# My Theory On The Synflow/Contraflow Instinct Distinction



## Sylas (Jul 23, 2016)

Thanatesque said:


> Here's a trend that I see: what essentially differentiates the contraflow stackings from the synflow stackings is their relationship to their tertiary instincts. *The contraflow stackings have a more negativistic or combative relationship with their last instinct than those of the synflow stackings.* All three instincts are necessary for our survival and fulfillment. When you reject one of the instincts (namely the last instinct), you're closing yourself off from a fundamental aspect of the human experience, and this rejection is more pronounced in the contraflow instincts (hence why they're considered antisocial or 'rejecting of the human condition'). On the other hand, I think the the synflow stackings use their first instinct as a way to reach, feed, merge with, or (over-)compensate for their last instinct. Beware, a lot of these are generalizations, so each person is not necessarily going to connect with the descriptions of their corresponding instinctual variant.


This makes sense because if you think about what connects them to their last instinct it turns out to be another contra flow stacking.

For example what connects Sx/So to their last Sp instinct is the So/Sp connection, which is another contra flow stack, meaning that they cannot handle their last instinct in any other way but by contra flow means.

Sx/So/(Sp) -> So/Sp/(Sx) -> Sp/Sx/(So)


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## Gorgon (Feb 16, 2015)

@The Perfect Storm I haven't forgotten about your question . I should be able get to it later tonight or tomorrow.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Thanatesque said:


> When you reject one of the instincts (namely the last instinct), you're closing yourself off from a fundamental aspect of the human experience, and this rejection is more pronounced in the contraflow instincts (hence why they're considered antisocial or 'rejecting of the human condition').


On second thoughts, it may be tricky to type people's instinctual stacking this way if there are justifiable reasons that they find themselves going against the human grain or struggle to merge within their respective society. Plenty of disillusioned people that don't agree with the laws of their country and refuse to conform to it and a lot of that is related to class.


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## Gorgon (Feb 16, 2015)

mushr00m said:


> On second thoughts, it may be tricky to type people's instinctual stacking this way if there are justifiable reasons that they find themselves going against the human grain or struggle to merge within their respective society. Plenty of disillusioned people that don't agree with the laws of their country and refuse to conform to it and a lot of that is related to class.


I see what you mean. Moreover, the overall syn/contraflow theory is not really set in stone. It's mostly based on general behavioral and attitudinal patterns (which is still not all that reliable and valid). However, antisocial here does not necessarily mean harmful, criminal behavior, or misanthropic outlook (though I do think contraflow types can come off that way). It's about being cut off from (particularly willfully) from an fundamental part of the human experience. It's more an existential orientation than a social one or even a dispositional one (though those do play a role). It's by no means perfect, and I could very well be talking out of my ass :tongue::crazy:

And I still haven't answered The Perfect Storm's question. I've been putting it off because of school/work and the reply is probably going to be long. Excuses excuses!


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## Stellafera (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanatesque said:


> It's about being cut off from (particularly willfully) from an fundamental part of the human experience


My concern is that this sounds an awful lot like Type 4. How can one distinguish the "left out" feelings of being Type 4 with those of being contra-flow?


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

Stellafera said:


> My concern is that this sounds an awful lot like Type 4. How can one distinguish the "left out" feelings of being Type 4 with those of being contra-flow?


For what it's worth, for me... It feels like one of these things where you can just tell. You can just tell when someone is contra or syn, regardless of their core type, because of this feeling you get from them at a very immediate-impression level. Like, Courtney Love (who I believe to be so/sx) would be a good example of a syn-flow person... You think of her and you immediately think of someone who tends to come off overbearing to those who meet her. Chelsea Handler is similarly abrasive, but she feels much more contra-flow to me (I think she is probably sx/so)... I don't think of her guests being overwhelmed by her so much as I do of her telling them to "Shut up," "Calm down," etc. (not saying every contra flow person would act that way, it's just an example)

Lately I've been listening to a lot of songs that make me think of syn-flow and others that make me think of contra-flow... I came up with some on my own but mostly I was thinking of contra-flow people I've known who played me their favorite songs, and the ones I would play back to them... What I've noticed so far is that syn-flow-themed songs tend to bring up rain, and tears a lot. Contra-flow-themed songs mention the sky, and flying a lot. Contra-flow makes me think of a son becoming independent of his mother, and syn-flow makes me think of a mother letting go of her son (regardless of the person's gender, it's just an archetype that comes to mind personally). We had to do a surrealism project for my art class recently and I actually based mine on this theory and those archetypes I got from the songs I'd been listening to, I've been so preoccupied with this theory lately lol.

This feels contra-flow to me...






And this feels syn-flow...


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## goodvibes (Jun 29, 2016)

Quakers said:


> Seems plausible. my understanding of the flows has been
> 
> *Contra*
> *Sx/So = my feelings should determine the social environment*
> ...


