# Inferior Fi or Fe?



## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

I was reading a bit into the functions and I suddenly remembered something.
When under great stress, I get highly emotional and can no longer think clearly. While I normally take the logical approach to deal with issues, if the pressure is too great I start to crumble and can only think about how I am feeling.
If the pressure continues I tend to explode in anger while being on the verge of tears. I have absolutely no control over this.

An example of this is when I went to work with my father in the summer vacation (he is a roadworker).
I know he gets annoyed easily so I listen closely to what he tells me to do. He asks me to get certain tools. I don't know which he means (I lack any technical knowledge related to his work) so I ask him. He sighs and begins showing signs of irritation already. This puts me on edge because it feels like I'm working with an explosive with a fuse that is getting shorter and shorter. Later I'm laying bricks, when suddenly I feel his eyes on me. He sighs again, takes a brick out of my hands, raises his voice saying that I have to work faster. 

This goes on throughout the day. I'm starting to feel sick and I'm losing my focus. I was completely fed up with him but I bite my tongue, telling myself I only have to keep it up since the day is almost over. Then, while I'm sweeping sand off of the bricks, the 'head' of the broom falls off. He tells me to put a nail in it. I go get a nail but I'm so on edge that I put the broom on the tire on the back of the bus, forgetting that it would bounce, making hammering the nail in pretty difficult. He comes over and when I see his expression I just snap at him. My eyes glaze over and I just start talking about how he doesn't seem to value my assistance at all. All I can think about is how I want to get away from this place.

If I had been in a comfortable environment I would never have done something so silly as I did with the broom. It makes no sense, why would I do that? The thing is, I was not thinking at all at that time. All that went through my mind were my feelings of being unappreciated and wanting to go home.


My question is, which inferior function reacts like this under stress, Fi or Fe?
I think it is inferior because of the focus on feelings while under great stress, while I normally do not focus on them.
Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Saturnian Devil (Jan 29, 2013)

Sounds like inferior Fe.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

I dunno.... I'm an INFP and your story sounds _exactly_ like my life story. People's irritation wears me down, I'm reasonable in my head about it understanding reasons why something's important to them, what their viewpoint may be, or that they're just that kind of person etc. but after a certain point I'm worn so thin I can't take it anymore, the feelings of being unjustly judged, the annoyance at them being so bothered by trivial things, the frustration of feeling like regardless of my honest attempts nothing will ever please them, it just boils over and eventually I will either snap or end up crying. I find anger/tears are usually two sides of the same coin, two manifestations of the same feeling - being helpless, like there's nothing I can reasonably do to make the situation better, to make them understand my point of view or be reasonable, etc. A bad emotional undertone in the air like that really takes away my ability to focus, make good choices, be creative, Function in general, I just feel sick inside.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Inferior Fi:
ISFPs and INFPs
� Inner harmony
� Economy of emotional expression
� Acceptance of feeling as non-logical

ESTJs and ENTJs
� Hypersensitivity to inner states
� Outbursts of emotion
� Fear of feeling


Inferior Fe:
Fe-dominant Types
• Comfortable inattention to logic
• Sensitivity to others' welfare
• Sharing of emotions

Fe-inferior Types
• Logic emphasized to an extreme
• Hypersensitivity to relationships
Emotionalism

Socionics - the16types.info - MBTI: Form of the Inferior Function


Now both inferior feeling involve emotionality. I think inferior Fi tends towards an implosion where as Fe tends towards an explosion.
There was no logic emphasized to the extreme (you seem to suggest lack of logic), there was no hypersensitivity to your relationship (you did not concern yourself with the relationship, feeling bad about what your dad thinks or how your behavior may affect him).

To me you seemed to become more sensitive to you inner state (feeling more and more like a fuse getting shorter).
Based on that I'd suggest inferior Fi.


However I don't think that's the whole picture. How many people stuck in stressful situations become emotional in some way? And emotions do not equate to the feeling functions.

Now I am just speculating here, but I think the way you felt with the situation was more a factor of introversion. I am generalizing, however I would expect an introvert to attempt to deal with the situation internally (calm themselves down, talk them selves through the situation, put up an emotional wall, etc) where as an extrovert may be more likely to deal with the situation externally (let off steam, voice how they are feeling, set external boundaries). I could be compete wrong 



* *





Side note: What was it about the situation that made you feel frustrated? I have a feeling it may not be entirely what your father did, perhaps it was directed towards yourself for not setting boundaries and allowing your father to treat you that way? Since you only have control of you, how do you think you could better handle a similar situation that could crop up? Essentially what can you learn from this observation of yourself? That is gold.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Aelthwyn said:


> I dunno.... I'm an INFP and your story sounds _exactly_ like my life story. People's irritation wears me down, I'm reasonable in my head about it understanding reasons why something's important to them, what their viewpoint may be, or that they're just that kind of person etc. but after a certain point I'm worn so thin I can't take it anymore, the feelings of being unjustly judged, the annoyance at them being so bothered by trivial things, the frustration of feeling like regardless of my honest attempts nothing will ever please them, it just boils over and eventually I will either snap or end up crying. I find anger/tears are usually two sides of the same coin, two manifestations of the same feeling - being helpless, like there's nothing I can reasonably do to make the situation better, to make them understand my point of view or be reasonable, etc. A bad emotional undertone in the air like that really takes away my ability to focus, make good choices, be creative, Function in general, I just feel sick inside.


I can relate to this (and the OP). In general I'm finding other peoples negative energy just cuts straight through me, worst I feel stuck with them in my life, and to top it off they aren't bad people, just people where life has been hard. Part of me wants to point a finger and hold them accountable for letting their insecurities interfere with others, yet to be respectful that they are going through a tough time themselves and have issues they may need help with. The worst part, I am powerless to help them (duh, I can't change another person's mind). And the annoying thing, is the situation really as bad as I perceive it to be, that is perhaps I have insecurities skewing my perspective?

