# Lana del Rey is not a 4



## Thalassa

The compulsive Daddy girl issues are not obedient they're sexual. Lolita, Carmen, and Off to the Races directly reference Vladimir Nabakovs Lolita and also possibly Mermaid Motel and Trash Magic (Miss America)....it's unsettling to me you aren't getting body/ sexual over obedient or social. There's very little of that.


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## Thalassa

Roshan said:


> Thanks for the input. I don't really know why I said the 2 typing only works with sx-first. What I was really having trouble grappling with was how very clear the sp/sx stacking became once it was mentioned by Veiled One (who really is one of the best people with stackings) and reconciling that with the overwhelming desire for "Union/Merging" and the neediness (which is always just below the surface of a 2 and with strong sx, frequently ON the surface). And that actually makes more sense when you put the sp/sx with the tritype I had arrived at, which was 2w3-6w7-9wX. That gives you an extraordinarily strong desire to bond through Enneatype, along with a stacking that is fiercely independent, removed, even antisocial, and gives off a kind of autistic-ish vibe (the veil, the vault).
> 
> I see 6w7 cph more than 7w6. One of the most interesting things about her is how she always goes back to the group in her narrative videos. The motorcycle gang in Ride is a cohesive group more than an arbitrary "band of adventurers" a la 7w6. They have some kind of pledge of loyalty; they're a tribe. (And no pun intended with the Native American headdress at the end but it does get to the point on a symbolic level--that's one of_ many_ implications of the headdress.). sp/sx is epicurean and hedonistic in a 7ish way (the paradox, because it's also 5ishly removed).
> 
> And also she should have at least one reactive fix, no?
> 
> I first got to know Lana's work when someone sent me Ride and it was the version I posted above, without the beginning and end. I'm posting the longer one here; it's the one that really shows that fiercely independent, and also leaning toward the macabre, sp/sx pull, _especially at the end. _(I'll put that one down below though).
> 
> I've also seen Lana's interviews, and I normally focus more on performers' interviews than on their work, but in Lana's case her image and metaphors in her work are so very carefully crafted to give us a picture of who she is, how she sees herself, and what her struggles are (albeit at times hyperbolically, but still... ) that I just can't stay away from them. They are_ so not 4_.
> 
> No, she isn't a full-grown woman. She's a full-grown woman child who puts her name on movie marquees in her videos as "Lana del Rey" in "Fiasco" and identifies with actresses tripping sloppy drunk at the Academy Awards as she seduces us in our "video game" with her. She dresses in baby doll clothing and talks like a child and sits herself on the laps of older men desperately crying, "Don't leave me, Daddy". She's been brave enough to explore publicly that she is in fact a _mess--_or at least until recently was. To see her as mature is to miss the point, and it doesn't do her any favors.
> 
> sp/sx stacking is perhaps the least understood overall and it can do more to "warp" a person's E-type than even the sx firsts. If that stacking isn't ego-syntonic to the primary E-type, you will have a war in your mind, as she sings in Ride, pointing the gun at herself. If Lana is anything, she is unusual. It's the pull between stacking and type that makes her so extraordinary. No one's ever done anything really like what she has before. She's a one-off.
> 
> A very unusual 2. sp/sx 2w3-6w7cph-9w1 (though I haven't completely ruled out 9w8). But also, paradoxically, a very paradigmatic 2.


You think she's an unusual 2 because she's not a 2. She's a detached, floating body oriented 9 and probably an SX dom.. I honestly think anyone who perceived her as anything but an SX dom is possibly psychotic, I mean my god, she's so intense about boyfriends, daddy, girl best friends, being a movie star, she's a sexual 9 with a 1 perfectionist moral streak. 

She's more mature than a lot of people I see. I disagree with your dismissal of her being immature. In reality she is a refreshingly sexual confident female with very little trace of trying to be masculine. This is no Lorde second wave feminist (who *I* personally find over childish aside from others claims of wisdom beyond her years, to me Lorde is the child, pleasing the parents, Lana a fully realized genital phase powerful adult but in femininity not a parody of masculinity).

I think Lana is a sarcastic, ironic old soul. Im your national anthem, you are not getting it.


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## Thalassa

Roshan said:


> @_ShadowPrince_,
> 
> Hadn't even seen your post when I wrote mine.
> 
> When I first saw Ride, there was just no doubt in my mind that this was the archetypal truth-telling of a high sx 2. (What I didn't understand was the sp factor, which now makes perfect sense--especially after having seen the longer version, which I'm posting here, as I said I would). When I saw how many people were typing her as a 4, and in particular who some of them were, I couldn't believe my eyes.


Im a real fan, like the only realer fans who exist are the blonde girlfriend she has or her early Lizzy/May fans...I speak as one of the most authentic Lana del Rey fans who EXIST. I was a fan before Born to Die because of Kinda Outta Luck and You Can Be the Boss, I was a pre SNL YouTube fan. You have to truly examine this human being, but judging her entirely on Ride is missing the point entirely. If you don't know who May Jailer is you have no right typing her. Same with not knowing Carmen is pure Nabokov. 

She's so complex, I understand why people want to throw INFJ at her, "too complex to understand herself". But not a 2. Bad typing.


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## Thalassa

Animal said:


> I know. It's more that .. I suppose I'm being confused (and pulled away from my instincts) by reading Social-4 descriptions.
> Sx-4 is "mad 4" and So-4 is "sad 4" .. etc.
> 
> Why is Sp/Sx tricky?
> 
> Why "if only?"
> 
> 6s are so much sexier..


6s are sexy? - honestly what makes a 6w7 sexy is our "common man/broskini/comrade/cheerleader or quarterback common" flavor combined with a dash of 7 excitement/freedom/glibness/get away from me ness.

I am not joking. I have marketed what I am. That is pretty much the Golden Ticket to sex sells as long as you have one or three attractive features. The above average get laid more than the spectacular, the cream of the average are more exciting than the truly exotic.

This is the advice I give typically to the sad souls lost in PUA.


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## Animal

@_ShadowPrince_



> As for the other examples, I don't have time to analyze them but Kurt Kobain was likely a 4, Elliott Smith could be one but it's difficult to say, Jeff Martin is most certainly not a 4. I'm seeing Sexual 6, though Social 2 or maybe even SP 8 are candidates I'd put before core 4.




Marilyn Manson is far from awkward in interviews. He's extremely on top of his game. Jeff Martin, on the other hand, 






You wouldn't call him awkward?

There are some rare interviews when he's "on" especially when hes in his mid-40s.. but for the most part, he's extremely awkward in interviews and only comes to life on stage.

He's also a seasoned musician, and they get used to being interviewed all the time. Look at his younger interviews. He can hardly figure out what to say and says weird things in an attempt to be funny.






Can't you sense the nervousness?


And how would you compare that to your own 'type 4' - Marilyn Manson?






Look how confident _he_ is in comparison.


The example you brought up is not only untrue, but again, can be attributed to a lot of things besides being a 4 or not.

As for the types you mentioned - Sexual 6 is way off. Do you realize how cerebral 6's are? Amy Lee and Matt Bellamy are great examples of type 6 - Amy Lee, Sx6. Totally different energy in the songs and in the interviews.






Jeff Martin doesn't have head-energy and the glare that cuts you up.. the Sx6 usually has the most intense eyes out of any type, eyes that can kill, because of how much they think, it's like their eyes are the outlet of a storm. Their songs will be more about betrayal and faith.. etc. Jeff Martin's songs don't cover 6ish topics in the way that other musicians of his caliber would do if they were 6s, nor does he look like a 6 in interviews. He's not cerebral like that. And no way he's a 5 or 7 either.

I considered type 8 for him for a long time, but it's funny you would bring him up as an 8, but then use the argument that Bjork can't be a 9 because she is too emotionally intense. Jeff Martin is extremely emotionally intense, even masochistic in his songs and writings - which is why he's so awkward in interviews when trying to be funny. He's a very deep, emotional person, can hardly keep from crying while introducing certain songs and telling the story behind it. 8s, much like 9s, are deadened to their emotions. Sexual 8s can be more passionate and expressive for sure, and I would say that given the level of his expression, Sx8 is the only 8 he could possibly be. But still.. it doesn't explain why he shows so much masochism and surrender and 'begging' in his lyrics but not nearly as much vengeance.

8 is the only other type I've seriously considered for him, but there is a lot that doesn't add up. If he were an 8, he'd be a lot more confident in interviews, even when he was young. I've never seen an 8 fumble around in their own skin like that. 



> It has even less to do with type 9. I get the sense that you discard an entire gestalt in order to focus on something narrow in Bjork's lyrics that suggests merging and love. Did you watch the entire interview? She talks about how all of us have unpredictable mood swings "all the time" and that "it is not our role to try and control that." That's like the opposite stance of a 9, who not only tends to deny moodswings but is actively killing them with psychological narcotization and distractions. 9s are among the most mundane of characters, the typical routin-centered and easily irritable but self-sacrificing "mom" devoting herself to her family/kids like an automaton while 4s, especially Social and Sexual 4s, are on the other side of the polarity. Bjork has a 9-fix though.


Your description of boring self-sacrificing 9s is over-the-top and stereotypical, not truly what 9 is about. In the real world there are 4s who have families and 9s who pursue more glamorous passions. 
However, the idea of Bjork refusing to repress her moodswings and how 9s go through narcotization... this makes sense. I will think about this for a while and get back to you.


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## Dalton

Boogie man said:


> Awkward or stiff? That's it? No other variations possible? They can't appear confident like Jeff does? If that's true, then type 4 must be one of the least varied types of the enneagram typing system...


 @ShadowPrince Some type 4s can be very fluid and earnest with the way they physically carry/express themselves. Only some of them have a terrified facial expression and stiff musculature.

As for an air of confidence, I'm not sure, but I'll check out the video when I can.


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## Thalassa

ShadowPrince said:


> It has even less to do with type 9. I get the sense that you discard an entire gestalt in order to focus on something narrow in Bjork's lyrics that suggests merging and love. Did you watch the entire interview? She talks about how all of us have unpredictable mood swings "all the time" and that "it is not our role to try and control that." That's like the opposite stance of a 9, who not only tends to deny moodswings but is actively killing them with psychological narcotization and distractions. 9s are among the most mundane of characters, the typical routin-centered and easily irritable but self-sacrificing "mom" devoting herself to her family/kids like an automaton while 4s, especially Social and Sexual 4s, are on the other side of the polarity. Bjork has a 9-fix though.
> 
> As for the other examples, I don't have time to analyze them but Kurt Kobain was likely a 4, Elliott Smith could be one but it's difficult to say, Jeff Martin is most certainly not a 4. I'm seeing Sexual 6, though Social 2 or maybe even SP 8 are candidates I'd put before core 4.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can usually tell someone is a 4 because they are either really awkward and sensitive, or they appear like a really stiff 5 and can be mistaken for 9 because their connection to 1 makes people think "9w1".


No one related to the Tea Party is relevant. Ever. "Jeff from the Tea Party" is like the name of a Saturday Night Live skit. No one who would consider living outside of Indiana even thinks the white, old sad Tea Party is even worth a fuck.

Oh so he is probably a 6w5- that is the type of political psychopaths who no one cares about except the people who agree with them (Charles Manson, Eminem, etc...no one likes Eminem except perhaps people who agree with him, even I as a fan honor that, loving a 6w5 is like belonging to a cult).


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## Animal

fourtines said:


> 6s are sexy? - honestly what makes a 6w7 sexy is our "common man/broskini/comrade/cheerleader or quarterback common" flavor combined with a dash of 7 excitement/freedom/glibness/get away from me ness.
> 
> I am not joking. I have marketed what I am. That is pretty much the Golden Ticket to sex sells as long as you have one or three attractive features. The above average get laid more than the spectacular, the cream of the average are more exciting than the truly exotic.
> 
> This is the advice I give typically to the sad souls lost in PUA.


Sixes are intense, often brilliant, and usually a combination of bold and fragile that drives me crazy. They're so human in their fear and need, but then so defiant in how they compensate for it with intelligence and strength and achievement. It's the perfect combination of emotional and strong that turns me on so much..

And their minds..ughdfkghjksdlhg. The labyrinths that sixes build around their hearts and the mazes they make me travel are intoxicating. I can hardly get close to a six without feeling the need to write a book about it, and even after that, I still haven't figured them out.


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## Dalton

[No message]


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## Thalassa

Animal said:


> @_ShadowPrince_
> 
> 
> 
> Marilyn Manson is far from awkward in interviews. He's extremely on top of his game. Jeff Martin, on the other hand,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't call him awkward?
> 
> There are some rare interviews when he's "on" especially when hes in his mid-40s.. but for the most part, he's extremely awkward in interviews and only comes to life on stage.
> 
> He's also a seasoned musician, and they get used to being interviewed all the time. Look at his younger interviews. He can hardly figure out what to say and says weird things in an attempt to be funny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you sense the nervousness?
> 
> 
> And how would you compare that to your own 'type 4' - Marilyn Manson?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look how confident _he_ is in comparison.
> 
> 
> The example you brought up is not only untrue, but again, can be attributed to a lot of things besides being a 4 or not.
> 
> As for the types you mentioned - Sexual 6 is way off. Do you realize how cerebral 6's are? Amy Lee and Matt Bellamy are great examples of type 6 - Amy Lee, Sx6. Totally different energy in the songs and in the interviews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Martin doesn't have head-energy and the glare that cuts you up.. the Sx6 usually has the most intense eyes out of any type, eyes that can kill, because of how much they think, it's like their eyes are the outlet of a storm. Their songs will be more about betrayal and faith.. etc. Jeff Martin's songs don't cover 6ish topics in the way that other musicians of his caliber would do if they were 6s, nor does he look like a 6 in interviews. He's not cerebral like that. And no way he's a 5 or 7 either.
> 
> I considered type 8 for him for a long time, but it's funny you would bring him up as an 8, but then use the argument that Bjork can't be a 9 because she is too emotionally intense. Jeff Martin is extremely emotionally intense, even masochistic in his songs and writings - which is why he's so awkward in interviews when trying to be funny. He's a very deep, emotional person, can hardly keep from crying while introducing certain songs and telling the story behind it. 8s, much like 9s, are deadened to their emotions. Sexual 8s can be more passionate and expressive for sure, and I would say that given the level of his expression, Sx8 is the only 8 he could possibly be. But still.. it doesn't explain why he shows so much masochism and surrender and 'begging' in his lyrics but not nearly as much vengeance.
> 
> 8 is the only other type I've seriously considered for him, but there is a lot that doesn't add up. If he were an 8, he'd be a lot more confident in interviews, even when he was young. I've never seen an 8 fumble around in their own skin like that.
> 
> 
> Your description of boring self-sacrificing 9s is over-the-top and stereotypical, not truly what 9 is about. In the real world there are 4s who have families and 9s who pursue more glamorous passions.
> However, the idea of Bjork refusing to repress her moodswings and how 9s go through narcotization... this makes sense. I will think about this for a while and get back to you.


9s aren't necessarily boring or self sacrificing. They are my idealized type, I have loved more than one sexually, they can actually be complete assholes. All that is important is the empty acceptance of life, the body relationship to life that they express through average emptiness in tv,internet, give peace a chance John Lennon garbage. They are made obvious by their insistence to agree and to love difficult people. That's where I come in. They find me exciting, I like that they refuse to react to my drama. They don't take sides.


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## Animal

fourtines said:


> No one related to the Tea Party is relevant. Ever. "Jeff from the Tea Party" is like the name of a Saturday Night Live skit. No one who would consider living outside of Indiana even thinks the white, *old sad Tea Party* is even worth a fuck.


What exactly makes someone "Worth" a fuck?

Is it talent? Or is it how many people in America want to fuck them? Is it how many networks show them?

Tea Party wasn't always "old, sad" etc. It happens to everyone eventually. The only reason they're going strong now while they're "old" is because they have actual talent and substance beyond their looks and youth. 






Jeff Martin was pretty hot when he was young. 



> Oh so he is probably a 6w5- that is the type of political psychopaths who no one cares about except the people who agree with them (Charles Manson, Eminem, etc...no one likes Eminem except perhaps people who agree with him, even I as a fan honor that, loving a 6w5 is like belonging to a cult).


...what? lol. He is not a 6.. and how the fuck does being in a cult have to do with loving a 6w5..

There is nothing cultish about him. His song topics are universal and he doesn't have a cultish point to prove. Where you got that reading is ... impossible to comprehend. He is also not into politics. The fliers to his shows lately have said "Music, no politics!" ??



Dalton said:


> I don't feel sorry for calling you out on your bullshit:
> 1. "The Tea Party" is a Canadian band, not from Indiana.


Yup, they live in Australia now and have a huge, huge following too. And anyone who is into real music (as opposed to pop) in any country has heard of them.


> 2. Why aren't they EVER relevant? Why should popularity matter in any discussion unless it is explicitly about popularity?
> 3. Do you get off on being a hateful bitch? You're rudely shooting down other people because of their niche interests. FUCK. OFF.


Yeah.. pretty much.


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## Thalassa

Dalton said:


> I don't feel sorry for calling you out on your bullshit:
> 1. "The Tea Party" is a Canadian band, not from Indiana.
> 2. Why aren't they EVER relevant? Why should popularity matter in any discussion unless it is explicitly about popularity?
> 3. Do you get off on being a hateful bitch? You're rudely shooting down other people because of their niche interests. FUCK. OFF.


I think there is something wrong with you. The Tea Party is an annoying psychotic far right wing political movement in the United States, not a niche musical interest. Telling me to fuck off is like shouting at a grizzly bear, stupid and pointless. If you are especially concerned about a musician, you and I not even speaking the same language. You must be Canadian. Any American would understand the Tea Party is something much more offensive than a pretentious band.


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## Animal

Dalton said:


> @_ShadowPrince_ Some type 4s can be very fluid and earnest with the way they physically carry/express themselves. Only some of them have a terrified facial expression and stiff musculature.


I agree with this. Look at Johnny Depp, for instance - he's a 4 and he moves very fluidly.



> As for an air of confidence, I'm not sure, but I'll check out the video when I can.


I don't think Jeff Martin looks "confident" at all except when he's on stage doing his thing. That was part of what pulled me away from typing him at 8, as I did initially on a whim. Not to mention that he sings about type 4 themes.. shows way too much emotion all the time to be an 8.. etc.


