# Integration-Disintegration Type Pairings



## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Example: 3-9, 1-4, 9-6, 5-7, 2-8, etc...


-How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?
-Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?
-Does the role of the Integration type act as a benefactor and the other one just get, take, and receive (most of the time)?
-What are the positive traits of the Disintegration type that he/she can offer to his/her Integration type lover (or friend)?
-Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?
-Does the Integration type help his/her Disintegration type partner integrate easily?
-Or the Integration type helps the Disintegration type become secured at least?


Note: Apologies for the term Integration/Disintegration type. I can't think of a better term.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Don Riso originally called the inner lines directions of disintegration and integration. Helen Palmer originally called them stress and security points. Riso's site now also refers to them as stress and growth. Many people simply disregard the arrows and call the inner lines additional connection points.

My view is that the arrows are misleading (an attempt to use the symbol to justify some arbitrary interpretation). The lines without the arrows are now often used to describe how one type also has access to the two connecting points. One point is no better than the other. Two people who share a line simply have easier access to each other's type, but they'll still see their own type as better. If each person is open to the other's type then it should be easier to understand and respect the other's way of being.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> Example: 3-9, 1-4, 9-6, 5-7, 2-8, etc...
> 
> 
> -How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?
> ...


From my experience... relationships with sevens - very good. relationship with eights - very bad. 

I don't think Integration/Disintegration lines have anything to do with other people. It's just about very inner functioning inside one type.


Actually, eight is sometimes referred to 'opposite' of five. So it explains why we need 8-like features to be healthy, to be complete. At the same time, it's not easy to get along with people whose attitude towards world and others is completely different from yours. There's a lot of misunderstanding.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

VamPie said:


> From my experience... relationships with sevens - very good. relationship with eights - very bad.
> 
> I don't think Integration/Disintegration lines have anything to do with other people. It's just about very inner functioning inside one type.


are you sure you aren't type 1? xD ... 1-5 is a common mistype and 1s usually have good relationships with 7s and very poor relationship with 8s, just a thought ...


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

VamPie said:


> From my experience... relationships with sevens - very good. relationship with eights - very bad.
> 
> I don't think Integration/Disintegration lines have anything to do with other people. It's just about very inner functioning inside one type.
> 
> ...


I have a phobic 6 gay friend, and he sees me as a source of strength, calmness, and confidence. We get along well. I don't think me being with him makes me anxious, but I guess he becomes more at ease with work and facing people if he's around me.

My SO is Type 3. Though it doesn't guarantee a shortcut to integration of 9, he does give me security. And I also become more action-oriented and experiencing life as it is, not just letting life pass me by (flows away from me).


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Let's see. I think my 3w4 best friend and I have an interesting relationship. She's one of the few people who really know how to piss me off, and I know how to keep her in check to an extent. We understand each other, but sometimes differences in approach to situations can cause problems. I'm too dismissive and passive for her taste at times, and her inflated sense of self makes me laugh usually.

I have pretty good relationships with 6s as well, and I find that more often than not, I have a calming effect on them, however when there is conflict sometimes I overreact to their overreacting. 

I think MBTI or whatnot also plays a role as well. STJ 3w4s (mom and best friend especially) are amusing, but there's a lot that I do learn from them, and surprising a lot of underlying similarities between me and them.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> are you sure you aren't type 1? xD ... 1-5 is a common mistype and 1s usually have good relationships with 7s and very poor relationship with 8s, just a thought ...


Yes, absolutely sure. Why should 5 have bad relationship with 7? Sevens are intellectual enough to communicate well with fives and they are a bit stimulating. And eights... are hard to communicate with and can be very exhausting. Note I didn't say it must be a rule for all fives to dislike 8s and like 7s, I just said that I'm an example of such person and that it may have something to do with similarities and differences.


Pavane said:


> I think MBTI or whatnot also plays a role as well. STJ 3w4s (mom and best friend especially) are amusing, but there's a lot that I do learn from them, and surprising a lot of underlying similarities between me and them.


I guess having a family member or a childhood friend of some type may play a role. My mum is a seven.


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## pizzapie (Oct 23, 2012)

My best friend is a 6w5, and we have a very off and on relationship. Sometimes we'll bring out the best in each other and other times I'll unknowingly bring out the passivity in her while she unknowingly projects her anxiety and it consumes me, gahh.

I think I help her more than she helps me though, probably because I disintegrate to 6 and she integrates to 9. She's the only person who's enneagram I am certain of, mainly because she figured out her type but looking at it now she's a very obvious 6. That's not a bad thing, it's just how she is.

Anyway, I think she projects her negative emotions a lot (she's also an extraverted feeler), which kind of consume me and then I'm in a crappy mood and then she's in a bad mood because I'm in a bad mood and then we're both in a bad mood, and it's just awful. I think I help her unwind, but not really because she's hell-bent on being uptight which irks the sh*t out of me. Don't know where I was going with this.

I think integration-disintegration pairings will depend a lot on the two types themselves, and also obviously the two actual people. But that was kind of a given.


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

What is it about those 9-6 friendships? My best friend from high school was a 6w7, and she'd drive me nuts sometimes (she freaking out over not knowing who Kaiser Wilhelm was on a test and thinking she was going to fail history class; me trying to calm her down by saying that it doesn't really matter in the long run). I definitely think that 9s have a positive influence on 6s; I could calm her down a lot of the time, while, when she was under stress, I'd get stressed out, too. Or I'd get really annoyed by all the questions she'd ask. .


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## pizzapie (Oct 23, 2012)

Ellis Bell said:


> What is it about those 9-6 friendships? My best friend from high school was a 6w7, and she'd drive me nuts sometimes (she freaking out over not knowing who Kaiser Wilhelm was on a test and thinking she was going to fail history class; me trying to calm her down by saying that it doesn't really matter in the long run). I definitely think that 9s have a positive influence on 6s; I could calm her down a lot of the time, while, when she was under stress, I'd get stressed out, too. Or I'd get really annoyed by all the questions she'd ask. .


I think a lot of the disintegration-integration pairings really benefit the one who integrates to the other's type more, since a 9 can't really learn much from a 6 but a 6 can learn a lot from a 9.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

with fives i usually get along really well. there's a very similar world view and attitudes underlying the connection. when we start talking our opinions are really similar on a lot of things, especially with things that most other people seem to diverge on. so, we kind of find ourselves on the same side of the coin on a lot of subjects when compared to other people. i appreciate how 5s don't care for morals, adhering to law or someone else's point of view. i like the honesty of 5s and the fact that i can be straightforward with them myself without them taking it the wrong way. i've also found that 5s are usually at home in science even if they don't really actively keep up to date on it themselves. i am a person who keeps up with science, and i like how i can have an engaging conversation on the subject with 5s even when they don't really know the subject at all themselves. my experience with 5s has only been positive so far. it seems to be more a mental connection though, than emotional. there is a small emotional component there to it as well, but the physical connection appears to be lacking completely. accordingly, i don't see most 5s as relationship/sex material in my own case (i'm pretty big on that physical connection thing), but they are excellent friendship material. 

with twos, i don't really mix too well. i have a low tolerance for the behavior exhibited by less healthy 2s; and the healthier versions...while pretty decent in themselves, i don't really have a lot in common with them and there's no connection between us. it's ranged from gagging experiences to indifference. not the type of people i usually associate with.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

pizzapie said:


> I think a lot of the disintegration-integration pairings really benefit the one who integrates to the other's type more, since a 9 can't really learn much from a 6 but a 6 can learn a lot from a 9.


So I could learn a lot from 8... probably by defeating them and eating their heart


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

pizzapie said:


> I think a lot of the disintegration-integration pairings really benefit the one who integrates to the other's type more, since a 9 can't really learn much from a 6 but a 6 can learn a lot from a 9.


Any type can learn from any other type. A 9 can learn from a 6 to be more aware of problems and dangers instead of just ignoring them, while a 6 can learn from a 9 to relax more and have more faith that things will be ok.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

I've posted about this before in the 6 forum, but I have more 3 friends than 9 ones. Many of my friends are 9-fixed and I typically get annoyed when their 9ish peace-seeking (AKA avoidance or people-pleasing) comes into play. The one probable core-9 friend is great, but we're not as close as we were. Our closest time was when I was severely depressed years ago, so I can't say for certain if I _learned_ anything from him or if I just "got better." We just got together the other night, first time in a while, and I was surprised at how sensitive he is about people (often not in a good way). In fairness, I think I did learn some "be happy with what you have" from him.

