# People looking down on electronic music genre



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Why does this happen too often? People like to often bash on electronic music but don't seem to have a clue about how diverse electronic music genre is or how much effort and classical music inspirations were put into some of them.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

To me it's just electronic noises. Some of it wouldn't be classified as music. To be music you have to have vocal, instrumental, or both to produce harmony and express emotion. Some electronic music can be defined as music but things like dubstep and trap wouldn't be classified as music. All it has is a beat and some irritating noises. Most of it is created on a computer which should be IMHO frowned upon. I'm sure it takes some effort to do on a computer but that doesn't mean anything. Btw I don't hear any classical music inspirations, just garbage.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Because people are idiots. And many dogmatically cling to the past; unaware often that electronically produced music has existed even before blues music has. But at the end of the day, all music is just _sound_, how it is produced should be irrelevant. It should either be good or not good, which at the end of the day is of course subjective.

Then, people also frown upon the fact that a lot of it is just "to dance to"; well firstly, I listen to "dance music" in my spare time. I happen to be listening to an artist called Gesloten Cirkel at the moment, who mainly produces retro acid, techno an electro. Secondly, dancing has been a glue that kept society together since the dawn of humanity. Don't understimate the importance of dance in culture.

The "effort" argument falls flat on its face too. Any music can be made as difficult or as simply as possible. Not that it matters, though. A lot of instrument based music can be simple. Besides, making electronic music requires you to be well versed in sound design, processing, mixing down, songwriting, drumprogramming, etc.

As someone who played guitar in bands but transitioned to electronic music production; I find producing electronic music more of a mental thing whereas playing guitar is more physical. Not that there isn't overlap, but these are inclinations.

A lot of the criticism is aimed at the _performance aspect_, which is said to be lacking in electronic music. But for most of history, the composer or writer did not have to necessarily be the performer either. That was only standardized by the Beatles. But even that doesn't make sense. If it comes down to quality; wouldn't it be better to get the best performer and the best writer to collaborate? And if this just happens to be the same person, then ok? But yeah, is an ensemble performing a piece by Bach not a legitemate group of musicians because they didn't write it? Is a composer composing a piece of music for instruments he doesn't play a legitemate composer?

There's also the "emotion" argument that nauseates me. ALL music is devoid of emotion, because all music is just sound. It just frequencies vibrating in air. There's nothing more inherently emotional about an acoustic instrument. It's just, people feel something when they listen to music that is meaningful to them, but then they project that emotion onto the music as if it's a part of the music itself. But it's not, it's an interpretation.

Also, if you're listenign to digital files, all the music you're listening to is essentially 0s and 1s too.

I could go on and on, but it's just people being stupid and their dogmatic and outdatec beliefs will go the way of witch hunting within the next 50 years; remembered as a sad episode of humanity where we romanticized the limitations of the past.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

Indiana Solo said:


> To me it's just electronic noises. Some of it wouldn't be classified as music. To be music you have to have vocal, instrumental, or both to produce harmony and express emotion.


This doesn't really apply to electronic music in particular, other than the fact that a lot of electronic music lacks vocals... but so does a lot of classical music or jazz, as well as countless other genres. Also, whether or not something "expresses emotion" is completely subjective: maybe it does nothing for you, and that's fine, but I can assure you that electronic music can and does affect people emotionally so your point is moot.

Harmonically, I don't think you can say anything that couldn't also be said for other genres. Electronic music comprises a very wide range of musical styles and in terms of harmonic complexity they range from extreme minimalism to super dense or intentionally dissonant music. This is true for many genres, and a lack of complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing BTW -- sometimes less is more. If a lack of complexity would be problematic, we should also shun blues and rock & roll, since that mostly sticks to minor pentatonic scales over a I-IV-V chord progression. That's not exactly rocket science.



> Most of it is created on a computer which should be IMHO frowned upon. I'm sure it takes some effort to do on a computer but that doesn't mean anything.


This is a nonsensical argument because music is about the experience of the listener, not the amount of effort it took to make it. 

Besides, it's not even that much more difficult to play rock. Literally any idiot can learn to play the guitar (source: I'm an idiot who plays the guitar) and some of the greatest tunes of all time were played by people who didn't really excel at their instrument. Look at the Beatles: Paul was a good bass player but certainly no virtuoso, and the rest were okay at best -- competent but far from great.

Instruments can make sounds that we can't make with our bodies, but that's literally the only reason they exist, and computer-based instruments are just a continuation of that process. Playing any instrument means that a cognitive translation is required between the sounds we intend to make and the actual sound itself, which is where the skill comes into play, but the way I see it this skill is merely an obstacle to be overcome rather than something to be admired in and of itself, and the easier this process is, the better. Either way, the hardest part of making music is coming up with the idea for a song, and neither a computer nor physical skill can do that for you. Look at all the guitar shredders who can play 4000 notes per minute but couldn't think a good melody to save their life.



> Btw I don't hear any classical music inspirations, just garbage.