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## Animal

fourtines said:


> I think there is something wrong with you. The Tea Party is an annoying psychotic far right wing political movement in the United States, not a niche musical interest. Telling me to fuck off is like shouting at a grizzly bear, stupid and pointless. If you are especially concerned about a musician, you and I not even speaking the same language. You must be Canadian. Any American would understand the Tea Party is something much more offensive than a pretentious band.


The Tea Party - BAND - was around before the right wing movement in America. It was an unfortunate circumstance for them that the movement in America sprouted up and thus associated their band with politics that had nothing to do with their intentions. They've been around since the late 80s.


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## Thalassa

Animal said:


> What exactly makes someone "Worth" a fuck?
> 
> Is it talent? Or is it how many people in America want to fuck them? Is it how many networks show them?
> 
> Tea Party wasn't always "old, sad" etc. It happens to everyone eventually. The only reason they're going strong now while they're "old" is because they have actual talent and substance beyond their looks and youth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff Martin was pretty hot when he was young.
> 
> 
> ...what? lol. He is not a 6.. and how the fuck does being in a cult have to do with loving a 6w5..
> 
> There is nothing cultish about him. His song topics are universal and he doesn't have a cultish point to prove. Where you got that reading is ... impossible to comprehend. He is also not into politics. The fliers to his shows lately have said "Music, no politics!" ??
> 
> 
> Yup, they live in Australia now and have a huge, huge following too. And anyone who is into real music (as opposed to pop) in any country has heard of them.
> 
> 
> Yeah.. pretty much.


Ok now I understand you guys are a joke talking about a band.

If you were American you would understand the Tea Party is something deeply harmful and offensive. Are you also fans of bands called Hitler Youth and Jihad Plane Crash?


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## Animal

fourtines said:


> Ok now I understand you guys are a joke talking about a band.
> 
> If you were American you would understand the Tea Party is something deeply harmful and offensive. Are you also fans of bands called Hitler Youth and Jihad Plane Crash?


See my previous post.
I am an American.

I can see you've been brainwashed by the left-wing media. "Deeply harmful and offensive?" Relating it to Hitler and Jihad plane crash? Wow. Did you know one of CNN's reporters came out recently and admitted that Obama & administration pay them to report certain information and twist stories in Obama's favor? That's a lot more similar to Hitler tactics than anything the Tea Party has done.

As for the band, they have no association whatsoever with the current political movement. They have been around since the 80s and the movement only sprung up in the last decade or so.


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## Daeva

lol, @*fourtines*, no one except you is talking about politics here. The Tea Party movement =/= the band.


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## Thalassa

Animal said:


> The Tea Party - BAND - was around before the right wing movement in America. It was an unfortunate circumstance for them that the movement in America sprouted up and thus associated their band with politics that had nothing to do with their intentions. They've been around since the late 80s.


Ok I don't know about them, and I listen to all kinds of music ....I don't care honestly. This thread is about LANA DEL REY.

Be young, be dope, be proud, like an American.


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## Thalassa

Boogie man said:


> lol, @*fourtines*, no one except you is talking about politics here. The Tea Party movement =/= the band.


They should change the name of their band out of shame.

I mean, Joy Division became New Order.


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## Roshan

fourtines said:


> The compulsive Daddy girl issues are not obedient they're sexual. Lolita, Carmen, and Off to the Races directly reference Vladimir Nabakovs Lolita and also possibly Mermaid Motel and Trash Magic (Miss America)....it's unsettling to me you aren't getting body/ sexual over obedient or social. There's very little of that.



I refer to this post and the two following ones of yours.

Oh, I do get body/sexual, and exactly in that order. That's the order of sp/sx, not sx/sp. As for obedient, I never said that word once. I referred to the "compliant triad". And as for social, I'm typing her social last. _You are reading things that aren't there_. (What type does that sound like, btw?)

I originally assumed that Lana couldn't be anything but sx first and I found the sp first typing startling. (But that's a far cry from finding it "psychotic". The Enneagram is far too much art, not science, for anyone to be called "crazy" because of some...typing they may hold...). The only reason I took it seriously at all was because of who it came from, which, to repeat, is Veiled One, who is one of the best people around regarding stackings and who's written a number of the descriptors which are going around the various sites, unfortunately without crediting her. I realized she was right. Not only right, but obviously so, if you look at what the stackings actually _mean_ and _do, _how they _manifest, _as opposed to what ideas we attach to the words that are used (map not territory) to describe them.

Sp first is the stacking with the most boundaries and sx first is the one with the least. These boundaries are physical and psychic, and they're observable in movement, gesture, expression and themes in a person's life and the themes they choose to express themselves creatively. It's the most autonomous stacking and the one which gives her the sense of independence throughout all the extreme quest for bonding, union, relatedness and/or neediness she often portrays, and it's also the most hedonistic and _the most sexual_ in the purely carnal sense. 

Lana has an "autistic-ish" affect that I had originally, when seeing her as sx-first, ascribed to a 5w4 fix, but it's far more elemental than that. Because it's in the stacking, the physical, energetic self, not the E-type (more like the personality, speaking very loosely, of course). I linked clips in my third post on this thread as classic sp/sx and said it doesn't get more sp/sx than that. _And it doesn't. _I am most certainly not typing her based only, or even almost only, on Ride. I have studied this woman a lot. I've posted far more than Ride in this thread and I explained why I wasn't using interviews or anything else from "real life" (other than the video of her comforting the fan) though I usually do, but I could. Maybe I will.

Be that as it may, I can think of almost nothing less sx 9 than the end of the complete version of Ride. And she made it, and it is a brilliant and enduring testament to NON-Union, at least as understood in the 9ish sense. Nevertheless, I'm not (implicitly or explicitly) calling you an idiot or psychotic for typing her that way. I'm also not saying you have "no right to type her". But you have to jump through at least as many hoops to make her the paradigmatic sx 9 as you perceive I (and others) are jumping through in seeing her as a 2 and/or sp/sx. 

You're far too invested in your own ego identifications with this woman to be objective and you're justifying your reactivity in the name of 'truth' in a way that's borderline abusive. It's impossible to take seriously but it's also impossible to ignore. You think you know her better than us psychotics who don't see it all your way but in your particular case, the knowledge you have is making all kinds of _projection_ and _reactivity_ kick in, with a _dependency_ on your beliefs being ultimately right . I'm not surprised you're "unsettled" by my typing. I wouldn't be surprised if underneath that there was real fear. You're very Sixishly attached to your _beliefs_ about your _hero_. 

So, to repeat, your over-investment is making you far from the candidate for "most objective because most knowledgeable". Even if you were right (which you're most likely not; one of the ONLY good things about the 4 typing is that she appears to fall very squarely in the image triad), you'd still be wrong. Nobody is psychotic for not seeing Lana as sx first. Or for not seeing _anyone_ as _any _particular type in _any _system. So cool it, would you please.

*****

ps Nabakov's Lolita is an sp/sx novel and the female type most likely to identify with it would be what E-type?


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> I don't usually type musicians unless I follow them closely - at which point I'm quite attached to my typings. I do serious work on them!
> 
> This one- I can tell you off the bat she is NOT a 4.
> 
> My first instinct when I heard her was type 6, but i'm willing to be wrong. I'll have to get more into her stuff to give a better analysis. But no, definitely not 4. People are just silly and insist on typing every musician at 4.
> 
> Fiona Apple - a 7w6SX often typed at 4.
> Tori Amos - 7w6 often typed at 4.
> Trent Reznor - clear 5w4.
> Bjork is a 9w1. NOT a 5 or a 4, no friggin way.
> Bob Dylan is a 6. Not a 4 either.
> Lady Gaga - 7w6, 6w7 or 3 (not sure yet) but NOT 4, no friggin way.
> Amy Lee (Evanescence) - Type 6 Sx
> ....
> 
> 
> All of the above are often typed at 4 though.
> Wtf?


*Fiona Apple *seems very clearly sx on the 6/7 line from even just a cursory glance at the several interviews I've just clicked on; seeing one of them through to the end did nothing whatsoever to counter that. She gives some of the headiest interviews I've ever seen. More to come on that on the new thread http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...64722-kate-bjork-tori-regina-also-not-4s.html.

*Tori,* currently agreeing on sx 7w6-9w1-4w3.

*Reznor,* agree, clearly 5w4.

*Bjork,* currently agree 9w1; still think 5w4 is a far better second possiblity than 4. Also think she warrants further detailed discussion as she is absolutely unique. But not in the 4ish way of trying to be; "soul-searching" search for self is notably absent. Major concerns are with union/knowledge. She is incredibly optimistic. But whatever serious discussion would reveal about her--whether corroborating the 9, or not--it would be helpful for the future of typing in general. Healthy 5 could come to that level of optimism through the mind and other explorations of reality, like Alex Gray. Healthy 4, I doubt it. Unashamed, they continue to be tellers of the view that the ultimate fate of "this mortal coil" (death, our individual dissolution) must still be fundamentally seen as a tragedy.To do less is to disrespect the value of each individual's story.

*Dylan* is something with a lot of 5. Anything between 4w5 and 6w5 is possible (except 5w6). There are actually reasons to favor the 4w5 hypothesis, though, about which more to come. 

4 for *Lady Gaga *is one of the worst possible typings ever. Anyone who makes it doesn't understand the Enneagram in depth AT ALL and/or or never watched a single interview. This documentary interview points very, very strongly to 6w7 for a number of reasons. Other possibilities are 3 and 7w6. 2 has been given and 2 is highly unlikely but it makes far more sense than 4. Currently I see Stephanie as a healthy sx/soc triangle--6-3-9--that is, the most ordinary "Everyman" with the most extraordinary culturally revolutionary sense of mission. Which is for being a catalyst for being unique to become something in the grasp of every ordinary person. That is the anti-4.

People do not understand what "strength and beauty 6" means. I'm not even sure Stephanie has a 3w4 fix; it could be 3w2. Strength and Beauty 6 means your body becomes your system. How you work it, how you hold it, what you put on it, what you say with it. sx 6 does that on its own; it doesn't require elements from the 4-1 line to chronically make extreme aesthetic statements with the body. 

I'm not wedded to my typing of her though. But whatever type she is in here somewhere. Especially note the huge amount of anxiety she had in the clips before she took off her clothes in the small gig in the Village and figured out the winning formula to fight the Fame Monster in the public eye.






*Amy Lee*, agree with you. sx 6w7. 4-fixer, among other things, makes a very different kind from Gaga.

So, right, "wtf. Why are they all typed at 4?" 

To start off with, because 4 is called things like "The Artist", and even worse, "The Individualist". The Individualist (RH's term) is just terrible. This conjures up a sense of "The Rugged Individualist" which is an American myth stemming from the Old West 8/cph 6w5 lone wolf cowboy/pioneer semi-outlaw. This has nothing to do with the fundamental existential reality of Type 4, which is that they suffer from a "lack of embodiment" through living in the imagination.

The closest you will get to a hale and hardy 4 is something like *Siouxsie Sioux*--one of the great and truly important icons of the punk era--who is something close to an sx/soc 4w3-7w8-8w7. Siouxsie can scream and rant and bully people all she likes in her gravelly voice; her porcelain fragility, her fundamental lack of embodiment--the tenuous status of her sense of Self within the world of solid objects-- will still shine through. Or better said, _*bleed*_ through.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sio...DLsATDpIGQCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1309&bih=732

Then we come to the Gagas of the world who are so resolutely_ in it--_​who perceive themselves as fundamentally OF and IN and FOR _this _world, as it is, here and now--and I agree, wtf.


----------



## drmiller100

One side note, and I promise not to derail again.

I am libertarian, often confused with tea party. Libertarian and Tea Party in my opinion are the antithesis of racist. We believe in individual rights trumping government, and believe bigger government is always bad government. Most of us believe people should have the right to do whatever they want in their private lives, including but not limited to gay marriage, equal rights for LGBT in all matters, freedom of religion, freedom to do whatever drugs you choose, freedom of choice regarding abortion, etc etc etc.

I find it ironic people brush all tea party as bigots with identical shortcomings. By definition, bigotry is "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.." (google library). 

I'm happy being me, and I'll fight for other people's rights as well.

G'day!


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Roshan said:


> People do not understand what "strength and beauty 6" means. I'm not even sure Stephanie has a 3w4 fix; it could be 3w2. Strength and Beauty 6 means your body becomes your system. How you work it, how you hold it, what you put on it, what you say with it. sx 6 does that on its own; it doesn't require elements from the 4-1 line to chronically make extreme aesthetic statements with the body.


I gotta admit, the "strength and beauty" thing for sx 6 was never something that quite clicked for me, and it still doesn't. Although this topic isn't about type 6, so...



> The closest you will get to a hale and hardy 4 is something like *Siouxsie Sioux--one of the great and truly important icons of the punk era--who is something close to an sx/soc 4w3-7w8-8w7. Siouxsie can scream and rant and bully people all she likes in her gravelly voice; her porcelain fragility, her fundamental lack of embodiment--the tenuous status of her sense of Self within the world of solid objects-- will still shine through. Or better said, bleed through.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=siou...w=1309&bih=732
> 
> Then we come to the Gagas of the world who are so resolutely in it--​who perceive themselves as fundamentally OF and IN and FOR this world, as it is, here and now--and I agree, wtf.*


^This is interesting, though, since I was talking about the withdrawn triad with someone earlier. I don't know much about Sioux, and I'm not too invested in Gaga so idk much about her outside of her music, but I think I get what you're saying... 4 is a withdrawn type, after all, which doesn't just mean being reserved or shy etc, but more a sort of detachement (I think...). And what you're saying here does seem to explain how this works for type 4.


----------



## Paradigm

Superfluous said:


> Anyone else got more an elaborate take on SP/SX 6?


Well... If you have any specific questions, I can try to answer. I'm 6w7 sp/sx.

Can't really participate in the celebrity discussion, though. Pop culture goes over my head.


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## Roshan

double post del


----------



## Roshan

Kink said:


> I gotta admit, the "strength and beauty" thing for sx 6 was never something that quite clicked for me, and it still doesn't. Although this topic isn't about type 6, so...


The topic is about whatever you want it to be that's related to whatever comes up and sticks with the Enneagram. Taking things strictly in isolation doesn't help. Anyway, you can't know what a thing is (foreground) without knowing the background and what it's not.

Male beauty 6, most likely 6w7-4w3-9w8 sx/sp, who with his most likely sp/sx 6w5-4w5-9w1 extremely withdrawn wife, had to micromanage every single aspect of the image and the environment in synch with the 'concept' of of the band. He called most of the shots. They were the "White Stripes" and everything just had to look like peppermint candy. There were only three colors allowed--red, white, and black. Then they played ironically with the 'concept' of the Whites--were they brother and sister, married, something else? Their physicality and their relationship--their very being n the world--became the picture book on which the concept of The White Stripes was written. The physicality of sx 6 is their system. Just like the bullfight.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jac...oAw&biw=1366&bih=667#tbm=isch&q=white+stripes

In fact a discussion of sx 6w7 would be very helpful for understanding why Lana del Rey can't be that leading, though she certainly is that as a strong head fix. In fact, the only reason I originally had her as 5w4-fixed was to account for the autistic-ish removed quality that is so pervasive when I thought she must be sx-first (in particular sx/soc, a bad typing). Once I realized she was sp/sx 6w7 was crystal clear. And in fact she does use her body as her system, but it's not the primary fix. She is clearly an image type and clearly NOT withdrawn--that is, on the 2/3 line (assertive/compliant). She is not a head type.


----------



## Roshan

sx 6

https://www.google.com/search?q=fla...a=X&ei=7mtGVKKtPLiCsQSj6YLIDw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

https://www.google.com/search?q=flamenco&biw=1366&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7mtGVKKtPLiCsQSj6YLIDw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=bullfight

https://www.google.com/search?q=jac...=isch&q=white+stripes+elephant&revid=13568327

https://www.google.com/search?q=jac...=1366&bih=667#tbm=isch&q=jack+white+interview


----------



## Roshan

But take any interview with Jack White and compare it with his almost tritype twin, sx/sp Annie Lennox, who has 4w3 leading and a strong head fix (probably 6w5, and also 9w1, which tends to add to headiness whereas 9w8 detracts from it). Beyond the mesmerizing quality of the strongly 4-fixed sx/sp stacking, you will see that Jack is _right there_ and a r_egular guy. _He's an attachment type. Annie is somewhere else. Self-consciousness, uniqueness, and introspection are primary issues for Annie, not for Jack. Much less Lady Gaga, who isn't sx/sp and is probably not even 4-fixed. 







Annie on this thread toward the bottom of the first page.

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/364722-they-4s.html


----------



## Roshan

More sx 6 shenanigans, body as canvas for the systems of the mind. Nina Hagen, extremely counterphobic most likely 6w7-8w9-4w3 triple reactive sx/soc. The "wide open" quality of the sx/soc as opposed to the simmering quality of the sx/sp in Jack. Also interesting because she is being interviewed by an sx LAST 6 but they commune as two attaching heads. Both "right there". And Nina controls her body and image in the "strength and beauty" head way but the compulsive seduction of Lana del Rey is absent. She "attaches" through an egalitarian relatedness. There is no entrenched, base metabolism of seduction as with Lana, strong sx 2.






Notice when she walks in how she's like the puppeteer of her own body. The image-obsession of the strength and/or beauty 6 is mental; the sx 2's image obsession is organic--there's no distance from it. Puppet and puppeteer are one. It's just there.


----------



## Roshan

With sx/soc it starts to get closer to Marilyn with that wide-openness. And I do think the standard typing of Marilyn is correct. Loosely speaking, Marilyn would have been a phobic 6w7, and on the beauty side of strength and/or beauty. I do think she had a 2w3 fix. So seduction was a natural mode for Marilyn, but image wasn't. I wonder if she ever moved a finger in public without in some sense having to think about it. Marilyn was also "right there" but not "right at home" in the body. The body image was a house she was consciously having to build, at every moment, a system. Lana's body/image is extremely organic. It's a pre-furnished mansion that she continually adds things to, with a, comparatively, remarkable lack of anxiety.






Not speaking about the Saturday Night Live fiasco when Lana just wasn't ready to sing live and everything went wrong. Speaking in general about how Lana is at home with image as an image triader (and not a withdrawn one, that's the sp/sx). At least that's where I am right now in my view of these things.


