# Help with understanding Ni versus Ne



## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

I've been trying to pinpoint what exactly is _off_ when I interact with Ni users IRL. I always feel slightly unsettled, like something is going in the wrong direction (for me).

I'd appreciate any input on my following description of the Ni vs Ne contrast, even if it may sound like I'm stating the obvious, or am categorically wrong. I'd especially like to hear from Ni doms to see if what I'm describing comes off as accurate to them:

Both functions see abstract meaning/patterns/connections. However, Ne is divergent while Ne is convergent: Ne will look at an element in _outside_ reality (hence the E) and derive a cause for its existence. Then it'll see a cause for that cause, and tangent into how this relates to other _outer_ elements, seeing more causes, going wider and wider out until it reaches something universal, a pattern in its pure form which is observable in many other domains than the one it was originally derived from.
Ni works the other way around. The universality of all things is already present and _internalized_ (to the point of it being juuuust on the verge of the unconscious, since the conscious mind can't hold paradox in an explicit manner). Basically it's like all reasoning has already been made _in_ the mind, in a manner that is completely abstract, absolute and non-situational (as in it is a framework that can be reapplied to any specific case), and all it needs is a goal to use the framework on, making all connections converge towards a specific outcome through the Je function, adjusting the framework as they go along and notice flaws.

To schematize, place a Ni user and a Ne user in a "maze of ideas". The Ni user will give themselves a goal, look at the maze from a distance and start eliminating whatever they don't need for said goal (though stopping sometimes to readjust their trajectory when they pass a good idea on the way), whereas the Ne user will withhold from having a goal in order to stop and have a chat with every idea in the maze (though still going in one vague fluctuating direction)

Basically what's been off in my Ni-Ne interactions has been that in discussion, I want to explore an idea, I want input that opens up more doors and they keep wanting to conclude and simplify to the core, whereas my Ni interlocutor probably sees it as me pointlessly fluttering around the pot.

.......I'm not sure how clear that was


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## Clinton (Dec 9, 2012)

The way you describe using Ne doesn't sound like the way I would describe it for myself. 

I'm just beginning to learn about these cognitive functions, but don't feeling/thinking play a large part in how intuition is processed? 
If so, that may explain the difference between how we use Ne. If not, I may need to reassess some things.


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## Teybo (Sep 25, 2012)

I'll let others discuss Ne or Ni, but, if you'll entertain the following notions, you might have some Ne or Ni insights of your own.

I think what you're experiencing is a clash between your P traits and values and their J traits and values. You value exploring ideas without necessarily coming to any conclusion about them, but the J portion of NJ's personalities means that they are uncomfortable with leaving things too open ended. They have a gut feeling that there's a conclusion to be reached, and they would like to reach it, please and thank you. 

If you bring up idea A, B, and C, and then move on to discussing idea D, you, as a P type, will not at all feel uncomfortable leaving A, B, and C unresolved. In fact, you might see that as more natural. 

But your NJ discussion partner will feel like they need to come to some conclusion about A, B, and C, so that means we've got to think through all the different connections, statements, and variables and reach a conclusion, which will take some time unless we're making intuitive leaps, or just rejecting or accepting things without fully considering them (as J's are sometimes accused of doing).

Thoughts?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Hurricane said:


> I've been trying to pinpoint what exactly is _off_ when I interact with Ni users IRL. I always feel slightly unsettled, like something is going in the wrong direction (for me).


I'm glad you mentioned this. I feel the same way with Ne doms (much less so ENFP, very much so ENTP). It's basically the sense that they're putting too much emphasis on the wrong things in conversation. There are two factors here: 



*expectation *(where you unwittingly expect someone to place emphasis)
*deviation from expected *(the feeling that someone's emphasis is different than yours)

When two people favor Ne and Ni, respectively, there is sometimes a bit of awkwardness because the function (N) is the same, giving some understanding and maybe even intrigue, but the attitude is different (e/i), so it's not a direct match with what type of info you feel most comfortable dealing with. 

When two people with the *same* dom function interact, they find a lot of commonality because they don't have to work hard to take the other person's verbage in. Person 1's style is very similar to Person 2's, so they're feeding each others' flame.

