# Disillusioned SO - An Unconventional Yet Typical Portrait



## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

sodden said:


> Conversely, I, like her, have very strong opinions on these things. I see a People magazine in the check out line and *my internal rant machine goes crazy *(not that I read anything beyond the cover or know who the people are, just the whole idea and the fact that people find it interesting, blech). Or, for example, I notice how* all the teenage/college-aged girls are all wearing the same black leggings and boots these days and it becomes this thing about how no one can think for themselves, why not just wear a uniform*? I'm not reading fashion magazines to pick up the latest trends, I'm just observant. I think the social instinct can work like this, it's kind of like* instead of everyone merely being a separate dot, you also see the lines which connect them, and then you see what shape those connected lines make*. It doesn't mean I'm an us vs them, group-oriented person, but I do notice these things.* It's part of why I love being in larger cities, or just sitting in the corner of a crowded bar. I like to watch how people do things, how people interact, and so on. I find it really fascinating.*


Hahaha, yes, exactly! I like the "internal rant machine"...I get exactly the same way, either the internal monologue or sometimes a quiet scoff to myself. And I cannot be indifferent or ignore it. Every time I'm standing in line at the pharmacy or grocery store, and there is always some internal reaction. If I'm with someone I trust or I'm comfortable with, I might make a sarcastic or derisive comment about them. 

With the leggings, my favorite is when they were leggings and a short shirt and nothing else. And I thought the 80s were bad for fashion-sense. 

People-watching is one of my favorite pastimes. When I'm bored of the house, I sometimes go to the local downtown area and sit in a coffee shop or bar on a busy night and just soak it in. 



sodden said:


> Just not the mundane. Something more transcendent, complicated. Intellectually higher. I, as a 4w5, like this, too, but for me a deeper emotional connection/feeling trumps sharing intellectually. Ideally there will be both, though.


Ah yes, I see what you're saying. I think you're right. I can't think of any specific examples at the moment. But, talking about the mundane is not a bad thing...I just get bored if that's the only topic of conversation all the time. It really depends on the people I'm with at the time. But for people who are only interested in discussing the mundane, and I'm puzzled by them. That's it? What about this subject or this issue? Don't you have an opinion? I mean, it's not necessary to me to have an opinion about everything. There are some things that I'm still undecided on, but I still think about them. 

Deeper emotional connection...definitely your 4 Fi talking. As a 5 Ti, it is not essential to me, and never trumps the intellectual.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

leafstone said:


> Really interesting thread going on here.
> 
> I have never really been quite sure what my instinctual variants are, and it's been driving me crazy. But I've just kept reading and reading and looking inwards and reading...Right now I think I'm most likely sp/sx or so/sx. And my issue is the exact same one you mentioned in the OP. I'm not sure if my behavior is the result of an SO blindspot or unhealthy or more countersocial (can I say that? does that make sense?) SO-dom.
> 
> ...


Yes, "countersocial" makes sense. For me, the problem was not determining if SO was my blindspot, because I determined a long while back that SX is that blindspot. My struggle was accepting a side to myself that I have long denied, and even now I can feel that revelation working on me. I'm still the same person I was when I typed as SP/SO, but I have a better awareness of who that person is, *really* is. 

I started looking at the SO-blindspot, because I was trying to talk myself out of SO-first. But I grew wise to my own game and wrote this thread to exorcise those denials and doubts. 

So in your case, are you indifferent and oblivious and somewhat uncomfortable in SO matters, like I am with SX? Or are you highly focused and aware of SO matters and consciously counter them? Also, think on these questions with SP as well.



LeaT said:


> For me an example of sx and sp conflicting: I'm talking to someone I really enjoy talking to and it got pretty intense. I have a gnawing feeling of being hungry however but I will ignore my feelings of hunger as long as I can in favor of talking to this person until I can't bear it anymore. Then I will have to eat. Or I'm very lost into an art project and it's already midnight but I'm nowhere near done. It doesn't matter though, I must finish it before sleep even though it means being sleep deprived and I feel tired.


My SO and SP conflict in the same manner. I'll be at a get-together with family or friends, and I might be dog-tired and want to be alone, but I'll ignore my tiredness and stay until the end. I stay because I don't want to miss anything. And when I would get home, I wouldn't go to bed, but I would get my me-time by reading or going on the computer until I exhaust myself and fall asleep with all the lights on and my glasses still on my face. I always thought it was strange since I'm an introvert.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Sorry! It seems that I missed this post when I was replying to everyone. I'll remedy that now.



enneathusiast said:


> I'm not SO dom, but as a 5 I don't feel comfortable unless I have a role to play. I think this looking for a role to be comfortable is a 5 thing but not necessarily an SO thing.
> 
> But I see you as SO/SP and here's my thinking.
> 
> SP is where you seem comfortable. That's what the 2nd instinct is about. The 1st instinct is what you seek. More specifically, it's where you try to assert your type. In your case, *context in the group that has nothing to do with what your 5ness can offer is totally unappealing*. What if that context had more to do with research or imparting knowledge? In other words, what if the context required your 5ness?


You bring up excellent points, and I think you're right, especially about the bolded part. A context that "required my 5ness" as you say would be far more appealing to me. I didn't think of it in those terms, but I was thinking that in the situation I described, there was no context that suited my strengths and my interests...essentially, my 5ness. Referring back to the church scenario, that suggestion was almost a little insulting, if I hadn't known that it was given with the best of intentions from someone I respect. My first internal reaction was, What, the nursery? Because I'm a girl, and that's what I'm best for, huh? But of course, I did not share this contentious thought, because I'm too contrary for my own good. 

But really? They couldn't think of anything better, knowing that my greatest strength is in knowledge? But there was no place or role for me to fill as a 5w6 ISTP woman, and I've just had to accept that. I ever feel the oddity in such circles, which is why I frequent them less and less. 



> I think our dominant instinct is a place we look to bring our type. If the context is appreciative of it, then we like it. If the context has nothing to do with it, then we don't.


This sums up and explains so many things that have happened in my life.


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## leafling (Dec 15, 2011)

madhatter said:


> Yes, "countersocial" makes sense. For me, the problem was not determining if SO was my blindspot, because I determined a long while back that SX is that blindspot. My struggle was accepting a side to myself that I have long denied, and even now I can feel that revelation working on me. I'm still the same person I was when I typed as SP/SO, but I have a better awareness of who that person is, *really* is.
> 
> I started looking at the SO-blindspot, because I was trying to talk myself out of SO-first. But I grew wise to my own game and wrote this thread to exorcise those denials and doubts.
> 
> So in your case, are you indifferent and oblivious and somewhat uncomfortable in SO matters, like I am with SX? Or are you highly focused and aware of SO matters and consciously counter them? Also, think on these questions with SP as well.


Oh, I see now. 

Well, in my case...first we have to consider that I might not be sx second. The thing that I'm most sure of is that I'm not sx first. I've settled on either sp/sx or so/sx because the descriptions of these two seem to describe me the best. I also have a friend I'm certain is sx last and I can feel a big contrast between us. He can be really serious and a workaholic, and I'm the one who's always bugging him to stop focusing on his work so much. "I know it's important to work, but don't let that overtake your life! You need to _live_ a little." I'm not entirely sure if this is instincts related, but I feel like I have more of a drive to live life doing what you love. I could never give my entire self up for work and not feel miserable. It's unfortunately necessary in life, but we need to find some sort of balance.

Anyway, that was just a little disclaimer, just in case. 

So let's see...SO matters...Well, first of all I'm not an extroverted person. I was always an introverted loner. I made friends, but never groups of friends. My friends were always from different groups in high school. And I was never considered a part of those groups. Speaking of which, groups usually tend to make me feel uncomfortable. I remember being younger, my parents sent me to CCD even though they weren't that religious. Going to church was my least favorite part. It creeped me out hearing so many people mechanically chanting the same thing. 

I can't remember if I was always aware of unfairness (I have horrible memory), but I know I was from my early teens on. I don't ever think I acted on it though. But it really pissed me off to see people treated unfairly or bullied. I was verbally bullied and taunted in elementary school as well. I hung out with the boys until 6th/7th grade, then they ditched me. I wasn't the coolest person in school, nor did I have boobs like the other girls (that came much later lol), so I felt pretty isolated. I was teased for being short, for being smart, for being flat-chested and for being hairy. I really hated those last years in elementary school and I think I tried really hard to get people to like me. I'd let the people who bullied me copy my homework, hoping they'd be nicer to me for that, but of course that didn't work.

Anyway, then high school came and I found myself caring less about what other people thought and found people who liked me for who I was. (And funnily enough, one of the girls who used to tease me in elementary school said to me, "Hey you know, you're actually kind of cool." Seriously! We didn't become friends, but pretty friendly acquaintances.)

Still, I am completely inept in social manners. Sometimes, I have no idea what the appropriate thing to do is. I probably come off as rude, but I really don't like warm polite greetings when I have no warm feelings towards someone, especially a stranger. I don't know what tone I should use with certain people (like the people I'm working for, for example). They come off as casual and friendly, and I tend to just mirror people, but I'm not sure if in this case I have to be more informal, since they're older? I think I come off really weird, because I end up trying both things. It's so embarrassing.

I really dislike a lot of social norms and wish they just didn't exist. A lot of them seem pointless and in my view, just complicate our interactions and understanding with one another. And small talk is the bane of my existence. I've gotten a little better at faking it, but unless the conversation turns to something I really like, it's exhausting. 

So I'm a bit confused, because on one hand I'm aware of some things, but on the other, I'm completely oblivious.

