# If Everyone Was Conventionally Attractive...



## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?) 
Is it more that physically attractive people grab the attention of us because they stand out in appearance from others? Or is external beauty apparent regardless of how ubiquitous it is within a group? maybe it's all just mathematics with the golden ratio....
Furthermore, would envy and discrimination based on looks dwindle if everyone looked beautiful / handsome? Or would it actually amplify it somehow? Would we be more narcissistic and image obsessed? Or less so because it's not even a worry anymore?
Or perhaps people would become more trusting of each other because our biases towards attractive people are to see them as more trustworthy?
Would people still feel insecure and try to do more crazy things to their appearance in order to stand out from the crowd? Would some even try to make themselves look what might be called "ugly" and that might strangely end up becoming the new desired look because it stands out as "unique"? Eh, I don't know about that last one. I'm aware beauty standards can evolve over time in quite unusual ways though.

Also would infidelity in relationships become much more of a growing fear? ("_You better not cheat on me with the 10 Brad Pitt lookin' motherfuckers in the neighborhood!_")

I get that's a lot of questions, don't worry about trying to answer them all.
A more personal question or two: How would you deal with this kind of world?
If you don't consider yourself particularly attractive in the conventional beauty sense, do you think it would make your life (dating or social) in general more easier if you were?

Personally speaking, I don't think I'm unattractive, but I'm not "Alpha Chad" or whatever the internet likes to call the optimal male humanoid. lmfao.
I think being more conventionally attractive though could in theory help me get dates easier I'm sure, it makes sense, but if the scenario was that everyone else was also hot-stuffs then that would kinda take away the advantage, no?


This feels like a weird topic now that I've written it out. lol Maybe it sounds ridiculous for any number of reasons, but I'm just entertaining the thought.


-- Going into more theoretical future-focused territory, you don't have to read my mumbo jumbo ---

* *





Part of what made me wonder this is that in the future designer babies will likely be more of a common thing, and even if you're not born as one of those I can imagine means to morph physical appearances with biotechnology and nanotech, genetic modifications or outright putting your brain into a synthetic body. Not to mention the reversal of aging. (There may one day be 400 year olds who don't look any older than 40 wandering around - that alone gives me many questions but this thread isn't really about that).
I wonder what it'd be like... where you're born guaranteed to look very attractive when you grow up because your parents wanted you to look "your best" to avoid social ostracism, insecurities or any other reasoning, as well intentioned as they may view it.
I'm trying to grasp the social implications of all this, but....

Even outside of genetic engineering, there's also good reason to believe future humans will appear a lot more homogeneous than today simply because of the globe becoming smaller with increased ease and speed of transportation and increased multiculturalism. At present you can already see the development of a global culture with more people connecting to the internet and the globalization of the economy. Things get more interconnected all the time.
This overarching global culture will perhaps in generations come to influence every connected national culture, possibly even swinging elections more than the nation's own media or traditional political establishment can. (but, now I feel like I'm getting into a tangent. Sorry).

Back to the point on beauty standards, one could say "ultimately, everyone has their subjective preferences on what's physically attractive to them, and that continues variation in the gene pool" and that's true enough, but I wonder how much of those preferences are genetic or based in nurturing, experience, environment and culture. 
Because if you were like a designer baby born into some future world where you and virtually everyone else is roughly matching the beauty standard of the now globalized culture thanks to advances in technology and what else I've mentioned and might've overlooked, then maybe preferences would become more universalized over time.
Perhaps people today express more variation in what their physical preferences are because the variation in physical appearance in the observable environment is more diverse. Maybe when we lived in little tribes in the wild our standards for physical attractiveness were quite limited (if there even was much of a standard beyond "they look fit enough to survive and produce strong offspring"). Since humans live in a larger more diverse populace now the variation within people's preferences seems quite expansive actually - the internet seems to indicate people will masturbate to nearly anything (hah). But as the populace gradually becomes more homogeneous or "beautified", perhaps you can expect these preferences to begin losing variation.

Or alternatively (and what I hope would be more likely), perhaps such future technologies could vastly expand the range of human appearances and variety of what humans express attraction towards, much greater than today. All manner of strange relationships could be formed.
Humans could very well end up dating cyborgs, AI / robots, clones, holograms and fictional virtual avatars. Hell, maybe even the aliens if they finally decide we're ready to join the enlightened galactic federation of reasonably advanced planets.
Given this, that would seem to negate the conception of a "conventional" beauty standard as is understood today. 

In the present though without all this talk about fancy technology, people can only really look like themselves and most can't really do much to make themselves look like some idealized standard of beauty of their culture, even though many certainly try their best to replicate the essence of it with their fashion, makeup, plastic surgery, instagram filters or what not.
Most people have something they or others consider a physical "imperfection" but potential mates are willing to overlook those imperfections if they're not a big deal to them or have other traits the people find attractive. Those imperfections can be part of what makes someone attractive to them actually.
So... I don't know, I just wonder if humans would gradually lose touch of this in this world I'm trying to paint a picture of.

This all might be too theoretical about some far future scenario that's not too relevant at the present time. I don't know what possessed me to write all this.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

if everyone was "hot"... there would still be personal preferences to factor in. not all hotties are created equal






and kinks for social attributes


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## KindaSnob! (Nov 15, 2020)

I agree with above poster. Plus, hot people are hot whatever happens, i think.

Btw interesting topic! I once saw this (a bit offensive...?) Japanese skit accidentally... In that skit, government charges taxes to traditionally attractive (thin and slim) people to solve attractiveness inequality problem and people start to treat charged people real bad... One beauty queen suffer greatly while obesity get considered as new attractive trait. Then people started to try to get fat so they pay less taxes. Then almost whole population become fat.... So beauty standard reset again...


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I think it would separate the very image-obsessed, very physically motivated people from the rest.

There would still be people looking for a "trophy" partner who they could show off to others as beautiful. People would still have a higher value due to scarcity--like the "most beautiful" would have some kind of special status still--perhaps some superstitious beliefs surround them like they were lucky from God or they are somehow more evolved or superior to others.

As it is though, I think some of the physical pickiness is due to actual illness (or likeliness of it) which is another issue to me than the status/beauty/rarity thing.

Like people who are picky about things like bodyweight, wrinkles, and other physical characteristics--they are really indications of age which can show how long a person has to live (if they are at greater risk of health problems) and stuff.

And then I also suspect some of the knee-jerk responses we have might also be evolutionarily to avoid contagious diseases--such as looking for clear skin (as opposed to blotchy skin which could indicate a rash that could be contagious--it doesn't, usually, but it could be part of our archaic programming when we don't know someone).

But it would basically eliminate weight problems, skin problems, and aging to be "conventionally attractive" imo--and since all those can have real health impacts, I'd think it'd be a good thing.

That being said "weight problems" could actually be an evolutionary disadvantage to humans--because then we'd all get super fast metabolisms and eat ourselves out of house and home if there was a famine and we'd die really easy (that's why people are prone to weight gain--so they can survive famines). So in some ways becoming "conventionally attractive" could threaten humanity. Other benign, non-illness related stuff would also go under the bus, such as body hair--and all the women, at least, would have no more body hair anywhere? Which would be kind of a bummer imo.

I do wonder though, if society and the cosmetic industry would just raise the bar and make up new things to obsess over, like now we all have to have pink hair of the right hue or a perfectly symmetrical face or some stupid shit to be considered "normal."

I'd be down with eliminating aging after adulthood though--that would be a benefit, though birth control would need to be a huge priority of we didn't die or lived a super long time while fertile--maybe if humans also had a dramatically reduced fertility rate along with the elimination of aging.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

KindaSnob! said:


> I agree with above poster. Plus, hot people are hot whatever happens, i think.
> 
> Btw interesting topic! I once saw this (a bit offensive...?) Japanese skit accidentally... In that skit, government charges taxes to traditionally attractive (thin and slim) people to solve attractiveness inequality problem and people start to treat charged people real bad... One beauty queen suffer greatly while obesity get considered as new attractive trait. Then people started to try to get fat so they pay less taxes. Then almost whole population become fat.... So beauty standard reset again...


Really!? LOL I want to see that skit. But yeah, it's perfectly possible I suppose that nothing too much would change.
I just wonder if it would oversatuate the market (for lack of a better term) and desensitize us to physical looks. Because too much of a good thing does tend to depreciate its value. Like.... for example, on the internet I see plenty of pictures of many cute and attractive females (and guys) but after a while you almost kinda think.... "well, you guys are nice looking, I'm sure you would stand out to me if I saw you in public, but online in a sea of many other attractive looking people you almost kinda blur into eachother." I don't know if I'm making any sense. lol but thanks! I'm glad you find it interesting.


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## KindaSnob! (Nov 15, 2020)

Hexigoon said:


> Really!? LOL I want to see that skit. But yeah, it's perfectly possible I suppose that nothing too much would change.
> I just wonder if it would oversatuate the market (for lack of a better term) and desensitize us to physical looks. Because too much of a good thing does tend to depreciate its value. Like.... for example, on the internet I see plenty of pictures of many cute and attractive females (and guys) but after a while you almost kinda think.... "well, you guys are nice looking, I'm sure you would stand out to me if I saw you in public, but online in a sea of many other attractive looking people you almost kinda blur into eachother." I don't know if I'm making any sense. lol but thanks! I'm glad you find it interesting.


I just found it (one with commentary) but remembered it all wrong... What's wrong with my brain? 😅
I made up that offensive skit only in my mind. My brain is weird place.
Sorry for misinformation.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

WickerDeer said:


> I think it would separate the very image-obsessed, very physically motivated people from the rest.
> 
> There would still be people looking for a "trophy" partner who they could show off to others as beautiful. People would still have a higher value due to scarcity--like the "most beautiful" would have some kind of special status still--perhaps some superstitious beliefs surround them like they were lucky from God or they are somehow more evolved or superior to others.
> 
> ...


That's interesting Wicker, I didn't think about that, how the cosmetic industry would respond and operate... This kinda sounds like the premise of a nightmarish Black Mirror episode or something.


Oh and the thing that's usually theorized when it comes to the elimination of aging in regards to the overpopulation concerns is women would likely choose to have children much later in life because they wouldn't have to fear about the ticking biological clock taking away their opportunity. Eliminating aging would mean reversing things like menopause and any other age related biological deterioration, otherwise that would kinda suck.
Oh and by the time we'd see people living significantly longer than they do today (say like the first people to live to 200 years old) it would be reasonable to assume the carrying capacity of the planet would've increased due to advances in other technologies like renewables, lab grown meat/ agriculture, cleaner travel, and what not.





KindaSnob! said:


> I just found it (one with commentary) but remembered it all wrong... What's wrong with my brain? 😅
> I made up that offensive skit only in my mind. My brain is weird place.
> Sorry for misinformation.


Hahaha! Don't worry about it, I misremember things too all the time! (I even misremembered how to spell time apparently lmfao). The video still made me laugh, though I'm sure it's trying to get at an important lesson and social commentary.


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## mia-me (Feb 5, 2021)

Humanity can get accustomed to anything. If everyone were conventionally attractive, which will happen premised on genetic tinkering in the future, the bar will be raised time and again. Once the bar can't go any higher, it'll be a race to difference and/or the bottom. Corporations have every reason to keep everyone insecure since that's what makes people return for beauty products and services.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Hexigoon said:


> ... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?)
> Is it more that physically attractive people grab the attention of us because they stand out in appearance from others? Or is external beauty apparent regardless of how ubiquitous it is within a group? maybe it's all just mathematics with the golden ratio....
> Furthermore, would envy and discrimination based on looks dwindle if everyone looked beautiful / handsome? Or would it actually amplify it somehow? Would we be more narcissistic and image obsessed? Or less so because it's not even a worry anymore?
> Or perhaps people would become more trusting of each other because our biases towards attractive people are to see them as more trustworthy?
> ...


