# Trickster functions in IN_J's



## NoirAddict (Oct 20, 2010)

I need to understand this better. (more helpful if you can illustrate with your own experiences)

Te = trickster function for INFJ's
Fe = trickster function for INTJ's


I always have this experience of my dad (ENTJ) constantly reordering my life, that I should abide by whatever stuff he tells me, "for it's for my own good, anyway". It can go from as complex and life-changing as he choosing my major in college, and as simple and mundane as him telling me, say, "you give that cup to your brother" even if he's the one nearer to the cup in the first place. It's like, when there's authority telling me exactly what to do in a straightforward manner, I feel abused and tricked. When in a bad mood, I would react impulsively, like, "I know what I'm doing", or "mind your own business!", which is a far cry from the usually good relationship terms I have with my dad. When I do this, I feel guilty instantly afterwards. Also, my first-ever impression of decisive, straightforward people, way back when I was young was that these people are always up for their own selfish ends, and didn't care for other people's needs, hence they should not be trusted easily.

Now, is that Te manifesting in the 7th position (trickster)?


INTJ's are also welcome in sharing their thoughts about Fe. :happy:


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

The part about feeling bound or put upon by an authority would fit. the rest of it would be that you would try to turn the tables and respond in kind to bind or get him off your back through Te somehow. Might not work well, since that is his "heroic" function. It would be a bad child (that's what the Trickster is) up against a good hero.


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## amnorvend (May 16, 2010)

The hallmark of the trickster is that it puts you in a double-bind. It treats the function with such irreverence that it makes you like it more. Think of House. Clearly House is a complete douchebag (trickster Fe - according to Beebe House is an ISTJ), and yet I can't help liking him. Same with Steven Colbert. It's easy to get the impression that Colbert is an INTP because his comedy is dripping with Ti, but pay attention and you'll notice he's using _trickster_ Ti (probably an ENFP). The phrase "likable idiot" comes to mind.

I'm not quite sure exactly what trickster Te looks like, but you'll recognize it some day. Bear in mind that the ego has a way of distorting reality to make it difficult to see your shadow, and discovering your trickster is tough. You may not quite be ready to see it, but the fact that you're looking says to me that you're on the right path.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Understanding the Archetypes involving the eight functions of type (Beebe model)



> TRICKSTER (bad child, clown)
> What it is about, and which functional perspective it encases:
> 
> Emotions connected with that of a bad child; either dealing with one, playing tricks and binding the ego, or then being one to get back at or rebel against the threat, will often come through the perspective. We feel "bound", and then, in a rebellious fashion, try to turn the tables by using it for deceiving, double-binding, trapping others
> ...


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

In socionics this function is called the "vulnerable" or "point of least resistance function". If you receive information pertaining to this element, it basically acts like a sore spot, which you have already noticed yourself in INTJ discussions about Fe or in your interactions with your ENTJ father.

Description of super-ego functions (which for INFJ are Te and Si):


> ... When a person's own interests are not sufficiently developed and people around him pressure him to be more competent with his Super-Ego functions, distress and disappointment result. The psyche is not able to channel energy through the Super-Ego functions long enough to achieve lasting results, which leads to disappointment, guilt, and even neuroses if the individual believes that the development of these functions is the measure of his worth as a person.
> The Super-Ego functions are the source of much self-consciousness. When among strangers or critical onlookers, people tend to suddenly become aware of the possible inadequacy of their Super-Ego functions and often respond in one of two ways:
> - demonstratively act through these functions to create an illusion of confidence
> - demonstratively state their complete incompetency or rejection of these areas


Description of vulnerable function (which for INFJs is Te):


> The vulnerable function is also called the Point or Place of Least Resistance (PoLR) or sensitive function. The element in this function creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. A person does not understand the importance of this element entirely, and it can easily lead to painful consequences if not adequately considered.
> However, to directly engage this function creates feelings of frustration and inadequacy. Often an alternative approach may be found from the view of the mobilizing function. Because of the psychological disincentives to using the vulnerable function, people usually try to ignore information related to it, and in extreme cases do so even in situations where it is most relevant. Even with a theoretical understanding of how this element works, it is difficult to turn it into practical norms of behavior. One can "develop" the vulnerable function by recognizing that it is actually important in certain real-life circumstances. Even if the subject recognizes this, he will still usually try to avoid taking responsibility for it himself, or develop a minimalist or non-traditional approach (possibly using other functions) that is enough to satisfy one's own needs.
> ...
> A type with Te PoLR tends to reject facts given from a source which they are personally unfamiliar with, firmly believing they can make their own decisions that are solely based on their own perspective and reasoning about it. They can become defensive when questioned about their rationale or if it is insinuated that they are lacking in competence.


