# Analysis of being a 4-5-8: The Scholar



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

*Analysis of being a 4-5-8: The Scholar*
I think this has been long due, but perhaps a necessary post for me to write. I have been thinking of my tritype a lot recently, both in terms of anger, my need for uniqueness and also my desire to be withdrawn and keep things at arm’s length. The way the 458 tritype works is that there is a strange synergy between all for fixation points, but the synergy is more of a convergence when all motivations line up and point towards one direction but in all other ways the motivations of each fixation work against each other, creating a sense of being scattered, chaotic, lack of focus, a mission and a purpose in life. 

What is common for all fixation points is a sense of lack or that something is missing. 4 lacks an identity to call its own, 5 lacks knowledge and competence and 8 lacks fulfillment and satisfaction. I would say this sense of lacking or missing something is one of the defining features of my life but looking back, and I think the Fauvres summarize the life purpose of 458 perfectly – I desire that which is innately human. One might wonder what “innately human” means and why it is that the 458 tritype out of all tritypes is the most likely to desire this and again, one must look at the sense of lack which stems from all fixation points. 

When studying the holy idea of 4 which is Holy Origin, we can see that 4 is driven by a need to belong and feel unity with the world at large but due to internal shame, does not feel one is worthy or desirable enough to do so. Similarly, the holy idea of 5, Holy Omniscience, is the desire to feel connected with the universe through knowledge. We desire to know all and by doing so, we have the power to do anything. However, just like 4s, there is a sense of being flawed and incomplete, this omniscience can never be reached or attained. Lastly, the holy idea of 8 is Holy Truth. Holy Truth is also a concept of unity, that all is one and one is all. It takes the idea of dualism and turns it into monism. Just like the 4, 8s feel that they are separated, it is them against the world and it is only by conquering the world that they can regain this sense of unity where all is one. 

What separates the types is thus how they manage this sense of loss and separation. The logic of 4 is that if I cannot have it, I will go my own way and become how I want to be to prove myself worthy. In a way, it is thus fair to say that 4s reject their desires by emphasizing their difference. 5 on the other hand, does it in an entirely opposite manner and thinks that if one cannot have it, then one has not done enough to prove one’s worth. We need to learn more and become better and once we reach a specific state of equilibrium we will finally attain the true knowledge and wisdom which we seek. There is specific overlap with how 8 deals with their sense of loss with 4 and 5 – 8 will also do things its own way. If you’re not with me you’re against me and I will prove that I can manage on my own in order to show you my worth. If you do not want me I do not need you either. In this sense it is easy to see how both 4 and 8 are reactive types. However, just like 5, 8 will actively seek out what it truly desires instead of rejecting and ignore those wishes like the 4 does. 

In the light of these fixation motivations, it is easy to see how 458 represents an inner feeling of ultimate loss and lack of belonging and more specifically so, that which is innately human. Innate humanity thus represents a desire for humanity itself. It is a craving to feel unity and belonging, because what unites all three fixation points is a feeling of not belonging. To 4, one is much too flawed to belong, a 5 is too stupid and incompetent to belong and 8 is too weak to belong. 

When looking at my own life philosophies, it is interesting how they reflect the holy ideas of 4, 5 and 8. I have for a very long time believed in unity, that we are all a part of something greater, bigger and better than this (4). I also believe in free will (4, 5 and 8) and believe that if we can know every aspect of something (5 and 8), we will be able to predict the future (5), but knowing the future gives us an ability to choose and act against these outcomes (8) and decide of what we want and who we want to be (4). I also ultimately believe in monism over dualism, and I think that concepts such as Yin and Yang merely represent two sides of the same coin (8), and it is only by examining all sides and realize how they are essential to each other that we can achieve greater wisdom that permeates time (5). 

So why is 458 being called the Scholar and not something else? I actually think the name of the tritype is part misleading because 458s aren’t necessarily scholars in the actual sense of the word. You will not always find a 458 in a dusty hallway studying old manuscripts of old and teach the wisdoms to other people although teaching wisdom is indeed an important aspect of 458 for reasons I will cover below. Instead, the word “scholar” refers to the 458’s search for eternal wisdom and knowledge about life and what it means to be alive and how the 458 will share this knowledge once such insight is attained. I was once called a sage by another member on Personality Café and what is interesting about the 458 is that while we may not always make a lot of fuss about ourselves depending on our core type, people are always willing to listen to what we say, perhaps because there is genuine truth and wisdom in our words because no person has struggled as much and spent as much time trying to understand the mysteries of life as a 458. When a 458 says something, we always do it with the intention of what we say is being useful. We do not say things for the sake of saying things because there is always meaning and intent in our words. 

Out of all the tritypes I’ve studied, there is also a strange feeling of loss carried by the 458 which can be gleaned in their manners, the way they think and talk and behave around others. A perfect and fairly known example of a 458 is professor Snape from the Harry Potter franchise. Dark, intense and brooding Snape seems to constantly be thrown between different kinds of extremities. This is because of how the different fixations constantly oppose each other in the tritype. 4 desires emotional intensity which is contrary to the nature of 5 that prefers emotional coldness because the world is much too dangerous and being emotionally cold is one of the defense mechanisms of how the 5 withdraws and maintains a distance, but 8 desires power, domination and control which is contrary to both 4 and 5 that are withdrawn types and rather introspect than dealing with the world directly. The nature of 8 also amplifies the emotionality of 4 due to how the 8’s passion of Lust manifests itself. The 458 can thus at one point be completely overcome by her feelings and flair of drama from the 4 fixation one moment, and then become incredibly aloof, uncaring and emotionally cold like a 5 the other, and this coldness is emphasized if the 8 influence is strong. These mood swings might not be apparent to an outsider however, especially if the 4 fixation has a 5 wing as showing overt displays of emotion is not in the nature of the 458, with the exception probably being if a sexual 4 subtype and with a possible 3 wing or strong 3 influence as 4w3s are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves than other types. If 5 has a 4 wing, the 458 might even appear as a 4 but this might not be known to outsiders who do not know the 458. 

The 458 is also a very withdrawn type and is perhaps the primary example of the lone wolf. Being double-withdrawn by having two withdrawn types in the tritype, it is probably hard to find an extroverted 458, although a strong social instinct can probably lessen the intensity and need to withdraw. If self-preservation or sexual, the 458 is probably likely to be extremely aloof, especially if core 4 or 5 just like Snape. If less healthy, the 458 can also be very grumpy, especially if the 8 influence is strong, and one might be reminded of such characters such as the Grinch or Mr. Scrooge who are probably both good examples of unhealthy 8s themselves. 

Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence. If the 458 has a strong sexual instinct and is a core 5 or 8, it is also likely that the 458 can be incredibly competitive due to having two power types in the tritype. 

Another peculiar feature of 458 which is more related to the combination of 4 and 8, especially if the 4 has a 5 wing, is that the 458 seems to appear as uninterested, dissatisfied, to be scowling or right-out bored, especially if 5 is strong and the 458 is in what can probably be best described as observation-mode. They can however be caught looking dreamy when they think no one will see them, and while the 458 tends to often have a very analytical and grounded approach to life, especially if the core 4 type is 4w5 or if core 5 or 8 with strong influence. This is because that while 458s inherently believe in that they are not worthy of their dreams going back to their feelings of lack, they deep down desire this unity with humanity and the cosmos no matter what and they might spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is they actually want or desire in life and what life truly means to them. 

Despite their often projected tough exterior, especially if they are core 5s or 8s and are men, probably even more so if sexual or self-preservation first, 458s are extremely sensitive and emotional. They can be very cynical and maybe even right-out misanthropic but deep down they still want to believe in that there is genuine goodness in the world. If the 8 influence is strong, they might even over-emphasize their non-good aspects of themselves in combination with 4 of not being worthy: “I’m a bad person and I know it and it will not change because it is who I am”. The qualities of 8 become a part of the 4 image. 

Fiercely loyal, the 458 while hard to befriend is a friend you have for life. One ought to be reminded of Snape’s undying love for Lily and how he was willing to do anything for her. This is part because once the 458 has found the representation of innate humanity, we will do everything in our might to chase it and have it back. Especially if we lost it which we are bound to do. There is thus a tendency for the 458 to idealize and mythologize this aspect of innate humanity, especially if it represents another object or another person. Perhaps one can part trace this to the 8’s notion of innocence, but it is also most definitely coupled with the 4’s need for acceptance and the 5’s need to be at peace of mind. If one is just in possession of this innate humanity (does not mean that the 458 must perceive herself as human though), all problems will be solved and one will finally be at peace with oneself and the world and achieve ultimate happiness. 

The 458 is a complex tritype and while there is commonality in the fixation motivations, their different drives and powers creates a person prone to extreme mood swings and is highly independent due to 4, 5 and 8 all being types that are unlikely to value human connection, especially if social last. While they may appear as gloomy and quirky and sometimes even right-out mean and destructive, not only to oneself but also towards others, the 458 is in possession of a specific type of wisdom in the pursuit to find innate humanity and has a strong desire to share these findings with others. Being incredibly stubborn, it is unlikely that the 458 will give up in the chase for knowledge and wisdom despite what logic tells them to, and they will most likely not listen to you no matter how good your advice is, because the 458 is in control of her own mind and body and is unlikely to listen to what other tell her to do and will resist if she experiences a risk of being dominated and controlled, especially if 5w4 for head and 4w5 for image.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

My only comment is this:

@_LeaT_, you're missing the _entire _purpose of the Enneagram if you're using it to glorify your supposed tritype.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> My only comment is this:
> 
> @_LeaT_, you're missing the _entire _purpose of the Enneagram if you're using it to glorify your supposed tritype.


I am not. I went over quite a few negative points (more so than I honestly feel I went over positive) but the point wasn't so much to glorify or anything but to merely explain how it works in my mind. So I think you missed the point of this post, to be honest. That I summarized it a bit positively towards the end is because that's kind of a requirement of the structure of an essay. Otherwise it would appear incomplete and sound rather stupid to me.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I am not. I went over quite a few negative points (more so than I honestly feel I went over positive) but the point wasn't so much to glorify or anything but to merely explain how it works in my mind. So I think you missed the point of this post, to be honest. That I summarized it a bit positively towards the end is because that's kind of a requirement of the structure of an essay. Otherwise it would appear incomplete and sound rather stupid to me.


Your so-called "negative" points are more about you raving about how this tritype is so Dark and Mysterious and Misunderstood and Brooding and Esoteric. Lone wolf, and all. It's not easy to read in between the lines, and you have derailed several threads so far to talk about your tritype, for absolutely no reason at all. This is an *incredibly* theatrical thread, and I can't see any other purpose than to make your tritype seem like something unusual. 

