# Are you a traditionalist?



## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

We all know the stereotypes about how SJs are traditionalists, and I realise you're not all like that, but I'm curious to know what the SJs on this forum are really like. So, would you call yourself a traditionalist? Are there any particular societal customs and traditions that you think are worth keeping, and if so, under what circumstances would you consider changing them?

I'm here only out of curiosity; I'm sick of everyone jumping to conclusions about SJs, so I thought it was worth making a thread to see what you guys think. Also if anyone wants to make any typist comments, please keep them to yourself. Thanks.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

What's your definition of traditionalist?


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Tula13 said:


> What's your definition of traditionalist?


I would say someone who believes in sticking to societal customs and traditional ways of doing things, but really I'm asking whether it's a label you'd be comfortable with for yourself, and whether you think there are any particular traditions that are worth sticking to. I know that's a bit vague but I'm curious to see how you react to it based on your own personal associations, so I don't want to get into my own ideas about it too much.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't consider myself a traditionalist at all. I think there's more than one right answer to life's questions. Customs evolve and change over time as they should.


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## pizzapie (Oct 23, 2012)

No I don't think I'm a traditionalist and it actually bugs me when people are like "oh yeah SJs = traditional." Um, no. So thanks for making this thread 

I think you can be traditional and be of any type. SJs are just more likely. Stereotypes galore.


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## sts06 (Aug 12, 2010)

Nope not at all in the generally understood 'I like traditional values and think society should never, ever change because liberal nonsense is bad' sense of the word. In the 'do I like traditions of my family and feel it's important to keep those and pass them on?' sense, then yeah I do. So, I'm comfortable with the notion that as an SJ I value the things I grew up with and am most at home within circles which support those ideas and that family traditions are very important to me. However, I grew up in a very liberal, open minded home where we didn't go to church, didn't have a conservative view on the world etc and so I actively resent being labelled a 'traditionalist' because people tend to mean by that 'conservative, church going, narrow minded stuck in the mud' none of which I feel I am.


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## pizzapie (Oct 23, 2012)

sts06 said:


> Nope not at all in the generally understood 'I like traditional values and think society should never, ever change because liberal nonsense is bad' sense of the word. In the 'do I like traditions of my family and feel it's important to keep those and pass them on?' sense, then yeah I do. So, I'm comfortable with the notion that as an SJ I value the things I grew up with and am most at home within circles which support those ideas and that family traditions are very important to me. However, I grew up in a very liberal, open minded home where we didn't go to church, didn't have a conservative view on the world etc and so I actively resent being labelled a 'traditionalist' because people tend to mean by that 'conservative, church going, narrow minded stuck in the mud' none of which I feel I am.


I feel the same way about family traditions and valuing the things I grew up with. My parents are both really conservative so I have to bite my tongue when they start talking about politics because I've already butted heads with my mom for saying just slightly non-conservative things...

But yeah I hate being labeled as traditional. It's just a stupid label, like pretty much everything else.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Guess the tone of my post was too much along the lines of "I wanna prove that SJs are not traditionalists" but that's not why I'm here. I want to know what you guys really think, either way. So, I have a few more questions for you:

1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?
2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?
3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.
4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

Octavarium said:


> 1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?


I'm a female. I can't cook. I hate doing house chores. I can only stand few hours with children before I become impatient and yell at them. If one day I have my own family, I want to be the breadwinner while my husband stays at home and take care of the children. 

I love wearing colorful clothes and floral dresses and cute high heels. I listen to Linkin Park everyday and I'm a martial art practitioner.

I don't see people in terms of male and female. I see them in terms of masculine and feminine. Yin and Yang. There are masculine females and feminine males. I don't see anything wrong with that. But I see problems where a lot of masculine females are conforming to the society rules, and falsely seeking for males that are more masculine than them. They fail to see that masculine vs masculine causes imbalance relationship. And when their relationship fail, they blame the males as 'jerks'. 

