# Men in the post #metoo age, did you make amends? Should we?



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Ock said:


> Sorry, of course I meant women, and now its edited.
> 
> Of course I've seen men give women unwanted advances. I didn't grow up in suburbia. I grew up in a small city that was neither overly suburban, nor overly ghetto. Violent crime, for example, isn't what you'd call bad for an American city. But anyways, I didn't exactly know what you meant about being around "trashy people". I thought you might be referring to my family or something, so I wanted to clarify that no, in that way I'm not from a "trashy" background.


No, I wasn't referring to you or any of your family. I'm not sure why you'd make that assumption when I thought I made it pretty clear that I think men who force themselves onto women are trashy people and where I grew up pretty much no man did. Sure there were guys who bragged about their sexual prowess or who they hooked up with, but the gals pretty much did the same, simply with less bragging involved.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Scoobyscoob said:


> What you think is common knowledge may be specific to where you live. I don't assume someone from a different background is going to know everything I know or have very similar views as me, and you really shouldn't either. If you've ever met people from different parts of the world or even different parts of the country, you should know that first hand. That's why communication and dialog are good and assuming things about someone is not. 🙂


Yeah, thanks for the lecture. I just never put a lot of extra thought into it before. Jeez.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Ock said:


> Yeah, thanks for the lecture. I just never put a lot of extra thought into it before. Jeez.


Hahah, well sorry, I didn't mean to lecture you. I just find that citing common knowledge when it comes to attitudes and perceptions on certain subjects is fairly specific where a person grew up/lives. If you've ever been to say, DC, you'll meet people from all over the country and in some cases all over the world. Finding common ground isn't hard with most people, but as always, the devil's in the details.


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## Glittris (May 15, 2020)

Dunno what metoo is, but let me say this, the one and only person I would make any amends to, is to my partner..., if I done anything wrong in the first place. ^_-


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, we live in a man's world and what you're describing sounds like immature high school males who either grow up or don't, then amount to nothing. Ehhh, being gentlemanly has nothing to do with age as it does with, let's be honest here, innate personality and upbringing. Most of the time it's just banter that would be inoffensive to men but be offensive to women. It's what Donald Trump would call "locker room talk" when I would call anyone who continues that talk into adulthood, 'immature pre-incel boys pretending to be men talk'. Sure, no problem and if you have a boyfriend who is surprised that women are harassed more than men, then be sure to not lose your cool and explain your experiences with harassment. Becoming senselessly angry solves nothing and will likely just leave you feeling isolated and alone.
> 
> So as far as you're concerned, is he out of you life?
> 
> ...


It’s interesting to me how snarky your response is now compared to before Ock pointed out what is not a surprise and how I agreed to it. I do hope your emotions from your exchange aren’t making their way here where they’re not welcome. It would be a waste of a nice discussion.

Well, either way: behaviour that you described as “immature high school males” are more common than you think. As in a whole lot of them don’t grow out of that phase (or when/if they do, it’s well into adulthood), hence why I was surprised by you being surprised that women are harassed more in the first place—and more often blamed for it, too. Not that it’s a competition, anyway. Just a fact. It can happen even in places that have higher standards of living. Sometimes terrible people are just terrible people. And no, my boyfriend was not surprised by that—in fact, he knows the same and have often been protective of me, especially after having actually witnessed me get pursued by some guy who lived in my building who thought I was by myself, after I had already said no multiple times. I won’t elaborate on that—point is he had more than enough reasons to believe me. About my past experiences, he noticed my wariness when we first started seeing each other and questioned it, so I shared. He understood immediately, and that was it. Nothing that would or should have resulted to a needless argument or anger. And yes, the man who assaulted me has been out of my life since the day he did it—I pretty much removed myself from that whole side of the family. I just happened to find out/overhear about what happened to him.

Prank, machination, whatever you want to call the disrespect and childish thing they did to you. I’m sympathising because the whole ordeal sounds like an easy trip to the world of trust issues. Most sane people don’t go that far. And people holding stupid views and opinions is commonplace, no surprises there. It’d be nice not to be on the receiving end of their stupidity though lol. Anyway, I hope you have recovered just fine.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Miharu said:


> It’s interesting to me how snarky your response is now compared to before Ock pointed out what is not a surprise and how I agreed to it. I do hope your emotions from your exchange aren’t making their way here where they’re not welcome. It would be a waste of a nice discussion.
> 
> Well, either way: behaviour that you described as “immature high school males” are more common than you think. As in a whole lot of them don’t grow out of that phase (or when/if they do, it’s well into adulthood), hence why I was surprised by you being surprised that women are harassed more in the first place—and more often blamed for it, too. Not that it’s a competition, anyway. Just a fact. It can happen even in places that have higher standards of living. Sometimes terrible people are just terrible people. And no, my boyfriend was not surprised by that—in fact, he knows the same and have often been protective of me, especially after having actually witnessed me get pursued by some guy who lived in my building who thought I was by myself, after I had already said no multiple times. I won’t elaborate on that—point is he had more than enough reasons to believe me. About my past experiences, he noticed my wariness when we first started seeing each other and questioned it, so I shared. He understood immediately, and that was it. Nothing that would or should have resulted to a needless argument or anger. And yes, the man who assaulted me has been out of my life since the day he did it—I pretty much removed myself from that whole side of the family. I just happened to find out/overhear about what happened to him.