Half of what you said if not more is about behavioral things (appears uninterested, aloof, bored, etc..) with nothing substantial relating it back to the theory. You briefly went over the Holy Ideas to make it sound smart, but you more often than not missed the entire point. 

Also, comparing this tritype to a character from Harry Potter? Really?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Your so-called "negative" points are more about you raving about how this tritype is so Dark and Mysterious and Misunderstood and Brooding and Esoteric. Lone wolf, and all. It's not easy to read in between the lines, and you have derailed several threads so far to talk about your tritype, for absolutely no reason at all. This is an *incredibly* theatrical thread, and I can't see any other purpose than to make your tritype seem like something unusual.
> 
> Half of what you said if not more is about behavioral things (appears uninterested, aloof, bored, etc..) with nothing substantial relating it back to the theory. You briefly went over the Holy Ideas to make it sound smart, but you more often than not missed the entire point.
> 
> Also, comparing this tritype to a character from Harry Potter? Really?


Again, missing the point. Go on, keep projecting.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Again, missing the point. Go on, keep projecting.


Oh, right. The Point.

What_ is_ the point of this, anyway? :tongue:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Oh, right. The Point.
> 
> What_ is_ the point of this, anyway? :tongue:


To convey my point of view and create an open discussion would someone have an interest in responding which I honestly didn't think people would because it's rare to see people respond when I write lengthy posts since most go tl;dr. Definitely not being accused for being dramatic, glorifying and derailing other threads which is rather ironic considering what you're doing right now. 

Maybe you should look at yourself first before you open your mouth next time.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

It'd be pretty cool if we could get tritype descriptions written by people with every tritype. I don't think we'd manage to cover all of them, but personality descriptions are always better when coming from first hand experience (as long as they're not biased).


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

> Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence


This to me is something that easily can be construed as negative. 



> In a way, it is thus fair to say that 4s reject their desires by emphasizing their difference. 5 on the other hand, does it in an entirely opposite manner and thinks that if one cannot have it


And this has been a pretty paralyzing influence on my life. I wind up wasting a lot of time feeling powerless/conflicted, when I could be bettering my situation. I see no inherent positive to this conflict, except that in the best case scenario when the forces are reconciled, one could come up with an approach which satiates two contradictory forces, and which is thus quite unique. But nobody is to say this will successfully be achieved at all. A 4-5-8 can wind up failing to be the best it can be.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kito said:


> It'd be pretty cool if we could get tritype descriptions written by people with every tritype. I don't think we'd manage to cover all of them, but personality descriptions are always better when coming from first hand experience (as long as they're not biased).


Yes, that was one of my intentions actually. I'd like to see that too because it would be interesting to see how others perceive their own types and how it is like to be that person. That was indeed part of the point with this thread. Perhaps it'd inspire others to do the same. If I wanted to go over deep core motivations I could as well pick up a book about enneagram but that doesn't describe how it is like to be an XXX type.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

LeaT said:


> To convey my point of view and create an open discussion would someone have an interest in responding which I honestly didn't think people would because it's rare to see people respond when I write lengthy posts since most go tl;dr. Definitely not being accused for being dramatic, glorifying and derailing other threads which is rather ironic considering what you're doing right now.
> 
> Maybe you should look at yourself first before you open your mouth next time.


Ah, the "I'm not stupid, you are!" retort - very mature. 

My comment was entirely relevant, as it tackles the content and intent of your post, _*none of which*_ you addressed. Further proof that you can't back yourself up. Let's see if people will actually take you seriously. I said what I had to say. I wasn't expecting you to be able to respond properly anyway.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Ah, the "I'm not stupid, you are!" retort - very mature.
> 
> My comment was entirely relevant, as it tackles the content and intent of your post, _*none of which*_ you addressed. Further proof that you can't back yourself up. Let's see if people will actually take you seriously. I said what I had to say. I wasn't expecting you to be able to respond properly anyway.


Then why even post in the first place? And nope, I didn't imply you are stupid, I do however think there's a certain irony with the way you are proceeding with things here. 

My intent of the post was to describe how I experience my tritype which should be extremely evident from the title of this thread, and the content reflects the title. Whatever meanings you read further into that are things you are reading, not something I personally intended.

Also, considering your passive-aggressive and accusatory nature, I definitely do not have to explain or justify things to your liking. Had you asked nicely, maybe I would've bothered to explain but you're not. You're just here to create drama and that is all.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

It's so ironic, how you get called passive aggressive when you actually confront someone :laughing:


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

It seems that this thread is filled with more ironies than one. 

But @Kito and @LeaT I think it would be nice to form a compilation of personal tritype descriptions (wings and instincts can be added as well) from the various members of the forum and have it stickied.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> It's so ironic, how you get called passive aggressive when you actually confront someone :laughing:


Leave the passive aggressiveness to those of us who do it best. :laughing:


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Guys, knock it off.

Being a supposedly highly passive-aggressive type myself, I get a bit annoyed when this term is bandied about at the slightest disagreement. Arguing back and making jabs is _not_ considered passive-aggressive in nature, and moveover, I don't understand how "passive-aggression" is worse than "aggression" on all these online forums.

For reference:


> Passive aggressive behaviour takes many forms but can generally be described as a non-verbal aggression that manifests in negative behavior. It is where you are angry with someone but do not or cannot tell them. Instead of communicating honestly when you feel upset, annoyed, irritated or disappointed you may instead bottle the feelings up, shut off verbally, give angry looks, make obvious changes in behaviour, be obstructive, sulky or put up a stone wall. It may also involve indirectly resisting requests from others by evading or creating confusion around the issue. Not going along with things. It can either be covert (concealed and hidden) or overt (blatant and obvious).


I'm not getting that from either of you in this thread or elsewhere.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

<3 @holyrockthrower.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Kito said:


> It'd be pretty cool if we could get tritype descriptions written by people with every tritype. I don't think we'd manage to cover all of them, but personality descriptions are always better when coming from first hand experience (as long as they're not biased).


Working on it: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...connection-yourself-alternate-influences.html


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I'm either a 8-4-5 or a 8-4-7, but I will respond regardless. I love the long analysis =)

I relate to the bolded.



LeaT said:


> Analysis of being a 4-5-8: The Scholar
> I think this has been long due, but perhaps a necessary post for me to write. I have been thinking of my tritype a lot recently, both in terms of anger,* my need for uniqueness and also my desire to be withdrawn and keep things at arm’s length.* The way the 458 tritype works is that there is a strange synergy between all for fixation points, but the synergy is more of a convergence when all motivations line up and point towards one direction but in all other ways the motivations of each fixation work against each other, creating a sense of being scattered, chaotic, lack of focus, a *mission and a purpose in life. *
> 
> What is common for all fixation points is a sense of lack or that something is missing.* 4 lacks an identity to call its own, 5 lacks knowledge and competence and 8 lacks fulfillment and satisfaction.* I would say this sense of lacking or missing something is one of the defining features of my life but looking back, and I think the Fauvres summarize the life purpose of 458 perfectly – I desire that which is innately human. One might wonder what “innately human” means and why it is that the 458 tritype out of all tritypes is the most likely to desire this and again, one must look at the sense of lack which stems from all fixation points.
> ...


So far I relate to all of this. The next part, not sure.



> So why is 458 being called the Scholar and not something else? I actually think the name of the tritype is part misleading because 458s aren’t necessarily scholars in the actual sense of the word. You will not always find a 458 in a dusty hallway studying old manuscripts of old and teach the wisdoms to other people although teaching wisdom is indeed an important aspect of 458 for reasons I will cover below. Instead, the word “scholar” refers to the 458’s search for eternal wisdom and *knowledge about life and what it means to be alive and how the 458 will share this knowledge once such insight is attained. I was once called a sage by another member on Personality Café and what is interesting about the 458 is that while we may not always make a lot of fuss about ourselves depending on our core type, people are always willing to listen to what we say, perhaps because there is genuine truth and wisdom in our words because no person has struggled as much and spent as much time trying to understand the mysteries of life as a 458. When a 458 says something, we always do it with the intention of what we say is being useful. We do not say things for the sake of saying things because there is always meaning and intent in our words.
> *


I'd like to think there is always intent and meaning in my words but I'm just not sure. Also, knowledge about life and what it means to be alive, yes.



> Out of all the tritypes I’ve studied, there is also a *strange feeling of loss carried by the 458* which can be gleaned in their manners, the way they think and talk and behave around others. A perfect and fairly known example of a 458 is professor Snape from the Harry Potter franchise. Dark, intense and brooding Snape seems to constantly be thrown between different kinds of extremities. This is because of how the different fixations constantly oppose each other in the tritype. *4 desires emotional intensity which is contrary to the nature of 5 that prefers emotional coldness because the world is much too dangerous and being emotionally cold is one of the defense mechanisms of how the 5 withdraws and maintains a distance, but 8 desires power, domination and control which is contrary to both 4 and 5 that are withdrawn types and rather introspect than dealing with the world directly. The nature of 8 also amplifies the emotionality of 4 due to how the 8’s passion of Lust manifests itself. The 458 can thus at one point be completely overcome by her feelings and flair of drama from the 4 fixation one moment, and then become incredibly aloof, uncaring and emotionally cold like a 5 the other, and this coldness is emphasized if the 8 influence is strong. These mood swings might not be apparent to an outsider however, especially if the 4 fixation has a 5 wing as showing overt displays of emotion is not in the nature of the 458, with the exception probably being if a sexual 4 subtype and with a possible 3 wing or strong 3 influence as 4w3s are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves than other types. If 5 has a 4 wing, the 458 might even appear as a 4 but this might not be known to outsiders who do not know the 458. *


Yeah.. 4w3 fixed, and I wear my emotions on my sleeve. The mood swings here are relatable, and keeping most of it inside (except literally wearing clothes to express my emotions) is accurate.



> *The 458 is also a very withdrawn type and is perhaps the primary example of the lone wolf. *


Yes, this is me. Independent to the bone.



> *Being double-withdrawn by having two withdrawn types in the tritype, it is probably hard to find an extroverted 458, although a strong social instinct can probably lessen the intensity and need to withdraw. If self-preservation or sexual, the 458 is probably likely to be extremely aloof, especially if core 4 or 5 just like Snape. If less healthy, the 458 can also be very grumpy, especially if the 8 influence is strong, and one might be reminded of such characters such as the Grinch or Mr. Scrooge who are probably both good examples of unhealthy 8s themselves*.


