# Would... this be aristocratic in a sense?



## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

It's one of the reinin dichotomies I've had difficultly swallowing in the past. 

But I was wondering if this mindset may correlate with it :

I have a new co-worker at my side job. We're not of the same position (there are three of us : our manager, I'm the supervisor and the new co-worker is an associate. only two of us work together at the same time). I'd like to think of myself as a ... pretty welcoming person. I want her to feel like she belongs in the environment and that her opinions matter. I don't want her to feel like I'm trying to micromanage her (that's my manager's job) and want to give her space. So when I talk to her I try to connect but still have her understand that I will say something if something needs to be said, I'm a polite person but I'm not a soft person. 

But there is a specific thing she does (which she did again today) that just.. irks me. And I realized today that this thing has irked me all my life. It kind of... frustrates me when people don't know their place (that sounds like such a 1900's thing folk would say, oh god lol). There are moments when she will attempt to tell me what to do and it just completely throws me off : I'm above you. You're below me and haven't even been here a month. I'm the one deciding the sequence of how we do things today, not you. I don't say it out loud in such a blunt way, but it's probably clear that it frustrates me to an extent. Things like that usually do. 

Maybe it's just something outside of being aristocratic vs democratic all together. If it is, please let me know?


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

Well, I wouldn't consider it aristocratic in that sense. Democracy is a farce in my mind. I agree with you, though. You are her superior; she should defer to you unless she knows you are incorrect. If I am wrong, I want to be told I am because it helps me learn and grow. If I know better and someone tries to tell me otherwise, I will set the person straight in a flash. 

I also really hate being told what to do. If someone tells me to do something, I won't do it on principle because it infringes upon my autonomy. I'm self employed for a reason and when I'm out on contract, I am given free reign. I am there to fix things. I was hired because of my expertise. I'm correcting the incompetence of those below me. They don't get to talk back to me. Period.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> Well, I wouldn't consider it aristocratic in that sense. Democracy is a farce in my mind. I agree with you, though. You are her superior, she should defer to you unless she knows you are incorrect. If I am wrong, I want to be told I am because it helps me learn and grow. If I know better and someone tries to tell me otherwise, I will set the person straight if a flash.
> 
> I also really hate being told what to do. If someone tells me to do something, I won't do it on principle because it infringes upon my autonomy. I'm self employed for a reason and when I'm out on contract, I am given free reign. I am there to fix things. I was hired because of my expertise. I'm correcting the incompetence of those below me. They don't get to talk back. Period.


Interesting, 
it must be nice to be self employed 
I've never had issues with letting people tell me what to do IF I know they are above me. I'm perfectly fine with following orders if they are given to me by a higher up and aren't too extreme for me to question "wait. WTF are you thinking?"

Though, naturally, I would prefer to make my own decisions and find myself capable of that in most situations.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

This has nothing to do with aristocracy/democracy. It's more related to Ti if it is type related. Chances are that it's not, though.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Entropic said:


> This has nothing to do with aristocracy/democracy. It's more related to Ti if it is type related. Chances are that it's not, though.


Hmm. Makes sense (went back and reread some stuff about it now, can see better why it wouldn't)
Well, I tried. Fail to see how aristocratic can fit other than that meek (and irrelevant) example. 
Interesting that you would correlate it with Ti: I agree that if it is, it would be a very weak one.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I can relate, on so many levels.
Maybe it's the enneagram?


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Amaranthine said:


> I can relate, on so many levels.
> Maybe it's the enneagram?



* *




... are you the Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian/Yugoslavian ENFJ people have been telling me about?



You know. I was thinking this too at some points. I wonder if I feel uncomfortable with it because, in a sense, I take it like a threat : are you questioning my authority, are you trying to prove something? I can get pretty competitive when I sense that people are trying to out-do me, or etc. So maybe, maybe.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

O_o said:


> It's one of the reinin dichotomies I've had difficultly swallowing in the past.
> 
> But I was wondering if this mindset may correlate with it :
> 
> ...


Why is it hard to understand?

Remember what Anakin told in episode two? THAT is an aristo reinin!

