# I'm against Feminists, Gays, Lesbians, & Transgenders.



## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh this should get spicy :tongue:

I will keep this simple. Pleas read to the end, or risk misunderstanding my PoV.
Alright here goes.

I'm against feminist views because if they were really for gender equality they would have started a Gender Equality party, where they would promote equal right amongst both genders. So that one wouldn't trample over the other. I am not against woman support, just feminists. Stop trying to be like men, you're undermining your natural womanly power & influence.

Brings me to my second point. Man & woman were created/evolved to complete each other. Like the yin & the yang, two parts of a whole. They create a beautiful balance, having equal but different power & influence. The woman is the centrepiece of the universe, the most eloquent & beautiful existence in the cosmos. Not only in appearance but also in psyche & behaviour. Likewise men too were evolved/designed/engineered to be perfect as a woman is perfect. Each gender is different for a reason but equally perfect to their own purpose. Each brings a different purpose & meaning to life. In other words, Balance & Variation.

Now don't get me wrong, I have close lesbian & gay friends who are all mature enough to respect my views & I acknowledge & respect their free will. I am not against these people, nor do I judge what or whom they are, I simply disagree with them. I believe firmly that every single person is in the very least atleast 5% homosexual. Infact anyone who is horny, comfortable & curious enough will naturally explore the same gender, it's natural & should not be considered wrong or twisted. 

However same sex couplings over throw the natural balance. People have been so repressed & judged for their natural curiosity into homosexual interactions that when they discovered, 'hey it is actually possible to have feelings for the same gender' a natural wave of confessions ensued as people were told that some are just born gay or lesbian.

People are born without sexual preference, it's not until puberty that you start to develop sexually. I admit I have messed around with both genders, many times & have felt the same sexual/physical attraction to both. Let's face it when you are horny you're horny. Some would consider this bisexual, well the truth is everyone is a little bisexual, in the end though there is a natural balance that exists between the opposite genders. Which is why you often see feminine gays & butch lesbians. They make up for the absence of the opposite gender within the relationship.

I heard a story about a kid the other day, 6 or 7 years old who admitted to being gay. Most boys & girls that age will mess around out of curiosity. There is no way that you are sexually or mentally mature at that age. Kids that age still play around with toys, parents who are okay to let their kids mess around with each other at that age simply because they are gay, well to be honest, that's a little ridiculous. 

As for transgenders. If you were born with a penis, be proud of that & make the best of your life as a man, if you were born with a vagina, be proud of your vagina & be the best woman you can be. You are lucky to have won the sperm race against billions of other's for a chance at life. There are people in lesser fortunate parts of the world who count themselves lucky to even have a meal every night. Count your blessings & stop being so selfish. You're perfect & beautiful just the way you are, be proud of yourself, even other try to persuade you otherwise.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Clearly you have put a lot of thought into this, so I can tell nobody is going to change your mind. All I will say is that you are very egocentric. You base the entire world in a very black and white sense off of your own personal feelings/experiences, which is very limiting. Perhaps in your life, men and women complete each other. But it wouldn't hurt to consider that there are other forms of balance equally beautiful and fulfilling which simply do not apply to you.


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## Conclusion (Sep 21, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> I will keep this simple. Pleas read to the end, or risk misunderstanding my PoV.


I read to the end. I'm sorry dude, but it looks like you've profoundly misunderstood feminism and LGBT folks. I could try to explain how, but honestly I think half an hour on wikipedia would serve you just as well, if you're genuinely trying to understand where they're coming from.

Which brings me to point number two:



Gypsy said:


> Count your blessings & stop being so selfish. You're perfect & beautiful just the way you are, be proud of yourself, even other try to persuade you otherwise.


If you don't respect the people around you enough to hear them out about their experiences, rather than calling them "selfish" when those don't match what you think they ought to be, then you never will understand them. Instead you'll be more or less stuck here, with people reading your opinions on the subject and finding themselves not even mad, just disappointed.

So, honest suggestion. Try listening before you speak. A little overture of respect will go a long way.


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## hela (Feb 12, 2012)

Has anyone ever told you that you really look like Legolas from Lord of the Rings? The resemblance is uncanny.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Well, this is going to get interesting... (way to word for controversy, eh, @Gypsy? :wink I'll respond to your points once I'm at a computer; I really don't like using my phone for this. Thought I'd get a subscription while I'm at it, though.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Yeah about the misunderstanding feminism--feminism is a super umbrella and it started out with women's rights because women's rights were underwater. Really, most of the feminists I know are absolutely into gender equality (and I'd wager most feminists in general are).

As for the gay and transgenders--so true. I think the Hiroshima nuclear nightmare was because of one particular couple, so was the Oklahoma City bombings--I mean, these guys just have to keep it in their pants. Just kidding--what? As if the minority homosexuals are causing imbalance? I don't believe it. People need to balance their own feminine and masculine sides more than any couple does--and heterosexuals have some serious bad history with that.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Oddly enough, nothing here has offended me at all.


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

Eh. There's nothing here I haven't read/seen before -- mainly a series of assertions (as well as judgments) informed by limited personal experiences and cherry-picked details to support a heteronormative and heterosexist view of gender.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

devoid said:


> Clearly you have put a lot of thought into this, so I can tell nobody is going to change your mind. All I will say is that you are very egocentric. You base the entire world in a very black and white sense off of your own personal feelings/experiences, which is very limiting. Perhaps in your life, men and women complete each other. But it wouldn't hurt to consider that there are other forms of balance equally beautiful and fulfilling which simply do not apply to you.


