# Why do people hate Fi?



## lue

[No message]


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

I don't know if they hate it, or don't understand it. Fi seems to be the most difficult for those who use Fe, regardless of where the other functions stack. Because Fe is an external function, there is no mystery. For me all introverted functions are interesting. I sense the hate comes from the chilly effect it can leave with some people. Fi wants to be left alone, no poking, digging, probing, fixing, hence having to be constantly sharing it. For me Fi is private, if it wants to reveal itself it has to come from the self, not from pressure, or conforming. Fi is authentic and wants to be true to the self first ( How does it make me feel )... If and when Fi becomes irritated ( usually from one of the examples I left...poking, digging...etc....it runs deep to the core because Fi doesn't consider out side stimuli, it feels like interference to the soul. This may or may not make sense, ha :mellow:......people are mystified by Fi, likely because it is emotionally driven, yet the outside world can't see what drives our feelings, what we're feeling, unless we choose to reveal ourselves and show our core feelings....some people hate that, ha :ninja::blushed: :laughing:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

as an ENFP with strong Fi, it makes perfect sense to me why people would dislike Fi
*1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


----------



## lue

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as an ENFP with strong Fi, it makes perfect sense to me why people would dislike Fi
> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)


Couldn't these go for both Fi and Fe? Just different motivations and methods? 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel


I'm not sure this is true. But I only have a little baby Fi, so I could be wrong. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes


I've been guilty of this. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


:laughing:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

lue said:


> Couldn't these go for both Fi and Fe? Just different motivations and methods?


moreso of Fi. Fe is more morally adaptable and sensitive to changes in societal values




> I'm not sure this is true. But I only have a little baby Fi, so I could be wrong.


it's true of virtually every INTJ I've met who was not a 9 or phobic 6


----------



## BakerStreet

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Fi seems to be the most difficult for those who use Fe, regardless of where the other functions stack.


I like Fi. I can't imagine prioritizing the use of it over Fe, but it's a function that makes sense to me. I respect the idea of following one's own moral code, not necessarily conforming to societal norms, and looking inwards to make a decision.
Perhaps people are annoyed by Fi because Fi-users aren't as likely to elucidate why they made a decision as Fe-users? I have no idea. 



MuChApArAdOx said:


> Because Fe is an external function, there is no mystery.


I actually think that Fe can be a very ambiguous function. Because Fe-users often make decisions in light of an external moral code or how people will be impacted, it might be difficult to determine how the Fe-user actually feels about the decision.


----------



## Quernus

bakerstreet said:


> i actually think that fe can be a very ambiguous function. Because fe-users often make decisions in light of an external moral code or how people will be impacted, it might be difficult to determine how the fe-user actually feels about the decision.


yes! Although I think there is often a misconception that Fe-users don't have their own feelings, I have had experiences with certain Fe-users (especially dom and aux) where I'm just like... wait, are you just saying that? And WHY are you saying that? Why does it seem like you're just reacting to what *I* said, without missing a beat? Did you even reflect at all? Hmm...

I think it's interesting because I'm a Fi-user but I'm very perceptive about how other people feel, and I can kind of "sense" when there is a disconnect of sorts (like when the other person, especially a Fe-user, just reacts or makes a choice that is not necessarily congruent with everything about how they might feel about upon reflection). Then I get confused.


----------



## lue

Swordsman of Mana said:


> it's true of virtually every INTJ I've met who was not a 9 or phobic 6


Ah. Makes sense (I'm a 9).


----------



## Sixty Nein

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


Overall I agree with most of this, however I do not think that Fe is necessarily gentle. Even if it is paired up Si-Ne. The thing here is that because the Introverted Feeling type does not take the ethical/cultural idioms at face value, it would mean that it just compatibly comes off as somewhat strange, and discharged from the over all content. A Fi-type might say something that is vaguely insulting but they meant it as a sort of compliment. To the Fe types, this will just be seen as a disparaging insult, but to those who know the person, it might very well be a compliment. Calling someone a bitch, might mean that they are tough or that they are willing to bark at issues whenever someone might pussy foot around it. Maybe it means that they are generally authentic on some level. The Fe-type who takes most most of it at face value, would more than likely just see it as a insult and will likely desire to readjust the Fi type in this manner. So if a Fe type calls you an bitch, you will probably know that they really meant to insult you. With a Fi type, it would be more ambiguous.

A lot of this sounds like this would be something that someone who isn't very well adjusted to Fi or just feeling would act like. It'd most likely have a more sophisticated/well-controlled on some level. Also I think judgement types in general can be more close minded, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Quernus

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel


Hmmm. When it comes to expressing my belief on something that matters to me, that's true. Sort of. I generally do worry about how I make people feel, and unless I think you're being am ignorant d*ck, I'll try to stay at least neutral -- if not even kind and understanding-- when expressing my view. However, I don't feel *responsible* for how the other person feels, like if they take offense... well... that's not what I want to happen, but priority still goes to blabbing on about what I think is right. Haha.



> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


Hah. Yeah.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as an ENFP with strong Fi, it makes perfect sense to me why people would dislike Fi
> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


1. Exactly what I meant when I said we don`t consider outside stimuli. We don`t give a fuck because it is of no value to our inner world.

2. Yes, it is judgmental, it is a judging function after all like all other judging functions. EX..Ti

3. Last time I checked we are not responsible for how others feel. We have no control , we feel what we tell ourselves, we can`t make people feel anything without their consent. 

4. Agreed, Fi is a bullshit detector, it can smell fake, insincerity, manipulation ++ from a mile. It does have a snotty flavor to it, mostly because the wheels are constantly turning, yet we are not saying anything. We are usually making silent judgements, then weighting them against our own personal morals/values. If they don't connect, Fi becomes very dismissive.....but...if we do connect, wooha, fireworks :wink:

5. Lol, this one gave me a laugh, ha, Jedi..:ninja:.....this all goes back to conforming, or feeling controlled. Fi will dis you without batting an eyelash if we observe any kind of control. ( fuck you, I don't take orders from you kind of speak. And if we feel pressured, or manipulated, we will react the same way. We hate it with a passion, It insults us internally, bc we don't look for validation with matters of the heart, we know how we feel, and bc we don't place much or any value on external stimuli emotionally, our core is at its truest form bc we alone decided how we feel about our surroundings, relationships etc. we don't appreciate people who think they know how we feel, they don't- unless we say it directly never assume what is going on with our Fi. Fi will open up from the core with the right connection, not harsh, not unkind, not cold, very loving warm and gentle. We're very picky and choosy with whom.

Oh, and I totally disagree with Fe being a gentle function. Fe can be quite harsh and ugly, and bc they spill their emotions all over the place, that ugly is quite visible when its happening. :tongue:


----------



## Abraxas

I literally just got out of a heated debate with an ENFJ about Fe versus my (tertiary) Fi, and the difference between Fe and Fi is striking to me, almost horrifying actually.


Fe users _are totally incapable_ of picking up on how someone else around them feels without relying on cues and signals that they've _learned_ to look for.

You follow?

Fi users _don't have a set of rules that tell them how to identify feelings._

We "tune in" to what the other person is feeling _instinctively._

It feels to a Fi user like "instinct." We "just know." We don't look for cues or signals. We _know_ what you are feeling because just being around you when you're in a bad mood influences us directly. We "feel" the "negative energy" coming from the person _inside of us_ and it sets us on edge, so we react to it.

