# INTP/ISFJ split personality? Confused again.



## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Okay, I’m back to doubting my type again. I did some more thinking and soul searching and I’m thinking I might be an ISFJ who just has a lot of weird INTP tendencies. 

I find that I rely heavily on past experience and what I already know to guide me through situations. The first thing I always ask myself is how does this relate to what I already know and have experienced? I am capable of navigating new situations if I can see some relationship between this situation and a past one but if it’s totally new with no previous experience or knowledge base to draw upon, I’m totally lost and tend to panic. So is this indicative of Si (dominant for ISFJ)? I think it is but then again, doesn’t everybody do/think this to some extent? 

I know the cognitive function tests tend to be flawed by I always score good to excellent use of Si on the Keys to Cognition one. The Personality Café one, though has my Si as one of the weaker functions.

I know that I tend to notice when something has changed from how it was in the past. I can be exhaustively thorough on things, making sure nothing is left out. I’m always spotting certain details like typos and smudges on paper. Yet in other ways I’m not so detail oriented. I don’t always have the best spatial awareness of objects. When navigating a new workplace, I’m not naturally good at paying attention to where all the objects in the room are located, especially if I rarely use them. Sometimes I actually have to take notes on where to find certain things, especially if there isn’t much logic to where its placed and the location seems rather arbitrary.

I think my Si is stronger than my Se by far. I’m good at selectively paying attention to certain details that are of personal interest or importance to me but if the details don’t pertain to me, I often overlook them.

I’m not sure I’m as strongly intuitive as the tests make me out to be. Sure I value imagination and out of the box thinking and insights and original thought and questioning convention. But just because you value something doesn’t mean it’s a strong suit of yours. When I really think about it, I don’t think I’m by nature all that inventive or original in my thinking. I think I’m naturally better at taking some tried and true idea or process and maybe tweaking it a bit, seeing where the flaws are and improving upon that rather than inventing something totally new. I think I admire the way intuitives think and I envy some of the original ideas that they can come up with because I know that I probably wouldn’t have thought of that in a million years. I remember back in school when we had creative writing and art assignments that emphasized originality and how much of a strain on my brain it was to produce something original. What I basically ended up doing was taking a familiar situation and slightly changing a few variables. I think sometimes I answer questions on tests based on what I value more personally and that’s why usually test as N. I hate thinking myself as not being very original in my thinking. I want to be thought of as an interesting person. If you’re overly conventional in thinking, how interesting is that? Maybe I’m interesting in other respects. Originality isn’t everything. Practicality has some value. The world also needs followers of the new ideas created. 

Yet on the other hand, I’m extremely introspective and capable of deep thinking and going what’s beyond the surface. I can be rather absent minded and not always fully in the moment. I think a lot about the future and like creating my own theories for the phenomena around me.

I also think I tend to score as N because the tests are flawed and make N sound more intelligent than S, as if they are capable of higher level thinking and S types are not. It’s true that I’ve always scored high on IQ tests.

Another reason for doubting my N stems back from my childhood. I’m good at abstract thinking and making inferences now but not so much in my childhood. I remember struggling in reading class when we were asked questions regarding the underlying motives of peoples’ behavior. I expected everything to be explicitly stated in the text and was virtually incapable of correctly answering the more inferential questions. It wasn’t until I was about 12 that my ability to think more abstractly and make inferences started to kick in. Yet I learned to read earlier than average and had a large vocabulary. 

As a child, so much of the description for Aspergers syndrome fit me. I think that confuses things because I could really be an ISFJ with weaker Fe as a result of Aspergers, causing me to come across as more INTP like. People with Aspergers also tend to take things overly literal, which was definitely a problem as a child and still to some extent today. As a kid, I didn’t understand the concept of sarcasm and just assumed that people always meant what they said.

In some ways I think personality is the most pure as a kid, before external influences kick in and someone is pressured to act counter to preference. In some ways I was INTP like but in many ways I wasn’t. Like INTPs, I loved learning and I loved creating systems, especially classification systems. I collected things pertaining to my area of interest, although this could have also been attributed to Si. I also hated to do things just because “I said so” and could be awfully stubborn. I tended to have obsessive interests and I could go on and on about a subject and wanted to know everything about it. Yet, this could be just part of the Aspergers. 

I read Please Understand Me by Keirsey and I remember relating very much to both the NT and the SJ descriptions. Supposedly those temperaments are opposite but I was an outlier in that sense. Like NTs, I love learning and knowledge and place a very high premium on competency and self-sufficiency. I was also brutally honest, sometimes to the point of being tactless (this could just be Aspergers though). Like SJs, I was very security oriented , reliable, and had a strong need to belong. I didn’t like a whole lot of changes thrust upon me. I remember as a child, I hated changes in plans, especially when it was something I was looking forward to. I was rather intense as a child, definitely not easygoing or laid back like so many of the INTP descriptions. I had a strong sense of how things and people should be and didn't hesistate to point this out. 

It was my SJ qualities that set me apart from other INTPs. Reading the INTP forums, I can see how I’m different from other INTPs in many respects. I was the student who wanted to do my assignments according to the guidelines and finish them in on time. I cared about getting gold stars from the teachers (something that doesn’t mean anything to NTs according to Keirsey). I had a stronger need to please others and fit in. Yet I didn’t fit in much in school- largely because of my Asperger traits, I think. Yet I wasn’t as schedule oriented as some of the other SJ children were and procrastinated a lot on homework yet always made the deadline. It was true I’d do my assignments according to expectations but I sure didn’t hesitate to complain about those expectations. I guess when it comes to it, I feel to compliant to be an INTP and too questioning of how things are done to be ISFJ.

Additionally, I waited to do chores until I was threatened to lose privileges otherwise. I wasn’t inclined to gladly pitch like stated in the SJ description. 

To be continued in the next post. Yes, this is going to be long but the more that’s said the more accurate the assessment.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

*Part 2*

Another factor that confuses things is my mother's influence. My parents, especially my mother didn't know what to make of me. My mom is an ISFJ and I think that had alot of influence as to my upbringing. 

I wasn't the easiest child growing up. I was very stubborn and set in my ways. I was very intelligent in some areas, and horribly lacking in others. Aspergers if that's what I had (never got an official diagnosis) didn't help. 

If I was an INTP, then I think that my INTPness wasn't all that encouraged. I raised to be the sort of person to not make waves and to do your duty. Don't question authority- all rules are there for a good reason. You're not as good as you think you are, Don't be a show off. Don't be selfish. Always be polite. Safety first. You should have talked to me first. Put others' needs ahead of your own. Whether explictly stated or not, those were the sorts of messages that got pounded into my brain over and over again.

I know my mom just wanted the best for me and wanted me to be happy and I love her dearly, yet some of the programming I've received from her has been harmful and I've had to unlearn some of it. This is especially true of the not questioning authority part. Authority is not always right and some people to abuse their power. If people didn’t question authority, it would be hard to make true progress. 


