# Can you develop cognitive functions that are not a part of your MBTI type?



## Chinchilla (May 27, 2010)

If an INTP wanted to could they develop Ni? Could an INTJ develop Ne? 

If so how could someone go about developing functions that are not a part of their main four?


----------



## amon91 (Feb 1, 2011)

I've wondered about this before. My guess is you could use your existing functions to emulate the behavior you'd see from a function you don't have. Just an idea though.


----------



## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes we can develop all eight functions to some extent. But our shadow functions take more energy to use, even those with the same orientation as our dominant function (E/I). However depending on the placement of the function in your natural process, too much of use of it may be result in a negative. 

In your examples, you allude to INTP using Ni, which would be in 6th place. Berens calls this placement the "Critical Parent" role describing someone using that function in "....how we find weak spots and can immobilize and demoralize ourselves and others. The process that plays this role is often sporadic in its appearance and emerges more often under stressful conditions when something important is at risk." I use Si the same way in my make-up. Ne in the INTJ is considered the Opposing Role since the attitude is opposite of the dominant function. 

I just blogged something *here* on the use of the shadow that describes how Te is used for a Ti dominant type and Beebe's self-assessment of using Ni as an ENTP type in saying, *"My introverted intuition, shadow in attitude to my superior extraverted intuition, has decidedly oppositional traits: it expresses itself in ways I could variously describe as avoidant, passive-aggressive, paranoid and seductive, in all cases taking up a stance that is anathema to the way my superior extraverted intuition wants me to behave. I decided to call the archetype carrying this bag of oppositional behaviors the Opposing Personality."*


----------



## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I would think we would use all of the possible functions in some way, to some extent, just that some are very infantile or used in negative ways and it can be difficult to use shadow functions productively. That's not based on any expert's theory, though, just what would make sense to me.


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

> _Ego is defined in psychoanalytic theory, as; the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and mediates between the person and external reality. It is the conscious element that knows experience, and reacts accordingly._
> 
> Taking this definition into account, we can determine that Ego is Introverted Perceiving (Pi), working as a mediator between Introverted Judging (Ji) and Extraverted Perceiving (Pe) and Extraverted Judging (Je).
> 
> ...


*Ji <--- mediates <--- Pi+Pe ---> mediates ---> Je*

Ni is not a type, but a method in which information is pieced together, with the help of Se.
Si is not a type, but a method in which information is pieced together, with the help of Ne.

Ni needs Se to interpret information from the internal (Ji) and external world (Je).
Si needs Ne to interpret information from the internal (Ji) and external world (Je).

Ni cannot use Ne.
Si cannot use Se.

Play with a couple of magnets and you'll see what this is about.

The shadow theory has been mentioned on numerous occasions by Myers, and Jung himself, that it is purely in the subconscious. It cannot be used on a conscious level.


----------



## Chinchilla (May 27, 2010)

So to be able to use Ni I would have to develop Se as well?


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

If you have Ni you have Se. It is a given.

That is why I frown whenever someone says an inferior function is hardly ever used, because they are basically saying that people with dominant perceiving functions are retarded.


----------



## Chinchilla (May 27, 2010)

SyndiCat said:


> If you have Ni you have Se. It is a given.
> 
> That is why I frown whenever someone says an inferior function is hardly ever used, because they are basically saying that people with dominant perceiving functions are retarded.


So the two functions are like a loop. If I make a decision with Ti it has to be confirmed with Fe, and the "opinion" of Fe is looped back to Ti to be reconfirmed logically? Is that how it works?


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

That is correct. Once you have solved a problem (or a piece of a problem) the information will have reached all conscious cognitive functions, excluding shadows, since they are in the subconscious.



















You can take these flowcharts into account, but I must warn you; nobody on this website, or any of the other typology websites for that matter, want to pay attention to what Jung was really trying to say; instead they indulge themselves in ridiculous cognitive function stereotypes. So you're much better off on the bandwagon with everyone else, or else they'll have your ass handed to you. After about a year of involvement in Myers, and three months of studying C.G. Jung I was pretty much left with- and consider 99% of the people who says they are "in to" typology a bunch of perpetual morons going about as insects in an ants nest. As analytical psychology stands now (a joke that is) I am positive Jung himself would be ashamed. So you can say that I am pretty much done with typology, and see no reason to participate or influence it any longer. That may be a contradiction on my behalf, but that is what I am thinking as of today.


