# Literati?



## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

Good evening!

I have a good friend at my place of work (whom I believe may be having a mental break down), but at any rate he and I have this shared joke between us where we discuss the ideas that pertain to the "Literati" vs. the values of the "Illiterati". 

Perhaps you see what I'm driving at. Do you consider yourselves intellectual snobs, too? It's not like he and I are walking up to our co-workers and saying crap like "Hey you're really dumb, you know?!" But we definitely found in each other kindred spirits, to the point that one day last year he remarked to me, "I love talking to you so much. When I need a dose of intellectual stimulation I know I can always come to you. If I go next door all I'm going to hear about is what they're going to have for dinner, who they're shagging (or not) and why the Bears are going to lose on Sunday. It's great to have another member of the Literati to talk with." 

A friendship was born and now I want to know if any of you consider yourselves as being part of the literati too, and I also would like to know if you struggle with the other group's preferences for shallow conversation. :laughing:

Thanks!


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## Filo (Aug 11, 2010)

Hmmm... But where does one put the threshold? There are definitely some ignorant bumpkins out there. As an example, I had to go to the public transportation store today to renew a subscription. For this, he needed my address. Well, I live in a neighborhood that is basically a ghetto. He responded by commenting about how it must be nasty to live with a certain ethical minority (well, they are not a minority where I live, but you get the point). So, I want to just get a damn tram card, and I get that... How ignorant and dumb must you be to even have these views, let alone to spew them while representing your company?

So yeah, I'd look at such a guy as an illiterati, I can't help it. But then again, he probably also looks at some people as illiterati. Funnily enough the vast majority of people consider themselves intelligent (or good drivers). Maybe the literati are our intellectual peers?

What I find more interesting: are there also people that are so intelligent they irritate you? I know that being too "intelligent" can irritate others. Have you experienced this as well?

For the record, I do consider myself a "literati in training" at best. I put my bar at multiple PhDs and the ability to speak at least 6 languages, plus enough real-world smarts to convert it to cash. And no, I fail that standard at the moment.


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

That guy was definitely one of the "Illiterati". :crazy:

As to experiencing people who are too smart, I have a confession to make:

I'm usually the person irritating people... My God that's sad to understand and admit. In addition, when I run into someone whom I perceive is more intelligent than I am, I usually become infatuated with them for a time. Extreme levels of intelligence and the ability to mentally spar with me are enormous draws for me.

As to your goals: 
6 languages: I'm at 3 (literate in one more, but I won't count that)
Multiple PhD's: What is the next one you want? I wouldn't mind a PhD in linguistics, sociology or cognitive neuroscience outside of the DMA I currently want for my career
Smarts... Yeah, I've got those in spades :tongue: So do you!

It's going to be so fun pursuing those goals!


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## Filo (Aug 11, 2010)

> What is the next one you want?


Either literature, art, law, or psychology. Maybe all four.


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

Awesomeness, sheer awesomeness!


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

Is this a private thread? :tongue:

Yes, I consider myself part of the Literati, though not a member in good standing. I am always humbled to meet individuals with more intelligence. I do not, however, equate intelligence to education (or vice versa, to be honest). I prefer discussion with depth and meaning, conversations that require I consider a response instead of just spouting something superficial. I, too, am attracted to individuals who can match me in a conversation. If the person can teach me something, so much the better.


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

ChanceyRose said:


> Is this a private thread? :tongue:
> 
> Yes, I consider myself part of the Literati, though not a member in good standing. I am always humbled to meet individuals with more intelligence. I do not, however, equate intelligence to education (or vice versa, to be honest). I prefer discussion with depth and meaning, conversations that require I consider a response instead of just spouting something superficial. I, too, am attracted to individuals who can match me in a conversation. If the person can teach me something, so much the better.


You bring up a wonderful point about education not necessarily being synonymous with intelligence. I'll admit that it's easier for me to find people of the same or greater intelligence than I have in the circles of those with one or more PhD's, it's certainly not impossible for me to run into them elsewhere.