But a Fe user _learns_ what to look for to identify as "negative energy." Almost like the way a Te user "learns" how a system works in order to work with it. Fe users "learn" how feelings work by identifying "external" cues - facial features, gestures, body language, tone of voice. They need all of that to tell them how someone is feeling.

Fi users don't need any of that. It's practically a form of telepathy. We can be sitting next to someone totally dead silent and get a sense of what that person is feeling. We're actually _unconscious_ of their external cues.

The fact is, we actually _are_ using external cues to tell us what the other person is feeling, but the trick is we're _unconscious_ of it.


----------



## Kingdom Crusader

Fi is the function I least understand out of the bunch. It just so happens to come dead last among my shadow functions.

An ENTJ kind of shocked me by letting me know he was a romantic, as well as sentimental, for example. Just goes to show I really didn't know this function at all.

Also, it seems to me that Fi users are more prone to jealousy than Fe users.


----------



## LostFavor

Abraxas said:


> I literally just got out of a heated debate with an ENFJ about Fe versus my (tertiary) Fi, and the difference between Fe and Fi is striking to me, almost horrifying actually.
> 
> 
> Fe users _are totally incapable_ of picking up on how someone else around them feels without relying on cues and signals that they've _learned_ to look for.
> 
> You follow?
> 
> Fi users _don't have a set of rules that tell them how to identify feelings._
> 
> We "tune in" to what the other person is feeling _instinctively._
> 
> It feels to a Fi user like "instinct." We "just know." We don't look for cues or signals. We _know_ what you are feeling because just being around you when you're in a bad mood influences us directly. We "feel" the "negative energy" coming from the person _inside of us_ and it sets us on edge, so we react to it.
> 
> But a Fe user _learns_ what to look for to identify as "negative energy." Almost like the way a Te user "learns" how a system works in order to work with it. Fe users "learn" how feelings work by identifying "external" cues - facial features, gestures, body language, tone of voice. They need all of that to tell them how someone is feeling.
> 
> Fi users don't need any of that. It's practically a form of telepathy. We can be sitting next to someone totally dead silent and get a sense of what that person is feeling. We're actually _unconscious_ of their external cues.
> 
> The fact is, we actually _are_ using external cues to tell us what the other person is feeling, but the trick is we're _unconscious_ of it.


That actually makes a lot of sense.

And when did you change to an INTJ? :tongue:


----------



## Abraxas

LostFavor said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense.
> 
> And when did you change to an INTJ? :tongue:



When I figured out Enneagram type 9w1. Lol.


----------



## LostFavor

Abraxas said:


> When I figured out Enneagram type 9w1.


Ohh, ok. Yeah, Enneagram can certainly add another dimension to the puzzle.


----------



## Octavian

Fi is effectively the "because fuck you that's why" function.


----------



## Ekstasis

I don't know why people would hate Fi, but I personally favor Fi...more so than Fe.


----------



## Bricolage

Whenever I watch zombie shows like Walking Dead with Fi lead or aux characters (Andrea I'm looking at you) I usually think "you idiot! no!" when that character does something stupid for a principles Fi reason (e.g., Andrea not killing the governor out of selfish self-interest or the delusional hope that the governor could become more compassionate). That said I sometimes agree with their decisions if Fi happens to increase the group's survival - like when Carol (ESFP?) on the show burns those two infected bodies. I guess my pragmatism fights with Fi's starry-eyed idealism sometimes. I recently was at loggerheads with a girl over this - her Fi idealism kept her searching for the best romantic options and I'm like time's ticking.


----------



## Aleysia

Abraxas said:


> Fe users _are totally incapable_ of picking up on how someone else around them feels without relying on cues and signals that they've _learned_ to look for.


Yes! And this completely confuses me. I don't think I would call Fi instinctive, but it feels instinctive because we project our understanding of the *universal human experience* on to others, and base our understanding of people's feelings on that.

No need to actually see the person's face/body/etc., just think about the essence of the interaction.

Overall, it seems to work splendidly... at least, in the 50% of the population with Fi in their stack, I think. Not going to comment on how Fe-users experience it, since I'm learning that Fe/Ti<->Fi/Te is like alien species trying to communicate. -_-


----------



## LostFavor

Haydn said:


> Do not be so sure some of them are not judging you but keeping their feelings and judgement to themselves. Many Fi users just seem so confident of the feelings and realness of others who they often just do not get at any real level and in this way they can be very incorrect and highly offensive...maybe they should just stick to evaluating the feelings and authenticity of other Fi people.
> 
> In real life and even here, I find Fi users almost obsessed with this idea of realness and fakeness. I instantly get irritated when I hear it because I do not feel that Fi users are in any way more real than Fe users, just different in values. I know fake as hell ESFPs who would say anything to get what they want and fake as hell people from just about every other type.


Sounds like you've got a bit of an axe to grind. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since this thread is pretty much an axe grinding session. :tongue:

Keep in mind that "silently judging" isn't necessarily the same as "acting on judgments" though. I could silently judge someone all day and still outwardly treat him/her exactly the same as I did before the judgments. But I would imagine that if an unhealthy dom/aux Fi is doing a lot of silent judging, it's not going to remain silent for long.

In that sense, part of "healthiness" is being able to mostly recognize your own biases at work and not let them rule you all the time. At least, that's how I'm seeing it at the moment.


----------



## Bahburah

Bricolage said:


> E.g., Nietzsche (INTJ) emphasizes self-actualization whereas Bertrand Russell (ENTP) is more about structuring society to engender happiness for the most people.


This just seems more like a general E to I thing. As in I don't think theres anything more important to INTP's than self-actualization.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda

Bahburah said:


> This just seems more like a general E to I thing. As in I don't think theres anything more important to INTP's than self-actualization.


I agree with this. INTP's purpose is not to gain knowledge for the purpose of gaining knowledge. It's ultimately used to understand themselves and how they fit into things. Fe is also there, INTPs may desire to teach others their path toward enlightenment. I think this would come after much development though because Fe is the last function.
Here's a quote from personality junkie's perspective.


> INTJs focus in a more direct way on ways the world can be improved and, in the process, come to better understand themselves (Fi). INTPs, by contrast, focus first on understanding and improving themselves (Ti) and, in the process, hope to provide a roadmap for others to do the same (Fe). The way of the Buddha is in many ways characteristic of the INTP approach—figure out how to save yourself first, then help others do the same. In this light, the idea of grassroots or “bottom-up” change holds particular appeal for INTPs.


----------



## Bricolage

Bahburah said:


> This just seems more like a general E to I thing. As in I don't think theres anything more important to INTP's than self-actualization.


So, this maxim applies to ISFJs and ENTJs and ISTPs? Interesting. I wasn't aware that ISFJs were so captivated by self-actualization compared to ENTJs.

I'm still pretty sure Fi is more about self-actualization and Fe is more about group harmony, in the extreme conditions. INTPs are more guided by Fe than they may like to concede.

INTPs are usually after perfection of their understanding of the world (Ti) and not quite self-actualization a la an INFP. You're thinking of Fi, or maybe you're taking a narrow definitely of self-actualiization lol.


----------



## Bricolage

Bahburah said:


> This just seems more like a general E to I thing. As in I don't think theres anything more important to INTP's than self-actualization.


