# An unsettling bout of personal reflection begs the question: INTP or INFJ?



## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Let Down said:


> I'm not structured outside or inside, though. My room is usually a mess, for example, and that's because I don't feel like cleaning it, but I prefer having an externally clean room to a messy one. My mind is far more cluttered than my external world, though. My personality seems more organized and serious than it actually is, but my room isn't a very good indicator of that.


You just reminded me of this,



http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/ said:


> *The inner world of INFJs in many ways resembles the outer world of ENFPs. It is playful, colorful, mischievous, and daring.* Because their Ni is dominant rather than auxiliary, INFJs tend to be more subversive in their ideation than ENFJs. While INFJs are deeply theoretical, they are less impressed by theories built by a mere assemblage of facts or data. Rather than being “fact” oriented, INFJs concern themselves with forging new connections and reconciling opposites by way of their Intuition. They feel that everything is somehow connected to everything else, forming a vast and interconnected web. For INFJs, discovering truth involves getting a better handle on the nature of this connectedness and the holographic patterns of the universe.


^ On that topic, that's a key trait of an Ni-dom. ( see: INTJ INFJ Personality Types | 16 MBTI Personality Types )



Let Down said:


> I only regularly speak to a few EJs and I usually don't relate to them much. As for EPs, they generally resonate a lot more with me, but they often can get a bit too out there. I wouldn't know. Most of the people I talk to are IJs and IPs. And *I generally relate more with the IPs than the IJs that I know*. (Just speaking from experience from my friends -- I only have one IJ friend that I can think of right now, an ISFJ, and we've always sort of had conflicting personalities so I don't know if she's the best one to work off of)


*li'l laugh* When you mentioned ISFJ, it made me think of FlutterShy the pegasus pony from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, whom I think is an endearing character who quite possibly has some notable ISFJ qualities /personality traits.

I've been reading, lately, how INTP and INFJ are different from each other in complementary ways, which explains a lot- as this article puts it, they're sometimes dubbed "the golden pair".

INTP-INFJ Relationships & Compatibility: Part I | Personality Junkie

INFJ-INTP Relationships & Compatibility: Part II | Personality Junkie

This helps me to understand how my INTP brother has perceived me to be so much like himself, and why he mentioned one time while drunk as I was driving him home from a theater that he felt I was closer with our other brother than with him -which made him feel sad. I shouldn't be smiling about this, but it was sweet of him to say. Anyway...

Both INTP and INFJ know, with practice, how to utilize social networks in all aspects of personal, educational, and business life (Fe) to pool together potential human resources, harvest information, solicit guidance, and request favors. Mature INTP seem to be much more innately skilled at this when it comes to people and groups than INFJ would be- my INTP bro is in the military, he has hundreds of contacts on FaceBook to draw upon, though his immediate family is presently small he is a member of a large nuclear and extended family, and is now an active member of a religious organization. He's definitely an introvert, but the way he talks with people most of them would never guess or realize that; his inferior Fe hasn't been neglected.



Let Down said:


> This is extremely helpful, but I wonder, what else do you think is a good tool for differentiating between the types?


Your mind, and powers of observation.

I can't answer questions for you that you must pose and answer for yourself; As many resources as I provide, your ability to seek and find will yield what you need. Whether intuition is introverted or extraverted, for you, patterns begin to emerge the closer you look at something and also the further you step away from it to gain some perspective from distance. As much as you question something, there will be certain, inalienable truths which can't be explained, justified, nor excused away as something they are not -no matter how hard you might try. Looking at something differently doesn't change its nature- what can change is your perception and understanding of it based on your capacity for either of those, combined.

You might be noticing, there is INFJ throughout every sentence I type. It's unmistakeable. People who can't see it probably weren't looking for it, but, once they do, it's obvious.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Let Down said:


> Honestly, the more I monitor my behavior, the more I think I'm an INFJ. I feel like I use too much Fe for INTP. I think my thought process tends to go Ni -> Fe (quickly shut down Fe) -> Ti, so it ends up looking like Ni -> Ti. Inferior Se seems clear, the only thing I'm iffy about is I seem to use Ne/Si pretty regularly, moreso Si though, and I'm not an ISFJ. Does anyone have anything to say about that? I'd rather you stop me and go "Wait, I think you're about to mistype" than let me mistype.


