# Typing Help Needed



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm trying to type my relative and hope someone can help me with this.

I went through NFP->NTP->NFJ for him and returned to square one, trying to figure out the intertype.

His Te is derp, so I don't think he can be Te base or creative. Higher Se is also unlikely.

He is creative and imaginative guy and the cornucopia of ideas, but there is this thing that I find highly puzzling. He is very quick to make attachments to his interests and once he's in, he is totally invested in this thing, to the point of total idealization of the object of his interest.

For example, if he supports politics of country Z, he is totally and absolutely advocates said country in all respects. Supports all the ideas that its president proclaims, buys products made in this country only and deems them the best, watches movies and listens to the music made in this country only, buys a flag and hangs it on the wall, buys other relevant souvenir stuff etc. Everybody who disagrees with his views are labeled as ignorant and I think he feels misunderstood because others don't see his side of things.

Then something clicks inside his head and he totally abandons and rejects everything he's been so vigorously supported before and starts supporting politics of another, rival country. Says he was totally wrong about everything, been a fool, and then again - buys new flag of this another country, watches movies, listens to music made in this country only and calls everybody else brainwashed and says that only he is in the right place and so on.

Then something clicks again and... the circle repeats. I think you got the idea. 

This concerns not countries only of course. He's like that about everything. What is so odd to me is not quick and full abandonment of previous ideas and rigorous investment with new ones (it's all good and understandable), but almost worship-like support of either one side or the other side. There can't be in between. Someone is always right and someone is always wrong. If one side deemed "good" then it is good absolutely and unquestionably in everything, and if the other side is "bad", then it is wrong about everything absolutely and unquestionably as well. I find it very strange not to assume that there's a probability both sides may be wrong or that both sides may be right about something and wrong about something else. 

Where such predisposition can come from in terms of functions?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Sounds NF to me. Like he is doing some kind of associative, holistic thinking that doesn't make the kinds of distinctions Thinking types tend to make.



> *Intuition and Feeling*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/9813-mbti-functions-explained.html)

Beyond that, I'm not sure if there's enough information to type him. One could try to argue that he's dynamic because of his tendency to change a lot, but then I change my mind a lot too and so do plenty of static Ne types.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

obstinate feeler...ExFx.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

I could help you clarify reinins perhaps?

But, otherwise regardless if I am a FiSe or FiNe, you're talking to T dimwit. Just a warning  .


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Read something that said that a person's leading function is what he is most prone to speak up about and talks the longest about. For instance, in group settings, I am usually the first to speak up about "let's hear his side", or "maybe this person thinks This", or morality, etc., and I can talk about "right/wrong" and the well-being of society and psychology and interpersonal relationships alllllll day.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

My guess is Fi-dom. But, without more information, it's impossible to say, really. And even _with _more information, I think I might just toss out too many ideas. :kitteh:


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Ixim said:


> I could help you clarify reinins perhaps?
> 
> But, otherwise regardless if I am a FiSe or FiNe, you're talking to T dimwit. Just a warning  .


That would be great. I'm a bit fishy about Reinins, as I don't know how to apply some of them to myself even. Lol. 
He seems like a declarer, as he can go for hours in complete monologues on topics he's interested in and doesn't need any questions to make conversation going more comfortable for him, the way I do.

Also seems like obstinate type, but on the other hand, he doesn't have any goals, and he mentioned that he doesn't strain after anything particular. It's just all his interest are very absorbing, it's like, this week he likes Madonna, buys all her albums and biographies and nonstop rambles on how awesome she is and how all she says is the unappealable wisdom, and next week Natalie Portman is the coolest woman on earth and Madonna is a closed redundant chapter.



Jeremy8419 said:


> Read something that said that a person's leading function is what he is most prone to speak up about and talks the longest about. For instance, in group settings, I am usually the first to speak up about "let's hear his side", or "maybe this person thinks This", or morality, etc., and I can talk about "right/wrong" and the well-being of society and psychology and interpersonal relationships alllllll day.


