# Voldemort, Introverted or extraverted?



## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

LOL I hate to keeping jumping in on this but Darth Vader is soooo INTJ it's not even funny. I mean the whole "I got so angry that I killed a bunch of kids" Inferior-Se eruption and the "nooooooooo!" So not ISTP. ISTP would get mad and cry that no one likes him and everyone is against him and throw a fit about how he doesn't fit in (Lucas starts down this road but changes course). Vader blows up physically when he gets mad by choking insubordinates (and notice how he stays out of fights he doesn't have to be in).

One of the problems with the six Star Wars movies is the lack of consistency of character. The Vader of the first two movies is much more of an archetypal bad guy (the Emperor is not really all that significant to the story -- not the universe of Star Wars but the story of Star Wars as it relates to the central characters is about Luke and Vader everything else is peripheral). In the latter films Lucas tries to humanize Darth Vader somewhat which of course is done inconsistently. He's portrayed in Episode 1 as something of an ENTP kid, who then becomes like an ISTP teenager with seemingly no intuition about what's going on around him or any sense of bigger picture, and then an INTJ villain in Episode 4 who is completely intuitive and big picture oriented. 

I think these character inconsistencies are one of the things that plague the series of movies because you dont really have a good character arc as to how Anakin becomes Darth Vader. Basically, how does a precocious child develop into the epitome of evil in the universe? Lucas just presents it as if he had some sort of PTSD nervous breakdown or something or is under hypnosis or whatever (Lucas is not very good with character. All of his characters are always ridiculously one-dimensional superficial stereotypes, so when further development is needed the character falls apart. Yoda is clearly the monk, C3PO is clearly the butler, etc. The one-dimensionality is okay at first because the scope of the story is large, but once we begin to focus on the characters themselves, they become sorta cardboard, which is really apparent in the latter three films where you have characters who are just pointless, like Count Duuku and Mace Windu - and why is Jimmy Smits in this movie? lol)


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@LiquidLight

Your whole point above demonstrates exactly the reason I get soo bored of all of the posts dedicated to typing unrealistic characters in unrealistic genres (e.g. Hannibal Lecter - if I see *one more thread* wasted on questioning whether or not he's an INTJ (heh, more like a typical creepy cinematic psychopath - not a *realistic* INTJ, like so many at the official INTJ Forum seem to (want to) believe)...well, something unpleasant will happen to me upstairs! ;P). It's a bit scary how much some people are seemingly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality around these forums. o.o


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

LOL I work in Hollywood so these discussions (not MBTI related but character related) are commonplace.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Awesome!! I figured that was the case from your profile. Dare I ask, do you know George Lucas by chance, or is my Ni running wild? XD


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> Awesome!! I figured that was the case from your profile. Dare I ask, do you know George Lucas by chance, or is my Ni running wild? XD


No I don't, but I do know a number of people have worked at or currently work at ILM. From most accounts he's an ESTP (pretty clearly from his body of work and his pioneering of modern visual effects). A lot of Hollywood types are ESPs.

Michael Bay is ESFP (again obvious here.)

David Ficher I would argue is ISTP (super technical, not the most personable of people on set). 

Steven Spielberg (I dunno. He always comes off to me as something of an INFJ. But he's often typed online as ISFP. But I think he has too much commitment to things like military veterans, and his Shoah Foundation, and making sure people remember the Holocaust to be a Fi-dom. Also he speaks of his two Oscar wins as being very meaningful and is ridiculously loyal to his core team of Michael Khan, Janusz Kaminski and John Williams. Same with using certain actors over and over again. Plus he has a way of lacing everything he does, even wild camera moves, with subtext making them transparent to the audience, which makes me think strong Ni. But he also likes to rush through the actual filming process preferring to shoot a movie as fast as possible). So probably INFJ.

It wouldn't surprise me if Tim Burton was ISTP. (His movies are always noticeably lacking in emotional depth).

I think the Scott family (Ridley, Tony and Jake) are Se-types but not sure which flavor - Tony is probably a Se-dom though. Ridley might be ISTP (again not a lot of emotional depth here even in movies like Gladiator and Blade Runner. Some decent subtext though).

JJ Abrams is totally ENFP (at first I thought ENFJ but the more I think about it, he's so quirky and his whole 'box of possibilities' screamed Ne-dom to me).

Marty Scorcese is probably a Fi-type (he was notoriously Indie until recently). Maybe ISFP.

Quentin Tarantino might be ENTP. Definitely a Ne-style mash-up artist here. Quirky Fe. (Some Si there, but always in a funky way, he never really embraces the old movies, just kinda plays off them).