Have you ever noticed if you have an ability to hold two or more sides of something in your mind and weigh them, equally, despite how they may seem contradictory, eventually able to reconcile the relevance of each and ALL of them as simultaneously being possible without being mutually exclusive of each other? Does it ever drive you a bit, well, "out of sorts"? Dichotomy, paradox, that sort of concept; They tend to fascinate INFJ.



Let Down said:


> Right. So, after a long time of trial and error, I was completely and thoroughly convinced of me being an INTP. And I do fit the descriptions quite well, *but* recently, I've been seriously pondering if I'm an INFJ caught in a serious Ni-Ti loop.





Let Down said:


> It would probably be better if you guys asked me questions, or had me choose between two things, because I always feel like I've gone into too much detail *and also* not enough when I type long things about myself.


Some more food for thought,



http://personalityjunkie.com/10/introverted-intuition-ni-in-infjs-intjs/ said:


> *Rectifying Contradictions & Paradoxes*
> 
> Ni can also be an effective tool for handling paradoxical or contradictory evidence. To the rational mind, two contradictory assertions cannot simultaneously coexist; one of the them must be rendered false. But according to Jung, the unconscious, through it’s innate creativity, is adept at reconciling opposites and transcending paradoxes. An INFJ friend of mine is a champion of paradoxical or *Janusian thinking*. In our discussions of philosophy, she has sought to transcend traditional categorizations and dichotomies by claiming that knowledge is at once relative and absolute, subjective and objective, temporal and eternal, etc. Again, to the rational mind, which relishes and even relies on such dichotomies, this can be difficult to swallow. When handled via the tools of Ni, however, paradoxes may become more readily comprehensible.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

SweetSurrender said:


> Have you ever noticed if you have an ability to hold two or more sides of something in your mind and weigh them, equally, despite how they may seem contradictory, eventually able to reconcile the relevance of each and ALL of them as simultaneously being possible without being mutually exclusive of each other? Does it ever drive you a bit, well, "out of sorts"? Dichotomy, paradox, that sort of concept; They tend to fascinate INFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be honest, at first I was like, "What?" And then it struck me in my gut -- yes, I do. I have a very paradoxical mindset. The world is such a fascinating place, how can you say anything is for certain? I've always asserted that I don't believe in universal truths and that I don't necessarily believe in reality, either. I don't see why it's so ridiculous for people to accept that something may be both true and not true, or that all is subjective and it depends on the situation, or that the world might be full of more paradoxes and unexplainable happenings than most people are willing to believe. Is that, perhaps, what you meant?


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Let Down said:


> Is that, perhaps, what you meant?


Yes.

More food for thought, INTP and INFJ each incorporate Ti into the functional stack... but for INFJ dominant Ni precedes tertiary Ti, allowing for more flexibility when coming to a judgment about something than does dominant Ti preceding tertiary Si (which is a JCF rooted in what's established, routine, familiar, or nostalgic). INFJ can be drawn to what's familiar, or nostalgic, but they aren't particularly enthusiastic about routine and establishment(s) as, instead, the inferior Se pushes INFJ to actively try something new every so often, to do something in a different way and see what happens as a result.

Personally, routines can actually really demoralize me, and I know it's something my INTP bro struggles with but eventually surrenders to, habitually. I loathe -always- doing something the same old way, especially when I've conceived of a better way to do it that serves as a benefit to pretty much everyone affected by the change, whether directly or indirectly. I will happily fly in the face of tradition if it makes life better in even the smallest way for myself -but, especially makes things better for more people than just myself.

I want the truth to have, um, not really its moment, not just be in the spotlight but persist as a lasting testament in everyday acknowledgment and acceptance and practice and progression. I hate when science and medicine know something but keep it from the general public to serve some self-interest or preservation of how things have been. It actually disgusts me.

