# MBTI "Caste System"



## Neobick (Sep 2, 2010)

This is as simple to explain as it is trivial.

Premise 1: People converse about type in this forum.
Premise 2: People understand their own perspective better than they understand others
Premise 3: There are mostly self-proclaimed introverted intuitives on this site.

Conclude away.


And basically this means that positive and negative comments are given and taken mostly from the dominant perspective, which means extroverted sensors do not get much understanding here. 

As we introverted intuitive people usually experience the same caste-system in real life, maybe this will be a good simulation for you extroverted sensors 

Joking aside, this is life. I wish it wasnt and I certainly wish the level of self-awareness in people would hinder such a "caste"-system to develop. Alas, no cigar.


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## Challenger (Jun 15, 2011)

NT> everything else.


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## Rhee (Aug 15, 2010)

Neobick said:


> As we introverted intuitive people usually experience the same caste-system in real life, maybe this will be a good simulation for you extroverted sensors


I'm curious. How do Introverted Intuitives experience the caste system IRL?

As an Introvert I know that I'm not as socially outgoing as an Extravert might be. However, I've never been singled out and treated as being inferior because of it. 

I've heard that Sensors constitute a larger part of the population but have never experienced any benefit from being in the statistical majority. I don't think being a Sensor has led me to have an easier life in any way. It's also impossible to discern each and every indiviudal's cognitive preference IRL for there to be a 'caste'. 

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

Neobick said:


> This is as simple to explain as it is trivial.
> 
> Premise 1: People converse about type in this forum.
> Premise 2: People understand their own perspective better than they understand others
> ...


Good points, afterall I only settled on INTP because it seemed closest to me as a person, as well as the one which came up most in tests, but I can never be sure I am not something else.

And if I turn out to be, on closer inspection, more like another type, then I would be quite happy with whatever it is, as long as it is somewhat accurate to me.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Rhee said:


> As an Introvert I know that I'm not as socially outgoing as an Extravert might be. However, I've never been singled out and treated as being inferior because of it.


_Really? *Never?*_
That is so hard to imagine I don't even...


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## Rhee (Aug 15, 2010)

lirulin said:


> _Really? *Never?*_
> That is so hard to imagine I don't even...


Why is that so hard to imagine? 

I've never been treated unfairly based on any aspect of my personality traits, including my introversion. 
Some of my extraverted friends wonder why I don't say much while I eat, but that's the most anyone has bothered me about. 
Is this not normal? :0


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## MissJordan (Dec 21, 2010)

Rhee said:


> Why is that so hard to imagine?
> 
> I've never been treated unfairly based on any aspect of my personality traits, including my introversion.
> Some of my extraverted friends wonder why I don't say much while I eat, but that's the most anyone has bothered me about.
> Is this not normal? :0


It was meant in regards to:



> As an Introvert I know that I'm not as socially outgoing as an Extravert might be


Which is... _Fairly _facepalm worthy....


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Rhee said:


> Why is that so hard to imagine?
> 
> I've never been treated unfairly based on any aspect of my personality traits, including my introversion.
> Some of my extraverted friends wonder why I don't say much while I eat, but that's the most anyone has bothered me about.
> Is this not normal? :0


Not in my world. I had teacher after teacher officiously trying to "make me sociable." I remember the school dances in junior high where everyone had the option to go to the library/computer lab instead (they were in afternoons) except me because I needed to be "socialised." That teacher was the worst. I've been called shy, boring, pathetic, creepy, and lectured endlessly on how I need to have more social skills and be friendly to people who are not my friends and never will be, when I was just being silent and doing my own thing. Most of the people I talk to have experienced things like this. 
Admittedly, lately, the hate is not so much about the I now, mostly the TJ. I mostly got ragged on for being introverted when I was a kid. Now I'm just told I'm a sociopath by people who don't know what the word means.

I don't know what really is normal, that's never been a strength of mine, I just know that you are the first person I ever encountered to have said that they _didn't _experience the judgement. (Then again, maybe I need to get out more - /jk)


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

dagnytaggart said:


> ENFPs are the lovable pixies everyone just adores.


Damn... Why are you ENFP's so popular? The competition frustrates me. :tongue:

Also, I would say INFP's are the least popular of the NF's. I figure they would be subjected to being stereotyped as emo because they lead with Fi.


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## Neobick (Sep 2, 2010)

Rhee said:


> I'm curious. How do Introverted Intuitives experience the caste system IRL?


I will make it short for you. I dont take being classified as an "anti-social nerd with the head in the cloud" as a positive statement. To describe the collective plight of introverted intuitives would be arrogant of me, but many people feel like they dont belong, like their are something missing in them, atleast that is my subjective experience. 



> As an Introvert I know that I'm not as socially outgoing as an Extravert might be. However, I've never been singled out and treated as being inferior because of it.


That is a subjective statement, you meant to say that you never *felt* that you been treated that way. 



