# Information Elements and Complaining



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

I was just wondering what each of the different IEs might feel compelled to complain about.

:s:
I'm tired.
I'm hungry.
My feet hurt.
I need to sit down.
I have a headache.
It's cold.

:i:
I'm bored.
I don't want to do that.
That's boring.
There's nothing to do around here.
That doesn't interest me.

:t:
Wow they are really taking their time...
That's a waste of time.
There's no way this can end well.
God this is taking forever.
Stop taking everything so literally!

:
You don't know what you're talking about.
This is really ineffective.
That's false.
That's unreliable.
That's not worth the effort.
This could really be improved.

:L:
You're being inconsistent.
You are contradicting yourself.

:r:
Whatever.
I don't care.
I hate that.
That disgusts me.
This is so unrelatable.

:f:
That's hideous.
You are completely useless.
That's not needed.
Get ahold of yourself! ("man up")

:e:
I'm totally at a loss for what Fe would complain about.


I have to tell you I absolutely hated writing this post. Certain complaints drive me up the damn wall.

But I see lots of complaints that I identify with and make regularly.

What about you?

What do you think each IE might complain about? What do you most often complain about?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

I usually complain about people being bad people, selfish people, deceptive people, etc.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

I usually complain about evil people, stupid people, various tirades about unfairness, situation in the world and, believe it or not, a waste of time. I complain a lot. Ugly reality of ESI, yo!


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Of those... I relate mostly to the N complaints; things being 'boring' or a waste of time, they kind of go hand-in-hand to me.

Not so much to the :r: complaints, interestingly, I probably wouldn't be so worried about sharing those things but I might think it; suppressed :e: leading to not wanting to share emotion, maybe, regardless of its origin.

Something I do find myself complaining about is people who are insincere, shallow, or selfish, I wonder where they would fit? I also complain about people who are too aggressive or confrontational, especially when there's no reason to be, so I think PoLR comes in to play here as well.

What about :L: complaints?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Ti = well that doesn't make any sense. Well if this is this, and this is this, then why THIS? Well you don't want to (insert self-interested logical projection)?! Well (basically this just doesn't suit me).


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

lol at those Ni ones. Nothing moves fast enough for me. I have said before I don't know if I could live in the American South or West. They are more laid back and move at a slower pace. I cannot deal with that carefree, lackadaisical attitude. Shut your mouth, and get out my way. My fucking God. I move with purpose. 

A similar one. I never actually say these things, but in my head:

"You should have done this before I got here." Nobody thinks ahead. They are wasting my time. They move incrementally. I see the totality of the situation and know everything I have to do to shop and be respectful to other people. Just like a small thing. Like at the grocery store, why is it so hard to swipe your card in the 5 minutes you're being checked out? They are standing there, mouth breathing, taking up my time, literally doing nothing. Then when 100 items are totalled, she pulls out her purse. I try to make people's lives as easy as possible. I try to get out of their way. I know they have other things to do. I am mostly annoyed because people only think about themselves, and in doing so, burden others. 


Like if I go to a bar or something. I'll order simple drinks, keep my mouth shut, etc. Like if I go out with an ESFP buddy, he's just fussy and takes up too much time. He'll walk a bartender through how to make a drink. He is nice and everything, but still, he is burdening them. First of all, there isn't anything I drink that is obscure enough to cause confusion, but if there was, and the bartender or waiter really is uncertain, I'll just say forget about it, and quickly pick an alternative. I really don't like it when others burden others unnecessarily. Or try to control them, even implicitly. I am very sensitive to that.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

My complaints:

:L:
"Not necessarily"
"It doesn't work like that"
"This doesn't make sense"

:s:
"I'm tired"
"I feel sick"
"I don't want to do this"
"There's going to be too much work to do at once"
"I don't have the energy for this"


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

ALongTime said:


> What about :L: complaints?


Completely forgot about Ti. Derp.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> "You should have done this before I got here." Nobody thinks ahead. They are wasting my time. They move incrementally. I see the totality of the situation and know everything I have to do to shop and be respectful to other people. Just like a small thing. Like at the grocery store, why is it so hard to swipe your card in the 5 minutes you're being checked out? They are standing there, mouth breathing, taking up my time, literally doing nothing. Then when 100 items are totalled, she pulls out her purse. I try to make people's lives as easy as possible. I try to get out of their way. I know they have other things to do. I am mostly annoyed because people only think about themselves, and in doing so, burden others.
> 
> 
> Like if I go to a bar or something. I'll order simple drinks, keep my mouth shut, etc. Like if I go out with an ESFP buddy, he's just fussy and takes up too much time. He'll walk a bartender through how to make a drink. He is nice and everything, but still, he is burdening them. First of all, there isn't anything I drink that is obscure enough to cause confusion, but if there was, and the bartender or waiter really is uncertain, I'll just say forget about it, and quickly pick an alternative. I really don't like it when others burden others unnecessarily. Or try to control them, even implicitly. I am very sensitive to that.


I don't think I've ever agreed more with you than I do right now. I agree with this 2934789283749273%.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

Holy shit those Ni ones.

Fucking nailed it.

And @_FearAndTrembling_ gave the perfect exposition.

Yes, that is exactly how it feels. Goddamn.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Si + Ne would be my complaints, mainly. But, it's more: "That's boring, I don't wanna." And, "That's no fun." 

I don't really complain about having nothing to do, because I can _always _think of something to do that's fun. Unless I'm being forced to do something I don't wanna do... :kitteh:

_Then _it's, "Uugghh.. I don't wannaaaaa.. T_T..."

I don't do all of the Si ones, either, but I may say, "No, I won't do that. It's uncomfortable." Or, "It's so warm." Or "I don't feel so good."


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

emberfly said:


> I don't think I've ever agreed more with you than I do right now. I agree with this 2934789283749273%.



I like coming up with analogies. The Wall from Pink Floyd is Ni. The hardened ego shell of resistance. Insurmountable. The song, "Mother" says it all. "Mother did it need to be so high?" That is Ni. What is higher than Ni? It is scaling a wall. It is a long way down when you fall. And I do think Ni is a bird's eye view. It zooms out. It looks down from the top of the mountain, scared. Whereas Ti totally zooms in. Like my INTP buddy has never met a piece of information or system that he must not dissect. Like if you hand him a bill, he fuckin looks at the thing top to bottom. Everything must be in place, and if it isn't, he must understand why. He is a teacher now, and all of his students hate him. He doesn't even know why. His vision is like a microscope. So to ask what Ti complains about, everything basically. Ti is like the straight line function. There are no straight lines in nature. So Ti is a critic. Like Einstein wanted didn't want to believe in the Big Bang or Quantum Mechanics, because they were messy. No straight lines. 

You can see this in very intelligent INTP, like Arkigos. His ideas are straight lines. The ideas he comes up with are original and enchanting, because they are so proportional and fleshed out. I think he even said that he loves the beauty of theory. This is an old notion. 

I was also just thinking that Ni is like being a ghost. The movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze is what I am thinking about. He dies, and he observes, but cannot affect the world at all. He can feel and think though. He finally meets a spirit who can touch the Earthly realm. And it takes so much effort. He has to put his entire being into pushing a penny an inch or something. It is impossible. The Wall. I like how Swayze asks to the ghost, "How long have you been here?" He answers, "Since they pushed me. I am not supposed to be here." Being born is the same as dying. You are pushed into this world.


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

emberfly said:


> I don't think I've ever agreed more with you than I do right now. I agree with this 2934789283749273%.


