# INFj INTp Relationship?



## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

I have read up a lot on MBTI and I've started looking into socionics a little bit. I think the things that turned me off of socionics were firstly that there is this whole aspect of what you look like being a factor in what your type is(I don't know to what degree all the proponents of socionics actually take that seriously), secondly the duality relations don't make much sense to me at a glance(can't imagine myself thinking an ESTj is "too good for me" sorry), but I understand them in theory and I don't believe I have known an ESTj yet anyway, thirdly I never seem to relate to descriptions of INFj quite as much as I do INFP. INFjs seem to me to always be described as somewhat conservative, serious, hardworking perfectionists. These aren't things that I relate to very much. I think of myself as a creative, nonconventional loner. I have taken socionics tests and I'm always typed as INFj.
What did cause me to become interested in socionics again was that the descriptions of type relations that I am able to compare to my experiences are all pretty close. Like, for example, the ISTp that I dated in high school. It was unsuccessful for reasons that are not type related, but there has always been this energy between us that I can't explain. Basically, if I'm talking about him I don't really have a single good thing to say about him. I really don't think he has a modicum of respect for me. But we never argue and even when he has said things that are infuriating to me I usually just steam about it for a while and then it's like, "Eh, that's just the way he is..." and I end up not minding it which is not really how I would feel if most people insulted me. And when we spend time together the conversation is easy and we are constantly making each other laugh.
So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message. He was the one who initiated our relationship and at first I wasn't very impressed with him. The first few times we talked I think I assumed that we happened to be discussing things that he was particularly interested in and that was why he was so knowledgeable about them. But after spending more time with him I realized that these were actually things he was only mildly interested in and that he is that knowledgeable about everything. When discussing those things that are his biggest area of interest, his knowledge is astonishing. So, at the point of this realization I became completely intimidated and it was really difficult for me to talk to him at all. Over time this isn't as much of a problem and these are feelings that I've discussed with him already and I think he was flattered.
We don't have arguments but every time there is a problem it seems to be a problem that I have. I will either decide that I'm overreacting and then I'll be sad/irritable for a time with no explanation, or I will decide that it's worthy of discussion and then he'll apologize and we get on with it. But he has NEVER ONCE made any complaint about me. He says he feels bad when he can't make me happy. Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.
So I guess what I want to ask is if it seems like we are following a typical path in our relationship for people of our types? And does this mean that I will begin picking at his imperfections more and more until it ruins our relationship? Or that as he becomes more and more a normal part of my life and less and less a lofty figure on a pedestal that I will get bored with him and detach? And if so is there something I can do to change the course of things? The truth is that I have grown a lot from knowing him. I think I'm much more grounded in reality. I'm more practical about my future than I was before, I have a more realistic sense of self, and more reasonable expectations. I don't know if there are any ways that he feels he has grown by knowing me. I do think that he respects me. He always tells me that I'm talented and intelligent and he sincerely asks me for my opinion about things. He seems excited to share his accomplishments with me and to get my input.
Here is an example of a conversation after he had read a story that I wrote:
"I liked it. You write really well. I want to try writing stories like that, but when I sit down to try I can never get started."
"You should try jotting down any ideas you get at any time in a notebook so that you have a lot of material to work with when you get started."
"Okay, I'll try that!"
So would that be a conversation that people with this kind of relationship would have? Because from what I've read a Benefactor would usually not really value anything a Beneficiary has to say and wouldn't think that they give good advice.
But when descriptions of these relations are talking about this inability to accept help or advice from the Beneficiary, is it specifically referring to the Fi function? Because I don't really think I've done anything to help him improve his emotional depth or value judgments. Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?
I know this is long and rambling and I will really appreciate anybody who wants to take the time to read it and address my concerns.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

I refuse to read this until you space your paragraphs out correctly.


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

Abraxas said:


> I refuse to read this until you space your paragraphs out correctly.


wait what is the that prioritizes good aesthetics
there is a dichotomy
like if something is wrong in some ways, it becomes evil and bad
and if something is not wrong or good its good
like 
i will oppose reading something or doing something if it makes me annoyed or bored
or if its uninteresting or the format sucks
let me seee
constructivist vs. emotivist
r u emotivist


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## Zamyatin (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't know about your boyfriend's type, but the Ne ramble is unmistakable. You're definitely a delta NF, so you can put that question to rest.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

famousblueraincoat said:


> the duality relations don't make much sense to me at a glance(can't imagine myself thinking an ESTj is "too good for me" sorry), but I understand them in theory and I don't believe I have known an ESTj yet anyway


Why not? LSEs are normally extremely knowledgeable and caring, and this is what impresses their dual.

I've known one of my duals since long before I discovered Socionics. He impressed me with his incredible social skills, his ability to debate with me on everything, and the fact that he agreed with me on countless things. He worries about his inconsistent beliefs, but I don't notice it.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Fried Eggz said:


> Why not? LSEs are normally extremely knowledgeable and caring, and this is what impresses their dual.
> 
> I've known one of my duals since long before I discovered Socionics. He impressed me with his incredible social skills, his ability to debate with me on everything, and the fact that he agreed with me on countless things. He worries about his inconsistent beliefs, but I don't notice it.


