# Does Fi make someone naturally unhelpful?



## Sir Awesome (Aug 1, 2013)

Alright, so:

I was looking more into how Fe and Fi contrasted, and the major consensus was that Fe likes to help people where Fi likes to help themselves.

I didn't entirely agree with this, because I LOVE to help people and make them feel better. Many times I value the emotions and physical states of others above myself: it just makes me feel better to do that. Though (and this could be what I'm not understanding) I'll only put my emotional needs behind those that I really care about. If I were to meet someone who gave off... umm... "Meany-pants vibes" I would do nothing to try to help them. Though, I do believe that I'd willingly give up my life instantaneously if it were for someone that I found a respect for, or someone who gave off "amazingly kind and wonderful vibes."

Does this mean that I'm not Fi dominant because I like to help others more than myself? Or am I being misinformed on something?


Thanks!


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

No.

My INFP friends like helping people. I know for one of them it is a core value. Sometimes that one friend gets upset with himself because he knows he shouldn't help others in certain situations, but the feeling that drives him to help anyway is much stronger. It overrides his thinking.

MY ENFJ girlfriend on the other hand, might not be helpful in certain situations because it is not socially acceptable to do so. Then I get mad at her for not doing it anyway regardless of what society says. Her response is almost always "gotta preserve that social harmony..." She used to say this even before I taught her anything about MBTI.

The point is that helping others does not directly correlate with Fe or Fi.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

I don't think Fi makes someone naturally unhelpful. ISTJs seem helpful enough in talking about things they are experienced with if you ask them, and ENTJs seem eager or at least direct about it enough.

As for Fe... cooperation and seeking to make others happy need not be the same thing. I'd consider cooperation as helpfulness, while seeking the happiness of others as... potentially a temporary sort of reprieve from suffering.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

The whole "Fi is selfish" idea is stupid & unfounded. 

NFPs are actually more empathic thinkers than FJs. 

Feeling in general is not about being nice or emotional. It's rational evaluation - or assigning value judgments in relation to the human condition. The difference between them is how the evaluating is done. Fe uses external criteria - social values, consensus, etc. It's more classically "judging" in that it's about applying decisions more than defining terms. Fi uses internal criteria - building a system of ideals off the internal human experience. It's more about unearthing & defining concepts of value than assigning them or applying them in reality. 

This doesn't mean that Fi doesn't "help" but such people tend to help more with emotional/spiritual issues within people rather than practical aid, but since it's also not in a bubble, Pe attitudes easily connect our value concepts to opportunities & ideas of how to meet them in reality. So from there we certainly can not only help people, but be flexible & creative about it too.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

I think INFPs that I've known tend to give sooo much of themselves that they neglect their own needs, and yet they still end up being so hard on themselves. I'll give of myself in the sense that if you want someone to give you emotional assurance or something like that I'm always there, but I find with FPs it's a lot of actual doing things for people and spending time with them, stuff like that.


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## shakti (Oct 10, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> The whole "Fi is selfish" idea is stupid & unfounded.
> 
> NFPs are actually more empathic thinkers than FJs.
> 
> ...


What you say about emotional/spiritual issues vs. practical ones has been so true in my experience, and this is where I clash with Fi users the most. I prefer when love is expressed through actions, not words...what is very important for me is knowing I can depend on someone. I can get very hurt when someone doesn't want to do something important for me because it doesn't "feel right" :-\


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

I think Fi is the "always there for a friend" type if they are normal. Otherwise, I don't know if I'd assign a propensity to help people to a trait other than.. Si, maybe? Unhelpful, I couldn't say, but I wouldn't say Fi is unhelpful. Maybe the thinking functions cause more scrutiny of tasks one is getting involved in, and indirectly lead to helping less. Dunno.


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

Selfish Fi? 

Well... one can want to help others because you relate to what they are going through or sympathize with how it sucks.

To needlessly demonize such a simple and natural act of kindness seems... kind of twisted, really.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Sir Awesome said:


> Alright, so:
> 
> I was looking more into how Fe and Fi contrasted, and the major consensus was that Fe likes to help people where Fi likes to help themselves.
> 
> ...


I think that the problem with Fi is that it has a harder time understanding the other person's needs. It's not from a lack of desire to help or reach out, but that it misinterprets what is needed/wanted, and misses the mark. I think this is especially true when values clash, such as Fe vs Fi or, if the perceptive realms don't match (Se vs Si or S vs N). Also, I suspect that there are differences between SFP and NFP types, wherein NFPs will want to help in more abstract ways--bigger things, and SFPs in more concrete, material ways. I also guess that STJs and NTJs also would respond differently, as their thinking judging function is in control... 

