# What did you learn from divorce?



## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

This is all very interesting. I've never been married, but this site was mentioned on another PerC thread and it made me think of our discussion, here. I Live In a Sexless Marriage | Group with Personal Stories, Forums and Chat


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

It was the right thing to do, but I learned that I never, ever want to do that again.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

I felt like I got inaugurated into a new club once I got divorced. There is a lot of sex in this club.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Jennywocky said:


> 5. Kids love both parents, even if you think the other has been a schlunk. Don't put them in the middle. Let them decide how they want to deal with each of you. Be there for them.


My mother made the mistake of trying to win my siblings and myself over to her side. It worked for a little bit but I saw through the bullshit and most of my siblings rarely communicate with or see her very often. My father is a lot more popular with us. He tried to remain neutral and didn't badmouth her like she did to him.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

pinkrasputin said:


> I felt like I got inaugurated into a new club once I got divorced. There is a lot of sex in this club.


... where???


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Jennywocky said:


> ... where???


Club Divorcee. It's a state of mind. 


Okay joking aside, here a few things I learned from divorce.

I don't want another divorce.
I got married way too young (27). I had no business pressuring myself into major life decisions like that when I barely knew myself.

I wanted a breeder, not really a marriage. 
I wanted a husband, not really a companion.

I married in part because of imaginary societal pressure. I also married in part because I didn't believe in myself enough then to know that I could do it on my own.

I learned establishing common parenting values are essential before ever deciding to get married and have kids with someone.

I learned to never marry someone who grew up in a completely different country. They don't show up at first, but a cultural divide like that allows for some painful difference in communication, lifestyle, and values.

I learned it can take years to really know someone. 

I learned it is important to establish your own inner voice first before ever co-habitating with someone. Because one day, it will eventually come out. And once you've established your own inner voice, your partner may no longer like who you've become and all you became was "grown up". And once you are grown up, you may wonder why the hell you chose this person and why have they gotten into the habit of speaking up for you? 

I learned there was no rush to get married. Nothing "magical" happens to you if you are not married or don't have a child by 30 years old. 

I learned I can fight and defend myself damn good in court. I learned a TON about laws and the legal system.

Marriage is not an escape. It is not security either. That can only be found in yourself. Marriage does not make you behave and force you to change your ways for the better if you are a thrill seeker. 


However, I learned more from marriage than I did from divorce. I've also learned more from death. My ex husband and I were married for 8 years and have been divorced for 7 years. We had fought over the years and got to a point of severing contact. His father (my daughter's grandfather) just passed away a few days ago. And with his death, all past hurts, wounds and resentments between my ex and I are healed. This good for our daughter. Life is too short to live in hate.


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## Ikari_T (Apr 10, 2012)

Elizindrhythm said:


> As a woman who *NEEDED* the alimony, I would say circumstances matter entirely.
> 
> My ex was making nearly $100,000 per year (I say nearly, because during the divorce I learned that he had been lying to me about some money matters - like not putting any money into an IRA account for me, so that my IRA was about half the size I thought it was, and now I don't trust *anything* he told me), and when we divorced I was averaging $10,000. Living in Fairfax county, Virginia - one of the top three areas with highest cost of living in America. (Seriously - we qualified for state aid to buy our house when we were making $45,000 in 1992!)
> 
> ...


My goodness, the stuff you went through! This post made me cry inside (and almost cried on the outside but resisting the urge). You ex is an asshole! Sure, the relationship didn't work out. But you're obviously struggling in making a living on your own. He could at least fork over some money to help you out. 

I do hope life is treating you well now. Hang in there.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

I learned that whomever said money can't buy happiness never met a divorce lawyer.

A little more seriously: No one needs to be married anymore so you have to want to be married or you are headed to divorce. That means most of us will be there at some point, just to be realistic. Most people don't want to give up so much of themselves, or they choose the wrong person to give themselves up to.

Living together is not the same as being married. If you're living together successfully it doesn't indicate anything about your odds of being successfully married.

Men often will say anything to get laid, while women often will say anything to get married. There is very little service after the sale in each case.

If you have kids divorce gets messy and quite horrible, especially if you're a dedicated father who wants an active role in raising your kids. You can expect to basically be gutted emotionally, reputationally, and financially. If you think divorce is the right thing for the kids (as it is when your wife is an addict who won't confront her problems) then it's all worthwhile, but you will be tested and humiliated.

Try not to get divorced more than once in life. When it's happened twice you look like you have something seriously wrong with you.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised if my own parents' divorce is the leading cause behind why I lack practically any interest in being married nowadays. Or for that matter, why I'm quite content staying single for a significant amount of time, and quite possibly the remainder of my life even.

Well, that, and the fact that their relationship while married was marred for 21 years with alcohol, and verbal plus physical abuse. That could be it too. I really hate when stupid people breed. :dry:


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Meh, it's only been a year and a half since mine. Another 6 months and it'll be final divorce/split/gone. The system is a little different here in NZ, you separate for 2 years and then you actually divorce. (So technically my "love life" of the last 6 months has involved a lot of adultery. Stupid system in NZ.)


Ack! That is crazy!! They have it in reverse! Do they make you wait two years before giving you a marriage license? They should.

My God. I thought my divorce was long. And once I got it, it was like a dream come true. I was so happy. 

I am sure once yours is finalized you will feel a huge sigh of relief and things may not be so dark. 

I worked my ass off not to become bitter like others I've seen after divorce. I would never let something like that change me. My heart would be open again and hopeful. I also don't remember crying or shedding a tear during my divorce. Quite the opposite. FREEDOM!

However, other relationships I've had after my divorce have finally changed me and embittered me. Lol. Commitment scares the crap out of me right now. :frustrating:


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

@pinkrasputin

I don't know if this is appropriate or what but I am curious with how stats talk about divorce being on the rise and some attributing it to women having more options. That religions role is no longer embedded in marriage.
It kind of makes divorce seem like a bad thing and of course its not anything pleasant but would you say in a way divorce is a good thing? 

Because it's when both partners find their union unsatisfactory and it's having a very negative effect on them to a point where it's not about improvement but more the two not compatible anymore and it can't be saved.
That its sad but not in the way people think. That its a mutual thing, it'd be sad if two happy people got a divorce but happy couples wouldn't get a divorce.
That there's some sort of unconscious belief that just because two people are married they must be happy even though theres plenty of rather shitty marriages.
Also what's your opinion on marriage since your divorce? Do you think you'll ever want to be married to someone again, is it a never intended thing, are you not looking but still open to the idea?

I'm just trying to garner whether or not my view of it is distorted. I hope I worded this in a easy to read way


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Wellsy said:


> @pinkrasputin
> 
> I don't know if this is appropriate or what but I am curious with how stats talk about divorce being on the rise and some attributing it to women having more options. That religions role is no longer embedded in marriage.
> It kind of makes divorce seem like a bad thing and of course its not anything pleasant but would you say in a way divorce is a good thing?
> ...


You'll have to forgive me. Right now, I can barely stomach the idea of only dating one guy. I'm having too much fun dating around and enjoying the benefits of single hood. But I had a break up not long ago so this could be a phase. But atm, I don't see the benefit of narrowing my options down to just one guy when I can have a few who treat me well. Plus, only one is too much pressure for me and too much pressure for that one guy. 