Unfortunately I lack the skills to be respectfully assertive, and is an area I have been working on. I think it is about finding that line where another is able to express themselves and when another is overstepping and being disrespectful towards you. I have found it helpful to know what your personal rights are, and to set these as boundaries and set the consequences to crossing those boundaries. Rather than being an emotional tug of war it is more a rule bases system where it can be depersonalized and help emotional stability.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Aelthwyn said:


> I dunno.... I'm an INFP and your story sounds _exactly_ like my life story. People's irritation wears me down, I'm reasonable in my head about it understanding reasons why something's important to them, what their viewpoint may be, or that they're just that kind of person etc. but after a certain point I'm worn so thin I can't take it anymore, the feelings of being unjustly judged, the annoyance at them being so bothered by trivial things, the frustration of feeling like regardless of my honest attempts nothing will ever please them, it just boils over and eventually I will either snap or end up crying. I find anger/tears are usually two sides of the same coin, two manifestations of the same feeling - being helpless, like there's nothing I can reasonably do to make the situation better, to make them understand my point of view or be reasonable, etc. A bad emotional undertone in the air like that really takes away my ability to focus, make good choices, be creative, Function in general, I just feel sick inside.


That sounds really relateable. The emotional undertone you speak of reminds me of when my father is arguing with my mother about the most efficient route to take. He becomes loud and forceful and I feel myself retreating further and further, looking for an excuse to leave the table (it usually happens during dinner). I just don't care about the most efficient route and I have trouble seeing why he gets so worked up about it. If my mother wants to take her own route that may take 5 minutes longer, just let her. The world isn't going to end. 

It seems I have to consider higher Fi as well.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> Now both inferior feeling involve emotionality. I think inferior Fi tends towards an implosion where as Fe tends towards an explosion.
> There was no logic emphasized to the extreme (you seem to suggest lack of logic), there was no hypersensitivity to your relationship (you did not concern yourself with the relationship, feeling bad about what your dad thinks or how your behavior may affect him).


The thing is, I was trying to be the way he wanted me to be all day. I was responsive and active. I'm normally quite dormant and my responses go about as far as "hmm", so this took a lot of energy out of me. I kept it up because I didn't want him to get mad at me, but it seems that no matter how hard I tried, it was never good enough. This is what made me snap. 



> To me you seemed to become more sensitive to you inner state (feeling more and more like a fuse getting shorter).
> Based on that I'd suggest inferior Fi.


To clarify, I meant my father with the explosive. It felt like his fuse was getting shorter and shorter. Which is kind of ironic, since I ended up being the one actually snapping.




> However I don't think that's the whole picture. How many people stuck in stressful situations become emotional in some way? And emotions do not equate to the feeling functions.
> 
> Now I am just speculating here, but I think the way you felt with the situation was more a factor of introversion. I am generalizing, however I would expect an introvert to attempt to deal with the situation internally (calm themselves down, talk them selves through the situation, put up an emotional wall, etc) where as an extrovert may be more likely to deal with the situation externally (let off steam, voice how they are feeling, set external boundaries). I could be compete wrong


This is a good point. I do bottle up until I can't take it anymore, which actually irritates my father since he wants to know what the situation is immediately. 




> Side note: What was it about the situation that made you feel frustrated? I have a feeling it may not be entirely what your father did, perhaps it was directed towards yourself for not setting boundaries and allowing your father to treat you that way? Since you only have control of you, how do you think you could better handle a similar situation that could crop up? Essentially what can you learn from this observation of yourself? That is gold.


I think I tried to endure since the day would come to an end eventually. I didn't want to get in a conflict with him since he owns the house and I have to live with him afterwards. If I abandon the facade and show my true feelings no matter the consequences, I have been pushed really far over the edge.

The only thing I could have done to make it more enjoyable was to be completely flawless in my work like he is. This is practically impossible for someone who just comes along every now and then. I could simply not go with him anymore, but I'd rather not start a fight, so if he asks me I pretty much always say yes.

I would say it was feeling undervalued, but having negativity directed towards me in general tends to upset me. At school a teacher once expressed disappointed over me swearing (I normally never do this but something was really getting on my nerves). This made me feel terrible and I just felt ashamed of myself.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> I can relate to this (and the OP). In general I'm finding other peoples negative energy just cuts straight through me, worst I feel stuck with them in my life, and to top it off they aren't bad people, just people where life has been hard.


Exactly this. The negativity hurts, even when I feel I am in the right.



> Part of me wants to point a finger and hold them accountable for letting their insecurities interfere with others, yet to be respectful that they are going through a tough time themselves and have issues they may need help with. The worst part, I am powerless to help them (duh, I can't change another person's mind). And the annoying thing, is the situation really as bad as I perceive it to be, that is perhaps I have insecurities skewing my perspective?
> 
> Unfortunately I lack the skills to be respectfully assertive, and is an area I have been working on. I think it is about finding that line where another is able to express themselves and when another is overstepping and being disrespectful towards you. I have found it helpful to know what your personal rights are, and to set these as boundaries and set the consequences to crossing those boundaries. Rather than being an emotional tug of war it is more a rule bases system where it can be depersonalized and help emotional stability.


I am kind of a pushover in that I don't fire back at people. I dislike insulting others and wish they would just stop doing it. Setting bounderies would indeed be the best way to measure for yourself if you want to put up with something or not. 

Ironically, me botteling up and then exploding causes me to become far me critical than I would have been if I had just shared my feelings from the start.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> The thing is, I was trying to be the way he wanted me to be all day. I was responsive and active. I'm normally quite dormant and my responses go about as far as "hmm", so this took a lot of energy out of me. I kept it up because I didn't want him to get mad at me, but it seems that no matter how hard I tried, it was never good enough. This is what made me snap.
> 
> To clarify, I meant my father with the explosive. It felt like his fuse was getting shorter and shorter. Which is kind of ironic, since I ended up being the one actually snapping.


