# Manipulation and Fe vs Fi



## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Something that I thought should be addressed: Fe's commonly considered the manipulative function, but Fi can be just as cruel in their pursuit of manipulation. The way Fi and Fe manipulate is different, though.

An Fe manipulates by showing a false selflessness. "I'm doing this for your own good, so don't be ungrateful!", "It's not me who says this is wrong, it's the consensus of the religion/system!", or "Stop being so selfish!" is a common shriek of the unhealthy Fe type. An Fe manipulates by attacking the person's moral character. It puts them in an advantageous position by taking the moral high ground and making them appear like martyrs, and then they expect you to take your part in acting "good" by conforming.

An Fi manipulates by showing false victimization. "You did this to me!", "You're taking away my freedom/individuality!", and "You don't care/understand how I feel!" is a common shriek of the unhealthy Fi. An Fi manipulates by attacking the person's ability to sympathize. It puts them in an advantageous position by painting them as victims to your cruel treatment, thus making you feel guilt and acquiesce to their concerns out of a feeling of pity.

So, typing someone as Fe because they're manipulative is a bad idea, especially when both Fi and Fe are good at manipulating others for their own gain.

Another point I should make: The example quotes I made are not solely for manipulation. An Fe may truly be accurate when accusing you of being selfish, or you may truly be stifling an Fi's individuality and freedom to be who they are. So, don't shoot from the hip when you accuse people of manipulation, but also be wary of these manipulation techniques.


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

It definitely does manifest itself in both Fe and Fi types*, even if Fe types do tend to get the short end of the stick.

*See my unhealthy INFP mother, my ESTJ father. Heck, even I've been accused of it, although if I was being emotionally manipulative it was very unintentional.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Interesting. For the record, as an Fe user, I can tell you that there have been many, many, many times where I've done the "trust me, this is for your own good" routine to get someone to go along with something, and while I've also played the victim in the past, doing so always leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I don't like to pretend to be a victim (unless it's absolutely necessary); if I want something, I'd rather get it with my pride intact.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Great post.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Dark Romantic said:


> Interesting. For the record, as an Fe user, I can tell you that there have been many, many, many times where I've done the "trust me, this is for your own good" routine to get someone to go along with something, and while I've also played the victim in the past, doing so always leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I don't like to pretend to be a victim (unless it's absolutely necessary); if I want something, I'd rather get it with my pride intact.


That's because Fe hates the idea of being selfish and a burden.

Similarly, Fi hates the idea of making others conform.

These manipulation techniques manipulate the self as much as the people around them. Fe's get to keep the image of being selfless, and Fi's get to keep the impression that they aren't stifling other people's morality. Ironically, in a more than a few cases of manipulative behavior, they tend to be doing the thing that they tried to avoid.


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## Monty (Jul 12, 2011)

This is interesting! I could really relate to the Fe description... I've said those exact words before...
It seems like Fe and Fi would conflict with each other.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Torai said:


> That's because Fe hates the idea of being selfish and a burden.


I never really thought of it like that; I definitely know I don't like to think of myself as a burden, but I haven't really looked at it as an unwillingness to appear selfish. I suppose that _could_ be part of it; I don't like selfishness beyond reason in anyone, so I doubt I'd really like to see it in myself.



> These manipulation techniques manipulate the self as much as the people around them.


So true.



> Fe's get to keep the image of being selfless


Probably more of a priority with Fe-doms or auxiliaries; I'm an Fe-tert, so appearing selfless isn't as important, in my case, as keeping my pride intact.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

Torai said:


> Something that I thought should be addressed: Fe's commonly considered the manipulative function, but Fi can be just as cruel in their pursuit of manipulation. The way Fi and Fe manipulate is different, though.
> 
> An Fe manipulates by showing a false selflessness. "I'm doing this for your own good, so don't be ungrateful!", "It's not me who says this is wrong, it's the consensus of the religion/system!", or "Stop being so selfish!" is a common shriek of the unhealthy Fe type. An Fe manipulates by attacking the person's moral character. It puts them in an advantageous position by taking the moral high ground and making them appear like martyrs, and then they expect you to take your part in acting "good" by conforming.
> 
> ...


i thought the "bad" side of Fe was the ability or the attempt to paint something in a different light in order to make one think that they were wrong to instill guilt, and upon feeling guilt they would be more likely to do what the Fe-user wanted. 

or am i combining Fe with another function whereas you're trying to zoom out and show the basics of extroverted feeling without the interactions of its surrounding tools?


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

celticstained said:


> i thought the "bad" side of Fe was the ability or the attempt to paint something in a different light in order to make one think that they were wrong to instill guilt, and upon feeling guilt they would be more likely to do what the Fe-user wanted.
> 
> or am i combining Fe with another function whereas you're trying to zoom out and show the basics of extroverted feeling without the interactions of its surrounding tools?