("we need a wise and courageous leader who will guide us forth and who will make us strong. The Republic is weak. We need such a man") {or something like that}


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Why is it hard to understand?
> 
> Remember what Anakin told in episode two? THAT is an aristo reinin!
> 
> ("we need a wise and courageous leader who will guide us forth and who will make us strong. The Republic is weak. We need such a man") {or something like that}


It's not hard to understand. It's hard to find a way for me to actually relate to it. Hence my (not relevant) example.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

O_o said:


> It's not hard to understand. It's hard to find a way for me to actually relate to it. Hence my (not relevant) example.


Then if you don't relate to Ani in that scene...you're demo! What's the problem again?


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

O_o said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



* *




People have been talking about me? roud:




It's not necessarily a threat, it's hard to explain.
But part of it is about competition, and power.
Not always in "Are you trying to prove something?" way, often it's "Who do they think they are?" 
I remember in school my best friend didn't help me when I was defending our territory (literally lol) and she just stood there willing to agree to anything because she's so terrified of conflict, and for a while I was so angry because "How does she dare be more afraid of conflict with some nobodies than of ME??? How does she not get what kind of situation she put herself in?"+acting like nothing happened after it was done.
But that's different, I forgave her because I tend to forgive such things, she's hurting herself more than she could ever hurt me. But when it comes to arrogant people I just sometimes help put them back on earth or I ignore and let it happen naturally.
But I am objective about where people's 'place' is, when I look down on people like that I'm usually not the only one so there's really no threat. And when there is threat then it's just regular competition.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

O_o said:


> It's one of the reinin dichotomies I've had difficultly swallowing in the past.
> 
> But I was wondering if this mindset may correlate with it :
> 
> ...


What? None of this has any traits of aristocratic vs Democrat?

If she isn't your assistant, though, she has the right idea and you have the wrong idea. The job of management is to support the workers and ensure that they have the tools, resources, and mindsets to do their job best, which is to produce and make both of you some cash. Can't go around just getting money for telling people what to do. Like... Boss of some farmers... Who is actually growing the rice you eat? It ain't you. So, if a farmer says, hey get us a new tractor. You say, this a good idea? Why? How does this make me eat more rice? I like rice.


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## Another Lost Cause (Oct 6, 2015)

What you wrote would fall under the definition of aristocracy according to the the Reinin dichotomies. It's basically about grouping people according to some schema and expecting them to act within that grouping.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

O_o said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds more like some sort of defence mechanism.
Sure as an INFJ you have this constant aristocratic theme in your worldview,
but to me this just seems like you are trying to protect your domain so to speak.
You don't want your collegue to usurp your defacto power.
Never mind what title people have.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Another Lost Cause said:


> What you wrote would fall under the definition of aristocracy according to the the Reinin dichotomies. It's basically about grouping people according to some schema and expecting them to act within that grouping.


So basically it covers any person involved in Typology, every person on this forum. Since this entire subject is about grouping people according to some schema and believing they act accordingly. It is a belief one must have to even pick up this subject. How could it possibly be a trait of only one group of types?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Another Lost Cause said:


> What you wrote would fall under the definition of aristocracy according to the the Reinin dichotomies. It's basically about grouping people according to some schema and expecting them to act within that grouping.


Except I'd argue this doesn't apply to the OP. Aristocracy is more about seeing people according to a social role. That's a cat person, that's a dog person, that's a family man. I don't see any inferences to this in the OP, from either side. The OP seems to touch on two IEs, Se and Ti. Se in the sense of seeking/opposing power, and Ti, in the sense of understanding hierarchy and structure. Se and Ti when blocked together leads to an aristocratic mentality, but I do not believe the OP is an aristocrat. It could be that the person the OP is annoyed of is an aristocrat, but without knowing the motivations behind the behavior, this is difficult to tell. 

People recognizing their place within a hierarchy or system has nothing to do with aristocracy, because that's not really how aristocracy as a mentality works. If that's true, then democrats could never work within any kind of hierarchical environment (true democracy doesn't exist, imo), which is bullshit. Of course they can and it's not like they naturally rebel against it just because that environment exists. Gammas work very well within hierarchies by using the hierarchical system against itself. Se + Te valuing makes gammas good at exploiting systematic weaknesses for their own benefit. The only quadra that would be strongly openly against social hierarchy is probably alpha, in that alpha has a tendency to think of everyone as equals (Ne + Fe), and that social hierarchy is too constricting of people's potential to think freely. They will recognize hierarchy if it benefits them, but there's a reason MBTI INTP descriptions tend to go on tangents why INTPs don't understand authority unless the role of the authority is made explicitly clear. Compare to delta, that actually enjoys _some_ hierarchy because by knowing the system and the rules that govern it, you know how to slot people into roles so they can fully utilize their untapped inner potential (again, because that's a dog person, that's a cat person, that's a family man). 

