# Te-Ti conflict



## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

Alright so I'm done with the Fe-Fi conflict threads. Based off the same reasoning, I'm thinking that Te-Ti should be conflicting af too (because Fi users are Te users, and Ti users are Fe users too) ...

So yeah. Give it to me. Scientists, fight!


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## VagrantFarce (Jul 31, 2015)

I've seen this example bandied around: Assume you're leading a team, and someone makes a mistake - and you've been asked to approach the situation logically.


Orienting via *Ti* would lead you to try and make sense of the mistake, developing your own sense of logic, from the inside-out. You would then use this understanding as a kind of personal compass, but it wouldn't _really_ apply to anyone else.


Orienting via *Te*, on the other hand, would lead you to simply finds ways of correcting the mistake - there's no greater understanding to attain, the situation is laid bare in front of us, and all we can do is reason our way through it together.
Considering this, its pretty easy to see how they might come into conflict:


Orienting via *Ti*, you might find the Te approach to be blunt, clumsy or overbearing - its more important that everyone get their own understanding, rather than assume you can speak for everyone.


Orienting via *Te*, you might find the Ti approach to be slow-minded, or purposefully contradictory, or just for the sake of not wanting to take part. It's more important that everyone is on the same page, rather than allow them to go their own way.


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## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

VagrantFarce said:


> I've seen this example bandied around: Assume you're leading a team, and someone makes a mistake - and you've been asked to approach the situation logically.
> 
> 
> Orienting via *Ti* would lead you to try and make sense of the mistake, developing your own sense of logic, from the inside-out. You would then use this understanding as a kind of personal compass, but it wouldn't _really_ apply to anyone else.
> ...


Agree, but... I think Te still carries a concern for why the mistake occurred, it's just on a more global basis so that _WE_ do not replicate the same mistake in the future. Or is that more of an STJ thing, with Te influenced by Si needing perspective as it stores away the experience for future reference?


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

Not really a conflict as more of a difference in thinking. Once I went to dinner with an ENFJ and an INTP and our thinking process was very amusing to watch. They both had this "Let's not thinking about stuff out of our control too much because we will overthink them and won't be able to stop." while my attitude was more along the lines of "I want to prepare for possible dangers in order to minimalise them." The INTP was still going deeper than the ENFJ who was content as long as the conversation was going smoothly (but this is difference in dominant functions).

Te-Ti isn't AS conflicting in terms of a dominant functions because both are focused on thinking and little on emotions and, let's be honest, thinking is not what makes people angry, feeling is.


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## VagrantFarce (Jul 31, 2015)

jcal said:


> Agree, but... I think Te still carries a concern for why the mistake occurred, it's just on a more global basis so that _WE_ do not replicate the same mistake in the future. Or is that more of an STJ thing, with Te influenced by Si needing perspective as it stores away the experience for future reference?


Yes - if a mistake is made, then the structure we used didn't work - so obviously we'll need to reflect and come up with a new one, or improve the existing one by making changes or making it easier to follow / understand etc.

But Te, fundamentally, is about imposing a structure on the world around oneself. Ti does not do this, and might even find it to be an affront.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

One thing I noticed is Te seems to care more about determining who is at fault, if there's a mistake.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Prada said:


> Not really a conflict as more of a difference in thinking. Once I went to dinner with an ENFJ and an INTP and our thinking process was very amusing to watch. They both had this "Let's not thinking about stuff out of our control too much because we will overthink them and won't be able to stop." while my attitude was more along the lines of "*I want to prepare for possible dangers in order to minimalise them.*" The INTP was still going deeper than the ENFJ who was content as long as the conversation was going smoothly (but this is difference in dominant functions).
> 
> Te-Ti isn't AS conflicting in terms of a dominant functions because both are focused on thinking and little on emotions and, let's be honest, thinking is not what makes people angry, feeling is.


"If we do not receive our cheese sticks in a timely manner, we must be prepared to minimize risks and reduce 2% of our tip"


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

Prada said:


> Not really a conflict as more of a difference in thinking. Once I went to dinner with an ENFJ and an INTP and our thinking process was very amusing to watch. They both had this "Let's not thinking about stuff out of our control too much because we will overthink them and won't be able to stop." while my attitude was more along the lines of "I want to prepare for possible dangers in order to minimalise them." The INTP was still going deeper than the ENFJ who was content as long as the conversation was going smoothly (but this is difference in dominant functions).
> 
> Te-Ti isn't AS conflicting in terms of a dominant functions because both are focused on thinking and little on emotions and, let's be honest, thinking is not what makes people angry, feeling is.


