# Fi, Ti, and gender issues



## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I know three ENFPs who are a bit feminist...this might be more common in enneagram 6 Fi users, perhaps? I suspect that most of these ENFPs are enneagram 6. Interestingly enough, I know an ENFJ who's very anti-feminist...and anti-any social cause, really (she's rather cynical). I think some Fe users tend to be less passionate about social issues that really "hit home," while those that do for Fi users tend to make them pretty unwavering, especially Fi/Si users, like INFPs. The NFPs (and even SFPs) tend to comprise more of the stalwart environmentalists I know than the NFJs (or SFJs). I know an INFJ who tried to sort of "live" by a certain value system for a day, and it didn't last long before she just couldn't take it any more. I think Fe in NFJ types makes them more like activists, but if they can't act, standing for the cause feels a bit futile to them, since Fe is more about social action than personal values (they're also Se users, so action will be rather important to them over causes, per se). I've even found ESFPs over ESFJs to be more obsessed with social causes, like "project bundle-up" or whatnot. The Fe types seem pickier about this stuff than the Fi types I know, anyhow, even down to the T types.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

The ISFJs I know are among the least concerned F types I've ever met with much of anything that resembles a social cause. They're usually among the most pragmatic and non-idealistic F types I come across, to the point that they can almost be mistaken for INTPs at first, even though they are supposed to be higher Fe users. Only one out of the many I know has any noticeable emotional investment in social causes. It seems to me that Ti is a a lot less idealistic than Fi, based on even the Fe users I know (since they also use Ti). Most of the INTPs I know don't even get the point of standing up for causes, lol.


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## Senter (Nov 21, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> The ISFJs I know are among the least concerned F types I've ever met with much of anything that resembles a social cause. They're usually among the most pragmatic and non-idealistic F types I come across, to the point that they can almost be mistaken for INTPs at first, even though they are supposed to be Fe users. Only one out of the many I know has any noticeable emotional investment in social causes. It seems to me that Ti is a a lot less idealistic than Fi, based on even the Fe users I know (since they also use Ti).


Agreed. My INFJ friend is certainly not idealistic in the sense that I am or that I am familiar with at least. And yes definitely with ISFJs I think they are certainly not idealistic. To be honest I feel as if idealism may be more centered around N as opposed to F. Because ideals are possibilities of the future which is directly concerned with N but also because of just general observation.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I think Fi seems to play a bigger role in being idealistic than Fe (I can admit to being quite idealistic, and all of the Ti users in my family think it's a bit ridiculous, being my INTP twin and my ISFJ mom - my twin always lectures me on how technically unlikely my idealism is, like, she can't wrap her mind around it, while my mom tends to be a bit surprised by it, and tries to give me a practical Si perspective on it, thinking that will be "helpful.") I think N contributes to this greatly as well.


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## Senter (Nov 21, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I think Fi seems to play a bigger role in being idealistic than Fe (I can admit to being quite idealistic, and all of the Ti users in my family think it's a bit ridiculous, being my INTP twin and my ISFJ mom - my twin always lectures me on how technically unlikely my idealism is, like, she can't wrap her mind around it, while my mom tends to be a bit surprised by it, and tries to give me a practical Si perspective on it, thinking that will be "helpful.") I think N contributes to this greatly as well.



I could see Fi playing a bigger role than Fe for sure. But I think that this may be a bit biased since my idea of ideals are mine because I have Fi and therefore may not understand or conceptualize ideals the same way an Fe user may.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

1) Just because a person is not a feminist does not make them a "masculinist."

2) Just because a person is a feminist does not mean that they believe women are superior, or are better than men.

3) People often have opinions based on their own life experience. For example, I am from the South, so I am VERY CLEAR on why feminism is still necessary. Man on woman domestic violence and spousal rape are still more common there than they may be in places like upper middle class San Francisco. On the other hand, someone who grew up in a very sheltered environment where people were treated with equal respect and power may be ignorant as to why feminism exists at all. However, these people are misguided: people who have no idea why *equality* feminism is still necessary are kind of like rich white people who don't understand why we can't "go beyond race." It's because they think if it doesn't affect them, it doesn't affect anyone, which is absurd. Then you have those strongly masculinist men who are reactionary toward feminism, and in their case it's often because they have some kind of personal issue with women from their life experience. Gender neutral is a nice idea, but it has nothing to do with what men and women are dealing with every day here in the real world.

4) I am a feminist because I believe in equality, not because I believe women are better than men, and extremist feminists annoy me just as much as they bother some non-feminists. I feel that they give feminism a bad name, and it causes women who want equality to distance themselves from the word "feminism." 

5) Nope, haven't really noticed the difference between Fi and Ti. I know an INTP _male _who is a staunch feminist, and know of an INTJ who is an absurd masculinist.

