# Let's try this again



## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Requesting another re-typing. Created a thread a few months ago and I think it turned into a fiasco. Figured I'd make a second attempt, for some added perspective and validation.

0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.

Male, Eighteen, Stable (although could be better)

1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.

No random photo, so I chose one that I thought was cool:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neighya/8444479486/in/explore-2013-02-04

Well, I suppose the first thing I thought of when I saw the tree was life, along with the spiral staircase. I kind of started thinking of a "Stairway to Heaven" for whatever reason. Personally, I don't believe in God, and I'm not a religious person, but that's just the kind of impression I got. There's something peaceful about the picture; the contrast between orange and blue, the location of the tree in the middle of a field, isolated from other sentient life forms, including man, who's domain is present in the picture, the city on the horizon. Pretty cool picture. 

2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?

I think my immediate reaction would be to get out of the car and try to identify what the cause of the break down was. I would probably be pretty pissed, at least if we were in danger of missing the concert. Otherwise, I'd probably keep a cool and level head as I try to figure out what the hell to do. Hopefully, we could figure out what the problem was. If we did figure out what the problem was, I'd try to search the car or the general vicinity in order to find something to fix the problem (flat tire, engine problem, etc). If there doesn't happen to be a reasonable solution to the break down within the time constraints (getting on time to the concert), I'd probably end up making a few calls to whoever I thought could help us out (highway patrol, friends, etc).

3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?

If I was planning on doing something else that I was really wanting to do, I'd probably not be very enthusiastic about the party. I'd also probably be pretty anxious, I don't really like socializing with strangers. Hopefully there would be some beer or liquor, that normally does the trick, haha. In the end, I think I'd probably go along with the party (well, maybe if there was only alcohol, otherwise, I'd rather avoid it). 

4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?

Depending on what was said, I might think to myself "Oh really? Explain yourself, fucker." Then I would go on to say just that. Well, not necessarily, but I would definitely want to hear what they had to say. If I deemed their argument to support their claim valid, I would probably engage in a debate as to why the friend was wrong in what they said. Not in an effort to change their views, but rather to share my own perspective and beliefs. If their argument was deemed invalid, I would probably just tell them they're a fucking idiot.

5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?

It would depend on if I thought it was worth the time and energy to actually do something about it. If whatever I saw/experienced was out of my control, I wouldn't bother dealing with it. Why fret over something you have absolutely no power to change? In the case that whatever sight or experience seriously conflicted with my beliefs, especially ones I have a strong view on, I would definitely take a stand, in opposition.

6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence

7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? 

I guess I'm generally a laid back and care free person, despite being quite temperamental. I think the things that distinguishes myself from everyone else is that I do not fear what most people fear, I'm strong willed, open minded, and very independent. Honestly, I don't think the majority of people see the more serious side of myself.

b) If you could change one thing about your personality, what would it be? Why?
I think one thing I'd like to change about my personality is my tendency to be impulsive at times as well as disregarding other people's feelings, including my own. I admit that my emotional side is in serious need of nurturing. 


8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?
I'd like to think I pay a lot of attention my hunches or gut feelings, they usually tend to be right, although there has been many a time where I was wrong, and became quite skeptical of "listening" to them. I think they're most often triggered when I'm trying to solve a problem or come up with a solution or meaning to whatever my mind is musing.

9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?
I think learning or reading something I find to be really interesting energizes me the most. Also, when I come up with something I think is really clever, like a joke among friends for example. Socializing with people I dislike tends to drain me quickly, as well as engaging myself in any activities that bore me.

10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?
I think I tend to repress the more abstract side of myself. I have a fairly strong interest in theory, Psychology, Philosophy, etc. Most of my friends are usually pretty put off when I try to discuss deeper subjects, although I think the majority of my friends are S's, yet I know a few of my intuitive friends don't like too speak to heavily on the subjects either.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

I remember your last thread, and as I recall the reason it crashed and burned was because you were not in a great frame of mind at the time. However, I think you're on the Fi-Te judging axis. Hope things are better for you.


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

Contrary to the post above me, I think you're an Fe user (but not in the ENFJ/ESFJ kinda way). My bet's on ISTP, and don't be put off by the big S in that. STPs seem to be the most N-like S types in my experience.

The reason I say ISTP is 'Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence' are all big time Ti words and not so much Te words, and I don't think you're a feely feeling type. I've already forgotten why I said ISTP over INTP, but I'm sure I had a good reason. The reason why the guy above me says you're an Fi user is that ISTP's fourth function is Fe, which they repress in favour of their strong introverted thinking, making them look like Fi users sometimes.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Well, I think at first the reason why I thought Fi-Te axis was the OP's answer to question 4; that's a very personalized, and angry, reaction to the other person's POV. But I can definitely see where you see ISTP, especially Ti in question 5. And inferior Fe in questions 7b and question 9. So yeah, I changed my mind. And:



> Hopefully there would be some beer or liquor, that normally does the trick, haha. In the end, I think I'd probably go along with the party (well, maybe if there was only alcohol, otherwise, I'd rather avoid it).


Using a classically Se type of method to deal with an inferior Fe problem, perhaps?


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

I have a question for you, though: why do you think that Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence, are all Ti keywords and not Te? Adjectives are adjectives.



