# Nice guy syndrome



## .17485 (Jan 12, 2011)

What is nice guy syndrome? What causes it?


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

It happens when you are really desperate for a certain outcome so you decide the best way to get it is never to do things people don't like and also to try to kiss their ass so they will owe you something.

Eg., a guy really wants some vagoo, so he takes a girl out to the nicest restaurant in town and buys her flowers on the first date to try to impress her. This is the kind of guy who will be forever pussy whipped; he will find some wife eventually who he will let treat him like shit and nag him until his balls shrivel up and retreat back into his abdomen.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

EDIT: Actually that whole statement contradicted itself, this happens when I go to a different page to look at something else and come back.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

-googles-
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/nice-guys

OOOH white knight syndrome, met these people before.
They were protecting this one annoying bitch who kept fishing for attention and acting all nice in a forum and then sending death threats via email like it was scary.


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## Derse Dreamer (Jun 29, 2014)

Nice Guy Syndrome= The dudes who think they're entitled to a girl because they "think" that they have done something that they believe is enough for them to be considered a datable person, in the girl's eyes. (When they're probably just being a tad creepy ;p )


(psssst, its the same with girls. no exceptions with ze gender u_u)


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

Putting the big P (Pussy) on a pedestal.


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## hazell (Apr 24, 2014)

Would I count as a "nice guy" if I am basically unassertive and bitter about women ? 

But then again, I'm mostly cripplingly shy and barley said a word to anyone in high school, and sort of rejected a woman cause the situation freaked me out. So maybe I'm something different completely.


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## Lucky Luciano (Nov 28, 2013)

"nice guy" is an excuse for being inefficient wanker


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

You know that hot but incredibly dumb girl you know, who constantly posts mind numbingly dumb comments on facebook? The dudes who like every single one of her posts, especially any of her posts that are like 'WHY ARE ALL GUYS JERKS', they are suffering from nice guy syndrome. :/


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

Amine said:


> It happens when you are really desperate for a certain outcome so you decide the best way to get it is never to do things people don't like and also to try to kiss their ass so they will owe you something.
> 
> Eg., a guy really wants some vagoo, so he takes a girl out to the nicest restaurant in town and buys her flowers on the first date to try to impress her. This is the kind of guy who will be forever pussy whipped; he will find some wife eventually who he will let treat him like shit and nag him until his balls shrivel up and retreat back into his abdomen.


Damn.

[EDIT] Also, just want to say that I like nice guys. Not all guys intentions are what Amine described - and its unfortunate that some people lead to think this way. Some people are geniunley nice; you don't have to treat girls (or anyone for that matter) like crap just because you think nice guys finish last or whatever. Its a load of crap. 

  XD


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

People who think that being "nice" makes them entitled to another person's body or love. 
Not to be confused with actual nice guys, you know people who are naturally nice and friendly without realizing it because it comes across as natural to them, "nice" guys are the kind of men who pretend to be nice to a girl and to be interested in what she says and does when in reality all they want is to get laid. They call other men "jerks" since they're dating the girl they want (or they're too different from them) and if said girl turns them down, they'll start calling her all kinds of disrespectful things or even blackmailing her. They don't get where they go wrong because come on, everyone is an asshole or a whore while they're sooo _nice_.

I call the female version the "Taylor Swift"! To those women all men are jerks, breakups are always someone else's fault, other women are either shallow and superficial or sluts and they love to play the victim while acting judgmental and holier than thou.


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

@Hotaru

^ Do you think all guys do it? Sometimes I've seen genuinely nice guys get walked over on, and/or overlooked sometimes. But I know what you and others mean by it. Some guys actually want to be nice though.  And stating this gives some of the genuinely nicer guys an impression of that you should be an a-hole. Do you agree?


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Personally I'm getting tired of hearing that everything a male does is because of his dick. Some of us like to have friendships with women without thinking of how to get in their pants. Nice guy syndrome? Maybe its just a "nice guy" who blames his "niceness" on not getting any poontang. If this is the case, you're just an asshole with a sense of entitlement.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@donkeybals

Oh no, I don't think all guys do it and I prefer to look at individuals rather than groups because we're all our own person and this kind of generalization often harms people. Real nice guys often get overlooked because they're shy or too 'vanilla' but that doesn't mean you have to change yourselves for other people! Sometimes it takes just letting things happen naturally, the more you want something, the more it'll end up eating you alive. >.< Oh and some shy, introverted people often pass for a-holes because people are shallow like that (or uninterested in digging deeper).

There's also the misconception that "nice" guys are your typical nerd stereotypes while I can tell you firsthand that this happens all of the time and in different circles too! Some people are so charming and smooth yet they have that kind of ill intentions and once the girl snaps out of the manipulation, they'll show their ugly side. Basically... I feel like everyone should just be themselves! You're not a nice person and just want to fool around? Own it! There are women interested in something similar. You're nice and shy and insecure? Work on the things you dislike about yourself but keep true ^^ fake confidence is never a good look and if you manage to choose what feels right, to detect someone who might be on your same wavelength, they'll just like you for who you are. Maybe you can try to improve yourself but you have to do it because you want to, not to impress other people!


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

There are two threads with same title here.


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## .17485 (Jan 12, 2011)

Surreal Snake said:


> There are two threads with same title here.


I felt it was part of the psychology section and sex and relationships


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

donkeybals said:


> Damn.
> 
> [EDIT] Also, just want to say that I like nice guys. Not all guys intentions are what Amine described - and its unfortunate that some people lead to think this way. Some people are geniunley nice; you don't have to treat girls (or anyone for that matter) like crap just because you think nice guys finish last or whatever. Its a load of crap.
> 
> XD


Guys who treat women like crap are actually the same kind of thing as nice guys. They are using an affectation to try to get a response out of girls. The same nice guy who tried the nice restaurant and flowers strategy might read that it is more effective to get girls by being a dick to them, and try that strategy later on.

I simply believe there is a middle ground where you aren't trying to manipulate, you are just being yourself and giving a girl exactly how much attention she seems to warrant. Like, why all the fanfare over a first date? Why not just meet up at some normal place and not try to impress each other? Go dutch, even. Why should the guy pay? The two are equal aren't they?

I'm not saying a guy can't be nice. Sure he can, he can be as nice to any girl as he would be to his guy friends. We all have a sort of resting level of niceness that we use when we aren't trying to manipulate someone to get something. At the same time, he should have a spine and be able to say no, even if that means seeming like an asshole. This happens to me all the time. People call me an asshole, but I'm not trying to be. I'm just not trying to win their favor so I stick to my guns.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Tega1 said:


> I felt it was part of the psychology section and sex and relationships


Cool


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## 539885 (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with @Hotaru about generalizations, but for the sake of concise discussion sometimes people need to be discussed in general groups. Here's the spectrum I see:

Genuinely nice person *<--------* "I did X, so Y should happen." [Benign, lacks people skills] *-------->* "I did X, Y should happen OR ELSE." [Entitled asshole]

Here's where I have my gap: relationships. 
* *




I have seen the "nice guy finishes last" cliché play out and, frankly? I tend to see nice women settle, so they both have something going wrong there. The reason why I say gap is that I have a theory from what I've seen as well as personal experience, but lack enough observational data to feel certain. So if anyone else has thoughts, I would appreciate the feedback. 

The theory is this:

[Nice person gets in relationship] "I love you so much, I'm going to shower you with love everyday! I know you've had it rough before, but it won't be that way with me now! Did I mention how much I love you?"

[The unintended message] "Even though you've survived this long without me, I'm going to cushion you from the world now with my love and treat you like glass." <---- lacks respect and trust
|
|
[Nice person after some time in the relationship] "Isn't this so amazing? I could talk with you everyday. I love you. Oh, what? Decisions to be made? Oh, whatever you want beloved, I'm happy either way."

[The unintended message] "I have made you the primary decision-maker and I have ceased thinking about things, even though our lives are tied together." <---- direct contradiction to cushioning effect

The other gap is that, if people supposedly liked such well-defined roles, why doesn't this work in more relationships?


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

Being nice is not to draw attention to self. It's a way to generate positive vibe in a group situation. It's being personable, affable, well mannered, and decent.

This is a picture of a genuine nice guy. 

Nice guy syndrome, on the other hand, seems to imply a negative image. I fear that genuine nice guys would shy away from being nice so not to be called "nice guy". Just like genuine nice gals cringe at being called nice.

A shame really. Bring a jerk or a bitch may draw attention but in the end it's still a negative attention. Do any of you want to be in a relationship with a jerk or a bitch? Yeah, don't think so.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

donkeybals said:


> Damn.
> 
> [EDIT] Also, just want to say that I like nice guys. Not all guys intentions are what Amine described - and its unfortunate that some people lead to think this way. Some people are geniunley nice; you don't have to treat girls (or anyone for that matter) like crap just because you think nice guys finish last or whatever. Its a load of crap.
> 
> XD


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

If anyone thinks they are entitled to another person or another person's body, then they are not "nice". 

What the hell is 'nice guy syndrome'? What happened to respecting the autonomy of the person you're interested in and acknowledging that rejection is a part of life?

Reminds me of people who complain about being 'friend-zoned', using gender slurs to demonize the women who don't want to sleep with them (and for good reason). Ugh.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Men logic: Women are like vending machines. You put enough niceness coins and you get sex and relationships from them. Those that refuse have friendzoned the "nice guy" you are.

Stray logic: feed people chocolate; when they like you, hug them >


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## ShatteredHeart (Jul 11, 2014)

donkeybals said:


> Damn.
> 
> [EDIT] Also, just want to say that I like nice guys. Not all guys intentions are what Amine described - and its unfortunate that some people lead to think this way. Some people are geniunley nice; you don't have to treat girls (or anyone for that matter) like crap just because you think nice guys finish last or whatever. Its a load of crap.
> 
> XD


Well Said, I'm Sick and Tired of the owed sex argument. I've been labeled as the nice guy and brushed to the friend zone on more than one occasion. For me sex does not matter, when I fantasize about a girl that I have a dead interest in, Its about holding hands, a romantic kiss, or just staring into her eyes. Real nice guys are not trying to get in your pants, they just want to spend eternity with you.
@Hotaru 100% agree, Why can't I find a girl like you?

@Grandmaster Yoda love your sig


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

male feminists


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

nice guys finish last... GOOD - YouTube


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

MightyLizardKing said:


> male feminists


Male feminists are a good thing by definition. 

What you want is to avoid "Men's Rights" campaigners.

Or the "I don't need feminism" hashtag. Because we all need feminism, me in particular :3.


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## GurrenZero (Aug 6, 2011)

I was taught that "being nice" was simply the decent way to treat a lady and the best way to win over a girl you're interested in was to show her that you can treat her well. Little did I know how wrong this advice was. I think this is true of most "nice guys". 

The problems arise when nice guys fail to adapt to reality and adopt new strategies and instead grow bitter and resentful. These guys deserve our pity and understanding not hate and riddicule.