6) The observation that Ti plays devil's advocate and that Fi people attach deep personal passion to their beliefs is apt, though, and you're on to something with that.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Senter said:


> Agreed. My INFJ friend is certainly not idealistic in the sense that I am or that I am familiar with at least. And yes definitely with ISFJs I think they are certainly not idealistic. To be honest I feel as if idealism may be more centered around N as opposed to F. Because ideals are possibilities of the future which is directly concerned with N but also because of just general observation.


I think it's Fi. I think that's why ISFPs are supposed so "NF-like" and why ISTJs can have a very idealistic way that they want the world to be because of their Si/Fi. I know an ISTJ who has a very strong inner ENFP, like he causes trouble and makes messes when he believes rules are structurally unfair on forums. This is not something people expect ISTJs to do IRL, but I have no idea why not, because ISTJs are very often lobbying for SOMETHING or trying to maintain social control in a moral sense, if you just look at Republicans on television, I'm sure you'll see plenty of idealistic ISTJs who will fight tooth and nail for things to socially/morally remain the way they *idealistically* believe it should be...and yes, it's idealistic, because some of their beliefs don't seem to have much to do with present reality in society.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I know three ENFPs who are a bit feminist...this might be more common in enneagram 6 Fi users, perhaps? I suspect that most of these ENFPs are enneagram 6. Interestingly enough, I know an ENFJ who's very anti-feminist...and anti-any social cause, really (she's rather cynical). I think some Fe users tend to be less passionate about social issues that really "hit home," while those that do for Fi users tend to make them pretty unwavering, especially Fi/Si users, like INFPs. The NFPs (and even SFPs) tend to comprise more of the stalwart environmentalists I know than the NFJs (or SFJs). I know an INFJ who tried to sort of "live" by a certain value system for a day, and it didn't last long before she just couldn't take it any more. I think Fe in NFJ types makes them more like activists, but if they can't act, standing for the cause feels a bit futile to them, since Fe is more about social action than personal values (they're also Se users, so action will be rather important to them over causes, per se). I've even found ESFPs over ESFJs to be more obsessed with social causes, like "project bundle-up" or whatnot. The Fe types seem pickier about this stuff than the Fi types I know, anyhow, even down to the T types.


Even an ISTJ can be an environmentalist, even if he hates people, hates politics, and doesn't like "activism" he still may feel a strong inner Fi moral prompting to want to douse people in gasoline, set them on fire, and push them down the stairs if they hurt animals or don't do things to prevent harm to animals.

And that's so much what Fi is like: it's such a strong overwhelming feeling of KNOWING something is "right" or "wrong" that it causes people to pretty much live for it, or to be unable to not speak up or do something about it.

I think FJs are good at keeping organizations like that going, though, like they appeal to people in a more level, less extremist way perhaps than Fi types, in a more diplomatic way, and an ESFJ from California might be more likely to be an environmentalist than an ESFJ from Texas because of the influence of prevailing social norms for morality in their respective homes and communities. 

I have noticed some NFJs just totally being anti any extreme social cause, or anti politics because they don't want to "take sides" or something - they've first of all got Fe wanting them to play fair, and Ni wanting them to look at things from different angles, I guess. BUT an NFJ on a mission "for the group" is another story entirely.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

Torai said:


> Advocacy is not solely the realm of Fe. Fi-Ne users actually can become the biggest social advocates due to the motivation to shape and modify the playground of the external world(Ne) through the reflection of one's own subjective morality(Fi).


I agree with this. I've seen Joan Baez and Dr. Suess typed as ENFPs, and both were activists/advocates of certain values in their own rights. I consider myself to be a feminist, but only as a subset or by default because I am a humanist. There are also the XNFJs' (Ghandi, MLK Jr.?) with Fe-Ni or Ni-Fe, that have become activists for causes. I have met at least several INFJs who advocate for women. Not so many SF's though, so it's not Fe alone. I understand Ne-Fi pretty well, so just curious how the Fe-Ni interaction works into becoming an activist? 

As for @Van s remark: "Maybe it's actually a Fe thing: by playing devil's advocate, you try to get people to come around to your Ti way of thinking. How this compares to Fi, I don't know."

I think Fi is often times just pure conviction - it would be nice to bring people around to your side, but it's more out of feeling that you just _know_ you are right than suspicion of other people. You can posit a pretty accurate guess as to how an individual(s) might be affected by whatever action (or you know how you have been or might be affected) and from there you see the possibility of others being affected in that same way.