That's all I've got for now, and I feel a bit bad for writing so much, I don't want to make your thread about me or anything. xD


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

@madhatter


Been meaning to comment on this. 

First, I want to say, thanks for the epic amounts of honesty. It's really insightful to hear about the downside of the social instinct from a social-firster who actually had some good reasons not to think she was soc-first. I can also say that your frustration is a pretty good indication that you are that instinct, since your problems, worries, and aversions tend to cluster around those sentiments.

The way you found your social instinct, like @LeaT has said, parallels the way I found my sx-instinct. When I was first introduced to the instincts, I didn't see myself as sx-first at all. Actually, the only thing that was clear to me was that I was sx-last. 
What you wrote on @Paradigm's message thread as your blindspot resonates with me profoundly. I've never gone on a date at the late, great age of nearly-30. I seem to lack a real capacity for "getting close" to others, if my life story is any indication. I think it's bizzare as fuck to want to "merge" with others. I could go on. I was really surprised when I tested as sp with a strong sx on a reputable test, and it was even more surprising to think it could be first.

But, I have come to realize this sense of sx-lastness was born of pain. As a child (at the risk of making everyone totally uncomfortable with MORE of my issues) my peers rejected me time and again because of my face, my fashion sense, and everything else white middle-class brats reject people for. The boys daily informed me that I was an ugly, awkward dork. So-called friends pushed me away and treated me like I was "creepy". My step-father told me my naked body was "demeaning", and my mother once washed my mouth out with soap for saying the word "sex" (despite the fact that she endorsed women's rights to experiment and enjoy sex, weirdly enough). 

It wasn't like I was abused or anything, but all this not-so-subtle messaging conspired to make me resent basically everything associated with the sx-instinct. Love and romance? _Bullshit!_ Going on dates? _For desperate giggling girls with no mind of their own! _ Caring about how you look to the opposite sex? _That kind of behavior is for whores, and I'm not a whore!_ Deep, profound bonds my ass...I've no desire to get close to you. Get the fuck away from me; I'm not desperate! Why is society so obsessed with youth? When I'm 50 I better LOOK like I'm 50. (And I guess that's the reason my folks always called me "prudish"). It was like I had to put up this front of hating it so I wouldn't feel bad about it.


The whole time, this was set against a background of, "How come nobody ever falls in love with ME?" "How come other girls get to be so pretty? Why am I the frumpy boring one?" "Why does everyone get to have awesome experiences with life but me?" No matter how opposed to it I was, there was no way to separate from these issues. I felt chronically boring and undesirable, and I couldn't simply "put it all behind me", much as I tried. I obsessed over it, day-in and day-out. Maybe that's 4-ish of me more than anything; I don't know...but it definitely was resistance to the sx-instinct.

I didn't have the adverse reaction to realizing I was sx-first that you did (actually, my most adverse reaction I've had since working with the enneagram came in response to me finding my gut-fix). But, nonetheless, it totally blew my mind that a boring, uncharismatic, non-attached, dateless loner like me could actually be sx-first. Most of what I read about it still doesn't immediately resonate with me; my self-image (and often, behavior) have always been the opposite. So I still sometimes question it.

Ok, wow, that's longer than I intended. Sorry for hijacking the thread with all my embarrassing personal issues here. I guess what I'm saying here is that I certainly don't fault you for not seeing yourself as social-first, especially with you being a core 5, and I really enjoyed reading your rant. Thanks for bringing it to the table. I wish we could hear more about the "shadow" manifestations of the instincts. It seems to me that we hear a lot about how the soc-instinct can get twisted, but we don't hear a lot about how it can happen to the sx-instinct--it's very glamourized as being this super-seductive, magnetic person with "true, deep feelings", intense passions, and sexual power. But it isn't always like that, not any more than the social instinct means being outgoing and "pro-social".

I'd like to read over the entire thread now and weigh in, if there's anything further I wish to contribute. I think you all are having a great discussion.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@holyrockthrower, you summed up my childhood experiences as well. For a long time, I seriously believed I was undeserving of deep bonding for reasons I rather not go into here, but I totally relate to the counter-sx logic you're describing. I refused to go to high school parties because I thought people only wanted sex, drugs and alcohol and it seemed meaningless to me, and I refused to dress in a way that would necessarily be found as attractive to the opposite sex because I wasn't vain like everyone else. I was above all that. 

And yes, I also relate to the whole "Why does it seem like no one seems to be interested in me?" "What am I doing wrong?". Even to this day, I think of myself as demisexual and for a while I even classified myself as asexual but after engaging in a romantic relationship I realize this is not true. I also think the fact that I'm a 5 so I naturally tend to feel disconnected from my body plays a role in that as well. As I told @Maybe yesterday, I can totally imagine myself being in a platonic relationship if I must. 

So in many ways I'm very counter-sx culture. I didn't think sx was my blind spot though because I took an online test and I tended to rather consistently score sp/sx first before I knew anything about instincts so I went with it, and while I played with the idea that sx could be first since I think I deep down felt sx was really tugging at me and those that knew me well at the time can testify that my instinct was strong to the point where, as we thought, _it could appear first_, I didn't seriously consider it for many reasons anyway. 

I read on TypologyCentral that it's common and easy to often identify with your second instinct as first, perhaps because we experience more internal conflict that we're aware of over our second instinct since it is the second instinct that is in direct conflict to our primary. 

Anyway, I need to rush but it's an interesting topic.


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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

@*holyrockthrower*

As is often the case when I read your posts, I can relate a lot to what you've said.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Leafstone, thanks for sharing.



leafstone said:


> Oh, I see now.
> 
> Well, in my case...first we have to consider that I might not be sx second. The thing that I'm most sure of is that I'm not sx first. I've settled on either sp/sx or so/sx because the descriptions of these two seem to describe me the best. I also have a friend I'm certain is sx last and I can feel a big contrast between us. He can be really serious and a workaholic, and I'm the one who's always bugging him to stop focusing on his work so much. "I know it's important to work, but don't let that overtake your life! You need to _live_ a little." I'm not entirely sure if this is instincts related, but I feel like I have more of a drive to live life doing what you love. I could never give my entire self up for work and not feel miserable. It's unfortunately necessary in life, but we need to find some sort of balance.


Work could never be my entire life either. 



> So let's see...SO matters...Well, first of all I'm not an extroverted person. I was always an introverted loner.


Check. I was always an introverted lone wolf.



> I made friends, but never groups of friends. My friends were always from different groups in high school. And I was never considered a part of those groups. Speaking of which, groups usually tend to make me feel uncomfortable.


I never made any close friends in high school. But I could hang out with most of the groups in my class. There were cliques of course, but I was above such things. But, while I was welcome, I was never part of them either. Outside of school stuff, I was rarely, if ever, invited to things.



> I remember being younger, my parents sent me to CCD even though they weren't that religious. Going to church was my least favorite part. It creeped me out hearing so many people mechanically chanting the same thing.


CCD? What kind of church is that?



> I can't remember if I was always aware of unfairness (I have horrible memory), but I know I was from my early teens on. I don't ever think I acted on it though. But it really pissed me off to see people treated unfairly or bullied. I was verbally bullied and taunted in elementary school as well. I hung out with the boys until 6th/7th grade, then they ditched me. I wasn't the coolest person in school, nor did I have boobs like the other girls (that came much later lol), so I felt pretty isolated. I was teased for being short, for being smart, for being flat-chested and for being hairy. I really hated those last years in elementary school and I think I tried really hard to get people to like me. I'd let the people who bullied me copy my homework, hoping they'd be nicer to me for that, but of course that didn't work.
> 
> Anyway, then high school came and I found myself caring less about what other people thought and found people who liked me for who I was. (And funnily enough, one of the girls who used to tease me in elementary school said to me, "Hey you know, you're actually kind of cool." Seriously! We didn't become friends, but pretty friendly acquaintances.)


I wasn't really bullied. If I had stayed in public school, maybe I would have been. I stayed in up to second grade, and I do vaguely remember some of my friends turning on me, and I had no idea why. I was in my own world even then. But I had no trouble defending myself. I remember one instance, in Kindergarten, a girl was trying to make me do something I didn't want to, I don't know, "play dungeon", and I was supposed to be in the dungeon, which was under the slide. If I had been playing with them, it would have been different. But I was just minding my own business on the swings. She actually tried to pull me over and put me in the dungeon. I bent her finger back so hard, she started crying and ran off to the teacher, and I went back to the swings. I don't think I ever got in trouble for it either. 

By the time high school rolled around, I had the reputation for being crazy and no one messed with me. I could punch like a boy, and wasn't afraid to use it. My brother's friend used to tease and taunt me all the time, and I would kick him in the shins for his trouble. My brother told me once, very accusatorily, that sometimes I would kick him so hard, he would bleed through his pant leg. I replied to him, unapologetically, well, if you did your brotherly duty and stood up for me, I wouldn't have to. To which he said, Why do I need to stand up for you? You do just fine all by yourself. 



