# I'm an Enneagram 4w3 sx, and I have a terribly vindictive side to me. Anybody relate?



## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

~ So, I am usually not an angry person. I hate being angry. There are many, MANY more things that I love than that I hate. However, when I am angry, though, if it's caused by somebody else, I get incredibly cunning and vindictive. I won't forget about it no matter how hard I try. It just doesn't go away. I get progressively angrier over time, too.

I can end up so angry at whatever it is that I actually come up with plans to ruin their lives in subtle ways such as hiring hackers to hack their social media, tinkering with their relationships in various ways, ruining their social standing/business opportunities, etc.

It's like once I get into a mood I'm in it for quite a long time. I am extremely vindictive when I'm expressing this bad side of myself. I even have a list of people that have wronged me in the past and how they did. If I see them, to this day, I will treat them poorly.

If somebody else knows them and asks me about them, I'll trash them and even lie about them if I have to (If it's a business situation). I don't want to end up consumed by this bad side of me, but right now, at this current moment, I'm really fucking angry.

Any advice/personal experience is appreciated~


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Wow, interesting problem. Maybe you'd get good replies if you posted in the type 4 sub-forum. I suppose the generic advice is to look for the cause of intense emotions like this and work on fixing the root problem rather than getting carried away with the "symptoms" (vindictiveness in this case).


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

Jeux de Silence said:


> Wow, interesting problem. Maybe you'd get good replies if you posted in the type 4 sub-forum. I suppose the generic advice is to look for the cause of intense emotions like this and work on fixing the root problem rather than getting carried away with the "symptoms" (vindictiveness in this case).


Um, I don't know if there's THAT much to it. I just feel like a fool and a victim. Anytime I feel like I'm being misrepresented or taken advantage of, I get pissed.

I will post this in the 4 forum, though. See what all the other sad suckers have to say about it.


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## Potatooesunshinerays (Dec 26, 2017)

Just learn to forgive and understand. Anger can make you do regrettable stuff.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Sx 4 =/= vindictive.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Rose for a Heart said:


> Sx 4 =/= vindictive.


I'll show you the relation between Envy, competitiveness and vindiction, then you can show me why sx4 and vindictiveness is mutually exclusive.

In CN Naranjo wrote that for sx4, "Arrogant Vindictiveness is added to the complexity"

That's a reference to Karen Horney



Search for Glory said:


> Neurotic Search for Glory
> 
> Pride drives the search for glory.
> 
> ...


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

For some reason I really like that you two are talking about me.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

Are you sure you're not in the anger triad? (1,8 and 9)


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I'll show you the relation between Envy, competitiveness and vindiction, then you can show me why sx4 and vindictiveness is mutually exclusive.
> 
> In CN Naranjo wrote that for sx4, "Arrogant Vindictiveness is added to the complexity"


There have already been several discussions on this forum though, and there seems to be an agreement that Naranjo is limited, if not inaccurate in his descriptions. 



> That's a reference to Karen Horney
> 
> Neurotic Search for Glory
> 
> ...


Not only do I disagree that that describes SX 4 (as the only SX 4 there is), but the description can apply to so many types to begin with. But a few things first: "glory, vindictive, ambition, vindictive triumph" is not me. Not in the 3-ish/Se-like sense. In fact, I should say that description is very Se. Can you see an EII SX 4 be like that? I can't. Does that mean EII can't be that subtype? 

Most of these things are alien to me, though something I do confess to - and I should add I don't think this is specifically SX 4 - is need to perfect myself. Perfection in the sense of becoming the absolute best version of oneself, and the image matters a lot in my mind, but absolutely not in the 3-ish sense. 

Anyways, I think that the argument that the description of SX 4 is limited is a little old now, though. It has been done and re-done. There are quite a few SX 4s who don't relate to that, as I am sure anybody will find if they look around and talk to people.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Rose for a Heart said:


> There have already been several discussions on this forum though, and there seems to be an agreement that Naranjo is limited, if not inaccurate in his descriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah you also said that sx4 being aggressive was "complete bullshit", right? Because you were 'totally not' an aggressive person.

If I would tell you what you just said is total crap, would you experience that as aggressive?

Not even two years ago you were ambivalent about your type and a year later you ditch whatever writer doesn't suit your self image. 

So maybe you're just not entirely aware of your aggression and vindictiveness?


