# Sticky  Abuse: Warning Signs and Types



## pinkrasputin

There have been a few threads on abusive intimate relations. I thought I'd post some warning signs and definitions. Domestic Abuse is not solely confined to one sex over the other. Domestic violence is abuse between intimate partners, where one partner is using different types of abuse (ie, emotional, physical,) to gain power and control over his or her partner. 

*Warning Signs*
Below is a list of behaviors that are seen in abusive intimate partners. The more signs the person has, the more likely the person has a battering personality and a potential for relationship violence. Initially batterers excuse abusive behavior as signs of love and concern (which can very be flattering), however, as the relationship progresses these abusive behaviors become more controlling, abusive and violent. 

1.	Jealousy: At the beginning of a relationship, an abuser will say that jealousy is a sign of love. Jealousy has nothing to do with love. It's a sign of insecurity and possessiveness. 
Signs: Questions who their partner talks to. Accusations of flirting. Complains of how much time is spent with others. Frequent phone calls throughout the day. Unexpected visits. Unpredictable behavior. Checking car mileage. Asking friends to watch or "spy" on their partner. Falsely accuses partner is cheating on them.

2.	Controlling Behavior: At the onset of the relationship, the abuser will say that this behavior is because of concern for their partner's safety, or to guide them in good decision-making and time management.
Signs: Closely questions everything their partner does. Will not allow the partner to make personal decisions about the house, clothing and/or going to church. Anger if the partner is "late" coming back from the store or an appointment. May keep all the money and/or make the partner ask permission to leave the house or room. Will tell their partner what do, what to wear, what to say, etc.

3.	Fast Moving Relationships: Many domestic violence survivors dated or knew their abuser for less than six months before they were engaged or started living together. 
Signs: Relationship starts like a whirlwind, "love at first sight". Excessive flattery such as "you're the only person I can talk to" and "I love you more than anyone in the world". Abusive partner may state they need someone desperately. Pressure for commitment.

4.	Unrealistic Expectations: Abusive partners are dependent on relationships for all of their needs; this is not healthy. No relationship is perfect and no one person can realistically be there "all the time."
Signs: Expects partner to be a perfect partner/spouse, parent, lover, and friend. May say things like "if you love me, I'm all you need, you're all I need." Expects partner to take care of everything emotionally for them. Expects their partner to perform all household tasks.

5.	Isolation: The abuser tries to cut-off resources in effort to remove opportunities for escape and systems of support. Without supportive friends with which to "trouble talk" about relationships, it can be hard to recognize signs of abuse. Resources include work or school, transportation, family and friends. 
Signs: Friends are not allowed by the abuser; these relationships are viewed as unfaithful. Friendships are ridiculed or sabotaged. Accuses supportive friends to be "causing trouble." Will not allow visits to or from partner's family. Moves away from partner's family and friends. Taking away the phone or the car. Insists their partner stop going to work or to school.

6.	Blames Others for Problems: Abusers do not take responsibility for any negative situation; instead they will find someone else or some external factor to blame for the problem. 
Signs: Mistakes are the fault the partner. Irresponsibility. Chronic unemployment. Says, "Someone is always doing me wrong" or "out to get me". Says their partner upsets them or keeps them from concentrating. Abuser blames their partner for practically anything and everything that goes wrong.

7.	Blames Other for Feelings: Abusers often do not understand or want to feel any negative emotions. When an abuser feels hurt, anger, or fear, they will want to find someone to blame to make the feeling go away. 
Signs: Says "you make me mad", "you're hurting me by not doing what I ask", and "I can't help being angry." Uses feelings to manipulate their partner.

8.	Hypersensitivity: Abusers can be extra sensitive and may explode when they suspect an attack. 
Signs: Easily insulted. Claims feeling "hurt" when really feels anger. Takes the slightest set back as personal attacks. Will "rant and rave" about the injustice of things that have happened, things that are really just part of living like being asked to help with chores.

9.	Cruelty to Animals or Children: Someone who punishes children and or animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain or suffering. This is a red flag warning and a message that they could hurt people too. 
Signs: Expects children to be capable of doing things far beyond their ability (whips a two year old for wetting their diaper). Hurts or abuses animals. Teases children until they cry. Hurts or kills their partner's pets. Does want children to eat at the table or expects them to stay in their room all evening away from adults. 60 % of abusers, who beat their female partner, will also beat their children.

10.	"Playful" use of Force in Sex: Media has displayed forceful sex as "sexy," however, it shows unhealthy desire for power and control over one's partner. Sex is about intimacy and mutual consent. It is against the law to force someone into any sexual act.
Signs: Likes to throw down or restrain partner during sex. Wants to act out sexual fantasies where the partner is helpless. Ideas of "rape" excite them. Not concerned whether their partner wants to have sex or not. Sulks or uses anger to manipulate partner into having sex. Starts having sex with partner while partner is sleeping. Demands sex when partner is ill or tired.

11.	Verbal Abuse: Abuse is not only physical. Abusers will often criticize and demean their partners. 
Signs: Says cruel and hurtful things. Constantly degrades their partner. Curses. Belittles accomplishments. Says their partner is stupid and incapable of functioning without them. Very critical about everything.

12.	Rigid Gender Roles: Abusers will use gender roles to restrict and control their partners. 
Signs: Abusers see the opposite sex as inferior to them, less intelligent, and unable to be a whole person without them. For example, some abusers expect their partners to serve and obey them in all things, even things that are criminal in nature. Abusers may restrict their partners from working or going to school.

13.	Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde: This is a reference to a fictional character that had both a "good" and "evil" side. 
Signs: Sudden changes in mood, a "roller coaster of emotions." Explosiveness. One-minute the abuser is nice and the next minute there is an explosion.

14.	Past Battering: If someone has a history of violent relationships, they are likely to abuse again (unless the abuser seeks intervention). Situational circumstances do not make a person have an abusive personality. 
Signs: Many abusers have hit partners in the past. Abusers reason that past abuse was because "my partner made me do it." Relatives or ex-partners may admit past abuse.

15.	Threats of Violence: Threats are meant to control and manipulate. Threats can also be illegal. 
Signs: Threatens, "I'll slap your mouth off", "I'll kill you", or "I'll break your neck". Excuses threats saying, "everybody talks like that."

16.	Breaking or Striking Objects: Used as a punishment, to terrorize and threaten the partner into submission. 
Signs: Beats on tables with fists. Throws objects near their partner. Breaks partner's special possessions.

17.	Force during an Argument: Arguments and discussions are a natural part of all relationships, but force or restraint changes an ordinary argument into possible abuse
Signs: Holding a partner down. Physically restraining partner from leaving the room and saying "you're going to listen to me". Pushing or shoving. Cornering partner against a wall.[/quote]



*Types of Abuse*


> Physical Abuse is the use of physical force against another person in a way that ends up injuring the person, or puts the person at risk of being injured.
> 
> Does your partner push, hit or choke you?
> Does your partner threaten to hurt you with a weapon?
> Emotional Abuse can be verbal or nonverbal.
> 
> Does your partner continually criticize you, call you names?
> Does your partner make all decisions for you?
> Financial Abuse may include withholding resources, stealing from the victim, or using the victims name to incur debt.
> 
> Does your partner force you to work, or refuse to let you work?
> Do you feel financially dependent on your partner?
> Sexual Abuse is often linked to physical abuse; they may occur together, or the sexual abuse may occur after a bout of physical abuse
> 
> Does your partner minimize the importance of your feelings about sex?
> Does your partner force particular unwanted sex acts?
> Spiritual Abuse is anything that comes in the way of you doing something or feeling good about yourself.
> 
> Does your partner not allow you to practice your morals/religious beliefs or culture/values?
> Do you feel that you have given up things that are important you?


Whether a couple is same-sex or opposite-sex, many dynamics of abuse are the same. An abusive relationship is fueled by the desire of the abuser to have control over his or her partner. The abuser uses different types of abuse, including: physical, sexual, emotional, financial, and spiritual.


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## Blue Butterfly

This thread deserves a thank you award! I hate abusers. And I hate to hate.


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## Lady K

So, what does it mean when I request my partner to "playfully" force me to have sex with him?


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## pinkrasputin

Lady K said:


> So, what does it mean when I request my partner to "playfully" force me to have sex with him?


 I do not know. That is something for you to answer not me.


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## Lady K

My question wasn't actually serious. The point that I failed to make is that you can't assume that someone is abusive from the criteria that you've listed. Yes, most of it is a good indicator, but it's also a generalization. A person can be commanding and controlling without being abusive. It's the extent to which they allow it to take over their life that is the true indicator of whether or not they will be abusive. 

I had a guestspeaker in one of my classes this past semester and she talked to us about the vast differences in latino culture in terms of domination between a man and a woman. Often, social workers will interpret a female who appears downcast and shy around her husband as a woman who is being beaten, particularly if she doesn't speak or voice her opinion. However, this is not always the case. It is a part of the culture (for some) for a man to be outwardly dominant and controlling. In fact latinas are often offended by the concern that their relationship is abusive simply because they let their husband order their food for them, or some other such nonsense. As the speaker herself said - "why should I bother ordering and waste my breath talking when he can do it for me? He's already talking to the waiter anyways!" If there isn't a problem within the relationship, and neither parties mind the dominance dynamics, it's not abusive. That's all I'm trying to say. Labeling people as unhealthy because of the way they prefer their lives is uncool in my opinion.


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## Geodude

Lady K said:


> My question wasn't actually serious. The point that I failed to make is that you can't assume that someone is abusive from the criteria that you've listed. Yes, most of it is a good indicator, but it's also a generalization. A person can be commanding and controlling without being abusive. It's the extent to which they allow it to take over their life that is the true indicator of whether or not they will be abusive.
> 
> I had a guestspeaker in one of my classes this past semester and she talked to us about the vast differences in latino culture in terms of domination between a man and a woman. Often, social workers will interpret a female who appears downcast and shy around her husband as a woman who is being beaten, particularly if she doesn't speak or voice her opinion. However, this is not always the case. It is a part of the culture (for some) for a man to be outwardly dominant and controlling. In fact latinas are often offended by the concern that their relationship is abusive simply because they let their husband order their food for them, or some other such nonsense. As the speaker herself said - "why should I bother ordering and waste my breath talking when he can do it for me? He's already talking to the waiter anyways!" If there isn't a problem within the relationship, and neither parties mind the dominance dynamics, it's not abusive. That's all I'm trying to say. Labeling people as unhealthy because of the way they prefer their lives is uncool in my opinion.


Right, though I think that you are missing the point. I am pretty certain this isn't supposed to be a "if a person meets any or all of these criteria then they *must* be an abuser". It is a list of warning signs. *Of course* context is important, but nonetheless for a lot of people, having signs to look for can be absolutely invaluable. Yes it's not a coverall, but something like this could really help people.


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## Lady K

I did not miss the point - I know these are good indicators, and I know that they work. I've done quite a bit of studies on domestic abuse and the perpetuation of violence, and am a victim of abuse myself. The only thing I wanted to say is that you have to have an open mind and not accuse every person who _seems_ to be a certain way, or _seems_ to fit these criteria as an abuser. It is just as important to protect the innocent as it is to protect the abused. I'm not disagreeing with the list or anything like that, merely pointing out something that I feel is important to keep in mind.


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## Antithesis

I found this study about the causes of domestic violence very interesting: Prone to Violence


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## Jinxies

Thank you, Pink. As an emotionally and psychologically abused woman... I appreciate you sharing these tips and encourage anyone who is the least bit concerned about the health of their relationship to read these words.


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## Jinxies

Lady K said:


> So, what does it mean when I request my partner to "playfully" force me to have sex with him?


 
Ultimately, it is up to you. If you have relations with your partner that you both find exciting, positive and pleasant, then it's not really an unhealthy environment. Unless, of course, you both like drugs or drinking to excess, etc. 

If you have a sexual fantasy that you need and your partner not only agrees to it, but also enjoys it. In my opinion, I would not consider it abuse. Now, if you were beaten and tied up and you were afraid, you were in pain, you didn't ask for it, you didn't want it... and it's breaking your spirit... that is abuse.


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## fairydust

thanks Pink for posting this thread.. abusers are powerful illlusionists who use "smoke and mirrors" to cause confusion and leave their partners wondering if _they_ are the crazy ones... there is a wonderful book by Lundy Bancroft Why does He do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men that is worth reading, especially if you feel "battered and bruised" by your partner yet wonder if it's your fault. the victim is never to blame... the abuser is to blame...

and yes i know that not all abusers are men.. so there is no need to post a comment saying so...


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## Lady K

Jinxies said:


> Ultimately, it is up to you. If you have relations with your partner that you both find exciting, positive and pleasant, then it's not really an unhealthy environment. Unless, of course, you both like drugs or drinking to excess, etc.
> 
> If you have a sexual fantasy that you need and your partner not only agrees to it, but also enjoys it. In my opinion, I would not consider it abuse. Now, if you were beaten and tied up and you were afraid, you were in pain, you didn't ask for it, you didn't want it... and it's breaking your spirit... that is abuse.


 

Thank you for your insight and concern - though as I pointed out in a later post, my question wasn't serious. I'm more than comfortable with my sexuality and all the rest.


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## thewindlistens

I agree with the concerns Lady K brought forward completely. I'd have said something myself but I didn't have the will...


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## Sweetish

Thank you, again, p.r.

I've recently found ~ isurvive.org - A Non-Profit Organization for Abuse Survivors Learning to Thrive ~ :: Index. It's an online chat forum support system for survivors of all types of abuse. It also has a sub-forum for the "loved ones" of survivors, who are sometimes referred to as "secondary survivors" due to the repercussions of the emotional harm which is inevitably brought to the loved one in the relationship by the initial abuse, though the loved one is not always also an abuse survivor.

I can't dismiss the consciousness I've gained of the effects that past abuse have had upon me as a "loved one" not only as someone who has been in an intimate relationship with a survivor of abuse but also, first, as a daughter of a woman who was verbally abused by her father and as a sister to siblings who are survivors but who have learned to thrive, despite it. There are also abuses which have happened to me that make me a survivor- though I don't like to say that, I must face it. I am beginning to understand triggers. I have begun to accept that being a healthy person for myself is the best thing I can do as a "loved one" and so I must not ever fall into the mentality of being a victim, must express my emotions in healthy ways which don't trigger a survivor and also recognize how I must do my part to break the cycle to not become an abuser through ignorance, neglect and/or selfish impulses.

Knowing all the things which I have done wrong (and also things which I have not done wrong and must not hold myself to blame for), and am responsible to be accountable for having done in order to correct my own behavior, I can read what you have shared knowing that there are harmful behaviors in that list which I have consciously not done, which has allowed me a sense of great relief. I know I still have emotional efforts to make, lifestyle as well as educational and career and therapy outlets to pursue as actions -not just words of intentions- and pivotal attitudes to adjust. I am still young and fortunate to be able to positively move forward with so much knowledge at this point in my life, knowledge of things which have caused me so much pain but now have an explanation and solutions in my control to undertake and enact.

I know I have pushed some boundaries in times when I felt I needed to talk with someone but instead of seeking a confidential, information-protective resource I went to my family who I had no right to divulge certain private information to. It is very challenging to maintain trust in such situations, trust often being the aspect of any relationship with a survivor that requires the most effort to establish or recover, then to sustain with full confidence. Whoever broke the bond of trust first is not a reason to continue to injure that trust. Broken trust requires a lot of emotional work and actions taken to repair it in order to be able to experience intimacy as a safe freedom, not as a trigger or as a threat. It is very difficult for a survivor to be vulnerable. It is very dangerous for a survivor of abuse to be placed into a situation with someone who would take advantage of vulnerability to again exploit the person. The psychology of feeling compelled to stay in an abusive environment is not something easily broken free of, as co-dependency has likely taken hold as though the people involved are held in a vice grip or shackles. Self-esteem is incredibly wounded and the situation very complicated, but that is no reason for anyone to stand idly by or pick sides or refuse to believe a survivor when they are able to ask for help. Abuse is a very serious problem that hurts everyone, affecting the community of humanity like a contagious disease that must be diagnosed and treated for the infection to stop spreading and the healing to take its place.

A person who is affected by such circumstances needs a safe haven, but they might feel they don't have a courageous voice with which to seek help- often, the trauma has created a confusion for the victim, especially for the victim who is a defenseless child.

The cycle must be broken. I applaud any and every person who has taken interest to become more knowledgeable about the subject of abuse, its warning signs and about how to seek help, offer help, pursue the proper route for intervention and/or to alert law enforcement authorities to stop abuse in any form, to protect the abused from further harm done and also to provide help and reform for both the abused and the abusers.


As Dean Koontz wrote in his sci-fi / thriller / romance novel "Watchers", which affected me very strongly even as a young child reading it, "We have a responsibility to stand watch over one another, we are watchers, all of us, watchers, guarding against the darkness." I again, as a child, was affected profoundly when reading his sci-fi / thriller novel, "Lightning" in which there are young fictional characters who fall prey to an abuser. There are wrongs which we cannot go back to right, pains which may take a lifetime to recover from, but there are wrongs that we can stop in the present and work to make right to prevent future wrongs from happening needlessly. We should all be aware, be watchful, take responsibility, thrive, and help others to thrive, also. Each of us can do _something_. Each of us are capable of breaking the cycle.

*hugs*


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## scarygirl

I think Lady K is making a good, good point.
I think sex ain't that easy thing they try to paint us. Of course there a few things that we should not break, but it ain't easy. By the way, many of the things you describe seem more likely of a troubled person than any other thing. Are you sure those people deserve to be bad treated, girl?

I think Lady K has a lot of good points, like the difference of criteria into relationships and how nothing is truely bad as long as it's consented.
I love latina women. Personally, I'm in a relationship, and I love pleasing the person I'm with, which doesn't mean I'm not strong willed, because when things are serious I speak it loud. But, is there any problem?
Go, those latinas, go


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## CallSignOWL

dang. I counted the ones where My step-dad would fall under. I had 2 (control), 3 (fast relationship), 6 (blames others), kinda had 7 (blames other for feelings), 8 (hypersensitivity), and can see how 9 (cruelty towards children) could be applied, 11 (verbal abuse), 13 (Dr.Jekyll/Hyde),15 (threats of violence), and 17 (force during arguments).

These were not all done to one person however. Its a mix between my Mom (3,6,7,8) , me (2, 6, 7,8,9,11,13) and my brother (2,6,7,8,9,11,13,15,17). He never actually hit any of us, but it was getting to the point where he was threatening my brother so my mom said ENOUGH! She has recently made an offer on a new house and is excitedly awaiting a response.

OWL


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## pinkrasputin

scarygirl said:


> I think Lady K is making a good, good point.
> I think sex ain't that easy thing they try to paint us. Of course there a few things that we should not break, but it ain't easy. By the way, many of the things you describe seem more likely of a troubled person than any other thing. Are you sure those people deserve to be bad treated, girl?
> 
> I think Lady K has a lot of good points, like the difference of criteria into relationships and how nothing is truely bad as long as it's consented.
> I love latina women. Personally, I'm in a relationship, and I love pleasing the person I'm with, which doesn't mean I'm not strong willed, because when things are serious I speak it loud. But, is there any problem?
> Go, those latinas, go


That's great that you love Latina women. However, are you aware that we are all different? I would stay away from generalizations because it's really difficult for me to understand what you are referring to. Btw, there are quite a few Latinas who are abused. Domestic violence is rampant in the hispanic culture. That would be dangerous to diminish this reality. 

My post, as is stating in the beginning, is to help individuals recognize characteristics that may have the *potential* to turn into violence in the relationship. This is not about "labels" or social standards. This is about education, awareness, and _self protection_. This is also about recognizing unhealthy traits in yourself, whether you are female or male.


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## Mutatio NOmenis

I had no idea just how abusive my brother is to me. Here's the list:

Controlling Behavior: I have to ask his permission to do just about anything. This includes getting through doors if he is on the other side. If he wants to do something I'm on, I have to surrender it in teh next 2 mintues if he's being generous, otherwise I'll be beaten and hijacked, he comes in to my room at random and check my computer history and C drive for any sign I've been foruming, troping, looking at anything at all sexual, or just spending too much time on the internet. His attacks now are mostly to do with wanting to be powerful and needing to exert control over others. He's temporarily stolen my computer many times, implemented blocks on it that prevented me from using the internet on it, and he also demands to look at my lower area to make sure that I haven't been jacking off.

Unrealistic Expectations: I have to be nice to him and treaty him "decently". I can't ever be pissed off. If I am, I can't show it. I must always be happy to see him. I have to be able to play games at his level. I always have to take second place, unless he's feeling nasty, then he'll make me be point and say that I should be point but I'm too lazy to do it. I can't lie either. I do, almost pathologically, but if I don't I'd be constantly attacked, beaten, and subjugated. I can't be sexual; I can't look at porn, despite the fact that not only does he look at porn, he downloads it by the gigabyte. I also have to constantly be fully clothed. However, he can march around naked and shove his dick by my face. If I do so much as appear without a shirt on, I get beaten.

Isolation: He's tried to take me away from my best friend because the guy doesn't roll over to be his bitch. He tries to keep me from getting a girlfriend and tells me often that I'm never going to get a girl because I'm ugly, stupid, and weak.

Blames Others for Problems: He says that I never give him the support he demands in a game. If I die, it doesn't matter. If he gets killed once, we have to start from the last checkpoint. If he loses his weapon, we have to go on a hunt for it. If it's lost, we have to restart. He says that because I didn't help him enough he got killed. My satisfaction doesn't matter. I have to lie about feeling anything but utter loathing for him or face game bans, which my parents claim he can't do, but he does anyway because he could beat me to death easily.

Blames Other for Feelings: He says "I don't want to beat you up but you piss me off." He claims that I treat him like shit and the last time the family made him the but of a joke about him being irrational and getting pissed off easily, he ran up to him room to cry, claiming that we all treat him like shit.

Cruelty to Animals: He isn't mean to kids, but he is mean to a certain cat we have. He chases the cat around the house, forcing him to hide under the deck, and if he doesn catch him, withholds foods, water, and keeps him held for hours on end. However, he thinks the dog is a saint, unless the dog isn't perfect enough, in which case he alpha rolls for things like the dog not hearing a command or being a little too slow on the uptake.

"Playful" use of Force: I get jump scares from him all the time. He will hit me hard and say that he was just playing with me despite me having a bigass bruise on my shoulder. I have almost been sent tumbling down the stairs several times due to shit like this and we're both 17. I keep an AK-103 Assault Rifle in my room loaded with Jacketed Hollow-Point Ammunition and I have a bayonet for it in case if he goes too far.

Verbal Abuse: I get called "peice of shit" all the time. I get told I'm fat, ugly, lazy, and stupid. If I like anything, he derrides it. If I go after him, I get beaten up. There's too much for me to go into specifics, so look for what I'm telling you in the other parts.

Rigid Roles: I'm always secondary; I don't matter except as an absolute last resort. He claims that he wants me to take point, but whenever I do, he forces me off to the side. If I ever try to stand up for myself, I get beaten and potentially forced off of gaming for the entire day for "treating me like shit."

Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde: He's either being really nice to me, or treating me like dirt. He always uses his actions while he's being "nice" to force me to do whatever he says by claiming "you're being a selfish dick." It's worst in the mornings where he practically goes trying to pick fights. He treats me like absolute shit, but 45 minute later, he's justifying himself casually as if he had done nothing more than forgotten to put cream in his coffee and was lamenting ordering the wrong cappuccino at Starbucks.

Past Battering: I've been getting beaten for so long that I can't even remember how old I was when I was first hit. It's been going on for almost 10 years and he's gotten more vicious and laconic over the years. I don't get hit as much, but he's more likely to administer a beatdown to exert control than to let out his annoyance. His attacks are a combination of both, but he's become more a control freak and the violence fluctuates with him mood; if he's happy, then I can live. If he's not, then I feel like I have been given my own personal hell.

Threats of Violence: "I'm going to beat you up." He usually carries these out too, but if I express any kind of not-perfectly-happy sentiment, then I get beaten up and/or being chided for being "a puss". If I even seem violently angry with him, I get beaten with 20 hard slugs to the same spot on the arm, which is always sensitive to getting hit because he's been pummeling it for years. Even talking to him in a slightly unhappy tone results in threats.

Breaking or Striking Objects: Namely: me. He hits the table and yells "Bull-Fucking-Shit!" if the rest of the family disagrees with him. He's broken most of my Xbox Live mics by swinging them by the cord and throwing them into the wall if I use them at all in his presence except with known, established, approved-by-him family friends. He also steals my computer at least once a month just because he feels that I'm not giving him enough "attention" or I'm being mean to him.

Force during an Argument: When we were disputing the effectiveness of gun control, when I showed him hard proof that gun control increases crime, I got beaten up. When I disagreed with him over video game tacts or weapon choice, I get beaten up. If I sound angry, I get beaten up. If I make even a verbal move against him, I get beaten hard. If he accuses me of doing something that he claims makes him mad, if I deny it, he beats me up until I admit that I did it. For example, I once brought him a Doctor Pepper, having been forced to do so after being forced away from the T.V. by being hit several times in the upper arms. Unfortuantely, I had to go up stairs to get them, so it was slightly shaken up. I wanted him that it might expolde, but he didn't listen "If it explodes, I'll beat you up." It did get a tiny little fizz pop on his knuckle. I tried to run, but he caught me on the stairs and beat me for 18 minutes in the same spot as hard as he could until I said I did it. I then started getting kicked because I had to say "I did it on purpose to hurt you, Adrian." I got beaten for 2 more minutes by kicking until I admitted to doing that. Then, he stopped beating me and justified himself in an offhand manner "I don't like when you lie to me, Brian."


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## CallSignOWL

call social services?


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## Mutatio NOmenis

I've also been told that I have this:

Complex post-traumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for fucking me up, Brother. Remember, you hurt me because you were never capable of mastering yourself. You were too pathetic and weak to cope with childhood and a brother who wasn't quite normal. You were always called the "best one". You became used to winning. And if you didn't win, you couldn't handle being not the best. So you turned on someone who wouldn't and couldn't fight back. You've used him to get your stress out. You never gave a fuck about what you did to him- about what you made him experience, what it was like to grow up being reminded that you were inferior and could never truly be good enough. Now, I have to cope with you pushing all your problems on me, and I have to deal with growing up and being a slightly abnormal teen who is headed off to college come summer. I hope your girlfriends don't mind being beaten, because once I can get away, I'm never going to willingly see you again, and you'll be all alone, with no way to cope with the stresses of ordinary life. Have fun drowning in the same shit you've been putting me through since elementary school.


