# Bi Polar Bears Unite



## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

Fern said:


> Thanks for your helpful feedback
> 
> I'm on Lamictal now... not sure if that's a "real" mood stabilizer by your standards, but I see results and am content with it
> 
> ...


Where did my post go???

You might want to try Perphenazine in lieu of Risperdal. Minimal side effects, though it is weaker as an anti-manic.

If you are near a university hospital, that would be a good place to start (i.e. Stanford, etc.). Also, I suspect some medical groups are better than others (like Sutter Health). Run from Kaiser.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

I have a question for confirmed Bi-Polar bears here  : do you feel like your MBTI type changes during a mania or depressive episode, whether hypo or hyper? Just curious.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

bigstupidgrin said:


> I have a question for confirmed Bi-Polar bears here  : do you feel like your MBTI type changes during a mania or depressive episode, whether hypo or hyper? Just curious.


My perception of my MBTI type goes all over the map with mood changes but cognitive functions stay the same.


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## Kyrielle (Mar 12, 2012)

bigstupidgrin said:


> I have a question for confirmed Bi-Polar bears here  : do you feel like your MBTI type changes during a mania or depressive episode, whether hypo or hyper? Just curious.


No. I don't really feel like my MBTI type changes. My mind is the same, just every cognitive function is thrown into overdrive and slightly warped. I'd say I end up presenting a classic case of an Ni-dom caught in the extreme grip of Se.


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## CosmicYeti (Dec 15, 2014)

Hello everyone! I'm a bi polar bear as well (type I as a recent diagnosis proved). Thank you @bigstupidgrin for referring me to this thread. Hope everyone here 's doing good. @Jeff Felis I noticed you mentioned in a post that you take Seroquel. I've been perscribed the same (300mg) and I was wondering if you could tell me what's your experience with it. I've heard it can cause a number of side-effects (as any medication) and even though I'm aware that drugs respond differently for everyone I was wondering if you could share you experience with it?


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

@CosmicYeti 

I was only on it for a little while and that was as needed. Antipsychotics make me panicky, so I stopped Seroquel. Resperdal was the same way.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

The doctor wavers between cyclothymia and bipolar II for me.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

CosmicYeti said:


> Hello everyone! I'm a bi polar bear as well (type I as a recent diagnosis proved). Thank you @_bigstupidgrin_ for referring me to this thread. Hope everyone here 's doing good. @_Jeff Felis_ I noticed you mentioned in a post that you take Seroquel. I've been perscribed the same (300mg) and I was wondering if you could tell me what's your experience with it. I've heard it can cause a number of side-effects (as any medication) and even though I'm aware that drugs respond differently for everyone I was wondering if you could share you experience with it?


Seroquel gave me too much of a hangover at low doses (doses that aren't even therapeutic for mania but are helpful for sleep).

So for me, it can be helpful for sleep when I'm breaching mania but otherwise I stick with Risperdal, which is much less sedating at a therapeutic (anti-manic) dose...though even Risperdal gives me a hangover if I over-do it (this is with hospital-size doses though: 4mg-6mg).


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

CosmicYeti said:


> Hello everyone! I'm a bi polar bear as well (type I as a recent diagnosis proved). Thank you @bigstupidgrin for referring me to this thread. Hope everyone here 's doing good. @Jeff Felis I noticed you mentioned in a post that you take Seroquel. I've been perscribed the same (300mg) and I was wondering if you could tell me what's your experience with it. I've heard it can cause a number of side-effects (as any medication) and even though I'm aware that drugs respond differently for everyone I was wondering if you could share you experience with it?


Asked my wife about Seroquil: she got tardive dyskenthia (uncontrollable muscle twitching) and weight gain from it. She says it does really work well for some people tho.

Her current psych drugs of choice (funny sounding sentence) are Geodon, Trileptal (not approved for Bi-polar but is close to a drug that is) , and Lamictal.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

You're bipolar 2 and are on FIVE meds? You should not be on that many meds unless you have full blown psychosis, and have homicidal/suicidal tendencies. I am cyclothymic and HPD according to some doctors (only cyclothymic according to some doctors) and I have never been on more than two meds at pretty low doses. Even the week I spent in a psychiatric unit, and I had the dual diagnosis that week (they deemed me suicidal not homicidal, just fyi).


You shouldn't be on five meds unless you think you are Jesus Christ, talk to imaginary people, or can be determined to have homicidal episodes. I mean seriously there have been serial killers who only had BPD, but they had already killed people and had very severe cases, with antisocial tendencies. 

I really really want to encourage you to seek a second or third opinion. Over medication is a crime that can cost your mental or physical health. There's no need to be under compliant or over compliant, but you need to take control of your diagnosis, or they will, I promise, send you wandering around the city at midnight alone.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Jeff Felis said:


> I have Borderline Personality Disorder, Bipolar One, Panic Disorder, and GCS (Grumpy Cat Syndrome). I take Paxil 30mg once a day, Depokote 1,000mg twice.a day and Seroquel as needed.
> 
> I read my self help/spiritual books and try to be as mindful as I can. Humor helps. Now can everyone here hold me.


You sound similar to me. I take a very low dose of Wellbutrin (150 mg) and Trileptal (600 mg, started at 300 mg but I couldn't stop panicking or getting extremely angry and my mom told them she was sincerely worried I would have a stroke). I no longer have panic attacks unless I take some outside substance, like pain killers or hard liquor, or naltrexone. ...any third med I was given was a mere suggestion that I was allowed to stop taking at my discretion (mainly naltrexone and trazadone, one made me manic and the other made me depressed, they were supposed to treat alcohol dependence and insomnia, but seriously, I think a couple glasses of wine a day or three a week are infinitely less harmful than being over medicated daily).

I rarely meet someone who is both BPD and bipolar. They usually decide one or another. How did they decode that for you?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Kyrielle said:


> I was recently diagnosed with Cyclothymia, which is simply a nice way of saying: "You have Bipolar, but you haven't gotten to the point where you believe you're on a mission from God nor have you actually attempted suicide."
> 
> That doesn't mean that the depression isn't crippling nor that the manic states don't cause me problems. It also doesn't mean that I don't have breaks with reality now and then (never quite psychotic, but enough to cause severe confusion and distress).
> 
> ...


People who have cyclothymia are usually creative and eccentric, may be actors, artists, writers...it's both a nice way of saying you aren't yet on a full blown Mission From God, but it's also a way of saying you are more interesting and intelligent than they are. People who judge me have usually lived much less interesting lives, much more conventional, ambition far lower, they're dull people to me. ..most of my lovers have at least been prescribed at least one anti depressant. I don't have a lot of patience for the boring.

I mainly sought help for things that surfaced due to an abusive relationship and because I would rather not just drink myself to death or be a drug addict like my father, who hovers over me like some cruel good looking spector who could play seven different musical instruments but had an amphetamine problem and died in his fifties, after abusing my mother.

I will only get as much help as I need to function. Anyone who wants to "help" me to a more detailed degree probably has personality traits similar to Hitler.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Currently not on meds nor properly diagnosed, especially since the therapist I was seeing in my teens was very incompetent and unable to establish a line of understanding and communication with me, but a bipolar bear nonetheless. With officially and clinically diagnosed PTSD to make things more complicated and definite socially avoidant behavior although that might simply be part of my type and simply the way I am.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> You sound similar to me. I take a very low dose of Wellbutrin (150 mg) and Trileptal (600 mg, started at 300 mg but I couldn't stop panicking or getting extremely angry and my mom told them she was sincerely worried I would have a stroke). I no longer have panic attacks unless I take some outside substance, like pain killers or hard liquor, or naltrexone. ...any third med I was given was a mere suggestion that I was allowed to stop taking at my discretion (mainly naltrexone and trazadone, one made me manic and the other made me depressed, they were supposed to treat alcohol dependence and insomnia, but seriously, I think a couple glasses of wine a day or three a week are infinitely less harmful than being over medicated daily).
> 
> I rarely meet someone who is both BPD and bipolar. They usually decide one or another. How did they decode that for you?


The doctors say I am bipolar one and after careful consideration about how I have thought, felt, and treated others Borderline fit me as well. The books written for lay people have helped me understand myself.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Jeff Felis said:


> The doctors say I am bipolar one and after careful consideration about how I have thought, felt, and treated others Borderline fit me as well. The books written for lay people have helped me understand myself.


