# Help me type myself and suggest a best fit MBTI to date (( was formerly Compatibility between INFJ and INTP vs ENTJ and INTP))



## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Well my last relationships did not go so well (all of mine have been online since 2020 and still are so far. I've only had two in person, both very short and also failing quickly).

I read before that INFJ (other person in these cases) and INTP were good combo because both being romantic non-starters/snowflake syndrome types, and therefore seeing eye to eye socially, but I actually don't find that much in common with them particularly on values (I'm very down to earth, ends justifies the means, not into romantic stuff). I've found marginally more in common with INFPs before.

I also read ENTJ (the pure choleric) would be a better pair, because ENTJs are basically INTPs with a backbone in my eyes, and I've had a relationship with an ENTJ fail on similar-ish grounds for not sharing values again (same ones - only caring about goals not love, pragmatic, wanting to use each other as tools codependently...). That said, some other people close in my life (mostly irl) are ENTJ.

I know this site is quite heavy on people with similar types (ENFP, ENFJ, INTJ, etc) so would any of you be able to point me if I'm doing things wrong, I shouldn't be focusing on or considering MBTI in dating, etc etc?


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Well my last relationships did not go so well (all of mine have been online since 2020 and still are so far. I've only had two in person, both very short and also failing quickly).
> 
> I read before that INFJ (other person in these cases) and INTP were good combo because both being romantic non-starters/snowflake syndrome types, and therefore seeing eye to eye socially, but I actually don't find that much in common with them particularly on values (I'm very down to earth, ends justifies the means, not into romantic stuff). I've found marginally more in common with INFPs before.
> 
> ...


Well, aside from the fact that you're very obviously an ESTP.

When it comes to my thoughts on INTP and ENTJ, I think INTP and ENTJ work very well as friends, colleagues, co-workers, etc and would probably seem like a better companion in an online relationship, but in real life the romance would be lacking and eventually become a scenario where two friends are living together but that's kind of it. 

As for what I think you should do, keeping in regard the first thing I wrote in this reply, I think you would be much better off in a long-term relationship with an INFJ. If you've already met 3-4 female INFJs then you should consider yourself to be quite lucky, as INFJs are quite rare.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, aside from the fact that you're very obviously an ESTP.
> 
> When it comes to my thoughts on INTP and ENTJ, I think INTP and ENTJ work very well as friends, colleagues, co-workers, etc and would probably seem like a better companion in an online relationship, but in real life the romance would be lacking and eventually become a scenario where two friends are living together but that's kind of it.
> 
> As for what I think you should do, keeping in regard the first thing I wrote in this reply, I think you would be much better off in a long-term relationship with an INFJ. If you've already met 3-4 female INFJs then you should consider yourself to be quite lucky, as INFJs are quite rare.


I'm an ESTP? Most tests will score me as INTJ or rarely ISFJ. INTP is because I'm supine choleric (perhaps supine melancholic possible - ISTP). How did you get ESTP?

I definitely get what you're saying about the in real life part breaking down.
I find INFJs online because I look for 'free thinkers' like me. But my patience is equally short, and rarity doesn't matter to me any more than compatibility, it's just my personal experiences.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> I'm an ESTP? Most tests will score me as INTJ or rarely ISFJ. INTP is because I'm supine choleric (perhaps supine melancholic possible - ISTP). How did you get ESTP?
> 
> I definitely get what you're saying about the in real life part breaking down.
> I find INFJs online because I look for 'free thinkers' like me. But my patience is equally short, and rarity doesn't matter to me any more than compatibility, it's just my personal experiences.


I used to do this kind of stuff for a living, not for very long but long enough to figure things out pretty fast.

Well, an ESTP would do best long-term, and I mean like long-term monogamous for the rest of both of your lives, with an INFJ. That's what theory says, it'd be up to you to decide who you would be most compatible with.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I used to do this kind of stuff for a living, not for very long but long enough to figure things out pretty fast.
> 
> Well, an ESTP would do best long-term, and I mean like long-term monogamous for the rest of both of your lives, with an INFJ. That's what theory says, it'd be up to you to decide who you would be most compatible with.


Explains things-

Ah okay, I misunderstood you earlier. Definitely not an ESTP here although that sounds nice to be. What would an INTP do best with iyo, should it matter?

(My ex's new guy is likely an ESTP, actually, now that I think about it).


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I used to do this kind of stuff for a living, not for very long but long enough to figure things out pretty fast.
> 
> Well, an ESTP would do best long-term, and I mean like long-term monogamous for the rest of both of your lives, with an INFJ. That's what theory says, it'd be up to you to decide who you would be most compatible with.


And also IDT me meeting INFJs implies me being ESTP.





Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, aside from the fact that you're very obviously an ESTP.
> 
> When it comes to my thoughts on INTP and ENTJ, I think INTP and ENTJ work very well as friends, colleagues, co-workers, etc and would probably seem like a better companion in an online relationship, but in real life the romance would be lacking and eventually become a scenario where two friends are living together but that's kind of it.


Yes so that explains my familial and friend connections working out better.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Explains things-
> 
> Ah okay, I misunderstood you earlier. Definitely not an ESTP here although that sounds nice to be. What would an INTP do best with iyo, should it matter?
> 
> (My ex's new guy is likely an ESTP, actually, now that I think about it).


Maybe.

INTP would likely do best with a compatible ESFJ (who may type as ENFJ instead) or perhaps a suitable ISFP or ENTP, that's also not really my opinion but my observations of countless people. It only matters as far as the relationship can endure. I don't talk about it anymore, but socionics is actually kind of true, it's society that can take the most compatible couples and tear them apart because of how scummy people can be when forced to agree collectively.

Ok.



ShushFox said:


> And also IDT me meeting INFJs implies me being ESTP.
> 
> Yes so that explains my familial and friend connections working out better.


Alright.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Maybe.
> 
> INTP would likely do best with a compatible ESFJ (who may type as ENFJ instead) or perhaps a suitable ISFP or ENTP, that's also not really my opinion but my observations of countless people. It only matters as far as the relationship can endure. I don't talk about it anymore, but socionics is actually kind of true, it's society that can take the most compatible couples and tear them apart because of how scummy people can be when forced to agree collectively.
> 
> ...


What is your type if I may ask? Does it help or hinder you in finding this stuff out? Do you think it might bias you?

Also, I may have come across as an ESTP to these exes - I certainly 'sound' more extroverted and aware of details and patterns with people than I really am.

I find it interesting you'd pair INTPs with their exact opposites (ESFJ, ISFP) just as well as the next-door neighbour (ENTP). Is there something generalizable to it?



> but socionics is actually kind of true, it's society that can take the most compatible couples and tear them apart because of how scummy people can be when forced to agree collectively.


Oh please do go on. I hate society and a lot of my relationship problems are incompatible views. ))


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> What is your type if I may ask? Does it help or hinder you in finding this stuff out? Do you think it might bias you?


ENTJ, although I get INTJ and ENTP as well as ESTP, ISTP, INFJ, INFP, ESFP, ESFJ, ENFP and sometimes ESTJ from people. It doesn't really help or hinder anymore, MBTI is something I can talk about with some people who are interested, but most people are not and think that it's BS or something. No, I wouldn't let something like MBTI bias me. If I ran into someone who was doing things I know from past experience I wouldn't like, then I would be very biased against them then. So to answer that question, no, but I can be biased yes and in some cases very biased for or against.

I used to do drive-alongs with some police officers to get a better understanding how "the other side" lives and I definitely understand when someone shouldn't be too open-minded and accepting. Although I will say, that being willing to believe someone has successfully de-escalated a situation that could've resulted in a shootout.



ShushFox said:


> Also, I may have come across as an ESTP to these exes - I certainly 'sound' more extroverted and aware of details and patterns with people than I really am.


Not sure what you mean there. That just comes off as you talking carp about ESTPs.



ShushFox said:


> I find it interesting you'd pair INTPs with their exact opposites (ESFJ, ISFP) just as well as the next-door neighbour (ENTP). Is there something generalizable to it?


I wouldn't pair unless someone asked me to. I'm simply saying that socionics isn't all that incorrect, it's society that makes duality seemingly impossible.



ShushFox said:


> Oh please do go on. I hate society and a lot of my relationship problems are incompatible views. ))


Wow, well I'm not a therapist. That's something you should talk to your therapist about.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> ENTJ, although I get INTJ and ENTP as well as ESTP, ISTP, INFJ, INFP, ESFP, ESFJ, ENFP and sometimes ESTJ from people. It doesn't really help or hinder anymore, MBTI is something I can talk about with some people who are interested, but most people are not and think that it's BS or something. No, I wouldn't let something like MBTI bias me. If I ran into someone who was doing things I know from past experience I wouldn't like, then I would be very biased against them then. So to answer that question, no, but I can be biased yes and in some cases very biased for or against.
> 
> I used to do drive-alongs with some police officers to get a better understanding how "the other side" lives and I definitely understand when someone shouldn't be too open-minded and accepting. Although I will say, that being willing to believe someone has successfully de-escalated a situation that could've resulted in a shootout.
> 
> ...





> That just comes off as you talking carp about ESTPs.


No, I meant I was pretending to be one without being one. Faking their good qualities.



> Wow, well I'm not a therapist. That's something you should talk to your therapist about.


I don't think I need to. Being in the minority doesn't speak to your mental health being poor, and in many cases can indicate resilience.



> most people are not and think that it's BS or something.


Was once the same for many years. People can change their minds from experiences.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> No, I meant I was pretending to be one without being one. Faking their good qualities.


You've said multiple times you're not an ESTP. Am I to believe that you're a liar then?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> You've said multiple times you're not an ESTP. Am I to believe that you're a liar then?


I've said multiple times I'm not an ESTP but I said in my last two posts that perhaps the reason I attracted INFJs was because I acted like one (my social mask is likely an ESTP - more "normal" than it is - ESxx is what I consider the most 'healthy and normal people' <at least to society's standards>).




> Wow, well I'm not a therapist. That's something you should talk to your therapist about.


I don't think I need to. Being in the minority doesn't speak to your mental health being poor, and in many cases can indicate resilience.



> most people are not and think that it's BS or something.


Was once the same for many years. People can change their minds from experiences.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> I've said multiple times I'm not an ESTP but I said in my last two posts that perhaps the reason I attracted INFJs was because I acted like one (my social mask is likely an ESTP - more "normal" than it is ESxx is what I consider the most 'healthy and normal people').


How does that even make sense. Pretending to be an ESTP doesn't mean INFJs will magically gravitate toward you. They certainly aren't going to stick around if you can't keep up the charade and stumble on some things. Especially from what I've seen with female INFJs, as I find them to be pretty finnicky.



ShushFox said:


> I don't think I need to. Being in the minority doesn't speak to your mental health being poor, and in many cases can indicate resilience.


It sounds like you need a therapist. 😄 You clearly have some hangups that you need resolved.



ShushFox said:


> Was once the same for many years. People can change their minds from experiences.


Sure. That doesn't mean everyone should get into it though. I think the typology community would be much worse if people were forced to learn about it.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> How does that even make sense. Pretending to be an ESTP doesn't mean INFJs will magically gravitate toward you. They certainly aren't going to stick around if you can't keep up the charade and stumble on some things. Especially from what I've seen with female INFJs, as I find them to be pretty finnicky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I at no point want to force people into things. And yeah the charade doesn't last on anyone for sure, but, it's the only face I can really even present to people, as my normal behaviour is being disgusted by people and making them bored or incredulous of me.

A therapist isn't changing my mind on the world because my views are at core political and very cemented now. (It crossed the line past 'personal' into 'general' a while ago).


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Well I at no point want to force people into things. And yeah the charade doesn't last on anyone for sure, but, it's the only face I can really even present to people, as my normal behaviour is being disgusted by people and making them bored or incredulous of me.


No, it doesn't. I don't really know what to say about the rest of that sentence though.



ShushFox said:


> A therapist isn't changing my mind on the world because my views are at core political and very cemented now. (It crossed the line past 'personal' into 'general' a while ago).


I see. Well, I would say it would be better to change that about yourself, but I don't know your life and why you ended up that way. I will say though, that with a mindset like that, it would be easy to indoctrinate you and all of the negatives that come with that.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> No, it doesn't. I don't really know what to say about the rest of that sentence though.
> 
> 
> 
> I see. Well, I would say it would be better to change that about yourself, but I don't know your life and why you ended up that way. I will say though, that with a mindset like that, it would be easy to indoctrinate you and all of the negatives that come with that.


Well I'm firmly rooted in my 'pearl-clutching' in that I hate small talk and anything personal in discussions - you can understand why this is a problem in relationships. That mask is the only way I can handle it. But it cracks under pressure or when questioned. And the real me is too distant, cold, and not-people-focused to sound caring about anyone. Caring about people opens me up to a lot of personal issues where I distrust people, or feel condescension to them, or alienation from them.

I don't feel particularly indoctrinated, except maybe that I take personality science with minimal skepticism and often invoke my own ideas as parts of it when it's just my gut feelings. Am I easily manipulated? Yes. I think most people with negative mindsets are manipulable and form that negativity as a shield to it rather than it being a vulnerability.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Essentially I have a range of learned/nurtured behaviours and traumas which I hide with the mask, and when a pain point comes up (the dreaded "what do you do for fun", or "what's your favourite (popular thing I don't care for)" ), I panic and have to make up lies or deflect the question. I can only pretend to enjoy romance or sexuality - the former is lame and uncomfortably personal to me, the second is scary and brings up inferiority complexes. Both triggering inadequacies in short.

You might say "why not a therapist then" but see, the issues that caused these behaviours are not issues I can solve through talk. I need a change of situation in my life - moving out of my home, probably - and then to let go of long-gone issues as well as preconceived notions of people - a lot of which I do hold onto even so because of my political leanings.

But those are pipe dreams which may never come true - and I doubt anyone will accept me unless I change a lot of who I am to be "more normal" while doing so organically.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> *Well I'm firmly rooted in my 'pearl-clutching'* in that I hate small talk and anything personal in discussions - you can understand why this is a problem in relationships. That mask is the only way I can handle it. But it cracks under pressure or when questioned. And the real me is too distant, cold, and not-people-focused to sound caring about anyone. Caring about people opens me up to a lot of personal issues where I distrust people, or feel condescension to them, or alienation from them.


That's all you really needed to say there to get your message across.



ShushFox said:


> I don't feel particularly indoctrinated, except maybe that I take personality science with minimal skepticism and often invoke my own ideas as parts of it when it's just my gut feelings. Am I easily manipulated? Yes. I think most people with negative mindsets are manipulable and form that negativity as a shield to it rather than it being a vulnerability.


I didn't say you were but that it would be easy to do so with that kind of mindset. It wasn't a judgement as more a statement of what is a pretty well studied opinion.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> That's all you really needed to say there to get your message across.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you were but that it would be easy to do so with that kind of mindset. It wasn't a judgement as more a statement of what is a pretty well studied opinion.


No but like people associate pearls with snobbishness and narcissism alone. What about like insecurity?

