# ENTPs, I Challenge You



## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Well, hopefully I at least got you here. lol

I challenge you to help me understand.

I'm an INFJ married to an ENTP Enneagram 7 (probably wing 8).

We dated long distance for two years before getting married 8 years ago. During our courtship, my husband was impressed and entertained by my intelligence. Since we got married, not so much. Or, at least, that's what he'd have me believe. He is skilled at saying EXACTLY the WORST possibly thing that can be said in any given situation. I recognize it as a skill and have come to accept it. 

My question is this:

Are you, as ENTPs, more likely to heckle people you feel are worth your effort? Or are you likely to just pride yourself with destroying someone whom you find boring?

My reason for asking is a need for validation. I feel tentatively confident that my husband respects my opinion. However, as a needy, sniveling Idealist, I am looking for direct acknowledgement. 

Or you can just pick apart my grammar and logic. Whatever suits you best. Have at it. I'm tougher than I used to be. 

Thanks!


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## Ngg (Jul 22, 2010)

Woah woah woah. Maybe I sense a LOT of passive aggressiveness here. I'm trying to understand your situation, but some things are not quite clear:
By saying the worst possible things, do you mean the most critical/offensive things? And are these directed towards you? I find it hard to believe that being very incisively mean is something you come to accept as a skill... It seems you are referring to his behavior and your needs ("needy, sniveling") in a very sarcastic manner to hide how deeply upset it makes you.

Anyways, I'll tell you this, something that not just an ENTP but everyone else here will tell you over and over again. If his behavior is inconsiderate, it probably more has to do with him being immature than being an ENTP. If he's an asshole, it doesn't matter what type he is, he's probably not a healthy person to be in a relationship with. Being an ENTP, even at my WORST I would never take pleasure in hurting my SO or torturing them verbally (even though I probably could). That's just fucked up, and again, more of a personality flaw than a type correlation.
ENTPs DO have a tendency to get bored in relationships and sometimes be oblivious to others feelings, so building trust and affection on his part is critical for the success of your marriage. If he's bored, perhaps suggests ideas to spice up your relationship. Nothing makes an ENTP happier than starting intellectual projects with your SO. I'm in a relationship with an ENFJ, and we always come up with new stimulating activities like a stand up comedy workshop, watching movies that really speak to us, talking about books we read, or even just having a discussion about anything...
But again, if he's just venting off all his frustration on you and not making an effort to improve the relationship whatsoever, you should really not be with this person. I'm sorry you've had to undergo such an emotionally straining experience. Most of us ENTPs (at least the mature ones) are fun and loving partners!


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Oh no! Don't do that! Don't be nice. I wasn't prepared for nice. I don't know what to do with it. It completely broke me down. I should probably wait til tomorrow to reply when my introverted brain has had time to process this unexpected information. But I want to express my gratitude for your response. I was trying to be playful the way my husband is playful hoping not to bog down what I had to say with too much emotion. But I guess it's not possible to hide it. Your words made me realize how much of my feelings I'm trying to ignore. I haven't acknowledged them in a while. My husband is mentally and emotionally unhealthy. It became frightening when I was pregnant both times. I finally got to a place when I realized my life would actually be better if we were apart, even if it meant living on social assistance for a while. But it wasn't my desire to leave, so I told him I'd come to the conclusion I was willing to leave a year ago and that I would if he didn't change his treatment of us. He's made incremental changes since then for the better. And, recently, he's even been kind a few times. He's been incredible with the kids and patient. Things are getting better. I'm dying to have activities to do together. I've even tried to develop interest in his gun club. All the things you mention enjoying with your SO are things I'd love to do with him. But the thought of doing anything with me seems to disgust or annoy him. Sorry I've gone on so long. What I will take from your words for now is that it is possible for my husband, if healthy, to enjoy talking to me. It isn't just 'who he is' tempermentally. It's a huge thing to have hope.


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Yeah I so should have waited til I could respond more objectively. Sorry for dumping! The funny thing is that the emotions are coming out now when things are better. Maybe I just finally feel safe enough to explore them. Thanks again.


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## NeedMoreKnowledge (Nov 2, 2010)

Challenge them in their own forum!!!!


