# Myths and facts: A discussion about 4, 5 and 8



## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

@Inguz: That was an excellent post; thank you for going into more detail about the mindset of a counterphobic reaction.

Yes, I have noticed that sixes tend to display aggressive action more often than eights do - I'd call it a general sense of prickliness that eights, in my experience, don't exhibit. There are a few reasons why this might be - one of them might be that sixes don't engage in routine emotional deadening in order to protect themselves, so they may be able to feel their pain to an extent that eights will not, another might be that sixes are primarily fixated in the mental world, and the anxiety of a six makes their mental states more labile and metacognitive than those of the eight, which leads to reactions based on mental perceptions rather than more territorial concerns. I find it curious to note, though, the fact that the fear is a very eightish one, even though the security seeking 

I would have definitely retained some anger if I had a controlling dad growing up. I don't quite remember my dad; I could contact him and find out what he's been up to, I suppose, but I wouldn't be able to visit in person for a while, for various reasons. I don't know, though; there are just too many things from my childhood to really know where to start, but for now, let's just say, I get where you're coming from here.

I also agree with the clarification that, yes, counterphobia is centered around mental projections rather than direct physical threats. It's the idea of something happening that may cause a situation in which the six will feel afraid that sets off mental alarms and preemptive action. Although it can involve things which are physically present, the counterphobia is focused on the projected threat, not the reality of the thing itself.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I don't think the OP, provided me with enough clarity. I personally prefer personal anecdotes as to why/how someone relates to type rather than reading the same old objective observations written by only god knows who. Since 854 isnt a common tritype I figure I might as well ask the source.
> 
> @_LeaT_
> 
> ...


Yes, I'd very much like to see personal anecdotes too eventually. I'll copy paste that in if someone would like to provide. I relate the most to 5, which is why the 5 is more expanded in this direction of personal anecdotes of 5 "psychobabble" because at least I know it's valid.

As for why I relate to 4, 5 and 8 respectively (and I understand your suspicions), I looked into the motivations of each and they fit me very well. They also describe my overall behavior, attitude and thinking. I DID write a thread about the 458 tritype in this forum a couple of pages or so back about how I experience my tritype from a more personal perspective but then it got criticized for not being theoretical enough :dry:

In the light of THAT, I decided to try a more theoretical approach. If it's too generic, oh well, can't please everyone but I can try. I can't find the actual thread anymore, but I still got the Word document available so I copypaste it here (and yes, my writing style is dramatic, I think people react over that more than the actual content I present sometimes...):


* *




*Analysis of being a 4-5-8: The Scholar*
I think this has been long due, but perhaps a necessary post for me to write. I have been thinking of my tritype a lot recently, both in terms of anger, my need for uniqueness and also my desire to be withdrawn and keep things at arm’s length. The way the 458 tritype works is that there is a strange synergy between all for fixation points, but the synergy is more of a convergence when all motivations line up and point towards one direction but in all other ways the motivations of each fixation work against each other, creating a sense of being scattered, chaotic, lack of focus, a mission and a purpose in life. 

What is common for all fixation points is a sense of lack or that something is missing. 4 lacks an identity to call its own, 5 lacks knowledge and competence and 8 lacks fulfillment and satisfaction. I would say this sense of lacking or missing something is one of the defining features of my life but looking back, and I think the Fauvres summarize the life purpose of 458 perfectly – I desire that which is innately human. One might wonder what “innately human” means and why it is that the 458 tritype out of all tritypes is the most likely to desire this and again, one must look at the sense of lack which stems from all fixation points. 

When studying the holy idea of 4 which is Holy Origin, we can see that 4 is driven by a need to belong and feel unity with the world at large but due to internal shame, does not feel one is worthy or desirable enough to do so. Similarly, the holy idea of 5, Holy Omniscience, is the desire to feel connected with the universe through knowledge. We desire to know all and by doing so, we have the power to do anything. However, just like 4s, there is a sense of being flawed and incomplete, this omniscience can never be reached or attained. Lastly, the holy idea of 8 is Holy Truth. Holy Truth is also a concept of unity, that all is one and one is all. It takes the idea of dualism and turns it into monism. Just like the 4, 8s feel that they are separated, it is them against the world and it is only by conquering the world that they can regain this sense of unity where all is one. 

What separates the types is thus how they manage this sense of loss and separation. The logic of 4 is that if I cannot have it, I will go my own way and become how I want to be to prove myself worthy. In a way, it is thus fair to say that 4s reject their desires by emphasizing their difference. 5 on the other hand, does it in an entirely opposite manner and thinks that if one cannot have it, then one has not done enough to prove one’s worth. We need to learn more and become better and once we reach a specific state of equilibrium we will finally attain the true knowledge and wisdom which we seek. There is specific overlap with how 8 deals with their sense of loss with 4 and 5 – 8 will also do things its own way. If you’re not with me you’re against me and I will prove that I can manage on my own in order to show you my worth. If you do not want me I do not need you either. In this sense it is easy to see how both 4 and 8 are reactive types. However, just like 5, 8 will actively seek out what it truly desires instead of rejecting and ignore those wishes like the 4 does. 

In the light of these fixation motivations, it is easy to see how 458 represents an inner feeling of ultimate loss and lack of belonging and more specifically so, that which is innately human. Innate humanity thus represents a desire for humanity itself. It is a craving to feel unity and belonging, because what unites all three fixation points is a feeling of not belonging. To 4, one is much too flawed to belong, a 5 is too stupid and incompetent to belong and 8 is too weak to belong. 

When looking at my own life philosophies, it is interesting how they reflect the holy ideas of 4, 5 and 8. I have for a very long time believed in unity, that we are all a part of something greater, bigger and better than this (4). I also believe in free will (4, 5 and 8) and believe that if we can know every aspect of something (5 and 8), we will be able to predict the future (5), but knowing the future gives us an ability to choose and act against these outcomes (8) and decide of what we want and who we want to be (4). I also ultimately believe in monism over dualism, and I think that concepts such as Yin and Yang merely represent two sides of the same coin (8), and it is only by examining all sides and realize how they are essential to each other that we can achieve greater wisdom that permeates time (5). 

So why is 458 being called the Scholar and not something else? I actually think the name of the tritype is part misleading because 458s aren’t necessarily scholars in the actual sense of the word. You will not always find a 458 in a dusty hallway studying old manuscripts of old and teach the wisdoms to other people although teaching wisdom is indeed an important aspect of 458 for reasons I will cover below. Instead, the word “scholar” refers to the 458’s search for eternal wisdom and knowledge about life and what it means to be alive and how the 458 will share this knowledge once such insight is attained. I was once called a sage by another member on Personality Café and what is interesting about the 458 is that while we may not always make a lot of fuss about ourselves depending on our core type, people are always willing to listen to what we say, perhaps because there is genuine truth and wisdom in our words because no person has struggled as much and spent as much time trying to understand the mysteries of life as a 458. When a 458 says something, we always do it with the intention of what we say is being useful. We do not say things for the sake of saying things because there is always meaning and intent in our words. 

Out of all the tritypes I’ve studied, there is also a strange feeling of loss carried by the 458 which can be gleaned in their manners, the way they think and talk and behave around others. A perfect and fairly known example of a 458 is professor Snape from the Harry Potter franchise. Dark, intense and brooding Snape seems to constantly be thrown between different kinds of extremities. This is because of how the different fixations constantly oppose each other in the tritype. 4 desires emotional intensity which is contrary to the nature of 5 that prefers emotional coldness because the world is much too dangerous and being emotionally cold is one of the defense mechanisms of how the 5 withdraws and maintains a distance, but 8 desires power, domination and control which is contrary to both 4 and 5 that are withdrawn types and rather introspect than dealing with the world directly. The nature of 8 also amplifies the emotionality of 4 due to how the 8’s passion of Lust manifests itself. The 458 can thus at one point be completely overcome by her feelings and flair of drama from the 4 fixation one moment, and then become incredibly aloof, uncaring and emotionally cold like a 5 the other, and this coldness is emphasized if the 8 influence is strong. These mood swings might not be apparent to an outsider however, especially if the 4 fixation has a 5 wing as showing overt displays of emotion is not in the nature of the 458, with the exception probably being if a sexual 4 subtype and with a possible 3 wing or strong 3 influence as 4w3s are more likely to wear their emotions on their sleeves than other types. If 5 has a 4 wing, the 458 might even appear as a 4 but this might not be known to outsiders who do not know the 458. 

The 458 is also a very withdrawn type and is perhaps the primary example of the lone wolf. Being double-withdrawn by having two withdrawn types in the tritype, it is probably hard to find an extroverted 458, although a strong social instinct can probably lessen the intensity and need to withdraw. If self-preservation or sexual, the 458 is probably likely to be extremely aloof, especially if core 4 or 5 just like Snape. If less healthy, the 458 can also be very grumpy, especially if the 8 influence is strong, and one might be reminded of such characters such as the Grinch or Mr. Scrooge who are probably both good examples of unhealthy 8s themselves. 

Being double-reactive, the 458 might sometimes suddenly explode for no real apparent reason and it might be hard for the 458 to back down from what is perceived as a slight on their character, specifically if that slight relates to their ability to be competent or is seen as an attack on their image, which can also and probably does often overlap with their sense of competence. If the 458 has a strong sexual instinct and is a core 5 or 8, it is also likely that the 458 can be incredibly competitive due to having two power types in the tritype. 

Another peculiar feature of 458 which is more related to the combination of 4 and 8, especially if the 4 has a 5 wing, is that the 458 seems to appear as uninterested, dissatisfied, to be scowling or right-out bored, especially if 5 is strong and the 458 is in what can probably be best described as observation-mode. They can however be caught looking dreamy when they think no one will see them, and while the 458 tends to often have a very analytical and grounded approach to life, especially if the core 4 type is 4w5 or if core 5 or 8 with strong influence. This is because that while 458s inherently believe in that they are not worthy of their dreams going back to their feelings of lack, they deep down desire this unity with humanity and the cosmos no matter what and they might spend a lot of time trying to figure out what it is they actually want or desire in life and what life truly means to them. 

Despite their often projected tough exterior, especially if they are core 5s or 8s and are men, probably even more so if sexual or self-preservation first, 458s are extremely sensitive and emotional. They can be very cynical and maybe even right-out misanthropic but deep down they still want to believe in that there is genuine goodness in the world. If the 8 influence is strong, they might even over-emphasize their non-good aspects of themselves in combination with 4 of not being worthy: “I’m a bad person and I know it and it will not change because it is who I am”. The qualities of 8 become a part of the 4 image. 

Fiercely loyal, the 458 while hard to befriend is a friend you have for life. One ought to be reminded of Snape’s undying love for Lily and how he was willing to do anything for her. This is part because once the 458 has found the representation of innate humanity, we will do everything in our might to chase it and have it back. Especially if we lost it which we are bound to do. There is thus a tendency for the 458 to idealize and mythologize this aspect of innate humanity, especially if it represents another object or another person. Perhaps one can part trace this to the 8’s notion of innocence, but it is also most definitely coupled with the 4’s need for acceptance and the 5’s need to be at peace of mind. If one is just in possession of this innate humanity (does not mean that the 458 must perceive herself as human though), all problems will be solved and one will finally be at peace with oneself and the world and achieve ultimate happiness. 

