# holy shit! I'm starting to get fat!



## sly

Hello there!

Got a little problem, in little over a year I gained fat and lost a natural six pack(used to be scrawny). My food habits never changed, hamburgers, sugar water and little exercise is starting to affect me now that I am an adult. 

Now that I have realized that something has to be done,* what should be my very first steps in gaining consciousness about what I eat and do?* I'm overwhelmed by the internet, too much commercial bullshit on one hand and too much technical(or should I say biological?) information on the other. 

At first I liked it, playing beats on my naked belly because it appeared to have grown, but now it ain't funny anymore and I want to get rid of it. To make matters worse, I can't skip meals or fast due to some medication that will knock me out if I do.

Alright PerC, let's hear it.

Currently my weight is 73kg. Last year it was 65.


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## DiamondDays

So do you want to get fit, or do you just want to loose weight?

If you just want to loose weight you should eat less move more, simple as that. Calories in need to be less than calories out.

If you want to get fit you should start with some kind of resistance training program, i would recommend something like starting strength or stronglifts, and start a moderate cardio regimen. Maybe jog twice a week or something. This coupled with eating healthy high protein foods in moderate amounts will make you fit in a matter of months.


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## All in Twilight

How old are you? Your metabolism changes when you get older. Have you thought of that?


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## bluekitdon

Good advice from @_DiamondDays_, depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want that six pack back you'll have to work at it. It gets harder and harder as you get older as @_All in Twilight_ mentioned, that's why you don't see a lot of 40 year old men with a six pack.

For straight diet tracking/weight loss, I would recommend Free Calorie Counter, Diet & Exercise Journal | MyFitnessPal.com. They have an app for your phone too and a good user community for free. Pretty easy way to track what you are currently eating and see what things you might be able to change to make the biggest impact. Sometimes something as simple as doing something like ordering the small fry or apple slices instead of the large fry will make a big change over time. Good luck!


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## DiamondDays

I want to add to my first post that the reason why i a specified moderate cardio regimen is because if you are a total noob you should not be doing any more than that, even if cardio is to be the focus of your fitness future. The resistance training programs i recommended are ones that start out at the very bottom. They assume you are a weakling and that is a good thing because it builds good habits and allows your body to adjust to the workload you are putting it through gradually. You should take the same approach to cardio. Always start out at a level that is below what you can comfortably handle. Fitness is not a sprint, it is a marathon, and by easing into it you give your body the best chance to be able to adapt to the strain.


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## sly

DiamondDays said:


> I want to add to my first post that the reason why i a specified moderate cardio regimen is because if you are a total noob you should not be doing any more than that, even if cardio is to be the focus of your fitness future. The resistance training programs i recommended are ones that start out at the very bottom. They assume you are a weakling and that is a good thing because it builds good habits and allows your body to adjust to the workload you are putting it through gradually. You should take the same approach to cardio. Always start out at a level that is below what you can comfortably handle. Fitness is not a sprint, it is a marathon, and by easing into it you give your body the best chance to be able to adapt to the strain.


Can you link me to something with trustworthy with a moderate cardio regimen(to be honest, I have no idea what this means). Isn't resistance the same as cardio?



bluekitdon said:


> Good advice from @_DiamondDays_, depends on what you want to accomplish. If you want that six pack back you'll have to work at it. It gets harder and harder as you get older as @_All in Twilight_ mentioned, that's why you don't see a lot of 40 year old men with a six pack.
> 
> For straight diet tracking/weight loss, I would recommend Free Calorie Counter, Diet & Exercise Journal | MyFitnessPal.com. They have an app for your phone too and a good user community for free. Pretty easy way to track what you are currently eating and see what things you might be able to change to make the biggest impact. Sometimes something as simple as doing something like ordering the small fry or apple slices instead of the large fry will make a big change over time. Good luck!


Nothing is for free. Sacrificing privacy for a calorie counter seems like a bad deal for me, sorry.



All in Twilight said:


> How old are you? Your metabolism changes when you get older. Have you thought of that?


I am around 25. I guess this thing called ''metabolism'' must be the evildoer huh? Does that mean I can't live on unlimited pizza and soda anymore? Do I have to eat green stuff like other people?



DiamondDays said:


> So do you want to get fit, or do you just want to loose weight?
> 
> If you just want to loose weight you should eat less move more, simple as that. Calories in need to be less than calories out.
> 
> If you want to get fit you should start with some kind of resistance training program, i would recommend something like starting strength or stronglifts, and start a moderate cardio regimen. Maybe jog twice a week or something. This coupled with eating healthy high protein foods in moderate amounts will make you fit in a matter of months.


I want to be fit and loose weight. Or maybe even transform this fat into muscle(if that is possible).

Could you explain what a moderate cardio regimen is? 
High protein foods? You mean like carrots?

What i need most is some structure man, something I can hold on to. I recently bought a mountainbike and aim to do 10km a day biking, is that okay too?


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## bluekitdon

sly said:


> Nothing is for free. Sacrificing privacy for a calorie counter seems like a bad deal for me, sorry.
> 
> What i need most is some structure man, something I can hold on to. I recently bought a mountainbike and aim to do 10km a day biking, is that okay too?


Good plan on biking, find some physical activity you enjoy doing and do that. If you don't want to use myfitnesspal or something similar (I've used myfitnesspal & never had any problems) then go old school and try just writing down your calorie counts for awhile. Look for foods with high calories to cut down on like chips, fries, etc, and eat more fruits & vegetables. Shoot to exercise at least a half hour a day and you should be just fine. 

Don't go too overboard at the beginning, people tend to go all in with 3-4 hours at the gym, cut out all sweets, eat nothing but tofu & water, or whatever and just end up burning themselves out in my experience. I've always found small changes stick best when trying to change habits. Try making a small change in your diet and exercise program, give it a month or so to stick, and then try another small change.


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## DiamondDays

sly said:


> Can you link me to something with trustworthy with a moderate cardio regimen(to be honest, I have no idea what this means). Isn't resistance the same as cardio?


Cardio = running, biking, swimming etc. 
Resistance training = Strength training. Body weight, free weights or machines.

So no resistance is not the same as cardio. Resistance build strength primarily. Cardio build endurance primarily.

StrongLifts: Gain Muscle And Strength While Losing Fat StrongLifts is a good place to begin for building muscle, cardio you're on your own because i have about zero clue on how to structure a fitness regime that is built around cardio instead of building muscle. What i do is i take long walks, but things i used to do was swim and bike on a stationary bike for 30 min 2-3 days a week.

But i know nothing about actually focusing on cardio, i think bluekitdon knows more about that.