Interesting topic @*Hexigoon!*

From my personal experience... I always thought I was kinda ugly growing up. I was an Asian kid amongst white people. I just accepted that I was ugly, and that my eyes or whatever were different. Also went to a boy school.

Later on in life, people told me I looked like Keanu Reeves, and kept hearing that I was "hot" or something. Gave me a little confidence boost of course. But I still sucked at picking up chicks (probably lack of early practice or whatever). I never earned my look, so I feel rather ambivalent. Also being an INFJ, I craved deeper connection and communication, so I naturally wanted a girl I can talk to, but they always ended up friend-zoning me! And the girls that were attracted to me, I found too shallow and didn't really like them! I've come to learn that a "deep respectful communication" with a girl guarantees the friend-zone. Heck I was even ok with being with a chick that wasn't the hottest of the hot, but she got all jealous saying "I don't want to be with you because I will be the ugly girl with the hot guy and people will talk about it." - Good looks actually got in the way of this relationship.

_palm face_

Some guys said that if they had my looks, they'd use it to their full advantage and pick up heaps of chicks. And I'm thinking "Whatever man.". I get complimented the most by asian or Korean guys (sometimes even white guys to my surprise) I hear Korean culture tends to idolize good looks to the point where cosmetic surgery is kinda normal. I hear more compliments from girls WITH partners who are friendly and flirty, more than single girls. Some girls say they wish they had skin like mine so they don't need to put on makeup.

I feel like good looks on an INFJ guy is almost useless. I think girls are more attracted to a fun, charming, charismatic personality than good looks. I always hear that girls like a guy that can make them laugh. But INFJs make girls "think"... not great. I'm just the typical shy, awkward, introverted, thought provoking INFJ. (I'm sure there were girls out there that would like this... but I didn't put myself out there enough... being an introvert and all)

Also found it easier to pick up chicks after doing some stage performance like a rap or comedy routine, a funny speech. I found those things work the best. But damn I hate doing those things. Passively looking good isn’t that attractive for a guy. It needs to be activated somehow, a proof of courage and charisma... What better way than overcoming stage fright?

Man... I sound like vain chump.

I still don't think I'm THAAAAT hot? I feel average. I'm sure if girls here can see my face they'd think the same, or "Not their type". But even if I was #1 hottest guy in the world, it wouldn't make much of a difference. I would have to be ok with being a more shallow playboy type, act fun and charismatic, attract girls with personalities I don't like, but I'd be cringing and loathing myself so hard, I can't bring myself to do that. I even tried a few times... picked up a hottie at a party or wherever and was charming and stuff at the time, but when we sit down to chat, it was super awkward, and I lose interest... I just can't do it.

Hot girls on the other hand, can pick up guys with mainly their looks. They seriously don't need to rely on being as charming. But I guess, it depends on the kinda guy they want. They put themselves out there, wait for the right guy then accept.

It takes a certain type of person who can bring my natural charismatic side out of my shell a bit. But girls like that only exist in movies as the "Manic pixie dream girl". If a girl acted like MPDG to me, she's not sexually interested in me but just wants to be friends because she finds my views, perspectives, thoughts, my-mind, creativity "interesting".

Anyway, married now, 2 kids. Eventually all good. But wasn't dead easy.


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## cloudcake (Feb 6, 2021)

Has anyone else noticed that this is kind of happening in a way? Where I live I have observed this, especially among younger people.

Probably within the last 3 years I've seen more people that would be considered "conventionally attractive" around. We seem to have become more intelligent about the ways we can come closer to meeting the standard using makeup to augment eyebrows, lips, cheekbones, trimming beards to create illusion of jawline, clever haircuts to compliment face, clothing to accentuate just the right parts, surgery, fitness routines to change our body shape, etc.

I know these methods have been around for a while but I feel like they're especially prevalent now. It's also not just some people doing it, it seems like everyones doing the same things to look the same way. I find it creepy how similar everyone looks.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

cloudcake said:


> Has anyone else noticed that this is kind of happening in a way? Where I live I have observed this, especially among younger people.
> 
> Probably within the last 3 years I've seen more people that would be considered "conventionally attractive" around. We seem to have become more intelligent about the ways we can come closer to meeting the standard using makeup to augment eyebrows, lips, cheekbones, trimming beards to create illusion of jawline, clever haircuts to compliment face, clothing to accentuate just the right parts, surgery, fitness routines to change our body shape, etc.
> 
> I know these methods have been around for a while but I feel like they're especially prevalent now. It's also not just some people doing it, it seems like everyones doing the same things to look the same way. I find it creepy how similar everyone looks.


I'm sure we've all seen these sorts of before/after images:
That Asian Doll look tho... (so popular)... feels like misleading advertising! LOL!


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

mia-me said:


> Humanity can get accustomed to anything. If everyone were conventionally attractive, which will happen premised on genetic tinkering in the future, the bar will be raised time and again. Once the bar can't go any higher, it'll be a race to difference and/or the bottom. Corporations have every reason to keep everyone insecure since that's what makes people return for beauty products and services.


Yes true enough that corporations would likely try to find a way to keep us insecure. Kinda as Wicker mentioned. It makes me wonder what diabolical plans they could come up with in this scenario.




Joe Black said:


> Interesting topic @*Hexigoon!*
> 
> From my personal experience... I always thought I was kinda ugly growing up. I was an Asian kid amongst white people. I just accepted that I was ugly, and that my eyes or whatever were different. Also went to a boy school.
> 
> ...


Thank you Joe. I empathize quite a bit with that.

It is kinda weird being an INFJ guy in the dating world. You have plenty of traits females wish for in men but we still kinda suck at dating anyway because I don't think we're typically super assertive or don't even know what we're necessarily looking for in a partner. I question if what I'm looking for even exists.... All I know is my standards are quite high even though I find it hard to explain what these standards even are. How is it possible to describe one's soul mate when you haven't even met them? I'd just know it when I'd find it I suppose... Yet, I don't go out too much and make first moves easy unless I'm very sure it's going to go well and know that they like me a lot. Girls would need to have patience or forwardness with someone like me perhaps and I don't know if many of them would want to bother when there are easier dates to get.

But yep, girls like a guy who can make them laugh for sure. I do enjoy making a girl laugh, although it is often out of my own self-deprecation or by being a goof. I do have to be comfortable with them in order to open up like that...

Haha coincidence, I have a love for the manic pixie dream girl archetype too, I think because I'd be able to click with a girl like that as well, they're kinda unusual like me. Plus the ones I've seen are often tomboyish, and I always had an attraction to the more tomboyish girls growing up.

It's good you found someone though! Sounds like you've been through a lot of trial and error. I do like to think everyone has someone out there for them and it will come when the time is ready.



cloudcake said:


> Has anyone else noticed that this is kind of happening in a way? Where I live I have observed this, especially among younger people.
> 
> Probably within the last 3 years I've seen more people that would be considered "conventionally attractive" around. We seem to have become more intelligent about the ways we can come closer to meeting the standard using makeup to augment eyebrows, lips, cheekbones, trimming beards to create illusion of jawline, clever haircuts to compliment face, clothing to accentuate just the right parts, surgery, fitness routines to change our body shape, etc.
> 
> I know these methods have been around for a while but I feel like they're especially prevalent now. It's also not just some people doing it, it seems like everyones doing the same things to look the same way. I find it creepy how similar everyone looks.


Oh yes, I am glad I'm not the only one who's noticing a trend there. It's a little disturbingly offputting when I think about this scenario. It would be freaky being in a world where everyone looked the same except you and you're the only one who's sticking out like a sore thumb in public... and then they all start staring at you for sticking out... This would make an interesting concept for a horror movie. Haha


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Hexigoon said:


> Haha coincidence, I have a love for the manic pixie dream girl archetype too, I think because I'd be able to click with a girl like that as well, they're kinda unusual like me. Plus the ones I've seen are often tomboyish, and I always had an attraction to the more tomboyish girls growing up.


IKR!

I've seen these Youtuers analyse this trope. They say it's a wish fulfillment for those guys out there that are kinda non-proactive, shy, un-assertive, non-charismatic, non-fun-types, weird, alternative, and wish that a like-minded weird girl would just magically come along and be interested in the guy as if she can see him for the awesome person he really is, deep down, without him having to life a finger or prove himself, and she helps him come out of his shell with her zany-ness.

Good that we acknowledge that it's just a fantasy wish-fulfillment. Not a realistic expectation at all.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Joe Black said:


> IKR!
> 
> I've seen these Youtuers analyse this trope. They say it's a wish fulfillment for those guys out there that are kinda non-proactive, shy, un-assertive, non-charismatic, non-fun-types, weird, alternative, and wish that a like-minded weird girl would just magically come along and be interested in the guy as if she can see him for the awesome person he really is, deep down, without him having to life a finger or prove himself, and she helps him come out of his shell with her zany-ness.
> 
> Good that we acknowledge that it's just a fantasy wish-fulfillment. Not a realistic expectation at all.


Aw really? That's what it all means? Darn... I like being understood but hate being exposed. Hahaha, well, y'know, a guy can dream, right? But hey, at least cute like-minded Manic Pixie Dream Girl is more of an innocent fantasy girl to have than is true with a lot of other male wish-fulfillment.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Hexigoon said:


> Aw really? That's what it all means? Darn... I like being understood but hate being exposed. Hahaha, well, y'know, a guy can dream, right? But hey, at least cute like-minded Manic Pixie Dream Girl is more of an innocent fantasy girl to have than is true with a lot of other male wish-fulfillment.


Sorry dude! lol The fantasy plucks at my heartstrings too. So long as we're self aware about it.
Actually kinda sounds like an INFJ fantasy... to be understood and appreciated unconditionally for the weirdness we are.

Fun fact... the manic-pixie-dream-guy.... Jack from Titanic. lol


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

I think conventions would just shift towards higher standards.
Differences that we perceive as too unimportant will be signified, scaled.
Conventions will exist as long as differences will.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Joe Black said:


> Sorry dude! lol The fantasy plucks at my heartstrings too. So long as we're self aware about it.
> Actually kinda sounds like an INFJ fantasy... to be understood and appreciated unconditionally for the weirdness we are.
> 
> Fun fact... the manic-pixie-dream-guy.... Jack from Titanic. lol


Haha nah don't worry, it's just those youtubers who'll get my wrath for revealing too much. jk 
But yeah pretty much. Still, maybe a ENxP girl would at least be the closest to this archetype? .

Oh yeah! I can see that with how he gets Rose to open up enough to have him draw her like one of his French girls. 🤭


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Hexigoon said:


> Haha nah don't worry, it's just those youtubers who'll get my wrath for revealing too much. jk
> But yeah pretty much. Still, maybe a ENxP girl would at least be the closest to this archetype? .
> 
> Oh yeah! I can see that with how he gets Rose to open up enough to have him draw her like one of his French girls. 🤭


Oh yea.. ENFP is the classic favourite match for INFJ... no wonder!
It's all coming together!
(Just check out the functions)


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## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Some guys are repulsive (to some women) because of their manner even if outwardly attractive (to those women). And personality can make a guy a lot more attractive.