Now for another facet of this question:

Do you believe/discover that the people you wind up calling "intelligent" manifest as intelligent because they are or because you find yourself completely in agreement with them the majority of the time?

My example of this would be that I am acquainted with a very healthy ESFP who is a flat out genius. He is widely regarded as such for his skills as a musician alone, but the depth and breadth of his mental acuity is really astounding as is the subtelty of his mind. Reading what he writes, conversing with him, and listening to him speak are all things I don't often pass up the chance for... But we are intellectual adversaries in very nearly all of our conversations! He and I hold such differing view of the world that when we lock horns with each other in public we basically wind up throwing everyone else out of the conversation, the gloves come off, and the match is on. (Come to think of it, that I know of, I don't think any of our verbal swordplay has ever ended in anything except a draw!) I respect, admire, and I profit from the genius of this man, but it has no attachment to his level of agreement with me on any single intellectual debate. I've also just realized that there are a number of people in my life with whose ideas I find myself in much agreement, but I can and do have little admiration for their overall "intelligence". Maybe I should ask what your definition of intelligence is... Maybe I should explore mine as well. :/

Thoughts?


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

Anahata said:


> You bring up a wonderful point about education not necessarily being synonymous with intelligence. I'll admit that it's easier for me to find people of the same or greater intelligence than I have in the circles of those with one or more PhD's, it's certainly not impossible for me to run into them elsewhere.


Yes, it's easier to find intellectual equals among the more educated. My favorite discussion partner, though, is a man who had very little formal education for much of his life. He is very observant of human behavior, reads constantly, and makes connections and at an astounding rate and depth. He humbles me.



Anahata said:


> Do you believe/discover that the people you wind up calling "intelligent" manifest as intelligent because they are or because you find yourself completely in agreement with them the majority of the time?


I find intelligence more likely in people who are able to disagree with me without yelling at me. Simply echoing what I say is annoying and doesn't help me grow or learn. I also find intelligence in people who are willing to educate me on why they hold a certain view.


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## st0831 (Jul 13, 2010)

You know this thread parallels with the ideals of the illuminati and the common folk.

Unfortunately, I like it!

Edit:Oh, I also have to add... all of you previous posters are all Judgers. Notice there are not one perceiver.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

st0831 said:


> You know this thread parallels with the ideals of the illuminati and the common folk.
> 
> Unfortunately, I like it!
> 
> Edit:Oh, I also have to add... all of you previous posters are all Judgers. Notice there are not one perceiver.


Except for you and you said you liked the idea. So, why haven't any other perceivers taken the bait?


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## Filo (Aug 11, 2010)

> Edit:Oh, I also have to add... all of you previous posters are all Judgers. Notice there are not one perceiver.


How perceptive. You must be a perceiver.


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## ChaoticHeartLD (Jan 11, 2010)

Filo said:


> How perceptive. You must be a perceiver.


How judgmental. You just be a judger.

I am sure I can safely say that most ENTPs do the same thing. It is kind of a pre-requisite with us that we view ourselves as superior to the "common masses". Our criteria for this is probably a bit different than most, though.

In truth, I tend to believe every human does this. I have seen individuals, so low on the intellectual scale that they had to use a step ladder to even see it, comment on "how stupid" another individual was... usually speaking about their brother as he does something they dared him to do in the first place. {Wow... what does that say about the type of company I keep?}

I agree with the above poster that we tend to see the "literati" as anyone of equal or greater intelligence than ourselves. The baseline is ourselves.


I will say that my interpretation of what does or does not qualify as intelligence tends to be different than others. I could care less if you can quote the entire body of work of Sir Isaac Newton; alchemical/metaphysical portions included; or not. Repeating something to me that you memorized from a book does not indicate intelligence. In fact, it indicates a total lack there-of, due to your inability to create your own ideas and theories. People who hold a conversation and have to constantly fall back on "and (insert notable intellectual from the past) had this to say on the subject" only do so because they have nothing to add of their own to the conversation. They are, essentially, the human equivalent of Wikipedia. Useful, but not truly intelligent.

