# The Enneagram and mental health



## xxcolx (Apr 19, 2021)

Hello Im an ENTP 8w7, Does anyone realize a correlation with mental health and mood swings with the enneagram (type 8 in particular), I was diagnosed with a mood swing disorder and I feel like it contributes to my type. I have a mood disorder which makes me hypomanic and a bit uncontrollable at times (Bipolar type 2) that exacerbates my normal behaviour which is already truculent, so at times I am overly aggressive, confrontational and angry. its not permanent since its slowly but surely subsiding with medication but I want know if this is something you guys could know something about. Before I got diagnosed I was still combative but not as much as I am now. Do you guys think there is a correlation with mood health and the enneagram especially type 8?


----------



## fishflutter (Mar 14, 2021)

Hi! I definitely think so. I have a very different type- I’m a type 9w1. But I think my example is pretty good to relate to yours, so I’ll share it if that’s ok!! I mistook myself to be a type 4w5 for the longest time, even though I’m not even really an “individualist” and have no desire to be unique. I thought that the melancholy feelings I had were natural, that I was a type 4 as I wallowed in misery all the time- I thought that was my natural state. But I was wrong. I’d been facing chronic depression for so long that I didn’t even realise or acknowledge that my being down all the time and focusing on the negative parts of life was abnormal. I didn’t know I was depressed. I was wrong, and misunderstood type 4s as well- it is so much more than being sad and miserable! I also felt “out of place” and “different“ but that was a result of loneliness and isolation as well as childhood experiences. I’m actually pretty far from a real type 4. In this period of my life, I was also extremely irritable and anxious- I feared almost everything and I clung onto people, possessions and relationships with no end, pushing people away by doubting everything and everyone, and constantly questioning even the smallest things. So the next type I thought I was a type 6! 

Turns out, the Enneagram is built in a way to show your paths of “integration“ (during times when you are strong and evolve your character in a better path) and “disintegration“ (Times of stress and negativity when you break down). 

Here is the diagram: 










As you can see, the types begin to act like different types under integration (growth) and disintegration (stress). For example: 

- Type 9 goes to type 6 under stress (becomes anxious, fearful, irritable, passive aggressive) and type 3 in growth (motivated, less sloth-like, energetic). I relate to this, not really to the growth/ stress of type 4. I change drastically. 

-Likewise, type 8- goes to 5 under stress (becomes trapped inside own thoughts, withdraws and retreats, internalized and isolated). Goes to 2 in growth (becomes kind, compassionate, forgiving, protective of others). Do you relate to this? 

I need to tell you, though, that bipolar II is a mental health condition just like depression, anxiety and many others. Yes, it affects your mood, which could be reflected in the changes above that I’ve just described. But ultimately, I don;t know your experience fully. With type 8s, especially, it‘s difficult- anger is not all there is to a type 8, just like misery isn’t all what a type 4 is. A good way to see if your enneagram type is really your type is to see your core fear: 

Which of these is closest to yours?









I’ve laid out the basics and hopefully it’s giving you an idea. To summarise it: 

-Read up on the paths of integration/ disintegration: Enneagram Types Under Stress - Enneagram Explained (this one is just on disintegration though). Which do you think most reflects you? Mood health definite;y causes stress and growth so this is important.

-Core fears/ desires- which one is closest to yours? 

-Make sure to consider more than one enneatype


Leat me know if you need clarification, or if you want to share more information or ask questions!


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

fishflutter said:


> Hi! I definitely think so. I have a very different type- I’m a type 9w1. But I think my example is pretty good to relate to yours, so I’ll share it if that’s ok!! I mistook myself to be a type 4w5 for the longest time, even though I’m not even really an “individualist” and have no desire to be unique. I thought that the melancholy feelings I had were natural, that I was a type 4 as I wallowed in misery all the time- I thought that was my natural state. But I was wrong. I’d been facing chronic depression for so long that I didn’t even realise or acknowledge that my being down all the time and focusing on the negative parts of life was abnormal. I didn’t know I was depressed. I was wrong, and misunderstood type 4s as well- it is so much more than being sad and miserable! I also felt “out of place” and “different“ but that was a result of loneliness and isolation as well as childhood experiences. I’m actually pretty far from a real type 4. In this period of my life, I was also extremely irritable and anxious- I feared almost everything and I clung onto people, possessions and relationships with no end, pushing people away by doubting everything and everyone, and constantly questioning even the smallest things. So the next type I thought I was a type 6!
> 
> Turns out, the Enneagram is built in a way to show your paths of “integration“ (during times when you are strong and evolve your character in a better path) and “disintegration“ (Times of stress and negativity when you break down).
> 
> ...