Well-studied, right, by whom and in what context? I don't trust that one second


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> No but like people associate pearls with snobbishness and narcissism alone. What about like insecurity?


Very much depends on who you talk to.



ShushFox said:


> Well-studied, right, by whom and in what context? I don't trust that one second


The entire field of modern psychology. A lot of crap had to be reconciled because of lessons learned during WWII about human psychology. Starting with the Milgrin Experiment, it was found that it is rather easy to indoctrinate someone if being told by someone from a position of authority. So I'd say you would be very wrong if you think I'm wrong.



https://www.livescience.com/58257-milgram-experiment-poland-obey-authority.html


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Very much depends on who you talk to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm _heavily anti-authority_. And can't reconcile the way people see me as looking down on them with that I'm both that and  scared of them. Yet morbidly curious


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

@Squirt is it okay if I ask you to elaborate on your sad reaction? I didn't mean to upset you or anyone...


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> I'm _heavily anti-authority_. And can't reconcile the way people see me as looking down on them with that I'm both that and  scared of them. Yet morbidly curious


Sure, okay.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> That's all you really needed to say there to get your message across.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say you were but that it would be easy to do so with that kind of mindset. It wasn't a judgement as more a statement of what is a pretty well studied opinion.


Can I also ask why negative = obedient to authority? Manipulability?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Sure, okay.


You uh, sound more done with this than anything. Sorry if I aggravated you.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Can I also ask why negative = obedient to authority? Manipulability?


Manipulability, yes. Someone with a rigid and unyielding mindset then becomes easy to manipulate. Some people call it "control" to make it sound less bad, but manipulation is what it really is.



ShushFox said:


> You uh, sound more done with this than anything. Sorry if I aggravated you.


As far as I'm concerned, we're just chatting in slow-motion. I'm not aggravated.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Slooowly



Scoobyscoob said:


> Manipulability, yes. Someone with a rigid and unyielding mindset then becomes easy to manipulate. Some people call it "control", but manipulation is what it really is.


But why say negativity is especially rigid? I would argue positivity is the same plus it often leads to trust which can be abused by authorities. Negativity often suppresses trust, even to people who share the same views.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

ShushFox said:


> @Squirt is it okay if I ask you to elaborate on your sad reaction? I didn't mean to upset you or anyone...


You sound very down and stuck in your situation. So it was sad to hear. I don’t have much advice or anything but wanted to let you know I sympathize, I guess. I can PM some stuff that was helpful for me when I was stuck, but I don’t know if it would be helpful for you or not.

Also, I will get back to the question about inferior Se on that other thread at some point. I haven’t missed it, lol.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Squirt said:


> You sound very down and stuck in your situation. So it was sad to hear. I don’t have much advice or anything but wanted to let you know I sympathize, I guess. I can PM some stuff that was helpful for me when I was stuck, but I don’t know if it would be helpful for you or not.
> 
> Also, I will get back to the question about inferior Se on that other thread at some point. I haven’t missed it, lol.


You're welcome to go ahead.
I don't know if I feel down or stuck. Guess I am though.

Dw about the thread, it's not a big rush.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Slooowly



* *














ShushFox said:


> But why say negativity is especially rigid? I would argue positivity is the same plus it often leads to trust which can be abused by authorities. Negativity often suppresses trust, even to people who share the same views.


Did I say negativity is especially rigid? Because I don't think I did. Using negativity to enforce rigid behavior does work, but most people would consider that to be cruel treatment to get someone to do what you want them to do. You're more likely to have your trust violated by someone you know than some authority, so that's a bit of a strange statement to me. I do things based on trust. It's the best way to accomplish seemingly impossible things. You can't do that with no trust. So I'd disagree with you there.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am so confused.
You said I'm manipulable after I said I'm negative. That's what I got.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Squirt said:


> You sound very down and stuck in your situation. So it was sad to hear. I don’t have much advice or anything but wanted to let you know I sympathize, I guess. I can PM some stuff that was helpful for me when I was stuck, but I don’t know if it would be helpful for you or not.
> 
> Also, I will get back to the question about inferior Se on that other thread at some point. I haven’t missed it, lol.


My head's a storm. You don't want to be in there, trust me.
Let's just say I wish to feel safe and that's not going to happen anytime soon.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> I am so confused.
> You said I'm manipulable after I said I'm negative. That's what I got.


I said someone with your mindset is easy to indoctrinate. Don't change up my words.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> I said someone with your mindset is easy to indoctrinate. Don't change up my words.


Isn't that the same thing?

Ok Mr, *what *is my mindset?


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Isn't that the same thing?
> 
> Ok Mr, *what *is my mindset?


No. 

You already stated what your mindset is. Why do you need me to repeat your own words back to you.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> No.
> 
> You already stated what your mindset is. Why do you need me to repeat your own words back to you.


Bc...i dont understand how you got to me being 'easy to indoctrinate' from what i said.

I need you to connect the dots for me please, bc i really dont see them...


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> Bc...i dont understand how you got to me being 'easy to indoctrinate' from what i said.
> 
> I need you to connect the dots for me please, bc i really dont see them...


Oh my God, you're hopeless.

I would if I trusted you more. I really don't based on the things you've said so far.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Oh my God, you're hopeless.
> 
> I would if I trusted you more. I really don't based on the things you've said so far.


uhhhhhh thanks


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

ShushFox said:


> uhhhhhh thanks


You shouldn't have said such chitty things.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Scoobyscoob said:


> You shouldn't have said such chitty things.


chitty? ...shitty? chatty? what?


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

Ok so I'm going to quote these in reverse order to test if you can see what I see.




ShushFox said:


> Furthermore, it takes a lot of both T and F to understand me as a person. Because my living situation is complicated. Explaining myself, my lack of control over my life (mostly), and how I can't spend that much time or energy or another person, is hard. How can someone not take it personally? Lots of things about me are embarrassing, many are well out of my hands. My family. My home. My health. My very ignorant self. These are turn offs to almost everyone. And the few things I do know or care for are alien to most people. They will not understand that I can't go out much, or invite people over (and thus it's wrong to come over), and can't call or video call on the regular. It's always "how can you not have your own room or control over things" and then it goes into all sorts of personal problems...


Have you ever met a flawless person? Because you really sound sheltered a f. Everyone is fucked up and insane from up close. They just find ways to make putting up with them worthwhile via material gifts, emotional support , humour, insights or labour. 

I grew up without a room, couldn't leave the building I grew up in out of fear of armed robbers or kidnappers and needed to be driven to/from school. My mother's car was broken into 17 times in the year before I left my country of birth. My playground was a parking lot.
I don't need to check someone's house or family or bill of health to have a conversation that doesn't make me want to enucleate my eyes with forks. That's the shit that matters and it gets rarer and rarer as you grow older so you're kinda rigging your own game.




ShushFox said:


> I feel like the thread title was misleading, I don't choose people based off MBTI. It is not the first or tenth thing I want to know about someone. But MBTI is a good indicator for how much I'll put up with a person. Introverts bore me, extroverts overwhelm me. Sensors feel alien to me, feelers have the wrong priorities and thinkers are brutes and cold. Perceivers are weak-minded and judgers are stubborn and mean. I only like intuition among all the letters.


OK so you don't choose them, you pre-stereotype them through the MBTI lens. Big difference....?
It's fine if you want to dismiss someone for their worst qualities, but doing so without giving people a chance to show their best seems a touch unfair and self sabotaging.
Guessing I overwhelm you with weak minded brutality....?
Where do You fit in this cartesian graph of suckage? Boring, weak minded, cold meanie with an acceptable percentage of screwed up priorities?
Actually I remember you mentioning your ideal date was similar to yourself, which makes me even more curious about this. 



ShushFox said:


> Under that level of distaste, the requirements between types are small because no matter what, there will be too little or too much interaction, the person will seem too close or too far, and their values too inhuman or too human, and their decisions too shaky or too solid. Nothing is good enough, and I'm hardly desirable enough to play Goldilocks..


Unless you're psychic maybe put a pin on prognostications. Especially ones that sound like they come from a place of depression. 




ShushFox said:


> SIDE NOTE
> I don't trust my intuition either even though it's right and begrudgingly go to thinking on a safety first policy.


Yeah I did that....every single time it ended in one of my top 10 mistakes. Trust it. Someone else can eat that mushroom and check the effects.


----------



## IamAlexa (Jan 28, 2021)

Necrofantasia said:


> Have you ever met a flawless person? Because you really sound sheltered a f. Everyone is fucked up and insane from up close. They just find ways to make putting up with them worthwhile via material gifts, emotional support , humour, insights or labour.
> 
> I grew up without a room, couldn't leave the building I grew up in out of fear of armed robbers or kidnappers and needed to be driven to/from school. My mother's car was broken into 17 times in the year before I left my country of birth. My playground was a parking lot.
> I don't need to check someone's house or family or bill of health to have a conversation that doesn't make me want to enucleate my eyes with forks. That's the shit that matters and it gets rarer and rarer as you grow older so you're kinda rigging your own game.


@Necrofantasia are you trying to say that his problems aren't problems?
Again Nell you are trying to say that physical problems are much worse than emotional or psychological problems.
Nobody should listen to you. You already hate people. But shushfox doesn't hate people. He wants to be with them, connected to them, even if he is not able to. So don't ever try to compare yourself with him, okay? You both are very different. He is honest and a great person, I can sense it. You are just so weak, broken and insecure human being who keeps on blaming people and then say that people are all useless shit. No, they aren't.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

IamAlexa said:


> @Necrofantasia are you trying to say that his problems aren't problems?
> Again Nell you are trying to say that physical problems are much worse than emotional or psychological problems.
> Nobody should listen to you. You already hate people. But shushfox doesn't hate people. He wants to be with them, connected to them, even if he is not able to. So don't ever try to compare yourself with him, okay? You both are very different. He is honest and a great person, I can sense it. You are just so weak, broken and insecure human being who keeps on blaming people and then say that people are all useless shit. No, they aren't.


Oh man, internet stranger can read screens and sense stuff/form opinions. I'm shaking.

I would have thought pointing out the problem in prejudging people without having ever spoken to them would make sense to you. After all anyone can recognize it's what's keeping him isolated. 

But I guess I could extend the exact same advice to you.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Necrofantasia said:


> Ok so I'm going to quote these in reverse order to test if you can see what I see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a) I am very sheltered. And for the most part I intend to be. When I do plan to go out, it's at a slow pace I can manage. If I were in your shoes as a kid, I'd be even more like what I am today. Curious what you'd be like in my shoes.

b) It's pretty simple. I can't work with people or emotions. People expect me to, I run away. There is 0 chance I will be able to keep up with them even when I do try, and I still want time for myself.
My ideal date being similar to me - insofar as having the same view that all that matters is surviving the matrix. Given I'm a black hole of a personality, it probably doesn't make sense. Nobody is going to deal with someone who takes and doesn't give lol. Neither me nor them. But it is just as well the case that a person who isn't relying on me for anything on people and emotions - is going to be easier to handle, and I don't intend to rely on them either/ Maybe we both can if we get close enough eventually. It's important we share the same values. I don't value anyone who puts people first, because I don't like most people leave alone trust them. And if they mock me for my views (think cell phones cause cancer), they're also out.

c) My pins are based on pessimism, but also an awareness of how most people are not conspiracists like me for one, and for two are more socially adjusted and with that 'thicker callus' you brought up. I don't like thick skins, it just makes me self-conscious and envious. Unless someone supports me, but I don't want that position of owing them support back. And most people buy into what they're told by other people and the nightly news - I don't want those types around me either. I think it's safe to say from this that I'll stick mostly to fellow NTs and the ISFx as a result.

d) Your example is kinda, odd? Like 'follow your intuition, don't eat the dangerous mushroom" but like I was saying I ignore my intuition as so to not take on opportunities and gambles, and play it safe? Your example has safety lining up with intuition rather than the two being at odds/loggerheads.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

IamAlexa said:


> @Necrofantasia are you trying to say that his problems aren't problems?
> Again Nell you are trying to say that physical problems are much worse than emotional or psychological problems.
> Nobody should listen to you. You already hate people. But shushfox doesn't hate people. He wants to be with them, connected to them, even if he is not able to. So don't ever try to compare yourself with him, okay? You both are very different. He is honest and a great person, I can sense it. You are just so weak, broken and insecure human being who keeps on blaming people and then say that people are all useless shit. No, they aren't.


No no, Nell knows what she's saying. I don't have the strength to hate people, I just fear and envy them, but I come from the same places of insecurity and views of people as problematic. I care about people's feelings and their opinions of each other and of me, but I'm incompetent at working with people or emotions because it's too many things to think about and I can't feel my way through it. It also doesn't interest me and so it sucks my energy to do it for too long. 

But most people do not care about the impersonal, goals, thoughts, objects, etc. Even if they do, they're probably going to eat me alive because I'm weak. So I can't really trust other thinkers either. Either you have a heart and expect a heart or you have balls and expect balls. I'm neither tough nor kind, I'm sensitive and distant. Consider it the result of whatever mental problems I might have, that anything short of scared murmurs about the future and plans, is too much for me to handle.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Necrofantasia said:


> Oh man, internet stranger can read screens and sense stuff/form opinions. I'm shaking.
> 
> I would have thought pointing out the problem in prejudging people without having ever spoken to them would make sense to you. After all anyone can recognize it's what's keeping him isolated.
> 
> But I guess I could extend the exact same advice to you.


I do speak to people and get to know them before I judge them. My first impressions are often wrong, to be fair, but actually that's because I ignore my REAL first impressions - in which I see someone superficial, or emotional, or stupid, and project my ideals onto them as being concerned thinkers. Now THAT'S narcissism.

It's incredibly lonely for me to see that most people do not give a shit about things outside their sphere of understanding of the world, and many of those people also only care about the present and very near future, not the far out.

I don't care to befriend people based around hobbies, for example. That's superficial. Nobody cares about my hobbies anyway, not even me lately. Why should one bond on that?

I went on 4chan's /soc/ yesterday after someone recommended I could find more people to talk to on there. I see an immense pattern of people expecting a psychologically stable and self-assured friend or partner. Biased because /soc/ attracts plenty of strange people, but it still speaks a lot to how most people want someone who can handle themselves AND handle others. I can barely do one OR the other. How the f- am I competing? (lmao  )
TBF, a lot of those people also share my attitudes and values, but, well, it's not helping much if they want to talk about more casual or more interpersonal things. I'm just going to feel ignorant and sheltered again from all that jazz.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

IamAlexa said:


> @Necrofantasia are you trying to say that his problems aren't problems?
> Again Nell you are trying to say that physical problems are much worse than emotional or psychological problems.
> Nobody should listen to you. You already hate people. But shushfox doesn't hate people. He wants to be with them, connected to them, even if he is not able to. So don't ever try to compare yourself with him, okay? You both are very different. He is honest and a great person, I can sense it. You are just so weak, broken and insecure human being who keeps on blaming people and then say that people are all useless shit. No, they aren't.


