# People claiming their cognitive functions are in a weird (impossible?) order



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

If Ni is the strongest, then he is either Ni Fe or Ni Te.

If Ti is truly that strong though, which contradicts the above, then he is Ne Ti.

MBTI Ni Fe=
Socionic Ni Fe=

MBTI Ni Te=
Socionic Ni Te=

MBTI Ne Ti=
Socionic Ne Ti=

I'd give him the descriptions of each etc..

I don't know about anyone else, but the socionic descriptions in the "best guide ever" threads are wrong. They give me Myers Briggs descriptions to what is a Socionic function orrder. I think Happy made a mistake honestly.

Anyone?


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## Lionness Roar (Apr 8, 2011)

DarkSideOfLight said:


> *Nobleheart* thank you for your answer. If my ex INFJ could speak as you write she wouln't be an ex
> 
> First of all pulling your age out of nowhere was a Ti deduction in action. Ne explosion that is a fact - I've seen something interesting and I went for a question-mark spamming action hehe. Second, I kind of like the logic model you used I wish I could simplify any logical proves this way couple years back on my assesments. I would just take the 3Bs out of there as far as I get your idea it might be confusing. I bet someone started to think what functions need 3 elements to be developed/mimicked haha.
> 
> ...


Do you speak English?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Lionness Roar said:


> Do you speak English?


It's ENTP. Luckily, I have an ENTP friend, so I'm conversational.


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## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

Lionness Roar said:


> Do you speak English?


Did you write anything that would even slightly touch the subject we are talking about in this thread?
If you want be so formal then start with reading definition of spam. Netiquette is a natural next step 



Nobleheart said:


> It's ENTP. Luckily, I have an ENTP friend, so I'm conversational.


And God bless you for being able to see that  I do prefer to talk then write for sure. So my written English is damn formal. And so far people are able to understand what I write. Even the fact that English is my 3rd language doesn't change that heh.

Another thing that I was thinking about is order of two first functions. It happens for me that I'm either Ne or Ti dominant this makes me think that I'm ambivert. I definitely have spend my childhood in Ne, but recently I Ti most of the time. In this case having two strong main functions couse switching between being an introvert to extrovert back and forth. 

Do you think that strongly developed second function could take over the personality and change the way person energize himself and order of prefered functions?


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Ok, I need help with something. Whenever I take the cognitive functions tests (both the Per C and the Keys 2), My order goes 

Ni-Ne-Fe-Fi-Ti-Se-Te-Si

Which apparently is impossible. Am I doing something wrong, or are the quizzes just not accurate?

It still says I am INFJ based on those results. And I understand the individual functions, and somewhat how they work together. My results are always just screwy.

Is it better to study the functions individually and determine from there which I am most comfortable using?


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

Again, as was mentioned earlier, that's just showing your N-F preference, and you happen to have strength in the behaviors of both attitudes of both functions. But still favoring Ni and Fe, which is what makes the type. (Think of it as your function strength "spilling over" into the opposite orientations).


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Eric B said:


> Again, as was mentioned earlier, that's just showing your N-F preference, and you happen to have strength in the behaviors of both attitudes of both functions. But still favoring Ni and Fe, which is what makes the type. (Think ot it as your function strength "spilling over" into the opposite orientations).


So as long as the functions are in the proper order (ie. the Ni, the Fe, the Ti, etc) for my type, it doesn't matter that the Ni and Ne for instance are side by side, because my preference is still Ni? Same with Fe?


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

The functions can come out in any order, because they are using behaviors as the measure for function "use". But behavior, while being a _possible_ indicator of functional preference, can still be affected by many different things. So it will vary according to the person's experience and maturity.

Most people, it comes out close to Lenore Thomson's "ship" order, with the inferior as the weakest, and the inferior's shadow (with the opposite attitude, or the opposite of the dominant but with the same attitude) as being strong. Others, it is more like yours, where we pretty much see the four functions in their proper order, with the two different attitudes "bundled" together. It was possible for it to not even come in that much of an order. You could have gotten NiNeFiFe... I remember a couple of people over on TypoC who had stuff like this. This again would likely be shaped by how much your experience matches the behaviors associated with the functions. It also might reflect some sort of inbetween preference, especially when correlated with a temperament system that has inbetween poles (moderate scales). Like a temperament called Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control will sort of be inbetween an SJ and an NF, and this will throw the functions off. You'll likely see both Si and Ne or perhaps both Ji's or Je's strong, and they'll be all over the place in trying on different types.

But for you, it's a clear NF preference, with the Ni and Fe stronger than their shadows, so it fits INFJ, so there's no need to worry about the relative "strength" of the other function-attitudes.