Ok cool, you are one of the few people who have BPD I have ever encountered who actually accept it and recognize themselves, because they largely reject treatment because of their lack of emotional self regulation, and my cooperation, my drive to be well, my drive to be well and functional, convinced all my therapist in California that BPD was unrealistic for me, I even had my HPD diagnosis removed, but even I am suspicious of that because I know how cluster Bs are manipulative and convince doctors of profound mental health, trust worthy behavior, basically we are in the same "pool" as sociopaths in our ability to be "interesting" and "attractive" and destract others from our lack of wellness ...through lies, manipulative behavior, drama and acting. Cluster Bs are all relational, and most are functional, even to the point of overt success, the "wolf of wall street" was just functional ASPD, intelligent sociopath, a lot of people in the entertainment industry have these disorders because of advanced ability to convince others they are not only ok, but exceptional. My sister utterly resists treatment, and my ex who is undoubtedly BPD wouldn't even stay with a therapist. 

I just want to be well, and successful, and I tell them about my dad and some distant relatives and suddenly I'm lucky and just a minor victim of neurobiology. 

I am glad reading helps you though, because pressing myself to read about HPD has helped me much more than seeing myself as a victim of biological emotional extremes.

But of course it helps me too to understand some things are beyond my control. I have something akin to the Hemingway curse. 

But you know, you have to hang on to the part of you that is great and terrible. Without the terrible, you might not be great, Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway, Henry Miller, even Tupac. ...with out their terrible they couldn't also be great. To wrestle with madness is a higher calling, it's not for the weak, for people who just wish they could be normal, no great person was normal, and the consequences are sometimes an odd life or even an early death. 

Gillian Flynn helps me a lot. She writes about odd, strange, damaged people, and she makes them meaningful and gives them explanation except in the coldest cases. She's one of my favorite newer writers. I think she's an IXFP.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

Jeff Felis said:


> The doctors say I am bipolar one and after careful consideration about how I have thought, felt, and treated others Borderline fit me as well. The books written for lay people have helped me understand myself.


If you are bipolar one, don't self-diagnose PD's. I repeatedly tried to self-diagnose BPD and NPD and my pinhead therapist and phenomenal psychiatrist (who used to do extensive therapy and now does only psychopharmacology) both told me I was absolutely and utterly not either of those. This was proven as recently as a few weeks ago when I was on enough mood stabilizers to pull me down (I'm EXTREMELY heavy on the top side) to the middle and suddenly all the symptoms I thought were BPD and NPD vanished into thin air.

According to my psychiatrist, bipolar is like a microphone for normal emotional reactions. For instance, if your boss says something you don't like and you have no mental illness, you'll probably be annoyed, eat some bon bons and move on. If you're bipolar, you'll wish your boss was dead and consider resigning despite not having any other work lined up. This sounds like BPD...it's really just an unregulated brain. By the same token, the closer you get to full-blown mania (when you're in high-end hypomania), the more NPD-like traits start to form.

Until you've truly experienced the middle, you can't be certain about your baseline. If you've only experienced hypo/mania and depression, the middle is this mysterious place where pots 'o' gold are at the end of the rainbow and medications have no side effects.


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

Thalassa said:


> You sound similar to me. I take a very low dose of Wellbutrin (150 mg) and Trileptal (600 mg, started at 300 mg but I couldn't stop panicking or getting extremely angry and my mom told them she was sincerely worried I would have a stroke). I no longer have panic attacks unless I take some outside substance, like pain killers or hard liquor, or naltrexone. ...any third med I was given was a mere suggestion that I was allowed to stop taking at my discretion (mainly naltrexone and trazadone, one made me manic and the other made me depressed, they were supposed to treat alcohol dependence and insomnia, but seriously, I think a couple glasses of wine a day or three a week are infinitely less harmful than being over medicated daily).


I was taking Welbutrin for about 5 months (first month was 150 mg, the rest was 300 mg). I don't think there was any difference for me, except that when going on or off the pills, my muscles would twitch. My therapist (not a psychiatrist) says that from what he knows, only stronger doses (above the FDA-recommended amounts) seem to get an effect. *What do you think of the drug? Do you notice an effect?* I'm not very aware of my own body and moods, so I just went along with it. When I realized that I was still thinking of suicide even several months after starting the pills, I quit immediately. It's supposedly one of the few anti-depressants which has a low risk of triggering manic episodes. I didn't seem to have any hypomanic problems while taking Welbutrin (although I'm still considering/doubting the possibility that I have Bipolar II instead of MDD).



Jeff Felis said:


> The doctors say I am bipolar one and after careful consideration about how I have thought, felt, and treated others Borderline fit me as well. The books written for lay people have helped me understand myself.


From DSM-V about Bipolar I:_"The *"double counting"* of symptoms toward both ADHD and bipolar disorder can be avoided if the clinician clarifies whether the symptom(s) represents a distinct episode." (132)_​Bipolar II: _"The same convention as applies for ADHD also applies when evaluating an individual for a personality disorder such as borderline personality disorder..." (139)
_
Bipolar I: _"Personality disorders such as *borderline personality disorder may have substantial symptomatic overlap with bipolar disorders*, since mood lability and impulsivity are common in both conditions. Symptoms must represent a distinct episode, and the noticeable increase over baseline required for the diagnosis of bipolar disorder must be present. A diagnosis of a personality disorder should not be made during an untreated mood episode." (132)

_Bipolar II: _"A diagnosis of a personality disorder should not be made during an untreated mood episode unless the lifetime history supports the presence of a personality disorder." (139)_​
I notice the addition of the final "unless" clause when moving from the Bipolar I section. Perhaps they're just more lenient with Bipolar II comorbidity?_
"Borderline personality disorder is associated with marked shifts in mood that may suggest cyclothymic disorder. If the criteria are met for both disorders, both ... may be diagnosed." (141)_​
This is the only section that I found that suggested the possibility of comorbidity with BPD and any bipolar disorders -- NOT to say that the others are impossible, and NOT to say that I know what I'm talking about. I'm just throwing quotes around.
Comorbidity for Major Depressive Disorder: _"Other disorders with which major depressive disorder *frequently* co-occurs are substance-related disorders, panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, and *borderline personality disorder*." (168)_​
Just to show that they seem to suggest BPD comorbidity as more likely with MDD than Bipolar.

I'm skeptical of your claim, because Borderline & Bipolar I can appear similar. If you have been simultaneously diagnosed (by professionals) with both disorders, then you have a lot of my sympathies. :th_woot: Having both would be very tough.



Hotaru said:


> Currently not on meds *nor properly diagnosed,* especially since the therapist I was seeing in my teens was very incompetent and unable to establish a line of understanding and communication with me, *but a bipolar bear nonetheless*. With officially and clinically diagnosed PTSD to make things more complicated and definite socially avoidant behavior although that might simply be part of my type and simply the way I am.


Bipolar disorder is serious business, especially when on top of PTSD. *If you have serious problems, then you require serious (i.e. professional) help.* Bipolar disorder doesn't just "go away on its own", and PTSD is unlikely to heal without treatment.
Self-diagnosis is bad. It trivializes serious issues and helps nobody, not even yourself.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Dalton said:


> Bipolar disorder is serious business, especially when on top of PTSD. *If you have serious problems, then you require serious (i.e. professional) help.* Bipolar disorder doesn't just "go away on its own", and PTSD is unlikely to heal without treatment.
> Self-diagnosis is bad. It trivializes serious issues and helps nobody, not even yourself.


It's not a self diagnosis, I've talked to a different professional many years later and they saw clear patterns of bipolar but I never went through a full therapy process for personal reasons so this is what I meant with not properly diagnosed, I think I brought it up once. It's hard for me as my family refuses to accept any kind of diagnosis or to allow me to take meds, as well as my fear of losing myself, but I want to resume therapy although I might wait to be out of the country first.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

@Popinjay @Dalton
Thank you both so very much.


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm definitely bipolar-spectrum but I haven't seen my therapist, who's a specialist in it, in a while ... I had a really nasty hypomanic crash at the beginning of the year and right now I feel ... adrift.

P.S. Thank you @Fern for pointing me to this thread. I read through every post.


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## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> I'm sure you are right that overmedication happens. However I would dispute the claim that it happens in general.


Please do.

In foster care, over medicating is a high probability. But foster homes are not equivalent with all situations. I'd like to hear your arguments.






