# Which ETP am I?



## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm concerned with N/S due to the large # of N/S mistypings on forums. I really relate a lot to ENTPs but I think there are a few 'weak spots' so to speak, where I don't fit the type... (Disjointed paragraphs coming up!)

(Edit: you can suggest any type, not just the ETPs, if another seems to fit better.)

My stress reaction pretty much consists of believing things like, "I am going to be confined to the social roles other people have assigned to me, for the rest of my life." This sounds pretty Fe/Si, right? Fe because in those times I consider myself to be (partially) defined by other people's judgments of me, and Si because I think I'll be stuck there forever (no opportunity for change). When not stressed, I have 'twinges' of the Fe view still, as in, displeasure at the way I am stereotyped and viewed by society at large, but I believe that I can change it (not singlehandedly). I have optimism for that, rather than the "I am stuck" negative Si.

Another thing about Si is that in times of stress I get involuntarily flooded with negative memories. They are about bad things people said to me, negative judgments, etc. This is probably also Fe-related. When not stressed, I rarely recall past experiences, and I definitely don't get flooding of memories. I've only ever seen the negative side of Si, which makes me sure I'm not an SJ (as they have good use of Si, and so would be able to experience it as a positive force). When not stressed, though, I also have some positive Fe which makes me think it's my tertiary, hence ExTP not IxTP. (By contrast, I've seen nothing to indicate inferior Ni, but who knows...)

I'm not very 'in the moment'. I'm also very uncoordinated and have some spatial/depth perception issues, I think anyway... I seem to have some trouble accurately judging how far away from me things are, in physical space.

I also store memories all out of order from how they actually happened, and I often have to deduce what must have happened. This becomes really obvious when I watch a movie or something, I'll remember the plot totally out of order, and have to deduce the proper order by thinking, "well that could not have happened before this, so..."

I remember the pattern but not the instance. This did not occur to me as strange until I started reading about MBTI and realized that other people don't do this! Often I remember that something happens very often, or... I might build an 'archetype' of a certain kind of person in my mind, over time, which I suppose is pattern recognition, but I won't be able to point to a specific instance/person that contributed to this pattern, it will just be an 'overall' thing, so I'll have lots of patterns recognized, which I often form into 'theories', but I won't have 'proof'... Which brings me to another point, I don't need much proof to consider something as potentially true (note that I can consider many things at once without accepting/believing any of them... just treating them all as possibly true)

New experiences are good but I don't indiscriminately seek them out, there has to be some potential for intellectual stimulation, and little chance of boredom. I think my idea of boredom is a little 'weird', I could be skydiving and still bored. In general, I have a working 'hypothesis' of what will transpire before I go in. I don't need this though.

------

*Ideas... this is the biggest reason I don't think I'm an Ne dominant.* I don't seem to have a constant stream of ideas the way other ENPs do, or perhaps I just don't know what is meant by an 'idea'. I could also be lacking in mental stimulation. I also have a lot of crap ideas that are totally unrealistic, but that I can't let go of. I have trouble maintaining realism in general. I do want to improve the way things are (I like to suggest fixes even if it "ain't broke") but there has to be some semblance of realism in an idea, eg. it has to be physically possible, to be useful/implementable. Much of what I come up with is useless crap.

Oh and lastly, as much as I've read about Se vs. Ne... well I relate to Ne, and I did obviously at one point way back when I changed from NTJ to NTP the first time. But now I'm even more susceptible to confirmation bias, because I know that I 'should' relate to Ne, so I convince myself that I do...

If I were speaking this out loud I would be going so fast, tripping over my words because my brain is obviously running faster than my hands/mouth, as it usually does. I mean, I think you can get a feel for how fast I would be speaking at times lol. I'd be almost interrupting myself, where I cut off a thought to branch off into another one because... I guess that's just how fast my brain runs. No, I have not had caffeine.

I realize this is very long, so even if you just skim it, it would be much appreciated!

Thank you!


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## themartyparade (Nov 7, 2010)

I'd say ENTP.

I'm an ESTP and I can't relate to this.


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## Dizzle (Sep 4, 2010)

Definitely ENTP. I don't have ideas all the time. Only when something stimulates or motivates me to. And then many possibilities start to take shape in my head and I start putting them out there by talking or writing. Or just mentally as well with hand gestures. I can relate to your remembering things out if order and then having to try and arrange them back into a linear logic when I am relaying to someone the sequence of events, whether it's a movie or something that happened at work. I can also relate to being 'bored' skydiving. For me it's like I'm excited about the prospect of doing something new, and when I am in the experience of it, I'm like 'this is it?eh.'.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Dizzle said:


> Definitely ENTP. I don't have ideas all the time. Only when something stimulates or motivates me to. And then many possibilities start to take shape in my head and I start putting them out there by talking or writing. Or just mentally as well with hand gestures. I can relate to your remembering things out if order and then having to try and arrange them back into a linear logic when I am relaying to someone the sequence of events, whether it's a movie or something that happened at work. I can also relate to being 'bored' skydiving. For me it's like I'm excited about the prospect of doing something new, and when I am in the experience of it, I'm like 'this is it?eh.'.


Ok cool, I'm glad to see others relating to it lol. I am excited about future things but when I get there I'm thinking about something else, so I'm not even present enough to enjoy it. I also think that after a day of good conversation... or say I watched a good movie or something, anything interesting... I'll feel really energized, but if I had spent the whole day skydiving or racing cars or something like that it won't have the same effect.


...other opinions are still much appreciated (but I'm much more sure now).


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## SQR (Apr 21, 2011)

Wilson said:


> Ok cool, I'm glad to see others relating to it lol. I am excited about future things but when I get there I'm thinking about something else, so I'm not even present enough to enjoy it. I also think that after a day of good conversation... or say I watched a good movie or something, anything interesting... I'll feel really energized, but if I had spent the whole day skydiving or racing cars or something like that it won't have the same effect.
> 
> ...other opinions are still much appreciated (but I'm much more sure now).


That right there is more of an ENTP comment. I can definitely relate to to what you just said about a stimulating convo and good movie. Lol actually i love good movies, especially the ones that i'm in the mood for. I feel incredibly energized afterwards. Spending the _whole_ day doing something like skydiving or racing cars would be fun sure, but it'll definitely tire me out than energize. 

And the small text in your first post lol, says it all. My brain moves faster than the rest of my body as well, and i tend to talk pretty fast. I would try to mimic my friends' speeches sometimes and i realized that they talk incredibly slow, oh wait.

You might be taking it too literally though. Like you may have been living in the midst of Sensors for a prolonged period of time! 
..Or not, but still. The fact that you don't know the clear definition of 'idea' and 'boredom' makes you an ENTP, for the fact that we tend to be so abstract with definition of things. 
Can you relate with this quote?

