# INFP's/ESTJ's despise each other and INFJ's/ESTP's adore/copy each other. Why?



## Anubis

I've had a lot of trouble figuring out my exact type, but everyone I know who has an interest in MBTI insists I'm INFJ or possibly INTJ. Anyway... I idealize the ESTP/ISTP guy and I'm really good at pretending to be one. I think I have an inner ESTP, but my "true self" is INFJ. I know an older INFJ and he's really secure in who he is, but he has the same fascination with the ESTP personality and when we meet ESTP's we just click. 

My ESTP dad has a inner INFJ too, but he is most definitely a ESTP. He puts on a INFJ mask when he's around intellectual sort of people because he said he's sensitive about his physical, in the moment lifestyle. I think this is really interesting. 

INFP's on the other hand never want to be a ESTJ and a ESTJ never wants to be a INFP. They never get along either. This is also from experience and just cruising through this forum.

Why do we handle our "opposite" types so differently? INFP and ESTJ = same functions and ESTP and INFJ = same functions, but such different reactions.


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## Anubis

Despise may have been too harsh of a word to use... Haha


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## ParetoCaretheStare

The INFJs I know attempt to be more open-minded INFPs. They always have an underlying strain of jealousy when interacting with INFPs, because the INFP doesn't succumb to the superficial "J" function in trying to categorize themselves within a particular group in an extremely specific way. For example, INFPs choose to look more at the whole picture, whereas Js are much more attentive to details and can idealize themselves to want to be like a specific celebrity, especially classic beauties. From the ones I've known, it's been Brad Pitt and Marilyn Monroe. Therefore, INFJs adore extroverted ESTPs who not only naturally fit a role in pop culture and social media, but also look really really "cool" to the INFJ. The ESTP is happy to be looked upon as a godlike figure by the INFJ.

On the other hand, ESTJs seem too cold to the INFP. On top of that, INFPs hate having to succumb to social norms, and ESTJs are usually stoic and brag about how awesome they are at buying into consumer culture. INFPs can get really pissed off at other SJ functions in general, since the I makes them the ultimate NFs, who are blind to differences until they see the depth of a person's feeling-understanding first. 

I think J functions in general can make a person seem a lot meaner to Ps once they get to know them quite well.


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## Kito

ESTJ hate partly comes from total misunderstanding of Si. The rest of it is just natural Te/Fi conflict. Although it is rather curious, as far as I know ISFPs get on fairly well with ENTJs... and ENFPs seem to love ISTJs.


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## Anubis

Kito said:


> ESTJ hate partly comes from total misunderstanding of Si. The rest of it is just natural Te/Fi conflict. Although it is rather curious, as far as I know ISFPs get on fairly well with ENTJs... and ENFPs seem to love ISTJs.


Exactly haha. It's rather strange how INFPs and ESTJs can't get along and INFPs talk so much trash about them here, but all the other types have no problem with their "opposites"


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## baba yaga

ParetoCaretheStare said:


> the I makes them the ultimate NFs, who are blind to differences until they see the depth of a person's feeling-understanding first.


Good point. I always say that I hate people, in general (except freaks, nerds, and underdogs), but I can find something to like about anyone, once I've had a chance to talk with them.


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## Donovan

what i think "trash talking" comes down to is projection. yeah sure, all of these horrible stereotypes exist, but who are the one's actually portraying them? is "Type-A+B" really this monumental jerk, or is "Type-B+A" really just so _into _their lead B due the their (unconscious) self-rejection of A that they begin to see all the faults of the world in their view of their inferior A? in which case, wouldn't these stereotypes exist within the mind of the person projecting them, and when in the "grip", the stereotype again manifests in their own actions...?

in other words, these stereotypes really are apart of functions, but they are just a fraction of the whole, and they exist in a poorer, less developed form usually found in the inferior position of someone's functional make-up.

but then again, who's to say that person "A+B" cannot exhibit stereotypical signs related to their dominant even when those "signs" are considered a "lesser use" of their dominant function? unless the interplay between dominant and inferior is really just a thread-bare connection to a total psyche that has been sundered in two, meaning that each person in question is really the same coin with a different side expressed (almost like doppelganger [sp?] that we then spread and dump all of our "evil" qualities--gee i wonder where those folk-like ideas sprang from?).

on a side note: i think it's natural for people to have an appeal that they can't put words to when they encounter their opposites, and it's also just as common to have an intense dislike that is just as hard to speak on. so much would go into it that one could give you so many possibilities that could be a "right" answer that there would be almost no point in even speaking about it other than to say "... yeah"--unless you wanted to narrow it down for us?


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## LiquidLight

INFPs and ESTJs are much more alike than perhaps they'd both like to admit. In reality it actually might not be easy to tell them apart, because a lot of times all you might see with the INFP is a lot of wacky Te. Its the reason many people think Freud is a Te-dominant even though he's actually a Fi-dom. They can often come off as poor versions of Extraverted Thinking types to the outer world. I'm not sure that in reality INFPs have as much issue with Te-doms as the online community likes to assume (because honestly there's a lot of stuff that gets mixed up in SJ definitions that often real SJ's don't have, like conservatism or conscientiousness - these things are baked into Kiersey definitions and thus into the minds of a lot of people's type descriptions but not necessarily reflected in every Te-dom, and not necessarily absent from Fi-doms). 

But as an Extraverted Judgment function Te is going to be much more visible, if it does unconsciously get on your nerves, because it is a visible expression of the thing that you may try not to be consciously and because judgment functions affect decision making. What happens for people that don't get along with Te-doms is that they notice the judgmental nature of people with strong Te, without necessarily recognizing it in themselves so it becomes a game of projection - something _other people_ are doing. INTPs are similar with their Inferior Fe. Because ESTJs downplay their Introverted Feeling, there is a tendency for them to downplay people of this type as well (again not recognizing the influence of Fi in themselves). Because the function is extraverted, Te will be projected at the outer world. 