I don't mean to be so snarky but using just one type, and a type with inferior Fe no less, to make a general point about all the types is retarded. And you're also kinda saying EXFPs (being extraverts) care about bon homie and harmony, which isn't really the case.


----------



## HBIC

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as an ENFP with strong Fi, it makes perfect sense to me why people would dislike Fi
> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other[/B]
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


With the exception of #1, yes to all of it. 



MuChApArAdOx said:


> 4. Agreed, Fi is a bullshit detector, it can smell fake, insincerity, manipulation ++ from a mile. It does have a snotty flavor to it, mostly because the wheels are constantly turning, yet we are not saying anything. We are usually making silent judgements, then weighting them against our own personal morals/values. If they don't connect, Fi becomes very dismissive.....but...if we do connect, wooha, fireworks :wink:
> 
> 5. Lol, this one gave me a laugh, ha, Jedi..:ninja:.....this all goes back to conforming, or feeling controlled. Fi will dis you without batting an eyelash if we observe any kind of control. ( fuck you, I don't take orders from you kind of speak. And if we feel pressured, or manipulated, we will react the same way. We hate it with a passion, It insults us internally, bc we don't look for validation with matters of the heart, we know how we feel, and bc we don't place much or any value on external stimuli emotionally, our core is at its truest form bc we alone decided how we feel about our surroundings, relationships etc. we don't appreciate people who think they know how we feel, they don't- unless we say it directly never assume what is going on with our Fi. Fi will open up from the core with the right connection, not harsh, not unkind, not cold, very loving warm and gentle. We're very picky and choosy with whom.
> 
> Oh, and I totally disagree with Fe being a gentle function. Fe can be quite harsh and ugly, and bc they spill their emotions all over the place, that ugly is quite visible when its happening. :tongue:


Amen.



Abraxas said:


> I literally just got out of a heated debate with an ENFJ about Fe versus my (tertiary) Fi, and the difference between Fe and Fi is striking to me, almost horrifying actually.
> 
> 
> Fe users _are totally incapable_ of picking up on how someone else around them feels without relying on cues and signals that they've _learned_ to look for.
> 
> You follow?
> 
> Fi users _don't have a set of rules that tell them how to identify feelings._
> 
> We "tune in" to what the other person is feeling _instinctively._
> 
> It feels to a Fi user like "instinct." We "just know." We don't look for cues or signals. We _know_ what you are feeling because just being around you when you're in a bad mood influences us directly. We "feel" the "negative energy" coming from the person _inside of us_ and it sets us on edge, so we react to it.
> 
> But a Fe user _learns_ what to look for to identify as "negative energy." Almost like the way a Te user "learns" how a system works in order to work with it. Fe users "learn" how feelings work by identifying "external" cues - facial features, gestures, body language, tone of voice. They need all of that to tell them how someone is feeling.
> 
> Fi users don't need any of that. It's practically a form of telepathy. We can be sitting next to someone totally dead silent and get a sense of what that person is feeling. We're actually _unconscious_ of their external cues.
> 
> The fact is, we actually _are_ using external cues to tell us what the other person is feeling, but the trick is we're _unconscious_ of it.


This processes is the key to the difference between Fe and Fi. I always point it out to people who are torn between ENFJ and ENFP, specially. We don't really "read" people, we "feel" them. 




dulcinea said:


> I love Fi. *Fi's are more authentic.* Not to say that when that authenticity clashes with my values, it doesn't get on my nerves, but, I find Fe's get on my nerves too when their values clash with mine. I've learned that clashes that I have with others have little to do with type, and has more to do with differences in opinions, values, etc. I find I clash w my mom more than anyone else, and, I'm pretty sure she's ESFJ.


No cognitive function is more authentic than the other. 



Haydn said:


> I also find Fi a dreadfully selfish, self centered function....it almost seems crude and childlike to me or almost like being stuck at the emotional level of a typical two year old. "I wanted this because I feel I want this and I do not care what anyone else wants" is how *the most 'unhealthy' Fi users come across to me.* It often seems that they cannot be persuaded by reason either, it is just all freaking unbridled feelings and they somehow think this is authentic and a good quality which I don't. It is like the laws of the external world means nothing to them only what they feel seem to matter.
> 
> There is the one rare flower in the park and miss Fi must have it, fuck the other people who might want to see it too. Yes, you are right that instinctively the Fe user might have liked to take it home too to show their friends and whatnot but we then think that a wider audience might like to see it too and leave it there.
> 
> 
> Yes, I have certain problems with unhealthy Fe as well and I think that a healthy balance between self sacrifice and self focus is probably the ideal state.


And you judge a function by its most unhealthy users? If I did the same I'd hate both Fe and Fi, since immature INFPs/INFJs/ESFJs are my personal hell.




Abraxas said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. In my experience with Fe it's been the opposite.
> 
> Fe types are the "motherly" types who want to baby-sit everyone's feelings and "white knight" all the time in order to "keep the peace" and maintain group harmony.
> 
> Fi types are usually the more "your feelings are not my responsibility" types who aren't going to offer you support if they don't personally relate to you or know you very well.


Generally, that's pretty much how it is.



Bricolage said:


> Fe can be catty and kinda condescending towards outsiders. Like if you don't fit in - well, the movie Mean Girls illustrates the point.


It's Fe's worst trait, worse than the so-call "fakeness" it brings.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> Fe can be harsh too, but it is a weak willed, easily broken harshness compared to the harshness of an Fi user, which has a great deal more backbone and conviction.
> *Fe harshness:* a clucking hen trying to peck at you until you get back in line with the other chicklets
> *Fi harshness:* a seething sword of vengeance which cuts relentlessly until you yield (or die lol)
> 
> in general, Fe judges your *behavior* while Fi judges you *at your core*


That's a perfect way to illustrate it. We Fi users don't judge what _you do_, we judge what _you are_.



Cotillion said:


> cuz they won't laugh at my jokes
> 
> so mean


Never heard an INFJ joke. What are they like?



tanstaafl28 said:


> Why would anyone even think this? How is it possible to "hate" a cognitive function? That seems silly to me.


It is rather infantile and irrational. Which is ironic since they accuse Fi of being "childlike".


----------



## lue

Look Alive_ Sunshine said:


> This processes is the key to the difference between Fe and Fi. I always point it out to people who are torn between ENFJ and ENFP, specially. We don't really "read" people, we "feel" them.


That was perfect.


----------



## Entropic

A function is only as good or useful as the person who manifests it is.


----------



## Cotillion

Look Alive_ Sunshine said:


> Never heard an INFJ joke. What are they like?


well, like the other day

this friend of mine had a disgusted look on her face and she said, "Did you know that 2 out of every 3 people live next to a pedophile?"

i said, "Not me, I live next to two smoking hot 10 year olds".










666 posts \-.-/


----------



## HBIC

Cotillion said:


> well, like the other day
> 
> this friend of mine had a disgusted look on her face and she said, "Did you know that 2 out of every 3 people live next to a pedophile?"
> 
> i said, "Not me, I live next to two smoking hot 10 year olds".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 666 posts \-.-/












You tried.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Bahburah said:


> This just seems more like a general E to I thing.


definitely not. I'm all about self actualization and I'm ENFP. most of the NTPs I know; however, are far more socially minded than me



> As in I don't think theres anything more important to INTP's than self-actualization.


