# INFJ type 4s



## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

I've noticed that loads of self-typed INFJs are 4 (or identify as 4 anyway), which I've always found interesting -- 4 isn't exactly the most Fe-ish enneatype ever. So I'd like to get a glimpse into the mind of this peculiar yet apparently common type of person, if you'll be so kind. 

-What led you to the conclusion that you're INFJ? 
-Have you ever considered an Fi type, such as INFP or even INTJ/ISFP?
-How does 4 fit with your INFJ-ness, in your opinion? 
-How would you describe your 4 tendencies?


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

I have a theory to this.
If a self-typed 4 INFJ is really a 4 (but not necessarily an INFJ) they probably want to be an INFJ because it is supposedly the rarest MBTI type. 4's want to be rare, unique, and one of a kind. 

I see most 4's as an INFP or ISFP, possibly ISFJ.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

The13thGuest said:


> I have a theory to this.
> If a self-typed 4 INFJ is really a 4 (but not necessarily an INFJ) they probably want to be an INFJ because it is supposedly the rarest MBTI type. 4's want to be rare, unique, and one of a kind.


My thoughts exactly, although I think ISFJ is significantly less likely, if anything, to be 4 than INFJ. 4s are almost by default Fi types -- FPs of all kinds (INFP > ENFP > ISFP > ESFP), plus INTJ.


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

Aleksei said:


> My thoughts exactly, although I think ISFJ is significantly less likely, if anything, to be 4 than INFJ. 4s are almost by default Fi types -- FPs of all kinds (INFP > ENFP > ISFP > ESFP), plus INTJ.


 Yes however I think it is more likely for them to be an I*FP because most 4's seem to be introverted. Especially w5.
I think when 4's mistype as a INFJ they are actually INFP, not ISFJ. 
But I also think some 4's on here actually are INFJ, just not all of them. I also think a lot of INFJ's mistype as a 4. 
And some of the 4's on here (and in general) seem to be 6's, especially females.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

The13thGuest said:


> Yes however I think it is more likely for them to be an I*FP because most 4's seem to be introverted.


4w5s are introverted almost by default. 4w3s, on the other hand, have a performer streak to them and are normally ambivert types -- usually ENFP, or ISFP.


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

Aleksei said:


> 4w5s are introverted almost by default. 4w3s, on the other hand, have a performer streak to them and are normally ambivert types -- usually ENFP, or ISFP.


That is why I said "especially w5"
And I didn't know there were ambivert types, that's interesting. I should read about it more before I go talking like I know this shit. Or are the ambivert types not official?


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## iseeincolor (Aug 29, 2010)

hello,
well i am an infj and a 4w5. i have tested infj since i was 20 (i'm 28). i'm confident of both my mbti as well as my enneagram. but i agree that it doesn't seem that Fe would fit with a type 4! I think INFJs in general identify as Other which goes along with a type 4, but I'm stumped about the Fe. I score highly in Fe but still yearn to be seen as set apart. hmm. I do think the introverted intuition plays a part in the type 4. just how, i don't know. but i'm up for conversation about this.


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

I've read somewhere that 4's have a approbation for respect in a sense, and I feel this very much myself. I feel that I find myself being extremely self-conscious and non-spontaneous around people I'm unfamiliar with. When I'm completely comfortable, on the other hand, I'm very spontaneous and try to make the other person enjoy my company by being witty and funny. I only do this when I feel like the other person understands me and I'm getting the gratitude/respect I deserve. I'm also VERY conscious of what others think and feel (not that I can read minds or anything). I find myself anticipating what people say.. almost like I care too much. This is normally when the other person is a stranger. I can do this with close ones if we are on very good terms, but I do take my friends for granted when they do the same to me.. as few friends as I have. These are the main reasons why I think I'm an Fe type. I do think my Ni supersedes the Fe and I reflect in to myself more often than I go out and get involved with others. I'm sickeningly reclusive at this time of my life, but I have a lot of ambition and will for inspiration.
My preference is 4w5 sp/? INFJ. Although, the concept of wings sometimes loses me. If often read that self-pres 4s are a lot like 6's and 1's, which seem like J types. My father is an INFP 4 sx. My mother, an ExFJ 8. Most likely an S though. I'm sure our parents types affect ours through genetics and the way we are raised. Idk, I'm just trying to help. Haha.