"when you philosophize yourself into a corner, and your opinions become so abstract and generalized that people tend to mistake you for not having any opinions at all."
_-oneoutside (ENTP)_

We ENTPs often have trouble with realism as well, but hey those 'unrealistic' ideas might be realistic one day. And this uncertainty thing, more of ENTP, i'm honestly pretty indecisive when it comes to things, my mind immediately goes 'what if the other turns out to be useful/correct than the one i chose?' It's likely b/c Si is last.

"when in doubt, you're an ENTP."
_-agokcen (ENTP)_



Wilson said:


> Another thing about Si is that in times of stress I get involuntarily flooded with negative memories. They are about bad things people said to me, negative judgments, etc. This is probably also Fe-related. When not stressed, I rarely recall past experiences, and I definitely don't get flooding of memories. I've only ever seen the negative side of Si, which makes me sure I'm not an SJ (as they have good use of Si, and so would be able to experience it as a positive force). When not stressed, though, I also have some positive Fe which makes me think it's my tertiary, hence ExTP not IxTP. (By contrast, I've seen nothing to indicate inferior Ni, but who knows...)


Definite ENTP. Can also relate. Cuts you up like a sharp blade doesn't it? It's an E thing (Fe). And another thing, the ENTP crowd are generally optimists/optimistic realists (when not stressed/threatened).

MBTI/Kiersey Personality descriptions aren't cookie cutter descriptions. There are multitude of different variables that affects you, that makes you who you are. But that's another discussion altogether.

Hope this helps!


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

SQR said:


> That right there is more of an ENTP comment. I can definitely relate to to what you just said about a stimulating convo and good movie. Lol actually i love good movies, especially the ones that i'm in the mood for. I feel incredibly energized afterwards. Spending the _whole_ day doing something like skydiving or racing cars would be fun sure, but it'll definitely tire me out than energize.
> 
> And the small text in your first post lol, says it all. My brain moves faster than the rest of my body as well, and i tend to talk pretty fast. I would try to mimic my friends' speeches sometimes and i realized that they talk incredibly slow, oh wait.


I talk faster and faster the more enthusiastic/excited I get, but I wonder if that is just an Exxx thing.



> You might be taking it too literally though. Like you may have been living in the midst of Sensors for a prolonged period of time!
> ..Or not, but still. The fact that you don't know the clear definition of 'idea' and 'boredom' makes you an ENTP, for the fact that we tend to be so abstract with definition of things.


I think I've been looking at typology for too long (13 months of obsession now). Which means that over time I've gone more and more in-depth, zooming in. And I can't define things properly usually, because I think of the exceptions.



> Can you relate with this quote?
> 
> "when you philosophize yourself into a corner, and your opinions become so abstract and generalized that people tend to mistake you for not having any opinions at all."
> _-oneoutside (ENTP)_


lol yes... I try to keep things as general as possible to account for as many possibilities as possible (bad sentence!). Generally this means that either my opinions will be meaningless because they are too general, or there are so many qualifiers that the opinion does not apply to anything in reality.



> We ENTPs often have trouble with realism as well, but hey those 'unrealistic' ideas might be realistic one day. And this uncertainty thing, more of ENTP, i'm honestly pretty indecisive when it comes to things, my mind immediately goes 'what if the other turns out to be useful/correct than the one i chose?' It's likely b/c Si is last.


Yeah, same here. I thought it was because we're not directive. It seems that Js and directive types can easily make decisions.



> "when in doubt, you're an ENTP."
> _-agokcen (ENTP)_


I think this was in reference to INTP vs. ENTP haha.



> Definite ENTP. Can also relate. Cuts you up like a sharp blade doesn't it? It's an E thing (Fe). And another thing, the ENTP crowd are generally optimists/optimistic realists (when not stressed/threatened).
> 
> MBTI/Kiersey Personality descriptions aren't cookie cutter descriptions. There are multitude of different variables that affects you, that makes you who you are. But that's another discussion altogether.
> 
> Hope this helps!


Yeah, I would consider myself an optimistic realist. I think I can find my way out of whatever bad situation I encounter, unless I'm stressed, then I start to believe there is no way out. As you said, that does cut.

It does help! Thanks.


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## Branden (Dec 24, 2009)

You're an ENTP. Ne dominates your writing. 

I can see why you may suspect confirmation bias if you have been knee deep in the study of cognitive functions for awhile, but the way you jump around in your text from topic to topic suggests a Ne dominant.


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## SQR (Apr 21, 2011)

Lol i honestly read this thread as ENTP vs. INTP instead of ENTP vs ESTP, my total bads. That pretty much explains the "when in doubt, you're an ENTP."
Thank goodness for the edit button, and rereading things.
But in the same sense, an ESTP wouldn't necessarily be doubting whether they're an Se dominant or Ne, hence why i left the quote there, eheh. 

ESTPs can make decisions easier than ENTPs because they don't spend a lot of time in their head conceptualizing those decisions and just get things done.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

You definitely seem to be ENTP... I can relate to a lot of what you said. It's funny, I can also see a lot of 7 in your writing (Enneatypes are a bit easier for me to spot initially) which, to me, is also a strong indicator of being an ENTP (of course, it's not a defining factor, just a trend). I also agree with SQR about the whole second-guessing, unsureness of your type is also a classic trait of an ENTP; I'd say I've seen a lot of the ENTPs on PerC mention that they were debating their ENTPness at one time or another. I've noticed that the majority of ENTPs are 7w8 or 3w4, so I think that part of your hesitation in deciding for sure you're an ENTP could be because of your 7w6. I am also a 7w6 and find that when it comes to certain things I can be quite atypical compared to many of the 7w8 or 3w4 ENTPs.

Also, I have a feeling that our current paths of both integration/growth (5) and disintegration/stress (1) may affect how MBTI results turn out.


> When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), scattered Sevens suddenly become perfectionistic and critical at One. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), gluttonous, scattered Sevens become more focused and fascinated by life, like healthy Fives.


/2¢


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

SQR said:


> ESTPs can make decisions easier than ENTPs because they don't spend a lot of time in their head conceptualizing those decisions and just get things done.


Probably. SeTi can look like Te when well developed, I think. Thanks for your posts.



possiBri said:


> You definitely seem to be ENTP... I can relate to a lot of what you said. It's funny, I can also see a lot of 7 in your writing (Enneatypes are a bit easier for me to spot initially) which, to me, is also a strong indicator of being an ENTP (of course, it's not a defining factor, just a trend). I also agree with SQR about the whole second-guessing, unsureness of your type is also a classic trait of an ENTP; I'd say I've seen a lot of the ENTPs on PerC mention that they were debating their ENTPness at one time or another. I've noticed that the majority of ENTPs are 7w8 or 3w4, so I think that part of your hesitation in deciding for sure you're an ENTP could be because of your 7w6. I am also a 7w6 and find that when it comes to certain things I can be quite atypical compared to many of the 7w8 or 3w4 ENTPs.


I just changed it to 7w6 today, lol. I thought I was 7w8 for a while, I still might be. I might also have balanced wings (though I've never seen a wingless 7). You make a good point though, Enneagram type probably influences how well I fit MBTI type descriptions.