> I've heard that Sensors constitute a larger part of the population but have never experienced any benefit from being in the statistical majority. I don't think being a Sensor has led me to have an easier life in any way. It's also impossible to discern each and every indiviudal's cognitive preference IRL for there to be a 'caste'.


I do think that being an intuitive make me less understood by people in general, like an extroverted sensor probably feel they are less understood on this site. That is because your perspective on things are far away from the groups dominant one. Not to say all inxx feel like outcasts or like pariahs, most of us probably just feel that our perspective on things are foreign.

The caste-system talked about here is no formal laws or anything close to that, its just a percieved effect of having a different perspective on things as opposed to the dominant one in the setting you currently are interacting in. 

Therefore OP argue that the form of his percieved caste-system on PC is as previously read by posters in this thread(hopefully). Likewise my percieved caste-system IRL are stated in the post you quoted. 

Are you with me?


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

susurration said:


> Based on peoples attitudes towards type, I think it would be more like this;
> 
> intj > intp > entj > entp
> 
> ...


Fuck those ESTPs! ISTP ALL THE WAY BABY!


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## Rhee (Aug 15, 2010)

lirulin said:


> I remember the school dances in junior high where everyone had the option to go to the library/computer lab instead (they were in afternoons) except me because I needed to be "socialised." That teacher was the worst. I've been called shy, boring, pathetic, creepy, and lectured endlessly on how I need to have more social skills and be friendly to people who are not my friends and never will be, when I was just being silent and doing my own thing... Admittedly, lately, the hate is not so much about the I now, mostly the TJ. I mostly got ragged on for being introverted when I was a kid. Now I'm just told I'm a sociopath by people who don't know what the word means.


That's just wrong. You didn't deserve to have other people force their perceived 'ideal traits' onto you. 

I'm guessing different social expectations and how aggressively those are pushed onto young adults play a role here. My parents didn't mind the fact that I only had a few friends growing up. The teachers left me to do whatever I wished as long as I continued getting the grades I needed to get into a good college. [Insert cynicism on East Asian education here.]

Thanks for relating your experience. I would have suffered a lot of indignity and pain had I been in the same situation. 





MisterJordan said:


> It was meant in regards to:
> 
> Which is... _Fairly _facepalm worthy....


I'm confused. I'm aware of the definition of introversion and the fact that it doesn't correlate to shyness, if that's what you meant to say. I implied that I, as an Introvert, am not as outgoing as some Extraverts because I see it as one visibly observable characteristic that sets us apart.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

dagnytaggart said:


> *NFs: INFP > ENFP > INFJ > ENFJ*
> The INFPs all congregate, and wallow in how "misunderstood" they are, and how "unique" they are (in exactly the same way as each other...). *ENFPs are the lovable pixies everyone just adores. Like candy for the world, fun, but somehow they're not "annoying and airheaded" like ESFPs. They're just "bubbly and vivacious". Oh, and "open minded". * The NTs love 'em. INFJs are seen as the quiet, all-benevolent, deeeeep prophets. Very self-sacrificing and "wise". ENFJs don't really get much discussion around here, but they're considered part of the NF clique, so they're innocent by association.
> 
> 
> ...


I chuckled because that's the impression people like to give about ESFPs. 

In all honesty typist people, get over yourselves, you're not that great. You may claim you're not being a typist but clearly you are when you shuck obnoxious people to the side as ESFP and then cutesy pixie ones as ENFP. That's a generalization. This is a wild idea, intuitives can and will be just annoying as much as any sensors.


I also think NTs are on top of the caste like @niss had put them at.


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## Rhee (Aug 15, 2010)

Neobick said:


> I will make it short for you. I dont take being classified as an "anti-social nerd with the head in the cloud" as a positive statement. To describe the collective plight of introverted intuitives would be arrogant of me, but many people feel like they dont belong, like their are something missing in them, atleast that is my subjective experience.
> 
> That is a subjective statement, you meant to say that you never *felt* that you been treated that way.


I guess different subjective experiences, even when they contradict each other, are absolute truths to the respective individuals involved. I have no doubt that your personal experience and words carry weight. 





Neobick said:


> I do think that being an intuitive make me less understood by people in general, like an extroverted sensor probably feel they are less understood on this site. That is because the your perspective on things are far away from the groups dominant one. Not to say all inxx feel like outcast or like pariahs, most of us probably just feel that our perspective on things are foreign.
> The caste-system talked about here is no formal laws or anything close to that, its just a percieved effect of having a different perspective on things as opposed to the dominant one in the setting you currently are interacting in.


It's my take that it's inevitably difficult for an individual to be truly understood by others. I recall Richard Dawkins saying something about the 'innate loneliness' of being a separate biological entity from others. We're incapable of true communication because each of us are permanently trapped in an individual body and mind. 

I've never had the desire to be understood by people in general, nor an expectation that such a thing would be possible. I only wished to be accepted as who I am to those few who are close to me while offering the same in return. I have mostly been lucky in that aspect, though I've also been hurt a few times. I can imagine the frustration that comes from not having your thoughts be accepted by a group.