Please be fair, I explained why I hold the views I do, they may not be popular but they have weight. I would thoroughly enjoy to hear your explanation on why you differ. This is not a personal attack, it is simply my point of view on the matter. I welcome your side of the story, sincerely. It may be easier to change my mind than you presume, after all this is my current point of view not my final one. Perhaps my tone was too personal, it was not intended so. I am terribly clumsy with my expression, not the most sensitive of people, I apologize in advance.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

Ok so wait:

You're on a personality theory site in which people are quite adept at understanding, personalizing, and analyzing theories that they hadn't seen before. It would seem to reason that these people are open-minded. It would also stand to reason that these people have no fucks-given attitude to the great majority of things without a somewhat solid base.

All you wrote is a reiteration of heteronormative thought. There isn't much personal opinion here that I can't find on thebible.com or the like. Then you post "I am against X Y Z " etc as if you want some sort of debate, but most of us have debated this on our blogs/IRL.

It's stale. It's trite. It's isn't offensive. And it's so sparsely original that it isn't an eye-opening read into your theories. Did you craft this expecting a different, more emphatic response? If so, please individuate and come up with a new angle.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> Ok so wait:
> 
> You're on a personality theory site in which people are quite adept at understanding, personalizing, and analyzing theories that they hadn't seen before. It would seem to reason that these people are open-minded. It would also stand to reason that these people have no fucks-given attitude to the great majority of things without a somewhat solid base.
> 
> ...


Calm it homie. 
If you're not interested in discussing this "oh so trite, oh so spent" opinion then forget me & forget this thread.
Open minded people are allowed to have opinions, it's not a sin.
The may be some new angles if we can get into a debate, all I've had so far is slanders against the opinion which I hold, & a Legolas compliment(thanks for that  I don't think a reasonable debate is too much to ask for, albeit an old debate for some(this happens to be my first one online on this topic).

So once again if you're not interested then forget this thread.
If however you're sport, then what is your sand on the matter & why?


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> Calm it homie.
> If you're not interested in discussing this "oh so trite, oh so spent" opinion then forget me & forget this thread.
> Open minded people are allowed to have opinions, it's not a sin.
> The may be some new angles if we can get into a debate, all I've had so far is *slanders against the opinion which I hold*, & a Legolas compliment(thanks for that  I don't think a reasonable debate is too much to ask for, albeit an old debate for some(this happens to be my first one online on this topic).
> ...


My opinion of your post is that it's addled with subjective views, quite possibly tinged by religion, in which you perceive your way of thought (e.g. 'perfectly crafted for X') as correct. You even go as far as to put it in the sex section because it may garner more responses, when it's clearly something for debate. 

I just don't see any originality in these opinions. It's hive-minded in a sense, and you are not the first bee to come out of the hive attempting to sting....without a stinger.


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## Jetsune Lobos (Apr 23, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> I'm against feminist views because if they were really for gender equality they would have started a Gender Equality party, where they would promote equal right amongst both genders. So that one wouldn't trample over the other.


I agree.

Fortunately for us though, many (if not most) feminist activists already function in that manner 
Oh, sure, there are a few over-zealous feminist spazzes here and there but honestly I think you'll be more hard pressed to find feminist who _don't_ agree with that part of your argument.




Gypsy said:


> Man & woman were created/evolved to complete each other. Like the yin & the yang, two parts of a whole. They create a beautiful balance, having equal but different power & influence.


Now this is where your position starts to get muddied for me. While saying that both sexes create a symbiotic sort of existence when paired together does make sense, the way you state it - and the way you state the rest after just makes whatever you're trying to say seem really vague.

For example



Gypsy said:


> The woman is the centrepiece of the universe, the most eloquent & beautiful existence in the cosmos. Not only in appearance but also in psyche & behaviour. Likewise men too were evolved/designed/engineered to be perfect as a woman is perfect. Each gender is different for a reason but equally perfect to their own purpose. Each brings a different purpose & meaning to life.


And exactly what qualities would those be? And if such beauty is inherent to women, wouldn't a homosexual female couple make even more sense? And why can't said qualities be inherent to men? Where are the distinctions, and why do you think they do/might exist?

I also don't really like the way you used the word 'purpose' here, since it suggests that both sexes should constantly be striving to fit into some type of mold which is already a prevalent notion in today's society and a problematic one at that. 




Gypsy said:


> I believe firmly that every single person is in the very least atleast 5% homosexual.


Sorry, but as a gay male, I've got my own subjective experience to contend with yours. Ever since I hit puberty, all the way up until now, boobies have held very little (none) interest for me. And I've had more wet dreams that involve a certain DiCaprio than I care to remember.

And though I'm sure you pulled that percentage out of the air, it suggests that homosexuality is a choice, and while you may be correct on the semantics of the situation, the insinuation that the attraction on the homosexual's part is a perishable one is offensive, and quite frankly - stupid.



Gypsy said:


> However same sex couplings over throw the natural balance.


What balance is this, and what explicitly do you think same-sex couples have done to upset it? Not trying to be pedantic here, you're just not giving a very satisfactory number of causes for the amount of effects you're throwing out there.



Gypsy said:


> People are born without sexual preference, it's not until puberty that you start to develop sexually. I admit I have messed around with both genders, many times & have felt the same sexual/physical attraction to both. Let's face it when you are horny you're horny. Some would consider this bisexual, well the truth is everyone is a little bisexual, in the end though there is a natural balance that exists between the opposite genders. Which is why you often see feminine gays & butch lesbians. They make up for the absence of the opposite gender within the relationship.


And this is the apex in which I believe your stance reaches absolute folly.

There is literally _nothing_ outside of whatever anecdotal evidence you might have experienced that would suggest that any of that is true. And I'd feel really silly even humoring the thought without something a little more substantial to back it up.




Gypsy said:


> I heard a story about a kid the other day, 6 or 7 years old who admitted to being gay. Most boys & girls that age will mess around out of curiosity. There is no way that you are sexually or mentally mature at that age.


