# Hello SJ's, what do you think of NT's?



## Ballast

Adrift said:


> ISFPs: 33% Dems, 26% Repubs
> ESFPs: 39% Dems, 31% Repubs
> 
> Looking at the data more closely, it's the SFPs; the SFJs actually prefer Republicans.
> @_Ballast_ see, I'm right once again.


Looking at that source you gave, it seems:

INTJ: 19% Dems, 40% Rep
INTP: 17% Dems, 34% Rep
ENTP: 26% Dems, 28% Rep
ENTJ: 26% Dems, 40% Rep

Going by this alone it would seem more NTs vote republican than democrat. I believe your point was the reverse?


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## Elveni

I can't speak for all NTs, but in the ENTP community there seems to be a lot of contempt for SJs (esp. ESFJs and ISTJs). I don't doubt that the feeling is mutual, pretty much everyone I know of who hates me is an SJ.

Also, when did this thread become a platform for political debate? It's distracting from the whole goddamn purpose of it.


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## Adrift

Elveni said:


> Also, when did this thread become a platform for political debate? It's distracting from the whole goddamn purpose of it.


It's not a debate. I'm explaining why NTs tend to side with NFs on subjects such as climate change (because an NT asked me). Also, this thread is for SJ's opinion of NTs. I have noticed that the OP seems upset by my posts, so I'll exit this thread.


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## MrsAndrewJacoby

Elveni said:


> I can't speak for all NTs, but *in the ENTP community there seems to be a lot of contempt for SJs (esp. ESFJs and ISTJs). I don't doubt that the feeling is mutual,* pretty much everyone I know of who hates me is an SJ.
> 
> Also, when did this thread become a platform for political debate? It's distracting from the whole goddamn purpose of it.


I think this may have something to do with how our functions map out. It's like we speak another language. TRULY no offence meant, but IME, ENTP'S tend to seem arrogant, harsh, and even rude, but I'll admit it's likely a perception thing on my part. I'm not a dry or dark humor type of person (something NT's seem to love) and I always desire everyone to 'play nice' so to speak. But, overall, I find NT's fascinating, especially XNTJ's. They always seem to know what they're doing and be good at accomplishing what they put their minds to. As an ISFJ, I sometimes find it hard to accomplish my goals because of not knowing how to take charge of the situation. I struggle with making objective decisions and not letting my feelings sway me, so I appreciate that NT's don't let emotions and feelings exert unnecessary power over their decisions. Simply put, you guys are cool! :happy:


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## Shale

I have to say that is an interesting dialogue between @_Adrift_ and @_Ballast_, a prime example of how two minds see things so differently. I do tend to side with @_Adrift_ in his theory, but I might add that I think age plays an integral part in the discussion. This is not on a level of maturity, but from the standpoint of Si using factual history and personal experience (socio-economic class?) history to support opinions.

Gen Dems: The Party


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## Jehneefur

My dad is an INTJ and growing up, his comments were usually very harsh and demeaning, I took them very personally but he just laughed everything off. However, I'm married to an INTP and we think very differently but we work things out well, like every relationship- it takes work but I'm happy!

I'm still trying to forgive my dad for his lack of sensitivity with his words and actions.


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## Ballast

Shale said:


> I have to say that is an interesting dialogue between @_Adrift_ and @_Ballast_, a prime example of how two minds see things so differently. I do tend to side with @_Adrift_ in his theory, but I might add that I think age plays an integral part in the discussion. This is not on a level of maturity, but from the standpoint of Si using factual history and personal experience (socio-economic class?) history to support opinions.
> 
> Gen Dems: The Party


Well, again, according to the above study NTs seem to vote Republican more than Democrat, and Adrift's suggestion was that Ns in general and NTs specifically tended to be of the mindset to avoid the _obvious_ conservative conclusion, which isn't supported by the above facts. So if we take Adrift's assertion at the level of "I disagree with the NTs I've met because they tend to care about different facets of experience than me" I will accept it. But if we take it at the level of "I disagree with NTs because their, shall we say, _N perspective_ prevents them from the obvious conclusion that my political opinions are right" I'm going to have to say, uh, no.


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## Jordgubb

Don't know that I know any.... I'll have to think about this. I may know a few if the description above is true... Which would be why I don't care to be around them too often.