I took the word 'caste' in the OP to be a "type hierarchy" observed within these forums. When I read your post about a 'reverse caste system IRL', I pictured a hierarchy in which the statistically dominant SJs were perceived to be superior to all others "just because of their personality type." I got stumped because that doesn't happen IRL. 

Now that you've explained your definition of 'caste' and its effects (having a perspective that is contrary to the dominant one in society and suffering for it), I understand where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to post a response, I appreciate it.


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

Everyone knows ESTPs are the top of the food chain, just sayin'.

and from my beloved perspective, ENFPs totally outrule INFPs.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Rhee said:


> That's just wrong. You didn't deserve to have other people force their perceived 'ideal traits' onto you.
> 
> I'm guessing different social expectations and how aggressively those are pushed onto young adults play a role here. My parents didn't mind the fact that I only had a few friends growing up. The teachers left me to do whatever I wished as long as I continued getting the grades I needed to get into a good college. [Insert cynicism on East Asian education here.]
> 
> Thanks for relating your experience. I would have suffered a lot of indignity and pain had I been in the same situation.


 It's definitely a different experience. I honestly took it for granted that most Is heard that kind of judgement at least _sometimes_. It's good to know it isn't as constant as I absent-mindedly assumed it was. (This isn't to say I don't know it can happen the other way around too). Although cultures would be different - I suspect western values are more pro-E than asian ones, speaking very generally, for one.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

@OP: I laughed at this... sadly enough because you captured a lot of the typical prejudice involved. Nicely done.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Fizz said:


> I also think NTs are on top of the caste like @niss had put them at.


Considering how constantly people are trying to drag us down, that may well be true in terms of perceptions. I think, like many of our type, I experience more of this "putting us in our place" attempts than any supposed benefits from being at the top of the food chain, as it were, so from the inside it seems much less like being on top, fwiw.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Considering how constantly people are trying to drag us down, that may well be true in terms of perceptions. I think, like many of our type, I experience more of this "putting us in our place" attempts than any supposed benefits from being at the top of the food chain, as it were, so from the inside it seems much less like being on top, fwiw.


Odd as it may sound, I'm not always well-received either - as a female ESTJ. In elementary school, I practically had no friends because I hadn't learned to tone down my assertiveness and temper. And then from then on, no matter how much I think I've softened my demeanor, I was always faced with the double-standards that permeate this world.

A guy can be assertive, I was just a bitch who didn't know her place.
A guy can be blunt and honest, I was just "cruel".
A guy can step in and take control of a project when no one's stepping up, I'm just a bitch (what a catch-all!) with horrid audacity
A guy can separate mind from emotions, I'm just a coldhearted sociopath.

etc etc. I really tried to "act like a girl" (aka douse everyone with flattery, not seem too assertive) and I gave up, I can't do it. Moreover, I don't want to. I just filed down the rough edges, and if people want to nitpick and call me Satan just because I didn't cry at the end of Marley & Me, let them. All I care about is my career and my own goals, which have nothing to do with people. 

Though 90% of my friends are guys...so maybe I should work on getting more girlfriends. If just for the fashion soundboard!


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## kittychris07 (Jun 15, 2010)

Should people just have to suck it up though if they are being picked on because their so-called traits are undesireable? 

I mean I sometimes have been targeted for my ISFJ-ness. I've had to deal with my fair share of criticism because people don't understand me and/or overidealize the way that they are. I've been told I don't relate to people's emotions and that I don't understand mine (I think as a result of not quite behaving as some of my friends would expect me to act). I've been told that introverts are only introverts because they lack social skills. I've been told many other things by people who don't understand introverted sensing. 

Even though I've had to endure this, I do realize that I'm just going to have to behave the way that people expect me to behave, or not care about their opinion. If I don't get along with someone at work just because they have stereotypical biases against me for being an ISFJ, I'm not exempted from making efforts to get along with that person. If that means finding ways to deal with other people's criticisms of me and making actions to change the way I come across to people, then I have to do it, no matter how unfair the criticisms are. If I have to be a chameleon to get along with others (even if it's not the real me), then I just need to suck it up and do it. 

I don't think I'm going to be able to change people's perceptions about humanity, or change their perceptions of other people. I hope that my friends will make efforts to accept me for who I am because they sometimes do make criticisms that I think are rediculous. But I'm just going to have to learn to ignore them and tell myself that I have the right to be myself. In some cases I'll also have to make more efforts to act better around them so that I'm acceptable.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

lirulin said:


> Considering how constantly people are trying to drag us down, that may well be true in terms of perceptions. I think, like many of our type, I experience more of this "putting us in our place" attempts than any supposed benefits from being at the top of the food chain, as it were, so from the inside it seems much less like being on top, fwiw.


I always feel like people try to prove something by trying show us how "incorrect" we are about something. Like we're not flawed human beings ourselves.


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## RyRyMini (Apr 12, 2010)

@_dagnytaggart_ - I think I love you. 

