# Where did the "I'm nice but why won't girls choose me over......" come from?



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

*Where did the "I'm nice but why won't girls choose me over......" come from?*

It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as 

I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?

Sounds like they have "I am owed to have girls with the whole package attracted to me" problem. Where did this come from?


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as
> 
> I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
> I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?
> ...


On a personal level, I find myself agreeing with you on the basis of how pathetic these kinds of statements often sound. I was, at one point, quite on board with condemning the sorts of people who say these things, but several years ago I read an in-depth analysis of the general issue, and it changed my mind.

Radicalizing The Romanceless

If a massive essay post isn't your thing, I'll include a few choice excerpts.



Scott Alexander said:


> "I recently had a patient, a black guy from the worst part of Detroit, let’s call him Dan, who was telling me of his woes. He came from a really crappy family with a lot of problems, but he was trying really hard to make good. He was working two full-time minimum wage jobs, living off cheap noodles so he could save some money in the bank, trying to scrape a little bit of cash together. Unfortunately, he’d had a breakdown (see: him being in a psychiatric hospital), he was probably going to lose his jobs, and everything was coming tumbling down around him.
> 
> And he was getting a little philosophical about it, and he asked – I’m paraphrasing here – why haven’t things worked out for me? I’m hard-working, I’ve never missed a day of work until now, I’ve always given a hundred and ten percent. And meanwhile, I see all these rich white guys (“no offense, doctor,” he added, clearly overestimating the salary of a medical resident) who kind of coast through school, coast into college, end up with 9 – 4 desk jobs working for a friend of their father’s with excellent salaries and benefits, and if they need to miss a couple of days of work, whether it’s for a hospitalization or just to go on a cruise, nobody questions it one way or the other. I’m a harder worker than they are, he said – and I believed him – so how is that fair?"


So while talk of being a "nice guy" puts me off on a personal level, I acknowledge that this sort of argument does have some precedent for use in reasonable ways. The author of the above quote continues by describing another of his patients, Henry (not his real name), who was married five times and physically abused all of his wives. Using this example, he describes what "I'm a nice guy but why won't girls choose me over..." actually means:



Scott Alexander said:


> There seems to be some confusion about [what "I'm a nice guy but why won't girls choose me over..." means], so let me explain what it means, to everyone, for all time.
> 
> It does not mean “I am nice in some important cosmic sense, therefore I am entitled to sex with whomever I want.”
> 
> ...


Returning to his previous example, the author finishes by detailing what he sees (and what I agree) to be the appropriate attitude to take.



Scott Alexander said:


> My patient – not Henry, the one I started this whole thing off with, the one who works two minimum wage jobs and wants to know why he’s still falling behind when everyone else does so well – he wasn’t listed as a danger to himself or others, so he had the right to leave the hospital voluntarily if he wanted to. And he did, less than two days after he came in, before we’d even managed to finalize a treatment plan for him. He was worried that his boss was going to fire him if he stayed in longer.
> 
> I didn’t get a chance to give him any medication – not that it would have helped that much. All I got a chance to do was to tell him I respected his situation, that he was in a really sucky position, that it wasn’t his fault, and that I hoped he did better. I’m sure my saying that had minimal effect on him. But maybe a history of getting to hear that message from all different people – friends, family, doctors, social workers, TV, church, whatever – all through his life – gave him enough mental fortitude to go back to his horrible jobs and keep working away in the hopes that things would get better. Instead of killing himself or turning to a life of crime or joining the latest kill-the-rich demagogue movement or whatever.
> 
> In the end what he wanted wasn’t entitlement to other people’s money, or a pity job from someone who secretly didn’t like him. All he needed to keep going was to have people acknowledge there was a problem and treat him like a frickin’ human being.


*I will never be particularly impressed by "nice guys" who bemoan their lack of relationship success*, but my lack of respect for their position doesn't remove my capacity for sympathy. Loneliness is a state of being which, similar to personal wealth, is all too often completely outside of one's control. *I don't have to respect "nice guys", but I'm not about to insult them for daring to be lonely*. That kind of response only serves to push lonely people deeper into their misery; I struggle to find any instance in which that's okay to do.

Or, to put it into another perspective, if lonely, single guys are scum for even daring to complain about being lonely (having earned their misery), maybe it's also okay to say that fat women suffering from anxiety disorders don't deserve love either and that the pain they feel is justified. My guess is that neither of these things are okay, and that telling sad people that they deserve to suffer or that they're just being entitled losers is the height of cruelty. When you're unreasonably cruel to people who already feel like crap, you don't create well adjusted people, you create bullies who might've otherwise been nice people had they been shown some basic human decency.


----------



## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't know, it's kind of ensnared in gender norms a bit, isn't it?

It almost appears kind of complicated, and I think it's more then anything based on the kind of person that is stereotypically associated with saying or blaming things on things like "being a nice guy" there seems to be this arrogant assertion that if you even fathomed this, then you do not understand life or reality in some way, when it's more simple then such a complex generalization.


----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as
> 
> I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
> I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?
> ...


Some women are stupid and always pick assholes so this makes sense. Sometimes women choose someone they know are going to cheat on them and so this makes sense. Sometimes women constantly pick guys they say are annoying to other guy friend and this makes sense. If you are comparing and the woman keeps picking people who suck and hurt them it makes sense to wonder why they dont just pick a decent guy.

I had a best friend who kept going after guys who were clearly players and had women falling all over them and would not commit and than came back and asked me "Why is he being like this". At first I tried to stay out of it and be vague as not to throw this obvious jerk under the bus since I was friends with both of them. Eventually I explained "He is a player" and listed all the reason why. They tried to rationalize why that could not be the case, and this trend continued as they hopped from guy to guy to guy. They never changed but in the end they stopped going for guys they felt they could depend on and went for guys that would depend on her and took the more dominant role. I told her everything wrong with the guys she was dating but she always try to say "No I swear this ones better than the last one!" and it always ended badly. Like she never saw the signs, like she was not a stupid girl but she had such horrible judgement in men. 

I had someone leave me for a person that was clearly more interested in our other friend, was already showing signs of being neglectful of other feeling and would not be a loyal partner, and they knew if they dated this person they were going to probobly cheat on them, and kept saying rationally I was the better option. All of this stuff that we agreed would happen if they chose the other person instead of me happened, they got screwed over, everyone got screwed over and they were right I was the better option, but they chose that idiot anyways. Why I still cant figure it out. 

Does that mean they are owed anything? No? but why are people so stupid?

In this case I could understand "Why did you not pick this person over this person" and it does not mean the person they should be is you, they could be overlooking other obvious matches while they are jumping into abusive relationships over and over.


----------



## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

MisterPerfect said:


> Some women are stupid and always pick assholes so this makes sense. Sometimes women choose someone they know are going to cheat on them and so this makes sense. Sometimes women constantly pick guys they say are annoying to other guy friend and this makes sense. If you are comparing and the woman keeps picking people who suck and hurt them it makes sense to wonder why they dont just pick a decent guy.


