# Two Paradoxes for the Price of One!



## Britt Mathis (Aug 11, 2011)

Knowing that digital space is a real issue these days I decided to be economical and provide *two* paradoxes for your debating enjoyment at the storage cost of one!

Okay, sarcasm aside; First, *The Grandfather Paradox*:

(via Wikipedia) "The grandfather paradox is a proposed paradox of time travel first described (in this exact form) by the science fiction writer René Barjavel in his 1943 book Le Voyageur Imprudent (Future Times Three).[1] The paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveler's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveler's parents (and by extension the traveler himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have traveled back in time after all, which means the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveler would have been conceived allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox.

Despite the name, the grandfather paradox does not exclusively regard the impossibility of one's own birth. Rather, it regards any action that makes impossible the ability to travel back in time in the first place. The paradox's namesake example is merely the most commonly thought of when one considers the whole range of possible actions. Another example would be using scientific knowledge to invent a time machine, then going back in time and (whether through murder or otherwise) impeding a scientist's work that would eventually lead to the very information that you used to invent the time machine."

And finally, the *Fermi Paradox*:

"The Fermi paradox (Fermi's paradox or Fermi-paradox) is the apparent contradiction between high estimates of the probability of the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations and the lack of evidence for, or contact with, such civilizations.

The age of the universe and its vast number of stars suggest that if the Earth is typical, extraterrestrial life should be common.[1] In an informal discussion in 1950, the physicist Enrico Fermi questioned why, if a multitude of advanced extraterrestrial civilizations exists in the Milky Way galaxy, evidence such as spacecraft or probes is not seen. A more detailed examination of the implications of the topic began with a paper by Michael H. Hart in 1975, and it is sometimes referred to as the Fermi–Hart paradox.[2] Other common names for the same phenomenon are Fermi's question ("Where are they?"), the Fermi Problem, the Great Silence,[3][4][5][6][7] and silentium universi[7][8] (Latin for "the silence of the universe"; the misspelling silencium universi is also common).

There have been attempts to resolve the Fermi paradox by locating evidence of extraterrestrial civilizations, along with proposals that such life could exist without human knowledge. Counterarguments suggest that intelligent extraterrestrial life does not exist or occurs so rarely or briefly that humans will never make contact with it.

Starting with Hart, a great deal of effort has gone into developing scientific theories about, and possible models of, extraterrestrial life, and the Fermi paradox has become a theoretical reference point in much of this work. The problem has spawned numerous scholarly works addressing it directly, while questions that relate to it have been addressed in fields as diverse as astronomy, biology, ecology, and philosophy. The emerging field of astrobiology has brought an interdisciplinary approach to the Fermi paradox and the question of extraterrestrial life."


I have purposely withheld links to the wikipedia pages because they contain purposed hypotheses to the paradoxes; I wish for you all to devise original and creative solutions to these problems, that is, of course, if you believe they even have solutions.


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

One theory about the Grandfather Paradox is that one cannot travel back in time and kill one's grandfather. One can shoot him and something comes in between him and the bullet, or the gun jams, or it turns out that the guy wasn't really the grandfather. Something will always prevent one from killing the grandfather before the time at which the father was born. 

Another solution to the Grandfather Paradox is that a new universe is created when the time traveler goes back in time and kills his grandfather. In this new universe, the time traveler does not exist, and in the original universe, the grandfather lives. 

Another ending to the paradox is called the Temporal Modification Negation Theory. It is similar to the Novikov Self-consistency Principle. In this theory, any action taken to kill your own grandfather would fail. In order for one to change the past, they would have to travel back in time and accidentally change something. 

For example, a person could not just travel back in time and invent the airplane before the Wright Brothers, because then they would have invented the airplane and would never have had a reason to travel back in time. However, if they travel back in time for some other reason, and end up failing to change the past as they intended, but accidentally invent the airplane before the Wright Brothers, then the change would stay, because there would still be a causality loop and a reason for them to travel back in time.


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## Britt Mathis (Aug 11, 2011)

I tend to side with the alternate universes theory there. Where, when one travels back in time, he becomes encased in his own new version of reality. Therefore, no one could simply invent time travel and go back in time and give it to himself. He would end up in a completely different reality.

What is your take on the Fermi paradox? And which one of the aforementioned 'solutions' to the Grandfather paradox do you agree the most with and why?


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

I agree with either the alternate universe theory or the Temporal Modification Negation Theory.

As for the Fermi paradox, I think either they have tried to communicate and have given up, or they have been here and left evidence.

Do you know anything about the Disclosure Project?


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## DarthSkywalker (Jul 24, 2011)

reality and time are both creations of my mind, as a result, experimenting with my past does not necessarily affect my future in the explicit sense.


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## Just_Some_Guy (Oct 8, 2009)

#1 You lost me at "assume time travel is possible." Well there's your paradox right there! 

