# xNTP & affection



## bluenile (Jun 22, 2009)

NTs, would love your love advice. Forgive my rambly, NF rambling 

I am in a fairly new relationship with an xNTP that so far has been going really well except for one thing: I'm often not convinced he really likes me. Intellectually, rationally, I know he is serious about me, sees a future in the long term, and we do get on really, really well. His actions all say quite loudly that he cares for me a lot, but I need or perhaps have just gotten used to a more open and warm style of expressing affection than he apparently has. 

What's difficult for me to reconcile is that in public, he is 100% an ENTP--hilarious, witty, gregarious, spontaneous, charming, expansive, always one of the poles at a dinner party, a clown, a total performer (*everyone loves him*), but in private, he is incredibly reserved and formal--almost aloof. Too polite. I wish that he would tease me more in private, be a bit more of his irreverent, totally out there self, but for some reason it seems he only turns on the charm if he has an audience. He seems like a classic ENTP in the social and work worlds, and an INTP at home.

When it's just me and him, he is most animated when we are either having sex or having these intense intellectual conversations. I love both, but I wish that there was some lovey-dovey, simmering medium in between where we could exist most of the time--if it's there, it's so subtle it's completely over my head. I sometimes think he feels closest to me when he's helping me troubleshoot a for loop.

My ex is an ENTP, and although I like this new guy much more, I can't help but miss my ex's incredibly romantic, open, expressive nature. He completely swept me off my feet and even though everything else was wrong about the relationship, it was easy to fall head over heels. I'm not saying head over heels is the right model for falling in love, but at the beginning of all my relationships there has been some phase of "can't get enough of you," at least at the beginning.

What this new guy and I have now seems like the beginnings of a much saner, quieter, more stable relationship, but my main fear is that I will never be able to fall in love with this guy. There have been these incredible moments when he's let me see the depth of his affection for me, but the vast majority of the time he's Mr. Darcy, without the Colin Firth smoldering. It's not that I feel insecure in the relationship, it's that except for those rare moments of expressive feeling, which come once every two or three weeks, my heart is completely untouched. I want so badly for him to be the guy because I've never met a more generous, kind, brilliant, awesome, creative dynamic person in my life who shares my values, aspirations, and way of wanting to be in the world. Plus, he's totally hot. But again, there's very, very rarely any heart skipping beats or butterflies on my part.

Perhaps the most disconcerting thing about our dynamic is that I find myself being flatter and less expressive than I would be otherwise (hence my heart feeling totally untouched). I tend to meet everyone where they are (totally unconscious) and very easily adopt the communication style, mannerisms, vocabulary of whomever I'm around. We might feel exactly the same level of intensity for each other, but exist in totally different keys that his high note doesn't even register on mine.

Also, he's more than a decade older than me (I'm in my late twenties). I can't help but wonder if part of this is his having been around the block, relationship-wise, far more times than me.

Before we got together, he had been interested in me for a few years and in his head, he had been putting on the moves the whole time and I had been repeatedly shooting him down. In reality, his "moves" were so subtle it never once crossed my mind he felt anything but mild friendship for me. It wasn't until he threw down the gauntlet (after a few friends convinced him to dial it up because I probably had absolutely no clue) that anything happened. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is just how he rolls.

Do I give this more time? Do I adjust my expectations? Do I take more of the lead and be more demonstrative of my affection? Being an INFJ, I'm used to guys coaxing me out of my shell. I've never been in the reverse position. Or maybe there is no shell to coax him out of. Maybe this is all there is...

I've tried broaching this topic (rather clumsily) and he doesn't really seem to get it, even though he's hinted at having problems in the past with people being able to read his feelings and being more comfortable in a group than one-on-one. 

I can't seem to think of a way that talking about this could be productive. 

Anyone on the ENTP/INTP fence who can tell it from his point of view?

Thanks in advance!


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

I can be quite affectionate, playful and the kinds of things you talk about, but it seems like I need the right signals from the girl or something. It's hard to explain, but different people draw different things out of me, and I seem to act how I feel they'd like me to act. He may be feeling self-conscious too or something.

I would say try to initiate the kinds of things you are hoping for and see how he responds.


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## bluenile (Jun 22, 2009)

oh god. just stumbled upon this link.

NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki

i haven't done this in a *really* long time b/c I learned a lot from all those early experiences in high school and college, but i'm wondering if i'm in stage 3 of this right now.

he was (comparatively) affectionate and demonstrative when i was the one who was really hesitant about the relationship. now that i'm finally in, he's a bit more in autopilot and i'm like whoa....this is far from a done deal. i'm still making up my mind.