Another factor that complicates the issue is that by nature I am a highly sensitive and emotional person. This puts me at odds sometimes with INTP. Like N, I sometimes think I answer T on tests because I am highly intelligent and do think and analyze things a lot. 


I also admit that for some questions I answer how I’d like to be. I know that emotionally I’m rather vulnerable and thin skinned and I’ve love to be more detached and have things not get to me so much. I’m overly sensitive to how others perceive me and I’m very self-conscious. I want everyone to like me and it bothers me when someone doesn’t, even if I hardly know the person. I really get hurt when people can’t accept me for the person I am. Most INTPs, are far more tough and thick skinned than I am.


I have a strong need for harmony and I’m very sensitive to emotional vibes that others give off. I’m not the best at reading the precise nuances of body languages but I can instantly tell if someone is giving off a pleasant or an unpleasant vibe and its very difficult for me to ignore that impression. I have a very difficult time being comfortable around people who give off any sort of vibe that hints at being angry or displeased. 


I have strong opinions as far as how people should interact with other to facilitate harmonious interactions free from strife. I expect people to be polite to each other and respect others’ differences. I don’t handle conflict well and it can literally make me sick. I have a hard time relating to those who keep putting their foot in their mouth and don’t realize how hurtful their words can be. 

I have a strong need to please others and because I want harmonious interaction, I often put others’ needs ahead of my own. I think this is a hallmark ISFJ trait. Sometimes when I hear their problems, mine are minimal by comparision. I also sometimes feel like if I don’t help them, then who will and if I don’t help them, then I could get blamed for their misery, which would make me very uncomfortable.

At work, I’ve even been told that sometimes I’m overly accommodating to customers’ needs. This can be both good and bad. Sometimes I’ll help out in things that really isn’t part of my job description because I have the knowledge to do so and I hate to just leave the person hanging. I’ll often help out with things that other coworkers would refuse to help out with because they know their requests take too much time to fulfill and don’t see it as their responsibility anyway. Sometimes I have trouble saying no to others’ requests. 


In my social interactions, I often let others take the lead as to what to do. For example, if we are deciding what game to play, I usually say something like it doesn’t matter to me. And truthfully, it usually doesn’t. I’m there more for the interaction itself. Some people in the group though are very adamant about wanting or not wanting to play certain games. Even if the game isn’t a favorite of mine, I’m usually silent and go along with what other people want. I didn’t always used to be this way though. As a kid, I was rather insistent on having my way and pissed people off. My mother drilled into my brain that I was being too selfish and now I feel like the pendulum has swung the opposite way.


I will take the lead though, if others are reluctant to do so and can actually be quite an effective leader. Yet I have a hard time pushing my ideas on others. I’m very sensitive to having my own ideas rejected and often don’t put them out there as much as I should. For example, I might suggest a game we could play but if no one seems interested I won’t likely ask again and may feel hurt that my idea was rejected even though I know its nothing against me personally.


It’s take time for me to realize just how strongly a role Fe has played in my life. Even though function tests don’t always show it, I think I do have a strong Fe. I think because I am introverted, I don’t always facilitate much social interactions, which I think brings down the score somewhat. So I could very well have an auxiliary Fe function. Yet what makes me doubt this is that I identify with inferior Fe descriptions more than inferior Ne ones. ISFJ just seems better than me at navigating gracefully through all the different types of social interactions. They seem better than me at smoothing things over, whereas for me, it seems more awkward. Also, I certainly wasn’t very adept in Fe as a child and made a lot of social faux pas when young. I doubt ISFJ because they seem to get more joy in life from Fe whereas for me it feels more like a force that has to be reckoned with. 


ISFJ seems to naturally enjoy helping and being of service to others and seems to be a large part of their identity and find it very fulfilling. I actually don’t enjoy it that much. I only enjoy helping others on my own terms. Anything else feels like an imposition. 


Also, I have a very hard time letting go of past hurts and injustices. I forgive but I never forget. It’s easy for me when I’m sad to just think about all the past hurts I’ve experienced in excruciating detail. I wish I had thicker skin. It sucks being so sensitive. One time I even cried over how sensitive I was. Talk about a catch-22. I actually think this part may be Fi related, which is why I also identify somewhat with INFP. I know a lot of INFPs who struggle with this sort of thing.


Finally, I’m more open to new ideas and experiences than most ISFJs tend to be. I’m more curious, more willing to try new approaches, and less bogged down in tradition. I know when there are changes to be made in the workplace, sometimes I feel like I’m one of the few that’s excited about the idea. I see all the possibilities the new idea can bring and don’t mind taking the time to learn the new skills. If the learning curve is going to be too steep though, then I will complain. When moving to a new city, I’m excited by all the possibilities it will bring moreso than complaining about the things I’ll have to give up. I trust my ability to adapt to the situation. Yet occasionally I find myself catastrophizing as described by inferior Ne but compared to my ISFJ mother, she does that a lot more. So I have doubts about inferior Ne.

Okay, I’m finally done for now!


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

You give off an ISFJ vibe to me. You seem more dutiful and detail oriented than INTP's...more structured...reliable vibe...more caring vibe. Si and Ti both love learning and the ISFJ and INTP have both! Since many ISFJ's may have a strong Ti and vice versa, one could see confusion, but a good way of being sure is what is done more for its own sake. I am good at keeping track of details when it comes to relating them to theories and getting facts straight, but get me to manage pure statistics, or keep track of how much money is in the cash till, or follow detailed instructions quickly and efficiently, or gauge what is practical, and I lose it...I can't cope and actually start to panic. You can think about how you use your Ti. Do you logically pick things apart just for the sake of it, or is it to aid you in advancing a practical agenda? An INTP will discuss the logic in something (or bite their tongue) if it is off, but not for any practical reason, just for getting the logic correct. Making sure the understanding is crystal clear, since to understand is our final goal. Ti dominance is also going to care more about systematizing facts and relating them to the principles they represent with intuition...sussing out the hidden law that INTP's subconsciously believe governs everything in the universe. Facts will always be valued for their relation to other facts and the hidden patterns that we delight in perceiving intuitively (Ne), which is ultimately only valued because these patterns betray principles or laws that give us understanding of the workings of the universe (Ti). (I use the term universe generally, not referring to physics or anything, though INTP's tend to be talented at that). This understanding gives us a feeling of empowerment. To intuit the systematic reason why...to discover (what precisely varies greatly)...is the final purpose of the INTP's mind. If you can relate to that, you are probably INTP.

I also relate to inferior aspiration. I'm positive I'm INTP, but my emotions occupy an almost sacred place in my psyche. In creative writing assignments in high school (to use your example) my issue was almost never originality, but rather a complete lack of understanding of character development. (My ENTP drama teacher noted my weakness and docked me marks for it but didn't care and praised my assignment, recommending it for the festival, my ENFJ writing instructor thought I was about the worst thing on earth and as deluded as Ed Wood...you could just tell by the look on his face whenever I discussed my passion for writing with him...but was too sensitive to tell me!:laughing: Since his F came before his N, I guess that'd make sense). Writing dark melodrama is totally my guilty pleasure!:crazy:

Anyway, I've always felt a bit in common with ISFJ's so it would surprise me if the reverse is true. What ever type you are, seeing ISFJ and INTP together shows you are definitely on the way to shedding a little more light on yourself!


