# For those of you who have been through hard times



## cosmoetic (Mar 24, 2020)

All my life I've had the belief that hard times make people tougher and therefore I told myself this through difficult times and pain.

Lately, however, I've reflected on this a bit and I've realized that there are so many sour and miserable people who went through rough experiences and honestly when I look at them sometimes I feel frightened that I might turn out like them. Now I feel like saying this is just something we like to tell ourselves to justify the misery we're going through.

At first, you just keep looking back saying, "I survived that, I can survive this". Eventually, though, it wears you down and makes everything more difficult. It can even strip the good parts away. You can be so focused on the negatives that you forget to see the positives you have. I don't think this betters you as a person at all.

For those of you who have been through hard times, what do you think ?


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## Nier Schintterhaven (Jul 21, 2018)

I think when it comes to this saying, "hard times make people tougher " ,it has a fatal flaw. It mixes learning from experience with actually becoming more resilient. From every new situation you encounter, you can learn, that is true. You can recognize the patterns in the future, and will be able to make better decisions. But sadly, this has nothing to do with becoming stronger. Negative things, indeed wearing down people. And no matter how well you learnt your lesson, if you experienced too much negativeness, you may become unable to use this experience properly. Of course, this leads to another and another poor decisions, which leads to another negative impact. To become stronger, is also a different learning proccess. These two things must be learned seperately. Without bore you too much with my own experiences with hard times, I just say, that if we observe people and their hard times, we always encounter with one pattern. And this is that they don't have a reason to continue. They don't have a vision they want to turn to reality. So, the only time, when someone is losing, is when they don't have a reason. If there is a reason, there is a reason to learn to be stronger too. I think if everyone would be able to find their reason, people in general, would be more resilient. It does not matter if things are bad, and hard. The only question is that do you WANT something, or DON'T?

Ofc. At the end of the day, life is just natural reactions, and it does not matter to the universe that people live or die (as there was a functioning universe before humans, or known living beings) - so it does not have any point, it is nothing. But if you give it a reason, then it becomes something, for YOU. And you live your life, so this should be enough to continue to live, which can't be happening without enough power to make progress.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

I guess it depends too on what is meant by 'tougher'? For some people that think they've become tougher perhaps only became deadened or desensitized to whatever 'traumatic' experiences it was they suffered through.

As you touched on personally, I believe in it to the degree that surviving alone after experiencing certain struggles and - not even specifically coming out of them triumphant but - just knowing that you're capable to endure that type of torment regardless of whether or not you'd choose to undergo through them again _is_ 'toughness' added.



> At first, you just keep looking back saying, "I survived that, I can survive this". Eventually, though, it wears you down and makes everything more difficult. It can even strip the good parts away. You can be so focused on the negatives that you forget to see the positives you have.


Generally speaking practicing gratitude is one method to counter focusing too much on negatives. It's like that thing they teach you when you're a kid about how when experiencing pain somewhere, if you give yourself another more serious injury, your brain shifts the focus to that new pain so your wish of getting rid of previous pain was granted... Though I suppose for many sufferers/sufferings, it may be hard to find much to be grateful for at all.

When people are experiencing tough times it's easy to forget or lose sight of 'good' 'out there' or in their lives. I think that's really a shame too because turning things around can come quickly after snowballing a few positive experiences/feedback. For severe cases though, pseudo psych shit like that probably doesn't really help if say, you're living in extreme poverty and have absolutely zero access to any types of assistance.


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## Reginer (Jun 18, 2020)

Hmm, I guess I am one of such people. Anyways now I am usually avoidant, tend to be suspicious of people or try to push them away, can be mean(earlier I was too polite that people considered it either robotic or just tried to take advantage of me), am indifferent to others, pessimistic(earlier I was a bit optimistic), cynical(this I always was internally). Anyways I am not willing to go into details of my personal experiences. On the positive side, it opened me up to harsh reality of the world soon, so it is better to not expect much. Also as a result I think I know what should be attempted to fixed, but I was always good at finding faults with things anyways and possible solutions(which may not be tangible).


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## sibersonique (Jun 18, 2020)

cosmoetic said:


> All my life I've had the belief that hard times make people tougher and therefore I told myself this through difficult times and pain.
> 
> Lately, however, I've reflected on this a bit and I've realized that there are so many sour and miserable people who went through rough experiences and honestly when I look at them sometimes I feel frightened that I might turn out like them. Now I feel like saying this is just something we like to tell ourselves to justify the misery we're going through.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I'm saying this right. I've survived a lot of difficult times--physically difficult, mentally and emotionally difficult, and financially difficult. I don't know that the difficult times themselves made me tougher, or even just surviving them made me tougher. I think working through them made me more resilient and have more empathy. And by working through them I mean things like:


facing fear (talking to that boss, that banker, that mom...)
keeping in touch with friends
treating your body/mind/spirit with respect (I still have a lot of work to do on this one)
keeping a gratitude list
journal writing
meditation
prayer
reading positive literature
Twenty-five years ago, I was hospitalized with severe depression. I hated that whole experience--my doctor, the nurses, the food, the therapy groups, the curtains, the carpeting...the whole shebang. When I got out, my doctor gave me a treatment plan to follow. And I followed it, because I was determined not to go back to the hospital. I'm glad to be able to say it helped. And I learned a lot from that experience about working through difficult times. I honestly believe I came out the other side a better person for having gone through it. But I wouldn't want to do it again.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

cosmoetic said:


> All my life I've had the belief that hard times make people tougher and therefore I told myself this through difficult times and pain.
> 
> Lately, however, I've reflected on this a bit and I've realized that there are so many sour and miserable people who went through rough experiences and honestly when I look at them sometimes I feel frightened that I might turn out like them. Now I feel like saying this is just something we like to tell ourselves to justify the misery we're going through.
> 
> ...


Everyone has hard times. Keep worrying about being bitter. That's part of how you avoid being bitter. Be aware that life will be challenging at times and choose not to be bitter about it.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

when bad things happen to you as a child, it not only fails to make you stronger, but can impair you as a person in ways that it takes years to overcome.


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## APBReloaded (Mar 8, 2019)

My pride ran me into a wall. If I can teach you anything, it's that pride will destroy you faster than anything else. Not even lust or wrath have the potential to destroy as much as pride does.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

sibersonique said:


> Twenty-five years ago, I was hospitalized with severe depression. I hated that whole experience--my doctor, the nurses, the food, the therapy groups, the curtains, the carpeting...the whole shebang. When I got out, my doctor gave me a treatment plan to follow. And I followed it, because I was determined not to go back to the hospital. I'm glad to be able to say it helped. And I learned a lot from that experience about working through difficult times. I honestly believe I came out the other side a better person for having gone through it. But I wouldn't want to do it again.


I also had a similar experience to the above poster. I was institutionalized for a psychiatric episode, I believe hard times can make you stronger, but I wouldn't want to go back there and experience them again.

It does most definitely lead to a re-evaluation phase, however difficult it may be, and you start to focus on what's important to you more and your filter becomes greater in those terms. 

I guess it's not what others do to you that affects everything, but it most definitely had a bearing on my attitude toward certain people and the world. 

If a bad experience makes you more sensitive and allows you to practice self control better, like it did for me, it's a vital thing to learn from bad experiences you have not just good experiences you have. It can determine your outcomes; you may end up in a better place later for having a bad experience. sometimes bad justifies and is the reason for something good or better that later happens in your life


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## cosmoetic (Mar 24, 2020)

Nier Schintterhaven said:


> I think when it comes to this saying, "hard times make people tougher " ,it has a fatal flaw. It mixes learning from experience with actually becoming more resilient. From every new situation you encounter, you can learn, that is true. You can recognize the patterns in the future, and will be able to make better decisions. But sadly, this has nothing to do with becoming stronger. Negative things, indeed wearing down people. And no matter how well you learnt your lesson, if you experienced too much negativeness, you may become unable to use this experience properly. Of course, this leads to another and another poor decisions, which leads to another negative impact. To become stronger, is also a different learning proccess. These two things must be learned seperately. Without bore you too much with my own experiences with hard times, I just say, that if we observe people and their hard times, we always encounter with one pattern. And this is that they don't have a reason to continue. They don't have a vision they want to turn to reality. So, the only time, when someone is losing, is when they don't have a reason. If there is a reason, there is a reason to learn to be stronger too. I think if everyone would be able to find their reason, people in general, would be more resilient. It does not matter if things are bad, and hard. The only question is that do you WANT something, or DON'T?


Very good way of explaining what I thought about as well.


I do find that even though I may be stronger, than I ever was before in my life, but I also feel somehow feel heavy.




xraydav said:


> I believe hard times can make you stronger, but I wouldn't want to go back there and experience them again.
> 
> 
> It does most definitely lead to a re-evaluation phase, however difficult it may be, and you start to focus on what's important to you more and your filter becomes greater in those terms.


i am conscious about the fact that this was the only way for me to become stronger, one can't achieve the same without the experience, So I don't know why I am often times burdened and worn out mentally, when actually I like myself being stronger.



BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> When people are experiencing tough times it's easy to forget or lose sight of 'good' 'out there' or in their lives. I think that's really a shame too because turning things around can come quickly after snowballing a few positive experiences/feedback. For severe cases though, pseudo psych shit like that probably doesn't really help if say, you're living in extreme poverty and have absolutely zero access to any types of assistance.



A possible explanation I can think of is that even though we go through difficulties, perhaps in our subconscious we become resentful toward all that time and all that energy that we had to use.

I often times found that when I go through a storm in my life, I tend to remain in that storm a bit longer, and my situation hasn’t changed much in a long time, at least not for the better, despite my efforts. The good feels further and further away, there is not much pushing me, most days I just feel like wasted space.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

cosmoetic said:


> A possible explanation I can think of is that even though we go through difficulties, perhaps in our subconscious we become resentful toward all that time and all that energy that we had to use.


