# Edgy, bitchy, controversial Fe



## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

Verity3 said:


> It's funny to me how Fe gets stereotyped as being somehow feminine. (Most/all of the examples given so far have been female.) In theory there should be as many, or almost as many, male Fe users as female. I guess the statistics show that, in the West, ESTJ is the most common type for males and ESFJ is the most common type for females ...but I wonder how cultural pressures have affected that result.
> 
> To answer the question, yes, I think Fe can be used in many different ways to affect social order, including appearing controversial on purpose. But how it manifests still greatly depends on what is acceptable in the social climate it finds itself in -- i.e., Fe users will tend to act more controversial in spheres where controversy is more accepted.


That's another great argument--is it possible you wanted to come off as badass because some kids at the time thought you were too sweet and wanted to prove them wrong? If yes, that's normal psychology and I wouldn't worry about it. My point stays the same though; don't worry about what you are.


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

"Be yourself" doesn't work for Fe imo.I mean,it does,in a way,but not the same way as for Fi.The role,the people's reactions,that is who FJ is when "being themselves"


----------



## Slagasauras (Jun 26, 2013)

Living dead said:


> "Be yourself" doesn't work for Fe imo.I mean,it does,in a way,but not the same way as for Fi.The role,the people's reactions,that is who FJ is when "being themselves"



Haha, well, I gave the opinion of Fi! Ultimately though, I have the absurd idea that Fe is the majroity's 'self', whether that be the actual minority or majority. That's as best as I can describe my faulty Fi perception :happy:.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Verity3 said:


> It's funny to me how Fe gets stereotyped as being somehow feminine. (Most/all of the examples given so far have been female.) In theory there should be as many, or almost as many, male Fe users as female. I guess the statistics show that, in the West, ESTJ is the most common type for males and ESFJ is the most common type for females ...but I wonder how cultural pressures have affected that result.
> 
> To answer the question, yes, I think Fe can be used in many different ways to affect social order, including appearing controversial on purpose. But how it manifests still greatly depends on what is acceptable in the social climate it finds itself in -- i.e., Fe users will tend to act more controversial in spheres where controversy is more accepted.


ESFJ is the typical mom type. But both Fe doms seem to generally fall into "proper" gender roles. An ESFJ male is usually not motherly that way. ESFJ women can often be macho and obnoxious too. 

I think Jackie Chan is an ESFJ and Bruce Lee is an INFJ. Lee has a more intense and private Fe. Here is Chan talking about Lee:


----------



## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think Jackie Chan is an ESFJ and Bruce Lee is an INFJ. Lee has a more intense and private Fe. Here is Chan talking about Lee:


:laughing: A better caption for that would be, "Jackie Chan gets the crap beat out of him by Bruce Lee ...and loves it"!


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

A one of a kind ESFJ is Bubbles from The Trailer Park Boys. The mom the group. He is always pushing Fe, and plays the role that needs to be played. Even if it is going along with a robbery.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

I just feel like a weird Fe-dom because I can't imagine being like Regina George? I could and would be evil, but not in that way.


----------



## Blue Soul (Mar 14, 2015)

FearAndTrembling said:


> I think Jackie Chan is an ESFJ and Bruce Lee is an INFJ. Lee has a more intense and private Fe. Here is Chan talking about Lee:


That clip is pure gold. Gotta love both Lee and Chan, legendary actors.


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

alittlebear said:


> I just feel like a weird Fe-dom because I can't imagine being like Regina George? I could and would be evil, but not in that way.


Not every Fe dom(or even a 2 ) is Regina George,some are not that kind of evil
I can't speak from personal experience though,the only person I'm sure of being Fe dom irl is a lot like that lol (that infamous grandma of mine XD)

Btw @alittlebear,your new avatar is adorable


----------



## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

Alyssa Edwards from RuPauls Drag Race Season 5 is prime example of bitchy, annoying ESFJ.


----------



## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

An ENFJ friend of mine lives and breathes the title of this thread. In the best of ways, of course  Other people would probably type her as ENFP but her fire is so Fe-fueled it's ridiculous. 

To think these things are actually contrary to Fe would show a serious misunderstanding of the type.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Verity3 said:


> It's funny to me how Fe gets stereotyped as being somehow feminine. (Most/all of the examples given so far have been female.) In theory there should be as many, or almost as many, male Fe users as female. I guess the statistics show that, in the West, ESTJ is the most common type for males and ESFJ is the most common type for females ...but I wonder how cultural pressures have affected that result.
> 
> To answer the question, yes, I think Fe can be used in many different ways to affect social order, including appearing controversial on purpose. But how it manifests still greatly depends on what is acceptable in the social climate it finds itself in -- i.e., Fe users will tend to act more controversial in spheres where controversy is more accepted.


You make a very important point about the femininity associated with Fe. Admittingly, nasty Fe men came to mind, but I put them on a back burner, figuring people would focus on women more. I was unaware of this until you pointed it out, too. Fe is hilariously subconscious, so deeply rooted, that I'm often unaware until after the fact. 

I think Eminem is a great example of a nasty Fe male. I made the error of ISFP like most people, but conveying arguments spoke to my idealized Fi visions. "An Fe could never write a song about murdering his wife with his daughter in the car! That's so Fi!" Well.... how many emotional reactions was his trying to gauge with that one? @FearAndTrembling made a great case that Fe in men is rather conditioned, so I could only imagine Eminem is tacking on a hyper masculine role to fit what's expected of him in society. 