However, after my divorce I was open to the idea of marriage again. I really wasn't open to dating. But that changed. If I ever do marry again, it would have to be when I'm a bit older and ready to settle down. Maybe I will have chilled out or have lost my ability to walk or something. I'd have ti be so impressed that I'd have no eyes for any other. I don't really need to remarry, but if it makes my partner happy I might go along. 

But I do think marriage causes divorce. A guy friend just told me a story about his buddy. He and his girlfriend had been seeing each other for 13 years. They lived together too. His buddy finally asked his girlfriend to to get married and they did. They were also divorced after two months. 

I am very greatful for my marriage experience and for my child. I threw everything I had into it in order to make it work- years of individual counseling, couple's counseling, conflict resolution classes, etc. But it wasn't going to fix the problems we had.

I really think marriage might be more for people well over mid-life. And I'm still not certain of its point. However, I know I would never have had a baby out of wed lock. That would be against my core values. I think I got married so I could have a baby and experience motherhood.

I don't need to experience motherhood anymore. I don't need to experience what having a husband is like and I've been providing for myself for years. I can also freely walk away from a relationship I don't want to be in. I like when being together is a daily choice, not because of need or obligation. 

Yeah. I think I'd have to be closer to death if I marry again. Lol.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

@pinkrasputin

Thank you for taking the time to give a insightful response.
Perhaps people's perception of marriage has its faults. As if once you have it and they're locked into it with you that people stop trying so much. Perhaps for some it's just because they've gotten to known each other so much and realised daily life is boring with the same person.
I guess like anyone i'll possibly come to face these problems and try and find a solution just as anyone.

Well you have your fun Miss and that you're getting the most out of the freedom that comes with being a single woman


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

pinkrasputin said:


> Club Divorcee. It's a state of mind.
> 
> 
> Okay joking aside, here a few things I learned from divorce.
> ...


Holy crapolies - if you were young when you got married, I was an infant! (22) Lol

But you are totally right - the biggest problem is in getting married when YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE. A lot of why I got married was because I was about to graduate college, I didn't want to go back home and yet I was too scared to step out into the world by myself. How stupid was that???? (Yes, that was all subconciously, but still, I had to be talked into getting married by both my ex and my mother, who kept saying "Not many men these days are willing to get married, and he actually wants to marry you..")

We both knew we were young and would change as we grew older, but we didn't realize how easily we would depend on our roles to do the work of communicating for us. And this is without kids - it must be ten times worse if you are playing Mommy and Daddy! 

I'm glad that you are making peace with your ex, frankly mostly for your daughter's sake. I've moved to a completely different part of the country from my ex, and we haven't even found each other on the internet (I've even had to google him once or twice to make sure he's still alive - I've not heard a peep from him since the alimony ended). In a way that's good, because I don't see him and get my wounds opened again, but it also sucks because it is so much harder to reconcile the fantasy I married versus the monster I created in my pain versus the actual man I shared bills and bought a house with. 

And go on with your badass self, lawgirl! Good for you for fighting for yourself! Who needs lawyers when you have ENFPs with a cause... :wink:


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

Ikari_T said:


> My goodness, the stuff you went through! This post made me cry inside (and almost cried on the outside but resisting the urge). You ex is an asshole! Sure, the relationship didn't work out. But you're obviously struggling in making a living on your own. He could at least fork over some money to help you out.
> 
> I do hope life is treating you well now. Hang in there.


Aww, thank you sweetie!! I didn't mean to get the violins out and everything... 

Firstly, yes, my life is becoming more and more awesomeness now. I'm currently employed in the non-profit sector, so I'm still not making huge amounts of money, but I also live someplace a helluva lot less expensive (Southern Louisiana). I've got a strong career going and I'm finally getting ready to step out into serious dating. (As for that rockin' and rollin' swinger's lifestyle you're supposed to have after divorce? ROTFLMnotFAO!!!)

Secondly, I guess what I was trying to say is that a pre-nup is a great idea IF both parties come into it strong, mature and with a practical mindset. What happened in my marriage was I was weak and dependent, and my ex was immature, selfish and became abusive. If we had developed a pre-nup before we married, I still would have given away as much as I could to show that I was worthy of him, and he still would have taken as much as he could to protect himself from me - but I would have been even more screwed when we divorced.


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## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Things I learned from divorce?

That it was the best thing ever invented for people who are silly enough to get married  

My marriage was a mistake from Day 1 and I knew it. I got caught up in the momentum of it all and didn't know how to get out of it. I was only 23 and didn't have enough relationship experience to understand what I wanted and needed from a relationship.

I eventually learned how to stand up for myself. While it was one of the most difficult things I've done in my life, my divorce was also without a doubt one of the best experiences of my life. It taught me a lot about myself and how to deal with other people's feelings. 

I doubt I'll ever re-marry. Apart from the tax breaks, I just don't see any reason to.


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## Memphisto (Jan 27, 2010)

I've spent the last couple years going through a separation and my divorce will be final in July. This has been the single most painful and confusing experience in my life. Thankfully I don't have any children to drag into this mess... I was married for 15 years to somebody I loved with all my heart...but sadly mental illness and emotional abuse slowly tore us apart.

What have I learned?

** Getting married at a young age was a terrible decision.
** I now recognize the signs of mental illness and emotional abuse in other people.
** Going to counseling / therapy is a very positive experience, life changing.
** I will no longer stand for nor be a part of a dysfunctional relationship.
** You can't "fix" another person. You will kill yourself trying.
** I am much stronger than I ever realized.

I don't know if I'll ever get married again... I'm back in therapy now learning how to navigate through the next half of my life. I don't believe my marriage was a mistake, I loved my husband with all my heart and I still cherish the memories we created together. But I don't ever want to go through this again.


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## The Unseen (Oct 26, 2010)

My ex husband actually taught me a lot about love. A lot about what it isn't. He was an ISTJ, and me INTP, and we really never had much of anything in common. I look back on it now and I can't remember why we stayed together so long (almost 7 years), what it was that drew us together in the first place, or why we even got married. I wasn't even physically attracted to him.

We were great as friends, but the intimacy was severely lacking. We never really connected sexually or emotionally. It was fine for awhile, I think we both preferred it that way, but you can't have a lasting marriage when the person you are married to treats you like a room mate, not a spouse. I couldn't at least.

I think that perhaps that's why we did stay together so long, was just our level of lazy comfort with one another. It was a marriage of _companionship_, not love. We were just good friends more than anything else.

It eventually took it's toll, and he cheated on me, and that was the end of our marriage. I knew he was cheating, and I honestly didn't care, because I didn't love him. But the worst part of the entire ordeal was that when he came clean to me, and admitted his adultery, was the day I was released from the hospital from a 10 day stay (I had Spinal Meningitis), and he _called _to tell me, couldn't tell me to my face, he _called_, and confessed, and then told me that he had moved my things out of our home while I was hospitalized and that my things were at my mothers. He never even visited me while I was sick. 

That still to this day remains the cruelest thing that anyone has ever done to me. I don't think it will ever be topped.

But still to this day, I've never cried over all that he did to me, or the way he treated me throughout our marriage. I really didn't care I guess. I was just going through the motions of it all, not really present, or paying attention to my situation. Not loving him has a lot to do with that. I was already over it before it was over, so when it all went down, the strongest emotion I felt was _relief_. The weight I had taken off of my shoulders felt amazing.