I have been depressed since I was 13, I can't identify with Type 9 at all. I identify with 4w5, but it still doesn't describe my problems very well..

honestly, I don't think the enneagram helps depressed people. many people in the community tend to be even sarcastic about the suffering of others.

research on Aaron Beck, he noticed a pattern of thoughts and cognitive distortions in his patients. This resembles type 4 and 6 more than 9 (it is a type low in neuroticism).


----------



## fishflutter (Mar 14, 2021)

aurora-rosa said:


> I have been depressed since I was 13, I can't identify with Type 9 at all. I identify with 4w5, but it still doesn't describe my problems very well..
> 
> honestly, I don't think the enneagram helps depressed people. many people in the community tend to be even sarcastic about the suffering of others.
> 
> research on Aaron Beck, he noticed a pattern of thoughts and cognitive distortions in his patients. This resembles type 4 and 6 more than 9 (it is a type low in neuroticism).


Oh sorry! That’s not what I really meant at all- it’s different for everyone. Not all people facing depression feel like Type 9- in fact, type 9 was what I found after realising I had depression and began treatment. (Actually, I mentioned I identified more with type 4 and 6! matches your information on Aaron beck) 

Here: 



fishflutter said:


> I mistook myself to be a type 4w5 for the longest time, even though I’m not even really an “individualist” and have no desire to be unique. I thought that the melancholy feelings I had were natural, that I was a type 4 as I wallowed in misery all the time- I thought that was my natural state.





fishflutter said:


> I was also extremely irritable and anxious- I feared almost everything and I clung onto people, possessions and relationships with no end, pushing people away by doubting everything and everyone, and constantly questioning even the smallest things. So the next type I thought I was a type 6!


Of course, you can be those types and NOT face depression, and you can be those types and face depression too- depression is a mental health condition that can affect pretty much anyone of any type.

This was just my personal experience with depression- I was talking about the ”mood health” aspect of it, relating to the parent question, and not depression in general. Depression can bring (for some) extreme feelings of melancholy, which it did for me, causing me to think that was “normal” and that I was another type than I really was. I was also depressed from a really young age (and I still do have it but it is much better now), so I couldn’t really remember what ti was like to be properly at peace and happy, and not feel apathetic. Of course different people face different experiences so I promise I’m not generalising in any way. 




aurora-rosa said:


> honestly, I don't think the enneagram helps depressed people. many people in the community tend to be even sarcastic about the suffering of others.


The enneagram doesn't help, nor does any form of personality typing. It is horrible of people who are sarcastic about it, because it is something that should be taken very seriously. With depression, it’s easy to not really identify as any type as it can make you feel very out of touch with yourself. I am sorry for your experiences with it and if anyone has ever not taken it seriously for you. 

My personal answer was an example to help @xxcolx on “mood health“ and the enneagram- because mental health conditions do affect your mood which leads to what can feel like enneagram changes. Hopefully that’s understandable and I’m sorry if I’ve upset anyone in any way!!


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

fishflutter said:


> depression is a mental health condition that can affect pretty much anyone of any type.


Not exactly. Depression is in most cases genetic, a personality trait that is prone to it is called "Inhibited temperament" (or Social Inhibition). It is observed from childhood and even exists in animals.

the problem with Enneagram is that by saying that "any type can have depression", it means that a person with depression will not know the cause of his having this problem.

and don't get me wrong, my problem is not with you. My problem is with them. Not with the authors of enneagram, but with some sites (I prefer not even to say the name of the site), that only speak ignorance about people, although they think they understand the human mind.

It is important that people know the real cause of depression for parents to prevent their children from developing depression and anxiety in adolescence.


----------



## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

Practical advice:

Stop consuming sugar. Eat more fruits, they will prevent you from consuming refined sugar.

Ride a bike.

Start running.

Meditate before bed and after waking up to decrease neuroticism levels.

I know these things may seem simple, but it really helps ..

If you believe in God, pray for him to heal you from this disease.


----------



## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

fishflutter said:


> Hi! I definitely think so. I have a very different type- I’m a type 9w1. But I think my example is pretty good to relate to yours, so I’ll share it if that’s ok!! I mistook myself to be a type 4w5 for the longest time, even though I’m not even really an “individualist” and have no desire to be unique. I thought that the melancholy feelings I had were natural, that I was a type 4 as I wallowed in misery all the time- I thought that was my natural state. But I was wrong. I’d been facing chronic depression for so long that I didn’t even realise or acknowledge that my being down all the time and focusing on the negative parts of life was abnormal. I didn’t know I was depressed. I was wrong, and misunderstood type 4s as well- it is so much more than being sad and miserable! I also felt “out of place” and “different“ but that was a result of loneliness and isolation as well as childhood experiences. I’m actually pretty far from a real type 4. In this period of my life, I was also extremely irritable and anxious- I feared almost everything and I clung onto people, possessions and relationships with no end, pushing people away by doubting everything and everyone, and constantly questioning even the smallest things. So the next type I thought I was a type 6!
> 
> Turns out, the Enneagram is built in a way to show your paths of “integration“ (during times when you are strong and evolve your character in a better path) and “disintegration“ (Times of stress and negativity when you break down).
> 
> ...