Maybe because I haven't ever known one very well and they aren't how I'm imagining them? I like a lot of things about Te, but I don't find much to admire about Si. I guess since the Te would be dominant I would get along with them better than the ISTp that I knew. I don't think I've ever been friends with an extrovert who wasn't a feeling type though...


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

So, why is it that the INTp would be able to help the INFj with Te, but the INFj would be unable to help the INTp with Fi? Does it have something to do with what order the functions are in?


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Zamyatin said:


> I don't know about your boyfriend's type, but the Ne ramble is unmistakable. You're definitely a delta NF, so you can put that question to rest.


What does "delta" NF mean? I'm pretty convinced that I use Ne and Fi so if I'm not INFj then I think I'd probably have to be ENFp, but still neither of them seem quite right, maybe because I need to do more reading, ha.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

They are talking about quadras which I find very inaccurately labeled for my case but very insightful as independent beings. Like how beta quadra fits me like a glove and delta leaves a distaste.

lol, Ne rambles and walls of texts.

Highlight people ! don't be so mean.


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## SiFan (Mar 10, 2015)

famousblueraincoat said:


> ....
> 
> So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message.
> 
> ...


Edit ... cut!

Selena87 pointed out ...

"While this is sound advice, I think she is talking about Socionics INFj and INTp, which loosely translate into INFP and INTJ in MBTI terms."

I missed that. The advice (about MBTI INFJ - INTP) does not apply to your relationship.


Welcome to the forums, Famousblueraincoat!


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

SiFan said:


> Evidently, socionics says that an INFJ - INTP romantic relationship isn't likely to turn out very well over the long term. The MBTI type description says, in effect, the same ...


While this is sound advice, I think she is talking about Socionics INFj and INTp, which loosely translate into INFP and INTJ in MBTI terms.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Zamyatin said:


> Ne ramble is unmistakable. You're definitely a delta NF, so you can put that question to rest.


Nah. Alpha SF.


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## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

famousblueraincoat said:


> So on to the INTp that I have been dating for around two years. The descriptions I have read of relations of benefit seem to be pretty close in a lot of ways. I haven't shared this with him because they are so negative in tone and I don't want to send him the wrong message. He was the one who initiated our relationship and at first I wasn't very impressed with him. The first few times we talked I think I assumed that we happened to be discussing things that he was particularly interested in and that was why he was so knowledgeable about them. But after spending more time with him I realized that these were actually things he was only mildly interested in and that he is that knowledgeable about everything. When discussing those things that are his biggest area of interest, his knowledge is astonishing. So, at the point of this realization I became completely intimidated and it was really difficult for me to talk to him at all. Over time this isn't as much of a problem and these are feelings that I've discussed with him already and I think he was flattered.
> We don't have arguments but every time there is a problem it seems to be a problem that I have. I will either decide that I'm overreacting and then I'll be sad/irritable for a time with no explanation, or I will decide that it's worthy of discussion and then he'll apologize and we get on with it. But he has NEVER ONCE made any complaint about me. He says he feels bad when he can't make me happy. Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.
> 
> Because from what I've read a Benefactor would usually not really value anything a Beneficiary has to say and wouldn't think that they give good advice.
> But when descriptions of these relations are talking about this inability to accept help or advice from the Beneficiary, is it specifically referring to the Fi function? Because I don't really think I've done anything to help him improve his emotional depth or value judgments. Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?


As an INTp I don't place much value in judgments made by Fi. The reason he can improve your Te is because you listen to him, but you can't improve his Fi because he is unable to truly "listen" to you. In his world this stuff is automatically filtrated out as if it was of no use, and I don't think it's either of your fault. But it isn't something obtrusive either, you both have similar ways of thinking and feeling. Fi is just more of an unconscious thing for him.

I think you'd put it as a struggle to find the right words, but for him it's more like it's hard to grip the emotions so that he can describe them properly, not the actual describing itself. It's no wonder people say logic has no power in the land of emotions.

It's also an INTp thing to not discuss our weaknesses so openly. He's most likely very aware of them himself, but he'll work through them on his own in his own time. You are his project of improvement (we love improving things and we'll never give up on a partner), he's attached to you and it's obvious that you two have a respect for each other.

Maybe he isn't complaining about what you see as weaknesses in yourself because he doesn't necessarily always see them as such? You probably make him feel very good as well.


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## SiFan (Mar 10, 2015)

selena87 said:


> While this is sound advice, I think she is talking about Socionics INFj and INTp, which loosely translate into INFP and INTJ in MBTI terms.


Thanks, Selena! I've corrected the posting.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

You're using the P=j and J=p assumption. This is not fact. This is an assumption made to make up for the lack of a translation table by the originators of either system. Some of the Socionics tests follow this assumption as well, asking similar J/P questions as MBTI, and then swap the letters to match the P=j and J=p assumption.

INFj is beneficiary to INTp. ISFp is beneficiary to INFj.

However,

INFp is benefactor to INTj.