With INFJ/ESTPs the difference is that perception differences are often a lot less noticeable, and often not nearly as damning as judging differences. Typically the issue here will be Se-doms who just can't understand an INFJ's intuition (again not recognizing their own tendency to be intuitive) and the Se-dom may think the Ni-dom is just making stuff up, doesn't have evidence, lying, full of it, etc. Se-doms often look at Intuitives quizzically like "WTF are you talking about the evidence is right in front of your eyes!" where the Intuitive never takes anything at face value (but in reality I think this affects the intuitive more than the sensation type as Intuitives, because of the nebulous nature of Intuition are very, very misunderstood people in the larger society. Sensation types might refer to them as con artists or hacks or fools, or on the flip side, regard them with an amount of wisdom and sagacity that the Intuitive may not actually have). 

But in the case of INFJ/ESTP the INFJ generally appeals to Intuition as a way of going about the world, but Intuitions are quick and fleeting and only come every so often so the rest of the time, the Ni-dom is often sort of a bad Se-dom. Again just like the INFPs in real life look like poorly adapted Te-types, the INFJ in real life often looks like a poorly adapted Extraverted Sensation type (and because of their orientation around Se, and not being aware of its influence, may actually type themselves as Sensation types not realizing the degree to which they are intuitive). So I think as a result, as long as the Ni-dom isn't trying to explain everything to the Se-dom they probably co-exist just fine, one sort of brings the other out of their shell in just the right way, while the INFJ can patiently help the ESTP tune their intuitions, because these two types are very similar.


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## Murnando

WinklePlum said:


> I've had a lot of trouble figuring out my exact type, but everyone I know who has an interest in MBTI insists I'm INFJ or possibly INTJ. Anyway... I idealize the ESTP/ISTP guy and I'm really good at pretending to be one. I think I have an inner ESTP, but my "true self" is INFJ. I know an older INFJ and he's really secure in who he is, but he has the same fascination with the ESTP personality and when we meet ESTP's we just click.
> 
> My ESTP dad has a inner INFJ too, but he is most definitely a ESTP. He puts on a INFJ mask when he's around intellectual sort of people because he said he's sensitive about his physical, in the moment lifestyle. I think this is really interesting.
> 
> INFP's on the other hand never want to be a ESTJ and a ESTJ never wants to be a INFP. They never get along either. This is also from experience and just cruising through this forum.
> 
> Why do we handle our "opposite" types so differently? INFP and ESTJ = same functions and ESTP and INFJ = same functions, but such different reactions.


I'm xNFP, and I have a fair few ESTJ friends, and I get along with them just as well as I would any other type. There is more to personality and compatibility than MBTI. Friendship and personality comes down to ethical and world views, shared interests (or lack thereof) and similar humour styles. You'd be making quite a dangerous claim in saying that "INFPs and ESTJs despise each other".

If you personally don't get on with ESTJs, then that may be the case, but you need to ask yourself: Do you hate people that are ESTJs, or do you automatically assume that people you hate are ESTJs?


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## leadintea

My best friend is an ESTJ and I love her to death, but I wouldn't want to be an ESTJ. The dominant Te can be too cold for me, though I have no problems with Si.


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## Arrow

LiquidLight said:


> But in the case of INFJ/ESTP the INFJ generally appeals to Intuition as a way of going about the world, but Intuitions are quick and fleeting and only come every so often so the rest of the time, the Ni-dom is often sort of a bad Se-dom. Again just like the INFPs in real life look like poorly adapted Te-types


Would xNFP types be looked at as Ne doms? and xNFJ types looked at as Fe doms from the outside? INFP's first extraverted function would be Ne, not Te. Wouldn't the Ne be seen by people before Te if it's their inferior function? Same with INFJ's with Fe and Se. I would imagine people would notice the Ne/Fe with INFJ/INFP's before their inferior fourth functions.


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## LiquidLight

Arrow said:


> Would xNFP types be looked at as Ne doms? and xNFJ types looked at as Fe doms from the outside? INFP's first extraverted function would be Ne, not Te. Wouldn't the Ne be seen by people before Te if it's their inferior function? Same with INFJ's with Fe and Se. I would imagine people would notice the Ne/Fe with INFJ/INFP's before their inferior fourth functions.


Not necessarily. In both Jung and Beebe's theories (the 8-function model) the two functions that really matter are the dominant/inferior. That is the axis that shapes the person, the relationship between the two. The two middle functions are literally auxiliaries. In Beebe's theory the auxiliary centers more around our relationships with other people and the tertiary is sort of an immature kid-that-wont-grow-up function, but note in his theory these two functions are not self-defining but rather describe the person in relationship to how they approach the world. 

In Jung's theory the 1st aux supports the dominant and the 2nd aux (tertiary in modern theories) supports the Inferior. But the primary relationship is between dom/inf. If we look at it like Ying/Yang it begins to make more sense in terms of influence (and why in Psychological Types Jung only devotes a few paragraphs to the auxiliaries but focuses solely on the dom/inf relationship).








So if we look at it like this we see that the large black area is the dominant function with the white dot being the 1st auxiliary (say Ni/Fe or Ni/Te in a Ni-dom) and the large white area is the influence of the inferior function with the black dot being the 2nd auxiliary/tertiary. You can see then that the influence of the dom/inferior axis far outweighs that of the auxiliaries and why Jung talks about only really noticing the conscious (lead by the dominant) and unconscious (lead by inferior) natures of a person because these are really the focal points. People sometimes get erroneously caught up in the aux function, a lot of INFPs for example go on all these diatribes about their Ne, not realizing that 1) Jung never says that second aux has to be Extraverted, but only that it has to not be antagonistic to the dominant (so no dom-Thinking/aux-Feeling) and 2) auxiliary Ne plays a very minority component in the conscious functioning of the individual. INFPs are Introverted Feeling types first and foremost, with an intuitive bent to them. Many people on these forums would have you believe they were the opposite (partially due to the way MBTI interprets the functions where in MBTI the only functions that matter are extraverted functions, so in MBTI it's not the dominant that carries the strength but the dominant Extraverted function thus the assigning of J/P). So an INFP in MBTI really is defined by their Ne, when this would make no sense if we looked at Jung's theory because of course a minority component of the person's ego (Ne in this case) would not have the kind of influence over the dominant that MBTI asserts. 