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## AST

As a strong Senser, I love love _love _intuitives. They just see so many things that I don't know [and vice versa, we work well together ] and can detect the things I, as an ISFJ, want to say, but can't bring myself to. So I love both NFs and NTs... I don't know near as many NTs, and the ones I do know are fairly new to me, so it is an adjustment, but I think there is a whole bunch of potential here. With NFs, it seems like one of us is going way too emotional at any given point. :frustrating:


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## King Nothing

They're alright, at worst arrogant.


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## Volant

They are crunchy on the outside with a chewy center.


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## Pinion

Volant said:


> They are crunchy on the outside with a chewy center.


My NT coworker has no chewiness under the crunchy exterior. It's just more crunch, like a Cocoa Puff or something.


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## MrsAndrewJacoby

Volant said:


> They are crunchy on the outside with a chewy center.


Wow! That's a *perfect* description of NT's.  Heh, now I want some M&M's or something.


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## seiei

I've always found this interesting. The only problem I've had with SJs (primarily ESTJ / ISTJ) was my disregard for their rules, that to me were usually petty and that I was utterly unaware of (and still would not follow when made aware of them.) I can respect their use of Te, although our Ni and Si don't get along. I do extremely well working with them, but not when they're in charge of me.


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## seiei

SJs how would you react to having an NT superior? NTJ I mean, even I shiver at the thought of an NTP superior.


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## Volant

MrsAndrewJacoby said:


> Wow! That's a *perfect* description of NT's.  Heh, now I want some M&M's or something.


Haha, me, too XD I've heard the INTJ in particular be described as a "cherry cordial." Yummy...


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## Pinion

seiei said:


> SJs how would you react to having an NT superior? NTJ I mean, even I shiver at the thought of an NTP superior.


I'm getting tutoring from a possible xNTJ, since my instructor in that class is a hopeless scatterbrain. Works fantastic and I'm ahead of the class.


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## MrsAndrewJacoby

seiei said:


> SJs how would you react to having an NT superior? NTJ I mean, even I shiver at the thought of an NTP superior.


I'd probably do fine. I have no problem taking a subordinate role; I follow rules and instructions well also. (Even when I don't understand them or they don't make sense I figure the rules are there for a reason.) The only issue I think could be the NTJ's insistence on efficiency. I'm a painstakingly thorough type of person and tend to get lost in the details. I don't do my job very quickly, but I do it very well. As long as I had reasonable time to accomplish my work, I'd be okay. 

Oh, I also forgot. I don't need a lot of praise, but CONSTANT criticism can make me anxious and prone to making mistakes, so an NT supervisor would have to take that into consideration as well.


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## Judson Joist

Adrift said:


> Basically, I see the entirety of liberalism (from gun control, school choice, minimum wage, redistribution of money, tax policy, etc.) as non-sensical, irrational rubbish embraced by the non-thinking types. It's a world where empirical evidence is irrelevant and where intention trumps results everytime. They're embracing the unfounding of America; everything the founders fought for, these non-thinking types have rejected


I hereby induct you into The Revolution. Nationalism today! Nationalism tomorrow! Nationalism forever!
And by "Nationalism," I mean "Constitutional Republicanism" - the only form of Nationalism worthy to be called "Nationalism" (because _*The People are Nation*_, not "the state"). Socialism and fascism are for pansies. Anyone who values "order" over Liberty is a pansy. Anyone who needs "the state" to tell them what's what or to establish "order" in their lives is a pansy.
:mellow:
*Rise forth with a clenched fist!

*


Volant said:


> I've heard the INTJ in particular be described as a "cherry cordial."


D'aaaaw!
:blushed:


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## Volant

Judson Joist said:


> D'aaaaw!
> :blushed:


Yeeeeeeah. http://portjeffersonfrigate.com/shop/image.php?type=P&id=100 XD


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## Strelok

Revoker said:


> I find the NT category as useless. I'll make judgments on individuals, ideas, or specific personality traits without any issues. Once you get into large swaths of people without a unifying trait then it becomes pointless really, too little data at that point. When you are honestly trying to conjure up traits that accuracy encompass as broad a range as INTP and ENTJ, totally different function sets and personalities as opposed to groupings that focus on a single cognitive ability such as SJ or SP. With SJ/SP, you are effectively asking for opinion on Si and Se, whereas with NT's then there really isn't anything connecting them beyond Keirsey's attempt to hammer the Jungian system into the four humors.


