# Is introspection selfish?



## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> You define what works for both, yes. I don't think there is fundamentally anything wrong with any kind of spection, what matters is what works for everyone involved. Everyone has a base personality and most people have some flexibility, but if you're constantly forced to bend way out of shape for anything to work, not much will.
> 
> I don't think, for example, that there is a healthy version of me that doesn't spend several hours a day introspecting. That works for some people but not for others, which is perfectly fine.


Right. The main thing you (Marv) do is "sleep" stuff-- for this post I'll call it introspection. I don't know if my husband's main thing is introspection or information gathering... oh, put that way, I know it's introspection. Okay, but shouldn't a part of that introspection be spent on someone you love? I mean it would be ridiculous of me to think he would change THAT much and actually I'm very attracted, like I said, to his introspection. I want to hear all those thoughts and he likes sharing them after he thinks them. 

But lets say your partner is telling you she wants some time with you or your partner is asking that you guys have a date each Friday together or something. Like that's the kind of agreement people make. 

It's not like I'm asking him to be a different person, but there is SOME of it that--yes-- I've trained him that if he gets up and gets himself some ice cream then he asks me if I want some too. Just there are SOME things that are just like "You're not alone, dude." 
I mean... if my kids had someone over to hang out with and they got up to get ice cream and didn't ask their guest if they wanted some ice cream... that would be extremely rude, right? I don't know. Every relationship is different. There are little things you work out like this that kind of become agreements because you realize something is important to your partner. And that's how it is, you work it out between you if you love each other because you care about how each other feels.
We do. My husband is trained up-- pardon the sentiment, but it's true-- and he trained me too for sure for what is the most important "don't tread here" stuff. So yes, I look up at him for a kiss, he's gonna kiss me instinctually at this point. We know what will make each other mad, etc. Where are the other people who have been married for 15 years in the NF forum? There aren't any, huh? There are some in the other forums. I'm only here because my husband has a late shift and I don't get to see him and I have too much job and kid responsibility to go looking for irl friends after my crazy work and evening activities. Whatever. 

It's not all about extrovert/introvert either, though. The most selfish person I know is a ENTP "friend" of my husbands and he will be single forever. And I for sure hope he is single for forever... I would feel so freaking bad for anyone who tried to endure that guy. He is very good looking and at times he has worked to be very fit and all of that. He is intelligent and charming and funny but he is also incredibly selfish and manipulative and deceitful and he couldn't keep a goldfish alive emotionally, so there's no way he's going to be in a relationship ever. A relationship takes adapting to each other and agreements based on caring about the other, imo. Well I guess I think the BEST relationships take adapting and agreements based on caring that the other is happy. I do have a high bar, but that's what I want.
I guess bare-bones 6 points out of 10 relationships you feel like you can count on the other. At least in studies they've found men live like 10 years longer if they feel that they have a partner they can depend on when the going gets tough.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Judson Joist said:


> "Selfishness" is a virtue according to Ayn Rand. The only sorts of people that would regard introspection as selfish are patholigical altruists, aka totalitarian collectivists. In fact, the next time someone accuses you of being selfish for being introspective, call them a "communist" or a "pinko" and see how they respond.
> 
> _*Collectivism is the problem, not the solution.*_
> 
> ...


It's kind of mis-construing the spirit of the original post to say it's about introspection=selfishness. It's not quite that that I was responding to, anyway. I like my husband's introspection... but not to the point where it is selfish. In this way anything anyone does a lot of could be selfish if you do it to the point of excluding your partner too much. 

Otherwise, agreed, bud. 
I better stop posting. This is not my thread. I just happen to be the only extrovert responding...


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

It can be, but why is this a problem? 

Maybe introspection is required to deconstruct whether it's always valid to see selfishness as something to be rejected. 

See what I did there?* *eyebrows**


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> Okay, but shouldn't a part of that introspection be spent on someone you love?


Why? If you're in a relationship, it obviously behooves you to make sure it works, i.e. care about your partner, do things for them etc. But not everyone is in a relationship, and when I think of introspection, I'm thinking "self-maintenance". Which, if you need it, is important for a strong relationship. If someone needs introspection to function well and they neglect it, they aren't going to function well.

For me, interacting with people is a lot like going to the gym, and introspecting is a lot like resting after a workout.



> But lets say your partner is telling you she wants some time with you or your partner is asking that you guys have a date each Friday together or something. Like that's the kind of agreement people make.


Sure. Whatever works. Like you say, it's important to consider the other person, figure out an arrangement that works for both. It's relationship 101, relationships wouldn't work otherwise.

