# DCNH - ILI Dominant vs. ILI Creative



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Don Achinelli said:


> Mark Zuckerberg ENTj


I really don't know why he's always typed as an introvert. Why ILE for Hawking, though?


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## Don Achinelli (May 22, 2013)

Hawking was charismatic in his youth, kinda crazy, admired by his colleagues, if you take his young pictures, you easily spot his extroversion. Not ILI at all... ILIs are monotonous and not that active and energetic socially.

Even him older, you can also see that he is soft-hearted, goofball, he has a 'tertiary' Fe. Not Fi at all.

ENTps are masters at discovering new paths in Science. He is an ILE-Ti in Socionics, a more introspective, focused and serious ENTp. These ENTp-Ti's are often wrongly typed as INTJ in MBTI. Another classical ENTp-Ti is Nikolas Tesla, who looks very introverted by pictures, but is just a serious and intellectual ENTp, which is the most 'introspective' extrovert. 

Often ENTps are mistyped as other types because of the MBTI stereotype that all ENTPs are crazy and non-serious. There are all kinds of ENTps: the crazy ones, serious ones, artists (emotional), and so on. It all depends on the function which he individual focuses the most: is it Ne, Ti or Fe.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Don Achinelli said:


> Hawking was charismatic in his youth, kinda crazy, admired by his colleagues, if you take his young pictures, you easily spot his extroversion. Not ILI at all... ILIs are monotonous and not that active and energetic socially.
> 
> Even him older, you can also see that he is soft-hearted, goofball, he has a 'tertiary' Fe. Not Fi at all.
> 
> ...


Is there a good video that showcases his cognition well?


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## Don Achinelli (May 22, 2013)

I think the Intuition and Thinking are sometimes similar in their Extroverted and Introverted manifestations, because N and T are always very detached functions from reality, be it Te, Ne or Ti, Ni. All the NTs can look rather cold and introverted, but it's because of a lack of "Feeling" and "Sensing", which are more warm and accepting functions.

Now, the greatest distinction between ENTp and INTp (INTJ) is that one uses Fe, the other Fi. One is an extrovert, the other a stereotypical introvert (ILI has Fe polr, is very cold and distant, and also has low energy).

Hawking being a socially active student, engaged in sports, clubs, and involved with people, naturally classifies him as an Extrovert. We don't even need to compare NeTi vs NiTe.

But we could: Quantum physics is a very NeTi field - it sees possibilities (Ne) and systems (Ti) in the universe. Highly abstract information (Ne, Ti) with little practicality (little Te, Se).

NiTe (INTJ) would be more engaged in practical science (Chemistry, Engineering*, IT*), or Economics, Politics, more (Te) fields, related to empiricism and efficiency.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Don Achinelli said:


> I think the Intuition and Thinking are sometimes similar in their Extroverted and Introverted manifestations, because N and T are always very detached functions from reality, be it Te, Ne or Ti, Ni. All the NTs can look rather cold and introverted, but it's because of a lack of "Feeling" and "Sensing", which are more warm and accepting functions.
> 
> Now, the greatest distinction between ENTp and INTp (INTJ) is that one uses Fe, the other Fi. One is an extrovert, the other a stereotypical introvert (ILI has Fe polr, is very cold and distant, and also has low energy).
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I can't say that I find any of your arguments very convincing. For one thing, the activities you enlist don't necessarily suggest that he's actually a cognitive extrovert. A social one, perhaps, but it's not like every ILI is going to be a social recluse. Some can develop very healthy and active social lives just fine. Even words such as "charming" are misleading empty buzzwords. Charming in what way? How is he charming? Too subjective and vague. 

Then dismissing that we don't need to compare NeTi to NiTe is ridiculous to me, since the very basis of the typing relies on whether he is NeTi or NiTe. Also suggesting that just because he's in quantum physics is evidence for NeTi is not a strong argument, because I was studying social anthropology, an NF field, and I'm an ILI. Does that make me an IEI? Of course not. Just like you find ESEs like Neil DeGrasse Tyson in theoretical physics even though he himself is not an NT. I'm asking for evidence in Hawking's cognition that suggests he favors and thinks with NeTi over NiTe, not that he's not into the fields you just enlisted. Also, chemistry, engineering and IT are not very intuitive fields. All of these are ST fields, generally speaking. Politics can equally be ethics. The only field that really has a Te bias here, is economics.

Point to evidence in Hawking himself that supports and suggests NeTi e.g. he thinks or reason that way about physics, and we actually have something to discuss. Alternatively post a video of him that you think is exemplary of him and fits the ILE archetype well, that I originally requested.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Entropic said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't say that I find any of your arguments very convincing. For one thing, the activities you enlist don't necessarily suggest that he's actually a cognitive extrovert. A social one, perhaps, but it's not like every ILI is going to be a social recluse. Some can develop very healthy and active social lives just fine. Even words such as "charming" are misleading empty buzzwords. Charming in what way? How is he charming? Too subjective and vague.
> 
> Then dismissing that we don't need to compare NeTi to NiTe is ridiculous to me, since the very basis of the typing relies on whether he is NeTi or NiTe. Also suggesting that just because he's in quantum physics is evidence for NeTi is not a strong argument, because I was studying social anthropology, an NF field, and I'm an ILI. Does that make me an IEI? Of course not. Just like you find ESEs like Neil DeGrasse Tyson in theoretical physics even though he himself is not an NT. I'm asking for evidence in Hawking's cognition that suggests he favors and thinks with NeTi over NiTe, not that he's not into the fields you just enlisted. Also, chemistry, engineering and IT are not very intuitive fields. All of these are ST fields, generally speaking. Politics can equally be ethics. The only field that really has a Te bias here, is economics.
> 
> Point to evidence in Hawking himself that supports and suggests NeTi e.g. he thinks or reason that way about physics, and we actually have something to discuss. Alternatively post a video of him that you think is exemplary of him and fits the ILE archetype well, that I originally requested.