As well, I'm always hung up on my values/morals/integrity whatever because I'm no good at keeping up with it, always wanting to win people over first and sacrificing my beliefs as well as my comfort zone in the process. But then I get self-conscious and it turns into a tug-of-war over what has to give - do I do risky shit and waste money so I have people, or do I clump up alone and save that stuff?

A Fe person - even one who barely uses Fe at all - probably would rather give in to people than stand by values. But I realize how evil it is to blindly follow the group, it goes against my idea of safety. Those values are unnatural but necessary, and I have to forcefully clamp down on my desire to meet and talk to people because I don't want to get hurt by those who don't vibe with me, you know? It's the thinking not the feeling, that focuses on morals here, and that's flawed from the get-go.

Someone yesterday on a discord server told me that autists are just another of those 'not people just words' (mental cases) i.e. a predictable, boring, and unrespectable personality with little skill in handling people normally or the wisdom to know when to go with vs against the group. Ok, I'm an autist. I got pretty pissed at him reading open this line 'autists are easy to manipulate - just tell them they're right so they feel power, and they'll do whatever you want". Reducing people to a textbook is really tempting, but then when the shoe's on the other foot, it hurts.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

My recommendation is don't tell people you're on the spectrum, especially if they're older. It makes most folks unplug their brains from the conversation. You cease to be a person to be engaged in normal conversation and become a condition to be managed to the more ignorant sorts.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Necrofantasia said:


> My recommendation is don't tell people you're on the spectrum, especially if they're older. It makes most folks unplug their brains from the conversation. You cease to be a person to be engaged in normal conversation and become a condition to be managed to the more ignorant sorts.


I hate the world. But you're right, at least sometimes with some people. Nobody in my life knew I was autistic (except my parents and one single friend) until 2021. Not everyone takes it badly. Younger people actually mock me more while older people are more sympathetic, but it depends on who and where. This is also all online, I never tell people I'm autistic in person, it's like stabbing yourself in the eyeball. :|


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

ShushFox said:


> I hate the world. But you're right, at least sometimes with some people. Nobody in my life knew I was autistic (except my parents and one single friend) until 2021. Not everyone takes it badly. Younger people actually mock me more while older people are more sympathetic, but it depends on who and where. This is also all online, I never tell people I'm autistic in person, it's like stabbing yourself in the eyeball. :|


The issue is not whether or not they take it badly. Someone can, with the best intentions, strip you of your humanity by reducing you to a disability, and this kinda does get in the way of conversation.... it's not just autism, disclosure of any perceived disability can do this in some way. 

We're basically trapped in our respective fleshbots. Meaning is a human invention, so unfortunately any meaning you source will be in some way connected to helping alleviate each other's suffering along the course of the human condition.


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## IamAlexa (Jan 28, 2021)

@Necrofantasia I am sorry.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

IamAlexa said:


> @Necrofantasia I am sorry.


I'm used to it dw.









Lindsay - When you come home to a Badger in your HOUSE #ShowYourGlow #DenimYourWay


Lindsay - When you come home to a Badger in your HOUSE #ShowYourGlow #DenimYourWay #katespadenyonthemove




m.youtube.com


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I've found marginally more in common with INFPs before.


And that's the type you should be focusing on. That's the type you're preprogrammed to fall for, being an INTP.
Here's the in depth explanation as for why:








The perfect MBTI type romantic pairings Ver 8.1 New...


To start with please be patient with my Te trickster, I'll try my best to make it as comprehensible as I can. Chapter 0: Super-shortened, washed down version that doesn't explain things properly but might help some people. TL;DR: The single most optimal match is T/F variant pairing (e.g...




www.personalitycafe.com







ShushFox said:


> I also read ENTJ (the pure choleric) would be a better pair, because ENTJs are basically INTPs with a backbone in my eyes, and I've had a relationship with an ENTJ fail on similar-ish grounds for not sharing values again (same ones - only caring about goals not love, pragmatic, wanting to use each other as tools codependently...). That said, some other people close in my life (mostly irl) are ENTJ.


Completely wrong. Consider this as a starting point, ENTJs need devotion, clarity and honesty. Now here's a funny quote:
"What type out of all the 16 types is the most likely to have avoidant attachment style? Oh wait a minute, that's the golden pair with the ENTJ: the INTP."
Source: an ENTP who keeps trying to fit round pegs through square holes





Everything between an ENTJ and INTP is a polar opposite and for that to function you have to give up on everything you are. It's not actually developmental, I explained in in that OP, I've linked above, but let me give you a distilled version: If you force yourself out of your comfort zone, without being ready, you're risking trauma that puts you even deeper than you were before into that comfort zone.

Now the real important bit. People who proposed 'gold pairings', have been largely ignorant of shadow function interactions. They are repeatable patterns of behaviour that keep weighing certain pairings down.

Let me give you an example: my mother is an ESTJ, my father ISTP (ego-shadow pairing). My pops made a lot of promises to my mom about crafting some furniture and whatnot, and he didn't end up doing it because he kept engaging in new projects, never finishing what he started. My mom nagged him about it over and over again and he had no defense whatsoever. You'd think that he'd eventually just finish the things he promised he'd do, but no, he just kept taking more and more projects just to be able to come home later and be able to retort "what, do you think I was laying around all day?".
Now let me explain why that happened. Se critic of ESTJ hypocritically couldn't let go of failed performance of someone else, Si critic of ISTP got it's voice echoed in ESTJ's Se critic so it didn't fight back. There was no respite. The normal pressure from Si critic effectively doubled and became so heavy that escapism into physical exertion/workaholism became the only option in my pop's mind. There was too many failed obligations, adressing them was too monumental of a task.
My mother started to watch herself only after she nagged me, for 15 minutes straight, over a drop of cooking oil I spilled on a table and I lashed back at her. Her first reaction was "why are you being so mean to me?! I was only pointing it out!", it took a while. The truth was that over the course of her life shared with my father he never stood up to her nagging because it fitted perfectly around his Si critic and reinforced his default, delusional preconceived notions about himself. Si critic tells and ISTP that they don't deserve comfort, that they have to go out, work in poor conditions, exert themselves physically through Se and only then can they be allowed to rest a bit. That's not how it should be. That's only one shadow function interaction, when you compile all you see a devious trap that torments both people without them being even able to recognize that.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> And that's the type you should be focusing on. That's the type you're preprogrammed to fall for, being an INTP.
> Here's the in depth explanation as for why:
> 
> 
> ...


I think you might be too certain that this spells doom. The girl I'm talking to as of late is ISTJ from first test results. Should I just give up iyo because she's not INFP? Come on.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I think you might be too certain that this spells doom. The girl I'm talking to as of late is ISTJ from first test results. Should I just give up iyo because she's not INFP? Come on.


I'm giving you a chance to familiarize yourself with mechanisms that you haven't yet understood. If you understand the mechanisms you'll understand the conclusion as well because I'm not talking about individuals and preferences but default reactions that are hard wired into us through cognitive functions.

That being said it might be useless to even try showing you an optimal solution because you have high Ne and, because of that, you don't actually care, and it's a problem. You have to see for yourself and waste yours and other's time, hurt the other person (and, possibly, yourself), because you need to try out options, despite repeating patterns through which certain arrangements can be predicted to work sub optimally. Having high Ne you won't see the forest for the trees, you won't notice underlying pattern, you won't guess that if there is a box with a hole then and a box full of pegs then there are other holes for other pegs. You'll feel justified to check this and that, and avoidantly pull out when you realize that it's not what you wanted, but in actuality you're not justified, if you act like this, because being INTP you have Ni critic and with that function you can actually see the wrong patterns and simulate chains of consequences that won't work.

Develop your Ni critic and hold to it tightly. Introverted critic is possibly the most important function you have.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> I'm giving you a chance to familiarize yourself with mechanisms that you haven't yet understood. If you understand the mechanisms you'll understand the conclusion as well because I'm not talking about individuals and preferences but default reactions that are hard wired into us through cognitive functions.
> 
> That being said it might be useless to even try showing you an optimal solution because you have high Ne and, because of that, you don't actually care, and it's a problem. You have to see for yourself and waste yours and other's time, hurt the other person (and, possibly, yourself), because you need to try out options, despite repeating patterns through which certain arrangements can be predicted to work sub optimally. Having high Ne you won't see the forest for the trees, you won't notice underlying pattern, you won't guess that if there is a box with a hole then and a box full of pegs then there are other holes for other pegs. You'll feel justified to check this and that, and avoidantly pull out when you realize that it's not what you wanted, but in actuality you're not justified, if you act like this, because being INTP you have Ni critic and with that function you can actually see the wrong patterns and simulate chains of consequences that won't work.
> 
> Develop your Ni critic and hold to it tightly. Introverted critic is possibly the most important function you have.


How do you know I'm Ne? I don't like following patterns because they often tell me I'm doomed, at least as far as relationships go. And I'm told I'm all too critical, which is why I ignore that part of me as much as possible - it costs me people.

Also all this stuff seems rather complex to understand and very unintuitive.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> How do you know I'm Ne?


Uuh... Aren't you an INTP? INTP is Ti, Ne, Si, Fe.
Asking for opinions on INFJ+INTP vs ENTJ+INTP wouldn't make sense unless you concluded that you're an INTP.



ShushFox said:


> I don't like following patterns because they often tell me I'm doomed, at least as far as relationships go. And I'm told I'm all too critical, which is why I ignore that part of me as much as possible - it costs me people.


The critic function starts hypocritical. If it's introverted it puts too much pressure on the user _(not realizing others aren't meeting these standards)_, if it's extroverted it puts too much pressure on the environment _(not realizing the user isn't meeting these standards)_. Maturing it requires to approach it's feedback with a grain of salt but approaching it nevertheless. Without it you're at the mercy of the environment, in the area governed by the extroverted parent.



ShushFox said:


> Also all this stuff seems rather complex to understand and very unintuitive.


It is intuitive once you get the gist of the basics, I wouldn't be able to figure it out if it wasn't. Unfortuntely it is in my nature to make things sound overly complex, due to Te trickster giving me false feedback when it comes to what others know and understand (for example making me either explain things in too much of a detail or too little), I'm sorry for that but I can't do anything with it unless it's pointed out to me. That being said I use a lot of examples later on, Chapter 0 can be considered a middle finger towards people who refused to read the OP because it was too long _(so I shortened it and it probably just made it more difficult to understand)_. Don't be lazy, challenge yourself. You're the one who asked who's compatible with who, and I've given you a full answer.

How about this. Give it a chance either way and if you end up not agreeing with my final conclusion then you'll still be richer with knowledge of how cognitive functions interact with each other depending on their position. You can use that to understand the issues that you run into with some types and perhaps navigate around them with conscious effort _(and yea it is possible to make everything work like this, but it takes energy and therefore it's inadvisable to have that in a relationship that is supposed to last, because that energy will run out eventually)_.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Uuh... Aren't you an INTP? INTP is Ti, Ne, Si, Fe.
> Asking for opinions on INFJ+INTP vs ENTJ+INTP wouldn't make sense unless you concluded that you're an INTP.
> 
> 
> ...


Well this person here Still doubting my type as well | Personality Cafe 
@lww23 
says INTP is NiTiSeFe
And you say INTP is TiNeSiFe

Like wtf am I supposed to understand when these systems contradict each other

Do I use Ni or Ne?

I am not some wizard to magically know the answer, nor to be toyed around with conflicting answers.
The difference between the Keirsey and non-Keirsey groups (F choleric and T choleric) is complex enough on its own, when do I just get a damn bloody straight answer to who I am???


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Uuh... Aren't you an INTP? INTP is Ti, Ne, Si, Fe.
> Asking for opinions on INFJ+INTP vs ENTJ+INTP wouldn't make sense unless you concluded that you're an INTP.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm completely at the environment's mercy but to a large extent.
It seems awfully deterministic to state "because of x function I am y".
I don't want to expel garbage energy on unworkable relationships and people,
But I don't even Know who the Fuck I am
So



> Don't be lazy, challenge yourself. You're the one who asked who's compatible with who, and I've given you a full answer.


You've given me a swirl of cloud


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

MBTI isn't going to land you a pain free relationship because every relationship has trade-offs


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> No.
> 
> Not and don't really care


Well then, listening to you so far I can tell you that you're not an INTP.
Btw have you noticed that you're placing your entire posts in a single quote bracket?



ShushFox said:


> Yes. I usually like things only when informed of them, the only things I discover on my own are very niche and that's at random mostly. Doesn't mean I can't find things myself but barely want to, preferring to repeat same or similar experiences. Also doesn't mean I like everything I'm shown. I hate being pushed or manipulated subtly into trying things as well.


Okay. Answer the other questions and I'll see if I get full confirmation.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

Necrofantasia said:


> Ohh so you don't think I'm INTP ? :3


I have no idea. That 'meh' though was fairly apathetic and INTPs tend to be however vibe is not enough to say for sure.


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## Necrofantasia (Feb 26, 2014)

ciel sos infel said:


> I have no idea. That 'meh' though was fairly apathetic and INTPs tend to be however vibe is not enough to say for sure.


I can get along with anyone as long as I am free to leave the room :3


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Well then, listening to you so far I can tell you that you're not an INTP.
> Btw have you noticed that you're placing your entire posts in a single quote bracket?
> 
> 
> Okay. Answer the other questions and I'll see if I get full confirmation.


Yes I did that because separating them gets annoying but if it bugs you enough to point it out I'll go back to actually copypasting quotes.

What other questions did you ask? That's the only one in that reply.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Your annoyance is mild. This at least tells us that you don't have high Se. People with high Se get annoyed very quickly and they show their anger explosively.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think I'm INTJ because tests say so a lot and the voice app too
IDK for sure
I feel like I'm scrambled a bit of everything although less E and S


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> How would you define fakeness? There are many types of fakeness that can be traced to cognitive functions.
> 
> 
> What traits distinguish you from others?
> ...


A) fakeness as in not being honest and open about who you are immediately, having social masks, pretending to be someone for acceptance or attention

B) What traits distinguish me from others? Not many imo, but to them I'm weird in that I'm stubborn, opinionated, and judgy, yet also fickle and hate commitments. I'm very moody. I like cringe and niche things. I hate what's popular just for being popular because nobody tells me what to do, but yet I follow along easily if I feel included and accommodated for. I care about the right way of doing things and prefer keeping habits and traditions for simplicity and consistency, but I also will break these as needed to fulfill my own paths. I am not very driven, but when I am I am silently so, because my parents hate me rebelling. If I lived alone, I would make up things to do all the time. I have a strong need for people but I hate them, I won't seek them out on my own unless I have something specific. I'll just do my own thing, get occupied, and then at random will feel lonely after otherwise not caring at all. I don't like or approve most people or common hobbies.

C) Suppose I'm Fe, so what? I don't use it well. I do have values that I'm rigid on but not enough to be Fi maybe.

D) I don't mean it like that, more like you are very textbook about it.