I'm extraverted as far as functions. I'm pretty quiet and aloof with people I don't know, if not entirely removed. With friends, I hang out wth people with whom I have strong SX connections. If there's a group, I introduced them all and I know them best. I'm the center. Nevertheless I'll operate like a lone wolf within a group setting, fairly quietly. Even when I was band leader or ran my apartment, I was aloof "lone wolf" at gatherings that were built around me. heh.



> *Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence. If the 458 has a strong sexual instinct and is a core 5 or 8, it is also likely that the 458 can be incredibly competitive due to having two power types in the tritype. *
> 
> *Another peculiar feature of 458 which is more related to the combination of 4 and 8, especially if the 4 has a 5 wing, is that the 458 seems to appear as uninterested, dissatisfied, to be scowling or right-out bored, especially if 5 is strong and the 458 is in what can probably be best described as observation-mode.*


I can belike this but I'm usually more 'uninterested' or "observing " if anything. I might be 7 fixed though. Then again, I do get into observation-mode quite often.



> *They can however be caught looking dreamy when they think no one will see them, and while the 458 tends to often have a very analytical and grounded approach to life, especially if the core 4 type is 4w5 or if core 5 or 8 with strong influence. This is because that while 458s inherently believe in that they are not worthy of their dreams going back to their feelings of lack, they deep down desire this unity with humanity and the cosmos no matter what and they might spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is they actually want or desire in life and what life truly means to them. *
> 
> Despite their often projected tough exterior, especially if they are core 5s or 8s and are men, probably even more so if sexual or self-preservation first, *458s are extremely sensitive and emotional. They can be very cynical and maybe even right-out misanthropic but deep down they still want to believe in that there is genuine goodness in the world.* If the 8 influence is strong, they might even over-emphasize their non-good aspects of themselves in combination with 4 of not being worthy: “I’m a bad person and I know it and it will not change because it is who I am”. The qualities of 8 become a part of the 4 image.
> 
> ...


This is a blessing and a curse. It's great when I'm writing my book and I don't need anyone else for months. It sucks when I am in a social setting and have no idea what to do, because I don't care, and I have never cared; but my mom or my family is telling me, "Behave!!" =p



> *While they may appear as gloomy and quirky and sometimes even right-out mean and destructive, not only to oneself but also towards others, the 458 is in possession of a specific type of wisdom in the pursuit to find innate humanity and has a strong desire to share these findings with others. *Being incredibly stubborn, it is unlikely that the 458 will give up in the chase for knowledge and wisdom despite what logic tells them to, and they will *most likely not listen to you no matter how good your advice is, because the 458 is in control of her own mind and body and is unlikely to listen to what other tell her to do and will resist if she experiences a risk of being dominated and controlled, *especially if 5w4 for head and 4w5 for image.


Yeah I wouldn't say it's knowledge and wisdom that I chase, but I wouldn't give up on anything I was chasng so easily.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> My only comment is this:
> 
> @_LeaT_, you're missing the _entire _purpose of the Enneagram if you're using it to glorify your supposed tritype.


 @_Arienette_, @_Monsieur Dini_, @_Zemdrake_, @_Octavarium_

I am wondering what prompted you, @_kaleidoscope_, to write this post, and also what prompted the rest of you to thank it.

I'm pasting the OP here in the spoiler. The stuff that is negative (ie, not glorified) is in bold. The good, or "glorifying" stuff is in italics. Please let me know what prompted such a post or why you thanked it?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
I think this has been long due, but perhaps a necessary post for me to write. I have been thinking of my tritype a lot recently, both in terms of* anger, my need for uniqueness and also my desire to be withdrawn and keep things at arm’s length.* *The way the 458 tritype works is that there is a strange synergy between all for fixation points, but the synergy is more of a convergence when all motivations line up and point towards one direction but in all other ways the motivations of each fixation work against each other, creating a sense of being scattered, chaotic, lack of focus, a mission and a purpose in life*. 

*What is common for all fixation points is a sense of lack or that something is missing. 4 lacks an identity to call its own, 5 lacks knowledge and competence and 8 lacks fulfillment and satisfaction. I would say this sense of lacking or missing something is one of the defining features of my life but looking back, and I think the Fauvres summarize the life purpose of 458 perfectly – I desire that which is innately human. One might wonder what “innately human” means and why it is that the 458 tritype out of all tritypes is the most likely to desire this and again, one must look at the sense of lack which stems from all fixation points. *

*When studying the holy idea of 4 which is Holy Origin, we can see that 4 is driven by a need to belong and feel unity with the world at large but due to internal shame, does not feel one is worthy or desirable enough to do so. Similarly, the holy idea of 5, Holy Omniscience, is the desire to feel connected with the universe through knowledge. We desire to know all and by doing so, we have the power to do anything. However, just like 4s, there is a sense of being flawed and incomplete, this omniscience can never be reached or attained. Lastly, the holy idea of 8 is Holy Truth. Holy Truth is also a concept of unity, that all is one and one is all. It takes the idea of dualism and turns it into monism. Just like the 4, 8s feel that they are separated, it is them against the world and it is only by conquering the world that they can regain this sense of unity where all is one. *

*What separates the types is thus how they manage this sense of loss and separation. The logic of 4 is that if I cannot have it, I will go my own way and become how I want to be to prove myself worthy. In a way, it is thus fair to say that 4s reject their desires by emphasizing their difference. 5 on the other hand, does it in an entirely opposite manner and thinks that if one cannot have it, then one has not done enough to prove one’s worth. We need to learn more and become better and once we reach a specific state of equilibrium we will finally attain the true knowledge and wisdom which we seek. There is specific overlap with how 8 deals with their sense of loss with 4 and 5 – 8 will also do things its own way. If you’re not with me you’re against me and I will prove that I can manage on my own in order to show you my worth. If you do not want me I do not need you either. In this sense it is easy to see how both 4 and 8 are reactive types. However, just like 5, 8 will actively seek out what it truly desires instead of rejecting and ignore those wishes like the 4 does. *

*In the light of these fixation motivations, it is easy to see how 458 represents an inner feeling of ultimate loss and lack of belonging and more specifically so, that which is innately human. Innate humanity thus represents a desire for humanity itself. It is a craving to feel unity and belonging, because what unites all three fixation points is a feeling of not belonging. To 4, one is much too flawed to belong, a 5 is too stupid and incompetent to belong and 8 is too weak to belong. 
*
_When looking at my own life philosophies, it is interesting how they reflect the holy ideas of 4, 5 and 8. I have for a very long time believed in unity, that we are all a part of something greater, bigger and better than this (4). I also believe in free will (4, 5 and 8) and believe that if we can know every aspect of something (5 and 8), we will be able to predict the future (5), but knowing the future gives us an ability to choose and act against these outcomes (8) and decide of what we want and who we want to be (4). I also ultimately believe in monism over dualism, and I think that concepts such as Yin and Yang merely represent two sides of the same coin (8), and it is only by examining all sides and realize how they are essential to each other that we can achieve greater wisdom that permeates time (5). _

_So why is 458 being called the Scholar and not something else? I actually think the name of the tritype is part misleading because 458s aren’t necessarily scholars in the actual sense of the word. You will not always find a 458 in a dusty hallway studying old manuscripts of old and teach the wisdoms to other people although teaching wisdom is indeed an important aspect of 458 for reasons I will cover below. Instead, the word “scholar” refers to the 458’s search for eternal wisdom and knowledge about life and what it means to be alive and how the 458 will share this knowledge once such insight is attained. I was once called a sage by another member on Personality Café and what is interesting about the 458 is that while we may not always make a lot of fuss about ourselves depending on our core type, people are always willing to listen to what we say, perhaps because there is genuine truth and wisdom in our words because no person has struggled as much and spent as much time trying to understand the mysteries of life as a 458. When a 458 says something, we always do it with the intention of what we say is being useful. We do not say things for the sake of saying things because there is always meaning and intent in our words. _

*Out of all the tritypes I’ve studied, there is also a strange feeling of loss carried by the 458 which can be gleaned in their manners, the way they think and talk and behave around others. A perfect and fairly known example of a 458 is professor Snape from the Harry Potter franchise. Dark, intense and brooding Snape seems to constantly be thrown between different kinds of extremities. This is because of how the different fixations constantly oppose each other in the tritype. 4 desires emotional intensity which is contrary to the nature of 5 that prefers emotional coldness because the world is much too dangerous and being emotionally cold is one of the defense mechanisms of how the 5 withdraws and maintains a distance, but 8 desires power, domination and control which is contrary to both 4 and 5 that are withdrawn types and rather introspect than dealing with the world directly. The nature of 8 also amplifies the emotionality of 4 due to how the 8’s passion of Lust manifests itself. The 458 can thus at one point be completely overcome by her feelings and flair of drama from the 4 fixation one moment, and then become incredibly aloof, uncaring and emotionally cold like a 5 the other, and this coldness is emphasized if the 8 influence is strong. These mood swings might not be apparent to an outsider however, especially if the 4 fixation has a 5 wing as showing overt displays of emotion is not in the nature of the 458, with the exception probably being if a sexual 4 subtype and with a possible 3 wing or strong 3 influence as 4w3s are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves than other types. If 5 has a 4 wing, the 458 might even appear as a 4 but this might not be known to outsiders who do not know the 458. 
*
*The 458 is also a very withdrawn type and is perhaps the primary example of the lone wolf. Being double-withdrawn by having two withdrawn types in the tritype, it is probably hard to find an extroverted 458, although a strong social instinct can probably lessen the intensity and need to withdraw. If self-preservation or sexual, the 458 is probably likely to be extremely aloof, especially if core 4 or 5 just like Snape. If less healthy, the 458 can also be very grumpy, especially if the 8 influence is strong, and one might be reminded of such characters such as the Grinch or Mr. Scrooge who are probably both good examples of unhealthy 8s themselves. *

*Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence. If the 458 has a strong sexual instinct and is a core 5 or 8, it is also likely that the 458 can be incredibly competitive due to having two power types in the tritype. 
*
*Another peculiar feature of 458 which is more related to the combination of 4 and 8, especially if the 4 has a 5 wing, is that the 458 seems to appear as uninterested, dissatisfied, to be scowling or right-out bored, especially if 5 is strong and the 458 is in what can probably be best described as observation-mode.* _They can however be caught looking dreamy when they think no one will see them, and while the 458 tends to often have a very analytical and grounded approach to life, especially if the core 4 type is 4w5 or if core 5 or 8 with strong influence._ _This is because that while 458s inherently believe in that they are not worthy of their dreams going back to their feelings of lack, they deep down desire this unity with humanity and the cosmos no matter what and they might spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is they actually want or desire in life and what life truly means to them. _

