# Your Perception of Other Quadras and Vice-Versa



## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

**THESE ARE ALL GENERALIZATIONS BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. JUST A REMINDER**

Betas are a lot of fun, but too concerned with power and sometimes quite irrational. 

Gammas are cynical asshats.

Deltas are fun and interesting to converse with, but shallow, especially in the context of relationships. 



Betas like me unless I take a disliking to them

Gammas are baffled by me

Most of the time, I'm not entirely sure what Deltas think of me




Your turn.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

yellow is the color of a word


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

**THESE ARE ALL GENERALIZATIONS BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. JUST A REMINDER*
*
Alphas are FUN!!!Well, except ILE's. Not that they aren't "fun" just that in a social setting sometimes they can get a little touchy. But, they (ILE's) are great at explaining concepts!

Gammas are caring, usually materially well-off. Gamma NT's are more reserved/harder to get know. Gamma SF's are awesome!! If you need anything to get done, ask one of them!!!

Betas are a mixed bag. IEI's are funny. But sometimes they go into discussions that they have strong convictions about, but may be factually iffy. Also, they seem kind of nice, dreamy. LSI's are great for learning something new. IME, what they know, THEY KNOW. So, discussions are great, 'cause I always learn something from them. SLE, don't have much experience with them; they appear good at giving commands. And I will not discuss EIE's.

okay, the vice versa part

Betas probably think I am naive. I think I scare them with my morals sometimes.

Alphas, IDK, they usually like me at first, but long term interaction in a social setting can sometimes cause them to distance themselves from me. Individually however, we are great.

Gammas usually are attracted to me. I can get along with Gammas socially, we kind of feed off of each other, but I've only ever felt a deeper connection with SEE's. 


@_ThatOneWeirdGuy_ I love LII's! The following may not apply to all LII-EII relationships, but I know I'm always happy to see my LII brother. He is quiet and thoughtful, which I've always appreciated. I've gotten into different types of music genres/artists because of him, again which I appreciate. 😊 There is a stereotype that LII's are weird, but I find them to be actually one of the most "normal" types. Lol. Pluses: they aren't into conflict, usually well-dressed, reserved but friendly, have a unique sense of humor, organized.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Alpha
Tend to annoy the hell out of me for many reasons. One of them being that they are so damn unfocused in their thinking. It drives me up the walls. Then in addition to that, they always try to do this "buddy up" or "let's be friends" thing, and it also frustrates the hell out of me because frankly, I have zero interest to be friends with you nor do I have any interest to be your talking buddy just because you want a talking buddy. Go find someone else. I really can't pick a type from alpha quadra that annoys me more. Most of them tend to annoy me one way or another in the long run. I tend to at best be able to keep some auspicious relationship but anything closer than "I know who you are" just doesn't work. Too much innate conflict. 

I have no idea what alphas think of me. I somehow feel I am more annoyed by them than they are annoyed by me as their Fe just keeps propelling them in trying to bridge some form of relational distance at which point I just want them to fuck off. 

Beta
Beta is hit and miss. Usually miss. Their emotional drama is quite annoying and their aristocracy is annoying, and I feel they are emotionally shallow and their collectivist mindset creeps me out a little. I prefer LSIs and IEIs thus far based on what I've observed, but if IEI then better IEI-Ni. LSI are pretty cool from a theoretical perspective, SLEs are meh. Very hit and miss. I have yet to meet an EIE I really like. Their Fe and just overall attitude and way of being annoys me. 

No idea what betas think of me though I am quite sure I have managed to piss off quite a few EIEs and some IEI-Fe types on this forum. They creep me out. 

Gamma 
Gamma is special. I prefer the irrational types. The problem with gamma is the Fi, so when a conflict occurs that happens very easily because of not sharing ideals, goals, values or whatever, it kind of escalates into a "no u" attitude where the other assumes one should simply adhere to and live up to the other person's [ethical] standards. There is also a part where Fi just gets too much. 

No idea what other gammas think of me. I have quite a few friends so I suppose the mutually shared cognition helps a lot in bridging understanding and sharing a perspective concerning the world. One thing I find positive with gamma quadra is that I feel "understood" as in that it is easier to connect make myself making sense than it is with other quadras. I don't have much experience with the rational types, but ILIs and SEEs all seem to innately understand and where I am going with my thinking that is very pleasant because it means you don't get stuck trying to explain the same thing over and over, but you actually get somewhere you want. 

Delta
I don't have much experience if at all with delta. They can be a little boring I guess. I wish they could be a bit more "wild" sometimes. 

No idea what other deltas think of me though I tend to form friendlier relationships with EIIs.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Nothing is sacred.

Alphas seem either very calm and go with the flow, or just unmotivated to an obnoxious degree. While I appreciate how they can get their points across without being offensive, sometimes they have no respect or recognition of minor boundaries that I put in place for a reason and sometimes I find that their attempts to be at least kind if not just respectful to others aren't always very genuine. In trying to be as open as possible, as I've seen in many ESE I've encountered, they end up offending the living shit out of a whole lot of people. It's really funny. 

Betas are very captivating in a way that makes you want to listen to them and the things they have to say. In conflict, they often become too socially rigid and manipulative with this "you're either with us or against us" nonsense. I'm mature enough to make my own friend choices. Like alphas, they don't respect my boundaries and are often more forceful about it. Many betas have strong convictions, and that's an admirable quality to have in my opinion. I just don't like it when they try to push their convictions onto others.

Gammas are a very cool bunch on the whole, though the moral and social high horse thing does get old very quick. The one thing I really like about people from this quadra is that there is the implicit "don't fuck with my things and I won't mess with yours" that I seem to have with some of them. The excessively harsh members of this quadra wear me out mostly because their attitude seems to be a means to cover up glaringly obvious shortcomings and insecurities that they might have.

Deltas are pretty pragmatic and down to earth, which is useful in it's own right. However, like betas, they play too much "us vs them" in conflict. They can also be pretty manipulative in that regard, though they are more low-key about it. Like gammas they do know how to respect my boundaries, which makes them likeable. However I never really understood the emphasis on aesthetics over purpose or function with them, especially in LSE and SLI. It just seems very irrelevant.


Alphas think I'm too damn serious or find it hard to tell when I'm just playing around. They also don't like my tone in confrontation.
Betas think I'm not expressive enough and they hate it when I don't take sides with them on certain things.
Gammas either find me obnoxious or a great collaborator at times. Mixed bag.
Deltas think I'm too high strung, stressed out, and cutthroat. They also don't like how I approach them in general. Not sure why. The only one who hasn't reacted that way is my LSE mother.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

My personal views on the quadras by describing interaction with specific individuals... (I am leaning toward delta atm)

Alpha: Fun times, for the most part. I like how there is a sense of inclusion as opposed to boundaries (ie, my people, those other people) though the buddy-buddy sometimes throws me off because it feels fake. My experience is mostly with ESE's and SEI's. My main problem with them is that sometimes they need to do something and they just procrastinate endlessly. The other thing that frustrates me is how they make friends with everyone so I wonder how valuable individual friendships are to them.

My sister-in-law (ESE) tells me I'm super quiet but she respects my go-getter attitude or some such. My brother (SEI?) is always complaining that I was the favorite child growing up because I was the "high achiever" (which annoyed me because he acts as if I didn't put in any work, like it was just something that happened to me and didn't to him).

Beta: My best friend thinks she is IEI and I don't see any reason to think otherwise. We get along pretty well (obviously) but then she says things that to me are really mean-hearted (we're constantly joking and saying horrible things about each other but there's some things that will suddenly feel like she isn't joking) and she will laugh it off and say I'm being too serious. Sometimes she thinks too much. Looks and image are also very important to her and I find this rather shallow... I guess I don't think the drama of Beta more generally.

Gamma: I haven't met many irl other than my mother, ESI. We get along well. I think she tends to make assumptions about people too readily. She thinks I'm a bit lazy and overly bossy... eh that's about it.

Delta: My father is LSE, only example I can think of - we get along pretty well, have a similar sense of humor, we know how to just stay out of each other's way. Everything is planned and figured out, he usually has the house running like clockwork, which is great. I have no idea what his thoughts are about me because he really doesn't express almost any emotion whatsoever.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

HKitty said:


> Alphas are FUN!!!Well, except ILE's. Not that they aren't "fun" just that in a social setting sometimes they can get a little touchy. But, they (ILE's) are great at explaining concepts!


Touchy how?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ananael said:


> Gammas are a very cool bunch on the whole, though the moral and social high horse thing does get old very quick. The one thing I really like about people from this quadra is that there is the implicit "don't fuck with my things and I won't mess with yours" that I seem to have with some of them. The excessively harsh members of this quadra wear me out mostly because their attitude seems to be a means to cover up glaringly obvious shortcomings and insecurities that they might have.


Your reply left me with a small doubt. Did you notice that moral and social high horse with all gammas, or it was more notorious with the SFs? I wonder that, as I think that such ideas could be related to Fi in the ego block.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Blue Flare said:


> Your reply left me with a small doubt. Did you notice that moral and social high horse with all gammas, or it was more notorious with the SFs? I wonder that, as I think that such ideas could be related to Fi in the ego block.


I'd say moral high horse was more geared toward the SFs and social towards the NTs in that some seem to think they are above interacting with most people. My qualms are something more geared to the introverted gammas if anything (especially ILI-Ni and ESI-Fi since Fi overvaluation occurs in these types in some subtye systems), though an ILI-Ni that I'm closer to does not seem to be too guilty of either.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Ananael said:


> I'd say moral high horse was more geared toward the SFs and social towards the NTs in that some seem to think they are above interacting with most people. My qualms are something more geared to the introverted gammas if anything (especially ILI-Ni and ESI-Fi since Fi overvaluation occurs in these types in some subtye systems), though an ILI-Ni that I'm closer to does not seem to be too guilty of either.


That makes sense, and somehow confirms my own suspicions, as I think that one of my friends is ESI, and even if I get along with her, she tends to be too rigid with her moral ideas. Now, about that social high horse, I'm guilty as charged, but that's not because I have something against people in general, as it's more a thing of preserving resources for interacting with folks that I would have a higher chance to get along. I'm an introvert, so too much interaction would wear me out sooner or later.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Ananael said:


> Touchy how?


Well, this is more of what I have observed in ILE-Ti. In a group setting they like to instruct, but sometimes instead of relaxing and going with the flow of what others are doing, they continue with their agenda (whatever point they feel is important to get across), so it seems like they are almost trying to force others to understand. They can be quite tenacious in this aspect. After a while of doing this, they can get "touchy", argumentative, if no one seems to care or understand. I see that it's coming from a good place, they want to teach others, but I think it would be better to just to let it go sometimes. I've noticed that the lack of a friendly, positive atmosphere aggravates them even more. This part is true of Ne subtype as well. Also, if they have an opinion on something, sometimes they aren't interested much in what other people think, and can get irritated if someone contributes a differing perspective (this is more true with the Ne-subtype).

Just my observations, which I admit are limited and few.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Gammas are cynical asshats.


Why, thank you.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> Why, thank you.


Incorrect usage of comma


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm...I can only talk about individuals I personally know and have experience with and even if I may think a certain way about them others of the same quadra or same type may have a different impackt on me :\ so I don't see how I could properly answer this without sacraficing accuracy and sense.

One general thing I found about Gammas thou is that they are not light hearted at all and this has been overall my only observation.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Incorrect usage of comma


Really?










Let's see if I can think about the quadras as an actual thing and not a theoretical thing for a moment. Hmm, what is my perception of people from other quadras.

Alpha = Tries too hard to influence the mood into "pleasant". Either through joking around, the NTs, or trying to see to all your needs, the SFs. Can't you see I'd rather not have to pretend? Especially that your jokes are funny, or that your food is good. I don't care. Just go away if it bothers you that much that I'm not "having fun".

Beta = What the hell are you even doing Beta STs? What is the point of all that? Beta NFs are a different but similar story. Essentially, I think they have delusions of grandeur. Individually they are okay, just don't let them build a power base.

Delta = *shrug* The potato of the Quadras.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Elyasis said:


> Delta = *shrug* The potato of the Quadras.












XD this thread is like a weed in my garden lamo.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> Really?


No.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

> Delta = *shrug* The potato of the Quadras.


We are so good fried and slathered in ketchup...


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

HKitty said:


> We are so good fried and slathered in ketchup...