If they were "nice guys", wouldn't they accept the woman's choice?


----------



## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Also, I don't get why this is considered such a negative or wrong thing to say, yet it seems to many right now, the feminism is "bad"

Okay


----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Wisteria said:


> If they were "nice guys", wouldn't they accept the woman's choice?


I guess you can just be like "Sure you are doing a good job" when they keep choosing abusive guys and come home crying "Why is he such an ass". Its just like "You did not know he was HOW?" Even from a friend stand point do you have any idea how irritating this is to watch?


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

Wisteria said:


> If they were "nice guys", wouldn't they accept the woman's choice?


You're exactly right, and I think many of them do. That being said, this doesn't insulate them from pain. Acknowledging the choices of women doesn't preclude suffering because of them. I think that lonely people have a right to feel pain and to seek comfort and sympathy for that pain, and I think acknowledging that pain as legitimate is a fairly attractive option given how little it costs.


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

(A) I guess I could not fathom it from a bias female perspective (via) high-functioning mating success pace the male gender for just occupying a vagina - in fact, I could drop everything + have some random male here ready to bang // offer a relationship in a matter of a few minute(s) - should my standard(s) plummet extremely low (via) beyond basic self-respect.

However, I can say the phenomena exist(s) on the ''opposite'' spectrum as well - most male(s) my age adore + like crazy / wild + fun messed up female(s) - I'm 5w6 - INTJ so while I do not think I am boring, compared to the average (female) specimen I am boring as shit & at the bottom of list - if not for my look(s), I doubt ex; (A) would possible for me + would be on the spectrum (via) ''lonely nice guys'' - 

I hated male(s) for quite some time when in my teens - still hold low-functioning resentment toward(s) them, more so a_ throbbing _annoyance rather than jealousy / envy - for their poor choice (via) female(s), but there is nothing I can do about it; they live with their choice(s) + deplorable selection(s). I understand masculine + boring female personalities are not top (via) the ''mating list''. You can objectively observe the poor mating selector. No one want(s) a domineering smart female - they are bottom of the list for female(s); but not overall - my age group want feminine ditzy female(s) with crazy, adventurous personalities as a general consensus.

I first hand experienced the 'nice guy' complaint _phenomena_ (via) the LGBT community as well - I did not believe it until I started dating female(s) & there surely is the 'optimal' female that most are drawn to - especially other fem's - but it is just my personality perhap(s); intelligence + other important thing(s) are not high on the list (via) mating selection - that is more suitable + work(s) better with matured 30 year old waiting to settle. This is why most INTJ date // relationship late.


----------



## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)




----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

DanielHPong said:


> You're exactly right, and I think many of them do. That being said, this doesn't insulate them from pain. Acknowledging the choices of women doesn't preclude suffering because of them. I think that lonely people have a right to feel pain and to seek comfort and sympathy for that pain, and I think acknowledging that pain as legitimate is a fairly attractive option given how little it costs.


I guess none of you care at all about your friends and their well being. So if you had a friend dating a man that beating her everyday you would just smile and say "Good job honey im proud of you" or would you be kind of irritated that they are letting someone hurt them? I dont think Enabling it is necessarily the best thing in these type of situation. Especially when you are the one they are whining too.


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

MisterPerfect said:


> I guess you can just be like "Sure you are doing a good job" when they keep choosing abusive guys and come home crying "Why is he such an ass". Its just like "You did not know he was HOW?" Even from a friend stand point do you have any idea how irritating this is to watch?


Honestly, it probably sucks more to experience than for you to watch from just about any stand point. Suffering doesn't require justification to be legitimate. People who pick bad partners suffer for choices that they thought were the best at the time; I fail to see how that is at all reprehensible or deserving of scorn. You need not respect their competence, but this has nothing at all to do with the reality of their situation.


----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

DanielHPong said:


> Honestly, it probably sucks more to experience than for you to watch from just about any stand point. Suffering doesn't require justification to be legitimate. People who pick bad partners suffer for choices that they thought were the best at the time; I fail to see how that is at all reprehensible or deserving of scorn. You need not respect their competence, but this has nothing at all to do with the reality of their situation.


So in other words you dont care at all about the suffering of your friends or loved ones? Nice that we established that. Good job! When your friends get involved with drugs, have anorexia or are walking around with sunglasses since they are getting daily beatings we will know the people like you will do absolutely nothing and feel nothing. Since that is so what it means to be a FRIEND! Nice MESSAGE! Lets make a movie about it. I sure that will make a better world.

What you are saying is "I see you are suffering but you made that choice and since you made a bad decision I no longer care about you and I will let you suffer". I know you think that makes you a nice person but it just makes you a negligent friend. Even if you dont intervene you could at least give a damn. I mean my god how callus can you possibly be. I dont see why people have this attitude of not giving a fuck about anyone besides themselves makes them a good friend.


----------



## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Wisteria said:


> If they were "nice guys", wouldn't they accept the woman's choice?


Well, I don't think it's that they don't "accept" it, but I think it's because they generally like them and are just upset or heartbroken that they would not even give them a chance.

We live in a culture that places a great deal on "romance" and "love" and whatever that supposed to be exactly, so if you really liked someone, you should really just move on and accept that the fact that there are always "more fish in the sea" ?

It's kind of depressing; but either that, or people should just drop all this "love" and "soul-mate" shit.

I think both sexes do this, though. But I guess the problem here is that they outwardly equate it to them being "nice" when it isn't always necessarily the case, but I believe it is slightly wrapped up in gender norms and exceptions for how men are supposed to act or behave. 

But blah, cultural norms and expectations, rue the day it would appear as always.

But this whole thing almost seems high-school-esque to me, when you really don't have very much of a large dating market, or access to the dating market as much, yet.


----------



## TheJ (Aug 3, 2015)

The way I see it-
The problem comes from the view that desirability to others is an indication of an objective sort of value. We compare ourselves with others which we see not as good as us (by any criteria we use to judge other people's value), and think it's not fair that we (being more valuable) don't get the same kind of recognition of our value as them. (recognition in the form of relationship/attractiveness/desirabilty)
But people have different standards of what value is. They don't follow the same "rules" we do in our own judgements, they have their own. Not only that but without proving your "value" to others, you won't receive recognition for it.

A quote I like by Dennis Wholey- “Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you’re a good person is like expecting a bull not to attack you because you’re a vegetarian.” 
The bull doesn't know or care you're a vegetarian. Your values and intentions are meaningless to it. It lacks the ability to comprehend them. And similarly, you can't expect "the world" to understand your own idea of value and your values in general when to each person there's a different idea of what value is, and different values they base themselves on. And you can't tell them they are wrong without placing your values over theirs. An understanding of the unfairness of that in all people could create a far more level headed society.

Sorry, went a bit off topic, but hope that kinda answers your question.