I enjoy being around 3s, in general. Admittedly, they do make my reactive-ness ping a lot ("Are they really being truthful?"), but I try to go with the flow or outright ignore it unless I deem it important. I feel like--about the ones I've known for 5+ years, not all 3s--we have things to learn from each other. One that comes to mind is image: I've learned that mine does count sometimes and I think they're more willing to not play up theirs sometimes. I think they've adopted a bit of my "happiness > success," and I've learned some of their assertive / "don't give a frick" behavior. Our priorities are usually quite different, also partly because of instinctual stacking, but a little understanding from both parties goes a long way, in my experience.

To be honest, I've had more bad experiences with people of types outside the primary triangle than inside it. Maybe my experience is odd, I don't know.


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## frenchie (Jul 7, 2011)

Nothing against type 3 individuals, but three of my least favorite individuals in the world appeared to be type 3 from afar. I don't trust my typing from afar. It was weird though, there was something in me that wanted to wake up and eliminate an immediate threat in my personal space. This was definitely fight in my fight or flight way. I don't understand what caused such an immediate and disgusted reaction to them as an individual. It frightened me that I could intrinsically not like someone for reasons unknown.

Granted, if I spent enough time with them I feel like I would see a different individual. Either way, two of these people were guys. One of them was a girl I was not really into. I wish I had a larger sample size to work with.

I type them as 3s, because as they have gotten older they have become less abrasive to me and oddly way more humble. Who knows what it is.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

My experience with 1s & 2s is very mixed. I find they often don't like me at first. Actually I think 2s often want me to like them, as they seem to want everyone to love/admire them, but my aloofness can piss them off. 1s tend to project crap onto me & x10 if they're Te-dom.

Regarding my relationships with 2s (all female friends/family members), I just find them sooo demanding in the long-run. I never really get close to 1s. I think they'd see me as moody & difficult to crack & just steer clear, and I used to assume they were priggish and self-righteous, so I'd steer clear (being more open myself now).

Being outside the 3-6-9 loop is kinda rough. The individuals of those types vary dramatically (even though the ego fix is a frequent one in people), yet they still seem to bond with each other well. I see so many couples of these pairings. 6-9 is really common, and 3-3 is extremely common as far as romantic/friendship pairings. I notice 1-2-7 types have more frustration with pairing & 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble. This is the rough order I'd put them as far as frequency in population, and I think it gets harder to "bond" when your ego fix is less frequent & you're average or lower health.


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

I have very good relationships with Type 8's, but I dont know very many Type 2's.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

6/9 relationships arn't really a winner for me. 9's actually stress me out more in some instances and I think this is due to being a reactive type, I want a decent response and with 9's, i've been responded with things like, 'whats the big deal' etc and so this makes me feel like my concerns arn't always properly validated or taken seriously and that my concern has become a flaw. Its not like my concerns don't exist but with some 9's, its as if they don't at times. This drives me crazy. Its quite similar to relationships with 5's and how they are more detached, I couldn't uphold a relationship with someone that uninvolved and unaffected because they prefer to distance themselves. Its not that I want OTT drama, I just want the other person to realise my concern without writing me off. Its horribly frustrating.

I prefer 3 relationships but here, I don't think I would feel very supported by them because of how much more they love their accomplishments, I would feel pretty neglected after a while. Id be happy with 3 friendships though. I think this pairing could learn a few things from each other.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

I can't speak in general, only from my own experience with my 9 friends (I'm a 6w5). I wrote this really briefly off the top of my head without much thought. Take it as preliminary--I could actually write a 20-page paper on this very subject that might be quite enlightening. I chose to focus on a couple of things in the relationship between my parents and myself.

*-How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?*
I honestly wouldn't like to ascribe much beyond regular human differences to my relationships with these people (who included my parents, my best friend, likely both my short-lived boyfriends, and pretty much everyone else in my life who is not a 9, but likely 9-fixed).

*-Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?*
I find that my parents were very good at leaving me room to do my own thing and embracing my creativity. I get annoyed with them for being negligent sometimes, but when I look at how bad my childhood could have been in an authoritarian environment, I feel a surge of gratefulness.

They didn't really help me "integrate" _per se_, as in "give me a sense of peace and inner stability". Some of their attitudes were actually harmful--I was taught that I didn't "matter" regarding peer bullying (one of the reasons I feel they were somewhat negligent--they just didn't care about it). In other ways, I was probably harmful to them--I stirred them up too much with my emotional reactions, and my step-father came to believe I was a "threat" to the family. Simply for being emotionally honest and enthusiastic about the world.

*-Does the role of the Integration type act as a benefactor and the other one just get, take, and receive (most of the time)?*
See above. I believe it's a matter of give, take, and miss. I feel I learned more from them as people than as types.

*-What are the positive traits of the Disintegration type that he/she can offer to his/her Integration type lover (or friend)?*
Again, see above.

*-Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?*
Not necessarily. I never got the sense, for instance, that I pulled my mother down to the level of disintegration. My step-father _did_ believe I was destroying the family, but he had underlying issues, and my presence there was NOT any threat to the family. 

I think that's actually key--people who get pulled down by "another type" probably have an underlying issue that needs to be addressed, rather than it simply being a matter of "vibes" or anything.

*-Does the Integration type help his/her Disintegration type partner integrate easily?*
Well, again, I feel extremely blessed for not having the authoritarian background that would have sparked off major issues. I find it's very easy to feel a connection to 9s, I guess, but that can also include the negative aspects of the type as well (like I said, I felt like I "wasn't important" in some ways).

*-Or the Integration type helps the Disintegration type become secured at least?*
Secured how? As much as any reasonably-sheltered child growing up in suburban America.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Ellis Bell said:


> What is it about those 9-6 friendships? My best friend from high school was a 6w7, and she'd drive me nuts sometimes (she freaking out over not knowing who Kaiser Wilhelm was on a test and thinking she was going to fail history class; me trying to calm her down by saying that it doesn't really matter in the long run). I definitely think that 9s have a positive influence on 6s; I could calm her down a lot of the time, while, when she was under stress, I'd get stressed out, too. Or I'd get really annoyed by all the questions she'd ask. .


There's just something about 9-6 friendship that just can't be explained by words. Yeah, true that 9s will more often than not calm the anxious nature of 6 and 9s are a positive influence on them. I just don't like my friend gets stressed though. I think you should have more willpower and control to not be affected. And the 6 trust issues, lol.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

frenchie said:


> Nothing against type 3 individuals, but three of my least favorite individuals in the world appeared to be type 3 from afar. I don't trust my typing from afar. It was weird though, there was something in me that wanted to wake up and eliminate an immediate threat in my personal space. This was definitely fight in my fight or flight way. I don't understand what caused such an immediate and disgusted reaction to them as an individual. It frightened me that I could intrinsically not like someone for reasons unknown.
> 
> Granted, if I spent enough time with them I feel like I would see a different individual. Either way, two of these people were guys. One of them was a girl I was not really into. I wish I had a larger sample size to work with.
> 
> I type them as 3s, because as they have gotten older they have become less abrasive to me and oddly way more humble. Who knows what it is.


I have nothing against Type 3s. Those are the types I really get along pretty well. We could have similar viewpoints somehow, and they draw out the inner drive in me and remind me of my dreams and wants that should be achieved, the soonest possible time, the better.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> My experience with 1s & 2s is very mixed. I find they often don't like me at first. Actually I think 2s often want me to like them, as they seem to want everyone to love/admire them, but my aloofness can piss them off. 1s tend to project crap onto me & x10 if they're Te-dom.
> 
> Regarding my relationships with 2s (all female friends/family members), I just find them sooo demanding in the long-run. I never really get close to 1s. I think they'd see me as moody & difficult to crack & just steer clear, and I used to assume they were priggish and self-righteous, so I'd steer clear (being more open myself now).
> 
> Being outside the 3-6-9 loop is kinda rough. The individuals of those types vary dramatically (even though the ego fix is a frequent one in people), yet they still seem to bond with each other well. I see so many couples of these pairings. 6-9 is really common, and 3-3 is extremely common as far as romantic/friendship pairings. I notice 1-2-7 types have more frustration with pairing & 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble. This is the rough order I'd put them as far as frequency in population, and I think it gets harder to "bond" when your ego fix is less frequent & you're average or lower health.


