# The original 8 function type description as envisioned by Jung



## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I kind of gotten fed up with seeing people label Si as memory, Te as organization, Fi as emotion and other strange function interpretations, so I decided to post Jung's original vision of the functions.

* Extroverted Thinking (ENTJ & ESTJ)* – Jung theorized that people understand the world through a mix of concrete ideas and abstract ones, but the abstract concepts are ones passed down from other people. Extroverted thinkers are often found working in the research sciences and mathematics. *Objective logic.*

* Introverted Thinking (ISTP & INTP)* – These individuals interpret stimuli in the environment through a subjective and creative way. The interpretations are informed by internal knowledge and understanding. Philosophers and theoretical scientists are often introverted thinking-oriented people. *Subjective logic*

* Extroverted Feeling (ENFJ & ESFJ)* – These people judge the value of things based on objective fact. Comfortable in social situations, they form their opinions based on socially accepted values and majority beliefs. They are often found working in business and politics. *Objective ethics.*

* Introverted Feeling (ISFP & INFP)* – These people make judgments based on subjective ideas and on internally established beliefs. Oftentimes they ignore prevailing attitudes and defy social norms of thinking. Introverted feeling people thrive in careers as art critics. *Subjective ethics.*

* Extroverted Sensing (ESFP & ESTP)* – These people perceive the world as it really exists. Their perceptions are not colored by any pre-existing beliefs. Jobs that require objective review, like wine tasters and proofreaders, are best filled by extroverted sensing people. *Objective sensing.*

* Introverted Sensing (ISFJ & ISTJ)* – These individuals interpret the world through the lens of subjective attitudes and rarely see something for only what it is. They make sense of the environment by giving it meaning based on internal reflection. Introverted sensing people often turn to various arts, including portrait painting and classical music. *Subjective sensing.*

* Extroverted Intuitive (ENFP & ENTP)* – These people prefer to understand the meanings of things through subliminally perceived objective fact rather than incoming sensory information. They rely on hunches and often disregard what they perceive directly from their senses. Inventors that come upon their invention via a stroke of insight and some religious reformers are characterized by the extraverted intuitive type. *Objective intuition.*

* Introverted Intuitive (INTJ & INFJ)* – These individuals, Jung thought, are profoundly influenced by their internal motivations even though they do not completely understand them. They find meaning through unconscious, subjective ideas about the world. Introverted intuitive people comprise a significant portion of mystics, surrealistic artists, and religious fanatics. *Subjective intuition.*

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*The introvert & the extrovert:*

*The introvert* is most aware of his or her inner world. While the external world is still perceived, it is not pondered as seriously as inward movement of psychic energy. The introverted attitude is more concerned with subjective appraisal and often gives more consideration to fantasies and dreams.

*The extrovert*, by contrast, is characterized by the outward movement of psychic energy. This attitude places more importance on objectivity and gains more influence from the surrounding environment than by inner cognitive processes.

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*Feeling and Thinking:*

*Feeling* — is the method by which a person understands the value of conscious activity. 
*Thinking* — allows a person to understand the meanings of things. This process relies on logic and careful mental activity.

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*Sensation and intuition* — may seem very similar, but there is an important distinction. Sensation refers to the means by which a person knows something exists and intuition is knowing about something without conscious understanding of where that knowledge comes from.


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

This is really no better. I don't have time at the moment but I'll point out all the issues at a later point.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Octavian said:


> This is really no better. I don't have time at the moment but I'll point out all the issues at a later point.


o.o how is it not better? If you want a more complete explanation I suggest Socionics. Its exactly this just less simple.

Feeling is not emotion or sensitivities or crying after a sad movie, its ethics, values and beliefs. Sensing is not memory or recall, its direct sensory perception with subjective element such as: the sofa is comfy, the colors work well in your dress. Se is without: the sofa is brown, *insert height,*insert other characteristics without personal bent, you need *insert amount of force to move it...etc.