----------



## Chinchilla (May 27, 2010)

SyndiCat said:


>


What should I read if I want to get more into the functions? 

I understand the basics of it, but I would like to understand it more.


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

Analytical Psychology, by C.G. Jung.
Jungian Psychology, by Robin Robertson.

Cannot give you any other external links.


----------



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Well the labels for the letters are silly and confusing for starters.

If they are viewpoints, then they should not be confused with "cognitive functions."

such as, sensing, perceiving, thinking, directing our awareness, etc...

Those are completely seperate brain capabilities, than, what we attach to them.

We can say we perceive in different ways for example.

But once we start "considering the implications" We are no longer perceiving. We are thinking.

And once we start thinking about certain things, we are to label them differently?

And then, the part of us that "adjusts" based on new thinking, we call this a "judging function", that is either thinking or ethics (feeling)?

And what if my adjustments are minute, compared to major? can not a minor adjustment sometimes have huge consequnces, and at other times, minor? There is no accounting or predicting that based on these descriptions. They are without context. So they are ways of seeing what happened, afterwards, a way for us to understand somewhat, but they seem largely unsuited as a whole.

The terms also completely contradict definitions given by empiricism, starting with Locke, and I dont see why we are okay with being so confusing, when we need not be.


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

Yes, when it is all set and done, if one can understand this concept without taking it literal or dismissing it entirely. Our Ji is not capable of judging without its introverted partner; Pi. And our Pi is not capable of perceiving without its introverted partner; Ji. And so on. This does not mean that they interact with one another, but they are based of one another. Ji and Pe will however interact with one another, as will Pi and Je. And this creates the function orders:

Pi+Je+Ji+Pe, and the mirrored version.
Ji+Pe+Pi+Je, and the mirrored version.

Your preferred functions are the top two functions, and your least preferred functions are the bottom two. Least preferred, however, does not mean that you do not use them. You use them plenty even though they are not preferred. It is simply a matter of preference. 

If you are forced to place exceeding preference on your bottom two functions under difficult circumstances then it may cause these "looping" effects that Jung mentioned, however, Jung mentioned it being the dominant and tertiary loop specifically that looped. And all of this may furher lead to cognition disturbances such as depersonalization disorder, ADHD, schizophrenia, sleeping disorders, and certain anxieties, etc. It is, however, but a concept thus far. A valuable contribution, but a concept never the less.

I find it fascinating that I had to dig through 7 months of stereotype-bs all by myself just to figure out that I was indeed an INTJ, not an INFP or ISFP. The personality descriptions that people are desperately trying to hold on to on these typology forums are, if anything, retarded, and has nothing to do with Analytical psychology. If anything, they need to break a part this entire system and rebuild it from scratch, because as it stands now it doesn't make any sense with all these stereotypes. It makes me question why I'm still here.


----------



## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

SyndiCat said:


> Yes, when it is all set and done, if one can understand this concept without taking it literal or dismissing it entirely. Our Ji is not capable of judging without its introverted partner; Pi. And our Pi is not capable of perceiving without its introverted partner; Ji. And so on. This does not mean that they interact with one another, but they are based of one another. Ji and Pe will however interact with one another, as will Pi and Je. And this creates the function orders:
> 
> Pi+Je+Ji+Pe, and the mirrored version.
> Ji+Pe+Pi+Je, and the mirrored version.
> ...


Very good answer, but I don't think that is the question. As you explained, we have at least one of the four function-attitudes in our make-up (Ji-Pe-Pi-Je or some similar make-up). However what we cannot do, which as I understand the question, is develop the other functions. To put in more succinctly, if the example I give results in Ti-Se-Ni-Fe, then I cannot Fi-Ne-Si-Te since it conflicts with my preferred function-attitudes. 

Mirroring is a good word, but I think compensating would be better used. My Ti must have Fe to compensate it, and my Ni must compensate my Se. Otherwise I become too one-sided. No other function-attitude will negate those mentioned, ergo I cannot use Te to compensate Ti, Si to compensate Se, Ne for Ni or Fi for Fe.