The 458 is a complex tritype and while there is commonality in the fixation motivations, their different drives and powers creates a person prone to extreme mood swings and is highly independent due to 4, 5 and 8 all being types that are unlikely to value human connection, especially if social last. While they may appear as gloomy and quirky and sometimes even right-out mean and destructive, not only to oneself but also towards others, the 458 is in possession of a specific type of wisdom in the pursuit to find innate humanity and has a strong desire to share these findings with others. Being incredibly stubborn, it is unlikely that the 458 will give up in the chase for knowledge and wisdom despite what logic tells them to, and they will most likely not listen to you no matter how good your advice is, because the 458 is in control of her own mind and body and is unlikely to listen to what other tell her to do and will resist if she experiences a risk of being dominated and controlled, especially if 5w4 for head and 4w5 for image. 




As for your question regarding fix vs individual type: I think in a way, a fix is type, since a fixation means you got those motivations but not as strongly as say, your core type. Ergo I see my core as 5 but fixes 4 ad 8. I essentially came to determine each fixation (5 is also a fixation according to the Favures, just that it's the _dominant_ fixation which is why it's called core), and I've been waffling a bit over core 4 and 5 lately but I read Naranjo's description of sx 5 yesterday. I wanted to deny it (even sp 5 sounds more preferrable that I also relate to) because it was so true. 

If I would go a bit deeper then and look at how I relate to the holy ideas respectively and their vices and passions, it took some time for me to see how habitual and instinctual omniscience is to me for example, and how avarice is expressed in pretty much every moment of my life, even when I am not aware that I am. 

Avarice is part expressed in the above quotes I provided of my daily psychobabble, the need to hoard information, but also in that I strongly relate to the 5 being a power seeker. I see how I constantly control information in order to feel like I am in control and in power, either by providing information or withholding information. 

I think I'll try to expand the 5 section later today so I leave it there for now. In actuality I wonder if discussion of each type in itself would require each own thread/post due to the amount of information you can stuff into it but maybe we can have a more general discussion for now and see if more expansion is needed later. 

So to explain 4 and 8 respectively, 4 is a very strong fixation and focus in how I perceive myself. Before Shadowlight was banned, I wrote quite extensively to her about my childhood experiences and I began to realize how my childhood experiences shaped my 4 fixation in how I feel unloved and this has made me adopt a counterculture kind of approach, almost. So yes, in a way, counter-envy. If I can't have it, I'll hate on it and think that I'm way above all that. An example of counter-envy to me would be for example how I can reason when it comes to others' musical tastes and I think I was more extremely elitist when I was younger than I am now. 

I think perhaps a recent example also to exemplify the differences between 3 and 4 think was a conversation I had with @Amaterasu regarding the direction of my Tumblr account that I have chosen to use in order to promote my artwork. Amaterasu, either having a strong 3 fix or just a strong connection to 3 being a 6, thought I should adapt myself in order to gain more popularity. Make gif images of popular shows after the release of a new episode and stuff like that. It's bound to drag some attention to my blog and I'll gain more followers. While I appreciate her input I think while I want followers (that's the entire point, after all), I don't want followers because I do popular things. I'd want followers because they deeply and truly appreciate my work for what it is and can see that my work is above the works of others and they want more. In summary, I don't want to be like them. And how I would determine this more as a fixation rather than as a wing is that I think my wing is more about how I approach theory and logical thinking. It's no secret I'm rather controversial with how I sometimes present my ideas and it is important that my ideas are unique or present an angle not previously thought of. 

I'm also in general very much against established theories as a principle, as I think no theory is good, established or not, if it cannot fundamentally describe the phenomenon it attempts to describe without being flawed in some way, e.g. the MBTI. Then the theory is clearly not good enough and needs to be improved. But when it matters to how I come across to others, I've learnt to cultivate what I think many descriptions and tests would call "weirdness" very early. Part because it has been socially reinforced on me that I am an outsider, so again, it makes sense how counter-envy plays a role in that if I cannot be with them, I don't need them either. 

And considering how many people think I come across as a 1 fixer, I am not sure more needs to be expanded on the connection I have from 4 to 1 since I am very principled and when I know what I want I'll get it. I'm also reactive, perhaps moreso on this forum than I am IRL, and I can be clingy in relationships if I feel that I'm rejected or unwanted. I have also socially manipulated people in the past by playing the victim card although it's not something I am very prone of doing. Being clingy and playing the victim card are not things I'm proud of. 

Although Naranjo ironically kind of... reshaped some of what I thought was 4 think in the direction of sx 5 think but I can see how both apply. I need to mull more over that, as I was surprised how Naranjo's description perhaps sounded very 5w4 sx/sp for sx 5. I am uncertain how other sx 5s relate to it. 

As for the 8 fix, I think it's not something you see much on surface level. It's after all my last fix and it's probably hidden under what people think is a 1 fix. However, I think 4 + 8 motivations, especially if there's a competency fixation in the tritype, can look very 1-ish in a way. A good example is probably artist Marilyn Manson that I relate strongly to (he's most likely some 458 type with 4 core) and how he can comes across as kind of self-righteous (to some, at least, I don't see it that way) in his attempts to attack religion. 

For me, 8 is probably mostly seen in how I relate to conflict. It may not be seen but in times of conflict, I have very strong lust/vengeance driven logic. My mind is very much set on the need to win and defeat the person I see opposing me rather than it coming out of a sense of frustration that "it needs to be done". Very simplistic and carnal impulse. I was once asked by @Maybe what I thought of my carnal instincts and the very first word that came to my mind was actually "consume". I have also explained how I see 8 to two other 8s (Maybe, @bearotter), and I think in this light I do have a fairly good understanding what emptiness mean. I can recap that metaphor I used with the 8 being like a ballon that is filled with air and it keeps expanding until there's no other air left for other ballons. The 8 is alone. When this happens, the 8 is so big the ballon bursts and as it happens, it's revealed there's nothing inside. It's empty. So even though the 8 kept consuming the resources of others and apparently grew on the outside, it's still empty on the inside. 

To me, lust/vengeance is very much how the 8 constantly tries to fill themselves up with just something to make them feel alive which is done at the expense of others. 8 is very selfish this way, being an id type, and unhealthy or young 8s might not always realize what they are doing is very self-destructive behavior. To me, vengeance is therefore almost like taking something back which was taken from me. If I can't have THAT, then I'll settle for the second best thing. 

I am also very sensitive to power relations between myself and people, or between people and people. I notice quite easily when others try to invade what I think is my personal space. At first I was thinking this was 5 think and the intrusion of the mind, and it's probably related, but the example I'll provide here does probably not relate to 5 logic at all in retrospect, although my overall behavior was more akin to 5 in that I withdrew and I needed to analyze the situation after a while. 

Early last summer, I met a guy who quickly developed a crush on me. At first I let it be because he was a nice guy and I invited him home. Lazy as I am, I had not done the dishes and I think this guy is a 2 fixer somewhere, because his immediate response was to do my dishes. A power battle ensued as I kept telling him that I was fine because I felt like he was trying to control me. I can manage on my own, all that. It's hard to probably separate exactly what is 5 and 8 think specifically here, I think both played a role in how 5 self-sufficiency kicked in with the 8 need for autonomy, although I think a 5 with a non-8 fix would probably have fussed less overall about this situation than I did. I felt manipulated and controlled and I didn't like it as it made me extremely uncomfortable (I think the better word is vulnerable). I invited this guy into my home, the very place few people are allowed to set their foot into, (I'm still very sp 5), and the first thing he does when inside is trying to control me and he can't let go when being told to. 

I could probably have reacted more strongly against what I found to be this intrusion, but I was very clear on that I didn't want him to do it. Yet he insisted and eventually I gave up and played along with his game. I'm still a 5, not an 8. Now, what happened afterwards I am uncertain how I'd attribute it regarding enneagram think, but I suppose more 8 than 5, because I rejected him hardcore after I analyzed what I thought was the best solution to take. I now only have very brief contact with him but haven't seen him face to face in probably over 6 months. He was clearly a person not to be trusted if he cannot respect my space and boundaries even after being told to. It doesn't matter how nice he was, but I hate feeling controlled and he tried to do just that. 

I also want to note that I initially typed as 9w8, so I haven't always identified as 8. This is because I mistook my need to withdraw as a 9 reaction to conflict, when it's most likely just a typical 5 reaction. However, I keep engaging in activities where I can exert control over other people (especially some kind of competitive game where I don't fail terribly e.g. video games) and I've used aggressive music and violent video games as an anger outlet for many years now. When I don't feel like I'm in control of myself and my environment, at least I can exert some kind of imaginary control over others in a game. 

It was actually @FacelessBeauty who initially pointed out to me that I seem to have vengeance tendencies and she's right. As soon as I feel slighted I tend to almost immediately think out of a plan to exact my vengeance. I also feel my relationship to my id very, very strongly, and to be quite frank, in a way, I'm afraid of it. I can see how if I would indulge in it entirely in an unhealthy manner that it'd destroy everything I find to be important. 

But that I'm id driven is still without question because I'm constantly aware of what I want. I'm very self-centered which is why I have a tendency to always talk about myself (although socionics also explains that bit), and I have a hard time exerting what I think would be seen as superego control both when it comes to myself and other people. I'm lazy and self-indulgent and even if I can tell myself, "I probably should do this or that", guilt and shame in relation to those oughts and shoulds rarely linger for longer as I embark on the next amazing journey of self-indulgement. I wouldn't say I'm shameless, I think I can feel shame quite strongly, especially when I'm in conflict with my dad (9w1 most likely, so when angry, that 1 wing just reeks and I want to disappear through the earth), but I think compared to what most others think of as shameless, yeah, I guess I can be. I just don't make excuses for myself and I stand for what I do. @Maybe called it a forthright attitude, I suppose it is. I do have a "here I am, take it or leave it" approach when it comes to myself and people that I also definitely see is being more related to 8 than 5 or 4. 

/end of ramble I hope that answered some of your questions and it should also reveal that typing people off a forum where you might see more of an online persona but not the underlying motivations can definitely be tricky too.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Yeah and on this point, let me say my perspective is that a healthy, proper state of mind for me would be to be able to overpower them as they attempt to wrong me, rather than wait for it to escalate this far. Sure I'm w9, but I hold in distaste the idea of not letting them be slammed back. I think it is good for their health and well-being to be slammed back with twice the force they used on me. It is sensible and correct.


I know, right? I've always had the mentality that I'll only play dirty if the opponent plays dirty since it's clear they are not interested in playing fair, so why should I? If I decide to play fair when they are not, they win, I lose, or at least the chances that I'll lose become greater so what's the point? Then it's not better to engage at all. 

When I was extremely unhealthy mentally, I used to harbor an eye-for-an-eye mentality. It was also the same time when I happily proposed that innocence as a Western concept didn't exist and that children in particular, are not innocent. I'm still torn about this as I'm finally seeing perhaps what it means, but then I know that children can also be oh so cruel. Saying they don't know better isn't a good explanation but more an excuse. 