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## MoreWobbles (Mar 14, 2010)

Seems like an ENTP to me, we're not always loud and obnoxious. It's normal i don't think there's any shell to take him out of. You might find there's periods where he is like this when you're alone and periods where he's more like your ex. Although i strongly expect its just cause of his age.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

oh dear my EX was a Jane Austen fan too.

Throw away those books.


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## NeedsNewNameNow (Dec 1, 2009)

bluenile said:


> oh god. just stumbled upon this link.
> 
> NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki
> 
> .


That is just one thing that could go wrong. I think the error in that example is don't try to act NT if you aren't.


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

*Some thoughts...*

Time alone isn't going to solve this, I fear. Something to consider is what does he get when he is more expressive, romantic and open? In other words, why should he do this? If you want to say, "Just because he should," that isn't likely to be a good answer here, sorry. Consider his side along with how what you may be wanting from him he has a hard time sharing with someone else 1-on-1.

I'm not sure that being more demonstrative will remedy things here. While you may be able to state what you want here, how well could you state what he'd get out of the deal? While one could answer this in rather technical speak of currencies and what motivates him, there is the flip side of love languages and how well do you speak his so that he knows you do care about him and just want some things changed a little?

I'd wonder if there isn't something to be said for your Judging side and his Perceiving side being at odds here. He just adapts to whatever is happening around him while you want that structure and order to things. There is also the chance that in private, he may feel insecure or scared of telling you what he is thinking or feeling which could be its own side of trouble here. Some of what you want sounds reasonable as part of the situation, but there are other sides you left out, at least as I see it in terms of being fair with him.

I'll concede that I'm not an xNTP, but this is just an observer's thoughts on your situation. The "he doesn't get it" should be the flag that says, "Hey! We gotta try talking about this again and again," as I do think he may understand the problem if it can be communicated in the proper light. If you need some help look at "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie as a list of things to note in your interactions with him. If you were expecting this to be solved without doing any work yourself, I think you may need to change some expectations. At the same time, I think the end result of him being more expressive and romantic is quite possible if you can communicate how big this is for you and find a way to make it seem like a big win for him to do it. Some people will do things naturally and effortlessly and others can take a lot to do what may seem like a simple thing. For example, just to call up my sister and say, "Hi," can take me hours of thought, planning, and contigency planning that may not make sense to most other people.


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## thewindlistens (Mar 12, 2009)

bluenile said:


> oh god. just stumbled upon this link.
> 
> NT/NF Death Spiral - AdamWiki
> 
> ...


If you think that's what the problem is, try to tell him so. Don't assume he'll just figure it out by himself.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

It seems like you aren't really in love with him and don't like him for who he is. If there aren't fireworks now, there probably never will be. But if you really want to try to work it out, I think jbking gave the best advice. Another suggestion is that you could initiate a conversation about love languages so you both have a better understanding of how to satisfy each other's needs and to recognize each other's way of expressing love.


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## bluenile (Jun 22, 2009)

MoreWobbles said:


> Seems like an ENTP to me, we're not always loud and obnoxious. It's normal i don't think there's any shell to take him out of. You might find there's periods where he is like this when you're alone and periods where he's more like your ex. Although i strongly expect its just cause of his age.


I can't imagine an ENTP taking two years to finally get the girl, though. ENTPs might take that long to decide they want the girl, but have no trouble charming her from the get-go. At least that's been my experience.

Do people just naturally get less romantic as they get older?



ENTrePenuer said:


> oh dear my EX was a Jane Austen fan too.
> 
> Throw away those books.


But she's hilarious! A total NT. All of the women in her books who are super romantic and go chasing love find disastrous ends. People get married, but only because if it's also practical.



unleashthehounds said:


> I can be quite affectionate, playful and the kinds of things you talk about, but it seems like I need the right signals from the girl or something. It's hard to explain, but different people draw different things out of me, and I seem to act how I feel they'd like me to act. He may be feeling self-conscious too or something.
> 
> I would say try to initiate the kinds of things you are hoping for and see how he responds.


I think the best thing I can do at this point is give him some space, because my sense is that he needs it, but somehow I don't think he's going to ask for it.

I do think he very often feels self-conscious and about the stupidest shit.

@jbking, @thewindlistens....I will try to bring this up again in the future, if it continues to be a problem, but I suppose what I'm looking for now more than a course of action is understanding. My experience has been that, as an INFJ, although I can detect super subtle shifts in emotion, I am not always good at interpreting them and they can end up bothering me to a disproportionate extent when he might not even be aware he's feeling/acting differently...problem being that I can say, "What's up? Is everything OK? I've been noticing something is off..." and end up making a mountain out of a molehill.


And again, in terms of the NT/NF thing, for me, too much emotion is destabilizing which is why I am soooooo attracted to T men (they feel like a very comforting sea wall against that deep ocean running through me). At the same time, I need some reassurance and affection (i.e., feedback) to keep me going. 