If the controversy is engaging in others, even when not accepted, just to get their reactions, even if particularly bad, I can imagine that's still Fe. You can engage in objects in unhealthy ways.


----------



## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

hoopla said:


> I think Eminem is a great example of a nasty Fe male. I made the error of ISFP like most people, but conveying arguments spoke to my idealized Fi visions. "An Fe could never write a song about murdering his wife with his daughter in the car! That's so Fi!" Well.... how many emotional reactions was his trying to gauge with that one? @FearAndTrembling made a great case that Fe in men is rather conditioned, so I could only imagine Eminem is tacking on a hyper masculine role to fit what's expected of him in society.
> 
> If the controversy is engaging in others, even when not accepted, just to get their reactions, even if particularly bad, I can imagine that's still Fe. You can engage in objects in unhealthy ways.


Yeah, I can see that getting the reaction is still Fe even when it's not accepted.

I still think Eminem is ISFP, though. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think he just wants to get a reaction; he pushes buttons as a way of protesting something. Could very well be Fi-Se on the mean streets of life. I'm not familiar with most of his work, though, so I could be wrong.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Verity3 said:


> Yeah, I can see that getting the reaction is still Fe even when it's not accepted.
> 
> I still think Eminem is ISFP, though. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think he just wants to get a reaction; he pushes buttons as a way of protesting something. Could very well be Fi-Se on the mean streets of life. I'm not familiar with most of his work, though, so I could be wrong.


I didn't mention Eminem for that reason- controversial typing, and not in the mood for a debate about it.

So maybe my decision wasn't 100% rooted in what was expected. Maybe it wasn't at all. Brb, going to pin my true motivations now.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

hoopla said:


> You make a very important point about the femininity associated with Fe. Admittingly, nasty Fe men came to mind, but I put them on a back burner, figuring people would focus on women more. I was unaware of this until you pointed it out, too. Fe is hilariously subconscious, so deeply rooted, that I'm often unaware until after the fact.
> 
> I think Eminem is a great example of a nasty Fe male. I made the error of ISFP like most people, but conveying arguments spoke to my idealized Fi visions. "An Fe could never write a song about murdering his wife with his daughter in the car! That's so Fi!" Well.... how many emotional reactions was his trying to gauge with that one? made a great case that Fe in men is rather conditioned, so I could only imagine Eminem is tacking on a hyper masculine role to fit what's expected of him in society.
> 
> If the controversy is engaging in others, even when not accepted, just to get their reactions, even if particularly bad, I can imagine that's still Fe. You can engage in objects in unhealthy ways.


Eminem is not using Fe. He may be an ISTP, but he is an introverted judging dom for sure. I actually think he lacks feeling. Even when he is talking about killing somebody, there is no passion. Tupac on the other hand, is vicious. He puts all his heart into his songs. Tupac is using Fe. Fe is "from the streets". It is of the people. Like he said, "wouldn't stop if I could -- it's a hood thing." He is always representing an element, even if he isn't there. And he is basically just gossiping. Fe is the "diss" function. It dresses you down.

His songs are a call to arms too. That is Fe. Fe is also the "shout out".

Cause it's time to make the payback fat
To my brothers on the block better stay strapped, black
And accept no substitutes
I bring truth to the youth tear the roof off the whole school
Oh no, I won't turn the other cheek
In case ya can't see us while we burn the other week
Now we got him in a smash, blast
How long will it last 'til the po' gettin mo' cash
Until then, raise up!
Tell my young black males, blaze up!
Life's a mess don't stress, test
I'm givin but be thankful that you're livin, blessed
Much love to my brothers in the pen
See ya when I free ya if not when they shove me in
Once again it's an all out scrap
Keep your hands on ya gat, and now ya boys watch ya back
Cause in the alleys out in Cali I'ma tell ya
Mess with the best and the vest couldn't help ya
Scream, if ya feel me; see it clearly?
You're too near me -

To the sell-outs, livin it up
One way or another you'll be givin it up, huh
I guess cause I'm black born
I'm supposed to say peace, sing songs, and get capped on
But it's time for a new plan, BAM!
I'll be swingin like a one man, clan
Here we go, turn it up, don't stop
To my homies on the block gettin dropped by cops
I'm still around for ya
Keepin my sound underground for ya
And I'ma throw a change up
Quayle, like you never brought my name up
Now my homies in the backstreets, the blackstreets
They fell me when they rollin in they fat jeeps
This ain't just a rap song, a black song
Tellin all my brothers, get they strap on
And look for me in the struggle
Hustlin 'til other brothers bubble -

They claim that I'm violent, but still I keep
representin, never give up, on a good thing
Wouldn't stop it if we could it's a hood thing
And now I'm like a major threat
Cause I remind you of the things you were made to forget
Bring the noise, to all my boyz
Know the real from the bustas and the decoys
And if ya hustle like a real G
Pump ya fists if ya feel me, holla if ya hear me
Learn to survive in the nine-tre'
I make rhyme pay, others make crime pay
Whatever it takes to live and stand
Cause nobody else'll give a damn
So we live like caged beasts
Waitin for the day to let the rage free
Still me, till they kill me
I love it when they fear me -

