# Fi vs Fe (ISFP or INFJ)



## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

So I confuse myself with these two types from time to time, and the main thing is I can't really decide whether I use Fi or Fe, so. It's hard to write up a list of things but I'll try.

(Not much to do with Fi or Fe,) I am an artist. I enjoy working with my hands and pens pencil paints etc. I am pretty good at simply sketching people and landscape and city-scape from life. But I often have difficulties come up with ideas for art, and I love it when someone offer me brilliant ideas to visualize and a way to visualize.

I have a college degree in art and humanities. I like philosophy and politics, intellectual history and some actual history and some others. I enjoy reading and thinking about these things, but not always good at talking about them. I enjoy theories and concepts, sometimes it helps me understand the world, about human mind, and about why the thinkers think in a certain way and not the others by studying historical trend and social environment, by comparing one another, and how that mentality affects the whole thing, etc, etc. Sometimes it simply exercises my brain and my thinking. I find certain facts to be boring especially those of numbers. All these make me feel like an intuitive.

I definitely don't feel like an Fe-dom who is loud and feel like she has to follow group norms or everyone else has to, but I enjoy helping people. It's nice to see people happy but I don't actively do things to keep them happy. I hate it when people say "snap it out, cheer up!" to someone who looks unhappy. I usually don't have much feeling when I see someone who looks very upset, maybe a little bit disturbed but that's all. However, I might do something about it when I have the impulse to or just for some "important" reason I want to see them happy, but this happens just very once in a while and it's kinda random.

I like to blame things on myself but people usually don't know that I feel this way, unless I confess about it but I usually don't talk about it either, which is also the case with my feeling and emotion. Then when I say it, people are surprised, not only at that particular case but also that I can be so deeply and seriously caring about others. I am really not wording it correctly because I really am not that compassionate as it sounds like, at least not regularly. What I am trying to say is people usually think more highly of me or take me on a more serious level after I talk about my "deep" "feeling" or "emotion". A lot of time I don't care. I don't have that much energy as I already spend most of it on myself and my problem and on thinking and doing things. But I also feel like I don't really care much about myself, like physically, and emotionally it's pretty much whatever. I do what I want to and a lot of time it's also whatever, and whatever happens tomorrow.

I am not very good with norms. Sometimes I am aware but I typically don't think about it when I enter a place or a group of people. When I am aware of what is and is not appropriate, I might be a bit more conscious. Like I wont talk loud when attending a public speech because you simply wouldn't want to be disturbed by annoying noises when you are listening to someone. However, a lot of time I probably don't care about norm enough to conduct "appropriate" behavior. With that being said, most norms are meaningless to me and I don't see the point of most of these things... I think I am fine as long as I am not causing troubles to others. I feel bad about making people feel bad.

I am not good at standing up for myself or defending my value or what I really think and believe. I can be easily "defeated" and made following others' will. (Hate to admit that and I really need to work on it....) And I feel extremely guilty and miserable and cowardice and even worthless afterward.

I am not good at communication, I tend to avoid conflict and I am not confrontational. Sometimes I just disappear. I feel awkward expressing love and compliment face to face, and I feel a little bit awkward receiving compliment, too. I mean I feel flattered but.

I tend to be a perfectionist. I hold high standard on how I should be and what I do. It hardly work for me to hearing others saying that my work is great or I am doing a good job. I have to convince myself on my own somehow. However, I make it easier for myself when I don't have much personal attachment to my work or when I understand that the point of the work/project is to reach a certain "objective" goal, and it already does, not sure if that make sense...

Yes I am an artist and I love to make art and do a bunch of related things and different projects, but sometimes it also feels like I don't really know what I want to do. In my heart I want to do something big and for the "greater good" and society and I don't know what that is. (It seems to me an Fi-dom will have pretty great and clear ideas about it.) And that's probably nothing more than a thought, really. But I would probably feel pretty boring if I have my life 20 years ahead of me being planned out, too.

I hardly plan anything and I feel most comfortable when there's not any plan. But I think I am less spontaneous, have less physical energy, am more serious and inhibited than most ISFPs. My energy is on and off. Sometimes I work like crazy, pulling up all-nighters, and other times I am a complete sloth. I am also not as passionate about finding new experience and not as outdoorsy as most SPs. It's just that I need to be outdoor for at least awhile every day or I feel sick... and I like going to outdoor events and festivals, trying out new food, etc. I used to do sports, too. I always enjoy hands-on learning and experience.

Freedom is extremely important to me.

That's all I have...


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

I apologize that I don't have a lot to contribute at this time, but I would like to point out that if you are considering the idea that you could be an INFJ, then I would compare Fi to Ni rather than Fi and Fe. Auxiliary functions manifest differently than the dominant.


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Well, I have trouble explaining the difference between both, but at least I can give you this link :
funkymbtifiction.tumblr.com/cognitivefunctions

The huge difference is between Ni and Fi (Like PaladinX says). You have to compare both, and think about which one you use the most.
Both INFJs and ISFPs arent good with norms.
INFJs believe in conspiration, ISFP are more melancholic. But INFJs are confused about themselves, ISFPs are quite at ease with their feelings. They're both perfectionnist, and artistic.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

I am still hoping to get some feedback on my use of Fi vs Fe...

It's hard to pinpoint my Ni or tell what it is how it works in me, and then I can be an INTJ even if I decide I am an Ni-dom because I don't know which feeling function I use.


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## quaestio (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm testing some ideas and would welcome feedback. Take it with many grains of salt but it'll maybe help. 

Perception: The word 'pond'. What does it conjure for you? 