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## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Joe Black said:


> Oh yea.. ENFP is the classic favourite match for INFJ... no wonder!
> It's all coming together!
> (Just check out the functions)


I don't get this. Who are INTPs/ ENTPs supposed to match with? If an INFJ/ ENFJ is interested in an INTP and an ENFP comes along, the INFJ will drop the INTP because the ENFP will push the INTP out of the way.

Can someone tell me why there is NO match for an INTP? Except maybe ENTJ although that's far too much NT, so seems almost pointless as far as growth goes.

Sorry if this upsets anyone, but it's a genuine question and I would prefer the NFPs just slid past this post please and thank you.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Bella2016 said:


> I don't get this. Who are INTPs/ ENTPs supposed to match with? If an INFJ/ ENFJ is interested in an INTP and an ENFP comes along, the INFJ will drop the INTP because the ENFP will push the INTP out of the way.
> 
> Can someone tell me why there is NO match for an INTP? Except maybe ENTJ although that's far too much NT, so seems almost pointless as far as growth goes.
> 
> Sorry if this upsets anyone, but it's a genuine question and I would prefer the NFPs just slid past this post please and thank you.


Hi, I'm married to an ISTJ, not ENFP (as people so popularly theorize).

I hear INTP and INTJs get along?


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## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Joe Black said:


> Hi, I'm married to an ISTJ, not ENFP (as people so popularly theorize).
> 
> I hear INTP and INTJs get along?


I said, no room for personal growth. And yes, get along is all it is. I guess it's more than a lot of people seem to manage though.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Hexigoon said:


> ... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?)
> Is it more that physically attractive people grab the attention of us because they stand out in appearance from others? Or is external beauty apparent regardless of how ubiquitous it is within a group? maybe it's all just mathematics with the golden ratio....
> Furthermore, would envy and discrimination based on looks dwindle if everyone looked beautiful / handsome? Or would it actually amplify it somehow? Would we be more narcissistic and image obsessed? Or less so because it's not even a worry anymore?
> Or perhaps people would become more trusting of each other because our biases towards attractive people are to see them as more trustworthy?
> ...


*You are horrifying to look at yes, but that's a good thing: When you're ugly and someone loves you, you know they love you for who you are.*


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

Bella2016 said:


> I don't get this. Who are INTPs/ ENTPs supposed to match with? If an INFJ/ ENFJ is interested in an INTP and an ENFP comes along, the INFJ will drop the INTP because the ENFP will push the INTP out of the way.
> 
> Can someone tell me why there is NO match for an INTP? Except maybe ENTJ although that's far too much NT, so seems almost pointless as far as growth goes.
> 
> Sorry if this upsets anyone, but it's a genuine question and I would prefer the NFPs just slid past this post please and thank you.


Oh I'd love to see a properly stuttering INTP female / sociopathic robert-california-style ENFJ romance!


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

IDK if it's just me, but seems like for most people it's enough to avoid being _unattractive _rather than be _attractive?_


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

Contrary to the impression usually given by animal films, which only like to show what is pleasurable to watch, sexual coercion is all too familiar in the animal kingdom. The increase in human physical attractiveness will increase the opportunities for sexual coercion with highly attractive females, which could lead to an increase in sexual coercion, to which the well-known male need for variety should also contribute.


*T. H. Clutton-Brock and G. A. Parker: Sexual Coercion in Animal Societies*

Interest in sexual selection has focused on two ways in which males compete for females: inter- male competition for mates, including sperm competition; and male displays that encourage females to select them as mating partners. However, sexual competition can take other forms which can also have important evolutionary consequences. In particular, males may coerce females to mate with them and sexual coercion should probably be regarded as a third form of sexual selection, on a level with intra-sexual competition and inter-sexual mate choice (Smuts & Smuts 1993). There are three main forms of sexual coercion: *(1) forced copulation*, where a male uses superior speed or strength to catch and physically restrain a female while he copulates with her by force; *(2) harassment*, where repeated attempts to copulate by males have costs to females which induce them to mate immediately; and *(3) intimidation*, where males punish females that refuse to mate with them, thereby raising the chances that they will accept them as mates at some stage in the future. …

*Forced copulation*

In a variety of animal species, individual males pursue females and, if they can catch them, restrain them and force them to copulate (Thornhill & Alcock 1983; Westneat et al. 1990; Smuts & Smuts 1993). For example, in wild orangutans, _Pongo pygmaeus_, most copulations by subadult males and almost half of all copulations by adult males occur after ﬁerce female resistance has been violently overcome by the male (Mitani 1985). Similar cases of forced copulation have been observed in other vertebrates (McKinney et al. 1983; Emlen & Wrege 1986; Westneat et al. 1990) as well as in invertebrates (e.g. Thornhill 1980; Arnqvist 1989). By contrast, forced copulation appears to be rare or absent in species where a single male can control mating access to one or more females eﬀectively (Smuts & Smuts 1993). Under these circumstances, males may increase their ﬁtness by waiting until females are ready to mate with them, while females may gain little by consistently refusing mating attempts. …

*Harassment*

In many animal species, individual males that locate potentially receptive females court and attempt to mate until the female either leaves or copulates with them (Thornhill & Alcock 1983). For example, in the small tortoiseshell butterﬂy, _Aglais urticae_, males persistently court females, repeatedly tapping with their antennae until the female drops down into the vegetation, followed by the male who may then achieve a mating (Baker 1972). Similar behaviour is common throughout the animal kingdom. Fallow bucks, _Dama dama_, for example, persistently court and attempt to mate with females that initially reject their advances (Clutton-Brock et al. 1988). Repeated courtship is likely to have costs to both sexes, including loss of feeding time, energy expenditure and increased risk of predation (see below). Some of these costs will aﬀect both the male and the female but, especially where males are substantially larger than females, repeated courtship may commonly aﬀect the female more than the male. For example, in northern elephant seals, _Mirounga angustirostris_, where males may be up to eight times the weight of females, females run a risk of being crushed by the male (Le Boeuf & Mesnick 1991; Mesnick & Le Boeuf 1991). In sea otters, _Enhydra lutris_, males hold mating partners by the nose with their teeth or claws, often injuring them and, sometimes, drowning them during mating (Mestel 1994). Females mating with in- experienced males may also risk being harmed: in red deer, _Cervus elaphus_, hinds are sometimes killed by being served in the rectum by in- experienced males (F. E. Guinness, personal communication). …

*Intimidation and Punishment*

In some animals, males punish females that refuse to associate with them, or that associate with other males, with various forms of physical violence (Smuts 1986b; Westneat et al. 1990; Smuts & Smuts 1993). Male red and fallow deer will prod straying females with their antlers (Clutton-Brock et al. 1982, 1992). Male hamadryas baboons, _Papio hamadryas_, that defend harems will initially threaten females that stray with an eyebrow ﬂash, but if they fail to return immediately will bite them on the neck (Kummer 1968). Goodall (1986) describes how male chimpanzees, _Pan troglodytes_, will repeatedly attack females in the early stages of consort formation until they become more cooperative and follow the male closely.

Males will also punish females that refuse their mating attempts. In most of the social primates that live in multi-male groups, males sometimes attack females that reject their attempts to mate, hitting or biting them (Nadler 1982, 1988; Nadler & Miller 1982; Smuts & Smuts 1993). Dominant male primates may also punish females for approaching, consorting or mating with subordinates or with males from other groups (de Waal 1982; Lindburg 1983; Goodall 1986; Manson 1991, 1994), while similar behaviour has been observed in some birds (e.g. Barash 1976; Westneat et al. 1990).

Aggression directed at receptive or near- receptive females may increase the chance that they will mate with aggressors, although it does not always do so (Nadler & Miller 1982; de Waal 1982; Smuts & Smuts 1993). Male Japanese macaques, _Macaca fuscata_, that show aggression to females during the mating season were signiﬁcantly more likely to mate than males that did not (Enomoto 1981). Detailed studies of captive lowland gorillas, Gorilla gorilla, suggested that females learned to present (for copulation) more frequently to more aggressive males, thereby reducing the frequency with which they were attacked. The higher rates of presenting to aggressive males did not arise because females were attracted to more aggressive males: females consistently avoided such males.

In many social primates, males occasionally attack females for little or no obvious reason. As primatologists have suggested, these attacks may intimidate females so that they are subsequently more likely to accept mating attempts from the aggressor (Smuts & Smuts 1993). For example, 83% of severe male attacks on females in wild chimpanzees observed by Goodall (1986) occurred for no obvious reason and involved cycling females whose sexual swellings had not yet reached full tumescence. Goodall suggested that females are intimidated by these attacks and are consequently more likely to mate with the aggressor (although there may also be a danger that aggressors may, where possible, be avoided).

There is widespread anecdotal evidence that male aggression can have substantial costs to females (Smuts & Smuts 1993). Serious wounding is not uncommon (Enomoto 1981; Teas 1984). For example, anoestrous female olive baboons, _Papio anubis_, are likely to be attacked around ﬁve times a week by males and, on average, are seriously wounded by males around once a year (Smuts 1985). Wounds may subsequently lead to death or abortion (Goodall 1986; Smuts & Smuts 1993). Males have been seen to kill females belonging to their harem or social group in red deer (F. E. Guinness, personal communication), grey langurs, _Presbytis entellus_ (Rajpurohit & Sommer 1991), rhesus macaques, _Macaca mulatta_ (Lindburg 1983) and baboons (Smuts & Smuts 1993).

Presumably, attacks on females are likely to have some cost to the males themselves. Females may sometimes retaliate in kind (see below). In addition, they may respond by withholding support for resident or dominant males in interactions with potential usurpers (e.g. de Waal 1982; Dunbar 1984). However, in most of the species where males are commonly aggressive to females, males are larger and clearly dominant to them, so that the costs of attacks to males may be small. Where this is not the case and relationships between the sexes are egalitarian (as in woolly spider monkeys, _Brachyteles arachnoides_) or females are dominant to males (as in spotted hyenas, _Crocuta crocuta_), male aggression to females is rare (Smuts & Smuts 1993).

The distribution of male aggression directed at females supports the suggestion that it has an intimidating function. Most of the social mammals where it is common are species that typically live in stable breeding groups containing several adult females and more than one breeding male. Under these circumstances, males cannot easily maintain exclusive access to females and are likely to beneﬁt if females mate readily with them and are reluctant to do so with other males. Similar attacks are rarely reported in monogamous species or in those living in harem groups where a single male defends the entire range of a group of females (Smuts & Smuts 1993). As in the case of harassment, other factors are likely to inﬂuence the capacity of males to intimidate females (Smuts & Smuts 1993) including the relative size of the two sexes; the strength of coalitions between females or between females and individual males (see below); the extent to which males rely on support from females to maintain their tenure of the breeding group; and the strength of alliances between males. …

*Conclusions*

It is clear that all three forms of male coercion (forced copulation, harassment and intimidation) are common in animal societies and that they can be expected to evolve to a point where they have appreciable costs to both sexes. Forced copulation is obviously restricted to species where males are capable of catching and restraining females; harassment is ubiquitous though, in some cases, territorial males can protect females from its consequences; and, like reciprocal altruism, intimidation may be restricted to species where males and females form stable social groups, with the eﬀect that individuals encounter each other in successive reproductive attempts. Intimidation is temporarily spiteful (Hamilton 1970), since an individual temporarily reduces its own ﬁtness by performing an act of punishment. As in the case of reciprocal altruism (Trivers 1971), the strategy is maintained by a deferred beneﬁt: in a longer time frame, the net consequences of the action (punishment) are beneﬁcial to the punisher, and punishment represents a selﬁsh strategy. …

DOI: 10.1006/anbe.1995.0166


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

8080 said:


> in wild orangutans, _Pongo pygmaeus_, most copulations by subadult males and almost half of all copulations by adult males occur after ﬁerce female resistance has been violently overcome by the male


Explains a lot of the women I've met to be honest.

