# The Pain of Being Contra Flow



## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Entropic said:


> I don't see much validity to the syn vs contraflow and I don't relate to that description of sx/so despite being very sure of being sx/so. I also don't think it really captures the nature of how sx/so works. In many ways I think sx/so sounds way more the way I think sp/sx works and this is the issue with most enneagram and typology literature in general; it tends to use a lot of big words but without context, these words become absolutely meaningless and end up saying very little about the phenomenon it's trying to describe/explain.


ironically this post alone is exhibiting contra-flow behavior. sx/so is "dividing and rupturing". i really do see it. the direct opposite of so/sx.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

if i were to explain each stacking using the metaphor of walking a dog (in terms of connecting with others):

syn-flow
so/sx: both they and their dog run alongside each other, planted on their face is a huge smile 
sx/sp: they walk with their dog gently, focusing entirely on the path they are on
sp/so: they walk with their dog gently, cooperating with the needs of their dog (pausing, pooping, eating, etc)


contra-flow
so/sp: their dog is running, and they're struggling to keep up, looking overwhelmed as the leech gets harder to hold onto 
sp/sx: walks with their dog, but is pulling on the leech instead of pausing like their dog wants 
sx/so: walking alongside their big scary dog without a leech


important how the contra-flow are defined by the leech. kind of shows you how the energy is opposite


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> ironically this post alone is exhibiting contra-flow behavior. sx/so is "dividing and rupturing". i really do see it. the direct opposite of so/sx.


Being contrarian or expressing contrarian views=! contraflow.


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

It isn't "painful" in any way. But from Trump to Genghis Khan to the Unabomber, or Jesus for that matter, these are the difficult types. Rebellious, even dangerous. Anyone could be dangerous, though. 

The sync-flow either call us crazy or they attach to us and support our cause, whatever that might be. 

I love sync-flow people, but only, and only, if they support me. Some are gold, but mostly it's a barrel of rotten fish. 

Anyone can be bad, but the contra-flow try and make efforts to change the world. They break free and push reality red pills. This is what is good about them, whether they are murderers or saints. 

Sync-flow: work with us. Let's work towards the one thing that matters - living and having our spirits soar. We could have a great life - not everyone, but everyone onboard.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Majority said:


> I love sync-flow people, but only, and only, if they support me. Some are gold, but mostly it's a barrel of rotten fish.


So only as long as they aren't _contra _to youbasically?


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

It would be a mistake to assume that the sync-flow isn't or cannot be "rebellious". They are or can be very rebellious. They don't have to be a part of the group that most people are part of and frequently change group, job or partner until they find something that matches what they want out of life. They can harbor unpopular opinions, views or beliefs. If your teen do this, it is probably of the sync-flow. 

Still, it is part of some group. That and it isn't gonna be as extreme, in a way, about expressing their views. They just want to belong to a society and act in life-affirming ways. It probably does not occur to them to try and change society with words that could put their careers or social life in jeopardy, or to operate outside of society, they just want to find their own way in it. 

@Distortions If it wasn't clear enough I work for order and love those that appreciate that and who would be a part of that. I make the plans and put them on display for others, the rest must follow or not. There is no other way.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Majority said:


> It would be a mistake to assume that the sync-flow isn't or cannot be "rebellious". They are or can be very rebellious. They don't have to be a part of the group that most people are part of and frequently change group, job or partner until they find something that matches what they want out of life. They can harbor unpopular opinions, views or beliefs. If your teen do this, it is probably of the sync-flow.
> 
> Still, it is part of some group. That and it isn't gonna be as extreme, in a way, about expressing their views. They just want to belong to a society and act in life-affirming ways. It probably does not occur to them to try and change society with words that could put their careers or social life in jeopardy, or to operate outside of society, they just want to find their own way in it.
> 
> @Distortions If it wasn't clear enough I work for order and love those that appreciate that and who would be a part of that. I make the plans and put them on display for others, the rest must follow or not. There is no other way.


They view themselves as born insiders though. They can rebel, but usually it's not in relation to society. More like at a specific person or event or project. Whatever group they pick to be in, they feel a belonging to maintain if not strengthen the experience. Until they decide it's time to move on, or shake things up.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Would the feeling like an insider or having a sense of belonging be relevant to the Social-last stackings though?


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> They view themselves as born insiders though. They can rebel, but usually it's not in relation to society. More like at a specific person or event or project. Whatever group they pick to be in, they feel a belonging to maintain if not strengthen the experience. Until they decide it's time to move on, or shake things up.


They can view themselves as part of a counterculture, though. Still they are born insiders, in a sense, while the contra-flow is a chain of born outsiders - even when they are popular. Trump is a good example. Loved and hated, doing service to his community, but so different - everyone can see it. 

Trump is practically beginning for everyone to work with him - the GOP, the people. But they are a difficult bunch, they are not cooperating. If anyone can get through it is the Donald! Who else would stand a chance?


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Distortions said:


> Would the feeling like an insider or having a sense of belonging be relevant to the Social-last stackings though?


Sosx often describe themselves as outsiders, not part of any group. Probably they never found a healthy group that they liked and so concluded that they were freaks. They may say that they dislike people and have little interest in social dynamics etc. The enneagram is tricky. 