From my understanding, both Si and Ni could conjure an image in response. The difference, however, is where this image comes from. A person who prefers Si would likely be aware: their pond would be real, something they had seen and remembered. A person using Ni, I think, would not know where their image came from. Possibly the explanation is that is a condensed version of every pond their mind remembers, a sort of combination, so it may have vague similarities to ponds they know, yet still be different. [That's not to say that a Ni type couldn't remember the appearance of an object. Maybe if they often interacted with a certain object, that would even become their subjective image, at least sometimes, but I'm not sure really.] For both, the subjective image would be able to overpower objective reality, like maybe not noticing the pond in front of you because the pond in your mind doesn't resemble it. I don't think Se and Ne led types would have the same problem. For them, the real pond would objectively exist and so be more powerful than the subjective pond - for Ne, it's possibilities and the ideas the real pond gives, and for Se, the experience that the real pond is a part of, its details, I suppose?

Judgement: Are you ever chameleonic? When you reach inside for a judging process rather than reaching outwards, is it thinking or feeling that is happening?

I'm thinking that I mistyped as a Fi-dom, because having evaluated myself some more, I'm like this: I can be swayed by feeling from others, but my own logic and rationalisations can be rather stubborn, which seems more Fe-Ti. What this translates to is that other people convince me of something, and I'll feel that it's correct for a time, but then at some point I will evaluate it inwardly and see the inconsistencies, where it doesn't fit and how not logical it is, at least according to what I see logic as being. I can sure be stubborn about values I hold dear, but sometimes other people can convince me to 'try on' their opinions for a time, as if values are a piece of clothing and I have to wear them for a month to see how well they fit. Example: when I was 17, I hadn't had a relationship and didn't particularly want one either, but other people kept pressuring me to seek one. A friend said about our other friend who had just got a boyfriend: 'I would have thought you'd have got one before her.' On and on it went, making me more and more aware of how what I judged as important differed from societal expectations. It made me feel inferior. Around the same time there was someone who expressed interest in me, so I decided to try and pursue him. You can see how others changed how I valued 'having a relationship'. My experiences here actually taught me a lot, and I went back to before, thinking that relationships and me were not that interested in each other. Yet, unlike before, I would have periods of time where I worried that I would 'never be loved' and 'always be alone'. I decided to be true to myself and only choose relationships for personal, meaningful reasons, and yet my valuation of relationships did not change back to quite what it was before - I mean, that would have been not wanting a relationship at all. The world had spoken. I had listened. 

You could say that the above is like an elastic band. You ping it back (societal pressure), let it go (reaction to societal pressure), and it may reassert back to its natural shape, but ping it enough and it will change shape, either slightly or radically. I imagine Fi is less elastic, though I certainly don't view Fi as unchangeable. I think this is why it is important that one judging process is extraverted, and the other introverted. It's a balance.

As to how I felt about this experience - I was annoyed with myself for making myself go through with it and I felt I'd broken some of my values needlessly and caused embarrassment that could have been avoided and it was not nice. However, although I wish it hadn't needed to happen in some ways, I look on it as a largely positive experience because it taught me things about what I want. I think Fe-users can of course feel bad about breaking their values, or else what would hold them to morality? But maybe the difference is in whether you can find a way to see it as a positive experience, a broadening of perspective, or if it feels like a betrayal of yourself first and foremost.

Anyway, I think the above is Fe/Ti. HAHA... but maybe I'm talking nonsense. =)

Also, for what it's worth, I think a Sensor could have the interests you do. I mean, I don't see why not. But you could be an NJ... only you can say, in the end.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Just food for thought here.

I've been told that INFJ can confuse themselves as thinkers because they can jump from Ni to Ti as neither Fe or Ti are in direct conflict with with their dominant Ni.

Drawing parallels between that and an Isfp being confused with an intuitive would not be uncommon too.
Fi would be able to jump to Ni for the same reasons described.

I think I've also come across somewhere that the third function can sometimes be just as strong as the auxiliary.

If you are tossing up between INFJ and ISFP then look at the inferior function.


Can I ask, do you know what you are feeling most of the time? Are you able to sort through these feelings by your self? When you find yourself in a position of peer group pressure (like the post above me) will you easily give in?


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

Ksara said:


> Just food for thought here.
> 
> I've been told that INFJ can confuse themselves as thinkers because they can jump from Ni to Ti as neither Fe or Ti are in direct conflict with with their dominant Ni.
> 
> ...


I definitely think about things, sometimes a lot. I am not sure if I really understand Ti, but I identify with the Fi-Ni loop, which is a depressing experience and it's often paralyzing and stagnating for my life.



> Can I ask, do you know what you are feeling most of the time? Are you able to sort through these feelings by your self? When you find yourself in a position of peer group pressure (like the post above me) will you easily give in?


It's a hard question. I wish I can give a good and whole answer. A lot of time I feel rather indifferent. But I always work on and sort through my feeling on my own. It's a matter of time and thinking. Sometimes my feelings are so overwhelming that I get really intense and I dwell on that particular feeling, then I get stuck, or that I stop thinking about it and switch to something else and come back on it later. But I wouldn't really want to talk about it because it's so massive, or overbearing, or complicated, and it's hard to talk about or to put into words as well. It feels like I know my feeling but sometimes also can't quite tell what it is. When I feel depressed, I know I am sad and depressed, but it also feels more than those words.

The peer group pressure part. It's also a hard question. I guess it depends. A lot of the time I don't care. Sometimes I give in but at heart I usually don't. I might do something due to outside pressure, but I always feel bad about it afterward. If I changed my mind or my value to conform, I often feel bad and guilty later on when I look back at it.