Those who intellectually stimulate me are the ones who bring to light new ways of looking at something... ways I have not, myself, already thought of. It matters not what their educational background is. I suppose it is an ENTP trait to value original thought over regurgitating previous thinkers.

Just my "perceiver" perspective, for what it may be worth.


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

ChaoticHeartLD said:


> How judgmental. You just be a judger.


Ah, play nicely, now, I'm an idealist. :blushed:



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> In truth, I tend to believe every human does this.


Careful. I'm not sure. I live in a largely SJ family and they don't rate others' intelligence... They rate their worth as humans, and often feel that others are looking down on _their_ intelligence, even when those people are most certainly NOT. They have low senses of self-esteem in the intelligence category, and no matter how often I repeat myself, or assure them that I don't (usually) look down my long hooked nose at them regarding their intelligence, they will often feel an unspoken pressure by me to be more "intelligent"... Worse yet, they'll sometimes feel as though I don't think they have value in my eyes. They are very very fragile, and never in the course of my life can I remember any of the SJ's in my family saying (at least in my hearing) "That person is REALLY dumb!" I've never heard one of them make a judgment about intelligence. But please don't get me started on the whole, "I'm better than they are because my underwear is clean." attitude they all walk around with!!!



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> {Wow... what does that say about the type of company I keep?}


Nothing, really. Do you choose to keep company with them, or is this something largely out of your power to control or change?



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> I agree with the above poster that we tend to see the "literati" as anyone of equal or greater intelligence than ourselves. The baseline is ourselves.


I agree, though I have a few paragons in my life that I like to use as a baseline (cough, cough FILO cough, cough)



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> Repeating something to me that you memorized from a book does not indicate intelligence. In fact, it indicates a total lack there-of, due to your inability to create your own ideas and theories.


Careful here, too. If they memorized it, understand it, and have internalized it, then it can be intelligence. The person might simply not have things to say beyond what they have read and understood, or may be incapable of giving voice to their thoughts. As an ENTP you are more gifted in verbal exchanges than two of the other NT types, who (though they love to spar intellectually) find themselves backing up some in verbal exchanges because their writing is the place that they can excel.



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> People who hold a conversation and have to constantly fall back on "and (insert notable intellectual from the past) had this to say on the subject" only do so because they have nothing to add of their own to the conversation.


Again, you don't really know this and now _you're_ being very judgmental. I admit to having met people who never seem to give their own opinions voice, but that's usually because-- I have found-- they don't give their own opinions the credence of an expert's.



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> Those who intellectually stimulate me are the ones who bring to light new ways of looking at something. It matters not what their educational background is. I suppose it is an ENTP trait to value original thought over regurgitating previous thinkers.


I value this, too. I think that people who can give me fresh perspectives are very valuable, but perhaps that is because they are SO novel for me to run into.



ChaoticHeartLD said:


> Just my "perceiver" perspective, for what it may be worth.


Why did you have to do that? Like everyone who has been posting here would be interested in belittling you? That's a shame. I really enjoyed your post (if you couldn't already tell). Be careful of being slighted by everything people say on a public forum because not everyone can or does intend out and out insult.


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## ChaoticHeartLD (Jan 11, 2010)

It is true that different humans "judge" based on differing criteria. A top athlete likely ranks those around him by their physical prowess, while a model may do it by their looks. I suppose this is their own version of "Literati/illiterati". Even so, I would hazard a guess that even the most physically-absorbed individual is still capable of ordering people based upon their perceived intelligence. I could be wrong, and simply impressing my own personal bias upon others, but even an intellectual midget can not find the company of one who is an intellectual flea all that stimulating.

Of course, we seek out differing people for differing reasons. Those afore-mentioned brothers, for example. I could not expect to hold a conversation any deeper than "which alcohol gets you hammered the fastest" with them, but they certainly have their value as company. Mainly in the aspect of excitement, danger, and pure, visceral activity. Thinking is not everything; doing is equally important.

