# Whats my type based off this natal chart.



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Shooter said:


> *Let's Put it to the test, when I can post links we can compare the findings to famous people in history to see what it says. I've seen correlations in the past with sports and how majority of the best athletes in one sport I've studied have a huge amount of X in their Mars. Looking it up to see if what they say were true I found they weren't sprouting rubbish.*


And all of them also likes sports and have a body that is fit for that sport they are practicing with good genes and strong will to achieve the goal of becoming the best. Doesn't mean that it has to do with astrology tho, lol.



> *What you're saying sounds like the same narrow minded views of many people whom I try to get interested in MBTI. I'm not saying it's 100 percent just give it a try and see if what they say fits you. Have fun with it. *


Just because people don't share your opinion about astrology doesn't mean that they are narrow minded. When it comes to MBTI then you're probably introducing it wrong.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

NighTi said:


> Absolutely true, but for a reason that you probably don't understand yet.
> 
> In a nutshell, the theory behind MBTI is that we build our inner cognitive world by making choices between opposites. Over time, these choices become so habitual that we become _almost _locked into a certain way of perceiving and judging the outside world. The key here is "almost." Most left-handed individuals don't lose the use of their right hands. They simply grow accustomed to using their left, even when it means twisting themselves into awkward positions.
> 
> Attempting to apply MBTI type to an astrological chart is a categorical misapplication, like guessing the correct color for your linear regression. Natal charts don't have MBTI types. People do.


I understand how MBTI works, I was just experimenting and wanted to see what people would type my natal chart. You're right Natal charts don't have mbti types, but people have natal charts.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Pff, MBTI contains so much information that it's not as unreliable, sure it's not perfect but it's good enough.
> I believe Jung said "We could have 360 types or we could have 16 for simplicity".
> That we saw ENTP has to do with the "Profile of an ENTP" and those profile stuff are as accurate as Astrology, but you did ask us to type a text and thus we need to use stereotypes. The real MBTI isn't even close to that level of uncertainty.
> 
> ...


Well I find that @*Shooter *actually comes across an ISTP to be honest. Factual, logical, concise but with a notable Ni. I don't see Ne anywhere in his posts. As for Jung and astrology it's a pretty well known fact he actually cast astrological natal charts in some cases with patients, so... you know.



> Astrology is of particular interest to the psychologist, since it contains a sort of psychological experience which we call projected - this means that we find the psychological facts as it were in the constellations. This originally gave rise to the idea that these factors derive from the stars, whereas they are merely in a relation of synchronicity with them. I admit that this is a very curious fact which throws a peculiar light on the structure of the human mind. .... C.G. Jung in 1947 in a letter to prof. B.V. Raman
> 
> Astrology Quotes by Carl Gustav Jung





> The origins of psychological astrology can be traced to the writings of ancient Greek philosophers such as Thales, Plato, andAristotle (especially his _De Anima_ treatise).[SUP][2][/SUP] Their theories on the nature of the Soul were adapted to astrology by important historical astrologers such as Ptolemy and Al-Kindi.[SUP][3][/SUP] In the twentieth century, esoteric tradition inspired Carl Jung, Swiss psychiatrist and founder of analytical psychology, to formulate his archetypal hypothesis from Plato's theory of ideas or forms.[SUP][4][/SUP] In his research into the symbolic meaning of his patient's dreams, conversations and paintings, Jung observed recurring mythical themes or archetypes. He proposed that these universal and timeless archetypes channel experiences and emotions, resulting in recognizable and typical patterns of behavior with certain probable outcomes.[SUP][5][/SUP] Jung claimed to observe a correlation between these archetypal images and the astrological themes or traditional 'gods' associated with the planets and signs of the zodiac. He concluded that the symbolic heavenly figures described by the constellations were originally inspired by projections of images created by the collective unconscious.[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP] *Jung wrote "Astrology represents the sum of all the psychological knowledge of antiquity"*.[SUP][8][/SUP]In collaboration with pioneer theoretical physicist (and Nobel laureate) Wolfgang Pauli, Jung developed the theory ofsynchronicity.[SUP][9][/SUP] This theory, which Jung compared to Aristotle's formal causation, poses that "whatever is born or done at this particular moment of time, has the quality of this moment of time".[SUP][8][/SUP] Accordingly, astrological claims of correlations between the position of heavenly bodies at the time of birth and an individual's development were defined by Jung as being acausal and not directly caused by the planets.[SUP][10][/SUP]
> Psychological astrology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> And all of them also likes sports and have a body that is fit for that sport they are practicing with good genes and strong will to achieve the goal of becoming the best. Doesn't mean that it has to do with astrology tho, lol.
> 
> 
> Just because people don't share your opinion about astrology doesn't mean that they are narrow minded. When it comes to MBTI then you're probably introducing it wrong.