Basically there is not necessarily any feeling like that, but their nature is to be a part of things in order to live, raise a family and all of that.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

I haven't heard of this but I was thinking about the other day how the instinctual variants act like Rock Paper Scissors, one overpowering another (not in the self, but politically almost as a collective agency). Sx is countered by So is countered by Sp is countered by Sx. Right? Sx voice is defeated by So needs. So voice is defeated by Sp needs. Sp voice is defeated by Sx needs. 

So with contra flow it could simply be... self defeating?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Majority said:


> Sosx often describe themselves as outsiders, not part of any group. Probably they never found a healthy group that they liked and so concluded that they were freaks. They may say that they dislike people and have little interest in social dynamics etc. The enneagram is tricky.
> 
> Basically there is not necessarily any feeling like that, but their nature is to be a part of things in order to live, raise a family and all of that.


I don't doubt that an SoSx can feel like an outsider, but I was thinking of say, SxSp. Since they are syn-flow but also Sx-last, would they have much of an investment in feeling like an insider or not?


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Majority said:


> They can view themselves as part of a counterculture, though. Still they are born insiders, in a sense, while the contra-flow is a chain of born outsiders - even when they are popular. Trump is a good example. Loved and hated, doing service to his community, but so different - everyone can see it.
> 
> Trump is practically beginning for everyone to work with him - the GOP, the people. But they are a difficult bunch, they are not cooperating. If anyone can get through it is the Donald! Who else would stand a chance?


Why is Trump contra-flow?


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Majority said:


> Sosx often describe themselves as outsiders, not part of any group. Probably they never found a healthy group that they liked and so concluded that they were freaks. They may say that they dislike people and have little interest in social dynamics etc. The enneagram is tricky.
> 
> Basically there is not necessarily any feeling like that, but their nature is to be a part of things in order to live, raise a family and all of that.


Honestly the so/sx I know literally get along with anyone. They truly don't care who you are, they can connect. Group dynamics is so beta in socionics, I think many types are beyond groups and go for individuals.

I get what you mean though, so doms need acceptance and belonging in relation to other people.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Distortions said:


> I don't doubt that an SoSx can feel like an outsider, but I was thinking of say, SxSp. Since they are syn-flow but also Sx-last, would they have much of an investment in feeling like an insider or not?


Probably not for Sx/Sp. The thing is syn-flow almost barely realize that people feel like outsiders. Things just flow more smoothly. It's almost like if you're an insider, you don't know it. You don't even think of it cause you take it for granted. I spoke with So/Sx who don't see themselves or others in that way. But as So/Sp, I think in terms of outsider/insider a lot. 

Based on the Sp/Sx I know, they do feel like outsiders. Even the way in which their So-last is different than Sx/Sp, cause their Sx plays against their Sp, and they end up with push and pull and also this strong membrane around them.

What about type 4 syn-flow? Would they be able to connect with others easier, but still feel flawed on individual terms? I do know several type 4 sx/sp.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Probably not for Sx/Sp. The thing is syn-flow almost barely realize that people feel like outsiders. Things just flow more smoothly. It's almost like if you're an insider, you don't know it. You don't even think of it cause you take it for granted. I spoke with So/Sx who don't see themselves or others in that way. But as So/Sp, I think in terms of outsider/insider a lot.


Really? I'd think So doms in general would think in terms of outsider/outsider more, since it sounds like a social thing to focus on.

But that reminds me of some So-dom friends I've talked to who will say things like, I don't care about labels, etc, and yet...


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## Majority (Oct 3, 2016)

Distortions said:


> I don't doubt that an SoSx can feel like an outsider, but I was thinking of say, SxSp. Since they are syn-flow but also Sx-last, would they have much of an investment in feeling like an insider or not?


I will assume that you meant that SxSp is So last. 

The chain loops endlessly. It is a direction of energy. So whether it's sx first, or so first, it is still moving in the same direction. SxspsoSxspso>>. Moving towards having your needs met, building a life for yourself and being a part of things. They will all have the same needs, and struggle with them in the same way, but prioritize differently. 

You're sync-flow, but what is your dominant instinct? Probably So, or maybe Sp. You would still handle Sx issues like an Sxsp, and probably observe them and learn from them. 



TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Why is Trump contra-flow?


He's SpSx. Little social regard, as we know, but more than that having a flat made out of gold and trying to build a wall against Mexico is very telling. What kind of person would do that? Only someone of the contra-flow. He hoards resources and build grand things. The 'ordinary' person wouldn't do that, it makes him interesting. Many find him crazy but that's just nature.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Majority said:


> You're sync-flow, but what is your dominant instinct? Probably So, or maybe Sp. You would still handle Sx issues like an Sxsp, and probably observe them and learn from them.


Hm?


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Majority said:


> I will assume that you meant that SxSp is So last.
> 
> The chain loops endlessly. It is a direction of energy. So whether it's sx first, or so first, it is still moving in the same direction. SxspsoSxspso>>. Moving towards having your needs met, building a life for yourself and being a part of things. They will all have the same needs, and struggle with them in the same way, but prioritize differently.
> 
> ...


Interesting, I definitely can see that.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@Majority 
Honestly it's confusing to understand what you're actually saying. I wonder if it's on purpose, because after all, it's harder to tear apart any argument you might have if it's not clear wtf that argument is in the first place.


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