# NTs and Drugs?



## SilverScorpio17 (Nov 13, 2009)

I've heard a lot of NTs wanting to try certain drugs for "new experiences." I understand wanting a new perspective on life, but I really believed that NTs would be least likely to be drug users because they value their mind and understand the consequences. 

So why do NTs use drugs, even with the knowledge that it's hurting their body?


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## Pac-Man (Nov 21, 2009)

Psycehdelics, buddy.They alter the consciousness temporarily to provide new perspectives with minimal adverse effects. It is the drug for the sages, gurus, theoretical scientists and philosophers. All drugs have side-effects, legal and illegal, but not at all illegal drugs have strong, probable long-term consequences.


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## The Psychonaut (Oct 29, 2009)

hallucinogenics...not only psychedelics but also dissociatives and and schizo (or "true") hallucinogens as well. they are just so fucking amazing . i can say without a doubt, if i did not use hallucinogens i would not be as open minded to other peoples opinions, and i would still be in a deep state of depression. 

also...NTs are less likely to fall prey to the PROPAGANDA spread about drugs by "The Man" (see William Randolph Hearst and his war on Hemp because it threatened his wood pulp paper interests)


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## SilverScorpio17 (Nov 13, 2009)

Pac-Man said:


> Psycehdelics, buddy.They alter the consciousness temporarily to provide new perspectives with minimal adverse effects. It is the drug for the sages, gurus, theoretical scientists and philosophers. All drugs have side-effects, legal and illegal, but not at all illegal drugs have strong, probable long-term consequences.


So you're saying that you know all drugs have side effects, and that you're okay the side effects from hallucinogens because you gain something that's worth it? I guess that makes sense, if you're willing to take the risk.



wannaBgonzo said:


> hallucinogenics...not only psychedelics but also dissociatives and and schizo (or "true") hallucinogens as well. they are just so fucking amazing . i can say without a doubt, if i did not use hallucinogens i would not be as open minded to other peoples opinions, and i would still be in a deep state of depression.
> 
> also...NTs are less likely to fall prey to the PROPAGANDA spread about drugs by "The Man" (see William Randolph Hearst and his war on Hemp because it threatened his wood pulp paper interests)


And...you just think the hype about all the side effects resulting from hallucinogens is fake? I guess it never hurts to do your own research, but I think there are long-term effects.


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## TurranMC (Sep 15, 2009)

I'm interested in trying various drugs for the experience, but overall I see them as pointless. Some people do drugs because supposedly they can evaluate their problems better, but wouldn't it be smarter to simply learn to deal with shit without drugs? To say "I have a problem, but I can't handle it until I use some ____" is crazy to me. Others use drugs simply because it makes them feel good, but again I'd rather learn to see the positives in life without drugs. To depend on any drug for pleasure sounds pathetic to me really.


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## Pac-Man (Nov 21, 2009)

SilverScorpio17 said:


> So you're saying that you know all drugs have side effects, and that you're okay the side effects from hallucinogens because you gain something that's worth it? I guess that makes sense, if you're willing to take the risk.
> 
> 
> 
> And...you just think the hype about all the side effects resulting from hallucinogens is fake? I guess it never hurts to do your own research, but I think there are long-term effects.


All drugs have substantial trials when synthesized in a regulated research laboratory. You have faith in legal drugs, correct? There are designer drugs, of course, that clandestine chemists develop without any regulation, and I appropriately avoid these drugs to not play russian roulettes.


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## SilverScorpio17 (Nov 13, 2009)

TurranMC said:


> I'm interested in trying various drugs for the experience, but overall I see them as pointless. Some people do drugs because supposedly they can evaluate their problems better, but wouldn't it be smarter to simply learn to deal with shit without drugs? To say "I have a problem, but I can't handle it until I use some ____" is crazy to me. Others use drugs simply because it makes them feel good, but again I'd rather learn to see the positives in life without drugs. To depend on any drug for pleasure sounds pathetic to me really.


I agree, I'd rather find other ways to experience different perspectives.



Pac-Man said:


> All drugs have substantial trials when synthesized in a regulated research laboratory. You have faith in legal drugs, correct? There are designer drugs, of course, that clandestine chemists develop without any regulation, and I appropriately avoid these drugs to not play russian roulettes.


Well, not complete faith, but they're safer as long as the right dosage is used. Yeah, the designer drugs are the dangerous ones.


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## grebarius (Dec 27, 2009)

It depends on the drug. This is just a hunch but I think certain drugs suit certain people better than others. For example, psychedelics would be for NT's because the experiences allow for heavy intuiting/thinking. I think NT's would be drawn toward new experiences anyway. It's definitely something that needs figured out.


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## windex (Dec 24, 2009)

Nootropics are the best.


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## windex (Dec 24, 2009)

Pac-Man said:


> All drugs have substantial trials when synthesized in a regulated research laboratory. You have faith in legal drugs, correct? There are designer drugs, of course, that clandestine chemists develop without any regulation, and I appropriately avoid these drugs to not play russian roulettes.



Why? So you can die of cancer regardless. Out of curiousity, do you avoid fast food? Or do you say, "i avoid designer drugs" while sipping your Mcd's mocha and eating your Big Mac. Because I love these type of people. They make me smile when they say quit smoking while drinking their coca-cola. "Sure thing, smoking is terrible, nice teeth."


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

I don't drink and that's hard for even a sixteen-year-old to do in Ireland. I think it's pretty stupid to drink or do drugs, I have many reasons if someone wants to hear them. I'm a stubborn person and I know already that I won't be drinking or doing any sort of drug in the future.

It's not just about keeping my mind clear or my body clean it's the fact that I just don't see that point of it. People act like it's a natural human instinct to want to take part in any sort of drug, but no, it's a natural human instinct to try to fit in. And when you're an adult who doesn't drink apart from relgious nuts? I don't see it as entertaining at all because of what I know about it. It may be fun or whatever some people's arguments might be but it wears off quickly and leaves you drowsey and moody.

The only plausible reason I can think of for consuming any sort of drug is because it's what everyone does around you and it's a way to not feel left out, but that alone is defintely not a good enough reason for me to take part in it. Or of course if it's needed for medical reasons (like marijuana)

People need to question why they're doing things, if it wasn't accepted by society and people didn't see it as normal face it, you wouldn't be doing it. (Drugs are accepted as normal by a lot of people's standards, I'm not only talking about alcohol)


Depending on drugs for anything other than a sickness shows a weak character by my standards.


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## Slkmcphee (Oct 19, 2009)

NTs are master-rationalizers. If we want to do something bad enough, or are curious enough about something, we will find a way to rationalize it in our own minds. We might even get you to "buy" it.

Usually, for an NT, curiousity is the driving force behind any experimentation. I tried a lot of stuff once or twice. Now I love my caffeine and when I can get it risk-free (for me), a little herb in the evening. I don't even drink, except socially (that is assuming I have a social life, however...since I am a mom, I do not!).

I try not to judge people based upon what they put into their bodies, so long as they can control their behavior. I know plenty of people who put down a six-pack nearly every night and still function as responsible adults. I have never known anyone who did crystal meth or anything "hard" who could be called responsible. As for designer drugs, I have seen people have a really hard time with them and for some they are a salvation. 

Until all you drink is water, all you pop is tylenol, and the only smoke you inhale comes from your boy scout campfire, maybe we should all just remember that we are human and life is tough. Personally, I will start my day with coffee and end it with a little grass whenever possible.


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## grebarius (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree on the curiosity, for me that was what drove me into the hard stuff, I was never not going to experiment. Fitting in may have had something to do with it in the beginning with cigarettes and weed possibly. but I stand by curiosity.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

Some of the things said about drugs are obvious lies...or urban legends. I wanted the experience. I also wanted to erase some experiences, which different drugs were able to do temporarily. I'm long done with that phase though.


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## Dooraven (Dec 9, 2009)

I've never taken any "street" drugs before - I'm not overly curious on that area. Tobacco either. 
Never drunk (well seriously) before - I had a sip of wine and thought it was absolutely disgusting. Never drank any alcohol related substance afterwards.

Basically, I don't need it, I don't want it so therefore I do not need to consume it (by mouth I mean).

But many NTs and people like to experience "street" drugs. Personally I've never had the drive.


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## Munchies (Jun 22, 2009)

lack there of


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## windex (Dec 24, 2009)

assbiscuits said:


> I don't drink and that's hard for even a sixteen-year-old to do in Ireland. I think it's pretty stupid to drink or do drugs, I have many reasons if someone wants to hear them. I'm a stubborn person and I know already that I won't be drinking or doing any sort of drug in the future.
> 
> It's not just about keeping my mind clear or my body clean it's the fact that I just don't see that point of it. People act like it's a natural human instinct to want to take part in any sort of drug, but no, it's a natural human instinct to try to fit in. And when you're an adult who doesn't drink apart from relgious nuts? I don't see it as entertaining at all because of what I know about it. It may be fun or whatever some people's arguments might be but it wears off quickly and leaves you drowsey and moody.
> 
> ...