I also relate to this sort of mindset typically, albeit less vehemently so, but lessening the burden of others is usually not the priority. It's just a general efficiency mindset.

Brief remarks on each one for Ni:

_''Wow they are really taking their time...''_

That's something I notice but it doesn't really frustrate me usually unless I'm in a particular hurry; I might not necessarily get annoyed, might just be an observation. It reminds me that I was in a restaurant not long ago and I thought something along the lines of ''why is it taking so long to serve, there's almost no one and we didn't order much'', so what is the excuse?''. 

_''That's a waste of time.''_

I use this sentence a lot. Whenever I assess something as useless/inefficient or overshadowed by a better alternative, I automatically say/think this type of thing as a way to dismiss it.

_''There's no way this can end well.''_

I think this sometimes and also may tell other people, although that is rarer. Usually I keep it for myself if I foresee something has no ''hope'' and I can't prove it in a very obvious way to them.

What's interesting is that sometimes I will have this thought for myself but still not change course, as if I'm compelled to see it through. Or perhaps defying fate.

It feels bittersweet.

_''God this is taking forever.''_
Yea, I can sometimes say that while trying to reason why it's taking so long (what the ''problem'' might be). 

_''Stop taking everything so literally!''_
I've muttered this type of thing a few times to people; it is particularly frustrating when someone gets hung up on a word or expression I said when it is simply an example to illustrate something more. It basically comes down to ''missing the point'' because of a unwillingness to see what could have been meant.

Something else I've also realized, that seems Ni-related, is I tend to always a general idea of how long it will take to do X (even long term things). It comes to me effortlessly.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

"There's no point to it."
"I wish people would fucking think."
"Is common sense really that difficult?"
"They are taking advantage of me via leverage."


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Fe - "Whateva! I be who I wanna be! Eh!" Well I don't want to do that. Annoyed by any interpersonal connection that isn't face-value emotions.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Abraxas said:


> Holy shit those Ni ones.
> 
> Fucking nailed it.
> 
> ...


I think CS Lewis is a Ni dom. He totally undressed me in the The Screwtape Letters. He knew every weakness I had, and even those I didn't. I wake up everyday and believe every second of that day belongs to me. It is my property. By taking up my time, you are inflicting injury on me. I own every part of time in any space I am in. lol. That is what Ni complaints are alluding to. 

*"They anger him because he regards his time as his own and feels that it is being stolen. You must therefore zealously guard in his mind the curious assumption "My time is my own". Let him have the feeling that he starts each day as the lawful possessor of twenty-four hours. Let him feel as a grievous tax that portion of this property which he has to make over to his employers, and as a generous donation that further portion which he allows to religious duties. But what he must never be permitted to doubt is that the total from which these deductions have been made was, in some mysterious sense, his own personal birthright.*
*
You have here a delicate task. The assumption which you want him to go on making is so absurd that, if once it is questioned, even we cannot find a shred of argument in its defence. The man can neither make, nor retain, one moment of time; it all comes to him by pure gift; he might as well regard the sun and moon his chattels."*


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

@emberfly I checked the whole list, and those two nailed my main complains and rants. The this is taking forever is one of my issues when computer programs take a while to calculate anything. About the Te ones, the last remark sums up my comments when I think that something is a waste of time and I'm also too lazy for bothering with pointless crap. The Fi ones also make sense but they're not that evident as the Ni and Te complaints, same for Se and the ugly thing part, that's also damn true. The man up part happens too when people are being whiny.

:t:
Wow they are really taking their time... --> damn true when people can't pick anything, my mom annoys me with this
That's a waste of time. --> all the time XD
There's no way this can end well. --> true
God this is taking forever. --> damned molecular dynamics simulations
Stop taking everything so literally! ---> specially when someone doesn't get that my idea isn't to be taken at face value

:
You don't know what you're talking about. --> hahaha this is true 
This is really ineffective. --> legit
That's false. --> specially when people use shitty sources
That's unreliable. --> lol this is also one of my complains
That's not worth the effort. ---> specially as I'm lazy XD
This could really be improved. ---> true too


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

I see Te being more about wasting time. Though "time" is Ni, time is also a resource. ESTJ managers at work scrutinize work efficiency and often complain about people wasting time (resource).


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I see Te being more about wasting time. Though "time" is Ni, time is also a resource. ESTJ managers at work scrutinize work efficiency and often complain about people wasting time (resource).


This isn't really in line with what Socionics says.

From the LSE:


> Ever proactive, they may commit themselves to too many obligations and responsibilities. *They often feel as though there is not enough time to get everything done on their itinerary, but they may simultaneously have difficulty prioritizing their tasks, as they are all perceived as important*. As a consequence, they may leave work unfinished.
> 
> LSEs internal mental worlds are often neglected. They are generally disinclined towards personal and existential reflection. They are focused on what is in front of them and might regard extensive philosophizing as confusing and secondary to their experience. They tend to be perpetually in motion, and may feel restless, dejected, and unproductive if forced to suspend their activities.


They are out of touch with which prospects will lead to the most useful or beneficial results, thus leading them to have difficulties with time management and prioritization.

In layman's terms, they have difficulty determining when things are "a waste of time."

A Te dominant type.


LSEs are your classmates who join every club available and then later feel bad when they have to drop half of them because they just simply can't do it all.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

This reminds me how I argue about everything that poses an issue(or challenge) to me. It's always the same song(I'll quote my math tirades):

"Why in the nine hells would anyone ever need additive theorems? // _I HATE em so much!_ // <- sometimes I don't say that"
"But...how'll you pass a grade without them?"
"Whatever! I don't care about those fucking nerd things. I hate them!"


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

tangosthenes said:


> "There's no point to it."
> "I wish people would fucking think."
> "Is common sense really that difficult?"
> "They are taking advantage of me via leverage."


Funny enough, I relate to those two as well. But that's byproduct of my upbringing and IQ.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> This reminds me how I argue about everything that poses an issue(or challenge) to me. It's always the same song(I'll quote my math tirades):
> 
> "Why in the nine hells would anyone ever need additive theorems? // _I HATE em so much!_ // <- sometimes I don't say that"
> "But...how'll you pass a grade without them?"
> "Whatever! I don't care about those fucking nerd things. I hate them!"


Calculus would be your worst nightmare then, specially doing proofs and other stuff like that. I thought something like your rant when I learnt hermitian operators, I didn't understand the proof so I ignored it despite being tested later lol still passed quantum mechanics.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> Calculus would be your worst nightmare then, specially doing proofs and other stuff like that. I thought something like your rant when I learnt hermitian operators, I didn't understand the proof so I ignored it despite being tested later lol still passed quantum mechanics.


Oh my god. Calculus. Eh...head hurts just thinking of it!

Funnily enough, I always wanted to understand it(is it some Te seeking?). But it's impossible for me. No matter how hard I try, there is always a barrier of some sorts there.

...whatever. Nevermind. I GIVE UP!


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Oh my god. Calculus. Eh...head hurts just thinking of it!
> 
> Funnily enough, I always wanted to understand it(is it some Te seeking?). But it's impossible for me. No matter how hard I try, there is always a barrier of some sorts there.
> 
> ...whatever. Nevermind. I GIVE UP!


That effort could be useful if calculus is a tool that you need, otherwise why bother with it. I've only learnt it for dealing with physical chemistry, but at the end I won't do those calculations without a computer, so it helps me to grasp some concepts but besides that I won't really apply it that much.