This is my interpretation of the PC caste system. *It doesn't reflect my true feelings*, but those that I've read and come across on this forum in a rather high volume. Not in order of temperament, because I don't personally place a lot of weight on them.

*Top Tier*: ENFP, INTP, INFJ, INFP
ENFPs are at the top due to the fact that I don't think I've ever seen much criticism towards them. Their sporadic and understanding nature has them as the type that's changed most people's lives on this site. INTPs win in volume and their interpretation of logic. They're seen as coldhearted, but it's refreshing to the masses of NFs on this site. INFJ comes next due to their ability to understand people and help them advance in life without using the manipulation that their extroverted sides are slammed for. INFPs come in fourth for this tier because they have such "deep" emotions. They can get whiny, however, which tends to annoy the other temperaments and is why they fell to last in this tier.

*Second Tier*: INTJ, ENTP, ENTJ, ISTP
INTJs are revered as the scientists and have problem solving skills that make most of the types envious. Only they're not extroverted so they are in turn less annoying about it. ENTPs are spontaneous and can also hold conversations that are meaningful to most on this forum, less domineering than the ENTJs who fall behind them. ISTP comes in fourth in this tier because they're loved by the NFs (particularly ENFPs) and valued for their blunt skills in decoding relationship problems..have you seen the amount of relationship threads in their section? They're essentially the token "strong, silent type." 

*Third Tier:* ENFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ISTJ
ENFJs have fallen from NF grace due to the fact that supposedly know how to use people's emotions against them in order to advance their personal needs. In fact, they were voted as the most manipulative type in a forum poll. ESTPs don't care about their position on this ranking, nor about your feelings and aren't afraid to tell you. A lot of people seem to appreciate that. ISFPs are the shallow INFPs, caught up in frivolous, "real world" pursuits. Easy enough to ignore, and often an afterthought for most. ISTJs are treated in the same fashion as ISTPs, only their less than glamorous form of sensing (Si) makes them not as desirable and caught on tradition. 

*Bottom Tier:* ISFJ, ESFP, ESTJ, ESFJ
ISFJs are extremely nice to all types, and won't push back too hard even if you push your views onto them. Luckily, they're seen as intelligent, unlike the ESFPs who are seen as extremely dumb. Their use of Fi is questioned as if they survive using only Se, jumping into one careless situation after another. People recognize that ESTJs make the world turn, but they're not innovative enough and simply boring and one tracked. ESFJs lack the intuition to emotionally manipulate you like the ENFJ, which essentially just makes them stubborn and annoying. Many PC members are bitter children of (potentially mistyped) ESXJs. 



*Again, not my true feelings, but a summary of those that I have read.*


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## Kelly617 (May 25, 2011)

I really haven't noticed a type hierarchy. The worst I've seen is the ENTP's taking the mick out of the ISFJ's...but then, I think the ENTP's would take the mick out of anyone if their fancy was so tickled. XD

I haven't been around for very long, though. Maybe I just haven't run into it yet?


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## SPtheGhost (Apr 26, 2010)

interesting ...


o and youre right.....i do love me some ENFP's


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

You know I want to shit on ENFPs, but I've dated like 3.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I always feel like people try to prove something by trying show us how "incorrect" we are about something. Like we're not flawed human beings ourselves.


No, you're wrong. It's nothing like that.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

RyRyMini said:


> Third Tier:ENFJ, ESTP, ISFP, ISTJ
> ENFJs have fallen from NF grace due to the fact that supposedly know how to use people's emotions against them in order to advance their personal needs. In fact, they were voted as the most manipulative type in a forum poll. *ESTPs don't care about their position on this ranking, nor about your feelings and aren't afraid to tell you. A lot of people seem to appreciate that.* ISFPs are the shallow INFPs, caught up in frivolous, "real world" pursuits. Easy enough to ignore, and often an afterthought for most. ISTJs are treated in the same fashion as ISTPs, only their less than glamorous form of sensing (Si) makes them not as desirable and caught on tradition.


Gasp! How did you knooooow?! Awww you know me so well :blushed:



But somehow I cared enough to make this post :dry:


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

RyRyMini said:


> ISTP comes in fourth in this tier because they're loved by the NFs (particularly ENFPs) and valued for their blunt skills in decoding relationship problems..have you seen the amount of relationship threads in their section? They're essentially the token "strong, silent type."


brilliant observation, Ryry! I think ENFPs love everyone...they're practically in every subforum i've been to. We even have our own resident ENFP... @_DayDreamerx_


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Fizz said:


> No, you're wrong. It's nothing like that.


I honestly dont know whether the trollface is directed at me, or if it's directed at your comment which is intended to be sarcasm.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I honestly dont know whether the trollface is directed at me, or if it's directed at your comment which is intended to be sarcasm.