You can also notice this at times with someone whose type is the opposite I/E of yours, but has the same other 3 letters. In this scenario, the emphasis is also shifted - an INFP and ENFP, for example, place opposite emphasis on Fi and Ne, though they still expect both from others. You could still tell the difference, but maybe with a bit less confusion as, say, an ENFP and INFJ where Ni and Ne and Fi and Fe are less "comfy," however interesting.


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## shefa (Aug 23, 2012)

I think you articulated yourself rather well, actually. As an INFJ, I want to converse deeply about one specific topic, meticulously and thoughtfully peeling away each layer like an onion until the unifying core is exposed. On the other hand, ENFP's want to flitter all over the garden and pounce on every possible idea for a fraction of a second and NOTHING on my agenda gets accomplished!! I've noticed they tend to hit on a lot of deep points, but all they do is _hit_ on them and move along to the next thing while I want to _explore_ that depth. I get so frustrated when I interact with Ne-doms because they are so freakin ADD!! I love _being_ around you guys, it's just difficult to _converse_ with you. roud:


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

l made a thread like this once. l felt like l was being a whiner though lol.

l can tell where an Ni dom wants me to go in conversation. Sometimes l'll just go with that, because it makes more sense to them. 

There's a way the two functions can merge, but in doing that l'm basically making my own Ne more like Ni so are they merging or is Ne just conceding?

l don't know, l'm split with INxJs. l have really easy conversations with some and others seem a little too intense for me. The ones l can communicate with tend to be more flexible with the Ni and have less focus on the single Ni conclusion/possibility.


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## NothingHere (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't know but Ne annoys the crap out of me. Ni too but not as much.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

@_Clinton_ yes, intuition does shape shift according to the judging function it works with of course.
Would you care to describe how you experience it? I have to say I have trouble grasping how it must be to have your perceiving function as an aux. I'm trying to capture what is purely _essential_ to Ne here, beyond all the thinking/feeling bias so it would be interesting to have your input on your experience of Ne, perhaps I've missed something, this was all very subjective since I'm speaking from a Ne dom perspective.

@_Teybo_, that is precisely what I'm saying indeed  I understand the source of the clash as you put it, I'm just having a look at what the underlying mechanisms are doing

@_Figure_, emphasis is the exact word. We're seeing the same things but the importance is placed differently. It's all very frustrating :tongue:

@_shefa_, thank you. My mother's an INFJ, so I grew up with my shadow, and that's exactly how it's worked the whole time. We've learned to work around it, though, when she feels her insights are getting stale and needs new ones to work with she starts me on a topic and I start spewing concepts like a bubblegum dispenser, which she then takes and puts to good use, and when I need to actually get down to business and exploit something I've started she shows me the guiding lines to_ actually getting somewhere _x)

@_OMG WTF BRO_, do you have an example of this kind of Ne-Ni interaction? The trouble I have with adapting my Ne to their Ni is that they're so reluctant (or perhaps not aware of them enough to be capable) of explaining how their thought processes work, why they want things done a certain way and not another. And I'm always like... "If you can't make it make sense to me, there's no reason for me to agree"

@_sniperpanda_
Well, okay, thanks for your input haha
Care to venture a reason?


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## NothingHere (Apr 18, 2013)

@Hurricane
I'm really big on relevancy. Ne goes on wild tangents that look like they have nothing to do with anything. It strays so far from the original topic that I'm just left wondering if this person is insane.


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## Clinton (Dec 9, 2012)

OMG WTF BRO said:


> l can tell where an Ni dom wants me to go in conversation. Sometimes l'll just go with that, because it makes more sense to them.


This. 

Ne, for me, is seeing a web of connections as the bigger picture. I'll often just focus on the one the Ni user and I have in common. It would be more mentally stimulating for me if the Ni user would indulge my desire to extrapolate further, but I can usually follow their "efficient" thought process without feeling _off_ or _unsettled_.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Clinton said:


> This.
> 
> Ne, for me, is seeing a web of connections as the bigger picture. I'll often just focus on the one the Ni user and I have in common. It would be more mentally stimulating for me if the Ni user would indulge my desire to extrapolate further, but I can usually follow their "efficient" thought process without feeling _off_ or _unsettled_.