> Also, I have a feeling that our current paths of both integration/growth (5) and disintegration/stress (1) may affect how MBTI results turn out.


I would like to think I'm becoming more focused and Five-ish but I think it's just that I'm not very extraverted, which reigns in 7 tendencies a bit. Also, I don't relate to the hedonism/sensation seeking parts of 7 descriptions. I seek mental stimulation, which I don't think is pure hedonism. I guess that is related to weaker Se after all.

Thanks for the post


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Wilson said:


> I just changed it to 7w6 today, lol. I thought I was 7w8 for a while, I still might be. I might also have balanced wings (though I've never seen a wingless 7). You make a good point though, Enneagram type probably influences how well I fit MBTI type descriptions.
> 
> I would like to think I'm becoming more focused and Five-ish but I think it's just that I'm not very extraverted, which reigns in 7 tendencies a bit. Also, I don't relate to the hedonism/sensation seeking parts of 7 descriptions. I seek mental stimulation, which I don't think is pure hedonism. I guess that is related to weaker Se after all.


Yeah, I had been struggling with identifying my wing because I have traits of both, but I definitely resonate more with the 6 wing, even though I feel like I've dialed back my "entertainer" in me. As far as the five-ish tendencies, I'd also like to believe that I'm growing and that is why I've become much more introverted in the past year and a half or so (in fact I've tested as INTP several times)... but you're right, it could totally just be that we are both only mildly extroverted. I've definitely always been more interested in mental stimulation which, for me, is pretty equally distributed between experiential and observational situations.

I'm curious, do you get irritated when a friend pushes you to be social when you don't want to be? A good friend of mine who just recently became my roommate is constantly talking about how he wants me to go with him out to a bar or something... and that is just not my style. I like hanging out at a friend's house if I'm going to be social. I don't really care to be in crowds, either. So it drives me nuts when he keeps bugging me to go out and do something I don't want to do... but I feel like I probably should, just to exercise my E -- I've become very stubborn and resistant to this though lol. It's variations like this within in our types that I really find fascinating!


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

possiBri said:


> Yeah, I had been struggling with identifying my wing because I have traits of both, but I definitely resonate more with the 6 wing, even though I feel like I've dialed back my "entertainer" in me. As far as the five-ish tendencies, I'd also like to believe that I'm growing and that is why I've become much more introverted in the past year and a half or so (in fact I've tested as INTP several times)... but you're right, it could totally just be that we are both only mildly extroverted. I've definitely always been more interested in mental stimulation which, for me, is pretty equally distributed between experiential and observational situations.


Well if you've actually become more introverted, then I would say you are growing. Personally I haven't really become more introverted, I'm just not very E to begin with.



> I'm curious, do you get irritated when a friend pushes you to be social when you don't want to be? A good friend of mine who just recently became my roommate is constantly talking about how he wants me to go with him out to a bar or something... and that is just not my style. I like hanging out at a friend's house if I'm going to be social. I don't really care to be in crowds, either. So it drives me nuts when he keeps bugging me to go out and do something I don't want to do... but I feel like I probably should, just to exercise my E -- I've become very stubborn and resistant to this though lol. It's variations like this within in our types that I really find fascinating!


Yeah, that annoys me. I have social moods often enough that I don't need to be pushed when I am in a solitary mood. Smaller groups are better, the conversation actually has a chance to be worthwhile, unlike in a crowd.

Recently I've had a problem with an annoying friend who always wants to meet up with me. I keep saying no or avoiding him, but he thinks it's because I don't want to 'experience new things'. That's not true. In fact, he is the problem, but of course he won't consider that. Really, I like people! Just not ones that have proven themselves boring and/or irritating. lol.


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## Yves (May 11, 2011)

Wilson said:


> I'm concerned with N/S due to the large # of N/S mistypings on forums. I really relate a lot to ENTPs but I think there are a few 'weak spots' so to speak, where I don't fit the type... (Disjointed paragraphs coming up!)
> 
> (Edit: you can suggest any type, not just the ETPs, if another seems to fit better.)
> 
> ...


Wilson, you sound like you're NFJ.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Yves said:


> Wilson, you sound like you're NFJ.


Wow, ok. Where do you see Ni? My Fe is not very strong, either, but at least it's present unlike Ni!

Edit: I don't relate to INJs at all -- Ni is the function most foreign to me, (Fi is a close second, though I know NFJs don't use Fi). They don't even make sense when I read descriptions of them. I understand that Ni is often not visible to INJs, but it would be to ENJs. That seems to rule out ENFJ. INFJ is actually possible, because I relate to the Fe function attitude, but not very much. I relate to bits of it, here and there. It's sometimes observable and I usually override it. I doubt it's my primary judging function.

If this is because I thank people a lot... well, that's actually in hopes they will feel like they are helping and give me more input.

Edit edit: I just read some posts by Ni dominants who say they have a hard time putting their thoughts into words. I can't relate to that at all (like most of what is said about Ni). I think in words some/most of the time, but whenever I don't, it's very easy for me to 'translate' the thought into words. I can do that so quickly I don't even notice the delay.


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## Yves (May 11, 2011)

Wilson said:


> If this is because I thank people a lot... well, that's actually in hopes they will feel like they are helping and give me more input.


Hahaha, that tickles me pink! But no, it has nothing to do with thanking people a lot.

Having looked over this thread again, I'm undecided. The basic difference is that NFJs' greatest strength is guiding and developing people. ENTPs' greatest strength is developing new ideas to improve reality. It's whatever you gravitate toward naturally.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Yves said:


> Hahaha, that tickles me pink! But no, it has nothing to do with thanking people a lot.
> 
> Having looked over this thread again, I'm undecided. The basic difference is that NFJs' greatest strength is guiding and developing people. ENTPs' greatest strength is developing new ideas to improve reality. It's whatever you gravitate toward naturally.


I don't help people. I am very selfish. Though I've improved at dealing with interpersonal situations in recent years. I'm 20, so that's probably due to tertiary development of Fe. I have not become "more logical" or whatever might happen with Ti tertiary development.

If I try to implement a new idea, the first consideration is that it's interesting to me, and I have something to gain from it. If there is a benefit to others at all, I will use that as a selling point if I have to get someone else to bite, but I don't really care about it.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Wilson said:


> I don't help people. I am very selfish. Though I've improved at dealing with interpersonal situations in recent years. I'm 20, so that's probably due to tertiary development of Fe. I have not become "more logical" or whatever might happen with Ti tertiary development.
> 
> If I try to implement a new idea, the first consideration is that it's interesting to me, and I have something to gain from it. If there is a benefit to others at all, I will use that as a selling point if I have to get someone else to bite, but I don't really care about it.


