# Trying to figure out if hubby is ISTJ or INTJ....



## Cesspool (Aug 8, 2014)

Why don't you have him take a test online?


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

eb44345 said:


> You're right about that environment stressing him out. It's really important to an ISTJ. My wife is ISFJ, so she also has that dominant Si, so I'm really familiar with how it is. I try to make an effort to keep the place clean because I know it's important to her. Someone's dominant function is extremely important to them. People are energized by their dominant function and drained by their inferior (4th) function. For ISTJ and ISFJ, that's Si. A dirty, mess, chaotic physical environment is going to depress/drain/stress them, just like a mundane, uncreative, boring job would depress me.


Clutter overwhelms me to the point, not where it affects me emotionally, but to where I have no clue what to do with it so I just tune it out. It's just not worth it to me to expend the energy. (It IS worth it to me to help my husband out, but clutter-ignoring is my default.) If I could get a big box and stuff everything into it, I would be the happiest person ever. Alternately, I could see myself coming up with a system to manage clutter in our house, but I don't think I'd be very good at implementing it. So, yeah, point being, I feel quite guilty quite often knowing I'm a big part of his problem.



> Since I learned about these functions and personality types it's really helped me understand the people around me, understand how they tick and what they need/value. My wife's family always seemed so stable/normal. Then, I learned that they are all ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ. My family has always been a hot mess. My dad: ENFJ, mom INFP, sister ESTP, brother INTP, me INTJ. So a bunch of rarer types all thrown together. Rare to find an ESTP girl too. Three insensitive INTP, INTJ, ESTP kids with a really sensitive INFP mom. Yeah...nightmare. But now I get why all these problems exist, and I'm kind of a counselor for them that can explain the other person's point of view. The key thing really is to understand that most people do not think like you do.


I love figuring out how the people around me work. People are so, so fascinating. I am really trying to understand myself so I have a good basis for figuring others out, LOL. I took your personality quiz and, unsurprisingly, came up as INFP. I always get INFP. My problem is I usually know where questions are going and because of that, I can't see clearly what's really me and what's the me I think I am. Does that make sense?

Does your test narrow down questions? It seemed like the last page was trying to distinguish between Ne dom and Fi dom. If so, that is really cool!



> But I guess all these MBTI stuff is like a complex puzzle to figure out. It's not simple, and that's what I like about it. I dislike things that are easy. If I'm playing a game and it's too easy, then I quit it and try to make it better.


I love your perspective.

I find MBTI fascinating and it makes me want to dig into the head of every person I meet. To see beyond the surface, what they show to the world, to find out who they really are.


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## emptyboxcarz (Feb 26, 2015)

Yeah, he's not too into this personality type thing.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Lysana said:


> He's much more concerned about the amount of clutter in the house than I am, and this may seem stereotypical, BUT he has said it's because *it affects his peace of mind*. Clutter *stresses him out*.


This is very ISJ.



> but do be wary of the "duty fulfiller" stereotype, because ultimately, it's their use of Si >> Ne that identifies an ISTJ, not necessarily any tendencies towards certain behaviors.


Yes, 100%.

The inferior functions of these two types really make it easy to identify them. Ne inferior is WAY different from Se inferior.

Listen to this ISFJ (also Ne inferior just like ISTJ) talk about her anxiety issues. This is typical Ne inferior:
Actually I re-watched it and it seems more applicable to ISFJs rather than Ne inferiors in general. Will find another.


edit:

More Ne inferior (catastrophizing*) this girl is likely ISTJ:






*thinking of everything that can possibly go wrong and stressing about it before it's even something worth worrying about. Makes huge mountains out of mole hills. Very big into worrying about irrelevant things. These Ne inferior types are the _wrong _people to go to if something goes wrong XD


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

emptyboxcarz said:


> Yeah, he's not too into this personality type thing.


Honestly, if you're having this kind of trouble figuring out ISTJ vs. INTJ, the test isn't likely to make a difference. My husband tests emphatically as INTJ.

But before someone says "ooh, if he's not into personality types, he must be ISTJ," let me say I would see this as quite possibly Te not seeing a point for it. Talk about how fascinating you find it and how it's helped you understand people better and you might pique his interest. Or you might not. 