True, like we 'lost' out on time/a life we should have had. Not to mention the fact that being subjected to difficulties over a long period of time, you can sort of end up getting accustomed to that 'experience', and maybe your subconscious tricks you into believing you don't deserve better, and/or even that you're unable to do/get better.



> I often times found that when I go through a storm in my life, I tend to remain in that storm a bit longer, and my situation hasn’t changed much in a long time, at least not for the better, despite my efforts. The good feels further and further away, there is not much pushing me, most days I just feel like wasted space.


By situation, do you mean life circumstances, health, or maybe both/other? Have you ever been tested for depression?



> I do find that even though I may be stronger, than I ever was before in my life, but I also feel somehow feel heavy.


I used to feel like I had so much to do, but never any real desire/motivation to start. It's like there were so many reasons pushing me forward, but I wouldn't allow myself to take any steps towards action. I rationalized it to myself with whatever justifications, but ultimately think a lot of it came down to some kind of fear, repressed. Not necessarily fear of unknowns, but maybe more a fear of what was already known, and a repetition of experiences.

Like, maybe living in that dull state was safer because at least all was already revealed. It's not something I could really face head on(by thoughts/thinking), and to this day I don't think I've 'properly' done so anyways, but I found that having 'direction' to know when you're moving and when you're stagnant helped a lot. If I were just moving in the direction I set out by even the smallest of amounts, I was 'doing' it.

At some point, measuring progression has fallen to the side of keeping up with the 'moment'um. Maybe the mind followed the spirit(body).


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

My thought is that there's learning in everything, regardless of how the times are described. Either we learn and grow or we don't. 

I believe the people you are afraid of becoming are the ones who do not take the opportunity to look for the lesson.


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## JimT (May 31, 2010)

cosmoetic said:


> [snipped...] At first, you just keep looking back saying, "I survived that, I can survive this". Eventually, though, it wears you down and makes everything more difficult. It can even strip the good parts away. You can be so focused on the negatives that you forget to see the positives you have. I don't think this betters you as a person at all.
> 
> For those of you who have been through hard times, what do you think ?


When you're a kid, you go through 12 years of schooling, maybe more if you go off to college. You're learning new skills every day, but it doesn't seem overly burdensome because you have teachers and mentors to hold your hand every step of the way, and textbooks to guide you. It would be a whole lot harder to learn that stuff if you had to figure it out on your own as you went.

But after school you get into a whole new kind of learning: Life skills. Relationship skills, raising children, job and workplace skills, dealing with personal finances, conflict management, being a good subordinate, being a good boss, paying taxes, buying a house, suffering financial setbacks, crashing your car, getting divorced, etc. But the difference now is that you have to learn all this new stuff without help. You're on your own, making it up as you go, and sometimes you get bogged down to the point that you get "held back" a few years because you're a slow learner. Some lessons you just give up on, but they come back to haunt you later and hold you back in life. And so on.

It doesn't necessarily mean that there's anything wrong with you, or with life. It's more about seeking out some help or guidance at times: A mentor, a life coach, a therapist, a self-help book or two, maybe take some on-line courses in a skill where you're weak, etc. Or maybe hire an accountant or a handyman or a lawyer to help you with specialized skills.

The problem is that people want to quit learning after high school or college. They think that they've paid their dues on the learning side of life, and now they just want to coast. But the hardest learning of all is just getting started right as school ends. If you're up for it and don't mind learning new lessons, then it's not bad. You can learn this stuff the same way you learned math or science or literature. But if you hunker down and try to avoid the lesson, then yeah, life will beat you down and wear you out and make you rue the day you were born. You can't just run and hide from life skills. Because life becomes pretty damned hard without those skills.

That's my two cents on the subject.

By the way, I'm in my mid-60s and have been through some hard times. Inevitably, my hard times were made harder in those cases where I tried to hide my head in the sand or pretend I had the situation under control, instead of seeking out the help or learning that I needed.


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## cosmoetic (Mar 24, 2020)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> True, like we 'lost' out on time/a life we should have had. Not to mention the fact that being subjected to difficulties over a long period of time, you can sort of end up getting accustomed to that 'experience', and maybe your subconscious tricks you into believing you don't deserve better, and/or even that you're unable to do/get better.


Yes, when things have been the same way for long you really do get used to it and only expect so much. That and my upbringing have molded me to perhaps expect the worse.




BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> By situation, do you mean life circumstances, health, or maybe both/other? Have you ever been tested for depression?


Really is both at the moment. No I haven't been tested for depression, something to look into but I don't know if I even have the motivation to do that lol.




BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> I used to feel like I had so much to do, but never any real desire/motivation to start. It's like there were so many reasons pushing me forward, but I wouldn't allow myself to take any steps towards action. I rationalized it to myself with whatever justifications, but ultimately think a lot of it came down to some kind of fear, repressed. Not necessarily fear of unknowns, but maybe more a fear of what was already known, and a repetition of experiences.
> 
> Like, maybe living in that dull state was safer because at least all was already revealed. It's not something I could really face head on(by thoughts/thinking), and to this day I don't think I've 'properly' done so anyways, but I found that having 'direction' to know when you're moving and when you're stagnant helped a lot. If I were just moving in the direction I set out by even the smallest of amounts, I was 'doing' it.
> 
> At some point, measuring progression has fallen to the side of keeping up with the 'moment'um. Maybe the mind followed the spirit(body).


Thank you that's very relatable. I'm rather self critical of my work and most of the time feel overwhelming apathy toward anything and everything in my life. That's the feeling I get. It's not a feeling of sadness. It's _nothing_. I just simply don’t care or have that instinctual drive in my gut to do what I know needs done.


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## blueberry22 (May 11, 2018)

I think it has more to do with upbringing, formidable years and wealth.
There are many studies that suggest that the first seven to eight years of life heavily influences the personality and ability of an individual. If you had a shitty home life as a child, you have a higher chance of making shittier choices and having a shittier perspective on things. If you had a healthirr and positive upbringing as a child, you'll see things in a lot more positive way.
Wealth also comes into play. If you constantly have to worry about paying the bills, your mind will constantly be occupied this worry and encourage negative thoughts.
If you have a bit or a lot of wealth and don't have to worry about how you will survive in the future, you can focus more of your energy on different aspects of your life without dwelling on the dark future of not having enough.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

The tough attitude will serve you for as long as things aren't going well. Once you dig yourself out of the hole, you need love, kindness and people who are meaningful to you. 

I think it's important to realize that going through hell isn't easy for anyone and it changes you as a person. It's natural to take some of that with you wherever you go and it's hard to move past something like that. 

That said, there are skills that will help you. Seeking and accepting help, allowing people to see the vulnerable side of you and sometimes letting your guard down around people you trust are necessary for becoming whole again. 
It's also okay to see this as a process. You don't have to just 'be better' at some point. It's a journey and sometimes 'doing the dishes' can be a real accomplishment, other times you fidn yourself excelling at a job or making promotion. 

The hardest part is that goalposts move and you might not see that you're doing better while you're still on your journey. The fear of sliding back and being back where you started is paralyzing and can easily lead you to holding yourself back or worse. 

I think most of the 'toughness' attitude can be a double-edged sword. On the one hand you need it to survive, on the other it can keep others at a distance. Try to move to a point where you can protect yourself while still allowing others in. That's the road to being better.

Sorry if this was just a long ramble, maybe someone finds it interesting or useful.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

JimT said:


> When you're a kid, you go through 12 years of schooling, maybe more if you go off to college. You're learning new skills every day, but it doesn't seem overly burdensome because you have teachers and mentors to hold your hand every step of the way, and textbooks to guide you. It would be a whole lot harder to learn that stuff if you had to figure it out on your own as you went.
> 
> But after school you get into a whole new kind of learning: Life skills. Relationship skills, raising children, job and workplace skills, dealing with personal finances, conflict management, being a good subordinate, being a good boss, paying taxes, buying a house, suffering financial setbacks, crashing your car, getting divorced, etc. But the difference now is that you have to learn all this new stuff without help. You're on your own, making it up as you go, and sometimes you get bogged down to the point that you get "held back" a few years because you're a slow learner. Some lessons you just give up on, but they come back to haunt you later and hold you back in life. And so on.
> 
> ...


I appreciated this insight
Thank You


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## Spacecabinet (Oct 7, 2020)

I mostly agree. Experiences only make you tougher if you have the resilience for it. Otherwise, they'll destroy you. In my own experience, my hard times didn't improve me, it impaired me. Without going into too much detail, I was a kid and I wasn't prepared for it. It's painful to think about what my life would've been like without it, I feel like I was setback instead of "toughened up." Only now I feel like I'm strong enough to deal with it. But many people get hit with a bad experience way over their threshold and they can't recover. Which is why people commit suicide, or become miserable and sour (like you said), or become abusive dickheads. I would say it's up to the person to create meaning out of their experiences, but I would understand if they succumbed to it.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

cosmoetic said:


> For those of you who have been through hard times, what do you think ?


It's bollocks. A minor hardship could improve a person's character, but seriously difficult situations? Maybe for a really monstrous, sociopathic person who was unlikely to otherwise see how/why to change; for other people, nope. The only thing that shit does is prepare you for more negative situations.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." is just another "positive-minded" bullshit platitude that anyone who _thinks_ a little can shoot holes through.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

cosmoetic said:


> All my life I've had the belief that hard times make people tougher and therefore I told myself this through difficult times and pain.
> 
> Lately, however, I've reflected on this a bit and I've realized that there are so many sour and miserable people who went through rough experiences and honestly when I look at them sometimes I feel frightened that I might turn out like them. Now I feel like saying this is just something we like to tell ourselves to justify the misery we're going through.
> 
> ...