----------



## DomNapoleon

Lady Gaga is an obvious 7w6.


----------



## Roshan

Part of the problem with "strength and beauty" for sx 6 is that it isn't "strength and beauty". It's strength and/or beauty.


----------



## Roshan

Mandraque said:


> Lady Gaga is an obvious 7w6.


Why?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, it's also possible to "type on the line". She is most likely on the 6/7 line. If you listen to the full interview above, there are some things which point strongly to the 6 side. The one that strikes me the most is her exhortations of Madonna for being "brave". There are other interviews where bravery is a theme. Then there is her extreme identification with the group. I can think of an sx/soc 7w6 (3w4-9w1) who I knew very well, who was also very attached to forming and being the center of a culturally revolutionary artistic group--which he accomplished, but attached without the kind of attachment Gaga conveys. Her attachment is _personal, _his was impersonal, and it's as though she would have no identity without them. There isn't a sense of ad hoc "band of adventurers"; there's a sense of specific need for a specifci close-knit family.And there is also the extreme complexification of her body persona. Compare Freddy Mercury (7w6 sx/soc). We are the champions and the body image is also the landscape for the mind, but it's all far more off-the-cuff.

As I said, I'm not wedded to my typing of Gaga; she might not even be sx/soc. She could even be sx last. I find her very unusual, almost as unusual as Lana del Rey. Both seem to have a stacking that is at odds with the tritype and that is creating something very atypical. Lana I have 2-6-9 sp/sx and Gaga I have on the triangle sx/soc. I find her very ordinary doing very big things. It could be 7w6--the sense of the element of _danger _of the sx 6 is rather lacking. But from her own reporting of the themes that have ruled her life, there is an awful lot of Six.

And on the softer side, like Marilyn, "danger" can also transmit as vulnerability, and I do find Gaga vulnerable in her own way. She's like a little girl dressing up in her mother's clothes.


----------



## Roshan

@_Mandraque_ ,

Did you watch the documentary on Gaga?

I didn't even realize when I mentioned Freddy that of course he's one of Gaga's main influences and her name comes from his song. But Freddy, it's very clear from interviews, was absolutely and fundamentally an unabashed glutton. I don't see gluttony as a theme for Gaga. It's about community and work first. She seems far more an "Engaged Person". (Healthy 6). Freddy was also that--and he's one of my favorite people in the entire world--but he was an "Engaged Glutton"

Gaga feels like triangle people to me. Not a frustration type.

Freddy the Glutton. The Ecstatic Appreciator. "I don't want to change the world", "The most important thing for me in life is to have fun". If he's happy, the fans are happy, and he's changing the world. Not to say all 7s are like that but Gaga is like the antithesis of it. "Engagment" is Gaga's dominant mode. If she's a 7, she's not the same stacking as Freddy, who almost definitely was sx/soc. Perhaps soc/sp then, which is culturally revolutionary and larger than life in its own way. 







This man did much to revolutionize the world (youth) but one thing he didn't do was form a non-profit organization for people below the age of 30 to contribute to social causes in any way they felt necessary while feeling "safe" asserting their individuality. SAFETY is a huge theme for Gaga.






If not 6 I could still also see a healthy 3 for Gaga as much as 7. 3 integrated to 6. Outstanding Paragon (model of emulation for society) in touch with the unconscious security needs of the 6 "soul child" of the 3; also healthy 3 is The Authentic Person. _She just feels so Attachment to me.
_
Not saying she isn't a 7, just saying that if you watched the documentary, didn't anything strike you as odd about that typing?


----------



## Roshan

Beauty 6.

This is one of my closest friends. Also knows the Enneagram and is definitely 6w7-4w3-9w1 soc/sx triple doubter with very strong sx. She runs an "alternative" fashion magazine. I wish there were more photos of her on google. I might even put them up on Pinterest or something. Very clear beauty 6. Nothing strong about her. Mind you, she isn't sx first but she has some of the Marilyn quality. And her appearance is extraordinarily contrived, far more than this photo shows, and she has a wardrobe the size of Gaga's, and it all always has to be perfectly coordinated, and she always looks perfect and never seems quite at home in any of it.

https://a3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/10/97694efba26040d690db9e9f7fcd9e63/300x300.jpg


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## Roshan

Found others online.

https://a1-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/68/3a8e9cd4753bbe21ffe24cb41c773f6c/300x300.jpg

https://a1-images.myspacecdn.com/images03/24/795e5f1993d949519e94e4b13c616e3b/300x300.jpg

Never seems quite at home in any of it. Unlike Lana who, Saturday Night Live debacle aside, always seems quite at home in all of it. Image type, not head type.

Mind you, the difference can be subtle, but sx 2 seduction/aggression is very clearly a home base for Lana. (sp/sx with strong sx). I wonder if she is not seduction/aggression, then who is?

I was told I shouldn't type Lana exclusively from Ride, and I'm not, but the problem is that Lana made Ride and no one else ever made anything remotely like it. Ride is the seduction/aggression wet dream of a strong sx, strong sp 2, not an sx 6 (and certainly not an sx 9). And so is Tropico. And I can't imagine a 6 or a 9 making them.

If I'd seen anything in her affect in interviews or anything she said that went against that I'd change the typing. But most everything corroborates it. And I'm aware that she's said what's most like her irl is Video Games. But Video Games is the domestic version, the real life version, of the strong sx, strong sp 2. Ride and Paradiso and "Gangsta Nancy Sinatra" are the archetypal versions of it, with the Holy Idea of Freedom. If I just give enough, I'll get back enough, and then I'll be free. If I take care of the sx needs of the entire motorcycle gang and the worst juvenile delinquent in Los Angeles County, I'll go to heaven.

Holy Madonna/Whore is an sx TWO archetype, not Six. The Virgin and the Magdalene are TWOS, not Sixes.

Yes, Marilyn came close, but ultimately she wore the archetype awkwardly. And possibly it killed her. Ain't gonna kill Lana, I assure you. Also Marilyn was a star in the 50's and 60's when this was a conventional role for women. Lana _chose_ this SX kitten seduction/agression wet dream archetype in the 21st century.

And Pride? omg.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg#tbm=isch&q=lana+del+rey+sexy


----------



## Roshan

Casting herself as Jackie Kennedy next to an Obamafied reincarnation of Jack at Dallas--casting herself as the First Lady; constantly exploring herself as the seductress and support of a powerful man, choosing over and over to be Marilyn singing Happy Birthday, Mr. President a half-century after the fact...this is a TWO's wet dream, not a Six's. Or a Nine's. Four isn't even on the table (although she is a Two who moves incessantly between Four and Eight in core dynamics, but that's another story... or perhaps the whole story, but whatever...).

I didn't say a 6 or a 9 won't identify with her, or identify her with what they perceive they need from people of those types--those are her fixes after all. They may identify with the things she makes...

_*but she makes them.*_


----------



## Roshan

@_Mandraque_ ,

The entire "About" description of the Born This Way Foundation from facebook:

*Led by Lady Gaga & her mother Cynthia, Born This Way Foundation will build a youth empowered, braver and kinder world.

*https://www.facebook.com/bornthiswayfoundation

Not something her gluttony namesake Radio Gaga Freddy would've conceptualized. To me, this is triangle stuff with 6 leading. Combination of hero 6 and paragon 3. Not all that far from Oprah, probably 3w2-6w7-8w9 so/sp.

And not to say that 7s don't start foundations either. The Peace Corps I believe is one of them. Just not with such overt themes of bravery and self as figurehead for emulation.



*


*


----------



## Roshan

A cursory stroll down the memes posted by Gaga's foundation on their facebook page yields, in the first few seconds:

"I think a hero is any person really intent on making this a better place for all people."--Maya Angelou

"Be kind. Be brave".

And also this:

_Born This Way Foundation shared a link:

_*Want to learn what it was like at our first Born Brave Retreat? Check out this blog from two of our campers: Soua Thao & Danasia Eubanks.

*.....

This is not an Ecstatic Aprreciator. This is a Valient Hero.


----------



## Animal

I could see Lady Gaga as a 6w7. I'm going to think about that. She is definitely heroic and has a tendency to speak as "the voice of the everyman/woman" .. her "little monsters."


----------



## star tripper

Yeah Selena the person could be sx-last. Just her music drips with sx. Funnily enough, I think Lana comes off as so to the naked eye in a similar respect. I remember reading a post once that analyzed the writing styles of different stackings. The poster juxtaposed Lana with Muse and argued Lana makes so/sx music while Muse makes sx/so music. The idea is that so-doms intentionally craft an image affiliated with a group whole sx-doms tend to accidentally knick ideas off of their idols. Lana wants to be seen as a "gangster Nancy Sinatra" while Muse sincerely doesn't realize how much they copy Radiohead.

Don't know if I buy the post but it does raise questions about how writing styles can influence image. My mind goes to, of course, Guns N' Roses whose influences one can identify right off the bat -- namely the Rolling Stones and Aerosmith. They're definitely the next in lineage so to speak, the children of 'smith and the grandchildren of the Stones. That would certainly put them in the sexual camp (which... duh). On the social spectrum, I would probably put forth Paramore, a band that really grasps the concept of group affiliation. They started out firmly as pop-punk before evolving (or eroding depending on your taste) into this bizarre Gwen Stefani-like pop group. I could see them building archetypes and then the music that follows.

However, with this logic, Avril Lavigne would have to be social and well...


----------



## Dangerose

star tripper said:


> You know, funnily enough, I absolutely cannot see Selena as sx-last and I never even considered the possibility lol. I always saw Selena as one of the only overtly sx artists on Top 40 radio for the simple reason that her music tends to be _obsessive_. She sings of channeling all her energy into one person and being exhausted and beaten down and broken. If there's one celebrity relationship I ever believed was real, it's definitely hers with Justin's. You get the sense from her music that the apple of her eye totally overpowers her... which I GUESS could be seen as sx-last because she had absolutely no control but I dunno. Her music is just very HIM-centric. It's all for him.
> 
> Compare to Taylor Swift who I believe is truly sx-last. Her music doesn't feel like it was written FOR the subject in her songs. They're written partially for herself and partially for her fans. She leaves little clues in her liner notes to help fans figure out who the guy is. She uses the guys to paint herself as a victim. It's never actually about HIM.
> 
> But The Heart Wants What It Wants feels like it was crafted both for Selena and Justin. I'm not deluded enough to think she didn't want a hit song or anything, but there's an intimate focus to it even when she directs lyrics at outsiders ("Save your advice cuz I won't hear"). All of her songs feel more... exclusive, like we're intruding on a couple... even in Hands to Myself. There's a voyeuristic quality to listening to her music. Like we're privy to a young woman falling off the wagon. I vaguely remember stories about how her friends had to literally guard her on the red carpet to keep her from going back to Justin. Mind you, this is generally the way all people work when they're in love, so perhaps it shouldn't be filed away as evidence, but still it's an interesting point. Especially when we compare to Taylor who broke up with someone she was presumably crazy about because the media made fun of her.
> 
> Dunno. I guess I could see the argument that because Selena's men practically engulf her she's sx-last (can't handle it), but her ability to constantly recreate intimacy is too consistent for sx-last imo. I also don't know if I could see so in her at all considering she is Taylor's best friend but doesn't consider herself as part of the 'skwad.' She's ostensibly maintained she's TAYLOR'S friend and just vaguely knows the others.
> 
> Mind you, I really don't know much about Selena but that's how her music and persona come across to me. I can accept the idea that she just happens to have taste in music that comes across intimately. But imo her music is much too insular to be sx-last.





mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, her music doesn't feel sx-last, but in interviews, I could see Selena being sx-last. I'm pretty sure she's a 2. And like we were saying about how 2 itself is a sx-type. Star tripper made the same argument I was going to make that Taylor feels a lot more sx-last. Though, what she says about Selena could apply to any 2, and I wouldn't see Selena as so-last. I think she's probably a ISFJ 269.


Huh, ok, thanks!

Selena's music comes off to me as kinda...posed and...I guess I never really believed it, didn't listen that much though. I might just be prejudiced by the type of music she sings, idk, Rihanna-esque repetitive choruses sound...uninspired to me, but I haven't paid enough attention. Guess I can buy it.

Taylor . . . I'm not sure, I thought she was sx-last for a while but I've gone back to so/sx. I didn't know that about the liner notes for example, and that does make sense but . . . her music feels more labile and believably...idk, desperate...than Selena's for example. Definitely so-first imo but I do think it's not sx-last...

This song for example, not only is the expression pretty...italicized, but the musical sound is quite 3-dimensional and enveloping.






And this is convincing sx+line to 8 acting to me: 


















Ariana Grande I also see typed as 2? Don't really follow her either but I can see sx 



star tripper said:


> Yeah Selena the person could be sx-last. Just her music drips with sx. Funnily enough, I think Lana comes off as so to the naked eye in a similar respect. I remember reading a post once that analyzed the writing styles of different stackings. The poster juxtaposed Lana with Muse and argued Lana makes so/sx music while Muse makes sx/so music. The idea is that so-doms intentionally craft an image affiliated with a group whole sx-doms tend to accidentally knick ideas off of their idols. Lana wants to be seen as a "gangster Nancy Sinatra" while Muse sincerely doesn't realize how much they copy Radiohead.
> 
> Don't know if I buy the post but it does raise questions about how writing styles can influence image. My mind goes to, of course, Guns N' Roses whose influences one can identify right off the bat -- namely the Rolling Stones and Aerosmith. They're definitely the next in lineage so to speak, the children of 'smith and the grandchildren of the Stones. That would certainly put them in the sexual camp (which... duh). On the social spectrum, I would probably put forth Paramore, a band that really grasps the concept of group affiliation. They started out firmly as pop-punk before evolving (or eroding depending on your taste) into this bizarre Gwen Stefani-like pop group. I could see them building archetypes and then the music that follows.
> 
> However, with this logic, Avril Lavigne would have to be social and well...


Oh, this is really interesting!
I've taken it for granted that Lana is sp/sx because she's so...scoopy...but lately I've been wondering about social instinct, maybe not first but...she certainly likes to evoke a certain social era...but maybe just as a background. If 'sp' is really 'atmosphere' then sp still makes sense

Tbh I don't know enough about musical styles and who someone might be trying/not trying to evoke, but this will be a interesting thing to chew over

btw star tripper, saw you mention Ritchie Blackmore/Blackmore's Night, I know absolutely nothing about Deep Purple or any of that, but I am curious if you have any Enneagram opinion about Blackmore's Night's music?

I thought 279 and . . . I used to think sx-first lol but now I'd guess so/sp?

unless sp is atmosphere, then I guess sp-first...*is atmosphere sp?*


* *






















Anyways, thanks for the response, I don't have much to add or say but it was interesting to read


----------



## Animal

@*Twist of Fate*
Interesting - I will look into 2 for Emilie.  My knowledge and experience with enneagram has grown a lot since then.

I will get back to you when I have a chance. feel free to tag me again in a while if I forget.


----------



## star tripper

Twist of Fate said:


> Huh, ok, thanks!
> 
> Selena's music comes off to me as kinda...posed and...I guess I never really believed it, didn't listen that much though. I might just be prejudiced by the type of music she sings, idk, Rihanna-esque repetitive choruses sound...uninspired to me, but I haven't paid enough attention. Guess I can buy it.
> 
> Taylor . . . I'm not sure, I thought she was sx-last for a while but I've gone back to so/sx. I didn't know that about the liner notes for example, and that does make sense but . . . her music feels more labile and believably...idk, desperate...than Selena's for example. Definitely so-first imo but I do think it's not sx-last...
> 
> This song for example, not only is the expression pretty...italicized, but the musical sound is quite 3-dimensional and enveloping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is convincing sx+line to 8 acting to me:


Haha! I'm not a Selena fan by any stretch of the imagination but her music definitely comes across more sincerely and less posed than Taylor's for me. Taylor's music feels prepackaged, like she has a breakup song fleshed out before the purported relationship ever even began. Taylor's music is sonically less trend-chasing than Selena's for sure... but I find the lyrics too "pristine" to be believable. Not pristine like good (I will fight people who say a songwriter who rhymed "bad blood" with "do-one" rather than "have done" is mediocre at best) but pristine like she has a very clear narrative she wants to put forth. Selena's narratives imo tend to be riddled with paradoxes and other illogical bits which makes her lyrics more believable to me. Because love isn't supposed to be pristine.

I think with Taylor, it's very tempting to put her at sx-second because she's so dramatic lol but Idk all 2s seem dramatic to me, even 2-fixed. I remember when I was like 4, my 2-fixed sister really wanted to go ice skating. My mom was iffy and immediately my sister replied, "FINE! I won't go at all!" and she huffed off. My four-year-old mind was positively BLOWN. I was like, "wtf are you doing???? Didn't you wanna go? How could you just give up like that?" I've always been slow to spot those emotional power plays and the escalation of drama made little sense to me.

Blegh anyhow I get why a lot of Taylor's recent music might point to sx in her stacking, but her music literally since the dawn of time until like 2013 lacked any semblance of sx, you know? Or at least I didn't spot any. All sorts of "I'm the good one -- pick me!" that sp 2s love to play. At my work, we have this fixed playlist that drives me fucking batty and for some reason, while there's only one song per artist, there's 10+ Taylor songs. What sticks out to me when I hear these ten songs is how nondescript her relationships are with these men. First of all, all the men are defined by their appearance -- which is exactly the same from song to song (tall, dark, beautiful eyes). And then you get her attempts to describe the relationship and they're really just random flashbacks with no real themes. Basically, for someone who writes exclusively about her own relationships, I don't actually have any grasp on what her relationships are like. Whereas I have a vivid picture of Selena's which brings me back to her being believable (totally agree her melodies are snoozefests though but I dislike Top 40 post-2008).

I realize a lot of this is just my musings lol. Bear with me.



> Ariana Grande I also see typed as 2? Don't really follow her either but I can see sx


I love Ariana actually and yes she makes sx music by virtue of her R&B influences lol. Never thought of 2 (3 has crossed my mind) but it would make sense. Positive outlook makes more sense than competency in any case. Bitch is brimming with that shit. Tentatively accepting she's a 2 (I'd want a full analysis), she would be a good go-to example for sp-last 2.





