# NFs in romantic relationships with SJs?



## NaughyChimp

Are any of you NFs dating/ in a relationship/ married to a XSXJ? Or were? How did you navigate what I find to be that HUGE divide (especially the N vs S thing)? 

I know plenty of these relationships must exist and many are no doubt happy, healthy and extremely fulfilling. I'd love to read about how you master the N/S communication differences as well as all the other potential mine-fields I see in NF/SJ couplings. (I'd be delighted & curious to hear from SJs who are with NFs, too.)


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## shasha001

I dated an istj it was horrible his Te clashes with my Fe(infj ): he would be too blunt with me he is not emotional at all and I am very sensitive. He would call me goofy, a weirdo etc..that S/N difference really made it difficult. My quirky ways annoyed him ): good luck hope you find an SJ and have better luck than I did


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## Celtic Dreams

I was married to an ESFJ for over ten years. We got along really well when talking about our goals and planning everyday stuff we had to get done. Also we seemed to share a very similar viewpoint on what constituted common sense, and right and wrong. After that, it was bad. The worst problem we had was deciding what to do with money once the obvious priorities were taken care of. Also, he would suddenly get bored with one of his hobbies or pets and want to get rid of it and all it's paraphernalia, and spend a lot more money getting a new one. This lack of commitment and throwing money around drove me nuts. Also, if he decided something I liked was unimportant or "dumb" he would stomp all over it and nitpick me to death over it. And he is an attention hog and can't take no for an answer. Example: him.. taste this spaghetti sauce. Me.. I can't right now I just brushed my teeth and I'm leaving. Him... come on, taste it, it's the best I ever made. Just do it...(this was his favorite phrase). 

He is a great guy in some ways, never disloyal, and still considers my kids his step-kids and does what he can for them years after we broke up. He loves holidays, and always tries to get us back together as a family for them (my bf just LOVES this ) But I can't live with him. He's just too different inside the old noggin.


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## NaughyChimp

shasha001 said:


> hope you find an SJ and have better luck than I did


 Ha, thanks, but I actually just ended a relationship with an ISTJ. I think he was an unhealthy version, though. 

I think ISTJs sound like they could be lovely to date but this one was just SO FLIPPING NEGATIVE. Off the top of my head, I can tell you 50 things he disliked about me: I'm untidy; I snore; I don't clip the 2 inches of grass in my garden between my fence and the sidewalk; I only use the turn indicator in my car about 98% of the time when I change lanes; I let my cat into the bedroom at night; I refuse to get rid of my perfectly good Queen sized bed to replace it with a King, etc. And I can only think of 2 positive things he ever said about me. 1. When he met me, I seemed "normal. 2. I am an honest person. 

I'm just curious about other NFs' experiences with SJs since it feels as though SO much of the world is SJ.


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## GoodOldDreamer

My dad (ESTJ) and mom (INFP) were married for 21 years before they (finally!) divorced. The way they managed to deal with each other most of that time was through alcohol. So... yeah. I have my doubts on the ability for an SJ and NF to get along in a healthy romantic relationship. Admittedly, my doubts are biased, but it just seems like it'd be extremely difficult to get that kind of thing to work. The only way I can fathom that my parents married in the first place was due to local traditions and expectations.


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## Splintered in Her Head

I have been married to an ISTJ for a long time. We have had our troubles!!! And up until we took the personality tests about a year ago, I really could have left him many many times. What the test FINALLY told us is yes, we are different in ways, and neither is right or wrong, it is just who we are. Now when an issue arises, I usually will say, there's my 'duty fulfiller' ISTJ and instead of a fight, we actually get over it pretty quick realizing our differences showing. I realize he is SO logical and in the 'here and now' and I am all about the unseen possibilities. He is about getting it done the proper way no matter what, and I am all about keeping harmony, no matter what. That's what gets us into trouble. Now I will say we run a business together very well, no arguements there. I think that is our matching I and J working together. We'll never be a huge business because he can only see the here and now and his duty fulfilling sense kicks in when trying to make it just right for each and every customer (we have over 2,000). He has trouble delegating, wanting to control things so we are going to go only so far. But it has been a nice living, sent the first one off to college this past August with little debt on our part. So it's not so bad that we won't grow any bigger and I can live with it. 
Things I love about my ISTJ hub: first and formost his honesty. Most honest person I've ever met even if it is brutal honesty at times. He has a strong conviction to providing for his family before his pleasures (fishing, boating) are done. He helps most every little old lady he comes accross in some way or another. They just love him! He loves to be a homebody with me, and loves plants (as I do), He cooks (really well) every weekend. 
Things that bother me: Not very emotional. Not a cuddler. Angers quickly (not violently, just loud!). Likes salt water and fishing (I am a mountains and forest and hiking kind of girl) and we usually do his kind of vacation. Always thinks he is right. 

I will say that I think we would have been doomed if we didn't discover our MB personalities. So glad we did, I would have hated to throw 20 years away...


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## moonlight_echo

I have an 'interest' who I suspect is an ISTJ. I'm a little worried to be honest, because my best relationships have always been with NFs, and it's hard to imagine being in a relationship with an SJ. But, I can't help that something is drawing me to one. We don't have the type of deep conversation that I thirst for, but we do talk about honest things- our problems, hopes and dreams for life, etc. I'm not sure it will work out, but I'm at least staying open to the idea.


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## BroNerd

Disclaimer: This is not entirely in terms of romantic relationships but I still think this is relevant.

My experience has been that the more intelligent the SJ, the better the relationship
There's one who I'm really good friends with right now who is very smart.
It's hard to explain. 
She's definitely not a philosophical type and prefers talking/thinking about the concrete over the abstract but she's more than capable of understanding abstract things. It is interesting to see my Ni and her Si come into conflict (playful of course) on a lot of things, 

On the other hand, I don't get along with dim-witted (or intellectually uncurious) iNtuitives. 

For me- intelligence and integrity are much more important than what the person's personality type is.


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## barbalootSuits

moonlight_echo said:


> I have an 'interest' who I suspect is an ISTJ. I'm a little worried to be honest, because my best relationships have always been with NFs, and it's hard to imagine being in a relationship with an SJ. But, I can't help that something is drawing me to one. We don't have the type of deep conversation that I thirst for, but we do talk about honest things- our problems, hopes and dreams for life, etc. I'm not sure it will work out, but I'm at least staying open to the idea.


If anything, do it for the experience. I've had an on and off relationship with an ESFJ for the past eight months and I'll say that it has been the best relationship yet...not out of many, but still . It helped me reach way past my own personality and actually connect when I didn't think it was possible. There was a lot of caring and love even though we didn't think the same way. Two thumbs up, even though it failed xD


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## viva

If this ever happened to me I would probably implode.

They make great friends, but I could nevar evar date one. We'd be too out of sync. Too many dissimilarities.


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## Tamweh

I posted this on another thread, but here it is again:



> My grandmother is an INFP and my grandfather an ISTJ. They've been happily married for over 50 years now. There's no doubt there has been some trouble in the marriage (my grandmother became depressed for an extensive period of time) but I think it has worked out. They are both very happy with each other and very comfortable.
> 
> Furthermore, one of my closest friends is an ISTJ, though I couldn't see us getting into a relationship any time soon. She's a wonderful person though, and once you are able to get a peek into their souls and hearts, you will find it a wonderful place of rich if hidden beauty. Just make sure that you're ready to get into a relationship with somebody who's a workaholic and might not appreciate your constant forays in "la-la-land" or into any retardidly philosophical topics (I once had a long discussion with my grandfather on what the nature of a tree was. Within five minuets it had become an argument about weather our discussion was useful or not.)
> 
> They do tend to be rather clear and straightforward about their thoughts/feelings though. If you have offended an ISTJ, they will tell you quite quickly based off of my experience, which I actually view as a positive trait as it keeps things clear.
> 
> I guess this is all to say that from my own observations, an ISTJ/INFP relationship can work and can work very well, whether as a romantic relationship or simply as a friendship. I know I didn't get into any cognitive functions, but I do hope that you still found this post fruitful.


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## Splintered in Her Head

> my grandmother became depressed for an extensive period of time


As did I. I felt like I could never do anything right. I can so understand this. 



> Just make sure that you're ready to get into a relationship with somebody who's a workaholic and might not appreciate your constant forays in "la-la-land" or into any retardidly philosophical topics (I once had a long discussion with my grandfather on what the nature of a tree was. Within five minuets it had become an argument about weather our discussion was useful or not.)


Oh, boy does that sound like my husband and me. At least now he realizes that la-la-land is where I need to be to be truly happy. And he accepts it. And yes, don't try to get into deep philosophical conversation, I lose my DH in 3.5 seconds and he's looking at me like I am an alien. I do have plenty of people around me that will get into those type of conversations, so it's all good. 



> once you are able to get a peek into their souls and hearts, you will find it a wonderful place of rich if hidden beauty.


Yes, I agree with you. You get to experience their world and understand how and why they think/act the way they do. And it is a beautiful thing!



> They do tend to be rather clear and straightforward about their thoughts/feelings though. If you have offended an ISTJ, they will tell you quite quickly based off of my experience, which I actually view as a positive trait as it keeps things clear.


Straightfoward is an understatement. But now that I understand that he is not some pit viper ready to strike at any second and just shoots off like an SJ naturally does, I can handle it. It's good to walk in their shoes and experience life like they do. I am just so happy to be an INFJ because I could not be that serious and 'uptight' (IMO) all the time. But he is a GOOD man, and I am blessed to have him as my husband.


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## Tamweh

I should also clarify that my grandmothers depression was not only because of differing personality traits. She was German born and bred and when she moved to America with my grandfather she become homesick. She had no friends in California except for her husband and he was away at college for the majority of the time. Loneliness/homesickness was a main factor in her depression, though I'm sure she had difficulty coping with my Opa when they first moved in together.