If I state that I'm ENFP based on how sensitive I am I'd be wrong about my type, because Fi is personal ethics and not my emotions. I do not consider myself a sensitive emotional person. Stating that I will not help someone because I consider it an action that will weaken them, by robbing them of the experience I'm actually asserting a personal value (Fi derived) that may not be in line with the consensus value (which is Fe derived). So I'm manifesting Fi preference based on how I relate to said object.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

FreeBeer said:


> *Extroverted Intuitive (ENFP & ENTP)* – These people prefer to understand the meanings of things through subliminally perceived objective fact rather than incoming sensory information. They rely on hunches and often disregard what they perceive directly from their senses. Inventors that come upon their invention via a stroke of insight and some religious reformers are characterized by the extraverted intuitive type. *Objective intuition.*


I think it's more than that


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Chest said:


> I think it's more than that


Continue plz..

o.o you can check Jung's full description of intuition, w8 I'll link it: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/565806.Psychological_Types


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## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

FreeBeer said:


> I kind of gotten fed up with seeing people label Si as memory, Te as organization, Fi as emotion and other strange function interpretations, *so I decided to post Jung's original vision of the functions.*


Except they're not his original vision of the functions, they're half assed, partially incorrect synopses that have a lot of potential to become misleading to those unfamiliar with the topic.



> * Extroverted Thinking (ENTJ & ESTJ)* – Jung theorized that people understand the world through a mix of concrete ideas and abstract ones, but the abstract concepts are ones passed down from other people. Extroverted thinkers are often found working in the research sciences and mathematics. *Objective logic.*


Several issues here. First and foremost, being passed from one to another is not even a requirement for a thing to qualify as being "abstract," for an abstraction is nothing more than a thing that has been removed or extrapolated from it's concrete form. The very process of thinking is a process of abstraction. The word sun is an abstraction of the gaseous ball of heat in outer space. F = G m1m1/r2 is an abstraction of gravity. Your memories are an abstraction of concrete events. Etc.

That sentence is so nonsensical that I'm beginning to wonder if you placed it there by accident. In no way whatsoever is that at all descriptive of Extraverted Thinking. 

What is significant about Te is that it places extreme emphasis on evidence and empirical fact. Central to Te is the notion of falsifiability, through which it proceeds to employ universally applicable methodologies and modes of measurement to the investigation of objects and the relationships between them. The function believes nothing without testing the thing itself, or seeing very clear evidence that implies a specific conclusion. 

Te is in fact, prone to organization and can be identified by such a thing. The key is that it's organization is outwardly expressed. The metric system, taxonomy, administration, etc. It seeks to organize the external world through modes of measurements, methodologies, and constructs that are universally applicable. To be universally applicable, they must be constructed in reference to the empirical reality. Hence Te is best reflected by the epistemological school of empiricism. 



> * Introverted Thinking (ISTP & INTP)* – These individuals interpret stimuli in the environment through a subjective and creative way. The interpretations are informed by internal knowledge and understanding. Philosophers and theoretical scientists are often introverted thinking-oriented people. *Subjective logic*


What is subjective about Ti is that in comparison to Te, it derives knowledge independently of the external environment, and independently of the object as it is (both of which Te would measure and test.) The function essentially believes that there is an underlying logical order to all things and that to discern this order is to discern truth. As such, the function uses pure logic, axiomatic posturing, and deductive reasoning, without any extraneous testing or measurement, to determine what is true and not true.

The subjective factor specifically, is suspicious of the object. To measure and test it is to capture something shallow regarding the whole truth, or to capture something misleading. The function at it's most extreme will regard the object as being deceitful and will completely exclude the objective factor, seeking only to reach the noumenon or 'thing in itself.' Hence it's best represented by the school of rationalism.



> The noumenon is a posited object or event that is known (if at all) without the use of the senses. The term is generally used in contrast with, or in relation to "phenomenon", which refers to anything that appears to, or is an object of, the senses.