It's interesting how as I became more healthy, I began to see goodness in the world. Had you asked me what I thought about this when I was 18, I would probably have responded that we're better off being all atom bombed to death since we had it coming anyway. I still kind of feel this way regarding global warming, though <.<


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> I tend to observe 5ish traits in myself the more bogged down and stressed I feel - that stuff about info seeking is crazy close to the process I go through before undertaking something major.
> 
> Something to keep in mind is people who come to post about their personality type and explore themselves (especially in types like 4,5 and 8) aren't exactly going to fit the norm.


Could you expand more what being stressed out and disintegrated means to you?


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

eyenexepee said:


> You should do some more digging. Usually, if not always, people who point out misconceptions in @_LeaT_ 's posts get dismissed for being unproductive or that they miss the entire point. I'm not sniping, I'm continuing what I think needs to be done: that other people keep their eyes open and their mind sharp. I am not against LeaT posting, but I'm just... Unpleasantly amazed by how easily others trust in her knowledge and judgment. Til recently I have just left things alone, but I'm getting more and more upset. And I certainly can see myself losing hours of just explaining to others why this or that is not right or wrong. That's more time than I'm willing to lose - yet I cannot sit here and do nothing as well.


You are making many assumptions here (especially about what I'm doing). But it still doesn't change the bottom line, which is, "Can you point out flaws in the information being provided?" I don't really care what LeaT's past posting history with you is; it's not like she is considering a "type expert," this is essentially a casual forum about a body of knowledge that is mostly anecdotal and amateur to start with. And instead of addressing what you think is wrong with the OP in terms of the information being provided, you make it a character attack.

Is there something wrong with what she said? That's all I really care about. In my 15+ years of reading enneagram materials and study that system of typology (reading Riso, Palmer, etc.), I really didn't see a problem with it. Did I miss something? If you have a criticism of the material she is posting, I'd like to hear that, and meanwhile leave criticisms of people out of it. as far as I can see, she started a new thread to talk about content to get away from character attacks, and the first response she gets is yet another character attack. That doesn't seem very productive to me.

That kind of goes for everyone. Let's just criticize the information, if it is flawed. I really don't give a shit about who has problems with someone else, I'm not part of your drama; I just want to learn something new. (I see there have been some posts here that have actually dealt with the topic, so I look forward to reading through those over lunch...)


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## Herp (Nov 25, 2010)

I'm confused about the 6 reaction to anxiety and the 5 reaction to anxiety.

You said that a type 5 feels anxious when the world isn't catalogued within their knowledge. A type 6 wouldn't feel anxious in the same situation? Isn't the anxiety rooted in the fact that this situation make them feel they cannot prepare for the world ahead? How do I differ a 5 from a 6 then?


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Jennywocky said:


> You are making many assumptions here (especially about what I'm doing). But it still doesn't change the bottom line, which is, "Can you point out flaws in the information being provided?" I don't really care what LeaT's past posting history with you is; it's not like she is considering a "type expert," this is essentially a casual forum about a body of knowledge that is mostly anecdotal and amateur to start with. And instead of addressing what you think is wrong with the OP in terms of the information being provided, you make it a character attack.


LOL. Didn't I say that I wrote what I wrote to put down a warning sign? You and @mimesis seem to have expected my posts to be a discussion about the OP. Nuh uh, I made clear from the start that that wasn't the case. However, if it was a character attack, I'd be more vicious, and I'd probably be already banned or something. 

But hey, guess what, I was already writing something in reply to what LeaT said in a later post. Hope it makes your day. If not, then no problem.


@LeaT, Your last remark in the post I'm quoting from is highly ironical. I can see your persona better than you can, or perhaps you're in denial. What I'm about to do is either gonna help you get better at becoming your desired persona, or help you confront yourself with the truth. It is up to you.



LeaT said:


> As for your question regarding fix vs individual type: I think in a way, a fix is type, since a fixation means you got those motivations but not as strongly as say, your core type. Ergo I see my core as 5 but fixes 4 ad 8. I essentially came to determine each fixation (5 is also a fixation according to the Favures, just that it's the _dominant_ fixation which is why it's called core), and I've been waffling a bit over core 4 and 5 lately but I read Naranjo's description of sx 5 yesterday. I wanted to deny it (even sp 5 sounds more preferrable that I also relate to) because it was so true.


Close, but not really. A *fixation* is the way you look at life - the prescription you have in your glasses with which you behold reality. Every type has their own fixation. A fix however in tritype theory is the one enneatype you relate most with from a set of three. If your core type is a head type, then the gut type you relate most to is your gut fix, the heart type you relat most to is your heart fix (or image fix, if you will).



> If I would go a bit deeper then and look at how I relate to the holy ideas respectively and their vices and passions, it took some time for me to see how habitual and instinctual omniscience is to me for example, and how avarice is expressed in pretty much every moment of my life, even when I am not aware that I am.


The Holy Ideas are the nine universal ideas that stem from Being (if you don't believe in the spiritual aspect of the enneagram, then see it as nine major life themes or something, up to you). Everybody relates to one Holy Idea the most and that is your core type. When you say you how habitual and instinctual omniscience is to you, I can only become more skeptic. When you are born, you lose touch, your connection, with Being. The Holy Idea that you once felt connected with, is replaced by a fixation that is formed through you developing your personality structure in your younger years. A Holy Idea is what you work towards all of your life and so little people actually reach it - compare it to true enlightment in buddhism for example. I can accept it that you may relate to Holy Omniscience, but I am highly skeptical about how habitual and instinctual it is for you.

This either shows you don't understand the concepts, or you just have a pretty way of saying that you relate to Five's Holy Idea in a way that I find suspicious of praising yourself - consciously or unconsciously.



> Avarice is part expressed in the above quotes I provided of my daily psychobabble, the need to hoard information, but also in that I strongly relate to the 5 being a power seeker. I see how I constantly control information in order to feel like I am in control and in power, either by providing information or withholding information.


Avarice is not only hoarding, it is also not sharing and holding on to this information objectively (you seem to share very happily on the forums though) - Five's avarice is also a hoarding that doesn't use (unlike Seven's gluttony, to use and experience everything), resulting in the symptom that Five's do not experientally know themselves. They can analyze and analyze yet still miss the feeling that they truly understand themselves.



> So to explain 4 and 8 respectively, 4 is a very strong fixation and focus in how I perceive myself. Before Shadowlight was banned, I wrote quite extensively to her about my childhood experiences and I began to realize how my childhood experiences shaped my 4 fixation in how I feel unloved and this has made me adopt a counterculture kind of approach, almost. So yes, in a way, counter-envy. If I can't have it, I'll hate on it and think that I'm way above all that. An example of counter-envy to me would be for example how I can reason when it comes to others' musical tastes and I think I was more extremely elitist when I was younger than I am now.


I accept that this is your childhood experience, but I am not sure if that is the typical Four childhood - typical Four childhood is about kids not being able to identify with their parents, feeling alien, feeling alone. That they were defective somehow compared to their parents, that there was something inherently wrong with them. You may have felt like such, and that it resulted in you not feeling loved. That's definitely a possibility. But the focus is not on being unloved, the focus is on the alienation, on the difference, on feeling not able to connect with their parents because of an inherent cause. Because of this, Fours put themselves on the look-out for their own identity. To find out what's wrong with themselves. And through such, a Four develops a sense of ego-identity based on how different they are from others. If you truly think you're id-driven, this is something you should consider as a pointer towards not being a core Four. 

But think about it with care, for typical childhood descriptions are what they are: (stereo-)typical. I'll leave it up to your own judgment.



> I think perhaps a recent example also to exemplify the differences between 3 and 4 think was a conversation I had with @_Amaterasu_ regarding the direction of my Tumblr account that I have chosen to use in order to promote my artwork. Amaterasu, either having a strong 3 fix or just a strong connection to 3 being a 6, thought I should adapt myself in order to gain more popularity. Make gif images of popular shows after the release of a new episode and stuff like that. It's bound to drag some attention to my blog and I'll gain more followers. While I appreciate her input I think while I want followers (that's the entire point, after all), I don't want followers because I do popular things. I'd want followers because they deeply and truly appreciate my work for what it is and can see that my work is above the works of others and they want more. In summary, I don't want to be like them. And how I would determine this more as a fixation rather than as a wing is that I think my wing is more about how I approach theory and logical thinking. It's no secret I'm rather controversial with how I sometimes present my ideas and it is important that my ideas are unique or present an angle not previously thought of.


This does sound very Four-ish. But what is missing here is that if you were an Sx Four, is that it is not about the works, but that it is about your talents, and what your works say about you. It may be Sp Four - perhaps. Better yet, I think it's closer to 3w4, given how it's got little to do with your personality but more so with success. 



> I'm also in general very much against established theories as a principle, as I think no theory is good, established or not, if it cannot fundamentally describe the phenomenon it attempts to describe without being flawed in some way, e.g. the MBTI. Then the theory is clearly not good enough and needs to be improved. But when it matters to how I come across to others, I've learnt to cultivate what I think many descriptions and tests would call "weirdness" very early. Part because it has been socially reinforced on me that I am an outsider, so again, it makes sense how counter-envy plays a role in that if I cannot be with them, I don't need them either.


Counter-envy is basically denying that you're envious. Envious not of "having or not having people", but of having the people's traits that a Four would like to make part of their identity. Yes it results in rejection of the desired object, but out of denial of being envious - the object becomes "not desirable" as a means of coping with the unwanted fact that the object is very much desirable.



> As for the 8 fix, I think it's not something you see much on surface level. It's after all my last fix and it's probably hidden under what people think is a 1 fix. However, I think 4 + 8 motivations, especially if there's a competency fixation in the tritype, can look very 1-ish in a way. A good example is probably artist Marilyn Manson that I relate strongly to (he's most likely some 458 type with 4 core) and how he can comes across as kind of self-righteous (to some, at least, I don't see it that way) in his attempts to attack religion.


I agree that Eight and One as a fix are difficult to separate from each other. I don't know if Four and Eight motivations together may look like One-ish. It sounds far fetched, but I won't rule it out.



> For me, 8 is probably mostly seen in how I relate to conflict. It may not be seen but in times of conflict, I have very strong lust/vengeance driven logic. My mind is very much set on the need to win and defeat the person I see opposing me rather than it coming out of a sense of frustration that "it needs to be done". Very simplistic and carnal impulse. I was once asked by @_Maybe_ what I thought of my carnal instincts and the very first word that came to my mind was actually "consume". I have also explained how I see 8 to two other 8s (Maybe, @_bearotter_), and I think in this light I do have a fairly good understanding what emptiness mean. I can recap that metaphor I used with the 8 being like a ballon that is filled with air and it keeps expanding until there's no other air left for other ballons. The 8 is alone. When this happens, the 8 is so big the ballon bursts and as it happens, it's revealed there's nothing inside. It's empty. So even though the 8 kept consuming the resources of others and apparently grew on the outside, it's still empty on the inside.