The first electronic musicians were avant-garde classical composers.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Cephalonimbus said:


> This doesn't really apply to electronic music in particular, other than the fact that a lot of electronic music lacks vocals... but so does a lot of classical music or jazz, as well as countless other genres. Also, whether or not something "expresses emotion" is completely subjective: maybe it does nothing for you, and that's fine, but I can assure you that electronic music can and does affect people emotionally so your point is moot.
> 
> Harmonically, I don't think you can say anything that couldn't also be said for other genres. Electronic music comprises a very wide range of musical styles and in terms of harmonic complexity they range from extreme minimalism to super dense or intentionally dissonant music. This is true for many genres, and a lack of complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing BTW -- sometimes less is more. If a lack of complexity would be problematic, we should also shun blues and rock & roll, since that mostly sticks to minor pentatonic scales over a I-IV-V chord progression. That's not exactly rocket science.
> 
> ...


I know classical music and some jazz don't have vocals. I said you have to have either instrumental, vocals, or both. Which dubstep and trap have neither and I'm not counting the computer as an instrument. I guess you could say electronic music (I'm mainly talking about dubstep and trap) have harmony but it's complete nonsense it's unstructured. I'm not saying rock and roll music is anything complex but it's not nonsense and it's music it has vocals it has melody. I guess you could say electronic music is music but it's of the lowest form of music. It's the low point of music so far. 

Playing rock completely depends on the songs. Yes the beatles and ACDC have some pretty easy songs but as rock and roll got out of the 70s it got progressively harder to play with songs like Eruption by Van Halen. Some of rock is not rocket science they have scales and shit but dubstep and trap don't have scales or chords. I'm still not counting computers as instruments because computers soul purposes aren't to create music. That'd be the app's purpose. But the app isn't physical.


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

Because when North Americans talk about "electronic music" (seems a safe bet that that's where the people you're talking about come from) they're almost always thinking of a) dubstep, a tiny, already-dead sub-genre that's about as representative as say, noo-metal would be of all rock music) or b) stuff that's just barely influenced by electronic music, and is instead 20-70% composed of formulaic commercial consistently high pitched and volume-compressed simplistic bimbo-made crap for 12 year olds whose brains haven't developed enough for anything else yet (also known as "pop", the true cancer of modern music). 

If I thought electronic music was professional shit salesmen like J.Lo collaborating with David Guetta, I'd look down on it too! That stuff's no better than Katy Perry, of *course* it deserves no respect, because it's pop. Taking other genres and systematically shittifying them is practically the *definition* of pop. No genre should be judged by the abominations farted out by that process.

When Europe and many other parts of the world talk about electronic music, we mean everything from this:





To this:





To this:





As you can see, the genre is every bit as varied as rock. Yet as varied as it is, nothing like David Guetta or bimbo American pop starlets "having a go" at EDM even enter our minds, that's just clearly not electronic music at all.


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

Indiana Solo said:


> To me it's just electronic noises. Some of it wouldn't be classified as music. To be music you have to have vocal, instrumental, or both to produce harmony and express emotion. Some electronic music can be defined as music but things like dubstep and trap wouldn't be classified as music. All it has is a beat and some irritating noises. Most of it is created on a computer which should be IMHO frowned upon. I'm sure it takes some effort to do on a computer but that doesn't mean anything. Btw I don't hear any classical music inspirations, just garbage.


Is this "music" according to your reactionary definition?






What emotion does this express? Can you name it? No? How about this?






Any more tangible? Probably not.

Some music deliberately leaves traditional harmony behind. That's the point. Art has to change, else it offers nothing. The possibility of new sounds is infinite in the electronic medium. Instrumental music is probably reaching the end of its reign - there is more opportunity for innovation in electronic. The fact that these sounds are alien to us makes them interesting.

E.g. This track is quite unlike anything else I've heard.
https://rolandosimmons.bandcamp.com/track/duelling-parrots
And this
https://rolandosimmons.bandcamp.com/track/transit-hub

Some more..





https://trackermatte.bandcamp.com/track/dob-m-nisez-d-dorey-vis


In short: educate yourself. Your position is that of ignorance. Electronic music is a chance to break from the usual formulae, though of course it does have some of its own. You just have to look in the right places for the fresh stuff.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> Is this "music" according to your reactionary definition?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Educate myself on what? I've played instruments and been interested in music since I was 4. I changed my mind in my second comment about it not being music. It's barely music the only thing it has is notes. Those first two videos are music because they're instrumental. I get that music has to innovate but music has a structure. Every genre of music has structure but this does not it's just a mess. There's nothing special about electronic music it's just a bunch of immature shit like the sound of loading a gun and firing and annoying noises that just shouts "DO YOU HEAR ME?!" It's just a bunch of spontaneous shit that's as innovative as turning on my garbage disposal.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

Most of it is noise that makes your ears bleed. Also the fact that it's artifical music made on a computer instead of an actual instrument..