This may help. Yesterday I came across some news on the internet about some ongoing social movement and protest and the politics in the world, and I thought about my dad and several parts of the conversation we had two days ago about the issue. We had pretty different opinions on politics. It got kinda hostile. He seemed to get angry, and I would be less wanting to talk about politics with him anymore. It also depressed me for some reason. Anyway, so I read the news, got more information, thought about parts of that conversation, and I started to rethink my side. I changed a little bit, but I still stood firm on my core value. But I enriched my understanding, my thought, opinion, values, etc. etc. I also thought about myself as a person and the whole thing. What did I really stand for? How valid was this and that, etc. At the end of the thought process it got pretty heavy and there's also a lot of emotion and feeling as well. I got tired and I went on to do something else.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

uncertain said:


> I definitely think about things, sometimes a lot. I am not sure if I really understand Ti, but I identify with the Fi-Ni loop, which is a depressing experience and it's often paralyzing and stagnating for my life.
> 
> It's a hard question. I wish I can give a good and whole answer. A lot of time I feel rather indifferent. But I always work on and sort through my feeling on my own. It's a matter of time and thinking. Sometimes my feelings are so overwhelming that I get really intense and I dwell on that particular feeling, then I get stuck, or that I stop thinking about it and switch to something else and come back on it later. But I wouldn't really want to talk about it because it's so massive, or overbearing, or complicated, and it's hard to talk about or to put into words as well. It feels like I know my feeling but sometimes also can't quite tell what it is. When I feel depressed, I know I am sad and depressed, but it also feels more than those words.
> 
> ...


How I obsserve this I think there is a lot of Fi here.


I haven't confirmed it but I have a little theory on emotions, Fi and Fe.

Emotions are our physical response to a situation (be it a racing heart, or sweaty hands, etc.).
I believe introverted feeling brings attention to these emotions by bringing them into the concious mind via feeling tones. That is Fi users tend to know what they are feeling (even if they can't put words to it).
Feeling indifferent is still identifying feeling within (or perhaps lack of feeling tone for something).

I believe Fe on the other hand expresses these emotions to form an understanding of what they are feeling. That is those who favor Fe tend to want to talk to others or write down their emotions in a journal to understand what they are feeling. Because they extrovert their feeling into the world, they will also pick up on others emotion. I think Fe for this reason is more likely to give into peer pressure as they want the overall mood of the group to remain positive (and they may not know how they feel about it on the inside, if the truely agree or disagree)

The post seems to favor Fi much more than Fe. You know how you feel, and you very unlikely to go with the crowd, or another's opinion because you are aware of your values.


You last paragraph comes across as Fi and Te to me, using information to validate, or update your values (checking that you inner values aren't so far fetched)
I see this in my partner, ENFP. If he has a difference of opinion with someone he will later check online to find a source that validates his argument haha. You gaining new understanding was good


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Also take what I've said with a grain of salt.
This is only what I've seen through the posts, which is a very limited view of you.
Also my knowledge may not be accurate, and I may have my own biases to what I see and interpret.

Just don't take what I say as the complete truth


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

Thanks! Do you use Fe?


Ksara said:


> I haven't confirmed it but I have a little theory on emotions, Fi and Fe.
> 
> Emotions are our physical response to a situation (be it a racing heart, or sweaty hands, etc.).
> I believe *introverted feeling brings attention to these emotions by bringing them into the concious mind via feeling tones.* That is Fi users tend to know what they are feeling (even if they can't put words to it).
> Feeling indifferent is still identifying feeling within (or perhaps lack of feeling tone for something).


It sounds right to me but I don't know. Doesn't everyone experience emotion in the way described by the bold sentence? Then it sounds like Fe would not experience indifference and some other feelings, and that sounds weird.



> I believe Fe on the other hand expresses these emotions to form an understanding of what they are feeling. That is those who favor Fe tend to want to talk to others or write down their emotions in a journal to understand what they are feeling. Because they extrovert their feeling into the world, they will also pick up on others emotion.


That's interesting. But how would you be able to talk or write about your feeling if you don't know what it is or don't understand it at the first place? I didn't realize such tendency among Fe-user before you say it. I never really understand why some people would be so passionate about writing their own feeling AND show it to everyone. I wrote about my feeling before, too, but as a way for me to let out the emotion or to try capturing it, but then it felt like such a waste of time. Nor would I want to go back to read it. Feel shy and embarrassed about it. :S 

I always think Fe-users know how "they feel" very well because a lot of time their feeling are heavily affected by others' and even reflecting how other feels like a mirror. Even though it may not originally be their own feeling, they can still tell you what's on their mind, right? Or it simply sounds like Fe feeling are easy to verbalize. I don't think Fe ever comes up with his own emotion. If a Fe-user seems to have a strong feeling coming from within, it's from his Si or Ni. What do you think? Do Si/Ni generate emotion? Or it's just plain insight and perception? Another question is, do Fe-user often experience very deep and complicated emotion, such that they don't understand it and thus need to try making sense of it in various way?

And when you say they extravert their feeling, I think you are saying that they direct or express their feeling toward the others. If so, how does this cause them to pick up on others' emotion?

My emotion sometimes get affected by others' too, and this is another part that makes me think I use Fe. For example when I see people in a bad mood, I get awkward and don't know what to do. Sometimes I do feel upset like the person in front of me, but other than that I don't really know how I feel, or the whole thing's just weird. Sometimes I get like "whaaa.... 's going on?" Then when I see people laugh for more than a normal length of time, (whatever that means,) I want to laugh, too, and I laugh. It's funny. Sometimes I do that because people look funny when they laugh like that, but I am not sure if I do that out of other reason.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

uncertain said:


> Thanks! Do you use Fe?
> It sounds right to me but I don't know. Doesn't everyone experience emotion in the way described by the bold sentence? Then it sounds like Fe would not experience indifference and some other feelings, and that sounds weird.