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## Aleksei (Apr 3, 2010)

The13thGuest said:


> That is why I said "especially w5"
> And I didn't know there were ambivert types, that's interesting. I should read about it more before I go talking like I know this shit. Or are the ambivert types not official?


It's not official, but if you read a 4w3 description it sounds very much not outright introverted. :wink:


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

Aleksei said:


> It's not official, but if you read a 4w3 description it sounds very much not outright introverted. :wink:


I suppose. I haven't read in depth on all the enneagram types and their wings. I have enough books to read on it though.


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

Lol.. I guess you no longer care about the thread topic..


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## XL Sweatshirt (Feb 11, 2011)

The couple of INFJ's I know often seem as though they're more Fi than Fe... but yet I'm somehow certain that they are INFJ. They're significantly more in touch with their emotions than other Fe types and prone to estrangement as well. 

Both of the INFJ's I know I'm positive are also enneagram 6's. But, I could see where the confusion of 4 could come into play. I do think of INFJ's as creative and sentimental and sensitive types. And the paranoia may make them feel different, as well as the fact that they meet so few people who can truly understand them.


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## iMaven (Jan 14, 2011)

DontKnowJack said:


> I've read somewhere that 4's have a approbation for respect in a sense, and I feel this very much myself. I feel that I find myself being extremely self-conscious and non-spontaneous around people I'm unfamiliar with. When I'm completely comfortable, on the other hand, I'm very spontaneous and try to make the other person enjoy my company by being witty and funny. I only do this when I feel like the other person understands me and I'm getting the gratitude/respect I deserve. I'm also VERY conscious of what others think and feel (not that I can read minds or anything). I find myself anticipating what people say.. almost like I care too much. This is normally when the other person is a stranger. I can do this with close ones if we are on very good terms, but I do take my friends for granted when they do the same to me.. as few friends as I have. These are the main reasons why I think I'm an Fe type. I do think my Ni supersedes the Fe and I reflect in to myself more often than I go out and get involved with others. I'm sickeningly reclusive at this time of my life, but I have a lot of ambition and will for inspiration.
> My preference is 4w5 sp/? INFJ. Although, the concept of wings sometimes loses me. If often read that self-pres 4s are a lot like 6's and 1's, which seem like J types. My father is an INFP 4 sx. My mother, an ExFJ 8. Most likely an S though. I'm sure our parents types affect ours through genetics and the way we are raised. Idk, I'm just trying to help. Haha.



you are ISFP Profile


lol compare infj "Writing, counseling, public service and even politics are areas where INFJs frequently find their niche. "

to isfp "Organized education is difficult for the majority of ISFPs. Their interest can be held better through experiential learning, at which many excel. ISFPs will practice playing an instrument or honing a favored skill for hours on end, not so much as practice as for the joy of the experience. "


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## iMaven (Jan 14, 2011)

how does this not align with a type 4??

*"Extraverted feeling, the auxiliary deciding function, expresses a range of emotion and opinions of, for and about people. INFJs, like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor. Some vent the attending emotions in private, to trusted allies. Such confidants are chosen with care, for INFJs are well aware of the treachery that can reside in the hearts of mortals. This particular combination of introverted intuition and extraverted feeling provides INFJs with the raw material from which perceptive counselors are shaped. "
*
sounds a lot like a 4 to me..
they have a wealth of feelings that they withdraw within to. we all know that "unbridled candor" or letting to much of our 'self' out in expression is something we're experienced with. we definitely know the shame it can bring to see our self-image made into a joke or the like. To see our untypical behaviors questioned. This is more prevalent in the less healthy states though..
*"Once stuck in their moods and reactions, average Fours typically withdraw from others to protect themselves from further self-exposure and from running the risk of humiliation, rejection, and abandonment* (aka the "consequences of unbridled candor".) *But by withholding themselves, they have fewer reality checks, and it becomes increasingly difficult for them to ask others what they think of their emotional reactions. Further, those few people with whom they are willing to communicate *("confidants")* are almost never the same people with whom they have grievances or emotional problems."*

since we've realized that expressing our 'self' to certain people can yield negative intent, we have learned to prevent our insecurity from arising by sharing our 'self' with a select few. Or we learn to deal with others negativity and remain steadfast in their reproaches.
I don't know about all of you, but I'm pretty aware of the treachery that can rest in mortals when sharing yourself. *cough* let me quote someone

*"go slap your girlfriend and yell at your mother."*

hah, a "friend" of mine taking my "_mistyping_" too seriously and bringing up events that happened over 2 years ago. 
I'm now convinced some people just aren't stable enough to contain themselves. (this is why nukes have always been a bad idea.)