Math seems to be a good example of a Ti system causing headaches to Te valuers.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> That effort could be useful if calculus is a tool that you need, otherwise why bother with it. I've only learnt it for dealing with physical chemistry, but at the end I won't do those calculations without a computer, so it helps me to grasp some concepts but besides that I won't really apply it that much.
> 
> Math seems to be a good example of a Ti system causing headaches to Te valuers.


Yeah, it really is not practical, is it?

And they always did cause headaches! Poor Ti heh!


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Yeah, it really is not practical, is it?
> 
> And they always did cause headaches! Poor Ti heh!


Yep, specially when people waste their time using overly complicated equations when they can apply basic ones and for that reason I skip proofs and steps during tests, as I already know what result I should get. I only bother to grasp stuff in depth if that can be applied, otherwise I prefer to use my time doing something useful. That can seem lazy to Ti valuers, but really it's not my problem if they have fun taking the long road and creating systems from scratch lol I prefer to refine systems that are already built.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Funny enough, I relate to those two as well. But that's byproduct of my upbringing and IQ.


Every type has its version of what thinking and common sense are.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Oh my god. Calculus. Eh...head hurts just thinking of it!
> 
> Funnily enough, I always wanted to understand it(is it some Te seeking?). But it's impossible for me. No matter how hard I try, there is always a barrier of some sorts there.
> 
> ...whatever. Nevermind. I GIVE UP!


I always wished I were better at it so I didn't have to try as hard to make good grades in it.

But I have no interest in understanding it. It seems wholly useless outside school.

It's definitely Ti, calculus. And really math of any kind.



tangosthenes said:


> Every type has its version of what thinking and common sense are.


Absolutely.

I was actually thinking about this the other day when I was at my dentist. I thought of him as so incredibly smart because he was giving me advice on what to do with this tooth in my mouth... something along the lines of "If you were my kid, I'd make you get it removed. You really don't want to deal with an impacted molar like that when you're older. Your body will be way worse at healing itself at that point and it will just make it 10 times harder. You should get it out now while you're still young and have free time . . . "


Just completely on my same wave length. Telling me exactly what I needed to hear. No sugar coating. Very direct Te/Ni.


I think we do that with people. We size them up to see if they think the same way as we do. And if they do, we automatically think they're "smart". 


"Smart" is when someone is good at perceiving information that we value. It's totally subjective, isn't it?

It's totally conceited.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

emberfly said:


> This isn't really in line with what Socionics says.
> 
> From the LSE:
> 
> ...


Not with recreational time, with time the resource. E.g., We have two days to do this, it isn't done and you did this instead, you wasted time. Perhaps it is better related to laziness and money that the time represents?


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

emberfly said:


> I always wished I were better at it so I didn't have to try as hard to make good grades in it.
> 
> But I have no interest in understanding it. It seems wholly useless outside school.
> 
> ...


No, not necessarily, just in this situation. Often, true proficiency is obvious to anyone who looks. I may be bad at a certain skill set, but I can still tell when that skill set is used proficiently by another person. I can also tell when one of the skills I'm good at is not being used to the same standard. If a person never uses any skill set well enough, you could say that they aren't very smart.

I would make an exception for the weaker functions to varying degrees, with ability to measure aptitude or even categorize a behavior correctly weakest in 1D functions


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

tangosthenes said:


> No, not necessarily, just in this situation. Often, true proficiency is obvious to anyone who looks. I may be bad at a certain skill set, but I can still tell when that skill set is used proficiently by another person. I can also tell when one of the skills I'm good at is not being used to the same standard. If a person never uses any skill set well enough, you could say that they aren't very smart.
> 
> I would make an exception for the weaker functions to varying degrees, with ability to measure aptitude or even categorize a behavior correctly weakest in 1D functions


I usually say "this person knows a lot and is a good worker." Usually all it takes for my 1d valued Te.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

tangosthenes said:


> No, not necessarily, just in this situation. Often, true proficiency is obvious to anyone who looks. I may be bad at a certain skill set, but I can still tell when that skill set is used proficiently by another person. I can also tell when one of the skills I'm good at is not being used to the same standard. If a person never uses any skill set well enough, you could say that they aren't very smart.
> 
> I would make an exception for the weaker functions to varying degrees, with ability to measure aptitude or even categorize a behavior correctly weakest in 1D functions


I don't think that smart = proficiency. Not in common usage, anyway. Perhaps if you looked in the dictionary, you would find something about being proficient.

But I think when others appeal to us and we view them as "smart", they more often than not share our same valued information elements.


For example, tons and tons of people who are not me are really great at creating pleasant social interaction. I would gladly refer to them as "people smart." But I would heavily hesitate to label them as "smart", because "smart" to me is when someone is good at something I value. 

And I think it's the same for everyone else--not just me being weird with personal definitions.


I might also say that someone is really "book smart." (omg: see my brother) But I would hesitate to call _them _"smart", too, because I don't value book smartness at all. It doesn't interest me. It isn't applicable to the real world. To me, book smartness isn't "smart."


You know what I mean?



Jeremy8419 said:


> Not with recreational time, with time the resource. E.g., We have two days to do this, it isn't done and you did this instead, you wasted time. Perhaps it is better related to laziness and money that the time represents?


That could also be poor time management skills, too, if they're freaking out about something due in 2 days that can easily be done the hour before it's due.

It's not laziness-averse, no, it's poor time management skills that motivates them to do things ahead of time.

Could, though, also be stress-aversion. If you have poor time management skills, I can absolutely understand why a deadline would cause you excessive stress that would spur you to quench it.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

emberfly said:


> I don't think that smart = proficiency. Not in common usage, anyway. Perhaps if you looked in the dictionary, you would find something about being proficient.
> 
> But I think when others appeal to us and we view them as "smart", they more often than not share our same valued information elements.
> 
> ...


Yeah but if you can suspend disbelief and let yourself see what they are doing as a worthwhile skill in its own right, their proficiency is what is most at display.

I think it's a bit limiting to only consider what you naturally find smart. There is a feeling you can get about other people, even if you don't value their contributions, you can know that they're being "smart",clever,detailed,etc. or whatever thing that can be generalized as "proficient." Not everybody is "ascendantly" smart in their subject either.

And yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not really in tune with what's considered the common usage of the word. There are several sorts, anyway, you could mean intelligence, you could mean impressiveness, skill gained from experience, etc.

Kind of a big subject, really. Interesting though.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

tangosthenes said:


> Yeah but if you can suspend disbelief and let yourself see what they are doing as a worthwhile skill in its own right, their proficiency is what is most at display.


Yes.



> I think it's a bit limiting to only consider what you naturally find smart. There is a feeling you can get about other people, even if you don't value their contributions, you can know that they're being "smart",clever,detailed,etc. or whatever thing that can be generalized as "proficient."


I'm not sure.



> And yeah, I'm sorry, I'm not really in tune with what's considered the common usage of the word. There are several sorts, anyway, you could mean intelligence, you could mean impressiveness, skill gained from experience, etc.


Oh, and the best one of all, in my opinion, is when you're watching a British show and they throw the word "smart" around willy nilly and you're wondering what they're talking about because it's clear they aren't talking about anyone's intelligence.

And then you Google it and find out that "smart" in .co.uk land means "well-dressed."




I feel like that's kind of insulting.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> Yep, specially when people waste their time using overly complicated equations when they can apply basic ones and for that reason I skip proofs and steps during tests, as I already know what result I should get. I only bother to grasp stuff in depth if that can be applied, otherwise I prefer to use my time doing something useful. That can seem lazy to Ti valuers, but really it's not my problem if they have fun taking the long road and creating systems from scratch lol I prefer to refine systems that are already built.