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Yeah you also said that sx4 being aggressive was "complete bullshit", right? Because you were 'totally not' an aggressive person.
> 
> If I would tell you what you just said is total crap, would you experience that as aggressive?
> 
> ...


 yeah I don’t take well to being attacked and they scare me. So why did you thank me only to respond to me like this? I have not interacted with you much on here so I’m confused as to where this is coming from. I think everyone is capable of being aggressive, specially when they are being attacked, or when their needs are being threatened. What an EII will not do however, is indulge in Se-style aggression. Actually, I’m not a vindictive person. If you are talking about how I’ve been on this forum, then that was because I was extremely emotionally distressed and triggered, and I have never interacted with anyone like that, so I went to the only place I could think of in order to protect myself. I wouldn’t say that’s who I am. 

I have never been ambivalent about my type. I knew social wasn’t fitting, which is why I looked for a better fit. As for “ditching writers” I don’t owe allegiance to any to begin with...people see what they see, and it’s not necessarily wrong per se but it doesn’t mean it’s complete. 

And so no I wouldn’t call myself aggressive and vindictive. And most definitely not in the way SX 4 has been portrayed. 

But besides that, if you don’t like me, let’s just leave it here for now. We don’t have to interact and I don’t want to be attacked.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Rose for a Heart said:


> yeah I don’t take well to being attacked and they scare me. So why did you thank me only to respond to me like this? I have not interacted with you much on here so I’m confused as to where this is coming from. I think everyone is capable of being aggressive, specially when they are being attacked, or when their needs are being threatened. What an EII will not do however, is indulge in Se-style aggression. Actually, I’m not a vindictive person. If you are talking about how I’ve been on this forum, then that was because I was extremely emotionally distressed and triggered, and I have never interacted with anyone like that, so I went to the only place I could think of in order to protect myself. I wouldn’t say that’s who I am.
> 
> I have never been ambivalent about my type. I knew social wasn’t fitting, which is why I looked for a better fit. As for “ditching writers” I don’t owe allegiance to any to begin with...people see what they see, and it’s not necessarily wrong per se but it doesn’t mean it’s complete.
> 
> ...


Oh I like you, even when you're a bit aggressive. 

I liked a different post, I believe just before you wrote the one I referred to.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

I take the credit for tearing apart and uniting these two above me.


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## Conscience Killer (Sep 4, 2017)

Uh I hope you realize that this behavior is rather severe and a massive red flag. Absolutely nothing to do with Enneagram. You need help, my dude.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

Conscience Killer said:


> Uh I hope you realize that this behavior is rather severe and a massive red flag. Absolutely nothing to do with Enneagram. You need help, my dude.


Yes well I was initially looking for patterns between Enneagram and certain behavior. Also this was a desperate attempt to feel less like a maniac and find other weirdos.

As far as me needing help, I would disagree. At least not help in the sense that I have some mental issue. I live a very productive life, and in spite of all my faults, I end up getting shit done. This does not affect my life in any major way. It only affects my perception of myself and leads to self-reflection when I'm alone at night.


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## Conscience Killer (Sep 4, 2017)

CelineDijon said:


> Yes well I was initially looking for patterns between Enneagram and certain behavior. Also this was a desperate attempt to feel less like a maniac and find other weirdos.
> 
> As far as me needing help, I would disagree. At least not help in the sense that I have some mental issue. I live a very productive life, and in spite of all my faults, I end up getting shit done. This does not affect my life in any major way. It only affects my perception of myself and leads to self-reflection when I'm alone at night.


 I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but do you _really_ think that sitting around plotting how to _get back at_ people who've wronged you, to the point where you make a list and transcribe each of their transgressions, and then stalk them around and actively attempt to sabotage them, doesn't impact your relationships? Because I can't imagine being able to get close to a person like that, and I find it difficult to believe that people in your life would tolerate it.


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## Full_fathom_4 (Jan 23, 2018)

sx 4 = hate. 

"Viking hate". The animal form of the neurosis itself

(and that's not a compliment)


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

bundleofraindrops said:


> Are you sure you're not in the anger triad? (1,8 and 9)


Technically speaking, though, isn't _everyone_ in the anger triad? (In the sense you have to have a gut fix in your tritype.)


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## the heart marksman (Nov 17, 2017)

Rose for a Heart said:


> Sx 4 =/= vindictive.


i am vindictive asf, maybe you're just peaceful cause of your 9 fix?


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

Conscience Killer said:


> I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but do you _really_ think that sitting around plotting how to _get back at_ people who've wronged you, to the point where you make a list and transcribe each of their transgressions, and then stalk them around and actively attempt to sabotage them, doesn't impact your relationships? Because I can't imagine being able to get close to a person like that, and I find it difficult to believe that people in your life would tolerate it.