Both Fi and Fe instill guilt by painting the situation to make the other person "wrong".

Fe tries to make you think you were wrong in a more generalized sense, usually by showing you how "self-seeking" you are.

Fi tries to make you think you were wrong in a more contextual sense, usually by showing you how "insensitive" you are to their feelings.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I can definately identify with this, in myself and in my observations of others. I think it's one of those things we often complain about in eachother.


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## Misha (Dec 18, 2011)

Torai said:


> Fe tries to make you think you were wrong in a more generalized sense, usually by showing you how "self-seeking" you are.
> 
> Fi tries to make you think you were wrong in a more contextual sense, usually by showing you how "insensitive" you are to their feelings.


During a spat between Fe vs. Fi, Fi can triumph easily through guilt-tripping in the end. Fe may fall into either feeling terribly guilty of their outspoken Fe, or they will resort into the role of martyrs when doubting Fi's manipulation.

Both aren't pretty.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Misha said:


> During a spat between Fe vs. Fi, Fi can triumph easily through guilt-tripping in the end. Fe may fall into either feeling terribly guilty of their outspoken Fe, or they will resort into the role of martyrs when doubting Fi's manipulation.
> 
> Both aren't pretty.


There's a third option you are forgetting. Fe manipulation is more dangerous than you think. Fe's can not only do this kind of manipulation to you, but they can turn the group against you. Fe's are generally more skilled in crowd manipulation than Fi's. Now, this serves two benefits for the Fe. They can threaten a sort of ostracism, and they have a false "consensus" brought through manipulation.

Fe seems pretty weak in manipulation, until you realize they're not alone.


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## Zero11 (Feb 7, 2010)

Torai said:


> That's because Fe hates the idea of being selfish and a burden.
> 
> Similarly, Fi hates the idea of making others conform.


Fi: It depends:dry:

Fe: :crazy:


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Dark Romantic said:


> Probably more of a priority with Fe-doms or auxiliaries; I'm an Fe-tert, so appearing selfless isn't as important, in my case, as keeping my pride intact.


While I don't need to "appear" that way, I like being selfless (when it isn't giving up my own stuff, like I have done in the past, and it's a big no-no) because it makes me feel good. Of course, I'm sure it's just the high of an ego-boost, but I truly enjoy it.



Torai said:


> Fe seems pretty weak in manipulation, until you realize they're not alone.


Muahahahahahahaha :ninja:


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Are you specifically referring to Feeler as a dominant or auxiliary function ? 

I`m fi and don`t relate to any of it - I would never use feelings for manipulation and would never let someone get away with emotionally blackmailing me either - spot it a mile off. I can and have manipulated/maneuvered through logically stripping a stance apart and exposing arguments based on personal subjective feelings presented as facts.

It is very rare that any one knows my feelings in an official capacity without them being supported by a logical stance. For example if I see a person or an organisation avoiding their responsibilities by clouding discussions with emotions. 

So just wondering whether you are saying in your opinion it relates to 3rd and 4th position functions also.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Are you specifically referring to Feeler as a dominant or auxiliary function ?
> 
> I`m fi and don`t relate to any of it - I would never use feelings for manipulation and would never let someone get away with emotionally blackmailing me either - spot it a mile off. I can and have manipulated/maneuvered through logically stripping a stance apart and exposing arguments based on personal subjective feelings presented as facts.
> 
> ...


Yeah, in unhealthy representations.

First of all, Fi and Fe don't normally manipulate. I'm simply pointing out the ways emotional manipulation generally happens in terms of the Feeling functions. And, second of all, it does happen to people with Fi or Fe in their third and fourth positions. It may not be as common in T's as opposed to F's, but it still happens. Just like when an Ni-dom has a fight-or-flight response due to a stress-released impulse of inferior Se. Just because we ignore certain functions doesn't mean they're not inside of us. In fact, the more we ignore them, the worse off we really are in handling them.

I do admit, I'm making an evaluation based on a combination of reading cognitive function descriptions across the web and adding in a mix of subjective logic(Ti) to make a hypothesis.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Torai said:


> There's a third option you are forgetting. Fe manipulation is more dangerous than you think. Fe's can not only do this kind of manipulation to you, but they can turn the group against you. Fe's are generally more skilled in crowd manipulation than Fi's. Now, this serves two benefits for the Fe. They can threaten a sort of ostracism, and they have a false "consensus" brought through manipulation.
> 
> Fe seems pretty weak in manipulation, until you realize they're not alone.


Fe doesn't seem weak in manipulation from my experience, that are masters at it. This is a classic example actually, thanks for posting it. I must bookmark it for future reference , never know when i may need it


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

@Torai


> Ni-dom has a fight-or-flight response due to a stress-released impulse of inferior Se.