Eights don't really need to win. What they want is to not feel confined, not controlled by someone else. Vengeance as a vice comes from being wronged in this way, it is not the plain simple earthly vengeance of "you killed my brother, now I'm going to kill you".



> To me, lust/vengeance is very much how the 8 constantly tries to fill themselves up with just something to make them feel alive which is done at the expense of others. 8 is very selfish this way, being an id type, and unhealthy or young 8s might not always realize what they are doing is very self-destructive behavior. To me, vengeance is therefore almost like taking something back which was taken from me. If I can't have THAT, then I'll settle for the second best thing.


That's more like it. Although, settling for the second best thing? Hmmm.



> I am also very sensitive to power relations between myself and people, or between people and people. I notice quite easily when others try to invade what I think is my personal space. At first I was thinking this was 5 think and the intrusion of the mind, and it's probably related, but the example I'll provide here does probably not relate to 5 logic at all in retrospect, although my overall behavior was more akin to 5 in that I withdrew and I needed to analyze the situation after a while.
> 
> Early last summer, I met a guy who quickly developed a crush on me. At first I let it be because he was a nice guy and I invited him home. Lazy as I am, I had not done the dishes and I think this guy is a 2 fixer somewhere, because his immediate response was to do my dishes. A power battle ensued as I kept telling him that I was fine because I felt like he was trying to control me. I can manage on my own, all that. It's hard to probably separate exactly what is 5 and 8 think specifically here, I think both played a role in how 5 self-sufficiency kicked in with the 8 need for autonomy, although I think a 5 with a non-8 fix would probably have fussed less overall about this situation than I did. I felt manipulated and controlled and I didn't like it as it made me extremely uncomfortable (I think the better word is vulnerable). I invited this guy into my home, the very place few people are allowed to set their foot into, (I'm still very sp 5), and the first thing he does when inside is trying to control me and he can't let go when being told to.
> 
> I could probably have reacted more strongly against what I found to be this intrusion, but I was very clear on that I didn't want him to do it. Yet he insisted and eventually I gave up and played along with his game. I'm still a 5, not an 8. Now, what happened afterwards I am uncertain how I'd attribute it regarding enneagram think, but I suppose more 8 than 5, because I rejected him hardcore after I analyzed what I thought was the best solution to take. I now only have very brief contact with him but haven't seen him face to face in probably over 6 months. He was clearly a person not to be trusted if he cannot respect my space and boundaries even after being told to. It doesn't matter how nice he was, but I hate feeling controlled and he tried to do just that.


Perhaps you shouldn't attribute it to enneagram at all... I can understand that you felt your private space being intruded upon, but to take it to the level of it being a power battle - over washing dishes nonetheless - that's over the top. The same thing for having gravitas/leadership by people rearranging silverware. I think you were fussed about the situation mostly because you are trying so hard, with all the self-analysis over the most non-substantial issues one can think of, seeing enneagram in everything... Which has become the persona I'm seeing in you. Misinterpreting, whether knowingly or unknowingly, to suit your goal.



> I also want to note that I initially typed as 9w8, so I haven't always identified as 8. This is because I mistook my need to withdraw as a 9 reaction to conflict, when it's most likely just a typical 5 reaction. However, I keep engaging in activities where I can exert control over other people (especially some kind of competitive game where I don't fail terribly e.g. video games) and I've used aggressive music and violent video games as an anger outlet for many years now. When I don't feel like I'm in control of myself and my environment, at least I can exert some kind of imaginary control over others in a game.


There's simply too much obsession with control rather than being free of being controlled. There is a subtle but major difference. It's just all the more pointing towards disintegrated Six.



> It was actually @_FacelessBeauty_ who initially pointed out to me that I seem to have vengeance tendencies and she's right. As soon as I feel slighted I tend to almost immediately think out of a plan to exact my vengeance. I also feel my relationship to my id very, very strongly, and to be quite frank, in a way, I'm afraid of it. I can see how if I would indulge in it entirely in an unhealthy manner that it'd destroy everything I find to be important.
> 
> But that I'm id driven is still without question because I'm constantly aware of what I want. I'm very self-centered which is why I have a tendency to always talk about myself (although socionics also explains that bit), and I have a hard time exerting what I think would be seen as superego control both when it comes to myself and other people. I'm lazy and self-indulgent and even if I can tell myself, "I probably should do this or that", guilt and shame in relation to those oughts and shoulds rarely linger for longer as I embark on the next amazing journey of self-indulgement. I wouldn't say I'm shameless, I think I can feel shame quite strongly, especially when I'm in conflict with my dad (9w1 most likely, so when angry, that 1 wing just reeks and I want to disappear through the earth), but I think compared to what most others think of as shameless, yeah, I guess I can be. I just don't make excuses for myself and I stand for what I do. @_Maybe_ called it a forthright attitude, I suppose it is. I do have a "here I am, take it or leave it" approach when it comes to myself and people that I also definitely see is being more related to 8 than 5 or 4.


Id-driven and still a Five? Sorry, no. Just no. 



> /end of ramble I hope that answered some of your questions and it should also reveal that typing people off a forum where you might see more of an online persona but not the underlying motivations can definitely be tricky too.


I swear I see your persona better than you do, simply because you don't want to see/acknowledge it, because it doesn't align with your desired image. It is evidenced by the knowledge you lack, by how you write things that almost makes us think of Four, Five or Eight... But simply don't really cut it as Four, Five or Eight.

Right, so... 

This post I intended mostly for @LeaT , but perhaps people now understand that this is why I posted a warning sign. I foresaw that this was gonna take time and energy from me that I thought would be a waste, but maybe it is not a waste if people can understand where I'm coming from now. I'm just not interested in stalking LeaT and correcting everything that needs to be corrected. I will probably stick around to answer questions or replies to this post, perhaps I'll even think about criticizing the OP. If I feel like wasting more time. 

There truly are enormous holes in her knowledge and understanding and I think it is because LeaT's molding her understanding of enneagram so to suit her desired persona. It's not helping her type herself but strengthen her misguided belief in what she perceives to be her true self. I am annoyed how easily people believe in her flawed reasoning and argumentation. It's just a mess, and I know I cannot set it straight, only she can.

As I said, I can see this being beneficial to LeaT in two ways. Perhaps there are more. But whatever the outcome, so be it, this needed to be said.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> I think I am, thank you. It's all sweet that you have good intentions to clarify one thing and another, but really, what I quoted is a good point to have reasons to distrust your understanding and discernment. Of course everybody is free to be productive and write a long ass post about misconceptions. I have no problems with that. I'm just being productive by putting down a warning sign for people to be a little critical. *They don't have to put knives and forks on the table the same way they're being told to.*












DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Herp said:


> I'm confused about the 6 reaction to anxiety and the 5 reaction to anxiety.
> 
> You said that a type 5 feels anxious when the world isn't catalogued within their knowledge. A type 6 wouldn't feel anxious in the same situation? Isn't the anxiety rooted in the fact that this situation make them feel they cannot prepare for the world ahead? How do I differ a 5 from a 6 then?


Think I was unclear in retrospect, yes. I'll edit it later as I just arrived home. What I meant was that 6s tend to be more proactive in their approach as they generate what if scenarios to prepare for. 5s don't really generate what if scenarios but rather see what is and try to understand that. If the situation chances then knowledge is simply adapted in a similar fashion.

@*eyenexepee* this thread is still not about me or my perception of myself so I'd see you rather leave that out of it. If I use myself as the basis of understanding information, I'd rather see you discussing why it's flawed in terms of theory, not why it's flawed in terms of my character, and the frame you are using to form this discussion is still aimed towards the latter even if you pretend to somewhat try to do the former. 

I've had lengthy discussions with people I find to have a far deeper knowledge and understanding of enneagram theory than I have, and the evidence is rather conclusive towards these three fixations. It is thus not something I arrived at alone, but something I arrived at discussing with other people who have studied enneagram far longer than I have. Furthermore, sx 5 connects by sharing information. You have no clue how conscious I am regarding what information I choose or share or not share which became evident in the type me thread I created long time ago where I felt the thread started to pass a border where I didn't want to share more information. 

The below quote is in response to what you wrote regarding fixations and what I have personally read regarding tritype. This is taken from the Fauvre's book about tritype, and are the first three paragraphs of the introduction section. Bolding is mine:



Fauvre & Fauvre said:


> Extensive research has shown that one has not one, but* three Enneagram Types used in a preferred order.* These three Enneagram Types always occur in each of the three centers of intelligence: head, heart and gut. The Enneagram Tritype combination identifies these three Enneagram types, adding significant precision, accuracy and scope to the Enneagram Typing process.
> 
> *One of the three types in one's Tritype is dominant or primary and represents the ego's preferred defense strategy. However, when the strategy of the dominant Enneagram Type fails, the ego then uses the strategies of the other two types within the Tritype in a repeating, descending order*. In an attempt to solve a problem, the ego will continue to deploy the other two types in the Tritype until the issue is resolved.
> 
> The defense strategies of the type within the Tritype combine, creating a unique focus of attention with a shared worldview. Research1 suggests that the common theme found among the three types within one's Tritype identifies one's archetypal life purpose and a critical blind spot to self-awareness. In addition, the shared view by the types in one's Tritype gives important clues as to what is needed to live a more conscious and meaningful life.


And what I mean regarding the holy ideas is of course how the disconnection of the holy idea plays out. I thought that was evident. The entire point I was making was that I can see how being disconnected from the holy idea creates avarice in me.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

LeaT said:


> If I use myself as the basis of understanding information, I'd rather see you discussing why it's flawed in terms of theory, not why it's flawed in terms of my character, and the frame you are using to form this discussion is still aimed towards the latter even if you pretend to somewhat try to do the former.


/facepalm -_- 

Pretending? 

Didn't you read what I wrote? At first, I was here to put down a warning sign. "People please be critical." Then, as I was writing a reply to one of your posts, which at first I was doubting to post, I was challenged to post something substantial whatsoever. So I did. And if you read carefully, I am tackling your understanding and interpretation of the theory, and with that your decision to identify as 458. Not your character. I would have been calling you names, or putting virtual daggers into your personality. Which I am not.

Am I sensing a relapse of your old habit of playing the victim? I hope I'm wrong. Anyways, I'll take it to PM's with you.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> /facepalm -_-
> 
> Pretending?
> 
> ...


If you saw, I did respond to what I saw as more theoretical so I don't see the problem. Take it a PM if you want but don't expect a response.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow. Really now.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

@eyenexepee

You are correcting a lot of vocabulary, but not really necessarily correcting the understanding of the things you responded to. Vocabulary is useful, and I appreciate your input there, but I'd like to challenge many different occasions you question understanding, for your own benefit -- it is not clear to me that the things you are responding to imply poor understanding, but simply use of wording that do not expressly try to make constant reference to the use you're familiar with, likely from your readings.