And good to eat before a night of heavy drinking~


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

HKitty said:


> Well, this is more of what I have observed in ILE-Ti. In a group setting they like to instruct, but sometimes instead of relaxing and going with the flow of what others are doing, they continue with their agenda (whatever point they feel is important to get across), so it seems like they are almost trying to force others to understand. They can be quite tenacious in this aspect. After a while of doing this, they can get "touchy", argumentative, if no one seems to care or understand. I see that it's coming from a good place, they want to teach others, but I think it would be better to just to let it go sometimes. I've noticed that the lack of a friendly, positive atmosphere aggravates them even more. This part is true of Ne subtype as well. Also, if they have an opinion on something, sometimes they aren't interested much in what other people think, and can get irritated if someone contributes a differing perspective (this is more true with the Ne-subtype).
> 
> Just my observations, which I admit are limited and few.


I agree. I'd say your observations are astute.

I'm not so sure if I'd use the word, 'touchy,' but I _think _I know what you mean. :wink: I'm fairly positive that it can _appear_ that way, at least. 

I'm ILE-Ne, but I'd say the same is true of me. 

'Forcing' others to understand, for me, is akin to explaining the same concept in a multitude of different ways, hoping that they will latch onto one of those ways. 

But, it has a tendency to annoy the more keen, such as the ILI, who roll their eyes and say, "Yeah, I get it. Shut up already. I got it the first 70 times, and I'm not interested. Drop it." 

But, I instinctively keep going, because... I really _don't _think they got it the way _I _got it.

I'm getting better with that, though. I think.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Word Dispenser said:


> I agree. I'd say your observations are astute.
> 
> I'm not so sure if I'd use the word, 'touchy,' but I _think _I know what you mean. :wink: I'm fairly positive that it can _appear_ that way, at least.
> 
> ...


The only times I get touchy are when people are not understanding what I mean because they're morons. Then I just want to hit them with a chair. Persuading others to understand is not something I usually have to put much effort into. One of my professors said that even though he frequently disagrees strongly with me, the manner in which I explain things gives him incentive to listen and see where I'm coming from.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Ananael said:


> The only times I get touchy are when people are not understanding what I mean because they're morons. Then I just want to hit them with a chair. Persuading others to understand is not something I usually have to put much effort into. One of my professors said that even though he frequently disagrees strongly with me, the manner in which I explain things gives him incentive to listen and see where I'm coming from.


It ultimately depends on the person I'm speaking with. I'm fairly sure I'm understood and speak clearly, despite being prone to being wordy. I've had similar situations with my professors.

But, I think... When it comes to a certain flavour of individual... 

Rather than 'forcing' people to understand, I try to 'force' them to _listen. _Sometimes they are more likely to ignore, and focus on what they want to hear, rather than what is actually said.

They will shut it out, despite all evidence of their perspective being skewed, and their own bias discolouring their intake.

And _then _I want to hit them with a chair. All while patiently laying out different ways of saying it, in the hopes that their tunnel-vision expands.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> their collectivist mindset creeps me out a little.


 Just speculatively, I hope this isn't a conflation - I think my views are more philosophical than psychological. Or are betas really actually largely collectivists in your experience? I would like to hear about that.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

I think I would summarise this into two parts.

I get along better with Beta and Alpha types who have a similar approach in my experience to action. I like to do things, man, or rather, I prefer things to happen (better if I can make someone else do it) and I have found that these two quadras, as far as they exist, are more inclined to actually get on and do things. However if you get a lot of them together with contrasting goals, that's a problem. Then you really have to fight. I would see this as a beta and an alpha in the front seat of a car arguing about where to go while the gammas just sit in the back rolling their eyes. Perhaps not a perfect analogy. I have never really liked gamma-esque group dynamics or preference for small groups: since I always have closer friends in a big group, the more people the better imo. 

I have a whole thing between Yes People and No People. I don't like No People. No People are people like doctors, economists, etc, people who's basic job is to say "ah, that can't be done/you can't do that/I won't do that." I like Yes People because they never stop dreaming about expanding their boundaries. I would classify these people as Chefs, Theoretical Physicists, etc. They don't say "no" they say "let's go!" 

Alpha - specifically I think trend towards self-centredness or pursuant of personal, rather than universal goals, but have some admirable qualities. 

Gamma - does not compute. I don't know what to make of people who are perpetually closed. if attempting to place restraints on my ideas, become an object placed in the way: if just making boring moral judgments, then only irritating. good in small numbers, or irregularly.

Delta - hard to have an opinion... i'm not scared of people ethically judging me or anything, but the main thing is that they seem to have low energy levels.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Just speculatively, I hope this isn't a conflation - I think my views are more philosophical than psychological. Or are betas really actually largely collectivists in your experience? I would like to hear about that.


Actually, you are one of the people I base this opinion on since you are the most vocal about it so I have a good idea of where you stand on the issue. It equally applies to all Fe types to a degree though. I find that they want to create clusters of "collectives" or large groups of people where I, as I already explained to you, experience as if everyone just become like everyone else and drown out the larger the group is. I find this kind of social interaction largely meaningless.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Actually, you are one of the people I base this opinion on since you are the most vocal about it so I have a good idea of where you stand on the issue. It equally applies to all Fe types to a degree though. I find that they want to create clusters of "collectives" or large groups of people where I, as I already explained to you, experience as if everyone just become like everyone else and drown out the larger the group is. I find this kind of social interaction largely meaningless.


 Ah, I would just be careful about that, because for me it's not even as much as a psychological thing as a political-philosophical one, BUT I would say that they're related - however you are right about the Fe group thing. Just out of interest, I don't want to rekindle an argument: what do you find meaningful that is lacking in large group associations?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Ah, I would just be careful about that, because for me it's not even as much as a psychological thing as a political-philosophical one, BUT I would say that they're related - however you are right about the Fe group thing. Just out of interest, I don't want to rekindle an argument: what do you find meaningful that is lacking in large group associations?


I don't see them as wholly separate, no. Your political leanings certainly highlight it philosophically, though it is also definitely true in the realms of socialization. 

As for your question, I feel like I miss out some personal sense of intimacy. The larger the group becomes, the more I feel removed from the actual individuals participating in it, and more I also notice that there becomes a focus on group events where everyone participates equally and it just doesn't fit my preferred way of socializing. As an example, this summer I was invited at a barbecue with some of my friends. Now, one of my friends is friends with an Fe base type, possibly ESE, and she was also invited one her friends. It quickly to me at least, spiraled out of control as she kept inviting more of her friends that in turn invited more of their friends until they were more of her friends present than my friends in total. Eventually we (the original group minus her and her friend) could just leave and they had their own little party at the end because they were so many it just didn't matter. 

She eventually forced everyone to participate in this group game she thought was funny where people would pretend to be an animal and would make some noise or other cue people could guess on. You know the deal. The kind of games people use at large social gatherings or at kindergarten "in order to get to know each other". I felt like literally dying inside because it just felt so extremely pointless to me. You couldn't win, there was no goal, there was no end-point to it. It just kept going on and on endlessly. It's kind of the same sentiments I have versus players who are so engrossed in Minecraft. I cannot play a game for the sake of infinity. I need an easily understood quantifiable goal such as defeating opponent(s), reaching the end of something, accumulate a a certain amounts of X that leads to victory and so forth. Not sit and guess what animal you could potentially be and then we switch forever and ever. It just wasn't funny and certainly didn't speak to my competitive edge. 

Three of us eventually left, being my friend (ExI, I lean EII), her boyfriend (no idea about type more than Te-valuing introvert) and myself. Interestingly, the LIE who is a part of our circle actually stayed and thought it was funny, but I think it's because he's also an extrovert and Fe isn't his PoLR and he was a bit drunk. 

And I've been at similar Fe-based or how to call it, events, and it frustrates me because I don't want us to dance with you for the sake of dancing or playing dumb games with no clearly delineate way how to win for the sake of socializing with you. I want to be able to hold a conversation between you and I, maybe 3-4 people. I don't mind observing/listening, but the more people are involved the less intimate it becomes and it just seems meaningless and pointless especially when we have to participate in these large group activities. At least if we will do a group activity, then play a _proper_ game with a _goal_ and with teams or focus on individual skill. 

To me, the biggest manageable groups I can deal with and I find meaningful is about 5-6. Above that and I just feel I become one person in a sea of many people and I could as well leave because my participation and presence in the group means nothing. There is no focus on personal value placed on me as a person nor can I just sit down and hold a meaningful conversation between you and I. Having an SLE cousin who sometimes invites me to her parties, I think I have a fairly good idea on the basis of being there too. They just like that you are there kind of, but they don't care about anything beyond that. I need something more personal than just being there. What frustrates me a bit further is how Fe types can be grateful that you just came even though it was a waste of time and completely meaningless? I see this behavior from Fe types on the forum too regarding the "thank" button. They may for example "thank" everyone who participates in thread simply for just participating in it, regardless of how meaningful the information they provided actually was. It's like they place no personal emphasis at all on the person, they only care about the emotional action. And it feels meaningless to me, because in group situations it makes me feel insignificant and unimportant. 

This for example occurred when I went to a party one of my classmates at university held, and while I always thought he was a nice guy at uni unbeknownst to me (and this was way before I even knew of the MBTI so I would guess some beta NF) he was a raging Fe ego and his party reflected that. I just sat there on my chair and they just wanted to dance to loud music. Likely betas over alphas. Another classmate was also present and he was as frustrated as I (possibly also Fe PoLR) for exactly the same reason. The music was too loud to hold a conversation and we didn't want to dance with them despite their persistence to keep inviting us because I wanted to have meaningful interaction by holding a conversation, not dancing mindlessly to loud music I don't even like.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> I don't see them as wholly separate, no. Your political leanings certainly highlight it philosophically, though it is also definitely true in the realms of socialization.
> 
> As for your question, I feel like I miss out some personal sense of intimacy. The larger the group becomes, the more I feel removed from the actual individuals participating in it, and more I also notice that there becomes a focus on group events where everyone participates equally and it just doesn't fit my preferred way of socializing. As an example, this summer I was invited at a barbecue with some of my friends. Now, one of my friends is friends with an Fe base type, possibly ESE, and she was also invited one her friends. It quickly to me at least, spiraled out of control as she kept inviting more of her friends that in turn invited more of their friends until they were more of her friends present than my friends in total. Eventually we (the original group minus her and her friend) could just leave and they had their own little party at the end because they were so many it just didn't matter.
> 
> ...


 I see, it makes sense. I especially empathise on the animal game thing, I think there is a difference between expansive participation and being dumb, however. That is just being dumb. No doubt she thought it would be fun for everyone but I think that's the kind of assumption one can't make. Anyway, I did legitimately find that interesting to read and understand, so, I will thank it LOL


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I see, it makes sense. I especially empathise on the animal game thing, I think there is a difference between expansive participation and being dumb, however. That is just being dumb. No doubt she thought it would be fun for everyone but I think that's the kind of assumption one can't make. Anyway, I did legitimately find that interesting to read and understand, so, I will thank it LOL


That's why I think she is an ESE over EIE because I think that's something alpha may enjoy more over beta. It lacked the competitive edge as I mentioned, suggesting a lack of Se preference in the activity she suggested. But aside that yes, she's also quite dumb and even if she wasn't an Fe type, I am not sure I would hang out with her for that reason alone because we share almost nothing together. 

Also, as for Fe types using the thanks button, I see that more commonly in ego, especially base types, over other types. Not sure why exactly it seems more prominent in base types. So I don't mean every Fe type does this lol, just that it's an uncanny behavior I have observed from them that actually exemplifies the way Fe operates especially when situated in ego block, trying to create this group atmosphere or whatever by making people feel involved into a sense of social collective even _if_ it is on the internet and in one thread. 

In contrast, I can be a bit anal that way that I may refuse to thank someone's post even if I find the information informative because I don't like the person. I tend to thank people based on the quality of information they provide though, if I find it personally interesting/meaningful or not.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

About the issue of being on large groups, I also feel consumed by them, thing that I don't like at all. I went to two parties at my university, but after that I never participated on them, as the environment is too noisy and the music was that Reggaeton crap, plus I found rather pathetic to see some drunk classmates, to the point that they couldn't stand anymore, or they went to the bathroom to vomit.

So, when I'm invited to parties, I avoid them like the pest, as I have nothing to do there. I can't talk with anyone because the music is too loud, I don't care about dancing with some random people that I don't know, and I hate when my aunt or my cousins try to force me to stay more hours there, as I'm uncomfortable on such places with too many people around. Even if they're happy to see me there, I'm dead inside, as I think that I'm wasting my time observing folks doing some stupid actions.