> Oh, this is really interesting!
> I've taken it for granted that Lana is sp/sx because she's so...scoopy...but lately I've been wondering about social instinct, maybe not first but...she certainly likes to evoke a certain social era...but maybe just as a background. If 'sp' is really 'atmosphere' then sp still makes sense


When I first heard Lana, I really thought she was a social type. Her obsession with money and old Hollywood glamour all seemed to stem from social status to me. Queen of Saigon. A man with money using his money to elevate her. Lana is very selective about details. She likes to point out details that paint a cinematic picture of a very specific era and a very specific character. In that sense, she has a very obvious other-focus for me... but I think Lana the person is definitely so last lol. I don't think any of her post-Born to Die albums could be penned by anyone with the slightest social focus. I think Lana's character is one of endless decadence that can be seen through any of those three lenses and still make sense.

I read once that sp is less likely to take others' comfort into consideration. The examples were Thom Yorke and Trent Reznor whose music and music videos could really induce an epileptic seizure at times. They don't make their music as palatable, especially sp/sx because they're sp-first and so-last. Sp is rather closed off to the world at large, lost in its own ruminations.

I've never seen sp = atmosphere. I suppose I can see where the idea comes from, but I don't think I agree. We'd have to start by defining atmosphere. I got in trouble in a class once when I asserted that Iron Maiden is an "atmospheric" band so I know my sense of atmosphere must be different lol. I always saw atmospheric music as the type that rips you off your sofa by the belt loop and hurls you into a preconstructed realm, one you can touch and smell and might even feel somewhat familiar.

Iron Maiden are excellent architects so to speak. Listen to Paschendale and you're instantly transported to a lowly trench in WWI anticipating the whistle blow that signals the end to your own life. Listen to Still Life and you feel the pull and hear the voices that seduce you and beckon you to drown yourself. Listen to Infinite Dreams and close your eyes and see heaven's and hell's soldiers possess you. Listen to Ghost of the Navigator and feel the waves whip your ship and the storm above assault you and whisper, "Give up." To me, that's atmosphere. Almost... civil engineering but with music.

If I utilize my own definition of atmosphere, I don't think I can agree it's sp in good faith because of one undebatably sp-last band: U2. They don't have the strong atmosphere Lana Del Rey has, but they certainly have an atmospheric presence, one of divinity and war. Very sx/so music. I find them fun to compare to, say, Hozier (sx/sp to the max). Both have a very particular atmosphere they build, but U2 creates the sense that their love and devotion is taking them higher. It's out of this world. It's almost GODLY love. And then you get Hozier's whose love pulls him into the ground. It's sort of... paganistic. His love is raw and dirty and he wants to lay in the ground and let the maggots siphon it off him.

To me, sx/so music is like revolution + being taken to a higher plane. Sx/sp music is disinterested in the world and wants to run away and die with a lover.

I suppose a way to put it is the instincts all have their own methods of crafting "atmosphere" to me. I suppose traditionally one could argue it's sp-first by virtue of it being cut off and very individualistic and the band everyone thinks of when they think of atmosphere (Pink Floyd) is certainly sp as fuck but Idk if I would agree to such a narrow definition of atmosphere.



> Tbh I don't know enough about musical styles and who someone might be trying/not trying to evoke, but this will be a interesting thing to chew over
> 
> btw star tripper, saw you mention Ritchie Blackmore/Blackmore's Night, I know absolutely nothing about Deep Purple or any of that, but I am curious if you have any Enneagram opinion about Blackmore's Night's music?
> 
> I thought 279 and . . . I used to think sx-first lol but now I'd guess so/sp?
> 
> unless sp is atmosphere, then I guess sp-first...*is atmosphere sp?*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Anyways, thanks for the response, I don't have much to add or say but it was interesting to read


I'm probably the only Deep Purple fan on the planet who adores Blackmore's Night. Purple fans really resent Ritchie for switching styles drastically and accuse Candice of being some kind of "g*psy woman." I would argue though that Ritchie was moving toward this as far back as his Rainbow days. That man loves the imagery you traditionally see in power metal. Or like... Castlevania. Van Helsing. Blackmore loves that shit. BN wasn't really a stretch for him. He's a good example of what I was arguing about Lana post-Born to Die -- he gives absolutely no fucks about how palatable his music is. This guy is like the greatest example of sp/sx since Han Solo. He's cold, meticulous, hard to work with (he pushed Ian Gillan down a flight of stairs once), gives not one single fuck, and is on record as saying he doesn't think music should be fun. Suffice it to say he's hilarious and my favorite guitarist of all-time.

But on a more relevant note, Blackmore's Night's music follows Rainbow's dedication to atmosphere but to a more narrow and extreme end. They romanticize the 1500s, drawing your cloak closer to your face as you maneuver the blizzard by lantern-light to the castle on the hill.

I can see an argument for so/sp in the sense that imo BN has a very warm and inviting tone to it like "join me in my magical world." And there can be a very wandering focus to it. But then I think of the song Castles and Dreams.



> Solitaire with a song in her heart
> But what a sad song to sing
> Turned her back on all that she knew
> In the hopes of a golden ring
> 
> And the rains came down
> And the stars fell from the sky
> Oh how dark the night
> It always seems those castles and dreams
> Fade with the morning light


And my insides scream SX/SO!!! because that is just an incredibly sx/so songwriting style -- stitching stories together to create a tapestry of motif. Like Bruce Springsteen's The River (everyone on the planet agrees he's 6w5 sx/so, yes?). And BN do this rather frequently, this tapestry of motif.

Even though Blackmore himself is absurdly sp/sx, I'd be hard-pressed to rule out the idea that BN as an entity is sp-last. The music is just so... playful and romantic. But it does lack an intensity and focus which might place it in the sx-last camp. I'd have to really meditate on this one. Tons of mitigating factors at play compared to Taylor Swift.

Apologies for the ambiguities that riddle this post. I have all sorts of oddly specific musical constructs that make sense in my own internal map that might make less sense to the outside.

Edit: TOTALLY agree on 279 though. Ridiculously so. Raise your hats and your glasses too!


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## star tripper

Just figured out a way to articulate Selena vs Taylor.

Has anyone had Del Taco's coffee in the last few years? A couple years ago, it was pretty fine coffee for $1. That's because it came straight from the pot. Of course, there were hits and misses. Oftentimes they didn't put enough cream in it and it just tasted wretched so I would have to drive back and ask for piles of cream. Nonetheless though, it did always taste like coffee from the pot so I faithfully came back day after day.

Then a couple years ago, Del Taco stopped using coffee from the pot. Instead, they used this pre-made coffee with its own cream ratio included. As a result, the coffee was consistent... consistently alright. Pretty meh. It does nothing to wake me up. I literally just drink it when I have no place else to go for coffee.

Selena = cheap, inconsistent real coffee
Taylor = cheap, consistent pre-made coffee

But remember they're both $1 coffee from a fast food place so don't expect a whole lot either way.


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## Cracked Actor

Lana del Rey is a perfect example of a type 4 dandy. Type 4 people are often separated into two categories: the bohemians and the dandies. @mimesis is the one who showed me the differences between the two. I find that the bohemian 4s frequently misunderstand the dandy 4s, they consider us to be "fake" and "shallow" because we're more interested in cultivating beauty in oneself and living out a glamorous romanticized fantasy life rather than accepting one's ugliness and poverty.



> The Dandy
> 
> Like bohemians, Dandies fervently rejected bourgeois values. They had a similar, carefree, indolent lifestyle and like Bohemians, seemed to belong nowhere in society. However, *unlike bohemians, Dandies chose to emulate the aristocracy rather than live in poverty*. Despite these differences, the Bohemia and Dandyism often merged.
> 
> A famous dandy, Charles Baudelaire, commented that *the dandies had "no profession other than elegance...no other status but that of cultivating the idea of beauty in their own persons....The dandy must aspire to be sublime without interruption; he must live and sleep before a mirror*."



























































> *Aristocratic imitation: Dandies lacked noble blood, connections, and any innate characteristics of aristocracy. They were like actors living out fantasies that could never come true, adopting outward characteristics that aided in this public and personal deception*.
> 
> Fashion: *Appearance and the latest fashion was everything to a Dandy. They delighted in elegance and accessories such as white gloves, etc. A significant part of their day was spent grooming; Baudelaire claimed that he always spent at least two hours at his toilette*. They also believed strongly in cleanliness; most probably bathed regularly.
> 
> Mannerism: Dandyism was largely defined by a self-cultivated personality. As Victor Hugo observed, Dandies thought of themselves as " . . . gentlemen in a barroom, who talk about 'my fields, my woods, my peasants,' hiss the actresses at the theatre to prove that they are persons of taste, quarrel with the officers of the garrison, to show that they are gallant, . . ." *These haughty attitudes reinforced their outward aristocratic appearance. They developed the "bearing, pretension, and disdain" common to nobility*. Arsène Houssaye described one dandy-like character he met as being a "born unbeliever who mocked everything" and "completed all his phrases with clever little conceits."
> 
> Merging of Bohemia and Dandyism: These two seemingly different worlds very often mingled. Dandies befriended Bohemians and frequented the same cafes. While many dandies were forced to live a bohemian lifestyle, bohemians sometimes adopted dandy ways. Henri Murger sometimes dressed as a dandy for fun; he once convinced a friend to follow suit and afterward go to their usual, seedy cafe.
> 
> Philibert Audebrand observed two companions, a bohemian and a dandy, and said of them: "If they shared the same kind of life, that is the same chance existence, the same love of inactivity, the same appetite for celebrity," they were different in that "*one was handsome and given to elegance, the other prided himself on being ugly and affected a careless exterior*."
> 
> Although bohemians and dandies affected different attitudes and adopted slightly different lifestyles, there was still a fine line between a dandy and a bohemian. They were closely related and they both lived their lives in rejection of a bourgeois life.


Examples of type 4 dandies are Oscar Wilde, Michael Jackson, Morrissey, David Bowie, Prince, Lana del Rey, Charles Baudelaire, Lord Byron, etc. The dandies consider their own bodies as a canvas for their art which is why they spend so much time in front of a mirror grooming their next masterpiece. Some dandies even resort to cosmetic surgery to achieve their ideal beauty which was the case for Michael Jackson and Lana del Rey.

Both Oscar Wilde (4w3) and Charles Baudelaire (4w5) are my dandy "heroes". Oscar Wilde once famously said that "one should either be a work of art or wear a work of art" which is the dandy's life motto. That is what the dandy attempts to achieve with their appearance every time they step out of their homes because life itself is the greatest platform of all when it comes to art. The dandy must look like a living, breathing painting. They take aesthetics to a surreal level.



> Charles Baudelaire defined the dandy, in the later "metaphysical" phase of dandyism, *as one who elevates æsthetics to a living religion*, that the dandy's mere existence reproaches the responsible citizen of the middle class: "Dandyism in certain respects comes close to spirituality and to stoicism" and "These beings have no other status, but that of cultivating the idea of beauty in their own persons, of satisfying their passions, of feeling and thinking .... *Dandyism is a form of Romanticism. Contrary to what many thoughtless people seem to believe, dandyism is not even an excessive delight in clothes and material elegance. For the perfect dandy, these things are no more than the symbol of the aristocratic superiority of mind*."


Three things that are important to the type 4 dandy are beauty, elegance, and glamour (which is essentially charm or romantic mystique). These are qualities we become attracted to in others and they're qualities we believe are lacking in ourselves which is why so much time is spent on grooming one's appearance. The dandy cannot accept the possibility that they may be ugly (in every sense of the word) or ordinary.



















Lana del Rey's music is about a romantic fictionalized world and, while that old Hollywood elegance in her songs is not real, the emotions that she expresses in the music are real. She has a fantasy world created from her own imagination which she uses to express those emotions. She has an obsession with the rich and cultural elite of the 1950's. She doesn't seem to have any interest in the current mores, but is deeply interested in the cultures of many decades ago. Much of her music is not based in reality. It doesn't get anymore 4 than that imo.


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## typethisperson

Lana Del Rey is a 4w3 sx. The thing is that most people don't know about intregration and disintregration. She has a strong link to 2.


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## d e c a d e n t

typethisperson said:


> Lana Del Rey is a 4w3 sx. The thing is that most people don't know about intregration and disintregration. She has a strong link to 2.


who doesn't know about that


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## Roshan

typethisperson said:


> Lana Del Rey is a 4w3 sx. The thing is that most people don't know about intregration and disintregration. She has a strong link to 2.


I have Lana del Rey typed as an sp/sx 2w3 with 6w7 and 9 progressed (integrated) to sx/soc 4w3. So I not only know about "core dynamics"/"movement of points" (formerly conceptualized strictly as integration and disintegration but that has been pretty obsolete for years) but of movement of instinctual stacking. This is a very long thread. A lot of work went into it, not just mine. Did you even read any of it?


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## Roshan

In any case I'll take this (and I now see there are other she's-this-because-I-said-so comments) as an opportunity to thank the people who participated on the thread, especially Animal, and to apologize for my not returning. I thought about doing so a number of times but couldn't for particular reasons. Making this and the companion thread, "Are They Fours?" was very important in consolidating my Enneagram knowledge. 

Since I worked on these two threads I became familiar with tapes of a Claudio Naranjo talk at a workshop from a few years ago in which he discusses the sp 2 as "the Fourish Two" and I am now more sure than ever that Lana del Rey is an sp 2. Unfortunately the person who owns the tapes doesn't want to share them with the public and I need to take that up with him because it's very important information.

But it isn't necessary information to understand that this woman isn't a Four, and especially an sx Four. Sx Fours don't go around kissing their fans, perfect strangers, on the lips to comfort them because they look sad; they don't bat their eyelashes and act cutesy, boast about how they still baby-sit while famous, rail at the NY music scene for being uncreative in comparison to the world of social work, make a career out of being interestingly derivative, become seized by a "Mistress/Earth Mother" archetype, don't wear capris almost as a uniform when not performing The Mistress archetype (sx 2), break into the big time by singing about extolling the virtues of sitting home watching "him" play video games "It's you, it's you, IT'S ALL FOR YOU", they don't affect baby talk, and, and there is much much more. It isn't that a 4 (particularly an sx 4) COULDN'T do one or two of those things, but not ALL of those things. Though frankly the kissing strangers is pretty much out of the question. Fours, no matter how exhibitionistic, are still withdrawns. But the biggest thing is the THEMES. Over and over and over, her themes are _archetypically_ 2. Fours don't BECOME Twos when they move to Two. They 're still FOURS at Two. To say someone is a Four because she's "romantic", "creative", or whatever, all these cliches, they're just cliches. Lana del Rey isn't a _withdrawn_. She's by type arguably the most social configuration (2-6-9) but by stacking she's _social last. _She has neither the obsessive, bursting at the seams competitiveness nor the painful shame of the sx or the soc 4 respectively. She is in fact rather shameless. She's a socially awkward 2.


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## psyche

Ugh, I have the worst social anxiety, I am probably going to regret posting this but @Roshan I always wanted to tell you, you are an amazing typer and the knowledge I do have of the enneagram would not be what it is had I not learned what I did just from reading your posts in the past, in this thread and the Are They Fours? thread.


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## Roshan

psyche said:


> the knowledge I do have of the enneagram would not be what it is had I not learned what I did just from reading your posts in the past,.


I can say the same about others. It's all in transmission and process and I thank you very much.


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## Roshan

I want to add that in those tapes Naranjo calls sp 2 "The Fourish 2" and "Ineffective Help". It's the little girl who does little things for daddy and messes them up so daddy will help HER. Sounds a lot like Lana and the motorcycle gang in Ride--a singularly unfourish scenario, I might add. 

Since I'm here I'll do what I've thought about doing several times and go back to these threads and make some comments about where I think I was wrong or came to a decision about something I didn't know back then. I'll do it within the week. Thanks again.


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## typethisperson

*Rolls eyes* You guys are typing her music not her as a person. It is plausible for a 4 to make 2-ish music especially since 4s and 2s have a link to each other.


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## typethisperson

Roshan said:


> I have Lana del Rey typed as an sp/sx 2w3 with 6w7 and 9 progressed (integrated) to sx/soc 4w3. So I not only know about "core dynamics"/"movement of points" (formerly conceptualized strictly as integration and disintegration but that has been pretty obsolete for years) but of movement of instinctual stacking.


What on earth are you talking about? 4s are only linked to 1 and 2. Tritype and fixes are garbage. 



> This is a very long thread. A lot of work went into it, not just mine. Did you even read any of it?


I read like the first 5 pages then I gave up cause it was never-ending.


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## d e c a d e n t

typethisperson said:


> *Rolls eyes* You guys are typing her music not her as a person. It is plausible for a 4 to make 2-ish music especially since 4s and 2s have a link to each other.


I don't really see that being the case. Why don't you actually try to make a real argument for why she's a 4 instead of just rolling your eyes at people (which seems to mainly be @Roshan atm) with different opinions?


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## Roshan

typethisperson said:


> What on earth are you talking about? 4s are only linked to 1 and 2. Tritype and fixes are garbage.
> 
> 
> I read like the 5 first pages then I gave up cause it was never-ending.


And from reading the first five pages you came to the conclusion that the reason people didn't know she was a Four was because they don't know about integration and disintegration and that you therefore are blessed with superior knowledge and in a position to decide what is and isn't garbage. 

That is fascinating in a very boring way.


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## Roshan

typethisperson said:


> *Rolls eyes* You guys are typing her music not her as a person. It is plausible for a 4 to make 2-ish music especially since 4s and 2s have a link to each other.


And eye rolls no less. From the person who made a completely baseless statement about some of the most basic Enneagram knowledge--the most basic knowledge being integration and disintegration, the baseless statement being most people don't know it.

But it's just as well because I was planning on coming back here to clarify what I said about integration and disintegration for the benefit of others reading the thread and so here I am, relatively punctual, thanks to you. 

What I had said was that what you called integration and disintegration was obsolete--that it has for years now been more properly conceptualized as "core dynamics" or "movement of the points". And this isn't just an Internet forum thing--Riso and Hudson in their last book repudiated the concept of integration and disintegration toward specific points. 

And that's what I need to clarify. There is still integration and disintegration but they aren't unidirectional. Let me give an example.