I can provide articles too, if so inclined.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

hoopla said:


> Please do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> hoopla said:
> 
> 
> > Please do.
> ...


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

hoopla said:


> I see it this way-
> 
> It's all in the individual.
> 
> ...


I have experience with overmedicating, as well. I have two nephews who were overdiagnosed with nonsense disorders and given 2-3 meds each (that made them far worse). Later a rational doctor took both kids off the meds and the kids went from being weird and poorly functional to fairly normal kids who get decent grades.

Yeah, I should have thought of that...I was just trying to argue the opposition side, I guess.


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## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> I have experience with overmedicating, as well. I have two nephews who were overdiagnosed with nonsense disorders and given 2-3 meds each (that made them far worse). Later a rational doctor took both kids off the meds and the kids went from being weird and poorly functional to fairly normal kids who get decent grades.
> 
> Yeah, I should have thought of that...I was just trying to argue the opposition side, I guess.


I'm glad you mentioned under medication. I never considered that possibility either.

you did fine- you argued your side very well.


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## haephestia (May 13, 2013)

My 2c: I am in nursing school and have logged over 1000 hours of in-hospital experience in mental health/psychiatrics, pediatrics, adolescent psych and geriatrics. 

Overmedication is most certainly a thing. I'd believe it may happen more often in foster care _however_ the rate of behavioural disorders in children 'in the system' is also greater. I work assessing teens in urgent consult right now and many of them are CPS cases... an unfortunate reality of the social determinants of health. The good staff don't stand for it, and good psychiatrists will never medicate a kid just because mommy (or whoever's playing her) says the kid's a menace.

Undermedication is also very much a thing. The good _nurses_ don't stand for it. Doctors don't care so much about this one.

I've argued with residents and doctors over both. Nobody deserves to be narcotized and nobody should have to be in pain or suffering symptoms because they're 'not due for [med] for 3 more hours'. 

I've never had any personal experiences with med problems either way, but I've been working in mental health since before I got diagnosed and have never taken any shit from psychiatrists who wanted to believe they knew my symptoms better than I did. I've always been on the lowest or near-lowest dose for every med I've been on, and I'm happy with that.


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

I had extra bupropion from the last time I was prescribed. I was very low, so I finally used some of it, after months of thinking about using them (or trying cocaine) in order to escape the depression. That was a mistake. I do feel slightly better emotionally, despite the terrible pain it causes my body, but now I need to wait 2 weeks before I try any other drugs that might treat my condition.

No more of it for me. I'll set up an appointment with a psychiatrist ASAP.


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## bearlybreathing (Aug 6, 2013)

I have bipolar I w/psychotic features. Currently in group therapy where I've discovered I'm extremely addicted to my manias even though they cause a lot of trouble for me. I just came out of a psychotic mania thanks to clozapine. I hate meds and mixed episodes. Depression I'm realizing more and more isn't so bad. When I feel like I'm doing well, I'm actually doing horribly. When I'm doing well, I feel horrible. Starting to feel like suicide is my only option, but we'll see.


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## CosmicYeti (Dec 15, 2014)

thatskiergirl said:


> I have bipolar I w/psychotic features. Currently in group therapy where I've discovered I'm extremely addicted to my manias even though they cause a lot of trouble for me. I just came out of a psychotic mania thanks to clozapine. I hate meds and mixed episodes. Depression I'm realizing more and more isn't so bad. When I feel like I'm doing well, I'm actually doing horribly. When I'm doing well, I feel horrible. Starting to feel like suicide is my only option, but we'll see.


Mixed states are the worst. It's like I've tied myself to a rocket and it's going.
No one's gonna say that meds are great. But they can help. Ever since I started taking mine I realized for the first time how out of touch with reality I was. That shit's worth it.
Suicide is not the answer to anything. Whether you're bipolar, schizophrenic, or just a depressed adolescent. I mean... you're gonna die anyway. You're meant to die -we all are without the slightest bit of exception. Might as well fight till then. 

One thing I wanted to post here and now here's the chance is that if anyone wants to talk they can always PM.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

thatskiergirl said:


> I have bipolar I w/psychotic features. Currently in group therapy where I've discovered I'm extremely addicted to my manias even though they cause a lot of trouble for me. I just came out of a psychotic mania thanks to clozapine. I hate meds and mixed episodes. Depression I'm realizing more and more isn't so bad. When I feel like I'm doing well, I'm actually doing horribly. When I'm doing well, I feel horrible. Starting to feel like suicide is my only option, but we'll see.


These are just platitudes but suicide is not the answer and don't lose hope. Sometimes it just helps to know other people have been where you are and got out (I did). I take anti-manics to keep the top-side under control and Lamictal helps the bottom side.

My previous mania lasted 15 months and for a good year and a half afterward I STILL had crazy thoughts on and off. It actually took a year and a half after the mania ended (sort of) to get to where I am now (which is where I was before the mania...basically normal). It took getting the meds right.

I hope you feel better.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

thatskiergirl said:


> I have bipolar I w/psychotic features. Currently in group therapy where I've discovered I'm extremely addicted to my manias even though they cause a lot of trouble for me. I just came out of a psychotic mania thanks to clozapine. I hate meds and mixed episodes. Depression I'm realizing more and more isn't so bad. When I feel like I'm doing well, I'm actually doing horribly. When I'm doing well, I feel horrible. Starting to feel like suicide is my only option, but we'll see.


The mania addiction and medication avoidance is very typical for those with bp.

I don't want to sound like Mom telling you to eat your veggies, but honestly those meds are so important. Even if you just take an anti-depressant of some kind to deal with those suicidal inklings, because I've been there (heck I am there) and no one should have to fight that alone.

I'm glad to hear you have group therapy help, though! I hope it gives you what you need right now in life.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

I've been lurking this thread again, yeay procrastination. As for the meds vs. too many meds thing it depends on the person. Some people with BP can be fine without meds, some people (my wife included) need a lot of different meds. Yes, people can be over medicated, but people can be under medicated as well. Neither are ideal.


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## bearlybreathing (Aug 6, 2013)

Fern said:


> The mania addiction and medication avoidance is very typical for those with bp.
> 
> I don't want to sound like Mom telling you to eat your veggies, but honestly those meds are so important. Even if you just take an anti-depressant of some kind to deal with those suicidal inklings, because I've been there (heck I am there) and no one should have to fight that alone.
> 
> I'm glad to hear you have group therapy help, though! I hope it gives you what you need right now in life.


Thanks, except anti-depressants cause mania and more impulsiveness (at least with me and a few others I've met in treatment). Someone with BP should never be taking solely an antidepressant without something to prevent mania. The thing about meds is I've been trying for 2 years to find something that works, and I found it (it's called clozapine) but I need weekly bloodwork, weekly prescriptions, I sleep 12+ hours a day on it, and it makes it so I can't hold down food and can vomit anywhere between 3 and 10 times a day on it if I try to eat. I have tried_ literally everything else_ and *nothing *works without side effects that make me feel even worse than without meds.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

thatskiergirl said:


> Thanks, except anti-depressants cause mania and more impulsiveness (at least with me and a few others I've met in treatment). Someone with BP should never be taking solely an antidepressant without something to prevent mania. The thing about meds is I've been trying for 2 years to find something that works, and I found it (it's called clozapine) but I need weekly bloodwork, weekly prescriptions, I sleep 12+ hours a day on it, and it makes it so I can't hold down food and can vomit anywhere between 3 and 10 times a day on it if I try to eat. I have tried_ literally everything else_ and *nothing *works without side effects that make me feel even worse than without meds.


Yes, I know they cause mania which is why I said _"at least"_, just so you're not trying to kill yourself. Obviously you should be taking a full spectrum of your prescribed medication, but i'm not going to boss you around and tell you to do the obvious things you need to do to help yourself. Besides, you said you like mania.

Yes, clozapine is the worst and I've never met a single person on it that hasn't had a horrible experience.

I can't solve your problem for you and you sound like you're just making excuses for yourself. Tell your psychiatrist. You're not so special that nobody before you has struggled with med combos.


