# Lana Del's Rey Ultraviolence



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

As I know, Lana Del Rey is the current artist we love to hate. "her surgery" "shes seems fake" "she sucks live" so on and so forth, but she has been _the_ person to push dream pop into a pop culture taste - so I will never deny her as a true artist (especially since she's an Enneagram 4, like cmon, 4s were born artists). LDR's third album debuted a few days ago, and was published on Spotify today. Listening to it, it feels more raw lyrically, and more subtle with the sound compared to her first album. 

What are your guys thoughts on her new album, and inevitably discussed, her as an artist?

also, sorry about the misplaced punctuation in the title :frustrating:


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Who is 'we' and why are people 'hating'?

It's not a great album imho. Pales, absolutely, in comparison to Born to Die and her previous unreleased works (both in album and single format). I'm rather disappointed. (But, I love Florida Kilos.)

Btw, Unreleased is only her second _released _album. It's her fourth officially.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Who is 'we' and why are people 'hating'?
> 
> It's not a great album imho. Pales, absolutely, in comparison to Born to Die and her previous unreleased works (both in album and single format). I'm rather disappointed. (But, I love Florida Kilos.)
> 
> Btw, Unreleased is only her second _released _album. It's her fourth officially.


Thanks, I appreciate the thought! I also had a debate with someone, who was making me feel like an idiot for saying it's her second studio - because Paradise is just a re-release delux. But yknow, whatever.

I used We, out of habit, I write for this website, with lots of voice, and I tend to use 'We' as in, the audience's perspective, and not mine's lol. People love to hate Lana, you haven't noticed? Born to Die, has a taste you must acquire to, so people who didn't give her a chance didnt like her style of music. However, I feel Ultraviolence is easier to sink in - for the general audience. After a week of it's release, the album is practically on it's way to the throne on Billboard 200. Born to Die, I feel, was a sleeper album; since it got it's rise gradually.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

I feel BTD was more radio friendly with listenable songs rather than UV; which seems to be about violence and drugs so idgt.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I feel BTD was more radio friendly with listenable songs rather than UV; which seems to be about violence and drugs so idgt.


I dont really enjoy the theme, but it seems to reflect her.. she basically said that she's "wishes she was dead" in a recent interview. She compared to herself to Jim Morrison in one of Paradise's songs, so I really doubt she's the woman to look up to. But then again, entertainment isnt about who to admire.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

I'm a huge fan of hers but I think she tries to create an image with that stuff. She has a good life so I don't think she should be saying that kinda stuff to the media. She says dumb stuff in interviews all the time. She just doesn't have anyone to filter that crap.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> I'm a huge fan of hers but I think she tries to create an image with that stuff. She has a good life so I don't think she should be saying that kinda stuff to the media. She says dumb stuff in interviews all the time. She just doesn't have anyone to filter that crap.


She shouldn't be saying that stuff, and I think she IS trying to make that image but we can never tell how good someone's life truly is, or the demons they have fought 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Superfluous said:


> She shouldn't be saying that stuff, and I think she IS trying to make that image but we can never tell how good someone's life truly is, or the demons they have fought
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i think there's a bit of proof that her life hasn't been that difficult in the abstract. she was a teen Ford model?


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Well you have to understand that Lana del Rey is no more "fake" than David Bowie playing Ziggy Stardust in the 70s and she's trying to encapsulate an idea or a theme, but anyway...from what I have heard of Ultraviolence so far my favorite song is West Coast and the next is Shades of Cool, the first track on the album appeals to "Soldier Boy" and "Born Too Late" style of the sixties but musically the first two tracks, the second of which is the title track, feel very influenced by Tori Amos.

I can post again when I listen to the entire album from beginning to end.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

fourtines said:


> Well you have to understand that Lana del Rey is no more "fake" than David Bowie playing Ziggy Stardust in the 70s and she's trying to encapsulate an idea or a theme, but anyway...from what I have heard of Ultraviolence so far my favorite song is West Coast and the next is Shades of Cool, the first track on the album appeals to "Soldier Boy" and "Born Too Late" style of the sixties but musically the first two tracks, the second of which is the title track, feel very influenced by Tori Amos.
> 
> I can post again when I listen to the entire album from beginning to end.


That's totally true, I forgot. Lizzy Grant is playing Lana like Norma Jean was playing Marilyn. Norma Jean adopted Marilyn so much, she ended up losing her identity and got trapped in the role. I suppose time can only tell, if Lizzy will move on like David left Ziggy. 



isingthebodyelectric said:


> i think there's a bit of proof that her life hasn't been that difficult in the abstract. she was a teen Ford model?


Fame & riches doesn't equal happiness. I feel almost like you get more opportunities to gain personal demons when you have status. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Who is 'we' and why are people 'hating'?
> 
> It's not a great album imho. Pales, absolutely, in comparison to Born to Die and her previous unreleased works (both in album and single format). I'm rather disappointed. (But, I love Florida Kilos.)
> 
> Btw, Unreleased is only her second _released _album. It's her fourth officially.


Really? Shades of Cool is absolutely epic 1950s girl vocalist and it's only my second favorite, I think West Coast is catchier but I need to have a solid beginning to end listen as a proper album.