There are things my INTP bro would never do and will always do, in terms of preserving traditional and moral convention, that he was shocked I, in contrast, had done or hadn't done- and vice versa. He would go along with a social norm, or out of curiosity in his youth rebelliously break a social norm in a dramatic departure, and I would ask, "Why? Did it make you happy, or did you do it to "fit in" with the people you wanted to associate with?" As much pressure as there can be on INTP and INFJ to conform, an INFJ can be keenly aware that it won't yield desirable results, while an INTP can be keenly aware that conforming can be a justifiable trade off for other rewards.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

SweetSurrender said:


> Yes.
> 
> More food for thought, INTP and INFJ each incorporate Ti into the functional stack... but for INFJ dominant Ni precedes tertiary Ti, allowing for more flexibility when coming to a judgment about something than does dominant Ti preceding tertiary Si (which is a JCF rooted in what's established, routine, familiar, or nostalgic). INFJ can be drawn to what's familiar, or nostalgic, but they aren't particularly enthusiastic about routine and establishment(s) as, instead, the inferior Se pushes INFJ to actively try something new every so often, to do something in a different way and see what happens as a result.
> 
> ...


Oh my god, this is too accurate. I'm okay with some routine, and I do go to the past occasionally to evaluate the present, but I tend to try to take in the present first, and if I still feel uncomfortable, _then _move onto the past. It doesn't always happen instinctively, I feel like it's something I switch on. I do spend a lot of time at the end of my day thinking about things I saw that day, though, and so on and so on -- and I'm good at remembering things about people (like what they like) and details from events that resonate emotionally with me, but on the flipside, I'm terrible at remembering things like birthdays and stuff. I can remember 17 digits of Pi though, so there's that. I was always led to believe that's Si, but from the POV of an INFJ, can you tell me if you relate to any of that or if it is indeed Si?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

SweetSurrender is really good, so I'll just add one of the descriptions of Ni.



> *Ni*, or *introverted iNtuition*, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of exercise! Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.
> 
> Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others.
> 
> ...


EDIT: I'd like to add that one of the things with Ni is that it often can detach itself from subjective viewpoints and give arguments "from the other side" which to some people might be quite impossible due to the subject at hand being a highly sensitive area.
One of these would be to state that starvation of children in Africa helps to control over-population. It's true, but completely taboo to say.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Omg, that's so accurate. I've always sort of known something and not been able to explain why, so I just stop trying. I've never been super concerned with innovation, either. That's really awesome. I do sometimes like to share my ideas, but the idea of sharing them with a large group of people would be horrific. Bouncing off others' ideas can be fun too, but I don't think it's something I need to do.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Let Down said:


> Omg, that's so accurate. I've always sort of known something and not been able to explain why, so I just stop trying. I've never been super concerned with innovation, either. That's really awesome. I do sometimes like to share my ideas, but the idea of sharing them with a large group of people would be horrific. Bouncing off others' ideas can be fun too, but I don't think it's something I need to do.


Just posting Ne to give a contrast.


> *Ne*, or *extroverted iNtuitio*n, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns. Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other, more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.
> 
> As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g. Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to put the pieces together and get it.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Ne seems pretty awesome too, but after comparing the descriptions I think I use Ni. I relate a lot more to that. Although I do need some external validation for my ideas, I _am _a 6 after all. And usually, if they shoot them down, it just convinces me that they're an individual idea, which makes it more special to me.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Let Down said:


> Omg, that's so accurate. I've always sort of known something and not been able to explain why, so I just stop trying. I've never been super concerned with innovation, either. That's really awesome. I do sometimes like to share my ideas, but the idea of sharing them with a large group of people would be horrific. Bouncing off others' ideas can be fun too, but I don't think it's something I need to do.


While developing Introverted Thinking (Ti) and Extraverted Sensing (Se) a maturing INFJ can gradually become more adept at explaining those Ni nudges. It's new territory, which can be fun and exhilarating to explore and experiment with. At times, I've been easily intimidated by my INTP bro when he'd disagree with me on something, but I don't forget those moments as my reaction to them has helped me inadvertently sharpen my skills and my tact.

In regard to memorization of details, for INTP the Si is tertiary and for INFJ the Se is inferior, so, compared to other MBTI which have Si or Se among the top 2 JCF in their functional stack, INTP and INFJ will each have some difficulty recalling things associated with sensory impact, especially once the sensations fade in terms of Se being concerned with current or recent impressions.