See if you can get him talking about why he likes certain things, or why he does things a certain way, or why particular topics or activities interest him. You may be able to pick up some clues, like my previous example where I was able to work out that my husband enjoys the people he loves by making memories with them, which was consistent with the Si preference we'd already deduced for him. But the _why_ is much more important than the _what_, and overall patterns should emerge--don't base your result on a single indicator.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Lysana said:


> But before someone says "ooh, if he's not into personality types, he must be ISTJ," let me say I would see this as quite possibly Te not seeing a point for it. Talk about how fascinating you find it and how it's helped you understand people better and you might pique his interest. Or you might not.


It's definitely nothing definitive if he doesn't like it, but Si/Te is definitely way more likely to see it as a waste of time due to it not having any or much evidence to back it up. It's mostly conjecture, which is why we're (Ni) drawn to it. And the fact that the conjecture holds up in reality (Te) is why we stay.

The Si/Te brain is completely backwards from this. They look for the facts and evidence _first_, and use those things to form a rational conclusion. (in 50 years they might become interested in this stuff)

Ni/Te forms the most probable conclusion and then finds evidence to back it up. (in 50 years this place will be a ghost town as we'll have moved on to the next fringe topic)

This is one of the many reasons you find Si types drawn to history and historical subjects. Because all the information is already known. There's no conjecture or guess work.

If Ni was drawn to history of any kind, it would be things like forensic anthropology. Where you study ancient cultures and try to figure out from their environment and artifacts found how they lived their lives, what their religion(s) might have been like, deciphering their language . . . . Complete guess work. We love it.

If it's something you can Google and find all the answers to, Si/Ne is going to be drawn to learning about it. And I'm not just talking about ISTJs--see: INTPs, INFPs, ...

If it's something that you have to figure out on your own, Ni/Se is going to be drawn to it. See especially: ESFPs, ISTPs...

It's like Ni/Se are the trailblazers coming up with new information for Si/Ne to become experts in.


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

emberfly said:


> More Ne inferior (catastrophizing*) this girl is likely ISTJ:
> 
> *thinking of everything that can possibly go wrong and stressing about it before it's even something worth worrying about. Makes huge mountains out of mole hills. Very big into worrying about irrelevant things. These Ne inferior types are the _wrong _people to go to if something goes wrong XD


Fascinating. Why do you see Te > Fi in her? I see a lot of myself in her mannerism and bearing. If I made a video I think I'd look and sound a lot like her. The disjointed manner of speaking, idea, idea, idea, working her way into her main topic. I actually agree with the Te assessment, but I'm interested in your reasoning.

BTW, if I went by this, I would definitely say my husband is not ISTJ. He comes across as much more grounded than this girl, and has for as long as I've known him. He tends towards depression and anger rather than anxiety. This may be something of a male/female difference.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Lysana said:


> Fascinating. Why do you see Te > Fi in her?


Watch her other videos. The Te/Fi is very obvious in her.



> He tends towards depression and anger rather than anxiety. *This may be something of a male/female difference.*


Very astute observation!


* *











I also see a bit of Ne inferior in this video as well when she talks about her fears. Man she fears the most minor stuff. And if you notice, all her fears have to do with things she doesn't know for sure about--all future stuff.


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

emberfly said:


> It's definitely nothing definitive if he doesn't like it, but Si/Te is definitely way more likely to see it as a waste of time due to it not having any or much evidence to back it up. It's mostly conjecture, which is why we're (Ni) drawn to it. And the fact that the conjecture holds up in reality (Te) is why we stay.


Huh. Interesting. What you've described as Si/Te (and I agree with what you're saying) seems extremely short-sighted to me (that way of looking at the world, not your view of it). The evidence seems to be all around me, as well as within myself. Even though I can't figure myself out, I know it's because I haven't quite gotten there yet. I can tell there are patterns. I just can't tell what they are yet. Plus I see the patterns all around me, especially in my awesome husband who lets me dig into his brain.  I tend to think "I just haven't figured this out yet," rather than, "There's no established evidence so it must be wrong."

My husband sees the merit and accepts the theory, but just doesn't see the point in discussing it endlessly. He'll humor me, though, and does find it fleetingly interesting. But the theory hasn't gripped him like it has me.



> The Si/Te brain is completely backwards from this. They look for the facts and evidence _first_, and use those things to form a rational conclusion. (in 50 years they might become interested in this stuff)
> 
> Ni/Te forms the most probable conclusion and then finds evidence to back it up. (in 50 years this place will be a ghost town as we'll have moved on to the next fringe topic)


Hmmm. So, would Ti+Si tend to form _theories_ (rather than conclusions, which are more firm) and look for evidence? Or is this a different way of saying what you've said about Ni/Te?