This bit is interesting also: ironically it is when I see potential damage being done to a person emotionally by another - and this could be a big issue (abuse of power) or a shop assistant ignoring a timid person in a queue - that I get triggered and my feelings are aroused.


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## MCRTS (Jul 4, 2011)

Interesting. For an F type, I'm pretty bad at manipulation. I have no idea how to do it.


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

Torai said:


> There's a third option you are forgetting. Fe manipulation is more dangerous than you think. Fe's can not only do this kind of manipulation to you, but they can turn the group against you. Fe's are generally more skilled in crowd manipulation than Fi's. Now, this serves two benefits for the Fe. They can threaten a sort of ostracism, and they have a false "consensus" brought through manipulation.
> 
> Fe seems pretty weak in manipulation, until you realize they're not alone.


This makes a lot of sense, actually; I could see (and I've heard stories of) how an unhealthy Fe-user can use their gift of immediately finding rapport with the group to turn the whole world against someone. I think that might be more dangerous with an unhealthy Fe dom, since they'll be naturally used to using their Fe to tap into the feelings of those around them and would be able to keep it up almost indefinitely without much effort, since they gain energy by using that function. An Fe-tert, such as myself, might be able to do that in the short term, but would probably not have the energy to keep it up for a significant amount of time.


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## Stanley309 (Dec 22, 2011)

Everybody manipulates others to a certain degree, thats an important trait in evolution. Just the frequence varies: Judgers (Fe/Te) got a higher desire to modify the external world, perceivers (Fi/Ti) are more adaptable and in average less manipulative.



> Interesting. For an F type, I'm pretty bad at manipulation. I have no idea how to do it.​


You do a lot of manipulation subconsciously.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

This is exactly what I think. I've seen it motion.



Torai said:


> Both Fi and Fe instill guilt by painting the situation to make the other person "wrong".
> 
> Fe tries to make you think you were wrong in a more generalized sense, usually by showing you how "self-seeking" you are.
> 
> Fi tries to make you think you were wrong in a more contextual sense, usually by showing you how "insensitive" you are to their feelings.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Sepa said:


> Everybody manipulates others to a certain degree, thats an important trait in evolution. Just the frequence varies: Judgers (Fe/Te) got a higher desire to modify the external world, perceivers (Fi/Ti) are more adaptable and in average less manipulative.


Eh... No.

Je (Fe/Te) is not necessarily manipulative or controlling in nature. Although Je goes by a consistent model for the outside world, whether moral(Fe) or logical(Te), this does not necessarily equal a higher propensity for manipulation. J's do not desire to modify the outside world, as you say. They want things to follow certain models. This does not always mean imposing rules. In fact, as a J, I hate the imposing of rigid rules to take away anyone's autonomy. Keep in mind, this is still an externally consistent moral standard(Fe). But it gives freedom instead of taking it away. It is the opposite of controlling.

And Ji(Fi/Ti) is, in a lot of ways, unadaptable. Ji goes by a consistent model for their internal world... An Fi dominant will reject any external moral philosophy that does not match up with their identity gained through their own personal life experiences, because moral philosophies to them are completely internal and emotionally based.

Manipulation can come from Fi just as easily as Fe. A lot of manipulation comes from conditioning and having behaviors rewarded.

An Fe in this case will see that framing the other person as selfish instills guilt, thereby enabling them getting what they want.

An Fi in this case will see that expressing their hurt and anguish instills guilt, and it also enables them getting what they want.


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## goodgracesbadinfluence (Feb 28, 2011)

I agree wholeheartedly. Like, not even just when they're actually trying to manipulate you. That's HOW they manipulate you. Like, I'm pretty sure my grandma was an ESFJ and she pulled stuff like the OP described all the time. My mom is an ISFJ and she does that sometimes too. Like, "Oh, the church says this is right and you're wrong for believing otherwise. I didn't make this up." 

I'm Fe inferior, so I don't really do that. But my manipulation is a lot more strategic and based on the individual.


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

When I clicked on this thread based on the thread title alone, I was thinking, 'lol no way, I can't believe a Fi would emotionally manipulate!'

Then as I got to the third paragraph..."You did this to me!", hmmm nope, "You're taking away my freedom/individuality!", nah not really.. "You don't care/understand how I feel!" OH DURN you just got me! :blushes:

I don't think I said exactly that in a long time or even very often at all, but when I was younger I used to say something very similar ALL THE TIME to my parents: "You don't love me!", "I KNOW that you love [name of my sibling] more than me!", "If I die, you'll be SORRY!". I usually spat those out as well, in a very spiteful tone.

I don't know why I was so angry and vindictive towards my parents, but I remember one of the common themes running through my childhood is the feeling that I've been done wrong, that I'm not being loved enough, that I was dispensable/replaceable and that I didn't matter.