The phrase "internal knowledge" is so vague it borders on meaningless. Everything we know is internal and we must process internally to understand things regardless of what functions we use. 



> * Extroverted Feeling (ENFJ & ESFJ)* – These people judge the value of things based on objective fact. Comfortable in social situations, they form their opinions based on socially accepted values and majority beliefs. They are often found working in business and politics. *Objective ethics.*


Objective fact? If anything you would put the phrase under the Te description. 

The feeling function in general concerns itself with harmony and values. Extraverted Feeling specifically, concerns itself more with the harmony of a group, organization, nation, or etc. than it does with the harmony of a specific individual. As such, the relationships between all must be held to a certain standard (that will vary with time period, culture, and location) and each individual will be expected to behave in such a way as to benefit the overall, collective well being. 

Their opinions are not solely based in "accepted values" or "majority beliefs." For just as you have a plethora of ass kissers under this type, you have stubborn revolutionaries and agents of political change that vehemently fought against the "majority beliefs." Whatever Fe presupposes to be right, and what it considers to be right is that which will benefit the greatest good, it will either work to sustain or overthrow the group dynamic at play. What is key regarding this function is that it will tailor it's actions to affect the group and it's harmony, whether it engages a single individual, or the entire group as an aggregate whole.



> * Introverted Feeling (ISFP & INFP)* – These people make judgments based on subjective ideas and on internally established beliefs. Oftentimes they ignore prevailing attitudes and defy social norms of thinking. Introverted feeling people thrive in careers as art critics. *Subjective ethics.*


Too vague but otherwise fine. I would add that Introverted Feeling champions the individual and his/her inner flame. Fe will at times, sacrifice it's own values or try to get others to sacrifice theirs, to benefit the entire group. At base, this is an attempt at creating an environment that will allow coexistence. Fi by contrast, promotes coexistence by literally allowing all to exist side by side no matter how conflicting their values, thoughts, or etc. may be. It's about autonomy, it's own and everyone else's. 



> * Extroverted Sensing (ESFP & ESTP)* – These people perceive the world as it really exists.


Pretty sure that applies to everyone that has eyes, a brain, and that isn't suffering of psychopathy. 



> Their perceptions are not colored by any pre-existing beliefs. Jobs that require objective review, like wine tasters and proofreaders, are best filled by extroverted sensing people. *Objective sensing.*


Let's just go right to Jung:



> this type is the lover of tangible reality, with little inclination for reflection and no desire to dominate. To feel the object, to have sensations and if possible enjoy them – that is his constant aim […] Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it. It cannot be anything except concrete and real conjectures that go beyond the concrete are admitted only on condition that they enhance sensation.


Basically Se perceives the object exactly as it is. Nothing more, and nothing less. There is no room for interpretation, it just is. If it is something that cannot be concretely perceived or experienced, it is dubbed dubious or nonexistent. Extreme realism. It's aim to experience the object in all it's intensity, as fully as it possibly can. 



> * Introverted Sensing (ISFJ & ISTJ)* – These individuals interpret the world through the lens of subjective attitudes and rarely see something for only what it is. They make sense of the environment by giving it meaning based on internal reflection. Introverted sensing people often turn to various arts, including portrait painting and classical music. *Subjective sensing.*


This is the most vapid one of all.

Si is about stabilizing what is perceived in real time by comparing it to a storehouse of past, sensory observations. It is a way of anchoring oneself in a perceptual world that is otherwise chaotic and unpredictable. They make sense of their environment not by giving it "meaning based on internal reflection," which sounds like Fi, but by checking real time perceptions with stored perceptions, opening up options for them.

