# The Villification of the Beta Quadra in Disney



## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I guess. o:


If you want to see an SLI philosopher then you could take a look at Daniel Dennet. Not everyone fits the stereotypes, but Ni certainly isn't a strong suit in him. For example his Cartesian Theater. It is fully valid criticism, although he seems to automatically dismiss any sort of abstract 'self' in doing so -- simply because it cannot be found when looking for it in the brain. I'm still not entirely sure how it is that he perceives or explains that we do feel that there is an observer inside of us, but from what I've gathered he seems to regard it as some sort of illusion as he is a determinist. Such abstract concepts as 'self' isn't his cup of tea. He likes what is concrete. Si-Te to the max.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@Inguz
I see.


----------



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> I've also seen her typed as an INFP/EII. Such a controversial character, lol.





Nonsense said:


> TreasureTower said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


But if this YouTuber is right and both Belle and Jasmine (being heroines) are INFJs; wouldn't that then disprove the OP?


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

TreasureTower said:


> But if this YouTuber is right and both Belle and Jasmine (being heroines) are INFJs; wouldn't that then disprove the OP?


Indeed it would, I'm just not sure if I see it. I don't know what I would type Jasmine as, though. Haven't watched Aladdin in forever. Hmm she's clever, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's an intuitive.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I guess. o:


He swims in money, literally. Scrooge McDuck is no straight laced miser who cares merely about the bottom line or comfort and security. I think he's an ENTj stereotype, but INTp which is Ni Te is the next best thing, I suppose. He's not health and physical upkeep, he's money and power without the sex.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

fourtines said:


> He swims in money, literally. Scrooge McDuck is no straight laced miser who cares merely about the bottom line or comfort and security. I think he's an ENTj stereotype, but INTp which is Ni Te is the next best thing, I suppose. He's not health and physical upkeep, he's money and power *without the sex*.


Thank goodness for that. 

And yeah, I didn't think about that. Guess it's a little early in the day for me. =P


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

TreasureTower said:


> But if this YouTuber is right and both Belle and Jasmine (being heroines) are INFJs; wouldn't that then disprove the OP?


Why are we assuming she is an expert? I mean Tiana is obviously Te not Fe, wtf ISFJ....I don't have an opinion on Jasmine, I am pretty annoyed with every newer Disney formulaic corporate vehicle except for Beauty and the Beast and The Princess and the Frog.


----------



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> *Indeed it would*, I'm just not sure if I see it. I don't know what I would type Jasmine as, though. Haven't watched Aladdin in forever. Hmm she's clever, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's an intuitive.


So, if two heroines are Betas; than that would trump all of the Beta-identified villians in relevance; since Beta heroines would than argue against a "Beta vilification" presupposition, regardless of the number of villians?


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

TreasureTower said:


> So, if two heroines are Betas; then that would trump all of the Beta-identified villians in relevance; since Beta heroines would than argue against a "Beta vilification" presupposition, regardless of the number of villians?


I think my point also stands that early Disney classics did not exclusively have Beta villians.

However a trend toward Beta or EIE villians could be part of that "new Disney" formula of which I speak.

Even if Belle and Jasmine are Beta, it doesn't disprove a trend for the villain.

Personally I think Belle is Delta.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Beta villains are everywhere likely because they simply fit the idea of a villain well. We also occasionally see LIE ones such as Light from Death Note. Se provides with drama because it adds a sense of competition and a strive for power, two traits villains need. Can you imagine an alpha villain? No one would take them seriously. 