I've always thought that putting NPs and NJs into a single temperament was dumb. I get along better with STPs than NTJs.


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## 68097

I generally like NTPs. 

NTJs and I tend to clash more.


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## akinomagetro

Hmm... I kind of find this thread a bit fascinating.

I don't mind some S calling us NTs useless. But it does bother me a bit that they are doing it in the comfort of the world NTs have helped create.

Darwin, Gates, Newton, DaVinci, Einstein, Edison, Tesla

Envisioning / planning a future beyond imagination is what we NTs do best. I think the S types can help keep us grounded/in check - it's something I appreciate about them.


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## Coburn

akinomagetro said:


> Hmm... I kind of find this thread a bit fascinating.
> 
> I don't mind some S calling us NTs useless. But it does bother me a bit that they are doing it in the comfort of the world NTs have helped create.
> 
> Darwin, Gates, Newton, DaVinci, Einstein, Edison, Tesla
> 
> Envisioning / planning a future beyond imagination is what we NTs do best. I think the S types can help keep us grounded/in check - it's something I appreciate about them.


It's pushback from being on a website dominated by N types acting as if S types are akin to modern-day cavemen.

It's not right, but it's most likely why you're seeing such attitude.


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## Strelok

Pilot said:


> It's pushback from being on a website dominated by N types acting as if S types are akin to modern-day cavemen.


That's just pushback from living in a society dominated by S (though most especially SJ) types acting as if N types (and especially NP types) are black people and it's the deep-south several decades ago.


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## Coburn

Strelok said:


> That's just pushback from living in a society dominated by S (though most especially SJ) types acting as if N types (and especially NP types) are black people and it's the deep-south several decades ago.


Preach your ignorance elsewhere. Nobody's buying.


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## Revoker

akinomagetro said:


> Hmm... I kind of find this thread a bit fascinating.
> 
> I don't mind some S calling us NTs useless. But it does bother me a bit that they are doing it in the comfort of the world NTs have helped create.
> 
> Darwin, Gates, Newton, DaVinci, Einstein, Edison, Tesla
> 
> Envisioning / planning a future beyond imagination is what we NTs do best. I think the S types can help keep us grounded/in check - it's something I appreciate about them.


The only person who used the word useless was me, and it was in reference to the collective grouping of NT within the mbti branch which is not unified by any particular cognitive trait, which I find that it makes comprehensive judgement over the whole NT category as irrelevant. When you judge NT you are doing so by imagined archetypes rather than any particular observed personality trait, which is how we digest anything relating to personalities other than our own.

You can also pretend to be any of the names you listed, but S types aren't here to keep you grounded, that's your own responsibility.


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## akinomagetro

Revoker said:


> The only person who used the word useless was me, and it was in reference to the collective grouping of NT within the mbti branch which is not unified by any particular cognitive trait, which I find that it makes comprehensive judgement over the whole NT category as irrelevant. When you judge NT you are doing so by imagined archetypes rather than any particular observed personality trait, which is how we digest anything relating to personalities other than our own.
> 
> You can also pretend to be any of the names you listed, but S types aren't here to keep you grounded, that's your own responsibility.


That's great. But the reason I didn't directly quote you with "useless" was because my opinion was not wholly based on your statement alone but was also built upon 

Adrifts's statement in page 1


> I see NTs as enablers of sloppy, irrational, and stupid policy decisions made by NFs like our current unhealthy INFP president.


and also from my experience with S types who are frustrated/confused with NTs for being too into their heads rather than acting. Hence, the idea of not really being helpful or pretty much "useless".

On a side note, it wouldn't make sense to single your statement out because your type is unknown and I can't use you as a reference for S opinion.

However, I believe I understand your point on the collective grouping not unified by a cognitive trait thing and your point that these are imagined archetypes rather than observed personality traits, I really don't have a problem with your opinion.

My statement about S types keeping us grounded was made in appreciation of the S types who try to keep us from getting way in over our heads. It is by no means a statement of responsibility for S types.

-------------------------------------------------



Pilot said:


> It's pushback from being on a website dominated by N types acting as if S types are akin to modern-day cavemen.
> 
> It's not right, but it's most likely why you're seeing such attitude.