Again, evidence pl0x D:


While I can see why you'd wanna spark a debate on the matter, I think you just started it much too prematurely.


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## GraphicallyAlex (Jul 23, 2010)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> Ok so wait:
> 
> You're on a personality theory site in which people are quite adept at understanding, personalizing, and analyzing theories that they hadn't seen before. It would seem to reason that these people are open-minded. It would also stand to reason that these people have no fucks-given attitude to the great majority of things without a somewhat solid base.
> 
> ...


Why did you even bother to respond then? 
The person does want a discusion, it's in the title of the thread... 
Discussion is often a good thing, and saying that you've "been there and done that" isn't contributing at all. 
If you have been there, then post a link to your blog or something, or don't bother responding.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

Alextllz said:


> Why did you even bother to respond then?
> The person does want a discusion, it's in the title of the thread...
> Discussion is often a good thing, and saying that you've "been there and done that" isn't contributing at all.
> If you have been there, then post a link to your blog or something, or don't bother responding.


"Oh so this should get spicy :tongue:" + posting it in the innapropriate forum (where more LGBLT relations are discussed) + providing or not explaining the basis of his assertions such as '6 and 7' year olds have no sexuality = yeah, I doubt the legitimacy. There is a lot that goes unsaid. 

Nowhere were there facts to corroborate his 'views'...almost as if they were prematurely thrown together without proper consideration of counter-arguments of corroboration of any sort. 

Also, I don't see where he asks what people's views are concerning the topic as much as he explicitly says "this will get spicy".

so I maintain by 'bee without a stinger' appraisal.

As to why I responded: so that people don't waste their time with tautological subjective statements without corroboration. Ultimately, preventing the devolving into "spiciness" with no substance on which to enjoy the 'spice'


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## You Sir Name (Aug 18, 2011)

OP is the typical, bored heterosexual male who has never experienced institutionalised discrimination and doesn't understand the effects these shit threads have on the irrationally discriminated against people who have to deal with these sorts of opinions affecting their entires lives on the daily

hppe you're having fun, OP!


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> My opinion of your post is that it's addled with subjective views, quite possibly tinged by religion, in which you perceive your way of thought (e.g. 'perfectly crafted for X') as correct. You even go as far as to put it in the sex section because it may garner more responses, when it's clearly something for debate.


I am slightly in favour of creation or atleast an evolution alternative, I however did not draw my views concerning this matter from a religious point of view even if they are shared by religious people. I assume your views are pro-LGBT/fems, that is your subjective views as these are mine. Yes I do go as far, because to me this is a question that belongs here, if you differ then so be it.



FlightsOfFancy said:


> I just don't see any originality in these opinions. It's hive-minded in a sense, and you are not the first bee to come out of the hive attempting to sting....without a stinger.


Originality was never my purpose, whether they are second-hand or not they are views I hold, if you can provide a reasonable point of view to persuade me differently you may just do so.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> "Oh so this should get spicy :tongue:" + posting it in the innapropriate forum (where more LGBLT relations are discussed) + providing or not explaining the basis of his assertions such as '6 and 7' year olds have no sexuality = yeah, I doubt the legitimacy. There is a lot that goes unsaid.
> 
> Nowhere were there facts to corroborate his 'views'...almost as if they were prematurely thrown together without proper consideration of counter-arguments of corroboration of any sort.
> 
> ...



If this isn't spicy then please tell me what it is.


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## You Sir Name (Aug 18, 2011)

spicy is you receding into your basement and never coming in contact with another human ever again, even in the limited form of communication on the internet, because spiciness is generally something that most people gain something positive from. like a wonderfully spicy burrito.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

You Sir Name said:


> OP is the typical, bored heterosexual male who has never experienced institutionalised discrimination and doesn't understand the effects these shit threads have on the irrationally discriminated against people who have to deal with these sorts of opinions affecting their entires lives on the daily
> 
> hppe you're having fun, OP!


You haven't even heard my story, how can you be so sure? I used to go to a boys high school, me having long hair & being a little more open about my femininity got my ass kicked more times than I can count. I was bullied severely for my entire high school physically, mentally, emotionally. I know exactly what they are going through, I've been there. I Just didn't let it keep me down. These kids are strong enough to deal with the bullshit, I managed on my own & they can too. Perhaps I have been made a little insensitive, but I have a good heart & I love any gay man or lesbian woman like the next person. I just don't agree on the fact that people are born with a sexual orientation. It is developed.

Well your's was the first reasonable point made, so I'm hoping it picks up from here.


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## You Sir Name (Aug 18, 2011)

nah, nothing's gonna pick up because you are sucked into a toilet of your own tiny life, projecting your experiences onto other people and expecting them to deal with whatever exactly as you have, because people are obviously all the same, life situations be damned, everyone is equally capable of doing the same things and they _definitely _are all the same sexually. 

I'm going to bed, and tomorrow I'll wake up and thank my 2 straight, white, and male brothers for being wonderful and logical with their opinions on other people, and I will spend time with my extraordinarily great boyfriend for also being great and making a difference in the world

fuck discrimination, good night


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Gypsy said:


> Originality was never my purpose, whether they are second-hand or not they are views I hold, if you can provide a reasonable point of view to persuade me differently you may just do so.





That's the thing, dude. Nobody can. Not because there aren't any, but because you will not accept any. That much can be seen simply from the opinions you shared in the OP.



I don't think anything short of a traumatic event could shift a person like you.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

You Sir Name said:


> spicy is you receding into your basement and never coming in contact with another human ever again, even in the limited form of communication on the internet, because spiciness is generally something that most people gain something positive from. like a wonderfully spicy burrito.


