# What are the MOST TRUSTWORTHY personality types? least? based on your life experience



## curiousel (Jan 3, 2010)

List 3 for the MOST TRUSTWORTHY and 3 for the LEAST TRUSTWORTHY.


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## Tacos (May 10, 2010)

There isnt a more or less trustworthy type... MBTI doesnt define all the personnality, only generalizes it.


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## Lucretius (Sep 10, 2009)

Hmm...most trustworthy would probably be ISFJ, ISTJ, and ESFJ.
Least...INFP, INTP, ENTP.

I'm kind of using trustworthy in the sense of "dependable."
If we're talking about like...keeping secrets, then I don't have any idea. :blushed:


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

Most...ISTP & ISTJ
Least...INTP


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## parallel (Aug 18, 2009)

Most: ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP.
Least: ESFP, ESFJ, ESTP.


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## thewindlistens (Mar 12, 2009)

I find SP types to be the most screw-you-over-behind-your-back, but maybe that's just me.


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## tskim (Mar 2, 2010)

ISTJs are the most trustworthy and the least I'd say would be INTP.


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## Seventree (Jan 12, 2010)

I would of thought INFP are the most generous and giving and would be trusted in that respect. Though I have found when INFP trust goes they flake out and what others see as lack of trust is in fact our strategy to stop others taking advantage of our goodwill. For instance my INTJ brother, I would help him endlessly in the past, the most dependable person there couldn't have ever been. Then all of a sudden I stop and he wonders why. Because he now expects me to help him for every ridiculous little thing that he thinks up, demands it in fact. When I help him once, its like a foot in the door, then he demands ten times more than I am willing to give. So then I close the door slowly because he has started to take advantage of my generosity. Then he cries foul when I don't help him, but forgets when the shoe turns the other cheek he is reluctant to help me and hence I don't trust him to be dependable and rarely ask, the same with my father.

I've noticed this with my ESFJ friend too, he got to know me, as soon as he did he asked me to help him move like good friends do using the van I had. It was too soon and I chose to rather not be friends with him after.

Couldn't say, need a wider statistical group to decide. However I would trust NF/NT more than SF/ST only because I am less sensory minded and intuitives would understand my flow of conversations better. Then again my best friends are SF/ST so that's silly right there. :tongue:


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## daedaln (May 24, 2010)

Tacos said:


> There isnt a more or less trustworthy type... MBTI doesnt define all the personnality, only generalizes it.


Got to agree with this. It depends on the individual. Also depends on how you define trustworthiness - keeping a secret, being honest, reliable, responsible, dependable? 

Vague.


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## thewindlistens (Mar 12, 2009)

Yeah, I seriously hate threads like this. We need to define what everyone means, people are talking about different concepts using the same word.


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## Linnifae (Nov 13, 2009)

Well I took "trustworthy" to mean, loyal, able to tell secrets to, know that they mean what they say and don't play mind games.....


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

I thought about this and can't really get to a conclusion to base trustworthiness on type only. How trustable you are and how much you´re able to trust others, depends too much on life experiences, I think especially experiences when you were a kid.

Also, everyone has his own definition of the word "trust" and often depending on the situation, it means something different. Trust in a relationship for example does not have the same meaning as it does at work. Trusting somebody with a task is different from trusting somebody to be your partner for life.

Everybody will respond based on some version of trust, but we don't really know of course. Better to asking the question what "trust" means for different types and compare definitions based on types.


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## Scruffy (Aug 17, 2009)

The ISTP friend of mine is bar far the most trustworthy friend I have, but he usually fucks over other people. It's all about earning their respect and loyalty, he will not fuck me over.

INFPs are pretty trustworthy, but they seem to let things slip on accident.

ISTJs are sneakier in some ways, more so than people think. I used to have a habit of underestimating them, I do not anymore.


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## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

lateralus said:


> Most: ISTJ, INFJ, ISTP.
> Least: ESFP, ESFJ, ESTP.


Can't trust an E, now can we?


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## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

Linnifae said:


> Well I took "trustworthy" to mean, loyal, able to tell secrets to, know that they mean what they say and don't play mind games.....


If it weren't for that last requirement I'd have said 'INTJ'.


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## parallel (Aug 18, 2009)

HannibalLecter said:


> Can't trust an E, now can we?


One of my best friends is ENFP and another is ESFP.


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## FearsomeCritter (Jan 14, 2010)

depends on the E.

ENFP - Sometimes... Depends on the individual. I could see myself trusting one.

ESFP - I've yet to find one i've trusted farther than i can throw them


I tend to be most trusting of INTJs, INFJs, and ISTPs


Also, HannibalLecter, i'm currently amused by the xfiles reference.


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## Citruss (Mar 25, 2011)

I trust INTPs, INTJs , INFPs & INFJs the most.


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm good at keeping secrets (I don't gossip), but I'm not good at commitment and loyalty. However, I hate lying and breaking promises. So, if I make a promise, I'm keeping it. The hard part is deciding if I actually want to make promise/commitment. 

From experience (these are people I know who have tested, except for the ENFJ)..
I trust an ISTJ, an ISFJ, an INFP, an INFJ, an ESTJ.
I don't trust an ENTP (possible ESTP), an ENFP, an ENFJ (blabber-mouth) and another INFP I know.


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## fouxdafafa (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm suprized people think ESFPs are untrustworthy. One of my best friends is an ESFP and you could seriously tell her anything. I could think of alot more untrustworthy types.


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## Sily (Oct 24, 2008)

Isfj, infp.


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## yesiknowbut (Oct 25, 2009)

Interesting discussion, but you're all missing the point. Someone is trustworthy if YOU place your trust in THEM. Since the act of placing trust comes from the individual, it is not the supposed holder of that trust that matters. So reframe the question: who do you, as individuals, feel most comfortable placing your trust in? I would argue that some types might be more trusting, and some less....and this has a bigger effect than the type in whom the trust is placed.

I trust people who I know care about me. I know that they might keep MY secrets, but might be very lax with people they care less about. They could be any type. Recently I have been placing trust a fair bit, in confidence about personal issues affecting my work. I have been careful who I have confided in. Thus far I have been grateful for the ESFJ, the INTJ and the ISTJ. I haven't confided in the ENTJ. This is not about their type per se but the importance that they would give to my issues compared with their own.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

alfreda said:


> Interesting discussion, but you're all missing the point. Someone is trustworthy if YOU place your trust in THEM. Since the act of placing trust comes from the individual, it is not the supposed holder of that trust that matters. So reframe the question: who do you, as individuals, feel most comfortable placing your trust in? I would argue that some types might be more trusting, and some less....and this has a bigger effect than the type in whom the trust is placed.
> 
> I trust people who I know care about me. I know that they might keep MY secrets, but might be very lax with people they care less about. They could be any type. Recently I have been placing trust a fair bit, in confidence about personal issues affecting my work. I have been careful who I have confided in. Thus far I have been grateful for the ESFJ, the INTJ and the ISTJ. I haven't confided in the ENTJ. This is not about their type per se but the importance that they would give to my issues compared with their own.


Hmm, well, I think when I say someone is trustworthy, what I mean is that the person has certain qualities that make him or her deserve to be trusted because s/he will not betray anyone, not that I merely subjectively consider the person any certain way, which is a separate issue. I can trust anyone, but that doesn't make the person trustworthy. If a person I thought was trustworthy turned out not to be, and betrayed someone, it would just mean that I guessed wrong, and s/he wasn't actually worthy of the trust. Likewise, I could fail to trust someone who is trustworthy, and it just means I am being overly cautious. My level of suspicion does not determine someone else's trust*worthiness*. That person is the only one who can choose to act in ways that make him/her deserve trust.

A person who is only trustworthy for certain people, but who lies to everyone else, is probably not objectively trustworthy.


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## kiwigrl (Apr 27, 2010)

I agree with the other posters, I have had experience with alot of ISxJs. They are very trustworthy and most would take a secret to their grave. I think that perhaps Introverted thinkers just can't see the point of spilling someone else's secrets.

Least? Well I have known the 2 ESFPs in my life to relish knowing things and they can't wait to tell someone the secret so not them for secrets. However they mean well.


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## Dental Floss Tycoon (Apr 4, 2011)

We're talking about the stereotypes, right? I mean, I can say INFJs are generally extremely trustworthy, still I may have friends who are other types and trust them my life. However, I could say that by what I use to see from people of some specific types are generally not trustworthy. For instance, I have some serious issues with type 3 people (ESTPs and ESTJs in general). But that doesn't mean I'll discard the possibility of really trusting someone who's ESTP or ESTJ.


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## marzipan01 (Jun 6, 2010)

I trust every type and every person to do what they will naturally do but P's can be fairly unpredictable especially from a J perspective. Trustworthy as in someone who won't tell your secrets: ISTP. But I'm an ENFp. Trust them as in predict them? No, can't predict them. Case in point...just found a motorcycle in the garage. ISTPs I tell you. hahaha.


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## Monkey King (Nov 16, 2010)

ENFJ and ESTP. 

Usually, I test people anyway so I can at least gauge the level of their ability to keep their mouths zipped. Usually, when I do this--- I tell them something I would not mind being told to another but would prefer it be kept secret. And if slippage happens, that's usually means gameover in the trust department. 

An INFJ slipped once but that was because she thought she was doing me a favor. We fixed that mentality--- and she seems to understand my perspective enough to keep it shut when it's about a certain someone. 

I'd vote for ENTJs as trustworthy. But that's just a bias. I've either kept all the secrets that I've been told OR have forgotten them >_>. It's really surprising though, sometimes people I don't feel remotely close to tell me things that make me think, "Are we that close already?"


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## Romascu (Apr 27, 2011)

Aila8 said:


> ENFJ and ESTP.
> 
> _Usually, I test people anyway so I can at least gauge the level of their ability to keep their mouths zipped. Usually, when I do this--- I tell them something I would not mind being told to another but would prefer it be kept secret. And if slippage happens, that's usually means gameover in the trust department. _
> 
> "


 I do that too.


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## fouxdafafa (Mar 20, 2011)

Based on my experiences with my own friends:

Most: ISTJ,ENTJ, ESFP, INTJ, ESTJ
Least: INFJ, ISFJ(can't keep a secret to save their lives)

Obviously everyone will have different experiences because trust and MBTI aren't exactly linked..


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

curiousel said:


> List 3 for the MOST TRUSTWORTHY and 3 for the LEAST TRUSTWORTHY.


I think this could almost best be answered by the 4 base personality types: Keirsey's Idealists, Utilitarians, Architects, and Guardians.

Idealists and Guardians (NFs and SJs) are, on a whole, trustworthy as they value cooperation and harmony.