> Still, I am completely inept in social manners. *Sometimes, I have no idea what the appropriate thing to do is. I probably come off as rude, but I really don't like warm polite greetings when I have no warm feelings towards someone, especially a stranger.** I don't know what tone I should use with certain people (like the people I'm working for, for example). They come off as casual and friendly, *and I tend to just mirror people, but I'm not sure if in this case I have to be more informal, since they're older? *I think I come off really weird, because I end up trying both things.* It's so embarrassing.
> 
> *I really dislike a lot of social norms and wish they just didn't exist. A lot of them seem pointless and in my view, just complicate our interactions and understanding with one another. And small talk is the bane of my existence. I've gotten a little better at faking it, but unless the conversation turns to something I really like, it's exhausting.*


I completely understand, and I relate to all in the bold. When it comes to greeting people, especially strangers, I always try to be polite, courteous and respectful, because that's how I expect to be treated in return, but I know come across as cold and aloof sometimes. Not with older people. If I say, "Thank you, sir or ma'am" and give them a small smile in acknowledgment, they see me as a polite, good-mannered kid, because that's how they were raised to behave and speak with elders, like I was. Younger people see me as cold, because now the expected norm of relating to each other is this overly familiar, loose, almost insta-instimate style that I am completely uncomfortable with. I mean, just getting myself to accept a hug as a greeting or farewell from someone I just met was a huge hurdle for me, and I know I'm still very awkward about it. I've always related better to older people. I have always had trouble with my peers in that respect. 

I just wrote something similar to this in Paradigm's thread:



madhatter said:


> I often joke that I am socially inept. I mean, it's true to a certain extent, but I often surprise myself at how perceptive I can be when I'm paying attention. I understand people on a general level as a whole and I'm surprisingly good at detecting people's motives. But when it comes to other things, such as many interpersonal matters, I'm completely inept. I'm still inferior-Fe, the bane of my existence. The problem for me is (when I'm not completely oblivious to the world) that I see what people do and to a certain extent I see why they do it. But I still don't understand it, especially when it comes to relations between men and women, the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" shit. No, we're from Earth, jackasses. It just seems like they are all following a socially conditioned script, and a poorly written one at that.





> So I'm a bit confused, because on one hand I'm aware of some things, but on the other, I'm completely oblivious.
> 
> That's all I've got for now, and I feel a bit bad for writing so much, I don't want to make your thread about me or anything. xD


Nono, it's all right. That's what this thread is here for. I believe it would be incredibly dull if all I did were talk about myself. If this thread helps you in any way, then it has served its purpose. 

But I think that you might have SO as your first or second instinct. You seem to be very aware of such things but against them, like I am. But my own revelation is still so fresh, I might be biased. So, we have some SO blindspot folks around here that may be able to offer some insight. I know @Maybe for sure is one, and @Flatliner, @LeaT, @Paradigm...( @holyrockthrower I can't remember what your second instinct is!)


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

"Take a step back. Then a step forward. Then a step back. Now you're doing the cha-cha."

I'm going to go out on a limb here (not really) and say you're overdoing it (really). If something has you totally wound up, then you're probably obsessing. That's just not good.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

@holyrockthrower Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed reading it. I have to get ready for work right now, but I will respond to you more specifically when I get off work.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> "Take a step back. Then a step forward. Then a step back. Now you're doing the cha-cha."
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here (not really) and say you're overdoing it (really). If something has you totally wound up, then you're probably obsessing. That's just not good.


Overdoing what?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

madhatter said:


> Overdoing what?


Instinctual Variant Stacking. If the SO is getting that worked up over it, it's probably time to take a break.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

@madhatter, I was just wondering if you read this. I already posted a link to it in the instinct resource thread, but here it is anyway- http://9types.com/descr/5/ (As a social 4w5 I relate very much to it, too.)

Social Fives: "Recognition and Hierarchy"


I prefer to work in a flexible, unstructured way and to set my own goals.
I like either to be self-employed or to have a safe nook in the hierarchy of a university or company where I can be relatively autonomous.
Rules and regulations often get in my way.
When I do high-quality work, I like praise from people who matter to me, but I don't usually ask for it.
Either I attend meetings in order to pick up knowledge and meet interesting people, or I avoid groups and organizations altogether.
As an extrovert, I like overt attention for my ideas and contributions, As an introvert, I am usually satisfied by having my work known and my name respected but am embarrassed by showy accolades.
I love to dig out information and find out what the experts in my field, and in other fields, have to say.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_madhatter_ 

This is an amazing thread. I've been so caught up letting the implications of my core sink in that I haven't been commenting on instincts, but I will go through this ASAP (possibly later today) and give opinions if I can. Were you wanting me to explain how I experience an So blindspot? It's funny that you bring this up, because I was JUST trying to figure this out in a 3-way chat. I know I have an So last stacking (Quite obviously Sx/Sp) but still am not totally sure of all the implications. However, I can discuss my current, disorganized thoughts on the topic of my personal experience if you want..

Would that be helpful?


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Instinctual Variant Stacking. If the SO is getting that worked up over it, it's probably time to take a break.


I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you may be misunderstanding to a small extent. I wouldn't say I'm obsessing over it. If I were, you would be absolutely right and I would need to take a step back from all this. However, when I sign out here and turn off the computer, this whole SO thing doesn't bother me much, if at all. I just discovered something about myself in a new light, and wanted to talk about it with people who share a common vocabulary for these things, and shared some honest impressions and reactions. My anger I described was not towards the entity of SO itself or any construct created by the Enneagram, but what it represents for me personally. Since I wrote the OP, the anger has already passed, and now I've moved on to exploring this side of myself within and outside of the Enneagram and understanding it better.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Instinctual Variant Stacking. If the SO is getting that worked up over it, it's probably time to take a break.


I don't know about the SO but the SX will never take a break and will yearn for more and more and more!! >=]


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

sodden said:


> madhatter, I was just wondering if you read this. I already posted a link to it in the instinct resource thread, but here it is anyway- http://9types.com/descr/5/ (As a social 4w5 I relate very much to it, too.)
> 
> Social Fives: "Recognition and Hierarchy"
> 
> ...


No, I haven't seen it before. This is spot-on. Thanks!


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Maybe said:


> @_madhatter_
> 
> This is an amazing thread. I've been so caught up letting the implications of my core sink in that I haven't been commenting on instincts, but I will go through this ASAP (possibly later today) and give opinions if I can. Were you wanting me to explain how I experience an So blindspot? It's funny that you bring this up, because I was JUST trying to figure this out in a 3-way chat. I know I have an So last stacking (Quite obviously Sx/Sp) but still am not totally sure of all the implications. However, I can discuss my current, disorganized thoughts on the topic of my personal experience if you want..
> 
> Would that be helpful?


Thank you.  Yeah go for it. If there ever were a place, it's here. I think it would be helpful to @leafstone to hear some different perspectives.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

sodden said:


> @_madhatter_, I was just wondering if you read this. I already posted a link to it in the instinct resource thread, but here it is anyway- http://9types.com/descr/5/ (As a social 4w5 I relate very much to it, too.)
> 
> Social Fives: "Recognition and Hierarchy"
> 
> ...



I'm a social 5. The above seems pretty accurate.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I don't know about the SO but the SX will never take a break and will yearn for more and more and more!! >=]


Ha...ha. :wink:


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

madhatter said:


> But I think that you might have SO as your first or second instinct. You seem to be very aware of such things but against them, like I am. But my own revelation is still so fresh, I might be biased. So, we have some SO blindspot folks around here that may be able to offer some insight. I know @_Maybe_ for sure is one, and @_Flatliner_, @_LeaT_, @_Paradigm_...( @_holyrockthrower_ I can't remember what your second instinct is!)


I can try to describe what it's like for me, though I don't know if this extends to everyone.

The only interest I've ever shown in social affairs was extremely sporadic - it happened seriously once, in my childhood, for all of a couple of weeks. I was in first grade or so and ended up turned off by group interaction whatsoever, because I thought I'd seen through it and considered it mindless. I had no problem returning to my original state of practically ignoring its existence.

I sit somewhere on a continuum from dimly aware of groups and politics around me, to not aware at all. Relationships don't happen with groups, they happen with individuals. If I end up in a genuine, meaningful association with a group, it's because I was first associated with an individual, or maybe a few members at the individual level; the only social "groups" I participate in are eclectic and small.

Oddly, I don't think I feel nearly as much social tension or grapple as much with social affairs as a lot of people who report themselves as 5s seem to. My first instinct is self-preservation, and if you examined my childhood you'd see that I was a genuine bubble child - not only was I mostly not caring toward the world of people, but I had my mental back to it. Sure I made individual friends in the sx pattern, but our relationships easily went deep over a few years or whatever period of time - and then I moved on, because I could take it or leave it. I've always moved on from people, and only recently have I started to form real attachments in the first place. I've never moved on from my personal quest, the one I talk about in this post: http://personalitycafe.com/type-5-forum-investigator/136431-other-motivations.html#post3448204. That specific dynamic has existed in my life since childhood, and it's all about me, forgetting that the rest of the world even exists.

I tell people I'm selfish. They don't seem to tend to believe me, but it's true; my life is about me. The problem with using the descriptor "selfish" is that people usually mean it in terms of self vs. other(s) in some way - and that is not how I mean it. I mean that for most of my life I never truly perceived myself in relation to the world in the first place, so I and my thoughts and actions are essentially isolate.

This is not to say I haven't done social things with my life. I went to live abroad several times, learned different languages, have enjoyed cultural exchange and so forth. But in the end it all filters back into the question of how it contributes to my knowledge, not how I can contribute to others'.

Going back to the social blindspot, I'll refer to this post:



sodden said:


> @_madhatter_, I was just wondering if you read this. I already posted a link to it in the instinct resource thread, but here it is anyway- http://9types.com/descr/5/ (As a social 4w5 I relate very much to it, too.)
> 
> Social Fives: "Recognition and Hierarchy"
> 
> ...


