# Abrasive, volatile personality = Thinking types?



## ReuBurn (Oct 8, 2010)

So being a music student and having taken a number of music courses at a university, I've come across many notable personalities in history. And inevitable I come across people who you would call, quite simply, assholes. They were arrogant, treated other people like dirt, scorned their peers, you get the idea. Yet they were amazingly talented people who impacted the world of music in one way or other. When I think of ballsy people like this I link them to T types because of their tendency to disregard other people's feelings. But then again, these were artsy people. They are in tune with their senses and feelings which makes their compositions shine out. Which makes me wonder, are the conventions which label F and T types more blurred then I've come to realize?

Beethoven was a great composer. No doubt about that. But he was notorious for his short temper and didn't give a shit about other notable composers in his time. He drove his nephew to attempt suicide.

Wagner, too, was a very arrogant person with a short temper. He was racist and controlling. Even in jazz, Charles Mingus is known as the "Angry Man of Jazz" yet he was a brilliant bandleader who had the sensitivity to bring out the best of every member of his ensemble. 

In the film industry, Bernard Hermann revolutionized the use of instruments in films but was as likable as Justin Bieber is in his time. I can continue spewing out names but I want to hear your thoughts on this matter. It's not a one-way slide either, I've always thought Hitler as a T type but the general consensus is that he's an INFJ.

I've thought that T types were as attracted to frivolous, impractical subjects such as music as I (an ISFP) am to supervisory roles. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, especially from a psychological standpoint.


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## tenthousandopenbooks (Jan 25, 2011)

I think your stereotypes about T-types are a little too general. Extraverted thinking is far more "practical" than Ti, and lack of developed Fe is what leads people to disregard the feelings of others.

Thinkers are generally more likely to be goal oriented than relationship oriented, but there are lots of other variables you didn't mention, for instance the J/P dichotomy. Perceivers are more likely to give consideration to other people's ideas whereas judgers are likely to have more confidence in their own ideas.

In my opinion xxTJs are likely to be more pushy than xxTPs, and conversely xxTPs more insensitive than xxFPs.

Also worth noting is extraversion vs. introversion in your examples. Abrasive and volatile sound more in line with extraverts than introverts. The insensitivity is certainly still there in certain introverts, it's just usually not directed outward.


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## Van (Dec 28, 2009)

T types can be artsy. I'm a music major too, and there are plenty of T type performers, composers and lecturers around me. I'm sure you could find examples of every type in music schools. Music transcends type 
As for abrasive and volatile behaviour, I think any type can behave that way given the right situation.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

tenthousandopenbooks said:


> I think your stereotypes about T-types are a little too general. Extraverted thinking is far more "practical" than Ti, and lack of developed Fe is what leads people to disregard the feelings of others.
> 
> Thinkers are generally more likely to be goal oriented than relationship oriented, but there are lots of other variables you didn't mention, for instance the J/P dichotomy. Perceivers are more likely to give consideration to other people's ideas whereas judgers are likely to have more confidence in their own ideas.
> 
> ...


Would you say it's possible that the OP is talking about an ExTJ?


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Propensity to create art or music and 'ballsiness' don't have anything to do with each other. Some very confident people are also highly creative. I don't get why you're making a connection between these two.

In general Ts do value competitive elements more, while Fs tend to value harmony more in human relations. But it is not as simple and straightforwards as that as to say all Ts are assholes. First, no person is only T or F - we all have both T and F functions so within yourself you have capability to be either. Second T and F come in introverted and extraverted orientations which of course has different effect. Third there are also personality disorders, bad life experiences, family influences and upbringing, and so on, that will also have their toll. My bipolar INFP friend for example would become extremely abrasive whenever she was on her manic up and proceed to insult her friends, her sister and her family even though she was dominant in a feeling function. So labeling somebody a T just based on assholish behavior is premature.


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## jdmn (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't think it's that extreme. There are feelers who are a lot abrasive, controlling, volatile and unsensitive. But it can be easy for some feelers to confuse the use of the thinking function as unsenstive, dominating, unagreeable, nasty, etc. I used to think like that and that I must have a lot of carefulness when dealing with thinkers. 

There so much details about Thinking because of the fact that it's shown as extroverted (Te) or introverted (Ti). But generally, their main objective, as a judging function of making conclusions and decisions, is to find out the objective truth in every situation that they are presented. To be the most exact and free of any personal wishes or feelings that may interfere the possibility of an exact understanding. They also don't want others' personal wishes and feelings to interfere with their understanding and decisions when using this function. On this, they can be more disagreeable and less tactful with others who have more heightened emotional sensibilities. 