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

Indiana Solo said:


> Educate myself on what? I've played instruments and been interested in music since I was 4. I changed my mind in my second comment about it not being music. It's barely music the only thing it has is notes. Those first two videos are music because they're instrumental. I get that music has to innovate but music has a structure. Every genre of music has structure but this does not it's just a mess. There's nothing special about electronic music it's just a bunch of immature shit like the sound of loading a gun and firing and annoying noises that just shouts "DO YOU HEAR ME?!" It's just a bunch of spontaneous shit that's as innovative as turning on my garbage disposal.


Educate yourself in electronic music. I don't give a fuck about your 'credentials'; they don't give your opinions any sway over mine.

So anything with an instrument in is music? What if I bow under the bridge of a violin and call it a tune?

Electronic music has structure. Explain to me how the first video has a tangible structure. Its main goal seems to be atmosphere. Also, Shostakovich deliberately forsakes traditional structure. It's definitely not Mozart. No catchy refrains, few repeats as far as I can tell. Yet it still coheres.

Did you listen to the other tracks I posted? From what you're saying it seems not. Honestly it's ridiculous that you claim electronic music doesn't have structure. Certainly it is not written in sonata form.. but it is far from spontaneous- people like Aphex Twin program their own tools and create their own sounds, for example. Electronic music has rhythm, melody, and atmosphere. What more could you want?

Tell me, does this have no structure?




This?





It's very simple; you should be able to pick up on something..

Not all of it is innovative. But it is still quite a new way of producing music. At least as innovative as any other genre..


You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you were trolling. I don't mind.



ziggy stardust x said:


> Most of it is noise that makes your ears bleed. Also the fact that it's artifical music made on a computer instead of an actual instrument..


You're kidding me, right? It's harder to create a tune on a computer than to just noodle around on a traditional instrument. You're also overlooking the fact that producers often use synthesisers for melodies.. which is just like playing the keyboard or the piano at a stretch.

Exactly how much electronic music have you listened to? Have you cared to explore it? I can't fathom how you can dismiss it whilst totally ignorant of its genres.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

The process I go through when listening to EDM/Dubstep/Trap (garbage)


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> Exactly how much electronic music have you listened to? Have you cared to explore it? I can't fathom how you can dismiss it whilst totally ignorant of its genres.


Just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion as you doesn't mean that they are 'ignorant' of music, you need to get over yourself darling. Take a chill pill.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

Indiana Solo said:


> The process I go through when listening to EDM/Dubstep/Trap (garbage)


It's just physically painful.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> Educate yourself in electronic music. I don't give a fuck about your 'credentials'; they don't give your opinions any sway over mine.
> 
> So anything with an instrument in is music? What if I bow under the bridge of a violin and call it a tune?
> 
> ...


Why would I educate myself on garbage. That doesn't interest me. Yea you could bow under the bridge of a violin and call it a song. Not all songs are good. Those two songs are also music and have structure. They had instruments or they were synthetic I couldn't tell. I listened to all the songs that you gave and the ones that you linked to were fucking weird and nothing special. I wouldn't say electronic music has melody just rhythm and notes. Here are the electronic music that I'm complaining about.


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

Indiana Solo said:


> The process I go through when listening to EDM/Dubstep/Trap (garbage)


{electronic music} =/= {EDM, dubstep, trap}



ziggy stardust x said:


> Just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion as you doesn't mean that they are 'ignorant' of music, you need to get over yourself darling. Take a chill pill.


You are ignorant of electronic music; I don't believe you have listened to enough of it to dismiss it all. You probably haven't cared to find stuff you like. That's fine, but don't go around judging genres based on your minute knowledge of them.



> Most of it is noise that makes your ears bleed.


Do you see what is wrong with this statement? You are making a general statement here. This statement, you claim, applies to "most" electronic music. I doubt you have enough evidence to support this view.

I've already dealt with your second sentence, which, I assure you, stems from ignorance (i.e. you don't know what you're talking about).

Ignorance is not necessarily permanent. But if you don't care for an open mind, then what can I do to stop you? I just think your world suffers for it. I happen to feel quite strongly about stubbon narrow-mindedness. Maybe that's just me being stubborn and narrow-minded...


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> {electronic music} =/= {EDM, dubstep, trap}
> 
> 
> 
> You are ignorant of electronic music; I don't believe you have listened to enough of it to dismiss it all. You probably haven't cared to find stuff you like. That's fine, but don't go around judging genres based on your minute knowledge of them.


OK. You are entitled to your misguided beliefs. Just don't clog up my notifications, thanks.


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

Indiana Solo said:


> Why would I educate myself on garbage. That doesn't interest me. Yea you could bow under the bridge of a violin and call it a song. Not all songs are good. Those two songs are also music and have structure. They had instruments or they were synthetic I couldn't tell. I listened to all the songs that you gave and the ones that you linked to were fucking weird and nothing special. I wouldn't say electronic music has melody just rhythm and notes. Here are the electronic music that I'm complaining about.


You would educate yourself because you don't know that it is "garbage". That is a synthetic a priori judgement, i.e. it is invalid. Why does being "fucking weird" make something any less good? What do you want? A formula; some Foo Fighters maybe? I'd say that stuff has less merit.