The same thing goes with feminine males who falsely seeking for females that are more feminine than them, because that's what their society 'teach' them. They hide their true femininity and embrace a false image of masculinity, while looking down on masculine females, calling them 'bitches', because these females can see beyond their masculine mask and therefore they feel 'threatened'. 



Octavarium said:


> 2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?


The moral standards are higher, but somehow it makes people think that their selfishness is justified through the concept of 'human rights freedom'. So there are more selfish and individualistic people as well. These people tried to justify their selfishness by looking down to selfless and conformist people and calling them 'traditionalists' a.k.a 'SJs'.

My moral code is defined through my choice of religion and my culture's philosophies as well as wisdom. I don't absorb all of the principles, of course, only the ones that is make sense to me.



Octavarium said:


> 3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.


The standard of living is higher. Individual opinions are encouraged and respected. People are more aware that sexism and racism is wrong. Technology is advancing and the internet is widespread. We're living in a borderless world. Those are improvements.

It is decline in terms of people's perspective on nudity, porn, sex and relationship. We behave more like animals nowadays. The moral principles are viewed lesser than our animal instincts. People are also more materialistic, consumptive, selfish, and depressed.



Octavarium said:


> 4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?


I think it is important to use our logic, knowledge, and conscience. Before criticizing an authority, or to judge whether or not they should be respected and followed, we should think of the big picture and broader perspectives, and also the type of society it governs. An authority might seem autocratic for us, but it might be what its society actually needs at that time. What you think as right, is not always what actually work for others. There is always another side of a story. 

For example, we think Saddam Hussein was an evil person. And we were glad when he was captured. But take a look at Iraq after his death. Iraq is now divided into many factions, Al-Qaeda is rebuilding in Iraq and has set up training camps for insurgents, ethnic conflicts arise allover the nation, and there is more tension, and significantly greater security force presence. Iraq today is no better than Saddam's era. In many sides, it is even worst.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

So what is this buisness behind labeling you guys 'the guardians'?

I kind of get all the others, but I find the posts here to really lend me to believe its a misnomer. 

How would you say your SJ thought patterns differ from NT/SP/NF in general.


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## WickedQueen (Jun 1, 2009)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> So what is this buisness behind labeling you guys 'the guardians'?
> 
> I kind of get all the others, but I find the posts here to really lend me to believe its a misnomer.
> 
> How would you say your SJ thought patterns differ from NT/SP/NF in general.


It was Keirsey that label the 16 types into SJ, SP, NT, and NF.

MBTI categorizes the 16 types into *Perceiving * (xxxP) and *Judging *(xxxJ). While Jung categorizes them as *Rational *(ExxJ and IxxP) and* Irrational *(ExxP and IxxJ). 

To be honest, I don't really buy Keirsey's theory. A lot of his description sounds bias against SJs.

I think what he means by 'traditional' is based on Si function that is dominant for SJs. It is a cognitive function that works like an instinct, that is build and shaped by internal perspective toward external inputs, especially experience, whether it's direct experience or non direct.

Internal perspective is easier to be shaped and taught on children. Children are flexible and adaptive to its surrounding. Children with Si-dom function can absorb the norms and customs of their environment, faster than other types, and therefore able to quickly adapt to it and adopt them in their lives. 

Add this with their extraverted rational function, which is Te (for STJ) and Fe (for SFJ). Te and Fe are functions that endorse a standardized set of _collective methods_ for evaluating and implementing what is rational. If you add Si with Te/Fe, what you get is a mindset that actively seeking for collective method that is already tested and practically works.

When this childhood norms and customs being internalized, and becomes internal values and principles, Keirsey theorized that it will be use as the basic measures and standards by SJs, especially to perceive and judge the people inside and outside their society. Hence the word '_traditionalist_' came from. 