_Despite their often projected tough exterior, especially if they are core 5s or 8s and are men, probably even more so if sexual or self-preservation first, 458s are extremely sensitive and emotional. They can be very cynical and maybe even right-out misanthropic but deep down they still want to believe in that there is genuine goodness in the world. _*If the 8 influence is strong, they might even over-emphasize their non-good aspects of themselves in combination with 4 of not being worthy: “I’m a bad person and I know it and it will not change because it is who I am”. The qualities of 8 become a part of the 4 image. *

_Fiercely loyal, the 458 while hard to befriend is a friend you have for life. One ought to be reminded of Snape’s undying love for Lily and how he was willing to do anything for her. This is part because once the 458 has found the representation of innate humanity, we will do everything in our might to chase it and have it back._* Especially if we lost it which we are bound to do. There is thus a tendency for the 458 to idealize and mythologize this aspect of innate humanity, especially if it represents another object or another person. Perhaps one can part trace this to the 8’s notion of innocence, but it is also most definitely coupled with the 4’s need for acceptance and the 5’s need to be at peace of mind. *_If one is just in possession of this innate humanity (does not mean that the 458 must perceive herself as human though), all problems will be solved and one will finally be at peace with oneself and the world and achieve ultimate happiness. _

*The 458 is a complex tritype and while there is commonality in the fixation motivations, their different drives and powers creates a person prone to extreme mood swings and is highly independent due to 4, 5 and 8 all being types that are unlikely to value human connection, especially if social last. While they may appear as gloomy and quirky and sometimes even right-out mean and destructive, not only to oneself but also towards others,*_the 458 is in possession of a specific type of wisdom in the pursuit to find innate humanity and has a strong desire to share these findings with others. Being incredibly stubborn, it is unlikely that the 458 will give up in the chase for knowledge and wisdom despite what logic tells them to, and they will most likely not listen to you no matter how good your advice is, because the 458 is in control of her own mind and body and is unlikely to listen to what other tell her to do and will resist if she experiences a risk of being dominated and controlled, especially if 5w4 for head and 4w5 for image.
______________________________________________________

_As you can see, like @_bearotter_ pointed out, a greater portion of the post could be construed as 'negative' (the bolded) while as the italicized could be construed as 'positive' or 'glorifying.' Personally I don't see the point in attributing negative or positive value, or GLORY, to such a post, when it covers such deep complexities of a tritype, in which @_LeaT_ made a clear, straight-forward attempt to communicate with other members of this tritype or share ideas. What motivated you, @_kaleidoscope_, to evaluate it that way? Do you think this is constructive for the forum and for the idea of sharing thoughts about enneagram? Did you discount half of the post?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Half of what you said if not more is about behavioral things (appears uninterested, aloof, bored, etc..) with nothing substantial relating it back to the theory. You briefly went over the Holy Ideas *to make it sound smart*, but you more often than not missed the entire point.


What, then, is the entire point?

And also, what makes you so sure she did this "to make it sound smart?" Do you assume that motivation for most people whose posts you read? What, about that particular paragraph, made it stand out as something that could potentially "make her sound smart" more than the rest of it?

Also, there is more than just the holy ideas that is covered here. I will paste some content that relates back to theory:



> What is common for all fixation points is a sense of lack or that something is missing. 4 lacks an identity to call its own, 5 lacks knowledge and competence and 8 lacks fulfillment and satisfaction. I would say this sense of lacking or missing something is one of the defining features of my life but looking back, and I think the Fauvres summarize the life purpose of 458 perfectly – I desire that which is innately human. One might wonder what “innately human” means and why it is that the 458 tritype out of all tritypes is the most likely to desire this and again, one must look at the sense of lack which stems from all fixation points.


Okay, here's your holy ideas:


> When studying the holy idea of 4 which is Holy Origin, we can see that 4 is driven by a need to belong and feel unity with the world at large but due to internal shame, does not feel one is worthy or desirable enough to do so. Similarly, the holy idea of 5, Holy Omniscience, is the desire to feel connected with the universe through knowledge. We desire to know all and by doing so, we have the power to do anything. However, just like 4s, there is a sense of being flawed and incomplete, this omniscience can never be reached or attained. Lastly, the holy idea of 8 is Holy Truth. Holy Truth is also a concept of unity, that all is one and one is all. It takes the idea of dualism and turns it into monism. Just like the 4, 8s feel that they are separated, it is them against the world and it is only by conquering the world that they can regain this sense of unity where all is one.


More theory:


> What separates the types is thus how they manage this sense of loss and separation. The logic of 4 is that if I cannot have it, I will go my own way and become how I want to be to prove myself worthy. In a way, it is thus fair to say that 4s reject their desires by emphasizing their difference. 5 on the other hand, does it in an entirely opposite manner and thinks that if one cannot have it, then one has not done enough to prove one’s worth. We need to learn more and become better and once we reach a specific state of equilibrium we will finally attain the true knowledge and wisdom which we seek. There is specific overlap with how 8 deals with their sense of loss with 4 and 5 – 8 will also do things its own way. If you’re not with me you’re against me and I will prove that I can manage on my own in order to show you my worth. If you do not want me I do not need you either. In this sense it is easy to see how both 4 and 8 are reactive types. However, just like 5, 8 will actively seek out what it truly desires instead of rejecting and ignore those wishes like the 4 does.
> 
> In the light of these fixation motivations, it is easy to see how 458 represents an inner feeling of ultimate loss and lack of belonging and more specifically so, that which is innately human. Innate humanity thus represents a desire for humanity itself. It is a craving to feel unity and belonging, because what unites all three fixation points is a feeling of not belonging. To 4, one is much too flawed to belong, a 5 is too stupid and incompetent to belong and 8 is too weak to belong.





> This is because of how the different fixations constantly oppose each other in the tritype. 4 desires emotional intensity which is contrary to the nature of 5 that prefers emotional coldness because the world is much too dangerous and being emotionally cold is one of the defense mechanisms of how the 5 withdraws and maintains a distance, but 8 desires power, domination and control which is contrary to both 4 and 5 that are withdrawn types and rather introspect than dealing with the world directly. The nature of 8 also amplifies the emotionality of 4 due to how the 8’s passion of Lust manifests itself. The 458 can thus at one point be completely overcome by her feelings and flair of drama from the 4 fixation one moment, and then become incredibly aloof, uncaring and emotionally cold like a 5 the other, and this coldness is emphasized if the 8 influence is strong. These mood swings might not be apparent to an outsider however, especially if the 4 fixation has a 5 wing as showing overt displays of emotion is not in the nature of the 458, with the exception probably being if a sexual 4 subtype and with a possible 3 wing or strong 3 influence as 4w3s are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves than other types. If 5 has a 4 wing, the 458 might even appear as a 4 but this might not be known to outsiders who do not know the 458.





> Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence. If the 458 has a strong sexual instinct and is a core 5 or 8, it is also likely that the 458 can be incredibly competitive due to having two power types in the tritype.
> 
> Another peculiar feature of 458 which is more related to the combination of 4 and 8, especially if the 4 has a 5 wing, is that the 458 seems to appear as uninterested, dissatisfied, to be scowling or right-out bored, especially if 5 is strong and the 458 is in what can probably be best described as observation-mode. They can however be caught looking dreamy when they think no one will see them, and while the 458 tends to often have a very analytical and grounded approach to life, especially if the core 4 type is 4w5 or if core 5 or 8 with strong influence. This is because that while 458s inherently believe in that they are not worthy of their dreams going back to their feelings of lack, they deep down desire this unity with humanity and the cosmos no matter what and they might spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is they actually want or desire in life and what life truly means to them.
> 
> ...


 @_kaleidoscope_, Can you kindly point out in these passages what is entirely unrelated to theory?
@_mushr00m_, @_Octavarium_, can you explain what you thanked about @_kaleidoscope_'s post, and why you thought @_LeaT_'s post was unrelated to theory? I am very curious.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> @_kaleidoscope_, Can you kindly point out in these passages what is entirely unrelated to theory?
> @_mushr00m_, @_Octavarium_, can you explain what you thanked about @_kaleidoscope_'s post, and why you thought @_LeaT_'s post was unrelated to theory? I am very curious.












_Seriously_? First of all, you sound like a kindergarten teacher. You're really starting to piss me off. No one has to explain *anything* to you, LEAST of all why they chose to thank a post. Who are you to demand an explanation? You dug up a months old thread, for what purpose exactly? Don't answer that, it's pretty obvious anyway. I'm sure OP told you she asked for a separation agreement? Because if she did, then surely you must know that I can't respond to you anyway. 

Mushr00m, Octavarium - you guys should ignore this, it's obviously been written with the intention of creating more drama. This is the last time I respond to you, Maybe. I gain absolutely nothing from our discussions anyway, except having to skim read through giant blocks of text that are written with neither insight nor originality.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Actually, @_kaleidoscope_ - I didn't know she had a separation agreement or if I knew that in the past I forgot. I haven't even been here for months.

I dug up the thread because I noticed it and wanted to comment about the tritype. Then I saw your comment and couldn't believe my eyes. I wasn't looking to "create drama" - in fact, I just saw a perfectly legitimate thread being ruined by drama and a personal attack on the OP for no reason and I decided to say something. I am calling drama where I see it, and questioning why it is happening and why people support it. If you've got a separation agreement though, then I don't mean to breach the rules - that was not my intention.

And now, you've answered this post with another personal attack on me, telling me that my posts have neither insight nor originality. Well I see that you can't answer the question here anyway, so what else could you do but resort to another personal attack just like you did with the OP?

Anyhow I'd be thrilled if you never answered my posts again. This is the first time since I've returned that I've even quoted you - the other times, you quoted me and started telling me in bold and italics how wrong I was about everything, even in instances where I was discussing and quoting legitimate theory (at which point you blatantly discounted Naranjo saying that he was wrong too) and then when I asked you for your opinions you could not "disprove" or show me why I was wrong and why I deserved such intense criticism and attacks. So if I am able to post freely without you "answering" my posts, that is great. I'm happy to not quote you and I haven't been, but this just really stood out. I saw a perfectly legit thread being ruined by a remark and devolving into drama, so I wanted to know if there was more to it, and why people were supporting this.


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## Kelvin (May 30, 2012)

Rather than trying to criticize the intention of the OP for writing this post. Perhaps we should focus on the content of this post and criticize what she has said so far?

I mean, does it matter why a person created this thread? Or any other thread at all for that matter? (Unless they're in immediate threat and needs help)

So what if they're trying to glorify their tri-type? So what if they're trying to criticize themselves? Or gather sympathy in some cases.

If they're spreading information that's incorrect, they'd be wrong either way. Regardless of their intentions. And if they're wrong about their interpretation of their tri-type, then they're "just wrong". 