Hm, interesting.

This was actually what I used to conclude that I was a 1 instead of a 5. While both core fears resonate, the 5 fears really derive themselves from 1 fears in my case.


----------



## xxcolx (Apr 19, 2021)

fishflutter said:


> -Likewise, type 8- goes to 5 under stress (becomes trapped inside own thoughts, withdraws and retreats, internalized and isolated). Goes to 2 in growth (becomes kind, compassionate, forgiving, protective of others). Do you relate to this?


Yes I can definitely relate to this I'm pretty sure I'm a type 8 since my preteens. Its just that once I got diagnosed, it started amplifying certain traits, I think even before my diagnoses, my temperaments and genetics played a role since my mother is on the stressed/reactive side, shes a definite 8. Since my bipolar was induced and subsides with medication, I am hopeful that it will eventually be unnecessary for me to take the mood stabilizer and I will be back to my normal state.




fishflutter said:


> I’ve laid out the basics and hopefully it’s giving you an idea. To summarise it:
> 
> -Read up on the paths of integration/ disintegration: Enneagram Types Under Stress - Enneagram Explained (this one is just on disintegration though). Which do you think most reflects you? Mood health definite;y causes stress and growth so this is important.
> 
> ...


When I'm in hypomania or the upside of bipolar, im extremely engaged and over extended and I may look like a 2 (just a bit more zealous) and when I'm on the downside I tend to isolate myself a lot and go into 5 and become a bit antisocial/isolated (very blatant). So I think in a way my type plays into the disorder in a weird way, thats not to say all 8s are bipolar, its just that with me exaggerated. and it somehow plays into the type. But before the diagnoses the traits were there just much more toned down, and as of now they are almost back to normal due to the medication and its healing affects.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## fishflutter (Mar 14, 2021)

aurora-rosa said:


> Not exactly. Depression is in most cases genetic, a personality trait that is prone to it is called "Inhibited temperament" (or Social Inhibition). It is observed from childhood and even exists in animals.
> 
> the problem with Enneagram is that by saying that "any type can have depression", it means that a person with depression will not know the cause of his having this problem.
> 
> ...


Yep, of course! I apologise if I’ve seemed ignorant. I didn’t mean depression was purely situational that could affect anyone- it was poorly worded of me, what I meant was it is possible for someone to be a type 2, or 5, or 7 and have depression- but yes, it is more likely in some types than others. I just meant it shouldn’t be an absolute defining point for your type, but it much more likely in some temperaments with others.


----------



## yubih (Apr 12, 2021)

I was diagnosed with bipolar type II and from my late teens on, when I just approached enneagram and when the symptoms started showing up, I thought I was an 8 due to the hypomanic episodes that made me really aggressive at times
Then one year ago I was put under a medicine that caused me to be in a constant state of dysthymia. I believed I was a 9 at the time because I just felt no emotion but a deep apathy and I didn't want to do anything, just went along with everything everyone else wanted me to do, because I just had no motivation. I consider I might be a type 4, but a 4 has deep emotions and desires and is very self-aware, right? I couldn't be that and just thought I was a very unhealthy 9
Then again in December I was put on some new meds that worked really well this time, and I've felt like myself as I haven't in a long time. My emotions came back, and I felt I went back to who I was before my mental health completely went to shit. When I look back at my childhood (which I finally remember, I've been disconnected to it for a long time), my early teens, and the periods of "normalcy" that happened between a depressive episode and an hypomanic one, type 4 is definitely the one that makes the most sense for me. I've always struggled with identity and finding personal significance and I definitely don't have the positive outlook on life that 9s have


----------



## fishflutter (Mar 14, 2021)

yubih said:


> I was diagnosed with bipolar type II and from my late teens on, when I just approached enneagram and when the symptoms started showing up, I thought I was an 8 due to the hypomanic episodes that made me really aggressive at times
> Then one year ago I was put under a medicine that caused me to be in a constant state of dysthymia. I believed I was a 9 at the time because I just felt no emotion but a deep apathy and I didn't want to do anything, just went along with everything everyone else wanted me to do, because I just had no motivation. I consider I might be a type 4, but a 4 has deep emotions and desires and is very self-aware, right? I couldn't be that and just thought I was a very unhealthy 9
> Then again in December I was put on some new meds that worked really well this time, and I've felt like myself as I haven't in a long time. My emotions came back, and I felt I went back to who I was before my mental health completely went to shit. When I look back at my childhood (which I finally remember, I've been disconnected to it for a long time), my early teens, and the periods of "normalcy" that happened between a depressive episode and an hypomanic one, type 4 is definitely the one that makes the most sense for me. I've always struggled with identity and finding personal significance and I definitely don't have the positive outlook on life that 9s have


Yep- if type 4 is what you identified with throughout, if personal significance and identity are at the root of your struggle, if you desire to be authentic and find your true self- you’re a 4! 

It;s difficult, but childhood/ normlacy and your core fears/ desires during those times are always a good place to start.


----------



## xxcolx (Apr 19, 2021)

yubih said:


> I was diagnosed with bipolar type II and from my late teens on, when I just approached enneagram and when the symptoms started showing up, I thought I was an 8 due to the hypomanic episodes that made me really aggressive at times
> Then one year ago I was put under a medicine that caused me to be in a constant state of dysthymia. I believed I was a 9 at the time because I just felt no emotion but a deep apathy and I didn't want to do anything, just went along with everything everyone else wanted me to do, because I just had no motivation. I consider I might be a type 4, but a 4 has deep emotions and desires and is very self-aware, right? I couldn't be that and just thought I was a very unhealthy 9
> Then again in December I was put on some new meds that worked really well this time, and I've felt like myself as I haven't in a long time. My emotions came back, and I felt I went back to who I was before my mental health completely went to shit. When I look back at my childhood (which I finally remember, I've been disconnected to it for a long time), my early teens, and the periods of "normalcy" that happened between a depressive episode and an hypomanic one, type 4 is definitely the one that makes the most sense for me. I've always struggled with identity and finding personal significance and I definitely don't have the positive outlook on life that 9s have


I can understand the mistyping since it happened very early on in your childhood, it happened to me recently so I can look at myself before this period and I can accurate remember how I was like and Im pretty sure I was an 8 way before that. Its just that the mood swings really exaggerate certain traits and the 8 traits for me get amplified to a whole new level. I think 4s and 8s have similar very similar core fears but very different desires. I have a 4 gf and she reminds me of myself sometimes when she gets angry. Anyway I wish you the best and I hope you get well soon. Also if I might add, what medication is working for you as of now? Im on depakene (Depacon/Stavzor) and its working perfectly except for the fact that it makes you hungry like all the time.


----------



## yubih (Apr 12, 2021)

xxcolx said:


> Also if I might add, what medication is working for you as of now? Im on depakene (Depacon/Stavzor) and its working perfectly except for the fact that it makes you hungry like all the time.


I'm on quetiapine. The first weeks I took it it seemed to make me really tired, now it doesn't anymore and I didn't really notice any big side effects


----------



## barmaley (Aug 30, 2020)

I work in a hospital, and for me, it's essential to keep my mental health balanced. That's why I go to yoga, and I meditate every day. Anyway, my work became more manageable because we started to use Cloud Based Allied Health Practice Management Platform, Allied Health Software | iinsight. It's straightforward to keep all your medical records in one place. This app lets you share your medical records with doctors and insurance companies without ever leaving the app. All you have to do is log in with your medical credentials and identify the doctors you want to share information with, all in one place.


----------



## ESFJMouse (Oct 13, 2020)

I can't comment on this (correlations) much... but since others are talking about treatments/medications I thought I would say that artifical sweetners and caffeine are very hard for people with anxiety or depression etc. etc. Also, phenylalanine, is in gum and sodas like diet coke and I think it is a major anxiety trigger for many people. I used to easily drink 3 diet cokes a day. Or an iced coffee, or several iced green teas. It is amazing how when you remove these how your mood improves a lot. I have also heard the Whole 30 diet helps with anxiety a LOT, I would like to test. I wish everyone well in feeling better.


----------



## alexstrem (Sep 23, 2021)

Hi, my story is so familiar that I was also diagnosed with a mood disorder, which can sometimes be uncontrollable and aggressive. And I wanted to fix it, as I could say something ugly to my family in some moments. Of course, I had been prescribed medication, but medicine should work together with therapy, as everyone knows. Because of this, I began to look for a specialist who could help me and came across one of the forums on the site Betterhelp Reviews 2021: Is it a Right Counseling? Customer Reviews. I looked at the reviews and seemed optimistic; I decided to write to them; let's see what will come.


----------