I am a huge fan though. I love her "idea" so that helps, but I also.think she's musically interesting.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Superfluous said:


> That's totally true, I forgot. Lizzy Grant is playing Lana like Norma Jean was playing Marilyn. Norma Jean adopted Marilyn so much, she ended up losing her identity and got trapped in the role. I suppose time can only tell, if Lizzy will move on like David left Ziggy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly I am not sure how much I would even like Lana without her little world. Either it appeals or it doesn't. I think she has that kind of effect. If you are not into that mid twentieth century nostalgia I can see how it might become a problem.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

fourtines said:


> Honestly I am not sure how much I would even like Lana without her little world. Either it appeals or it doesn't. I think she has that kind of effect. If you are not into that mid twentieth century nostalgia I can see how it might become a problem.


I agree, Lana is aesthetically pleasing from ear to eye. That is her charm too, being a little ethereal siren. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btw the video for West Coast was filmed in Playa del Rey where I live. I have always been excited by "sense of place" (old South, downtown L.A., old paintings that have seen numerous places, Big Sur) so I love that. I walk to that beach every week.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

Lou Reed was supposed to record with Lana, for Brooklyn Baby. Love that song to pieces so it breaks my heart! RIP LOU! I live in BK currently so it's magical hearing it going up and down the streets. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

fourtines said:


> Btw the video for West Coast was filmed in Playa del Rey where I live. I have always been excited by "sense of place" (old South, downtown L.A., old paintings that have seen numerous places, Big Sur) so I love that. I walk to that beach every week.


off topic: The jealousy!! That's in Santa Monica right? I used to live in Venice Beach, sigh, how I miss the laidback joy of Freaksville!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Superfluous said:


> off topic: The jealousy!! That's in Santa Monica right? I used to live in Venice Beach, sigh, how I miss the laidback joy of Freaksville!



The ferris wheel is Santa Monica but the actual beach/pier/water plant in the distance is my Playa. I actually wonder if she used it because it's Playa DEL REY. Playa is more isolated and filled with locals and the white fence and palm trees surround an upper middle class affluent neighborhood known as the Jungle...I love living here, have been here almost a year, intentionally wanted to end up in Santa Monica and this is technically the Santa Monica bay but its so quiet and tree lined, it's really one of the best areas of Los Angeles.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I just listened to Sad Girl, Pretty When You Cry, Money Power Glory and Fucked My Way Up to the Top, there's some beautiful vocalizations there and a theme I have noticed with Lana is high class whoring or adult entertainment, and interestingly she VERY CONVINCINGLY portrays demographic, I know because I know it, and she represents the "better class" of this manifestation, not the ratchet knock off like Miley Cyrus but an articulate, New England, shy sort of whoredom, I find her actually very authentic in a way and wonder about her background, as I know at one point she was crashing on an exes couch in New York....I just wonder if she finds it romantic and did her research or is an authentic. For example on the older song Hundred Dollar Bill she talks about selling the body and hundreds wrapped in silk.

I really like her for what she exposes about society even if her experience isn't completely authentic she's quite convincing.


----------



## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

I'm actually listening to it at work right now. It's my second listen through and I think it's very underwhelming, to be honest. Born To Die was so much better. But I still love Lana <3


----------



## nádej (Feb 27, 2011)

I didn't love it at first, but it was the perfect soundtrack for storms yesterday and the day before, and I left it on repeat at work today, and now I can't get it out of my head. In the best way. I don't know if I _love_ it yet, but it seems likely that I will eventually. I think this album takes a fair amount more time and effort to get into than her previous work.


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

I've come to the conclusion that the album sounds better with headphones in. Born to Die was epic so you didnt need them. But wow, I am so in love with music that is intensely so much better with earphones - I live for all those little details, so you can pratically pull the song apart piece by piece and admire how much extra production was in her songs.


----------



## Grehoy (May 30, 2014)

Superfluous said:


> I've come to the conclusion that the album sounds better with headphones in. Born to Die was epic so you didnt need them. But wow, I am so in love with music that is intensely so much better with earphones - I live for all those little details, so you can pratically pull the song apart piece by piece and admire how much extra production was in her songs.


She looks like an ESFP before surgery and an ESFJ afterwards.


----------



## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

Superfluous said:


> People love to hate Lana, you haven't noticed? Born to Die, has a taste you must acquire to, so people who didn't give her a chance didnt like her style of music. However, I feel Ultraviolence is easier to sink in - for the general audience. After a week of it's release, the album is practically on it's way to the throne on Billboard 200. Born to Die, I feel, was a sleeper album; since it got it's rise gradually.


I kind of regret not giving her a chance for ages, I heard Video Games and saw that her album was called 'Born to Die' and automatically disregarded the album and labelled it as depressing pop crap, then I looked at it again a few months later and actually enjoyed it (this happens to me a lot geez).
I still don't know how I feel about her as an artist, she does have some interesting influences.
I assume people dislike her because of the same reasons as I did or because they think she is fake or just those annoying (but fun to mock) indie guys who don't like anything because it is popular.
Another I wanted to say about her being disliked because she is considered fake, whilst I care if the artist is true to themselves, has some say in their career, message of songs etc. I find a lot of people care way to much about the unimportant stuff like the personal lives of musicians, like who they are dating, their religion or even something as trivial as if they smoke..All that really matters is the music, people need to judge a little less


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

Preach it Musey! 

At the end of the day, all artists are liars. John Lennon was a wife beater and a hippie-give-peach-a-chance poser, and Liz Taylor gave the world a speech saying she only slept with the (many) men she ended up marrying. Lol In the entertainment industry - everyone is a liar, and you only get to the top by; losing your identity to become an image, (like how 20th century created Marilyn's image), jump when the big boys say jump, and sleeping with them when they demand it. 