Also, "Smuts & Smuts", sounds like a burlesque troupe...


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## Sidhe Draoi (Nov 25, 2016)

We would be in a very lame anime.
But at least we could start focusing more on peoples personalities.


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## Bella2016 (Mar 5, 2013)

Six said:


> Oh I'd love to see a properly stuttering INTP female / sociopathic robert-california-style ENFJ romance!


Maybe I'm no good at typing people, but the description above is nothing like an XNFJ/INTP relationship has looked to me.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Hexigoon said:


> ... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?)
> Is it more that physically attractive people grab the attention of us because they stand out in appearance from others? Or is external beauty apparent regardless of how ubiquitous it is within a group? maybe it's all just mathematics with the golden ratio....
> Furthermore, would envy and discrimination based on looks dwindle if everyone looked beautiful / handsome? Or would it actually amplify it somehow? Would we be more narcissistic and image obsessed? Or less so because it's not even a worry anymore?
> Or perhaps people would become more trusting of each other because our biases towards attractive people are to see them as more trustworthy?
> ...


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

tanstaafl28 said:


>


So if everyone's attractive, no one's attractive, and everyone would then need to rely on their personality and character alone to attract others? _gasp_

BTW, ref. Dorian Grey


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Hexigoon said:


> ... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?)
> Is it more that physically attractive people grab the attention of us because they stand out in appearance from others? Or is external beauty apparent regardless of how ubiquitous it is within a group? maybe it's all just mathematics with the golden ratio....
> Furthermore, would envy and discrimination based on looks dwindle if everyone looked beautiful / handsome? Or would it actually amplify it somehow? Would we be more narcissistic and image obsessed? Or less so because it's not even a worry anymore?
> Or perhaps people would become more trusting of each other because our biases towards attractive people are to see them as more trustworthy?
> ...


If everyone was conventionally attractive the dating scene wouldn't change much, because looks aren't everything. Don't get me wrong, looks are important, very important. Physical looks, a pleasant image, is what makes you attracted to someone. Beauty is certainly an attractive trait and an important one as virtually everyone takes care of their looks and image, but there are more things to attraction, it's about what you have to offer in other areas as well such as personality and character.

Some women want an empathetic man who thinks about and wants to make others feel good, someone who is understanding and not judgmental. A man who wants to make others feel good and is fair. Good people appreciate kindness in others. Be civilized, not aggressive or brutal, and the right people will appreciate it. And honest, they appreciate that too. And supportive of other people. To have a good character with sensitivity makes you a better person. This is not a trait you can have simply by having good looks. Other women want a sensitive soul with depth, a gentle person. The type who is interested in the feeling, the type who wants a relationship with a deep connection and care for one another.

Yes, looks matter, but not only looks matter. People are not only looks. Some women want an intelligent man, a polite and respectful man, a funny man, one who can talk about interesting subjects. Someone who has a moral code, and would not step on other people to get things his way. There are lots of traits that are not limited to looks.

If you want to be something in life you have to work for it. Not even love comes freely, dating interests won't just love you because you are you like your parents, you need to have something to offer that makes people feel great around you so that they'll want to be in a relationship with you.

What makes you attractive? Of course, being polite and respectful is not enough to get people to swarm over you, you have to be attractive in other ways, to have something to offer that makes them want to be with you and I don't mean money or cars, but to be polite and respectful is the necessary minimum.

Okay, there's the stereotype of _"bad guys get the girls"_, but it depends on the type of woman and even in those cases the bad guys don't treat the woman bad, they treat other people bad, and they have something that makes them attractive: guts, initiative, confidence, leadership, dignity. The being a jerk part is a tolerated not the main attribute. And not every woman would go for a primitive, not every woman is looking for physical strength in a mate.

Of course its important to be nice, not selfish and respectful, but you can be very nice yet come across as boring. To not be boring you don't have to be a stand-up comedian or entertainer, but at least try to make a fun and pleasant conversation and to take feedback from them when they're not interested in a certain subject and change it.

I don't exactly know what you have to do, probably ask them about their hobbies without asking them about their hobbies, talk about him or things that interest him while also being interesting to you and keep it lighthearted with small jokes. People light up when they talk about subjects that fascinate them.

If you want a 10, you need to have something to offer. If you're a 7 looking for a 10, you'll have a hard time finding one who says yes and keeping one who says yes. Dating doesn't mean you have to marry that person, it's a process to find out who you are compatible with, who you get along and have a great time with, you cannot know this from the first months of a relationship. The best thing you can do is increase your dating value.

We love some but not other people for certain reasons, because they have something to offer, certain qualities that makes us feel good around them, either in how you make him feel or the values you exhibit, even when we are not aware of those things. It can grow into care for that other person, as in love, but initially we care about looks, then character and personality.

Even if someone was conventionally attractive. Or even better. If everyone was equally handsome, you will need to have something to offer. Something that differentiates you from the rest, something that makes you a pleasant presence to be around. Because being nice for example, while it's a good quality, it doesn't make much of a difference. There are 20 others nice people next to you in a room. You can go the extra mile and differentiate yourself there was well, which is why I said that some women want an empathetic man who thinks about and wants to make others feel good and to have a good character with sensitivity makes you a better person.

But apart from looks, do you think you have a lot to offer? How do you come across?

Just as you see a lot of types of women and pick only what you want best, so do women. They pick you over someone else or someone else over you because you are a better choice. That doesn't mean love isn't real and it's all mathematics, the feeling is there, but the feeling is there because reasons, otherwise we would love everyone equally.

You surely have something that interests you, something that you like doing. If not, then start doing new stuff you have never done before. I suggest working out at a gym, it's healthy. Look online for the exercises, eventually you may start to exchange a word or 2 with the people there and talk about this. But when I said something to offer, I didn't mean specifically hobbies, I meant things that make you interesting, a pleasant presence to be around, as I mentioned above. It's supply and demand with people as well. It sounds cold, but who are you more interested in, a hot girl or that hobo? who do you want to work for you in your company, a skilled man or that hobo? who do you love more, your mother or a hobo? Sadly, the value of some people is determined exclusively by their utility. It's a cold truth but one that makes you a better person, since you will stop demanding things simply for existing, and you will realize that in order to get you need to have something of use.

Personally, I think that if you're funny, look okay as in average and have common interests you should be good. As for how to make them like you. I think you have to show you like them in the first place. And I think it's better to start off with a friendly attitude rather than heading straight for a relationship.

As humans tend to mirror each other's behavior, we tend to behave nicely with those that behave nicely with us, as a rule of thumb. But not in a _"I love you on the first date"_ way, that just comes across as desperate. Coming across as obsessed is a major red flag, you can be strong but good and sweet as a person. Don't be naive but don't be a jerk either.

I think it's important to be a healthy individual who is strong but not selfish and knows how to deal with conflict and has willpower. Be strong mentally and phystically. Think what they think. Impress people and conduct appropriately. But then again there's the saying that the more you try to impress the less you will impress, so it's up to you. If someone upsets you, try to be reasonable and talk to them. If someone is upset by you, don't answer with the same coin, that will only start a fire, instead ask them why are they upset and if in all fairness you find yourself to be in the wrong, apologise and say that you won't do it again.

If you don't have initiative, you will lose a lot of opportunities in life. If you always avoid conflict, you will end up being used. When someone challenges you, you need to learn to give good replies so that you win the talk fight with a good reply, leave them with no reply. You don't need to be energetic all the time or the life of the party, you just need to have a friendly attitude and that's it. If someone isn't friendly with you in return, ignore them, leave them be and move on.

Most people aren't successful. Most people aren't happy on Facebook. They just want to seem happy on social media to impress others. Aim to improve yourself, to get good, to impress yourself, to become better. You will not always feel like it, but do it even when you don't feel like it, in the long-term it will worth it. Clean up your room. It will help you be more organized and motivated. Our enviroment has an influence on us. Text your friends to go out. Call them, ask them what they are doing, and ask them if they want to go out somewhere for a drink or some fun.

You should not think what your loved ones think of you, as you shouldn't always follow the pressure from your parents or other people, but be autonomous and independent, make your own choices, but you should think what you think of you in the first place. If you are aware that you did something wrong and that needs to change, that is a good thing. If you're content with living disorganized and miserable, you won't change.

When you let others down, the people you care about, which is not a light statement, I'm sure you regret it, you don't have to redeem yourself for them, since you should now follow their pressure, but you should redeem yourself for you. Instead of looking for ways to improve yourself, to impress yourself, you are self-loathing. The people who care about and value you, think what they think, they wouldn't want to see you consumed by laziness but become someone that will impress and inspire them. Do it for them. They would want you to become a person of success. Exceed their expectations and do something with your life.

There is no point crying over yourself, feeling sorry for yourself. It's not about how you look or feel, its about the attitude, you need to have a determined attitude. There's no point to ponder over the way you feel or your failures. Your past depressive experiences will never go away. There's no point to ponder over the past, it doesn't do you any good, it's not good for you. Accept it, learn from it, but don't fight it because ultimately you can't control it. You can't control the past, but you have absolute control over your present and future. If you always dwell upon the past, it will never help you, it's not good for you, let it go and focus on where you are and where you want to be.

As for willpower, most people have terrible lives not because of lack of brains but because of lack of willpower. You have to be strong mentally and physically. In a study, willpower was the no.1 factor for success, above knowledge and IQ. You need willpower to get good and fix the terrible state of your life. If you ever want to exceed yourself, improve yourself, impress yourself, to learn new skills and become more skilled than you previously were, you need willpower. You also need willpower for healthy habbits and a healthy routine.

In short, if everyone was conventionally attractive the dating scene would change a bit but not too much, because looks are not everything, they are important but not everything. You just eliminate looks out of the equation, but you still remain with all other traits humans have.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I fear the the day designer babies and robot humans become a popular thing....

The ethics of it...

Would it be considered eugenics but in a different form?

Oh and to answer your question, of I was conventionally attractive I think it would help in some ways such as:
Getting a new job,
People being polite to you,
People actually doing their job and serve you in a clothing store,
More chance of a date,
Things like that.

There are cons though, which are just awful, such as:
Being stared at,
Being stalked,
Getting cat calls,
Lots of unsolicited messages.
Being constantly hit on by 60-year old men.

So in _some_ ways I'm happy I'm not attractive, but in other ways I'm not.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Joe Black said:


> I'm sure we've all seen these sorts of before/after images:
> That Asian Doll look tho... (so popular)... feels like misleading advertising! LOL!
> 
> View attachment 873957
> ...


Honestly I think the girl in the first picture is pretty enough. She doesn't need that make up.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Bella2016 said:


> Some guys are repulsive (to some women) because of their manner even if outwardly attractive (to those women). And personality can make a guy a lot more attractive.


This too. Some man can be the hottest guy in the room, but if any trash comes out of his mouth it's like, "nope you're a knob, bye".


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Bella2016 said:


> I don't get this. Who are INTPs/ ENTPs supposed to match with? If an INFJ/ ENFJ is interested in an INTP and an ENFP comes along, the INFJ will drop the INTP because the ENFP will push the INTP out of the way.
> 
> Can someone tell me why there is NO match for an INTP? Except maybe ENTJ although that's far too much NT, so seems almost pointless as far as growth goes.
> 
> Sorry if this upsets anyone, but it's a genuine question and I would prefer the NFPs just slid past this post please and thank you.