When I self-analyze, it is obvious I rank people around me; having no interest in those I "deem too low on the scale". It is not by pure intellect that I do this, though. That is probably an ENTP aspect playing out. A person who is light upon true intelligence, but at least is open and questioning ranks higher to me than someone else who may be intelligent, but is dead-locked in a single line of thought. Resilience, passion, and an unbending commitment to ones own morality (not societies... I am an ENTP, after all.) are also deciding factors. Hmm... it merits thought. I may need to do a bit of inward thought, and try to figure out just what goes into my ranking of individuals.

As to my final comment, I think you may have taken it a bit out of context. Understandable, as coming from anyone other than an ENTP you would probably have been correct. We do not typically fear being "belittled" or "attacked". In truth, if someone aggressively came at me for my opinions, I would be excited, interested, and a bit eager to join in the mental sparring match. Hurt would not even be an option. We like our ideas and opinions to be challenged, and have no qualms with someone "holding nothing back". We never hold back.

My "Just my "perceiver" perspective, for what it may be worth." closing was mainly a form of applying self-humility. ENTPs are arrogant, and we know it. We think the world of ourselves and our abilities. If left unchecked, who knows where our ego would take us. When we make comments like the above, consider it like the old story about Marcus Aurelius Antoninus and the servant hired to constantly whisper into his ear "You are just a man".


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## Anahata (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi ChaoticHeart. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your responses. I have also had enough time to try to process, now, what my thoughts are on this subject in terms of the criteria I use in my life to rank people.

I tend to find people who have a high level of education and who _*wish to share that world with me*_ stimulating. They have to be sharers, though. 

I enjoy conversations with people who are semi-warm in their approach to me. This is going to sound horrendously narcissistic, but I suppose I'm saying that I am more engaged if I sense that they enjoy conversing with me. The exchange can be painful for me if I sense that the other person is explaining something that may be fascinating to me, but they are finding it a chore to converse with me.

People who are rigid in their thinking give me headaches. I can't "discuss" things with them because there is no discussion required. They want people to either agree with them or shut up. In other words, I'm not at all fond of polemics. I enjoy really discussing ideas with people, and those who come to the table completely unwilling to change their mind find that I shut down pretty quickly in the face of their obduracy.

I believe that intelligence is synonymous with patience and kindness. I think that you can have a ruthless intellect and still be possessed of a good enough spirit not to feel compelled to senselessly mow down humanity at large with your scythe. In fact, a prejudice of mine is that I tend to believe that most unkind people are _un_intelligent, but that is because I believe that it takes a different level of intelligence to even see that the effort of being kind to others requires an intelligence beyond what you aptly term "mere book learning". 

I also believe that intelligent people know when not to speak, but I've realized that I'm speaking of intelligence of something different, and it has only just dawned on me that I value this far above sheer intellectualism. 

So I can sum up my hierarchy with the following statement:

I view intelligence as openness and responsiveness to new ideas and the pursuit of growth in oneself. The people I prize the most in my life are flexible of thought, challenging for me to understand (because I seek growth, too), sincere in their words, and generally kind-hearted. While I acknowledge that pure intellectualism can be extant outside of every part of my criterion, I tend to view people without those traits as being "less" intelligent than the Literati who do have them in addition to an intellect that forces me beyond my comfort zone.


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## Natalie (Aug 16, 2010)

I love this, Ana ( :wink: )! As you know, I so enjoy intellectual people, and I, as you, tend to prefer people who are OPEN to new ideas--whether or not they have a high IQ or a lot of alphabet soup after their names. People who pursue higher education very often have a pure desire to learn and discover new ideas, which also often indicates the openness we're talking about. Talking to a person with a love of learning is wonderful--it lifts my energy and feels very playful and refreshing.

At the same time, though, I completely agree with Chaotic's comment about those with a love of DOING as opposed to learning (or even with a genuine love of both!). I have a lot of respect for these people as well. I sometimes find them more intimidating to be around because they really push me and put me to my proof, but wow how exciting to be with people who are active and challenging! There is an earthiness and risk that I feel when I'm with people like this and it titillates me.

I think my life is more vibrant for knowing people and surrounding myself with people who engage in life in one way or another--whether it be via intellectual or physical exploration. The greatest struggle is to try to engage with people who have little interest in either.


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