With this way of decision making in mind, they can be not that concerned with mantaining social harmony or in and weighing their thoughts and decisions with others' thoughts and decisions for the sake of mantaining a harmonious, accepting common ground, one of the key elements of the feeling function (there's also differences here in feeling, being extroverted or introverted).


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## tenthousandopenbooks (Jan 25, 2011)

Fizz said:


> Would you say it's possible that the OP is talking about an ExTJ?


I'm hesitant to call ExTJs out (even though they would probably like the confrontation) when dealing with a description that seems overly negative, but I definitely understand what you're saying.

I happen to have a very strong T preference, and also what I can only surmise to be a fairly well-developed Fe function. I've never treated another human being like dirt (as far as I can remember) and I'm only arrogant when it comes to intellectual arguments. Thinkers (especially those of the "Perceiver" variety) can be some of the most open-minded and gentle people you'll meet.


Another note: Someone who is "volatile" is more likely, in my opinion, to be a Feeler. Thinkers tend to always appear emotionally "flat", at least on the outside. I know I tend to keep my cool regardless of what chaotic nonsense is taking place outside. Feelers are usually more susceptible to mood swings and spikes.


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## ReuBurn (Oct 8, 2010)

Thanks for your input. I was confused because, being the curious person I am, found that people generally thought Beethoven and Hitler are INFJs and looking up the traits I found that they are "warm and affirming by nature", "sensitive and concerned for others' feelings", "extreme dislike of conflict and criticism" and so forth. I understand that people can act out of character sometimes (I can be a huge dick and I know it) but ultimately after some time they revert back to their "true selves". Then again, INFJs are hugely complex people.

I'm not trying to take a stab at Ts but am greatly interested in the personalities of the monumental people of the past. Some people, like Franz Liszt are understandable because he was a showman and flaunted his virtuosity. Thoughts of why they acted the way they did, what were their thought processes and such frequently recur to me. Despising your peers, boasting and criticizing others is uncalled for, and would only injure your career progression and set yourself up for a fall.


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## tenthousandopenbooks (Jan 25, 2011)

ReuBurn said:


> I'm not trying to take a stab at Ts but am greatly interested in the personalities of the monumental people of the past. Some people, like Franz Liszt are understandable because he was a showman and flaunted his virtuosity. Thoughts of why they acted the way they did, what were their thought processes and such frequently recur to me. Despising your peers, boasting and criticizing others is uncalled for, and would only injure your career progression and set yourself up for a fall.


Also, you're not totally wrong. A T is definitely more likely to disregard someone's feelings than an F. That's just not the only factor in anyone who is mean or self-centered. I guess it really comes down to being a well-rounded person and making the best of your shortcomings and strengths, regardless of type or function.


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## Tad Cooper (Apr 10, 2010)

I think Ts might be less round about with the way they deal with emotional stuff, and so might appear that way, when really they're just the ones being the most honest! The scariest people when angry are Fe users I've always found.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

The violent boorish bullies tend to be F/Fi-using men who wish they were T, and are trying to "prove" it. (In my experience). 

Violent = Logical?

er, no.

In fact, anger is an emotion. So if you behave in an angry manner when it's not tangibly advantageous to do so (and it's usually very DISadvantageous), you're acting based on feelings.

Sounds like the definition of an F to me - at least one of the main aspects of the T vs F dichotomy.



or maybe it's just head chemicals zinging around all wrong.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Wow... I appreciate that you are trying to gather information on this, but your post is incredibly and irrationally based on stereotyping.

The quality of a person's interpersonal behavior has nothing to do with personality type. Certain types might be less likely to enjoy socializing or less likely to want to make people happy, but destructive behavior like that is NOT a Thinking trait. In fact, it can often be caused by an unhealthy manifestation of Fi or Fe. For instance, narcissists are primarily Fe-Se. This doesn't make them any more likely to be a nice person, but rather puts all of their focus on how they appear to the external world. They have no empathy, even with the strong Fe, because they can't focus on internal problems. *This is not to say that Feeling types are more or less likely to be cruel, since Thinking types are also likely to have negative manifestations of Fe and Fi when they focus too much on their primary function.

Also, second huge misconception: "I've thought that T types were as attracted to frivolous, impractical subjects such as music as I (an ISFP) am to supervisory roles." I am an INTP with very strong Ti. I have had a strong passion for singing since before I could speak, and went to college for visual arts. I love everything to do with the arts, from music to theater to painting and creative writing. I have a strong passion for learning that has never gotten in the way of my art, only strengthened it. I may not have as strong an Fe as many artists, but I still have a healthy amount of Fe which can definitely shine through in my work.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I don't like dealing with abrasive people because I am so sensitive and take things personally, but, honestly, I'm an INFJ and sometimes I get volatile and abrasive I don't think it's limited to thinkers.


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