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## Misha (Dec 18, 2011)

Torai said:


> An Fe in this case will see that framing the other person as selfish instills guilt, thereby enabling them getting what they want.
> 
> An Fi in this case will see that expressing their hurt and anguish instills guilt, and it also enables them getting what they want.



Brilliantly phrased.

Usually during an emotional spat between Fe and Fi users, it's more likely a Fe user will start framing through guilt-tripping. Then when a Fi user retaliates, they are mastered at emphasizing on their victim role imposed by Fe users, also through guilt-tripping.

This is when Fe users will either being convinced (feeling guilty) or enraged (feeling manipulated) by Fi users retaliation. Which will leave Fe users to forcefully end the conflict from Fi users by distancing themselves.

Basically, Fi users tend to be on the upper-hand if they chose to engage in a fight with Fe users, based on my experience.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Kayness said:


> When I clicked on this thread based on the thread title alone, I was thinking, 'lol no way, I can't believe a Fi would emotionally manipulate!'
> 
> Then as I got to the third paragraph..."You did this to me!", hmmm nope, "You're taking away my freedom/individuality!", nah not really.. "You don't care/understand how I feel!" OH DURN you just got me! :blushes:
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I realize it probably needs a little bit of rephrasing, since I don't understand Fi from a personal point of view, and a lot of my writing is based on Ni speculation. I realize I still see it through my Fe/Ti lens, so any help from Fi users on the phrasing would be ideal. And I realize I may have my biases or a plain lack of understanding, because I'm an Fe/Ti user.


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## Metanoia (Nov 21, 2011)

I have an Fi observation that may add to this theory... 

Fi can be very stubborn/prideful--digging in its heels to resist the 'communal' norms that the Fe considers so important, because Fi "feels" like doing whatever it is. And if Fi wants to do something, which let's assume isn't directly harming someone else, why should there even be another argument? Why should the Fi do anything other than what it wants? To desire the opposite is coercion, and often the Fi then accuses the Fe of manipulation, thus fostering guilt that Fe would want/suggest something other than what Fi feels like doing.

Alas, I know how frustrating the clash between Fi and Fe can be...


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## LotusBlossom (Apr 2, 2011)

Torai said:


> Thanks for this. I realize it probably needs a little bit of rephrasing, since I don't understand Fi from a personal point of view, and a lot of my writing is based on Ni speculation. I realize I still see it through my Fe/Ti lens, so any help from Fi users on the phrasing would be ideal. And I realize I may have my biases or a plain lack of understanding, because I'm an Fe/Ti user.


I think you have very good grasp and understand how a Fi user's mind work, and I'm sure your other examples that I didn't quite relate to will speak more to another Fi user. I think there are a few more factors involved, like our relationship with our parents and dynamics within the family...I guess!


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

elemental said:


> I have an Fi observation that may add to this theory...
> 
> Fi can be very stubborn/prideful--digging in its heels to resist the 'communal' norms that the Fe considers so important, because Fi "feels" like doing whatever it is. And if Fi wants to do something, which let's assume isn't directly harming someone else, why should there even be another argument? Why should the Fi do anything other than what it wants? To desire the opposite is coercion, and often the Fi then accuses the Fe of manipulation, thus fostering guilt that Fe would want/suggest something other than what Fi feels like doing.
> 
> Alas, I know how frustrating the clash between Fi and Fe can be...


Ok, so I'm definitely an ENTP, but your description here reminds me of how me and my INFJ mother would clash... would you say it's possible that I would go to my shadow in a negative conflict? Or perhaps I just naturally took the "opposing" stance? Or maybe Fe was just sorta mimicking Fi with me [read: I'm special] in that instance? I've been trying to understand the cognitive functions (especially my less developed ones) better, so any elaboration or insight would be greatly appreciated!

(*side note: I did test as ENFP when I was younger)


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

Interesting information on this thread. I have recently come to the conclusion that the development of Fe past a rudimentary level (a level used for basic understanding of others' feelings "in the moment") is of little use outside of manipulation, but haven't performed any research into that theory.

I haven't considered Fi in that equation, however I can see it just as easily, and have seen manipulative actions from both Fe and Fi users.


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## Stanley309 (Dec 22, 2011)

Torai said:


> J's do not desire to modify the outside world, as you say. They want things to follow certain models.


The desire to modify the outside world is connected causal with the second sentence. 


> In fact, as a J, I hate the imposing of rigid rules to take away anyone's autonomy. Keep in mind, this is still an externally consistent moral standard(Fe). But it gives freedom instead of taking it away. It is the opposite of controlling.


Yes, and when somebody threatens your moral standard by imposing rigid rules you want to avoid it, dont you? And as long you want something to change, you will manipulate automatically the involved people. 