When Si is shown something new it performs a check of sorts. Because the thing is unfamiliar the function must back track through all that it has stored to see if the thing is dangerous, safe, complimentary, or maybe just different from what they're used to. All the same Si is a function that values security and stability and it is inextricably linked to what it has perceived in the _past._



> * Extroverted Intuitive (ENFP & ENTP)* – These people prefer to understand the meanings of things through subliminally perceived objective fact rather than incoming sensory information. They rely on hunches and often disregard what they perceive directly from their senses. Inventors that come upon their invention via a stroke of insight and some religious reformers are characterized by the extraverted intuitive type. *Objective intuition.*


Of course your function is the only decent one. Source the religious reformers. 



> * Introverted Intuitive (INTJ & INFJ)* – These individuals, Jung thought, are profoundly influenced by their internal motivations even though they do not completely understand them. They find meaning through unconscious, subjective ideas about the world. Introverted intuitive people comprise a significant portion of mystics, surrealistic artists, and religious fanatics. *Subjective intuition.*


Introverted Intuition is inextricably linked to the collective unconscious which is the totality of all human experience and knowledge, inherited by the psyche of each individual. The collective unconscious expresses itself via archetypes, forms that embody specific meanings, information, and the like, central to all human experience and understanding. Through the archetypes the collective unconscious is universally expressed resulting in religions that sound almost exactly alike, eerie similarities between cultures, their practices, and beliefs, the same mathematical and scientific laws being discovered at different times and in different countries, and patterns perpetuating themselves across history. Because we all orient via the same foundation - the collective unconscious - the human condition is ineffably universal with only the slightest of variations inbetween.

Introverted Intuition is especially sensitive to the collective unconscious and orients itself via the archetypes. This happens unconsciously, for the type experiences this as nothing more than subjective, internal imagery of an abstract or surrealist tint. Through the observations of this imagery the Introverted Intuitive finds his/herself certain of things to come. From this arises the "aha!" moments and famed foresight that caused Jung to liken us to the prophets of Israel.

When Ni gains an insight or foresight, it is actually observing external events as falling into an archetype on their own, or funneling Je/Se information through one, allowing their intuition to jump ahead. Imagine the archetypes as being forms or molds. No matter what content you pass through them, the end form will resemble the form of the archetype. Hence once something begins to pass through an archetype, or resemble the form of one, prediction and insight becomes automatic.

What is subjective about Ni is that it does the above all through it's owns _subjective imagery_ that only it (or another Ni dom/aux) can understand.

Where the hell did the bit about religious fanaticism come from? Source it.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Octavian said:


> Several issues here. First and foremost, being passed from one to another is not even a requirement for a thing to qualify as being "abstract," for an abstraction is nothing more than a thing that has been removed or extrapolated from it's concrete form. The very process of thinking is a process of abstraction. The word sun is an abstraction of the gaseous ball of heat in outer space. F = G m1m1/r2 is an abstraction of gravity. Your memories are an abstraction of concrete events. Etc.
> 
> That sentence is so nonsensical that I'm beginning to wonder if you placed it there by accident. In no way whatsoever is that at all descriptive of Extraverted Thinking.
> 
> ...


*
Taken from the Meyer-Briggs foundation:* Extraverted Thinking: Seeks logic and consistency in the outside world. Concern for external laws and rules.

So we agree then. *Te is* simply put *objective logic preference*, nothing more.




> What is subjective about Ti is that in comparison to Te, it derives knowledge independently of the external environment, and independently of the object as it is (both of which Te would measure and test.) The function essentially believes that there is an underlying logical order to all things and that to discern this order is to discern truth. As such, the function uses pure logic, axiomatic posturing, and deductive reasoning, without any extraneous testing or measurement, to determine what is true and not true.
> 
> The subjective factor specifically, is suspicious of the object. To measure and test it is to capture something shallow regarding the whole truth, or to capture something misleading. The function at it's most extreme will regard the object as being deceitful and will completely exclude the objective factor, seeking only to reach the noumenon or 'thing in itself.' Hence it's best represented by the school of rationalism.
> 
> ...


*So Ti is as I said, subjective logic preference,*even according to you.

*Taken from the Meyers-Briggs foundation:* Introverted Thinking: Seeks internal consistency and logic of ideas. Trusts his or her internal framework, which may be difficult to explain to others.