Oh dear now you're sounding almost as nasty as I. Anyway you said it yourself, spiciness is generally a positive gain, this time would seem to be amongst the times that didn't quite make the general threshold, unlike a spicy burrito & more like, get me some milk this is just ridiculous, save the sensitive amongst us lest they be devoured by the painful stinging of the spiciness that is the debate.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> That's the thing, dude. Nobody can. Not because there aren't any, but because you will not accept any. That much can be seen simply from the opinions you shared in the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anything short of a traumatic event could shift a person like you.


You misjudge me. Only one person so far has raised a reasonable point, if people keep presuming that my empathy cannot be appealed to, then there's little chance that I'll see the opposing side of the story.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

I love it when straight white men talk about all of the discrimination they have suffered in their lives and how it has led them to have such worldly views on what it means to be different and how if only we could all conform to the natural way of things, everyone could be happy!! Truly eye-opening.


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

I don't get it. What's there to argue/rebut when no argument has been presented in the first place? I might as well be saying something like, "Group X people are fugly and selfish because they don't eat chocolate while living a natural lifestyle" while demanding an 'empathic' response. It doesn't exactly give a positive impression that one is willing to extend the same courtesy and good faith to others in a discussion if somebody is being accusatory as well as judgmental.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Bast said:


> I love it when straight white men talk about all of the discrimination they have suffered in their lives and how it has led them to have such worldly views on what it means to be different and how if only we could all conform to the natural way of things, everyone could be happy!! Truly eye-opening.


I stand convicted. I don't think it would make everyone happy though.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

As much as you find LGBT wrong, it's a natural thing that just happens. My argument for religious people is that if God doesn't want gay people, he wouldn't keep making them. I can't help but wonder why homosexuality in any shape or form would exist if it had absolutely no merit. Evolution doesn't work that way.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Morpheus83 said:


> I don't get it. What's there to argue/rebut when no argument has been presented in the first place? I might as well be saying something like, "Group X people are fugly and selfish because they don't eat chocolate while living a natural lifestyle" while demanding an 'empathic' response. It doesn't exactly give a positive impression that one is willing to extend the same courtesy and good faith to others in a discussion if somebody is being accusatory as well as judgmental.


I don't believe people are born with sexual preference, there's a start. Believe me we are all hypocrites here, I have been judged as I have judged, it goes round in circles. I do not hate gay & lesbian people, I have friends that are who know where I stand yet we still get along dandy. I just don't believe that they were born that way, can anyone prove otherwise? What are some different perspectives on the matter? ETC, ETC....


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

Gypsy said:


> I don't believe people are born with sexual preference, there's a start. Believe me we are all hypocrites here, I have been judged as I have judged, it goes round in circles. I do not hate gay & lesbian people, I have friends that are who know where I stand yet we still get along dandy. I just don't believe that they were born that way, can anyone prove otherwise? What are some different perspectives on the matter? ETC, ETC....


How do you account for heterosexuality? Why isn't/shouldn't the word of an LGBT person who says that s/he has "always been this way" be good enough for you? How do you explain some people who have identified themselves as "heterosexual" for many years -- only to get married, have children and then make the painful decision to separate/divorce after realising their 'true' sexual orientation?


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Kito said:


> As much as you find LGBT wrong, it's a natural thing that just happens. My argument for religious people is that if God doesn't want gay people, he wouldn't keep making them. I can't help but wonder why homosexuality in any shape or form would exist if it had absolutely no merit. Evolution doesn't work that way.


I think the tendency be sexually attracted to the same sex is entirely natural, & should not be judged or considered twisted. I just don't think they should be paired in the end. That is my personal view which is influenced by the universal balance I observe. I think we encounter problems when we insist on disrupting the balance. Is this not a valid & fair observation?


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> I think the tendency be sexually attracted to the same sex is entirely natural, & should not be judged or considered twisted. I just don't think they should be paired in the end. That is my personal view which is influenced by the universal balance I observe. I think we encounter problems when we insist on disrupting the balance. Is this not a valid & fair observation?


Not really, because that's stopping people from being happy. It doesn't strike me as fair to prevent someone from finding true happiness just because they're attracted only to the same gender. Everybody else would have the chance to find a true partner, but homosexuals, nope. And they wouldn't be able to do anything about it, because you can't change your sexuality.

In that situation, they either get with nobody or with someone of the same gender. How is the latter any different from the former? Either way they won't produce any children.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Kito said:


> Not really, because that's stopping people from being happy. It doesn't strike me as fair to prevent someone from finding true happiness just because they're attracted only to the same gender. Everybody else would have the chance to find a true partner, but homosexuals, nope. And they wouldn't be able to do anything about it, because you can't change your sexuality.
> 
> In that situation, they either get with nobody or with someone of the same gender. How is the latter any different from the former? Either way they won't produce any children.


If people are born without sexual preference, then basically that means they can adapt to be happy with either two. Consider that happiness does not come solely from relationships. Even though I sometimes get down, I consider my general state to be happy & I am single, I could be happy in a relationship with either a man or a woman, what would be lacking is the balance that is a woman to a man & a man to a woman. I know plenty of same sex couples who are miserable, likewise I know even more opposite sex couples who are unhappy. Happiness is not dependant on whether you are with the right gender.

From where I'm standing it would seem that homosexuals are so made up their minds that they are born that way & there's nothing they can do about it. This is where I disagree. Just like I believe that heterosexuals are not born that way I also believe that homosexuals are not born that way. Does this make sense?


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> If people are born without sexual preference, then basically that means they can adapt to be happy with either two. Consider that happiness does not come solely from relationships. Even though I sometimes get down, I consider my general state to be happy & I am single, I could be happy in a relationship with either a man or a woman, what would be lacking is the balance that is a woman to a man & a man to a woman. I know plenty of same sex couples who are miserable, likewise I know even more opposite sex couples who are unhappy. Happiness is not dependant on whether you are with the right gender.
> 
> From where I'm standing it would seem that homosexuals are so made up their minds that they are born that way & there's nothing they can do about it. This is where I disagree. Just like I believe that heterosexuals are not born that way I also believe that homosexuals are not born that way. Does this make sense?