Your post is ironic, maybe I hit a soft spot. Anyway to answer your question several athletes had Taurus in their Mars, which according to their theory it's based on action and ability to stay grounded. Where other athletes who had a Air element such as Gemini would lose focus because the air is likely to get too caught up in thought. The ability to react and respond. It was interesting.

There you go with your assumptions again. It's sad really, you don't know how I introduce MBTI so you don't know what you're talking about. I think you took my post as a personal attack when I never said you were narrow minded I said your post comes off as that. But I'm starting to think otherwise.


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## Vanishing Point (Oct 2, 2012)

double post


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Thank you Vanishing point, my intentions were never to start a debate but to bring something new to the table. I never once said Natal Charts were on the same level of Jung MBTI or that it was rubbish. All I'm saying is to check it out, its interesting. 

I ponder the ISTP for the longest and I would definitely agree with your assessment if it wasn't for another ISTP I know. His ability to analyze himself and how much time he spends in his head is ridiculous compare to myself. It's not as if I don't introspect but it doesn't rival that of ISTP and INTP at least from my observations.

Plus the thread " Introvert or loner" really got me thinking.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Vanishing Point said:


> Well I find that @*Shooter *actually comes across an ISTP to be honest. Factual, logical, concise but with a notable Ni. I don't see Ne anywhere in his posts. As for Jung and astrology it's a pretty well known fact he actually cast astrological natal charts in some cases with patients, so... you know.


Well, like NighTi said


> Attempting to apply MBTI type to an astrological chart is a categorical misapplication, like guessing the correct color for your linear regression. Natal charts don't have MBTI types. People do.


Also, MBTI is more than just Jung :wink:
Not to forget that again, Astrology and MBTI is 2 different things with different purposes.


Shooter said:


> Your post is ironic, maybe I hit a soft spot. Anyway to answer your question several athletes had Taurus in their Mars, which according to their theory it's based on action and ability to stay grounded. Where other athletes who had a Air element such as Gemini would lose focus because the air is likely to get too caught up in thought. The ability to react and respond. It was interesting.
> 
> There you go with your assumptions again. It's sad really, you don't know how I introduce MBTI so you don't know what you're talking about. I think you took my post as a personal attack when I never said you were narrow minded I said your post comes off as that. But I'm starting to think otherwise.


Nah, I actually don't really care. You might find connection between astrology and reality, I don't. Thus I said that you could keep your beliefs, just don't try to make me believe in it. After all, you seem dedicated to try and prove the credibility of astrology, I am simply trying to say that astrology and MBTI are completely different and there's no connection.

And well, I do see the connection between this and an ad hominem argument


> What you're saying sounds like the same narrow minded views of many people





> ad hominem Latin [æd ˈhɒmɪˌnɛm]
> adj & adv
> 1. directed against a person rather than against his arguments


Doesn't bother me that much tho, when it comes to your way of explaining then you are right, I don't know, but I do know how you introduce astrology (since that's what you are doing atm).


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

@Vanishing Point , There's no doubt that Jung was involved in astrology and even stranger things like "spirit guides," but I don't see how it's relevant. His theory of psychological types should stand or fall on its own merits, irrespective of other things Jung said or did.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Well, like NighTi said
> 
> Also, MBTI is more than just Jung :wink:
> Not to forget that again, Astrology and MBTI is 2 different things with different purposes.
> ...


 *It's funny you don't see the connection but was able to type and come up with ENTP. *
*
But on the bright side it's been very entertaining. *


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Shooter said:


> Thank you Vanishing point, my intentions were never to start a debate but to bring something new to the table. I never once said Natal Charts were on the same level of Jung MBTI or that it was rubbish. All I'm saying is to check it out, its interesting.
> 
> I ponder the ISTP for the longest and I would definitely agree with your assessment if it wasn't for another ISTP I know. His ability to analyze himself and how much time he spends in his head is ridiculous compare to myself. It's not as if I don't introspect but it doesn't rival that of ISTP and INTP at least from my observations.
> 
> Plus the thread " Introvert or loner" really got me thinking.