Well from the little research I did apparently a lot of people these days don't pay attention to their emotions. That we live in a society that values rational and logical thought over feelings.
I drew a correlation between Fi and how emotion was defined from feelings.
Though this could very well be incorrect XD

I'll get back to the rest of your post, I'm a bit busy at the moment.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

uncertain said:


> Thanks! Do you use Fe?


I'm not sure myself haha. I thought I did use Fe, but I've realized I spend a lot of my time planning, figuring out what the best way to do something is. So i'd take a stab and say Te/Fi. It is difficult analyzing yourself as your a so close to yourself haha.



uncertain said:


> That's interesting. But how would you be able to talk or write about your feeling if you don't know what it is or don't understand it at the first place? I didn't realize such tendency among Fe-user before you say it. I never really understand why some people would be so passionate about writing their own feeling AND show it to everyone. I wrote about my feeling before, too, but as a way for me to let out the emotion or to try capturing it, but then it felt like such a waste of time. Nor would I want to go back to read it. Feel shy and embarrassed about it. :S


Personally I don't keep a journal on anything. imagine if someone found it D:



uncertain said:


> I always think Fe-users know how "they feel" very well because a lot of time their feeling are heavily affected by others' and even reflecting how other feels like a mirror. Even though it may not originally be their own feeling, they can still tell you what's on their mind, right? Or it simply sounds like Fe feeling are easy to verbalize. I don't think Fe ever comes up with his own emotion. If a Fe-user seems to have a strong feeling coming from within, it's from his Si or Ni. What do you think? Do Si/Ni generate emotion? Or it's just plain insight and perception? Another question is, do Fe-user often experience very deep and complicated emotion, such that they don't understand it and thus need to try making sense of it in various way?
> 
> And when you say they extravert their feeling, I think you are saying that they direct or express their feeling toward the others. If so, how does this cause them to pick up on others' emotion?


I'd say if you're heavily affected by others emotion, then how do you know what you are feeling. Are you feeling your feelings, or do they belong to someone else?
I would take a guess and say Si can experience emotion, but Ni doesn't. When I was looking at emotions and feelings it was stated in a diagram that feelings emotions were in the realm of feeling and sensing, not thinking and intuition.
I'm thinking that an Si user is aware of their inner bodily state, and so would be aware of the emotional effect that have. Si perception has often been described as comparing the past to the present, even prior thoughts and feelings.
I have also seen Ni described as unemotional. Ni is about symbolism, seeing symbolic visions that explain completely the thing the person is seeing/experiencing. I am however not an expert with the perception functions, they are something I'm still learning about myself.
I have an inkling that it is intuition that picks up others emotion, in a way of putting oneself in ones shoes. combine this with Fe an I'd say you get someone who is expressive, but also receptive of the outer mood. Intuition and Fi would be knowing what the person is experiencing by knowing that experience yourself and putting yourself in their shoes.



uncertain said:


> My emotion sometimes get affected by others' too, and this is another part that makes me think I use Fe. For example when I see people in a bad mood, I get awkward and don't know what to do. Sometimes I do feel upset like the person in front of me, but other than that I don't really know how I feel, or the whole thing's just weird. Sometimes I get like "whaaa.... 's going on?" Then when I see people laugh for more than a normal length of time, (whatever that means,) I want to laugh, too, and I laugh. It's funny. Sometimes I do that because people look funny when they laugh like that, but I am not sure if I do that out of other reason.


I get the impression that Fe would not only pick up on the external mood but would also aim to maintain or change it to positive mood. Perhaps Ni and Fe would be more concerned about the persons experience, Si and Fe would do things that help to elevate mood (such as make a hot beverage). I'd say Fi would be more concerned with how you feel in the current situation, in this case awkward or weird.
I'd say Fe laughs because it is appropriate or doesn't want to offend, and Fi laughs because it genuinely finds it funny.




I tend to look at the introverted judging functions as similar to self discipline. They set the inner rules (be it Fi values or Ti principles) and measure the user as to how close they follow these rules. There inner world is somewhat ordered by these functions, leaving the outer world to be disorganized chaos. Fi and Ti doms will often be very critical of themselves, but not so much of others for this reason.

The external judging functions are the ones setting the rules in the world, or observing them. They would use these rules to judge others and how close they follow these rules, (be it objective guide lines Te or social etiquette Fe). These functions have been described as ordering the outside world. Te ad Fe will be much more critical of others compared to the introverted judgers. They feel a need to control their outer world as they inner world is much more chaotic (as the internal judging functions are their inferior).


if you are an Fi dom you will have strict values that youl adhere to, but care little about what happens in the world (as your second function will be an extroverted perceiving function, you will much more likely be taking everything in rather than judge it)
if you are an Ni dom(i'm not as sure about this) you will not have a strict inner world, but one where you're simply taking in information through symbolism, You would also form conclusions about the values of the world. others may see this as judgmental or narrow minded as they miss the inner perceptive world you have.


I hope this helps 
I don't think i'm too off base with what I've written, but again don't take it as the complete truth. I'm not pretending to be an expert


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## lawof23 (Jul 25, 2014)

@uncertain,

Hopefully you feel this is getting you somewhere. Thanks for the opportunity to try and help explore some different angles, where "ISFP or INFJ?" makes a refreshing change for discussion compared with the relatively commonplace "INFP or INFJ?" which almost invariably seems to come from tidy/neat INFPs or messy INFJs. Not that I know anything about MBTI either, but for what it's worth I think @Ksara has made some very helpful points for you already.