Since '_traditionalist_' is associated with negative things, such as '_conformist_', '_fundamentalist_', and '_old-fashioned_', Keirsey use the word '_Guardian_' instead. Which perhaps means 'people who guard the traditional/core values of their society'. 

In Keirsey.com, the Guardian (SJs) is define as: "the cornerstone of society, for they are the temperament given to serving and preserving our most important social institutions."

The weakness of Keirsey's theory, in my opinion, is the assumption that the societal values and norms taught on SJ children will strongly internalized and remains unchanged until they die. This is like saying that SJs are brainless robots created by their society, or that SJs do not have sufficient logic to be able to make independent judgement that is _not _influenced by their surroundings.


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## Tula13 (Dec 2, 2012)

Octavarium said:


> 1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?
> 2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?
> 3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.
> 4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?


1. Gender roles are antiquated. Every individual and couple should do what makes the most sense for them. That being said I do hope to stay home with my kids some day when I become a parent. I love cooking and clean and being around kids.

2. Moral code: do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm others, tolerate those who make different choices than you.

3. At least in the US, I think people are a hell of a lot more tolerant than they were a few decades ago. I love that it is now an American value to accept everyone regardless of ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc. There are still bigots, but they're called out as being unacceptable. Modern technology and spread of the internet has brought people and ideas together. 

The bad: American nutrition has gone to hell. People don't cook like they used to, it's all fast food, frozen food, packed lunches, junk food. We're so busy working that making good food is not a priority. Also, American fear-mongering is ridiculous. Our higher education has become unbelievably expensive.

4. I do think it's important to respect authority, I can't really think of a reason other than that's just the way society functions.


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## sts06 (Aug 12, 2010)

*1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?*
I think gender roles are stupid. I do what I want to at any given time, whether it conforms to a stereotyped role or not. I think forcing men to be 'manly providers' and women to be 'feminine home makers' is outdated and people should work out within their own family groupings what works best for them.

*2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?*
I have a strong sense of right and wrong and I have a strong personal moral code. It doesn't line up perfectly with anyone else's, like most people, but it's well developed. Do I think a sense of right and wrong is being lost? No, not on the important things. Though there are people who I feel are too focused on money and things rather than people. That's not strictly 'right' and 'wrong' though - but if I felt that way I'd feel I'd lost my sense of what's right. I think morality in the past was far too rigid and that true morality isn't about what the bible says (or any other outside pressure) but about what is right just because it's right. There were a lot of bible-dictated morals that I think were actively harmful.

*3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.*
It's better now in many ways because people are beginning to accept diversity and tolerate people and attitudes they didn't in the past. The big one I can think of is homosexuality along with attitudes towards sex, marriage and pregnancy. It's no longer considered a 'sin' by most reasonable people (even many devout church goers I know) to be gay, and there's no longer the same stigma towards women who aren't married when they have children. It's not perfect yet - there are still hold outs who judge those things - but it's certainly a better time for personal liberty than it has been in the past.

*4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?*
Generally, yes I do. Authority gives some order to the world and helps make it run smoothly. However, with authority comes responsibilty to the people you're in a position of power over. So there are cases, many of them, where it's important to question authority and in some cases even challenge it. Blind adherence to someone's authority is just silly. We owe it to ourselves to make sure that things are running properly, and that means auditing what authorities are doing to ensure they are still operating with our best interests in mind. I've seen people argue that certain people deserve respect just because they have arbitrary authority and I don't agree with that. A parent isn't automatically deserving of respect, they earn it by the way they treat their children, similarly with governments etc.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Considering that I am a fairly leftist person (considering to go full on marxist) and even before then, I had a quite a lot of non...traditional ideas even if they were mostly libertarian/social darwinist in their practice. If I simply absorbed what the culture around me had, then I would be a fairly boring christian person with moderately right wing views. Why would I care about preserving the traditions around me? Whenever I didn't have a say in what those traditions were? Why should I honestly give a fuck about EXTERNAL VALUE SYSTEMS whenever I am an introvert? Yes. I will admit that I absorb the ideas and values of the people around me. As if I was somewhat spongy, but I am completely capable of having my own views on the world itself. I have no real interest of simply sacrificing myself to the cog of the machine of mankind. Particularly if that machine is corrupt, and not in line with my own ideals in the first place.