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> Like INTPs, I loved learning and I loved creating systems, especially classification systems. I collected things pertaining to my area of interest, although this could have also been attributed to Si. I also hated to do things just because “I said so” and could be awfully stubborn. I tended to have obsessive interests and I could go on and on about a subject and wanted to know everything about it. Yet, this could be just part of the Aspergers...I read Please Understand Me by Keirsey and I remember relating very much to both the NT and the SJ descriptions. Supposedly those temperaments are opposite but I was an outlier in that sense. Like NTs, I love learning and knowledge and place a very high premium on competency and self-sufficiency. I was also brutally honest, sometimes to the point of being tactless (this could just be Aspergers though). Like SJs, I was very security oriented , reliable, and had a strong need to belong. I didn’t like a whole lot of changes thrust upon me. I remember as a child, I hated changes in plans, especially when it was something I was looking forward to. I was rather intense as a child, definitely not easygoing or laid back like so many of the INTP descriptions. I had a strong sense of how things and people should be and didn't hesistate to point this out. It was my SJ qualities that set me apart from other INTPs. Reading the INTP forums, I can see how I’m different from other INTPs in many respects. I was the student who wanted to do my assignments according to the guidelines and finish them in on time. I cared about getting gold stars from the teachers (something that doesn’t mean anything to NTs according to Keirsey). I had a stronger need to please others and fit in. Yet I didn’t fit in much in school- largely because of my Asperger traits, I think. Yet I wasn’t as schedule oriented as some of the other SJ children were and procrastinated a lot on homework yet always made the deadline. It was true I’d do my assignments according to expectations but I sure didn’t hesitate to complain about those expectations. I guess when it comes to it, I feel to compliant to be an INTP and too questioning of how things are done to be ISFJ. Additionally, I waited to do chores until I was threatened to lose privileges otherwise. I wasn’t inclined to gladly pitch like stated in the SJ description.


The things I've underlined were also applicable to me as a child. I don't know the level of relevance that they have in determining type, but I would suspect an SJs motivation and an NTs motivation for doing those things might be where the difference lies.

I don't know how long it has been since you lived at home, but my children had to move out for 2-3 years before they became secure in their type identity. While living at home it seemed as though their preferences aligned more closely with one or the other of their parents, depending on the child.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't have time to read your entire post right now, but I'll try to make my way back to this and compare it to myself. I sometimes doubt my N vs S too and just by skimming through it this seems like what you doubt the most. 

In the meantime, try this test:

Career Test

I've found it to be quite accurate as far as typing goes. 

And I will at least say this... sometimes when I see people posting on here, I don't think they are INTP and I think they've been mistyped. I do not get that vibe from you. Granted, I have not exactly analyzed every word you say, and I haven't read this entire post or anything but... yeah. And the only ISFJs I know are my mum and my therapist, so I'm not sure how much help I will be when I come back.


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## Verrsili (Jun 13, 2010)

Do you like knowledge for the sake of knowledge or knowledge in order to use it? (Si would search to the past and find this knowledge and use it)


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## Lionheart (Nov 30, 2010)

I know that I tend to notice when something has changed from how it was in the past. I can be exhaustively thorough on things, making sure nothing is left out. I’m always spotting certain details like typos and smudges on paper. Yet in other ways I’m not so detail oriented. I don’t always have the best spatial awareness of objects. When navigating a new workplace, I’m not naturally good at paying attention to where all the objects in the room are located, especially if I rarely use them. Sometimes I actually have to take notes on where to find certain things, especially if there isn’t much logic to where its placed and the location seems rather arbitrary.

sounds tertiary Si to me :O
Idk, it's really hard to say but all ur characteristics really remind me of my INTP friend who has a prty strong Si and Fe as well


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

nevermore said:


> You give off an ISFJ vibe to me. You seem more dutiful and detail oriented than INTP's...more structured...reliable vibe...more caring vibe. Si and Ti both love learning and the ISFJ and INTP have both! Since many ISFJ's may have a strong Ti and vice versa, one could see confusion, but a good way of being sure is what is done more for its own sake. I am good at keeping track of details when it comes to relating them to theories and getting facts straight, but get me to manage pure statistics, or keep track of how much money is in the cash till, or follow detailed instructions quickly and efficiently, or gauge what is practical, and I lose it...I can't cope and actually start to panic.


I have a hard time determining my dominant function! I look back on my childhood and I seemed to have used alot of both! The same is true with the auxilary function. I use alot of Ne and Fe when I'm extraverting. I don't think I would have too much trouble managing pure statistics and I am good at managing money. It puzzles me that there are people who have trouble balancing their checkbook. As far as following detailed instructions goes, it really depends on the situation. I get easily overwhelmed when alot of information is thrown at me at once. Once I've mastered a complex procedure though, I'm good to go. What helps me is knowing how all the steps fit into a larger picture and why each step is necessary (something I didn't exactly receive alot of in my schooling.) I think that's more typical of INTP thinking. As far as gauging what's practical goes, again that largely depends. I'm very practical in some ways, less so in others. 



nevermore said:


> You can think about how you use your Ti. Do you logically pick things apart just for the sake of it, or is it to aid you in advancing a practical agenda? An INTP will discuss the logic in something (or bite their tongue) if it is off, but not for any practical reason, just for getting the logic correct. Making sure the understanding is crystal clear, since to understand is our final goal. Ti dominance is also going to care more about systematizing facts and relating them to the principles they represent with intuition...sussing out the hidden law that INTP's subconsciously believe governs everything in the universe. Facts will always be valued for their relation to other facts and the hidden patterns that we delight in perceiving intuitively (Ne), which is ultimately only valued because these patterns betray principles or laws that give us understanding of the workings of the universe (Ti). (I use the term universe generally, not referring to physics or anything, though INTP's tend to be talented at that). This understanding gives us a feeling of empowerment. To intuit the systematic reason why...to discover (what precisely varies greatly)...is the final purpose of the INTP's mind. If you can relate to that, you are probably INTP.


I very much relate to all of this. I think my logically picking things apart is more for the sake of it rather than for achieving a practical agenda although I have done the latter.



nevermore said:


> I also relate to inferior aspiration. I'm positive I'm INTP, but my emotions occupy an almost sacred place in my psyche. In creative writing assignments in high school (to use your example) my issue was almost never originality, but rather a complete lack of understanding of character development.


I also relate to inferior aspiration but I can see myself aspiring to both Fe and Ne, which confuses things more. I have insecurities around both Fe and Ne. With Fe, I'm always worried about unintentionally making some social faux pas and I want to make sure I don't make an ass of myself socially. I'm not that confrontational but when I do see the need to confront someone, I'm always second guessing myself- was I being too angry? Was I overreacting? 