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## BroNerd

An interesting idea.. the XNFJs may have more successful relationships with SJs than the XNFPs.
The XNFJs can relate to the SJs desire for order and organization better and are often more traditional than the XNFPs.


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## NaughyChimp

Yeah, maybe the xNFJs will do better with SJs than xNFPs. And maybe an xSFJ would do better than an xSTJ because the F could help "soften" some of the SJ toughness that often seems to upset NFs.

But I'm surprised by how negative most of the responses are here. I would think that a healthy NF and a healthy SJ would make an incredibly strong and effective team: accepting and celebrating each other's differences while providing strengths that the partner is missing. Maybe that's just in theory, though. It seems like reality is a different story.


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## fairytales

> Just make sure that you're ready to get into a relationship with somebody who's a workaholic and might not appreciate your constant forays in "la-la-land" or into any retardidly philosophical topics (I once had a long discussion with my grandfather on what the nature of a tree was. Within five minuets it had become an argument about weather our discussion was useful or not.)


Ahahaha this rings so true!


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## NaughyChimp

Are all SJs workaholics?


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## Splintered in Her Head

Mine DH is for sure. He feels guilty any time he takes time off and he owns his own business! If a customer calls our private residence on a Sunday night he'll take the call and make appointments. Ten o'clock at night when I'm just wanting to veg he wants to talk business. It's 24/7/365 with him. I've gotten used to it, but yes, SJ's seem to be workaholics.


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## locofoco

Yeah, I definitely agree about SJs tending to be workaholics. One time I asked my friends if they could take the test, just for curiosity's sake, and the two people who absolutely love talking about their jobs and can't go a day without thinking about their jobs are the only SJs in the group. But it's weird because the friends that took that test that I'm trying to distance myself from are all Ss (like, they're _all_ Ss) and for many of reasons why N and S clash. haha


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## Aurum

I know 2 confirmed SJ's (ESFJ & ISTJ) and both are EXTREME workaholics. I couldn't imagine being in a romantic relationship with either of them (assuming they were viable candidates).


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## NaughyChimp

What is it about the SJ combo that makes them workoholics?


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## Aurum

The Guardians (ISTJ, ISFJ, ESFJ, ESTJ) on Wikipedia



> ...share certain core values, among them the belief in a strong work ethic...


Doesn't explain the why, but it supports the idea that SJ's may be more prone to be workaholics than other temperaments.


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## locofoco

Hmm, well I know with my two SJs friends, they both wouldn't really know what to do with themselves without a job. 

My xSFJ friend feels like she's not accomplishing anything unless she is working. And she's always badgering me to get a job. Not so I can have money saved up or anything, but I think because since she feels that sense of accomplishment, she can't fathom how others cannot need that like she does. It's like she feels useless unless she's working. She even volunteers for fairs and stuff in December so she has more to do.

My other friend is an ESxJ. We've never actually sat down and talked about the reasons why she likes working so much, but I have noticed that for her, it's no so much accomplishment (even though that seems to be something she shares too and values), but because she's constantly thinking about money. She does enjoy working and has been the favorite employee for all bosses she's had since she's so dedicated, but I've noticed that her priority is with money. How much she's making, how many hours she'll need to work. And while she is also paying for her education, so that's taken into account, but I have a hunch even if she didn't have to worry about education, she'd still be focusing on money. But she also enjoys covering people's shifts and enjoys talking about what happens at work. 

If only some SJs come and give us their opinion. LOL


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## gaudy316

INFP here dating an ESFJ. Well, dating and somewhat planning to marry. She is very mentally healthy except for the fact that she can cry and turn into a faucet faster than you can blink. This is the only thing that bothers me in our wonderful relationship - her fragility. Nonetheless, she handles her PMS/periods adequately. 

I find that there is a great difference between an ESFJ and the rest of the SJs. Unlike other SJs, this ESFJ just gets me. She understands me, embraces my social dysfunctions, is full of youth, is intelligent, and has great traditional values - cooks, does laundry, and will save her virginity for marriage. Seriously, what NF does not want that? The vibe I get with ESTJs, ISTJs, and ISFJs is that they think I'm very awkward and I have a lot to improve in social skills, maturity, dress code, etc. There are plenty of SJs in my life and in this world. Honestly, I thought my girlfriend was INFJ at the beginning, but she took the test for me. Knowing her true personality has no effect on how I view our relationship, except I trust her loyalty. 

After 4 months of being together, I found that we have a lot in common. Eating at Yelp-recommended restaurants, cooking together, acting and talking like immature adults at each other (which I found out that's how I flirt...), travelling together, etc. All I wanted from a romantic partner was understanding. She gives me understanding, acceptance, affection, and lots of hugs & kisses. Personality Pages says that the INFP/ESFJ partner works out very well (silver medal to the ENFJ). I agree that a healthy INFP/healthy ESFJ has lots of great potential, but you can say that about anybody with a healthy mind - which I define as positive, energetic, and knows what he/she wants in life. 

One more setback is that she calls me everyday and we have to talk to each other. I guess it's an extroverted thing. I happily pick up the phone. I do remember that all those times that I was lonely (perhaps 90-99% of the first 26 years of my life), I would have been ecstatic for these kinds of opportunities  Best of all, she tells me she's very happy to be with me too. 

Check out the thread below and post #15 (my attitude toward SJs in February):

http://personalitycafe.com/myers-br...ation-between-type-divorce-2.html#post1024198

I didn't have this kind of feeling at the very beginning. Once I did find out about her character, I had some kind of longing for either an introvert or another NF. As I dated her more and more, she grew on me. I feel as though she's the catch I was searching for my whole life. 

Honesty. Loyalty. Positive. Energetic (a little too energetic sometimes). Social. Organized. Traditional. Wants to have many children. VERY good relationship with her parents (who also seem to be a very good couple) and relatives. Intelligent (her N/S is quite balanced). Youthful. Understanding. Punctual. Compassionate. ... 

Found her on an online dating site by the way. If you're single and don't want to be, wouldn't you invest less than $100 for a chance to hit the high-percentage jackpot?


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## Memphisto

Don't know if my $.02 is helpful at all...but I have a decent amount of experience with SJ's. In regards to being workaholics - I've only found that to be true in some cases.

My mom is an ISFJ and she is most definitely a workaholic...she never stops. If she finally stops to watch TV for a little while in the evening she's up at every commercial wiping down the kitchen counter, throwing in a load of laundry, etc. Learning about MBTI has made a huge difference in our relationship. We had a long talk one evening about our personalities and have both tried to understand each other better. We have a really great relationship now. Before that I always felt like she didn't get me at all and was always trying to push her beliefs and values on me. She's mellowed out with her opinion giving and I've become less sensitive when she voices her opinions. It's taken work on both sides but my mom is amazing, I love her so much and admire much about her.

One of my closest friends is an ESFJ. She's definitely not a workaholic...she's actually quite lazy. She's a really great worker on the job (we've worked together before) but her house is a mess....she's not big on chores. We get along really well. Sometimes I find conversation with her boring and not very stimulating...and she thinks I'm a little spacey and out there. But we're both very compassionate and giving people so we really connect on that level. She's a loyal friend and someone I really love.

I have a weird relationship with a male ISTJ... At first he was very private and rarely revealed anything personal about himself...really hard to get to know. Something about him kept me drawn to him though...so I decided to be patient and never pushed him to open up to me. After 9 months or so of friendship that all started to change and he's become one of my closest friends. He's allowed me into his world and what a beautiful person I've found...so worth the wait. He's a great, loyal, honest, steady friend. Brutally direct and honest at times but it comes from a good place. He definitely always thinks he's right. However when he asks for my opinion or advice on something that he struggles with (like relationships and feelings) he always listens and acknowledges what I have to say. He's a hard worker but I wouldn't call him a workaholic. He's big on his leisure time. Although when he gets involved in a project he'll hardly come up for air until it's completed. He's very cuddly and warm with me. We've discussed taking it beyond friends...we have a very intimate relationship already minus the sex... so that possibility is still floating around out there for various reasons. The personality differences are something I think about... But so far we've been a great team, we've both learned so much from each other and agree that we've grown as people from knowing each other.


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## Splintered in Her Head

> He's very cuddly and warm with me.


Take it from someone who knows. Make SURE he understands how important this is to you. To make a long story short, I fell in love with and married an ISTJ and because of a not so great childhood, I had become an ESTJ as a survival mode personality. Nothing wrong with ESTJ, but not who I truly was. Once I met this ISTJ we took the MBTI and our priest couldn't believe how close we were. Years later when I realized it was I was in a shell and it was safe to come out of my shell, the real INFJ awoke, and things started to change. I needed emotion. My poor ISTJ who is so much the wonderful man you explain above but not emotional was now having to deal with me who needed emotion. It was rough on the rocks for awhile till we retested and found out about our differences. It's better now because we understand each other, but I can not force him to be something he is not. So although I get all the wonderful aspects of the ISTJ, I do not get the emotional needs so important to this INFJ. So let your ISTJ know that emotional connection is important to you.


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## NaughyChimp

Splintered in Her Head said:


> So although I get all the wonderful aspects of the ISTJ, I do not get the emotional needs so important to this INFJ. So let your ISTJ know that emotional connection is important to you.


 Just curious - what kind of emotional needs are you not having met by your ISTJ, pls? Thx.


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## NaughyChimp

"_Idealist-Traditionalist_
With Traditionalist mates Idealists find a comfortable, reassuring stability and dependability in the home, traits which give the somewhat scattered NFs a feeling of solid earth beneath their feet. SJs also have a firmly fixed moral center-a sure sense of Right and Wrong-that Idealists, so often of two minds about moral issues, deeply respect. And Idealists and Traditionalists are both social cooperators, which defuses alot of conflict over following, or at least respecting, the rules and laws that govern everyday life. Yet here again Traditionalists have trouble sharing the rich inner lives of Idealists, and can disappoint their NF mates' deep longing for soulful bonding and romantic sexuality. The Traditionalist might listen dutifully to the Idealists flights of imagination, and might try to be more fanciful and passionate in order to please the NF, but sooner or later the SJ feels unappreciated and begin to resist the force of the NFs Pygmalion Project-and the result can be head-on battles." taken from Idealists - Myer Brigg's Personality Types


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## Splintered in Her Head

NaughyChimp said:


> Just curious - what kind of emotional needs are you not having met by your ISTJ, pls? Thx.