Responding to each in turn:

- I work however I work when I work. I don't think about whether it's 'flexible or unstructured' and never did until I encountered MBTI, and I inherently set my own goals rather than it being a preference.

- I've never truly cared about employment. I only recently figured out what I even want to do in life; any 'career' I've had to this point has been floating around trying to make some money to live off of, related at best to the things I find interesting or useful.

- Rules and regulations aren't something I tend to consider. I do what I do.

- I don't care about praise when I do high-quality work. I know when my work is quality and when it isn't.

- I have attended meetings to get information and so forth. I enjoyed lectures on scientific topics when I was younger, but nowadays I do this mostly when I'm interested in a specific topic and the group is the most convenient way to learn.

- "As an introvert, I am usually satisfied by having my work known and my name respected but am embarrassed by showy accolades." I don't particularly need to be known. In fact, I usually want not to be known or considered, to be the power that comes out of nowhere. If I have to be known, it needs to be for something that contributes meaningfully, but I don't seek this.

- That last point about information is a bit strange to me. I've seen a lot of people who do this, and quote others; I have _no_ tendency toward this. When I take in information it is without paying attention to social data like who wrote it unless I am going to use it as a reference for others; usually I simply consider and assimilate the information and end up coming up with my own ideas about it. If I know another had an idea I want to use I'll credit them usually unspecifically, i.e. "I've heard it said" or "I've seen the idea". I think this informational point might be building on the presumed Si preference of the dominant vision of 5, and being Ni dominant changes a lot about how I consider the world of concrete information and ideas.

Anyhow, I don't know about that bullet point list. I typically dislike such things in the first place, because I don't think they capture the essence of what something really is. I doubt the universal applicability of my experience, but feel free to ask me questions if you like.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ok, I shoot at that so blindspot list as well:
*
I prefer to work in a flexible, unstructured way and to set my own goals.*
Meh, can go either way. I'm more interested in a work atmosphere and ethic that fits me than it needing to be flexible so I can set my own goals. I like inflexible work, but moreso due what I wrote below, because some days I can be very up and over in something, and others not at al. I think I have adopted the corporate mindset of my generation where it matters less when and how the work gets done, as long it gets done in time and is of an acceptable standard in terms of quality. 

With that said, I know that structured work can in a way be better for me because structure and routine are what helps me to maintain integration because then I know what's expected the next day and I can plan around that, and the inclination to withdraw is easier to fight off as a result. 
*
I like either to be self-employed or to have a safe nook in the hierarchy of a university or company where I can be relatively autonomous.*
Can't say that I ever thought of this until I read it now. I have considered self-employment, but mostly with regards to do something I enjoy and feel passionate about. Also thing I like about self-employment are the free work hours so I can work 20+ hours if I feel like it and then other days slack. 
*
Rules and regulations often get in my way.*
Yes and no. Rules bother me when I feel they are unnecessarily super-imposed and done so unfairly, but generally speaking I don't mind rules as long as they are fair and reasonable. I do think we need rules to some degree. 

*When I do high-quality work, I like praise from people who matter to me, but I don't usually ask for it.
*I could desire it, but I think this has more to do with my 4 wing than anything personally. I do know when it's high quality though. 
*
Either I attend meetings in order to pick up knowledge and meet interesting people, or I avoid groups and organizations altogether.*
I can't say I didn't really think of it like this or this way at all until I read this statement. This largely unconcerns me. 
*
As an extrovert, I like overt attention for my ideas and contributions, As an introvert, I am usually satisfied by having my work known and my name respected but am embarrassed by showy accolades.*
I can't say I care much about this. I like to share things I know but I don't want there to be such specific associations to my name. I care more about the knowledge itself than the social impact it has on my person. I could be anonymous and I don't care. I believe in the "sharing is caring" mentality when it comes to creative works, for example. I care far more about the usefulness of knowledge.
*
I love to dig out information and find out what the experts in my field, and in other fields, have to say. *
This largely unconcerns me as well. Sure, I'd quote and reference when necessary, especially when I do think the authority of the name has a specific impact on the overall rhetoric but other than that, I can't say I care. It should be rather obvious based on my forum activity thus far that I put my own thinking on a higher piedestal than that of others', and I don't care how renowned or famous you are because stupid and illogical thinking is still stupid and illogical thinking.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

madhatter said:


> But I think that you might have SO as your first or second instinct. You seem to be very aware of such things but against them, like I am. But my own revelation is still so fresh, I might be biased. So, we have some SO blindspot folks around here that may be able to offer some insight.


I don't know, I'm still (re-)exploring my own blindspot, trying to figure out what is 6ish and what is SOC--even what is just simply learned behaviors to survive in a SOC world. 

To be frank, I actually relate a lot to @_madhatter_'s and @_holyrockthrower_'s posts. I think a lot of "SOC things" I do are for other reasons. I can observe and read people, but it's often for SP reasons (my well-being). I care about my tone and empathy because of superego, because it's wrong of me to hurt others even unintentionally. I'm worried about my place because I want to be certain, which is 6ish.

I think a big part of SOC-lastness for me is the naivety I have surrounding SOC matters. Why does this stuff matter? Why does everyone else care about it? Why don't they put in effort towards what (I think) really matters? Why does my image need adjusting? Why don't I fit in when I feel like I'm just like everyone else? What do you mean I'm not like most people just because I look different? And so on and so forth.

There's an energy towards SOC most people have that I don't. Even though I might want to engage in SOC at times, I can't, it's extremely exhausting. I care about causes but I lack the energy to help inspire change, since all that change requires knowing how to navigate in a SOC world. (Ex: Wanting to protest, having to find people on your side, having to round them all up, having to influence them, making sure everyone is settled, etc.) Even on a small scale and during no change, I get overwhelmed and wonder why life can't just be more straight-forward. Unhealthier SOC seems so much more complicated than unhealthier SX or SP.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

holyrockthrower said:


> Been meaning to comment on this.
> 
> First, I want to say, thanks for the epic amounts of honesty. It's really insightful to hear about the downside of the social instinct from a social-firster who actually had some good reasons not to think she was soc-first. I can also say that your frustration is a pretty good indication that you are that instinct, since your problems, worries, and aversions tend to cluster around those sentiments.


You're welcome. 



> The way you found your social instinct, like LeaT has said, parallels the way I found my sx-instinct. When I was first introduced to the instincts, I didn't see myself as sx-first at all. Actually, the only thing that was clear to me was that I was sx-last.
> What you wrote on Paradigm's message thread as your blindspot resonates with me profoundly. I've never gone on a date at the late, great age of nearly-30. I seem to lack a real capacity for "getting close" to others, if my life story is any indication. I think it's bizzare as fuck to want to "merge" with others. I could go on. I was really surprised when I tested as sp with a strong sx on a reputable test, and it was even more surprising to think it could be first.


Funny thing about that. I think I've mentioned this before on another thread, but I first typed at SP/SX in instincts. It's almost laughable to me now. 



> But, I have come to realize this sense of sx-lastness was born of pain. As a child (at the risk of making everyone totally uncomfortable with MORE of my issues) my peers rejected me time and again because of my face, my fashion sense, and everything else white middle-class brats reject people for. The boys daily informed me that I was an ugly, awkward dork. So-called friends pushed me away and treated me like I was "creepy". My step-father told me my naked body was "demeaning", and my mother once washed my mouth out with soap for saying the word "sex" (despite the fact that she endorsed women's rights to experiment and enjoy sex, weirdly enough).


:shocked: That is awful. 



> It wasn't like I was abused or anything, but all this not-so-subtle messaging conspired to make me resent basically everything associated with the sx-instinct. Love and romance? _Bullshit!_ Going on dates? _For desperate giggling girls with no mind of their own! _ Caring about how you look to the opposite sex? _That kind of behavior is for whores, and I'm not a whore!_ Deep, profound bonds my ass...I've no desire to get close to you. Get the fuck away from me; I'm not desperate! Why is society so obsessed with youth? When I'm 50 I better LOOK like I'm 50. (And I guess that's the reason my folks always called me "prudish"). It was like I had to put up this front of hating it so I wouldn't feel bad about it.
> 
> The whole time, this was set against a background of, "How come nobody ever falls in love with ME?" "How come other girls get to be so pretty? Why am I the frumpy boring one?" "Why does everyone get to have awesome experiences with life but me?" No matter how opposed to it I was, there was no way to separate from these issues. I felt chronically boring and undesirable, and I couldn't simply "put it all behind me", much as I tried. I obsessed over it, day-in and day-out. Maybe that's 4-ish of me more than anything; I don't know...but it definitely was resistance to the sx-instinct.


I think a good example of SX-first vs SX-last can be drawn from this, how they can look similar, but are actually quite different. This is quite similar to my relating to the SO-blindspot. I've sometimes thought, "I wonder why no one has ever asked me out" or "why do people always assume that you need to be in a relationship to be complete?" But it's not with the chronic obsession that you describe, just a passing fancy, noticing that something is lacking, and then moving onto other more pressing concerns. 



> I didn't have the adverse reaction to realizing I was sx-first that you did (actually, my most adverse reaction I've had since working with the enneagram came in response to me finding my gut-fix). But, nonetheless, it totally blew my mind that a boring, uncharismatic, non-attached, dateless loner like me could actually be sx-first. Most of what I read about it still doesn't immediately resonate with me; my self-image (and often, behavior) have always been the opposite. So I still sometimes question it.


Part of my own self-image that I've built up was around anti-SO ideas. But now I know that part of that self perception is a lie, and I've been re-evaluating that. 