So, I prefer small groups, as it's easier to interact, and I only invite people that have some affinity with me, as there is a better chance of talking about things that I like.


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## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

Beta immersed in a Delta group recently. Such a different dynamic.
They exchange lots of stories. Talk about their lives. It feels down-to-earth, kind of sentimental...low energy? Muted?
Maybe that's a better word.
It's a little serious for me. I think it's a party if everyone is laughing, yelling things, doing WHATEVER and saying WHATEVER. Deltas have a lot of rules about that. There's this give and take that's hard for me to understand.
Also they seem to like doing 1 or 2 things at a time. Not more than that. When I invite them over, I leave the radio on (comfortable level, we can still talk) and when the more assertive Delta guy shows up, he immediately turns it off. Every time. I have asked him about his music preferences before and he doesn't have a problem with mine.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Also, as for Fe types using the thanks button, I see that more commonly in ego, especially base types, over other types. Not sure why exactly it seems more prominent in base types. So I don't mean every Fe type does this lol, just that it's an uncanny behavior I have observed from them that actually exemplifies the way Fe operates especially when situated in ego block, trying to create this group atmosphere or whatever by making people feel involved into a sense of social collective even _if_ it is on the internet and in one thread.


Oh, so _that's _why they do it. 

Hmm, I agree that smaller groups are preferable. The advantage to a bigger group would be that there's more variety and a bigger chance of finding someone I can mesh with, though (but now I'm thinking about school or something rather than a party. I haven't been to a lot of parties, so).

As for the topic at hand, I'm not sure if I know a large enough selection from each quadra to say.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I think I would summarise this into two parts.
> 
> I get along better with Beta and Alpha types who have a similar approach in my experience to action. I like to do things, man, or rather, I prefer things to happen (better if I can make someone else do it) and I have found that these two quadras, as far as they exist, are more inclined to actually get on and do things. However if you get a lot of them together with contrasting goals, that's a problem. Then you really have to fight. I would see this as a beta and an alpha in the front seat of a car arguing about where to go while the gammas just sit in the back rolling their eyes. Perhaps not a perfect analogy. I have never really liked gamma-esque group dynamics or preference for small groups: since I always have closer friends in a big group, the more people the better imo.
> 
> ...


Off-topic, by doctors are "no" people because they tend to want to make you better rather than kill you and because of statist intervention in our society's healthcare system


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> That's why I think she is an ESE over EIE because I think that's something alpha may enjoy more over beta. It lacked the competitive edge as I mentioned, suggesting a lack of Se preference in the activity she suggested. But aside that yes, she's also quite dumb and even if she wasn't an Fe type, I am not sure I would hang out with her for that reason alone because we share almost nothing together.
> 
> Also, as for Fe types using the thanks button, I see that more commonly in ego, especially base types, over other types. Not sure why exactly it seems more prominent in base types. So I don't mean every Fe type does this lol, just that it's an uncanny behavior I have observed from them that actually exemplifies the way Fe operates especially when situated in ego block, trying to create this group atmosphere or whatever by making people feel involved into a sense of social collective even _if_ it is on the internet and in one thread.
> 
> In contrast, I can be a bit anal that way that I may refuse to thank someone's post even if I find the information informative because I don't like the person. I tend to thank people based on the quality of information they provide though, if I find it personally interesting/meaningful or not.


 I thought about this some more.

It was because I actually agreed with you. Or did I? What you said resonated with me until I thought about the disparity between two things: PURPOSE and MEANING. 

I am not really concerned about meaning. Meaning is something I add to my life via experience and generally speaking I don't go out searching for meaningful experiences, they come to me usually. So I don't go out to a party looking for meaning, I don't go round to my best friends house looking for meaning even. I go for purpose: if purpose is fulfilled, mission accomplished.

However, any activity that ultimately lacks purpose is completely pointless imo and is just detestable, a waste of time - and you can see how that fits with ESE style "every1 must have fun now!!!!1" or some kind of gamma "I want to discuss meaning." I enjoy both of those, fun things and discussing philosophy and meaning etc, but they have to have some kind of obvious purpose or I feel like I'm wasting my time. 

So that's for me the number one thing: defining purpose and achieving it, it makes me feel good. Sometimes purpose would be to maximise fun, in which I'd side with Alphas (in this strict scenario, obviously it's not always like that) and sometimes purpose is to discuss serious topic, in which case I would side with Gammas. However I am naturally obtuse and enjoy arguing just to see if I can win, although I also enjoy philosophy for it's own sake. (I know that meaning!=philosophy but it's a useful thing.)

Some examples - one time all my friends went out to eat sushi, it was like group of 14 people including me. I HATE sushi. No really, words don't describe. But I don't want to stay at home because when they come back they'll all be talking about that event for ages and I will miss out, so I went, but when they all went to the sushi restaurant I just crossed the road and ate on my own. What I did there had some purpose, no meaning, and was group interaction _except_ for the 30 minutes of the whole event that was the actual purpose of everyone else going to the event, if that makes sense.

Another example where I become "weird" - actually, just in my alcoholic phase, so I don't know, we all went to the bar, maybe 9 or 10 of us, an everyone was sitting in one area drinking and talking about movies and what would happen if a lizard mated with a cat, stuff I am generally not interested in, so I just sat separately from them and drank on my own. The conversation had "meaning" in the sense it was people discussing things that they find meaningful to them, or at the least interesting - so not totally vacuous - but it had absolutely no direction or purpose, so I went off on my own to fulfill my objective (read: get wasted) and to think about stuff and figure things out.

I couldn't add deltas to this because I didn't think about it, but for me it definitely seems something like: Gamma wants meaning, Beta (or just me? or just SE, even?) wants purpose, Alpha wants emotion - (then, so does beta, but I would say emotion as a result or method of purpose) and Delta, idk. Definition, maybe?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Off-topic, by doctors are "no" people because they tend to want to make you better rather than kill you and because of statist intervention in our society's healthcare system


 Doctors give you lists of things you can't do, ah stop smoking, don't drink so much, etc, Surgeons on the other hand are yes people because they see a problem and go to it and fix it - and as for the healthcare thing I think it's a bit much to start proselytising about it on this thread.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I strongly dislike groups. I feel like my voice gets drowned out as other people are talking and I end up being the silent one. Furthermore, group conversations tend to feel kind of pointless to me because I feel like there's no opportunity to get close to anyone. These kinds of conversations feel like just talking for the sake of talking, so I get nothing out of them. Then again, even one-on-one conversations can sometimes feel that way to me. 

Is liking groups really related to Fe? I would have thought it would be more related to extraversion and perhaps the social variant. o.o


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I thought about this some more.
> 
> It was because I actually agreed with you. Or did I? What you said resonated with me until I thought about the disparity between two things: PURPOSE and MEANING.
> 
> ...


Hm, I could also see how this could be a result of Reinin for you? What you initially describe seems strategic to me. I should ask my SEE friend what she thinks about your post for comparison sharing base. I kind of get what you mean but I couldn't do it myself. I wouldn't go to a party just to get wasted. That again doesn't seem meaningful to me, though it certainly could be a physically gratifying experience which I feel you are really trying to describe. The thing is that when I go out to do something and seek interaction with the outside world I don't do it on the based on physical experience usually. It's extremely rare that I do. So what I do is looking for another experience entirely. I can't put that into words, but it's certainly derived based on meaning in some way. What meaning is though, I don't know, except it's not tied to physical experience. I mean, I'm inclined to say it relates to Ni in some way, getting Ni experience, but what that is I don't know either as I have never been able to put those impressions and experiences into words. They just feel that, meaningful somehow. Very powerful and evocative.

As for your sushi example, I just wouldn't go, though those kinds of experiences are issues my SEE friend is concerned with too. She would be stressed out for similar reasons having people talk about something she potentially missed out, but I think she might just order another dish while there instead of eating sushi. I don't know. Anyway to update, yes, she relates strongly to your sushi example and I do think that could be tied with Se and type 6 and/or social instinct? I don't know. I am not very concerned about these things honestly. If people want to talk about how fantastic X is that I missed out, I'll just do something else. If I didn't want to involve myself in that event originally I have no interest hearing you talk about it either. 

Anyway, she's expressing now that she is more inclined to look for meaning than purpose. Wrote this to me: 


> meaning is important to me and i can easily discard experiences if i feel at the start they aren't going to give me that meaning so sometimes i can reject an experience because i think it may not hold much meaning even if it might, and i just haven't seen it


So maybe there is something to what you are saying about quadras, not sure. Though I would think delta at least would look for what's practical or perhaps convenient.



Silveresque said:


> I strongly dislike groups. I feel like my voice gets drowned out as other people are talking and I end up being the silent one. Furthermore, group conversations tend to feel kind of pointless to me because I feel like there's no opportunity to get close to anyone. These kinds of conversations feel like just talking for the sake of talking, so I get nothing out of them. Then again, even one-on-one conversations can sometimes feel that way to me.
> 
> Is liking groups really related to Fe? I would have thought it would be more related to extraversion and perhaps the social variant. o.o


No. What matters is how the group is formed, what activities dominate the group and how interaction occurs within the group.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Doctors give you lists of things you can't do, ah stop smoking, don't drink so much, etc, Surgeons on the other hand are yes people because they see a problem and go to it and fix it - and as for the healthcare thing I think it's a bit much to start proselytising about it on this thread.


Doctors recommend those things because it is in the best interest of your health. That's their job; it's not like they force you to not smoke or not drink. You could say doctors are "yes" people. It"s a matter of perception. They see a problem, your smoking/drinking and try to fix it by persuading you to stop these actions yourself, because that's the only thing they really can do.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Hm, I could also see how this could be a result of Reinin for you? What you initially describe seems strategic to me. I should ask my SEE friend what she thinks about your post for comparison sharing base. I kind of get what you mean but I couldn't do it myself. I wouldn't go to a party just to get wasted. That again doesn't seem meaningful to me, though it certainly could be a physically gratifying experience which I feel you are really trying to describe. The thing is that when I go out to do something and seek interaction with the outside world I don't do it on the based on physical experience usually. It's extremely rare that I do. So what I do is looking for another experience entirely. I can't put that into words, but it's certainly derived based on meaning in some way. What meaning is though, I don't know, except it's not tied to physical experience. I mean, I'm inclined to say it relates to Ni in some way, getting Ni experience, but what that is I don't know either as I have never been able to put those impressions and experiences into words. They just feel that, meaningful somehow. Very powerful and evocative.


 Well, here's the thing - sometimes my purposes might have meaning, and sometimes they might not. I might be like right, Im just going to go out and drink because I haven't for ages - and the thing is that if I settle on that purpose, I get really jittery if I don't fulfill it. So even if I do something with an intent purpose, if it later evolves into a different purpose, then I am upset. That's why I try to influence and control my environment, I think, partially: because if people are deciding on changing a purpose to one I don't like, or try to de-purpose an activity, then that's REALLY bad for me.

So I wouldn't say purpose is always physical pleasure, hey, it can be anything. And yeah I just realised it sounds EXTREMELY result-strategic. If at any point you can put what your experience is into words, I would actually like to read that.



ephemereality said:


> As for your sushi example, I just wouldn't go, though those kinds of experiences are issues my SEE friend is concerned with too. She would be stressed out for similar reasons having people talk about something she potentially missed out, but I think she might just order another dish while there instead of eating sushi. I don't know.


 It's funny - I could have done that. I didn't as a matter of principle, lol.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> It"s a matter of perception.


 Yes, that's my perception. As an extra to this - there is a difference between fixing the persons behaviour and fixing the problem.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Yes, that's my perception. As an extra to this - there is a difference between fixing the persons behaviour and fixing the problem.


Is it not synonymous when the person's behavior is the problem, as it so often is?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Is it not synonymous when the person's behavior is the problem, as it so often is?


 I mean, I'm not disputing the necessity of doctors or their job - I'm just saying I have no interest in things which are predicated around telling people what can't be done. You need those types of people in society, as a fact, but that doesn't mean I have to celebrate or enjoy it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Well, here's the thing - sometimes my purposes might have meaning, and sometimes they might not. I might be like right, Im just going to go out and drink because I haven't for ages - and the thing is that if I settle on that purpose, I get really jittery if I don't fulfill it. So even if I do something with an intent purpose, if it later evolves into a different purpose, then I am upset. That's why I try to influence and control my environment, I think, partially: because if people are deciding on changing a purpose to one I don't like, or try to de-purpose an activity, then that's REALLY bad for me.
> 
> So I wouldn't say purpose is always physical pleasure, hey, it can be anything. And yeah I just realised it sounds EXTREMELY result-strategic. If at any point you can put what your experience is into words, I would actually like to read that.