Can you explain why 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble? I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> *-Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?*
> I find that my parents were very good at leaving me room to do my own thing and embracing my creativity. I get annoyed with them for being negligent sometimes, but when I look at how bad my childhood could have been in an authoritarian environment, I feel a surge of gratefulness.
> 
> They didn't really help me "integrate" _per se_, as in "give me a sense of peace and inner stability". Some of their attitudes were actually harmful--I was taught that I didn't "matter" regarding peer bullying (one of the reasons I feel they were somewhat negligent--they just didn't care about it). In other ways, I was probably harmful to them--I stirred them up too much with my emotional reactions, and my step-father came to believe I was a "threat" to the family. Simply for being emotionally honest and enthusiastic about the world.
> ...


See my reply in blue text.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

*-How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?*


I recently ended a five-year relationship with a One. I don't know about in general, but for us it worked well enough to last five years. When it stopped working... well, it really stopped working.


*-Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give? Does the role of the Integration type act as a benefactor and the other one just get, take, and receive (most of the time)?*


Honestly, I would say they had more to offer me than the other way around. They were supportive, responsive, loyal, reassuring, encouraging. They helped me focus on keeping perspective (as opposed to remaining lost in my own self-absorbed little world), communicating effectively, taking risks to improve myself. What did I ever do for them? Cook dinner? 


I was the one who ended things, which they were NOT happy about. Perhaps I'm being too hard on myself. I did encourage them to lighten up a little, release the death grip on obsession with perfection, accept their flaws, and even the flaws of others.


So while I feel like I did more of the taking, it’s not that I didn't want to give. In many ways I am a very loving, understanding, supportive partner. I just, uh... feel like I'm way more trouble than I'm worth.


*-What are the positive traits of the Disintegration type that he/she can offer to his/her Integration type lover (or friend)?*


As mentioned above, I did have SOME things to offer. I feel like I was able to offer things associated with the healthier aspects of being a Four. Maybe this means they have added more healthy tools to their repertoire of coping skills, which they can use before resorting to disintegrative coping mechanisms? Maybe that’s the case in general? Does my phrasing even make sense?


*-Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?*


I really don’t know. They sure acted like a four when I broke up with them, but you know. Extreme circumstances will elicit extreme behaviors. For them that type or degree pain was unprecedented (I was their first serious relationship). Generally speaking, I don’t think I pulled them down into disintegration very often. But I also don't think I was necessarily the best person to help them grow/integrate?


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> See my reply in blue text.


Negligent--primarily in her ability not to "attend" to my emotional problems but to dismiss them as irrelevant.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

INTJellectual said:


> Can you explain why 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble? I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


I simply think they have the most trouble coupling (with any type) because of their particular ego fixes & being less populous (hard for others to grasp their core, because their fix is less common).

------

Personally, as a 4, I don't know many 8s... I don't feel like we run in the same circles in person. I haven't attracted any in person for friendship or romance. I find it hard to connect with people in general though.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> are you sure you aren't type 1? xD ... 1-5 is a common mistype and 1s usually have good relationships with 7s and very poor relationship with 8s, just a thought ...





VamPie said:


> From my experience... relationships with sevens - very good. relationship with eights - very bad.
> 
> I don't think Integration/Disintegration lines have anything to do with other people. It's just about very inner functioning inside one type.
> 
> ...


I'd voice cyamitide's thoughts here. I really get 8s and I don't dislike 7s, they can be fun, but they exhaust me in a way 8s just don't do. With 8s it's more, "let's go do things together and really do it", but with 7s it's like, "let's go do a bazillion of things together and then some" and the mind energy tends to stress me out. I just want that focus the 8s provide. 

I find 8s in general just calm and soothing, not at all different. 7s are more different than 8s to me. I've been good friends with a social 7 and I think the only reason why that was was because he was indeed social so he was more restrained. As a whole though, I have to say I just enjoy 8s more. 

Why would you fear your integration point? I think 8s if anything are very capable of bringing me out and integrate. One of my real life friends could very well be an ENFP 8 and I don't think I've ever been around anyone who's as capable of making me relax and actually engage world without making it feel like it's a force. It's fantastic because she makes me feel as if it's my choice and I want to do it with her. Otherwise I can be so uptight with people I don't trust because I don't trust what they'll do or expect from me, but with her I just really learn to let go a little more. 

I think if there's any person in my life at all I would have to mention that has really helped me to understand my integration point and integrate better and just become healthier overall, it's probably her.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> There's just something about 9-6 friendship that just can't be explained by words. Yeah, true that 9s will more often than not calm the anxious nature of 6 and 9s are a positive influence on them. I just don't like my friend gets stressed though. I think you should have more willpower and control to not be affected. And the 6 trust issues, lol.


In an ideal world. 9's who tell me to calm down usually get it worse, it makes me more reactive. Better to just accept and validate my concerns than passively deny them. But (and I don't know how many other 6's attest to this) please don't tell me or a 6 to calm down, chill out etc, maybe this is the CP side of myself, I don't know how this works out in phobics.


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## Echoe (Apr 23, 2012)

Deleted some of the questions I felt I covered in other questions.


-How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?

In my relatively limited experiences with either, they've been educational and inspirational for both of us. 3s tend to make me feel more motivated, empowered, and goal-oriented. In return, I think they liked how I made them feel seen and appreciated for who they are outside the achievements and stuff, and I might have helped make them feel more slowed-down and relaxed, which they might have liked? The 6s have been good about teaching me to be more attentive and be more responsive to life. I think I can rub off my optimism and help them feel a little more positive/safe about the world, plus we tend to give each other the kinds of dedication treatments we want out of our loved ones, so we both feel secure and seen. Meh, I've had times of being overly-pessimistic in which they've calmed me down and take a more rational/optimistic perspective too.

-Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?

Lol, not necessarily in my experiences. I feel like I can get a good bit off of both.

-Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?

My E6 mother wasn't very level-headed unfortunately and sometimes she'd upset me over things she was blowing out of proportion or pretty much imagining, so I'd run to my father who I would comfortably dub more sensible (to be frank) for better clarification as to what was going on.
I don't think I've phased 3s so far in life lol, nor have 6s necessarily done the same for me. My experiences with 3s are much more limited, but with 6s they've been able to stress me out mostly if I didn't know much about the situation (such as with my mother) they were sweating over to begin carrying my own understanding and mind of the situation. Sometimes if I feel they are really over-reacting to something or being too paranoid and accusatory it can annoy me, even if it's not even targeted at me.

-Does the Integration type help his/her Disintegration type partner integrate easily?

I feel like I've been able to find a nice touch in 3s to help me feel more empowered and less pessimistic, and again, they also inspire me to become more goal-focused as I'm around them. At the same time, if they regularly express some tendencies towards elitism or pride-fullness, it can make me feel kinda disgusted and insecure.
See above answers for my experiences with 6s as a 9.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I'd voice cyamitide's thoughts here. I really get 8s and I don't dislike 7s, they can be fun, but they exhaust me in a way 8s just don't do. With 8s it's more, "let's go do things together and really do it", but with 7s it's like, "let's go do a bazillion of things together and then some" and the mind energy tends to stress me out. I just want that focus the 8s provide.
> 
> I find 8s in general just calm and soothing, not at all different. 7s are more different than 8s to me. I've been good friends with a social 7 and I think the only reason why that was was because he was indeed social so he was more restrained. As a whole though, I have to say I just enjoy 8s more.
> 
> ...


Probably yet another proof that it doesn't depend on integration lines, but on who we meet irl. As I wrote, I met likeable sevens, so I like them. I can't think of any eight I've ever been in very good terms with.

Why would I fear my integration point? Well, I don't know why, did I say I would?  Remember that others are not integration or disintegration points. There are others, and you integration points are within you. Those are two different things.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Why would I fear my integration point? Well, I don't know why, did I say I would?  Remember that others are not integration or disintegration points. There are others, and you integration points are within you. Those are two different things.


Well, you wrote pretty much that you don't get along with 8s in a general sense because you seem to find their way of being very alien because their way of being represents your integration point, and this is why I asked. I was talking about people representing behavior, not people being points in a literal sense.


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> Can you explain why 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble? I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


You kinda explained it yourself. 4s and 8s can be *very *attracted to each other for various reasons - how different they are while still having a lot in common regardless - but that can also create a lot of clashes. Nevertheless, it's one of those pairings where things never get boring. I wouldn't say they have trouble, though. It's just challenging ^^


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## Naiad (Nov 9, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


I've seen a few fours mention their attraction to 8, but I don't feel it myself. I've never really been one to believe that opposites attract.

