# Talleyrand - Napoleon's Master



## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

*I'm trying to establish Talleyrand's ennea type, regarding his mbti, majority sees him as an ENTP - but I heard not one suggestion of his enneagram. *

Some of his traits:
-Faith in his beliefs/views and greater disregard for others opinion to an extent when it was only necessary to twist his beliefs. 
-Lust for women throughout life, even being open about his affairs when held the title of Bishop of Autun. When he was a young adult he led a very social and indulgent life. 
-Was always an enforcer of good manners; in politics form beginning to the end he was a libertine, believing in the freedom of press.
-Very quick witted, loyal and loving towards close friends.

"Speech was given to man to disguise his thoughts."

"The reputation of a man is like his shadow, gigantic when it precedes him, and pigmy in its proportions when it follows."

"Show me another pleasure like dinner which comes every day and lasts an hour."


*7w8 ties in very well with ENTP, with his witty, optimistic and pragmatic persona. I'd be Über grateful for any suggestions from you.*:crazy:


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Some of what you wrote doesn't make sense.



PhantomCitadel said:


> -Was always an enforcer of good manners; in politics form beginning to the end he was a libertine, believing in the freedom of press.


Did you mean "liberal" or something along those lines? Libertine doesn't really make sense.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

I meant a libertine, but I shouldn't associate it with his political views.. xD


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

PhantomCitadel said:


> I meant a libertine, but I shouldn't associate it with his political views.. xD


He could be a 3... otherwise, not enough to go on.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

I thought that at the beginning, but his upbringing threw me off big time. 
After he was rendered with a lame leg at the age of 4, his aristocratic parents decided to educate him to become a priest, which he much disliked during his training and focused on dreaming about life at the King's court - compared to the dulness of priesthood; reading about exciting lives of statesmen in the clerical libraries, and really sneering at the church's hypocrisy. Talleyrand expressed his dislikes very openly; his uncle failed to persuade him with all the glory and ceremonial duties that went with the high offices of the clergy that just seemed boring and lifeless to him.

This still echoes either 7 or 3 to me. I might be confused by associating type 3 with a more tactful behaviour, and he really sounds like a rebel, especially towards his family and authority in general, even later in his life.

One more thing that threw me off the type 3 scent: "Love of glory can only create a great hero; contempt of glory creates a great man."

And on the other hand Duff Cooper writes about him: "Talleyrand was famous throughout his life for complete self-control and composure in all circumstances; he could be kicked a dozen times from behind without his face betraying the fact to those in front of him."


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

That's really very little to go on as far as typing. But I suggested 3, because I think 3 is the typical type of politicians (and maybe courtiers). Here's how I type recent US presidents:

Obama - 3
G. W. Bush - 9
Clinton - 3
G. H. W. Bush - 6
Reagan - 3?
Carter - ?
Ford - 9?


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## newbie const (Nov 26, 2015)

nburns said:


> That's really very little to go on as far as typing. But I suggested 3, because I think 3 is the typical type of politicians (and maybe courtiers). Here's how I type recent US presidents:
> 
> Obama - 3
> G. W. Bush - 9
> ...


George W.Bush doesn't seem 9 to me at all.I think either CP 6w7 or 7w8 is a better fit for him.

Though I agree that type 3 is suited and common among politicians.3,6,9 and 8s are the most common.


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## newbie const (Nov 26, 2015)

@PhantomCitadel
I think his type is 7w8>3w2>8w7/9w8 Sx/So.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

Besides the apparent I can see w2 referring to his caring character and type 9 to his favour of peace and unions - throughout political decisions.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Admittedly, I haven't yet read Talleyrand's biography in any depth (it's on my list, though), but I know enough about him to suggest the following.

- ENTP, we all know why.

- Either 3, 7, or even some sort of 6, though that's the least likely. I was actually having trouble determining which type, so I'm interested in this discussion. 
Seven, of course, is the obvious answer based on some of the things you've mentioned at the top and his overall witty persona. But keep in mind ENTPs are like that, too, and a lot of what he did and believed are simply the cultural leanings of that era. Three makes sense, too, but I'm not quite seeing how that operates for him beyond "persona". In short, I'm having trouble seeing what really made the guy tick, but mostly agree with your suggestions on this so far.

- He was probably 9-fixed, maybe 379 tritype. I could still see an argument for another head-fix if he doesn't prove to be a core 7.

- Probably Social-first. I thought soc/sp, but could equally see soc/sx.

That's where I currently stand on this matter. I'll necro this thread if I ever come to a definitive conclusion.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

PhantomCitadel said:


> Besides the apparent I can see w2 referring to his caring character and type 9 to his favour of peace and unions - throughout political decisions.


You can't really judge type that way. G. W. Bush was a 9 and he started wars. Obama is a 3 and he favors peace.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

Would his frequent tendency to strive for peaceful outcomes both in the political and private realms not indicate 9, even in core or fix?

He liked to get cozy and safe at home whenever awaiting the success of many coups d'état that he set in motion.
I'm certain this will develop and become clearer when I finish reading his biography, and there isn't much on the web about him - for type judging.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

PhantomCitadel said:


> Would his frequent tendency to strive for peaceful outcomes both in the political and private realms not indicate 9, even in core or fix?


