# Approve of me, daddy!



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

You know that scene in movies and books where the father/father-figure says, “I’m proud of you” for the first time and it’s supposed to be this big emotionally powerful moment of release, where the protagonist has finally pleased his stodgy old father/father-figure? Am I the only one who finds such scenes pathetic? I understand why it appeals to people—but instead of fulfilling people’s desires to please paternal authority figures, why don’t we instead teach them to be satisfied with their own accomplishments, even if they don’t get that validation?





TAA blog


----------



## Garee (May 2, 2012)

I wasn't close to my dad until now when I'm in my mid-20s. I'm only close now b/c he's retired and need me to run errands for him like take him to the doctor and get his medication and handle his Medicare and insurances. However, I've never seek for his approval on anything. I had more of a mother issue than a father issue. I think movies and novels like these stemmed from the creator or writers' own personal experience about lacking a father figure in their lives.


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

Confirmation does let you become aware thus take advantage of increased reputation.
Someone who validates you, will often provide help and attention, a better social contract.

It means less if someone validates you every day, since there is little new in the social contract.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

Thomas60 said:


> Confirmation does let you become aware thus take advantage of increased reputation.
> Someone who validates you, will often provide help and attention, a better social contract.
> 
> It means less if someone validates you every day, since there is little new in the social contract.


While that's good and all, don't you think that this validation should be more subjective than a necessity that you should spend your entire life trying to work towards? If a parent doesn't immediately provide you with unconditional love and support. Then why would you feel compelled to work towards something that should be granted at birth? Stupid and cruel if you ask me.


----------



## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> While that's good and all, don't you think that this validation should be more subjective than a necessity that you should spend your entire life trying to work towards? If a parent doesn't immediately provide you with unconditional love and support. Then why would you feel compelled to work towards something that should be granted at birth? Stupid and cruel if you ask me.


Biological love is unconditional, pride in your children is not. Your inferior Je makes it hard for you to understand outside decision-making factors, let alone the personal ones of Fe.


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> While that's good and all, don't you think that this validation should be more subjective than a necessity that you should spend your entire life trying to work towards? If a parent doesn't immediately provide you with unconditional love and support. Then why would you feel compelled to work towards something that should be granted at birth? Stupid and cruel if you ask me.


As life's purpose, parental approval is pretty lame I agree.
I might need unconditional love defining in terms of "how parents feel" as opposed to "how parents act", before I agree it as an ongoing birth right as I think withholding affection and support are reasonable tools against bad values.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> Biological love is unconditional, pride in your children is not. Your inferior Je makes it hard for you to understand outside decision-making factors, let alone the personal ones of Fe.


Let's look at the definition of pride, "A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired". "Widely admired" as in a societal norm that is widely appreciated, it seems to me parents nowadays are trying too hard to mold their children into what THEY want them to be rather than leaving their individual person be. If this is the case then this "pride" is entirely subjective and one should not even have to worry about something as arbitrary as getting your father to conceit worthless bullshit about his child.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

Thomas60 said:


> As life's purpose, parental approval is pretty lame I agree.
> I might need unconditional love defining in terms of "how parents feel" as opposed to "how parents act", before I agree it as an ongoing birth right as I think withholding affection and support are reasonable tools against bad values.


I don't think it's anyones place to exactly decide what a bad value is. For all we know that person could feel eating cake at 10:30 pm on a Sunday is a "bad value."


----------



## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> Let's look at the definition of pride, "A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired". "Widely admired" as in a societal norm that is widely appreciated, it seems to me parents nowadays are trying too hard to mold their children into what THEY want them to be rather than leaving their individual person be. If this is the case then this "pride" is entirely subjective and one should not even have to worry about something as arbitrary as getting your father to conceit worthless bullshit about his child.


You missed the important definition that ACTUALLY applies here.

*A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from *one's own achievements, *the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated*, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired"

Don't cherrypick definitions.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> You missed the important definition that ACTUALLY applies here.
> 
> *A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from *one's own achievements, *the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated*, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired"
> 
> Don't cherrypick definitions.


 Let's look at the synonyms here then; arrogance, haughtiness, vanity, conceit, glory, boast, any of these terms are rarely used in a good or optimistic manner towards another person(except for maybe glory). The problem is that either way you are still expressing an arbitrary pride towards something that doesn't matter or shouldn't matter rather. Whether you feel the definition is cherry picked or not it still chucks the same rock.


----------



## See Above (Oct 4, 2011)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> While that's good and all, don't you think that this validation should be more subjective than a necessity that you should spend your entire life trying to work towards? If a parent doesn't immediately provide you with unconditional love and support. Then why would you feel compelled to work towards something that should be granted at birth? Stupid and cruel if you ask me.


Just because a parent may say something does not mean the child has worked all of their life for the purpose of obtaining that approval. The scene illustrated in fiction shows transformation of the mind-set of potentially both, one or the other in the parent-child dynamic. I am not at all sure that the motivation of "obtaining approval from the parent" in this thread is as common as works of fiction might seem to imply.

I have always attempted to refrain from causing shame or injury to my parents, but, I have never done anything for the sole reason of soliciting approval from a parent. I think it is rather rare for children to behave like well-trained pets.


----------



## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> Let's look at the synonyms here then; arrogance, haughtiness, vanity, conceit, glory, boast, any of these terms are rarely used in a good or optimistic manner towards another person(except for maybe glory). The problem is that either way you are still expressing an arbitrary pride towards something that doesn't matter or shouldn't matter rather. Whether you feel the definition is cherry picked or not it still chucks the same rock.