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

MisterPerfect said:


> I guess none of you care at all about your friends and their well being. So if you had a friend dating a man that beating her everyday you would just smile and say "Good job honey im proud of you" or would you be kind of irritated that they are letting someone hurt them? I dont think Enabling it is necessarily the best thing in these type of situation. Especially when you are the one they are whining too.


You mistake my point. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to help people if we think that they are making decisions which cause them suffering.

I am saying that there are two ways of doing this.

You can tell people that they were idiots and that they deserved their pain because of their stupid decisions, but then you yourself would hardly be deserving of any sympathy the next time you suffered for a decision which someone else thought was stupid. Advice given under these kinds of conditions would hardly be welcome; reducing someone to an inconsolable mess is hardly condusive to improving their decision making.

Or you can acknowledge the other persons suffering and offer them advice without being unessecarily cruel. There's a reason that psychiatrists don't go around telling depressed patients to "man up" and stop being so sad all the time: it doesn't help.


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

MisterPerfect said:


> So in other words you dont care at all about the suffering of your friends or loved ones? Nice that we established that. Good job! When your friends get involved with drugs, have anorexia or are walking around with sunglasses since they are getting daily beatings we will know the people like you will do absolutely nothing and feel nothing. Since that is so what it means to be a FRIEND! Nice MESSAGE! Lets make a movie about it. I sure that will make a better world.


There's no need to be intentionally derisive and invidious. I don't think I've said anything suggesting the above, and it's disconcerting to me that you would automatically assume the worst of me. I like to think that I've held your points in good faith without assuming malice on your part; I hope you would extend me the same courtesy.


----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

TheJ said:


> The way I see it-
> The problem comes from the view that desirability to others is an indication of an objective sort of value. We compare ourselves with others which we see not as good as us (by any criteria we use to judge other people's value), and think it's not fair that we (being more valuable) don't get the same kind of recognition of our value as them. (recognition in the form of relationship/attractiveness/desirabilty)
> But people have different standards of what value is. They don't follow the same "rules" we do in our own judgements, they have their own. Not only that but without proving your "value" to others, you won't receive recognition for it.
> 
> ...


You speak much truth BluJay


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

TheJ said:


> The way I see it-
> The problem comes from the view that desirability to others is an indication of an objective sort of value. We compare ourselves with others which we see not as good as us (by any criteria we use to judge other people's value), and think it's not fair that we (being more valuable) don't get the same kind of recognition of our value as them. (recognition in the form of relationship/attractiveness/desirabilty)
> But people have different standards of what value is. They don't follow the same "rules" we do in our own judgements, they have their own. Not only that but without proving your "value" to others, you won't receive recognition for it.
> 
> ...


You're totally right.

However, if a vegetarian gets trampled by a bull tomorrow because he thought his vegetarianism would protect him, I'm not about to tell him he's the biggest idiot alive and that he deserved every iota of pain. I think it's reasonably well established that people who feel crushingly depressed don't actually take to advice very well. Beyond that, the fact that he made a bad decision doesn't take away his leg pain. If he's struggling to get home after having been gored, I'm still going to help him walk; the fact that he made a bad desision doesn't mean I should pattern match my derision to his suffering.


----------



## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

TheJ said:


> The way I see it-
> The problem comes from the view that desirability to others is an indication of an objective sort of value. We compare ourselves with others which we see not as good as us (by any criteria we use to judge other people's value), and think it's not fair that we (being more valuable) don't get the same kind of recognition of our value as them. (recognition in the form of relationship/attractiveness/desirabilty)
> But people have different standards of what value is. They don't follow the same "rules" we do in our own judgements, they have their own. Not only that but without proving your "value" to others, you won't receive recognition for it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but it's not just value is it? it's like sexual attraction, LOL.

The thinking brain doesn't always come that much into play.

Oh, but some women do have a tendency to like "bad men" and you know, are attracted to the "dark-triads" and all of that stuff. (or so they say)

Loki.

Yes, you all can save him. You can all save Loki. He does what he wants, and he's so dastardly, and mischievous.


----------



## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Part of the problem in this comes from people who end up crushing on people who are "nice" or "kind" to them, so they expect everyone to have the same motivations.


----------



## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

He's a noice goy


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

Prada said:


> This is nothing else but playing the victim card and no one but abusers are into victims. People saying that should stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something about their situation. Not once did I hear someone say it and it being actually true with no buts. It's usually "I'm a nice guy/girl but I don't talk to people I like, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but I'm totally lame everything is wrong with me and only a fool would date me, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but the other person has to read my mind and make a move on me, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but I'm too good for everyone but my ideal mate..." you know the drill.
> 
> People who know are good enough for a relationship and know what they can offer attract others. But they also need to be confident and engage in social activities and ACTUALLY be nice. Calling yourself nice and being nice are not the same thing.
> 
> ...


Is it so hard to acknowledge that a certain group of lonely people might actually suffer for their loneliness? I'm not saying that the world owes them anything, but at what point does that become a licence to tell sad people that they're suffering is deserved and that unless the grow a spine and improve their pain is totally justified? Would you tell that to someone with serious anorexia and expect it to work? Depressed people don't magically become healthy when subjected to unnecessary cruelty; there are kinder ways to offer someone help which are more likely to work. Any psychiatrist knows this: people in the grips of depression simply don't take advice very well.

I happen to agree that in all cases, we should strive to be as strong and ready to improve as we possibly can. It would be great if every human were able to always maintain this positive outlook and see their situation as an opportunity to make their life (and themselves) better. Unfortunately, that's not the position that people who suffer are in. When someone opens up about their pain, mocking that pain with scorn only serves to marginalize and radicalize them.

I don't think this means that we have to make a special effort to date "nice guys". I just think that when single guys open up about being depressed and lonely, they are just as deserving of comfort as anyone else who feels pain. It doesn't matter if they got to where they are through decisions which you think are stupid; you can't blame them for feeling pain as a result of decisions which they were convinced were the best at the time. I don't care how someone managed to hurt themself; accusing them of being liars out to play the victim card isn't a good strategy.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

DanielHPong said:


> Is it so hard to acknowledge that a certain group of lonely people might actually suffer for their loneliness? I'm not saying that the world owes them anything, but at what point does that become a licence to tell sad people that they're suffering is deserved and that unless the grow a spine and improve their pain is totally justified? Would you tell that to someone with serious anorexia and expect it to work? Depressed people don't magically become healthy when subjected to unnecessary cruelty; there are kinder ways to offer someone help which are more likely to work. Any psychiatrist knows this: people in the grips of depression simply don't take advice very well.
> 
> I happen to agree that in all cases, we should strive to be as strong and ready to improve as we possibly can. It would be great if every human were able to always maintain this positive outlook and see their situation as an opportunity to make their life (and themselves) better. Unfortunately, that's not the position that people who suffer are in. When someone opens up about their pain, mocking that pain with scorn only serves to marginalize and radicalize them.
> 
> I don't think this means that we have to make a special effort to date "nice guys". I just think that when single guys open up about being depressed and lonely, they are just as deserving of comfort as anyone else who feels pain. It doesn't matter if they got to where they are through decisions which you think are stupid; you can't blame them for feeling pain as a result of decisions which they were convinced were the best at the time. I don't care how someone managed to hurt themself; accusing them of being liars out to play the victim card isn't a good strategy.