Yeah, that's just what I'd do. Back when I was at uni, there was this weird sensation:

It was like I saw how the result of a task should look like. It was completely random and came and go just like that. But I OBVIOUSLY can't solve tasks like that because some manual says I mustn't! Fuck that!

Just for the further info: I had no idea about that unit further than from what we learned during the classes and still I was somehow able to guess it right? The guesses were right, when I checked them against the results, they were one and the same! Uhmmm...wat? is it unconscious Ni?

I still got 0 points heh  !


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Yeah, that's just what I'd do. Back when I was at uni, there was this weird sensation:
> 
> It was like I saw how the result of a task should look like. It was completely random and came and go just like that. But I OBVIOUSLY can't solve tasks like that because some manual says I mustn't! Fuck that!
> 
> ...


Manuals are only useful if you're doing dangerous stuff, like dealing with chemicals that could kill you if you're careless. Otherwise professors shouldn't force anyone to use only one method, but sadly some professors are stuck in their old ways of doing anything. Indeed, I had the bad luck of dealing with an old fart that said that my thesis won't work and that testing the results from a paper was pointless. I will laugh a lot when I get my results and that old dude has to see that his idea was dumb XD

Oh man, I hate when profs do that shit. It's like you have to write a testament with all the steps for solving the problem. No wonder that academia is an asspain.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Blue Flare said:


> Manuals are only useful if you're doing dangerous stuff, like dealing with chemicals that could kill you if you're careless. Otherwise professors shouldn't force anyone to use only one method, but sadly some professors are stuck in their old ways of doing anything. Indeed, I had the bad luck of dealing with an old fart that said that my thesis won't work and that testing the results from a paper was pointless. I will laugh a lot when I get my results and that old dude has to see that his idea was dumb XD
> 
> Oh man, I hate when profs do that shit. It's like you have to write a testament with all the steps for solving the problem. No wonder that academia is an asspain.


OMG this reminds me of some old hag in my high school. From informatics(computers).

So, she came to us in 3rd grade and prior(in 2nd) to her we had a kind and experienced prof. Besides other things he knew my father etc. So, he taught us to use scanf and printf functions, perfectly normal, if a bit antiquated. I had straight A in his class. So, FF to 3rd grade. There I was being tested in front of the board and she gives me some easy peasy task like "load first five odd natural numbers and write them out". So, I began doing and I finished it via scanf and printf. To what she replies "that's a lie! I don't want to see that!" to what I reply "eh, yeah, what do you want?" and she "you know fully well or do you not?" and finally me "this is 100% right". Then she says "of course it is not! Here's an F and learn better!".

...then ruckus broke out. It all began by me saying "you stupid old lying bitch. I don't care about your methods, this is 100% fucking correct!" and then another math/info wiz joined me by saying "uh, but prof, he can do it like that, why not? It IS GOING to do JUSt what you asked him!". She "But I don't want that way! I dislike it". Me "I don't care what your fucking cunt likes or dislikes. It's either correct or it isn't." and wiz "BUT! we can go on a computer and you'll see! He is CORRECT!" ...

...she finally backed down in front of me, that wiz and my class leader(prof). And said "well...it is correct, here have a B" in such a tone like if someone flinged a piece of shit in her face. I had...B in the end. Not only that but instead of us learning mysql or php, we wasted a full year on what we already learned(C++). ...FUCK! ASSWIPE!

No comment aye?

edit: she wanted me to use cin and cout functions, for whatever reason(they are the exact same fucking thing as scanf and printf).

edit edit: whatever. just whatever. Such professors shouldn't be that vocation imo.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> OMG this reminds me of some old hag in my high school. From informatics(computers).
> 
> So, she came to us in 3rd grade and prior(in 2nd) to her we had a kind and experienced prof. Besides other things he knew my father etc. So, he taught us to use scanf and printf functions, perfectly normal, if a bit antiquated. I had straight A in his class. So, FF to 3rd grade. There I was being tested in front of the board and she gives me some easy peasy task like "load first five odd natural numbers and write them out". So, I began doing and I finished it via scanf and printf. To what she replies "that's a lie! I don't want to see that!" to what I reply "eh, yeah, what do you want?" and she "you know fully well or do you not?" and finally me "this is 100% right". Then she says "of course it is not! Here's an F and learn better!".
> 
> ...


Good thing that the bitch fixed that, but really she's so narrow minded that then people wonder why schools kills creative ideas. I think that informatics should be taught depending what you want to study, as some coding languages are useful for specific careers, like I saw something called Perl that's used for bioinformatics. I'm working now with molecular dynamics, so I will end learning Python sooner or later.

Seriously that old woman shouldn't be allowed to teach, as she's creating mindless drones. Sadly standarized tests contribute to the industry like mindset of schools.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

emberfly said:


> I was just wondering what each of the different IEs might feel compelled to complain about.
> 
> :s:
> I'm tired.
> ...


Good, imo. 



> :i:
> I'm bored.
> I don't want to do that.
> That's boring.
> ...


Applies to Se as well. 



> :t:
> Wow they are really taking their time...
> That's a waste of time.
> There's no way this can end well.
> ...


Stop be in such a hurry.
Stop worry about the future.



> :
> You don't know what you're talking about.
> This is really ineffective.
> That's false.
> ...


That's not factually correct.
Why can't you follow the steps and procedures?
Learn to stick to the plan.
That's not realistic. 



> :L:
> You're being inconsistent.
> You are contradicting yourself.


You're illogical.
That doesn't make any sense. 



> :r:
> Whatever.
> I don't care.
> I hate that.
> ...


This wasn't your greatest example, lol. But there's one word above all, and that's:
Hypocrite



> :f:
> That's hideous.
> You are completely useless.
> That's not needed.
> Get ahold of yourself! ("man up")


I don't think there's anything specific Se complains about tbh, except maybe:

That's not realistic.



> :e:
> I'm totally at a loss for what Fe would complain about.


You should smile more. 
You're being disruptive.




> What do you most often complain about?


I mostly complain about dumb people, probably, and things I find dumb in general.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

@_Entropic_

I thought of one way Se types complain (it's kind of specific, but not very).

My experience with Se-leads is kind of the inverse of myself when it comes to what I complain about. By that I mean, since my suggestive function is Se, whenever I throw a tantrum it's because I'm feeling pressured to do something that I know I have to do but I put it off, I tend to want to bitch and whine about it or try and avoid it.

Se types are the same with Ni. Whenever you point out a different perspective on something, or you remind them that things are different at different points in time because the context is no longer the same, or you try to get them to realize something is futile, often the reality is that they already know all of that, but they hate having to admit to it, or acknowledge it, and so they throw a little tantrum and it's _exactly_ the same kind of a tantrum I throw with my suggestive function.

So maybe something along the lines of:

"Ugh, stop being so fatalistic."
"With that attitude you'll never succeed."
"Lol, who cares what other people think!"


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

emberfly said:


> And then you Google it and find out that "smart" in .co.uk land means "well-dressed."


'Sharp' also means well-dressed. I've used it before and had people giving me funny looks. :kitteh:


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Abraxas said:


> "Lol, who cares what other people think!"


