# How Does Mental Illness Affect Typology?



## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

Apologies if this thread has already been made before. My general questions are as follows:

(1) Does mental illness mask one's basal personality type?
(2) Is it instead that certain mental illnesses are relatively exclusive to certain types?
(3) How does one discern the difference between mental illness and the unhealthy descriptors for Enneagram types?

Answers addressing how these questions relate to the presence of Borderline Personality Disorder, psychosis, and alcohol abuse are of particular interest to me.

Thank you.


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## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Clyme said:


> (1) Does mental illness mask one's basal personality type?


I think it can do, yeah. I also think trauma can skew perceptions of ourselves and cause us to act differently to our normal "default" state. 

I'm a core 6w7 but I went through a period of seriously considering type 4 because I was struggling with trauma-related issues (as well as mild depression). Similarly, someone suffering with severe PTSD may display behavioural symptoms that can look like traits that are often attributed to certain types (which is why understanding type motivation is very important). 

I struggled a little with alcoholism (Self-medicating) when trying to manage my own PTSD related symptoms and a lot of people were typing me at 7 back then (possibly because of the "carefree hedonist" type 7 stereotype). It was only when I managed to overcome this, as well as other symptoms, that I was finally able to see my core type more clearly.



> (2) Is it instead that certain mental illnesses are relatively exclusive to certain types?


I don't think so. I know that Naranjo tried to link certain disorders with Enneagram types but I personally don't buy into this. Mental illness and disorders are separate from Enneatype. 



> (3) How does one discern the difference between mental illness and the unhealthy descriptors for Enneagram types?


That's a difficult one (I struggled with this in the past).

For me, it was essential to separate unhealthy behaviours related to mental illness from my "normal" functioning. This wasn't easy because I have been suffering with mental illness most of my adult life (and, after a while, it's almost as if it becomes a part of who you are).

I think, gaining a deeper and more holistic understanding of Enneagram helped me see that the patterns it tries to map are different from pathological disorders. Any type, for example, can suffer from anxiety, PTSD, bipolar, BPD, etc.


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## bruh (Oct 27, 2015)

I've read somewhere of a poll that has to do with mental illness and type, I just don't remember where it was.


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## Flaming Bassoon (Feb 15, 2013)

It can definitely cause mistyping. I have depression that's currently treated, but when it wasn't treated I thought I was – wait for it – a four. 

In my family there is _heavy _alcoholism on my dad's side, and even a couple on my mom's, so I know that that family history combined with my own mental illnesses and my 7ness/addictive personality that I need to avoid alcohol use until I'm 21, and even then, only use it sparingly. (And I'm a _college kid _in _Wisconsin_, one of the heaviest drinking states.)


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Firstly, it would probably be helpful to spell out an important similarity that mental illness and enneagram type have in common, which is that they are both classifications and not concrete "things." Most DSM disorders also have spectra that measure how strongly or intensely someone fits the classification of a disorder. 

An enneagram type is not by definition a disorder, but a focus of attention. I tend to believe enneagram types are adaptive habits to be understood and managed as needed when they become too rigid, not inherent "problems" to be fixed or tied to disorders (as thinks Naranjo). There is no anomaly from the general public in having any given enneagram type, nor should simply having an enneagram type impair everyday activity or cause debilitating suffering. "Suffering" as referenced by the enneagram is different, and arises when someone fixates too heavily on their type and they cannot adequately deal with everyday issues using only the input of that type. While this could exacerbate issues caused by an existing disorder, it wouldn't be one in the same with it. 

Further, while the degree to which a person is fixated within the ego processes of their type can vary significantly and possibly to the extreme at which a clinical diagnosis could be made for a DSM disorder at that given point, consistency of clinical suffering is a key factor in diagnosing a lot of DSM disorders. Most people of a given enneatype with long term debilitating issues will stand out from others of that enneatype as well as the general population because the extremity of the illness will be consistent over a long span of time. People can "disintegrate" or move to lower "levels of health" within a given type, but again, there will probably be a situational factor causing it.