It is not a strategy, but a reality for some people. It is common to assign the lowest values to those who bother us most.
It is seeded in anger, not in composure.
Watch me as I watch the others.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

From passive aggressive people who, instead of realizing that the entire "alpha" package is a regressive mating strategy (in the wider sociocultural context), do the next "best" thing and resort to more deceptive methods. Then whine about it on MGTOW when it doesn't work.

It doesn't mean a nice human being.


----------



## DanielHPong (Mar 30, 2015)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> It is not a strategy, but a reality for some people. It is common to assign the lowest values to those who bother us most.
> It is seeded in anger, not in composure.
> Watch me as I watch the others.


It takes almost nothing to offer a few words of acknowledgement ("I understand that you are suffering, and I am sorry that this is the case, regardless of why it is happening.") or to just remain silent.

On the other hand, being aggressively cruel to people who are already suffering seems like an extremely costly trade. I seriously doubt anyone would tell an anorexic person to "quit whining all the time" just because their complaints were a little unsightly to witness. The cost to that person is almost laughably huge compared to whatever minor satisfaction you might get from saying that.

I don't have a lot of respect for "nice guys", but being needlessly cruel to them seems pretty unjustified no matter what system of ethics you're playing by.


----------



## idunnolol (Apr 8, 2016)

Essentially, some guys think that they deserve to be with a girl more than the other guy. They rationalize it and blame the girl to try and block out the thought that she might not be interested in them. (Which, pro tip: They aren't interested.)

From what I've seen, the difference isn't between kindness and assholery. It's more about being interesting and exciting. An ENTJ, for example, wouldn't find overly emotional and harmonious people interesting or fun (i.e. INFP/INFJ.) 

INFJ people (from what I've seen) would find more emotional and "damaged" (lack of a better word) people interesting. That's because they're naturally empathetic. ENTJs would find spontaneous and risk taking people interesting (as an anagram from our usually ambitious and planned lifestyle. ESTPs/ESFPs etc. etc.)

Sorry to make this about MBTI, but that's my example.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

DanielHPong said:


> It takes almost nothing to offer a few words of acknowledgement ("I understand that you are suffering, and I am sorry that this is the case, regardless of why it is happening.") or to just remain silent.
> 
> On the other hand, being aggressively cruel to people who are already suffering seems like an extremely costly trade. I seriously doubt anyone would tell an anorexic person to "quit whining all the time" just because their complaints were a little unsightly to witness. The cost to that person is almost laughably huge compared to whatever minor satisfaction you might get from saying that.
> 
> I don't have a lot of respect for "nice guys", but being needlessly cruel to them seems pretty unjustified no matter what system of ethics you're playing by.


It similar to dealing with delusional people. It has been said that you have to act as though their delusions/hallucinations are true to comfort them before working through the problem.
There are more effective ways of achieving success. Recall the old anti-sugarcoating thread, the proponents believed that by being critical toward all flaws would somehow alleviate problems. Flawed people shall be criticized. But will that be an effective measure in repairing their flaws? Doubtfully. There are ways of doing things effectively let that much be known.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Metalize said:


> From passive aggressive people who, instead of realizing that the entire "alpha" package is a regressive mating strategy (in the wider sociocultural context), do the next "best" thing and resort to more deceptive methods. Then whine about it on MGTOW when it doesn't work.
> 
> It doesn't mean a nice human being.


You only say that because of your misandry and ageism. Hate speech writers such as Wolfie should be removed.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> You only say that because of your misandry and ageism. Hate speech writers such as Wolfie should be removed.


What better way to demonstrate freedom of thought than to ban all dissidents.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Metalize said:


> What better way to demonstrate freedom of thought than to ban all dissidents.


This is a safe space, I am not required to be traumatized any longer.


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as
> 
> I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
> I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?
> ...


Hollywood romantic comedy/drama


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Metalize said:


> From passive aggressive people who, instead of realizing that the entire "alpha" package is a regressive mating strategy (in the wider sociocultural context)


How is it a regressive mating strategy?


----------



## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as
> 
> I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
> I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?
> ...


They put the pussy on a pedestal.


----------



## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

It comes from being told shit like "everyone is beautiful", while also being told that the only think you have to do is be nice and someone will fall for you.

Then it doesn't happen and they get angry. They were essentially lied to, so they got angry.



It's the anger phase. Eventually, they'll either go back to the start, or move past that.


----------



## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

Felipe said:


> Hollywood romantic comedy/drama


Yep. Those Goddamned collegent movies where some nerds has a thing for a girl who is way out of his league, he does something stupid to make her dislike him even more and then by the end he gives some stupid speech and that is apparently enough for a pretty and successful women to fall in love with him even though he has _done_ nothing to actually prove he is worth her time.


----------



## Wonder15 (Apr 9, 2016)

Wisteria said:


> If they were "nice guys", wouldn't they accept the woman's choice?


I'm sure they do accept it, I'm sure they don't tell the person that they wanted to be with that it hurt, how hard they tried to be sweet caring and attentive...but in the end there's always a question of why and that's when they ask around or ask just to get it off their chest 

☆彡


----------



## Wonder15 (Apr 9, 2016)

MisterPerfect said:


> So in other words you dont care at all about the suffering of your friends or loved ones? Nice that we established that. Good job! When your friends get involved with drugs, have anorexia or are walking around with sunglasses since they are getting daily beatings we will know the people like you will do absolutely nothing and feel nothing. Since that is so what it means to be a FRIEND! Nice MESSAGE! Lets make a movie about it. I sure that will make a better world.
> 
> What you are saying is "I see you are suffering but you made that choice and since you made a bad decision I no longer care about you and I will let you suffer". I know you think that makes you a nice person but it just makes you a negligent friend. Even if you dont intervene you could at least give a damn. I mean my god how callus can you possibly be. I dont see why people have this attitude of not giving a fuck about anyone besides themselves makes them a good friend.





MisterPerfect said:


> So in other words you dont care at all about the suffering of your friends or loved ones? Nice that we established that. Good job! When your friends get involved with drugs, have anorexia or are walking around with sunglasses since they are getting daily beatings we will know the people like you will do absolutely nothing and feel nothing. Since that is so what it means to be a FRIEND! Nice MESSAGE! Lets make a movie about it. I sure that will make a better world.
> 
> What you are saying is "I see you are suffering but you made that choice and since you made a bad decision I no longer care about you and I will let you suffer". I know you think that makes you a nice person but it just makes you a negligent friend. Even if you dont intervene you could at least give a damn. I mean my god how callus can you possibly be. I dont see why people have this attitude of not giving a fuck about anyone besides themselves makes them a good friend.