Utilitarians and Architects (NTs and SPs) are, on the whole, untrustworthy as they are, by and large, out for themselves.

Beyond this, I think it would depend greatly upon the experiences and connectivity of the individual of a given type. ENFJs are intensely loyal, so if you've befriended one, I don't know if you could find a more trustworthy person. INTJs (think Sheldon from "Big Bang Theory") are driven by almost pure logic and are often baffled by other people who expect them to be loyal, or to act altruistically, especially when they don't see any immediate benefit for themselves. In general, they don't care WHAT happens to others, whether you know them or not, so I would never ever ever trust an INTJ. That being said, some people trust INTJs when it comes to making decisions because they are driven by pure logic. Some would say their judgement, then, is trustworthy.

My mom, an ISFJ, was honest to a fault and could be trusted with anything at any time. She absolutely c-o-u-l-d n-o-t l-i-e. Even when we were dealing with car dealerships, trying to get the best price, when I found a better price for the same vehicle at a different dealership and convinced her buying it for the lower price was the right thing to do for her family, she expressed her feelings of guilt for weeks and who knows how long after that she continued to feel guilty, and that was with a car dealership!!! OTOH, I've known other ISFJs who lied outright about who they were as a person just to get close to me. She did it because she knew if she told me the truth, I wouldn't want to enter into a relationship with her. She was just following her heart and I couldn't blame her for that, but even with the same personality type as my "I cannot tell a lie" mother, she was nowhere near as trustworthy.

My sister is an ESFP and I don't even trust her to protect and take care of her own daughter. The father of my niece is an ENTP, and as charming as he can be, he is out for himself and only himself at all times, every minute, every second. Even when he had me somewhat convinced he was going to help me out, he ended up robbing my house while I was in the hospital (yes, he was caught and served jail time).

I don't know many other NFs... I know a few, but in my experiences with one of them, I found a woman who, despite promising me over and over she would do XYZ, or call at XX:YY, regularly flaked, forgot, etc... I still trust her not to intentionally hurt me, I don't trust her at all to do what she says she'll do.

Hmmm... in reading this over, perhaps there are individual types which are more or less trustworthy than others, but the answer I'd give would be based upon my personal experiences with those people which is not necessarily the case with all others of a given type. 

I would make the preceding paragraph be my caveat in answering this...

Most Trustworthy: ISFJs, ENFJs, ENFPs
Least trustworthy: INTJs, ESFPs, ENTPs.

I almost think you could look at particular letters and see how they would or would not reflect upon how trustworthy someone is. I think, with a few exceptions, Ps and Ts would tend to be less trustworthy, while the opposites, Js and Fs would tend to be more trustworthy. Why? Well, Ps like to keep their options open, prefer not to be tied down or have schedules. This makes them more spontaneous by nature, and the more spontaneous someone is, the less predictable, and the less predictable, the less you can trust you know what they'll do. Their opposites, Js, like schedules, like things planned out, thus are more predictable, hence more easily trusted. Fs tend to be guided by their feelings which means they might, in general, care about the feelings of others. T's use logic, and logic can be used to rationalize screwing over other people, thus, I would think they would tend to be less trustworthy.

Of course, this is all just opinion and conjecture. I know I didn't answer it precisely the way you asked and I apologize for that. I didn't mean to go off on some diatribe, but once I got started I couldn't stop. Um, oops. 

Skol!


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

alfreda said:


> Interesting discussion, but you're all missing the point. Someone is trustworthy if YOU place your trust in THEM.


OH MY I strongly disagree with this statement. Someone is trustworthy if they live up to their trust. As has been said in other posts, ENFJs take chances and will go out on a limb and give people the benefit of the doubt because, well, that's the way we're built. We want to see the best in other people. We idealize relationships to a SERIOUS fault. It's one of our greatest flaws! Just because we gave someone a chance and put trust in them, does not make them WORTHY of that trust. They become WORTHY of that trust when they live up to their word. I'll be the first to admit ENFJs will give the benefit of the doubt and give a person the opportunity to prove they are trustworthy by trusting them. However, many MANY people in whom I've placed my trust were not at ALL trustworthy.

I understand where you're coming from though. I think it may be a semantic issue, in that you may believe people will only trust others when they feel them worthy of it. When it comes to people who are always just trying to see the best in others, and trying to do the right thing by giving people a 2nd, 3rd, even 4th and 5th chances, they put trust in people who have proven not at ALL worthy of another's trust. I think perhaps for Utilitarians (NTs) what you're saying might hold true, but for Idealists it is blatantly inaccurate.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Chief said:


> I think this could almost best be answered by the 4 base personality types: Keirsey's Idealists, Utilitarians, Architects, and Guardians.
> 
> Idealists and Guardians (NFs and SJs) are, on a whole, trustworthy as they value cooperation and harmony.
> 
> Utilitarians and Architects (NTs and SPs) are, on the whole, untrustworthy as they are, by and large, out for themselves.


I like how you put that, and from your NF point of view, that actually makes sense. From my NT point of view however, you couldn't be more wrong. I would say this:

NT's and SJ's: Trustworthy because they are direct and to the point. They are predictable. (in other words, you can know what to expect.)

NF's and SP's: Untrustworthy as their main focus is on them selves. They do value cooperation and harmony, but only with those that they like. They are not very predictable. (in other words, don't be surprised if their behavior sometimes makes no sense.)


Trust is subjective and depends on point of view. In the end it's best to mix trust with a good dose of realism.


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## PAdude (Mar 18, 2011)

I've found ISTJ's, INTJ's, and ISTP's to be extremely trustworthy when it comes to confiding in them or completing duties but not overly trustworthy when it comes to making plans.

INFP's, INTP's, and ENFP's seem to be very trustworthy in honoring plans that are easy to carry out but not necessarily in fulfilling duties.

ENTP's are incredibly trustworthy overall but tend to prioritize in an odd, unpredictable manner and thus may not be on the same page as you on the importance of a task or subject unless it is clearly discussed.

This is purely my experience though.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Peter said:


> I like how you put that, and from your NF point of view, that actually makes sense. From my NT point of view however, you couldn't be more wrong. I would say this:
> 
> NT's and SJ's: Trustworthy because they are direct and to the point. They are predictable. (in other words, you can know what to expect.)
> 
> ...


No doubt truth is subjective. I should note I'm an ENXJ with strong ENFJ leanings, so there's definitely the logical, analytical part of me, but I strongly disagree with NF's being about themselves. In fact, Keirsey talks about how ENFJs are ALL about other people and giving to others. How is that being about ourselves?

What I wrote re: the 4 basic groups comes directly from Keirsey. You DID read the rest of the post, right?

When one is out for oneself, and cares little about what happens to others (Characteristics Briggs-Myers AND Keirsey, Jung, Aristotle, Socrates, I can go on, ALL agreed were endemic to the NT and SP), one cannot be trusted.

I think you're mixing up predictability with trustworthiness. NTs certainly don't care about others. My brother and father are/were NTs both, and neither of them ever gave a damn what happened to anyone but themselves. This allowed them to say one thing and do another if new information pointed them towards a different direction which would benefit them more than the promises they already made. In fact, of all types, NTs care MOST about themselves, least about others, and are ALL about themselves. The main focus of the NT and SP are themselves, and this isn't coming from an opinion, it's coming from every text I've ever read on the MB/Keirsey/Jungian typologies (at LEAST 10, with Keirsey still being my favorite).

I suppose you could argue that I TRUST the NTs to do whatever is their own self-interest. This, to me, makes them UNtrustworthy. I may be able to predict what they'll do in a given situation, but I have no clue if they'll end up screwing me over or backing me up. My brother, a SEVERE INTJ, can be "trusted" to lie, cheat, and steal if it's in his best interest. He's magnificently forgetful when it's convenient. When I talk to my students about INTJs, I point them to Sheldon from the "Big Bang Theory." Again, understand I do have some NT leanings (as, in business/work, I'm Keirsey's FieldMarshall, M/B's Executive). To me however, OTHER people are everything. When I said SJs and NFs value cooperation and harmony, I meant with OTHER PEOPLE! How in the world you've come up with NFs as being focused upon themselves is beyond me. NFs are, both in texts, and in my experience, all about others.

In truth, I think this really comes down to semantics, as I said above. I don't equate predicability with trustworthiness. I mean, you can very well predict what ALL types will do if you know them well enough. You can predict an SJ will always do what society wants them to do. You can predict NFs will do whatever most benefits the people around them. You can predict NTs will do whatever most benefits themselves, and predict SPs will be utterly unpredictable.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Pseudonimum said:


> We're talking about the stereotypes, right? I mean, I can say INFJs are generally extremely trustworthy, still I may have friends who are other types and trust them my life. However, I could say that by what I use to see from people of some specific types are generally not trustworthy. *For instance, I have some serious issues with type 3 people (ESTPs and ESTJs in general).* But that doesn't mean I'll discard the possibility of really trusting someone who's ESTP or ESTJ.


Are you saying ESTPs are usually type 3 in the enneagram? I've noticed that ESTPs are predominantly 7s and 8s. You can even check @Wake's thread in the ESTP section.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

PAdude said:


> I've found ISTJ's, INTJ's, and ISTP's to be extremely trustworthy when it comes to confiding in them or completing duties but not overly trustworthy when it comes to making plans.
> 
> INFP's, INTP's, and ENFP's seem to be very trustworthy in honoring plans that are easy to carry out but not necessarily in fulfilling duties.
> 
> ...


Your experience, FWIW, fits extremely well with what's written. I noticed the ones you mentioned as trustworthy to confide in were all introverts, people who generally do not seek out contact with others. It only follows they're more likely to be quiet when it comes to what you've told them. Note, however, an INTJ will betray you in a New York second if the opportunity comes to them and it benefits them to do so. 

NFPs (and P's in general for that matter) tend to be great starters of projects, but HORRID finishers. Just as the Introvert is key to being trusted with something you tell them,the key to your experiences with the second group can be traced to the P in all of them. Non-schedulers, or oPtions oPen people are least comfortable when something is finished, a decision made, thus you're dead on in finding them untrustworthy when it comes to fulfilling duties (I read that as finishing their job... I can only guess that's what you meant as well).

Not for nothing, but a direct quote from Keirsey states "The ENFJ is the most trustworthy of all personality types." We're apparently more rare than even *I* thought from what I've been reading on here, but it would take serious threats of armageddon and the end of mankind to get me to betray someone who has put their trust in me. I honestly, *honestly*, do not mean that to sound conceited. I'm merely stating the way I guard the confidences of others, and what's been written in text after text.