> The reason why the guy above me says you're an Fi user is that ISTP's fourth function is Fe, which they repress in favour of their strong introverted thinking, making them look like Fi users sometimes.


Inferior Fe and Fi are totally different things, though. And I'm a woman, dude. .


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Ellis Bell said:


> I remember your last thread, and as I recall the reason it crashed and burned was because you were not in a great frame of mind at the time. However, I think you're on the Fi-Te judging axis. Hope things are better for you.


Yes, I do believe that I was not in the right frame of mind to be accurately typed at the time I had made my previous thread. Personally, I think you are correct in saying that my judging functions are Fi and Te. 



Velasquez said:


> Contrary to the post above me, I think you're an Fe user (but not in the ENFJ/ESFJ kinda way). My bet's on ISTP, and don't be put off by the big S in that. STPs seem to be the most N-like S types in my experience.
> 
> The reason I say ISTP is 'Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence' are all big time Ti words and not so much Te words, and I don't think you're a feely feeling type. I've already forgotten why I said ISTP over INTP, but I'm sure I had a good reason. The reason why the guy above me says you're an Fi user is that ISTP's fourth function is Fe, which they repress in favour of their strong introverted thinking, making them look like Fi users sometimes.


Strange, I am honestly quite surprised by this response. Although I suppose I can agree that "Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence" is a rather "Ti" response, I personally identify myself as an intuitive type. Being so literal and concrete is rather a bore for me, I can quite confidently say that I make connections to unrelated subjects on a daily basis, much to the amusement of my friends. Even if I were a Ti user, or an ISTP, that would not account for the Te that is present in my responses, unless you think that there is no Te evident. Also, yes, I definitely think that I am not an F type, most of the people that know me would probably describe me as an asshole and unnecessarily direct in my thoughts, with disregard to their affect on others.



Ellis Bell said:


> Using a classically Se type of method to deal with an inferior Fe problem, perhaps?


Perhaps I should stop trying to make statements that are said primarily out of amusement. No, I don't honestly think whether or not alcohol would be served at a party would make an impact on my decision of attending it. I think I said that more out of "getting something out of the party" rather than the alcohol itself. I think I simply have an affection for alcohol, which I believe to be independent of any cognitive function, nurture over nature.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

I think I can provide a good example of how I make connections to unrelated subjects. I had somewhat of a revelation while I was taking a shower. For whatever reason, I thought of the colors Red and Orange, which I then immediately thought of "Rust". After the word rust came into my head, I suddenly thought of Autumn. In Autumn, the leaves of trees turn orange, dying. I then, for lack of a better word, connected the color of rust, orange, to the color of the leaves of trees in Autumn, also orange. Ultimately, I suppose I came to the conclusion that the color orange is a representation of _aging. _When objects rust, they are "aging". When the leaves of trees turn orange, they are also aging. Now, I don't know if this is true or not, but I think that when the Sun begins to age, it gradually turns more orange, eventually hitting red, then turning into whatever colors. Orange is the color in between the colors Yellow and Red. So (I apologize if this is hard to follow), I think it is safe to assume to say that orange is seemingly a representation of mid-life (or aging). To add a tad bit more confusion, I also attribute the words life to the color green as well as the sun. The reason green is a symbol of life is due to the color of vegetation on Earth, which all sentient life is dependent on. Similarly, the Sun is a symbol of life because, without the Sun, nothing in the Solar system would be capable of existing, at least as they do.

Another example I can provide also occurred recently. I was playing the video game Halo 4 with two friends of mine. In the game, I was killed by the enemy team's top player, who was wielding a shotgun in the central building of the map. After I was killed, I immediately said to my friend's, "God damn, that dude is going King Kong on that building". Note how I said immediately. No thought occurred before saying the joke, and it was the first time I had ever made it. So, I speculate that I took the concept of "going ape shit", combined that concept with the location I was killed (the building), which then resulted in the joke "Going King Kong on that building". It was all rather subconscious. 
EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, I forgot another detail in my joke. The fact that the person who killed me was the enemy team's top player. He was "the king".

Honestly, I have a very good idea of which MBTI personality type I am, however, I'm curious to see what others opinions are. So far, they have totally differed from what I think I am (ISTP in this thread, ENTP in the thread prior).


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

Heavy Te, sounds like a classic example of an ENTJ. Lots of Te expression with obvious dominance, Fi inferior bursts, Auxiliary Ni evidenced in support of the Te.

If not ENTJ, then INTJ. If not either, I suppose ESTJ is a possibility. 

All the same, I see loads of Te.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Jabberbroccoli said:


> Heavy Te, sounds like a classic example of an ENTJ. Lots of Te expression with obvious dominance, Fi inferior bursts, Auxiliary Ni evidenced in support of the Te.


Heh, perhaps I am an ENTJ. I don't know though, I thought of myself as an INTJ, yet ENTJ makes sense as well. It's just that my Mother is an ENTJ, as well as a friend of mine. There isn't too much of a difference between the three of us, although I do notice that they have a much shorter fuse than I do and lack patience. Also, they are better at improvising than I am. Often when a plan of mine takes a turn for the worst, I usually beat myself up and have to "go back to the drawing board". This usually means I will have to withdraw from people to better compose my thoughts, otherwise I tend to lock up and be negative. 