Let's say I'm INFJ: lots of Fe experience, and Fi is way down the chain as my "critical parent" (6th) function. One way in which that seems to occur to me, or one way in which I might say I experience that, is in terms of a general "fuzziness" or "blurriness" when trying to become aware of my internal Feeling experience compared to a kind of "clarity" or "sharpness" to how other people's Feeling experience comes over to me. My internal Feeling narrative is a kind of half-heard whisper compared to the virtual shouting of Feeling around me. 

For INFJ, not that anyone has yet elected me spokesperson for all INFJs, a common experience of Fe (as Auxiliary, 2nd, function) is of being well aware of how other people respond to us, and generally (compared to, say, INTPs) being able to take advantage of that in a positive way to react "appropriately" to different people in different contexts or situations. At least in part, you might want to think of it as a key part of the whole "social chameleon" label which INFJs often display or are associated with. You a "social chameleon" like that at all? Doesn't necessarily sound like it from your answers so far, but see what you think.

For ISFP, the auxiliary function is Se and Fe winds up down as Opposing, 5th, function. Whilst remaining wide open to the possibility of someone who feels secure and confident with ISFP shooting me down in flames, let me suggest that this might mean being more likely to avoid placing value on "sharing" Feeling experience - together with being more frequently critical of social values and shared Feeling experiences.

At the risk of caricaturing the experience, Fe as auxiliary (INFJ and ISFJ) might be something like "being aware of how the room feels". Again, at the risk of caricaturing perhaps Fe as opposing (ISFP and INFP) might be more like "who cares how the room feels?". Just so, having Fi as critical parent (still INFJ and ISFJ) could be modelled by the experience of feeling like other people should "get over themselves" in terms of sticking to their own values over the group's values (whilst also potentially being open to the 'nagging doubt' of whether or not we would be less hypocritical/insincere if we stuck to our own values a bit more). And to round things off, help me out if you find having Fi as dominant resonating at all with having a clear, firm, well-organised, and reliable awareness and understanding of your internal value system. Any good?

***

As an INFJ, my internal (ie: Xi) world is all N and T, with nary a flash of "introverted F-ing" in my normal conscious, ego-syntonic, experience. The difference for an ISFP would be that their internal, Xi, world would be all N and F, with "introverted t-ing" potentially seeming somewhere between incomprehensible and yeah-I-understand-it-but-only-a-complete-idiot-would-ever-want-to-use-it. As it happens, that would pretty much be what I think about Si (or at least it would if my best friend wasn't a classic ISTJ who has helpfully demonstrated that Si is really not as "bad" as my ego-conception thinks it is).

Again I may well be wrong on this, but it occurs to me that Fi looks at how other people are feeling working inside-->outside kinda 'reasoning by analogy', eg: "_well this is how it would feel for me, so that's what it feels like for them_". As I tried to outline before, in my experience of Fe how other people are feeling is basically screaming at me in bright psychedelic colours like I'm watching the completely mental bits of Yellow Submarine. For me, _I_ really have to work outside-->inside, reasoning by analogy in the other direction - eg: "_other people aren't responding to me like I'm some kind of monster, I guess that means I'm not some kind of monster_". That's a lazy example maybe, but try it out and see what you think.

"_My emotion sometimes get affected by others' too_"

Sure they do: you're not a monster either, right? But what I found interesting there is your description of the effect-you're-affected-by being a kind of "how the hell am I going to deal with this?" reply. Is that at all fair? When I see people in a bad mood I "know exactly" what to do (yeah, that's obviously an exaggeration - but you exaggerated first because I bet you know at least the "basics" of what to do). When I meet and interact with someone who is upset, say, I don't tend to "get awkward": I get upset [and then I pretty much go straight to trying to "fix" and improve their experience of being upset]. My conscious, ego-syntonic, experience is based on the "F input" coming from outside. If you'll bear with this next bit being a kind of wilfully anthropomorphised analogy, my ego goes "yo - what's the Feeling like?" and the shout comes back "it's upset, dude". That's then the experience of Feeling I am consciously aware of. Yes, also my internal narrative is apparently voiced by Keanu Reeves.



Let's try and be clear: if I meet a client and it comes up in conversation that they're discussing a bereavement, say, and that makes them upset then _my_ experience of "being upset" is somehow direct and immediate. It's _not_ that I'm [consciously] thinking something like "wow, I'm now thinking about how I would feel if _my_ mum died" - which of course I would find upsetting. But I don't have that experience: without there being any kind of conscious experience of trying to rely on "what would that feel like if it happened to me?" I just somehow pull up at the same station.

Let's try another reason-by-analogy and see if it helps you at all. Do you ever have a conscious experience of there somehow "not being much of a dividing line" between "you" and your Se experience? That it might be hard to say where "you" ends and Se "begins"? I'd like to say I experience that a lot with Se, but poor old inferior function for me is only really starting to get any kind of look-in as I get older and more "used to" being me. Well, my experience of Fe seems to offer a very porous and indistinct barrier between what is "my" feeling and what is "outside of me" feeling. This is really potentially a "classic Xe" experience, because insofar as I understand Te at all then it would entail experiencing a limited or porous barrier between "internal and external" Thinking. In Te terms we can all be happy that goes something like "it doesn't matter whether I believe water freezes [under earth surface pressure] at zero degrees Celsius: that's just a fact". Se might then be "it doesn't matter whether I believe I'm looking out at my [messy] desk and computer screen: that's just what is factually happening in my experience".