Tolerate what? People in my life aren't people who have wronged me. Also, I do not sit around doing this ALL of the time. It is simply how I am sometimes. If people make an enemy out of me, I will not treat them well. People who have tried to sabotage my career are on my list. Although there are also people on there that I just dislike. Like there's someone on there who told me when I was a child, that I had a big nose. That's probably the only really petty one. It's how I am in other areas of my life, too. I have over 1,000 vinyl records. I've paid over 500 dollars for one vinyl. I have a book listing every purchase I've made over the past 8 years or so, also.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

It doesn't surprise me. I often think the sx-4 theme should be Rivalry/Revenge as opposed to Naranjo's Hate/Competition. It was perhaps an (unhealthy) sx-4 Shakespeare was describing in Hamlet:



> I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

knife said:


> Technically speaking, though, isn't _everyone_ in the anger triad? (In the sense you have to have a gut fix in your tritype.)


Tritype is nonsense. 4s are only linked to 1 and 2.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

the heart marksman said:


> i am vindictive asf


This is because you are unhealthy.


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

bundleofraindrops said:


> Tritype is nonsense. 4s are only linked to 1 and 2.


I heartily disagree. I find the idea that 5's are only linked to 7 and 8 one of the biggest bundles of nonsense in the whole theory.

I find the tritype and instinctual stackings offer the most explanatory power the whole thing offers.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

bundleofraindrops said:


> Are you sure you're not in the anger triad? (1,8 and 9)


Because 4s are never angry being also Frustration Triad types?

Riso-Hudson write:

"Like Twos and Threes, the other two personality types of the Feeling Triad, *Fours have a problem with hostility*. They direct their hostility at themselves because, like Twos and Threes, Fours have rejected their real self in favor of an idealized self-image. However, beause of their self-awarness, Fours are always becoming conscious of all of the ways in which they are not like their idealized self. They come to disdain many of their real qualities, which they see as barriers to becoming the self of the imagination. Angry with themselves for being defective, Fours inhibit and punish themselves in the many ways which we will see.

Of course, Fours also experience hostility towards others. They can become enraged if others seem to question or dismiss their self-image or emotional states, but they tend to express this by "dropping" people, suddenly and without explanation. The creativity of Fours can also be employed in sarcastic, withering remarks directed at those who have wounded their "sensitivities". Fours can also experience intense hostility toward the very people they have idealized. When other fail to live up to the Fours' hope of the "good parent," they may relive the original pain they felt at not being able to connect with their parents and project this onto the new love interest. They may dramatically express the rage and emotionality that they could not with their own parents, but usually withdraw before the intensity of their feelings overwhelms them or does further damage to their relationships. More often, Fours will simmer and seethe in silence."


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

knife said:


> I find the tritype and instinctual stackings offer the most explanatory power the whole thing offers.


You tagged me about it, so i'm going to give my honest opinion on it. No respected author of Enneagram brings up the topic of Tritype.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Because 4s are never angry being also Frustration Triad types?


You are just putting words in my mouth. I never implied that.



> Riso-Hudson write:
> 
> "Like Twos and Threes, the other two personality types of the Feeling Triad, Fours have a problem with hostility. They direct their hostility at themselves because, like Twos and Threes, Fours have rejected their real self in favor of an idealized self-image. However, beause of their self-awarness, Fours are always becoming conscious of all of the ways in which they are not like their idealized self. They come to disdain many of their real qualities, which they see as barriers to becoming the self of the imagination. Angry with themselves for being defective, Fours inhibit and punish themselves in the many ways which we will see.


I don't need to be linked to a quote from Riso and Hudson. I'm literally one of the few that bothers to even study them. 



> Of course, Fours also experience hostility towards others.


Yes but what the OP is talking about sounds like blind vengeance which is linked to 8 and 9w8s. I could see a 1 doing irrational things when angry as well, if they were pushed to the brink of it. The OP also doesn't consider himself an angry person which is common for 1s or 9w1s to think of themselves.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

bundleofraindrops said:


> You are just putting words in my mouth. I never implied that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is not ''blind vengeance'' in any way whatsoever. 

It's tricky because although I'm very vengeful in this way, if you put me in a room like at a party or with other people and they start talking to me, I likely won't be interested at all, but I can't tell them I'm not. I can't get out of it. Like I'll be stuck there with them suffering them forever unless they make the move to leave first. I'm also not somebody who thinks about this ALL the time like some posters have seemed to insinuate. I love more things than I hate. I'm a weird person in a way, where I'm extremely harsh on myself and others, yet I can't tell somebody to fuck off, for example, if it's in an intimate setting and they're like strangers or family members. 