Thing about the ben. relationship, is the one who actually has the upper hand from a logical standpoint, the beneficiary, becomes the one trying to please the one who has the most to gain, the benefactor. The Benefactors use of the creative function activates and reactivates the beneficiary's suggestive function, telling the beneficiary that this is something good that can be gained. However, the Mobilizing function of the beneficiary is weak and unvalued by the Benefactor, leaving the Beneficiary's Mobilizing function void. The benefactor, on the other hand, does not have his Suggestive function activated, and therefore knows unconsciously that this is definitely not his dual. The Mobilizing function of the benefactor, though, is sporadically met by the sporadic use of the beneficiary's creative function. So, the Benefactor gets what his Hidden Agenda wants and at the correct frequency, and the beneficiary gets something he wants and at the wrong frequency. The Suggestive function is also called the dual-seeking function, and because of such, the beneficiary's strong desire for the dual causes the ben. relationship to exist indefinitely, and at the beneficiary's expense, since the benefactor gets more of what he wants and is never tricked into thinking the beneficiary might be the dual.

I have been benefactor and beneficiary. Beneficiary on an online side-project, so I only lost my idle time. However, the ISFp women I have known, come to the point where if I wasn't Fi leading function, these women would have thrown away their entire lives to me and eagerly.

Benefactor... And beneficiary... The names are slightly an ironic and sadistic joke, as the real relationship is actually the opposite of each word. Benefactor gets it all and ends up for the better. Beneficiary gets jack and ends up the worse.

What you are describing is you being the Benefactor, not the Beneficiary.

Your ISTp, if you used the translation assumption, would be an ISTJ. If the translation assumption is wrong, this would make you an INFp and he an ISTj, each other's activity, and the INTp an INTj, your beneficiary.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> You're using the P=j and J=p assumption. This is not fact. This is an assumption made to make up for the lack of a translation table by the originators of either system. Some of the Socionics tests follow this assumption as well, asking similar J/P questions as MBTI, and then swap the letters to match the P=j and J=p assumption.
> 
> ...


Before sending the defensive response I had originally typed, I decided to read descriptions of INFp and INTj on sociotype.com(go ahead and let me know whether this is a good resource or not.) I definitely relate to the personality description that's given of INFp more than the descriptions I've read of INFj. That being said, I read the descriptions there of INTj and INTp and I cannot see any way that he's INTj and not INTp. So if he's INTp and I'm INFp that would make us comparative and that really doesn't sound like us. So something still isn't coming up right. The cognitive functions of MBTI INFP fit me to a t. Does that say anything about what I might be typed as in socionics? How much similarity is there between socionics cognitive functions and MBTI cognitive functions? I assumed that they were basically the same, or very similar, which is why I never bothered looking into INFp as my type, since I am very much not INFJ. It's not that I assumed being INFP automatically made me INFj, but I did think of it as a good starting place for figuring out my type since the cognitive functions are the same.
How possible do you think it is that I'm INFj? Could you(or anybody) give me an example of a socionics test that isn't going to make the assumption you're talking about? I'm definitely going to be looking into INFp as a possibility as well now, but this confuses things as far as my boyfriend's type and the kind of relations we're talking about here.
I understood very little of your description of relations of benefit because I'm unfamiliar with the terminology that you used. I do appreciate you trying to help me out, but I'm very new to this.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Blue Soul said:


> As an INTp I don't place much value in judgments made by Fi. The reason he can improve your Te is because you listen to him, but you can't improve his Fi because he is unable to truly "listen" to you. In his world this stuff is automatically filtrated out as if it was of no use, and I don't think it's either of your fault. But it isn't something obtrusive either, you both have similar ways of thinking and feeling. Fi is just more of an unconscious thing for him.
> 
> I think you'd put it as a struggle to find the right words, but for him it's more like it's hard to grip the emotions so that he can describe them properly, not the actual describing itself. It's no wonder people say logic has no power in the land of emotions.
> 
> ...


Thank you for saying all of that.  I don't necessarily want him to make the same complaints about me as I make about myself, it's just that he doesn't criticize me at all. It would be nice to think that that means he likes every little obnoxious thing about me, but I don't think that's very realistic.
There are definitely Te type criticisms like, "Actually, that isn't true." etc. But there's obviously a difference between telling someone that a statement they made is inaccurate and telling them that their behavior is hurtful or unfair. I'm sure this has something to do with one of us being a thinking type and one of us being a feeling type, but I can't think that being a thinking type could mean that you'd never be frustrated with the way your lover treats you, only with the accuracy of their statements...
Does Fi being unconscious make it so that if there is a criticism like this about my behavior, he wouldn't really experience it very strongly or consider it to be something that matters much? So that where a feeling type would go, "Quit sulking like a child and say what's bothering you." he would just note that the sulking is occurring and maybe that it is not an admirable quality, but wouldn't think it is a big deal? By working on them on his own in his own time do you mean that if he did have a criticism like this about me, instead of addressing it, he would try to act in a way that might prevent it from occurring again in the future?