I'll say that I am a Jungian Introverted Sensation type, but I am not a guardian of society. I don't give a fuck about that to be honest. I'm fairly a fairly cooperative person, and believe humans and shit are all connected in some sort of weird voodoo hippie way. I am not a responsible person, I am not someone who would sacrifice myself for others if they walked all over me (unless I would get killed), and I am not! A TRADITIONALIST!

Edit: Turns out I do care about outside value systems. Considering that marxism is one lol.


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## SimpleSauropod (Aug 15, 2012)

_*1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?*_

They're malleable. I don't think any one sex should hold a monopoly on a role, and either gender/sex is capable of full-filling them. It totally depends on what the individuals are most comfortable and happy with. As for me, I'm not sure I'd be a very good caregiver despite my type. I'm ok around kids, but clueless about taking care of them and know nothing about cooking or any of the other stereotypical tasks. Plus I want to be independent, so getting and maintaining a job is sort of a requirement there.

_*2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?*_

I think people are too nostalgic about the past. Especially the 50s, where the nuclear family was all the rage. They seem to forget the rampant racism, homophobia, and sexism during those days. They were not all "happy times". I think as a society we've improved a lot in regards to moral and social norms and hope we continue to become more accepting of people's differences. There's still lots of inequality in the world. As for right and wrong? I don't think the world is black and white, lots of shades of gray. To determine if something seems illogical or unfair, I think you need to go by a case by case basis. Lots of things we still don't have very good understanding about it and it'll take awhile to really have informed opinions about controversial subjects.
_*
3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.*_

Socially, I think we have a lot more freedoms and understanding of people nowadays. Education is helping people understand others more and all of the technological advances help people bridge those gaps a lot faster too. Decline? ...economically, I guess. It's natural to get to a stagnant point eventually, and the US was prospering heavily after WW1 and WW2, but I think the US's wars and involvement with other countries is just adding to the debt big time. Also we need to be more economically independent, develop our own factories and stop outsourcing jobs. Less monopolies in business too.

_*4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?*_

Depends on the authority. I'm fine with our current system, but if they ever turned into say China with it's choke-hold control of the public then I wouldn't really respect them. Individual authorities also depends. Where I live I haven't had much problems with the cops, but I've heard some stories describing them as corrupt douche bags. My uncles also a cop too, but maybe he's just one of the few good guys. I've had little problems with teachers and educators, since I've usually got along with them. Over all I think I respect most authority figures because I haven't had much negative experiences with them, but if I ever do that might change. Oh, actually the only one's I probably don't have much respect for are probably politicians. Too many lie and don't respect their promises.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

To be honest, the word "traditionalist" is the one word in the entire ESTJ description that pisses me the hell off. It's a vague word that has been so widely abused by the stereotypes that is really has no concrete meaning anymore. It's just a bunch of connotative nonsense.


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## uberrogo (Sep 15, 2009)

No I don't consider my self traditional. I doubt there really is a traditional way in America. Culture at large seems to lack any real direction anyways, it hard to tell how I should be acting to preserve the culture.

I think tradition is a word meaning that you do things they way you like and that way is usually unchanged or the most part. Beyond that it seems to drift over to the imaginary realm of kings and queens, fighting dragons, people being a certain way that you've really only read in a book, etc. so in summation it is an individualized tradition that no one else actually follows (except by mere coincidence).


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## Mammon (Jul 12, 2012)

WickedQueen said:


> Internal perspective is easier to be shaped and taught on children. Children are flexible and adaptive to its surrounding. Children with Si-dom function can absorb the norms and customs of their environment, faster than other types, and therefore able to quickly adapt to it and adopt them in their lives.