Well the OP was an Introvert. For instance preferred the abstract.....


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Don't ENTJ, ENTP prefer abstract? I like theories if they are useful. The ISTPs I know its crazy how they are able to visual and create a blue print and break down and analyze. I just don't think I operate in that fashion.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Shooter said:


> Don't ENTJ, ENTP prefer abstract? I like theories if they are useful. The ISTPs I know its crazy how they are able to visual and create a blue print and break down and analyze. I just don't think I operate in that fashion.


Depends on what you or natal chart defines abstraction?


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

I define abstraction as in the complete meaning of Ni. Seeing what isn't there , the imaginative, the surreal. The dream.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Abstraction in Cognitive terms or Jung or MBTI is the basic principle of Introvert. So to translate prefer's abstraction into Types is to prefer an Introverted nature which would be an Introvert.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Shooter said:


> I define abstraction as in the complete meaning of Ni. Seeing what isn't there , the imaginative, the surreal. The dream.


This is more of an abstract as in art manifestation and such.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> * I would be more inclined to believe you if you had say given it a try and said well it it's the complete opposite of me. It's merely coincidence that your type and the description they gave match up. So I'm incline to believe you don't know what you're talking about.*


I put your thought into consideration so I tried it out, read it and well... at least I had my first laugh of the day.
Assume you can find it here.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Alright I can finally post links. Since the topic of sports came up lets do Michael Jordan, many consider him an ISTP. So let's see if his natal chart comes up so.
Here is his natal chart, the time could be incorrect.
Natal Chart Report


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Ni isn't as abstract as people believe, Ne is more abstract.
Ni is grounded by Se, Se focuses on what is.
Ne is grounded by Si, Si focuses on the interpretation of what is.
Thus, NJs and SPs process information in a more "grounded" way than NPs and SJs do.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

I was referring to the definition of Ni, I'm not disagreeing with you. But since I was talking to an INFJ it was the first thing to come to mind. N in general to me is abstract, I'm a sensor so it's different to me as it would be comfortable to you.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Ni is an abstract Intuition ......that is why there is an i after the N


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Alright I just read Jordan's Natal and I don't want to come off as bias. But I get the ISTP impression from his natal, what do you guys think?

http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-...oklyn+Heights,+NY+(36),+United+States&lang=en


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

@Shooter, do you have any studies that show a statistically significant MBTI vs Natal Chart correlation using a random sample?

If you can't find one, I request that you gather a team and work on one. Until then, this stuff runs through my Ni-Ti processing loop like distilled water through a sieve. There's literally nothing here for me to analyze: no mechanical theory and no evidence with which to build one.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not an anti-supernaturalist, and I'm not dismissing natal charts out of hand. I just don't see a compelling reason to devote any energy to this particular idea, out of a zillion other possible/undocumented correlations in the universe.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

I didn't expect to prove anything with my example just wanted to see if I was right in my assessment. Fair enough NighTi, I understand where you're coming from. But from my point of view Michael Jordan chart describes him very well with some areas that are foreign to me like his love life. But as a person, competitor and introvert I saw all those things.

No worries friend. This was just an experiment that's all. I thought I saw a connection and if others didn't so be it. Beyond that I wanted to see if my chart match my type.


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

Shooter said:


> I thought I saw a connection and if others didn't so be it. Beyond that I wanted to see if my chart match my type.


I think you did a fine job of summarizing what bothers me about this whole exercise. It's a symptom of a bigger problem that has little to do with you personally.

Last week, I sat through a presentation by a manager who was trying to show how her team had performed against the targets she had set for 2012. Her visually appealing PowerPoint(tm) presentation included a colorful bar chart that showed how some parameter had improved by 20.6% since the measurement from the previous year. The problem? Her sample size was about 6. If you know anything about statistics, you will recognize this as utter garbage. A sample size of 6 proves nothing about anything, let alone with a precision that justifies a result with a digit to the right of the decimal point. 

If you're going to make a claim about correlation, you must demonstrate that your result falls outside what you would expect from random chance. If you flip a coin and get heads three times in a row, you have not proved that you will always get heads, or even that you will get heads _most_ of the time. Your sample size is too small.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

Well if that's the case I can make a claim and prove it's correlation. But what I think bothers people is how, the ends will showcase the correlation but not the how. All that said I am not a big typer and have better things to do then spending hours on writing up a theory and this and that just to showcase it online. 