No...what DanielHPong meant is that you shouldn't insult someone who is in an abusive relationship because they might not have known it was going to be an abusive relationship when it started. You don't have to respect their decision but you shouldn't insult them either 

☆彡


----------



## KateMarie999 (Dec 20, 2011)

I've found that the issue isn't that the guys are super nice at all. A lot of them are under the delusion that they're nice but they're not. I had to leave the online dating scene because so many guys were telling me things like that they were so nice, they'd treat me well, they weren't like those awful other guys who cheat or insult their partners. But that didn't matter to me. That's not strictly what I was looking for in a relationship. I was looking for a genuinely nice guy who acted nice without complaining about his lack of success in romance. Because that turns girls off. It makes them sound prideful and entitled to affection just because they wouldn't do what those "other guys" do. I don't care how devoted these guys would be to me if I dated them, I want common interests and deep conversations. I want more to the relationship than promises of fidelity and being treated "like a princess." Those things are so superficial. Of course I want a committed guy who will treat me well but I don't want to be put on a pedestal by a desperate single man.

Moral of the story? Actions speak louder than words, guys. Don't say you're a nice guy, BE a nice guy. And be okay with some women simply not being interested.


----------



## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Felipe said:


> How is it a regressive mating strategy?


I'm guessing you are familiar with the PUA community that generally endorses these tactics.

It works on the types of potential mates, that implicitly and explicitly promote the very antisocial behaviors that move a person up, at the expense of others. Of course, the guilt lies just as much if not more within the individuals that actually perpetuate these philosophies through their words and actions. If this effect reverberates throughout society, the long-term cultural net effect is that antisocial behaviors become normal and even encouraged (from reduced public safety to widespread corruption), that socially powerful individuals (corporate, religious, government heads) run amok with few checks and balances, and that the culture itself becomes toxic to both men and women with the expense of a select few men. I was careful to emphasize it is regressive in the sociocultural sense; it is irresponsible and hypocritical (if the individual in fact does not believe in these tenets). One of the reasons that Northern countries have historically enjoyed such a high standard of living is that the structure of their societies is such that it (relatively) diminishes the importance of these belief systems/philosophies, such as in Sweden and Norway. It appears as a feminist/gender-based issue, but it's actually a more fundamental pillar maintaining the social superstructures that come back to affect our individual lives, regardless of gender or dating preferences.

The antisocial philosophies and behaviors exalted by these groups are in clear contrast to pro-social behaviors, which typically involving working towards harmony and emphasizing collective needs. This obviously takes a dip into a much more nuanced political discussion. More to the immediate point, there are plenty of women, and if a guy does want to find a partner without endorsing the points mentioned above, he should simply look for a woman that agrees with him in these regards. They exist.


----------



## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Catwalk said:


> *These same individual(s) asserting ''actions speak louder then words'' - are the main ones that do not do anything, lulz.*
> 
> They do not reciporicate anything - it is one thing to be confident 24/7 - but the other partner is not _confident _themselves; it appears to put much weight + damage on the other party (i.e., doing all the work) - unless ''not confident enough''. It's gibberish, IMO - both must be confident + sure recopricated action(s) - this rarely happen(s); that's why they put so much emphasis on ''confidence'' (via) other(s) - where is theirs ... (?) Why make the 1st move to some shy male / female that *Starfishes*' all actions .. (?)


Why do you think that?


----------



## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Catwalk said:


> I think in general most individual(s) are tired of picking up looney shy lazy bitches; they're pretty annoying, *IMO.* I do not mind slapping a bitch around sometimes, but I am wondering why he / she make(s) this a_ lifestyle_ -- (i.e., must slap me around constantly) - it is very* co*-dependent. It gets _draining_ holding toddler(s) hands + being a leader 24/7 + making initiation always - these individual(s) need a lifelong mommy, seems like. I think dominant individual(s) need just as much reassurance; most (via) the dating scene are submissive or lazy bitches & do not reciporicate anything - it is like flying off within the unknown.


What are methods of giving reassurance to dominant individual?



Catwalk said:


> While many misogynistic ''shit-bag'' nice guys - are indeed, just that - (&) perhap(s) may lack confidence; (re: I do condemn all act(s) + expressions of misogynistic / unethical mean(s) of psychological manipulations) I do not think this is universally true for ''all'' - perhaps, they are merely _non-traditional_ per ex; (&) tired of the female(s) lazy courtshipping skill(s) .. (?) There are many _possibilities_ like so.


Jesus Christ, it's so fucking annoying. Just hearing about how males are supposed to initiate, makes me not want to initiate fucking anything ever.


----------



## ArmchairCommie (Dec 27, 2015)

Most of these "nice guys" are really just misogynistic assholes in disguise. They pretend to be nice because of the fact that they think being nice is the "proper" way to get a girl. Also many "nice guys" say that they are nice because of the fact that they are so worthless and unable to do anything else in life. 

Despite many "nice guys" calling themselves feminists they are the epitome of misogyny as they stereotype all females as the same and are stuck in that archaic mindset of "Prince Charming" meets his princess and she becomes his dependent for the rest of his life. In reality everyone is their own independent person and has their own will and wishes. If one girl does not like you why complain about it? They are allowed to like and dislike whoever they want to.

In reality many "nice guys" are in fact very manipulative people and seek to twist others to their image. The fact that they impose their ideal of what a girl what (a nice guy) and finds the reality of the situation horrifying exemplifies how out of touch they are with reality. If you really didn't like that girl hanging out with the "Bad boys" why should she move over to hang out with you? The fact that "nice guys" think that all girls need to be in a relationship exemplifies their backwards thinking yet again. "Nice guys" only think they are nice, in reality they only deceive others and try to control them in subversive ways. 

Now am I saying that being nice is wrong and every guy should just be an asshole? No of course not! In reality the nicest guys are those who do not know, the only who do not complain, the ones who do not hate others, the one who do not get jealous. Those are the *true nice guys*, and society must not hate those individuals for their kindness. 

At the same time being nice does not entitle you to anything and while anyone can be nice not everyone in the world has compatible interests with you. When people date they seek out those with similar interests, those who are interesting, funny, creative, etc. 

*Those who only say cookie cutter compliments are the most boring people there are and so they should expect only a cookie cutter rejection in return.*


----------



## g_w (Apr 16, 2013)

Catwalk said:


> It may be perhaps a bias female view - for these ''bottom'' male(s), it is that any female, finds the deplorable. For a female, it is just watching ''prince charming'' (i.e., brad pitt) select slutty Kim Kardashians - but the *abundance* of males available to the female specimen is in no way comparable to that of the ''bottom'' male, we still have average desperate joes - even the average Joe has to struggle (via) the strict female mate selection(s) - I am more inclined to think ''non-single'' male(s) just got lucky. Some average male(s) will take anything - that is why their standard(s) are so low.
> 
> The ''bottom'' male (re: the most extreme cases) - have no one; generally speaking, mate selection appear(s) twice as difficult for males as is, for the ''bottom'' male it is escalated triple of that of the female (via) biological mating rituals - additionally, these males , that are indeed, human - may never mate, nor be liked aside for extreme _rare_ cases.
> 
> ...