I see a lot of people who suffer from clinical depression type as 4's, whereas strategy of envy is the primary hallmark of 4, not depression.


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## ctrlfeelings (Feb 5, 2016)

Clyme said:


> Apologies if this thread has already been made before. My general questions are as follows:
> 
> (1) Does mental illness mask one's basal personality type?
> (2) Is it instead that certain mental illnesses are relatively exclusive to certain types?
> ...


You are asking for a bridge between Freudian and Jungian. It's equivalent of the relationship between Newtonian Physics and Relativity.
Freduian Psychology is discrete, with different Personality Disorders and their clinical study. Jungian psychology is continuous, taking everything into account, and rather than creating exceptions it includes those exceptions into a single all encompassing theory.
There are no disorders in Jungian theory. Nothing is an exception and everything has a logical explanation.

Take the INTJ type for example. Freud/Vaknin would call it Malignant Narcissism.
Similarly ISTJ is Dependent Personality, ESTJ is Borderline, ESFP would end up with Histrionic label and so on.

If you take the extreme versions of the MBTI types you get the clinical personality disorders as described by Freud.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Clyme said:


> Apologies if this thread has already been made before. My general questions are as follows:
> 
> (1) Does mental illness mask one's basal personality type?


... I have mixed thoughts and feeling to what qualifies as mental illness. It exists. I also feel that people WANT a diagnosis because it is more convenient to be mentally ill than to admit to living a dysfunctional life. Sometimes emotional extremities and breaks are logical consequence of a perfectly functional brain trying to make you very conscious of something. Living a dysfunction life can cause a mental illness and one that is perhaps permanent. 

I'm willing to up the ante that prolonged mental illness capable of changing the actual neurological and hormonal structure of the brain which might not only mask personality but permanently change personality as well. When I was at my low I lived life like an ISTJ who did ... well, absolutely nothing and hated every moment of it. Enneagram wise my bouts only articulated my tritype. My heart and body fixes especially because I don't notice them in daily life when I'm well. I've also become more aware of my Te. 



> (2) Is it instead that certain mental illnesses are relatively exclusive to certain types?


Possible. Yes. 

Certain populations are more prone to certain diseases and not others because they share a certain gene and a certain acclimatization to the environment. Genetics and immunology. I see no reason why this wouldn't be true for personalities. Also it might be the case that certain conditions are more disruptive and a bigger nuisance to some personalities more so than others.

I could see extroverts feeling more crippled by social anxiety than introverts. For introverts it might be a mere annoyance because it hardly interferes with their lives.



> (3) How does one discern the difference between mental illness and the unhealthy descriptors for Enneagram types?


You don't. Because enneagram is a study of defence mechanisms and their interrelations. Unhealthy descriptors is how illness, stress, frustration and inauthenticity first begins to manifest itself. Yeah ... I actually consider inauthenticity a means to pathology.



> Answers addressing how these questions relate to the presence of Borderline Personality Disorder, psychosis, and alcohol abuse are of particular interest to me.
> 
> Thank you.


... my thought is that all conditions start as being expressed THROUGH personality. I, as ENFP-7, might gravitate to different symptoms of the same disease than say ... an ISFJ-1. They're still the same collection of symptoms [or selection from a list of symptoms]. The difference is they may appear in different proportions and at different intensities. That said ... I still continue to feel that prolonged illness can change personality, permanently.

A curious aside, I read of cases where a stroke changes a person's sexual orientation even. We know so little and conjecture so much.

[AFTERTHOUGHT!]

.. what I do think is dangerous is that people rationalize their conditions with personality. Or they deny their conditions on the same grounds. For example, ENFPs are not immune to depression. Lack of empathy is not an NT trait ... now, I might question and criticize how things are treated. And I might question if things get diagnosed correctly. Also, I have written about my horrible experiences with counselling and how I felt it was very detrimental to my life. But that was in another topic/thread.