----------



## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

My Ni is my third strongest function lol. I don't recommend doing that though, since it means a very poorly developed Si. Anyway, the answer is yes. You can definitely develop other functions outside your basic four. In order to be a well-rounded person it is necessary to understand all eight functions, yet accept yourself for the functions that are most natural to you. You never want to develop a shadow function to be stronger than your other functions (as seen in the extremely unhealthy manifestations of Ni that I happen to have).


----------



## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't think it's a matter of "developing" the shadow functions at all. The first four can be said to develop, because they naturally become more conscious at stages in our maturation. 
All the shadows are are the same four functions, but with the attitudes reversed. The way the theory was originally conceived, it was really just the four functions, and a dominant orientation. The dominant function took the dominant orientation as its attitude. The other functions took the opposite orientation. Then, it was determined that the tertiary was really in the dominant attitude. Adding archetypal complexes to this, it's a Puer complex that orients the tertiary to the dominant orientation. 

The other functions are really undifferentiated, and their roles can be seen mostly by way of the emotional images of the archetypes. So the best you can do with them is to recognize and own the complexes (which we often project onto others), and then you will gain a bit more conscious control over them. You haven't really "developed" anything (as the functions are really not "skills", or some sort of "gears" we switch back and forth to, as we seem to be treating them, with those terms). You're just expanding consciousness.

Like with me, when, in studying this stuff, I came to recognize the Senex (critical parent archetype) complex whose negative views reached me by way of Ni premonitions on the meanings and likely outcomes of patterns I was seeing. I can now see the cause of a lot of my negative thinking, and harness it more, also paying more attention to underlying significance of patterns, which I had always imagined, but never took seriously, at least not _consciously_. It helps me understand both my own inner struggles, as well as these theories better.
I don't feel like I have now "_developed_ Ni". Just became more conscious of the perspectives it deals with.


----------



## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

Chinchilla said:


> If so how could someone go about developing functions that are not a part of their main four?


If you want to learn any kind of skill, it's often very effective simply to spend time with a person who is very good at that and learn directly from observing how they do things and talking to them about it. Although I am ISTJ I would say I have a rather developed Ni, possibly because I grew up with a best friend INFJ who I was very close to and spent a lot of time with. I am married to an ENTP and I have learned a lot about Ne and how to apply it because I know he thinks about and approaches things. I have a book that has exercises you can do to try to develop the different cognitive functions but it's nothing like seeing it in action in a person and soaking it up from them.


----------



## 3053 (Oct 14, 2009)

Well I'm an INFP and my function order is:

Ne, Ni, Fi, Te, Ti, Fe, Se, Si

I have a very strong preference for N, relatively strong for I, P is about medium and a weak preference for F. Maybe that has something to do with it?


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

NeonBomb said:


> Well I'm an INFP and my function order is:
> 
> Ne, Ni, Fi, Te, Ti, Fe, Se, Si
> 
> I have a very strong preference for N, relatively strong for I, P is about medium and a weak preference for F. Maybe that has something to do with it?


Did a 5 minute online test give you that result?

If so, it's worth noting that these tests are not reliable.


----------



## 3053 (Oct 14, 2009)

SyndiCat said:


> Did a 5 minute online test give you that result?
> 
> If so, it's worth noting that these tests are not reliable.


I've taken about two or three different tests several times each and the results were more or less the same. I'm also basing that on my own gradual research, although I'm not an expert on the functions.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

I can and I do. I have a feeling that the MBTI 16 types is a bit of bullshit. I do agree with my temperament NT, but anything else is fluctuant. I or E, P or J. Let me give you an example. Ti user with no Te wouldn't be able to do a plan. ENTP supposed to be Ti and I still can plan, even more I turned it into my natural way of achieving things. My bet is that we all can use all of the cognitive functions. Ne, Ni, Te, Ti all of that seems OK for me. Fe and Si are draining me. That meant to be what I'm about to develop - fuck that.


----------



## SyndiCat (Oct 2, 2010)

DarkSideOfLight said:


> Ti user with no Te wouldn't be able to do a plan.


