# 5 vs 9 apathy



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

cir said:


> "Fear forgotten" is not only a descriptive label, but it's a warning! I don't think you need to stick with the darkness for too long in a single session; I think regular practice at touching it would be more helpful. Being in touch with your emotions would make it more likely that you'll remember it, and if you can't consciously remember it, your body probably has the memory already encoded and stored...


Yeah, it's definitely stored/encoded in my body. I'm becoming more and more aware of this. :/



> Aah... that sounds like a rephrased type one fear. Hmm... not sure if what I say is helping or not, but if you have enough faith that you are not your feelings in spite of the pain and darkness, then you should find within you a core of light that would light the way. Point 7 is "introduction to enlightenment" so...
> 
> Then the next thing is making sure you don't lose yourself to the light.


Ohh, does this make me a type 1 now?! (or am I jumping to clumsy conclusions again, lol). A few people have typed me as core 1, but idk if it's just a strong connection to it...(open to any suggestions)

The thing is, conceptually, I _know_ I'm not my feelings...but in practice, somewhere I keep going wrong. I think it's because I (mentally and emotionally) run away and "numb" myself, I'm not processing stuff fully. I wouldn't say I don't feel things, I can actually be pretty emotional at times but it usually hits me unexpectedly, like a ton of bricks, BAM. I always feel much better after though (when it isn't drug or alcohol induced). Catharsis.

I think I've lost myself to the light....many times. There is definitely a pattern. :/

EDIT: errr, this thread got derailed (sorry!) @cir you can PM me if you want xD


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> It's the one where, after you experience enough of it (on the magnitude of vice:lust, so there's no mistake you'd _really *really really*_ feel it), you'd snap and willingly choose to die than to continue experiencing. As if the outside world, the shadow, is dispensing some kind of "justice" in _at least_ an equal amount that an eight sends to the outside world, and *you'd have to take it back*.


Only failure to protect those I love. Nothing else comes close. Also, revenge is always simmering in my the back of the core of who I am, to take it back or get it back, the sense of what I feel I lost. It's a very literal loss in relation to a sense of loss of innocence. It's not related to the fear of failing those I love.


> This is also kind of interesting, because the shadow-unifying theme of the "power seeking" 2-5-8 triad is one's *own* submission. I chose to submit willingly.
> 
> The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Resistance
> 
> ...


Seriously though, I should push myself to the point to know what I can handle? I know what I can and can't handle because I've already been down there in the past and I certainly do not have any desire or motivation go down that road again, because I'm finally in the first time in my life, slowly becoming truly healthy. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to disrupt that development by tossing myself down into the abyss again on purpose to see if it will affect or not (of course it will because I'm not that stupid). Again, you don't understand what I was trying to assert. When I make claims about what others do that piss me off, it's only so because I am suggesting it says something about what I myself dislike. That was the only point of what was being made but you didn't understand that. It is a reflection of myself. 

Also, I could never make sense of that Spiritual Enneagram website. Nothing on it makes sense because whoever wrote that has zero inclination to create a natural logical flow to explain wtf they mean with the stuff written on it.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Also, I could never make sense of that Spiritual Enneagram website. Nothing on it makes sense because whoever wrote that has zero inclination to create a natural logical flow to explain wtf they mean with the stuff written on it.


Helen Palmer is good with putting the enneagram into clear, logically understandable form, I like her stuff for that reason. There's many different approaches.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> Helen Palmer is good with putting the enneagram into clear, logically understandable form, I like her stuff for that reason. There's many different approaches.


Not a big fan of Palmer, though.


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## sittapygmaea (Aug 24, 2014)

cir said:


> Oh man, @Figure had some interesting stories about that. Nines can be pretty cruel. At their worst, their mindset is that "all of these problems are not really important enough to be problems", even if "those problems" is in how the nine interacts with their "loved" ones. They're pretty good at personally negating the importance of things, which is ultimately how they alienate people. Because the people around the nines don't feel like the nines love or care about them. That's how nines hurt people, and that's another thing their numbness/narc'ing out prevents them from realizing.