You're not far off.

Missing is the...shall we say, "inculcated" fairy tale of mating, promulgated by mothers and sisters, and female friends, and female "let's just be friends" (since women don't realize that in terms of both giving *and* receiving, friendship means different things to men and women)...

women tell men the myth that they are attracted to "nice guys" which really means -- the traits of a nice guy are what I want to have present in a man, once I've already decided he's hot, and I've locked him down for a relationship. These are the traits that a woman hopes to instill in a bad boy once she fixes him with her very onliest own snowflake pure love, or the traits for a long, long term monogamous relationship has when the partners say "I love you but I'm not 'in love' with you".

The poor guys, being both lonely and inexperienced, take this advice to heart: and start doing all the White Knight "look I'm you're champion and you are my Fairest Lady" things that women find repulsive. The man, seeing that his actual experience does not comport with what he's been told, doubles down on what he believes: and either gets resentful at women for "not following through" on their end of the bargain, (...mistakenly thinking of love and limerence as an exchange, which it is not), or, pouting, and coming across as "Girls OWE ME a date / sex" for being such a swell Nice Guy." 

Most of the guys don't literally mean it like that, what they mean is more "by the law of averages, given I've done what I was told by all the women I asked, surely my lottery ticket of finding "The One" would have come in by now."

It never occurs to them, (as so many women on this thread have divulged), is that they need to act more like the bad boy: not that all women MUST hunger for bad men, but bad men look strong...confident...intriguing...exciting...NOT boring (and "hot" and "brag to my girlfriends about him"-worthy, for what that counts for).

I once read an interesting analogy. A guy who goes baring his heart, and declaring his feeling or a girl too soon after meeting her, kills her attraction in a way very similar to a woman who gets too physical, too quickly, neither presenting a challenge, nor doing it out of deep compatibility. In either case, pulling the trigger too soon makes the person look needy, desperate, and unsure of their own worth.

Back to our regularly scheduled flamewar...


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> What are methods of giving reassurance to dominant individual?


I would say reciprocity - there is a difference between being ''2nd class'' + just being lazy; additionally, I find most individual(s) that do not want to make the 1st move are non-active // non-reciprocitive - just wait for the individual(s) with the ''*upperhand*'' to do all the work, that is merely _laziness._

Most ''traditional'' individual(s) are merely lazy, I do not even buy that _half-assed _excuse much.

''Reciporcity'' (i.e., _sub_-initation) - rather than ''1st-order'' initation - entail(s) a reason for the dominant individual (re: if so) - to even continue pursuing - some individual(s) are just pure Starfish'ism + leave the male / female that pursues taking *SHOTS IN DARK* (via) ambiguous bullshot 'body signals' rather then direct vocalization + lack empathy, for such a situation / position in which they put the _individual._

I say, ''lack empathy'' because (X) individual not feeling like _doing all the work_; to combat their *laziness*, they immediately say ''lack of confidence'' - which, I find, it is faux nonsense. 

Nah. It is not lack confidence - their ''signals'' + reassurance is just far *too* _ambiguous _ // lacking of consideration (&) thus, an irrational waste of time. 

The hypocrisy, is they do not want the position for the same _reason._ :smile:


----------



## marblecloud95 (Aug 12, 2015)

I don't know if women have more luck I'd say most are more likely to just go on in life without it, men have a higher desire for sex so that's why they tend to complain more. Also interestingly enough I've heard that an increased lack of relationships/sexual activity can actually raise ones standards to an unrealistic level.

Idk tho. I mean I'm a mestizo midget but I only go for hard bodies with the junk in the trunk and good cleavage. So yeah I may be not be a good person to emulate but hey your mileage may vary


----------



## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

Whine all you want about " men having to initatue" but that certainly wont get you anywhere.

If you want something in life, a job, a house, a car, the last slice of pizza, go after it. You can't possibly expect for things to just fall into your lap while you cry about life being unfair

And yes, that applies to everyone, to life in general.


----------



## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

It's just a whinge.

An excuse to avoid making efforts to engage with a person they find attractive. I don't think this is a new phenomenon, I imagine there have been variations of this throughout history, I just think now we focus on it more due to information availability, internet etc...

Plus it's a current hot discussion topic within that information sphere (or information oblate spheroid for the geeks).

But yeah, if they hang around with someone they are attracted to and don't make their feelings well known and instead try to ingratiate themselves with 'niceness' then they are creating a false image of their motivations and shouldn't expect a reward for being 'nice'.


----------



## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

Jealousy.


----------



## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)




----------



## Crimson Ash (May 16, 2012)

So many great points already made in this thread. 

But what needs to be remembered is that it is a very complex issue that needs to considered from both sides. By that I mean not only the stereotypical "nice" and "bad" boys but also why women are selective in a certain direction or another.

First lets talk about "bad" boys. Why are women drawn to this type? Honestly most people would immediately say because of their confidence, demeanor and overall ability to speak loudly to the world that "this is me and I don't give a fuck if no one accepts me or not but this is who I am". Certainly we can go the route of biology and consider that this being a key marker that makes them attractive. Certainly I would be drawn to men like that. 

But time and time again I see the mistake being made of not looking deeper past the surface of these individuals. In some cases they are simply damaging/damaged individuals hiding behind a facade of an overblown ego. In some cases they are also of above average physical attractiveness so therefore they have never really had the need to look inward and address certain issues that would make them absolutely horrible long term partners.
Furthermore I find it happens that they simply wreak havoc within the lives of all those who they are with and simply move onto the next one.

Now when we talk about "nice" guys we need to talk about why they exist. They exist as a direct reaction in the opposite direction of some men seeing "bad" boy types garnering success but also being destructive and they figure that by being the opposite they could get somewhere. This is also wrong for many "nice" guys aren't actually nice at all and on the surface might seem to want to sacrifice their very being for another and would gladly be walked and trampled on just be be recognized. This dampens their actual personality and warps it to try and fit the needs of those they wish to garner attention from. What then happens is once they finally get what they want they realize their dishonestly and turn into frankly the very monster they wished to not be like.

Now let us look at women and their choices. I'm all for letting individuals make their own choices but from what I've seen in life there are two interesting patterns to take note. 

When confronted with "bad" boy types they seem to want to forgive them and their character flawed more easily than they should. Some even hoping that they are able to make changes for the better and always holding onto hope when it comes to them. This is admirable in a certain way but at the same time fruitless if the individual in question is not willing to change for themselves.

On the other hand some women have an intense dislike for "nice" guy types. This is because they are aware of the thinly veiled deception that is going on. Yet at times they utilize these men to fulfill some of their needs. Whether it be emotional or physical. The "nice" guy types are never right to say that they deserve something for just being "nice" but at the same time enabling this type of behavior even though it would be clear that there is dishonesty is also wrong in my opinion.