Anyways...

Currently I'm dating an ESTP, who quite possibly is the best thing that's ever happened to me. I know now what it's like to love with my whole heart, and how great that feels to be able to trust someone enough with my heart to not break it, which is a *huge *mountain to overcome for an INTP. He teaches me something new about myself everyday, and that's one of the many things I love about our relationship. We learn together, and we grow _together_.

We've been dating nearly 2 years now, live together, and have a son together, and I want nothing else in the world but to be his wife, and him my husband.

I told him the other day that if he doesn't start thinking about buying me a ring, that I'm going to buy one instead and propose to him. He said while laughing, "You better not!" Was more in the sense of "How dare you try to steal my thunder!"

I know he thought I was joking. In a few more months he may find out just how serious I am, lol.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

NaughyChimp said:


> This is all very interesting. I've never been married, but this site was mentioned on another PerC thread and it made me think of our discussion, here. I Live In a Sexless Marriage | Group with Personal Stories, Forums and Chat


Sex is a decent barometer for most marriages. If it's non-existent, there's typically problems if you're both not 80 years old.


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## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

I've started to wonder if the reason so many marriages end up in divorce is that one or both of the spouces gets it in their head that they've got a life time contract so they don't need to support the other. It might just be from my experience where my soon to be ex, an infj, has been ferociously pro marriage and doesn't want a divorce. But she wont' budge an inch to try and fix our relationship. I don't understand how you think you can fight for marriage but not fix the relationship. It's madness.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

DMack said:


> I should've married an ISFP.


 I'm not trying to be snarky... just genuinely curious. Why do you think that marrying an ISFP would have made such a difference?


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## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Don't get married?


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## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

NaughyChimp said:


> I'm not trying to be snarky... just genuinely curious. Why do you think that marrying an ISFP would have made such a difference?


A type 6 ISFP is the type that is the closest to my "ideal" match. I married and INFJ and I'm pretty certain that there's no future between me an that type.

As to why? Lots of reasons, I'm an ENTP but I bond through doing things more than talking. Not that I don't enjoy a good conversation or even better a debate, it's that it doesn't evoke emotional attachment for me.

Also I'm goofy, and like to be with 1 girl. I'm also facinated by an ISFP's artistic talents, it's part of me that I enjoy but is extremely difficult to develop. I'd like to share it with someone.

There's other reasons, but it is more than I feel like posting atm.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> #1 lesson for men:
> 
> Get a watertight prenup!


In my experience, I have seen most wives take care of their husbands in many ways, and they invest -everything- most hours of the day, into the marriage. Say a woman is a home-maker, and she does all of the cooking, cleaning, nurturing, even if its only for her husband -- those things are a legitimate job, but hows she getting paid? She takes care of half his life so he only has to work, and be a loving husband, but the only money its pulling in is from him, now of course she deserves it because shes taking care of him. 

Now say several years go by, and her heart, soul, and very identity are invested in this life shes built with him, something happens, say he cheats, or say they just stop getting along -- well whats she supposed to do now? Just walk away with fucking nothing after devoting her time, _herself_ to this person for so long?

If a guy asked me to sign a fucking prenup, I would tell him to shove it up his ass. I can think of hard times even where someone is between careers, or say, has to move around the country for her spouses career.. and basically the only role there is to take care of what she can, and nurture him, and be supportive of his life. A divorce settlement is insurance.. insurance for people who give their all to someone and find their ass thrown out for whatever reason. Who on earth would take such a chance if not for some kind of insurance? Fuck that.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Marry for the right reasons.
Whatever problems I have in a dating relationship multiply it times 10 and then ask myself again do I want to marry this person.
If during our courtship we do not adequately utilize conflict resolution skills it's probably best to not progress any further.
Ask lots and lots of questions to determine if we have shared values, priorities, and relationship expectations.
Personality compatibility is important.
If his family exhibit clan mentality it is probably best to not progress any further
A partner with a direct, straightforward communication style would be best for me.
If I find that I can't be vulnerable and/or transparent, then it is best not to progress any further.


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## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

Promethea said:


> In my experience, I have seen most wives take care of their husbands in many ways, and they invest -everything- most hours of the day, into the marriage. Say a woman is a home-maker, and she does all of the cooking, cleaning, nurturing, even if its only for her husband -- those things are a legitimate job, but hows she getting paid? She takes care of half his life so he only has to work, and be a loving husband, but the only money its pulling in is from him, now of course she deserves it because shes taking care of him.
> 
> Now say several years go by, and her heart, soul, and very identity are invested in this life shes built with him, something happens, say he cheats, or say they just stop getting along -- well whats she supposed to do now? Just walk away with fucking nothing after devoting her time, _herself_ to this person for so long?
> 
> If a guy asked me to sign a fucking prenup, I would tell him to shove it up his ass. I can think of hard times even where someone is between careers, or say, has to move around the country for her spouses career.. and basically the only role there is to take care of what she can, and nurture him, and be supportive of his life. A divorce settlement is insurance.. insurance for people who give their all to someone and find their ass thrown out for whatever reason. Who on earth would take such a chance if not for some kind of insurance? Fuck that.


I agree but also disagree. A prenup shouldn't keep a woman from being supported and leave her with nothing. But If I was to find a millionaire woman and marry her I wouldn't expect a 50%/50% split if we didn't work out.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

DMack said:


> I agree but also disagree. A prenup shouldn't keep a woman from being supported and leave her with nothing. But If I was to find a millionaire woman and marry her I wouldn't expect a 50%/50% split if we didn't work out.


Thats the lifestyle you get used to though, and you're the one supporting half of it. Try living your life with a much smaller budget after growing accustomed to living a certain way- I suspect it would suck bighairyballs.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Sex is a decent barometer for most marriages. If it's non-existent, there's typically problems if you're both not 80 years old.


 Well, I respectfully half-disagree. I agree that if sex is non-existent, there are probably other, big problems in the relationship. However, if the sex is great, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't big problems lurking elsewhere in the relationship. In other words, I'd say that if the sex is frequent and fun that doesn't necessarily mean much but if the sex is dreadful or non-existent, then that means a lot.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

NaughyChimp said:


> Well, I respectfully half-disagree. I agree that if sex is non-existent, there are probably other, big problems in the relationship. However, if the sex is great, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't big problems lurking elsewhere in the relationship. In other words, I'd say that if the sex is frequent and fun that doesn't necessarily mean much but if the sex is dreadful or non-existent, then that means a lot.


... And if the couple are both asexuals or have relatively low libidos...? :tongue:


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

GoodOldDreamer said:


> ... And if the couple are both asexuals or have relatively low libidos...? :tongue:


I know, I know... I've been reading the Asexuality Thread and I understand that there are happily married asexuals/ folks with low libidos. That's why I used a qualifier, "there are _probably_ other, big problems." And I stand by my point, "if the sex is dreadful or non-existent, then that means a lot;" one of those meanings could be that the couple is asexual :tongue:


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

I love this thread. As a woman who has been divorced twice and remarried for a third time to a man who also had been divorced twice. We are on our third marriage together.