I've used that one before.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

I think this depends on in which position the IME is. I almost never complain Si things, but always complaining that (NE) I'm bored and there is nothing interesting to do. I kinda look up to others to find entertaining things and I'm saying those to encourage them I guess ? Dunno. As I'm not able to produce that myself, weaker Ne, imo.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Mine:

Te/Ti
"It doesn't work that way"
"Get to the point"
"It doesn't make any sense" - used _very _often
"How come you can't read and do what it says? Do you want this thing to work or not?"
"Why on earth they decided that it'll go off all right?"

Possibly Ne
"No, it wouldn't worth it"

Fe PoLR
"Let's calm down"
"Don't kick up a storm"

Si
"I'm tired/exhausted"
"Don't distract me" - be meant: "Don't ruin my zen-Si concentration moment"


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

crashbandicoot said:


> I think this depends on in which position the IME is. I almost never complain Si things, but always complaining that (NE) I'm bored and there is nothing interesting to do. I kinda look up to others to find entertaining things and I'm saying those to encourage them I guess ? Dunno. As I'm not able to produce that myself, weaker Ne, imo.


That's actually a very clever observation. 

I mean, I'll complain that something I have to do is boring, because I'm very aware of how interesting something is to me.

But, more likely, I will complain about Si things-- Which is the area that I'm not so strong in and depend on other people to provide help with. :kitteh:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Abraxas said:


> @_Entropic_
> 
> I thought of one way Se types complain (it's kind of specific, but not very).
> 
> ...


Lol the funny thing is that I would say those things so dunno, it seems enneagram related to me.

@Night Huntress often complains about things being bored, she's got nothing to do etc.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

People who complain about being bored are the worst. I complain about people who complain about being bored, especially when they have free time. It's like...you've done all that shit so you can get here, and now all you want to do is whine and complain about how free and unimpeded you are.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

emberfly said:


> :s:
> I'm tired.
> My feet hurt.
> I need to sit down.
> ...


My main complaints would most closely coincide with the ones listed as Ne and Se, the Si ones I've kept there are usually excuses I make when I want to get out of doing something.



emberfly said:


> What do you think each IE might complain about? What do you most often complain about?


I'm not so sure about the first question; I think to a large extent it depends on upbringing, attitude _and_ who is listening to them. A lot of my complaints are similar to the ones I've kept there, otherwise it's usually complaining about someone whose moral compass is suffering from severe malfunction, or whom are particularly hypocritical, or dangerously/painfully stupid.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I think I have decided I don't like Ti. The analogy is getting clearer to me. I was watching something last night on Alphabets/language. The Romans used straight lines in their letters. There wasn't much paper, plus they wrote on stone tablets. lol. That is fucking Ti. Right there. It hit me. When you are writing on that kind of surface, you gotta push down hard, and be straight. It is like cutting fabric or something. It is boring and mechanical. It leaves you little movement. It is rigid, deep and narrow. Like the 10 commandments. It is sterile in a sense. I used to think Te was sterile thought, but now I think Ti is. With curved writing, you can say more with less. You spend less time in "production." Like I complain about Jung being so long winded, that is why I think he is Ti dom. Compare him to CS Lewis. CS Lewis has curves. He is sexy. He has an hourglass figure. His words do. Some girl on here said that Te was sexy, and I kind of rolled my eyes, but those curves are sexy. Lewis is sexier than Jung. 

What can you do within the 10 commandments? Within those lines? Not much. It is still water. But what can do with wider canals? With twists and turns. You create current. Speed. Rapids. Through movement around objects. That is why Ni has a greater intensity than Ti imo. Ni doms have a flowing and twisting current. Like water. Real water. 

I now refer to Ti as "the iron finger". I have dabbled with the idea of a "Ti finger" before, but now I think I got it. The "iron finger" is lifted from an American Indian story I always liked though:

"Your religion was written upon tablets of stone by the iron finger of your God so that you could not forget. The Red Man could never comprehend or remember it."


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think I have decided I don't like Ti. The analogy is getting clearer to me. I was watching something last night on Alphabets/language. The Romans used straight lines in their letters. There wasn't much paper, plus they wrote on stone tablets. lol. That is fucking Ti. Right there. It hit me. When you are writing on that kind of surface, you gotta push down hard, and be straight. It is like cutting fabric or something. It is boring and mechanical. It leaves you little movement. It is rigid, deep and narrow. Like the 10 commandments. It is sterile in a sense. I used to think Te was sterile thought, but now I think Ti is. With curved writing, you can say more with less. You spend less time in "production." Like I complain about Jung being so long winded, that is why I think he is Ti dom. Compare him to CS Lewis. CS Lewis has curves. He is sexy. He has an hourglass figure. His words do. Some girl on here said that Te was sexy, and I kind of rolled my eyes, but those curves are sexy. Lewis is sexier than Jung.
> 
> What can you do within the 10 commandments? Within those lines? Not much. It is still water. But what can do with wider canals? With twists and turns. You create current. Speed. Rapids. Through movement around objects. That is why Ni has a greater intensity than Ti imo. Ni doms have a flowing and twisting current. Like water. Real water.
> 
> ...


This Ti preferer seems to agree with you--that Ti is the more consistent (or "anal") of the two.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

emberfly said:


> This Ti preferer seems to agree with you--that Ti is the more consistent (or "anal") of the two.


On the surface, it makes sense that Te would be more authoritarian. It isn't necessarily more authoritarian, but it is better at getting things done, which makes it seem authoritarian. Ti is certainly more anal. It can't exert its authority on the outside world so it creates arenas where it can. Like Jung. lol. 

I was also just saying that Si is "creating atmosphere" to me now. Si is good at creating atmosphere. So much so, that an ISTJ and ESTJ can appear to have more feeling than an INFJ, or even ENFJ. Ni cannot create any atmosphere whatsoever. It has no clue how to do that. It is a blank space. Can you create any atmosphere? Could you like have a father and son talk? Create it? Host anything whatsoever? Si is good at making people at ease. Ni is the opposite of that. We suck the atmosphere out. We cannot create it. Which is why it is absurd that Hitler is labelled a Ni dom. Nobody is better at atmosphere than him.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> On the surface, it makes sense that Te would be more authoritarian. It isn't necessarily more authoritarian, but it is better at getting things done, which makes it seem authoritarian. Ti is certainly more anal. It can't exert its authority on the outside world so it creates arenas where it can. Like Jung. lol.
> 
> I was also just saying that Si is "creating atmosphere" to me now. Si is good at creating atmosphere. So much so, that an ISTJ and ESTJ can appear to have more feeling than an INFJ, or even ENFJ. Ni cannot create any atmosphere whatsoever. It has no clue how to do that. It is a blank space. Can you create any atmosphere? Could you like have a father and son talk? Create it? Host anything whatsoever? Si is good at making people at ease. Ni is the opposite of that. We suck the atmosphere out. We cannot create it. Which is why it is absurd that Hitler is labelled a Ni dom. Nobody is better at atmosphere than him.


Atmosphere is a tricky word because on one hand you have the physical setting--the room where the party is. Are things pretty? Is everything tidy and clean and smelling nice? Is all the food out, all the everything done, blah blah blah ? What kind of art is on the wall? What about the color palette of the space? Is it soothing and tranquil? Is it fun and partyish? Is it really refined and modern and sophisticated? What kind of vibe are all of these structural elements of the space giving off/telling you about the place you're in and about what kind of people would hang out there? (reminds me of broken windows theory).

But then you have the social atmosphere. The general good feeling of a space. The kinds of people who are there. What they are talking about--what kinds of conversations are being had. How much excitement is there? Are they loud, chatty? Or quiet and tired ? or ?