So with Sigmund Freud, he's most certainly an Introverted Feeling type because his character was very much defined by the relationship between his Fi and Te. But we know from his theories and writings that he also had an intuition preference, but we cannot really know whether it was really Ne (as MBTI style type dynamics would insist) or just sort of undifferentiated Intuition. 

When Jung talks about himself as a Ti-dom he also says his Intuition is unconscious (or undifferentiated) meaning he recognizes a preference toward Intuition (and Von Franz backs it up from her personal accounts of Dr. Jung) but never goes as far as to say it was Ne (in fact he's quoted once as saying he used Ni). In his theories a Ti-dom could easily be Ti-Ne or Ti-Ni, Ti-Se or Ti-Si, and I think Jung's version of this is much, much more an accurate description of people and probably why so many people don't fit so neatly into the Ti-Ne-Si-Fe type dynamics model. You see Ne doms who have a Feeling preference that seems more Fe than Fi, so they aren't quite ENTPs because they don't favor Thinking but not ENFPs because their aux may not be Fi either. To Jung it was always Ne-F-T-Si, which seems to be backed up by some more recent studies that the Center for Applications of Psychological Type (CAPT) have done, that the tertiary is not necessarily always the same attitude as the dominant as type dynamics insists and that the two middle functions may be much more fluid meaning that the number of actual types will be much more than 16. That's partially why Dr. Jung focused solely on the influence of dom/inferior instead of opening up the can of worms on the two middle functions. To keep it simple and basic because his model of the functions is much more three-dimensional and fluid. But you can always simplify down to Introverted Intuitives with a Feeling aux or IN(F), or Extraverted Sensation types supported by Thinking or ES(T), rather than goes as far as to say INFJ and ESTP which implies a rigid hierarchy. 

So in short in the original theory no, you would not necessarily notice the Ne of a Fi-dom before noticing their Te because Fi/Te are always working in concert. They cannot be separated they are two sides of the same coin. Subjective and objective measures of judgment and you need to be able to do both even if you consciously prefer one to the other. The person themselves might think they're being more Ne (and possibly even adapt Ne-like tendencies or problems) but the spine of their conscious selves are still defined by Fi/Te.


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## JungyesMBTIno

I've never mistyped as an Se dom/aux type or ever came close for that matter (when I first became aware of Se, it was largely a "how the F can anyone want to live like this" function), but I can kind of see where some Ni doms might if they are largely adapted to being more extraverted than they really are (which I never really was), largely due to the fact that Ni is very misunderstood IRL. I personally do think that the aux. functions matter more than Jung made them out to, but since that's personal, what's it worth? I mean, I'm pretty sure outside of the heavily intellectual realm of Jungian conceptual integrity that I've never saw any person as mistakable with their inferior function as a dominant. I've definitely seen IRL inferiority complexes around the inferior though (e.g. Fi dominants tend to be extreme perfectionists when it comes to achievements or it's 100% the other way around where they couldn't care less about achieving anything of conceptual value - the 50/50 nature of the inferior function - the Te dominants often absolutely feel compelled to prove their values to themselves, or they go the other way and get almost oddly self-loathing). I understand the outward similarities between the Te doms/Fi inferiors and Fi doms/Te inferiors though, where the Te doms can often get super self-depricating in terms of self worth to themselves (they can get scarily depressive and self-loathing at their worst and self-denying), while the Fi doms can get super self depricating in terms of how worth it their selves can really be in the scheme of things (in other words, emo). The inferior certainly says a lot about the state of the dominant, though.


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## Adventure

Our behaviour may change in certain company, but i'd rather shoot my self in the head than be like INFJ's.


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## JungyesMBTIno

Adventure said:


> Our behaviour may change in certain company, but i'd rather shoot my self in the head than be like INFJ's.


LOL. I think I can see that your coming from where my last post is. I mean, I have nothing personally against most Se doms (hello, I have friends who are), but yes, living like an Se dominant is definitely not my cup of tea. I think my brain would explode. I agree on your behavior point. I suspect it's natural for types to resort to the inferior function in behavioral displays to overcompensate for the lack of it they feel in their awareness of it. There are times when Se kicks in well for me, but other times, I'm like "how on Earth am I coming off to other people in terms of physical expression - I have no clue other than faint intuitions about it, and I just have their reactions to go by and intuit from).


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## Spades

People on PerC have highly skewed perceptions of what ESTJ's are _supposed_ to be like. Most of these don't stand up to reality.

_ No, your dad isn't strict because he's an ESTJ! He's strict because he's you goddamn parent!_


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## JungyesMBTIno

Yeah. Some of the nicest and most sincere people I know are probably some inferior Fi types, not even kidding (even if their behavior doesn't invoke this impression at a distant glance - who cares though, because behaviorism is stereotyping). They tend to give out the best compliments imo, because they say them when they really mean them or really feel like meaning them. Not trying to create more stereotypes, of course, but I always found these experiences really ironic based on the ridiculous borderline Nazi stereotypes that circulate about them - I mean, call me a Nazi then if I feel this way, but my experiences are true as I stated them, regardless of anyone's typism.


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## INFJAnimal

I don't know about you, Winkle, but ESTPs scare the crap out of me. But then again, I've found my INFJ soulmate. As I've said before...when we disagree...









Kablooey!!!