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## Paradox of Vigor (Jul 7, 2010)

Yea mature ENTPs have boundaries that they know when mentally and purposely toying with people. ENTPs that I've known can, at times, destroy me verbally, but I am still not convinced with their arguments most of the time. It's funny because I pick the argument, which I am knowledgeable on, and they usually lose. Even so, they can hold their own in unknown territory far better than I can. So witty and ingenius they are, it's understandable that they might verbally nitpick you out of their own humor, but I doubt it would go so far as to be annoying.

Well, that's unless there's two of them. In that case, you may just want to back away slowly...

I'm lucky because all INTJs have force fields that act as barriers against all external stimuli!


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

NeedMoreKnowledge said:


> Challenge them in their own forum!!!!


Ha ha ha! Yes that would have been better. Is there anyway to transplant a post without resubmitting it altogether? Sorry, it was my first time and I didn't know what I was doing.


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Paradox of Vigor said:


> Yea mature ENTPs have boundaries that they know when mentally and purposely toying with people. ENTPs that I've known can, at times, destroy me verbally, but I am still not convinced with their arguments most of the time. It's funny because I pick the argument, which I am knowledgeable on, and they usually lose. Even so, they can hold their own in unknown territory far better than I can. So witty and ingenius they are, it's understandable that they might verbally nitpick you out of their own humor, but I doubt it would go so far as to be annoying.
> 
> Well, that's unless there's two of them. In that case, you may just want to back away slowly...
> 
> I'm lucky because all INTJs have force fields that act as barriers against all external stimuli!


This is so fun! I agree with much of the way you describe your interaction with ENTPs and envy you your forcefield. Ha ha.


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## Dizzle (Sep 4, 2010)

Berdudget said:


> Oh no! Don't do that! Don't be nice. I wasn't prepared for nice. I don't know what to do with it. It completely broke me down. I should probably wait til tomorrow to reply when my introverted brain has had time to process this unexpected information. But I want to express my gratitude for your response. I was trying to be playful the way my husband is playful hoping not to bog down what I had to say with too much emotion. But I guess it's not possible to hide it. Your words made me realize how much of my feelings I'm trying to ignore. I haven't acknowledged them in a while. My husband is mentally and emotionally unhealthy. It became frightening when I was pregnant both times. I finally got to a place when I realized my life would actually be better if we were apart, even if it meant living on social assistance for a while. But it wasn't my desire to leave, so I told him I'd come to the conclusion I was willing to leave a year ago and that I would if he didn't change his treatment of us. He's made incremental changes since then for the better. And, recently, he's even been kind a few times. He's been incredible with the kids and patient. Things are getting better. I'm dying to have activities to do together. I've even tried to develop interest in his gun club. All the things you mention enjoying with your SO are things I'd love to do with him. But the thought of doing anything with me seems to disgust or annoy him. Sorry I've gone on so long. What I will take from your words for now is that it is possible for my husband, if healthy, to enjoy talking to me. It isn't just 'who he is' tempermentally. It's a huge thing to have hope.


This is an interesting reaction. Have you had a conversation with him about his being disgusted or annoyed with you? I recently have had a falling out with an INFJ that I thought was my friend. However, it turned out that she was holding alot of resentment towards me inside for almost a year. I forced her to really show me her true face, because I would have never known that she was angry with me if wasn't for another mutual friend of ours. The INFJ is also a Type 9 and I am an ENTP Type 8, which means that any face to face conversation would be dominated by me and my anger, so I asked her if she wanted to discuss things with me to do so by e-mail and writing things out. That way we could really get to the heart of any issues and take the time to word things correctly or react to things in an honest manner. Maybe you could use this technique to understand what his issues are and get your own recognized and understood. Having an INFJ suddenly throw out exact quotes that she had been holding onto as reasons that I was not someone that could be trusted is unacceptable to me as an individual. Because in my mind if you question my integrity you should have done so in the moment you thought that I was not being honest. Or shortly after thinking it. Otherwise the context of the situation is lost. I'm writing this here because if you are anything like the INFJ that I dealt with, then you have probably been holding onto things that he has said or done and assuming something that may not be the case. And if what you are assuming is the case (such as he doesn't respect you anymore) then don't you think you would be better off knowing for you own benefit and your children?


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

To Dizzle: Thank you very much. The reaction was based on my belief that I was unlikable to ENTPs/7s in general. I expected the ENTPs to be annoyed that an emotional introvert was trying to be depressing and serious. I was caught up in my own relationship and couldn't see the forest for the trees. Without the emotional baggage, I'm sure I could have - and have had - enjoyable banter with other ENTPs. 