Obviously you just found the first trap mix on youtube and obviously something called "Best of Trap Music Mix 2015 [Eargasmic Drops]" is not going to be high art. If you go for the most immediately available music in any genre, you will mostly encounter rubbish. I don't think that's surprising or particular to electronic music.


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## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

People look down on electronic music because it is often made without using instruments. Apparently that means it's not "real music". It's an ignorant attitude that stems from elitism towards instrument appreciation. Their loss though, honestly. There's some really amazing electronic music out there and those people will likely never find it because they've made up their minds about it before even hearing it.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> You would educate yourself because you don't know that it is "garbage". That is a synthetic a priori judgement, i.e. it is invalid. Why does being "fucking weird" make something any less good? What do you want? A formula; some Foo Fighters maybe? I'd say that stuff has less merit.
> 
> Obviously you just found the first trap mix on youtube and obviously something called "Best of Trap Music Mix 2015 [Eargasmic Drops]" is not going to be high art. If you go for the most immediately available music in any genre, you will mostly encounter rubbish. I don't think that's surprising or particular to electronic music.


I've been trying to be careful on what I'm calling garbage. I'm calling Trap and Dubstep garbage. The things that sound like that. ^ I'm sure there's some good electronic music out there but I'm criticizing the things that sound like that. ^ And yeah the things that you linked to that were a bunch of random noises was weird and not good. I'd love to listen to Foo Fighters they're really good.


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

ziggy stardust x said:


> OK. You are entitled to your misguided beliefs. Just don't clog up my notifications, thanks.


Jesus. You're not going to try and convince me of your point? Is that because you don't have anything to back it up with? Thought so. You clearly came here just to post your opinion and receive some thanks. Sorry for inconveniencing you..


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## starvingautist (Mar 23, 2015)

Indiana Solo said:


> I've been trying to be careful on what I'm calling garbage. I'm calling Trap and Dubstep garbage. The things that sound like that. ^ I'm sure there's some good electronic music out there but I'm criticizing the things that sound like that. ^ And yeah the things that you linked to that were a bunch of random noises was weird and not good. I'd love to listen to Foo Fighters they're really good.


Okay. I'll agree that some of it is garbage, but I don't know enough of it to be sure. (neither do you).

I disagree that FF are really good.. but that's irrelevant.


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## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> Jesus. You're not going to try and convince me of your point? Is that because you don't have anything to back it up with? Thought so. You clearly came here just to post your opinion and receive some thanks. Sorry for inconveniencing you..


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

starvingautist said:


> Okay. I'll agree that some of it is garbage, but I don't know enough of it to be sure. (neither do you).
> 
> I disagree that FF are really good.. but that's irrelevant.


I'm pretty sure all dubstep and trap sound like that. I'm trying to say just those two sub genres are terrible not the whole electronic music spectrum.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> To me it's just electronic noises. Some of it wouldn't be classified as music. To be music you have to have vocal, instrumental, or both to produce harmony and express emotion. Some electronic music can be defined as music but things like dubstep and trap wouldn't be classified as music. All it has is a beat and some irritating noises. Most of it is created on a computer which should be IMHO frowned upon. I'm sure it takes some effort to do on a computer but that doesn't mean anything. Btw I don't hear any classical music inspirations, just garbage.


It's all music whether you like it or not. Electronic music also has so many sub-genres that dubstep (which I don't listen to) and trap (I've only listened to a couple) make a tiny part of it.

However, this hate for certain electronic sub-genres prevent a lot of people from checking out others which is what I addressed in my OP. People don't realize how diverse it can sound.

These are classically inspired electronic music. 









This is also electronic music in a way. This band is only using synthetizer and live drums.





or this





or something that is super aggressive like these


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Derange At 170 said:


> Because people are idiots. And many dogmatically cling to the past; unaware often that electronically produced music has existed even before blues music has. But at the end of the day, all music is just _sound_, how it is produced should be irrelevant. It should either be good or not good, which at the end of the day is of course subjective.
> 
> Then, people also frown upon the fact that a lot of it is just "to dance to"; well firstly, I listen to "dance music" in my spare time. I happen to be listening to an artist called Gesloten Cirkel at the moment, who mainly produces retro acid, techno an electro. Secondly, dancing has been a glue that kept society together since the dawn of humanity. Don't understimate the importance of dance in culture.
> 
> ...


They probably also have never seen production grade music software. So complex. I don't think it's possible to use them effectively without knowing how to play real instruments.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

ziggy stardust x said:


> Most of it is noise that makes your ears bleed. Also the fact that it's artifical music made on a computer instead of an actual instrument..


Correction: most of *what you've heard 

*So, by your logic this is better cuz it's using real instruments





than this because they are only using synthetizer and a live drum?


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

ziggy stardust x said:


> Just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion as you doesn't mean that they are 'ignorant' of music, you need to get over yourself darling. Take a chill pill.