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

famousblueraincoat said:


> Sometimes I think he must have problems that he isn't discussing because how on earth could he not have a single issue with me in two years time? I am moody and inconsistent and I'm afraid of commitment and I can't face my future. He's never made any kind of complaint about these flaws.


Agree with Blue Soul. I am an INTp as well and I used to tutor an INFj girl in math. We were pretty close, and she was, as you said, moody and inconsistent but I was never bothered by that, if that is what you are worrying about, OP.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

famousblueraincoat said:


> Maybe because I haven't ever known one very well and they aren't how I'm imagining them? I like a lot of things about Te, but I don't find much to admire about Si. I guess since the Te would be dominant I would get along with them better than the ISTp that I knew. I don't think I've ever been friends with an extrovert who wasn't a feeling type though...


Si is focussed on comfort for the person itself and those around them. This means good food, a comfortable home, stability and security.

For someone as detached as an INFP, you'd think that a partner with these qualities would be extremely valuable.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

You can read these descriptions for the female portion of the IEI, and the male portions for LII & ILI.

IEI male and female - Wikisocion
LII male and female - Wikisocion
ILI male and female - Wikisocion

The functions of MBTI use the same names as the Information Elements in Socionics, but there are a bit of differences between the two, and often what is called a function in MBTI is what would be most similar to a function as a dominant function compared to the combination of the Leading and Ignoring functions in Socionics; e.g., MBTI Se is a combination of Leading Si and Ignoring Se in socionics.

The socionics functions (the positions in Model A) show both the Conscious and Unconscious parts of the mind. People are either extroverted or introverted (this is independent of MBTI or Socionics, as it is basic psychology). Extroverts have a conscious focused on the external world and an unconscious focused on the internal world. Introverts have a conscious focused on the internal world and an unconscious focused on the external world. Again, this is independent of system, as this is base psychology. MBTI was developed first as a test, and then had the functions determined from there. Part of the test is the J/P preference. The MBTI model shows the functions based upon the person's J/P preference as their first Extroverted (or external) judging function. For the Introvert, who is consciously internal, this would mean the function stacking is showing the person's stacking for their unconscious. The first unconscious function in Socionics is the Demonstrative Function, and the second is the Ignoring Function. This would mean J=j and P=p, and that the original Socionics and MBTI tests (which are basically the same) are correct, and that the J/P switch is actually in MBTI, not Socionics. Because MBTI is focused on the person's external J/P, knowing little about either system, it would be easier for someone to type someone else by MBTI functions (since you can't see a person's internal world easily). In MBTI, everyone knows that INFP is generally the warm/emotional one between INFP and INFJ. In socionics, Fi has nothing to do with emotions nor emotiveness, and is instead, basically, morality and the psychological relationships between people, and Fe is emotions, emotiveness, and emotional expression. Both INFp and INFj are strong in each, same as the Socionics versions of Ni (predictions/fantasy) and Ne (hidden potential/possibilities), but Fe and Ni are valued by INFp and unvalued by INFj, and Fi and Ne are valued by INFj. I'm good at creative writing but rarely do it (Ni) and am very warm (Fe) but only sporadically with those close to me. This is probably why INFj felt like such a poor fit for you, because you're very socionics Ni, and warm and emotive with basically everyone you meet (that isn't an a-hole at least).

Despite others' opinion that is based upon Dominant being spot #1 in MBTI and Leading being spot #1 in Socionics, I can assure you that if he tests as INTJ on 16personalities.com, then he is an INTj.

So, why wouldn't he seem like an INTj to you? Because, if he is one, then he is your beneficiary, and you probably ignore all the things he talks about that are really important to him, without even realizing it. This is in no way a criticism. This is just what Benefactor/Beneficiary is, and why it is so bad for Beneficiary. You regularly activate his dual-seeking function, like a strong magnet, and he continuously supplies what one of your lacking basic needs are. However, other than that, you both devalue half of the other's valued functions. It just leans more in the Benefactor's favor. And yes, part of this relationship is that both Benefactor and Beneficiary seem oblivious as to who is the REAL one benefiting from it.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> You can read these descriptions for the female portion of the IEI, and the male portions for LII & ILI.
> 
> ...


Things I related to about the IEI description you linked:

"She appears changeable and often has childishly tender face, dresses stylishly."

"Although they have academic potential in any discipline, female IEIs flourish best in subjects such as humanities, literature, arts and theater, sociology and psychology. They tend to avoid athletics and sport..."

"She loves to read verses to an audience. She listens to all with interest and expresses warm affections."

"She is very responsive to any tomfoolery and pranks. With her it is never boring. Being selflessly brave and even reckless, she can propose some very risky activities, which without her nobody would have even though of. For example, in the middle of the night to climb up to the very top of university's main building and get to the spire itself, to which there is no access and where the doors have been boarded up. Much excitement and fear to be experienced by everyone! And all this adventure will be accompanied invariably by her crystal laughter."
This one is so-so. I would only be like this with certain people, and not with my boyfriend. He is not usually up for these kinds of shenanigans. I also usually only behave this way if I've been drinking, unless I'm in some kind of crazy mood.