I have so much to add but I have to add it tomorrow because I can hardly keep my eyes open or form a sentence that is worth typing. lol


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

This is what I learned from the first divorce. It wasn't him that needed to change, it was me. I needed to learn to be more accepting and more open. I was 17 years old when I got married. I had already graduated high school and i wasn't pregnant. I was just "living in the moment". I may sometimes speak badly of my ex, he is a very different man, but if I had met him later in life I think I would have known better how to love him for who he is rather try to change him. I spent the first two years chasing him and the next 6 years trying to get away from him. We have two children together. The grass is always greener on the otherside--so you think. So, I learned acceptance and think before you leap. I learned that change comes from within me -- not someone else. He was stable, loyal, and uhhh.....yeah...he was stable and loyal. lol OH! And I learned to take the trash out on my own and how to have great sex with myself. haha! 

My second husband. Now there is a 5 year trip or was it 6 years? I can't remember. I was drawn to his charisma. My previous was so quiet and laid back. My second husband is charismatic, extroverted, funny, and a take charge sort of person. It was the most oppressive time in my life. It was like trudging through quicksand. One thing I can say is that at least with the first husband I had sort of toughened up my emotional side little so then I was maybe better capable of handling the second husband. If I had the second one first then I probably would have killed myself or we may have killed one another, which ever came first. We had a very volatile relationship. Anyway, I learned from that relationship that I am way tougher than I ever thought I could be. I learned to stand up for myself. I learned to be independent and how to say "eff you" and not feel bad about it. I learned that I am capable of demanding and expecting to be respected and to not settle for anything less than that. I learned that not everyone can be trusted. I also learned that people can be a product of their environment. I have never seen a more hurt or wounded person than my ex-husband but nobody else would know it because he so successful in hiding it. It is hard to be a constant cheerleader for someone who can never please himself or was never pleased with those around him. We have one child together. I guess I just stated stuff I learned from the relationship. What I learned from that divorce is that I am resilient and very independent. I am focused and determined. 

Anyway, out of those two relationships I have learned first and foremost to never take for granted what my current husband is. He is such gentle man, he is honest, hard working, focused, determined, and stable. I try so hard not to take any of that for granted. It can be easy to do. It can be easy to take advantage of someone who is nice but I know where I came from before.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

NaughyChimp said:


> Well, I respectfully half-disagree. I agree that if sex is non-existent, there are probably other, big problems in the relationship. However, if the sex is great, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't big problems lurking elsewhere in the relationship. In other words, I'd say that if the sex is frequent and fun that doesn't necessarily mean much but if the sex is dreadful or non-existent, then that means a lot.


My statement was not absolute ("decent barometer"), so what you're saying doesn't really conflict, however I'd add that in my experience unhealthy marriages simply don't tend to have "great sex". If the relationship is sick, the sex tends to be infrequent and/or dissatisfying.


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## cityofcircuits (Nov 8, 2010)

I learned that people can change.
That the person you married, can turn into something else a year later.
And than you wonder how you missed this quality of change in someone and missed all the red flags.
Maybe you ignored them cuz you had this idea of marriage or love and thought things would work out in the long run.
I learned what it was like to be young and naive and foolish.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> If the relationship is sick, the sex tends to be infrequent and/or dissatisfying.


 Interesting and no doubt, true; this has always been my personal experience in relationships, too. However, I have quite a few acquaintanes whose marriages dissolved in a mess of rage, screaming matches, and fantastic make-up/ hate sex.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

After watching the discussion between @%1;[email protected]%1;, I guess sex is not the indicator. :shocked: So here is my conclusion: Marriage is the #1 cause of divorce. If you are married you are at least twice as likely to get a divorce over those who never marry. 

Sorry, can't deny facts folks. Use marriage with extreme caution.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

pinkrasputin said:


> After watching the discussion between redmanXNTP andNaughyChimp, I guess sex is not the indicator. :shocked: So here is my conclusion: Marriage is the #1 cause of divorce. If you are married you are at least twice as likely to get a divorce over those who never marry.
> 
> Sorry, can't deny facts folks. Use marriage with extreme caution.


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

cityofcircuits said:


> I learned that people can change.
> That the person you married, can turn into something else a year later.
> And than you wonder how you missed this quality of change in someone and missed all the red flags.
> Maybe you ignored them cuz you had this idea of marriage or love and thought things would work out in the long run.
> I learned what it was like to be young and naive and foolish.


Love can be blind. It is amazing what we can refuse to see when we are so caught up in this "fairy tale". Then, as you said, you stay just based on that same "fairy tale". Like if you stay long enough somehow that white picket fence is going to build it self.


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

Promethea said:


> In my experience, I have seen most wives take care of their husbands in many ways, and they invest -everything- most hours of the day, into the marriage. Say a woman is a home-maker, and she does all of the cooking, cleaning, nurturing, even if its only for her husband -- those things are a legitimate job, but hows she getting paid? She takes care of half his life so he only has to work, and be a loving husband, but the only money its pulling in is from him, now of course she deserves it because shes taking care of him.
> 
> 
> Now say several years go by, and her heart, soul, and very identity are invested in this life shes built with him, something happens, say he cheats, or say they just stop getting along -- well whats she supposed to do now? Just walk away with fucking nothing after devoting her time, _herself_ to this person for so long?
> ...


Not me. I have been married twice before and I certainly don't want any "pity" money. If I wanted to be taken care of I would have stayed married. I refuse to give them the pleasure of feeling like they contribute to my well-being or happiness through their money.

Money, in my eyes, equals control. I dropped all ties to dependence as soon as I possibly could. 

When he said "I'm so sorry I want a divorce, but here let me help you out financially" I said "fuck you". I should have taken the money and burned it in his front yard. 

My view is a bit unconventional though. My dependence on someone is a privilege that must be earned, otherwise of with their heads and their paychecks!


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Tulipgarden said:


> Love can be blind.


Oddly enough, so is masturbation now that I think about it. I guess it's a no-win situation.


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

redmanXNTP said:


> Oddly enough, so is masturbation now that I think about it. I guess it's a no-win situation.


<----Scratches her head. 

I am gonna have to think about this one for a bit cause why would it be blind? I don't think I can even respond the way I want which is going to make me have to think even harder. I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying before I pop off. No pun intended. lol!


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Tulipgarden said:


> <----Scratches her head.
> 
> I am gonna have to think about this one for a bit cause why would it be blind? I don't think I can even respond the way I want which is going to make me have to think even harder. I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying before I pop off. No pun intended. lol!


Don't think about it too much. That's what the nice men in the white coats always tell me and, besides, I couldn't live with myself if I knew I ruined your weekend.


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

redmanXNTP said:


> Don't think about it too much. That's what the nice men in the white coats always tell me and, besides, I couldn't live with myself if I knew I ruined your weekend.


No, no, masturbation *makes* you blind. And gives you hairy palms. 

Since I have neither, either they ubiquitous 'they' or I is doing it wrong. :laughing:


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

redmanXNTP said:


> Don't think about it too much. That's what the nice men in the white coats always tell me and, besides, I couldn't live with myself if I knew I ruined your weekend.



No way you're gonna ruin my weekend.  I'm still going think about it, though.


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

Elizindrhythm said:


> No, no, masturbation *makes* you blind. And gives you hairy palms.
> 
> Since I have neither, either they ubiquitous 'they' or I is doing it wrong. :laughing:


Oh my goodness, I get it now! Hahaha! I swear I am not blonde. I think too much is my problem.


