# Do Narcissists Know They're Narcissists?



## Kilgore Trout (Jun 25, 2010)

Do Narcissists Know They Are Narcissists? | Psychology Today


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

The accidental one doesn't. The serious one does.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

Not usually. That is one reason the mainstream therapeutic community advocates for NOT sending a NPD to therapy.

Narcissism, the personality disorder form of it, is the mind's way of overcompensating for a very weak ego. It's very fragile, so being forced to face that you are overcompensating for deep self-hatred can lead to some pretty drastic consequences. Like nervous breakdowns and violence.

A true clinical Narcissist convinces themselves that they are really that special. They don't allow themselves to face the fact that they are convincing themselves of this. Because it's overall ego defense gone extreme.

So, I would not say the clinical level person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder has the ego strength to be self-aware about their Narcissism.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

Oh, and Psychology Today isn't the best source for psychology research findings and discussion. A lot of the authors on there aren't as credible as those who write for scholarly journals, or whose work is referenced in articles in Scientific American Mind.

I'm in this world professionally, and would not get any info from Psychology Today, unless it was just for personals shirts and giggles. Even though SciAm Mind is targeted to a mainstream audience, their selection process for information-sharing is still more rigorous. IME/IMO of course.


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

sparkles said:


> Narcissism, the personality disorder form of it, is the mind's way of overcompensating for a very weak ego.


A very weak ego? Did you say that the way you intended? 
Narcissism would appear to indicate ego and nothing but ego. 
A confident, well-adjusted person has little need of ego. 
What is ego, anyway, but an empty compensation for a lack of substance?


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

the crow said:


> A very weak ego? Did you say that the way you intended?
> Narcissism would appear to indicate ego and nothing but ego.
> A confident, well-adjusted person has little need of ego.
> What is ego, anyway, but an empty compensation for a lack of substance?


Yes, I did. 
As I also said, narcissism (at clinical levels) is due to having such a fragile ego that the person over-corrects and overcompensates by convincing themselves they are fundamentally special, unique, worthy of admiration. 

It LOOKS like ego to the extreme, but this is a defense. It covers up a sense of feeling very weak and fragile. The ego is so fragile in a clinically Narcissistic person, that he or she cannot bear to face how fragile s/he feels. So they create this personna of all-importance, and convince themselves of it.

This is one reason criticizing a Narcissistic person, or doing anything that threatens this self-concept of all-importance, can lead to such an intense reaction. 

How the Narcissist appears to others, and how they feel inside, and how they really feel under the ego defenses, are all different. Though how they appear to others and how they (try to) convince themselves they feel can look similar.

It is similar, though far more extreme, to the tendency to talk yourself up and act arrogant. Arrogance is often insecurity, over-corrected. Same thing here, but times a thousand.


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

There's something I didn't know. 
Thank you. 
_(Makes note to take this into account when dealing with overly-egotistical-appearing forum users). _


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

@the crow lawl. Egotism is subjective. Cocky, confident, arrogant, all depend on who's doing the labeling. To me there is a difference between confidence or brashness, and cockiness or arrogance. To you they may all seem the same.

With the available statistics on NPD prevalence in the general population (those not receiving inpatient treatment), I seriously doubt there's any clinical Narcissists active on these boards. Nice try though, and you're welcome to throw the label around like everybody else :tongue:


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

Oh I generally don't throw anything around. Especially labels. 
I do recognize ego, though, and it is never pretty. 
Funny you mention "confident" in there with the other negative labels. 
Perhaps you do not know what confident is, in the same way I did not know what ego meant, in your clinical context. 
Confident is when one knows what one is, and who one is. 
Ego is what you get when neither of those conditions is present. 
That is why it is so prevalent, to the point where most don't even recognize it.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

You're assigning negative connotation to ego. You would not exist if you did not have an ego. 
Identity exists in all humans, even buddhists who are trying to stop attaching to their ego.
Ego helps you from bumping into walls all the time (spatial awareness).
Ego helps you put food in your mouth instead of in your SO's mouth (unless that was the goal :wink.

I don't have to make a fuss about my intellect, but I can make some cocky-sounding references to it sometimes. I don't have anything to prove wrt my smarts. Sometimes a person knows they are good at something, and foregoes the level of humility another person expects/wants in acknowledging that. Other times, it's just insecurity or overcompensation. It can't all be pared down as simply as you're trying to.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to take up your definition just because you tell me I don't know the one true meaning of a word. :tongue:

Insecurity isn't even necessarily bad. It can lead to humility and it can prime a person to learn something. Ego isn't necessarily bad either. It keeps you alive, and keeps you aware of being an individual animal in a sea of other things. 