But, don't you think your view is so puritanical that it negates all the other possibilities? That you are taking the radically extremely narrow view here? People drink beers occasionally and in moderation and plenty of people use drugs in the same way and a lot of people don't do it because they are too weak to say No(to the cool kids). Peer pressure is the biggest cop out to me. Whatever I've done, I've chosen to do of my own accord and I'm responsible for the consequences. I lead it. But you don't see any anti anti drug commercials on TV because a lot of people choose to focus on the people who do it at dangerous levels. It's not like if I have a few beers after work and don't drive that I'm going to do anything harmful to anyone. You can argue I'm harming myself but what of the studies of how I'm actually helping my heart etc. 

According to your standards, I'm weak. I'm of age and I drink occasionally and I enjoy it. I suppose I'm the walking damned. I should put a black veil over my head and walk face down into the pit of hell? This is a crazy analogy but I only do it for the purpose of exploiting puritanical views that negate the true nature of of the wide spectrum of people who choose to willfully ingest substances for their own enjoyment so long as they do so in moderation and without threat to others in society, I see no harm. 

It's very comical to me when I have in the past bought a pack of cigarettes to receive a lecture from a cashier who works in a store willfully that sells the cancer sticks to me. If she truly believed in her cause, would she be working there? Wouldn't she be working at the anti smoking clinics? A whole different story, I realize but related...

I just think the puritan has blind eyes to the true nature of events. They see things lop-sided but I've been a puritan, a saint, a sinner, an indulger, a moderate, etc so I realize why they see things so narrowly. They have never been around it, truly around it to see the wide range of good, bad, saintly, unholy, etc. I'm just presenting facts from direct experience and not trying to play mr. devil's advocate. I've seen enough to know it very well. 

But, my bet is you won't see anyone thanking me here. Your view is more socially acceptable and in that regard more absurd in my opinion. Here, the fire in me starts to burn. Black and white views are NONSENSE. There is always a distribution in the beLL curve and therefore, isn't it absurd to completely write off something and even further, isn't it absurd to endorse this view without any true, direct knowledge, experience that would negate the idea that it is ALWAYS PEER PRESSURE?


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

windex said:


> But, don't you think your view is so puritanical that it negates all the other possibilities? That you are taking the radically extremely narrow view here? People drink beers occasionally and in moderation and plenty of people use drugs in the same way and a lot of people don't do it because they are too weak to say No(to the cool kids). Peer pressure is the biggest cop out to me. Whatever I've done, I've chosen to do of my own accord and I'm responsible for the consequences. I lead it. But you don't see any anti anti drug commercials on TV because a lot of people choose to focus on the people who do it at dangerous levels. It's not like if I have a few beers after work and don't drive that I'm going to do anything harmful to anyone. You can argue I'm harming myself but what of the studies of how I'm actually helping my heart etc.
> 
> According to your standards, I'm weak. I'm of age and I drink occasionally and I enjoy it. I suppose I'm the walking damned. I should put a black veil over my head and walk face down into the pit of hell? This is a crazy analogy but I only do it for the purpose of exploiting puritanical views that negate the true nature of of the wide spectrum of people who choose to willfully ingest substances for their own enjoyment so long as they do so in moderation and without threat to others in society, I see no harm.
> 
> ...


 

.
I am not endorsing my opinion I am stating it. Also I am speaking from epxerience, that of which is none of your business but experience nonetheless. 


My view is in no way socially acceptable since so many people drink. I think I've somehow made you touchy about this but I do view people as weak when they do things without questioning them. As I said if it wasn't so socially accepted to drink and do drugs then nobody would be drinking or doing drugs now would they? 

It was asked for nts to express their opinions and I did, it wasn't aimed at you. 
You look at my views as if I had this rammed down my throat by adults to avoid peer pressure but that's certainly not the case. I came to this conclusion on my own. In fact earlier on today I was offered a drink by my own parents. You've read too much in to what I've been saying.
I said why I don't drink, not why people shouldn't drink. I know you are of age, I know you're old enough to drink but can you tell me yourself why you drink? If you can answer that question without saying "it's enjoyable, it's fun" then I'll change my mind just for you. There's always exceptions.
You're arguing but you haven't really directed what you were saying at what I was saying. 
For instance I don't drink because of what I've mentioned. But I'm not religious in any way, I do things that do have a point to them (if you think about it) that most people would consider wrong (especially religious people).
And unfortunately not everybody drinks in moderation, I'm sure I can support this with a whole lot of facts so don't even use that as an argument :dry:
Beer is good for you heart and wine is good for you blood. Haha, so why not just eat wheat and eat grapes if that's the reason you drink? alcohol has nothing to do with that.
Don't put my views in a box, I'm not a puritan. Isn't that a bloody religion? The way I see things if you knew more about me isn't in any way like a puritans so once again you've read too much into what I was saying. I'm a lesbian, yeah, I don't think that most people would consider that leading a godly life since I act on that "sin". I've also had pemartial sex and though that's none of your business you'll probably guess that I'm an innocent little religious girl just because I don't see drinking or drugs as valid in my own life. 

And really, what are you talking about Puratins for? They don't even wear make-up wdf? What do you mean by puratin?

Well here's my analogy. Drinking caffeine is a good way for people to get energy. It also makes you giddy and hyper. But nobody would view that as bad because it hasn't killed people as much as alcohol has. 
Imagine if caffeine did have all these affects, yeah it screws up you teeth and makes you fat (like the sugars in some alcoholic beverages do) and yeah it changes your behaviours but what if it started changing people's behaviours to a degree where it killed people just as much as alcohol did? (and don't try to tell me otherwise) Would people take it then?
Alcohol has been accepted for centuries and its point of taking it varies. But what if caffeine crept in that way, would it be the same? 
Most people would say they drink socially, like I said, they'll only drink if everyone else is drinking so they’re not left out.

And you have been thanked so quit whining. I thanked you as well because you've nearly had the best argument I've encountered and to be direct again you're argument wasn't very good. But better than ones before.

The most important question is why.
Even simple things we've accepted and have taken for granted should be questioned everyday otherwise they lead us not even using our brains which we've learned many times is very important :dry:. Why do people drink or do drugs?
To forget their problems? (imo weak) to be more creative (imo weak) to have a good time? (why do we have to drink to have a good time?) For the taste? (I can understand this one) It's just a bit of fun(okay, I don't understand this one, to have a bit of fun? what's fun about being dizzy, a bit giddy, then tired, then moody, then puking, embarrassing yourself, doing things you'll regret and hangovers? That isn't weak, no, that's stupidity) to be their true selves because they're withdrawn and nervous? (imo weak)
And btw, to conclude this, I never said I thought people who drink and do drugs were weak I said people who depend on them were weak unless they have to for an illness :frustrating:

I can come up with one good reason for why drink is good, it provides people with jobs. People who work in breweries ect. But I feel terrible for people who work with tobacco companies, they're never given respect.

Smoking is not as bad as drinking at all. It can be very bad over time but it's more like a habit than anything else, no I don't see a point to it but it's an adult's decision to do it so we shouldn't interfere. As long as it's not harming anybody else and it's not harming anybody else because second hand smoke is a load of me arse :bored: and I don't know why people believe that too without questioning it. You can't get cancer from other people smoking, people should be more skeptical :angry: 

I'm open minded and understanding but I PERSONALLY don't drink because the reasons I've mentioned. I'm not being self righteous or arrogant. I don't try to condemn people or endorse my views. 

And where does thinking in black views and white come into this? There's many shades of grey for a reason, but it's easier to think just in black and white. That's why people get catergorised and their views get put in a box *hint, hint*


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## Alchemical Romance (Nov 26, 2009)

I was left with the impression that NT's don't do drugs because it alters with they're rationality. Who knows maybe NF's we like to fly :tongue:


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## Saboteur (Dec 28, 2009)

windex said:


> Why? So you can die of cancer regardless. Out of curiousity, do you avoid fast food? Or do you say, "i avoid designer drugs" while sipping your Mcd's mocha and eating your Big Mac. Because I love these type of people. They make me smile when they say quit smoking while drinking their coca-cola. "Sure thing, smoking is terrible, nice teeth."












Do you honestly think caffeine falls anywhere near tobacco?


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## εmptε (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't do drugs, drink, or smoke. I might take up smoking E-Cigs but I doubt it. I get natural highs!