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## TiNeSi (Jan 10, 2011)

Anecdotal but: I'm Ti dom, have been a feminist since childhood. I remember getting in huge arguments with my ISFP (just my guess, but she's definitely a Fi user) friend over feminist issues, notably because she resented having a female boss and would rather have a male boss. My confirmed ENFP friend will get annoyed at sexist stuff, but then will say something pretty sexist herself.
I'm just saying.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> _The sad thing is when this manifests itself as bad inferior usage. They become the very thing that they try so hard to suppress. I guess that's like everyone's inferior functions._


Bad inferior usage is when you use the inferior out of stress. The inferior function, not being mature, usually backfires on you.

For example, an Si dominant will badly use an inferior form of Ne when they completely crack and go into a fit of abrupt change and rearranges their world in a way which is incredibly unsafe and destructive to their stability, due to a fear of instability and pointless self-fulfilling prophecy.

An Ne dominant would use Si badly when they lose all of their excitement and creative energy due to fear of being unable to change the world around them. It instills in them a self-fulfilling prophecy, and makes them completely uninspired to make any sort of change.

An Fi dominant would use Te badly when they use it to control others, because they feel that they are infringing on their right to a personal identity. 

An Ni dominant is probably the most famous example. They would use Se badly in a fit of hedonism or rage. In a few instances, I have had a struggle with my natural Se, because I had these outlandish urges to do things that most people would consider crazy. Ni would actually paint a vivid scenario of me doing the action. (Killing someone, having sex with someone there and then, crazy shit like that...)


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Torai said:


> Bad inferior usage is when you use the inferior out of stress. The inferior function, not being mature, usually backfires on you.
> 
> For example, an Si dominant will badly use an inferior form of Ne when they completely crack and go into a fit of abrupt change and rearranges their world in a way which is incredibly unsafe and destructive to their stability, due to a fear of instability and pointless self-fulfilling prophecy.


Hey, I somewhat recently witnessed this. Ugh.



> An Fi dominant would use Te badly when they use it to control others, because they feel that they are infringing on their right to a personal identity.


Yes. I know this feeling alarmingly well. 



> An Ni dominant is probably the most famous example. They would use Se badly in a fit of hedonism or rage. In a few instances, I have had a struggle with my natural Se, because I had these outlandish urges to do things that most people would consider crazy. Ni would actually paint a vivid scenario of me doing the action. (Killing someone, having sex with someone there and then, crazy shit like that...)


And it's because you have Se inferior that you even perceive "having someone there then" as "crazy." LOL. IMO, that's not crazy.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

fourtines said:


> And it's because you have Se inferior that you even perceive "having someone there then" as "crazy." LOL. IMO, that's not crazy.


Depends on the situation... I'm talking about hedonistic thoughts at highly inappropriate times, like where an audience would be watching, also with inappropriate people, like no one you should be attracted to... I can picture the sensations, the rush, and the intensity. And it's fucking intoxicating. My mind has a way of obscuring the fine line between temptation and self-control... I think I would be pretty great at writing erotic novels if I had any sort of sexual experience. :\

Holy shit, I derailed this thread. It's my thread, so fuck it.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I've seen inferior Ne manifest in ISFJs pretty hilariously at times, like, my mom will first impart practical advice to me on why I should take a precaution, then, I'll question why, and sometimes, her reasons are so unexpectedly out-of-synch with the practical and routine advice she normally gives that I think she's pulling my leg (like, once, one of her responses was something about potential alien invasions, and she was rather serious about it when I started laughing - she responded with "You never know..."). It fits with the Form of the Inferior - ISJs "out of character" moments pretty well.


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## myexplodingcat (Feb 6, 2011)

Torai said:


> Is it just my perceptions, or do Fi users seem to be more likely to be advocates of feminism, and Ti users advocates of masculism? I ask because I feel I've seen this trend in a lot of issues. I know skycloud is a feminist, but a heck of a lot of NTP's I've seen tend to lean against feminism, and I'd like to figure out why in terms of cognitive functions.
> 
> The last thing I want is arguments that question the validity here, so if you have a soapbox, please kindly cram it. That goes for both sides. I swear, all the conflict makes me so angry, I sometimes want to live in a communist dictatorship where no one has any rights at all to free speech just to stop hearing a bunch of idiots with an "us" vs "them" mentality.
> 
> ...


INTPs just don't seem to see any logical reason for male vs. female roles or inequality. I've never noticed any tendency towards anything like that. Maybe you're sensing the fact that most INTPs are guys?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I've seen inferior Ne manifest in ISFJs pretty hilariously at times, like, my mom will first impart practical advice to me on why I should take a precaution, then, I'll question why, and sometimes, her reasons are so unexpectedly out-of-synch with the practical and routine advice she normally gives that I think she's pulling my leg (like, once, one of her responses was something about potential alien invasions, and she was rather serious about it when I started laughing - she responded with "You never know..."). It fits with the Form of the Inferior - ISJs "out of character" moments pretty well.