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

strayfire said:


> Male feminists are a good thing by definition.
> 
> What you want is to avoid "Men's Rights" campaigners.
> 
> Or the "I don't need feminism" hashtag. Because we all need feminism, me in particular :3.


And voila! my point


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

GurrenZero said:


> I was taught that "being nice" was simply the decent way to treat a lady and the best way to win over a girl you're interested in was to show her that you can treat her well. Little did I know how wrong this advice was. I think this is true of most "nice guys".
> 
> The problems arise when nice guys fail to adapt to reality and adopt new strategies and instead grow bitter and resentful. These guys deserve our pity and understanding not hate and riddicule.


That's what a lot of guys were taught. There are certainly worse things you can be taught and on the surface it sounds almost completely innocuous, but on closer inspection I stumble at the phrase "win over a girl".

Those 4 words betray the whole mindset behind it all, that the girl is an object to be won or achieved or whatever. The truth is, you don't need to "win over a girl", anymore than you need to "win over a friend." People just become friends, things happen.

I know, I know, people will say "but it's just being nice, is that really so bad?" And I agree with you, it's not. But it isn't necessary. Girls, guys, whoever you want to be with, they just want you to be real. They don't need you to try to win them over.


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

^ I agree that that saying is annoying, along with "scoring points" with girls, or "brownie points" with anyone in general. Also this "nice guy syndrome" thing should be called sucking up to women and kissing their behind.  Just the catch phrase/name, is really bad, because it implies you should be mean, or something other than nice. "Kissing a**" syndrome" sounds like a more accurate name to me. Or "sucking up syndrome" because this has nothing to do with niceness at all I think***.

I think I already said something like this in my last post, but am restating because this thread is.... :blushed: pissing me off, there's nothing wrong with being nice! If a girl showers me with niceness I don't care that much.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

@Amine I'm getting kind of cynical of this viewpoint. Relationships are something that people try to 'achieve' because they're meaningful parts of our lives. A lot of guys want to win a girl's affection (so to speak) and are understandably upset when they're not able to enter a romantic relationship with someone who they wanted to be more than friends with. I don't think it's fair to vilify them for trying to enter a relationship with someone they liked and failing nor do I think it's fair to assume that they feel 'entitled' to a woman's body because they wanted more than friendship. Some of them may be superficial dicks just trying to get sex, but not all of them. And to be totally clear here, I'm not saying I like the idea of being a suck up or superficial. I just think it's not fair to act like all of these people are evil misogynists because they might be misinformed on how to enter relationships.

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of people's frustration with being 'friend-zoned' is that they felt like they were purposefully duped and used.


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> @Amine I'm getting kind of cynical of this viewpoint. Relationships are something that people try to 'achieve' because they're meaningful parts of our lives. A lot of guys want to win a girl's affection (so to speak) and are understandably upset when they're not able to enter a romantic relationship with someone who they wanted to be more than friends with. I don't think it's fair to vilify them for trying to enter a relationship with someone they liked and failing nor do I think it's fair to assume that they feel 'entitled' to a woman's body because they wanted more than friendship. Some of them may be superficial dicks just trying to get sex, but not all of them. And to be totally clear here, I'm not saying I like the idea of being a suck up or superficial. I just think it's not fair to act like all of these people are evil misogynists because they might be misinformed on how to enter relationships.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that a lot of people's frustration with being 'friend-zoned' is that they felt like they were purposefully duped and used.


But I'm not calling anyone an evil misogynist. I understand the confusion, I think society warps our expectations and gives a lot of guys (and girls) false impressions about the meaning and properties of such things as relationships. I've been through the same thing, really, where I thought that being a "nice girl" would "win the guy over". So it's not that I blame myself or anyone. I just didn't know how things worked. I had every reason to believe what I had been brought up to believe.

I also totally agree that it is obnoxious when girls say they want what they don't really want, namely a nice guy or one that will treat them like a princess. It's obnoxious when they whine about the guys they like turning out to be assholes and then they keep getting with the same sort of guy. That is very misleading, so again, it is understandable why "nice guys" think like they do sometimes.

Nonetheless, I still don't think a girl (or guy) is something to be achieved or whatever. And I'm living proof of that. I don't have a relationship, and I have been through times in life where I tried to "achieve" one but it fundamentally just doesn't work, because meaningful relationships are based on who people really are, not trying to win someone. Would I like a relationship? Yes! It would be very nice, but not _that_ nice. I'm actually pretty alright just being single. It's like vanilla ice cream. A relationship would be chocolate sauce. The first is good, the second merely makes it even better. That's my take.


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

@Yomiel

I don't think anyone is trying to imply that all males who complain about being friend-zoned are 'evil misogynists', it's just that the number of them that have the attitude "I can't believe she won't let me put my dick in her even though I _treated her like a human being!_" is too gosh darn high. 

"What about that time when you were wasted?! Any other guy would have taken advantage of you, but I drove you home safely!"
Oh, please. No one gets brownie points for not raping someone! This is what is meant by entitlement. Hardly does entitlement show explicitly in the form of "I deserve that body". It comes out in subtler ways, like this.

And from the female perspective, it's hurtful to think that our friendship is considered a 'just' crappy consolation prize (especially when you don't have many friends in the first place). If people consider friendships to be some kind of punishment, then that's incredibly selfish.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

@Laura L I think if you were trying to pursue a romantic relationship with someone, then yes, friendship is kind of a crummy consolation prize. If you were really into some guy and wanted to date him and he ended up just wanted to be friends, you'd probably be somewhat upset too. Is it that the guy's fault/problem? No, but I also don't think it's 'selfish' for you or anyone else to be disappointed by it. After all, it's rejection of a sort. I guess my ultimate point here is just that the whole attitude that the guy is automatically some shallow dick (eg "I can't believe she won't let me put my dick in her...") or worse isn't really warranted. It might be true in some cases, but it's entirely possible (and reasonable) for the guy to simply be upset because he liked someone and she didn't have the same feelings back.


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> nice guys finish last... GOOD - YouTube


what a ride!


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)




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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> @Laura L I think if you were trying to pursue a romantic relationship with someone, then yes, friendship is kind of a crummy consolation prize. If you were really into some guy and wanted to date him and he ended up just wanted to be friends, you'd probably be somewhat upset too. Is it that the guy's fault/problem? No, but I also don't think it's 'selfish' for you or anyone else to be disappointed by it. After all, it's rejection of a sort. I guess my ultimate point here is just that the whole attitude that the guy is automatically some shallow dick (eg "I can't believe she won't let me put my dick in her...") or worse isn't really warranted. It might be true in some cases, but it's entirely possible (and reasonable) for the guy to simply be upset because he liked someone and she didn't have the same feelings back.


Yeah, this is why I find this "nice guys don't respect women and think they can be won and they think they deserve their love1!!" thing makes no sense to me. I mean, if you put in effort hoping that it would get someone to return your romantic feelings but they ended up not returning your feelings I think it's fair to be disappointed. I really don't know when that became sexist 

I can see it being especially annoying when a girl says "I want a nice guy who is a true romantic and modest" and then you do all the things you thought she wanted and she ends up falling for the exact opposite. I mean, I could see that being really annoying, and I don't think being annoyed by that makes you a misogynist. 

I mean, if a girl is leading a guy on just for shits (which I've seen happen a few times) then, yeah, I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to be upset, and I see that as the women objectifying the man more than the man objectifying the woman.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

MightyLizardKing said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



* *





* *





Think there is some diversity which doesn't bode well for people from opposing views.
I think most reasonable people can sympathize with someone trying to seduce someone, it not working out and being disappointed but I think what warrants such a negative reaction is when that pain turns into bitterness.
Be it man or woman, one's lack of fulfillment in reality doesn't justify bad mouthing an entire sex because of an individual which is what happens with both sexes and such people are a disappointment and evidently lack maturely to deal with unrequited love with integrity. 

When a woman says all men are assholes/bastards/dicks who only want sex or men describe all women are bitches/sluts/cunts who just use men, both are being pricks.
For what ever reason though, boys/men complaining seems to have received more attention. I think in part because for many, they aren't raised with the view point that being friends with a woman is fine, that if you interact with a woman and treat her kindly it's only for sex and this of course makes of messy behaviour between the sexes when people don't communicate their wants directly and assume they'll end up fulfilled through an indirect means. 

So just to close with a summary, being hurt from not getting the partner or sex you wanted is understandable, but being bitter about it and then developing sweeping and cruel generalizations of an entire sex is infantile.


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

Wellsy said:


> Think there is some diversity which doesn't bode well for people from opposing views.
> I think most reasonable people can sympathize with someone trying to seduce someone, it not working out and being disappointed but I think what warrants such a negative reaction is when that pain turns into bitterness.
> Be it man or woman, one's lack of fulfillment in reality doesn't justify bad mouthing an entire sex because of an individual which is what happens with both sexes and such people are a disappointment and evidently lack maturely to deal with unrequited love with integrity.
> 
> ...


True I agree. Though I also don't think one sex is inherently worse than the other as far as this goes.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

PaintedVixen said:


> Nice Guy Syndrome= The dudes who think they're entitled to a girl because they "think" that they have done something that they believe is enough for them to be considered a datable person, in the girl's eyes. (When they're probably just being a tad creepy ;p )
> 
> 
> (psssst, its the same with girls. no exceptions with ze gender u_u)



Here's an alternate interpretation: people who need love and validation and feel that the best way to obtain it is to be compassionate and caring.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

I think I get it. 


* *




(11:27:01 AM) i: But ability to have a relationship....
(11:27:57 AM) p: generally these guys are completely socially isolated, and insulated from reality - they only know internet reality where "nice guys" never "get" "a chick" and they think they need to learn pua in order to "get" "a chick" 
(11:28:09 AM) p: in the meantime they think they deserve porn because theyre alone. it then warps them even further, giving them a taste for something they could never have irl -- women who look like models, and a different one every night, so once they finally find a girl - theyre not going to fully appreciate her, they will feel like theyre "settling" because when youre a 3/10 like they are, you're not going to find a 11/10 "maxim hottie", so even a girl who is "better" than them (by the same current societal values), is going to be made to feel like shes the one being settled for by these entitled little mouthbreathers. if they let this sink in, they could salvage -something- but they try to fight me on it at every turn.
(11:30:18 AM) i: Yeah it doesn't WORK like that... not everyone looks like the airbrushed super models. They don't understand normal anymore
(11:30:56 AM) p: yeah exactly and the women out there who come close to attaining physical "perfection" are going to date other dudes who are just as obsessed with looking that way, not *these guys*. lol.. so then they whine about how its not fair, and they blame feminism. because apparently in a world without feminism, women would choose the "nice guy" (and no these guys arent actually "nice")
(11:31:44 AM) i: Like attracts like.
(11:32:06 AM) i: They want everything to be handed to them.
(11:32:45 AM) p: this whole philosophy caters to a very unhealthy, insulated little ego.. its completely unrealistic. the MRAs for example actually think women need to return to very traditional values, like serving her man and seeing him as the head of the house and stuff.. thing is, are these guys going to take a break from playing video games and watching porn to fulfill the male counterparts role in this? NO.
(11:32:56 AM) i: What happened to putting in the effort? T_T
(11:33:46 AM) i: They want to be taken care if with no reciprocation
(11:33:51 AM) p: they want to be able to sit at home in moms basement or whatever crappy apt, fuck off and do as they like, but still find some 11/10 maxim hottie whos going to be subservient.. 
(11:33:52 AM) p: yes. its very narcissistic, and a lot of males 18-23 on the internet currently thing this way.. The Red Pill Return Of Kings - For masculine men
(11:35:22 AM) i: Even if they manage to find their unicorn, she's probably taken by someone that worked hard for her favor. (And only associates because she feels bad for the little bastard)


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

It's so easy to get over. Would you want some random person you're not interested in to come up to you and say they were being nice but you don't like them the way they like you. The answer is probably no. I'd skip the forgive, the forget and the ridicule and just teach them that simple thing. I rejected someone and I'm fine with that so I shouldn't be pissed if someone rejects me. That's how simple it is.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I think I get it.
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


I do feel guilty because I do sit at home playing video games and watching porn all day.