> This is one of the many reasons you find Si types drawn to history and historical subjects. Because all the information is already known. There's no conjecture or guess work.
> 
> If Ni was drawn to history of any kind, it would be things like forensic anthropology. Where you study ancient cultures and try to figure out from their environment and artifacts found how they lived their lives, what their religion(s) might have been like, deciphering their language . . . . Complete guess work. We love it.


Stuff without guesswork just seems kind of dead to me. There has to be something to question or analyze or speculate about, otherwise it's boring. I'm not a fan of research, although, that said, I've spent a year delving into type theory. This is why I've always preferred reading fantasy to reading reality-based fiction, although I can enjoy almost any story if it engages my imagination. So, this is what it comes down to, for me: if something engages my imagination, I'm interested in it. If it doesn't, it's boring. I'm fairly flexible about finding ways to make something engage my imagination, though, if it's clearly something important. Just involves reframing my view of the situation somehow.



> If it's something you can Google and find all the answers to, Si/Ne is going to be drawn to learning about it. And I'm not just talking about ISTJs--see: INTPs, INFPs, ...
> 
> If it's something that you have to figure out on your own, Ni/Se is going to be drawn to it. See especially: ESFPs, ISTPs...
> 
> It's like Ni/Se are the trailblazers coming up with new information for Si/Ne to become experts in.


I prefer a mix, but I'm pretty sure I ultimately fall on the Si/Ne axis. I'm not a trailblazer. I'm not looking to take anyone anywhere except maybe on a fun ride (good story). I just want to find a different way to get places, maybe, but that's for my own entertainment rather than something that is meant to benefit others.

DANG, sorry. I just went through your nice general post and related everything to me. Well, the good news is, this is the internet and everyone can ignore me if they want. :laughing:

Anyway, thank you for sharing your perspective. I don't get to have conversations with INTJs in real life, either because I don't know any or because they just kind of scare me, so what you've shared was really enlightening for me.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Lysana said:


> I prefer a mix, but I'm pretty sure I ultimately fall on the Si/Ne axis. I'm not a trailblazer. I'm not looking to take anyone anywhere except maybe on a fun ride (good story). I just want to find a different way to get places, maybe, but that's for my own entertainment rather than something that is meant to benefit others.


see the below:




emberfly said:


> It's like Ni/Se are the trailblazers coming up with new information for Si/Ne to become experts in.


I want to clarify what I meant by this because I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to say that Si/Ne isn't creative. 

See this video about Si/Ne creativity:

* *













Si: I see this and it reminds me of ... hey .. Ne.. come help me out here
Ne: OH WOW THAT LOOKS LIKE 1) ___, 2) ___, 3) ____, 4) ____ . . . 

Ne is pulling from stored memory and thinking of how this object that isn't x could serve the purposes of x and could be used in place of x. It's like a cerebral creativity. Not very trailblazery per se. More like a creative thinker (brainstorming).

Your trail blazer would be the first person to do something differently.

Your Se/Ni person realizes, "Hey, what if I increase the discharge coming from these cathode ray tubes? Let's try it!"

And then this Se/Ni person accidentally discovers X Rays and revolutionizes the medical industry.

It's very much like..
Ni: I have a good feeling about this. We should do this.
Se: WAY AHEAD OF YOU!

*new information is formed*.


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Watch her other videos. The Te/Fi is very obvious in her.
> 
> 
> Very astute observation!
> ...


Wow, this tells me I am not so good at spotting the functions as they come to the surface in people. I can't see past her, uhm, fakeyness, to the Te. I sound judgmental, but that's not what I mean. I think I can't see the Te because I'm viewing her as a whole instead of working to isolate certain aspects of her. And I suspect her "fakeyness" is because she's doing a video, and she is likely quite different when interacting with people in her life.

Yes, this is a very clear example of how mannerisms and behaviors do not necessarily equal cognitive functions. Especially in a video where a person is basically being an actor, potentially a caricature of themselves.

Or, I suppose you could be wrong. Haha. But I think it's much more likely that I don't know what I'm seeing.