I suppose it's the intensity and a sense of seeing underneath their armor (or hoping to)? But their grounded-ness, their immediate and instinctual connection to body and environment is far from relatable. Then again, I am triple withdrawn (459).


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Well, you wrote pretty much that you don't get along with 8s in a general sense because you seem to find their way of being very alien because their way of being represents your integration point, and this is why I asked. I was talking about people representing behavior, not people being points in a literal sense.


They don't really represent integration point. Rather, the integration point of a five requires or possesses some 8-like qualities. Eights as people are very different than fives. So, either you find that difference valuable or too big to interact smoothly. For me the sense of hierarchy and competition, characteristic of eights, is very unpleasant. Even if they're ok, they are often tiring and not in postive sense (I had so much fun I have to rest) but in bad way. As I already wrote somewhere on forum, I think eights often treat me like another eight or have other problems with how to treat me - I don't fit hierarchy well.

Also a lot depends on what kind of people you meet. Balanced, healthy and kind people of any kind are better (at least imho) than your favourite type on low health level.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> They don't really represent integration point. Rather, the integration point of a five requires or possesses some 9-like qualities. Eights as people are very different than fives. So, either you find that difference valuable or too big to interact smoothly. For me the sense of hierarchy and competition, characteristic of eights, is very unpleasant. Even if they're ok, they are often tiring and not in postive sense (I had so much fun I have to rest) but in bad way. As I already wrote somewhere on forum, I think eights often treat me like another eight or have other problems with how to treat me - I don't fit hierarchy well.
> 
> Also a lot depends on what kind of people you meet. Balanced, healthy and kind people of any kind are better (at least imho) than your favourite type on low health level.


Why would 8s be concerned about hierarchy and why does the integration point for 5 possess 9-like qualities and what kind of qualities? I think the 8 qualities 5s take on when healthy are pretty straight-forward and quite logical since the soul child is 8.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> Can you explain why 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble? I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


Fours often like a challenge in relationship, they don't like it stable and boring. Fours and eights sometimes make those kind of violently romantic relationships with a lot of break ups and make ups, because fours like that drama and eights can take it. Also 8 can impress a four and four is an interesting challenge for the eight.


Some people say fives and eights are meant for each other but I seriously don't get why would it be so. I'm never interested in 8 guys. Actually they seem very off-putting to me.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why would 8s be concerned about hierarchy and why does the integration point for 5 possess 9-like qualities and what kind of qualities? I think the 8 qualities 5s take on when healthy are pretty straight-forward and quite logical since the soul child is 8.


Typo, I meant 8, not 9. Qualities like being assertive and be able to fight. 

Because they are. Or at least that's how it seems to me. But often they even talk like that, they act like that - challenging, measuring and comparing strength. The reason this type is sometimes called the warrior.
I don't support the idea of soul children. I wrote it somewhere... I used to be more eight-like as a kid and it had it's bad side. 
Every type has it's logic, but eight logic isn't like five logic.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Typo, I meant 8, not 9. Qualities like being assertive and be able to fight.
> 
> Because they are. Or at least that's how it seems to me. But often they even talk like that, they act like that - challenging, measuring and comparing strength. The reason this type is sometimes called the warrior.
> I don't support the idea of soul children. I wrote it somewhere... I used to be more eight-like as a kid and it had it's bad side.
> Every type has it's logic, but eight logic isn't like five logic.


I'm not sure I see those qualities as being part of the integration process. Rather, what I see is the ability to act on your skill, competence, knowledge and understanding by thus engaging the world instead of being stuck in planner mode. It's about learning to give of yourself, your time and energy, to share rather than withhold. 

I know at least one confirmed 8 at probably average to mildly healthy level and another person who is very likely an 8 and average and none of those people talk about measuring or comparing strength in the sense you speak of here. And I also like most 8s on this forum, at least those I'm pretty sure are 8s. 

I mean, to me, 8 is archetypically understood as a warrior not because they talk about strength or how to measure and compare strength, but because they will stand up and fight for what they believe in and protect those they care about when it really matters. 

And yes, 8 logic isn't 5 logic. 8s thinking is "simplistic" in the sense that they don't tend to think of the world itself as very complex and thus their thinking is perhaps one could say, not very nuanced. A part of their integration is to realize that the world exists in shades of grey rather than the simpler friend or enemy but nothing inbetween. 

8s can appreciate the deeper thinking 5s can provide though, since it doesn't come naturally for them, just like how 7s can appreciate the focus of 5 that doesn't come naturally for them either, just like a 5 can appreciate the more easy-going, spontaneous and fun-loving nature of 7 or the more doer-logic of 8.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Actually, eight is sometimes referred to 'opposite' of five. So it explains why we need 8-like features to be healthy, to be complete. At the same time, it's not easy to get along with people whose attitude towards world and others is completely different from yours. There's a lot of misunderstanding.


Eight is actually cited as the opposite of type 4. In Naranjo terms, 8 is the sadistic/antisocial personality & 4 is the masochistic/ borderline personality. The opposite or inverse of type 5 is 1.

I get along fabulously with the 5s I know. I've been writing a fantasy series and my co-author is a 5. Both of us prefer working independently but we offer such opposite skills that it works. We also respect each other's independent ideas and we both have the balls to argue with each other about ideas, but still respect each other and never make it personal. Also, two of my closest friends from the forum are 5s and I've had a great romantic relationship with a 5.



meridannight said:


> with fives i usually get along really well. there's a very similar world view and attitudes underlying the connection. when we start talking our opinions are really similar on a lot of things, especially with things that most other people seem to diverge on. so, we kind of find ourselves on the same side of the coin on a lot of subjects when compared to other people. i appreciate how 5s don't care for morals, adhering to law or someone else's point of view. i like the honesty of 5s and the fact that i can be straightforward with them myself without them taking it the wrong way. i've also found that 5s are usually at home in science even if they don't really actively keep up to date on it themselves. i am a person who keeps up with science, and i like how i can have an engaging conversation on the subject with 5s even when they don't really know the subject at all themselves. my experience with 5s has only been positive so far. it seems to be more a mental connection though, than emotional. there is a small emotional component there to it as well, but the physical connection appears to be lacking completely. accordingly, i don't see most 5s as relationship/sex material in my own case (i'm pretty big on that physical connection thing), but they are excellent friendship material.
> 
> with twos, i don't really mix too well. i have a low tolerance for the behavior exhibited by less healthy 2s; and the healthier versions...while pretty decent in themselves, i don't really have a lot in common with them and there's no connection between us. it's ranged from gagging experiences to indifference. not the type of people i usually associate with.


I have a similar experience. When I was unhealthy, especially, I was so repulsed by neediness in other people that I doubt I'd last very long with a 2. 



SharkT00th said:


> I have very good relationships with Type 8's, but I dont know very many Type 2's.


You have good romantic relationships with other 8s? 




INTJellectual said:


> Can you explain why 4-5-8 seem to have the most trouble?


Probably because the types are all very independence-focused?

I'm a 8-4-5 and I have had a lot of trouble - I never had a relationship for more than a few months until I was 29, at which point I dated a 9 who was able to put up with a lot more than other people could. I'm extremely independent and don't react well to being crowded, but at the same time, I can get possessive, so it's a bit unfair; it's like I need the person to show me they care but only on my terms? I've been trying to get out of this mentality even since before I started studying enneagram.



> I think 4 and 8 attract each other like moth to flames, them being extremely opposite in many ways.


You could say that again 



LeaT said:


> Why would you fear your integration point? I think 8s if anything are very capable of bringing me out and integrate.


I'd fear mine because I don't like seeing neediness or love-need in myself and tend to be addicted my own sense of autonomy and independence. The mentality of a 2 seems "weak" to me in my own weaker moments, when I'm stuck in my own compulsions. I want to say, take care of your damn self and let me take care of myself! Stop turning the other cheek! Be more selfish or the world will take everything from you! ... At the same time, a close friend of mine is a 2 and wears her love-need on her sleeve, and I respect the hell out of her for embodying it so gracefully. I've learned more from watching her live her own life than I could possibly learn from reading a book about how to integrate.



Naiad said:


> But their grounded-ness, their immediate and instinctual connection to body and environment is far from relatable. Then again, I am triple withdrawn (459).


Really, that's not relatable? Would you consider yourself sensual at all? It could be the triple-withdrawn tritype that is different.. but the 4s I know are fairly grounded, at least physically, even if they go in circles with their emotions (from my perspective).