I also have insecurities around Ne. I strive to be ingenious but never feel satisfied with my own level of ingenuity. I definitely envy people who are strong in this. I go on the *NTP forums and I marvel at all the witty things they say and wish I could have come up with that. 



nevermore said:


> Anyway, I've always felt a bit in common with ISFJ's so it would surprise me if the reverse is true. What ever type you are, seeing ISFJ and INTP together shows you are definitely on the way to shedding a little more light on yourself!


In what ways do you see yourself similar to ISFJs? 



niss said:


> I don't know how long it has been since you lived at home, but my children had to move out for 2-3 years before they became secure in their type identity. While living at home it seemed as though their preferences aligned more closely with one or the other of their parents, depending on the child.


I'm in my thirties now. I've lived on my own since college. In my college years I did live with my parents in the summer but I have been totally on my own since 22. However, I live geographically close to my parents and my mother visits me a couple times a week.



goodgracesbadinfluence said:


> In the meantime, try this test:
> 
> Career Test
> 
> ...


I got INTJ on that test. 79% I, 86% N, 55% T, and 59% J. That pattern is common with alot of online tests. Strongest on I and N, with T/F and J/P going either way. I often get INTJ on tests but I know I can rule out INTJ. There's no way I'm dominant Ni. 



Verrsili said:


> Do you like knowledge for the sake of knowledge or knowledge in order to use it? (Si would search to the past and find this knowledge and use it)


Both but mostly knowledge for its own sake.



Lionheart said:


> I know that I tend to notice when something has changed from how it was in the past. I can be exhaustively thorough on things, making sure nothing is left out. I’m always spotting certain details like typos and smudges on paper. Yet in other ways I’m not so detail oriented. I don’t always have the best spatial awareness of objects. When navigating a new workplace, I’m not naturally good at paying attention to where all the objects in the room are located, especially if I rarely use them. Sometimes I actually have to take notes on where to find certain things, especially if there isn’t much logic to where its placed and the location seems rather arbitrary.
> 
> sounds tertiary Si to me :O
> Idk, it's really hard to say but all ur characteristics really remind me of my INTP friend who has a prty strong Si and Fe as well


Thanks for your input. Maybe you're right about the tertiary Si. I would expect dominant Si to be more acutely aware of some the details I tend to miss? I also have some anxiety around details and making sure I don't miss stuff. I don't know but would a dominant Si be less anxious about that kind of thing?


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

*Some additional thoughts*

I could very well be a feeling type who was encouraged to use T more. I remember as a child getting emotional over the dumbest things and my parents telling me to not cry, to not get so emotional. I remember as a child having poor emotional self-control. I'm not sure if this is due to being an F type or not. It could be inferior Fe or Aspergers. 

Another thing is that I learned to suppress my feelings alot. If I said I was hurt by something, I was led to believe that I shouldn't have been hurt, that I was being overly touchy. Throughout life there have been times where I've been hurt and let it go and maybe I shouldn't have because I do have some past hurts stewing inside of me and now its too late in some cases to confront others about it. Now when I've been hurt, I do try to confront others more about it and let them know. If I don't, they could hurt me again. 

One thing I've noticed though, that makes me doubt that I'm an Fe user is that sometimes I'll find that my own feelings (Fi) take precedence over what's socially appropriate. For example, I might be hurt about something, and when I finally confront someone about it, at that point, I'm angry and I'm too wrapped up in my own feelings to care so much about yours. Sometimes the way I handle such situations, isn't always the most socially appropriate. It seems like those who truly have strong Fe can confront others more gracefully, in a way that's more respectful of the people who have hurt them. If someone's been unkind to me, it's very difficult for me to want to be kind back. My instinct is to either avoid the person entirely or to let them know in no uncertain terms that they have crossed the line and it won't be tolerated. There isn't much middle ground. Obviously this approach doesn't work well in customer service!


I've tried hard not to be biased when taking online personality tests but guess what? I think I have been to some extent. Maybe I'm not as naturally objective or impartial as I'd like to think I am. I have a hard time swallowing some of those SJ descriptions. Kiersey in particular, makes them sound like boring people with a sheep mentality. Ugh, who wants that? I think it's partly why alot more N's become interested in MBTI. An N type takes a test and they read an insightful profile that makes them special and unique. An SJ type, not so much. 

Anyway, I know that there is no best or worst type but I can't help reading an ISFJ description and thinking to myself, who wants to be that type? The description makes it sound like ISFJs blindly follow customs and tradition, aren't particularly imaginative or creative, and spend their lives serving others and rather than doing what they want to do. Doesn't sound like much of a life to me. 

Yet I've been over to the ISFJ forum and I know most of the ISFJs on there aren't really like that. Some are very introspective and insightful. Especially @teddy564339 Some question authority and certain belief systems. Some have creative hobbies. Most do like helping others in some capacity but I don't think their whole lives revolve around that. Yet it's still difficult for me to unshake that initial impression I got from reading the ISFJ descriptions. 

I think better descriptions should be written by people who are actually ISFJs. The same goes for the other three SJ types as well as the SPs. 

Another thing, is that I need a moderate degree of structure when doing tasks. I hated those open-ended assignments where the teacher would say "write whatever you feel like." I don't want to be micromanaged but I do like having some clear expectations for what is considered excellent vs. merely passable. I hated turning in an assignment I thought was good and then unexpectedly finding that I overlooked something that I didn't know I needed because the teacher didn't make it explicit. 

I struggle with J/P in general. On tests I'll actually tend to score slightly in favor of J more of the time but I wonder if I'm just wanting to see myself as J in some circumstances. I like seeing myself as an organized and productive individual. I'm very organized with my belongings yet not so good with my time. It's very easy for me to waste a good part of the day on Internet forums. When I plan what I want to do for the day, I almost always list more things than can realistically get done. I will manage to make the deadlines on the essential things though. I hate the thought of having unfinished projects and feel good about having things settled and a difficult decision finally off my chest.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> I have a hard time determining my dominant function! I look back on my childhood and I seemed to have used alot of both! The same is true with the auxilary function. I use alot of Ne and Fe when I'm extraverting.


This proves a good point: namely, we use a lot our functions all the time, it just depends what takes precedence. I am rather conscious of when I use Fe myself, even if I'm not always the best at it.



> I don't think I would have too much trouble managing pure statistics and I am good at managing money. It puzzles me that there are people who have trouble balancing their checkbook.


As I mentioned, I don't really relate to that, but...



> As far as following detailed instructions goes, it really depends on the situation. I get easily overwhelmed when alot of information is thrown at me at once. Once I've mastered a complex procedure though, I'm good to go. What helps me is knowing how all the steps fit into a larger picture and why each step is necessary.


I very much relate to this. If they are logical, I'll at least tolerate them, if I will probably still try to find a way around them and prefer to improvise.



> (something I didn't exactly receive alot of in my schooling.) I think that's more typical of INTP thinking. As far as gauging what's practical goes, again that largely depends. I'm very practical in some ways, less so in others.


Which sorts of ways?