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## pinkrasputin

noosabar said:


> I have been the perpetrator of abuse, towards my partner, friends and colleagues. I had an obnoxious facade of confidence, looking for conflict in every facet of my life, and every corner I turned I found what I was looking for. It was about control, controling the world around me. It made me grit my teeth, clench my fists, and look for the next target.
> Inside ther was something wrong, terribly wrong, I knew that, I didn't know what it was so I just kept doing what I knew, thinking once I had superiority, I could revel in my coquests and all would be well, totally blind to the truth, burnining bridges, killing my lifeline, destroying myself. Behind the facade there was a spiral of insecurity, if no one would look at me Id make them see.
> I had pushed all my friends away, every last one, torching the passage as I went. My partner of 11 years stood quietly by my side, I cant begin to imagine the pain she would have been in, yet she endured. She loved me so much and I was totally blind to it. I was out of control. I wanted to kill people. When she was the only one standing I turned my energies on her, emotionally striping her to pieces, breaking the very soul of the person who only ever showed me unconditional love. She left me on my birthday, very apt. It hurt me more than anyone ever could. It was also the greatest gift anyone could ever give. It forced me to take fucking long hard look at myself, no one else would, every last person who was in my life was gone. To this day Im too ashamed to contact her, the damage is too great.
> I can describe how things happened, I can't begin to comprehend what I was thinking, It makes me sick. It was something building within me from a young age and it climaxed 4 years ago. I have since been totally humbled by life, It has slapped me down I ways I could never dream. Its not easy now, but its easier than being angry and abusive. It hurts to think, that person was me.
> All my relationships since have been the reverse scenario, opening my eyes further to what it was like to live on the end of such awfull contempt and manipulation, and feeling the pain that abounds.
> I see most of the points listed as integral parts to my quest for control. I think I have changed dramatically, Im not sure if I should be the judge of that.


Thank you for being bold enough to write this. It would be amazing to know that my abusers would have eventually reflected in this way. Are you in touch with Domestic Violence program in your areas? They can help you find a batterer's treatment program. Domestic abuse is a learned behavior and it can be unlearned. You have to want it, however and work very hard. 



noosabar said:


> Twelve months after leaving without a trace, she sent me a message on my mobile phone, she wanted to come back. I declined her. I didn't tell her why, the temptation was immesurable, I don't think things would have been different at such an early stage.
> 
> I have written to her in recent times, and outlined my regrets, and how the culmination of all that happened had affected my life, as well as where I think Im at. I concluded with these words " If I don't hear from you I understand", and I do, and I haven't. Its ok. If I bore witness to the last images she recieved, I don't think I'd look back either.
> 
> I have tried to call her, guess what. I can't speak.
> 
> I am happy for her, that she found the courage to leave and to make herself a better life.


I think contact at this time, even in the future is not important. I am currently going through the process of turning my Temporary Restraining Order against my abuser into a 5 year. There is no need for contact. He made apologies for his behavior after he did the violence while we were still together. That was just another part of the cycle of violence. Your apologies now could continue the cycle. Part of her healing is detaching from you. Both of you need to work on yourselves separately. I caution you about re-instigating any contact with her. 



noosabar said:


> One day, I might be able to talk to her, to communicate on a level field. A letter is a secondary means, with a very biasd input. Id love to communicate, too many blocks. I carry a lot from that situation it meddles with me, but then I've done my fare share.
> 
> I have had one two term relationship, with a very self destructive, angry woman. I recall one outbust which included, I don't trust you, you are not my knight in shining armour, you have a disease, I would never have a child with you, I would never spend a cent on you,accompanied by all kinds of profanities. flooding me with accusations and cutting me down in front of others was a special gift. Ouch that stuff goes right to the bone, demoralising, hurtful. Thats when I really took note to the errors of my former ways I stayed and endured, and fathered her child, not my child. I got so involved with the little girl and loved her as my own. Her mother was jealous of the connection, and would use it as leverage into her next barrage of assults, saying such things as go away and have your own. It was as awfully painfull to witness as It was to recieve. Eventually I had to go, and along with it came the denial of contact with the little girl.The little one remembers me, there was sooo much love. Her mother now palms her off to anyone available, except the person who loves her just as much. Im pretty sure thats just another dagger after the fact. Its very sad for all parties. She was not always nasty she was exceptionally skillfull at lulling me into submission with seduction, getting me comfortable and then slam. In the end I didn't know who I was.
> She is just like I was, burning and pushing. I feel like I was the person I am now trying to escape, but resisting all efforts. I still have a lot to do, I don't want to control or be controlled, it's too much work.


If you did not work with a domestic violence program and receive education, it is very easy to find yourself in a similar situation. I highly recommend calling a domestic violence resource in your area to get some help.

Just know that relationships that contain multiple forms of abuse can feel confusing. Many abusers blame the victim for their behavior and call them abusive. You can look at who is initiating the abuse and if it is to gain power and control over the other person. Reactive anger is often associated with being abused. 

All types of abuse are done for the purpose of gaining power and control over the victim. The types of abuse are different but are often inflicted upon a victim in various combinations. One type is physical abuse, it is the use of physical force against another person in a way that ends up injuring the person, or puts the person at risk of being injured. Even if a slap or pulling of hair doesn’t hurt, it is not the level of pain inflicted that defines if the action is abuse. It is the reason and intent of the person doing the action, and damage done to the recipient of the action, that helps to define if the action is abuse.


----------



## Lilsnowy

I agree, Noosabar, that detachment and working on yourselves seperately are key to healing. 

And yes, if there is any kind of program that is available in your area, it would be a great education and outlet for expressing your grief and learning new ways of thinking and relating. I'm happy you're reaching out here. :')


----------



## noosabar

Ill give you another angle now.

Every day, and I mean every day apart from the four or five days annually, she would go home for christmas, I would be woken up by my s.o sitting on the bed next to me saying quietly, your breakfast is ready. 
Lunch would be made, dinner cooked, clothes washed and put away everything in order ***** and span. If I attempted to cook for myself, she would intervene and take over. All I had to do each day was get up and go to work.
If I worked weekends she would come with me. If I went to town for milk she would come with me. If I walked over to the shed, she would follow me, sometimes I would do just that out of intrigue, and no questions, she was right behind me.
Her friends were my friends. If I asked her what she would like to do, she would say what do you want to do?. I would ask her what color she would like to paint the wall, she would say what color do you want to paint the wall. How shall we design our house, how would you like to design the house and so on, I think you get the idea. every decision in the relationship was mine. I asked her one day why she didn't want to do things, she said, someone has to lead and Im just happy to follow.
She was interested in the things I was interested in, not because she was genuinely interested herself, but she liked them because I liked them. There was no challenge, there was no conflict, there were no boundries, I did as I pleased, whenever.She was always there, always at my side, always at my service.
Now this girl, as unambitious as she was, was _the_ most intelligent person I had ever met, and remains so to this day. It would frustrate me that such potential laid dormant. I tried to encourage her, but she was just happy by my side.
Eventually as my own situation and insecurities came to a head (last 3 years of relationship) the old addage kicked in,familiarity breeds contempt. I began to dislike the situation and as I was too insecure, I couln't do anything other than push her away while keeping her at my side, attacking her with emotional abuse, which really hurt her and I didn't care. I know this element of me was always present, but not to the extreme as in the closing years of our togetherness. Very narcissistic.
There were no boundries I couldn't cross so I kept expanding them, looking for reason, wanting to hear a no, an I disagree, or a this is what I want. I was very lonely and getting very angry.

This passage is no excuse for my deplorabe behaviour.


----------



## noosabar

pinkrasputin said:


> Thank you for being bold enough to write this. It would be amazing to know that my abusers would have eventually reflected in this way. Are you in touch with Domestic Violence program in your areas? They can help you find a batterer's treatment program. Domestic abuse is a learned behavior and it can be unlearned. You have to want it, however and work very hard.
> 
> I think contact at this time, even in the future is not important. I am currently going through the process of turning my Temporary Restraining Order against my abuser into a 5 year. There is no need for contact. He made apologies for his behavior after he did the violence while we were still together. That was just another part of the cycle of violence. Your apologies now could continue the cycle. Part of her healing is detaching from you. Both of you need to work on yourselves separately. I caution you about re-instigating any contact with her.
> 
> If you did not work with a domestic violence program and receive education, it is very easy to find yourself in a similar situation. I highly recommend calling a domestic violence resource in your area to get some help.
> 
> Just know that relationships that contain multiple forms of abuse can feel confusing. Many abusers blame the victim for their behavior and call them abusive. You can look at who is initiating the abuse and if it is to gain power and control over the other person. Reactive anger is often associated with being abused.
> 
> All types of abuse are done for the purpose of gaining power and control over the victim. The types of abuse are different but are often inflicted upon a victim in various combinations. One type is physical abuse, it is the use of physical force against another person in a way that ends up injuring the person, or puts the person at risk of being injured. Even if a slap or pulling of hair doesn’t hurt, it is not the level of pain inflicted that defines if the action is abuse. It is the reason and intent of the person doing the action, and damage done to the recipient of the action, that helps to define if the action is abuse.


There is no way, I my mind as I see it that Im going back there. 

In the second relationship, I managed to get her to go to relationship councelling twice, she was a firm believer in that problems and labels to problems don't exist that she was special, and no one could understand or help her. I was warned by everyone close to her to run, as she was a handful. And a handfull she was, I didn't mind the four seasons in one day emotional roller coaster, In fact It really made her interesting to me, I had the most fun with her, life was so random and adventurous. Its when her problems became my fault that the hurt set in. I had no idea as to how to handle them, I had never been on the recieving end. Despite her attacks she would always tell me I was a very good man to her and her daughter, I believe I was. Her former boyfriends none of which was for more than 9 months ( she is 36 and never without) were the dirt of the earth and slandered. I know to this day, through common friends that she holds me in high esteem. Too proud to admit it, or to come close, her motto was to never back down. It was a very painfull time.

I have not considered any abuse councelling. Im frightened of women, I went from one extreme to another.
I don't want to play.

Can someone else go now please, Im exhausted.


----------



## pinkrasputin

noosabar said:


> There is no way, I my mind as I see it that Im going back there.
> 
> In the second relationship, I managed to get her to go to relationship councelling twice, she was a firm believer in that problems and labels to problems don't exist that she was special, and no one could understand or help her. I was warned by everyone close to her to run, as she was a handful. And a handfull she was, I didn't mind the four seasons in one day emotional roller coaster, In fact It really made her interesting to me, I had the most fun with her, life was so random and adventurous. Its when her problems became my fault that the hurt set in. I had no idea as to how to handle them, I had never been on the recieving end. Despite her attacks she would always tell me I was a very good man to her and her daughter, I believe I was. Her former boyfriends none of which was for more than 9 months ( she is 36 and never without) were the dirt of the earth and slandered. I know to this day, through common friends that she holds me in high esteem. Too proud to admit it, or to come close, her motto was to never back down. It was a very painfull time.


 I am sorry for your pain and confusion. But I think you really nailed it on the head when you mentioned "boundaries". You lacked boundaries. I believe this because of many reasons. You didn't work on understanding the first relationship before you went into the second one. Perhaps you felt you deserved to be treated a certain way after the first one and it was a self fulfilling prophesy? Clear precise boundaries and assertiveness would have helped you in both relationships. I don't think you ever set your own limitations and became passive instead. Being passive leads to aggression and explosions later. This is because you are still an individual even when you are in a relationship. And it's best to start drawing your boundaries early on. 



> I have not considered any abuse councelling. Im frightened of women, I went from one extreme to another.
> I don't want to play.


I really feel bad for you. But honestly, I thought you were stronger than this last statement. 

I have been molested, gang raped, and beaten by abusers who happened to be men. But I don't see all men this way. That would be ridiculous of me. I _refuse_ to let abusive people win and rob me of a satisfying life. Nor do I have to hold the rest of the world responsible for what a few have done to me and become distrustful. 

I do think you are not in a space to have a relationship. And you probably don't trust yourself in one anyway. But women aren't to blame. And relationships aren't to blame. But relationships are certainly not for the weak. If just two relationships gone sour have totally made you give up and become fearful, you certainly don't have what it takes to be in one. At least not now, anyway. Relationships are for those with strength and the ability to self reflect and become honest. They take endurance and one hell of a commitment to do some inner work. _Relationships are tough for everyone, they take work. _ 

*Self knowledge will get you far. And I hope that one day a part of your self knowledge includes knowing how much you deserve to give love and to be loved in return.* Never give up and continue to pursue routes to become healthy. You're worth it. Yes, you've screwed up in the past. But fight with everything you've got to not be forever defined by it. Keep moving forward. We all have mountains to climb. And those mountains can be a bitch. But I promise you, they will tell you what you're made of. 
****************************************************************************************************

I just wanted to add something in regards to typical initial relationship behavior. In the beginning during the honeymoon phase (infatuation) most couples smother each other . They are unrealistic when it comes to "being with each other all the time." Reality has to eventually set in. Otherwise, neither person will be effective in their lives. It is usually at this crisis point that the relationship can take one of 2 courses: The Abusive Route- one partner makes attempts to gain control over the other partner. The other partner takes on the role of "giving up themselves" and being controlled.

Or

The Healthy Route- Both partners agree to maintain their individual identities. They don't mind giving the other partner space when asked. They support each other in their individual goals as well as nurture the relationship. Proper boundaries are constantly drawn by both partners. _The individuals continue to grow separately as well as together. _

*Also know that in abusive relationships, couples counseling is NOT recommended. Individual counseling works best in that case.


----------



## skycloud86

noosabar said:


> Ill give you another angle now.
> 
> Every day, and I mean every day apart from the four or five days annually, she would go home for christmas, I would be woken up by my s.o sitting on the bed next to me saying quietly, your breakfast is ready.
> Lunch would be made, dinner cooked, clothes washed and put away everything in order ***** and span. If I attempted to cook for myself, she would intervene and take over. All I had to do each day was get up and go to work.
> If I worked weekends she would come with me. If I went to town for milk she would come with me. If I walked over to the shed, she would follow me, sometimes I would do just that out of intrigue, and no questions, she was right behind me.
> Her friends were my friends. If I asked her what she would like to do, she would say what do you want to do?. I would ask her what color she would like to paint the wall, she would say what color do you want to paint the wall. How shall we design our house, how would you like to design the house and so on, I think you get the idea. every decision in the relationship was mine. I asked her one day why she didn't want to do things, she said, someone has to lead and Im just happy to follow.
> She was interested in the things I was interested in, not because she was genuinely interested herself, but she liked them because I liked them. There was no challenge, there was no conflict, there were no boundries, I did as I pleased, whenever.She was always there, always at my side, always at my service.
> Now this girl, as unambitious as she was, was _the_ most intelligent person I had ever met, and remains so to this day. It would frustrate me that such potential laid dormant. I tried to encourage her, but she was just happy by my side.
> Eventually as my own situation and insecurities came to a head (last 3 years of relationship) the old addage kicked in,familiarity breeds contempt. I began to dislike the situation and as I was too insecure, I couln't do anything other than push her away while keeping her at my side, attacking her with emotional abuse, which really hurt her and I didn't care. I know this element of me was always present, but not to the extreme as in the closing years of our togetherness. Very narcissistic.
> There were no boundries I couldn't cross so I kept expanding them, looking for reason, wanting to hear a no, an I disagree, or a this is what I want. I was very lonely and getting very angry.
> 
> This passage is no excuse for my deplorabe behaviour.


I think such a relationship would frustrate me as well. I do not like to be served as if I was someone's master, and I don't think I would last long in a relationship like that. I need my partner to be my equal, to be willing to help me make decisions as a couple. Things like cooking and cleaning to be shared between us so that we helped one another. It would annoy me if a highly intelligent woman I was in love with had no ambitions other than what to make for lunch.

I hope if I am ever in the kind of relationship you were, that I walk away before I hurt her in any way, because that, personally, would be far worse than her acting subservient to me.


----------



## Lilsnowy

noosabar, I think you _are_ exhausted. You're exposing a lot of yourself and your situation and that can be overwhelming. Please take a deep breath and just relax. You're on the right path. 

But please consider what Pinkrasputin is saying in bold above: "Self knowledge will get you far. And I hope that one day a part of your self knowledge includes knowing how much you deserve to give love and to be loved in return. Never give up and continue to pursue routes to become healthy. You're worth it. Yes, you've screwed up in the past. But fight with everything you've got to not be forever defined by it. Keep moving forward."


----------



## noosabar

pinkrasputin said:


> Thank you for being bold enough to write this. It would be amazing to know that my abusers would have eventually reflected in this way. Are you in touch with Domestic Violence program in your areas? They can help you find a batterer's treatment program. Domestic abuse is a learned behavior and it can be unlearned. You have to want it, however and work very hard.
> 
> I think contact at this time, even in the future is not important. I am currently going through the process of turning my Temporary Restraining Order against my abuser into a 5 year. There is no need for contact. He made apologies for his behavior after he did the violence while we were still together. That was just another part of the cycle of violence. Your apologies now could continue the cycle. Part of her healing is detaching from you. Both of you need to work on yourselves separately. I caution you about re-instigating any contact with her.
> 
> If you did not work with a domestic violence program and receive education, it is very easy to find yourself in a similar situation. I highly recommend calling a domestic violence resource in your area to get some help.
> 
> Just know that relationships that contain multiple forms of abuse can feel confusing. Many abusers blame the victim for their behavior and call them abusive. You can look at who is initiating the abuse and if it is to gain power and control over the other person. Reactive anger is often associated with being abused.
> 
> All types of abuse are done for the purpose of gaining power and control over the victim. The types of abuse are different but are often inflicted upon a victim in various combinations. One type is physical abuse, it is the use of physical force against another person in a way that ends up injuring the person, or puts the person at risk of being injured. Even if a slap or pulling of hair doesn’t hurt, it is not the level of pain inflicted that defines if the action is abuse. It is the reason and intent of the person doing the action, and damage done to the recipient of the action, that helps to define if the action is abuse.





pinkrasputin said:


> I am sorry for your pain and confusion. But I think you really nailed it on the head when you mentioned "boundaries". You lacked boundaries. I believe this because of many reasons. You didn't work on understanding the first relationship before you went into the second one. Perhaps you felt you deserved to be treated a certain way after the first one and it was a self fulfilling prophesy? Clear precise boundaries and assertiveness would have helped you in both relationships. I don't think you ever set your own limitations and became passive instead. Being passive leads to aggression and explosions later. This is because you are still an individual even when you are in a relationship. And it's best to start drawing your boundaries early on.
> 
> I really feel bad for you. But honestly, I thought you were stronger than this last statement.
> 
> I have been molested, gang raped, and beaten by abusers who happened to be men. But I don't see all men this way. That would be ridiculous of me. I _refuse_ to let abusive people win and rob me of a satisfying life. Nor do I have to hold the rest of the world responsible for what a few have done to me and become distrustful.
> 
> I do think you are not in a space to have a relationship. And you probably don't trust yourself in one anyway. But women aren't to blame. And relationships aren't to blame. But relationships are certainly not for the weak. If just two relationships gone sour have totally made you give up and become fearful, you certainly don't have what it takes to be in one. At least not now, anyway. Relationships are for those with strength and the ability to self reflect and become honest. They take endurance and one hell of a commitment to do some inner work. _Relationships are tough for everyone, they take work. _
> 
> *Self knowledge will get you far. And I hope that one day a part of your self knowledge includes knowing how much you deserve to give love and to be loved in return.* Never give up and continue to pursue routes to become healthy. You're worth it. Yes, you've screwed up in the past. But fight with everything you've got to not be forever defined by it. Keep moving forward. We all have mountains to climb. And those mountains can be a bitch. But I promise you, they will tell you what you're made of.
> ****************************************************************************************************
> 
> I just wanted to add something in regards to typical initial relationship behavior. In the beginning during the honeymoon phase (infatuation) most couples smother each other . They are unrealistic when it comes to "being with each other all the time." Reality has to eventually set in. Otherwise, neither person will be effective in their lives. It is usually at this crisis point that the relationship can take one of 2 courses: The Abusive Route- one partner makes attempts to gain control over the other partner. The other partner takes on the role of "giving up themselves" and being controlled.
> 
> Or
> 
> The Healthy Route- Both partners agree to maintain their individual identities. They don't mind giving the other partner space when asked. They support each other in their individual goals as well as nurture the relationship. Proper boundaries are constantly drawn by both partners. _The individuals continue to grow separately as well as together. _
> 
> *Also know that in abusive relationships, couples counseling is NOT recommended. Individual counseling works best in that case.


Sorry I gave you the wrong impression. Right now Im not strong at all. Im having a right c%$t of a time. I'll own it, its mine, and It will pass. Dont want to play is ok, Im allowed that. Being scared? why not? its where Im at, its the truth, Im not going to lie about it, don't assume Ill be apathetic towards this situation either, its just part of it, and Ill get to it. At no point did I mention I was pursuing a relationship. On just about every other point you made, I agree, I see this, especially the self fullfilling prophecy. 
I cant summarise a long term relationship into a pc post, I can make some points which were profound influences to a chain of events. I would like to clarify, I dont blame others, Im hard on myself over situations that can't be changed, I think its inherent, thats life, we make regrets, and learn from them.

Looks like I worked out the quote within a quote part, hmm I just need to refine it. wtf


----------



## noosabar

Lilsnowy said:


> noosabar, I think you _are_ exhausted. You're exposing a lot of yourself and your situation and that can be overwhelming. Please take a deep breath and just relax. You're on the right path.
> 
> But please consider what Pinkrasputin is saying in bold above: "Self knowledge will get you far. And I hope that one day a part of your self knowledge includes knowing how much you deserve to give love and to be loved in return. Never give up and continue to pursue routes to become healthy. You're worth it. Yes, you've screwed up in the past. But fight with everything you've got to not be forever defined by it. Keep moving forward."


I really don't mind talking about this stuff. I dont feel exposed or vulnerable, there is nothing to loose, something to gain.


----------



## Lilsnowy

I think it's great!


----------



## pinkrasputin

noosabar said:


> I really don't mind talking about this stuff. I dont feel exposed or vulnerable, there is nothing to loose, something to gain.


Awesome. :happy:

You can also blog about it all too. Letting it all out at your own pace may feel good. I can't tell you how much gut-wrenching blobbity blah I've done here through blogging. It's helped me though.

And yes, you have a right to feel anyway you feel. I'm just glad you aren't giving up.


----------



## Susanna

noosabar,
You have made such a wonderful breakthrough and I feel like you have been so fortunate to have come to the realization of it. Do remember that no matter how difficult this may be, you are overcoming, on your way to health, This is not for the faint hearted.


----------



## noosabar

It would be good to hear a perspective from an abusive female.


----------



## noosabar

Susanna said:


> noosabar,
> You have made such a wonderful breakthrough and I feel like you have been so fortunate to have come to the realization of it. Do remember that no matter how difficult this may be, you are overcoming, on your way to health, This is not for the faint hearted.


It was inevitabe. I was better than that, I just didn't know how.


----------



## pinkrasputin

noosabar said:


> It would be good to hear a perspective from an abusive female.


You probably aren't going to find any. Because if an abusive person gets to the point where they admit they are abusive, they get help for it an no longer are abusive. Abusers rarely look into a mirror. 

Also, I have another thread where abusive behaviors are listed. Most people have done some of those behaviors. That is why education is so important. I will see if I can find the thread and give you the link.


----------



## INTent

Wow. I counted 15 out of there that fit my ex.


----------



## noosabar

pinkrasputin said:


> You probably aren't going to find any. Because if an abusive person gets to the point where they admit they are abusive, they get help for it an no longer are abusive. Abusers rarely look into a mirror.
> 
> Also, I have another thread where abusive behaviors are listed. Most people have done some of those behaviors. That is why education is so important. I will see if I can find the thread and give you the link.


I don't understand why?. I think its important to acknowledge all our parts to keep us in line. Isn't that denial.

Maybe I should have said post abusive female. Or anyone for that matter.

Sorry i misread this post, negate my question.


----------



## noosabar

pinkrasputin said:


> I am sorry you went through that. But I am happy you're out. I went through something very similar. Sounds like you decided to get out quicker. It' s lovely when they are finally in jail and you can get the protective order (and in my case also finally apply for divorce), isn't it?
> 
> Just to let you know, they never change. It is years later. I unfortunately let the original RO drop and he bled his way back into my life and really messed up our child. It's been 4 years since I first left. I've been back in court recently to finally make my RO permanent and to kick out of our lives forever. And even after all the violence he has had on both of us, even though it has been legally substantiated, according to him I am _still_ the crazy one, emotionally unstable and wanting to kill myself.
> 
> Oh the lies they can tell. Everything is _never_ about the abuser. In their minds _we always_ made them do it.


I disagree with your statement that they never change, I find it very closed minded. If we are willing to let go if certain ideals and open the doorway to opportunity, anything is possible. I would have once believed such a statement, not now.


----------



## pinkrasputin

noosabar said:


> I disagree with your statement that they never change, I find it very closed minded. If we are willing to let go if certain ideals and open the doorway to opportunity, anything is possible. I would have once believed such a statement, not now.


The abusers that I've seen change were usually arrested and held accountable for their actions. That is a huge part.

I think we've gone beyond the scope of this thread. However, I did some research for you. Here is a website for men in Australia, they can hook you up with appropriate services. Mensline (1800 600 636) :: dvconnect family + violence service queensland


----------



## Mutatio NOmenis

noosabar said:


> It would be good to hear a perspective from an abusive female.


Sorry, but here are two things you need to read:

All Abusers Are Male - Television Tropes & Idioms
&
Abuse Is Okay When It Is Female On Male - Television Tropes & Idioms

It's not really okay for anyone to abuse another, but this is how the society seems to perceive it.


----------



## noosabar

Mutatio I think a lot of men suffer in silence.

Women can talk to women. Most men dont talk to anyone.


----------



## pinkrasputin

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> It's not really okay for anyone to abuse another, but this is how the society seems to perceive it.


What "society"? You mean, you? I never believed it. Who is this "society"? Wow. Be careful not to perpetuate hate, Mutatio. I'm disappointed.

I don't know many people who believe anyone has the right to abuse anyone. And no where on this thread did I ever say abuse was one sex over the other. 

Perhaps you should trust statistics rather than theories that only perpetuate further division and misunderstanding between the sexes. 

I posted on another thread murder statistics in domestic violence cases. #66 http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/27945-feminism-has-gone-too-far-7.html 

If you want to keep pulling this thread into an unnecessary battle of the sexes, I will have it closed instead. And that would be such a shame too, because some people who may really need to see the OP, might miss it.


----------



## Hardstyler

When guys are victim of abuse they tend to stay quiet because no ones gonna believe a 5'10" 210 pound guy got abused by a 5"3 120 pound women.


----------



## Jazibelle

Thank you for the post Pink!

I was in an mental abusive relationship 19 years, it didn't start that way, well I didn't see the signs... 
anyway, I left him, I'm proud of my self, I have a new life now with my kids, we are all happy and relaxed.
We talk alot and share our thoughts, I'm there for them, I'm just sorry that I didn't do it sooner...
I feel, it's sort of a brainwash, we have to give our self time to adjust and not continue the bad patern
cuz, even if he's not there anymore we still have things we do that isn't right.

Love and respect

If I ask my new bf to be wrought with me having sex one night, if there's love and respect. 
*that is not abuse!*

ps the new bf is an example I don't have one yet... it's on my christmas list tho...


----------



## Lilsnowy

I think Mutatio makes a valid point and is not perpetuating hate by his statement. That seems harsh.

'Society' may perpetuate abuse by quietly condoning it. Police wouldn't do anything for the longest time, but now they can be sued for not protecting a woman. Many people look the other way, and many men are too embarrassed to say anything if they are being emotionally or physically abused. The articles Mutatio shared gave examples of main characters in TV and movies expressing disbelief that women could do wrong or discounting the effects of female abusers. 

I don't feel it's a battle of the sexes or beyond the scope of the thread to say that women abuse men too. It may not be as frequent or pervasive and men abusing women, but it happens. InTent said that his ex was abusive or seemed to have many of the problems listed. I'm assuming that was a woman, but even if it wasn't, we shouldn't ignore that. If we call bringing up the fact that women can also be abusive 'a battle of the sexes' the entire point of the thread is lost.