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Wow, George Lucas a possible ESTP?! This is so fascinating! I don't think I'll ever quite think of him the same way again (I got so used to the specious, omnipresent internet claims that the man is likely an an INTJ (or some N dom in general, just because he emphasizes using your imagination in his films, which is not N, contrary to popular belief), that there was like no chance that I would've ever suspected him to be mistyped this badly, haha). His innovative specialties make this believable though, as you mentioned. It's funny to me that the type descriptions for the Se doms never (so far as I've seen) emphasize their innovative potential (let alone any sensor), but don't even hesitate to make, say, INTPs out to be potential Einsteins, Ne in general out to be synonymous with creative innovation, etc. Perhaps this is part of the reason that people like Lucas are so quick to be pegged Ns (let alone, a lot of people around here seem to believe that N = influential, which is ironic, considering the S functions would normally have more to do with wanting to directly impact reality).

The Steven Spielberg assessment seems reasonable (more reasonable than ISFP), as well as Tarantino, Burton, and Scorcese. Are you saying that all of these people currently work at ILM...!?


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

On a Vader side note, I think if more Ni doms were actually willing to talk about their inferior Se online (of all of the types, these types seem to talk about their inferior function the least in my experience online), the idea of him being an INTJ wouldn't be so hard to recognize. Personally, I feel very strongly about the role of the inferior function in personality and think it is extremely underestimated in most type theories - to the point that the theories pretty much pretend it has no conscious impact on the personality, which isn't true at all (I'll save this rant for another time so I can catch up on a sleep deficit for now -_-..zzz ).


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> The Steven Spielberg assessment seems reasonable (more reasonable than ISFP), as well as Tarantino, Burton, and Scorcese. Are you saying that all of these people currently work at ILM...!?


A lot of them don't work there anymore. i know a few that are freelance Flame artists and such around LA. Yea I agree, people don't spend enough time on the inferior (which to me is just as important as the dominant because the inferior begins to unravel to parts of us we repress, which is just as important as the hero personality - actually maybe moreso if we're talking self-discovery).


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

cactus_waltz said:


> I would say ISTJ for sure. Might be a moot point though, since the "real" villain of Star Wars would be the Emperor, who might well be an Ni user. Interesting list, btw.


might be going off on a tangent but Darth Vader is my favorite character. he last three movies followed luke but the story as a whole is based more around anakin, and hes the one who really ever actually does anything. Vader was the one who actually killed the emperor and if you think about it luke doesn't really do much to help other than remind anakin of his good nature. 

In the first movie luke doesnt do anything until the end where he blows up the death star which was kind of useless because they had another one anyway. in the second movie he trains but fails to save anybody and ends up needing saving. in the last movie luke saves hahn and leia but then doesn't really do anything the rest of the movie.

and my last point is that its fucking vader. even as a bad guy hes more fun to watch and I think the series would have been a lot better if there was more emphasis on him. luke wasnt my favorite, there was a smugness about him i didnt much care for. there was also a sort of poutiness about "presuited" vader i didnt care for either though. "post-suited" vader also creeped me out. but f***ing vader takes names


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

busyCHilD said:


> I don't think we can type Voldemort because he was conceived under a love potion, which is why he can't love or comprehend love's true strength, or why he never had any friends.
> 
> I think Vader is an ISTP. He followed every order the emperor decreed, loved working with his hands (action orientated), he needed to spend time alone, he was conflicted between his emotions and the code he knew he was supposed to follow but wasn't actually ever emotionally available to Padme. He had the highest level of Midichlorians of any jedi in history, and from there came his skill and "one-ness" with the force. Not to mention how he lashed out against the tusken raiders for killing his mother.


I don't knw if I'd type vader as an INTJ but I don;t think lashing out at your mothers murderers is restricted to one type, nor is getting your hands dirty, or being being emotionally unavailable during times of trouble. I think his relationship with the emperor would fit with the traits of INTJs as they are fully capable of leadership but prefer not be in those positions if there is somebody they can respect at the reins.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@Colton Chaulk

Well, Liquid Light is relating this to his obvious Ni prominent dialogue, to infer that his behavior generally seems to stem from inferior Se. Someone else in here brought up the "getting dirty hands" point to support him being an ISTP, which clearly isn't the case (I like working with my hands somewhat, and I'm obviously an inferior Se user, so it's not a good idea to underestimate the potential of the inferior function, although it is helpful to look for consistent points of inferiority in it to identify it. I mean, can you see an ISTP saying half of what Vader is famous for and taking themselves seriously? I can't. I can see them mocking it more than anything.


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> @Colton Chaulk
> 
> Well, Liquid Light is relating this to his obvious Ni prominent dialogue, to infer that his behavior generally seems to stem from inferior Se. Someone else in here brought up the "getting dirty hands" point to support him being an ISTP, which clearly isn't the case (I like working with my hands somewhat, and I'm obviously an inferior Se user, so it's not a good idea to underestimate the potential of the inferior function, although it is helpful to look for consistent points of inferiority in it to identify it. I mean, can you see an ISTP saying half of what Vader is famous for and taking themselves seriously? I can't. I can see them mocking it more than anything.