#2 There's a lot of space between class M planets. Considering distance and signal degradation, it doesn't surprise me one bit that there's no evidence for extra terrestrial life. Also, if a civilization surpassed the speed of light for the transfer of information, our back-water species would be of absolutely no value to them. It would be like us trying to have a conversation with a mosquito!


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

You're assuming that there is no evidence for extra terrestrial life.


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## bigtex1989 (Feb 7, 2011)

A better paradox about aliens is what I like to call the "Adams Paradox" since it was introduced in THHGTTG series.

1) the universe is infinite
2) a planet is finite
3) there must then be an infinite number of planets
4) not all planets have life so there is a finite population of the universe
5) taking the average population per planet is (any number)/infinity = 0
6) the population of the universe is then the average population per planet times the number of planets which is 0
7) then we must not exist.


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## Holunder (May 11, 2010)

The Fermi Paradox isn't really a paradox, it's simply a theory not being verified by empiric results. The most logical conclusion would be that the theory is wrong - after all it's mostly based on assumptions of what is necessary to generate life, and how probable those circumstances are. Apart from that, life is not necessarily sentient life, and presumably only the latter would try to contact other lifeforms in the universe.

I don't think time travel is possible, after all what we call time is nothing but a means of measurement of how things change. It is not a dimension like space.
Even if we could travel "back in time" into a different universe, it wouldn't be time travel, but travel to a universe which has a time line that is shifted in comparison to ours.


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## bob_toeback (Aug 1, 2011)

@bigtex1989 - Well I dont see how there has to be infinite planets in an infinite space? There very well could be finite planets in an infinite space. Also, if there are infinite planets, with people on some planets, then there would have to be infinite people. Though I did enjoy your write up anyways lol 

Grandfather paradox is what I thought when I saw this thread. Time does not exist, therefore a time travel would not work. 

Planets with extraterrestrials might not exist because God might not want them, though Im assuming this is an evolutionist paradox


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

Holunder said:


> The Fermi Paradox isn't really a paradox, it's simply a theory not being verified by empiric results. The most logical conclusion would be that the theory is wrong - after all it's mostly based on assumptions of what is necessary to generate life, and how probable those circumstances are. Apart from that, life is not necessarily sentient life, and presumably only the latter would try to contact other lifeforms in the universe.
> 
> I don't think time travel is possible, after all what we call time is nothing but a means of measurement of how things change. It is not a dimension like space.
> Even if we could travel "back in time" into a different universe, it wouldn't be time travel, but travel to a universe which has a time line that is shifted in comparison to ours.


Time is much more than a means of measurement. Have you ever heard of the spacetime continuum?


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

bob_toeback said:


> @bigtex1989 - Well I dont see how there has to be infinite planets in an infinite space? There very well could be finite planets in an infinite space. Also, if there are infinite planets, with people on some planets, then there would have to be infinite people. Though I did enjoy your write up anyways lol
> 
> Grandfather paradox is what I thought when I saw this thread. Time does not exist, therefore a time travel would not work.
> 
> Planets with extraterrestrials might not exist because God might not want them, though Im assuming this is an evolutionist paradox


actually creationists have already begun trying to work explanations of ET's into their teachings. Something about the bible doesn't discount other species, that it was just meant for us so it is possible God might have created other life out there.

I personally don't expect us to recognize another advanced life form should we even be able to see it. Our senses and imaginations are severely limited in this aspect. Up until several years ago we just assumed that other life would have to be composed of the same 6 building blocks that exist in most of the worlds RNA and DNA. I use the word most as they have found a bacteria lifeform that has arsenic as one of those 6 building blocks from a lake in California I believe.

For all we know if a creature was capable of manipulating the universe, creating a star if they wished through science or "willing" it such as Abraham's God, they as well as their creations would not be visible to us as we currently comprehend information.

I agree with current consensus that the grandfather paradox is technically impossible. What would it take to change "history"? If I could convince the worlds inhabitants that I went back and changed something who is to say that I didn't? There would be no evidence one could use to prove otherwise depending on what claim I made. History being a part of "Time" is just a perception. Like others have stated I don't consider it a dimension, although I believe we are capable of manipulating everything even if it is perception of events.


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## ALNF1031 (Jul 27, 2011)

It is impossible to change history, if you do, you would have never gone back in time to change the thing you just changed, making it a paradox.


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## Just_Some_Guy (Oct 8, 2009)

NotSoRighteousRob said:


> actually creationists have already begun trying to work explanations of ET's into their teachings. Something about the bible doesn't discount other species, that it was just meant for us so it is possible God might have created other life out there.


Did Jesus Christ die for the sins of space aliens?????


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## Holunder (May 11, 2010)

Einstein said:


> Time is much more than a means of measurement. Have you ever heard of the spacetime continuum?


The space time continuum is a model. It only _describes_ reality. Time not being a dimension is my own interpretation, though, I have nothing to back that up.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

Infinite space does not necessarily mean infinite planets. 
Infinite planets does not necessarily mean infinite planets that have people on them, either.

