# Fighting Evil in Body Types: Rehabilitation vs. Eradication the difference of 1 and 8



## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

I've been thinking about the quandary between these two types and the difference between 8 and 1 when it comes to fighting against injustices and perceived abuses of power. I've come to the conclusion that while both 1's and 8's can act similarly in the dislike of persons abusing their power for cross purposes the difference comes from the way 1's and 8's view the actions and the person of someone who is acting against those who are less able. 

It's said that Ones focus more on the action itself and use language such as that is wrong, you shouldn't do that, etc. The focus of the evil is on the action. They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action. Ones believe that people are good people, they just need to know the way to be good. Ones don't think of people as being bad people so much as they look at actions as being bad. Ones focus more on rehabilitation, they teach people the right way and focus on making people repent for their evil ways. In this instance when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly. Does this mean that One's are more forgiving then Eights by nature? Since Ones' see people as generally being good and that people generally are good people does that mean that Ones are more forgiving then Eights if those trespass and make efforts to change and become good? 

While Eights also are sensitive to people who disabuse of power I am thinking that Eights don't see things as abstractly as the Ones do. It seems from readings about vengence and anger that Eights see evil people as being purely evil or purely wrong and they must destroy that person in all ways because they truly do see people as being corruptible and unsalvageable beings. They do not believe in rehabilitating the evil that they see so they see the swift justice as completely destroying anything that could harm others innocence. The justice from the Eight comes from a deeply held belief that the world and the people in it are evil and that they must destroy those evil beings who aim to hurt them and others around them. When Eights see evil in their mist they do not think of it as the action being wrong but as their being something wrong in the core aspect of the persons being that is responsive to wrong or evil. There is no good in the person, they simply must be crushed and dismantled so that they are unable to hurt anyone. While One's may be tricked into giving the person a second chance, Eights lock that down and aim to destroy the being because they trespassed on the Eights view of what is right. There is no second chances for the Eight in this regard. The eight doesn't believe in rehabilitation because the being is fundamentally evil or impure. 

What do you guys think? Is this accurate? I've been trying to find a key difference in between these two types in regards to how they view right and wrong and how they respond to people that they see abusing power and fighting against their view of justice. Is this a key difference? Is the difference between the One and the Eight that the one is Sailor Moon and the eight is Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z?


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

Arrow said:


> It's said that Ones focus more on the action itself and use language such as that is wrong, you shouldn't do that, etc. The focus of the evil is on the action. They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action. Ones believe that people are good people, they just need to know the way to be good. Ones don't think of people as being bad people so much as they look at actions as being bad. Ones focus more on rehabilitation, they teach people the right way and focus on making people repent for their evil ways. In this instance when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly. Does this mean that One's are more forgiving then Eights by nature? Since Ones' see people as generally being good and that people generally are good people does that mean that Ones are more forgiving then Eights if those trespass and make efforts to change and become good?


With a 1 wrong actions are considered undisciplined actions because they don't take the high ground which the 1 does, and harms the opinion of the target. If the person creates enough offenses then they're considered untrustworthy, undisciplined, dishonorable or corrupt. The action is linked to an intent, and against a standard of the 1. Problems can be fixed in order to preempt the true ire of the 1, so 1s find themselves guiding others actions often.

I think the question of negative or positive view of humanity issue is complicated, and I don't really know how to approach it.


8s appear to be less philosophical about their understanding of injustice than other types, and more reactionary. 1s are the philosophers of the Enneagram if there ever was one given the title, particularly the 1w9. EI's study shown that 8s are more outspoken than 1s also, but they're both the top ranks in this category. I think this is because 8s take are rather forcefully independent and speak up when someone is guiding their destiny, and 1s may not be so bold until they're certain of their position and the occurrence.


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## a space whale (Jul 12, 2011)

One (ha!) minor correction, though it might be an issue of language more than meaning:



Arrow said:


> They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action. Ones believe that people are good people


I don't have any concept of a deep-seated "kernel" to a person, good or bad. Actions are a complex mix of circumstances and incentives in addition to their character. Also, people are not static, they can learn and change -- but again, change depends also on circumstance. 