An example would be when I got pregnant. I was so excited that when he called me from work to tell me about a job change, I also told him I was pregnant (with our second child) His response: "That's not what I wanted to hear". I wanted the excitement an hugs that usually come with this kind of news. He stressed about having another kid instead of just for the moment being happy. He loves his daughter, don't get me wrong, but does not know how to be emotional. He was emotionally distant for some time after that news. 
Another time is when I was sick. I had some serious neurological issues that were difficult to diagnose. Some Drs thought MS, or Lou Gherig's disease, and till this day, I have undiagnosed neuropathies on both sides of my body. (The doctor said up to 35% of neuropathies are undiagnosed) Instead of trying to comfort me through these illnesses, he turns cold and basically tells me to get over it. He does not know how to be emotional. And forget cuddling!! I get a hug IF he thinks I need it. And it's forced. It is kind of sad at times, but I deal with it. 

But, like I said before if I make a list of the good in him vs. the list of the bad, the good list is much longer. Nothing in this world is going to be perfect. I just have to deal with it.


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## NaughyChimp

Wow, thanks for those examples; they really gave me a picture of what you meant. I hope that some ISTJs read this thread - not because they need to change who they are essentially but just so that they can understand the kinds of needs that some other Types might want from them that- surely! - wouldn't be too hard to provide. I can comprehend how it might be very difficult for an ISTJ to be excited about a pregnancy if he feels like he's not a "good enough" provider, but I cannot imagine that ANYONE couldn't find it in him/herself to give out a few more unsolicited hugs once in a while.


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## Emmsmms

I could never really see myself in a relationship with an SJ. I'm with an INFP right now and it's absolutely wonderful--we understand each other and are on the same page. He's as off in la-la land as I am, is such a sweetheart, and best of all, is passionate and romantic and loves to cuddle with me. I've found that all that is so important to me--the genuine kindness of his soul, the physical affection--that I can't really ever seeing myself being with someone who can't offer me those things. And our only letter difference--the E and the I--just makes it all the better. He thinks I'm goofy and quirky and really enjoys that about me. It's great.


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## NaughyChimp

I've had amazing connections with my 3 most serious boyfriends: ENTP, INFP and ENTP. The N and P really means we "get" each other and yes, we were cuddly and affectionate and always off in la-la land together. But I found that the day-to-day living with all of these 3 could be difficult in that none of us is especially practical or good with money or suited to hard-core real world stuff and as slight as these things might sound when you're young and madly in love, they really do wear on a couple as the years go by. 

I dated an ISTJ for a while and communication was very difficult but gosh, I could see how bills would get paid, there'd never be an issue with debt, the tax forms would be completed correctly and the roof would never leak and there was something extremely appealing about that after decades of loving fellow NPs but always feeling slightly unsafe and uneasy when it came to all practical matters. 

I wonder if older NFs (for whom bills, house repairs and kids' college education funds are more of a reality) feel differently about romantic relationships with SJs than do younger NFs...


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## iinnffpp

i think an SJ and NP can get along as long as each person is not too strong in each function. for example, an SJ who is 60% S, 40% N, and so forth. my best friend is EXTX, so her N/S and J/P functions are about split evenly. i've never been able to find anyone else with whom i bonded so well. we always joke that if i or she were a heterosexual guy, then we'd make the best couple in the world.


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## NaughyChimp

I find that Types who suit me as friends are not always/ usually Types who suit me as romantic partners, though...


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## pinkrasputin

Oh.. didn't see this thread! Sorry, had to bump.

My last relationship was with an ESFJ. It really crushed me and I had to spend 2 years repairing myself and not dating anyone in order to get over it. It makes me sort of "jumpy" now.

I found the ESFJ incredibly unpredictable. I never saw our break up coming after he acted so certain he wished to be with me and got me to drop my guard. He would compliment and care take quite a bit, but I felt it was in a condescending way. I felt more like a daughter in the relationship. The sexual attraction wasn't powerful because of this dynamic. He was also WAY TOO NEGATIVE for my comfort. And his logic didn't make sense to me. He was very attached to his past and would talk about it in a negative way all the time.

I am currently in a relationship with an ISTJ. It's rocky. But the problems that were there with the ESFJ are not there in my relationship with my ISTJ. My ISTJ is in no way negative, he is not critical, and I don't feel like he is "managing me" or directing me in anyway. I feel like we are equals. But the problem I am having is getting very little feedback and no emotional support. I've been in relationships with other Thinking types: ISTP and INTJ, but the lack of emotional verbal expression is much more so with my ISTJ. It's enough to make me want to bang my head against the wall and pull out my hair often.

For instance, if he knows something traumatic has happened in my family, I won't receive a "How are you doing today?" text about it. He won't "check in". But he is into the physical stuff quite a bit and he certainly cuddles. But I don't exist when we are not together. I don't think he ever looks ahead. Even when he wanted to first date me, I felt he wasn't looking ahead to our noticeable differences. For instance, I could tell if I dated this guy in the future, I would get very little emotional support. But I didn't have the words to explain that to him at the time. I just noticed how random his texting was, how long he would take to get back to me. Also, his first "flirt" was saying how "Hot!" I was, which left me with much to be desired. I corrected him and said, "You mean to tell me how 'intelligent' you find me?" But that just continued our discourse and eventually led to our dating. He also tried to pretend at the time he knew a bit of philosophy.

I do get depressed from his lack of emotional support at times. I know he is different than me, but often I want to curl up in bed and die because of it. I'm trying to understand, but sometimes it really feels like a slap in the face. 

My ISTJ is committed and that's why I like him. He seems to try to understand what I am saying. But his emotions are locked up inside. I have to remind myself over and over not to take it personally and to focus on what he does give to me in my physical presence. And really, in comparison to other men I've dated, my ISTJ is _really a good guy_, he doesn't just act like it or want to believe that about himself, he's too humble. But he really is an honest and good man, hard working with good ethics. Rare to find.


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## NaughyChimp

Oh, PinkR - I am really sorry about these issues with your ISTJ. He sounds like a really fine man: honourable, decent, loyal. But he's not giving you what you need and probably now - before he's heading off to deployment - is a time when he's going to be (understandably) especially UNreceptive to your "training." It seems like ISTJs require a looooong time before they feel truly safe with a partner and before they can even begin to open up. And this looooong time is probably going to be further extended for the 2 of you because of this highly-stressful, extenuating circumstance (=heading off to war). 

You've done a great job in the "Ask an ISTJ relationship question" thread of explaining your predicament and listening to the ISTJs' perspectives. It seems that a lot of the responses revolve around the, "He's never going to change" theme, and explaining that he's into you and this is how he shows it; he's never going to be the most emotionally accessible guy, even at the best of times. I think you should ask some of the same questions on the ENFP board, to see how others of our Type have managed to find happiness with ISTJ partners. That way, you've got both the ISTJ and ENFP perspective/ insight/ ideas.

Honestly, I think you have 2 choices. 

#1 Just accept how he is today as how he will always be. You can tell him once in a while what you need to feel more cherished but remember that ISTJs VERY QUICKLY grow tired of our ENFP desire to improve on relationships; they start hearing it as nagging, dissatisfaction and feedback that they're not doing a good job... all of which make them shut down even more) My late dad was an ISTJ and my mom - while not an ENFP and therefore not requiring the same level of affirming talk as we do - loved him but she got many of her emotional needs for closeness and affection met by her kids and female friends. He might semi-open up every few months or years, but this will be a rare treat and NEVER something you'll get as often as you crave it. Can you learn to be okay with that? Will you truly feel loved as you need to be, accepting the physical affection and stability he shows you and not always wishing he could be more verbal? If not...
#2 Break it off now. The distance and stress when he's deployed will exacerbate the difficulties you're already finding in your communication. If you are hurt and feeling emotionally needy, he will feel as though he's failing you and will shut down even more. He needs to have his head "in the game" in dangerous, stressful circumstances. You deserve to be with someone who can show you love in a way that feels loving to you. It's not fair to either of you to keep this going if you cannot simply accept him as he is, today.


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## Ace Face

SJs? :/ Not typically my cup of tea.


----------



## NaughyChimp

Ace Face said:


> SJs? :/ Not typically my cup of tea.


 Why not? And who is, typically, your cuppa tea?


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## Ace Face

@NaughyChimp

INTPs, ENTPs, and occasionally, mature NFs are typically my preferred/ideal partners. I'm open to all types, but those listed are the ones with whom I've had the most luck


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## NaughyChimp

Ace Face said:


> @NaughyChimp
> 
> INTPs, ENTPs, and occasionally, mature NFs are typically my preferred/ideal partners. I'm open to all types, but those listed are the ones with whom I've had the most luck


 *sigh* ENTPs: my favourite kryptonite!!!


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## tissa

pinkrasputin said:


> Later on, I ended up typing my girlfriends: ENFP, ENFJ, ESFP. The night before, I had called my best ENFP male guy friend for support about my relationship. Yesterday, I talked to another ENFP man about my relationship. And then it hit me: Why am I expecting my guy to be like _any_ of these people who are around me? I do have enough emotional support around me- with all my Feeler friends, I get more than enough compassion and empathy. Why am I barking up the wrong tree?
> 
> 
> I know we are saying that we do accept our SJ's as they really are, but are we really? I am telling you, this was at such an unconscious level for me. There is head knowledge and there is heart knowledge. I had to dig really deep to find that I have this belief that my guy's behavior and who he is, is "wrong". I just want to challenge some of you to ask yourself if you are secretly believing that some of your SJ's behavior is "wrong". Because with that mentality in mind, wouldn't it crush you to know that your ISTJ is thinking that your known weaknesses are "wrong" and sometimes he can't stomach them? Ouch!