I am referring to your bold claim here:



eyenexepee said:


> Your last remark in the post I'm quoting from is highly ironical. I can see your persona better than you can, or perhaps you're in denial.








eyenexepee said:


> I can only become more skeptic. When you are born, you lose touch, your connection, with Being. The Holy Idea that you once felt connected with, is replaced by a fixation that is formed through you developing your personality structure in your younger years. A Holy Idea is what you work towards all of your life and so little people actually reach it - compare it to true enlightment in buddhism for example. I can accept it that you may relate to Holy Omniscience, but I am highly skeptical about how habitual and instinctual it is for you.




Now let's stop here for a moment. When someone says how instinctual omniscience is to them, does that necessarily mean they consider themselves omniscient? I would rule out that possibility, because they wouldn't really need to ask questions to strengthen their knowledge, would they.

Instead, some limited notion of "omniscience" which is really such a philosophically grand idea that it betrays our attempts to really define it adequately, becomes the fixation, and one achieves various different stages en route to seeking the fixation.

I liked your analogy with Buddhist enlightenment, but I don't see what exactly you're correcting here, unless you think by "how habitual omniscience is," you think what is being claimed is that some form of all-knowing-ness has become a habit.

Let us assume that is the case, even. Then what notion of omniscience is held within the poster's mind must be garnered prior to addressing it. In fact, of your own admission as to skepticism, that notion held in the poster's mind would be far from "absolute" in any sense, as you see fit to the terminology, whence you would have to uncover what bastardization is held within.




LeaT said:


> _For me, 8 is probably mostly seen in how I relate to conflict. It may not be seen but in times of conflict, I have very strong lust/vengeance driven logic. My mind is very much set on the need to win and defeat the person I see opposing me rather than it coming out of a sense of frustration that "it needs to be done". Very simplistic and carnal impulse. I was once asked by @__Maybe what I thought of my carnal instincts and the very first word that came to my mind was actually "consume". I have also explained how I see 8 to two other 8s (Maybe, @bearotter), and I think in this light I do have a fairly good understanding what emptiness mean. I can recap that metaphor I used with the 8 being like a ballon that is filled with air and it keeps expanding until there's no other air left for other ballons. The 8 is alone. When this happens, the 8 is so big the ballon bursts and as it happens, it's revealed there's nothing inside. It's empty. So even though the 8 kept consuming the resources of others and apparently grew on the outside, it's still empty on the inside.
> 
> 
> _


And your response to this:



> Eights don't really need to win. What they want is to not feel confined, not controlled by someone else. Vengeance as a vice comes from being wronged in this way, it is not the plain simple earthly vengeance of "you killed my brother, now I'm going to kill you".




hardly makes reference to the analogies, or the spirit of the prior post. So I wonder what _clear sign there is_ that the information you provided addresses a fundamental misunderstanding. I agree with your words on 8's and control, yet at times, _as a special instance of that relationship to control_, the need to win may accompany, and would be of a very different character from say, perhaps, a 3's need to win.




> Perhaps you shouldn't attribute it to enneagram at all... I can understand that you felt your private space being intruded upon, but to take it to the level of it being a power battle - over washing dishes nonetheless - that's over the top. The same thing for having gravitas/leadership by people rearranging silverware. I think you were fussed about the situation mostly because you are trying so hard, with all the self-analysis over the most non-substantial issues one can think of, seeing enneagram in everything




Seeing enneagram in everything can lead to distortion of what means what -- one may overattribute how much a certain action, thought, etc was influenced by an enneagram fixation, but the thing you have to keep in mind is that when someone makes reference to an instance that convinced him/her of being a certain type or having a certain fix, it is not the incident alone but _all the surrounding thoughts and emotions relating_to that moment.

The complexity of these is not inherent to that single incident described, but is inherent to their being in relation to the incident described.




> There truly are enormous holes in her knowledge and understanding




Even if there were, you have been unable to demonstrate them, not because of lack of understanding of enneagram theory at a foundational level necessarily, but because you must widen your horizons in terms of how people come to understand and describe themselves through the system.

The issue with what you are doing is that you are attempting to guess whether or not an experience a poster writes as indicative of a type or fix is truly indicative of it, when the bread and butter of whether or not it is lies in the poster's relationship to that experience, to the fixations and attitudes surrounding it, and the interrelation among the distinguishing abstract features of a type and the concrete experience -- these are highly nontrivial.

Whence, I suggest you make humbler claims as to how well you understand a poster. It is fine to suggest that a certain thing is not in and of itself indicative of a certain type, and you will never find me disagreeing with that, yet this does not mean it wasn't a valuable clue, and if you wish to get to the bottom of it, you must find out in detail why they think it is a clue, and that often involves getting to know the said individual on a deeper level




> There's simply too much obsession with control rather than being free of being controlled. There is a subtle but major difference. It's just all the more pointing towards disintegrated Six.




Actually, without studying the entirety of someone's relation to 6, this in and of itself says very little.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> Am I sensing a relapse of your old habit of playing the victim? I hope I'm wrong




Am I sensing that the misunderstandings you perceive are marred by your impression of the poster's character, and not guided by a deep understanding of the poster's internal workings? 

I hope I'm wrong as well.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

What you posted for 5 actually seemed more 6w5 to me, I haven't read this whole thread, so I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that yet


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I have a point to make about this "character attack" theme that's cropped up here. I don't understand how what @_eyenexepee_ said is a "*character* attack". Were any value judgments on her "character" made here? No. And, I don' understand why people who don't care for drama insert themselves into it anyway. If you don't want drama, don't make yourself a part of it. And I've noticed how she steps away, but others pick the shit up in her absence, which only fuels the nonsense further.

Objectively, it's obvious that Eyenex. pointing out that @_LeaT_'s knowledge and the claims she makes at times, are widely off the mark, at least as far as Enneagram goes, addresses her personally as opposed to just her initial post. It's definitely critical, but it doesn't make any sense to repeatedly frame it as a "character attack". Yes, it would be more productive to focus on what she says, but there's nothing inherently defamatory (character attack srsly?) about the statement that someone's Enneagram knowledge is not up to the mark. Yet, I see the whole thing has claimed 4 entire pages of bickering. 


And, I say this from a neutral perspective. Because honestly, I don't even know her. I've seen a lot of her posts on the E, many of which I found were grossly lacking in theoretical rigour (even by standards of "amateur arm chair Enneagram theory", mind you) to the point that they were downright bizarre and made little to no sense. This applies just as well to some of the statements in the OP here. 

And if I were to go and post on the JCF/MBTI forums (considering my knowledge of the material needs a ton of work), I'd be wary of starting threads dispelling stereotypes and what not until I actually had a solid grasp of the material. Not only that, if I ventured to do so, I'd be willing to accept criticism of the material shared and any general comments to the effect that I, personally, am not proficient in the theory. It is intellectually weak and arrogant to not accept responsibility for your own lack of command on a subject, again, even given "amateur forum participation" lol standards. And, I saw her disclaimer that she was open to having her post critiqued. If someone went as far as telling her that her knowledge has chasms the size of sinkholes, it's not the end of the world. Framing it as a "warning" for others wasn't the most 'socially appropriate' or what have you thing to say, but I've certainly heard worse on this forum, especially from Leat's herself who has often gotten incredibly personal with people in a way that outright crosses the line so far into personal attack category that it's not even funny. I mean if you can dish it...you should be able to take some. 


A more productive use of the thread would be just focus on the contents of the post, sure. But, repeatedly answering FOR Leats' when she's fully capable of defending herself is getting ludicrous. She's an adult, and she has quite a mouth on her, so she can bloody well handle this on her own. There's no need to victimize her, and run to her defense, like she's some wilting flower who can't manage her own thread. The whiteknighting has its place, but this is not it. There was no "character attack". Period.

Get over it.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

Two points:

I agree, the "attack" on the OP was clearly no character attack, and it seems typical of leat to scream bloody murder over it.

I agree, I don't see leat as a 5. I would more easily see her as a 4. Maybe 9 or something else is possible, I'm not so sure, but 4 would be my first guess.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

"Character attack" is a matter of definition really. Who really cares if it was a character attack or not by whatever definition?

The point is if you're going to correct someone's knowledge, first of all figure out how they are representing their knowledge in words -- this requires patient clarification.

There is a real issue, which is I have found in personality theory forums people dish out a lot of terminology and support themselves with references, and then focus on ensuring posters' adherence to the references. While this isn't a terrible goal which I am fundamentally against, there is more to the story.

Ultimately, how your type relates to you is a very abstract link. It cannot be linked back so easily to any line of text, for a type is ultimately (unless I see definitions otherwise) a theoretical conclusion, and thus the interpretation of the ideas in a consistent way to fit one's own persona does involve some choices that none but one equipped with the deep inner workings of the individual can immediately point to. 

To bring in JCF, there is some extent of introversion which must go into deciding the type. Reasoning and perceiving of an introverted fashion can be projected on paper but not quite replicated. Sometimes the perceptions of someone as to another's type and the analysis of that type consist more of judging these projections, whence they link more to the skill of projection than the skill of analysis, and the opposite scenario can happen, where projection is strong and analysis is comparably weak, so a presentation well-referenced and coated with very little depth can be checked off by "experts" as viable, and this also is, depending on point of view, of no use.

I support taking the wise advice of @_Boss_ and simply focusing on the most productive option, which is to address the knowledge, and might I add, ideally with the attitude to enlighten and not to correct {if one does not understand the theoretical distinction, one will after re-reading my post for comprehension}.


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

LeaT said:


> Could you expand more what being stressed out and disintegrated means to you?


Sure. It's mostly when I'm slowing down, like I've made a few too many bad decisons and im too burned out, I take a time out. I start to think things over and analyze things, where's usually I'm a here and now type of thinker; not really considering the past or future in my decision making. That thing you described, about data gathering when you play games, I do a similar thing - I gather all the data about what I'm interested in, and then I discard all info that doesn't match my style or approach.

Edit: I see drama always finds its way into these threads.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Inguz
just a small clarification. it's actually 6w5 which is more likely to look like 8w7 rather than 6w7. 6w7s are more visibly nervous and more likely to turn to external security structures, both of which are dead giveaways that they are not 8s; however, 6w7 and 7w8 can look an awful lot alike and have similar behavioral tendencies and defense mechanisms. 
6w5s on the other hand have more hidden anxiety and tend to turn inward for security. they can also possess a more ruthless, sinister quality to them than the 6w7 and can mimic the behaviors of 8w7s when they disintegrate to 5.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Inguz
> just a small clarification. it's actually 6w5 which is more likely to look like 8w7 rather than 6w7. 6w7s are more visibly nervous and more likely to turn to external security structures, both of which are dead giveaways that they are not 8s; however, 6w7 and 7w8 can look an awful lot alike and have similar behavioral tendencies and defense mechanisms.
> 6w5s on the other hand have more hidden anxiety and tend to turn inward for security. they can also possess a more ruthless, sinister quality to them than the 6w7 and can mimic the behaviors of 8w7s when they disintegrate to 5.