The latter. I'm capable of feats of sarcasm...sometimes.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Just my 2 cents ... I was very misunderstanding of the ENFP's when I first came on here because of what transpired b/w myself and my ex. But so far, it's been their zest for life and positive thinking that has had some of the best influence on me. The INFP's and INFJ's are great too. 

But when it comes to talk about anything other than just feelings and emotions, I tend to get along decently well with the ESTJ's, ENTP's and INTP's as well. 

The only people I've had trouble with are trolls [which are few and far between]. Overall, I've found PerC to be a pretty friendly place. The people here are all very accepting and since we're all here primarily looking for knowledge or self-growth, then we have those two things in common which everybody can agree on.


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## ProfessorLiver (Mar 19, 2011)

Because we are brilliant, respectful and pioneers of everything important. It's vital that you udnerstand how very much better than you we are.

And also, I'd put ENTPs up higher, because the fact that they get called out just means that more people know an ENTP, which is statisically more likely, as INTPs make up ~<1% of the population, and INTJs make up ~2%, while ENTPs make up ~4%; more than either of the former types, and they're Extraverted, so it's more likely a person knows an ENTP than an INTP. If INTPs were less rare, and known by more people, I assure you they would be called out just as much, so being called out isn't really an inherent typological trait, and should probably be disregarded.


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## ozu (Apr 28, 2011)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> You know I want to shit on ENFPs, but I've dated like 3.


ENFPs often annoy me, but no one understands me better.

Anyway I'm not sure that "caste system" is as accurate a term as "disposition toward spending a whole grip of time on the internet." If there's a type hierarchy in actual society, and I would argue there usually is, the preference would be greatly dependent on the cultural context of that society.


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## ozu (Apr 28, 2011)

> ISTJs are treated in the same fashion as ISTPs, only their less than glamorous form of sensing (Si) makes them not as desirable and caught on tradition.


Thanks for this write-up, it's wonderfully incisive, frank, clever, and truthful.


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

Fizz said:


> Fuck those ESTPs! ISTP ALL THE WAY BABY!


I'll make a new caste system and put Fizz up the top 

estps' don't need reppin' cause they are too sexy to be in a caste system (hopefully I covered my typo ass there).

It took me several years of being on these forums to notice the differences in perception of types.... it's interesting how types view their own type influences how other types see them. It's also interesting how well represented types shape perception too.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> Like we're not flawed human beings ourselves.


I get the impression a lot of people are unaware that *we actually know this,* kthx.
Evidently they don't spend much time in our forum.

It's rather disconcerting to be trying to be neutral/normal surrounded by people making power plays, putting one down, trying to bring themselves up...and yet to be blamed for arrogance, when they are...what? Being an INTJ is a mindfuck sometimes. And I agree with @dagnytaggart that double standards can definitely play a role in this too. For some reason angry guys like to talk shit about putting me in my place as a female and all that rot whenever I piss them off. Instant credibility loss ftw.

In general I agree with @RyRyMini's assessment, not that I am the best person to ask about social castes or anything, (with, of course, the previously stated caveat in place of how status can be experienced from the inside - resentment/hate &c). I suspect INFPs also don't _experience _their status as being as high as he put it, but I think it makes sense in terms of the dynamics of the forum generally. It may well be true of other types as well, this discontinuity between perceived and actual status. I think some experiments are ongoing...:wink: I'm not sure I would put ENTPs so high, as they tend to be treated a lot of the time as trolls, but then again, they are not treated as nonentities like some types, so maybe.

I think his also tends to reflect - though not exactly mirror - the number of posters per type. The more active forums seem to cluster at the top, the deader ones at the bottom. Which makes sense, really.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

I found this critique of the MBTI on Google a few weeks ago. Here it is:



> We can see that it is dead easy to tell which one of these somebody belongs to. The delightful thing about Myers-Briggs is how easy it is to classify people - one can just talk to someone for a few hours, and tell fairly quickly which of the above categories they fall into. What is interesting is the natural roles each type tends to play. It is important for any manager, government official, parent or lover to be thoroughly grounded in all aspects of the Myers-Briggss personality system. From a management perspective, one can create harmonious working groups of people by considering the proper station of each type, and in one's personal life one can easily predict the behaviour of others.
> It is such a wonderful method of prescribing and boxing in the behaviour of human beings, that properly armed with the knowledge and a suitable INTP to do the mathematical grunt work one can easily predict and control the behaviour of large numbers of people. Although we should focus on using Myers-Briggss tests for this, we should also incorporate related disciplines such as Chinese astrology (not fake Western astrology), numerology and graphology. It seems to me that we should encourage our government, companies and families to reorganise all social activity on the basis of Myers-Briggs personality types. So much unhappiness is caused because people don't get along with each other, because sensitive and brilliant FP's are paired with callous and judgemental TJ's, or nurturing, affirmitive FJ's with cold, mechanical TP's. All personality types have a natural partner, and tend to get on well with some other personality types and less well with others. All the strife in our society could be solved at a stroke if everyone knew their own type, and if everyone was nurtured and engaged with the right people to do the right job and marry the right person, guided by the omniscience of some centralised personality database. We could forge a new and better society, and so easily!
> Here I present a schema for how things should be organised, and where every personality type should be placed in the grand scheme.
> *At the bottom - INTP, INTJ.* Here we should have all the INT's - that is to say, the iNtuitive Thinkers, be they judging or perceiving. These types tend to care very little about other human beings, as they value logic and are very cold. They live in thir own mathematical world, removed from all human concerns. The INTPs are the lowest of the low, and can also be quite dangerous. They are best left to work on simple tasks that all the other types hate, as they have very high boredom thresholds and can be left to work on boring columns of figures, or program computers, or work on assembly lines, without any real personal problems. They enjoy being ordered around and told what to do, and as long as their orders don't involve interacting with other people they are very happy. These types are very autistic in nature, and like most _idiot savants_ they can sometimes show a remarkable facility for impressive but ultimately useless tasks, such as typesetting in TeX or memorising Star Trek dialogue. These types tend to look quite thin and pasty, and take little care over their personal appearance. They often have small, peering eyes and tend to be quite short and ugly. Spots are common. They do not make suitable romantic mates for anyone, and are really best kept away from the opposite sex.
> ...