----------



## Mutatio NOmenis

Hardstyler said:


> When guys are victim of abuse they tend to stay quiet because no ones gonna believe a 5'10" 210 pound guy got abused by a 5"3 120 pound women.


That's exactly what I was trying to point out. It's just plain humiliating to get your ass handed to you buy a petitie girl who can't even bench 50 pounds. There are laws in some jurisdictions wehre the man is automatically arrested in Domestic Violence incidents, even if he is the victim.

And just for extra horror, I remembered to add in this:

Rape Is Ok When It Is Female On Male - Television Tropes & Idioms

And to lighten up the thread...

6 Romantic Movie Gestures That Can Get You Prison Time | Cracked.com

Oh and about the battle of the sexes, it was called off due to the fact that everyone's chosen arms was in fact, a pair of their arms which they used to entrap and snuggle with their victims. And a good time was had by alll and a good time was experienced by all had.


----------



## pinkrasputin

Lilsnowy said:


> I think Mutatio makes a valid point and is not perpetuating hate by his statement. That seems harsh.
> 
> 'Society' may perpetuate abuse by quietly condoning it. Police wouldn't do anything for the longest time, but now they can be sued for not protecting a woman.


And men can sue for not protecting a man. ANYONE can sue. 



Mutatio NOmenis said:


> That's exactly what I was trying to point out. It's just plain humiliating to get your ass handed to you buy a petitie girl who can't even bench 50 pounds. *There are laws in some jurisdictions wehre the man is automatically arrested in Domestic Violence incidents, even if he is the victim.*


Show me where these laws are please. And I know of _plenty_ of cases where an abusive man has had his victim arrested time and time again after he has put marks on himself. 

Some men to don't like to report it because they fear social stigma. Some women don't like to report it because of social stigma. There are plenty of cases where a victim in a same sex relationship doesn't report because they are afraid to be "outed". 

I know people on this forum who have admittingly abused their partner and continue to walk around free. Their victim DID NOT report it or press charges against them. And I believe it did the abuser a huge disservice. 

BUT

There are many people who are victims who don't report it at all because they don't understand what abuse is. And there are many people who continue the abuse cycle in new relationships. 

And THAT is more in line with this thread. Educating these people. I posted something to help people (men and women alike) avoid potentially dangerous relationships. THAT is in the scope of this thread. 

Mutatio, I really asked you to stop. It is extremely damaging to society to weaken the reality of domestic violence. When you go off on some tangent about how "society says it's okay for men/women..." we get no where and it pulls the focus away from the reality about how many people die each year in domestic violence. Look at the statistics Mutatio and stop posting stupid links. You received enough validation on this thread for what your going through _with your brother._

I'm asking for this to be closed.


----------



## Daimai

Why is point 3 something bad? I compliment people I like (excessively).


----------



## lirulin

Pointing out the way abuse is portrayed in popular culture and some of the damaging ideas that are thus propagated is another way of educating people. Certain aspects/representations of abuse are normalised or minimised and this plays a role in social stigma, stigma which can prevent someone from reporting. If men will feel too ashamed to report something, then pointing out certain ideas propagated in society about the silliness/laughability of a man being abused by a woman which may contribute to this shame/stigma is a valid point. Just as a widespread normalisation of certain aspects of male on female abuse contributing to stigma is important to point out. People can benefit from learning to identify these poisonous ideas. None of this is weakening the reality of it - instead it is pointing out how this sense of reality can be weakened for victims who are exposed to these ideas. This is not a battle of the sexes and treating it as one misses the entire point.


----------



## Digger Blue

*Boundaries, etc.*



Lady K said:


> So, what does it mean when I request my partner to "playfully" force me to have sex with him?


Lady K:
There are rules of the road. You seem to enjoy having a good time out in the rough. You might want to get the opinion of a professional certified sexual counselor on this one. 

Sexual Intimacy is a wonderful thing, but there can be really big issues between partners r.e. power and control. Check it out with a credentialed, qualified counselor and discuss these issues thoroughly. Mental health is a critically important thing. 

Regards,
Digger Blue


----------



## Sina

This is an educational and empowering thread that should not be closed for any reason whatsoever, in my opinion. The thread has allowed many to come forth and share their experiences, advice and so on. The discussion must continue, regardless of the emergence of detours. It will be a huge disservice to existing members and those that will join in future if discourse, on this thread, were abruptly ended due to any member's comments. This is one of my favourite threads on the forum, and its importance is not lost on me. It's quite possible that a person in an abusive relationship would feel stronger and more informed by reading the experiences (and info) shared here, and take appropriate steps towards leaving the damaging situation. 

Mutatio, I am not offended by your post. As others have said, society has a way of normalizing abuse against men and turning it into a subject of mirth. It's not just about women abusing men; there are homosexual men who suffer abusive relationships. Also, I know someone very close to me who is a compassionate, intelligent and forgiving gentleman. He was physically, verbally and emotionally abused by his girlfriend. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that women can be and have been abusive, though it's important to acknowledge that abuse against women is far more pervasive and, many times, far more destructive when sexual abuse is taken into account for instance.


----------



## Mutatio NOmenis

^ That's it. There is some sort of bullshit floating around that men are inherently made of iron and therefore can't be hurt by abuse. Somehow, this leads to women being depicted as always right and always justified in their actions against their boyfriends no matter how far-fetched they are. For example, if you've ever watched Zero No Tsukaima and seen how Louise treats Saito (beats the living fuck out of him at the slightest provocation.). It's meant to be funny because Louise is a Tsundere and Saito is a horny guy; we're supposed to laugh. Now imagine if the genders were reversed... DUDE- NOT FUNNY! Every single person with a scrap of PCness is taking up arms against the animators for making that sort of sexist abuse comedic!

Unfortunately, this has led to the idea that men can't be raped by women, which is NOT TRUE AT ALL!

Click here for more

And click here for a lot more


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## AussieChick

I was in an abusive marriage for 7years.I have been separated for almost 10yrs,and am soon to be divorced.My husband was emotionally,physically,verbally and sexually abusive to both myself and our children.He was very dominating and controlling and exhibited many of the red flags that signify the possibility of abuse.I found it very hard leaving this relationship,and i realise that i should have divorced him long before now but i didn't believe that i would meet any one else and became dependent upon and very submissive to my husband.I have suffered from low self esteem,depression and anxiety as a result of the abuse.My husband doesn't want to let me go even after having lived apart for so many years.


----------



## pinkrasputin

Ozziechick1966 said:


> I was in an abusive marriage for 7years.I have been separated for almost 10yrs,and am soon to be divorced.My husband was emotionally,physically,verbally and sexually abusive to both myself and our children.He was very dominating and controlling and exhibited many of the red flags that signify the possibility of abuse.I found it very hard leaving this relationship,and i realise that i should have divorced him long before now but i didn't believe that i would meet any one else and became dependent upon and very submissive to my husband.I have suffered from low self esteem,depression and anxiety as a result of the abuse.My husband doesn't want to let me go even after having lived apart for so many years.


They never want to lose their power and control over you. Once you leave, if you have kids they will try that angle. I've been divorced for 6 years and separated for 8. I just recently had an awful court battle for custody. In other words, he finds ways to _still_ screw up my life. It's best to take care of it all when you leave.

Don't judge yourself for how long it took to leave. Everyone has their own story. And remember- that "honeymoon" period is a doozy. It's the reason why most keep going back. 

It's awesome that you even left. You should feel proud of your strength. Too many won't make it out alive. I too could beat myself up. I've let restraining orders drop over and over, only to get myself in trouble and realize that out of safety, I _have_ to start them again. And it's back to court I go. 

I hope you are working with an abuse crisis center in your area. They will help with everything. Plus, counseling is essential. I believe in counseling very strongly in this area. It's not the easiest path to fight your abuser. Especially if you still feel you love them. Having someone beside you supporting you really helps. 

You may pm me if you are having a difficult time finding a resource in your area. We can look together if you'd like. My best to you.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

Although i'm not or ever have been abused, this thread is very insightful. Bravo !!!!


----------



## pageofadiary

Awesome thread. Insightful indeed.


----------



## Terrestrial Wisdom

I have volunteered at a women's shelter for the abuse so I know the signs. When I date someone I always keep the warning signs in my mind... waiting to see if I notice something trying to take place so that I can get out of the relationship while it's still early. I don't like people telling me what to do so once someone starts with the controlling behavior I don't let it slide.

Great thread to help spread awareness. I have talked to women that have said that they didn't notice the warning signs until after they decided to leave the relationship. That's because many women don't know the signs or what to look for before they encounter that first abusive relationship. Teen girls also need to be aware. Everyone - men included. I know some women are very abusive also.


----------



## prplchknz

a person I slept with for a month defiently showed a few of those signs, but we never dated it was just sex. so it never reached abuse, I just didn't have feelings for him.


----------



## Noxes the Grey

Gah, reading these signs does not give me hope for my marriage. Being an ESTJ means you don't let all that many people close to you, and I'm kinda worried I made a terrible mistake with the past few years...
Kinda funny, because most people would assume me to be the controlling, jealous one....
Well, funny in a laugh so you don't cry kind of way :crying:


----------



## sweet misery

*abuse*

I enjoyed this. Having being a survivor of extreme domestic violence I have risen above it and am once strong again. As so wonderfully pointed out. It comes in all shapes and forms.


----------



## Sanskrit

When my Significant Other wants to leave me for not ever getting angry or even showing enough emotion to qualify as "caring" I think it is just her past in abusive family speaking.
But I often critizise people, not in belittleling way but in constructive manner. I do not insult or call them stupid and still they act like offering my insight and intellect is abusive and demeaning. Which is tragic as I then have to just stand back and see them fail and more then often either get hurt in progress, break things, and lash out then as a result.

Is it abusive to just let people to come to harm because they refuse your aid?


----------



## AussieChick

Sanskrit said:


> When my Significant Other wants to leave me for not ever getting angry or even showing enough emotion to qualify as "caring" I think it is just her past in abusive family speaking.
> But I often critizise people, not in belittleling way but in constructive manner. I do not insult or call them stupid and still they act like offering my insight and intellect is abusive and demeaning. Which is tragic as I then have to just stand back and see them fail and more then often either get hurt in progress, break things, and lash out then as a result.
> 
> Is it abusive to just let people to come to harm because they refuse your aid?


Well basically i think that in this instance,you would not be at fault if someone harmed themselves.You have offered advice constructively,and shown that you care for the other person.If they haven't taken your concern seriouslythen that's their problem,not yours.I can't see that this could be classed as abuse.You can only do so much,i told my son not to smoke pot, and drink alcohol.But he did,and he also overdosed on energy drinks,and nearly gave himself a heart attack.Well now he doesn't smoke pot,or drink alcohol or energy drinks.He lwarnt from his own mistakes.I think that sometimes we just have to stand back,and let people find things out for themselves.Even if it means that we see them self harm.


----------



## Sanskrit

Ozziechick1966 said:


> Well basically i think that in this instance,you would not be at fault if someone harmed themselves.You have offered advice constructively,and shown that you care for the other person.If they haven't taken your concern seriouslythen that's their problem,not yours.I can't see that this could be classed as abuse.You can only do so much,i told my son not to smoke pot, and drink alcohol.But he did,and he also overdosed on energy drinks,and nearly gave himself a heart attack.Well now he doesn't smoke pot,or drink alcohol or energy drinks.He lwarnt from his own mistakes.I think that sometimes we just have to stand back,and let people find things out for themselves.Even if it means that we see them self harm.


Well I am glad he learned at least something then. But does it not bother you that if you just would have tried to find a way to reach him, connect with him in some way perhaps he could have avoided those mistakes and the serious risk he was in?

I often am plagued by guilt as I fail to reach people and then they get hurt as I had predicted. Often thinking that I should have tried harder, in more versatile ways. But I let my own fustration get the best of me.
You see, when they say "Like you've never made mistakes in your life" I can only think to myself "that is it exactly".
I am the rare sort that can learn from the mistakes of others without having to do it myself. Or even learning from just thinking ahead and seeing probable mistakes. But I still can't learn from the mistakes I make when trying to reach these stubborn people. I am beginning to suspect I overestimate their intellect.:frustrating:


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## Thalassa

That list is pretty extensive and vague. I would say that some of those traits coincide with traits of Borderline Personality Disorder, and most of those traits listed can be warning signs.

However, I don't think hypersensitivity or playful use of force in sex necessarily always point to an abuser.


----------



## Thalassa

Sanskrit said:


> When my Significant Other wants to leave me for not ever getting angry or even showing enough emotion to qualify as "caring" I think it is just her past in abusive family speaking.
> But I often critizise people, not in belittleling way but in constructive manner. I do not insult or call them stupid and still they act like offering my insight and intellect is abusive and demeaning. Which is tragic as I then have to just stand back and see them fail and more then often either get hurt in progress, break things, and lash out then as a result.
> 
> Is it abusive to just let people to come to harm because they refuse your aid?


Some people just want to see displays of emotion, and I don't know if you're INTJ, but it's a type known for not showing emotion.

I'm not sure someone wants to see emotion or feelings because of coming from an abusive past, some people are just more comfortable with emotional expression.


----------



## Thalassa

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> I'm afraid that would take a lot of therapy, drugs, and time I don't have. If I even begin to feel, I either get so much anger I want to storm about and roaring "FUCK YOU!" at everyone, or I want to curl into the nearest corner and cry until I starve to death. I am a victim of child abuse (by my older twin brother), and the only two things keeping me going are my desire for money and the idea that if I stop, I let everyone else down. My own wants have nothing to do with it; I just do what I'm told because that's all I'm good for. I came really close to letting my parents know that I have real psychological damage underneath my stoicism. If they find out about it, then i'm getting put on Zoloft, and then I won't be able to even want anything.
> 
> YouTube - Gears of War - Mad World (Extended Version)
> 
> I need some serious help. My mom says that I have some major dents in my armor. I'm almost completely broken. I'm really only still functioning as a Fuck You to the people who say I can't do it.


This is a total cop out. You don't have time to go to therapy or overcome your past? Fucking bullshit. I've gone to therapy - and I also take an anti-depressant - and Zoloft doesn't make you "not able to want anything" ...and if you had a bad reaction to it in the past, there are SO many other anti-depressants that are available that could help you. Paxil was not good for me at all, but worked extremely well for a friend of mine - Wellbutrin is better for me. I think someone has seen _One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest _one too many times. The meds they have today aren't like the heavy tranqs they put psychotic people on back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Medications for mental illness have improved considerably since as recently as 1990.

I heard this kind of shit from my abusive ex boyfriend, that he didn't have time or money for therapy, or that medication would steal his soul or some nonsense.

It's all just an excuse to wallow.

EDIT: I read some more of your posts, and I urge you even more strongly to get help if you are being abused. Do not just try to avoid it. It doesn't work. Either you'll be a perpetual victim for all of your life, or become the abuser yourself if you don't get some kind of therapy.


----------



## the crow

The police turned up at my house one day, investigating claims by local residents, of suspected wife-abuse. 
She had truthfully answered a question from some food-bank addicts, as to why she looked "down". 
"My husband frightens me, sometimes," she said. 
It might be nice if people could mind their own business instead of searching for signs of "abuse" behind every tree. 

We have a wonderfully realized relationship, that took years of working at it, before reaching such loving harmony. 
If the self-styled Abuse-Vigilantes had had their way, we would now be divorced. 
As so many other couples have been destroyed, by-proxy, in a moment of weakness. 
That's Canadian Left-Wing Idiots for you. Especially when they live on a small island. 
To them I say: Get a life. Your _own_ life.


----------



## skycloud86

the crow said:


> The police turned up at my house one day, investigating claims by local residents, of suspected wife-abuse.
> She had truthfully answered a question from some food-bank addicts, as to why she looked "down".
> "My husband frightens me, sometimes," she said.
> It might be nice if people could mind their own business instead of searching for signs of "abuse" behind every tree.
> 
> We have a wonderfully realized relationship, that took years of working at it, before reaching such loving harmony.
> If the self-styled Abuse-Vigilantes had had their way, we would now be divorced.
> As so many other couples have been destroyed, by-proxy, in a moment of weakness.
> That's Canadian Left-Wing Idiots for you. Especially when they live on a small island.
> To them I say: Get a life. Your _own_ life.


How do you know that they were left-wing? Don't push your political biases on people you barely know simply because their good intentions annoyed you.


----------



## glisten

Thank you so much... My last boyfriend displayed all of these except a few. He turned out to be extremely emotionally and verbally abusive (completely isolating me from everyone but him, always claiming I was cheating on him if I wasn't with him 24/7, etc.) and even got physically abusive a few times. I wish I would have found something like this before it got so bad.


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## pinkrasputin

glisten said:


> Thank you so much... My last boyfriend displayed all of these except a few. He turned out to be extremely emotionally and verbally abusive (completely isolating me from everyone but him, always claiming I was cheating on him if I wasn't with him 24/7, etc.) and even got physically abusive a few times. I wish I would have found something like this before it got so bad.


You're welcome and me too. :wink:


----------



## Fizz

skycloud86 said:


> How do you know that they were left-wing? Don't push your political biases on people you barely know simply because their good intentions annoyed you.


Well, I think he _is _a crow, they know a thing or two about wings.


----------



## The13thGuest

I don't reslly see the issue of demanding dominance if the partner is willing to submit.
I also think that jealousy is a sign of love, not an abuser. In some cases it could be both, but overall I think it's fine to be jealous. Perhaps restricting your partner from seeing people who you suspect hav sexual interest in them is going a little bit far, but being jealous is fine. 
And playfully forcing another into sex.. Really? Most people I've been with enjoy being playfully forced into it because in the end they're always begging for more or at least enjoying it. 

You're pointing out signs of a partner with a dominant and perhaps a bit of a sadistic personality; not necesarily abusive. And what happens if one is abuse, but their partner is a complete masochist? Aren't they just feeding into their partners wants as they are to them? 

Tsk tsk, you should really think these things through Love. Good intentions with this thread, so I thank you for that.


----------



## Digger Blue

*Playfully Forcing one to have sex?*



The13thGuest said:


> And playfully forcing another into sex.. Really? Most people I've been with enjoy being playfully forced into it because in the end they're always begging for more or at least enjoying it.


Most people, perhaps. However, there are people who have really, really difficult issues with intimacy. :sad: Not all people can be forced or persuaded :angry: (especially if they have intimacy problems), and some people do not respond to playfulness. Good luck, but proceed cautiously  and with sensitivity. 
Digger Blue


----------



## The13thGuest

Digger Blue said:


> Most people, perhaps. However, there are people who have really, really difficult issues with intimacy. :sad: Not all people can be forced or persuaded :angry: (especially if they have intimacy problems), and some people do not respond to playfulness. Good luck, but proceed cautiously  and with sensitivity.
> Digger Blue


If I knew they didn't want sex and they didn't respond well to playful force I would never try it. I would never approach someone in such a way unless I was absolutely sure they would enjoy it. (Which most of them do.. Just saying.)


----------



## Digger Blue

I'm an ESFP, and married to an INFJ. She takes very poorly to play most any time, though she does seem to be developing a slight sense of humor. Play, according to her, does not belong in the bedroom. ESFP's are the otters of the world at their best, and maybe sometimes we just sit there giggling and laughing when the rest of the world doesn't want to be associated with us. (Does that make us blathering idiots? Perhaps!). 
Digger Blue


----------



## Digger Blue

*Playfully forced?*

Maybe a roll of filament tape, a blindfold, and a couple of shots of whiskey? :crazy:


----------



## pinkrasputin

The13thGuest said:


> I don't reslly see the issue of demanding dominance if the partner is willing to submit.


Keep in mind, submission is not consent in all cases. Some people fear for their lives when they submit. It all depends. This thread was meant to help people and was given by a domestic violence organization in order to educate the public. It has been incredibly helpful, even life saving for many people. These are warning signs for "abuse", not warning signs for s&m. 




> I also think that jealousy is a sign of love, not an abuser.


I completely disagree with you that jealousy is a sign of love. But you may continue to think so in your relationships. No one is twisting your arm. 

Abuse is about _power_ and _control_. Many abusers will display signs of jealousy in order to establish power and control over their partner. This is not love. The abuser's partner is merely an "object" to possess. 



> In some cases it could be both, but overall I think it's fine to be jealous. Perhaps restricting your partner from seeing people who you suspect hav sexual interest in them is going a little bit far, but being jealous is fine.
> And playfully forcing another into sex.. Really? Most people I've been with enjoy being playfully forced into it because in the end they're always begging for more or at least enjoying it.
> 
> You're pointing out signs of a partner with a dominant and perhaps a bit of a sadistic personality; not necesarily abusive. And what happens if one is abuse, but their partner is a complete masochist? Aren't they just feeding into their partners wants as they are to them?


These are some signs to help people spot an abusive personality. If it helps you that is great, if it doesn't simply move on.

I feel like you are arguing just to hear yourself perhaps? Sadistic personality? Masochist? What is your point? Are you trying to confuse people because you do not believe there is such a thing as abusive relationships? What do you believe are some warning signs for those cases? 

Is your motive here in making this post to really help people? Or was it to give yourself attention?



> Tsk tsk, you should really think these things through Love.


Well this is quite a condescending tone you have chosen. It's rude and disrespectful. I don't know who you mean by "Love" but it's clear I am wasting my time talking to someone who has little to offer beyond weak attacks and condescending remarks.


----------



## Digger Blue

I will add that if you are going to submit, you may want to use the blindfold, and allow him to hold your hands together with one hand. That way, if he faints or croaks, you are not tied up. Steven King did a book about that, creepy as hell. Oh, and the other thing. If you submit to him, you should see to it that he submits to you, too. Turn about is fair play. I agree with Pink about the power and control bit. When you start getting into submission and bondage, you are getting into the territory of S & M. You probably don't want to go there, and if he does, you might want to find a partner with a different idea of fun. 
Digger Blue


----------



## The13thGuest

pinkrasputin said:


> Keep in mind, submission is not consent in all cases. Some people fear for their lives when they submit. It all depends. This thread was meant to help people and was given by a domestic violence organization in order to educate the public. It has been incredibly helpful, even life saving for many people. These are warning signs for "abuse", not warning signs for s&m.
> 
> 
> I completely disagree with you that jealousy is a sign of love. But you may continue to think so in your relationships. No one is twisting your arm.
> 
> Abuse is about _power_ and _control_. Many abusers will display signs of jealousy in order to establish power and control over their partner. This is not love. The abuser's partner is merely an "object" to possess.
> 
> These are some signs to help people spot an abusive personality. If it helps you that is great, if it doesn't simply move on.
> 
> I feel like you are arguing just to hear yourself perhaps? Sadistic personality? Masochist? What is your point? Are you trying to confuse people because you do not believe there is such a thing as abusive relationships? What do you believe are some warning signs for those cases?
> 
> Is your motive here in making this post to really help people? Or was it to give yourself attention?
> 
> Well this is quite a condescending tone you have chosen. It's rude and disrespectful. I don't know who you mean by "Love" but it's clear I am wasting my time talking to someone who has little to offer beyond weak attacks and condescending remarks.


I'm not really a sadist or a masochist, however I know some people who are. 
I guess it really does depend on the people in the relationship to determine if it is abuse or a highly dominant and submissive. However, I think verbal or physical abuse is inexcusable..

And I have no idea why you got defensive over me calling you "Love" because honestly, I don't know who you are and I thought it was a term of endearment towards you as a person. I am in no way trying to be condescending or attacking, I have no doubt that you have more wisdom of the world as I am a teenager and haven't had too many experiences myself. But I honestly didn't mean to be offensive at all, I guess I was being inconsiderate when I posted because I seem to forget how people take things personal. I didn't mean any offense, I promise you that.

And I was here to maybe debate and elaborate on the issue, perhaps enlighten someone who generalizes jealousy.. But I in no way was trying to draw attention to myself, "trolling" or what ever they call it. I'm sorry to have offended you, and I didn't intend to be disrespectful.


----------



## Perpetual Iridescence

So, if warning signs 3, 4, 8, and 11 are going on in a relationship, should it be ended?


----------



## skycloud86

yourebffjill said:


> So, if warning signs 3, 4, 8, and 11 are going on in a relationship, should it be ended?


Yes, in my opinion it should be ended.


----------



## android654

skycloud86 said:


> Yes, in my opinion it should be ended.


Yeah, but 15 13 11 3 2 1 can be kinky.:laughing: If she does it right that is.


----------



## skycloud86

android654 said:


> Yeah, but 15 13 11 3 2 1 can be kinky.:laughing: If she does it right that is.


There's a huge difference between playful "abuse" and actual, serious abuse.


----------



## Sara Torailles

Why does this remind me of Twilight?

Seriously, I read some of the book and it's frightening what Edward does.


----------



## skycloud86

Torai said:


> Why does this remind me of Twilight?
> 
> Seriously, I read some of the book and it's frightening what Edward does.


Twilight was written by some sheltered, brainwashed Mormon who thinks that she's a good writer and that her misogynistic ramblings are somehow not just wish fulfillment using an obvious Mary Sue.


----------



## Akrasiel

lulz. I laugh so hard reading this.  My mom does 85% of these things.


----------



## VroomVroom

I'm amazed at how anyone can be confused by or needs to differentiate between kinky sex and an abusive situation. Obviously, those that are have not experienced either.


----------



## Perpetual Iridescence

pinkrasputin said:


> 'Does your partner not allow you to practice your morals/religious beliefs or culture/values?
> Do you feel that you have given up things that are important you?
> Does your partner minimize the importance of your feelings about sex?
> Does your partner force particular unwanted sex acts?
> 
> Does your partner continually criticize you, call you names?
> Does your partner make all decisions for you?
> 4.	Unrealistic Expectations: Abusive partners are dependent on relationships for all of their needs; this is not healthy. No relationship is perfect and no one person can realistically be there "all the time."
> 7.	Blames Other for Feelings: Abusers often do not understand or want to feel any negative emotions. When an abuser feels hurt, anger, or fear, they will want to find someone to blame to make the feeling go away.
> Signs: Says "you make me mad", "you're hurting me by not doing what I ask", and "I can't help being angry." Uses feelings to manipulate their partner.
> 8.	Hypersensitivity: Abusers can be extra sensitive and may explode when they suspect an attack.
> Signs: Easily insulted. Claims feeling "hurt" when really feels anger. Takes the slightest set back as personal attacks. Will "rant and rave" about the injustice of things that have happened, things that are really just part of living like being asked to help with chores.
> 11.	Verbal Abuse: Abuse is not only physical. Abusers will often criticize and demean their partners.
> Signs: Says cruel and hurtful things. Constantly degrades their partner. Curses. Belittles accomplishments. Says their partner is stupid and incapable of functioning without them. Very critical about everything.
> 13.	Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde: This is a reference to a fictional character that had both a "good" and "evil" side.
> Signs: Sudden changes in mood, a "roller coaster of emotions." Explosiveness. One-minute the abuser is nice and the next minute there is an explosion'


All of that would describe the way my boyfriend treats me. I tried to break up with him last Saturday, but he manipulated me into thinking that he deserved another chance and that I wouldn't be able to live without him, and no one would ever be able to be in a relationship with me. And now we're just 'taking a break'. I tried several times after the initial break up to break up with him again, but he keeps convincing me to keep dating him. The first two times, he got really upset and called me constantly, crying, and the last time, I texted him a breakup message to avoid it. Unfortunately, he kept emailing my brothers and texting my phone with threats about how I'd 'better not be serious'. Another text said that he deserved better than a text message after 6 months and he needed yet ANOTHER chance, so I gave it to him. And now I feel stuck and he keeps beating it into my head that nobody will love me as much as he does. He's on a school sports team with me, too, and in a club I'm in. So I can't really get away. After five months of his crap, I want out, but I can't get out. I'm only fifteen years old and I feel that I'm too young to have to deal with this. Can anyone advise me on how I can go about getting rid of this guy?
I'm sorry about the long post. I know you guys have better things to do than answer me, and most of you won't see this. But if you do happen to have the time and advice, please feel free to lend it to me. Thank you. ^_^


----------



## RyanJF

I don't know if this has already been said, but a lot of the people I've known who have reported being in abusive relationships have said that their partner tried to psychologically manipulate them, by means of threatening suicide in the case of a break-up, or proposing that they some day get married in the shadow of a large argument. Those are just two examples, but it seems to be a pretty common behavior. 