It's potentially jarring to try and do the same with Fe, but giving that a try would give us something like "it doesn't matter whether I believe that this person is upset, that is just factually what F-data I am experiencing". I've heard some people describe Fe as being "objective" in the same way that Te is "objective" compared to Ti's "subjective" logical system. Maybe this doesn't work for you, maybe I'm just flat out exaggerating what Xe functions have in common. Who knows? Just noodling.

***

If it helps, and if you haven't already come to the conclusion that I have little to no idea what I'm talking about, for what it's worth it strikes me that there seems to be much more Fi than Fe in terms of the answers you've offered here so far. I always wonder with these things: does being told by a stranger over the internet that you're Fi-over-Fe (and therefore, ex hypothesi of the o/p, ISFP more than INFJ) really help you out at all?

Thanks for your time, at any rate.


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## uncertain (May 26, 2012)

@*lawof23 *
Thanks for your reply! I haven't read the whole thing but I will finish that later.

So I always hear that Fe-user do something because he should, like Ksara says "Fe laughs because it is appropriate or doesn't want to offend." It sounds like no reaction by an Fe-user is random or natural and there's not a real point there. It goes like this: I see people laugh -->Should I laugh? Is it appropriate to laugh?-->It is appropriate to laugh-->Lol. There are always two steps in between. The strange thing is that something important is missing. There's not a "self" in it. He is asking the _world_ rather than himself whether he should laugh or not. There's a void in the middle of the process. If you are not asking those questions then you are directly reflecting people's emotion and not a self is there, either.

That's how I interpret it. Sometimes I do that as well, (and this is a thing that strongly makes me think I use Fe.) But it feels so weird and fake, and I am very conscious about this fakeness literally every second and "why do I do this," so I just don't know how people do this all the time without going insane, and others can usually tell when I am being fake like that. I guess I understand how Fe work, if I am being right, but since it feels strange to me I always wonder if there's anything else.

Why would you "ask the world" if you should laugh? Why don't you just laugh or not laugh? I don't always do random things either and many times I have inner steps as well, (not going into details or examples here.) It all goes down to this, "why do you or how can you 'pretend'/be "fake" or 'I-do-it-because-I-should' all the time?" Doesn't that ever exhaust you?

Is it _really_ how it works? Really...?

I guess I am just paranoid. I often get like this, asking questions when everything _seems_ to be clear already.

I hope it's not offensive. I believe my dad use Fe. A lot of time I think he is being fake but he says he is not.

EDIT: Another thing that makes me think I use Fe is that sometimes people would ask me, "do you want to go?" After a second or two, he/she would add, "You don't have to." So I am not sure if this is because I come off as a polite person who is just being nice, or because they are the one who uses Fe.

So this is something Fi: I like hearing music. I play it on my phone or my laptop, but when someone is physically approaching then I would immediately lower the volume not because I think it's impolite to bother them with noises but because I don't want them coming up to ask me what I am listening. Just now I thought no one's in the house so I feel completely free, and I played the music out loud. Then I realized that there was someone here. Then I was like, Oh shit.
It used to be that I also didn't want people to secretly laughed at me or gossiped about it, but now I just don't think about it anymore.

Oh and I feel bad about making people feel bad. Don't want to hurt people's feeling. It's that Fe or Fi, or both can be this way?


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

*^^; to understand Fi imo one has to read The Catcher in the Rye, a novel by J. D. Salinger.*

Holden Caulfield is firstly a goddamn Fi user (imo a really depressed ENFP) & usually when he thinks someone is a phony, he is perceiving Fe negatively. All you have to do is look at how he expresses his internal state without restrain regardless of what impact it has on the external.

Example: "You take somebody that cries their goddamn eyes out over phony stuff in the movies, and nine times out of ten they're mean bastards at heart. I'm not kidding."

Goddamn Fi users do't like fake weak goddamn Fe...at least I don't. Its a good sign to look for....goddamn it. XD



uncertain said:


> @*lawof23 *
> So this is something Fi: I like hearing music. I play it on my phone or my laptop, but when someone is physically approaching then I would immediately lower the volume not because I think it's impolite to bother them with noises but because I don't want them coming up to ask me what I am listening. Just now I thought no one's in the house so I feel completely free, and I played the music out loud. Then I realized that there was someone here. Then I was like, Oh shit.
> It used to be that I also didn't want people to secretly laughed at me or gossiped about it, but now I just don't think about it anymore.
> 
> Oh and I feel bad about making people feel bad. Don't want to hurt people's feeling. It's that Fe or Fi, or both can be this way?


That is actually *Fe*. You are concerned with the state of external objects, in this case people & what impact you have on them. Basically you are extroverting feeling aka Fe.

Most of what you seem to be interpreting as Fe is just the social instinct imo.

The difference between Fi & Fe is that Fe concerns itself with the external while Fi is all about the internal. A Fe user will concern itself with the emotional atmosphere, what everyone else is feeling, how the values interact, how group cohesion is, how they themselves affect everything on the outside.

A Fi user is more about what it feels, values & will often assert these in opposition with anything external that diverges, but mostly in the defense of itself. There is very little concern about imposing subjective values on the external. its more about how the external affects the Fi user internally & what the reaction is.

aka I may not really care what John feels, I mainly care what I feel about what John feels  if I were him & how my relationship with him is.

Fe would care about what John feels & about influencing it, as in maybe cheering him up, if he is down. As a Fi user I'm more likely going to come with a Te related practical solution rather then cheer him up by changing his emotional state by comforting him or idk.