> I very much relate to all of this. I think my logically picking things apart is more for the sake of it rather than for achieving a practical agenda although I have done the latter.


That's a point for INTP.



> I also relate to inferior aspiration but I can see myself aspiring to both Fe and Ne, which confuses things more. I have insecurities around both Fe and Ne. With Fe, I'm always worried about unintentionally making some social faux pas and I want to make sure I don't make an ass of myself socially. I'm not that confrontational but when I do see the need to confront someone, I'm always second guessing myself- was I being too angry? Was I overreacting?
> 
> I also have insecurities around Ne. I strive to be ingenious but never feel satisfied with my own level of ingenuity. I definitely envy people who are strong in this. I go on the *NTP forums and I marvel at all the witty things they say and wish I could have come up with that.


A Ti/Si loop might explain it. Have you read about them? Do you feel you might have the symptoms of one? 



> In what ways do you see yourself similar to ISFJs?


I tend to be pretty respectful and believe in integrity. I have a fondness for old traditions (but only those that are harmless), and don't like saying things that offend people. I am very interested in family history and having a sense of roots and where I came from. I feel a certain sense of duty to people, if I am not always as good as I could be at keeping up with it. I also am very nostalgic and can easily be brought to tears remembering the times I shared with old friends or lovers in days long gone. 



> I also have some anxiety around details and making sure I don't miss stuff. I don't know but would a dominant Si be less anxious about that kind of thing?


Yes, because Si is by nature concerned that details will be missed...it's its driving motivation. My ISFJ grandfather used to check the locks and shake them ten times over before leaving the house just to make sure it was secure. But to confirm you'll need to ask Si-doms.

I have no time now but I'll respond to your new post later!


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## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

Just a small comment...




Dementia in Absentia said:


> I also think I tend to score as N because the tests are flawed and make N sound more intelligent than S, as if they are capable of higher level thinking and S types are not. It’s true that I’ve always scored high on IQ tests.


I agree, and I think I've had this problem myself. I'm definitely an N, but I think I score noticeably more strongly as an N than I should.

I've seen people take the test alone, then take the test with someone else and get very different results. Having someone who knows you well sit with you and talk about the questions, their meaning, and you as a person can really change your answers. I always recommend taking the test with someone who knows you (and MBTI as an added bonus) well.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

B-Con said:


> Just a small comment...
> 
> I've seen people take the test alone, then take the test with someone else and get very different results. Having someone who knows you well sit with you and talk about the questions, their meaning, and you as a person can really change your answers. I always recommend taking the test with someone who knows you (and MBTI as an added bonus) well.


I'm scared to do that. What if they think I'm not as strong in some trait that I see myself as being strong in?


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## Jorge (Aug 5, 2009)

Great post... I initially thought that it'd be a post of you clinging on to the idea of an INTP for some reason, but it turned out that I incredibly related to this. I also had problems thinking abstract as a kid, I still struggle to consider myself to be "creative", and funnily enough, I ALSO had an ISFJ mother. I can't be arsed to quote EVERY single aspect of what you said where a little light bulb shined upon my head, because quite frankly, that was a LOT of detail, and I'm afraid I just don't have the patience to do something as thorough, so here's my approach. 

First, clear your mind from the MBTI/Keirsey "knowledge", because these are two sources that confuse the living shit out of people when determining their type ("But... I'm not as soft as NF's... I can't be an INFJ!" >.<). I can understand a bit the way MBTI was developed (because it wasn't ALL THAT off), but Keirsey is just a jackass. NTs and SJs are more similar to each other than Keirsey makes it up to be, ESPECIALLY NTPs. 

I do not believe that cognitive functions are internally developed as if it was some sort of chain of events. You do not develop Ti, then develop Ne, then Si, and at the end, you might develop Fe, if your body and brain grow up that much. Rather, I believe that they're always inside of you, and at different times they might act up according to your vulnerability. In a more specific case to what you've been saying, I've always considered the dominant function to be the ego/self/I, and the tertiary function to be the little cricket behind your ear that provides a very loud recommendation to decisions/opinions, and one that you might take if the dominant function is weak or doesn't know what to do. It is not necessarily an immature or a shitty one, it is just an alternative. Obviously, immature tertiaries might not provide as accurate solutions, but as I said, it is not a function that will develop after your auxiliary.

In ENTPs, the tertiary Fe is sort of like a "Whenever you're being creative and shit, just remember that the larger your audience which is affected by it, the more satisfied you will feel". In ISTPs, the tertiary Ni sometimes can be like "Doesn't it just seem like something is a bit off? I mean yeah it's easy to think of it and shit but... I would think this twice as there is just SOMETHING, which I can't put my finger on, that is giving me a red light here..."

And the way I see it in INTPs is a lot like the way you just expressed it. Si was ALWAYS there giving you very strong input into what to do. Si was there to tell you "huhhh... this is not literal, I have no framework to base this upon... how about we read it up again and check if we miss a detail?" or a "Well... it's obvious you can't figure it out on your own, how about we just base this on what is there already and go along to something else? This decision goes a little bit over your head anyway". Ti-doms might be know to be sometimes more intellectual than other types, but without a reference/source for information, it will always depend on an irrational opinion to determine the best way to go. 

Now you might say "Oh but then how do I know it wasn't Ti being the cricket and not Si?"... and yeah, this is VERY hard to determine. If Ti backs down (especially under stress) and consistently relies on Si for decisions (funnily enough, more than likely based from Fe-opinions), then how is it different than a Si-dom? How can you tell them apart? Even if you feel like you have a healthy Ti, how are you different from an ISxJ who goes under some stress? This is where I think the inferior function kicks in. It is having to introspect deeply and think "What function still causes me the most trouble... is it Fe or is it Ne?" As a kid, I always hated Fe not because I couldn't understand it... in fact, I knew EXACTLY what it was about... I just didn't want to adjust myself to it. In the end, I was unhappy because the feeling rejected, the not being able to relate to people, just the LACK of sympathy that I received (mainly because I didn't give it) was what completely stressed me. It wasn't until I learned to budge in a little more to society values that most of my stress just started to go away...

And it really was the stupidest shit. For example, since I wore glasses since an early age, I was recommended to use contact glasses to "fit in", and instead, I challenged the idea going "My glasses are my eyes!! Why should I wear contact glasses to appeal to people better? I shouldn't have to do this!"... but once I saw that my word played a bigger role once adapting it to the social vocabulary demanded, I went "Hey... this is actually not that bad... and I'm using my Ti in much bigger things than the bs I was doing sticking to my guns."

This is all of the energy I can spare into this at the moment. My point of the post is that it is not odd at all for INTPs to look ISxJ-ish when Ti needs an external feed. It is ultimately the inferior function, the one who you have to own up as the source of a lot of your stress, who will help you MUCH more in determining your type.

And yes, superficially for now, consider the "auxiliary" function as your personal superhero . It goes way beyond it, but this is some initial ground on how to consider it.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

And I have now returned with my analysis of your post, which is basically me comparing what you've said to myself and what I know about INTPs. 