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## bearlybreathing (Aug 6, 2013)

Fern said:


> Yes, I know they cause mania which is why I said _"at least"_, just so you're not trying to kill yourself. Obviously you should be taking a full spectrum of your prescribed medication, but i'm not going to boss you around and tell you to do the obvious things you need to do to help yourself. Besides, you said you like mania.
> 
> Yes, clozapine is the worst and I've never met a single person on it that hasn't had a horrible experience.
> 
> I can't solve your problem for you and you sound like you're just making excuses for yourself. Tell your psychiatrist. You're not so special that nobody before you has struggled with med combos.


I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying I'd rather die than be on meds.


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

thatskiergirl said:


> I'm not making excuses. I'm just saying I'd rather die than be on meds.


You say you've tried everything. If you've truly tried everything, what do you expect anyone here is going to be able to offer you?

I suspect some doctors drop the Clozapine card when they've run out of ideas. My doctor almost came to that point with me (we discussed Clozapine in all its glory) and then added Lamictal to my other 5 meds based on his buddy at Stanford's experience with a Bipolar Type I successfully on Lamictal _monotherapy_. My psychiatrist has his own Type I on Lamictal monotherapy, as well because of the Stanford guy. It seems to be the icing on the med cake for me. With the rest of my meds, I'm pretty much hypomania-free.

Have you tried low doses of several medications together, e.g.:

Lithobid - 600-900mg
Depakote ER - 1000-1500mg
Risperdal - 1-3mg
Lamictal - 50+mg
If necessary, Carbatrol - 400-800mg

Low doses means fewer side effects, although there can be an additive effect. I do the same thing except with high doses but apart from tremor (good 'ol Lithobid) I really don't have any significant side effects.

Anyway...if you haven't done it, it's worth looking into.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

For those who aren't on medication, how do you deal with strong and prolonged mood swings?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> For those who aren't on medication, how do you deal with strong and prolonged mood swings?


I wish I could answer this, but I can't as I don't have mood swings longer than about a month to six weeks.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Hotaru said:


> For those who aren't on medication, how do you deal with strong and prolonged mood swings?


Look into DBT! Or CBT. THe only difference is that DBT is tailor-made for those with Bi Polar/ Borderline and CBT was made with the anxious and depressed in mind. 

Both accessibly teach some excellent coping mechanisms. You may have heard much talk of _mindfulness_? DBT sage wisdom.

I'm not going to patronize you too much because I know you know how to use the internet and you seem to have plenty of initiative  _dbt pdf_ if as a good way to start. 


The thing with the mood swings that is so difficult is that it's not as if you're just being temperamental-psycho-bitch: there's a legitimate chemical imbalance. That's what makes going without medication so challenging. 
But you're tough, and I'm inferring from your question that meds are an impossibility for you right now.

I believe there are ways to get medication for free, but the line is long and you typically are only given 5 meds at a time, so it's not nothing but... time-consuming.
I don't know how it works in your area, but if you're able to speak with a professional, some knowledgeable person at a support group in your area or consult the web - you should be able to dig something up.

But anyway - you didn't ask that  I'm just anticipating any issues that might be preventing the amassment of le drugz.

(hugs) Good luck.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

koalaroo said:


> I wish I could answer this, but I can't as I don't have mood swings longer than about a month to six weeks.


I shouldn't have said prolonged, although I have those as well, in a similar length to yours.
Maybe a bit more but it depends on the circumstances.

I was referring to the intensity, even just in a single day. When they're spilling all over the place.



Fern said:


> Look into DBT! Or CBT. THe only difference is that DBT is tailor-made for those with Bi Polar/ Borderline and CBT was made with the anxious and depressed in mind.
> 
> Both accessibly teach some excellent coping mechanisms. You may have heard much talk of _mindfulness_? DBT sage wisdom.
> 
> ...


Meds are an impossibility for me because of external factors out of my control.
I'll definitely look for a proper path and eventual prescription around next fall when I'll be free.
There's a lot of personal worries but that's not the main reason why I'm not on meds, sadly.
I cannot access professional treatment for the time being, I haven't been able to for years.

Things are going to change.

But for now, I'll look into more coping techniques thanks.
I usually hold them in like a good ole Fi-dom but tonight they're going nuts.

There's also other minor conditions/factors making it all even crazier.
Thanks again for the support.


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

Been lurking in this thread, and so far, it seems like the best means of support I've found thus far.

I'm currently on medication (have been for about two years now). I see a nurse practitioner at a mental health facility, but currently have no therapy/counseling sessions. I keep signing up for them, but the facility never gets back with me. It's so aggravating.

I was wondering if any of you have ever had seizures or epilepsy? Apparently the two can be co-morbid. I had one grand mal seizure which landed me with an epilepsy diagnosis, although I don't really believe I'm epileptic (i was mixing a lot of drugs at the time). Anyway, as a result I was put on an anti convulsant which has helped me with my mood swings. Apparently there's a ton of anecdotal evidence that suggests anti convulsants can help with mood disorders, but none of the pharmaceutical companies want to pay for clinical studies -_- fucking FDA and shit


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## bearlybreathing (Aug 6, 2013)

Popinjay said:


> You say you've tried everything. If you've truly tried everything, what do you expect anyone here is going to be able to offer you?


So every time someone shares their experiences they're looking for something?


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Jeff Felis said:


> I have Borderline Personality Disorder, Bipolar One, Panic Disorder, and GCS (Grumpy Cat Syndrome). I take Paxil 30mg once a day, Depokote 1,000mg twice.a day and Seroquel as needed.
> 
> I read my self help/spiritual books and try to be as mindful as I can. Humor helps. Now can everyone here hold me.


[hugs] hey j.f is that a pack of roll aids in you pocket
feels sorta good
don't
stop:kitteh:


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

thatskiergirl said:


> So every time someone shares their experiences they're looking for something?


Kadir beneath Mo Moteh. Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

I return to my first post. I hope you feel better.


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## Amaryllis (Mar 14, 2014)

I just wanted to say that my mother has Bipolar disorder and that she is the best mother I could have asked for, we have a terrific mother-daughter relationship and she's one of the greatest people I know. She's always been there for me and I love her immensely.
I'm not sure whether or not it might make some people feel better, but I wanted to share this.


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## imaphoenix (Sep 11, 2012)

I am currently undiagnosed - but I do realize that I do have some sort of mental/emotional/social impairment. Could be (one or a combo or these) depression, bi-polar, aspergers, borderline personality, adhd, learning/processing disability, OCD, generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety etc. etc. I do at least know I have depression for sure. The point is I have not really sought outside help because it is expensive, time consuming, and I'm not sure that I trust the 'mental health professionals' to really understand me without just jumping to put me on meds. And then not know which meds at that and there I would be a fucking experiment.

Meds...about that...I was on Effexor XR 150mg for years. It did keep away the depression in the sense that I did not cry or feel sadness so easily as I do now. But it also made me indifferent, and without any emotion, and I over ate and put on over 80lbs over the years (I lost it now hehe!). Plus I was oblivious to my environment, and unaware of social interactions, and I was like I said just overall zombie/oblivious. 

So I weaned myself off 3 years ago and have not been on meds since. DRAMATIC personality changes started within months once I got off. All positive (but still there is residual/emotional fallout - can explain later). I am now more 'self-aware'. 

Once off meds, I realized I was overeating/overweight (so I started dieting and exercising and lost the first 60lbs in 4 months!). That alone changed my life - I was able to accomplish something of that magnitude that I never thought I could was its own mental high. And people started to treat me different (now that I am more 'attractive'). (But part of the fallout I was talking about was that I was used to being in 'my shell' and I had/have poor social skills).

Next, I went and started making friends (but that has proven to not be really satisfying as I have to work on social skills more), got a decent job, went back to school, hell I even started dating after years of solitude. 

So at first I did get better (the first year was the glory days of all my high points and accomplishments in record time, making up for years of basic inactivity), I was high on hope and focused on positive change and taking back control of my life. Every new experience with my 'new perspective' was exciting and I was filled with hope and looked forward to each new day and the future looked so bright and promising. 

Year 2 I continued this momentum, but started to lose some ground and slow down. I started to lose interest again in keeping my goals (I lost about 80lbs (I've maintained it but can't finish the job), but I am not longer interested in eating better or exercising, I just feel depressed). The void (the indifference, apathy, loneliness, isolation, loss of interest, deep sadness, crying/sleeping/eating spells, etc. ) it started to come back and I'm going down hill fast. 