If I had made a post trying to boast my own type, will the post be incorrect *because* I tried to boast my type? No. It'd be incorrect because I've added misguided information in an attempt to exaggerate the good qualities my type has. 

Also, rather than assuming and reading between the lines, accusing the OP of trying to give glorify her tri-type, why can't we just point out *thoroughly* where we think she's wrong? Wouldn't that lead to be a better discussion, or perhaps a better rebuttal? (I'm not commenting on whether I think the accusation is right or not, but I find it rather irrelevant)

For example: If you think she gave a biased interpretation of her own tri-type. Can you point out exactly where they are? Can you then point out where she went wrong? In what ways do you think it's wrong? Do you have evidence or a logical support for this? Perhaps, tell us what you think is right? What about the positive aspect of the tri-type? Do you think it's accurate? To what extent is this disproportionate representation of the positive aspects and negative aspects mislead? Are there any truth in what she says? Etc. 

I think most people would appreciate reading a post saying "here's the bias _____________ and here's what I think, instead, __________ is true". Let's not speculate (if you think she has a biased interpretation) about her intentions; about WHY she did it. Because asking a "why-natured" question in a more content-based analysis thread such as this will lead us nowhere. Or saying things like "you're just trying to _______!" for that matter. 

This is just me but... if anything, I think seeing how a person interprets their own tri-type is a good way to observe their psychological structure / inner mental frame / how they perceive the world and thus giving us more insights into how the human psyche work. I'd never advice against anyone to not create a thread, simply because it's interesting data. 

So! Rather than giving personal attacks or inferring, let's criticize* in detail* about what *she said*. Not what she's trying to do. It'd make a more informative and contributory discussion. =D


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

That last post brings to mind the idea that if someone is accusing other people of having an ulterior motive behind their posts (such as "glorifying their type") , there might be a reason in their own psychology pointing to why they are doing that. Sometimes the things we accuse others of doing can be what we are doing ourselves, a potential within ourselves that we fear, or something similar. I would not claim that I've been free of this; nobody can escape it... projection is perfectly human. If you show me a person who is truly innocent and has no ulterior motives whatsoever and knows exactly who they are and never projects, I will get down on my knees and cry in awe. That being said, when someone goes so far as to mock or attack other people with accusations that I don't think are factually based, I will call it like I see it, or at least question them to find out where their ideas are coming from. I will also question the other people who support this to find out where they are coming from. After all it is always possible that I have missed something, being imperfect myself.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> That last post brings to mind the idea that if someone is accusing other people of having an ulterior motive behind their posts (such as "glorifying their type") , there might be a reason in their own psychology pointing to why they are doing that. Sometimes the things we accuse others of doing can be what we are doing ourselves, a potential within ourselves that we fear, or something similar. I would not claim that I've been free of this; nobody can escape it... projection is perfectly human. If you show me a person who is truly innocent and has no ulterior motives whatsoever and knows exactly who they are and never projects, I will get down on my knees and cry in awe. That being said, when someone goes so far as to mock or attack other people with accusations that I don't think are factually based, I will call it like I see it, or at least question them to find out where their ideas are coming from. I will also question the other people who support this to find out where they are coming from.


This post is dripping with passive aggressiveness. You know fully well that a separation has taken place, and you saying you forgot is just as hilarious as you claiming to be objective about this. Don't even bother saying otherwise, your intentions couldn't be any clearer.

Nevertheless, I am so touched that you find my projection human. Truly.












> I dug up the thread because I noticed it and wanted to comment about the tritype. Then I saw your comment and couldn't believe my eyes. I wasn't looking to "create drama" - in fact, I just saw a perfectly legitimate thread being ruined by drama and a personal attack on the OP for no reason and I decided to say something. I am calling drama where I see it, and questioning why it is happening and why people support it. If you've got a separation agreement though, then I don't mean to breach the rules - that was not my intention.


You ARE creating drama - by digging up a thread that happened months ago *to comment on the drama that happened in it *:dry: What's the point of it? Do you think the thread is going to magically be restored? If I were you and was _so appalled_ about the drama going on, I wouldn't perpetuate it further. I would comment on the information, just the way you claim things should've happened. I would try to restore the thread as opposed to actually making things worse by mentioning everyone who thanked me and asking them why. Seriously, I cannot get over that. No one owes you any explanation whatsoever. 



> Anyhow I'd be thrilled if you never answered my posts again. This is the first time since I've returned that I've even quoted you - the other times, you quoted me and started telling me in bold and italics how wrong I was about everything, even in instances where I was discussing and quoting legitimate theory (at which point you blatantly discounted Naranjo saying that he was wrong too) and then when I asked you for your opinions you could not "disprove" or show me why I was wrong and why I deserved such intense criticism and attacks.


Good job distorting the facts. You went into the 4 subforum waving your Naranjo bible, and quoting huge blocks of texts from him to make your point, all the while understanding it all wrong. Since I actually care about misinformation, I took the time to correct you and explain to you painstakingly what you misunderstood and why. You had to take it personally, however I couldn't care less about that. Also, there's a difference between saying an author is wrong, and saying he exaggerated. 

Now that we got that out of the way, you can go back to thinking you're being SUCH a righteous and honorable person for reviving old drama. I'm amused.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_kaleidoscope_, I thought you were not going to answer my posts anymore? Are we really going to continue going back and forth here?

Anyway, "passive aggressive" is the wrong word to use in this scenario. I was assertive, if not aggressive, in addressing exactly what I thought you were doing. The last post was not "passive aggressive" either because it was clearly a response to the thread which I already DIRECTLY and STRAIGHT FORWARDLY addressed, so I did not need to reiterate the ASSERTIVE and DIRECT points that were already made. 

But now I will be very direct about what I think:

1. You accused the OP of 'glorifying her supposed type' - perhaps deep down, this is what you're doing with your own 'supposed' type, or you fear that it is. This might or might not be the case and I won't presume, but it strikes me as a possibility. Perhaps it is you who glorifies a supposed type while the OP was simply looking to discuss a type. If you thought otherwise, you might have pointed out specific content which you found offensive rather than attributing motives to her which are more likely your own motives.
2. You accused me of digging up a thread to cause drama. Perhaps it is you who does things with the INTENTION of causing drama. If you were not causing drama, I would not have had any reason to comment in the first place. On top of that, I don't come to this forum to go through threads and dig up drama, but if it is staring me in the face I might as well say what I see, especially when I see that a thread has been ruined by it. It may indeed be you who is looking for threads to cause drama, and this is why I have been accused of such intentions which are not my own.
3. If you are mocking others and attributing intentions to them, that is drama. I find it HILARIOUS that you then accuse me of causing drama. I have seen you do this more than once: you cause drama, someone else calls you out on it, and then you accuse them of causing drama. What is even funnier is that so many people then back away, perhaps because they don't want to be accused of causing drama? It's clearly an effective technique for having your own opinion voiced and silencing others, but it doesn't work on me. I am not the only person who has stood up to you, but some of the others have 'separation agreements' which is very convenient, isn't it? Because then you can keep doing what you're doing and nobody can stop you. In my humble opinion, it will catch up to you eventually, because I've lived long enough to see that this is usually what happens.
4. The content on the 4 forum speaks for itself. 

Perhaps that was assertive and direct enough for your tastes.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_kaleidoscope_ - it is not drama in and of itself that appalls me, especially if addressing an issue directly and voicing my opinion is called "drama." It is the fact that you get support for CRUELTY and MOCKING and BULLYING, and hardly anybody stands up to you, and then you continue to do it freely. I have no fear of being accused of 'causing drama' because my intention is only to point out what I see as bullying. I am not someone who watches a person get away with unwarranted cruelty, because I fear that she will accuse me of "drama." I've overlooked one too many of your posts and I'd rather be banned or branded "drama queen" than sit back and watch this without saying anything. Call me what you will, say what you will; I am not afraid or harmed by your words.

Anyway, if it's so "unforgivable" to create "drama", why did you do it in the first place?
Why is it unforgivable for me to "create drama," but it's okay for you?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Anyway, "passive aggressive" is the wrong word to use in this scenario. I was assertive, if not aggressive, in addressing exactly what I thought you were doing. This is not the first time I've seen you make this mistake. The last post was not "passive aggressive" either because it was clearly a response to the thread which I already DIRECTLY and STRAIGHT FORWARDLY addressed, so I did not need to reiterate the ASSERTIVE and DIRECT points that were already made. My intention with the last post was to make a general comment about psychology which Kelvin had commented on in a GENERAL way, and I QUOTED you in saying that she "glorified her post" so obviously, that is DIRECT not PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE.


Right. You're not passive aggressive _at all_. You're direct, and assertive. Feel better?










When someone leaves a forum dramatically a month ago or so, then comes back determined to get back at the person in a petty way and indirectly through either Enneagram discussions or through digging up old threads to revive drama that died out a long time ago, they cannot expect to be seen as assertive and direct. You may lie to yourself by saying so, but others won't buy it.

Not only that, but you kept up the victim play pretty well. Let me point it out to you:



> This is the first time since I've returned that I've even quoted you - the other times, *you quoted me and started telling me in bold and italics how wrong I was about everything*,* even in instances where I was discussing and quoting legitimate theory (at which point you blatantly discounted Naranjo saying that he was wrong too) and then when I asked you for your opinions you could not "disprove" or show me why I was wrong and why I deserved such intense criticism and attacks*.


Classic case of victimization. Not only are you clearly portraying me as the Big Bag Kalei for telling you that you were wrong (in bold AND italics, HOW SHOCKING :shocked, but you also managed to completely distort what happened in the thread. When I point that out, you conveniently ignore it. How interesting.



> Then I saw that nobody really commented on the contents of the thread because the FIRST comment on the thread was DRAMA which probably turned other people off to actually paying attention to the content because they don't want to subject themselves to attacks by you.


And you certainly are fixing the situation, aren't you?  

Let me break it down for you - The Ways In Which You Are Creating Drama:

1. Bumping a thread out of nowhere in order to comment on drama that *already happened and died down*. How did you really expect me to react? Stop bullshitting. You knew that by doing so, you would be making things worse. If you can't see it, then you're even less self-aware than I thought you were.

2. Mentioning people who had nothing to do with it, to ask them why they thanked me. :laughing: You're literally recreating the entire scenario here.



> Therefore, I assertively and directly addressed not only you, but also those who were THANKING you for causing the thread to proceed in such a manner.


I swear, we get it. You're direct and assertive!



> But now I will be very direct about what I think:


I thought you already were?



> Perhaps that was assertive and direct enough for your tastes.


I _do _recall seeing you mention that somewhere. 