Part One

I definitely rely on past experience to guide me through new experiences. But if I know I'm going to be in a new situation, I try to find out as much information about it as possible if I haven't actually experienced something similar. I kind of freak out in certain new situations, mostly if it's a situation where I'm afraid I'm going to mess something up, but if I can ask a friend who has experienced it a bunch of questions I can significantly reduce that anxiety. 

I'm not sure if that's Si. I'm horrible at the cognitive functions. 

I'm not exactly perceptive of things, but I usually spot typos on papers because I tend to be better with grammar than a lot of my peers (and college is usually why I'm reading something that would be prone to typos in the first place). And I'm also really bad with like... remembering which buildings used to be where. Like in my city, there is a gas station that they built maybe four years ago. A friend looked up the image online, and it was out-of-date and showed a different gas station. I don't remember that gas station being there... I can't even picture it. 

According to tests, my Si is stronger than my Se. I also have actually given up on a cognitive functions test because Se was the first section and I didn't even understand what the questions were asking haha.

Taking a tried-and-true concept and tweaking it to make it better is, to my knowledge, an iNtuitive trait. And in my opinion, creativity doesn't have anything to do with N vs. S. I'm a creative person, but most of my friends are creative too and since iNtuitiors are rare-ish I highly doubt all my creative friends are iNtuitors. And there is nothing wrong with being a Sensor. It does not mean you are a conventional, boring person. It just means that you are more concrete and you take in information using your five senses... I guess. 

Perhaps you should read this 

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/20257-you-know-youre-sensor-when.html

And see if you can relate. 

I also don't think comparing yourself to how you were as a young child will help. I was fourteen when I was first introduced to MBTI. The very first test I ever took tested me as INTP, although it was a blogthings test haha. It's normal for younger children to have difficulty with abstract thinking. 

I hate plans being changed too, especially when I have no control over them. And INTPs aren't all easygoing/laid-back all the time. We just aren't as in touch with our emotions as most other types, and we don't want to deal with the worry and the stress so we avoid it until it seeps out of us (or at least I do). It's so much easier to be laid-back than to worry and lose sleep over something, and I can't tell I'm stressed out until I start showing physical symptoms. And like... yeah, guidelines for assignments tend to really piss me off, but I don't mind submitting them on time because there is a reason for it. I cared about getting gold stars too, but like my whole day wasn't ruined if I didn't get one. 

The thing with INTPs... or at least from what I've seen... is that we don't mind complying as long as there is a good reason. Why should we submit it by the deadline? Because it makes everything easier on the teacher, because it teaches us responsibility, because we're going to get another assignment later and we don't want to be bogged down with work, etc. 

Part Two

My mum is an ISFJ too. 

My INTP-ness was definitely not encouraged... but I honestly don't think I was an INTP when I was a kid... or at least not a young young kid. I think I was an ENTP or an ENTJ as a young child, but whatever. All those "do's and don'ts" you listed sounds like my parents' attitudes on raising me as well. And I mean when you're in the single-digit age, you tend to do what they tell you. And I never felt like I could talk to my parents about anything, and I was always afraid they'd yell at me or take away priviledges if I ever tried to change or bargain with their rules. I didn't really get over this until I was about 12 or 13, maybe even later. 

INTP does not equal insensitive or unemotional. Things can hurt us like hell too. We just don't like to show it to people and we usually try to rationalise our way out of it. T vs. F isn't about emotion or lack thereof-- it's about how you approach life, make decisions and deal with situations. For example, there is a decent-sized chance that I'm going to be breaking up with my boyfriend of two years. I'm a T and he is an F. I am looking at all the logical reasons why it will and will not work, and it isn't really affecting my other activities. I can discuss it with people without getting super upset. He is looking at the logic too, but he has seemed more depressed and less interested in hobbies since we've had this issue. 

Perhaps you should take some time to sit down with the test and figure out what it is really asking and just make yourself answer the test honestly. Again, there is nothing wrong with being an SFJ. It doesn't mean you're boring, stupid or uncreative. I don't get all bent out of shape if people don't like me though. I roll my eyes and figure it's for some stupid reason anyway. I'm self-conscious too, but this is due to overall insecurity and not because of type. 

I don't really have a strong need for harmony... but ever since tenth grade I've had to consistently deal with being friends with people who just don't like each other. All I care about is not being subjected to people who piss me off. But if someone gives off a bad vibe, I don't want to be around them for extended periods of time. I also don't care how people interact with each other, as long as they are not blatantly offensive. Sometimes I think to myself, "They shouldn't have said that" but it's not like I have specific ideas about how people should act. My mum though, I would say she definitely does. My mum also puts the needs of others ahead of her own, and tends to minimise her problems, or asks people who haven't already asked her for help about her own problems. INTPs also don't generally have that sense of "duty" that you've described in this section of your post. 

Although, if I had the knowledge to help a customer or someone, I probably would even if it weren't my job, unless it was difficult and/or inconvenient or took away from what my actual job was. 

I'm usually extremely indifferent to what we do in a social situation and I will only speak up if it's something I really hate. Like if all my friends wanted to go to some restaurant that I didn't like, I would say something. But again, my reason for not speaking up is indifference, not trying to make sure everyone is happy. 

I'm the same way with ideas. I don't like my ideas to be rejected even though I know it's not personal. I also don't like to bother people and I don't like to be pushy, mostly because I despise when other people try to push their crap onto me. 

Again... I know very little about functions. I can't say anything when it comes to the function descriptions haha. 

My mum does naturally enjoy helping others and she does truly care about her causes. She works at a daycare, she volunteers a lot at her church, she is a vegetarian... stuff like that. The help she gives others is not for her personal fulfillment. For me, it can go both ways. If I like you, I'll help you, and if it's a cause I care about, I'll help you. I'm not big on volunteer work though, unless it's clear it is truly needed. I also am not likely to volunteer in a place that will make me anxious, like a hospital or a nursing home. 

I forgive but don't forget, but it's more of like a mental note type thing than an actual feeling thing. 

My mum isn't completely closed off to new ideas, as long as she actually sees how they will help everyone. She likes new experiences too, but she does prefer to stick to what she knows.


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## sts06 (Aug 12, 2010)

goodgracesbadinfluence said:


> Perhaps you should read this
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/20257-you-know-youre-sensor-when.html
> 
> And see if you can relate.


I wouldn't rely on this, though. I can't relate to much in that thread at all (nor in the intuitive one which always confuses me. Shouldn't I be able to relate to one or the other?) However, despite not relating to much in there I am 99% certain I'm a sensor. I'd say it would be better to focus on the functions and try to figure out which ones you prefer using in which order. After all we ISFJs share all the INTP functions so it's not so weird that you would feel an affinity with both types, especially if you've managed to 'beef up' your weaker functions.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

sts06 said:


> I wouldn't rely on this, though. I can't relate to much in that thread at all (nor in the intuitive one which always confuses me. Shouldn't I be able to relate to one or the other?) However, despite not relating to much in there I am 99% certain I'm a sensor. I'd say it would be better to focus on the functions and try to figure out which ones you prefer using in which order. After all we ISFJs share all the INTP functions so it's not so weird that you would feel an affinity with both types, especially if you've managed to 'beef up' your weaker functions.