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## Interpol (Aug 14, 2009)

NTs would choose to do "soft drugs" for the experience, such as Cannabis. Anything harder, wouldn't be prefered because of the harm it causes, something the "rational" NT would acknowlegde. However, this is just pigeonholing NTs, an individual NT, may do hard drugs out of addition, emotional upheavel or just for pleasure, if their "rational" core is unbalanced.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Alchemical Romance said:


> I was left with the impression that NT's don't do drugs because it alters with their rationality. Who knows maybe NF's we like to fly :tongue:


I get really sick of my mind from time to time, and just want it to shut the hell up for once. Alcohol doesn't shut it up, but if I'm already in a good mood alcohol relaxes me. I will not drink when depressed or angry. My grandfather was an alcoholic, so I know better. I also have some self respect for my internal organs, so I go easy on my liver as a rule.

I don't need to drink on a regular basis to relax, it's more of an indulgence 2-6 times out of an entire year. I have never been hung-over. I take good care of my body during and after having a couple of drinks to help process the toxins. I will say "No." to alcohol far more often than I will say, "Yes." and I don't even care if people make fun of me or take it rudely that I don't want some. I know my body and my mind, and they both said: "No, thanks."



windex said:


> Why? So you can die of cancer regardless. Out of curiousity, do you avoid fast food? Or do you say, "i avoid designer drugs" while sipping your Mcd's mocha and eating your Big Mac. Because I love these type of people. They make me smile when they say quit smoking while drinking their coca-cola. "Sure thing, smoking is terrible, nice teeth."


LOL =)



assbiscuits said:


> It's not just about keeping my mind clear or my body clean it's the fact that I just don't see that point of it. People act like it's a natural human instinct to want to take part in any sort of drug, but no, it's a natural human instinct to try to fit in. And when you're an adult who doesn't drink apart from relgious nuts? I don't see it as entertaining at all because of what I know about it. It may be fun or whatever some people's arguments might be but it wears off quickly and leaves you drowsey and moody.
> 
> The only plausible reason I can think of for consuming any sort of drug is because it's what everyone does around you and it's a way to not feel left out, but that alone is defintely not a good enough reason for me to take part in it. Or of course if it's needed for medical reasons (like marijuana)
> 
> ...


Ohhhh, geeeeez. I want to see you on Ecstacy- which, you'll find if you do some reading, used to be called Empathy.

Wow, I'm sorry, just, everyone at some point in their life can say what you said. I said what you said. Now, I see things quite differently.

My saying that does not paint a picture of my motive, nor of who I am. All it says is, "I did not want to drink alcohol, I did not want to do drugs. I knew exactly why. I decided not to. Then I changed my mind. Now my mind is changed, though some of my opinions have stayed the same."

It's simple. 

There are no morals attached. There was no peer pressure involved. There was plenty of forethought, plenty of questions, plenty of answers, but mostly the experience which a person can only gain by doing something, rather than only talk shit about it. Talk all the shit you want AFTER you have actually tried something, because until then, all you have are anecdotes. You cannot look a person in the eye and tell them that you "understand" what they are going through, until you have that experience for yourself.

I strongly dislike drugs right off the get go because, yes, they are dangerous. Anything dangerous needs to be fully understood for what it is and respected. Not only illegal drugs, but legal / pharmaceutical drugs, as well. My first and last reaction is caution.

I am not compulsive when it comes to trying new things, and I often will try them to, afterward, not repeatedly do them. I got what I needed, what I wanted to know. Some people genetically are predisposed to abuse drugs, and some drugs have the ability to alter and increase cravings for that drug on a chemical, physical level. KNOW your enemy, you'll be a lot better off.

My [ENFP] husband stupidly got involved with intravenous cocaine. He liked it so much that he gave himself to it without thinking twice. I could not watch him do that to himself, so I kept putting myself in his face until he stopped, and the best thing we did was leave that town and the "friends" who were supplying him. I could not tell him "I understand" what I could tell him was "you are paying someone else your money to kill yourself slowly, one pleasurous injection at a time, and I am watching it, and so are you, but I am not going to act like it's ok. All of the pleasure in the world is not going to make it ok. You keep wanting more but won't accept that you're getting less and less out of it. You continue to surrender your will to it, soon there will be nothing of you left but hunger that no drug can satiate. You will be dead, but your body will still be alive, however soon your body too will die. YOU ARE KILLING YOURSELF WITH PLEASURE. All it will leave you with is PAIN."

Trust me, he didn't hear a damn word I was saying, all he felt was the wonderful sensation I cannot even describe to you, here, because I haven't felt it. His uncle died from a heroine overdose, and I could imagine my husband meeting the same fate, but I could not imagine my doing nothing about stopping it. I saw what it did to him; I was never once enticed to want to try it and I would not listen to him try to persuade me to, either.



Saboteur said:


> Do you honestly think caffeine falls anywhere near tobacco?


Interesting chart.


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## Liontiger (Jun 2, 2009)

My drug use has been limited to drinking on the weekends, getting high on marijuana once, a couple cigarettes, and getting high on diphenhydramine for one summer. I can't see myself ever being a regular drug user for anything other than alcohol and occasionally weed. I just like to try it to have the experience and be done with it. However, I would never try anything that would have lasting effects on my brain (such as ecstasy). I've been curious about LSD and shrooms, and perhaps one day I'll try them. But that will be the end of it.

I find that I also like to keep my ability to think clearly and relatively logically. I'll drink enough to either relax myself or get silly, but I never get to the point where I don't remember things or I throw up. This is just unappealing to me. I would like to enjoy the lowered inhibitions while still maintaining my ability to reason.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

This has always baffled me; this idea that any kind of drugs somehow enhance one's perspective. All they do is elicit a purely sensory stimulation that can trick the brain into believing that something deeper and more meaningful is occurring. I dedicate my life to enhancing my strength intellectually (and to a much lesser extent physically), why on earth would I want to then cancel out that work by inducing pointless sensory illusions? I hate how the world around me is already so preoccupied with sensory stimulation at the expense of any sort of meaningful intellectual or emotional exploration. I have no desire to delve deeper into this preoccupation, rather I try to escape it.
If I want to broaden my perspective I read, or in some instances converse with people who think differently from me.


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

SweetSurrender said:


> I get really sick of my mind from time to time, and just want it to shut the hell up for once. Alcohol doesn't shut it up, but if I'm already in a good mood alcohol relaxes me. I will not drink when depressed or angry. My grandfather was an alcoholic, so I know better. I also have some self respect for my internal organs, so I go easy on my liver as a rule.
> 
> I don't need to drink on a regular basis to relax, it's more of an indulgence 2-6 times out of an entire year. I have never been hung-over. I take good care of my body during and after having a couple of drinks to help process the toxins. I will say "No." to alcohol far more often than I will say, "Yes." and I don't even care if people make fun of me or take it rudely that I don't want some. I know my body and my mind, and they both said: "No, thanks."
> 
> ...


 

Why is everyone assuming I haven't had experience? You don't know me, you're the one trying to understand me without personal information. I think people should just respect my views and leave at that. Nothing is changing my mind, sorry :bored:


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## Haruhi Suzumiya (Dec 24, 2009)

perennialurker said:


> This has always baffled me; this idea that any kind of drugs somehow enhance one's perspective. All they do is elicit a purely sensory stimulation that can trick the brain into believing that something deeper and more meaningful is occurring. I dedicate my life to enhancing my strength intellectually (and to a much lesser extent physically), why on earth would I want to then cancel out that work by inducing pointless sensory illusions? I hate how the world around me is already so preoccupied with sensory stimulation at the expense of any sort of meaningful intellectual or emotional exploration. I have no desire to delve deeper into this preoccupation, rather I try to escape it.
> If I want to broaden my perspective I read, or in some instances converse with people who think differently from me.


I certainly think it's feasible that certain substances, notably psychedelics, merely inspire the latent elements of our cognitive prcoessses to become active, effectively removing boundaries that inhibit one's expression of their true ability. However, it is logical to presume each individual has suppressed features of their psychological structure that impede their intellect, therefore this suppression has relevance to one's intellectual progression.

The debate should revolve around whether or not we think it is reasonable for one to overcome these disadvantages with the consumption of substances or other unconventional methods. Yes, there are potential repercussions - the same with numerous other acts that are possibly benficial - but it may be rational to take this route when the adverse effects ar minimized with a contemplative approach.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

assbiscuits said:


> You don't know me, you're the one trying to understand me without personal information. I think people should just respect my views and leave at that.


Trying to understand how you would be on _ecstacy_.

What scientist do you know who ever leaves something "at that"- how boring and un-insightful!