Also it goes both ways -- no one is infinitely good. People can fall and become corrupt from any height.

The core idea though


> when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly.


I think that's spot-on. A running theme through my life when dealing with "troubled" individuals, is that they continue to behave poorly and make short-sighted decisions because people begin to treat them as though they expect the individual to screw up. Kids act up again and again because their parents become increasingly suspicious of their actions; adults slip into deprived lives partly because they get treated as junkies well before you could legitimately pin the title on them.

So maybe that is the difference in itself -- 8's sense some core evil in a person and react accordingly.



Wake said:


> 1s may not be so bold until they're certain of their position and the occurrence.


Yeah, and in the context I'm building here, I don't think I have the right to criticise someone until I have at least some theory as to _why_ they ended up that way, and (perhaps more importantly) how for example, they should have handled things in the past instead. 

Once that path is clear though, all gloves are off and a 1 probably ends up looking a lot like an 8.


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

a space whale said:


> I don't have any concept of a deep-seated "kernel" to a person, good or bad. Actions are a complex mix of circumstances and incentives in addition to their character. Also, people are not static, they can learn and change -- but again, change depends also on circumstance.


I think undisciplined and untrustworthy harms respectability and perhaps a poor intention in there than place them into the corrupt label. Some people can be taught, but not all want to.

I agree with the rest. If people want to change and admit past wrongdoings than it is easy to simply put such issues aside.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

I think some actions are good, others bad. I think sometimes good people do bad things, and I know bad people sometimes do things that appear to be good.

I understand very well that some people are just evil and they do evil things because they're evil.

Some people can be rehabilitated, others can't.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

a space whale said:


> A running theme through my life when dealing with "troubled" individuals, is that they continue to behave poorly and make short-sighted decisions because people begin to treat them as though they expect the individual to screw up. Kids act up again and again because their parents become increasingly suspicious of their actions; adults slip into deprived lives partly because they get treated as junkies well before you could legitimately pin the title on them.
> 
> So maybe that is the difference in itself -- 8's sense some core evil in a person and react accordingly.


I'm no core 8, but I've explored the possibility of an 8 _and _a 1 gut fix. This explains a lot of things to me. Once I see someone behave in a way that I deem unjust or unfair, I cannot go back to seeing them as a good person, *ever*. My good opinion of someone, once lost is lost forever. I judge people by how they behave and definitely not on the circumstances; I think I'm incapable of saying "Oh, he just did this because ___ happened". So if someone were to behave a certain way, I attribute this behavior to their personality and it just sticks. 

Looking back, I've seen friends of mine befriending someone who once wronged them, and it used to *infuriate* me that they'd go back to trusting someone and letting them into their lives.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Arrow said:


> It's said that Ones focus more on the action itself and use language such as that is wrong, you shouldn't do that, etc. The focus of the evil is on the action. They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action. Ones believe that people are good people, they just need to know the way to be good. Ones don't think of people as being bad people so much as they look at actions as being bad. Ones focus more on rehabilitation, they teach people the right way and focus on making people repent for their evil ways. In this instance when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly. Does this mean that One's are more forgiving then Eights by nature? Since Ones' see people as generally being good and that people generally are good people does that mean that Ones are more forgiving then Eights if those trespass and make efforts to change and become good?
> [...]
> What do you guys think? Is this accurate? I've been trying to find a key difference in between these two types in regards to how they view right and wrong and how they respond to people that they see abusing power and fighting against their view of justice. Is this a key difference? Is the difference between the One and the Eight that the one is Sailor Moon and the eight is Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z?


I don't know about Eights, but I know myself and I'm a One.

It's too sharp through the bend, as a Dutch saying goes, to consider someone evil, or only her/his action as such, or even both... Context is so important, whether situationally, culturally etc. I've studied a little bit of ethics and there are many ways to come to decide whether something or somebody is good or bad, devilish or holy, etc.

I don't know if other Ones think like you said they do, but I'm definitely someone who believes that people, at their core, are good. No, let me rephrase that. I *want* to believe people are good at their core. I want to see people as persons who can be free of corruption and evil because they 'have it in them' to be so. I want to see people as persons who have the potential that just needs some training, cultivation, stimulation, encouragement, etc. I think I want to see people like that _so badly_ that I believe they're good. 