Being miserable is a choice, not an inevitable outcome. You're not a victim. Take the reigns of your own mental health.


_“Out of damp and gloomy days, out of solitude, out of loveless words directed at us, conclusions grow up in us like fungus: one morning they are there, we know not how, and they gaze upon us, morose and gray. Woe to the thinker who is not the gardener but only the soil of the plants that grow in him.” _- Friedrich Nietzsche


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

Tough, indifferent, miserable, in denial; it works different for everyone, but in general no, "suffering is a choice" is mostly bullshit. You either feel bad and recover, so you don't feel as bad in the first place, or you feel extremely bad and you're stuck in life. Call it hope, genetics, luck, whatever, but we all come with a different code and process experiences differently. 

Hardships in life _can _make someone worse, miserable (they often do, just look around), and many of these people can even trick themselves as much as they want, find dependence in other things and distract their minds here and there, but it won't change the fact that they're repressing it and that it will hit them back at some point. Hopefully not in their 50's with a gun in their mouth, but no one is supposed to acknowledge that because "positive vibes only", right? Faith can do it all.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Nannerl said:


> Tough, indifferent, miserable, in denial; it works different for everyone, but in general no, "suffering is a choice" is mostly bullshit. You either feel bad and recover, so you don't feel as bad in the first place, or you feel extremely bad and you're stuck in life. Call it hope, genetics, luck, whatever, but we all come with a different code and process experiences differently.
> 
> Hardships in life _can _make someone worse, miserable (they often do, just look around), and many of these people can even trick themselves as much as they want, find dependence in other things and distract their minds here and there, but it won't change the fact that they're repressing it and that it will hit them back at some point. Hopefully not in their 50's with a gun in their mouth, but no one is supposed to acknowledge that because "positive vibes only", right? Faith can do it all.


Thank you. I'm a mostly happy person, but I get rather annoyed by the "suffering is always a choice" "positive vibes only" shit too. To me it seems like people often say shit like that because its easier to blame someone for their misery than it is to try to understand or empathize with them. So you overcame challenges? Good for you. But that doesn't mean everyone is as capable as you are at overcoming those challenges. But I will still say that sometimes some people overcome "extremely bad", not just "bad". That's evident for me because my psychosis was a living hell. But without pills I never would've overcame it. Plus I'm probably not completely traumatized by my psychosis because of the nature of it as far as how a person often only has some glimpses of memories and overall a very foggy memory of once being ill from psychosis.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Nannerl said:


> Tough, indifferent, miserable, in denial; it works different for everyone, but in general no, "suffering is a choice" is mostly bullshit.


I didn't say that suffering is a choice. I said that happiness is. I don't particularly appreciate the implication that to not be unhappy is to be in denial, either. Just because YOU have not experienced something does not mean it's bullshit and others' experiences are inauthentic and invalid. You say it works differently for everyone but your views have a pessimistic lean and dismiss the possibility that a person is able to be genuinely happy despite going through hardships. However, I understand that you have less experience than I do in the mental health department. I don't believe in guiding or directing others without having experience yourself in something. If you don't know how to be happy it doesn't make sense to tell anyone else what it takes to be, nor whether it's possible to be.

I don't believe in the "positive vibes" or "faith" shit, or toxic positivity.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Nannerl said:


> "suffering is a choice" "positive vibes only", right? Faith can do it all.





Ock said:


> "suffering is always a choice" "positive vibes only"


If this is what you two think "not miserable" means then you don't understand at all.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Maybe it could be argued that my humility is naive, but I genuinely don't think I am more capable of happiness or overcoming than other human beings. I think it's more precise to say that not everyone knows how than to say not everyone is able. There are obviously going to be some exceptions, such as some case of retardation or something where the person isn't able to learn things as well, but I'm saying in general the average person is no less capable. Just less educated / knowledgeable / wise sometimes.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Ock said:


> To me it seems like people often say shit like that because its easier to blame someone for their misery than it is to try to understand or empathize with them. So you overcame challenges?


So telling a person they're helpless, incapable, and should give up because not everyone is capable of overcoming challenges is more empathetic? And you can't be understanding while simultaneously telling them they have more control over things than they think they do? To believe in them and that they can do things is to blame them for their problems?


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Circumstances can genuinely add to the likelihood of someone being miserable and unhappy, sometimes its tough not to, no matter how much strength and will to overcome difficulties someone has. You cant just look at the positive side and ignore having lost a loved one, a job, financial stability, your health and well being, your time. The shock is understandable and feeling unhappy or miserable is valid.

But there is a difference between accepting those circumstances that lead to unhappiness and not trying to desperately find hope to escape that situation. Feeling miserable is not a choice but _being_ miserable is. Because it means giving up and accepting things as they are, believing unhappiness and hopelessness are a natural outcome that cant be changed. Of course some conditions cant (health, life/death, loss etc) but if there is a way to find hope out there to regain happiness then there is a hope to escape that situation also. The drive towards improvement, survival, hope refines a person and sets a distinction between who is pitiable and who is resilient.