I think that has more to do with you being 7w6 (more self-focused, less concern for society)


----------



## Haydn

LostFavor said:


> Sounds like you've got a bit of an axe to grind. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since this thread is pretty much an axe grinding session. :tongue:


Lol, true about the axe but it is only a small axe :wink:and I also have yet to see anyone here say they hate Fi even though I am personally not generally a fan of this function overall myself. I like Fe better.

I have never felt understood by an Fi user but they are supremely sure of their own understanding. I have been especially irritated by some Fi users (usually doms/auxs) I have been around thinking that they can feel my feelings when often I am feeling something completely different from what they feel like I am feeling but apparently they can feel my core feelings in their core or whatever even just by being next to me. 


This just ends up feeling to me like some kind of arrogant, horrible, invalidating projection of their own feelings or something else is being bestow upon me when this happens and worst, their judgments and actions springing from this can be rigid, enduring and even destructive depending on the situation.


----------



## metaphor

Haydn said:


> Lol, true about the axe but it is only a small axe :wink:and I also have yet to see anyone here say they hate Fi even though I am personally not generally a fan of this function overall myself. I like Fe better.
> 
> I have never felt understood by an Fi user but they are supremely sure of their own understanding. I have been especially irritated by some Fi users (usually doms/auxs) I have been around thinking that they can feel my feelings when often I am feeling something completely different from what they feel like I am feeling but apparently they can feel my core feelings in their core or whatever even just by being next to me.
> 
> 
> This just ends up feeling to me like some kind of arrogant, horrible, invalidating projection of their own feelings or something else is being bestow upon me when this happens and worst, their judgments and actions springing from this can be rigid, enduring and even destructive depending on the situation.


Hopefully you'll encounter *healthy* Fi doms/auxs one day.


----------



## Bahburah

Bricolage said:


> I don't mean to be so snarky but using just one type, and a type with inferior Fe no less, to make a general point about all the types is retarded. And you're also kinda saying EXFPs (being extraverts) care about bon homie and harmony, which isn't really the case.


Well your making some generalizations as well so...

I wouldn't say ENTJs are interested in self-actualization, and if anything they are the complete opposite.
They have a very obtainable view of the world on a large scale, so there more likely to do something in the world and if that be to help others it's for the worlds benefit. 

I know this well because I always get into arguments with my ENTJ friend about having a cause to help the world vs becoming the best person you can for the world.

It's really more to do with Si and Se than Fi and Fe.
Because Fi is just how you feel about something and Si is more about what your experiencing.

Even with the INTJ, there still much more about effecting the world around them to get what they want. (Se, Fi)


----------



## Bahburah

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I think that has more to do with you being 7w6 (more self-focused, less concern for society)


Very positive that this is an INTP thing. This is the reason I'm even into MBTI at all.

But I'm sure being type 7 adds to it more.


----------



## Potne Theron

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


True in varying degrees, from a Fi user to another, depending on the degree of differenciation and integration of Te, the other pole of the same dimension, which allows us to use objective facts to check and adjust our evaluations (in particular).


----------



## VoodooDolls

Cause Fi doesn't feed external egos, it flows inwardly so no one can pick it up and be possesive about it, at least without their consent thus it's less likely to be manipulated. 
#dunnowhati'msaying


----------



## Mutant Hive Queen

Cotillion said:


> well, like the other day
> 
> this friend of mine had a disgusted look on her face and she said, "Did you know that 2 out of every 3 people live next to a pedophile?"
> 
> i said, "Not me, I live next to two smoking hot 10 year olds".
> 
> 666 posts \-.-/


_My god that's hilarious_

I'm not kidding. It is. XD


----------



## Octavian

> I wouldn't say ENTJs are interested in self-actualization, and if anything they are the complete opposite.
> They have a very obtainable view of the world on a large scale, so there more likely to do something in the world and if that be to help others it's for the worlds benefit.
> 
> I know this well because I always get into arguments with my ENTJ friend
> 
> It's really more to do with Si and Se than Fi and Fe.
> Because Fi is just how you feel about something and Si is more about what your experiencing.
> 
> Even with the INTJ, there still much more about effecting the world around them to get what they want. (Se, Fi)


You literally have no idea what you're talking about and it is so amusing.


----------



## HBIC

Octavian said:


> You literally have no idea what you're talking about and it is so amusing.


Ain't it grand?


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Swordsman of Mana said:


> as an ENFP with strong Fi, it makes perfect sense to me why people would dislike Fi
> *1) it can be closed minded as fuck*. any information which presents a case contrary to the Fi user's values will go in one ear and out the other
> 2) it can be harshly judgmental (in contrast to the gentle social scolding of Fe)
> 3) we have a "love 'em or hate 'em: quality to us. Fi users will tell you what they believe and feel no responsibility for how this makes you feel
> 4) Fi users can be very stuck up about their tastes
> 5) if you are the type of person who is socially controlling and PC, don't expect to have much luck with an Fi user, because we will deflect your attempts at social control like a goddamn jedi


Number 4.  After having a conversation with an ENTJ today, we talked about a few of the stereotypes including Fi being stuck up about our taste. He pointed something out to me that made me smile, AND makes perfect sense :wink:..Fi has expensive taste with Love, we guard our heart, have high standards with whom we share our core/feelings. Ordinary love just won't do, Fi craves depth, passion, madness- shallow isn't an option. Personally I don't believe it's a want , not for me anyway, It is absolutely a need.:ninja::happy:.......Not everyone hates Fi, I have a few friends who can't get enough of it, they cracked the code, lol...anyone who figures out the secret password will check in, and never leave ....yes, it's that powerful :laughing::wink:


----------



## Octavian

Look Alive_ Sunshine said:


> Ain't it grand?


At least he has confidence in his bullshit. Maybe he should go into acting.


----------



## HBIC

Octavian said:


> At least he has confidence in his bullshit. Maybe he should go into acting.


With this much conviction, he could have an Oscar coming his way.


----------



## Alysaria

Fi is a big, stubborn jerk that digs its heels in as soon as the word "should" comes up. 

Me: I should do some cleaning
Fi: NO! I WANNA SLEEP! 

Me: I need to get this work done
Fi: NO! I WANNA PLAY FIVE HOURS OF FRUIT NINJA!

Me: I should try for the high score on Fruit Ninja...
Fi: NO! IT'S STUPID! I WANT TO READ!

I think it's because Fi is a perfectionist function, and as soon as something becomes necessary it becomes too important...and then I don't want to do it because I might not do it right. =.=


----------



## HBIC

Alysaria said:


> Fi is a big, stubborn jerk that digs its heels in as soon as the word "should" comes up.
> 
> Me: I should do some cleaning
> Fi: NO! I WANNA SLEEP!
> 
> Me: I need to get this work done
> Fi: NO! I WANNA PLAY FIVE HOURS OF FRUIT NINJA!
> 
> Me: I should try for the high score on Fruit Ninja...
> Fi: NO! IT'S STUPID! I WANT TO READ!
> 
> I think it's because Fi is a perfectionist function, and as soon as something becomes necessary it becomes too important...and then I don't want to do it because I might not do it right. =.=


_Bless this post_


----------



## Haydn

MuChApArAdOx said:


> .Fi has expensive taste with Love, we guard our heart, have high standards with whom we share our core/feelings. Ordinary love just won't do, Fi craves depth, passion, madness- shallow isn't an option. .


