# Trying to understand Ni vs Ne: INTP, ENTP (Ne) vs INTJ, ENTJ (Ni)



## Dasein (Jun 11, 2015)

I've been attempting to understand Ne vs Ni. The four types of NT break down into the following:

INTP - Ti and Ne (primary and secondary functions)
ENTP - Ne and Ti 

INTJ - Ni and Te
ENTJ - Te and Ni

I understand the description that INTPs are primarily Ti (introverted thinkers) and continually develop internal structures of abstract ideas and use Ne to explore the external world and identify patterns in the external world that are then analyzed for consistency and logic using Ti (introverted thinking). If a previous structure that has been created is confronted by new information that cannot be reconciled, it is possible that the internalized structure will be changed (or even scrapped and possibly replaced by a new structure).

ENTPs are similar except they're primary function is Ne and secondary function is Ti. So they are more open to receiving their experience from the outside world "unfiltered" and maybe even driven to do so. (Which might account for their extroverted nature?)

INTJs and ENTJs:

I don't feel like I truly understand Ni (introverted intuition) at the moment. I'm wondering if Ni (introverted Intuition) is their creative force within INTJs and ENTJs and then they search the external world using Te (extroverted Thinking) to validate what their introverted intuition has developed?

Maybe others can contribute to their understanding of Ni and Ne?


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## Geejayblue (Dec 21, 2015)

im curious to know if Ti can mask Ne make a person think its Ni??????


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## Luck (Nov 19, 2015)

I'm not sure I understand my dominant function fully but here's some ways it seems to work in me:

1. It's subconscious. This is readily apparent in two distinct ways; a) to detect 'errors'. I seem to process what I've seen subconsciously and if there is an 'error' a message is sent back up to my conscious brain. Often first thing in the morning. So I might wake up with the thought 'there is a cantaloupe in fridge' (when an uncut melon should be left out to ripen further). Obviously I didn't notice that when I was actually getting a drink from the fridge the night prior. I suspect my sleeping mind goes over everything from the previous day. 

This works in others ways too, not just visually. If someone has told me conflicting information and I don't catch it at the time, this function will catch it (often by returning the memory of what they said back to my conscious mind, as if my subconscious is saying 'I'm not filing this one away until you process it further' or simply 'error'. I know to think about it further to work out why it was returned to me). 

I take advantage of the fact my brain works this way to b) come up with insights. I'll read a ton of material, basically with the intention of dumping tons of information into this function. I might read away solidly for a week and then, if no insights are coming to mind, go lay on the beach for hours and see what my mind comes up with if it's left to wander. [And yes, I realize how strange this subconscious functioning is]

2. Complex novel ideas are drug like. It's a high for me. And it's entertainment. I might read about a novel idea and it's a thrill and fascinating and I will literally toy with it in my mind for days, see how it fits into my internal understanding of things in my mind. If that clicks into my internal understanding and makes it grow an extra little branch, wonderful. If it shows me that what I had been thinking might be wrong, wow, awesome, what a thrill. If it doesn't fit at all, it was a exciting idea but it appears to be wrong, that's okay, it was still fun to toy with. An example might be an idea that we have killer genes that are triggered by social status. I'll try to think of how this could occur scientifically and if it's viable then I'll toy with it some more on a philosophical and how this fits with my experience and what else I know level. 

I have an incredible drive to understand and to see the truth but ideas in themselves are fun before I have worked out their value. I do not need to logically come to ideas. There is a sense in my mind that anything is possible and that reality is stranger than we realize and isn't as fixed as it appears to most people so 'crazy' ideas can work. Give me something like 'aging is not inevitable' and I'm having an idea high for weeks, longer if I choose to make a plan around it and hand it over to Te to do something with. This brings me to the next point...