I suppose I should've said it was surprising to me to learn that women are harassed much more often than men, when I first found out. It obviously doesn't surprise me now. Also, whatever snarkiness you interpreted was an incorrect perception. Having to deal with absurdity may make it seem like I'm trying to be cheeky, but aside from my first reply to you with all the emotes, I wasn't joking or being snarky. I'd also appreciate it if you didn't assume my attitude on a serious topic. If I'm trying to be funny I'll make that very clear, even if you don't think I'm all that funny. 😉



> Prank, machination, whatever you want to call the disrespect and childish thing they did to you. I’m sympathising because the whole ordeal sounds like an easy trip to the world of trust issues. Most sane people don’t go that far. And people holding stupid views and opinions is commonplace, no surprises there. It’d be nice not to be on the receiving end of their stupidity though lol. Anyway, I hope you have recovered just fine.


Well, I don't see pranks as being malicious or potentially ruining peoples' lives. Schemes involving numerous people can and do. Yeah, childish I suppose. ENTPs when they decide they want to be scheme-y. lol Yes, I actually agree with everything you're saying. It's just that weird things happen in DC and that's the part I'm trying to make clear to you. 😄 I like to visit, especially when something is going on there but I honestly can't stay there too long or else I start to lose grip of reality and what's fiction or conspiracy, hahahah. Also, thank you Miharu, I have mostly recovered from the incident and I should be pretty safe to assume my wife won't take up a life of IRL trolling anymore. I don't think our marriage can handle it. 😄


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## Eu_citzen (Jan 18, 2018)

I believe most of my own interpretations are pretty in line with the whole "It depends".
Some people, you'd never want to see again, because their digression was so bad.
Others would be nice if they apologized. And a third group is too minor to even bother.

That said, I have nothing to make amends for. That I know off. 
When I grew up, you'd (as in, the peers would) beat someone's rear if they behaved inappropriately towards a lady. lol

It also amuses me to read Sensational's post about how some people's hurt feelings baffle her.
Pretty much the same here. I'm probably less sensitive than most.
I've been inappropriately touched (by females) and I simply took it as a compliment, once the bafflement settled.
Just goes to show the differences in perspectives.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Eu_citzen said:


> I've been inappropriately touched (by females) and I simply took it as a compliment, once the bafflement settled.


Yeah, I was harassed by boys a lot in school despite me not being gay. So anyways, I was once walking down the hallway and someone goosed my ass. I turned around expecting to see a dude whom I was potentially gonna beat the crap out of, but instead saw a girl. All that really did seeing a girl was diffuse me from throwing a punch, but I was still rather offended by it. It didn't feel good because I could detect that she had ill intentions and actually intended to make me feel bad. I turned forward, kept walking, and she did it a 2nd time. That time I just waited for her to continue walking in front of me so she couldn't do it again. She was a decent looking girl, but the way she did that was very off-putting.


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## ricericebaby (Aug 18, 2017)

Miharu said:


> Well, I’ve grown to be extra careful of people. Was just pretty unlucky growing up.


It's not a matter of luck. This happens to 4 out of 5 women, and it starts early. It is the common experience of most of my female friends, regardless of social class, background, or ethnicity. I can't say all only because some have simply never talked about it with me. I have yet to hear any female friend say "it's never happened to me" when the subject has come up. 

Every week, it's something new. A man watched and followed me to and from a campsite bathroom this past Sunday. A man openly stared at me for 5-6 minutes straight at a cafe last night, and probably would have followed me outside if it hadn't meant leaving his laptop and other equipment behind unattended. Sometimes I get stalked so aggressively in stores that I have to go out of my way to ditch pursuers; I get catcalled on walks; men I've just met try to connive ways to get into my personal space and touch, grope, or sniff me. Most of that has been an ongoing thing since I was a small child. I was about 10 years old the first time someone tried to kidnap me, around the same age as my cousin was when someone tried to kidnap her for the first time. About a year later, someone flashed me outside my house. A 60 year old man openly propositioned me for sex at a flea market when I was a teenager, and my boss had to intervene to stop a guy who was getting inappropriately physical with me at my first job. Later, multiple people intervened to stop a different guy who had started following me to work at that same job. 