No I must say it is not the case in my situation. My partner is not healthy i guess... He wants me to share EVERYTHING with him. And by EVERYTHING i really mean EVERYTHING (even the smallest details) or else if he finds out that there was smth i never mentioned before he freaks out. He freaks out even more if i told something (anything) to someone that i did not tell him. To him it is a huge sign that he can not trust me. One time he even BROKE UP with me coz I did not tell him I was going to therapy but I told his (and mine) friend about it coz his friend i knew was in that same type of therapy. To him it was a huge sign of disrespect (and I had my reasons for not telling him, plus therapy is kind of a very personal thing). 
Bottom line: he wants me to share everything with him, yet he is never supportive when I do and often times is mean or even cruel! And that makes me not want to ever do it again.


----------



## NaughyChimp

He sounds unhealthy and controlling. Are you sure you want to stay in this relationship?


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## pinkrasputin

tissa said:


> Bottom line: he wants me to share everything with him, yet he is never supportive when I do *and often times is mean or even cruel! *And that makes me not want to ever do it again.


 Elaborate on this please. How so?

And I'm very sorry you are going through this.


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## tissa

NaughyChimp said:


> He sounds unhealthy and controlling. Are you sure you want to stay in this relationship?


I am not sure about anything any more. I am sure I love him. I am not sure if we have a future together :'(


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## tissa

pinkrasputin said:


> Elaborate on this please. How so?
> 
> And I'm very sorry you are going through this.


Not talking to me for days, withholding sex or any kind of affection completely, or even do something on purpose that he knows will hurt me to "teach me because I do not understand it any other way", say mean things


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## pinkrasputin

tissa said:


> Not talking to me for days, withholding sex or any kind of affection completely, or even do something on purpose that he knows will hurt me to "teach me because I do not understand it any other way", say mean things


Wow. He actually says, "Teach [you] because" you "do not understand it any other way"? I know I often misinterpret my ISTJ's behavior and with my Ne have a tendency to read negativity with any ambiguity, but I can't relate to this type of comment at all.

This is not ISTJ behavior. This is flat out unhealthy behavior. 

And I still don't understand when you say "say mean things"? I don't know what you are talking about unless you give examples. How old are you two?

And can you tell me the reasons why you love him again? By any chance, is there a huge age difference between you two?


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## Splintered in Her Head

Wow that is sounding way too unhealthy. I've had one major fight with my DH where he called me a 'b', but that was it (and I in return called him a controlling narcissist a-hole, so we both go a good one in). He sulks (cold shoulder) usually and sometimes for days when upset, but that's usually the extent of it. He can yell, and I even pulled up this picture and show him what he looks like when he yells. It's a little older than he is of course, but I put it up on the computer full size, and he gets the message. 
I don't think yours is a healthy ISTJ...maybe giving us some scenerios may help better determine that. I know when yours is acting mean you get physically ill, sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. And that's not healthy if it happens all the time. Maybe the others are right: maybe he isn't for you. You're worth better.


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## tissa

pinkrasputin said:


> And I still don't understand when you say "say mean things"? I don't know what you are talking about unless you give examples. How old are you two?
> 
> And can you tell me the reasons why you love him again? By any chance, is there a huge age difference between you two?


I am 27, he is 31. 
Mean things...twice he called me "stupid". He apologized. Once or twice he called me a bitch. He calls me a hypocrite a lot. He called me a liar i do not know how many times. He can yell at me too. But on top of it all it is other things when he knows just what to say to make me speechless. I will give you one example. About 6 months ago he broke up with me because he found out (searching my screen names on the internet) taht I had 2 abortions and not just one. I told him about one that happened fairly recently in my life and it also happened in his country (I am not from the USA) and I did not tell him about another one coz first of all i did not want to overwhelm him and did not want him to think that I am some kind of a whore and it happened when i was 19 in my home country. Years before. He found out. He broke up with me, called me a horrible person (not for having 2 abortions but for not telling me), yelled at me...then in one of the conversations he says he would forgive me if he could go to my parents and tell them about my abortions (my parents do not know and my dad had 2 heart attacks), he said "I will forgive you if you will agree that I will go and tell your parents". I was shocked. All I said to him then was "Go tell them. If because of that my dad has another heart attack and dies what will you do then?" He never told them of course, not just because of my comment, I do not think he intended to, but he just wanted to be mean to me. 

And in may situations he finds something like that to say that really hurts me at the moment and he knows that. 

Why I love him? He is a great guy. He is funny, he is loving (i guess i should add "in his own way") I think he loves me too even in all of his unhealthy ways, he and I have been through a lot and still together, he makes me smile, he has a big heart. 
And yes I know he is unhealthy...and lately I have been thinking a lot about our future and if it is even possible. It breaks my heart


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## Splintered in Her Head

tissa said:


> I am 27, he is 31.
> Mean things...twice he called me "stupid". He apologized. Once or twice he called me a bitch. He calls me a hypocrite a lot. He called me a liar i do not know how many times. He can yell at me too. But on top of it all it is other things when he knows just what to say to make me speechless. I will give you one example. About 6 months ago he broke up with me because he found out (searching my screen names on the internet) taht I had 2 abortions and not just one. I told him about one that happened fairly recently in my life and it also happened in his country (I am not from the USA) and I did not tell him about another one coz first of all i did not want to overwhelm him and did not want him to think that I am some kind of a whore and it happened when i was 19 in my home country. Years before. He found out. He broke up with me, called me a horrible person (not for having 2 abortions but for not telling me), yelled at me...then in one of the conversations he says he would forgive me if he could go to my parents and tell them about my abortions (my parents do not know and my dad had 2 heart attacks), he said "I will forgive you if you will agree that I will go and tell your parents". I was shocked. All I said to him then was "Go tell them. If because of that my dad has another heart attack and dies what will you do then?" He never told them of course, not just because of my comment, I do not think he intended to, but he just wanted to be mean to me.
> 
> And in may situations he finds something like that to say that really hurts me at the moment and he knows that.
> 
> Why I love him? He is a great guy. He is funny, he is loving (i guess i should add "in his own way") I think he loves me too even in all of his unhealthy ways, he and I have been through a lot and still together, he makes me smile, he has a big heart.
> And yes I know he is unhealthy...and lately I have been thinking a lot about our future and if it is even possible. It breaks my heart


I may be well off course by saying this, but run, don't walk. He sounds very manipulating, and you do not want to be a puppet on his strings. How dare he threaten to tell your ailing dad something that is probably already so painful for you to bare...what a jerk. My sj never in a million years would do anything like this...makes mine seem like a saint. Do you really love him? Can you?? His bad list sounds a lot longer than his good list. Just sayin'.


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## NaughyChimp

I have no doubt that you do love him but I've learned that love is indeed blind; often, those we love do not deserve it. Somewhere "out there" is a man who will respect you; be kind to you; does not threaten to tell your dad about your private life choices. Why not go out and find him, even if it takes you a lifetime to do so, rather than stay one more minute with this controlling, angry boyfriend?! This is not ISTJ behaviour - this is abuser behaviour. Breaking up with a loved one hurts, but staying with someone who undermines you would hurt more in the long run.


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## Memphisto

NaughyChimp said:


> I have no doubt that you do love him but I've learned that love is indeed blind; often, those we love do not deserve it. Somewhere "out there" is a man who will respect you; be kind to you; does not threaten to tell your dad about your private life choices. Why not go out and find him, even if it takes you a lifetime to do so, rather than stay one more minute with this controlling, angry boyfriend?! This is not ISTJ behaviour - this is abuser behaviour. Breaking up with a loved one hurts, but staying with someone who undermines you would hurt more in the long run.


As someone who recently came out of an emotionally abusive relationship...I second this. It's very difficult to leave a bad situation, especially when you love the person. It hurts, it's scary, and it's painful. But a year and a half later...I'm in such a better place and it's been worth all of the $%*^ I've had to go through. The behavior you've described is abusive and you do not deserve that kind of treatment. When you're in the situation It's hard to see it... I had no idea I was in an abusive situation until a friend (ISTJ) very directly called it to my attention and encouraged me to seek help. Almost a year in therapy...and I can finally look back and see it for what it was. Of course only you know your relationship and how you feel...but what you've described sounds so unhealthy and as someone who's been there, I can tell you that leaving is so worth it in the end.


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## pinkrasputin

tissa said:


> Not talking to me for days, withholding sex or any kind of affection completely, or even do something on purpose that he knows will hurt me to "teach me because I do not understand it any other way", say mean things


@tissa, please take some time to read over this OP: http://personalitycafe.com/sex-relationships/22048-abuse-warning-signs-types.html#post439907

I once left an abusive marriage with $7 to my name, the shirt on my back, and my daughter in tow. We stayed at a woman's shelter until I could get on my feet. I ended up finishing my college degree a year later. _It can be done._ Mental abuse is the worse. It's the hardest to get over because it's the hardest to recognize. Physical violence is easy to recognize as abuse, and those wounds often heal. Mental abuse leaves it's wounds and scars for many, many years and you can also start taking on some of your abuser's ways. Get out now so you can detox. There are places to help you do this, all over. Give them a call. You need to be empowered to leave and get some support for your choices.

I've given you some tools and advice, it's up to you to take them though.

Abuse is about _power and control_. It's not love.


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## pinkrasputin

Out of curiosity, did any of you see the latest episode of "Modern Family" [video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/303099/modern-family-punkin-chunkin"[/video]? I was wondering what those of you who saw it thought? The last couple of minutes of the show makes me cry (see my current quote in my signature). It reminded me of this thread. But it gave me an appreciation for each other.


