# Are relationship descriptions too pessimistic?



## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

What I mean by the thread title is that when you read the relationship descriptions, it makes it sound like we are only truly compatible with a handful of people, namely our duals. It sounds like any of the other relationships will have problems of some sort, some worse than others. It makes it sound like we aren't going to sync well with most of the people out there. If you assume equal distribution of types, if you meet someone at random, there is only a 1/16 chance that the person is our dual. 

Is it really as bad in the real world as socionics relationship descriptions make it out to be? Probably not. I do agree that dual is the best relationship but others can work just fine. 

From my experience if two people share the same quadra values, they are far more likely to sync with each other. Hardest is opposite quadras.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

I think it's a matter of orientation. MBTI tends to focus on the positives and ends up being overly optimistic while Socionics is much more up-front about the negatives which ends up seeming pessimistic. Especially if one is coming from MBTI first so it can seem a bit off-putting if one is expecting to be coddled and have problems be glossed over.

So less feel-good but seemingly much more accurate would be my assessment of Socionics.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> What I mean by the thread title is that when you read the relationship descriptions, it makes it sound like we are only truly compatible with a handful of people, namely our duals. It sounds like any of the other relationships will have problems of some sort, some worse than others. It makes it sound like we aren't going to sync well with most of the people out there. If you assume equal distribution of types, if you meet someone at random, there is only a 1/16 chance that the person is our dual.
> 
> Is it really as bad in the real world as socionics relationship descriptions make it out to be? Probably not. I do agree that dual is the best relationship but others can work just fine.
> 
> From my experience if two people share the same quadra values, they are far more likely to sync with each other. Hardest is opposite quadras.


Yeah, reading too much into what Socionics says about relationships is probably not the wisest decision to make. It's useful to type people and judge relative competencies and incompetencies, to notice interesting patterns and even tweak the dynamic a tiny bit (maybe), but to go off on it as a complete guide for how relationships work... nah.

I've met lots of people from varying quadras who I like and dislike mostly only the basis of character. I'm friends with several alphas and I find them pleasant and interesting enough despite being from the opposite quadra. I'm friends with several Ti ego types despite these people supposedly being extremely difficult to deal with for me because they inflame my PoLR.

I mean, beyond a point, it also comes down to how each person is willing to be a nice friend and willing to accept differences in viewpoints and such, right? Also some people have some functions more pronounced than others and as a consequence may be more agreeable.

No point in using Socionics as a way to write off certain types. Anyone can be a dick :tongue:


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> What I mean by the thread title is that when you read the relationship descriptions, it makes it sound like we are only truly compatible with a handful of people, namely our duals. It sounds like any of the other relationships will have problems of some sort, some worse than others. It makes it sound like we aren't going to sync well with most of the people out there. If you assume equal distribution of types, if you meet someone at random, there is only a 1/16 chance that the person is our dual.
> 
> Is it really as bad in the real world as socionics relationship descriptions make it out to be? Probably not. I do agree that dual is the best relationship but others can work just fine.
> 
> From my experience if two people share the same quadra values, they are far more likely to sync with each other. Hardest is opposite quadras.


Well, I get along with most people. I think that it's nice that it concentrates on the problem areas in the relations, rather than the good sides-- They are just _potential _problem areas, in the worst case scenario, of what to expect.

But, generally speaking, I'd imagine you could have a great relationship with someone of a type that you might be a conflictor for-- Simply because you're both healthy people psychologically, who know how to tackle setbacks without tension.