Beside that, your model for the external world includes way more than widely defined moral standards - in some cases Js can be very nit-picking. 



> But it gives freedom instead of taking it away. It is the opposite of controlling.


The output of your behaviour might give freedom, but normally your interactions with people is more manipulative than Ps interactions. 



> And Ji(Fi/Ti) is, in a lot of ways, unadaptable. Ji goes by a consistent model for their internal world...


But are more adaptable and laid-back when it comes to live with external aspects which might not fit with their ideals. In fact INFPs tend to become apathetic and in tendence an INFJ have to be careful not becoming too critical. Here you can compare MBTI-type correlations with Enneagram-types: INFPs for instance score more on type 9, whereas INFJs like all Js score more on type 1 than Ps. 

Dominant Fi users become really committed and manipulative when they're angry and tap into their Te (see Kayness post). 




> An Fi in this case will see that expressing their hurt and anguish instills guilt, and it also enables them getting what they want.


We express our hurt to people who are very near to us. In interactions with our near people we might be as manipulative as a ENFJ and have our own manipulation style, youre right, but we are much more adaptable, reserved and laid-back in public or with people we dont know that well in general. (and as a result less manipulative)


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

Sepa said:


> Yes, and when somebody threatens your moral standard by imposing rigid rules you want to avoid it, dont you? And as long you want something to change, you will manipulate automatically the involved people.


This may be something which some people wish to do, but I prefer showing the person "threatening my moral standards" the reasons behind why I believe their rules are rigid and threatening. Even if they choose to keep a closed mind and refuse to see my side, I will _never_ manipulate them in order for them to go along with my belief, as that is superficial and only gains short term "loyalty;" one must _understand_ the reasons and purpose behind their change and their beliefs, and be open to changing them. Otherwise they have themselves a religion under the guise of their beliefs and feelings, not a moral standard guided by their mind and actual intellectual capability.

Both Fi and Fe dominant users are capable of looking objectively in situations like this, and can choose to consciously override their unconscious desire to manipulate (should that exist), and engage in an active discussion with the other party.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Sepa said:


> The desire to modify the outside world is connected causal with the second sentence.


You got me there. I made a tautological mistake.



> Yes, and when somebody threatens your moral standard by imposing rigid rules you want to avoid it, dont you? And as long you want something to change, you will manipulate automatically the involved people.


I am not that selfish. If someone uses rules that clearly are not beneficial in any way, and only hurts others, that's when I get mad. In fact, getting mad when someone threatens a personal moral standard through rigid rules reeks of Fi.



> Beside that, your model for the external world includes way more than widely defined moral standards - in some cases Js can be very nit-picking.


Actually, my morals are highly simplistic and I hate making assumptions on specific situations. Ni uses a very loose framework, and hates preciseness. My internal moral standards are highly malleable until I know I have a coherent framework. In fact, I have to be careful that I am not manipulated by other's moral standards. As a result, I'm very bipartisan on a lot of things, because I don't know the whole issue.



> The output of your behaviour might give freedom, but normally your interactions with people is more manipulative than Ps interactions.


Generalized statement. In fact, my biggest problem was being too accommodating and letting others manipulate me.



> But are more adaptable and laid-back when it comes to live with external aspects which might not fit with their ideals. In fact INFPs tend to become apathetic and in tendence an INFJ have to be careful not becoming too critical. Here you can compare MBTI-type correlations with Enneagram-types: INFPs for instance score more on type 9, whereas INFJs like all Js score more on type 1 than Ps.


INFJ's are still highly likely to be Type 9. In fact, I am one of those INFJ Type 9's.

Also, have you seen a Type 4 NFP? Those guys spit venom.



> Dominant Fi users become really committed and manipulative when they're angry and tap into their Te (see Kayness post).


It's not always anger that Fi uses to manipulate. Any negative emotion can be used, as long as it is shows the other person that sensibilities were offended.



> We express our hurt to people who are very near to us. In interactions with our near people we might be as manipulative as a ENFJ and have our own manipulation style, youre right, but we are much more adaptable, reserved and laid-back in public or with people we dont know that well in general. (and as a result less manipulative)


But INFP's generally tend to have high moral standards for their close friends and family. While it is true that Fe is more manipulative with people they don't know, Fi can be highly manipulative with people they do know, questioning the quality of their internal morality and sympathy. Both have good reasons, too. You can't see it as black-and-white manipulation. Fe rallies people for a common cause, and defines it through the cooperation of the masses. Fi has a high internal moral standard, and looks to the soul for moral quality. Good functions, bad output.


I apologize if I offended you in a certain way. None of this was meant to do anything of the sort, and was simply written to look for a better understanding of each function and how they manipulate.