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## PeaceOfMind

Thanks, @pinkrasputin for directing me here. 



tissa said:


> I am 27, he is 31.
> Mean things...twice he called me "stupid". He apologized. Once or twice he called me a bitch. He calls me a hypocrite a lot. He called me a liar i do not know how many times. He can yell at me too. But on top of it all it is other things when he knows just what to say to make me speechless. I will give you one example. About 6 months ago he broke up with me because he found out (searching my screen names on the internet) taht I had 2 abortions and not just one. I told him about one that happened fairly recently in my life and it also happened in his country (I am not from the USA) and I did not tell him about another one coz first of all i did not want to overwhelm him and did not want him to think that I am some kind of a whore and it happened when i was 19 in my home country. Years before. He found out. He broke up with me, called me a horrible person (not for having 2 abortions but for not telling me), yelled at me...then in one of the conversations he says he would forgive me if he could go to my parents and tell them about my abortions (my parents do not know and my dad had 2 heart attacks), he said "I will forgive you if you will agree that I will go and tell your parents". I was shocked. All I said to him then was "Go tell them. If because of that my dad has another heart attack and dies what will you do then?" He never told them of course, not just because of my comment, I do not think he intended to, but he just wanted to be mean to me.
> 
> And in may situations he finds something like that to say that really hurts me at the moment and he knows that.
> 
> Why I love him? He is a great guy. He is funny, he is loving (i guess i should add "in his own way") I think he loves me too even in all of his unhealthy ways, he and I have been through a lot and still together, he makes me smile, he has a big heart.
> And yes I know he is unhealthy...and lately I have been thinking a lot about our future and if it is even possible. It breaks my heart


@tissa, I understand that you love him, and he does seem to have some good qualities of his own. But he doesn't treat you the way you deserve to be treated. He calls you names, he requires you to tell him everything, he blackmails you into telling your parents about something that you are not yet ready to tell them. You have a right to say what you want to say to him, you are separate from him. Love does not mean you have to be meshed into one person, both of you have different personalities and both of you are individuals with choices. Think of the time when you were single; you are free to say what you want to say or do what you want to do. You are complete without him, and he is complete without you and both of you happened to make a choice to be together. You also have a choice if you want to break up with him.

I also believe that love helping each other grow as persons. So ask yourself, is he helping you grow as a person?

It seems to me that you already know the answer to this. Have faith that everything will turn out right in the end and you will find someone who will support you and bring out the best in you.


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## PeaceOfMind

pinkrasputin said:


> Out of curiosity, did any of you see the latest episode of "Modern Family" [video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/303099/modern-family-punkin-chunkin"[/video]? I was wondering what those of you who saw it thought? The last couple of minutes of the show makes me cry (see my current quote in my signature). It reminded me of this thread. But it gave me an appreciation for each other.


"There are dreamers and there are realists in this world, you think the dreamers would find the dreamers and the realists would find the realists, but more often than not the opposite is true. See the dreamers need the realists to keep the dreamers from soaring too close to the sun. And the realists? Well without the dreamers, they might not ever get off the ground.” <--quoted for truth

I'm in a relationship with an ISTJ and I couldn't be happier.  We balance each other out; when I'm emotional, he's the calm one and the same is true vice versa too. He wants to do the right thing because it's objectively the right thing to do, while I always look at how my actions affect other people, and I don't want to hurt others, which makes me do the right thing. Our motivations for doing things are different, and our conversations don't go in the same direction as my conversations with NTs or NFs (I can't really describe very well what makes it different though), but we are similar in values. I think it all boils down to that. We accept each other and trust each other fully. And I've never had a smoother relationship and I've never felt secure as I do with my ISTJ, really.


----------



## Eliza. Peace to you.

Memphisto said:


> As someone who recently came out of an emotionally abusive relationship...I second this. It's very difficult to leave a bad situation, especially when you love the person. It hurts, it's scary, and it's painful. But a year and a half later... ... I had no idea I was in an abusive situation until a friend (ISTJ) very directly called it to my attention and encouraged me to seek help. Almost a year in therapy...and I can finally look back and see it for what it was. .


 Its a real ordeal you've been through, I know. God blessed you with that ISTJ friend, what a grace. You must be grateful. If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. And you are stronger now. God bless you!


----------



## Eliza. Peace to you.

PeaceOfMind said:


> @_tissa_ .. you are separate from him. Love does not mean you have to be meshed into one person, both of you have different personalities and both of you are individuals with choices. Think of the time when you were single; you are free to say what you want to say or do what you want to do. You are complete without him, and he is complete without you and both of you happened to make a choice to be together...
> 
> I also believe that love helping each other grow as persons. So ask yourself, is he helping you grow as a person?
> .


You gave her good advice! And I agree 100% about helping each other grow as persons. The Catechism of my church (Catholic) teaches that one of the main purposes of marriage is to help each other get to heaven [or, as you put it, grow]. I believe that, and love that, and that is a goal, if God wills I may marry again (for love alone!).


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## Weena

I found out after the wedding that I had married an ISTJ. Well, he leans toward ISFJ which could make a difference . . . really, right on the border. But SJ in any event. I was so in love that I was certain he had to be "almost just like me!" and was horrified when the indicator consistently showed him to be an SJ, even if relatively warm-hearted. He reported having received the identical outcome earlier in life, during grad school or something. So, SJ it is.
Some predictable issues arise but overall we are enormously compatible. His cutting, unkind use of logic has diminished as he has relaxed into the relationship. I am convinced that a good deal of success depends on personality as much as temperament. This guy genuinely cares, and he genuinely appreciates me. 
However, I do suffer from classic NF loneliness, having realized that my deep feelings and my expression of them are simply not within his scope. I seem to perceive (hear, smell, taste, see, touch) ten times more than he ever will and each sensation conjures up multisensory responses within me that emerge as a rush of memory, philosophizing, and dreamy reflection. He is oblivious to all of this. What's there is there, in his view, and hopefully it can have a number put on it. One day, choked up with emotion as I relayed a personal experience to him, I noticed he hadn't responded so I asked him what he was thinking. "Whether the tires should be re-aligned after I change them," he replied. This is typical of our conversations. We are in counseling.
I think that our relationship functions largely because we married late in life--his first, too, and so he is determined to do what it takes. Despite his warnings to me not to expect it, he has definitely changed. He is more tolerant, kinder, less judgmental. Perhaps this is an age-related softening. Or it could be because we simply are so happy together. For one thing, we are both goodhearted, generous, trustworthy people. Much of our difficult side seemed to come from having to recover from past relationships in which trust was an issue. We are both relaxing, I'd say. Oh, and our backgrounds are extremely similar, from childhood through higher education and into politics and hobbies. That helps a lot. 
The MBTI isn't everything, just a helpful way to identify areas of opening or blockage between people, and it's definitely not a death sentence.


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## IndigoAbyss

NaughyChimp said:


> Ha, thanks, but I actually just ended a relationship with an ISTJ. I think he was an unhealthy version, though.
> 
> I think ISTJs sound like they could be lovely to date but this one was just SO FLIPPING NEGATIVE. Off the top of my head, I can tell you 50 things he disliked about me: I'm untidy; I snore; I don't clip the 2 inches of grass in my garden between my fence and the sidewalk; I only use the turn indicator in my car about 98% of the time when I change lanes; I let my cat into the bedroom at night; I refuse to get rid of my perfectly good Queen sized bed to replace it with a King, etc. And I can only think of 2 positive things he ever said about me. 1. When he met me, I seemed "normal. 2. I am an honest person.
> 
> I'm just curious about other NFs' experiences with SJs since it feels as though SO much of the world is SJ.


Gurl, you didn't start running after the top 10, lol. What drew you to him?


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## pinkrasputin

Any NFs have experience with ESTJs? Sigh, I wish @AgAu would come back!


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## IndigoAbyss

Splintered in Her Head said:


> An example would be when I got pregnant. I was so excited that when he called me from work to tell me about a job change, I also told him I was pregnant (with our second child) His response: "That's not what I wanted to hear". I wanted the excitement an hugs that usually come with this kind of news. He stressed about having another kid instead of just for the moment being happy. He loves his daughter, don't get me wrong, but does not know how to be emotional. He was emotionally distant for some time after that news.
> Another time is when I was sick. I had some serious neurological issues that were difficult to diagnose. Some Drs thought MS, or Lou Gherig's disease, and till this day, I have undiagnosed neuropathies on both sides of my body. (The doctor said up to 35% of neuropathies are undiagnosed) Instead of trying to comfort me through these illnesses, he turns cold and basically tells me to get over it. He does not know how to be emotional. And forget cuddling!! I get a hug IF he thinks I need it. And it's forced. It is kind of sad at times, but I deal with it.
> 
> But, like I said before if I make a list of the good in him vs. the list of the bad, the good list is much longer. Nothing in this world is going to be perfect. I just have to deal with it.


I don't mean to be rude and I know this is an old post, but reading your response was almost too much for me. :sad:


----------



## NaughyChimp

IndigoAbyss said:


> What drew you to him?


 He was very steady and I'd come out of a looooooong-term relationship with a lovely but financially unreliable ENTP. Someone frugal and reliable seemed so attractive to me...


----------



## Splintered in Her Head

IndigoAbyss said:


> I don't mean to be rude and I know this is an old post, but reading your response was almost too much for me. :sad:


So sorry to make you sad. There are a great many things he does bring to the table, and I do love him for all the positives. Yes, the above seems very sad IF that was all I had, but it's not. It's just the bad stuff. He is so honest, to a fault as you see above, but I'd rather have honesty than bull****. I had dated guys who were liars and that really hurts. I can count on him to take care of his family before he plays. Always. He is really funny when he is in a good mood, and makes me laugh so hard I practically pee myself. His Dr. Heckyll and Mr. Hyde does pop in, but as of late, I've been letting him know about it and even if he is mad to begin with for me pointing it out, he'll eventually get what I'm saying and try harder. I've even gotten flowers TWICE in the last month, and that is a rarity for him. (yes, some say that's a sign of cheating, but that's not the case with him) I think he appreciates I am trying to make us better instead of giving up like many do. NF and SJ's are a whole lot of work, but I can honestly say, it is worth it. So please don't be sad. What doesn't kill us makes us better people....