Si is totally the star of the show when it comes to the first kind of atmosphere,

but I think the second is more Fe.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

emberfly said:


> Atmosphere is a tricky word because on one hand you have the physical setting--the room where the party is. Are things pretty? Is everything tidy and clean and smelling nice? Is all the food out, all the everything done, blah blah blah ? What kind of art is on the wall? What about the color palette of the space? Is it soothing and tranquil? Is it fun and partyish? Is it really refined and modern and sophisticated? What kind of vibe are all of these structural elements of the space giving off/telling you about the place you're in and about what kind of people would hang out there? (reminds me of broken windows theory).
> 
> But then you have the social atmosphere. The general good feeling of a space. The kinds of people who are there. What they are talking about--what kinds of conversations are being had. How much excitement is there? Are they loud, chatty? Or quiet and tired ? or ?
> 
> ...


Do you think Hitler is a Ni user? Does Ni build atmosphere like Hitler does, regardless of other functions? Even Obama is nothing like that. MLK. lol. He is the John Lithgow preacher type. The preacher from Footloose who wants to outlaw dancing. Those are ESTJ. Banging their fists on podiums and shit. Have you seen that movie? Do you think that guy is a Ni dom?

But back to Ti and Ni. When we were arguing about Bruce Lee, and you were saying he was Ti. Bruce Lee is the antithesis of Ti thinking. Is anything less like water than Ti? Is anything more full of its own opinions? Fi maybe. First of all, Keirsey threw off the whole system by making STP into craftsmen/fighter pilot type. Lee is not a craftsmen anyway. He is a visionary. 

I was just reading about Te in ISTP, or LSI:

"LSIs can tend to have rigid, unchanging views that are not updated over time and not stringently evaluated in terms of their applicability in practice. They can sometimes adopt ideological viewpoints that pay only passing attention to, or are modestly unconcerned with the acquisition or application of new or updated factual information. "

Again, the antithesis of Jeet Kune Do.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Do you think Hitler is a Ni user? Does Ni build atmosphere like Hitler does, regardless of other functions? Even Obama is nothing like that. MLK. lol. He is the John Lithgow preacher type. The preacher from Footloose who wants to outlaw dancing. Those are ESTJ. Banging their fists on podiums and shit. Have you seen that movie? Do you think that guy is a Ni dom?
> 
> But back to Ti and Ni. When we were arguing about Bruce Lee, and you were saying he was Ti. Bruce Lee is the antithesis of Ti thinking. Is anything less like water than Ti? Is anything more full of its own opinions? Fi maybe. First of all, Keirsey threw off the whole system by making STP into craftsmen/fighter pilot type. Lee is not a craftsmen anyway. He is a visionary.
> 
> ...


I know next to nothing about Hitler. I've never met him, and I don't care to. I don't know enough German to glean anything from listening to old video clips of him prattling on about whatever he prattled on about.

I don't find him very interesting as a person. He led a pretty boring life, in my opinion, yet one that received world-wide attention.

I've never read his memoir or autobiography or whatever it's referred to as. 


From what little I know about him, he seemed like a very nice man who was very emotionally-savvy, especially of the objective, group-oriented variety, but yet did a lot of things that made many people hate him.

But he did them because he believed so strongly in the future of his nation and thought he knew what would be best for his countrymen. Because ultimately his decisions were for his countrymen. Because he wanted what was best for them.

Could he have been an Ni preferrer? Sure, why the hell not? He seemed like a visionary to me. Especially one who hated Te/Fi values (stamping out usury? What?!?!)


Again, Lee, know next to nothing about him. All I know is that he loves Se--it's one of his top functions. He lives and breathes Se. Easily an SP type.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

emberfly said:


> I know next to nothing about Hitler. I've never met him, and I don't care to. I don't know enough German to glean anything from listening to old video clips of him prattling on about whatever he prattled on about.
> 
> I don't find him very interesting as a person. He led a pretty boring life, in my opinion, yet one that received world-wide attention.
> 
> ...


How does he live and breathe Se? INFJ are "scientist" types too. His method is entirely Ni-Se. His Ni vision in front --perception is important here -- and is fed by whatever is in the RIGHT NOW. Martial arts is precisely a type of system an INFJ would want to tune up. As it is more people orientated, and not densely logically structured.

An INFJ is basically a "cooler" and more gritty INTJ. lol. Which is what Lee is, and why he can appear to be an ISTP. So can I. It is because of Fe like you said. Te and Fi has more sterile speech. Fe has assimilated more of their environment, and thus can relate to people better in it.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Hitler is INFJ. You're referencing anti-hitler stuff. He was known among Germans for being able to connect with anyone, for his understanding of them. You reference extroverts concerning him, without mentioning the obvious differences intertype: he was far better than most of his type at what he did. You cannot equate a worthless inj who never does anything of significant value to a strong one. This is like comparing a stupid any type to a brilliant same type. Hitler may have been an enemy to most of the world, but he was the greatest of heroes to many, and fought a dying battle, and lost. Germany is nothing in the modern world. The last time it was anything was under hitler.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Hitler is INFJ. You're referencing anti-hitler stuff.* He was known among Germans for being able to connect with anyone, for his understanding of them. *You reference extroverts concerning him, without mentioning the obvious differences intertype: he was far better than most of his type at what he did. You cannot equate a worthless inj who never does anything of significant value to a strong one. This is like comparing a stupid any type to a brilliant same type. Hitler may have been an enemy to most of the world, but he was the greatest of heroes to many, and fought a dying battle, and lost. Germany is nothing in the modern world. The last time it was anything was under hitler.


Which is precisely why he isn't an INFJ. Do you know what Ni is? The guy had breadth of logical structure. He organized and played politician to a degree that would drain any INFJ bone dry. His entire focus was building of logical structure in the environment. Why would a tertiary Ti user have that focus? That is the last thing Ni-Fe cares about. He is like a Saddam Hussein type character. He is outgoing and nice too. Is he a Ni dom? A Ni dom would like more like Bin Laden. They are more likely to avoid you, not puff their chests out and take you head on.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Abraxas said:


> @_Entropic_
> 
> I thought of one way Se types complain (it's kind of specific, but not very).
> 
> ...


I experience it inversely, actually... being a type 6, I care a lot about what others think and I'm very attuned to how things can go wrong, and I'm the very picture of caution and resourcefulness. I actually prefer Ni types to reassure me that things are gonna be fine because the future isn't really as bleak as I sometimes can perceive it to be. I'm nearly always the bigger critic 



tangosthenes said:


> People who complain about being bored are the worst.


Why, _thank_ you.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

Night Huntress said:


> I experience it inversely, actually... being a type 6, I care a lot about what others think and I'm very attuned to how things can go wrong, and I'm the very picture of caution and resourcefulness. I actually prefer Ni types to reassure me that things are gonna be fine because the future isn't really as bleak as I sometimes can perceive it to be. I'm nearly always the bigger critic
> 
> 
> 
> Why, _thank_ you.


Are you one?


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Hitler is INFJ.


Pretty much every Socionist has typed Hitler as EIE, to the point that he is often used as an example of one. From what I've read of him, and the footage I've seen of him, it fits quite well.



Jeremy8419 said:


> Germany is nothing in the modern world. The last time it was anything was under hitler.


