# Is Counterphobic 6 really a thing?



## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I do not consider CP 6 to be something that is really integral to the enneagram type 6 experience. A six is a six, whether or not they are a bitch ass punk or not. I mean it's like trying to divide up type 7 into those who are smug from those who are hedonistic, or 2s who are devas and 2s who are motherly. y'know.


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## AST (Oct 1, 2013)

You're right. Counterphobic 6 does not exist. They are clearly mistyped 8s.


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

It's a thing, it just has nothing to do with type 6.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

The type of behavior/defense mechanisms, etc attributed to CP6 does exist, yes. I personally am not convinced that it is specifically linked to or that it is integral to type 6. From my experience, it's more of a human thing that not necessarily anyone is immune to. 

On a side note, I think this forum puts far too much emphasis on the whole CP 6 thing. On the one hand it seems to have become a kind of "label" or "badge" that people wear with pride as some sort of mark of their "badassery". And on the other, there is a trend of labeling others as CP 6 as a means of provoking a certain reaction or just to create drama, for entertainment, perhaps. 

Well, with all due respect, I just don't fucking get it. Kind of misses the whole point of it all, if you ask me. *shrugs*


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> I do not consider CP 6 to be something that is really integral to the enneagram type 6 experience. A six is a six, whether or not they are a bitch ass punk or not.


and a 6 can manifest in COMPLETELY different ways depending on subtype, MBTI, wing etc, so it is important that these be explored for the sake of correctly identifying certain types (both our own and in others) and giving people the tools to deal with (often substantially) different variations on the same core fixation (many followers of Naranjo believe that knowing one's subtype is the most important factor of learning the Enneagram). To use an extreme example, can you seriously tell me that Mike Tyson (6w7 Sx/So) and Jennifer Aniston (6w7 Sp/Sx) are going to have even remotely similar paths to personal/spiritual growth? 



> I mean it's like trying to divide up type 7 into those who are smug from those who are hedonistic, or 2s who are devas and 2s who are motherly. y'know.


actually, they are divided up this way. all 9 types have a _countertype_ in which the dominant instinct and core fixation clash in some way, making the type prone to an "anti-passion" if you will. think of it as a game of "one of these things is not like the other". the problem is not so much that it's overemphasized in 6 as much as that it's under emphasized in the other eight types.

speaking of which....a few tidbits from Beatrice Chestnut's The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge should show you what I mean (for the record, I don't agree with 100% of the descriptions to follow. I believe the behavioral range is a _little_ more broad and that the passions and counter passions will both appear to some degree in each of the subtypes, but overall these descriptions are solid and nicely illustrate my point that such distinctions are both useful and necessary)


> *Sexual 1: "Zeal"*​Sexual 1s focus on perfecting others; they are more reformers than perfectionists. The only 1 who is explicitly angry, they act out of anger through their intense desire to improve others and get what they want. They feel entitled in the way a reformer or zealot feels entitled: they believe that they have a right to change society and get what they want because they have a higher understanding of the truth and the reasons behind “the right way to be.” The countertype of the 1s, they are more impulsive and outwardly angry; they go against the “counter-instinctive” tendency of the 1 to repress anger and impulses.





> *Self Preservation 2: "Privilege"​*Self Preservation 2s “seduce” like a child in the presence of grown-ups as a way of (unconsciously) inducing others to take care of them. Everyone likes children, and the Sp 2 adopts a youthful stance as a way of getting special treatment well beyond childhood. As the countertype, it’s less easy to see pride in this 2 because they are more fearful of and ambivalent about connecting with others. The title “Privilege” reflects this 2’s desire to be loved and prioritized just for being who they are, not for what they give to others. Related to the youthful stance, these 2s are playful, irresponsible and charming.





> *Self Preservation 3: "Security"​*The Self Preservation 3 has a sense of vanity for having no vanity. This 3 also wants to be admired by others, but avoids openly seeking recognition. Not just satisfied with looking good, the Sp 3 strives to BE good. They are determined to be a good person; to match the perfect model of how a person should be. Being the perfect model of quality implies virtue, and virtue implies a lack of vanity. Sp 3s seek a sense of security through being good, working hard and being effective and productive.