It's tiresome to read descriptions of personalities and matches that are all glittery and rainbow bangled, because that's not how it works. If you know what to expect, you'll know better how to deal, and how you might be misunderstanding someone that you're close to, due to having vastly different ways of processing information.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Yeah, that was my first impresssion when I got into socionics. It's like they are always comparing each intertype relation to duality and attempting to show their flaws and how duality is ideal. But I wouldn't discredit what the descriptions say just because of that. It's also important to bear in mind that socionics is one factor among many in relational compatibility. For example, I've met betas that I don't like, superficially. On the other hand, my father is my conflictor and, while our relationship hasn't been quite easy, I love him and comunication problems aren't _that _bad.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Too many factors to consider yes, though as a whole, I can't say I am overly fond of my conflictor. I have only been close with one and that went sour as the psychological distance shrank to a point where none of us could really deal with it anymore due to too different expectations of how to have a healthy relationship in the first place. None could meet the demands and wants of the other. After that point it just kept turning into a lot of misunderstandings that were impossible to overcome because explanations just made it worse, so cutting the contact was the only possible solution at that point. When it comes to ESEs, I definitely think that this is a recurring theme too. I also think one of my early childhood friends whom I broke up with after a while was an ESE as well, and pretty much the same thing happened. I won't even bother bring up my grandmother lol, because she's just a lost case. 

I am also not entirely sure how supervision works. My stepmom is likely my supervisee but I can't say it feels like it when she runs the household like it's some industry. I definitely never had any kind of position of power over her and any attempt to resist made her punish me in various ways that just didn't make it worth unless I outright killed her.


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## RoSoDude (Apr 3, 2012)

Yeah, they can read as fairly fatalistic, but if you simply read them as describing the potential points of friction and issues in communication, they're actually useful and aren't too negative. Sometimes the descriptions can seem as such, which is a shame, but it is definitely easier when examining dynamics between people (and often more vital) to point out those areas where conflict will arise.

Duality is also only somewhat deserving of the pedestal upon which it's placed in so much of Socionics literature. I personally have found duals very attractive and interesting, and I like them a lot, but I know others who aren't as much convinced. My INTJ and ENTJ friends, in particular, have noted that though they enjoy many qualities of their dual, they wouldn't desire a long-term relationship with someone of that type for a variety of reasons. I would bet that there are other factors playing into it that mean that duality isn't always the best.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

My sister is super ego to me; one of the worst intertype relations, yet we have far less conflict than her kindred husband because we have a lot in common. My best friend is also super ego to me; yet we deal really well with each others weaknesses by respecting each other and asking for advice. She likes me because, as a tertiary Fi user, I'm far more emotional and less fake than all the other men she's been close to.

My mother has activity relations with me, and I find her irritating, simple minded and difficult to deal with.

I met my duality. She was frightened of my intuitive ability to read her, and I found her tastes and hobbies obnoxious. Everything she enjoyed was the exact opposite of what I enjoy. I also felt starved for intuitive conversation, and she was far too naive.

I met my mirage (irrational) and whilst I found myself drawn to her loud intuition, I found her to be obnoxiously shallow and whimsical.

I met my identity, and found him to be fun and easy to get along with, but stale.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RoSoDude said:


> Duality is also only somewhat deserving of the pedestal upon which it's placed in so much of Socionics literature. I personally have found duals very attractive and interesting, and I like them a lot, but I know others who aren't as much convinced. My INTJ and ENTJ friends, in particular, have noted that though they enjoy many qualities of their dual, they wouldn't desire a long-term relationship with someone of that type for a variety of reasons. I would bet that there are other factors playing into it that mean that duality isn't always the best.


 I tend to take a strong immediate liking towards the duals I've come across, but I think the thing people forget about intertype in general is that intertype merely explains the problems or positive stuff about the information exchange between types, but doesn't extrapolate other kinds of factors that affect the relationship like maturity etc. After being skeptical towards duality I have to say I've changed my mind after being together with one, it definitely works, but it's not like it's automatically friction-free either. We are still people with various ideas of how to lead our lives and keep the relationship going. What simplifies for us is that we have a similar sense of humor, way of being etc, and that communication therefore goes very smoothly in that I can make some snide remark that would most definitely offend would it be someone else, but she just scolds me back and so on. It's refreshing and keeps the relationship interesting in a way I haven't experienced other relationships. I think I for some reason have ended up being together with beta STs in the past and I always felt there was something missing in terms of intimacy in those relationships. 