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

> you are ISFP Profile
> 
> 
> lol compare infj "Writing, counseling, public service and even politics are areas where INFJs frequently find their niche. "
> ...


What an in-depth analysis. Good job.


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

> "go slap your girlfriend and yell at your mother."


whoa whoa whoaaaaa man. No INFJ would do that! Imposter! Imposterrrrr!


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## sea cucumber (Oct 14, 2010)

-*What led you to the conclusion that you're INFJ? *-
Tests and retesting, its the most fitting description and aslo the cogantive functions add up

*Have you ever considered an Fi type, such as INFP or even INTJ/ISFP?*-
No. I know both Fi types and im nothing like them. My funtions are Ni and Fe and I operate acordingly to them

*How does 4 fit with your INFJ-ness, in your opinion? *-
yes although it is a little conflicting. It makes for a very emotional person, but also a very creative one

*How would you describe your 4 tendencies? *

Im not sure how can diferentiate between them.

Im pretty much exactly as a 4w5 explains. Im interverted and intutive with it. Type 4 is me INFJ are the functions that deal with.

I comnicate and think as N I order myself as J but my basic motivation is that of a 4w5

There are lots of INFJ 4's


BTW I live with an ISFP teacher that teacher, she teaches spanish and french


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## The13thGuest (May 3, 2011)

DontKnowJack said:


> whoa whoa whoaaaaa man. No INFJ would do that! Imposter! Imposterrrrr!


My mom is an INFJ and she would say that. 
You aren't to be the judge of who other people are by one sentence that they say.
Plus, people say a lot of things on the internet they wouldn't say in reality.


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

> My mom is an INFJ and she would say that.
> You aren't to be the judge of who other people are by one sentence that they say.
> Plus, people say a lot of things on the internet they wouldn't say in reality.


I think I'm an INFJ and did say that to him. But I was saying an INFJ wouldn't DO that.


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## iMaven (Jan 14, 2011)

DontKnowJack said:


> whoa whoa whoaaaaa man. No INFJ would do that! Imposter! Imposterrrrr!


i like how you automatically correlated that to my point that you are not an infj.
defensive? maybe not, but just saying..
i was "relating to the topic".. lol chill


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## DontKnowJack (Apr 18, 2011)

> i like how you automatically correlated that to my point that you are not an infj.
> defensive? maybe not, but just saying..
> i was "relating to the topic".. lol chill


Do you think I'm one not to "automatically correlate" things? Heh

Btw.. sorry, Aleksei, for this nonsense. :\


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## iMaven (Jan 14, 2011)

DontKnowJack said:


> Do you think I'm one not to "automatically correlate" things? Heh
> 
> Btw.. sorry, Aleksei, for this nonsense. :\




i really hope you're not grouping my well-thought out comments into this "nonsense". i'm trying to address the first post in the thread, instead of being condescending and reactive; but thanks for all the constructive insight.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

I actually kind of agree with @Aleksei's points... In my own case, though, I was an INFJ who thought they were a Four. I identify and have consistently tested as Four because I am sensitive and withdrawn and different from everybody else (I don't see it as a source of pride, though. I'm just aware of it.)... But, unlike a Type Four, I don't have a strong sense of self-identity. So, I was on the reverse side... An INFJ who thought they were a Four, but was really not because I don't have the defining archetype of Four, pride in their individuality and uniqueness.

It's only when I took the PerC Enneagram quiz, that I started considering otherwise. 4 was never able to quite get into my core type, no matter how many times I retook it...

I could easily see how it goes the other way around, though...

Sorry for the necropost, but this is a really interesting thread. We should continue it.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I am an INFJ and a type 4. I use Fe a lot of the time, but I try to use it while also maintaining a sense of uniqueness -- just not superiority, which I imagine would make other people feel bad or get annoyed at me. I value my authenticity very much. I also use Introverted Intuition most of any function. I don't see that part as contradicting the 4 in the enneagram. I've always tested as INFJ and read Jung's book and Gifts Differing -- I relate to INFJ and 4 equally, though I do seem to switch sides of my personality from time to time.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

I do want to attempt to clarify something...