We're not talking about right/wrong or good/bad (or at least, I'm not). We're talking about matters of intensity, extremes in degree.


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

Well. I disagree with your view of ego, but then so does almost everybody else disagree with mine. 
And Buddhists, taoists and the like, do try to shunt ego aside. I know. I am one. And I have. 
People don't generally recognize what I end up with. Some think I am completely mad. 
I get called all kinds of things. It's amusing what passes for insults these days: 
I've even been accused of being "Resolute"  

If you're happy with your definitions, fine. 
It takes an awful lot of time, introspection, testing and work, to have come up with mine. 
Then again, I don't read many books, or get taught. I work everything out from first-principles. 
For myself, I do nicely without ego. It is vastly inferior to the real thing.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

Who is using the word, "I," then?

You sound a little self-righteous about no-self, heh. 

The Eastern thought practitioners I know don't try to discard ego. They rather try to stop attaching to ego as much as someone who isn't on that path. 

I think viewing ego as something to annihilate can lead to depersonalization and dissociation, and all sorts of things that are not a sign of inner peace or movement toward enlightenment. I only say that after seeing it happen to so many Westerners who take that path for a significant period of time.

I don't think the Buddha even advocated for annihilation of ego. I think he rather advocated for releasing attachment to a stable sense of self that resists certain experiences. Dukkha doesn't come from the sense of I. It comes from the sense of the stable I that was not supposed to have x experience. Dukka comes from "this wasn't supposed to happen to me and I decided to view it as bad".


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## Elwin (Feb 17, 2011)

Sam Vaknin has an interesting YouTube channel on narcissism. He wrote a book on narcissism called "Malignant Self-Love" and claims to be one himself.


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

Annihilation of ego? 
I didn't say that. You did. 
I said "shunt aside". 
Clearly you have an agenda. 
You must be aware of that old cliche about psychologists? 
The one about about them having more problems than their patients. 
I prefer not to believe that, but it does seem to have some basis in fact.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

Yeah okay man. 

I do have an agenda. I like to see folks move toward emotional and mental health instead of away from it.

I did draw conclusions based on your patterns of speech, that you were on the sort of path that involves resisting ego, even including the healthy expression of ego. That path is usually more destructive than constructive. And it reveals an irony of deciding the ego is "bad" and something to distance your ... Self ... from in some way. 

But yes, you're right, I used a word you didn't use. 

And it isn't fair of me to assume you are subjugating your ego in a depersonalized way. I can't know that.

Most folks I know who talk about ego in this way are creating more internal separation instead of expanding their consciousness through integration and movement toward something that is pure and whole, not just pure. Breaking things down, sure, but like I said the end result usually has not looked like much inner peace. 

Of course that goes through my perceptual filters and bias. YMMV. I'd rather feel positive or neutral than feel nothing. There's liberation to be found in both paths, though.

Each to their own. If it is making you happy, more power to you. You don't sound happy but so much is lost in text-only communication.

I never said I was a psychologist. Only that I'm in that world professionally. Therapists, counselors, all those sorts of professions can involve training in psychology, but don't have to involve that specific field of study to practice as a licensed professional. 

If you want to take my concerns about emotional health (which come from a positive and well-meaning place btw) and turn them back around to point a finger at me without doing so overtly, go right ahead.


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## Coonsy (Dec 22, 2010)

sparkles is spot on that true narcissists (those with NPD) actually have a very fragile ego, and go to great lengths to keep their little imaginary world functioning as they think it should. Violence and rages are not uncommon if they feel their world (ie ego) is threatened, most especially by those closest to them. 

If someone is close to a narcissist, it is often that the narcissist will appear charming and win the hearts and minds of those they associate with professionally and socially, while being a very different person behind closed doors (where those closest to them will see through the charade - and woe to those who then try to stand up them). 

My father has full blown NPD - of course, never clinically diagnosed since he's convinced there's nothing wrong with him, but my mother and I have researched it rather extensively, and he not only fits the descriptions, but the patterns of behavior as well, including the people he chooses to keep close. He's of the violent sort - charming when out and about and downright scary at home. They finally divorced and he has moved on to another future victim, and although the wedding is this coming weekend (I won't be there for a variety of reasons), at this moment my mother is still an unwilling participant in his life, now as the perceived "parasite" (part of the NPD relationship cycle). Needless to say, for far too many years, my mother played the perfect role for a narcissist, and his behavior escalated until finally with enough prompting and pushing from me she finally got up the nerve to leave.