Yes, it makes sense, it's just not my opinion. Many people have tried to change their sexuality before, and it hasn't worked. Myself included. That's why they can be so convinced they're made to be that way. 

To a straight person, it would feel like the opposite gender completes them, so sure, that'd make sense. But a gay person wouldn't feel the same way, only somebody of the same gender could make them feel "complete". So really, it could go either way. You can try and "convert" gays if you want, but it won't be received particularly well, and it can be a very mentally damaging thing to try and do. Although it seems to me like you don't actually want to do that, you just want to stir up a little controversy by throwing your opinion out to a community where the majority will oppose it.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Morpheus83 said:


> How do you account for heterosexuality? Why isn't/shouldn't the word of an LGBT person who says that s/he has "always been this way" be good enough for you? How do you explain some people who have identified themselves as "heterosexual" for many years -- only to get married, have children and then make the painful decision to separate/divorce after realising their 'true' sexual orientation?


When a straight person tells me that they would never try anything with the same gender I don't take it seriously because I know that given the right circumstances they would, likewise when a homosexual person tell me they would never try things with the opposite gender I don't take them seriously. This is because I believe that sexual preference is conditioned, they are not born with it, it is developed. People who have been married for years to the opposite sex & turn for the same are perfect evidence to suggest that sexuality isn't as stable as we'd like to think.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

As long as OP is respectful towards those who are feminists, gay, lesbian, and transgendered (which he appears to be) there is nothing wrong with him disagreeing with their lifestyles. As long as he (or anyone) does not intentionally cause harm, I think it's fine. If harm is caused, hopefully apologies would be made and the people involved could come to a mutual understanding.


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

Gypsy said:


> When a straight person tells me that they would never try anything with the same gender I don't take it seriously because I know that given the right circumstances they would, likewise when a homosexual person tell me they would never try things with the opposite gender I don't take them seriously. This is because I believe that sexual preference is conditioned, they are not born with it, it is developed. People who have been married for years to the opposite sex & turn for the same are perfect evidence to suggest that sexuality isn't as stable as we'd like to think.


You have heard of gay people who live in the Bible Belt and are too afraid to "come out", right? Is there any (good) reason to think they have been 'conditioned' to 'adopt' homosexuality in such a repressive social/cultural environment?

What about people who say they've maintained the same sexual orientation for years -- and have never felt the need to 'experiment' with a group they've never been attracted to in the first place? What makes you think they're 'lying' or 'deceiving themselves' -- apart from what your personal beliefs dictate?

A minor point -- but you do realize that some people will take offense if you imply that you know their lives better than themselves...all based on a 'personal belief'?


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Kito said:


> Yes, it makes sense, it's just not my opinion. Many people have tried to change their sexuality before, and it hasn't worked. Myself included. That's why they can be so convinced they're made to be that way.
> 
> To a straight person, it would feel like the opposite gender completes them, so sure, that'd make sense. But a gay person wouldn't feel the same way, only somebody of the same gender could make them feel "complete". So really, it could go either way. You can try and "convert" gays if you want, but it won't be received particularly well, and it can be a very mentally damaging thing to try and do. Although it seems to me like you don't actually want to do that, you just want to stir up a little controversy by throwing your opinion out to a community where the majority will oppose it.


Everybody is wired differently. Some love change, others hate it, some need lots of space, some just want to be cozied in each other's arms all day. We each have a different psyche, some people are so convinced they are a certain thing(straight & gay/lesbian) whilst others don't quite know where they stand & change their minds often. 

The completion I speak of is not same you speak of. I too have felt completed by friends, family, lovers. Human when they connect, they feel a special kind of connection or mutual bond, this is love. It is possible to love any gender. The completion I speak of isn't a feeling, but more of an gradual learning & understanding. It's hard to explain because it isn't entirely felt. It is just a certain balance, I know it is not present in same sex couples because same sex couples almost always compensate by taking on certain gender roles that are missing, as an instinctual compensation.

You have caught me out, I am partially in it for the controversy, I do like to stir things up a little, make people think & reconsider. I also enjoy challenging my own opinions, its how I learn & broaden my understanding.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> Everybody is wired differently. Some love change, others hate it, some need lots of space, some just want to be cozied in each other's arms all day. We each have a different psyche, some people are so convinced they are a certain thing(straight & gay/lesbian) whilst others don't quite know where they stand & change their minds often.
> 
> The completion I speak of is not same you speak of. I too have felt completed by friends, family, lovers. Human when they connect, they feel a special kind of connection or mutual bond, this is love. It is possible to love any gender. The completion I speak of isn't a feeling, but more of an gradual learning & understanding. It's hard to explain because it isn't entirely felt. It is just a certain balance, I know it is not present in same sex couples because same sex couples almost always compensate by taking on certain gender roles that are missing, as an instinctual compensation.
> 
> You have caught me out, I am partially in it for the controversy, I do like to stir things up a little, make people think & reconsider. I also enjoy challenging my own opinions, its how I learn & broaden my understanding.


It's fine to challenge your own opinions, but you're very strongly refusing to shift them. I agree with what Morpheus said, you're telling people you know them better than they do. 

I think we can leave it here, because there's clearly no use in discussing this; we're only going to keep to our own opinions.


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## Hunger (Jul 21, 2011)

Morpheus83 said:


> You have heard of gay people who live in the Bible Belt and are too afraid to "come out", right? Is there any (good) reason to think they have been 'conditioned' to 'adopt' homosexuality in such a repressive social/cultural environment?
> 
> What about people who say they've maintained the same sexual orientation for years -- and have never felt the need to 'experiment' with a group they've never been attracted to in the first place? What makes you think they're 'lying' or 'deceiving themselves' -- apart from what your personal beliefs dictate?
> 
> A minor point -- but you do realize that some people will take offense if you imply that you know their lives better than themselves...all based on a 'personal belief'?