In my mind however, I'm well aware of this longing. I don't kid myself. I do give people the benefit of doubt, but I'll be rational about it. If need be I'll go with "three strikes and out" or other measures. Meaning, I'll forgive a couple of times but there is a limit. I keep in mind that I may be interacting with someone who's... Not 'good' at her/his core. Granted, there are little people whom I've suspected to be so. 

It is not so much about what's evil and what is not, whether it's about the person, intent, means, goals etc. Can we even really know the truth behind someone being/acting evil, ever? People can be saints and still have bad intentions, or sway to the power of some temptation. My rule is to look at each situation and each person on a case by case basis. I guess that sort of aligns with what @_a space whale_ is saying. 

As for forgiveness: I'm not a saint. I haven't been tested that much but I don't think I've got an unlimited amount of mercy. I will push myself to forgive... But in my heart, I may still harbor resent and I won't forget.

As for 'rehabilitation', as @_Wake_ said, but in different words: you can lead a horse to the water but you can't make it drink.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

eyenexepee said:


> I don't know if other Ones think like you said they do, but I'm definitely someone who believes that people, at their core, are good. No, let me rephrase that. I *want* to believe people are good at their core. I want to see people as persons who can be free of corruption and evil because they 'have it in them' to be so. I want to see people as persons who have the potential that just needs some training, cultivation, stimulation, encouragement, etc. I think I want to see people like that _so badly_ that I believe they're good.
> 
> In my mind however, I'm well aware of this longing. I don't kid myself. I do give people the benefit of doubt, but I'll be rational about it. If need be I'll go with "three strikes and out" or other measures. Meaning, I'll forgive a couple of times but there is a limit. I keep in mind that I may be interacting with someone who's... Not 'good' at her/his core. Granted, there are little people whom I've suspected to be so.


This is the heart that I wanted to get at, ultimately One's rage comes from more or less a feeling of frustration or love at it's heart. "Why aren't you better? If you were better every thing else could be better." 

They are concerned with people being better because they put more emphasis on actions, "this is how you are good or right". Where as it looks like the Eight's rage comes from a kind of hurt anger or hatred against the actual beings that cause harm or pain to those who are weaker. They perceive the person as truly being evil at their core and this means that the Eight doesn't forgive as they feel something inside the person is unforgivable and needs to be stomped out. There is nothing to fix because there is something essential wrong within the person. The only way to fix the situation is to completely destroy or disable the person until they have no power or recourse left to hurt others. The Eights version of justice is annihilation or destruction of the evil to preserve the goodness of others and not hurt the innocence of others.

Eights have no problem repaying evil with evil because the individuals themselves are evil and they don't deserve mercy because they have already forfeited just by being who they are. One's could be this way too but it seems as if they have a higher tolerance before this level is reached. They seem to be more forgiving if the person tries to rectify their actions and repent for them because there is a greater focus on the act being evil, not something being directly wrong in the person.


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## illicit iridescence (Dec 31, 2011)

Arrow said:


> This is the heart that I wanted to get at, ultimately One's rage comes from more or less a feeling of frustration or love at it's heart. "Why aren't you better? If you were better every thing else could be better."
> 
> They are concerned with people being better because they put more emphasis on actions, "this is how you are good or right". Where as it looks like the Eight's rage comes from a kind of hurt anger or hatred against the actual beings that cause harm or pain to those who are weaker. They perceive the person as truly being evil at their core and this means that the Eight doesn't forgive as they feel something inside the person is unforgivable and needs to be stomped out.


I think you're on the right track but I think it's too easy to 'stamp' Ones as people who put more emphasis on actions. Just because I'm saying I like to believe that people are good doesn't mean I put emphasis on actions - as I said, there are many ways to determine what was the right thing to do, or what was the lesser evil of two evils. Context remains important. Good vs evil is often more complex than we'd like it to be. Unless we're talking pure evil or something.