But I end up wanting to be the girl in the clip who gets abused rather than being the man who does the abuse.

So I got that going for me I suppose? xD


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## Silverdawn (Jun 28, 2014)

The nice guy syndrome can lead to a very dark path and I had to learn that lesson the hard way. It makes you vulnerable to manipulation from the opposite sex and you get wrapped up into that stuff so much you forget about reality and you let things go by which are totally unacceptable and shouldn't even form the basis of a normal relationship. Going after someone with the nice guy syndrome is setting yourself up to failure, either due to how you act yourself, or due to who you end up with.

Besides, being nice is something you should be like by default. You need, and you should, be doing a lot more in order to find someone that's good. Believe me, you don't want to deal with the alternative. Like I said, you're either setting yourself up to being used, emotionally, financially, ect. or just setting yourself up to plain disappointment and possible heart break that is totally unnecessary.


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## MightyLizardKing (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Here's an alternate interpretation: people who need love and validation and feel that the best way to obtain it is to be compassionate and caring.


OMFG I ACTUALLY CAN'T BELIEVE YOU JUST SAID THAT!!! 
Another perfect example of the misogynistic extremism women have to face every day of their lives. 
Disgusting.


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## CupcakesRDaBestBruv (Aug 6, 2013)

Easy


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Here's an alternate interpretation: people who need love and validation and feel that the best way to obtain it is to be compassionate and caring.


... Wow. Do you REALLY think the reason people complain about guys complaining about being friendzoned is because they are merely 'people who need love and validation'? Do you REALLY think that people being 'compassionate and caring' randomly became victimised out of thin air for no reason? 

I kinda get the feeling that you believe people's bad behaviour/ulterior motives/selfishness could not have possibly contributed to such accusations against guys in any way. No one is victimizing innocent males who have a big heart here, for goodness sake.

Being rejected and feeling disappointed is different from blaming other people out of bitterness for your own shortcomings. Belief that being 'compassionate and caring' will earn you a reward, then blaming others because you didn't get rewarded is not being 'compassionate and caring'.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Laura L said:


> ... Wow. Do you REALLY think the reason people complain about guys complaining about being friendzoned is because they are merely 'people who need love and validation'? Do you REALLY think that people being 'compassionate and caring' randomly became victimised out of thin air for no reason?


For no reason? No, I never said that. Though I'm not sure the reason is something that most people want to hear.

In any regard, I didn't say "my" interpretation was the only one or the most valid. However neither do I think the cynical female view of it is necessarily the most valid. The truth might lay somewhere in the middle.




> I kinda get the feeling that you believe people's bad behaviour/ulterior motives/selfishness could not have possibly contributed to such accusations against guys in any way. No one is victimizing innocent males who have a big heart here, for goodness sake.


That's not what I feel and good people are shat on all the time.

Here's what I think: a person is raised to believe that kindness and compassion are good things. They shower these traits on others, particularly people they are interested in romantically. When the person of interest fails to reciprocate they are hurt. They begin to doubt that being kind and considerate is actually a good thing because it brings them nothing good. They feel like clueless tools. 

The woman in this case, feels guilty for not being attracted to a nice, boring person, and shoves that guilt off on him by accusing him of trying to manipulate her, of pretending to be nice only to get sex. It's an incredibly cynical and simplistic view.

Do you think there is something sinister about the idea "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"

Somebody wants a partner who is kind and compassionate and understanding. So they behave this way towards a person they are attracted to. Is that just manipulation in your eyes?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

strayfire said:


> I do feel guilty because I do sit at home playing video games and watching porn all day.
> 
> But I end up wanting to be the girl in the clip who gets abused rather than being the man who does the abuse.
> 
> So I got that going for me I suppose? xD


Lol.. well I don't think theres anything wrong with having a fetish as long as one is still capable of healthy intimacy. : P


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> The woman in this case, feels guilty for not being attracted to a nice, boring person, and shoves that guilt off on him by accusing him of trying to manipulate her, of pretending to be nice only to get sex. It's an incredibly cynical and simplistic view.


I give no shits if I'm not attracted to someone. No one is bound by an obligation to be attracted to someone. Why would _anyone_ feel guilty because they're not attracted to someone? And why would anyone feel like the other feels guilty for not being attracted to them? The only answer I can think of is because they felt they deserved a reward for their 'niceness'.

I give no shits if someone is rejected and then feels like a 'clueless tool'. Why is it so hard to accept that rejection is a part of life? I feel like there is something about generation Y/Z that can't handle this concept. Pretty sure Baby Boomers would laugh at the concept of being friendzoned.

I don't think any employer would feel guilty of rejecting a job application because the potential employee was 'nice'. And the best course of action here is not to feel like a 'clueless tool' and then expect sympathy because you feel like a 'clueless tool' - it would be to accept that rejection is a part of life.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Lol.. well I don't think theres anything wrong with having a fetish as long as one is still capable of healthy intimacy. : P


About that...

xD


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

strayfire said:


> About that...
> 
> xD


aw : P


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Yomiel said:


> @Amine I'm getting kind of cynical of this viewpoint. Relationships are something that people try to 'achieve' because they're meaningful parts of our lives. A lot of guys want to win a girl's affection (so to speak) and are understandably upset when they're not able to enter a romantic relationship with someone who they wanted to be more than friends with. I don't think it's fair to vilify them for trying to enter a relationship with someone they liked and failing nor do I think it's fair to assume that they feel 'entitled' to a woman's body because they wanted more than friendship. Some of them may be superficial dicks just trying to get sex, but not all of them. And to be totally clear here, I'm not saying I like the idea of being a suck up or superficial. I just think it's not fair to act like all of these people are evil misogynists because they might be misinformed on how to enter relationships.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that a lot of people's frustration with being 'friend-zoned' is that they felt like they were purposefully duped and used.


The term is only applied to guys who do have a sense of entitlement. If they don't, then they're not "Nice guys". 

Assuming this guy really was "duped and used", wouldn't, "Wait, why the hell am I attracted to this loser!?" (since, having "duped and used" him, she would certainly be one) be a more appropriate reaction than, "You duped and used me! Now you owe me sex, bitch!"

I hope I don't need to point out that that last part was satire - i.e. I don't mean it literally. You wouldn't believe how many people reply having interpreted it literally.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Laura L said:


> I give no shits if I'm not attracted to someone. No one is bound by an obligation to be attracted to someone. Why would _anyone_ feel guilty because they're not attracted to someone? And why would anyone feel like the other feels guilty for not being attracted to them? The only answer I can think of is because they felt they deserved a reward for their 'niceness'.


Well then try harder to imagine other people's POV's. Empathy is an important tool for getting along with others in society.



> I give no shits if someone is rejected and then feels like a 'clueless tool'. Why is it so hard to accept that rejection is a part of life? I feel like there is something about generation Y/Z that can't handle this concept. Pretty sure Baby Boomers would laugh at the concept of being friendzoned.


Try giving a shit about others as far as relationships are concerned. It's a sign of compassion. Callousness isn't healthy.



> I don't think any employer would feel guilty of rejecting a job application because the potential employee was 'nice'. And the best course of action here is not to feel like a 'clueless tool' and then expect sympathy because you feel like a 'clueless tool' - it would be to accept that rejection is a part of life.


Are you a machine or a human being?


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Well then try harder to imagine other people's POV's. Empathy is an important tool for getting along with others in society. Try giving a shit about others as far as relationships are concerned. It's a sign of compassion. Callousness isn't healthy.
> Are you a machine or a human being?


I know what empathy is. But you don't get to play the feelings card as a rationalization for entitlement.

If your perspective had any validity in the workplace, it would be inhumane and inappropriate for an employer to hire people based on their competency rather than how nice they were in the interview.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Edit: When I saw the title of this thread I googled it since I'd never heard of _nice guy_ and _syndrome _used in the same phrase. This is what I found:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome



> *Nice guy is a term in Internet discourse describing an adult or teenage male with a fixation on a friendship building over time into a romance, most stereotypically by providing a woman with emotional support when she is having difficulties with another male partner.*


I assumed this was the subject of discussion and submitted a response criticizing the practice; however, on perusing the thread more closely I discovered this was not in fact what was being debated. So I've deleted my original message.


To the subject actually being debated it goes without saying dating is a process that carries the risk you won't get out of it what you put in. In that way, it's not unlike this debate, only a little more time consuming and often a lot less fun.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Laura L said:


> I give no shits if I'm not attracted to someone. No one is bound by an obligation to be attracted to someone. Why would _anyone_ feel guilty because they're not attracted to someone? And why would anyone feel like the other feels guilty for not being attracted to them? The only answer I can think of is because they felt they deserved a reward for their 'niceness'.
> 
> I give no shits if someone is rejected and then feels like a 'clueless tool'. Why is it so hard to accept that rejection is a part of life? I feel like there is something about generation Y/Z that can't handle this concept. Pretty sure Baby Boomers would laugh at the concept of being friendzoned.
> 
> I don't think any employer would feel guilty of rejecting a job application because the potential employee was 'nice'. And the best course of action here is not to feel like a 'clueless tool' and then expect sympathy because you feel like a 'clueless tool' - it would be to accept that rejection is a part of life.


I'd just like to point out your comparision between relationships and job interviews is pretty invalid. Deciding who's the best candidate for a job is a pretty impersonal decision, relationships are obviously not.

Also your shot at Gen Y/Z is pretty unfounded, and if you hold that view I'd say its likely just based on your own bias.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Laura L said:


> I know what empathy is. But you don't get to play the feelings card as a rationalization for entitlement.
> 
> If your perspective had any validity in the workplace, it would be inhumane and inappropriate for an employer to hire people based on their competency rather than how nice they were in the interview.