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Psychosmurf said:


> I found this critique of the MBTI on Google a few weeks ago. Here it is:


Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to a) put ENTPs and ENTJs in as the role of police officers? That's asking for a police state. Not to mention, I've never met an ENTP that actually likes authority. b) ESTP/ESTJ ruling class? We have that now, how well is that going for us? c) ISFJ, ISFP scientists? seriously?

This is the dumbest goddamn social hierarchy I've ever witnessed. Unless it's entirely satire, then good job.


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## Fizz (Nov 13, 2010)

susurration said:


> I'll make a new caste system and put Fizz up the top
> 
> estps' don't need reppin' cause they are too sexy to be in a caste system (hopefully I covered my typo ass there).
> 
> It took me several years of being on these forums to notice the differences in perception of types.... it's interesting how types view their own type influences how other types see them. It's also interesting how well represented types shape perception too.


I think overall the general perception of ESTPs is negative. We're seen as untrustworthy scoundrels without a lick of intelligence. I think that's why some people want me to change my type to something else because I'm just so damned sexy and amazing. I know, I know, I'm being _modest_. I should really express how others feel about me but this site cannot handle the _love_.


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## etherealuntouaswithin (Dec 7, 2010)

Eh,ESFP's are the shit.

Nuff said.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> Understandably so. INTJs realize how irrational and stupid people can be. ENTPs realize how close minded and ignorant everyone is. Sort of comes with the territory.


But it's not rational to make judgments on individuals' intelligence without testing them. *And humans are fundamentally "irrational".* What are we but animals, after all. Take any logical reason, and it can be broken down (perhaps it needs to be "reduced" multiple times) to a basic emotional/primitive desire.

Decision: I need to fire this guy
Reason: He's a liability --> I want the company to succeed --> I want to feel fulfilled (ROOT EMOTION) or I want to make money --> I want to be wealthy --> I want to enjoy the mo---(STOP. ROOT EMOTION)

So it's not so much that people are rational or irrational, but how many degrees do you have to break down their initial reason before you get to the primitive emotion.

People that you might call "irrational" might simply break down their "reasons" with a finer-toothed comb than you do -- so to you, their 10 degrees of reduction to irrationality might seem like 1 hop -- to the primitive desire. Then you conclude that they're utterly ruled by their reptilian brain. You're missing the complexity the individual's thinking.

Sorry, that made no sense. It does in my head at least. lol

What I'm trying to say is, don't underestimate the complexity of the person's reasoning. For example, I dress well and groom myself not to be loved (1 hop), but because I expect this behavior to encourage a chain of events (centering around professional success and money) that ultimately yield me to my emotional desire (37 degrees of reduction, for example). 

EDIT: I'm not referring to you per se, just certain arrogant NTs (unless you personally espouse these beliefs too).


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

dagnytaggart said:


> But it's not rational to make judgments on individuals' intelligence without testing them. *And humans are fundamentally "irrational".* What are we but animals, after all. Take any logical reason, and it can be broken down (perhaps it needs to be "reduced" multiple times) to a basic emotional/primitive desire.
> 
> Decision: I need to fire this guy
> Reason: He's a liability --> I want the company to succeed --> I want to feel fulfilled (ROOT EMOTION) or I want to make money --> I want to be wealthy --> I want to enjoy the mo---(STOP. ROOT EMOTION)
> ...


the ironic thing about us is that though we're the "rationalists" most of our conclusions are derived from our intuition. We sort of just "know" things about people without much of an understanding why, then we rationalize it afterwards. But I'm usually pretty accurate with my assessments of people.