> *Self Preservation 4: "Tenacity"​*The Self Preservation 4 is long-suffering. As the countertype of the 4s, Sp 4s are stoic in the face of their inner pain and they don’t share it with others as much as the other two 4s. This is a person who learns to tolerate pain and to do without as a way of earning love. Instead of dwelling in envy, Sp 4s act out their envy by working hard to get what others have and they lack. More masochistic and less melodramatic, these Fours demand a lot of themselves, have a strong need to endure and have a passion for effort.





> *Sexual 5: "Confidence"​*Sexual 5s express avarice through a search for exemplars of absolute love. This is a 5 with a romantic streak. The name reflects their need to find a partner who fulfills an ideal of trust. The most emotionally sensitive of the 5s, they suffer more, resemble type 4 more and have more overt desires. They have a vibrant inner life that may be expressed through artistic creation but are still cut off from others in many ways.





> *Sexual 6: "Strength/Beauty​*Sexual 6s express fear by going against fear; by becoming strong and intimidating. Trusting themselves more than others, these 6s have the inner programming that when you are afraid, the best defense is a good offense. They take on a powerful stance both in what they do and how they look, as a way of holding the enemy at a distance. Their anxiety is allayed through skill and readiness in the face of an attack.





> *Social 7: "Sacrifice"​*As the countertype, Social 7s go against gluttony through conscientious efforts to be of service to others, Conscious of wanting to avoid exploiting others, they have a need to be good and pure and to sacrifice their own needs in supporting the needs of others. They have a passion for being seen as good for the sacrifice of their own desires. They express an ascetic ideal and make a virtue of getting by on little. They express idealism and enthusiasm as a way of making themselves feel active and valued in the world.





> *Social 8: "Solidarity"​*Social 8s express lust and aggression in the service of others. A social antisocial person, this is the countertype of the 8s, a helpful 8 who appears less aggressive and more loyal than the other two 8 subtypes. The name “Solidarity” emphasizes their tendency to offer help when people need protection.





> *Social 9: "Participation"​*Social 9s fuse with groups. They act out of laziness when connecting with their own inner life by working hard to be part of the different groups in their lives. Fun-loving, sociable and congenial characters, Social 9s can be workaholics, prioritizing the group’s needs above their own. This high level of activity makes them the countertype of the three 9 subtypes.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Necrophilous said:


> I do not consider CP 6 to be something that is really integral to the enneagram type 6 experience. A six is a six, whether or not they are a bitch ass punk or not. I mean it's like trying to divide up type 7 into those who are smug from those who are hedonistic, or 2s who are devas and 2s who are motherly. y'know.


This seems to be more of a set of assertions with no argument, information or facts to back it up. I know it's a trend among some people on this forum but think of it like this: 

If I write: 

Based on the enneagram literature [source], [source], [source] an 8 type appears to manifest with [trait], [trait], [trait] which are absent in many of the people typed as 8 on personality cafe. 

Then a discussion can be had. 

If I write: 

To me it seems like a lot of the 8s on this forum are mistyped, because they are punk-ass bitches. 

There is really no discussion to be had, unless you're an idealist like @Swordsman of Mana who actually tries to reason with you.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Scelerat said:


> This seems to be more of a set of assertions with no argument, information or facts to back it up. I know it's a trend among some people on this forum but think of it like this:
> 
> If I write:
> 
> ...


I honestly do not feel like quoting a bunch of sources from people who's take on a bunch of random traits have been assembled into a ball of cohesion by a bunch of people who, for the most part I find to be rather lacking anyways. Though you do bring up a good point, I was just trying to gauge out what people had to say about CP 6 in the first place anyways so that I could form a counter argument. Yet that yields no results if I put out nothing in the first place.