I think repression is a big reason to encourage curiosity. Women who come from a strict church upbringing ere hands down the most sexual I have been with. Why? Build up I reckon, but what would I know. The majority of people will not venture outside of their sexual orientation once they have come to a decision, I guess they just accept, hey this is who I am, nothing's gonna change that. So basic acceptance. It does vary, if we took MBTI, Enneagram, etc into consideration on every case we'd get a clearer indicator on each individual. There's hardly a vague answer that would be true for every member. Remember I am also talking about straight people here.

It is not my intention to cause offence deliberately, but if in expressing my views I do so then I think people are too pissy anyway. I don't claim to know anybody's life, I just think that every single human being is born without sexual preference, regardless of how colourful or colourless their lives may be. I do not force anyone to share my beliefs, I'm just throwing it out there in hopes of starting an interesting debate such as this & learning a few things along the way.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

mimesis said:


> WOW weren't you the guy telling the other one not to edit posts? :tongue:


I added stuff. I never changed my initial post. I just made it personal as well. 

We have crossed swords before and you couldn't let go of that. That's why I edited my post. Next time, just stick to the facts and don't make it personal. It means nothing to me anyway.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

fourtines said:


> Okay, before I say this, I want you to know this entire time I've sit here and felt utter emotional calm.
> 
> Anyway, to let you in on a little secret, since you think you're so Holier Than Tao, the Taoist position on homosexuality is non-existent. There's actually nothing in the Tao that suggests homosexuality is bad.
> 
> Your comments in general about me and other people are pretty nasty, I don't know if you're even self-aware enough to realize this, and perhaps that's why you find my attitude toward you so shocking, because you don't see how you're speaking or writing yourself.


No you're not. Your tri-type is 684 and you're being super aggressive and reactive all the time and I think you're rather unhealthy. You were provoking me the entire time. I made your blood boil and you were steaming. If you're calm, you don't take things personal. You were swearing and cursing. 

Now, I don't deal well with hypocrisy and people who are corrupting yoga and Taoism. I haven't insulted anyone here but you. I called you naive and that's where you exploded.

You're just stubborn and proud and you have an ego as big as the Eiffel tower. There is no way that you could have taken notice of the I Ching. I have seen your aggression in the ENFP sub forum last week. You were fighting there as well. Drop the ego, it's brittle like I said.

I don't like your attitude. You keep twisting and changing my beliefs to your own benefit because you're assuming the worse all the time. You lack any form of rationality because you can't let go of your inferior ego.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

... just when I thought this thread couldn't get any stranger.

This is awesome!


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Sonny said:


> ... just when I thought this thread couldn't get any stranger.
> 
> This is awesome!


For serious.


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## Morpheus83 (Oct 17, 2008)

Whoah! I sure didn't expect the thread to take this turn. It's...interesting?


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

Gypsy said:


> Men & women's anatomies are entirely different. Men have more testosterone & women more oestrogen. Women can bare children & therefore have wider hips & breasts. The chemical imbalance amongst gender usually leads to feminine males or masculine females, ofcourse other psychological or environmental factors play an important role. Even just psychologically speaking men & women are entirely different. It could not be insisted that men & women are only genitals apart, that's absurd. Sure you get butch women & finely built men, but even then, they are miles & miles apart.
> 
> If they were so close together then transgenders wouldn't kick up such a fuss about being the other gender.
> 
> Say what you like, but there is no more extravagant a way to disapprove of yourself than to change your gender. How can you call that pride? It is the very antithesis of pride. People are far more intuitive than they realize. The subconscious mind registers details which the conscious being skips. When someone is unconfident in who they are, it registers to others on a subconscious level. People who are naturally confident & genuinely love themselves are easily loved by others. There is no greater harm you can do yourself than to buy into disapproval of yourself. Now I entirely blame the individuals, we unfortunately live in a society where the bar is unrealistically high, everything is a struggle to the top, to look good, belong, fit into this constantly shifting image created by a backwards society. If it changes anything I really do feel for trangenders. They really are brave to go all the way to change their genders to "fit in" somewhere, but they are so stupid. It really is a tragedy of the modern day & age. If only they realized the beautiful lovely people they were & that they didn't need to change who they were born as to be happy.


It's not so they can "fit in". It's so when they wake up in the morning and look in the mirror they can actually see themselves and not the cocoon they were born into. Using your logic of them being the sperm that made it: shouldn't they do everything in their power to be the person they want to be? Shouldn't they make use of everything that's around them? I don't understand your logic. 

Look, you're not a bad person. In fact, you're necessary. People like you give others the passion to change things for the better. People like you finally break them so they stand up and start making a difference. People like you are the catalysts for progress, because you fight it. You do your part by adding to the mass of voices who only push those who want equality to succeed even faster than they would have if you just stayed quiet.

As for you being understanding? I'll start to believe it when your "lesbian & gay friends" become just "friends" and not a compartmentalized excuse to back up any claims of tolerance.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> I added stuff. I never changed my initial post. I just made it personal as well.
> 
> We have crossed swords before and you couldn't let go of that. That's why I edited my post. Next time, just stick to the facts and don't make it personal. It means nothing to me anyway.


We could link to that debate if you like. Or is it perhaps better to 'let it go'?


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

mimesis said:


> We could link to that debate if you like. Or is it perhaps better to 'let it go'?


I've stumbled upon a lot of posts of yours and I think you're sensible. I enjoyed reading quite a few actually.
I do think it's a pity though that you act sometimes like this. You don't need it. 