Another thing that has piqued my interest in INFp as a possible type for myself is that today I read in a book about enneagram that type 4 corresponds to Jung's Ni. I've always thought that type 4 fit really well with Fi. So if I'm associating a lot of qualities that have to do with Ni with Fi then that could account for me thinking that my dominant function(or whatever the term) is Fi.

Things about the LII that sounded like him:
"Men of this type are rarely jealous and physically possessive. Usually they are proud of their significant others and see nothing wrong if their girlfriend or spouse is also liked by others."

"Not only from his children, but LII man also expect this from adults, that they will behave intelligently and in accordance with reasonable general human norms. He wishes that others would strive to understand what occur around them, analyze available facts and come up with conclusions. In this, he is frequently disappointed when he encounters stupidity, brashness of actions, shallow estimations, and poorly thought-out ideas."

Things about the ILI that sounded like him:
"Young BALZAC, irrespective of whether he is slender or portly, resembles a small boy who grew to the size of an adult. May be this is due to the fact that in their childhood such boys often surprise other people by their outstanding mind and an almost encyclopedic knowledge that goes well beyond their years. Becoming accustomed to the enthusiasm and praises of adults, they preserve on their face an expression that is characteristic of the child prodigy."

"The distinguishing features of his face are the clever, sad eyes, full of hopeless skepticism, often with dark circles. Men of this type favor dark colors in clothing, such as dark blue with gray or brown with black."

"BALZAC is burdened by the slow flow of all possible processes, although himself he does not hurry anywhere and thus makes an impression of sluggish lout. A man of this type can indifferently sit in an armchair, read a captivating book, and then instantly get up, get ready in three-five minutes, and leave the house by the required time."

"Himself BALZAC prefers to work behind the scenes. He does not like forcing himself to answer or make phone calls, even if this is necessary for work."

"He often avoids situations that involve open and passionate declarations of feelings and noisy parties with empty, senseless conversations."

Also, I could have copied practically the whole ILI passage here because almost all of it sounds exactly like him. I'm thinking if INTJ and INTp are totally incompatible then maybe he was mistyped in MBTI. He took one test casually and also took MBTI tests for work and for a class and has been consistently typed as INTJ, so it wouldn't be super likely that he was mistyped but... I can't get over how much more INTp he seems then INTj. Maybe the fact that socionics is more internal and I don't get full access to his internal life could account for a misunderstanding of what fits him best. Especially if I'm somehow ignoring everything that he cares about... I know that he cares a lot about politics and history and when he talks about these topics I can be at a loss for how to respond or what questions to ask. It is too fast paced and he talks about topics that I don't know enough about, so I can end up kind of smiling and nodding at times. I try to read up on his interests so that I can keep up with him but sometimes I start to feel like I'm spending too much time trying to do this that I should be using to pursue my own interests. He's been referred to as an amazing resource about these topics by many people, but why can't I seem to engage him and gain real access to all the information he has to offer? Does this sound like what you're talking about?


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> Si is focussed on comfort for the person itself and those around them. This means good food, a comfortable home, stability and security.
> 
> For someone as detached as an INFP, you'd think that a partner with these qualities would be extremely valuable.


I don't mean to diss Si or anything. I'm not saying that these qualities aren't nice or valuable. My mother is an ESFJ which can sometimes be suffocating, but I obviously still love her and appreciate what she's done for me. I do enjoy food and comfort and I guess since maybe I'm somewhat unstable and insecure that I would definitely benefit from being with someone who can bring these things to the table. Still not interesting to me.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

Yeah. That last IEI description you quoted seemed a little over the top towards the end. LOL

You wrote in your first post that you don't agree with Socionics' typing by a person's looks. Some do take it so far as to say genetics and the way someone looks is evident of their personality type. However, visual identification is really more about their appearance than their "looks;" e.g., the way someone smiles, how they walk, their emotional expressions, mannerisms, etc. For instance, there is a portly red head at my work who is an ISFJ. One day when seeing a picture of him smiling in a certain pose, it reminded me of my cousin, and I began thinking about how each of their facial expressions normally looks and their smiles. Had my cousin take the test, and he is also an ISFJ. The avatars on these forums are also similar. If you go into the MBTI sub-type forums, you will see that each sub-forum has usually two sets of recurring avatar themes of it's personality type. One is the correct one, and the other is the incorrectly typed one on J/P. My avatar has these themes: Human-based, intuitive, non-emotive, realistic. Most the INFJs have something along similar lines. Then there are ones who have this theme: Human-based, intuitive, emotive, fantastical. An example of this one would be a smiling elf girl rubbing leaves against her cheek. This is INFP. You can see this by going to the INFP forums also. Why? Because INFP/INFp has focus on emotions and fantasy (Ni). If you go back a few pages, you will seethe ILI avatar with the owl. INTP/INTp often have non-human primary subjects in their avatars, and often of a fantasy nature. Weak Fi and strong Ni. Often in real life, INFJ will maintain a lowered head while still looking forward.