Aw dag nabbit, another disadvantage of being a feeler. And I had thought that the system was fair.

But thanks for trying to fight, guys. Maybe I'll stick around a little longer to see if there's any blood.


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

VagrantFarce said:


> But Te, fundamentally, is about imposing a structure on the world around oneself. Ti does not do this, and might even find it to be an affront.


Hmm yeah, I think this is basically it. Not as dramatic as Fe Fi, but still.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

I have trouble even noticing the specific peculiarities Ti, so I'm not sure if I experience a Te-Ti conflict.

I think I experience more of a Fi-Ti conflict with INFJs which under-use Fe and overuse Ti because they get weird and kinda like sociopaths.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

The conflict is two-fold: First in how the allocation of energy gets directed (either towards internal or external objects), and second by their inferior functions. 

Thinking directed towards external objects takes on forms that look like "domination" such as organizing, scheduling, standardizing, utilizing, comodifying. I use the term domination because from inferior Fi perspective, it obtains self-worth + self-independence, albeit one-sided/either-or, over the environment (people + objects). 

Thinking directed towards internal objects take on forms of "representing" such as theorizing, abstracting/generalizing, modeling/reducing. I use the term representing because from inferior Fe perspective, the logical products must be valued by virtue of being true / consistent; a strong truth extends beyond the context from which it derives and so harmonizes or brings into relation separate fields. 

The conflict in real-world is apparent; Te dom organizes themselves and others into resources for dominating a market segment. Ti dom wants to be left alone to create some unifying understanding or obtain clarity on how that market segment works. Te user complains that Ti user isn't moving fast enough, failing to follow/meet the agenda/mile stones set by Te user. Ti user complains that Te course of action overlooks/undermines certain pet core/foundational principles that will eventually come back to bite everyone in the ass. Hilarity ensures!


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## goamare (Feb 27, 2014)

goodthankyou said:


> Alright so I'm done with the Fe-Fi conflict threads. Based off the same reasoning, I'm thinking that Te-Ti should be conflicting af too


I'd say it's basically very similar to J-P conflict.
Te(TJ) brings a logic, sticks with it, and applies it quickly. His goal is more about going forward and getting stuff done.
Ti(TP) brings a logic but perceives more than one perspectives of it, thus cannot apply the brought logic right away and ends up using something with his own tweak.




goodthankyou said:


> (because Fi users are Te users, and Ti users are Fe users too) ...


Hmm. I think many of the posts that I wrote for you should tell you that you're off on this one.. Fi users are rather supposed to be Te "repressers" and Ti users are supposed to be Fe "repressers." Not to say that everyone would be as I say, because there are other factors generating exceptions. But such a notion is against the gist of the theory, unfortunately.


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

Ti on Te: Blunt, tyrannical
Te on Ti: Slow, impractical

That's generally how it always is. If they're not seeing eye to eye, the extroverted function thinks the introverted one is boring and impotent, and the introverted function thinks the extroverted one is shallow and obnoxious.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Prada said:


> Te-Ti isn't AS conflicting in terms of a dominant functions because both are focused on thinking and little on emotions and, let's be honest, thinking is not what makes people angry, feeling is.





goodthankyou said:


> Aw dag nabbit, another disadvantage of being a feeler. And I had thought that the system was fair.
> 
> But thanks for trying to fight, guys. Maybe I'll stick around a little longer to see if there's any blood.


In my experience, with two NT's, they're more likely to reach impasses or stalemate one another. For example, one of my INTP friends and I always find some new angle to look at what the other has proposed as a seemingly complete theory. One time we were discussing free will and reading an article about it, and I finally arrived at something that seemed cohesive and made sense. But he found something else to put the article into question. And I've kinda done similar things with ideas he's brought up (I can't think of an example for that right now, but I can say I get "oh yeah, you're right. Didn't even think of that" a lot). 

He's usually the one to finally say, "I've kinda given up thinking about this idea because there's just no answer that's good enough and I'll drive myself nuts going in circles with it". 