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## Munchies (Jun 22, 2009)

perennialurker said:


> This has always baffled me; this idea that any kind of drugs somehow enhance one's perspective. All they do is elicit a purely sensory stimulation that can trick the brain into believing that something deeper and more meaningful is occurring. I dedicate my life to enhancing my strength intellectually (and to a much lesser extent physically), why on earth would I want to then cancel out that work by inducing pointless sensory illusions? I hate how the world around me is already so preoccupied with sensory stimulation at the expense of any sort of meaningful intellectual or emotional exploration. I have no desire to delve deeper into this preoccupation, rather I try to escape it.
> If I want to broaden my perspective I read, or in some instances converse with people who think differently from me.


you have never experienced drugs. 

there is much to be learned from different perspectives of things do you not think so? not saying its the right thing to do. butyou get a very different perspective from different ones. 

sometimes it can be false, but sometimes you dwell into a deeper self awareness you never thought possible. also you EQ can go up considerably, tearing down the walls fortified in your consciousness revealing deeper awareness into things.

but yeh drugs are bad mmmkay


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

drugs are bad mm'kay, don't do drugs. xD

I personally enjoy opiates. I like being pain free, but I hate being dependent on a medication so I no longer take them. I guess you can only have it one way or the other in certain circumstances. I used to really enjoy hallucinates but I haven't taken them since I was a teen. I have no strong objections against drug use. If someone is miserable without them you may as well let them be less miserable with them.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

I personally don't appreciate marijuana, though my husband does. That has nothing to do with what marijuana actually is or actually does. See how I can separate the issue into opinion versus fact? A view is just a view... a view is basically like saying you like or dislike the ocean, failing to mention whether or not you've actually been to the ocean, and then failing to realize that 1 ocean is not ALL oceans.

Respect should be earned, not expected.



RighteousRob said:


> drugs are bad mm'kay, don't do drugs. xD


LMAO!


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## Haruhi Suzumiya (Dec 24, 2009)

Certain illegal drugs are relatively harmless with the correct dosages and constituents according to trials. There are drugs which I advise people to avoid, but I think it is possible for cerain drugs to be consumed rationally when the user has the appropriate knowledge.

There are various reasons for drugs being classified as 'illegal', including mere impracticality with usage. Drugs are ordinarily permitted to be distrubed officially when they are both harmless and beneficial. Cigarettes and alcohol are exceptions as a result of acceptance within our society. It would be irrational for the Government to cease distrubition of these accepted drugs when the repercussions would be negative.

People need to understand that there are categories of illegal substances that need to be considered when criticizing 'illegal drugs' as a whole. You should analyze each category of drugs and criticize them individually, not dismiss all of them as if all categories are identical. Research the schedules of drugs for a clear comprehension of the classification and contemplate whether or not these individual reasons for each drug are valid.


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## Conjugated (Jan 7, 2010)

TurranMC said:


> I'm interested in trying various drugs for the experience, but overall I see them as pointless. Some people do drugs because supposedly they can evaluate their problems better, but wouldn't it be smarter to simply learn to deal with shit without drugs? To say "I have a problem, but I can't handle it until I use some ____" is crazy to me. Others use drugs simply because it makes them feel good, but again I'd rather learn to see the positives in life without drugs. To depend on any drug for pleasure sounds pathetic to me really.


Depending on a computer or television for pleasure can sound pathetic to others. I think many people (especially those who have not tried many drugs) take the view that the ones who use drugs as a form of entertainment are weak minded or cannot find fun in life without said drugs.

I believe this is a generally hypocritical view since pretty much everyone depends on a mode of entertainment to alleviate the day's stresses or boredom, be it television, surfing these forums or going out on a run. Are they so weak minded or pathetic to deal with their problems that they have to focus their attention on something to pleasure them? No they are not. I know this analogy isn't exactly sound, obviously there's the risk to the user's short and long term health involved in quite a few illegal or illicit drugs but entertainment wise, what's the big difference that makes the drugs users pathetic?


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## Munchies (Jun 22, 2009)

your comparing the Simpsons with a tab of ecstasy?


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## Conjugated (Jan 7, 2010)

Munchies said:


> your comparing the Simpsons with a tab of ecstasy?


Harm to health aside, yes. At the core they are both forms of entertainment.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

idontsmokedareefa said:


> , what's the big difference that makes the drugs users pathetic?


The inability to hold a job
The inability to maintain financial security
The inability to relate to others
The inability to be anything other than selfish
The absolute dependency on an external source
And as you already listed, the rot that is imposed on the body from drug use

Yes, there are addictions to things other than drug use that are quite comperable, but I would think that the majority of people who spend an hour a day watching television aren't failing at life nearly as badly as a drug addict is.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

SilverScorpio17 said:


> I've heard a lot of NTs wanting to try certain drugs for "new experiences." I understand wanting a new perspective on life, but I really believed that NTs would be least likely to be drug users because they value their mind and understand the consequences.
> 
> So why do NTs use drugs, even with the knowledge that it's hurting their body?


People hurt their bodies every day. Some harm is temporary, some harm is permanent.

How many of those manage to broaden their perspective every day? to challenge their own biased concepts? A drug is not necessary to do so, but it can do so.

"Know thyself."

"Nothing to excess."

A person can live their whole lives believing something to be true without KNOWING it to be true. Some NTs would say that is perfectly acceptable, to live life through someone else's experiences but not their own.

I would think an NT can wield the common sense to approach things with caution and reason without the intellectual restriction of thinking, "Oh, I must know everything!" or "Well, this is the popular view, it must be 100% accurate if it's popular". Sadly, something being popular in not an indication of its value or a sign that the people who have popularized it have done all of their research to understand it fully. An NT of all types should be able to explore possibilities, should be able to recognize that humanity still doesn't have everything figured out, even that there are huge errors in our judgments of things and that often misinformation is used to further someone's agenda.

The most fun is asking all of the questions to figure out what that agenda could be. Once you understand someone's agenda, you've got all their tactics ready to look at from a completely different point-of-view and the information or misinformation can be seen in a whole new light. In this not an aspect of intuition?

Of all people, they should recognize that genius comes about from questioning and revelation from questioning leads to the development of new technology. Most scientists make new discoveries while in pursuit of knowledge -whether by accident or on purpose- not assuming that they knew everything when they started, as that is the essence of proving or disproving a theory. A theory is a golden example of how a person must suspend their understanding of the world in order to gain further, more accurate, understanding.

Prescription drugs, car exhaust, sugar, energy boosters, nicotine, over-the-counter pain relievers, etc. Most people will not stop to think about the fact that they ARE hurting themselves. "If everyone else does something casually, why shouldn't I?" people might be thinking. After I took birth control pills my vision went to crap. After I took oral antibiotics for an ear infection, my digestive system remained wrecked for 10 years and counting. Both of those examples were prescriptions given to me by supposedly in-the-know doctors; they knowingly expose patients to further health risks thinking that they did it for the right reason, so they never question if it was the correct solution. A doctor who does not understand all the implications of harm that a drug can put on their patient has failed, most especially if they knew but did not inform the patient. Today, everyone must practically be their own doctor in order to avoid such serious, life-altering and even fatal mistakes.

Everyone must even consider that modern medicine has become a huge failure with its "treat the symptom, not the cause" mentality.

If all of us live life believing that we have all the answers, humanity is doomed to even further harm itself. Innovations are not made by thinking we know everything and just how it should be.

At this point, drugs are treated as the dangerous things that they are, but are left to be a mystery and labeled in such a way as to invite even more curiosity. The controversy should not even be about the drugs, but about how human beings are failing each other and themselves- thinking they don't need to understand, that they only need to partake. Many people don't even stop to adequately weigh the consequences or to challenge their own reality BEFORE taking a drug, not AFTER.

NTs should certainly have the resources with which to best protect themselves from harm BEFORE as well as AFTER.

In reality, we are our own worst enemy- not the drug. Our own pride and arrogance will kill us, not the substance. After all, the substance does not force feed itself to anyone. The user becomes the abuser and must therefor take accountability. Spreading the belief that the drugs are the "bad" guy predisposes a person to exchange reason for morality, wielding no personal responsibility at all, sacrificing the blame entirely to lay it on the drug. THAT is highly irresponsible and immature. The whole anti-drug campaign is, "We can't control people, but we can control access to a drug." When, in reality, they can't control ANYTHING and are far less interested in teaching people self-control- they've tried and tried for decades, but are only slowly making gains.

Some harm is temporary, some harm is permanent. I am able to decide once fully informed whether or not I want to take that risk, as most people should be. I knowingly and fully accept responsibility in order to broaden my perspective, and I take it very seriously. Not everyone has to learn just from their own experiences, not everyone has to learn just from other people's experiences. My life as NT has taught me that I absolutely learn the most when those 2 approaches/perspectives are combined.


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## Conjugated (Jan 7, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> The inability to hold a job
> The inability to maintain financial security
> The inability to relate to others
> The inability to be anything other than selfish
> ...