The big reason people believe that INFJ and type Four don't go together is not because of expressiveness or anything like that.

Fi is the function that considers the feelings of the individual. Which leads Fi's to commonly believe in authenticity and internal values such as being true to yourself, and one of the important things Fi brings to the table is personal validation. They don't care whether you're supposed to feel that or whether emotional outbursts are appropriate in a public setting. They only care about what you do feel. This is the Fi user's strength. Unhealthy or immature Fi that doesn't see the value of Fe, though, can be selfish in its motives and cause drama for everyone involved. 

Fe is the function that considers the feelings of the group. Fe's strength is making a harmonious connection for everyone involved. It is concerned with the atmosphere of the entire room rather than the individual. It learns to value polite behavior and charisma to inspire or calm feelings in the room. It can be a great power in summing up the feelings or sentiment of everyone and making sure the group is atmospherically appropriate. Unhealthy or immature Fe that doesn't see the importance of Fi can be insensitive to the feelings of the individual, going so far as to bully people for emotions they see as harmful to the group.

At least, this is what I think... I'm not sure if the information is completely correct.


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## vrusimov (Jul 26, 2011)

...I did a lot of work with the Enneagram for about a year...I dug up everything I could from Karen Horney, Riso & Hudson [Personality types], Carl Jung, Socionics, SimilarMinds, Enneagram Institute, Enneagram Central, TypeLogic...etc. I just could'nt stop digging for a long time...I ended up with over 100 pages of "stuff" printed from the internet...according to Jung, Type Four correlates to introverted intuition as the dominant function, which is of course INFJ and INTJ...I have studied object theory...how types move away, against and toward each other (underneath and overtly)...parental orientation, talk style, core fixations, psychological correlations, audio, video, writing...does'nt make me an expert but it is based in humanities, something I find fascinating to no end...to understand the core or "kernel" of an individual...

...having read Riso & Hudson [Personality Types], I identify heavily with level 3 and especially level 4 for the Four type...they have a lamenting talk style...they alternate between feelings of superiority and inferiority...envy drives them...Fours are'nt afraid to explore and experience their negative emotions...it is how they seek to work through them...like I said before...it is not just about art, music or creativity...it is also about "meaning"...what is noble, truthful, humane, transcendent...what is beautiful from an abstract point of view...abstract intuition, like I used to do in math class when I was frustrated, which incidentally, is another thing that fours suffer from...reactive frustration with not being able to figure things out, or because of things not going according to plan...Fours can't "talk" themselves out of what they feel...they have to "feel" their way out and sometimes it takes time...you chew on something until it no longer affects you the way it did initially...it is like diving slowly into a deep, dark pool and then coming up for air...


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Aleksei said:


> I've noticed that loads of self-typed INFJs are 4 (or identify as 4 anyway), which I've always found interesting -- 4 isn't exactly the most Fe-ish enneatype ever. So I'd like to get a glimpse into the mind of this peculiar yet apparently common type of person, if you'll be so kind.
> 
> -What led you to the conclusion that you're INFJ?


Honestly... It was a rocky road. 

I took the test, got INFJ, INFP, INTP, INTJ. So I gave that up and checked out the functions. 

After checking out the functions, and asking my friends and family, I narrowed myself down to INFJ. I resonated heavily with Ti, Ni, and Fe. 

My Ti is the obvious one. I have an INTP dad, so he helped it along. I really enjoy the Socratic-like Ti nit-picking and one of my favorite pass-times is picking apart ideas for logical inconsistencies. 

While I appreciated my dad's Ti, I wasn't Ti-Ne like my father. I never reveled in it. My primary mode of intuition was a far more grounded than his, and I often found him losing me while I wanted to stay on a single topic. 

While he was fascinated by "What made things work", especially mechanisms. I was far more concerned with what made people work. I was fascinated with ethical objectivism, and strove to find a standard of objective rightness and wrongness that could be used to judge everyone fairly. 



> Have you ever considered an Fi type, such as INFP or even INTJ/ISFP?


Yeah, actually. 

I'm pretty disorganized and I believe in mental versatility. I am also fiercely independent. Before I saw the Ti, Fe, and Ni in myself, I thought I was an INFP. 



> -How does 4 fit with your INFJ-ness, in your opinion?


I'm not positive I'm a 4. I know that I tested as a 4... 