 Are you _fucking serious_​?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@FearAndTrembling
"to a degree that would drain any INFJ bone dry"
Wouldn't that be what I said before? You can call functions strong or weak compared to others for an individual, but that doesn't mean they are strong or weak compared to other individuals'. He was exceptional. You can't type someone on the premise that they must be a certain type to be well-developed with a function.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Pretty much every Socionist has typed Hitler as EIE, to the point that he is often used as an example of one. From what I've read of him, and the footage I've seen of him, it fits quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you _fucking serious_​?


I am an excellent orator. That doesn't mean that if someone films me doing such, that I am magically going to turn into EIE.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I am an excellent orator. That doesn't mean that if someone films me doing such, that I am magically going to turn into EIE.


LOL. Because the post that criticized you has anything to do with whether you are a good orator or not.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

The_Wanderer said:


> Are you _fucking serious_​?


lol, right? That totally threw me for a twist, too! :laughing: (like what year are _you_ living in?)


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Entropic said:


> LOL. Because the post that criticized you has anything to do with whether you are a good orator or not.


Was in reference to Hitler being a demagogue and that supposedly making him EIE.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Was in reference to Hitler being a demagogue and that supposedly making him EIE.


No one made that inference. The argument was this:



> Pretty much every Socionist has typed Hitler as EIE,


It's a factual statement and it was not made on the grounds of Hitler's orator skills. It's _how_ he tries to sway the audience when he holds his speeches that matter. Anyone can be a good speaker. It's not type specific, obviously.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> "to a degree that would drain any INFJ bone dry"
> Wouldn't that be what I said before? You can call functions strong or weak compared to others for an individual, but that doesn't mean they are strong or weak compared to other individuals'. He was exceptional. You can't type someone on the premise that they must be a certain type to be well-developed with a function.


Introverts are drained by the environment. We would rather communicate in the way I am communicating to you now. It really is an energy system. A Ni dom cannot maintain that level of activity in the environment. I can picture a Fe dom maintaining that activity, but not in that way. I could personally put on a show for a little while but I am losing speed with every second. It is like extension. My extensor muscles are weak. Hitler's "posture" is toward the environment. It leans that way. 

I have said before I would make a good consigliere. Like an advisor to a crime boss. But running the whole thing? lol. Hell no. I could never be a Godfather. I could only be an advisor to a guy like Hitler.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I am an excellent orator. That doesn't mean that if someone films me doing such, that I am magically going to turn into EIE.


Congratulations for your skills with oration; but those skills have no relevance to what I said. 

What I did say was that the majority of professional Socionists have typed Hitler as an EIE, what I am _implying_ is that they're better than you in the sphere of Socionics. If you're going to argue that the he's an IEI, then provide a coherent argument as to why.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I am an excellent orator. That doesn't mean that if someone films me doing such, that I am magically going to turn into EIE.


Hitler knows guys like you. He has addressed you. Words are only good if they move something. No theory should exist unless it can be applied. The goose quill has never changed anything. The demagogue raging at the masses and appealing to their prejudices does. Which is why he is Te, and similar to Marx. He has the impatience of Marx.

It is also why Hitler is an extrovert. He knows people like you have value, and be worked into the cause, but you should stay away from the forefront. He is a good scout of talent. He sees wide. He reminds me exactly of my ESTJ buddy. He knows everybody for the right job. He sees them as pieces of his work environment. His system is logical to the point of boredom. It is very smart and Te orientated. He is basically describing how one builds a Leviathan to protect the people. It is Aristotle, Hobbes, Napoleon, etc. It is Te. "I am the State". 

I think he may also appear to be Ni because he was totally influenced by Ni philosophy of German Idealism. Like Jung. That is traditional philosophy there. He is an ESTJ. A German version of a southern preacher. Jung on the Te dom:

*This type of man gives, the deciding voice not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. 

By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula ; all is wrong that contradicts it ; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively. Just as the extraverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for its own good, must his entourage also obey it, since the man who refuses to obey is wrong he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions ; his ideal must, under all circumstances, be realized; for in his eyes it is the purest conceivable formulation of objective reality, and, therefore, must also be generally valid truth, quite indispensable for the salvation of man. This is not from any great love for his neighbour, but from a higher standpoint of justice and truth."*


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Congratulations for your skills with oration; but those skills have no relevance to what I said.
> 
> What I did say was that the majority of professional Socionists have typed Hitler as an EIE, what I am _implying_ is that they're better than you in the sphere of Socionics. If you're going to argue that the he's an IEI, then provide a coherent argument as to why.


I saw one reference on world socionics, but I don't consider them professionals. Link to celebrity types you are using?

I didn't say he was IEI. I said INFJ. What's with the implied translations of MBTI on J/P switch theory?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@FearAndTrembling

Don't get me wrong, I follow your logic. I just think it is based upon a viewpoint of hitler. There are multiple viewpoints of hitler. You are using the western viewpoint. With figures such as these, I find it better not to go by necessarily biased views.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I follow your logic. I just think it is based upon a viewpoint of hitler. There are multiple viewpoints of hitler. You are using the western viewpoint. With figures such as these, I find it better not to go by necessarily biased views.


You don't know the history my thought. I fully embraced Hitler as an INFJ initially, up until very recently lately. I thought it was cool that INFJ had most of the bad guys. I have read Jung particularly on Hitler, and Hitler in the larger framework of psychology. I have said before that he isn't really worse than The British or Russians he was fighting. Hitler lead to the destruction of the British Empire, which is a good thing. I am aware that he isn't as demonized outside the West. 

Hitler thought what he was doing is right. Nobody walks around thinking that what they believe and are doing is totally wrong. They have obviously justified it in their mind, and the conditions allow it.

My point is that doesn't make him an NFJ. He is a typical ESTJ, doing typical ESTJ things. He is not even an atypical ESTJ. That is what is so absurd about it. I mean, not ethically, but the way he acts. He acts like nearly every ESTJ that exists, and why I really dislike the type. They are called "guardians" and supervisors" for a reason. They fucking are. 

The idea of Hitler being NFJ has just been passed down so nobody even thinks about it anymore. It is like what I said about Daenerys Targaryen. Blow away the smoke and mirrors of the mythos surrounding her, and she is a plain old SJ. 

It is like once a guy who has been a supervisor, hard ass Te user adopts a somewhat mystical element, he is now magically converted to an NFJ. Stannis Baratheon went from TJ to NFJ when he came the Lord of Light too.

I know the ENFJ type well. They aren't so fucking foolish and aggressive. They look like Obama.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@FearAndTrembling

"Hitler the furor" and "hitler the person" are not the same things. Typing should go from the person, not the role they currently adopt. Besides the supervisor, who is the actual boss, I am the de-facto leader of my work group. No one questions me. People consult me. People joke about how people get nervous when I almost catch them doing such and such. When I speak, people listen. Though my personality type does have an effect, the reality is that it is my strength as a person, not my personality type, that creates this situation. Because of my personality type, I accept the responsibility. My boss, via mannerisms and speaking patterns, subjugates to me. My boss's boss does this. My boss's boss's boss does this. 1.5k employees at my work, no title of any value, and most important people at my work know me, and most people, period, know who I am. You speak of "well I couldn't do that," and "no INFJ could do that," but it all stems from your perception of yourself and other INFJs you know versus a vision of a person. I have two INFHs in my work group (formerly 3), and all of them are stupid. Like, 100ish I.Q. I knew their types before I had them tested, because of similarities in behavior choices we have. They are nothing like me, however. They are most similar to children versions of myself. Why? Because I am a stronger person. Your type may be your type, but end-result perceptions of you will be determined by your individual strength as a person. I do not lean forward with people greater than myself. Out of compassion, I do not lean forward around people under my care. Otherwise, I usually do lean forward. How and why? Because I expend no energy by doing so, because the people are weaker than me. You should type by the overall person and not what they are able to achieve. By your stance, you have no place for a man amongst ants. Men don't expend energy when stepping on ants. Hitler leaned forward, spoke loudly, confidently enforced, not because of his type, but because he was doing so to infants.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I saw one reference on world socionics, but I don't consider them professionals. Link to celebrity types you are using?