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## JungyesMBTIno

ESFPs and me: There's like this hilarious sense of ambivalence between us much of the time - like, we tend to be either very disinterested in each other, or we're just neutrally playing with each other, or neutrally asking each other questions, or neutrally pointing stuff out to each other and feeling mighty relaxed while doing it - all with this neutral sense of intrigue underlying our interactions, if that's even possible. I've managed to click with some - one from my English class said that she loved me (not in a gay way, lol), and I thought she was a cool person as well - once again, in a weirdly neutral way (as in, I couldn't quite place why). Entertaining as well (there was this one ESFP in my AP Psych class who pretty much freaked out when my Psych teacher was talking about Jungian archetypes, LOL - funny inferior Ni reaction, since this wasn't in any way remotely related to tangibility - that cracked me up, of course). Some can be very easy to talk to really. Sometimes, I admire the way they point out stuff that I would love to be seen pointing out. At worst, I'm ready to run for the hills from them.


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## LiquidLight

Yea I really like ESFPs, though I don't know if I could date one. But the ones I've come across are genuinely good-natured, fun people (to me ESTPs are a little harder edged). I know a number of ESFPs men and women, old and young, and they have a great depth of caring about people (often unexpressed but you know its there) and a real sense of adventure and novelty and openness to experience which I generally tend to love. At worst they can be sort of overly impulsive and rash and hedonistic (actually any type can be these things but I think I just notice it more in Se-doms because of my own inferior Se). Fi-doms for me come of as much harsher (no doubt the Fi/Te thing going). I feel like the eye of a Fi-dominant ISFP is much, much more discerning and much more self-interested than the ESFP almost as if there's an unspoken test you have to pass first to win their approval (wouldn't surprise me given the nature of Introverted Feeling).


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## Immerseyourself

TheRevaN said:


> Ok this is really last post and I will make it as short and clear as possible.
> 
> It does not matter if throwing a party is a detriment to society or not in this case.
> You have a really simple problem you have to deal with in life ( the music is too loud ), and instead of finding a solution you come and vent online. You actually have to get a solution from a random guy on the internet because you are under the impression that the only way of going about this is convincing everyone that having fun is immoral ( and that is just sad ) . You actually refuse the solution, and instead of just saying thanks, doing it and resolving this little problem of yours forever, you try to get the random guy into an argument about wheter parties are moral or not.
> 
> I simply can't understand how people like you even manage to stay alive...


/sigh....

#1. What do you expect me to do? Go tell them to shut their music off, or turn down the volume? Tell me, _does that work!?_ Common sense and my intuition tells me _it won't_.
#2. I never posted on here with the intention of venting about music. I saw the title and thought I'd chip in with my reasons. I was answering the OP. _You_ decided that you didn't like what I had to say about "parties being detrimental" and tried to argue against it. You have, so far, not provided _any_ constructive arguments to back it up. Instead, you try to flame me (not unexpected ---> points to #1 for solving a problem) and decide that I can't manage to stay alive because I have an issue with people like you who decide you want to keep the neighborhood up all night.
#3. The only 'solution' you put forward was wearing a headset/earplugs/etc. Not only is that selfish, and shifting the burden on to me, but _I am likely not the only one with the problem_. Try being less selfish, be more introspective about your decisions, and actually do something beneficial for society.
Did I make myself abundantly clear, or do you want me to s.p.e.l.l. it out for you? 
Have you ever seen an INFP get pissed? If you said that last piece to me in person you would see more of me than you'd ever count on. You better believe buddy, because I probably wouldn't be able to hold myself back.


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## TheRevaN

Immerseyourself said:


> /sigh....
> 
> #1. What do you expect me to do? Go tell them to shut their music off, or turn down the volume? Tell me, _does that work!?_ Common sense and my intuition tells me _it won't_.
> #2. I never posted on here with the intention of venting about music. I saw the title and thought I'd chip in with my reasons. I was answering the OP. _You_ decided that you didn't like what I had to say about "parties being detrimental" and tried to argue against it. You have, so far, not provided _any_ constructive arguments to back it up. Instead, you try to flame me (not unexpected ---> points to #1 for solving a problem) and decide that I can't manage to stay alive because people like you decide you want to keep the neighborhood up all night.
> #3. The only 'solution' you put forward was wearing a headset/earplugs/etc. Not only is that selfish, and shifting the burden on to me, but _I am likely not the only one with the problem_. Try being less selfish, be more introspective about your decisions, and actually do something beneficial for society.
> Did I make myself abundantly clear, or do you want me to s.p.e.l.l. it out for you?
> Have you ever seen an INFP get pissed? If you said that last piece to me in person you would see more of me than you'd ever count on.


lol I tremble )))))


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## Vanishing Point

Immerseyourself said:


> I went to a party a couple weeks back. For my troubles I received a big bill, a headache, and the cat-calls of three women (who I would call trailer trash) a table across from us who decided they wanted to nitpick at the appearance of all the men at the table. The women luckily appeared about fifteen minutes before I left
> 
> I don't do parties. I'll be fine to begin with, but within the next hour to an hour and a half I'll get headaches, become irriated and impatient, and I'm ready to leave. It also depends on my mood and who I am with. Sometimes I can drink to excess and fit in, but mostly the majority of time if I exceed about three bottles of beer, I'll clam up and begin the descent into my introversion.
> 
> I enjoy my time with books and browsing online. I also enjoy the occasional gaming. Parties suck up so much of my energy that it is ridiculous. If you didn't know, introverts are actually sensitive to dopamine creation, which is caused by stuff like parties. An excess amount of it can unbalance us emotionally and physically. Extroverts thrive off adrenaline and dopamine creation, using it to fuel their energy. So if you like parties, chances are you energize from them.
> I don't.
> 
> P.S. I never mentioned anything about mindless animals. Your failure to keep within the confines of my wording does not count as a failure on my part, or that I actually said what you stated. I stated that you guys can have loud mouths (which you can) and you can scream a lot (which you can).
> I _hear it_ all the frigging time. It is generalizing, yes, but you don't hear me shutting up and being quiet. Feel free to generalize about my type being quiet, morose, etc. It is usually true!