I'm curious if you meant to make a distinction between SP/SX and SX/SP because to me, reading "my physical state will determine my feelings" is the same as "my feelings are determined by my state" that in both, one's state determines the subject's feelings. I expected to read "my feelings determine my physical state" for SX/SP because as an SX/SP, that feels more accurate. Specifically, my feelings in the sexual realm (my connection to an intimate partner, a passion, or intense stimulus I'm drawn to in the environment.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Being contra-flow hurts yourself and those around you. 

I'm so/sp (ISFJ) and I relate to thinking of things in a capitalizing or hierarchal way for my benefit. Example, I took a video of a friend yesterday just to post it on social media to let my other friends know I'm having a great time and people want to spend time with me. I used the relationship with this person to higher my status. Sad thing is they thought I actually wanted a video and was just playing around with a fun idea. 

My mother is sp/sx (also ISFJ) and I can see how she's "dulling". I'm very emotional and want to feel things. I like to reflect and talk about my life in a way that allows for personal growth and progression, but it's like she can't connect to what I'm saying. She has trouble saying the right thing and almost puts out the fire I'm trying hard to create... either by pausing for too long or getting distracted by the slightest object in our space. I once begged for her to advise me on how to sort out my hectic schedule, and she replied saying I'm not allowing her to watch her television show and I need to be more like my cousins (as if I asked for a role model). Incredibly frustrating.


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## TheDarknessInTheSnow (May 28, 2016)

Stellafera said:


> My concern is that this sounds an awful lot like Type 4. How can one distinguish the "left out" feelings of being Type 4 with those of being contra-flow?


Try being contra-flow and type four like me.

I think the four in me says you don't belong, you're different, you need meaning, you need significance. But the contra-flow pushes people away from me, forcing me to not belong, simply by having me focus on capitalization and convenience (so/sp) instead of true desire (sx). I begin to resent the natural components of the human experience in favor of a systematic way of approaching life. 

I know a type two who is contra-flow, and as sp/sx, they're contra-flow by putting out the life in those around them. I'm sure they don't feel like an outsider (comparably outgoing and sociable), but they unintentionally present energy that is contra-flow.

So, being a four is more about the conversations you have with yourself regarding your outsider status. Being contra-flow is more about having instinct values that push you towards being an outsider, whether you think you are or not. Essentially a difference between patterns of thought and actual behavior.


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## spicycucumber (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks @Gorgon for writing about syn vs contra flow in more detail. Based on your descriptions, the Sx/Sp suits me.
I also took the Instinctual Variant test that was posted on Personality Cafe and I got 96% intimate, 74% self-pres, and 52% social.

I was reading about how there are 3 different leanings for each stacking (basically towards your primary, equally strong in both your primary and secondary, and towards your secondary). What would my results put me towards as I really lean towards sx, but am also pretty strong oi my weakest variant (social).

Further, are any of you familiar with Socionics? I am an IEE-Ne (Extraverted Intuition, Introverted Feeling, but lean towards Intuition) which pegs me as an infantile (Ne=infantile, Si=caregiver, Ni=victim, and Se=aggressor...all are based on the physical). I ask because infantiles are notorious for sucking at taking care of themselves physically, so I was wondering how having self-preservation as my second variant and being infantile would play out.

Thanks for your insights! The instinctual stackings have been really hard for me to wrap my head around (I've known I am sx first, but finding my secondary has been tough), so any help is greatly appreciated!!


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## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Gorgon said:


> *So/Sp* - Like the sx/so, so/sps are geared towards sociopolitical change/power and ideological conflict. While the program of the sx/so is the dissolution of boundaries, the program of the so/sp is the sublimation of baser human instincts (the sx-instinct in their case) in order to achieve the highest human potential (the Enlightenment is a good example of the high side of so/sp). In this regard, this stacking can very Apollonian or Promethean. Of course, not all So/Sps are this lofty or benevolent. The darker side of this stacking can manifest in using and objectifying others for social power and influence or in the service of political or ideological positions. Their relationships can be a means to an end or a show of their status/position. Elitism is probably not uncommon for people of this stacking.


I wouldn't call them Apollonian or Promethean. But the "sublimation of baser (the sx-instinct in this case) human instincts" is spot on - at least from my Sx/Sp point of view. Sublimation is a key word here and what they sublimate is their Sx blind spot in their So. Everyone does this to an extent. But with So/Sps this is the key to understanding their contra-flow. This is their frustration, so to speak, this "anti-humanity" vibe, which is still present with NFs, although to a lesser degree or in a different way. But with So/Sp NTs this is obvious in sarcasm, cynicism - the group and the "mission" are the most important and they care more about the more immediate members, although when it comes to the larger structures, they are more conniving, covertly complicit than Apollonian or Promethean (Friday late shift, drinking on the job). A lot of that is here too, in Typology. Politics, social power, social status, making friends with the influential people is more important than having/displaying your true type/personality. It's naive to believe everyone is transparent at the moment they entered typology. The game is always on. And the contra-flow means that yes, they know that all is about money, food, sex - the more immediate personal gains -, whereas the other half of their psyche pretends that they'd sacrifice themselves, they'd die for the greater cause. On one hand I respect their care for their society, team-mates, team-spirit, etc., on the other though, I've seen enough how temporary and pragmatic that can be. That's the same reason why these typology forums are so Sx blind spot, are so not earnest, that So blind spots can't really rely on any of these type compartmentalization to find someone matching their type - for we only encounter arbitrary cliques everywhere that need to be socially navigated to figure out people's true selves and if their little clique has any of the type we are looking for.