I'm completely vulnerable in this way but completely invulnerable in professional settings.

When I run into somebody I dislike professionally, I tend to treat them much harsher. More so because they threaten my livelihood in some ways. One person spread lies about me around the neighborhood, for example, and I could hardly sell any art or music to my current fans. A few of them abandoned me. After I proved this person wrong, it didn't matter that much, my reputation took a hit anyway. I have since moved on to other ventures aside from the ''art world''. I still enjoy art, but after realizing most of the people in that world were pathetic and had nothing to really say that's worth anything, I now have this preemptive hostility towards other artists I meet.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

CelineDijon said:


> It is not ''blind vengeance'' in any way whatsoever.





> *I won't forget about it no matter how hard I try. It just doesn't go away. I get progressively angrier over time, too.
> 
> I can end up so angry at whatever it is that I actually come up with plans to ruin their lives in subtle ways such as hiring hackers to hack their social media, tinkering with their relationships in various ways, ruining their social standing/business opportunities, etc.*


This sounds very much like blind vengeance to me. 8s and 8 wingers often go to extreme lengths when they have been pushed to their limit.



> It's tricky because although I'm very vengeful in this way, if you put me in a room like at a party or with other people and they start talking to me, I likely won't be interested at all, but I can't tell them I'm not. I can't get out of it. Like I'll be stuck there with them suffering them forever unless they make the move to leave first. I'm also not somebody who thinks about this ALL the time like some posters have seemed to insinuate. I love more things than I hate. I'm a weird person in a way, where I'm extremely harsh on myself and others, yet I can't tell somebody to fuck off, for example, if it's in an intimate setting and they're like strangers or family members.


You sound like a 9w8. 



> When I run into somebody I dislike professionally, I tend to treat them much harsher. More so because they threaten my livelihood in some ways. One person spread lies about me around the neighborhood, for example, and I could hardly sell any art or music to my current fans. A few of them abandoned me. After I proved this person wrong, it didn't matter that much, my reputation took a hit anyway. I have since moved on to other ventures aside from the ''art world''. I still enjoy art, but after realizing most of the people in that world were pathetic and had nothing to really say that's worth anything, I now have this preemptive hostility towards other artists I meet.


You clearly care a great deal about truth like 8s but you are mostly quite disarming as you implied. I'd say 9w8 with a strong 8 wing.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

bundleofraindrops said:


> This sounds very much like blind vengeance to me.


Absolutely not. It is very measured, deliberate and very rationally applied to the 'target' of my hostility. Blind vengeance would be more like lashing out randomly at things. I would also disagree with you typing me as a 9w8, but I will at least look into the possibility.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Isn't this the type that has powerful envy going on, or is that just a stereotype?

I once knew an SX 4 who was every bit as fierce as a SX 8.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Isn't this the type that has powerful envy going on, or is that just a stereotype?


What he is describing has a lot of vengeance and anger attached. Where is the envy?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

bundleofraindrops said:


> This sounds very much like blind vengeance to me. 8s and 8 wingers often go to extreme lengths when they have been pushed to their limit.


Envy cultivates toxic resentment, and eats your heart out.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

mimesis said:


> Envy cultivates toxic resentment, and eats your heart out.


None of what he has said links to envy. I don't know why you are linking unhealthy behaviour to the 4's passion.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

CelineDijon said:


> Absolutely not. It is very measured, deliberate and very rationally applied to the 'target' of my hostility. Blind vengeance would be more like lashing out randomly at things.


Well, you haven't really explained why you get to that point. You started out with saying you don't understand why you get so angry sometimes or something along those lines which mirrors a lot of the anger triad's issues. 



> I would also disagree with you typing me as a 9w8, but I will at least look into the possibility.


Ok cool, dude. A lot of 9s don't think they are 9s, anyway. 9w8's are the more animated 9.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

bundleofraindrops said:


> None of what he has said links to envy. I don't know why you are linking unhealthy behaviour to the 4's passion.


Yeah I'm not really an envious person. I believe everybody is different and we should just do our own thing. I was envious as a teenager but only because I was a shy person and envied the sort of ease some of my peers had socially. I don't necessarily feel all that connected to people in general, so being envious of them wouldn't make a lot of sense. Did I sound envious? My initial post was just gauging how others feel about this, if they relate, etc. So I feel less like a maniac sometimes. At the same time, I'm not really getting anything out of the replies here. I don't know why people assume I'm this way ALL the time. That's a bit odd to me. I never claimed I was. 