This is a very insightful description of Nine cruelty. So far in my life I'm not sure I've experienced anything more unbearably hurtful than this behavior from an unhealthy 9. I can think of nothing more knife-in-the-gut painful than being negated and treated as utterly unimportant by someone who claims to love and care for you. "Cruel" is an apt adjective, especially given the denial that accompanies this behavior in my experience (Why are you upset? I didn't do anything at all. You're in deep despair? *Shrug* I'm busy watching tv and staring into the middle distance.) 

I am married to a type 5, INTJ and he can certainly be emotionally removed. As a type 4, this required adjustment. Over time, however, I saw how manifest his love for me was _in his behavior_. Although explicit expressions of emotion have value, I *need* my importance to a person I love to be clearly demonstrated in their behavior day in, day out. For me, this creates a deep feeling of security and importance in a relationship, a solid foundation on which to build. On the other hand, hearing a person say that I am loved and important while they can't even be bothered to pay attention to me, much less demonstrate my value to them... I personally can't tolerate that. I'd rather have someone believe I was worthless and tell me I was worthless than tell me I was important while behaving with indifference. 

I would say that 5s are not apathetic in the sense of being _genuinely indifferent_, but they are typically very guarded about their emotional responses. They feel highly exposed when they express their emotions, or even feel their emotions, so they build up walls between their conscious thoughts and their feelings in order to protect themselves. Although this can make talking about feelings difficult, the feelings are still present and expressed in all kinds of ways. In my experience, fives are quite emotional and these emotions are quite easy to read once you know them well enough to observe their behavior patterns over time and discern the language of their emotional idiolect. The fact that fives are, at the core, very emotionally vulnerable makes me feel very warm and protective towards them. These feelings allow me to be more patient with them, even when they get defensively stony in their average-to-unhealthy moments. 

On the other hand, nines don't just hide their stronger emotions, they actively reject them (and, in the process, reject the people who elicit strong emotions from them). Such emotions are disturbing and disruptive; they stress the nine out, so the nine seeks to deny them. Nine's are apathetic in the sense of not accepting or identifying with certain emotions. These emotions are treated as extraneous, unpleasant garbage that would ideally be barred from the perfectly tranquil, undisturbed ocean of their desired state. 

Having said all this, I want to make clear that I have also known some healthy, deeply caring, open, and expressive nines, whom I love and love to be around. A healthy nine is a thing of beauty (@yippy is a great example :hearteyes. But, for me, being 'loved' by an average to unhealthy nine is ultimately very painful.


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## yippy (May 21, 2014)

@sittapygmaea

:blushed: :love_heart: Is it pay a compliment to yippy day? Can we make this an annual event? 

About healthy/unhealthy nines....

Unhealthy:









Healthy:









I think I can say I am a healthy nine and I am not apathetic at all towards the problems of others. I realize that the world isn't perfect, life isn't peaceful & lovely for everyone. I want it to be though, which is why I help others to the best of my abilities. However just like the world isn't perfect I am not perfect either. I will falter. I will let you down sometimes. There comes a moment I am overwhelmed by the problems of others (and possibly my own) and I will want to escape from them for a moment. In the end I will come back though....in the end I'll always fix it.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I see type Nine apathy as related to the disconnect from Holy Love. Holy Love is not the act of loving or being loved, but the experience of reality as nonconceptual positivity. Reality isn't neutral but is actually all good and meaningful and made of love. 

Since Nines are disconnected from Holy Love, they experience that pleasant, lovable, meaningfulness as something that comes and goes rather than being ever present. 

This sets the type as residing somewhere between two opposite states:
Healthy: All is love
Unhealthy: All is indifference

Lower Nines may be apathetic because they are far from Holy Love and closer to its opposite. The apathetic state of the Nine is like being stranded in a desert where there is nothing of interest, and if any life forms come around, they must be cold and indifferent and will soon leave. The unhealthy Nine might project indifference everywhere and feel ignored, neglected, and overlooked, while in actuality they are the ones ignoring and neglecting the world, overlooking its goodness. The irony is that they use indifference as a defense against their own indifference which they've projected onto the world. 