I suppose that could be outright classified as "psychological abuse", but this thread seemed to have been more focused on relationships that turn violent, more than anything else. 

Anyway, nice job with the thread. Figured I'd offer my two cents worth.


----------



## SilverMoon

is it typical of an abuser to make their partner feel like its their fault and they deserve to be treated that way?


----------



## MuChApArAdOx

SilverMoon said:


> is it typical of an abuser to make their partner feel like its their fault and they deserve to be treated that way?


Yes, that would be very typical of an abuser.


----------



## Shallott

From some random internet person: I pray that you are in a better place now.


----------



## Shallott

noosabar said:


> I have been the perpetrator of abuse, towards my partner, friends and colleagues. I had an obnoxious facade of confidence, looking for conflict in every facet of my life, and every corner I turned I found what I was looking for. It was about control, controling the world around me. It made me grit my teeth, clench my fists, and look for the next target.
> Inside ther was something wrong, terribly wrong, I knew that, I didn't know what it was so I just kept doing what I knew, thinking once I had superiority, I could revel in my coquests and all would be well, totally blind to the truth, burnining bridges, killing my lifeline, destroying myself. Behind the facade there was a spiral of insecurity, if no one would look at me Id make them see.
> I had pushed all my friends away, every last one, torching the passage as I went. My partner of 11 years stood quietly by my side, I cant begin to imagine the pain she would have been in, yet she endured. She loved me so much and I was totally blind to it. I was out of control. I wanted to kill people. When she was the only one standing I turned my energies on her, emotionally striping her to pieces, breaking the very soul of the person who only ever showed me unconditional love. She left me on my birthday, very apt. It hurt me more than anyone ever could. It was also the greatest gift anyone could ever give. It forced me to take fucking long hard look at myself, no one else would, every last person who was in my life was gone. To this day Im too ashamed to contact her, the damage is too great.
> I can describe how things happened, I can't begin to comprehend what I was thinking, It makes me sick. It was something building within me from a young age and it climaxed 4 years ago. I have since been totally humbled by life, It has slapped me down I ways I could never dream. Its not easy now, but its easier than being angry and abusive. It hurts to think, that person was me.
> All my relationships since have been the reverse scenario, opening my eyes further to what it was like to live on the end of such awfull contempt and manipulation, and feeling the pain that abounds.
> I see most of the points listed as integral parts to my quest for control. I think I have changed dramatically, Im not sure if I should be the judge of that.


OMGosh. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. Thank you for having the courage to admit to your faults and mistakes, and striving to change. I was abused, and my abuser never has and never will say sorry. This reminds me that there are good people out there.


----------



## Lilsnowy

*"No. No more chances."*



yourebffjill said:


> All of that would describe the way my boyfriend treats me. I tried to break up with him last Saturday, but he manipulated me into thinking that he deserved another chance and that I wouldn't be able to live without him, and no one would ever be able to be in a relationship with me. And now we're just 'taking a break'. I tried several times after the initial break up to break up with him again, but he keeps convincing me to keep dating him. The first two times, he got really upset and called me constantly, crying, and the last time, I texted him a breakup message to avoid it. Unfortunately, he kept emailing my brothers and texting my phone with threats about how I'd 'better not be serious'. Another text said that he deserved better than a text message after 6 months and he needed yet ANOTHER chance, so I gave it to him. And now I feel stuck and he keeps beating it into my head that nobody will love me as much as he does. He's on a school sports team with me, too, and in a club I'm in. So I can't really get away. After five months of his crap, I want out, but I can't get out. I'm only fifteen years old and I feel that I'm too young to have to deal with this. Can anyone advise me on how I can go about getting rid of this guy?
> I'm sorry about the long post. I know you guys have better things to do than answer me, and most of you won't see this. But if you do happen to have the time and advice, please feel free to lend it to me. Thank you. ^_^


yourbffjill, this will seem very direct and it's because I'm passionate about this and hope to help you. If you are really done, you are done. There will be no more talking, no more txts and no more chances. You will change your number and your brothers, friends and anyone else who cares about you, will block him. If you are fearful he will hurt you or your family, or do something dangerous, you should enlist the aid of teachers, your parents, or even the police if needed, to let them know what you have been dealing with and what kind of help you need. No one at any age should date someone they don't trust. If he threatens suicide, call HIS parents and also tell them he is not to call you again. 

And guaranteed: Lots of people will love you more than he does. A person who has to control you DOES NOT love you. He has power over you. He loves that you give him the feeling of control. He loves that he feels less fear when you don't have anything except him. He loves the feeling he gets when he wins. Those will not change and in fact, will escalate over time. 

Start practicing: *No more chances.* tell him you are breaking up and that's it. No more chances, and no further contact from him _ever._ Not to your friends or family and no more talking to you in school or on the team unless it is absolutely necessary and with respect. If he txts your family phone or you again, block him, if you haven't already.

One thing you could say is: "No. No more chances," and walk away after you say it, without explaining _anything_. Role play with your best friend playing 'his' part, bringing up all the stuff he uses on you and say, "No. No more chances," every time. "No. No more chances." To someone who is desperate or emotionally abusive, 'explaining' is a trap he likes to get you into so he can feel powerful. When he talks to you in the group in school, say, "It's over. No more talking. If you don't walk away from me, I'm going to get help." 

You are NOT obligated to listen to him cry. He should have other people in his life to cry to when you break up with him. That's just a way to manipulate you into feeling like you're heartless to have done this 'to' him. Even if he were not controlling, even if you just didn't want to date him anymore because you weren't attracted, you do not have to listen to him cry and you do not have to give him more chances. Why would he want to be with a girl who doesn't want to be with him? 

So... you have to decide if you are really, finally, truly DONE.


----------



## SilentScream

I've come to PerC and this thread 2 years too late ... I would've been able to better understand that all of my wife's 'expectations' from me were actually a form of abuse ... Weird .. being a man, it never even occured to me that I could actually be the 'victim' (and I really hate that word from me) .. I was always under the impression that because I was not able to give her everything she wanted, I was the one abusing her.

I could highlight and bold the OP and it will be almost entirely bolded, with a few things extra. 

But the thing is ... now that the relationship is over (she was the one who left me because she blamed my disability for her unhappiness) - I still have a lingering desire to go back to her .. and I also now know that this is a common response of people who've been conditioned into accepting 'abuse' as the only acceptable way to live .. 

But even then, what do I do? There's just no concept of men being abused and having any kind of emotional instabilities because of it (at least not in my family, friends and social circle - if I even mention it, I get stares and get ridiculed) .. how am I supposed to cope when the world expects me to still be a perfect man despite the fact that inside I'm still hurting a lot.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Jawz said:


> I've come to PerC and this thread 2 years too late ... I would've been able to better understand that all of my wife's 'expectations' from me were actually a form of abuse ... Weird .. being a man, it never even occured to me that I could actually be the 'victim' (and I really hate that word from me) .. I was always under the impression that because I was not able to give her everything she wanted, I was the one abusing her.
> 
> I could highlight and bold the OP and it will be almost entirely bolded, with a few things extra.
> 
> But the thing is ... now that the relationship is over (she was the one who left me because she blamed my disability for her unhappiness) - I still have a lingering desire to go back to her .. and I also now know that this is a common response of people who've been conditioned into accepting 'abuse' as the only acceptable way to live ..
> 
> But even then, what do I do? There's just no concept of men being abused and having any kind of emotional instabilities because of it (at least not in my family, friends and social circle - if I even mention it, I get stares and get ridiculed) .. how am I supposed to cope when the world expects me to still be a perfect man despite the fact that inside I'm still hurting a lot.


Jawz, emotional abuse is different from having different personalities. Emotional abuse is about control and insecurity, and throws you off balance. It never makes sense. A lot of emotional abuse is insidious and that's why it has such an affect on us. The messages the abuser sends by his/her behavior and words (or lack of words) slip into our minds undetected, until we start to believe we are failures, worthless, stupid, or don't even exist. It changes our reality sometimes.

It's possible for anyone to say something abusive in a moment of anger, but a loving person will show --and feel-- heartfelt remorse and will be determined not to do it again. An abusive person will basically believe he/she is justified and will blame you.

I think the desire to return to the person is normal because you long for the love without the abuse, but also because your self-concept has been damaged. Do you have a good friend, a pastor, or a professional counselor who can listen to you and support you and help you gain some perspective? That is important. Someone who takes you seriously and takes the problem very seriously. 

An abusive personality must have a deep desire to change and will move mountains to get whatever help is needed to change. Short of that, it's not likely to be lasting.

A good book I would recommend to anyone who has been a victim of verbal or emotional abuse: Amazon.com: The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize It and How to Respond (0045079005822): Patricia Evans: Books

I hope you are healing and have loving people in your life who can affirm your strengths and who can bless you with love and appropriate affection.


----------



## Perpetual Iridescence

Lilsnowy said:


> yourbffjill, this will seem very direct and it's because I'm passionate about this and hope to help you. If you are really done, you are done. There will be no more talking, no more txts and no more chances. You will change your number and your brothers, friends and anyone else who cares about you, will block him. If you are fearful he will hurt you or your family, or do something dangerous, you should enlist the aid of teachers, your parents, or even the police if needed, to let them know what you have been dealing with and what kind of help you need. No one at any age should date someone they don't trust. If he threatens suicide, call HIS parents and also tell them he is not to call you again.
> 
> And guaranteed: Lots of people will love you more than he does. A person who has to control you DOES NOT love you. He has power over you. He loves that you give him the feeling of control. He loves that he feels less fear when you don't have anything except him. He loves the feeling he gets when he wins. Those will not change and in fact, will escalate over time.
> 
> Start practicing: *No more chances.* tell him you are breaking up and that's it. No more chances, and no further contact from him _ever._ Not to your friends or family and no more talking to you in school or on the team unless it is absolutely necessary and with respect. If he txts your family phone or you again, block him, if you haven't already.
> 
> One thing you could say is: "No. No more chances," and walk away after you say it, without explaining _anything_. Role play with your best friend playing 'his' part, bringing up all the stuff he uses on you and say, "No. No more chances," every time. "No. No more chances." To someone who is desperate or emotionally abusive, 'explaining' is a trap he likes to get you into so he can feel powerful. When he talks to you in the group in school, say, "It's over. No more talking. If you don't walk away from me, I'm going to get help."
> 
> You are NOT obligated to listen to him cry. He should have other people in his life to cry to when you break up with him. That's just a way to manipulate you into feeling like you're heartless to have done this 'to' him. Even if he were not controlling, even if you just didn't want to date him anymore because you weren't attracted, you do not have to listen to him cry and you do not have to give him more chances. Why would he want to be with a girl who doesn't want to be with him?
> 
> So... you have to decide if you are really, finally, truly DONE.


Okey dokes, well thank you. ^_^ I did take your advice and I'm a lot happier now. I made the breakup final right after you posted that. Though in my mind, I was already done with the guy before I finally broke up with him again. Two weeks after the second time I broke up with the jerk, I started dating a guy who had been a good friend of mine for two years and He has been treating me well, which is something to get used to for sure. It's been nearly three weeks, which I know isn't that long, and he has not done a single abusive thing. ^_^ Though I have mostly gotten over the emotional stress that the other guy caused and trust my new boyfriend fully, I still try really hard to watch what I say, out of habit. I didnt realize this when I broke up with the jerk, but whenever I talked to him, I had to be extremely careful about what I said so he wouldn't yell at me and threaten to leave(he started doing that when I needed a friend the most and he knew that he had forced me to rely on him. My mom had a heart attack, my dad had two respective strokes, my grades failed, my brother got hospitalized in an RTF, my other brother was diagnosed with severe depression, and my dog died of cancer over the course of three months.). Now, I still get this little fleeting feeling that people are going to yell at me, insult me, and threaten me if I give an opinion. I'm wondering if you might possibly have any advice on what to do about that?
Thanks


----------



## musician gal

I'd def add: If he/she does NOT have a JOB and hasn't been able to keep one for more than 6 months! 
if he/she still talks about an "ex" and is not over her/him
if he/she still lives with mom/dad and in their 30's
if they use drugs
if they have to have a drink first thing in the morning
if they are highly selfish and not a "giver" and a total "taker"
if they are highly critical and put you and others down constantly
*look at how they treat their parents like crap and talk negatively about them or other family members
*pay attention to abuse from their childhood...if they were abused...they are more than likely going to also abuse
*pay attention to their family and if the parents come from abuse


----------



## Sheppard

Lilsnowy said:


> Jawz, emotional abuse is different from having different personalities. Emotional abuse is about control and insecurity, and throws you off balance. It never makes sense. A lot of emotional abuse is insidious and that's why it has such an affect on us. The messages the abuser sends by his/her behavior and words (or lack of words) slip into our minds undetected, until we start to believe we are failures, worthless, stupid, or don't even exist. It changes our reality sometimes.


So very, very, very, very, very, very true :frustrating:

One example that comes to mind, and I've been chewing on for the last day or so.

I was invited as the guest of honor to her daughters wedding (who was a year older than myself). I had a great night, I danced, I talked to people, I joked, I told stories. It was great. I felt _alive_. First time in a long time.

We got back home. According to her I closed the shower curtain not carefully enough. Which was utter nonesense. But, back then, I was still trying to engage her in an objective reality. The rage she had completely escalated. I had ruined the most important day of her life. FOREVER, by defending myself against her claims of my stupidity, carelessness, selfishness.

And she brought this up, constantly, over the years, as an example for how I am evil and selfish. I had ruined the most important day of her life. Guilt. A sea of it, she was doing her best to drown me in it, to keep me attached. If I felt guilty for her misery, then how could I possibly add to it by leaving her. 

God... 

Everything I thought about myself was wrong. Everything I thought about relationships was wrong. Everything I thought about love was wrong. Everything I thought about sex was wrong. I was lost, completely, living in an emotional reality where I was worthless, everything was my fault, I would never be able to accomplish anything. A bad person. Unworthy of what little sympathy she did chose to give now and then, and doomed to be alone, forever, should I leave.

She pushed too far after I managed to run for it, BUT, still believing we could be friends. The emotional manipulation reached such a degree that I might have ended up killing myself, too. Just like her 2 husbands before me.

When she told me that the last time we had sex, she got pregnant, and then told me that the baby died after birth, and she had kept this secret because she wanted to protect me, to let me go, but now needed my support to help her through the pain... what she didn't expect was the intensity of my reaction.

That one moment was the happiest moment in my entire life. Finding out I was a father. Because in that one moment, I experienced love for the first time. I loved this child of mine, that I didn't know, unconditionally. Then the news that it had died, and I was never going to see it, never going to hold it, and be able to care for it, to love it. That killed me. 

I broke into a million pieces. Associating that pain with her, I was able to, finally, finally, finally, after ten years of hell, to doorslam her. 

Now I have to come to terms with the fact that I feel deep love and loss for someone who never existed. Feelings that are not going away. But, that's ok... because without them, without this sample of what love can be... who knows what would have happened to me. 

The best thing that has happened to me since then is finding out that there are other people who went through similar things. Other men who have been the victim of abuse. Other men who made it, rebuild the ruins of their lives. That inspires me. I feel no shame. I'm done with that. I just want to embrace hope.


----------



## SilentScream

Sheppard said:


> So very, very, very, very, very, very true :frustrating:
> 
> One example that comes to mind, and I've been chewing on for the last day or so.
> 
> I was invited as the guest of honor to her daughters wedding (who was a year older than myself). I had a great night, I danced, I talked to people, I joked, I told stories. It was great. I felt _alive_. First time in a long time.
> 
> We got back home. According to her I closed the shower curtain not carefully enough. Which was utter nonesense. But, back then, I was still trying to engage her in an objective reality. The rage she had completely escalated. I had ruined the most important day of her life. FOREVER, by defending myself against her claims of my stupidity, carelessness, selfishness.


That was just one of the ways I was abused. Everytime I would go to a party, with her family or my friends or whatever. She would make it a point to fight about it at home - or tell me that I did something wrong .. in fact, she would make sure she told me that her family thought that something I did or said was stupid/careless/hurt someone or whatever .. when in fact I would think that I was the perfect gentleman. And then she would repeat the same thing over and over again everytime we used to have the slightest argument. 

Her pet was also that supposedly my family and I ruined her 'engagement'. I won't go into details --- but she must have repeated that event in a negative light at least 100 times over 7.5 years. It was also supposed to me my greatest day - but she turned it into my most hated. And if that wasn't abuse, then I don't know what is.


----------



## Sheppard

It is. Nothing else but. Anyone who tells you otherwise just made it onto my personal shitlist <3


----------



## Lilsnowy

yourebffjill said:


> Okey dokes, well thank you. ^_^ I did take your advice and I'm a lot happier now. I made the breakup final right after you posted that. Though in my mind, I was already done with the guy before I finally broke up with him again. Two weeks after the second time I broke up with the jerk, I started dating a guy who had been a good friend of mine for two years and He has been treating me well, which is something to get used to for sure. It's been nearly three weeks, which I know isn't that long, and he has not done a single abusive thing. ^_^ Though I have mostly gotten over the emotional stress that the other guy caused and trust my new boyfriend fully, I still try really hard to watch what I say, out of habit. I didnt realize this when I broke up with the jerk, but whenever I talked to him, I had to be extremely careful about what I said so he wouldn't yell at me and threaten to leave(he started doing that when I needed a friend the most and he knew that he had forced me to rely on him. My mom had a heart attack, my dad had two respective strokes, my grades failed, my brother got hospitalized in an RTF, my other brother was diagnosed with severe depression, and my dog died of cancer over the course of three months.). Now, I still get this little fleeting feeling that people are going to yell at me, insult me, and threaten me if I give an opinion. I'm wondering if you might possibly have any advice on what to do about that?
> Thanks


I'm happy to hear you broke up with him and are giving someone else a chance. That's good; your trust in humans isn't completely shattered. As far as the worries and guardedness about sharing your opinions and yourself, give it time. It can take a long time to feel comfortable again. If you keep reality in mind that people won't always agree with you, you won't feel so stressed if someone doesn't like your opinion. Abuse however, anything that makes you feel demeaned or disrespected is unacceptable. A good line to be prepared with if needed is, " Hey, I don't mind that you don't agree, but I don't disrespect me." (Or, "I don't like your tone.") This requires guts, especially if you're used to making others feel comfortable even when they are being jerks. 

Share your opinions with others; share your true self with safe people for awhile. I learned how to say no on safe people, people I didn't have an intimate connection with. It was like practice for the ones that counted.

How is your family? You have been through severe stress. I hope they are healing.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Jawz said:


> That was just one of the ways I was abused. Everytime I would go to a party, with her family or my friends or whatever. She would make it a point to fight about it at home - or tell me that I did something wrong .. in fact, she would make sure she told me that her family thought that something I did or said was stupid/careless/hurt someone or whatever .. when in fact I would think that I was the perfect gentleman. And then she would repeat the same thing over and over again everytime we used to have the slightest argument.
> 
> Her pet was also that supposedly my family and I ruined her 'engagement'. I won't go into details --- but she must have repeated that event in a negative light at least 100 times over 7.5 years. It was also supposed to me my greatest day - but she turned it into my most hated. And if that wasn't abuse, then I don't know what is.


Your best days are often the ones when you are targeted the most.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Sheppard said:


> So very, very, very, very, very, very true :frustrating:
> 
> One example that comes to mind, and I've been chewing on for the last day or so.
> 
> I was invited as the guest of honor to her daughters wedding (who was a year older than myself). I had a great night, I danced, I talked to people, I joked, I told stories. It was great. I felt _alive_. First time in a long time.
> 
> We got back home. According to her I closed the shower curtain not carefully enough. Which was utter nonesense. But, back then, I was still trying to engage her in an objective reality. The rage she had completely escalated. I had ruined the most important day of her life. FOREVER, by defending myself against her claims of my stupidity, carelessness, selfishness.
> 
> And she brought this up, constantly, over the years, as an example for how I am evil and selfish. I had ruined the most important day of her life. Guilt. A sea of it, she was doing her best to drown me in it, to keep me attached. If I felt guilty for her misery, then how could I possibly add to it by leaving her.
> 
> God...
> 
> Everything I thought about myself was wrong. Everything I thought about relationships was wrong. Everything I thought about love was wrong. Everything I thought about sex was wrong. I was lost, completely, living in an emotional reality where I was worthless, everything was my fault, I would never be able to accomplish anything. A bad person. Unworthy of what little sympathy she did chose to give now and then, and doomed to be alone, forever, should I leave.
> 
> She pushed too far after I managed to run for it, BUT, still believing we could be friends. The emotional manipulation reached such a degree that I might have ended up killing myself, too. Just like her 2 husbands before me.
> 
> When she told me that the last time we had sex, she got pregnant, and then told me that the baby died after birth, and she had kept this secret because she wanted to protect me, to let me go, but now needed my support to help her through the pain... what she didn't expect was the intensity of my reaction.
> 
> That one moment was the happiest moment in my entire life. Finding out I was a father. Because in that one moment, I experienced love for the first time. I loved this child of mine, that I didn't know, unconditionally. Then the news that it had died, and I was never going to see it, never going to hold it, and be able to care for it, to love it. That killed me.
> 
> I broke into a million pieces. Associating that pain with her, I was able to, finally, finally, finally, after ten years of hell, to doorslam her.
> 
> Now I have to come to terms with the fact that I feel deep love and loss for someone who never existed. Feelings that are not going away. But, that's ok... because without them, without this sample of what love can be... who knows what would have happened to me.
> 
> The best thing that has happened to me since then is finding out that there are other people who went through similar things. Other men who have been the victim of abuse. Other men who made it, rebuild the ruins of their lives. That inspires me. I feel no shame. I'm done with that. I just want to embrace hope.


The loss of a child, whether known or not is a huge loss. May I suggest something as a way to remember your baby? Write a poem or plant a tree in your baby's memory. You can name your baby whatever you want if you haven't already, and have that tree or poem as a lasting marker. I can feel your pain at being denied the opportunity to love even for the short time your baby lived.

Yes, embrace hope. Hope is a gift.


----------



## Sheppard

Even if the baby never existed at all? I've come to terms with it, I've already grieved my grief and lost my loss. If there is still pain there, than I'm mostly unaware of it. Until, you know, fathers day or some such triggers. The consequence of emotional manipulation are deeply complex, destructive, long lasting, quite confusing, and above all, real. But,I believe, not permanent.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Sheppard said:


> Even if the baby never existed at all? I've come to terms with it, I've already grieved my grief and lost my loss. If there is still pain there, than I'm mostly unaware of it. Until, you know, fathers day or some such triggers. The consequence of emotional manipulation are deeply complex, destructive, long lasting, quite confusing, and above all, real. But,I believe, not permanent.


If a real baby was born, than he or she did exist and I would mourn that big time. If you've already grieved the loss and come to terms, than doing something in your baby's memory may not be helpful. It's just a suggestion. I agree with you on the very real and complicated effects of emotional abuse. 

Luckily we can heal and still have hope. We can love and treat others with kindness and compassion.


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## lirulin

musician gal said:


> *pay attention to abuse from their childhood...if they were abused...they are more than likely going to also abuse


Not _more_ than likely. The latest stats I saw were about 20%. It's a possibility, but the majority don't end up as abusers.
It's true that most people from abusive families have some unhealthy patterns or expectations, but that is just as, if not _more_ likely, to get them abused again rather than making them a perpetrator.


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## anotherjenny

Thank you for posting this. I'm a healthy individual (confident, no past emotional/physical abuse, content with life, etc) and even I was blind to some of these warning signs in a guy I dated. 

In my experience... pay extra special attention to a guy with low confidence. Is he just shy? Inexperienced? Or is his lack of confidence affecting his quality of life? 

Ex: I was once going to go out dancing with an ex, and when he came over and saw the dress I was wearing (nothing special, just a casual jersey affair) he got angry that I looked nice and then angry at himself that "life" was somehow against him that he didn't grow up rich to have nice clothes... then he demanded that we run to a Meijer to buy him a nicer shirt.

Not just a little bit of low self-esteem about looks. A lotta bit of BATSHIT CRAAAZY.


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## Lilsnowy

anotherjenny said:


> Thank you for posting this. I'm a healthy individual (confident, no past emotional/physical abuse, content with life, etc) *and even I *was blind to some of these warning signs in a guy I dated.


*Especially* a healthy individual can be blind to warning signs of abuse. If you have no past experience with abuse or no family member who is suffering, it's very possible you will rationalize the signs or give the person the benefit of the doubt. Subtle, insidious abuse and manipulation can destroy the most healthy person's hope and self esteem.


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## AlijahEatsBabies

I was right all along, he does abuse me, he does.. he really does..i wish he'd see it.


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## mushr00m

Thanks for sharing your list. Unfortunatly, much of that list has happened to me or I have witnessed.


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## Modifier

very useful post


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## Lilsnowy

AlijahEatsBabies said:


> I was right all along, he does abuse me, he does.. he really does..i wish he'd see it.


You see it; that's the important thing. The question is, now that you do, what do you do?


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## Anythingisfine

I would like to thank the OP for this thread, it's a shame though that most people don't realize that they are being abused until it is too late. :sad:


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## white-knuckle

Thanks for this article. It's hard to know that you're in an abusive relationship, when you're in one, especially if you've experienced abuse from your parents. It can be hard to know what healthy is. I experienced verbal abuse, forced sex even when I was physically kicking, or crying. I was isolated from friends and family. He didn't like anybody I cared about. 

I didn't get to choose out the food I wanted, he never cleaned once in five years, he was a slob, showered about once a week. He was always home too. The most I got was a walk or mo-ped ride. He used to humiliate me. He looked like a homeless man and got into fights at the grocery store.

My parents were very neglectful emotionally and physically. My mother also is messed up but thinks she has all the right answers, which is the worst kind of messed up. They lived in the middle of nowhere and could be of no support to me. If I went home I had to go to church. So basically it was really tough.

I was humiliated so I hid it. I covered for him. Finally I met someone strong and with a kind heart. He was "friends" with my bf before he got to know me. He helped me out of there. I cry because I am not used to being treated so well. He takes two showers a day. He cleans, cooks, and is organized. I am so lucky I met him. 

Abuse is real. When it gets mixed up with daily life its hard. The person ruins your support system. But there might be somebody out there you can trust. Do what you can to get out as soon as possible. And dont worry about thier welfare. Just let em go.