I did definitely see that inferior Ne pop up. It's funny that she can talk about going into outer space without a care but when she talks about living her life, she has all these worries. And, of course, it's because going into outer space isn't real to her, but she knows whatever happens, that uncertain future is going to happen.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Lysana said:


> Wow, this tells me I am not so good at spotting the functions as they come to the surface in people. I can't see past her, uhm, fakeyness, to the Te. I sound judgmental, but that's not what I mean. I think I can't see the Te because I'm viewing her as a whole instead of working to isolate certain aspects of her. And I suspect her "fakeyness" is because she's doing a video, and she is likely quite different when interacting with people in her life.
> 
> Yes, this is a very clear example of how mannerisms and behaviors do not necessarily equal cognitive functions. Especially in a video where a person is basically being an actor, potentially a caricature of themselves.


Hardcore Fi :laughing:






"me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me"
-Catrific 2014






Unapologetic, real, this is who I am--you can take it or leave it.

edit:

Damn I totally didn't even realize we were going off-topic. 

However Cat is probably an ISTJ so it's still on-topic I think?

(@op is your husband like Cat? LOL)


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## Lysana (May 30, 2014)

emberfly said:


> "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me"
> -Catrific 2014


I like her a little better here. I love her message. I relate to her a lot. I definitely do the mask thing. It's to protect myself. But I find it interesting she wasn't aware of it. I deliberately built my masks. It's causing me trouble now as I work to figure out who I am underneath them, but the layers I built over the years were intentionally designed for the express purpose of protecting who I am on the inside.

I relate to her, but the shallow vibe she gives off grates. I feel all unicorny saying that, but I don't mean to be.



> Unapologetic, real, this is who I am--you can take it or leave it.


Haha, I am probably the least unapologetic person in existence, ever.



> edit:
> 
> Damn I totally didn't even realize we were going off-topic.
> 
> However Cat is probably an ISTJ so it's still on-topic I think?


I manage to derail every thread I post in. I feel a little guilty commenting sometimes because I know if I keep coming back, somewhere it'll derail. It's because around here, it seems like everything that's said raises another question to dig into. This is something I love about this place! I could explore ideas all day, and it's so much more fun when someone explores them with you. Thanks for riding the derailment train with me.



> (@op is your husband like Cat? LOL)


:laughing:

I like that other guy she was with better.


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## eb44345 (Mar 9, 2014)

@Lysana

Yeah that quiz goes by the functions. It's not based on letters, which is just junk. It tries to get at which rational function the person uses, then it goes for the irrational function. Then, it tries to get to the ordering of the functions. So, yeah if you got INFP, then the last page was seeing if you're Fi dominant or Ne dominant. The quiz is actually quite complex. There are so many paths that someone could follow. Overall, it has 585 questions, but one person will answer between 45 to 90 questions, depending on how they answer things. Different people get different questions. Some questions are very general while others are very specific to specific personality types. Right now, I'm in the process of creating flowchart diagrams in Visio to illustrate how it all works logically so that others can follow what it does. It took months to make because it takes a while to come up with questions, and I would get burned out after thinking of new questions for too long.

I tried for a long time to get people to just learn the functions and how it all works, but most people just aren't interested in learning. They want it spoon-fed to them, or they want a quick quiz. I found just about every quiz on the Internet to be unsatisfactory, so I figured I would try to make something I liked. It's not perfect. Sometimes people get the wrong result. Typically, that's because they don't know themselves well. They answer the questions based on how they would "like to be" instead of how they really are.

I know one lady who is a friend of my wife's. I know her well enough to know that she's ISFP. She took the quiz and got INTJ, which is laughable. I mean she drives a car that is decorated pink, is really into photography, painting, animals, etc...all the ISFP stereotypes of being an artist. She was also a bridezilla at her wedding. Picture an INTJ being a bridezilla...not going to happen. But it does make sense that she could get that result because ISFP and INTJ share the same functions.

Likely what happened is that the quiz went after the rational function for her. She answered questions indicating Te. Oftentimes people do that. They think that their inferior function, in this case Te for the ISFP (Also INFP) is their strength. Then, it addressed Ni vs Si, and she has Ni for a 3rd function, so it went to an NTJ type. Then, there were questions of ENTJ vs INTJ and she identified with being the introverted type because ISFP would be closer to INTJ than ENTJ. So, that's how it happened. I've tried to put in safeguards against things like that, but if a person just lives in flat out denial then they are always going to get the wrong result every time.

On a side note, I've noticed that INFPs usually know themselves a lot better than ISFPs. INFPs do a lot of introspection, while ISFPs typically want to express their Fi through their Se, which is why they decorate everything around them.


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