Yeah, l had this with an INTJ.

l will say that l don't think he could read me as well as l could read him...arrogantly, lol.
But perhaps he just didn't want to, l think Ni can be blinding so while l'd just go his way he was perfectly content with that.

l had other friends l could indulge in Ne with, l did think it was kind of a bummer that l had to keep that part of myself basically hidden but l got over it lol.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

I think Ne vs Ni is like Fe vs Fi.

Fe doesn't want to think deeply about feelings, surface level is the best level because there's no reason to go into that much depth about feelings. So Fe just moves from one relationship to another to another to another... Fe doms are really gregarious; they navigate social relationships with ease. Like my ESFJ friend can date up to 5 guys simultaneously... FML.

This is the impression I get with Ne, it likes to (what I call) "puddle jump"... so metaphorically speaking the Ne user jumps from puddle to puddle tra la la la la having fun omg MOAR puddles lol. Puddles being ideas... And usually the ideas being explored (or puddles being jumped) are the most interesting ones, doing tonnes in like seconds.

But with Ni, I don't necessarily want to "puddle jump"; I scan the underground looking for the deeper waters. When I see the deep water and dive straight in! I want to explore a few ideas not many.... 

_To be perfectly honest_, my mind just does not work fast enough to keep up with Ne this is why - sometimes I'm jealous actually, I think it must be awesome to be able to think like that. My Ni cannot generate as many ideas as Ne can and I don't think it ever will be able to.

So unfortunately unrestrained Ne is a complete bane for me; it gets me confused, dominates the conversation (have you noticed how young Ne-doms don't know how to shut up? But at the same time expect feedback for everything they say even if it doesn't really require it?) and by the time I get a chance to speak, I have nothing to say really... I haven't had enough time to jump all dem puddles.

I think, some Ne users don't mind being able to just not jump every puddle with a Ni user - these are my favourite kinda people. Take it easy on me guys! I just don't think that way and I can't keep up, I'll try but I usually end up getting more silent as the conversation progresses and by that point I kinda lose interest in talking ><

This is possibly what is off; probably the Ni user just doesn't really care anymore, you've said too much too fast and we've shut down - everything you say now is just inconsequential "noise".

Kinda like how a Fi user just ignores the Fe users talks about their "shallow" feelings because they find them "fake".


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

Clinton said:


> This.
> 
> Ne, for me, is seeing a web of connections as the bigger picture. I'll often just focus on the one the Ni user and I have in common. It would be more mentally stimulating for me if the Ni user would indulge my desire to extrapolate further, but I can usually follow their "efficient" thought process without feeling _off_ or _unsettled_.


I'm wondering if that can't be attributed to Ne being an aux, not a dom for you? How do your interactions with ENTJ's (your shadow users) go in terms of "going in different directions"?

(The feeling of unsettlement is only there because I'm hypersensitive, it doesn't mean a Ne user will necessarily feel unsettled interacting with Ni)

Also seeing a web of connections as the bigger picture is what intuition does, Ni and Ne both. I'm trying to figure out where and how the processes differ in their approach.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I have recently found that Ne as a "shooting off from multiple points" and Ni as "Trying to find a singular definition of something" to be of the work of people who don't seem to understand things honestly. Considering that these don't sound particularly truly INTROVERTED and EXTROVERTED, which I consider to be extremely important when truly differentiating between the two. I would in fact imagine the the opposite would happen, such as a Ne type who instantly realizes all of the possibilities, and goes after the best result possible to affect reality with. Such as knowing which type of opportunities to exploit to one's advantage basically, to know which "path amongst paths" is the most reliable in an instant.