I think Ti and Te might "fight" if one happens to deeply violate another's values, and then they go into toddler F mode. But that is the same for any two T users; they could be both Te or both Ti. I get into more actual disagreements with my dad (likely an ISTP but he can't be bothered with taking tests on the internet). He thinks I am being "argumentative" when I question his suggestions/advice and he gets kinda emo about it. "Okay, I was just throwing out a suggestion, I'm not gonna argue with you about this. You can go argue somewhere else" lol. I don't really have any ISTP friends so I dunno if this is a common dynamic, or just because of the fact he's my dad. I know one who's more of an acquaintance/friend-of-friend and he seemed to go quiet when a friend of mine argued something he said.


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## ENTPness (Apr 18, 2015)

Best way to think of it is that Te is "The Man" and Ti is "The Rebel." (And is therefore naturally much cooler than those Te squares.) Te imposes and enforces "the rules" of "the system." Ti plays by its own rules and doesn't care to take part in Te's "system" unless it sees a damn good reason to do so. _The Matrix_ is really the ultimate expression of this conflict, with the suited Agents (Te) being literal tools of a literal machine tasked with enforcing order and suppressing free will, and Neo (Ti) being "the one" who can set everyone free with "the truth," at which point everyone can make their own decisions on what to do with it.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Ti - "here is what it is, what else there is to it?"

Te - "here is what it is, what is next?"


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Gregg Popovich, an ESTJ 1w9 represents solid Te. He answers questions directly and doesn't dig deep like Ti does.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> One thing I noticed is Te seems to care more about determining who is at fault, if there's a mistake.


To me, it's more important to move forward and to fix the problem than to spend time dwelling on who messed up. The functionality of the system and its ultimate success is more important to me. Finding the weak link and repairing it matters more. Ultimately I would see it as my fault for not foreseeing the problem, or not being clear with instruction, or not clearly defining expectations. 



Maybe what you are describing is more of an ESTJ trait - they tend to be better at managing minutiae and measuring success of the individual parts of the system against a set of expected standards. Props to them because I don't have interest in or the patience for that.


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## Lelu (Jun 1, 2015)

MsBossyPants said:


> To me, it's more important to move forward and to fix the problem than to spend time dwelling on who messed up. The functionality of the system and its ultimate success is more important to me. Finding the weak link and repairing it matters more. Ultimately I would see it as my fault for not foreseeing the problem, or not being clear with instruction, or not clearly defining expectations.


I agree with this completely. I could care less who is responsible, so long as the problem is fixed now and in the future, that is what matters. I tend to feel responsible in a job as well for not influencing a stronger outcome when a problem occurs.

I have no patience for those that play any blame game. That's useless politics, and I can't stand others to waste my time on politics instead of fixing the problem.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

umop 3pisdn said:


> Te on Ti: Slow, impractical


The word you're looking for is inefficient.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

MsBossyPants said:


> To me, it's more important to move forward and to fix the problem than to spend time dwelling on who messed up. The functionality of the system and its ultimate success is more important to me. Finding the weak link and repairing it matters more. Ultimately I would see it as my fault for not foreseeing the problem, or not being clear with instruction, or not clearly defining expectations.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe what you are describing is more of an ESTJ trait - they tend to be better at managing minutiae and measuring success of the individual parts of the system against a set of expected standards. Props to them because I don't have interest in or the patience for that.


No, it's very much Te, what I'm describing. However, maturity makes it to where it becomes less of an issue. Just like Fe makes ExTPs becomes less rebellious and more cooperative, Ne/Se makes ExTJs more aware of outside factors and focus less on minute details. Enneagram integration probably helps, too. That said, many ExTPs are uncooperative and insist on doing things their way, even if less effective. While many ExTJs are bossy and make ignorant generalizations without research.



Prada said:


> The word you're looking for is inefficient.


I think the difference there, too, is accuracy vs round up. Te says that if something is 90% likely to happen as 'A', then it's more efficient to assume 100% 'A', absorbed the 10% 'B', and thus be more efficient. Ti says catching that 10% 'B' is important and thus wishes to devote resources and analysis.

I notice, for example, that uninformed Te loves to strawman EVERYWHERE. I'm talking more the Te users on my Facebook (ESTJs, mostly). Arguing with them is useless as they would perceive the attention to details as unnecessary when the answer is *obvious*.