E) I cannot handle people very much at all and am both extremely naive and very offensive. I feel guilty about but as a kid I was less guilty and less aware of it. I make a concerted effort to be socially normal and non-offensive. I'm autistic and I assumed until now that it explained this, but maybe not.

*I also make a conscious effort to be less naive, to the point I am overly mistrusting, doubtful, and suspicious!!


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Yes I did that because separating them gets annoying but if it bugs you enough to point it out I'll go back to actually copypasting quotes.


Unconventional, slightly lazy (optimising), but kind.
It's easier to quote and read your posts when you don't put the entire thing into a single quote. Thank you.


ShushFox said:


> What other questions did you ask? That's the only one in that reply.











Compatibility between INFJ and INTP vs ENTJ and INTP


It seems awfully deterministic to state "because of x function I am y". I didn't claim you're an INTP because of one function but because the way you titled your thread, without anything in the OP that would contradict it, was basically you claiming you're an INTP. I don't want to expel...




www.personalitycafe.com


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> How would you define fakeness? There are many types of fakeness that can be traced to cognitive functions.
> 
> 
> What traits distinguish you from others?
> ...


I just wanted to know why my crush didn't like me... ;_; women never give you the keys to their heart freely because they know you'll fake it.

She kept saying she's choleric her crush is melancholic but thought I was extroverted just off online experience...which was me being around her + being excitable as I wasn't on the internet much before 2020 so I had a lot to share.

So I guessed at my temperament after I gave up on trying to win her over. And from there I assumed supine from reading and a cursory few tests as melancholic and phlegmatic and choleric none of them fit me entirely

But I am not 100% supine I think. Maybe but I don't quite think so. It's possible

hence supine choleric and from there I just assumed INTP and 5w6/5w4/ +- sp/sx


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Unconventional, slightly lazy (optimising), but kind.
> It's easier to quote and read your posts when you don't put the entire thing into a single quote. Thank you.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok I answered, just readup ^^


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> A) fakeness as in not being honest and open about who you are immediately, having social masks, pretending to be someone for acceptance or attention


I also have an edgy side that I repress because I'm fake too and hate it.
I don't know who the real me is anymore
I'm too used to putting on various masks
As a kid I was curious but more for recognition than curiosity itself, I wanted to experiment and go beyond but only with the abstract stuff like grammar and arithmetic.
Over time I became more social and cared less and less about learning, now I just do it because I need a job and have maybe 10% of my old passion left.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I also have an edgy side that I repress because I'm fake too and hate it.
> I don't know who the real me is anymore
> I'm too used to putting on various masks
> As a kid I was curious but more for recognition than curiosity itself, I wanted to experiment and go beyond but only with the abstract stuff like grammar and arithmetic.
> Over time I became more social and cared less and less about learning, now I just do it because I need a job and have maybe 10% of my old passion left.


That said, I'm more social as an idea than in practice. People scare or bother me, and I still spend a lot of time alone on my own interests, often imagining that others would care about them too. That's been me since 2010-2020, and then 2020-2021 I was online sharing stuff. But eventually I got divided from people because politics and low patience on my end for peoples' behaviour.

My masks include sociable, polite, hard-hitting, funny, suave, whatever fits. The real me is no longer curious or responsible even but more emotional, introspective. I don't trust my intuition but it has grown stronger over the years.

People used to ask me on MBTI and I said no idc. But I did a few tests in the past and got ISFJ, ISTJ, ISTP, ... I didn't start getting N until quite recently and I wonder if it's really me and I changed or I just became like that from politics. My head is in the clouds always but I like practical things for my own safety, albeit more I like to focus on practicals as an idea because I'm useless.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

One other thing, I hate keeping secrets and sometimes have to. I want to share most things unless it earns me huge ridicule or contempt.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> A) fakeness as in not being honest and open about who you are immediately, having social masks, pretending to be someone for acceptance or attention


Difficult to pinpoint from that answer. Oh well.



ShushFox said:


> B) What traits distinguish me from others? Not many imo, but to them I'm weird in that I'm stubborn, opinionated, and judgy, yet also fickle and hate commitments.


How are you fickle and what commitments do you hate and why?



ShushFox said:


> I'm very moody. I like cringe and niche things. I hate what's popular just for being popular because nobody tells me what to do, but yet I follow along easily if I feel included and accommodated for. I care about the right way of doing things and prefer keeping habits and traditions for simplicity and consistency, but I also will break these as needed to fulfill my own paths. I am not very driven, but when I am I am silently so, because my parents hate me rebelling. If I lived alone, I would make up things to do all the time. I have a strong need for people but I hate them, I won't seek them out on my own unless I have something specific. I'll just do my own thing, get occupied, and then at random will feel lonely after otherwise not caring at all. I don't like or approve most people or common hobbies.


Mhm.



ShushFox said:


> C) Suppose I'm Fe, so what? I don't use it well. I do have values that I'm rigid on but not enough to be Fi maybe.


You're very unlikely to be an INTJ, that's what. I'm trying to pinpoint your type but there are still some things that don't fit in neatly, these probably have to do with you not understanding the intention of my question as I wanted it to be understood and that's also why questionnaires and tests aren't foolproof.



ShushFox said:


> E) I cannot handle people very much at all and am both extremely naive and very offensive. I feel guilty about but as a kid I was less guilty and less aware of it. I make a concerted effort to be socially normal and non-offensive. I'm autistic and I assumed until now that it explained this, but maybe not.


You haven't said that you're autistic to me before. Aside from that that's not exactly the response I was expecting. Confirmation question below.



ShushFox said:


> *I also make a conscious effort to be less naive, to the point I am overly mistrusting, doubtful, and suspicious!!


Likely Ne nemesis.
Naive intellectually or naive emotionally? Believing in authority or crediblity of sources that aren't credible or trusting a person that isn't trustworthy and will betray that trust?

Hmm. You're above 20 yo? It's a kind of arbitrary barrier but I just want to know if you're past the 'rebellious phase' or if some of it might still linger. I need this for the next question which confirms whether you have Se or not and if you're young you might not experience the concerns coming from low Se yet.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

??


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> ??


It posted itself prematurely for some reason. I've edited it, now it should be okay.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Difficult to pinpoint from that answer. Oh well.
> 
> 
> How are you fickle and what commitments do you hate and why?
> ...





> How are you fickle and what commitments do you hate and why?


I often leave and rejoin groups and clubs. I am emotionally moody and thoughtfully indecisive. I don't like committing to anything except school and work. Chores are a slog, friendships and relationships suck because effort, generally hobbies, people, and routines, are a pain, unless I really get used to them and then I still fall back to nothing at the first chance out of that control sphere.



> Naive intellectually or naive emotionally? Believing in authority or crediblity of sources that aren't credible or trusting a person that isn't trustworthy and will betray that trust?



Naive emotionally and in people. Don't trust authority or sources and never did, always questioned it, quietly if possible though as I hate conflict. I'd say I'm okay intellectually, maybe not great but not gullible as often as emotionally.



> Hmm. You're above 20 yo? It's a kind of arbitrary barrier but I just want to know if you're past the 'rebellious phase' or if some of it might still linger. I need this for the next question which confirms whether you have Se or not and if you're young you might not experience the concerns coming from low Se yet.


I never had a rebellious phase consciously. I'm claimed to be in one now by my parents for wanting more independence but I don't feel like it. I'm too obedient for my own good but my patience has limits and my nerves have been frayed due to covid politics.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I just wanted to know why my crush didn't like me... ;_; women never give you the keys to their heart freely because they know you'll fake it.


Probably a Ti 'why'.
Btw if you're looking at women as if they're disadvantaged and oppressed - they're not. Maybe in some third world country somewhere. In civilized areas a lot of them are spoiled, entitled, narcissistic and spiteful. Some of them don't have heart to open to you, so to speak. You wouldn't believe how many are shallow, disoyal, devious and deceitful just because they can get away with it and don't care at all about any higher values. Beware.



ShushFox said:


> She kept saying she's choleric her crush is melancholic but thought I was extroverted just off online experience...which was me being around her + being excitable as I wasn't on the internet much before 2020 so I had a lot to share.
> 
> So I guessed at my temperament after I gave up on trying to win her over. And from there I assumed supine from reading and a cursory few tests as melancholic and phlegmatic and choleric none of them fit me entirely
> 
> ...


Yea, I can see you went about it with some logic in mind but your assumptions about how things work were wrong and you ended with a wrong conclusion. Again, unlikely to be an INTJ but I have few more questions before I'll be certain.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I also have an edgy side that I repress because I'm fake too and hate it.
> I don't know who the real me is anymore
> I'm too used to putting on various masks


Okay. Just few more things left to clarify and that's just to be sure.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> That said, I'm more social as an idea than in practice. People scare or bother me, and I still spend a lot of time alone on my own interests, often imagining that others would care about them too. That's been me since 2010-2020, and then 2020-2021 I was online sharing stuff. But eventually I got divided from people because politics and low patience on my end for peoples' behaviour.
> 
> My masks include sociable, polite, hard-hitting, funny, suave, whatever fits. The real me is no longer curious or responsible even but more emotional, introspective. I don't trust my intuition but it has grown stronger over the years.


Strangely enough I didn't trust my intuition much, I guess I still don't but I do keep it in mind.



ShushFox said:


> People used to ask me on MBTI and I said no idc. But I did a few tests in the past and got ISFJ, ISTJ, ISTP, ... I didn't start getting N until quite recently and I wonder if it's really me and I changed or I just became like that from politics. My head is in the clouds always but I like practical things for my own safety, albeit more I like to focus on practicals as an idea *because I'm useless.*


Ni hero can be easily mistaken for Si hero, surprisingly enough.
Do you have a good memory? Can you replay sensations in your mind or can you only remember that something was 'pleasant' or that it was 'tasty' but can't fell the sensation?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> One other thing, I hate keeping secrets and sometimes have to. I want to share most things unless it earns me huge ridicule or contempt.


I've heard of an INFJ-INFJ pair and they were talking about 'addictive honesty'. It was very appealing to me as well.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> You've shown low Ti clearly in your answers. I don't always do what I want even though I have Ni in the top spot, it's not feasible. It's not how it works.


How, and how?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> But I am very well aware of what I want because I'm simulating every choice and consequence there is to be made before I make them, and that's what Ni does. You can't have that and ability to simulate sensations


I mean I try to simulate choices but I'm bad at it and IDk what I want. I'm also not some prodigy of remembering senses, it just comes to me. Carpets in my mind's eye sort of thing. Visualizing cubes, smelling absent things, tasting popsicle stick wood when I don't want to/


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> He's wrong about that, he's not as scrupulous since he has high Ne. Ti governs perception of self worth, self respect, how skilled a person is. Fi governs perception of deserving self-love, how morally justified a person is to act for their own benefit. It's easy to confuse them but they are separate. Both ISFJ and INFJ will by default feel equally useless due to Ti child underestimating it's own talents so they will tend to let others walk over them _(but you can learn to stand for yourself, you just need to have a solid foundation in a form of skill or understanding)_. They will also feel undeserving of love and nice things but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it except being allowed to have nice things by an Fi user's evaluation of moral consistency and telling you the good things that you're doing.


Yaeh all that makes sense though I think about Fi more but also struggle with it more, while Ti less but it comes easier


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> I'll leave you with an advice that should help a fellow Ti child user. When you see _STPs or _NTPs being full of themselves don't buy into that. They are very often detached from reality when it comes to their perception of self worth. My ISTP father loudly criticized me whenever I overheated a furnace, as if it was the easiest thing to do properly. One day he was the one who was fuelling it and I felt a lot of heat coming from it so I checked the temperature and, sure enough, it gave an error reading, so it went past the dangerous level. When I confronted my father about it he didn't apologize or admit his fault so I drilled him about it without mercy. Eventually he was saying shit like 'the fire was wrong'. Hahaha, can you believe that? It was the fire's fault, not his! What a delusional piece of shit. Assume all high Ti users and high Fi users are delusional until they prove you wrong, and don't feel threatened by them or their confidence. They haven't earned the high self esteem they present to the world, like you or I would have to earn to be so haughty. They're cheating the system.


Don't despair over feeling weak. _Strength is made in weakness,_ and when you gain true strength you'll break false, delusional, unearned strength like a twig.



This makes sense. My parents are EXACTLY like your father, hypocritical about mistakes and ability, constantly pointing out the splinter in my eye while ignoring the thorn in their own, or shrugging if I point it out. Makes compromise impossible and forces me to give in to them unless I want to be beat or yelled at instead.

I didn't think Ti and Fi would lead to egotims, I admire the idea of depth and introspection generating creative ideas. That it also creates moral self-righteousness and ego shocks me, as I despise egotism. I don't apply rules with any ego but because it's best for others and the group. I can turn that part of me off sometimes to ignore grammar and faux-pas that irritate me. I'm not interested in my own well-affair but I'm told I'm selfish when I cut people off who are teasing me, or being in my face, when I need to preserve myself.


Are you supposed to work hard, is the system MEANT to be like that? It sounds a bit ant-like, lacking much individual thought or individuality. That scares me even though I relate to feeling cheated.

I agree on the strength made in weakness part, I'm just still weak.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I don't list function stacks in order. I list them however I think or remember of them.


Well the order is what decides the type together with functions themselves so it should be spelled out properly.



ShushFox said:


> ISFJ sounds like a type with a great deal of sensitivity to people, to order, and to practicality.
> If you're saying I'm ISFJ then that's to imply I've been acting completely unlike the trait description much of the time.





ShushFox said:


> "No-nonsense attitude" is a good descriptor for me as well, to start.





ShushFox said:


> My head is in the clouds always but I like practical things for my own safety





ShushFox said:


> But yet I am also told I read minds sometimes, I'm manipulative or indirect, intentionally or not, and I can sense how someone is feeling and who they are at the core with only mild conscious effort. I would never call myself a genuine empath because I can't express empathy well, but I do care about people - provided they do not attack me in any way on purpose. I don't sacrifice myself for people - well I do, not that much but more than I want and in ways that don't count sometimes - but there are things I limit at.





ShushFox said:


> I don't like lack of tidiness in other people and will judge despite my parents judging me for the same.


You're acting plenty like ISFJ. Fe doesn't have to be nurtruting when it's unhealthy, it can just be manipulative. If you consider yourself being abused and disrespected you won't give someone access to your Fe caregiving.



ShushFox said:


> Yes, I enforce social norms, but my norms aren't in line with most of society anymore.


Mine aren't either. Introverted critic will still inform you when something is inconsistent and that will allow you to separate yourself from the rest of people.



ShushFox said:


> Yes, I like people, but I'm introverted and very judgy.


Again. Very in line with the type.



ShushFox said:


> I don't take care of things as much as I would like and it tires me out and I get lazy.


Si-Ti and Ti-Si can be very lazy. It's high Te that seeks to exert itself in terms of productivity, just like high Se people exert themselves physically. High Fe gets motivation to exert itself when other people need Fe user to help them.