I think INFPs get along with INTPs.

Well... Maybe. I only know a 60 something lady INTP, so that's probably not much help.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

You don't need to theorize this, just look at anime, all girls in animes are generally drawn the same, the only difference is hair colour and style so they're all "hot". What you will notice is once all anime girls are hot, guys who watch anime start to pick the one with the best personality since physical appearance are all above standard.


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## Six (Oct 14, 2019)

ENTJudgement said:


> You don't need to theorize this, just look at anime, all girls in animes are generally drawn the same, the only difference is hair colour and style so they're all "hot". What you will notice is once all anime girls are hot, guys who watch anime start to pick the one with the best personality since physical appearance are all above standard.


_For quite some time now, I've had this lingering suspicion that the Japanese government created anime, as a sort of weaponized autism, to be unleashed quietly on america in an attempt to rot our youth and create an entirely un-fuck-able generation of kids who can't carry on their family lines:_










_Some ol' Generation Lost, SuperVillain SHIT.

Why would they do that? Uh, I don't know, ask fucking Nagasaki - IT ADDS UP.

It would have been a great plan, too - had it not BACKFIRED SO SPECTACULARLY LOL what with Japan now being the mecca for weebs and SEX WEIRDOS.

YOU GUYS DID IT I'M PROUD OF YOU LOL!_






In all seriousness however what I find so unwholesome / creepy about anime is actually what you're saying:










The saccharin depiction of people's looks isn't nearly as disturbing as the saccharin depictions of personality. /\ This "dere" scale illustrates it perfectly:

A. She's psychotically obsessed with you.
B. She's in denial about how desperately obsessed with you she is.
C. Everything in between.

There's none of the actual thrill of genuinely women being utterly disinterested in or disgusted by you which should be there to wound and hurt you - as in real life, it's disgusting escapism.










I wonder if people weren't so obsessed and challenged by the limits of their own physicality they wouldn't start becoming just as self-abused abominations in terms of how they present their personalities as they do with their looks.

Ted Chiang wrote a novella called Liking What You See: A Documentary (where people consent to adopting "Callignosia" - a neurological inability to perceive human beauty :-

"Liking What You See: A Documentary", by Ted Chiang

_Maria deSouza, third-year student, President of the Students for Equality Everywhere (SEE):

Our goal is very simple. Pembleton University has a Code of Ethical Conduct, one that was created by the students themselves, and that all incoming students agree to follow when they enroll. The initiative that we've sponsored would add a provision to the code, requiring students to adopt calliagnosia as long as they're enrolled.

What prompted us to do this now was the release of a spex version of Visage. That's the software that, when you look at people through your spex, shows you what they'd look like with cosmetic surgery. It became a form of entertainment among a certain crowd, and a lot of college students found it offensive. When people started talking about it as a symptom of a deeper societal problem, we thought the timing was right for us to sponsor this initiative.

The deeper societal problem is lookism. For decades people've been willing to talk about racism and sexism, but they're still reluctant to talk about lookism. Yet this prejudice against unattractive people is incredibly pervasive. People do it without even being taught by anyone, which is bad enough, but instead of combating this tendency, modern society actively reinforces it.

Educating people, raising their awareness about this issue, all of that is essential, but it's not enough. That's where technology comes in. Think of calliagnosia as a kind of assisted maturity. It lets you do what you know you should: ignore the surface, so you can look deeper.

We think it's time to bring calli into the mainstream. So far the calli movement has been a minor presence on college campuses, just another one of the special-interest causes. But Pembleton isn't like other colleges, and I think the students here are ready for calli. If the initiative succeeds here, we'll be setting an example for other colleges, and ultimately, society as a whole._

*The question posed is: If human society as a whole could make itself blind to human beauty - would humans choose freely to elect to have that blindness imposed upon themselves? After all what actual utility or use is there to human beauty which you can accurately or functionally define??*


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

8080 said:


> Contrary to the impression usually given by animal films, which only like to show what is pleasurable to watch, sexual coercion is all too familiar in the animal kingdom. The increase in human physical attractiveness will increase the opportunities for sexual coercion with highly attractive females, which could lead to an increase in sexual coercion, to which the well-known male need for variety should also contribute.
> 
> 
> *T. H. Clutton-Brock and G. A. Parker: Sexual Coercion in Animal Societies*
> ...


Ok this is interesting (and kinda disturbing) but what exactly is your point by saying it's beneficial to the punisher in the end?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Six said:


> _For quite some time now, I've had this lingering suspicion that the Japanese government created anime, as a sort of weaponized autism, to be unleashed quietly on america in an attempt to rot our youth and create an entirely un-fuck-able generation of kids who can't carry on their family lines:_
> 
> View attachment 875840


I know you're probably joking but in case you weren't, you are mistaken if that is your theory, the Japanese govt are aiming to achieve the exact opposite effect as the aging boomer generation does not have enough people in the workforce to pay enough tax for their pensions. Japan has one of the lowest birthrates in the world and notably lower than replacement levels.

The reason for these body pillows is to replace women for the bottom 50% of men as most modern women no longer require men for survival (in this currently society) but are still extremely hypergamous, add the online dating scene into the mix and all of a sudden every woman only has eyes for the top 10% of men in the world which are constantly in their faces either on social media, streaming, movies etc...

So as a solution some of the bottom 50% of men that can't deal with the lack of physical intimacy have started to gravitate towards body pillows, sex dolls and sex bots in the future once the tech arrives.



Six said:


> In all seriousness however what I find so unwholesome / creepy about anime is actually what you're saying:
> 
> View attachment 875841
> 
> ...


The beauty of anime girls is in their predictability, they are categorized into one of the "deres" as you mention and rarely deviates from their classification i.e a Yandere girl is ALWAYS loyal to you and loves you no matter what. This is the same fantasy as what women have been reading in their fantasy romance books for years with perfect prince charming which is the top 0.0001% picking you, an average random girl out of 4 billion girls when in reality, a top 0.0001% guy behaves alot more similarly to Donald Trump coz he has options.

If you look at majority of marriages, the narrative is that the wife wants to change the husband and the husband just wants the wife to remain the same as she was when he married her, predictability is very appealing for men and unappealing for most women.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

There are plenty of women right now who are objectively attractive that I'm not attracted to even though I can clearly tell that they are very beautiful. And there are also a lot of women who are objectively average looking that I find physically irresistible.

If the world were to suddenly change to the one you're describing, several industries would take a huge financial hit. Without a universally accepted standard of beauty, women would spend a lot less money trying to meet those standards. That means billions if not trillions not being spent on make up, clothes, cosmetic surgery, wigs, extensions etc. Of course, this wouldn't last long. Some powerful and wealthy group would cease the opportunity and start the propaganda machine. Before long they'll have everyone agreeing on a generally unattainable beauty standard and women will once again start spending ludicrous amounts of money trying to keep up with the latest beauty trends.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

ENFPathetic said:


> There are plenty of women right now who are objectively attractive that I'm not attracted to even though I can clearly tell that they are very beautiful. And there are also a lot of women who are objectively average looking that I find physically irresistible.
> 
> If the world were to suddenly change to the one you're describing, several industries would take a huge financial hit. Without a universally accepted standard of beauty, women would spend a lot less money trying to meet those standards. That means billions if not trillions not being spent on make up, clothes, cosmetic surgery, wigs, extensions etc. Of course, this wouldn't last long. Some powerful and wealthy group would cease the opportunity and start the propaganda machine. Before long they'll have everyone agreeing on a generally unattainable beauty standard and women will once again start spending ludicrous amounts of money trying to keep up with the latest beauty trends.


It's also worth pointing out that what is considered physically attractive is mostly a cultural thing. The ideal woman was more chubby in the 20s and 30s, nowdays the ideal woman is skinny.

Beside that, there are always exceptions, people who don't like what is considered the ideal woman or man. The best thing to do in my opinion is become they way you like. You, as a man or woman, clearly have an idea what you think is best in a man or woman. Aspire to become your ideal image for your own gender. Why? Because similar people attract each other. If you like a certain type of man or woman and aspire to become that man/woman, you will attract people who also like that type of man/woman, in other words you will attract your type.

Beside looks, there's more to that to attraction and seduction.

For example, personality - being a vibrant and engaged and lovely person.

I also think people have different apporaches to dating, some are more superficial like speed dating. Which seems to be the norm nowdays, like picking a product from the store. While others want a relationship focused on relationship, a relationship based on friendship. What does it mean to be a friend? friends help one another. Being trusting, empathic, but also caring and romantic. Helpful but not the obsessed simp type _"I will help you even if I get to suffer from this"_. Be her friend and she will trust you. When she begins to trust you, she will open up.

It may be old fashoned, but it's good. It has more depth and feeling to it than the superficial standards of nowdays speed dating or playing games or having to be matcho man dominant alpha male dating. Start out as friends, laugh with each other, making jokes, and when the time is right ask her for a date. Friendship is care, which I think is more attractive than that macho-man alpha boy stuff. All you need is confidence to engnage and that empathy to want to know more about them, to be interested in them. It's not about dominating but about being there.

This may come across as simping to some, but just because you are caring it doesn't mean you have no opinions and can't agree or disagree depending on what you really think. Women won't dislike you for disagreeing. They will admire you more for speaking your mind freely and expression your opinion than for simply saying yes all the time. If a woman would have wanted a nodding monkey she would have gone to the zoo.

You can have someone who looks like a cake but inside be rotten, this won't work out in the long term, you need to be compatible, which brings me to another point - compatibility.

Probably the most important thing, two people need to be compatible to have a healthy relationship, compatibility.

Go for compatibility. But what is compatibility? 

To understand compatbility you have to understand incompatibility. What you couldn't live with no matter how desireable the person is? What are your top 5 compatibilities? people haven't thought that through.

Rampant infidelity is not a good thing to add to the list of your top 5 incompatibilities, because it's everyone's top 5 incompatibilities, nobody wants someone infidel, so it's not a useful one. What are your particular top 5 incompatibilities that are particular to you?

The incompatibilities that if you would list other people would say "no, that's not what are mine", that's the more important thing, because then it's about knowing yourself. Knowing yourself means knowing what your top 5 incompatibilities are. Think what applies to you and would't apply to most other people.

For example: if one of your top 5 values is efficiency, one of your top 5 incompatibilities may be inefficiency. Some incompatiblities could be: lack of curiosity, lack of enjoyment in physical activity, lack of playfulness. You could say someone who's negative, but nobody wants someone who's negative.

If you've meet someone and they don't have your top 5 incompatibilities, you don't know that you met the right person, but you do know that you haven't met the wrong person, and that is a useful starting point. A succesful marriage is a marriage of values. That's not to say that love can't be developed or grown, but if you have compatibility in areas that are really fundamental to you, whether there are 3 or 5 things, there is a really strong argument that those relationships are likely to last the test of time.

Most people don't like small talk, but 99% of the planet is doing small talk, small talk is something that's inneviable that has a transnistion into big talk. You have to start off with small talk, you can't just walk up to someone and go "what do you think the meaning of life is?". They would be like "get away from me", you got to be like "nice weather we're having recently", you got to build up a little bit, and then you can get into what do you think the purpose of life is.

But compatibility, although important, it's not enough to be attractive, you have to gain someone's attention by being different and then their interest by figuring out what is their unmet need, then fill the unmet need in an unexpected way.