Interesting... I feel like I'm some weird hybrid of what you said and what @Yves said because I can totally relate to needing an idea to be interesting to me for me to be able to even work with a new idea (or if I don't find it interesting it's like pulling teeth), but I also enjoy helping people and sometimes I just get the random urge to assist someone. I don't always end up helping a person, but I almost always at least offer to help. What I think is funny is that this mood strikes me at seemingly random times; I just suddenly become overwhelmed with the feeling like I need to offer my assistance. I have noticed, though, that because my need to help is so selective that I only want to help people in ways that either a)I know for sure I can help, or b)am excited for the challenge of helping someone who appeared like/thought that they couldn't be helped.

edit: btw, I think that my "need to help" could be related to my 3w2 which is the second position in my trifix.


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, why don't you think you're an ENFP, perhaps?


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

noexcuses said:


> Just out of curiosity, why don't you think you're an ENFP, perhaps?


It's something I've considered and struggled with for a while, but I've determined that my preferences still lie with ENTP. A very good friend of mine who is MBTI certified also had a session with me and what I found funny was that I tested as INTP but after we discussed each of the cognitive functions in depth I had no doubt in my mind I was ENTP (though I may have a somewhat weak E). What was cool was we went through a booklet that explained/described/compared each of the different functions, and since I was sure about ExNP I mostly focused on the T vs. F info. The traits listed for T resonated with me much more than the F.

T:
objective
cause-effect logic
*clarity* -- this is a big one for me
analytical
problem 1st/people 2nd
critique
justice

F:
subjective
person-centered values -- this isn't really me at all, my values come from my Ti
harmony
circumstantial
people 1st/problem 2nd
appreciate
mercy

I can honestly say that I still feel pretty torn re-reading this list since I feel pretty balanced between them, but that need for clarity really hit me the very first time I read it -- especially when I compared it to the F's need for harmony. I am definitely one who avoids confrontation and seeks unity, but I prefer clarity over harmony every time. I guess that was pretty much what really sealed the deal for me. That and talking to others here on PerC and getting their opinion based on my posts and stuff.

edit: another thing that really hit home for me was this distinction

T -- Driven to be right and answer the question: Is it true or false?
F -- Driven to be harmonious with important values and answer the question: Is it good or bad?

I definitely relate much more to the T statement... I really hate the labels "good" and "bad" and see them as extremely subjective terms. I prefer to look at everything as a learning experience.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

possiBri said:


> Interesting... I feel like I'm some weird hybrid of what you said and what @_Yves_ said because I can totally relate to needing an idea to be interesting to me for me to be able to even work with a new idea (or if I don't find it interesting it's like pulling teeth), but I also enjoy helping people and sometimes I just get the random urge to assist someone. I don't always end up helping a person, but I almost always at least offer to help. What I think is funny is that this mood strikes me at seemingly random times; I just suddenly become overwhelmed with the feeling like I need to offer my assistance. I have noticed, though, that because my need to help is so selective that I only want to help people in ways that either a)I know for sure I can help, or b)am excited for the challenge of helping someone who appeared like/thought that they couldn't be helped.
> 
> edit: btw, I think that my "need to help" could be related to my 3w2 which is the second position in my trifix.


Yeah, I will help someone, but if the situation has potential to be interesting. I'll try to think of a few possible solutions to someone else's problem, but only if it's somewhat engaging. The thing you said about the challenge makes sense too. The rest might indeed have to do with your enneagram type, but I don't know of course.



noexcuses said:


> Just out of curiosity, why don't you think you're an ENFP, perhaps?


I cannot make sense of Fi, no matter how many descriptions I read. It sounds completely foreign. In recent years, I have noticed development of Fe, not Te. ETA: I often like to fight, argue, cause conflict and chaos. I almost thrive off conflict and have no need to smooth things over, especially if said smoothing is at the expense of getting a problem solved. My parents are ENFP and ESFJ; growing up, they were always trying to maintain harmony in our house, and I would keep disrupting it by bringing up the problems they were trying to sweep under the rug. That said, ENFP and INTP are probably my 'cousin' types.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

I just found a really helpful (for me, at least) definition of Fi:



> "Introverted Feeling ... encourages a personal relationship to an evolving pattern, a will to gauge the situation by an experiential ideal. For example, if we use Introverted Feeling to make a good spaghetti sauce, we won't follow recipes or measure ingredients. We'll sample the sauce as we're making it, gauging its taste, smell, and texture by their ideal outcome and adjusting for circumstantial variables so the emerging pattern stays on track."





> Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude of judging things good or bad based on how they harmonize or clash with a living being's inner essence. That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul. It is known by attending to one's own emotions in response to things. What you like is good--for you, not necessarily good for others. What you don't like is bad--for you, not necessarily bad for others. Anything outside your own soul is irrelevant to evaluating anything or choosing your course in life.


These were just from a random search and I don't know how accurate they are, but if they are they definitely helped me understand it a bit better. I already knew it had to do with a personal values system, but I think the spaghetti sauce analogy really kinda put it all together.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

For what it's worth, I always had this intuition that N and F go together in the same manner in which S and T go together. But then again, I formulate concepts in my head in a wordless way and it often comes out incomprehensible to other people when I try to explain it. One thing I've noticed, and I wonder if any other ENTPs have as well, is that it's difficult to communicate properly sometimes because having to explain it makes you backtrack so far in the thought process that it feels meaningless to try to convey what you're thinking. I bring that up because of all the discussion about ideas in this thread and I'm of the belief that there really is no such thing as a discrete "idea" that exists on it's own.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

possiBri said:


> I just found a really helpful (for me, at least) definition of Fi:
> 
> These were just from a random search and I don't know how accurate they are, but if they are they definitely helped me understand it a bit better. I already knew it had to do with a personal values system, but I think the spaghetti sauce analogy really kinda put it all together.


Thanks for that. I can see the spaghetti thing now. I had seen the "soul" definition before, but the "essence" things confused me. I think I can see how it works, but I'm definitely not an FP, lol.


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

Following up, which is more important to you -

Integrity
Comprehension


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Hmmm tough call, but I'm gonna have to go with comprehension... integrity isn't far behind, I just value the ability to understand a bit more.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

noexcuses said:


> Following up, which is more important to you -
> 
> Integrity
> Comprehension


How do you mean?

Integrity from Merriam Webster:


> Definition of INTEGRITY
> 1 adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
> 2 an unimpaired condition : soundness
> 3 the quality or state of being complete or undivided :


I can't say I care much about that. I don't really have 'values' or some kind of 'ethical code'. Perhaps something like the golden rule, at best, but I've violated even that and I don't care.

Comprehension
I want to get my point across -- have other people comprehend my points/ideas and not misunderstand what I'm saying.
But more than that, it's important to me to understand things fully, or at least as much as possible. How things work (usually nonphysical things/systems).


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

I think you could be ENTP, and since I have absolutely no Se I really can't say how much of this could relate to it. But I can definitely agree with your posts. You seem very mature compared to most of the ENTPs on the forums. Also, I'm going to take this time to say that your picture makes me go *squee!* xD The name-picture combination is just too adorable!