Depending on the person, I agree most of this is true for drug addictions. The point I was trying to make is that it's not pathetic to use them in moderation as a form of entertainment, and the many people who do use them for entertainment are not necessarily ill equipped to deal with life and by all means can have fun without them.

Oh, and a drug user does not equate to a drug addict.

Edit: Nice post sweetsurrender.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

idontsmokedareefa said:


> Depending on the person, I agree most of this is true for drug addictions. The point I was trying to make is that it's not pathetic to use them in moderation as a form of entertainment, and the many people who do use them for entertainment are not necessarily ill equipped to deal with life and by all means can have fun without them.
> 
> Oh, and a drug user does not equate to a drug addict.
> 
> Edit: Nice post sweetsurrender.


I agree user doesn't equate to addict...but depending on the kind of drug(s) used it's easy for use to snowball into addiction.


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

NT who do drugs are a slave to their own nature(human nature), they can't control it.

I defeated alcohol, cigarretes and drugs when i was only 17 years old. 

They were a good challenge, to test my capacity.

I had the idea of spending your life as a slave to your own nature, i want to experience new things in life. no same old alocohol like cigarrete life thats pathetic to me dying with the same life expoeriences as others.

Control your mind rather than being a slave to your mind. Life will be great


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## intj123 (Nov 19, 2009)

hmm pretty odd for an intj to make this post about illegal drugs hurting your body... How about I smoke weed every 5 minutes and you take a legal advil every 5 minutes and see who dies first?


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## Conjugated (Jan 7, 2010)

Versatile Leader said:


> NT who do drugs are a slave to their own nature(human nature), they can't control it.
> 
> I defeated alcohol, cigarretes and drugs when i was only 17 years old.
> 
> ...


Dying with the same life experience as others is pathetic to you? You're either an arrogant bastard or I misinterpreted what you were saying.


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## SilverScorpio17 (Nov 13, 2009)

intj123 said:


> hmm pretty odd for an intj to make this post about illegal drugs hurting your body... How about I smoke weed every 5 minutes and you take a legal advil every 5 minutes and see who dies first?


Whose post are you talking about? 

Legal drugs are still dangerous, but at least they go through the FDA first (I'm not saying that FDA-approved products are automatically "safe," though), and they usually come with a drug monograph. I mean, weed isn't going to come with a list of possible side-effects, but Advil will. At least the potential user is equipped with some information to help make a decision.


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## EX1127 (Jan 15, 2010)

Lets see here I smoke a cigar occasionally 2 months usually between and I'll smoke a clove if im really cold. At the beginning of my college career I drank a good bit but rarely never when I had class the next day or homework I had to get done. Now I will drink 1 or 2 drinks maybe once or so a month. Barely eat fast food or drink carbonated beverages and only use energy drinks when driving. Never done any drug that is fully illegal. My favorite drugs are caffeine and endorphins. You try and take my coffee from me as long as I have to get up at the crack of dawn and we will fight:wink:. My favorite high has always been from running you go 5 =< miles and when the running high kicks in all problems just seem to melt away.


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

SweetSurrender said:


> Trying to understand how you would be on _ecstacy_.
> 
> What scientist do you know who ever leaves something "at that"- how boring and un-insightful!


I'm talking about my opinion, respect it and leave it at that, you're taking this "Scientist" thing too far.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

assbiscuits said:


> I'm talking about my opinion, respect it and leave it at that


No.

It's called agreeing to disagree. 

Try it.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

SweetSurrender said:


> Trying to understand how you would be on _ecstacy_.
> 
> What scientist do you know who ever leaves something "at that"- how boring and un-insightful!


Uninsightful? That's ridiculous. A person does _not _need to experience something firsthand in order to gain deep insight into it. 

Now by the standard that you've just set, I can claim deep insight into drug use and I must say that the _only_ motivation behind trying to get somebody to experience drug use that I've ever seen is self-justification. In fact, rejecting the experience seems to get a lot of users upset...to the point of calling the other close minded. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you can tell me your own motivations for pushing this at biscuts?


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

screamofconscious said:


> Uninsightful? That's ridiculous. A person does _not _need to experience something firsthand in order to gain deep insight into it.


/facepalm

I used a quote to make the statement that I have made judgments which have changed, whether they are good or bad changes in judgment is of less matter than the point being made that theory is quite different from experiment, and theories are theories because they have yet to be proven true or false through experiment.

Opinions can and do change. That's the beauty of having an opinion- it is not an irrefutable FACT, but an opinion. Am I to assume that because someone has the opinion that dogs are stupid based upon their experiences with dogs that I must respect it simply because it is their opinion? No, I have the same right as anyone to reserve my respect.

The point was that people can form opinions based upon their own experiences, upon the experiences of others which they have heard or witnessed, or upon a combination of both. *I made the statement that I, personally, learn the most from the combination of both.* I never said it was necessary, I said it was insightful. I feel it is most insightful, that being my opinion based upon MY experiences, not yours, not anyone else's. Your use of the word "deep" is of no relevance to me, being a perceptual word. Ideas are fascinating, especially those which have yet to be thoroughly explored; that exploration not necessarily having anything to do with actually using a drug. A person could read wikipedia or gather extensive data from user interviews or read unbiased medical journals. Why would anyone be content with only knowing so much, stopping there when there is still more to learn? A scientist would not. 

Those of you who do not possess a scientist's curiosity and eagerness to more thoroughly understand as I do will not understand me.

Again, this does not require USE of drug(s) but an open attitude regarding perception of specific drugs. Use will sometimes gain further insight, sometimes it will not.



> Now by the standard that you've just set, I can claim deep insight into drug use and I must say that the _only_ motivation behind trying to get somebody to experience drug use that I've ever seen is self-justification. In fact, rejecting the experience seems to get a lot of users upset...to the point of calling the other close minded. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you can tell me your own motivations for pushing this at biscuts?


Pushing what, exactly? I recall pushing for comments directed toward me which request or demand my respect to cease, no longer occur, not be repeated- surely you get my meaning?

I said that I was wondering what a particular person would be like on ecstasy, yet nowhere did I tell that person to go do ecstasy.

Have you yet understood that things people say to each other are not direct causation for another person's actions or lack of actions?

Nowhere did I state that I would respect anyone on the basis that they have or haven't tried drugs in general or a drug in particular or like them in general or dislike them in general or like or dislike specific drug(s) or will or will not use specific drug(s). I thoroughly loathe peer pressure. I did not try certain drugs because a doctor told me to or a friend suggested it or because someone told me I should. I have more respect for people in general than to imply that my opinions are powerful enough to be used as an excuse to try something instead of their* employment of a finely developed knowledge base of just what that person would be getting their self exposed to.* I'm sure that if you catch every post that I've made in this thread you will be able to derive that.

I'd appreciate that there be a distinction made here -I am reluctantly having to reiterate myself- but that distinction being that I have expressed my own opinion while demanding no respect from this person, yet this person is requesting (sounds more like demanding) respect from me. I clearly stated in an earlier post that from my perspective respect is not something demanded/expected but earned.

In case no one has conjectured this already, I am in no mood to give to nor to earn from AB any amount of respect because I have deemed AB as having made up their mind, therefor, that segment of the thread's conversation was over a long time ago. My respect is not of importance as it gives no one's opinion any degree of validation or invalidation. As I said, opinions are not irrefutable facts.

Reiterating yet again, I was making a point that all people have opinions which are quite capable of changing, as mine did, especially the opinions of young people who have yet to fully live out their lives during which they acquire more experiences and knowledge with which to more adequately judge anything. I was young and am still young as regards my experiences influencing my perceptions and knowledge of anything and everything.

I shared my perspective because that's what the thread asked for. I care more that AB won't stop fixating on some strange need to have me respect what they think/feel, which I don't believe is necessary and I do not feel obligated to give. I am a stranger on a forum having a discussion. Respect or lack thereof of my opinions from any of you makes my opinions no less valid to me, no less applicable to my life based upon the lessons I have learned from the choices I've made for myself. Hence, I need not expect, request nor demand anything from any of you... nor imply that I deserve it.

If this person is implying that I have shown disrespect, that is their perception not my intent. I am again being redundant here in saying that if I am requested or demanded to feel a certain way, I am not obligated to, just as none of you are.

There is inherently a problem here, being that this particular interaction between two of us is being brought back up to excess. It would be wise for those involved to stop fixating over it and to get the thread back on topic. Hence why I said, AGREE to DISAGREE. I do hope I've been thorough enough as to appease those eager to hear me painstakingly, although most needlessly, clarify my own meanings and intentions.


