# Se!



## Tao Jones (Jul 9, 2016)

The most basic definition of Se is the outward characteristics of objects/people/situations, particularly appearance and strength/power.

*Se Egos:* These types are very well aware of their physical surroundings as well as able to easily see who's in power, and they actively consider the power dynamics around them. They know how to apply the right kind of pressure to get people to act. They also know when NOT to apply pressure based on the situation. They're good at defending their territory and interests. They're very decisive (especially Se leads!) and have both the will to do and the power to do. They're great at making things happen, though sometimes this is as the expense of considering other possibilities, waiting to see how things will play out, or thoroughly considering what the results of their actions will be. Beta STs also readily go on the offense and occupy/take other people's territory. Gamma SFs have a strong sense of their personal boundaries and readily communicate and defend them as necessary, letting people know when they're crossing a line.

*Si egos:* These types have the same abilities as the types described above, but it's more of a background thing for them rather than something they actively consider. It's also not nearly as important to them as things like comfort, coziness, pleasurable sensations, and health. Alpha SFs go on the offense and occupy/take other people's territory when they feel it necessary. Delta STs are more focused on defense.
*
Intuitive extroverts:* These types are aware of "normal" use of Se, and they feel compelled to use it as such. xIEs enjoy it. They find power dynamics and use of willpower quite energizing. IxEs don't particularly relish it, but they do it because they feel they're supposed to. These types can be very authoritative, even overly authoritative, when they feel they are in a position where it's normal for them to be in charge, such as when they're a manager, parent, or teacher. They don't have a nuanced understanding of when the specifics of a situation call for a more forceful (or less forceful) approach, and their methods can lack the finesse that sensory types are able to utilize. They also sometimes lack the ability to see who's really in power if it happens to be the person who's not technically in charge. LIEs and IEEs may go on the offense and occupy/take other people's territory. ILEs and EIEs are more likely to use Se primarily for defense.

*Intuitive introverts:* These types are poorly aware of their surroundings and power dynamics. They don't know when/how much to push, and they don't always recognize it or know how to respond when others push them. They're only capable of understanding Se as they gain knowledge through their own personal experience. They don't know what the norms related to this area are. IxIs like being pushed and enjoy strong, appropriate use of force from others. They're attracted to people who innately know how to use power dynamics to their advantage and are good at making things happen. xIIs prefer those who have a gentler approach and don't focus on Se or use it try to motivate others.


----------



## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

The only thing I'd change is in the intuitive extrovert description that EIE's and ILE's use Se more for offense whereas LIE's and IEE's use it for defense since ILE's and EIE's have -Se (subjugation, capture of power) and the other two have +Se (retention of power, counterattack). IxE's just use enjoy it less because they have it as a role function rather than mobilizing.

Other than that, amazing description! Spot-on for real life situations.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

What does it mean to take someone's territory?


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Recede said:


> What does it mean to take someone's territory?


This is really simple. You just have to think about 'territory' in a literal sense as well as in a figurative meaning. Both of them apply. For example:

Scenario 1.
Annie works in the office and has a working place, which is the place by the window with a desk and a chair. She keeps everything she needs for work on the desk as well as in its drawers: papers, laptop, office supplies, phones etc., and deems it to be 'her place'. One day Mark - a new employee - comes in and since there isn't much room in the office and there aren't any free desks left, he approaches Annie's desk, shoves her things to the right side of the desk and puts his stuff on the space freed -> this way Mark took Annie's 'territory'.

Scenario 2.
Jenna got an idea of starting a fresh juice business. She found a good place where it's always sunny and the weather is hot, so people would often fancy a fresh smoothie or an organic juice and opened a small juice bar. Just ten meters away from Jenna's bar there happened to be a John's juice bar, who also sells smoothies and juices. To make her bar more appealing, Jenna decided to sell her juices one dollar cheaper than those of John's and this way she bought over most of John's customers. Jenna didn't took over John's bar and never even talked to him, but nevertheless she took John's business territory and his share of interest.

Scenario 3.
George and Sarah work in the Department of the Company from 9 till 6 every day except the first Saturday and the last Sunday of each month. They aren't very happy about how things are run in their Department and would like to negotiate working hours and other details of their work, but management remains deaf to their appeals. Recently they found out that an active trade union organisation appeared in the area, which holds meetings from 5 till 6 every Friday. Neither George, nor Sarah can't visit these meetings, because of the working hours, but after trade union found out about situation in their Department, they decided to switch beginning of the meetings to 6 pm every Friday, so George and Sarah could come and communicate their problems. The next day management of the Department set a new working schedule and George and Sarah's working hours were switched to 10 to 7. This isn't actually an example of 'taking' someone else's 'territory', but rather limiting it or denying its protection or expansion to someone else, as company tries to prevent enlarging of the sphere of George and Sarah's influence or benefits, or conditions.


You can think up many similar examples where one can take, give, endanger, protect, influence, limit etc. one's own or someone else's 'territory', both in literal and figurative meaning of the word.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

@*To_august* 

Thanks for the examples. I'm curious though about how Se would defend its territory, because it's so foreign to me. Generally my approach is to wait and see first if the situation sorts itself out on its own, and if not then attempt tactful negotiation. Honesty, respect, and humility will generally make any request with a reasonable person go as well as it can. (Not for the business examples, I mean the first scenario.)