I am aware that this hope existing doesnt always indicate results, sometimes life is too overwhelming and the outcome unavoidable. But there is a strong addition in the probability to overcome the situation to be gained if the mindset and focus are in place.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

@Hexcoder
I was not answering to you, but if you want me to, okay.


Hexcoder said:


> I don't particularly appreciate the implication that to not be unhappy is to be in denial


I never said that, I said that being in denial _can_ happen (and it does) and then focused on people who are miserable as a consequence of a hardship and the things that might happen after. If you're not miserable, I'm glad for you, my insight is explicitly not referring to you.


Hexcoder said:


> Just because YOU have not experienced something does not mean it's bullshit and others' experiences are inauthentic and invalid


Firstly, I'm not invalidating your personal experience, I simply think it can't be generalised and be held as a rule because what you did helped you. 
Secondly, I don't think happiness is bullshit, I think this is (mostly) bullshit:


> Being miserable is a choice





> It's entirely what you make of it.


Yes, you can choose how to deal with something, but not how you feel about it. You can drink water, do exercise, get a career, push yourself ahead, try to enjoy sunsets and the smell of bread, etc., and still be miserable. It is not a choice. You're talking from personal experience, I am as well, and not just on my behalf. Some people can try the same things you did, become successful even, and still not make it. 

You can try to help others and give hope with your experience, of course, but it doesn't mean that the ones who don't have the same result as you are weaker or did something wrong; people are different. For example, you have mentioned before you don't remember some traumas with importance; that is great, but that is not the case for everyone. Some feel devastated because of it everyday of their life. That you have been through the same scenarios that other people have does not translate to you having experienced the same emotionally. Good, you're not traumatised enough to be desperate to commit suicide, is it okay then to say the person who can't take it anymore that they're not trying hard enough, like you did? 


Hexcoder said:


> You say it works different for everyone but your views have a pessimistic lean and dismiss the possibility that a person is able to be genuinely happy despite going through hardships


Seems pessimistic because I openly focused on acknowledging the people who don't have the 'mind-control' 'happy-ending' you mention. It's not pessimistic, they exist, and their existence does not exclude others with a 'happy ending', but I hope it does decrease the blame on them. 


Hexcoder said:


> I don't believe in guiding or directing others without having experience yourself in something


I'm not guiding anyone, I'm acknowledging a fact. 

For the rest I have no comment. If you want to believe you're the only one with bad experiences and with all the knowledge about pain in the world (like that's a thing), it's not my problem. I don't care about convincing you about something as obvious as 'your life and your feelings' are _your _life and _your _feelings.


Hexcoder said:


> I have been through all sorts of hell my entire life and I strongly disagree.





Hexcoder said:


> I've basically been through it all.





Hexcoder said:


> I understand that you have less experience than I do in the mental health department.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Hexcoder said:


> So telling a person they're helpless, incapable, and should give up because not everyone is capable of overcoming challenges is more empathetic?


I don't generally tell people what they are or are not capable of. I might make some suggestions for people, but I generally don't know what to say. Usually I just try to listen and understand, and _sometimes_ that's the best thing I can do for them, which depending on the person can _sometimes_ actually mean a lot to them.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Nannerl said:


> Tough, indifferent, miserable, in denial; it works different for everyone, but in general no, "suffering is a choice" is mostly bullshit. You either feel bad and recover, *so you don't feel as bad in the first place*, or you feel extremely bad and you're stuck in life. Call it hope, genetics, luck, whatever, but we all come with a different code and process experiences differently.


Thats a very nihilistic / deterministic view, I agree that people have different capacity to deal with challenges but the bolded here is overly simplifying the suffering and summarizing it as feeling bad. There are often mental health factors relative to that variety in capacity, and there are medications that can work and resolve those issues. Im not sure if resilience is inherent, there is no proof of that, maybe some of it is genes, but that doesnt contradict the fact that life experience adds to its value. But point being, managing to find a way out of suffering doesnt imply that the suffering was never great enough for you by itself.



Nannerl said:


> Hardships in life _can _make someone worse, miserable (they often do, just look around), and many of these people can even trick themselves as much as they want, find dependence in other things and distract their minds here and there, but it won't change the fact that they're repressing it and that it will hit them back at some point. Hopefully not in their 50's with a gun in their mouth, but no one is supposed to acknowledge that because "positive vibes only", right? Faith can do it all.


Denial is often a bad coping mechanism to get rid of suffering since it suggests looking away from issues and not working towards resolving them. So i wouldnt take it as an objective measure of inherent inability to overcome difficulties, often its just lacking self awareness and seeking comfort instead of challenging yourself.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Nannerl said:


> @Hexcoder
> I was not answering to you, but if you want me to, okay.


I actually didn't think you were answering to her either. Next thing I knew I inadvertently stepped on her foot.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Nannerl said:


> @Hexcoder
> I was not answering to you, but if you want me to, okay.


My apologies then...it was so close to my own exact wording that I thought it was a response.