​




Rap is a lot of Ti-Se-Ni-Fe in some order. Method Man is another guy using Fe. A classic shot out by Method Man:

*Yeah, yeah, you know what I'm saying?
Keep it reals on this thing
First of all I'd like to give a big up, peace and shout out
To my brothers in the belly of the beast
Raider Ruckus, we friends to the end and back again, baby. One love
Gin Lover, Shitty Brown, Pus Head, Pil, the P.L.L
Stack DAT, Dusty, Storm, Suu! We still in here, *****
Jamel, one love, baby, Nice
Uncle Eric aka Shane, I ain't forget you, *****
Shakim, Nutt, Big Shaft, K. Fin, Big Free from Cipher Heat
All the fugitives on the run
Everybody from Rikers Island to San Quentin
And a big major shout out to my old dad who just got home on work release
Keep your heads up *******


----------



## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah, my Fe isn't like the bunny Fe. I can be the bunny Fe and I know how but for some reason it's always like "I'm nice because I need to be & I know how to be but I also know how to destroy your soul" _*I can be genuinely nice*_ but mostly when it comes to acquaintances and strangers (especially in college) it's not genuine it's niceness not kindness. I can't keep it up long though only a few months & by then my "image" is sealed. Fe's can be nice and know how and can be mean and they also know how. 

Not every Fe is like this. But Fe's like me. Like by no means am I saying this is the "evil" Fe, I'm just saying Fe can go both ways.

Allison Dilaurentis & Blair Waldor are supah exampes :3

@alittlebear I used to do the exact same thing! (and sort of still do)


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Eminem is not using Fe. He may be an ISTP, but he is an introverted judging dom for sure. I actually think he lacks feeling. Even when he is talking about killing somebody, there is no passion. Tupac on the other hand, is vicious. He puts all his heart into his songs. Tupac is using Fe. Fe is "from the streets". It is of the people. Like he said, "wouldn't stop if I could -- it's a hood thing." He is always representing an element, even if he isn't there. And he is basically just gossiping. Fe is the "diss" function. It dresses you down.
> 
> His songs are a call to arms too. That is Fe. Fe is also the "shout out".
> 
> ...


I meant inferior Fe in the case of Eminem, but I was really hoping you'd bring up Tupac because you know him best (and I was hoping the mention of Eminem would prompt it... how I knew, don't ask me). On the topic of diss, that's Em's game... in an inferior Fe fashion 

Love how you speak of Fe, so different from how Fe is typically perceived. Fe is eloquent man.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Gossip Goat said:


> Yeah, my Fe isn't like the bunny Fe. I can be and I know how but for some reason it's always like "I'm nice because I need to be & I know how to be" I can be genuinely nice but mostly when it comes to acquaintances and strangers (specially in college) it's not genuine. I can't keep it up long though only a few months. Fe's can be nice and know how and can be mean and know how.
> 
> Allison Dilaurentis & Blair Waldor.
> 
> @alittlebear I used to do the exact same thing! (and sort of still do)


Yes, I still do it now. I know what society wants - I know if I wear a necklace every day it'll be easier to define me, that if I act passionate about something people will notice me, etc. 

But for me, I almost wonder if I am Fe? Because I do the Fe things. I am kind, I affirm other people, one of my main priorities in life is to comfort others and ease tension, to take care of others, to bring happiness. But I am kind because I genuinely care about others, because it's not worth bringing more unkindness into the world so I should be kind. The world is hard enough without making my face yet another cruel mask to the world. I am hardly, if ever, fake nice... Maybe to someone I genuinely dislike I am always cordial, but even then.... I am kind because I don't want them to be unhappy. I don't know, it's weird that I am pretty obviously an unhealthy individual for circumstances and yet my dominant function - assuming it's Fe - still is not toxic.


----------



## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

alittlebear said:


> Yes, I still do it now. I know what society wants - I know if I wear a necklace every day it'll be easier to define me, that if I act passionate about something people will notice me, etc.
> 
> But for me, I almost wonder if I am Fe? Because I do the Fe things. I am kind, I affirm other people, one of my main priorities in life is to comfort others and ease tension, to take care of others, to bring happiness. But I am kind because I genuinely care about others, because it's not worth bringing more unkindness into the world so I should be kind. The world is hard enough without making my face yet another cruel mask to the world. I am hardly, if ever, fake nice... Maybe to someone I genuinely dislike I am always cordial, but even then.... I am kind because I don't want them to be unhappy. I don't know, it's weird that I am pretty obviously an unhealthy individual for circumstances and yet my dominant function - assuming it's Fe - still is not toxic.


Perhaps you may be Fe, it can manifest itself differently than mine. I'm not Fe dom. I don't use my Fe constantly as a mean to make others unhappy or am constantly terrorizing people but I do think mine is a little bit unhealthy thus why it's expressing itself in such a selfish way. I do try to be nice (and it qualifies as fake nice) because it's like I have too because or else I'd be seen insufferable. When I have a connection with someone I am nice & kind (genuinely) but when there's no connected I can't bring myself to feel it genuinely and since there's no reason not to be nice I continue to be so but it's forced.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

Gossip Goat said:


> Perhaps you may be Fe, it can manifest itself differently than mine. I'm not Fe dom.