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

"Whatever you give a woman, she will make greater. Give her a house, she will give you a home. Give her groceries, she will give you a meal. Give her a smile, she will give you her heart. Give her love (wink), she will give you a baby. She always multiplies and enlarges what is given to her. So, _if you give her any crap_, be ready to receive a ton of shit!"

:laughing: like that signature


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

Human nature what it is told not do that is what it likes. The word DON'T is what triggers it, to want to try the forbidden.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

People can form opinions any way they like. You seem to go back and forth as how you think people should form opinions because first you say: 



SweetSurrender said:


> Talk all the shit you want AFTER you have actually tried something, because until then, all you have are anecdotes. You cannot look a person in the eye and tell them that you "understand" what they are going through, until you have that experience for yourself.


And then you say:



SweetSurrender said:


> /facepalm
> 
> The point was that people can form opinions based upon their own experiences, upon the experiences of others which they have heard or witnessed, or upon a combination of both. *I made the statement that I, personally, learn the most from the combination of both.* I never said it was necessary, I said it was insightful. I feel it is most insightful, that being my opinion based upon MY experiences, not yours, not anyone else's.





SweetSurrender said:


> Your use of the word "deep" is of no relevance to me, being a perceptual word.


Okay, so we should ignore perception because it's varies for different people. One could even say that your use of the word "insight" is irrelevant considering that people acquire it in different ways. 
Anything said by anybody is based on perception, there is no escaping that. So what's your point?



SweetSurrender said:


> Ideas are fascinating, especially those which have yet to be thoroughly explored; that exploration not necessarily having anything to do with actually using a drug. A person could read wikipedia or gather extensive data from user interviews or read unbiased medical journals. Why would anyone be content with only knowing so much, stopping there when there is still more to learn? A scientist would not.


A scientist does well to avoid extreme dangers that have already been noted in others. Since you've already mentioned Ecstacy, perhaps you're already aware that after only a few days of exposure, damage to neurotransmitter terminals can be evident years later. Certain cognitive functions and problems with memory are also an after-effect. There will always be more to learn. This does not mean any scientist should subject themself to lasting damage...especially one that impares their ability to think.




SweetSurrender said:


> Again, this does not require USE of drug(s) but an open attitude regarding perception of specific drugs. Use will sometimes gain further insight, sometimes it will not.


You don't need to reiterate your points...I'd just like to see some reconciliation between the opinion that a person doesn't understand something because they haven't experienced it firsthand to the opinion that people can gain insight in a variety of different ways including second-hand accounts.



SweetSurrender said:


> Pushing what, exactly? I recall pushing for comments directed toward me which request or demand my respect to cease, no longer occur, not be repeated- surely you get my meaning?
> 
> I said that I was wondering what a particular person would be like on ecstasy, yet nowhere did I tell that person to go do ecstasy.


I recall you implying that the conversation doesn't have anything to do with respect. 
I also recall you telling her you'd like to see her on Ecstasy. You didn't outright tell her to go do it...you just told her that she doesn't understand unless she's tried it and wondered what she'd be like on it. And your point of it once being called Empathy? I'm I incorrect to assume that you were implying that she might gain some from experimentation? 





SweetSurrender said:


> Have you yet understood that things people say to each other are not direct causation for another person's actions or lack of actions?


Now you seem to misunderstand what I've said. The things people say to each other are directly caused by their perceptions of themself. 



SweetSurrender said:


> Nowhere did I state that I would respect anyone on the basis that they have or haven't tried drugs in general or a drug in particular or like them in general or dislike them in general or like or dislike specific drug(s) or will or will not use specific drug(s). I thoroughly loathe peer pressure. I did not try certain drugs because a doctor told me to or a friend suggested it or because someone told me I should. I have more respect for people in general than to imply that my opinions are powerful enough to be used as an excuse to try something instead of their* employment of a finely developed knowledge base of just what that person would be getting their self exposed to.* I'm sure that if you catch every post that I've made in this thread you will be able to derive that.


I have derived this point, however some of what you've said appears to conflict.



SweetSurrender said:


> I'd appreciate that there be a distinction made here -I am reluctantly having to reiterate myself- but that distinction being that I have expressed my own opinion while demanding no respect from this person, yet this person is requesting (sounds more like demanding) respect from me. I clearly stated in an earlier post that from my perspective respect is not something demanded/expected but earned.


I'd appreciate a distinction in the fact that you have focused on biscuts demand for respect and up until this point, I've not even mentioned it. Perhaps my reference to peer pressure has lead you to believe that I have some problem with your level of respect for her. I assure you that thus far, I've not taken issue with the fact that you disagree with her. I only question why you chose to debate her opinions on this matter.




SweetSurrender said:


> In case no one has conjectured this already, I am in no mood to give to nor to earn from AB any amount of respect because I have deemed AB as having made up their mind, therefor, that segment of the thread's conversation was over a long time ago. My respect is not of importance as it gives no one's opinion any degree of validation or invalidation. As I said, opinions are not irrefutable facts.
> 
> Reiterating yet again, I was making a point that all people have opinions which are quite capable of changing, as mine did, especially the opinions of young people who have yet to fully live out their lives during which they acquire more experiences and knowledge with which to more adequately judge anything. I was young and am still young as regards my experiences influencing my perceptions and knowledge of anything and everything.
> 
> ...


You seem to be rather upset over the whole idea of respect...why have you taken so much time to explain your stance on it? (that's rhetorical, I really don't care to continue down this avenue) I agree that it would be wise to stop fixating over it.


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

SweetSurrender said:


> No.
> 
> It's called agreeing to disagree.
> 
> Try it.


 
What I was saying was, you were suggesting for me, a sixteen-year-old innocent little girly to take dangerous drugs so I can understand other's viewpoints but you weren't understanding mine. 

This isn't about agreeing to disagree,this is a personal choice, that you won't respect because your's different, it isn't a debate when it comes to personal choices.


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## Conjugated (Jan 7, 2010)

assbiscuits said:


> What I was saying was, you were suggesting for me, a sixteen-year-old innocent little girly to take dangerous drugs so I can understand other's viewpoints but you weren't understanding mine.
> 
> This isn't about agreeing to disagree,this is a personal choice, that you won't respect because your's different, it isn't a debate when it comes to personal choices.



When you post your POV, it _is_ about agreeing and disagreeing. She didn't suggest that you take illegal substances. I believe she suggested that your POV is born from a certain ignorance that can only be lifted by the first hand use of certain illegal substances. I'm pretty sure that's why she disagrees with your POV and does not respect it. However, it is like you said your personal choice not to explore certain drugs and no one is going to criticise you for it. But the fact is you're stating your POV in a topic that is always up for debate, and people opposing your stance will criticise it.

You ponder why people do drugs, you conclude it is to fit in, but if you had experienced them first hand you would know otherwise.


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## napoleon227 (Jan 17, 2010)

SilverScorpio17 said:


> So why do NTs use drugs, even with the knowledge that it's hurting their body?


What do mean by drugs? Does that definition include marijuana? Caffeine? Refined sugar? Alcohol?

Many substances can hurt your body in excessive amounts. Smoking a little pot and drinking a few glasses of red wine generally won't hurt your body (not more than many other things, like say, playing certain sports).

Other common drugs like Oxycontin can seriously fuck you up (never mind hard stuff like meth and heroin which I think is obvious). But so can alcohol and even refined sugar in sufficient quantities (of course the two substances are related).

I'm not sure which substances you are talking about.


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

Pathetic hell. How can you judge someone on drugs when you have not taken them? HOW CAN YOU JUDGE SOMEONE'S PAIN when you don't understand their pain?This thread reminds of a woman who told one of my friend to stop smoking. My friend was very angry at this because the person was being judgemental. Went on further to explain smoking is bad all that e.t.c. But one thing you must judgemental people is that. These people they don't want to do drugs, they want to be out of that life. They want someone who can understand their pain, to help them through their addiction. Help them to stop not to judge.

LEARN TO UNDER PEOPLE'S PAIN, WHEN YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO DECIPHER IT.

I have taken drugs before I only I have the right to say in this thread about people stoping drugs.


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

idontsmokedareefa said:


> Dying with the same life experience as others is pathetic to you? You're either an arrogant bastard or I misinterpreted what you were saying.


Yea it is pathetic to me. Why would i want to die of something i can defeat. I would rather die of something that i can not defeat. Thats how i think, its not being arrogant. I want a life with a different experiences.


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## dude10000 (Jan 24, 2010)

duplicate post....


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## dude10000 (Jan 24, 2010)

> How can you judge someone on drugs when you have not taken them?


Observation combined with induction.

For example, I've never pressed my hand against a hot frying pan. But I would prevent a small child from doing so, and for good reason.

Drugs merely alter psychological states-- they have no _tangible_ benefits. Beer or wine at least have a rich taste and complement meals well. However, drinking beer or wine in isolation with regularity strikes me as pathological, so the same follows for other drugs. 