I have used that very technique - putting things in writing because it's very difficult to get any footing verbally. During the worst of it, a little over a year ago, the only way to get him to listen to a word I spoke was if I emailed him. I finally found the strength to tell him without crying (cause that's the kicker) that it appeared to me that he hated me and was disgusted with me. In that moment, he said he did and was. I didn't cry. I just accepted. I feel for him and want him to be happier. Most of the time, I can simply support him through his foul moods. But after a while, since he is my husband and I need support from somewhere, it overtaxes me and I break down from the sheer weight of his contempt. I tried to keep the hurt out of the conversation. I quite enjoy unemotional analyses of things, even if said things are my inadequacies or things I've done wrong. All I want is to identify them, come to a compromise and agreement for change in the future and to move forward.

When I told him I was willing to leave and would if he didn't change, I was sure he'd be happy to be rid of us. I didn't frame the information as a threat at all. It was simply a statement of fact. I was shocked when he seemed very sad to get the news. The next morning, he came into the bath with me and just held me and said sorry sorry sorry for a solid half an hour. It completely confused me. And, after all that had happened, it didn't even move me. The once a year display of love and appreciation was no longer enough.

Since then, as our lives have become more stable (we moved twice in the last year), he has become happier and I've watched him go from forced "patience" and "tolerance" to seeming sincere joy in the presence of his children. Our relationship has taken a little more effort on his part. 

It is amazing that, just after I post this, we have the best weekend together as a family that I can even remember.

In response to your INFJ 9 friend's holding back information when they're not happy, I definitely have the same weakness. I have been aware for several years that this is a point of contention between our two types. Now that he is in a better frame of mind, it is easier to force myself to put information out there, but it is still very difficult. As an "I" and, I'm sure also as an "F" I have a strong desire - I want to say need - to be drawn out. There were several years where my husband refused to communicate with me at all. I don't mean he refused to talk to me. He talks...a lot. LOL. But it's not communication.

He took my phone from me the other day when I was trying to type up a post referring to a time in our relationship when all his family was telling me they thought I should leave him. His own mother had saved up $3000 to give me in case I ended up having to go. He deleted the message and I was upset, but I understood why that information being typed up in a public forum would upset him, even if he's just a random nobody to everyone on here. That happened just before he was the best fun and friend and patient person I've ever seen him be (this past weekend). So, I believe perhaps I should take that as evidence that I need to speak up and accept whatever eruption it elicits immediately for the sake of the good in our relationship overall. 

Thank you for responding. I really, really appreciate it.


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## clawsthatcatch (Feb 1, 2011)

Berdudget said:


> To Dizzle: Thank you very much. The reaction was based on my belief that I was unlikable to ENTPs/7s in general. I expected the ENTPs to be annoyed that an emotional introvert was trying to be depressing and serious. I was caught up in my own relationship and couldn't see the forest for the trees. Without the emotional baggage, I'm sure I could have - and have had - enjoyable banter with other ENTPs.
> 
> I have used that very technique - putting things in writing because it's very difficult to get any footing verbally. During the worst of it, a little over a year ago, the only way to get him to listen to a word I spoke was if I emailed him. I finally found the strength to tell him without crying (cause that's the kicker) that it appeared to me that he hated me and was disgusted with me. In that moment, he said he did and was. I didn't cry. I just accepted. I feel for him and want him to be happier. Most of the time, I can simply support him through his foul moods. But after a while, since he is my husband and I need support from somewhere, it overtaxes me and I break down from the sheer weight of his contempt. I tried to keep the hurt out of the conversation. I quite enjoy unemotional analyses of things, even if said things are my inadequacies or things I've done wrong. All I want is to identify them, come to a compromise and agreement for change in the future and to move forward.
> 
> ...


You are so sweet, I'm worried you're too sweet and this guy is taking advantage of your kindness. 

I know what jerks ENTPs can be. I'm not even kidding. Some of us are complete assholes. The thing I've noticed is that arrogance is really the determining factor. The more arrogant an ENTP is, the more of a jerk he/she is. We sometimes become enthralled with our own overblown egos.