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

Fizz said:


> Are you saying ESTPs are usually type 3 in the enneagram? I've noticed that ESTPs are predominantly 7s and 8s. You can even check @Wake's thread in the ESTP section.


Ya, Se = 7 basically. They characterize the function specifically geared towards 7's it seems. bottom graph here shows ESTP is 7-heavy also w/ a decent amount of 8's.

The bottom graph at this site seems to be the most dependable of all that I've been shown: Type Correlations


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## PAdude (Mar 18, 2011)

@_Chief_ I do not know any ENFJ's in real life, at least not yet to my knowledge (though there is a chance that my mom is one). My experience with ENTP's might be unique because I'm mostly basing it off of my one friend. He is extremely trustworthy to confide in and generally trustworthy when it comes to making plans but sometimes when things clearly aren't set in stone he has a strange and unpredictable way of prioritizing things. I also have found INFJ's to be easy to confide in and great at giving advice.

In my experience, ENTJ's mean well but tend not to think as deeply as the other "confide" types that I posted and can also be a trainwreck with scheduling. Two of my best friends are ENTJ but they can occassionally get on my nerves (especially the one who is basically still controlled by his mom at 19 and puts up with it completely).

My ISTJ friend, though great to confide in, often declines plans for seemingly illogical reasons. Like my friends and I will be doing something that we know he would enjoy yet he'll choose to stay home and do an hour of homework or housework even though he will easily have time to do that later in the day.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Chief said:


> NTs certainly don't care about others.


Typist bullshit ftw.


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## Mei (Feb 5, 2011)

Chief said:


> I think this could almost best be answered by the 4 base personality types: Keirsey's Idealists, Utilitarians, Architects, and Guardians.
> 
> Idealists and Guardians (NFs and SJs) are, on a whole, trustworthy as they value cooperation and harmony.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Well, let me share my experiences then.

I personally prefer NT, as I find them to be direct, and most trustworthy. You either take it or leave it. Keep the honor of the contract or not at all. Then NFs, and then SF...and maybe then ST ? (I don't think I have met an ST before. I need to search and quantify more.) 

To me, NTs are trustworthy because they listen to you. Extract info. Then deliver in a non-biased way. Not biased to any individual's relationship. Not influenced by anyone's decision. Just logical. Saying this, I have also been subjected to this kind of scrutiny whereby NTs will add their comments and faulted individuals out of jobs (!) 

SJ may be people orientated, and they don't ask and do things for you. However, I have also come across members in my families whereby the SF just do things and stomp all over me, cos they think that without asking for individuals' opinions, then this is accepted? This went as far as taking other people's things. Demanding, and placing high expectations on others, or else they themselves will cry wolves on you reputation. Therefore spreading gossips, and really bring your reputation down. It soothes their egos alright, but in doing so, it brings back karma into our lives. Upsets my mother. Blame her kid as being bad and crap. Demoralise individuals and people. Bad mouth others. Their authoritarian, and "using others" mentality is WAY too much. I used to be okay, and worked for SJs even without asking, but then years down the line when I am in dire trouble and I ask for this to be returned, their words were "times have moved on" ? "Grow up". "Get on with your own life". What the hell ? An NT will NEVER do that. In fact, if it was not for the NT in our family, my SF bro and his stupid SF wife would have brought down the whole family into financial troubles cos of their status chasing. My NT Dad was right, and he was indeed maybe a tad selfish in the eyes of my mother, but he was very adamant in wanting his own kid to stand up on his own two feet, and live a very honorable life. My SF brother was not able to do this without dependencies on other individuals for financial support, or whatever. His doing so, brought down so many people around him. Are NTs truly selfish ??? Really ? The NTs in my life are empire building, and they think things through. 


SJ do sometimes act without any regards for other peoples' individual right as a human. This is how much I hate my SJs in my families. Cos they do all this in the supposed name of "tradition". Their own social status. Yeh, right. If they follow tradition, then they themselves have wronged others SO many times. Nobody pulled them up on it. Yet, in their own words, "we make mistakes". Well, you know what? NTs do not MAKE mistakes. Even if they make mistakes, then they quickly find a solution to deal with it. Themselves! Not like SF who has to then rely on others both in financial terms, or in manual labour terms, and it affect other people's livelihoods too. They are selfish in this regard. NFs do not make mistakes cos they do think things through! 


However, with an NT, they will negotiate, say it out loud, and discuss and admit their own wrongs. SJs will NEVER admit to their own faults... This is their downfalls. I also don't like the way SJs lack future planning, and when they are in deep poo, they expect others to provide time, finance to pull themselves out of their deep holes. As much as anyone may hate NF for thinking too much, at least they stop to think before they do, rather than they do, jump into deep ends, and then get stuck and rely on others having to give up their own things to then help them. 


Trustworthiness ? Some people don't and can't be trusted. It would be great to find individuals who are indeed magnanimous, and also work hard, and also respect others. I think these individuals deserve the title of true trustworthiness... 


[Added] To give this thing some perspective, I am talking about individuals and cases over a whole 20 year period of time... some of the types and how their behaviours are come out quite true during situations in life. You can say some were under-developed or true to their own type when under stress. Individuals will cause others harm in ways that they would never have considered, especially when a person is growing up and are thinking of their own Ego as you do at that time. Individuals who are born and think and work in an inter-dependent way are quite rare.

*Chief*: I just wanted to say this much. The character Sheldon in the Big Bang theory is fictional. It is an extreme version of a particular type. The real life NTs that I have encountered, my own dad, brother, even now my brother in law, my uni friend... are all NTs... and they are all quite honorable in their way of life. You may find them standoffish, not socially quite interactive, but once they understand the actual context, reasons, and feelings, then do not doubt that they won't be there for you. Some of the loyalties are of no bounds. One thing I find of interest from my NT brother is that, he is very specific to those whom have indeed helped him in the past, especially one or two of our uncle who did really supported my family. He is still very loyal to them, despite the auntie taking hits at me. I took that hit, and swallowed this kind of untruths for social harmony, and I get told off from my own mother, just to preserve someone's ego. (Maybe this is what is making me so screwed up as an individual.) At the same time, there are guidelines as to the scope and extension of that help one can provide realistically. I know for certain that my NT brother won't help those who is outside of his own responsibilities. By duty, he is tied to numerous entities where he lives, and he isn't likely to help those other extended families whom he cannot help, and he is not a part of their circle. Do you see what I mean in terms of not necessarily selfish ?


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Most trustworthy, me, the other me, and the other me.

Least trustworthy, me, the other me, and the other me.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Mei said:


> Interesting. Well, let me share my experiences then.
> 
> I personally prefer NT, as I find them to be direct, and most trustworthy. You either take it or leave it. Keep the honor of the contract or not at all. Then NFs, and then SF...and maybe then ST ? (I don't think I have met an ST before. I need to search and quantify more.)


The ST is not one of the four key groups. When it comes to Sensors, the defining letter is the last, either P or J.



Mei said:


> To me, NTs are trustworthy because they listen to you. Extract info. Then deliver in a non-biased way. Not biased to any individual's relationship. Not influenced by anyone's decision. Just logical.


Well, logical and self-serving, and only logical to them. What is logical to them may not be logical to other types. If it serves the utilitarian to use you and abuse you, they will. If they can legally screw you over and it benefits them, they will do so. Some of the NT subtypes require it be fair and just to screw you over before they do so, but make no mistake, all NTs will do so if it benefits them to do so. As I've said elsewhere, I do have some NT facets myself (I initially tested ENXJ, or half ENTJ), so when I speak in general about them, I speak about myself. There are situations where it's been legal and self-serving to screw another person in business situations in my life (business is the only place where I'm more ENTJ than ENFJ), and so I would do it--but only if, in my mind, it was the fair and just thing to do (that is, I was screwed over by that person at an earlier juncture, OR, that person's actions so egregiously harm others and/or the business itself). 



Mei said:


> SJ may be people orientated, and they don't ask and do things for you.


Then you're not dealing with true SJs. As Guardians, SJs find specific duty in serving others, being cooperative, treasuring harmony. If doing things for someone will make them happy, you can pretty much count on Idealists (NFs) and Guardians (SJs) to do it, at least as the texts state. As you are neither an S nor a J, I can understand why you may find these people distasteful, but what I wrote about them comes directly from the academic works on these types, not from my opinion.



Mei said:


> However, I have also come across members in my families whereby the SF just do things and stomp all over me,


Again, the S and F are not interrelated in the four basic groups. There are only four basic groups: NTs, NFs, SPs, and SJs.



Mei said:


> cos they think that without asking for individuals' opinions, then this is accepted? This went as far as taking other people's things. Demanding, and placing high expectations on others, or else they themselves will cry wolves on you reputation. Therefore spreading gossips, and really bring your reputation down. It soothes their egos alright, but in doing so, it brings back karma into our lives. Upsets my mother. Blame her kid as being bad and crap. Demoralise individuals and people. Bad mouth others. Their authoritarian, and "using others" mentality is WAY too much. I used to be okay, and worked for SJs even without asking, but then years down the line when I am in dire trouble and I ask for this to be returned, their words were "times have moved on" ? "Grow up". "Get on with your own life". What the hell ? An NT will NEVER do that. In fact, if it was not for the NT in our family, my SF bro and his stupid SF wife would have brought down the
> whole family into financial troubles cos of their status chasing. My NT Dad was right, and he was indeed maybe a tad selfish in the eyes of my mother, but he was very adamant in wanting his own kid to stand up on his own two feet, and live a very honorable life. My SF brother was not able to do this without dependencies on other individuals for financial support, or whatever. His doing so, brought down so many people around him. Are NTs truly selfish ??? Really ? The NTs in my life are empire building, and they think things through.