On the other hand, I also have two INTJ friends. The difference between us I think is that I am much more vocal than them about my insights and usually care less about things. By that I mean, they both have an issue with losing in video games, often letting their egos get in their way, where as I am generally carefree. They HATE losing, where as I usually just sit there and think of how I can improve myself, or come up with a better strategy/tactic. I also confess that they are more intelligent than I am. I have never told one of my INTJ friends this, but I think to myself sometimes "What's so damn great about being really smart if all you do is sit on your ass and play video games all day". Oh, another thing, this particular INTJ friend of mine is really indecisive, even though he says he always knows what he wants in the end. Myself on the other hand, am much more decisive than he, although I do sometimes tend to regret my decisions when I later see a better option that I had overlooked or not thought of.

Overall, I'd say I am definitely either ENTJ or INTJ, yet I am still unsure.


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## Jabberbroccoli (Mar 19, 2011)

Based on those comparisons, I'd say ENTJ is the most likely option. A Te dominance would explain why you're much more focused on the tasks at hand, why you see your INTJ friends as caring more than yourself, as well as the focus on being decisive. I'd say a period of withdrawal upon failure has little to do with your introversion or extroversion.

If the only difference between yourself and your ENTJ family/friends is that you have a shorter fuse, less ability to improvise, and that you cope worse with failure - I'd just say stepping back and developing your Ni and Se a little more would make you a more well rounded and successful person. Patience and the ability to be calm even in failure will make you far more efficient than just pushing through everything.

ENTJ certainly seems most likely. As a Te dominant, the extroverted focus isn't on people for socialization as much as it is for having dynamic material to work with. It's a similar function to ENTPs' extroversion, which, as a thinker, is also object focused.


I can't seem to fathom why people were typing you as ISTP and ENTP, ENTJ seems to be the clear answer.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Jabberbroccoli said:


> I can't seem to fathom why people were typing you as ISTP and ENTP, ENTJ seems to be the clear answer.


ISTP baffles me, I confess, yet I think I understand why people were typing me as ENTP in my prior thread. Here it is:http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-determine-what-archetype-i-am-estp-intj.html

I think there is quite a stark contrast between my answers in that thread as opposed to this one. Quite frankly, my answers are rather embarrassing to myself.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> ISTP baffles me, I confess, yet I think I understand why people were typing me as ENTP in my prior thread. Here it is:http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-determine-what-archetype-i-am-estp-intj.html
> 
> I think there is quite a stark contrast between my answers in that thread as opposed to this one. Quite frankly, my answers are rather embarrassing to myself.


why are they embarrassing?


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> why are they embarrassing?


Later on in the thread, I start to reveal far too much personal information, which I don't believe was necessary in the slightest. Not only that, I think I was blowing things out of proportion, it was kind of like I suddenly felt the need to spill out my insides, although it was all completely rational at the time. Also, I allowed myself to dwell on too many possibilities, such as that I may have MPD (Multiple-Personality Disorder). That is completely ridiculous, I sincerely doubt I have any form of mental illness, although there was a period of time where I convinced myself I had ADD/ADHD, practically exaggerating things to a psychiatrist in order to obtain a prescription. After I got the prescription, I stopped taking it after maybe a month. It was like, once the possibility that I had ADHD came into my head, it would not go out until I tested the medication myself (I came upon the belief that I had ADHD due to taking a friend's Adderall pill once, which put me into a state of calm). This is part of the reason I believe myself to be INTJ, I've read about Ni - Fi loops, and that period of time seemed to be one of them.
EDIT: On second thought, instead of an Ni-Fi loop, this could've been undeveloped Ni
Not sure though, this occurred when I was sixteen.


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

Ellis Bell said:


> I have a question for you, though: why do you think that Honesty, Integrity, Knowledge, Skill, Intelligence, are all Ti keywords and not Te? Adjectives are adjectives.
> 
> Inferior Fe and Fi are totally different things, though. And I'm a woman, dude. .


I apologise, there was a weird guy at my school called Ellis, so I don't only associate the name Ellis with guys...I associate it specifically with him, lol. I do know that inferior Fe and Fi are two different things...which is why I say that inferior Fe can _resemble_ Fi, not that they are the same thing.

I feel like a Te user list is gonna look more like 'Intelligence, Skill, Knowledge, Integrity, Honesty'. Ti tends to be more about overall understanding, whereas Te is more inclined to go with whatever works to get the necessary result, so Ti types are more likely to be immediately drawn towards 'honesty' and 'integrity' as valuable ideas. That is not to say that Te users can't be honest and integrityyyey, before the other guy in this thread calls me out on this.

The reason I say ISTP over INTP for this guy is that he so adamantly rejects the possibility of being an ISTP, which an INTP wouldn't be likely to do. He is absolutely not a Te user. I'd offer all of the following as strong indications of Ti over Te:

"I would probably engage in a debate as to why the friend was wrong in what they said. *N**ot in an effort to change their views, but rather to share my own perspective and beliefs.*"

*"**Why fret over something you have absolutely no power to change?"

"*I guess I'm generally a laid back and care free person"

"I don't think the majority of people see the more serious side of myself."