Not all introverts dislike parties. I like parties very much. I usually stick to my group of friends or people I know when I am in one but get introduced to new people. It's fine and fun. Many people I know who hang out at shows are all types of introverts.
Thinking of your story reminds me of a funny thing that happened to me and my INFP ex while living in London. We lived in a room in an an old Victorian house. There was this buch of Swedes living down the corridor having a loud party EVERY night. It was really pissing us off because we had to work in the morning. He was really getting pissed off and kept telling me he was going to go there and give them a piece of his mind. After a good few months if talking about it one night there was an rspecially loud party going in he got very angry and said "enough" and marched out of the door to go tell them off. 
Five minutes later, he was not back, ten minutes , twenty... I was getting really worried. I went over to their room and there was a huge party going on, knocked in the door ... A hammered half dressed swede opened th door and said "yes?" 
I asked if by any chance a tall thin guy had come around. He opened the door and my ex was drinking vodka straight from a luge wearing a hockey helmet saying that he'd had the greatest idea and we were going to be moving in with his new best friends. Lol. Which we did. After a while he was the one answering the door to complaining neighbors 
....then we got evicted and moved on sans the swedes. Lol.


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## LibertyPrime

@Anubis 

To respond to OPs question, its because we are talking about rational functions & not irational. Fi is very different from Te in what kind of decisions are reached & how. In IxFPs Te may be used to support Fi value judgments while in ExTJs the reverse is true: Fi value judgments are made in support of Te.

In both cases under stress Fi or Te is used in a negative way. ExTJs may reach negative value judgments about others & possibly themselves, deeming them incompetent, useless, etc..while Fi doms turn controlling, forceful & apply negative criticism towards themselves and others.

Neither is comfortable functioning as the other, yet we do, like it or not.


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## Khiro

Immerseyourself said:


> You make a good point there, and it hasn't escaped me either. I've always decided that because of the fact they would be annoyed and feel I am proving a barrier to their desire to party, and I cannot abide their desire to party, that we are best separate.
> I will point out that their partying achieves greater dissonance within the environment than my quietly reading or browsing the internet would cause.
> Music not only sends out sound waves that can physically damage and destroy/deteriorate things (I've seen the damage of sound waves first-hand in infrastructure before) but music can also disrupt people and cause emotional/physical short-term deterioration through sleep disturbance and the disturbance of peace.
> If you apply the negatives of partying to the negatives of reading/browsing online, then you'll find that the former _greatly_ outweighs the latter in global inconvenience and damage.
> I haven't even mentioned the damage of drunk driving, health issues of over-intoxication, the chances of unplanned pregnancies, possible STDs, accumulative brain damage, wasting police resources, etc.
> What issues do reading/browsing online cause to society as a whole in comparison to partying?
> 
> Therefore, if you take the moral highground, and also point towards the possibilites I proposed (granted I didn't propose that of reading/browsing online) with regards to the greater picture, then you have huge issues.


That's such a wonderfully INFP response (sincerely). I very much imagine you're right that partying has a greater effect on the environment, although I still believe it's an entirely valid lifestyle if sufficient responsibility is upheld, which, in my experience, it often is. I wouldn't know where to begin if I were to attempt to formulate an argument about the harm of reading and browsing - I'd likely Ti overload and my brain would burst as I attempted to work out the variables. I just wanted to draw attention to the similar motivations behind the behaviour. I very much respect the fact that you'd acknowledged it and recognized a suitable solution in distancing yourself.


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## Asiam

In a way Im jealous of ESTJs reliability, confidence to do the things they need to do, and ability to set up social gatherings and events so naturally. At the same time I wouldn't want to be one. They look stressed all the time to me. At least the one I know, my dad. Even when things are going well, he will be stressed about money despite having a decent paying job while the economy is bad, stressed about not making a deadline even though it's not a deadline that matters (10 minutes late to pick up family?) and get so angry as to start ranting about people angrily. Anything I say to my dad that has some feelings in it is usually rationalized by him as if he doesn't want to relate because it's heavy. Like *sigh* Yeah, well. Things are what they are. And I didn't bring up anything heavy, just an observation about something in the world, which to me is always a positive thing even if it's about a negative part of the world because knowing and speaking it is exploring and learning and that is positive. Anyways...

I think ESTJs can make great parents, I can contrast this with my unhealthy INFP mom and feel a breath of damn fresh air when I'm with my dad because at least he is stable and I feel safe. Also he will not overstep boundaries by talking about things that I shouldn't hear, whereas my mom has no problem trying more to get her emotions out in front of me rather than keep some things to herself. So in a way I respect ESTJs for the way they take on their roles and responsibilities and are always stressing themselves to be better. But I still don't like being around them, they make everything so stressful and I can't figure out what substance there is in their conversations? It's like they talk but nothing is said... At least to me. It's gotten to the point where most of our conversations are just long, awkward silences, and my dad trying to bring up topics, but his topics are always just rants. Maybe my negativity feeds his? I feel like ESTJs and INFPs can both have problems with negativity.


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## Aelthwyn

a few little off the top of my head theories on this.

1. I have heard it said many times that America in particular is an ESTJ culture. INFPs may be especially bitter toward ESTJs if they have grown up in a predominantly ESTJ culture - they have been worn thin and don't have much more patience for dealing with the differences they have with this particular type - and may also be inclined to view ESTJs less as individual people and more as an oppressive system. There is a difference between everyone seeming to demand you become more like a certain type and distinguishing for yourself a certain type as being admirable or ideal. Of course I really don't know whether INFJs feel put upon to become more ESTJ or more ESTP - this is just a possible issue that could influence people's oppinions of eachother. 

2. INFPs and ESTJs are lead by judging functions Fi and Te, while INFJs and ESTPs are lead by perceiving functions Ni and Se. This difference could perhaps have something to do with how one deals with opposites. It seems to me, at least, that although many people feel that N vs. S causes the greatest clashes, that T vs. F clashes are a bit more... intense or painful, while perception clashes strike me as more confusing but not necessarily as traumatizing. I could be wrong though, especially since perceiving isn't my lead function. 