I think the problem is that people think that duals = always agree on everything. That's not how duality works. Duality and other intertype relationships are concerned about psychological information exchange which only means you are receptive to your dual's information but it doesn't mean you get along as people aside that. A dual with completely different values to mine will still be an idiot in my mind, even though we may understand our respective positions and how we reason around them very well.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

For myself personally, most stable and positive relations have been *business/look-a-like* or *kindred*, meaning ESI's and LII's. I have been able to have some really deep and some really funny conversations with a particular LII friend, fantasizing about stupid stuff together and mutually inventing catchphrases and so on. With ESI's, it has been surprising in how everything is such an hivemind, especially opinions on people. I think relations with ESI have had more educational nature in them, such as "wow, you can play this instrument? how, teach me!", and in overall, ESI's have plenty of willpower and focus in life, which inspires me to become more productive myself. With LII's, it has mostly been about having a very common sense of humor, like joking about really stupid stuff together and acting like goofballs together, pissing off and trolling people with more practical or serious attitude.

For *mirror* relations, it's been mostly positive, but really erratic, since IEE's are sometimes offended by me being mean, and sometimes I am offended by their last-minute-changes and not keeping their promises. Otherwise, there still is a similarity on a basic level and in lifestyle that draws me closer with IEE's.

I haven't met much of my *duals* yet, so can't say for that. *Activity* (SLI) has also been a very positive one for me, but all of the SLI's live drastically different lives, so we don't have much in common to talk about, but if we had, I would see an SLI to be one of the best types for a good friend.

*Benefactor-Beneficiary *has been quite erratic. I've usually gotten along with ILI's quite well, my dad is also an ILI and he was the one to spark interest in me towards popular science and history, that I wasn't interested in before. Relations with SEI's have been entirely funny, since they are either super clingy and interested in me, or entirely avoiding me, there's rarely a middle ground.

*Superego* and *conflictor* relations have been quite horrible. My ex-girlfriend was an LSI, and this relationship was very unstable and full of extremes in love and hate. Although, LSI's and SLE's offer me quite a bit of interest, and I am quite in a process of learning more about them and getting to know these two types.

*Supervisor-supervisee* stuff have also been super erratic. With ILE's, it's a sort of weird issue where I attempt to talk with them really casually, but in the middle of the conversation, I always say something very casual which they over-exaggerate or misunderstand and it makes them uptight and agitated, which is a shame because ILE's are really cool people and I would like to have an ILE friend. With SEE's, it's always strived towards me entertaining or listening to them, which is sometimes okay, but limits every possibility for a long-term relation. For example, SEE girls would approach me randomly, then acting like they don't know me at all the next day. Weird stuff.

About the *Quasi-identity*, I can say the most based on my brother, who's an IEI. I can actually see that we share many superficial similarities and interests, so we have plenty of common topics, but our minds work on such a different levels that it's like he's not living in the same world at all.

*Semi-dual* has mostly been really negative, if it wasn't for my LIE childhood friend, who has been my really long term friend. What LIE's seem to have in common is their very powerful and overflowing enthusiasm, that is not an Ne enthusiasm, but really abstract and more like a "passive aura" than a "cast a spell", meaning that the enthusiasm and alertness is like his default mode. Sometimes it's too overwhelming for me and this means that I often need to take a break and sometimes get away from his sight, because it's really mentally exhausting to listen him talk so much and so fast about the same topic. I have not seen the same for Ne-users, who are only enthusiastic for a very precise and defined reasons. What has been positive is that he has introduced me to many cool events and in overall being an optimistic person in contrast to all the passive-aggressive douchebags in the world.

Some words about the *mirage* as well. I can only say positive words about the ESE's - since they are never the kind of people to become offensive or unpleasant. Maybe the only problem is that the habit of ESE's is to feel casual interest towards me, and as soon as I provide a answer that is longer than 1 sentence, they become apathetic and confused, as in they want to understand me, but can't, and start thinking of what to say next without causing an awkward silence.