Also, can we not debate too long? Considering my history, I'll generally become passive-aggressive or just "check out" in the middle.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

possiBri said:


> Ok, so I'm definitely an ENTP, but your description here reminds me of how me and my INFJ mother would clash... would you say it's possible that I would go to my shadow in a negative conflict? Or perhaps I just naturally took the "opposing" stance? Or maybe Fe was just sorta mimicking Fi with me [read: I'm special] in that instance? I've been trying to understand the cognitive functions (especially my less developed ones) better, so any elaboration or insight would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> (*side note: I did test as ENFP when I was younger)


Something people tend to neglect is that Ti and Fe clash a lot.

A couple of examples:

I remember my INTP brother and I getting into a sort of fight because I chose to believe the majority opinion, and didn't really trust my own logic.

There was this ENTP who would nitpick at everything I said in a debate, while forming crappy arguments of her own. Not being mentally quick as her (doesn't always mean intelligent), I would lose the debate from mental exhaustion.


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## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Torai said:


> There was this ENTP who would nitpick at everything I said in a debate, while forming crappy arguments of her own. Not being mentally quick as her (doesn't always mean intelligent), I would lose the debate from mental exhaustion.


That's it! I remember times when my mom would feel like I was in "lawyer mode" and she would just get flustered and not talk to me anymore. Thanks for that perspective =]


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## Thorgar (Apr 3, 2010)

Torai said:


> Thanks for this. I realize it probably needs a little bit of rephrasing, since I don't understand Fi from a personal point of view, and a lot of my writing is based on Ni speculation. I realize I still see it through my Fe/Ti lens, so any help from Fi users on the phrasing would be ideal. And I realize I may have my biases or a plain lack of understanding, because I'm an Fe/Ti user.


_"You did this to me!"_ Nope. It has to implicate an alleged negative intention or moral failing of the manipulatee, not a negative result

_"You're taking away my freedom/individuality!"_ Same problem. 

_"You don't care/understand how I feel!" _ This one works because it implies the person is violating their own internal moral code. Thus, it only works on people who do actually care about you, ironically. 

To me, Fi manipulation seems to be all about figuring out the other's internal values and accusing them of having violated them to your detriment. The goal is to induce guilt. 

Fe seems more about accusing the target of violating external standards. That's when Fi starts complaining about "You're taking away my freedom/individuality!" You might hear it from a Fi user in response to a manipulation attempt by an Fe user. It is not a manipulation attempt itself.


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## sts06 (Aug 12, 2010)

Misha said:


> This is when Fe users will either being convinced (feeling guilty) or enraged (feeling manipulated) by Fi users retaliation. Which will leave Fe users to forcefully end the conflict from Fi users by distancing themselves.


Wow this is exactly what happened when I had a fight with an ENFP. They, knowing me well, pulled out the 'these feelings you are expressing are hurting me' card, thus sending me into a spiral of guilt because to me hurting someone else is the worst thing I can do. In retrospect I find myself still feeling the guilt from that and also feeling horribly annoyed by the manipulation. They got what they wanted - to avoid any more conflict by getting me to leave the room to avoid feeling the guilt anymore.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Torai said:


> Something that I thought should be addressed: Fe's commonly considered the manipulative function, but Fi can be just as cruel in their pursuit of manipulation. The way Fi and Fe manipulate is different, though.
> An Fe manipulates by showing a false selflessness. "I'm doing this for your own good, so don't be ungrateful!", "It's not me who says this is wrong, it's the consensus of the religion/system!", or "Stop being so selfish!" is a common shriek of the unhealthy Fe type. An Fe manipulates by attacking the person's moral character. It puts them in an advantageous position by taking the moral high ground and making them appear like martyrs, and then they expect you to take your part in acting "good" by conforming.


yes



> An Fi manipulates by showing false victimization. "You did this to me!", "You're taking away my freedom/individuality!", and "You don't care/understand how I feel!" is a common shriek of the unhealthy Fi. An Fi manipulates by attacking the person's ability to sympathize. It puts them in an advantageous position by painting them as victims to your cruel treatment, thus making you feel guilt and acquiesce to their concerns out of a feeling of pity.


Fi users do this, but it isn't a manipulation thing, it's a venting thing. Fe users on the other hand use it for manipulation purposes "you should be ashamed of yourself for being selfish and hurting me!" Fi users are not prone to guilt tripping. protesting someone stepping on your freedom is an assertion of boundaries, not manipulation. manipulation is using deception to get someone to do something; the former is directly telling someone to stop. 