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## RaRa

One of the most frustrating things my ESFJ boyfriend of 2 years does is when I do bring up any philosophical or "out-of-the-box" topics that interest me, all he says is "you weirdo." I understand that his mind doesn't work like that & I laugh and act like it doesn't bother me...but it leaves a void for me because I have such a deep need for people that I'm close to understand my "inner world"


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## pinkrasputin

RaRa said:


> One of the most frustrating things my ESFJ boyfriend of 2 years does is when I do bring up any philosophical or "out-of-the-box" topics that interest me, all he says is "you weirdo." I understand that his mind doesn't work like that & I laugh and act like it doesn't bother me...but it leaves a void for me because I have such a deep need for people that I'm close to understand my "inner world"


I SO remember something similar with my ESFJ ex. A lot of my ideas were deemed "silly" or "weird" by him. And sometimes he'd take things critically when they weren't intended that way. Yet, he was always dishing it out. 

Hmm. I'm now seeing an ESTJ and he loves my mind and ideas. But he is of the "sprung" variety. Lol. Whipped ESTJs are really refreshing. And my current ESTJ's love language is _words of affirmation_. I think my ESFJ ex's love language was_ acts of service_. I think that makes a difference.


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## RaRa

pinkrasputin said:


> I SO remember something similar with my ESFJ ex. A lot of my ideas were deemed "silly" or "weird" by him. And sometimes he'd take things critically when they weren't intended that way. Yet, he was always dishing it out.
> 
> Hmm. I'm now seeing an ESTJ and he loves my mind and ideas. But he is of the "sprung" variety. Lol. Whipped ESTJs are really refreshing. And my current ESTJ's love language is _words of affirmation_. I think my ESFJ ex's love language was_ acts of service_. I think that makes a difference.


My ESFJ boyfriend's love language is DEFINITELY acts of service! 
I realize _now_ that the ways he shows me he loves me are: cleaning the house before I get home from work, doing my laundry, washing my car, buying me dinner, getting me medicine when I'm sick, etc.
For the first 2 years we were together we fought a lot because I used to nag him that he didn't show me he loved me enough. _My idea of being shown love_: getting love notes, being serenaded, getting tattoos together, riding horses into the sunset, being "swept off your feet".... Well, I'm sure he was baffled at why I thought he didn't show me he loved me. Recently I've come to understand that doing little every-day things for me is how he shows me he cares. And now when I come home and find my clothes folded, my dirty dishes washed, and dinner waiting for me...I truly do feel swept off my feet because I know he's _really_ feelin' the love for me that day!


----------



## pinkrasputin

RaRa said:


> My ESFJ boyfriend's love language is DEFINITELY acts of service!
> I realize _now_ that the ways he shows me he loves me are: cleaning the house before I get home from work, doing my laundry, washing my car, buying me dinner, getting me medicine when I'm sick, etc.
> For the first 2 years we were together we fought a lot because I used to nag him that he didn't show me he loved me enough. _My idea of being shown love_: getting love notes, being serenaded, getting tattoos together, riding horses into the sunset, being "swept off your feet".... Well, I'm sure he was baffled at why I thought he didn't show me he loved me. Recently I've come to understand that doing little every-day things for me is how he shows me he cares. And now when I come home and find my clothes folded, my dirty dishes washed, and dinner waiting for me...I truly do feel swept off my feet because I know he's _really_ feelin' the love for me that day!


Hahaha! Yep, yep, yep! It threw me when I first saw my ESFJ ex doing my laundry. One time when I wasn't home, he completely filled my kitchen with groceries he had bought me. 

Oh and think the dude LIVED for my sick time. He would buy every type of medicine possible for me, including heating pads, etc. He also bought me 20 DVDs to watch while I recovered in bed. 

And taking me to dinner was always his thing. I remember whenever I'd first get into his car, he'd usually ask "Have you eaten?". And if I hadn't, he'd drive me over to one of my favorite sushi places before we did anything else. 

The ESFJ and I broke up over two years ago. But we still sort of stay in tiny, brief contact. He always does the cordial "Happy Xxx" holiday text. And I already posted on this thread about how just a couple of months ago I locked myself out of my house and away from my purse. I contacted a lot of people via Facebook and few phone numbers I had. The ESFJ was the first to respond and flew right over to help me with a locksmith (he thinks he is Batman). Lol. But I will also get the "sigh... You knucklehead" type comment when he "rescues" me. But I really see it like I'm doing him a huge favor when I've let him "rescue" me. :laughing: He lives for that crap and loves to be in that position.


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## RaRa

pinkrasputin said:


> Oh and think the dude LIVED for my sick time. He would buy every type of medicine possible for me, including heating pads, etc. He also bought me 20 DVDs to watch while I recovered in bed.


Hahaha this is _awesome_ because last week when I was sick (with just a common case of the sniffles) my ESFJ left the house for 15 minutes and came back with: an eight-pack of tissues, 2 kinds of cough drops, Chloraseptic throat spray, Vic's vapor rub, a thermometer, Breathe-Right strips, nasal decongestant spray, NyQuil and DayQuil, a big bottle of vitamin C, and a can of disinfecting spray (and everything was the most expensive, name-brand items, of course).
I never ask him to buy all this stuff for me when I get sick, but he always does...which is really sweet. However, sometimes when he does it the first thing he'll say is, "I spent so much money at the store, you don't even want to know how much." Then for the next few days he'll sarcastically complain about how he has to take care of me.....which kind of cancels out the "sweetness" right?!


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## pinkrasputin

RaRa said:


> Hahaha this is _awesome_ because last week when I was sick (with just a common case of the sniffles) my ESFJ left the house for 15 minutes and came back with: an eight-pack of tissues, 2 kinds of cough drops, Chloraseptic throat spray, Vic's vapor rub, a thermometer, Breathe-Right strips, nasal decongestant spray, NyQuil and DayQuil, a big bottle of vitamin C, and a can of disinfecting spray (and everything was the most expensive, name-brand items, of course).
> I never ask him to buy all this stuff for me when I get sick, but he always does...which is really sweet. However, sometimes when he does it the first thing he'll say is, "I spent so much money at the store, you don't even want to know how much." *Then for the next few days he'll sarcastically complain about how he has to take care of me.....which kind of cancels out the "sweetness" right*?!


 Bwahahaha!!!!!!! Oh the memories. Totally can relate!


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## AgAu

pinkrasputin said:


> Any NFs have experience with ESTJs? Sigh, I wish @AgAu would come back!


I'm still here! Been on a bit of a PerC holiday, but doing well. Life is a blissful roller coaster (oxymoron, perhaps?) with my ESTJ wifey. 

You're with an ESTJ now? How's that all going? I always knew you were a brave woman. This is a new frontier for you, though. Is he more or less extraverted than you are? I generally drop into an introverted role around her which is fine for me, as long as I have other regular and ongoing social situations in which to fire up my extraversion.


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## pinkrasputin

AgAu said:


> I'm still here! Been on a bit of a PerC holiday, but doing well. Life is a blissful roller coaster (oxymoron, perhaps?) with my ESTJ wifey.
> 
> You're with an ESTJ now? How's that all going? I always knew you were a brave woman. This is a new frontier for you, though. Is he more or less extraverted than you are? I generally drop into an introverted role around her which is fine for me, as long as I have other regular and ongoing social situations in which to fire up my extraversion.


Yay!!!!!!!! (HUGS). 

He is very extroverted and I've even taken on a shy role in public with him. He organizes the entire environment on dates beforehand, like talking to the restaurant owner, etc to make things extra special. So it's like I'm entering his world where he is introducing me to people. 

But he is VERY sprung on me (he just looked "sprung" up in the urban dictionary and agrees) and reaches out to me all day. I think that is an extroverted thing. He wants to be with me all the time and I don't mind. We are just having a very hard time taking things slow because neither of us want to.

I just have to learn that when he helps me organize things and follow through, that he is not judging. I feel sort of bad naturally that I'm not better with certain stuff that might seem obvious to others. And he doesn't criticize me. He is actually very patient and helps me (even though my mind checked out 20 minutes ago . I just wanna play :happy:


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## RaRa

This picture is _SOOO_ my ESFJ boyfriend and I! I laughed until I cried when I found it!


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## AgAu

pinkrasputin said:


> Yay!!!!!!!! (HUGS).
> 
> He is very extroverted and I've even taken on a shy role in public with him. He organizes the entire environment on dates beforehand, like talking to the restaurant owner, etc to make things extra special. So it's like I'm entering his world where he is introducing me to people.
> 
> But he is VERY sprung on me (he just looked "sprung" up in the urban dictionary and agrees) and reaches out to me all day. I think that is an extroverted thing. He wants to be with me all the time and I don't mind. We are just having a very hard time taking things slow because neither of us want to.
> 
> I just have to learn that when he helps me organize things and follow through, that he is not judging. I feel sort of bad naturally that I'm not better with certain stuff that might seem obvious to others. And he doesn't criticize me. He is actually very patient and helps me (even though my mind checked out 20 minutes ago . I just wanna play :happy:


The wifey has always had a smaller social circle than I, but is a more intense extravert around the people knows. I also tend to shy back into my own world around those people when I'm with her. I've read quite a few folks on her who call us ENFP the most introverted extraverts and I know I need time to sink into my own head here and there, so I use those opportunities as they present themselves. I just have to pay enough attention to steer her down safe paths as she has almost no social filter and will share almost anything that is on her mind at any time with anyone. It's part of what attracted me to her, it can also be quite dangerous when left unchecked.