Yes, really. I really can't stress enough how, when it comes to the sensor, the important factor is whether they're a J or a P. Whether they're feelers or thinkers is seriously irrelevant. From what you've written above, I could only venture a guess as to whether the people you were dealing with were SPs (Keirsey's Architect) or SJs (Keirsey's Guardians). SJs in certain combinations can be very authoritarian. They are the rule enforcers of the world, and for we NFs, those rules sometimes don't make sense. Certain SJs make me absolutely bristle! with their doctrine and thinking in absolutes relative to THEIR morality and THEIR idea of what society should be (e.g. labeling an 18 year old who has had sex with their 17 year 364 day old mate a sex offender, forcing them to register for the rest of their lives). The vast majority of strict Christians fall under the SJ temperament. Note, when I'm saying these things, I'm referring to the classic texts on the temperaments, not just spouting my opinion. According to Briggs-Myers, Briggs, Goldsmith, Baron, Tieger, Keirsey (and on and on) these are the defining traits of, again, the FOUR BASIC TYPES, and those are only SPs, SJs, NTs, and NFs. There is no text, no study I've ever found which speaks specifically to those who are SF or ST. I would certainly welcome reading any such studies if you can cite them. On the rare occasion an NT comes to someone's rescue, they are doing it because they believe they will benefit from it (or, in the example I use below, the business will benefit and my life would be less stressful for it, and that's the motivating factor driving the action). NTs in general (and that's key, we're talking in generalities here) will go only as far as they are required to in order to help another and not a step further. When it comes to business (where I'm an NT), I neither hesitate nor feel the least bit of contrition in firing someone *if* they are unproductive, regardless of how many hungry children they have at home, but then being fair and just is one of the most defining, base attributes of my personality. I have zero respect for those who are unfair, unjust. How does that relate to firing someone? Well, if someone isn't doing their job, it is unfair to all of those who ARE doing their job to continue to pay that person who isn't (and this is where the ENFJ and ENTJ in me argue and bitch at one another  ). Unless the only person one is harming in being unjust and unfair is oneself, you must necessarily harm another to be merciful and warm-hearted. As an example, let's think of a rapist or murderer (or any other crime which significantly injures another). Being merciful and warm-hearted towards that offender is being merciLESS and COLD-hearted towards the offended, but I digress...



Mei said:


> SJ do sometimes act without any regards for other peoples' individual right as a human.


Unquestionably!! A good example of this is the right wing religious wrong (my term for the "religious right"). These people go out of their way to inform on others even when it may not really be "the right thing" to do, yet they will do so if they believe it will benefit society as a whole (even if it won't). SJs are the ones who are the rule-enforcers in society. The problem with them is they, IMO, are overly harsh, often unfair as they follow a strict doctrine. SJs are more likely to be Anti-Choice than any other basic type, more likely to bomb abortion clinics, lie to women and tell them they'll support them and give them money if they have the child, only to abandon them once they have the child. ARGH! It drives me up a wall!! My mom, the defining SJ in my life, slapped me as a teenager simply for having a girl in my room, without any type of warning, without telling me it was not permitted. That being said, there is nothing, NOTHING my Mom wouldn't do for me or any of her children. She was an ISFJ (so, basic type of SJ). She was absolutely overly harsh and authoritarian, IMO, early on in my life. It was only after reading multiple texts and studying human behavior to the degree I have I understood just WHY she was that way.



Mei said:


> This is how much I hate my SJs in my families. Cos they do all this in the supposed name of "tradition".Their own social status.


Absolutely true! SJs are the classic traditionalists! However, when it comes to whether you can trust someone like that to do what they feel will bring harmony and peace, and stay true to their word, keep your confidences when they understand what you've told them is in strict confidence, BECAUSE they are so traditional, they would not be able to stand the backlash if they failed you in that aspect. That's the way in which I believe they are trustworthy. Where an NT will screw you to serve themselves ( in business, they consider the business to be an extension of themselves, thus will serve the business and not really care about the individual--unless of course that individual is endemic to the success of the business, in which case they help themselves by helping that person), the SJ will try to find you help. Why? Because they would feel society would judge them negatively for firing someone, regardless of how useless and/or messed up that employee is. Where an NT would sell their own mother to the highest bidder were it legal and they poor (SPs, incidentally, will do the same thing), an SJ could never hurt someone in their family or someone they're close to, at least not on purpose. Though I agree they are often misguided, IMO, they are also very caring regarding how people in general are treated. They are the Guardians... guardians of both societies traditions and morals and guardians of their friends and relatives. I know I've said this already, but I want to be certain I'm understood... When I speak of the approaches of each of the four basic types, I'm doing so directly from the academic works. When I do insert my opinion, you can be certain you'll see an "IMO" within the statement.



Mei said:


> Well, you know what? NTs do not MAKE mistakes. Even if they make mistakes, then they quickly find a solution to deal with it.


I couldn't possibly disagree more. NTs make just as many mistakes as any other type. The difference is they don't care how their mistakes affect others, and when they do make mistakes, they suddenly have very conveniently faulty memories. My brother, an INTJ, used to, along with his friend, beat me senseless at the bus-stop. When I was threatened and bullied by others, he would join in before he would come to my rescue. Maybe you don't consider that to be "a mistake" and I know HE doesn't consider it a mistake, but because of it, and because of other completely self-serving actions on his part, he and I no longer talk. FWIW, his rationale is I was receiving more attention in the family and performing better academically, in sports, and with the opposite sex. In order to try to teach me a lesson, he bullied me, hoping I would "learn shining so brightly was bad" when in reality, he did so to try to force me to not try so hard so HE would look better. Note: when confronted with the fact he bullied me, never came to my aid in the way I believe brothers should, his answer when in front of others is "I don't remember." When confronted with it in private he answers "you deserved it." In many ways, NTs, in general, can be thought of as the type least capable of contrition (and again, when it comes to business, I DO fit that mold), with SPs a close second. How this can be thought of as anything BUT self-serving and selfish is beyond me. NTs argue: "Everyone is selfish. We just embrace it more completely." Whereas I agree all actions are inherently selfish, NFs feel better about themselves when they can help others, SJs feel best when they can uphold tradition and law, SPs feel best when they can best serve their own autonomy, and NTs feel best when they can best serve themselves. NFs and SJs inherently look to, in THEIR views, help others. NTs and SPs inherently look to serve their own best interest.



Mei said:


> Themselves! Not like SF who has to then rely on others both in financial terms, or in manual labour terms, and it affect other people's livelihoods too. They are selfish in this regard. NFs do not make mistakes cos they do think things through!


Yet again, an SF has no real defining line of thought. As an NF, I can tell you I most certainly make mistakes. I make TONS of them and know I will continue to do so for the rest of my life. Heck, you're an NF (as am I), and you have referred to some dreamed up types which are entirely unresearched and not recognized as one of the basic groups. How is that not making a mistake? I don't hold it against you, but if you believe "ST" or "SF" is one of the four basic types, you've made mistakes. Not that there's anything wrong with making mistakes. Again, I've been wrong before in my life (made mistakes) and I'll be wrong again. To deny one's ability to make a mistake is pure hubris.



Mei said:


> However, with an NT, they will negotiate, say it out loud, and discuss and admit their own wrongs.


The *hell* they will. *Some* of them will, *if* and if and when they do, they will do it precisely when it serves them best to do so. They will not do it for the benefit of anyone else, or to comfort another (unless, again, they perceive it would be serve themselves to do so, perhaps for monetary gain, or to reduce a prison sentence). If it serves them best to deny they were ever wrong, then they'll do that. They're self serving to an extreme. It's as defining a trait of an NT as being logical. My father, also an NT, never once in his life admitted to either me or any family member he was ever wrong. He never said "I'm sorry." He never said "I love you." My brother is the same way. My brother has never said "I'm sorry." He's never admitted to ever loving even our own mother (who was, the vast majority of the time, an absolutely AMAZING mother) or anyone else. Note, both were INTJs, of differing levels of intellect in different areas. (See Gardner's Theory of Multiple Intellects).



Mei said:


> SJs will NEVER admit to their own faults... This is their downfalls. I also don't like the way SJs lack future planning, and when they are in deep poo, they expect others to provide time, finance to pull themselves out of their deep holes.


Nonsense. I would invite other SJs to view this as I believe they will call bullsh*t on this as well. My mom freely admitted when she was wrong, but only when it was demonstrated to them how what they did harmed society, their family, tradition, etc... There is no type which either will or won't absolutely admit to making mistakes. What defines them is when and why they admit to making a mistake. An NF will admit to making a mistake if they feel they've wronged another person. An SJ will admit to it if they feel they've harmed their family, society, or their religion (see: all the televangelists who were caught being sexually deviant). NTs will admit to making a mistake when they will benefit for doing so. SPs will do so when it will increase their autonomy. This is all in the texts on these types. It's not my opinion, it's what the research has shown.



Mei said:


> *Chief*: I just wanted to say this much. The character Sheldon in the Big Bang theory is fictional.


Oh really? Gosh, and all this time I thought the Big Bang Theory was a reality show.;-)



Mei said:


> It is an extreme version of a particular type.


Not really. Sheldon is based on Chuck Lorre himself. Sheldon is a relatively standard INTJ, satirized for our entertainment. 



Mei said:


> The real life NTs that I have encountered, my own dad, brother, even now my brother in law, my uni friend... are all NTs... and they are all quite honorable in their way of life. You may find them standoffish, not socially quite interactive, but once they understand the actual context, reasons, and feelings, then do not doubt that they won't be there for you. Some of the loyalties are of no bounds. One thing I find of interest from my NT brother is that, he is very specific to those whom have indeed helped him in the past, especially one or two of our uncle who did really supported my family. He is still very loyal to them, despite the auntie taking hits at me. I took that hit, and swallowed this kind of untruths for social harmony, and I get told off from my own mother, just to preserve someone's ego. (Maybe this is what is making me so screwed up as an individual.) At the same time, there are guidelines as to the scope and extension of that help one can provide realistically. I know for certain that my NT brother won't help those who is outside of his own responsibilities. By duty, he is tied to numerous entities where he lives, and he isn't likely to help those other extended families whom he cannot help, and he is not a part of their circle. Do you see what I mean in terms of not necessarily selfish ?


Much of what you mention above has far more to do with the subtype of NT. Both ENT combinations can be quite engaging and outgoing, in fact usually are. They can be quite charming, even brilliant. INTs, obviously, are the standoffish, quiet types, but, I mean, that's obvious, isn't it? Certain parts of certain subtypes of NTs (ENTJs for me specifically, probably because I am partially one myself) I find quite honorable. The NT subtypes which value being fair and just I find to be absolutely honorable. It's the NT subtypes which don't I find to be fair and just I believe to be selfish assholes. That being said, even when NTs are fair and just, they are that way because it is self-serving. What I think you're missing is, in each of the four basic types, there is a common denominator, and that common denominator is their motivation. Every action by every person is selfish. Nobody thinks to themselves "this action is worse for me than another, so I'll do that." We all do whatever we feel is best for us at that point in time. We're also all, every type, mistaken in our actions at times.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

Good Lord! Chief likes to write.

The most trustworthy are ISFJs. The least trusthworthy: whatever my last two ex-girlfriends are.


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## Mei (Feb 5, 2011)

Well Chief, if you continually going to use what the "text" say then sorry....I don't buy it. I rather understand your take on it, or well... text is just text, cos the real life application can be so complex. When you live with someone, then you know them quite well. What makes people tick, and how you interact with each other and so forth. For me, I see that some of the decisions made by the SJs were absolutely pretty selfish. I can also see why my NT dad was judged so harshly. I can see why the S and the N never got on. I am of the age that I can understand my own family, and I do understand how people can be. Is it fate? Well... life is life isn't it ? 