Feelers should theoretically have strong Fi & Fe, just that depending on preference..we don't care much for one orientation. Its more like "meh" when it comes to Fe in my case. I do notice Fe related, but I may ignore it for a Fi preference most of the time.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

uncertain said:


> That's how I interpret it. Sometimes I do that as well, (and this is a thing that strongly makes me think I use Fe.) But it *feels so weird and fake*, and I am *very conscious about this fakeness* literally every second and "why do I do this," so I just don't know how people do this all the time without going insane, and others can usually tell when I am being fake like that. I guess I understand how Fe work, if I am being right, but since it feels strange to me I always wonder if there's anything else.
> 
> *Why would you "ask the world" if you should laugh? Why don't you just laugh or not laugh*? I don't always do random things either and many times I have inner steps as well, (not going into details or examples here.) It all goes down to this, *"why do you or how can you 'pretend'/be "fake" or 'I-do-it-because-I-should' all the time?"* Doesn't that ever exhaust you?
> 
> ...


I don't think I have ever come across a strong Fe user that felt they were being fake. I have come across Fi interpreting Fe doms as being fake (and on the flip side Fe doms thinking Fi doms are selfish)

To me I see this fakeness you feel when you do something to please others is perhaps your Fi telling you that you are not being authentic. An Fi Dom won't ask the world if it should laugh, an Fi Dom will laugh because they truly believe that it is worth laughing. 



Fe will ask the world if it is appropriate to laugh, and will laugh accordingly. An Fe Dom does not see it as being fake because to them it is important to be considerate of others. Fe wants to ensure the mood of the group is positive, the environment is welcoming, that everyone puts aside their differences to work together.

Fi puts the self first, in the sense if they are unable to look after themselves, how can they help anyone else? Fi wants to really mean what they say, they want to connect on a deeper level. Fi believes that everyone is unique and has the right to hold different values. Because of this it is wrong to put them aside for others (and does not expect others to put aside their values).

Fe will judge the behaviour and ethics of others more openly. Fi judges the self and will be very wary of ethical judgments it makes about others (as values are unique to them).


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## Satan Claus (Aug 6, 2013)

INFJ here! I agree with what the user said above, don't compare Fe with Fi but more Ni with Fi. 

Ni dominants are usually...

Ni doms are your visionaries, however unlike the Ne doms and aux's, we don't see five different ways to do something...more like one or two. We can come up with good ideas, but what I'm trying to get at is we usually can only come up with two or three possible outcomes at most when we have the right evidence at hand. We're future thinkers! We're naturally inclined to think about what will be. We also think in symbols and pictures. We can see what's going on "beneath the surface" quite easily and can read others emotions quite well. We ask questions like "What's really going on here?" or "When have I once felt this way before?" Ni senses (This is kind of where inferior Se comes in to play) that something is off. We may notice a persons voice, pause in voice, body language and think it's not the same as to how they naturally behave. Then we zero in on it and try to find out what is going on. We're also good at reading people and have one major goal we want to accomplish in the future. Rapunzel from Tangled, an ENFJ, wants to see the floating lights. She spends her whole life dreaming of the day she gets to see them and is super determined do it. No one can stop her or persuade her to do anything else. Once Ni makes it's decision, it sticks with it.

Ni supported by Fe:

Ni by itself is great at reading others, but when it's supported by Fe it's even better! INFJ's are great at reading body language and people. Within a few minutes, we can sometimes see what this person is like. We ask questions about people when we first meet them. "Who are you? How do you work? What's your favourite movie? Oh it's Jurassic Park? Why?" We also see two people in each person: The person they are in public and who they really are. INFJ's are also outwardly emotional. When we're happy, it's obvious. When we're sad, you'll know. 

ISFP's have tertiary Ni which is kind of like this:










Hans Solo (Is that Hans solo? I have no clue lol but I think it is) is an ISTP and they have tertiary Ni as well. 

The ISFP will use Ni after observing their surroundings using Se with their feels, Fi, to form their conclusions. 

ISFP's have Se as their auxiliary. What does this mean? They love doing stuff with their hands. This doesn't have to be just art, it can be anything. It also kind of has an emotional significance to it. My confirmed ISFP friend plays instruments and he does it to let out his emotions without actually talking about them. Speaking of their emotions...

Dominant Fi, in a nutshell, is the function that deals with the persons individual feelings and beliefs. It's about that persons morals and what they truly believe and feel. It's more in depth and complex. They keep it to themselves and usually, in a healthy way, put themselves before others. When an Fi dom loves you, they may not always show it through words but the feelings they have for you are deep. I would explain more but I'm not a dominant Fi user so I don't want to give you wrong information and this post will be way to long but check out this page: Introverted Feeling (Fi)

So Ni dom:










Fi dom:











And if you're still confused, watch this:






Hope I helped!!!


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

I... believe that I'm an Fe user. (possibly not healthy one, or possibly not one at all! please note). But here are my two cents regarding the difference between the two: 

(now, someone correct me if I'm spewing baloney and there is no correlation, please). 

When activated, it feels like a constant state of awareness of emotional states (definitely not my own, but definitely other people's). I can choose to not react to it, choose to do the opposite of what is expected of me, but the awareness is constantly there (especially other people's influence on it and my own influence). When I am with another individual I am constantly aware of how the way I'm speaking, presenting myself, etc is influencing their emotional state. When I sense someone is frustrated, angry, upset, I feel bombarded by it. There is no sort of step involving "trying to put myself in their shoes, how would I feel?" rather it feels like I'm living through it with them. Like their emotional state has become my emotional state, rather than my own emotional state filtering them as I hear out their perspective. 

And with this awareness I can't _not _note and consider (if not attempt to) influence in sorts (whether even in small ways to improve - if in a healthy state). I can purposely choose to act against what is expected. (ex: in situations where I want to hurt someone, bring them to a sort of emotional state where they'll be worse off (because I obviously feel offended and I still act on this)). But it's something I'm always scanning out for. It's something I'm _planning_ out for. I will plan out my approach and presentations sometimes weeks before something. Not something beyond my control, but it still feels very natural for me to flow with it and influence my way through it rather than against. To mediate the argument, to unite the group, to "fix up" rather than to separate from and focus... inward and towards the self with that sort of judgement. 