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

Tulipgarden said:


> Oh my goodness, I get it now! Hahaha! I swear I am not blonde. I think too much is my problem.


I know what you mean about thinking too much. But better to think too much than too little, right? :wink:


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

When an NT man (or woman) is being very cautious about things and the woman is saying, "Oh come on, let your guard down...let yourself fall in love"...this thread is a good explanation of why he wants to take things slowly. He knows that if he rushes it, he could end up making the biggest mistake of his life. Whenever a woman implies that I should "just let myself fall" I always think, "Why? So we rush into marriage and then realize that we made a huge mistake that will affect us for the rest of our lives?" 

Next time the person you're dating is trying to go slow...see the wisdom in that. I say that respectfully to you all, as I've never been married like many of you have. But anytime that I myself have tried to rush things...well, it's just not wise. Relationships are a process. They aren't "oooh look you're shiny and smart...let's get hitched tomorrow!"


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Some really good points in this thread.



DMack said:


> 1: Never marry someone you need to improve/change for you to have a healthy relationship. No matter how sympathetic you are, no matter how easy their problems seem to fix. *If you couldn't spend the rest of your life with them exactly as they are do not, I repeat, do not say "I do."*


I think this is very important for both partners to assess. Why do people ever disillusion themselves by thinking that they're going to change someone around to fit some "ideal mold" that they've developed in their head? That baffles me, even though I've done it myself.  If the person isn't right for you _right now, _then it's not the right relationship.



Fizz said:


> My mother made the mistake of trying to win my siblings and myself over to her side. It worked for a little bit but I saw through the bullshit and most of my siblings rarely communicate with or see her very often. My father is a lot more popular with us. He tried to remain neutral and didn't badmouth her like she did to him.


This is so important. My parents divorced when I was young and I grew up listening to them both bad-mouth each other. For crying out loud, _you guys chose each other_, not me! I don't want to hear it. Kids will always love both of their parents and when you bad mouth the other parent in front of the child, you end up looking....well....less than than optimal in the eyes of child. I also see this with someone else in my life. Her mom bad mouths her father...and when I hear the mom badmouthing the dad I just think, "Do you really think this is helping your case or your long-term relationship with your daughter?" It's detrimental, selfish, and shortsighted.



pinkrasputin said:


> I learned it can take years to really know someone.


Yes, yes, yes. If you've ever known someone for 2 or more years, you can look back and see how you learned some "new stuff" about them in Year 2 that you didn't know/see in Year 1. Very important to let things develop naturally and at their own pace. So often people want to magically skip this "getting to know" stage...but it's vital for both parties.



> I learned it is important to establish your own inner voice first before ever co-habitating with someone. Because one day, it will eventually come out. And once you've established your own inner voice, your partner may no longer like who you've become and all you became was "grown up". And once you are grown up, you may wonder why the hell you chose this person and why have they gotten into the habit of speaking up for you?


Yes, for instance, if you are an INFP who keeps your Fi "under wraps", it's a good idea to go ahead and let that out to see if your partner can accept it and learn to love it about you. If you wait until 6 months into the marriage to have your first Fi vent, then your partner is in for a very big and unsuspecting surprise. Like, "Where in the WORLD did that come from and who are you?" Same with other introverted functions that are largely "under the surface", like my own Ti. On the outside, I'm very Ne/Fe, happy go lucky and easy to get along with. But, once you see my inner Ti revealed, you're probably either going to love it or else you'll find it very prickly and difficult to live with. It does nobody any good for me to keep that side of myself hidden until Year 3 of the marriage. Afterall, it's a huge part of who I am and how I operate/think on a daily basis. I'm doing my future wife a huge disservice if I never fully reveal my inner self to her during the dating stages.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Eleventeenth said:


> This is so important. My parents divorced when I was young and I grew up listening to them both bad-mouth each other. For crying out loud, _you guys chose each other_, not me! I don't want to hear it. Kids will always love both of their parents and when you bad mouth the other parent in front of the child, you end up looking....well....less than than optimal in the eyes of child. I also see this with someone else in my life. Her mom bad mouths her father...and when I hear the mom badmouthing the dad I just think, "Do you really think this is helping your case or your long-term relationship with your daughter?" It's detrimental, selfish, and shortsighted.


I think some parents need to blow off some steam and think that telling the child their "side" of the story is beneficial. My mother wants to feel vindicated in any implication that the divorce was her fault. She still badmouths my father to this day and she hasn't seen him in years. It's probably been ten years since they had any direct communication. She tells any new in-laws about how terrible he is but ends up looking like an ass herself.

My siblings and I tell my father what my mother says and he just laughs it off because he knows how ridiculous it is. He still wishes that we would love our mother but it's sort of hard to do when she really hasn't shown it back. My dad always tried to remain neutral, he knew better than to badmouth at all. Now he's the one who gets most of the attention and holidays are planned around him.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Fizz said:


> I think some parents need to blow off some steam and think that telling the child their "side" of the story is beneficial. My mother wants to feel vindicated in any implication that the divorce was her fault. She still badmouths my father to this day and she hasn't seen him in years. It's probably been ten years since they had any direct communication. She tells any new in-laws about how terrible he is but ends up looking like an ass herself.
> 
> My siblings and I tell my father what my mother says and he just laughs it off because he knows how ridiculous it is. He still wishes that we would love our mother but it's sort of hard to do when she really hasn't shown it back. *My dad always tried to remain neutral, he knew better than to badmouth at all. Now he's the one who gets most of the attention and holidays are planned around him.*


Yep, I think that's usually how it ends up. The one doing the badmouthing ends up pushing people away. Nobody wants to be around it.


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## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

Eleventeenth said:


> I think this is very important for both partners to assess. Why do people ever disillusion themselves by thinking that they're going to change someone around to fit some "ideal mold" that they've developed in their head? That baffles me, even though I've done it myself.  If the person isn't right for you _right now, _then it's not the right relationship.


I think it's fine for you to be in a relationship with someone who you need to work things through with. As long as both sides are willing and working on it. But don't sign a marraige liscense, hell don't even propose or say yes untill they're at a point you could live with them unchanged for the rest of your life.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

cityofcircuits said:


> I learned that people can change.
> That the person you married, can turn into something else a year later.





DMack said:


> Never marry someone you need to improve/change for you to have a healthy relationship. No matter how sympathetic you are, no matter how easy their problems seem to fix. If you couldn't spend the rest of your life with them exactly as they are do not, I repeat, do not say "I do."


Thes quotations highlight something that terrifies me about marriage. You can't count on your spouse remaining the same over the decades, nor can you count on your spouse changing in ways that you might want.


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## cityofcircuits (Nov 8, 2010)

It's freightening sure, like anything you take a chance on. Some things affect you more than others. I would say marrying the right or wrong person is highly ranked. There is that chance that the person you marry changes into something worse over time. That can happen with anyone considering no one is perfect.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

In the most happiest of marriages that last a life time, it is said that individuals will change 40+ times. Think about those people married from 20-80 years old. Happy marriages aren't about ceasing change. It is about how you negotiate those transitions, make compromises, and are open to your partner's growth and change.