I have no idea what a sample 6 is haha. I'm not as old as one might think but I do have an old soul.


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

Shooter said:


> Well if that's the case I can make a claim and prove it's correlation. But what I think bothers people is how, the ends will showcase the correlation but not the how. All that said I am not a big typer and have better things to do then spending hours on writing up a theory and this and that just to showcase it online.
> 
> I have no idea what a sample 6 is haha. I'm not as old as one might think but I do have an old soul.


It doesn't matter how old you are. If you want to present a credible case, you would do well to learn about Statistical significance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

The bottom line is that comparing your own natal chart to your own interpretation of your self-MBTI assessment is not science. If you want real credibility, you need to gather a large number of people at random and have disinterested third parties perform the assessments. Preferably, this should be "double blind" which means that you separate the MBTI typing from the natal chart generation and the individuals performing these assessments have no idea of what you're trying to prove.

I'm not trying to discourage your investigation. If you're interested in the subject, by all means study it. I am trying to discourage you from reporting meaningless or misleading results.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

NighTi said:


> It doesn't matter how old you are. If you want to present a credible case, you would do well to learn about Statistical significance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
> 
> The bottom line is that comparing your own natal chart to your own interpretation of your self-MBTI assessment is not science. If you want real credibility, you need to gather a large number of people at random and have disinterested third parties perform the assessments. Preferably, this should be "double blind" which means that you separate the MBTI typing from the natal chart generation and the individuals performing these assessments have no idea of what you're trying to prove.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage your investigation. If you're interested in the subject, by all means study it. I am trying to discourage you from reporting meaningless or misleading results.


Don't make yourself sound like an INTJ


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

NighTi said:


> It doesn't matter how old you are. If you want to present a credible case, you would do well to learn about Statistical significance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
> 
> The bottom line is that comparing your own natal chart to your own interpretation of your self-MBTI assessment is not science. If you want real credibility, you need to gather a large number of people at random and have disinterested third parties perform the assessments. Preferably, this should be "double blind" which means that you separate the MBTI typing from the natal chart generation and the individuals performing these assessments have no idea of what you're trying to prove.
> 
> I'm not trying to discourage your investigation. If you're interested in the subject, by all means study it. I am trying to discourage you from reporting meaningless or misleading results.


Which is exactly why I wouldn't bother to invest the time. I don't think I need to do all that do gain credibility. The results speak for themselves, either your chart doesn't match your type or it does. Meaningless maybe but not misleading.


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

myjazz said:


> Don't make yourself sound like an INTJ


I sound like one in real life too. Part of that is my education and profession. As you may recall, it took a brave and patient expert to convince me that I had mistyped myself and the T was actually Ti.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

NighTi said:


> I sound like one in real life too. Part of that is my education and profession. As you may recall, it took a brave and patient expert to convince me that I had mistyped myself and the T was actually Ti.


Reminds me of the saying Walks like a Duck, Talks like a Duck, its a duck. 
I don't recall that though I wasn't there.
(anyway this was not my point)


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

myjazz said:


> Reminds me of the saying Walks like a Duck, Talks like a Duck, its a duck.


That's what had me fooled too. I was following Keirsey who bases his temperament assessments on observable behavior rather than cognitive function. For the expert, the big giveaways were how I interact with my colleagues and the tight way in which I structure my thoughts. He said these were Fe and Ti. It didn't matter that I preferred thinking judgment over feeling judgment. I wasn't INTJ. I was INFJ with a function development pattern not uncommon among males, particularly those in science and engineering.

I fought him for two months, but the pieces slowly fell into place. Now I understand why I don't do well in long brainstorming sessions and need to go back to my desk to think.


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## Shooter (Mar 24, 2012)

NighTi said:


> That's what had me fooled too. I was following Keirsey who bases his temperament assessments on observable behavior rather than cognitive function. For the expert, the big giveaways were how I interact with my colleagues and the tight way in which I structure my thoughts. He said these were Fe and Ti. It didn't matter that I preferred thinking judgment over feeling judgment. I wasn't INTJ. I was INFJ with a function development pattern not uncommon among males, particularly those in science and engineering.
> 
> I fought him for two months, but the pieces slowly fell into place. Now I understand why I don't do well in long brainstorming sessions and need to go back to my desk to think.


During your confusion did you always know you possess Fe?