I can tell that you have no clue what you are talking about as usual. Anger numbs any nervousness and replaces it with adrenaline, come here and I'll show you how nervous I look.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> I accept that this is your childhood experience, but I am not sure if that is the typical Four childhood - typical Four childhood is about kids not being able to identify with their parents, feeling alien, feeling alone. That they were defective somehow compared to their parents, that there was something inherently wrong with them. You may have felt like such, and that it resulted in you not feeling loved. That's definitely a possibility. But the focus is not on being unloved, the focus is on the alienation, on the difference, on feeling not able to connect with their parents because of an inherent cause. Because of this, Fours put themselves on the look-out for their own identity. To find out what's wrong with themselves. And through such, a Four develops a sense of ego-identity based on how different they are from others. If you truly think you're id-driven, this is something you should consider as a pointer towards not being a core Four.
> 
> But think about it with care, for typical childhood descriptions are what they are: (stereo-)typical. I'll leave it up to your own judgment.


I agree with the distinction you make between 'unloved' and 'alienated'. On the other hand, Four (alienated) desintegrates into Two (unloved), so there is a certain relation or overlap between the two affects. You probably can find a song where both are united in one feeling tone. 

By which I mean to say, if this isn't easy sometimes for an adolescent or mature to discern or be aware of in one's own current emotions, to what extend can you expect a young child to be able to differentiate between the two? I wonder, can you even be really aware of an emotion, if you don't have a word to discern it with? I think I was 12 or 13 when I first heard the word 'alienation'. 

I think in arguing so, you project your mature apperception to the psyche of a young child, which strikes me as a bit odd. I agree with @_bearotter_ what matter's most, is how someone experiences and apperceives a situation. (and how it develops over time) I know from meditating practice, there are a lot of experiences in childhood that were left unprocessed just because I was too young to grasp it, and in some cases didn't even know whether to laugh or cry.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Inguz said:


> I can tell that you have no clue what you are talking about as usual. *Anger numbs any nervousness and replaces it with adrenaline, come here and I'll show you how nervous I look.*


- I've encountered more angry 6w7s than I can count (many of them 8 fixed) and yes, their energy was still quite cerebral, reactive and nervous. anger does not replace fear. whether one reacts via fight or flight, both are reactions to fear and, in the case of 6w7 where their fear is more externally apparent, that fear is still obvious even in the most intense fits of rage (I don't want to downplay the 6w7's rage, sometimes it's downright terrifying and I'd take the more predictable rage of an 8 any day of the week, but the fact remains that that fear is still present and easily noticed during these moments). 
- this tendency is even apparent online when a 6 makes a defensive post (not referring to your post in particular, you actually seemed more annoyed than defensive). underlying this defensiveness is a lack of trust in one's own judgment. the person disagreeing makes the 6 question if they are indeed correct followed by the 6's legendary projection coming in and viewing the dissenting view as a threat that must be extinguished. to a more discerning individual however, this underlying fear is easily sniffed out. 
- more accurately, anger in the counter phobic 6 is like a layer that is placed over the underlying anxiety which can be easy/difficult to discern based on other factors (wing, other typology factors, confidence, non type related factors etc)


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

bearotter said:


> Am I sensing that the misunderstandings you perceive are marred by your impression of the poster's character, and not guided by a deep understanding of the poster's internal workings?
> 
> I hope I'm wrong as well.[/COLOR]


That you are. Keep in consideration that this issue what you'd like to downplay as "vocabulary" is something that has been evident as a pattern if you go back in her history. It is not as innocent as you think, and that is what I came here for in the first place. It's the subtle misinterpretations and misunderstandings that are born from these seemingly 'innocent vocabulary issues', and they spread out insidiously so. 

You are exactly doing that thing that I put down the warning sign for. You're not seeing it, or not choosing to see it, I don't know. It's fine. It's a sign for me that I'm wasting my time.

Ciao.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - I've encountered more angry 6w7s than I can count (many of them 8 fixed) and yes, their energy was still quite cerebral, reactive and nervous. anger does not replace fear. whether one reacts via fight or flight, both are reactions to fear and, in the case of 6w7 where their fear is more externally apparent, that fear is still obvious even in the most intense fits of rage (I don't want to downplay the 6w7's rage, sometimes it's downright terrifying and I'd take the more predictable rage of an 8 any day of the week, but the fact remains that that fear is still present and easily noticed during these moments).
> - this tendency is even apparent online when a 6 makes a defensive post (not referring to your post in particular, you actually seemed more annoyed than defensive). underlying this defensiveness is a lack of trust in one's own judgment. the person disagreeing makes the 6 question if they are indeed correct followed by the 6's legendary projection coming in and viewing the dissenting view as a threat that must be extinguished. to a more discerning individual however, this underlying fear is easily sniffed out.
> - more accurately, anger in the counter phobic 6 is like a layer that is placed over the underlying anxiety which can be easy/difficult to discern based on other factors (wing, other typology factors, confidence, non type related factors etc)


See, some years ago I would get worked up over this. In all I'm just immensely annoyed. I don't find you a threat, why would I, but I can still get into anger over things like this. It's about me internalizing the feeling that you are trying to tell me how my experience with counterphobia is, and it's infuriating. It's still a projection, but it's based in the feeling of someone telling me something over my head. It's about pushing back, and you with the 8 fetish, my father is one and if I could get him to back down on being controlling as a young teenager I don't really see you as someone that is going to provide much resistance if I actualy did try to push against you.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I agree with the distinction you make between 'unloved' and 'alienated'. On the other hand, Four (alienated) desintegrates into Two (unloved), so there is a certain relation or overlap between the two affects. You probably can find a song where both are united in one feeling tone.
> 
> By which I mean to say, if this isn't easy sometimes for an adolescent or mature to discern or be aware of in one's own current emotions, to what extend can you expect a young child to be able to differentiate between the two? I wonder, can you even be really aware of an emotion, if you don't have a word to discern it with? I think I was 12 or 13 when I first heard the word 'alienation'.
> 
> I think in arguing so, you project your mature apperception to the psyche of a young child, which strikes me as a bit odd. I agree with @_bearotter_ what matter's most, is how someone experiences and apperceives a situation. (and how it develops over time) I know from meditating practice, there are a lot of experiences in childhood that were left unprocessed just because I was too young to grasp it, and in some cases didn't even know whether to laugh or cry.


It's hard for me to believe that you cannot read what's between the lines. But alright.

Does one really need to have learned the word 'alienation' in order to feel it? No. It's just a word that most kids don't get to learn about until they're older, but that doesn't mean they're not feeling it. And the fact that adults at times have difficulties discerning emotions, doesn't mean kids must have the same difficulties. If anything, they're not as affected by their personality structure yet as adults. Maybe kids at certain ages don't have the vocabulary yet to vocally distinguish 'unloved' and 'alienated'. But one doesn't need these words, nor a certain age, to be able to feel them.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

eyenexepee said:


> I think I am, thank you. It's all sweet that you have good intentions to clarify one thing and another, but really, what I quoted is a good point to have reasons to distrust your understanding and discernment. Of course everybody is free to be productive and write a long ass post about misconceptions. I have no problems with that. I'm just being productive by putting down a warning sign for people to be a little critical. They don't have to put knives and forks on the table the same way they're being told to.


You're being ridiculous. People make mistakes or ponder different things when they're first learning. By digging up the OPs old posts, all you're proving is that he once was a novice.

No one is born knowing everything, and the nature of growth is to experience discomfort and make mistakes. 

What the OP did not know at one time in NO WAY discredits his knowledge today; in fact, it is only proof that the OP has been seeking to truly understand enneagram for a respectable period of time.

Take @simulatedworld for example. He is a very respected person when it comes to Jungian function theory on some forums; however, if you dug way back into Sims posts from four or five years ago, he thought function theory was crap.

Now he knows more about it than 95% of people on MBTI forums, and helps other people learn about it.

Just because he did not trust or understand the theory several years ago doesn't make him less knowledgeable now.

What a ridiculous straw man to pull on someone. "Well before you went to college, you had never taken these courses, so your degree four years later is meaningless."


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Inguz said:


> See, some years ago I would get worked up over this. In all I'm just immensely annoyed. I don't find you a threat, why would I, but I can still get into anger over things like this. It's about me internalizing the feeling that you are trying to tell me how my experience with counterphobia is, and it's infuriating. It's still a projection, but it's based in the feeling of someone telling me something over my head. It's about pushing back, and you with the 8 fetish, my father is one and if I could get him to back down on being controlling as a young teenager I don't really see you as someone that is going to provide much resistance if I actualy did try to push against you.


 @_Swordsman of Mana_ is correct.

8s act on offense and 6s act on defense.

This means that 6 anger is rooted in anxious defense of one's own position, the fear that they may proven wrong, or that other people won't understand how correct they are, 6s are out to prove their position, and that springs from an anxious place. 

I am a 6w7. The 6w7 is The Buddy, and that archetype or persona comes from the fact that the 6w7 DOES seek the external sources of security, the friend, the lover, the social group, the family, the church, or the political doctrine. The 6w7 seeks either allies or experts to back up his or her opinion, allies if an immediate group, experts if following an external belief system. 

Even this post you made here sounds like you're trying to prove something, like you're trying to prove how tough you are or something. 

The more the 6w7 evolves, the more they can calmly assist in building their community, or being a positive force for their group or cause, with a greater sense of internal security, so they become less and less reactive; the 6 is still community or group identified but less reactive, the 6 integrates at a more zen-like 9...but the zen is probably the result of finally finding a truly reliable external force that they can internalize, I've experienced that with my yoga practice. I can't internalize being a Democrat or having a boyfriend, but I can internalize my yoga practice, so I've relied on an external belief system, but it's something I can internalize to build a secure sense of self, not something I have to seek desperately outside of myself in an insecure anxiety if faced with a threat. It's something that can actually build real self-reliance and inner calm. One of my mantras is "I am safe wherever I go".

Yes, it's annoying for people to accuse you of being upset just because they see you type yourself as a 6, if you know you aren't upset, but you're actually saying here that you're angry, and are talking about pushing against him.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> It's hard for me to believe that you cannot read what's between the lines. But alright.
> 
> Does one really need to have learned the word 'alienation' in order to feel it? No. It's just a word that most kids don't get to learn about until they're older, but that doesn't mean they're not feeling it. And the fact that adults at times have difficulties discerning emotions, doesn't mean kids must have the same difficulties. If anything, they're not as affected by their personality structure yet as adults. Maybe kids at certain ages don't have the vocabulary yet to vocally distinguish 'unloved' and 'alienated'. But one doesn't need these words, nor a certain age, to be able to feel them.


Can you please stop the ad hominem? Thank you.

It seems to me in that case you are merely trying to mold reality to the theory by reinterpreting 'how I felt, even though I didn't know yet the word or it's significance'. 

So it's easy to say 'When I was young I felt alienated'. From personal experience I only realised how disconnected or unrooted I was, when I became rooted. 

Or for instance, my mother was emotionally restraint, with no emotional expression or physical contact, or intimacy. It's only when you find that intimacy, that you realise that you had missed that all the time. (not particularly related to enneagram btw). 