What I do know is that I am very independent. While most of my fellow INFJs tend to value consensus, I will fiercely argue for what I see as right, and against what I see as wrong. I put more value on the truth than on getting along :laughing: 

I also don't really get it when I see fellow INFJs looking for sympathy. I don't think sympathy has much value. In the end, it is up to the individual to either have what it takes to get the job done, or not.

But at the same time, when two people i know get in a dispute of an emotional nature (rather than a logical one), I'll often meddle and reconcile the argument via sneaky Fe-manipulation methods :laughing:. At jobs with lots of drama, I use my Fe in underhanded ways to prevent fights, or stop fights.


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## Jamie.Ether (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm INFJ and Type 4, to my best knowledge. Can I ask what is the contradiction that people find with INFJ 4's? Because I'm not seeing it.
When using MBTI and Enneagram, your type is not going to be a spitting image of you. There will be things about the type that you don't agree with and some traits you don't have. It's just the majority of traits, and the type that fits BEST. It's not an exact type. So I think mentioning that INFJ's and Type 4's don't share a few qualities doesn't mean much. People have more complex and individual personalities than just those traits listed.


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## xEmilyx (Jan 3, 2011)

vrusimov said:


> they have a lamenting talk style...they alternate between feelings of superiority and inferiority...envy drives them...Fours are'nt afraid to explore and experience their negative emotions...it is how they seek to work through them...like I said before...it is not just about art, music or creativity...it is also about "meaning"...what is noble, truthful, humane, transcendent...what is beautiful from an abstract point of view...abstract intuition, like I used to do in math class when I was frustrated, which incidentally, is another thing that fours suffer from...reactive frustration with not being able to figure things out, or because of things not going according to plan...*Fours can't "talk" themselves out of what they feel...they have to "feel" their way out and sometimes it takes time...you chew on something until it no longer affects you the way it did initially.*..it is like diving slowly into a deep, dark pool and then coming up for air...


wow yeah this is exactly how i am. That described what I've wanted to be able to say to others for months, but I could never word it right. Thanks!
I'm an INFJ and a 4....not sure how it works...but I guess it does because I am very confidant that I'm an INJ and also a 4.


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## Bobrobob (Sep 20, 2011)

I wholeheartedly agree with the feeling our way out of the way we feel. I can attempt to persuade myself that I'm doing alright but in the end I don't truly believe it until I actually feel that all is right. It seems to take me forever to get over things. Frustration from the confusion of not being able to figure out what is going on with my emotions totally plagues me. Very insightful and informative, thanks


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## lebon (Jun 7, 2013)

both INFJ and INFP have their own traits that correlate well with E4 IMO.

I think an INFJ that tested as a 4 would proud him/herself as being visionary.. as 4s tendency to compare reality with what could be.
also, 4s are the most intuitive among enneagram types just like INFJs are the most intuitive type of the MBTI.

whereas an INFP would relate more with 4's emotional intensity,fantasy, and creativity.
and yes, many E4 INFPs believe they are INFJs.. youtube videos are blatant example of that. it is ironic as that itself isn't really being true to self and inauthentic. 

btw, I notice other MBTI types (I've seen an ISTP,ESFJ, & 2 ENTPS) that are also a 4 are more internally conflicted as their most developed functions are not E4's strongest traits.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Aleksei said:


> 1. What led you to the conclusion that you're INFJ?
> 2. Have you ever considered an Fi type, such as INFP or even INTJ/ISFP?
> 3. How does 4 fit with your INFJ-ness, in your opinion?
> 4. How would you describe your 4 tendencies?


1. I've known I was INFJ for years. I very much utilize Ni more than any other function. That Ni is fueled by humanities-oriented interests, which are a strong Fe interest.

2. When I first heard of MBTI, I thought I was INFP. I also thought I was INTJ for a while and even ENFP (during a somewhat manic period).

3. The way Ni works corelates with how I think of the 4. A repository of images, dreams, thoughts, and emotions collected from everyday experiences, and transformed into something fresh and whole. At least, when I'm healthy. -_-

4. A very pronounced loner streak, a stubborn insistence on authenticity, a constant feeling of longing and frustration, and a predilection towards beauty.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Fe users may be just as prone to envy and fear of being ordinary as Fi users.
There's enough mistypes in E and mbti that correlations shouldn't be taken as gospel.


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