ShushFox said:


> What I'm inferring here - and correct me if I wrong, because I overinterpret and guess - is that my parents have made me _feel_ abused even if they weren't being abusive, to the point I don't act like myself or know who I am, and even have split priorities in what I want, like, need, and wish to be or have, as if I have a split personality like Two Face.


I have no idea what's going on in your life. That's why I've said that you've been abused or you've felt abused. I cannot figure that out just by reading your account of the situation, especially when you're contradicting yourself so often. You might consider talking to a therapist to sort these things out.



ShushFox said:


> Your conclusion that I'm ISFJ is based off the notion that I can't be anything else deductively


You're not in a healthy place right now and that is very confusing to type. There are people who's types I can properly infer just after a single conversation that doesn't even involve me asking specific questions. It wasn't so easy with you. Trusting completely in what you're saying gets me nowhere because you've contradicted yourself on numerous occasions. There are reasons why these contradictions exist but I'm not sitting inside your head and I can't verify them. You can't figure those either because as of now you're trying to type people not by cognitive functions but by some outlandish system of temperaments which I'd assume has very little to do with the types themselves. Are there 16 temperaments?



ShushFox said:


> , seemingly off of either strict textbook definitions - which I'm not apt to trust with so many systems and the strictness - or off of me fitting the types you assumed I am and their traits - like me being low-confidence in myself as opposed to high Fi/Ti people.


You are free to disregard everything I've said and go on your way. I'm as convinced about your typing as I can be. Certain attitudes towards certain things correspond to certain cognitive functions. You don't know much at all when it comes to how cognitive functions in certain positions manifest in behaviour and judgement so I don't know how you are equipped to even guess whether you should trust or distrust me. I offered you a chance to learn these things via that CSJ's youtube channel. Most of what he's talking about when it comes to cognitive functions themselves clicked for me. I've made predictions and the predictions were mostly true. Gain that knowledge and test it for yourself.



ShushFox said:


> Are my parents ISFJ? Some of that video's descriptors remind me of them, perhaps more so my mom. Why would ISFJs hurt other ISFJs? No in-group bias? Or on the converse is there a dispreference? Just nothing?


No idea how you're expecting me to guess that. I won't try to type your parents based solely on your accounts.
That being said hurting someone similar to you is fairly easy. We see our own flaws in others and we attack them without realizing we should be attacking ourselves. But again, I have no idea what type your parents are. Being mean to people can't always be neatly explained through typology. Virtue is not predictable by type. Any type can be good or evil _(though some gravitate towards certain malevolent tendencies more easily)_.



ShushFox said:


> tl;dr you seem to be going more off of what I am not than what I am. Are you sure in all this theory stuff being right and decisively so?





ShushFox said:


> Overall it just seems so sure and so strict. How do you know that what you ascribe to me is because of a certain function and not another? That you call it an ISFJ thing because you think I'm ISFJ and not because it is ISFJ? Confirmation bias? What if it matches idk what else?


Grasp the cognitive functions and you'll be able to verify my verdict for yourself. Additionally you can try listening to this guys video on INTPs and INFPs and believe whatever you want to believe.

You've displayed Fe and Fi critic. You've also displayed Ti child and Te trickster. I've made it clear to you which sentences display which. That leaves us with two types to choose from - INFJ and ISFJ. For a bit I thought you might be INFJ but you're so bloody indecisive it'd be impossible. Additionally you've said you can easily simulate sensations, you care about comfort, don't mind chores etc. One statement you've made before made it seem like you have no Si at all but then you'd have to be an INFJ and you can't be because you can simulate sensory input and you have a good memory. The only position for Si to be in is Hero or Parent but you keep saying you're not very social so it's more likely for it to be Hero. The way you speak about distrust also would point me towards Ne inferior because Ne inferior acts a lot like Ne nemesis and that's why ISFJ can be easily mistaken for INFJ unless you know what to look for. The tests you've taken pinpointed you several times as Si hero. I've been getting INFJ and INTJ in tests but I don't have Te for shit, it's very clear to me, and there are multitudes of other reasons but that's irrelevant now.
You're an ISFJ, you're just in that 'rogue' mode, that CSJ spoke about, right now.



ShushFox said:


> Contextually the clues I gave about most of my hobbies being indoorsy and alone, my parents being strict, etc...


Okay, someone could assume that about you from what you've said now I think about it. I think I misunderstood the word 'homebody' for some reason. You've displayed Te trickster though when you've said that:


ShushFox said:


> I did draw, write, and make music that whole time - albeit very very bad stuff.


And then when I asked you "bad in what sense" you've answered:


ShushFox said:


> Lack of privacy, saying too much, dangerous people, time-wasting, data-collecting, idk


That should make this clear.



ShushFox said:


> Also I spoke with my mom about this a bit and she said I'm a very soft, sensitive, pushovery person


There are several types that can be like that but ISFJ is one of the most likely to be seen that way.



ShushFox said:


> And again so, the other guy with the "introverts have two Xis" is wrong? Why? Why are you right?


It is possible that he is correct *in the sense* that he applies different definitions to different positions. When looking at it from the perspective of the system I'm using _(modified dr Beebe's)_ it's wrong because the functions aren't in their correct positions. His system and my system are incompatible.
So here's a correction. I don't know if he is wrong because I don't know what definitions does he ascribe to the positions he lined the functions in.

Nevertheless that alignment makes no sense because the order of development and the usage preferences (default energy expenditure priority) dictate the order Ti Ne Si Fe for INTP.
Now this is something that will sound entirely alien, but it's also easier to perceive cognitive functions as a schematic for torroidal magnetic field when they are outlined in the way I'm using but the importance of that will probably remain obfuscated for many years to come.



ShushFox said:


> If behaviour is not action but cognitive function, then why are MBTis described by behaviour and not solely by functions?


I'm not a devotee of MBTI. The arrangement of 16 types is valid and I use that but I focus on the cognitive functions more because using stereotypes can be misleading and that behaviours in MBTI, you're talking about, are stereotypes. You won't always act exactly as your stereotype.
If you look at this flow chart:
cognitive function signal _(type's perceived reality)_ -> conscious decision or automated reaction _(free will informed and limited by perception of reality)_ -> actions _(effect on reality)_ -> behaviour _(perceived reality of the type's interaction with environment)_ -> stereotype _(MBTI typology)_
Notice that pretty much every step along the way can throw the evaluation off. If you want to type someone, limiting the possibility of error and misunderstanding, you need to try to look at the cognitive functions directly. There are some clear markers of this or that function and when the typed person isn't clear or contradicts themselves you eliminate things that can't be true.



ShushFox said:


> Do you still think I'm high Ne btw


Does an ISFJ have high Ne? No. Only in certain situations. This state doesn't have that much effect on the ego decision making unless ISFJ is going through midlife crisis and acting like an ENTP, just like rebelious phase when ISFJ can act a lot like ESFP.



ShushFox said:


> How, and how?


Didn't I mention it every time I've noticed it? Also the fact you're asking these questions suggest a needy Ti child just wanting to understand. Te child can be curious too but it won't need to understand like you do.



ShushFox said:


> and how?


Cognitive function gives you a signal, it is an awareness. It doesn't change reality as far as I'm aware of. Just because I want something doesn't mean that universe will restructure itself to give it to me. Makes sense?



ShushFox said:


> I mean I try to simulate choices but I'm bad at it and IDk what I want. I'm also not some prodigy of remembering senses, it just comes to me. Carpets in my mind's eye sort of thing. Visualizing cubes, smelling absent things, tasting popsicle stick wood when I don't want to/


Can you see how that makes me say that you have Si rather than Ni in the ego?



ShushFox said:


> This makes sense. My parents are EXACTLY like your father, hypocritical about mistakes and ability, constantly pointing out the splinter in my eye while ignoring the thorn in their own, or shrugging if I point it out. Makes compromise impossible and forces me to give in to them unless I want to be beat or yelled at instead.


I understand how that would make you frustrated. And you've tanked it for very long with your Si _(mental resistance to abuse and undesirable circumstances is in Si) _but everyone has their limits. That's one of the reasons why I advise Si hero to stick to Si hero and not to Se hero like sometimes advised. Se hero will abuse Si hero and Si hero will take it until they break and by that point it's too late. Every equal position equal polarity relationship (INFJ-ENFP, INTP-ENTJ etc.) is abusive in this way.




ShushFox said:


> I didn't think Ti and Fi would lead to egotims, I admire the idea of depth and introspection generating creative ideas. That it also creates moral self-righteousness and ego shocks me, as I despise egotism. I don't apply rules with any ego but because it's best for others and the group. I can turn that part of me off sometimes to ignore grammar and faux-pas that irritate me. I'm not interested in my own well-affair but I'm told I'm selfish when I cut people off who are teasing me, or being in my face, when I need to preserve myself.


They do just in different ways. High Ti/Fi will be more likely to be egotistic by default because their feedback of environment is paranoid or critical and low Ti/Fi becomes egotistical as a reaction to abuse or lack of feedback. I've explained how it happens in INTJs here if you want an example:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/zja0hf



ShushFox said:


> Are you supposed to work hard, is the system MEANT to be like that? It sounds a bit ant-like, lacking much individual thought or individuality. That scares me even though I relate to feeling cheated.


This has nothing to do with ants. I don't know why you got that idea.
The system is how it is right now, I can't say how it was meant to be. And it's not about hard work per se.

What I meant is that so long as you gain a skill, and polish it to a level that you can be at least semi confident in it, your shaky confidence will be worth more than the confidence of someone who didn't have to go through this process to gain it and is very likely delusional. I'm only telling you this so you don't submit yourself to the fear, that you probably feel when high Ti user disagrees with you, even if they don't give you anything to support what they're saying. Unfortunately the default situation is that people with lower introverted functions submit themselves to higher introverted functions without contesting them and that's like abuse of authority. Funnily enough high introverted funtions users might not even realize that they're abusing it because by default they assume that everyone is like them, some however do understand it very well and consciously reap the benefits and for that they will be punished.



ShushFox said:


> I agree on the strength made in weakness part, I'm just still weak.


Patience. Those who consider themselves skilled stop improving. You'll never consider yourself truly skilled so just use it as a motivation to improve and you'll speed past them.


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

In my signature there is a link called Type Yourself. Follow the forums there and see if it doesn't lead you to a more definite conclusion.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Fair enough, sorry for being critical, you make good points. I'm in some egotistic state of disbelief over the notion of being IF, SF and SJ when I've often been assumed a thinker and likely NT.


> I did draw, write, and make music that whole time - albeit very very bad stuff.





> And then when I asked you "bad in what sense" you've answered:





> ShushFox said:
> Lack of privacy, saying too much, dangerous people, time-wasting, data-collecting, idk



These aren't the same questions. I replied "bad" in response to "why did my parents discourage me to use the internet"
The questions got very mixed up in here tbf.
Why my art is bad is that I do not follow guidelines but just do whatever I feel like and often rush out the idea before I forget it, leaving it rough, as is because I have too many ideas coming in all the time and my head does not stop.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> Now this is something that will sound entirely alien, but it's also easier to perceive cognitive functions as a schematic for torroidal magnetic field when they are outlined in the way I'm using but the importance of that will probably remain obfuscated for many years to come.


I understand that intuitively but I don't see why one need list things in magnitude of strength over magnitude of spatial dimensions or vice versa


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> Does an ISFJ have high Ne? No. Only in certain situations. This state doesn't have that much effect on the ego decision making unless ISFJ is going through midlife crisis and acting like an ENTP, just like rebelious phase when ISFJ can act a lot like ESFP.


You said I was before though, so how do you re-evauate that in light of new info? Ditto for saying I have no Si.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> Can you see how that makes me say that you have Si rather than Ni in the ego?



Yes but idk if it's true or not or if I'm just agreeing with you because I'm suggestible and agreeable in the eyes of perceived authority and of knowledge.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> This has nothing to do with ants. I don't know why you got that idea.
> The system is how it is right now, I can't say how it was meant to be. And it's not about hard work per se.


I just get that feeling from the notion that everyone is by default low worth or low confidence until they work to prove otherwise, it feels crabs in a bucket and communistic.



> Patience. Those who consider themselves skilled stop improving. You'll never consider yourself truly skilled so just use it as a motivation to improve and you'll speed past them.


That's true. I never feel confident in anything. Especially skill wise.
I do remember I used to feel confident in school as a kid but that faded as I changed schools and it got progressively harder to keep good grades (at least to my friends' levels and my family's standards).




lilacleia16 said:


> In my signature there is a link called Type Yourself. Follow the forums there and see if it doesn't lead you to a more definite conclusion.


Where is your signature? Nothing pops up here, is it in your profile?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> In my signature there is a link called Type Yourself. Follow the forums there and see if it doesn't lead you to a more definite conclusion.


Found it.



*Cognitive Process**Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)*extraverted Sensing (Se) ****** (20.5)
limited useintroverted Sensing (Si) **** (34.7)
good useextraverted Intuiting (Ne) ****** (32.7)
good useintroverted Intuiting (Ni) *** (17.4)
limited useextraverted Thinking (Te) **** (34.6)
good useintroverted Thinking (Ti) ***** (35.5)
good useextraverted Feeling (Fe) ***** (27.5)
average useintroverted Feeling (Fi) ****** (36.7)
excellent use


*Summary Analysis of Profile*
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: *INFP*



> *Lead (Dominant) Process
> Introverted Feeling (Fi):* Staying true to who you really are. Paying close attention to your personal identity, values and beliefs. Checking with your conscience. Choosing behavior congruent with what is important to you.
> 
> *Support (Auxilliary) Process
> Extraverted Intuiting (Ne):* Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation’s dynamics.


If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: *ENFP*, or *ISTJ*



@ciel sos infel ehh>?


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

I'm Leia | My Spotify | My Testimony | My Birth Chart | My Color: Lilac. | Love Languages: Quality Time, Gifts, Words, Affection, Acts of Service. | TYPE YOURSELF! | MBTI: ISFP | Subtype: ENTP | Best Match: ENFJ (Subtype INFJ). | RIASEC: AIS | TUTTLE TYPE: T4/S1 | Ethereal: Luminous | Kibbe Type: Romantic Woman | Ideal Man's Kibbe Type: Soft Natural Man | Elements: Air & Water- The Hurricane. | Anima: Sophia | sx, sp, so | 9w8 4w5 6w7-"The Referee," "The Free Spirit," "The Confidant" | Religion: Independent Fundamental Baptist so Conservative | Spotify Wrapped: Indie & Pop, soft & yearning music | Dosha: Kapha | Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences: I’m Art, Music, People, & Self smart.
I like personality and compatibility tests | Other tests...
My creations: Leia's Personology System, The Color Theory Game, The Seasons Game, Leia's Color Theory for Men's Wardrobes,
Leia's Color Theory for Women's Wardrobes, The Myers Briggs Subtype Theory. MBTI Couple's Identity Theory


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

That was step 1. There are three more steps on the Type Yourself Forum.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

yes or no? Say no to at least 4.