Also, as I think on this, I think of how vulnerable I frequently feel. Fi at the top seems to be very vulnerable. With people I don't know, and from whom I get those "meany pants" vibes will get nothing out of me. But if someone else shows vulnerability, I'm all over them to help them, even if my T tells me I'm being scammed. ;-) Also, if someone close to me seems to be attacking me, even inadvertently, I will find myself reluctant to reach out to them. I may even find myself retreating from them for a period. In such cases, I suppose this would also lead to people perceiving me as unhelpful. 

But mostly, I suspect that the people who think Fi is unhelpful are probably people who think with Fe values... There are some areas that just clash between the two.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Can't speak for others, but I'm pretty unhelpful yes. =P


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

No. That's not what the functions are about.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> Can't speak for others, but I'm pretty unhelpful yes. =P


I'm glad to yet witness some honesty in PerC. All positive adjectives to your person should come from others! You can have a clue, but it's up to others to determine if you're being helpful or just annoying and obtrusive. roud:

Way I see it is that Fe is really more about cooperation and "go team!" mentality. Fe-users help others when they can see that there are direct benefits to this, such as donating to a cause, because of wanting to help, but equally as much because it gives them the honest right to say that they are not hypocrites, but actually contributing to help a cause. Another example would be to buy a free round of drinks at the bar for the friends, because Fe-user believes that positive gestures will keep the friends happy and festive!

Fi is much more ego-based than Fe in that manner. Fi works on subjectively sentimental level. Fi-user would buy a free round not really because of keeping their friends happy, but because they feel sincerely positive towards these friends at this given night, and believe that a positive gesture like this maintains the positive disposition of others towards the Fi-user. 

In simpler words, Fi-user's positive gestures have certain strings attached to them, like "I buy a free round, so that you in particular can see that I am a nice person." Fi-user might be oblivious to the improvements in the mood of those friends, but in their heads, it's like "My expression of good will has been delivered. If they are not glad to accept, at least I know it's doesn't have much to do with me. If they are glad, that means I did something right today!". I haven't noticed Fe-users to have these kinds of strings attached to their positive gestures other than "Hey, here's some beer to you! Cheer up now!"

I would even go as far to say that the really helpful, fighting for a cause kind of people are more likely to be Fe, since Fe is more focused on how the gesture affects the other party, and less focused on what kind of implications trace back to themselves upon making the gesture.

One real-life example was where I was completely baffled when my INTP friend bought a free drink to a random bum on the street, with an explanation that "he is one of us, the human being like you and me. Why not give our fellow countryman a lil something to drink?" I know this explanation was not the actual reason, but still, when I would approach a stranger with a positive gesture, the "he's one of us" would be the very least of my reasons. Even "he's just a really cool guy" would rank much higher!


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## pmj85 (Jul 31, 2010)

Nah.

I'm Fe, and I'm a right grumpy / unhelpful git. Some Fi users I know are the complete opposite.


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## Obedear (Jan 31, 2014)

KraChZiMan said:


> In simpler words, Fi-user's positive gestures have certain strings attached to them, like "I buy a free round, so that you in particular can see that I am a nice person." Fi-user might be oblivious to the improvements in the mood of those friends, but in their heads, it's like "My expression of good will has been delivered. If they are not glad to accept, at least I know it's doesn't have much to do with me. If they are glad, that means I did something right today!". I haven't noticed Fe-users to have these kinds of strings attached to their positive gestures other than "Hey, here's some beer to you! Cheer up now!"


I disagree that Fi users have strings attached to their positive gestures. You're basically trying to say that Fi is selfish without saying that Fi is selfish. And as was already discussed, that is a stereotype that is not necessarily true. 

Being an INTJ my Fi is only a tertiary function, but when it does manifest itself and does so in the form of doing something kind or helpful for someone it's not to get something out of the other person. If an opportunity presents itself to do something helpful for someone I respect, then I will take it. Not because I want to show them what an awesome and helpful person I am. Just because I want to do something nice for the sake of doing something nice for someone I respect. It's an internally driven decision based on how I feel, yes, but it does not have to be selfish simply because it is driven from within. Both Fi and Fe can be selfish or selfless.

For an example of selfish use of Fe, I've experienced an Fe user using their Fe social prowess for subtle manipulation in an attempt to ensure a situation would turn out the way they wanted it to.