Relationships are not the workplace.


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## HumanBeing (May 28, 2014)

No amount of anything entitles you to a relation with someone. It's like a bird, they either fly away or they stay out of own choice. Anything else amount to putting someone in a cage.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Let me put it another way- a genuinely kind man may have female friends and is kind to women who are not attractive as well as those who are. Guys with nice guy syndrome are selectively nice to women they deem hot chicks, and may even mock fat women while being overweight themselves in extreme circumstances, but a huge clue is the selective niceties matched by rage when not met with the desired sexual reward.


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> When it did it become illegal to move from "friend" to "lover"?
> @Laura
> Try not to think in such stark extremes.


I don't see how it is a 'stark extreme' to know that women are allowed to reject people in a frank and concise manner without being vilified for being emotionless, merely because they didn't provide guilt and sympathy which you believe is owed to anyone who is rejected. I also don't see how it is a 'stark extreme' to know that you don't deserve things merely for being nice.

So, I'm curious. Where did I ever imply that it was illegal for friends to become lovers? You seem to ignore every attempt that people take to tell you that no one is entitled to things or sympathy merely for being nice. You still haven't grasped the concept that it is inappropriate to hinder another person's autonomy by complaining when they reject people in a frank manner or feel no guilt for rejecting another person.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Amine said:


> It happens when you are really desperate for a certain outcome so you decide the best way to get it is never to do things people don't like and also to try to kiss their ass so they will owe you something.
> 
> Eg., a guy really wants some vagoo, so he takes a girl out to the nicest restaurant in town and buys her flowers on the first date to try to impress her. This is the kind of guy who will be forever pussy whipped; he will find some wife eventually who he will let treat him like shit and nag him until his balls shrivel up and retreat back into his abdomen.


Not necessarily. There are three different versions of that.

1) the hopeless romantic...brings flowers because he's romantic, doesn't expect sex as payment, just enjoys things like candlelight and atmosphere, can be a good mate to the right woman, but a key point is that he does it simply out of being romantic or old fashioned...is still a reasonable confident man who can form adult relationships

2) Casanova...Casanova gets laid easily under a nice guy romantic front, until he is bored and moves on to the next woman; usually likes to talk about how much he "loves"'women. Is usually either attractive or charismatic and skilled in bed

3) wanna be Cassanova I.e. nice guy syndrome....due to physical or personality defects cannot live his dream of being Casanova and is severely pissed off, may eventually become what you describe, or conversely may become a serial killer


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## The Roving ENFP (Dec 21, 2010)

Tega1 said:


> What is nice guy syndrome? What causes it?


Good question. There is such thing as being a "Nice Guy" without having the traits of a doormat.
*But* for arguments sake:
Here are some (but not limited too or completely essential) traits that I think may help to create this _Syndrome_:
- _Out of control insecurity _ - potentially including a fear of rejection or a sense that they are "not good enough" for their social sphere.
- _Lack of healthy assertiveness_
- _Being a 'yes man' or being too agreeable_ - ie. not being able to say "no" when you need to or share your opinion where it might be helpful or healthy to do so.
- _Lack of confidence_
- _Indecisive_
- _People Pleasing_ - almost completely (if not completely) without the ability to please himself or reward himself....Ever.
- _Friendly_

The nice guy has many good traits and they are usually very "safe", friendly and sometimes fun people to be around, but they generally tend to lack assertion, lending itself to an inability to lead in an effective manner. They are seen as nice, because they are, in fact, very "nice" (friendly and fun) people to be around, but their sheer lack of decisiveness and their doormat behavior has meant that women do not find the average _"nice guy"_ to be a very desirable life-long partner. There are men who could potentially be referred too as _"nice guys"_ who also have assertive qualities, but strictly speaking, I would call these men _"gentlemen"_.

That's my fifty-five Australian dollars and seventy-three Australian cents worth.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Also, it would help clear things up with direct communication but I think it's understandable why some women don't feel comfortable with doing that even if they have a blunt personality.
If anyone has listened to the stories of women, there's not lacking of strangers who blow up in the woman's face when the woman rejects them. People they hardly know taking offense and then calling them an array of names.
It's no wonder many women don't want to outright reject some men when past experiences have been unpleasant and at worse, threatening.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Deathmint said:


> I'm surprised I didn't make the connection between this thread and what I've read elsewhere sooner. The ISTJs have some great perceptions on this. The term they have for this kind of person is "orbiter." It's buried in the ISTJ relationship thread, but one ISTJ challenged a woman to tell her "guy friends" that she wasn't interested in dating any of them and never would be. She took him up on it, and all of her guy friends disappeared. >.>; Tried looking for it to link, but can't find it.
> 
> The only thing I don't necessarily agree with is the general ISTJ view that opposite genders can't be friends at all. I think they can be. It just doesn't seem to be as common as the ulterior motive. However, I can understand why they generally hold this view since there is always a risk of http://personalitycafe.com/istj-forum-duty-fulfillers/57664-emotional-affairs.html


My ISTJ grandfather was generally the same, and he tried to convey this to me in no uncertain terms when I was about fifteen. What to my wonder and shiny surprise did I find after the senior prom a "friend" of mine since age twelve went around telling everyone I was a bitch because we only danced and hugged, and I gave him a kiss on the cheek. 

So I think ISTJs are on to something, at least with high school boys.

And yes I am not sure my ISTJ was capable of having truly platonic female friends, either, come to think of it ...but it doesn't strike me as ungodly alien as some immature self typed INTJs I have encountered who describe women in the most nauseating quid pro quo transaction terms I have ever viewed consistently by any claimed personality type.


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

there is no nice guy syndrome, its actually im not confident with myself because im always victimizing myself and selfishly directing a bunch of attention to myself and expect people to be more attentive to me than i am to them, putting myself on a pedestal and thinking im entitled to vagina for it but im too scared to actually ask anybody out because of this inferior yet superior complex that i made for myself syndrome
and the symptoms may include: the friend zone, not being successful in other areas of life, thought patterns that girls cant be as horny as guys and guys with the same natural libido as them are awful assholes, marrying a girl that treats you like hell, getting rammed in the ass by everyone you know
sources: i was there before, i still occasionally slip into self hate, an inferior superiority complex, and focusing on myself but am fighting it.
...nice guys dont finish last, inconfident, egotistical, superficial, creepy guys finish last
nice guys are guys who are nice for better reasons than being entitled to pussy


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Wellsy said:


> Well that's the crux of the nice guy thing.
> Any reasonable person understands it hurts to not have your interests reciprocated but you can't impose on another person's autonomy, the problem in these situations is misaligned goals.


How does a Nice Guy impose on her? Does he take her to court and get it mandated that she has to date him?

If he feels that it's unfair or mean that she doesn't like him then that's how he feels. He's _entitled_ to feel however he wants.




fourtines said:


> So ask yourself if you are being nice to women because you really want to be kind and hope to find a suitable mate, or if it's an act you are putting on to try to earn sex from some random women you are objectifying.



So what is the proper way to solicit sex from random women?

What if you are nice to random women in the hopes of having a meaningful relationship with one? Is that objectifying?

What if you are nice to a non-random woman in hopes of having a serious relationship and she rejects you and you feel bad. Is that entitlement?




Mr.Blayz said:


> there is no nice guy syndrome, its actually im not confident with myself because im always victimizing myself and selfishly directing a bunch of attention to myself and expect people to be more attentive to me than i am to them, putting myself on a pedestal and thinking im entitled to vagina for it but im too scared to actually ask anybody out because of this inferior yet superior complex that i made for myself syndrome


Oh, so the fairer sex.

Let's call it "Nice Person Syndrome", that's less sexist. I can get behind that. After all, nice people are irritating as all hell, always interrupting my thoughts and asking me inane questions about my day and state of being.




Laura L said:


> So, I'm curious. Where did I ever imply that it was illegal for friends to become lovers? You seem to ignore every attempt that people take to tell you that no one is entitled to things or sympathy merely for being nice. You still haven't grasped the concept that it is inappropriate to hinder another person's autonomy by complaining when they reject people in a frank manner or feel no guilt for rejecting another person.


I think the word you are looking for is empathy. If you aren't looking for it, then you should.


All I'm saying Laura is that maybe your judgement of these men is a little too harsh. Not entirely unfounded perhaps, but too harsh.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Wellsy said:


> Also, it would help clear things up with direct communication but I think it's understandable why some women don't feel comfortable with doing that even if they have a blunt personality.
> If anyone has listened to the stories of women, there's not lacking of strangers who blow up in the woman's face when the woman rejects them. People they hardly know taking offense and then calling them an array of names.
> It's no wonder many women don't want to outright reject some men when past experiences have been unpleasant and at worse, threatening.


I recently rejected a man I barely knew and did so in an extremely forthright manner. I never was his good pal, I never spent long periods of time chatting with him, I didn't exchange photos or flirt, and I told him point blank I was definitely not interested and thanks I already have a sexual relationship...he proceeded to verbally abuse and harass me online as though I had some how lead him on or had been unclear.

After high school I learned to be abrupt with men because of my experiences and also because of the pain any man or woman can cause by sending mixed signals (I have even had it happen to me)...so I still think abrupt is best. Every one except the occasional neckbeard psycho will be more appreciative if you don't lead them on ...in fact my mother taught me that leading someone on is an extremely dangerous thing to do.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Sourpuss said:


> How does a Nice Guy impose on her? Does he take her to court and get it mandated that she has to date him?
> 
> If he feels that it's unfair or mean that she doesn't like him then that's how he feels. He's _entitled_ to feel however he wants.


Well put it this way describing my guy friend, he's a handsome young chap.
One girl he barely knows, only met her once for a few minutes found out his mobile number, his birthday, his address and such. She sent him gifts and sweet things, he hadn't shown her the slightest bit of interest and wasn't going to. But you could imagine that when she comes to terms with the reality that he isn't going to become attracted to her, it's going to hurt. 

This is the same thing that can be done by men, they pine for the favor of a girl and they do all these things for them without them ever being requested and then when they don't receive what they want they get hurt.
Fair enough, it hurts, but what is wrong isn't being hurt, it's how that hurt acts out.

It's not unknown to either sex that people as described above respond poorly, they'll be derogatory to the individual and in some cases same to an entire sex.
This is a mild form of how bad it can get when someone doesn't get what they want. 
How prevalent this is, I don't know but it's common enough that this kind of story isn't unheard of around the world.

Do you agree that behaving this way is unjustified?
Because that's all that's on the table, criticism about the behaviour.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Sourpuss said:


> How does a Nice Guy impose on her? Does he take her to court and get it mandated that she has to date him?
> 
> If he feels that it's unfair or mean that she doesn't like him then that's how he feels. He's _entitled_ to feel however he wants.
> 
> ...


All feelings should be acknowledged but not necessarily acted upon, especially if you have made certain cognitive assumptions. I have assumptions about entitlement too, but a lot of that can be fixed with cognitive reframing.