But some opinions are less valid than others when you haven't even named any electronic genres you have listened to but yet made a blanket statement about how terrible they are.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> The process I go through when listening to EDM/Dubstep/Trap (garbage)


I feel the same way when people assume that's all there is to it for electronic music.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Binge Thinker said:


> People look down on electronic music because it is often made without using instruments. Apparently that means it's not "real music". It's an ignorant attitude that stems from elitism towards instrument appreciation. Their loss though, honestly. There's some really amazing electronic music out there and those people will likely never find it because they've made up their minds about it before even hearing it.


How they think people can make music on a computer without knowing how to play real instruments is bluffing to me.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> I'm pretty sure all dubstep and trap sound like that. I'm trying to say just those two sub genres are terrible not the whole electronic music spectrum.


This is the only dubstep song I know. I didn't like it but it has melody, vocals and song structure.





This is one of the few Trap albums I have listened to. I also didn't like this one that much but this sounds nothing like your typical trap either.





I think @*starvingautist* was saying if anyone of us explored these two sub-genres enough, we would probably find something that is not horrible but since none of us really listens to these two, we have no say in it.

If someone like me, who doesn't even listen to these two sub-genres, was able to find something that isn't horrible, there's probably tons of albums out there that don't sound half bad.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It's all music whether you like it or not. Electronic music also has so many sub-genres that dubstep (which I don't listen to) and trap (I've only listened to a couple) make a tiny part of it.
> 
> However, this hate for certain electronic sub-genres prevent a lot of people from checking out others which is what I addressed in my OP. People don't realize how diverse it can sound.
> 
> ...


Ok well you should've read my other comments and I stated some of it in my first comment. I'm complaining about 2 sub genres maybe 3 that are dubstep and trap maybe EDM which are completely garbage. I didn't say electronic music as a whole was garbage just those 2 or 3 sub genres.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> Ok well you should've read my other comments and I stated some of it in my first comment. I'm complaining about 2 sub genres maybe 3 that are dubstep and trap maybe EDM which are completely garbage. I didn't say electronic music as a whole was garbage just those 2 or 3 sub genres.


I was referring to your comment about how you have never heard classical inspired electronic music and I have replied to your dubstep and trap comments. I know nothing about EDM.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> This is the only dubstep song I know. I didn't like it but it has melody, vocals and song structure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I know what he was talking about he just didn't know what I was talking about. Those two sub genres are bad. I don't think the songs you suggested sounded like trap or dubstep.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> I was referring to your comment about how you have never heard classical inspired electronic music and I have replied to your dubstep and trap comments. I know nothing about EDM.


Yeah I don't care about classical inspired electronic music because that's not what I'm arguing about.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> Yeah I know what he was talking about he just didn't know what I was talking about. Those two genres are bad. I don't think the songs you suggested sounded like trap or dubstep.


They are dubstep and trap. You can research yourself.

Burial is considered one of the most prominent dubstep musicians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_(Burial_album)

cocainejesus is pretty new. This album just dropped a few months back. I listened to them because they mixed vaporwave (which I am a fan of) with trap and have their own unique style of sound. 
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/cocainejesus/were_worried_about_you/

That's kind of the point. You shouldn't assume all musicians/bands/albums under a certain sub-genre sound exactly the same especially if you have only heard the mainstream version of it.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> Yeah I don't care about classical inspired electronic music because that's not what I'm arguing about.


You said you've never heard of it. That's why I showed you. Now you have heard of it. There's nothing to be arguing about.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> They are dubstep and trap. You can research yourself.
> 
> Burial is considered one of the most prominent dubstep musicians.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_(Burial_album)
> ...


I really don't think those songs fit into those sub genres. You can look at a genre like metal and say they all basically sound the same but the thing that differs them is style, speed, and tone but with that it's completely different and structured differently than what dubstep and trap are. I think those get their own genre like alternative EDM or Indie EDM idk but those don't fit. Like I listen to metal and I haven't found a artist that was drastically different in that sense than the rest.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> I really don't think those songs fit into those sub genres. You can look at a genre like metal and say they all basically sound the same but the thing that differs them is style, speed, and darkness but with that it's completely different and structured differently than what dubstep and trap are. I think those get their own genre like alternative EDM or Indie EDM idk but those don't fit. Like I listen to metal and I haven't found a artist that was drastically different in that sense than the rest.


Dude, come on.

Burial is a freaking dubstep producer. He owns a dubstep label. You can't get much more dubstep than that.
Maybe you should listen further into the album and not just the intro track. It is using trap music.

Refer to my OP 


Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> Why does this happen too often? People like to often bash on electronic music but don't seem to have a clue about *how diverse electronic music genre is *or how much effort and classical music inspirations were put into some of them.


This is the point I've been making this whole time. Electronic genre is diverse. It can sound literally like anything. That's why one shouldn't bash electronic genre or any of its sub-genres just by hearing a few horrible mainstream songs. It's like judging Metal music on Slipknot. Do all metal bands sound like that?

Don't get me started on metal because I also know weird metal music as well. You got one thing right. Metal is not as diverse as electronic music. There's a level of repetitiveness with metal which is why I stopped listening to it. I got bored but still I think you're also comparing metal within the what you know and not what actually exists just like you are doing it with electronic music.

