# Inwards vs outwards self



## slowriot (Nov 11, 2008)

So I was talking to Grim about enneagram on ventrilo last night and I had some thoughts on it. This idea has some lacking thoughts so Im not saying it is perfect.

I have a basic problem with the test. Its not just this test but basically a lot other tests. That there seems to be an inwards behavior and an outwards behavior. My thoughts are basically in correlation with The Johari Window where you have a known self but not known to others (here inwards self) and a known self that is also known to others (the outwards self). Basically if I use myself as an example I have an outwards apperance of 9w8 and an inwards self of 5w6. This problem seems to be something that I have seen in many that have a hard time figuring out their motive for as an example why and how they do things. That these processes hinders them coming to a certain conclusion of what personality they are. Even for myself. And that seems to be a basic problem that I have not with my knowledge of enneagram - which might not be much - have seen adressed.


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## mcgooglian (Nov 12, 2008)

I seem to go through phases around people and my outward appearance. At first, I seem all sweet and innocent so I'd say 9w1 at first (especially around people with some kind of authority so I can get away with stuff and get free stuff without even trying). Once I start feeling more comfortable around people, I go back and forth between 7w8 and 9w8. In smaller groups, the 7w8 shows big time and I can be seen as the quiet yet crazy member of the group who doesn't seem to have boundaries with the things I do. Some people would definitely see me as a 7w8 though on the inside, I'm definitely a 9w8.


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## TurranMC (Sep 15, 2009)

First off thanks for that Johari window link, that is a very interesting way to to try to understand people.


Anywho this is really the problem with any type of personality test and typing people in general. There are so many things that are not only hidden from others, but can be hidden from oneself. If our true selves were always known to ourselves or others than no one would ever be confused about their type. For instance you say you're 5w6 but you may actually be 9w8. There may be parts of yourself you do not realize or acknowledge that he did notice. Its quite troublesome. I try very very hard to view myself objectively and to understand what people think of me, but can I ever truly look at myself in such a way? Can I ever fully *know* myself?


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## slowriot (Nov 11, 2008)

TurranMC said:


> First off thanks for that Johari window link, that is a very interesting way to to try to understand people.
> 
> 
> Anywho this is really the problem with any type of personality test and typing people in general. There are so many things that are not only hidden from others, but can be hidden from oneself. If our true selves were always known to ourselves or others than no one would ever be confused about their type. For instance you say you're 5w6 but you may actually be 9w8. There may be parts of yourself you do not realize or acknowledge that he did notice. Its quite troublesome. I try very very hard to view myself objectively and to understand what people think of me, but can I ever truly look at myself in such a way? Can I ever fully *know* myself?


exactly, and I was reading up on the enneagram types and the threads Aubrey started and now 5w4 seems more me :laughing: I can see myself as a 9w8, but I feel Im too interested in the inner world of knowledge to be a true 9w8. But I would not consider myself a true intellectual.

And the problem is to find descriptions that are both adressing the inwards self and outwards self, which seems to be something that some descriptions are too generalized to describe.


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## Rourk (Feb 17, 2009)

*I can tell you what I see*

The I that is me isn't the I that you see


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## slowriot (Nov 11, 2008)

Rourk said:


> The I that is me isn't the I that you see


Yes thats the basic idea, any other thoughts? Or are we just being captain obvious?


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## Rourk (Feb 17, 2009)

slowriot said:


> Yes thats the basic idea, any other thoughts? Or are we just being captain obvious?


Touche. :tongue:


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## Rourk (Feb 17, 2009)

*Bundle Perception Theory*

What do you make of this? It rings true a lot after I have interactions with others. It seems to me that I dowload aspects of their personality and then I have to delete them. Certain moments in my life have been nothing but sheer terror of non-being. 

Bundle theory of identity (Hume)


I wonder if this should scare a person though if they don't really exist as a being with an 'identity'. Only more or less as an automation, a machination if you will. Did I get this wrong?

Have you ever noticed while driving on the highway or around town you go into animalistic mode? Writers, scientists have talked about this as the right side of the brain, the meditative state. But I think this is the state of mind that is more true to what is really happening. You can eliminate this illusion called consciousness and break it down to animals interacting.


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## Tal (Oct 19, 2009)

slowriot said:


> So I was talking to Grim about enneagram on ventrilo last night and I had some thoughts on it. This idea has some lacking thoughts so Im not saying it is perfect.
> 
> I have a basic problem with the test. Its not just this test but basically a lot other tests. That there seems to be an inwards behavior and an outwards behavior. My thoughts are basically in correlation with The Johari Window where you have a known self but not known to others (here inwards self) and a known self that is also known to others (the outwards self). Basically if I use myself as an example I have an outwards apperance of 9w8 and an inwards self of 5w6. This problem seems to be something that I have seen in many that have a hard time figuring out their motive for as an example why and how they do things. That these processes hinders them coming to a certain conclusion of what personality they are. Even for myself. And that seems to be a basic problem that I have not with my knowledge of enneagram - which might not be much - have seen adressed.


Try looking at it from an Astrological angle as well. Your rising, outward self 1 as it appears to others that don't know you. Your sun, outward self 2 as it appears to others who know you. Your moon, your real inward self that only those really really close to you know.
In general, I've seen my ENFP 4w5 as being fairly constant, but reflected personality wise totally differently based on who I'm with.
Maybe yes, maybe no.


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## slowriot (Nov 11, 2008)

Rourk said:


> What do you make of this? It rings true a lot after I have interactions with others. It seems to me that I dowload aspects of their personality and then I have to delete them. Certain moments in my life have been nothing but sheer terror of non-being.
> 
> Bundle theory of identity (Hume)
> 
> ...