Yes, it does. Which is why I'd be interested to hear how other betas think about what you just describe for that reason too. I wonder if this "meaning" has to do with being involved in a process since this is also important to my SEE friend. Reading over her quote it does seem to her that meaning has to do with being able to involve oneself into a process. Just getting wasted is very detached and fits result well in this regard. I care more about what I do there than the result of it. If I happened to get wasted, fine (though unlikely, I try to avoid getting overly drunk in general), but I don't think I have any particular goal when I go to a party for example, and if I do they are very vague and loose though I admit I don't feel comfortable setting out goals before I do anything. I feel they are often steering me in directions that just aren't long-term desirable because what is actually occurring suggests a completely different outcome so instead they just end up frustrating me and I definitely don't like regretting decisions because I made them based on preliminary information that turned out to be false. This is also part why I don't like people telling me what to do or asking me for things I don't know yet. I cannot provide information when there is none to give or act on something I don't know what it is. So instead what matters is what I _do _to get to the finish, rather than to the finish itself. 

In this sense yes, I see how I'm similar to my friend in what we seek in interaction with the outside world and elsewhere where meaning is derived from being involved in a process (and man can be be singularly working on one thing lol) rather than deriving enjoyment from the outcome. She's kind of voicing what I did too in that the world is seen as slightly more changeable on spot so it can lead to many different directions. So I think the strategic aspect for her as opposed to tactical for me is that she does set out goals, but it's the process and how one reaches that goal that matters. 

It kind of goes back to what I wrote about Fe socialization as well and I obviously can't speak for other people of my quadra, but when I think about it does seem rather process/tactical to me, especially my complaint about the ESE and her idea of creating social inclusion. 



> It's funny - I could have done that. I didn't as a matter of principle, lol.


lol, I am not even sure I would do it as a matter of principle though it depends on the people who invited me. If they have a goal of eating a dish I do not like, they have to suit themselves for naturally excluding me instead of asking for my opinion of where to eat first. Though if they turned out to be around 10 people I would likely decline anyway because the group is too large to be fully comfortable to me.

As for Ni, in terms of cognition and theory the most lucid and accurate thing I ever managed to write was this when I began writing on my ILI description:


* *




White Intuition - Ni
ILIs operate with Ni base, making them naturally attuned to detecting hidden trends, meanings and patterns in the world around them. With intuition being introverted, the ILI is capable of reviewing long-term patterns from the past and making predictions into the present and future. This is because Ni operates similarly to Si, in that Ni needs to build models of the world by reviewing data over longer time periods. This differs to Ne base found in ILEs and IEEs who are attuned to possibilities in the present.

Introverted intuition could be best described as finding purpose and meaning beyond what can be immediately experienced that links to greater universal but fundamental truths of how the world functions. Someone with base Ni would for instance look at a clock but what they see and experience is not the clock itself but how the clock is representative of the concept of time. Further examination of the clock and the concept of time could lead to the search for greater and deeper universal truths such as how time controls the concepts of life and death and the apparent cyclical nature of the universe itself.

Ni being a perceptive function allows for information to be stored, reviewed and distilled over time into grander, universal concepts. It is this distillation process of information that allows the ILI to make predictions into the future, and it is this distillation that associates Ni with time. By time one ought to not confuse Ni with the concept of time itself either as a standard of measurement or how we understand change and movement in the physical world, but by how Ni detects and connects to universal patterns in the sense-world. It is therefore more accurate to say that Ni is timeless -- it exists outside the detected space-time continuum. It is thus this ethereal existence that allows the Ni base type to connect to time, and one can argue that Ni is capable of seeing through time itself due to its ability to detect universal concepts and patterns that are true regardless of context specifics. An example of such pattern is that one must first be born in order to be considered a living being. 

It is not always easy or possible for the Ni base type to express his or her conceptual understandings of the world due to Ni’s introverted nature. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, introverts have a greater difficulty in general to communicate with the external world due to the how their information metabolism operates. Communication with the external world relies on the acceptance of general principles. These general principles are different to the universal concepts Ni is attuned to, and expression of the universal requires the ILI to find matching external general and logical principles in order to convey the Ni visions properly.

Secondly, being of the IP temperament, the ILI tends to prefer observation over judgement. This is due to the nature of irrationality itself leading the ILI to mostly being attuned to perception data. Sorting through this data requires the active use of a judgement function, making it sometimes seem as if the ILI has troubles coming to conclusions or making decisions. Because Ni operates on detecting patterns over longer time-periods, it is possible for the ILI to find it difficult to sometimes come to definitive conclusions about the state of the world. The ILI may experience a sense of uncertainty in trusting his or her own judgements, feeling that unless a definite pattern has been formed, it is very difficult if nigh impossible to tell the true outcome of things. This could to the outsider look like unnecessary passive observation and as if the ILI does not fully know what it is he or she wants or desires and an extroverted judgement type might even experience the ILI as aimless or without a definite goal. To the eyes of the outsider, it is thus easy to mistake the ILI as a recluse who tends to drift through the world without any apparent purpose or larger life goal, predominantly defined by his or her inertia and inability to create action in the present moment even though the ILI deep down seeks a way to engage with the world in an active, rather than passive, manner.

However, to the ILI, such goals and purposes are impossible to attain without first feeling that he or she fully knows and understands what is to come due to the ILI always being guided by his or her Ni visions. Instead, decisions of importance tend to coalesce over time, resulting in a drive or move that is experienced as inevitable. As such the true nature of the irrational temperament can be observed as outsiders might wonder why the sudden movement or need for action that seems to come out of nowhere, being unaware that this spur of action has in fact been a long on-going, internal process for the ILI.

Thirdly, leading with introverted intuition means complete psychological rejection of the sense-world. All energy is focused inward, constantly distilling whatever vision the Ni base type happened to be interested in at any given moment. Intuition, working by detecting archetypal hidden meanings, is naturally difficult to explain or convey because it does not work with what is tangible, concrete and can be directly observed or experienced. This might lead to the impression that ILIs predominantly “live in their own heads” in that not only do they seem to lack interest in the world around them, but the esoteric nature of intuition might be entirely lost upon those who lack this natural ability to connect and detect hidden meanings and patterns in the sense-world. The end result might be that the Ni base type is experienced as unrealistic, unpragmatic or simply not seen as making much sense in conversation. It is therefore easy to see why the Ni base type requires the use of an extroverted judging function to be able to fully express and realize their visions in the present world.




The actual experiental sensation of Ni is a trickier pony though. I described it before as it's akin to meeting god because that's how it feels. I can experience whatever sensory and just get a very strong archetype impressions that feel, for the lack of better words, meaningful, extremely so. As an example (though I have no clue if this will generate the same sensations as it does for me):






This entire OP is an Ni fest for me. I honestly wish I could vocalize it better because it's definitely an experience I wish I could share in some way because it feels so amazing. With this OP in particular, if I try, I just get ideas concerning faith and god salvation and redemption. They're ideas/images/concepts that just generate in my head/I get impressions of. 

I've come to think that either this is something one knows what it is from experience or one doesn't and I cannot always put it in these clearly tangible ways (it could also be that this particular anime OP plays off on this a little concerning the main themes it tries to deal with in the show indeed concerning god, the meaning of life and salvation/redemption). I can give more examples if you want because I tend to stock up on them since I like to revisit these (oh so constructivist me).


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

I just want to jump in on what *Diphenhydramine* and *ephemereality* have been discussing. Good stuff. Especially Diphenhydramine, you've helped me a lot to understand ESTp's. 

Okay.
If Beta is purpose and Gamma is meaning, then I'm going to guess that Delta is connecting.

Connecting with a group, with an individual, with nature, etc.


If I can connect with someone, that to me is more important than having purpose. Or, looked at another way, _other people_ give me a purpose. (Probably more of an Delta NF thing).


Meaning is something I constantly search for, but this is done mostly in private, or with 1 other person who I know shares some similar views. In a group setting, unless it is _specifically_ dedicated to meaning and analysis, then I would rather do the Alpha-type activities both of you have mentioned. 


Why? 


Because it is fun!! And who doesn't like fun, am I right?? 😆


Being silly or goofy (Ne) I find, lets me connect with people superficially, and this allows me to “manage” more people, if you will. I may not go deep, but I get enough of everyone that I start to see where more intimate conversations could go if I chose to engage a person or two from the group. But more importantly, I begin to see their interests, talents, aspirations, etc., without being burdened by their whole life story* or other information which would prevent me from seeing (only) what is positive in them, and what they could achieve. I become sort of an encourager and sympathizer when socializing, especially in a group setting. 


Lizard mating with a cat. That's sounds like something I would say. And it has no meaning or purpose beyond, OMG LOL!!1! WouULDn'T That BE so Weird?? When I socialize with others my “agenda” is just to socialize with them. If that means discussing a possible lizard-cat mating and how the lizardcat offspring would take over the world and then build a rocketship that would fail and crash back onto Earth thus killing all of them, so be it. I got to hang out with some cool people, possibly meet some new ones, and make a connection with them (thank you lizardcat). Also, this is probably related to Ne-Si, not much concern about the future, living for the moment, etc.


*Life story thing. Usually me close to tears, if not in tears, because I can feel what it was like for the person to go through traumatic and painful events. This is extremely draining, emotionally and often times physically. So while I do care about people, sometimes, and especially when socializing, I just want to have fun, and maintain a positive, welcoming attitude. So silly superficiality is is.


Alpha – fun? Inventiveness? Community? idk


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

HKitty said:


> Okay.
> If Beta is purpose and Gamma is meaning, then I'm going to guess that Delta is connecting.
> 
> Connecting with a group, with an individual, with nature, etc.


I was trying to figure out what I look for... I initially thought comfort, practicality, and I thought, yes, connection makes some sense too. I think putting it all together I would say "familiarity."

I enjoy sharing my experiences and my opinions with others; I tend to do this exclusively with people I know well and it's one of those things I enjoy... Why do people do the things they do? What are their past experiences and how did it coalesce into the person they are today? How can I better understand their views on life and how can they understand mine? I like taking in that sort of information but I find it impossible to do without that sense of familiarity with the others.



> Lizard mating with a cat. That's sounds like something I would say. And it has no meaning or purpose beyond, OMG LOL!!1! WouULDn'T That BE so Weird?? When I socialize with others my “agenda” is just to socialize with them. If that means discussing a possible lizard-cat mating and how the lizardcat offspring would take over the world and then build a rocketship that would fail and crash back onto Earth thus killing all of them, so be it. I got to hang out with some cool people, possibly meet some new ones, and make a connection with them (thank you lizardcat). Also, this is probably related to Ne-Si, not much concern about the future, living for the moment, etc.


Eek, I admit, lizard mating with a cat isn't really something I find interesting or that I would bring up. However, I've been known to say/do some really weird stuff. I must have overdone SOMETHING this time I started typing up random letters/rants and sticking them in the campus mailbox without an address... my friends thought it was hilarious. Or the time I stuck straws up my nose in a restaurant...



> Alpha – fun? Inventiveness? Community? idk


I think community makes sense; it gives off that Si/Ne vibe, to me, while also putting it together with extraverted ethics.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I think I could get into the lizard/cat-conversation, if only because the results (if it was even possible) would have some potential for cuteness (Toothless :3)... but most likely it would be a disaster. 

Hmm, to be honest I'm not sure what I want out of socializing, besides stimulation. There sure have been times were I've talked with someone, and then wondered "wait, why am I doing this?" So I'm not that into socializing just for the sake of socializing, but still, I do get bored if I never have anyone to talk with. Need another mind to keep things fresh. _Connecting _sounds good, though I'm kind of self-centered so I also like just having someone to express myself to.