If you got a genuine condition or just need to work things out in life, talk to someone. Don't use personality as an excuse.


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## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

In short, it seems to me that personality complications arise when one is embracing the incorrect growth path, and also, the denying a part that would allow one to grow. Sometimes, the hardest thing to confront, is yourself.


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## Gman1 (Mar 3, 2015)

I deliberately searched for a thread like this just to make this post.
Was in a mental hospital for several months, and I introduced MBTI to 6 other patients. 
2 people with Bipolar Disorder both typed as ENFP. 2 people with severe depression typed as ESFJ and ISFJ. 1 girl with Borderline Personality Disorder typed as ISFP. 1 guy with Schizophrenia typed as INTP.
In addition, there was 1 girl whom I'm convinced has Narcissistic Personality Disorder who typed as ENTJ.

The only result I disagreed with was 1 bipolar patient whom I felt was actually ENTP.

So on the whole, I'd say mental illness still doesn't affect the outcome of the test (at least when you answer it without thinking too much).


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Haha you sound a lot like me...

i will update this later with response to your questions.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Clyme said:


> Apologies if this thread has already been made before. My general questions are as follows:
> 
> (1) Does mental illness mask one's basal personality type?


I don't think it "masks" it. If anything, it probably brings it more to light. It can however, lead to you acting in ways that confirm a type that you are clearly not. That is confusing to understand but, allow me to elaborate. Everyone has parts of themselves that identifies with each of the enneagram types. Mental illness may cause you to become hyper-vigilant or distrustful that others cant _see_ you (probably not just an E4 issue) causing you to disown those very real parts of you - and then people see that you are denying something that to them is very clearly there and so it becomes stronger than it actually is. I have had a moment on here where people saw type 3 in me, still pisses me off to this day. I can't connect with that type at all.

So in summary, I don't think it can mask your actual type, it just clouds people's perception of you. Hope that makes sense. 



> (2) Is it instead that certain mental illnesses are relatively exclusive to certain types?


I don't think it's so much that only type 3 will have mental illnesses A, B and C - more so that _your type makes you more likely to suffer from certain mental illnesses_. 



> (3) How does one discern the difference between mental illness and the unhealthy descriptors for Enneagram types?


This is where my indignation comes in towards those who find the "neurotic" approach too well, neurotic. Or "negative." I mean the whole of modern psychology seems like a reaction to Psychoanalysis. It's actually baffling to me. It tells me people don't really understand it. I have begun to observe that everyone has certain maladaptive tendencies that will probably get magnified if you put them under the right stress. 

Take the example of my brother, who has a strong 3 influence. He goes on a rant about how unfair everything is, and how he will never "win" again and his life is ruined basically, because of one failure in something that means a lot to him. Obviously, not everyone reacts this way to failure. It's his type 3's ugly side rearing it's head. Ugly as in painful and scary to deal with. If he experienced chronic failure, his entire personality structure would crumble and he would fall into deep depression. Most people don't experience this. Most people also don't end up having to ask themselves the life's ultimate questions - what really is my worth? What is really meaningful if not the things I thought that were? - because that is scary and painful. But that is precisely what the shadow, or neurosis aspect means to me. It takes you into that dark abyss we all have and need to tackle in order to become more whole. 

I don't think there's any human being who doesn't have this shadow aspect to him, and to disown it would be quite ridiculous. Of course people aren't all "unhealthy" but _they have the tendency to be_, which points to just how deep their fixation goes. People should acknowledge this and incorporate it into their idea of who they are.



> Answers addressing how these questions relate to the presence of Borderline Personality Disorder, psychosis, and alcohol abuse are of particular interest to me.
> 
> Thank you.


I have BPD and have been interested in Psychology very much for the same reasons as you, it seems. Feel free to talk to me about it if you want.


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