> If you were not causing drama, I would not have had any reason to comment in the first place. It may indeed be you who is looking for threads to cause drama, and this is why I have been accused of such intentions which are not my own.


So me causing drama ages ago gives you the right to waltz in there and arrogantly comment on what happened? You refuse to see things for what they are - that *you *are causing drama* right now.* FACT: This conversation would not be happening had you not decided to barge in here. Nothing you say will change that.

Other facts that you refuse to acknowledge about yourself: You are extremely passive aggressive (given that you clearly are holding a grudge against me after the witch hunt thread) & you play the victim card more often than you like to admit. Just look at how many times you talked about how direct you were. Saying it doesn't make it any true, dear.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

@Maybe
No I will not be dragged into a petty argument attempted to defend your friend. Not to mention its quite rude. I don't believe I have interacted with you on here before and this is not a way I wish to begin interacting. I have my own reasons for thanking Kalei's post which im not telling you because it has nothing to do with you. Goodbye.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Why is it unforgivable for me to create drama, *but it's okay for you*?


Where exactly did I say anything like that?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Where exactly did I say anything like that?





> You ARE creating drama - by digging up a thread that happened months ago *to comment on the drama that happened in it :dry: What's the point of it? Do you think the thread is going to magically be restored? If I were you and was so appalled about the drama going on, I wouldn't perpetuate it further. I would comment on the information, just the way you claim things should've happened. I would try to restore the thread as opposed to actually making things worse by mentioning everyone who thanked me and asking them why. Seriously, I cannot get over that. No one owes you any explanation whatsoever.*


I'm not appalled by drama, I'm appalled by cruelty. Using the word 'drama' here seems like a tactic so that if anyone disagrees with you, you can accuse them of a dirty word and make them look bad. Bring it on because I don't care.

I don't even know what drama IS, tbh. If direct confrontation is drama, and indirect confrontation is passive aggressiveness, then how do you suggest I should address something that I think is cruelty and bullying? Would you prefer if I just let it go while you continue doing exactly as you please?

Also, this:



> Now that we got that out of the way, you can go back to thinking you're being SUCH a righteous and honorable person for reviving old drama. I'm amused.



Being "righteous" and "honorable" are not a concern to me. 

"Drama" is not a concern to me.

I have nothing more to say. If we're not involving the mods in another 'separation agreement' I will agree to ignore your posts if you ignore mine, but if I disagree with *theory* that you happen to bring up and I argue about the theory that I want to mention, I would appreciate not being referred to as "passive aggressive." I would only do it in such a manner because I would prefer not arguing with you as a person, but I still want to be able to mention the theory in the way I view it. It's up to you - you call the shots on this one. Shall we continue going back and forth or just end this, and allow me to take this back to the matter addressed in the OP?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> If we're not involving the mods in another 'separation agreement' I will agree to ignore your posts if you ignore mine, but if I disagree with *theory* that you happen to bring up and I argue about the theory that I want to mention, I would appreciate not being referred to as "passive aggressive." I would only do it in such a manner because I would prefer not arguing with you as a person, but I still want to be able to mention the theory in the way I view it. It's up to you - you call the shots on this one.


Either way is fine by me. Warning: I use bold and italics with everyone, don't take it personally :tongue:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Either way is fine by me. Warning: I use bold and italics with everyone, don't take it personally :tongue:


Lol okay. Well, I'm fine with anything. I actually enjoy arguing theory with you, tbh. Even on the 4 forum, when we disagreed and it got fiery, I enjoyed it because I do like some of your ideas and I enjoy the challenge of someone fiery.

I pretty much operate in two ways - either I shut my mouth entirely or I call it like I see it. If I'm polite or nice like I am now, it's genuine. So, if both of us can see that for what it is, and see that we butt heads about each other's conduct in this thread in a bad way but we can continue to argue theory elsewhere and try not to make it personal, I'm cool with that. If you'd rather I don't talk to you or answer your posts at all, I respect that. I actually feel fine now because I said what was on my mind so I'm over it. Let me know what you want me to do. Feel free to comment on the content of my posts if you want, I won't be contacting any mods. =p


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Few points:-

1. This thread is a year or so old. Back then, the dynamics between the two biatches people are whining about..were conflictual. Op and Kalei went back and forth on multiple threads. So, singling one out and turning it a case of 'bullying' is biased and not objective in the least. It's actually totally ridiculous, and I've seen the same shit happen on multiple threads. It gets old, fast. 

Besides, over the internet, anyone who strongly disagrees with someone or their friend or their internet fiance gets called a 'bully'. So, let's take a moment and laugh at that. 

Whether, @_kaleidoscope_ is a bully or @_Maybe_ is or @_LeaT_ (none of you have anything on me, because I am the BEST 'bully' this forum has ever seen and will ever see..heck I got my own complaint threads and shit!roud: In fact, I need a herald for my bullying skills. And, I accept Paypal. Take a BOW, dammit!)is ..:laughing: is all a fuckin joke in my eyes and to anyone with half a brain. And, I talk facts. Let's not even open that can of worms. I have seen multiple people stand up and talk back to Kalei. In fact, I'll be honest Kay, and this doesn't diminish your assertiveness. But, in some cases I have found that she has toned herself down or altered her approach instead of pressing the gear harder ( as a 'bully' or a "bully" would) for image reasons, among personal ones that I am not aware of and won't get into. I am sure she won't mind me saying this. 

2. @_Maybe_, as for asking why specific people thanked posts, really, that's none of your business. That's none of anyone's business. I've seen a bunch of people, mostly comical internet whiteknights butthurt over one reason or another, try and prod someone to "clarify" and "Explain" why did they something out of "curiosity" or because they're just trying "to understand". Sure. That they have their own problems/agendas is always ..and I do mean always patently clear. I have seen it happen several times. 


I've even had such people approach me in private over something I said to their buddies. And, it's like... do I look like I answer to your ass? :laughing: The only person for whom it makes to ask for an explanation is the person on the receiving end of whatever behaviour that bothers them. If you (and general you not you specifically) want to ask, ask away. No skin off my back. Just keep in mind that no one, besides the person involved, is entitled to anything. Nada. Zilch. 


3. Resurrecting the thread to raise these points, regardless of who says what to justify their choices, is clearly stirring a shit storm. Since everyone and their grandmother is a petty bitch on the internet, I won't call it petty or some other hoity toity shit like it's something I've never seen before or would 'never' have done myself. It's just what it is, starting or fueling,- very *personal*. And, it's obvious what it's all about. It's been obvious from the second it got bumped.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Boss_ @_kaleidoscope_

I won't deny what it was about. I also won't deny that now that I got it off my chest I feel better. I would have said something in another context but I just didn't have a thought in "words" that jumped out at me. I have said my bit now so I am relaxed.

And, LOL to you being the best bully on the forum, @_Boss_. =,)

About resurrecting an old thread from the dead - I seriously did not even look at the date; I just looked at the content and wanted to comment because I'm having some confusion about my tritype and head fix and wanted to see how much I would relate. It just so happened I noticed the comment. I wasn't even looking for drama or thinking about kalei when I read it but I had taken my sleeping pills (multiple ones) so I just went at it impulsively. I have no regrets though because I prefer being honest anyhow, and sleeping pills or not, I would have voiced my thoughts one way or another, but if I had not been half asleep I might have noticed the date on top and thought "hmm that's kind of silly to bring this up now." However, I didn't.

I don't regret asking the other people why they thanked it, but obviously they don't have to reply if they don't want. People have asked me things like this and if I don't want to answer, I don't.

But thank you for posting your thoughts. =)


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Maybe said:


> @_Boss_ @_kaleidoscope_
> 
> I won't deny what it was about. I also won't deny that now that I got it off my chest I feel better. I would have said something in another context but I just didn't have a thought in "words" that jumped out at me. I have said my bit now so I am relaxed.
> 
> ...





@_Maybe_
Where's my Bully of the Millennium award, girl?? roud:


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_Maybe_
> Where's my Bully of the Millennium award, girl?? roud:


We should have those awards alongside MOTM. =,) BOTM & MOTM.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@_Maybe_

Next time you feel like getting something off your chest, I'd rather you PM me rather than make the issue you have with me public. This is what I mean by being direct: it was obviously personal, you could've just talked to me about it. It was really _that _simple.

@_Boss_, I don't mind at all, this is actually very true.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> @_Maybe_
> 
> Next time you feel like getting something off your chest, I'd rather you PM me rather than make the issue you have with me public. This is what I mean by being direct: it was obviously personal, you could've just talked to me about it. It was really _that _simple.


That is fair enough, and I will do exactly that. Same goes to you - PM me with anything you want. Making it public was an impulsive reaction to what I saw rather than a rational choice, and I think this request is beyond reasonable and also best for the forum.

That being said, we can still argue like dogs about theory on the forum, right? O=)


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> @_Maybe_
> 
> I do not believe that OP was 'mocked' or bullied in the way it's being repeatedly presented, particularly given her own conduct on the forums, which has been blatantly harassing in the past and has had her held accountable with the admin. Sure, no one is perfect. *But, when someone can play it rough with others, they should be able to take what they dish out, without having their 'allies' barge in at every instance of perceived 'bullying'.*


Exactly. So what happens, then, when all of the allies jump in to gang up on me when I have something to say? I have friends too, but you don't see my friends running to defend me. Why? Because I insist on defending my damn self.



> And, it was an opportunity to highlight that I appreciate your willingness to take responsibility, and you don't owe an explanation to anyone.


Thank you =) And this is why you are awesome. 



> Hope that's cleared up.


You never had anything to clear. I knew where you were coming from.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> I see your point about sincerity. That's exactly why I stated clearly that your sincerity in owning up to your part in the misunderstanding demonstrated integrity, and that you owe NO one an explanation. As you said, sincerity speaks for itself. At no point have I doubted you when very maturely accepted you could have handled it differently. As I've said before, I respect that. Most people here would have gone on the defensive, that you owned up to things is respectable.
> 
> As for personal drama, I will not get into details that go beyond the witch hunting thread debacle for obvious reasons. It was certainly a reference to past incidents, public or private. And surely, it wasn't meant as an accusation, because everyone here who is either close to another or has had tiffs with another member, has "personal drama".
> 
> P.S. I said 'everyone' who saw the thread, not everyone in general. Also, it was better for a third party to say "interpersonal history" and leave it to people directly involved to clarify or add things as they see fit. It's difficult to play guessing games about how much someone would want to address past matters. It's best left to the people involved.


Yes exactly. =) We get each other.