Also, envious people seem to forget all that they'd lose and give up if they did become like somebody else. Which is all I think about when I imagine  myself as someone else.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

bundleofraindrops said:


> Well, you haven't really explained why you get to that point. You started out with saying you don't understand why you get so angry sometimes or something along those lines which mirrors a lot of the anger triad's issues.


I mention that only to say that aside from this behavior, I'm a really mellow person but for whatever reason this kind of behavior triggers something in me that makes me extremely uncaring. So I don't understand why that happens. If you knew me IRL you would notice this more, probably. I don't know that this translates that well on here or that I'm expressing it in the right way.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

> Yeah I'm not really an envious person. I believe everybody is different and we should just do our own thing. I was envious as a teenager but only because I was a shy person and envied the sort of ease some of my peers had socially. I don't necessarily feel all that connected to people in general, so being envious of them wouldn't make a lot of sense.


Would you say that you're slothful or lustful?



> Did I sound envious? My initial post was just gauging how others feel about this, if they relate, etc.


Not at all. Mimesis and tanstaafl28 seemed to though or they may just like painting sx 4's in a negative light.



> So I feel less like a maniac sometimes. At the same time, I'm not really getting anything out of the replies here. I don't know why people assume I'm this way ALL the time. That's a bit odd to me. I never claimed I was.


I don't think you're that way. I got the sense that it was pent up rage hence why I suggested 9w8 instead of core 8. You seem pretty chill to me. 




> *Also, envious people seem to forget all that they'd lose and give up if they did become like somebody else. Which is all I think about when I imagine myself as someone else.*


If this doesn't sound like a fear of separation. I don't know what will.


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## bundleofraindrops (Feb 25, 2018)

CelineDijon said:


> I mention that only to say that aside from this behavior, I'm a really mellow person but for whatever reason this kind of behavior triggers something in me that makes me extremely uncaring. So I don't understand why that happens. If you knew me IRL you would notice this more, probably. I don't know that this translates that well on here or that I'm expressing it in the right way.


This is exactly like something my 9w8 friend would say. It's the switch from self-effacing 9 to the vengeful 8. I'm guessing it feels kinda like a possession when it happens?


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Too many different posts to try to quote them all but I'm also wondering about where the evidence to "envy" is, in the OP.

I do think that people tend to misunderstand the meaning of envy, or at least have a limited understanding of it. In my case, it's so powerful for me - but it's not usually (or at least not always) a direct sort of envy where I covet personal belongings or status - most of the time. It's more like, "Why can't *I* have those things too", but wanting my own version, something that stands out beyond what those people have, something more fitting. I never want to be anyone else. 

I just want to be different, in a way that stands out and in a way that authentic and undeniable. I feel like others often just appear a certain way for superficial reasons, and that if people could really understand the depth my own experience or capacities or whatever the hell - then I would be loved. I don't want to be loved as much as they are loved. I want to be loved more fully and genuinely and deeply, and I believe my only route to get there is through something... more authentic and immovable. 

So in cases where I *do* resent others and want to watch them bring themselves down, it's not because I actually want them to ~suffer~, which is just, sick and doesn't do anything for me. I just hate lies, and unfair gain at the expense of others. I want... existing myths and falsities to reveal themselves. I want to force everyone to face the truth they have been avoiding or lying to themselves about. I want to leave no room for pathetic games, for everyone to see what *really is*, be unable to deny it, be unable to do anything but appreciate it fully (the good, the bad, the ugly). And when that entails revealing frauds as frauds, I'm satisfied.

People can play superficial little power games all they want. The best sophist, the best at rhetoric, often "wins" the "prize". I don't care about winning any sort of arbitrary prize, only if it has deep and personal meaning to me as a person. I don't just want to be the best for the sake of being the best. I don't want to play into power games for admiration. I want to strip away the options from everyone so they can no longer continue using power games and arbitrary labels to hurt the more vulnerable and line their egos. 

I'll never win superficial battles. I don't fit in. I'll always be behind the crowd if that's how we're making our assessments. I want true, hard word to be recognized - I want potential and amazing talent to be recognized with no other end game. I want sincerity and pure intentions to win and shape someone's world for them. 

And when someone is *truly* better than I am, which happens a lot, I will admire them and be fine without trying to bring them down. I'll use them as a role model or an example, and try to find a way to truly grow and shine and set myself apart where I deserve it.


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