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

NaughyChimp said:


> Thes quotations highlight something that terrifies me about marriage. You can't count on your spouse remaining the same over the decades, nor can you count on your spouse changing in ways that you might want.


But then again, they can't count on you staying the same either. And seriously - how boring would it be to never change? Think about the difference in who you are between 15 and 20. If you were to freeze you and your spouse at 15 and be that way for the rest of your life... what kind of fresh hell would that be? 

As PinkRasputin says, it's not the changing, it's how you respond to the changes. Also, it's what decisions you make about you as a unit versus those you make as individuals. 

Part of the problem with my marriage is that we did not develop in areas we shared, we developed in areas where we differed. He is an INTP, and I am an ENFP. He hated going out and being with others, so we didn't do that. He was interested in computers and spent a lot of time learning how to program, etc. I was interested in history and writing, and I got a job that let me focus on that - out of town. Since I wasn't getting my E fed through the marital unit, I got it done through work and stopped bringing any energy home. His T did not lend itself to romance, my F withered and died from lack of attention. Thus, after 14 years, we were not getting our needs met at home, leading to a zombie marriage. 

If we had been smart, we would have worked on focusing on where we could meet each other's needs and found ways to strengthen our marital unit. Would have been hard, don't know if it would have worked. But it would have been better than that cold, grey hell.


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## DMack (Aug 16, 2011)

Elizindrhythm said:


> If we had been smart, we would have worked on focusing on where we could meet each other's needs and found ways to strengthen our marital unit. Would have been hard, don't know if it would have worked. But it would have been better than that cold, grey hell.


Yup. This nails it on the head. A wedding isn't an end to your search for love, it's a beginning to a lot of work. I'm not 100% certain where I stand on relegion at the moment, but the New Testiment's take on spousal responsibility really resonates with me at the moment. 1 Cor 7 talks about how the wife's body is the husbands and the husband's body is the wife and sex should be consistant and regular. Eph 5 talks about how a husband is supposed to have sacrifical love for the wife and the wife is supposed to be submissive to the direction husband.

This bar is insanely high for both partners, but when I look back on how my marriage failed these two things were at the core. My wife had no respect for the direction I wanted to take the family, none for the hours I worked trying to get us ahead and no gratitude for the hard times I helped her through. Also she was an extreme demisexual that seemed to be repulsed by any sexuality outside of a hand job.

So if your marriage feels dull and you'd have a hard time calling your spouce a partner in your life do something NOW!. Don't wait untill there's problems.


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## Elizindrhythm (Mar 30, 2012)

DMack said:


> A wedding isn't an end to your search for love, it's a beginning to a lot of work. I'm not 100% certain where I stand on relegion at the moment, but the New Testiment's take on spousal responsibility really resonates with me at the moment. 1 Cor 7 talks about how the wife's body is the husbands and the husband's body is the wife and sex should be consistant and regular. Eph 5 talks about how a husband is supposed to have sacrifical love for the wife and the wife is supposed to be submissive to the direction husband.
> 
> This bar is insanely high for both partners, but when I look back on how my marriage failed these two things were at the core. My wife had no respect for the direction I wanted to take the family, none for the hours I worked trying to get us ahead and no gratitude for the hard times I helped her through. Also she was an extreme demisexual that seemed to be repulsed by any sexuality outside of a hand job.
> 
> So if your marriage feels dull and you'd have a hard time calling your spouce a partner in your life do something NOW!. Don't wait untill there's problems.


EXACTLY. All of the above. 

I am glad that you shared these verses from 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. Too many people focus on 1 Corinthians 13 (Love is patient, etc.) in their wedding ceremonies, but not any of the other verses about relationships. 

I know a lot of people, women in particular, get beyond pissed off with Paul's directions about women being submissive to their husbands, but don't read/talk about the instructions to men to love their wives *sacrificially* - not men ruling women, but a mutual sense of giving up part of the self to the marriage unit. If you are not able to sacrifice part of yourself for the benefit of your partner and/or the marriage, then don't marry. At the same time, if you are not able to keep the sacrifice a) mutual AND b) partial, don't marry. You are neither your spouse's clone nor slave. 

I have to admit, I had to look up demisexual, as I have never heard that term. That strikes me as a very difficult situation to live with if you have a strong sexual drive. I can see where the lack of desire, lack of respect and lack of gratitude all could re-enforce each other to create a situation where she could not respond to you in any positive manner. And that, my friend, is a really, really shitty situation to live with. (I do not know your ex or your situation, but my ex displayed many of the same characteristics and my shrink has diagnosed the relationship as verbally and emotionally abusive and neglectful. ) I hope that you find someone who can see all of the wonderful qualities in you and lets you know how much you are loved and appreciated.


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## Mr_Mug (Mar 19, 2012)

I'm not divorced yet as we can't afford it. But one thing I learnt about marriage is never to propose just to try and make her happy. Big mistake. It will only make her happy in the short term. Only do it if it is what you really believe will benefit you both.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

Promethea said:


> In my experience, I have seen most wives take care of their husbands in many ways, and they invest -everything- most hours of the day, into the marriage. Say a woman is a home-maker, and she does all of the cooking, cleaning, nurturing, even if its only for her husband -- those things are a legitimate job, but hows she getting paid? She takes care of half his life so he only has to work, and be a loving husband, but the only money its pulling in is from him, now of course she deserves it because shes taking care of him.
> 
> Now say several years go by, and her heart, soul, and very identity are invested in this life shes built with him, something happens, say he cheats, or say they just stop getting along -- well whats she supposed to do now? Just walk away with fucking nothing after devoting her time, _herself_ to this person for so long?
> 
> If a guy asked me to sign a fucking prenup, I would tell him to shove it up his ass. I can think of hard times even where someone is between careers, or say, has to move around the country for her spouses career.. and basically the only role there is to take care of what she can, and nurture him, and be supportive of his life. A divorce settlement is insurance.. insurance for people who give their all to someone and find their ass thrown out for whatever reason. Who on earth would take such a chance if not for some kind of insurance? Fuck that.


If a guy wouldn't sign a pre-nup, I'd be out the door, relationship over, in a heartbeat. Fuck. That. Shit. If he's not adult and fair enough to come to an explicit arrangement that we both find acceptable - to put in writing what it is that we would and would not "owe" each other in case of divorce - then he's either too naive or too greedy for me. NEXT!


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## MelissaC (May 23, 2012)

NaughyChimp said:


> I'd love to hear from people who have divorced.
> 
> What did you learn about love, relationships, yourself, society-at-large? Either from the marriage that ended in divorce/ the person you divorced, or from the divorce itself?
> 
> Thanks.


I learned to see that relationship patterns I'd been repeating since childhood, and learned to stare those monsters down and be done with it. (Or at least begin to try). I learned that marriage is not a high enough priority in my life to justify settling. I learned that I can't fix people. 

Through my divorce I've come to acquire self-respect I hadn't had before, that furthermore didn't even appreciate I was lacking in. I've realized that marriage for the sake of companionship, for someone with whom to share responsibilities and a household, isn't ideal for me. For many perhaps it is. For many that's enough. 

On a more cynical note I learned to view marriage as an iconoclastic tradition with generally little inherent value. On a more optimistic note, I learned to appreciate and respect those who have been married for a long time, like my grandparents. 