Sloth is the mechanism behind this indifference. It's the habit of paying little attention to parts of their interiority, of forgetting their frustrations and desires. Because of this, an unhealthy degree of Sloth comes with a significant reduction in the ability to feel. R&H describe unhealthy Nines as "ineffectual", "anhedonic", and "numb". The repression isn't something they do consciously or on purpose, which makes it hard for them to get out of that state. 

I think according to Naranjo, Fives are the hyper-sensitives who detach from their feelings in order to function more effectively, whereas Nines are characterized by "a psychological amputation that makes him the least sensitive and most stoic of characters."


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## Ballast (Jun 17, 2013)

This conversation has been going on for awhile, and I apologize if I've missed any of the finer points. I just wanted to chime in on my recent experience with 5 versus 9 dynamics, from the perspective of a short lived romantic relationship.

I'm a 5, and what drew me to this 9 was his even-tempered calmness, detachment from strong emotions, and easy-going nature. I can be a little uptight and anxious, and in my life I have dealt with overly emotional people who use emotions as weapons. So our shared detachment from strong emotions was a selling point. I have also known a lot of 9s in my life and have had positive experiences with them. My dad is a 9 ISTP and we get along very well. I think I am pretty comfortable with the lack of emotional intensity in these types, and their allowance to live and let live. They're not value imposers, and as an INTJ I can't stand having values imposed on me. 

But, my type moniker (5w6) is "the problem solver" and this became a huge problem when faced with an unhealthy 9 who literally blitzed himself out to avoid dealing with life. I saw a lot of problems and my security-mindedness led me to desperately seek out solutions, which I sensed was a problematic dynamic in itself. I left this person the moment I realized he was incapable of even acknowledging that there were problems, let alone solving them. 

So, what was similar: we both disengaged from reality by focusing on intellectual pursuits and studying topics of alternate realities and consciousness exploration. We were emotionally dampened and related to each other more intellectually or mentally than overtly emotionally or romantically. We steered away from emotional extremes. The mind-mating was nothing short of awesome.

What was different: his lack of boundaries, sense of self-preservation, or attention to resources made me feel threatened. I am the embodiment of avarice in the sense of protecting the few resources I feel make me safe, while he would give anything and everything away without thought. I asked him if he knew himself, and while he was thoughtful and intelligent he couldn't answer me. Knowing the self is the strongest defense we have, _knowing_ is the strongest weapon we have, how could one not _know?_ Or _want_ to know? Why would one run from the only thing one can control (from the 5's perspective)? He was the type to form a vague identity based on those around him, whereas that very notion is repugnant to me. The self is the only thing we have full control over; I would never let my sense of self be defined by others outside of me because then they would have more control over me than I do. Suddenly I'd find myself at the whim of others rather than in control of my own energetic resources. The lack of self control or self definition from this 9 just drove me crazy. It drove the 6 part of my personality insane. 



hornet said:


> Many nines are in environments that attack any initiative they show in a positive direction.
> It is like trying to rise from the mud knowing full well that someone is ready to kick you in the gut halfway up.
> How many times will you try to rise before you give up.


A 5 faces this by defining exactly what they have control over: what they can know. They take an inner orientation, defining themselves internally and not allowing the outer world to influence them as much. An unhealthy 5 will withdraw further and further from the world, not realizing that you _need_ the outer world to form a healthy engagement with the self. We begin to distrust others and rely on ourselves as much as possible. But for us, it isn't disengagement from our needs, it's just a reassigning of priorities. 

I have the hardest time understanding personality types that depend on others for their sense of being and acting in the world, such as 2s or 3s, for that reason. It's a vulnerability I would never want to give to others, and perhaps that is why the 9's detachment appeals to me, at least at first.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

A lot of good insights in this thread.