> Objective fact? If anything you would put the phrase under the Te description.
> 
> The feeling function in general concerns itself with harmony and values. Extraverted Feeling specifically, concerns itself more with the harmony of a group, organization, nation, or etc. than it does with the harmony of a specific individual. As such, the relationships between all must be held to a certain standard (that will vary with time period, culture, and location) and each individual will be expected to behave in such a way as to benefit the overall, collective well being.
> 
> Their opinions are not solely based in "accepted values" or "majority beliefs." For just as you have a plethora of ass kissers under this type, you have stubborn revolutionaries and agents of political change that vehemently fought against the "majority beliefs." Whatever Fe presupposes to be right, and what it considers to be right is that which will benefit the greatest good, it will either work to sustain or overthrow the group dynamic at play. What is key regarding this function is that it will tailor it's actions to affect the group and it's harmony, whether it engages a single individual, or the entire group as an aggregate whole.


The idea of freedom for example is a majority belief, any social values such as male-female equality, democracy etc.. are majority beliefs by consensus. It is objective fact that people value freedom for example. Since Fe is object focused it inevitably gravitates toward that kind of objective ethics processing like in the independence day speech...bleah. In fact almost every time a politician opens his/her moth, they make use of this function. Stubborn revolutionaries still employ the same cognition, they have to appeal to an audience after all and the revolutionary audience is exactly the same as the majority belief. By majority they believe/value their revolutionary ideals.

*Example of Fe:*






So in the end you and I do agree that* Fe is Objective Ethics*.

Taken from the Meyers-Briggs foundation: Extraverted Feeling: Seeks harmony with and between people in the outside world. Interpersonal and cultural values are important.
*
So yeah Fe is not emotion or sentimentalism as a lot of people tend to think.*




> Too vague but otherwise fine. I would add that Introverted Feeling champions the individual and his/her inner flame. Fe will at times, sacrifice it's own values or try to get others to sacrifice theirs, to benefit the entire group. At base, this is an attempt at creating an environment that will allow coexistence. Fi by contrast, promotes coexistence by literally allowing all to exist side by side no matter how conflicting their values, thoughts, or etc. may be. It's about autonomy, it's own and everyone else's.
> 
> Pretty sure that applies to everyone that has eyes, a brain, and that isn't suffering of psychopathy.


Ok, here I will have to correct slightly.. Fi is relational ethics, meaning how I the subject relate to the object (the external). This results in attitudes, beliefs, values that are highly subjective/personal and possibly not in line with the user's enviroment. In recognizing that others may do the same the Fi user has a certain degree of tolerance, but that only goes so far. I will in no way tolerate severe transgression against my personal values, this often results in arguing, moralizing and zealous behavior in defending my values.

Counter culture would be a Fe thing, Fi is kind of different, its just the individual standing against everything if it has to for their personal value in a "I don't give a shit, this is what I think!" way. I am more likely to shut up then to bend a knee and agree against a value of mine. Fi does in no way foster group cohesion and this is the reason why Fe users kinda consider Fi users selfish.










*Taken from the Meyers-Briggs foundation:* Introverted Feeling: Seeks harmony of action and thoughts with personal values. May not always articulate those values.

*^^ again, Fi is not emotion or sentimentalism or how emotionally sensitive someone is, but many people see it from this twisted perspective and type themselves Fi dom, but when pressed they may be spineless regarding their own values.*

*Example of Fi:*













> Let's just go right to Jung:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically Se perceives the object exactly as it is. Nothing more, and nothing less. There is no room for interpretation, it just is. If it is something that cannot be concretely perceived or experienced, it is dubbed dubious or nonexistent. Extreme realism. It's aim to experience the object in all it's intensity, as fully as it possibly can.


Yeah, pure objective Sensing. So we agree.