"there has been many a time where I was wrong" (lol)

"I'm curious to see what others opinions are." (lol, sorry, I'm just ripping on Te types now, I'll stop...)

But yeah, my point is that they're just not the kind of things that you hear the average Te user say, so if you're a Te user, OP, you're a very unusual one. The other point I'd make is that in your rust/red/orange post which I half read, you kind of go step by step through your thought process, which is _not _particularly indicative of an intuitive. An Ne type, for example, might kind of go 'I was thinking about orange and red, and then I thought about mice, and then I thought about...man, I should totally get like a cactus or something. I'd fucking love to have a cactus sitting on my desk. Or a bonsai tree, I could look at it inbetween...' ... without really bothering to fill in the process between all of those disparate thoughts...because there isn't one. Yours is like 'oh I thought of red and then I thought of a thing that was red and then I thought of a concept that the red thing represented CONCEPT I AM SO AN N TYPE'. It's obvious how A leads to B, and it's obvious how B leads to C, etc.. See what I'm getting at?

----

Look, what you've gotta understand OP is that _if you were an ISTP_, then that would mean that you would have both Introverted Thinking and Introverted Intuition in good spots in your function stack, which can make for a very intellectual and analytical thinker. You're making the mistake that 99.9999% of people on this forum make, which is thinking that 'if you think about abstract concepts sometimes then that _automatically exempts you from being an S type because S types are too stupid to do that_'. I feel like your argument for being an S type is 'I like philosophy and thinking and S types can't do philosophy and can't think'. And...it's not like that. 

But I might be wrong and I don't know anything about personality types so type yourself whatever you like.

EDIT: Oh yeah, ISTPs use detached analysis (Ti) to work out how they can solve the problem at hand in the external world (Se), which is why they can resemble Te types sometimes. It's surprisingly easy to get ISTPs and INTJs mixed up.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

I apologise, there was a weird guy at my school called Ellis, so I don't only associate the name Ellis with guys...I associate it specifically with him, lol. I do know that inferior Fe and Fi are two different things...which is why I say that inferior Fe can _resemble_ Fi, not that they are the same thing.

I feel like a Te user list is gonna look more like 'Intelligence, Skill, Knowledge, Integrity, Honesty'. Ti tends to be more about overall understanding, whereas Te is more inclined to go with whatever works to get the necessary result, so Ti types are more likely to be immediately drawn towards 'honesty' and 'integrity' as valuable ideas. That is not to say that Te users can't be honest and integrityyyey, before the other guy in this thread calls me out on this.

_*I didn't type those words out in any particular order...they're just my personal values, holistically. *_

The reason I say ISTP over INTP for this guy is that he so adamantly rejects the possibility of being an ISTP, which an INTP wouldn't be likely to do. He is absolutely not a Te user. I'd offer all of the following as strong indications of Ti over Te:

"I would probably engage in a debate as to why the friend was wrong in what they said. *N**ot in an effort to change their views, but rather to share my own perspective and beliefs.*"

*"**Why fret over something you have absolutely no power to change?"

"*I guess I'm generally a laid back and care free person"

"I don't think the majority of people see the more serious side of myself."

"there has been many a time where I was wrong" (lol)

"I'm curious to see what others opinions are." (lol, sorry, I'm just ripping on Te types now, I'll stop...)

_*Why are you getting so hung up on minor details? Sure, perhaps these are more "Ti" indicative, but you are completely disregarding some of my answers. Even I can see that I used a strong amount of Te in my answers, and if you claim I don't have any Te, for these minor details, you're a fucking idiot.*
_
But yeah, my point is that they're just not the kind of things that you hear the average Te user say, so if you're a Te user, OP, you're a very unusual one. The other point I'd make is that in your rust/red/orange post which I half read, you kind of go step by step through your thought process, which is _not _particularly indicative of an intuitive. An Ne type, for example, might kind of go 'I was thinking about orange and red, and then I thought about mice, and then I thought about...man, I should totally get like a cactus or something. I'd fucking love to have a cactus sitting on my desk. Or a bonsai tree, I could look at it inbetween...' ... without really bothering to fill in the process between all of those disparate thoughts...because there isn't one. Yours is like 'oh I thought of red and then I thought of a thing that was red and then I thought of a concept that the red thing represented CONCEPT I AM SO AN N TYPE'. It's obvious how A leads to B, and it's obvious how B leads to C, etc.. See what I'm getting at?

_*Ok, you totally overlook the possibility of Ni. I agree, that isn't very Ne. The example I provided goes step by step, yes, that's the way I wanted to explain it, because that's the easiest way of explaining how I got to my conclusion. Going step by step has nothing to do with S or N, I don't understand what you're getting at with that comment. In fact, that's actually indicative of Te. Which for whatever reason, you're completely ignoring. Yes, it discounts Ne...but that's it. Are you sure you're an INTP. Your points are very lackluster. Honestly, I'm inclined to call you a fucking idiot. Just because it is easy to follow my logic, does not mean I'm not an intuitive type. I mean, seriously? If anything, that just means I'm not an Ne type (and further reinforces the fact that I'm a Te user...) Are you honestly saying that intuitive types, as a whole, cannot explain their thought process to another person? I'm sure they could, it's just a matter of who they're talking to. If the N type is talking to another N type, they have an easier time understanding each other, where as an N type talking to an S type would be less capable of doing so.*_




----

Look, what you've gotta understand OP is that _if you were an ISTP_, then that would mean that you would have both Introverted Thinking and Introverted Intuition in good spots in your function stack, which can make for a very intellectual and analytical thinker. You're making the mistake that 99.9999% of people on this forum make, which is thinking that 'if you think about abstract concepts sometimes then that _automatically exempts you from being an S type because S types are too stupid to do that_'. *I feel like your argument for being an S type is* (lol *sarcasm*) I like philosophy and thinking and S types can't do philosophy and can't think'. And...it's not like that. 