* * *​
Different people have different needs. I have an aunt who has been married since she was 25, which means she's been married for ... almost 60 years. Everyone in my parents' generation married in their early-mid 20s and have stayed together since, mostly because that's how you do it, other options don't exist. Some are happier than others, some only stay together because otherwise they won't make it to heaven (divorce = sin).

Anyway, both my aunt and her husband are extremely introverted - she's a writer, he's a researcher. I spent a couple of summers at their place growing up, and they ran a very well-oiled machine which required very little talking, which neither one was particularly keen on. I think their love language was acts of service almost exclusively.

I once drove to their cottage with them, a drive of several hours during which no one said a word, because no one felt like saying anything. Shared silence, very comfortable, enjoyed by everyone.

They didn't enjoy socialising or talking, so they only did those things very rarely. They both enjoyed gardening, rowing, reading and writing so they did those things, each sitting quietly at their desk or in an armchair, or pottering around in the garden. Both introspected tons, it worked for them because neither one needed much extraspection.

Horses for courses.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

I tend to question my identity and pinpoint how I feel through introspection. Through introspection I'm able to achieve peace of mind - figure out why a situation bothered me so much and it help me reflect how I treat others- 

I think its important to introspect and if anything introspection makes one less selfish imho 

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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Why? If you're in a relationship, it obviously behooves you to make sure it works, i.e. care about your partner, do things for them etc. But not everyone is in a relationship, and when I think of introspection, I'm thinking "self-maintenance". Which, if you need it, is important for a strong relationship. If someone needs introspection to function well and they neglect it, they aren't going to function well.
> 
> For me, interacting with people is a lot like going to the gym, and introspecting is a lot like resting after a workout.
> 
> ...


Yes. I think everyone is getting stuck on just the "Introspection does not equal selfish on it's own" but I'm not sure that that level of answering the question is what was needed by the OP and to me still seems to not be getting into the guts of the relationship. Like there's nothing wrong with introspection on it's own. I don't know, I took a dive into the guts, but the OP told me that I nailed it. 
I don't think introspection is selfish, no. But that's not the discussion that was needed. If I'd answered it like that it would have been a surface kind of thing.

To elaborate on the way I answered:
Okay, so lets say researching is my big thing... which it kind of is.... if research and then sleep were next on my stack. Sorry, once I really accept those definitions of using combos of the functions it's hard to get away from them now. So research, right? Is it selfish. Not in and of itself, but it CAN be if I did so much of it I neglected those around me. 
What about work? It CAN be if you neglect those around you even if the work is what is supporting your family. In relationships you need to have some balance, enough for those involved. 

Love language very much comes into all of this. Like for instance, Marv, if you were with someone who didn't like physical touch and they weren't changing... I mean... that's almost abusive for someone like you. That is not going to work! So what does this have to do with the price of rice in China? Oh yeah... well, if "time spent" is tops for someone then that is going to figure into this particular topic and if "words of affirmation" is important then that is also going to figure in and actually "acts of service" too. All of those love languages need a bit of that intospective energy to be adapted a bit to meet those love languages. Well, really, all the love languages. If I want sex but my partner wants to contemplate the meaning of life and think about his own existence and what he said yesterday to so and so then that might factor in. LOL Sorry, this is getting funny to me. I'll stop. 

With the example you gave, they were thinking of each other enough for them. They had acts of service, you said. That takes consideration. They had their own balance just like every relationship that actually works 

I really wonder now if "play" energy is as important to me or more important than "consume" energy.... hmm. 
Anyway, if I'm just researching all the time, that would be a problem. 
If I'm trying to interact with play energy (2 extroverted functions, and usually how most people interact with each other unless they are doing blast energy which is usually not always pleasant for the recipiant... oh... whatever.... some people like that fine, I guess) then that would and is also a problem in my relationship with someone who is on continual sleep energy mode. 

I can't get away from those definitions anymore. They cut to the chase and make things too easy to talk about. 

Okiay, Marv this is you... likely.... except those last 2 are switched maybe.
Ni +Ti = sleep (introspective energy)
Ni + Fe = blast (putting your ideas into the world, teaching, etc. )
Fe + Se = play (questioning back and forth with someone, interacting... also interacting with the world, the cat, the piano, etc.)
Ti +Se = consume (gathering brand new info)

Alright that's quite enough personalization for this thread this morning. Headed to work.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> I'm not sure that that level of answering the question is what was needed by the OP and to me still seems to not be getting into the guts of the relationship.


I think the OP was talking to a friend when the friend told him that introspection is selfish.



> Okiay, Marv this is you... likely.... except those last 2 are switched maybe.


Quite possibly, but if Dave only shares this stuff in videos, it'll probably take me a while to dig into it. I don't like watching videos where people talk and I am relatively bad at taking in information that way. Text is always 10x better. Does he write articles, too?