I know my weakness. I act like a condescending priest sometimes which can be annoying to people. But I have read so many books and I have been all over the world, it's hard to summarize those experiences in one post. I'd rather exchange knowledge than to fight over it. 

I am willing to drop everything what occurred between us.


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## segway92 (Mar 7, 2012)

Gypsy said:


> Oh this should get spicy :tongue:
> 
> I will keep this simple. Pleas read to the end, or risk misunderstanding my PoV.
> Alright here goes.
> ...



I think it's a bit broad with not enough detail to really support any view. Also how does same sex couplings over throw the natural balance? What's considered natural? I'm asking because I want to understand why you think/feel this. Honestly reading about the balance of nature it seems the reaction to same sex couplings seems to throw us off not the actual act itself. Anyways it seems nature will balance itself out. 

I hope I'm not coming off offensive. That is not my intent. I'm just very curious..

Also I have to admit I agree with a lot of things your wrote. Such as men and women complete each other (mostly all of what you wrote). But I get a little confused why you think( or make it seem) some homosexuals don't have that balance in their life. Personally I like women but I have a gay man that completes me and will be the father of my children. Maybe I'm just missing your point. Either way I always think it's impossible to really have such an opinion because it'd be almost impossible to validate. Not just your opinion but really any concerning such topics. Everyone is different (that you can validate).


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## 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 (Nov 22, 2009)

Gypsy said:


> I'm against feminist views because if they were really for gender equality they would have started a Gender Equality party, where they would promote equal right amongst both genders. So that one wouldn't trample over the other. I am not against woman support, just feminists. Stop trying to be like men, you're undermining your natural womanly power & influence.


 Don't stereotype. Feminists are very diverse. There are men haters and those that reject being female, but there are also those that believe in equality and want to undo the system. Since men are neutral in the system, the way to undo the system is to focus on females, and the social constructs surrounding them, for both men and women's sake.



> Brings me to my second point. Man & woman were created/evolved to complete each other. Like the yin & the yang, two parts of a whole. They create a beautiful balance, having equal but different power & influence. The woman is the centrepiece of the universe, the most eloquent & beautiful existence in the cosmos. Not only in appearance but also in psyche & behaviour. Likewise men too were evolved/designed/engineered to be perfect as a woman is perfect. Each gender is different for a reason but equally perfect to their own purpose. Each brings a different purpose & meaning to life. In other words, Balance & Variation.


 There are plenty of men and women who don't complete each other in bad relationships, as there are people of the same gender. Relationships are too complicated for you to isolate homosexuality as something that causes them to be incomplete. True there are many differences between genders, but most, almost all, of them are socially constructed, part of a system that doesn't work. You can't build a good relationship based on social roles. The yin and yang thing is an ideal that fails reality. Most people are happier with someone similar to themselves (similarity goes for all areas).

There is no reason they should need to be perfect according to evolution. They only need to make babies. Any deep connections we make will be on our own merit. Nor can there be an objective should. What is objective can be measured and quantified. Otherwise, it is subjective and is actually determined by the opinions of the people involved.



> Now don't get me wrong, I have close lesbian & gay friends who are all mature enough to respect my views & I acknowledge & respect their free will. I am not against these people, nor do I judge what or whom they are, I simply disagree with them. I believe firmly that every single person is in the very least atleast 5% homosexual. Infact anyone who is horny, comfortable & curious enough will naturally explore the same gender, it's natural & should not be considered wrong or twisted.
> 
> However same sex couplings over throw the natural balance. People have been so repressed & judged for their natural curiosity into homosexual interactions that when they discovered, 'hey it is actually possible to have feelings for the same gender' a natural wave of confessions ensued as people were told that some are just born gay or lesbian.
> 
> People are born without sexual preference, it's not until puberty that you start to develop sexually. I admit I have messed around with both genders, many times & have felt the same sexual/physical attraction to both. Let's face it when you are horny you're horny. Some would consider this bisexual, well the truth is everyone is a little bisexual, in the end though there is a natural balance that exists between the opposite genders. Which is why you often see feminine gays & butch lesbians. They make up for the absence of the opposite gender within the relationship.


 I agree that everyone is born bisexual in the sense that everyone has the ability to choose. I think the "born gay" thing is for political purposes to make it arguable that homosexuals have no choice and deserve rights for the same reasons as women and blacks. I do believe they deserve such rights; I just don't buy the being born gay thing. Sexuality is fluid, but societally created ideals cause us to put it into a box. People don't like it when you blur the lines or don't fit into their box. Bisexuals are most discriminated against even more than gays for blurring those lines. Even gays have roles that they can fall into that are proliferated by gay culture. People alienate themselves from themselves and fall into roles sexually and otherwise.



> As for transgenders. If you were born with a penis, be proud of that & make the best of your life as a man, if you were born with a vagina, be proud of your vagina & be the best woman you can be. You are lucky to have won the sperm race against billions of other's for a chance at life. There are people in lesser fortunate parts of the world who count themselves lucky to even have a meal every night. Count your blessings & stop being so selfish. You're perfect & beautiful just the way you are, be proud of yourself, even other try to persuade you otherwise.


Actually, I agree with you here. Unnecessary surgeries will not make you whole, they will move you in the opposite direction. And you are changing why? To better match a social role. Though, this is a subject I know little about so I may be wrong in assuming some things, like that you would lose sensitivity from such an operation.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

> I agree that everyone is born bisexual in the sense that everyone has the ability to choose. I think the "born gay" thing is for political purposes to make it arguable that homosexuals have no choice and deserve rights for the same reasons as women and blacks. I do believe they deserve such rights; I just don't buy the being born gay thing. *Sexuality is fluid, but societally created ideals cause us to put it into a box*.