In order to hold someone's interest, you have to find out what they need or what they want, you have to fill that gap. How do you do that? With small talk, you have to do that to figure out what that is.

One of the thing is conversation, because at the heart of life is conversational skills. All relationships are mediated through converastion and being skilled at converastion is incredibly important. You have to be skilled at getting people to do something they don't want to do. You just bought a product and want to return it, you're just going to have a conversation with someone who doesn't want the product back.

If you're a confident individual, it doesn't matter what you say as long as a conversation starts, it really doesn't matter how it begins. But it's useful to have a plan. And there's a famous technique called the compliment & question technique. It goes like this: that's a lovely pairs of headphones you're wearing, where did you get them from?

Fill the unmet need. First find the unmet need, then fill the unmet need. Seduction is when you meet someone, then you discover they are kind of indifferent to you or hate you, and then you gradually work away using charm that turns that around and gets them to desire you. When you go to a job interview, you are seducing the interviewer into wanting them to choose you over 500 other applicants. Stimulating the other person to desire to be with you.

It's got to be something very specific, very different and very particular to her, do the unexpected, it gets people's attention. Anything a bit unexpected it's always on the edge of weirdness, so you have to be on that edge but you have to do so in a playful understanding way. If it wasn't unexpected it would have been conventional, which is fine, but conventional won't get someone's attention.

You got to be different. At a job interview, the other 500 people answered the question "why do you want to work in this company", if you're the one saying "actually, I don't want to work on this company. but blah blah blah" you'll get their attention. You are gambling, because it's too weird, but on the other hand sometimes it's a gamble worth taking. It works because it's different, therefore will get her attention. It also works because it's terribly specific, she knows he has only got eyes for her, hence the specificity of the act, is very seductive. If you feel this guy could be saying the same line to other girls, it's not very seductive.

Some people pick the comfortable approach, if you put in an effort you've already lost, I think it's quite the opposite.

The playing hard to get is so popular these days, for girls and boys as well, all these rules about not calling after the first day, a lot of these rules come from nowhere and are based on very weird ideas, a lot of these rules are a bit cruel and a bit ungenerous "I'm not going to call him, because I want to make him feel like I'm ignoring him" or something, there's a slight cruelty to that, that's gameplaying taken to the extreme that I don't approve of. True relationship is when you give something to the person and then get something back, there is a deep reciprocity in it.

The people are losing that slightly deeper connection that would be more rewarding.

You got to be a fan, you got to be a fan of people in general. Battling on is the best look, be vulnerable but fight on.

Finding out someone's unmet need and then filling it in a very unexpected way makes people feel understood. It says: I've thought of you and I've thought of you in the way that you like see yourself. And that can make someone feel like they are seen by someone, and you really could make connections with people when you think they've seen you, not just your exterior. It's very important to be seen, to feel that we're actually being seen.

Exposure of vulnerable is okay, that's something about vulnerable that if you do it okay and are not on the edge of weirdness, that's actually very seductive, be open to being vulnerable.

We've all got unmet needs, going back about feeling that you are being seen, there as sense that we're really being seen properly when people see the unmet need, he can spot it, and then do something about it.

How do you figure out what people's unmet needs are? Have you never tried to talk to people in their lives? You know, what might make them unhappy?

Talk to people, ask them about themselves, and it will leak out sooner or later. It's very easy to find people's unmet need, you just have to be interested in people. That's the key, interested in people. Listening and really listening to people when they speak and being curious as to why they feel certain things and trying to understand the world from their perspective.

Conversation is incredibly important because it can take you deeply into someone's life. And this notion of being interested in people and creating an atmosphere in the conversation so people feel able to share with you, what's troubling them, what's going on in their lives, is the way you get people's unmet needs.

Everyone's got unmet needs, including very succesful people on television and supermodels. Everyone's got unmet needs, the issue is what is it? and how do I find out what it is? by engaging in a conversation.

Secondly, how do you fill the unmet need in a way that has never been done before? it takes a leap of immagination. There's no point filling it in a way it has been filled before, that's not seductive.

For example, let's say you want to date a psychiatrist. What kind of person becomes a psychiatrist? what's it like to be a psychiatrist? what is their day like? Or a doctor. What is the average day of a doctor? the average day of a doctor is very frustrating. Patients come in, you give them advice, and the advice gets ignored. Giving people feedback like "wow, that's really insightful" is filling an unmet need, because doctors have a need of being effective.

Try to think about what it's like to be the other person, that is the key point. And most people don't think about that. You can ask people "what is like actually doing what you do? I bet it must be frustrating". If they have a really great job, their unmet need would be somewhere else, it could be in their relationships, it could be in their family life. The whole of life is not just about being succesful, it's about having a plesant experience.

Empathy is actually understanding people, seeing them in the way they like to see themselves, there is something very powerful about feeling that you're seen properly, that they are understood.

Obviously, this doesn't have to be a fully deep discussion or connection, you can also have fun. In fact, I think it's imperative to have a good time with each other, usually with jokes like self-humor or sarcasm. To work both on the entertaining side and on the actually caring side.

There are some dating advice like _"To be succesful, you only have to appear to be confident. And the most important part of being confident, is appearing to be certain, even if on the inside you're scared out of your mind and have no idea what you're going to do"_. I can understand that on some level, but on another level, I have serious doubts about the actual value of confidence. I think it's okay not to be certain all the time, it's okay to have doubts, you can figure it out on the way. It's okay to be vulnerable, to not compromise yourself by trying to be an matcho-man alpha-male when you are actually not.

Women with sensitivity also like men with sensitivity, men who show that they have a heart and are more than just a brute. So sensitivity is attractive when done to the right kind of women. But women also like men with a friendly attitude who charge others with a positive energy. Someone who has a generally positive attitude, not being a complainer. Someone who is vibrant and engaged and lovely. Don't go for cringe superficial stuff, have a normal conversation, like you would talk to a friend, don't have a radically different attitude between a man and a woman.

Women are not a different animal or species from men. Women have feelings too, the same type of feelings that men do. Because I've seen people with completely different attitudes between men and women due to their preconceptions. Don't be fooled by that crap which will drag you down. Women are people, just like men, when it comes to long-term relationships, they have the same type of feelings and want a comfortable relationship. What you look for in a woman emotionally is probably what a woman looks in a man emotionally as well.

In fact, I think women look for in men emotionally more than men do in women. For men, on average, the most important thing is looks. For women, on average, the most important thing is the character, what is on the inside. This is why it's a bit tricky for women, they have to know the man a bit. Where as men on the other hand can judge looks almost instantly. This is why status is important for women, not because they all want money, but because status is a kind of proxy signal for character, what's on the inside. Women are looking for a kind of trip advisor dating, cause they need validation from some other source.

For all the _"women like bad boys with an attitude that treat people like crap but are dominant and strong"_ stereotype, I think what most women actually want is clear high IQ, signaling caring and high status. Based on the: women look for in men emotionally more than men do in women, for women, on average, the most important thing is the character, what is on the inside. Yes, status matters as well, but the same is true for men in a long-term relationship. The one with the alpha-male, women being attracted to the dominant type is a simple image, it's also wrong. There's no need to be a matcho-man or alpha-male, vulnerability is good. Women are people with feelings, not robots looking for the strongest object to attach to, see them for what they really are, not for the stereotypes attached to them.

Attract with emotions, not with strength, women have feelings too, just like men do, don't shy away from talking about feelings and have a normal conversation, have that confidence to engage, and that empathy to want to know more about them, to be interested in them. It's not about dominating but about being there. And vulnerable.

Being a controlled vulnerable is attractive. Someone that has fears and doubts, admits to his own fears and doubts, but won't back away or down from them. Showing you're not perfect and don't have everything figured out but are still keep going, showing you're a person.

In summary:

Physical attraction is mostly a cultural, it changes as the years go by.
Similar people attract each other, simiarities attract, but there is more to attraction.
Personality matters, being a vibrant and engaged and lovely person.
Start out as friends, be her friend and she will trust you, when she begins to trust you, she will open up.
You have to be compatible, think about what are your top 5 particular incompatibilities? Things that would be a complete turn-off for you no matter how desireable the other person is.
You have to start off with small talk, small talk is something that's inneviable that has a transistion into big talk.
How to make someone interested in you? First find the unmet need, then fill the unmet need in a way that has never been done before.
Anything a bit unexpected it's always on the edge of weirdness, so you have to be on that edge but you have to do so in a playful understanding way.
How do you figure out what people's unmet needs? Talk to people, ask them about themselves, and it will leak out sooner or later. It's very easy to find people's unmet need, you just have to be interested in people.
Listening and really listening to people when they speak and being curious as to why they feel certain things and trying to understand the world from their perspective.
Be interested in people and create an atmosphere in the conversation so people feel able to share with you, what's troubling them, what's going on in their lives, is the way you get people's unmet needs.
How do you fill the unmet need in a way that has never been done before? it takes a leap of immagination. There's no point filling it in a way it has been filled before, that's not seductive.
Finding out their need and filling it in a very specific way says I've thought of you in the way that you like see yourself. And that can make someone feel like they are seen by someone, and you really could make connections with people when you think they've seen you, not just your exterior.
Try to think about what it's like to be the other person, that is the key point. And most people don't think about that.
There as sense that we're really being seen properly when people see the unmet need, he can spot it, and then do something about it.
Filling their unmet need in a way that has never been done before is different, will get her attention. While being terribly specific lets her know you've got eyes only for her, you couldn't be doing/saying this to someone else.
Exposure of vulnerable is okay, that's something about vulnerable that if you do it okay and are not on the edge of weirdness, that's actually very seductive, be open to being vulnerable.
Women also like men with a friendly attitude who charge others with a positive energy.
Women are people, just like men, they have the same type of feelings and want a comfortable relationship.
What you look for in a woman emotionally is probably what a woman looks in a man emotionally as well.
For women, on average, the most important thing is the character, what is on the inside.
This is why status is important for women, status is a kind of proxy signal for character, what's on the inside.
Women are looking for a kind of trip advisor dating, cause they need validation from some other source.
Women are people with feelings, not robots looking for the strongest object to attach to, see them for what they really are, not for the stereotypes attached to them.
Have that confidence to engage, and that empathy to want to know more about them, to be interested in them. It's not about dominating but about being there. And vulnerable.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

Dezir said:


> It's also worth pointing out that what is considered physically attractive is mostly a cultural thing. The ideal woman was more chubby in the 20s and 30s, nowdays the ideal woman is skinny.
> 
> Beside that, there are always exceptions, people who don't like what is considered the ideal woman or man. The best thing to do in my opinion is become they way you like. You, as a man or woman, clearly have an idea what you think is best in a man or woman. Aspire to become your ideal image for your own gender. Why? Because similar people attract each other. If you like a certain type of man or woman and aspire to become that man/woman, you will attract people who also like that type of man/woman, in other words you will attract your type.
> 
> ...


I'm not entirely sure what prompted that, but it was very well written and extremely informative. Thank you.

I would like to add that your advice is not for everyone. It takes a lot of emotional energy to be that persistent. Consistency is important. It's better to make small consistent efforts than it is to make infrequent grandiose ones.