I've seen a documentary on him, and there _is _that new movie where his life is dramatized... But, I haven't been able to find a video of him before his disease took a firm hold on his mobile faculties.

He was diagnosed back in 1965, so it's not really likely you'll find a reasonable example. In fact, all signs point to no. Not even a recording.

However-- He _does _appear to have quite a sense of humour, and before his facial muscles were completely stiffened and paralyzed, he appeared to be quite expressive and receptive to social cues.

It's very easy to peg him as an ILI because of his now expressionless, cyborgness. :kitteh:

I'm not saying he's an ILE, though. I don't know enough of him to say accurately.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> I've seen a documentary on him, and there _is _that new movie where his life is dramatized... But, I haven't been able to find a video of him before his disease took a firm hold on his mobile faculties.
> 
> He was diagnosed back in 1965, so it's not really likely you'll find a reasonable example. In fact, all signs point to no. Not even a recording.
> 
> ...


I've looked at some of his quotes but they seem very gamma to me. Very sarcastic only gamma really says stuff about their observations, like this one quote about how he thinks there's life yet to be found in the universe. Intelligent life though? Some argue it's yet to appear on planet earth. He could be an LIE though, I'm not adverse to that. But I have a very hard time seeing an ILE make that kind of very harsh below the belt sarcastic remark.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Entropic said:


> I've looked at some of his quotes but they seem very gamma to me. Very sarcastic only gamma really says stuff about their observations, like this one quote about how he thinks there's life yet to be found in the universe. Intelligent life though? Some argue it's yet to appear on planet earth. He could be an LIE though, I'm not adverse to that. But I have a very hard time seeing an ILE make that kind of very harsh below the belt sarcastic remark.


Even I have my moments with sarcasm-- I don't think sarcasm disqualifies someone from being an Alpha. In fact, my sister and I can be quite sarcastic with each other, poking fun in a lighthearted way. Teasing in such a way isn't irregular among this quadra, because we all know that we don't mean it. But, that's just my experience.

I'm not saying he isn't an ILI or an LIE. As I said-- I don't know enough. But, in my opinion, claiming that sarcasm in humour, on its own, is a bit of a stretch to say it's exclusive to the Gamma quadra.

In fact, I could totally see myself saying a similar thing about intelligent life, particularly to people I don't know. :kitteh:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> Even I have my moments with sarcasm-- I don't think sarcasm disqualifies someone from being an Alpha. In fact, my sister and I can be quite sarcastic with each other, poking fun in a lighthearted way. Teasing in such a way isn't irregular among this quadra, because we all know that we don't mean it. But, that's just my experience.
> 
> I'm not saying he isn't an ILI or an LIE. As I said-- I don't know enough. But, in my opinion, claiming that sarcasm in humour, on its own, is a bit of a stretch to say it's exclusive to the Gamma quadra.
> 
> In fact, I could totally see myself saying a similar thing about intelligent life, particularly to people I don't know. :kitteh:


Yes, I am not saying it's a strong argument. Just that that particular brand of sarcasm does seem more typical for gamma. I would have to read a book by him to get a better feel.


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## Tellus (Dec 30, 2012)

Don Achinelli said:


> None of these guys are ILIs. Unfortunately, the MBTI INTJ sucks.
> 
> Christopher Hitchens ESTj
> Isaac Newton ENTj
> ...


Sigh... just sigh.

There are no ENTj chess players with an Elo rating of 2700 or more... not a single one. Maurice Ashley, a famous chess promoter, is ENTj and his rating is 2440. Gregory Shahade is also ENTj and his rating is 2476.

"John Forbes Nash, Jr. (June 13, 1928 – May 23, 2015) was an American mathematician with fundamental contributions in game theory, differential geometry, and partial differential equations. Nash's work has provided insight into the factors that govern chance and decision making inside complex systems found in daily life.

His theories are used in economics, computing, evolutionary biology, artificial intelligence, accounting, computer science, games of skill, politics and military theory. Serving as a Senior Research Mathematician at Princeton University during the latter part of his life, he shared the 1994 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences with game theorists Reinhard Selten and John Harsanyi. In 2015, he was awarded the Abel Prize for his work on nonlinear partial differential equations."

ISTj? Come on...

Why would Christopher Hitchens be ESTj? Are there ANY ESTj intellectuals?  Who?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Tellus said:


> Why would Christopher Hitchens be ESTj? Are there ANY ESTj intellectuals?  Who?


http://personalitycafe.com/socionic...pe-celebrities-post21857226.html#post21857226


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## Zamyatin (Jun 10, 2014)

Tellus said:


> Sigh... just sigh.
> 
> There are no ENTj chess players with an Elo rating of 2700 or more... not a single one. Maurice Ashley, a famous chess promoter, is ENTj and his rating is 2440. Gregory Shahade is also ENTj and his rating is 2476.
> 
> ...


Are you seriously saying that sensors are incapable of intellectual work, and if they make the attempt they're inferior to intuitives? Even if there is an association between type and tendency towards certain kinds of work, those associations are loose correlations with a lot of deviation around the mean. Hell, you can easily observe that by just looking at the famous individuals used as archetypes for each socionics type; over half of them are writers and some of the most intellectual of those authors were ethicians (e.g. Dostoyevsky).

With bias like that, no wonder you type anybody with half a brain as ILI regardless of how they actually behave or think. Using your reasoning that implies that ENTj is less capable at intellectual work, should I take offense that you're trying to retype me as LIE?


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