_*Ni is tertiary for ISTP's, I'm only nineteen. It is around the age of eighteen that one begins to develop their auxiliary function. Your statement "Introverted Thinking and Introverted Intuition in good spots in your function stack, which can make for a very intellectual and analytical thinker", doesn't really make sense. The likelihood that I can tap into my tertiary function, at this age, so well is highly unlikely. Oh, and Ni in ISTP's in the tertiary is not a "good spot" in my function stack. Especially at my age. Tertiary and Inferior functions are for the most part, unconcious and undeveloped until a later age.
*
*No, I made no such mistake, that is not my reasoning for believing I'm an N type at all. You're just making that assumption for no apparent reason. *_

But I might be wrong and I don't know anything about personality types so type yourself whatever you like.

_*Well, gee, thanks a bunch. Now I understand why I thought you were a fucking idiot. You even say yourself you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. I don't think I need to go step by step on this one to explain how I got to that conclusion.*_

EDIT: Oh yeah, ISTPs use detached analysis (Ti) to work out how they can solve the problem at hand in the external world (Se), which is why they can resemble Te types sometimes. It's surprisingly easy to get ISTPs and INTJs mixed up.

_*The only good point I think you've made. Too bad you're still horribly wrong about my type.*_


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> _*Ni is tertiary for ISTP's, I'm only nineteen. It is around the age of eighteen that one begins to develop their auxiliary function. Your statement "Introverted Thinking and Introverted Intuition in good spots in your function stack, which can make for a very intellectual and analytical thinker", doesn't really make sense. The likelihood that I can tap into my tertiary function, at this age, so well is highly unlikely. Oh, and Ni in ISTP's in the tertiary is not a "good spot" in my function stack. Especially at my age. Tertiary and Inferior functions are for the most part, unconcious and undeveloped until a later age.*_


Before I deal with the rest of that post, what's your source for this information?

EDIT: Or if anybody else can tell me where this 'tapping into functions'/'specific functions develop at specific ages' stuff actually comes from, that'd be appreciated. I'm not necessarily disputing it, I just want to know where this idea comes from.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Velasquez said:


> Before I deal with the rest of that post, what's your source for this information?
> 
> EDIT: Or if anybody else can tell me where this 'tapping into functions'/'specific functions develop at specific ages' stuff actually comes from, that'd be appreciated. I'm not necessarily disputing it, I just want to know where this idea comes from.


I put that in a terrible way.What I meant is that the way I use Introverted Intuition differs greatly from the way an ISTP uses Introverted Intuition.

As a Tertiary Function, Ni typically leads ISPs to suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions. Sometimes ISPs draw upon Ni to find ways to throw a monkey wrench into social systems that call them into some kind of obligation: to respond in ways that don't make sense within the system's explicitly stated ways of interpreting behavior as cooperative or hostile (but are indeed hostile).

The reason why an ISTP uses their Introverted Intuition the way as described is due to the fact that it is their tertiary function, a function that they aren't very familiar with. It differs greatly from the way an ENTJ or INTJ use Ni, for the position of Ni in their function stack determines how the function is used. Now, this I am unsure of, but I think the way an ISTP uses their Introverted Intuition also has to do with their Inferior Extraverted Feeling. Reading the description leads me to believe that their Ni and Fe combine to result in the behavior described.

As for the whole age thing, the functions that make up each type are present since the person is born, however, yes, the auxiliary function does not start becoming well developed until after the individual hits the age of eighteen, then their auxiliary function starts to "shine" more.


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## Velasquez (Jul 3, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> As for the whole age thing, the functions that make up each type are present since the person is born, however, yes, the auxiliary function does not start becoming well developed until after the individual hits the age of eighteen, then their auxiliary function starts to "shine" more.


I'm gonna have to ask the same question again. What is your source for this information? Again, I'm not disputing it necessarily, I just want to know where this information comes from.

My other question for now would be what makes you think that you are _not_ an INTP? Again, you're just so obviously an introverted thinker over an extraverted thinker. Both can be really blunt an honest, but the extraverted thinking is going to be blunt and honest _because it is necessary in order to get results_, whereas the introverted thinker is going to value honesty and integrity for the sake of those things in themselves, which is _exactly_ what you describe when you say that those things are 'just your personal values'. Usually there will be a purpose to an extraverted thinker's criticisms, whereas the introverted thinker is just going to aimlessly lash out like 'you're a fucking idioottt waaaaaah'. Plus you seem to value INTPness to some degree, because you imply that I cannot be an INTP because I'm stupid and don't have good arguments and you disagree with me, whereas you would value the kind of arguments that you suspect an INTP would give. So if you insist on being an N type, why do you think INTJ or whatever over INTP?