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

NighTi said:


> That's what had me fooled too. I was following Keirsey who bases his temperament assessments on observable behavior rather than cognitive function. For the expert, the big giveaways were how I interact with my colleagues and the tight way in which I structure my thoughts. He said these were Fe and Ti. It didn't matter that I preferred thinking judgment over feeling judgment. I wasn't INTJ. I was INFJ with a function development pattern not uncommon among males, particularly those in science and engineering.
> 
> I fought him for two months, but the pieces slowly fell into place. Now I understand why I don't do well in long brainstorming sessions and need to go back to my desk to think.


What expert told you that you prefer Thinking over Feeling and then told you that you are an F type?


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

Shooter said:


> During your confusion did you always know you possess Fe?


No. I did not understand function attitude at all.


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

myjazz said:


> What expert told you that you prefer Thinking over Feeling and then told you that you are an F type?


He was just an ordinary MBTI consultant who helped companies with type dynamics. I'm not appealing to authority. He irritated me into hitting the books and reaching the conclusion for myself. I spent two months trying to prove wrong, and proved him right instead.

I'm NiTiFeSe. That's not INTJ. It's INFJ misspelled. It's also unhealthy and fails to leverage my gifts to their full potential. I'm learning to overcome my fear of Fe and use it appropriately, and to stop faking Te. My well-developed Ti has turned into a fine living but it's time to restore some balance.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

This is getting a bit interesting


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

What is fake Te?


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

myjazz said:


> What is fake Te?


Good question! Thank you for showing interest.

The fake Te is Ti dressed in an expensive tuxedo. To make sense of this, you'll need a little background. I'm a mid-career software engineer. I've spent several years working on industrial and scientific projects in the company of lots of people wearing lab coats and using fancy equipment. These guys all came up through the science and engineering schools. Te is their native thinking language. I came up through philosophy and theology. Ti is my native thinking language, but I accidentally landed in their world and had to adapt. It turned out that I was pretty good at it, so I stayed and got comfortable.

In Maine, the natives have a saying: "My cat had kittens in the oven. That doesn't make them biscuits."

The real story is actually deeper and more complicated than I presented here, but I think what I wrote provides the right flavor. As you know, cognitive function is not the same thing as skill, and it's only a part of our personality. Adaptation is one of our most important assets, but if we bend too much we lose structural integrity.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

NighTi said:


> Good question! Thank you for showing interest.
> 
> The fake Te is Ti dressed in an expensive tuxedo. To make sense of this, you'll need a little background. I'm a mid-career software engineer. I've spent several years working on industrial and scientific projects in the company of lots of people wearing lab coats and using fancy equipment. These guys all came up through the science and engineering schools. Te is their native thinking language. I came up through philosophy and theology. Ti is my native thinking language, but I accidentally landed in their world and had to adapt. It turned out that I was pretty good at it, so I stayed and got comfortable.
> 
> ...


I still don't understand what fake Te is though? I mean you didn't actually explain it


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## NighTi (Jan 1, 2013)

myjazz said:


> I still don't understand what fake Te is though? I mean you didn't actually explain it


My understanding of Te and Ti comes from Jung who used Darwin and Kant to represent those respective functions. Te focuses outwardly. Its preferred way to test a theory is to compare it against experiential or empirical data. Ti focuses inwardly. Its preferred way to test a theory is to examine its structure against accepted rules of inference. Note the word "preferred." In real life, everyone does both, and scientists and engineers do a whole lot of both. If we performed experiments on every theory, we would never get any work done, but if we depended only on inference, we would never learn anything new.

Because the real-life difference is a matter of degree rather than of kind, I can think in an empirical way. So can you. So can anyone. In the process, I can leverage Ti to focus the effort on the experiments most likely to give us the biggest bang for the buck, and to gain more value from the data that we already have. Ti used in this way compliments Te in a way that can be interpreted as better/stronger/more effective Te. If you don't stop to sort out who contributed what, I can look like just another of those Te experimenters. In fact, I had myself fooled. It did bother me that I often performed poorly in a team setting in real-time and blurted out _really_ stupid things in meetings, but alone at my desk, I could be brilliant. 

Since I learned about the Te/Ti distinction, I'm now working on ways to give myself permission to go back to my desk and think. It creates some awkward moments, especially now that I _know _I can solve the problem twenty times faster if I get some time alone. I have to balance this with the value that we get from leveraging complimentary skills in real-time.


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