These don't sound like your typical metal music but they are still metal.


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## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> How they think people can make music on a computer without knowing how to play real instruments is bluffing to me.


For sure.

Why would music even have to come from a traditional instrument to be considered music?

The attitude that they don't know how to make music because it's coming from a piece of hardware is like saying composers can't be good composers if they're not also good performers.


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## Old Man Aragorn (Apr 24, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> Dude, come on.
> 
> Burial is a freaking dubstep producer. He owns a dubstep label. You can't get much more dubstep than that.
> Maybe you should listen further into the album and not just the intro track. It is using trap music.
> ...


I should've specified better. Things shouldn't sound that different in a sub genre. Everything in a sub genre should sound pretty similar. There shouldn't be a slow song in the thrash metal sub genre. Things can be diverse in a genre but not really in a sub genre. And yeah most metal bands sound like Slipknot xD


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Indiana Solo said:


> No a computer is not a instrument because it was not built for the soul purpose of creating music


Choral music isn't music because mouths did not evolve for the sole puprose of creating music.

"Clapping Music" by Steve Reich is not music because hands did not evolve for the sole purpose of creating music.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

SJWDefener said:


> They mostly have no emotion i.e. grime and trap music, and even if they have no emotion, they sound distasteful or feeble like those genres I mentioned. I've only managed to get into dubstep, and even then, I'm not totally into all of it. However, I will say that I prefer electronic ambient music, such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's highly subjective. I feel very deeply towards Vaporwave and most people will not even call it music. What you find good, someone finds distasteful. Taste is not universal or for the same reasons.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> That's highly subjective. I feel very deeply towards Vaporwave and most people will not even call it music. What you find good, someone finds distasteful. Taste is not universal or for the same reasons.


Because some people don't appreciate the ﻿ＡＥＳＴＨＥＴＩＣＳ.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> Because some people don't appreciate the ﻿ＡＥＳＴＨＥＴＩＣＳ.


A E S T H E T I C S is my goddamn relaxation every day.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> A E S T H E T I C S is my goddamn relaxation every day.


/music plays﻿

On a serious note, have you heard of this album? I love it to death!


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)




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## Maxxie (Nov 29, 2014)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> Who doesn't love Grimes?


Anthony Fantano, "the internet's busiest music nerd" lol


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> /music plays﻿
> 
> On a serious note, have you heard of this album? I love it to death!


I will listen to it later, thanks!


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Maxxie said:


> Anthony Fantano, "the internet's busiest music nerd" lol


Quaktony Ducktano should be nicer to GRIMES!! Even Cal agrees!!



Aya the Lady of Cinder said:


> I will listen to it later, thanks!


No problem. Check it out when you want to. I think they redefined Vaporwave in my opinion. Ok, I'll stop before I oversell it.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I don't know... don't most genres of music rely on technology in some form or another? I'm sure pianos were seen the same way, at one time.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

WamphyriThrall said:


> I don't know... don't most genres of music rely on technology in some form or another? I'm sure pianos were seen the same way, at one time.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)




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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> /music plays﻿
> 
> On a serious note, have you heard of this album? I love it to death!


While I like it a lot, and I'm by no means trying to one-up you on this or anything. But I've increasingly found that this record by 1991 captures the vibe or style it's going for even better, even if it isn't vaporwave or anything. (And Opal Tapes is a badass label) And while the 2814 record is completely deserving of all the critical aclaim, kinda sucks that 1991 doesn't get it haha.


* *













Oh and this was a related video on Youtube, which is a great ambient record by the house producer Terekke, who is basically the biggest badman on the scene right now.


* *





[video=youtube;3bTZe0f85-Ia]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bTZe0f85-Ia[/video]


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## Vahyavishdapaya (Sep 2, 2014)

Who cares what people think? To me, the most important qualifier of something's inherent greatness is that the great unwashed masses can't stomach it. For instance, they hate maths, maths is the shit. They hate philosophy, philosophy is the shit. They hate g-funk, g-funk is the shit. They hate electronic music, I wouldn't go as far as calling it the shit, but it's quite alright in my opinion.
















I think this qualifies as electronic music, a synthesizer is required to produce them sine waves.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> /music plays﻿
> 
> On a serious note, have you heard of this album? I love it to death!


Oh. my. God. What is life. I'm in love. This is great.

I wanna share something back.






It's just the one song, but damnit it's fucking great.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Derange At 170 said:


> And many dogmatically cling to the past; unaware often that electronically produced music has existed even before blues music has.


Even before blues? I would like to hear your examples from The 1920's. Were they listening thunderstorms after consuming the wrong species of mushrooms... Or... Maybe you will try to convince me with harmonic distortion caused by the valve radios?



ziggy stardust x said:


> Also the fact that it's artifical music made on a computer instead of an actual instrument..