I'm not averse to hard work in a relationship. If I happen to come across the "right" man I will move mountains to make a life-long relationship work. I will allow them to hold that mirror up to my monster's face, and I will become an infinitely better person because of it. That wasn't even an option in my late marriage. It never would have been conducive to either of our well-being, no matter how much bloodsweattears I poured into it. 

I learned that there is a lot to be said for fundamental compatibility.


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## sunshine2208 (Jun 6, 2012)

Inphamous said:


> I think alot of them were just tought that way. This is the age of entitlement after all ; ). Personaly i see no advantage at all to marriage other than for the dependant if they want more than i hink they deserve in which case we dont need to be together anyway lol. In all fairness many men believe a women is basically thier slave too which baffles me.
> 
> Oh i have a good ridiculous analogy for those wanting a portion of their spouses belongings. Its like saying "I dont wanna be with this man any more but there is a part of him that i want so can i just get that and leave the rest? Yea ill take his testicles please." lol


I am always amazed when women think they deserve half of their ex's 401K money. I mean really??? What did they do to deserve that? 

When my ex and I were going through a divorce (which I requested), I made more money than him. I gave him a list of the things I wanted to keep which was only ~25% of our belongings (even though most of it was mine going into the relationship). He came back and said "No...I think I deserve _everything_. I'm going to call a lawyer." I told him I would be more than happy to call a lawyer for him b/c if we got a lawyer involved, I would get at least half! He backed down and took 75% of what I was willing to leave behind. Greedy F'er.


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## Inphamous (May 10, 2011)

sunshine2208 said:


> I am always amazed when women think they deserve half of their ex's 401K money. I mean really??? What did they do to deserve that?
> 
> When my ex and I were going through a divorce (which I requested), I made more money than him. I gave him a list of the things I wanted to keep which was only ~25% of our belongings (even though most of it was mine going into the relationship). He came back and said "No...I think I deserve _everything_. I'm going to call a lawyer." I told him I would be more than happy to call a lawyer for him b/c if we got a lawyer involved, I would get at least half! He backed down and took 75% of what I was willing to leave behind. Greedy F'er.


While i think its wrong reguardless of gender to expect things from a spouse your leaving, atleast i can understand where the desire comes crom for women from an evolutionary standpoint of them at one time being nessaccarily dependant. When a man does it, its both greedy and even against what i would think his evolutionary tendancies would be lol. So sad


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## sunshine2208 (Jun 6, 2012)

Inphamous said:


> While i think its wrong reguardless of gender to expect things from a spouse your leaving, atleast i can understand where the desire comes crom for women from an evolutionary standpoint of them at one time being nessaccarily dependant. When a man does it, its both greedy and even against what i would think his evolutionary tendancies would be lol. So sad


Agree... LOL 

Maybe us INTJs just see the world differently than everyone else. Oh wait....I think that goes without saying!!! haha


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## lek373 (May 25, 2012)

P_G said:


> A brief summary especially for N-types. Marry late when some attempt at self-discovery has been made. There may be some truth to the NT-NF or NF-NF match, so that means probability of success at dating likely to be 2 in 10 based on distribution statistics.
> 
> 2 marriages? One to breed and one at mid-life or later for growing old together.
> 
> NTs seems to be unfairly biased against, they need to mature before they can appreciate the NFs. And NFs can swing both ways with NTs and NFs. Jealous


Wait, what does this mean? Are you saying NF's are capable of understanding NT's and appreciate them but NT's are incapable of this until they mature emotionally? What is the 2 marriages thing you were saying? Sorry I am confused but want to understand this?


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## Inphamous (May 10, 2011)

sunshine2208 said:


> Agree... LOL
> 
> Maybe us INTJs just see the world differently than everyone else. Oh wait....I think that goes without saying!!! haha


Ussually people think im being cruel lol. 
Hate to derail but i had a genuin INTJ situation about a month ago when a superior at work who i thought i got along with well made it know that he was very upset with me over me disagreeing with him about non work related matters lol. For ex: he said spanish was the most spoken language, i said is was manderan but was. Ot mean about it or anyhing. He thought i was talking down to him lol.

Anyway yea i feel for anyone that went into marriage undefaulse impressions given by the people that should have informed them better.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

sunshine2208 said:


> Agree... LOL
> 
> Maybe us INTJs just see the world differently than everyone else. Oh wait....I think that goes without saying!!! haha


 Um, no... if you read my and @Tulipgarden 's entries in this thread, I think you'll see that we're pretty much share your views, even though we (ENFPs) only share 1 "letter" with you INTJs. : )


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## sunshine2208 (Jun 6, 2012)

NaughyChimp said:


> Um, no... if you read my and @_Tulipgarden_ 's entries in this thread, I think you'll see that we're pretty much share your views, even though we (ENFPs) only share 1 "letter" with you INTJs. : )



Don't worry, I know we are not the only ones who think this way. It was just a sarcastic INTJ joke. ;-)


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## Inphamous (May 10, 2011)

Ones actuall opinion on this matter is more like determined by thier environment and upbringing while hier type probably has more to do with how they express it.


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## Tulipgarden (Apr 5, 2012)

I see this with my husband's ex wife, now. She took half the retirement, gets alimony and child support plus whatever else we pay on top if it. Blew through the 100k without even a thought to where she would be in 5 years and now alimony will end, child support will be reduced in less than a years time and she is way worse off than she was to begin with when she wanted to "find her dream". She is going to be scrambling big time to make it all work out. 

I don't want someone else to dictate my happiness by their money. For me, entitlement has the possibility of leaving me empty and sad, robs me of resilience, and exhausts my ability to attain independence.


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## Inphamous (May 10, 2011)

I applaud all you independant working women out there. I see no reason why any person of either gender should be giving up working while in a relationship before having kids. It is simply pointless.


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## entpIdeas (Jun 6, 2011)

Mine was very simple. One day the marriage was over. I knew this at once when I understood that a marriage is a mutual decision. There is nothing at all you can do to influence someones opionion of you, nor that they can do to influence your opinion of them when there is something lacking or amiss. It was at that point of realization I became aware that it was over and that my life was being wasted. I was more concerned about how I could have made such a poor decision in the first place. Neither of us took anything from the other. I pursued an education, career, home and family independent of him.


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## P_G (Jun 8, 2012)

lek373 said:


> Wait, what does this mean? Are you saying NF's are capable of understanding NT's and appreciate them but NT's are incapable of this until they mature emotionally? What is the 2 marriages thing you were saying? Sorry I am confused but want to understand this?


Yes to part 1, at least for me. NFs are supposed to be inherently nurturing and would most probably be able to understand NTs and nurture the relationship well. However, when I was young, I was extremely narcissistic and buried myself in work to achieve "recognition". I veered towards ending relationships that threaten to undermine my performance.

The marriages part is based on marriage satisfaction survey based on the 4 types and the perception of those surveyed.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

bump! interesting thread but i have nothing to contribute xD


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## ablyxa (Mar 3, 2013)

To be less trusting. Your partner can turn and be your worst enemy.


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## NaughyChimp (Jun 20, 2011)

ablyxa said:


> To be less trusting. Your partner can turn and be your worst enemy.


 Interesting. But, if you're trying to create a strong relationship that will not end in divorce, doesn't that require huge levels of trust?