The animal game-thing. Doubt I would get into that, but depends on how drunk I was perhaps.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I want to add that I could also discuss lizardcat, but I'd be more interested in the science. Ni can be extremely random at times, but it's a different level of randomness. I might for example call my cat a catdog if she does something uncharacteristically cat-like. There's more snark and sarcasm to it. I also like puns and double-entendres this way where one word can have several meanings within the same context that is not readily apparent and thus may seem random. For example, I figured out the figure. On a different side note while we are about quadra humor (that subject does deserve its own thread), I love this guy. So funny and I think it's interesting how he mocks Fe by mimicking Fe but exaggerating it so it's made fun of instead (Fe types stay away because I guess there's a risk to be offended ) :
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFUI02fPEgQ


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> I want to add that I could also discuss lizardcat, but I'd be more interested in the science.


I can see how that would be interesting, but how would the actual science work? That's how I think it would likely be disastrous. But then I don't know that much about breeding either. =P


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> I can see how that would be interesting, but how would the actual science work? That's how I think it would likely be disastrous. But then I don't know that much about breeding either. =P


We can already mix DNA together from different species so not a problem. There are for instance bunnies that glow in the dark. One might discuss how ethical this is however, and what could happen if we did not regulate it.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets/glowing-bunny-born-in-turkey-130813.htm


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> We can already mix DNA together from different species so not a problem. There are for instance bunnies that glow in the dark. One might discuss how ethical this is however, and what could happen if we did not regulate it.


Oh yeah, there is that. It's already kind of depressing what breeding has done to some animals.

(Still, not going to lie. It would be interesting to see a lizardcat.)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Also genetically speaking, I don't think the total DNA percentage is that great between lizards and cats though they do belong to different families.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Also genetically speaking, I don't think the total DNA percentage is that great between lizards and cats though they do belong to different families.


 Hold on a second, not just families (cats are a different subfamily (felidae) to say, tigers which are pantherinae, and a different upper family to say, idk, dogs) but they're a whole clade away, they're as far as you can get despite still both being animals.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> Hold on a second, not just families (cats are a different subfamily (felidae) to say, tigers which are pantherinae, and a different upper family to say, idk, dogs) but they're a whole clade away, they're as far as you can get despite still both being animals.


Yes, but I didn't specify cat to be the domesticated cat. Even so as you point out its a subfamily so they are in fact the same family. 

But I am most of all talking about genetics here. At the genetic level plants and humans are surprisingly similar in terms of DNA, just that humans got more being a more complex species. On a strict physical level as in appearance, shape etc humans and plants are very far apart yet we share some genetic code. The physical nature belies our genetics and common ancestry.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Yes, but I didn't specify cat to be the domesticated cat. Even so as you point out its a subfamily so they are in fact the same family.
> 
> But I am most of all talking about genetics here. At the genetic level plants and humans are surprisingly similar in terms of DNA, just that humans got more being a more complex species. On a strict physical level as in appearance, shape etc humans and plants are very far apart yet we share some genetic code. The physical nature belies our genetics and common ancestry.


 Well, for sure even in nature animals of same family but differing subfamilies are similar enough that they can mate (tho, their offspring cannot ), seen famously with cats (LIGER !) and commonly with ungulates (mules etc.) As for what WE can do to them ... I don't want to think about it. The real interesting thing to me is human-chimpanzee or orangutan mix.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

HKitty said:


> I just want to jump in on what *Diphenhydramine* and *ephemereality* have been discussing. Good stuff. Especially Diphenhydramine, you've helped me a lot to understand ESTp's.


 (1) You didn't quote me properly again, I almsot missed this ): 
(2) there are quite a few people who don't believe I am an SLE, so 



HKitty said:


> If I can connect with someone, that to me is more important than having purpose. Or, looked at another way, _other people_ give me a purpose. (Probably more of an Delta NF thing).


  to me, people are resources, fundamentally. Not necessarily for my direction, but just in general. Connection is secondary - almost tertiary, I think, because for me it happens simultaneous to, and resulting from, purpose.



HKitty said:


> Being silly or goofy (Ne) I find, lets me connect with people superficially, and this allows me to “manage” more people, if you will. I may not go deep, but I get enough of everyone that I start to see where more intimate conversations could go if I chose to engage a person or two from the group. But more importantly, I begin to see their interests, talents, aspirations, etc., without being burdened by their whole life story* or other information which would prevent me from seeing (only) what is positive in them, and what they could achieve. I become sort of an encourager and sympathizer when socializing, especially in a group setting.


 Warning: Se-ni values bias approaching.

Ne seems to be rly popular generally. People who are larger than life and who can make wacky connections are viewed as stimulating. Most of the objectively intelligent people I know however see this as shallow and facile. I would tend to agree. It seams almost meaningless and purposeless. I often feel Se-Ni is always about something whereas Ne-Si is never about anything. 



HKitty said:


> And it has no meaning or purpose beyond, OMG LOL!!1! WouULDn'T That BE so Weird??


 RIGHT! Exactly. A waste of time  Not to say I don't like shooting the shit or doing pointless things, of course I do, but it's got to be with people who I share a sense of humour, not just random idiots. Do I sound like a gamma now?



HKitty said:


> When I socialize with others my “agenda” is just to socialize with them.


 It seems so simplistic (no offence.)


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> RIGHT! Exactly. A waste of time  Not to say I don't like shooting the shit or doing pointless things, of course I do, but it's got to be with people who I share a sense of humour, not just random idiots. Do I sound like a gamma now?


I think it's normal to prefer people you share something with, rather than random idiots. At least I would agree that that's what's preferable.


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## Takadox (Apr 5, 2013)

What's with all the alpha hate around here? You're all entitled to your opinions of course, but some people around here and I won't name names seem to have quite a bit of disdain for us.

Is there a reason?

What would you say the major attitude of each quadra is? What sort of goals are they looking for? Why do you think this?

Also about DNA while we may contain nearly 99% with other people ,that less than 1% difference actually, makes up for all the diversity in people, so it would seem a apparent that even a small change in DNA can make something incredibly different. Which might make combinations or augmentation of organic life a problematic situation. Many things might not even be possible, while other things that we never imagined will be. Seems to be the way of technology. Five year predictions can be pretty accurate and sometimes even ten year, but past that even general ones seem to miss the mark except for a truly visionary mind once in a while. So we'll see.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Takadox said:


> What's with all the alpha hate around here? You're all entitled to your opinions of course, but some people around here and I won't name names seem to have quite a bit of disdain for us.
> 
> Is there a reason?


 The most visible target is the one most fired upon.



Takadox said:


> What would you say the major attitude of each quadra is? What sort of goals are they looking for? Why do you think this?


 This has been discussed over the past few pages - I put down Purpose for beta, Meaning for gamma and Connection for delta, though - I don't know about the latter, and this is only as my observation as one of four betas, nobody else has really chimed in on it. I couldn't say for alpha (possibly Impression.) The reasonings are in the past 2-3 pages.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Takadox said:


> What's with all the alpha hate around here? You're all entitled to your opinions of course, but some people around here and I won't name names seem to have quite a bit of disdain for us.
> 
> Is there a reason?
> 
> ...


Just because we may be vocal doesn't mean that it's all truth. I am honest when I say I don't like alpha much, but I have also met people from every quadra and not liked them, just like I have met alphas I like. Cognitively however, I find alphas just impossible to digest and it only gets worse in larger social settings. 

I might opine though I realize this is more of an Se approach, that it is also in your responsibility as a quadra member to stand up for your quadra if you feel it's being wrongly slighted and voice a different opinion for the sake of balance. I have a feeling that if you're alpha this method just isn't preferred because of devalued Se so then be it. Those with strong voices will always cry the loudest and in the light of such competition one has to be the one crying louder then or admit defeat.

Quadra-wise, it's just going to be this way. We have a fair number of alphas around but rarely do they speak up in favor of their quadra. So yes, in the struggle between judicious and decisive the betas and gammas will make more noise.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

In a way I do feel for Deltas. It seems to me that Deltas gets the short end of the stick in all their conflictor relations. Deltas takes offense easily and possible confrontations are largely ineffective as Beta is either Se ego or Se seeking.

Not even IEI will be intimidated by demonstrative Se by an LSE. So this creates a very awkward situation where the IEI will either turn a deaf ear to what the LSE has to say (disrespectful), remain calm and largely unconcerned but amused by the display (also disrespectful) or when the LSE actually gets under the skin of the IEI, respond with confrontation themselves and seriously question the validity of the statements from the LSE (oh no you didn't!). And even if it sounds weird, the IEI will actually not back down from their position which for the LSE means that they will remain in the conflict about whatever made them feel uncomfortable in the first place. IEI have the strange ability to respond to confrontation without provoking violence. So while this greatly upsets the LSE, what the IEI does is what makes it dual with SLE -- and SLE seek people who have a back bone and are trustworthy in their relations to make up for their own deficiency in Fi. So if you think about IEI in the sense that they are what SLE seek and that SLE is what IEI seek then no, any attempts at force by the LSE will not work on the IEI. In tandem with IEI not seeing the value of Te on its own, basing the criticism on a Te egos Fi-flavoured perspective will simply be dismissed as not relevant. It really puts the LSE at a disadvantage by default, and this seems to be the theme of all Beta-Delta conflictors.

I have heard somewhere (don't remember where) that Deltas often view life as a struggle to protect themselves from 'a world where Betas are in charge', so I do lend some credit to that considering how I perceive Beta vs Delta.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> (1) You didn't quote me properly again, I almsot missed this ):
> (2) there are quite a few people who don't believe I am an SLE, so
> 
> to me, people are resources, fundamentally. Not necessarily for my direction, but just in general. Connection is secondary - almost tertiary, I think, because for me it happens simultaneous to, and resulting from, purpose.


Oh, I think you are very much an ESTp.  
I see connection as primary; I guess it must be a quadra difference. I don't know about other Deltas, but for me purpose is found through other people, so connection _must_ happen first.



Diphenhydramine said:


> Warning: Se-ni values bias approaching.
> 
> Ne seems to be rly popular generally. People who are larger than life and who can make wacky connections are viewed as stimulating. Most of the objectively intelligent people I know however see this as shallow and facile. I would tend to agree. It seams almost meaningless and purposeless.


I suppose. I mean where is the the lizard-cat going to take you, in a practical sense? Nowhere, or perhaps as comic book character or the logo for some company (lol, Ne working again). I think Ne is viewed as stimulating mostly to Si. From what I've witnessed with Se-types, they see it either as an annoyance or strange. If they do accept an Ne-idea, it's usually because it aligns with something they already believe in or are working on. 

BUT, Ne also produces things that have some worth. I wrote in another thread how I used Ne to come up with the idea to put a music player inside of earmuffs. I thought up all the little details and it isn't hard to imagine it as being something that could be manufactured. Another example, I have an ISTp friend and we're working (albeit very slowly) on creating a website. I asked her what she had so far and from what she told me, I started producing a host of different ideas on what the logo could be and what the banner would look like, etc.
I'm sure there's a million other examples of how Ne is useful. (Ohhh.... I got a thread idea!!)



Diphenhydramine said:


> I often feel Se-Ni is always about something whereas Ne-Si is never about anything.


 ROFL!!!!! I think I'm going to use this as a quote!!!




Diphenhydramine said:


> It seems so simplistic (no offence.)


I admit it is, but I'm of the belief that not everything in life must be experienced as something potentially meaningful. I'm somewhat of a nihilist, and that shapes how I approach life. Right now, it's a "Life is short", stop giving such a f*ck about other people and focus on yourself mantra. I suppose I do socialize for other reasons, like "this person could be useful in the future" or "that person has a lot of connections to people I'd like to meet" or "hey, she makes reeaaaly good brownies".


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

HKitty said:


> Oh, I think you are very much an ESTp.
> I see connection as primary; I guess it must be a quadra difference. I don't know about other Deltas, but for me purpose is found through other people, so connection _must_ happen first.


 What if your purpose was to kill other people, would you need to connect to them? Lol, not serious, but that's how I see it, connection is not important to accomplish an end, though it's useful and coincidentally preferable.



HKitty said:


> I suppose. I mean where is the the lizard-cat going to take you, in a practical sense? Nowhere, or perhaps as comic book character or the logo for some company (lol, Ne working again). I think Ne is viewed as stimulating mostly to Si. From what I've witnessed with Se-types, they see it either as an annoyance or strange. If they do accept an Ne-idea, it's usually because it aligns with something they already believe in or are working on.


 Yea, possibly, but then again: for a result-type, if Ne arrives at a conclusion, I like the conclusion it arrives it and how it got there is largely irrelevant. There's a certain egalite in that idea and I think apart from one or two things I am not "typist" in any way: what really matters is the conclusions people come to and whether they act on them. How they come to those conclusions is their prerogative, so long as they reach the right one... 