I'd like to elaborate on the nine process as I see a lot of unhealty nine hate here.
As one who have been to the pits of indifference several times during my life 
I can say that when you are there you see no solution.
Subjectively it is like you are suspended in jelly and every movement of will takes a lot of effort.
You are not really concious of why you are in this state, usually you are fixated on something else.
Some sort of narcing out activity to replace everything you don't want to face.
Now and then a fragment of what you try to avoid rears it's head and you quickly retreat back to narcotization.

The exit of narcing out is in my opinion starting to focus on basic upkeep tasks and expand the importance
of the tasks you allow yourself to consider. Mentally you are like a little skinny kid in the gym.
You need to start with the lightest weights and build from there.
The biggest issue for a nine is that people around the nine insist 
*that some of the heaviest weights in the gym needs lifting NOW!!!
*Confronted with this dillemma many nines will just stay in apathy, 
as the process back will be resisted by people who know the nine.
They have no patience to observe the nine practicing actually getting the willpower to say brush the teeth.
The irony is that the demands of others are a major obstacle to the nine.
So nagging a more or less catatonic nine about getting a job is a good way to make sure the nine never gets a job.
Cause now you have created a need in the nine to avoid it even more.
A nine left alone for long enough will come back by themself.
No matter how painful it is to leave the nine the hell alone that is mostly the right thing.
Unless you really know what is going on with the nine and manage to to engage them in a meaningful way.
In most cases this is not the case and your meddling/nagging/whatever will be counterproductive.


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## Ballast (Jun 17, 2013)

Wow, @_hornet_ . Good insight.

The 9 I dealt with recently was at the unhealthy levels. Like, can't brush teeth or get a job, completely dependent on others unhealthy. But most of the 9s I know are in the middle ground, and you did a great job of illuminating the dynamic between an average 9 and an unhealthy 2 I know who have lost control of their relationship but are so far in at this point neither of them can get it back. And this is exactly what happens: the 2 nags to gain control and goad the 9 into caring about her, and the 9 simply ignores her and is repelled further. He is entirely functional otherwise (and pours all of that energy into his job/hobbies) but has more or less disengaged from the relationship. 

I'll admit that when I had this experience with the unhealthy 9 my first instinct was to start looking at all the heavy weights he needed to lift _*right now.*_ My perspective is that we all have to lift these weights, and it doesn't make sense that one kid should be exempt just because he "doesn't feel like it." I do understand now that for you guys it's more than that, but to me, at the time, I thought he was spoiled and coddled by his easy comfortable life that allowed him to live that way. You can choose not to brush your teeth, but you don't get to keep them healthy. You can choose not to earn money and pay bills, but then you don't get electricity. I didn't understand his lack of urgency into these matters, and at the time I chalked it up to his having an easy lifestyle where everyone else just provided for him and no one expected him to have any responsibilities. My life expected more of me.

I never said anything, and not saying anything created a huge tension that I eventually handled by walking away, because just as you said I _sensed_ he would not be willing, or even able, to change and that I needed to get. That I needed to take responsibility for my need for control and resource management by getting rid of a relationship I couldn't change and honoring my own values. That's pretty much all you can do. But I admit to feeling very confused and frustrated for a long time about this. I think you're right that unhealthy 9s have little motivation to change when everyone around them, who already expects them to be operating at _base line,_ is going to expect so much more than that when they get there. 

Addendum: It occurs to me after re-reading both of our posts that 9s, being in the gut triad, are so disconnected from their bodies that they fundamentally lack the sense of importance in physical matters in the way that a 5, who is also detached from the physical, would have. We are very aware of how the physical can encroach on our safety and control and we respond to this fear by consciously interacting with it: we minimize our needs and eliminate as many physical variables as possible. You'll see us go to the store and buy ten of the same shirt because we know we like it and don't want to bother with the guess work. We'll wear the same pair of shoes for years on end because we don't want to have to change. We might eat bland or repetitive foods because we don't want to have to think about the intrusion of new physical experiences. It seems to me that 9s are putting less conscious thought into how they interact with the outer world. They aren't trying to control it or how they experience it in the same way. 