> I want to be fit and loose weight. Or maybe even transform this fat into muscle(if that is possible).
> 
> Could you explain what a moderate cardio regimen is?
> High protein foods? You mean like carrots?
> 
> What i need most is some structure man, something I can hold on to. I recently bought a mountainbike and aim to do 10km a day biking, is that okay too?


No you can not "transform" fat into muscle. What you can do is build muscle while at the same time burning fat. This is very hard tho, and your gains will be suboptimal. I would recommend you start out on say stronglifts 5x5, follow that, eat well and do your mountainbiking 2-4 times a week. No more is needed, altho 10km doesnt sound much at all if the terrain you are biking in is the usual dutch terrain. I used to bike more than twice that only to get to and from the gym. Not saying you should go crazy here, but 10km is 20 min at a leisurely pace. Or at least it will be after the first couple months of doing it.

And no carrots are almost completely devoid of protein. Protein is found in meat and dairy mainly. It is what builds muscle. It is very important to get enough of, especially if you are cutting fat, in order to prevent unnecessary muscle loss and in order to be able to build muscle at all.


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## Indiana Dan

The most important factors in getting fit/ healthy are
a. Getting 'deep sleep' stage 4. Magical things happen during deep sleep, including burning off extra fuel that you have eaten. Weed is e biggest offender of deep sleep, but caffeine has significant impeding effects as well. Actually all substances that people use for pleasure will significantly impede stage 4 sleep... Very important to know.
Deep sleep will also fully repair the body and mind to take on more exercise, not to mention everything else.

b. making sure damn near everything you eat is a good source of fiber, both soluble and insoluble. Fiber allows for a smooth metabolism, rather than blood sugar spikes. When a mass amount of non-fiberous high glycemic fuel is consumed, such as when drinking soda, your body is no longer youthful enough to maintain a high enough metabolic rate to convert the fuel into energy. (onset of diabetes, insulin resistance, etc) The body then turns the excess sugar into fat if it cannot be burned fast enough. Cardio exercise will raise your basal metabolic rate and also burn the sugar out of your blood, which is very helpful.. But only as much as the effort you put in of course.

Fiber is in vegetables and fruits. Eat tons of both.. The fiber will regulate your hunger due to the bulk. Vegetables and fruits also contain the nutrients that your body is constantly craving to make you feel good.

In other words, you're dying.. Better get busy living!! Fight it!!

P.s. pizza has no fiber. Close to none


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## DiamondDays

TerminalDancer said:


> The most important factors in getting fit/ healthy are
> a. Getting 'deep sleep' stage 4. Magical things happen during deep sleep, including burning off extra fuel that you have eaten. Weed is e biggest offender of deep sleep, but caffeine has significant impeding effects as well. Actually all substances that people use for pleasure will significantly impede stage 4 sleep... Very important to know.
> Deep sleep will also fully repair the body and mind to take on more exercise, not to mention everything else.
> 
> b. making sure damn near everything you eat is a good source of fiber, both soluble and insoluble. Fiber allows for a smooth metabolism, rather than blood sugar spikes. When a mass amount of non-fiberous high glycemic fuel is consumed, such as when drinking soda, your body is no longer youthful enough to maintain a high enough metabolic rate to convert the fuel into energy. (onset of diabetes, insulin resistance, etc) The body then turns the excess sugar into fat if it cannot be burned fast enough. Cardio exercise will raise your basal metabolic rate and also burn the sugar out of your blood, which is very helpful.. But only as much as the effort you put in of course.
> 
> Fiber is in vegetables and fruits. Eat tons of both.. The fiber will regulate your hunger due to the bulk. Vegetables and fruits also contain the nutrients that your body is constantly craving to make you feel good.
> 
> In other words, you're dying.. Better get busy living!! Fight it!!
> 
> P.s. pizza has no fiber. Close to none


This is bs. Complete utter bs.

Rest is important, but you can get fit sleeping only 5 hours a night. Food is important, but you can eat crap food and get fit as long as the calories are right.

TerminalDancer has no clue what he is talking about. Cardio does not raise your basal metabolic rate considerably. It does burn a lot of calories, so it is recommended if you want to loose fat, but it is important to keep your facts straight. Cardio does not raise BMR. More muscle does, but cardio does not lead to more muscle. Rather the opposite actually. 

Fibers are good for you, yes. Especially if you have certain kinds of digestive tract troubles. But there is such a thing as too much fiber too. What TD seems to be driving at is that you should try to get low glycemic index foods, and that is of course correct. However low glycemic index foods do not necessarily contain a lot of fibers and just because the food contains a lot of fibers does not mean it is healthy. Fibrous foods often are, but far from all are. The effect of fibers on keeping your blood sugar levels, and consequently your insulin levels, level are negligible. 

The right amount of food and the right exercise. That is all. The rest is just bonus.


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## sly

DiamondDays said:


> This is bs. Complete utter bs.
> 
> Rest is important, but you can get fit sleeping only 5 hours a night. Food is important, but you can eat crap food and get fit as long as the calories are right.
> 
> TerminalDancer has no clue what he is talking about. Cardio does not raise your basal metabolic rate considerably. It does burn a lot of calories, so it is recommended if you want to loose fat, but it is important to keep your facts straight. Cardio does not raise BMR. More muscle does, but cardio does not lead to more muscle. Rather the opposite actually.
> 
> Fibers are good for you, yes. Especially if you have certain kinds of digestive tract troubles. But there is such a thing as too much fiber too. What TD seems to be driving at is that you should try to get low glycemic index foods, and that is of course correct. However low glycemic index foods do not necessarily contain a lot of fibers and just because the food contains a lot of fibers does not mean it is healthy. Fibrous foods often are, but far from all are. The effect of fibers on keeping your blood sugar levels, and consequently your insulin levels, level are negligible.
> 
> The right amount of food and the right exercise. That is all. The rest is just bonus.


Okay, so if I put it all together:

Sleep(5u minimum, I'm on 12u sleep a day currently)
Fibers, which are apparently good for me. Fibers can be found in fruits and vegatbles

What else am I missing here? Vitamins? that powder like substance sold in jars in sport stores? 

Getting fit can be seperated in two fields: Resistance and cardio.
The basic rule is that your ouput has to be higher than your input in order to burn fat. Reistance is to build muscle while cardio is to burn fat.


Oh and by the way, you are suggesting to start stronglifting which is building resistance. Shouldn't I burn fat first before I should start build muscle? 


Are there any exercises I can do without going to a gym(alternatives for stronglifts)? Too many mirrors, people looking at each other, I just feel awkward in there considering the state I am in now.