Perhaps it's true that Eights don't differentiate much between acts of evil and beings of evil. I'd like to believe that any sane woman or man does differentiate, really.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

I definitely believe any type on the whole could rationalize their feelings and create theories about justice and moral ambiguity, what is right and what is wrong. I'm mostly just trying to distill the motivations behind these two types and find the core differences between the two and how they differ in terms of general instincts. On this level I think this may be the difference, but I am trying to see if others agree or disagree with it.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Arrow said:


> I've been thinking about the quandary between these two types and the difference between 8 and 1 when it comes to fighting against injustices and perceived abuses of power. I've come to the conclusion that while both 1's and 8's can act similarly in the dislike of persons abusing their power for cross purposes the difference comes from the way 1's and 8's view the actions and the person of someone who is acting against those who are less able.
> 
> It's said that Ones focus more on the action itself and use language such as that is wrong, you shouldn't do that, etc. The focus of the evil is on the action. They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action. Ones believe that people are good people, they just need to know the way to be good. Ones don't think of people as being bad people so much as they look at actions as being bad. Ones focus more on rehabilitation, they teach people the right way and focus on making people repent for their evil ways. In this instance when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly. Does this mean that One's are more forgiving then Eights by nature? Since Ones' see people as generally being good and that people generally are good people does that mean that Ones are more forgiving then Eights if those trespass and make efforts to change and become good?


Personally, pretty much none of this applies. I don't see people as ineherently good, and I don't view them as removed/separated from their actions (ie. the action is bad but the person behind it is good). 

I'm not a rehabilitiation person. You fuck up in areas you shouldn't and it's over. As @kaleidoscope mentioned, my good opinion, once lost is gone forever. 

Forgiveness is a tough road for me. I am not naturally a forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, but I don't forget either. 



> While Eights also are sensitive to people who disabuse of power I am thinking that Eights don't see things as abstractly as the Ones do. It seems from readings about vengence and anger that Eights see evil people as being purely evil or purely wrong and they must destroy that person in all ways because they truly do see people as being corruptible and unsalvageable beings. They do not believe in rehabilitating the evil that they see so they see the swift justice as completely destroying anything that could harm others innocence. The justice from the Eight comes from a deeply held belief that the world and the people in it are evil and that they must destroy those evil beings who aim to hurt them and others around them. When Eights see evil in their mist they do not think of it as the action being wrong but as their being something wrong in the core aspect of the persons being that is responsive to wrong or evil. There is no good in the person, they simply must be crushed and dismantled so that they are unable to hurt anyone. While One's may be tricked into giving the person a second chance, Eights lock that down and aim to destroy the being because they trespassed on the Eights view of what is right. There is no second chances for the Eight in this regard. The eight doesn't believe in rehabilitation because the being is fundamentally evil or impure.


On the other hand, I don't agree with this either. This One/Eight dichotomy you present is so damned black and white (I'm normally a black&white sorta gal, but this is a little much) that it's pretty much unrealistic.



> What do you guys think? Is this accurate? I've been trying to find a key difference in between these two types in regards to how they view right and wrong and how they respond to people that they see abusing power and fighting against their view of justice. Is this a key difference? Is the difference between the One and the Eight that the one is Sailor Moon and the eight is Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z?


I don't really exert the effort to identify whether someone is evil or not. I simply see the action that needs to be taken against them. I don't dwell on how their action makes me feel. I just see the steps needed to resolve the problem, whether that's jail time, community service, or the death penalty.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this answered everything you were looking for. Feel free to ask whatever questions you'd like in response.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Marlowe said:


> Forgiveness is a tough road for me. I am not naturally a forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, but I don't forget either.


I'm the same. I don't hold onto things and harbor hate/resentment, but I can't go back to seeing the person the same way I did before they wronged me.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm the same. I don't hold onto things and harbor hate/resentment, but I can't go back to seeing the person the same way I did before they wronged me.


Hm are you still thinking 4-6-8??
I personally believe that kind of attitude is more eight-like. because eights have a wall up but those who gain access are given a certain amount of trust. I kind of view the eight attitude like... I don't know, a warrior in a tribal land. Honor, friends, ties, those are important, but so is surviving and protecting your territory. So if someone sells you out to the next township, you're probably going to have to cut off their head and have to harden yourself so you don't feel sorry about it. It's a pemenantly aggressive way of being to protect yourself because you were taught your innocence will not be protected and you have to fight back because no one will fight for you-- so if someone makes it in, it is very scary and also means it will be apporached on conditions of trust, a contact to ensure you are not betrayed "We're friends and we got eachother's backs." Screw that up, there is no reason to forgive, only a weak person you can't have in your life because it mirrors early betrayl, so the eight hardens back up and forces that person out of the soft part of them.