Anyways the reason as to why I believe the distinction between CP 6 and 6 is one that only has a rather intangible basis with each other is that they share the same trait of not really trusting anything. As @JSRS01 pointed out with his own theory on type 11, which is basically CP 6 with more of a fixation on finding others incompetent at a spiritual level (I can't trust anybody so I'll go do it myself! vs. existential doubt. Type 11 takes things at face value, 6 never really does). That and the fact the key-subtle differences between CP 6 and say the SX 6 character from Naranjo's description was the fact that the CP 6 is generally unaware of their "insecurity" to the point where it is difficult to actually say that they view themselves as being "insecure" in the first place. Contrast this with the SX 6 as Naranjo described, who is generally more aware of their own inner insecurity and even finds it somewhat baffling that people find them to be strong in the first place.

The internet consensus of what the CP 6 is, at fault of what type 6 really is. The lack of faith in the strength of the universe and the belief that there is no law, and that security is something that exists. Yet this delusion does not seem to be found particularly strongly in the CP 6 character, who for the most part takes things into their own hands and does seem to be all that aware of their own weaknesses or even the weaknesses of other people. This is not to say that people who relate to CP 6 cannot be an actual 6 though. It just seems like the CP 6 that have grown popular over the years have mutated into this sort of hyper-aggressive person who never doubts themselves in the first place. Even in Beatrice Chestnut's description, there is this element of trying to assess the true power that underlines supposed strength and weaknesses in the first place.

What I'm saying here is that the themes behind the internet consensus's thought of what the CP 6 is does not align with the themes of the actual type 6. There is truth in the fact that the 6 "staggers" more than the 8. That the CP 6 of internet lore lacks what Free Beer pointed out as existential anxiety.

I consider the true nature of all sixes to be counter-phobic in a way, and that the CP 6 is generally a more healthy person than the more cowardly 6.

If we are going to do the sub-type and "countertype" thing. I'd say that SO six is actually the true counter-type. Though I can't really come up for a reason now as to why.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> I consider the true nature of all sixes to be counter-phobic in a way, and that the CP 6 is generally a more healthy person than the more cowardly 6.


Hang on. Are you saying that CP6 is basically the "healthier" version of a cowardly 6? Or did what you just write fly in one fucking ear and out the other?

Please elaborate, I'm intrigued.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Kintsugi said:


> Hang on. Are you saying that CP6 is basically the "healthier" version of a cowardly 6? Or did what you just write fly in one fucking ear and out the other?
> 
> Please elaborate, I'm intrigued.


I'm saying that having a counterphobic attitude is better than not doing anything out of fear. It's best to be an idiot than to be a sheep is another way to look at it. Granted there is always the risk of losing something, but you'll always die if you just...sit there.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> I'm saying that having a counterphobic attitude is better than not doing anything out of fear. It's best to be an idiot than to be a sheep is another way to look at it. _*Granted there is always the risk of losing something, but you'll always die if you just...sit there.*_


Right. But this is just an opinion?

I feel like I'm getting something more out of what you previously said but I don't really know what it is exactly, or how to express it. I agree it's better to be an idiot than a sheep; however I will hold my hand up and say that I was a fucking sheep for the best part of my life, thus far. Until I decided it was time to grow a pair and took time to introspect and deal with a lot of my core "existential" issues. 

I've never been able to fully label/box myself as either phobic or CP. I just know that I'm always somewhere on the spectrum. I feel much healthier when I'm in "CP -mode" though. Whatever the fuck that is anyway.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Kintsugi said:


> Right. But this is just an opinion?


Yeah it probably doesn't have much of a place there, but it's just something I hear alot.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> Yeah it probably doesn't have much of a place there, but it's just something I hear alot.


Hear from who?

Btw, I'm not saying that it's invalid because it's an opinion. Just wanted you to expand and go a bit deeper, I guess.

lol, fuck me. I'm even turning myself on.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Kintsugi said:


> Hear from who?
> 
> Btw, I'm not saying that it's invalid because it's an opinion. Just wanted you to expand and go a bit deeper, I guess.
> 
> lol, fuck me. I'm even turning myself on.