I do understand if you feel pain when a woman genuinely seemed to care for you or flirted with you or even had sex with you, but no if random women simply reject you it isn't mean or unfair. I have been asking boys out since the fifth grade and I have been rejected too. You are not entitled to a chance with every person who you are attracted to. It's painful if there was perhaps mixed signals or an emotional affair, but the rest is a rather narcissistic sense of entitlement to have whatever you want. 

I think it's obvious the person who is genuinely kind versus the person who is nice to manipulate, come on. Do you have a hard time reading social cues?

Generally sexually successful people are well groomed and knock on lots of doors until they get a reply, instead of getting stuck on one dead end.


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

Sourpuss said:


> Oh, so the fairer sex.
> 
> Let's call it "Nice Person Syndrome", that's less sexist. I can get behind that. After all, nice people are irritating as all hell, always interrupting my thoughts and asking me inane questions about my day and state of being.
> 
> .


bringing up sexism because i called it nice guy syndrome, even though the thread asked what "nice guy syndrome" is, is focusing more on semantics than the point at hand. and the bit of sarcasm i sense only applies to actual nice guys, not the ones who are just nice to hot girls and complain because they arent successful with them because theyre too nice. Note that Im acclaiming that there is no nice guy syndrome, thats just what these guys blame their failure on when its really what i mentioned at the unquoted end of my argument


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Mr.Blayz said:


> bringing up sexism because i called it nice guy syndrome, even though the thread asked what "nice guy syndrome" is, is focusing more on semantics than the point at hand. and the bit of sarcasm i sense only applies to actual nice guys, not the ones who are just nice to hot girls and complain because they arent successful with them because theyre too nice. Note that Im acclaiming that there is no nice guy syndrome, thats just what these guys blame their failure on when its really what i mentioned at the unquoted end of my argument


Well I'm still not sure I see what the difference is. Nice is nice, isn't it? If you want casual sex, you shouldn't be nice? Is a nice guy someone who pretends to be nice but then turns into an abuser?



fourtines said:


> I think it's obvious the person who is genuinely kind versus the person who is nice to manipulate, come on. Do you have a hard time reading social cues?


I agree and in response to your question: I'm really not the best at reading social cues or body language.


I think the aspect of this I can't understand is how you decide when someone is just manipulating. I mean if you want to get really technical almost all interaction is manipulation. Though I understand it isn't meant that way in this context.

How do you know if a person is genuinely nice or just fake-nice? Is it just because they get upset, because they feel like women only like "jerks"?


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

The Roving ENFP said:


> Good question. There is such thing as being a "Nice Guy" without having the traits of a doormat.
> *But* for arguments sake:
> Here are some (but not limited too or completely essential) traits that I think may help to create this _Syndrome_:
> - _Out of control insecurity _ - potentially including a fear of rejection or a sense that they are "not good enough" for their social sphere.
> ...


Eh. You can probably list me down for all of those things. 

I'm aware that people find my behaviour a little strange. *shrugs*

Or you could put that down as "typical INFP" behaviour. 

That's ok. I'm probably still unconciously suffering from the 'nice guy syndrome'.

Except I don't get angry when women reject me. I talk around it and pretend nothing happened and continue as a friend.

I operate on the assumption that I am undateable. I have a lot of undesirable traits and physical features. 

So what? I couldn't care less. Change? No thank you.

You don't like what you see? Move on please. 

I'm nice to everyone. I'm just conflict adverse. If you hurt my feelings enough I'll probably just punch you in the face. Repeatedly.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Wellsy said:


> they pine for the favor of a girl and they do all these things for them without them ever being requested and then when they don't receive what they want they get hurt.


Okay, well this is a much more concrete definition of what a Nice Guy is. Being nice to someone and showering them with gifts and money and attention in a short time span, before getting to know them, is quite different. "Being nice" is vague.

So what if a man extends this period over a long period of time, spreading it out as it were instead of showering the girl all at once? 




Wellsy said:


> Do you agree that behaving this way is unjustified?
> Because that's all that's on the table, criticism about the behaviour.


The behavior you describe above? I wouldn't say it is "unjustified", I would just say it is unreasonable and unhealthy. I don't mean that it IS justified, I just don't think justification is applicable. It's an overzealous demonstration of affection.

It was never my perception that this was what a nice guy was. I guess I imagined something more toned down.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Isn't it safe to imagine that people who are interested in other people will shower their love interest with gifts and affection anyway?

Isn't it logical for them to stop when they realise that it is futile?


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

Sourpuss said:


> Well I'm still not sure I see what the difference is. Nice is nice, isn't it? If you want casual sex, you shouldn't be nice? Is a nice guy someone who pretends to be nice but then turns into an abuser?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what im saying is that the people who suffer from the supposed nice guy syndrome are actually just failing for other reasons and blaming nice guy syndrome, and being nice to girls and expecting to get rewarded because of that is being nice for all the wrong reasons. These nice guys more than often are self proclaimed nice guys, and you spot them not just crying but making accusations that girls that dont like them are in the wrong that they should like you because of ...


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> All I'm saying Laura is that maybe your judgement of these men is a little too harsh. Not entirely unfounded perhaps, but too harsh.


No. I entirely disagree that rejecting people without an obligation to feel bad for it is 'too harsh'.

In fact, I think your belief that it is perfectly okay to hinder someone else's autonomy for the sake of your own feelings, is harsh.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Laura L said:


> No. I entirely disagree that rejecting people without an obligation to feel bad for it is 'too harsh'.
> 
> In fact, I think your belief that it is perfectly okay to hinder someone else's autonomy for the sake of your own feelings, is harsh.


I don't think it is productive for you and I discuss this anymore. Best of luck.




Mr.Blayz said:


> being nice to girls and expecting to get rewarded


My only fault with what you are saying is that I don't think "niceness" is inherently devoid of any all expectation. I don't think the hypothesis "if I am nice people will like me enough to want to be my gf/bf" is an unreasonable one. At the very least it is intuitive, even if it is wrong.

So I think it is understandable to be hurt and confused when being pleasant and agreeable leaves you lonely and unloved.



strayfire said:


> Isn't it safe to imagine that people who are interested in other people will shower their love interest with gifts and affection anyway?
> 
> Isn't it logical for them to stop when they realize that it is futile?


Is that your definition of a nice guy or is that a consensus on what one is? Whatever the case may be, no, I don't think it is logical to continue with affection if s/he has made it clear there is no romantic interest. Further affection is a sign of mental illness, I'd say. Perhaps mild, but in some cases not-so-mild.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Sourpuss said:


> Well I'm still not sure I see what the difference is. Nice is nice, isn't it? If you want casual sex, you shouldn't be nice? Is a nice guy someone who pretends to be nice but then turns into an abuser?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A person who is genuinely nice is not expecting certain rewards. You are kind to be kind, and if someone does not appreciate, you simply retreat. Nice to manipulate means you know you are acting this way with the sole expectations of getting laid. It's fine and good to hope, not expect. And sometimes it is because you give too much. Feel taken advantage of? Maybe you really were, so have better boundaries next time, don't give so much to someone until they reciprocate more. Give, but give in appropriate measures, whether of time , money, emotion, or your body. 

When we throw ourselves at people who never asked us too, we are not being kind but actually selfish. Sometimes it's hard, I know, but you need to be more self aware.

Men who act out ARE "jerks" so that's a load of bull. People of both genders usually appreciate someone who values themselves appropriately...if you are making a doormat of your self don't be surprised when takers wipe their feet.


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## Nowhere Man (Apr 22, 2012)

What about people who are naturally nice and expect similar courtesy and respect in return? Is that a form of "entitlement"?


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Nowhere Man said:


> What about people who are naturally nice and expect similar courtesy and respect in return? Is that a form of "entitlement"?


That should be normal but it's generally not how the world works. I find a lot of people are just nice because they want something from you. Cynical? Maybe. But, it seems most of the time to be true, no?


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## 539885 (Feb 11, 2013)

stargazing grasshopper said:


> You were far too kind with your wording.
> I think that it's despicably deceitful to initiate a friendship under false pretense, because their intent from the get-go was to learn all about her with their end goal being manipulating her into a falsely conceived relationship that'll be built upon layers of deceit &/or outright lies.
> Sounds like something that a frigging con artist would attempt to pull over on a nice gal that otherwise wouldn't be the least bit interested in the schep.
> 
> Give those Aholes a newsflash would you! Women aren't fking retarded, they're going to recognize the bulls--t coming from miles away





Laguna said:


> Nice guy sydrome to me has nothing at all to do with the guy - but everything about the girl. The guys in my life who complained about experiencing this were being their genuine, nice selves. It was immature and unhealthy women that had issues with themselves and projected that onto the guys. So many women walk around trying to date and be dateable when they are clearly not ready for it, have Daddy issues, traumas and instability and then guys are scratching their heads saying, "What is wrong with me? What did I do?" I say to these guys, "Nothing is wrong with you. You didn't do anything wrong." Try to find women who are well enough to even be in the dating pool - it's these women who will appreciate you.


Requoting this because you stood up and made a point that is different from the other perspectives being most discussed here, as well as a compare-and-contrast to the more common one.

I can see what you mean with your view, @Laguna, and I have seen that happen. I've had a couple of guy friends in my life who were in destructive relationships like you talk about, just continuing to be loyal and kind and not able to figure out why they're being mistreated. It would bother me to no end, and I would pour a lot of energy into trying to get them to see that. And while I was never that kind of woman, I have had my own self-improvement to undergo and weaknesses to face.

However, my personal experience with guys more closely lines up with the first quoted post. I have definitely found my fair share of wolves posing as sheep, or just guys who don't handle hurt feelings in a mature manner. I agree with @fourtines that abrupt, direct communication is key. For me, it's also become a matter of being able to discern who I am dealing with. In the process of doing that, it's a bumpy road of miscommunication, misunderstanding, and projections on both sides.


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## Laguna (Mar 21, 2012)

Deathmint said:


> Requoting this because you stood up and made a point that is different from the other perspectives being most discussed here, as well as a compare-and-contrast to the more common one.
> 
> I can see what you mean with your view, @_Laguna_, and I have seen that happen. I've had a couple of guy friends in my life who were in destructive relationships like you talk about, just continuing to be loyal and kind and not able to figure out why they're being mistreated. It would bother me to no end, and I would pour a lot of energy into trying to get them to see that. And while I was never that kind of woman, I have had my own self-improvement to undergo and weaknesses to face.
> 
> However, my personal experience with guys more closely lines up with the first quoted post. I have definitely found my fair share of wolves posing as sheep, or just guys who don't handle hurt feelings in a mature manner. I agree with @_fourtines_ that abrupt, direct communication is key. For me, it's also become a matter of being able to discern who I am dealing with. In the process of doing that, it's a bumpy road of miscommunication, misunderstanding, and projections on both sides.