Also, it really doesn't matter what the inner rationale behind a person's actions are if I can still predict them to high accuracy with my own thoughts. That might be a Ti vs Te thing though, so I wont assume that INTJs feel similar.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> the ironic thing about us is that though we're the "rationalists" most of our conclusions are derived from our intuition. We sort of just "know" things about people without much of an understanding why, then we rationalize it afterwards. But I'm usually pretty accurate with my assessments of people.
> 
> Also, it really doesn't matter what the inner rationale behind a person's actions are if I can still predict them to high accuracy with my own thoughts. That might be a Ti vs Te thing though, so I wont assume that INTJs feel similar.


To me, results are indeed what matters. However, insofar as judging intelligence via interaction, that's fine if you're astute enough to predict people's actions, but that speaks more praise about your perception than criticism about their lack of complex reasoning or intelligence.

I'd say the only reason N doesn't contradict the existence of T is because T's not about how you get your information, it's about _what_ decision you make. N bases decision *by* emotion, F makes decisions *for* emotion.

EDIT: Not really intending to nag at you by the way, I've been meaning to vent about this for a while, and you're just happening to get the brunt of it. xD


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

dagnytaggart said:


> To me, results are indeed what matters. However, insofar as judging intelligence via interaction, that's fine if you're astute enough to predict people's actions, but that speaks more praise about your perception than criticism about their lack of complex reasoning or intelligence.
> 
> I'd say the only reason N doesn't contradict the existence of T is because T's not about how you get your information, it's about _what_ decision you make. N bases decision *by* emotion, F makes decisions *for* emotion.
> 
> EDIT: Not really intending to nag at you by the way, I've been meaning to vent about this for a while, and you're just happening to get the brunt of it. xD


Well in that sense, if our perception is at a higher level than others from our perspective people are "dull". It's not so much that they're actually stupid they're just predictable which bores us. Especially when they're predictable in a way that doesn't yield the best results.


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## dagnytaggart (Jun 6, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> Well in that sense, if our perception is at a higher level than others from our perspective people are "dull". It's not so much that they're actually stupid they're just predictable which bores us. Especially when they're predictable in a way that doesn't yield the best results.


First, intelligence is based on more than just astuteness. And also, because you can't read people's minds, you can't gauge how astute anyone else is - they may not act on their perceptions or even vocalize them. So not only do you not know how their perception works, you can't really put a label on your own since it's all relative, and you can't compare yours to anyone's.

Predictability is a whole other can of worms!  You're an ENTP, so of course you need more "bounciness" in your life than most. ;D


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## VII (Jun 13, 2011)

I don't think anyone should be too harsh, Its just a spitball theory on the forum.
He's probably right, introverts are more likely to be active users, hence introverts are more revered. 

I don't know how relevant this is to the thread but if you Look up "introvert" on urbandictionary.com You'll observe a very sympathetic, misunderstood light being shed on the introverts. While looking up "extrovert" garners insane amount of hostility. 

Introversion vs Extroversion according to pretend Psychology experts, courtesy of urbandictionary.
Keep in mind, the website is filled with teen angst and pseudo intellect.
*Extrovert	442 up, 105 down*
buy extrovert mugs, tshirts and magnets
1. A person who gets drunk, has sex, and goes to parties ALL THE TIME. 

2. A person who is rude, loud, obnoxious, aggressive, and brutish. 

3. A person who completely and totally loses their sense of self when they're alone for even a minute. 

4. A person who has no mind, and rarely thinks about anything other than when his next group encounter will occur. 

5. A person who hates you and think's you're inferior for not being just like them. 

6. A person who has NO idea how his actions affect others. And if he does, he doesn't care. 

7. Useless hunk of flesh whose only purpose is to take up valuble space. A plague upon any society. The world would be much more peaceful and serene without them.
The drunken partygoers in any college are all extroverts. These people will most likely end up working dead end factory jobs while the smart, hard working introverts will end up making 6 digits a year.

*introvert	649 up, 36 down*
buy introvert mugs, tshirts and magnets
A very broad term that is misunderstood, but an "introvert" may contain one or more of these qualities. It pretty much comes down to choice however. 

One who focuses on the inner world of thoughts and ideas. 

One who gains energy from alone time, one who thinks before they speak.
"Look, I like hanging out with you, but you're making me tired ok? I'm an introvert!"

*Crappy but kinda relevant example of how the internet, in general, values introverts*


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## Moss Icon (Mar 29, 2011)

dagnytaggart said:


> The INFPs all congregate, and wallow in how "misunderstood" they are, and how "unique" they are



Man, you totally don't get what it's like to be an INFP. We are not all like that. You don't understand me at all. I feel so misunderstood. Does any get me...!? I'm gonna go brood over that for a while....


:wink:



Heh, so yeah. I think the reason such 'castes' exist here is cos it's an almost perfect inversion of real life. In the real world it's the SJs at the top and the NF being shat on so some of us, I guess, feel the online forum world, largely inhabited by NFs and NTs, is the place to bite back. The bigger the divergence in reality, the more it's brought up here and the S/N divide is certainly the trait with the highest disparity, thus the most bitterly argued over on here. It's a sensors' world out there and we Ns (unless we're brilliant enough to achieve some degree of fame of renown) tend to get shafted.