----------



## Cleo

Calling too much. No matter why they are pathetic for doing it, it still shows a lack of respect and boundaries.


----------



## Luke

The cycle of abuse:


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## Recluscientist

I only take one shower a day . . . guess I need to up that?

I'm just getting out of a relationship with a woman who was abusive. Having almost NO background in psychology, I first decided that she must have borderline personality disorder (minus the suicidal ideation). Then I read Myers-Briggs work, and decided that she was ESFP, while I was INTJ. Maybe that explained it? But now, I think that she was just abusive. I think her home-life may have been abusive (though she won't admit that). She also has puritanical Christian views from a pentecostal church and family, and seems deeply convicted by this. It's too bad that there seems to be no hope for her since she had so many amazing traits. I even enjoyed the abusive sex and biting - maybe easier for a man to handle than a woman. 

Typical of an abusive relationship, she usually tried to convince me that I was the one who had insulted and belittled her, rather than the other way around!


----------



## kiskadee

musician gal said:


> I'd def add: If he/she does NOT have a JOB and hasn't been able to keep one for more than 6 months!
> if he/she still talks about an "ex" and is not over her/him
> if he/she still lives with mom/dad and in their 30's
> if they use drugs
> if they have to have a drink first thing in the morning
> if they are highly selfish and not a "giver" and a total "taker"
> if they are highly critical and put you and others down constantly
> *look at how they treat their parents like crap and talk negatively about them or other family members
> *pay attention to abuse from their childhood...if they were abused...they are more than likely going to also abuse
> *pay attention to their family and if the parents come from abuse


I think you're looking for the relationship red flags thread. Those are all bad, but...living with their parents is abuse? Seriously?


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## Ann Kane

I just got out of an abusive marraige. haven't had the courage to read through this forum yet...too much darkness


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## pinkrasputin

zelder said:


> Maybe this has already been discussed (I don't want to read through the whole thread) but I think some of these signs of abuse are glaring red flags while others are quite tenuous. Obvious red flags would be things like #14 and #15. On the other hand point #1 I think is a weak sign. Feelings of jealousy and insecurity are ubiquitous, especially among younger and more inexperienced people with shy personalities. For example I know a very nice INFJ girl who couldn't tolerate her extroverted boyfriends wanting to date other girls while dating her too. She was extremely jealous and insecure. She ended up happily married and is not the least bit abusive. In fact she's so jealous that she told her husband that if he died first he can't get remarried!! It's kind of weird but she's not abusive.
> 
> Fast moving relationships I can see being problematic but it's also a weak sign. For every abusive relationship that moved fast you could find a happy healthy relationship that also moved fast. Personally, I think you can get a really accurate feel for a person's moral character within 6 months or less. More especially if you are keeping your head out of the clouds by abstaining from sex until you are ready for commitment.
> 
> That's my 2cents. Interesting and good op. Thanks.


Okay, but if you want to be on the safe side, it is best to know a person before getting married, living with them, or having their baby. Of course you could do all these things and move fast, and MAYBE your person turns out to be genuine. But it is a little bit like playing russian roulette. But even then, I don't believe acting on impulse is a good way to go for either people- abusive relationship or not.

Even outside an abusive relationship, jealousy in a partner is a huge turn-off for me because it stems from insecurity. It is a character defect. You may not be an abuser if you're jealous but it is still not the healthiest thing in the world and a person should try to gain some self esteem if they have the issue. And it's still not a sign love, even outside an abusive relationship. Love takes trust. 

However, what the article is specifically addressing are those who are in relationships who think their partner's jealousy is love and who may or may not be in an abusive relationship. There are people who do not yet realize jealousy is not love. And in abusive relationships, the jealousy is a form of control. The *control and power* is what we are trying to identify in a potentially abusive relationship. Before the awareness, a victim in an abusive relationship may think "Oh, he calls me all the time and wants to know who I am with because he loves me." Or they think "He gave me a cell phone to keep an eye on me because he loves me." Or "He doesn't like for me to wear this because it attracts men. He says this because he loves me." Or "She hit me because I was talking to some other girl. But that's just because she loves me." That type of stuff. Those are some serious signs of power and control. In an abusive relationship, the victim is merely an object for the abuser to own. It is not love.


----------



## zelder

I don't see it as Russian roulette but rather a more sure way to find a successful mate. My subculture has an extremely low divorce rate of only 6% but it's probably the overall value and support system not just saving sex for marriage aspect

I agree that jealousy is not love. However, love and trust will cause jealousy to dissipate in time. Insecure people are insecure because they don't have love and maybe they have never had it. I can see why it's a turn off though.


----------



## voicetrocity

I just want to say I have absolutely no qualms with this thread. The fact that these are just "Warning Signs" is well stated with appropriate examples of each. I was emotionally and verbally abused; and my abuser exemplified about 70% of these qualities to varying degrees. 

I think it's so important to address these issues. It's so easy to say that any one of these "signs" could just be related to insecurity or other personality traits *DO NOT FALL INTO THIS TRAP*. No, not everyone who is jealous is going to outright hit someone and sure, there are many people who have been in whirlwind relationships and are happy; but a lot of these are traits that become more prevalent and unhealthy as the relationship goes on. In my opinion; seeing one of these traits and ignoring them, is as bad as seeing a cancerous looking spot on your skin and ignoring it. Sure, it might not turn out to be cancerous. But, ultimately, it's up to the person to decide if they'd rather have that knowledge right away, as opposed to waiting until things are out of hand and harder to recover from

Thank you so much for posting this.


----------



## ilphithra

I have been meaning to post here for a while and finally found the head and time to do so. 

While this thread is quite useful to look for permanent signs of abuse, these signs can't be taken "just like that" and be used alone to decide if a relationship is abusive or not. Allow me to give a few examples out of my own relationship.
*Anything that isn't mentioned hasn't happened in any degree.*



pinkrasputin said:


> *1. Jealousy:* At the beginning of a relationship, an abuser will say that jealousy is a sign of love. Jealousy has nothing to do with love. It's a sign of insecurity and possessiveness.
> Signs: Complains of how much time is spent with others. Frequent phone calls throughout the day.


*Do take into account this was a long distance relationship for almost 2 years.*
I had this going for a bit the when relationship with my SO was still fresh and we were afraid of losing each other. It's not always intended abuse. It completely faded out over time though, especially after we started living together.



pinkrasputin said:


> *2. Controlling Behavior: *At the onset of the relationship, the abuser will say that this behavior is because of concern for their partner's safety, or to guide them in good decision-making and time management.
> Signs: Anger if the partner is "late" coming back from the store or an appointment.


I've almost lost my SO twice: once in a car crash, once in a train crash... so I become very frightened if she's suddenly late and I can't reach her and I may vent out for a couple of minutes but nothing severe. Not so much control but pure fear of losing the woman I love. She almost lost me a couple of times as well so we're pretty much paranoid about each other in this regard.



pinkrasputin said:


> *3. Fast Moving Relationships:* Many domestic violence survivors dated or knew their abuser for less than six months before they were engaged or started living together.
> Signs: ------


It took 1 year before we even met in person, only had our first intimate moment 6 months after that first encounter, started living together 1 year later. No rushing here.



pinkrasputin said:


> *5. Isolation*: The abuser tries to cut-off resources in effort to remove opportunities for escape and systems of support. Without supportive friends with which to "trouble talk" about relationships, it can be hard to recognize signs of abuse. Resources include work or school, transportation, family and friends.
> Signs: ------


Huh... no... she has all the friends she wants and her family floats around as much as they want (while I hide in some room to have some peace... well... I'm an INTJ... so sue me... xP)



pinkrasputin said:


> *6. Blames Others for Problems:* Abusers do not take responsibility for any negative situation; instead they will find someone else or some external factor to blame for the problem.
> Signs: ----


No... in fact she has to keep me from *exploding at my own mistakes*.



pinkrasputin said:


> *11. Verbal Abuse*: Abuse is not only physical. Abusers will often criticize and demean their partners.
> Signs: Says cruel and hurtful things. Curses. Very critical about everything.


So... how many of us never hurled crap out of their mouths in a fight? How many of us never cursed in their lives?
We don't give a hoot about what we say in a fight because it's simply not how we really feel.

As for being critical... I'm like that even with myself... am I abusing myself?



pinkrasputin said:


> *13. Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde:* This is a reference to a fictional character that had both a "good" and "evil" side.
> Signs: Sudden changes in mood, a "roller coaster of emotions." Explosiveness. One-minute the abuser is nice and the next minute there is an explosion.


I have bipolar and situations like this may happen for absolutely no reason. Are all bipolars abusive now?



pinkrasputin said:


> *16. Breaking or Striking Objects:* Used as a punishment, to terrorize and threaten the partner into submission.
> Signs: Beats on tables with fists. Throws objects near their partner.


On this, we're both guilty. It happened a couple of times at a point in our lives when we were under extreme stress (one step away of being homeless and basically starving). We just exploded...


So... the point of this is to illustrate that although these may be signs of abuse, it's not always as such. When determining if one is being subjected to abuse or not, there are factors that must be taken into account. 
No relationship is a sea of hearts and flowers where everything is peachy and dreamy and if we were to just take these signs into account, then basically everyone is in an abusive relationship.


----------



## Lilsnowy

ilphithra said:


> I have been meaning to post here for a while and finally found the head and time to do so.
> 
> While this thread is quite useful to look for permanent signs of abuse, these signs can't be taken "just like that" and be used alone to decide if a relationship is abusive or not. Allow me to give a few examples out of my own relationship.
> *Anything that isn't mentioned hasn't happened in any degree.*
> 
> 
> *Do take into account this was a long distance relationship for almost 2 years.*
> I had this going for a bit the when relationship with my SO was still fresh and we were afraid of losing each other. It's not always intended abuse. It completely faded out over time though, especially after we started living together.
> 
> 
> I've almost lost my SO twice: once in a car crash, once in a train crash... so I become very frightened if she's suddenly late and I can't reach her and I may vent out for a couple of minutes but nothing severe. Not so much control but pure fear of losing the woman I love. She almost lost me a couple of times as well so we're pretty much paranoid about each other in this regard.
> 
> 
> It took 1 year before we even met in person, only had our first intimate moment 6 months after that first encounter, started living together 1 year later. No rushing here.
> 
> 
> Huh... no... she has all the friends she wants and her family floats around as much as they want (while I hide in some room to have some peace... well... I'm an INTJ... so sue me... xP)
> 
> 
> No... in fact she has to keep me from *exploding at my own mistakes*.
> 
> 
> So... how many of us never hurled crap out of their mouths in a fight? How many of us never cursed in their lives?
> We don't give a hoot about what we say in a fight because it's simply not how we really feel.
> 
> As for being critical... I'm like that even with myself... am I abusing myself?
> 
> 
> I have bipolar and situations like this may happen for absolutely no reason. Are all bipolars abusive now?
> 
> 
> On this, we're both guilty. It happened a couple of times at a point in our lives when we were under extreme stress (one step away of being homeless and basically starving). We just exploded...
> 
> 
> So... the point of this is to illustrate that although these may be signs of abuse, it's not always as such. When determining if one is being subjected to abuse or not, there are factors that must be taken into account.
> No relationship is a sea of hearts and flowers where everything is peachy and dreamy and if we were to just take these signs into account, then basically everyone is in an abusive relationship.


This thread is for considering possible warning signs for abuse. Of course, relationships can have problems, or mistakes in judgement. There can be harsh words, or extenuating circumstances which can change the dynamic. However, in an abusive relationship, the victim's world gets smaller. So does the ability to think well of herself, and to have hope in the 'good.'

Isolation will increase. "Misunderstandings" will escalate over time, and several or even all of these red flags probably went unnoticed early on.

The vast majority of victims never treat their abusers the way they are treated. If it reaches the point that the victim dishes it out, she's probably at the point of recognizing abuse and demanding change. That's when victims can become very confrontational. But after awhile, if it doesn't change, the victim's self esteem can be so damaged she won't leave, even seeing that there is no change.


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## ilphithra

Lilsnowy said:


> This thread is for considering possible warning signs for abuse. Of course, relationships can have problems, or mistakes in judgement. There can be harsh words, or extenuating circumstances which can change the dynamic. However, in an abusive relationship, the victim's world gets smaller. So does the ability to think well of herself, and to have hope that in the 'good.'
> 
> Isolation will increase. "Misunderstandings" will escalate over time, and several or even all of these red flags probably went unnoticed early on.
> 
> The vast majority of victims never treat their abusers the way they are treated. If it reaches the point that the victim dishes it out, she's probably at the point of recognizing abuse and demanding change. That's when victims can become very confrontational. But after awhile, if it doesn't change, the victim's self esteem can be so damaged she won't leave, even seeing that there is no change.


Trust me, I know all the signs. I witnessed them more than once while I was growing up and nowadays, there is one person that has been told that if I dream he's doing that crap again, I'll personally beat him to a pulp.

Like I said, these signs, if permanent can be taken as abuse but before passing judgement, one must learn how these things come to pass and if there are circumstances or not that might influence behaviors.

I posted some of my personal experiences to show how circumstances may influence behaviors and how one shouldn't jump to conclusions without knowing the whole story behind the red flags that may arise.


----------



## Lilsnowy

ilphithra said:


> Trust me, I know all the signs. I witnessed them more than once while I was growing up and nowadays, there is one person that has been told that if I dream he's doing that crap again, I'll personally beat him to a pulp.
> 
> Like I said, these signs, if permanent can be taken as abuse but before passing judgement, one must learn how these things come to pass and if there are circumstances or not that might influence behaviors.
> 
> I posted some of my personal experiences to show how circumstances may influence behaviors and how one shouldn't jump to conclusions without knowing the whole story behind the red flags that may arise.


I agree that you shouldn't jump to conclusions. People viewing the relationship from the outside, without knowing these factors may think you are being abused, but you are clearly aware of the reasons you see these behaviors and do not feel abused.

But even so, if you _felt abused_ by these behaviors, a change may be required. Abusers and potential abusers often have a lot of excuses for why they do things. The often feel justified and the people they hurt often buy into it or are compassionate people who "feel" for the one who is hurting them. 

Saying no to certain behaviors from the start can help. Like, if a man were to demand that his girlfriend answer her cell phone _immediately_ when he calls, regardless of what she is doing. If he's angry when she doesn't and questions what she is doing, she would need to put a stop to it right away. She would need to tell him that such demands are completely unacceptable. But if she believes it's just because he "worries about her" or buys into the idea that she isn't being trustworthy if she doesn't answer, she will fall for the explaining trap and it will very likely escalate to where she has little personal freedom. Warning signs help you see potential problems.


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## Lilsnowy

There were so many posts months ago about the confusion between 'playfully' forced sex and playful forced sex.

I hope this helps to clarify it some way: *The word 'playfully' in quotes implies that it isn't actually playful. It isn't actually fun to you. *

The abuser is not being playful. You know he isn't playing, no matter what he says to manipulate you. No matter what he says during or after, you didn't want to do that and he forced you to anyway. It was not fun and not play to you. It was abuse. You feel used and hopeless and maybe terrified of pregnancy or some other consequence. Your choice was taken away.

And you can still become sexually aroused when being abused. Your _emotions_ tell you it's abuse, not your body's response. 

If it's playful forced sex, you know that you actually do want it, and you're playing the game too. You like to submit or to play hard-to-get and and you find it a total turn-on to have your hands held over your head or whatever else you like. It's great for both of you and you both like it. Your boundaries may be pushed a little, but you don't feel victimized. Sexuality, with one submissive partner and one dominant, is not abusive if there is an agreement between the two adults because when there is an agreement, _both _retain control, no matter the role the individual assumes.

It becomes abuse when one has control/power and the other feels scared, unsafe or brutalized or even simply disrespected. If you're sleeping and he wants to have sex and you say no but he 'playfully' makes you put up with him doing it anyway so he can get off, it's abuse. It's called rape actually. 

The red flags are usually there to some degree. Pay attention to how you feel (your actual reality) over what he tells you (the lies) or what other people think about him. (They don't know what he is really like) How do you feel with this person?


----------



## MaWhip

I think one red flag that people who have been abused (and also friends and family of the abused) can look out for is the suitor who immediately hones in and locks onto their victim. They come on fast and intense, it can even seem inappropriate.

Serial abusers have special antennae that focus in on those who have already been victimized before and are primed for further victimization. If you are a friend who knows their friend has been victimized in the past, I would especially look at suitors carefully when they seem to just come out of nowhere and pounce on your friend in the flirting/pursuing sense. Particularly if the relationship escalates quickly and all at the suitor's insistence.


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## KateMarie999

I thought I'd look at this again now that I'm in a relationship again. Of course I'm not being abused at all, quite the opposite, but these are good things to remember. Everyone should learn this stuff in high school...


----------



## gold dust woman

I have been in an emotionally abusive relationship for 15 years. Infj woman/intj man. He is a narcissist that has finally seen himself the way others do and is in heavy therapy to try to keep me. He has been verbally abusive, extremely controlling, financially abusive. No physical abuse. I used to wish he would hit me so it would be more obvious that I was justified in leaving. He did the things on the list lightly, except the verbal abuse and financial withholding-so it was never clear whether or not I could leave with a clear concience. Also, the brain washing I received from him was sooooooo thick I had to have professional help to see thru it after 15 years. He is a very different guy theses days, and consistently so. The 8/intj can be myopic when they think they are right. Exploding on him while packing my bags changed his life, and mine. No on ever needed to be cobra infj'd as much as this dude. It worked and he was finally willing to consider the possibility that he may not be right-saw the light- and then his messed up ideas came crashing down around him and he decided to change. I did not change him. He changed him. Most men like this will never change or even mitigate their abusive behavior. My husband turned out to just be a selfish jerk-not a pathological abuser. There is a difference but the line is a fine one. I wish I had chosen to marry a different man, but with my bed already made and two kids, and his willingness to change, I'm stuck.


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## Animal

In my humble opinion, if two partners mutually consent to 'play rough' or dominate/ submit in the bedroom, and it's a mutual desire to act out these roles, this is completely okay.

The difference between abuse and fun can be summed up in one word: COMMUNICATION. If there is communication, and both people are listening and participating, anything they may agree to do sexually is not abuse.


----------



## WickerDeer

Maybe said:


> In my humble opinion, if two partners mutually consent to 'play rough' or dominate/ submit in the bedroom, and it's a mutual desire to act out these roles, this is completely okay.
> 
> The difference between abuse and fun can be summed up in one word: COMMUNICATION. If there is communication, and both people are listening and participating, anything they may agree to do sexually is not abuse.


 I agree that communication is important and essential in any relationship.

I think that your post is assuming that both parties want consent, and both care about what the other feels/wants/needs.

In abusive relationships, communication doesn't really work because the abusive party doesn't have that baseline desire to have a consensual mutual relationship. So communication is often subverted to manipulate one party, or coerce them--or to simply draw all the attention towards the needs of the abuser, leaving the target's safety and healthy unaddressed. Many abusers are excellent at manipulating others via communication. 

Playing rough in sex isn't abuse if it's consensual. But one problem that can happen in abusive relationships is that the target party will often make decisions based on fear and safety. They will remember, sometimes not consciously, times in the past when they were harmed for making a certain choice--such as choosing not to consent to sex. Then, they often naturally choose to adopt the path of least pain--consenting without struggle. But that's not true consent--or at least it's not healthy consent.

That's really how abuse works. It's a pattern of control and coercion. I think it's pretty easy to identify physical abuse, but to identify if the relationship is abusive in another form, one must look at the pattern of behavior and the power dynamics in the relationship.

So, I agree with you--but the word isn't communication--it's also a basic desire for mutual health and benefit for both parties. And of course--communication will support the realization of both parties wellness, when that is their mutual concern.

Also, I do think the playful violent sex thing is one of the weaker signs. Lots of couples can do tons of stuff in bed, and it's a sign of having a stronger relationship with a lot of trust, not an abusive one.


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## SunFlower27

pinkrasputin said:


> 9. Cruelty to Animals or Children: Someone who punishes children and or animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain or suffering. This is a red flag warning and a message that they could hurt *people* too.
> Signs: Expects children to be capable of doing things far beyond their ability (whips a two year old for wetting their diaper). Hurts or abuses animals. Teases children until they cry. Hurts or kills their partner's pets. Does want children to eat at the table or expects them to stay in their room all evening away from adults. 60 % of abusers, who beat their female partner, will also beat their children.


Children are not people??? 

I'm sure you didn't mean to imply this, pinkrasputin, and I thank you for this post: I agree with everything else in it, but, well, whomever you quoted uses an extremely bizarre, eyebrow-raising choice of words in this particular section. Can't quite figure how "people" can be a typo for "adults" but I'm praying that's what it was...

In any case, thanks again for the obviously-needed post!


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## Porridgepudge

Hey, I'd like to give a thank you to this thread even though I don't agree with everything in it. Forceful sex doesn't mean an unhealthy desire for power necessarily. 
Isolation, hypersensitivity, and even some mild jealousy doesn't indicate abuse either. I mean, if someone just says something to their partner that wasn't meant to be harmful, they could still very easily get hurt by it. I know I can sensitive to what I interpreted as criticism even if it isn't.

Anyways, it's great that someone cares enough to put this up.


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## Zeitgeist

pinkrasputin said:


> There have been a few threads on abusive intimate relations. I thought I'd post some warning signs and definitions. Domestic Abuse is not solely confined to one sex over the other. Domestic violence is abuse between intimate partners, where one partner is using different types of abuse (ie, emotional, physical,) to gain power and control over his or her partner.
> 
> *Warning Signs*
> Below is a list of behaviors that are seen in abusive intimate partners. The more signs the person has, the more likely the person has a battering personality and a potential for relationship violence. Initially batterers excuse abusive behavior as signs of love and concern (which can very be flattering), however, as the relationship progresses these abusive behaviors become more controlling, abusive and violent.
> 
> 1. Jealousy: At the beginning of a relationship, an abuser will say that jealousy is a sign of love. Jealousy has nothing to do with love. It's a sign of insecurity and possessiveness.
> Signs: Questions who their partner talks to. Accusations of flirting. Complains of how much time is spent with others. Frequent phone calls throughout the day. Unexpected visits. Unpredictable behavior. Checking car mileage. Asking friends to watch or "spy" on their partner. Falsely accuses partner is cheating on them.
> 
> 2. Controlling Behavior: At the onset of the relationship, the abuser will say that this behavior is because of concern for their partner's safety, or to guide them in good decision-making and time management.
> Signs: Closely questions everything their partner does. Will not allow the partner to make personal decisions about the house, clothing and/or going to church. Anger if the partner is "late" coming back from the store or an appointment. May keep all the money and/or make the partner ask permission to leave the house or room. Will tell their partner what do, what to wear, what to say, etc.
> 
> 3. Fast Moving Relationships: Many domestic violence survivors dated or knew their abuser for less than six months before they were engaged or started living together.
> Signs: Relationship starts like a whirlwind, "love at first sight". Excessive flattery such as "you're the only person I can talk to" and "I love you more than anyone in the world". Abusive partner may state they need someone desperately. Pressure for commitment.
> 
> 4. Unrealistic Expectations: Abusive partners are dependent on relationships for all of their needs; this is not healthy. No relationship is perfect and no one person can realistically be there "all the time."
> Signs: Expects partner to be a perfect partner/spouse, parent, lover, and friend. May say things like "if you love me, I'm all you need, you're all I need." Expects partner to take care of everything emotionally for them. Expects their partner to perform all household tasks.
> 
> 5. Isolation: The abuser tries to cut-off resources in effort to remove opportunities for escape and systems of support. Without supportive friends with which to "trouble talk" about relationships, it can be hard to recognize signs of abuse. Resources include work or school, transportation, family and friends.
> Signs: Friends are not allowed by the abuser; these relationships are viewed as unfaithful. Friendships are ridiculed or sabotaged. Accuses supportive friends to be "causing trouble." Will not allow visits to or from partner's family. Moves away from partner's family and friends. Taking away the phone or the car. Insists their partner stop going to work or to school.
> 
> 6. Blames Others for Problems: Abusers do not take responsibility for any negative situation; instead they will find someone else or some external factor to blame for the problem.
> Signs: Mistakes are the fault the partner. Irresponsibility. Chronic unemployment. Says, "Someone is always doing me wrong" or "out to get me". Says their partner upsets them or keeps them from concentrating. Abuser blames their partner for practically anything and everything that goes wrong.
> 
> 7. Blames Other for Feelings: Abusers often do not understand or want to feel any negative emotions. When an abuser feels hurt, anger, or fear, they will want to find someone to blame to make the feeling go away.
> Signs: Says "you make me mad", "you're hurting me by not doing what I ask", and "I can't help being angry." Uses feelings to manipulate their partner.
> 
> 8. Hypersensitivity: Abusers can be extra sensitive and may explode when they suspect an attack.
> Signs: Easily insulted. Claims feeling "hurt" when really feels anger. Takes the slightest set back as personal attacks. Will "rant and rave" about the injustice of things that have happened, things that are really just part of living like being asked to help with chores.
> 
> 9. Cruelty to Animals or Children: Someone who punishes children and or animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain or suffering. This is a red flag warning and a message that they could hurt people too.
> Signs: Expects children to be capable of doing things far beyond their ability (whips a two year old for wetting their diaper). Hurts or abuses animals. Teases children until they cry. Hurts or kills their partner's pets. Does want children to eat at the table or expects them to stay in their room all evening away from adults. 60 % of abusers, who beat their female partner, will also beat their children.
> 
> 10. "Playful" use of Force in Sex: Media has displayed forceful sex as "sexy," however, it shows unhealthy desire for power and control over one's partner. Sex is about intimacy and mutual consent. It is against the law to force someone into any sexual act.
> Signs: Likes to throw down or restrain partner during sex. Wants to act out sexual fantasies where the partner is helpless. Ideas of "rape" excite them. Not concerned whether their partner wants to have sex or not. Sulks or uses anger to manipulate partner into having sex. Starts having sex with partner while partner is sleeping. Demands sex when partner is ill or tired.
> 
> 11. Verbal Abuse: Abuse is not only physical. Abusers will often criticize and demean their partners.
> Signs: Says cruel and hurtful things. Constantly degrades their partner. Curses. Belittles accomplishments. Says their partner is stupid and incapable of functioning without them. Very critical about everything.
> 
> 12. Rigid Gender Roles: Abusers will use gender roles to restrict and control their partners.
> Signs: Abusers see the opposite sex as inferior to them, less intelligent, and unable to be a whole person without them. For example, some abusers expect their partners to serve and obey them in all things, even things that are criminal in nature. Abusers may restrict their partners from working or going to school.
> 
> 13. Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde: This is a reference to a fictional character that had both a "good" and "evil" side.
> Signs: Sudden changes in mood, a "roller coaster of emotions." Explosiveness. One-minute the abuser is nice and the next minute there is an explosion.
> 
> 14. Past Battering: If someone has a history of violent relationships, they are likely to abuse again (unless the abuser seeks intervention). Situational circumstances do not make a person have an abusive personality.
> Signs: Many abusers have hit partners in the past. Abusers reason that past abuse was because "my partner made me do it." Relatives or ex-partners may admit past abuse.
> 
> 15. Threats of Violence: Threats are meant to control and manipulate. Threats can also be illegal.
> Signs: Threatens, "I'll slap your mouth off", "I'll kill you", or "I'll break your neck". Excuses threats saying, "everybody talks like that."
> 
> 16. Breaking or Striking Objects: Used as a punishment, to terrorize and threaten the partner into submission.
> Signs: Beats on tables with fists. Throws objects near their partner. Breaks partner's special possessions.
> 
> 17. Force during an Argument: Arguments and discussions are a natural part of all relationships, but force or restraint changes an ordinary argument into possible abuse
> Signs: Holding a partner down. Physically restraining partner from leaving the room and saying "you're going to listen to me". Pushing or shoving. Cornering partner against a wall.