Fe craves the same and generally, I do not think most people want shallow.


----------



## ferroequinologist

lue said:


> There has to be a Fi one. Have at it.


I don't see why? For every function, there is an equal and opposite function, which means that everybody will hate some other function, and the only reason is because it's the opposite function, and they tend to repel each other... to ask for reasons is nothing more than seeking justification for something that doesn't need it, at best, and at worst, it promotes and propagates stereotypes and negative impressions/feelings...


----------



## ferroequinologist

ElliCat said:


> 2. Ever seen an unhealthy ESFJ? SO much harsh judgement. Usually against Fi users because they're "selfish" and "lack morals".
> 
> I get messy when I argue but the unhealthy ESFJ I have in mind it gets REALLY ugly, often without warning.


An unhealthy ESFJ? I love this term "unhealthy"... What really does it mean? An ESFJ, who is under great stress turns into an INTP. An INTP under stress looks like.... an unhealthy ESFJ... I wonder what this person really is?


----------



## ferroequinologist

Haydn said:


> I also find Fi a dreadfully selfish, self centered function....it almost seems crude and childlike to me or almost like being stuck at the emotional level of a typical two year old. "I wanted this because I feel I want this and I do not care what anyone else wants" is how the most 'unhealthy' Fi users come across to me. It often seems that they cannot be persuaded by reason either, it is just all freaking unbridled feelings and they somehow think this is authentic and a good quality which I don't. It is like the laws of the external world means nothing to them only what they feel seem to matter.


Fi doesn't push... Introverted functions, by definition are functions that separate from or draws away... If an Fi user is pushing, he's pushing back against someone else pushing him into a corner where the only recourse left is pushing back. Of course, if someone does this to him constantly over time, he may be conditioned to push back at the slightest provocation, but the original issue is the original pushing. And here is where Fe absolutely does not understand Fi. Fe is all about pushing others--to comment, to relate, to give feedback--always and constantly wanting and needing some sort of in-kind response. The problem is that if the Fi-user responds at all in kind, out of politeness and social awareness or propriety, then the Fe user takes that as a green light to just keep pushing, and over time, they eventually cross the line, because they cannot see that the Fi user is attempting to retreat, so the Fi user "steps back", and the Fe user steps forward, so the Fi steps back again, and the Fe steps forward. This keeps escalating until eventually the Fi no longer has anywhere to turn, and he blows up--not that he wants to, but he has been forced into it, and every bone in his body may be screaming out NO! but the means of communicating at a level that many Fe types understand just isn't there. 

And guess who always gets blamed? Yup, not the pusher, but the withdrawer who tried to avoid what he knew was coming from the very start. And then, he's called "unhealthy" or "selfish" or many other ugly words, when, in reality, it was the other person who was clueless, self-centered, and frequently, "uhhealthy" themselves. When an Fi user digs in, it's because the other crossed the line, and ignored or couldn't see the signs. Whose fault is that?


----------



## StoneMoon

ferroequinologist said:


> I don't see why? For every function, there is an equal and opposite function, which means that everybody will hate some other function, and the only reason is because it's the opposite function, and they tend to repel each other... to ask for reasons is nothing more than seeking justification for something that doesn't need it, at best, and at worst, it promotes and propagates stereotypes and negative impressions/feelings...


Because there already was an Fe one. <: D


----------



## ferroequinologist

StoneMoon said:


> Because there already was an Fe one. <: D


Well, then that makes sense! o..0:crazy:


----------



## Haydn

ferroequinologist said:


> Fi doesn't push... Introverted functions, by definition are functions that separate from or draws away... If an Fi user is pushing, he's pushing back against someone else pushing him into a corner where the only recourse left is pushing back.


To be honest, I did not say anything about pushing and that was not in my mind anywhere. I do not think I can say much about your comment as I probably do not really understand it. I guess you are probably right about it being a less pushy function than Fe overall but I do not know really. I do not see being 'pushy' as good or bad generally in any case.

On a more distant note, In the western world, it probably does not have to push much seeing that most people according to MBTI statistics have Fi as a function. It feels like it is everywhere to me and you are all communicating with each other via some secret Fi language.


----------



## JoanCrawford

Ekstasis said:


> I don't know why people would hate Fi, but I personally favor Fi...more so than Fe.


I like Fe because it's more warm and inviting, but Fi because it consists of a rich, fantastical inner world


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Haydn said:


> Fe craves the same and generally, I do not think most people want shallow.


Fe may crave the same, and want the same, although often they don't have it to give.....I'm talking about the function, not the person overall. Fe is conditioned to express what they feel in real time, universal truths are not deep, they are social expectations, something Fi deems as superficial/shallow.


----------



## Haydn

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Fe may crave the same, and want the same, although often they don't have it to give.....I'm talking about the function, not the person overall. Fe is conditioned to express what they feel in real time, universal truths are not deep, they are social expectations, something Fi deems as superficial/shallow.



No you are wrong. Fe types want deep love and also have deep love to give if they are normal regular human beings. You are no deeper than every Fe type, you are just different.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

ferroequinologist said:


> Fi doesn't push... Introverted functions, by definition are functions that separate from or draws away... If an Fi user is pushing, he's pushing back against someone else pushing him into a corner where the only recourse left is pushing back. Of course, if someone does this to him constantly over time, he may be conditioned to push back at the slightest provocation, but the original issue is the original pushing. And here is where Fe absolutely does not understand Fi. Fe is all about pushing others--to comment, to relate, to give feedback--always and constantly wanting and needing some sort of in-kind response. The problem is that if the Fi-user responds at all in kind, out of politeness and social awareness or propriety, then the Fe user takes that as a green light to just keep pushing, and over time, they eventually cross the line, because they cannot see that the Fi user is attempting to retreat, so the Fi user "steps back", and the Fe user steps forward, so the Fi steps back again, and the Fe steps forward. This keeps escalating until eventually the Fi no longer has anywhere to turn, and he blows up--not that he wants to, but he has been forced into it, and every bone in his body may be screaming out NO! but the means of communicating at a level that many Fe types understand just isn't there.
> 
> And guess who always gets blamed? Yup, not the pusher, but the withdrawer who tried to avoid what he knew was coming from the very start. And then, he's called "unhealthy" or "selfish" or many other ugly words, when, in reality, it was the other person who was clueless, self-centered, and frequently, "uhhealthy" themselves. When an Fi user digs in, it's because the other crossed the line, and ignored or couldn't see the signs. Whose fault is that?


