs will kick butt all day and get by great with predictable patterns and ESFJs will do tons of tangible things for people. Me... I'm exploring the world of possibilities. I don't usually see ESFJs as appreciating my Ne since you are so much about the tangible world around you and often Ne is about the concept. Sometimes even when I am solving tangible problems I don't think ESFJs appreciate my Ne, though. 

But like if we wanted to talk about what was wrong with politics in America or the future of AI... that kind of thing also very much interests high Ne users. In fact, I'm mostly exploring that kind of bigger concept world most of the time.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

I am always focused on future actions. But I live mainly in the present. There is no project, to date, that I did not realize, sooner or later. When they multiply, I merge them to create a new, more interesting.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

G.13 said:


> That's true. ( in part in fact )
> 
> The _introverted thinking_ does not synthesize because synthesis is a creation, a new form, an idea in its own right. But yes, _introverted thinking_ is the one that seeks to understand a thing to establish logic, a coherency and organizes information. Intuition works in part on this basis, sometimes independently. Conversely, the thought verifies the viability of intuition. Especially in the case of Ti Dom. The thought has always the last word for ITPs.
> 
> If you have a written source that testifies the "introverted thinking synthesizes", I'm curious...


It's literally from Jung, who describes both Thinking types as "synthetic", while not saying the same for other types.

About Extraverted Thinking type:


> The thought of the extraverted thinking type is, positive, i.e. it produces. It either leads to new facts or to general conceptions of disparate experimental material. Its judgment is generally synthetic. Even when it analyses, it constructs, because it is always advancing beyond the, analysis to a new combination, a further conception which reunites the analysed material in a new way or adds some., thing further to the given material. In general, therefore, we may describe this kind of judgment as predicative.


About Introverted Thinking type:


> The thinking of the introverted type is positive and synthetic in the development of those ideas which in ever increasing measure approach the eternal validity of the primordial images.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Ocean Helm said:


> It's literally from Jung, who describes both Thinking types as "synthetic", while not saying the same for other types.
> 
> About Extraverted Thinking type:
> 
> ...


He speaks about synthetic *judgment * and synthetic *development* of *ideas*... Conscious phenomena. It's the organization of informations or ideas in extern or intern. No "eurêka" here... This is not what I call the _*data *synthesis_: the idea.

It's another century, other words. We must pay attention to the current meaning.

And for intuition?


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@G.13 well in previous discussions you seem to use "synthesis" to mean the construction of an idea. But yeah, intuition can be said to "synthesize" the building pieces, however it's judgment that actually puts these building pieces together and turns them into these "ideas". If you were only using introverted intuition, you'd basically just be brainstorming fragments and seeing patterns and not producing much of anything.

Jung on the Introverted Intuitive type:


> The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so *the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility* in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an aesthenic problem, a question of perception, a 'sensation'. In this way, *the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive's view, as does its effect upon others*. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: *'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless phantasies'*. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since *these images represent possible ways of viewing life*, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people.


What you have described in the past as "INTP" is basically Jung's *Introverted Intuitive* type.


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## G.13 (Feb 12, 2018)

Ocean Helm said:


> @G.13 well in previous discussions you seem to use "synthesis" to mean the construction of an idea. But yeah, intuition can be said to "synthesize" the building pieces, however it's judgment that actually puts these building pieces together and turns them into these "ideas". If you were only using introverted intuition, you'd basically just be brainstorming fragments and seeing patterns and not producing much of anything.


My introverted thinking is my judgment of this _brainstorming_ Because I consider that my logic must have the last word. Not the case for INTJ. Dominant _Introverted Intuition_. The auxilary _extraverted thinking_ is just here to developp this idea.


"_so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the *unconscious*, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. _" Jung

Yet you said that you are perfectly aware of your inner workings ...


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

G.13 said:


> My introverted thinking is my judgment of this _brainstorming_ Because I consider that my logic must have the last word. Not the case for INTJ. Dominant _Introverted Intuition_. The auxilary _extraverted thinking_ is just here to developp this idea.
> 
> 
> "_so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the *unconscious*, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. _" Jung
> ...


Why does everything get back to you trying to type me as if this is some sort of competition? Can we have any discussion without discussing what "type" you or I am? I also never said that, but I do think I have a high awareness, as I often feel like a third person looking in on my own thoughts. But... let's not talk about me, okay?

What Jung is describing there is what we would call "derealization". The images have their root in the unconscious but the introverted intuitive concerns themselves more with those images than any other type, to the point where they disconnect from the "real world".

And the Ti-Se-Ni-Fe model is incompatible with Jung and I wasn't talking about that.


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