> Ok, wow, that's longer than I intended. Sorry for hijacking the thread with all my embarrassing personal issues here. I guess what I'm saying here is that I certainly don't fault you for not seeing yourself as social-first, especially with you being a core 5, and I really enjoyed reading your rant. Thanks for bringing it to the table. I wish we could hear more about the "shadow" manifestations of the instincts. It seems to me that we hear a lot about how the soc-instinct can get twisted, but we don't hear a lot about how it can happen to the sx-instinct--it's very glamourized as being this super-seductive, magnetic person with "true, deep feelings", intense passions, and sexual power. But it isn't always like that, not any more than the social instinct means being outgoing and "pro-social".
> 
> I'd like to read over the entire thread now and weigh in, if there's anything further I wish to contribute. I think you all are having a great discussion.


Nono, hijack away. I'm really enjoying this discussion, and if the topic moves from SO to just the instincts in general, that's fine. It's my thread and I can do what I want to.  Bring on the tangents!


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

This makes me glad I haven't looked into anything regarding blind spots yet, because I'm pretty sure I would relate to quite a bit of SO blind spot as you did, @_madhatter_, but I'm definitely SO dom.

And.... um.... welcome to SO dom-hood?

_[sorry I don't have more to contribute at the moment, going to let the post stew for a while before further commentary]_


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_madhatter_, I like the point some people have made about relating to dominant and blindspot expressions of an instinct. The Sx post was very good @_holyrockthrower_. Sx firsts can have serious troubles and insecurities surrounding the instinct such that they may behave in ways that seems to counter how we perceive Sx dominance. I'll start this with theory using Sx as a reference point, and then I'll discuss my own stacking and SO last-ness.

1) Many Sx doms with distorted Sx have very erratic lives and the quest for stimulation and charge leads to unhealthy impulsiveness. In others, there is immense fear of intimacy and/or even strong disgust in the Sx domain. 

2)Whatever form it takes, the repercussions are compulsive, all consuming, highly challenging and neurotic. This is key to figuring out whether it's a dominant instinct or a blindspot. There is a fair bit shame or embarrassment associated with the blindspot, but it is not the same as compulsiveness in the dominant instinct. Also, with your dominant instinct, you expect everyone to have the same preoccupation and are surprised when they don't. For Sx, it could be something like "Why can't people be as intensely involved and impassioned as I am?" 
*
In your blindspot, you feel deficient and in need of remedial help as RH put it. *
There is dismissiveness, but *not* total obliviousness, which I have seen many people claim, as we do have all 3 instincts in us. The dominant instinct however is where you pay conscious attention, lose sleep, what keeps you up at night, what triggers you and makes you react badly. It is, as Naranjo says, a weakness cloaked as a strength. The blindspot and the dominant instinct can both involve discomfort, but the intensity of the felt discomfort, the compulsive attention paid to it and more importantly its tangible impact on your life tends to be more palpable in the realm of the dominant instinct, because it's the instinct where your type's passion plays out. 


The part about _relating to the blindspot_ and dom. instinct partially has to do with the fact that the distortion of a dominant instinct can, in some ways, mimic having it in the blindspot. For example, I am SP first. When I am unhealthy or whatever, I become very negligent of SP matters such as health. On the surface, it looks like how SP blind spots are dismissive of such concerns. However, my neglect of SP issues is completely compulsive and as extreme as my involvement with SP matters. It's not mere dismissal or shame or aggravation. SP is all consuming and overrides nearly all else. 
*
How best to type instincts?* :So, the key is to look for overarching themes in your life, not in the past year, not during a crisis, not just your interactions on the forum (which a lot of us tend to place a bit too much value on while analyzing personality because the interactive part of the analysis takes place with people who have seen you in one avenue, and while it's more telling in relation to core types, instincts can be tricky as a forum is largely a SO domain) but your entire life -- work, relationships etc. Look at your entire life script. What does it tell you?

*
 My own blindspot and secondary instincts described below:-*

*SO:* I am an interesting case regarding the SO instinct, because all three of my instincts are strong as is the case for some. I am also a core image type which also happens to be an attachment type. The part about SO that has to do with reading expectations, adaptability and mirroring, having influence, seeking recognition etc. is all deeply tied in what it means to be a 3 at the core. So, there are overlaps between SO and image types. There are overlaps between SP and head types, especially type 6. It's why Sp is often termed the most head type-ish of all instincts. There's a survival anxiety in SP firsts (in fact SP 1s are considered more anxious than 6s, generally) that is a combination of 6 and even 5. SP 3s are often considered to resemble 6s. My hypochondriac SP 'paranoia' about health could give any 6 a run for their money LOL. This is another thing to keep in mind about* instincts and how they interact with/overlap with core types. *

Again, with me, I have strong SO in the sense that I can wield any amount of influence I want if it serves my goals (and it often does). My leadership skills are phenomenal. I am also 7 and likely 8 fixed, so there's a flamboyance to me and an attention grabbing flair that is stereotypically at odds with SO last. I also have an immensely complex, abusive, violent and socially engaged upbringing (parents were socially involved and instilled in me a very deep awareness of history, politics, feminism, secularism and more...I had been roundly schooled in feminism, equality, political rights and freedoms and more by the time I was a fuckin 10 year old) as well as a history of travel and very stimulating cultural exchanges which I've enjoyed and found a lot of fun (I have lived in so many countries that I have lost track). My dad was SO 8w9 ENTJ and my mother was an Sx 1w2 xSTJ. Both were highly opinionated, stubborn, strong minded and were very influential socially. So, as you can tell, I grow up in a very SO environment. My upbringing highlighted the positives and negatives of the Social instinct. It was steeped in the SO domain. 

*SO Blindspot:*
Having said that, my sociability when I am either enjoying myself or gaining something tangible from it, influence and professional networking skills aside (which RH have repeatedly emphasized is not what SO means at the core), SO presents as a blindspot. Inwardly, I feel klutzy and out of touch with micro-interactions, the nature of social bonds between people, the interdependency between groups and individuals, perceived hierarchies and 'politics'--until I get dragged into something or get tangibly and strongly affected by it. Until then, it doesn't as much as make a blip on my radar. When I am personally affected by any of this, it's like a slap in the face because I have been dismissive and oblivious all along only to end up in a sticky situation. A feeling of something resembling 'shame' for lack of a better word enters the picture. A confused feeling of what the fuck just happened and what do I do? I am at a loss. 

Many times, it's a sense of not knowing how to navigate and not knowing how to read or make sense of broader social contexts or the nature of bonds between people. There's an awareness of deficiency, as RH tend to point out about the blindspot. Far more relevant is the deep sense of "I don't need anyone and nobody needs me." Interdependence is extremely difficult. There's no conscious criticality or attentive criticism of it or an energetic rejection, but just a sense of "meh". Social interactions, outside professional necessity and a few close friends, are draining. I can't be bothered to pick the phone and call my best friend/cousin..and nearly a year + has passed. I barely ever attend any family functions or stay in touch with family members, even those I like. I have my own self-contained existence. I am likely an extrovert, mind you. I am not some detached so-called loner person. For an attachment type, I am actually very unattached with the kind of bonds and affiliations that mean something to 3-6-9s. I have never looked for a "security of place" or tried to carve it. I am competent, and my competency speaks for itself. For all my fun social-y side, the SO happens to my last instinct. 


*SX Secondary: 
*is the instinct I indulge the most. It's a place of comfort, indulgence, creativity. It's like a vacation spot from SP. There's no fear/projections here. I don't dismiss or postpone it. I have no shame/sense of defectiveness/ not knowing what to do with it/ how to navigate it etc. attached to it. I crave it, chase it, milk the most out of it, breathe it, let it flow through my veins. I immerse myself in it. Intimacy, not just romantic or sexual (which I am awesome at anyway), is right up my alley. Neutrality is rarely something I inspire. I tend to be a rather polarizing figure that attracts or repels others strong. I form very intense stimulating, and if I care enough, lasting bonds with a few. In a relationship, I demand that the "spark" never be allowed to extinguish. I am intensely self-revealing with the few I let inside my inner world, especially my partner. I like to show them my scars and vulnerability and grotesqueness, all of me that is warm, vital, bleeding, exposed, wounded and scarred. I seek to lose myself in a partner to the point where, even momentarily, I forget that I exist outside of him. This can be a part of sexual union, but it doesn't have to be. I want to be drawn out of my shell and devoured. I want to lick and caress and devour every beam of passion emanating from my object of desire, be it my man, a work of art, my poetry, my love of stimulating and intense travel, anything. My passion for whatever captures my interest is all consuming. I would make an amazing stalker lol. I actually have some stalker-ish tendencies. I focus on the few people I concern myself with...like a laser. I don't want any veils, any barriers there. Then again, because I am SP first, I have a lot of unconscious and conscious barriers of my own lol. And still, I connect with the few chosen people very intimately, draw them out, penetrate them, study them inside out, without giving much away about myself UNTIL they reach a certain point of trust and intimacy with me (this extends to friends not just romantic partners). I don't make superficial connections generally. If it's unstimulating and lacks intensity and presence, I put it on the backburner or get rid of it entirely depending on pragmatic needs. I want to be strongly disliked/hated or deeply craved/liked/loved or whatever. There are no in-betweens for me. I am very all/nothing. Indifference, apathy, dispassionate attitudes are the bane of my existence. I want palpable all consuming involvement that I can feel in my blood. Sure, I can interact 'superficially' but this is short lived and only in the interest of a goal. It's discarded right after the work is done. I indulge, crave and enjoy a charged "in synch" connect. Focus is key. Diffusion of energy/attention is very distasteful. It's beneath my wants, desires and standards. 