I wonder if I will lose my job because I barely put in any effort, I don't care about diet/exercise anymore, I don't care about people (friends/dating/family), all I do is work (I have to support myself), take a few classes online (that frankly I lost interest in and grades are dropping), and eat poorly (I'm starting to gain weight again), and on weekends I sleep half the time - to avoid my depression/anxieties. I'm constantly anxious about who I am, and where I am going, I don't really have friends anymore (I guess I have a few but we're not too close). And I've given up on dating as I feel I am meant to be alone - dating is a nightmare for me (I have a hard time opening up to, relating and trusting people, so the endless carousel of dates I have been on in the last year has just lost its appeal). I don't even try anymore.

So out of desperation I called my GP and asked for an RX of Wellbutrin - I start tomorrow - I'll see how it goes. After being off meds and experiencing vast, vast improvements I was very reluctant to go back, but now I see that I have to gain control of my depression (its been a downward spiral) or I will probably cease functioning and lose my job, and just sleep, eat and cry my life away, or worse jump off a cliff to stop the pain.


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## Kyrielle (Mar 12, 2012)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> I was wondering if any of you have ever had seizures or epilepsy? Apparently the two can be co-morbid. I had one grand mal seizure which landed me with an epilepsy diagnosis, although I don't really believe I'm epileptic (i was mixing a lot of drugs at the time). Anyway, as a result I was put on an anti convulsant which has helped me with my mood swings. Apparently there's a ton of anecdotal evidence that suggests anti convulsants can help with mood disorders, but none of the pharmaceutical companies want to pay for clinical studies -_- fucking FDA and shit


I know I had an absence seizure as a teenager, and that I also had a few neurological/blood pressure issues. These seemed to resolve themselves over time. As far as I know, that particular type of seizure hasn't happened since. The only similar thing is my brain occasionally falling asleep (while the rest of me is awake) for a few seconds. I figure that's normal, since that typically happens when I'm tired or dehydrated.


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## imaphoenix (Sep 11, 2012)

dp


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

Hmmm... Does anyone else have rapid mood swings? I was elated earlier, now I feel gross


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## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> Hmmm... Does anyone else have rapid mood swings? I was elated earlier, now I feel gross


Ultradian...I wake up normal and somewhere between 3-5 I become "la la la la la" and can't sleep without Risperdal...then wake up the next morning hung over and can't function at work without caffeine, which increases the "la la la la la" and it makes it harder to sleep which leads to more Risperdal which leads to... It's a cascade loop.


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## imaphoenix (Sep 11, 2012)

I'm either manic as fuck today or I am normal (I don't know what kind of crazy I have) I woke up feeling like a million bucks, got my ass to the gym (I haven't worked out for 2 weeks), no depression or anxiety, no obsessive thoughts/over thinking, - only urgency/aggression - to get shit done... and fast.

I feel like choking bitches that get in my way. I'm hyper and getting my school work done and getting organized. I feel like I am on speed - but guess what I am not on any drugs (I don't smoke, do drugs, I don't even drink caffeine). I think I will put off getting back on meds! I'm just wondering if I am manic or am I just normal? Who the fuck cares, good days are few and far between ,so I will enjoy it while I can! HAPPY SPRING! (its beautiful outside too!)


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## haephestia (May 13, 2013)

I don't know if this is the right place to do this, but I'm gonna just do it.

I had a psychiatrist diagnose me when I was in university, at 20 years old. I had walked into the clinic and told them "I'm pretty sure I have bipolar" a year before that, and it had taken me that long to get assessed and diagnosed. I had been on (and off, and on again, then off because 'nah jk I'm okay' then on again because 'holy fuck I am NOT OKAY') meds for about a year. I was happy. I had a boyfriend, one that wasn't an abusive piece of shit. We had moved in together. I was engaged, I was just about graduating a university program despite everything. I was happy.

I told my psychiatrist this. He was happy for me. I was his 'easiest patient'. I told him I had applied for a BSc in nursing to start that fall. He told me he didn't believe anybody with bipolar could get through nursing school, because of the demands. He told me he didn't believe anyone with bipolar could 'make it' in nursing because of shift work disrupting sleep. He told me this at several visits, too many times.

It made me cry, and I don't cry easily over my own shit. I felt hopeless. To have a professional like that who you trust tell you that your dream is impossible because of your disorder... even on meds... it was horrible.

So now I'm in my 3rd year of nursing school. I'm in the top 20% of my class and that's despite some serious shit going on in my life beyond my control. I've supported my husband through an adult ADHD diagnosis he should have gotten 15 years ago. I've supported my teenaged brother through our parents' separation and divorce. I planned our wedding and made most of the decorations myself. I've worked shifts when I've been suicidal telling other people to take their psych meds. I've done the bare minimum knowing if it had been a few days later, I could have gotten 90%. 

Fuck that shrink and fuck people like him. My current one is a thousand times better than him if for no other reason than the fact that he didn't talk shit when I said I wanted to go into psych nursing (and he smirks at his residents when I know the side-effects of psych meds better than they do lol). 

I'm almost done. I've worked over 1000 hours in the hospital with patients, patients who have told my teachers that I was 'the one they wanted', that I understood them and worked with them even when they hated it. I have never been happier in my entire life. I don't care if it says 'bipolar' on my chart or if my lithium prescription makes GPs run for the hills. I am doing it, life, real life, and anybody who says it can't be done can go lay in front of a fucking train. 

/rant.


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## Erratic Mercenary (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm bipolar type II and the only advice I can give is to watch Silver Linings Playbook


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## Kyrielle (Mar 12, 2012)

haephestia said:


> I'm almost done. I've worked over 1000 hours in the hospital with patients, patients who have told my teachers that I was 'the one they wanted', that I understood them and worked with them even when they hated it. I have never been happier in my entire life. I don't care if it says 'bipolar' on my chart or if my lithium prescription makes GPs run for the hills. I am doing it, life, real life, and anybody who says it can't be done can go lay in front of a fucking train.
> 
> /rant.


I wish I could give you more than a thanks. Something like high-five. Something like a "fuck yeah"-five.

I'll settle for this:


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## imaphoenix (Sep 11, 2012)

haephestia said:


> Quote


I'm so proud of you! The older I get the more I realize that its the adversity that drives us. Fuck all the naysayers, haters, and negativity. 

You are just what patients need - someone who has first hand experience and struggles with mental illness. You have your ups and downs, but God dam it you're pushing the limits, kicking ass and taking names! Keep going and don't ever let anyone tell you that you can't do something.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

I like having somewhere to talk about these things periodically...

This will be a bit scattered and there will be typos because I'm in a hurry, I'm sorry. Also maybe I should put a trigger warning as I mention some things perhaps others will be sensitive to, idk

This last little 'episode' I've had was twice as bad as the last one I had mid 2014. And I say episode as I"m not quite sure what to call it. In both of them, I went up and down and in between in the span of several days. The first one, 10 days, this one almost two weeks. I'm starting to rethink the cyclothymia thing because it may be too intense? I'm not sure, maybe others would see it differently. It feels like since last year things have been getting more engimatic, harder to decipher, and I've begun feeling more like a mess. It's also really hard to say these things since I feel like such a mess and don't want to be judged as hopeless or insane as I'm not

When it happens, of course, the depressiveness makes me feel hopeless, like I'll never get through it, like I'm doomed to a life of suffering, this time, like I should die. I questioned previous faith I had had in myself as if it was delusional, I was fooling myself, I wasn't meant for anything good. All these feelings weret o last forever, I looked around me about a hundred times to find ways to escape life. The horrible feelings ultimately drove me to drink all I could and to take pain killers just to escape my feelings for a while

It started Easter day...I woke up too early and with too little sleep. I was in a shit mood, but I recall feeling off too, like something was gonna go wrong and often times I do feel it coming when something's coming. But it was fine, whatever, I was in a pissy mood because I hadn't had enough sleep. It was later in the day before bed time I started feeling my self destructive thoughts, like hurting myself. I figured if I went to sleep, maybe it'd pass because I often have days where I feel like that and it eventually passes. Things were a tad different. As per usual, I felt like breaking things, I felt like hurting myself, and I felt like strangling myself as I've come to have a particular thing about my neck/throat. The new thing is that I felt like making myself throw up, and I almost did, I got to that point of nausea, but then stopped

It just progressed from there and it really made me feel worse than I think I ever have in my life. I needed some kind of escape and sometimes death would come into my mind, but I don't think I actually wanted to die, I think I wanted to fuck myself up enough that people around me had to do something to help me. I just didn't know what to do or how to heal myself