LeaT said:


> Why would 8s be concerned about hierarchy and why does the integration point for 5 possess 9-like qualities and what kind of qualities? I think the 8 qualities 5s take on when healthy are pretty straight-forward and quite logical since the soul child is 8.


Yes. This is exactly why I get along with the 5s I know. The straight-forwardness that the two types share makes it a great pairing. I find 5s to share my straight-forward, no-bullshit approach, but fellow 8s don't do it for me as much because we're too similar. With a 5 I can feel like the queen of the physical realm while he has a lot to teach me in the mental realm, and challenges me and makes me think. Both of us are thrilled with those roles. It's also a huge turn on to watch someone who is so cerebral come out of their shell with me in a physical sense.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe said:


> I'd fear mine because I don't like seeing neediness or love-need in myself. At the same time, a close friend of mine is a 2 and wears this on her sleeve, and I respect the hell out of her.


Didn't you say that your ideal partner would be a 2 before?  I mean, I don't fear people who represent my integration point while I can have difficulties dealing with it myself but I see these as separate.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> Example: 3-9, 1-4, 9-6, 5-7, 2-8, etc...
> 
> 
> -How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?


Fruitfully, if you are both in a good place. Both partners are likely to have a lot to teach each other.

But if both partners or one are unhealthy, then it's likely to be difficult.



> -Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?


Both types offer each other challenge and comfort, and among that challenge is accepting a different part of who they each are. The integrational challenges the disintegrational to accept their soul child as a positive part of their person, while the disintegrational challenges the integrational to accept as positive the idea of someone who lives at their stress point, which easily gets negatively associated in their mind. While stress points aren't the soul child, they will probably still become more evident in the personality alongside the soul child when you move toward integration, since integration, like disintegration, engages the whole pattern.



> -Does the role of the Integration type act as a benefactor and the other one just get, take, and receive (most of the time)?


Not in my experience. Both are benefactors, and recipients, of different kinds of sustenance. 



> -What are the positive traits of the Disintegration type that he/she can offer to his/her Integration type lover (or friend)?


It seems like it's grounding, perhaps of an unexpected sort, as well as the challenge I stated above. The kind of grounding the disintegration offers the integration can especially show up as stability under stress.



> -Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?


Anyone can do this, if they are unhealthy and in a relationship - it's not inherently dependent on enneagram type. 

On the other hand, perhaps this would happen more with polar types (Naranjo): 1-5, 2-7, 4-8, 3-6-9. My experience with an unhealthy 1, when I wasn't healthy myself, was disastrous - we were both drawn to each other, but we were both incredibly wrong for each other, and the relationship developed into co-dependency and we both disintegrated even more. Now that I'm healthier, I enjoy 7s, I'm drawn to deeper relation with an 8, and it's anything but co-dependent. I can't extend the correlation over others' lives, but I can say both of my relationships seem to have (or have had) an archetypal quality to them, and the current one is supportive while the other was destructive. I don't feel quite the same draw to 1, though I still have distant kinship with the type and it often isn't hard to become friends.

When people are sincerely healthy, often they've also learned enough about themselves to choose their life situations wisely, including their partners, and so if they went for a similarly healthy dis/integration type it shouldn't offer problems. 



> -Does the Integration type help his/her Disintegration type partner integrate easily?


To me it offers a challenge. Nothing is easy about integration, but I am achieving it over time.



> -Or the Integration type helps the Disintegration type become secured at least?


When healthy, yes. But again, also another type of challenge.




> Note: Apologies for the term Integration/Disintegration type. I can't think of a better term.


Heh, terminology is terminology.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Didn't you say that your ideal partner would be a 2 before?  I mean, I don't fear people who represent my integration point while I can have difficulties dealing with it myself but I see these as separate.


Yes - you're right, I did say that, and both are true. I just elaborated on my comment about 2s (before I saw this post) so you can read that part again ^ 

But basically what I'm saying is, I would fear it, especially when I'm unhealthy. But if I am able to face scary parts of myself then it is an ideal match because of how much I would potentially grow.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> -How do these kinds of pairings work in romantic setting or friendship?


I don't think my friendships trend towards any specific enneagram type. But intimate relationships are a whole other ball game for me. I don't love typing other people without their input, but I'd guess that a couple guys I dated in the past could have been 2s, and if that is the case, it was not a pretty scene. It's worth noting, however, that I was wildly unhealthy back then. I reacted very badly to phrases like "I need you" and "I miss you" because it seemed weak and imposing, and I could actually be very cruel to people who expressed such sentiments. 

On the other hand, dating a 5 has been great. We both have different strengths and we respect each other's honesty and straight-forwardness. There are also no boundary issues because we both understand autonomy and independence, and respect each other's personal choices. The communication is fabulous. But, it is worth noting that we're both relatively healthy, and we both know what we look like when we're extremely unhealthy, and we communicate about how to avoid repeating those patterns.



> -Does the type who is the Integration of the other one offers more benefits than what the Disintegration type lover (or friend) can give?
> -Does the role of the Integration type act as a benefactor and the other one just get, take, and receive (most of the time)?


No - I'd say now that I'm healthy and I've been close with a 5, it's an equal partnership. 



> -What are the positive traits of the Disintegration type that he/she can offer to his/her Integration type lover (or friend)?


I mistyped at 5 when I was extremely unhealthy. What I didn't realize was that while I felt distanced from other people internally, I was also out "conquering" men and breaking the law and engaging in pretty wild behavior. That came so naturally to me that it didn't register; I was wild and "outside the boundaries" all my life. But what I did notice is taht I was thinking more than usual, I was more reticent, or even cold, on an emotional level. It had to do with being disintegrated after a major trauma. But I came to associate "thinking a lot" and disconnect from emotions with type 5 and also my worst potentials. Watching my partner exhibit the *good* potentials of type 5 is inspiring and makes me less disgusted by these tendencies in myself. His personal insights are extremely enlightening.



> -Can the Disintegration type pull down his/her Integration type partner to its disintegration, or not necessarily?


I wouldn't say it's impossible for anyone, but I doubt it is possible for me personally. I think the only thing that could push me to disintegration is another trauma - and even in that case I've examined myself enough that I doubt I'd disintegrate the way I did before. But if that did happen, I don't think he would put up with me in that state for a split second. He'd fly out the door and never look back, because he has self-respect.

I think, contrarily, he helps me to think in a more productive manner, and challenges me mentally.



> -Does the Integration type help his/her Disintegration type partner integrate easily?


I'd have to ask him, but if I had to guess, I'd say that 8s' carnality would be helpful to 5s, for very obvious reasons 



> -Or the Integration type helps the Disintegration type become secured at least?


This I don't know. What does security mean to a 5?


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I'm not sure I see those qualities as being part of the integration process. Rather, what I see is the ability to act on your skill, competence, knowledge and understanding by thus engaging the world instead of being stuck in planner mode. It's about learning to give of yourself, your time and energy, to share rather than withhold.
> 
> I know at least one confirmed 8 at probably average to mildly healthy level and another person who is very likely an 8 and average and none of those people talk about measuring or comparing strength in the sense you speak of here. And I also like most 8s on this forum, at least those I'm pretty sure are 8s.
> 
> ...


Yep, also acting more and less over-thinking, but the thing is every personality type is complex, and as far as I understand the integration point of one type is not the same as the whole other personality type - and that's really what I meant.

As I already wrote, people are different, and since you ask me a lot I told you what often I personally find hard in eights. It's like some fives here aren't as fond of sevens as I am. It's just individual matter. Every type has nice and bad sides. Now my last post aside from that discussion looks like I was against eights in general and I don't like it. I really don't care how fives may like eights and vice versa. I just wanted to explain why it may be otherwise, sometimes, for some people.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Yep, also acting more and less over-thinking, but the thing is every personality type is complex, and as far as I understand the integration point of one type is not the same as the whole other personality type - and that's really what I meant.


Could you clarify this? You mean that the integration point is not the same as becoming an 8 for a 5 for instance? I never claimed such a thing. Rather, I think it's taking on the strengths of type 8 as I already explained.


> As I already wrote, people are different, and since you ask me a lot I told you what often I personally find hard in eights. It's like some fives here aren't as fond of sevens as I am. It's just individual matter. Every type has nice and bad sides. Now my last post aside from that discussion looks like I was against eights in general and I don't like it. I really don't care how fives may like eights and vice versa. I just wanted to explain why it may be otherwise, sometimes, for some people.