The whole thing with organization and follow through, she came into my life at a time when I needed a whole lot of that. I can understand how some NF's could get irritated by that, but with her I never looked at it as criticism or being bossy, more just lending a hand. She's so talented at efficiency and organization, she knows it and wants to help. I can't say that she's never gone a bit overboard, but those are the spots where good communication is so important. I know where to speak up, and that if something just plain isn't going to work for me, she understands and we work out something else.


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## Geoffrey

NaughyChimp said:


> Ha, thanks, but I actually just ended a relationship with an ISTJ. I think he was an unhealthy version, though.
> I think ISTJs sound like they could be lovely to date but this one was just SO FLIPPING NEGATIVE. Off the top of my head, I can tell you 50 things he disliked about me: I'm untidy; I snore; I don't clip the 2 inches of grass in my garden between my fence and the sidewalk; I only use the turn indicator in my car about 98% of the time when I change lanes; I let my cat into the bedroom at night; I refuse to get rid of my perfectly good Queen sized bed to replace it with a King, etc. And I can only think of 2 positive things he ever said about me. 1. When he met me, I seemed "normal. 2. I am an honest person.
> I'm just curious about other NFs' experiences with SJs since it feels as though SO much of the world is SJ.


-----Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, but also keep in mind that it _is __my _opinion. There are a lot of good things about SJs. SJs are a critical part of society, and without them, much, much less would ever actually get accomplished. What I write about, below, is not about judging SJs as people. However, it is about pointing out areas of difficulty (resolvable through communication) and fundamental incompatibility (resolvable only through acceptance and respect for both people's personal autonomy) in their relationships with NFs. It is admittedly written from an NF bias, just as anything written by an SJ would have an SJ bias. If you want more on the positive qualities of SJs, I encourage to read Please Understand Me II. From my experience with lots and lots of SJs (as family, friends, and in relationships) and from what I've read, here are a few things NFs should keep in mind about SJs:

During courtship (before marriage), SJs can be very romantic and appreciative of romantic gestures, which can easily make an NF think that the SJ's nature is romantic. In fact, for SJs, marriage is an end-game (romance is a means to the end, which is marriage in a serious relationship, and particularly for SJ men, sex in a relationship that is not serious). Romance is something you do _before _marriage, and after marriage, it's time to drop all that foolishness and get to hard work. The NF will likely be left wondering, "What happened? Have I been tricked?" For the NF, courtship is important before marriage because we are trying to determine what the other person will be like in marriage--we expect continuity. So the NF is likely to be shocked by what seems like an abrupt change in personality. 
NFs want to be accepted for who they are, that moment, without being asked to change. So when SJs seem lovingly indulgent of our eccentricities or attracted to them, we think we are being accepted for who we are. But what is really happening is that they are noting deficiencies that they plan to later change--by changing you. I encourage NFs in or considering entering NF-SJ relationships to thoroughly read the chapter on mating in Please Understand Me II (David Keirsey) and the Pygmalion Project volumes on Guardian and Idealist (Stephen Montgomery). Also, if you don't know what the word *Pygmalion Project* means, then I really encourage you to look it up and read the books, above. What SJs ultimately want is for us to change in the ways they want us to change while at the same time they want us to retain the things about us (our ease with expressing love, our romance, etc.) they like. But they just don't seem to realize that you can't have it both ways. SJs are the most likely of all types to start a Pygmalion Project--a relentless one at that. So my advice to NFs is to get, before marriage, a clear picture of what your significant other thinks your role and their role in marriage is, what the marriage will be like, and how it will be different from now. 
SJs often (I say "often," but only one SJ in my SJ-saturated life has been different) feel entitled to tell you what to do, who to be, what to feel, what to think, and what opinions to have. From their perspective, there is a Right Answer to all of those things--they are just trying to help you by letting you know the Right Answer ("Geez, didn't you know _you _had the Wrong Answer?"). The real compatibility issue here is that someone with this kind of mindset sees your difference of opinion as an attack on tradition, society, and their personal self, and therefore is usually quite unwilling to compromise. Whereas an NF sees compromise as coming to a mutually acceptable solution, SJs seem to think of compromise as creating a vulnerability to danger--its more literal sense of erosion. In other words, they thrive on criticism (of you), stated or unstated, but are extremely sensitive and/or angered by criticism of them. 
-----Much of what I say about ISTJs may apply more generally to SJs, but I am not comfortable generalizing from these specific specifics. ISTJs make up somewhere in between 6-16% of the population, depending on the study, and _65%_ of the military. From my experience and from what I've read, here are a few things to keep in mind about ISTJs:

Their primary love language is Acts of Service. So if you think someone going to their job and taking care of the house is the most important thing, then you will be fine. My issue with Acts of Service can be summed up with this question: "Even if I weren't in your life, wouldn't you still go to your job and take care of the house?" In other words, don't try to sell it that you are doing those things for me. If you think Words of Affirmation ("I love you") and Physical Touch are the most important thing, then you are likely not to get your needs met in this relationship. The last two love languages, Quality Time and Receiving Gifts, I would list as less problematic.
ISTJs are likely to see sex as a duty--not as an expression of love. They are "doing it for you." Similarly, they expect you to "do it for them."
ISTJs have a rigid list of checklists, rules, and regulations that they follow as perfectly as they can--and they expect you to do the same--that is, follow their rigid system of lists. And if they have trouble communicating, then you will have to guess them--and they'll be mad if you guess wrong. And since they believe their system of lists is or should be universal, it is irrelevant if any of your needs or wants are in conflict.
Whenever anyone says anything, there is always a range of meaning that can be attributed to the words of others. ISTJs tend to select the most negative meaning and act like it is you who intended that meaning rather than accept the responsibility that it is they who are selecting the most negative meaning when actually the most positive thing was what was meant.
They create "win-lose" situations and tend to have black-or-white thinking. This is in clear contrast to NFs (especially INFPs and ENFPs), who tend to want to create "win-win" solutions and are open to the potential that more than one way of thinking is valid. 
Marriage with an ISTJ is more of a business partnership than it is what an NF would call a relationship. Yes, of course ISTJs love, just as everyone loves. However it is precisely the way in which we express or manifest love that speaks to relationship compatibility or incompatibility. 
ISTJs tend to be workaholics. In other words, work comes first, then chores, then obligations, and then you. Obviously, they would not see it that way. They would say by putting my job first, I am putting you first. Obviously, NFs are quite unlikely to see it that way.
ISTJs tend to hear positive self-value statements as negative judgments against them. For instance, saying, "I finished the crossword puzzle! I'm so smart!" will likely result in something like, "Are you saying I'm stupid?" Similarly, positive statements about them will likely be interpreted as negative value judgments. For instance, "You look so beautiful, today!" will likely be met with the response, "So, you think I'm hideous every other day?"
Attempts to be helpful are not valued for their motivation. For instance, not realizing she had to take the equipment back to work the next day, one time I asked, "Can I bring in your equipment from the car for you?" She responded, "What? So _I _have to haul it back into the car by myself early in the morning?"
Punishment, both direct and indirect, is considered an acceptable form of interpersonal conflict resolution.
-----This list is from PersonalityPage. The general relationship link follows. 
-----ISTJ Strengths

Honor their commitments
Take their relationship _roles _very seriously
Usually able to communicate what's on their minds with precision
Good listeners
Extremely good (albeit conservative) with money
Able to take constructive criticism well
Able to tolerate conflict situations without emotional upheaval
Able to dole out punishment or criticism when called for
-----ISTJ Weaknesses

Tendency to believe that they're always right
Tendency to get involved in "win-lose" conversations
Not naturally in-tune with what others are feeling
Their value for structure may seem rigid to others
Not likely to give enough praise or affirmation to their loved ones 
-----Source: Personality and Relationships 
-----See also: Compatibility Test Marriage Attributes- ISTJ!!
-----The good news is that ISTJs, at least, are likely to at least respond to your definition of what their duties encompass. They are likely to see working on a relationship as an indication of failure rather than as healthy maintenance, but they will do it. It is important to establish your boundaries with an ISTJ because they don't naturally observe them. Decide what your needs are and be prepared to take a firm stance.
-----This is my opinion, and I have a right to it, just as you have the right to yours. That said, the purpose of the article is to point out to NFs potential trouble spots and areas of fundamental incompatibility so that these issues can be addressed prior to (ideally) or after marriage. If you think I am "putting you into a box," I challenge you to consider that that assumption is coming from _you _(that you like to put people into boxes and are projecting that assumption onto me). I love Myers-Briggs because it gives us the tools to better understand, and so to better communicate, with each other. It also helps us appreciate and value each other's differences. Those assumptions (communication and appreciation) are what fuel me. I respect the right of others to disagree with me _so long as_ they respect my right to disagree with them.