1. Do you focus on your own personal happiness and have strong ethical beliefs? =Fi
Yes (ok so more so no)

2. Do you like daydreaming and brainstorming all the possibilities? =Ne
Yes

3. Do you like categorizing, alphabetizing, learning for the sake of learning, and creating systems? =Ti
Yes

4. Do you focus on past memories, love routine, and love history? =Si
Yes (but it has been a while since I have focused on history)

5. Do you like hosting and caretaking for others? =Fe
Yes

6. Do you like scoreboarding and scheduling? =Te
Yes (ok so more so no)

7. Do you like thrillseeking, and living in the moment with your 5 senses? =Se
No, except rarely when I'm in the mood

8. Do you have dreams and visions that give you answers and insight to your life, and aha moments when you realize something? =Ni
Sort of.

9.
Order your top 4 that you said yes to in order 1-4.

a. Si
b. Ne
c. Ti
d. Fe

10.
Order your bottom 4 that you said no to in order 1-4.

e. Fi
f. Te
g. Ni
h. Se

Finally, look at the picture below and determine what your type is based on cognitive functions alone.

Maybe it's better to rank these as I believe I am strong in most of them or at least interested

Lowest to highest:
Se <= Ni <= Te <= Fi <= Fe <= Ti <= Ne <= Si

I have to admit I'm rather lazy and only do any of these for fun if possible.
I tend to think of these functions in terms of what I find easiest or want to do most.

Let me guess, this isn't a valid combo is it.
Fe and Ne ought to swap places. (for ISFJ)
Maybe they woould if I was in a healthier environment.
I can only readily conclude that I prefer Fe to Fi because I care about making other people happy i.e. keeping myself safe from them and in my sphere of control - than in doing what I want regardless of them. I'm pretty sure that's a fear.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> That was step 1. There are three more steps on the Type Yourself Forum.


Yeah it takes time


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> That was step 1. There are three more steps on the Type Yourself Forum.


Mathematically there are 8P8 possibilities in cogfi >>> 16 = 4P4 options.
actually no 4P4 = 24 which is more than 16.
How do you reconcile this?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Here's some pics of me. What does it tell you? @lilacleia16

(trimmed, I want my privacy when discussing controversial or sensitive things)


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Introverted= (forehead and lips mostly)
Extroverted= (forehead and lips mostly)
Intuition= (nose and eyes mostly)
Sensing= (nose and ears and eyes mostly)
Feeler= (lips and eyes mostly)
Thinker= (cheekbones and lips mostly)
Perceivers= (nose and eyes mostly)
Judgers= (nose and eyes mostly)

TEST:

A. Forehead
1.
a. 1-3 fingers forehead =Introvert, thinker
b. 4-6 fingers forehead=extrovert, feeler

B

2.
a. Projects out = Introvert, thinker
b. straight up and down=introvert
c. sunk in forehead at the crease=extrovert, feeler

Crease???
I guess B.

3.
a. rounded forehead=extrovert, feeler
b. widow's peak= introvert, feeler
c. Square forehead=Introvert, thinker

What is a widows peak??? V shape? No.
I guess A.

4.
a. wide forehead= extrovert, feeler
b. narrow forehead= introvert thinker

A

B. Cheekbones
1.
a. High=Introvert, thinker
b. Low cheekbones= extrovert, feeler

A

C. Ears
1.
a. Small=Introvert, sensing
b. big ears=extrovert, intuition
c. perfect sized ears= extrovert, intuition

C

2.
a. ears as high or higher than brows=intuition
b. ears lower than brows=sensing

B

3.
a. round ears=intuition, feeler
b. thin and pointy ears=sensing, thinker

A

4.
a. attached ears=sensing, thinker
b. unattached ears= intuition, feeler

B

D. Lips
1.
a. Thin lips=introvert, thinker, judger
b. Normal lips= introvert, judger, feeler
c. full lips=extrovert, feeler, perceiver

I had mouth sores as a kid which ruined my lips. Most likely B

2.
a. narrow mouth=introvert, thinker, judger
b. wide mouth=extrovert, feeler, perceiver

A

3.
a. downward mouth=introvert, feeler, judger
b. straight mouth=thinker, perceiver, introvert
c. upwards mouth=extrovert, thinker, perceiver

A

4.
a. full top lip=intuition, thinker
b. bigger bottom lip=sensing, feeler

B narrowly

E. Eyes
1.
a. small eyes=introvert, intuition, thinker
b. large eyes=extrovert, sensing, feeler
c. medium eyes=thinker, intuition

B

2.
a. downward eyes= introvert, judger, feeler
b. upward eyes=extrovert, perceiver, feeler
c. straight eyes=thinker

A

3.
a. evenset eyes=intuition, judger, thinker
b. uneven set eyes=sensing, perceiver, feeler

B

4.
a. precisely one eye apart=intuition, judger
b. less than one eye apart=perceiver
c. eyes more than one eye length apart=sensing, perceiver

A

5.
a. eyes not deepset=intuition
b. deep set eyes=sensing

B

F. Nose
1.
a. Small nose=sensing, perceiver
b. Big nose= judger, intuition

B

2.
a. Flared nostrils= intuition, judger
b. narrow nostrils=sensing, perceiver

Sort of A ig?

3.
a. 3 bump nose= intuition, judger
b. 2 or less nose bumps=perceiver, sensing

Wth is a nose bump?

Probably b

4.
a. upturned end= sensing, feeler
b. even ended nose= thinker
c. downturned nose= intuition, thinker

Can't tell if A or C probably A
5.
a. long nose=judger, intuition
b. short rounded nose=sensing, perceiving 

More A than B ig


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Introverted= (forehead and lips mostly)
> Extroverted= (forehead and lips mostly)
> Intuition= (nose and eyes mostly)
> Sensing= (nose and ears and eyes mostly)
> ...


INTJ from the pics in my opinion but I will tell you from your answers as well in a sec…


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> INTJ from the pics in my opinion but I will tell you from your answers as well in a sec…


Hell. Every time I think I'm closer to a certain answer it runs away again like a bird, piloting a blimp.

Thank you for doing your own run there and tallying them up.

It is true I get INTJ on most test results (when redoing them or doing different ones) and the voice app.

I find it hard to view myself as J in general, perhaps a bias against J notionally?
Not that I like P much either. But that's meaningless at this point.


The other person who disagrees with Ciel and the person replying to them alongside me, suggested a bog site with groups which could go to any of INFP INTP INTJ reasonably, similar to the voice app.

There is 0 way I am ISTP or ISTJ off of that site but the voice app will also mention these.

Why the heck is this so confusing?

Temperaments are a lot more simple. I'm 50-50 introverted ambivert. MBTI is messy. At least the "I" and turbulence are constant.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> INTJ from the pics in my opinion but I will tell you from your answers as well in a sec…


Also INTJ doesn't well fit my cogs at all as there is no way I am Se in any meaningful aspect. I run from danger and risk like a fly is drawn to light. I do however admit to being a glutton, would that be a possible inferior Se acting out in a 'bad mode' INTJ lavishing in creature comforts? (This does also match negative Taurus behaviour).


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

According to your own analysis you are either ISFJ or INFJ.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> According to your own analysis you are either ISFJ or INFJ.


Well I have the benefit of seeing myself in a mirror but it is definitely ambiguous to leave it at some IxxJ.

There is actually little resistance on me about T/F because I use both a lot nowadays - even if before I was using mostly T for F goals.

N and S though is harder to tell. I have bad intuition on some things and good on others, and likewise for sensing. I guess I use S more but understand N more? It's foggy.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Well I have the benefit of seeing myself in a mirror but it is definitely ambiguous to leave it at some IxxJ.
> 
> There is actually little resistance on me about T/F because I use both a lot nowadays - even if before I was using mostly T for F goals.
> 
> N and S though is harder to tell. I have bad intuition on some things and good on others, and likewise for sensing. I guess I use S more but understand N more? It's foggy.





lilacleia16 said:


> According to your own analysis you are either ISFJ or INFJ.


Ultimately Ciel's point that I have sensory memory would then lead ISFJ.

Also there are some things about ISFJs - constructive practical view - that I relate to, and some things about INFJ I do NOT relate to - particularly being ambiverted introvert (I am introverted ambivert). This matches nicely to INFJ as melancholic supine and ISFJ as supine melancholic of which I am the latter. Also that INFJs do not speak their mind as much and ask you to read it more - I am aware I ask people to read my mind and try to tell them, as poorly as it is. This communication breakdown probably explains my online relationship failing at least in part.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> According to your own analysis you are either ISFJ or INFJ.


INFJs have that 'soul-staring" stare. I don't think I have that, do I?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

The Contrasting Shades of an ISFJ vs. INFJ (thepleasantpersonality.com)

*ISFJ vs. INFJ* key difference lies in their preference to take in information from their immediate surroundings. ISFJs use sensory impressions to learn while INFJs use intuition preference to make sense of the world.


Well I always "reinvent the wheel" and need first-hand experience to learn and remember by. So does that seal the coffin for N? Ciel said earlier that this is Ne behaviour but I don't see why it can't be Si too. Instant snapshot, memory.


ISFJs are sensing personalities. They are detail-oriented and prefer to stay focused in the present. But it doesn’t mean that they cannot use their weal intuition if the need arises. It’s just that ISFJs prefer to think about the present time. They enjoy being in the moment.

On the contrary, INFJs are intuitive types. They prefer to take in environmental information by looking at the bigger picture. INFJs can analyze future possibilities of a situation and work accordingly.



My mind wanders to the past and future a lot if I have nothing to do. But I do prefer to occupy myself on the present task and let my mind wander once I get into the zone.

I have zero ability to take in environmental information meaningfully as an autistic.
Do I care about the bigger picture? Sometimes yes sometimes no. I value details when the big picture is uninteresting or unfavourable, and vice versa.

Foggy)



ISFJs love to work with facts and details while INFJs rely more on abstract ideas. They can see through ambiguities better than an ISFJ. INFJs rely on hunches and gut feeling to make sense of their surroundings.

ISFJs rely on past experiences. They rely on their judgments that had worked well previously. ISFJs are traditional believers while INFJs prefer to do things that interest them in the real world.



I love abstract ideas but only if I can sense them in my mind's eye as a chart, graph, etc. I am a visual learner and a spatial thinker. I have many hunches but do not trust them. I know patterns are inconsistent but I feel safety in trusting the past due to gambler's fallacy (i.e. I believe things are likely to happen the way they usually do). I dislike doing things in the real world! I would call myself a believer, I'm traditional to the extent that I like blueprints and routines more than I enjoy traditions for themselves. I do like facts and details but only if I am both interested and can verify or trust them. I like methodology.


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

Lowest to highest:
Se <= Ni <= Te <= Fi <= Fe <= Ti <= Ne <= Si 
This order suggests ISFJ as well because of Si being first and the top 4 are in ISFJ.


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> INFJs have that 'soul-staring" stare. I don't think I have that, do I?


no.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Well Lila it looks like you've come to similar conclusions as me and I'm starting to believe Ciel a bit more.


I still struggle to reconcile this with the IIEE/EEII system's descriptors that only focus on the four letters and on two-cog pairings.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

*ISFJ vs. INFJ – The key differences*
The major points of differences between an ISFJ and INFJ are enumerated below:



ISFJINFJ*ISFJs are sensing types. They are practical-minded and hold a realistic life approach.* They prefer to live in the present moment only.INFJs are intuitive types. They are future focused and *look into future possibilities* rather than only talking about present issues.*ISFJs stick to time tested methodologies of doing things. They never experiment with new things until it has passed the test of time.*Being an intuitive personality. INFJs love to explore and experiment with new ideas. They love to solve problems creatively, using varied tools and methodologies.*ISFJs do not like to have too many varieties in life. They are comfortable with old routines.*INFJs love to have variety. They will feel monotonous if things function in the same ways for a long time.*ISFJs can plan and organize things better than an INFJ. They are meticulous, orderly, and neat.*INFJs are also organized but they will do it in innovative ways. The usual organization tactics do not work for them. They prefer to plan more about future possibilities*ISFJs are happy to be in the moment. They love to explore things now and here, rather than seeking out things that will happen in future*INFJs are future focused. They use their power of ideas and imaginations to carve a beautiful future.*ISFJs think about short term goals.*They set out to form big goals that meet their big aspirations in life.*ISFJs are precise in their work.**INFJs prefer to go through the broad details* and draw inferences about future possibilities.*They are traditional and more conservative than an INFJ.*INFJs also set out to meet traditions yet they are more flexible and open-minded than an ISFJ. They love to stay open to others’ ideas and opinions.ISFJs are more active and *prefer realism more than imagination. They love to deal with facts and tangible ideas that have real life significance. *INFJs are less active and *prefer to lie down and enjoy the comforts of life.* They love playing with imaginations that may not have any realistic relevance.*ISFJs can understand the innate feelings of others* more than an INFJ.INFJs are more touch based with their innate feelings.*ISFJs will use physical connection in their intimate relationships for the sake of expressing and exchanging love.*An INFJ will use physical intimacy with a partner for strong emotional bonding.ISFJs can hide their true feelings from the outside world. *They will unwind in a private space of their own.*INFJs are more expressive as far as expression of emotion is concerned. *You can say that they wear their hearts on their sleeves* so that others can notice them.
ISFJ VS. INFJ
*To Sum Up*
In conclusion, we can infer that both these personality types seem to be very likely on the surface, but in reality they are not the same types. In the face of stress and trying times,* ISFJs will externalize their anxiousness by becoming more critical and abusive of others. They tend to show their annoyance and disappointment outwardly.*

Contrary to this, we have INFJs who will become more risky and tend to show aggression more than an ISFJ. They will indulge in high risk behavior that seems to be an adventure to impress their senses.


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## lilacleia16 (12 mo ago)

I read somewhere online that INFJ's are ESTP wannabes and that could explain the high-risk behavior as adventures of the senses.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> I read somewhere online that INFJ's are ESTP wannabes and that could explain the high-risk behavior as adventures of the senses.


Yeah that's about 0% me. I'll sooner believe I'm INTJ than INFJ but it still doesn't fit. INTP was a really good guess in some ways but I will take ISFJ and roll with it.

Maybe "ISFJs in bad situations" act like INTP or perhaps their ENTP subconscious.
In that case, I might be thankful for my problems.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Well the order is what decides the type together with functions themselves so it should be spelled out properly.
> 
> You're acting plenty like ISFJ. Fe doesn't have to be nurtruting when it's unhealthy, it can just be manipulative. If you consider yourself being abused and disrespected you won't give someone access to your Fe caregiving.
> 
> ...


What arguments can you make against me being INTP? Many INTP things still fit me, including the functions just in another order. Seeing how I barely make use of Si and Fe consciously, how can you be sure I'm a broken ISFJ and not a functional INTP?

Also there are 4 temperaments but the mode has blends which combines to 16 (4 + 4P2).
The new system uses 5 but I like to believe this corresponds to A/T in MBTI.