Jung nor Myers has said that this is what Te does.

Extraverted Thinking is but a function, of four conscious functions, in a process of solving problems. As a Thinking function it create names to unknown entities, and as an extraverted function it uses what is external, what is known to everyone else; family, friends, community, universal.

_T: "This red oval shaped thing is an apple." (E.g. A variable)
Te: "Because they say so."
Ti: "Because I say so."_

Someone with Extraverted Thinking is more likely to ask questions regarding factual knowledge such as "Why does Te work the way it does?" in order to get other people's opinions on the matter, whereas Extraverted Feeling is more likely to ask questions such as "What is the most proper way to behave myself in this community?" in order to get other people's opinions on the matter. The Introverted versions of these work independently, and will want little if no influence from the rest of the world, deeming things according to self.

Stripped down of stereotypes these functions look like this:

_F: This information will now be weighed out.
Fi: According to self.
Fe: According to what's universal.

T: This information now has a name.
Ti: According to self.
Te: According to what's universal._


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Hello to all of you,

This is my first post to the personality cafe, though I first did the MBTI about 10 years ago. It got me first time. Since then I have used the Analytical Psychology model that Keirsey/MBTI is based on and developed a fair skill at typing people with in less than a minute of meeting them. I get a hit rate of about 9 out of ten based on their acknowledgement of the accuracy of my descriptions.

I am ENTP so my psychic model looks like

Dominant ----> Inferior

*Ne Ti Fe Si ----- Ego (Concious)
-------------------------------------------------------
Ni Te Fi Se ----- Anima (Unconscious) *

We all have all 8 of the possible functions, but of course we only know of 4 of them, until we go through Individuation.

Jung's model was inspired by studying mental illness, mythology, literature, and religion. 

It is particularly useful to me because I have Bipolar Disorder (Manic Depression) and I seem to understand how I collapse.and recover. It appears that the whole process lasting about two years goes like this.

1. A lack of sleep seems to cause Ne to become over active and my mind is flooded with possibility every time I see or hear anything. First manic stage. I have all my best ideas here.

2. Ne shuts down and I am left with a lead in Ti. I appear mildly depressed as I churn over in my mind the overload from Ne in (1) above. First depressive stage.

3. Ti shuts down and I lead with Fe empathy for all around me, I am a sex fiend, air head, and think I'm god at this point (2nd manic phase).

4. Fe shuts down and I am left with just one concious function Si. I feel very ill and display hypochondria. (2nd depressive stage);

5. Si shuts down and I have no concious functioning. I feel to be in a waking dream. I am now psychotic. But I continue to function on my shadow functions with Ni where I sit the exploring my inner world. This seem to be Major Depressive Disorder from here on in.

6. Ni shuts down I am now leading with Te making me a little bit OCD but I haven't got much in the way of energy at this point.

7. Te shuts down and I lead with Fi. I can think of nothing but morality and ethics as I beat myself up for behaviours shown in the previous stages. I hate my self to the core of my being.

8. Fi shuts down leaving me with just one function: Se. At this point unless stopped I will take my own life.

9. Se shuts down and I become profoundly depressed. I cannot move, I can see and hear but make no sense of the world at all. I need full time care and return this by soiling myself.

Getting better is the reverse of this process.

I have gone down and up this path maybe 20 times since adolescence. Various intervention have reversed the process part way through but I have gone all the way twice and have been hospitalized twice for attempted suicide. Please don't worry - I'm in good health at the moment.

What's really interesting here is two recent studies on Bipolar and Schizophrenic Disorders.

1. For nearly 150 years these have been treated as separate illness's until genetic sequencing showed them to be closely related.

2. It seems from a recent paper that Bipolar is for Extroverts and Schizophrenia is for Introverts 

I would love somebody who leads with Ni (INFJ & INTJ) who has a diagnosis of Schizophrenia to consider the above sequencing on their cognitive functions. Perhaps you could give us your story? Also an ENFP with Bipolar Disorder should be an interesting story too.

Hope this isn't too scary.

Donald.