Of course people are different and I never meant to deny that you like 7s more but I contrasted it with my experiences and I get along great with 8s. I was trying to understand your reasoning and where you were coming from since it seemed very foreign to me. 

I'm still curious why you find that integration towards 8 is difficult in the sense you described though, in that the way of being is very different. What is it that you desire or achieve to be? What kind of personal weaknesses do you strive to overcome?


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Eights as people are very different than fives. So, either you find that difference valuable or too big to interact smoothly. For me the sense of hierarchy and competition, characteristic of eights, is very unpleasant.


lol. 8s opt out of hierarchy. an 8 can be interested in being at the top though. and that's not hierarchy anymore. it's called calling the shots. now, go and get me some coke.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

meridannight said:


> lol. 8s opt out of hierarchy. an 8 can be interested in being at the top though. and that's not hierarchy anymore. it's called calling the shots. now, go and get me some coke.


Are you sure it isn't just a hierarchy with an eight on top? 

For me, fives opt out of hierarchy, it's when you refuse to fit into any place in hierarchy, but you are ok with playing different roles when needed. 



LeaT said:


> Could you clarify this? You mean that the integration point is not the same as becoming an 8 for a 5 for instance? I never claimed such a thing. Rather, I think it's taking on the strengths of type 8 as I already explained.
> 
> Of course people are different and I never meant to deny that you like 7s more but I contrasted it with my experiences and I get along great with 8s. I was trying to understand your reasoning and where you were coming from since it seemed very foreign to me.
> 
> I'm still curious why you find that integration towards 8 is difficult in the sense you described though, in that the way of being is very different. What is it that you desire or achieve to be? What kind of personal weaknesses do you strive to overcome?


No, I rather mean, that 'integration type' person isn't really something to compliment us, that's how I see it. Integration point is just some features similar to features of other type, but that type is much more than that. Mostly it's the motivation and attitude towards the world that differ.
Maybe I just have problems with imagining how to gain missing abilities from another person... The thing is, 8 has no problem with action, but the reasons and motivation behind that are different than five's, so I don't think it would be handy much... Maybe learning to act like some type may help in certain situations, but I just think everybody has to deal with their deepest problems on their own (not alone, but nobody can do that for you).



Yep, I just think we have different experiences, I guess I probably met some ok eights at some point but I didn't pay much attention. I'm usually very cautious of personality traits and behaviours that I dislike and I avoid people basing on that. It sounds a bit extreme, but it isn't, since I'm not very social anyway and I really regret every time I break the rule and behave to friendly to someone who seems off-putting. Maybe that's why I tend to notice and memorise mainly unpleasant behaviour.


I think personally I may lack decisiveness and some ability to action, but not hugely. I'm usually able to act very quick when needed, it's when I don't feel pressure I tend to drift away... But I don't like pressure  I think I don't have such problem with assertiveness and accepting my anger as many fives express. I wrote it somewhere in thread about soul children... I recognise some of unhealthy eight behaviour in my childhood attitudes, maybe that's why I'm not enthusiastic about them. 
If I was to say who impress me it's rather healthy threes. And super healthy fives, of course. I seriously can't imagine looking at eight and thinking 'I wish I was more like that'.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

@_VamPie_

I'm considering that you're talking about hierarchy as a structure for society that denotes everyone's place, not just one's own, hence enforcing a structure for social exchange and even regulating through law enforcement somehow dependent on status. So in considering hierarchy, a few questions must be asked.

Have I clarified the concept of hierarchy wrong? If so, explain what you meant by it.

What use would the type 8 have for hierarchy?

What use would the type 1 have for hierarchy?

Where would hierarchy see application in the 1's thinking vs. the 8's?

I see 1 as more prone to implementing hierarchy than 8, which will seek a simpler, more direct form of control. Am I wrong?


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Are you sure it isn't just a hierarchy with an eight on top?
> 
> For me, fives opt out of hierarchy, it's when you refuse to fit into any place in hierarchy, but you are ok with playing different roles when needed.


you're right that with 8 at the top it's still a hierarchy. however you are wrong with saying that 8s have a sense of hierarchy. that would be someone like 3, who is concerned with status for status alone. an 8's response to hierarchy is to either get to the top of it so they can be in full control of their life or to opt out of it altogether, again, to be in full control of their life. someone with a sense of hierarchy will want to be in it for the status it brings alone. and that is type 3.

i myself see hierarchy as necessary to get the job done. especially in corporate environment. you can't just bring in a bunch of people and hope they do what they're there to do or even know what they're supposed to do. especially people on low-paid dead-end jobs. management is necessary. management itself is hierarchical too, for obvious reasons. 

so, for anyone in a leading position, hierarchy is a tool. every corporate leader agrees with this. whether they are type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9. so this is entirely type-unrelated. 

and i think 5s wouldn't mind being on top of hierarchy either. i have a 5 friend and he's the same as me -- either opting out of it or taking the top position (bypassing all the middle positions). we both see societal rules and conventions as stupid, we resist any attempt to control us, but we're ok with being in control ourselves. what you seem to be talking about is anarchy.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> No, I rather mean, that 'integration type' person isn't really something to compliment us, that's how I see it.


Why not?


> Integration point is just some features similar to features of other type, but that type is much more than that. Mostly it's the motivation and attitude towards the world that differ.


But I think the point behind the concept of integration is that to actualize ourselves, we also accept that attitude towards the world so it does in fact exist innately within us, but it's something we need to actualize first. 


> Maybe I just have problems with imagining how to gain missing abilities from another person... The thing is, 8 has no problem with action, but the reasons and motivation behind that are different than five's, so I don't think it would be handy much... Maybe learning to act like some type may help in certain situations, but I just think everybody has to deal with their deepest problems on their own (not alone, but nobody can do that for you).


How exactly are they inherently different to a 5's? 


> Yep, I just think we have different experiences, I guess I probably met some ok eights at some point but I didn't pay much attention. I'm usually very cautious of personality traits and behaviours that I dislike and I avoid people basing on that. It sounds a bit extreme, but it isn't, since I'm not very social anyway and I really regret every time I break the rule and behave to friendly to someone who seems off-putting. Maybe that's why I tend to notice and memorise mainly unpleasant behaviour.


Well, I tend to be willing to give most people a second chance, personally. 



> I think personally I may lack decisiveness and some ability to action, but not hugely. I'm usually able to act very quick when needed, it's when I don't feel pressure I tend to drift away... But I don't like pressure  I think I don't have such problem with assertiveness and accepting my anger as many fives express.


Why would 5s as a whole for instance have troubles with anger? And in this context I take it that you mean assertiveness as asserting your will in say, conflict, and of course 5s would have issues with that being a withdrawn type. It's what makes them withdrawn.



> I wrote it somewhere in thread about soul children... I recognise some of unhealthy eight behaviour in my childhood attitudes, maybe that's why I'm not enthusiastic about them.


I don't think the soul child represents unhealthy 8 behavior for the 5, but rather healthy 5 behavior. This is who we are deep down and strive to be but dare not to be for various reasons. 


> If I was to say who impress me it's rather healthy threes. And super healthy fives, of course. I seriously can't imagine looking at eight and thinking 'I wish I was more like that'.


Why not?


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> @_VamPie_
> 
> I'm considering that you're talking about hierarchy as a structure for society that denotes everyone's place, not just one's own, hence enforcing a structure for social exchange and even regulating through law enforcement somehow dependent on status. So in considering hierarchy, a few questions must be asked.
> 
> ...


I mean hierarchy in more abstract, general sense: 'any system of persons or things ranked one above another'. I think some people tend to see world and society as a hierarchical structure, and others not, or maybe for some people it's more important and more rigid and for others it's just a helpful idea that's not treated very seriously.

You're right that 8 is not the only type who tends to see people hierarchically. 

I guess hierarchy is something instinctive, as social animals have various kinds of hierarchical structure. 

When I look at eights' behaviour (again, the ones I've met) it seems that when they meet someone they to judge is that person weaker than them, equal, stronger, friend or foe. Eights often act impressed when you stand up to them, you can gain their respect that way. But also if you are meek for long time than stand up about something they may be completely shocked. Because it doesn't suit the hierarchy they had in their minds. 
I already wrote is somewhere that this kind of competition may be tiring for a five. We can fight if we have a good reason but it's tiring, while eights seem to draw energy from it. So it's important that 8 knows the 5 isn't a fellow 8. When they don't get it it's frustrating for both sides. But yeah, I can imagine how it works fine when both types are healthy and aware of differences. Also healthier, mature eights have much more distance to that feelings of hierarchy, while less healthy individuals often show funnily serious attitude about it... just like every type has their obsessions that go wrong on low health levels.