On that note, does anybody have any experience with 9s who are Fs versus 9s who are Ts?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Both types can be highly apathetic and detached. 9s adopt an attitude of indifference but is also an attachment type and is as such very focused on the "merging" with the environment, but at the same time the 9 is never truly a part of the life around them, stuck going through the motions and is very resistant to being affected or to change their pace of how they move through the world, which is why they are a part of the withdrawn triad. Then there's the 5, that fears participation and may don a detached and emotionally indifferent attitude as well, rather seeking to observe than to actively engage. It stays outside of the active life, and may even experience themselves as third party observers not just observing what they are observing, but observing themselves observing. As such, it's easy to see why they are a withdrawn type.
> 
> What are the differences between the two types? Is 9 apathy more or less existential compared to the 5 apathy? What does it mean to be apathetic or to embrace apathy? What does it mean when we claim that nothing matters and how do the two types frame this differently?


5s: "The world has no meaning"
9s: "I have not meaning"

5's apathy manifests more as existential nihilism and often leads to depression and isolation.


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Both can experience a sense of apathy and existential nihilism, feeling that nothing has value or meaning. Apart from retreating from the world, they react very different to this feeling.




The apathy/nihilism of the *5 *enforces the need to hoard. Clinging to the bare essentials (essential to the 5; can be physical hoarding or intellectual hoarding.) A giving up on expanding. The focus is on the deepening of their understanding (high investment!) and the retainment of it.



The apathy/nihilism of the *9* enforces the need to give up and let go of everything, including themselves. Because why bother? A giving up on needing to be present. The focus is on the path of least resistance. Stay vague and don't invest yourself too much.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 5s: "The world has no meaning"
> 9s: "I have not meaning"
> 
> 5's apathy manifests more as existential nihilism and often leads to depression and isolation.


Sloth refers to a loss of inwardness, but it doesn't necessarily involve a conscious devaluing of the self in the sense of "I have no meaning". Of course I do, I just don't know how to be fully present and really live. The _self_ isn't necessarily devalued so much as _inhabiting the self_ (and by extension, the world). Type 9 isn't about low self-esteem but about being disengaged because Holy Love (the experience of the world as "nonconceptual positivity") is seen as something that comes and goes. So Nines want to be present for those things that are pleasant and go to sleep for those things that are not pleasant. 

Anyways, like @Draconic said, both Fives and Nines can be nihilistic. For me it's like this:

9(w8): Who cares whether the world has meaning. It doesn't interest me.

It's like Fives have an overt type of nihilism where they might obsess over the meaninglessness of the world, which I could see them coming to via overanalyzing, whereas Nines have a covert form where everything might as well be meaningless to them because they are so disengaged and apathetic. In my case, it can feel like all is nothingness when nothing interests me. But it's like, so what? I don't _think _that the world is meaningless, it's just that it can seem like there's not enough there. So maybe the difference is that the Five's nihilism is mental and the Nine's nihilism is more gut/experiential.

I think the origins of their nihilism are different as well. R&H describe the Five's nihilism as related to a fear of attachment. Fear of attachment/engulfment is something common in Fives, but probably uncommon in Nines. For the Nine it comes from experiencing the world as indifference, the opposite of Holy Love. 



R&H said:


> Indeed, their need to reject what others believe is so strong that they take pleasure in debunking whatever is positive in life, trying to prove the virtual impossibility of human relationships and the complete rottenness at the core of human nature. Unhealthy Fives take delight in deflating what they see as the bourgeois illusions by which others get through life so comfortably, and to which they have not fallen prey because of their greater intellectual honesty.
> ....
> Attachment to others is too threatening at this stage, so unhealthy Fives must justify their isolation by becoming nihilistic and cynical about all relationships, indeed, about the value of humanity itself.


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## Sweetish (Dec 17, 2009)

Here's something I learned from being in a relationship with an enneagram type 9:










I can recall several conversations in which I was attempting to get a strong sentiment out of my partner about something, but it just wasn't registering in my partner's thoughts, the gravity and the meaning and the implication of what I was saying and doing. Then suddenly it would just click, the realization would set in, my partner would be in a sort of shock, like being awoken from a daze, and in that instant totally change attitude 180 degrees and acknowledge the profundity of the situation. Those were usually positive moments, but short-lived. I had to be incredibly patient in the meantime, and it honestly was the most tedious aspect of our relationship- waiting for my type 9 partner to "snap out of it".