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## mirrorghost (Sep 18, 2012)

i also disagree that Fi users have strings attached to positive gestures. i think it's often the opposite actually. i may not be an outpouring of sunny, positive emotions outwardly, but to those close to me i have sacrificed my own time and energy to listen and/or give advice. in fact, just last night one of my best friends called me with a relationship problem, and she was very upset. i had a difficult day yesterday and all i wanted to do was go home, zone out and have some wine, dinner and watch a movie, but i knew she needed to talk so i talked to her for much of the evening. i didn't do it for brownie points, i did it because i care about her, i've been in similar situations and i felt empathetic to her situation. i also feel that i have a knack for that kind of thing, and i know i would want someone to talk to if i was in a similar situation.

this is from the "INFP relationships" page here: Portrait of an INFP
_The INFP does not devote their intense feelings towards just anyone, and are relatively reserved about expressing their inner-most feelings. *They reserve their deepest love and caring for a select few who are closest to them.*
_
i think that sometimes Fi users avoid conflict, but i do not think that's the same as being nice for self-serving purposes. avoiding conflict is often for self-preservation and protection.


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## Kathy Kane (Dec 3, 2013)

I see Fi as more, _how would I like to be treated._ 

For me, I don't like people helping me, unless it's something I can't do, I don't have enough hands, or they are specialist at it. Otherwise, I can just do it myself. So when I see other capable people doing something, I figure they don't need my help. 

For example, I'll visit someone and they will start doing the dishes, and I never just think to help them. They're an adult and have probably done the dishes thousands of times, why would I help them? I wouldn't want, nor expect anyone to help me. It's only through observing social norms of pitching in that I would actually choose to help them. 

Fi isn't my highest functions so that might be why I view it that way. I'm sure there are people with Fi who would want other people to help them in that situation and they would jump right in and do it.


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## 6007 (Feb 12, 2010)

Speaking from Fi dominants I know, they are quite helpful and kind people. One INFP friend in particular likes being needed, in fact.
Even those with tertiary Fi can be greatly helpful (INTJ, for example), many of them using their insight to help others come to greater clarity or understanding, for example. (Some users on this forum come to mind.)
Fi may not appear as outwardly warm, but appearances and warmth are not that important. So for example my ISTJ husband is inscrutable, and even though as an ISTP I'm supposed to have a poker face, I am positively "splashy" by comparison.
However, my ISTJ husband will run around town doing things for people, helping them meet their needs. I do not do such things with the regularity he does, and I use Fe, albeit in the inferior slot. But he values getting things done, and as such his actions include helping others get things done.

Basically, when it comes to such topics like "helpful" vs "not helpful" I think we're talking about what the helpful person values. Do they value being helpful? In what parameters do they feel comfortable showing this helpfulness/how does it manifest/does society or do other people recognize the help given? An Fe user might not value being helpful in the sense of running errands for others, but might be very willing to provide a big shoulder to cry on (or the other way around). There are many ways to be helpful, and many people are helpful, even if they don't recognize it in such terms.


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## Xenograft (Jul 1, 2013)

Firstly, this post may contain boasting, so you're going to have to deal with that. Secondly, I do not think that the extent to which someone is helpful is heavily influenced by Fe or Fi, I think it has more to do with someone's core values, but I suppose that could mean Fi as well. Sure, an Fi dom who is more guarded and less willing to share themselves with people is likely to be less helpful in general, but if an Fi dom (myself) puts it upon themselves and holds helpfulness as greatly important. For me it's a very pertinent value, even if I get nothing out of it. Quite honestly I feel no warmness or pleasantness from helping others, it usually gets me nothing in return, but I do it because if I don't I feel uncomfortable. It's actually quite selfish at its core, my helpfulness, but I am greatly disturbed by people who are being cheated, scammed, treated improperly or unfairly, and I do my best to extend my hand to others to resolve conflicts and solve problems. I've always been a problem solver, and somewhat of an instigator. If I think that the only way a problem can be rectified is if I stimulate a conflict then, despite how upset it will make me in the moment, I will facilitate an argument or conflict of some sort in order to right what I think is wrong, which is the root of my initial stress. Ultimately it's to make myself feel less bad, but not good. 

Of course, Fe doms can be equally helpful, but I feel as though it's less personal and more general. They help in general ways, I think, but that doesn't make it worth any less than an Fi user's helpfulness. @Nubb is a really helpful ISTP, which is odd because he comes off as very cold, but he's probably more "appropriate" in his helpfulness than I am. I tend to come off as pretty abrasive sometimes, and I never bullshit anyone, I give it to them straight, I think he'd probably be a bit more tactful. That isn't to say that I cannot exhibit tact, I will sometimes hide myself and my opinions from others for fear of sparking an argument, but I am very sincere, I rarely ever joke around with people and my opinions. Sarcasm is not my strong suit. But, right, back to the helpfulness thing, that was the main point of this post. 