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

Judson Joist said:


> Try not to feel that way. It's perfectly reasonable for individuals to do nice things for individuals because they respect them as individual persons. That's not collectivism. In fact, it sabotages collectivism. Anything that sabotages collectivism has to be good.


In Olaf Stapledon's terms, community of personalities (individuals to do nice things for individuals because they respect them as individual persons) is better than herd-community (collectivism).

The term "selfish" should be reserved for situations where one individual pursues his self-interest at the expense of other's individuality. So, introspection is NOT selfish.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

WHEN can introspection be selfish? 
That should be the question. It can be when it is to the exclusion of the person or people you are with.

WHEN can research be selfish, work selfish, play selfish... ALL of it CAN be selfish. If OPs friend said it was registering to him/her as selfish, I answered when it can be selfish. 

If my husband is trying to talk to me and I’m like “I’ve got to read this book first.” I morning if I don’t listen or interact because I’m stuck on whatever I’m doing... done enough, that can definitely be selfish. 

There’s a reason people say what they do and it usually can get looked into.


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## Nesta (Jan 17, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> We do. My husband is trained up-- pardon the sentiment, but it's true-- and he trained me too for sure for what is the most important "don't tread here" stuff. So yes, I look up at him for a kiss, he's gonna kiss me instinctually at this point. We know what will make each other mad, etc. Where are the other people who have been married for 15 years in the NF forum? There aren't any, huh? There are some in the other forums. I'm only here because my husband has a late shift and I don't get to see him and I have too much job and kid responsibility to go looking for irl friends after my crazy work and evening activities. Whatever.


I am an NF and I have been with my husband for 25 years. We have been together for more years of our lives than we have been separate. 
_________________________________________________________

I have seen myself get into a place of deep introspection. When I am there, it is the most interesting thing to me, I am consumed by it and I want to see where it goes, and what it leads to. I don't like to be bothered and lose that focus until I am done with it. It would not occur to me to tend to my needs at this point or the needs of others. I can see how this intense focus could hurt feelings of people around me and fit some definitions of selfishness. 

I am also able to have this level of focus and train it onto my husband and be consumed by him and our relationship. We are able to focus on ideas and concepts together and explore them much like I explore my own stuff. I am able to have this with him but not at the same time that I am focusing inward. We are able to build ideas and concepts together and it feels just as good to me as the introspection does. Is this any less selfish because it is done with another person and not alone? Is it the alone part that makes it selfish or the exclusion of others? When I am doing this with my husband, we are excluding all others as well.


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## Lady of Clockwork (Dec 14, 2017)

If you're keeping something from another, or expecting something from another, you're being selfish by default. To be annoyed at someone else for being selfish because they are keeping something from you, is also being selfish. Self before others is selfishness. Introversion is even listed as a synonym for selfishness. Inward-thinking is selfish. To be concerned of yourself, of your thoughts, your emotions, is selfish. There is no way around this.

Nothing here indicates ethical goodness or badness. It's merely a term used for the direction of attention. If your attention is directed at other people, it's in a state of selflessness; if your attention is directed at yourself, it's in a state of selfishness. To quote Hamlet, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." If you're trying to justify your selfish thoughts, saying you're musing over their goodness for other's well-being, then you're being prideful. This will never stop unless you pull the brakes and accept the terminology.

This is a useless case. It's like the recurring threads of whether introverted feeling is selfish or not.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Lady of Clockwork said:


> If you're keeping something from another, or expecting something from another, you're being selfish by default. To be annoyed at someone else for being selfish because they are keeping something from you, is also being selfish. Self before others is selfishness. Introversion is even listed as a synonym for selfishness. Inward-thinking is selfish. To be concerned of yourself, of your thoughts, your emotions, is selfish. There is no way around this.
> 
> Nothing here indicates ethical goodness or badness. It's merely a term used for the direction of attention. If your attention is directed at other people, it's in a state of selflessness; if your attention is directed at yourself, it's in a state of selfishness. To quote Hamlet, "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." If you're trying to justify your selfish thoughts, saying you're musing over their goodness for other's well-being, then you're being prideful. This will never stop unless you pull the brakes and accept the terminology.
> 
> This is a useless case. It's like the recurring threads of whether introverted feeling is selfish or not.


being selfish means to be inconsiderate of others
being introspective doesn't require being inconsiderate, they are different things, that may or may not overlap in a specific moment


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Nesta said:


> I am an NF and I have been with my husband for 25 years. We have been together for more years of our lives than we have been separate.
> _________________________________________________________
> 
> I have seen myself get into a place of deep introspection. When I am there, it is the most interesting thing to me, I am consumed by it and I want to see where it goes, and what it leads to. I don't like to be bothered and lose that focus until I am done with it. It would not occur to me to tend to my needs at this point or the needs of others. I can see how this intense focus could hurt feelings of people around me and fit some definitions of selfishness.
> ...