3. Ni drives me to the most difficult problems. I started in life with the usual 'what do I want to do' then, finding that unsatisfactory, I moved to the very difficult to do and then, after being successful, I realized that difficult and intellectually profound and valuable are not the same thing and I need the latter so I am switching my life around to focus on an enormously complex problem that is truly significant and extraordinarily difficult to solve, if not impossible, with failure being the most likely outcome. This is INTJ heaven for me and should keep me going for the next 50 years or so.

I'm not sure how universal that is but I hope it gave you some insight into the world of weird that is Ni dominance.


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## Geejayblue (Dec 21, 2015)

I actually enjoyed reading that. It has made me question my understanding on intuition. Unfortunately what gives me a high is understanding people :frustrating: like if I find what you wrote interesting or i suddenly find myself attracted to you (not in that way ), you would stand out to me from everyone else and i'd find myself examining you, trying to find out your thought process and reading between the lines of what you wrote to know what your not saying and to get a better idea of the kind of person you are. sometimes depending on how strong the attraction is I'd get in touch to try and find out why you stuck out from everyone else (the person never knows this). There's something about them that I need to know that I don't know yet. After I've found what I'm looking for I move on.


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## Luck (Nov 19, 2015)

Geejayblue said:


> I actually enjoyed reading that. It has made me question my understanding on intuition. Unfortunately what gives me a high is understanding people :frustrating: like if I find what you wrote interesting or i suddenly find myself attracted to you (not in that way ), you would stand out to me from everyone else and i'd find myself examining you, trying to find out your thought process and reading between the lines of what you wrote to know what your not saying and to get a better idea of the kind of person you are. sometimes depending on how strong the attraction is I'd get in touch to try and find out why you stuck out from everyone else (the person never knows this). There's something about them that I need to know that I don't know yet. After I've found what I'm looking for I move on.


Reading this made me smile. It reminded me of my ENTP has to know every little thing about me SO. I guess I'm lucky that I'm constantly improving/growing/changing/keeping things interesting so he hasn't got bored of me, well not yet anyway!


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## Finny (Jul 17, 2015)

Ne: abstract thought; sees all possibilities.
Ni: relies on evidence; what's plausible; can detect patterns. 
Te: A to E; general idea; focuses on big picture.
Ti: A,B,C,D,E; notices details; analytical. 

Remember Ne goes hand in hand with Si, and same with Ni and Se.
If you are confused about Ne vs Ni but know if you have Si or Se, your Ne or Ni is probably inferior or tertiary


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## Geejayblue (Dec 21, 2015)

Luck said:


> Reading this made me smile. It reminded me of my ENTP has to know every little thing about me SO. I guess I'm lucky that I'm constantly improving/growing/changing/keeping things interesting so he hasn't got bored of me, well not yet anyway!


 
yes. To me being stagnant is like a slow death. I think if my partner was set in their ways and didn't grow or learn, it'd drive me nuts.


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## Kitty23 (Dec 27, 2015)

Hi there  maybe this will help

*Ne vs Ni test *

1.While in a forest do you think of the fractal patterns, the wide range of possibilities in the forest, how this forest is part of the ecosystem and is affected by pollution from the city... (Ne) or Recognize that the forest is deeply symbolic of all of life in its interconnectedness and constant recycling and growth and foresees that this forest will soon be torn down for a housing development... (Ni)? 
2.Do you have an explosion of ideas, symbols, and possibilities (Ne)? Or do you find one idea and build on it over time (Ni) 
3.Are you more about possibilities and randomness (Ne)? Or insights and purpose (Ni)? 
4.Is your speech scatterbrained/about multiple topics (Ne) Or more streamlined/ talk about one thing at a time (Ni)? 
5.Do you want to go out and try all of your ideas (Ne)? Or be selective with your ideas (Ni)? 
6.Is your thought process non-linear (Ne)? or linear (Ni)? 
7.Do you brainstorm out loud (Ne)? or keep ideas to yourself (Ni)?
8.Do you focus on “what if's” or “what could be”? (Ne) Or having an “aha moment” (Ni)? 
9.Do you find broad shallow symbols and patterns (Ne)? or deep symbols, and patterns (Ni)? 
10.You are at a park. Are you more 
(Ne) sees the possibilities of the park. Look at those two people. You can tell they’re not “together” anymore, but just hanging out for the kid’s sake. See their body language? How many rides are in this park? Do you think anyone ever died here? I think they should put a new ride in this space. Call it the Haunted House of Horrors, and have Dead Presidents in it. You know, they could put up an entire haunted SECTION of the park. That would be awesome. Who do I call to pitch that idea? Stay away from the guy in the red hat. He gives me vibes. Ooh, you know, I could write a story about a murder in a theme park! He could die because the Tilt a Whirl malfunctioned. No, no, because the Tower of Terror ride didn’t stop, it crashed the elevator to the bottom floor! His sister did it. No, his uncle! No, the theme park guy, because he’s freakin’ insane.