I didn't want to address past matters but once my sincerity and integrity is repeatedly coming in to question I figured I might as well since the entirety of the past issue is public material anyhow. I know that you, personally, did not question my integrity or sincerity and I appreciate that. You called me on the same b.s. that I owned up to. =,)


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Maybe said:


> Exactly. So what happens, then, when all of the allies jump in to gang up on me when I have something to say? I have friends too,* but you don't see my friends running to defend me.* Why? Because I insist on defending my damn self.


I am not sure if you're referring to this thread or the Witch Hunting one. That thread was closed by the time I saw the drama that had ensued. Nope, actually, I do very clearly remember seeing that Flat was also with you on that thread and stood by you/defended you in his posts, when things went south. That's fair. If you're referring to this thread, iirc the only people who addressed your comments were myself, Mushy and Doll. Mushy, as you know, did not address you as an "ally" of Kaleido. She was offended due to the nature of your remarks personally addressed to her. So, let's count her out of the 'alliance'. @_Doll_ openly admitted that she is biased because of her friendship, though her points were not hostile. You were not ganged up on, by a 'group' of 'allies', anywhere in this thread.

And girl, you know me. I called out Kalei's bullshit, as well. And, you know, I have no _loyalties_ to anyone here, even if I care for them. I will call a spade a spade. That's just how I operate. In the interest of honest disclosure, I will openly say that exaggerated calls of 'bullying' have become a pet peeve given some negative experiences I've had here (and to an extent irl) which ended up with some people getting bans and others avoiding the Enneagram forums like the plague because their months long self-serving smear campaign antagonized a perfectly productive environment and many in it. 

So, I don't see what defense or ganging up you're referring to on this thread. I did not run to kaleido's defense, when I clearly called her out on being abrasive and not critically addressing Leat's post. We've talked about it, and you know I came in with no claims of 'moral' superiority or any loyalty/attachment to anyone. 

While I am friends with both parties (and both may annoy the shit out of me! at some points), as you said, I say what I believe. No ill will; no covert alliances; no holds barred. 






> You never had anything to clear. I knew where you were coming from. It's just, enough people asked about me backpaddling and brought up personal drama that I thought, f' it, I'm just going to go there. Because what, am I going to PM all the people who jumped in here, just to have more people jump in? I am not someone who brings "personal drama" into a thread, at all, so I needed to clarify that the personal drama all related to not only something public, but specifically ONE public incident.



Alright 

The backpeddling part warranted a bit of a response.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Boss said:


> I am not sure if you're referring to this thread or the Witch Hunting one. That thread was closed by the time I saw the drama that had ensued. If you're referring to this thread, the only people who addressed your comments were myself, Mushy and Doll. Mushy, as you know, did not address you as an "ally" of Kaleido. She was offended due to the nature of your remarks. So, let's count her out of the 'alliance'. Doll openly admitted that she is biased because of her friendship.
> 
> And girl, you know me. I called out Kalei's bullshit, as well. And, you know, I have no loyalties to anyone here. In the interest of honest disclosure, I will openly say that exaggerated calls of 'bullying' have become a pet peeve given some negative experiences I've had here which ended up with some people getting bans and others avoiding the Enneagram forums like the plague because their self-serving smear campaign antagonized a perfectly productive environment and many in it.
> 
> ...


I completely respect this about you. And I was never upset with you. In the case of "Mushy" (that is so cute) I was blatantly wrong in how that was handled which is why I apologized very sincerely.

If other people have jumped in, well, I'll leave it alone for now. =p



> Alright
> 
> The backpeddling part warranted a bit of a response.


Yeah, there was really no way to deal with that one besides being blunt, lol. My attempt to be respectful and leave that shit out of it ended up just going in circles. So there you have it. ; )


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Exactly. So what happens, then, when all of the allies jump in to gang up on me when I have something to say? I have friends too, but you don't see my friends running to defend me. Why? Because I insist on defending my damn self.


First of all, there are NO allies in this. I am insulted that you think I called out friends for help, not so much personally insulted as much as insulted on their behalf. I do *not *befriend people who follow what I say blindly. They have their own minds, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be close to anyone who nods along constantly to whatever I say. They have eyes, they can read and form their own opinions regardless of what I say. I would *WANT *them to call me out on my BS. So please don't assume things you couldn't possibly know about. Your friends are here lurking and thanking you anyway, so I don't think you're as alone as you like to believe. And FYI, @_Shabby_ is someone I know IRL. As irked as I am by her commenting, I respect the fact that she spoke up and voiced her opinion.

Second of all, can we just drop this? Seriously. The reason I called you out on the Witch Hunt thread was because of portraying yourself as a victim. You went as far as copy paste the entire conversation you had with Grau for people to reread and see. It was a bit too much for me, and I had to say something. I'm sure you would understand, seeing as to how you value honesty and sincerity greatly. You want to call it bullying? Fine by me. What I meant by PM me, is that if you had an issue with me (and clearly you did) for you to address me directly, over PM since like you say, it was impossible to discuss over PerC, thread closed and all. 

Is there anything else you would like me to address? Because if there is, let's just get it over with right now.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> First of all, there are NO allies in this. I am insulted that you think I called out friends for help, not so much personally insulted as much as insulted on their behalf. I do *not *befriend people who follow what I say blindly. They have their own minds, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be close to anyone who nods along constantly to whatever I say. They have eyes, they can read and form their own opinions regardless of what I say. I would *WANT *them to call me out on my BS. So please don't assume things you couldn't possibly know about. Your friends are here lurking and thanking you anyway, so I don't think you're as alone as you like to believe. And FYI, @_Shabby_ is someone I know IRL. As irked as I am by her commenting, I respect the fact that she spoke up and voiced her opinion.
> 
> Second of all, can we just drop this? Seriously. The reason I called you out on the Witch Hunt thread was because of portraying yourself as a victim. You went as far as copy paste the entire conversation you had with Grau for people to reread and see. It was a bit too much for me, and I had to say something. I'm sure you would understand, seeing as to how you value honesty and sincerity greatly. You want to call it bullying? Fine by me. What I meant by PM me, is that if you had an issue with me (and clearly you did) for you to address me directly, over PM since like you say, it was impossible to discuss over PerC, thread closed and all.


I should have PM'ed you about that. I have said so many times.

I have *no* more issues. I had to address this here due to repeated questioning regarding my own sincerity and integrity. I wanted to avoid it but I don't want to misrepresent myself and what I meant by "personal drama" because it was not that personal. 

Yes, I hope we can drop it. I would love that, actually.

Also, can I mention, that I love the spirit here, and whole-heartedly agree:


> Is there anything else you would like me to address? Because if there is, let's just get it over with right now.


Same goes for you, if you have anything else, but I really don't.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I have one more thing, actually.
@Maybe, this is the second time you have indirectly called me an ally and assumed I don't have my own opinion (but like before, you refuse to address me _directly_). Is this because I disagreed with you, or because of my obvious friendship with @kaleidoscope? Do I need to remind you that I consider you a friend, too?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Doll_ I wasn't referring to you indirectly or specifically. Also, just because someone supports another friend doesnt mean she can't think for herself. And I do consider you a friend. I hope you do as well. I never would have talked to you in the first place if I didn't think you could think for yourself.

Also I'm not sure which "indirect references" you're referring to?


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Nevermind.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> @_Doll_ I wasn't referring to you indirectly or specifically. Also, just because someone supports another friend doesnt mean she can't think for herself. And I do consider you a friend. I hope you do as well. I never would have talked to you in the first place if I didn't think you could think for yourself.
> 
> Also I'm not sure which "indirect references" you're referring to?


Here:



Maybe said:


> Exactly. So what happens, then, when all of the allies jump in to gang up on me when I have something to say? I have friends too, but you don't see my friends running to defend me. Why? Because I insist on defending my damn self.


The way this is phrased, it makes it seem like you're implying that:

*1.* I can't defend myself.

*2.* I have allies. 

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can't have meant anything else.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> ..


*1. I can't defend myself.*
This is not what I said. You and I already resolved it before a bunch of other people jumped in. I thought you did a fine job of defending yourself and the subsequent stuff wasn't necessary for your defense, but obviously everyone is entitled to post.

*2. I have allies. *
Well, do you?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> *1. I can't defend myself.*
> This is not what I said. You and I already resolved it before a bunch of other people jumped in. I thought you did a fine job of defending yourself and the subsequent stuff wasn't necessary for your defense, but obviously everyone is entitled to post.
> 
> *2. I have allies. *
> Well, do you?


Instead of beating around the bush, why don't you just explain what you meant with that post?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> Instead of beating around the bush, why don't you just explain what you meant with that post?


Perhaps I will, if you explain why you wrote your post in the first place, which you still haven't done.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Perhaps I will, if you explain why you wrote your post in the first place, which you still haven't done.


..What? What post?


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> ..What? What post?


The very original post that you wrote on this thread?

Also, you could answer me directly instead of beating around the bush: do you have allies?


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Perhaps I will, if you explain why you wrote your post in the first place, which you still haven't done.


That, right there, is why you're an indirect person. You posted something which *clearly *refers to me and my friends, yet when people point it out like @Doll and I, you pull the old "oh, I wasn't talking about you" card. Well, you're running out of people here. If it's not me, or Boss, or Doll, or mushr00m you're referring to, and only a limited amount of people are involved in this incident, who could you possibly be referring to?

This is what irks me, more than anything. You _could _just say it like it is. You very obviously implied that _you _didn't need to defend yourself, and that your friends didn't jump in. Not only that, but you claim that 'allies' jumped at you the moment you pointed out my "cruelty" and "bullying". Should be clear by those statements who you're referring to, yet you refuse to say it outright.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Lalala double post.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

These are the people who commented, who were not originally involved:
summer solstice
Doll
Boss
Grau
bearotter
Shabby

Did I leave anyone out?

On the Witch hunt thread, a lot of people also jumped in to an argument against me, although I can't remember all of them, but I know summer solstice was on that list. I was referring not to one specific person, but more of the collective attention that was drawn to this thread from people who weren't involved, as well as people jumping in on the witch hunt thread after you attacked my character (in a way that had nothing to do with mistypes, but pertained to my personal nature, which is actually against forum rules).

Also, the original post had a lot of thanks, and I haven't gotten any explanation for that, so I would still leave the possibility for allies open.

It would require inferior intuition to manage NOT to put those pieces together and think you have people on your side. 

But you know, props to you because people really love you and that is awesome. I really didn't mean much by it at all, and now I am being picked apart, and STILL, you haven't answered any of the questions addressed to you.

So I've been straight. Do you want to be straight about any of the questions that were addressed to you? Or do you want to let me be the bigger person who answered every question while you skirted around all of yours with more accusations against me?


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Maybe said:


> These are the people who commented, who were not originally involved:
> summer solstice
> Doll
> Boss
> ...