I read the first few pages of posts - this is a long thread. Yeah- no doubt those wolves in sheep's clothing exist for sure! I was focusing on the truly nice guys who think something is wrong with them. But the con artists out there deserve a swift kick to the nethers.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

@stargazing grasshopper @Laguna

I like your comments regarding nice guy syndrome, that broaden the scope of the discussion.

Some people are naturally good at detecting intention and genuineness (like a lot of Ni types) within a very short time, especially if the vibe giver can't bury the truth deep down.

Most people, young people especially, may take things/signs at surface level in the beginning. 

Time and caution are the best defense. Take time to get to know a new person. If a new person was too eager, came on too fast and hard, there may be something more to the eye. Be extra cautious if you have something covetable (trust fund, high paying job potential, extreme beauty, family connections, assets and properties....).

Women who have the personality to trust easily and/or have high level of emotional dependency should be extra, extra careful. A lot of abusive guys (now gals, too) are jackal and hyde. Just remember, the gaining of control is progressive until the cage door closes. DO NOT ignore pink flags.

It's not being cynical, just caution. The fact is, if you do have something someone wants and if that someone is really crafty and casts a long line, you may still be taken for a prey.


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## Nowhere Man (Apr 22, 2012)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> That should be normal but it's generally not how the world works. I find a lot of people are just nice because they want something from you. Cynical? Maybe. But, it seems most of the time to be true, no?


I agree. But I don't think it's bad of someone to expect common decency, and niceness in general shouldn't be shamed just because some people have ulterior motives.

On a side note, I've also noticed that a lot of people are conniving, opportunistic scumbags who will take advantage of genuinely nice people, so it really works both ways.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Nowhere Man said:


> I agree. *But I don't think it's bad of someone to expect common decency, and niceness in general shouldn't be shamed* just because some people have ulterior motives.
> .


That's not what nice guy syndrome is about though.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Nowhere Man said:


> What about people who are naturally nice and expect similar courtesy and respect in return? Is that a form of "entitlement"?


Being nice is expected; it's common courtesy, decency, politeness. Expecting sex in return for being nice is entitlement.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Nowhere Man said:


> I agree. But I don't think it's bad of someone to expect common decency, and niceness in general shouldn't be shamed just because some people have ulterior motives.
> 
> On a side note, I've also noticed that a lot of people are conniving, opportunistic scumbags who will take advantage of genuinely nice people, so it really works both ways.


"You give and that's it. Sometimes you get back and sometimes you don't. But either case, you give. That is what we teach our children"


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## Mr.Blayz (Nov 20, 2012)

stargazing grasshopper said:


> American youth have been so thoroughly brainwashed that they've lost the ability to think for themselves & forget about critical thinking unless somebody tells them how & what to think critically about.


i could say the same about your generation, but i already went too off topic


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## Nowhere Man (Apr 22, 2012)

strayfire said:


> "You give and that's it. Sometimes you get back and sometimes you don't. But either case, you give. That is what we teach our children"


That sounds like a surefire recipe for being taken advantage of. It's unfortunate, but true. If someone outright takes advantage of your giving nature, I don't think it would make you a bad person to stop giving to them. To continue doing so would be to enable them in a negative way. I learned this the hard way in a relationship with a borderline.


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## Nowhere Man (Apr 22, 2012)

ae1905 said:


> Being nice is expected; it's common courtesy, decency, politeness. Expecting sex in return for being nice is entitlement.


That sounds like common sense.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Nowhere Man said:


> That sounds like a surefire recipe for being taken advantage of. It's unfortunate, but true. If someone outright takes advantage of your giving nature, I don't think it would make you a bad person to stop giving to them. To continue doing so would be to enable them in a negative way. I learned this the hard way in a relationship with a borderline.


The idea is that you give gifts to everyone. Whether or not they reciprocate in an appropriate manner dictates whether you should continue or not. 

This is what I get for using quotes outside of their contexts. ^.^


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

stargazing grasshopper said:


> IDK I've cut back to 2 drinks - 2 nights weekly & I can definitely feel the stress hanging on.
> I feel like a hypocritical fool while writing this whiny comment upon the thread. I'm wondering why I haven't read anything regarding both sexes from the entitlement culture updating their visas & headed overseas in search of entitlement LOL.
> Were I single & socially challenged to a depth that dating was a dead end due to western entitlement expectations not panning out, I'd try my luck elsewhere. Likely temporarily move to the far east in search of women better suited to long term compatibility, maybe try out a few to see how well we gel & hopefully bring a potential Asian bride back to the US within a couple years.
> 
> ...


Thanks I respect what you are saying, and I think we both have managed to be where we wanted to be in life despite different choices, every positive choice also means choosing against something. In California I am as free as I have ever been, I am financially independent though not wealthy, rather than punching a clock, and spent many summer days frolicking on beaches or at the park/zoo..and evenings in restaurants or meeting successful and interesting people (though I avoid the celebrity scene entirely)..I live in Los Angeles and have the time and the means to enjoy it. I do local volunteer work a few times a month, and sure there are things I could want or improve, but at what cost to my sunsets on the beach ...I am about as free as a human gets without being independently wealthy. Freedom is precisely the word that describes my experience of Southern California. You will find the socialist borg up in phenomenally expensive and gentrified San Francisco. California is a huge state. I may end up like my mother, saying yes, my thirties were the best decade of my life. Who knows. To complain feels ungrateful.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Being nice is expected; it's common courtesy, decency, politeness. Expecting sex in return for being nice is entitlement.


I still disagree strongly with this concept. I don't see how there is any _expectation_, just desire. A want for sex and, generally, more than that. I think it is disingenuous to only mention the sexual aspect. What about the emotional intimacy? That's more important and it's generally what is central to an intimate relationship. People don't break down in tears because they won't be having as much sex. It's the emotional loss.

So to cut this part out of the narrative is to bias collective society against the "nice guy".



ae1905 said:


> It's not illegal, but it's not inevitable, either.


Nobody said or implied that.



fourtines said:


> Say a woman offers every single man she is attracted to free sex up front, then acts upset that some accepted her free gifts then slammed the door in her face. Yes the men in question are selfish, but do you really not put any responsibility on her at all for either being more cautious, or accepting that some men will be happy to use her?


I think sex is taking things to a whole new level, don't you? In any case, I never said the man had no responsibility. In fact what I've said many times is that both perspectives on this have merit.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Sourpuss said:


> I still disagree strongly with this concept. I don't see how there is any _expectation_, just desire. A want for sex and, generally, more than that. I think it is disingenuous to only mention the sexual aspect. What about the emotional intimacy? That's more important and it's generally what is central to an intimate relationship. People don't break down in tears because they won't be having as much sex. It's the emotional loss.
> 
> So to cut this part out of the narrative is to bias collective society against the "nice guy".


Well that's the thing, cut the sex part out of the narrative, and the nice guy doesn't even hang around the woman.
You can still have emotional intimacy without sex, but ask a girl to tell her guy friends that she doesn't think there's ever a chance of them having sex and a lot of them split.
Why is that?
It makes one question whether they really valued the person as they were or they were just hoping that some point the woman would want to fuck them.
This is the skepticism a lot of women have with men and i'd say with some men, do they really care about me or do they just want to fuck me.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Wellsy said:


> Well that's the thing, cut the sex part out of the narrative, and the nice guy doesn't even hang around the woman.
> You can still have emotional intimacy without sex, but ask a girl to tell her guy friends that she doesn't think there's ever a chance of them having sex and a lot of them split.
> Why is that?


By sex do you mean "relationship"?

In that case they split because it is painful to be around someone you desire when you know you can't ever be with them.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Sourpuss said:


> By sex do you mean "relationship"?
> 
> In that case they split because it is painful to be around someone you desire when you know you can't ever be with them.


For some that is the case, but I wouldn't agree that it's always that way.
There are women whom I would've enjoyed a relationship with and am still friends with today, it's the maturity to know that you don't have to act on your attraction, that we are responsible for ourselves.
That pain is, I didn't get what I want and I struggle to accept that so I'm going to distance myself.
And by sex I don't inherently mean relationship since sex doesn't require one.
Even if they wanted a relationship, person still has to come to terms with that.

I think your issue is you're considering when a guy isn't in the wrong and taking the nice guy thing as to be an insult to men in general who are just wanting to find some love, but that's not the prerequisite for what makes the "nice guy". It's not about picking on men who are wanting affection and stuff, that's a basic human want, it's about calling bullshit on those who are disingenuous about their intentions and when their intentions come to light and the other person doesn't agree with them, they spit the dummy and behave bitterly.
It's understandable to see why some men and women will act out of pain but it doesn't justify inflicting pain on others via words or actions which is the case with some people. Once they are hurt, they are nasty to the person they supposedly cared about, which is something interesting with people that they one moment talk about how perfect and wonderful someone is, the moment that they don't do something that want they are the worst things ever.
So makes one wonder whether they even pursued a real person but an imagination of what that person was.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

Wellsy said:


> I think your issue is you're considering when a guy isn't in the wrong and taking the nice guy thing as to be an insult to men in general who are just wanting to find some love, but that's not the prerequisite for what makes the "nice guy".


You may be right. So here's a question for you: do you think many men get placed under this label wrongly?


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Sourpuss said:


> You may be right. So here's a question for you: do you think many men get placed under this label wrongly?


I think some do, some people are too quick to shame.
It's the same with the label creep, some people are down right insulting and feel justified.
I also don't think it helps to insult these "nice guys" but some are impatient and only see what's wrong with them rather than trying to explain why people take issue with their thought process.
But I'm afraid there is nothing to be done about idiots who are reckless with their words other than to stick it to them when they misuse them.


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## herinb (Aug 24, 2013)

Hmmmmm




What are the diagnostic criteria for this Nice Guy Syndrome?


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## HumanBeing (May 28, 2014)

herinb said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The expectation of entitlement to a romantic or sexual relationship, as compensation for kindness.


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## Stelmaria (Sep 30, 2011)

HumanBeing said:


> The expectation of entitlement to a romantic or sexual relationship, as compensation for kindness.


That is not "Nice guy syndrome", that is "Entitlement syndrome".

Actually, I've decided I will try to clarify this. The characteristic behaviour is entitlement - expecting something in return, rather than merely being nice. Hence "Nice guy syndrome" is a misleading name.




stargazing grasshopper said:


> What's the root cause? Don't reply Feminism, MRAs/Neckbeards, because they're merely unwitting players within a much grander performance. Social ineptitude is merely a tool rather than a cause, it's a small moon within the solar ""system"".


The root cause is the nature of our communication. We are taught to play our cards close to our heart. We are taught not to express our needs, our feelings and our true intentions otherwise we'll be seen as vulnerable and others take advantage of us. (As you can see, this doesn't exactly work as intended).