In short: being fake isn't an excuse deemed plausible to me anymore. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

Also the media gives a million subliminal messages that end up influencing the person you are to become - the only thing about Lana's music is, she's not hiding shit, and she's quite blatant with her dark themes. That I can respect


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Well I only first heard her song Florida Kilos from reading this thread.
I've never seen any point in judging on a album to album basis.
Each song stands on it's own, Lana have had both crappy and good songs in the past,
I expect future songs from her to be a similar mixed bag of candy.


----------



## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Been listening to some of the tracks.
Florida Kilos and Money Power Glory was the only two that really engaged me.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Shades of Cool is by far my favourite so far, will get back to you. When I listen to it with more attention. I still trying to digest (in the way possible) deadmau5's new album.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> It's not a great album imho. Pales, absolutely, in comparison to Born to Die and her previous unreleased works (both in album and single format). I'm rather disappointed. (But, I love Florida Kilos.)


Really? Why do you say that? She mentioned before the album release that this would be much "darker," I didn't know what to expect, but when I heard it finally, it blew my fkn mind.

She's outdone herself imo. You can hear that she's more comfortable and confident in her artistic ability and style. I've had the entire album on repeat since I got hold of it... Some songs I love more than others, of course, but I love it. She takes me back to a time I wasn't even born in and still makes me want to jump right in there with her.

And the amount of raw sensuality on this album is off the fkn charts.... Ahhhhhhhhhhhh love it sooooooo sooooooo much.

But, if I knew this kind of person in real life, I'd hand her the rope and tell her to get on with it quietly in a corner. She's histrionic, sure, but this is just imagination. None of it is real even though she wants to believe.

edit: Florida Kilos ROCKS.

edit, edit: It sounds better on my speakers with the "Party" equaliser on. Lol!


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

JungleDelRey said:


> Really? Why do you say that? She mentioned before the album release that this would be much "darker," I didn't know what to expect, but when I heard it finally, it blew my fkn mind.


From a melodical, instrumental point of view, yes, her songs are 'pretty'. But her lyrics are cheap. It's disappointing to hear someone resort to stealing lyrics about domestic violence when they've written so amazingly in the past (Check out her song Elvis, beautiful).

When someone uses the same stereotypical lyrics in their songs, it starts to get boring and like as if she can't be bothered to write about anything else or challenge herself. I can't personally relate to the songs on this album but it's nice if others can. Obviously they can, it's been doing really well which I'm pleased for Lana for. 

But to me, I think it's absolute sacrilege that people are claiming it's better than Born to Die or her previous unreleased works. It's like, have you even _listened_ to those albums?


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> From a melodical, instrumental point of view, yes, her songs are 'pretty'. But her lyrics are cheap. It's disappointing to hear someone resort to stealing lyrics about domestic violence when they've written so amazingly in the past (Check out her song Elvis, beautiful).
> 
> When someone uses the same stereotypical lyrics in their songs, it starts to get boring and like as if she can't be bothered to write about anything else or challenge herself. I can't personally relate to the songs on this album but it's nice if others can. Obviously they can, it's been doing really well which I'm pleased for Lana for.
> 
> But to me, I think it's absolute sacrilege that people are claiming it's better than Born to Die or her previous unreleased works. It's like, have you even _listened_ to those albums?


Your entire post can be summed up as "it's a bit too mainstream for me because I prefer folk-y tracks."

I hadn't heard Elvis until today... I don't really like it, it's not the type of music I enjoy, it's way too folk-y for me.

It appears, then, that your problem is with this album's more decadent and "pop" genre appeal, not the niche, "I'm so retro and out there" appeal.

I don't agree that her lyrics are stereotypical. She may explore very common themes of power, money, love, drug abuse, naïveté, exploitation, but imo, it's different this time. She's exploring it from a side that we don't really see all too often nowadays because it's being drowned out under all the "feminist" din.

Either way, thanks for your explanation, it doesn't really make me change my mind though.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

JungleDelRey said:


> Your entire post can be summed up as "it's a bit too mainstream for me because I prefer folk-y tracks."
> 
> I hadn't heard Elvis until today... I don't really like it, it's not the type of music I enjoy, it's way too folk-y for me.
> 
> ...


Well, no I'm not one of those 'they're/he/she's popular, therefore I'm no longer a fan'. That's rather presumptuous. Just voicing my own opinions is all. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions?

Nothing to do with feminism; glamourizing domestic violence, using already used ~controversial~ lyrics isn't cool.

I was talking about the lyrics in Elvis which are beautiful. The whole song is beautiful but the lyrics are like a poem which flow perfectly, instead of this 'red dress, my baby, pale moonlight' rubbish she keeps recycling these days. But I've said countless of times I'm a huge fan and I'm glad of her success, not pissed off with her success or that she's gaining more fans; that's silly.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Well, no I'm not one of those 'they're/he/she's popular, therefore I'm no longer a fan'. That's rather presumptuous. Just voicing my own opinions is all. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions?
> 
> Nothing to do with feminism; glamourizing domestic violence, using already used ~controversial~ lyrics isn't cool.


I didn't say you weren't a fan anymore, your problem with the album is that it explores more mainstream i.e., "stereotypical" topics, yes? Whether or not you're no longer a fan didn't really cross my mind.