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Recede said:


> @*To_august*
> 
> Thanks for the examples. I'm curious though about how Se would defend its territory, because it's so foreign to me. Generally my approach is to wait and see first if the situation sorts itself out on its own, and if not then attempt tactful negotiation. Honesty, respect, and humility will generally make any request with a reasonable person go as well as it can. (Not for the business examples, I mean the first scenario.)


I don't thinks there's a particular determined way Se ego would defend its territory. It depends on many variables of a concrete situation. The difference between Se ego and non-Se ego is just that Se information would be processed consciously and with a capacity of up to 3 or 4 dimensions. Many different courses of action can come from such template. There are certain patterns and all, but we can't predict that if someone is Se ego, then they would necessarily defend their territory in X or Y way, or that they would defend it at all. Mark could be a big, tough guy and Annie (assuming she is Se ego) could quickly read his "force potential", decide against messing with him and chose not to act at all. Or she may come to the boss and demand a separate desk for Mark or for herself. Or find a way to negotiate division of the desk space with Mark. Or decide how to push Mark off her 'territory'. Or upon learning that Mark is boss's new protege decide to be on good terms with him in order to not lose a job, at least for some time. There are plenty of ways to be conscious of Se information and many ways to go about it.


----------



## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

These are all very good examples. Territory doesn't even have to be literal physical territory. It could even be something less tangible or more abstract. 

A recent example that comes to my mind is at work when I'm helping customers out. I have a coworker that tries to be helpful and add in her own information and tries to 'take over' if she doesn't think I'm doing it efficiently or effectively enough. This angers me. Not only do I feel like my incompetence is demonstrated in front of the customer, but I also feel like my 'territory' has been invaded. In this case the 'territory' being the work I am doing with that customer. It's as if that customer is my customer to deal with and the coworker has taken the customer away from me. 




To_august said:


> This is really simple. You just have to think about 'territory' in a literal sense as well as in a figurative meaning. Both of them apply. For example:
> 
> Scenario 1.
> Annie works in the office and has a working place, which is the place by the window with a desk and a chair. She keeps everything she needs for work on the desk as well as in its drawers: papers, laptop, office supplies, phones etc., and deems it to be 'her place'. One day Mark - a new employee - comes in and since there isn't much room in the office and there aren't any free desks left, he approaches Annie's desk, shoves her things to the right side of the desk and puts his stuff on the space freed -> this way Mark took Annie's 'territory'.
> ...


----------



## piano (May 21, 2015)

I find it's really easy to mix up Se and Si sometimes so thanks for this. Could you expand a bit on the differences between Gamma SFs and Beta STs, perhaps by sharing a few examples? I read through this: The Complex of Tied Hands a few weeks ago, but I never got around to reading the Beta equivalent because I didn't care enough, and tl;dr when a Gamma SF is being pressured, insulted (or their skills/achievements, or lack thereof, are called into question), or their space (literal or figurative) is being invaded, their instinctive response is to grab the object nearest to them and wack their offender over the head with it. Do Beta STs experience the same impulse?

Also, would you agree that Si = you in relation to your environment and Se = your environment in relation to yourself? (I hope I didn't mix those two up) because, for example, I've always related Si to yoga and Se to snowboarding. What about Se = volition and Ne = intrigue? I've read that when IxEs try to apply force in a situation, their attempts comes across as unnatural, clumsy, and they're often ineffective. Sorry in advance if my understanding of the functions is off, btw.

IxIs are definitely attracted to power but I disagree that they're unable/find it difficult to appropriately apply pressure, if the situation calls for it. I think they're more than capable of it - more so than Se egos, even - but it's a controlled forcefulness. It's about striking at the best possible moment, in the worst possible way, but I do agree that it's something that's learned through experience and observation, and not innate, like it probably is for Se egos. Is that what you meant?

Is the difference between Se egos (specifically SxEs) and IxIs that IxIs are less comfortable with the actual act of applying pressure, and not so much that they lack the ability to know when and how? A matter of theory vs. application, kind of? Or maybe that they apply pressure in more indirect ways since they're more aware of the progression of time/events and thus the possible negative consequences of their actions, if they were to do apply it directly?

@TheProphetLaLa thought you might find these descriptions/examples of Se more relatable than the rest. Also, since you're here, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you to please get the hell outta my closet. There's this, too: "He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role. He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered." (Socionics Information Elements: Se)


----------



## Tao Jones (Jul 9, 2016)

Rabid Seahorse said:


> The only thing I'd change is in the intuitive extrovert description that EIE's and ILE's use Se more for offense whereas LIE's and IEE's use it for defense since ILE's and EIE's have -Se (subjugation, capture of power) and the other two have +Se (retention of power, counterattack). IxE's just use enjoy it less because they have it as a role function rather than mobilizing.
> 
> Other than that, amazing description! Spot-on for real life situations.


That depends which model you're looking at. Gulenko's new stuff is different. This isn't based on that though.


----------