So essentially frustration results if one gets poked into this spot frequently, which may happen if you are in close relations with a type who has this function as their dominant or auxiliary. It is essentially as if they are trying to wreck havoc on your normal way of thinking so naturally you will vehemently resist it. If no ill intent was meant, the other person who was relaying information to your trickster function might not understand why you're reacting so negatively to what they perceive to just be good advice. This may thus leave you feeling down as the result of the exchange, and them confused. Your dad's relationship with you btw is that of supervision where he is acting in role of supervisor: Supervision.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

amnorvend said:


> I'm not quite sure exactly what trickster Te looks like, but you'll recognize it some day.


 What looks to me like a good example is an ISFJ friend of ours, who is known for going on a sudden cleanup frenzy and throw out a whole bunch of papers, only to discover that some of them were not trash and were really important.
Logical order is unconscious as a differentiated perspective, (the real focus is an SiFe need for neatness as a social value), so when a mess is seen, the act of establishing order is undertaken impulsively, but not really conscious of true efficiency.


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## NoirAddict (Oct 20, 2010)

amnorvend said:


> The hallmark of the trickster is that it puts you in a double-bind. It treats the function with such irreverence that it makes you like it more. Think of House. Clearly House is a complete douchebag (trickster Fe - according to Beebe House is an ISTJ), and yet I can't help liking him. Same with Steven Colbert. It's easy to get the impression that Colbert is an INTP because his comedy is dripping with Ti, but pay attention and you'll notice he's using _trickster_ Ti (probably an ENFP). The phrase "likable idiot" comes to mind.
> 
> I'm not quite sure exactly what trickster Te looks like, but you'll recognize it some day. Bear in mind that the ego has a way of distorting reality to make it difficult to see your shadow, and discovering your trickster is tough. You may not quite be ready to see it, but the fact that you're looking says to me that you're on the right path.


In what ways then can I use Te to double bind people?

@Eric B - Also, I've read somewhere (I think I found it somewhere in your links) that the trickster function , when positively used, can be a source of "comedic relief". I just can't relate Te with being funny. Please enlighten me. haha :tongue:


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

> In what ways then can I use Te to double bind people?


I dunno in what cases.
If you look at this thread, an epic clash between Te and Fe, you should find some good examples.
http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/42854-intj-asshole.html


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

NoirAddict said:


> In what ways then can I use Te to double bind people?


 You would organize something in such a way to confuse people.

Again, a reminder, that anyone can do something like that, but the key to these archetypes are the "emotionally freighted images, memories, beliefs, etc" driving the action. When an IxFJ feels double bound, they would use such organization to turn the tables on the other person somehow.

I don't really have any good examples, as I don't know that many, and I've never seen the person I mentioned in that mode. I've only heard about her in the instances of how the Trickster plays out in her own self rather than against someone else. 
(It might be a division between when the Self [unconscious] dispatches the complex, and when the ego [more conscious] uses it for its goals).


> @Eric B - Also, I've read somewhere (I think I found it somewhere in your links) that the trickster function , when positively used, can be a source of "comedic relief". I just can't relate Te with being funny. Please enlighten me. haha :tongue:


 I relayed that information directly from Beebe and Berens.
I imagine it would be, again, using logical organization in some humorous way. I don't have any examples of this either, but it would be sort of like the "childish" Te of ExFP's, but more likely connected to a stress relief.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

May be it means self-depricating humor? Or humor that can be made at your expense? I'd find that quite more likely :tongue:

I've read that it is the senex or the witch one that people use to make jokes. It is used to stop the flow of information and that at times is accomplished by making fun of it, not treating it seriously by making jokes about it, pointing out its absurdity. For example I was talking to an ESTP guy who was asking me if certain people are doing to do a certain task that they are supposed to do. I answered "may be, if they feel like it" in a joking tone and then both of us laughed a bit. This was essentially Fi senex. But I am not so sure about comedy value of trickster. It is supposedly a point in which a person is apt to cross boundaries and seek change, so having Te triskter implies rebellion against existing hierarchy, pushing for change in the existing structures of dominance.



> In this ability, then, the fool appears to share the trickster’s role as boundary-crosser, or as Karl Kerenyi put it, “the enemy of boundaries” (185). For the fool, as for the trickster, boundaries are not so much nonexistent as arbitrary (new or different boundaries can be created at will), and the comic play of his folly lies in his refusal to accept or recognize what seems self-evident to those who govern boundaries. ... The trickster, however, is not playing. He is not confined to his own sphere of activity, “playing the fool,” he is a trickster in the world at large. He actually is immoral (or at least amoral) and blasphemous and rebellious, and his interest in entering the societal game is not to provide the safety-valve that makes it tolerable, but to question, manipulate, and disrupt its rules. He is the consummate mover of goalposts, constantly redrawing the boundaries of the possible. In fact, the trickster suggests, says Hyde, “a method by which a stranger or underling can enter the game, change its rules, and win a piece of the action” (204). Unlike the fool, the trickster aims to change the rules of the “real” world; he is the lowly outsider who is at the same time powerful enough to transform and reconstitute the inside, or indeed to obliterate the existence of “sides.” As Jung said of Mercurius, who was assuredly not playing, “It is of the essence of the transforming substance to be on the one hand extremely common, even contemptible . . . but on the other hand to mean something of great value, not to say divine” (P&A 134). Despite parallels with the fool, Mercurius is much more closely allied to the trickster (and seemed such to alchemists, who found him, in the apparently deliberate elusiveness of his ambiguities, “the object of much puzzled speculation” [P&A 66]). Like him, the trickster pushes the limits of the unorthodox in order to transform reality—and as such is distinct from, in many respects the opposite of, the fool.