An Introverted Intuition type would be different. The person who uses all of these possibilities to not affect reality, but to stimulate their own inner world. They will ignore possibilities that don't stimulate their inner world, if they have to. Their vision is constantly changing to their own whims, with only Thinking and Feeling grounding them slightly to reality. To translate these gut feelings into something more palatable for others to understand, which some might not even desire to do so.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

JungleDisco said:


> I think Ne vs Ni is like Fe vs Fi.
> 
> Fe doesn't want to think deeply about feelings, surface level is the best level because there's no reason to go into that much depth about feelings. So Fe just moves from one relationship to another to another to another... Fe doms are really gregarious; they navigate social relationships with ease. Like my ESFJ friend can date up to 5 guys simultaneously... FML.
> 
> ...


This was a hilarious read, thank you x)

I wouldn't be too quick to dub any function as shallower than another, though...


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> This was a hilarious read, thank you x)
> 
> I wouldn't be too quick to dub any function as shallower than another, though...


I didn't call it shallower? I just said it likes to explore more ideas ie jump moar puddles.

Sorry if it came across that way! That wasn't what I meant at all!

edit: oh you meant Fe? Yeah trust me I _know _it isn't fake but some Fi users just aren't as convinced because they have all these "deep" wonderful unique feelings that I just will never be able to experience... cos tbh, I don't want to. Lol. But don't tell them that, it's easier for everyone if they continue to believe Fi makes them a special snowflake.


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## kitsu (Feb 13, 2013)

JungleDisco said:


> I didn't call it shallower? I just said it likes to explore more ideas ie jump moar puddles.
> 
> Sorry if it came across that way! That wasn't what I meant at all!


Oh no don't worry I didn't take it as criticism. When you compared it to Fe you said something about not caring for looking into depth, I just meant people have different notions of what depth means

(Exhaustion from the extravert=shallow bias, nothing to do with your post haha, sorry)

Edit: okay so I totally posted this before I saw your edit confirming what I'm saying x)


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> Oh no don't worry I didn't take it as criticism. When you compared it to Fe you said something about not caring for looking into depth, I just meant people have different notions of what depth means
> 
> (Exhaustion from the extravert=shallow bias, nothing to do with your post haha, sorry)
> 
> Edit: okay so I totally posted this before I saw your edit confirming what I'm saying x)


I think depth is dependant on the individual user to be honest and how much time people have too lol.


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## Clinton (Dec 9, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> @Clinton yes, intuition does shape shift according to the judging function it works with of course.
> Would you care to describe how you experience it? I have to say I have trouble grasping how it must be to have your perceiving function as an aux. I'm trying to capture what is purely essential to Ne here, beyond all the thinking/feeling bias so it would be interesting to have your input on your experience of Ne, perhaps I've missed something, this was all very subjective since I'm speaking from a Ne dom perspective.



Your description of Ni seemed fine to me, but I don't see my Ne behaving in a maze of ideas like you described in your analogy. The way you described your use of Ne seemed more like you wander around discovering new things along the way, but ultimately those new ideas lead to a lot of dead ends. I just got the impression your Ne doesnt have much holding it back (or giving it direction). Ne for me CAN be like that at times, but usually Ti dom will keep it under control. I would go as far as saying Ti gives Ne the quality of making those different connections within the mind almost as innately as a Ni user seem to have the reasoning done in their mind to simplify things down to a goal. 

Am I making any sense?


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## Clinton (Dec 9, 2012)

Hurricane said:


> I'm wondering if that can't be attributed to Ne being an aux, not a dom for you? How do your interactions with ENTJ's (your shadow users) go in terms of "going in different directions"?


Im not really sure if I know any ENTJs, I'll have to give this more thought. 



Hurricane said:


> (The feeling of unsettlement is only there because I'm hypersensitive, it doesn't mean a Ne user will necessarily feel unsettled interacting with Ni)


Could that be Fi? Ti validates the connections I draw. I wonder if that's just an Fi Ti difference.



Hurricane said:


> Also seeing a web of connections as the bigger picture is what intuition does, Ni and Ne both. I'm trying to figure out where and how the processes differ in their approach.


Possibly. I just imagine Ni as ignoring what they deem irrelevant to simplify things towards their goal. My goal is to understand a concept or thing from all angles and so I would argue all connections must be relevant. Maybe our goals are different.


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