Maybe... but again, I don't act like the villainous Fe doms. I _never_ act like the villainous Fe-doms. I can be villainous, but I don't think I've ever used my Fe to exclude someone or make them feel bad... I mean I do use my Fe to make someone feel bad when I get particularly upset, but to me my Fe makes it _impossible_ for me to exclude someone or treat them unkindly because I just want them to be happy, regardless of my feelings for them they are a person and they don't deserve sadness of cruelty. It's so odd to me that so many Fe-doms - or even Fe users - don't feel the same way? Maybe my Fe just works differently though. Honestly I'm not certain.


----------



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

hoopla said:


> I meant inferior Fe in the case of Eminem, but I was really hoping you'd bring up Tupac because you know him best (and I was hoping the mention of Eminem would prompt it... how I knew, don't ask me). On the topic of diss, that's Em's game... in an inferior Fe fashion
> 
> Love how you speak of Fe, so different from how Fe is typically perceived. Fe is eloquent man.


Conor McGregor is another example of a Fe dom. UFC fighter. Big shit talker. Like Muhammad Ali.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> Yes, I still do it now. I know what society wants - I know if I wear a necklace every day it'll be easier to define me, that if I act passionate about something people will notice me, etc.


Fe knows how to get noticed, and sometimes a hallmark card and sweet bunny talk is not the way to do it. Fe knows that's cheesy shit, and that most people won't like it. Give the hallmark card to grandma instead. Your boyfriend would break up with you. 

ESFJ is stereotyped as the sweet kitten who plays with the exact same ball of yarn every day, batting it about in the same pattern and fashion, cuddling on people's laps to make one feel welcome, and being so mushy and gushy that a string of AWWWWSS can be heard from 20 miles away. Completely nonthreatening. You could take xSFJ home to mom without complaints. You could expect xSFJ to be 100% corny and kid friendly. And yet Fe is clever, and Fe wants attention. Si knows stereotypes. I imagine, for this reason, a large percentage of ESFJ's are strippers. Hey... wait a minute. I'm misguided. ESFJs are so innocent, they'd never do drugs or have premarital sex, let alone know what a stripper pole is. Everyone knows only ESFPs can be strippers. Sorry guys.


----------



## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

alittlebear said:


> Maybe... but again, I don't act like the villainous Fe doms. I _never_ act like the villainous Fe-doms. I can be villainous, but I don't think I've ever used my Fe to exclude someone or make them feel bad... I mean I do use my Fe to make someone feel bad when I get particularly upset, but to me my Fe makes it _impossible_ for me to exclude someone or treat them unkindly because I just want them to be happy, regardless of my feelings for them they are a person and they don't deserve sadness of cruelty. It's so odd to me that so many Fe-doms - or even Fe users - don't feel the same way? Maybe my Fe just works differently though. Honestly I'm not certain.


Neither do I, I don't act that way but definitely the feelings are there. I can't use my Fe to be completely heinous because I do end up feeling bad for others. Fe definitely works differently, I do think mine is unhealthy and yours is healthier which is why there's discrepancy. When I say I can be mean I don't mean I AM mean 24/7 or even in general.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Conor McGregor is another example of a Fe dom. UFC fighter. Big shit talker. Like Muhammad Ali.


Can I pay you to be the Fe spokesperson? I'd make it your mission to break down each anti Fe missile fired at you one step at a time. Don't worry about your safety. My Fe will take care of that. 

Fe is just so one-dimensionally viewed. Aren't you guys bored of seeing Fe as one central unity, when it could manifest in so many different ways? Why does Fe have to knit sweaters for grandma all day? Can't Fe dish out the nasty truths and tear you down too? Just like how Te can't be a kindly grandma. A Te grandma would likely be a no-nonsense bad ass, but that doesn't mean that grandma can't be kindly (even if the kindness is invisible to her Fe grandchildren).


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

I am the bunny Fe I think. I related a lot to your description, @hoopla - when I talk to someone I _am_ the little kitten who cuddles up to everyone and just wants to make people feel loved. Of course I have other goals besides cheering people up when I speak with them - sometimes I do just want to make them happy but a lot of the times I talk to them to learn something, to see how someone sees the world, to better understand them and their point of view and how they approach life - but at the same time I would never not want to make them happy. Making people happy, helping people... That's the central focus of my life. Of course achieving my goals, but achieving my goals in a harmonious way. 

I wish some of my fellow ENFJs would teach me how they get that manipulative, evil queen vibe. I couldn't get that image for the life of me. I am a fluffy bunny, and I kind of wonder how it would be possible for me _not_ to be a fluffy bunny.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

I can't be that bunny Fe. That idea makes me squeemish and sick. AW HI I JUST LOVE YOU SO MUCH MWAH KISS KISS 

Over bearing to me. I can't do that. But... if you want me to be, I might. I have a weak spot, and it caves.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

hoopla said:


> I can't be that bunny Fe. That idea makes me squeemish and sick. AW HI I JUST LOVE YOU SO MUCH MWAH KISS KISS
> 
> Over bearing to me. I can't do that. But... if you want me to be, I might. I have a weak spot, and it caves.


I just...

