# In general, what are your thoughts on formal education?



## PAdude (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm talking anything and everything, Pre-School through grad school, through the effects that it has on an individual throughout life. 

I'm pretty anti-formal education based on the way that the system works right now, but I'll chime in with my in-depth opinions more after a few people respond.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

While formal education has its uses, I generally think of it as a signaling mechanism. A way for people to make quicker judgements: He went to X school, so Y.

Although, outside of formal education, I don;t think there really are any systems that do a good job replacing it for a large society. Sure education needstinkering, but educating large amounts of people by its very nature will be formal.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

First and foremost it is a way of teaching people how
to be socially acceptable.

Secondly it is a way of making them jump through 
endless hoops so that they can only advance at
the rate of a snail professionally (so as not to 
catch up with their predecessors before they
are ready to retire).

Third, (College) is a way of gouging people for their
dreams.

But- DOESN'T MATTER, STILL A BETTER OPTION THAN
MOST.

Beggars can't be choosy.


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## Psychstix (Feb 20, 2012)

bellisaurius said:


> While formal education has its uses, I generally think of it as a signaling mechanism. A way for people to make quicker judgements: He went to X school, so Y.


 This is so true, I believe former education has lost its purpose, teaching people how to use the information you used in school and applying it in real life situations. Now in my opinion I feel that the education is now all based on numbers and prestige, no one really tries to teach this way anymore it is more like "Here are the answers for your next test, MEMORIZE IT" regurgitating information without using your senses to interpret the information is no good. *IE*: My IB A1 English Class is interpreting classics such as "A Christmas Carol" and "To Kill A Mocking Bird." Half the kids pay no attention and about one quater is mindlessly typing away and copying information without actually taking the time to analyze the information and the symbology or other kinds of literary devices that are being used.
Anyway my 2 cents, bash away if you like.


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## jd_ (Feb 5, 2011)

In a competitive world it is a way to say you are qualified to do something. A base level college education means you know certaitn things, and it often creates better citizens. However, I don't think paying for it is the answer... b/c it puts many people in debt. Too many companies now *require* a college education for basic jobs so, it is a catch 22.


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## Perspicacious (Feb 18, 2012)

It's more a socialization process than anything else. The most useful academic skill the average person walks away with is the ability to read, write, and perform basic arithmetic (even that can sometimes be quite marginal). This seems to be the case for the United States public education system, anyhow. Like Psychstix, I note the inability of the average person to take the skills they should have "learned" in school and apply them in real life situations (or even hypothetical situations outside of the original context of the material).

I think there is a romanticized notion of education, and then what education actually "is." Primarily, formalized education was only created to serve the purpose of filling a need for a slightly more skilled working class post-industrialization. While the kind of workers that are needed today has changed, the education system hasn't. It does somewhat have a preparatory facet, in that there are a number of jobs which will require perseverance through monotonous tasks while being heavily supervised, ranked, and rated. In that sense, school can be considered a boot camp for the average office environment - complete with social jostling. 

As much pomp and circumstance as we might attribute to it, to glorify education, the average person is not educated for the sake of being educated. It fulfills a very specific purpose, which is why it was ever government funded. That purpose was never to create a critically thinking populace, but a moderately competent work force to bolster the economy.


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

College is overrated. I think they should skip the gen ed and just have you take what you need for a specialization. Less school, less loans, less crap. 

The first 2 years of college was mostly like high school so I don't see the point of it. It expands your mind somewhat but you could do that on your own. 

I don't think students should jump into college either until they really know what they want to specialize in. And by specialization I mean a particular field. Like marketing/advertising/journalism/english/communications are all related. But to major in anything and then go into anything just seems a bit off lately.

And I also think colleges should offer more classes that give the skills employers want. It's ridiculous the disconnect between college and employers.


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## Listener (Jan 13, 2011)

School is primarily obedience training. I recommend the work of John Taylor Gatto for understanding the education system.

Or, even better:


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

Retarded. I put value on intelligence, but I think there is a blind value put on just pure knowledge. Like it makes you a better person, a person with a better brain. Intelligence is predisposed. A unique mind is something you're born with. Knowing how some chemistry book says chemical compounds and elements and whatever the fuck else work does not mean you have a special mind at all, anyone can read it. Secondly, there is blind value placed on school as the only thing that can provide knowledge. Its interesting to learn things, its wonderful to be curious and also to be able to synthesize information in a brilliant way. But school is not the only place to do that, thats a very limited and ignorant view. People who are actual 'knowledge seekers' and perhaps thinkers will do it on their own. Not to mention school would give you a working education as well as filter information and what you need to get through ot the higher levels of education. The point of school is not to learn, it is to prepare you to be a nice little worker to provide something to the community and the economy. If you want to know, school is not where you go to 'know'. And I believe knowing and thinking are personal endeavors. Learning is not the function of a school at all and Im baffled by the ignoramuses who dont realize that. Who ignorantly suggest school as -the- definition of intelligence, smarts, value, intellect. You can't be taught how to think, you have your own mind. You can't be taught how to immerse yourself in your own perception of reality and you can't be taught how to form a unique view of anything or anyone. I think for certain individuals, learning basics at something like a school for any subject might be useful, just very basic elemtns. But otherwise, I dont know what the point of having a certain form for some things is rather than exploring. Im really anti school for myself...If someone actually wanted to learn, theyd try and find a book, otherwise school is just being spoonfed and lazy and not a seeker of much at all. It really pisses me off when people correlate education level and performance with intelligence and smarts. You need an average level of intelligence to do well. You need an average level of intelligence to do well in this society in general. Its a sign of nothing more than work ethic. Some might think Im biased because I actually have an immensely crappy work ethic. I dropped out of high school, I havent even gotten my GED yet, but Im going to college and getting crappy grades. I have the inability ot put myself into something meaningless to me, but Im stuck here for a couple of years even though I know Im not using my education for anything nor would i use a university education if I transfered out.