Some 9s are like this, with a concern for the well-being of mankind. But many aren't exactly all peace and love...there's a 9 in my family, for instance, who loves things related to war and could give two shits about political peace. (And likewise, there are many 8s who strive for peace and stability if they see it is in their own/everyone else's best interest.)

The peace 9s strive for is more about Not Getting Upset. They don't want to be stirred up or moved. Lack of conflict in the mind. No stress, no need to be angry.

So I'd look for those qualities in a 9-fixer--and what they typically suggest for them is being out of touch with anger. Why I suggested it for Talleyrand was mainly because (I have no idea what kind of temper the guy had, but) he _seems_ never to have lost his cool. He had a million and one strategies for managing people and affairs, but anger, force, The Right Way, and/or criticism were never among them. Not so much his striving for European peace and stability, which even the more warlike Bismarck ultimately did.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Leaders are supposed to make decisions based on the welfare of the country, not to suit the whims of their personalities. I mean, nobody's perfect, but you expect leaders to be able to ignore their subconscious impulses and use their brains...


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

*I've dug up more info about him, if it proves any further point.*

He repeatedly shifted political allegiance without visible compunction and possessed no political principle on which he would stand firm to the last; and he was also at least technically guilty of treason, engaging in secret negotiations with the public enemies of his country while in its service.

Yet closer scrutiny of what Talleyrand did shows an apparent steady purpose beneath the crust of arrogant contempt for the ordinary standards of mankind's judgment, expressed in the comment attributed to him on the kidnaping and execution of the Duc d'Enghien at Napoleon's command: "It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake." Talleyrand had his own vision of the interests of France, which lay in making the transition from the Old Regime to the new as painless as possible, at the same time preserving the territorial interests of the French nation. His fidelity to whichever persons happened to be at the head of the French state lasted at best only as long as their power, but this matchless cynic seems to have possessed genuine devotion for France as a country, and his apparent treasons can be seen as the products of a higher loyalty. Yet this picture of him may be false, for Talleyrand destroyed many of the records by which the truth regarding his career could have been more closely reached.



-Stendhal wrote about him: "Never was a face less of a barometer"

-Talleyrand was a master at taking people into his confidence by revealing some apparent secret. This feigned confidence - a- decoy would then elicit a real confidence on the other person's part.

-Talleyrand had a morbid dread of falling out of bed in his sleep. To prevent this, he had his mattresses made with a depression in the centre. As a further safety measure, he wore fourteen cotton nightcaps at once, held together by 'a sort of tiara'.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Well, it sounds like he had a chameleon-like ability to always become the person he needed to be, plus a canny charm; these sound like 3.

Any decision that he made by carefully weighing the consequences, you can discard as evidence of personality, because those decisions were products of logic, not personality.

However, information on how he related to people on a personal level, the impressions of people he interacted with, etc.; those things are useful. I get the impression that he was always "on" and he was always working to leverage relationships and gain advantage... that points to 3.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

nburns said:


> However, information on how he related to people on a personal level, the impressions of people he interacted with, etc.; those things are useful. I get the impression that he was always "on" and he was always working to leverage relationships and gain advantage... that points to 3.


Good that you've pointed me in that direction then! 

-Germaine de Staël's novel Delphine allegedly depicted Talleyrand as an old woman, and herself as the heroine. Upon meeting Madame de Staël, Talleyrand remarked, "They tell me that we are both of us in your novel, in the disguise of women."

-In 1797 a rumor spread that the King of Great Britain had died. A banker, hoping to make a profit from inside information, appeared at Talleyrand's door seeking information. Talleyrand replied along the lines of, "But of course. I shall be delighted, if the information I have to give be of any use to you." The banker listened with bated breath as Talleyrand continued: "Some say the King of England is dead; others, that he is not dead: for my own part, I believe neither the one nor the other. I tell you this in confidence, but I rely on your discretion."


>"Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice Doggie!" till you can find a bigger stick."

>"Politeness costs so little and can buy so much."

>"Beauty, devoid of grace, is a mere hook without the bait"


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

PhantomCitadel said:


> Good that you've pointed me in that direction then!
> 
> -During the occupation of Paris by the Allies, Prussian General Blücher wanted to destroy the Pont d'Iéna, which was named after a French victorious battle against Prussia. The Prefect of Paris tried everything to change the mind of Blücher, without success, and finally went to Talleyrand asking him whether he could write a letter to the General asking him not to destroy the bridge. Talleyrand instead wrote to Tsar Alexander, who was in person in Paris, asking him to grant to the people of Paris the favour of inaugurating himself the bridge under a new name (Pont de l'École militaire). The Tsar accepted, and Blücher could not then destroy a bridge inaugurated by an Ally. The name of the bridge was reverted to its original name under Louis-Philippe.
> 
> ...


^^ I'm always suspicious that quotes like that are apocryphal, because who was there to witness that? It sounds like the kind of pat little story that somebody would make up.

Anyway... none of that stuff says much about his type, IMO. You've got to catch him in some sort of a candid moment.


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## PhantomCitadel (Jan 14, 2016)

Yeah, candid moments and Talleyrand don't seem to be very common so far, still scanning though.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

PhantomCitadel said:


> Yeah, candid moments and Talleyrand don't seem to be very common so far, still scanning though.


I would just make 3 my working hypothesis and let it rest for a while... if something jumps out at you that doesn't fit, then adjust the hypothesis...

3 is a safe bet for any politician or statesman, IMO.


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