To the OP, I think eights concern with abuse of power is precicely that: an attuned interest to the dynamics of power. Ones superego is telling them, "You have to do the right thing, make things better" but an eights superego is tellign them, "You have to be strong so the big bad person/thing can't ever get one over on you again." The sense with eights is when they were young or weak, someone took advantage of them, and they lose innocence-- now they are always on guard, ready to fight, not ready to be vulnerable, so the sense is of constant vigilance to imblances of power or the powers of those who would seek to oppress or control you. If an eight sees an abuse happening, yes, I suppose it is less "abstract" as in, "I must do this for the overall good" or, "That's how people should behave". I don't think eights really care 'How" people should behave, they enjoy breaking rules. Instead, the abuse is seen, even if against somenoe else, as being perpetrated by the unreliable, unfair authority that the eight has learned to fight against. They want to topple that authority. A healthy eight rises to the plate to protect others, bceause with their strength they can use it to take others under its wing, but an average eight is probably really self-serving with their concern of power and who has it. However, eights also want to protect innocents because they are NOT innocent anymore-- they had to close off that part of themself to be strong. So if they see a situation where someone has an advantage over a weaker person and is abusing their power over that person, an eight sees back when they were small and they had to be tough, and why they became strong. They became strong so they could get back, so this would never happen to them. The aggressor they see becomes the same as the nameless "unfair authority" that they've faced their entire life, and it is the eight's job to even the score.. they aren't going to let someone get one over on them. Ones are concerned with morality, eights are fine-tuned to power dynamics. I think it has as much to do with the pleasure of toppling over or stopping someone abusing power as protecting the victims of it. Once they've helped the innocent, they want to help them become strong like they did, to teach them to fight for themself so they won't have to be a victim anymore (I think mostly be example, maybe some tough love style).


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

@adverseaffects

Yes, I am still considering 468 but also 478 - not really sure, I'm still exploring. ^^


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## Steel Magnolia (Apr 10, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I'll address your post line by line.



Arrow said:


> It's said that Ones focus more on the action itself and use language such as that is wrong, you shouldn't do that, etc. The focus of the evil is on the action. They believe the person themselves are good people they just need to do the right thing and then they can become good as well. The evil is not apart of the person. The evil is apart of the action.


I do focus on peoples' actions, yes. I think a person's actions are more important than their thoughts, honestly. As for the language, yes, you had better believe I use the word "wrong" as well "reprehensible" whenever I watch documentaries about violent criminals, for instance.

As for separating out the action from the person, that really depends on the gravity of the action. I personally believe that people are redeemable, but only to a certain point. So, certain actions, such as child abuse, rape, pedophilia, serial murder, etc., make a person irredeemable in my eyes. If someone does one of the above, then I believe a certain line has been crossed. When that line has been crossed, I see a more than just a reprehensible action. I see a subhuman. I can't even call them human. I could not care less if society perpetually condemns them, and I believe these "persons" should be punished in the highest form of the law (I'd prefer the death penalty for such crimes).




> Ones believe that people are good people, they just need to know the way to be good. Ones don't think of people as being bad people so much as they look at actions as being bad. Ones focus more on rehabilitation, they teach people the right way and focus on making people repent for their evil ways.


I believe in rehabilitation until one of the above mentioned actions has been committed. I do like seeing people admit to their mistakes and take responsibility for them. But like I stated, once a certain line is crossed, then the action corrupts the person. That said, not everyone is a violent criminal, and not everyone draws the line there. It depends what your personal value system is. My focus is on not physically hurting people, and not causing harm to begin with. For others, their sense of wrongdoing may be based on religious beliefs, and depending on the belief and the person holding it, it may not take much for a person to be "condemned" or "hellbound."