3. the use of Fe/Ti as opposed to the use of Fi/Te might have some part in this as well, but given the many long discussions I've seen particularly about the differences between Fe and Fi I don't really feel like trying to go into explanations here as to exactly how because it seems to be a confusing and heated topic and I don't feel up to simplifying my (possibly wrong) understanding in a useful way at the moment.


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## Doc Dangerstein

... this might be the wine talking, but I have a theory.

I've had many failed relationships with people of the SJ temperament; and, I don't think it has anything to do with the temperament proper but rather, with the clash of values this temperament maintains. SJs by definition are people who look to the past, feel most comfortable in maintaining those values in the present and projecting them into the future. They will work to maintain this stability.

Conservatism doesn't have to be a bad thing; because there are values and traditions worth conserving just as there are values and traditions that need to change because they have been made obsolete or unethical by our inquiry into the subject. In light of this, I would like us to explore a slight tangent. The conflict is not with the ESTJ as a type but with the ESTJ raised within an ailing society.

Imagine an ESTJ born in a society governed by mutual respect, generosity and benevolence. Now imagine the same ESTJ born in a society greed, cut throat competition and into a family whose cardinal virtue is might makes right. Same type; two remarkably different people.

To touch upon socionics; the concept of duality in particular. I don't think duality is an ideal choice for a romantic relationship. Duality is a relationship of mutual benefit where we learn of our strengths and our weaknesses. An ISxJ can teach me perseverance and a respect for what was good in the past. I can teach an ISxJ to welcome positive change.

- An ENxP


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## Cthulhu And Coffee

Firstly, thank you very much for drawing conclusions about me - a wise decision seeing as I don't even know you.

I don't "adore or copy" ESTPs. I have an ESTP shadow just like any other type has of their opposite OR SO THE THEORY STATES. But I strongly believe that any time you have to despise another human being, you have some issues you need to work out. That doesn't mean you need to "adore" letalone copy them, either. Both seem like unnecessary extremes to me.


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## Xenograft

I disagree with the thread's title.


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## FakeLefty

Xenograft​;4680368 said:


> I disagree with the thread's title.


So do I. I never consciously copy INFJs, and I don't think I inadvertently do so either.


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## mirrorghost

Aelthwyn said:


> a few little off the top of my head theories on this.
> 
> 1. I have heard it said many times that America in particular is an ESTJ culture. INFPs may be especially bitter toward ESTJs if they have grown up in a predominantly ESTJ culture - they have been worn thin and don't have much more patience for dealing with the differences they have with this particular type - and may also be inclined to view ESTJs less as individual people and more as an oppressive system. There is a difference between everyone seeming to demand you become more like a certain type and distinguishing for yourself a certain type as being admirable or ideal. Of course I really don't know whether INFJs feel put upon to become more ESTJ or more ESTP - this is just a possible issue that could influence people's oppinions of eachother.
> 
> 2. INFPs and ESTJs are lead by judging functions Fi and Te, while INFJs and ESTPs are lead by perceiving functions Ni and Se. This difference could perhaps have something to do with how one deals with opposites. It seems to me, at least, that although many people feel that N vs. S causes the greatest clashes, that T vs. F clashes are a bit more... intense or painful, while perception clashes strike me as more confusing but not necessarily as traumatizing. I could be wrong though, especially since perceiving isn't my lead function.
> 
> 3. the use of Fe/Ti as opposed to the use of Fi/Te might have some part in this as well, but given the many long discussions I've seen particularly about the differences between Fe and Fi I don't really feel like trying to go into explanations here as to exactly how because it seems to be a confusing and heated topic and I don't feel up to simplifying my (possibly wrong) understanding in a useful way at the moment.


i agree with all of this, and i think #1 is so true. we live in a heavily SJ culture i think (speaking of american culture here.) hard work, tradition, duty, etc., seem to be stereotypical american values. our culture has also become increasingly competitive and materialistic. not to say that everyone in the US is this way, but this is the way the culture is. as an INFP, i find it very stifling and sometimes alienating, especially if you are a more "live and let live" kind of person. i think it's easier for some people to assimilate to such a culture, but for some of us it is quite difficult.


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## monemi

I always avoided INFJ's in real life. Online, I'm starting to 'get them' and they seem nice enough. But I don't think INFJ/ESTP adore/copy each other. 



And love the posts from INXX's who are just way too sophisticated and mature to lower themselves to party like normal people. What bad things come from being a shut in reading all the time? You'll live to be old, wearing dentures and so boring and lonely you try to start conversations with telemarketers. I'm so glad that won't be me.


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## Cellar Door

monemi said:


> I always avoided INFJ's in real life. Online, I'm starting to 'get them' and they seem nice enough. But I don't think INFJ/ESTP adore/copy each other.
> 
> 
> 
> And love the posts from INXX's who are just way too sophisticated and mature to lower themselves to party like normal people. What bad things come from being a shut in reading all the time? You'll live to be old, wearing dentures and so boring and lonely you try to start conversations with telemarketers. I'm so glad that won't be me.


Reading books sucks 99.99999% of the time, people need to realize the internet was invented for a reason.


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## Cellar Door

I don't think INFPs and ESTJs despise each other as much as INTPs and ESTJs.


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## monemi

Cellar Door said:


> Reading books sucks 99.99999% of the time, people need to realize the internet was invented for a reason.


Books can be good. Just, I'm thinking really hard and I can't remember a book that gave me a good orgasm or a rush of adrenalin. There are limits to what books can do for a person.


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## spiderfrommars

This is a major exaggeration, but not totally wrong. I often love fictional ESTPs and identify with them. I've known two in real life whose type I'm sure of. One was a close friend in college, and while we sometimes struggled to understand each other's priorities, we definitely were drawn to each other and really got along well. One I didn't like so much, and we had a (bizarre) falling out.