You can use the following link to see how MBTI does this as well. The four pictures down at the bottom can be clicked to switch from like T to F and such. May have to reload to get back to original picture. Just memorizing the pictures in that well let you fairly accurately type someone by visuals if you actually know the person and have a decent Ne.

http://www.parentingbytemperment.com

For your boyfriend, Quadras and Romance Styles can help either you or your bf determine his type. Often with young people, not being completely independent will skew their J/P due to others such as parents being in control.

Alpha Quadra - Wikisocion
Gamma Quadra - Wikisocion

You quoted the ILI portion basically saying that the ILI doesn't like knit groups where people are laughing and being emotional. The part of the Gamma Quadra that makes them such is unvalued Fe. Emotional expression is an afterthought to Gamma. Because Ti (order/hierarchy/organizations) are replaced by Fi, both emotional expression and necessity for cliques/clubs/tribes basically go out the window. However, compared to Beta, looking to the future/planning and power/possessions is still present. The result is like Washington D.C. Now, you say he doesn't like to be part of groups where people are laughing and being emotive. However, Alpha is opposed to Se, which relates to power, possessions, and competition, but beta likes these things. Because of lack of Se, and presence of Si, Ti, Fe, Alphas enjoy settings that are like house parties with good friends or like pubs. Hang out with your clique, be comfortable eating good food and drinking good drink, and everyone laughing and smiling. Beta, on the other hand, has Se, Ti, Fe, and enjoys settings that are like college bars/clubs or frat houses. Hang out with your clique, show off your stature, and everyone laughing and smiling. If you think about nightclubs, they are essentially a place to have fun and compete for dominance and importance. Everyone there wants to, and tries to be, "that guy" or "that girl," one of the big dogs. Even if they aren't a top dog, they still follow the social pecking order. So it may not be that he dislikes merry cliques, but rather that he dislikes competitive merry cliques. If I had to pull an analogy out of my rear, for the quadras... Alpha would be a hippy commune, Beta would be an Entourage in Hollywood, Quadra would be a planning committee, and Delta would be a utopianism.

Victim - Wikisocion
Infantile - Wikisocion

These romance styles can be very informative, but are really only very definitive if you are intimate with the person and have been with some of the other romance styles. Girls often mistake me for the Victim type until we are intimate. Then they realize how playful/silly I am with respects to intimacy (infantile). People who are in same Quadra or in same or corresponding romance style usually do decent enough together for at least a while. I know the "victim finds infantile goofy and irritating" and "infantile sees victim as paranoid and confusing" is usually very accurate. Note: As opposed to Quadra or individual type comparisons, which are meant for any form of interaction, the romance styles are really strictly for romantic relationships.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

famousblueraincoat said:


> So would that be a conversation that people with this kind of relationship would have? Because from what I've read a Benefactor would usually not really value anything a Beneficiary has to say and wouldn't think that they give good advice.


That's actually the opposite of what happens in these relations. Benefactor sticks around the Beneficiary because they get much needed information from Beneficiary on their Hidden Agenda i.e. by means of these discussions you're fine-tuning his Fi which the INTps need very much. The Benefactor actually listens very closely to his or her Beneficiaries, considers their opinions worthwhile and often intelligent, but the Beneficiary seems inept in _actualizing_ those opinions. A SEE for example goes around and reinforces their Fi while an EII sits home and talks about it -- to put it in very simple terms. This lack of extraverted activity and creatively used ethics is usually what seems insufficient to INTps in INFjs.



famousblueraincoat said:


> Usually when we are discussing our deepest emotions we both struggle to find the right words. When I try to explain a complex emotion to him, I find myself trying to put it in terms that are "normal" and when I try to describe it in the most truthful and complete way, I find that I really dislike the way I come off. I think that I sound like I'm trying to be really deep or like I'm trying to make a normal emotion sound like something that is unique to me. I don't have this problem when I'm talking about myself with people other than him. Could this be a manifestation of an inability on the part of a Beneficiary to use their strength with the Benefactor?


That sounds more closely related to your Enneagram type rather than Socionics type. If you re-read what you wrote, there's a contact evaluation happening in your mind: "that is not good enough" ... "but he's good enough" ... "but am I good enough for him?" ... "why hasn't he nitpicked at my flaws yet?" ... "I'd like to know about my imperfections" ... "am I far from his ideal?". And the striving towards normalcy. And the blunt and truthful way of putting things across of the gut triad types. You're probably type 1.

Taking this into account you should look into enneagram types if you want to analyze your relationship further. Your INTp isn't a Type 1 which is why he isn't going around and picking at your imperfections, as you're expecting him to do by your own self-image. If you figure out his enneagram type and instinct variant, you'll get further in analysis of your relationship. Socionics isn't the only typology that influences what goes on between people -- it can explain part of it, but you've stuck a point where you need to expand and consider other typological systems.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

cyamitide said:


> That's actually the opposite of what happens in these relations. Benefactor sticks around the Beneficiary because they get much needed information from Beneficiary on their Hidden Agenda i.e. by means of these discussions you're fine-tuning his Fi which the INTps need very much. The Benefactor actually listens very closely to his or her Beneficiaries, considers their opinions worthwhile and often intelligent, but the Beneficiary seems inept in _actualizing_ those opinions. A SEE for example goes around and reinforces their Fi while an EII sits home and talks about it -- to put it in very simple terms. This lack of extraverted activity and creatively used ethics is usually what seems insufficient to INTps in INFjs.