I don't think I can go deeper outside of the obvious, "testing your hypothesis through peer-jury, evidence as well as it being consistent within itself." or some variation of that. It's basically Social Darwinism through action and though-forms instead of through policy.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> I don't think I can go deeper outside of the obvious, "testing your hypothesis through peer-jury, evidence as well as it being consistent within itself." or some variation of that. It's basically Social Darwinism through action and though-forms instead of through policy.


Fair enough.

Kind of the problem with all of this shit, really. And thus, I am slowly losing interest in it all.

Thanks for exciting me, momentarily.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Kintsugi said:


> Kind of the problem with all of this shit, really..


That feel.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> Right. But this is just an opinion?
> 
> I feel like I'm getting something more out of what you previously said but I don't really know what it is exactly, or how to express it. I agree it's better to be an idiot than a sheep; however I will hold my hand up and say that I was a fucking sheep for the best part of my life, thus far. Until I decided it was time to grow a pair and took time to introspect and deal with a lot of my core "existential" issues.
> 
> I've never been able to fully label/box myself as either phobic or CP. I just know that I'm always somewhere on the spectrum. I feel much healthier when I'm in "CP -mode" though. Whatever the fuck that is anyway.


Essentially it's just the idea that you can only get if you actually try to get it; that there's value in trying even if you fall short; that we feel more accomplished for daring to try even if we ultimately failed. The real value lies in the action because at least there's nothing left for us to regret to keep us wondering how life would have been like if we had actually gone out and tried to do whatever it was that we wanted to do but ultimately feared doing.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> That feel.


I think it's time for me to part ways. It isn't helping the existential shit, one bit.

How can you help a 6? Well, you can tell them to give up Enneagram, for starters.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> I think it's time for me to part ways. It isn't helping the existential shit, one bit.
> 
> How can you help a 6? Well, you can tell them to give up Enneagram, for starters.


How about some simple gut logic: It's all in your head?


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> Essentially it's just the idea that you can only get if you actually try to get it; that there's value in trying even if you fall short; that we feel more accomplished for daring to try even if we ultimately failed. The real value lies in the action because at least there's nothing left for us to regret to keep us wondering how life would have been like if we had actually gone out and tried to do whatever it was that we wanted to do but ultimately feared doing.


I completely agree.

But how the fuck do we make our opinions more objective, guys?!

Oh wait...

We can't. :sad:


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> How about some simple gut logic: It's all in your head?


If only it was as fucking easy as that, my friend.

Sometimes becoming more self-aware makes me feel like even more of a nutbag. Conversations with myself go something like:

Me: "It's all in your head, dude!"

Me: "I fucking know that, twat-bags!"

Me: "So what the fuck are we going to do about it?"

Me: "I dunno. How can I trust you, anyway?"

Me: "You're just being paranoid, bitch."

Me: "I know that!"

Both: "Arrrrrrrgggggghhhhhh....we'ere doomed!!!"


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't know a lot about Enneagram, but it was always my impression that Counterphobic 6 was supposed to be a label for a specific sort of fearless-demeanor defense mechanism. Like someone screaming, "I'm not afraid, STOP SAYING I AM!" in response to little more than their own internal judgments. In other words, a kind of overcompensation for handling their problems. 

So it is a bit weird to me if some people are wearing it like a badge, cause I thought the whole point was that it's describing an attitude that is inherently overcompensating, not reasonably overcoming. I don't know why you'd want to identify as someone who overcompensates.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding the intended meaning.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Essentially it's just the idea that you can only get if you actually try to get it; that there's value in trying even if you fall short; that we feel more accomplished for daring to try even if we ultimately failed. The real value lies in the action because at least there's nothing left for us to regret to keep us wondering how life would have been like if we had actually gone out and tried to do whatever it was that we wanted to do but ultimately feared doing.


Huh.