The topics he enjoys the most are politics, history and geography and how events historically developed into the current state of things, or more precisely - into his own idea about the current state of things. On the surface it seems like something Ni would like to talk about. He permanently talks about people, but he's quite a mysantropic person, so it never presented in a positive light. It's more about how brainwashed everybody are and how it would be great if one day everybody died, so he could remain the only man on earth.
Well-being of society and interpersonal relationships... Hmm. No, I don't think these are his interests and psychology he called a some sort of trumpery.


Word Dispenser said:


> My guess is Fi-dom. But, without more information, it's impossible to say, really. And even _with _more information, I think I might just toss out too many ideas. :kitteh:


More ideas are always good 

---
Some more details:

I don't think he can be an extraverted dominant, as all his ruminations seem to be deeply subjective in nature. 

Also not Se dominant. He is very shy, reclusive and nervous among strangers. He can't make anybody do things, not assertive in the least and frequently asks us to call to public services when he needs to compile some relevant documentation, because he doesn't know how to speak, what to say and get what he wants from them. Only among his relatives he becomes very opinionated, open and loud, vehemently pushing his agenda. He disdains the military and frequently makes mockery of any fighting services.

I've been thinking he can be on Ti-Fe axis as he tends to laughing for laughter's sake and conversations with him (if it's not an argument on something) usually turn into carefree laughs about something of no significance, aimed at having positive atmosphere, fun, and exploration of some invented ideas. But it may be just that he is a feeler, so both higher-dimensional Fi and Fe are showing themselves.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Do you have anything that is produced by him to share? Something he wrote (ideally something lengthier), pieces of art etc. Also, what are his favorite musicians/artists? What kind of art style is he drawn to?


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Do you have anything that is produced by him to share? Something he wrote (ideally something lengthier), pieces of art etc. Also, what are his favorite musicians/artists? What kind of art style is he drawn to?


He wrote something, but it's not in English, so it would be of no use.

Favorite musicians vary. I already mentioned Madonna here, there's been period in his life when he absolutely adored her, also he liked many pop stars like Britney Spears, Cher, Amy Whinehouse, Kylie Minogue, Brian Ferry, Prince and the like. He likes very much when music is not simply music, but some holistic experience. What I mean is that good song or good voice is not enough, but it should be accompanied by cool, artistic video, some innovative idea and interesting presentation of the whole product. For this reasons he's been into Michael Jackson for quite a time, as the man been such an innovator in pop music. He likes everything extravagant, eye-catching and unusual. He also likes different soundtracks. Not scores, those he doesn't enjoy, but soundtracks that comprise compilations of various less known artists. Also, catchy dance music. He's never been much into rock, except maybe Him, but lately he developed liking for classic rock bands like Animals. There's also this thing that he tend to like separate songs by artists/bands without exploring discography of any particular artist/band deeper.

Among movies these are: art-house, movies that are shown on film festivals (usually he is interested in winners) and many local oldies. Several years ago he's been much into all the new stuff, but then departed into mentioned genres.

Not once he mentioned that he likes realistic paintings very much and doesn't understand things like Picasso or other abstract/cubist painters. Dali is also among his favourites, because of his ingenuity. Impressionists paintings are so-so. He neither likes nor dislikes them.

He is also greatly in support of LGBT community and LGBT musicians, but on the other hand, sometimes he is quite xenophobic and racist.

Edit: forgot to mention, he greatly enjoys all kinds of horror and scary movies. Also, things like Sin City and Kill Bill.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Could be LII? Strong yet unvalued Ni, keeping things on reality yet sporadically demonstrating flows of time he feels incorrect. Using Ti-Ne to reject all social structures that don't appeal to his Si-Fe, simultaneously choosing the personally situational barricades he can set up for his own situation while rejecting the holistic Fi.

Seems like he pays attention to what he feels emotionally and wants a society structure that agrees to it. Alpha hippie commune whereby there are no displays of power, only rules and structure that are abided by to keep the good feelings and sensations in-tact.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

He sounds like Se super id, and an Ni Se type based on that taste. Probably not Fe polr though, if he enjoys tarantino.