> In this instance when the One is in a middle of the moral tirade they can be assuaged if the person admits to their wrongness, repents for their evil ways and acts to rectify the situation properly. Does this mean that One's are more forgiving then Eights by nature? Since Ones' see people as generally being good and that people generally are good people does that mean that Ones are more forgiving then Eights if those trespass and make efforts to change and become good?


Not necessarily. I think a lot of Ones have difficulty letting go. I have a very hard time forgiving, and I wouldn't be surprised if other Ones did, either (at least, that is the impression I'm under). When you struggle with resentment, like I do, it can be damn near impossible to let go. But I think this depends on the individual 1 and individual 8 in question.



> While Eights also are sensitive to people who disabuse of power I am thinking that Eights don't see things as abstractly as the Ones do. It seems from readings about vengence and anger that Eights see evil people as being purely evil or purely wrong and they must destroy that person in all ways because they truly do see people as being corruptible and unsalvageable beings.


Not an 8, so I can't comment on that.



> They do not believe in rehabilitating the evil that they see so they see the swift justice as completely destroying anything that could harm others innocence. The justice from the Eight comes from a deeply held belief that *the world and the people in it are evil *and that they must destroy those evil beings who aim to hurt them and others around them.


The part I bolded sounds more 1 than 8, to me. As for the destruction part, I am not sure how 8s would typically feel about that, seeing as I'm not an 8. I think anyone of any type could get angry enough to take on a view like that, if pushed past a certain limit.



> While One's may be tricked into giving the person a second chance...


I have been the recipient of some pretty nasty treatment in real life. I have not given those people second chances. Again, it depends if a line has been crossed. I don't think Ones are easily fooled, as a tendency.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

As I have said earlier, a One has a more entrenched/codified set of internal moral standards. It is important for the one to live up to these. Justice, intertwined, with fairness is a moral ideal to a One. A One is capable of feeling intense anger when seeing the abuse of innocence like an 8. But, unlike the 1, an 8 is not actively trying to live up their moral standards or an ideal of justice. 8s have a more visceral reaction to injustice (abuse of innocence [keep the vengeance-innocence dynamic in mind when it comes to 8s as its central to their stance on justice]). They react or respond to an injustice as its taking place in way that's very instinctive, and their sense of justice is far more simplistic than that of a One. It's why some would even go so far as to call it 'barbaric'- eye for an eye etc. Ones tend to theorize on matters of Justice much more often than 8s. But, it's entirely possible for an evolved 8 to see the pitfalls of an "eye for an eye approach", and it's all too possible for a One who feels morally justified (when the superego approves of such an action) in taking revenge in violent ways to approve of the "an eye for an eye mindset". So, it really is more complex of an issue than your post presents. It was good in parts, and I don't have the time to respond to it line by line or quote by quote so these are my general impressions and comments. I see it as too black/white.

Also, seeing the world in terms of strictly good/evil and corrupt/pure etc. is One rather than Eight. Eights view the world as a dog-eat-dog conflictual place. They don't view people as inherently "evil". Eights are very individualistic and the destruction of "evil", in a broader sense, is more a One theme. Misusing power to hurt the 8 or those they care for and/or view as innocent would result in feelings of vengeance, but it is not the 8 that is out to fight "evil" in the world. Again, that aligns more with the One's worldview of the world as a corrupt/potentially evil place. We ran into a bit of a problem on your thread where you took my words that 8s weren't fixated on right vs. wrong as implying that they simply had no sense of right or wrong. All adult humans, including the most rugged individualists among 8s, still have a sense of right and wrong. Is it as deeply entrenched in their belief system as that of a One? No. Are they resentful about the morally corrupt behaviour of others, as in is it a running theme in their life? No. Are 8s able to feel intense anger/rage at what may be considered immoral/harmful behaviour? Yes. Are they inherently reformist and believe in correcting immoral behaviours? No. They tend not to view things in moralistic terms or evaluating situations against their personal moral code (which is Type 1), but they are just capable of acting against perceived injustice because they have their own sense of integrity (not strictly moral propriety). If they see someone (they consider) innocent being taken advantage of, an 8 might be very quick to respond. 