Let us suppose, for argument's sake, that you, dear TypeThisPerson, with your extraordinary ability to block out all aspects of reality you don't want to see, and to overgeneralize and see things in very broad strokes, are a low average to low functioning 9. Again, just for argument's sake. Let's say you are one of the many many 9s who read somewhere that Fours are sensitive and creative and you gave yourself that identity because heaven knows, you need one (as the generically low 9ish and singularly un-Fourish choice of your screen name could easily suggest) and because you fancy yourself sensitive and creative. So you decided certain artists are Fours because you think they're sensitive and creative--again, hypothetically, of course. And now you have a huge investment in those artists remaining Fours because if you're wrong about them you might be wrong about yourself too, and then how will you have an identity as a sensitive and creative person. Let us suppose hypothetically that you are one of these legions of pseudo-Fours on these boards who are really Nines (and perhaps the people who thank you when you generalize solipsistically about Fours are as well...).

Now, in this hypothetical case that I'm of course just supposing, you came here with a very strong movement to Three, arrogantly self-promoting knowledge you don't even begin to broach, comparing yourself to others and finding yourself *the best*, and so on. Yes, this would be a movement to Three, supposing hypothetically you're a low average to low functioning 9--but it's not an integration to Three. It's sometimes called movement to point of comfort--though you may not be so comfortable arrogantly self-promoting in real life. Be that as it may. It's a movement, but it's neither an integration nor particularly a disintegration, although it does warp your interpersonal dynamics. Basically the movement to Three is just something that makes you feel good. 

So any point is frequently moving in its "core dynamics" but the movement is very often neither of integration or disintegration. It can be but it often isn't, and when it is it could go either way. So a Nine could integrate or disintegrate to either 3 or 6, though ultimately a long term path of integration would usually involve a fairly long journey through the traditional integration point in an integrating way and then another through the traditional DISintegration point in an integrating way (which Riso and Hudson call "The Missing Piece".

Now you are batting way out of your league my dear eye roller, self-absorbedly encased in a particular kind of low Ninish cocoon that is a million miles away from the depth perceptions of even the unhealthiest Four, and since you're not paying me for my time, I must tell you that I'm not going to answer you if you post again unless you actually say something instead of spouting vague robotic inanities.


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## typethisperson

Seriously? I hope that I wouldn't be arguing for a celebrity's type on a Myers Briggs website like you when I reach your age. How pathetic and the fact that you're so easily triggered when someone disagrees with you is even more pathetic. I can't stand when people like you trap people into these types of threads when it is just to feed their own ego. Don't bother mentioning me again because I put you on ignore after your last couple of posts directed towards me.


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## Roshan

*Sigh*. I am going to have to address this, I see, but perhaps not for the reasons people following along might think. And also for those people, not for "this person", since I am going to assume *this person* has in fact vaporized me and won't renege on her decision. It will take a bit of time for me to unpack what I have to say so it will have to wait a bit. But this little episode here actually does matter. Why it does is a lot of what needs to be addressed. Anyway, for now just a couple of thoughts:

First of all, someone may be wondering if I have the right to proffer anything in the realm of a typing, even if only in the way of ruling out a type (E4), based on such a short interaction. The answer is no, not under normal circumstances, and not because the lack of E4 leading here isn't glaringly obvious (it is), but because it's very impolite. But this wasn't a normal circumstance, since "this person" came here to type anyone who thought this thread had anything to offer as a complete idiot.

Second, if "this person" hadn't vaporized me, I'd have addressed her directly, since she actually managed to say something substantive, which was the condition under which I said I'd engage with her. That substantive something was when she went for the jugular, fleet of foot and razor in hand, and managed to graze my skin enough to warrant a small bandaid by using the only weapon that could possibly get me, which was the age factor. It was skillful, at least in comparison to the soporific stupor from whence it emerged, thus demonstrating that she is capable of having something resembling a conversation where information is exchanged; she isn't totally self-cocooned. (And again I am going to insist on the difference between the self-absorption of E4 and the self-cocooning of E9--and now I must add, of its companion point E6 in its paranoid manifestation, wherein in order to hyperfocus on the paranoid story, one must wall off all other input, which is a movement to 9.) 

Third, some may be wondering, did I come down too hard on "this person", and I asked myself that question, and the answer is yes and no, but again not for the reasons one might be thinking. And I'll elaborate further but in a few days, because as I said earlier, my intention was to reread this and the companion thread and correct where I think I was wrong and complete, when possible, where I was undecided, and I'd like to get moving on that.

I'll kick that process off with Marilyn Manson, who at the time I typed as an soc/sp 4w5. That was kind of consensus at the old eidb board and I kind of was accepting it, I guess, but later in my travels I came across a video in which he said he divorced his wife because he felt fenced in by the commitment. This seemed to me most unlikely with an soc/sp stacking, whatever the fixes are, unless perhaps if Seven were leading and even then...and so I moved him to soc/sx, which seems to make sense as _he's such a sad sack. _ If I'm right he would exemplify what we on the eidb used to call the "dark social" (soc/sx with very high sx).

There. That was one. Now how many left to go...?


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## Roshan

I typed Siouxie Sioux as s "sx/soc 4w3-7w8-8w7 or something like that". I now see her as 4w5-6wX extreme cph-1w2 soc/sx very high sx (very dark social).


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## Roshan

I typed Yoko Ono as an example of sp/sx, probably on the 9/1 line. I did a bit of work on her with someone else. She is tricky. We "settled" on sp/sx 1w9-4w3-7w6. If this is correct it's an example of a tritype being in conflict with a stacking, sp/sx being intensely reality-based as in not arguing about "shoulds", also somewhat "amoral", as in transcending ordinary morality and constraints in order to accomplish its goals, while 1-4-7 is the Idealist. Everything should be different, better than it is. What stacking and tritype have in common is transcendence of the ordinary; but one accepts it and manipulates it, the other re-envisions it. Both reshape it in their way.


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## Roshan

@tresemme argued for 7 for Gaga and I thought 6w7 but I'm very comfortable with her now as a 7. I think she's 7w6 with 3w4 and 8w7, making her a 3-4-7 "Mover and Shaker", though 2, as someone said, is also possible for the heart fix. I also think she's sx last and my first choice is soc/sp. Anyone who insists she's 4-fixed or high sx may ask why when the costumes finally came off, it turned out her life's dream was to sing "The Sound of Music". There is nothing less Fourish, or more sx last, than "The Sound of Music". Nothing.


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## Roshan

@*tresemme*, a 7, claimed 7 for Gaga and I thought 6w7 but I'm very comfortable with her now as a 7. I think she's 7w6 with 3w4 and 8w7, making her a 3-7-8 "Mover and Shaker", though 2, as was suggested, is also possible for the heart fix. I also think she's sx last and my first choice is soc/sp, one of the "Titans". Anyone who insists she's 4-fixed or high sx may ask why when the costumes finally came off, it turned out her life's dream was to perform"The Sound of Music" publicly. There is nothing less Fourish, or more sx last, than "The Sound of Music". Nothing.


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## Roshan

I had Nina Hagen as sx/soc 6w7-8w9-4w3 but for various reasons she may be another one of the "dark socials". If anyone's interested I'll go into it further. Ditto with any of the above.


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## Roshan

DomNapoleon said:


> Lady Gaga is an obvious 7w6.


Going down the thread. Yes, I moved her over there later, as I just said.


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## Roshan

Hermetica said:


> Lana del Rey is a perfect example of a type 4 dandy. Type 4 people are often separated into two categories: the bohemians and the dandies. @*mimesis* is the one who showed me the differences between the two. I find that the bohemian 4s frequently misunderstand the dandy 4s, they consider us to be "fake" and "shallow" because we're more interested in cultivating beauty in oneself and living out a glamorous romanticized fantasy life rather than accepting one's ugliness and poverty.
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> Examples of type 4 dandies are Oscar Wilde, Michael Jackson, Morrissey, David Bowie, Prince, Lana del Rey, Charles Baudelaire, Lord Byron, etc. The dandies consider their own bodies as a canvas for their art which is why they spend so much time in front of a mirror grooming their next masterpiece. Some dandies even resort to cosmetic surgery to achieve their ideal beauty which was the case for Michael Jackson and Lana del Rey.
> 
> Both Oscar Wilde (4w3) and Charles Baudelaire (4w5) are my dandy "heroes". Oscar Wilde once famously said that "one should either be a work of art or wear a work of art" which is the dandy's life motto. That is what the dandy attempts to achieve with their appearance every time they step out of their homes because life itself is the greatest platform of all when it comes to art. The dandy must look like a living, breathing painting. They take aesthetics to a surreal level.
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> Lana del Rey's music is about a romantic fictionalized world and, while that old Hollywood elegance in her songs is not real, the emotions that she expresses in the music are real. She has a fantasy world created from her own imagination which she uses to express those emotions. She has an obsession with the rich and cultural elite of the 1950's. She doesn't seem to have any interest in the current mores, but is deeply interested in the cultures of many decades ago. Much of her music is not based in reality. It doesn't get anymore 4 than that imo.


And she is delighted with being characterized as a modern-day Nancy Sinatra, that paradigmatic Four. 

David Bowie was an sx/soc 3w4-7w8-9w1 (or possibly 1w9). His putative 4ness has been over-discussed everywhere to the point of pointlessness tweaking every conceivable thing about him to make it so. There was an outstanding discussion on this on the eidb before it closed but unfortunately it's no longer linkable. The overwhelming consensus after weeks was 3w4. To not see him as a Three is to assume all kinds of things that Fours can do that Threes can't because Fours are creative and Threes are just Threes. He was a very Fourish 3 who kicked off his career--which he had to start in committee btw because he had no idea what he wanted to say or how he wanted to say it, just that he had to succeed at all costs--by examining his own superficiality and narcissism, trenchantly. In so doing he examined the whole culture's, and they followed him, like the Pied Piper. To the very last drop, all through the high-gloss, intentionally over-produced Blackstar, he showed himself to be a very Fourish 3.

One thing I'll give you about Bowie, though. He certainly was a dandy. But that doesn't make him a 4. Now Miss Lizzy--have you seen how she dresses when she's not making her videos or performing big concert halls? She is no dandy.

If you want to discuss her further, with you arguing for Four, I'm happy to do so if you actually read everything I wrote carefully and make sure you understand it, including the recent stuff about Naranjo's Fourish Two. And I will do the same with your posts on her. Contrary to what "this person" claimed, I have absolutely no problem with continuing to discuss the possibility of Lana del Rey as a Four. With someone who knows what they're talking about, is willing to put time and effort into it and consider everything I say objectively instead of spouting cliches which tend to wind up being She's a Four because I'm a Four and I relate to her.

Fours are dandies and she's a dandy doesn't clinch any argument, even if she were one in real life. That said, and to repeat myself, the archetypal sx Two is "The Mistress", who is the one who is ostentatiously decked out with baubles, and that's what she's playing in some of her videos. Some.Sometimes.

As I said, we can rehash it but only at a very high level of discourse and with some commitment. Bowie I'm not too hot on rehashing because the pros mostly agree on him so there's far less chance of myths about Four being perpetuated with him than with our baby-talking cowgirl Sinatra daddy's girl in baubles. Ready boots start baudelairing.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

I see her as a 4w3 Sp/Sx with a strong 9w1 in her tritype. Remember SP fours are the counter-type of the four. There is a dauntlessness to her, yet reserved energy. Your 2w3s tend to be more alive, and can easily venture to the side of anger when disintegrating to type 8. People need to remember being a four is not about being an artist or anything extraordinary... it's literally just related to a set of unconscious motivations with one of the biggest being to find and create meaning... as well as hone in on one's identity. 

Lady Gaga seems to have 4w3 and 7w6 in her tritype. If you say otherwise you clearly have a glamorized or too-strict of an image of what being a four means. Everyday people are also fours.


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I see her as a 4w3 Sp/Sx with a strong 9w1 in her tritype. Remember SP fours are the counter-type of the four. There is a dauntlessness to her, yet reserved energy. Your 2w3s tend to be more alive, and can easily venture to the side of anger when disintegrating to type 8. People need to remember being a four is not about being an artist or anything extraordinary... it's literally just related to a set of unconscious motivations with one of the biggest being to find and create meaning... as well as hone in on one's identity.
> 
> Lady Gaga also seems to be a 4w3 with a strong 7w8 in her tritype. If you say otherwise you clearly have a glamorized or too-strict of an image of what being a four means. Everyday people are also fours.


Well, we agree at least on del Ray's stacking. That's something. The online typing community seems to be getting over "someone is sexy so they're sx first". This is progress. Now may I ask you if you've read everything I wrote about her here, and read it recently? 

Your comment that if I don't think Gaga's a 4 I have a too-strict or too glamorized imagine of what Four means indicates you haven't read much of anything I wrote, or if you did you filtered out anything that didn't suit you. 

Also Gaga's typing is widely disputed, among pros and non-professional topnotch typers alike. To use her of all people as an example of someone not understanding E4 if they can't see she is one is just plain silly. No offense but it is.


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## Roshan

PS @*Darkness*inthesnow, may I ask you where you see envy and melancholy in Lady Gaga?

If you don't want that question to be rhetorical, make sure you come up with a substantive, well-documented and thought out answer, please.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Other artists addressed here:

Selena Gomez as she grows older seems to be a 3w4 or a 4w3 Sp/Sx. Very "smothering" energy. 

Taylor Swift gives off So/Sp. Her music is very So-oriented, with a lot of image talk, and focused on what others think.

Demi Lovato is a 6w7 Sx/So with both a 4wX and a 9w8 fix. She is your "seeker" who is constantly searching... 

Lorde is a 4w5 So/Sp, most evident in Melodrama's focus on feeling unwanted. 

Miley Cyrus has strong 7 in her, but also 4. Very similar to Lady Gaga.


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## Rose for a Heart

On Sylvia Plath - she’s not 4w5. In fact her 3 is so strong I have considered core 3 for her. Might come back and comment more on this later. Instincts seem somewhat confusing though not sx last. Initially I had typed her at sx/sp though I’m willing to see sp/sx.


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## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> On Sylvia Plath - she’s not 4w5. In fact her 3 is so strong I have considered core 3 for her. Might come back and comment more on this later. Instincts seem somewhat confusing though not sx last. Initially I had typed her at sx/sp though I’m willing to see sp/sx.


sp/sx 4w3.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Roshan said:


> Also Gaga's typing is widely disputed, among pros and non-professional topnotch typers alike. To use her of all people as an example of someone not understanding E4 if they can't see she is one is just plain silly. No offense but it is.


I did not accuse you of that specifically, and was talking in general about people's tendency to go "that is not what a real four would do" or "that is not what a four would say" and so forth.


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Lorde is a 4w5 So/Sp, most evident in Melodrama's focus on feeling unwanted.
> 
> Miley Cyrus has strong 7 in her, but also 4. Very similar to Lady Gaga.


Lorde is a 4, appears to be 4w5, don't know about the stacking, haven't thought about it, doesn't matter so much to me. 

I just wanted to clarify where I thinkI was wrong previously on this thread. Don't have it in me to do extensive micro-work on all the particulars of all these celebrities, just the ones that seem particularly significant for reasons of understanding the system and/or avoiding mistypings.

Miley Cyrus is similar to Gaga in ways and dearly I hope you don't think that anyone who can't see she's also a Four is likewise glamorizing the Four space.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Roshan said:


> PS @*Darkness*inthesnow, may I ask you where you see envy and melancholy in Lady Gaga?
> 
> If you don't want that question to be rhetorical, make sure you come up with a substantive, well-documented and thought out answer, please.


Well 4 with a 7 fix is very different from a 4 with a 6 fix for example. So I actually just see her energy as a blend of the two. Especially in interviews where she is very introspective and building meaning in a creative way.


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## Rose for a Heart

A couple of (perhaps trivial) things, after reading all of this:

I don't see SP 2 as "fourish 2." I have a mother who is SP 2, and I barely see that line to 4 in her. She is however, 2 to the core, including that line to 8 and that pride she always denies she has. 

And the presentation of "little girl" being tied to type 2 is not limited to that type either. I can be like this with certain guys, though not always. Another example would Melanie Martinez (SO 4 most likely) and her character Crybaby.


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I did not accuse you of that specifically, and was talking in general about people's tendency to go "that is not what a real four would do" or "that is not what a four would say" and so forth.


Yes, you did, dear. You said it very specifically, maybe a half hour before you said you didn't. This is what you said, specifically to me:
*
Lady Gaga seems to have 4w3 and 7w6 in her tritype. If you say otherwise you clearly have a glamorized or too-strict of an image of what being a four means. Everyday people are also fours.

*So try to fix whatever's broken to sustain a real conversation and then we can have one.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Rose for a Heart said:


> A couple of (perhaps trivial) things, after reading all of this:
> 
> I don't see SP 2 as "fourish 2." I have a mother who is SP 2, and I barely see that line to 4 in her. She is however, 2 to the core, including that line to 8 and that pride she always denies she has.
> 
> And the presentation of "little girl" being tied to type 2 is not limited to that type either. I can be like this with certain guys, though not always. Another example would Melanie Martinez (SO 4 most likely) and her character Crybaby.


I really don't get the "acting like a child" Sp type 2 image.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

/


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## Rose for a Heart

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I really don't get the "acting like a child" Sp type 2 image.


Well, I can't speak for all SP 2s, but it's pretty accurate for my mother.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Roshan said:


> Yes, you did, dear. You said it very specifically, maybe a half hour before you said you didn't. This is what you said, specifically to me:
> *
> Lady Gaga seems to have 4w3 and 7w6 in her tritype. If you say otherwise you clearly have a glamorized or too-strict of an image of what being a four means. Everyday people are also fours.
> 
> *So try to fix whatever's broken to sustain a real conversation and then we can have one.


I actually didn't even @ or quote you. So I don't know what made you assume that was directed to only you. Don't see why you're taking what I say as an insult or a personal accusation of misunderstanding. Simply put, I've realized many people on here have a very strict definition of what it means to be a type 4, and that you need all these boxes checked to fit the bill, which is simply not the case. That is all I meant. And I will repeat, I didn't even @ or quote you when I said that.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Rose for a Heart said:


> Well, I can't speak for all SP 2s, but it's pretty accurate for my mother.


My mother too is a Sp/Sx 2, but she does not act like a child. Maybe this desire to be treated with endearment? And the cultivation of an innocent image? But my mother is very different in front of me versus in front of other people, and with me she does not play those games.


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## Roshan

Well I wrote del on this because I wanted to rethink it but meanwhile it was quoted so I guess I can't so fine. Such is life.