> This is the most vapid one of all.
> 
> Si is about stabilizing what is perceived in real time by comparing it to a storehouse of past, sensory observations. It is a way of anchoring oneself in a perceptual world that is otherwise chaotic and unpredictable. They make sense of their environment not by giving it "meaning based on internal reflection," which sounds like Fi, but by checking real time perceptions with stored perceptions, opening up options for them.
> 
> When Si is shown something new it performs a check of sorts. Because the thing is unfamiliar the function must back track through all that it has stored to see if the thing is dangerous, safe, complimentary, or maybe just different from what they're used to. All the same Si is a function that values security and stability and it is inextricably linked to what it has perceived in the _past._


 here is where I will absolutely disagree. Si is sensing, meaning that it only concerns itself with sensory data. When I'm out in the world as a Ne dom I tend to interpret everything by its function and build a map of interconnected functions. I remember the layout in a very general and global way. I seem to be able to learn only in this way as well. I have ran up a specific staircase for years now and I still fail to remember any details about it because I naturally omit paying attention to sensory input in detail, which is what Si does.

T*he difference between Si & Se is that Se is absolute realism, meaning it perceives reality as it is, no bias, while Si has a personal bias component attached. This results in the Si user perceiving a room not as it is, but as it impacts the Si user personally (this is why Fi is often confused with Si).* *MBTI imo is wrong about Si, it only leads to remembering sensory detail as experienced by the subject, it is not universal so that a Si user would remember anything else like names dates and so on, just sensory detail.*

*So yeah I disagree on Si. I think its badly interpreted, people often ignore that it is SENSING. Se will remember exact sensory details, while Si will remember the impression along with the details. I don't know if you as Ni dom will understand the subjective impackt of the enviroment, such as "This room feels so sterile, like a hospital. How can you live here!? thewalls are all white along witht the furniture...".
*


> Of course your function is the only decent one. Source the religious reformers.


 idk, I don't give a damn about religion and I'm a Ne dom, in principle I can see how thou, but I lack the Fe required to appeal to people and my internal evaluation of theism and atheism is that they are not something worth ascribing to period. Spirituality is preferable if its subjective enough and I don't give a shit about what others think regarding this, their Fe consensus values are not mine & the logic behind atheism is still faulty, the conclusion a probability at best.





> Introverted Intuition is inextricably linked to the collective unconscious which is the totality of all human experience and knowledge, inherited by the psyche of each individual. The collective unconscious expresses itself via archetypes, forms that embody specific meanings, information, and the like, central to all human experience and understanding. Through the archetypes the collective unconscious is universally expressed resulting in religions that sound almost exactly alike, eerie similarities between cultures, their practices, and beliefs, the same mathematical and scientific laws being discovered at different times and in different countries, and patterns perpetuating themselves across history. Because we all orient via the same foundation - the collective unconscious - the human condition is ineffably universal with only the slightest of variations inbetween.
> 
> Introverted Intuition is especially sensitive to the collective unconscious and orients itself via the archetypes. This happens unconsciously, for the type experiences this as nothing more than subjective, internal imagery of an abstract or surrealist tint. Through the observations of this imagery the Introverted Intuitive finds his/herself certain of things to come. From this arises the "aha!" moments and famed foresight that caused Jung to liken us to the prophets of Israel.
> 
> ...


o.o yeah, which is what I said, so why do we have to elaborate and complicate things?



> Where the hell did the bit about religious fanaticism come from? Source it.


Its basically how Jung explained it, the examples he gave. I'd say Ni is more of a time intuition where in short the user makes use of past events connecting to present ones, spots the patterns and recognizes the future implications all subjectively in the subconscious. Its the subconscious perception of how events unfold over time, you have a gut feeling about something because you subconsciously spotted a pattern and your brain understands the implications of it, but you aren't fully aware where it come from or how you figured it out.

*It seems to me that we only disagree on Si & I found your idea of how peaceful Fi actually is a bit not in line with reality.*


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## Kebachi (May 27, 2014)

I like buttons


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