So I agree that you can feel the emotion, but often we seek for an explanation for what we feel, or how to solve it, but it requires that someone is aware of it and can make all the connections and inter-relations which are often pretty complex. And I doubt that for instance someone unhealthy is able to recognize or oversee all that, know what is relevant and what is not in this (type) perspective and that's what you seem to expect. 

How you explain it sounds textbook to me (having all the answers, great!), not how we experience life. A lot of behaviors are also coping strategies, that actually can be counterproductive, like envy (you mentioned that). But it took me a while before I learned that (even to become aware of it) and got rid of it, by changing a maladaptive coping style for a better one. Without Enneagram theory by the way.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

fourtines said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_ is correct.
> 
> 8s act on offense and 6s act on defense.
> 
> ...


Most of this I wrote about a few pages back. I'm just looking for things to get angry about.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

fourtines said:


> The more the 6w7 evolves, the more they can calmly assist in building their community, or being a positive force for their group or cause, with a greater sense of internal security, so they become less and less reactive; the 6 is still community or group identified but less reactive, the 6 integrates at a more zen-like 9...but the zen is probably the result of finally finding a truly reliable external force that they can internalize, I've experienced that with my yoga practice. I can't internalize being a Democrat or having a boyfriend, but I can internalize my yoga practice, so I've relied on an external belief system, but it's something I can internalize to build a secure sense of self, not something I have to seek desperately outside of myself in an insecure anxiety if faced with a threat. It's something that can actually build real self-reliance and inner calm. One of my mantras is "I am safe wherever I go".


That's interesting. Do you also have a corresponding yoga position? 
From meditation I know Abhaya Mudra (Fearlessness)












​


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

fourtines said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_ is correct.
> 
> 8s act on offense and 6s act on defense.
> 
> ...


Most of this I wrote about a few pages back. I'm just looking for things to get angry about.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

fourtines said:


> @_Swordsman of Mana_ is correct.
> 
> 8s act on offense and 6s act on defense.
> 
> This means that 6 anger is rooted in anxious defense of one's own position, the fear that they may proven wrong, or that other people won't understand how correct they are, 6s are out to prove their position, and that springs from an anxious place.


Im just not sure about this. In some ways its true and in others its kinda off the mark or blown to another proportion. I agree we act on defense because we have something that is worth fighting for, there is authenticity in that. To continue to fight a case though when you are blatantly wrong, it would surely be more hazardous to keep flogging a dead horse or just to defend a weak case even just to prove you arn't wrong, thats pretty dangerous and I do see this sort of thing with the more immature, unhealthy types. However, for those that stick to their guns could suggest the loyalty factor to their values, more specifically, values surrounding security. Values in themselves offer security and how well the 6 can defend those values is down to their intelligence, passion, dedication amongst other things. But proving their position can be one factor in sustaining their security, it doesn't have to be but it can be, the 6 will adapt to whatever needs to be done in the name of danger and threats. Again, you are right in some respects but its not always the case or the only case. It depends on how big the threat is also and when values are threatened that the 6 is loyal to, the can produce some pretty impacting and sometimes devastating action, the 6 will go on attack like the 8 but its because they have something worth fighting for but the type of fear you explained spawning this action is still vague. Personally, its an action designed to cause the most damage with one single move and using stealth tactics which yes is derived from fear. So to end that, its not always about the 6 not wanting to be proven wrong for the reasons you have described, if a 6 is scared of being proven wrong, its probably because, a) concerned about losing others support b)they have strayed from their beliefs. But proving themselves is probably more of a health/immaturity level thing. Not all 6's are actually that insecure to admit they are wrong. Just my two cents.

Edit: On further thoughts, I realise I wasn't completely sure if you were describing 6's in general or unhealthy or healthy, admittedly due to this reason, I even wandered if I was a 6 but I am confident I am. So, I suppose it boils down to the lack of specifity or not stating clearly because there obviously is a big difference between a healthy and unhealthy type just in how otherwise healthy traits become maladjusted.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

lycanized said:


> What you posted for 5 actually seemed more 6w5 to me, I haven't read this whole thread, so I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned that yet


Yes. I actually see a lot of cp 6 in some of this, actually... like:



LeaT said:


> Early last summer, I met a guy who quickly developed a crush on me. At first I let it be because he was a nice guy and I invited him home. Lazy as I am, I had not done the dishes and I think this guy is a 2 fixer somewhere, because his immediate response was to do my dishes. *A power battle ensued as I kept telling him that I was fine because I felt like he was trying to control me. I can manage on my own, all that. *It's hard to probably separate exactly what is 5 and 8 think specifically here, I think both played a role in how 5 self-sufficiency kicked in with the 8 need for autonomy, although I think a 5 with a non-8 fix would probably have fussed less overall about this situation than I did. *I felt manipulated and controlled and I didn't like it as it made me extremely uncomfortable (I think the better word is vulnerable).* I invited this guy into my home, the very place few people are allowed to set their foot into, (I'm still very sp 5), and *the first thing he does when inside is trying to control me and he can't let go when being told to.
> 
> *I could probably have reacted more strongly against what I found to be this intrusion, but I was very clear on that I didn't want him to do it. Yet he insisted and eventually I gave up and played along with his game. I'm still a 5, not an 8. Now, what happened afterwards I am uncertain how I'd attribute it regarding enneagram think, but I suppose more 8 than 5, because I rejected him hardcore after I analyzed what I thought was the best solution to take. I now only have very brief contact with him but haven't seen him face to face in probably over 6 months. He was clearly a person not to be trusted if he cannot respect my space and boundaries even after being told to. It doesn't matter how nice he was, but I hate feeling controlled and he tried to do just that.


How did anyone miss the very obvious CP6 in this post? Feeling attacked and controlled because someone was *offering to wash the dishes*. That's not 8 at all, and I'm baffled that no one pointed this out. 8s are never SO attuned at attempts of control, not like CP 6s are. It's a completely different focus and mindframe - the paranoia is not present whatsoever.

So much for someone who has supposedly learned to read past stereotypes. 8 isn't about control or being controlled, and they aren't vigilantes, ready to jump and bite at any sudden movement. My close friend is a cp 6 and my SO is an 8 - their differences are so obvious it's painful. And I can tell you, if someone came into our house and offered to do our dishes, neither of us would protest much. My cp 6 friend on the other hand? She doesn't even let ME in the kitchen.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> That you are. Keep in consideration that this issue what you'd like to downplay as "vocabulary" is something that has been evident as a pattern if you go back in her history. It is not as innocent as you think, and that is what I came here for in the first place. It's the subtle misinterpretations and misunderstandings that are born from these seemingly 'innocent vocabulary issues', and they spread out insidiously so.
> 
> You are exactly doing that thing that I put down the warning sign for. You're not seeing it, or not choosing to see it, I don't know. It's fine. It's a sign for me that I'm wasting my time.




I'm aware vocabulary issues can represent misunderstanding. I'm also well aware what you were warning against. 

What I am trying to tell you is that you're more likely to correct any potential misunderstandings by engaging directly what subtleties you see that can easily be missed than by claiming that any particular instance represents such a misunderstanding. By doing the latter, you make claims that actually may not even be true, even if your goal was ultimately to promote better understanding.

I'm not going to be so pigheaded that I deny someone's character flaws would have nothing to do with potential flaws of intellectual judgment. My point was quite different, that _even if_ there were character flaws, and even if there was misunderstanding resulting, the exact and precise things I showed you that you responded to did not establish them. 

And that is the unfortunate side of the approach you took. I'm not here to tell you whether you character attacked or not, but rather to tell you that you're only ultimately furthering lack of clarity in your frustration, and it's sad because you clearly know a fair number of things about enneagram and I'd guess can promote clarity much more successfully by alternate means.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> So much for someone who has supposedly learned to read past stereotypes. 8 isn't about control or being controlled, and they aren't vigilantes, ready to jump and bite at any sudden movement. My close friend is a cp 6 and my SO is an 8 - their differences are so obvious it's painful. And I can tell you, if someone came into our house and offered to do our dishes, neither of us would protest much. My cp 6 friend on the other hand? She doesn't even let ME in the kitchen.


I have some follow up questions. 

What if your SO invites someone home, and this person starts removing furniture, even when your SO repeatedly asked to leave it? He wouldn't mind? 

If you think he does, where does he draw the line? (e.g. Dishes ok, taking remote control no) 

Can you be stubborn with him and completely ignore his wishes? 

Also, what health level do you estimate your SO?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_Doll_

lol. That's the problem with convoluted anecdotes and having a loose grasp on theory.

That was so much more 6w5 (cp) than core 5 in a post aimed at explaining what the 5 fixation is all about.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Boss said:


> @_Doll_
> 
> lol. That's the problem with convoluted anecdotes and having a loose grasp on theory.
> 
> That was so much more 6w5 (cp) than core 5 in a post aimed at explaining what the 5 fixation is all about.



No. thats not the problem. Thats the solution. People tell you exactly who they are when you ask them to tell you an anecdote. I can't tell you how many people will claim to be X type because of their perceptions of their motivations, but when you ask them to describe exactly what happens the truth will come tumbling out. :laughing:


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I have some follow up questions.
> 
> What if your SO invites someone home, and this person starts removing furniture, even when your SO repeatedly asked to leave it? He wouldn't mind?


She. And I fail to see what this has to do with anything I said. 



> If you think he does, where does he draw the line? (e.g. Dishes ok, taking remote control no)


Again, fail to see the logical connection. 



> Can you be stubborn with him and completely ignore his wishes?


Who are you talking about? 



> Also, what health level do you estimate your SO?


Does it matter? 8s have the same motivations, fears, and vices regardless of health level. You still see the 8 underneath it all.



Boss said:


> lol. That's the problem with convoluted anecdotes and having a loose grasp on theory.
> 
> That was so much more 6w5 (cp) than core 5 in a post aimed at explaining what the 5 fixation is all about.


I agree. I don't know many 5s in general, but none that I know could relate to that description.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Doll said:


> Yes. I actually see a lot of cp 6 in some of this, actually... like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can say the way she felt and the way she handled it was CP. If it were me, I'd dislike the intrusiveness of it all. I wouldn't feel controlled, I'd find it obnoxious to have someone all up in my nut and cracking it.

Anyway, I hadn't gotten a chance to respond to the post but you beat me too it. Cheers.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I can say the way she felt and the way she handled it was CP. If it were me, I'd dislike the intrusiveness of it all. I wouldn't feel controlled, I'd find it obnoxious to have someone all up in my nut and cracking it.
> 
> Anyway, I hadn't gotten a chance to respond to the post but you beat me too it. Cheers.


I'd be embarrassed about someone else cleaning up my dirty dishes, but that's about it... so far, no one's been able to actively control me by use of everyday chores, so I wouldn't see a threat there.


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## Grau the Great (Mar 2, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I can say the way she felt and the way she handled it was CP. If it were me, I'd dislike the intrusiveness of it all. I wouldn't feel controlled, I'd find it obnoxious to have someone *all up in my nut and cracking it*.


You know, I've never heard anyone use that phrase before.

But that said... my goal for today is now to work that into as many conversations as possible.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> She.


Ah, she, excuse me, I forgot. 