Hexcoder said:


> Being miserable is a choice, not an inevitable outcome.





Nannerl said:


> "suffering is a choice" is mostly bullshit.


The rest spawned from this misunderstanding.
@Ock


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

SirCanSir said:


> Thats a very nihilistic / deterministic view, I agree that people have different capacity to deal with challenges but the bolded here is overly simplifying the suffering and summarizing it as feeling bad. There are often mental health factors relative to that variety in capacity, and there are medications that can work and resolve those issues. Im not sure if resilience is inherent, there is no proof of that, maybe some of it is genes, but that doesnt contradict the fact that life experience adds to its value. But point being, managing to find a way out of suffering doesnt imply that the suffering was never great enough for you by its


But I am deterministic.









Well, I was not expecting someone would take “feeling bad” this literally. You still got the point though, cool.

True, finding a way out does not mean your suffering was never great, it just means it no longer is. Some people can get there because of strong will (I guess), faith, dependence on someone else, etc; for other people this is not enough. Yes, medication can help; it also can't. Misery is not necessarily being in the verge of a breakdown all the time, it can be an understanding, it can be passive and conscious, it can be self-awareness.

But it's alright, I believe people can and must get help, many recover and become better, it's just not a general rule.


SirCanSir said:


> Denial is often a bad coping mechanism to get rid of suffering since it suggests looking away from issues and not working towards resolving them. So i wouldnt take it as an objective measure of inherent inability to overcome difficulties, often its just lacking self awareness and seeking comfort instead of challenging yourself.


You're talking about it like it's always a conscious process, or that is rare. It is a bad coping mechanism, and yet it is the most recommended strategy, because it's what makes us work socially. We need to lie to ourselves sometimes because we can't break apart over every little thing. What do therapists recommend? Start socializing, talk about it, eat healthy, take meds, blahblah, “if you don't think about the pain, you're not in pain”, etc. You can resolve an issue and still find nothing. Faith is their main prescription, the treatment is that you're supposed to buy it, you're supposed to want to be better so hard that you will trick yourself into doing it, but if you don't, well, they have nothing for that.

I would not take “denial” so lightly. Many want to get better (or not get worse) and they clinge to whatever they can, that is normal and understandable in absolutely everyone. The thing is, something is not a lie until reality is evident, which usually happens inadvertently. Recovery is not linear in mental health, and often is never over during this timeline (+ it's expensive), so 'denial' path is popular. Sometimes is not on purpose, sometimes you have a system telling you you need to be productive and go on, until some can't take it anymore. It's not necessarily a lack of self-awareness, you can be pretty conscious of what is going on with you and accept life does not offer something you want, but of course, no one wants to face what comes after a person realizes that because “that is not supposed to happen”.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

c:


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Nannerl said:


> But I am deterministic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Short philosophical rant:
On a much greater scale I am also, i believe everything follows the rule of cause and effect after all, but I dont see the point in living by that mindset, because we dont know in what ways our will is determined. So restricting free will out of determinism just leads to nihilism, a mindset that is meaningless because it can create very inaccurate expectations. We dont know all the factors in play to guess the effects so guessing our limits is merely an assumption. I just live my life and exercise my will in the small scale in any way i see possible, because i see changes happen out of it that wouldnt if i stayed inactive. Its not like life is automatic even you believe in determinism after all. If we are pieces in the game our job is to play so we may as well do what we can.



> True, finding a way out does not mean your suffering was never great, it just means it no longer is. Some people can get there because of strong will (I guess), faith, dependence on someone else, etc; for other people this is not enough. Yes, medication can help; it also can't. Misery is not necessarily being in the verge of a breakdown all the time, it can be an understanding, it can be passive and conscious, it can be self-awareness.
> 
> But it's alright, I believe people can and must get help, many recover and become better, it's just not a general rule.


My whole point is that the mindset affects the chances to break out of suffering, not that it necessarily will lead to results. But how will someone know before they try?
By try, i mean all the methods applicable in the situation, whether that is medication, therapy or changes in every day routine approaches even. Anything that can potentially work.



Nannerl said:


> You're talking about it like it's always a conscious process, or that is rare. It is a bad coping mechanism, and yet it is the most recommended strategy, because it's what makes us work socially. We need to lie to ourselves sometimes because we can't break apart over every little thing. What do therapists recommend? Start socializing, talk about it, eat healthy, take meds, blahblah, “if you don't think about the pain, you're not in pain”, etc. You can resolve an issue and still find nothing. Faith is their main prescription, the treatment is that you're supposed to buy it, you're supposed to want to be better so hard that you will trick yourself into doing it, but if you don't, well, they have nothing for that.


Hmm no, depending on the issue its counterproductive, therapy also helps with reforming by externalizing feelings and thoughts deeply buried which is essential to confront issues. Those are methods that go against coping. I can understand how finding no solution leads to coping but im not sure that is the most common result, sometimes its also the difference in skill between therapists and psychiatrists to detect the issue. I think there are plenty of options to exhaust before giving up regardless.