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## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> You may not see SP 2 as Fourish but Claudio Naranjo does. And he came to it after he published his books and had the opportunity to synthesize his knowledge, and it's Naranjo, along with Riso and Hudson, who still form the foundation of the majority of the knowledge stock for the conversations on these boards. So it can't simply be discarded. It's Naranjo improving on Naranjo.
> 
> Naranjo identifying the Fourish Two doesn't mean that every sp 2 will be obviously Fourish just like every soc/sp Six isn't dutiful. There are antisocial soc/sp Sixes. But it can't just be discarded. This is Naranjo, not...you know...Tom Condon or Sandra Maitri.
> 
> 
> If you're going to throw out the last distilled essence of his ideas that we have available that he considered as improving on them you may as well throw out these boards.


All I know of Naranjo and his work with instincts is the CN descriptions of subtypes on this forum. SX 4 and the way they describe it, is the antithesis of me, and yet that is the type I am. Unfortunately, that is the impression I have of his work on subtypes - it's not accurate. I am sure SX 4 isn't the only one; there are plenty more. So I am bound to view "this is what Naranjo said" with skepticism. 

As for Lana, initially I had her typed at 4, but given how she behaves outside of her music, I can see pretty strong 2.


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I actually didn't even @ or quote you. So I don't know what made you assume that was directed to only you. Don't see why you're taking what I say as an insult or a personal accusation of misunderstanding. Simply put, I've realized many people on here have a very strict definition of what it means to be a type 4, and that you need all these boxes checked to fit the bill, which is simply not the case. That is all I meant. And I will repeat, I didn't even @ or quote you when I said that.


Okay fine, you didn't specifically mean me, you meant the whole world must know Gaga is a Four or they don't get Four. And even though you posted that statement right after I just posted TWICE that Lady Gaga was a 7, on my own thread, you would like me not to take it personally and if I do you would like to weasel out of it. Have it your way. I couldn't care less. I am sorry but this present exchange with you simply isn't worth my time.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Roshan said:


> Okay fine, you didn't specifically mean me, you meant the whole world must know Gaga is a Four or they don't get Four. And even though you posted that statement right after I just posted TWICE that Lady Gaga was a 7, on my own thread, you would like me not to take it personally and if I do you would like to weasel out of it. Have it your way. I couldn't care less. I am sorry but this present exchange with you simply isn't worth my time.


I was just reacting to what I was seeing, I wasn't looking at any one user and saying "oh this statement is targeted against them". Nah I will take that back and say it is okay for people to not type her as a 4 or to see her as a different type, just not under the pretext that something is not "4-like" cause that really lacks substance. Also, for me, the blend of 4 with strong 7 is salient (as you say, she may very well be a 7). If anything, I was actually more referring to / thinking of people on here who have wanted to dis-type me as a four for not being "out there" enough, and I kind of feel like people act like fours are exotic when it's just an ordinary type with a diverse bunch. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and may you have a great day =)


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## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> All I know of Naranjo and his work with instincts is the CN descriptions of subtypes on this forum. SX 4 and the way they describe it, is the antithesis of me, and yet that is the type I am. Unfortunately, that is the impression I have of his work on subtypes - it's not accurate. I am sure SX 4 isn't the only one; there are plenty more. So I am bound to view "this is what Naranjo said" with skepticism.
> 
> As for Lana, initially I had her typed at 4, but given how she behaves outside of her music, I can see pretty strong 2.


Sx and Four are very similar. So being an sx Four is like being Four to the Fourth power. It's something like being a Sixteen. And that is why unless it's really healthy it has to employ an over-compensatory mechanism of demeaning those that don't bolster its sense of uniqueness. Which at average levels is more like competitiveness (an offshoot from E3), and at the lower levels becomes quite hateful. It's what happens with the Envy. For an sx Four to function with all that raw awareness of envy (inferiority/superiority), they have to over-compensate, as @Animal once said, like vampires. They need to eat YOUR self-image in some way (by degrading you, beating you at something, possessing you, abandoning you, whatever) in order to bolster theirs. 

It's not a common typing and it's not a pleasant typing, for themselves or for those close to them. It's probably the last thing anyone would want to be if they really understood it. So if you're deeply attached to being somehow a nice person you might reconsider your stacking.


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> I was just reacting to what I was seeing, I wasn't looking at any one user and saying "oh this statement is targeted against them". Nah I will take that back and say it is okay for people to not type her as a 4 or to see her as a different type, just not under the pretext that something is not "4-like" cause that really lacks substance. Also, for me, the blend of 4 with strong 7 is salient (as you say, she may very well be a 7). If anything, I was actually more referring to / thinking of people on here who have wanted to dis-type me as a four for not being "out there" enough, and I kind of feel like people act like fours are exotic when it's just an ordinary type with a diverse bunch. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and may you have a great day =)


Fine, apology accepted. I wasn't going to read it but I'm glad I did.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> Sx and Four are very similar. So being an sx Four is like being Four to the Fourth power. It's something like being a Sixteen. And that is why unless it's really healthy it has to employ an over-compensatory mechanism of demeaning those that don't bolster its sense of uniqueness. Which at average levels is more like competitiveness (an offshoot from E3), and at the lower levels becomes quite hateful. It's what happens with the Envy. For an sx Four to function with all that raw awareness of envy (inferiority/superiority), they have to over-compensate, as @*Animal* once said, like vampires. They need to eat YOUR self-image in some way (by degrading you, beating you at something, possessing you, abandoning you, whatever) in order to bolster theirs.
> 
> It's not a common typing and it's not a pleasant typing, for themselves or for those close to them. It's probably the last thing anyone would want to be if they really understood it. So if you're deeply attached to being somehow a nice person you might reconsider your stacking.


Some of my recent collages.. to get the feeling across.



















17 years old collage









18 years


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## Roshan

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> My mother too is a Sp/Sx 2, but she does not act like a child. Maybe this desire to be treated with endearment? And the cultivation of an innocent image? But my mother is very different in front of me versus in front of other people, and with me she does not play those games.


Naranjo's take on it wouldn't mean that they act childlike although he certainly says they can. It's that there's a "poor me" element to it. He calls it "ineffective help". As I parse it out the issue is that the essence of E2 is taking pride in helping others and the self-image is "I have no problems", but the sp first wants its own needs met. So right away you have a huge type/stacking conflict, a poor fit. Sp firsts want to take care of themselves but shouldn't they be helping others?

So sp Twos tend to be more aware that they have problems than other Twos and also they talk about them or otherwise display them, so there is a much higher level of obvious self-concern than say with social Twos who are just constantly catering to you; the sp's do feel compelled to take care of others but they want to be taken care of back with more than just gratitude and flattery. So they help but they don't help effectively and then they have your attention and hopefully you'll prop them up...he calls it Fourish because it tends to come off with this "poor me" element, this "woe is me", but I see the Sixish component too. Sp Twos have problems too dammit; they deserve support. Not just validation. Help.

After I heard the tapes I met a childish version in one person batting their eyelashes and the whole nine yards, and a very demanding bossy version in another. But they both coerced people into helping them by offering help. And they both were very aware they had problems. Interestingly it was the tougher one who talked about them more. Kind of a nag. The other one would more sort of stand there and pose as this vulnerable thing and look sensitive while getting you to talk about your problems, telegraphing her need, and thus lure you in to helping her with whatever she was doing, Both of these are sp/soc.


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## Animal

@*Roshan*
Last time we spoke on this thread, I had no idea I had met Lana del Rey in person.
She was way too skinny, possibly anorexic. Her name was Lizzy Grant, and she had blond hair. I knew the celeb she was dating, and she hung all over him like a puppy. You can see it even in the public pictures of them. She wrote a lot of obsessive stuff about him on her myspace. She had no image that really stood out aside from being classically gorgeous, and she wore typical girlygirl clothes. Her 'dark' image sprung up from nowhere later on and she was so unrecognizable I didn't even realize it was the same woman I met.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Roshan said:


> Naranjo's take on it wouldn't mean that they act childlike although he certainly says they can. It's that there's a "poor me" element to it. He calls it "ineffective help". As I parse it out the issue is that the essence of E2 is taking pride in helping others and the self-image is "I have no problems", but the sp first wants its own needs met. So right away you have a huge type/stacking conflict, a very poor fit. Sp firsts want to take care of themselves but shouldn't they be helping others?
> 
> This could manifest in many ways but the sp Twos tend to be more aware that they have problems and more willing to talk about them ime than other Twos so there is a much higher level of obvious self-concern than say with social Twos who are just constantly catering to you; the sp's do feel compelled take care of others but they want to be taken care of back with more than just gratitude and flattery (this resembles Sixish garnering support as well). So they help but they don't help effectively and then they have your attention and hopefully you'll prop them up...he calls it Fourish because it tends to come off with this "poor me" element, this "woe is me", but I see the Sixish component too. sp Twos want support. They have problems too dammit; they deserve support. Not just validation. They want help.


I can see that "poor me" element. She disintegrates to type 8 very easily, and she gets frustrated a lot. She's also not willing to give her all (like when I need help), which has to do with being Sp/Sx and almost like "dis-enlivening" the vibes. She's not jumping to help if she knows you well, and she's actually pretty private and does not care about fostering a social connection just for its sake. For more distant people, she does have the stereotypical "I'm nice and respectful" and she uses Sx to win people over. But she's also very selective over who she shows that side of her, and who she doesn't trust and is more reserved with. 

And BTW for the type 4 sexual, you summed it up really well. I'm an So/Sp four, I don't regularly feel a burning desire to be "better than others", even with my 3 wing. I do compare myself to others and see myself as less than, which reinforces a destructive cycle. But sexual 4s have a burning desire to prove themselves and are obsessed with proving superiority almost. If anything I just want to be non-inferior as an individual, but not necessarily prove anything to anyone. I was personally hurt by an Sx 4 family member who basically treated me wrong me in order to thrive off of the reaction... and now our relationship is nonexistent. There was no fight, but I was really hurt, and she knew that, but she would rather the reaction than no reaction. Our relationship couldn't be more awkward now, and to be honest, it did cause a lot of feelings of inferiority in me (like "Why is a family member abandoning me when I thought we were close? Why were they hiding so many things from me? Am I not good enough to be close to someone?"). And I personally didn't read the warning signs, like her obsession with "She's so pretty!" at every other girl she saw and thriving off her own success in many areas (other people in my family had seen them, but I shrugged them off).


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## Animal

For comparison - Brian Warner is quite clearly 4ish without his makeup.


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> @*Roshan*
> Last time we spoke on this thread, I had no idea I had met Lana del Rey in person.
> She was way too skinny, possibly anorexic. Her name was Lizzy Grant, and she had blond hair. I knew the celeb she was dating, and she hung all over him like a puppy. You can see it even in the public pictures of them. She wrote a lot of obsessive stuff about him on her myspace. She had no image that really stood out aside from being classically gorgeous, and she wore typical girlygirl clothes. Her 'dark' image sprung up from nowhere later on and she was so unrecognizable I didn't even realize it was the same woman I met.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, that's right. Lizzy Grant is not a dandy.
> 
> The image probably sprang up in collaboration with the people she worked on Video Games after luring them in by ineffectively helping them to garner support. :smug: Something she had in her that came out in collaboration.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> Yes, that's right. Lizzy Grant is not a dandy.
> 
> The image probably sprang up in collaboration with the people she worked on Video Games after luring them in by ineffectively helping them to garner support. :smug: Something she had in her that came out in collaboration.


Yup. I've read about it. If I can find some of the articles in her own words, or interviews, I will post them here.
Her image was negotiated and created by others who were trying to sell her. It was not her own nor was it expressive of herself. She wanted those hundred dollar bills & the fame she always sings about, y'know how it goes.....


4s reflect on their reflection, identifying with the reflections they see in the hall of shattered mirrors. I wrote this on another thread just before:



Animal said:


> The type four trap is "overidentifying" with their idea of their image. The paradox is that by looking inward to a hall of broken mirrors and identifying with the distorted reflections inside, reflecting on their reflection ad nauseum in order to define who they are, the four actually gets further and further from being genuine... which would mean , simply, BEING.
> 
> 
> Identifying with your deepest darkness and flaws is still identifying. Wearing those on your sleeve as part of your image is still saying "this is my identity- my suffering laid bare!" But.. if youre really genuine and laid bare, you don't need an identity or to show your inner story to anyone. The past doesn't exist right now --- the past is a fairytale version of stories that keep changing in our heads as we carry them with us. The four is identifying with this illusion of their own personal mythology.





> 4 is always, like Manson, over-developing a personal mythology (this is the over-focus on identity). Over-examining the meaning behind the meaning behind the meaning of each feeling, their suffering, the point of it all, who they are, what this says about them, what's at the root of it in their childhood. Often, they have alter-egos to represent conflicting emotional states, meaningful time periods or other segments of themselves, because their identity and all its meaning is too big to be contained in one person.



This is the exact opposite of someone whose managers negotiate their stage image. Lana del Rey is not an alter-ego complimenting another deep image; it's a money-maker that was negotiated by her managers. If anyone doubts this, I would advise them to look into Lizzy Grant themselves.

This is not to say fours don't have an image (some people make the mistake of calling them "authentic" in the sense that they aren't even treated as image types).... but it's very much a withdrawn, inner-facing personal process. They might negotiate their image for various gains, to some degree, but they won't just invent one from the skies in order to make money and get famous, and then sway in and out of it on a whim. That's not the 4 way.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Yup. I've read about it. If I can find some of the articles in her own words, or interviews, I will post them here.
> Her image was negotiated and created by others who were trying to sell her. It was not her own nor was it expressive of herself. She wanted those hundred dollar bills & the fame she always sings about, y'know how it goes.....
> 
> 
> 4s reflect on their reflection, identifying with the reflections they see in the hall of shattered mirrors. I wrote this on another thread just before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the exact opposite of someone whose managers negotiate their stage image. Lana del Rey is not an alter-ego complimenting another deep image; it's a money-maker that was negotiated by her managers. If anyone doubts this, I would advise them to look into Lizzy Grant themselves.
> 
> This is not to say fours don't have an image (some people make the mistake of calling them "authentic" in the sense that they aren't even treated as image types).... but it's very much a withdrawn, inner-facing personal process. They might negotiate their image for various gains, to some degree, but they won't just invent one from the skies in order to make money and get famous, and then sway in and out of it on a whim. That's not the 4 way.


Yes, and the same thing applies to David Robert Jones aka Bowie. 

Unless the person is an actor by vocation (not someone who did some acting after they made their mark in music like Bowie), when you see someone who has become successful crafting images of themselves that are based on images of other people, whether of characters or artsts who came before them (say Nancy Sinatra or Ziggy and Aladdin Sane), instead of making a statement about "This is who I am", in other words, people who are clearly play-acting different identities, I'd be very cautious before settling on Four. 

The first thing I'd try to find out is were these images created by a team. In Lizzy's case at that time I posted thos thread, that info wasn't available. But the info on Bowie was and I researched it copiously. Which is part of why I don't want to go back and find it, because now that the eidb thread no longer exists it would be a pain to reconstruct it. Anyway it's been hashed and rehashed over and over, and the consensus among experts is he's a Three.


----------



## Animal

@*Roshan*
I see Bowie as a very clear 3 as well. I've been in really long arguments with other members on this forum which got ugly, so in the interest of not beating a dead horse I preferred watching you get into it than doing it again myself, but my view is the same as yours and for the same reasons. His image is crafted after his heroes and he keeps shedding it over and over. While 4s can go through some metamorphasis, it tends to all tie together or be part of some deep personal mythos. With him, he "reinvents himself." It's more chameleonic.


----------



## Roshan

ps I myself was undecided and I went into it with an open mind. The reason I was undecided was I was unduly influenced at that time by dfgray of eidb (who runs enneasite.com). He was kind of a mentor. He was saying Bowie was sp/sx Four and others were saying sx/soc 3w4 and I went further in the research than they had done and I put it before them and we all talked.

Now dfgray is the same person who put out a certain posting about sp/sx 4w3s, in which he included Jimi Hendrix (an sx/sp 9w8 with 4w3 and 7w6), Jim Morrison (an enigma I'm still not settled on but not an sp/sx 4w3), and who else did he have...can't recall offhand. What I do recall is when I came here that thing was floating around as "proof" that Bowie was a Four.

However I had already had a discussion with dfgrey about Hendrix in which he agreed my typing was correct. That post of his would not die though, kept making the rounds. Blech.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> @*Roshan*
> I see Bowie as a very clear 3 as well. I've been in really long arguments with other members on this forum which got ugly, so in the interest of not beating a dead horse ic.


I have to wonder when people get so attached to someone's typing that things get ugly, why is this so? Isn't it liberating to know that artists can be wonderful and fabulous without having some number attached to them? This deification of the Four space, it's like a disease. 

I don't get p.o.'d because someone still thinks Lana is a Four. It's when they slough me off and don't take what I have to say seriously and want to argue with me without giving me a fair hearing after all the work you and I and the others on the two threads did. 

My suspicion in those cases if they type at Four is they have a preexisting image of Four that they identify with and feel threatened by relinquishing it because then they might have to change their self-typing. 

Or they have a preexisting image of the system they're invested in that they don't want to change. I'm always willing to change, but if it's something I've researched and thought out and presented very carefully, I'll only be convinced by the same level of discourse and dilligence.


----------



## Roshan

@*Animal*, and here's the thing: How come I understood Bjork was a 9? 

Why, because of David Gray! :tongue:

David is outstanding at ferreting out the atypical Nines because he is one, though I don't think he got her full typing right, but I have to stop now and so I am.


----------



## Roshan

Final words for now:

David Gray, can't live with him, can't live without him.

Enneagramwise, that is.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Final words for now:
> 
> David Gray, can't live with him, can't live without him.
> 
> Enneagramwise, that is.


:laughing:
He is something else.


----------



## Roshan

Well, you know...he rearranges the sky.

http://enneasite.com

bfn


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Animal said:


> His sex life was very weird. I see weird sex lives like this in some SoSp's I actually know. They can't face it in a wholesome way.


I find this so amusing. >_>


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Upon deeper reflection, I thought I might as well add these thoughts to the discussion:

In my opinion, the CN(/Naranjo) description leans too heavily towards type 3, which is strange to me, given how withdrawn I am (4w5). It has been brought up several times, and I think it's very pertinent, because I don't see SX 4 as the more 3ish 4, necessarily. I am not even sure if there is one description that could sum up a "subtype," because ultimately people are very different due to cognition, processing styles, etc. 