Too many people place verbal labels on activities that only have the status of habit and behavior. Whether a habit is virtuous or vicious depends on who we are and what we're trying to accomplish.


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## Versatile Leader (Nov 4, 2009)

If you were a smoker before and overcame that life. Then you have the right to say because you know the life, the struggles and how to remove that person from that life.

But if you have never taken the drugs you don't know how take that person out of that life because you have never experienced that life, its struggles, how to fight the addiction. The only thing you can say is "smoking is bad" but do you know the answer how to do defeat that life? The answer is no. 

People need *the answer* not judgement:happy:


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## wealldie (Jan 24, 2010)

Versatile Leader said:


> If you were a smoker before and overcame that life. Then you have the right to say because you know the life, the struggles and how to remove that person from that life.
> 
> But if you have never taken the drugs you don't know how take that person out of that life because you have never experienced that life, its struggles, how to fight the addiction. The only thing you can say is "smoking is bad" but do you know the answer how to do defeat that life? The answer is no.
> 
> People need *the answer* not judgement:happy:


I think it would be difficult to generalize "knowing" regarding others' struggles because you have also struggled similarly. I would be suspicious of anyone who says they "know" what I was going through regarding almost anything, especially if they purport to have the answer to my problems. Your testimony of overcoming wouldn't really be enough data to suggest that what you did is what I would be able to do.

I also don't believe it's fair to externalize "pathetic" onto someone else, once again, in a highly generalized way because you feel you have perfected the answer -- unless and until you have a full range of data regarding the particular issue. Unless it's just to make a snap judgment that isn't useful to anyone.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Recreational drugs and practical drugs.


Very true. I have used recreational drugs out of ntp boredom, and practical ones because I wanted to keep my body and mind stimulated enough to do the things that I needed to do.. all night. :laughing:


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## Refu (Mar 5, 2010)

xackery said:


> I still think drugs are illegal forao reason


Why Pot is Illegal Racism and profits are a reason I guess.

I'd also like to add that decriminalization in Portugal has caused the HIV-infection rates to collapse, halved the number of hard drug users and doubled the amount of people getting into treatment. Prohibition doesn't work.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Not only does prohibition not work, it's morally unjust to the greatest degree.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)




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## Refu (Mar 5, 2010)

While we're posting videos:






LEAP is a wonderful organization and should get much more publicity.


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## zorro (Apr 9, 2010)

The most dissapointing and harmful assumption made about drugs is:

drugs = danger

this is simply not true, in the same way that it is also assumed:

weapons = danger

in both of these situations we are talking about inanimate objects that without any human interaction could not possibly pose any kind of threat to anything. therefore i conclude the true statements to be:

drugs + people = danger

weapons + people = danger

now danger does not imply something bad will happen, it just implies there is a risk of something bad happening if the correct precautions are not taken therefore:

danger = risk

and as pointed out above that risk can be massively reduced by understanding the necesarry precautions and that knowledge can only be imparted through unbiased education and experience. so if you want to reduce the risk of drugs having ill effects on society:

drugs + people + knowledge = reduced risk

where as the sytem we have nowadays pretends it has removed drugs from the equation, when in effect it has just made them invisible, and instead of providing knowledge we provide scare tactics and biased unfounded opinion we then are left with:

drugs + people + confusion = chaos + increased risk

thats my best attempt at objective reasoning. I dont know why we pour so much time and effort into trying to make drugs dissappear when chemicals that produce effects in your body have been around as long as we have had bodies. its clear theyre here to stay, instead lets learn to live with them.

and as long as people blame drugs for problems in society they refuse to acknowledge their own part in societies problems.


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## zorro (Apr 9, 2010)

id just like to say i think i may have over exagerrated in the post above.



> thats my best attempt at objective reasoning


but i tried to be objective and i tried to reason. a bit.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

It is, of course, incredibly true. [your post]


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## dude10000 (Jan 24, 2010)

> I understand wanting a new perspective on life, but I really believed that NTs would be least likely to be drug users because they value their mind and understand the consequences.


I understand where you're coming from. We're not going to prove there are infinitely many Mersenne primes, or deliver the evidence demonstrating the existence of the Higgs boson, by getting high. 

I tend to avoid drugs in general, including caffeine, aspirin, and common cold meds-- I don't like to feel jittery or numbed. Alcohol is an exception, though that is usually an ensemble deal-- a glass of wine or a bottle of beer to complement a delicious meal. My college days were a different story, though I look back on that like, WTF? For me it was the peer pressure, not wanting to look nerdy or like a pussy. Now I'm more honest with myself and admit that I don't like being confused, and losing control and acting like a jackass is humiliating. Drowning yourself in an abyss of subjectivity is lame, creating new sensory stimulation by altering brain-states is just boring, and the pain always outweighs the pleasure. Should have stuck to my guns before.

So if you want to abuse drugs, whatever floats your boat. But if you don't, you're not missing anything.


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## Verrsili (Jun 13, 2010)

What longs term effects of marijuana on the brain?
What long term effects of salvia on the brain?
What long term effects of shrooms on the brain?
What long term effects of LSD on the brain? (Ok, i might have to concede that one:laughing

Why do you assume all drugs have a negative long term effect on the brain? I don't use drugs every day, just maybe on the weekends (pretty much only pot), and there has been no long term effects on my brain.

Ahhh INTJ's and their unsupported claims again...:frustrating:
Looks like INTP's win again :crazy:
(jk about the last part I just couldn't resist)


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## NiDBiLD (Apr 1, 2010)

Verrsili said:


> Looks like INTP's win again :crazy:


Like that's gonna happen. Lay off the pot, man. You're delusional


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## Verrsili (Jun 13, 2010)

NiDBiLD said:


> Like that's gonna happen. Lay off the pot, man. You're delusional


I was joking. I said it because I had just read the thread http://personalitycafe.com/member-polls/32851-one-smarter-intj-intp.html


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

This thread is like a year old...


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## NiDBiLD (Apr 1, 2010)

Verrsili said:


> I was joking. I said it because I had just read the thread http://personalitycafe.com/member-polls/32851-one-smarter-intj-intp.html


I was also joking. I thought it was fun to tell you to lay off the pot right after I had argued that drugs are great.


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## Verrsili (Jun 13, 2010)

NiDBiLD said:


> I was also joking. I thought it was fun to tell you to lay off the pot right after I had argued that drugs are great.


Ahhh good one, that is my fault because I hadn't read the entire thread. :crazy:


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## gaudy316 (Nov 19, 2010)

SilverScorpio17 said:


> I've heard a lot of NTs wanting to try certain drugs for "new experiences." I understand wanting a new perspective on life, but I really believed that NTs would be least likely to be drug users because they value their mind and understand the consequences.
> 
> So why do NTs use drugs, even with the knowledge that it's hurting their body?


I know several NTJs in particular - male and female - and they smoke cigarettes and drink. It's more of 'now stress-relief' than thinking of it's hurting their body. I think that stress comes from them working really hard - they put in extra hours. My dad, ENTJ, probably works 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week (working half-day on Sundays). 

My INTJ friends have been smoking since mid-teens. I have a feeling it's because they are non-conformists. I don't know, I never asked why they smoked. They don't smoke weed or do any other illegal drugs. I'm guessing it's because they don't have time, but I know for certain they wouldn't do drugs just because they're illegal. Trust me, as one of the earlier posts said about THE MAN'S PROPAGANDA they'll do anything to be a non-conformist, if they had time. 

My female ENTJ friend drinks every weekend socially. She's against cigarettes and illegal drugs. She never 'approved' her friends doing those either.


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## raymond (Mar 11, 2011)

NiDBiLD said:


> This is an interesting topic indeed, and something I will gladly debate with anyone who is of another mind.


Not going to quote the whole thing as its a bit long, but this post nearly brought a tear to my eye.


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## alext341 (Mar 1, 2011)

I don't really see how anyone who takes harmful drugs can be considered a strong NT. I'd say NF's and SF's would be more likely to use them.


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## peddroelm (Feb 23, 2011)




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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Aßbiscuits said:


> This thread is like a year old...


Yeah, it's amazing how after a year or two these concepts we're discussing are completely outdated and should be uninteresting for others to discuss...


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

redmanINTP said:


> Yeah, it's amazing how after a year or two these concepts we're discussing are completely outdated and should be uninteresting for others to discuss...


FFS, this stupid thread kept coming up in my subscribed threads as of late and when I unsubscribe you quote me in it?

Was it really necessary to bring me back just to say this? No. So shut your hole unless you have something valuable to say. It's my personal opinion that this is yet another topic that's been discussed too much in relation to type to have it specially dug up again and we get the point _everyone_ likes drugs. Yeah, every single type with the occasional "drugs are bad mkay?" so there's nothing more to say. It's my opinion that this is a waste of time, is that hard to understand? 