And of course I can still be very aware of my own feelings towards things, I know what sort of things I enjoy, what sort of things I don't enjoy. I don't fall into peer pressure because of it. I don't find myself to be a sheep in the crowd nor do I feel the need to conform towards all social standards. But it's like a type of flirter which is present. And it pushes me towards some sort of action, to "fix up the vibes in the area", to "control my actions in order to not soil the vibes in an area". 

But Fi friend is very different from this. I am without a doubt certain that she has a far steadier and deeper sense of self and me. And I think to a degree you can tell more when two heavy Fe users are interacting. This filter seems flipped for Fi users due to the heavy portion of it being on how X is personally rubbing off on them. It's first through self then out rather than the previous. 

She's complained to me about my approach lacking a sort of personal aspect. I occasionally get frustrated at hers for seeming so self-centered.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

@uncertain —

The official MBTI folks have a huge data bank going back many years that shows which types are the most likely to pursue various kinds of occupations and, contrary to popular belief — and I think Keirsey (who got a lot of things right, but not this) is the main culprit — ISFPs are actually _less_ likely than most of the types to be artists.

INFPs are probably the most likely artist types, and you can read quite a bit more about that in this post.

I'd be surprised if you're not an INF. Isn't that how you generally come out when you take dichotomy-based tests? (You can take the official "Step I" MBTI here if you never have. I'm guessing your I and N scores will both be clear.)

And if you're under the misimpression that cognitive function tests are worth paying any attention to, you can read about why that's a mistake in this post. And the fact that you're saying stuff like "I don't think Fe ever comes up with his own emotion" and "[an Fe type] is asking the _world_ rather than himself whether he should laugh or not" leads me to think you've probably been reading quite a lot of internet nonsense on "Fi" and "Fe."

Enneagram 5w4 is much more consistent with INFJ or INFP than ISFP, as you probably know (and somewhat more consistent with INFJ than INFP).

In the spoiler are roundups of online profiles for ISFPs and the four IN types, in case you find them helpful.


* *




_INTJ Profiles_
MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
Berens & Nardi
personalitypage: Portrait
personalitypage: Personal Growth
personalitypage: Relationships
personalitypage: Careers

_INTP Profiles_
MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
Berens & Nardi
personalitypage: Portrait
personalitypage: Personal Growth
personalitypage: Relationships
personalitypage: Careers

_INFJ Profiles_
MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
Berens & Nardi
personalitypage: Portrait
personalitypage: Personal Growth
personalitypage: Relationships
personalitypage: Careers

_INFP Profiles_
MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
Berens & Nardi
personalitypage: Portrait
personalitypage: Personal Growth
personalitypage: Relationships
personalitypage: Careers

_ISFP Profiles_
MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
Berens & Nardi
personalitypage: Portrait
personalitypage: Personal Growth
personalitypage: Relationships
personalitypage: Careers



If you're interested — and _only_ if you're interested — in quite a lot of input from me on J/P, see this post. And if you've let anybody bamboozle into thinking that INFJs and INFPs are waaaaaay different (_because functions_!) or that you can't possibly be an INFx (_because functions_!), you may want to look at this post.

And finally — and again, _only_ if you're interested: If you want a better take on the dichotomies-vs.-functions issue (and the relationship between the modern MBTI and Jung), you'll find it in this long INTJforum post.

Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for two of the links in that last post:

McCrae & Costa article (click on the pic on the right to access the full article)
Reynierse article​


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

@reckful
I find what you have to say interesting.
But I'd like to ask for clarification about you statement about ISFP less likely to be artists. I did look at the post linked and you were suggesting most of these more artistic occupations were filled by N types.

What distinguishes a fine artist and someone who likes to do artsy things? Is it a degree one gets at a university for them to have the title of a fine artist? If this is the case, how does this degree determine someone's artistic ability? What if people who aren't N's have the capability to pass this fine arts degree, but saw little practal value in acquiring such things?

Is this what you meant by distinguishing art from crafts? To me I don't think this is an easy distinction to be made. If I make something, or paint something is it art or is it a craft? Is it craft if it is a hobbie then? Must I have the title of a fine artist to have my work be considered art?




The second study talks about being peer nominated for creativity. So people nominated others they thought were creative to be a part of this study?
Who got to nominate these people? what fields were these nominations taken from?

If these were in highly technical fields, perhaps areas that required higher degrees and dealings with a lot of abstract systems, then yes I would expect there to be a lot more N's selected as there tend to be a lot of N's in these areas.

Also when was this study conducted?

If it's roughly 50 or more years ago then I would find it extremely rare to have any S's in this study at all If the nominations were selected from any field that required a degree. Why is this? Well because back then you did not need a degree to work, so it tended to be the intuitives or those who loved abstract theory went to university to further their education, those that had a more hands on preference finished up their schooling and went straight into the work force. (I did read this somewhere but I can't find this right now)

Also I'd like to add a sample size of only 107 people is very very small to compare it to the entire general population.
I think you mentioned something about other studies on this?




I guess my biggest question is why aren't there more S's in the creative fields? Why do they not want to work in that occupation? Is it that they aren't creative (as I think it is you are suggesting)? Or is it that they have little interest in working in these fields (for what ever reason) but they can be just as creative?



My intentions are not to be attacking you with this post, more a criticle look at the studies as I don't have all the information, but I presume you do. I'd appreciate the clarification thanks


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