If anything, _if _I have to place the ability to recognize one's place in a hierarchy under any kind of typology system, it relates to the social instinct in the enneagram or possibly the DCNH subtypes (D and N are the most "rule-abiding" when it comes group work and enjoy operating within the hierarchy, and C and to a degree H, are the most "rule-bending"). When looking at what the social instinct does, for example, is that it brings recognition of the group and the social situation you are in and your place within that group. When you know your place, you know how to survive as a group unit. The most clear example of this is the military. You could argue that the military with its ranks, is also an Se + Ti kind of system, but valuing Se + Ti does not mean that you adhere to, recognize and find the Se + Ti system legitimate (I'd argue almost all social systems we have today are systems originally made by betas, as deltas can only finetune it to better suit people's needs). Often, Se + Ti does the very opposite, wanting to dismantle known systems and replace it with its own. That's why beta quadra is understood as the most rebellious quadra. Se creates an innate drive to oppose or work against opposition, and Ti wants to enforce a systematic understanding which means replacing one system with new a one. Alpha does this too in exactly the same way, but not with people but with ideas. Just like how delta improves upon beta systems, gamma improves upon alpha understanding (Te cannot create its own systems but only work with what exists and make those more efficient). 

Understanding hierarchy and respecting authority is not socionics related.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Only me or does this sound Se- valued? '_Building a hierarchy_, looking for vulnerable spots".

Spins: 
Alpha: Si-, Ne+, Fe+, Ti-.
Beta: Ni+, *Se-*, Fe-, Ti+.
Gamma:Ni-, Se+, Fi+, Te-.
Delta: Si+, Ne-, Fi-, Te+.

tbh would not get surprised if aristocratic is directly linked to 'extroverted perceiving - function'.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

FearAndTrembling said:


> So basically it covers any person involved in Typology, every person on this forum. Since this entire subject is about grouping people according to some schema and believing they act accordingly. It is a belief one must have to even pick up this subject. How could it possibly be a trait of only one group of types?


Democracy is the inability to accept groupings of people, which leads to an obsession of groupings of people to try and prove the individual. Aristocracy accepts both the groupings and the individual, so they just go with the flow of both existing. Democratic introverts are especially obsessed with the need to prove their own existence as "unique" to "explain away" their personal failures. The aristocratic introverts, on the other hand, attempt to prove that there is no difference.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@Entropic

Hey, sorry for bothering you, but could you explain this?



> Understanding hierarchy and respecting authority is not socionics related.


These are described as Ti and Se. With Ti being the structure, and Se being the levels of structure. I can understand the "authority" part, potentially, but the "understanding" part seems like either Ti or Se PoLR would be unable to "understand" accurately.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Democracy is the inability to accept groupings of people, which leads to an obsession of groupings of people to try and prove the individual. Aristocracy accepts both the groupings and the individual, so they just go with the flow of both existing. Democratic introverts are especially obsessed with the need to prove their own existence as "unique" to "explain away" their personal failures. The aristocratic introverts, on the other hand, attempt to prove that there is no difference.


So they both end up stereotyping people and reducing them to their respective groups, or to "the other". Which is a universal human trait that has been borne out in experiment. How does Socionics add to this knowledge? Why is it necessary?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @Entropic
> 
> Hey, sorry for bothering you, but could you explain this?
> 
> ...


If you go out and observe people, you will see that most people actually have a basic level of respect for authority and understand social structure. The outliers are very few. Having a disdain for hierarchy and social structure isn't related to anything socionics but other things.

Take a basic elementary classroom. What people tend to rebel against the teacher? Not necessarily the Ne or Fi ego types. In 99% of all cases, they will also be boys. This says way more about social gender expectations than it does cognition.


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