Honestly I don't understand half of what you half of what you said or what an ISTP is but I understand the hands getting dirty thing. I'm an INTJ and can be a dirty sonbitch


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@Colton Chaulk

Well, we were arguing that much of Vader's dialogue sounded very heavily Ni in nature (he's an Ni dom), thus we were forced to assume that his most negative behaviors stemmed from inferior Se and used their (the behaviors') negatively physical nature to our advantage to prove this, which would be consistent with the fact that Vader obviously operates in a negative mental state, which according to MBTI and such, would mean that he uses his inferior function more than an average healthy INTJ and under stress, it would be used in very negative ways (e.g. Darth Vader getting extremely angry and killing someone). Of course, this isn't very realistic, but it fits none-the-less.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

And furthermore in movies characters like Lord Voldemort or The Godfather or Darth Vader or The Wicked Witch are highly archetypal. They're exaggerations that are more symbols than real people (usually symbolic of absolute evil or absolute good - Jung was really interested in this as it related to fairy tales). Think of the obvious light vs dark symbolism of Natalie Portman in _Black Swan_. 

In other words because these movies are often telling stories of HUGE scope you can't spend a lot of time on character nuance because you're trying to tell a gigantic galactic story. So this often forces characters to be one-dimensional stereotypes (you only have 2 hours after all in a movie to tell a story so you have to leave sometimes gaping holes in the timeline and make the characters really on-the-nose and almost cartoony to get the point across in order to move the story along.) This is why supporting characters in a lot of these epic movies are really one-dimensional because the audience would get lost and not know which character arc was most important to the story. C3P0 and Chewbacca have to be archetypal ISJs because the audience has to immediately recognize their role. They're not the centerpiece of the story so we can't spend too much time on them. Same with Mila Kunis in _Black Swan_ - we don't know who she is or where she comes from (or whether she is just a figment of the imagination for much of the movie) we just know she represents the shadow side of Natalie Portman and her arrival is the inciting incident of the story.

A more humorous example of archetypal characters are the guys from _The Hangover_ movies. Zack Galifinakis' "Alan" is an eternal child ENFP opposed almost directly by ridiculously stereotypical stick-in-the-mud ISTJ "Stu" played by Ed Helms. Each represents the other's shadow, which of course is the main conflict of the story with Bradley Cooper's (ESTP) "Phil" being a mediating force between the two.


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## busyCHilD (Sep 1, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I don't knw if I'd type vader as an INTJ but I don;t think lashing out at your mothers murderers is restricted to one type, nor is getting your hands dirty, or being being emotionally unavailable during times of trouble. I think his relationship with the emperor would fit with the traits of INTJs as they are fully capable of leadership but prefer not be in those positions if there is somebody they can respect at the reins.


We have to take into account Anakin from the new movies, I don't see any real difference between him and the Vader from the old movies, they were just more focused on Luke. Also I just think it's too easy to type out every villain of a movie as INTJ, which seems to be the popular movement. Vader and Anakin were never able to see the big picture, but were able to adapt appropriately, it helped that he was the supposed "chosen one". I suppose it isn't so much how he acted but how he didn't act. I can't really think of one specific moment that would sell me on him being INTJ.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Keep in mind: Ni dom doesn't equal genius who will inevitably be able to figure out the "big picture."


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## Trajan117 (Mar 31, 2013)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> LOL! XD So true about inferior Se! In a far more realistic way, I can relate to this, in that I tend to presume that I'll always be able to deal with unexpected circumstances that arise the moment they arrive (due to the constant planning and improvisational nature of dom Ni, quite the contrary to Si), like a constant mind over matter state of mind. Even when something a bit unexpected happens, I still seem to rationalize this to my benefit in the situation and often instinctively consider the unexpected Se moment to be quite minor in comparison to some deeper, more devastating blow I concoct in my mind that I feel can never fully be reached. It definitely resembles "magical thinking," but isn't as insane as it might sound to non-Ni doms (maybe even auxes). It's just difficult to communicate without coming across as surreal. I find I get into this mindset most often when I'm taking tests (I think this would make Si doms suicidal). There are times when I feel like I want to affect the environment with brainpower alone to alter it to my own benefit, but only when I'm desperate and having Se issues, and I don't take myself seriously when I feel this way. There's no doubt characters like Vader are Ni doms though (I can't imagine any other type speaking like this and taking themselves seriously, especially S types).


But rather than it being inferior Se couldn't you also call it strong Si? Its possible he says things like its inevitible or that he will join us or die simply because he has surrendered to himself to darkness out of his fear and now he clings to it and feels that it will do the same to everyone and so there is no point in trying to fight against it. Its more the guardian like oppression thing where he has aligned himself to that cause and decides that it is better to work in its favor instead of rocking the boat. When he kills Windu he joins the darkside out of fear and knowing he can't go back now cuz he would be punished. He acted in a very short term sense rather than thinking ahead like an Ni person would.


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## Trajan117 (Mar 31, 2013)

Luke had to give Vader the courage to break away from the "safe option" and do the right thing for the future


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## Rafiki (Mar 11, 2012)

his best friend is a snake


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