HKitty said:


> BUT, Ne also produces things that have some worth. I wrote in another thread how I used Ne to come up with the idea to put a music player inside of earmuffs. I thought up all the little details and it isn't hard to imagine it as being something that could be manufactured. Another example, I have an ISTp friend and we're working (albeit very slowly) on creating a website. I asked her what she had so far and from what she told me, I started producing a host of different ideas on what the logo could be and what the banner would look like, etc.
> I'm sure there's a million other examples of how Ne is useful. (Ohhh.... I got a thread idea!!)


 Well, as I said earlier, it might produce good things tangentially, but even 1 thousand monkeys ... ah, that's possibly insulting.  But basically what I said in the prior paragraph, everyone can do something good and if they do it, it's commendable.



HKitty said:


> ROFL!!!!! I think I'm going to use this as a quote!!!


 Lmao, go ahead. (It was tongue in cheek though.)



HKitty said:


> I admit it is, but I'm of the belief that not everything in life must be experienced as something potentially meaningful. I'm somewhat of a nihilist, and that shapes how I approach life. Right now, it's a "Life is short", stop giving such a f*ck about other people and focus on yourself mantra. I suppose I do socialize for other reasons, like "this person could be useful in the future" or "that person has a lot of connections to people I'd like to meet" or "hey, she makes reeaaaly good brownies".


 I actually agree, that nothing must be meaningful, but it MUST have purpose !!! You're here for eighty years only, there's not a second that should be wasted time. Ironic, since I waste a lot of time, but it's all building towards this feeling that what I'm doing is at least achieving something even if it's extremely minor and frankly meaningless.

This is another thing that I'm not so sure on - if life is short, why focus on yourself? that kind of idea is really intuitively ingrained into the way we think, but I don't think it has any basis. what relation does the length of your life have to who you dedicate it to?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> That's why I think she is an ESE over EIE because I think that's something alpha may enjoy more over beta. It lacked the competitive edge as I mentioned, suggesting a lack of Se preference in the activity she suggested. But aside that yes, she's also quite dumb and even if she wasn't an Fe type, I am not sure I would hang out with her for that reason alone because we share almost nothing together.
> 
> Also, as for Fe types using the thanks button, I see that more commonly in ego, especially base types, over other types. Not sure why exactly it seems more prominent in base types. So I don't mean every Fe type does this lol, just that it's an uncanny behavior I have observed from them that actually exemplifies the way Fe operates especially when situated in ego block, trying to create this group atmosphere or whatever by making people feel involved into a sense of social collective even _if_ it is on the internet and in one thread.
> 
> In contrast, I can be a bit anal that way that I may refuse to thank someone's post even if I find the information informative because I don't like the person. I tend to thank people based on the quality of information they provide though, if I find it personally interesting/meaningful or not.


I'm not sure if you are referring to me or not as we did have a convo about this on this subforum. I don't thank everyone who posts in my threads and I am doing it less and less now. I thank people when they're posts are informative, are personally meaningful to me, make me laugh or if I am in agreement with it and liking them does have a definite impact on this. I don't thank posts by people who post things I don't find helpful, don't resonate with me at all, are either antagonist, offensive or stupid or if they have pissed me off recently. I had this situation with a poster in this forum recently who got angry with me when I failed to be impressed by his "theories which were expressed with a angry air of superiority" and then basically found different ways of implying that I was stupid for disagreeing with him. This was a political thread, btw. This poster has posted virtually identical opinions that match mine in other threads but I won't thank them because I find his contemptuous, superior attitude off putting.


ETA: to respond to the OP. I love Alphas because they can be very silly (the NTs especially) and loads of fun. Betas are more intense but because their focus tends to be on others (especially the Fe types), you can't help feeling good in their presence. I find that *some* Gammas can be too intense and argumentative ( particularly the NT types) and overly emotionally intense ( the SF types). Deltas: while being a social introvert, I tend to prefer smaller groups; being in a constrained situation and forced to talk about my feelings is my idea of hell. I wanted to attend some philosophical group discussion until I read that I would have to discuss theories in an individualistic personal context; as opposed to just discussing abstract ideals, which I love. I want to discuss ideas, values and opinions, NOT how things apply to me personally. It's the broader context that excites me not individual naval-gazing.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I actually agree, that nothing must be meaningful, but it MUST have purpose !!! You're here for eighty years only, there's not a second that should be wasted time. Ironic, since I waste a lot of time, but it's all building towards this feeling that what I'm doing is at least achieving something even if it's extremely minor and frankly meaningless.


I can see your logic here, though I tend to feel life in general is kind of pointless, so if I needed purpose I don't know if I would still be alive. 

Hmm, yeah. It's interesting how different people approach life.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Inguz said:


> In a way I do feel for Deltas. It seems to me that Deltas gets the short end of the stick in all their conflictor relations. Deltas takes offense easily and possible confrontations are largely ineffective as Beta is either Se ego or Se seeking.
> 
> Not even IEI will be intimidated by demonstrative Se by an LSE. So this creates a very awkward situation where the IEI will either turn a deaf ear to what the LSE has to say (disrespectful), remain calm and largely unconcerned but amused by the display (also disrespectful) or when the LSE actually gets under the skin of the IEI, respond with confrontation themselves and seriously question the validity of the statements from the LSE (oh no you didn't!). And even if it sounds weird, the IEI will actually not back down from their position which for the LSE means that they will remain in the conflict about whatever made them feel uncomfortable in the first place. IEI have the strange ability to respond to confrontation without provoking violence. So while this greatly upsets the LSE, what the IEI does is what makes it dual with SLE -- and SLE seek people who have a back bone and are trustworthy in their relations to make up for their own deficiency in Fi. So if you think about IEI in the sense that they are what SLE seek and that SLE is what IEI seek then no, any attempts at force by the LSE will not work on the IEI. In tandem with IEI not seeing the value of Te on its own, basing the criticism on a Te egos Fi-flavoured perspective will simply be dismissed as not relevant. It really puts the LSE at a disadvantage by default, and this seems to be the theme of all Beta-Delta conflictors.
> 
> I have heard somewhere (don't remember where) that Deltas often view life as a struggle to protect themselves from 'a world where Betas are in charge', so I do lend some credit to that considering how I perceive Beta vs Delta.


Wow! I so totally relate to this. How did you manage to get inside my head? =XD

No one can tell me what to think about anything and it drives some people batty. So maybe I _am_ a Te PoLR, then?


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> Wow! I so totally relate to this. How did you manage to get inside my head? =XD
> 
> No one can tell me what to think about anything and it drive some people batty. So maybe I _am_ a Te PoLR, then?


Huh. I got a new idea. Maybe you are ILI? Surprising that I didn't think of this before, it fits perfectly with your multiple statements about strongly disliking emotional intensity. Now that I have seen more of you I have to agree with Ni-Se valuing.

But about being good at socionics it fits like a glove for me. I have a lot of insight into other peoples' natures and emotions and seeks to understand this through Ti, logical systems, concepts with patterns and trends that spans across all the types and creates beautiful symmetry. Since I usually read people well, it's just about figuring out how people that I meet fits into this symmetry, and for each person that I can fit into this I gain further understanding for the system, which helps me the next time I want to place someone in this symmetry. There is still so many patterns and connections that I have not understood yet. This created a lot of insights about how this operates in the real word. Being able to define it in more abstract terms helps me understand people better, connecting back to being Ni-Fe.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Inguz said:


> Huh. I got a new idea. Maybe you are ILI? Surprising that I didn't think of this before, it fits perfectly with your multiple statements about strongly disliking emotional intensity. Now that I have seen more of you I have to agree with Ni-Se valuing.
> 
> But about being good at socionics it fits like a glove for me. I have a lot of insight into other peoples' natures and emotions and seeks to understand this through Ti, logical systems, concepts with patterns and trends that spans across all the types and creates beautiful symmetry. Since I usually read people well, it's just about figuring out how people that I meet fits into this symmetry, and for each person that I can fit into this I gain further understanding for the system, which helps me the next time I want to place someone in this symmetry. There is still so many patterns and connections that I have not understood yet. This created a lot of insights about how this operates in the real word. Being able to define it in more abstract terms helps me understand people better, connecting back to being Ni-Fe.


That's very interesting and I do relate to this statement:



> A view of the external environment being efficient, reasonable, and making sense is essential to their well-being and sense of inner peace, but they do not feel a pressing need for being proactive or productive themselves in that area.


But I only detest emotional expression when it's negative. I always thought this was because I'm an E5.

See, this is what makes my typing so difficult. I am pretty much equal on T and F. But what about organizing? I suck at that or would that be more of a Se thing and account for me being Se DS? While I do relate to a lot of the ILI description; I thought that I was too caring about other people to be an ILI so; I guess those descriptions put me off but other than that; it does make sense. I initially did type as an ILI.

I know that there is no way that I am an ILI-Te since I am not the most organized person I know; possibly ILI-Ni?



> Typically leads a somewhat reversed style of life and has a small circle of friends. Rarely takes the initiative in interaction himself, doesn't want to seem intrusive. Stable in his affections. *Feels uncomfortable in new company of people. Polite and easy in communication, but dislikes familiarity and boisterous displays of emotion. Considers excessive emotions just like any other extreme to be objectionable and unneeded and calls on others to be calm and reasonable. Loyal, typically tolerant of people and forgiving of their shortcomings. Shows magnanimity and generosity towards others in difficult situations. Aware of his obligations and does not promise anything if he is not sure that he will be able to deliver it.*


I do relate to this. I still not convinced that I'm not an IEI but I am extremely interested in exploring this further.

ETA: I like to keep people at a distance until I feel that I can trust them; so I am open but wary of getting close to new people.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Not ILI. That post you wrote to me just before screamed so much Fe I still don't understand why you don't consider it as a base. It is common for people to mistake Fe for intuition because in the common sense way of using the word Fe is intuition. It just isn't the Jungian definition of. See, one of the things that makes me think base is the fact that you constantly make judgements and that I suspect that you mistake rationality itself for logic which is why you feel you are even on thinking and feeling. Honestly though, based on what I've seen from you, you don't Ti well if at all. You always seek out the logical opinions of other people but never have I've seen you attempt to offer your own definitions of things that Ti is so known for. I can think of several IEI who are capable of doing that because they have strong Ti, but you don't. In fact you seem extremely appreciative when someone offers a Ti explanation I don't understand why you haven't considered it your DS.

And you are one person doing it but far from the only one. It is a pattern I've noticed in Fe types in general in how they want to come across as "impartual" because feeling resides between objects, not within subjects.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

@TreasureTower: Thanking posts with really good points is fantastic and something I typically end up doing anyway. But if there is someone I absolutely do not like or do not care for, they are basically dead if not non-existent to me and I don't read anything they write. People I tend to write off as disgustingly moronic in character also fit into that category.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> I often feel Se-Ni is always about something whereas Ne-Si is never about anything.


I think this is more "accurate" than many other statements I've heard on the board. If you think about it, Se is about "objective reality" where Si is about "how you experienced reality" and where Ni is about the "meaning" of something, Ne is about the "potential" of something. 

So in a worst case scenario, Si + Ne, would be about which ways you can change an objective situation into a situation that never happened through insane ideas.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Diphenhydramine
I tend to view Ne/Si types as lacking a sort of substance or "punch" to them. Gamma and Beta types seem much more blunt about where they stand and what they're about.

@OP
*Alphas:* you know that feeling where you have a beverage and it's just too damn sweet? yeah, that's how Alphas make me feel. they're fun for awhile, but I don't really feel much depth from them
*Betas:* I admire their charisma, gusto and grit, but they're so emotionally expressive it makes me cringe (like, it just comes exploding out of them). apart from that, they can be really pushy, almost like they're trying to sell you into joining them on their little group ruckuses and they need to step the fuck off. I do enjoy their humor though. Alpha humor is too goofy and Gamma humor is too damn dry. being a Gamma in a group of Betas feels like being a vampire in a group of werewolves. 
*Deltas:* they come across as gentle, unassuming and a bit boring (they often have an Sp/So-ish sort of vibe to them). I tend to like EIIs because they have a vulnerable cuteness that I eat up :kitteh:

and just for fun
*Gamma:* I vibe well with other Gamma SFs, but Gamma NTs can be a bit boring and overly competency focused. on the negative side, Gamma types can be a bit snarky and passive-aggressive, but I find their group structures much more tolerable and easy to navigate than other types.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Deltas:* they come across as gentle, unassuming and a bit boring (they often have an Sp/So-ish sort of vibe to them). I tend to like EIIs because they have a vulnerable cuteness that I eat up :kitteh:


Now thinking about this, I've had people IRL as well as people online tell me things like that (I think FreeBeer kinda mentioned something similar about me in another thread). I don't get why I come across this way or why I have this effect LOL!