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## DiamondDays

sly said:


> Okay, so if I put it all together:
> 
> Sleep(5u minimum, I'm on 12u sleep a day currently)
> Fibers, which are apparently good for me. Fibers can be found in fruits and vegatbles
> 
> What else am I missing here? Vitamins? that powder like substance sold in jars in sport stores?
> 
> Getting fit can be seperated in two fields: Resistance and cardio.
> The basic rule is that your ouput has to be higher than your input in order to burn fat. Reistance is to build muscle while cardio is to burn fat.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, you are suggesting to start stronglifting which is building resistance. Shouldn't I burn fat first before I should start build muscle?
> 
> 
> Are there any exercises I can do without going to a gym(alternatives for stronglifts)? Too many mirrors, people looking at each other, I just feel awkward in there considering the state I am in now.


You probably should think about cutting down on sleep. Are you by any chance depressed? Tbh i think 12h sleep a day can explain your weight gain.

And no, cardio is not for fat loss, it is for endurance. It just happens to burn calories too, which in conjuction with diet can lead to calorie deficit which leads to fat loss. 

You should do resistance training because it actually does raise your basic metabolic rate ( mainly by building muscle, which you will be doing even if you are on a moderate caloric deficit if you are a newbie at strength training ). Also it prevents you from losing a lot of muscle while on a caloric deficit, which you otherwise would. And no, 5 hours sleep is not a minimum of any kind. I was just saying that sleep is secondary to diet and exercise. 

Yes there are plenty of exercise you can do at home, squats, lunges, planks, pushups, situps, dips, chins, leg raises etc. etc. but if you are to shy to go to the gym i suggest you give up already, because obviously fitness is not important enough to you. Really, no one gives a shit how you look in there as long as your clothes are clean, you dont smell and you are not intentionally being ass. 

There is no such thing as "stronglifting". Stronglifts is just a program with set rules and such to help newbies get strong. When you go to a gym and lift weights it is called weight lifting, or maybe bodybuilding. 

Vitamins? Sure, go ahead. They will probably be good for you, but they wont make any difference to weightloss. Anybody who claims otherwise is either someone who sells supplements ( aka the Devil ) or someone who believes all the bullshit on the internet. Protein powder is awesome if you feel that you dont get enough protein from your diet otherwise, so yeah that is a good idea. 

And fibers, who fucking cares? Are you having troubles with your digestive tract?


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## bluekitdon

sly said:


> Okay, so if I put it all together:
> 
> Sleep(5u minimum, I'm on 12u sleep a day currently)
> Fibers, which are apparently good for me. Fibers can be found in fruits and vegatbles
> 
> What else am I missing here? Vitamins? that powder like substance sold in jars in sport stores?
> 
> Getting fit can be seperated in two fields: Resistance and cardio.
> The basic rule is that your ouput has to be higher than your input in order to burn fat. Reistance is to build muscle while cardio is to burn fat.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, you are suggesting to start stronglifting which is building resistance. Shouldn't I burn fat first before I should start build muscle?
> 
> 
> Are there any exercises I can do without going to a gym(alternatives for stronglifts)? Too many mirrors, people looking at each other, I just feel awkward in there considering the state I am in now.


-6-8 hrs of sleep
-Might do a multivitamin which is what I do, but unless you're into serious lifting/bodybuilding I wouldn't bother with the supplements.
-Usually best to combine resistance with cardio for best effects. I'd just alternate days - cardio one day, resistance the next.
-Food - I don't personally worry too much about what kind of food I eat, just the amounts (calories). Certain foods like potatoes (fries/chips) are loaded and I try to avoid those, some like green veggies & fruits don't have a ton of calories and fill you up so I try to replace the junk foods with those when I have an option.
-Exercising without a gym...could try something like P90X or Insanity DVD's, those are the two I use. Will need a pullup bar, weights, & pushup handles for P90X, don't really need any extra equipment for Insanity. It is usually better to exercise with others if you can though, gets some social time in at the same time.


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## Indiana Dan

@_DiamondDays_

You run this show eh? What gives you the right to treat me with such little respect? Fuck you man. There's nothing that I said that was not true or not valuable.

I didn't say 'sleep', I said 'deep sleep', as in REM. Consistent REM is only attainable through a clean lifestyle. Just because you close your eyes does not mean you go into this '4th Stage' of sleep. There's too much to explain here, it's just something very valuable for someone interested in health / wellbeing (and therefore weightloss & strength) should research.

You can not 'eat crap' and get fit. Not in any long-term scenario anyway. You are what you eat. Stick to the most natural foods, eat burgers/pizza in moderation. I would recommend never eating takeout chinese. Stay away from processed sugar.. try to get your sugar from fruits. If you drink soda as a habit, eliminating this item/ addiction from your lifestyle will provide the results you are looking for just in itself, but it won't be easy and you will be tempted to fill the void with other unhealthy things. Replacing with juice will not yield any fat loss.

Base Metabolic Rate (calories your body burns without doing anything): Although cardio DOES increase the calories burned for a period of time after stopping the exercise, I believe having bulk muscle mass will create the constant need for more calories to be burned, as long as the muscle is maintained of course. So yes, I give you credit on this.

There really is no such thing as too much fiber.. how is that possible? Fiber is just a component of natural, healthy foods. There are 2 types, soluble and insoluble. They each have a different function. Dietary Fiber: Insoluble and Soluble Fiber The effect of fiber on blood sugar is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED and it has a profound impact on health. Our systems should be processing food at a steady rate, not erratic like with liquid sugar and pizza and whatnot.

Exercise (both strength training and cardio) is necessary several days a week for optimal health, not arguing with this at all.

I am trying to give tips that others might not bring to the table. I do know what I'm talking about and I have verified the things I say with experience. It's a smart idea to start with your diet.. your results will be greater, you will feel & look better, and you will have more motivation to continue your workout routine as a long term strategy.


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## DiamondDays

TerminalDancer said:


> @_DiamondDays_
> 
> You run this show eh? What gives you the right to treat me with such little respect? Fuck you man. There's nothing that I said that was not true or not valuable.
> 
> I didn't say 'sleep', I said 'deep sleep', as in REM. Consistent REM is only attainable through a clean lifestyle. Just because you close your eyes does not mean you go into this '4th Stage' of sleep. There's too much to explain here, it's just something very valuable for someone interested in health / wellbeing (and therefore weightloss & strength) should research.
> 
> You can not 'eat crap' and get fit. Not in any long-term scenario anyway. You are what you eat. Stick to the most natural foods, eat burgers/pizza in moderation. I would recommend never eating takeout chinese. Stay away from processed sugar.. try to get your sugar from fruits. If you drink soda as a habit, eliminating this item/ addiction from your lifestyle will provide the results you are looking for just in itself, but it won't be easy and you will be tempted to fill the void with other unhealthy things. Replacing with juice will not yield any fat loss.
> 
> Base Metabolic Rate (calories your body burns without doing anything): Although cardio DOES increase the calories burned for a period of time after stopping the exercise, I believe having bulk muscle mass will create the constant need for more calories to be burned, as long as the muscle is maintained of course. So yes, I give you credit on this.
> 
> There really is no such thing as too much fiber.. how is that possible? Fiber is just a component of natural, healthy foods. There are 2 types, soluble and insoluble. They each have a different function. Dietary Fiber: Insoluble and Soluble Fiber The effect of fiber on blood sugar is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED and it has a profound impact on health. Our systems should be processing food at a steady rate, not erratic like with liquid sugar and pizza and whatnot.
> 
> Exercise (both strength training and cardio) is necessary several days a week for optimal health, not arguing with this at all.
> 
> I am trying to give tips that others might not bring to the table. I do know what I'm talking about and I have verified the things I say with experience. It's a smart idea to start with your diet.. your results will be greater, you will feel & look better, and you will have more motivation to continue your workout routine as a long term strategy.