Not sure where this sits cognitive wise. I'm sure you could get someone who uses Fe or Fi well that may feel this way. I would even sit on this being an emotional response =/= feeling function.

As an outside perspective here, have you tried questioning you own perception of the event? That is how do you really know that us how your father felt, like an explosive in his hand?

I do see a possible insecurity, a need for you fathers approval. I am happy to discuss this further but restrained myself here as I don't want to pick at a possible sore spot



> This is a good point. I do bottle up until I can't take it anymore, which actually irritates my father since he wants to know what the situation is immediately.


I get the feeling he is clueless and had no idea why you explode?
I do struggle with this also however what may help such a situation is clear communication from you. That is, even if you think your hurt feelings have been seen likely this hurt has not been communicated clearly to the offender. Generally people aren't out there to hurt others on purpose and will often treat others how they think its acceptable to treat them (not all cases as some people have issues...). What upsets you your dad may not get upset by (and vice versa)and he will continue to treat you in that manner oblivious to you offense.

Really an explosive outburst is unfair on the other person if they did not know they hurt you, either that means dealing with the issue internally, or respectfully addressing the issue with the other person. Keeping this in mind has helped me to be willing to communicate such difficult matters rather than let the frustration build up.

If you respectfully make your feelings heard and continues with the same behaviour that is upsetting you then he is being disrespectful. I have no suggestions for how to deal with this effectively. Learning how to be respectfully assertive may help.



> I think I tried to endure since the day would come to an end eventually. I didn't want to get in a conflict with him since he owns the house and I have to live with him afterwards. If I abandon the facade and show my true feelings no matter the consequences, I have been pushed really far over the edge.
> 
> The only thing I could have done to make it more enjoyable was to be completely flawless in my work like he is. This is practically impossible for someone who just comes along every now and then. I could simply not go with him anymore, but I'd rather not start a fight, so if he asks me I pretty much always say yes.
> 
> I would say it was feeling undervalued, but having negativity directed towards me in general tends to upset me. At school a teacher once expressed disappointed over me swearing (I normally never do this but something was really getting on my nerves). This made me feel terrible and I just felt ashamed of myself.


I can relate to you. For some reason when someone directs such negative energy towards me I does feel like a cold knife. I have in the past generally approached situations like you. That is I foresaw consequences that were worst than just going along with something I didn't necessarily want to do. It meant I stayed out of trouble. It's like I am manoeuvring around people/objects/events seeing the best path to take irregardless of my current feelings. That is I feel bad now to feel better later.

The consequences here, I am not walking my own path and at times I am less in touch with what it is I really want, nor do I have the practice to defend such desires.

I advise looking up human rights. That is regardless to life circumstances, position, or events, these are the rights all humans should have because they exist. A big emphasis here is in respecting others and others respecting you.

In the mean time being productive can definitely help, the goal perhaps moving out. When I say goal, it has to be your goal. You have to have decided it for yourself as it is best for you or something you want, not feel forced into it.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> That sounds really relateable. The emotional undertone you speak of reminds me of when my father is arguing with my mother about the most efficient route to take. He becomes loud and forceful and I feel myself retreating further and further, looking for an excuse to leave the table (it usually happens during dinner). I just don't care about the most efficient route and I have trouble seeing why he gets so worked up about it. If my mother wants to take her own route that may take 5 minutes longer, just let her. The world isn't going to end.
> 
> It seems I have to consider higher Fi as well.


Perhaps Socionics will give you more meaningful answers. This could be Se polr tripping you up here. There is debate about how the two systems cross over.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Ksara said:


> Inferior Fi:
> ISFPs and INFPs
> � Inner harmony
> � Economy of emotional expression
> ...


Personally I would say I do not see feelings as illogical, I see them as a cause->effect system that makes perfect sense. Feelings aren't random and arbitrary, you feel things for a reason, those reasons have to do with your values, your individual perspective on what is important, what is right and wrong, what is ideal. Emotional reactions tell you about a person's values, and knowing their values can help predict their reactions.

I do think you're right that inferior Fi results in fear of feeling, I think this has to do with Thinkers highly valuing competence, but they do not feel competent at dealing with expressing/understanding feelings and thus when feelings come up they feel out of control and it plays on one of their deep fears of being incompetent - which causes an emotional reaction to _that_ on top of whatever else they were feeling. It's my impression that Te dominants try to keep their feelings contained and are loath for anyone to be aware of or involved in their dealing with those feelings, but that they inevitably leak out more than they realize - especially when they snap irritably or glare or make biting comments that are clearly emotionally charged and not plain facts. 

When you have inferior Te it tends to manifest when you're angry by overpowering your concern for others' feelings and responding with a tirade of criticisms or reasons why you are right and they are wrong. These arguments may or may not be well thought out, but in the heat of anger it feels like they are very clear, true points - basically it is activating to defend your feelings. Such a tirade might only take place as a mental or written rant when someone is shy or introverted enough that even the extra power/confidence of anger can't override their feeling intimidated by the other person or their habit of avoiding confrontation.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> As an outside perspective here, have you tried questioning you own perception of the event? That is how do you really know that us how your father felt, like an explosive in his hand?


That is what he felt like to me. Ofcourse he didn't feel like that himself, he probably just thought he was correcting a mistake I made.



> I do see a possible insecurity, a need for you fathers approval. I am happy to discuss this further but restrained myself here as I don't want to pick at a possible sore spot


I see what you mean. Although, rather than a desire to be praised, it is more of a fear of being criticised.



> I get the feeling he is clueless and had no idea why you explode?
> I do struggle with this also however what may help such a situation is clear communication from you. That is, even if you think your hurt feelings have been seen likely this hurt has not been communicated clearly to the offender. Generally people aren't out there to hurt others on purpose and will often treat others how they think its acceptable to treat them (not all cases as some people have issues...). What upsets you your dad may not get upset by (and vice versa)and he will continue to treat you in that manner oblivious to you offense.