Now that we have address the negatives lets look at some of the positives shall we?

When it comes to the "bad" boy types they have all the confidence in the world to take it on no matter what. They will let absolutely nothing stand in their way. Certainly they are flawed in their own ways but once they start realizing this and healing themselves they certain come off better.

When it comes to "nice" guys they are probably more keenly aware of their own character flaws and could possibly address them better and sooner. While they need to realize that suppressing their own personality to try and satisfy the needs of others is a task of futility in the long term they are perhaps more tuned into the needs of their partners so in that respect they are better.

*

Disclaimer *
Again to reiterate this is a very complex issue that exists in today's modern world. So try not to take everything I say as sweeping generalizations as I am fully aware that these do not apply to all.


----------



## Carpentet810 (Nov 17, 2013)

If nice guys are so nice why are they bitching about girls that won't go out with them. That by definition is not nice. Hence nice guys are just inferior posers who pretend they are something, so they can attain a mate above their station in life. 

Also if you have to tell people you are nice, because they cannot tell otherwise, then you are a pretty shitty person. Its like the people who have to tell you how great their kids are with a bumper sticker or have vanity plate that says clergy. No one can tell otherwise, because their actions or children's actions are so piss poor that nobody differentiates them from all the other shitbirds out there.


----------



## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

I don't know when you guys see all these womens going for "bad boys", unless we're talking about some kind of an extreme pathology. Hard to see any women who aren't with "nice guys" and even "bad boys" tend to behave like "nice guys" to their women.



Fumetsu said:


> Whine all you want about " men having to initatue" but that certainly wont get you anywhere.


What makes you think that I give a fuck about getting anywhere, 3D woman? Do I look like some desperate nice guy estranged from his unconsciousness?
I just find females infected with such memes of the degenerate society supremely annoying and I don't want to have anything to do with them. Giving them an opportunity to follow their ideology is a great shit-filter.

(tfw the only females that approached me were "alternative" girls - I don't know why they assume that someone who didn't shave for several years would be interested in women with dyed hair or tens (or any) earrings  . Though apparently such a mismatched pair is a thing in some kind of alternative bands (digital hardcore?) )



Catwalk said:


> I would say reciprocity - there is a difference between being ''2nd class'' + just being lazy; additionally, I find most individual(s) that do not want to make the 1st move are non-active // non-reciprocitive - just wait for the individual(s) with the ''*upperhand*'' to do all the work, that is merely _laziness._
> 
> Most ''traditional'' individual(s) are merely lazy, I do not even buy that _half-assed _excuse much.
> 
> ...


Aww^^

Why faux nonsense?


----------



## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

Gentle, kind, compassionate, reserved people with no ulterior motives when it comes to relationships exist. "Salt of the earth" or "down to earth" types.

...

Mind = blown.

----

'Complaining' is a natural part of the human condition. It is not a definition of character, except in the most extreme of example. Every single human being complains about something, at some point, at some time. Every. Single. One.

...

Mind = blown.

---

One does not refute the other.

...

Mind = blown.

----

Food for thought.


----------



## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Blessed Frozen Cells said:


> It sounds stupid to use in any other context such as
> 
> I'm a nice female why won't guys choose me over other girls?
> I'm a nice grandpa why won't girls choose me over other guys?
> ...


I've never heard this.

Everyone knows Assholes finish first.


----------



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

MisterPerfect said:


> *Some women are stupid and always pick assholes so this makes sense. Sometimes women choose someone they know are going to cheat on them and so this makes sense. Sometimes women constantly pick guys they say are annoying to other guy friend and this makes sense. If you are comparing and the woman keeps picking people who suck and hurt them it makes sense to wonder why they dont just pick a decent guy.*
> 
> I had a best friend who kept going after guys who were clearly players and had women falling all over them and would not commit and than came back and asked me "Why is he being like this". At first I tried to stay out of it and be vague as not to throw this obvious jerk under the bus since I was friends with both of them. Eventually I explained "He is a player" and listed all the reason why. They tried to rationalize why that could not be the case, and this trend continued as they hopped from guy to guy to guy. They never changed but in the end they stopped going for guys they felt they could depend on and went for guys that would depend on her and took the more dominant role. I told her everything wrong with the guys she was dating but she always try to say "No I swear this ones better than the last one!" and it always ended badly. Like she never saw the signs, like she was not a stupid girl but she had such horrible judgement in men.
> 
> ...


But the whole point of it is to have a choice. That's one's freedom even if it's a stupid choice, they are free to make them. 

Everyone's stupid in some ways. Some are a hot mess in relationships, others with money, etc.

Because that's not how attraction works, is it? You can choose to stay with or leave a person but you can't choose to be attracted/not to be attracted to them. One can be perfect in every way but you might still not be attracted to them. Would you honestly get into a relationship without feeling any attraction? I don't think most people would.


----------



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

MisterPerfect said:


> I guess none of you care at all about your friends and their well being. So if you had a friend dating a man that beating her everyday you would just smile and say "Good job honey im proud of you" or would you be kind of irritated that they are letting someone hurt them? I dont think Enabling it is necessarily the best thing in these type of situation. Especially when you are the one they are whining too.


That's a whole different topic. One of my friends (I even made a thread here) had a playboy ex and he left her for a younger hotter version of her. It ruined her emotionally. Now she's an insecure mess and I didn't like him in the first place. I used to be the bad guy and criticize the choice but it doesn't work every time. I have successfully prevented some other friend from dating an asshole but as I got older I've learned to stay out of things because I'm tired of being the bad guy and being used between breakups. If they don't care, why should I care?

But the nice guy is not from a friend POV. It's from a rival POV. This is different. And you could also say they are also stupid for wanting to be with someone who is known to make stupid choices. On top of that the real nice guys with other great qualities, who don't complain like that, get screwed over more. The ones, who like to complain, don't normally seem to have any other redeeming qualities than being "nice" and often biased about the guy their crush has chosen. 



TheJ said:


> The way I see it-
> The problem comes from the view that desirability to others is an indication of an objective sort of value. We compare ourselves with others which we see not as good as us (by any criteria we use to judge other people's value), and think it's not fair that we (being more valuable) don't get the same kind of recognition of our value as them. (recognition in the form of relationship/attractiveness/desirabilty)
> But people have different standards of what value is. They don't follow the same "rules" we do in our own judgements, they have their own. Not only that but without proving your "value" to others, you won't receive recognition for it.
> 
> ...


HA! That's a great quote!


----------



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I don't see how that suggests anyone owes anything to anyone.
> It always seemed more like an envy of those who actually have partners coupled with this stereotypical sense of "bad boys winning."
> *But if you want to talk about people owing things to others, start talking about people in relationships. They have no problem with thinking that sex is a given and an expectation. Those are the people with problems.*


It is an expectation but that doesn't mean you owe them anything.