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Velasquez said:


> I'm gonna have to ask the same question again. What is your source for this information? Again, I'm not disputing it necessarily, I just want to know where this information comes from.
> 
> My other question for now would be what makes you think that you are _not_ an INTP? Again, you're just so obviously an introverted thinker over an extraverted thinker. Both can be really blunt an honest, but the extraverted thinking is going to be blunt and honest _because it is necessary in order to get results_, whereas the introverted thinker is going to value honesty and integrity for the sake of those things in themselves, which is _exactly_ what you describe when you say that those things are 'just your personal values'. Usually there will be a purpose to an extraverted thinker's criticisms, whereas the introverted thinker is just going to aimlessly lash out like 'you're a fucking idioottt waaaaaah'. Plus you seem to value INTPness to some degree, because you imply that I cannot be an INTP because I'm stupid and don't have good arguments and you disagree with me, whereas you would value the kind of arguments that you suspect an INTP would give. So if you insist on being an N type, why do you think INTJ or whatever over INTP?


Unfortunately, I do not desire to provide you with my sources of information, it would take me too long to remember where the hell the information came from. I can tell you that there are threads supporting my information (on PerC), which you will have to go look for yourself. Actually, I guess I can provide you with a link that supports what I said about ISTP's, although it was not the original source:http://personalitycafe.com/istp-forum-mechanics/83250-building-ni-istp.html

I call you a fucking idiot, not because you're stupid, that's not what I mean, I call you a fucking idiot because you seem to be very uneducated on MBTI and how functions work. You don't seem to be very knowledgeable and therefore, don't really know what you're talking about. You also seem to be relying rather heavily on stereotypes, rather than on cognitive functions. I get the impression that you haven't read too much on cognitive functions, only going by traits and characteristics that each personality holds. 

I think I'm INTJ (ENTJ is still possible) and not INTP because I relate to Ni & Te much more than I do to Ti & Ne. Simple as that really.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Here we go again.

Lenore Thomson for the reference on tertiary Ni? Personally I don't think that's necessarily true, though. I mean, it might describe someone in an unhealthy state of mind, but in someone who's more mature and had a chance to let it develop, it's more well-rounded than that. 

I'm going back to my original guess at Fi-Te axis, though, especially with your continual references to outside sources.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@_TheLaughingMan_ - well I did say that if you take my analysis lying down it would be a better sign of ENTJ. Haha! Excellent intuition, however.

To be frank, I wasn't certain, and in those cases I tend to fly something up the flagpole and see what happens... 

I had to make a decision about what I was going to believe in the earlier posts... was the Ti fake or was the Te fake. I decided the Te was well-enough explained by a Ti/Ni loop and I also generally got the feeling you were ISTP. However, after thinking about it I decided to call up an ENTJ friend of mine and just chat. She is the most 'laid-back' ENTJ I know so I figured it was a good place to start. 

It occurred to me that you are sizing people/posts up subconsciously and responding to them in kind. You seem to be doing exactly what I said about taking in ideas from esteemed sources. My belief in Ti was based half on your anecdotes and half on the way you went after Velasquez - I should have paid more attention to how you responded to others and the dichotomy it presented.

I reread again after that long-overdue conversation and I think Se/Ni middle jumble for sure... something is wrong with Ni here... it's not as developed as I seem to think it should be. You almost seem to be nursing it, in a way. Then it occurs to me that:

1) Several long-winded threads about your type... needing a lot of input.
2) Relying perhaps too much on esteemed opinion.
3) Pissing off the rest. Dichotomy of interaction.
4) Your age and self-reported mental issues.

Changing my hypothesis to ENTJ with an underdeveloped Ni and also a theory as follows... I actually don't really like these loop descriptions, but it will suffice:



> *ES**FP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting any**one's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organi**zing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situa**tion.*


If you really are Te/Se looping you might have a very hard time determining your own type without leaning on an 'objective' source. 

That description leans way too heavily on behavior in a rather extreme case and a bit of hyperbole. It's not likely that the individual will necessarily see themselves this way. The important point is the inability, in the loop, of CONSCIOUSLY utilizing Ni. I've often though this is the result of some form of abuse during adolescence that prevented this function from gaining a lot of traction. Extraverted loops, especially around Ni will involve a great deal of reliance or preoccupation with comparisons in observation to compensate for inability to form a good self-image without it. It's essentially 'what would happen if your Ni disappeared'. Ni is strong subjective sense of your own intuition and absolute (as opposed to relative) competence. As strong Ni doesn't make such comparisons and is able to disregard comparisons and accelerate their own personal exceptionalism as well as strongly develop the ability to intuit better. Lacking this grip on Ni, outside sources are needed to validate ones exceptionalism or lack thereof. Without this, the mind feels it may realize it's own incompetence, perhaps... the resulting crisis would be potentially very dangerous. 