I've noticed that Ti/Fe users often are drawn to their opposite, while Fi/Te users are often repelled by theirs. I'm not sure why that is, exactly, but I think it's because Ti/Fe can lead to a fascination with other peoples' viewpoints. The Fe is interested in others, the Ti is interested in hearing about other logical constructs than its own. As long as another person's logic has internal consistency, they can respect it. So for some of these people, it leads them to be drawn to each other specifically for their differences.

Te/Fi, on the other hand, sees there only being one way of looking at things--the objectively true, logical one (Te). And their Fi backs that up, finding moral issue with the untrue things people believe. What's interesting is I've noticed Fi can be very willing to assume everybody has good intentions, especially when they don't know much about them. But they are also comfortable criticizing their actions from a Te standpoint. Fi/Te people stand up for 
their beliefs more, and that leads to more conflict.

I know a INFP who's attracted to ESTJs, but then criticizes them for being ESTJs!


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## Khiro

FakeLefty said:


> So do I. I never consciously copy INFJs, and I don't think I inadvertently do so either.


I think it's more about competing. Where one party impresses the other the other seeks to outdo them. I'm basing this only on my own experience with my ESTP friend. He jumps, I jump, and vice versa. Naturally I'm trying to jump higher, but I can see how it looks like copying. Despite being very different on the outside, we tend to mirror one another quite a lot, with one following willingly and happily where the other takes the lead and vice versa.


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## Lunaena

My teacher is an ESTJ woman and we are almost incapable of having a conversation without both of us becoming annoyed and frustrated at each other. She is quite young for being a teacher. I can feel her Si growing stronger everytime she sees me. I can't talk about future projects with her because she keeps asking me; "so what's your plan?" - but she won't accept that I simply have no "plan". I don't work that way. I simply make up an image of what I want in my mind and go straight into whatever I need to do to do it. Like bringing a video camera and start filming.


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## Mammon

vladvinteria said:


> I can feel her Si growing stronger everytime she sees me.


Can you feel it? CAN YOU FEEL THE POWER?!






LMAO


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## Entropic

spiderfrommars said:


> This is a major exaggeration, but not totally wrong. I often love fictional ESTPs and identify with them. I've known two in real life whose type I'm sure of. One was a close friend in college, and while we sometimes struggled to understand each other's priorities, we definitely were drawn to each other and really got along well. One I didn't like so much, and we had a (bizarre) falling out.
> 
> I've noticed that Ti/Fe users often are drawn to their opposite, while Fi/Te users are often repelled by theirs. I'm not sure why that is, exactly, but I think it's because Ti/Fe can lead to a fascination with other peoples' viewpoints. The Fe is interested in others, the Ti is interested in hearing about other logical constructs than its own. As long as another person's logic has internal consistency, they can respect it. So for some of these people, it leads them to be drawn to each other specifically for their differences.
> 
> Te/Fi, on the other hand, sees there only being one way of looking at things--the objectively true, logical one (Te). And their Fi backs that up, finding moral issue with the untrue things people believe. What's interesting is I've noticed Fi can be very willing to assume everybody has good intentions, especially when they don't know much about them. But they are also comfortable criticizing their actions from a Te standpoint. Fi/Te people stand up for
> their beliefs more, and that leads to more conflict.
> 
> I know a INFP who's attracted to ESTJs, but then criticizes them for being ESTJs!


I just think the difference is how Fi and Fe are different in how it orients towards people. Fi is harsher in judgements so it's not so much a matter of being drawn or not drawn, but it's more that either you like the person or you don't. Personally as a Te type, I'm inextricably drawn to Fi though, but if I find the person repulsive... well, they are repulsive. I won't even try to get along because I've already made that moral judgement.


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## spiderfrommars

ephemereality said:


> I just think the difference is how Fi and Fe are different in how it orients towards people. Fi is harsher in judgements so it's not so much a matter of being drawn or not drawn, but it's more that either you like the person or you don't. Personally as a Te type, I'm inextricably drawn to Fi though, but if I find the person repulsive... well, they are repulsive. I won't even try to get along because I've already made that moral judgement.


Good point. I find it takes me a very long time to figure out whether or not I like somebody. I spend a lot of time getting to know them, learning more about them, before I notice that I don't actually enjoy spending time with them. It takes a really strong pattern.

I find with most people, my emotional state toward them resets to a kind of "neutral" after a given interaction. For people I've had long relationships with, their personal "neutral" shifts--it's hard to explain what precisely makes them distinct, because it's more than positive/negative. It's a more complex flavor. And a person's flavor can change over time, but very slowly.

An interesting aspect to this is that while I get angry frequently, there are few people I legitimately dislike or hate. One of them being aforementioned ESTP, heh. 

So when I start interacting with somebody, I approach them from a very blank state of trying to find out what they are like without really considering whether that's something I approve of. That tendency might lead Ti/Fe opposites to communicate more with each other. But I think you're right, they won't actually be drawn together more frequently. They'll find they don't actually like each other after a period of time, and drift away.


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## Lunaena

Accurate.


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## C3bBb

monemi said:


> Books can be good. Just, I'm thinking really hard and I can't remember a book that gave me a good orgasm


Not even Fifty Shades? :tongue:


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## Entropic

spiderfrommars said:


> Good point. I find it takes me a very long time to figure out whether or not I like somebody. I spend a lot of time getting to know them, learning more about them, before I notice that I don't actually enjoy spending time with them. It takes a really strong pattern.
> 
> I find with most people, my emotional state toward them resets to a kind of "neutral" after a given interaction. For people I've had long relationships with, their personal "neutral" shifts--it's hard to explain what precisely makes them distinct, because it's more than positive/negative. It's a more complex flavor. And a person's flavor can change over time, but very slowly.
> 
> An interesting aspect to this is that while I get angry frequently, there are few people I legitimately dislike or hate. One of them being aforementioned ESTP, heh.
> 
> So when I start interacting with somebody, I approach them from a very blank state of trying to find out what they are like without really considering whether that's something I approve of. That tendency might lead Ti/Fe opposites to communicate more with each other. But I think you're right, they won't actually be drawn together more frequently. They'll find they don't actually like each other after a period of time, and drift away.