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I've never had an _actual_ divorce, but I spent seven years living with someone I called my husband. In our community, we were known as a married couple, and even our most religious friends saw us as such. I learned some things from that situation despite never going through the irritating legal process of dividing up possessions. In hindsight, I'm very glad I never signed anything saying I was legally bound to him.

I learned that people aren't always as nice as they seem at first, and that becoming more self-sacrificing to set a positive example for someone who didn't respect me was just a painful waste of time. There is no level of niceness that can magically heal someone who is bitter and hateful, or change a person back to what he seemed like before he got comfortable enough to reveal his flaws.

I learned that it isn't always possible to reason with someone, even if he is an NT type, or to win a conflict by figuring out his framework of beliefs and finding paths within them that support my values. Anyone can change his foundations at any time to suit an agenda, or just use intimidation when he runs out of reasonable arguments. Being good at debating civilly will not increase my chances for peace with a partner who fights angrily with the intent of wounding me into submission. Such people should be avoided.

After having adapted myself to handle the demands of an unhealthy relationship, I found that the coping skills I developed for surviving conflicts with someone who couldn't be reasoned with were all obsolete or destructive when applied to healthy relationships. By the time I realized this, my positive conflict resolution skills from before the bad relationship were already forgotten and no longer came naturally to me, as they once had. After a few years of failed long-distance relationships, I finally started re-learning how to discuss disagreements without feeling instant hopelessness and frustration, and without my trained emotional reactions shutting down the possibility for a mutually satisfying resolution.

I learned that it is very important to make sure all of my partner's values are compatible with mine before getting into a relationship. When I first fell for my ex, he had shown signs of practicing size-discrimination when deciding which women were desirable, and I was naive enough to think I could show him in a single sentence why his tendency was not only unfair, but also self-sabotaging. I assumed a simple explanation was enough when dealing with a person who seemed reasonable and intelligent, but sometimes unacceptable prejudices are part of who a person is, and can't be explained away with sound arguments. He pretended to agree with my points temporarily, but his actions never reflected that supposed agreement. Years later, he still felt the same disgust toward fat girls, and ended up severely abusing me for not having the body type he thought I ought to have. I eventually found out he had only settled for me because he mistakenly thought he could trick me into getting thin for him by making me do a lot of physical labor, by restricting my diet, by threatening me, by shaming me, and by physically and emotionally torturing me for not changing my appearance. I was extremely physically active, did whatever he asked, ate a health-conscious diet, but I will always be fat. That doesn't change. When his plan failed, he punished me in horrible ways. There was a similar issue with my emotional sensitivity. He believed it was a flaw he could change by exposing me to enough pain that I would eventually become desensitized. That was an even worse disaster. 

So, I guess the most important thing I learned was that I had to find someone who didn't have any plans to "improve" me. I also learned that I needed to find someone who was already nice to me, who didn't have to be changed in order to be tolerable. He thought he could make me prettier, smarter, and less sensitive. I thought I could make him less superficial, less misogynistic, and less abusive. Our struggle to change each other almost killed both of us. He repeatedly threatened a murder-suicide situation, and I believe he would have gone through with it eventually if I hadn't left. 

I learned to stop seeing porn as a personal matter related to sexual freedom, and I started seeing it as something that affected the dynamics of a relationship for both partners. Now I don't tolerate it at all. Likewise, while I used to be more tolerant of all fetishes, I decided that certain fetishes can be signs of more serious problems, so I became suspicious about the more disturbing ones. 

I learned a lot about setting boundaries and became bolder about confronting people who say invalidating or unfair things. When I was with my ex, I used to try to figure out ways of winning by his rules, so I would accept any premise he would make such as "You decide how things make you feel and are responsible for your own emotions. If you can't handle my yelling, you are the one who needs to grow some balls," and I would just try to show that he was inconsistent, by saying something like, "If we are all responsible for how we feel, then it is wrong to blame me for your rage while simultaneously hating me for being hurt and for being afraid of you." This seemed like it should work but it generally just made him violent. Now, if someone made such a statement, I would say, "No! People affect each other, and we are responsible for treating each other respectfully." There would be no more looking for loopholes in someone else's flawed beliefs. I would state that the original idea was wrong rather than trying to work with it to make my needs fit into it. 

I learned to avoid getting trapped, by always preparing a way to escape. With the ex, I had to run from danger whenever I thought he might be about to try to kill me, so when I heard his tone change, I would casually try to put my shoes on without being noticed. I kept a backpack already full of necessities near the door. I tried to always have enough money in my purse to survive for a few days, and to have friends whose houses I could stay at if necessary. This was much harder than it seemed when I was with a person who controlled the finances and tried to isolate me from friends, but I learned that if I didn't have an escape plan, I could end up being trapped with him while he took out his anger on my body, or I could end up locked out in the snow in just my t-shirt, without shoes or food, having to awkwardly beg a neighbor for shelter. Having an escape plan was what finally allowed me to get away permanently. Even now that I am in a good marriage with someone who would never intentionally hurt me, I still feel inclined to stash some emergency money away just in case something goes wrong. It has come in handy a few times for reasons completely unrelated to the quality of my current marriage, such as when my husband and I were stranded in the city at night after the buses stopped running, or when we realized that the event we had just stood in line all morning to get into only accepted cash. It's always a good idea.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

snail said:


> In hindsight, I'm very glad I never signed anything saying I was legally bound to him.


I'm separated but not divorced yet, and that is what I regret doing.

No matter what, I'm not legally binding myself to anyone again; 

1)If you have more money that your partner you will get fucked in court. (Men tend to get fucked hard) 

2) In the UK you have to be separated for 2 years before you can get a divorce. Other countries have similar requirements.

3) It costs money to get a divorce.

Although the social and legal recognition and pressure does affect the level of commitment, it's really not worth the problems that arise if you break up.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

strangestdude said:


> I'm separated but not divorced yet, and that is what I regret doing.
> 
> No matter what, I'm not legally binding myself to anyone again;
> 
> ...


I'm sorry about the financial complications, and the stupid rule about two years of separation. I can't believe any country would intentionally make it harder to leave than it already is, even knowing that some people's safety might depend on making a quick, clean break. Such rules would only make life more difficult for survivors of domestic violence, or for people trying to protect their children. 

Until I found the wonderful husband I have now, I thought I would never get legally married to anyone, ever, because there aren't many benefits to being married, at least compared with the risks. Sure, it is a nice feeling when your relationship has social legitimacy, and it does make a sweet statement about feeling committed to each other, but that's about it. Being married makes it hard to leave if you need to. Until I met the man I am with now, I really didn't like the idea of being trapped that way if things ever went wrong, and I was against most of the traditional attitudes represented by the ceremony itself.

I am happy with my life right now, and very glad I stopped being afraid long enough to marry someone who is right for me, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone. I would never do it without feeling completely certain about someone.


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## Zombie Devil Duckie (Apr 11, 2012)

It's been just over 20 years since I divorced my 1st wife. 

I learned to hate my damn lawyer almost as much as that cheating cunt.


-ZDD


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## Marie Claire (Aug 12, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I'm separated but not divorced yet, and that is what I regret doing.
> 
> No matter what, I'm not legally binding myself to anyone again;
> 
> ...


Something that I find interesting is that it is so much easier to get married than to get divorced. Maybe society has it all wrong and should make the marriage process more difficult. Just a thought.


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