Maybe, even though this has absolutely nothing to do with me, I think it's time to give up and let go on the matter. No need to beat a dead horse into the ground, just bury it. The conflict in this thread was rehashed, mashed with another conflict on the Witch Hunt thread, and is severely derailing from the purpose of the OP of this thread. This whole conversation could have been had in a Skype chat group or via PMs. I'd advise you to think twice before calling someone out of violating forum rules when you haven't stopped to think about what you're doing with this thread right here.

Also, why does it matter why someone thanked a post where you were attacked? Unless you have a separation agreement with the users mentioned for a reason similar to that, it shouldn't. Why does it matter that they attacked your character? And what are you looking to get out of this conversation other than a contest to see who's the most blunt? It's like trying to butt your head against solid concrete to break it to pieces.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Pavane said:


> Maybe, even though this has absolutely nothing to do with me, I think it's time to give up and let go on the matter. No need to beat a dead horse into the ground, just bury it. The conflict in this thread was rehashed, mashed with another conflict on the Witch Hunt thread, and is severely derailing from the purpose of the OP of this thread. This whole conversation could have been had in a Skype chat group or via PMs. I'd advise you to think twice before calling someone out of violating forum rules when you haven't stopped to think about what you're doing with this thread right here.
> 
> Also, why does it matter why someone thanked a post where you were attacked? Unless you have a separation agreement with the users mentioned for a reason similar to that, it shouldn't. Why does it matter that they attacked your character? And what are you looking to get out of this conversation other than a contest to see who's the most blunt? It's like trying to butt your head against solid concrete to break it to pieces.


Hold on, why are you saying this to me? Other people kept on continuing the thread and I responded - I'm not the one 'rehashing' this over and over. As far as I was concerned, this ended a while ago, but then the assaults on my character, calling me "indirect" and so forth continued. I have no problem with you overall but I don't appreciate "continuing this thread" being pinned on me. I worked it out with the original people and now days later, I'm still getting tags and mentions. Please look back at the whole progression before you pin this on me.



> And what are you looking to get out of this conversation other than a contest to see who's the most blunt? It's like trying to butt your head against solid concrete to break it to pieces.


That is exactly how I feel when I continue to receive these tags and mentions. In fact, I wish the thread would be locked. I've done everything I could to *work this out* and move on and clear the air, and that is the only reason I am answering any more. It is not to win a contest.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Maybe said:


> Hold on, why are you saying this to me? Other people kept on continuing the thread and I responded - I'm not the one 'rehashing' this over and over. As far as I was concerned, this ended a while ago, but then the assaults on my character, calling me "indirect" and so forth continued. I asked someone why they did something, and then my character was assaulted left and right. I have no problem with you overall but I don't appreciate "continuing this thread" being pinned on me.


The reason I say this to you is that you perpetuated it by asking that they answer to you as if they owe you something. Also, you happened to initiate this discussion. Hence, rehashing of forum drama that had been relatively dead for some time. I'll admit that they didn't have to respond to you either, but everything covered in my previous sentence is why it was directed at you. Even if you're not the only party involved in this, there should be a degree of accountability for re-opening the floor for discussion. 

If someone is assaulting your character it might not necessarily be an issue that you yourself have, but those pinning negative accusations on you. Just don't take things to heart so much. For every person attacking your character, there are people who appreciate you. And if you call people like that friends, it's time to find new ones.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@Pavane
Fair enough. I am going to take your advice and refrain from responding in full. Feel free to PM me.. lol.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Seriously? this thread is still going?
@Maybe, I can only speak for myself, but I'm not anyone's ally and I'm not taking sides. I thanked the post not out of any loyalty to @kaleidoscope, but because at the time it did seem to me like an attention seeking thread. I'm not prepared to get into an argument about whether it was or it wasn't because this is an old thread and I really don't care. I don't have anything personal against @LeaT and I'm not ganging up on anyone. From my point of view this thread is just pointless bickering so I won't be replying again.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I am actually agreeing wholeheartedly with the "Seriously, this thread is still going?" sentiment. (Which doesn't mean I don't take responsibility for participating, so I will change that now...)

In the interest of wrapping things up:
If anyone has anything else to say, go ahead and say it. Rip me to shreds, I don't mind. If you've always wanted to do it, do it here. ; ) I will stop posting on this thread now and let everyone else have the last word if you so choose. If you want to rip up my posts one word at a time, I'm flattered. If you have questions you wish me to answer, you can PM me. If you just want to unleash, have at it.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Maybe said:


> These are the people who commented, who were not originally involved:
> summer solstice
> Doll
> Boss
> ...


So after 10 pages of discussion, you're STILL asking me why I wrote my original post? After all these people coming in and saying the same thing to you, you're still demanding an explanation of me and the people who thanked me, knowing FULLY know, that 1) I cannot give you an explanation because I'm separated with LeaT and 2) no one, *NO ONE*, owes you ANY explanation?

How many times do you have to have something repeated to you in order for it to sink in? You know what? I refuse to believe you're that stupid. I think you're simply just looking for a way to switch my criticism to you (not being direct) back at me, and so you latched onto the whole "you didn't answer my initial question anyway!" in order to escape actually answering. Because if that isn't the case, then you have the memory of a goldfish, or you lied when you said to Boss that you totally understood why you reviving this thread demanding explanations was wrong of you. So which is it? 

Let me repeat your options:

1. You 'forgot' _again _that I cannot, will not, respond to your initial question, and that you have no right whatsoever to ask for explanations as to why the initial drama happened because it's insulting and none of your business, as well as totally unnecessary.

2. You were lying when you said "oh, I know it was personal. I shouldn't have gone about it this way. Sorry, Boss."

3. You're latching onto this again to avoid my question about your ally statement.

I like to believe it's number 3. Because I _did _answer your question about allies, a few posts back. I very clearly stated I had none, yet you chose to insult me and my friends again by outright asking me "Do you have allies? Be direct and answer" - which was a total fail, given that I already did :laughing:

So next time you want to deflect onto me, I suggest you go about it in a better way. You keep calling yourself direct, but I just explained to you all the ways in which you are not. You're the most indirect person I know, and that's why you downright infuriate me by going around in circles. Now you'll claim that flatters you, I'm sure. Whatever works for you. I'm just baffled at the discrepancy between how you see yourself (I am DIRECT and ASSERTIVE ok??) and how you actually are. 

I'm not going to bother addressing this anymore. I've said what I had to say. I'm sure your response to me will involve either backtracking or projection (or both!) anyway, not that you'll actually admit it. The amounts of projection you have done in this post alone is HUGE. (Are you gonna be straight up so we can avoid going into how I'm not?") Anyone with half a brain would agree.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)




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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

^ What an ally.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> ^ What an ally.


Exemplar of _verbal_ irony.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> Exemplar of _verbal_ irony.


Oh, I wasn't talking about you at all. 

:kitteh:


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## SocioApathetic (May 20, 2012)

@LeaT, I found your description of the 4-5-8 interesting. I imagine it must have taken time to muster your thoughts. The comparison of 4-5-8 to Severus Snape was especially amusing but by no means less intriguing. 

Thank you for sharing your analysis.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

kaleidoscope said:


> So after 10 pages of discussion, you're STILL asking me why I wrote my original post? After all these people coming in and saying the same thing to you, you're still demanding an explanation of me and the people who thanked m
> 
> snip


I was under the impression that this shit has been addressed. and resolved. But no, it was stirred again...and back to square one LOL. 

*Here's a recap:- *

It was settled that I didn't defend you. Mushr00m addressed ONLY those comments that had to with underhandedly questioning her integrity via the indirect claim that she was complicit in 'bullying' because she thanked your post. Same with Octavarium now. Doll made no hostile post; she did not claim anyone here is a pious little bitch. She clearly said that everyone here has friends/loyalties and drama, and the holier than thou tone needs to be canned. So, she's not the 'ally' in this thread though she openly claimed bias on account of her friendship with you. 

Summer solstice ..is he a gang unto himself? he made just one post in response to a post that was written in a demeaning manner and was replete with exaggerated calls of 'bullying'.

Maybe, Shabby and Kelvin called you out, two of them called you a bully, but I don't see anyone claiming that YOUR character was attacked. There was no bullying from your end, especially given you and OP had ongoing issues at the time and got into spats. I don't see any claims of victimization, seeing as I called you out on being abrasive and not critically evaluating the OP multiple times. That's called being objective. That's an example of not blatantly siding with someone and excusing their horseshit, just because they're a friend. 


There was no ganging up anywhere on this thread; *neither you nor Maybe was ganged up on*. Get a grip, people. Bearotter and Grau made general comments about internet drama, immaturity and what is the best way to handle a debate without making it personal. They made no 'attacks' on Maybe's character or anyone else's. To portray their posts as among people who came on here as 'allies' is ..I don't have the words for it lol. Let's just say it's nonsense. 

It was already established and agreed upon, by every single person involved, that questioning people who thanked the posts was uncalled for, not to mention ludicrous. Mush took offense at that, and with good reason. Maybe accepted that it was not the best way to handle things; and she also accepted that personal issues/resentment affected her decision in resurrecting the thread and calling you a bully etc. She said this multiple times. I commended her sincerity for the same. 

So, I just don't get why this stuff about 'allies' (After accepting that it was wrong to question post thanking and after apologizing to these people; they're still being called 'allies' smh lol) is being raised again? Wasn't that shit answered; weren't apologies and clarifications offered already? Hasn't this been said to death? Discussed to death? It's like...really now? XD

Anyone with a functioning pair of eyes and half a damn brain can see that no one was ganged up on; no group of allies came on here to defend you. I could sit here and lump Shabby and Kelvin into Maybe's allies, and I could easily say that everyone who thanked all of their posts was their ally; many of Maybe's friends were here Thanking posts, and one defended her against 'character assassination' ROFL over being called a kindergarten teacher-like person for being patronizing. 


But, thank your stars, for I know better. I am sure as hell not going to mention them and ask for explanations. Why? They don't owe me jackshit. This applies to everyone here. Maybe doesn't owe anyone an explanation, past the point where she chose to apologize of her own volition. The same claims of 'allies' that have been made with regards to you can be made in reference to Maybe. That's just how it goes. So, let's just cut the crap once and for all. Everyone here's wading through the same shit.

_____________

Now for the description, one thing that's off is the exaggerated explosiveness from double reactive in the 458 tritype. The reactive-ness of 4 has to do withdrawing. So, I disagree with that aspect. If we were discussing the 486 tritype, I'd get the explosive part because of 8 and 6 influence--the reactive-ness of both types is of a more expansive nature, challenging and so forth.


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## lilimarleen (Oct 17, 2013)

Nice post :happy: This is also my tritype


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