I know communication about these things is important, but my aversion to confrontation leads me to wait it out, which doesn't always work out.



> I can relate to you. For some reason when someone directs such negative energy towards me I does feel like a cold knife. I have in the past generally approached situations like you. That is I foresaw consequences that were worst than just going along with something I didn't necessarily want to do. It meant I stayed out of trouble. It's like I am manoeuvring around people/objects/events seeing the best path to take irregardless of my current feelings. That is I feel bad now to feel better later.


Exactly.



> In the mean time being productive can definitely help, the goal perhaps moving out. When I say goal, it has to be your goal. You have to have decided it for yourself as it is best for you or something you want, not feel forced into it.


Because my college is far away I have already moved out though. This is not an issue I'm dealing with right now. I used it as an example to get some clues as to what is going on cognitively.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> That is what he felt like to me. Ofcourse he didn't feel like that himself, he probably just thought he was correcting a mistake I made.
> 
> I see what you mean. Although, rather than a desire to be praised, it is more of a fear of being criticised.
> 
> ...


That is good to hear the is space between you and that stressful dynamic 
And apologies for not being more cognitively helpful 
But again, PolR Se may be worth investigating. That could suggest INTP or INFP (rough socionics translations) however its not necessarily the one deciding factor.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I was reading a bit into the functions and I suddenly remembered something.
> When under great stress, I get highly emotional and can no longer think clearly. While I normally take the logical approach to deal with issues, if the pressure is too great I start to crumble and can only think about how I am feeling.
> If the pressure continues I tend to explode in anger while being on the verge of tears. I have absolutely no control over this.
> 
> ...


Based on this and what I've read so far in this thread, you actually strike me as an FJ type (I'm leaning towards introvert, but I can't tell for sure at this point).

Now, I'm no expert in inferior functions, but I know that IFJs tend to be fairly closed about their own emotions except with a select few, especially the emotions they might be ashamed of--Fe tends to be most expressive in social situations where it tries to make everyone feel good, either by joking around or some other manner. Personally, this is when I am the most gregarious, but when I'm not around people I tend to be fairly placid.

Now, the reason I see a strong Fe in you is because of what you said about feeling your father's fuse burn away. I'm sure a T type could feel it as well, but it seems like they would realize it after the fact instead of in the moment as it sounds like you did. Fe is very sensitive to others' moods like this.

Your explosion itself doesn't really indicate Fi or Fe to me.

Granted, all of this is just speculation on my part--just a general feel of what I've read here so far. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't count out an auxiliary Fe just yet. If you're sure of being a T type, then I'd guess ITP. Here are a few questions I have for you, though.

- Do you find yourself projecting your emotions onto others or reading their emotions?
- In a social situation, do you tend to be more concerned with how things make you feel or how things makes everyone else feel?
- Do think about morality as something absolute or specific to the individual--that is, do you think there should be some moral standard everyone should abide by or do you think things would be better if people were allowed to explore and develop their own personal morality (within reason).
- If you think someone is making a bad choice, would you make that judgment based on how their actions affected the group/went against a socially accepted standard, and would you then try to convince them that they should alter their actions so as to conform to said standard, or would you make that judgment based on how authentic to their own values they were being (I hesitate to say integrity here because that applies to both types of feeling, but that is kind of the idea), and would you try to help them figure out what they actually want so they can resolve the issue? In other words, would you 'sculpt' them into what you believe is socially acceptable or or would you try to help them grow into who they really are?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> - Do you find yourself projecting your emotions onto others or reading their emotions?


I've read about that, but I have trouble imagining what projecting your emotions would be like. I do think things like "You just said that on purpose because you knew this would happen as a result". This is not projecting, right?

An example of that would be when I was having dinner with my mother and sister a few days ago. The dog is outside and scratches on the door. My sister and I both know that our mother has the tendency to want to do things if someone else doesn't do them. The dog has only been outside for a short while so I don't feel the need to let him in. Then my sister says something to show that she won't do it (she rarely says things directly), then she says something like "he really wants to get in, doesn't he?", knowing full well that would push our mother into doing it. 

Using this method she often makes my mother do all sorts of things, like getting her something to drink, making her food, etc.

The thing is, my sister cares more about the dog than anyone else in the family, but can't be bothered to do anything herself. She has the perfect 'slave' in our mother who she knows will do practically every chore with but a little push.

On the one hand, it disgusts me that she would use our mother like that. On the other hand, if you are manipulated that easily, you can't really blame my sister for taking advantage of it.


I don't know if you can get anything out of this, it is just something that came to my mind.



> - In a social situation, do you tend to be more concerned with how things make you feel or how things makes everyone else feel?


I tend to make myself feel comfortable through making others feel comfortable.
If others are at ease, they are less likely to do something unpleasant to me. If nobody has problems with me, then I can just get through the day without any hiccups.

I tend to carefully consider what I say to the person(s) I'm talking to, because I don't want to create conflict. This is mainly for self-preservation, though. My own safety comes first, and to achieve that I make sure others don't have a reason to cause harm to me.



> - Do think about morality as something absolute or specific to the individual--that is, do you think there should be some moral standard everyone should abide by or do you think things would be better if people were allowed to explore and develop their own personal morality (within reason).


I strongly believe in justice. Justice is absolute, it doesn't change per person. If you hurt someone, he has the right to hurt you as well. If something happens I simply ask myself "Is this just?", or in other words, "Is the reaction equal to the action?".

With a bit of decency you can prevent a lot of problems. Don't do to others what you don't want done to yourself. If you don't want someone else to steal from you, you shouldn't steal from them. It's a really simple code to live by and if everyone would follow it, conflict would be pretty much gone.