 
Yeah, I think alot of the stuff in the "you might be a sensor if" and "you might be an intuitive if" threads almost sounds like a cariacture. You're probably not going to relate to alot of that stuff unless you are extreme in your preference.


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## Jorge (Aug 5, 2009)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INTUITOR OR A SENSOR!

For fucks sakes... Everybody has a fucking N function and a S function. INTPs originally rely more on a sensing function than an intuitive one...

This is exactly the bs I recommend you to avoid. I think you're up to the point where cognitive functions are going to help you in a MUCH, MUUUCH deeper way than the MBTI approach. MBTI is your starting point, but type is determined at a much more deeper level than "Uh! Do you like to think or feel!?" >.<


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

Jorge said:


> INTPs originally rely more on a sensing function than an intuitive one...


Explain? 

I agree that the words "intuitor" and "sensor" are misleading though. Everyone uses both, it's just what we prefer.


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## IonOfAeons (Dec 2, 2010)

I know this isn't going to help you with working out your type or anything, but your posts are incredibly emotionally charged, it's emanating right off the page. I know I don't know you or anything, but I still feel a responsibility to say 'don't beat yourself up over this' because it really seems to be bothering you not being sure.

You value creativity and you're an intelligent person, neither definitively shows your type, but they say a lot about you and they matter a lot, remember those things when you feel down on yourself, at least you haven't let go of those ideals.

Sorry that this isn't a helpful post, it just reminded me how seriously we can take MBTI sometimes, don't let analyzing yourself change how you are. I'm not saying that's what's happening or anything, just to be careful you don't let it eat into you when it shouldn't.

On the actual subject, there's so much focus on 'the magic of intuition' that people forget how much our knowledge plays into our intelligence. It's pure madness to try and do things a completely different way (the supposed intuitive way) every time because there are some methods that just work better than others, it doesn't make you a sensor to realize this and to use some of your knowledge. Intuition is far more complex than that and it mixes in quite deeply with sensing, so I don't believe any of what you described is a reason to think you can't be an INTP, because you most certainly can.


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## erasinglines (Sep 1, 2010)

I apologize for such a short reply after such a detailed and rich description, but I had a short preliminary question before I started thinking about the rest of the descriptions you've patiently given us. I just wanted to bring the focus back out for a little bit and double check something...

Is there any reason why INTP and ISFJ are the main focuses? I mean, I can understand that it might be because you feel that some form of Ti Fe Si Ne are generally your main functions*. But just for the purpose of asking, why not NF or SP?


*Edit: And that you generally prefer introversion over extraversion.


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

Okay, what type do you more often test as when you take the real MBTI? Try not to overthink your type. Myers-Briggs typology is just a theory.

https://www.mbticomplete.com/en/index.aspx?gclid=CKzE4MzI_qgCFcZM4AodEUONRg


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## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> I'm scared to do that. What if they think I'm not as strong in some trait that I see myself as being strong in?


Then one of you is wrong. And if it's you, then is the opposite trait really a bad thing? If you aren't as strong in a trait as you thought you were, that could be an encouragement to further develop it -- unless you think ignorance is bliss, which as a Ti you are unlikely to think.


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## Blazen2hot (May 14, 2011)

Perhapz u were conditioned to act ISFJ but is either INFP/INFJ nd waz drilled 2 think more dan feel. I waz 1nce confuzd 'bout my type, i suggest doing d JUNG personality test by givin d opposite ans. U will get yr shadow type which is d opposite of yr real type.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

B-Con said:


> Then one of you is wrong. And if it's you, then is the opposite trait really a bad thing? If you aren't as strong in a trait as you thought you were, that could be an encouragement to further develop it -- unless you think ignorance is bliss, which as a Ti you are unlikely to think.


This is another reason for my type confusion, particularly on the T/F axis. In general I seek out the truth about things, but when it comes to deeply personal things- I'm not always so welcoming of the truth if it has the potential to be psychologically painful to me. It's far easier for me to want to seek out the truth about things that don't affect me personally- like the secrets of the universe. 

Once I discover a personal truth about myself, I tend to dwell upon it and overly obsess about it, which I don't always like.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

I wonder about the affect of enneagram on type.
An ISFJ who is a 5 may spend more time using their inferior Ti/Ne to search for new ideas and develop theories.
An INTP who is a 9 may spend more time using their inferior Si/Fe.. since they want to avoid conflict and want harmony and peace.
These are just guesses as I'm not really familiar with the situation of E5 ISFJs or E9 INTPs but you write a lot about wanting harmony that I wonder if 9 might be your core type instead of 5 or if not, how being a 5 and ISFJ work out.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

username said:


> Okay, what type do you more often test as when you take the real MBTI? Try not to overthink your type. Myers-Briggs typology is just a theory.
> 
> https://www.mbticomplete.com/en/index.aspx?gclid=CKzE4MzI_qgCFcZM4AodEUONRg


The official MBTI scores me as a solid INTP. Online tests, results are variable. I almost always get some INxx type, with INTJ being the most common. I know that I'm not an INTJ though. Cognitive functions are all wrong. Many of the online tests aren't very good, so I consider them as entertainment, not to be taken seriously. Even the official MBTI, while far more reliable than most online tests, still has an error rate about about 25%



pc3000 said:


> I wonder about the affect of enneagram on type.
> An ISFJ who is a 5 may spend more time using their inferior Ti/Ne to search for new ideas and develop theories.
> An INTP who is a 9 may spend more time using their inferior Si/Fe.. since they want to avoid conflict and want harmony and peace.
> These are just guesses as I'm not really familiar with the situation of E5 ISFJs or E9 INTPs but you write a lot about wanting harmony that I wonder if 9 might be your core type instead of 5 or if not, how being a 5 and ISFJ work out.


I seem equally like the ISFJ-ish 5 and the INTP-ish 9.


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## Ti Dominant (Sep 25, 2010)

@Dementia in Absentia

I would want to know your functions, but I agree with Nevermore that you do come off more structured than most INTP's.


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> *The* *official MBTI scores me as a* *solid INTP*. Online tests, results are variable. I almost always get some INxx type, with INTJ being the most common. I know that I'm not an INTJ though. Cognitive functions are all wrong. Many of the online tests aren't very good, so I consider them as entertainment, not to be taken seriously. Even the official MBTI, while far more reliable than most online tests, still has an error rate about about 25%


You seem very INTP to me. I would lean toward trusting the results of the official MBTI. 

INTP's are driven to make sense of the world and root out inconsistencies and contradictions (the way you're going about this, to me, suggests INTP), but we should keep in mind that Myers-Briggs/Jung typology is based on a shaky psychological theory, not empirical scientific knowledge.