Actually, when you wrote that comment about the NF, I actually do not buy it. Even though I myself is an INFP. We are idealists, but does not mean that we will be doormats for any stranger. You got to understand this point. We think of the ideal situation all the time cos it comes into our minds, but our ideal is only as good as what we expose ourselves to, and our experiences. Unfortunately. However, it really does not mean that we can rub all the egos that is necessary, or to solve all ills, or to provide financially for all concerned... cos surely each person has to deal with their own lives, and their own decisions too ? 

All I can say is that, any individual should indeed cherish those whom they feel have done well by them, and just neglect those who have not and move on. 

I think you are allowing your experience to cloud the NT type. Not all NTs can go to that kind of extreme. They are and can potentially be like that. Even my own NT dad could be like that. I know that he was a proud man too. Yet, he always cared for his own family. It does sound like your brother is a serious asshole. One day, he will indeed repent. He will. I just also remember all the regrets my father had at his own dying bed. Cos he did make a lot of mistakes in his own time, and he has felt regretful on those. . I noticed this and I realised this too. I was also a harsh INFP too. Cos I judged him, and I made sure I knew the answers even towards the end. I hope that you will also come to a resolution with your brother, and maybe even contemplate to forgive him. 

You do sound as harsh on your NT brother as I do on my SJ mother. lol. I am not going to drag out my own family's dirty laundry to be aired either. Cos I feel I will give them that bit of respect. In hindsight, I am also doing my own healing too, and to try and forgive her. To judge all other NTs with the same brush is indeed harsh. Hence why I specifically use my own SJs as examples only. Cos in truth, any SJs may differ in context and situation in various scenarios, so... I remembered that my NT brother was always so angry too. However,yet, until he see that others are not like himself, or that they are only human, he has and does mellow out in his old age ? People will change. Let's hope that well.. we all learn from others. 

Memory is a funny thing. This thread just kind of demonstrates how... we do have fears and insecurities. Cos we choose to wear a mask, and we choose who will protect us and our own Self from harm.

[Added] I know that your NT won't ever say those 3 words to you either, cos mine never did also. Yet, I knew he was proud of me by how he giggles incessantly in knowing that I delivered and achieved my degree. I think the pride in my NT dad was just... I don't know.. unsurmountable. He also very openly said in his dying bed all the secrets which he held within, and never expressed. I don't know what I can say to you, but I just hope that you don't judge your NT dad so harshly with your strong F. Cos they are definitely not NF. If it came so easily to them, then... they would be NFs, and not NTs. Judging each type by their own type values are the fairest way. You sound like you have a strong sense of harmony... gosh.. I am surprised. Seriously. lol. I have not met anyone like that for a long while, and I am supposed to be from "everyone is equal", kind of culture!


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## Neon Knight (Aug 11, 2010)

I'm sure my type has been shat on a lot on this thread and certainly has in my own section of the forum, and my only response is this: Doesn't have anything to do with type but has EVERYTHING to do with maturity and one's mental health.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

thewindlistens said:


> I find SP types to be the most screw-you-over-behind-your-back, but maybe that's just me.


Nope... definitely not just you. Though I find INTJs to be, on the whole, the most darn near sociopathic individuals (sociopathic in that they seem to lack a conscience. If they can justify it in their minds as beneficial to themselves, they will, as I put it in another post, sell their own mother), an SPs motivation is self-centered as well *and* they're flaky to boot. I'm certain you're not at all alone in finding that, of the four basic types, to be the least trustworthy. Goldsmith, Baron, and Keirsey all peg the SPs as both self-centered and extremely spontaneous, unlikely to keep plans.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Slider said:


> Good Lord! Chief likes to write.


ROFL... I'm not teaching this semester so have far too much time on my hands, but yes, I do indeed like to write. Actually, I like to teach and I do my absolute best to remain patient (and fail miserably on occasion). As my Mom put it, I'm ridiculously loquacious, but come by it honestly.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Chief said:


> No doubt truth is subjective. I should note I'm an ENXJ with strong ENFJ leanings, so there's definitely the logical, analytical part of me, but I strongly disagree with NF's being about themselves. In fact, Keirsey talks about how ENFJs are ALL about other people and giving to others. How is that being about ourselves?


Yes, ENFJ's are all about other people and giving to others. But they do that to make them selves happy. I know too many ENFJ's to say that they actually care for real about others. They care about how they feel. They do things to make them selves happy. It's all very selective. One day you can have a really good day with an ENFJ and the next day they behave like you don't exist. That's not caring. It's also not being selfish by the way. They are affected by the outside world in a very strong way. It's probably why they try to control the situation they are in them so much. (not control in a dictatorial way, but by "giving" and being "nice" to people.)



Chief said:


> What I wrote re: the 4 basic groups comes directly from Keirsey. You DID read the rest of the post, right?
> 
> When one is out for oneself, and cares little about what happens to others (Characteristics Briggs-Myers AND Keirsey, Jung, Aristotle, Socrates, I can go on, ALL agreed were endemic to the NT and SP), one cannot be trusted.
> 
> ...


You´re right, in general NT's don't care much for how others feel. But not caring means just that,... not caring. It does NOT mean they feel something about other people. They feel nothing. In general, they will leave people to them selves. Respect others for what they are. This is something they expect back as well. Something that is really difficult to do for ENFJ's.


Please don't put Sheldon as an INTJ. He's more like an INTP. But let's not get into this discussion. :happy:


Just to make sure: I don't dislike ENFJ's. They´re not the easiest people to deal with, but then again, INTJ's aren't either. I work with ENFJ's and these relationships are just fine. From my INTJ point of view, I just need to be careful with how I say something to an ENFJ. That used to irritate me a lot, but after a couple of years of understanding the MBTI and observing very consciously human behavior and interaction, this is not a bother anymore. (Even NF's become predictable once you understand the MBTI and have enough experience observing people. :tongue: )


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Peter said:


> Yes, ENFJ's are all about other people and giving to others. But they do that to make them selves happy.


It's funny, because I used this exact example in my response to Mei... that NTs will claim every action is selfish, and I agree with that to a degree. NFs, however, and ENFJs in particular, care very much how others feel and will act to try to create harmony, but this is because they literally FEEL what others feel. They are, as mentioned in Goldsmith, Tieger, Baron, Keirsey, et. al., the most empathic of any sub-type. Heh... interstingly enough, directly from Keirsey "ENFJ's are extraordinarily tolerant of others, seldom critical, and always trustworthy."

<in an annoying western drawl> Well, if that don't just clinch it...  <end drawl> For your viewing pleasure <ahem>, the above is from "Please Understand Me", 5th edition, copyright 1984, 1st paragraph, Page 168. Man, it's been a long time since I've looked at the first book. Also from that page "Seldom is the ENFJ wrong about the motivations or intent of another, hidden or not." I bring this up because it's exactly how I approach the question of trustworthiness, from the motivations of others. As I've said elsewhere, NFs are all about others, NTs all about themselves, SJs all about tradition and society, SPs all about autonomy, from a motivational standpoint. I would agree everyone is selfish all of the time, but NTs in general are a degree more SELF-ish... about themSELVes (and darn the English language for changing that F to a V, LOL)



Peter said:


> I know too many ENFJ's to say that they actually care for real about others. They care about how they feel. They do things to make them selves happy. It's all very selective. One day you can have a really good day with an ENFJ and the next day they behave like you don't exist. That's not caring. It's also not being selfish by the way. They are affected by the outside world in a very strong way. It's probably why they try to control the situation they are in them so much. (not control in a dictatorial way, but by "giving" and being "nice" to people.)


Um, we do care, for real, about others, or is that what you were trying to say? An NT, generally speaking, couldn't understand the empathic ability of the ENFJ. My brother who is all of 2 1/2 years older than I has exclaimed red-faced, paraphrased "There is no such thing as feeling tension in a room! Humans don't have that sense." To which I replied, "no Ralph, YOU don't have that sense. I feel exactly how others feel all the time." It is that ability to feel what others are feeling which leads us to care so much about others. If we can make them feel better, we will feel better. The more harmonious the relations around us, the happier we are. 




Peter said:


> You´re right, in general NT's don't care much for how others feel. But not caring means just that,... not caring. It does NOT mean they feel something about other people. They feel nothing. In general, they will leave people to them selves. Respect others for what they are. This is something they expect back as well. Something that is really difficult to do for ENFJ's.


Hmmm... ENFJs, as quoted above, are extraordinarily tolerant of others. There IS a breaking point though. An INTJ may be willing to sit back and let a Bundy, Dahmer, or Gacy, a Yates, Ridgeway, or Rader be themselves, and respect them for it, as long as they aren't personally harmed, but they're just about the only type which cares so little about others they'll let another lie, cheat, steal, rape and murder, as long as it doesn't happen to them. There is just no way for me to respect someone who would "respect" such an individuals "right" to be that way. We are extremely tolerant of others, perhaps more so than any other type, but there's a limit man.... there's a limit. :frustrating::wink::laughing:

I really do go out of my way to respect people for who they are, but when they are positively psychopathic, sociopathic, or suffer from NPD, I put my foot down. Sadly an INTJs personality effectively prevents them from feeling contrition, or IOW, having a conscience. On Gardners TMIs, INTJs would score extraordinarily low in the "Interpersonal" area. They're the "morons" of the interpersonal world--not that they care. :happy:



Peter said:


> Please don't put Sheldon as an INTJ. He's more like an INTP. But let's not get into this discussion. :happy:







Watch this, then read the questions which determine what makes someone a P or a J. Anybody who would throw out a REALLY good piece of French Toast because it's "Oatmeal Monday" is *100% J*. Sheldon is extremely uncomfortable when things are not finished. He absolutely *must* schedule every single aspect of his life. He's the freakin' *MESSIAH* of J... :laughing:





Peter said:


> Just to make sure: I don't dislike ENFJ's. They´re not the easiest people to deal with,


Interesting... other than people exactly like yourself, which sub-type, outside of the NT group, would you say *is* the easiest type to deal with. I think I could make a pretty stong argument from the texts, if you're not having the absolute easiest time dealing with someone, then they are not true ENFJs.




Peter said:


> but then again, INTJ's aren't either.


<in my best crazy christian> "Preach it to me brotha'!" LMFAO.



Peter said:


> I work with ENFJ's and these relationships are just fine.