LostFavor said:


> So it is a bit weird to me if some people are wearing it like a badge, cause I thought the whole point was that it's describing an attitude that is inherently overcompensating, not reasonably overcoming. I don't know why you'd want to identify as someone who overcompensates.


Yeah. Well some might find that sexy, I guess.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

LostFavor said:


> I don't know a lot about Enneagram, but it was always my impression that Counterphobic 6 was supposed to be a label for a specific sort of fearless-demeanor defense mechanism. Like someone screaming, "I'm not afraid, STOP SAYING I AM!" in response to little more than their own internal judgments. In other words, a kind of overcompensation for handling their problems.
> 
> So it is a bit weird to me if some people are wearing it like a badge, cause I thought the whole point was that it's describing an attitude that is inherently overcompensating, not reasonably overcoming. I don't know why you'd want to identify as someone who overcompensates.
> 
> But maybe I'm misunderstanding the intended meaning.


Yeah. You have a point, too.

In my mind, I liken CP6 to the commedia dell'arte stock character, "Il Capitano." (Il Capitano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). My favorite description of him is, "like a peacock who has molted all but one of his tail feathers, but does not know it."
​


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

CP is based on the fight-flight division, essentially, obviously being the "fight" end of the spectrum. I think it's a worthwhile observation, but in my opinion it is probably overemphasized in terms of individuals being purely one or the other. Most 6s seem to incorporate both types of reaction and have an internal tipping point at which they move from flight to fight, depending on how offended and/or endangered they feel. In terms of health, it is more likely that a CP fight reaction will preserve the self in a truly dangerous scenario, but it also depletes resources and often destroys environment. The more one feels cornered with no escape or that they have been taken advantage of, the more one is likely to fight, as they care less about about causing damage. In most realistic life scenarios, without true bodily harm being endangered, a CP reaction is just as unhealthy as a phobic reaction. The most healthy thing for a 6 is to stay calm within themselves and be proactive, acting upon what they want, instead of reactive, feeling forced to respond.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> I do not consider CP 6 to be something that is really integral to the enneagram type 6 experience. A six is a six, whether or not they are a bitch ass punk or not. I mean it's like trying to divide up type 7 into those who are smug from those who are hedonistic, or 2s who are devas and 2s who are motherly. y'know.


Indeed, they clearly have the same fundamental problems as phobic 6s. Both build their life around fear. Seems like the ones challenging their fears are more likely extroverted tho, which would kinda make sense.

The difference between a type 6 and a type 8 also consist of multiple things like compliant vs assertive, head vs gut etc. which makes the mistype kinda unlikely, but ofc. possible.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

I was thinking about this today. I was trying to figure out what category I fall into.

It's just not that fucking simple.

I mean. I'm an Se-dom, conflict doesn't really bother me so much; so I guess, in person , I kind of look CP6? 

Intellectually and even emotionally (at the core), I feel that I'm more like what the phobic-6 descriptions say; but physically, I have no problem holding back and asserting myself. Most of the time I get called "intimating" or a "loose cannon" because of my physical confidence, presence, and unpredictability.

How do I reconcile this shit?

I fell like that maybe I'm just missing the whole point. Meh.


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> *How do I reconcile this shit?
> *


With this: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...izardry-fact-checking-thread.html#post6861081


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Kintsugi said:


> On a side note, I think this forum puts far too much emphasis on the whole CP 6 thing. On the one hand it seems to have become a kind of "label" or "badge" that people wear with pride as some sort of mark of their "badassery".


My favorite are the 6s who can deal with being a 6 only by labeling themselves as CP6. Because, you know, P6s are all spineless cowards; CP6s are the only ones who can deal with life.

Personally, while I do think CP is totally a thing, I think people hype it up too much. It's important mostly only to highlight the broad spectrum of type 6, but it's not a thing which should be focused on. 



Necrophilous said:


> I'm saying that having a counterphobic attitude is better than not doing anything out of fear. It's best to be an idiot than to be a sheep is another way to look at it. Granted there is always the risk of losing something, but you'll always die if you just...sit there.