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> I still disagree strongly with this concept. I don't see how there is any _expectation_, just desire. A want for sex and, generally, more than that. I think it is disingenuous to only mention the sexual aspect. What about the emotional intimacy? That's more important and it's generally what is central to an intimate relationship. People don't break down in tears because they won't be having as much sex. It's the emotional loss.
> 
> So to cut this part out of the narrative is to bias collective society against the "nice guy".


If there is no expectation, then why do guys complain that women used them by taking their kindness and not giving them sex (and intimacy) in return? Why the hate if there is no sense that they were cheated?



> Nobody said or implied that.


But isn't the syndrome guys going public complaining they didn't get what they wanted in return for their kindness? How is this not a sense of entitlement?


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

*Scenario 1:* Nice guy is nice to a girl. 

Said "nice guy" continues this friendship while being nice to the girl, does not tell her about his intentions for an extended period (eg. 2 years) of time, expecting a relationship to blossom but it doesn't. 

This "Nice Guy" becomes frustrated that the woman does not reciprocate or respond to him being nice. 

The "Nice Guy" vents out his anger when he is eventually rejected by the woman after asking her and feels like she "owes" him a relationship after all of this. 

*Scenario 2:* Nice guy is nice to a girl. 

Said nice guy remains nice to the girl and tells the girl about his intentions. The girl leads him on pretending to want a relationship. The Nice Guy is expecting a relationship to blossom but it doesn't. 

This Nice Guy becomes frustrated that the woman does not reciprocate. 

The Nice Guy vents out his sorrow and feels like he got used after all of this. 
*
There is a clear difference between the two. *


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

herinb said:


> Hmmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Google is your friend. And tumblr.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> I still disagree strongly with this concept. I don't see how there is any _expectation_, just desire.


Let me use an analogy. Pick any game or sport. You compete against someone. You _want_ to win. You try hard. But you lose. If you believe you lost fair and square, do you go and complain about your opponent? No. She played by the rules and won. But if you believe the rules were not enforced or your opponent cheated, then you probably would complain, even publicly.

Complaint is a sign that you believe you were cheated. That you were _owed_ something--eg, fairness, a reward for your effort--that you didn't receive.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Or *slap* 

Wake up.

It's life.

Grow some, it's unfair. Duh.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

*Elliot Rodger and The Nice Guy Syndrome*

by Dr. Robert Glover on May 27th, 2014. 26 comments








Within hours of Elliot Rodger’s violent rampage in Santa Barbara, my inbox began to fill up with email from self-professed “Nice Guys” commenting on the tragedy. Short of the homicidal rage, many could relate to aspects of Rodger’s situation.

As I present in my book, *No More Mr. Nice Guy* (Running Press, 2003), Nice Guys are men who consciously or unconsciously believe they are somehow fundamentally flawed and have to become what other people want them to be (“nice”), in order to be loved and liked and get their needs met.

*The Nice Guy Syndrome*

In his YouTube rants, Rodger calls himself the “perfect guy” and a “supreme gentleman.” When his parents alerted the police to his social-media posts, the authorities found him to be a “perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human.”

Elevated views of self, polite behavior, social isolation, and difficulty connecting deeply are common traits among the Nice Guys with whom I work. Due to inaccurately internalized beliefs about childhood and adolescent events, they tend to overcompensate for their feelings of inferiority.

Elliot Rodger seems to reflect this kind of Nice Guy mentality.

*Covert Contracts*

Nice Guys seek approval and validation through what I call “covert contracts.” Typical covert contracts are three-fold:

*1. **If I am a good guy, then people will like me and love me (and people I desire will desire me).

2. If I meet other people’s needs without their having to ask, then they will meet my needs without my having to ask.

3. If I do everything right, then I will have a smooth, problem-free life. **However, these don’t work for a number of reasons.*

First, the Nice Guy’s covert contracts are grounded in a deep emotional belief of not being good enough, and the Nice Guy himself is often unconscious of them or their source.

Second, others typically do not realize these contracts exist and are often surprised when the Nice Guy lashes out at their failure to keep their end of the deal.

Third, covert contracts are basically a form of magical thinking that don’t reflect reality.

Typically, over time, as Nice Guys hide their wants and needs from others and seek approval through their covert contracts, their rage and resentment build. And these dark emotions always find a way out, most commonly through manipulation, passive-aggressive behavior, and “victim pukes.”

Most Nice Guys compartmentalize these behaviors while holding on to the conviction that they are “one of the nicest guys you will ever meet.”

As I state in my book, for these and many other reasons, no matter how well meaning and sincere Nice Guys might be, they are often anything but “nice.”

When Nice Guys fail to get their needs met, and when people around them fail to appreciate, validate, or desire them in ways they believe they deserve, the only option these men see is to try harder, doing more of the same. As a result, the Nice Guy Syndrome perpetuates their feelings of helplessness, frustration, resentment, and worthlessness.

In the aftermath of the Santa Barbara tragedy, it is easy to see many parallels between Elliot Rodger’s YouTube rants, written manifesto, and core Nice Guy characteristics. Thus, the many emails I have received.

Rodger proclaimed himself to be a “perfect guy” and a “supreme gentleman,” whom women overlooked for “obnoxious brutes.” He complained of being a virgin who had never been kissed and was constantly rejected by women. To “all those girls I’ve desired so much,” he says, “you will finally see that I am the superior one, the true alpha male.

“I've wanted love, affection, adoration. You think I’m unworthy of it. That's a crime that can never be forgiven.”

Like many Nice Guys, Rodger believed he was entitled to attention, affection, and sex from the women he desired. And since he believed he was such a “supreme gentlemen,” women should also see this and choose him over lesser men.

Not only can the typical Nice Guy not figure out why this paradigm doesn’t work for getting women and sex, they see no alternative approach. They’ve followed the rules, so everyone else should, too!

*Rage and Resentment toward Women*

It is common for the men I work with to objectify women – especially attractive women – and see them as the ultimate validation of their worth. When such women don’t desire them back, they come to see these once-glorified objects as terrible creatures who are willfully and spitefully withholding the key to their happiness. I refer to these women as “Key-Holding Goddesses.”

Media and easy access to online porn only fuel this glorification of women as objects of desire. Many Nice Guys have struggled since adolescence with porn obsession.

Many also have difficulty connecting with and dating the kind of women they desire. They put attractive women on a pedestal and then either avoid talking to them (which of course significantly decreases the possibility of these women even knowing they exist) or try to befriend and be nice to them. These men hope such women will eventually see what a great catch they are (especially compared to the “jerks” attractive women seem more inclined to choose).

Because Nice Guys put attractive women on a pedestal and crave their approval, they tend to feel rage and resentment when they believe they’ve kept their end of the covert contract (being “nice” and different from other men), while the women have failed to keep theirs.

It is important to note that Nice Guys themselves are both player and “score keeper” in this game. They assume that, since they do nice things, aren’t like other “bad” men, and have their own unique goodness, they have kept their side of their covert contracts. When the other team (attractive women) fail to play by the rules, Nice Guys wait helplessly for the giant referee in the sky to blow his whistle and impose a penalty. Elliot Rodger decided to play ref himself.

Many Nice Guys covertly or overtly resent women – especially women who seem to have high social status just for having won the genetic lottery. They obsess about, “crush” on, and then rage at these “sexual celebrities.”

There is a paradox here that most Nice Guys (and men in general) fail to get. It is men who put attractive women on pedestals and give them this one-dimensional value and status. And then it is these same men who resent the Key-Holding Goddesses for their status – and perhaps their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability.

Elliot Rodger manifested this dynamic, a family representative revealed that Rodger didn’t have a lot of friends, had trouble making friends, and didn’t have any girlfriends.

Here is how Rodger expressed his own rage toward women in his videos and written manifesto: “On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house at UCSB, and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blond slut I see inside there.”  

Rodger said in his final video, “I will be a god compared to you. You will all be animals. You are animals, and I will slaughter you like animals. I hate all of you. Humanity is a disgusting, wretched, depraved species.

“You think I’m unworthy of you. That’s a crime I can never get over. If I can’t have you girls, I will destroy you. You denied me a happy life, and in turn I will deny all of you life. It’s only fair.

“All of you girls who rejected me, looked down upon me, you know, treated me like scum while you gave yourselves to other men ... I hate all of you. I can’t wait to give you exactly what you deserve — annihilation.”

Rodger’s vengeful and homicidal rants represent a Nice Guy “victim puke” on steroids.

*Pick Up*

Apparently, Elliot Rodger’s rage and resentment weren’t reserved just for women. He also seemed to feel victimized by pickup artists and the online pickup community. He reportedly was active in an online anti-PUA forum, PUAHate.com.

I have often stated that I have mixed feelings about the pickup community. Many of their principles and techniques “work” to get the attention of women and their coaching and boot camps can help some men get over their anxiety and insecurity and learn how to approach and connect with women.

On the other hand, many pickup coaches and gurus prey on insecure, vulnerable men, selling them magic and making them more obsessed with and rageful toward attractive women. They target the most attractive women and fan the insecure narcissism of “scoring” as many prizes as possible. Meanwhile, these coaches and gurus take their disciples’ money and turn them into nothing more than “geeks with techniques.”

*The Blame*

Following a tragedy like this in Santa Barbara, it is easy to speculate and cast blame. Here are a few easy candidates:

*A Culture That Glorifies Violence*. Yes, Elliot Rodger grew up in a society permeated with violence in television, movies, video games, and the media. We can’t get enough of it. But violent culture isn’t the answer.

*The Internet, Blogosphere, and Social Media*. Online forums, chat rooms, and blogs provide soapboxes from which any jack wagon can stir things up – even spread hate and lies – and feel powerful. But we can’t blame the internet.

*Sensationalism of Mainstream Media.* I’ve often said that too much of mainstream media aims at turning idiots and criminals into heroes and household names. I have no doubt that Rodger will be on the cover of _People_ (perhaps even _Rolling Stone_) within days. But we can’t lay Santa Barbara at the media’s doorstep.

*Pick-Up Artists*. As I’ve said, pickup coaches and gurus prey on the insecure and vulnerable, and when the magic tricks fail to make attractive women putty in their hands, these men often feel even more helpless and disillusioned. But it’s not the PUAs’ fault.

*The Porn Industry. *I have no idea if Rodger was into porn, so I won’t even speculate. But even though a few talking heads have tried to explain this tragedy by pointing at socially accepted violence toward women in pornography, we can’t blame porn.

*Culturally Accepted Misogyny*. Rodger’s anti-female rants have brought the feminists out of the woodwork. Even though Rodger is obviously homicidally rageful at women, as I write this, the body count includes more men than women. We can’t put this on misogyny.

*Guns*. I’m a proponent of saner gun laws in the US, but gun-control activists can’t claim this one. Rodger stabbed three men in his apartment before his shooting rampage and rammed people with his car. Maybe we should ban sharp objects and cars too, but we can’t solely blame our insane gun laws.

*Privilege and Entitlement.* I know nothing about Rodger’s childhood or family other than that his father is a Hollywood director, and he was driving a BMW in his videos and shooting rampage. But entitlement isn’t the villain either.