We each learned how to push the other person's buttons in a more negative way to drive each other out of our respective states of apathy. It wasn't pretty, and it was typically a last resort.

What I say regarding disappointment is to: Keep your expectations low, but your hopes high. I do care, because I want to care. I don't want to dampen that or tone that down. I simply don't want to overestimate or underestimate the potential in anything. I want to be able to enjoy it for what it is, as it is, and to not eliminate disappointment altogether, but simply lessen it and its effect on me by keeping my perception balanced.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 5s: "The world has no meaning"
> 9s: "I have not meaning"
> 
> 5's apathy manifests more as existential nihilism and often leads to depression and isolation.


And when you have both like me, then neither me nor the world has meaning.
Luckily I've dragged myself out of that pit now, and i hope to never visit it again.


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## shallnotbenamed (Dec 19, 2014)

-


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## shallnotbenamed (Dec 19, 2014)

Being an INTP(5w6 in MBTI basically lol) and an Enneagram 9(at least so far) I'll try. I also have INTP 5 friends so I can make out some differences.

-The 5 is more grounded/reality based.
-The 9 is more cloudy/fantasy based.
-The 5 will have strong, rigid opinions on things. 5s aren't nearly as accepting as 9s. 
-The 9's opinions are mostly half-assed like something someone says after waking up. They mostly don't care enough to have opinions or even venture into something.

The 5 needs reason to do something. The 9 needs inertia to get started. 
The 5 has nihilistic apathy. They are active, just not interested.
The 9 has pure laziness transforming into apathy. They are not actively involved. 

The 5s ultimate desire is to be at peace with things around them, and have control and knowledge over them(correct me if I'm wrong). The 9s ultimate desire is to be at complete mental peace in a deep sleep of orgasmic joy they won't be woken up from. 

-The 5 can ground themselves and get to studying before an exam. The 9 will just roll around in bed and groan about it. 
-The 5 will have more trouble with people because of their highly logical ways. The 9 will be more people-pleasant. 
-A healthy 5(especially 5w6) is very genuine and truthful. A healthy 9 is very accepting and loving(which makes me wonder wtf I am because I'm not unhealthy but I'm not loving either..). 
-The 5 is never "asleep when awake". The 9 can be. 

Here's an example: Someone neither the 9 nor 5 know personally has committed suicide in their area.
-The 5 will find some irony or comedy in the situation and crack an earnest, genuine joke. Their first instinct will be to analyse the situation and find something they can like about it.
-The 9 will first go "oh, damn"...then... "but I don't know him, it doesn't matter to me. Whew!" and then laugh at the jokes, or take the initiative to make some.

Then someone gets mad at both of them for making jokes. Here's their TRUE honest defense:
-The 5 is cynical, realizes how his jokes really don't matter, they're just jokes. If it's someone he respects he might try to reason. If it's someone he doesn't, he'll make more jokes on the progressing situation from an observer's point of view. As if he were another person watching it going on. 
-The 9 was never truly involved anyway. They just half woke up, said something they mostly didn't mean. If you're mad about it, whoops, they'll take it back... they never cared enough to hurt or help you. Back to your own business now, plz.



*5:*





*9:*





..that's the best I can do.

I guess 5s and 9s can be very alike though. Both are interested and not interested at the same time. Both are passive. Both are calm/un-harmful. Both can distance themselves.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Deadmanrising said:


> The 5 needs reason to do something. The 9 needs inertia to get started.


Isn't inertia what keeps them from getting started?


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## shallnotbenamed (Dec 19, 2014)

Distortions said:


> Isn't inertia what keeps them from getting started?


*a push, not intertia
Sorry. Muddled that up...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ok, thanks all for your contributions and the discussion that followed. Interesting to read. I think I finally figured out which type provides its primary perspective in my own apathetic worldview.


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