It may well be that _this _description of type 4 is "rare." I don't know. But is *SX 4* truly rare, once you consider that the description is so limited? Personally for me, nobody who has known me and the enneagram is going to type me at anything but SX 4. It just took me a while to see because I was being lead away from it due to my insistence on _romance _as part of SX. And because it was triggering to face all my issues all at once. 

But for me, it _is _a part of SX. I have not felt kinship with most people, including my parents. Everyone in my family is SP first and they have tried to assert iron-handed control over my energy, undermine it somehow, ask me to "control" it, indirectly implying I am weak because I can't. Or that I didn't try hard enough. But what they don't understand is that this hurts me more than it hurts them. THIS means everything to me. To them, it's optional. To them, it's no big deal, and to them I am throwing a fit over nothing. It hurts, and it still does. Even when I try to make them understand my mother still makes that very basic mistake of asking me to "change" (or curb completely) what or who I am attracted to - which is ridiculous and I never for the life of me understood how she imagines people can do that. My father being SP 1, just finds me out of control (which, to be honest, I can be) and tries to assert control over my emotions, including violently squelching my insecurities around this instinct. 

And insecurities I have had many. All of them around SX. I didn't even realize I was SEEKING connection, until my friend pointed it out. And connection in the sense of this deep, total nudity between two people. I didn't realize it because I have never had even the beginning of one - thanks to my disorder. I have felt like a fetus left to rot without connection to anything sustaining it. It was like I have been screaming at walls my whole life. I didn't feel that anybody got me, or connected with me at all. Though much of it was in my head, and some of it reality. In reality, some people will never get me. 

But NONE of that was about undermining someone else's image. Why should I bother with that? Why should I care? But more importantly, what's SX about that? I don't understand. I follow things I am attracted to. And yes, I do feel that if I cannot be everything he has ever desired, I am less than, and that's heartbreaking. I have done both - lamented about how I am never good enough, and thought the other girl to be less than me. Though the superiority has manifested _after_ my introduction to the enneagram so I don't even know if it's confirmation bias. 

And yes, I have, at this point, thanks to my life experiences, trauma towards my SX instinct. But I am beginning to heal it. I have felt from the very beginning, that this energy inside was "ugly." That it was too much for anyone to take, and scary. This SX energy. So I repressed something beautiful and powerful and raw. I *will *reclaim it. 

In any case, SO 4, despite being pretty accurate, fails to nail my actual instincts. And SX 4 similarly falls short.


----------



## twistedblade056

I'm no expert on her personality but I thought she's a 9 from reading her wiki, some of her quotes, seeing few interviews, etc....


----------



## misfortuneteller

Lana never seemed genuinely different to me. She's probably a sx 2 or a sx 9 even since they tend to be 4-ish? I believe I have a 2w3 sister that acts 4-ish now as well and I actually thought she was a 4w3 when I got into enneagram.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Roshan said:


> This person seems to me a very good example of a high sx sp-last Four and btw I think he has 7w8 and 8w7 . I actually think he's soc/sx (very high sx, very dark social), but he is just a continuous display of the sx Four competitive need to vampirize others in order to be able to get out of bed in the morning. Also the social Four shame reeks through every pore. He is totally combative but he is still a withdrawn and an assertive wing and the two most assertive fixes imaginable cannot hide this fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's withdrawn and it's very obvious in his body language. Four is an extremely withdrawn type. Only surpassed by 5. *Milo exudes envy, melancholy, and shame with every breath, very clearly perceives himself as defective* (which he finally even admitted after the hullabaloo over his statement about consensual sex with minors), and there is nothing he can do to hide it no matter how much he overcompensates.
> 
> So again, if someone is attached to seeing themselves as a nice person, they should steer clear of typing as sx Four, or any very high sx stacking configuration with Four. High sx Fours want to be, like the title of his book, "Dangerous". And in some way actually are.


LOL, what? Where do you see this in Milo, or even in the above clip? 

My thoughts on Milo are he is a counterphobic 6w7 sx/so, but yes, I agree he has a 4-fix. 468 tritype. 

Hmm, such a heart type...






Meanwhile, you say she is a 7, and before that a 6? The most image-focused person on the planet. I used to think she was a 3w4, but I think she's a 4w3 sx/so now. 478 tritype. Her shift into being less "out-there" in recent years is actually growth for 4s believe it or not, especially 4w3s, so saying her singing Sound of Music at Oscars isn't 4 really isn't proof of anything, or says anything substantial about her either. 






I truly don't know how anyone can see this above video, and not see at least a 4-fix in her. A focus on heart, shame, darkness, and being proud of it, and yet, let's put her in the positive triad category! Anyone else who says she is a 4 doesn't understand a 4! :bored:I've heard it over and over again on this forum. 7s often run away from their pain and problems by staying busy and upbeat to keep their mind off of what is troubling them. Think of someone like Craig Ferguson or Robin Williams for a 7, not Lady Gaga. She does have a 7-fix, though.


----------



## misfortuneteller

How about you guys make a thread about 4-ish 2s in general? I just came across someone on twitter saying Lana is defo a 4 cause that's their girl. I had to roll my eyes. I was this close to saying ''is she actually your girl though?'' although they'd probably go on the defence and not listen to anything I had to say.


----------



## nep2une

Animal said:


> @*Roshan*
> Last time we spoke on this thread, I had no idea I had met Lana del Rey in person.
> She was way too skinny, possibly anorexic. Her name was Lizzy Grant, and she had blond hair. I knew the celeb she was dating, and she hung all over him like a puppy. You can see it even in the public pictures of them. She wrote a lot of obsessive stuff about him on her myspace. She had no image that really stood out aside from being classically gorgeous, and she wore typical girlygirl clothes. Her 'dark' image sprung up from nowhere later on and she was so unrecognizable I didn't even realize it was the same woman I met.





PHP:




I really have never felt like her work as Lizzy Grant was particularly different from what she does now. Maybe lighter in sound, faster in tempo, and more on the soprano side but it all seemed to show the same fixations to me.

If anything, digging into her old material made those people who were so obsessed with conspiracy theories about her having been the invention of someone else seem full of shit.


----------



## Animal

nep2une said:


> I really have never felt like her work as Lizzy Grant was particularly different from what she does now. Maybe lighter in sound, faster in tempo, and more on the soprano side but it all seemed to show the same fixations to me.
> 
> If anything, digging into her old material made those people who were so obsessed with conspiracy theories about her having been the invention of someone else seem full of shit.


Her sound is almost exactly the same. Her look and style and IMAGE around her that she markets, is different. Even in the videos


----------



## Dangerose

nep2une said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really have never felt like her work as Lizzy Grant was particularly different from what she does now. Maybe lighter in sound, faster in tempo, and more on the soprano side but it all seemed to show the same fixations to me.
> 
> If anything, digging into her old material made those people who were so obsessed with conspiracy theories about her having been the invention of someone else seem full of shit.


I agree, I really don't see this marked difference

'you have to take me right now from this dark trailer park' for example has the same dark self-pity (wrong word sorta) and melancholy, need for salvation, that in my opinion marks a lot of Lana's music, she's blonde but besides that...it's obviously the same artist

(I think she's a sp/sx 2w3 though, will probably elaborate though it feels like all the arguments have been made)


----------



## Animal

@Nissa Nissa @nep2une
To be fair, when I wrote those posts I was talking directly to Roshan, who understands mechanisms of type in a similar way that I do, so I could skip right over a bunch of explanations for what I meant by it and why it's relevant to the types. My assessment there on its own wouldn't be adequate for a typing argument, but I've delved deeply into this too many times - on this thread or another on this forum, also on my own forum, ad nauseum. So I just wrote it to her because she speaks my language when it comes to looks and how images present.

A lot of people here are skeptical about "typing by appearance." There are certain indicators that someone's appearance gives about type that are undeniable. It's not like "long nose means type 5" or something. Head types tend to have more weight in the fast-moving mind so you see some weight on their head in their posture. 4s tend to have a very specific type of sad eyes but a more disembodied relationship with the body. If you put Prince (4w3) next to Sting (3w4) the latter is much more athletic looking and in his body. 4s spend a lot of time looking into an inner hall of mirrors and identifying with what's inside, so there's a psychological reason why their physiology has a different affect, though you have to have the eye to recognize it,because of course a 4 can be an athlete and build muscles (or a 5 like Trent Reznor who is a fucking beast at this point). I am going to get a lot of backlash for even attempting to cover what I'm talking about here, and I know I don't have enough time to hang around here and convince anyone because it's a type of visual psychology I've been attuned to and studying my whole life, which matches up well with enneagram and translates very well to the typings of real people who agree with those types, as well as commonly agreed upon typings of celebs. Body language is a lot more telling than yapping about oneself. Everyone lies to themselves. Body language can be studied with actors or celebs, but there's still something underlying that cannot be shaken. This is impossible to explain to someone who doesn't see it; it's like telling a tone-deaf person how to hit the right note. That's why I only mention it to people who already understand it, and it's the same with mentioning to @Roshan how image works and is expressed (although that's different from body language) - she already speaks this language.


----------



## Animal

There are probably endless references debating the percentage, but this gets my point across. To ignore this is voluntary ignorance and stubbornness. (Not accusing anyone here of that, but addressing the general argument that body language and image presentation are irrelevant to type.)


Body Language Classes, Research, and Consulting | Nonverbal Group | NYC 


> GO BACKWRITTEN BY BLAKEHOW MUCH OF COMMUNICATION IS REALLY NONVERBAL?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much of communication is really nonverbal?
> One of the most frequently quoted statistics on nonverbal communication is that 93% of all daily communication is nonverbal. Popular science magazines, students and media outlets frequently quote this specific number.
> So where does the number come from? Dr. Albert Mehrabian, author of Silent Messages, conducted several studies on nonverbal communication. He found that 7% of any message is conveyed through words, 38% through certain vocal elements, and 55% through nonverbal elements (facial expressions, gestures, posture, etc). Subtracting the 7% for actual vocal content leaves one with the 93% statistic.
> However, studying human behavior is a challenging task. The inherent flaws of social scientific research methodology combined with the incredible dynamic nature of human behavior make this specific quantification close to impossible.
> The fact of the matter is that the exact number is irrelevant. Knowing that communication is specifically 75% nonverbal or 90% nonverbal holds no practical applications. The important part is that most communication is nonverbal. In fact, nonverbal behavior is the most crucial aspect of communication.
> Based on my own research, I would state that the amount of communication that is nonverbal varies between 60 and 90% on a daily basis. This number depends on both the situation and the individual.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

On Lady Gaga, I don't know her type, but I don't see her as a 4. Not only because I cannot resonate with her, but because her image doesn't seem expressive of inner "flaws." _On the surface it does_, but there is this poetic melancholy that is lacking. She just seems to do things "for the experience" or for the heck of it, sometimes - specially with her costumes. She is quite anti-4. As for instincts, I would have guessed SX last but I don't know.


----------



## Roshan

misfortuneteller said:


> Lana never seemed genuinely different to me. She's probably a sx 2 or a sx 9 even since they tend to be 4-ish? I believe I have a 2w3 sister that acts 4-ish now as well and I actually thought she was a 4w3 when I got into enneagram.


sp/sx 2 who plays sx 2 roles in a lot of her work.

Well she is surely different but what she doesn't have is the sense of being inherently and deeply defective; David Gray actually calls E4 the Alien and that she is not.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Roshan said:


> So again, if someone is attached to seeing themselves as a nice person, they should steer clear of typing as sx Four, or any very high sx stacking configuration with Four.* High sx Fours want to be, like the title of his book, "Dangerous". And in some way actually are.*


I love this...h:



Roshan said:


> It could be 7w6--*the sense of the element of danger of the sx 6 is rather lacking*. But from her own reporting of the themes that have ruled her life, there is an awful lot of Six.


This is definitely Milo...



> Sexual Sixes tend to be very contrarian: they always have an argument at hand to refute and contradict an opinion. Instead of thinking in terms of "best-case" or "worst-case" scenarios, they think in terms of contrarian scenarios-if the trend is for others to focus on the worst, they will focus on the best; but if everyone is focusing on the best, they will assert the worst.


I don't even know if he has a 4-fix, he could be 3-fixed too, or that's just disintegration to 3. 468 tritype is fitting, though.


----------



## Roshan

mistakenforstranger said:


> LOL, what? Where do you see this in Milo, or even in the above clip?
> 
> My thoughts on Milo are he is a counterphobic 6w7 sx/so, but yes, I agree he has a 4-fix. 468 tritype.
> 
> Hmm, such a heart type...


Yes, I do see that, in every moment of that video. And that comment was followed by a discussion of why Naranjo had typed Hitler as a Four, and of sx4's compensatory hate, what Riso and Hudson called Viking hate.

The person in the above video is so uncomfortable in his own skin and so shame-ridden that he can barely bear to look people in the eye. He looks like he wishes to be beamed immediately back to his home planet. Squirming and oozing shame and envy. Envy in high sx 4 becomes compensatory hate. Etc. etc. etc.

If you think the pathetic little ball of over-compensating shame is a _*counterphobic *_Six of all things--counterphobic Sixes don't squirm and apologize for being alive with their body language while they're entering the burning building, so to speak. This is his chosen battle. He's in the bull ring now. Why is he so ashamed? Maybe you ought to watch that video of Milo with the sound off and actually look at what's in it and not what you want there to be before you LOL me about that typing again. 

E4 is _*imploded image. *_It's utterly stunning how imploded his image remains, how painfully self-conscious the poor thing is despite assertive wing, most assertive type in gut, and EVEN IF he had a counterphobic Six fix (his head fix is CLEARLY Seven... ) that would STILL manifest on the surface as assertive. Yet there is just this ball of over-compensatory shame. 

If you can't see how prominent the Four is in Milo, or his Seven--if you think my typing of Milo is so absurd you have to LOL me...well then, as for Gaga, whatever.


----------



## Roshan

Three years ago or so, I predicted that with all the ease of access of everyone to make "art" and express themselves to the planet...to shoot their wad of "creativity" into the global spitoon of the Internet...with all the ease of making videos and music and god knows what and then having it instantaneously shot like lightning around the world...with everybody doing it, everybody being soooo "creative", everybody having an instant audience, that for a lot of Fours, the new creativity would have to be found in reality. And thus they would turn in larger numbers to politics. 

Reality being the only interesting art form left and turning away from the ideal of "self-expression" the only way to be unique. 

Milo is a political artist. 

I do wish he would stop saying all Muslims should be deported though.


----------



## Animal

@*Roshan*
I'm not even a Soc dom and my fantasy novel has a lot of politics, world take-over, political hierarchy themes, as an overdeveloped backdrop for a deep personal coming of age/romance story. 

Soc 3 character trying to get to the top of the heirarchy, Sx 4 character BLASTING THE FUCK through it.


----------



## Roshan

Animal said:


> Sx 4 character BLASTING THE FUCK through it.


Yes, that would be Milo.


----------



## Animal

Roshan said:


> Yes, that would be Milo.


This character is the best mirror of myself that I've built yet. He's so important that it requires 1.5 books in the series to set the backdrop for his grand entrance. :kitteh: People will wonder where the fuck the sex and the 4 is in book 1 (aside from the scenes where his 'trail' is present).


----------



## Aluminum Frost

She's ISFP and 4w3. Sensor is less associated with 4 but ISFP fits well and 4w5 is probably what most people think when they hear 4 as opposed to 4w3.


----------



## Roshan

Aluminum Frost said:


> She's ISFP and 4w3. Sensor is less associated with 4 but ISFP fits well and 4w5 is probably what most people think when they hear 4 as opposed to 4w3.


And you read this thread, right?


----------



## Aluminum Frost

Roshan said:


> And you read this thread, right?


Fuck no, I don't need to read 23 pages of other peoples opinions to have my own.


----------



## Animal

Aluminum Frost said:


> Fuck no, I don't need to read 23 pages of other peoples opinions to have my own.


Your opinion is worthless on a thread where great points have been made which you have not addressed or challenged.


----------



## Animal

I love statements like "I'm entitled to my opinion."
Wow, thanks for enlightening me. I had NO IDEA that people were entitled to their own opinion. Really, I'm on my knees praising the gods that someone finally told me that they're entitled to their own opinion!

Yeah..this is obvious. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink.  

But why spout your opinion in a public setting? What is the purpose of that? You're entitled to your opinion, yes, and you are entitled to spout it.. but what will other people think of you, or your opinion, if it offers nothing to challenge the strong arguments presented AND it's presented in such a defiant way, like "I'm ENTITLED to it!" In what way does this contribute to anything compassionate or productive?

Really, what is the point of this?

I see it so often on forums.. but nobody behaves this way in real life.
When people behave this way on forums I suspect they have never actually stood up to anyone in real life. Either that or they've never fostered a respectful relationship with anyone which included disagreements.


----------



## Aluminum Frost

Animal said:


> I love statements like "I'm entitled to my opinion."
> Wow, thanks for enlightening me. I had NO IDEA that people were entitled to their own opinion. Really, I'm on my knees praising the gods that someone finally told me that they're entitled to their own opinion!
> 
> Yeah..this is obvious. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink.
> 
> But why spout your opinion in a public setting? What is the purpose of that? You're entitled to your opinion, yes, and you are entitled to spout it.. but what will other people think of you, or your opinion, if it offers nothing to challenge the strong arguments presented AND it's presented in such a defiant way, like "I'm ENTITLED to it!" In what way does this contribute to anything compassionate or productive?
> 
> Really, what is the point of this?
> 
> I see it so often on forums.. but nobody behaves this way in real life.
> When people behave this way on forums I suspect they have never actually stood up to anyone in real life. Either that or they've never fostered a respectful relationship with anyone which included disagreements.


Get over yourself kid. If you have a problem with what I said then address it. You say you've come up with arguments? Lets hear them then. I'm not sifting through 23 pages or even hundreds to thousands depending on the thread before posting. You're just trying to shut me up. You're coming across as stupid. You should be thankful if anything I didn't read through this entire thread cause it would most likely just confirm my suspicions about you anyways


----------



## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> I should mention I have Borderline PD. I have healed a lot, but it's still very much in progress. So that influences who I am and how I see myself.
> 
> .