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## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

spicycucumber said:


> Thanks @Gorgon for writing about syn vs contra flow in more detail. Based on your descriptions, the Sx/Sp suits me.
> I also took the Instinctual Variant test that was posted on Personality Cafe and I got 96% intimate, 74% self-pres, and 52% social.
> 
> I was reading about how there are 3 different leanings for each stacking (basically towards your primary, equally strong in both your primary and secondary, and towards your secondary). What would my results put me towards as I really lean towards sx, but am also pretty strong oi my weakest variant (social).
> ...


I think So/Sx-es, with Sp being blind spot, is something more frequent with ENFPs. I haven't so far come across much So/Sp ENFPs. Usually their bounciness, their flakiness, their energy comes from an So/Sx 7w6. I've only seen one or perhaps two ENFPs on YT whom I thought were Sx/Sp. But even then, as extroverts, they are usually better with people and fitting in with society. I had an ESTP colleague at uni who was something like an E3 Sx/Sp, pretty infantile but not in the Self-pres sense but in the way he made dirty jokes. But still, he had more friends than I did and I learned was later better with keeping a job, fitting in with the company's group (whereas for me that depended on the job, on the people around, Fi-dom). I consider myself also infantile when it comes to groups and respecting people, being tactful, anticipating their boundaries, feelings, etc.; a video described this as narcissistic, probably in the Freudian (childish, self-absorbed, selfish, masturbatory and not NPD!) sense.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Neokortex said:


> And the contra-flow means that yes, they know that all is about money, food, sex - the more immediate personal gains -, whereas the other half of their psyche pretends that they'd sacrifice themselves, they'd die for the greater cause.


Would you say contraflow in general is more cynical? It does make some sense... but then again, I've seen SpSo be quite cynical as well.


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## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Remnants said:


> Would you say contraflow in general is more cynical? It does make some sense... but then again, I've seen SpSo be quite cynical as well.


I'd say we all have cynicism, sarcasm within us. Everyone can be at times "anti-humanistic." So/Sps are more like that but not in terms of intensity but rather in terms longevity, of worldview, outlook. In everything they do there's a sense of defeat, self-deprecation, surrender for the whole, a "meh" attitude paralleled with an excitement for the gossip. In my interpretation contraflow is nothing more than just a psychological frustration: since everything is plural, shared, accessible in terms of social status, nothing is "one-of-a-kind." If someone has a huge network, than if you cut ties with them, and they know typology, they may reach out for one of your "replicas."

Uurrgh... I don't know where I was going with this... Sp/Sos are not cynical when it comes to their health.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Neokortex said:


> In my interpretation contraflow is nothing more than just a psychological frustration: since everything is plural, shared, accessible in terms of social status, nothing is "one-of-a-kind." If someone has a huge network, than if you cut ties with them, and they know typology, they may reach out for one of your "replicas."


Reminds me once I was quite upset because my SO had cut me off, and someone suggested that I "find someone new." As if I could just pick a new boyfriend from a bargain bin or something, because the only thing that matters is being in a relationship, not who I'm in a relationship with. But then this person might also be autistic, or has quite a low emotional intelligence anyway.

(But I digress.)

Anyway, what you say also sounds related to Enneagram type though.


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## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Remnants said:


> Reminds me once I was quite upset because my SO had cut me off, and someone suggested that I "find someone new." As if I could just pick a new boyfriend from a bargain bin or something, because the only thing that matters is being in a relationship, not who I'm in a relationship with. But then this person might also be autistic, or has quite a low emotional intelligence anyway.
> 
> (But I digress.)
> 
> Anyway, what you say also sounds related to Enneagram type though.


I don't think these "flows" are magical properties. We have all these attitudes within us. I consider myself an So/Sp 4 at my core-fixation. I tend to be very idealistic but unlike Sx 4s, I don't compete for my emotions. That's why when it comes to envy I tend to express it in passive-agressive, underhanded ways. That's when I'm contra-flow. But somehow my idealism or childish love of people overrules that at the end of the day. In that sense I have a stronger syn-flow. NFs tend or SFs, when So/Sps, tend to have a contraflow that's not as much sarcastic or cynical (that mostly NTs have) because of their Fe/Fi harmony drivenness. Nevertheless, I can still sense a certain fakeness in them in which, in more subtle ways, they express their frustrations on the world.


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## Can Wang (Mar 4, 2015)

Mark


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## banane_wane (May 13, 2017)

The sx/so one correlates with both me and my idea of sx/so

Bravo, stranger! Let's destroy all cultures!


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