# Relations of Supervision: The Wedding Edition



## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

(Lol.. it said to put an interesting title to get more results.. ... I hope to get some interesting responses, anyway)

Okay, this thread is slightly prompted by my brother's recent engagement. He is an LII marrying an SLE. He's always been reserved and cautious when it comes to engaging romantically with the opposite sex... and even tho she's an SLE, I'm am FREAKIN' THRILLED!! Okay, sorry. It's just that as the oldest, I feel like I've been waiting for _forever_ for one of my siblings to get hitched and oh... sorry, getting off track. Anywho, yes, so relations of supervision. It seems like I know quite a few people who are in one, and who are married. ENTj with ISTp, ENFp with INTj, ESFp with ISTj, my brother as an example. And they've been married for years.

What do you all think of them? Personally, besides duals and activities, I find supervision relationships to be one of the most enjoyable. Sometimes, if I've known the SEE long enough, we even start to cover for each other in a way.. almost, but not quite like duals. 

Would you ever marry your supervisor/supervisee? Also, what are some good gifts for an SLE sister-in-law (it is the holidays, after all!)?


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

The SLE-ESI ones don't seem to be very happy: SLE-ESI supervision relations ESTp and ISFj

I'm fine with my supervisors if I get a chance to spend some time away from them.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

My first real relationship was with an IEE. It was really stupid, hasty and lustful of me (well, both of us, but I've never held high expectations for her in that regard) and didn't end well. 

le siigh


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

HKitty said:


> Would you ever marry your supervisor/supervisee? Also, what are some good gifts for an SLE sister-in-law (it is the holidays, after all!)?


Get them something tangible, like alcohol.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Nonsense said:


> Get them something tangible, like alcohol.


or a ski mask and a set of handcuffs, also very tangible things


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

0_0 a _Supervision marriage? _Dear god. No, especially not as the Supervisee. 

I will say that some Supervisors work out okay as casual friends, and I tend to like my Supervisees for the most part. But in a marriage, where you are at close psychological distance with your partner, I don't think I'd be able to cope at least as the Supervisee. The feeling of never having what you say valued makes you feel incredibly worthless after awhile (though not at first). And, the irritation once you realize that the things your Supervisor says aren't always immediately better or even true. 

Back in college, I was crushed by an EIE I really liked (before I knew about type). It _seemed _like everything she said was funny, cute, or the same thing I was trying to arrive at - at the expense of taking my own opinion seriously as-is and maintaining it. We were very close. But at the end of the day I saw her and the (pretty large) amount of time we spent together as having a lot of meaning, and she saw it as just another thing to do/to be dumped when something more alluring comes along. That feeling carries through the relationship, and it begins to press you after awhile, once you realize that your partner isn't really helped by what you say - only resounds at times. 

That said, Supervision is hard to break too. But the recurring theme I have heard (literally) from the Sup couples and friends I know is that the Supervisor after awhile grows to think they could live with or without the Supervisee, and the Supervisee knows they need the Supervisor. It's kind of up to the Supervisor to decide whether to do their own thing or, in cases of long marriage, be committed.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

I don't know multiple Supervision relationships, but I see a lot of people getting attracted to their Supervisor. I especially see this with IEI-LIE, EII-SEE, SEE-LSI, EIE-SEI and SLI-ESE. Generally I get the impression that the Supervisees think their Supervisor needs them, though beneath that sentiment is a desire to get praise from their Supervisor and validate themselves in others' eyes that way. It never ends well an it's always painful to watch.

As for whether I would marry my Supervisor or not... Definitely not. SEEs point out my flaws in a fair way, and while I think their energy is attractive, after a while I start to find them kind of sad. And I can't see myself marrying an ILE either. I like them, but I just can never get to a point where I feel close to them psychologically. Like we have fun, but there's nothing substantial there. And as soon as I stop being "fun" for any reason, they don't stick around. Feels rather empty at the end of the day.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm going to have to go with 'no' on supervision marriages. The only exception being if both parties already know and understand that they're entering a supervisory relationship and the 'supervisor' agrees not to psychologically harm the 'supervisee'. Although that agreement will likely only last until the couples' first fight.