Hahaha well for what it's worth, I don't see S types as cavemen. I rather admire them for being so practical.


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## _haphazard

Borderline ISFJ/ISTJ here. Currently, I have a crush on a person who claims to be INTP. I am amazed at how profound his knowledge on his interests. I'd like to be close to him because I want to know more and protect the beholder of that beautiful brain. 

Maybe NTs are masters of their interests (?).


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## Retsu

Strelok said:


> That's just pushback from living in a society dominated by S (though most especially SJ) types acting as if N types (and especially NP types) are black people and it's the deep-south several decades ago.


I hope you're joking, people aren't killed because they're Ne or Ni favouring.


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## vesper007

Adrift said:


> NTs, because they don't incorporate sensory information (empirical evidence) accept some really obviously stupid systems of belief such as socialism/communism. For a long time, I wondered why so many intelligent NTs would embrace Marxism/Socialism when we've had 80 years of failure and misery and then it hit me that it's 80 years of sensory information which intuitives don't take into account. When you think about it, The Communist Manifesto is just a classic NT mental exercise with zero accounting for sensory data. That's why intuitives tend to embrace leftist postions.


Actually, most NTs I know (including myself) tend to lean libertarian. You might categorize libertarianism as another classic example of NT mental masturbation with zero accounting for sensory data. Come to think about it, most of economics is total NT mental masturbation with zero accounting for real-world data (the whole "assume a can opener" economics joke comes to mind).

At least I can recognize the limitations of my type. Whatever.


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## vesper007

Tsubaki said:


> xNTP - I love them ^^ They are sometimes unreliable, which causes me to freak out, but they are great friends and good for long debates
> ENTJ - I don't like them... I despise their way of presenting themselves and their values seem REALLY messed up to me :dry:
> INTJ - I know only one INTJ and he is nice and everything, but we sometimes have a hard time, understanding each other's motives.


It's so interesting to me how different the NT types are. I can definitely see what brings us together, but we're all like different breeds of dogs. 

I love meeting other xNTPs. 

Got a love-hate relationship with ENTJs. My best college girlfriend apparently types as an ENTJ. She was blunt, at times borderline insulting (she called me an idiot almost daily and meant it, even though I was graduating with top honors and going off to one of the top graduate programs in the nation), often crude, but incredibly loyal and will have my back until she dies, despite being the EXACT OPPOSITE of the type of friend that you could go to if you just wanted someone to tell you that you're awesome. 

All of that made me think "WTF why are you even my friend", so we had a falling out for years until she came back and let me know basically how much my friendship meant to her. Was totally news to me! 

Also dating an ENTJ now (chronicled on other threads). His lack of any sort of emotional validation is astonishing at times and he can be devastatingly blunt to the point where I've wondered many a time if he even enjoys my company. However, he's really big on pushing me to extend beyond my limits and achieve certain life goals, whether they be athletic, professional, or otherwise. And he takes an active role in that. He'll also include me on major life decisions of his, and shares with me little vulnerabilities and even irrational phobias. But he is very far from the Facebook Boyfriend who will post love notes about you and such, or send you random texts in the middle of the day to let you know that he's thinking of you. Which sometimes throws me for a loop. 

People say the ENTJ is a tell-it-like-it-is type, but not at all when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I just went off of what my college best friend and current main squeeze say to me in terms of expressing their emotions toward me, I'd think they couldn't care less.

As far as ENTJ values, that's a person-to-person thing that's independent of type. I love my ENTJ main squeeze's values and share them. As far as my best girl friend's values, they were occasionally clashing, which, admittedly, was the cause of a lot of arguments between us.


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## stargazing grasshopper

Strelok said:


> That's just pushback from living in a society dominated by S (though most especially SJ) types acting as if N types (and especially NP types) are black people and it's the deep-south several decades ago.


LOL what's next, now that SJs are labeled the cause for perpetual victimhood & of other type individuals inability to flourish within society?


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## 68097

stargazing grasshopper said:


> LOL what's next, now that SJs are labeled the cause for perpetual victimhood & of other type individuals inability to flourish within society?


You didn't know that?

Every professor who has ever oppressed a student, mother who has said no to their kids driving the car off a cliff, and cousin who has tattled on someone for snitching a candy bar is an SJ.