Or (Ni)? You know what will happen before it happens. I’m going to take a step back, because that kid is going to spill his slushy all over – yup, there it goes. I know which ride I want to go on. I’ve thought about it all week. I’m going to have an awesome time on that ride. I’m going there first. Wait, there are other rides? I didn’t even notice! I was busy fixating on getting to the head of the line! Marsha better not go on that thing, she’ll hurl—yep, there she goes.


*Who are in these conversations? Ni or Ne? *

Ni is my INFJ friend saying, “So and so’s problem is THIS and she’s pissed.” 

Ne is me saying, “I’m getting indistinct impressions and I think she’s mad at me, so I’m going to dig around more to see if I can get her to say what’s wrong.” 

Do you want to find the "absolute truth" (Ni)? or think several possibilities have the potential to be the truth (Ne)? 

"Ni and Ne may reach the same conclusion but Ne will be less certain in articulating that conclusion as an indisputable fact because since Ne is focused on external possibilities and doesn’t like to narrow things down like Ni does, Ne anticipates that with additional information their assumption may change." 

"Ne is expansive, pulling not only from the immediate environment but a fast storehouse of similar knowledge (Si), so it is good at reading connections between other people, but it is not good at magically coming up with an answer after sleeping on something, which is something Ni is known for. (Ni- ”Oh, the answer just came to me… I know what to do…”) Ne looks outward, eager for information and inspiration, with a desire to discuss, and Ni looks inward, looking at something from every angle before deciding if it fits in its inner framework. " 

"Ni is an INTJ I know articulating something as an absolute; and an (Ne) ENFP I know arguing with him that he doesn’t know that for sure."

*This is what Ne looks like in real life in all 4 positions *

How Ne Acts in all 4 Positions - Funky MBTI in Fiction

* This is what Ni looks like in real life in all 4 positions *

How Ni Acts in all 4 Positions - Funky MBTI in Fiction


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

INTonyP said:


> I've been attempting to understand Ne vs Ni. The four types of NT break down into the following:
> 
> INTP - Ti and Ne (primary and secondary functions)
> ENTP - Ne and Ti
> ...


I think Ni/Te works quite similarly to Ti/Ne, in the sense of developing ideas internally and checking their accuracy externally. It's just a matter of where the structuring goes on. I'm still trying to find more information on Dr. Dario Nardi's EEG studies on neural correlates of MBTI types, but as I recall he says that Ti and Ni show different brain patterns. Ti shows different regions of the brain lighting up one after the other -- connections being made. Ni users show the whole brain light up at once, going into a "flow" state. Like the descriptions, Ti makes connections and builds sort of a framework. Ni is a perceiving function so it's not structuring ideas or building frameworks around them. It examines ideas but ideas are just ideas. I guess you can say the fundamental building block of Ni IS the idea. Te is just used to structure and systematize an idea into something "real". In contrast, it seems that for Ti, the ideas are components which are structured a certain way, and then connected (and/or corrected) by Ne. 

Ni also is associated with pattern-formation, because it compiles external information and over time, patterns will form from this information. Te can test these patterns for accuracy. 