Fuck me? Well fuck you too! 

What i reacted to was the fact that you claimed that your two point were the most important parts of fitness. THEY MOST PATENTLY ARE NOT. If you read my reply you read that i agreed that rest is important and fibers are healthy. They are and i never argued against that. What i argued was that they are not "the most important factors in getting fit/healthy"

If you had actually read my post before flying off the handle you would have seen that. 

If you can tell people that rest and fibers are the MOST IMPORTANT parts of fitness then i can tell people that you are full of shit, that is only fair.


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## sly

DiamondDays said:


> You probably should think about cutting down on sleep. Are you by any chance depressed? Tbh i think 12h sleep a day can explain your weight gain.


Nah I'm not depressed, I just somehow end up sleeping till my head hurts. Guess I'm at a disadvantage here with my sleeping habits.


> And no, cardio is not for fat loss, it is for endurance. It just happens to burn calories too, which in conjuction with diet can lead to calorie deficit which leads to fat loss.


Point noted.


> You should do resistance training because it actually does raise your basic metabolic rate ( mainly by building muscle, which you will be doing even if you are on a moderate caloric deficit if you are a newbie at strength training ). Also it prevents you from losing a lot of muscle while on a caloric deficit, which you otherwise would. And no, 5 hours sleep is not a minimum of any kind. I was just saying that sleep is secondary to diet and exercise.


You haven't told me yet what this metabolic rate is. So if I train muscle, I will prevent losing muscle even if im on a caloric deficit. 


> Yes there are plenty of exercise you can do at home, squats, lunges, planks, pushups, situps, dips, chins, leg raises etc. etc. but if you are to shy to go to the gym i suggest you give up already, because obviously fitness is not important enough to you. Really, no one gives a shit how you look in there as long as your clothes are clean, you dont smell and you are not intentionally being ass.


No, im not going to give up.
I subscribed to my local gym, went there and ended up being overwhelmed by my social anxiety due to some very ignorant actions(mental facepalming still). Therefore I want to atleast have some information and some sort of plan before I go back there to have some confidence. 



> There is no such thing as "stronglifting". Stronglifts is just a program with set rules and such to help newbies get strong. When you go to a gym and lift weights it is called weight lifting, or maybe bodybuilding.


Oh i see, I will look into this program then. Interested 



> Vitamins? Sure, go ahead. They will probably be good for you, but they wont make any difference to weightloss. Anybody who claims otherwise is either someone who sells supplements ( aka the Devil ) or someone who believes all the bullshit on the internet. Protein powder is awesome if you feel that you dont get enough protein from your diet otherwise, so yeah that is a good idea.
> 
> And fibers, who fucking cares? Are you having troubles with your digestive tract?


Sorry, I just don't have that complete picture yet of what I should pay attention to or need in order to succeed. I would think that what you eat is kind of important. Like protein, what the hell is that? Where should I look for some diets that I can easily adhere to. For now, I feel like im eating waaay to much.


Could you also comment on insanity DVDs and how it differs from the stronglift program? Should I follow @_bluekitdon_ 's advice and not worry too much about what I eat but only how much I eat for the time being?

Edit:
Oh shit I feel a storm brewing in this thread...


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## DiamondDays

My computer crashed when i was writing my response and i had spent a buttload of time on it so this is the condensed version.



sly said:


> Nah I'm not depressed, I just somehow end up sleeping till my head hurts. Guess I'm at a disadvantage here with my sleeping habits.


Well, when you sleep your body uses less energy to keep going. 12h is not very healthy, actually it is as bad as sleeping too little



> Point noted.
> You haven't told me yet what this metabolic rate is. So if I train muscle, I will prevent losing muscle even if im on a caloric deficit.


Metabolic rate is the amount of energy the body uses just to keep going. More muscle = higher metabolic rate. Not by huge amounts, but by noticeable amounts.



> No, im not going to give up.
> I subscribed to my local gym, went there and ended up being overwhelmed by my social anxiety due to some very ignorant actions(mental facepalming still). Therefore I want to atleast have some information and some sort of plan before I go back there to have some confidence.


That is a great attitude! Do not be afraid to ask people for help either. Everyone's been a newb at one point.



> Oh i see, I will look into this program then. Interested


It worked very well for me at least. If you decide to go for it you will almost guaranteed be one of the stronger guys in your gym in a matter of months.



> Sorry, I just don't have that complete picture yet of what I should pay attention to or need in order to succeed. I would think that what you eat is kind of important. Like protein, what the hell is that? Where should I look for some diets that I can easily adhere to. For now, I feel like im eating waaay to much.


Ohh lawd! You really don't know what proteins are? Well, see, they are one of three main things that the body derive sustance from. The other two are carbohydrates and fats. Carbohydrates are starches and sugar ( and fibers, but fibers can't be digested due to the molecular size or something ), fats are... fats. Proteins are important because they are what the body uses to build and maintain muscle, and they are used for a lot of other bodily functions too. Fats are important too, and together with proteins they are the two nutrients you absolutely can not do without. Carbs you can cut out completely and survive just fine, as the atkins people do, but i don't recommend it... Anyways, yeah, those three are the main sources of sustance for the body and when you are building muscle or losing fat you need proteins a lot so that your muscles grow optimally/don't shrink so much.

Proteins are found in thing like meat, dairy, eggs and legumes. 

If you want to really take control of your diet you need a tape measure, a scale, a food scale and a pair of eyes.
First you go to The WeighTrainer - Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Weightlifting, Strength Training, Nutrition and figure out your body fat percentage with the calculator there. Then you figure out your energy need with the different calculators. With those numbers in mind you start reading the back of all the food you buy for nutrional info, or you for thing like meat and grains you weigh them and look it up online. Then you just add up everything you eat in a day and ta-daa! you have just counted your calories for a day. You want to aim at at least a 500 calorie deficit a day, which would translate to around a pound fat loss a week. However it is important that you do some kind of resistance training or up to 50% of your weightloss might be muscle and you do not want that.