For example, sitting on the floor, and not moving is something kids do. The US Senate DEMs has members doing that, thus they are pouting like kids. They should also be ashamed for not doing their jobs and wasting taxpayer money for sitting on their ass. However, my Ti would like to point out there's a variety of reasons why. ExTJs might do the same, and having the tertiary Se/Ne helps in that analysis.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> No, it's very much Te, what I'm describing. However, maturity makes it to where it becomes less of an issue. Just like Fe makes ExTPs becomes less rebellious and more cooperative, Ne/Se makes ExTJs more aware of outside factors and focus less on minute details. Enneagram integration probably helps, too. That said, many ExTPs are uncooperative and insist on doing things their way, even if less effective.* While many EXTJs are bossy and make ignorant generalizations without research*.


Bit of a generalization there. :dry:

Don't do research? To me, that seems counterproductive to problem solving. A Te-dom needs to have tested information in front of him to make a decision that's based on fact gathering and organizing. I would argue that people who *don't* use Te to fact gather are more likely to make generalizations because they are only looking at the problem from their own perspective, rather than looking outward and taking in objective information as it relates to the subject. 



> I think the difference there, too, is accuracy vs round up. *Te says that if something is 90% likely to happen as 'A', then it's more efficient to assume 100% 'A'*, absorbed the 10% 'B', and thus be more efficient. Ti says catching that 10% 'B' is important and thus wishes to devote resources and analysis.


Well, no. If something is shown to be 90% likely to happen, for me, it would merely be a relatively safe predictor that unless something changes, it's likely to continue to be 90%. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily the best big picture outcome. My Te-Ni would be searching for the *best *outcome*. 
*
When I look at a system, I'm not looking to tweak the existing sytem to run more efficiently, I'm more likely considering if continuing to run with what's already there is the most efficient system process. It works now, but how is that going to hold up 5 years from now? What can we do to stay ahead of the curve? What potential problems can be averted? What new and innovative ideas can propel us forward to design a better system? *What's the best idea?* That's the one that's ultimately more efficient. I'm willing to hear you out on your 10% idea. Show me why it's better, and I'll run with it. 

What you are describing is more of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" thought process. Again this is more likely to be relatable to ESTJ, who tend to rely on the concrete, the tried-and-true, and not a blanket description that also applies to ENTJs whose thought process is more abstract and forward thinking. We may both be Te-doms, but we think differently. You're generalizing.


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

Prada said:


> The word you're looking for is inefficient.


I found the words I was looking for, thanks.

Efficiency isn't really that clear of a way to cut it (but I guess it is 'efficient'?) Both a 'good fit' (Te) and a 'perfect' (Ti) solution or model are going to be efficient for different reasons, the former because it can be employed quickly, and the latter because it's essentially frictionless or perfectly conservative even if it takes a long time to produce. It's basically a short-term vs long-term efficiency problem imo.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

MsBossyPants said:


> Bit of a generalization there. :dry:
> 
> Don't do research? To me, that seems counterproductive to problem solving. A Te-dom needs to have tested information in front of him to make a decision that's based on fact gathering and organizing. I would argue that people who *don't* use Te to fact gather are more likely to make generalizations because they are only looking at the problem from their own perspective, rather than looking outward and taking in objective information as it relates to the subject.
> 
> ...


Bossy-Boss, let's revisit my semantics:



> That said, *many* ExTPs are uncooperative and insist on doing things their way, even if less effective. While *many* EXTJs are bossy and make ignorant generalizations without research.


I'm referring to those, of both these subtypes, who give the rest of us a bad name. I'm arguing that Te + Ni/Si as well as Ne/Se + Ti is not enough. You, my friend, represent a solid caricature of a respectable ENTJ that does demand efficiency while also having the perception to increase likelihood from 90% to 98%. I try to make my 100% analysis, much quicker and Fe allows me to cut the corners, when it's good for the group. My comment is not a generalization of all types but rather acknowledging that the bell curve exists. And within that bellcurve, the lesser half of each type uses Te & Ti is incomplete ways.

I've known ENTJs who are arrogant and myopic in their views while others that are true visionaries. Plenty of ESTJs in both camps. Surely, you aren't insinuating that all ENTJs are excellent at directing others?