Finny said:


> Ne: abstract thought; sees all possibilities.
> Ni: relies on evidence; what's plausible; can detect patterns.
> Te: A to E; general idea; focuses on big picture.
> Ti: A,B,C,D,E; notices details; analytical.
> ...


I would add to this that Te doesn't "skip" B-D per se, when going A to E. This becomes implied knowledge which is contained within Ni. So Te doesn't need to consciously hold that information. It gets passed along anyway while Te is focused on "go from A to E". It's like when you learn some new skill, for example riding a bike, and after while you aren't thinking about the steps, all the sequences of movements your body is going through to ride the bike. You're just thinking "ride the bike from here to there."

This is why Ni users can run into problems with missing info. It;s like when you learn a new skill and if you don't learn it right the first time, you can develop a bad habit and not even realize it until someone corrects you. But what Ni would do in this case is attempt to correct itself, and over time the corrected process is the implied information.


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## Jippa Jonken (Jul 20, 2015)

Ne pulls toward novel, controversial, untested ideas. It is deductive, asking "what if?" questions by displacing structural components of established schemata. Coupled with Ti, it is a rigorous truth-seeking algorithm.

Ni pulls toward immersive, holistic ideas. It is inductive and over time builds a conviction regarding metaphysical essences from observation of many instances. Ni is like a vision. Coupled with Te, it tries to practically implement itself, impose itself as a force upon the outer world. This mainly happens through various forms of competition, something they are very fond of unlike xNTP's who are more comfortable breaking rules than mastering them.

Ne's are distant with dispassion. Ni's are distant with dissociation.


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## Geejayblue (Dec 21, 2015)

Thanks so much for all the information (all who replied). 

What I've learnt about myself: I used to use ni but now use ne. 

Ne: I love how ne looks at everything in wonder and sees so much possibilities. How it always comes up with ideas and how it challenges the norms and dares to be different by asking questions like "what if and why not" 

What I don't like about it: the uncertainty. You say the information your intuition gives you without being 100% sure it's right but u say it anyway. This is causing me To doubt myself which I HATE. on a plus side, I think these doubt are good for me, lol knocks my arrogance down a few peg. Also I don't like that I can never stick to 1 thing, that I hop from one thing to the other and rarely complete what I've started. I don't like that I can never stick to one subject when talking and everything is half done.

Ni: god I miss ni. I loved just minding my own buisness and wham an idea comes from nowhere and I know 100% it's accurate. I don't know how but I just do. I miss just looking at a person and knowing things about them without them telling me. I miss having a dream or a vision and then watching it all come to life before me. I miss not worrying about all the options that are before me, whats happening or what's to come because I didn't need to 'think', before I just 'knew'. Before I just went with the motion and followed whatever my gut feeling told me because to me, it was always right.


What I don't miss: having a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that something bad is gonna happen and not knowing what it is. That being said, I do kinda miss it because I used to use it to help me getaway with things. No bad feelings ment I'm free to do it. A Bad feeling ment not today. 


Also ni period i was wiser beyond my years, spent all my time on my own and was causious. My mind was clear and I always followed my thinking, never letting emotions sway me. 

Ne period I'm childish (it is fun), more extraverted, constantly surrounded by people (not a choice) and taking risks by doing crazy things. I'm rarely on time, go with the flow and adjust to any situation. I've noticed my thinking is not as clear as it used to be and my head always feels fuzzy. Lol I can now hug people and tell my friends I love them. Before that was baffling and something I could never do say or felt. 


So, from what I wrote. Did I get ne and ni right?


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## Dasein (Jun 11, 2015)

Kitty23 said:


> Hi there  maybe this will help
> 
> *Ne vs Ni test *
> 
> ...


Great descriptions and links. Thanks.


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## ericka.noel (Jan 12, 2016)

@Luck
Amen.
so don't hold out on me- what's the significant/difficult/maybe impossible enormously complex problem. 

INTP seeking tour of INTJ heaven. 