I, for one, care the result instead of instrumentalism snobbery. After all, there are many ridiculously disciplined and well educated musicians who focused on electronic genres... Don't confuse Tiësto with Ryuichi Sakamoto and Alan Parsons. Both guys are multi-intrumentalists and capable of teaching you traditional music theory in academic level. You don't have to like anything for sure but you are trying to justify your indifference as a personal taste by underestimating an art form and it's artists... Including the ones you didn't know or listen.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

yet another intj said:


> Even before blues? I would like to hear your examples from The 1920's. Were they listening thunderstorms after consuming the wrong species of mushrooms... Or... Maybe you will try to convince me with harmonic distortion caused by the valve radios?


Yes, even before the blues.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Derange At 170 said:


> Yes, even before the blues.


I'm still not convinced by that "synthetic instrument" just because it was using basic methods of piezoelectricity for transmission/amplification.

What the hell... Close enough! I tip my hat to you good sir.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

yet another intj said:


> I'm still not convinced by that "synthetic instrument" just because it was using basic methods of piezoelectricity for transmission/amplification.
> 
> What the hell... Close enough! I tip my hat to you good sir.


It's more than that? It's essentially a polyphonic sine-wave generator that could apply a form of additive synthesis operated by a fully functioning keyboard. The sound was created electronically through oscillators (similar to modern synthesizers) and was emitted purely through system of wires that were attached to loudspeakers. It wasn't merely amplifying, processing and conducting an acoustic signal. It was generating sound electronically as well.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

This thread reminds me that I want to get into modular synthesizers. Which is NOT a hobby I can afford. Damnit.

Like this

Or this

It seems daunting to me though, but I'd be down with trying it.

But first... learn Reaktor:










I have no excuse.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Derange At 170 said:


> It's more than that? It's essentially a polyphonic sine-wave generator that could apply a form of additive synthesis operated by a fully functioning keyboard. The sound was created electronically through oscillators (similar to modern synthesizers) and was emitted purely through system of wires that were attached to loudspeakers. It wasn't merely amplifying, processing and conducting an acoustic signal. It was generating sound electronically as well.


Indeed, its quite impressive for it's time and I share your opinion about that "mechanical acoustics are overrated" yet I have to stand my ground about the lack of revolutionary qualities. After all, it's a fancy church organ and nothing we can consider as something related with electronic genre.

I would like to be the guy you can "somewhat" tolerate... The guy who recognize Hideki Matsutake as the first true pioneer of electronic music.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Woops, ton of posts in a row.



R.E. Amemiya said:


> I think this qualifies as electronic music, a synthesizer is required to produce them sine waves.


I would say it goes much deeper than that. Culturally speaking, hip-hop isn't far removed from dub reggae, jungle, dubstep, grime, etc. DJ Kool Herc was originally a reggae DJ who organized soundsystem parties, which is something he brought with him from Jamaica, where DJs (there known as selectors) would play the hottest tracks in soundclashes (competitions, comparable to battles) and deejays (MCs) would "toast" over instrumentals -- toasting is the Jamaican precursor to rapping. His big innovation was really just isolating the breakbeats from funk and soul records on two turntables, and one breakbeat was over, he would rewind the next turntable and replay it. Playing a prolonged drum session on two turntables, a mixer and a soundsystem.

The UK's rich Caribean population also brought soundsystem culture to the UK (mostly in London and Bristol) with them and it merged with the UK's counter-culture and the imported acid house and electro records from the US. Which spawned the earliest known "rave scene" and breakbeat music and subsequently jungle, UK garage, grime/dubstep, etc.

It allll goes back to Jamaican dub music back in the '70s. And not just culturally. The music itself operates on the notion that the STUDIO is the instrument. For those reggae soundclasses, selectors wanted to have the most cutting edge and unique dubs (tracks) to play for the crowds. To comply, the engineers would create their own studio effects such as reverb and delay. And mix the dubs down with a lot of focus on groove, low-end bass sounds and the hi-hats swinging on top of it (a formula later applied in alll UK dance music or old school hip-hop). The engineers would essentially sit behind the mixing desk as if it was an instrument and play it and the effects as such. Using the recorded band merely as source material. Each of these dubs would be unique.

The 20th century saw an increasing move towards treating the studio as an instrument. It started in the classical realm, prominently with musique concrète (where composers worked with prerecorded sounds to tape in a lab), and was later adopted by some rock bands such as Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention and the Beatles (both still influenced by the stylings of musique concrète). Dub engineers in the late '60s introduced it more firmly as a technique in popular music, all in their own way. It set the stage for sampling and using samplers as instruments.

Even during the '80s, electro-hop (especially on the west coast), boogie-funk and early techno overlapped a lot. Electro and electro-hop were even precursors to techno music. Techno Hop Rrecords, which was an early West coast hip-hop label (home to the likes of King Tee, Ice-T, Unknown DJ (of who would later on produce gangsta rap) and even Cli-N-Tel, who used to be in the World Class Wreckin Cru with Dr. Dre -- also a pre-techno electro-hop act) that released music that at present, would only be considered electronic:


* *












And I mean, that's what hip-hop is really about. Forms of rapping have always existed in African(-American) music traditions. But the way it turned the engineer into the musician, be it the form of the DJ or the producer, was what really revolutionized it. The MC is incidental. And I'm pretty sure that if hip-hop hadn't become so MC-centric, no one would've batted an eye if you said that it's electronic music.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

yet another intj said:


> Indeed, its quite impressive for it's time and I share your opinion about that "mechanical acoustics are overrated" yet I have to stand my ground about the lack of revolutionary qualities. After all, it's a fancy church organ and nothing we can consider as something related with electronic genre.