I started leaning on a friend and she helped me, That Wednesday after Easter I felt pretty fucking great, actually, I was ready for my projects at school, I felt positive, I felt haled. But then some time later, she said something that just set me off. I completely miscontstrued it in a way I never would have had I been seeing things in a normal way, I completely overreacted. This kind of overreaction has only happened to me a couple of times, it's horrible.She stopped talking to me for a week and I thought I'd ruined the friendship...But she's a really great friend

I had this day I remember I felt fine, stable, normal, but then suddenly I felt my thoughts come crashing into me like they were going in every direction. I didn't know whether I wanted to hurt myself or not, sleep or stay awake, sit or stand, I just didn't know. I think I cut myself, on some day I cut myself but I just can't remember which. I think it was that one. My thoughts just started getting weird, Ihad some lighters in my pocket and I took one out and I started playing with the ligh. I grew this odd fascination with it and I felt like burning myself or something around me simply because it was beautiful, I started laughing and I wanted to go around showing the fire to everyone, I even tried showing it to my cat lol. I eventually calmed down but I broke down crying at some point because my thoughts were just attacking me. I was about prepared to just give in and go somewhere, but I looked myself in the mirror and told myself I needed to finish the semester. After that, I felt like I exited my emotions, I exited myself, I punched myself because I wanted to be sure I could even feel it. I felt robotic, just not myself. I went to sleep after that, and I woke up later on. I was just out of it.I certainly didn't feel myself but hell, after that kinda day it's to be expected. I felt almost like I had come out of a pool of water and was being blinded by the sun, but could still see bits and pieces, yet a part of me felt good, delivered. It wasn't until a bit later I started feeling horrible again. I started feeling fatalistic about things, like I was trapped, it was never gonna end, I was crazy, I would never feel better or who knows how the hell long this would last? I kept complaining to my mom as if she could do something, but she couldn't, which made me feel worse. I just needed an escape. It was late, I couldn't sleep because being there in bed with only my thoughts was too much to bare. Eventually my mom gave me a klonopin...A part of me didn't want it like I wanted to torture myself with my thoughts or felt it'd just be futile anyway, the other part of me had this split second image of me taking as many pills as I could, to abuse them. But I just took the one pill, went to my room and got some trazodone to aid in my falling asleep as peacefully as possible, went to get on my computer to distract myself until then, but I couldn't settle down. I started pacing back and forth fast and frantically, my heart beating fast, almost shaking. Eventually I did start slowing down because of the drugs, though

Another thing that had happened that scared me was I stayed up late and I felt like my imagination was getting a lot more wild, a lot looser than it ordinarily would be, even for nighttime when my mind is usually active. I felt like images were almost becoming marred, not literally, but they almost scared me. At that point I was still in contact with my friend and I talked with her and I told her that a part of me doubted she was even real, I also felt somewhat separated from myself, like I would cut myself and not feel it. This all made me feel I was losing it

Another peak for me was Saturday night, which, as far as I can tell, was the end of my little episode. I was already feeling really good for a change, closer to my usual self. There was a girl I saw on a website who was suffering. I sent her an encouraging message. A few hours later, she started opening up more to me as I suppose she probably needed to vent. Something hit in me and I was damn near preaching to her. I was giving her such inspirational and encouraging words...like I suppose I was drawing from all the negativity I had just experienced and gotten out of. I was reframing it in the most positive way possible, and I was giving it to her. We talked for a bit and I kept on, I know I helped her, and I'm grateful for that, but I felt she also helped me. And I felt she was a gift from God as I had almost lost a friend which made me feel hopeless about my abilities, and there was I was making a new one. On the other hand, I realized that what I was telling her and why I was so fucking sure of what I was telling her was because these things are things I needed to tell myself. At the time it felt like it had wholly changed me and my perspective, it was a breakthrough for me. It's another piece of what will keep me going through the negative shit, for sure. I felt so intensely filled with idealism and sureness that I was meant to survive and do great things. And sure, i've felt this before, many many times, but it was 10 am pretty soon and I couldn't sleep. My mind was rushing, my imagination because hyperactive, my heart would not slow down, I was breathing harder, I put on some music to help put me in an alpha state and all it did was wake me up even more as the music sounded louder and more consuming than usual. I shut it off, I left, the room, I started pacing, talking to myself just because I was hyper, telling my heart to stop beating. I eventually just took two klonopin and a trazodone and waited for it to come in lol

Reminds me of another night that was filled with the same idealism, within that episode, but I didn't start pacing or anything. I was filled with words and I think I wrote a lot more than I had in a while which I considered a gift. I was moved, I felt blessed for all my ups and downs as they gave me such beautiful perspective, you know what I mean? It's unique, that's what I felt, I was blessed

I feel like to control these deeply negative thoughts I have, these moments when I feel like hurting myself, and these times when I can't sleep, I need my own benzo prescribed. I just can't where I'm going currently. I have a problem with meds you have to keep in your body 24/7 and really, there are some good things about having whatever it is I have, I just can't survive with the downsides and need a way to blunt them or control them


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Also would like to say, whether I'm bipolar or not, I know something's wrong with me and whatever it is, what really hurts me the most is feeling as if I might lose people I love because for moments at a time I can't control myself. Or maybe I'm too crazy emotionally. I suppose you gotta find really understanding people and people who will work with oyu and know you're trying


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

@lycanized FWIW, you sound like you have something more intense than cyclothymia.

-----

Because it combines my personal life with schoolwork, I'm writing a 15-page literature review on Bipolar Disorder. But instead of writing it tonight, I spent about 5 hours calculating where I would sit in a particular longitudinal study of people with Bipolar Disorders, according to my scores in the BAS/BIS tests.

According to my calculations, the likelihood that I will be diagnosed with BP-I is low. Nevertheless, they didn't have many people with Cyclothymia or BP-NOS in that study (that's a DSM-IV-TR term, a bit outdated but by only 2 years so w/e), so I couldn't do the same calculations for whether I'll be diagnosed with BP-II.

This is merely probability based upon a self-report test, so I don't take this too serious. I don't even have the data to get a pure mathematical probability, but I'm assuming that it's less than 25% based upon the stats that I can see.

Of course, 52% of their cyclothymic/Bi-NOS subsample got heavier diagnoses over the progression of time, so considering that my BIS & BAS scores were average according to their entire sample (including the BP-II people), I have a 52% chance of being diagnosed as BP-I or -II in the next 5 years.

*I am such a nerd. >_<*

TBH, I'm a slightly _hypomanic_ nerd ATM. I might actually get diagnosed with BP-II if it keeps up like this, tho.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Dalton said:


> @_lycanized_ FWIW, you sound like you have something more intense than cyclothymia.


I'm beginning to suspect so too 

And I think it's really easy when things start getting better for a bit to feel there's nothing wrong at all. I've also had this thing about not wanting to waste peoples' time while also not being able to fully express myself speaking. I'm going somewhere better as soon as possible rather than just a clinic and I'm also going to a counselor, and I'm gonna write things down since it's hard for me to speak. I have a problem with medications you have to keep in your system 24/7 so I'd like not to do that unless I absolutely need to. But I've found things like klonopin to be really helpful all around. I'd like to try to use that for now


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Dalton said:


> @_lycanized_ FWIW, you sound like you have something more intense than cyclothymia.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...


Also...Geez, don't think about that shit. I mean your diagnosis getting worse. That makes my thinking really fatalistic, at least. I don't find it helpful at all lol. Maybe you'll get lucky. You still have about a 50% chance of not getting diagnosed. Is your cyclothymia diagnosis pretty new?


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

lycanized said:


> *I've also had this thing about not wanting to waste peoples' time while also not being able to fully express myself speaking.* I'm going somewhere better as soon as possible rather than just a clinic and I'm also going to a counselor, and I'm gonna write things down since it's hard for me to speak.


Are you saying it's hard for you to speak to the counselor?

If you can get to the stage of talking with a counselor, group therapy (at least in my experience) is a good place to learn that you are important enough to take time, that opening your mouth isn't "selfish", and actually can be a fulfilling experience for listeners.



lycanized said:


> Also...Geez, don't think about that shit. I mean your diagnosis getting worse. That makes my thinking really fatalistic, at least. I don't find it helpful at all lol. Maybe you'll get lucky. You still have about a 50% chance of not getting diagnosed.