It's likely untrue, and the poor state of the loopers Ni is a self-fulfilling prophecy. However, a human mind cannot live in a constant state of distress and doesn't. The crippled/disabled and sublimated Ni pushes the conscious Te/Se to exacting control or criticism of the environment - bossiness, imposition (seems more common in ESFP) and comparison and decisive action (seems more common in ENTJ). The ENTJ friend I spoke to was unbearable in her teens and early 20s... unless she respected the person, then she would probably be TOO impressionable. I had an ENTJ boss... granted, an extreme case, who used to chew me to bits and treat me like a 'fucking idiot' until I was promoted beyond him, at which point he was instantly deferential and chummy. It wasn't him just being awful, either, I genuinely do not believe he was aware of it at all. Almost as if my shift in the 'objective' strata fundamentally redefined me in his eyes. Yet another example is a brother-in-law who once informed the person sitting next to me that he didn't like me because he 'didn't care for mediocrity' and not spitefully at all. Now, he treats me like a sage and a guru and takes many things I say as true without considering them... then just wanting to act on them to 'get it solved'. In certain situations, his Ni has failed him and to avoid a psychological crisis he picks up the phone and leeches a reliable source for critical direction - taking it all at face-value until experimentation (Se) or observation (Te) (both also external sources) proves it wrong... leaving him disillusioned, most likely. The blame would go to me because he relied entirely on me for his course of action. No subjectivity because no directly utilized introverted function. 

I am not saying this is necessary the case with you... but up the flagpole it goes, one way or another.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok, so I am willing to except the possibility that I may in fact be looping. However, with that being said, I don't think a Te -Se loop is quite right. This is how I would describe my dilemma. It's like, I come up with an idea (of who I am) then I find something that doesn't match with my idea, a flaw. This kind of explains why I go off at random tangents, sharing all this information that pertains to what I think. Someone then shares their thoughts/opinions/perspective, and that doesn't go along with my own idea, or view of myself. So I then naturally, defend my view, divulging even more sensitive information just to continue trying to fit things in. This is how I view myself internally:

"Well, I can see why I would be Z, there's A, D, etc to support why I am Z."
"What about X? That doesn't fit."
"X is irrelevant, A, D, etc. all fit, why does it matter that X does not fit."
"Because it _doesn't_ fit"
"Fuck X, I don't care if it doesn't fit, that would ruin everything."
"It _does _ruin everything. It doesn't fit."
"Fine! Look at this way. There's this, that, blah, blah, blah that can explain why X doesn't fit. Z is still there. A, D, etc. affirms that Z is right."
"Nope. Your logic sucks. X is apart of what makes Z, and it doesn't fit. Find a new Z."
"AHHHHHHHH! But if I find another Z, then maybe C won't fit, then what?"
"Keep trying"

So if I'm having this internal monologue in my head, I think it makes it really hard for me to type myself. It's like, I get an idea of what type I am, then I find something that doesn't fit, or contradicts, and that idea gets sniped down. Same thing happens when other people try to type me. Unless everything that they say matches up, in their own assessment, I have a hard time accepting what they say. 

You know, maybe a video will be helpful? Not sure what information I could provide, I kind of want questions to aid me, but that's just to stop myself from going off topic.

EDIT: Maybe some hypothetical questions, on this thread, could also be useful.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> Ok, so I am willing to except the possibility that I may in fact be looping. However, with that being said, I don't think a Te -Se loop is quite right. This is how I would describe my dilemma. It's like, I come up with an idea (of who I am) then I find something that doesn't match with my idea, a flaw. This kind of explains why I go off at random tangents, sharing all this information that pertains to what I think. Someone then shares their thoughts/opinions/perspective, and that doesn't go along with my own idea, or view of myself. So I then naturally, defend my view, divulging even more sensitive information just to continue trying to fit things in. This is how I view myself internally:
> 
> "Well, I can see why I would be Z, there's A, D, etc to support why I am Z."
> "What about X? That doesn't fit."
> ...


This is definitely an extraverted loop. Your loop example is missing.... what? What is the missing piece that would break the loop? The answer comes in determining what the initial question is... and what would be responsible for answering it. 

So, tell me... what is the fundamental question to be answered in your loop? What would the result look like and what would it entail? What would be required of you to solve it? 

((I was so tempted to just write a big thing about some random type that I thought you might be... try to make it convincing or at least valid-sounding if the listener lacked any subjective perspective... and see if you went along. Do you think you would have?))


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

((I was so tempted to just write a big thing about some random type that I thought you might be... try to make it convincing or at least valid-sounding if the listener lacked any subjective perspective... and see if you went along. Do you think you would have?))

_You're asking me this question because, if I were to play along, that would mean I played along due to "checking" you as a trusted source. Which would fulfill your Te -Se loop theory. Since I, as well as other members of PerC, have confirmed you to be reliable in typing/knowledgeable in MBTI, in the case of a Te - Se loop, I would take almost anything you say as being credible. Hypothetically speaking of course. Now, to answer your question, yes and no. If you did construct a convincing and plausible argument, I would maybe play along. However, it would be because of the argument, not because you're the one making it. The fact that you were the one making the argument would definitely make a difference, but I would not just blindly accept your words solely for that reason._

This is definitely an extraverted loop. Your loop example is missing.... what? What is the missing piece that would break the loop? The answer comes in determining what the initial question is... and what would be responsible for answering it. 

_Assuming I am in a loop. Hypothetically speaking, if I were in a loop, your guess would be as good as mine. To me, I guess what would break this "loop" would be to have enough people agree with me. To agree with my self image, which is rather fuzzy, I guess._

So, tell me... what is the fundamental question to be answered in your loop? What would the result look like and what would it entail? What would be required of you to solve it? 