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Luck (Nov 19, 2015)

ericka.noel said:


> @Luck
> Amen.
> so don't hold out on me- what's the significant/difficult/maybe impossible enormously complex problem.
> 
> INTP seeking tour of INTJ heaven.


Brain emulation technology. I want the first super intelligence to be human or at least human like rather than AI.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

INTonyP said:


> I've been attempting to understand Ne vs Ni. The four types of NT break down into the following:
> 
> INTP - Ti and Ne (primary and secondary functions)
> ENTP - Ne and Ti
> ...


Ne sees possibilities, Ni sees a result.

Basically that means that Ne observes a situation and then comes up with many possible ways this situation *can* develop. Ni does the opposite. Ni comes up with the most likely way that this situation *will* develop.

So there is a huge difference between the Ne and Ni.

The difference between INTJ's and ENTJ's is that ENTJ's main focus is on structuring the outside world. They use Ni just to figure out how to do this. INTJ's on the other hand are more focused on understanding the outside world so that they can come up with the best strategy for structuring the outside world. ENTJ's just want to get started and structure the outside world. Efficiency isn't their highest priority. INTJ's don't have this intense need to structure the outside world like ENTJ's have. ENTJ's want to get it done fast. INTJ's aren't in a hurry to structure the outside world and also won't do it unless they´re sure they'll succeed. ENTJ's will start anyway and success, from their point of view, depends on them, and nothing else. So they will move mountains, if they have to, to get done what they want to have done.


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## Derange At 170 (Nov 26, 2013)

Imagine an Ne-dom and Ni-dom watching a puppet show;

Ne-doms primarily perceive the play conceptually. They look past its physical properties and relate it to other concepts they perceive as similar.

Ni-doms mostly perceive the play as-is, looking at its physical properties, but make sense of its by imagining how the strings are being pulled as it makes sense to them.

Ne-perceives hidden conceptual patterns, that aren't perceived as hidden. Ni-perceives hidden mechanics that _are_ perceived as hidden and as they make sense to the subject (the user).


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## greco (Jul 10, 2010)

Jippa Jonken said:


> Ne pulls toward novel, controversial, untested ideas. It is deductive, asking "what if?" questions by displacing structural components of established schemata. Coupled with Ti, it is a rigorous truth-seeking algorithm.
> 
> Ni pulls toward immersive, holistic ideas. It is inductive and over time builds a conviction regarding metaphysical essences from observation of many instances. Ni is like a vision. Coupled with Te, it tries to practically implement itself, impose itself as a force upon the outer world. This mainly happens through various forms of competition, something they are very fond of unlike xNTP's who are more comfortable breaking rules than mastering them.
> 
> Ne's are distant with dispassion. Ni's are distant with dissociation.



Not to implement or impose itself. To find itself (or its reflection) in the outside world (which it perceives as deeply connected to the subjective world).


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## Howy (Aug 7, 2014)

Want to understand ni as someone who use Ne?

As you know si function is experiencing sensory information. And that sensory information Is stored in your long term memory which naturally accumulates over time. These memories become associated with your sense of self and is viewed by you as a irreplaceable part of your identity. In the present, sensory information that are similar to your memory are viewed as familiar while new sensations are viewed as alien or untrustworthy. Strong si Dom have a compulsive need to adjust their sensory environment to match familiar sensory memories which to them feel more comfortable. If this compulsive need is not met they feel anxious or unwell. When they get to change their sensory experience to what they prefer, they feel comfortable. 

A person with ni sees intuitive connections just like Ne. The difference is that Ni stores intuitive information into long term memory in its abstract, non sensory form. These memories are associated with the persons sense of self like si and the individual perfer certain ideas just like an si user to sensations. Certain ideas are familiar to the ni Dom and they develope a preference to certain ideas. They have a compulsive need to match be the ideas of their present to their preferred intuitive preferences that accumulated over time . 

Basically ni is Ne plus long term memory without sensory information plus personally preference plus OCD. 
Si is Se plus long term memory without intuitive information plus personally preference plus OCD. 