So, my Sx is not only strong, I enjoy using SP to pay for Sx lol..and as I was telling someone..one reason why I want financial stability is so I can jump off a fuckin plane on a Thursday night if I choose or do whatever the hell I want without having to worry about putting food on the table. The realm of SX, in all its manifestations, comprises my fuckin G spot lol. 

In conclusion, it helps to look at your entire life and the enduring and repetitive patterns that emerge. That's the best way to ascertain your instincts.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_holyrockthrower_, you summed up my childhood experiences as well. For a long time, I seriously believed I was undeserving of deep bonding for reasons I rather not go into here, but I totally relate to the counter-sx logic you're describing. I refused to go to high school parties because I thought people only wanted sex, drugs and alcohol and it seemed meaningless to me, and I refused to dress in a way that would necessarily be found as attractive to the opposite sex because I wasn't vain like everyone else. I was above all that.


That exact thing. God, that's the sherd in my heart. Ouch.



> And yes, I also relate to the whole "Why does it seem like no one seems to be interested in me?" "What am I doing wrong?". Even to this day, I think of myself as demisexual and for a while I even classified myself as asexual but after engaging in a romantic relationship I realize this is not true. I also think the fact that I'm a 5 so I naturally tend to feel disconnected from my body plays a role in that as well. As I told @_Maybe_ yesterday, I can totally imagine myself being in a platonic relationship if I must.


It's funny...I tell myself and everyone in the vicinity I'm "asexual" so that I don't have to deal with the pain and longing. But, that's like so blatantly untrue it's ridiculous. I just can't quite break away from the self-image of being like this. I am strongly opposed to the chortling going around about people being "in denial" of their type, but that's exactly what it is in this particular instance...denial.



> I read on TypologyCentral that it's common and easy to often identify with your second instinct as first, perhaps because we experience more internal conflict that we're aware of over our second instinct since it is the second instinct that is in direct conflict to our primary.


This could put me at sx/sp.



Mizmar said:


> @*holyrockthrower*
> 
> As is often the case when I read your posts, I can relate a lot to what you've said.


:happy: ... Blame it on my 5-wing? Or are you sx-first, too?



madhatter said:


> Funny thing about that. I think I've mentioned this before on another thread, but I first typed at SP/SX in instincts. It's almost laughable to me now.


....me too. Others have said this to me as well...a number of sx-firsts, actually. Maybe it's some sort of "introvert" thing to assume sp/sx (although I'm technically extroverted). I actually mistyped as ISTP for a number of years.



> :shocked: That is awful.


Well...God, now I feel like a whiner again...I mean it wasn't as awful as it sounds. That pretty much represents the sum of all the bad things that happened throughout my entire childhood. The rest of it was actually fairly positive and happy.



> I think a good example of SX-first vs SX-last can be drawn from this, how they can look similar, but are actually quite different. This is quite similar to my relating to the SO-blindspot. I've sometimes thought, "I wonder why no one has ever asked me out" or "why do people always assume that you need to be in a relationship to be complete?" But it's not with the chronic obsession that you describe, just a passing fancy, noticing that something is lacking, and then moving onto other more pressing concerns.


Very good point.



> Part of my own self-image that I've built up was around anti-SO ideas. But now I know that part of that self perception is a lie, and I've been re-evaluating that.


But if you actually felt anti-social, then it wasn't a lie. It was maybe based on sentiment and not your actual experience, but not a lie.



> Nono, hijack away. I'm really enjoying this discussion, and if the topic moves from SO to just the instincts in general, that's fine. It's my thread and I can do what I want to.  Bring on the tangents!


Ne ready for action!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

holyrockthrower said:


> That exact thing. God, that's the sherd in my heart. Ouch.


And I could go on here, actually, because I just remembered that even when I was in my first romantic relationship I kept doubting why he was with me. It was so unbelievable in terms of my own self-image that someone could actually love me and desire me in such a way. I realize this is part just poor self image in general but when I was younger I was so certain I was so unattractive no one could fall in love or desire me. And I think it's only know, when I'm 25 years, that I'm slowly beginning to realize what sx actually is instead of suppressing it whenever I experience it around people, especially those of the opposite sex. 

Just been a long road towards self-acceptance in this sense, I guess. With that said, I highly doubt I'm just going to become very sexually promiscuous all of sudden that I think is often otherwise strongly linked to the sx instinct, but perhaps grow some confidence in this area at least not always run away and then start grudging others because the problem is my own self-denial.


> It's funny...I tell myself and everyone in the vicinity I'm "asexual" so that I don't have to deal with the pain and longing. But, that's like so blatantly untrue it's ridiculous. I just can't quite break away from the self-image of being like this. I am strongly opposed to the chortling going around about people being "in denial" of their type, but that's exactly what it is in this particular instance...denial.


Yeah, I can see why saying I'm demisexual is a bit of a cop-out in a similar manner, although in my case it's probably part true as I tend to be more attracted to another person's mind/personality at first than their physical appearance. Or I would probably not have met some of the men I've met in the past... I'm still trying to figure out exactly how sx works here for me as I have a recent real life example to muse over. Essentially it was a person I didn't really pay much attention to in any way whatsoever until we spoke and then sx just kicked in with brutish force.


> This could put me at sx/sp.


You type as sp/sx?


> ....me too. Others have said this to me as well...a number of sx-firsts, actually. Maybe it's some sort of "introvert" thing to assume sp/sx (although I'm technically extroverted). I actually mistyped as ISTP for a number of years.


Maybe. I know I experienced and still probably experience a lot of awkwardness surrounding my sx instinct in that I'm still very shy in this area. If I meet someone I like it's hard for me to dare to just go for it for example, but again, I think part being a withdrawn type makes it difficult too. Being assertive in areas I feel I lack experience in which I definitely do with it comes to sx stuff interpersonally isn't easy for me.


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## leafling (Dec 15, 2011)

madhatter said:


> So in your case, are you indifferent and oblivious and somewhat uncomfortable in SO matters, like I am with SX? Or are you highly focused and aware of SO matters and consciously counter them? Also, think on these questions with SP as well.


I realized I didn't talk about my relationship with SP and why I also have doubts about it. I've always thought I couldn't be sp last because I worry a lot about my physical safety. Yes, I am that person who annoys everyone in the car until they have their seatbelts on. I avoid doing things that are potentially dangerous, and I am the annoying friend who says, "Wait guys...isn't this a little too dangerous?" Roller coasters have always scared me, I always imagined myself flying out of one (some of you reading this may be laughing, but I am _tiny_, ok? ). 

Comfort is a must for me. I like being comfortable and in order to do some tasks, things have to be just right. I work best (cleaning my room, for example) when there is lots of sunshine coming through the windows. Decoration is important, I want things to feel right, I want my home to be my haven. 

Where I fail: I'm not very good at practical things. I have an almost null understanding of taxes and all those other money related things (see how much I know?). These matters are terrifyingly foreign to me. Of course, this could change with time...maybe I'll get used to those things and get the hang of them. I'm not sure. 

Oh, I forgot to mention health. I care about my health, but I care nothing about dieting. I try to eat healthy, but I hope to never, ever give up the pleasure of eating chocolate or potato chips or whatever. I'd rather have a little bit of a belly and be able to savor these things, then give them up for a perfect body. I mean, as long as I'm healthy inside, I'm fine. (Does this mean sx trumps sp here?) I try to exercise (but not too much either) to make up for it. I like going for long walks, that already helps with my cholesterol. (I had pretty high cholesterol two years ago, but I've managed to lower it quite a bit. Go me! xD)





madhatter said:


> I never made any close friends in high school. But I could hang out with most of the groups in my class. There were cliques of course, but I was above such things. But, while I was welcome, I was never part of them either. Outside of school stuff, I was rarely, if ever, invited to things.


THIS. This was pretty much me. I'd say I had two close friends, though. I'm from Jersey, and I remember senior year, a few of my friends went to Seaside Heights (now made infamous thanks to Jersey Shore ) for a week or something, yet no one thought of inviting me. It was really weird, because I remember being at the library one morning and they were sitting next to me talking about it/planning it. :/



> CCD? What kind of church is that?


Oh, it's catechism! I actually had no idea what it stood for and never thought about looking it up until now. Apparently, it stands for "Confraternity of Christian Doctine". Would you look at that, huh. My parents are Catholic, although they aren't particularly religious. Honestly, I think they just sent me there to get rid of me for a few hours during the weekend. 

My little brother only went up to 2nd grade of CCD until he asked our parents to not go anymore and they were like, "Okay, sure."

Oh man, I was so pissed because I did all 7 years and had no idea my parents were okay with me not going if I didn't want to. xD



> I wasn't really bullied. If I had stayed in public school, maybe I would have been. I stayed in up to second grade, and I do vaguely remember some of my friends turning on me, and I had no idea why. I was in my own world even then. But I had no trouble defending myself. I remember one instance, in Kindergarten, a girl was trying to make me do something I didn't want to, I don't know, "play dungeon", and I was supposed to be in the dungeon, which was under the slide. If I had been playing with them, it would have been different. But I was just minding my own business on the swings. She actually tried to pull me over and put me in the dungeon. I bent her finger back so hard, she started crying and ran off to the teacher, and I went back to the swings. I don't think I ever got in trouble for it either.