Yeah, that's quite odd to me. I am in a blank state before I meet the person as I tend to still operate from a point of neutrality unless I already know what kind of person we are talking about, then I have already made a premature judgement about their character, and from there my entire interaction with them is shaped based on how I relate towards this feeling of like-dislike. 

For people I have long relationships with, I find that my personal attachment is more something which intensifies over time and it's less about how I orient myself towards them from their perspective and more how I orient myself based on my own personal attachments. 

I guess to an Fe-Ti type, this might look as if Fi-Te types are more clearly repelled because once you've made that judgement that you don't like the person it's very definite and difficult to change. I also think that Fi-Te in terms of the interpersonal also banters a lot more around this particular nature of Fi-Te, so it may perhaps also seem like we are disliking each other because we tend to play off each others' feelings like that. One of my favorite comments I receive from my ESFP friend is when she tells me "fuck you" or "I hate you" lol, just to exemplify.


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## monemi

Senshu_Ben_Gone said:


> Not even Fifty Shades? :tongue:


I don't get off on the idea of some asshole controlling me. I don't like that guy. I struggled through the first book and gave it away. I love reading smut, but it's hard to find the good stuff. So much is bodice rippers and I'm not looking to be dominated.


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## C3bBb

monemi said:


> I don't get off on the idea of some asshole controlling me. I don't like that guy. I struggled through the first book and gave it away. I love reading smut, but it's hard to find the good stuff. So much is bodice rippers and I'm not looking to be dominated.


Was joking anyway, I don't think any of my friends who read it actually enjoyed it for its intended purpose. That said, I did give a friend a raunchy novel entitled Passionate Nights or something for Christmas as a gag gift that I thought was much better done than 50 Shades...I think she likes it. :wink:


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## Despotic Nepotist

The reason for this is because INFPs have trouble conforming to so-called "social rules", whereas the ESTJ has a strong sense of orthodoxy and doesn't have trouble following the rules. INFJs are open-minded individuals, who, for the most part , tend to follow just rules, and this makes them a little more open to people who are their near opposite or complete opposite, such as the ESTP.


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## Chest

Anubis said:


> Why do we handle our "opposite" types so differently? INFP and ESTJ = same functions and ESTP and INFJ = same functions, but such different reactions.


I don't know many types who can handle ESTJs very well except for ENTPs maybe


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## Moss Icon

Off the top of my head, maybe it's Fi over Fe. Fi is deeply personal and values authenticity, so INFPs perhaps are more stubborn in being "who they are" than INFJs, who are more inclined to use their Fe to make connections and understand others. 

I really don't know too many ESTJs on a meaningful level. The only one I know of for sure is my dad's partner. She is a textbook ESTJ, and bizarrely my dad is an INFP like me. This person is _extremely _difficult: she's incredibly stubborn, self-important, selfish, and wields hypocrisy to levels so delusional that you wonder at times if she is actually sane. She always has some comment about people she sees on TV, on the street, meets briefly, friends, family; and usually she's putting them down or criticising them. She monopolises conversations, makes hugely unreasonable demands, and comes out with the most rude and insensitive remarks (example: when my half-brother - her son - was found to need glasses she remarked, "all your defects come from your father's side!") 

This person is a very unique example, though. This is an extremely unhealthy ESTJ in action, so I'm certainly not tarring all ESTJs with her brush. 

I can think of some possible ESTJs I've known other than her. We got along fine, though it was clear we were as different as people can be and would never be more than acquaintances.


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## perfectcircle

I get along fine in the short-term/shallow sense with STJs. I don't dislike them at all. In fact I find they're easier for me to communicate with than NTJs a lot of the time.


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## Kabosu

I think this was about forum trends it seemed like were going on based off posters of those types like 2 years ago.


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## 66393

the amount i resonate with OP right now . I had my I want to be an ESTP phase, but, I never really fit the role, no matter how hard i tried.


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## Bahburah

Their duals.

INFP:
Fi
Ne
Si
Te

ESTJ:
Te
Si
Ne
Fi

Their functions are reversed.

I picked up on this quickly since I know the ESFJ is the INTP's dual.


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## Coburn

I've never actually had problems with INFPs IRL.

Would I want to be an INFP? No. But I don't want to be any other type either, so I don't think there's anything special or significant about not wanting to be INFP. I just like the type I am.


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## Kynx

I can't say I agree with the op. I find that there's an underlying understanding or common ground with estj's. Although it might take some time to establish or recognize, but it's definitely there. I don't dislike them, even when I disagree with their viewpoints or actions, I still admire their intentions much of the time. I like how I know where I stand with them and I also like the fact that they can advise me on subjects or projects that I'm not exactly competent at. 
I've found that once the mutual understanding and respect is established, a bond is created between the estj and myself that's pretty solid.


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## MNiS

Looking back, whenever a friend dragged me out to church I'd notice that INFPs (EII) were invariably married to successful ESTJs (LSE) so no, I wouldn't agree that INFP and ESTJ despise each other. Quite the opposite in fact.

That's another thing. Churches in the US seem to be a haven for INFP and ESTJ. What's up with that?


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## Kabosu

I find many Christian modern beliefs to be delta heavy do that isn't too surprising to me.


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## MNiS

I think delta rational would be more precise, perhaps. Plus there are some churches that are definitely more fe oriented like Episcopalian churches. Gammas and Betas tend to congregate in their own organizations although some do mingle with Deltas and Alphas.


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## LadyRain

This is a very interesting thread. I'll have to keep my eyes open for this sort of thing here in the forums (because I don't type people in real life). Thanks for the pondering fodder


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