That said, I think LIE-IEI, ESI-SLE, ESE-SLI, EII-ILE, EIE-ILI, LII-IEE and LSE-SEI relationships tend to be fairly common. Although now that I know Socionics, I think I'd be more apt to keep IEIs as just friends who occasionally seek my advice and SLIs as people whom I tend to admire for their independence and can likely teach me a thing or two. 

Not sure how I'd feel about being in a relationship with a female SLI... I'd be worried that a long-term relationship with one would be exploitative and not in my favor. Although I am aware of a few male LIE with female SLI marriages and they seem like a couple straight out of the 70s... kind of old fashioned. Not necessarily bad if you're into that kind of stuff, but a relationship with someone intra-quadra would be much more modern and easier for both people involved.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

I often get a feeling that when the Supervisor chooses to become close with the Supervisee that this often happens in situations when Supervisee has something valuable to offer that the Supervisor uses as a launching pad for himself or herself (for example, social connections, promise of career advancement, material benefits and kickbacks). Once that something is gone or depleted, the Supervisor has no substantive reason to hang around and once a more attractive option arrives, the Supervisee is left to gather the dust. Unless the Supervisee has that something extra to offer to the Supervisor, the relationship is unstable and fleeting as the Supervisor turns his attention elsewhere leaving the Supervisee insecure and unsure of where they stand. Romantic relationships, if they occur, from my point of view often have a significant superficial attraction and lust motivation involved.

I think it's possible to have a decent Supervision marriage if there are matching interests, values, goals, enneagram and instinct types, and other rewarding components to the relationship that could in combination outweigh socionics supervision, but such combinations are rare to encounter.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Figure said:


> That said, Supervision is hard to break too. But the recurring theme I have heard (literally) from the Sup couples and friends I know is that the Supervisor after awhile grows to think they could live with or without the Supervisee, and the Supervisee knows they need the Supervisor. It's kind of up to the Supervisor to decide whether to do their own thing or, in cases of long marriage, be committed.


I've heard that the Supervisee's self-esteem is usually undercut by spending years in such relations, which would explain this, that the Supervisor feels they can stay or leave at any moment, while the Supervisee latches on to them feeling insecure in his or her own abilities and undervaluing his or her attractiveness.


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## RoSoDude (Apr 3, 2012)

I have to contrast with some of the things said about the Supervisor being the one in control of commitment. I was in a relationship with an IEE for two years, and she was the one to end it over a month ago. It is true that she had constant _fear_ of my interest waning and of me "finding someone better", but I never did anything to substantiate such insecurities. In fact, she would often speak of her interest in other people, while I never took any action that could be construed as unfaithful. It is true that she expressed need of me while I rarely did the same (mostly because I find such behavior unhealthy and not characteristic of a healthy relationship), but I wouldn't say that any actual lack of interest on my part was what lead to the dissolution of the relationship. It was rather that such a dynamic was perceived and allowed to perpetuate just by the nature of our personalities. I wouldn't necessarily infer anything about the actual interest that exists in supervision relationships in general. It can be very different than what one would assume.

With that said, I don't think I can agree that it is "up to the Supervisor" as @Figure and @cyamitide said to be committed and maintain the relationship. Rather, I'd say that it often seems to the Supervisor that there are unreasonable and unanticipated expectations from the Supervisee, which may cause them, in some cases, to just give up. This can especially become a problem when communications problems are exacerbated in the supervision relationship. In my case, I felt that my IEE partner would often fail to understand the things I was telling her about my own needs or why I felt her expectations were unwarranted. The Supervisee may see this as "failing to commit" or having the power to decide whether or not the relationship will proceed, but I often felt equally powerless in the whole thing, because there was so little mutual recognition of one another's needs. For me it was like trying to explain Physics to someone in English who only understands Chinese. For her it probably seemed like I was arbitrarily deciding not to teach her Physics at all, when there was really a language barrier that was never recognized because I would so rarely speak.