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

Well, this certainly demonstrates why typing is hard online. Although both answers are ENTPish, I can't say that with any definite certainty. There are just too many other answers that "don't ring true" as it is. Confirmation bias is definitely hard to get past, after all.

Here's my experience -

Ne - I don't even notice this. Couldn't tell you what it's like. I don't look for possibilities - they're just there. "Maybe" gets me excited.
Ti - I don't use impersonal logic to solve problems (that's what Ne does). I use impersonal logic to restrain and check _myself_. I use it to judge my choices.
Fe - Interpersonal signals are my greatest source of vulnerability - for both my greatest joys and most crushing defeats
Si - I both want to be part of the establishment and chafe at the seeming illogic of what comprises that which is established

Ni - I can't tell you why your idea will work, but I can tell you a million reasons why it won't work
Te - I hate being told what to do, but if your wheels are spinning, and I'm annoyed, I'll be able to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it
Fi - I'm really bad at giving unsolicited advice, and I justify it because "that's what friends are for"
Se - Frustration leads to acting out and potentially violence

Hope that helps.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

hziegel said:


> I think you could be ENTP, and since I have absolutely no Se I really can't say how much of this could relate to it. But I can definitely agree with your posts. You seem very mature compared to most of the ENTPs on the forums. Also, I'm going to take this time to say that your picture makes me go *squee!* xD The name-picture combination is just too adorable!


Yep, I relate to your posts too. Hell, I relate to almost every post in the ENTP section, some of them I don't, but I guess that's typical.

I don't know about being mature, lol but thanks. I tend to think twice before hitting "submit post" which might make it seem like I think things out more. (IRL when I'm talking to people, there is no preview, so things can get disastrous quickly...) I also grew up with an ESFJ mother, I had to walk on eggshells around her, so I probably developed more Fe earlier. My Fe may not be all that weak now that I think of it, but it has a vulnerable, immature quality rather than more mature FJ Fe.

Haha Wilson is great! :laughing:




noexcuses said:


> There are just too many other answers that "don't ring true" as it is


What might those be?



> Ne - I don't even notice this. Couldn't tell you what it's like. I don't look for possibilities - they're just there. "Maybe" gets me excited.


I don't actively search for possibilities either, they just jump into my head. Same for analogies and 'connections'. They are just there, I don't have to try to generate them. I think this is regular dominant function invisibility though.



> Ti - I don't use impersonal logic to solve problems (that's what Ne does). I use impersonal logic to restrain and check _myself_. I use it to judge my choices.


To me, Ne generates possible solutions in large numbers... but it takes Ti to choose/decide which solution is the best one. Or which projects/ideas are the most worthwhile to pursue. I use it to _make_ my choices, though it's probably responsible for judgment of past decisions as well (if I ever think about the past -- pretty rare TBH).

Thanks for your comments, but I'm really not sure where you're seeing Fi and Te (if you still think I'm ENFP that is).


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

Things that seem "off"



Wilson said:


> Well if you've actually become more introverted, then I would say you are growing. Personally I haven't really become more introverted, I'm just not very E to begin with.


How do you define extraversion compared to introversion? That may be what's throwing me for a loop, after all.



> Yeah, that annoys me. I have social moods often enough that I don't need to be pushed when I am in a solitary mood. Smaller groups are better, the conversation actually has a chance to be worthwhile, unlike in a crowd.


Same here. That's more of an introverted position. What's more typical of NeTi would be either that they'll still go out because "something cool could happen", or they won't because they're too engrossed in something else, and don't want to be bothered. There's no real sense of a "social" vs. "non-social" mood, because recognizing that would involve Si to a certain extent.



Wilson said:


> Wow, ok. Where do you see Ni? My Fe is not very strong, either, but at least it's present unlike Ni!
> 
> Edit: I don't relate to INJs at all -- Ni is the function most foreign to me, (Fi is a close second, though I know NFJs don't use Fi). They don't even make sense when I read descriptions of them. I understand that Ni is often not visible to INJs, but it would be to ENJs. That seems to rule out ENFJ. INFJ is actually possible, because I relate to the Fe function attitude, but not very much. I relate to bits of it, here and there. It's sometimes observable and I usually override it. I doubt it's my primary judging function.


I'm actually starting to wonder if you're not NiFe, primarily in an Ni-Ti orientation.



> If this is because I thank people a lot... well, that's actually in hopes they will feel like they are helping and give me more input.


That's another one that doesn't quite ring true for NeTi - having the presence of mind to actually thank people for good posts instead of just moving on.



> Edit edit: I just read some posts by Ni dominants who say they have a hard time putting their thoughts into words. I can't relate to that at all (like most of what is said about Ni). I think in words some/most of the time, but whenever I don't, it's very easy for me to 'translate' the thought into words. I can do that so quickly I don't even notice the delay.


This is the big one for me that gives pause. NeTi is TERRIBLE at translating its thoughts into coherent English on the fly, especially given the significant weaknesses in Si, Te and Se. An ENTP can be a fast-talker, but that's usually only when Ne and Fe are fully flexing, which isn't necessarily all that often (very rare in younger people).



Wilson said:


> I don't help people. I am very selfish. Though I've improved at dealing with interpersonal situations in recent years. I'm 20, so that's probably due to tertiary development of Fe. I have not become "more logical" or whatever might happen with Ti tertiary development.


Your secondary is developing at that age. Meanwhile, tertiary Fe is "childish" in that it doesn't think anything negative about itself. ENTPs don't generally think of themselves as selfish, even when acting in completely self-centered ways. There's always a justification for it.

It sounds more like that you've been getting your secondary Fe to kick in, while tertiary Ti is still a few years to come.



> If I try to implement a new idea, the first consideration is that it's interesting to me, and I have something to gain from it. If there is a benefit to others at all, I will use that as a selling point if I have to get someone else to bite, but I don't really care about it.


This also doesn't seem quite right - usually, the only consideration in an Ne dominant is that it seems like a good idea at the time.



Wilson said:


> Yeah, I will help someone, but if the situation has potential to be interesting. I'll try to think of a few possible solutions to someone else's problem, but only if it's somewhat engaging. The thing you said about the challenge makes sense too. The rest might indeed have to do with your enneagram type, but I don't know of course.


That's another big difference - possiBri's describing tertiary Fe almost perfectly there. She wants to help to prove that she's a "good girl," and she wants to make sure of it by playing to her strengths. That "suddenly becoming overwhelmed" is the Fi shadow manifesting.



> I cannot make sense of Fi, no matter how many descriptions I read. It sounds completely foreign. In recent years, I have noticed development of Fe, not Te. ETA: I often like to fight, argue, cause conflict and chaos. I almost thrive off conflict and have no need to smooth things over, especially if said smoothing is at the expense of getting a problem solved. My parents are ENFP and ESFJ; growing up, they were always trying to maintain harmony in our house, and I would keep disrupting it by bringing up the problems they were trying to sweep under the rug. That said, ENFP and INTP are probably my 'cousin' types.