> So, typing someone as Fe because they're manipulative is a bad idea, especially when both Fi and Fe are good at manipulating others for their own gain.


when I think manipulation, I think Je (Te or Fe)



> Another point I should make: The example quotes I made are not solely for manipulation. An Fe may truly be accurate when accusing you of being selfish, or you may truly be stifling an Fi's individuality and freedom to be who they are. So, don't shoot from the hip when you accuse people of manipulation, but also be wary of these manipulation techniques.


agreed


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Fi users do this, but it isn't a manipulation thing, it's a venting thing. Fe users on the other hand use it for manipulation purposes "you should be ashamed of yourself for being selfish and hurting me!" Fi users are not prone to guilt tripping. protesting someone stepping on your freedom is an assertion of boundaries, not manipulation. manipulation is using deception to get someone to do something; the former is directly telling someone to stop.


No, you clearly don't get Fe users if you think that. Fe users usually just attack the action in terms of whether it was good or evil according to social norms and _how you appear_. We don't show our hurt. It makes us _appear_ like whiny victims. 

Fe manipulates mainly by attacking appearances and actions, Fi manipulates by attacking the person's inner morality and sensitivity.

Certain types of people who manipulate think they're simply expressing their feelings. To be honest, some feelings are better left unsaid for the good of the unit. For example, if an abusive, insane person expresses their feelings... I've seen this behavior in unhealthy Fi users. It's pretty damn clear who's the manipulator when one person has the voice of being the victim to the other's "insensitivity". 

Most Fe users can hardly even stomach using that, due to the appearance we would give off of paying attention solely to our own needs.

I'm not saying all Fi's are manipulative or no Fe types manipulate. Nor am I saying Fe types aren't selfish, we just don't want to _appear_ that way. I am definitely willing to admit the faults of my own type. But it's incredibly shortsighted to say that there's no possibility of an Fi being manipulative, especially when a lot of people who manipulate are in denial of their own manipulation.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Torai said:


> No, you clearly don't get Fe users if you think that. Fe users usually just attack the action in terms of whether it was good or evil according to social norms and _how you appear_. We don't show our hurt. It makes us _appear_ like whiny victims.
> 
> Fe manipulates mainly by attacking appearances and actions, Fi manipulates by attacking the person's inner morality and sensitivity.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that Fi users don't manipulate; I disagree that they use Fi to do it. I think they use Te to do it. manipulation implies deceit and putting up appearances, this is the realm of Te, Fe and to an extent Se and Ne


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I don't disagree that Fi users don't manipulate; I disagree that they use Fi to do it. I think they use Te to do it. manipulation implies deceit and putting up appearances, this is the realm of Te, Fe and to an extent Se and Ne


Manipulation does not imply deceit. Someone putting their own feelings at the forefront of every situation, and basically becoming an emotional vampire is also a form of manipulation.

Merriam-Webster's definition of manipulate:
to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

You don't necessarily have to put on a false front to do that.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Manipulation can be good or bad depending on how it's wielded.

Fe manipulation: I will yell and scream at you to make you do what I want. Or I will be extremely charismatic and sway your opinion.

Fi manipulation: I will use your strengths and weaknesses for some kind of benefit. Either to myself, others or for your own good.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

MisterNi said:


> Manipulation can be good or bad depending on how it's wielded.
> 
> Fe manipulation: I will yell and scream at you to make you do what I want. Or I will be extremely charismatic and sway your opinion.
> 
> Fi manipulation: I will use your strengths and weaknesses for some kind of benefit. Either to myself, others or for your own good.


Those just correlate to being an asshole. I don't think they specifically relate to Fi or Fe.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Torai said:


> Those just correlate to being an asshole. I don't think they specifically relate to Fi or Fe.


Hahaha no disagreement here. 

I was referring specifically to how Fi and Fe manipulation manifests itself. But yes, manipulation is assholish behavior, especially when there's a more direct approach.


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## doucette (Oct 23, 2011)

How interesting. I can totally agree. I notice myself there, and also others. Blaiming by Fi is awful.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> I disagree that they use Fi to do it. I think they use Te to do it. manipulation implies deceit and putting up appearances, this is the realm of Te


No, this would be originating from Fi motivations. Fi would be controlling the actions of Te. Te is merely a logic function, so it would find the most logical ways to carry out manipulation from Fi to get the desired outcome.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Torai said:


> No, you clearly don't get Fe users if you think that. Fe users usually just attack the action in terms of whether it was good or evil according to social norms and _how you appear_. We don't show our hurt. It makes us _appear_ like whiny victims.
> 
> Fe manipulates mainly by attacking appearances and actions, Fi manipulates by attacking the person's inner morality and sensitivity.
> 
> ...