People who know me well think I am judgmental and stubborn. waiii


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Now thinking about this, I've had people IRL as well as people online tell me things like that (I think FreeBeer kinda mentioned something similar about me in another thread). I don't get why I come across this way or why I have this effect LOL!
> 
> People who know me well think I am judgmental and stubborn. waiii


My sister is an EII and she is judgmental and stubborn as fuck. It annoys me to no end. xD


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Ananael said:


> My sister is an EII and she is judgmental and stubborn as fuck. It annoys me to no end. xD


Do other people think she is vulnerable and cute? Do they change their minds after spending a week with her? XD

I can see why my attitude can be annoying to some people at certain times but oh well.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Do other people think she is vulnerable and cute? Do they change their minds after spending a week with her? XD
> 
> I can see why my attitude can be annoying to some people at certain times but oh well.


Some people think she's vulnerable and cute, while others find her bitchy and stuck up. It just depends on the person, but generally she seems to be a moral compass of sorts for her friends. What I do like about my sister is that she's very goal oriented, but needs a little guidance at times. That helps formulate the basis of our relationship.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Not ILI. That post you wrote to me just before screamed so much Fe I still don't understand why you don't consider it as a base.


Because this is such a strong argument that explains exactly everything.



ephemereality said:


> It is common for people to mistake Fe for intuition because in the common sense way of using the word Fe is intuition. It just isn't the Jungian definition of.


Now you're just making stuff up because you don't want her to be ILI like you. I have never heard anyone say this before now. xD



ephemereality said:


> See, one of the things that makes me think base is the fact that you constantly make judgements and that I suspect that you mistake rationality itself for logic which is why you feel you are even on thinking and feeling.


Don't you think it's a bit too simplistic to suggest Fe base by this reasoning when she repeats over and over that strong emotional displays really bothers her?



ephemereality said:


> Honestly though, based on what I've seen from you, you don't Ti well if at all. You always seek out the logical opinions of other people but never have I've seen you attempt to offer your own definitions of things that Ti is so known for.


So if I interpret this correctly, maybe she have valued Te>Ti then?



ephemereality said:


> I can think of several IEI who are capable of doing that because they have strong Ti, but you don't. In fact you seem extremely appreciative when someone offers a Ti explanation I don't understand why you haven't considered it your DS.


ILI doesn't mind some Ti, it's still a strong function.



ephemereality said:


> And you are one person doing it but far from the only one. It is a pattern I've noticed in Fe types in general in how they want to come across as "impartual" because feeling resides between objects, not within subjects.


This is.... It is not understandable. It does not refer to anything in socionics theory.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Ananael said:


> Some people think she's vulnerable and cute, while others find her bitchy and stuck up. It just depends on the person, but generally she seems to be a moral compass of sorts for her friends. What I do like about my sister is that she's very goal oriented, but needs a little guidance at times. That helps formulate the basis of our relationship.


Just curious: What kind of guidance do you find her in need of most often? How does this "formulate the basis" of your relationship? Thanks


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Just curious: What kind of guidance do you find her in need of most often? How does this "formulate the basis" of your relationship? Thanks


A lot of times she doesn't know of the most effective way to go about doing things, if she wants to stick with a certain goal or not. She'll usually ask me for advice and then I'll give it to her, since I really like telling people what they should do and why they should do it (most people listen). I know that she still doesn't know what she wants to do as far as her career goals since there is still pressure from my dad to pursue a career in the health professions, which she has minimal interest in. So usually I just tell her something along the lines of choosing a study path in college and beyond that will cater to the needs of what she wants to do, but keeping her options open in the event that shit happens or she changes her mind. 

So because of the above, I usually end up advising her or bossing her around while she usually chastises me for some dumb thing I did or empathizes with my struggles (the basis of our relationship, essentially). In the past, my pushiness and her judgmental nature have made for some ridiculous screaming matches, many of which evolved into physical altercations since she did like to start hitting me when she was extremely angry.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

TreasureTower said:


> It's the broader context that excites me not individual naval-gazing.


Ahh.... but there's so much to be found in its deep recess...





Swordsman of Mana said:


> I tend to like EIIs because they have a vulnerable cuteness that I eat up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am eating this up... it put a smile on my face.


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## Inguz (Mar 10, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> That's very interesting and I do relate to this statement:
> 
> But I only detest emotional expression when it's negative. I always thought this was because I'm an E5.
> 
> ...


What kind of organizing are you thinking about?


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

uh-oh



ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Not an asshat, but a hint of cynicism with the smell of dark coffee in the air.
> 
> _"Though I do like having titles and degrees and things like that."_


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

My tone might've been misinterpreted. It's playful.


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

Let this be proof to ground his typing as ILE.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

liminalthought said:


> Let this be proof to ground his typing as ILE.


Me? Because Ananael is female and trolling about her ILE-ness.


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Me?


You too huh? I guess the playfulness could count towards that. If you consider her ILE and not trolling, only then will you be. It's impossible of course, but it can be possible if you trade what's in your signature.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

liminalthought said:


> If you consider her ILE and not trolling, only then will you be.


What?


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

liminalthought said:


> You too huh? I guess the playfulness could count towards that. If you consider her ILE and not trolling, only then will you be. It's impossible of course, but it can be possible if you trade what's in your signature.


Are you trying to be clever?


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Are you trying to be clever?


clever? I just thought I'd add to her troll a little but there was misunderstanding. Then I decided to add you in the ILE justification since you jumped on my first post right away. Now I'm not really sure what's going on.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

So much trolling even the trolls don't know what's going on?


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> So much trolling even the trolls don't know what's going on?


If you step back a little more, you can see how even that plays into it.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Not an asshat, but a hint of cynicism with the smell of dark coffee in the air.
> 
> _"Though I do like having titles and degrees and things like that."_


More of a realist than a cynic. And I prefer alcohol to coffee. 



Nonsense said:


> So much trolling even the trolls don't know what's going on?


So much mindfuck my brain is having an orgasm.



Edit: I also find it interesting that people think I'm male now.


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

Ananael said:


> Edit: I also find it interesting that people think I'm male now.


It means you're succeeding. That's how it spreads.


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## theof (Sep 23, 2013)

(Based on people's self-typings since I can't even type myself. =P)

Alpha: Friendly and low key but excitable maybe. (This is the one I'm having the most trouble coming up with anything for, possibly because there are fewer active alpha SFs and reading old posts don't always give the right impression.)
Beta: Passionate and prone to drama and trolling. (I had something else last night but I forget, maybe it'll come back to me.)
Gamma: Seriously oriented, seem to like irony and sarcasm. I find them somewhat intimidating and worry about antagonising them.
Delta: Genuine but distant and seem somewhat difficult to connect to.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ananael said:


> There's nothing wrong with wanting to rely on a credible source with legitimate information.


Yes but the way you decide "credible" is all based on subjective character judgement. The last thing an ILE would do, according to stereotype.

At least that's how I interpreted your post, let me know if you meant something else by _"disgustingly moronic in character"_ and by _"someone I absolutely do not like or do not care for"_. 




> Why not?


You seemed to be into bossing (?) people around with the aim of executing things well and materializing goals. Seems to be Te and/or Se. More "and" than "or", though. 

_"I really like telling people what they should do and why they should do it (most people listen)." _

_"I usually end up advising her or bossing her around while she usually chastises me for some dumb thing I did or empathizes with my struggles (the basis of our relationship, essentially). In the past, my pushiness and her judgmental nature have made for some ridiculous screaming matches"_


The very last part about you not liking her judgemental nature is interesting - is it about her not liking your pushiness?


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Ananael said:


> There's nothing wrong with wanting to rely on a credible source with legitimate information.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?


:O we shall need to exorcise the LIE demon out of you!
\o/ begone Te loving barstard! I command thee in the name of thine creator! Jung compells you! Jung compells you!


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

itsme45 said:


> Yes but the way you decide "credible" is all based on subjective character judgement. The last thing an ILE would do, according to stereotype.
> 
> At least that's how I interpreted your post, let me know if you meant something else by _"disgustingly moronic in character"_ and by _"someone I absolutely do not like or do not care for"_.


Someone disgustingly moronic in character usually does not listen much to reason and does not give the best reasoning for the assertions they make. Which is why I label them as such, and gradually assume that they will never post something worth reading. As for people I do not like or care for, they are prone to these things more often than not. 



> You seemed to be into bossing (?) people around with the aim of executing things well and materializing goals. Seems to be Te and/or Se. More "and" than "or", though.
> 
> _"I really like telling people what they should do and why they should do it (most people listen)." _
> 
> ...


Older sibling is going to older sibling though. Part of it is her not liking my pushiness, another part of it her having high standards and expectations for everything. Some of those expectations are not realistic. She may be able to dole out the criticisms, but she can't seem to take them when you do the same to her.


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

Nonsense said:


> So much trolling even the trolls don't know what's going on?


Trollception. Or Russian Nesting Trolls. Take your pick.


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## liminalthought (Feb 25, 2012)

Kanerou said:


> Trollception. Or Russian Nesting Trolls. Take your pick.


Just looking over, The16types makes what I did look painfully weak.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

Ananael said:


> Someone disgustingly moronic in character usually does not listen much to reason and does not give the best reasoning for the assertions they make. Which is why I label them as such, and gradually assume that they will never post something worth reading. As for people I do not like or care for, they are prone to these things more often than not.


Ahh alright. Could still be ILE, maybe 





> Older sibling is going to older sibling though.


= ?


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## Kanerou (Oct 8, 2009)

liminalthought said:


> Just looking over, The16types makes what I did look painfully weak.


The16types has trolling down to an artform. Lesser mortals should not attempt such perfection.


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## itsme45 (Jun 8, 2012)

TreasureTower said:


> Well, I'm leaning towards my current self-identified type: IEI-Ni. I think that I'm much too Fe to be an LII; much too Ti to be an EII; too warm and friendly to be an ILI but too introverted to be an ILE. I am also convinced that I'm am Se Ds and a Ni base. The more I understand about Ni, the clearer that becomes. The whole thing about Quadras confuses me the most because I do relate to the INFJ forum/ While I do like the Alphas, I do find some of them can be a bit too dry for me. I am not completely allergic to emotion; it just has to be nicely balanced with reason. All reason and no feeling can bore me after awhile but all emotion and no rationality can make me feel like shooting myself. I like to be around friendly reasonable people. I can't stand to be around, negative, erratic and contentious types.


Ahh, so Alphas aren't all that perfect after all ?  Okay.

What did you mean by Betas being "intense but (and a positive trait comes here)"? Do you like their intensity or is there any problem with it? Basically I'm asking, what you meant there exactly.

Interesting what you say about the relationship between rationality and emotion. What did you mean by "a bit too dry"? To me what's a bit dry is "friendly reasonable" people. (But only because I associate that with low key emotionality. And you may not have meant it that way.) To you it might be something else.

Otoh I'm not trying to say that I want people with all emotion and no reason. That can be a real pain in the ass in trying to sort out a conflict.

As for all reason and no feeling, it doesn't bore me. (Can be "dry" but it doesn't mean boring, that depends on the actual situation.) That's a contrast that's either useful or not. With your typing I mean 




> I actually think it has more to do with my childhood than anything else. I think that _anyone_; who had to deal with my late mother's terrifying, emotionally erratic and verbally abusive displays would likely be allergic to that type of thing


Yeah, there's many outside factors to this socionics business. That's a challenge to try and sort it out all and I find many people tend to forget about that




> I don't know if I'd really call it opinionated, let alone "pushy"; it's just that I'm not shy about speaking my mind, especially I think I'm right about something but yes, I can be very assertive when I need to be.


That's what I meant, you're willing to speak your mind. I didn't find a better word for it, I didn't want to imply that you have an opinion about everything though




> See my response to @_Diphenhydramine_, above. I don't really think that I am Fe seeking because I already use Fe but being Fe Ds is obviously more probably than any type of T Ds, IMO. I definitely highly appreciate and respect people who type me; who actually _read_ my posts and that interesting enough, would apply to everyone in _this_ post whom I've quoted.