As for black and white thinking, yeah 8s are usually more 'guilty' of being unable to see the "grey" areas. But, a fixated One may be just as black/white in their approach to evaluating people/events. So, it's important to look into core motivations etc. because, on the surface, there may be similarities that are emerging from divergent motivations. 

As a quick example of 8-ish morality, I will use Mohamed Ali's example. I was reading his comments on refusal to participate in the Vietnam War. And he said, "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... they never called me ******". This is a form of 8 justice. When they view someone as innocent, they are inclined to protect or at the very least not attack them. Ones usually have a much more nuanced sense of justice.

Lastly, the rehabilitative thing is just personal opinion. It's not really type specific. A One who highly values forgiveness will be more into forgiving people/taking a more rehabilitative approach. A One who cares little for giving people chances (whose moral code does not show a preference towards forgiveness) or who has been through extraordinary difficulties may as well be unforgiving after a line is crossed. It's not that only an 8 can be unforgiving and punitive. Several Ones can and do hold similar views as long as these are justified by their superego.


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## AphroditeGoneAwry (Jan 10, 2012)

Nice insight~ I'll have to ponder.


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

Marlowe said:


> On the other hand, I don't agree with this either. This One/Eight dichotomy you present is so damned black and white (I'm normally a black&white sorta gal, but this is a little much) that it's pretty much unrealistic.


Well this is mostly just a rough model composed of what I have learned about the types from Enneangram's website. One's anger stems mostly from frustration of the world not being better than it actually is, so there is a belief that things should and ought to be better then what reality represents them with. Where as the Eight's anger stems from the fact that they believe the world will hurt them if they aren't strong enough to defend themselves. Those are two very different mind sets and this thread was mostly created to find out the real differences between the two. 

Yes it may be a bit exaggerative, but that was kind of the purpose -- to find differences between the types in regards to injustice and actions taken against wrongness or evil as defined by the One and the Eight. As it's been expressed before on the first page with eyenexepee individuals are going to be more fleshed out then simply this outline. This was more just a broad and general theory to further differentiate them and I wanted to know if it had merit. 



> I simply see the action that needs to be taken against them. I don't dwell on how their action makes me feel. I just see the steps needed to resolve the problem, whether that's jail time, community service, or the death penalty.


So would you say that you believe in a flat rate of justice, with all actions and transgressions being treated the same with no regard to the circumstances? Or would you say that different circumstances can change the sentence? 



adverseaffects said:


> I personally believe that kind of attitude is more eight-like. because eights have a wall up but those who gain access are given a certain amount of trust. I kind of view the eight attitude like... I don't know, a warrior in a tribal land. Honor, friends, ties, those are important, but so is surviving and protecting your territory. So if someone sells you out to the next township, you're probably going to have to cut off their head and have to harden yourself so you don't feel sorry about it. It's a pemenantly aggressive way of being to protect yourself because you were taught your innocence will not be protected and you have to fight back because no one will fight for you-- so if someone makes it in, it is very scary and also means it will be apporached on conditions of trust, a contact to ensure you are not betrayed "We're friends and we got eachother's backs." Screw that up, there is no reason to forgive, only a weak person you can't have in your life because it mirrors early betrayl, so the eight hardens back up and forces that person out of the soft part of them.
> 
> The sense with eights is when they were young or weak, someone took advantage of them, and they lose innocence-- now they are always on guard, ready to fight, not ready to be vulnerable, so the sense is of constant vigilance to imblances of power or the powers of those who would seek to oppress or control you. If an eight sees an abuse happening, yes, I suppose it is less "abstract" as in, "I must do this for the overall good" or, "That's how people should behave"...Instead, the abuse is seen, even if against somenoe else, as being perpetrated by the unreliable, unfair authority that the eight has learned to fight against. They want to topple that authority...However, eights also want to protect innocents because they are NOT innocent anymore-- they had to close off that part of themself to be strong. So if they see a situation where someone has an advantage over a weaker person and is abusing their power over that person, an eight sees back when they were small and they had to be tough, and why they became strong. They became strong so they could get back, so this would never happen to them. The aggressor they see becomes the same as the nameless "unfair authority" that they've faced their entire life, and it is the eight's job to even the score.. they aren't going to let someone get one over on them. Ones are concerned with morality, eights are fine-tuned to power dynamics. I think it has as much to do with the pleasure of toppling over or stopping someone abusing power as protecting the victims of it. Once they've helped the innocent, they want to help them become strong like they did, to teach them to fight for themself so they won't have to be a victim anymore (I think mostly be example, maybe some tough love style).