Lots of planets makes us _think_ of probabilities of there being life out there somewhere. This is erroneous, however. This is forming a belief based on probability, which has no bearing on what is actual - either there is other life in reality with probability of exactly 1, or there isn't. 

What exists right now is what exists right now. It doesn't just pop into being from rolling some probability dice. Either there are other beings out there, or there are not, and we won't know if there are until we find evidence of some.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

My favorite solution to the Fermi Paradox is that life is a very _rare_ phenomenon in the universe, even if Earth is a typical planet.


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## affezwilling (Feb 1, 2011)

EmotionallyTonedGeometry said:


> Did Jesus Christ die for the sins of space aliens?????


My initial thought was, presuming that God did create the universe and he created intelligent life on planets other than Earth that he would therefore have assumed the identity of said intelligent life forms in the same way as he did when he assumed the form of Jesus.

My amendment to that thought was, what would Jesus look like as a grey alien? I'm now picturing a dark skinned grey with with curly hair and a beard. ;P


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

affezwilling said:


> My initial thought was, presuming that God did create the universe and he created intelligent life on planets other than Earth that he would therefore have assumed the identity of said intelligent life forms in the same way as he did when he assumed the form of Jesus.
> 
> My amendment to that thought was, what would Jesus look like as a grey alien? I'm now picturing a dark skinned grey with with curly hair and a beard. ;P



It's funny because many people when they think of the image of jesus they interpret it as the catholic symbol of the white average height average build father figure type with the beard and long hair. More realistically Jesus was black and according to other scriptures that have been removed from the bible he was probably married as well. Who really knows...

Also just because life exists elsewhere doesn't mean God has any pact with them. After all how could our egos ever justify not being Gods only creation. I only went as far to say that they are attempting to explain other life forms existence, much like they have done for the rest of the life on earth, it has always existed to be in service of us the supreme chosen people... or something, like I really phucking remember or even want to anymore.


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## dusttrust (Mar 4, 2011)

Britt Mathis said:


> Knowing that digital space is a real issue these days I decided to be economical and provide *two* paradoxes for your debating enjoyment at the storage cost of one!
> 
> Okay, sarcasm aside; First, *The Grandfather Paradox*:
> 
> ...


For the grandfather paradox: Supposedly, because a single photon can't travel faster than the speed of light, time travel is impossible. Time Travel Impossible, Say Scientists : Discovery News for more information.

I think we would need to understand our world's physic better to be able to find the unlitmate answer to your question.


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## ALNF1031 (Jul 27, 2011)

Backwards time travel is still theoretically impossible, but forward time travel is quite easy in theory it seems. You just need to go _really_ fast.


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

Alddous1031 said:


> Backwards time travel is still theoretically impossible, but forward time travel is quite easy in theory it seems. You just need to go _really_ fast.


Or be near a source of gravity.


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## ALNF1031 (Jul 27, 2011)

Einstein said:


> Or be near a source of gravity.


Isn't anything a source of gravity?


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

NotSoRighteousRob said:


> It's funny because many people when they think of the image of jesus they interpret it as the catholic symbol of the white average height average build father figure type with the beard and long hair. More realistically Jesus was black and according to other scriptures that have been removed from the bible he was probably married as well. Who really knows...
> 
> Also just because life exists elsewhere doesn't mean God has any pact with them. After all how could our egos ever justify not being Gods only creation. I only went as far to say that they are attempting to explain other life forms existence, much like they have done for the rest of the life on earth, it has always existed to be in service of us the supreme chosen people... or something, like I really phucking remember or even want to anymore.


We aren't 'his only creation' (if 'he created' anything). Animals. Remember? :tongue:

Really, who's to say that a god didn't create us and other beings. Who's to say the capital G God didn't create other beings. They wouldn't necessarily have to fall under the same 'curse' that humans did (and therefore wouldn't necessarily require Jesus)

This is logically possible if we _assume_ that the creation story is true (just syntactically for sake of argument. I'm not talking about truth or not)

It would seem reasonable that if God is real and The Bible written by men but divinely inspired is valid, it might possibly only pertain to us and our world and not need to mention beings from other mortal worlds.

Heck, maybe even we can't find them because God is protecting them from _us_.


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## Einstein (Aug 10, 2011)

Alddous1031 said:


> Isn't anything a source of gravity?


Anything with mass. Gravity has the same affect on time as acceleration. The faster you go, the slower time goes.


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## dusttrust (Mar 4, 2011)

Alddous1031 said:


> Backwards time travel is still theoretically impossible, but forward time travel is quite easy in theory it seems. You just need to go _really_ fast.


in fact when you go faster time slows down.


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## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

NotSoRighteousRob said:


> More realistically Jesus was black and according to other scriptures that have been removed from the bible he was probably married as well. Who really knows...


Jesus was (supposed to) be a Jew. My recollection is that around 1 BC/AD, Jews were still exclusively an ethnic group. They weren't white, but they weren't black either.


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