You know, it's funny you say that. My brother thinks the two of us are "just fine" as well. Sheldon would think things were "just fine" too. <sorry... I had to say it>
Seriously though, as I said in another thread, I don't know every single INTJ out there and have not interacted with all of them, but in large part my experiences with them have been decidedly negative, at least in the long run. If I take them in doses, as we're interacting here, I can deal with it. It's the INTJs willingness to allow things which are so blatantly unfair and unjust continue which makes it so very difficult for me to respect them over the long haul.



Peter said:


> From my INTJ point of view, I just need to be careful with how I say something to an ENFJ.


Right back at ya', vice versa of course.



Peter said:


> That used to irritate me a lot, but after a couple of years of understanding the MBTI and observing very consciously human behavior and interaction, this is not a bother anymore. (Even NF's become predictable once you understand the MBTI and have enough experience observing people. :tongue: )


I find it very compelling that you're, I'm guessing, in the industry. Oh, there are plenty of INTJs in academia, lots of them in the Physics department, but you don't usually find them in the liberal arts. 

See the following (try to ignore the Italian)






Skol


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## ArtOfMe (May 5, 2011)

I think there is a tendency to take MBTI as the Word of God and stereotype all people of one type as being the same. Are all INTJs or ESFPs or any other type exactly the same as one another? You'll have healthy and unhealthy psychology in any of those types. Being trustworthy or not has less to do with the personality type and more to do with the individual.

I do admit that I'm wary of people who same too charming. I hate the idea of being manipulated, and I think that becomes very easy for, say, ENFJ or other intuitive extroverts to do. Even my ENFP friend said that she used to be somewhat manipulative, that she _could_ be if she tried. Whenever you have a strong personality and a good understanding of people, it can be easy to find ways to get what you want. There are different types of trust, though. I may see awkward, introverted types as less manipulative, but that doesn't mean I can trust them to be dependable or come through for me. 

The personality types are good for insights into ourselves, but I think we should be careful not to broadly stereotype other types.


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## undead (Nov 28, 2010)

ArtOfMe said:


> I think there is a tendency to take MBTI as the Word of God and stereotype all people of one type as being the same.


MBTI is the word of god. Carl Jung is the Messiah, the messenger, who will save us all. 

There are various paths to follow:
I/E N/S T/F J/P

If you choose socionics, and especially personality agnostics, you won't be saved.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

Chief said:


> It's funny, because I used this exact example in my response to Mei... that NTs will claim every action is selfish, and I agree with that to a degree. NFs, however, and ENFJs in particular, care very .......
> 
> .............
> 
> ...


Just quoting the beginning and the end of your post to show I'm replying to your post.

Our little discussion has given me more insight into the differences between INTJ's and ENFJ's. That makes it worth it.

INTJ and ENFJ aren't a great combination. The differences in preferences are huge. Even something simple as caring means completely different to INTJ's than it does to ENFJ's. I have the impression that for ENFJ's it's all about how it makes them feel. In the mind of an INTJ that doesn't compute. It's like a blind person trying to understand what it's like to see.

That doesn't mean that an INTJ can't know how other people feel. I have empathic abilities, but it's analytical empathy. I know how somebody feels because .... and then I can tell you exactly why and list all the things that I see in facial expressions, body language, tone of voice, etc. But I don't start to feel like that person at all. That is completely alien to me. (In fact, I would consider that a handicap if I would have this kind of empathy.)

When I said that an ENFJ doesn't really care, that was based on my experiences with ENFJ's. Consistency is extremely important to INTJ's. INTJ logic is something like: You can't say you care for people if you treat them like your best friend one day, and pretend they don't exist the next day. I'm seeing this a lot. Depending on who's present, the ENFJ will behave different and to the point that they start ignoring people who they, in other situations, treat like friends.

If somebody doesn't like me, and this person is important to an ENFJ, he'll try to avoid me when that person is around.

I've learned through the MBTI that this kind of ENFJ behavior doesn't mean much and certainly it doesn't mean the ENFJ cares less. But to INTJ's, and I guess NT's in general, this is very very very strange behavior.


But we can't be liked by everybody and since I'm an NT, that's just fine. It's even a good thing because it means those people will leave me alone. 
I guess this doesn't make much sense to ENFJ's. :laughing:


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## Mei (Feb 5, 2011)

Peter said:


> Just quoting the beginning and the end of your post to show I'm replying to your post.
> 
> Our little discussion has given me more insight into the differences between INTJ's and ENFJ's. That makes it worth it.
> 
> ...


Analytical empathy is not empathy per se. It just means that you can understand from your own logical way when someone is indeed upset, is what you mean. Do you take any actions, and do you feel it in your heart? This is the difference. Cos to an NF, they do feel it, and it is coming from their heart. So therefore their words from the heart are always true. They are not lying there. 

Also, NF's kind of empathetic skills that can "sense", really is a combination of noticing behaviors, tone of voice, and hearing the choice of words they use to express themselves, but in a much quicker and faster way. Our tear ducts, and our 5 senses can be linked to this kind of vibes. So if others are upset, we can be upset. If others are happy then others can be happy too. I certainly know that my NF skills can deduce this in seconds. I also learnt that you NT guys can think logically very quickly. Which I am amazed at too. 




> When I said that an ENFJ doesn't really care, that was based on my experiences with ENFJ's. Consistency is extremely important to INTJ's. INTJ logic is something like: You can't say you care for people if you treat them like your best friend one day, and pretend they don't exist the next day. I'm seeing this a lot. Depending on who's present, the ENFJ will behave different and to the point that they start ignoring people who they, in other situations, treat like friends.


Well, with regards to interpersonal relationships, you got maintain it, or else you will lose it. From the ENFJ viewpoint, if you do not say something with sincerity and mean it for real. This is a negative point on their books. If you do not get in touch after a while, then you are also point deducted too. I certainly know who my friends are. They are not the invisible fairies. If there are no communication or bonding for a while, don't expect me to behave as warmly as before. Cos my love bucket is running out of credit. In the workplace, as my sister say, take people with a pinch of salt, cos you cannot get on with everybody and not everybody can indeed get on with you, or that they will have to make an effort, so therefore to create a more co-operative working environment. Whether individuals are true friends, then this is through time and through your own choice really. 

Also, give other NF or F in your workplace some slack. Cos some individuals will indeed be affected by decisions made by their bosses. Scolded for things they did not do. Insinuated and implied that they are liars etc. Most of these typical things that happens daily, seriously hit on any person with an F. The most respectful thing a T person could do, is to give them room to calm themselves down, or give them supportive words so that they can dismiss it out of their minds asap and be fully functional again, IF you are a genuine friend. 

People may say that they care for you, but they care in a detached way, and yes, maybe some NTs also do not see this as well, which is that many NF managers will do any actions or take any options as they could within a company to save people from being fired and therefore losing their jobs. This is why they are good "people managers". If within a company who wants a high employee retainance, then they are your choices. They may also have to follow the flow and vibe of the room and situation in order to gather and harness the energy felt by the team. Maybe this is what you mean by their different approaches. If they have something on their mind and cannot say, and do not want to worry others, then why would they be able to talk to you in a hee hee ha ha manner? They are only also humans. 

Even if some people say that they care for you, if you don't show any sign to reciprocate that back, then why should and why do you expect that it will be there forever? Some relationships are "live". They are living things. No contact, no support. It dies. 



> If somebody doesn't like me, and this person is important to an ENFJ, he'll try to avoid me when that person is around.


Cos they do not need to say something which may embarrass both individuals. Maybe he wanted a private chat, and it is inappropiate in a social situation? Cos you wouldn't talk to certain people if they are not close to you... so.. the same applies. Why talk so openly on certain subjects for the sake of it? I am like this also. I do work, and I try to socialise in a company setting, but I won't give up my own personal friends, and families up for the company. Sorry. Unless they have shown me extreme loyalty... 



> I've learned through the MBTI that this kind of ENFJ behavior doesn't mean much and certainly it doesn't mean the ENFJ cares less. But to INTJ's, and I guess NT's in general, this is very very very strange behavior.


Then NTs have to learn about how to be human. Maybe this is why I say that NT are loyal. Loyal to those who they feel affinity to. Cos they expect the same in return. 



> But we can't be liked by everybody and since I'm an NT, that's just fine. It's even a good thing because it means those people will leave me alone.
> I guess this doesn't make much sense to ENFJ's. :laughing:


I think ENFJ Chief is being a tad OTT and being a tad dramatic here. I sense that, even as an NF person myself, I don't find what he says in generalising NT are good. Maybe he has indeed come across SOME examples of NTs who he does not dislike. I myself still want to remain impartial with regards to any NTs, SJs... cos I really do not want to feel that individuals are truly that bad. Maybe I have not found the correct communication style with them just yet. 

Maybe it is because I had an unusual childhood, and I myself is quite spontaneous that, I did not mind the quietness of my father, or brother. They also did not always lived with us. We were a global family. One thing I do know is that, both my NT brother and NT father cannot emotionally relate to you, but can indeed provide other care. Like, I find my father quite good at listening to my ideas, and once he knows I have an idea, he then trusts me to deal it in my own life. He only provide financial support. For my bro, I often give him a scenario, and he can often dissect it logically into bits very quickly, and I can then see the individual reasons and approach to the problem. It is his calmness, and without the drama which allows me to see a solution without my own emotions into it too. I mean, as I matured, sure... sure life is simpler for an NF person, but until this point, I do need this kind of input. 

With regards to how people are in work place, in family and in social situations and relationships. I expected, or I assume that many individuals know what kind of skills are required in each of those situation? For work, I thought that expectation of professionalism, with little personal drama, or dramatised and emotional response are not that acceptable? Also, you can't have too many personal preferences and individual responses that holds no value to the company's objectives and should not be warranted and accepted so highly? This maybe hard for an NF.

In a social civilised every day situation, I thought that simple courtesy of "hello" and "goodbye" and "how are you", are also quite acceptabled, and expected ? This may be hard for an NT.


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## Kestrel (Jun 22, 2011)

I think it's very strange that so few people trust INTPs. I would trust a fellow INTP with my life, and those who have trusted me have never been disappointed.

Least trustworthy? The obvious answer would be ESFP/ESTP, but I think they actually follow pretty predictable patterns. If you're fooled by an ESxP, it's usually your fault - you usually should really have been able to see it coming. They're *not* really 'snake in the grass' type personalities that lead you to believe you ought to trust them when you really shouldn't. Lying... is just what they do. It's almost endearing.

I think the type most capable of shocking, unexpected backstabbing is ESFJ. As personalitypage puts it:



> With Extraverted Feeling dominating their personality, ESFJs are focused on reading other people. *They have a strong need to be liked, and to be in control.* They are extremely good at reading others, and often change their own manner to be more pleasing to whoever they're with at the moment.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often *genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system.* They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to *justify*. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually *quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them*. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are *driven to manipulate other to achieve their own ends*, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.