May be it is an area where you seemingly agree to it but only on the surface. On the inside you don't really uphold to it. And if chance presents itself you will seek to change it or rebel against it in favor of your other functions. Hence the trick you play on others in this element.


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

vel said:


> May be it means self-depricating humor? Or humor that can be made at your expense? I'd find that quite more likely :tongue:
> 
> I've read that it is the senex or the witch one that people use to make jokes. It is used to stop the flow of information and that at times is accomplished by making fun of it, not treating it seriously by making jokes about it, pointing out its absurdity. For example I was talking to an ESTP guy who was asking me if certain people are doing to do a certain task that they are supposed to do. I answered "may be, if they feel like it" in a joking tone and then both of us laughed a bit. This was essentially Fi senex. But I am not so sure about comedy value of trickster. It is supposedly a point in which a person is apt to cross boundaries and seek change, so having Te triskter implies rebellion against existing hierarchy, pushing for change in the existing structures of dominance.
> 
> May be it is an area where you seemingly agree to it but only on the surface. On the inside you don't really uphold to it. And if chance presents itself you will seek to change it or rebel against it in favor of your other functions. Hence the trick you play on others in this element.


Yes, the Trickster is also about rebellion. (Though I don't see this mentioned in Beebe's articles; it is Mark Hunziker who mentions it, IIRC, and he might have gotten it from a Beebe lecture or article I haven't seen). It's a bratty bad child who "tries to get his own way". I can se where I do this by demanding hard sensory proof of something when I felt I am being put upon (like if someone says "have faith things will turn out alright in the end; it's good you didn't get what you want", etc. Makes religious faith really difficult).

I've never heard of the witch/Senex being involved in humor; it precisely the diametric opposite of that! It's the grumpy old "bad parent". these archetypes of course go beyond the functions as we discuss them, and Puer/Senex duos are the staple of comedy (Abbott & Costello, etc).

For the functiions, however, the witch/senex and the Trickster do form a tandem, known as [the shadow of] the *arm*. The arm is formed by the auxiliary and tertiary, whose archetypes deal more with our relation to others, while the dominant/inferior form the spine, which is about the ego's relations to itself. These carry over into the shadows as well.
So if the Trickster has been constellated, then the Witch/Senex is likely there, involved in it as well.

For me, it's seeing a negative outcome of a situation and being totally cranky and grumbling about it, and if you try to tell me "have faith", or whatever, then I DEMAND some sort of solid concrete assurance of whatever good is being promised, and I want it NOW.
This connects to the "double-binding' concept in that I feel I am being tricked out of something I think I should have, so I then turn the tables and try to trap whomever (or whatever; it can be "life" in general) I feel is giving me a false promise by showing me something NOW.

Though my example still isn't about humor. I guess that would come out in the form of sarcasm or silly, impulsive perhaps facetious or spiteful actions connected with the negative perception of the Senex in my case.

All of these things are but reflections of each other, so whatever is cast off from the serious, authoritative or cranky aspect of your reaction will be compensated by the silly, humorous and childish.


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## Meta4ik (Dec 1, 2011)

Eric B said:


> You would organize something in such a way to confuse people.
> 
> Again, a reminder, that anyone can do something like that, but the key to these archetypes are the "emotionally freighted images, memories, beliefs, etc" driving the action. When an IxFJ feels double bound, they would use such organization to turn the tables on the other person somehow.
> 
> ...



As an INFJ, I tend to lighten things up with Te doms by taking on their serious tone and threatening them with some absurd consequence. Or, humorously, describe some scenario of where they can shove something where the sun don't shine, when they're trying to get bossy with me. 
I, actually, get along quite well with ENTJ/ESTJ types if I can keep it playful.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Trickster Te. Its like when a company tells me i got the job and i go to show up for my first day and apparently i didnt. 

So thats why I still dont have a job. Trickster Te. Always tricking me with their traps. Oh yeah apply online at burger king okay okay by the way by burger king we meant brrr grrr king (cold angry king) lol you got the job of STAYING OUTSIDE IN THE COLD while everybody tramples all over you cuz inferior Se LOL LOL. 

Like really I hate any kind of system. Just pay me under the table. Be real with me PLEASE


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

Trickster Te manifests for me when I outright reject the methodologies given by people in turn for my own logic. To this day, I admit that I'm absolute trash at taking advice from people because whenever I do, I feel trapped, bounded, and mentally restricted. Because of this mentality, I think IXFJs are the true hardheads of the MBTI. We truly don't listen to anybody but ourselves.


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