Anyway I'm very certain he's ni se because sin city and tarantino are se fests and goes together with what you said why he likes the music videos he does and how they should have an ni message. I think se egos would be less concerned about the message though because they aren't so attuned to those things. I'm inclined to think beta quadra here, with that interest in dali being the other reason why. The rest I'm less certain of. Why does he support lbgt?


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> Could be LII? Strong yet unvalued Ni, keeping things on reality yet sporadically demonstrating flows of time he feels incorrect. Using Ti-Ne to reject all social structures that don't appeal to his Si-Fe, simultaneously choosing the personally situational barricades he can set up for his own situation while rejecting the holistic Fi.
> 
> Seems like he pays attention to what he feels emotionally and wants a society structure that agrees to it. Alpha hippie commune whereby there are no displays of power, only rules and structure that are abided by to keep the good feelings and sensations in-tact.


Yes, I've been thinking about possibility of LII, but Ti dom doesn't feel right. 

He's not really a logically driven person, and many of his "logical" reasonings are just... well, more on a feeling side of things. It's like - if he believes that something/someone is right, therefore it/they is/are logical. For example, if he likes what person X says, their views correspond with his views, therefore that person makes the most sense and is logical, no matter whether things they are talking about make logical sense in and of themselves.



Entropic said:


> He sounds like Se super id, and an Ni Se type based on that taste. Probably not Fe polr though, if he enjoys tarantino.
> 
> Anyway I'm very certain he's ni se because sin city and tarantino are se fests and goes together with what you said why he likes the music videos he does and how they should have an ni message. I think se egos would be less concerned about the message though because they aren't so attuned to those things. I'm inclined to think beta quadra here, with that interest in dali being the other reason why. The rest I'm less certain of.


Yay. Did I find Ni-dom so close in my vicinity finally?
That corresponds with what I've been thinking lately about him being IEI. He is also very interested in metaphysical stuff and all mysterious and religious matters. Dunno if you've heard about Roza Mira - book by Russian mystic Andreev on metaphilosophy of history - but we discuss it a lot and I think it is very indicative of his interests.

If it is super ego intertype, have to say, it's not that bad. We used to have clashes and it's challenging to a degree, but in the end it's very interesting and there's mutual understanding. Maybe the thing is that we know each other for a long time. 


> Why does he support lbgt?


He likes everything unusual and everything that goes beyond the norm just for the sake of it, and LGBT people are one of those "unusualnesses" he likes. They differ in clothes, behaviour, opinion, sexual preferences, stand against the crowd, are different from everybody he knows. This is what really attracts him in everything - unusualness and queerness.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

To_august said:


> Yes, I've been thinking about possibility of LII, but Ti dom doesn't feel right.
> 
> He's not really a logically driven person, and many of his "logical" reasonings are just... well, more on a feeling side of things. It's like - if he believes that something/someone is right, therefore it/they is/are logical. For example, if he likes what person X says, their views correspond with his views, therefore that person makes the most sense and is logical, no matter whether things they are talking about make logical sense in and of themselves.


What you write here about logic definitely sounds like Fe to me. This is why Fe types need Ti types to help sort through their logic in a more subjective way, because they are very bad at drawing their own conclusions about things and when they do, it's more based on a feeling consensus of what people feel. It's logical because other people think it's logical. Fi ego types have Ti superego so have a much easier time to actually draw subjective logical conclusions though it's more Fi-based. 



> Yay. Did I find Ni-dom so close in my vicinity finally?
> That corresponds with what I've been thinking lately about him being IEI. He is also very interested in metaphysical stuff and all mysterious and religious matters. Dunno if you've heard about Roza Mira - book by Russian mystic Andreev on metaphilosophy of history - but we discuss it a lot and I think it is very indicative of his interests.


Yeah, sounds Ti DS to me, not necessarily suggestive, but dual-seeking anyway.