I agree with you that eight's sense of hierarchy is individualistic, mainly about 'what is the place of other people in relation to me'.
Other types probably have different approach. As you say, ones are concerned more about social structure and their place in society.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

meridannight said:


> you're right that with 8 at the top it's still a hierarchy. however you are wrong with saying that 8s have a sense of hierarchy. that would be someone like 3, who is concerned with status for status alone. an 8's response to hierarchy is to either get to the top of it so they can be in full control of their life or to opt out of it altogether, again, to be in full control of their life. someone with a sense of hierarchy will want to be in it for the status it brings alone. and that is type 3.
> 
> i myself see hierarchy as necessary to get the job done. especially in corporate environment. you can't just bring in a bunch of people and hope they do what they're there to do or even know what they're supposed to do. especially people on low-paid dead-end jobs. management is necessary. management itself is hierarchical too, for obvious reasons.
> 
> ...


No, I don't mean social hierarchy and practical use of it. What you say it's some organisational hierarchy where there is social agreement about some ranks. I was talking about personal viewpoint. For example, I do judge people but I don't rank them, I either like or dislike them in particular or don't care. When I interact with them it doesn't make a difference what kind of person they appear to be if they're not a friend or foe. But I can see how some people seem to have those personal ranking system and treat people according to it - like alpha, beta and so on.

This is even hard to talk about, using some words trigger reaction in people, which probably is caused partially by type, partially by culture. I guess our culture on the one hand promotes hierarchical system (losers/winners, alpha/beta, main hero/sidekick), on the other points out it can be cruel. But for some people those words cause strong emotional reaction, for some not. I guess people also understand them differently. Like saying somebody is weak, or a winner, or a quitter, stuff like that. I can see how for some people those words really matter, they way they speak of it. For me it's just a feature, not something to determine that person's value or rank.

As I said, I can take any place in a hierarchy if needed, but I prefer to be an outsider whenever I can (of course at work that's rarely possible). Hierarchy doesn't excite me, low rank doesn't humiliate me, high rank doesn't give me a kick - bot h places have their advantages and disadvantages. For a five the worst thing about low rank is probably that when something could be improved you can't do it etc. so rather objective matters than personal ones. I don't even mind if my superior is stupid etc. as long as it doesn't affect me or my work, it is horrible if it does, but not because of personal reasons.
High rank also have an unpleasant side, this is responsibility. For things and people. Having control over myself and things concerning me is great, having control over others is not so fun.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Why not?
> 
> But I think the point behind the concept of integration is that to actualize ourselves, we also accept that attitude towards the world so it does in fact exist innately within us, but it's something we need to actualize first.
> 
> ...


Well, the way I understand enneagram is that every type is different and stays so through all levels of health. Both healthy and unhealthy behaviours, integration and disintegration points are parts of one type. They are 'inside' all the type just one use them or not, and in different levels. The integration/disintegration lines are only symbolic, just as wings, we don't really 'reach out' to other types, it's all contained inside a type.

There is also that theory that as one gets on higher health levels everybody becomes less one type and becomes a 'supertype' like captain Planet, but I don't find it convincing. 

Because the enneagram personalities are based on different motivations. So in fact, even similar behaviour often results from different motivations. Five's aggressive side is not 'borrowed' from eight, and the oblivious side isn't borrowed from seven. They both come from five's core.


LeaT said:


> Well, I tend to be willing to give most people a second chance, personally.



It's not about second chances... I tend to attract people with problems and I learnt that I should avoid certain behaviours to prevent it or at least cut it out early. Also when it comes to guys hitting on me I prefer to be firm in my attitude. I'm not interested in flirting or in friend-zoning. I'm sometimes very tired how some people tend to think that others owe them feelings, any kind - friendship, love, sexual attraction. I mean isn't it something people learn in pre-school age? That feelings can be unrequited? Because your wishes aren't magical? Sorry for off-top. 



LeaT said:


> Why would 5s as a whole for instance have troubles with anger? And in this context I take it that you mean assertiveness as asserting your will in say, conflict, and of course 5s would have issues with that being a withdrawn type. It's what makes them withdrawn.


Well, I saw many fives (or people who consider themselves fives) complaining that they're out of touch with their anger and it affects their assertiveness. I think I have less problems with that than most of them. 


LeaT said:


> I don't think the soul child represents unhealthy 8 behavior for the 5, but rather healthy 5 behavior. This is who we are deep down and strive to be but dare not to be for various reasons.


As I wrote in that soul child thread, I believe that reason is simply growing up.  
Being horrible is only cool in TV (doctor House is so loved, but his fans would hate to have such co-worker).


LeaT said:


> Why not?


Because first of all, they don't seem impressive or fascinating, just like that. Second, they often seem troubled (may be just an impression, for example other types often see fives as troubled, while I don't feel so).
And back to soul child, I used to be more like eight as a child... but I'm no eight. I can't become a high level eight and too eightish behaviour for a five means fail (I believe it's true for any type, we can't just copy each other). I still remember how it feels to overcharge eightiness. :facepalm: Maybe that's why I neither see eight as fascinating nor a solution to five's problems.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

VamPie said:


> For example, *I do judge people but I don't rank them, I either like or dislike them in particular or don't care.* When I interact with them it doesn't make a difference what kind of person they appear to be if they're not a friend or foe. But I can see how some people seem to have those personal ranking system and treat people according to it - like alpha, beta and so on.


that's the same for me. i don't rank people either. i either like them or i don't like them. their status, occupation, societal role, none of that matters to me. when i like a person it doesn't matter who they are, or what they do/have done. i'll like them even if they do something ''bad'', even if they do something i disagree with. neither do i have some internal ranking system that you're talking about. i don't divide my friends into losers, winners, heroes, 'better', 'worse', whatever. that's childish. i don't buy into those labels on the outside and i don't apply that to people i interact with. i'm not in kindergarten.

8s don't rank people the way you seem to be thinking they do. i don't know where you got that impression. 8s are very straightforward and they don't buy into the status or image. who the person is is what matters. 

this is one of the things i've noticed with 5s too, and is one more reason i get along so well with the type. we both see through the BS and projections to the real person.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

VamPie said:


> Well, the way I understand enneagram is that every type is different and stays so through all levels of health. Both healthy and unhealthy behaviours, integration and disintegration points are parts of one type. They are 'inside' all the type just one use them or not, and in different levels. The integration/disintegration lines are only symbolic, just as wings, we don't really 'reach out' to other types, it's all contained inside a type.


I am not sure what you wrote actually disagreed with what I wrote since they seem to be the same thing to me, but thanks for the explanation, I guess?


> There is also that theory that as one gets on higher health levels everybody becomes less one type and becomes a 'supertype' like captain Planet, but I don't find it convincing.


I agree that I don't think that concept is convincing either although I understand the logic behind it. 


> Because the enneagram personalities are based on different motivations. So in fact, even similar behaviour often results from different motivations. Five's aggressive side is not 'borrowed' from eight, and the oblivious side isn't borrowed from seven. They both come from five's core.


Well yes, but the pathology of the type occurs through repression of certain desires. To stop repressing we need to actualize certain aspects of ourselves and when doing so we also embody the healthier traits of the types we're connected to and in this case for type 5 in particular, it's 8.


> It's not about second chances... I tend to attract people with problems and I learnt that I should avoid certain behaviours to prevent it or at least cut it out early. Also when it comes to guys hitting on me I prefer to be firm in my attitude. I'm not interested in flirting or in friend-zoning. I'm sometimes very tired how some people tend to think that others owe them feelings, any kind - friendship, love, sexual attraction. I mean isn't it something people learn in pre-school age? That feelings can be unrequited? Because your wishes aren't magical? Sorry for off-top.


I see. I've never had that problem part because I don't tend to really attract people at all to begin with in that sense. I tend to stick to my own corner and I rarely if ever notice when people hit on me unless they hit me on the head with it and even then I might not notice or realize. 

I don't know, I can't relate to the latter part of your paragraph. That kind of thinking seems pretty foreign to me, personally.


> Well, I saw many fives (or people who consider themselves fives) complaining that they're out of touch with their anger and it affects their assertiveness. I think I have less problems with that than most of them.