And Belle is clearly an EII. Most of her life at the Beast's castle clearly fulfills her Si HA with comfort, good food etc. And I agree with that Scrooge is an SLI, not ILI. The point of the story is that Scrooge is incapable of seeing what else something could be. Just because he's rich it doesn't make him gamma by default. The fact that he doesn't like to actually utilize his affluence speaks against Se. Se types would be more show-off. If you want to point out a gamma anti-hero who is more likely ILI I would look at the Grinch.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> And I agree with that Scrooge is an SLI, not ILI. The point of the story is that Scrooge is incapable of seeing what else something could be. Just because he's rich it doesn't make him gamma by default. The fact that he doesn't like to actually utilize his affluence speaks against Se. Se types would be more show-off. If you want to point out a gamma anti-hero who is more likely ILI I would look at the Grinch.


The one in Christmas Carol, right? Although Scrooge McDuck is based on that character.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> The one in Christmas Carol, right? Although Scrooge McDuck is based on that character.


Yes. His character doesn't change much across the different retellings of the story. And I'm not sure I see Donald Duck as SEE. He's likely more SLE to me. A lot of his conflicts with Chip and Dale stem from the fact that Donald seems to think some people are more entitled. For a quick comparison Donald is quite similar to Gordon Ramsey and for cross-comparison there's Mugen from Samurai Champloo that is an actual SEE and we see how they are different. 

If you were to say that Asuka and subsequently the majority of all tsundere that came after are SEE, that I would agree with more. Donald is often portrayed as seeking community but denying himself that fits Fe HA better.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Yes. His character doesn't change much across the different retellings of the story. And I'm not sure I see Donald Duck as SEE. He's likely more SLE to me. A lot of his conflicts with Chip and Dale stem from the fact that Donald seems to think some people are more entitled. For a quick comparison Donald is quite similar to Gordon Ramsey and for cross-comparison there's Mugen from Samurai Champloo that is an actual SEE and we see how they are different.


Yeah. I was thinking mostly about Scrooge McDuck since I've never actually seen the original Christmas Carol (though of course I know how it goes). Although Scrooge McDuck still seems SLI to me, but I can see where @_Inguz_ and @_fourtines_ is coming from. 

I could see SLE for Donald too. He doesn't seem that Fi to me, and I never got the impression that him and Scrooge liked each other that much, so I don't see them as duals. Sure, they care about each other to some degree, but you don't have to be duals to do that. For the most part they seem to clash.

So SEE is the "tsundere" type, eh? =P (Well, not the only one, but...)


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Nonsense said:


> Yeah. I was thinking mostly about Scrooge McDuck since I've never actually seen the original Christmas Carol (though of course I know how it goes). Although Scrooge McDuck still seems SLI to me, but I can see where @_Inguz_ and @_fourtines_ is coming from.
> 
> I could see SLE for Donald too. He doesn't seem that Fi to me, and I never got the impression that him and Scrooge liked each other that much, so I don't see them as duals. Sure, they care about each other to some degree, but you don't have to be duals to do that. For the most part they seem to clash.
> 
> So SEE is the "tsundere" type, eh? =P (Well, not the only one, but...)


Uncle Scrooge was also in Duck Tales and.in the Donald Duck comics. That's where I get the image of him swimming in money from.

I always liked the ducks better than the mice in Disney...I could see Donald as SEE ...or SLE.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Uncle Scrooge was also in Duck Tales and.in the Donald Duck comics. That's where I get the image of him swimming in money from.
> 
> I always liked the ducks better than the mice in Disney...I could see Donald as SEE ...or SLE.


Lol! Him swimming in money does seem like it wouldn't be very comfortable, but then it's not very realistic anyway. Jumping into a pool filled with hard cash would likely kill someone upon impact, so... 

But yeah, the ducks were generally more entertaining, although I did enjoy the Mickey Mouse stories. The Phantom Blot was pretty sexy too (just kidding).


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Nonsense said:


> Lol! Him swimming in money does seem like it wouldn't be very comfortable, but then it's not very realistic anyway. Jumping into a pool filled with hard cash would likely kill someone upon impact, so...
> 
> But yeah, the ducks were generally more entertaining, although I did enjoy the Mickey Mouse stories. The Phantom Blot was pretty sexy too (just kidding).