That's barely half of it, and far from the worst. I have to actively stop and remember incidents I've experienced because there are so many that I can't keep track of them, and many of my friends have had it so very much worse than I have - some have survived multiple kidnappings, rapes, and assaults. I have never lived in a bad neighborhood, but I go on walks with a trench knife openly displayed on my hip that I am fully prepared to use, watching for cars making multiple passes or slowing down. I am armed at all times when I go out. I used to be friendly and open with everyone, but now I rarely smile at people in public places because I'm not interested in being a target. I am an expert at losing stalkers and tailers in grocery stores. Besides watching my own back, I also try to stay within view of women and children who are alone in public spaces if I notice a man watching them or following them. When my husband comes up and "spontaneously" puts his arm around me or kisses me when we are in public after we've been shopping separately, he is telling me that I was being followed by someone and didn't catch on. Again, I don't live in a bad neighborhood, or even a high crime town. 

There's a reason fathers, grandfathers, brothers, SOs, and other men who care about us go out of their way to teach us to be careful. 

It's not a matter of luck, it's a matter of being female.


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## ricericebaby (Aug 18, 2017)

Whippit said:


> I considered putting this into the Political sub-forum, but I don't think this is political, it's about being harmful to people and making amends.
> 
> I'm in my early 40s, and wasn't the most considerate man in my young adulthood. If you're Millennial or a Zoomer in a left leaning environment, you have no idea the kind of men's bad behavior that was common and sometimes semi-permissable. For me, I definitely perpetuated some low-grade and mid-grade shit.
> 
> What do you all think, should I rehash all that and try to acknowledge and make amends, like I'm in a 12 step program. Should I let sleeping dogs lie? Does it depend on the severity of the offense? Did you do anything to make amends?


I would agree it depends on the severity of the offense. While I agree that discussing it with her could be healing for you, at the end of the day apologies are meant for the victims of the offense, not the ones who caused the offense. From your description, it sounds like she would probably prefer to leave it be. If, however, you don't think she would be bothered by you broaching the subject, and you find that it is consistently eating at you, contacting her and apologizing probably won't hurt anything.


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## Miharu (Apr 1, 2015)

ricericebaby said:


> It's not a matter of luck. This happens to 4 out of 5 women, and it starts early. It is the common experience of most of my female friends, regardless of social class, background, or ethnicity. I can't say all only because some have simply never talked about it with me. I have yet to hear any female friend say "it's never happened to me" when the subject has come up.
> 
> Every week, it's something new. A man watched and followed me to and from a campsite bathroom this past Sunday. A man openly stared at me for 5-6 minutes straight at a cafe last night, and probably would have followed me outside if it hadn't meant leaving his laptop and other equipment behind unattended. Sometimes I get stalked so aggressively in stores that I have to go out of my way to ditch pursuers; I get catcalled on walks; men I've just met try to connive ways to get into my personal space and touch, grope, or sniff me. Most of that has been an ongoing thing since I was a small child. I was about 10 years old the first time someone tried to kidnap me, around the same age as my cousin was when someone tried to kidnap her for the first time. About a year later, someone flashed me outside my house. A 60 year old man openly propositioned me for sex at a flea market when I was a teenager, and my boss had to intervene to stop a guy who was getting inappropriately physical with me at my first job. Later, multiple people intervened to stop a different guy who had started following me to work at that same job.
> 
> ...


So my statement wasn’t that deep. I was talking more along the lines of “I’m unlucky so many things happened to me specifically.” (Not that I’d wish that upon somebody else…) I’m aware it happens because women are preyed upon, after all I am one lol. I simply know some women who’ve been “lucky” enough not to have had these experiences at all or at least nothing beyond cat calling (which is terrible in its own right). But yes, it’s just the bar is incredibly low and that is sad.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

I didn't start this thread for this sort of commentary, I got some good input and moved forward with it. But I find the male participation interesting, or the lack of it. I was hoping to hear people with similar thoughts, engaging with similar questions, but am mostly hearing, #notallmen and don't give an inch or they'll take a mile. Of which, the latter is only applicable to the topic, practically speaking.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Whippit said:


> but am mostly hearing, #notallmen


Well yeah, because I actually haven't been much of an offender, except like in grade school.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

Ock said:


> Well yeah, because I actually haven't been much of an offender, except like in grade school.


But why even reply if you don't feel like you've done anything, and nobody is accusing you of anything? If I posted a thread about stealing office supplies and feeling bad about it, and you chimed in with #notallemployees, that would be weird right?

I mean, I actually know the reason, it's a kind of shared accusation at men that can translated to shared defensiveness/guilt. But I find it interesting none-the-less.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Whippit said:


> But why even reply if you don't feel like you've done anything, and nobody is accusing you of anything?


Because I saw the thread, and I thought I'd chime in on what is relevant to my own life, because that's a normal thing to do on a thread in a public forum.


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