I particularly agree on the misconception about women liking assholes. For some weird reason, a lot of so called nice guys are extremely judgemental. They'll look at a descent man and label him an asshole because to them being assertive is incompatible with kindness. I don't know who convinced young men of this lie, but I believe this is the root cause of the problem.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

ENFPathetic said:


> I'm not entirely sure what prompted that, but it was very well written and extremely informative. Thank you.
> 
> I would like to add that your advice is not for everyone. It takes a lot of emotional energy to be that persistent. Consistency is important. It's better to make small consistent efforts than it is to make infrequent grandiose ones.
> 
> I particularly agree on the misconception about women liking assholes. For some weird reason, a lot of so called nice guys are extremely judgemental. They'll look at a descent man and label him an asshole because to them being assertive is incompatible with kindness. I don't know who convinced young men of this lie, but I believe this is the root cause of the problem.


Thank you, I'm glad my insight was helpful.

I just wanted to show that there is a lot more than looks when it comes to dating. If everyone was conventionally attractive people wouldn't instantly match. Because there are a lot more factors invovled.

I don't believe in destiny, I think that what you do is what you get. And yes, life should be fair, but life isn't fair, and we have to make the most of it.

One of the things that makes you attractive is clearly looks, the hotter you look the better, another is your social standing, your image and reputation matter, another one is how colorful is your personality, whether you are happy and energetic and silly, because we tend to radiate these qualities and influence the mood of other people.

Another one is how autonomous and independent, how willing you are to be honest about your interests and tastes, because there are people trying to assume they have the same tastes as their crush, I think this is counter-productive, on one hand, it's fake, it shows a lack of autonomy, independence, that you don't have your own choices, your own desires.

And I think you have to be interested but not out in the open, not sneaky but not everything on the face, dropping hints. Take it slowly, don't reveal your feelings early. Someone who pretends to be uninterested, someone who is rather cold and aloof and doesn't seem to hate us or be disrespectful but at the same time not longing to be with us every single time, not dedicated to us, like they like you but wouldn't go the extra mile to take a seat next to you, it can be attractive for this very reason.

That is one facet of it anyway, the hot, cool, colorful, happy, energetic, silly, autonomous, honest, not completely interested, say things indirectly way. But there is another facet of this, the opposite. The trusting, empathetic, caring, romantic way.

But these qualities are not exclusive, you can be polite and respectful yet with initiative and nerve at the same time, you can be like "can I come to your place?" or "I want to kiss you", and insist again, but if you see that no is a no then leave her alone. You ask for permission, so it's polite, but at the same time make a pushing move, so it counts as having nerve.

Trying to help the other person would make them trust you. Someone of good character, who treats people right, is considerate about the way others feel, is not pretentious or sophisticated, with you I can talk normally and have a casual conversation. Someone who has a generally positive attitude, not being a complainer. Someone with sensitivity, with value for love, for the feeling itself, for being there for one another. Love in the traditional sense, with romance and care, there are still people who value that.

There are also women who are interested in love in the traditional sense, with romance and care. People want to know you care about them, people want to be cared for, that's what love is and how they know you're a keeper. People looking for deep connections want someone to be in it for them, not their looks and cars.

Women being loved for their looks is the equivalent of men being loved for their money. Sure, they would appreciate being liked for their looks, but that's not enough. They want to be loved for the person they are, not for the body they have.

Probably the most romantic thing ever is intimacy. Not buying 1000 flowers, but being able to be yourself around the other person, being able to share your more secret thoughts and desires.

Humans are first and foremost not a rational creature. You'll find that often people who give compliments, reasonable not exaggerated compliments, tend to light the mood around them.

Being interested in personal development can also be attractive. It's that mindset of growth that makes a person attractive. Probably because their future seems certain, stable and bright, or maybe they are in inspiration.

You got to take care of yourself. It's your job to get good, to impress yourself. To aim to improve yourself, to become better. Even when you don't feel like it, knowing that, in the long-term it will worth it. You need determination and commitment. To win the game of life.

It's good to have guts, initiative, confidence and dignity in life. When someone challenges you, you need to learn to give good replies so that you win the talk fight, to have good comebacks. If you don't have initiative, you will lose a lot of opportunities in life. And if you always avoid conflict, you will end up being used.

When people are dating, they want to impress the other person, they put on their best behavior and try to be as charming as possible. This is also attractive, putting on your best behavior because you want to impress. The bad will be inevitably revealed later, on both sides. It can either help people grow a closer bonds or irritate them and find them annoying at the other.

We all have ideal images about someone we like but don't quite know well. We know them, but not their flaws. And we don't know how their flaws interact with our flaws. People are on their best behavior when they met for the first times. They are very polite, very careful with each other, very considerate, always or often do what the other person says, because they like that person. But eventually, that first times best behavior image won't last.

People will slowly but surely drift into their normal routine, with good and bad. It's there that a relationship is truly tested, not in the ideal image stage. But even the ideal image has some merit, because there are some qualities about that person that truly are real and make that ideal image possible.

I'm no fan of a girl just because she's hot. Instead, I would like to have a deep connection that is not about looks, someone who cares about me, someone who is interested in them and not their looks or my possessions.

There are also people who love a caring connection and you don't have to be a brute to get them: depth, sensitivty, care, expression of feelings, people who love the feeling itself of being there for one another. Shock them with your kindness, discression and desire to help them, and they will begin to trust you. When they will begin to trust you, they will open up.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

People have a natural tendency to organize and categorize each other into social hierarchies. If one variable (such as attractiveness) is removed, others will simply be emphasised in its stead. This is the primary reason I'm quite cynical about the concept of utopia. Envy is a part of life. Also, I think that it's important to maintain genetic diversity between different populations for aesthetic as well as biological reasons. A monocultural, monoracial world without sex and gender distinctions would be quite boring and artistically uninspiring to live in. It would also make it much easier for someone to successfully design a bioweapon that could wipe out billions of people.

Instead of trying to make everyone the same, I would rather that humanity learned how to appreciate inequalities and make the best of the cards we've been dealt.

As for the dating stuff...a basic level of physical attractiveness is required to turn someone else on sexually. However, the reason most people fail to connect and find a mate is not that they are physically unattractive, but because they don't communicate their intentions and feelings clearly and consistently. It is important to help that special someone feel excited, aroused and emotionally connected to you. Do not sit back, wait and expect them to do all of the work - because they won't. Be warm, encouraging, give them compliments, laugh, take a risk and don't get triggered/offended by every little thing under the sun.

Perhaps something positive that we could do is practice aspects of this stuff here on the forum - such as how to flirt and ask someone out, how to escalate, as well as nonverbal communication skills, and give each other some feedback about what we liked. I am hardly an expert so would benefit from this as much as any of you.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

"If everyone was conventionally attractive.... AND rich...." it would be like Hollywood...

Where relationships, marriages and families are stable and wonderful, and everyone's content and satisfied and live happy fulfilling lives. If only the whole world was mega rich and attractive, all our pain and misery would just disappear!


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Joe Black said:


> "If everyone was conventionally attractive.... AND rich...." it would be like Hollywood...
> 
> Where relationships, marriages and families are stable and wonderful, and everyone's content and satisfied and live happy fulfilling lives. If only the whole world was mega rich and attractive, all our pain and misery would just disappear!


I thought Hollywood relationships were so fucked up because they are in the public eye--so it's like all about image. Though I suppose that's probably insulting to Hollywood actresses and actors. 

It just seems so horrible--almost like they get into relationships for the benefit of their brand, and then fans seem to feel entitled to actors/actresses too--getting outraged if they have an opinion, having all types of opinions on who they should be with, constantly prying into their personal lives just because they are public figures. 

When you're beautiful and rich, you always know who your real friends are--right? Isn't that the old adage? 
"Beauty and money only draw people who love you for who you are...and create the most stable, fulfilling relationships."


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## mino (Jul 20, 2020)

I mean, in my opinion “conventional attractiveness” is moot. Each person is capable of having their own tastes, they just conform to the media-set ‘ideal’ because they have no idea what they want.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

WickerDeer said:


> When you're beautiful and rich, you always know who your real friends are--right? Isn't that the old adage?
> "Beauty and money only draw people who love you for who you are...and create the most stable, fulfilling relationships."


ABSOLUTELY! Friends treat you nice and beautiful rich people are treated the nicest. 
Who cares about annoying personality traits when you look that good!

What’a that other old adage? Came for the thumbnail/title/book-cover, stayed regardless of content.

😬


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Hexigoon said:


> ... then would physical attractiveness even matter much at all to us in regards to choosing mates? If everyone is "hot", then is anyone, really? (Or if you want to flip it, what if no one fell under the term "conventionally attractive" - celebrity or otherwise - and we were all just kinda okay-looking to eachother at best?)


I don't think much would change, people are still people and the main things that makes a relationship work or not work, or you attractive or not attractive, are not based on looks.

Yes, looks matter, but there are a lot more things next to looks.

As I said, I'm not denying the importance of looks, it's important to know how to present yourself, you need to be aware of how you're being perceived. There are plenty of things you can do to make yourself look more attractive: work out to be in good shape, have a good haircut, a good style, and having a look which indicates that you are somebody. Having a look that indicates who you are as a person. Making the most of your looks and having a look that conveys something about you. It's not about being born in a physically good-looking in a genetic way, it's about making the most of your appearance and having a look.

Beside the obvious good looking people = more physically attractive, there is also the halo effect. When we see someone with good qualities, we tend to assume the rest of them is also full of good qualities. Because they’re good looking, they’re also seen as being more trustworthy, kinder and smarter, all very attractive traits to have.

However, the halo effect, while great for a first impression, wears off over time and this is where personality comes in.

An attractive trait to have is assertiveness. While hesitant guys refuse to make an approach unless they are 110% sure that they’ll succeed. What is attractive about assertive guys on the other hand is that they don't hesitate.

It's about the courage to go for it, it's about the courage to go out there and do it, even if you feel insecure, and even if there's the risk of failure, because of course there's the risk of failure, that's the point with hesitant guys refuse to make an approach unless they are 110% sure that they’ll succeed. Sure, you can try to read minds and get a general idea, but that can only get you so far, you can never reach 100% let alone 110% certainity. Don't hesitate, go after what you want, human relationships are pretty on the face, he who hesitates, loses out.

And being a fun person is also important not only in dating but in life in general, maybe even more than looks. Have a fun personality, bring the fun. If you want people to get to know you, and thus see how awesome you are, then you have to be someone they want to spend time with. Which means you want to be someone who’s fun. After all, being fun is the most attractive trait someone can have, more than looks, more than money or status or popularity.

Being nice is important as well, but being fun beats it. Think about your co-workers, your classmates and people you know in general. Most of them are nice people, but they are kind of just there, they are pleasant, but no fun. They are not memorable people. But we all have those few friends who stand out. They’re the ones who make us laugh or who always have the best stories.

Which people would you want to be spending more time with? The pleasant but kind of dull ones? Or the fun ones who liven up a room and make you feel good? Attraction is after all, a feeling. It’s about how someone makes you feel. The more somebody’s presence makes us feel good, the more we prioritize that relationship.

Now don’t get me wrong. This doesn’t mean that in order to win people over you have to constantly be playing the dancing monkey and always putting on a performance. Nobody can be _"on"_ 24/7, and being around the ones who try gets exhausting. You just want to be someone who creates good vibes and who’s fun to be around in general. You’re a cool person, not the entertainment director.

Optimism and confidence are important, because optimism and confidence can reach the other person. We speak beyond words with non-verbal messages. A smile is very important. And not only in dating, but for example, when a man meets with a another man, when we shake hands, we should neither break their hand nor be soft, giving the feeling that we are a person he cannot rely on.

Greet them warmly, like you're seeing an old friend, with a smile, have a fun conversation, joke around, tease her a little bit, have some good conversations and good vibe. Do something fun, propose to do something fun.