> If it is super ego intertype, have to say, it's not that bad. We used to have clashes and it's challenging to a degree, but in the end it's very interesting and there's mutual understanding. Maybe the thing is that we know each other for a long time.
> 
> He likes everything unusual and everything that goes beyond the norm just for the sake of it, and LGBT people are one of those "unusualnesses" he likes. They differ in clothes, behaviour, opinion, sexual preferences, stand against the crowd, are different from everybody he knows. This is what really attracts him in everything - unusualness and queerness.


Hm, it could be an Fe interest depending on why it's interesting that it goes against the crowd.

Based on what you've said, he seems like a beta NF though. Reading through what you wrote in the OP:



> For example, if he supports politics of country Z, he is totally and absolutely advocates said country in all respects. Supports all the ideas that its president proclaims, buys products made in this country only and deems them the best, watches movies and listens to the music made in this country only, buys a flag and hangs it on the wall, buys other relevant souvenir stuff etc. Everybody who disagrees with his views are labeled as ignorant and I think he feels misunderstood because others don't see his side of things.


This is really weak Te to me, and the kind of Te you see in superego Te types. It also seems reminiscent of what Lenore Thomson writes about Fe and how Fe is about alliance(s):



> Because Feeling involves personal relationship, it's easy to assume that using it is a matter of emotional preference. But like all left-brain functions, Fe is conceptual and analytic. It encourages us to make rational choices, to measure our options for relationship against an external standard of behaviors.
> 
> What distinguishes this function from Te is the fact that relatedness involves human beings, not impersonal abstractions. Thus, the systems that Feeling determines aren't logically accessible. For example, if we know the alphabet, we can always anticipate the logical order of names in a phone directory. Not so with a list of calling partners. Its specific order depends on the human being who taped it to the refrigerator. But the absence of logical predictability doesn't make a system unpredictable or based on individual preference.
> 
> *"Family," "friend," and "coworker" aren't states of emotion. They're categories of human alliance, organized by degree of relatedness. What we're doing, when we use these categories, is accommodating our specific experiences of people to the conceptual shapes the terms offer. This is a rational process, not a sentimental one.*





> Without question, social values have a strong moral component, enjoining the "right" ordering of our alliances and loyalties. Our increasing emphasis on direct experience has encouraged us to question traditional moral expectations, to note their effect on individual freedoms. But this is to miss the point of collective responsibility. Social values mark those areas of decision making that go beyond one person's immediate experience to affect the community as a whole.


http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/122974-extraverted-feeling.html



> Then something clicks inside his head and he totally abandons and rejects everything he's been so vigorously supported before and starts supporting politics of another, rival country. Says he was totally wrong about everything, been a fool, and then again - buys new flag of this another country, watches movies, listens to music made in this country only and calls everybody else brainwashed and says that only he is in the right place and so on.


This is the kind of whimsicalness you see in Te PoLR types. The problem is that they do not know what is actually better to support in a logical sense. I think it was cyamitide who wrote that you see this a lot in IEIs and systems of thought. There is a lot of trial and error involved, in how IEIs may for example think astrology is the best thing and explains everything, until one day it simply stops working and they realize the system was actually really bad and not at all great at what they thought it was great at. Then they will discard that system entirely. 



> This concerns not countries only of course. He's like that about everything. What is so odd to me is not quick and full abandonment of previous ideas and rigorous investment with new ones (it's all good and understandable), but almost worship-like support of either one side or the other side. There can't be in between. Someone is always right and someone is always wrong. If one side deemed "good" then it is good absolutely and unquestionably in everything, and if the other side is "bad", then it is wrong about everything absolutely and unquestionably as well. I find it very strange not to assume that there's a probability both sides may be wrong or that both sides may be right about something and wrong about something else.


Weak Ti, I reckon. Inability to construct a system of hierarchy that has nuance to it e.g. 1 2 3 4 5. Instead we are just left with 1 and 5, but 2 3 4 are all missing.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Entropic said:


> What you write here about logic definitely sounds like Fe to me. This is why Fe types need Ti types to help sort through their logic in a more subjective way, because they are very bad at drawing their own conclusions about things and when they do, it's more based on a feeling consensus of what people feel. It's logical because other people think it's logical. Fi ego types have Ti superego so have a much easier time to actually draw subjective logical conclusions though it's more Fi-based.