(I've noticed that I'm pretty much incapable of giving straight answers, lol. I can only give examples and hope people can get something useful out of it.  )



> - If you think someone is making a bad choice, would you make that judgment based on how their actions affected the group/went against a socially accepted standard, and would you then try to convince them that they should alter their actions so as to conform to said standard, or would you make that judgment based on how authentic to their own values they were being (I hesitate to say integrity here because that applies to both types of feeling, but that is kind of the idea), and would you try to help them figure out what they actually want so they can resolve the issue? In other words, would you 'sculpt' them into what you believe is socially acceptable or or would you try to help them grow into who they really are?


Doing something that goes against the flow is not a bad choice, unless you draw a lot of unwanted attention to yourself which can harm you in the long run. 

I don't really care about either social standards nor authenticity (although I do appreciate it when people drop the facade).

I like to see what someone is like on the inside, but this has little to do with values, mainly with what they actually think about things rather than what they are saying to fit in.

When I judge whether a choice is good or bad, I look at what will be the result of his/her actions and if that is beneficial. If a choice would worsen their situation, then it would be a bad choice. If it improves the situation, then go for it.

There is an exception, however. If the thing you can do will improve your situation at the cost of someone else's, then you shouldn't do it. Backstabbing disgusts me and I will cut all ties with someone who considers it acceptable.

To get back to the question, If I think something would negatively affect them, I would give them advice how to improve it, but if they were really convinced it was the right thing to do, I wouldn't push them out of it.
I believe experience is the most valuable way of learning, so I'd let them find out for themselves what the consequences are (and I'd control the urge of telling them 'told you so' ).

As for your last question, I'd ask them "So, what do you really want to do? Then go and do it.".
If this person wanted to do something and society would look down on it, I'd say "Fck society, what do YOU want to do? Don't let others tell you what you should or shouldn't do"


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@Ninjaws

Feelers are not always emotional. Thinkers are not always logical. The "T" or "F" is about how you make value judgments. Do you trust your feelings to make judgments, or your thoughts, so don't get so hung up on what makes you emotional. It may have to do with experience, or genetics, and nothing to do with inferior cognitive functions. Cognitive functions are _preferences_, not reactions.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> @Ninjaws
> 
> Feelers are not always emotional. Thinkers are not always logical. The "T" or "F" is about how you make value judgments. Do you trust your feelings to make judgments, or your thoughts, so don't get so hung up on what makes you emotional. It may have to do with experience, or genetics, and nothing to do with inferior cognitive functions. Cognitive functions are _preferences_, not reactions.


This should be the easiest question, but it is really difficult for me. 
Often I'll decide what to do based on what sounds like the best idea logically.
At other times I'll do something because I feel good about it.

For example, I'll not say something to avoid a potentially negative reaction. There is no feeling involved, just me trying to minimize potential problems.

Other example, I'll perform a certain task inefficiently but in a way that I feel comfortable with. I'll do things my way despite the lower performance, just because I feel happy doing it that way.


I cannot easily say which is more like me. Do you perhaps know some good questions that could produce some results?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> This should be the easiest question, but it is really difficult for me.
> Often I'll decide what to do based on what sounds like the best idea logically.
> At other times I'll do something because I feel good about it.
> 
> ...


Do you understand what a "value judgment" is? It has to do with "rightness" or "wrongness." 

Do you determine what is right or wrong by how you feel about it, or how you think about it? 

Try This.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I've read about that, but I have trouble imagining what projecting your emotions would be like. I do think things like "You just said that on purpose because you knew this would happen as a result". This is not projecting, right?
> 
> An example of that would be when I was having dinner with my mother and sister a few days ago. The dog is outside and scratches on the door. My sister and I both know that our mother has the tendency to want to do things if someone else doesn't do them. The dog has only been outside for a short while so I don't feel the need to let him in. Then my sister says something to show that she won't do it (she rarely says things directly), then she says something like "he really wants to get in, doesn't he?", knowing full well that would push our mother into doing it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you really sound Fe. Just the fact that you don't know what projecting emotions would be like seems to indicate that.

At first blush, I can't really make anything of your first example with your sister. That could go either way, honestly, depending on why you're disgusted by it. If you hate it because it goes against some deeply held internal passion, that's more Fi; if it's because you see manipulation as crime against human decency as a whole, I'd call that more on the Fe side.

Your mother sounds very Fe, though (she reminds me a lot of my own ISFJ mother), so whatever type you are, I imagine that you've learned some behaviors from her.

Your second answer screams Fe to me. You propose a basic ethical code that you think would solve a lot of the world's problems if we stuck to it. (I've often been an advocate of the "let's just not be jerks to each other" philosophy as well, so maybe it runs in the Fe waters.) I'm not saying that Fi has no higher moral compass, but because of its introversion it tends to be a little more accepting of individual interpretations of it, and is just a lot more liberal in general, "If that's what they believe, so long as they're being true to themselves then it's okay" even if various interpretations are radically different. Fi might be a little more on the compassion side of the spectrum (as opposed to justice).

Your dislike of drawing attention to yourself is also pretty Fe. I know, personally, that whenever I see someone doing things to stand out, it ruffles my feather. An example of my own Fe in action: just today I was driving down the road and I saw a large pickup truck with pink windshield wipers and (I kid you not) pink parking lights. On the back window, there was a sticker that (in pink writing) said, "Love" in stylized letters. This irritated me for a number of reasons 1) it's clearly owned by a college-age girl who thinks that trucks are just cool but clearly has no idea why someone would have one (this was about the size of an F-350, by the way), 2) having a truck just to own one is a huge was of money and gas that could be much better spent on people who actually need them, 3) the truck represents and perpetuates the grossly selfish consumerist society that we live under, and 4) it's clear to that the driver had either decorated the truck because she wanted to stand out or just didn't give a flying crap about what other people thought.