Makes sense! Thanks. 



cyamitide said:


> That sounds more closely related to your Enneagram type rather than Socionics type. If you re-read what you wrote, there's a contact evaluation happening in your mind: "that is not good enough" ... "but he's good enough" ... "but am I good enough for him?" ... "why hasn't he nitpicked at my flaws yet?" ... "I'd like to know about my imperfections" ... "am I far from his ideal?". And the striving towards normalcy. And the blunt and truthful way of putting things across of the gut triad types. You're probably type 1.
> 
> Taking this into account you should look into enneagram types if you want to analyze your relationship further. Your INTp isn't a Type 1 which is why he isn't going around and picking at your imperfections, as you're expecting him to do by your own self-image. If you figure out his enneagram type and instinct variant, you'll get further in analysis of your relationship. Socionics isn't the only typology that influences what goes on between people -- it can explain part of it, but you've stuck a point where you need to expand and consider other typological systems.


Is it possible that this could be a sign of growth as a type 4? Since I know that type 4 is supposed to move in the direction of type 1 when they are in a state of growth. As I said, I don't have the concerns I was talking about when I'm talking to people other than him. It's actually abnormal for me to feel this way because I am someone who enjoys analyzing all the nuances of my emotions, writing them down, discussing them with people. I know I don't want to be someone who just feels the way other people do, I don't even think that is possible.
But when I'm talking to him, and maybe this is because it matters more to me that he really gets what I'm trying to express, I feel like I am not doing it adequately. I guess one way that I could put it is that I'm trying to translate my emotions. Normally I would try to translate the pure emotion into some kind of phrasing that does the best to explain it as it really is. With him it is like I'm trying to translate the translation into the closest terms that people would normally use to express a similar emotion. It's not like I think this second translation is actually a better way of genuinely getting across how I'm feeling, it's more like I freeze up. I can't find the right words, so I settle for something close. He is type 5.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> Yeah. That last IEI description you quoted seemed a little over the top towards the end. LOL
> 
> ...


Well that description of the Alpha Quadra definitely fits him much better then the Gamma Quadra. I also read about the other Quadras and Alpha is most appealing to me. Reading about the Beta Quadra, I did relate to the list of Fe blocked with Ni qualities, but if I went to a party that was like the description of Beta group behavior I would probably end up in tears. A total of three people is ideal for me. I definitely prefer quieter events, small groups, intimate interactions.

Also, I think the Victim romance style is most fitting for me and none of them seem to really fit his romance style... he does have some of the qualities of infantile and caregiver. I don't find him goofy and irritating at all, I totally get his sense of humor and I think he's highly intelligent. I don't know if he finds me paranoid and confusing, but that wouldn't be surprising.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

famousblueraincoat said:


> Well that description of the Alpha Quadra definitely fits him much better then the Gamma Quadra. I also read about the other Quadras and Alpha is most appealing to me. Reading about the Beta Quadra, I did relate to the list of Fe blocked with Ni qualities, but if I went to a party that was like the description of Beta group behavior I would probably end up in tears. A total of three people is ideal for me. I definitely prefer quieter events, small groups, intimate interactions.
> 
> Also, I think the Victim romance style is most fitting for me and none of them seem to really fit his romance style... he does have some of the qualities of infantile and caregiver. I don't find him goofy and irritating at all, I totally get his sense of humor and I think he's highly intelligent. I don't know if he finds me paranoid and confusing, but that wouldn't be surprising.


Well, I wrote about the Quadras in a min-max way and exaggerated them. Betas usually have their own groups, and everyone else has their place in it, and people generally get along. There is an undertone of your group versus other groups, though, as each group is concerned with getting the most for people in their group. The means of doing this is also different for each of the personality types. INFp for instance will be warm and friendly to the other groups, but for the means of the INFp's own group. It's basically the cool cliques from popular media. 

Victims are all Beta or Gamma. I read somewhere that Infantile is a conversion of Aggressive through Ne (if I remember correctly), and Motherly is of Victim through Si. If he's INTj, he would be trying to please you unconsciously and regularly, so the negatives of his Infantile may not present themselves very much.

As his potential benefactor, you're probably best served just having him read the type profiles, quadras, and romance styles and have him tell you if he is an INTj (tell him not necessarily same as MBTi). If you're benefactor, you will have a default cloudy ability to determine.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Well, I wrote about the Quadras in a min-max way and exaggerated them. Betas usually have their own groups, and everyone else has their place in it, and people generally get along. There is an undertone of your group versus other groups, though, as each group is concerned with getting the most for people in their group. The means of doing this is also different for each of the personality types. INFp for instance will be warm and friendly to the other groups, but for the means of the INFp's own group. It's basically the cool cliques from popular media.
> 
> Victims are all Beta or Gamma. I read somewhere that Infantile is a conversion of Aggressive through Ne (if I remember correctly), and Motherly is of Victim through Si. If he's INTj, he would be trying to please you unconsciously and regularly, so the negatives of his Infantile may not present themselves very much.
> 
> As his potential benefactor, you're probably best served just having him read the type profiles, quadras, and romance styles and have him tell you if he is an INTj (tell him not necessarily same as MBTi). If you're benefactor, you will have a default cloudy ability to determine.