Why is arbitrary? Why doesn't it matter?

Do you understand pride?


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

See Above said:


> I have always attempted to refrain from causing shame or injury to my parents, but, I have never done anything for the sole reason of soliciting approval from a parent. I think it is rather rare for children to behave like well-trained pets.


I'd have to disagree with last statement, well at least for the older generation. I remember my mom telling me that "I don't care if my mother beat me, didn't take care of me, cursed at me, and came home drunk or high out of her mind I would still love her." Which as what we've came to know as unconditional love right? But to me that's no different than giving credit were no credit is due. You're loving someone who doesn't love you back, for not even doing what a parent is supposed to do as a well, parent. So she's been taught to be a "well trained pet" theoretically from this mind set seeing as how she has already achieved doormat status. You know the people who say "I'm over 20 years old and if my parents told me to jump i'd say how high." I agree a bit of structure should be put, but just enough so the child doesn't go out of bounds and become a hazard to not only them self, but society. But putting such a tight hold on them as to the point they lose sight of their own person is no better than being too hands off and you're child becoming part of the "YOLO" generation.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> Why is arbitrary? Why doesn't it matter?
> 
> Do you understand pride?


I could empathize with that, sure.


----------



## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> I could empathize with that, sure.


No, I mean do you understand the difference between feeling proud of your child's accomplishments and forcing your child to do only what you want?


----------



## See Above (Oct 4, 2011)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> I'd have to disagree with last statement, well at least for the older generation. I remember my mom telling me that "I don't care if my mother beat me, didn't take care of me, cursed at me, and came home drunk or high out of her mind I would still love her." Which as what we've came to know as unconditional love right? But to me that's no different than giving credit were no credit is due. You're loving someone who doesn't love you back, for not even doing what a parent is supposed to do as a well, parent. So she's been taught to be a "well trained pet" theoretically from this mind set seeing as how she has already achieved doormat status. You know the people who say "I'm over 20 years old and if my parents told me to jump i'd say how high." I agree a bit of structure should be put, but just enough so the child doesn't go out of bounds and become a hazard to not only them self, but society. But putting such a tight hold on them as to the point they lose sight of their own person is no better than being too hands off and you're child becoming part of the "YOLO" generation.


I do agree that past generations had a different perspective that more recent ones, but, I still think a comment such as your mother's would have been fairly rare a sentiment. The different perspective, I believe, was based largely in the Christian commandment "Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy father." (Other religions and cultures have similar teachings.) The standard was, at a minimum, "honor" not, "love." 

What you have termed "unconditional love" is actually just a singular and situation-specific definition of love. It is sometimes a product of the sort of abusive pattern where there is professed love alternated with abusive behavior. (Sort of like the rat that keeps pressing the button, even when they don't get the pellet, over and over,-there is still the _possibility_ the pellet will be dispensed [it has at random times before] so they press the button....) That is not "love", that is a dependent child who has never had the opportunity to learn anything else. That is what that child in that specific abusive situation has come to know as "love". Sadly for young children, and later, some adults, they don't know/learn any better. That is not a "well-trained" pet, that is a pet terribly abused by their "owner." 

I suppose that love is a largely abstract concept for which the personal understanding/definition is deeply influenced by our relationships with people upon whom we were/are almost wholly dependent. Hmmm. Love stinks.

But, again, I don't know of any 20+ year-olds who, when told to "jump" by their parents, ask how high. The few that I do know who are very responsive to requests for assistance of some sort by their parents, are generally those that have the healthier definition/experience of love and hold an appreciation translated into gratitude toward their parents. These people that you have heard this from, just curious, do you think they "jump" because of their "love" or for the simple "approval"?


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> No, I mean do you understand the difference between feeling proud of your child's accomplishments and forcing your child to do only what you want?


Yes I do, but that's not my point. My point is setting high standards for your own child to achieve and if they don't exactly achieve them then you disown them as your own or feel ashamed and embarrassed that they are yours. Have you ever seen the high expectations asian dad meme? Sadly those kind of people exist. Simply feeling proud of your child is good i suppose but making it their priority for most of their lives is a bit ridiculous, do you understand what I'm saying?


----------



## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Tezkatlipoca said:


> Yes I do, but that's not my point. My point is setting high standards for your own child to achieve and if they don't exactly achieve them then you disown them as your own, have you ever seen the high expectations asian dad meme? Sadly those kind of people exist.


We're not talking about the same things, then. Why would I be defending the irrational choices of irrational people?

My point is that it isn't unnatural for a parent to be proud of their child nor for a child to seek the approval of their parents.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

See Above said:


> These people that you have heard this from, just curious, do you think they "jump" because of their "love" or for the simple "approval"?


I'd say it's strict parenting, not exactly "love" by definition. They have become so oppressed for such a long time by their own parents and had such ridiculous subjectivity drilled and literally beaten into their head, that that they absolutely believe their values are correct and a must, thus crippling their intellect and keeping their mind closed. A drone. some people agree with hella strict parenting, usually stating "If i'd said that my mom would have knocked my head off." But I'm more for balanced parenting. Then yet some kids dont mind having their heads bitten off, so I guess it really depends on the child.


----------



## Tezkatlipoca (May 7, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> We're not talking about the same things, then. Why would I be defending the irrational choices of irrational people?
> 
> My point is that it isn't unnatural for a parent to be proud of their child nor for a child to seek the approval of their parents.


I'm not denying that it's "natural" I'm simply stating that it's not necessary which most parents and kids think it is very necessary to try and make their fathers or mothers proud before doing what they want to do first.


----------