I relate to this. In my childhood years I've had drastic changes happen all the time. From schools, to places to live and ways of life. I was always able to adept aslong as I wasn't shunned by the people I had to live with. For some reason I was always well liked thus never shunned (Although at schools I was mostly ignored and shunned in the early years, but was ok if just left alone).

If I would suddenly be kicked out of the house and had to live on the streets I would be able to adept quickly to this new life style without too much probs. If a war broke out and everything got destroyed, living between the mess, ruins and nature I bet I would still be able to adept quite quickly. 

The only time I would have a hard time would be if morals were to be ignored (stealing, killing, selfishness, etc). And if they were, I would be protecting them. I wouldn't be like 'oh you want to kill him so you can have a bit more place to sleep? He's a good guy but whatever ' Nope. This is WRONG and I WILL stop such a person.

If I'm a traditionalist? I don't care about such a label as long as what I'm doing is what I enjoy doing.


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## fihe (Aug 30, 2012)

*1. What do you think about gender roles? Do you prefer to stick to the role that is traditionally assigned to your gender and, if so, do you think others should do the same?*
well, I cook sometimes but I'm mostly too lazy, and I hate cleaning but I'll do it when I'm just fed up with the mess around me. whenever I do a big cleaning, it's generally on impulse. I'm an ok cook I guess.
* *




one time I cooked for my ex-boyfriend and felt so bad that I burned the food, but it was my first time cooking that food. I used to not make a proper black beans and white jasmine rice, but after having my mom give me advice, I know how to make them well now. however, I find that my methods differ slightly from hers; I use a few tips from the internet that she doesn't use.


I don't think of myself as being particularly feminine; even though I love makeup, I don't have many female friends, I don't like clothes shopping, and I'm generally rather bare-bones when it comes to home decorating. I suppose I don't really like to stay with the traditional role for my gender, but if someone else wants to, that's their choice. actually, I think that having a parent stay home with the children and taking care of the house (not necessarily the mom) would be great for families and society, because parents should spend time with their kids rather than leaving them in daycare all day. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why people bother having kids if they apparently don't have the time for them.

*2. How would you describe your moral code? Do you believe that a sense of right and wrong is being lost? What do you think about the generally accepted moral standards of today as compared to those of the past?*
in general, I believe that if something that one is doing is not hurting someone else, there's nothing wrong. I actually believe that truth is relative, because people have so many different belief systems and religions, and their ideas of right and wrong are not always similar. I think that some moral standards we've adopted are an improvement on the past (i.e. racial and sexual equality), but I think that a lot of parents could stand to be more "old-school" with their kids, rather than trying to be friends with their children.

*3. In what ways has the world improved? In what ways has it declined? This could be over any length of time you are comfortable talking about, say over the last fifty years, or over your lifetime.*
better technology has made it much easier to communicate, and made education accessible to just about everybody. the world has also become worse, however, because some people think that their poor decisions and actions (especially when it comes to the environment) will not have any consequences. corporations have made the smart business decision of obtaining cheaper labor, but at the cost of leaving American workers (and consumers) with no jobs (or money to spend on their products/services), plus their business practices overseas can be exploitative. finally, people like to make a lawsuit out of any little thing nowadays.

*4. Do you think it's important to have respect for authority? Why or why not? Which authorities should or should not be respected?*
absolutely, especially since I'm a substitute teacher and I've had students who just won't listen to me. when I was a kid, I respected my teachers and other adults in school, and I suppose it is just naïve of me to expect that other kids will do the same. I tell them that their poor behavior is disrespectful to me who is trying to help them learn, their fellow students who want to learn, and themselves. I say that everyone from the President to a cashier at Walmart deserves respect. even a real scoundrel should be spoken to civilly, if only so that the person speaking to said scoundrel doesn't make him/herself look bad!


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