It can be kind of awesome when an ISJ is in an Ne mood. 

I don't like the downside to it, though, like an aux/inf loop can make a normally dependable and reliable ISJ suddenly into a person you don't recognize, and not always in a "playful" or cute way, but in a rather upsetting way.

I think ISJ spikes of inferior Ne can sometimes be as shocking or off-putting as an IFPs spikes of inferior Te. @Torai touched on that when they'll suddenly make rapid changes that seem out of whack, et al.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Ti seeks absolute equality, many self proclaimed feminists aren't feminists, but almost fascists on a crusade. Well, they're the one's you see anyway, because they stand out. Same goes for "masculinists" I s'pose, given that they're often seen as the get back in the kitchen type.

That's an issue with people, though, not being able to see the cause they supposedly 'fight' for.

Extremism only creates extremism as counter reaction, although it should be evident that extremism can't win against extremism, since if you use your enemy's tools to fight your enemy you're no better than merely show the same mental incapability.


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## retroscenery (Sep 29, 2011)

Well I haven't the time to read what everyone has said and I'm inexperienced. But what the hell.

I've noticed that a lot of feminists seem to be Fi users, so you may be onto something. However, I wouldn't really go into the Ti side of this. I can see how feminism really is very suited to the values of an Fi dom and not an Fe dom. Let's elaborate on that.

I identify as a feminist, but I'm an Fe user (just to let you know, my explanation of feminism is more of an example of how I think it applies to my theory, so I hope the op won't get upset) and I have to admit, I've really reworked a lot of feminism principles to fit into my own. I think the reason why you see so many Fi feminists is because well, it's questioning the status quo. It's questioning roles that have socially put people together. I can't see many Fe dominants not shaving and yelling at men because they opened the door for them or getting upset at people refering to God as a male. Many of the things that feminists, especially radical feminists, stand for go against the social norm. Now I wouldn't say Fe types blindly conform to society, I'm just saying that a lot of these things really seem to pull apart from what an Fe would find good manners or vital to bringing society together. Many just wouldn't do these things.

Really I myself have some interesting views on feminism. I'm sort of like the christian who doesn't believe in converting people, going to church and many parts of the bible, such as hell or gay marriage being a sin. I took what I wanted to get out of it to fit into what belongs in my own value system. Yes that probably sounds Fi to you all, but what I'm saying is I took the feministic approach to apply it to Fe principles. What I have noticed is most people who rant against feminism usually don't tell women to get back in the kitchen and make them a sandwhich. Instead, they seem to be against how feminism approaches the issues, and feel feminists only really care about women and not men. That should lead as a clue.

I'm not sure about Ti vs Fi and the whole be masculine thing. As far as feminism goes, it reaches to Fi the most I've noticed. I think it's because feminism goes against the grain, challenges the status quo and stands for personal rights, freedom and indiviuality. So I don't think it's really at all a matter of one group supports being masculine and the other supports being feminem and so on and so forth. I think if anything, it's not the belief of equal rights, but the movement itself that's fi. Feminism itself and equal rights for women are two different things if you really think about it. It's the same principles, but different approaches to it. Feministic approaches just seem to be very... fi to me as I said.


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## Alden (Nov 21, 2011)

myexplodingcat said:


> INTPs just don't seem to see any logical reason for male vs. female roles or inequality. I've never noticed any tendency towards anything like that. Maybe you're sensing the fact that most INTPs are guys?


 INTPs would probably only be interested in an equal or at least a perceived one. I believe this perception will translate into action (like respect) for as long as that perception holds.

In general, meh, we have other things to think about.

“How do you feel about women’s rights? I like either side of them.”–Groucho Marx


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## Tipo (Jan 12, 2017)

Sara Torailles said:


> Is it just my perceptions, or do Fi users seem to be more likely to be advocates of feminism, and Ti users advocates of masculism? I ask because I feel I've seen this trend in a lot of issues. I know skycloud is a feminist, but a heck of a lot of NTP's I've seen tend to lean against feminism, and I'd like to figure out why in terms of cognitive functions.
> 
> The last thing I want is arguments that question the validity here, so if you have a soapbox, please kindly cram it. That goes for both sides. I swear, all the conflict makes me so angry, I sometimes want to live in a communist dictatorship where no one has any rights at all to free speech just to stop hearing a bunch of idiots with an "us" vs "them" mentality.
> 
> ...


I'm very callous and uncaring but I call myself a feminist, equal rights for all are important to me
I don't think thinking=masculine=meninist, probably there are just a lot of trolls and misogynists on the internet who happen to be ntps


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