Sorry, I was just having fun with math. This is just probability based upon what others have experienced. It does not determine what _anybody_ will experience, but merely suggests an estimate. :laughing: Anyway, one of the biggest benefits of predicting stuff like this is that, if research gets to the point of studying this stuff much more thoroughly, you could theoretically anticipate and plan for things before they happened. For example, imagine knowing that your mood is going to switch before it happens? That'd be a huge benefit. Anyway, this whole thing is just an inferential and *theoretical* nerdgasm, so don't take it too seriously.

The comforting side of research: the majority of people with diagnoses of Bipolar Disorder other than BP-I do NOT progress to a diagnosis of BP-I. And even for those with BP-I, there are ways to cope. Over the past week, I've started learning how to ride the waves. I'm not a master yet, and I suppose a person with BP-I would have a harder time mastering it, but there's hope! :happy:

Additionally, according to how I've experienced it so far, and the admittedly _limited_ research I've done on the topic, I'm of the mind that you always had the disorder, but it only started to noticeably demonstrate itself when you got older, eventually reaching a maximum limit, after which you might even start to feel healthier if your coping strategies are well-tailored to your personal situation. Experiment to see what works for you, and *write it down.* I've noticed that my memory gets worse especially during depressive episodes. A mood journal has been very helpful in my own 'journey' of self-understanding.



> Is your cyclothymia diagnosis pretty new?


My diagnosis is as recent as a month ago, iirc. I have been considering the possibility of Bipolar disorder for almost a year, and remember having waves of depression at least as early as 2011. Hypomania (esp. sub-threshold hypomania like in cyclothymic disorder) is hard to catch, especially in the United States, as it's often considered healthy and gregarious behavior (perhaps a Chinese with hypomania might be received more poorly, because the culture expects modesty). Additionally, I've always been close to the requirement for a diagnosis of ADD (after a discussion with my therapist, he decided I slightly miss the cut-off), so that which would have been recognized as hypomanic-like behavior was often ignored as "just having ADD".


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Dalton said:


> Are you saying it's hard for you to speak to the counselor?
> 
> If you can get to the stage of talking with a counselor, group therapy (at least in my experience) is a good place to learn that you are important enough to take time, that opening your mouth isn't "selfish", and actually can be a fulfilling experience for listeners.


Mostly I mean I have trouble speaking and explaining my thoughts coherently. I'm much better with writing. There was once back in 2012 or so I went to a clinic for depression and I wasn't able to explain myself well and I don't think they thought anything was wrong with me. The guy I talked with kinda implied I was wasting their time since so many people there had really serious problems. In retrospect, I didn't have a huge problem, but I was very very low for several months and my drive and all was lost.



> Sorry, I was just having fun with math. This is just probability based upon what others have experienced. It does not determine what _anybody_ will experience, but merely suggests an estimate. :laughing: Anyway, one of the biggest benefits of predicting stuff like this is that, if research gets to the point of studying this stuff much more thoroughly, you could theoretically anticipate and plan for things before they happened. For example, imagine knowing that your mood is going to switch before it happens? That'd be a huge benefit. Anyway, this whole thing is just an inferential and *theoretical* nerdgasm, so don't take it too seriously.
> 
> The comforting side of research: the majority of people with diagnoses of Bipolar Disorder other than BP-I do NOT progress to a diagnosis of BP-I. And even for those with BP-I, there are ways to cope. Over the past week, I've started learning how to ride the waves. I'm not a master yet, and I suppose a person with BP-I would have a harder time mastering it, but there's hope! :happy:
> 
> ...


I suppose it's just me. I think too much sometimes about what things could theoretically become and it just makes me feel bad, like I can't live my life the way I want to and it's just destructive. I can see how it could be helpful too

You might be right about the progression, tho. But I think before 2014, I never would have thought I could be BP. What I noticed about myself is that I was really intense, I had times where I felt depressive and anxious, in fact I was generally a depressive, negative kinda person, but I'd have these times when I was incredibly inspired, where I looked at things and was endlessly fascinated, everything took on new colors, words came from me with no effort at all, I had a certain kind of faith in myself like I'm meant to do something special. Stuff like that. And those are things I still experience now, sometimes more intensely, like during my last major episode. But I still know no one would have suggested BP to me then. I just thought I was weird, tbh, and I've been diagnosed with ADD before, so I put it off to that too. But these categories are things people create, mental illness is largely a mystery. If it's chemicals that create certain mental illnesses, it's not like it'd just switch on and off, there has to be a spectrum, so you're probably right. I've thought about it before, it's very interesting
And as a kid I was just a mess of stuff, very much had traits that existed at separate polls, but that might just be normal. Idk


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

We should in the end always be as responsible as we can for our own individual care. When you are, doctors usually treat you with more respect and are less likely to over medicate you. Recently I ran out of my Wellbutrin and decided to see what happened because after two days I felt better instead of worse, except for mild physical discontinuation symptoms for a few days. Then I thought after that, what happens if I don't stop but decrease my Trileptal since I am successfully off Wellbutrin. This started to worry me though, and when I went back to the doctor she confirmed that I was actually right to stop the Wellbutrin, because the reason I didn't feel right with decreased Trileptal was because I was becoming manic. I actually knew something was off, and now I am just on the Trileptal with no Wellbutrin.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

imaphoenix said:


> I'm either manic as fuck today or I am normal (I don't know what kind of crazy I have) I woke up feeling like a million bucks, got my ass to the gym (I haven't worked out for 2 weeks), no depression or anxiety, no obsessive thoughts/over thinking, - only urgency/aggression - to get shit done... and fast.
> 
> I feel like choking bitches that get in my way. I'm hyper and getting my school work done and getting organized. I feel like I am on speed - but guess what I am not on any drugs (I don't smoke, do drugs, I don't even drink caffeine). I think I will put off getting back on meds! I'm just wondering if I am manic or am I just normal? Who the fuck cares, good days are few and far between ,so I will enjoy it while I can! HAPPY SPRING! (its beautiful outside too!)


If you feel aggressive and like you're on speed, you are hypomanic. You could enter full blown mania potentially.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Illuminaughty said:


> For those who aren't on medication, how do you deal with strong and prolonged mood swings?


I somehow survived my twenties but the things that happened are pretty much fodder for a picaresque novel, from the speeding tickets to the periods of self medication with alcohol or Valium (weirdly, my great aunt did the same thing, same substnces), to the risk taking, promiscuity, and one long term intense unhealthy romantic relationship. I moved around a lot, had a lot of experience, but in some regards I am lucky I survived. Because I also went through periods of depression and agoraphobia, had panic attacks, and either would feel like the sexiest woman in the world or a complete frump. It was very difficult for me to find balance, because as soon as I would settle I would get hypomanic and do something to jeopardize it or depressed and give up for so long that I hated myself. Just a life in extremes. For a long time I didn't want to be on medication though I did seek therapy.

On a moderate dose of Trileptal (600 mg) I'm more capable of being a more balanced adult and think more rationally, but still have energy and creativity. Magnesium and flaxseed or fish oil are natural substance that help your brain function, and so are B vitamins. 

Of course I have also speculated the possibility of everything from having mercury fillings or drinking diet soda as a child, the fact remains that certain medications can help, even if your condition is from anything from toxicity to head injury, though genetics play a large part in it as well.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

DeductiveReasoner said:


> Been lurking in this thread, and so far, it seems like the best means of support I've found thus far.
> 
> I'm currently on medication (have been for about two years now). I see a nurse practitioner at a mental health facility, but currently have no therapy/counseling sessions. I keep signing up for them, but the facility never gets back with me. It's so aggravating.
> 
> I was wondering if any of you have ever had seizures or epilepsy? Apparently the two can be co-morbid. I had one grand mal seizure which landed me with an epilepsy diagnosis, although I don't really believe I'm epileptic (i was mixing a lot of drugs at the time). Anyway, as a result I was put on an anti convulsant which has helped me with my mood swings. Apparently there's a ton of anecdotal evidence that suggests anti convulsants can help with mood disorders, but none of the pharmaceutical companies want to pay for clinical studies -_- fucking FDA and shit


I take an anti seizure med and it works very well for me. I never tried lithium but I did try Depakote and Abilify. Abilify was so bad I had to be taken off of it immediately, in fact I am not entirely clear why they prescribe it to people who are not schizophrenic. Trileptal is the only medication that ever worked for me long term, and I honestly have questioned it, because I read about a girl who started taking it at twelve for epilepsy and when she went off it at nineteen, she eventually had terrible symptoms that easily could be interpreted as anxiety, panic, irrational decisions, emotional lability, etc.