The fact that the design was based on a keyboard was likely out of utilitarian reasons. What else would you expect? Modern synthesizers also generate sound with oscillators the way the teleharmonium did -- does that make the synthesizer less of an electronic instrument? Does the fact that most synthesizers are operated through a keyboard make them nothing but a fancy prepared piano? We create things to suit our current needs, to intigrate the new with what is currently possible. If we had all the knowledge we had now about engineering and logistics, we would probably design something completely different from the modern system of roads or trains that we have. But that's what we have to work with. And that doesn't make the car any less distinct from a horse-drawn carriage in terms of how it operates, even if the basic plan is fairly similar. So yes, you played it like an organ. But it generated sound electronically that was also processed electronically, through oscillators no less. It was essentially a crude synthesizer. And that it's crudes should not take away from the fact that it created and manipulated sounds electronically.



yet another intj said:


> I would like to be the guy you can "somewhat" tolerate... The guy who recognize Hideki Matsutake as the first true pioneer of electronic music.


Krautrock bands (including Kraftwerk, Faust), Silver Apples, DJ Kool Herc, Giorgio Moroder, Lee "Scratch" Perry, Iannis Xenakis, Bernard Parmegiani, Laura Spiegel (shown below, performing on a digital synthesizer in 1977), Delia Derbyshire (also shown below), Masami Akita, etc. are all equally pioneers. And Hideki Matsutake would not have been anywhere if it it wasn't for some of these musicians preceding him either. Which shouldn't take away from his influence either. But I wouldn't just draw the line with him. Electronically produced and generated or edited music is electronic music no matter how you cut it.


* *


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

I remembered this for years ago. I honestly cannot understand how someone can look down at something so chill and cool. I'm not even going into the feelings it makes me feel.


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## Fadingspark (Apr 30, 2016)

IMO the whole argument that electronic stuff is "artificial music" is just absurd. Music is just sound, and sound is just vibrations in the air. Also what about electronic music where the melodies are composed on a synth or maybe an acoustic guitar is recorded? Technically if you record an acoustic song, playing it back through speakers would make it artificial, therefore you could only enjoy live performances done without the aid of amplifiers and speakers since if those are messing with the sound it's no longer pure right?
Artificial music is an argument that makes as much sense as how movies are artificial entertainment, and only theater should be considered a legit performance.

It's just sound that is being created and composed for people's enjoyment for crying out loud.


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## piece in quite (Aug 10, 2015)

Lol it's always hilarious to watch white middle class self-proclaimed musical experts talk down on electronic music as if they have the slightest clue what they're talking about, but they think they are geniuses at everything because they are well-spoken. It's even funnier when they think they know what Dubstep is because they've heard of Skrillex.

They don't have a god damn clue about the cultural origins or production process or musical structure of electronic music at all, and yet they will go up to people who have put their blood, swear and tears in to push the music forward that are part of the communities that descend from "electronic music" and tell us what our culture is and why it's crap, and then talk down to us as if they know it better than you when they are making so many blatantly false statements. 

It's only recently that they've been gradually been accepting of Hip Hop, and that's only because well-spoken white guys like Anthony Fantano have 'intellectualized' it, as if the music wasn't 'intelligent' before.

Say what you want to say about what I've just said, but as a DJ and producer, this is an observation that has only occurred time and time and time again; always the same bullshit.


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## Faery (May 18, 2011)

Because the patterns in the music don't sufficiently play with, entertain or defy their mental expectations. Part of why humans enjoy music is due to our individual musical consumption throughout life. We've established certain expectations or patterns for what sounds good. When things slightly deviate, align or play with that pattern, it creates euphoria. I'm not sure why anyone would go out of their way to bash it, when instead they can remain neutral to it. There are so many sub-genres of what constitutes as electronic music that it's unfair to throw it all into one category and say it's shit, however, it's their right to have an opinion different from mine. There are plenty types of music I don't love but still respect, simply for being music. My love for electronic in all its forms is probably due to growing up with it, (started listening to "dance" and "techno" music when I was 10 or 11), and it slowly evolved into more complex and sophisticated forms of music. Electronic is really the heart of music for me. I also love the aspect of human imprinting upon sounds that are electronic and coldish. To hear something extraordinarily detached from the warmer, human aspects of sound and still encapsulate the warmth of the human soul using tools completely unlike itself is beautiful to me. I love how synths can sound incredibly human, emotional and vulnerable. I feel that emotional atmospheres can be described, explored and created in a sonic language that is exclusive to electronic music.


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