I find that the Supervision relationship is especially volatile, where both good and bad moments are circular and self-reinforcing, while still being states of unstable equilibrium. When the IEE and I were together during good times, we were very happy and very much enjoyed one another's presence, and feelings of closeness would escalate to the point of unease, such that any descent from that point, which I see as inevitable, would cause problems. During conflict I withdraw, which she would read as an increased distance between us, which she would try to close by becoming even more attached, which I resisted by further detaching. I believe the relationship was only able to last for such a long time by the fact that we lived a good distance apart, and were not able to spend long stretches of time in close proximity, and as such never saw the major problems that would otherwise occur. Because we saw each other with less frequency, persistent problems dissolved more than they were allowed to accumulate, and we misunderstood that as some kind of harmony.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

I think my parents are LSE and SEI. Their relationship is fine but they tend to argue often and my dad can sometimes put my mum and me under stress, I'm not sure exactly what it is he does but it puts a lot of pressure on us. They find faults in each other that I don't always see, as if they were reading things from their actions different to me. Now that I think about it, my dad seems to have a short temper with my mum and gets quite irritated by her mistakes and I actually do the same with my ESE aunt. Interesting, I wonder if that means anything.
Me, I don't have any experience with LIEs so I can't really say. I don't think I'd ever be seriously interested in an ESE though.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

If I happened to fall in love with my supervisee or supervisor I could picture myself in these relations. With LIEs the major roadblock to any relationship has been that I don't feel like I can trust them. They can be cordial, good-natured, entertaining, but when things get rough they turn calculating, callous, crafty and unforgiving. There is something in the back of their mind that I'm always aware of that make them feel devious and likely to hurt me, then I want to keep distance from them. Must be their Te.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

cyamitide said:


> If I happened to fall in love with my supervisee or supervisor I could picture myself in these relations. With LIEs the major roadblock to any relationship has been that I don't feel like I can trust them. They can be cordial, good-natured, entertaining, but when things get rough they turn calculating, callous, crafty and unforgiving. There is something in the back of their mind that I'm always aware of that make them feel devious and likely to hurt me, then I want to keep distance from them. Must be their Te.


What about ESEs? The ESEs and IEIs I know in real life seem to get along suspiciously well. For instance, in a group that includes me, an ESE and an IEI, I usually feel like I'm the odd one out. The ESE is polite to me but never makes any real effort to get to know me while the IEI and I grind each other's gears and I do my best to work independently from both of them. But I never see them experiencing any unusual tension.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Wow, you guys have brought a lot of good points!


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> The SLE-ESI ones don't seem to be very happy: SLE-ESI supervision relations ESTp and ISFj


My mom (SEE) and dad (LSI) have been married 30 years now, and I have to admit that there marriage consisted of a lot of fighting and ignoring/being away from each other, if not most of it. It's only been in the last 5 or so years have they seem to settle down and I suppose a lot of these relationships have conflict in them. I mean the number of times my dad threatened divorce.... but, here they are, 30 years later, and I suppose it has a lot to do with this:




Figure said:


> *That said, Supervision is hard to break too.* But the recurring theme I have heard (literally) from the Sup couples and friends I know is that the Supervisor after awhile grows to think they could live with or without the Supervisee, and the Supervisee knows they need the Supervisor. It's kind of up to the Supervisor to decide whether to do their own thing or, in cases of long marriage, be committed.


I guess that's why my SEE mom stayed...? IDK.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Cantarella said:


> I don't know multiple Supervision relationships, but I see a lot of people getting attracted to their Supervisor. I especially see this with IEI-LIE, EII-SEE, SEE-LSI, EIE-SEI and SLI-ESE. Generally I get the impression that the Supervisees think their Supervisor needs them, though beneath that sentiment is a desire to get praise from their Supervisor and validate themselves in others' eyes that way. It never ends well an it's always painful to watch.
> 
> As for whether I would marry my Supervisor or not... Definitely not. SEEs point out my flaws in a fair way, and while I think their energy is attractive, after a while I start to find them kind of sad.


IDK if I've ever felt that an SEE _needs_ me, probably, more likely, the opposite is true. That's certainly how I felt growing up with my SEE mom. But I have felt a certain desire for them to recognize me and lavish attention on me.

Criticize in a fair way? Maybe male SEEs, but I've always felt when a female SEE criticizes/points out my flaws, it's b/c they're angry about something and they need to lash out onto someone. I wore pink mascara the other day and an SEE was right in my face saying "What are you wearing? It's ugly, it's ugly!" Her face was all scrunched up, and she was visibly angry... and I'm like... okay? Or just b/c they can.

And yet... I can't stop my attraction to them.. friendship-wise anyway.