Bipolar tends to run in the same families as autism, but honestly I don't think they know enough about it, if eventually they're going to figure out how neurologically this stuff ties together, because schizophrenia is the only condition that is completely different and actually shows in the appearance of the brain.


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

Thalassa said:


> I take an anti seizure med and it works very well for me. I never tried lithium but I did try Depakote and Abilify. Abilify was so bad I had to be taken off of it immediately, in fact I am not entirely clear why they prescribe it to people who are not schizophrenic. Trileptal is the only medication that ever worked for me long term, and I honestly have questioned it, because I read about a girl who started taking it at twelve for epilepsy and when she went off it at nineteen, she eventually had terrible symptoms that easily could be interpreted as anxiety, panic, irrational decisions, emotional lability, etc.


It's possible that the drug, at such a young age, became a developmental crutch for what later became extra psychological symptoms which wouldn't have existed otherwise. It's also possible that she would have had those symptoms regardless of her drugs.



> Bipolar tends to run in the same families as autism, but honestly I don't think they know enough about it, if eventually they're going to figure out how neurologically this stuff ties together, because schizophrenia is the only condition that is completely different and actually shows in the appearance of the brain.


I can see an overlap of symptoms between schizophrenia and bipolar (and there is a notable combination of these disorders as "schizoaffective"). I could also see an overlap of symptoms between schizophrenia and autism. But bipolar and autism just seem entirely different! I had heard of the bipolar-schizophrenia link, but never of the bipolar-autism link, so I searched. 

I found one article that supported a specific Aspergers (not autism) and bipolar (bipolar I?) link: Correlation of family history with specific autistic subgroups: Asperger's syndrome and bipolar affective disease - Springer

That's actually quite interesting, although I have my own doubts about it, especially because they wrote THIS in the abstract: "autistic subjects subgrouped by level of language functin"
...
"functin"
...
"functin" 

:glee: lol, either this was transcribed onto the internet poorly, or this article wasn't peer-reviewed!!! *tsk tsk* 

I should note that the article was published in 1988, and there have been other things said about a possible autism-bipolar link since then (but the articles I found were poorly written secondary sources, such as blog posts that don't properly cite their sources), but I'm kind of lazy (i.e. depressed) at this moment and don't feel like doing deep research on it (i.e. logging into my school account and getting access to a proper scholarly database).


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Dalton said:


> It's possible that the drug, at such a young age, became a developmental crutch for what later became extra psychological symptoms which wouldn't have existed otherwise. It's also possible that she would have had those symptoms regardless of her drugs.
> 
> 
> I can see an overlap of symptoms between schizophrenia and bipolar (and there is a notable combination of these disorders as "schizoaffective"). I could also see an overlap of symptoms between schizophrenia and autism. But bipolar and autism just seem entirely different! I had heard of the bipolar-schizophrenia link, but never of the bipolar-autism link, so I searched.
> ...


There's no link between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. Schizoaffective means a person is an emotionally unstable schizophrenic. Schizophrenia is usually characterized by emotional flattening, which is the opposite of bipolar disorder. Also, even in the throes of psychosis, while people who are manic might become confrontational, grandiose or exaggerate, they don't typically have the full on hallucinations and complex on going full scale delusions of schizophrenics. It's kind of like schizophrenia gives you more emotional control (probably the reason some introverted rational thinker types with severe neurotic tendencies are called schizotypal or schizoid) but can actually progress to the point of apathy/catatonia, while providing the person potentially with an entire make believe world to live in. Bipolar disorder on the other hand gives a person extreme emotional intensity and lability, and their delusions are usually "reality based" even if not realistic, they have a more concrete quality than than the bizarre notions schizophrenia can cause. Schizophrenia can cause such confusion that the person can't even process reality and can experience cognitive decline, if they are not given adequate intellectual stimulus. Persons who are bipolar usually show less effect to their "intelligence."

It's been speculated that bipolar disorder is a form of epilepsy, which is why some cases can be treated with depakote, Trileptal, tegretol, Lamictal, etc. ..aside from lithium, anti seizure meds are the number one mood stabilizers for manic depression now.

I wrote a paper about the incidence of autism and bipolar in the same families. The conditions are not the same, but both show poor emotional self control, and apparently are found in the same families.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

I would recommend YouTube searching: Nicole For Real Bipolar

There's a community on YouTube that often supports each other, and many people who are seeking mental health support or are offering it find a personal outlet on that social media platform.

There are also NAMI support groups if you seek them out, including resources for family members to assist them in understanding a diagnosis, treatment, and especially to offer crucial social support for _everyone_ affected.



Dalton said:


> I generally live by the idea that everything happens for a reason *which I can analyze*. Bipolar disorders throw that right out of the window. Even if I attribute it to chemical imbalances or whatever else causes this disorder, I have no data to analyze. I have no power to understand the reason(s) behind my feelings.
> 
> Very slowly, I'm developing awareness of how my feelings do not coincide with situations, and it bothers me.





Dalton said:


> Experiment to see what works for you, and *write it down.* I've noticed that my memory gets worse especially during depressive episodes. A mood journal has been very helpful in my own 'journey' of self-understanding.


^5 High five.

I ended up writing quite a lot of poems when I was a teenager to help me sort out my emotions.

As for taking a close look at chemical imbalances, it took me a while, but I eventually figured out that chocolate (phenethylamine or PEA), caffeine (causes an increase in catecholamines), and /or calcium (there are calcium and /or sodium regulating genes that cause issues in mood, correlating especially with bipolar diagnoses) are things that cause me to sequentially have hypomania, irritability, apathy, and then depression when the receptors in my brain aren't being flooded with neurotransmitters anymore and go into subsequent withdrawal.

Reading about genetics, genes, nutrition has really guided me through a lot of my previous confusion over the past 5 years. It's helped me a lot. It's given me a focus, something to be confident about, a foundation to return to and work from.

I'm reminded, often, that I find it almost easier to not have labels on me, I mean that I'm not diagnosed officially with anything. There's less pressure, in a way. I don't have anyone telling me, "This is what you MUST do. THIS is what's best." I just get to read a lot, study, think things through on my own, come up with ideas, test my theories, learn, adjust, and go about my life.

However, the reality of my issues doesn't escape me, ever. Every day, I have to make compromises to keep myself stable.

I have enough Schizotypal traits to meet the diagnostic criteria, but because I know how to manage myself I think awareness is enough. Does it mean I don't have mood disorder? No, I do have mood disorder, it's just that I maintain it to the point, now, that it's unusual for me to have flare ups, and there's always a distinct cause that I can trace back to, nutritionally -and- in terms of stress.

I can't tolerate copper, for example- it legit makes me paranoid, and combining copper with vitamin C makes it even worse. I know why, because it's a matter of enzymes (dopamine beta-hydroxylase) combining biochemical ingredients to produce norepinephrine, but genetically, due to a set enzyme production rate, and also nutritionally (where biochemical ingredients come from- what a person eats) my system isn't able to then break it down fast enough, it builds up, and I essentially become a suspicious, paranoid person. I can usually notice and calm myself down long enough to stop myself getting carried away, because I know that my state of mind is unusual (a departure from stability), but is temporary- that, so long as I react proactively, it's going to gradually wear off. I handle my depressive episodes with the same awareness, but I also have "fixes" to bring myself out of one, each time, that are fairly reliable.

I also know that too much vitamin B-6 puts me into a weird mental state where I'm more vulnerable to the symptom of magical thinking. It's easy for me to notice that I'm looking at things with a mystic eye, romanticizing things, seeing them through a filter that isn't sensible.

Basically, I've had problems since I was about 7 or 8 years old, or so. However, the causes can be understood and analyzed, and specific solutions can be found that aren't merely band-aids or crutches. The human body is a wondrous thing. It's complex, but it has rhyme and reason. It can be figured out. I'd rather be seduced by the mystery than intimidated by it, personally. There are explanations, yes, there certainly are. In my opinion, they're definitely worth seeking and putting in the time and effort toward understanding.


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