It's different in relationships/friendships. I have limits. I'm not going to fall in love with you because you love me. I'm not going to kiss you because you want to kiss me. I'm not going to do drugs because you think it's best for me. Just... no. That's where I draw the line, and where maybe I don't use typical Fe. I have personal boundaries, and I have strong personal boundaries. And I don't tell people openly how much I love them - I _do_ love everyone, I mean, but it would be dern obnoxious if I let this side of me loose - but rather I show them. I smile. I listen to them when they talk. I give them my undivided attention. I hold open the door for them. That's how I show it. I'm not dramatic (save with my friends) about my love, but... It's there nonetheless, and I can't really imagine not being a little bunny.


----------



## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

hoopla said:


> Fe is considered the sweet, bunny function that would never do anything harmful or controversial or even have opinions of their own. Exaggeration yes, but I'd be willing to wager some people's impressions of Fe aren't too far off from my hyperbole.
> 
> So I was thinking, could Fe be edgy or asshole-ish on purpose? Fe knows Fe can be seen as cheesy and corny or sentimental. I know this, and do what I can to be seen as cool and not mushy. I had a phase where I said mean things all the time to fit an image I was adapting when I was 13. And it was clearly for the effect of others. "People think x stereotype equals y, so I'll be y to prove to them that's what I am".
> 
> So, can Fe act edgy to get reactions from people? To not be seen as lame or cheesy? Especially if an Fe picks up on this from someone else, I could see it. And I have seen it, but I want more conclusions.


Fe (especially in first position) is a bitch. Fe is a judging function. Fe isn't just interested in others, it's interested in making others comply with its needs. Your Fe makes you want other people to comply with your emotional needs. You need happy people around you to feel happy yourself? So what do you do? Do you look for happy people or do you try to manipulate the people around you? You´re all interested in people when you need them. But when you don't need them, it's like they don't exist.... untill you need them again.

It's kind of like Te, It can be just as soft as Te, but in some sense, even harsher too.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

hoopla said:


> I can't be that bunny Fe. That idea makes me squeemish and sick. AW HI I JUST LOVE YOU SO MUCH MWAH KISS KISS
> 
> Over bearing to me. I can't do that. But... if you want me to be, I might. I have a weak spot, and it caves.


I want you to be, elder. Support the younger generation, nurture them, raise them in your own preferred image.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

Peter said:


> Fe (especially in first position) is a bitch. Fe is a judging function. Fe isn't just interested in others, it's interested in making others comply with its needs. Your Fe makes you want other people to comply with your emotional needs. You need happy people around you to feel happy yourself? So what do you do? Do you look for happy people or do you try to manipulate the people around you? You´re all interested in people when you need them. But when you don't need them, it's like they don't exist.... untill you need them again.
> 
> It's kind of like Te, It can be just as soft as Te, but in some sense, even harsher too.


You nailed it, especially in the case of dom Fe. 

My mother is an ESFJ. Unhealthy, but ESFJ nonetheless, and God damn it, what a bitch. She's warm and sweet in many contexts. Most people's impressions is that of a total sweetheart. Yet underneath the surface lies a dictator. She has got to be one of the most judgmental, temperamental people I know. Behind your back middle fingers, sighs, and whispered strings of four sets of four lettered words. And when she leaves, she has to let it all out, so she gossips. She shits all over humanity when humanity isn't around. Gets in constant fights belonging in a lifetime movie. Jekyll and Hyde it seems. Makes sense... she can't hide the deep seated hatred like an Fi dom. Gotta squeeze it out.

From what I can discern, Te and Fe both have objective judgements of how things should work, but logical based for the former and feeling based for the latter. If a criteria in the external world doesn't match Fe's, I imagine it'd be antagonistic as hell.


----------



## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

Dominant Fe (and aux Fe to an extent) users project their feelings outward to their environment. As a result, they really struggle to hide their feelings from people they are around. This is a double edged sword - when they are happy they will light the whole room up with positivity, but when they're pissed off they can bring the vibe of a group down really quickly without thinking twice about it.

Similar to how a dominant Te user will generally struggle to bite their tongue and not argue with someone when they see an illogical or fallacious argument spouted.


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Btw can a Fe dom look Te-ish in sense of arguing about logic?
I do that often but I guess my intentions could often still be of emotional nature,in a way,because the focus is on convincing other person or just making them withdraw rather than on what's being discussed.


----------



## Decisions_Decisions (Jan 29, 2015)

Could ennegram not be a considerable influence on how Fe is used? 



Sent from Tapatalk


----------



## Decisions_Decisions (Jan 29, 2015)

Grandeur said:


> Dominant Fe (and aux Fe to an extent) users project their feelings outward to their environment. As a result, they really struggle to hide their feelings from people they are around. This is a double edged sword - when they are happy they will light the whole room up with positivity, but when they're pissed off they can bring the vibe of a group down really quickly without thinking twice about it.
> 
> Similar to how a dominant Te user will generally struggle to bite their tongue and not argue with someone when they see an illogical or fallacious argument spouted.


In the case of INFJ's auxiliary Fe, it works much more as an absorber than projector. INFJs find it natural to mirror their environment, even when we can resist absorbing it, which can be difficult. 

That's likely the source of the INFJ's chameleon stereotype 

Sent from Tapatalk


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Living dead said:


> Btw can a Fe dom look Te-ish in sense of arguing about logic?
> I do that often but I guess my intentions could often still be of emotional nature,in a way,because the focus is on convincing other person or just making them withdraw rather than on what's being discussed.