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Drunk Parrot said:


> One thing I noticed is Te seems to care more about determining who is at fault, if there's a mistake.


That would be Fi?

Or you're talking about "objective" fault?


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> Bossy-Boss, let's revisit my semantics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pointing out that your framing of the critique of how EXTJ behaves is more rooted in your perception of Te-Si (ESTJ) behavior, and doesn't necessarily apply to The Te-Ni used by ENTJ.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

MsBossyPants said:


> I'm pointing out that your framing of the critique of how EXTJ behaves is more rooted in your perception of Te-Si (ESTJ) behavior, and doesn't necessarily apply to The Te-Ni used by ENTJ.


Well sure it's more common as ESTJs are more common. But it's not like I haven't known plenty of ENTJs. I'm an extrovert who studies everyone I meet. Some ENTJs think they know everything with their Ni. When really they're just half-way competent at best. I'd say dumb ESTJs are the worse, though, when it comes to spreading misinformation that they assume to be "obvious". Mature ESTJs don't do this. It comes down to both cognitive and emotional maturity.

And again, there's ignorant ENTPs/ESTPs as well. Not sure why you have a problem with this conclusion.



Earthious said:


> That would be Fi?
> 
> Or you're talking about "objective" fault?


No, Te likes to blame and demands accountability. Good Te leaders understand the practicality and try to make it a learning scenario. Dumb ones just try to find blame and don't care if it's accurate.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Ti: "Let's take these things apart so we can understand them better"

Te: "Let's put these things together so they can work more efficiently"


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Drunk Parrot said:


> Well sure it's more common as ESTJs are more common. But it's not like I haven't known plenty of ENTJs. I'm an extrovert who studies everyone I meet. Some ENTJs think they know everything with their Ni. When really they're just half-way competent at best. I'd say dumb ESTJs are the worse, though, when it comes to spreading misinformation that they assume to be "obvious". Mature ESTJs don't do this. It comes down to both cognitive and emotional maturity.
> 
> And again, there's ignorant ENTPs/ESTPs as well. Not sure why you have a problem with this conclusion.
> 
> ...


Oh, true


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## cipherpixy (Jul 9, 2015)

Te - Ti difference is basically standardized (Te) vs customized (Ti). Te tries to fit in to the environment and Ti tries to fit the environment unto him. So, a Te user will trained himself to meet the needs of his environment whereas a Ti user will tweak the environment to meet his needs. Likewise, Te will fine tune himself to meet the precision of his environment, whereas Ti will fine tune his environment to meet his own precision.

Te user knows the environment well and so he will chart his course by planning ahead. Ti user on the other hand knows himself well and won't emphasize planning because he knows he can adapt and "make things adapt to him" as they come.

Te will make rules and guidelines in order for us to follow so we can chart the course with relative ease. 
Ti will bend and break those rules and guidelines in order for him to chart the course with relative ease. 

Both values accuracy but they emphasize differently, Te externally, whereas Ti internally. 
Conflict point is evident here when a Te user will assert why the environment should conform to a Ti user and Ti user will similarly assert why he should conform to the environment. It's practically 'inside the box'(Te) vs 'outside the box'(Ti) difference in approach. Te emphasize the highest common denominator whereas Ti, to each his own. 

A Ti user and a Te user will differ in their approach but a Ti user and another Ti user will also differ in their approach. Each Ti user is different in their approach since the emphasis is on the self.


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

@Drunk Parrot @umop 3pisdn I'm not sure if I should bother explaining what was the joke or that Te-doms DO joke but you both missed it by such a long shot it's not worth it.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Prada said:


> @Drunk Parrot @umop 3pisdn I'm not sure if I should bother explaining what was the joke or that Te-doms DO joke but you both missed it by such a long shot it's not worth it.


Are you talking about "The word you're looking for is inefficient"? As far as humor goes, that was deficient. Wow, awful execution. But NTJs are very good at making jokes that only they find funny. :tongue:


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

Prada said:


> @Drunk Parrot @umop 3pisdn I'm not sure if I should bother explaining what was the joke or that Te-doms DO joke but you both missed it by such a long shot it's not worth it.


I don't think I missed much.

It would have been funny if I was in on it, but instead it was just annoying trying to figure out what you mean.


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