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## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

Dementia in Absentia said:


> This is another reason for my type confusion, particularly on the T/F axis. In general I seek out the truth about things, but when it comes to deeply personal things- I'm not always so welcoming of the truth if it has the potential to be psychologically painful to me. It's far easier for me to want to seek out the truth about things that don't affect me personally- like the secrets of the universe.
> 
> Once I discover a personal truth about myself, I tend to dwell upon it and overly obsess about it, which I don't always like.


T searches for objective truth. F searches for subjective (eg, personal) truth. T dislikes subjects that don't have (or appear to not have) objective truth. F dislikes subjects that are (or appear to be) completely impersonal.

I wouldn't focus on how you react to the two as much as which of the two you prefer to work with, if given a choice. You sound like you prefer the objective to the subjective. It could be that you are a T who is just uncomfortable with personal feelings. You wouldn't be the first.

There are a million little personality quirks and hiccups that MBTI doesn't even pretend to account for. Don't let those distract you -- focus on the couple biggest aspects that MBTI does try to categorize/explain.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

B-Con said:


> T searches for objective truth. F searches for subjective (eg, personal) truth. T dislikes subjects that don't have (or appear to not have) objective truth. F dislikes subjects that are (or appear to be) completely impersonal.


Dunno...I can't stand subjects that are completely impersonal. Too much fluffiness and not enough theory turns me off too, but I can't sustain interest in anything that doesn't relate back to the human experience. I'm not an F though; I am very aware of my own mindset, know my function order and it's Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. Focusing on subjects isn't the best way to type people; this is one area where Keirsey had it wrong bigtime.


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## B-Con (Dec 24, 2010)

nevermore said:


> Dunno...I can't stand subjects that are completely impersonal. Too much fluffiness and not enough theory turns me off too, but I can't sustain interest in anything that doesn't relate back to the human experience.


That's not relevant to T vs F, though. When I say "personal" in my previous post, I mean "subjective". I'm talking about subjective morals, values, social codes, even desires and goals. T focuses on things that are the same in every culture and religion, F focuses on what is specific to each culture and religion. Plenty of Ts want to do things that they think have "practical" value, but the issue is not practicality vs theory.

A subject can relate to you personally and still have room for objectivity. In fact, many situations have both objective components and subjective components -- which type you prefer suggests which type you are more likely to focus on in a given situation.

For example, consider an extreme Te and Fe approaching a (completely, 100% made-up) problem of how a county wants to spend its money: on a sports arena or a performing arts center.

Te may look at it and say that the sports arena will generate by far more money for the county in the long-run. Objectively, he is sure that one of the goals in spending money is to ensure that it is invested in a way that brings back a healthy ROI. (Perhaps our Te is an ENTJ.) Given the goal of maximizing ROI, he is sure that the sports arena is the way to go. He doesn't even like sports, but he knows how to best accomplish the goal of making money. He realizes that some people would enjoy the performing arts center and he does not dismiss their desires, but he doesn't think the cost of the center is equivalent to the benefit derived from it. "Perhaps we will do this in the future if the county's BAs per capita rises", he thinks. He supports the sports arena.

Fe (perhaps an ESFJ) looks at the situation and realizes that the theater would be built in their own town, thus drawing in more business to the local shops. While this wouldn't have a particularly significant economic impact on the county as a whole, the Fe has many friends who would personally benefit significantly for this. The Fe doesn't care to use the performing arts center, but their city would benefit, and the Fe values the well-being of their immediate community. Fe thinks that the overall cost-benefit of the center is probably a little under breaking even (same assessment as the Te), but on the other hand it would really help that one struggling part of town, especially the Fe's friends. Fe supports the performing arts center.

Two completely different approaches, both flirting with the rational function (T/F) that is their inferior, but making decisions based on their dominant function. The situation is not very abstract, but it doesn't strongly affect the life of the subject. 

Theorem: If you are a T you will prefer to focus on the objective facts in a situation. Likewise, if you are an F you will prefer to focus on the subjective facts in a situation.

Practical application: This is one way in which politics gets screwed up by voters. Many people (even Ts, sadly) vote for what benefits them the most. Thus the largest group wins. You'd think that at the highest levels of government the best of the best would have similar outlooks and balanced views, but alas we have polar opposites put in power by 51% majority votes in varying states and counties.


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## username (Apr 6, 2010)

I forgot to mention my own experience with questioning my type. I consistently test borderline T/F; in terms of cognitive functions, this doesn't make much sense to me. I've tried searching for a satisfactory explanation, but nothing I have found has been able to put my mind at ease. I've looked at it functionally, and, still, nothing. The INFP description does not fit me, and the INTP description does not fit me. My personality seems to be a blend of the two types. I consistently test with a slight preference for thinking, so I consider myself to be INTP. It took me a full year to reach that conclusion. You could be in a similar situation. Your personality could be a blend of the ISFJ and INTP types, but if you consistently test as INTP, then you could technically be considered INTP. But really, in the end, you are the only person to decide which type fits you best.


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## nevermore (Oct 1, 2010)

B-Con said:


> That's not relevant to T vs F, though. When I say "personal" in my previous post, I mean "subjective". I'm talking about subjective morals, values, social codes, even desires and goals. T focuses on things that are the same in every culture and religion, F focuses on what is specific to each culture and religion. Plenty of Ts want to do things that they think have "practical" value, but the issue is not practicality vs theory.
> 
> A subject can relate to you personally and still have room for objectivity. In fact, many situations have both objective components and subjective components -- which type you prefer suggests which type you are more likely to focus on in a given situation.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, I know. I thought you meant "fields" when you meant "subjects". Since Kiersey made that mistake I wasn't quote sure what you meant, but now you've clarified yeah you're right that's a good description. "Subjective" and "objective" have been overused and could be confusing to most people, however, so I avoid their use (to me, subjective means "what it means to me", ie. the subject).


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## Epimer (Mar 21, 2011)

username said:


> I forgot to mention my own experience with questioning my type. I consistently test borderline T/F; in terms of cognitive functions, this doesn't make much sense to me. I've tried searching for a satisfactory explanation, but nothing I have found has been able to put my mind at ease. I've looked at it functionally, and, still, nothing. The INFP description does not fit me, and the INTP description does not fit me. My personality seems to be a blend of the two types. I consistently test with a slight preference for thinking, so I consider myself to be INTP. It took me a full year to reach that conclusion. You could be in a similar situation. Your personality could be a blend of the ISFJ and INTP types, but if you consistently test as INTP, then you could technically be considered INTP. But really, in the end, you are the only person to decide which type fits you best.


@username -- I was thanks-stalking you...

... but I am sort of in the same boat as you.

My T and P are often *very* weak.

Even though I am a very good thinker in my work, I am much more F and J in nature too.


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## Epimer (Mar 21, 2011)

(@username -- I am trying to thanks stalk you but I keep getting distracted by the threads you post in! You have a good taste in prose-based interwebz content my dear!)


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## Blazen2hot (May 14, 2011)

Sometimes, i often wonda if i feel more dan tink or viceversa... Perhapz itz d T/P bordeline datz confuzin...


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