Agreed, this is a very accurate description of Fi .....Fe is not only pushy, Fe crosses a lot of boundaries. It feels like they have a big stick, they keep poking the bear over and over....once the bear has had enough, it strikes back clawing their face...Fe will say the bear is the mean one........Also it has been my experience Fe enjoys group mentality...meaning they like to gang up on others and won't stop until Fi blows up, again Fi is the mean one.....Fe also enjoys sympathy, they like it when others feel sorry for them, this repulses Fi....so If we are pushed into a corner and feel like we have to participate in this pity party, Fi will come across as fake, bc we feel empathy for others, not sympathy.....at the end of the day Fi is usually the mean, cold, selfish heartless bitch......ONLY for those who don't get us, or don't understand our position, as a rule Fe will be the function to point it out. The upside is this, Fi doesn't internalize what Fe thinks, bc at the end of the day Fe over all is not relevant to the inner world of Fi.....OH and this word unhealthy, Fe will usually describe Fi users as unhealthy bc they are pissed they can't understand or comprehend Fi, so again, we must be the mean ones, the unhealthy ones, the crazy ones...haha...it makes Fi chuckle.:laughing:


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Haydn said:


> No you are wrong. Fe types want deep love and also have deep love to give if they are normal regular human beings. You are no deeper than every Fe type, you are just different.


Did you bother to read my response, NO, you didn't. What you did is read to respond, not understand. I specifically said NOT the type over all,( meaning person) so in a language you may understand, TYPES are not the same as a singular function. I stand by what I said, Fe doesn't have depth, Fe is shallow in the eyes of Fi only bc Fe follows social expectations /standards they consider absolute truth, or universal truths/laws/what is deems acceptable by society. This rubs Fi the wrong way bc in our inner world there is NO such thing as one size fits all.....I understand why you believe Fi is no deeper than Fe...because you can't possible feel the depth unless you are an Fi user..so you have nothing to compare.


----------



## ferroequinologist

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Did you bother to read my response, NO, you didn't. What you did is read to respond, not understand. I specifically said NOT the type over all,( meaning person) so in a language you may understand, TYPES are not the same as a singular function. I stand by what I said, Fe doesn't have depth, Fe is shallow in the eyes of Fi only bc Fe follows social expectations /standards they consider absolute truth, or universal truths/laws/what is deems acceptable by society. This rubs Fi the wrong way bc in our inner world there is NO such thing as one size fits all.....I understand why you believe Fi is no deeper than Fe...because you can't possible feel the depth unless you are an Fi user..so you have nothing to compare.


Well, I understood you. My wife is an INTP, and she loves very deeply and significantly. Her Fe is inferior, and tends to be used "self-defensively", and as such, tends to be more "two dimensional", but that doesn't change the fact that she loves deeply, and I would never accuse her of being shallow, and I never would have accused you of saying she did. I read your post and understood your intent.


----------



## Sixty Nein

@MuChApArAdOx

I think you are ascribing characteristics that may not actually be something that exists? It seems like such a divide in characteristics likely does not really exist in that form or manner. If you wanted to complain about Fe, then there is a a Fe one for you. Granted I find it sort of pointless to complain about. I can't exactly say that a Fe or Fi type of whatever level would really be innately more inclined towards being pitied. Then again I am likely undifferentiated as far as Feeling and Thinking is concerned so who the hell knows? I would say that the many Fi types that generally enjoy it whenever I "understand them" is a form of sympathy giving right? 

Besides, I think both sympathy and empathy is needed for the complete totality of the human experience. Being sympathetic doesn't necessarily mean licking wounds like a dog, but it does mean that you actually show a sort of human concern. I empathize with quite a few people, doesn't mean that I show it if I don't feel like it.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Sixty Nein said:


> @MuChApArAdOx
> 
> I think you are ascribing characteristics that may not actually be something that exists? It seems like such a divide in characteristics likely does not really exist in that form or manner. If you wanted to complain about Fe, then there is a a Fe one for you. Granted I find it sort of pointless to complain about. I can't exactly say that a Fe or Fi type of whatever level would really be innately more inclined towards being pitied. Then again I am likely undifferentiated as far as Feeling and Thinking is concerned so who the hell knows? I would say that the many Fi types that generally enjoy it whenever I "understand them" is a form of sympathy giving right?
> 
> Besides, I think both sympathy and empathy is needed for the complete totality of the human experience. Being sympathetic doesn't necessarily mean licking wounds like a dog, but it does mean that you actually show a sort of human concern. I empathize with quite a few people, doesn't mean that I show it if I don't feel like it.


You missed the point completely, so therefore I have no real response. ENFP hate Repeating themselves, it isn't Fi specific, its type over function. Have you considered another type for yourself ?.....I can't help but see Ti written all over your post.....complain ?....how can you possible confuse opinions with complaints....anyway, I'm reading Fe/Ti in your post, not Fi/or Te......wait for it:laughing::laughing::tongue:


----------



## Sixty Nein

MuChApArAdOx said:


> You missed the point completely, so therefore I have no real response. ENFP hate Repeating themselves, it isn't Fi specific, its type over function. Have you considered another type for yourself ?.....I can't help but see Ti written all over your post.....complain ?....how can you possible confuse opinions with complaints....anyway, I'm reading Fe/Ti in your post, not Fi/or Te......wait for it:laughing::laughing::tongue:


What point is there to be had? All I am seeing is you pointing out various gripes that you have. As far as I can recall extroversion in general is seen as shallow, so your own gripes with the shallowness of Fe might actually have some sort of gravity towards it. However a side that you should consider here is that the history and reasoning behind the particular extroverted feeling may actually have quite a bit of depth and angles towards it. Extroverted Feeling to those who use it, is quite sincere and you may not see it as sincere and sometimes I do not see it as sincere, however it is true to their own feelings. They just mix up their own response and use the outside as a reflection of that. That is all what Fe is, and you'll see that the social conventions that Fe adapts itself may actually be counter-culture. There are a lot of things outside of us, so it makes sense for the extrovert to meld themselves to it. Depth is something that doesn't actually really exist, it is a feeling judgement.

Besides, at the moment I view myself as a Ni-dominant with a preference for just thinking. So I could go either way as far as the judgement functions are concerned. Besides I think I'm being quite objective here? My own conception of the types aren't very uniquely myself but it could very well be Ti.


----------



## Dyidia

Anywho, I find it ironic that this is becoming an "Fe lacks depth/No it doesn't" thread. A lot of the bullshit would go away if this became an Fi vs Ti thread. Introverted functions in general are more personal and depth oriented. 

That's just how they are. And everyone has some.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Cotillion said:


> well, like the other day
> 
> this friend of mine had a disgusted look on her face and she said, "Did you know that 2 out of every 3 people live next to a pedophile?"
> 
> i said, "Not me, I live next to two smoking hot 10 year olds".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 666 posts \-.-/













Thank you for killing the ludicrous stereotype that INFJs can't be extremely playful and funny and into dark humour.


----------



## LostFavor

ferroequinologist said:


> Fi doesn't push... Introverted functions, by definition are functions that separate from or draws away... If an Fi user is pushing, he's pushing back against someone else pushing him into a corner where the only recourse left is pushing back. Of course, if someone does this to him constantly over time, he may be conditioned to push back at the slightest provocation, but the original issue is the original pushing. And here is where Fe absolutely does not understand Fi. Fe is all about pushing others--to comment, to relate, to give feedback--always and constantly wanting and needing some sort of in-kind response. The problem is that if the Fi-user responds at all in kind, out of politeness and social awareness or propriety, then the Fe user takes that as a green light to just keep pushing, and over time, they eventually cross the line, because they cannot see that the Fi user is attempting to retreat, so the Fi user "steps back", and the Fe user steps forward, so the Fi steps back again, and the Fe steps forward. This keeps escalating until eventually the Fi no longer has anywhere to turn, and he blows up--not that he wants to, but he has been forced into it, and every bone in his body may be screaming out NO! but the means of communicating at a level that many Fe types understand just isn't there.
> 
> And guess who always gets blamed? Yup, not the pusher, but the withdrawer who tried to avoid what he knew was coming from the very start. And then, he's called "unhealthy" or "selfish" or many other ugly words, when, in reality, it was the other person who was clueless, self-centered, and frequently, "uhhealthy" themselves. When an Fi user digs in, it's because the other crossed the line, and ignored or couldn't see the signs. Whose fault is that?