*Types of Abuse*


Whether a couple is same-sex or opposite-sex, many dynamics of abuse are the same. An abusive relationship is fueled by the desire of the abuser to have control over his or her partner. The abuser uses different types of abuse, including: physical, sexual, emotional, financial, and spiritual.[/QUOTE]

It's really sad but I recognize a ton of these in my last relationship. At least ten of them.


----------



## Kizuna

i once talked to a 'goodnatured' guy on the phone (was our 2nd or 3rd time, started as a "phone-blind-date", we never met) and at some point i contradicted him which he found audacious, and after i smilingly told him i did this quite often with everyone i know, he said "well if you were my wife i would have given you a good slap in the face".
i hung up immediately, needless to say xD

too bad, he was rather good looking


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## Zeitgeist

miyachanfan said:


> i once talked to a 'goodnatured' guy on the phone (was our 2nd or 3rd time, started as a "phone-blind-date", we never met) and at some point i contradicted him which he found audacious, and after i smilingly told him i did this quite often with everyone i know, he said "well if you were my wife i would have given you a good slap in the face".
> i hung up immediately, needless to say xD
> 
> too bad, he was rather good looking


:shocked: Holy crap! Good thing he was up front about being an abusive horror story waiting to happen or you might've actually dated him!


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## Kizuna

Zeitgeist said:


> :shocked: Holy crap! Good thing he was up front about being an abusive horror story waiting to happen or you might've actually dated him!


i know right  i have a special talent for letting potential partners show their ugly sides right from the beginning..., the sad thing is, because of this quite useful (and entirely unconscious) skill i'm chronically single. sucks.


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## Zeitgeist

miyachanfan said:


> i know right  i have a special talent for letting potential partners show their ugly sides right from the beginning..., the sad thing is, because of this quite useful (and entirely unconscious) skill i'm chronically single. sucks.


That's a really awesome gift! Hang in there girl, it's a wonderful time/pain save and will lead you to the right man.


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## Kizuna

Zeitgeist said:


> That's a really awesome gift! Hang in there girl, it's a wonderful time/pain save and will lead you to the right man.


i wish!! but to this day it's only been something that keeps me away from not only trouble and heartbreak but eventual happy times as well... and sometimes I wish I could live as a nun.  or be a slightly dumb chick who just wants to enjoy life and is able to be happy with the guys i dislike.


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## kallena

I can so relate to you "gold dust". I feel for you.
I'm in a relationship like that too. I'm an INFP and he (ESTJ i think) scares the crap out of me. 
I have 6 more years till my kids are in college and then I can hopefully be free and undo the damage. 
I wish he would just punch me in the face and get it over with, it would be less painful that way.





gold dust woman said:


> I have been in an emotionally abusive relationship for 15 years. Infj woman/intj man. He is a narcissist that has finally seen himself the way others do and is in heavy therapy to try to keep me. He has been verbally abusive, extremely controlling, financially abusive. No physical abuse. I used to wish he would hit me so it would be more obvious that I was justified in leaving. He did the things on the list lightly, except the verbal abuse and financial withholding-so it was never clear whether or not I could leave with a clear concience. Also, the brain washing I received from him was sooooooo thick I had to have professional help to see thru it after 15 years. He is a very different guy theses days, and consistently so. The 8/intj can be myopic when they think they are right. Exploding on him while packing my bags changed his life, and mine. No on ever needed to be cobra infj'd as much as this dude. It worked and he was finally willing to consider the possibility that he may not be right-saw the light- and then his messed up ideas came crashing down around him and he decided to change. I did not change him. He changed him. Most men like this will never change or even mitigate their abusive behavior. My husband turned out to just be a selfish jerk-not a pathological abuser. There is a difference but the line is a fine one. I wish I had chosen to marry a different man, but with my bed already made and two kids, and his willingness to change, I'm stuck.


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## gold dust woman

kallena said:


> I can so relate to you "gold dust". I feel for you.
> I'm in a relationship like that too. I'm an INFP and he (ESTJ i think) scares the crap out of me.
> I have 6 more years till my kids are in college and then I can hopefully be free and undo the damage.
> I wish he would just punch me in the face and get it over with, it would be less painful that way.



Yes- I too have often wished my narcissist would just hit me, too. Then it is completely clear. I am still on the fence about leaving. Some weeks I am definately going as soon as I can support myself, some weeks I am staying because I can't hurt him. I really want to fly away from here forever.


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## Cosmicsense

This thread is sexist. Females abuse just as often as males. I had a _psycho-bitch_ ex that was incredibly manipulative to the extreme, and made me, the male, feel that I was the crazy one (I did end up raging nuts towards the end). Women tend to be less aggressive, but much more passive-aggressive with their abuse. They will set you up, gas light you, and then point the finger and make you look like the abuser when your finally can't take it any more and let off some steam. My psycho ex used many tactics to conceal her transgressions and admit all my faults. She then used my confessions as ammo to make me look crazy for no good reason. 

I think there can be many instances where some of what's mentioned in the OP can be okay, or at least necessary due to extreme situations. Perhaps it's just my Ti at work, but I found myself finding exceptions with the way things were laid out, and saw instances where the judgment of "abuser" didn't seem to match the criteria for every circumstance. I think it could be worded much better.


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## kiskadee

Cosmicsense said:


> This thread is sexist. Females abuse just as often as males.


Hold on, where did anyone say that only men are abusers?


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## Cosmicsense

Grish said:


> Hold on, where did anyone say that *only *men are abusers?


Logical fail. 

sex·ism (s







m)_n._*1. * Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
*2. * Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


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## kiskadee

Cosmicsense said:


> Logical fail.
> 
> sex·ism (s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m)_n._*1. * Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
> *2. * Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


Correction: where did anyone in this thread say that men abuse more often than women?


----------



## SuburbanLurker

Cosmicsense said:


> This thread is sexist. Females abuse just as often as males. I had a _psycho-bitch_ ex that was incredibly manipulative to the extreme, and made me, the male, feel that I was the crazy one (I did end up raging nuts towards the end). Women tend to be less aggressive, but much more passive-aggressive with their abuse. They will set you up, gas light you, and then point the finger and make you look like the abuser when your finally can't take it any more and let off some steam. My psycho ex used many tactics to conceal her transgressions and admit all my faults. She then used my confessions as ammo to make me look crazy for no good reason.
> 
> I think there can be many instances where some of what's mentioned in the OP can be okay, or at least necessary due to extreme situations. Perhaps it's just my Ti at work, but I found myself finding exceptions with the way things were laid out, and saw instances where the judgment of "abuser" didn't seem to match the criteria for every circumstance. I think it could be worded much better.


I can relate to a lot of this (though I don't really see how this thread is sexist). People don't seem to realize how much damage mind games can do to a person. Having a person you love with all your heart, who you trust, and who you consider your confidant go ahead and use said built trust to fuck with your mind is, well, a mindfuck. It makes you lose faith in humanity.

After my last relationship I can say with confidence that I'd much rather be physically abused than emotionally. It doesn't take nearly as much time for physical wounds to heal, and at least with physical abuse there's very little ambiguity and confusion about what they're doing.


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## Cosmicsense

Grish said:


> Correction: where did anyone in this thread say that men abuse more often than women?


It didn't need to be said, it's inferred. The first two pages have but two males who bothered to respond. The word "men" or "man" is repeatedly used in the context of the abuser, yet I did not see the words "women" or "woman". 

I'll tell you something I know without a doubt: women tend to gossip, and often choose to make each other feel "right" about their judgments of a relationship. I've seen selfish and disgusting rationalizations that gossiping women tell each other in order to feel justified for what they were usually a part of. 

Our social institution has become reverse sexist against males. The system is set up so that guys get screwed any which way.


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## Cosmicsense

@*SuburbanLurker*

Fully agree. I'd rather have a limb cut off than go through any more psycho-bitches who purposefully take away exactly what you need: honesty and truth, and replace it with lies, deceit, & manipulations which serve but one purpose :: to mind-fuck you into a lower social status in order to step all over you.


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## kiskadee

Cosmicsense said:


> It didn't need to be said, it's inferred. The first two pages have but two males who bothered to respond.


There is, in fact, a problem with abused men being overlooked or not taken seriously, or being too afraid of seeking help for their abuse because of the social stigmas surrounding it. And there does appear to be a relative lack of men on this thread talking about their histories with abuse compared to women; this is likely to be a symptom of the problem of abused women generally being supported and abused men often being seen as less of men, and abusive women being seen as more "harmless" compared to abusive men. I think we agree on this.



> The word "men" or "man" is repeatedly used in the context of the abuser, yet I did not see the words "women" or "woman".


Reading through the thread, there are a couple instances of this. The vast majority of posters, however, only used gender-neutral language when discussing abusers and victims in general, only using gendered language when discussing specific cases of abuse. So there are signs of the problem within the thread, yes, but hardly enough to declare the entire thread sexist, particularly considering that most of the offenses came from a single poster.



> I'll tell you something I know without a doubt: women tend to gossip, and often choose to make each other feel "right" about their judgments of a relationship. I've seen selfish and disgusting rationalizations that gossiping women tell each other in order to feel justified for what they were usually a part of.


And this stereotype you're presenting of women as gossiping schemers isn't sexist? :/ (Maybe this isn't actually what you're trying to say at all, but that's definitely the impression I take from this statement.)



> Our social institution has become reverse sexist against males. The system is set up so that guys get screwed any which way.


Can you expand on this?

(As an aside, I consider it fallacious to describe discrimination against men as "reverse-sexism." I would simply consider it sexism.)


----------



## kallena

HUGS to you Golddust



gold dust woman said:


> Yes- I too have often wished my narcissist would just hit me, too. Then it is completely clear. I am still on the fence about leaving. Some weeks I am definately going as soon as I can support myself, some weeks I am staying because I can't hurt him. I really want to fly away from here forever.


----------



## Nessie

miyachanfan said:


> i know right  i have a special talent for letting potential partners show their ugly sides right from the beginning..., the sad thing is, because of this quite useful (and entirely unconscious) skill i'm chronically single. sucks.


Thats better version than date man of a kind you described above.
In spanish is proverb "Mejor solo/a que mal acompanado/a" (better alone than in bad company) and I think its true.
Date abusers could spoil taste to date in general


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## b0red

The biggest warning sign is bruises. :tongue:


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## blackballoon

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> I had no idea just how abusive my brother is to me. Here's the list:


Sounds like your brother may have NPD and/or BPD. Have you read about those by any chance?


----------



## Diophantine

Wrong thread sorry...


----------



## ForsakenMe

This is for the ladies. If you're scared that the next guy you'll date is going to be abusive (or otherwise a jerk in general), I'll give you one important lesson: _Look towards his father._ Is the father abusive to his wife, often in front of your boyfriend? Did his father ever hit him or abused him? Is the father a serial cheater and cheats on his wife constantly while your boyfriend knows about it? Is the father even in the picture at all?

If you say yes, I'd be extremely cautious to get serious. Just like the saying "Like daughter like mother", "Like son like father" is also true.


----------



## Lachesis

ForsakenMe said:


> This is for the ladies. If you're scared that the next guy you'll date is going to be abusive (or otherwise a jerk in general), I'll give you one important lesson: _Look towards his father._ Is the father abusive to his wife, often in front of your boyfriend? Did his father ever hit him or abused him? Is the father a serial cheater and cheats on his wife constantly while your boyfriend knows about it? Is the father even in the picture at all?
> 
> If you say yes, I'd be extremely cautious to get serious. Just like the saying "Like daughter like mother", "Like son like father" is also true.


Reading this makes me sad. I don't like the idea that people are judged by the things other people have done. Like deeming an abused son a future abuser or a raped girl a slut.

I think people should be judged by their own merits.


----------



## SuburbanLurker

Lachesis said:


> Reading this makes me sad. I don't like the idea that people are judged by the things other people have done. Like deeming an abused son a future abuser or a raped girl a slut.
> 
> I think people should be judged by their own merits.


I agree. I personally know people who turned out the complete opposite of their abusive/low-life parents because they saw how bad it effected them and didn't want to hurt others in the same way.


----------



## ForsakenMe

Lachesis said:


> Reading this makes me sad. I don't like the idea that people are judged by the things other people have done. Like deeming an abused son a future abuser or a raped girl a slut.
> 
> I think people should be judged by their own merits.


I didn't say don't get involved with them, I said to just be cautious. Of all the people I've come to known, the ones who seem to be overtly abusive towards others always have some messed up parents. There are those who don't turn out like them, of course. I'm just speaking in generalities.


----------



## Doll

ForsakenMe said:


> I didn't say don't get involved with them, I said to just be cautious. Of all the people I've come to known, the ones who seem to be overtly abusive towards others always have some messed up parents. There are those who don't turn out like them, of course. I'm just speaking in generalities.



I see what you're saying.
What _is_ true is that many people who abuse/go on to do other things, have parents that have similar issues. In almost all cases in true crime, a violent criminal has had a dysfunctional family life (usually involving abuse). In the few cases where that isn't true, it was usually drugs or a mental illness that was a mitigating factor.

What _isn't_ true is that all children who have been abused, are mentally ill, or do drugs will go on to be violent criminals. In fact, the majority of them don't.


----------



## ForsakenMe

Snow White said:


> I see what you're saying.
> What _is_ true is that many people who abuse/go on to do other things, have parents that have similar issues. In almost all cases in true crime, a violent criminal has had a dysfunctional family life (usually involving abuse). In the few cases where that isn't true, it was usually drugs or a mental illness that was a mitigating factor.
> 
> What _isn't_ true is that all children who have been abused, are mentally ill, or do drugs will go on to be violent criminals. In fact, the majority of them don't.


You are right. I'm just sick of seeing people getting hurt and then I find out that the abuser has been abused by his or her own parents and so a nasty cycle begins. I am strongly against child abuse because it continues a painful road of future generations to abuse other people, simply because they were taught that love never should feel good, only hurtful.

I can always be there for an abusive person when they need someone to listen to them, but until they receive the proper help to move on from their habits, I'm not going to be enthusiastic of laying all my chips on the table and hope they don't raise their hand at me. Domestic violence awareness exists for a reason.


----------



## Doll

ForsakenMe said:


> You are right. I'm just sick of seeing people getting hurt and then I find out that the abuser has been abused by his or her own parents and so a nasty cycle begins. I am strongly against child abuse because it continues a painful road of future generations to abuse other people, simply because they were taught that love never should feel good, only hurtful.
> 
> I can always be there for an abusive person when they need someone to listen to them, but until they receive the proper help to move on from their habits, I'm not going to be enthusiastic of laying all my chips on the table and hope they don't raise their hand at me. Domestic violence awareness exists for a reason.


Exactly. Domestic violence can be a painful cycle and it displaces the blame - is it the parents? Their parents? The truth is, of course, that's it's always the fault of the person themselves regardless of their upbringing - but it's also likely true that, if they were brought up in a loving home, they might have turned out differently.

I think one of the best things to do is to focus on stopping the cycle, and on encouraging abused children to seek help so they can redefine their understanding of love and respect and what it means. How can you truly love and respect someone else if you've never been shown how? Many children are able to learn this on their own through other means, but there are those few who fall through the cracks and end up hurting themselves or someone else.


----------



## Lachesis

ForsakenMe said:


> I didn't say don't get involved with them, I said to just be cautious. Of all the people I've come to known, the ones who seem to be overtly abusive towards others always have some messed up parents. There are those who don't turn out like them, of course. I'm just speaking in generalities.


I understand. I have personal experience with people who had messed up parents and then bullied me. I guess I was an easy target.

Perhaps I'm too understanding with these people, trying to see the good in them. My friend even once told me not to try to heal people if they themselves aren't ready to do that on their own and/or can't see that anything's wrong with them.

Agh, I don't know. It just feels awful, if someone is extremely cautious about getting serious with someone, if their parents abused them; but at the same time I understand why one should be cautious.


----------



## Lachesis

Snow White said:


> Exactly. Domestic violence can be a painful cycle and it displaces the blame - is it the parents? Their parents? The truth is, of course, that's it's always the fault of the person themselves regardless of their upbringing - but it's also likely true that, if they were brought up in a loving home, they might have turned out differently.
> 
> I think one of the best things to do is to focus on stopping the cycle, and on encouraging abused children to seek help so they can redefine their understanding of love and respect and what it means. How can you truly love and respect someone else if you've never been shown how? Many children are able to learn this on their own through other means, but there are those few who fall through the cracks and end up hurting themselves or someone else.


I otherwise agree, but I think that instead of only encouraging abused children to seek help, people/society/school should be proactive and recognise the children who have these problems at home before these problems turn harder to solve, i.e. them becoming abusers themselves. The children often don't understand where the problem is. They might be puzzled and think that they are the ones doing something wrong and not their parents.

As you said, best thing to do is to stop the cycle.

(Oh and I hope this didn't come out as preachy. Didn't mean to. Still it kinda looks like a bit preachy.)


----------



## Doll

Lachesis said:


> I otherwise agree, but I think that instead of only encouraging abused children to seek help, people/society/school should be proactive and recognise the children who have these problems at home before these problems turn harder to solve, i.e. them becoming abusers themselves. The children often don't understand where the problem is. They might be puzzled and think that they are the ones doing something wrong and not their parents.
> 
> As you said, best thing to do is to stop the cycle.
> 
> (Oh and I hope this didn't come out as preachy. Didn't mean to. Still it kinda looks like a bit preachy.)


Not at all. The sad thing is, a lot of other institutions (like schools, therapists, ect), don't notice these symptoms in a child and often won't report their suspicions of abuse. While it's against the Educator Ethics in Florida, you still have to have sufficient proof that it's happening. In my state, DCF can be equally useless in aiding children, because their ultimate goal is to reunite the child with their family. While I understand that sentiment, sometimes it just isn't in the best interest of the child.

It all goes back to familial privacy and the fact that we can't really see into homes and often the warning signs aren't there (or clear enough to do anything about). I think there needs to be strong training in school systems, as well as with other parents and the children themselves (when they're older) so that the problem can be identified as soon as possible through a variety of different means.


----------



## Lachesis

Snow White said:


> Not at all. The sad thing is, a lot of other institutions (like schools, therapists, ect), don't notice these symptoms in a child and often won't report their suspicions of abuse. While it's against the Educator Ethics in Florida, you still have to have sufficient proof that it's happening. In my state, DCF can be equally useless in aiding children, because their ultimate goal is to reunite the child with their family. While I understand that sentiment, sometimes it just isn't in the best interest of the child.
> 
> It all goes back to familial privacy and the fact that we can't really see into homes and often the warning signs aren't there (or clear enough to do anything about). I think there needs to be strong training in school systems, as well as with other parents and the children themselves (when they're older) so that the problem can be identified as soon as possible through a variety of different means.


Yeah, tell me about it. I've read of cases where teachers have noticed something's wrong, but haven't reported it because they just didn't know what to do. So, yeah it boils down to lack of training, familial privacy, but also to lack of funding. The big honchos think they can save some money by saving in school psychiatry, but how expensive is the army of dysfunctional people and in the worst case scenario a school shooting?

Here where I am, the social workers and teacher, at least when I was at school, were pretty good at spotting if something was wrong, and they had the power to send someone to check things out at home. I think that drove even the abusive parents to get their shit together a bit more. I feel that the system isn't as good as it used to be and the effects can be seen in kids too.

EDIT: I wrote in the school shooting before I heard what has just happened. I'm sorry if it offends anyone. :sad: My prayers go to the families.


----------



## ForsakenMe

Lachesis said:


> I understand. I have personal experience with people who had messed up parents and then bullied me. I guess I was an easy target.
> 
> Perhaps I'm too understanding with these people, trying to see the good in them. My friend even once told me not to try to heal people if they themselves aren't ready to do that on their own and/or can't see that anything's wrong with them.
> 
> Agh, I don't know. It just feels awful, if someone is extremely cautious about getting serious with someone, if their parents abused them; but at the same time I understand why one should be cautious.


Listen, I know exactly how it is. When I was younger and more naive, I would seek out these sad souls who carried pain inside of them due to their abusive parents and/or coming from a broken home. I would try to become a guardian angel for them, prompting them to share their problems with me. I thought I did something virtuous, but alas they thought nothing of me but a personal punching bag instead. As to why I seek them out back then, I guess it's a mixture of my own sadness and the humanitarian in me trying to fix people and things. In the end, I only got scarred and my parents told me to stop being so nice to others. After that, I stopped. Some people still seek me out for comfort and sympathy... don't know why, but I guess I come across as someone who can handle their problems.

If you want to help them, I'd look into getting a degree in counseling. That way if they start to give you shit, at least you get some money out of it. :laughing: I'm just kidding, sorta. :wink: But it is a very rewarding career indeed.


----------



## Dauntless

I can't read this without feeling incredibly ill.


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## Lachesis

ForsakenMe said:


> Listen, I know exactly how it is. When I was younger and more naive, I would seek out these sad souls who carried pain inside of them due to their abusive parents and/or coming from a broken home. I would try to become a guardian angel for them, prompting them to share their problems with me. I thought I did something virtuous, but alas they thought nothing of me but a personal punching bag instead. As to why I seek them out back then, I guess it's a mixture of my own sadness and the humanitarian in me trying to fix people and things. In the end, I only got scarred and my parents told me to stop being so nice to others. After that, I stopped. Some people still seek me out for comfort and sympathy... don't know why, but I guess I come across as someone who can handle their problems.
> 
> If you want to help them, I'd look into getting a degree in counseling. That way if they start to give you shit, at least you get some money out of it. :laughing: I'm just kidding, sorta. :wink: But it is a very rewarding career indeed.


Yep. My life story. And I've had the order 'stop being too nice to others' too. And I mean, I have indeed stopped being all '_may I make you some coffee while you use me as an emotional puke bin?_' but I think I still send that councillor-signal around too much. Luckily I don't actively offer myself to others any more. (hah... somehow that sounded so sluttish, but you get the point)

I think becoming a councillor would wear me out. I'd get too involved and take the worries home with me. I'm in engineering. Machines are so much easier than humans. And I get to push their buttons. :tongue:

I better stop derailing this thread. Plus I think I've already contradicted myself on what I said in my original reply. :ninja:


----------



## Azure Bass

Talk about abuse. It's published last month, the event was in November last year.

Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave | Video on TED.com

A key note from this is that much of the time people don't know they are or were being abused. There are many more. I feel this is worth the time (16 minutes plus reflection time) or I wouldn't have posted it.


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## WickerDeer

Azure Bass said:


> Talk about abuse. It's published last month, the event was in November last year.
> 
> Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave | Video on TED.com
> 
> A key note from this is that much of the time people don't know they are or were being abused. There are many more. I feel this is worth the time (16 minutes plus reflection time) or I wouldn't have posted it.


This is an awesome video. I totally agree with this video--excellent! Will definitely repost.


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## heaveninawildflower

Doll said:


> It all goes back to familial privacy and the fact that we can't really see into homes and often the warning signs aren't there (or clear enough to do anything about). I think there needs to be strong training in school systems, as well as with other parents and the children themselves (when they're older) so that the problem can be identified as soon as possible through a variety of different means.


The warning signs are often staring someone right in the face but it is often ignored. I know because I grew up in a home with domestic violence. There were people in my life who knew what was going on but they ignored it. So when I started getting into trouble for running away from home I was seen as a troublemaker, a bad kid. I was just trying to free myself from that life.


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## RoadLessTravelled

pinkrasputin said:


> 2.	Controlling Behavior: At the onset of the relationship, the abuser will say that this behavior is because of concern for their partner's safety, or to guide them in good decision-making and time management.
> Signs: Closely questions everything their partner does. Will not allow the partner to make personal decisions about the house, clothing and/or going to church. Anger if the partner is "late" coming back from the store or an appointment. May keep all the money and/or make the partner ask permission to leave the house or room. Will tell their partner what do, what to wear, what to say, etc.
> 
> 3.	Fast Moving Relationships: Many domestic violence survivors dated or knew their abuser for less than six months before they were engaged or started living together.
> Signs: Relationship starts like a whirlwind, "love at first sight". Excessive flattery such as "you're the only person I can talk to" and "I love you more than anyone in the world". Abusive partner may state they need someone desperately. Pressure for commitment.
> 
> 4.	Unrealistic Expectations: Abusive partners are dependent on relationships for all of their needs; this is not healthy. No relationship is perfect and no one person can realistically be there "all the time."
> Signs: Expects partner to be a perfect partner/spouse, parent, lover, and friend. May say things like "if you love me, I'm all you need, you're all I need." Expects partner to take care of everything emotionally for them. Expects their partner to perform all household tasks.


I started ever so slightly noticing the guy I was dating earlier this year was starting to do these things. It was very confusing, as at first he seemed so genuine, caring, easy to talk to. These other behaviours slowly started to creep in, such as suggesting it might be better if I changed my job, suggesting I don't wear high heels 'in case I fall over,' having to choose every date location, suggesting I always travelled to his city rather than taking it in turns, talking over me when I tried to end it and trying to get me to change my mind, before suddenly changing his tone completely and saying 'yes lets end it, to be honest I'm relieved' and acting so cold and unbothered after previously saying we had a special connection, that he wanted to move cities to be with me, practically giving me a key to his flat after just 5 dates!

Makes me thankful for my strong intuition and gut vibes so I didn't end up in a proper relationship with this guy. Part of me still feels sad about it/him, like he is a troubled soul, but I'm also wise enough not to get involved with someone like him, as another part of me thinks he might be a bit nuts, and lacking in empathy.


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## Quietude

My mom went through abuse (mostly emotional). I saw it in my childhood, and I did not realize how serious it was until I got to my teens about when they finally divorced. 

It has been going through my mind lately. I think that at times guys or girls who were raised seeing these abusive behaviors don't realize it is abuse always, and so carry on similar traits (either susceptible to abuse or are abusive). I think that one of the main problems is, the susceptible person has a low self esteem, so when someone treats them special, they are afraid no one else will ever like them (because of their low self-esteem) and so are easily abused because they think that no one else will ever love them like that. Then there are those who want to _help _and have big hearts, so an abuser will take advantage of a person like that as well. I can even see tendencies in myself of low self-esteem and wanting to help those who have problems at times, but I don't want to fall into the same things that I have seen in others, so I'm working on overcoming my bad tendencies. 

It seems that the abuser does not see the person they abuse as an equal person; they view them almost as an object, or inferior. It is very sad.


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## Imverypunny

This thread is too long to read over but is there any suggestion as to which types are likely to abuse in certain ways. 
Side note. I don't like these pigeon holed characterisations,it just creates stigma. Its all a matter if the partner doesn't tolerate it,some types tolerate differently. Communication is key imo


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## dragthewaters

Hmm, this is very interesting.

Here are the warning signs I have/had: the thing about being "late," except I actually AM worried about my partner if he comes home late and is uncontactable by phone because I worry that he got into a car accident or something. Semi-fast-moving relationship. Hypersensitivity. Verbal abuse when I am really mad. Force during an argument although I don't do that anymore.