Some quoras on the INTP ISFJ confusion

What are the differences and similarities between ISFJ and INTP? - Quora
Half of the time, I seem to be an ISFJ. Other times, I am an INTP. Is it possible to have almost opposite personality types? - Quora
How do I know if I am an ISFJ or an INTP? - Quora
Are ISFJs sort of the unhealthy version of INTPs? - Quora


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Currently I wish to believe I am in a rebellious phase to the extent I no longer trust or rely emotionally on authority, as such that I would pick supine choleric temperament blend (INTP) with its disregard for others' rules.
But in reality I do follow my family and then after my friends and mentors. Just with wariness. This following based on allegiance is a melancholic trait and leans IxFJ (INFJ for melancholic supine and ISFJ for supine melancholic).
Again my temperament tests put the order as supine melancholic so I go with ISFJ off those two.

The quoras also note ISFJ to be the most extroverted introvert which resolves my dilemna with not being "introverted enough" for that crush in the past.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

@ciel sos infel and one more thing, I tested recently as INFJ wanting to be ISTJ liking INTJ on one place, and as ISTJ-T on 16personalities. What makes you sure I am not ISTJ? (I'm assuming you will reference a function position again).

In the comparison to temperaments again;
ISTJ - pure mel
ISFJ - sup mel
INTP - sup chol

Sup chol can mistype as either sup or mel (INFP or ISTJ)

But maybe sup mel can mistype as sup chol

I PMed @Eric B about this topic as he has a Quora post mentioning it that I stumbled upon while comparing ISFJ and INTP.

This INTP vs ISFJ | Compare Personality Types - Personality at Work also marginally leans me to ISFJ but I bet I come off across INTP from its examples. Showing is not always intent.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Would distrusting my gut feeling be an example of Ne "grip"?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> These aren't the same questions. I replied "bad" in response to "why did my parents discourage me to use the internet"
> The questions got very mixed up in here tbf.


And that's likely due to Te trickster.



ShushFox said:


> You said I was before though, so how do you re-evauate that in light of new info? Ditto for saying I have no Si.


Yes and I've clearly explained why I considered you to have high Ne. I didn't investigate you or your type and I took the information in the thread title at a face value and the information was "I'm an INTP".
Yes, that Si is a pickle. While Fe parent Fi critic is pretty clear you've given me plenty of conflicting information when it comes to your Si. I don't know which of your conflicting replies talks about general tendencies or which talks about your current state. After hearing more from you about your situation it's very likely that you're under heavy stress and that can lead to what's called a 'grip'. I have Se grip, you have Ne grip. What it actually is though is a person jumping into their aspirational in an unhealthy, uncontrollable manner to deal with excess stress. I jump into ESTP aspirational, you into ENTP aspirational and that would also explain why you could be perceived as an INTP but you're not an INTP. Your sense of self worth is in shambles, that doesn't happen for Ti hero. You've also haven't displayed any INTP tendencies when it comes to sciences or general arrogant, emotionally distant behaviour that would rather turn every unpleasant situation into a joke rather than face it head on. Are you much of a joker?



ShushFox said:


> Yes but idk if it's true or not or if I'm just agreeing with you because I'm suggestible and agreeable in the eyes of perceived authority and of knowledge.


Another confirmation that you're not an INTP.
I've told you what to do. Go to CSJ's channel, find 8 videos about each of the cognitive functions and watch them. Then find 8 videos about each of the positions and watch them. Then things should start making sense and you won't be at the mercy of belief.



ShushFox said:


> I just get that feeling from the notion that everyone is by default low worth or low confidence until they work to prove otherwise, it feels crabs in a bucket and communistic.


I'm from an ex soviet country, there was a saying in that time that loosely translated would be "whether you stand or whether you lie, you still deserve to get your due pay". Hard work wasn't really a thing in socialism/communism.
Working to prove your worth is meritocracy.



ShushFox said:


> That's true. I never feel confident in anything. Especially skill wise.
> I do remember I used to feel confident in school as a kid but that faded as I changed schools and it got progressively harder to keep good grades (at least to my friends' levels and my family's standards).


You don't have high Ti (because the tendency is to be blindly confident) nor you have high Te (because Te is input/output of regurgitated information and that's what school is about so these people don't struggle in education).



ShushFox said:


> @ciel sos infel ehh>?


I've told you. You're free to believe whatever you want to believe. All I have to offer is the truth.
I've given you ample explanations why you're not an INFP. An INFP would not keep asking the question "why" because Ti demon doesn't care about understanding things. You can't be an ISTJ because ISTJ won't struggle with school and won't mind exerting effort academically like you seem to. ENFP is just a slightly different INFP, the functions are mechanically similar enough to discard both at the same time.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Would distrusting my gut feeling be an example of Ne "grip"?


I'm not sure but distrusting the feedback from your intuition would fit as a default state for the inferior. You've said that your intuition only started being felt by you recently. From what I've heard inferior function starts coming into focus past 20, for me it was more like 30.
Since Se grip is about throwing a person into wild pursuit of sensation Ne grip would involve similarly wild pursuit of other options, random interests, greener grass and so on, so an unhealthy trust in your gut feeling rather than distrust. Like I've said though, I'm not entirely sure.


As for the other questions in your other posts I've already answered them in my prior post before I've read those questions.
You're not an INFJ. You're not an INTJ but you're perfectly analogous to an INTJ.



ShushFox said:


> Maybe "ISFJs in bad situations" act like INTP or perhaps their ENTP subconscious.


Yes. That is very likely. Aspirational form (ENTP for ISFJ) kicks in during excessive stress (in an unhealthy, uncontrollable manner) or in a situation you've practiced enough to reach a high level of performance so you don't feel insecure anymore in that particular area so a state of confidence (in a healthy, controllable manner).


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

lilacleia16 said:


> I read somewhere online that INFJ's are ESTP wannabes and that could explain the high-risk behavior as adventures of the senses.


Would you like to be summed up as an "ENTJ wannabe"?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

This is what I use to compare temperament and MBTI; it is similar to what Eric showed on his blog.
IK there is another version that swaps choleric as ENFJ (Kerisey's?), believe he wrote that as well if I can find where...

Yes, I use the letters because the cognitive functions confuse me. That's some 16 positions for 8 functions; you're looking at 16P8 * 2 combinations. Temperaments can give as much as that but it often breaks down to just a small square number (4, 9, 16, 25...) and then fractals.
Temperaments go affection determines control determines inclusion -> average them out to get overall blend, or list the combo and pin in on a chart of expression vs response.

You can make the argument for me being ISFJ with this quite easily;
-Amiable analytical relating thinker VS pure melancholy thinking OR driving/directing
-SJ over NT as much as I dislike to admit this ( I believe nobody should decide for me , which is both mel and chol; but

FJ because low expressive (introverted, supine in inclusion) (not pragmatic in action or confidence, cooperative)
F/J because moderate responsive (ambivert, melancholic in control but likely supine in affection; I guess I was lying to myself about being choleric in either control or affection; focus is on both motive and structure due to a T-F competition I have and being almost even on P/J)


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

For me I think it's an ego or self-image thing to say I use sensing and feeling more effortlessly/naturally than thinking and intuiting. Whether it's that I'm always stressed so always act like ENTP is hard to say.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I'm afraid I didn't really understand that last part. Same method, different goals, is that it?


No. I thought about it for a bit and that's not really what I was trying to convey. More like same mechanism different element. That doesn't really explain it does it. Hm... Look Te people will try providing quotations for whatever they say, everything needs to be referenced to some credible source. Fe does the same but with moral sources - quoting Bible or whatever is widely acclaimed as a foundation for morality in their society.



ShushFox said:


> I thought you were INFJ not ISFJ?
> Confused.


Everyone has a shadow. The precise reasons for feeling 'mental comfort' or 'panic' are different for each type but the general emotional trigger of 'mental comfort' or 'panic' itself is universal.



ShushFox said:


> I don't know. I'm best sticking in one domain of logic at a time rather than mixing them, and I've never liked applied work. Not sure how that's me being tricky


Oh you. You do have a Te trickster. It has nothing to do with it you being 'tricky'. Not that I'm aware of anyway. See, if you went through those videos or transcripts of CSJ, that I've told you about, then we wouldn't be having this misunderstanding.
Consider this guy's explanation about the question "why".








ShushFox said:


> Does that give me a reason to be a feeler of any kind? Ok, parent is weaker than hero. I thought autists are almost invariably thinkers, but I'm also a very mild case thanks to years of therapy.


Or maybe it's just thinkers being misdiagnosed as autists?
As much as you think your Fe might suck at the moment _(and I don't feel mine is any good when I look at what ENFJs are capable of doing)_ - you don't have Fi demon of an INTP. It's not about being sociable. Being sociable is behaviour. Remember that flow chart I've given you? Judging someone's type merely by behaviour can be misleading. You have to dig into the reason behind that behaviour - the motivation, the reasoning that formed it. Only then can you see what function influenced that behaviour.



ShushFox said:


> Okay, can you at least give me a link? IDK what "CSJ" stands for. Maybe I can read video subtitles
> 
> IS it this dude? Begin Your Journey Here | C.S. Joseph (csjoseph.life)


Yes but I won't know how to find the exact podscasts on his site. I watched them on his yt channel. And again - the guy has a lot of errors in what he's teaching but the basics are good enough. Just don't take his every word as Gospel but rather use his experiences to build your own understanding and then you'll start noticing inconsistencies, at which point you won't need to listen to him and will be able to work it out on your own.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Remember I said a lot of INTP stuff applies to me?
> How do you know if someone is an INTP? - Quora
> Something like 90% of lists like these except for dark humour and a few others
> 
> ...


I've been mistaken for an INTP multiple times online, even by INTP who's as good as me (and in some areas better than me) in understanding of cognitive functions, but I'm not one. When I explained the differences in my motivations as opposed to his then he conceded that I'm an INFJ after all.

You don't have Ti hero, you're to insecure about your own worth, too ignorant about how people perceive your worth, and too occupied with feeling like a bad person.

At this point I think I'm repeating myself.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> No. I thought about it for a bit and that's not really what I was trying to convey. More like same mechanism different element. That doesn't really explain it does it. Hm... Look Te people will try providing quotations for whatever they say, everything needs to be referenced to some credible source. Fe does the same but with moral sources - quoting Bible or whatever is widely acclaimed as a foundation for morality in their society.
> 
> 
> Everyone has a shadow. The precise reasons for feeling 'mental comfort' or 'panic' are different for each type but the general emotional trigger of 'mental comfort' or 'panic' itself is universal.
> ...


Hmm okay



> More like same mechanism different element. That doesn't really explain it does it.


Makes enough sense.



> Remember that flow chart I've given you?


I don't remember if you showed me a visual or not.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> I've been mistaken for an INTP multiple times online, even by INTP who's as good as me (and in some areas better than me) in understanding of cognitive functions, but I'm not one. When I explained the differences in my motivations as opposed to his then he conceded that I'm an INFJ after all.
> 
> You don't have Ti hero, you're to insecure about your own worth, too ignorant about how people perceive your worth, and too occupied with feeling like a bad person.
> 
> At this point I think I'm repeating myself.


Probably. But people don't see motivations, only results, and many don't care to look; so-


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> The test at that CSJ site gave me ISTJ again. C. S. Joseph (csjoseph.life)
> 
> What excludes me from being ISTJ?





ShushFox said:


> I hate (...) statistical proofs, and practical applications like lab work.


Also how you seem to struggle with school _(learning and regurgitating knowledge is Te)_
Also every sentence that I've pointed out how you've displayed Fe traits over Fi traits. I didn't revoke those verdicts. 
Also every time I've told you you have Te trickster.
Individually you could dismiss these reasons but there's too many confirmations.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I believe marriage matters because modern people are degenerate and the world is being depopulated.


Outline the entire logic. How does marriage prevent, shields from or obstructs degeneration and depopulation?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I don't remember if you showed me a visual or not.


The arrows were done via text. Ctrl+F "->" on one of the prior pages and you'll find it.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Outline the entire logic. How does marriage prevent, shields from or obstructs degeneration and depopulation?


Monogamy ensures commitment and well-raised children. It creates a reason and obligation to think of someone other than yourself and someone in specific. Polygamy leads to present-minded thinking over future-minded thinking. It diffuses responsibility socially. It leads to people having less kids and raising the kids they do have less well. Because noone is responsible for them the most and noone feels a bond to them, particularly among the men. Kids are the future. Adults are the present. Choosing hedonism over building a future is selfish. Marriage is designed to counteract that selfishness by organizing and officializing future-thinking, making it easy. Bachelors are more likely to stir up shit or just not work, because work requires future-minded motivation, and there is no future reason to live when one has no kids, leading to being seen as unimportant and acting out. "why should I work?" "for my family, for my bloodline"


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)




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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Looking at the CSJ test.

I am usually split on Q2 -









If I go with the right, then I get stuck again on Q4 between authority INFP and justifier ISTJ










If I go with the left, I get satisfaction ISFJ or discovering INTP.










These questions are all very narrow to me. 1 and 3 I am sure of though, I do not like adventure (earth sign), and I do not like approaching people (unconfident, maybe meek).


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

IF we're being honest though, I do care about my wants and desires too, but I'm not trying to make life memorable for anyone else, or for me.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Efficency is king. Doing something a certain way because “that’s how we have always done it” will never compute in our heads.
We hold little respect for people who frequently talk in absolutes. To an INTP, the only absolute in life is the fact that there are none.
Don’t debate politics or religion with an INTP, we will often take the opposite side of yours in the debate only to make the conversation interesting.

I don't agree with these INTP descriptors on quora at all. Mm.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

And hold on, you say MBTI is inborn? Like tellable from as a baby, not learned from environment and not changing?

In other words, a type is never moulded if it is not natural, but is a response to stress.
Like one does not become INTP from ISFJ, one becomes like ENTP under stress as ISFJ, but one was always ISFJ? Was I always? I've somewhat been raised to be like one ig. Aside the expectations to study a lot.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> By default IS_J is about as risk averse as IN_J because Ne inferior is worried and Ne nemesis is scared about exploring other options in our lives.
> Could you tell me one such ritual that you became convinced about and what made you convinced? The nature of that "why" is important.


Remind me why I can't be INFJ? Having sensory? What do I not have that INFJ does have?


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

This low reliability thing is quite apparent isn't it?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> And hold on, you say MBTI is inborn? Like tellable from as a baby, not learned from environment and not changing?


It's not like I can prove it but yes, I think it is. The only anecdotal evidence I have is that disparity between mine and my broher's attitude during breastfeeding that my mother told me about.



ShushFox said:


> In other words, a type is never moulded if it is not natural, but is a response to stress.
> Like one does not become INTP from ISFJ, one becomes like ENTP under stress as ISFJ, but one was always ISFJ? Was I always? I've somewhat been raised to be like one ig. Aside the expectations to study a lot.


Not only under stress. Aspirational form can be something very fulfilling.
Your type, from the start, includes 4 personalities _(which are 4 different alignments of cognitive functions)_ that you that you switch between depending on your emotional state. I haven't yet figured how we jump into our super-ego _(for ISFJ that's INTJ)_ but if you ever figure it out let me know.
You can be made to rely on one of your sub-personalities too much or too little through nurture and environmental pressure, but it's not a healthy, energetically balanced way to live, it's more like emergency mode _(and working in emergency mode too long breaks the machinery because it wasn't designed for that)_.