Why did you bring those issues up?

Hope this helps


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

hziegel said:


> Also, I'm going to take this time to say that your picture makes me go *squee!* xD The name-picture combination is just too adorable!


HAHAHA I totally have the same reaction every time...



noexcuses said:


> Same here. That's more of an introverted position. What's more typical of NeTi would be either that they'll still go out because "something cool could happen", or they won't because they're too engrossed in something else, and don't want to be bothered. There's no real sense of a "social" vs. "non-social" mood, because recognizing that would involve Si to a certain extent.


Ummmm... ENTPs can use Si, so I don't see your point?



noexcuses said:


> That's another one that doesn't quite ring true for NeTi - having the presence of mind to actually thank people for good posts instead of just moving on.


Again, I don't understand why? Just because it's not "the norm" doesn't mean that NeTi wouldn't still do that... I am extremely appreciative of people and I want them to know it because I was raised on the Golden Rule and it's always worked for me. I know I overdo it with the thanks sometimes, but I don't see that as being un-NeTi... if I thanked a post it's because it made me laugh, informed me, or made me think -- so why would that be uncharacteristic?



noexcuses said:


> That's another big difference - possiBri's describing tertiary Fe almost perfectly there. She wants to help to prove that she's a "good girl," and she wants to make sure of it by playing to her strengths. That "suddenly becoming overwhelmed" is the Fi shadow manifesting.


lol no... that's not how I meant. I HATE the stereotypical "good girl" -- I like helping either because it genuinely makes me feel good (like helping someone locate a song they've been looking for by lyrics alone) or because I want to prove to others (and myself) that I am capable -- I've always hated the stereotypes of females being less capable and I've always done my best to avoid it. Like I said, I like the challenge that some assistance brings. The idea of "good girl" means I'm doing it for approval and to be liked... I don't care so much if people like me so much as they give me a chance, and hear me out before they make up their mind about me or my ideas. You were definitely right about wanting to play to my strengths though... I'm much more apprehensive in new situations or ones where I am not confident in my abilities, or in my abilities to pick up on something quickly.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

noexcuses said:


> How do you define extraversion compared to introversion? That may be what's throwing me for a loop, after all.


Energized by engagement w/ the external world vs. the internal world.



> Same here. That's more of an introverted position. What's more typical of NeTi would be either that they'll still go out because "something cool could happen", or they won't because they're too engrossed in something else, and don't want to be bothered. There's no real sense of a "social" vs. "non-social" mood, because recognizing that would involve Si to a certain extent.


So ENTPs never get depressed? (The worse it is the less social I am. Which in turn makes it worse.)



> I'm actually starting to wonder if you're not NiFe, primarily in an Ni-Ti orientation.


This is possible. Except I don't have Ni. Maybe I'm Si-Ti, ISFJ. I would believe that more.



> That's another one that doesn't quite ring true for NeTi - having the presence of mind to actually thank people for good posts instead of just moving on.


I'm not thanking them because the post is good. As I said in the post you quoted.



> *This is the big one for me that gives pause. NeTi is TERRIBLE at translating its thoughts into coherent English on the fly,* especially given the significant weaknesses in Si, Te and Se. An ENTP can be a fast-talker, but that's usually only when Ne and Fe are fully flexing, which isn't necessarily all that often (very rare in younger people).


RE: bolded. What about ENTPs being 'famous' for debating? Verbal sparring? How do you debate well if you can't talk coherently?



> Your secondary is developing at that age. Meanwhile, tertiary Fe is "childish" in that it doesn't think anything negative about itself. ENTPs don't generally think of themselves as selfish, even when acting in completely self-centered ways. There's always a justification for it.


Of course there's a rationalization. Just because I'm aware of my innate selfishness doesn't mean I have a problem with it. I am not aiming to change, either. So I guess what you're saying is that ENTPs are not very aware of their tendencies.



> It sounds more like that you've been getting your secondary Fe to kick in, while tertiary Ti is still a few years to come.


If my tertiary Ti is "still a few years to come", how can I be in an Ni-Ti loop?



> This also doesn't seem quite right - usually, the only consideration in an Ne dominant is that it seems like a good idea at the time.


Huh. So ENPs don't have any judgment? No foresight? Really? I doubt that.



> That's another big difference - possiBri's describing tertiary Fe almost perfectly there. She wants to help to prove that she's a "good girl," and she wants to make sure of it by playing to her strengths. That "suddenly becoming overwhelmed" is the Fi shadow manifesting.


Right, so wanting intellectual stimulation -- wanting things to be interesting because of Ne -- is evidence that I don't have Ne. This is enlightening.



> Why did you bring those issues up?


In response to you.

_I cannot make sense of Fi, no matter how many descriptions I read. It sounds completely foreign. In recent years, I have noticed development of Fe, not Te._

Because you said I was ENFP.

_ETA: I often like to fight, argue, cause conflict and chaos. I almost thrive off conflict and have no need to smooth things over, especially if said smoothing is at the expense of getting a problem solved. My parents are ENFP and ESFJ; growing up, they were always trying to maintain harmony in our house, and I would keep disrupting it by bringing up the problems they were trying to sweep under the rug._

I've never heard an F type say they like conflict. They prefer to harmonize. You were suggesting I was ENFP, so I brought this up to explain why F is unlikely.

_That said, ENFP and INTP are probably my 'cousin' types._

Just extra information.


I'd like to know where you see Ni?


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Wait, NeTi terrible for translating thoughts? When did this happen? ENTPs are supposed to be able to use speech to bullshit their way out of anything, and always win debates, and be natural leaders? I think someone's getting us confused with Sensors.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

possiBri said:


> if I thanked a post it's because it made me laugh, informed me, or made me think -- so why would that be uncharacteristic?


Yeah, I thank posts (in other threads, here I just want input lol) for those reasons too. Also if the person posted what I wanted to, it saves me time/energy, so I thank them.

I also take on challenges simply to prove my own competence to myself. lol.

ETA:



hziegel said:


> Wait, NeTi terrible for translating thoughts? When did this happen? ENTPs are supposed to be able to use speech to bullshit their way out of anything, and always win debates, and be natural leaders? I think someone's getting us confused with Sensors.


Oh yeah, we are expert bullshitters. The lies I have told...

I'd say the same is true of ESTPs though, after all they are the stereotypical salesman. Can't sell if you are incoherent.

ETA 2: I can translate very quickly, as in, there is no delay. That doesn't mean that I won't start rambling, leaving stuff out, repeating myself, going off on a million tangents... but when I concentrate, I can definitely speak well.


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

possiBri said:


> Ummmm... ENTPs can use Si, so I don't see your point?


It's inferior. It's specifically the part of our thinking that we simply don't get, but furthermore, know that we don't get it, and get frustrated that others value it. Si thus has negative connotations within ourselves, because its manifestations point out our inferiorities, rather than interest or bore us. At our best, we accept that we are inferior in the ways that Si points out, rather than try to fight against it, and use Fe to get help.