MisterPerfect said:


> *So if your partner wants sex and you plan to never give it isnt that neglecting that persons needs? Shouldn't there be some type of compromise?
> *
> *Also if you know when you get into the relationship that your partner is going to want sex at some point, and you refuse under all circumstances to give it up would it be fair to say that they can get sex from another person. Or are you going to keep them unhappy, tied to you, and not allowed to ever ever have sex since you dont like sex?*
> 
> How exactly is that fair?


But on the other hand, if you don't want to have sex at all and only doing so because you feel like you owe them sex also neglecting someone's lack of desires? You can't compromise between someone who doesn't want sex at all with someone else who wants sex on any other level. One of them has to neglect and go against their innate desires or lack thereof.

Not if it was discussed before or openly even if it's something one discovered in the middle of the relationship. When I first met my partner, I didn't mention to them that I would be open to have sex purposely. They though as I am asexual I wouldn't be having sex at all by default. They agreed to it. I gave them many chances to chase after someone else. They refused and that was before I said I wouldn't mind having sex. If they decide to have an open relationship is their own business. They are free to leave anytime they want.


----------



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

Engelsstaub said:


> The main problem with "nice guys" is not that they are nice. It's that they are usually quite desperate for girls' attention.
> 
> They tend to suffer from low self-esteem, anxieties, shyness and other issues. They claim that they will be the ones to truly selflessly love their partners unlike those "bad boys", but it's quite the opposite - they are the most selfish kind. They are in fact very weak, needy and insecure. Such guys would make terrible partners because they'd turn their girlfriends into personal psychological advisors or personal coaches of some sort. They'd be a big burden for potential partners. In the end a relationship would collapse with a big boom and both sides would be totally drained.
> 
> So if someone feels desperate about getting into a relationship I'd suggest getting your shit together. Fix your self-esteem, get some kind of real life, some interests ans start living it instead of sitting in your basement and complaining.


Wise words.



Fumetsu said:


> This is _exactly_ how I feel about it.
> 
> "Nice guys" honestly creep me out. There is just something about them that is very ingenuine and that is a huge red flag.
> They are also the type to use their status as a "Nice guy" as an excuse for their failures and so they never, ever try.
> ...


The difference between guys who proclaim themselves as "nice guys" are only nice because they want something in return. I call this fake niceness. 

And then there are actual nice guys like my partner who is nice to everyone, male, female, young, old, doesn't matter. He's nice to people because he's innately a nice person


----------



## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Nice guys don't portray the appearance of being strong enough to protect a woman, thus they are looking for someone who will fight for them and fight to protect them. The problem is, that such guys are also likely to fight WITH them.
> 
> I think maybe it's a subconscious thing. Women don't even realize they are interested in a man whose strong and protective, and a nice guy doesn't make them feel safe.


I only look for lean nerds who'll have my back during MMO games.



strawberryLola said:


> Nice implies fake. We're all taught to be nice. Some people learn to disown parts of themselves in order to be "socially accepted." Therefore, most perceive their fakeness as being boring, uninteresting, cookie-cutter, generic.
> 
> Yet, at the same time, we seem to live in a society that values those attributes, because people are always competing, and it's such a paradox. Truly nice honest guys/gals do seem to lose out at times, and I don't blame people for feeling hurt when they are rejected. It's the assholes that don't care. I'm pretty sure at one point or another, we all have felt hurt because we did open our hearts.


Yes, I can't stand it. It's like they want something from me!



Prada said:


> This is nothing else but playing the victim card and no one but abusers are into victims. People saying that should stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something about their situation. Not once did I hear someone say it and it being actually true with no buts. It's usually "I'm a nice guy/girl but I don't talk to people I like, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but I'm totally lame everything is wrong with me and only a fool would date me, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but the other person has to read my mind and make a move on me, why does no one want to date me?" or "I'm a nice guy/girl but I'm too good for everyone but my ideal mate..." you know the drill.
> 
> People who know are good enough for a relationship and know what they can offer attract others. But they also need to be confident and engage in social activities and ACTUALLY be nice. Calling yourself nice and being nice are not the same thing.
> 
> ...


That's one of my favorite articles from Cracked


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

kaleidoscope said:


> Are they really getting rejected though? To my understanding, a lot of these guys never make a move, don't express their feelings, and expect their romantic interest to just magically be aware of, and reciprocate their feelings.
> 
> And if you DID express your feelings and they're not mutual, why keep getting bitter and settle for a friendship that you don't really want? Move onto someone else. Don't sit there and be bitter about something that you know won't ever happen. And don't pretend to be a friend if all you're doing is using that friendship as a way to become romantically involved, instead of actually valuing it.


Romantic feelings and friendship are not mutually exclusive. Most of the time a guy is not just using a friendship to get into a relationship with a girl, instead he actually genuinely values her as a friend and romantic feelings developed on top of that. When you're rejected your feelings for the other person don't automatically disappear, the feelings would get much messier for sure, but a lot of the times the guy would still value her as a person. It might be very difficult for any friendship to survive one of the friends rejecting the other, but I understand the lingering desire for the guy to still want to be friends with the girl.

You're right that some guys just never express their romantic feelings at all, hoping that a relationship will somehow develop naturally someday. Yes, they can't really complain about the girl getting into relationships with other people if they never expressed romantic interest themselves. I think a lot of this stems from social anxiety and low self esteem, also from wanting to stick with what is comfortable instead of putting themselves on the line which is more risky. So, my advice to those guys would absolutely be to express their real feelings instead of hiding them, but I do have sympathy for people with low self esteem and can't blame them too harshly.


----------



## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

Fumetsu said:


> That's because " nice guys" and " bad boys" are the same person wearing a different maks.
> 
> Or maybe, the " bad boy"is the next stage bitter and lonely male after the" nice guy" tactic gas failed.
> 
> ...


You have a point, but I would say that the nice guy receives so much rejection that eventually he stops caring, resulting in a "bad boy". In some instances the nice guy is still there and comes out if the female has accepted the male and a relationship is formed. 

In some cases it's also the other way round. The nice guy is actually a bad boy and this is only revealed again as a relationship is formed.

Another is the nice guy who in a relationship is overly nice and a bad boy who gets worse.


----------



## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)




----------



## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiners are kind of like socialists/communists, "why won't the state give me more cheese?", "why did they give me only a two-bedroom apartment?", "why do I still have to study if I support the Communist Party?" etc.

Lousy commies...

Some people are born to whine.


----------



## Sava Saevus (Feb 14, 2015)

The Proof said:


> Whiners are kind of like socialists/communists, "why won't the state give me more cheese?", "why did they give me only a two-bedroom apartment?", "why do I still have to study if I support the Communist Party?" etc.
> 
> Lousy commies...
> 
> Some people are born to whine.


Wrong thread and forum, buddy. You're looking for the Debate / Philosophical forums.


----------