Perhaps if 9-fixed. That, or they aren't 5s but say, confused type 9s. I'm quite in touch with my anger. If there's one emotion I'd cite I'm the most in touch with it's anger. Anger makes me feel strong and powerful. 



> As I wrote in that soul child thread, I believe that reason is simply growing up.
> Being horrible is only cool in TV (doctor House is so loved, but his fans would hate to have such co-worker).


Well, obviously in a way, although it really is more a repression of what we think we got in life but didn't get, so we think those parts of ourselves are undesired by others. As for House... Well, he's a fictive character and written to be entertaining so I am not quite sure I see how it applies to real life, although 5s with a strong connection to 8 can be really grumpy.


> Because first of all, they don't seem impressive or fascinating, just like that. Second, they often seem troubled (may be just an impression, for example other types often see fives as troubled, while I don't feel so).


Why must be they appear impressive or fascinating for you to like them? I think the fact they do not appear this way is a part of their appeal to me. 8s just are.



> And back to soul child, I used to be more like eight as a child... but I'm no eight. I can't become a high level eight and too eightish behaviour for a five means fail (I believe it's true for any type, we can't just copy each other). I still remember how it feels to overcharge eightiness. :facepalm: Maybe that's why I neither see eight as fascinating nor a solution to five's problems.


Well again, I don't think integration towards 8 is supposed to mean that you become like an 8. Rather, what you do is that you actualize yourself and what you repress which when fully expressed and developed, will appear 8-like. They are very different things. It's not copying or becoming 8s. Clearly this is not how it works. Rather, it's about realizing your inner potential and how that potential is represented in the type 8.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

VamPie said:


> It's not about second chances... I tend to attract people with problems and I learnt that I should avoid certain behaviours to prevent it or at least cut it out early. Also when it comes to guys hitting on me I prefer to be firm in my attitude. I'm not interested in flirting or in friend-zoning. I'm sometimes very tired how some people tend to think that others owe them feelings, any kind - friendship, love, sexual attraction. I mean isn't it something people learn in pre-school age? That feelings can be unrequited? Because your wishes aren't magical? Sorry for off-top.


You learned that in pre-school? I was stuck in my own head..seriously, couldn't give two shits about other people and what they were thinking or feeling or doing for most of my childhood, even a lot of my adolescence. The external awareness just wasn't there.

What _are_ you interested in from people?


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

meridannight said:


> that's the same for me. i don't rank people either. i either like them or i don't like them. their status, occupation, societal role, none of that matters to me. when i like a person it doesn't matter who they are, or what they do/have done. i'll like them even if they do something ''bad'', even if they do something i disagree with. neither do i have some internal ranking system that you're talking about. i don't divide my friends into losers, winners, heroes, 'better', 'worse', whatever. that's childish. i don't buy into those labels on the outside and i don't apply that to people i interact with. i'm not in kindergarten.
> 
> 8s don't rank people the way you seem to be thinking they do. i don't know where you got that impression. 8s are very straightforward and they don't buy into the status or image. who the person is is what matters.
> 
> this is one of the things i've noticed with 5s too, and is one more reason i get along so well with the type. we both see through the BS and projections to the real person.


Wait, I wrote some things concerning eights and some thing generally about various attitudes hierarchy, I guess it wasn't clear.

What I meant is from what I see (I don't claim all eights do that) it looks like eights are comparing others to themselves and you're either good enough or not good enough, something like that. Because I often had that impression that after showing my strong side I gained some kind of acceptance from those eights, like I jumped to different category. And also I saw them treating people differently. May be a false impression, because there is also outside hierarchy that culture teach us, and that might affected them.


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

Flatliner said:


> You learned that in pre-school? I was stuck in my own head..seriously, couldn't give two shits about other people and what they were thinking or feeling or doing for most of my childhood, even a lot of my adolescence. The external awareness just wasn't there.
> 
> What _are_ you interested in from people?


That's about the age when people learn how they don't affect the world as much as they thought as very young children, right? Usually also learning some basic peer interaction and deeper empathy. I think.


Wow, that's a hard question.  I don't know how to answer...


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## VamPie (Dec 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I am not sure what you wrote actually disagreed with what I wrote since they seem to be the same thing to me, but thanks for the explanation, I guess?
> 
> I agree that I don't think that concept is convincing either although I understand the logic behind it.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure, because you seem to agree with on that point, but you seemed to be interested why I don't think interacting with type 8 people has much to do with integrating as a five. That's why - I think those things aren't related.

Well, I think I know both ends of that problem - sometimes people I like aren't interested in me. That's when I respect their decisions, and I expect similar attitude from others, but it doesn't always happen.

Yep, I'm in touch with my anger, too, and I can express it. Also, I rather feel controlling anger is harder (though not a real problem) than expressing it and I can't really understand when people describe it as very difficult.

I don't even watch that show and I'm not a fan of such entertainment - I noticed there is a whole kind of fictional characters, comedians etc. who are really not so much funny or cool (at least for me) as rather representing repressed desires of fans. Those people sometimes are pretty unrealistic with their admiration, because living with somebody as mean as their idols would be horrible. Also, it doesn't require any talent or skill to be rude or mean. It just requires ignoring other people's feelings.

A five doesn't even has to be very grumpy, a lot of stuff are interpreted more negatively than we intend. That's the difference between real life and fiction. Also, in order for a person to be tolerated despite being unpleasant in some ways, is to be pleasant in other ways, and it requires a lot of personal charm. 
What I meant, as we grow up we see how some things work irl, socially and we change our attitudes. That's why some of behaviours must go, it's just maturing. Learning how world works. I'd say some of my behaviours as a child were more assertive or even aggressive and would somewhat suit that soul child idea, but that doesn't mean those things were good, they were just ignorant or selfish. I don't believe that children are utterly good and growing up ruins us mentally, I rather support the idea that children lack a lot of stuff and we have to learn them to grow up. 

I've never said that they must be fascinating or impressive to like them, I said I find know reason to want to be like them, as you say they - just are. I wouldn't like to be any other type, but if I was to call some types or features that seem attractive I'd say threes and sevens seem particularly interesting to me, especially they seem charming and I think more personal charm would make some use.

Yep, I meant we can't copy them and that's why learning from people of other types doesn't seem convincing to me.

I think this discussion is sometimes losing the track.


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## meridannight (Nov 23, 2012)

VamPie said:


> What I meant is from what I see (I don't claim all eights do that) it looks like eights are comparing others to themselves and you're either good enough or not good enough, something like that. Because I often had that impression that after showing my strong side I gained some kind of acceptance from those eights, like I jumped to different category. And also I saw them treating people differently. May be a false impression, because there is also outside hierarchy that culture teach us, and that might affected them.


everybody compares people to a larger or lesser degree. 

i don't really know that i compare others to myself though. unless i'm romantically interested in them. then i naturally take notice of how their viewpoints, tastes, values fit in relation to mine.

good enough or not good enough, yeah you probably have some point there. however this good enough thing is highly subjective. and i wouldn't use word 'good' (pointless word), i would say agreeable or disagreeable. i have an internal system of what kind of people i like (we all do). however it is not absolute. sometimes people that fit that picture in theory i can't get along with at all; and other times i meet someone i don't think i will like and we end up connecting really well. so, ultimately it comes down to the person. my so-called system is more a rough draft than law.

i would put it this way – if i like a person (and this is always a physical reaction) they already are 'good enough' for me. they don't need to prove something, or match some arbitrary rules/qualities in order to be good enough. 

sometimes, though it doesn't happen often, people have jumped 'categories' the way you put it. i do understand what you mean now. it's only happened in one direction, from 'disagreeable' to 'not as bad as i thought'. sometimes i meet a person and they're disagreeable to me at first. i have a gut reaction to a lot of people. i can like and dislike from first sight without knowing anything about that person. a couple of times i've turned more agreeable toward a person when i've seen them in a more human light. however, i've never experienced full reversal of it. i can mellow out toward someone sometimes, but i've never gone from strong dislike to even moderate like. it has gone from strong dislike to fine-we-can-coexist. 

it's not a hierarchical thing though. it's a gut reaction (in my case). there are no ranks, no descriptions a person has to fit into, there are only two boxes: 'i like you' and 'i don't like you'/'i don't care'. and i don't know in which box a person is until i meet them. i can have these ideas in my head of what kind of a person i find likable, but my dislikes and likes are always physically based. i don't control them in principle at all.


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