Our opinions are way too different for there to be any sort of agreement, I'm not sure I would say she's glamorising domestic violence... she's talking about it, and talking about how it makes her "feel" sure, but the sombre tone presented throughout doesn't cross me as "glamorising."

I'm not sure of any point in the album where she doesn't acknowledge the fact that these relationships are abusive/not what she really wants/ not all that they seem and she wants it anyway because she's being powerhungry/naive/stupid/dumb etc... In which case, she's not really glamorising it?



> I was talking about the lyrics in Elvis which are beautiful. The whole song is beautiful but the lyrics are like a poem which flow perfectly, instead of this 'red dress, my baby, pale moonlight' rubbish she keeps recycling these days.


Meh, I can forgive her for recycling a few lines on an album that explores the same themes throughout. I really am not a fan of Elvis, though the lyrics are beautiful, the music and the way its sung is like nails to a chalkboard for me.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

JungleDelRey said:


> I didn't say you weren't a fan anymore, your problem with the album is that it explores more mainstream i.e., "stereotypical" topics, yes? Whether or not you're no longer a fan didn't really cross my mind.
> 
> Our opinions are way too different for there to be any sort of agreement,* I'm not sure I would say she's glamorising domestic violence... she's talking about it, and talking about how it makes her "feel" sure, but the sombre tone presented throughout doesn't cross me as "glamorising."*


The whole of Ultraviolence [song] is basically glamourizing domestic violence. She could be given a pass if it were just violence but it's very clearly domestic violence; her partners physically/mentally abusing her. I'm just saying if she's basing an album around that it's nagl. She's been in the press talking about death a lot too, I don't think she has a filter which can be a good or bad thing depending on the subject but she can do a lot better than to resort to 'shock tactics' to sell records. 

It's concerning if little girls are going around seeing 'he hit me and it felt like a kiss' and 'he hurt me and it felt like true love', no?


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> The whole of Ultraviolence [song] is basically glamourizing domestic violence. She could be given a pass if it were just violence but it's very clearly domestic violence; her partners physically/mentally abusing her. I'm just saying if she's basing an album around that it's nagl. She's been in the press talking about death a lot too, I don't think she has a filter which can be a good or bad thing depending on the subject but she can do a lot better than to resort to 'shock tactics' to sell records.
> 
> It's concerning if little girls are going around seeing 'he hit me and it felt like a kiss' and 'he hurt me and it felt like true love', no?


Oh, I don't really listen to that song. Ha. It sounded really boring. Meh, I don't know man, I'm yet to meet a 14 year old who takes Lana Del Rey seriously. Actually, I don't hang around any 14 year old girls so I have no idea how they are reacting to this album... It's clearly not for them...

But I think we're insulting their intelligence by assuming they'll listen to a song called "ultraviolence" [hint: it's in the title] and say "yeah, mummy I want THAT" unless they already have a lot of psychological issues in which case, without a dedicated therapist, they are beyond help.

Also, yeah the glamorising of death lately is a bit... ? I don't think she has a filter either. I just think she's addicted to sadness, loss, and things that are "empty," death unfortunately is such a easy motif to use in that case. Will she actually go over the edge and kill herself? Doubt it. But we'll see.

I don't think she's trying to shock, she literally is obsessed with these topics, it's all she thinks about and talks about. All the time. It's not meant to "shock" it's meant to be about her, being her.

edit: why would we give her a pass if it's just violence and not domestic violence? Sounds like a feminist issue to me, non?

edit, edit: Got this off Wiki, which I was sure was her stance on the issue anyway:



> However, Feeney [of NME] pointed out that Del Rey would "likely" not endorse the "screwed-up tales of vice and luxury" her character, Lana Del Rey, sings about.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

JungleDelRey said:


> Oh, I don't really listen to that song. Ha. It sounded really boring. Meh, I don't know man, I'm yet to meet a 14 year old who takes Lana Del Rey seriously. Actually, I don't hang around any 14 year old girls so I have no idea how they are reacting to this album... It's clearly not for them...
> 
> But I think we're insulting their intelligence by assuming they'll listen to a song called "ultraviolence" [hint: it's in the title] and say "yeah, mummy I want THAT" unless they already have a lot of psychological issues in which case, without a dedicated therapist, they are beyond help.
> 
> ...


Because violence tends to be a human issue where a lot of people can encounter it and talk about it and domestic violence occurs most'ly towards women so she's doing women a disservice by making that seem entertaining and justified. I can't explain it but I feel as if it effects people differently.

Yes, a lot of young girls and boys are impressionable towards musicians and feel a lot of what they say is truth and take it as gospel. It's because they're not taught any different. It seems silly to you and I that people would be easily brainwashed like that but it happens. Very easy to do that as young people's minds are basically tabula rasa.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Because violence tends to be a human issue where a lot of people can encounter it and talk about it and *domestic violence occurs most'ly towards women so she's doing women a disservice by making that seem entertaining and justified*. I can't explain it but I feel as if it effects people differently.
> 
> Yes, a lot of young girls and boys are impressionable towards musicians and feel a lot of what they say is truth and take it as gospel. It's because they're not taught any different. It seems silly to you and I that people would be easily brainwashed like that but it happens. Very easy to do that as young people's minds are basically tabula rasa.


Right, so when I first mentioned feminism, and you dismissed it... You kinda dismissed it a little too early.... This is what I'm talking about, we don't ever hear this side of domestic violence, because feminist theory drowns it out or throws it out as "wrong" very quickly. No fkn doubt, violence, of any kind, is "wrong," but that's not what this album is about.