I'm trying to think of what I would advise my own INFJ friends to do in a situation like this. I'm thinking that I'd advise them to be firmer, even if it's not in their nature to do so. We like to be liked as much as anything else, and it can come as a shock to us that other people are not completely amazed by our genius. We kind of need someone to remind us that there are other people who matter.

I totally know what you're talking about when you say "talking with no communication." Totally an ENTP trait. 

It's hard to give specific advice when I don't really know anyone involved. But don't let him boss you around, husband or not.


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Wow! Thanks for reading the whole thing!


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## Tony Stark (Mar 4, 2010)

This is a relationship of Supervision in Socionics:

Relations of Supervision between psychological ("personality") types
Supervision - Wikisocion
Supervision relations! - the16types.info Socionics Forums
supervisor/supervisee - the16types.info Socionics Forums

You're the supervisor. The supervisee (him) becomes more childish in response to the supervision, as I understand it. It's not the worst matchup of the types, but it's pretty close. The good thing is that at least one of you is self-aware.


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Tony Stark said:


> This is a relationship of Supervision in Socionics:
> 
> Relations of Supervision between psychological ("personality") types
> Supervision - Wikisocion
> ...


This is very interesting. Though you might be right, I won't be convinced until I research the overall topic for myself and see examples of the other dynamics. Thank you for pointing me in this direction. I'm excited by the prospect of delving into it!


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

I've never been in a relationships for longer than two years... and judging from most peoples' complaints about having an ENTP husband, we make terrible partners in the long run.

Guess I'll just have to stick to trollin' for bar trash my whole life and when I'm too old for that hopefully I'll have enough in my Roth IRA to buy all sorts of expensive hookers.


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## Dizzle (Sep 4, 2010)

Trainwreck said:


> I've never been in a relationships for longer than two years... and judging from most peoples' complaints about having an ENTP husband, we make terrible partners in the long run.
> 
> Guess I'll just have to stick to trollin' for bar trash my whole life and when I'm too old for that hopefully I'll have enough in my Roth IRA to buy all sorts of expensive hookers.


Well at least you'll be content.


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## Berdudget (Mar 24, 2011)

Trainwreck said:


> I've never been in a relationships for longer than two years... and judging from most peoples' complaints about having an ENTP husband, we make terrible partners in the long run.
> 
> Guess I'll just have to stick to trollin' for bar trash my whole life and when I'm too old for that hopefully I'll have enough in my Roth IRA to buy all sorts of expensive hookers.


Yeah, hopefully! Ha ha! No, just kidding. I know I'm complaining about him and we have definitely had some rough times and you're probably just joking. But the jokes remind me so much of my husband's own insecurities that I'm moved to tell you that I chose chaos over boredom consciously and I'd do it again. I really LIKE my bastard husband. LOL. I do need more validation than I get and I need to know whether he likes me too. As a woman that fits the stereotype, I tend to need to work things out outloud with others to bounce things off of. Whereas the stereotypical male way of working through problems for solutions is to think on it silently until the solution presents itself. I hope my reasons for saying all this are clear enough. I think I need to go to bed.


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## deSouza (Dec 26, 2011)

Tony Stark said:


> This is a relationship of Supervision in Socionics:
> 
> Relations of Supervision between psychological ("personality") types
> Supervision - Wikisocion
> ...



Have you ever met a dual couple in socionics terms?


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

Step one when dealing with an entp who can out verbalize you: Don't play the game. Adopt what I call "The Commodore Perry Approach". When he says something, be quiet, look him in the eye, and give an expression that simultaneously says "I'm listening, I'm disappointed, and I love you" in equal measure. Don't show anger, that's blood in the water. Continue the look until he breaks down and says something along the lines of "why are you looking at me that way?" Shrug your shoulders, purse you lips, and raise an eyebrow. Go on to whatever you were doing talking about before.

He'll be so curious that he'll be eating of your hand trying to figure out what's going on. INFJs are supposed to be mysterious and hard to figure out. He thinks he's figured you out and is starting to play with you. Prove him wrong.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Berdudget said:


> My question is this:
> 
> Are you, as ENTPs, more likely to heckle people you feel are worth your effort? Or are you likely to just pride yourself with destroying someone whom you find boring?


There is no pride in dealing with boring people. If I were to destroy someone, they'd have to be interesting enough to capture my interest in the first place.


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