Please _don't stereotype_. The "being gay is a choice" and "everyone is bisexual" misconceptions really aggravate me, because no one in their right mind would _choose_ being gay, and people have spent time and money on trying to "reverse" their orientation because of how ashamed they are. If it were as simple and easy as a choice, then that would make things so much easier. 

Don't get me wrong, I love my SO, but I would LOVE to enjoy the bland invisibility that straight couples do. At least sometimes.

Like you said here, sexuality is fluid. Not everyone is bisexual.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

All in Twilight said:


> I've stumbled upon a lot of posts of yours and I think you're sensible. I enjoyed reading quite a few actually.
> I do think it's a pity though that you act sometimes like this. You don't need it.
> 
> I know my weakness. I act like a condescending priest sometimes which can be annoying to people. But I have read so many books and I have been all over the world, it's hard to summarize those experiences in one post. I'd rather exchange knowledge than to fight over it.
> ...


I think it's safe to assume everyone here thinks s/he knows best. Since we're not likely going to convince the other side, let's just try and have a civil conversation about it, okay?


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## 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 (Nov 22, 2009)

Doll said:


> Please _don't stereotype_. The "being gay is a choice" and "everyone is bisexual" misconceptions really aggravate me, because no one in their right mind would _choose_ being gay, and people have spent time and money on trying to "reverse" their orientation because of how ashamed they are. If it were as simple and easy as a choice, then that would make things so much easier.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love my SO, but I would LOVE to enjoy the bland invisibility that straight couples do. At least sometimes.
> 
> Like you said here, sexuality is fluid. Not everyone is bisexual.


I certainly don't believe it is genetically *determined*, and I do believe that people could choose if they were really able to find themselves, but people don't necessarily choose because orientation is very socially influenced. You do choose, but you really don't. That's how free will works. It is by no means simple; social problems are persistent and difficult to untangle from people's minds. That is why religion has persisted for so long. I've found there are few things in humans that are determined by nature, and many that seem as such are actually nurture.

It isn't just the raw attraction that is socially influenced, it is the way of thinking of putting our sexuality in a box. We are fed notions of love from a young age where love and sex are very intertwined, when in fact they are free-floating. Even those that get beyond that may often still use these ideas as a base. People want to be sexually attracted to someone before they get into a relationship with them, when it often comes later. I choose who I get into relationships with, and I'm generally attracted to who I get into relationships with. Those who aren't are placing too much priority on sexual attraction or are in a relationship with someone they don't/can't love. (I don't force my ideals onto anyone. You do whatever you like, I just think certain mindsets keep people from exploring every part of themselves.)


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## goastfarmer (Oct 20, 2010)

You know what this thread needs? Popcorn.



















Yep. Now, I am really enjoying myself.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

> I certainly don't believe it is genetically *determined*, and I do believe that people could choose if they were really able to find themselves, but people don't necessarily choose because orientation is very socially influenced. You do choose, but you really don't. That's how free will works. It is by no means simple; social problems are persistent and difficult to untangle from people's minds. That is why religion has persisted for so long. I've found there are few things in humans that are determined by nature, and many that seem as such are actually nurture.


I completely disagree. I think it's a combination of both. While you say it is not simple, you are overly-simplifying it by saying that it is, at base, a matter of choice. Perhaps for some it is - but not for all - and to make such vast statements is very narrow-minded. I can't think of how my orientation was socially influenced at all. I've tried, but it simply doesn't line up with my life experiences and/or nurture/influences. No one can "pin down" these outside influences that cause orientation, because they don't exist.

Nurture always plays a part in everything, but it isn't the only factor. That said, saying that people can choose if they were "really able to find themselves" is a laughable concept. As far as I know, my self isn't hiding anywhere.



> It isn't just the raw attraction that is socially influenced, it is the way of thinking of putting our sexuality in a box. We are fed notions of love from a young age where love and sex are very intertwined, when in fact they are free-floating. Even those that get beyond that may often still use these ideas as a base. People want to be sexually attracted to someone before they get into a relationship with them, when it often comes later. I choose who I get into relationships with, and I'm generally attracted to who I get into relationships with. Those who aren't are placing too much priority on sexual attraction or are in a relationship with someone they don't/can't love. (I don't force my ideals onto anyone. You do whatever you like, I just think certain mindsets keep people from exploring every part of themselves.)


You can't apply your own experience and project it onto a population of people - nor can you do that with your own ideals. You also can't take what is present in our society today and try to apply it to the past, because it isn't applicable - and that wouldn't explain the habits/orientation of our species in a historical context. Raw attraction is not socially influenced for me - nor has sexual attraction ever "come later". However, I respect that it's like that for you. You must understand that your experiences do not indicate truth or absolutes for all; everyone has different genetic make-up that's both pre-determined AND influenced by the way they're raised. I have seen no proof of sexual orientation being a matter of PURE nurture; there is no evidence or even solid theory to back this up. The same goes for supposed bisexuality of every single person. That is a very simple over-generalization and an instance of applying your own life experiences and concepts to everyone. 

Some people are more gay than others, some people are more straight, some people are right in the middle. That's just the reality that goes along with the fact that sexuality is fluid.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

I'd like to pause to offer a stereotyped, yet completely apropos 'gay slang' term now:



> snatching wigsTo humiliate someone. Likely derives from cat fights, where women would grab at each others hair.
> _That girl would not take no shit. She was snatching wigs and taking names._


The OP has gotten his proverbial 'wig snatched' so swiftly and justly by so many posters that chunks of his brain have been taken with it. 










Due to this brain injury, he remains completely unaware of the wig being snatched and continues to spout drivel. 

Let him and his mane (as pretty as it is) RIP


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

saintless said:


> You know what this thread needs? Popcorn.


Yes. With rich, creamery butter! Yum. 

I hope there are free refills.


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