As for your final answer, preferring people to be genuine isn't necessarily the same as desiring for them to be as true to themselves as possible--that's Fi's realm. Your general disregard for authenticity seems Fe to me, and it could be argued that your disregard for social standards is Fi, but I think it's more likely to be introversion in general. Nothing in this section really stands out to me as going either way. That said, I'm getting a strong IFJ/ITP vibe from you. So I guess the next step is to discern your perceiving axis. Before I do that, though, do you think you prefer intuition or sensation?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Do you understand what a "value judgment" is? It has to do with "rightness" or "wrongness."
> 
> Do you determine what is right or wrong by how you feel about it, or how you think about it?



Probably by how I think about it. I'll make a mental list of all the variables involved and then judge whether something is justifiable or not.



> Try This.


That test doesn't even take functions into account. It's simply I vs E, F vs T, etc. 

Tests do not provide me with any useful information.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> I agree the description of Ne is not Ne. I think it may actually be a thinking process.
> @Ninjaws do you get worn out by focusing on what's going on within you? Do you find it much easier to pay attention to what's in the outer world?


Yeah, I was writing my thought proces which is kind of jumpy. I should have restructured it.

Well, that depends. If there is alot happening outside, like busy traffic, I get really uncomfortable although I think this is because it feels unsafe. 

I'd say I see everything at surface level (while questioning everyone's intentions, but that would be enneagram 6 stuff). I simply observe the world and myself. In this 'relaxed' gaze, I do not have the focus to peer into myself. It's kind of like flipping a switch. When I focus on the inside I do not actually see anymore, I've noticed. A few weeks ago I was on my bike to school and I was not paying attention because I was deep in thought. I ended up falling and spraining my wrist. My father instantly said, "you were doing something other than riding your bike". I am really crappy multitasker, but at the same time, I lack the focus to stay on one thing for a very long time. I jump around things which means I end up with 20 tabs open after a few hours. I have trouble stopping this too. I end up going to sleep around 3 am simply because I just keep looking things up.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

@KalimofDaybreak, @Ksara, @sassafrassthelioness

You guys seem to be onto something here. Do you have some more questions to get even closer?


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

What is your response to being sore or sick? 
Would you say you are likely to repress your emotions, your ideas, or your physical sensations?
When observing yourself, what type of thing do you observe? What about yourself do you notice?
Is it important to you to perfect/optimise things? What else is important to you?

That's all I can think of for now.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> @KalimofDaybreak, @Ksara, @sassafrassthelioness
> 
> You guys seem to be onto something here. Do you have some more questions to get even closer?


First off, sorry I've been away for a few days. You know how it goes. 

I guess my biggest question is: if you don't focus inward naturally, where mode does your brain most easily slip into? More than just observing the world, explain how, what you observe, that sort of thing.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

sassafrassthelioness said:


> What is your response to being sore or sick?


It'll go away. If it seems rather serious, I will take it easy though.
Throughout my years, I've never skipped a day of school due to illness. The only time I didn't go to school was when I got run over by a car the day before.


> Would you say you are likely to repress your emotions, your ideas, or your physical sensations?


Let's see. Definitely not physical sensations, since they are ever-present for me. I know in what condition I am and what my mood is at all times.

I'll repress emotions when I feel the need to appear tough. Although I think it is more a matter of not showing rather than repressing. I do still feel emotions, of course.

I don't see a reason to repress ideas. I'm studying something that requires a lot of problem solving (video game programming), so having a lot of ideas works to my benefit.


> When observing yourself, what type of thing do you observe? What about yourself do you notice?


Inactive body, overactive mind. Love for food and other sensational pleasures (I love the feeling of fast rollercoasters for instance). Constantly complaining, usually just to myself. Easily distracted. No social life whatsoever.


> Is it important to you to perfect/optimise things? What else is important to you?


Yes. When something runs perfectly I take pride in my achievement. A meh product is not even worth the effort.

A comfortable life is pretty important to me, so you can see how there ends up being a conflict between my desire to succeed and my desire for comfort.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> First off, sorry I've been away for a few days. You know how it goes.


No problem. 



> I guess my biggest question is: if you don't focus inward naturally, where mode does your brain most easily slip into? More than just observing the world, explain how, what you observe, that sort of thing.


I've been thinking about this, and there are two internal things that I am aware of: My mood and comfort. Loud noise, the smell of cigarettes, etc make me instantly uncomfortable. I've noticed that the state I like being in most is when you put on headphones with some good music and just have everything else disappear. Being absorbed in the sounds and emotions the song is conveying. I cannot do this when I need to pay attention however, because I become unresponsive. 

So I'd say the thing I'm most aware of are impact of sensations upon me. When I see the world, I also see how it would feel to the touch and such. I get uncomfortable when I walk through a street that is bleak and looks like a junkyard. I seek places surrounded with warmth and comfort. Only in those places can I relax and focus. Being in a place where I am not comfortable badly drains me.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> No problem.
> 
> 
> I've been thinking about this, and there are two internal things that I am aware of: My mood and comfort. Loud noise, the smell of cigarettes, etc make me instantly uncomfortable. I've noticed that the state I like being in most is when you put on headphones with some good music and just have everything else disappear. Being absorbed in the sounds and emotions the song is conveying. I cannot do this when I need to pay attention however, because I become unresponsive.
> ...


This all sounds very Si to me, if you're that hyper-aware of the state of your body. If that's true, I'm inclined to call you ISFJ. Your "I'm most aware of [the] impact of sensations upon me" seems to hit that nail pretty squarely on the head. You seem pretty inwardly focused, but your focus is upon the state of your body, as does saying you look at the world through how it would feel to touch and sense, and the little part about disliking bleak streets and junk yards seems to indicate a sensitivity to the emotional/meaningful 'vibe' of a place, which in turn indicates a dominant feeling function to me, most likely Fe since you're aware of how the place itself feels, not just how you project onto it.