...Srsly is this still a thing on PerC? That's incredibly disappointing. I thought everyone was smart enough to know better than to suggest P6 is nothing but a sheep who hides in a closet.

@_Cosmic Orgasm_, apparently we still have some work to do.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Blystone said:


> With this: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...izardry-fact-checking-thread.html#post6861081


This alone, huh?

I'm not convinced. 

Too much text. Short attention span. 

Too many variables.

Why the fuck do xNTJs buy into this shit, anyway. That's what I want to know.

I'll probably pay more attention to it when I've slept more and I'm not drunk. But cheers, anyway.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> My favorite are the 6s who can deal with being a 6 only by labeling themselves as CP6. Because, you know, P6s are all spineless cowards; CP6s are the only ones who can deal with life.
> 
> Personally, while I do think CP is totally a thing, I think people hype it up too much. It's important mostly only to highlight the broad spectrum of type 6, but it's not a thing which should be focused on.


Fuck labels. Yes, feel the wrath of my self-righteousness. ^_^

It's a spectrum.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Paradigm counterphobia is still a form of cowardice if one is going to be nitpicky about it.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> ...Srsly is this still a thing on PerC? That's incredibly disappointing. I thought everyone was smart enough to know better than to suggest P6 is nothing but a sheep who hides in a closet.


I explained that particularly horribly, but the thing is that actively exposing oneself to the world is pretty much the only way that you'll actually grow as a person. I do believe that a counter phobic attitude is generally healthier than not doing anything. Being afraid is basically just your internal logics working together, but you should still not let the fear consume you or anything.

I think this particular advice should be given out to 5s more than 6s anyways. lol. Teaching them to know when to let loose once in a while, and trust their instincts.

6s are pretty "counterphobic" anyways no matter what you look at any type description.

All of the head types have difficulties letting the "flow" enter into them, too preoccupied with not being stupid and many would rather just fake being skillful or knowledgeable instead of conceding that that they don't know that much, and to let themselves be knocked down a peg or too. That is what I'm talking about, more than just being unquestioning sheep.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

-Ephemeral- said:


> @_Paradigm_ counterphobia is still a form of cowardice if one is going to be nitpicky about it.


THANK YOU. 

I feel more empowered when I'm phobic anyway; it's like, "I'm feeling vulnerable bitches....I accept that....DO YOUR WORST!"


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kintsugi said:


> THANK YOU.
> 
> I feel more empowered when I'm phobic anyway; it's like, "I'm feeling vulnerable bitches....I accept that....DO YOUR WORST!"


lol. Anyway, in response to the OP, I think we get too focused on CP as an actual thing in itself so it becomes far removed from anything type 6 or what type 6 is about. I think the culprit for popularizing this originally is Naranjo? 

This is exactly why motivation is more important than behavior. A 6 is a 6 if they are falling prey to fear the way 6s fear; otherwise not a 6 no matter how phobic or CP they may come across. At least in my book. Behavior only means so much which is to say that in my world it doesn't mean that much at all. People make cognitive type overlap too much with enneagram motivations, though unwittingly so.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Necrophilous said:


> I explained that particularly horribly, but the thing is that actively exposing oneself to the world is pretty much the only way that you'll actually grow as a person. I do believe that a counter phobic attitude is generally healthier than not doing anything. Being afraid is basically just your internal logics working together, but you should still not let the fear consume you or anything.


Except it's not healthier, it's just a different way of coping. Cp is the gunman who goes in blazing, P is the stealthy spy. It's complete bias and misinformation to assume that 1) Cp6 is the only one who takes action, 2) Cp-related action is the only right course.

I've never identified as anything but P6, yet I've traveled tons, experienced much, and am quite forthright. From my (biased) perspective, CPs are often too loud and like a blunt weapon. I observe before I act; they act before thinking. They're also sometimes too harsh, and though I'm not particularly tactful myself, it's like the phrase "you'll catch more flies with honey."