----------



## Chinchilla (May 27, 2010)

Sky Cat said:


> Dominant ----> Inferior
> 
> *Ne Ti Fe Si ----- Ego (Concious)
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Ni Te Fi Se ----- Anima (Unconscious) *


This is interesting. What about introverts would cause them to have Schizophrenia? What happens to INTPs and INFPs, Schizophrenia as well? 

If you reversed that sequence for an introvert either their intuition (INFJ, INTJ) or decision making process (INFP, INTP) will be left at the end. I doubt that is what happens but it's an idea.


----------



## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

Chinchilla said:


> If an INTP wanted to could they develop Ni? Could an INTJ develop Ne?
> 
> If so how could someone go about developing functions that are not a part of their main four?


I am an ISTJ, and I have developed my Ne and Fe. I understand that such things become easier as you age. I'm 35. Ne for me, I think, may have come largely from long-term exposure and interaction with an INFJ. Fe is a more recent development, and that took a bit more focus and attention.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

Sky Cat said:


> Hello to all of you,
> 
> What's really interesting here is two recent studies on Bipolar and Schizophrenic Disorders.
> 
> ...


If thats true then I would be an extrovert then. Bipolar seems very familiar. I have to say there is something in the sequence you gave us. Hmmm...


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

*Bipolar/Schizophrenia modelling*

Not sure how it would go in reality as I'm not schizophrenic, but as a model:-

*INFP
Dom -> Inf
Fi Ne Si Te ----- Conscious (Ego)
--------------------------------------------------------
Fe Ni Se Ti ----- Unconscious (Anima/Animus)*

And if the functions collapsed in dominant order from Ego to Anima/Animus we'd get (very crudely with a lot of interpretation on my part):-

1. Fi collapses - loss of values/ethics leaving overloaded Ne seeing patterns in everything. 

2. Ne collapses - loss of insight into the world leaving overloaded Si feeling ill/hypochondria.

3. Si collapses - leaving Te with a mission to organize the world.

4 Te collapses and we fall into a dreaming/nightmare psychosis leading on Fe feeling misplaced empathy. Is there paranoia at this point?

5. Fe collapses - empathy gives way to Ni introspection (soul searching?).

6. Ni collapses - we are aware of the external world and its dangers through Se.

7. Se collapses - leaving Ti trying to logically interpret what has happened. 

8. Complete collapse as for Bipolar.

Any INFP schizophrenics got a take on this?

Thanks for taking an interest.

Donald.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Sorry DarkSideOfLight I don't quite understand:- ENTP's are extroverted.

Thanks

Donald.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

Sky Cat said:


> Sorry DarkSideOfLight I don't quite understand:- ENTP's are extroverted.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Donald.


I believe that I'm ambivert. Or, I looped myself somewhere inside the process you wrote about. It might work differently for me due to my own experience/circumstances, but it is similar. I'm not sure if my cognitive functions are in the same order. It is confusing for me at the moment, but I'm sure I have found some piece missing thanks to you. I have to think about that.

Sky Cat do you think that it is possible to develop functions that normally would be listed on the shadow side and use them, because of bipolar disorder?


----------



## Apollo Celestio (Mar 10, 2010)

I doubt people are conscious in 4 functions, let alone 8 of them.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks DSOL,

I think your dead right when you say looped in some part of it:- I recognise that from my late teens when I was zigzagging around in a set of lead functions thus:- *Ti Fe Si*

We do in deed have 8 functions but four of them live in the unconscious. The process of *Individuation* as described by Jung and normally seen as the mid-life crisis in the western world introduces us to our shadow functions which we learn to appreciate and integrate into our self.

For details of this search the web for *Analytical Psychology *and* Jungian Psychology.*

We often criticize others from the perspective of our shadow functions, this is called Projection. For an ENTP typical criticisms projected onto others would be:-

Ni - The other person lacks personal insight. They can't see them selves.
Te - The other person is not organized. They cannot organize a piss up in a brewery. (English expression).
Fi - The other person lack values, morality, and ethics. What a sneaky creep they are.
Se - The other person doesn't know what's going on around them. Their head is in the clouds.

Do you recognise any of this? As I've got older (50 this year) this kind of mellows and you recognize your Anima/Animus personality at work as it casts a shadow over your relationship with others. 