I like the description. =) . What type is your husband, Nesta?


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

So what I've learned from the discussion so far is that whether introspection is selfish or not depends on the context. In my case, I need a certain amount of introspection (quite a lot actually compared to most people) or I end up stressed out and frazzled. How much time that is exactly can vary, but I'd say I need at least an hour a day spent musing. More than that could be considered selfish, if I have someone else who actually needs (or wants?) my attention. Indeed my fiancee and I had an agreement that I got an hour a day to myself. She got her hour a day by default since she didn't work (disability) and had the house to herself. As it stands now, I don't have anyone else in my life, so I can allocate a lot of time to thinking and learning what I want to. I'm not sure if this 'waste of time' would be considered selfish or not. Perhaps by some people and not by others...


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## Blue_Data (Feb 3, 2018)

I personally don't think a healthy amount of introspection is selfish. However, there is such thing as _too_ much introspection which does lead to selfish behavior, especially when it's not coupled with wisdom and focus.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

It depends on your ultimate aim. If it is just for your own benefit, then it is selfish.
If it is for the benefit of others, then it's still selfish if the ultimate aim is to benefit as a consequence of that, but if it is out of respect of the principle, then it is not selfish, but good.


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

Euclid said:


> It depends on your ultimate aim. If it is just for your own benefit, then it is selfish.


Yeah, lifestyle magazines love Maslow because he claimed exclusive relationships aren't good because they don't let you develop yorr perrsonahlity.

(I imagined him doing an Eastern European accent, since he was an Ukrainian Jew)


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## Nesta (Jan 17, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> I like the description. =) . What type is your husband, Nesta?


INTJ


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

CountZero said:


> So what I've learned from the discussion so far is that whether introspection is selfish or not depends on the context. In my case, I need a certain amount of introspection (quite a lot actually compared to most people) or I end up stressed out and frazzled. How much time that is exactly can vary, but I'd say I need at least an hour a day spent musing. More than that could be considered selfish, if I have someone else who actually needs (or wants?) my attention. Indeed my fiancee and I had an agreement that I got an hour a day to myself. She got her hour a day by default since she didn't work (disability) and had the house to herself. As it stands now, I don't have anyone else in my life, so I can allocate a lot of time to thinking and learning what I want to. I'm not sure if this 'waste of time' would be considered selfish or not. Perhaps by some people and not by others...


It's not selfish- your situation, you're learning more about yourself/other things while introspecting and you have a lot of free time. 
Oddly enough most of the people who find introspection selfish on here are not strong Fi users ...
Both my partner and I introspect ourself and get lost in thoughts throughout the day - when he spaces out - it doesn't bother me bc I do the same and I don't think we have ever offended each other . 
I introspect myself throughout my entire life - often time when I'm by myself ( walking ,driving, the moment I wake up etc) through introspection i socialize better - understand what needed to be fix about myself and give me enough time to analyze a situation I'm uncomfortable about and help me from jumping into the wrong conclusion about a person/situation. 
And honestly I don't find getting lost in thoughts selfish unless you're trying to harm another or thinking false negative thoughts about a person- if more people introspect their thoughts and actions perhaps the world would be better


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I remember reading up on this subject mentioned by one of social influencers of our time. The Dalai Lama mentions how depression and selfishness goes hand-in-hand, because when people are recluse, they tend to only think about themselves without really tending to and caring for others.

I sort of disagree. But I tend to disagree with most so-called religious gurus, because religion is also by in large a social construct often supported by sociopolitical means. But, that's besides the point.

On some level, introspection is necessary in order to gauge self-understanding. If we don't understand ourselves, our pains, our happiness, joys and sorrows, then how are we able to understand the feelings and emotions of others when we're too detached from our own sense of self?

Buddhism talks a lot about rejecting the "self." The self, from a Buddhist perspective means "center of the universe." I get that by introspecting too much, getting too lost in our own heads, we do tend to forget the needs of others, there has to be a balance. Because when we engage in activities mindlessly for the mere act of just engaging without introspecting, it becomes half-hazard.

I'm thinking Dalai Lama was partially correct in that if we engage our own internal locus of control (introspecting) and balance it with social responsibility, then we can ease symptoms of societal depression on some level. OTH, in a fascist system, where power and control of a select minority can dictate the quality of life for many others, I don't think that that should be tolerated. And on that level, introspection is needed for finding solutions and problem solving.

Life is about balance. Too much of getting out of touch with ourselves is also very dangerous, because that's how people lose their sense of individuality, joy and freedom.


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