And, as you can see, Lana Del Rey doesn't actually endorse it.... She's not real, she's just singing as someone else who is going through this and Del Rey is exploring the feelings and emotions within; namely sadness and a bit of unhealthy addiction thrown in too for a little razzle dazzle.

Also, yeah young children are impressionable, but they're not retarded, if they had someone explain to them _why _these themes were "bad" I'm sure they'd get it. Like we both agree, they need to be taught. Not every kid gets that though, sad, "but it happens."


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

So I just listened to all the songs on the album. (thx youtube for illegally uploading it <3)

I liked #4 and #11... Didn't really like the rest. They were "meh."

edit:

4. Brooklyn Baby
11. The Other Woman


----------



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Superfluous said:


> In short: being fake isn't an excuse deemed plausible to me anymore.


Agreed. Feelings are feelings, even if they are under the guise of a persona. Similar to sexuality... Maybe there's a "cause" but in the end... you simply are who you are. If I don't like something, then I don't like it

There have been countless artists exploring the nature of authenticity, questioning and testing the waters of what is real, etc. in regards to the persona, because everyone carries a disguise that is difficult, if not impossible, to shake, just as one's soul (perhaps) is indivisible from its body. David Lynch (who is often brought up with del Rey's melancholia or eerie retro vibes) loves to peel the veneer off seemingly "normal" society. I would love to harp on about how "authentic" I am, but what if authenticity become its own sort of fraudulence? How much of my "true self" can another _*really *_see?

_"Is a dream a lie if it don't come true? Or is it something worse?"_

The split between the public and private self and moreover, those personas can be avatars of one's inner doubts and demons. Ingmar Bergman's Persona comes to mind. John Cassavetes' famed acting stylizations and experimentations really pushed into interesting, uncomfortable territory—not simply the ambiguity of feeling he presents (i.e., you couldn't tell whether he was going to hug you or kill you), but also the ferocious commitment to the performance. 

I see that commitment and consistency in del Rey to forging a character and persona, regardless of "being fake" (whatever that even means).

"All the world's a stage" after all.
@fourtines I think del Rey strikes me as a very private individual, so I'm not sure we'll ever know her actual experiences. Regardless, I respect the feeling she conveys, the mood, and the atmosphere... for me, the feeling is the thing. (I have not listened to the new album or any tracks yet, but I look forward to it). del Rey's persona is similar in essence to Slim Shady, perhaps representative of the id-like carnal impulses to throw caution to the wind and shed the shackles of ego and superego. 

What matters is the feeling. Eminem need not actually kill his wife in order for "Kim" to have meaning or power. The power is in that raw love/hate, anger and emotion ("I hate you! Oh god, I love you!").

~

On a similar note, while I can sorta see where the "selling out" argument comes from (i.e., going through the motions), I think this criticism has a tendency to devolve into blanket statements that reject anything popular on the grounds that it's "for the money." Art simply IS. If I don't like it and it doesn't speak to me, I don't listen to it.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

OP, can you add a poll to this thread still? So we can see what people's favourite songs are. I can't pick between 'I Fucked My Way Up To The Top,' 'Florida Kilos,' 'Money Power Glory,' 'Brooklyn Baby'. 'West Coast' and 'Shades of Cool' also awesome but they've been released as singles so I've heard them a thousand times already.


----------



## gestalt (Feb 15, 2011)

Wow, she sure does know how to suck corporate cock. Whoever invented autotune is going to hell.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I love the album. I think it's extremely dark (with an upbeat song mixed in like, twice). The song "Old Money" is especially beautiful to me. I could careless about Lana Del Rey as a person. I don't know her personally (and I doubt anyone in this thread does). What I care about is how the music makes me feel. 

And, to be honest, I'm the type who pays more attention to the music itself and less to the vocals/lyrics.

As far as the themes go and the controversy (drugs, domestic violence, ect), I don't see it as romanticizing these themes so much as delving into topics most are too fearful to breach. I think it's admirable for someone to be able to be so personal and open with their struggles. It isn't endorsement; it's being vulnerable and honest.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm not sure why her being "fake" even matters. If she hasn't really had enough time to find and grow into a personality of her own, what else can we expect from her really? She's 28/29 I believe. And everyone goes through a period of trying out different things to see which "fits" and it's always struck me that this is what Lana Del Rey is doing.

Perhaps her music is a representation of her personal journey and evolution of Self, in which case, all her songs and albums make sense. She's not real because she really doesn't know who she is yet. She has feelings, relationships and experiences (sadness, abusive relationships, power, money, hurt, etc) and she's trying to make sense of them all by adopting different personas and dating different people to see where she actually "fits."

This she has said countless times in her interviews, she's not really sure who she is yet - she's never denied that.

I think it's really harsh to dismiss her work as fake, because, well, what else can we really expect from her? In every interview it is obvious that Elizabeth Grant is skin deep and Lana Del Rey is the persona she lives through. We've all done that at some point in our lives, and the fact that she's so open about it makes me have a lot of respect for her. Usually, though, you learn to grow out of it as you become more comfortable in who you are, but for someone with her background (google Boarding School Syndrome and of course, her alcohol dependency issues in the past), it's little wonder why she still isn't there yet.