Also, *extinguishment*, the EIE's. I would only say that the emotional match and positive feelings towards EIE's has been remarkably warm, but everything else is horrible. They are still completely different people, who live completely different lives, and think about different things, and most of the conversation with them consists of them saying how all my thoughts are stupid and how they have a better way of solving my problems. Half of the times, I don't even think that EIE's listen to my words, but rather just stare at the ceiling and make a wild guess at what I was saying. Nevertheless, EIE's have sometimes said some stuff that have been really wise, and in overall I admire their sophistication - of course, within a safe distance. 

Last but not the least - the *identity*. It has not actually been quite positive. Other EII's have so far been kind of shut-in's, which becomes annoying for me. One more talkative kind of EII girl that I met for a very short time actually made a perfect match to me, she was almost like a soulmate, it's just too bad that she is completely out of my social circle and I probably won't be meeting her anymore.

Perhaps it offers some more realistic perspective, with pros and cons, instead of general pessimistic or optimistic tones.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

No I don't think they are too pessimistic.
They are actually accurate and helpful.
This is not the be all end all of everything, people always forget that the functions are limited.
They are as @ephemreality pointed out just how information is processed.
Hence when you meet people of the same quadra, 
you don't have to struggle as much to understand what they are saying.
The message comes trough loud and clear, wheter it is *good or bad*.
On the other hand with other types there can be a lot of misunderstanding both for* good or bad.*
With some types if you really understood the ramifications of what they try to get at, 
you would want to kill them.
BUT instead you sit there chatting pleasantly since the point passes you by completely.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Yeah, I can see what you're saying somewhat. Like when you look through the various relation descriptions, it almost sounds like you can't possibly have a healthy relationship with anyone besides your dual.

And that sounds awfully limiting.

Then again, it's not that bad that they focus on the negative aspects, because it's true that communication isn't always easy (even with your dual). I mean, I can't think of many people that haven't frustrated me at least once when I tried to communicate with them. And having different information elements probably help _contribute _to that.

So basically I think it's a bit silly to act like you can't have a decent conversation (or discussion!) with someone who doesn't share your information elements, but it does help. Kinda depends on a variety of other factors too, of course.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> So basically I think it's a bit silly to act like you can't have a decent conversation (or discussion!) with someone who doesn't share your information elements, but it does help. Kinda depends on a variety of other factors too, of course.


It may create a feeling of talking past each other or the other person never quite understanding what you are trying to say which can be quite frustrating, though. 

One interesting thing to notice is that some intertype literature claims that people tend to present their superego when interacting with new people and environments e.g. ILI will appear as an alpha SF type, which may initially help to bridge communication with people of an opposite quadra. It's only as you start getting psychologically closer that this breaks down and one reveals one's true "ego self/desires" where communication becomes problematic.

I personally am not sure how true that is though. I can't say I am overly keen on giving off some Fe impression around others though people have commented on how I may appear so nice and considerate in the past so idk.

Similarly, you may come across as your benefactor or quasi-identical to others too so meh.


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## bluekitdon (Dec 19, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> What I mean by the thread title is that when you read the relationship descriptions, it makes it sound like we are only truly compatible with a handful of people, namely our duals. It sounds like any of the other relationships will have problems of some sort, some worse than others. It makes it sound like we aren't going to sync well with most of the people out there. If you assume equal distribution of types, if you meet someone at random, there is only a 1/16 chance that the person is our dual.
> 
> Is it really as bad in the real world as socionics relationship descriptions make it out to be? Probably not. I do agree that dual is the best relationship but others can work just fine.
> 
> From my experience if two people share the same quadra values, they are far more likely to sync with each other. Hardest is opposite quadras.


Everything I've read indicates that people with a lot more similarities than differences tend to get along well in a marriage.