I am utterly lost at this point. Is there anything I can read that will get my up to scratch on why such weak consciousness functions are so superior to weak conscious functions? I mean, I would have thought that preferred functions would be stronger.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> What you write here about logic definitely sounds like Fe to me. This is why Fe types need Ti types to help sort through their logic in a more subjective way, because they are very bad at drawing their own conclusions about things and when they do, it's more based on a feeling consensus of what people feel. It's logical because other people think it's logical. Fi ego types have Ti superego so have a much easier time to actually draw subjective logical conclusions though it's more Fi-based.
> 
> Yeah, sounds Ti DS to me, not necessarily suggestive, but dual-seeking anyway.
> 
> ...


Thanks, now I'm 99% sure of Beta NF too.

I don't know even why he likes everything that goes beyond the norm, but he frequently mentions that he feels being different from everybody and weird, so maybe he deems these things to be a reflection of himself.



> This is really weak Te to me, and the kind of Te you see in superego Te types.
> 
> This is the kind of whimsicalness you see in Te PoLR types. The problem is that they do not know what is actually better to support in a logical sense. I think it was cyamitide who wrote that you see this a lot in IEIs and systems of thought. There is a lot of trial and error involved, in how IEIs may for example think astrology is the best thing and explains everything, until one day it simply stops working and they realize the system was actually really bad and not at all great at what they thought it was great at. Then they will discard that system entirely.


Million times yes to this! 

The very same story with astrology. He thought it's a great system explaining everything and saw patterns in himself and others, but then realized that it doesn't work the way he wanted and discarded it completely. 

Same thing happened with his interest in Kabbalah. He's been collecting all the information about it and been writing an encyclopedia of sorts that contained explanations of different terms, mythical creatures and whatnot for more than half a year. One day he returned from work, said that it's all bullshit and we together literally burned all the papers.

It also made me realize that Te PoLR is probably the biggest mystery to me, since I don't understand how it feels to be Te PoLR. Lol.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

To_august said:


> Yes, I've been thinking about possibility of LII, but Ti dom doesn't feel right.
> 
> He's not really a logically driven person, and many of his "logical" reasonings are just... well, more on a feeling side of things. It's like - if he believes that something/someone is right, therefore it/they is/are logical. For example, if he likes what person X says, their views correspond with his views, therefore that person makes the most sense and is logical, no matter whether things they are talking about make logical sense in and of themselves.


Reread what I wrote. What you say here isn't in opposition to LII, but is rather the definition of LII, and why I suggested it.

Reading through various posts in this thread, including your quote, the focus seems to be on base function and base function only. You have to look at how they interact with each other though.

LII has strong and valued Ti and weak and valued Si and Fe. Although LII is committed to logic, it is only the logic which allows him to freely Si/Fe as he so desires, picking and choosing what logic to ignore and what logic to pursue. The rules he sets in place as logically sound, the fenceposts and walls he erects meticulously, are only the ones in which benefit him personally. With a Ne focused on the essence of things, he is able to manipulate laws, rules, structures, etc for his own emotional and sensual enjoyment. With a weak and unvalued Fi, he is able to do so, free from attention to how others are affected, and shoves Ti in others' faces to protect his best situation. "Everyone in this world but me can die" is a very narcissistic and antisocial thing to say, and is most prevalent in LII and other types with Fi in the Super-ego. This is opposed to any type with a strong or valued Fi. For an EII, like myself, my "down on the world" statement is "I wish the world would just leave me alone." There is a very big difference between this and genocide.

IEI, in contrast, has Ni-Fe ego and Ti-Se super-id. By using emotions to connect others to his fantasy world, the IEI is able to gain Ti-Se, a power position among a social structure. Take, for instance, most INFP writings... Goofy and unwanted main character in a fantasy world, manages to get emotional warmth from some people, who realize how amazing his weirdness is, and ends up the best (most powerful) person among his class/school/town. Hairy Potter junk. IEI wants a fantasy of power and position.