So unless your own anyone else has any absolute qualms with my assessment, I say ISFJ. Most likely a highly introspective ISFJ with a very strong Ti function, and perhaps a little more analytical than ISFJs are commonly presented.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> This all sounds very Si to me, if you're that hyper-aware of the state of your body. If that's true, I'm inclined to call you ISFJ. Your "I'm most aware of [the] impact of sensations upon me" seems to hit that nail pretty squarely on the head. You seem pretty inwardly focused, but your focus is upon the state of your body, as does saying you look at the world through how it would feel to touch and sense, and the little part about disliking bleak streets and junk yards seems to indicate a sensitivity to the emotional/meaningful 'vibe' of a place, which in turn indicates a dominant feeling function to me, most likely Fe since you're aware of how the place itself feels, not just how you project onto it.
> 
> So unless your own anyone else has any absolute qualms with my assessment, I say ISFJ. Most likely a highly introspective ISFJ with a very strong Ti function, and perhaps a little more analytical than ISFJs are commonly presented.


I can see that being the case. It was an eye opener, because introspection with a focus on self understanding is hard, which made me think I was mainly outwardly focussed. However, while I focus a lot on the outside world, my physical and psychological state are just as important. The thing is, it is so natural for me to take care of those things that I don't really have to think about them. 

You are right about the vibe thing. Places have atmospheres to me, and a negative one can cause me to never visit that place again. I noticed this when I was going by all the colleges to select the one for me. I travelled for like 2 hours to get there and the moment I stood inside of the building I was like "nope" and pretty much crossing it off of my list. For instance, I love parties where people are all in comfortable clothing while playing party games on the couch. It is cozy and the atmosphere is nice. I really love boardgames, lol.
I dislike parties in which they play loud music, everyone gets pushed around and the floor is covered in alcohol. It is disgusting, gives me a headache and there is no possibility of really getting to know eachother. 

I will read up on the Alpha quadra a bit more, since I previously mainly focussed on Delta and Gamma (people kept convincing me of Fi).
Thank you for helping me with this, I really appreciate it. 

And sorry for my spelling error, being quoted on an incomplete sentence is embarrassing.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I can see that being the case. It was an eye opener, because introspection with a focus on self understanding is hard, which made me think I was mainly outwardly focussed. However, while I focus a lot on the outside world, my physical and psychological state are just as important. The thing is, it is so natural for me to take care of those things that I don't really have to think about them.
> 
> You are right about the vibe thing. Places have atmospheres to me, and a negative one can cause me to never visit that place again. I noticed this when I was going by all the colleges to select the one for me. I travelled for like 2 hours to get there and the moment I stood inside of the building I was like "nope" and pretty much crossing it off of my list. For instance, I love parties where people are all in comfortable clothing while playing party games on the couch. It is cozy and the atmosphere is nice. I really love boardgames, lol.
> I dislike parties in which they play loud music, everyone gets pushed around and the floor is covered in alcohol. It is disgusting, gives me a headache and there is no possibility of really getting to know eachother.
> ...


Haha, it wasn't a spelling error, I just didn't want to quote two different sentenced. 

No problem, I enjoy helping people.  Here's a video to get you started:




If that doesn't suit, Pierce has some other good videos that might help.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

@Ninjaws
Well how you have responded about sensations this time and previously is why I thought you may be an S type 
(wasn't sure on the Se vs Si aspect).

When it comes to some big decisions in life you have made, do you tend to follow your heart (and perhaps later find reasons to justify this, or may even ignore that your decision is illogical) or do you tend to do what is most logical/beneficial for you (and may later find some importance in these decisions, or perhaps ignore how you feel about it)?
I say tend towards as in people do make both kinds of decisions, I'm interested in which side tends to win out more often.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Haha, it wasn't a spelling error, I just didn't want to quote two different sentenced.
> 
> No problem, I enjoy helping people.  Here's a video to get you started:
> 
> ...


Ah yes, Pierce has pretty good videos.

EDIT: What is this "love for humanity" bullsh*t? If anything, I'd consider myself a misanthrope. All the damage humanity has done to the planet. Grey cities taking the place of lush forests, entire species being hunted down for nothing but sport.

Surely this is just a ridiculous stereotype (that all ISFJs have a love for humanity).


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> @Ninjaws
> Well how you have responded about sensations this time and previously is why I thought you may be an S type
> (wasn't sure on the Se vs Si aspect).
> 
> ...


I used to be mainly concerned with how much I'd get out of it in the end. However, once things get tough it is impossible to keep up it if you do not actually like what you're doing. It made high school a living hell. All subjects I had chosen were there to give me the maximum amount of options. While it is nice now to have so many choices, having to slug through things like chemistry and physics was extremely draining.

I still keep the economical factor in mind when making choices regarding career though. It has to be something that has at least some demand, otherwise you won't be able to use it.

I have a long term mindset, but my body tends to rebel whenever I try to take the most efficient route. It can make millions, but if I don't like it, I simply won't be able to keep doing it.


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

Hey! I agree about the Si, however I'd like to suggest that you could be an ISTJ rather than an ISFJ. Especially the above post, where you talk about efficiency, and yet still needing to have meaning in your work/adhere to your personal values (if I understood correctly) - sounds like you value Te type stuff but not enough to totally repress the Fi side.

I think sensing introvert works for you because while you are not super focussed on your inner feeling states or thought processes, you are super aware of your responses to sensory stimuli which (I think) is the definition of Si, right?

Also your responses sound a lot like my ISTJ husband  He has a similar focus on comfort - can't ignore physical discomfort, and has a similar thing with loving perfection, wanting to produce the best possible work or not at all, but still having that Fi pull that means he won't do something he doesn't like. Absolutely won't do it.