Hitler was mentioned here as a representation for EIE. The wikisocion guy wrote a bit about Hitler here also.



Jeremy8419 said:


> I didn't say he was IEI. I said INFJ. What's with the implied translations of MBTI on J/P switch theory?


I actually assumed that you were speaking about Socionics in the Socionics forum. If you aren't, then shrug, it's a topic that's suited to the numerous MBTI areas of PerC, I guess. But if you aren't claiming he is IEI, what do you claim him to be, EII? IEI? EIE?... LSE?! :laughing:

On a side note. I do tend to think the "J/P switch" makes sense because, for example; "INFJ" is usually used to describe personalities dominated by :t: and supplemented by :e:, which is the Socionics IEI. But in truth it doesn't bother me greatly; MBTI is in my opinion the weakest of the Jung-derived systems.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @_FearAndTrembling_
> 
> "Hitler the furor" and "hitler the person" are not the same things. Typing should go from the person, not the role they currently adopt. Besides the supervisor, who is the actual boss, I am the de-facto leader of my work group. No one questions me. People consult me. People joke about how people get nervous when I almost catch them doing such and such. When I speak, people listen. Though my personality type does have an effect, the reality is that it is my strength as a person, not my personality type, that creates this situation. Because of my personality type, I accept the responsibility. My boss, via mannerisms and speaking patterns, subjugates to me. My boss's boss does this. My boss's boss's boss does this. 1.5k employees at my work, no title of any value, and most important people at my work know me, and most people, period, know who I am. You speak of "well I couldn't do that," and "no INFJ could do that," but it all stems from your perception of yourself and other INFJs you know versus a vision of a person. I have two INFHs in my work group (formerly 3), and all of them are stupid. Like, 100ish I.Q. I knew their types before I had them tested, because of similarities in behavior choices we have. They are nothing like me, however. They are most similar to children versions of myself. Why? Because I am a stronger person. Your type may be your type, but end-result perceptions of you will be determined by your individual strength as a person. I do not lean forward with people greater than myself. Out of compassion, I do not lean forward around people under my care. Otherwise, I usually do lean forward. How and why? Because I expend no energy by doing so, because the people are weaker than me. You should type by the overall person and not what they are able to achieve. By your stance, you have no place for a man amongst ants. Men don't expend energy when stepping on ants. Hitler leaned forward, spoke loudly, confidently enforced, not because of his type, but because he was doing so to infants.


See, you extrovert into an ESTJ or whatever. You deeply understand his inferior Fi, and love how he imposed it on the world. You secretly admire that. He fills out your rear. 

I supposedly like Se types for the same reason. They do, what I want to do. I don't want to be like Hitler. Hitler is a dork. Even if Malcolm X did all the stuff Hitler did, Malcolm is cooler than Hitler. I just like his style more.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> He fills out your rear.


You have a way with words.



FearAndTrembling said:


> I supposedly like Se types for the same reason.


You mean duality? I see you haven't listed a Socionics type yet, do you have one?


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

The_Wanderer said:


> You have a way with words.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean duality? I see you haven't listed a Socionics type yet, do you have one?


Yes. Duality. I would consider myself Ni-Fe. 

To be totally honest.... That is also why I have a problem with Fi doms, because I know that is what they want to turn into. lol. They are the same ideological bulldozers if you look at them from the right angle. An INFJ is softer and less stubborn than they look, an INFP is harder than they look. 

I want to turn into freedom, they want to turn into control.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I want to turn into freedom, they want to turn into control.


It's pretty immature to go painting IM elements negatively just because you're uncomfortable with them.

You also didn't answer my question; do you have a Socionics type you associate with?


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

FearAndTrembling said:


> See, you extrovert into an ESTJ or whatever. You deeply understand his inferior Fi, and love how he imposed it on the world. You secretly admire that. He fills out your rear.
> 
> I supposedly like Se types for the same reason. They do, what I want to do. I don't want to be like Hitler. Hitler is a dork. Even if Malcolm X did all the stuff Hitler did, Malcolm is cooler than Hitler. I just like his style more.


Or, maybe INFJ is EII, and he admired his dual?


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## jayoung81 (Jun 21, 2015)

emberfly said:


> I was just wondering what each of the different IEs might feel compelled to complain about.
> 
> :s:
> I'm tired.
> ...


Anything that has to deal with complaining really.
Why do it? It solves nothing.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Hitler was mentioned here as a representation for EIE. The wikisocion guy wrote a bit about Hitler here also.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I jumped into the conversation when he talked about INFJ and hitler. The J was capitalized and hitler is attributed as an INFJ, so that's what I replied to.

I think J=j, for reference. I think MBTI shows introverts id, not ego. If conscious thought is on subjective reality, unconscious thought is on objective reality. Objective reality can be objectively perceived and typed, which would be MBTI. That's my stance.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

@_emberfly_

Look through this Socionics typing thread on Lee. Some of these guys get it, and put it better in the language of Socionics than I can currently. The guy was clearly a Ni dom, with Fe. That is what Ni-Fe actually looks like. These guys said he has a strong beta NF vibe. Which he does. Just like Nietzsche. Who is also Ni-Fe. Beta NF. Lee is Nietzsche's ubermensch like I said before. lol. 


Bruce Lee


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Bruce Lee


Thank you for posting that link. I'm actually completely agreeing with you now.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Seems like INFP/IEI to me.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Lee is Nietzsche's ubermensch like I said before. lol.


No, that would be Raskolnikov :wink:.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

The_Wanderer said:


> No, that would be Raskolnikov :wink:.


It was actually Goethe, who is another NFJ.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

emberfly said:


> I was just wondering what each of the different IEs might feel compelled to complain about.


You mean vocally, openly, to others? I don't often talk about issues but ok, in that case, for me a lot of :L: and other stuff that looks like :f: or : but I think it's more :f: or even :L: in my case; 

The clearly :L: parts is stuff like, "that makes no sense", "I don't get what you are on about", "that's a contradiction", "that doesn't add up", "that's false", ...or just "bullshit!". lol. 

I also say things along the idea of "fucking pain in the ass getting in the way". I think from a :f:/:t: perspective specifically.

The following are usually not openly voiced to others but I think it a lot to myself and at times I do speak out about it, "that's ineffective", "inefficient", "unreliable", "should be improved", "not needed", "that's ugly", "that's uncool", "so lame", "real wimp there". 

As for :t: I say it to myself internally a lot that "something is a waste of time" or that "something is taking forever". I sometimes voice these as well.

As for :s: I can also say it as a side comment or as a superficial excuse for being a bit less quick mentally that "I'm tired" but otherwise not really into that. (And it's a superficial excuse because I don't actually believe it to be a valid excuse )

I hardly say anything about :r:, it seems, and it's annoying in others. The :i: stuff is mostly neutral in terms of how I never think of that. Not sure on :e:, maybe stuff like "what an asshole", "such an unsympathetic jerk", but I often keep that to myself if I think it's not ok to talk.


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