A true blue narcissist can actually be a very scary person - they go far beyond someone who is simply egotistical or selfish.


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## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

Narcissists are too good to be narcissistic. I'm a narcissist.


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## the crow (Feb 9, 2011)

sparkles said:


> Yeah okay man.


That, I would imagine is about as good as it gets. 
The path I am on, is, indeed, one of wonder. 
One question: why do you get the impression I am not happy? 
Is it the lack of emotion? The lack of reaction? What is it? I would be interested to know what you see. 
In that you are incorrect as could be: although "happy" is not something I aim at, it is often the result of not aiming for it. 
Balanced is where I head towards. Calm. This forum is a good place to exercise that capacity, at least for me. 
I agree that many goofier enlightenment-seekers can, and have, done themselves great harm in their pursuits. 
You may rest assured, I am not one of them. 
I can see how you might have assumed I was a whole different animal. 
But, as it is, I am a crow. 
Come: let us reason together.


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## sparkles (Mar 2, 2011)

the crow said:


> That, I would imagine is about as good as it gets.
> The path I am on, is, indeed, one of wonder.
> One question: why do you get the impression I am not happy?
> Is it the lack of emotion? The lack of reaction? What is it? I would be interested to know what you see.
> ...


Hello, crow, I'm an eagle. Trying to answer your question.

The above post has a different tone from the others. This one seems less like it was written by someone who was weighing themselves down with stuff (guidelines? dinner? I dunno with what exactly). I did see some reactiveness in your previous posts, and now that I've said you were right about something you backed off with that. Which is fine, human, or crow-like, either way.

Until very recently I had a goal of balance myself. Now, I don't need that goal. I am flexible enough for most things to just flow around me. And I began to enjoy mild extremes, seeing how they don't throw me off my center either.

I'll readily admit I attach to things I don't want to fall back out of my experience, though. Trying to practice non-attachment was too much work. I've become less attached since I stopped trying to become less attached. Heh.


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## kelliss (Mar 11, 2011)

Having grown up with a narcissitic mother, I feel confident in saying that people with NPD are blind to the fact that are Narcissists. Not only are they unaware of their pathology, they truly believe that everybody else is fucked up and thus, responsible for all the Narcissist's problems. I could not disagree more with this article. NPD is rooted in the individual's poor self image and his unconscious belief that he isn't worthy of any goodness in his life. The Narcissist then sabotages his interpersonal relationships out of fear of losing them due to his shortcomings. (Counterintuitive, I know. But that's why it's called a "disorder." ) Another M.O. of an NPD is to blow through the lives of those closest to him like a tornado, sucking up all their emotional energy and leaving a path of destruction in its wake. The purpose of this, being to attempt to fill the NPD's emotional void by demanding the adulation of others. Narcissists make everything about them, but not in the same way as a megalomaniac. A Narcissist would believe that his friend's purchase of a new car was done just to "one up" him. ( Schadenfreude is often the companion of NPD...IMO) 

Anyway...since the DSM-V no longer lists NPD as a mental disorder, I guess this is all a moot point. I'll bet those DSM writers did that just to piss me off! lol : )


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## susurration (Oct 22, 2009)

Elwin said:


> Sam Vaknin has an interesting YouTube channel on narcissism. He wrote a book on narcissism called "Malignant Self-Love" and claims to be one himself.


There's actually an Australian documentary featuring him I, Psychopath. I watched it probably two years ago. It was the most frustrating doco I have ever watched. 

Found it on youtube (the other 4 clips are on this channel):





"He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy" apparently. And that's what the whole documentary was about.


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## Elwin (Feb 17, 2011)

susurration said:


> There's actually an Australian documentary featuring him I, Psychopath. I watched it probably two years ago. It was the most frustrating doco I have ever watched.
> 
> Found it on youtube (the other 4 clips are on this channel):
> 
> "He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy" apparently. And that's what the whole documentary was about.


I saw that a couple years ago as well and ripped it for my obnoxious archives. He appears to have found a way to use the persona of being a narcissist/psychopath as a source of narcissistic supply. He seems way too self-aware though, especially when you watch his YouTube videos. However, if I recall, the self-awareness issue was addressed in the documentary somehow, but I haven't seen it for awhile.