Thank you, @Torai! This makes complete sense to me. My manipulative and abusive ex who was an INFP was like how you describe Fi. He called me manipulative for crying because of things he'd done to me, but I don't think that really counts as me being manipulative. I think the way in which I am most manipulative is scolding people for their actions (I am an INFJ and use Fe) because of how I think their behavior affects people in general or how it would be wrong if everyone did what they did. Hopefully that makes sense... I'm not usually a manipulative person at all and lack some cognitive empathy (understanding what people think), but of course I can be manipulative at times, even if I'm not always aware of it.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

unico said:


> Thank you, Torai! This makes complete sense to me. My manipulative and abusive ex who was an INFP was like how you describe Fi. He called me manipulative for crying because of things he'd done to me, but I don't think that really counts as me being manipulative.


This doesn't really specify Fi or Fe to me. Fe's are more likely to be invalidating, in my opinion, by accusing the other of being selfish with their emotions. But there are Fi's who do the whole invalidation thing, too, in terms of a more... "How dare you invalidate my own feelings by expressing yours!" kind of way. Mainly, due to the fact that identity is an important thing to Fi users, and an attack on it is treason. It only becomes a problem when an Fi takes _absolutely everything_ as an attack on their identity.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Torai said:


> This doesn't really specify Fi or Fe to me. Fe's are more likely to be invalidating, in my opinion, by accusing the other of being selfish with their emotions. But there are Fi's who do the whole invalidation thing, too, in terms of a more... "How dare you invalidate my own feelings by expressing yours!" kind of way.


Thanks! I think I see what you mean I never really claim people invalidated my feelings, but my INFP ex did tend to focus on that more...


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

unico said:


> Thanks! I think I see what you mean I never really claim people invalidated my feelings, but my INFP ex did tend to focus on that more...


INFJ's really just don't do that. You can get an INFJ to argue against you when you attack their morality... But it's generally expressed through Fe. "This is what I do for society! This shows everyone that I'm a good person!".

INFJ's are also touchy when you attack their ability to empathize. Because generally, they try to switch their perspective to understand you. They actually look at your way of thinking and try to understand as best they can, what would make you comfortable and the cause and effect scenario of their actions in terms of morality.

But to attack an INFJ's intrinsic moral compass... I personally have none. All of my morals are from deriving and logically sifting through other's moral perspectives.

Actually, let me revise that. An INFJ can complain that you are invalidating their feelings, but it's generally based on the other person's actions and not their internal emotional response to them. A "you're doing things that emotional abusers do" sort of thing.


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## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

I find Fe manipulation to be more nuanced than that though....it's more like the Fe user can penetrate through your emotional wall and see directly what you're feeling inside and based on this "knowledge" says the exact perfect words to emotionally "convince" you to do the Fe user's bidding that is also congruent to how you feel inside...they can also say the exact perfect words to change these internal feelings the way they want it to and trigger a specific emotional response such that you will then do the Fe user's bidding...

Which is why I see Fe as this ultimate manipulation device.......It's just so magical....

I'm immune to it tho lol....thx to MBTI I can detect Fe users from 20 meters away and react accordingly to any manipulation attempt.....


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Dark Romantic said:


> Interesting. For the record, as an Fe user, I can tell you that there have been many, many, many times where I've done the "trust me, this is for your own good" routine to get someone to go along with something, and while I've also played the victim in the past, doing so always leaves a somewhat bad taste in my mouth. I don't like to pretend to be a victim (unless it's absolutely necessary); if I want something, I'd rather get it with my pride intact.


There's always the "But everyone else is doing it" Fe-style of manipulating people as well. Don't forget about that.


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

childofprodigy said:


> I find Fe manipulation to be more nuanced than that though....it's more like the Fe user can penetrate through your emotional wall and see directly what you're feeling inside and based on this "knowledge" says the exact perfect words to emotionally "convince" you to do the Fe user's bidding that is also congruent to how you feel inside...they can also say the exact perfect words to change these internal feelings the way they want it to and trigger a specific emotional response such that you will then do the Fe user's bidding...
> 
> Which is why I see Fe as this ultimate manipulation device.......It's just so magical....
> 
> I'm immune to it tho lol....thx to MBTI I can detect Fe users from 20 meters away and react accordingly to any manipulation attempt.....


I'm trying to use overly simplistic and immature versions in order to understand basic roots. What you're describing is a more advanced form of manipulation using a combination of Fe, Ti, and possibly a little bit of Ni. 

I've had to learn to understand my own feelings, and use them as sort of an indicator of manipulation, because I was a victim of manipulative behavior and I wanted to deny it for so long. Let me say, Fi/Te manipulation is just as scary.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

The Great One said:


> There's always the "But everyone else is doing it" Fe-style of manipulating people as well. Don't forget about that.


It worked for both Jim Jones and Charles Manson.


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## 200600910 (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks Torai for the great thread.

Do you think that Fe can make crueler, more spiteful, reproaches than Fi? Do you think that Fe-users are more prone to nitpicking and nagging than Fi?

I have that theory, but I don't know if has anything to do with Fe/Fi.


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