So, yeah. Cp is not healthier and trying to claim such is just misleading.



> All of the head types have difficulties letting the "flow" enter into them, too preoccupied with not being stupid and many would rather just fake being skillful or knowledgeable instead of conceding that that they don't know that much, and to let themselves be knocked down a peg or too.


Well, this I agree with, a bit. I don't think it's limited to head types -- I've witnessed many others (like type 1 and 3 and 8) do it too. And I think 7 has less of a tendency to get upset over being wrong. But yeah, we can get stuck in our heads and forget actually applying ideas.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

-Ephemeral- said:


> lol. Anyway, in response to the OP, I think we get too focused on CP as an actual thing in itself so it becomes far removed from anything type 6 or what type 6 is about. I think the culprit for popularizing this originally is Naranjo?
> 
> This is exactly why motivation is more important than behavior. A 6 is a 6 if they are falling prey to fear the way 6s fear; otherwise not a 6 no matter how phobic or CP they may come across. At least in my book. Behavior only means so much which is to say that in my world it doesn't mean that much at all. People make cognitive type overlap too much with enneagram motivations, though unwittingly so.


Yeah, I agree.

Again, I agree. Motivation over behavior.

In which case, no matter how bad-ass I am, I am mostly likely a 6. (Although I can't confirm that yet. I need to introspect some more). 

But this still doesn't solve the whole tritype shit, though...

*confuzzled*


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> All of the head types have difficulties letting the "flow" enter into them, too preoccupied with not being stupid and many would rather just fake being skillful or knowledgeable instead of conceding that that they don't know that much, and to let themselves be knocked down a peg or too. That is what I'm talking about, more than just being unquestioning sheep.


True story. :sad:


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

The enneagram is not about solely the behavioral or the motivational attitude. (As if these things are actually dualistically apposed) rather it is basically about how delusional we are, and what the shape and manifestation of this delusion interferes in our lives. It's more like a set of unclear glasses that we set above our eyes, if only because it was the only way we get along with the world or maybe it's because we are innately attuned to whatever happened to us. Not that the etiology really even matters here, what is important is to simply toss those glasses away, and get a new shade of glasses that is more clear until we don't even have to rely on wearing glasses in the first place.

Like the type 1 and 3 might have the same desires and goals, but they will view it from a different standpoint.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Necrophilous said:


> The enneagram is not about solely the behavioral or the motivational attitude. (As if these things are actually dualistically apposed) rather it is basically about how delusional we are, and what the shape and manifestation of this delusion interferes in our lives. It's more like a set of unclear glasses that we set above our eyes, if only because it was the only way we get along with the world or maybe it's because we are innately attuned to whatever happened to us. Not that the etiology really even matters here, what is important is to simply toss those glasses away, and get a new shade of glasses that is more clear until we don't even have to rely on wearing glasses in the first place.
> 
> Like the type 1 and 3 might have the same desires and goals, but they will view it from a different standpoint.


Yeah, I agree.

But there's still so much circle-jerking. In confuses a simple old fuck like me.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> Except it's not healthier, it's just a different way of coping. Cp is the gunman who goes in blazing, P is the stealthy spy. It's complete bias and misinformation to assume that 1) Cp6 is the only one who takes action, 2) Cp-related action is the only right course.


I like the analogy; but I still relate to both. Which means the problem has not been solved, as far as I am concerned.



> I've never identified as anything but P6, yet I've traveled tons, experienced much, and am quite forthright. From my (biased) perspective, CPs are often too loud and like a blunt weapon. I observe before I act; they act before thinking. They're also sometimes too harsh, and though I'm not particularly tactful myself, it's like the phrase "you'll catch more flies with honey."
> 
> So, yeah. Cp is not healthier and trying to claim such is just misleading.


Okay.

But how can one distinguish between the two in oneself? Still seems like a spectrum, to me.

At the end of the day, we are still glorifying type. I'm not sure this is the point?


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