But how do someone with Ne remember intuitive information such as how thing relate to each other? What Ne users do is remember key sensory information that if recalled will allow the user to see the inuitive connections at the moment of recall. Ne users tend to have a need to convert thier intuitive understanding to sensory representation. I.e. Explain an idea with words or pictures. This is because for Ne user to remember the information it needs to be in sensory form.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Geejayblue said:


> im curious to know if Ti can mask Ne make a person think its Ni??????


The way I look at it Ti and Ni can seem quite similar but one is perceiving (intake) and the other is judgement. Judgement is a type of output even if only a verbalizing of a theory, mentally in your head. You make a judgement about something, whereas with NI you have a sense of how something works or the inter-relatedness of things without the verbalization. You try to confirm these perceptions with something you can verify already in the world (TE).

Ne is monitoring options all the time, taking in the world and patterns in real-time and handing off to Ti (shot gun approach and testing on the fly) as you go along, not stored "meanings or laws of nature" the way Ni does. Ti stores something like Ni but Ni that makes noise in my head, not sub-conscious or below the surface in the background, the way Ni works.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

In terms of what is focused upon vs. what falls off my perceptual radar, I experience the various perceiving functions like this:


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## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

Pi = you know something is true because all that you have been, has brought you to this point in time, with the perceptions you are holding. Ni has an agenda, hidden path of focus, seeking something. Si is more passive, less aggressive, going deep only to the point pushed to avoid discomfort.


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## lNTJ (Sep 13, 2015)

The most basic way I can describe Ni is making impressions and theories. You make observations, connect observations to other observations, find patterns, and ultimately devise theories that relate all of your observations together. 

For example, I can notice that my friend walks home from school. Then, I notice that he tends to walk home only on certain days. Then, I notice he only walks home on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Thus, I have found a pattern- my friend walks home on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Now, I've made another observation- his father always comes home at 6 every night and he's a only child. Now, suddenly I can jump to the conclusion that his mother most likely has some sort of job now! Wait, what?

I arrive to this conclusion because he does not walk home on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Why must this be? Because his mom is available these days to pick him up. If she can't pick him up on EVERY Tuesday and Thursday, she must be busy with something. I can make a safe assumption that she has a job now. Considering the observation that she now has a job, I can think perhaps they are having money problems.

This is how Ni leads to a ton of different conclusions. It branches off with every thought you have. But anyway, this is how I think Ni works.


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## Alien 2 Earth (Feb 5, 2016)

Finny said:


> Ne: abstract thought; sees all possibilities.
> Ni: relies on evidence; what's plausible; can detect patterns.
> Te: A to E; general idea; focuses on big picture.
> Ti: A,B,C,D,E; notices details; analytical.
> ...


I care mostly for A2E, but I also _notice_ A B C D E if need be. Ne and Ni practically function as a single unit. So what type am I? Functions are so unreliable, people should stick to dichotomy. Probably why MBTI was created in the first place; seen the inefficiencies in Jung and decided to improve it.


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

I see iNtuition as the "gap" between concepts/words/etc. Some good examples are in the analogy section of the SAT. Like "bird is to worm" as "dog is to bone" but not "cat is to fur".

Using more analogies, Ne is like quickly jumping the gaps from one word/concept to the next. Ni is like doing an olympic long jump with concepts/words/etc.

There's always a gap between words. The gap between "red" and "maroon" is shorter then the gap between "darkness" and "freedom".

iNuition is connected to Thinking where both are related to concepts, so they are both specific to the brain. Feeling and Sensing are not specific to the brain, but "realized" through the whole body.

More analogy.. iNtuition is like the non-judging counterpart of Thinking while Sensing is like the non-judging counterpart of Feeling.

How do you NOT judge something? By accepting it as it is. For example, "I'm feeling sad" is judging, "There's a sensation that exists in the heart region of my body" is non-judging.

iNuition is the gap between concepts. Without it, concept/thinking would not exist, just like feeling would not exist if you lose all your senses.


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