Wish I was that badass.  I developed a few methods of escaping really annoying kids who wouldn't leave me alone at lunch. They were: a) When they put their hands around my mouth (which I HATED), I licked their hands so they could freak out and I could run off; b) Scream REALLY LOUDLY until they left me; c) Scratch and bite. Or dig my nails into their skin. 

They still bothered me, though. :/



> Not with older people. If I say, "Thank you, sir or ma'am" and give them a small smile in acknowledgment, they see me as a polite, good-mannered kid, because that's how they were raised to behave and speak with elders, like I was.


This just made me realize what I wrote might have sounded a bit weird. But I forgot to mention the context! I've been living in Portugal for the past five years, and in Portuguese there is the formal and informal "you" (like in various other languages). While I was raised bilingual, my Portuguese was nowhere near a native's. I always used the informal "you" at home. And while I've gotten much better with my Portuguese here, I still can't quite use "you" correctly. Sometimes I come off as too formal, other times as too informal. I feel like other people in my situation would have picked up on it easier, but for some reason, I have a really hard time. 

So, the lady I'm working for treats me with the informal you, so my instinct is to do the same. In fact, when she first contacted me, that's what I did. But then I realized she was much older than me, and I thought, "Great I've screwed up. Or have I!?!" I'm still not sure. I try to avoid using "you", but you have to conjugate the verbs accordingly, too, so UGH. (I know I can just ask her what she prefers to be called, but...I don't know, I guess I'm too embarrassed? Like, I've let this weird mix go on for so long, I'm embarrassed to ask now...) 

So, I'm not sure if my complete ineptitude in this field points to weak SO or if my awareness of it means otherwise. :/

As for younger people...hmm, I don't know. I think I still try to come off as polite and kind, it might depend on my first impression of them. I'm really not sure how I come across, actually.


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## leafling (Dec 15, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> I don't know, I'm still (re-)exploring my own blindspot, trying to figure out what is 6ish and what is SOC--even what is just simply learned behaviors to survive in a SOC world.
> 
> To be frank, I actually relate a lot to @_madhatter_'s and @_holyrockthrower_'s posts. I think a lot of "SOC things" I do are for other reasons. _I can observe and read people, but it's often for SP reasons (my well-being)._ *I care about my tone and empathy because of superego, because it's wrong of me to hurt others even unintentionally. I'm worried about my place because I want to be certain, which is 6ish.*
> 
> ...


Okay, I actually relate a lot to this. I think I've been overthinking this whole instincts business, because I can't clearly figure out if I do so stuff for sp reasons or not. So I'm going to leave that thought hanging for now.

But the part about the superego is so spot on. Yes, that is exactly why I act so nice, kind and polite around people! Because there's that voice in the back of my head telling me that's the right thing to do. I don't want to hurt people. That actually never occured to me until I read this! And I feel like I can relate to worrying about my place just to be certain. I hate not knowing what's going on or where I stand, it makes me feel so uneasy. 

I think the why of social matters I get, at least in theory. I understand it's important. It still does befuddle me, though. I can relate strongly to the questions I bolded. I feel different from others, but at the same time, I'm not all that different, so why do I fail to fit in? 

And caring about causes but not lacking the energy to cause change!! Yes!! This is me! I believe very strongly in some causes, especially social causes, but when it comes to actively doing something about it...I'm just not good at it and I retreat. If there's someone close to me I can follow, then I follow. If not, I don't do much. I just sign some petitions and maybe leave a comment here and there on the internet, but even that's scary for me. I really hate this about myself and I wish it weren't true. :/


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## leafling (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay, I have a bit more to say, and I want to reply to @Boss' fantastic post, but I'm really, really sleepy right now. I think I'll take care of this tomorrow. I hope my last posts make sense, I can't really tell right now. :x


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

leafstone said:


> But the part about the superego is so spot on. Yes, that is exactly why I act so nice, kind and polite around people! Because there's that voice in the back of my head telling me that's the right thing to do. I don't want to hurt people. That actually never occured to me until I read this!


It took me a long time to (partially) understand how my superego works. I noticed that even when I don't care, I still convince myself to put forth the effort of seeming like I do. Obviously I do care sometimes. But a lot of times it's for moralistic reasons, that it's the Right thing. Sometimes it's for selfish reasons, like I'm afraid if I show I don't care, people will not care about me. 



> I think the why of social matters I get, at least in theory. I understand it's important. It still does befuddle me, though.


I may be an "extreme" case, but it's only recently that I started understanding SOC matters. I mean, a few of them I kinda got, but now I feel like I'm more responsive, at least with regular SOC. (_Some _counter-SOC confuses me. Why would anyone actively not fit in? So much effort "wasted" in my eyes, because it's often not a fight to be authentic, it's just a fight to be different.)

Though when I say _understand_, I might mean _become aware of_. For example, I would often just brush it off (and quickly forget) when I was told I dressed silly, but now I'm more likely to ask if my outfit is appropriate. In high school, I was quite literally unaware that cliques existed, and I still can't identify them that often. Cliques are actually an odd thing to consider for me, because what some people might consider a group, I usually just consider it friends feeling comfortable around each other but not purposefully excluding others (which might be SOC naivety again). 



> I just sign some petitions and maybe leave a comment here and there on the internet, but even that's scary for me. I really hate this about myself and I wish it weren't true. :/


I can't even do that, but I have social anxiety/phobia and care about my privacy. I don't really like this about myself either, honestly. SOC seems like something I admire in others when used "properly," assuming I'm correctly identifying it.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

I've come to the conclusion that I'm sp/so, with a fairly strong so, and sx quite far behind; reading about sp 1s from the subtype descriptions which have been recently posted, I think I've found my type. I had some doubts about my instincts because I know I'm not sx, but I've recently been neglecting both sp and so. I haven't been taking care of practical matters or keeping up with people at all, so all three of the instincts seem like my blind spot. 

At the moment, though, I'm not very healthy, and I didn't want to admit to myself how unhealthy/depressed I am, so I didn't want to take that into account. But I relate to both the unhealthy sp and so descriptions, and not at all to the sx. I think it's a bad idea to think in terms of "I don't take care of myself, so I'm not sp/I have bad social skills, so I'm not so." I was just thinking about how most descriptions say that sp doms are good at taking care of finances, but I don't understand numbers so I could've said I'm not sp on that basis.

I thought that a 1 of all types would take care of their dominant instinct, and when they become unhealthy would probably overdo it. So I guessed an unhealthy sp 1 would probably put themselves on an overly strict diet and get really obsessive about taking care of themselves. I thought I couldn't possibly be an sp 1 because I haven't gone down that path. I've been struggling with 9ish inertia, and I've seriously collapsed into 4.

Despite my neglect of sp and so, I've always remained aware of them. It's been on my mind that I've been doing only the very minimum to take care of myself, and I've hardly been interacting with anyone. Sx, however, is something I've been quite oblivious to. It's something I wish for sometimes but I dismiss it. So rather than considering whether you're good at the three areas, perhaps it would be better to think in terms of what you're aware of.

I think about sp a lot; for example, I take notice of how much sleep I need, and I've noticed that my body seems to need different amounts of sleep at different times of the year. My comfort is one of my priorities. I don't get how some people just don't seem to know their body's limits. There was a time a few years ago when I was even more depressed and unhealthy; I slept too much, but again I always remained aware of sp issues. Same with so, much as I'm being an extreme introvert at the moment I'm interested in people and social issues. I used to think I was sp/sx because I hate small talk, networking, and I want what I would consider to be deep connections, but for me I think it's more of an intellectual thing than the emotional intensity that sx is about. Whenever people here describe sx, I just don't get it. It's something that both fascinates me and makes me feel uncomfortable. I hope this rambly post makes sense.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

LeaT said:


> You type as sp/sx?


When I first got into the instincts, I mean _really_ got into it and not just dismissed them as "crap", I figured myself for sp/sx.

Now, I type as sx/sth...it could be sx/soc or sx/sp. I think of myself as being "social-less", but a lot of the things soc-firsts bring up about that instinct really resonates with me, and I've become painfully aware of being...well, really crappy about sp-things. On the other hand, I think I'm also concerned with sp-stuff, like health and wellness, saving money, etc. And I do fit the sx/sp description of "wanderer". So, I'm just sx-first.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

holyrockthrower said:


> When I first got into the instincts, I mean _really_ got into it and not just dismissed them as "crap", I figured myself for sp/sx.
> 
> Now, I type as sx/sth...it could be sx/soc or sx/sp. I think of myself as being "social-less", but a lot of the things soc-firsts bring up about that instinct really resonates with me, and I've become painfully aware of being...well, really crappy about sp-things. On the other hand, I think I'm also concerned with sp-stuff, like health and wellness, saving money, etc. And I do fit the sx/sp description of "wanderer". So, I'm just sx-first.



You're not SP secondary. I recommend you read the theory again; I have actually done the same recently. You seem to stress out a lot about Sp matters such as health and finances (I've read about it on multiple threads, though I don't recall where), and if you were SP second, you would actually indulge Sp. RH say that the second instinct is where you take a vacation so to speak from the neuroses of the dominant. 

I am pretty sure you're not Sx last. I'd suggest Sp/Sx. Sx/So and mabe So/Sx. But definitely Sx isn't last and Sp isn't secondary for you. 