I've never seen that happen. Frankly I never understood how anyone confused the two. Can Fe doms even argue about logic? That would be seriously impressive to me.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

emberfly said:


> I've never seen that happen. Frankly I never understood how anyone confused the two. Can Fe doms even argue about logic? That would be seriously impressive to me.


I was going to like it, but then I read your words. We can be logical! It doesn't come naturally, but we can do it, if we are given time to figure out the matter. My parents wanted me to be a lawyer.


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

alittlebear said:


> I was going to like it, but then I read your words. We can be logical! It doesn't come naturally, but we can do it, if we are given time to figure out the matter. My parents wanted me to be a lawyer.


Sure, and I can be a spontaneous* performer, but I'm not one. And I'm rather bad at it when I even try.

It's not just about not liking Se. It's also about sucking at it, no? If you don't suck at it, it's not your inferior function. Maybe a tertiary. But it's necessary that you are naturally bad at and dislike relying on your inferior function. Because that's what an inferior function is.

I've never personally witnessed an Fe dom being logical. But maybe it can be done. Maybe.


*my actions are always planned out ahead of time, which makes them not spontaneous by definition. Even the "spontaneous" ones.


----------



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Sure, and I can be a spontaneous* performer, but I'm not one. And I'm rather bad at it when I even try.
> 
> It's not just about not liking Se. It's also about sucking at it, no? If you don't suck at it, it's not your inferior function. Maybe a tertiary. But it's necessary that you are naturally bad at and dislike relying on your inferior function. Because that's what an inferior function is.
> 
> ...


I want to be a professor. I quite enjoy using my Ti. I'm not good at it - I argue with pathos, ethos, and don't quite understand logic - but I love learning and I love thinking, pondering, figuring things out, nonetheless. I can't debate. I sometimes to to the INTP forum to get lost in their... whatever it is, however they argue (I guess one would call it "logic"). I mean I consider myself a logical person because I've rarely considered myself an illogical person, but in truth I don't understand the word "logic" any more than I do the word "value"

Edit: also I relate a lot to this description from angelcat's blog


> Ti: I really do want to objectively understand other people, but discussing them as if I do not care about them makes me feel uneasy and cold. I hate using impersonal logic or leverage against others. I want to ensure that I do things “right,” so I can be picky and fret if I make a mistake. I am learning to step back from other people and situations and analyze them freely, without that making me feel like a traitor. I am fairly good at seeing multiple perspectives on the issue at hand. I don’t like being challenged because I can’t always explain my reasoning; so I get defensive. I fear that I will never get it right, or be accurate.


Of course I only feel this way when I'm _really_ stressed - usually I trust in my reasoning and connective abilities - but I have felt this, especially lately in regards to what I would consider my Ti.


----------



## Glory (Sep 28, 2013)

I think it's like how a variety of problems can be solved with the same set of rules and concepts; you can apply the same logic to playing roles and acting. It's a game.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm shooting off the hip here.
Fe feeds off of other's emotions, correct? So unhealthy Fe is likely to feed off any emotion they can get -- the stronger the better, hence probably negative -- more likely to start fights, bring others down, etc. ... similar to how an unhealthy Se user might do dangerous activities for the adrenaline rush, Fe would be chasing the emotional thrills. 

A Fe-dom who hated themselves would want external confirmation that they were an awful person, so they would be bitchy, but it wouldn't be indifferent bitchiness, it would be constantly trying to provoke people into defining them. 

Whereas a bitchy Fi would be much more callous, it would be bitchy because of genuine indifference, because it is totally cutting itself off emotionally. It would come off mostly as Te bluntness. It might be taking out it's emotions on others, but it is not feeding off them, it is using them as a punching bag.

Or?


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Oswin said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm shooting off the hip here.
> Fe feeds off of other's emotions, correct? So unhealthy Fe is likely to feed off any emotion they can get -- the stronger the better, hence probably negative -- more likely to start fights, bring others down, etc. ... similar to how an unhealthy Se user might do dangerous activities for the adrenaline rush, Fe would be chasing the emotional thrills.
> 
> A Fe-dom who hated themselves would want external confirmation that they were an awful person, so they would be bitchy, but it wouldn't be indifferent bitchiness, it would be constantly trying to provoke people into defining them.
> ...


Perfect,imo


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

And what I meant by "logic",it's NOT about getting immersed into a subject and defending what you see as objective truth regardless of people's feelings,it can be _about_ people's feelings,paying more attention to how people are saying things,what they are feeling,how they see you,etc.For example,Te user or a T in general when retelling an argument would focus on what the other person said and how incorrect that is and a FJ would be like "She's so arrogant,she thinks everyone should always agree with her.You should have seen the look on her face,priceless!Now she's probably sitting at home crying about how nobody likes her enough to even pretend she's not a useless moron."Of course,that's extreme and somewhat negative,but you get the idea


----------



## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

lol @ getting butthurt coz some function is portrayed as nice.


----------



## Deadly Decorum (Feb 23, 2014)

crashbandicoot said:


> lol @ getting butthurt coz some function is portrayed as nice.