Warning signs my ex had: Some jealousy, fast moving relationship, saying all my friends were "causing trouble" and "cunts/bitches," blaming me for feelings/using emotions to manipulate me, hypersensitivity (especially the "hurt"/anger thing), TONS of verbal abuse, some adherence to rigid gender roles (ie. saying most women are irrational cunts), breaking or striking objects.

Warning signs my mom had back in the day: TONS of isolation (she eventually cut us off from almost all our extended family on both sides), blaming others for problems ("everyone is out to get me" is practically a catchphrase of hers), hypersensitivity (she sees the slightest criticism as a personal attack), verbal abuse, says she was provoked into violence in the past, threats of violence, force during an argument.


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## she kitten

I'm pretty conflicted about my childhood; I won't go into details but I don't remember much of it, and there is stuff that I'd like to forget. I constantly feel a need to move out of my parents' because my family resent me 24/7 (verbal abuse - dad has anger issues, childish in general - blames me for little things to my mum because he's angry that I'm avoiding him (I just don't want to give him more opportunities to call me pathetic); also when he punches the wall over something petty, aside from feeling scared (he hit me across the face so hard I fell down one time- I avoid situations where he can do that to me again like the Plague) and shocked, I'm also feeling confused like I actually might be responsible for his own issues, and that I may just be a bad seed). My mum always sides with him in the end, telling me it's my own fault. (I'm aware I could be sounding like a brat, but my dad has always pooh-poohed everything I've ever said. When I got ill, frequently fainting throughout school (malnutrition and dehydration as a youngster) he called me a liar.

Aside from these problems, I've been classified by doctors as 'delusional' in love - I kept thinking a person could have feelings for me again where he just doesn't anymore; and 'paranoid' - that is mostly about foods and medications that we're told are okay to eat/ take but are creating a lot of problems, if you look intently at the studies. I have hallucinations when I wake up sometimes - I blink and they're still there. I'm still doing whatever my friend (mentd. above) asks of me, such as make pornos and upload them to the internet - yes this bothers me in part but it also distances me in my mind further away from my family, which can be a blessing - he also wants me to use my whiles on others- boys and girls (I was with a girl a couple times when I was younger) -have casual sex and film it; we spend a fortune meeting halfway once in a while (though I don't mind getting out of the house) over in a cheap-but-safe hotel in another town. I truly appreciate the trips for the quality of company - he's still the best friend I've got/ the best person I know, including my peers and tutors/ lecturers from university and college (I'm actually very good friends with my old tutors, and still in touch - regularly invited to the house). Anyway, he and I stay up and watch louis c k... and make porn. Hopefully I'll move into a council flat closer to him, so we can stay friends, and I'll find someone who cares about me as I make casual sex acquaintances (staying safe) I should just say there is absolutely no pressure on me from him to do any of this stuff, it's all my choice, and he's really very sweet and a gifted guy (great at painting, funny, and 'cool')... Oh and get a job as a writer/ illustrator ^S^ 

There you are.. I hope I haven't offended anybody, it was certainly without intent if I did, and I just needed to get this out - for somebody to know and perhaps respond, but I'm not very optimistic on that point - we all have our problems.


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## heaveninawildflower

I wanted to pass along a link for those who have lived with domestic violence and for those who may want to help... CDV | Children of Domestic Violence


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## arosebyanyothername

ENTrePenuer said:


> Finally some truth.
> Let's just admit that some women demand abuse and stop pussyfooting around it.


 why are you here, we are not your exes,its pretty obvious you have a few "issues" with women,are you getting a kick out of this?


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## spiderfrommars

> 10. "Playful" use of Force in Sex: Media has displayed forceful sex as "sexy," however, it shows unhealthy desire for power and control over one's partner. Sex is about intimacy and mutual consent. It is against the law to force someone into any sexual act.
> Signs: Likes to throw down or restrain partner during sex. Wants to act out sexual fantasies where the partner is helpless. Ideas of "rape" excite them. Not concerned whether their partner wants to have sex or not. *Sulks or uses anger to manipulate partner into having sex. *Starts having sex with partner while partner is sleeping. *Demands sex when partner is ill or tired*.


 Only the bolded are in any way abusive. As long as the partner agrees to do the other stuff. I assume it's clear that's what I meant. The idea that power-play/BDSM and mutual consent are opposite things is just so ridiculous.


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## eydimork

Some of the top points can be confused with a person of Avoidant Personality Disorder. Unless of course you want advocate that the most submissive person in the world is a wifebeater.


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## d.coybunny

I am really, really angry- i just need to do something so thats why i'm writing here.

My little sister just called (ESTJ- i think). She has just been attacked by her boyfriend, he flipped out and beat her. He had taken her bag and locked the door to stop her leaving.The neighbours came in and his mother- they held him back. She managed to grab her bag and run out. Then she hid down an alley way and called me. Thing is, she is in a different country. What can i do? I am just useless. I told her to go to a police station- all she needs to do is hail a cab and they will bring her there. She lives in London and I live in Ireland. But she wont listen to me and she doesnt even know where she is because she has just run about randomly. She is a bit tipsy and she has been punched twice in the head and banged her head off the ground. I'm worried that she is still in shock. But i'm trying to reason with her and make her go to a police station or a hospital but she is so stubborn. Problem is when she was living near me, i always went and picked her up when she got into scrapes. She still always calls me when shes in trouble and i go and sort it out. Now that i cant go i'm trying to tell her that she needs to go somewhere to be checked over and talk to someone. She will not listen and i'm trying not to get frustrated but i'm also so angry that its hard not to sound angry at her when i'm really angry at waste of a human being boyfriend and at myself for not being able to do anything. We grew up in a very violent household but i always hoped that history wouldn't repeat itself with my brother and sister. My sister has dated some very questionable characters but i dared not open my mouth because she is very headstrong and takes everything i say as personal criticism. Even this guy, when she broke up with him over the Christmas whilst back home for the holidays i heard snippets of conversations over the phone and her telling me various things, gave me a chill but i just said that it sounded like the relationship was a little bit too much drama for a comfortable life. Problem is my sister loves drama. She got back with him and i was a little uneasy. Now this happens and i'm just feeling like a black hole just opened up in my stomach. I can just hear the words again- 'He didn't mean it.' 'It was an accident.' 'Look he's so sorry he was crying and everything.' 'He promised me it won't happen again.' 'I can change him.' 'Its because he had a terrible childhood.' 'He's the only one who really loves me.' All the bullshit and the years of daily dread just gnawing at any hope of ever getting away. How do you stop it repeating again? What do i do to protect her? Is it inevitable that some people are going to recreate their childhood because thats the only way that they think 'love' is shown?

I'm sorry, I was a little emotional last night when I wrote this rant and I'm came back here to delete it today. However, I think I'm going to leave it here for anyone else who is in a similar situation to take from it anything they want- even if it is that other people might be going through the same sort of things that they are. I spoke to my sister many times last night- she told me that the cops dropped her off at home and that her friends came round to be with her. I don't know how much of that to believe or if she was just saying things to make me feel better or get off her case. There is little much else I can do and the rest of the family is calling her regularly to make sure that she knows we are there for her. I would just appeal to anyone, who read the excellent article at the start of this thread that notes the signs of abuse/ violence, that you keep this in the back of your mind as you go about your daily business. There are people who have come to live in your community that may be from a different part of the country/world and are separated from their family. They are particularly vulnerable to being abused- this is especially true of young women. Sometimes all it takes is a kind smile (no language barrier with that one) or a simple 'are you ok?' to give them that little bit of strength that they need to feel like they are still human, that someone thinks that they deserve a little kindness and that they could have a way out of a terrible situation. 

Sorry for being sombre but its important. 
d.coy


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## Mystic MagentaRose

I wish I would have read this before I got involved with my ex boyfriend but no worries I'm not with him any longer. Right now I'm still working on the process of healing from being emotionally & verbally abused by him and all the things you listed was things that he's done. Last year I finally got away from him, I left town to visit a friend of mine and didn't even tell him where I was going. Ended up breaking up with him through a e-mail. There was so many horrible things that he put me through. I'm so glad that I'm away from him now cause I don't deserve that kind of treatment. Now I'm a lot more cautious about who I get involved with due to this.


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## Flowerpot92

My father was pretty abusive. I recognize many of the signs in there. If the enneagram depended on early behavior, then I guess my enneagram has a lot to do with both of my parents. My mother was loving, my father too, but when he was angry, he was another man. Once as a kid, he threatened to throw me out of the house and actually stood on the gate pushing me out, while I was hanging on his legs very tight. That was my first vivid memory of fear and abandonment. I don't want to remember that, this is a memory hidden far deep in my mind.

Anyway, I've always sworn never to be an abusive person myself but I am scared to have developed different ways of abusing people, and I need your help to tell me the truth.

When I feel angry, I ignore people. I ignore them and let my anger steep but other people can feel it too. It's cold and scary. If I speak to someone, my tone is kind or calm, but my words are quite assertive. But sometimes, I can speak very icily of people. I know I did once, and it scared the shit out of my boyfriend at the time. I've been that way to him twice after he made me really really angry (called me names I hated as a kid that still affect me, teased me about a previous heartbreak, both were just teasing). And every time he apologized and I went back to normal, and I felt horrible for behaving so distant from him. I remember telling him once to cut it out in this very distant kind of way, and he mumbled that he didn't understand why I was being so mean to him. I apologized the second later.

Is this abuse? Was I abusing him? Because, believe me, I try really hard not to show people I am angry, and, for my boyfriend, I've never once yelled at him, or belittled him. I've had so many occasions to be angry and to let it out, but I decided every single time that I would either make him feel safe if it didn't hurt, or ignore it if it did. But I may be biased by my own upbringing so that's why I need your help.


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## d.coybunny

Flowerpot92 said:


> My father was pretty abusive. I recognize many of the signs in there. If the enneagram depended on early behavior, then I guess my enneagram has a lot to do with both of my parents. My mother was loving, my father too, but when he was angry, he was another man. Once as a kid, he threatened to throw me out of the house and actually stood on the gate pushing me out, while I was hanging on his legs very tight. That was my first vivid memory of fear and abandonment. I don't want to remember that, this is a memory hidden far deep in my mind.
> 
> Anyway, I've always sworn never to be an abusive person myself but I am scared to have developed different ways of abusing people, and I need your help to tell me the truth.
> 
> When I feel angry, I ignore people. I ignore them and let my anger steep but other people can feel it too. It's cold and scary. If I speak to someone, my tone is kind or calm, but my words are quite assertive. But sometimes, I can speak very icily of people. I know I did once, and it scared the shit out of my boyfriend at the time. I've been that way to him twice after he made me really really angry (called me names I hated as a kid that still affect me, teased me about a previous heartbreak, both were just teasing). And every time he apologized and I went back to normal, and I felt horrible for behaving so distant from him. I remember telling him once to cut it out in this very distant kind of way, and he mumbled that he didn't understand why I was being so mean to him. I apologized the second later.
> 
> Is this abuse? Was I abusing him? Because, believe me, I try really hard not to show people I am angry, and, for my boyfriend, I've never once yelled at him, or belittled him. I've had so many occasions to be angry and to let it out, but I decided every single time that I would either make him feel safe if it didn't hurt, or ignore it if it did. But I may be biased by my own upbringing so that's why I need your help.


Being from that sort of background changes a person- into what, though, is hard to say. I have typed and discarded 2 posts already that tried to give a response or advice. However, merely being from similar background does not mean that advice from me is worth considering. I would have to say, as well, that I doubt there is anyone here that can give you advice based on a single post and I would suggest that meeting with an expert may be beneficial in the long run. 

All I will say is well done. You survived and, whats more, you seem to already be taking responsibility for your own behaviour. You are stronger than you think.


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## doineed1

Not trying to hate here.. but a lot of my x's had more than a few characteristics off that list.. in american society they were deemed normal. Just food for thought. 

Also I think a lot of couples see flirting outside of the relationship as a bad thing.


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## petite libellule

Sunshine Boy said:


> It's such a bummer being a victim of childhood sexual abuse. I am going to use my anger to take me to new heights and get over this shit.
> 
> 
> edit: I've done some studying and it doesn't seem like anger is the answer.


what are you trying to say with this post ? Because unless you've been raped or abused, I'm not so sure I understand your point unless it's passive aggressive remnants of resentment of dealing with someone who struggled and on their behalf I do want do say, "balls in yo mouth good sir' humph. That is all.


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## Indiana Dan

Lady Rainicorn said:


> what are you trying to say with this post ? Because unless you've been raped or abused, I'm not so sure I understand your point unless it's passive aggressive remnants of resentment of dealing with someone who struggled and on their behalf I do want do say, "balls in yo mouth good sir' humph. That is all.


I don't really understand what you are talking about, but yes I was sexually abused around the age of 8 or so.


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## petite libellule

Sunshine Boy said:


> I don't really understand what you are talking about, but yes I was sexually abused around the age of 8 or so.


I thought you were being sarcastic as (at least from my experience) people are typically condemned showing anger. And while you say it doesn't "work", I don't think it's fair to say I can't or you can't be angry. I don't even think it's worth trying to make better. There's no amount of typology crap that can fix fucked up wiring and I suppose, I feel like I have the right to be angry and it makes me angry when people try to take that right away from me. 

I guess I misinterpreted, like you were being sarcastic against people who act angry and struggle and so. Yeah. This is awkward.


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## Indiana Dan

Lady Rainicorn said:


> I thought you were being sarcastic as (at least from my experience) people are typically condemned showing anger. And while you say it doesn't "work", I don't think it's fair to say I can't or you can't be angry. I don't even think it's worth trying to make better. There's no amount of typology crap that can fix fucked up wiring and I suppose, I feel like I have the right to be angry and it makes me angry when people try to take that right away from me.
> 
> I guess I misinterpreted, like you were being sarcastic against people who act angry and struggle and so. Yeah. This is awkward.


Yeah I was emotionally abused by my father, and later began being abused by my babysitters son, who was several years older than me. He eventually began sexually abusing me. He was sexually abused by his uncle. He inflicted the cycle of abuse on me and it heavily damaged my self esteem (even more). Now as an adult, I have struggled with addiction and depression constantly, constantly struggle to feel my self worth. Much of the time I feel sorrow about my existence. I now understand that a lot of it comes from my childhood. 

This is is why I believe there is no one god watching over us. I believe we are all gods, and we have the choice to be good or evil and destroy. We are all one collective energy.. Like Buddhism or whatever.

no offense taken


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## ChaosEpsilon

My ex got married to this guy pretty quickly after they started going out. Before they started going out, he was possessive almost to the point of stalking. Now that they're married, he constantly checks to make sure she's not texting or hanging out with guys (though this is understandable since she has cheated on him a lot). She says that he doesn't give her very much attention now that they're married, like sexual attention.

The thing is that she has told people that when they argue, sometimes he raises his hand like he's going to backhand her. He hasn't ever hit her, she says, but that makes me furious. I told her that if the moment ever comes that he uses some sort of violence against her, even if he's sorry afterwards, to leave. I told her to be intolerable of that shit. Hopefully he never will.


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## Fern

https://www.psychopathfree.com/content.php?212-30-Red-Flags


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## Mair

> 10.	"Playful" use of Force in Sex


Nonsense. A lot of people are into that kind of thing without abusing anyone. It's called BDSM and it's safe and consensual .


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## Sara Torailles

Mair said:


> Nonsense. A lot of people are into that kind of thing without abusing anyone. It's called BDSM and it's safe and consensual .


Honestly, non-kinky people could learn a lot from kinky people. Enthusiastic consent is for everyone, and BDSM culture is miles ahead of vanilla people on that.


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## untested methods

On the topic of blame, responsibility, and hypersensitivity... I feel like I narrowly dodged what would have been a toxic, potentially abusive relationship down the road earlier this year.

We would argue every couple of days and it would go on for a half-hour or more, with him apologizing repeatedly, ranting, and saying I treated him like shit. I left early on feeling like the worst person in the world, always hurting people unintentionally without realizing it and making them feel like they were being attacked so much that they had to just keep apologizing to defend themselves from my anger. I didn't believe that about myself going in, but I was in a sensitive place and I took it to heart when he started saying those things. I'd recently had a falling-out that was my fault, too, so I was willing to believe that in a way.

I carried this fear over into a few new friendships, one of which was briefly romantic before we decided distance would just be too hard. I was always apologizing to them for fear I was hurting them when we disagreed or misunderstood each other, but then I realized that no one ever had any idea what I was apologizing _for_. No one else thought any of those things about me, and our (very few) disagreements were settled and forgotten in minutes--even ones they were used to other people holding grudges over. They were horrified when I explained the arguments and showed some of our text exchanges.

I can only imagine how sick and unhappy I'd be right now if I'd gone with that man, after all. I just hope everyone out there feels comfortable and has people to turn to for outside perspective. Honestly, I have no idea how someone like that got inside my head so fast even though I was still upset about something else deep down.


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## Sygma

> 8.	Hypersensitivity: Abusers can be extra sensitive and may explode when they suspect an attack.
> Signs: Easily insulted. Claims feeling "hurt" when really feels anger. Takes the slightest set back as personal attacks. Will "rant and rave" about the injustice of things that have happened, things that are really just part of living like being asked to help with chores.


Yeah thank you for actually dismissin people who are actually hypersensitive, not playin that "game"

It is a thing that is not easy to cope with, even tho its not that extreme


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## themaraudingtimelord

I just got out of one right now. I was abused as a kid and I think that's why I was already used to people treating me that way. I got into a similar situation with the person that I was dating (we had a toxic on-and-off relationship). I finally realized that if those people truly cared about me then they wouldn't treat me like shit.


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## stargazing grasshopper

Fern said:


> https://www.psychopathfree.com/content.php?212-30-Red-Flags


Red flags of psychotic behavior may be indicative of early childhood abuse, these sites might be helpful to identify the psychopaths with childhood skeletons in their closet.

https://www.rainn.org/get-information/links
Sibling Sexual Abuse ? Uncovering the Secret 
Stalking Resource Center


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## Fern

stargazing grasshopper said:


> Red flags of psychotic behavior may be indicative of early childhood abuse, these sites might be helpful to identify the psychopaths with childhood skeletons in their closet.
> 
> https://www.rainn.org/get-information/links
> Sibling Sexual Abuse ? Uncovering the Secret
> Stalking Resource Center


Yes, that was precisely the case with my deeply traumatized and abusive ex.


The cycle of abuse is truly tragic.


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## stargazing grasshopper

Fern said:


> Yes, that was precisely the case with my deeply traumatized and abusive ex.
> 
> 
> The cycle of abuse is truly tragic.



I know a woman (family friend) that's alleged to have been repeatedly sexually assaulted by her older sibling. Her parents minimized the sexual abuse & later threatened her into keeping it secret. 

I strongly believe that children need to be educated not to hide abuse or keep destructive family secrets.


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## love_glitter

I was in a very very emotionally abusive relationship for 13 years. My therapist said it was so bad that its hard to explain to other therapist and its the worst case she has ever seen. (Yay me for surviving because I almost didnt) and This list is spot on! All the signs were there but I didn't know to look for them.


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## love_glitter

Agree!


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## cinnabun

When they try to use depression/suicide as a rouse to get you to feel sorry for them

When they don't take any responsibility for hurting you, and instead, find ways to turn it around on you.

When they're emotionally neglectful.

When they stop putting effort into the relationship, yet expect you to listen to them rant about their shitty life 24/7.

When they're hitting up people who are lesser than you (1) then have the audacity to try and make you compete for their attention (2). 

When they go to other people, drunk and crying, about how they miss you, trying to get those people to come to you and be like "://///////"

When the get pissed if you even _talk_ to someone of the opposite sex.

When their so insecure that you actually have more balls than them.



The list is endless.


----------



## Ace Face

Rinnie said:


> When they try to use depression/suicide as a rouse to get you to feel sorry for them
> 
> When they don't take any responsibility for hurting you, and instead, find ways to turn it around on you.
> 
> When they're emotionally neglectful.
> 
> When they stop putting effort into the relationship, yet expect you to listen to them rant about their shitty life 24/7.
> 
> When they're hitting up people who are lesser than you (1) then have the audacity to try and make you compete for their attention (2).
> 
> When they go to other people, drunk and crying, about how they miss you, trying to get those people to come to you and be like "://///////"
> 
> When the get pissed if you even _talk_ to someone of the opposite sex.
> 
> When their so insecure that you actually have more balls than them.
> 
> 
> 
> The list is endless.


Overt name-calling and public humiliation are both pretty damn emotionally abusive. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be fucking angry as hell, but I'm not going to support this kind of behavior from -either- of you. This is fucking mean, and this is not the YOU that I know.


----------



## Metalize

Damn Ace.


----------



## cinnabun

Ace Face said:


> Overt name-calling and public humiliation are both pretty damn emotionally abusive. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be fucking angry as hell, but I'm not going to support this kind of behavior from -either- of you. This is fucking mean, and this is not the YOU that I know.


 <3.


----------



## Ace Face

Rinnie said:


> <3.


<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Lots of love :3


----------



## Metalize

@_Ace Face_

I just thought it was a very well-composed and highly relevant post that was in desperate need of being written. :kitteh:


----------



## Metalize

One potential warning sign (for me) is an _over_fixation on sex and sex-related topics (which are surprisingly broad).

It's a dealbreaking aspect of it and an important thing for many people, obviously, but if sex/superficial aesthetics are the only things their minds are capable of generating, it usually means that the guy is sex-obsessed and prone to cheating at the slightest whim (and will probably trade her in for a newer model past her 40s), and the woman may be suffering from borderline personality disorder, histrionics, and likely narcissism. :/ Not a good investment, either way.


----------



## cinnabun




----------



## Ace Face

Metasentient said:


> @_Ace Face_
> 
> I just thought it was a very well-composed and highly relevant post that was in desperate need of being written. :kitteh:


It's nice to see you say what you mean. If you did this all the time instead of being ambiguous, I think you'd find you'd have a much easier time on the forum. Fewer people would misconstrue your intentions, which means fewer arguments would be created. I know you enjoy the banter sometimes, but I think it drains you much of the time. There's a lot to be said for clear communication. I'd also like to think that if you had a problem with Rinnie, that you'd address her directly.


----------



## Ace Face

Rinnie said:


>


Really, bro? Really? lol.


----------



## cinnabun

Ace Face said:


> Really, bro? Really? lol.


----------



## Metalize

Ace Face said:


> It's nice to see you say what you mean. If you did this all the time instead of being ambiguous, I think you'd find you'd have a much easier time on the forum. Fewer people would misconstrue your intentions, which means fewer arguments would be created.


I appreciate your concern, but while I may not always understand forum interrelations, I seem to have an amazingly easy time of it offline. I hope that this continues.

One thing I have noticed frequently in the past is that the same people who insist on eliminating "ambiguity" are the ones who would also say "u mad bro" when someone does bring up an issue with them in a straightforward manner. Now, I am not implying that this is you, but you curiously happened upon something I did notice in the past. When you think about it, it makes for impossible communications because the original aggressor's intentions mar the exchange. And it makes me wonder if you bother saying anything to them as well?



> I know you enjoy the banter sometimes, but I think it drains you much of the time. There's a lot to be said for clear communication. I'd also like to think that if you had a problem with Rinnie, that you'd address her directly.


I don't know who that is. 

Also, randomly telling people that "there are plenty of other peoples' dick you can suck" doesn't seem to me like a professional, adult response, so I wonder how that would be reconciled alongside what you said above.


----------



## Ace Face

Metasentient said:


> I appreciate your concern, but while I may not always understand forum interrelations, I seem to have an amazingly easy time of it offline. I hope that this continues.
> 
> One thing I have noticed frequently in the past is that the same people who insist on eliminating "ambiguity" are the ones who would also say "u mad bro" when someone does bring up an issue with them in a straightforward manner. Now, I am not implying that this is you, but you curiously happened upon something I did notice in the past. When you think about it, it makes for impossible communications because the original aggressor's intentions mar the exchange. And it makes me wonder if you bother saying anything to them as well?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who that is.
> 
> Also, randomly telling people that "there are plenty of other peoples' dick you can suck" doesn't seem to me like a professional, adult response, so I wonder how that would be reconciled alongside what you said above.


Lol, I've poked fun at Shahada for quite some time. I've expressed my liking for him on more than one occasion as well. It's playful, and I don't feel the need to apologize for it.


----------



## Metalize

Ace Face said:


> Lol, I've poked fun at Shahada for quite some time. I've expressed my liking for him on more than one occasion as well. It's playful, and I don't feel the need to apologize for it.


It wasn't aimed at Shahada, it was at someone with whom you've never spoken to before. They also happen to be my friend, which is why I was able to ask them directly if it was a joke or not. They felt it was unprovoked, random, and no, they didn't appreciate the random aggression.

It's nice to see an explanation of the other though. I wouldn't presume to advise on this one though, because I think it's fairly self-evident.


----------



## Ace Face

Metasentient said:


> It wasn't aimed at Shahada, it was at someone with whom you've never spoken to before. They also happen to be my friend, which is why I was able to ask them directly if it was a joke or not. They felt it was unprovoked, random, and no, they didn't appreciate the random aggression.
> 
> It's nice to see an explanation of the other though. I wouldn't presume to advise on this one though, because I think it's fairly self-evident.


Then I hope that person will step up to the plate and address me so that we can clear the air. +10 for being protective of your friends.


----------



## cinnabun

Metasentient said:


> I don't know who that is.


Well, since you just read my response above, clearly you do. Hi.



Metasentient said:


> Also, randomly telling people that "there are plenty of other peoples' dick you can suck" doesn't seem to me like a professional, adult response


You're right, it's not.

Neither is posting passive-aggressive remarks directed towards people who weren't even speaking to/of you in the first place.

I'm not sure if that's your intention (if it's not, I apologise for taking it the wrong way) but just so you know, this isn't the first time I've felt like you've made a sly remark directed towards me. I've seen that someone else already had this issue with you, so it's quite possible you don't even realise you're doing it. In any case, I hope you can become aware of it, just so there's no confusion or animosity between yourself and other members. Why be enemies when you can be friends, right?


----------



## Metalize

Ace Face said:


> Then I hope that person will step up to the plate and address me so that we can clear the air. +10 for being protective of your friends.


Do you think people should say "hey, you're being an asshole" every time someone's being an asshole? Serious question.


----------



## Ace Face

cybersloth81 said:


> So someone says something you disagree with and now your calling them an abuser.
> 
> Is this what you mean by filling someones head with crap?
> 
> Call them names and make them feel shitty until they "come round to your way of thinking"?


Yeah. The baseless allegations and the irony really speak for themselves. As far as I'm concerned, she can devote as much time and energy as she would like on thoughts of me


----------



## Caveman Dreams

Ace Face said:


> Yeah. The baseless allegations and the irony really speak for themselves. As far as I'm concerned, she can devote as much time and energy as she would like on thoughts of me


I just agree with what you said that set her off.

Its like my next door neighbour, his wife/fiancée/gf/whatever boots him out the house all the time if he dosnt buy her nice things. Then she takes him back and he splashes out on her.

I can hear her shouting and screaming and threatening him all the time.

But at end of the day, he made a choice to be with her. 
Its really not my problem.

Its just one of them things.


----------



## Ace Face

cybersloth81 said:


> I just agree with what you said that set her off.
> 
> Its like my next door neighbour, his wife/fiancée/gf/whatever boots him out the house all the time if he dosnt buy her nice things. Then she takes him back and he splashes out on her.
> 
> I can hear her shouting and screaming and threatening him all the time.
> 
> But at end of the day, he made a choice to be with her.
> Its really not my problem.
> 
> Its just one of them things.