You also don't want to take the fun personality too far, think about the _"class clown"_ is that a positive or negative label? not really entierly positive. Yes, it does have some positives to it, but it's not on the whole what you want. But think about this: you're at a party, and some people want to jump in the pool while other people are afraid to take their shirt off. They are afraid of getting in trouble with the police and stuff like that. Which guys are more likely to be found attractive because they are more fun to be around? the ones that have no troubles jumping into the pool are the ones found more attractive.

Smile and laugh because your attitude can infect the other person. Bring the fun, and make them feel the same way as well. When someone has a good vibe, it makes you want to have a good vibe as well. Of course, you cannot love someone with force, if you see that you are trying to be high and smile and laugh and create good vices around you but the other person is resistant, drop it, and adjust it to a more moderate one.

So smile and laugh and be optimistic, that's what people like. Of course, as said previously, you can't have a high, uplifted, good vibe attitude except with people who also have an high, uplifted, good vibe attitude. And it's about social context, you cannot have that attitude everywhere, have a suitable attitude for the current situation.

What if you don't believe you can be that way? what if you have doubts? that's why it's important to be assured. Which is another trait that bad boys have that is found attractive, assuredness. The belief that you are right and what you're doing is good. And assuredness is influenced by attitude, you got to believe that about yourself, even if it may not work at first, you will eventually maybe slowly but surely come to believe that about yourself.

Assuredness is your belief that you are worth it, that you are worthwhile, that you are right, that you are of value, that you are right when you make decisions, your belief that she is going to like you. When you go and start talking to someone, you have a frame, an idea of what is true about the world and you're trying to put that frame across to the other person and get them to buy into it.

If your frame about the world itself is not helping you, if your frame about yourself is not something that if true then would get the girl to like you, if your frame is not making you an attractive person, you're just setting yourself up to fail. If you don't believe your frame, how is anybody else going to?

It's much better in general to take the assumption that you are right and are attractive and people like you and the other side of the conversation can try and disprove if they like, but you may as well at least be on your own team in this case. Imagine going in and taking the opposite approach, it's just self-sabotage, it's just not going to work.

And if someone still doesn't buy your frame? Just let them go, but it's better to have a frame like that than having no frame at all. In life, you got to be willing to be bold towards calculated risks but still accept defeat if things don't happen the way you wanted to. This is not a magic wand that will work 100% of times, but will improve your chances.

These things from above, with physical attractiveness, assertiveness, not being hesitant and going for it, being aware how you present yourself and how you're being perceived, having a fun personality, bringing in the fun, greeting them warmly, with a smile, having a fun conversation, joking around, teasing her a little bit, having some good conversations and good vibe, doing something fun, proposing to do something fun, being assured, the belief that you are right and what you're doing is good, a frame that if true then would get the girl to like you, that you are attractive, having an attitude that makes you feel assured, are sort of hard-skills if you could call them that. This is sort of what makes people at attractive.

But, that's not the whole story, you can also attract with the softness of your heart, being attentive, treating them with care and consideration, showing you're a good person, with decency, etc. Someone who does things for others and shows appreciation when things are done for him. If you did something wrong, apologize, not on the too humble side as in desperation but on the genuine side, and say that you will make up for it. Character is not as important as fun, but people look at the character as well, as said above, if you can be fun but also have a good character it will put you on a whole new level in terms of the girls getting attracted to you and falling in love with you. 

On the other hand, I don't subscribe to the "bad boys" or "alpha males" idea of an ideal man. Yes, being nice is not enough because everyone can be just nice. But being a jerk or an asshole is worse than being nice. First of all, it's immoral in principle, so even if it would work I don't like it, because you fundamentally have to change the way you are in order to be an "bad boy" or "alpha male" which I find repulsive, and it's not like a positive improvement, being a "bad boy" or "alpha male" is negative in so many ways.

Second, I don't think that's how it works. Not all women are attracted to bad boys or alpha males, women have different standards just like men have different standards, and the women who are attracted to bad boys or alpha males, are not attracted to their jerkish and inconsiderate behavior itself, but other qualities that they happen to have: confidence, leadership, guts. They have something else to offer in spite of their inconsiderate behavior. The being a jerk part is a tolerated not the main attribute. Also, most but not all bad boys, are not bad with the woman they want to hook up with, they are bad with other people around them.

Often times, bad boys start out as being very sweet and delicate with women around them, it's not like a girl is going to be attracted by a man essentially being like "hey you dumb face, go on a date with me", no, they are usually very tender and delicate with them, even saying "hey babe", "hey love", while talking about how they so don't care about this chick with the boys. Why is that? which to be noted, is completely contradictory to the average "bad boy" or "alpha male" lessons. Which usually tell you to be a bit of a jerk, a bit cruel or aggressive to make the girl like you. Yet here we have a bad boy doing the complete opposite, here we have a bad boy that is treating the girl very well. It's like this guy took lessons from the nice guys.

Well, there was a study which has shown that men are more likely than women to like about the depths of their feelings for them, the depths of their emotions for them, the depths of their care, in order to be with a woman. Isn't this great show of depths of their feelings for them exactly what is traditionally considered a wussy or needy behavior exactly by the people teaching "macho man", "bad boy" or "alpha male" stuff? If you escalate from "0, I don't know you" to "I love you to the sun" that's probably going to come across as needy, but it's the escalation itself that feels weird as it comes out of nowhere, not the depths of their feelings themselves. If you would have taken time to build with a girl a relationship, talk to her a few times, then ask her for a date, then go on a few more dates, then ask her to be your girlfriend, that "I love you to the sun" wouldn't be needy anymore and actually apreciated. So women actually like a man who shows depths of their feelings for them, shocking, I know. Actually, it is shocking because of all this bad advice that doing so would be simping or needy or whatever.

Anyway, that wasn't completely the case with this guy, he wasn't even on a date with her, he didn't say "I love you to the sun" but he said "hey babe", "hey love", "yes my love" which doesn't seem or doesn't look as exaggerated/scaled as "I love you to the sun" but given their interactions, if he would have said that, I don't think she would have objected. So this guy was very tender and delicate with her despite deep down not caring about her, treating her well, not playing "hard to get" or pretending to be indifferent, if anything he exaggerated his love, so why would it work for this guy but for others lead to the friendzone? In my opinion, first of all, despite actually not caring about her deep down, this guy was very real with her, he didn't go for pick-up lines or other superficial stuff that seem cringe, he had a decent approach, he approached her as an individual, as a separate person he needs to interact with while showing care and interest, rather than an ATM or Soda Machine where you insert the pick-up line and the ressult is the girl. In spite of his bad boy, he didn't objectify women emotionally, only physically, which I could say it's a plus.

But second, he had other qualities, looks, humor, etc. Maybe things in common too but I didn't notice. And his humor was often made by exaggerating things about a person or situation not related to either of them, so it couldn't have been offensive, and when it was about her it was about something that she doesn't care about or it's momentarily, like it wasn't something offensive. He wasn't this platonic guy whose only quality was being nice. Even he way he talked to her and treated her, with care, is attractive, because he didn't objectify her emotionally and treated her like a separate person he needs to interact with while showing care and interest. When you say nice, it just means not mean, so saying "I'm a nice guy" is really not saying much, it's like saying "I'm an average guy", sure that's cool but it's like not great not terrible, it's great that you're not mean but it's like saying your quality that makes you a good runner is that you have legs. You need to have something to make you stand out, and the thing that made this guy stand out, was shockingly, his level of care, which almost universally every "bad boy" or "alpha male" coach tells you it's bad, and then we have this bad boy doing the exact opposite.

Third, on the original list, stress. If you aren't naturally a "bad boy" or "alpha male" you're going to have a hard time being comfortable being or pretending to be a "bad boy" or "alpha male" to get the girls. You will have all these expectations of what are you supposed to be and how are you supposed to behave that you just can't live up to, making you more stressed and insecure and miserable in return. And perhaps, isn't it a bit shallow to think that women only want one type of man? I mean men have different standards, men know that about men, why can't women have different standards as well? attract with who you are rather than trying to be an "alpha male" or "bad boy". If you are fundamentally a good natured person, be a good natured person. Just be natural, let it flow.

Foruth, curel and aggressive = repulsive. Do people in general like cruel and aggressive individals? It depends on the context, in a crimial syndicate yes they would, they are very necessary for everyday business, in normal real life? no, they wouldn't. People don't like aggressive or cruel individuals in general. People like people who are decent and know how to behave with others. People like people that are fundamentally good people. People like people that talk nicely to others and approach people nicely and would rather settle a dispute through words than fights. People like people that are good members of society, men and women included.

The alpha male literature at the moment in the business world is all about bullying. It's like "I'm the biggest and meanest and strongest and I'll beat you all over the place". And I think that's a rather primitive way to think of what a woman would be attracted to in a man, sure, it happens, but probably when the woman is just as primitive as the man in question. A more sophisticated woman with her values set and well defined would see the danger in being with this kind of man and be rather repulsed by it, and instead would be attracted by men who are essentially caring of them but also fun to be around. And who are good or at least decent memebers of society, from the context of not getting to fights like a brute and having a decent career. The ability to stand up for yourself is a plus but not the main factor, you don't need a man to stand up for you when you have the police, because we live in a modern society, it's nice to have someone who can stand up for himself or you, but there are things more important in a partner, such as the experience you are having with them, you might as well do very well without the ability to stand up for yourself. And when you have it, it should be there but not put to use that often, and when put to use is verbally, followed by "I'll talk to someone", followed by "I'll call the police" and when there really really no other choice and you aren't the one who stared it, actually standing up for yourself physically.

All this "alpha male" and "bad boy" advice has some minor good things, like have an attitude "I want to have a great time with this person" rather than "I hope I won't mess it up", but essentially it's 90% bad and 10% good so you might as well avoid it all together. If the "alpha male" and "bad boy" are bad, what to do then? be aperson with an okay character and try to make yourself look good. I think the recipe of success in life is: looking good. It makes you feel better, it makes you be more confident, equipped with an okay character, not bragger, not jerk, not with guts. Regardless of how you are born, you can always work on your looks by working out and trying to maintain yourself healthy, live a healthy life.

You don't need to be a fighter, you don't need to be a warrior, you can be fundamentally a kind person. Not all women want an alpha male, women don't only go for bad boys. And the women who go for these people, I'm sorry for them, they are essentially no better than the guys who think that they can't get girls because they are just so nice but really are just kind of platonic rather than the caring treat you like a human being, an individual person with thoughts and desires, a separate person you need to interact with while showing care and interest, type of nice, they are just not mean, which is not much to go on, they don't have any other qualities to back themselves up with. As for the women who go for bad boys, isn't it obvious that if someone is bad with people around you, eventually he will be bad with you? Yes, it kind of is.

You don't need to be an alpha or a matcho man, women just want a caring and comfortable relationship, just like men do. They are humans, treat them like humans, the other gender isn't a whole new country. What do I mean with treat them like humans? treat them with care and assume they are good natured. But also, just like humans, assume they will act in their best interest and you need to offer something of value for them to want to be in a relationship with you, you don't need to be an asshole, you just need to a good guy who treats them with care and has something to offer in terms of having fun, having a chill time together. You can be caring and fun.

I'm not saying looks are overrated, because they aren't, I'm saying looks are not the whole story. So, if everyone was conventionally attractive, I don't think much would change.

Think of people living in Hollywood, there, I think everyone is at least conventionally attractive, but given the news it doesn't look like the dating scene changes so much there. If anything, it's even more chaotic than it is for an average person, but there you also have to take the money and fame that each person has into account.


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