The only problem for me is that I have spent a significant period of time living as my Anima. My Anima can be given an approximate personality by reconstruction the shadow function to a MBTI code just by inverting all letters of ENTP to ISFJ, INTJ is actually closer. I met my ex wife as ISFJ and she was ESFJ. This is very significant because these two differ in just the lead letter and this is known as the Pals relationship. Of course when I was finally diagnosed at 39 and treated I became an almost full time ENTP. My ex and I had no common ground and it all ended in divorce.

How can I do a general broadcast post to people who will may be Schizophrenic or Bipolar on this site? i.e.ENTP/ENFP/ENTJ/ENFJ and INTP/INFP/INTJ/INTJ. and sort of do a mental illness behaviour survey across time.

Any ideas?

Donald.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Apollo C, 

one of the first things I was taught when I did basic counselling was that none of us can be in the other persons frame of reference, so I cannot speak for others and have in this series of posts asked if there is any recognition of what I perceive.

I am not concious in 8 functions at the same time, but maybe just one at any one time. When I am in good mental health this function is selected from the four available functions for me and changes on the fly as appropriate.. 

For you this would be:-

*INTJ

Dom -> Inf
Ni Te Fi Se <-- Concious (Ego)
--------------------------------------------------------
Ne Ti Fe Si <-- Unconscious (Anima/Animus)*

It is interesting to note that in terms of *Analytical Psychology Theory* my Ego is your Anima and your Ego is my Anima. This means in theory that we are perfectly positioned to argue the toss with each other as each of our Anima attacks the other persons Ego via *Projection. *

In psychosis I loose my Ego and function on my Anima (your ego functions) alone. It is a grim and cheerless place for me, but may be just perfectly nice for you!

I wonder if you could describe any stress or depressive episode in terms of functional collapse as I have attempted to do?

Unconditional Positive Regards

Donald.


----------



## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

OK, just to clarify; the anima is not the entire shadow; the anima is just the fourth position in the first four, or the *inferior*, not the bottom four. This was considered the "shadow" in four-process theory (which doesn't deal with the other four at all), and in eight-process theory (Beebe) is said to be the gateway to the shadow, since as we see, it does lie on the "boundary", so to speak.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Many thanks Eric.

Yes, the boundary between concious awareness of functioning and unconscious functioning is not a straight line across the four primary functions and is positioned by developmental growth. The notions of Anima/Animus, Shadow and Shadow Functions as a terminology is already somewhat confused and I have done nothing to help this situation. Thanks in deed for your clarification! 

It seems to me that the transition into psychosis varies between people as one descends the functions from the 1st to the 8th in Beebe's model:- making *judgements *in ways which with one is not consciously familiar based on *perceptions* one does not consciously understand.

What does seem to hold true for me as I fall apart in a bipolar episode is the systematic ordered collapse of the functions starting at the dominant. and then their ordered restoration. And I suppose what I posit is that Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorders may be the same mechanism acting on different personalities resulting in their differing symptoms and hence separate unrelated classification. The extroverted/Introverted cyclic pattern of the function certainly matches the mania/depression cyclic pattern of the Bipolar Disorder. I notice that the "Gold Standard" for the treatment of Bipolar Disorder Lithium is also used to treat Schizophrenia.

Have you any more light you can shed on my speculations?

All the best,

Donald.


----------



## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

I've never gone into mapping the archetypes to those disorders, though I think it would be interesting if such links could be found.

Lenore Thomson suggests that the Trickster and Demon (the 7th and 8th) are more associated with severe trauma. John Beebe Archetypes | Lenore Thomson Bentz

She draws from Donald Kalsched, who linked them to PTSD, though I do believe lesser versions of the complexes are constellated under less forms of "everyday" stress.

I wonder if Asperger's makes one more conscious of functional products or perspectives others find weird.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Very interesting Eric, thanks.

It's sure to say that when I'm on my 7th and 8th functions in the pits of depression I am suffering a severe trauma. The 7th Fi makes me hate myself and the 8th Se gives me the means to terminate my life in response. Trickster and Demon for sure!