> Again, I don't understand why? Just because it's not "the norm" doesn't mean that NeTi wouldn't still do that... I am extremely appreciative of people and I want them to know it because I was raised on the Golden Rule and it's always worked for me. I know I overdo it with the thanks sometimes, but I don't see that as being un-NeTi... if I thanked a post it's because it made me laugh, informed me, or made me think -- so why would that be uncharacteristic?


That's much more Fe than anything, and yes, I think you are an ENTP who exercises a lot of Fe. That seems to be typical in women, too.



> lol no... that's not how I meant. I HATE the stereotypical "good girl" -- I like helping either because it genuinely makes me feel good (like helping someone locate a song they've been looking for by lyrics alone) or because I want to prove to others (and myself) that I am capable. Like I said, I like the challenge that some assistance brings. The idea of "good girl" means I'm doing it for approval and to be liked... I don't care so much if people like me so much as they give me a chance, and hear me out before they make up their mind about me.


Hating the typical stereotypical "good girl" - what FeSi manifests as (compared to the ISFJ, who _is_ the stereotypical good girl). At the same time, you say that it genuinely makes you feel good.

I'm not saying that you want to be thought of as _the_ good girl. I'm saying that you do this because you want to be thought of as _a_ good girl, valuable just for who you are. You demonstrate that by exercising your strengths. It doesn't matter if the other person likes you, but it absolutely does matter whether or not they think your presence is worthwhile. If they don't, that raises a fairly nasty reaction within you, doesn't it?


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

noexcuses said:


> It's inferior. It's specifically the part of our thinking that we simply don't get, but furthermore, know that we don't get it, and get frustrated that others value it. Si thus has negative connotations within ourselves, because its manifestations point out our inferiorities, rather than interest or bore us. At our best, we accept that we are inferior in the ways that Si points out, rather than try to fight against it, and use Fe to get help.


I guess I'm just weird then... because I'm pretty sure my Si is pretty well developed because I use past experience to relate to things in the present all the time and I constantly hear/see things and it's like my brain immediately compares it with past memories and I often see similarities in things that most people don't notice until I point it out. I am very keen to notice differences in things... maybe I'm misunderstanding what Si is? Or maybe I'm just more balanced in that regard?




noexcuses said:


> That's much more Fe than anything, and yes, I think you are an ENTP who exercises a lot of Fe. That seems to be typical in women, too.


Totally. I think a lot of it has to do with having an INFJ for a mother...




noexcuses said:


> Hating the typical stereotypical "good girl" - what FeSi manifests as (compared to the ISFJ, who _is_ the stereotypical good girl). At the same time, you say that it genuinely makes you feel good.
> 
> I'm not saying that you want to be thought of as _the_ good girl. I'm saying that you do this because you want to be thought of as _a_ good girl, valuable just for who you are. You demonstrate that by exercising your strengths. It doesn't matter if the other person likes you, but it absolutely does matter whether or not they think your presence is worthwhile. If they don't, that raises a fairly nasty reaction within you, doesn't it?


YEAH, you hit the nail on the head... I totally misunderstood you the first time, my bad =] Thanks for the insight, though, seriously... I love getting other's opinions on this stuff because I'm constantly second guessing and re-analyzing stuff.


Ok, sorry Wilson, I feel like I sorta hijacked your thread there... I'm done being a thread terrorist for now :wink:


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## noexcuses (Aug 5, 2009)

Wilson said:


> Energized by engagement w/ the external world vs. the internal world.
> 
> So ENTPs never get depressed? (The worse it is the less social I am. Which in turn makes it worse.)


Sure they do. In my experience, though, the depression manifests more in continually going out and feeling unsatisfied rather than not wanting to go out at all.



> This is possible. Except I don't have Ni. Maybe I'm Si-Ti, ISFJ. I would believe that more.


Maybe. Still, the "not understanding" part is what intrigues me about Ni. 



> I'm not thanking them because the post is good. As I said in the post you quoted.
> 
> RE: bolded. What about ENTPs being 'famous' for debating? Verbal sparring? How do you debate well if you can't talk coherently


Because there are no thoughts involved whatsoever when you're doing it. That's why it's "bullshitting." You're just talking; you're not consciously communicating in any real way. You're trying to establish dominance over the other person, rather than connect with them.



> Of course there's a rationalization. Just because I'm aware of my innate selfishness doesn't mean I have a problem with it. I am not aiming to change, either. So I guess what you're saying is that ENTPs are not very aware of their tendencies.


Yup. Awful at it. Huge ego block. Runs counter to the hope that anything is possible.



> If my tertiary Ti is "still a few years to come", how can I be in an Ni-Ti loop?


Tertiary development means that you start viewing that function as valuable in and of itself, and not as a means of justifying the dominant's view. It's powerful enough to have an equal seat at the table, so to speak, rather than conform to the wishes of the dominant.



> Huh. So ENPs don't have any judgment? No foresight? Really? I doubt that.


Not a whole lot. At least until the secondary develops all the way, or if you're caught in a depressive slump where you're constantly inhibited by the inferior.



> Right, so wanting intellectual stimulation -- wanting things to be interesting because of Ne -- is evidence that I don't have Ne. This is enlightening.


No. Ne means you find intellectual stimulation regardless of you wanting it. It's the distractable nature of it. You don't solely help your friends with interesting things: it's just that the things you help your friends with are the interesting ones, and the boring ones, well, you're just not very helpful with. If you feel like there's any sense of volition involved with it, it's not your dominant function.



> In response to you.


Why did you bring _those_ issues up to your parents? Why didn't you let them slide? Type comes from motivations and priorities.



> _I cannot make sense of Fi, no matter how many descriptions I read. It sounds completely foreign. In recent years, I have noticed development of Fe, not Te._
> 
> Because you said I was ENFP.


Never said it, merely suggested it as a possibility. It's not the case, it looks like.



> _ETA: I often like to fight, argue, cause conflict and chaos. I almost thrive off conflict and have no need to smooth things over, especially if said smoothing is at the expense of getting a problem solved. My parents are ENFP and ESFJ; growing up, they were always trying to maintain harmony in our house, and I would keep disrupting it by bringing up the problems they were trying to sweep under the rug._
> 
> I've never heard an F type say they like conflict. They prefer to harmonize. You were suggesting I was ENFP, so I brought this up to explain why F is unlikely.


ENFPs like to fight if they believe the cause is right. That's why I asked why you disrupted harmony in those situations. ENFPs chafe against external harmony if their internal balance suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.



> _That said, ENFP and INTP are probably my 'cousin' types._
> 
> Just extra information.
> 
> ...


Nowhere, actually. Sorry, just poking at you there, seeing what resulted.



hziegel said:


> Wait, NeTi terrible for translating thoughts? When did this happen? ENTPs are supposed to be able to use speech to bullshit their way out of anything, and always win debates, and be natural leaders? I think someone's getting us confused with Sensors.