Good article.
One Thing to Look for in a Mate: Advice from Long-Married Elders | The Legacy Project


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

I would like to add that when you start to learn about this stuff your shadow is drawn into conciousness.
And you have to deal with a lot of hidden spectres 
that you otherwise would not even consider in your day to day life.
A lot of the conversation on this site is just people having their own little personal shadow battles.
This battle is projected upon various avatars and the label that follows it.
What would have taken years is crammed into months in this process.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> One interesting thing to notice is that some intertype literature claims that people tend to present their superego when interacting with new people and environments e.g. ILI will appear as an alpha SF type, which may initially help to bridge communication with people of an opposite quadra. It's only as you start getting psychologically closer that this breaks down and one reveals one's true "ego self/desires" where communication becomes problematic.
> 
> I personally am not sure how true that is though. I can't say I am overly keen on giving off some Fe impression around others though people have commented on how I may appear so nice and considerate in the past so idk.
> 
> Similarly, you may come across as your benefactor or quasi-identical to others too so meh.


I've read that too and I don't understand how it applies to myself. I can't think of a way in which I act Te or Si when first meeting a person. The only thing I can think of atm is caring about my presentation and my physical appearance but that could also be related to Se, or just sensing in general, and it's also very generic to the point I don't know if it's type-related. Wait, I just remembered, there's also a sense of insecurity I may get if I'm expected to give my opinion on a subject and it's too subjective and I fear not being able to back it up with reality. That could be Te, I suppose? But most of the time I seem to make my weaknesses pretty obvious, I think. Could someone really confuse me for an SLI? Hmmm


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

I actually agree that the descriptions are way too pessimistic. I can see how they ring true in some ways, but I know perfectly happy "conflictors" (where the pair didn't mind and took it in stride when the other stepped on their toes) and very unhappy "duals" (where neither wanted to hear what the other had to say and resented being pressed to change). Chemistry has a lot more to do with people's individual personalities/maturity than anything.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> I've read that too and I don't understand how it applies to myself. I can't think of a way in which I act Te or Si when first meeting a person. The only thing I can think of atm is caring about my presentation and my physical appearance but that could also be related to Se, or just sensing in general, and it's also very generic to the point I don't know if it's type-related. Wait, I just remembered, there's also a sense of insecurity I may get if I'm expected to give my opinion on a subject and it's too subjective and I fear not being able to back it up with reality. That could be Te, I suppose? But most of the time I seem to make my weaknesses pretty obvious, I think. Could someone really confuse me for an SLI? Hmmm


Well, it would be akin to when people expect me to laugh at other people's jokes or say nice things/reciprocate when they try to say nice things which I am utterly terrible at. If anything I would be more likely to come across as my quasi-identical in that regard assuming they are extremely poorly dualized? 

The only really Fe thing I can think of that I do when meeting new people is that I try to be kind of considerate and follow formality more as to not step on people's toes before I know what is socially acceptable or not, but as you say, why can't that be Fi or just some generic thing everyone is taught to do because well, it helps getting along with new people if you are somewhat considerate towards them? 

Usually, it tends to be something like person speaks to me (I rarely if ever initiate conversation or speak back much), talk about their life and I just tell them what they asked for. I fail to see how this would be Fe in itself though. I can't even comment on Si because it's something I understand the least in my sociotype. I have tried to figure out how I relate to and understand Si for almost a year now and I am still going nowhere with it.

Well, aside the fact at how bad I am at it anyway lol. My apartment is more like a wasteland that's slowly deteriorating into nothingness. It feels like I am proving that entropy exists just by existing.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> What I mean by the thread title is that when you read the relationship descriptions, it makes it sound like we are only truly compatible with a handful of people, namely our duals.


This wasn't what I understood from reading the descriptions. It's what kind of attitude you adopt towards them. My understanding was that there are several potentially beneficial and favorable relationship types, and some that cause more discomfort. Duality still has lots of conflicts that need to be worked out, starting from the fact that your base function is something your dual partner ignores almost completely.


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## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

Short answer: if you think so, let's write more optimistic descriptions  

roud:


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