Interesting about the idea of authority and Eight's molding others to their system and their images. I'll have to come back to this because an idea is just in a gestational stage. But this provides a different kind of insight then what I was previously thinking. How do you imagine a One would feel about authority? Would it differ much from an Eight? 



Boss said:


> They tend not to view things in moralistic terms or *evaluating situations against their personal moral code* (which is Type 1), but they are just capable of acting against perceived injustice because they have their own *sense of integrity* (not strictly moral propriety). If they see someone (they consider) innocent being taken advantage of, an 8 might be very quick to respond.


Could you elaborate further on how these are different? It seems that both the One and the Eight are focused on being true to themselves in this regard and I would just like a further declarative difference between personal inner code (internal values and morals) and integrity (being true and aligning actions to an inner belief system). I get that One's views are "for everyone" and Eight's views are "for themselves" but I am not seeing a difference in terms to there subjective views of justice.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

In an Enneagram sense, an 8's sense of "integrity" is more "loosely defined" so to speak. It would be best described as an awareness of right/wrong and ability to act in ways compatible with this awareness. A One's sense of integrity is more entrenched in their moral standards to which they strictly adhere. This would be the main difference. And yes, the terms are definitely similar. The difference is subtle in phrasing but presents in different motivations and behaviours (that may be either in common between the types or different depending on the individual and situation, which is why motivations are key), which I won't be regurgitating because I am sure you know what these are. @_timeless_ has also touched on the integrity thing in his 8 description. So, you might want to get his input on the subject as well. As for justice, at this time, I have nothing else to add besides what has already been said. 

And both 1s and somewhat higher functioning 8s can have "for others" outlook. Though yes, 8s being an id type are definitely concerned with their own needs, desires and wants first and foremost. They are more individualistic and self-centered than Ones.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Arrow said:


> Well this is mostly just a rough model composed of what I have learned about the types from Enneangram's website. One's anger stems mostly from frustration of the world not being better than it actually is, so there is a belief that things should and ought to be better then what reality represents them with. Where as the Eight's anger stems from the fact that they believe the world will hurt them if they aren't strong enough to defend themselves. Those are two very different mind sets and this thread was mostly created to find out the real differences between the two.
> 
> Yes it may be a bit exaggerative, but that was kind of the purpose -- to find differences between the types in regards to injustice and actions taken against wrongness or evil as defined by the One and the Eight. As it's been expressed before on the first page with eyenexepee individuals are going to be more fleshed out then simply this outline. This was more just a broad and general theory to further differentiate them and I wanted to know if it had merit.


I understand what you're trying to get at. But I believe your "broad and general theory" is simply too unrealistic in its assumptions to hold credibility in its questions.

To look at the One: you start with the premise that Ones use idealism to create two worlds in their head-- a fallen world (which comprises of actions) and a right world (which comprises of people at their essence). They then enact justice along the idea that both worlds are seperate from each other, and are only linked by mere coincidence when someone commits a "fallen" action.

This kind of absurdity assumes Ones lack the ability to understand human motivation. Or implies that they ignore it altogether. It removes the free will element out of the equation and jumps on the back of "they didn't truly mean it" as a solution/explanation to criminal problems. It essentially eliminates the individual (the criminal) out of the equation. After all, a person who is "inherently good" can never be fully responsible for their "evil actions."

Personally, I find that line of thought to be a gross exaggeration of the "idealistic nature" described in Ones. It assumes that Ones inherently "skip around" reality because they hope for something better. Sorry, but idealism is not a synonym for denial. 



> So would you say that you believe in a flat rate of justice, with all actions and transgressions being treated the same with no regard to the circumstances? Or would you say that different circumstances can change the sentence?


A mixture of both. I believe every child molestor should face a noose, but I don't think every thief should have their hand cut off.


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