I guess it's one of those things you either get or you don't. I know what it's like to "live through" other people and personas so I definitely stand firm in the former camp. But this idea of growing into one's self is a Ennegram 9 central focus point, so I was never not going to get it.

edit: Coincidentally, the movie "American Hustle" explores the topic of Identity really well too, so if anyone has seen that they'll get what I mean when I say she's not real because she doesn't know what real is, yet. If ever.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Grehoy said:


> She looks like an ESFP before surgery and an ESFJ afterwards.


I think she's an ISFP who tries to convey an FJ stereotype artistically. I have seen people say the opposite, that she's an INFJ personifying SFP but I am going to have to disagree with that because I don't feel her as an Ni dom at all, she doesn't remind me anything of Thom Yorke of Radiohead, Lana Del Rey lives in her body too much and is too concerned with the image, and other artists who share her personality type have pulled similar stunts (like David Bowie). I do think she has Ni and that's why she's conceptual with her image, but the image and Americana and popular culture seem to be the Se focus of her Ni conceptualism, rather than something really wacky or experimental or even overtly political. She's more subtly political, like it's an extension of her own personal experience (Fi).

Also she reminds me of David Lynch in her Se/Ni approach to time. I think he too is an ISFP.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungleDelRey said:


> I'm not sure why her being "fake" even matters. If she hasn't really had enough time to find and grow into a personality of her own, what else can we expect from her really? She's 28/29 I believe. And everyone goes through a period of trying out different things to see which "fits" and it's always struck me that this is what Lana Del Rey is doing.
> 
> Perhaps her music is a representation of her personal journey and evolution of Self, in which case, all her songs and albums make sense. She's not real because she really doesn't know who she is yet. She has feelings, relationships and experiences (sadness, abusive relationships, power, money, hurt, etc) and she's trying to make sense of them all by adopting different personas and dating different people to see where she actually "fits."
> 
> ...


She's a goddamn fucking performer. If a performer can't play multiple personalities, dress up, or have Old Hollywood as a theme, then who the fuck can??? It makes no sense to me!!! If anything, I think her manner of doing so is very authentic. 

What the hell is "real"? Singing in your sweat pants and tee shirt on a bare stage?


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> The whole of Ultraviolence [song] is basically glamourizing domestic violence. She could be given a pass if it were just violence but it's very clearly domestic violence; her partners physically/mentally abusing her. I'm just saying if she's basing an album around that it's nagl. She's been in the press talking about death a lot too, I don't think she has a filter which can be a good or bad thing depending on the subject but she can do a lot better than to resort to 'shock tactics' to sell records.
> 
> It's concerning if little girls are going around seeing 'he hit me and it felt like a kiss' and 'he hurt me and it felt like true love', no?


I don't think Lana Del Rey is making albums for little girls. Her albums seem very much grown up and for adults, not the tween set. If children incidentally hear Lana Del Rey, it's up to their parents to discuss it with them, just like my step grandmother explained the song Darling Nikki by Prince to me when I was eight.

I'm glad that she actually personifies what she's singing about. She plays the whore, the victim of domestic violence, she's not afraid to BE or at least REPRESENT that woman, she's not preachy or directive about it. She ain't no INFJ. I think if she were NFJ she would be a lot more ...um...like teacher-y about it, like more careful to be politically correct and guide the public towards an Fe ethic.

Lana Del Rey lets you make up your own mind. And don't get me wrong, btw, I am not bashing NFJs. I just find it implausible that she is one, I have known several NFJs and they seem the type more likely to personify what they want you to be. Like they live by example. They are very concerned that they would set a good example, like Oprah and Jesus and Hitler.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Well, no I'm not one of those 'they're/he/she's popular, therefore I'm no longer a fan'. That's rather presumptuous. Just voicing my own opinions is all. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions?
> 
> Nothing to do with feminism; glamourizing domestic violence, using already used ~controversial~ lyrics isn't cool.
> 
> I was talking about the lyrics in Elvis which are beautiful. The whole song is beautiful but the lyrics are like a poem which flow perfectly, instead of this 'red dress, my baby, pale moonlight' rubbish she keeps recycling these days. But I've said countless of times I'm a huge fan and I'm glad of her success, not pissed off with her success or that she's gaining more fans; that's silly.


Lana is creating an experience. That is all. I can tell you as a fan of Lana I look to her almost as an escape, and I think she projects the landscape of her mind, and I think she probably has struggled emotionally with how she comes to terms with some of her own questionable experiences. It helps me to process some of my own feelings about things. I don't think she's trying to "challenge" anyone, I don't think she's an E6 like Eminem, then again Eminem ISFP also creates "experiences" - The Eminem Show et al - I think Lana is either an E4 or E9 who explores her own navel or is in some escapist E9 abyss of unrealistic detachment and fantasies of perfect love. I saw her once in an interview say she would "say nothing" to her critics. I'm thinking E9.


----------



## ElliCat (May 4, 2014)

@fourtines I too thought ISFP and was tossing up between 4 and 9 core after reading some interviews. I haven't made up my mind yet. I suppose it doesn't matter in the end but I get curious.

I actually thought Born to Die was patchy; I love some songs (Born to Die, Video Games, Off to the Races) and the rest never really stuck. 

*hides*


I feel like Ultraviolence is more coherent but went too far the other way in that there's not enough of a change of pace for me. I love the style - dark and gloomy and oh, her _voice!_ - but I always get bored halfway through. Maybe I just haven't been in the mood yet. It sounds _amazing_ when I hook my laptop up to the good speakers though.