Your uncle just sounds like a non-"mature" LII that wants to go around being a hedonist and is trying to logic through how this is correct and show it to others so they buy into it. His Ti is strong, so what he says at times may almost make sense (to an antisocial narcissist), but his Fe reasons behind it are like that of an emotionally inept child kicking and screaming over what they want.

Also, current society is primarily beta/delta, at least in the U.S.. So even if not LII, I doubt he would be so antisocial if he was beta or delta, as society is already suited for him.



> He likes everything unusual and everything that goes beyond the norm just for the sake of it, and *LGBT people* are one of those "unusualnesses" he likes. They differ in clothes, behaviour, opinion, sexual preferences, stand against the crowd, are different from everybody he knows. This is what really attracts him in everything - unusualness and *queerness*.


LMAO


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Jeremy8419 I really fail to see why an LII would like movies like Sin City and Kill Bill. They are Se fests. I'm not saying they can't, but I envision it more like Lord of the Rings where force is deemed bad and unnecessary and disruptive of the togetherness atmosphere that exists. I also don't see how Harry Potter is exemplary of IEI writing in fiction. It's very Ne Si.

Edit
There's a reason why my dad as an LII thought Gaiman's Stardust was amazing.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Fried Eggz said:


> I am utterly lost at this point. Is there anything I can read that will get my up to scratch on why such weak consciousness functions are so superior to weak conscious functions? I mean, I would have thought that preferred functions would be stronger.


Check out the dimensional theory.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Entropic said:


> @Jeremy8419 I really fail to see why an LII would like movies like Sin City and Kill Bill. They are Se fests. I'm not saying they can't, but I envision it more like Lord of the Rings where force is deemed bad and unnecessary and disruptive of the togetherness atmosphere that exists. I also don't see how Harry Potter is exemplary of IEI writing in fiction. It's very Ne Si.
> 
> Edit
> There's a reason why my dad as an LII thought Gaiman's Stardust was amazing.


You referenced such earlier in the thread, but movie "visuals" are Si, not Se. They are visual artistry where by colors shapes and sounds are working in tandem to create dynamic visual sensations. Similarly, raves are Si. Artwork, such as statues, paintings, jewellery, static visual qualities, would be Se.

Harry Potter wouldn't be Ne Si. Ni is the realm of detached fantasy. Ne is the realm of realistic fiction.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Jeremy8419 said:


> You referenced such earlier in the thread, but movie "visuals" are Si, not Se. They are visual artistry where by colors shapes and sounds are working in tandem to create dynamic visual sensations. Similarly, raves are Si. Artwork, such as statues, paintings, jewellery, static visual qualities, would be Se.
> 
> Harry Potter wouldn't be Ne Si. Ni is the realm of detached fantasy. Ne is the realm of realistic fiction.


Incorrect. Sensation is sensation first and therefore both Se and Si deal with visual impressions. However, they do that in very explicitly different ways. Se emphasizes powerful impressions that have direct forceful impact on the viewer. Strong and bold colors, shows of power and strength are all properties of Se visuals. Sin City is a perfect example of how visual impressions are used for the sake of emphasizing impact. Another thing about Se visuals is that there is a certain sharpness to the way the visuals are presented which I think is because Se sees each property of an object as separate or distinct as a quality, and stands on its own without needing to be connected with the rest of the visuals. In contrast, there's a softness to Si, seeking to create a deep sensory impression of the total representation of the visuals. Se is underlined by Ni and looks at subjective metaphors and meanings instead, like that image Kintsugi posted in a different thread. Another great example of Se visuals is the opening for True Detective. 

Si isn't the same as art. Anyone can be interested in art but it's how the art is presented and what one is trying to accomplish with it that suggests what cognition was being used in its production. This is extremely true for Harry Potter, because the driving point of the story is the fantastical world-building. Very focused on potential and how far you can really push an idea.