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## geekofalltrades (Feb 8, 2012)

The formal education system (at least in the US, where I have experience with it) is a crock of shit. At the very least, middle school needs to be reformed into something that isn't 2-3 years of psychological torture. Seriously, _everyone has a shitty time in middle school._


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

Listener said:


> School is primarily obedience training. I recommend the work of John Taylor Gatto for understanding the education system.
> 
> Or, even better:


George Carlin is pure unadulterated, fantastically perceptive honesty. Brilliant stuff.

It's true though and not just for the USA, it goes for most countries where there is a formal method of education.
It's all about training people up to be/think/feel and ultimately live their lives in a certain way. Essentially it isn't about producing people it is about producing clones, who go out, work, spend and then die, to make space for the next set.

To be fair there isn't anything new I can I say about this and the things ive mentioned are pretty cliche by today's standards.

However I do feel like expressing a great dislike for the methods involved in breaking into higher education as well. The evaluations used to prove whether or not you are, (essentially)' worthy of going to a particular university, are almost always based around credential's.
Obviously I understand why to an extent, since universities and colleges are nowhere near as exclusive as they used to be, a lot of them rely on a method of 'send us a letter with your CV and qualifications' rather than an interview on a one to one basis to find out whether or not this person actually has a passion or intelligent insight for what they want to study.

Unfortunately, I did rather poorly at 6th form, primarily because I couldn't get along with any of the other students and this took it's toll on me in the form of stress, but also because ive always been able to recognise, quite clearly, that most standardised tests are merely passed by giving the answers the examiners want to hear, rather than anything that offers an intelligent, insightful or unique view that is different from the norm.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Oddly enough, my Middle School educational experiences were some of the best ever in my school career, since I had some great teachers that actually paid attention to the smart and talented students, but high school was a "politically correct" cesspool in which most of the teachers pandered to suck ups and those with the most community service credentials, which should be irrelevant in the scheme of education (since no one even learns community service in school, normally, nor do they need to), while the smart and talented students were on their own, as the teachers overemphasized preparing the dumb students to pass standardized tests and whatnot. When I was on a high school quiz bowl show last year, TWICE, I had absolutely no preparative help form any teachers - I did it all on my own (have basically been preparing to be on that educational television show since 5th grade with my own incentive), and won the first time and nearly one the second time, while most of the other schools on there were heavily involved in teacher-group practice and whatnot. I loved making the statement that I didn't even need the school to do this! I definitely think that school is necessary for students (who wants uneducated morons running loose in society?) - even just for motivation, but as people have been saying here, it's the just the American school systems that pander to the lowest common denominator.


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## progBOT (May 4, 2011)

Education is worth the effort to achieve, whether formal or informal. The problem with formal education is that it doesn't cater to the individual. No two people are the same and this applies to how we learn. It is unrealistic to think that we can cater to everyone's unique learning style and speed and so the education system is not without flaws. The biggest problem, however, is with the professors who shouldn't be teaching. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean they are capable of teaching it in a way that the majority of their students can understand.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

It's about molding people into useful cogs for the machine.
As the machine changes, education does too.

During the industrial revolution, we needed a lot of factory workers, so the education system was designed to shove as many as possible down that route. Teach 'em the basic 3Rs and set them down to the factory/docks etc. under an apprenticeship system.

Now we don't make much; most of the manufacturing is now done in Asia. The machine needs different types of cogs. So now we're interested in 'educating' people more. . . sending them to university etc.

But the main aim is to keep them producing. . . encourage them to be productive with a carrot and stick approach.


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## jd_ (Feb 5, 2011)

eros5th said:


> College is overrated. I think they should skip the gen ed and just have you take what you need for a specialization. Less school, less loans, less crap.
> 
> The first 2 years of college was mostly like high school so I don't see the point of it. It expands your mind somewhat but you could do that on your own.
> 
> ...


They should certainly be more lenient to let people get out of these classes. Some states are doing this now, letting you basically have an AA when you graduate high school. I could have easily done this, then skipped most of the first 2 years of college "requirements" BS. Most of it was extremely boring as I had no interest in the classes, second I knew most of the material already from high school. At the university I went to they would only let you get out of so many courses though, and you STILL had to have those set amount of hours.