If you don't want to do that just stop eating crap, start eating only home cooked food and eat 3-4 times a day. Eat lots of protein, eat only whole grains, fill up on veggies.



> Could you also comment on insanity DVDs and how it differs from the stronglift program? Should I follow @_bluekitdon_ 's advice and not worry too much about what I eat but only how much I eat for the time being?


Well, it is not the same thing at all really. Things like insanity and P90X will have you burning insane amounts of calories, thus they are good for weight loss. However they are not really focused on improving strength, which is what i have been advising thus far. If you choose to go down the endurance fitness path, i think they will do fine if you just ease into it. But as far as i have read into them they will get a newb overtrained fast if you just jump right in.

Also yes i think you shouldn't worry a whole lot about but rather how much. However protein is very important!!



> Edit:
> Oh shit I feel a storm brewing in this thread...


Lol yeah i noticed haha


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## Swede

If I may... (She said without actually reading through the other posts... I apologize in advance if this has already been covered)

The best way that I lost weight fast & in a healthy manner was through Weight Watchers. Yeah, I'm aware that it sounds pathetic and as a fat old women's club, but it's not exactly true. I joined when I couldn't get the last 10 lbs off and it was really, really easy. I used to spend 6 days a week at the gym, actively working out about 1.5 hrs a time, high intensity cardio & lifting, plus I ate & drank very healthy so it wasn't like I was out of shape or anything.

WW is not free, but what you learn is something that you can use the rest of your life + you get books and stuff that you can pull back out as needed. You can go to live meetings or do everything online. The WW approach takes everything into account, IMO. Basically is uses calories, grams of fat & grams of fiber in the food that you eat to calculate points. Depending on your weight (and gender, I believe) you are allowed a certain amount of points a day. You can essentially eat & drink anything, as long as you stick within your allowed points span. You can increase your allowed points by adding exercising.

The good thing, at least for women ( @DiamondDays and the rest of you guys posting on this thread, can you comment if this is true for men to, please?), is that you also make sure not to do the big mistake of under-eating. A lot of people do dieting in a way that actually shuts down the metabolism; the body goes into starvation mode and starts to survive on a very small amount of calories. Once the person goes back to eating a normal amount of calories, the body weight increases. This creates an effect & behavior that is often referred to as yo-yo dieting.


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## DiamondDays

Swede said:


> The good thing, at least for women (@DiamondDays and the rest of you guys posting on this thread, can you comment if this is true for men to, please?), is that you also make sure not to do the big mistake of under-eating. A lot of people do dieting in a way that actually shuts down the metabolism; the body goes into starvation mode and starts to survive on a very small amount of calories. Once the person goes back to eating a normal amount of calories, the body weight increases. This creates an effect & behavior that is often referred to as yo-yo dieting.


This is very true for guys too, altho your bmr actually doesn't get downregulated by more than around 20% or so at the most during starvation. The really really big culprit with yo-yo dieting tends to be muscle loss, and the decrease in metabolism is due to just having lost a lot of muscle, replacing it with fat.


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## sly

@DiamondDays

You have been very helpful so far. I'm starting to understand things. This all reminds me of mmorpgs somehow, which path shall I choose? hmm..

I guess I'll be combining insanity and stronglift to a)burn calories like a korean prostitute on Speed and b) prevent losing muscle when burning calories by doing resistance training 3 days a week(unless otherwise advice by stronglift program). The other 2 days I'll be doing endurance, I guess I could just pick my bike and do 10km(I would do more but my thigs are scrubbed raw already by the unnatural high humidty in this area).

My diet will consist of meat drenched in oil(that is like fat right?) and eggs. That should be a good beginning I reckon?


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## DiamondDays

sly said:


> @_DiamondDays_
> 
> You have been very helpful so far. I'm starting to understand things. This all reminds me of mmorpgs somehow, which path shall I choose? hmm..
> 
> I guess I'll be combining insanity and stronglift to a)burn calories like a korean prostitute on Speed and b) prevent losing muscle when burning calories by doing resistance training 3 days a week(unless otherwise advice by stronglift program). The other 2 days I'll be doing endurance, I guess I could just pick my bike and do 10km(I would do more but my thigs are scrubbed raw already by the unnatural high humidty in this area).
> 
> My diet will consist of meat drenched in oil(that is like fat right?) and eggs. That should be a good beginning I reckon?


I admire your resolve but really you should choose either or. If you go the stronglifts road all you really need is to take a really long walk or go biking 3-4 times a week in addition to the regime. If you do both insanity and stronglifts you will become overtrained fast. And yes stronglifts is 3 days a week.

MEAT DRENCHED IN OIL EGGS! XD XD XD!!! YES! DO THAT!

Seriously, it will work. It can't not work!


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## Impavida

Okay, a couple new responses came in while I was typing, so some of this is going to be a repeat.


There's a lot of information out there when it comes to health and fitness. Sometimes it's hard to filter through the noise to get to the facts.

*Basal Metabolic Rate* (BMR) - the rate at which your body burns calories when you're at rest.
*Calorie* - unit used to measure the energy in food.

A person's BMR is not constant. It changes depending on factors like age, diet and overall fitness. Muscle burns more calories than fat. If you increase your muscle mass, you will increase your BMR. A higher BMR means that you will burn more calories with less effort.

There are two components to becoming fit: diet and exercise. It is possible to gain muscle and lose weight even while eating crap foods. It's just harder and it takes longer. 
@_DiamondDays_ gave you a basic overview of exercise - cardio and resistance.

The key components of a nutritious diet:

*Protein* - this is mainly meat, eggs and some dairy products. You can also get protein from nuts, seeds and legumes. You want lean meats like chicken or turkey. Fish is good too.

*Fruit/Vegetables* - these need to be a part of balanced diet. Don't go overboard on the fruit though, there's a lot of sugar in it.

*Carbohydrates* - a fancy word for sugar. This comes from breads, fruits, starchy foods like corn and potatoes. The Glycemic Index is a quick reference for how much sugar is in food. High GI = High sugar. You want to have low GI foods - you feel fuller longer and don't get massive sugar spikes in your blood.

*Fat* - there is fat in most types of foods. You want to avoid saturated and trans fat. In processed foods you'll find trans fat in anything with hydrogenated oil. Good fats are monounsaturated and polyunsaturated.

There are thousands of different diets out there. Some are high protein, some are low fat, some are no carbs...You'll need to research and experiment to find out what will work best for your body.