Heard West Coast a million times on the radio and I'm still not sick of it so I think it's love. Shades of Cool is great too. Nothing else is really coming to mind yet but I don't expect any album to make an impression on me when I've only listened to it twice.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> But to me, I think it's absolute sacrilege that people are claiming it's better than Born to Die or her previous unreleased works. It's like, have you even _listened_ to those albums?


I am responding specifically to this, having listened to Lana Del Rey on a loop of different songs for hours, and I can tell you that I love almost everything by her, including Chelsea Hotel 2, Diet Mountain Dew, Kinda Outta Luck and Queen of the Gas Station, but I think some of the worst crap she's done are songs like Fake Diamond and Prom Song, they don't even sound good, just cheap and plastic, I honestly also get a little annoyed with Driving in Cars With Boys...I think songs like Florida Kilos and West Coast are great, and I like the little subsection of the album Old Money/Sad Girl/Fucked My Way Up To the Top ...Old Money has really grown on me a lot, it kind of seeps into my bones. I agree that she has a lot of fantastic music that some people probably haven't heard, but really come on, she has a few crappy songs here and there, every artist does, and this album isn't some sudden failure, it's just different. In some ways I actually think it's more mature. Introspective.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

> What the hell is "real"? Singing in your sweat pants and tee shirt on a bare stage?


She, as Lizzy Grant, used to basically do that.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Lana is creating an experience. That is all. I can tell you as a fan of Lana I look to her almost as an escape, and I think she projects the landscape of her mind, and I think she probably has struggled emotionally with how she comes to terms with some of her own questionable experiences. It helps me to process some of my own feelings about things. I don't think she's trying to "challenge" anyone, I don't think she's an E6 like Eminem, then again Eminem ISFP also creates "experiences" - The Eminem Show et al - I think Lana is either an E4 or E9 who explores her own navel or is in some escapist E9 abyss of unrealistic detachment and fantasies of perfect love. I saw her once in an interview say she would "say nothing" to her critics. I'm thinking E9.


 I relate with her so much I think she's a E9 but I can definitely see signs of E4 in her in the way her artistic ability comes "alive" when she shares her experiences with you, you almost feel like you're right there with her.



isingthebodyelectric said:


> She, as Lizzy Grant, used to basically do that.



What if that was just a phase she was trying out? And it wasn't really her? She also went through a "Gangsta Baby" phase under Elizabeth Grant.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

She seemed to enjoy that from the early videos, that's all I'm saying.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungleDelRey said:


> I relate with her so much I think she's a E9 but I can definitely see signs of E4 in her in the way her artistic ability comes "alive" when she shares her experiences with you, you almost feel like you're right there with her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would guess she's a 9w1, 4w3, 6w7 or 7w6

I relate to her too but I think she is most probably a 9. I think 6 may be her head fix bc of her timidity on stage and her playing at being bad (like the whole femme fatale thing, is it wrong that I think it's kinda fun when I hit you in the back of the head with a gun, my daddy's in the trunk of his brand new truck, I really want him back, but im kinda outta luck) but she actually doesn't seem principally polarizing or confrontational, very much the opposite, like a 9.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> She seemed to enjoy that from the early videos, that's all I'm saying.


I think it's very possible that she just debuted as Lizzy Grant as an eighteen year old, bc she was an eighteen year old, and didn't know what else to do, but found her niche creatively in her twenties. The similarity to David Lynch is actually authentic, she didn't even know who he was until people asked if she was influenced by him, so she said she later watched his movies and became a fan. I think she just came into her full artistic expression in her twenties, she is twenty eight now, and Lizzy Grant is three albums ago.

I swear I have NEVER seen anyone make this big a deal about Eminem being Marshall Mathers, or Marilyn Manson being Brian whomever, or complain about Elton John or David Bowie and their costumes, the way I have seen people attack Lana Del Rey. I find it bizarre and annoying, almost like it's some cruel trendy game brought on by the reality tv subset.


----------



## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

There's something about her image that I don't really like, she comes off kind of like a melodramatic teenager. It seems like she's trying to become a 'tortured artist' icon like Marilyn Monroe, which is kind of narcissistic because Marilyn Monroe never took herself half as seriously as Lana does and reading the lyrics to "Fucked My Way To The Top" makes it difficult to like her. I know depression can affect anyone and it doesn't matter how much they appear to have achieved on a superficial level but would it kill her to laugh or make one single joke in her lifetime? Because the people she seems to idolise are more self-effacing.

But maybe she's a totally different person to her public persona and I'm not out there making music so maybe I shouldn't judge her. She's got some good songs too.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Patrick_1 said:


> There's something about her image that I don't really like, she comes off kind of like a melodramatic teenager. It seems like she's trying to become a 'tortured artist' icon like Marilyn Monroe, which is kind of narcissistic because Marilyn Monroe never took herself half as seriously as Lana does and reading the lyrics to "Fucked My Way To The Top" makes it difficult to like her. I know depression can affect anyone and it doesn't matter how much they appear to have achieved on a superficial level but would it kill her to laugh or make one single joke in her lifetime? Because the people she seems to idolise are more self-effacing.
> 
> But maybe she's a totally different person to her public persona and I'm not out there making music so maybe I shouldn't judge her. She's got some good songs too.