Not to undermine what you're saying, but this is why it's so essential to set boundaries with people. Most Fe users I've known won't push beyond a certain point if I draw my lines clearly in the sand. Occasionally I might have to remind them where the lines are, but they're usually pretty accommodating about it in my experience.

Mainly, Fe-doms are what come to mind for this (ENFJ, ESFJ). I don't see a lot of pushing from the introverted ones - maybe some occasional nudging, but that's about it. Probably because they understand the experience of keeping a lot on the inside.


----------



## Brother

Cotillion said:


> well, like the other day
> 
> this friend of mine had a disgusted look on her face and she said, "Did you know that 2 out of every 3 people live next to a pedophile?"
> 
> i said, "Not me, I live next to two smoking hot 10 year olds".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 666 posts \-.-/


Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm drying actual tears of laughter right now.


----------



## Haydn

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Did you bother to read my response, NO, you didn't. What you did is read to respond, not understand. I specifically said NOT the type over all,( meaning person) so in a language you may understand, TYPES are not the same as a singular function. I stand by what I said, Fe doesn't have depth, Fe is shallow in the eyes of Fi only bc Fe follows social expectations /standards they consider absolute truth, or universal truths/laws/what is deems acceptable by society. This rubs Fi the wrong way bc in our inner world there is NO such thing as one size fits all.....I understand why you believe Fi is no deeper than Fe...because you can't possible feel the depth unless you are an Fi user..so you have nothing to compare.


but the types have and use the function even if they are not the function itself and you made it seem like Fi made you more capable of deep, crazy love or however you described it about 2 or 3 of your posts ago. Your argument, especially the last part makes no sense me. You are saying that I cannot understand the depth of an Fi user but neither can you understand the depth of an Fe user going by your own argument. We love with no less depth than you do. We do not love our parents our children or whoever any less that you do because Fe does not prevent us from feeling deep feelings for individual others regardless of social expectation or whatever.

I have Fe and I do not know much about social expectations in any case, I am a loner and an introvert and you probably know much more about social expectations than I do given that you are an extrovert and have Si which I think is the function that really puts people in touch with social expectations/traditions. I hate when Fe is made to be this mindless, non reflective function that is all about group dynamics and social expectations. .


----------



## Kabosu

Fi is like a bait I take and feel so excited about since we don't have to be sugar coated and PC, but then that often turns out better in theory than execution.


----------



## dulcinea

I agree, too, that Fi's differ a lot from person to person. I don't think it's fair for a person to make a sweeping opinion about Fi, or Fi users, because it's so idiosynchratic. From what I've read and seen, so far, Fi's are people who act and behave based what they feel is the right way to act or the right thing to do. But the "right" thing can differ so much from person to person. Fe's tend to be a lot more consistent from person to person, because Fe's tend to want to conform more to what the over all consensus states is the proper standard for behavior, but Fi's tend to want to do their own thing, and to do what they feel is best for them... that does not necessarily mean that all Fi's are selfish. That is a huge misconception. Some Fi types are selfish, and some are, totally, selfless givers, because they feel that's the right way to be.I find Fi fascinates me a great deal.

Each Fi person, I find, comes with their own set of rules or standards for themselves. The only thing that I've seen that's been consistent with Fi's is that they strike me as being more deeply appreciative of whatever positivity that you feed toward them. Not to say taht Fe types aren't appreciative, but I always say that Fe's gush out more, but Fi's seem to hold in more, like a well that absorbs whatever you feed into it. Idk if this is a good analogy, but I find Fe types are like geisers, and Fi types are like wells.


----------



## pianodog

The cognitive pairings makes a huge difference too. I myself, am strongly Fi, I don't doubt that, Sometimes I will not care about others because I'm focused on myself but that usually doesn't last, I tend to really care about other people so I'm glad for that. Having a strong Te with Fi helps to rationalize my feelings so I can stay somewhat objective. 

One thing I've noticed is its kind of about perspective. Fi users look at the world through themselves and their value systems. Basically, even if it's about someone else's problems, we still tend to look at it through our feelings and morals. Even though I'm dominant Ne and have different opinions from different sides of an argument, I STILL look at my perspective as the strongest point, it's hard not to. 

Fe looks at the world from the world's perspective. It takes into account, the fashion, the trends, the morals, the customs and hurts when others hurt. It probably emphasizes quite a bit. Fe is difficult for me to understand. 

It's like this: A Fe might see a murder of a child with a hurting family as a tragedy and feel the family's pain, or the general negative energy. Fi on the other hand might see it and feel hurt themselves. Fi tend to focus on themselves and their belief system. Generally, many Fe's probably consider being politically correct and not offending people where as Fi's probably don't give a crap about being correct on a massive scale simply because OTHERS do. We more less might not want to offend someone because we might have values to be nice to people and therefore don't wanna offend them. This means that if an Fi user cared about being politically correct, it would definitely come from the their own value system. 

This is probably what many don't like about Fi is that we care about our OWN values, we don't care about the masses values. Or at least this is what I understand from it. This is why we often get into trouble because we don't give consideration to other's ideas if it completely clashes with our own. This really depends on the type and the person, Ne with Fi-Te is more open minded than something like a dominant Fi.


----------



## pianodog

Also, one other thing to note is that Fi users suck at being in unfamiliar environments with different ethics. For example, my brother (INFJ) has Fe so he easily knows what to say, he easily knows how to talk and act in an unfamiliar setting. As an Fi, I get irritated quickly when trying to use Fe, Fe is like sitting at a job interview knowing what to say and trying to feel the situation like others. I've grown to stop trying to use Fe for this, it doesn't work and when I try to use Fe it comes across as awkward and robotic. 

We have strengths so we should try to develop those, I also have found that trying to use Ti fails me, I have to think aloud and speak my thoughts to do anything.


----------



## metaphor

dulcinea said:


> I agree, too,* that Fi's differ a lot from person to person. I don't think it's fair for a person to make a sweeping opinion about Fi, or Fi users , because it's so idiosynchratic.*
> 
> * Fi's tend to want to do their own thing, and to do what they feel is best for them... that does not necessarily mean that all Fi's are selfish. That is a huge misconception. Some Fi types are selfish, and some are, totally, selfless givers, because they feel that's the right way to be*


THANK YOU










and a hug:


----------



## ferroequinologist

pianodog said:


> We more less might not want to offend someone because we might have values to be nice to people and therefore don't wanna offend them. This means that if an Fi user cared about being politically correct, it would definitely come from the their own value system.
> 
> This is probably what many don't like about Fi is that we care about our OWN values, we don't care about the masses values. Or at least this is what I understand from it. This is why we often get into trouble because we don't give consideration to other's ideas if it completely clashes with our own. This really depends on the type and the person, Ne with Fi-Te is more open minded than something like a dominant Fi.