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## Invidia (Feb 26, 2011)

Eric B said:


> The functions can come out in any order, because they are using behaviors as the measure for function "use". But behavior, while being a _possible_ indicator of functional preference, can still be affected by many different things. So it will vary according to the person's experience and maturity.
> 
> Most people, it comes out close to Lenore Thomson's "ship" order, with the inferior as the weakest, and the inferior's shadow (with the opposite attitude, or the opposite of the dominant but with the same attitude) as being strong. Others, it is more like yours, where we pretty much see the four functions in their proper order, with the two different attitudes "bundled" together. It was possible for it to not even come in that much of an order. You could have gotten NiNeFiFe... I remember a couple of people over on TypoC who had stuff like this. This again would likely be shaped by how much your experience matches the behaviors associated with the functions. It also might reflect some sort of inbetween preference, especially when correlated with a temperament system that has inbetween poles (moderate scales). Like a temperament called Melancholy Phlegmatic in Control will sort of be inbetween an SJ and an NF, and this will throw the functions off. You'll likely see both Si and Ne or perhaps both Ji's or Je's strong, and they'll be all over the place in trying on different types.
> 
> But for you, it's a clear NF preference, with the Ni and Fe stronger than their shadows, so it fits INFJ, so there's no need to worry about the relative "strength" of the other function-attitudes.


Thank you so much for the explanation, it makes perfect sense now


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## nikkiannpet (Mar 22, 2011)

Ne and Fe are strong but Ni and Fi are only moderate :/ I thought that would have been impossible because I am an ENFP. And upon reading Socionics, I just do not understand how cognitive functions work anymore.:crazy:


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## Eric B (Jun 18, 2010)

nikkiannpet said:


> Ne and Fe are strong but Ni and Fi are only moderate :/ I thought that would have been impossible because I am an ENFP. And upon reading Socionics, I just do not understand how cognitive functions work anymore.:crazy:


Are you sure you're not an ENTP or ESFJ?
Otherwise, it could just mean that you're so extraverted, that you identified more with "Fe behaviors" in the questions, but your F standard is reall introverted.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

DarkSideOfLight said:


> Do you think that strongly developed second function could take over the personality and change the way person energize himself and order of prefered functions?


Absolutely.

Introverted functions recharge by introverting. Extroverted functions recharge by extroverting. The more developed a function is, the more demand it will place on you to recharge it, regardless of which preference order that function resides in. Someone who has more developed introverted functions than extroverted functions will need to introvert more often, but still have some need to extrovert from time to time. Someone who has roughly equal development in their introverted and extroverted functions (an ideal situation) will need to introvert and extrovert in equal measure, gaining energy from both in turn.

In addition, the more developed a function is, the more able that function is able to take over in instances where it is primary. For example, an ENTP with a strong Ti can _develop_ the ability to put Ti first in certain situations in which the ENTP's mind has learned that Ti preference is more advantageous. This is also the case with all of a person's functions regardless of order. The only factors are how developed the function is, and how familiar with the situation the person is. These are temporary effects based on the functions higher in the preference order stepping aside to allow the lower functions room to work - so please don't assume that I'm saying the function order literally changes. (Also note that this is the same effect of function switching as when we are stressed.)

Here is a more descriptive example. The ENTP learns how to do a very Ti math process. At first, the ENTP is going to approach this process with Ne then Ti. However, the more the ENTP does this process, the quicker the ENTP skips Ne until there is very little more than a flash of Ne as it recognizes that the answer to the situation is Ti. Eventually, the ENTP just goes straight to Ti out of reflex in those situations, as Ne does not protest... and that's really the point. The higher function preference does not protest. If the two ever get into conflict, the ENTP is normally compelled to go with Ne, unless Ne decides to agree with Ti. If the person were an INTP, Ti would have to agree to allow Ne room to operate, but an INTP is just as capable of going into a full Ne mode when Ti moves aside.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

Nobleheart said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Introverted functions recharge by introverting. Extroverted functions recharge by extroverting. The more developed a function is, the more demand it will place on you to recharge it, regardless of which preference order that function resides in. Someone who has more developed introverted functions than extroverted functions will need to introvert more often, but still have some need to extrovert from time to time. Someone who has roughly equal development in their introverted and extroverted functions (an ideal situation) will need to introvert and extrovert in equal measure, gaining energy from both in turn.
> 
> ...


Can you help me with this. What is the difference between introversion and subjectivity?

If Fe extends outwardly for an extroverted user, do they do so because of their introverted Ti or Pi, or because of the inner subjectivity of Fe?

I know its been said a lot, but, there IS a subjective point of view in every function, or, they must work in pairs to have a subjective point of view?