Furthermore, the story of a person who gains recognition and social prestige is a story trope and isn't related to cognition. 

https://youtu.be/ZRPpCqXYoos


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> I agree. The Ni one wasn't too shoddy, I admit though, given how my past discussions have been like. Though, I wonder if it's also not affected by the people we are around. I mean, if I'm around a lot of Se ego types, I think I am far more likely to begin to speak about future processes, visions, etc. than I would around some generic group of people. I've been in contact with what seems to be a very undualized SLE recently and most of my conversation with him has been me explaining the various connection points between events and how he should proceed and deal with the future, because he is clearly incapable of doing this on his own. It's oddly pitiful lol, and how it's such a clear Achilles heel for him as well. He's quite aware of the problem.


Ah, it makes sense then why I don't have a clue where to put my Si. There's no Ne leading types around and it seems like everybody on a mission to pull some Te from me instead. Why oh why do people always need efficiency hints and procedure instructions. Even the person I type here, needs permanent help in "which button to push" and "what should I do next to make this thing work". I guess if he were logical ego, he would have more ease with figuring out how things are done in logical sense.



Jeremy8419 said:


> Don't get me wrong, LII Ti goes way past simple emotional Ti manipulation. I work with several closely, closest uncle is one, deceased best friend was one, and a 6yr long former lover is one. *Day-to-day, they are excellent with Ti at work and outside work, and logically structure things with precision and ease.* However, these are not personal matters. When personal matters arise that involve their ability to Fe/Si, their valued weak functions, they WILL have their Fe/Si. If their ability to have these things is challenged, they will ignore Te, Fi, Se, and Ni, while manipulating the hell out of Ti, until they have a structure that allows their Fe/Se to be correct. When their desire for Fe/Si contradicts an existing structure, they will endlessly attempt to rationalize their wants/feelings. Since they are 4D in Ti, this usually boils down to a war of attrition, where the other person is like, "okay whatever have it your way," or just walks away.
> 
> You have unvalued Fe, which means he will be the one of the two of you who is openly emotive. Why? Because his Fe is a valued function. But take a step back and look at his Fe, his emotional displays. Aren't they extremely childish? Aren't they devoid of cultural norms? Incapable of using them appropriately in different situations? Lacking any knowledge of how they really use it over time? This is 1D Fe. 3D and 4D Fe never come off as emotionally ignorant concerning themselves or others. Contrastingly, they use it expertly, always emotionally connecting with others, and since 3D/4D Fe also means 3D/4D Fi, their applicability of their emotions does not make them ignorant of basic human interaction and interpersonal relationships. SEI/ESE may be a bit different compared to the rest of society, but they are usually quite "loveable" from their high Fe and their background high Fi that gives them ability of interpersonal psychological relationships. By contrast, not only is the LII incompetent, or at the least simplistic, with their Fe, they also have a weak and unvalued Fi. If they don't have excessive Normative interactions with Fi, or no firm, life-long Experience with Fi (usually via parents), they will have a very limited ability with Fi, which they already don't care about anyways. Unity, Impact on Others, Ability to Coexist... Your uncle not only fails at these things, but simultaneously doesn't give a F about them. If his Fe/Si fits right with a group, that's his group. Don't like it? He will Ti it away like you are logically retarded for not understanding his logic manipulations. His selflessness, Fi is unvalued and unfortunately is personally very weak, and as such... His way is the right way, and he will Ti until you also know it is the right way, regardless of how it affects you or anyone else? Why? Because y'all aren't him, so he doesn't care.


The bolded part^ In no way he's good at structuring anything. I have a hard time imagining that he can have rational and structured flow of thoughts or can be attuned to setting definitional boundaries for terms or concepts that Ti base types tend to do. He's not like that at all. Work-related or not, on many occasions I observed that he needs help in this area. I understand that you only deal with second-hand information and the guy can't speak for himself, and it can be interpreted in different ways, so it's my job to do reality check and see whether it fits or not in the bigger picture.