(really, don't reply to this message if you're going to be a "smartass" again, I'm sure we'll all do fine without your wit this time around).


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Aßbiscuits said:


> FFS, this stupid thread kept coming up in my subscribed threads lately and when I unsubscribe you quote me in it?
> 
> Was it really necessary to bring me back just to say this? No. So shut your hole unless you have something valuable to say. It's my personal opinion that this is yet another topic that's been discussed too much in relation to type to have it specially dug up again and we get the point _everyone_ likes drugs. Yeah, every single type with the occasional "drugs are bad mkay?" so there's nothing more to say. It's my opinion that this is a waste of time, is that hard to understand?
> 
> (really, don't reply to this message if you're going to be a "smartass" again, I'm sure we can all live without your wit this time around).


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

redmanINTP said:


>


You're the one whining dippy. I simply explained why this thread was useless, obviously you think it's extremely important.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Aßbiscuits said:


> You're the one whining dippy. I simply explained why this thread was useless, obviously you think it's extremely important.


Actually I was ridiculing. Don't worry, sweetie, you'll get the distinction figured out in time.


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

redmanINTP said:


> Actually I was ridiculing. Don't worry, sweetie, you'll get the distinction figured out in time.


Oh, now I understand! You were ridiculing me because you think it's necessary for me understand how amazingly valuable this thread is and I obviously didn't see it. Oh my God. What came over me? You're obviously extremely intelligent and you're absolutely hilarious. My God, I bet everyone who read your post was in stitches laughing (which is why they probably didn't thank you, they had to get stitches because of you!). You really are just the wittiest person on this forum, in fact in existence, in fact, I think I might even be in love with you. My God. Thank you so much, actually, I can't even thank you enough. You complete me and every person you encounter in your wonderful life.

Alright? Okay? See you.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Aßbiscuits said:


> Oh, now I understand! You were ridiculing me because you think it's necessary to for me understand how amazingly valuable this thread is and I obviously didn't see it. Oh my God. What came over me? You're obviously extremely intelligent and you're absolutely hilarious. My God, I bet everyone who read your post was in stitches laughing (which is why they probably didn't thank you, they had to get stitches because of you!). You really are just the wittiest person on this forum, in fact in existence, in fact, I think I might even be in love with you. My God. Thank you so much, actually, I can't even thank you enough. You complete me and every person you encounter in your wonderful life.
> 
> Alright? Okay? See you.



So how's all this time and energy spent on a thread you don't want to have to deal with working out for you?


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## Aßbiscuits (Oct 8, 2009)

redmanINTP said:


> So how's all this time and energy spent on a thread you don't want to have to deal with working out for you?


You're so amazing you spiced it up for me, you know, since we're discussing NTs and drugs and all.


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

lol seriously, both you goin on and on? biscuits, you couldve easily just left after tellin him you were wanting to unsuscribe and didnt see a point in this thread anymore. 

redman, you seriously goin this much out of way to aggrivate and go after somebody when there is no real point or message to it.


to get this train back on the rails of the original thread, i just so happen to love drugs




ps agree with biscuits that this thread probably is overdone, but when you get new ppl in the forum such as what happens over a year or two which is how long this thread died once or twice, they tend to seek out different debates and topics to establish themselves and their views with the cafe. popular topics such as religion, politics, and drugs do seem to way overdone though, with all of em turning into the same discussions.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Drugs I stay away from.
Alcohol I moderate strongly.
Cigarettes I have never used and never will.

If I want a high I do meditation.
Nothing beats the experiences you can generate in your own mind for free. =D


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

I'm an NT. Drugs are boring - if I have something better to do. And y'all like to fight on this thread.

I value my brain - my never ever drugs are cocaine, meth, and ecstasy because they cause neuron death. (yes, ecstasy was shown to cause neuron death similar to meth - it IS methyline-diamine-*methamphetamine* after all). Why? Because they directly cause brain damage. Also heroin because I don't mess with things that could permanently reduce my capacity to experience a full life.

I'm 24. Until may 18th of last year, I had never smoked pot. Until I was 22, I never wanted to drink. 

I've always wanted to try psychedelics, and they are the only drugs that have ever caught my curiousity. Luckily they are also the only drug class to not directly cause nerve death. They(especially mushrooms) definitely may cause permanent structural changes.

Pot is interesting. It does have side effects. I have had a few very good experiences and many mediocre ones. I had a "peak experience" the second time I smoked pot. It felt like a religious experience (which I loved because I'm an atheist, but I still want that religious high). 

The reason I finally drank was because of social pressure and a desire to know what all the fuss was about. The reason I finally smoked pot was that I lost a third relationship where me not smoking was a significant factor in the breakup. I also wanted to see what all the fuss is about.

Before I drank and before I smoked pot, I could not imagine what it would be like. I still don't know if I can describe how it feels so that someone else will understand it. I just imagined that I would black out and come to later. Finding out what really happens was a definite motivator for me. Experiencing serious changes in my sensory input actually made the world seem more real to me.


@Saboteur: And yes - I believe that caffeine and nicotine are both similarly addictive. I was a 7-15 average cup of coffee per day user. I would take 1000mg orally recreationally. It's a mood elevator, just like nicotine. I now drink drip coffee less than once a month. It took me about 3 months to kick the habit. I do drink tea frequently now, and espresso on occasion.
I have also used tobacco in several forms (e-cigs, pipe, snuff, snus, hookah). I like the way it feels. It's very relaxing, anxiety relieving, and I feel very at peace - like the way people describe pot making them feel. It was easier for me to stop using tobacco products regularly than to quit caffeine.


My final opinion is that life itself is WAY WAY more fun and entertaining than drugs, but you have to go out and live it. The US lifestyle is basically the most boring lifestyle ever: Go to school indoors, under fluorescent lights 5 days a week for 13-20 years, then work indoors 5 days a week for 40-47 years, wind up tired and spent each and every day. No wonder people are bored and seek other pathways.

The potentially less boring lifestyle is the only reason I ever think about dropping out of college.


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## MadeInChina (Jun 18, 2011)

Dropping acid was one of the most spiritual, self-developing, progressive and eye-opening experiences I've ever had.

Psychedelics are less "recreational" than other drugs and are more like a teacher, like the other guys said!


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## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Although I haven't tried them, I wouldn't put Psychedelics into the same class as the synthesized chemical cocktails we call drugs.
Hopefully, I'll be able to try some soon.


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## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Although I haven't tried them, I wouldn't put Psychedelics into the same class as the synthesized chemical cocktails we call drugs.
Hopefully, I'll be able to try some soon.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Whoa there. I know it sounds like something naturally occurring is a lot better than something that's not, but don't fool yourself into thinking psychedelics are not drugs or are totally harmless. They don't cause nerve death directly, but they can cause a lot of other things to happen. Most of the synthesized compounds are naturally derived and purified. You can smoke DMT or you can drink ayahuasca.... DMT is just the isolated, concentrated most active ingredient of ayahuasca. There may be others in the rest of the mix (like datura noxia MMM! AKA jimson/loco weed and AKA permanent psychosis)

Erowid

Know what you're getting yourself into. Or at least know that you don't know.


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## LadyAqua (Jun 18, 2011)

I've never tried drugs either. I only drink in moderation. And when I do, I'm likely to put together some hollistic cure to flush out my system so I can regenerate faster the next day. ^^;


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Correction: MDMA/X/E/Molly is Methyline-dioxy-methamphetamine. That's dioxy, not diamine in the middle.


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## shadowofambivalence (May 11, 2011)

I usually stick to the hallucinogens and downers, but I practice responsible drug use so i haven't had any brain damage or gotten myself into trouble for being under the influence of drugs, most of the time i do them alone when i have a day off from work and on occasions with a few people i trust. I usally end up reading about them more than actually doing them. Its also more about exploring the mind and also testing my mental strength when i do them.


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## ficsci (May 4, 2011)

Some NTs are just reckless and stubborn, would smoke when they're stressed, would pop sleeping pills when they're probably anxious but don't want to feel lit

(;___


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## Istbkleta (Apr 30, 2011)

ficsci said:


> Some NTs are just reckless and stubborn, would smoke when they're stressed, would pop sleeping pills when they're probably anxious but don't want to feel lit
> 
> (;___


That's because we are the ubermensch. We will not submit to our weak bodies or irrational emotions but rather destroy them in our fight against their oppression.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

I don't have any interest in drug use, but I guess taking prescription drugs for your entire life sort of takes the glamour out of the stuff. It sort of surprises me that so many people, NTs in particular, would be interested in recreational drugs, but at the same time I guess it's to be expected for young people of any type in today's society.


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