My father, whom I think is ISTJ (Si dominant, Te auxiliary) is the one who has an index card in his chest of drawers with his kids' birthdays on it, which is one of the key sources where I learned and memorized them from (aside from experiences of celebrating birthdays in relation to a passage of time after other birthdays- like, my mom's is exactly 2 weeks before mine, one of my brother's is the day after mine, all my siblings except one are born on an odd year, etc.). It takes me a while to memorize things, though, because I remember by association, trends, and especially sequential order. I often have to stop or pause while my brain crawls through references, which I'm not sure is an issue because of my mental health history or a latent, innate sort of neural design that comes with being a particular MBTI. *shrug*

I tend to go back to the eldest person in my family (my father) and down the line, chronologically, recalling important dates or anniversaries that I cared to memorize. When family members tell me I am smart or have a good memory, I think they're just saying that because they don't know those things or haven't remembered those things- it wasn't important to them, or wasn't a priority, and /or they had other ways of getting that information whenever they felt the urge or should the need arise, so they hadn't invested the energy or time I did. It says more about them than it does about me- they're not dumb, they don't have bad memories, it's just that we each have different concerns and differing methods of approaching them.

I can remember some things very vividly and others not so much. Last month, my niece told me the birthdays of several people in her family who I'm also related to, but it came at me so fast and was presented by the way she remembers details in a way that I didn't retain any of it when she said it. She's verbally gone over the list of dates with me twice in the past 3 months and I can't remember anything of what she said. She also has Ti (as an ESTP, Ti is her auxiliary function) but no doubt as an Se dominant it serves her differently than mine serves me. I have to write it down, stare at it, think about it, rearrange it, identify something memorable in association with it, before I've permanently imprinted the info in my visual or auditory storehouse of information. If I don't access it regularly, I'm apt to forget. I think an Si user would more readily pull data needed and do so regardless of how "dusty" it is, but I could be wrong...


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

SweetSurrender said:


> While developing Introverted Thinking (Ti) and Extraverted Sensing (Se) a maturing INFJ can gradually become more adept at explaining those Ni nudges. It's new territory, which can be fun and exhilarating to explore and experiment with. At times, I've been easily intimidated by my INTP bro when he'd disagree with me on something, but I don't forget those moments as my reaction to them has helped me inadvertently sharpen my skills and my tact.
> 
> In regard to memorization of details, for INTP the Si is tertiary and for INFJ the Se is inferior, so, compared to other MBTI which have Si or Se among the top 2 JCF in their functional stack, INTP and INFJ will each have some difficulty recalling things associated with sensory impact, especially once the sensations fade in terms of Se being concerned with current or recent impressions.
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree. Sometimes someone will tell me their name and I'll be so focused on being polite that I'll...forget their name. Which seems very counterproductive. I set things to music to remember them. You're being very helpful on this thread -- thank you for that. I made a thread in the INFJ section, but at this point I think it's just confirmation on what I'm suspecting at the moment.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Let Down said:


> Oh, I agree. Sometimes someone will tell me their name and I'll be so focused on being polite that I'll...forget their name.


I frequently can't remember someone's name who I just met. It's embarrassing... ^-^; and tricky to find a way to address them without using their name until someone else says it, again- but possible!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Descriptions of Ni reminds me of some comments made in "The Simpsons" (Lisa is usually typed as an INFJ) for some reason...

Bart: Dad! Lisa's making me see things from both sides again!
Homer: Lisa, I warned you about that!
Lisa: Shouldn't Bart have all the information he needs to make an informed decision?
Homer: Now you're doing it to me, aww...


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

SweetSurrender said:


> I frequently can't remember someone's name who I just met. It's embarrassing... ^-^; and tricky to find a way to address them without using their name until someone else says it, again- but possible!


"How do you spell your name again?" Gets pretty embarrassing if they have a really easy to spell name, but if they do -- "No, I meant your last name too." Which could also be embarrassing if they have an easy to spell last name.

How do you spell your name again?
- Um...B-o-b.
No, I meant your first AND last name.
- S-m-i-t-h?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Let Down said:


> "How do you spell your name again?" Gets pretty embarrassing if they have a really easy to spell name, but if they do -- "No, I meant your last name too." Which could also be embarrassing if they have an easy to spell last name.
> 
> How do you spell your name again?
> - Um...B-o-b.
> ...


I personally just tell them that their hand writing is better than mine, so they should be the one to write it since I don't want their name to be written in an ugly way and then I insist. roud:


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