Dunno about his emotions. I think they are OK, way better than mine at least. He definitely wouldn't cry pathetically over some trifle, being unable to control emotions and struggling with realization why he is even doing it. <- I'm guilty as charged :th_sur:. But my Fe is in a very low and dark place, so I cannot be a good Fe indicator. He does seem to crave for emotional connection with others, otherwise he wouldn't cheer me up all the time or set most conversations in such a way that people can have a good laugh over something and share fun atmosphere.



> The person's uncle does seem to not value Te, but also possesses a lot of knowledge. This to me suggests Te in the id block.
> 
> Later on in this thread, OP talks about the uncle having poor people skills and seemingly being unable to properly interact with others. This to me suggest Fi in the Super Ego block.


He possesses a lot of knowledge only in areas he's interested in, namely history, geography and politics. All the rest just goes in one ear and out the other. Physics, languages, mathematics, anything even remotely concerning formulas, numbers and structures is boring gibberish to him. He doesn't gather facts, neither he's interested in them. Also, he's good at remembering flow of events and what event lead to which other one, but not for the sake of the world he will provide you with any precise dates, names or any other factual information. He has crappy memory for precise data and I think strong Te must be better with this.

Yes, he has poor people skills, but I wonder if this is not for the fact that he's extremely private person, and never really tried to interact properly with others outside his bubble. When he opens up, he can tell tons of interesting and insightful stuff actually (as much as illogical stupid shit on other occasions :laughing, but he's not active in this realm and prefers to keep things to himself, unless he's triggered in some way, then his verbalized stream of thought splatters all over the place.



> You're seeing: Yay! I love this system! Now I am loving this new thing! Yay! I love this new system!
> 
> I'm seeing: Yay! This system fits me perfectly! What? This system is really _this_?! Man... F that system! Yay! This other system fits me perfectly!
> 
> In both the example of the Fd political party and the mythology, the uncle dives into each and loves them. Then, upon learning more, realizing that his internal structure does not really match up with the system's internal structure, he vehemently rejects them. Then he finds another system that seems to match up.


It's more the former. He usually just finds another new system that contradicts the existing one. For some reason he takes a fancy with the new system, and thus completely discards the previous one. As far as I remember about my Kabbalah example, he became fascinated by Christian ideas (guess he bought some book that provided for the mind shift) and as it's been in conflict with Kabbalah, he discarded the latter. As for politics I'm less sure, but Perkins' "Confessions" played a significant role here, I think.

---
That said, I'm settling on IEI for him. Super ego intertype that is.
It also makes sense why he now supports the country that pushes Beta values, something he's missing IRL.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

@To_august 

How old is your uncle anyways? Any practical reason such as deformities or diseases that interfere with him connecting with others?


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> @_To_august_
> 
> How old is your uncle anyways? Any practical reason such as deformities or diseases that interfere with him connecting with others?


He's in his early forties. 

There's no deformities or diseases that I'm aware of. He's quite a handsome man and a fashionist. I'm not seeing any practical hindrances that may prevent him from connecting with people. If there is something, it's deep in his psyche. His strong introversion (I mean introversion in layman's terms), poor adaptability and life skills, shyness may also play a significant role in his attitude.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

To_august said:


> He's in his early forties.
> 
> There's no deformities or diseases that I'm aware of. He's quite a handsome man and a fashionist. I'm not seeing any practical hindrances that may prevent him from connecting with people. If there is something, it's deep in his psyche. His strong introversion (I mean introversion in layman's terms), poor adaptability and life skills, shyness may also play a significant role in his attitude.


Well, a lot of the interests you mentioned, odd politics, kabbalah, 40yr old man liking Madonna, etc., portrays that he often doesn't have the interests/hobbies that are popular. He may have been rebuked over his interests a lot early on, and caused him to close off to letting people get close.

If you know his type/quadra, perhaps you could get him to go to social places well-catered to it. Maybe an older crowd coffee shop / music place? I've seen portrayals of such that usually have people talking and joking about oddball politics and interests. Don't really equate to that well, so my examples are limited lol


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