Cantarella said:


> And I can't see myself marrying an ILE either. I like them, but I just can never get to a point where I feel close to them psychologically. Like we have fun, but there's nothing substantial there. *And as soon as I stop being "fun" for any reason, they don't stick around. *Feels rather empty at the end of the day.


This. At least at first anyways. After the relationship gets more comfortable, it doesn't always have to be "fun", but it does still have to have some emotional element to it though.

BTW, what do you like more... being the supervisor or the supervisee? I find that being the supervisor can actually be quite draining at times, whereas as the supervisee I'm cared for and sort of "rescued", which is nice at times. What's been your experience?


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> I often get a feeling that when the Supervisor chooses to become close with the Supervisee that this often happens in situations when Supervisee has something valuable to offer that the Supervisor uses as a launching pad for himself or herself (for example, social connections, promise of career advancement, material benefits and kickbacks). Once that something is gone or depleted, the Supervisor has no substantive reason to hang around and once a more attractive option arrives, the Supervisee is left to gather the dust. Unless the Supervisee has that something extra to offer to the Supervisor, the relationship is unstable and fleeting as the Supervisor turns his attention elsewhere leaving the Supervisee insecure and unsure of where they stand. Romantic relationships, if they occur, from my point of view often have a significant superficial attraction and lust motivation involved.
> 
> I think it's possible to have a decent Supervision marriage if there are matching interests, values, goals, enneagram and instinct types, and other rewarding components to the relationship that could in combination outweigh socionics supervision, but such combinations are rare to encounter.


Must have been lust with the SEE that recently courted me, lol. But this is actually an interesting observation. I know with one ILE, it's somewhat true. I'm new to the area, and since we work together and are about the same age, I was trying to get friendly with him in the hopes that he would invite me out, and maybe I would meet some people through him. Alas, it's been a slow go, and it's seems he's somewhat of a workaholic, so not much of a social life, at least from what I've been learning of him.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

HKitty said:


> IDK if I've ever felt that an SEE _needs_ me, probably, more likely, the opposite is true. That's certainly how I felt growing up with my SEE mom. But I have felt a certain desire for them to recognize me and lavish attention on me.
> 
> Criticize in a fair way? Maybe male SEEs, but I've always felt when a female SEE criticizes/points out my flaws, it's b/c they're angry about something and they need to lash out onto someone. I wore pink mascara the other day and an SEE was right in my face saying "What are you wearing? It's ugly, it's ugly!" Her face was all scrunched up, and she was visibly angry... and I'm like... okay? Or just b/c they can.
> 
> ...


I guess I mostly notice the sentiment I mentioned about being needed when the Supervisee is irrational and the Supervisor is rational. I see it a LOT with SEEs + LSIs and IEEs + LIIs, but I also see it with IEIs + LIEs and ILEs + EIIs.

Generally I feel that SEEs have such weak Ni that I have to constantly babysit them, but they don't appreciate this attention and actively resist it. When I make forecasts about the future in a "warning, danger" sort of way like I would with a Je-dom, instead of being like, "good call, gonna take care of that now" SEEs react with indignation or apathy and treat me like a smug, spiteful bitch. They would rather I weather their poor judgment and go around cleaning up their messes, but I never feel like they truly appreciate me for doing so unless I do it literally all the time, and I'm not keen on the idea of being their bitch either.

I admire SEEs' can-do attitude and this is something I've been working for a long time to develop in myself. I'm very hesitant and a procrastinator by nature, but I when I have a goal and a means to achieve it I can motivate myself towards that goal. So yes, if I let myself be blind to their fumbles I can easily find myself admiring SEEs in general, but if we're in close contact often then their mistakes stand out too much for me to be seduced.

As for _being_ the Supervisor, I honestly don't really enjoy it because I genuinely like ILEs and hate the idea of "supervising" anyone. Their Fe HA makes me feel a bit insensitive to be honest. At the same time, I get frustrated because I feel like most Fe types don't pay real attention to me (it's all about "us," but really it's about them), and ILEs are no exception. They have no idea who I am, what I like and why, or what I want, and are always trying to get me excited about what THEY think everyone wants. I actually think ILEs are, in many ways, superior to me (more intelligent, more energetic, more ambitious, and more insightful in many ways) but their Fe sees what it wants, and that can make options for interaction with them feel rather limited. Getting close to them feels next to impossible.


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