It's no excuse, though, for divisive talk. We all utilise all 8 variables, just to different degrees, and there are pros and cons to all of them. I wish people would stop trying to validate their own modus operandi by crapping on other peoples'.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> INTJs are definitely the most arrogant of the NTs. A lot of our cockiness is facetious, they're never joking about it.


Speak for yourself. :tongue:
Nobody gets Ni humour...INTJs are plenty facetious, the rest of the time unaware of or annoyed by various validation crap thingies. Not trying to be above anyone, necessarily, though any individual may do so, just not defining themselves in relation to them but instead in relation to more external/objective/Te type measures rather than people.

It's funny how often INTJs are described as having no awareness of social protocols - and yet it is assumed violating them is always a deliberate attempt to look better than others. Inconsistency ftw.



dagnytaggart said:


> I do notice that with both ENTPs and INTJs, some of them tend to run around talking about how stupid/gullible/dull most people are.


Well, most people_ are._
Thing is, I know a lot of people who agree, who also think very badly of themselves. It is not automatically comparative. Moreso, sometimes, that it is very easy to see problems. Works on yourself too, if you look at yourself. Not everyone does, granted, but just seeing flaws doesn't make a person arrogant. I've always found it obnoxiously easy to see flaws - well obnoxious to others, as a side effect of that is I don't get my panties in a bunch because I see flaws. They are just normal reality. Meh. Doesn't lead to poisonous hate or a wankfest to my brain & what-have-you. (I make no promises, however, about adolescence. Most people are pricks then. I admit I was no charmer, though not often as bad as I seemed either.)


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

Yeah, Mr. whateveryourusername, I, unlike you, don't believe INTJs to be the most arrogant NTs.
And refuse to slap 'most arrogant' label on a type to begin with.
I am, however, aware that I am perceived as arrogant a lot of the time, but then again, 99% of the time, I am fucking around.
Which people usually have trouble telling, and hence the rep.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

Kr3m1in said:


> Yeah, Mr. whateveryourusername, I, unlike you, don't believe INTJs to be the most arrogant NTs.
> And refuse to slap 'most arrogant' label on a type to begin with.
> I am, however, aware that I am perceived as arrogant a lot of the time, but then again, 99% of the time, I am fucking around.
> Which people usually have trouble telling, and hence the rep.


I was totally joking btw. And it's Mr.[47 in roman numerals] 

I also fuck around a lot, and I get called arrogant almost daily. Here's the issue. If you joke about how awesome you are, and you actually are awesome people tend to call you arrogant. If you suck and you're into yourself, you get called a douche and people think you're full of yourself and no one likes you. So take that as you will.


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## Kr3m1in (Jan 16, 2011)

Too lazy to look up your exact Roman numerals, little darling.

Yeah this is like being miss America and therefore calling yourself miss America versus looking like you've been hit repeatedly on the face with a frying pan and calling yourself miss America.

The latter is pretty sad, really. Sure we've all seen it around PerC.Or something.


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## DayDreamerx (Nov 15, 2010)

Kayness said:


> brilliant observation, Ryry! I think ENFPs love everyone...they're practically in every subforum i've been to. We even have our own resident ENFP... @_DayDreamerx_


HAHAHAAH! YOU KNOW IT~

i've been on _vacation_ and _away from home_ a lot lately though :'(
But coming from an ENFP...even though my extroversion levels have dropped, ENFPs do and cant help but genuinely love people. People make us happy. you are inspiring! you hold something unique as an separate individual that makes you different from everybody else. I love getting know that part of a person or figuring out what that is...most definitely when it comes to ISFPs  though its a hassle on here lmao. the art of getting to know people is an adventure & something special that shouldn't be taken for granted. who you are is delicate.


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## ytisibrsk (May 24, 2011)

Maybe it's my imagination or memory playin tricks but I think the ISFPs get thanked, relative to the number of their posts, pretty darn little. Nobody seems to care. And some groups (ISTJs and ENFPs come to mind) tend to thank each other in a little clusterthingy. It'd be interesting to count up which mbti type was most likely to thank someone of another type. This would be the least "typist" type. But I can't be bothered. I can gulp down quite a bit of info without chewing, but that would be beyond me. Maybe some INTPs could get on this lol

Interesting thread!


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## athenasgriffin (Jul 15, 2011)

I've been here for two days and I can already see there is a caste system here. I can't agree with any one definition of what exactly the caste system is.

Frankly, it is not surprising. Anywhere human beings congregate they will judge and type each other, placing one category as superior to another. It is in our very nature. Inclusion/exclusion is the way we make friends. It is instinctive.

It is also not surprising that IN's would be more popular here than in real life. We are the most likely to be interested in this sort of self-knowledge.

And finally, it is kind of nice to not be a part of the out-group for a change. You may as well admit it, false outrage aside.

_Outrage at me. You know you want to._


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