I think the simplest way to define the difference between Fi and Fe is what makes us feel guilty when forced to compromise. The Fi type will feel guilty compromising his values for the sake of the whole/others, while the Fe type will feel guilty compromising the whole/others for the sake of himself. So, while we may both do the same thing--compromise to reach a middle agreement--we will feel that sense of guilt from different ends. Also, while we may value the same thing, or come to the same conclusions and act in the same way, what is driving us there will come from the opposite orientation. It is in the negotiation, and frequently in the act of the compromise that we make Fe feel uncomfortable, just as much as they make us feel uncomfortable. I think, sometimes, that while Ti and Te have the same sorts of issues, because they are thinking-related, they don't carry the emotional baggage that the feeling values do. 


As to functions--yeah, the place in your function stack does change things. Fi in the auxiliary position has, as its primary role, to support your Ne. And since Te is your tertiary, you are more facile with it, and it works more in conjunction with your Fi (like our Ni works better with our Se than it does with the ESFP). But still, it is subservient to your Fi.


----------



## Coburn

Personally, I try avoid situations that bring my Fi to the surface. It rubs people the wrong way. 

Most people see it as some form of superiority? Maybe arrogance? The problem is that most people want to start at the discussion level when it comes to feelings. They want the whole matter of how we should feel about X or Y to be a conversation. A running dialogue.

That isn't how Fi works. The only person that gets to have a conversation about Fi is me, myself, and I. No third party needed or wanted. 

But that's the problem. Fi solves itself internally in the privacy of the inner mind. So by the time it does reach the social, external world, it comes across an an inflexible, unchangeable, unalterable wall.

That really tends to bother people. Especially people who think feelings should be a matter of mutual consensus? Or at least get some external validation?

Fi isn't blind or inflexible. But it usually needs privacy to decide how to handle new information. The process isn't a shareable thing.


I tend to offend people when I state my beliefs. I think the problem is that I express them in a way that makes it very clear my beliefs (feelings?) are not up for negotiation. There's no room for discussion. What's there is there.

It doesn't help that most of my opinions are not in line with generational trends. That makes things worse.


----------



## lue

Marlowe said:


> Most people see it as some form of superiority? Maybe arrogance? The problem is that most people want to start at the discussion level when it comes to feelings. They want the whole matter of how we should feel about X or Y to be a conversation. A running dialogue.


Yeah, that's hard for me to understand. But then again I don't use Fe, so...


----------



## Promethea

Because most people don't understand what Fi actually is. They get some weird idea of it based on bias and stereotypes, that it means: "someone who is emotionally reactive with weird ideas that I don't agree with, oh and passive-aggressive."

Alternately, some Fe types can have issues with Fi types, because they don't like [as they perceive] playing guessing-games with someone's emotions.


----------



## ferroequinologist

Promethea said:


> Because most people don't understand what Fi actually is. They get some weird idea of it based on bias and stereotypes, that it means: "someone who is emotionally reactive with weird ideas that I don't agree with, oh and passive-aggressive."
> 
> Alternately, some Fe types can have issues with Fi types, because they don't like [as they perceive] playing guessing-games with someone's emotions.


While out walking today (and getting attacked by crows, believe it or not!) I was thinking about this whole Fe/Fi thing, and I thought of something...

Fi is really nothing more than feelings directed toward self--at least as a raw, simple function. How do _I_ feel about myself... The typical Fi type personality, however, is completely comfortable thinking about such questions, and works things out in their own head, and outside interference feels like just that--interference. However, for Fe types, that question, how I feel about myself (or whatever they feel about), is uncomfortable to them insofar as they really either can't work it out on their own, or they must express it or share it for it to have meaning or shape for them. So, when they are forced to keep it in, they struggle, feel "off". It feels like they are under pressure, and would explode or something... So, for them, Fi-types, by keeping it in, by not talking about it, put them in an awkward situation. So, when we don't reciprocate, it it like stopping up their safety valve. Just simple interactions between the two create a tension, as Fi seems to absorb while Fe desires or needs some kind of response. It is not so much that we feel anything different, at the core, but what we _do_ with it--or where we aim it--creates the tension. 

I think that, as a result of these differences in orientation, we develop certain abilities or skills that are associated with them (Fe being able to and preferring the group over the individual, and Fi having depth of feeling over breadth, for example), but those are really offshoots of the basic--that Fe goes outward, and Fi inward--starting from the same point.

I guess this is true for all the functions, but for me, due to my Fi-dominance, I feel I understand this dichotomy a little better. I need to think about this stuff regarding sensing next, I suppose, but this is the sort of train of thought I've been riding.


----------



## Kintsugi

Idk about Fi with Ne, but I find that Fi paired with Se can be perceived by some Fi-non valuers as selfish, harsh, judgmental, intolerant, and vindictive.


----------



## pianodog

Kintsugi said:


> Idk about Fi with Ne, but I find that Fi paired with Se can be perceived by some Fi-non valuers as selfish, harsh, judgmental, intolerant, and vindictive.


Yeah, my dad is ESFJ and can be quite stubborn. Ne Fi basically allows me to see multiple angles of my beliefs. I can see how it effects others as well as multiple interpretations of my ideas. Im still pretty firm in my values but my Ne helps me see many sides of an issue, as well as makes me a tad undecisice about what I feel about something.


----------



## Kintsugi

pianodog said:


> Yeah, my dad is ESFJ and can be quite stubborn. Ne Fi basically allows me to see multiple angles of my beliefs. I can see how it effects others as well as multiple interpretations of my ideas. Im still pretty firm in my values but my Ne helps me see many sides of an issue, as well as makes me a tad undecisice about what I feel about something.


ESFJ is an Fe type? *confused*

I also can still see multiple angles and other perspectives. I'm just more likely to (literally) blow up in your face and force you to feel/experience my wrath if you seriously piss me off.


----------



## HBIC

Marlowe said:


> Personally, I try avoid situations that bring my Fi to the surface. It rubs people the wrong way.
> 
> Most people see it as some form of superiority? Maybe arrogance? The problem is that most people want to start at the discussion level when it comes to feelings. They want the whole matter of how we should feel about X or Y to be a conversation. A running dialogue.
> 
> That isn't how Fi works.* The only person that gets to have a conversation about Fi is me, myself, and I. No third party needed or wanted.
> 
> But that's the problem. Fi solves itself internally in the privacy of the inner mind. So by the time it does reach the social, external world, it comes across an an inflexible, unchangeable, unalterable wall.
> 
> That really tends to bother people. Especially people who think feelings should be a matter of mutual consensus? Or at least get some external validation?*
> 
> Fi isn't blind or inflexible. But *it usually needs privacy to decide how to handle new information. The process isn't a shareable thing.
> 
> 
> I tend to offend people when I state my beliefs. I think the problem is that I express them in a way that makes it very clear my beliefs (feelings?) are not up for negotiation. There's no room for discussion. What's there is there.
> 
> It doesn't help that most of my opinions are not in line with generational trends. That makes things worse.*


_GOD,_ THIS!!!











Kintsugi said:


> ESFJ is an Fe type? *confused*
> 
> I also can still see multiple angles and other perspectives. I'm just more likely to (literally) blow up in your face and force you to feel/experience my wrath if you seriously piss me off.


ESFJ= *Fe *+ Si + Ne +Ti


----------