OK, yeah, it can just be Fe valuing.

How do you relate more to Fe seeking than to Ti seeking, though? That part doesn't make a lot of sense to me at this point.

I'm glad if I can help, I at least do try to read your stuff and make sense of it yeah. 

Btw I asked some other question(s) to you in this thread, if you saw them, mind replying? (I recall asking about gamma SF)


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> I strongly dislike groups. I feel like my voice gets drowned out as other people are talking and I end up being the silent one. Furthermore, group conversations tend to feel kind of pointless to me because I feel like there's no opportunity to get close to anyone. These kinds of conversations feel like just talking for the sake of talking, so I get nothing out of them. Then again, even one-on-one conversations can sometimes feel that way to me.
> 
> Is liking groups really related to Fe? I would have thought it would be more related to extraversion and perhaps the social variant. o.o


Well for me; it all depends how much I have in common with the other members but yeah for the most part; I agree with Groucho Marx on this.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

itsme45 said:


> Ahh, so Alphas aren't all that perfect after all ?  Okay.
> 
> What did you mean by Betas being "intense but (and a positive trait comes here)"? Do you like their intensity or is there any problem with it? Basically I'm asking, what you meant there exactly.
> 
> ...


I feel the most comfortable around positive, inspirational people who have camaraderie. I belong to this Buddhist organization and the people there are the absolute coolest on the planet - the only group, I can tolerate.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Alpha...I like in small groups or as individuals . I think the NTs can strike me as too casually insensitive, even though I strike back more harshly than they would. Small groups of Alphas can be very accomdating, letting you slip in and slip out of their social gatherings without pressure, and being able to slip out is key, because I am going to get bored. Humor too light, activities too Superbowl party. But SF Alphas can make you feel oh so welcome and well fed. However, I would not have to rely on one in a serious relationship because I feel...shallowness.

BETA...my high school bff is an obvious EIE all singing and dancing and drama and theatrical clothes. In groups I sometimes feel an initial kinship bc of the Se Ni I guess, then I start to feel like I have been surrounded by the ivory tower politically correct mafia, and get crabby. Best as individuals. Scarier in groups. I also used to feel that my bff had an exhausting social life. Does not appeal, can even make me uncomfortable, Beta ST in particular their way of being boisterous or funny can repulse me, though I also admire their energy, on the plus side.


Deltas...very cool people, I agree give more respectful personal space, great for serious conversation bc of Fi Te. However can make me feel self conscious about my hardline ethics and bawdy or mean humor, some are annoyingly passive aggressive, while others are just kind of pleasant in a nondescript way. 

I think I am viewed by most as a varying degree of morally superior, shit talking or sweet, quiet, respectful of personal space and loyal with a surprising nasty streak of bite back. My ENFj bff once said she was very proud of me for not becoming a serial killer. I think generally I keep to myself so don't always come across as morally rigid or vengeful. I think a lot of people see my Se when they don't know me well, I am seen more for my comfort with gamma conversation about things like money, sex, and pragmatic solutions. People sometimes tell me I am effortlessly funny. Other people say Y SO SRS.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

fourtines said:


> activities too Superbowl party


Never met an Alpha that liked sports besides a teacher I used to have. xD


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

ThatOneWeirdGuy said:


> Never met an Alpha that liked sports besides a teacher I used to have. xD


You have never met an SFJ who likes sports? Ive encountered NTP who like sports. Furthermore, it's part of the Alpha description, herp derp derp.

Superbowl party is a METAPHOR for the light, non offensive, comfortable gathering Alphas enjoy socially.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

fourtines said:


> You have never met an SFJ who likes sports? Ive encountered NTP who like sports. Furthermore, it's part of the Alpha description, herp derp derp.
> 
> Superbowl party is a METAPHOR for the light, non offensive, comfortable gathering Alphas enjoy socially.


I know, but no, I don't think I have met an Alpha besides him that genuinely enjoyed sports. Just thought that was funny for some reason.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

*Alpha's* - I can get along with ISFp's quite well. It can be a hit or miss with INTj and ESFj. I find these types tend to take everything I say to heart, and easy to react irrationally. SF's can be emotionally manipulative. Don't see social boundaries.

*Beta's - *Individually I enjoy talking with Beta's, but when they are with a group I can find them irritating and that they care too much about their social appearance. Can find them socially pushy and not serious enough. Dramatic at times.

*Gamma's - *I find other Gamma's easy to talk to, and relatable. But can be harsh and sarcastic. Have a general moody appearance. Like to take the moral high ground. Can be dramatic in subtle ways.

*Delta's - *Enjoyable company, and friendlier than myself. Can sometimes be pushovers and can talk about seemingly nothing.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

firedell said:


> *Delta's - *Enjoyable company, and friendlier than myself. Can sometimes be pushovers and can talk about seemingly nothing.


o.o aww come on, when did I do that? In my personal experience its more like I don't know how to do the whole in between grey areas, so I'm either all nice and pleasant or scary aggressive & dead serious with very little in between.

:\ maybe that is interpreted as being a pushover? Hmm, I certainly don't know how to push for what I want in a pleasant way other then just doing /getting it, so more often then not I'll hold back and suppress a great deal in order to not have an "outbreak" I'll regret later on.

Have never been called a pushover thou....and I'm starting to think I have a reactivity / anger problem....idk how to address it thou.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

FreeBeer said:


> o.o aww come on, when did I do that? In my personal experience its more like I don't know how to do the whole in between grey areas, so I'm either all nice and pleasant or scary aggressive & dead serious with very little in between.
> 
> :\ maybe that is interpreted as being a pushover? Hmm, I certainly don't know how to push for what I want in a pleasant way other then just doing /getting it, so more often then not I'll hold back and suppress a great deal in order to not have an "outbreak" I'll regret later on.
> 
> Have never been called a pushover thou....and I'm starting to think I have a reactivity / anger problem....idk how to address it thou.


Maybe you aren't, but the Delta's I know are.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Oh fun. I never really got around to answering this thread!

My perception of the quadras:
_
Alphas_ are energetic. They're good to have in a social setting because they automatically try to include everyone and that can be good at times when I want to feel included, and bad at times I'd much rather be by myself because they don't seem to take refusals very well. 

They vibe kinda soft, like they don't offer the sort of core resistance I require to keep working at a relationship. They make small talk so goddamn easily and I don't get that because I only talk about those simple things when I'm already very close to a person. If I'm not close, I focus on more on identifying and trying to develop a deep connection first. But they don't seem to need that, and they consider casual friendships important too. They give off this big family vibe.

So they're nice, but not very stimulating.

_Betas _are kinda weird because I don't know how to describe my perception of them here. I suppose I would say it's rather love-hate. They can be so interesting when we talk and agree on a lot of things, and even have similar senses of humor, but then they get either forceful or manipulative or under-my-skin in this odd way that immediately makes me lash out and get defensive. Sometimes they really just don't get what I'm feeling and kinda roll right over it? That feels bad.

But they're good people to spend time with. I have fun with them; often lots of it.

_Gammas_ are... whoa. Intense. In this admirable way. There's this automatic respect for boundaries with them and this is definitely the quadra I'm not going to mess with, despite it being my own. With these guys I can be expressive, harsh and true to myself at the same time, and in a way that's very relieving because they're pretty no-nonsense, so less to worry about when it comes to interaction and discussion. Sometimes they're really inflexible and self-contained though.

_Deltas_ are unpredictable because they can be nice and annoying in equal measure. I like how they always respect my POV and stuff, but they are also fucking immovable and they just keep going on this same straight line that I cannot drag them out of without causing conflict. I respect them though. They know what they're doing more often than not.

Other quadras' perception of me:

_Alphas _think I'm the stereotype stoic and weird introvert because I don't join their groups often, and even when I do I don't participate. They seem genuinely struck by my sarcasm and general harshness and often just give up on me lol. They also have shown a tendency to talk about me behind my back and notice things I do very closely.

_Betas _often like to close the distance and say they understand me and what I'm thinking even if they clearly don't. Several of them find me intriguing for some reason. They also usually listen to me attentively... that's cool.

_Gammas _see me for who I am and therefore usually don't hate me. Well, I've never met one who doesn't like me lol. But sometimes I wish they'd pay more attention to me because it feels like they don't.

_Deltas _can think I'm a little off-the-wall and indisciplined. Or whiny. But idk.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

What an interesting thread, ties a lot of things nicely together for me.

Alpha:
Well they seem really nice and friendly on the surface.
Whenever you decide to do something with them it seems like a good idea at the time.
But it never becomes what you wanted, cause somehow you feel tied down.
Ne can be a problem too.

Beta:
They are the morally corrupt of this world.
That was my label before I knew what else to call them.
People who are cut-throat and basically will stab you in the back in whatever way available to them.
I'm still dealing with cleaning up the defence mechanisms I developed to deal with them.
Still I get along okay with them.

Gammas:
People who get it. A breath of fresh air.
I was so surprised every time I met one in my life.
I still havn't been able to meet as many of them as I'd like.

Deltas:
I find them very tricky, on one side they have a part I like and on the other, 
well Ne can be a trouble, I find them to get on my bad side a lot.

Well I'm too tired to say anything more than this.
Maybe some other time.


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## HKitty (Oct 11, 2013)

Kintsugi said:


> I work in a very Alpha/Delta heavy environment and have noticed a lot of the Deltas there tend to group together and form cliques based primarily on shared values and complimentary work ethics. There is a sort of "us" against "them" mentality; they tend to look down on others who they deem not hardworking enough (particularly the xSTJs).


Ahh..yes... working with... oh what should I call them... No, I won't go there, but sometimes it bothers me and sometimes it doesn't. I have an Alpha SF coworker who spends most of his work time socializing. AND IT JUST UNNERVES ME. Initially, I thought he was new to the workplace just like me because of how little he does... but no. He's been working there 2yrs already. I bust my butt everyday, only to watch him get paid to be a pretty face that stands around and chats. 

I give him the death glare every chance I get. I think it's working, 'cause he actually chipped in a little with a project I just finished. Lol. We'll see. 



Kintsugi said:


> I actually get along pretty well with Deltas I work with because they respect that I'm hardworking and reliable (I expect it has something to do with shared Te and Fi). I find the 'aristocratic' element more of an issue with rational Deltas, as


Gamma SFs are totally hardworking. Not only are they hardworking but they get results. It amazes me what SEE's can do.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Deltas are Aristocratic in the sense that they see people as choosing the law that they uphold, and that they have abide to enforce those laws for some sort of common goal that they might individually share. Fi does not allow for compromises, yet sees others as people who made their own personal life choices for their own reasons. Te however is the compromising function, yet as it is thinking rational, it does not see others as being people. In fact Te does not allow for themselves to be people in so much as they are a self-programmed automaton who seeks to subtly influence the laws. People are essentially sold into laws based on their history, their past and other such influences. Si-Ne comes into play whenever the fact that the Gamma is most certainly concerned with the true origin of a person, and that these influences brings forth their true nature on the table. The gamma sees people as rarely changing, as Ni only sees a common ground of a person. Despite their previous history. Si-Ne does not allow for this, Si-Ne-Te would rather pay attention to the usefulness of a person (their potential) and their "being" as an object. Humans in the aristocracy are objects, despite their autonomous nature, and as such the Deltas sees unto others as essentially robots who in some way or fashion manages to slightly change their destiny. The destiny which might not exist, if the coldness of reality did not make it so. Ne sees people as a sort prophetic coarse of destiny, and that Si wishes to at least personalize it through sheer experience, and to have the true coldness of reality affect them less. In a sense making sure that their solipsistic needs are met through Fi-Si. To Si-Ne in itself is simply being, and that this origin in this sense also comes from the fact that both Alphas and Deltas wish for nobody to have came from a mother rather than from the universe itself. That they have never been born. The universe is however is a cold place, without the warm touch of sentient, intelligent beings. Te-Ne is the most common ingredient in the aristocracy, as they wish to affect the world not through warmth, but through mechanical efficiency, so that they and their loved ones may never see that they will be without ever again. Common laws simply wish to facilitate that despite a human uniqueness, that people can be categorized based on their experiences, not their being but on their material. These laws only ascribe behavior however, and that despite their willingness to fall into such a degree of categorical reality values, that they do not truly take these to heart when the cold-warmth of another does when they finally reach another person. They are still a "American" but "American" is still a different thing to many people. In that sense Te-Fi knows that they are "American", and this shapes their person, but this is not what they are all about.


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