I think for someone completely new to this @_bluekitdon_'s advice is probably a good place to start. It will take some time for you to learn about proper nutrition. That shouldn't stop you from starting an exercise routine while you're learning though. Simple rule - processed food is bad, fresh food is good. Processed is pretty much any food that has chemicals you can't pronounce in it! 

Insanity and P90X are both great programs, but neither are easy. You don't need to buy any extra equipment for Insanity. 

You don't need to use a program or DVD though. There's nothing wrong with just doing your own thing. Start doing push-ups and sit-ups. Go for a run a couple of times a week. Bike ride. Go swimming. Just get active.


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## Zombie Devil Duckie

lol, I keep wanting to comment but @_diamonddays_ posts sum it all up pretty well. I use myfitnesspal.com to track my daily calories and it works. 

Since I'm a little older now I don't go for the high impact stuff any more. Biking, walking and general house stuff are my exercise routines 



-ZDD


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## bluekitdon

I agree with @DiamondDays on the over training issue. Don't try to do everything at once. Your body needs time to recover between workouts, you can actually slow progress by over training, especially if you get hurt. P90x has a great combo of strength and cardio but is a huge time hog. Insanity will get you drenched in sweat every day and burn tons of calories. Can't comment on the stronglift program as I've never tried that.


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## Adrift

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is very difficult to lose weight through exercise and maintain that weight loss. You need to control weight mostly through diet. To burn 55 calories (One Oreo cookie), you need to walk slightly over half a mile. Also, we get fatter naturally as we age. "Per decade, it worked out to a gain of about 3.3 pounds and an increase of about 3/4 of an inch around the waist." From Timothy Caulfield's "The Cure for Everything.

I'd start by eliminating snacks, sodas, chips, and french fries from your diet. You may want to keep track of what you do eat so you get an idea of how many calories you are consuming. Also, people who exercise often don't lose weight because they mistakenly assume that they're able to eat more stuff afterwards.


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## dalex

@DiamondDays


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## DiamondDays

dalex said:


> @_DiamondDays_


Haha scooby is a legend and he's right. Don't really like his fitnes philosophy tho. Me i'm more of Eliott Hulse kinda guy...


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## DiamondDays

dalex said:


> _txt_







Now this is just huuuuugely off topic, but this is why Elliott Hulse owns Scoobs every day. I mean obviously Scoobs is awesome, but Elliott is a bit more awesome.


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## dalex

I've heard of Elliot Hulse, and I've find his work to be very influential on me, even though he comes across as a bit of a dick sometimes, but hey I can be quite of a dick too.

This is an insightful review of youtube channels:


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## birdsintrees

Well since most has already been said in terms of how and what: thumbs up for taking action and enjoy the process. It's an awesome thing to gain control and improve your health.


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## Diogenes

sly said:


> My diet will consist of meat drenched in oil(that is like fat right?) and eggs. That should be a good beginning I reckon?


Unless you want to gain an intimate knowledge of this object you might want to eat something which has fibers in it, you know that green stuff?
Also, as other have already told you, you don't need to overdo this: you gained 8 kg which is not that much weight and if you eat a little more reasonably (like stop drinking sugary beverages and eating salty food), do some cardio and some weightlifting, you're going to achieve your goal just fine. Overdoing it is bad both for your body and your resolve.

@_Adrift_

Most of the calories lost by doing cardio are lost due to the afterburner effect, although I agree with you that maintaining your ideal weight is more about dieting than anything else.


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## sly

Thank you all guys, I guess this is not so rocket science-ish as I initially anticipated. I will be on my way to the grocery to get some green stuff.


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## Swede

Oh, one more thing - patience! What you do today will show up in about 2 weeks. Stick to your changes and don't get disappointed if you don't see any immediate results.


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## Snow

sly said:


> At first I liked it, playing beats on my naked belly...


Best quote on PerC.

Good luck in staying fit, it's been a constant struggle in my own life; stay fit or stay lazy? I find staying fit (or at least _active_) actually makes me feel much better in the long run, so I force myself to exercise.


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## bluekitdon

@sly the most important thing is to just do something different if you're not getting the results you expect. It is easy to get confused with all the options, strategies, etc. Ultimately it boils down to the fact that you just need to make some changes in your diet & do some exercise. 

Also as @Swede mentioned - don't give up because you do something for a few weeks and don't see any change. You probably didn't really notice from week to week as you got bigger, it's the same thing with going the other way. I think the media has flooded us with images of transforming in 30 days or whatever, the reality is that it usually takes a long time to get fat, and a long time to get fit. It's a lifestyle change, not a quick fix. Don't compare yourself to Hollywood, those guys get paid to look good and are often Photoshopped. Just compare yourself to how you were six months ago, if you are headed in the right direction keep going in that direction. 

Four years ago I was 25lbs heavier than I am today and it was work for me to walk a few miles and I could maybe run a quarter mile. Next month I'll be running another 11 mile Tough Mudder for charity through mud, hills, & water with about 30 military style obstacles, and unless I get injured I should be able to complete it without much difficulty. The vast majority of that just came from me making the decision that I wasn't happy with my life, deciding I needed to do something about it, doing a little research, and then doing it.


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## Falling Leaves

I have a personal rule: If I can no longer easily feel my hipbones, I'm getting fat.

What you need to do is keep track of how much you eat/exercise. Start a food diary - it can be very easy to miss things when calculating calorie intake. From there, you can see what you need to cut out to start loosing (sometimes it's simple, like the biscuits you eat at work). 

Also, the kind of food you eat plays a role in weight. I'm kind of finicky about most foods, so I eat a diet of fat-laden processed shit. I don't get podgy because I only consume around 1000 calories a day. If I swapped to low fat foods (soups, baked potato, homemade meals, etc), I could probably eat more, but alas, my tastebuds are a fickle bitch.


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## etranger

"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

Increasing your fiber intake is going to help a lot--whole grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes. And all these things have a lot of nutrients, so you'll feel full more quickly. Just switching to whole grain bread, brown rice, and whole wheat pasta is a good start. Figuring out how to make vegetables tasty is another good one. Cooking at home, if viable, is good. Getting more healthy fats: nuts, olive oil, avocado, fish like salmon, and etc., while also be helpful. Every meal should definitely have at least one serving, if not two, of vegetables and fruits (a single tomato slice is not a serving, and etc.). Also, a good multi-vitamin will help. The great thing about eating more healthy foods is that you don't have to be anal about portion control. Depending on how you shop, too, it doesn't need to be exorbitantly expensive. I can do a meal with whole grains, decent protein, and at least two servings of fruits or veggies for <$3.

I use this site, when I need the nutritional break-down on something (whole foods, not junk, etc.), or I'm afraid I'm not getting enough. 