> I would not take “denial” so lightly. Many want to get better (or not get worse) and they clinge to whatever they can, that is normal and understandable in absolutely everyone. The thing is, something is not a lie until reality is evident, which usually happens inadvertently. Recovery is not linear in mental health, and often is never over during this timeline (+ it's expensive), so 'denial' path is popular. Sometimes is not on purpose, sometimes you have a system telling you you need to be productive and go on, until some can't take it anymore. It's not necessarily a lack of self-awareness, you can be pretty conscious of what is going on with you and accept life does not offer something you want, but of course, no one wants to face what comes after a person realizes that because “that is not supposed to happen”.


Blocking your view mentally from seeing the solution is still lack of self awareness though. There may be a lot of factors that lead to denial, but its still something that can be worked on with proper guidance.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

After being molested by a family member, and running away from home at the age of 13, I kept getting dragged back and beaten by a frustrated father who couldn't seem to understand that I was running away from home for a reason.

I was eventually picked up by my mother as I was walking down the street and taken to another home in another town to start again. But it never started again. My new home had another male figure who was a sleazy drunk who kept telling me I was out of control and trying to sneak looks at me, it was relentless and fraught with violence. Shortly after the family member who molested me came to live in the same house with us and I was running away from home again. I was raped by a stranger on one of those times at the age of 14. I was 15 and I moved interstate to get away from all of them.

I eventually went and finished my high school by night school and enrolled at uni and educated myself. without any help from any of my family.

I never told anyone about my older brother molesting me until just two years ago.

It took me all that time to realise that none of it was my fault and I took the responsibility of all that abuse as mine. He'd created a narrative about me and himself and it was so impressive that even I believed it. I made them all look good for years by saying that they were alright, and I chose their good qualities and I forgave them all and I was the glue that held them all together and they all forgave me for my wayward years when my "hormonal" teens made me unreasonable. Until I told them what had happened. Then I was told about how everyone else was a victim as if it were some kind pity Olympics. All of them were adults when I was 13. 

Then I knew why I'd ran away in the first place.



I think it's perfectly OK to be bitter as long as you do it with curmudgeon class. Forgive or don't forgive but hold to yourself who you know yourself to be.
Process whatever the hell you want, do how you want, and don't let the bastards get you down.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

I think whatever opinion people have about this topic can't be a complete bullshit if this is a genuine reflection of their experiences and what worked for them. (excluding opinions about other opinions) 
Perspectives should be acknowledged for their inherent validity, especially if they come from those who clearly had it tough. Even though they may not be universally applicable.

Calling something a "shit" while not trying to understand what it means and entails is a bit counter-productive / naive.
All our views are ultimately limited by how and what we experience and must be recognized as such.
Rejection of something as invalid because you clearly "know better" is just hypocrisy.


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## Sinuous (Jun 18, 2021)

How do you define hard times?
Life was never linear for me or anyone I’m close to... so that’s the “normal” 
So there’s no “hard” .. a knot will simply be untied forcing another knot to form, dominos............... all solvable until you die.


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## Nannerl (Jan 6, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> I think whatever opinion people have about this topic can't be a complete bullshit if this is a genuine reflection of their experiences and what worked for them. (excluding opinions about other opinions)
> Perspectives should be acknowledged for their inherent validity, especially if they come from those who clearly had it tough. Even though they may not be universally applicable.
> 
> Calling something a "shit" while not trying to understand what it means and entails is a bit counter-productive / naive.
> ...


...
Hi.
So, I was not calling Hexcoder's experience bullshit, but the general thought of “suffering is a choice”. And yeah, I didn't say it was complete bullshit, I said mostly. 

I pointed out precisely that, that it worked for someone, does not mean it will work for everyone else, and you can't (well, can, but shouldn't) judge everyone else based on your experience - No, I don't think I'm doing exactly that when disagreeing with a monopolized idea held as 'truth' that will be contradicted at the exact moment someone else considers different perspectives. 

According to your reasoning, if someone says they know it all is okay, but if someone points out they probably don't is hypocrisy? Right. Why do people always think in exclusive terms? That she doesn't know better doesn't mean I know better, I literally never said that, we just know different. Don't generalize my ideas to defend her, thanks, you can do that privately. I already told her I was not invalidating her experience, but her universal affirmation. Respecting her life experiences won't translate into undermining mine. 



SirCanSir said:


> Blocking your view mentally from seeing the solution is still lack of self awareness though. There may be a lot of factors that lead to denial, but its still something that can be worked on with proper guidance.











The meme is shallow, but the point is: life works in a particular way, we won't escape that, even after resolving trauma. Some people can acknowledge that and find that what life has to offer is enough, while others prefer to die. Either way, that is how therapy works, you need to love the meaningless thing you do because you need to love the meaningless things you do because you need to. That's denial too. “You want to find a meaning in life, lazy ass? Get up and go to work”. 

— I would love to discuss about determinism and nihilism but writing never works with these topics.


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