1. I despise misconceptions of any kind, regardless of if the misconception is a positive one. You could say I'm too serious in this regard, and I wouldn't disagree.
2. "Nice" is a subjective term, and there are various connotations that are associated with being kind, nice or sweet. The school marmy, "aw, I can't defend myself, I'm so sweet I'm forever a cuddly kitten virgin" connotation, the kind society associates with being vapid and shallow and without depth, is tacked onto SFJs all the time, and I want to prove we're more than that.


----------



## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

hoopla said:


> Fe is considered the sweet, bunny function that would never do anything harmful or controversial or even have opinions of their own. Exaggeration yes, but I'd be willing to wager some people's impressions of Fe aren't too far off from my hyperbole.
> 
> So I was thinking, could Fe be edgy or asshole-ish on purpose? Fe knows Fe can be seen as cheesy and corny or sentimental. I know this, and do what I can to be seen as cool and not mushy. I had a phase where I said mean things all the time to fit an image I was adapting when I was 13. And it was clearly for the effect of others. "People think x stereotype equals y, so I'll be y to prove to them that's what I am".
> 
> So, can Fe act edgy to get reactions from people? To not be seen as lame or cheesy? Especially if an Fe picks up on this from someone else, I could see it. And I have seen it, but I want more conclusions.



I haven't read through all the posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what's been said.

Of course Fe can be an edgy b with an itch on purpose.
Fe defines it's feeling judging criteria externally. That is it is receptive of social roles (e.g. Mother, daughter, boss, teacher, rebel, etc.) and also the appropriate behaviour for the relationship between these social roles (e.g. A teacher/student relationship has different social rules to a student/student relationship). That is there is an agreeable/disagreeable or right/wrong way to behave that places someone in the desired or undesired social role.

Fe uses this to judge externally (both themselves and others). If they see behaviour/actions that place another in an unfavourable social role they may judge them negatively or seek to adjust their behaviour which aligns to a better social role. An example could be a strong Fe user may see a mother treating (what the Fe user believes) her children poorly and may judge her as a 'bad mother.' The Fe user may even seek to counsel this mother to help her be a 'good mother' (note how there is a sense of organising people here).

To contrast this example with Fi. A strong Fi user may not care how the mother is raising her kids, as long as their is no harm. The Fi user believes it is a persons right to have their own idea of what is right or wrong for them. Fi is really only concerned with judging itself, and sensing the distance through feeling tones (a sense of agreeable/repulsive) it is from it's inner core values. For an Fi user to judge another they need to put themselves in the shoes of the other person and decided how they would react in the same situation. In this example of the mother a Fi user may place them self in that persons shoes and may realise why the mother is reacting they way she is and that she is doing the best she can in her circumstances.

Back to Fe, note how I put rebel as a social role? It could have been bitch, it could have been asshole. If an Fe user identifies with that social role, they will behave in the appropriate manner to fulfil that role. If Fe sees them self as a 'good person' and someone else's reaction to them suggests otherwise, the Fe user may adjust their own behaviour so that they are externally defined as a 'good person.' If they identify as a rebel, they will behave in such a way that others will judge them as a rebel.

Now I also want to note (and this is important) *Fe is not acting, there are genuine feeling judgments here*. The criteria is external yes, but there is genuine sense of like/dislike, agreeable/disagreeable or right/wrong. It is wrong to say Fe is fake. Fe is not pretending, rather they take the world as a guide to know what is right/wrong, and also what sort of person they are themselves.

Because Fe does a good deed, they are a good person. The observed action/behaviour is important.
Because Fi is a good person they do a good deed. The intent behind the action is important.


----------



## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

hoopla said:


> 1. I despise misconceptions of any kind, regardless of if the misconception is a positive one. You could say I'm too serious in this regard, and I wouldn't disagree.
> 2. "Nice" is a subjective term, and there are various connotations that are associated with being kind, nice or sweet. The school marmy, "aw, I can't defend myself, I'm so sweet I'm forever a cuddly kitten virgin" connotation, the kind society associates with being vapid and shallow and without depth, is tacked onto SFJs all the time, and I want to prove we're more than that.


If anything, usual xsfj is manipulative high school bitch so I dont know why your getting that nice virgin thing from. 
Ofc, you can be a slut or stripper or serial cat killer. However, I think you just wanna appear to be bad because you envy your sister or sth.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Fe can be nasty. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. You're supposed to sacrifice for the group, don't you understand. I'm not talking about sharing resources or expressing loyalty...but like, actually change fundamental things about yourself to conform. And Fe can be very nasty if you won't. People who have Fe can also act like hysterical martyrs, making accusations, reminding you of everything they do for you and everyone else. Combined with Si can become very upset about weird things they think you SHOULD KNOW, not acknowledging that it's only part of their family or cultural experience. Fe can be mean about people who don't fit in their box, again more so blatantly with Si. Or they can surreptitiously nag you constantly about what they think is proper with an underlying annoyance they try to mask with politeness or concern (I love my sister to pieces but this last one drives me up the wall about her, ESFJ)...