My ENTP ex was Mr. Unattainable until he was all in and super romantic (probably the most romantic, head over heels relationship I'll ever have) until he totally imploded on himself. Too much drama!


*To all the xNTPs out there--I am perfectly happy giving you space because I need mine, too, but how else can I help inspire your inner kid to come out and play?
*


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

bluenile said:


> I can't imagine an ENTP taking two years to finally get the girl, though. ENTPs might take that long to decide they want the girl, but have no trouble charming her from the get-go. At least that's been my experience.
> 
> Do people just naturally get less romantic as they get older?
> 
> ...


Stop overthinking everything.
That's it, stop reading into stuff, stop changing yourself in response to him.

You guys have an unspoken bond that can ONLY be broken by you trying to alter the natural dynamic.
Sadly this goes against type so it's almost impossible to avoid but the next time you start fretting about what he's thinking stop.


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## bluenile (Jun 22, 2009)

ENTrePenuer said:


> Stop overthinking everything.
> That's it, stop reading into stuff, stop changing yourself in response to him.
> 
> You guys have an unspoken bond that can ONLY be broken by you trying to alter the natural dynamic.
> Sadly this goes against type so it's almost impossible to avoid but the next time you start fretting about what he's thinking stop.


I'm definitely not fretting about what he's thinking! I know perfectly well where we stand and if I want to know what he's thinking, I just ask. I'm fretting about the feeling part, about the fact that although I really like him, I find myself feeling distant and detached. If he's not capable of showing more emotion, I'm not certain this has long-term potential, which sucks, because he's one of the most awesome human beings I've ever met.


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

My question is if you ask him to show more emotion, what happens? Have there been times where he showed emotion and you reacted in a negative way from his perspective? I know that I can have this turtle mentality as I call it. If I'm encouraged and welcomed, out of my shell I'll come and maybe talk a few heads off. If I'm belittled or teased, back into that protective shell I go! Thus, I wonder how well have you communicated your dislike of feeling distant and detached here as well? I recognize that I'm giving lots of questions and don't have the answers, but I think some of this may become clear as you get enough information to decide what to do in a mature manner.


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## Jerick (Mar 19, 2010)

> What's difficult for me to reconcile is that in public, he is 100% an ENTP--hilarious, witty, gregarious, spontaneous, charming, expansive, always one of the poles at a dinner party, a clown, a total performer (*everyone loves him*), but in private, he is incredibly reserved and formal--almost aloof. Too polite. I wish that he would tease me more in private, be a bit more of his irreverent, totally out there self, but for some reason it seems he only turns on the charm if he has an audience. He seems like a classic ENTP in the social and work worlds, and an INTP at home.


He's not changing into an introvert when he gets home, that's how an extrovert acts when they're not around very many people. He's probably a high extrovert and gets his energy from being in groups of people.

An introvert would have the opposite behavior, and would act polite and withdrawn around groups of people, and then open up when they're around 1 other person they're comfortable with or when they're by themselves.

This reminds me exactly of my dad, who's ESTJ. He's very friendly and jovial around groups of people, but when he comes home he just sits in front of the TV and doesn't talk very much. The common link between him and your boyfriend is the E.


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## bluenile (Jun 22, 2009)

Jerick said:


> He's not changing into an introvert when he gets home, that's how an extrovert acts when they're not around very many people. He's probably a high extrovert and gets his energy from being in groups of people.
> 
> An introvert would have the opposite behavior, and would act polite and withdrawn around groups of people, and then open up when they're around 1 other person they're comfortable with or when they're by themselves.
> 
> This reminds me exactly of my dad, who's ESTJ. He's very friendly and jovial around groups of people, but when he comes home he just sits in front of the TV and doesn't talk very much. The common link between him and your boyfriend is the E.


That makes sense. I'm the opposite--I'm much more open and talkative one-on-one and tend to be more withdrawn in groups. The difference wasn't quite as marked with my other E boyfriends, though. It's like he's two totally different people. I like them both, but I guess part of the problem is, the context that makes him come out and play makes me hide, and vice-versa.


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## Radiant Flux (May 7, 2010)

In truth, I am a very socially ackward person who longs for affection, but is afriad to ask. I used to have the same problem with one of my exs. He tought I didn't like him when it was really just that I was nervous and unsure.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

So what were his other relationships like? How did his previous things wind down? Is this how they usually end for him? 

Also: I had a problem with my current g/f where I had put her on so much of a pedestal that I really couldn't emotionally relate to her in an open and easy manner. With you being a bit of a "trophy" for him (due to age) that might be a contributing factor. It took a lot of time and work to get past that stage for us even though we were both honestly confronting it.


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