I also should have mentioned that I have social anxiety, which might skew my perceptions of whether the Beta interactions sound appealing. I don't like feeling like I need to be entertaining everybody every time I speak up when opening my mouth in the first place is enough of a struggle. But even setting that aside, even though I enjoy joking around, and certainly wouldn't want to see anybody being excluded, if I had to give up either lively group interactions, or the quiet discussion of intellectual topics with my two dear friends, I would quickly give up lively group interactions easily and without looking back.
Does it all really fit together so nicely? I mean the only reason I relate to the Victim profile is that I relate to the other ones even less. But it certainly isn't like I fit with it to such an extent that I'm necessarily going to fit into every category that the Victim type is supposed to fit into.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

Well, yes, social anxiety would do that. Social anxiety also only applies to those you are not comfortable with. Look at the Beta descriptions from a "close friends and family" perspective.

You have INFp, Victim, and Beta. If you have leanings towards more than two of these three things' descriptions compared to others, then you wouldn't be able to be anything other than all 3 of them. (Unless you're actually Extroverted)

Unless you dissect yourself constantly, a lot of the things underlying INFp aren't something you would have readily realized before.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> Well, yes, social anxiety would do that. Social anxiety also only applies to those you are not comfortable with. Look at the Beta descriptions from a "close friends and family" perspective.
> 
> ...


Well unless somebody tells me how all of the aspects of INFp, Victim, and Beta that I may relate to are fundamentally inseparable from the aspects that I don't relate to, then I'm not going to take the claim that they somehow fit my personality seriously, not if I can't see any way that they do.
I am not constantly, totally aware of all of my behaviors and the motives behind them, but that doesn't mean that those who crafted Socionics are. I'm never going to identify myself with something that I don't relate to just because it's talked about in connection with traits that I do relate to. Only when I honestly observe a trait in myself am I going to consider it an aspect of my personality. If someone tells me that I must have certain arbitrary personality traits, just because I have other traits that have been paired up with them, I am not buying it. That is exactly why I never bothered to consider astrology.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

Long time. I honestly barely remember this discussion lol.

Victim is your atypical passive, yet moody female, except it applies to males as well, and is the "essence" of the passive/moody.

Most of my family are betas. At holidays, they get together in a large room, about 10 people, and it is a stream of joyous energy and laughter, where you cannot readily tell what the exact topic is nor determine who the primary speaker is, introverts included (in their own way). I go sit outside.

The Victim comes from a weak yet valued Se, which means that although you display force/power less than others, you like a strong man, as you value the power which you do not create yourself. The Beta comes from valuing order, having a place you fit in, wanting to get somewhere in life, the desire of the finer things in life and stature, and the emotional warmth to connect them all. Ti/Ni/Se/Fe.

Edit: The "I'll be whoever I wanna be dangit!" is Fe. The "snippyness" is the Se.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> Long time. I honestly barely remember this discussion lol.
> 
> ...


Let me start by saying it isn't just about being who I want to be dangit. It's about becoming who I am. This is incredibly important to me so if it comes across as snippy when I express that I place a very high value on the fact that my identity is determined by my actual behaviors and impressions, then I don't really care.
Telling me that the fact that I'm a Victim means that I like a strong man doesn't mean very much to me if I don't completely relate to being a Victim and I know for a fact that I'm not primarily seeking strength or power in my significant others. I also doubt that only Beta types want to get somewhere in life.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@famousblueraincoat

Well, you just did all those things.


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## famousblueraincoat (May 13, 2015)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @famousblueraincoat
> 
> Well, you just did all those things.


All of which things?
I valued order?
Looked for a place to fit in?
Tried to get somewhere in life?
Desired the finer things and stature?
Expressed emotional warmth?
Sought a strong man for myself to create power that I do not create myself?
What? Do you mean just now? Where?
I'm not saying that I don't do some of these things, but I don't think I have all of the qualities associated with Victim and Beta. You're welcome to tell me exactly how I do, but I'm not promising that I'll agree with you on that. I also relate very much to qualities associated with some of these other categories like Infantile, caregiver, and alpha. I also don't know if I completely understand what you meant by that comment because it was very vague, so bear with me if this isn't addressing what you were trying to say there.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

You pushed. Someone has to push back. If you push in relationships, even online discussions, someone has to push back. Caregiver and Infantile don't like pushing. They'll just leave.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Jeremy8419 said:


> You pushed. Someone has to push back. If you push in relationships, even online discussions, someone has to push back. Caregiver and Infantile don't like pushing. They'll just leave.


Does this mean you are not infantile, since you keep pushing back? 

All joking aside, I feel that statement is too generalizing.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Wrapped it up and left after the Se.


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