The World's Healthiest Foods

Obviously, if you drink a lot of alcohol, cut down on that--or choose lower calories options. Or both. 

As far as exercise goes--I find its best if it's something you enjoy and kind of weave into your schedule. I bike to campus everyday, and then walk to the coffee-shop near my apartment once or twice a day. Which is sort of my weight-training, because I carry a lot of shit in my backpack. And that keeps me in pretty good shape (not ultra-marathoner shape, like I was in before, but enough to maintain muscle and not gain weight). For me, also, it's good if I do the exercise every day, because then I don't have to think about it, and it makes me feel good. Even during finals, when I'm studying 12 hours a day, or what have you. With the biking--are there places you drive to that are within biking distance? That's a good way to multi-task and make "room" for the exercise if you're busy.


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## Purrfessor

I didn't read the responses but you should avoid sugar. Sugar gets you addicted to it and makes you fat. Natural sugar in fruit isn't really that bad though. Also eat whole foods without processing. Organic is best. It's more expensive but worth it.


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## sly

Guys guys, one quick question while im busy doing the statistics and preparations here.

What should I eat @ breakfast? I just had a personal victory in which I decided to opt out for reheated fried chicken and the usual new york cheese cake from starbucks in my morning ritual. I tell you, the temptation was there but then I was like ''nah, ill have those crunchy ass crackers instead''.

The crackers were horrible, was eating them like a robot, but you do feel a satisfied stomach once you hit the road. But back to the question, can I throw some fruits into the mixer and have that as breakfast? I like banana's and the orange things that are associated with vitamin C(forgot name atm).


Also, a previous user suggested that 10km cycling is not enough. How about 2x 10km a day, would that have some impact? I would like to combine this with insanity to do some cardiovascular training(did I spell that word right? :tongue before doing strength training. Reason for this is because I need equipment for stronglifts which I haven't properly figured out yet.


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## bluekitdon

sly said:


> Guys guys, one quick question while im busy doing the statistics and preparations here.
> 
> What should I eat @ breakfast? I just had a personal victory in which I decided to opt out for reheated fried chicken and the usual new york cheese cake from starbucks in my morning ritual. I tell you, the temptation was there but then I was like ''nah, ill have those crunchy ass crackers instead''.
> 
> The crackers were horrible, was eating them like a robot, but you do feel a satisfied stomach once you hit the road. But back to the question, can I throw some fruits into the mixer and have that as breakfast? I like banana's and the orange things that are associated with vitamin C(forgot name atm).
> 
> 
> Also, a previous user suggested that 10km cycling is not enough. How about 2x 10km a day, would that have some impact? I would like to combine this with insanity to do some cardiovascular training(did I spell that word right? :tongue before doing strength training. Reason for this is because I need equipment for stronglifts which I haven't properly figured out yet.


If you're going to use Insanity, you really don't need to do anything else to get started, it is tough enough on its own. You will gain plenty of strength and flexibility with it as well, just won't get huge.

For food, a fruit mix would be good for breakfast if you like that, certainly better than the cheese cake in any case. Also forgot to mention - don't skip meals, especially breakfast. 4-5 small meals a day is ideal, it'll keep your metabolism going throughout the day & you shouldn't ever get very hungry because that's when you eat way too much.


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## Zombie Devil Duckie

> What should I eat @ breakfast?


Get a good juicer and have a big glass of juice 1st thing in the AM. You'll get fiber and easily digestible sugars. Follow it up with some whole grain toast or oatmeal and you'll be plenty full until lunch time. 

Although I must admit... cold fried chicken and cheesecake sure is tempting.

:tongue:

For juice, I drink this every morning: 3 carrots, 1 orange, 1 apple, handful of Kale leaves and 1/2" of Ginger root. I use other fruits when they are in season. Makes 2 cups, 220 calories total, 54 carbs, 2g protein. Fiber depends on your juicer's extraction method, but it's usually a decent amount. 

If you want a snack inbetween meals, cut boneless, skinless chicken breasts into 1" strips and bake them with your favorite seasonings in the oven at 325F for 35 to 40 minutes, or pan fry with a little olive oil. You want to cook the chicken until it's _slightly_ chewy so you have something to gnaw on. The protein will make you feel full and help you meet your daily macros.


-ZDD


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## sly

Oh shit, I lost some serious weight just by changing a few habits in a matter of days.

73.3kg -----> 72.6kg (after rehydration)

I made some mistakes such as eating croissants(i thought it was just normal bread?) and everytime I finish a meal I start feeling guilty and hop on my bike to do some riding. I took a day off because my legs can barely carry me up the stairs anymore, the weird thing is that they don't hurt like I would expect them to, they only feel like when you do one set to much of abs-training, a burning sensation that requires you to cancel exercise immediately and take some rest.


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## bluekitdon

Good to hear. You will probably get some quick weight off in the first week or two, then it will go slower. At some point you'll level out and it'll come off very slowly or may even gain a bit temporarily. Just think of it as a lifestyle change and you should be able to keep it off.

Some muscle fatigue is good. Actual pain is bad, if you start getting pain it is time to adjust down your workout a bit and also give it time to heal.


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## Arbite

bluekitdon said:


> I agree with @DiamondDays on the over training issue. Don't try to do everything at once. Your body needs time to recover between workouts, you can actually slow progress by over training, especially if you get hurt. P90x has a great combo of strength and cardio but is a huge time hog. Insanity will get you drenched in sweat every day and burn tons of calories. Can't comment on the stronglift program as I've never tried that.


It's is really difficult to overtrain. In fact, overtraining is kind of bullshit. As someone who has been 'overtrained' on several occasions, it really should be called under recovery. It occurs not so much when you train lots (I train 40+ hours a week without issues) it happens when you don't eat enough/get enough sleep.


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## bluekitdon

Arbite said:


> It's is really difficult to overtrain. In fact, overtraining is kind of bullshit. As someone who has been 'overtrained' on several occasions, it really should be called under recovery. It occurs not so much when you train lots (I train 40+ hours a week without issues) it happens when you don't eat enough/get enough sleep.


When I first started out I went too hard and kept getting hurt which would push me into needing a week or more recovery. Yes you can work up to insane numbers of hours in the gym, one of my daughters spends about 4 hours a day doing gymnastics and cheer, but that build up time needs to be taken gradually as I found.


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## Arbite

bluekitdon said:


> When I first started out I went too hard and kept getting hurt which would push me into needing a week or more recovery. Yes you can work up to insane numbers of hours in the gym, one of my daughters spends about 4 hours a day doing gymnastics and cheer, but that build up time needs to be taken gradually as I found.


Injury =/= overtraining. But provided you program smart, you can do pretty much anything.