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## feralesque (Dec 27, 2010)

All I know is that when I rocked on up to a therapy session and expressed my concerns about my own potential narcissism my therapist actually laughed. She told me that if I were a narcissist then it wouldn't occur to me to ask the question let alone worry about it.

She also told me that people with narcissistic personality disorder rarely seek help as they do not recognize any of their traits to be negative.

I suspect people often think of narcissism in more general terms than is realistic. I've noticed narcissism is a personality disorder quoted a lot on internet forums because elements of narcissistic traits can, and do exist in many people, but that is a hell of a lot different from an individual who genuinely has narcissistic personality disorder.


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## Ravenstar (Apr 2, 2011)

I've done a lot of reading on Narcissism. I seem to attract them for whatever reason, or I did in the past and needed to know what I was dealing with. I'm fairly narcissist free right now! LOL

From what I understand the psychiatric community is now looking at Narcissism (NPD) as a lesser form of ASPD or Anti-Social Personality Disorder - what we used to call psychopaths. There is a continuum along the lines of narcissism from the mildly egotistical annoying ass to the malignant narcissist who destroys others for their own enjoyment and/or needs. I think the difference between a narcissist and a psychopath is that narcissists know others have feelings, they just aren't as important as his/hers (many more men than women are narcissists, more women are borderline [bpd]) the psychopath knows there's something called feelings but is so out of touch with his, or theoretically has no real 'conscience', that others appear to him to be objects, and therefore usable/disposable.

There's more rationalization and projection with a narcissist - they literally project all their unwanted feelings and traits onto others - it's really creepy to watch. Psychopaths don't identify or project - they fill their desires and that's it. The other is never much considered at all except as a means or tool.

Another trait is that they are really good actors, and frequently hold positions of power and/or influence. They use charm to seduce people whether in business or in personal life. Psychopaths don't. I heard one person say that the difference between them is that malignant narcissists are highly adapted psychopaths, the successful ones. 'Snakes in Suits' is a good book on this aspect of it.

I would agree with the theory that it is a damaged, undeveloped and extremely fragile ego that precipitates narcissism. There is evidence that it has genetic roots rather than being primarily a psychological wounding defense mechanism gone awry like some other neuroses. Psychopaths also seem to be born, not made.

Personality disorders are among the hardest to treat.. and Narcissists among the hardest - because they don't think anything is wrong with them and don't self-identify as needing help. Another interesting fact is that they can fool even the best of psychiatrists, unless that person specializes in it.

Are they dangerous? IMHO, absolutely. They are the predators of our society, and the sicker ones are deadly; emotionally, psychologically and physically in the case of malignant ones.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Not often, no. When they find out, I think they find it cute.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Apparently some of them do. The psychforums has a section for NPD which I have browsed a several occasions and there are a few narcissist posters there: Narcissistic Personality Disorder Forum though I am not sure though if those people have discovered it on their own or if they were referred by family members or friends.

I do agree that there is a continuum rather than distinct classification that a person either has NPD or they don't have it. There are also two subtypes of narcissism - grandiose and vulnerable. The descriptions of aggressive pushy exhibitionist narcissists are likely to be about people with grandiose form of NPD. Vulnerable ones actually aren't that easy to tell. They can appear to be rather reserved, shy, and modest on the outside. According to what I've read narcissists do periodically have rare but very intense outbreaks of self-criticism where they realize their own faults. From what I have witnessed of one vulnerable narcissist though his self-criticism tended to be completely misdirected. For example during one outbreak he concluded that people did not like him because of his annoying voice.

I've had a chance to spend time with somebody who had a very mild form of narcissism. I remember calling his attention to a rather small mistake that he has made. He hesitated and proceeded to look at me with a blank stare like what I have said just didn't compute. Then to my surprise he turned it around as if it was my fault. I took the situation apart and again explained where he has made a mistake. He became jittery and didn't say anything the second time so I switched the subject to something else. But from what point on I understood that something was off about this guy, that a normal person would be able to easily admit making such a simple mistake and accept the responsibility. His response to this situation clearly did not what I would have expected. If he could not accept blame for such a simple mistake, I doubt that he would be able to determine and admit to having some mild form of NPD.


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## USAirlinesLetter (May 25, 2011)

In some way, i guess narcissists know that they are but for some people having that kind of mentality, i think some of them do not know that they are being narcissistic.


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