Where to begin? 

Thanks for the long detailed post. Let's start here.

Are you saying your BPD interferes with or somehow deforms what would otherwise be your basic personality?


----------



## Roshan

@Animal, 

Tag tells me you should get...um..."this person" to be in your band.

Bass is kicking, drums is drumming / Beatin' down the block, you can hear me fucking / Bass is kicking, drums is drumming / Beatin' down the block, you can hear me cuming.


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> Where to begin?
> 
> Thanks for the long detailed post. Let's start here.
> 
> Are you saying your BPD interferes with or somehow deforms what would otherwise be your basic personality?


I have been told I am not my illness, and I do see that, but I do think that whatever negative qualities are being dragged out thanks to BPD, do reflect who I really am.


----------



## Roshan

@Hermetica thanks drummer boy for asserting his right to have an opinion without reading a thing. 

I guess that means he doesn't take me up on my very generous offer to go through my arguments point by point about whether Lana del Rey is 4w3 or 2w3 because clearly Lana, like Oscar Wilde and Dorian Grey, is a "dandy". Her expressive self-identity is elegant clothes. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...8zZAhXIl-AKHSBxBJIQ_AUICigB&biw=2560&bih=1309


----------



## Roshan

@Hermetica thanks drummer boy for asserting his right to have an opinion without reading a thing. 

I guess that means he doesn't take me up on my very generous offer to go through my arguments point by point about whether Lana del Rey is 4w3 or 2w3 because clearly Lana, like Oscar Wilde and Dorian Grey, is a "dandy". Her expression of identity manifest itself in elegant clothes. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...8zZAhXIl-AKHSBxBJIQ_AUICigB&biw=2560&bih=1309


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## Roshan

There was Dorian, there was Oscar, there was Quentin Crisp, and Anna Wintour, the editor of Vogue, and now there's Lana.

Lana Del Rey Street Style - Out With a Friend in New York City - June 2014


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## Animal

.


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## Roshan

Sting's (3w4) tribute to Quentin Crisp, the 4w3 dandy and early icon for gay rights.


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## Animal

Aluminum Frost said:


> Get over yourself kid. If you have a problem with what I said then address it. You say you've come up with arguments? Lets hear them then. I'm not sifting through 23 pages or even hundreds to thousands depending on the thread before posting. You're just trying to shut me up. You're coming across as stupid. You should be thankful if anything I didn't read through this entire thread cause it would most likely just confirm my suspicions about you anyways


Wow, you're lovely. I wonder if my husband will be offended if I tell you that you're the sexiest thing that ever came to this forum. Damn. Women, or men, whatever you fancy, must throw themselves at you with this kind of finesse. I'm unduly impressed.


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## Roshan

@Animal, I already got him. The rest is just window dressing.


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## Animal

Roshan said:


> @*Hermetica* thanks drummer boy for asserting his right to have an opinion without reading a thing.
> 
> I guess that means he doesn't take me up on my very generous offer to go through my arguments point by point about whether Lana del Rey is 4w3 or 2w3 because clearly Lana, like Oscar Wilde and Dorian Grey, is a "dandy". Her expression of identity manifest itself in elegant clothes.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=lan...8zZAhXIl-AKHSBxBJIQ_AUICigB&biw=2560&bih=1309


Hahaha 
She looks so sexy in normal clothes though. :kitteh:


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## Aluminum Frost

Animal said:


> Wow, you're lovely. I wonder if my husband will be offended if I tell you that you're the sexiest thing that ever came to this forum. Damn. Women, or men, whatever you fancy, must throw themselves at you with this kind of finesse. I'm unduly impressed.


Idk, lets ask him


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## Aluminum Frost

Roshan said:


> @Animal, I already got him. The rest is just window dressing.


Hey! Would you be offended if @Animal told you that I'm the sexiest thing that ever came to this forum?


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## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> I have been told I am not my illness, and I do see that, but I do think that whatever negative qualities are bring dragged out thanks to BPD, do reflect who I really am.


The groundbreaking pop psychology book on BPD was called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". Have you read it? Whether you did or didn't, does that resonate with you?


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## Animal

Aluminum Frost said:


> Hey! Would you be offended if @*Animal* told you that I'm the sexiest thing that ever came to this forum?


Awww how cute.. having fantasies about sexy older women getting it on? I can hear you cuming down the block!


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## Roshan

Animal said:


> Awww how cute.. having fantasies about sexy older women getting it on? I can hear you cuming down the block!


Please don't feed into this. It isn't worth it.


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## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> The groundbreaking pop psychology book on BPD was called "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". Have you read it? Whether you did or didn't, does that resonate with you?


I didn't read the book...I guess it didn't interest me as much, plus I dislike the "pop psychology" take on most things. I am, however, reading "Borderline Personality: Vision and Healing," which is very interesting though not immediately easy to understand as most of anything coming from Psychoanalytical roots. I do love what I have read so far, though. 

As for the title "I hate you, don't leave me," that does resonate. Since I hate when someone starts abandoning me, or doesn't feel as close as I want him to be - things like that. I don't do the "Viking Hate" thing but that doesn't mean those feelings won't be felt by the other person. They are probably indirect and under the surface.

I am just really sick of the SX 4 being parroted around as this CN description, because I know myself and other SX 4s I have met are not like this. They aren't even necessarily like me. We are all different, and I am seriously sick and tired of the 8-fixed, low Fi, 3 influenced 4 somehow representing all "SX 4s." That's the way I see it, anyway.


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## Roshan

@*Rose for a Heart*,

Look, Naranjo's descriptions can be very limiting. His old E9 only described sx last 9s without a 4 or 5 fix, mostly with an 8 wing too. So it did a lot of damage for atypical Nines in terms of being able to self-type. But once they have self-typed, there's something in there for them because it helps to remember what it means to have sloth underneath all those bells and whistles in say a Hendrix or a Bjork. 

What's at the bottom of E4 is envy and Naranjo postulates that for the sx Four that envy is hateful and competitive. I don't agree with the competitive (not literally anyway) but I've seen this hate come out at the low levels in some pretty sweet-seeming Fours. 

The title "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" isn't about hating someone because they're leaving you. It's about doing things that drive people away because of the splitting mechanism of making someone "all bad" because you magnified a perceived slight a million times due to emotional hemmorrhaging from poor boundaries. 

It's about making people leave, telling them or making them know you hate them, and THEN saying don't leave.

Not you? No hysterics over something you think someone meant when they don't know what you're talking about and telling them how awful they are and then they want to leave and you say no, please please don't?

Not just abandonment anxiety but provoking the abandonment first.

Not you?


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## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> @*Rose for a Heart*,
> 
> Look, Naranjo's descriptions can be very limiting. His old E9 only described sx last 9s without a 4 or 5 fix, mostly with an 8 wing too. So it did a lot of damage for atypical Nines in terms of being able to self-type. But once they have self-typed, there's something in there for them because it helps to remember what it means to have sloth underneath all those bells and whistles in say a Hendrix or a Bjork.
> 
> What's at the bottom of E4 is envy and Naranjo postulates that for the sx Four that envy is hateful and competitive. I don't agree with the competitive (not literally anyway) but I've seen this hate come out at the low levels in some pretty sweet-seeming Fours.


Then sure, I can be "hateful." I have raw emotions either way, including hate. 



> The title "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" isn't about hating someone because they're leaving you. It's about doing things that drive people away because of the splitting mechanism of making someone "all bad" because you magnified a perceived slight a million times due to emotional hemmorrhaging from poor boundaries.
> 
> It's about making people leave, telling them or making them know you hate them, and THEN saying don't leave.
> 
> Not you? No hysterics over something you think someone meant when they don't know what you're talking about and telling them how awful they are and then they want to leave and you say no, please please don't?
> 
> Not just abandonment anxiety but provoking the abandonment first.
> 
> Not you?


Yeah I relate completely to all that. Sorry, just not in a good place to talk about my BPD...having been dissociating and very stressed out due to some fundamental re-shaping of my psyche that has been going on for the past few months.


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## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> Then sure, I can be "hateful." I have raw emotions either way, including hate.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I relate completely to all that. Sorry, just not in a good place to talk about my BPD...having been dissociating and very stressed out due to some fundamental re-shaping of my psyche that has been going on for the past few months.


Sorry to hear that. No need to talk about it anymore anyway from my pov after this post because really the point I wanted to make is that with Naranjo as partial as his descriptions can be--like his early 9 being sx last 9w8s without 4 or 5 fix--there's always a kernel of something. So even though he did make it difficult for those atypical 9s to type themselves correctly, the Hendrixes and Bjorks, once they finally do they have a core of something really solid to understand the sloth beneath those bells and whistles. 

I don't think sx Fours are out to conquer the world. I'm not thinking about Maria Callas playing Medea. I think Milo's very unusual.

I also think people tend to have the disorders--barring organic damage--that go with their full typing and BPD is most common with non sx last Fours and high sx 6w7s. A Six fix in the 4 helps, a 4 fix in the 6 helps. And there are reasons for that. The abandonment issues, the boundary issues and so forth are already there. 

And I think BPD can even be seen as a way of describing the low levels of those particular 4 and 6 combos (though other types can have it too but it's much less common). So that's where Naranjo's on to something even though he goes way too far with the assertive aspects of the hate. No, most Fours don't go out and kill Cain, start revolutions or even become Milo.

It's within the interpersonal relationships moment to moment that this killing takes place. And that's really all that I wanted to say.


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## Roshan

ps So it's just a health level thing, you see. Like with any of the other types and combinations. You go up the ladder of the levels of health and this cluster of traits that intersect that is given this particular name, this syndrome, this diagnosis, it goes away.


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## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> I also think people tend to have the disorders--barring organic damage--that go with their full typing and BPD is most common with non sx last Fours and high sx 6w7s. A Six fix in the 4 helps, a 4 fix in the 6 helps. And there are reasons for that. The abandonment issues, the boundary issues and so forth are already there.
> 
> And I think BPD can even be seen as a way of describing the low levels of those particular 4 and 6 combos (though other types can have it too but it's much less common). So that's where Naranjo's on to something even though he goes way too far with the assertive aspects of the hate. No, most Fours don't go out and kill Cain, start revolutions or even become Milo.
> 
> It's within the interpersonal relationships moment to moment that this killing takes place. And that's really all that I wanted to say.


I am not entirely sure what you mean by "killing" here, and I don't know what "kill Cain" means. 

I do have a feeling that many of those with BPD are 6s. It's not something I have evidence for, but I have been part of online groups for BPD, and I see a lot of free-form rambling and venting about something personal going on in their lives, but very little this sort of...careful cutting and trimming of the image before presenting it that is evident in image types. Most of these people are not overly invested in their image. I would guess Head types > heart types > gut types when it comes to who has BPD.

And yes I suspected as much with the 4 and 6 combo and some BPD symptoms, including invalidation. 469 is called "triple doubting" and it fits right into why my brain is so susceptible to feeling invalidated. I am never completely sure of anything. Though I am fine with that. I am fine with being relatively sure - that's good enough for me. I like to leave things open ended. But when interacting with those who are sure of themselves, I really clash and it starts fueling this inner mindfuck of self-invalidation and doubting.


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## Dangerose

Animal said:


> I love statements like "I'm entitled to my opinion."
> Wow, thanks for enlightening me. I had NO IDEA that people were entitled to their own opinion. Really, I'm on my knees praising the gods that someone finally told me that they're entitled to their own opinion!
> 
> Yeah..this is obvious. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink.
> 
> But why spout your opinion in a public setting? What is the purpose of that? You're entitled to your opinion, yes, and you are entitled to spout it.. but what will other people think of you, or your opinion, if it offers nothing to challenge the strong arguments presented AND it's presented in such a defiant way, like "I'm ENTITLED to it!" In what way does this contribute to anything compassionate or productive?
> 
> Really, what is the point of this?
> 
> I see it so often on forums.. but nobody behaves this way in real life.
> When people behave this way on forums I suspect they have never actually stood up to anyone in real life. Either that or they've never fostered a respectful relationship with anyone which included disagreements.


come on, call off the dogs
pretty sure this person saw the thread, clicked on it and gave his opinion, not exactly a criminal offense


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## Cracked Actor

Nissa Nissa said:


> come on, call off the dogs
> pretty sure this person saw the thread, clicked on it and gave his opinion, not exactly a criminal offense


Yes. Also, I don't deserve an onslaught of verbal attacks from more than one member for merely liking another member's post in this thread.


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## Animal

Nissa Nissa said:


> come on, call off the dogs
> pretty sure this person saw the thread, clicked on it and gave his opinion, not exactly a criminal offense


I wrote on his wall and apologized. I even made the follow-up exchange humorous here, because I realized right away it was an overreaction in the moment and didn't need to be a huge fight. 

To be clear though, the offense was not stating his opinion. That's a misread of the situation. The offense was him being (what I read as) rude when asked whether he had read the thread. But it's minor, it's over, I took responsibility with him and resolved it. The "dogs" were called off long ago, but thanks for looking out.


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## Rose for a Heart

Roshan said:


> Sx and Four are very similar. So being an sx Four is like being Four to the Fourth power. It's something like being a Sixteen. And that is why unless it's really healthy it has to employ an over-compensatory mechanism of demeaning those that don't bolster its sense of uniqueness. Which at average levels is more like competitiveness (an offshoot from E3), and at the lower levels becomes quite hateful. It's what happens with the Envy. For an sx Four to function with all that raw awareness of envy (inferiority/superiority), they have to over-compensate, as @*Animal* once said, like vampires. They need to eat YOUR self-image in some way (by degrading you, beating you at something, possessing you, abandoning you, whatever) in order to bolster theirs.
> 
> It's not a common typing and it's not a pleasant typing, for themselves or for those close to them. It's probably the last thing anyone would want to be if they really understood it. So if you're deeply attached to being somehow a nice person you might reconsider your stacking.


Not to mention I find this presumptuous and arrogant. Feel free to be as skeptical as you like, but I am *not *one of those who mistype themselves because they are a wannabe [type]. I don't have the luxury; I have been through hell and I am more and more losing my capacity for any self-deception.
Also everything you have said about "SX 4" in this specific post seems actually type 3-ish.


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## Dangerose

@Animal aha, then I'm sorry for not doing my research properly))


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## Animal

Nissa Nissa said:


> @*Animal* aha, then I'm sorry for not doing my research properly))


Nah it's ok, you're fine. Good looking out. 
You couldn't have possibly known as I took it to his wall so as to avoid disrupting the thread.

The truth of the matter is,
I have relentless insomnia. I rarely post here, or even check this website, because when I'm at home on computer I'm working on my novel and use my short breaks to check up on my own forum (which I sometimes don't even do for days). The periods when I'm posting here a lot are usually the times when I'm either too sick or haven't slept in days, so I can't work on my novel.

Yesterday was day 4 on about 4 hours sleep total due to insomnia.
I was not in my best form.


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## Roshan

Rose for a Heart said:


> I am not entirely sure what you mean by "killing" here, and I don't know what "kill Cain" means.
> 
> I do have a feeling that many of those with BPD are 6s. It's not something I have evidence for, but I have been part of online groups for BPD, and I see a lot of free-form rambling and venting about something personal going on in their lives, but very little this sort of...careful cutting and trimming of the image before presenting it that is evident in image types. Most of these people are not overly invested in their image. I would guess Head types > heart types > gut types when it comes to who has BPD.
> 
> And yes I suspected as much with the 4 and 6 combo and some BPD symptoms, including invalidation. 469 is called "triple doubting" and it fits right into why my brain is so susceptible to feeling invalidated. I am never completely sure of anything. Though I am fine with that. I am fine with being relatively sure - that's good enough for me. I like to leave things open ended. But when interacting with those who are sure of themselves, I really clash and it starts fueling this inner mindfuck of self-invalidation and doubting.


Killing Cain is part of what Naranjo said about sx Four in those tapes I mentioned but I remembered incorrectly and thought it was also in his well-known descriptions of sx Fours. It refers to the bibiical story of Abel killing his brother, Cain because God preferred Cain's sacrifices to Abel's. In the Judaic cosmology it's the first, primoridial murder. I assumed you already knew that though. Just dotting my t's and crossing my i's. What makes it relevant to Naranjo's discussion of E4 is that Cain killed the person closest to him out of envy. 

On this thread when I said I didn't think sx Fours kill Cain, I meant I don't think they're a typing configuration likely to commit literal murder. I do think they commit figurative murder, within their small everyday personal interactions, especially of those closest to them, at low average to unhealthy levels of health according to the Riso Hudson scale. Not surprisingly this is also the case with sx Sixes especially if with 4 at those levels, and also of borderlines in general. 

That "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" means both "I hate you because you're leaving me" AND "You're leaving me because I behave hatefully" is what I mean by the killings. The hateful behavior that provokes the abandonment kills Cain by destroying the possibility of lasting intimate relationships, and it also hurts other people very very badly. 

Borderlines are both victims and victimizers, they are the murdered and the murderer and if they truly want to overcome the disorder they have to accept that they embody and are working through an eternal human drama--the Victimized Victimizer, or Victimizing Victim, makes no difference how you choose to language it--in a particularly challenging form. 

As for your clashing with people who are sure of themselves, may I say I couldn't help but notice. And with that said, I'll turn shortly to answering your next post to me. But first a musical interlude.

As prelude.


----------



## Roshan

On the island 
there are no places or people. 
And I'll go walking 
and on the way I'll find you. 
On the way I'll find 
the magic trick inverts. 

And the way to get there 
is going round in circles. 

And the way to get there 
la-da-da-da-da-da-da. 

cuz I am the searchlight, 
not the seeker, not the found. 
and I am the midwife, 
not the newborn, not the bearer. 

(Gave birth to the child and came back again.)

Shut your eyes and listen. 
And the way to get there 
la-da-da-da-da-da-da. 

And I am the wood fire, 
not the broken, not the crowned. 
and I am the midwife, 
gave birth to the child and came back again. 

And I am the murder, 
not the suspect, not the victim. 
and I am the reasons, 
not the questions,not the answers 

(the air!) 

And i am the mourner 
not the suspect, not the victim. 
and i am the reasons, 
not the question, not the answer 

(the air!) 

La-da-da-da, where ever you will find them.​


----------



## snowbell

*Thread closed pending review.*


*Thread requested to stay closed by the OP*


----------