WE ARE EVERYWHERE, AND WE ARE WATCHING AND JUDGING YOU.


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## peyandkeele

istj's i get along with, our te speaks to each other. My uncle is an istj and our relationship is great

isfj's on the other hand i have no good experiences with. my mom and couple of aunts and cousins are isfj's. To say the least we dont see eye to eye. they think im some arrogant know it all heartless douche bag who will grow to be old and lonely( a couple of them basically said this to me). I think they are unintelligent overly sensitive narrow minded nags, whos lack of ability to think ahead will keep them underachieving in life tbh. I think of my mom in this way to a much much lesser extent than my other isfj family members(mainly because she raised me and does understand me to a small degree). 

But i find with sj's we have the common s vs n hurdles. for example my mom hates how i constantly day dream, i hate how she allows no room for me to be in my head to draw ideas. I also hate how she will have me do tasks her way, even tho her way isn't efficient and can be arcane, she wants me to do it her way because thats simply how she did it growing up, so it must be right, in which case i face palm and proceed to do things my way when she leaves. She hates my tendency to spends tons of time learning about lots of different topics that im likely not going to get a job in, and i hate how she can't just appreciate the fact that i like to learn, even if my knowledge cant be applied immediately. I could go on all day, but the thing i hate most about sj's in general(speaking in terms to the ones i know, so please dont be offended sj members of perc) is how they all in their own way like to imply that im not normal, and if i were only "normal" like they are then i would have a much happier life obviously rolleyes. 

My bad experiences however dont lead me to believe all sj's are this way, and the members of this forum have proven to me that you all are actually nice intelligent people. if only the members here were my family :laughing:


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## Retsu

peyandkeele said:


> istj's i get along with, our te speaks to each other. My uncle is an istj and our relationship is great
> 
> isfj's on the other hand i have no good experiences with. my mom and couple of aunts and cousins are isfj's. To say the least we dont see eye to eye. they think im some arrogant know it all heartless douche bag who will grow to be old and lonely( a couple of them basically said this to me). I think they are unintelligent overly sensitive narrow minded nags, whos lack of ability to think ahead will keep them underachieving in life tbh. I think of my mom in this way to a much much lesser extent than my other isfj family members(mainly because she raised me and does understand me to a small degree).
> 
> But i find with sj's we have the common s vs n hurdles. for example my mom hates how i constantly day dream, i hate how she allows no room for me to be in my head to draw ideas. I also hate how she will have me do tasks her way, even tho her way isn't efficient and can be arcane, she wants me to do it her way because thats simply how she did it growing up, so it must be right, in which case i face palm and proceed to do things my way when she leaves. She hates my tendency to spends tons of time learning about lots of different topics that im likely not going to get a job in, and i hate how she can't just appreciate the fact that i like to learn, even if my knowledge cant be applied immediately. I could go on all day, but the thing i hate most about sj's in general(speaking in terms to the ones i know, so please dont be offended sj members of perc) is how they all in their own way like to imply that im not normal, and if i were only "normal" like they are then i would have a much happier life obviously rolleyes.
> 
> My bad experiences however dont lead me to believe all sj's are this way, and the members of this forum have proven to me that you all are actually nice intelligent people. if only the members here were my family :laughing:


One important thing to remember is that because there are more SJs, there are also more less intelligent people of those types. So you see our types being idiots more simply because there are more in the day to day world. For the record, that kind of thing irritates me, too.


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## Handsome Jack

I'm an ENTJ with an ISTJ brother and ISFJ mother who I both adore and get along with famously. They're incredibly dependable, productive, and competent. Ironically, my father is the other NT in the family (ENTP) and we clash on a nuclear level because the P is so problematic. He's flaky, irresponsible, bad with money, and only does what he wants rather than what he needs to do.

From my experience, the SJs share a lot of values with the ENTJs by having some combination of dependability, productivity, competence, and duty fulfillment as priorities. I can get past the S and F easily as long as we meet on the TJ side. There are clear differences in functions and communication styles but I haven't found that to be a barrier because I grew up with SJs and adapted accordingly.

My manager is also an ESTJ and we're killer on projects. The key is to get over the ENTJ 'do it my way' thing. I no longer care how it's done as long as it's done and done *well*. We all benefit from a great end result. This really helped overcome the SJ/NT way of thinking clashes.


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