I've seen it happen and they're actually capable of rationalising the necessity of their actions when they stab you in the back. The need to be liked is a dangerous need indeed, that can really drive them to do some sick, twisted things to the people they supposedly love and who have put their trust in them. They will not look back. In their heads, they will _know_ that the other person had it coming.

An ESFJs betrayal contains more malice than a betrayal of any other personality type. It's the Ti shadow function, as shadow functions are always the most raw and basic. Compare with the Fe shadow-function of an INTP, which always presents itself as a disproportionate outburst or in child-like innocence. In ESFJs, the Ti shadow-function is cutthroat and always unexpected.


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

I've only seen the first few pages,, but it seems like










Also (defining trust as being able to take their word, that they will follow through on a promise, or that they are telling the truth), I don't trust ENFPs and ISFPs, though, it doesn't surprise me that not a lot of people don't trust INTPs. These all being based on personal experience, of course, and apt to be highly variable, as has been said (high five for redundant posts).


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Kestrel said:


> I think it's very strange that so few people trust INTPs. I would trust a fellow INTP with my life, and those who have trusted me have never been disappointed.
> 
> Least trustworthy? The obvious answer would be ESFP/ESTP, but I think they actually follow pretty predictable patterns. If you're fooled by an ESxP, it's usually your fault - you usually should really have been able to see it coming. They're *not* really 'snake in the grass' type personalities that lead you to believe you ought to trust them when you really shouldn't. Lying... is just what they do. It's almost endearing.
> 
> ...


Hoo-boy... Just what we need: More ESFJ hate.

Any type can be a backstabber, or shallow, or a flake, or untrustworthy; and if you don't know that, then you haven't been mixing with enough variety of people and types. They just tend to do it in different ways suited to their unique bents.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising that people naturally perceive their Inferior-function counterparts to be purposefully malicious rather than just responding in their own primary's strengths and weaknesses just as they do themselves. MBTI theory predicts that sort of misunderstanding and projected negative intent. 

(I was pretty rocked when I realized a lot of SFJs in my life had read some of my non-malicious behaviors negatively, based on their own type preferences, while my intentions had been good even if my execution had been flawed. It's very easy for people to misread each other unless they really get into each other's heads.)


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## Kestrel (Jun 22, 2011)

Jennywocky said:


> Hoo-boy... Just what we need: More ESFJ hate.
> 
> Any type can be a backstabber, or shallow, or a flake, or untrustworthy; and if you don't know that, then you haven't been mixing with enough variety of people and types. They just tend to do it in different ways suited to their unique bents.


Oh, I really don't hate ESFJs. They're the type I'm most wary of and the type I'm least likely to confide in, but for the most part I do admire them greatly. It's just that _when_ they're bad, in my experience, they're rotten to the core and you _never_ see it coming.

Whilst each personality has their strengths, weaknesses, highs and lows, I don't find the negative capabilities of other types to be half as sinister. 



> I guess it shouldn't be surprising that people naturally perceive their Inferior-function counterparts to be purposefully malicious rather than just responding in their own primary's strengths and weaknesses just as they do themselves. MBTI theory predicts that sort of misunderstanding and projected negative intent.
> 
> (I was pretty rocked when I realized a lot of SFJs in my life had read some of my non-malicious behaviors negatively, based on their own type preferences, while my intentions had been good even if my execution had been flawed. It's very easy for people to misread each other unless they really get into each other's heads.)


This is interesting. I hadn't really thought about that.


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## daniela123 (Jan 1, 2011)

EntPs are some of the least trustworthy people I've ever meet.


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## Tobias Andre Andersen (Jun 18, 2011)

I believe, that any type of unhealthy proportions are the worst kinds.

There you have it. Unhealthy -> Not trustworthy...


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## Adp (Jun 15, 2011)

I think ISFJ's win this thread, and with little fanfare to boot.


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## TiNeSi (Jan 10, 2011)

Based on my experience, I have to vote ISFJ for number one, just like pretty much everyone before. They will keep a secret, are super loyal, don't play mind games, don't lie. So, they win on all aspects. Next would ISTP and INFJ, in no particular order. I have to say I don't know why ESTPs get such a bad rap. I find them to be loyal friends and they definitely don't lie/play mind games. They would have been my number 4, but the list was top 3 so...
As for less trustworthy, I would have to with ENFPs. They usually mean well, but they're the most likely to make a commitment and flake on you and I'm never quite sure if they mean what they say or are just being nice. Then I would say ENTPs, because they change their mind every freaking minute and ENFJs because of their manipulative tendencies.


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

Chief said:


> I don't have a dog in this race, but unless you define the term trustworthiness as you define and then come together on a definition, agreeing or disaggreeing doesn't make much difference. I know Keirsey says verbatim "ENFJs are always trustworthy" leading me to believe he felt it was a personality trait.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't mean YOU have to, but unless you define traits like that BEFORE the discussion, I think you'll find yourself in more fights than agreements, and even if you find those who agree, you can't be sure you're agreeing on the same thing.
> 
> Just my $.02.:wink:


Uh...alright? I didn't create the discussion so I guess I wasn't in charge of creating definitions of "trustworthiness" from the beginning was I? Not really sure what the point of your response was. I'm kinda confused, not gonna lie. But I was just giving my opinion like everyone else and I don't see anything wrong with agreeing with anyone. If it turned out the person didn't actually agree with me like I thought they did then they can just say so. I like discussions. I don't feel like I need to agree with everyone, but I rejoice when I find someone who might possibly think at least similarly to the way I do, and I have a hard time not mentioning it. Quote from myself: "I THINK trustworthiness is a character trait not a personality trait." I expressed an opinion. So...???


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

TiNeSi said:


> and ENFJs because of their manipulative tendencies.


Because the bulk (if not all) of what you said was based on your experience, I would never refute it. After all, we're all entitled to your opinions. That being said, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of ENFJs if you believe we're manipulative. In fact, I know for a fact, once I found out someone thought I was doing something with the INTENT of being manipulative, I stopped doing it... IMMEDIATELY!

ENFJs have, as Keirsey put, a "charming characteristic of seeming to take for granted that they will be followed, never doubting people will _want_ to do what they suggest, and more often than not, people do." Being maliciously, intentionally manipulative is not even in the lexicon, the playbook of the ENFJ because more than any other archetype, ENFJs genuinely care about others--even to the point where INTJs on here have cited time and time again ENFJs get more pleasure out of pleasing others than they do doing something for themselves (which is where it gets circular, because we supposedly make others happy to make ourselves happy by making others happy which makes us happy... get the point? :laughing

When it comes to trustworthiness, again, the term absolutely has to be defined before it can be agreed upon. If by trustworthy you mean reliable, then INTJs are right up there, because they can be relied upon to do whatever will benefit themselves, no matter if it means lying, cheating, stealing, betraying the confidence of, or even killing other people. SPs are EXTREMELY trustworthy at being flaky. You can always rely on an SP to let you down when you need them. SJs are really trustworthy if your definition is "sticking to tradition" or "obeying the law." NFs, can be trusted, in general (and these are all generalized, of course), to do what they feel is in someone else's best interest.

Quoting Keirsey again, "ENFJs are extraordinarily tolerant of others, seldom critical, *and always trustworthy*." I'm truly sorry if you feel an ENFJ has "manipulated" you in the past. I know my ex-wife, at the end of our marriage, accused me of manipulating her into marrying me when, in truth, those were the LAST things I wanted to do (manipulate her OR marry her). I only went through with the wedding because I thought it was what she wanted (yes, I was obviously an absolute imbecile back then, but I was all of 19, so hey, live and learn, right?). Anyway, my point is, I really don't think you've ever intentionally been manipulated by an ENFJ. I'm not saying they didn't manipulate you, or you didn't feel manipulated. I'm saying it wasn't their intent. If it WAS their intent, then chances are they're really an ENTJ, not an ENFJ. Don't believe me? Ask the ENFJ board and I all but guarantee you you'll get the same response.

Skål


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

@Love Wins It was just a suggestion along with the interpretation of the word by arguably the guy who did the most advanced work in the area of personality archetypes. I should have said I didn't "have a dog in this fight", not race (don't know where my mind was that night), but the idea hopefully still got across. The point was it would be best to define the term "trustworthy" before declaring it a character trait or personality trait. In truth, I'm not altogether certain character traits and personality traits are different things, but there again we need to define the terms. Keirsey's Rationals, NTs, are focused on self-gain, are the most egocentric of all the archetypes by definition. I believe some would call that a character trait, yet it defines the very basis of their personality. SPs are notoriously bad with time, keeping appointments, et. al. Some would call that a character flaw (others might say they're spontaneous and call it a good personality trait), yet, again, it's a defining characteristic of their personality, and I could go on.

There was nothing personal in it. I was simply making a suggestion.


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

@Chief

I see character traits as developed traits caused by each person's choices and personality traits as more inborn tendencies. But I guess each person's definition is going to depend on whether they believe that people are responsible for their actions or whether they believe that everyone's actions are predetermined by genetics. In which case we have absolutely no place to hold any untrustworthiness against anyone OR give credit to those people who do display trustworthiness.


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

Chief said:


> ENFJs have, as Keirsey put, a "charming characteristic of seeming to take for granted that they will be followed, never doubting people will _want_ to do what they suggest, and more often than not, people do."


Ugh! ESFJs do the same thing. It's annoying cause I know a particular ESFJ who I dissagree with all the time and when I don't want to follow something she's trying to get me to do she doesn't understand that I don't want to do it. She doesn't get that I don't _want_ to follow the group. I WANT to be alone in that particular thing, but it's just beyond her comprehension or something. According to her, who wouldn't want to be a part of the group? Apparently that's just unheard of. Not that ENFJs are exactly like that. I wouldn't know.:crazy:



Chief said:


> ENFJs genuinely care about others--even to the point where INTJs on here have cited time and time again ENFJs get more pleasure out of pleasing others than they do doing something for themselves (which is where it gets circular, because we supposedly make others happy to make ourselves happy by making others happy which makes us happy... get the point? :laughing


Hmm. I think I like this trait about ENFJs. It does sound ironically selfish, though, don't you think?