I think Fi can be more personal, but probably a tad less driven unless helping that person means a lot, and Fe is more general and probably more driven. Any thoughts on that? I don't know if I'm talking out of my ass here or not. 

PS. An example of personal helpfulness: one night I was driving home from work and I passed a homeless woman and her dog who had a sign that read "Dreaming of cheeseburgers." I thought it was funny, and I was troubled by how defeated she looked, her shoulders were sagging and I felt this sinking sensation in my chest, it was almost painful. My mother had baked me a batch of cookies, so I went home (since I couldn't stop to hand them to her, and I wasn't sure if I had enough confidence to do it yet), got the bag, fought with myself internally for a few minutes, and then walked the half mile to her to hand her the bag. I didn't feel good afterwards, but that heaviness in my chest lifted and I felt relieved. It's kind of hard to explain.


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## VioletEvergarden (May 10, 2011)

Hi. I'm Nubb.

Sent from my SPH-D710BST using Tapatalk


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm only speaking for myself here. There is a fine line between helping others, and enabling others. I will backup and support people who take the initiative to help themselves first. I will not do the work for them. Fe seems to be more helpful in my humble opinion, they will go beyond the call of duty to help those regardless of the situation. Sometimes this help is not asked for, or needed, and it can make me feel like the person is pushy, or smothering. My Fi places value on people, and how I would want that value placed if I was in the same situation. I don't want people to help me unless I ask for help, It feels very intrusive , please don't force your help upon me unless I directly tell you I need it.


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## Kathy Kane (Dec 3, 2013)

Sparky said:


> Circumcision makes people apathetic and easier to anger, and considering how many people are circumcised in the United States (might be as high as 80% for the pre-90s generation), it is easier to equate Fi with being unhelpful.


So basically you are claiming that about 80% of men in the US are apathetic, easy to anger, and unhelpful. Your argument isn't Fi specific, it would include every type, as long as they are male and circumcised.


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## walkingpastdeadpretense (Feb 17, 2014)

How the heck did this discussion take a turn like this?? 

Nice thread. It really gave me some stuff to think about and helped me understand my ENFJ best friend who I clash a lot with to do with being nice to others... I know I can come off as selfish to her.


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## meghanenfj (Dec 21, 2013)

ferroequinologist said:


> My ENFJ daughter tells me that... I don't get it. She's crying? It's my fault, and she refuses to admit it? She acts like she's not really bothered, but she's crying... Is this you too?


Exactly me!! Tears just come and go, whether or not is a big deal, I cant really control it


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

Kathy Kane said:


> So basically you are claiming that about 80% of men in the US are apathetic, easy to anger, and unhelpful. Your argument isn't Fi specific, it would include every type, as long as they are male and circumcised.


As being eastern-european, I don't really get the whole deal about wide-spread circumcisions in US. It's not a jewish, or even catholic country, as most of the "your average american christian families" seem to follow protestant church (otherwise there would be this thing where religious authorities like popes and patriahs have the final say amongst the god-fearing part of the population). Could some american care to enlighten me on the issue?


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## Kathy Kane (Dec 3, 2013)

KraChZiMan said:


> As being eastern-european, I don't really get the whole deal about wide-spread circumcisions in US. It's not a jewish, or even catholic country, as most of the "your average american christian families" seem to follow protestant church (otherwise there would be this thing where religious authorities like popes and patriahs have the final say amongst the god-fearing part of the population). Could some american care to enlighten me on the issue?


I bet you'd get some great responses if you started a thread about it.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

Kathy Kane said:


> I bet you'd get some great responses if you started a thread about it.


No doubt about it, but I am sure that other have had the same question before me, so I'd prefer to stumble upon an answer later on.


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## Oprah (Feb 5, 2014)

EDIT - took out a lot of my post because it was a little harsh/generalizing.
In short


Fe - EXTROVERTED FEELING - _"How will my actions/decisions impact others?"_
Fi - INTROVERTED FEELING - _"How do my actions/decisions impact me?"_

Kind of silly to take that at face value and make any sort of generalization.


but iirc Fe users have Ti, and Fi users have Te, meaning that someone who has Fi is going to be thinking about how they feel at the time.

Fe users are going to be thinking & internally processing information logically.



This is why Fe users are said to be "therapist" types - they empathize with other people really easily (i.e. INFJ/ISFJ are great at social work and stuff).

I don't really know what to say about Fi because it's not in my function stack


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