I always loved Donald and his family. The mice were too nicey nice.

I had the Donald comics and the one time I went to Disney world I got a DD hat. 

I am a fan. I am pretty sure I related to him some how.

P.S. I am definitely tsundere.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

fourtines said:


> I always loved Donald and his family. The mice were too nicey nice.
> 
> I had the Donald comics and the one time I went to Disney world I got a DD hat.
> 
> ...


I always used to buy the DD comics when I was a kid, though at some point I got a little tired of them. I still buy the pocket books sometimes, though. 

I kinda liked Mickey Mouse too because I liked the mysteries and such. Not that they were that intricate, but they sure kept my young mind engaged. =P

And I'm not surprised to hear that you're a tsundere. :tongue:


----------



## woollysocks (Dec 18, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> Walt Disney's type was IEE so that would explain the negative depictions of Beta. Also the witch from "The Little Mermaid" is EIE, while almost all of Disney princesses are IEE.


I've seen many argue ESE for Disney alongside IEE. I have noticed that this overt Beta vs Delta theme did not exist in the earliest works where things were considerably more Alpha. Actually, I'd like to have another look at Walt and see if I can type him.



cyamitide said:


> United States is a very Gamma/Delta culture overall, spawned by Britain which is Delta in its values. Little wonder that Betas are vilified.


Apparently the USA in general has been typed LIE. This still doesn't explain why Si and Ne are such strong themes in Disney. I think Mulan might have a Gamma protagonist and deuteragonist (Mulan ESI and Shang LIE). The UK was typed LSE.



cyamitide said:


> I thought the antagonist in Hunchback of Notre-Dame was EII. He begins the songs with how he's a "virtuous and righteous" man for whom morality assumes the highest value -- Fi-INFj type 1 if I had to type him.


"You know I am a righteous man
Of my virtue I am justly proud
(Et tibit Pater (And to you, Father))
Beata Maria
You know I'm so much purer than
The common, vulgar, weak, licentious crowd
(Quia peccavi nimis (That I have sinned))
Then tell me, Maria
Why I see her dancing there
Why her smold'ring eyes still scorch my soul
(Cogitatione (In thought))
I feel her, I see her
The sun caught in her raven hair
Is blazing in me out of all control
(Verbo et opere (In word and deed))"

Nah, he approaches it very much in a Ti-centric way... Rather than acting out of personal feelings and good sentiments, he is instead sticking to religious rules and regulations. If he sticks to his standards of religious perfection, he can be 'justly' proud because he has satisfied the parameters by which he is entitled to be proud. The man is a judge who upholds the law in a narrow, iron fisted manner, persecuting gypsies who he sees as a corruption to the society. There is also the sense that this adherence to religious rules puts him in a higher position than the 'weak, licentious crowd', showing a sense of power dynamics and hierarchy in his thinking. His approach is very absolutist, to eradicate what he deems as imperfections. As you can see from the theme of the song, he doesn't trust his feelings and feels them leading him astray from a very Introverted Logical path to salvation.


----------



## woollysocks (Dec 18, 2013)

TreasureTower said:


> What about _Beauty and the Beast's _*Belle* - IEI?



EII... she's all about doing what she feels is right and its her formation of a meaningful relationship with the Beast that is his salvation. The IEI in the story would be LeFou


----------



## woollysocks (Dec 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Hrmmm...ah..
> 
> Is this mainly newer Disney films?
> 
> Because there's Maleficent, Cruella DeVille, Ugly Stepsisters as well as Wicked Stepmother, and the "villain" in Mary Poppins is actually the father who changed at the end, in MBTI I would call him an ISTJ, idk what in Socionics.


I'm not sure about Maleficent and the Ugly Stepsisters but Cruella DeVille would be another EIE. 

Oldies like Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty don't seem so overtly Delta vs. Beta.

The Wicked Stepmother could even be SEE.


----------