I think in my ENFJ bff, who I consider exceptionally healthy and strong, it manifests more with the distance she takes. Remember Fe, at least healthy Fe, knows when to come in and when to pull away, it's a feeling I can only describe as distance like what is she actually thinking. Because Hamlet can express or hide his emotions at will.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Oswin said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm shooting off the hip here.
> Fe feeds off of other's emotions, correct? So unhealthy Fe is likely to feed off any emotion they can get -- the stronger the better, hence probably negative -- more likely to start fights, bring others down, etc. ... similar to how an unhealthy Se user might do dangerous activities for the adrenaline rush, Fe would be chasing the emotional thrills.
> 
> A Fe-dom who hated themselves would want external confirmation that they were an awful person, so they would be bitchy, but it wouldn't be indifferent bitchiness, it would be constantly trying to provoke people into defining them.
> ...


Yes. They would, or the Fe type would constantly insult you in ways they thought you should change yourself, like not saying you're fat, but looking you up and down and raising their eye brows pointedly at a key moment. Or nag in such an underhanded way that it takes you a minute or hour to realize it and feel angry or hurt (if it was that big of a deal, otherwise you can just be like whatever bitch).

And yes as an Fi type when I am mean, I am brutal and you probably won't wonder if you have been insulted.


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

@crashbandicoot,I know what you're trying to do here:kitteh:


----------



## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

Living dead said:


> @crashbandicoot,I know what you're trying to do here:kitteh:


What is that ? I dont have hidden motivations or anything.


----------



## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

crashbandicoot said:


> What is that ? I dont have hidden motivations or anything.


Depends how we define "hidden"


----------



## cinnabun (Apr 11, 2011)

You got this all wrong.

Fi: Bitchty.
Fe: Judgemental. 

:kitteh:


----------



## Lunaena (Nov 16, 2013)

My ESFJ friend when I was 11 years old used to try to be mean to me and bring up things she knew I was embarrassed about in front of all her friends because she knew it would make me seem lame and uncomfortable and her cool and funny. She was also super nice and friendly to everybody, so you could never call her out on anything.


----------



## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

sure. Fe is not about being nice, rather it is more about expressing your feelings outwards. how Fe is used is generally depends on the individual, and how much love they have for themselves, and if the person have a strong personality or not. 

people with strong "personality", im not talking about MBTI types.they tend to keep true to themselves regardless of what other people are doing. so they are not threatened by someone who does things differently from them, therefore they are more accepting of others. xD


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

i think Fe can be seen this way when it doesn't agree with the majority. in other words, if one thinks the majority is slightly brainwashed and is actually doing more harm than good--and all in the name of "good" (but is completely and hypocritically falling into the shoes of those they oppose)--then Fe may seem "harsh" or "critical" or "controversial", when in reality it's just opposing something it sees as harmful. 

when it becomes "controversial" to say the right thing, that's when (disregarding unhealthy manifestations) Fe can become "mean".


----------



## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Donovan said:


> i think Fe can be seen this way when it doesn't agree with the majority. in other words, if one thinks the majority is slightly brainwashed and is actually doing more harm than good--and all in the name of "good" (but is completely and hypocritically falling into the shoes of those they oppose)--then Fe may seem "harsh" or "critical" or "controversial", when in reality it's just opposing something it sees as harmful.
> 
> when it becomes "controversial" to say the right thing, that's when (disregarding unhealthy manifestations) Fe can become "mean".


what you think is the right thing might not be the right thing for other people. Fe users tends to have a better grasp on this xD


----------



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

johnson.han.3 said:


> what you think is the right thing might not be the right thing for other people. Fe users tends to have a better grasp on this xD


well luckily, i happen to be an Fe user, so i must have a grasp on this sort of thing, and can say so with impunity... . 


in any case, i don't believe most people have a grasp on anything really, and that it's experience that actually teaches them (i mean, from an outside perspective a lot is much more clear than when a person is so close to the subject matter, and that goes for myself as well, but...): certain topics or issues can do more harm than good before they cycle themselves through, and saying something/anything, even if it angers a few people, is better than allowing others to catch up after the fact.


----------



## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I'm an Fe-user, and honestly, when I go into Fe-mode, I'm really incapable of deliberately saying something to put the other person off. (Even though, as a TP, I sometimes end up doing that anyway.) Lots and lots of validating the other person's feelings and viewpoints. This does not mean I do not have an opinion of my own; it means I want the other person to feel validated.

When I use Fe _badly_, that's when I tend to get dramatic--I actually can feign anger or emotional explosions/implosions. I hesitate to speculate on how FJs do this, but if I have an Fe-asshole tendency that's it. Except it's not even real so...go figure.

I have seen asshole FJs, though. My boss is one. She is an ESFJ; lovely person. Problem is, she acts like "everyone's mom" and can be extremely abrasive about social standards and norms. The first thing she said to me was something to the effect of, You can be seen like that, what will the customers think? (meaning my clothes and hairstyle, which were business formal, she just found flaws in it anyway) Your hair looks like a rat's nest!

Needless to say, I found that extremely hurtful and off-putting, not to mention, RUDE.

Those are my thoughts on it anyway.


----------



## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

i just wanted to say thanks to this thread, since it has confirmed that one of my best friends is an EXFJ. as an Fi user, i had trouble really grasping the negative Fe-ness in a more objective way, now it all makes sense.


----------



## ESFP100 (Apr 6, 2015)

what a miserable function to have...
I feel exhausted and hopeless for strong Fe users, when I look at the function itself. 
When you draw satisfaction based on something you absolutely have no control, (oh, I don't even want to think about it) so exhausting!!! why bother, come with us and dance a bit, hahahaha


----------