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## amnorvend (May 16, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Introverted functions recharge by introverting. Extroverted functions recharge by extroverting. The more developed a function is, the more demand it will place on you to recharge it, regardless of which preference order that function resides in. Someone who has more developed introverted functions than extroverted functions will need to introvert more often, but still have some need to extrovert from time to time. Someone who has roughly equal development in their introverted and extroverted functions (an ideal situation) will need to introvert and extrovert in equal measure, gaining energy from both in turn.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying and agree, but I think you may be giving the wrong impression. I think what the person you were responding to was asking is if an ENTP's Ti could become so strong that it "takes over" and turns the person into an INTP, which won't happen (as you seem to be getting at).

I think a better analogy to illustrate your point might be spoken languages. For instance, I'm an English speaker (obviously). Of course, that won't be any good to me if I go to Mexico. For that, I need to learn Spanish. I might become fluent in Spanish, and I might even learn to enjoy using it. But no matter what, I'm always going to be an English speaker. Function preferences work in the same way. They reflect choices that you've made, albeit choices that you made so early on in life that you can't go back and rewire your brain to work another way. In my case, I'm an extraverted intuitive who has learned to use introverted feeling. As I grow more comfortable with it, I've learned to use it in cases where Ne isn't appropriate. Sometimes I might superficially resemble an introverted feeler, but no matter what I do, Ne will always be king (consciously that is).


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## amnorvend (May 16, 2010)

Souled In said:


> Can you help me with this. What is the difference between introversion and subjectivity?
> 
> If Fe extends outwardly for an extroverted user, do they do so because of their introverted Ti or Pi, or because of the inner subjectivity of Fe?
> 
> I know its been said a lot, but, there IS a subjective point of view in every function, or, they must work in pairs to have a subjective point of view?


I see objectivity as being free from personal bias. For instance, you could say that the difference between introverted and extraverted sensation is that extraverted sensation considers all sensory experiences to be precious (and therefore seeks out new experiences). Introverted sensation on the other hand is concerned with choosing the sensations that are favorable to you.

By the same token, an Fi user will consider feeling in a subjective manner. If an introverted feeler notes that a friend is sad, they may find themselves asking "How would I feel in this person's situation? And how would I want to be cheered up?" An extraverted feeler would ask themselves "Is this how this person is _supposed_ to feel given the circumstances? How am I supposed to react?"


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

amnorvend said:


> I see objectivity as being free from personal bias. For instance, you could say that the difference between introverted and extraverted sensation is that extraverted sensation considers all sensory experiences to be precious (and therefore seeks out new experiences). Introverted sensation on the other hand is concerned with choosing the sensations that are favorable to you.
> 
> By the same token, an Fi user will consider feeling in a subjective manner. If an introverted feeler notes that a friend is sad, they may find themselves asking "How would I feel in this person's situation? And how would I want to be cheered up?" An extraverted feeler would ask themselves "Is this how this person is _supposed_ to feel given the circumstances? How am I supposed to react?"


I love your S example.

How about this for F:

Whos judgment do you trust more?
Fi--------------------------Fe
Self-----------------------People


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## amnorvend (May 16, 2010)

Souled In said:


> I love your S example.
> 
> How about this for F:
> 
> ...


I think that's a good way to look at it. In fact, you might even say that Fi will disagree with other peoples' judgement simply because it's another person's judgement. And that Fe will tend to trust other peoples' judgements for the same reason.

One of my favorite quotes is from Paul Graham which goes something like this (quoting from memory):



> Rebellion is almost as stupid as obedience. Either way, you're still letting yourself be defined by someone else.


...which to me illustrates that introversion isn't _necessarily_ more individualistic, nor is extraversion necessarily conformist. The true route to individuation is to choose between the two as it suits you.


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## nikkiannpet (Mar 22, 2011)

Eric B said:


> Are you sure you're not an ENTP or ESFJ?
> Otherwise, it could just mean that you're so extraverted, that you identified more with "Fe behaviors" in the questions, but your F standard is reall introverted.


No, I am positive I am an ENFP.
I thought that, too! But I read into ENFP a little more and felt I relate to Fi as well....


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

amnorvend said:


> I think that's a good way to look at it. In fact, you might even say that Fi will disagree with other peoples' judgement simply because it's another person's judgement. And that Fe will tend to trust other peoples' judgements for the same reason.
> 
> One of my favorite quotes is from Paul Graham which goes something like this (quoting from memory):
> 
> ...


Mithral. Nice.


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## Lionness Roar (Apr 8, 2011)

Nobleheart said:


> It's ENTP. Luckily, I have an ENTP friend, so I'm conversational.


Lol....so now you know that it was the P that sometimes hurts.  Perception is a tough one, unless you have a friend that helps you along the way. Then, the P is not so mind blowing.


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