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## FakeLefty

One thing you can do is to play tennis. It's a pretty active sport with plenty of running and it's much less monotonous than going to the gym. Also, if you can't find a friend to play with, then you can just hit the ball against the wall and the angle of your shot will get you to run anyway.


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## sly

Okay guys, a new issue emerges.

There are liquid breakfasts and ''diet'' products for sale that have a staggering amount of calories. How is a meal replacer supposed to be good for you when it has that many calories in it?


Also, I'm currently living on baby carrots, fish, crackers, soy milk, banana's and canned corn and tuna.

My belly is starting to get shape, I can see a little bit of my abs again but its not good enough, I have to do more. However, I'm feeling sick because of the food i'm eating and my head is hurting(is this normal?). I also developed a habit of checking everything for the amount of calories in it. 


Questiontime:
>Can I eat coalfish every day? It's cheap and it doesn't upset my stomach. 
>Grilled meat, how often?
>Can I drink aquirius?
>Soy milk, is it healthier than normal milk? I fucking love soy milk

P.S = lost 200 gram today, what exactly am I losing?!


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## Diogenes

@_sly_

I'll try to keep this the more diet neutral possible because I don't want dietary chauvinists shouting at me.
In no particular order:

If you stopped drinking soda and eating chips or stuff like that, you're probably losing water.
You don't have to focus so much on your calories: without getting in the calories in calories out debate, you have no reason to count your calories obsessively if you're not doing competitive bodybuilding. Rather, get the habit of reading what the food is made of and avoid sugar when possible.
Soy milk has very little calcium in it so if you're not eating a lot of calcium switch to cow's milk.
Eat more meat, preferably white meat because a) it's usually cheaper b) it's usually easier to find better quality.
Don't eat too much tuna (more than one can per day) unless you want to become like Minamata's cats.
If you want to eat something with wheat in it, eat pasta rather than crackers.
Eat more vegetables, something green like broccoli and lettuce.


P.S. What's Aquirius?


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## sly

Diogenes said:


> @_sly_
> 
> I'll try to keep this the more diet neutral possible because I don't want dietary chauvinists shouting at me.
> In no particular order:
> 
> If you stopped drinking soda and eating chips or stuff like that, you're probably losing water.
> You don't have to focus so much on your calories: without getting in the calories in calories out debate, you have no reason to count your calories obsessively if you're not doing competitive bodybuilding. Rather, get the habit of reading what the food is made of and avoid sugar when possible.
> Soy milk has very little calcium in it so if you're not eating a lot of calcium switch to cow's milk.
> Eat more meat, preferably white meat because a) it's usually cheaper b) it's usually easier to find better quality.
> Don't eat too much tuna (more than one can per day) unless you want to become like Minamata's cats.
> If you want to eat something with wheat in it, eat pasta rather than crackers.
> Eat more vegetables, something green like broccoli and lettuce.
> 
> 
> P.S. What's Aquirius?


White meat? what the hell is that? meat=meat?

Aquirius=aquarius (derp..) that sports drink, can i switch to those instead of water?


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## Diogenes

sly said:


> White meat? what the hell is that? meat=meat?


White meat as opposed to red meat. Basically, poultry.



> Aquirius=aquarius (derp..) that sports drink, can i switch to those instead of water?


It's pretty much water with sugar and sodium. So it's better to avoid it given that it doesn't serve any nutritional purpose whatsoever.


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## Lilsnowy

sly said:


> Okay, so if I put it all together:
> 
> Sleep(5u minimum, I'm on 12u sleep a day currently)
> Fibers, which are apparently good for me. Fibers can be found in fruits and vegatbles
> 
> What else am I missing here? Vitamins? that powder like substance sold in jars in sport stores?
> 
> Getting fit can be seperated in two fields: Resistance and cardio.
> The basic rule is that your ouput has to be higher than your input in order to burn fat. Reistance is to build muscle while cardio is to burn fat.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way, you are suggesting to start stronglifting which is building resistance. Shouldn't I burn fat first before I should start build muscle?
> 
> 
> Are there any exercises I can do without going to a gym(alternatives for stronglifts)? Too many mirrors, people looking at each other, I just feel awkward in there considering the state I am in now.


How much sleep is 12u?


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## sly

Lilsnowy said:


> How much sleep is 12u?


Oh sorry, in Dutch it is 12 uur which makes it 12u intead of 12h. Little language slip, my bad!


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## Swede

White meat & red meat


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## sly

@Diogenes

We have some pretty strict laws here in holland regarding red meat(no added substances, not genetically engineered or modified).

If I had a deep purse and did not have to fear the quality of the meat, could I just continue eating red meat? I don't like chicken or poultry, I butcher my own meat and am very selective about what I pick, I almost always barbeque it or smoke the meat.


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## Diogenes

sly said:


> @_Diogenes_
> 
> We have some pretty strict laws here in holland regarding red meat(no added substances, not genetically engineered or modified).
> 
> If I had a deep purse and did not have to fear the quality of the meat, could I just continue eating red meat? I don't like chicken or poultry, I butcher my own meat and am very selective about what I pick, I almost always barbeque it or smoke the meat.


If the meat is grass-fed, go ahead, otherwise eat more fish than meat. Corn fed red meat isn't the best thing on the long run.
What about rabbit? It tastes similar to but not exactly like chicken.
Also you've got to keep in mind that if you go from a diet composed primarily of highly processed foods to "simpler" foods it's quite common to find everything less tasty for a certain amount of time.


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## sly

Diogenes said:


> If the meat is grass-fed, go ahead, otherwise eat more fish than meat. Corn fed red meat isn't the best thing on the long run.


Alright, alright. What is your standing on canned corn? Yes or no?
The soy milk issue...is calcium important?


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## Purrfessor

sly said:


> Alright, alright. What is your standing on canned corn? Yes or no?
> The soy milk issue...is calcium important?


Corn is just extra carbs. It's not really nutritious either. Also I read too much soy will raise your estrogen levels so careful if you want to avoid man boobs.


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## Swede

I have heard that you should avoid wild caught fish due to higher levels of heavy metals. Farm grown fish is bett if you eat a lot of fish ( several times a week).


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## Diogenes

sly said:


> Alright, alright. What is your standing on canned corn? Yes or no?
> The soy milk issue...is calcium important?


Not a fan of canned anything but corn isn't too bad a cereal (paleo fans don't kill me please) provided you're not eating too much carbs.

You definitely need calcium but you shouldn't have trouble finding soy milk with added calcium, maybe you're already drinking it. If you aren't and it doesn't taste good, eat more dairy products. If you're not a fan of dairy in general, eat broccoli, almonds, sardines, herrings or google high calcium food and see what you like.


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