_Do others agree with me? If they do, that means I am right. What is required is other people to tell me that I am right._

_I don't know if my answers to your questions are true to myself, but I can't really think of anything else to say. I'd rather provide an answer though then leave them unanswered._


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

TheLaughingMan said:


> ((I was so tempted to just write a big thing about some random type that I thought you might be... try to make it convincing or at least valid-sounding if the listener lacked any subjective perspective... and see if you went along. Do you think you would have?))
> 
> _You're asking me this question because, if I were to play along, that would mean I played along due to "checking" you as a trusted source. Which would fulfill your Te -Se loop theory. Since I, as well as other members of PerC, have confirmed you to be reliable in typing/knowledgeable in MBTI, in the case of a Te - Se loop, I would take almost anything you say as being credible. Hypothetically speaking of course. Now, to answer your question, yes and no. If you did construct a convincing and plausible argument, I would maybe play along. However, it would be because of the argument, not because you're the one making it. The fact that you were the one making the argument would definitely make a difference, but I would not just blindly accept your words solely for that reason._
> 
> ...


I understand, and I think your answers were excellent. I didn't care so much about the answers, however, so much as the process you'd have to go through to get to them.

ENTJ in an extraverted loop sounds pretty right on given what you've said. I could, of course, be wrong... so take all this with a grain of salt:

Some small insight I have on this is the feeling that people feel they've outgrown the ability to start from scratch on some of these functions. The more the person ages in the world, the more a looped function is going to not be given a chance to grow. As young children, we typically are given a great deal of patience and leeway in fumbling around and making mistakes... unless our developing functions and their behaviors are seen as bad or are punished in our environment. It is very unlikely that an adult will have a good environment to 'catch up' a function that has been looped for a length of time. 

Nevertheless, there is no other way about it. The functions MUST be developed and in their proper order. Regardless of what your type is - I think you should consider the possibility that you would be benefited by some strong subjectivity. Probably in the form of Ni. You'll need to see some actual positive results from this... so it may be unwise to do this with those who are likely to be critical, dismissive or otherwise inadvertently 'punishing' of these attempts. It might be best, if you need to seek some context, to engage in developing this part of yourself with those who will welcome your insights or, even better, with a very strong Ni who will be in a situation to act as a mentor. Function mentors are HUGE assets for anyone. It's like anything we learn... why reinvent masonry with every generation when the old can teach the new? It's just common sense... but with functions, it seems to be a crap-shoot unless we make a conscious effort to find a good mentor. I can't stress enough that this mentor has to have the function well-in-hand and (within reason) out of their ego. 

If you really are in a loop, this could be profoundly beneficial to you. Honestly, even if you aren't it will be. 

Either way, you really should consider how much what other people say affects you... as well as how much you compare yourself to them. The problem isn't that it's 'bad' but that doing so prevents you from actively engaging introverted functions. Failure to engage them means failure to develop them... and the situation never gets resolved. 

One thing I've seen suggested that might help is taking some time to really develop a vision of your future self (not perfect self, just future)... a well formed picture. Avoid extremes in either direction, hyperbole, and really try not to make the description heavily dependent on outside influences. Nevertheless the person should be a more whole version of yourself... someone you would like to be. For example:

"I'll be the head of my own company based on one of the many ideas I've come up with... wealthy and have friends who I am able to collaborate deeply with. We might even all live together and have a room where we get together and just think of new ideas to change the world - we'd be together all the time and it would be great. I'll let those chumps who were too wrapped up in their illusions of contentment and didn't want a part of it all to come by to see what they could have had with a little imagination." ((This is actually a very accurate paraphrase from an ENTP looper when I asked this)) Every single thing in there was extraverted and based on comparisons, etc. No good. This was a terrible vision of his future self and completely missed the point. Get a vision of who you will BE... on the inside. Don't make a list of platitudinous virtues. They won't be perfect if you made a real person. This person must be real... if they walked in the room at this very moment you would hardly look up because you didn't use extremes or hyperbole in creating them... and who they are would be neither particularly visible nor invisible to others. Once you have a really good concept of this person... you can use them as a counterbalance, or a focus, against the need for so much external validation. If you can't find a center in yourself... find one in your potential self. I cannot stress enough that this image cannot be and must not be a caricature that will defeat or conquer outside forces. This should be a sublime character that still has as much meaning - regardless of any environment. A person who could live as a priest in a sleepy village with non-memorable inhabitants and still be someone you would be proud to be and could honestly see yourself being.

Anyway.... yeah, just some thoughts.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

Your words are very motivational and I cannot thank you enough for sharing them. They shall be instilled into my mind from now on. With that being said, I accept ENTJ. In all the time I've researched MBTI, through PerC, I couldn't help but notice that people change their types constantly, sometimes to a new type, sometimes remaining undecided (Unknown Personality). With that being said, over time, I may do the same thing, but for now, ENTJ does make sense. Funny, I think I do have a pretty clear vision of my future self, one that is very ENTJ. That vision is to be a leader. To kick ass and make names. Yes, I meant make names. So I thank you again. Now it's time to get shit done, hehe.

The Laughing Man, Case Closed.


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