I mean, of course some people might need a bit of this remediation from high school, but for others...they really need to screen it better, because I truly believe they are boring many people out of their minds who would be enthusiastic if they were allowed to take classes they were interested in.
For instance, I had already taken AP Chem, AP Bio, and AP Physics in high school, my university didn't give me credit for ANY of them, so I had to retake them. For my Bio class, I showed up on the first day to get the syllabus, then NEVER returned, I just went to take the tests in the testing center and got an A. What a waste of tuition and inefficiency that was.

The other option would be, for high schools to just graduate people after the 10th grade who are at the top of their class.

I also think the Community Service/Volunteer requirements they have reinstated these days is complete GARBAGE. I didn't have to do it, but I know kids now do... I had this thing called you know... a job. 

The same has gone into college, requiring people to have unpaid internships, which should be a crime. Many of the brightest kids can't compete with the rich snots going off to DC for an internship or something because they had to take a summer job and working part time through school just to pay for their apartment.

I actually knew a guy who took out an 8000 dollar loan so he could go do a summer internship, that makes so little sense it hurts my brain.
So what you get is these over theoretical folks entering the workforce with no actual real world work experience when they are 22-23, or worse, they go into a phd/masters program yet NEVER have a job b/c mommy and daddy pay for everything so they graduate at 28 and have still never held an actual job with responsibilities and are often out of touch with reality. Then b/c of the glut of overqualified PhD's, they can't get a tenured position, so resort to working a menial job at Starbucks or Barnes and Noble, jobs they should have been doing when they were 16.

But yes, the education system tries to serve "everybody" and while it may serve some general purpose, it rarely takes into account those at the bottom or top of the bell curves. If you just show up to the class, never study and get A's...it is obvious the material is not a challenge and you should be moved to a different class. If the student is struggling in the class, they probably need remedial work. The problem is, these students are rarely actually moved and just lumped in with everybody else. 

I felt pretty under served by the education system, namely for all the arbitrary hoop jumping, when it could have been efficiently putting me in classes that were actually a challenge or able to hold my interest. I sympathize with others who were in my situation, and who were on the other end of the totem pole as well and had special needs.

/rant.


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## PAdude (Mar 18, 2011)

I'll weigh in with my views/story now.

I agree with those who said that education today is a crock of shit, and highly advice reading the opinions of both John Taylor Gatto and Ken Robinson. I went to a Prep School in high school (my mom used to work as a 2nd grade teacher at the school's elementary affiliate and my parents convinced me to go there and take the free "greatly improved education"). This was one of the worst deisions of my life. Although it is common knowledge that the public school system sucks, I think that private schools are generally looked upon in a more positive light. While I can't generalize all prep schools based on my experience at one specific school, I found that all prep school did was exacerbate the problems found in public shool and provide more unneccesary busy work for the kids to complete. Free thought was not encouraged at all and those who did not do well were stigmatized for not buying into the system. The only differences between public school and the school I went to were that, at the school I went to, the teachers were all over you and you had more unneccesary work t o complete that was not at all conducive to real learning.

I find college to be much of the same. Despite the fact that there are a few conscientious professors, it is still mostly about regurgitation and attention to detail with little attention devoted to divergent thinking or free thought. those who suck up the most and spend the most time on the menial work will achieve the best marks. Another complaint that I have is this: It seems as though smart kids are funnelled into the sciences while those who are not as capable are funnelled into other majors like the humanities. As a psych major who chose the field purely beause it is the thing that I am most interested in, I'm extremely disappointed with how bland the course material that we cover is at my school. 

When it comes down to it, school teaches you very few lessons that can be applied outside of the intellectual bubble of formal eduation itself. I sure hope that general intelligence is much more valuable in the work force than it is in education and that a 3.3-3.4ish GPA coupled with an unwillingness to do bend and do extracurriculars purely for show doesn't hamper me too much in the job search after college. 

By the way, love all of the responses!


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## kagemitsu (May 15, 2011)

I've come to believe that formal education is total crap. The amount of useless stuff I had to shove down my throat is simply unbelievable. The thought of all that time spent trying to learn stuff that will never have any application in my life, or that doesn't take me any closer to my personal goals makes me almost burst into tears. Not to mention that face to face classes are also a big hoax, at least in my university. Teachers do nothing but repeat what's on the books in different terms. 

The only thing it gives you is recognition, in my opinion. If you get a degree in, say, languages, you can prove the working world that you do, in fact, know languages and everything related to them. A degree certifies (or at least should) that you've got a certain set of skills that an employer might want for his company. If you don't get that (in)famous piece o'paper, no employer can be sure of what you can or can't do, not to mention the higher status and value it gives you in spite of someone who doesn't actually have a degree.

I have come to appreciate personal education much more. If I know what I know and if I'll ever become what I want to be, it'll be thanks to stuff I have learned _myself_, in my own time, with my own pace, with books I chose myself. I'm taking that stupid piece of paper because it is needed if you wanna have even the slightest chance at finding a job, but by no means I think it's been time and money well spent.


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