ShushFox said:


> Remind me why I can't be INFJ? Having sensory? What do I not have that INFJ does have?


Spine?
Haha. Couldn't help myself. Don't take it seriously, please, just some stereotype based humor. You did say you're usually kinda servile or something like that. Not like INFJs can't be like that too but if you were to compare the two types ISFJ will have a lot more patience than INFJ.
Being capable of sensory simulation and memory is an obvious sign but that's not the only thing. You've said that you're confused about what you want, and you don't even like thinking about it? I might be misremembering things at this point. I've already solved the problem so the unnecessary information got flushed from my Se RAM.

There's also the way your logic is structured:


ShushFox said:


> Monogamy ensures commitment and well-raised children. It creates a reason and obligation to think of someone other than yourself and someone in specific. Polygamy leads to present-minded thinking over future-minded thinking. It diffuses responsibility socially. It leads to people having less kids and raising the kids they do have less well. Because noone is responsible for them the most and noone feels a bond to them, particularly among the men. Kids are the future. Adults are the present. Choosing hedonism over building a future is selfish. Marriage is designed to counteract that selfishness by organizing and officializing future-thinking, making it easy. Bachelors are more likely to stir up shit or just not work, because work requires future-minded motivation, and there is no future reason to live when one has no kids, leading to being seen as unimportant and acting out. "why should I work?" "for my family, for my bloodline"


It would be difficult for me to be as down to earth as you are with this explanation. Those concerns would be important to me as well but, for example, while you see merely bachelors stirring up shit I see a war machine in the brewing.
Also you can't get more DUTY than "Why should I work" "for my family, for my bloodline".

EDIT: Also how much you've been grilling me and drilling and grinding this issue to the smallest detail, seeking repeated confirmations, despite me seeing that you're an ISFJ the moment you've said that you have sensory simulation capability, few pages ago, without needing to ardously go through every tiny grain and minute angle like you had to.

*You are an ISFJ.*

My work here is done. If you have any doubts just reread this conversation beacause from this point I think the only thing I can do is to keep repeating myself.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> It's not like I can prove it but yes, I think it is. The only anecdotal evidence I have is that disparity between mine and my broher's attitude during breastfeeding that my mother told me about.
> 
> 
> Not only under stress. Aspirational form can be something very fulfilling.
> ...





> if you were to compare the two types ISFJ will have a lot more patience than INFJ.


My patience is thin sometimes.



> You've said that you're confused about what you want, and you don't even like thinking about it?


I don't like thinking about subjective open-ended stuff, like exact religious beliefs for instance.



> I see a war machine in the brewing.


I do too but I self-censor to avoid seeming offensive.



> Also how much you've been grilling me


is this an ISFJ thing



> "Why should I work" "for my family, for my bloodline".


What else is there???



> You can be made to rely on one of your sub-personalities too much or too little through nurture and environmental pressure, but it's not a healthy, energetically balanced way to live, it's more like emergency mode


Great, when do I break down?
Confessions of an Unhealthy ISFJ - Psychology Junkie 

Also do you think I also use ESFP perhaps? Maybe socially? It's the sanguine one. I have a sanguine mask (although Eric mentioned this in reference to supine cholerics/INTPs).


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

I'm going to give you the opposite advice of ciel, since it's clear you need it.

Type is an illusion, it doesn't really exist. It's a way to classify people into groups, there is no fundamental "truth" in every person it reflects. There is no "type" at the heart of your mind that drives you, rather type is a description of a person's driving forces - and those driving forces are under no obligation to manifest in a way that cleanly falls into a type.

People aren't as consistent or stable over time as Jungian typology would like it to be, and personality doesn't really fall into neat structures. It's a useful model because it does describe a majority of people well. But, if it doesn't fit, _it doesn't fit_.

You seem caught between the need to fit in, to find a way to describe yourself - and rejecting every person's attempt to tell you what they think you are. You might accept a typing one day, and go back to doubting it in a week. It's clear that typings don't help you with your identity issues. You're always arguing back and asking for advice at once.

That cycle doesn't seem to help you.

Your actual options are:

Look elsewhere for answers.
Stop caring about who you are, and just live instead of worrying about it. You'll probably find answers in the process anyway.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

I am not that good with remembering details about people. Nor do I really like to do it. Aren't ISFJs normally good at that?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Bro like uh


I don't understand this answer.
Did you manage to locate the video?


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I am not that good with remembering details about people. Nor do I really like to do it. Aren't ISFJs normally good at that?


Compare this to:



ShushFox said:


> Do I need information? Yes. Will I ask questions? Always. I prong to why first. Less is more. I definitely need info a lot but I don't go looking for it research-style. Info on people and news more so yes. I admit I like gossip as a guilty pleasure somewhat but only to an extent.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Compare this to:


I guess it varies on my mood and what I'm remembering at the moment



ciel sos infel said:


> I don't understand this answer.
> Did you manage to locate the video?


I was saying I can't find it


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I was saying I can't find it


Well, I gave you everything you need to find it. Even on a chance there was some grammar error later on, I've advised you to watch a certain number of videos about cognitive functions and certain noumber of videos about positions of cognitive functions. Do the math.

Also one more thing, there are certain words that need to be said after all.


ShushFox said:


> I don't know. where. that is. If you keep mentioning it, you ought to have a homepage for it.


You've had a video linked to you, the video about ISFJ type. That video was on a channel with a very relevant name.
I don't ought anything. I don't owe you anything. You're acting entitled. You should say something like "I'm sorry, I can't seem to find it, maybe I got something confused." instead.



ShushFox said:


> Vast majority of people aren't my business


In this context they are. You're gonna get abandoned and ghosted if you do that thing I warned you about not doing, and it's just so unnecessary. I'm not telling you to be friends with everyone. I'm telling you that if you act like that you'll pretty much have no friends and it's not because the people you've alienated are bad or selfish, but because you're expecting something of them that they didn't consent to provide.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Well, I gave you everything you need to find it. Even on a chance there was some grammar error later on, I've advised you to watch a certain number of videos about cognitive functions and certain noumber of videos about positions of cognitive functions. Do the math.
> 
> Also one more thing, there are certain words that need to be said after all.
> 
> ...


The video on that channel is buried in this topic; also, that channel itself has the Se-nemesis video buried among thousands of videos and many long ambiguously named playlists. I don't think I'm confused, I think it's silly to ask me to dig out something like that. Is asking you to do it entitled? Perhaps. If you mention the video I assume it's in your search history. That would make it much easier.
_and again if you point it out, the onus is on you to share it. That's how it works in my books._

I don't go into my personal life with everyone, I use it as a shield when people question my behaviours, and if they don't get it, I elaborate. In my shoes, they'd be as bad or worse, I'm strong-minded imo for being mentally stable in light of the shit I put up with.

So if people ask me 'why am I moody or inconsistent', I slap them with a "because my childhood and home life suck" and they shut up with their assumptions about me and grow a little imagination and empathy. I'm tired of having to pretend I'm normal for them, some of them surely have similar problems yet they act like it's easy as cheese to hide it 24/7.

People overall are obsessed with status to the point that they hide problems which are no fault of their own. Playing that social game is gruelling, and you can't expain, excuse, deflect, or ignore/avoid every 'odd thing' you have as a result of your upbringing. The truth leaks through and people judge.

Better just be upfront, put them in their place and pop their bigass ego bubble over me being too 'weird' or 'ignorant' etc for them. They think they're so much better for hiding their problems flawlessly, they can kiss it where the sun don't shine. I know they sell their soul to look normal.

I think they're also just uncomfortable or self-conscious about their problems, which I understand irl as a problem but in online discussions, not really. You're not even seeing them.

Again, the truth always comes out. Being so wrapped in lies is unhealthy. Better let people sort out their conflicts and judgments directly than sugarcoat everything forever. That's just waste of emotional energy.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> The video on that channel is buried in this topic; also, that channel itself has the Se-nemesis video buried among thousands of videos and many long ambiguously named playlists. I don't think I'm confused, I think it's silly to ask me to dig out something like that. Is asking you to do it entitled? Perhaps. If you mention the video I assume it's in your search history. That would make it much easier.
> _and again if you point it out, the onus is on you to share it. That's how it works in my books._


Well, yes, it would be ridiculous for me to expect you to comb through every single video, looking that one on "Se nemesis". Except I've never told you to look up a video explicitly on "Se nemesis". I don't know why you've assumed I have. Could you explain that to me?

The video I meant is the first video that came in your search. Why didn't you do the math like I've asked you to? 8 videos about functions. 8 videos about positions. If there was a video for each function in each position that would be 64 videos. I can't even.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Well, yes, it would be ridiculous for me to expect you to comb through every single video, looking that one on "Se nemesis". Except I've never told you to look up a video explicitly on "Se nemesis". I don't know why you've assumed I have. Could you explain that to me?
> 
> The video I meant is the first video that came in your search. Why didn't you do the math like I've asked you to? 8 videos about functions. 8 videos about positions. If there was a video for each function in each position that would be 64 videos. I can't even.


I remembered you saying a video about Se nemesis on the channel. Perhaps "Se nemesis is mentioned in the general video about Se"?
And this dude has an excessive amount of videos so nothing would surprise me.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

Look alright @ciel sos infel I'm sorry, I won't act demanding anymore. I'll look up Se nemesis, if entitlement is ISFJ or not, etc, elsewhere, and stop bothering you. Thank you for all your help with this the last two weeks.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Look alright @ciel sos infel I'm sorry, I won't act demanding anymore. I'll look up Se nemesis, if entitlement is ISFJ or not, etc, elsewhere, and stop bothering you. Thank you for all your help with this the last two weeks.


No, it's in the video about the nemesis function, not in the video about Se.
From the start I've only said to look for video about nemesis. Did I misuse the 'the' article or something? Anyway here it is, it's the first result that you saw:




I'd advise you watch the entire playlist whenever you find the time.

In this playlist watch the 8 videos about cognitive functions (but hey, if you get curious watch the entire thing, the titles sound useful):


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

I have a theory that
Se - what it is (or what it can be)
Si - what it was (or what it would be)
Ne - what it could be
Ni - what it should be
Fe - what it is supposed to be
Fi - what it is meant to be
Te - what is appears to be
Ti - what it seems to be


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> I have a theory that
> Se - what it is (or what it can be)
> Si - what it was (or what it would be)
> Ne - what it could be
> ...


What do you mean by "what is meant to be" and "what is seems to be"?
Otherwise, I agree, with a caveat that it's impossible to encapsulate a cognitive function in one phrase, there's always more traits to be applied.

I had a similar reflection, if you're interested in comparing yours to mine:


ciel sos infel said:


> Ni - focused on the future and solutions, doesn't like unplanned actions, seeks the best way of doing things
> Si - focused on the past and duty, doesn't like change, upholds the traditional way of doing things
> Ne - focused on "what if" and possibilities, doesn't like to be tied down to one option, seeks other ways of doing things
> Se - focused on the present and immediately relevant, doesn't like to be held down or theorizing, reacts and makes adjustments in the moment


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> What do you mean by "what is meant to be" and "what is seems to be"?
> Otherwise, I agree, with a caveat that it's impossible to encapsulate a cognitive function in one phrase, there's always more traits to be applied.
> 
> I had a similar reflection, if you're interested in comparing yours to mine:


Meant as in 'meant for the universe' and seems as in 'under the seams at first glance'

Your prognoses seem on spot to me, but you know this stuff waaaay better than I do so I am going mostly off trust.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> Meant as in 'meant for the universe' and seems as in 'under the seams at first glance'


You kinda lost me there, maybe it's just I didn't understand you properly. If I were to try fill in those parts in your model I'd say:
Fi - what is right to be ('right' in moral consistency sense contrasted to 'supposed' as in norms)
Ti - what it would need to be (as in 'in order for it to work' - so understanding of logical principles behind a system)



ShushFox said:


> Your prognoses seem on spot to me, but you know this stuff waaaay better than I do so I am going mostly off trust.


You understood the material and proved it through constructing your own, majorly valid conclusion. That's what Ti does. It can build new, consistent elements upon structures it already incorporated into it's system. Now you just need to build more. It's an invigorating experience, to figure something out on your own and be correct, rather than just learning about something from someone else, isn't it? Eventually you'll start noticing how people play out their cognitive scripts _(how their cognitive functions manifest in real behaviours)_ in real time, before your very eyes, and maybe you'll realize things that few else had.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> You kinda lost me there, maybe it's just I didn't understand you properly. If I were to try fill in those parts in your model I'd say:
> Fi - what is right to be ('right' in moral consistency sense contrasted to 'supposed' as in norms)
> Ti - what it would need to be (as in 'in order for it to work' - so understanding of logical principles behind a system)
> 
> ...


So long as I don't go mad from the revelation, thanks.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

> Strangely enough I didn't trust my intuition much, I guess I still don't but I do keep it in mind.
> 
> 
> Ni hero can be easily mistaken for Si hero, surprisingly enough.
> Do you have a good memory? Can you replay sensations in your mind or can you only remember that something was 'pleasant' or that it was 'tasty' but can't fell the sensation?


You know what I'm sorry but I'm still doubting this part weeks later. I don't have the world's strongest memory or sensations.



> I've heard of an INFJ-INFJ pair and they were talking about 'addictive honesty'. It was very appealing to me as well.


And I relate to this because I want to be very honest and yet I didn't get along with INFJs while being honest, and we hid things from each other.


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## ciel sos infel (12 mo ago)

ShushFox said:


> You know what I'm sorry but I'm still doubting this part weeks later. I don't have the world's strongest memory or sensations.
> 
> And I relate to this because I want to be very honest and yet I didn't get along with INFJs while being honest, and we hid things from each other.


Possessing any sensory memory eliminates IN_J types.
I cannot verify your claim about how strong your memory is or what you consider strong. Nevertheless your strongest motivator is 'family and bloodline'. It's not that way for me. My family feels alien to me. It's not a value on it's own. I help them because I consider this to be my moral responsibility, not because they're my family. I don't know if I managed to convey the nuance.

Btw I've only came here on accident, I didn't know you've posted anything. Do quote me next time, if you want me to answer.


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## ShushFox (3 mo ago)

ciel sos infel said:


> Possessing any sensory memory eliminates IN_J types.
> I cannot verify your claim about how strong your memory is or what you consider strong. Nevertheless your strongest motivator is 'family and bloodline'. It's not that way for me. My family feels alien to me. It's not a value on it's own. I help them because I consider this to be my moral responsibility, not because they're my family. I don't know if I managed to convey the nuance.
> 
> Btw I've only came here on accident, I didn't know you've posted anything. Do quote me next time, if you want me to answer.


Happy New Year, also I thought you didn't want to answer anymore, so I left it open ended as a thought. Thank you for the answer though.


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