Bundle theory can only work for me in the inwards world or in the mind as a sort of method to remember things. I didnt read the whole text, but Im trying to relate it to the OP here. It almost seems to have a introverted sensing maybe even intuition over it. But to say that the world is just properties you might as well say we live in the Matrix or in a computer world, where the idea of properties to object makes sense.

Im not giving this too much thought though. And I didnt read all there was to say on Bundle Theory.


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## Grey (Oct 10, 2009)

This is really interesting.

You could be a 9; I could be a 5. There's always the account of how you or I truly feel, though. The larger problem might be that the Enneagram works from a limited perspective, so it is another flawed system to begin with. Owing to that, perceptions of ourselves and others (both also flawed), there's a lot of nonsense when it comes to self-typing and trying to be typed by others. I'd say the best way to go about the entire thing is to decide for yourself, ultimately, but take in what others have to say about you and try to apply it. Turran said it right - there could be something others know about you that you don't.

In the end, the forum isn't the best place to type someone. There is merit to what others say, as your habits on the forum are surely an indication of something you would not show in real life (many people have reported that they feel they can be 'themselves' here, rather than in their own lives), but at the same time, that little smidgen is rubbed out by what you don't see. Since none of this is face-to-face, and almost none of it happens in real time, it's hard to see who the real person is.

Maybe they ought to delve into outward vs. inward theory in more Enneagram descriptions.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't usually visit the Enneagram part of the forum but I happened to stumble upon this thread today and want to add comments regarding MBTI, since it seems to fit here.

After spending months thinking I was an ESFP, I realized in the last couple days that ESFP is the mask I wear for others and the place I fall into when I'm stressed, as I learned to do in childhood. After not being able to figure out my type, I chose ESFP from the 16 descriptions but now see that I should have looked not at behavior but to who I am inside -- a thinker, even though it doesn't always get expressed enough for me to easily fit into ESTP descriptions.

I agree with Grey, that we should look most to ourselves to sort out type, especially our motivations rather than behavior. And I've found that many times M-B and Enneagram descriptions of how people of that type behave can end up sounding like caricatures, not real people.

7w6


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## Tucken (Dec 13, 2009)

Karen said:


> I don't usually visit the Enneagram part of the forum but I happened to stumble upon this thread today and want to add comments regarding MBTI, since it seems to fit here.
> 
> I agree with Grey, that we should look most to ourselves to sort out type, especially our motivations rather than behavior. And I've found that many times M-B and Enneagram descriptions of how people of that type behave can end up sounding like caricatures, not real people.
> 
> 7w6


That's what I think is so great about the enneagram. It goes deep into why we are behaving in certain ways instead of focusing on how we behave. I think it really pin-points my being and works great for me, better than the MBTI.


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## cardinalfire (Dec 10, 2009)

Aren't you guys just talking about character and integrity here?

If you are acting with integrity in your life, why wouldn't the 'you' who you feel you are be the same as the 'you' that others see?

I grant you that personality tests/indicators including Myers Briggs can be taken too far when people start overanalysing themselves, 'oh am I this type, or this one'. It doesn't really matter, so long as you can sleep with who are at the end of the day, so you want to do some self discovery? Sure why not? It's called being human. I usually fall between ISFP and INFP and have been tested as other types (i'm possibly a lot more into this than is average lol) though I ultimately consider myself an honest decent human being who shows the same patterns of behaviour to everyone I meet. It is my character to use my head, heart and gut when I feel the time is right, I don't get into 'oh I tend to think things more so I must be type 6, yet other times I am quite laid back so I could be type 9' which am I? 

The truth is we are all some of the types at one time or another, it just so happens that when you look at one, you could say yeah I am 85% that one more so than the others and just leave it at that. Use your head, heart or gut to decide which one you feel you honestly are. How come you don't threat about which star sign you are? If that wasn't determined by birth date, you might be sitting there now going through 'oh am I actually a cancer, or a capricorn' in your mind, and really life is too short to worry about it. Check out these vids if you want criticisms of the myers briggs, the girl talks about the forer effect, which helped me alot: (



)

Also I once doing some research on 'becoming a renaissance man' a while ago. I just love the idea of learning loads of skills! Funny enough one of the parts in this blog which I found disscussed this : 2009 March
understanding and merging your faces! I don't know why it was in a set of topics about being a renaissance man, I was expecting art, foreign language and other skills, though I'm glad I remembered it. It might be useful reading or go over some of what you are discussing.


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

cardinalfire said:


> Aren't you guys just talking about character and integrity here?
> 
> If you are acting with integrity in your life, why wouldn't the 'you' who you feel you are be the same as the 'you' that others see?


Some people for various reasons have fallen into types/jobs/styles of relating that aren't right for them, and a method such as Myers-Briggs can help sort out their true type so they can better align their lives with their inner being. It is an integrity issue in that the person isn't being themself, but it's not necessarily a purposeful mask.


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## Eggybread (Nov 19, 2009)

*I wonder if the continuity of the Ennegram scores on the nine types...*

Doesn't do something towards explaining this?

With my own:
4sx
6sp
8sp
5sx
*3sx
+1so
+7so
9sx
2sp

Being an introvert I theorized that the first 4 are something like your most essential self, the fifth score is how you start to present yourself/interact to the other world....but then 1so ("Inadaptibility" between personal values and social situations") comes first (;__; oy. yes.) and then 7so ("Sacrifice" for hope of a better future...something like the only reason I've retained any shred of optimism/hope whatsoever...)

Make any sense?

I'm very fond of the MBTI/Enneagram conjunction, since I see MBTI as more of the 'core' and Ennea as more of the coping mechanism...


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