----------



## Splintered in Her Head

Geoffrey said:


> -----Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, but also keep in mind that it _is __my _opinion. There are a lot of good things about SJs. SJs are a critical part of society, and without them, much, much less would ever actually get accomplished. What I write about, below, is not about judging SJs as people. However, it is about pointing out areas of difficulty (resolvable through communication) and fundamental incompatibility (resolvable only through acceptance and respect for both people's personal autonomy) in their relationships with NFs. It is admittedly written from an NF bias, just as anything written by an SJ would have an SJ bias. If you want more on the positive qualities of SJs, I encourage to read Please Understand Me II. From my experience with lots and lots of SJs (as family, friends, and in relationships) and from what I've read, here are a few things NFs should keep in mind about SJs:
> 
> During courtship (before marriage), SJs can be very romantic and appreciative of romantic gestures, which can easily make an NF think that the SJ's nature is romantic. In fact, for SJs, marriage is an end-game (romance is a means to the end, which is marriage in a serious relationship, and particularly for SJ men, sex in a relationship that is not serious). Romance is something you do _before _marriage, and after marriage, it's time to drop all that foolishness and get to hard work. The NF will likely be left wondering, "What happened? Have I been tricked?" For the NF, courtship is important before marriage because we are trying to determine what the other person will be like in marriage--we expect continuity. So the NF is likely to be shocked by what seems like an abrupt change in personality.
> NFs want to be accepted for who they are, that moment, without being asked to change. So when SJs seem lovingly indulgent of our eccentricities or attracted to them, we think we are being accepted for who we are. But what is really happening is that they are noting deficiencies that they plan to later change--by changing you. I encourage NFs in or considering entering NF-SJ relationships to thoroughly read the chapter on mating in Please Understand Me II (David Keirsey) and the Pygmalion Project volumes on Guardian and Idealist (Stephen Montgomery). Also, if you don't know what the word *Pygmalion Project* means, then I really encourage you to look it up and read the books, above. What SJs ultimately want is for us to change in the ways they want us to change while at the same time they want us to retain the things about us (our ease with expressing love, our romance, etc.) they like. But they just don't seem to realize that you can't have it both ways. SJs are the most likely of all types to start a Pygmalion Project--a relentless one at that. So my advice to NFs is to get, before marriage, a clear picture of what your significant other thinks your role and their role in marriage is, what the marriage will be like, and how it will be different from now.
> SJs often (I say "often," but only one SJ in my SJ-saturated life has been different) feel entitled to tell you what to do, who to be, what to feel, what to think, and what opinions to have. From their perspective, there is a Right Answer to all of those things--they are just trying to help you by letting you know the Right Answer ("Geez, didn't you know _you _had the Wrong Answer?"). The real compatibility issue here is that someone with this kind of mindset sees your difference of opinion as an attack on tradition, society, and their personal self, and therefore is usually quite unwilling to compromise. Whereas an NF sees compromise as coming to a mutually acceptable solution, SJs seem to think of compromise as creating a vulnerability to danger--its more literal sense of erosion. In other words, they thrive on criticism (of you), stated or unstated, but are extremely sensitive and/or angered by criticism of them.
> -----Much of what I say about ISTJs may apply more generally to SJs, but I am not comfortable generalizing from these specific specifics. ISTJs make up somewhere in between 6-16% of the population, depending on the study, and _65%_ of the military. From my experience and from what I've read, here are a few things to keep in mind about ISTJs:
> 
> Their primary love language is Acts of Service. So if you think someone going to their job and taking care of the house is the most important thing, then you will be fine. My issue with Acts of Service can be summed up with this question: "Even if I weren't in your life, wouldn't you still go to your job and take care of the house?" In other words, don't try to sell it that you are doing those things for me. If you think Words of Affirmation ("I love you") and Physical Touch are the most important thing, then you are likely not to get your needs met in this relationship. The last two love languages, Quality Time and Receiving Gifts, I would list as less problematic.
> ISTJs are likely to see sex as a duty--not as an expression of love. They are "doing it for you." Similarly, they expect you to "do it for them."
> ISTJs have a rigid list of checklists, rules, and regulations that they follow as perfectly as they can--and they expect you to do the same--that is, follow their rigid system of lists. And if they have trouble communicating, then you will have to guess them--and they'll be mad if you guess wrong. And since they believe their system of lists is or should be universal, it is irrelevant if any of your needs or wants are in conflict.
> Whenever anyone says anything, there is always a range of meaning that can be attributed to the words of others. ISTJs tend to select the most negative meaning and act like it is you who intended that meaning rather than accept the responsibility that it is they who are selecting the most negative meaning when actually the most positive thing was what was meant.
> They create "win-lose" situations and tend to have black-or-white thinking. This is in clear contrast to NFs (especially INFPs and ENFPs), who tend to want to create "win-win" solutions and are open to the potential that more than one way of thinking is valid.
> Marriage with an ISTJ is more of a business partnership than it is what an NF would call a relationship. Yes, of course ISTJs love, just as everyone loves. However it is precisely the way in which we express or manifest love that speaks to relationship compatibility or incompatibility.
> ISTJs tend to be workaholics. In other words, work comes first, then chores, then obligations, and then you. Obviously, they would not see it that way. They would say by putting my job first, I am putting you first. Obviously, NFs are quite unlikely to see it that way.
> ISTJs tend to hear positive self-value statements as negative judgments against them. For instance, saying, "I finished the crossword puzzle! I'm so smart!" will likely result in something like, "Are you saying I'm stupid?" Similarly, positive statements about them will likely be interpreted as negative value judgments. For instance, "You look so beautiful, today!" will likely be met with the response, "So, you think I'm hideous every other day?"
> Attempts to be helpful are not valued for their motivation. For instance, not realizing she had to take the equipment back to work the next day, one time I asked, "Can I bring in your equipment from the car for you?" She responded, "What? So _I _have to haul it back into the car by myself early in the morning?"
> Punishment, both direct and indirect, is considered an acceptable form of interpersonal conflict resolution.
> -----This list is from PersonalityPage. The general relationship link follows.
> -----ISTJ Strengths
> 
> Honor their commitments
> Take their relationship _roles _very seriously
> Usually able to communicate what's on their minds with precision
> Good listeners
> Extremely good (albeit conservative) with money
> Able to take constructive criticism well
> Able to tolerate conflict situations without emotional upheaval
> Able to dole out punishment or criticism when called for
> -----ISTJ Weaknesses
> 
> Tendency to believe that they're always right
> Tendency to get involved in "win-lose" conversations
> Not naturally in-tune with what others are feeling
> Their value for structure may seem rigid to others
> Not likely to give enough praise or affirmation to their loved ones
> -----Source: Personality and Relationships
> -----See also: Compatibility Test Marriage Attributes- ISTJ!!
> -----The good news is that ISTJs, at least, are likely to at least respond to your definition of what their duties encompass. They are likely to see working on a relationship as an indication of failure rather than as healthy maintenance, but they will do it. It is important to establish your boundaries with an ISTJ because they don't naturally observe them. Decide what your needs are and be prepared to take a firm stance.
> -----This is my opinion, and I have a right to it, just as you have the right to yours. That said, the purpose of the article is to point out to NFs potential trouble spots and areas of fundamental incompatibility so that these issues can be addressed prior to (ideally) or after marriage. If you think I am "putting you into a box," I challenge you to consider that that assumption is coming from _you _(that you like to put people into boxes and are projecting that assumption onto me). I love Myers-Briggs because it gives us the tools to better understand, and so to better communicate, with each other. It also helps us appreciate and value each other's differences. Those assumptions (communication and appreciation) are what fuel me. I respect the right of others to disagree with me _so long as_ they respect my right to disagree with them.


OMG this is a plethora of info that I can use to help me in my relationship with my ISTJ. Boy you hit the nail perfectly on the head and today is one of those days when I wonder if I can make it another day with him. I am going to study this and learn from it and use it to help us. Lord knows after so many years with him I don't want it to end because I really do love him but Uggg....well, today has been a bad day for us. 

Again, thanks for the info. You are a blessing!


----------



## Eleventeenth

Fine, just abandon the NT's and go for the SJ's. Maybe we NT's should start looking closer at the SP's. Or something.


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## Owfin

Eleventeenth said:


> Fine, just abandon the NT's and go for the SJ's. Maybe we NT's should start looking closer at the SP's. Or something.


Oh please, you get all the love on the internet, we get teenagers ranting about their parents.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

shasha001 said:


> I dated an istj it was horrible his Te clashes with my Fe(infj ): he would be too blunt with me he is not emotional at all and I am very sensitive. He would call me goofy, a weirdo etc..that S/N difference really made it difficult. My quirky ways annoyed him ): good luck hope you find an SJ and have better luck than I did


I have similar problems with my ISTJ, i bet its more the T than the SJ


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## pinkrasputin

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> I have similar problems with my ISTJ, i bet its more the T than the SJ


For me, it is the attitude of their dominant function. I have a problem with little communication or with little contact. I'm with a Te Dom now (ESTJ) and he always reaches out to me, texts me all day, calls me, keeps me informed about his life, and compliments me quite frequently. Yes, sometimes that T can be blunt and hurt my feelings, but it's nowhere near the pain of feeling invisible PLUS bluntness. 

All my friends are extroverts, Ts and Fs, S and N, yet we all seem to know how to say things we each want to hear. We all seem to need/want validation and we pick up on each other's vibes quickly. We also know when it's time to take a back seat when one of us needs to be in the spotlight. However, I do need to be reminded in my E/E relationship that he is the same way. He likes to sometimes be in the spotlight too and needs to hear his positive strengths and know he is appreciated. 

E/E is a wonderful duo in that there is so much outward expression(I've been starved for that) yet we need to "share" more. The fact that my extroverted partner is also completely different in other areas (NFP/STJ), is enough to not be pissed off constantly about witnessing my own flaws and weaknesses in another.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

pinkrasputin said:


> For me, it is the attitude of their dominant function. I have a problem with little communication or with little contact. I'm with a Te Dom now (ESTJ) and he always reaches out to me, texts me all day, calls me, keeps me informed about his life, and compliments me quite frequently. Yes, sometimes that T can be blunt and hurt my feelings, but it's nowhere near the pain of feeling invisible PLUS bluntness.
> 
> All my friends are extroverts, Ts and Fs, S and N, yet we all seem to know how to say things we each want to hear. We all seem to need/want validation and we pick up on each other's vibes quickly. We also know when it's time to take a back seat when one of us needs to be in the spotlight. However, I do need to be reminded in my E/E relationship that he is the same way. He likes to sometimes be in the spotlight too and needs to hear his positive strengths and know he is appreciated.
> 
> E/E is a wonderful duo in that there is so much outward expression(I've been starved for that) yet we need to "share" more. The fact that my extroverted partner is also completely different in other areas (NFP/STJ), is enough to not be pissed off constantly about witnessing my own flaws and weaknesses in another.


perhaps its the introversion that is the biggest problem then, because my husband and i are both ISxJ we dont constantly require the attention, i do however start to feel left out or upset when he pulls the silence maneuver, its similar to the silent treatment but im not sure hes intending to avoid contact for a particular outcome, he just falls into an abyss of silence and indifference or starts saying things that indirectly relate to our relationship in a hurtful way.


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