*The Answer?*

If we are looking for the answer to why a privileged 22-year-old man would do something so irrational and seemingly insane, it is simply this: *what Elliot Rodger did was irrational and insane.*

I know this isn’t an easy or sexy answer, but killing many innocent people, taking one’s own life, and broadcasting the plan over social media are all signs of a broken brain.

*Elliot Roger was mentally Ill.*

I didn’t know him, and I’m in no position to diagnose, but here is what I do know.

First, I have worked with countless men who express many of Elliot Rodger’s beliefs and frustrations, yet none of them has been homicidal. While these men may have irrational and dysfunctional beliefs about the world, their minds don’t convince them it makes sense to go on a shooting rampage.

Second, any time it does makes sense to a person’s mind to enter a school, a theater, a library, a post office, or a sorority house and start randomly killing innocent people, this is mental illness. No other conclusion can be drawn, no matter how badly we might want to mount our own personal soapboxes following such an inexplicable tragedy.

*Sane minds may feel victimized, even plot fantasy revenge, but they don’t cross certain lines. Mentally ill minds don’t realize how far they have crossed over the line.*

I don’t have any greater answer. But as a society, we have to take mental illness seriously and quit blaming straw men we can so easily prop up and knock down.

We still know so little about the human brain and why it breaks, but it is worth our time and financial investment to learn all we can, help mentally disturbed people like Elliot Rodger, and prevent similar tragedies.

Perhaps people with the power to make a difference will stop focusing on all the wrong issues and make an investment in finding answers to the one that matters most.

*Robert A. Glover, Ph.D.*


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Complaint is a sign that you believe you were cheated. That you were _owed_ something--eg, fairness, a reward for your effort--that you didn't receive.


I would say that in sports we are definitely owed fairness.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> I would say that in sports we are definitely owed fairness.


So these guys are complaining about women not returning their kindness with sex and/or intimacy. Do you agree they're complaining because they think they were treated unfairly?


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> So these guys are complaining about women not returning their kindness with sex and/or intimacy. Do you agree they're complaining because they think they were treated unfairly?


Yes, I agree with that. They feel the sexual dynamics are unfairly skewed against them.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Yes, I agree with that. They feel the sexual dynamics are unfairly skewed against them.


These guys feel they were unfairly treated because they played by the rules but the women didn't. In other words, they _expected_ women to return their kindness with sex and/or intimacy.

Is this what you mean by "sexual dynamics skewed against them"?


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> These guys feel they were unfairly treated because they played by the rules but the women didn't. In other words, they _expected_ women to return their kindness with sex and/or intimacy.
> 
> Is this what you mean by "sexual dynamics skewed against them"?


Yes, that's reasonable. Though I object to your use of "expected" because I think you are trying to subtly indicate these men are "entitled". Once more, I think that's a biased way to look at it. They, rightly or wrongly, thought the rules were a certain way. Obviously they aren't.

I don't think being unhappy that at the end of the night they're going to die alone and unloved, because of this mistake, makes them bad people.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Yes, that's reasonable. Though I object to your use of "expected" because I think you are trying to subtly indicate these men are "entitled". Once more, I think that's a biased way to look at it. They, rightly or wrongly, thought the rules were a certain way. Obviously they aren't.


I'm not trying to be "subtle"; I _am_ saying they feel entitled to receive sex and/or intimacy in exchange for their kindness. That's why they complain when women choose jerks instead of them.



> I don't think being unhappy that at the end of the night they're going to die alone and unloved, because of this mistake, makes them bad people.


There's no reason these guys can't review their experiences, listen to what others say, and learn a different approach to give themselves a better chance. Especially since most of them are young. Youth especially is the time to experiment, make mistakes, and learn.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> I'm not trying to be "subtle"; I _am_ saying they feel entitled to receive sex and/or intimacy in exchange for their kindness. That's why they complain women are _____ because they choose jerks instead of them.


Well my central objection is that this the word "entitlement" doesn't fit.

What makes their entitlement different from anyone else's?


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Well my central objection is that this the word "entitlement" doesn't fit.
> 
> What makes their entitlement different from anyone else's?


Do you agree with this definition of _entitlement_?


en·ti·tle·ment _noun_ \-ˈtī-t[SUP]ə[/SUP]l-mənt\: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Do you agree with this definition of _entitlement_?
> 
> 
> en·ti·tle·ment _noun_ \-ˈtī-t[SUP]ə[/SUP]l-mənt\: the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something


Yes, I know what the dictionary definition is. However the context in which it can use can alter that meaning quite a bit. As it is commonly used in this thread it means an _unjustified_ or _unsupported_ or _unreasonable_ feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something.

I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that kindness and consideration should warrant reciprocation, in principal. The problem is not that their belief that being nice should warrant affection. Why shouldn't it? The problem is they, as was discussed in previous pages, that they pour too much affection on a person at once and respond badly if they are refused.

I think that villainizing many of these guys is the wrong approach. What they need is emotional support to overcome their perceived inferiority so they can develop a healthier mindset.


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## Laguna (Mar 21, 2012)

In general (and not looking to debate this) but men view sex more in physical terms and women in more emotional terms. This is a disconnect - particularly with the young, dating population. What women perceive as intimacy (primarily emotional) and men (primarily physical) meshes together and gets skewed and then feelings sometimes get hurt. Obviously sex is both physical and emotional for both genders - but overall, men and women are wired differently in this regard.

Add personalities to it. Sex for me is quite an emotional thing. If I don't have an emotional connection to you - there is no way in hell there would ever be any chance for sex with me. The more sex I would have with you, likely the more emotional connection I would feel. (Not necessarily for the man.)


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> Yes, I know what the dictionary definition is. However the context in which it can use can alter that meaning quite a bit. As it is commonly used in this thread it means an _unjustified_ or _unsupported_ or _unreasonable_ feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something.


Nothing in that definition suggests entitlement is justified or not. In fact, it can be used both ways. So guys play by the rules and are nice to women in expectation women will play by the rules and reciprocate with sex and/or intimacy. They feel they deserve sex and/or intimacy, that they are _entitled_.



> I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that kindness and consideration should warrant reciprocation, in principal. The problem is not that their belief that being nice should warrant affection. Why shouldn't it?


What do you mean by "affection"? 



> The problem is they, as was discussed in previous pages, that they pour too much affection on a person at once and respond badly if they are refused.
> 
> I think that villainizing many of these guys is the wrong approach. What they need is emotional support to overcome their perceived inferiority so they can develop a healthier mindset.


When guys publicly denounce women no-one should be surprised that women respond in kind. But I agree these guys do need support to change their outlook on women and life.


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## HumanBeing (May 28, 2014)

strayfire said:


> I once liked a girl. She was a self-proclaimed "femininst" and I admired her for that.
> 
> I told her I liked her. She rejected me and I was pretty heartbroken.
> 
> ...


*hug*


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## Chiaroscuro (Jul 10, 2012)

HumanBeing said:


> There can be no excuse for someone who makes a false rape accusation. And you would be a fool for even mildly associating yourself with such an act.


Yeah, I agree with that. No doubt she got a psych consult after her fine/imprisonment. 


But it's still funny.


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## HumanBeing (May 28, 2014)

Chiaroscuro said:


> Yeah, I agree with that. No doubt she got a psych consult after her fine/imprisonment.
> 
> 
> But it's still funny.


I doubt you would find it funny if it happened to you. Have some compassion for crying out loud.


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## AFO_Rabbit (Aug 21, 2014)

strayfire said:


> I once liked a girl. She was a self-proclaimed "femininst" and I admired her for that.
> 
> I told her I liked her. She rejected me and I was pretty heartbroken.
> 
> ...


That is just despicable...not even a shred of decency exist there. Sorry for what you went through man, this has to be the worst thing I ever heard happen to a person for doing nothing wrong at all. I know for sure, God remembers and will not give mercy to whom intentionally destroy a innocent person for reasons that doesn't make sense at all. She's a evil person.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm just saying that it's just as possible for a woman to treat a man like shit. 

This is usually not the case, but it does happen to both sides of the equation.

I am glad that nobody tried stabbing me or giving me date-rape drugs tho. 

(I still think I have two kidneys too!)

^.^


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## Laura L (Aug 3, 2014)

strayfire said:


> I once liked a girl. She was a self-proclaimed "femininst" and I admired her for that.
> 
> I told her I liked her. She rejected me and I was pretty heartbroken.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you went through that, but this has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with a flawed individual. My post was in the context of wider society, what is common and normalized - not in the context of women can do no wrong. Of course everyone will have their own personal experiences that differ from the black and white generalisation.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Laura L said:


> I am sorry you went through that, but this has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with a flawed individual. My post was in the context of wider society, what is common and normalized - not in the context of women can do no wrong. Of course everyone will have their own personal experiences that differ from the black and white generalisation.


I know. 

I just thought it was relevant to put some personal experiences into the thread. 

^.^


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## nonstampcollector (Jul 21, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> I think most men are aware they may be called a 'jerk, asshole, idiot ect..' if they reject a woman and the woman gets angry at him. You do make a fair point that the man is less likely to feel uncomfortable or unsafe because of it. I'm not sure though that the amount of women who call men those names is much less than the amount of men who call women the names you mentioned.


In my own personal experience this much is true. I used to date an ENFJ who would often pressure me to have sex with her, the instances in which I declined I'd get all kinds of verbal abuse _"You're a fucking asshole."_ However, on the flipside the times in which she declined (if there were even any at all) I was (would have been) completely understanding.

This behaviour does exist on both sides, I would wager it's more down to personality rather than which set of chromosomes you're packing. Obviously, men have been brought up to the fanfare of "you're the man of the house, the breadwinner, the alpha!" And because of this conditioning, they're more likely to act upon a snotty sense of entitlement rather than that of women who have been brought up to be subservient to their man.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)




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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Laura L said:


> I am sorry you went through that, but this has nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with a flawed individual. My post was in the context of wider society, what is common and normalized - not in the context of women can do no wrong. Of course everyone will have their own personal experiences that differ from the black and white generalisation.


I think the bigger point is your initial black and white generalization is wrong.

Men are not more likely to blame women for being rejected, and women are not more likely to blame themselves. It comes down to the individual.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Sporadic Aura said:


> I think the bigger point is your initial black and white generalization is wrong.
> 
> Men are not more likely to blame women for being rejected, and women are not more likely to blame themselves. It comes down to the individual.


Someone should do research on this. 

I am willing to bet one is more than the other. Not sure of which. 

Said research will be difficult.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

strayfire said:


> Someone should do research on this.
> 
> I am willing to bet one is more than the other. Not sure of which.
> 
> Said research will be difficult.


I'm not sure how you could objectively research that. Although I highly doubt there there would be a statistically significant difference either way.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

Well I doubt it would be possible, but my hypothesis is that it would be more prevalent in one gender.


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