Don't go by the type+Stack descriptions. They're awful typing tools. Skip those in my resource thread, for strictly typing purposes that is. Read the individual instinct descriptions, and there's good info around pages 11/12 and 13 that references RH seminar notes and Beatrice Chestnut's subtypes. Thanks to a discussion with @kaleidoscope, my interest in instincts has been rekindled, and I've been reading up on some good material. If you are ever up to creating a thread or discussing it on this or in PM, I'll be happy to work with you. Your instincts intrigue me.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

@Boss I have neuroses around each of them, and "blindspots" around each of them. I don't fit the profile of an sp6, though. I'll let you know if I ever start a thread.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

holyrockthrower said:


> @_Boss_ I have neuroses around each of them, and "blindspots" around each of them. I don't fit the profile of an sp6, though. I'll let you know if I ever start a thread.


Anytime.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

holyrockthrower said:


> Well...God, now I feel like a whiner again...I mean it wasn't as awful as it sounds. That pretty much represents the sum of all the bad things that happened throughout my entire childhood. The rest of it was actually fairly positive and happy.


No! Don't feel like a whiner. You're not. I just have certain ideas about how to raise kids, and I just think no child should ever be told what you were. Just for the fact of giving them a complex around their bodies. 

But I'm glad to hear that most of it was a happy childhood. 



> But if you actually felt anti-social, then it wasn't a lie. It was maybe based on sentiment and not your actual experience, but not a lie.


Yes, you are right.  Thank you.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

leafstone said:


> I realized I didn't talk about my relationship with SP and why I also have doubts about it. I've always thought I couldn't be sp last because I worry a lot about my physical safety. Yes, I am that person who annoys everyone in the car until they have their seatbelts on. I avoid doing things that are potentially dangerous, and I am the annoying friend who says, "Wait guys...isn't this a little too dangerous?" Roller coasters have always scared me, I always imagined myself flying out of one (some of you reading this may be laughing, but I am _tiny_, ok? ).
> 
> Comfort is a must for me. I like being comfortable and in order to do some tasks, things have to be just right. I work best (cleaning my room, for example) when there is lots of sunshine coming through the windows. Decoration is important, I want things to feel right, I want my home to be my haven.
> 
> ...


I'm not overly concerned with physical safety. I mean, I'm not a reckless daredevil. I'm actually quite cautious. I just don't worry about it that much. But I need my comfort too. As soon as I get home, the comfy pants go on, my feet go up, I cover up with a blanket (especially now...brrr!), I pour myself a drink, and I just completely relax. The lighting has to be just right, etc. etc. I too want to be healthy, but I love food too much to diet. But I try to do everything in moderation, so I don't become 300 pounds. 



> THIS. This was pretty much me. I'd say I had two close friends, though. I'm from Jersey, and I remember senior year, a few of my friends went to Seaside Heights (now made infamous thanks to Jersey Shore ) for a week or something, yet no one thought of inviting me. It was really weird, because I remember being at the library one morning and they were sitting next to me talking about it/planning it. :/


Yeah, I remember moments like that. I was too prideful to ask if I could come. I saw it as begging, and I would be damned if I were going to stoop for their scraps. 



> Oh, it's catechism! I actually had no idea what it stood for and never thought about looking it up until now. Apparently, it stands for "Confraternity of Christian Doctine". Would you look at that, huh. My parents are Catholic, although they aren't particularly religious. Honestly, I think they just sent me there to get rid of me for a few hours during the weekend.
> 
> My little brother only went up to 2nd grade of CCD until he asked our parents to not go anymore and they were like, "Okay, sure."
> 
> Oh man, I was so pissed because I did all 7 years and had no idea my parents were okay with me not going if I didn't want to. xD


Hahaha, nice. XD I'm not Catholic, so I've never heard catechism called that before. 




> Wish I was that badass.  I developed a few methods of escaping really annoying kids who wouldn't leave me alone at lunch. They were: a) When they put their hands around my mouth (which I HATED), I licked their hands so they could freak out and I could run off; b) Scream REALLY LOUDLY until they left me; c) Scratch and bite. Or dig my nails into their skin.
> 
> They still bothered me, though. :/


All it did for me is gain me a reputation for being crazy, which had its advantages and disadvantages. lol 



> This just made me realize what I wrote might have sounded a bit weird. But I forgot to mention the context! I've been living in Portugal for the past five years, and in Portuguese there is the formal and informal "you" (like in various other languages). While I was raised bilingual, my Portuguese was nowhere near a native's. I always used the informal "you" at home. And while I've gotten much better with my Portuguese here, I still can't quite use "you" correctly. Sometimes I come off as too formal, other times as too informal. I feel like other people in my situation would have picked up on it easier, but for some reason, I have a really hard time.
> 
> So, the lady I'm working for treats me with the informal you, so my instinct is to do the same. In fact, when she first contacted me, that's what I did. But then I realized she was much older than me, and I thought, "Great I've screwed up. Or have I!?!" I'm still not sure. I try to avoid using "you", but you have to conjugate the verbs accordingly, too, so UGH. (I know I can just ask her what she prefers to be called, but...I don't know, I guess I'm too embarrassed? Like, I've let this weird mix go on for so long, I'm embarrassed to ask now...)
> 
> ...


Oohhhh, I understand now. I wouldn't take not getting the formal/informal right to heart. I think if you were raised in an environment or society where the formal/informal distinction is alien, like I was, it's hard to keep them straight. Because it's more than the linguistic distinctions, it really depends on the social context. And if the social context is also unfamiliar, it's hard to judge which to use. It's pretty cool that your boss lets you off easy. XD But with that sort of thing, I would just ask. My need to be accurate in the long run trumps the short-term embarrassment.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Paradigm said:


> I think a lot of "SOC things" I do are for other reasons. I can observe and read people, but it's often for SP reasons (my well-being). I care about my tone and empathy because of superego, because it's wrong of me to hurt others even unintentionally. I'm worried about my place because I want to be certain, which is 6ish.
> 
> I think a big part of SOC-lastness for me is the naivety I have surrounding SOC matters. Why does this stuff matter? Why does everyone else care about it? Why don't they put in effort towards what (I think) really matters? Why does my image need adjusting? Why don't I fit in when I feel like I'm just like everyone else? What do you mean I'm not like most people just because I look different? And so on and so forth.


Yes, I do see this as SOC-last. I feel the same way about SX. These questions that you raise, I understand. But they are much more pointed for me. I thought at many times, why does this SO stuff matter? Why must I adjust myself to meet others' idea of how I should be? I'm not like everyone else, how can I ever find a place? And so on. The difference is, it does matter, but I couldn't tell you why. 



> There's an energy towards SOC most people have that I don't. Even though I might want to engage in SOC at times, I can't, it's extremely exhausting. I care about causes but I lack the energy to help inspire change, since all that change requires knowing how to navigate in a SOC world. (Ex: Wanting to protest, having to find people on your side, having to round them all up, having to influence them, making sure everyone is settled, etc.) Even on a small scale and during no change, I get overwhelmed and wonder why life can't just be more straight-forward. Unhealthier SOC seems so much more complicated than unhealthier SX or SP.


I'm still dealing with this part of SO. Help inspire change? Protest? Influencing? I don't do that. I only have control over myself, and I can only change myself. If someone is espousing ideas that I have a problem with, I will call them out on it, but I have no desire to force them to change their minds. But I'll let them know I think they're wrong. 



leafstone said:


> I think the why of social matters I get, at least in theory. I understand it's important. It still does befuddle me, though. I can relate strongly to the questions I bolded. I feel different from others, but at the same time, I'm not all that different, so why do I fail to fit in?


I'm realizing, in the countersocial aspect of SO in myself, that SO doesn't have to do with "fitting in" per se. I've never really fit in that well either. 



Paradigm said:


> It took me a long time to (partially) understand how my superego works. I noticed that even when I don't care, I still convince myself to put forth the effort of seeming like I do. Obviously I do care sometimes. But a lot of times it's for moralistic reasons, that it's the Right thing. Sometimes it's for selfish reasons, like I'm afraid if I show I don't care, people will not care about me.


This aspect of the superego, I don't relate to. I related to the part of being kind to others, and not intentionally or unintentionally hurting anyone. If I don't care about something, I'm not going to pretend that I do. It's very off-putting to people at times. 



> I may be an "extreme" case, but it's only recently that I started understanding SOC matters. I mean, a few of them I kinda got, but now I feel like I'm more responsive, at least with regular SOC. (_Some _counter-SOC confuses me. Why would anyone actively not fit in? So much effort "wasted" in my eyes, because it's often not a fight to be authentic, it's just a fight to be different.)


Yeah, that "actively not fitting in" thing, I never went for that sort of thing. But I understand it. The actively not fitting in is merely another way of forming their own group. Such people insist that they are so different, but in reality, they just end up finding like-minded people who also think they are so different. The end result is they form a very similar construct from the one they were rejected from. The irony. 



> Though when I say _understand_, I might mean _become aware of_. For example, I would often just brush it off (and quickly forget) when I was told I dressed silly, but now I'm more likely to ask if my outfit is appropriate. In high school, I was quite literally unaware that cliques existed, and I still can't identify them that often. Cliques are actually an odd thing to consider for me, because what some people might consider a group, I usually just consider it friends feeling comfortable around each other but not purposefully excluding others (which might be SOC naivety again).
> 
> I can't even do that, but I have social anxiety/phobia and care about my privacy. I don't really like this about myself either, honestly. SOC seems like something I admire in others when used "properly," assuming I'm correctly identifying it.


In high school, I was highly aware of the cliques, who was part of which one, and the hierarchy of such. However, I wasn't part of any of them. I was the lone wolf and the self-proclaimed jerk, but I have always been a lovable jerk. But with SX and relationships, I was unaware and brushed it off. I have a SX naivety similar to your SO naivety.


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