You made 'offering to do the dishes' bold, so I wonder does it matter? Is it a 'dishes' thing? Or a 'kitchen' thing? Or an 'I asked you to leave it, please' thing? 

Personally I would make a difference if someone's invited for the first time, or someone I know. But apparently for 6 it doesn't make a difference. And kitchens especially, of course. This is about kitchens.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Grau the Great said:


> You know, I've never heard anyone use that phrase before.
> 
> But that said... my goal for today is now to work that into as many conversations as possible.


I see an opportunity for a drinking game.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Now I do not think core 8's inherently would generally display their aggression at things like the washing dishes encounter, since as @_Dark Romantic_ states, there is considerable emotional deadening.

Although this is of course tritype theory, so when we speak of one type, we speak of the others and their relative order. I would point out that there are many reasons the aforementioned encounter regarding dishes could have occurred, and that type 2 is a powerseeking type, I could easily in a theoretical sense see emotions arising from the image type _indirectly_ interplaying with the others to produce such a reaction, whether or not 6 is present as part of the head type. And it seems it was acknowledged in said description that there are very possibly strong additional influences, so one might conceivably ask what these were.



Doll said:


> I'd be embarrassed about someone else cleaning up my dirty dishes, but that's about it... so far, no one's been able to actively control me by use of everyday chores, so I wouldn't see a threat there.




Understandable. I'd guess you possess relatively less distaste for type 2 powerseeking than some do, of levels probably more similar to mine.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

bearotter said:


> Understandable. I'd guess you possess relatively less distaste for type 2 powerseeking than some do, of levels probably more similar to mine.


I don't really feel as though someone has power over me if they wash my dishes, so I think it's more a situation where the attempted "powerseeking" is completely lost.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> I don't really feel as though someone has power over me if they wash my dishes, so I think it's more a situation where the attempted "powerseeking" is completely lost.




For me too; one thing is there are instances where powerseeking can be attempted and held in distaste despite ultimately being unsuccessful.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

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bearotter said:


> For me too; one thing is there are instances where powerseeking can be attempted and held in distaste despite ultimately being unsuccessful.[/COLOR]


No, I'm saying that I wouldn't even see it in the first place.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> No, I'm saying that I wouldn't even see it in the first place
> ​




Yes I realized that, I was commenting that there are two distinct definitions of whether or not something is power-seeking, one of which you commonly adopt and which is not satisfied, and another one which is less dependent on the threat you did or did not perceive in the action.

Your definition is perfectly reasonable, and so is the other one. One must just book-keep which applies where of course.​


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Wow I didn't know that this was the "hey we're going to point you out as a mistype" thread because there is no way in hell that you are an 8 or 8 fixer. 

But that aside, thank you @Dark Romantic for sharing your insights on type 8.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mushr00m said:


> Im just not sure about this. In some ways its true and in others its kinda off the mark or blown to another proportion. I agree we act on defense because we have something that is worth fighting for, there is authenticity in that. To continue to fight a case though when you are blatantly wrong, it would surely be more hazardous to keep flogging a dead horse or just to defend a weak case even just to prove you arn't wrong, thats pretty dangerous and I do see this sort of thing with the more immature, unhealthy types. However, for those that stick to their guns could suggest the loyalty factor to their values, more specifically, values surrounding security. Values in themselves offer security and how well the 6 can defend those values is down to their intelligence, passion, dedication amongst other things. But proving their position can be one factor in sustaining their security, it doesn't have to be but it can be, the 6 will adapt to whatever needs to be done in the name of danger and threats. Again, you are right in some respects but its not always the case or the only case. It depends on how big the threat is also and when values are threatened that the 6 is loyal to, the can produce some pretty impacting and sometimes devastating action, the 6 will go on attack like the 8 but its because they have something worth fighting for but the type of fear you explained spawning this action is still vague. Personally, its an action designed to cause the most damage with one single move and using stealth tactics which yes is derived from fear. So to end that, its not always about the 6 not wanting to be proven wrong for the reasons you have described, if a 6 is scared of being proven wrong, its probably because, a) concerned about losing others support b)they have strayed from their beliefs. But proving themselves is probably more of a health/immaturity level thing. Not all 6's are actually that insecure to admit they are wrong. Just my two cents.
> 
> Edit: On further thoughts, I realise I wasn't completely sure if you were describing 6's in general or unhealthy or healthy, admittedly due to this reason, I even wandered if I was a 6 but I am confident I am. So, I suppose it boils down to the lack of specifity or not stating clearly because there obviously is a big difference between a healthy and unhealthy type just in how otherwise healthy traits become maladjusted.


Actually I'm describing a mid-level 6. Not so "unhealthy" that they're agoraphobic, paranoid, having panic attacks, or self-destructing through crazy risks; mid-level 6s are the most reactive. You can look up health levels and yes, the mid-level six is a very reactive person. The level 123 are high level, 456 are mid-level, 789 are the lowest and most unhealthy. The level 6 resembles an angry 8 the most, which is what the person I was responding to was describing. "I am angry." Yes, the mid-level/level 6 E6 (haha that's a lot of 6!) sees enemies and defends their position staunchly, which can create an angry or extremely polarizing appearance. And this is the place, around mid-level 5 or 6, where the 6 resembles the 8, but is defensive rather than offensive.

Most "normal" people hover between the high and mid-levels, no one is perfectly level 1 mature or healthy 24/7, and you may go through a period of life where you range between 4-6, and get older or work on integration and range between 2-4 or 5, with occasional visits to the perfectly integrated level 1.

Also, those of us who are counterphobic are a lot more assertive than phobic 6s.

Even the E6 Managerial Orientation is described as "Reckless, Protective of Inner Circle, Ally." Weaknesses are "Inferiority, Over-Reacting, Masochism."

The counterphobic may be more likely to overreact and the phobic may be more masochistic? IDK.

Also, a stressed or unhealthy 6 (and a "healthy" or average 6 can still get stressed or have a bad day...) disintegrates at 3, becoming more concerned with winning and how they look to other people, so then they have more of an "image" to protect at that point. Thus the defensive behavior, being concerned about their image to others. They show "bad" or weak traits of a 3.

Then the "healthy" six is more supportive, autonomous, and non-aggressive like a high level 9, because they are more secure. They show "good" or strong traits of a 9 (not the evasiveness or avoidance or inner deadness or detachment from self). 

A counterphobic 6 is not less healthy than a phobic 6, but will relate more to being defiant. 

I don't mind admitting I'm wrong, but when I've been stressed or insecure I have had a hard time with it. 

So I appreciate what you're saying, as a 6 gets healthier they'll choose their battles better, but I was responding directly to his claims about his anger.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mimesis said:


> That's interesting. Do you also have a corresponding yoga position?
> From meditation I know Abhaya Mudra (Fearlessness)
> 
> 
> ...


No. I sometimes say it to myself in savasana but I also do it as a visualization mediation with the root chakra, so sometimes do it in a sitting position. 

Thanks for sharing this!!


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

@fourtines
Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Yep and of course when im falling down the health levels, im more vunerable to falling in to an avoidance of being wrong because my internal state just becomes more fragile and less stable. Makes sense.



> I don't mind admitting I'm wrong, but when I've been stressed or insecure I have had a hard time with it.


And yeah, this goes back to the health level thing, I do get like this eventually myself when pushed too far, my mind becomes overwhelmed and thus a lot more erratic, I don't get like it often but it can happen and I can see the push to 3 when it happens - being concerned about appearing to others that you arn't wrong coz in that way when you are seen as wrong, you are concerned people don't trust your perception. I just think these days, im integrating to 9, well in some respects, its a good feeling, like your mind is peaceful enough to perceive things clearly rather than a confuzzled mess, ha!
Thanks for explaining the confusion.


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## Fallen Nocturne (May 13, 2012)

I used to think I was a 584 pretty much entirely based on the stereotypes listed. This was before I knew much about the Enneagram and how 5, 8 and 4 are all types which are rather romanticised, so I was extremely worried when I found out how popular they were. Now I'm too afraid of the enneagram! I'll fill out a questionnaire one day... maybe.

Enough about me; interesting thread about stereotypes! The 5 one in particular is one I thought needed addressing. After deciding to stick to observing others type themselves, the number of people who think "Oh, I'm smart. Type 5." is frankly rather worrying.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mushr00m said:


> @_fourtines_
> Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Yep and of course when im falling down the health levels, im more vunerable to falling in to an avoidance of being wrong because my internal state just becomes more fragile and less stable. Makes sense.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insights as well. It's always good to clarify that this stuff has to do with stress or health levels, that a 6 is not reactive 24/7 or for their entire life...lol.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Thanks for your insights as well. It's always good to clarify that this stuff has to do with stress or health levels, that a 6 is not reactive 24/7 or for their entire life...lol.


:wink:Yeah, its pretty important this health level stuff gets mentioned,keeps things in better perspective. 2 6's can look very different to each other that are on opposite ends of health for example. Cheers for your insight aswell, yar its good to know that we arnt these constant, crazy neurotics :laughing:


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## Vanguard (Dec 22, 2009)

If someone came to my house to wash my dishes, that would be great. I'd book them in and allocate times for when they can swing round, and while their at it they can vacuum, mop the floors and take out the trash. It's win/win, either they get overwhelmed and back off, or actually do the chores. Oh and since they volunteered of their own accord, they better do a good job of it. None of this "it's free so don't complain" bullshit, you either do it right or don't stick your nose where it don't belong. 

I know I hate feeling wrong, or questioning my own judgment. But if I'm unsure about it I have to eliminate all doubt, I do this with realizing it. I'd rather put myself out there, get beaten up a bit because once my position is clear I can use this to knock off any opposition, so any potential ground that was taken is given back. It's not knowing or being confused that gets to me, as I can't move without feeling like I've got it. It doesn't have to be the whole picture, just the gist is enough to get going, but I won't engage till that is there.


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## voicetrocity (Mar 31, 2012)

This thread has seriously turned into talking about who lets who do their dishes.

-looks side to side- 

Toto, I don't think we're in a personality forum anymore.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

voicetrocity said:


> This thread has seriously turned into talking about who lets who do their dishes.
> 
> -looks side to side-
> 
> Toto, I don't think we're in a personality forum anymore.


Lol nope. Find a pair of ruby red shoes to take you back to one, perhaps?

And who cares who washes dishes as long as the job gets done? I mean I'm not seeing the issue here.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Inguz said:


> See, some years ago I would get worked up over this. In all I'm just immensely annoyed. I don't find you a threat, why would I, but I can still get into anger over things like this. It's about me internalizing the feeling that you are trying to tell me how my experience with counterphobia is, and it's infuriating. It's still a projection, but it's based in the feeling of someone telling me something over my head. It's about pushing back


it's good you're aware of this



> and you with the 8 fetish, my father is one and if I could get him to back down on being controlling as a young teenager I don't really see you as someone that is going to provide much resistance if I actualy did try to push against you.


ok



> Most of this I wrote about a few pages back. I'm just looking for things to get angry about.


then look elsewhere, I don't have a lot of patience for venting and implied belligerence.


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