She is self effacing. Songs like Kinda Outta Luck are completely absurd, she also acknowledges she can't act, and has a nervous stage presence. She isn't narcissistic. If she is damaged in any way, I would guess histrionic (melodramatic, theatrical, diva, very sexual body language, intense emotions) ...however, I honestly find her regard for her own emotions refreshing among a bunch of jaded assholes in my generation. Remember that Marilyn Monroe committed suicide, and she also was an extremely melodramatic person, her marriages were unstable bc of her substance abuse and BPD clingy, hysterical behaviors. You must not know a lot about Marilyn Monroe, her mother was mentally ill, she was raised by an aunt and in foster homes, and the self effacing behavior was because she was a comedian. She was principally a comedic actress.

Enneagram 4 is definitely her heart fix and she's probably 4w3 if she's not a 9.


----------



## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

fourtines said:


> She is self effacing. Songs like Kinda Outta Luck are completely absurd, she also acknowledges she can't act, and has a nervous stage presence. She isn't narcissistic. If she is damaged in any way, I would guess histrionic (melodramatic, theatrical, diva, very sexual body language, intense emotions) ...however, I honestly find her regard for her own emotions refreshing among a bunch of jaded assholes in my generation. Remember that Marilyn Monroe committed suicide, and she also was an extremely melodramatic person, her marriages were unstable bc of her substance abuse and BPD clingy, hysterical behaviors. You must not know a lot about Marilyn Monroe, her mother was mentally ill, she was raised by an aunt and in foster homes, and the self effacing behavior was because she was a comedian. She was principally a comedic actress.
> 
> Enneagram 4 is definitely her heart fix and she's probably 4w3 if she's not a 9.


I do know those things about Marilyn Monroe.

All I'm trying to say is I dislike how she says things like "I wish I were dead" in public interviews, thinking her general dysphoria about her celebrity life is artistically important and warrants a lot of sympathy and fetishizing dying young etc. (there's nothing refreshing about that kind of self-absorption).

It sounds like you're a big fan so we'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Patrick_1 said:


> I do know those things about Marilyn Monroe.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is I dislike how she says things like "I wish I were dead" in public interviews, thinking her general dysphoria about her celebrity life is artistically important and warrants a lot of sympathy and fetishizing dying young etc. (there's nothing refreshing about that kind of self-absorption).
> 
> It sounds like you're a big fan so we'll have to agree to disagree.


I like her as an artist, in fact I love her as an artist. She probably says obnoxious things in interviews sometimes, that's common, that is why I think she's definitely not an Fe type, she isn't gracious and politically correct always, but mostly she seems very nice and not arrogant. Self absorption =/= narcissism. She could be histrionic, bipolar, depressed, or just a maladjusted E4. I haven't seen every single interview of course. I don't worship her as a person, I think she's fantastic as an artist. I can't really judge people like her anyway, I have said some really stupid obnoxious things online. Celebrities are just people.

She probably just isn't your cup of tea. Everyone is different. You never said what you think about this album.


----------



## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

fourtines said:


> I like her as an artist, in fact I love her as an artist. She probably says obnoxious things in interviews sometimes, that's common, that is why I think she's definitely not an Fe type, she isn't gracious and politically correct always, but mostly she seems very nice and not arrogant. Self absorption =/= narcissism. She could be histrionic, bipolar, depressed, or just a maladjusted E4. I haven't seen every single interview of course. I don't worship her as a person, I think she's fantastic as an artist. I can't really judge people like her anyway, I have said some really stupid obnoxious things online. Celebrities are just people.
> 
> She probably just isn't your cup of tea. Everyone is different. You never said what you think about this album.


I think it's Boarding School Syndrome and depression.

I doubt she's histrionic, just because she likes to wave her sexuality in your face doesn't mean there's something wrong with her. Plus, she doesn't really do it in interviews, in fact, she refuses to talk much about her relationships in interviews.

I doubt she's bipolar, she is always talking about how quiet and shy she is, which means she doesn't go through the manic stage that comes with bipolar disorder.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungleDelRey said:


> I think it's Boarding School Syndrome and depression.
> 
> I doubt she's histrionic, just because she likes to wave her sexuality in your face doesn't mean there's something wrong with her. Plus, she doesn't really do it in interviews, in fact, she refuses to talk much about her relationships in interviews.
> 
> I doubt she's bipolar, she is always talking about how quiet and shy she is, which means she doesn't go through the manic stage that comes with bipolar disorder.


Well he suggested that she's a narcissist, and I doubt that very seriously. Histrionics also are melodramatic and seek attention.

I don't know, it doesn't matter, if everyone were the same life would be boring, and I actually relate to her in some ways I don't think she's as bad as some celebrities out there by a huge margin, but that's just me. 

People always want to talk about her or judge her as a person and I don't understand it, but I guess that's what people do to celebrities. Van Gogh cut his ear off and sent it to a prostitute, but we still regard his art as some of the best in the world.

I think it's possible he just doesn't like shoe gazey stuff and probably disagreed with her sexual morals or something. That's fine. That's just a difference of opinion. I think this album is great, the more I listen the more I like it, it's musically quite powerful in a melodic romantic way.

I think some people always hate a famous artists next album after a big chart topper. Born to Die is more "catchy" it's like the Under the Pink of Tori Amos albums. 

I mostly have a problem with people who call her fake I think that's retarded given the theatrics and name changes of some of the best regarded musical performers of the last fifty years. Even Marilyn Monroe was born Norma Jean Daugherty.


----------