Bullshitting. Always _think_ they've won the debate, but unfortunately, often lose the election. Reluctant leaders (ENTJs are the natural leaders).

All these things come down to ENTPs' biggest issue: communicating what they truly think and feel. Find the smoothest-talking one you know, and try to get her to talk about deep things, important things. Likely, the question of what is "important" to her is an almost alien one.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

That sounds pretty bias. ENTPs still have a tertiary Fe after all. We are capable of sharing emotions and understanding feelings. It's just not first nature.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

noexcuses said:


> Sure they do. In my experience, though, the depression manifests more in continually going out and feeling unsatisfied rather than not wanting to go out at all.


And surely everyone's like you. :wink:



> Maybe. Still, the "not understanding" part is what intrigues me about Ni.
> 
> Because there are no thoughts involved whatsoever when you're doing it. That's why it's "bullshitting." You're just talking; you're not consciously communicating in any real way. You're trying to establish dominance over the other person, rather than connect with them.


No thoughts? Lying requires one to be consistent. It's basically acting. To your point though, I find I'm better at it than telling the truth, being honest about something substantial. I can't do that. But the communication is definitely conscious, it's done with full intent, to get my desired outcome.



> Yup. Awful at it. Huge ego block. Runs counter to the hope that anything is possible.


Maybe _you_ lack self-awareness, not all ENTPs.



> Tertiary development means that you start viewing that function as valuable in and of itself, and not as a means of justifying the dominant's view. It's powerful enough to have an equal seat at the table, so to speak, rather than conform to the wishes of the dominant.


Which explains why I still see Fe as a means to manipulate people and get them to bite on my ideas, and also why I think Ti is intrinsically valuable.



> Not a whole lot. At least until the secondary develops all the way, or if you're caught in a depressive slump where you're constantly inhibited by the inferior.


Ok then.



> No. Ne means you find intellectual stimulation regardless of you wanting it. It's the distractable nature of it. You don't solely help your friends with interesting things: it's just that the things you help your friends with are the interesting ones, and the boring ones, well, you're just not very helpful with. If you feel like there's any sense of volition involved with it, it's not your dominant function.


This is actually a good point. I don't choose things based on how stimulating they are. I just realized that. If asked to help with a dull problem, my responses will be useless, and I'll probably start thinking about something else. This is a great point.



> Why did you bring _those_ issues up to your parents? Why didn't you let them slide? Type comes from motivations and priorities.


Oh that's what you meant. Without getting specific, I couldn't let my mom hold ignorant/incorrect views... not very explanatory but I'm not going to say more.



> Never said it, merely suggested it as a possibility. It's not the case, it looks like.
> 
> ENFPs like to fight if they believe the cause is right. That's why I asked why you disrupted harmony in those situations. ENFPs chafe against external harmony if their internal balance suggests that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
> 
> Nowhere, actually. Sorry, just poking at you there, seeing what resulted.


Uh huh. So your vote is for ISFJ?



> Bullshitting. Always _think_ they've won the debate, but unfortunately, often lose the election. Reluctant leaders (ENTJs are the natural leaders).
> 
> All these things come down to ENTPs' biggest issue: communicating what they truly think and feel. Find the smoothest-talking one you know, and try to get her to talk about deep things, important things. Likely, the question of what is "important" to her is an almost alien one.


This is one way I lack self-awareness, for sure. I tried to do a video for the video thread but I couldn't answer questions really, I would just say the first half-true thing that came to mind. I can think of multiple responses, but I don't know if they're true, and none of them seem to "resonate". Even for things about me. Things most people seem to know the answer to.

Actually I'm still doing that right now. I'm still saying the first thing that comes to mind, and I've been doing that for the whole thread. :crazy:


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm sold on ISFJ. I have probably been in my shadow for most of my life, but that would explain... some things.

ETA: I can't change my type because it's forcing me to list gender, but I would be lying, so I'm not going to list it.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Wilson said:


> I'm sold on ISFJ. I have probably been in my shadow for most of my life, but that would explain... some things.


Explains why you're so cool heheh. Congrats?


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

hziegel said:


> Explains why you're so cool heheh. Congrats?


 lol...

Well I'm not sure of ISFJ, it's the next best explanation though, because at least it allows for me to be lost in my shadow.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Wilson said:


> lol...
> 
> Well I'm not sure of ISFJ, it's the next best explanation though, because at least it allows for me to be lost in my shadow.


It's pretty damn unusual to be 100% lost in your shadow functions, but it can happen. I've been about 75% in mine up until recently.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

hziegel said:


> It's pretty damn unusual to be 100% lost in your shadow functions, but it can happen. I've been about 75% in mine up until recently.


Wow, well I'm glad you are out of that.

I could be ESFJ.


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## Phoenix (Sep 4, 2009)

Wilson said:


> I do want to improve the way things are (I like to suggest fixes even if it "ain't broke") but there has to be some semblance of realism in an idea, eg. it has to be physically possible, to be useful/implementable. Much of what I come up with is useless crap.
> 
> If I were speaking this out loud I would be going so fast, tripping over my words because my brain is obviously running faster than my hands/mouth, as it usually does. I mean, I think you can get a feel for how fast I would be speaking at times lol. I'd be almost interrupting myself, where I cut off a thought to branch off into another one because... I guess that's just how fast my brain runs. No, I have not had caffeine.


You are sooooooooooo not an ESTP; even I can tell you that much. You don't give off an SP vibe in the least. Plus, an ESTP would never fix something that wasn't broke. They might unconsciously break it in order to have the fun of fixing it, though.

ENTPs come up with stuff that _they_ believe is practical and possible. Walt Disney said that if you can dream it, you can do it. His dreams were unrealistic to the casual observer but he made them happen anyway because his intuition allowed him to see things that most other people couldn't.

P.S. Why did you make the text tiny? Just to make me squint and get a few extra wrinkles? Real funny, man. Just hilarious.


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

Phoenix said:


> You are sooooooooooo not an ESTP; even I can tell you that much. You don't give off an SP vibe in the least. Plus, an ESTP would never fix something that wasn't broke. They might unconsciously break it in order to have the fun of fixing it, though.


I think I subconsciously see every system as broken. Broken = improvable = stimulus. But that's all subconscious, so this is all guesswork.



> ENTPs come up with stuff that _they_ believe is practical and possible. Walt Disney said that if you can dream it, you can do it. His dreams were unrealistic to the casual observer but he made them happen anyway because his intuition allowed him to see things that most other people couldn't.
> 
> P.S. Why did you make the text tiny? Just to make me squint and get a few extra wrinkles? Real funny, man. Just hilarious.


Well I don't consciously determine an idea's practicality when it originates... I don't consciously generate them anyway. It's only afterwards, when I'm deciding what to pursue, that I have to check for realism.

Oops


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## counterintuitive (Apr 8, 2011)

One last thing.

@noexcuses Are you the type of person who will stalk me all over the forum, derailing threads because you think I'm some other type, if I still list my type as ENTP?


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