And the worst part is that this sort of thing happens all the time. So many people accept abuse and crumbs of love. It's sad :/


----------



## Caveman Dreams

Ace Face said:


> And the worst part is that this sort of thing happens all the time. So many people accept abuse and crumbs of love. It's sad :/


I think some people actually enjoy abuse.

Im not sure if I mentioned this elsewhere on this forum.
Last year I saw a girl a few times, and it would get quite rough, but she seemed quite unattached. It was only when it got really rough one night and I pushed myself way out of my comfort zone as she was getting physical and verbal so I slapped her in the face (she had already slapped and punched me) and called her a dead beat white trash whore. At this point she suddenly went anime eyed and told me that she loved me. 

She only seemed affectionate when it was basically abusive. I ended it as as much as I liked her, it didn't sit well with who I was.

Im still not sure if Im more shocked at what I did or her reaction.

The next day I took her to Breakfeast at Frankie and Benny's and we had quite an in depth chat (she opened up a bit more after the dead beat white trash whore thing) and it turned out that her dad was a bit of a violent drunk.

So not sure if its people enjoying abuse, being trapped, or just crappy male role models when growing up.


----------



## Ace Face

cybersloth81 said:


> I think some people actually enjoy abuse.
> 
> Im not sure if I mentioned this elsewhere on this forum.
> Last year I saw a girl a few times, and it would get quite rough, but she seemed quite unattached. It was only when it got really rough one night and I pushed myself way out of my comfort zone as she was getting physical and verbal so I slapped her in the face (she had already slapped and punched me) and called her a dead beat white trash whore. At this point she suddenly went anime eyed and told me that she loved me.
> 
> She only seemed affectionate when it was basically abusive. I ended it as as much as I liked her, it didn't sit well with who I was.
> 
> Im still not sure if Im more shocked at what I did or her reaction.
> 
> The next day I took her to Breakfeast at Frankie and Benny's and we had quite an in depth chat (she opened up a bit more after the dead beat white trash whore thing) and it turned out that her dad was a bit of a violent drunk.
> 
> So not sure if its people enjoying abuse, being trapped, or just crappy male role models when growing up.


Yeah, there are some people out there who enjoy the roller coaster of emotional highs and lows that go with it. A lot of factors could tie into the reasons they choose to live with that type of dysfunction.


----------



## Caveman Dreams

Ace Face said:


> Yeah, there are some people out there who enjoy the roller coaster of emotional highs and lows that go with it. A lot of factors could tie into the reasons they choose to live with that type of dysfunction.


Plus then take into side effects of getting involved.

A while back I saw some guy having a proper go at his gf/fiancée/wife/some random girl (I didn't ask so don't know the relationship), he was shouting, swearing, threatening to beat her, blah blah b;lah.

Did I do anything, no, fuck that shit.

But sure enough along came a White Knight who decided that this woman was going to be the fair maiden he saved that day.

So in he jumped, telling the guy that he shouldn't treat women that way. The girl suddenly started cursing and swearing at Mr White Knight. A fair maiden she was not.

The abusive guy then proceeded to kick the shit out of the white knight whilst the fair maiden egged him on, cheered him and laughed at our defeated White Knight.

They then seemed to get on really well, holding hands and kissing.

It was like the maiden was charged by watching her Black Knight destroy Sir Lancelot.

But anyway on a serious note, this is why I don't get involved in this stuff:

A) I don't know the full picture
B) I enjoy breathing


----------



## StableSun35

I don’t care for either one of you and nah, not conversing with you anymore. Suck the life out of someone else with your abuse and games.


----------



## Caveman Dreams

StableSun35 said:


> I don’t care for either one of you and nah, not conversing with you anymore. Suck the life out of someone else with your abuse and games.


Bye bye.

Not sure where we were abusing people in those responses but never mind.

Have a good un.


----------



## Chesire Tower

What I've learned that "abuse" can come in many forms in from a variety of people in different walks of life. I sometimes tend to be overly trusting.


----------



## Eset

Abuse: Warning Signs and Types:

When they destroy me with memes.
When they fuck up my saves in video games.
When they throw away half-eaten pizza.


----------



## Tsubaki

I've experienced 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 very heavily.
11 happened a lot.
13 is also true.
15 and 16 in other forms ("I will leave you if you don't do it", "you are just a cheating slut without me". Tried to hurt himself. Wanted me to throw away special posessions as "punishments")


----------



## Caidryn

Sadly, emotional abuse can happen to anyone, from nearly anyone. I was in an abusive relationship until just recently, and I experienced 3,4,6,7,8,9,10,12,13,14, and 15 first hand, though the threats were to harm herself, not me. It was a long distance relationship. It began with her getting back together with an ex for a night of "fun", then telling me about it. When I wanted to go (because it was still early on in the relationship and I wasn't overly attached) she begged and pleaded for me to stay for hours, and convinced me eventually. She later confessed she dropped to the floor laughing that she had succeeded in suckering me back in. The next day while I was waiting for her, she went back to him to do it all over again, and came back with lies. It was the start of a long, emotionally abusive relationship.

She would frequently cheat on me, tell me it was all over, different, and to give her one more chance, and somehow always suckered me into coming back. She seemed nice to my face, but told all of her friends, and even our mutual friends how horrible I was behind my back, constantly. She told me if I loved her, I would trust her, while lying to me again and again and again.

...sometimes I was even punished for not trusting her when she was lying to me openly and directly, even after that fact was revealed.

Finally, in the end, I found out she was talking to all the people she'd cheated on me with, on a secret skype account. I finally left her, and blocked her completely out of my life. There were times she made me want to commit suicide, which can't be healthy for a person struggling with depression. And through the whole thing, every step of the way, she'd blame me, and play the victim.

I am a male, here to show abuse doesn't just come from men. And here to hope that others manage to stand up and get out of relationships like these before it's too late.


----------



## Arwen88

Thank you so much for this thread. 

I just keep asking myself WHY people abuse. What makes them to be like that


----------



## Chesire Tower

SilverGirl said:


> Thank you so much for this thread.
> 
> I just keep asking myself WHY people abuse. What makes them to be like that


They behave based on what they've learned. IOW, if someone has a background of abuse; without some form of therapy, a good friend, etc. to help them cope and understand their experience; they are highly prone to repeat that behaviour.


----------



## Arwen88

Chesire Tower said:


> They behave based on what they've learned. IOW, if someone has a background of abuse; without some form of therapy, a good friend, etc. to help them cope and understand their experience; they are highly prone to repeat that behaviour.


And does it have to be always abuse? Can it be caused by e.g. childhood trauma or something like that? And what can do a person who is in touch with someone who is abusive?


----------



## Chesire Tower

SilverGirl said:


> And does it have to be always abuse? Can it be caused by e.g. childhood trauma or something like that? And what can do a person who is in touch with someone who is abusive?


Well, yes, the origins of abuse are complex. To answer you second question; I would advise the best thing anyone who is involved with an abuser to do is to focus on oneself and doing whatever's necessary to develop the necessary self-esteem needed to prevent one from being victimized by others' abuse.


----------



## ECM

> 1.	Jealousy: At the beginning of a relationship, an abuser will say that jealousy is a sign of love. Jealousy has nothing to do with love. It's a sign of insecurity and possessiveness.
> Signs: Questions who their partner talks to. Accusations of flirting. Complains of how much time is spent with others. Frequent phone calls throughout the day. Unexpected visits. Unpredictable behavior. Checking car mileage. Asking friends to watch or "spy" on their partner. Falsely accuses partner is cheating on them.
> 
> 6.	Blames Others for Problems: Abusers do not take responsibility for any negative situation; instead they will find someone else or some external factor to blame for the problem.
> Signs: Mistakes are the fault the partner. Irresponsibility. Chronic unemployment. Says, "Someone is always doing me wrong" or "out to get me". Says their partner upsets them or keeps them from concentrating. Abuser blames their partner for practically anything and everything that goes wrong.
> 
> 8.	Hypersensitivity: Abusers can be extra sensitive and may explode when they suspect an attack.
> Signs: Easily insulted. Claims feeling "hurt" when really feels anger. Takes the slightest set back as personal attacks. Will "rant and rave" about the injustice of things that have happened, things that are really just part of living like being asked to help with chores.
> 
> 11.	Verbal Abuse: Abuse is not only physical. Abusers will often criticize and demean their partners.
> Signs: Says cruel and hurtful things. Constantly degrades their partner. Curses. Belittles accomplishments. Says their partner is stupid and incapable of functioning without them. Very critical about everything.
> 
> 
> 13.	Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde: This is a reference to a fictional character that had both a "good" and "evil" side.
> Signs: Sudden changes in mood, a "roller coaster of emotions." Explosiveness. One-minute the abuser is nice and the next minute there is an explosion.
> 
> 15.	Threats of Violence: Threats are meant to control and manipulate. Threats can also be illegal.
> Signs: Threatens, "I'll slap your mouth off", "I'll kill you", or "I'll break your neck". Excuses threats saying, "everybody talks like that."
> 
> 16.	Breaking or Striking Objects: Used as a punishment, to terrorize and threaten the partner into submission.
> Signs: Beats on tables with fists. Throws objects near their partner. Breaks partner's special possessions.



My dad has those. Hence my mom kicked him out the house when I was 1 years old (only was together a couple of years). The final straw was when he threw a dining chair at her and she had to get out the way, he'd never actually done anything violent towards her before that, with the exception of putting his fist to her face telling her "you need some of this" just when she would complain about his possessive or lazy behaviour. In response my mom just said "go on then" but he never did. She's tough, she was brought up in a home where her father beat up her mother, and so she swore never to have that ever again repeated in her own home and she didn't want her kids brought up in a violent household, like she was. After he gone, she ending up over eating, becoming overweight and almost having a breakdown living with him. 

He doesn't see his own faults or problems. He had a bad and abusive upbringing, physically and mentally abused by his mother, witnessed his own father getting stabbed with a kitchen knife by her, has learning difficulties and a lot of insecurity, he is actually well meaning at heart and does have a moral center, but... doesn't have control of himself, his temper, sensitivities or doesn't see these bad sides to himself. An ENFP type 8 I think. 

He would get mad at my mom just talking in general to other guys, innocently, calling her a whore etc, also would question why she had to spend so much time wanting to go shopping with her sister and mother

Also stalked my mom for years after they broke up, look out the window he was randomly standing there, or following her around town, very possessive. Doesn't anymore, but it went on a while. I also saw violence for myself in infancy, when I would go and visit that side of the family on weekends, they'd often fight or argue, which was scary for me at that age, and because I was used to living in a peaceful home, just my mom and two older sisters (who share a different father to me). I'v always swore that I'd never be like him in these ways.


----------



## avantgardenia

This thread hit home for me. 

Just got out of a situation and I thank all of my lucky stars that it never got the chance to progress to physical violence. Not to say that there wasn't any damage, because sometimes the damage isn't immediately apparent. You never expect to end up in a situation like this until you're in it. I was in denial the entire time, but I knew in my gut that something was very wrong. Always listen to that gut feeling. It will literally save your life.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Ace Face said:


> And the worst part is that this sort of thing happens all the time. So many people accept abuse and crumbs of love. It's sad :/


Well for me; I wasn't capable of accepting anything better until I was able to face my mother's emotional abuse and move past it. Only once I came to the determination that I never deserved any of it, was I truly able to have actual self-respect and demand it from others.


----------



## Chesire Tower

1, 2, 6, 7, 11, 13.


----------



## SgtPepper

110% certified assman, but(t) boobs are nice too. ;-)


----------



## Learned

These are valuable to examine. Thank you


----------



## Mystic MagentaRose




----------



## Scoobyscoob

Good list! MagentaRose's graphic as well.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

*bump to end abuse*


----------



## Convex

thank you really needed this, girl was a bit jealous i had sex without her, told her she might be abusive


----------



## bucolic

In other words, don't do drugs. But the "8" makes life so interesting.


----------



## Austere

Making sure to not sacrifice friendships and other relationships can help to remind you of who you are. It also helps when people who know you well can identify you becoming unusually stressed or depressed.


----------



## Aarya

Relationship-wise:

I quite frankly believe there is never only one victim with an established relationship. The so-called "abuser" is almost always hurting (unless you meet with labile people) and has learned to protect themselves through a variety of masks and tempers. When one person has different needs and wants but clings to the relationship nevertheless it can become abusive but giving someone the abusive title exclusively is strange. Scream of "special snowflake" to me, unless there is a clear power dynamic that's in one person's disfavor. I am afraid of young people now may take these meanings and definitions to a whole new level of "liberalism" though, and forget where it's wise to take advice from. Explaining somebody it's better to value human presence over games somehow can also be interpreted as emotional abuse nowadays because you are infringing on their right to enjoy themselves and immerse in a virtual experience, or desire to be left alone; and only their parents have the right to tell them otherwise in this area! You horrible, vile thing! 

Some signs from the list can be dealt with, I'll tell you right now. It's a question of patience and whether the partner(s) are open towards learning or not. Now unfortunately, this will be under question and not always the case. It hurts to want to help but not be let... 

Sometimes life can be harsh for some people, so their ability to change sometimes will only be triggered by powerful events or strong wills because of the walls they build. I'd say it's always about context. If the person is ready to do what they are asking of you but you don't feel comfortable with doing it... and if the pattern repeats itself... I wouldn't call the one with the stronger will or with the initiative the abuser at all. 

Eh, I didn't have the best example of a relationship in my parents, but they had strong ups and strong downs. Quite a few elements would be identified as emotionally abusive yet it worked because of will and desire for a family and compliance with cultural norms, as well as help form grandparents and society in general. 

People really forget the role of society in everything; when the community is close-knit the situation changes a little. 2 people alone and by themselves in their own relationship will be very "dumb" in multiple instances... 

I think many would disagree or want to add something onto what I said and I understand why. However.

I also believe from personal observations that too many people tolerate emotional abuse for perks like sex, social status or material advantages. Now that, to me, is a no-no, and reminds me of the monkey documentaries on Nat Geo Wild. It's something that seriously needs to be slowly removed from our societies. There still are general signs of emotional abuse, of course... I think the ones that strike me the most would be aggressiveness in voice or body language, lack of compassion towards your own being and others, and manipulators who don't make it a point to themselves to commit but pretend to be trying, say for sexual perks... 

Friends-only, the most emotionally abusive people I've met have been women unfortunately (but most of my best friends are women too). Some of them are just merciless, and would walk over anybody and shame you in public for petty things to momentarily feel better (from superiority in terms of looks and number of friends or acquaintances to anything, really). Of course, it takes an equally stupid public for this to succeed, but there are enough "shitholes" in every country to fill that role... Or they pretend to be charitable, do something out of the "goodness" of their heart, and then explode when you don't quickly give something in return.


----------



## Mind Prince

Whats the difference between a rapist and an abuser?


----------



## leftover crack

Mind Prince said:


> Whats the difference between a rapist and an abuser?


the abuser flounders around the edges, whereas the rapist goes straight to the point.


----------



## Mind Prince

leftover crack said:


> the abuser flounders around the edges, whereas the rapist goes straight to the point.


How can we decide when the abuser passed the edge? Where exactly is it?


----------



## Skimt

Signs of *abusive women*: 

When she wants to be with you a relatively short time after having broken up with her boyfriend, or when she says that they're on a "break".
When she texts you even though she knows you're a friend of her ex-boyfriend.
When she tries to meet up with you within a relatively short period of time.
When she contacts you first.
When she shows too much interest in you, or too much interest in being with you.
When she talks too much about what she has done or is doing.
When she compliments the way you look and/or your talents.
When she sends you nude pictures you didn't ask for.
When she flat out says that she prefers to hang around attractive people.
When she uses you as a means to get things off her chest about others, her work, or her past.
When gossip, sex, and/or health, or her routines are her main source of communication.
When she doesn't mention anything about contraceptives leading up to sex.
When her decisions affect your life, yet she insist that it only affect hers, implying that her life has more value or meaning.
When she responds with frustration or anger and guilt trips you for speaking up about how her actions make you anxious or ill, invalidating your emotions.
When she uses her friends and/or yours to gaslight and try to make you sound like the abuser, by taking advantage of the fact that you only hear about men being abusers.
When she tries to make that which is subjective sound like consensus.
When she is deliberately vague, or just plain vague.
When she uses rationalization to shove or reflect perceived problems away.
When she creates a topic such as this to hide that she herself is an abuser who relishes attention, status and chaos.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

One of my guy friends was in an abusive relationship with an abusive woman he was living with. He made the typical rationalizations that an abuse victim has like "Oh, she has anxiety." He finally got set up with a different apartment, but he had to stay with me for a couple weeks while they were getting it ready to avoid her in the meantime. A few months later he broke up with his new gf to go out with the abuser again. I was like _facepalm_ "You idiot!", but I didn't say that. So I thought maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they're not living together and around each other 24/7. Fast forward several months and he was planning to move back in with her. _facepalm_ "Omfg you fuckin' idiot!!" I told him "Did it ever occur to you that maybe she's not being abusive because you two aren't under the same roof 24/7?" Duh! I told him I'd have a hard time being sympathetic for him the _2nd_ time. Luckily her apartment building changed their policies and he's not allowed to live with her this time.


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## 1imaan1

I wanna ask something about a person i know.I'll refer to him as A. A's sister is abusive, she threatens her spouse with divorce and abuses so much. What should the spouse do? And what can A can do about his sister?

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## 1imaan1

1imaan1 said:


> I wanna ask something about a person i know.I'll refer to him as A. A's sister is abusive, she threatens her spouse with divorce and abuses so much. What should the spouse do? And what can A can do about his sister?
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_X01AD using Tapatalk


Please can anyone help me with this.
:bump:

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## Rigg

1imaan1 said:


> Please can anyone help me with this.
> :bump:
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_X01AD using Tapatalk



If she really is being abusive, it's best really to maintain an open line of connection with the bloke in the situation. If he opens up about how he feels about the situation a bit of solid advice would go a long way, but never sound like you're trying to interfere with a 

But as for what the bloke can do.... well that's up to him. 
If he thinks it's ok he'll stay.


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## New Englander

"I'll slap your mouth off" ? Hmmm.

Anyway.. . I think consensual kink is ok, though.

Someone who wants to abuse me and who is an "upstanding citizen" thought he could strangle me just because one of my favorite couples on a Soap as a child was a bit problematic. An idea taken from your list. He thinks he is a chivalrist. I was 13 and 14.

This person thought I deserved to be hurt just because I saw a kiss on TV when I was 13 and liked it. And would mock me when I would cry about the clubbed baby seals. He also can't believe that I could go to college and thinks I me a ditz. He thinks he can hurt them because they are evil. He always thinks he has caught me out. He think princess Leia was enslaved for doing something wrong - punishment rather than she was captured trying to rescue her boyfriend.


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## makeup

Another couple of red flags I'd like to point out, coming from personal experience in my previous relationship which was an abusive one:

- Disregarding sexual boundaries, even if they're not physical. My previous relationship was long-distance, and my ex girlfriend would often times disregard the sexual boundaries I laid down (such as asking her not to sext me while I'm in public because I'm not comfortable engaging in that kind of talk in public spaces, continuing to sext me some more after I let her know that I wasn't in the mood, etc.) No one deserves to be treated like that.

- If your partner expresses concern that they fear that they might rape you if they're ever under the influence, run. My ex girlfriend expressed a sentiment like this, and it makes me glad that we were long-distance and never got to meet in person. God knows that she probably would have done it if we were both under the influence together. I waved her concerns off under the impression that if she were to be concerned about it then it wouldn't happen because she'd be cautious enough not to do anything like that, it's surprising I wasn't as alarmed as I should have been.

- If they blame themselves for doing something that hurt you, but to the point that they demonize themselves and say horrible things about themselves to the point that you need to comfort them and hold their hand through it all when they're supposed to be the one doing that after hurting you. My ex did this to me after I'd be hurt by something she did (such as disrespecting a sexual boundary I had laid down), she'd start to talk down on herself and call herself things like an animal and say she's a horrible girlfriend, and that I deserve better. I'd have to focus all my attention on her, when it seriously shouldn't have been like that.

- If you change your pronouns and they look for an excuse not to use them... I don't know if that's abuse per se, but it's shitty behavior. A few months back, I started to go by they/them in addition to she/her, and after I told her about the thoughts I've had about my gender identity (I won't go into it in this thread since it isn't relevant to this issue), she started to ask if she "had" to start calling me they/them in addition to she/her. I told her she didn't have to (I don't want to force anyone) and that I wouldn't want her family to know about this anyhow, but that she could do it online, she started saying things like who does she talk to online etc... I know she doesn't like change, but she seemed to be less than eager after showing me support. It was just kind of shitty and sort of a bad vibe that I let slide too easily, and should have taken that into consideration about how much she really respected me as a person (and I realized that just now as I'm typing this) when she'd also disrespect my boundaries countless times.


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## Aarya

makeup said:


> Another couple of red flags I'd like to point out, coming from personal experience in my previous relationship which was an abusive one:
> 
> - Disregarding sexual boundaries, even if they're not physical. My previous relationship was long-distance, and my ex girlfriend would often times disregard the sexual boundaries I laid down (such as asking her not to sext me while I'm in public because I'm not comfortable engaging in that kind of talk in public spaces, continuing to sext me some more after I let her know that I wasn't in the mood, etc.) No one deserves to be treated like that.


Are you sure it's the act in itself which you find abhorrently disrespectful enough to be mentioned first, or the effects of her subsequent attitude to you not sexting her back due to your various personal reasons, that you find worse?
Essentially, is the act or the effect that has the underlined negative impact on you?



makeup said:


> If your partner expresses concern that they fear that they might rape you if they're ever under the influence, run. My ex girlfriend expressed a sentiment like this, and it makes me glad that we were long-distance and never got to meet in person. God knows that she probably would have done it if we were both under the influence together. I waved her concerns off under the impression that if she were to be concerned about it then it wouldn't happen because she'd be cautious enough not to do anything like that, it's surprising I wasn't as alarmed as I should have been.


So she never ended up accusing you?

I too was with a partner who claimed they felt threatened and upset by the feminist movement, but then ended up accusing me of irrationality and portraying himself as a constant victim whenever I had something that pained me that i wanted to express. The relationship was young and I did not really contextualize his "anti feminist feelings". I thought they were half joking and not important, and that he was right. I had no idea what a profound mark that will leave on my relationship with him, in which, if anything happened that upset me and I expressed it in a direct manner, he would constantly portray himself as the victim (my victim) for not liking him enough or something, instead of solving the actual problem. He'd also tell me I'm too emotional if I wanted to talk about feelings like any emotionally intelligent person. He had an unmovable stance of being rational at all times, non romantic, non feely, etc., and even created mantras for himself and would invoke generational (family) "rational-thinking legacies" to remind himself of daily, to such a degree that it made me think he truly had autism or something similar preventing him from just going mellow on the emotional side of things. They were also coming to me with debate topics such as how women only want to get into non-scientific professional branches, how crying is a cathartic experience only for women, etc.



makeup said:


> - If they blame themselves for doing something that hurt you, but to the point that they demonize themselves and say horrible things about themselves to the point that you need to comfort them and hold their hand through it all when they're supposed to be the one doing that after hurting you. My ex did this to me after I'd be hurt by something she did (such as disrespecting a sexual boundary I had laid down), she'd start to talk down on herself and call herself things like an animal and say she's a horrible girlfriend, and that I deserve better. I'd have to focus all my attention on her, when it seriously shouldn't have been like that.


Ok, unless this was done in mockery of you, unless this was disgenuine or done in a blackmailing kind of way, she truly needed help, Makeup, I am sorry. If someone reaches the degree of hurting themselves repeatedly psychologically or physically after being admonished then there is a negative spinning wheel in there that needs to be stopped or met with some form of love, not "ack I don't want to deal with someone so broken". Or, if you can't deal with it, that's ok if you acknowledge it, but I am not sure how this would be a form of her abusing you.



makeup said:


> If you change your pronouns and they look for an excuse not to use them... I don't know if that's abuse per se, but it's shitty behavior. A few months back, I started to go by they/them in addition to she/her, and after I told her about the thoughts I've had about my gender identity (I won't go into it in this thread since it isn't relevant to this issue), she started to ask if she "had" to start calling me they/them in addition to she/her. I told her she didn't have to (I don't want to force anyone) and that I wouldn't want her family to know about this anyhow, but that she could do it online, she started saying things like who does she talk to online etc... I know she doesn't like change, but she seemed to be less than eager after showing me support. It was just kind of shitty and sort of a bad vibe that I let slide too easily, and should have taken that into consideration about how much she really respected me as a person (and I realized that just now as I'm typing this) when she'd also disrespect my boundaries countless times.


From what you described it sounded like you'd see yourself as caring too much and her caring too little or investing less than you emotionally. I am tempted to say the boundaries thing wasn't a her only thing, imo boundaries are always sort of tested by others and unless they're clear no one knows where they stand.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb

Was just watching on the news, it is reported in Australia that 60% of young women in Australia have experienced sexual violence. That's awful. Especially 60%. They also said middle aged women about 20%? experience it too.

This is just awfully sad. How can we get the message home that no means no.

It makes me sad especially since I have friends and family that have had this type of experience... 😔

I watched it here: (live broadcast)


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## Yowza

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> I've also been told that I have this:
> 
> Complex post-traumatic stress disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Thanks for fucking me up, Brother. Remember, you hurt me because you were never capable of mastering yourself. You were too pathetic and weak to cope with childhood and a brother who wasn't quite normal. You were always called the "best one". You became used to winning. And if you didn't win, you couldn't handle being not the best. So you turned on someone who wouldn't and couldn't fight back. You've used him to get your stress out. You never gave a fuck about what you did to him- about what you made him experience, what it was like to grow up being reminded that you were inferior and could never truly be good enough. Now, I have to cope with you pushing all your problems on me, and I have to deal with growing up and being a slightly abnormal teen who is headed off to college come summer. I hope your girlfriends don't mind being beaten, because once I can get away, I'm never going to willingly see you again, and you'll be all alone, with no way to cope with the stresses of ordinary life. Have fun drowning in the same shit you've been putting me through since elementary school.


That's horrible to hear. How many siblings do you have and are you the youngest? Also is it all over now?


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## Eren Jaegerbomb

What do you do if a man asks you for nudes but...

Idk what to do....

He lives too far away anyway! But I've kind of lead him on... Just for the hell of it ..argh.


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## BlackPersimmon

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> What do you do if a man asks you for nudes but...
> 
> Idk what to do....
> 
> He lives too far away anyway! But I've kind of lead him on... Just for the hell of it ..argh.


I know it's late in this game, but SAY NO. And if he says you led him on, SAY NO EVEN LOUDER! That is abusive.


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## Mystic MagentaRose

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> What do you do if a man asks you for nudes but...
> 
> Idk what to do....
> 
> He lives too far away anyway! But I've kind of lead him on... Just for the hell of it ..argh.


I'm sorry that this happens to you. Block. Ignore. Tell them No!

Just sharing this...

My ex used to ask me for nudes all the time. When I was in my young 20's I thought it was love, but I was so naive then. I'm so glad we're not together anymore because he abused me for six years and I finally broke free of him. Now I'm learning to love myself more and I'm honestly proud of myself.


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