My 10 year old son has an Autistic Spectrum Disorder diagnosis and a good friend who is head of Special Educational Needs at a local school says she would have given both me, my son, and herself an ASD diagnosis. I don't think I know anybody with Asperger's Syndrome. For the record all three of us are all ENTP! 

I have wondered if ASD limits the number of functions visible/usable at any one time as I have noticed both my son and I are chronically poor multitaskers.

Importantly it is well documented that depressive disorders are a co-morbidity with ASD.

Any thoughts?

Donald.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

Holly fuck.

Sky check this one out http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/45823-ne-ti-te-ni-do-you-think-possible-switch-between-them.html

I'm capable of using Ne/Ti OR Ni/Te
That is why I asked if there was a way to develop your shadow functions because (or while being in the vicious loop) of bipolar disorder. 
I have definitely maniac episodes when Ne takes over and I can do anything and everything. Then lack of challenge or hard face-to-face with reality puts me in INTP(J) kind of state, when I make deep analysis over something. Ti/Te is my main cognitive function at this stage. I may stay on a subject for months, which I believe is not a common ENTP's thing.

Most of the time I'm bouncing from one extreme to another. Now there is the fun part I have developed all of my 4 shadow functions, while having only 2 first main ones (Ne, Ti) in a good condition. 

At this point I'm only sure about my temperament. I have had evolved from an ENTP to something that I'm not sure about now (XNTY). That is why I've wrote that I'm ambivert. I test as E only because once I'm a social situation I'm going for the spot light, when I'm presented to have a choice I choose to be social, but I haven't seen any question that would ask whether I did prevent myself/others from putting me in such situation in the first place. Not to mention that I'm often doing rationalisation that leads me wall myself inside my own head. Subconcious processes that don't come up when I think how to answer some set of questions.

The truth is damn easy, but it is even easier to lie yourself. That's how I see all this.


----------



## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Sky Cat said:


> Very interesting Eric, thanks.
> 
> It's sure to say that when I'm on my 7th and 8th functions in the pits of depression I am suffering a severe trauma. The 7th Fi makes me hate myself and the 8th Se gives me the means to terminate my life in response. Trickster and Demon for sure!


 Well, the kind of trauma Kalsched was referring to (PTSD) was like the aftermath of war and other horrors, where the ego is totally damaged.
But what you're likely referring to would be the lesser constellations of the complexes.
(I made the same mistake when I first heard about these "traumas" in light of those two archetypes).


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

Dark Side of Light & Eric B,

I have just been scanning the web for info on John Beebe and have run across a web page clearly written by an intelligent, under-stated, and diplomatic INTP by the name of Eric B.

I'm not allowed to post links just yet DSOF, but I suppose if you ask Eric nicely he will modestly post a link to the page!

Have just scan read it and will read it thoroughly at my leisure, but the light is beginning to shine through my preconceptions. 

DSOF:- Check Eric's page out. I don't know how far down the list you go (I recognize all 8) but it seems a better sort of description of the psyche than what I have had to date. By the way, do you have a diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder, because its a very exclusive club and we don't let just anybody join you know. ;-) (OK, I'll stop playing the mental illness snob).

Considering Beebe's list of archetypes makes me very clear on one thing about myself:- I seem to lock in one archetype until I suppose I burn it out and then either fall or rise into the next in order depending weather I'm going up or down in mood.. That is to say I have one archetype in play at any one time. Is this normal? Do you have a number of archetypes at your disposal at any one time? Do you have one but are able to switch between your archetypes at will. 

Tell me Eric, do you deliberately stalk out-spoken ENTP's and gently set them straight when they get themselves in a muddle? ;-)

Many, many thanks to both of you,

Donald.


----------



## Sky Cat (Mar 21, 2011)

DarkSideOfLight,

I do have periods when Ni/Te replaces Ne/Ti and become very directed (I used to run a department of 25 technicians).

On the other hand I've just come up through Fe/Si and I've been empathetic, impulsive, and horny. (Why do I always go head over heels for the actress type with a face covered in slap and perfect hair & nails?)

Under stress I can be something of a showman myself and give entertaining talks to one an all on a number of subjects I half understand.

The thing is are you able to move at will between your functions or do you just move about without free will?

Thanks for your perspective.

Donald.


----------