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Love Wins said:


> Ugh! ESFJs do the same thing. It's annoying cause I know a particular ESFJ who I dissagree with all the time and when I don't want to follow something she's trying to get me to do she doesn't understand that I don't want to do it. She doesn't get that I don't _want_ to follow the group. I WANT to be alone in that particular thing, but it's just beyond her comprehension or something. According to her, who wouldn't want to be a part of the group? Apparently that's just unheard of. Not that ENFJs are exactly like that. I wouldn't know.:crazy:


The difference between ENFJs and ESFJs in this case is the ENFJ will KNOW you don't want to do something, will sense it, and will want to make sure you're okay with it because ultimately their happiness lies in the happiness of those around them. No self-respecting ENFJ would force you or WANT you to go somewhere or do something you don't want to do. The ESFJ will want to do something because tradition or law suggests that it should be done and will try to argue with you and convince you THIS is why you should do it. ESFJs won't realize you're not content. ENFJs will not only realize it, they'll FEEL it, quite literally, in their bones, and will want to do something to resolve it. I know it's just one letter, but it's arguably the most important letter in determining with whom you'll get along. An ESFJ would NEVER want to discuss hypothetical situations with you. For instance, if you asked an ESFJ what they thought would be more fun to ride: a pegasus, unicorn, griffin, or manticore, they'd look at you like you were from another planet. The ENFJ would think it's an awesome question and would enjoy the discussion, even though on this earth none of them are possible (at least at this point).



Love Wins said:


> (RE: ENFJs enjoying pleasing others)
> Hmm. I think I like this trait about ENFJs. It does sound ironically selfish, though, don't you think?


I do, and it's hysterical. The longer you're on here, the more you'll see the rare ENFJ (there aren't many of us who spend time writing online. Most of us would rather be out experiencing the world. I just happen to be a geek at heart, and enjoy the interaction regardless, especially at 1:24AM on a Monday morning) on the boards here arguing with INTJs. We are the interpersonal opposites of one another. Like I said, ENFJs genuinely care about others, and INTJs, BECAUSE they're so selfish, can't imagine someone ACTUALLY caring about another person other than for personal gain. For us, the ENFJs, it's like trying to convince the deaf, dumb, and blind how great a certain movie was.... talk about frustrating.


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## Chief (Apr 23, 2011)

Love Wins said:


> @Chief
> 
> I see character traits as developed traits caused by each person's choices and personality traits as more inborn tendencies. But I guess each person's definition is going to depend on whether they believe that people are responsible for their actions or whether they believe that everyone's actions are predetermined by genetics. In which case we have absolutely no place to hold any untrustworthiness against anyone OR give credit to those people who do display trustworthiness.


So, to you, personality is genetic and character is based on action conducted with free will? Personally, I define trustworthiness as whether or not someone will act in MY best interest regardless of the circumstance. If I can trust them to act in MY best interest (keep a secret, can be trusted to hold onto my debit card while I'm on a roller coaster, will respect/protect my personal items, can be counted on, when it's important, to be on time... you get the picture), they are trustworthy. If not, they aren't. I really don't understand how some people's definitions can be other than this, but I've really gotten into it with certain INTJs on here who believe consistency of action (IOW, predictability) is the equivalent of trustworthiness. I tried to explain to them how, if that were true, there would be no need for the word trustworthy. We'd just call someone predictable. Of course, the reason they argue the point is they will lie, cheat, steal, betray, kill if it is in their best interest which makes them utterly UNtrustworthy by my definition, and nobody wants to think of themselves as untrustworthy.

Anyway, yes. You're correct. Until you define and agree upon just how much genetics come into play, this is a very difficult discussion to have. To me, character and personality are more or less indistinguishable because there's little to do with human behavior, aside from sexual orientation, which isn't, at least in part, determined by both genetics AND environment. Heck, there are people born who have the personality of a serial killer, but if they're brought up in a good, loving home, they won't go on to kill people. Put them, however, with a controlling abusive parent, and viola! You've got yourself a serial killer. 

I don't, however, see what's so difficult about defining trustworthiness as you (the COLLECTIVE you... not saying you personally--feel like I'm wasting computer screen space by saying that, but.... :wink see it, and THEN saying which type/types you believe are the most trustworthy, but it appears to be beyond the scope of either interest or ability for most people. Oh well. That's their problem. :happy:


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## TiNeSi (Jan 10, 2011)

Chief said:


> Because the bulk (if not all) of what you said was based on your experience, I would never refute it. After all, we're all entitled to your opinions. That being said, I think you have a serious misunderstanding of ENFJs if you believe we're manipulative. In fact, I know for a fact, once I found out someone thought I was doing something with the INTENT of being manipulative, I stopped doing it... IMMEDIATELY!


 You are correct on the fact that all of my message was based on my experience, which is why I started it with the words "Based on my experience"
The types I stated as top 3 (and even top 4) have consistently kept my secrets and the secrets of others, been there for me and for others close to them, told me the truth and not played mind games with me.
In no way have I stated that the types, which I personnaly might not trust as much have ill intentions. In fact, I even went as far as saying that ENFPs (those I have encountered) generally meant well (towards me anyway).


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

Chief said:


> The difference between ENFJs and ESFJs in this case is the ENFJ will KNOW you don't want to do something, will sense it, and will want to make sure you're okay with it because ultimately their happiness lies in the happiness of those around them. No self-respecting ENFJ would force you or WANT you to go somewhere or do something you don't want to do. The ESFJ will want to do something because tradition or law suggests that it should be done and will try to argue with you and convince you THIS is why you should do it. ESFJs won't realize you're not content. ENFJs will not only realize it, they'll FEEL it, quite literally, in their bones, and will want to do something to resolve it. I know it's just one letter, but it's arguably the most important letter in determining with whom you'll get along. An ESFJ would NEVER want to discuss hypothetical situations with you. For instance, if you asked an ESFJ what they thought would be more fun to ride: a pegasus, unicorn, griffin, or manticore, they'd look at you like you were from another planet. The ENFJ would think it's an awesome question and would enjoy the discussion, even though on this earth none of them are possible (at least at this point).


I see. Ya, the ESFJ I know always laughs at me and never takes me seriously when I ask "what if?" questions. I also tend to be very "head in the clouds-ish" (typical INFP...)which makes her think that I need to be seriously brought down to earth in a "Oh you're so cute" kind of way. Grr...nothing turns me off more!



Chief said:


> I do, and it's hysterical. The longer you're on here, the more you'll see the rare ENFJ (there aren't many of us who spend time writing online. Most of us would rather be out experiencing the world. I just happen to be a geek at heart, and enjoy the interaction regardless, especially at 1:24AM on a Monday morning) on the boards here arguing with INTJs. We are the interpersonal opposites of one another. Like I said, ENFJs genuinely care about others, and INTJs, BECAUSE they're so selfish, can't imagine someone ACTUALLY caring about another person other than for personal gain. For us, the ENFJs, it's like trying to convince the deaf, dumb, and blind how great a certain movie was.... talk about frustrating.


I can imagine!! My dad is an INTJ. He's never actually been offically "diagnosed" but he's an obvious INTJ. He has no tolerance for anyone's feelings whatsoever except his own, which has made it very difficult for me to live with him considering my dominant Fi. I do, however, very much respect his intelligence and the fact that he's taught me to think for myself and try to be more objective in my thinking. It takes all kinds to keep the world running, I guess.


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## dejavu (Jun 23, 2010)

The most trustworthy type that I know is easily an ISTJ. I won't go so far as to say that all ISTJs are trustworthy, but the one I know is amazing in the trust area. I love that I can share with her without any worries and it gives me even more motivation to prove that she can count on me also.

I'm pretty good at this too. :tongue: If someone tells me something and asks that I keep it to myself, I will basically carry it to the grave.


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## Love Wins (Jul 18, 2011)

Chief said:


> So, to you, personality is genetic and character is based on action conducted with free will? .


I think so. That is my current belief anyway.



Chief said:


> Personally, I define trustworthiness as whether or not someone will act in MY best interest regardless of the circumstance. If I can trust them to act in MY best interest (keep a secret, can be trusted to hold onto my debit card while I'm on a roller coaster, will respect/protect my personal items, can be counted on, when it's important, to be on time... you get the picture), they are trustworthy. If not, they aren't. I really don't understand how some people's definitions can be other than this, but I've really gotten into it with certain INTJs on here who believe consistency of action (IOW, predictability) is the equivalent of trustworthiness. I tried to explain to them how, if that were true, there would be no need for the word trustworthy. We'd just call someone predictable. Of course, the reason they argue the point is they will lie, cheat, steal, betray, kill if it is in their best interest which makes them utterly UNtrustworthy by my definition, and nobody wants to think of themselves as untrustworthy.


Isn't it funny how each personality type seems to have a different definition of trustworthiness? I think each person's definition is going to depend more upon what kind of behavior they want from people or what is important to them. A little while ago I was having a conversation with my mother (a very dutiful person; I think she would agree with your definition of trustworthiness) and she started to lecture me on treating people "with love" regardless of the way you really feel about them, which I find very difficult and fake. (Even as an adult, she still likes to make these speeches to me.) So then later when she told me she loved me, I found it very difficult to believe her because of the conversation that we had earlier. I believe that she really does love me, but I don't like to feel like there's a possibility that she's faking it. To me, honesty is the core aspect of trustworthiness. I've had people treat me as if they cared about me when they never did, and though I never really believed them, I can stomach a rude remark a lot easier than a fake nice one. I don't really care very much if someone is not on time (it would be pretty hypocritical of me :tongue. I believe there are more important things in life than keeping to schedules. I agree about trusting that someone will keep a secret, and I also think (I'm sure you were implying this, maybe not...) trustworthiness is more like being able to trust that a person will never backstab you or lie to you. I can't stand gossipers for that reason. So pretty much, trustworthiness to me is the opposite of dishonesty.



Chief said:


> Anyway, yes. You're correct. Until you define and agree upon just how much genetics come into play, this is a very difficult discussion to have. To me, character and personality are more or less indistinguishable because there's little to do with human behavior, aside from sexual orientation, which isn't, at least in part, determined by both genetics AND environment. Heck, there are people born who have the personality of a serial killer, but if they're brought up in a good, loving home, they won't go on to kill people. Put them, however, with a controlling abusive parent, and viola! You've got yourself a serial killer.


Agreed.



Chief said:


> I don't, however, see what's so difficult about defining trustworthiness as you (the COLLECTIVE you... not saying you personally--feel like I'm wasting computer screen space by saying that, but.... :wink see it, and THEN saying which type/types you believe are the most trustworthy, but it appears to be beyond the scope of either interest or ability for most people. Oh well. That's their problem. :happy:


:laughing: I guess because in my mind I was paving the way for much enjoyed discussion without much forethought as to whether it would become confrontational. It just didn't seem like a very confrontational subject to me.


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## Oluwadan (Aug 21, 2011)

So how's an ENTJ supposed to feel good about himself then ;-)


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