I wonder how this quote resonates with you, because it is one of his absolute favourites (I actually made a poster of it for him he loves it so much) 
"Perfection. That's what it's about. It's those moments. When you can feel the perfection of creation. The beauty of physics, you know, the wonder of mathematics. The elation of action and reaction, and that is the kind of perfection that I want to be connected to. "
It's from Battlestar Galactica haha we're such a pair of nerds.

I suppose as well now you've narrowed it down to Si dominant (if you are happy with that of course) you can compare descriptions and hang out in the groups and see where you feel more at home.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

sassafrassthelioness said:


> Hey! I agree about the Si, however I'd like to suggest that you could be an ISTJ rather than an ISFJ. Especially the above post, where you talk about efficiency, and yet still needing to have meaning in your work/adhere to your personal values (if I understood correctly) - sounds like you value Te type stuff but not enough to totally repress the Fi side.
> 
> I think sensing introvert works for you because while you are not super focussed on your inner feeling states or thought processes, you are super aware of your responses to sensory stimuli which (I think) is the definition of Si, right?


I believe so, yes.



> Also your responses sound a lot like my ISTJ husband  He has a similar focus on comfort - can't ignore physical discomfort, and has a similar thing with loving perfection, wanting to produce the best possible work or not at all, but still having that Fi pull that means he won't do something he doesn't like. Absolutely won't do it.


Haha, yep sounds familiar.



> I wonder how this quote resonates with you, because it is one of his absolute favourites (I actually made a poster of it for him he loves it so much)
> "Perfection. That's what it's about. It's those moments. When you can feel the perfection of creation. The beauty of physics, you know, the wonder of mathematics. The elation of action and reaction, and that is the kind of perfection that I want to be connected to. "
> It's from Battlestar Galactica haha we're such a pair of nerds.


Reminds me of the feeling I had when something worked perfectly in my code. Even if it is only a small part of the program, the satisfaction that is felt when something works exactly the way it should is almost tear worthy. 



> I suppose as well now you've narrowed it down to Si dominant (if you are happy with that of course) you can compare descriptions and hang out in the groups and see where you feel more at home.


It does seem to be the most likely one. The focus on pleasurable sensations pretty much dominates everything else.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> Ah yes, Pierce has pretty good videos.
> 
> EDIT: What is this "love for humanity" bullsh*t? If anything, I'd consider myself a misanthrope. All the damage humanity has done to the planet. Grey cities taking the place of lush forests, entire species being hunted down for nothing but sport.
> 
> Surely this is just a ridiculous stereotype (that all ISFJs have a love for humanity).


I think what he's saying is that ISFJs love those who are close to them in the way he describes in the video. At least, that's my take on it. I'm an INFJ and supposed to be all lovely and idealistic but...no.... The way this kind of idealism is described often makes me think it's just ignorance.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I used to be mainly concerned with how much I'd get out of it in the end. However, once things get tough it is impossible to keep up it if you do not actually like what you're doing. It made high school a living hell. All subjects I had chosen were there to give me the maximum amount of options. While it is nice now to have so many choices, having to slug through things like chemistry and physics was extremely draining.
> 
> I still keep the economical factor in mind when making choices regarding career though. It has to be something that has at least some demand, otherwise you won't be able to use it.


I'm actually starting to agree with @sassafrassthelioness that you might be ISTJ. This sounds very Te.



Ninjaws said:


> I have a long term mindset, but my body tends to rebel whenever I try to take the most efficient route. It can make millions, but if I don't like it, I simply won't be able to keep doing it.


Explain this. Why wouldn't you like it? What would prevent you from being as efficient as possible?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> I'm actually starting to agree with @sassafrassthelioness that you might be ISTJ. This sounds very Te.
> 
> 
> 
> Explain this. Why wouldn't you like it? What would prevent you from being as efficient as possible?


My productivity depends on my enjoyment. If I dislike doing something, I start procrastinating like crazy. I have to like what I am doing to be able to keep it going for a long time.

EDIT: Why I dislike something? Hmm that's actually a more difficult question than I would have thought. I can't really explain why I like some things and dislike other things, I just do. For instance, I dislike chemistry, but if I would have to explain it you why this is the case, it'd take me a long time to formulate my thoughts.


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## KalimofDaybreak (Aug 6, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> My productivity depends on my enjoyment. If I dislike doing something, I start procrastinating like crazy. I have to like what I am doing to be able to keep it going for a long time.
> 
> EDIT: Why I dislike something? Hmm that's actually a more difficult question than I would have thought. I can't really explain why I like some things and dislike other things, I just do. For instance, I dislike chemistry, but if I would have to explain it you why this is the case, it'd take me a long time to formulate my thoughts.


Hm. It seems that your middle two functions are close in strength, regardless of whether you prefer T or F.

Let's try something Michael Pierce asked me (he said he was taking a page out of Ben David's book):

"What is your opinion, thoughts or feelings on ISFJs? For instance, Mother Teresa, Mitt Romney, Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks...?


And what are your thoughts and feelings on ISTJs? Such as Dwight D. Eisenhower, Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel, Warren Buffet...?


How about ISFPs? (Jonathan Ive, Thich Naht Hahn, Leni Riefenstahl?)


And ISTPs? (Jack Dorsey, Erwin Rommel, Ron Paul, Stanley Kubrick?)"

Just fyi, he's getting these people from CelebrityTypes. Don't worry so much about whether or not you agree with their typings.


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> My productivity depends on my enjoyment. If I dislike doing something, I start procrastinating like crazy. I have to like what I am doing to be able to keep it going for a long time.


That's exactly like my husband. He's a terrible procrastinator unless it's something he's passionate about. Then he goes crazy with the organising and the obsessiveness


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

KalimofDaybreak said:


> Hm. It seems that your middle two functions are close in strength, regardless of whether you prefer T or F.
> 
> Let's try something Michael Pierce asked me (he said he was taking a page out of Ben David's book):
> 
> "What is your opinion, thoughts or feelings on ISFJs? For instance, Mother Teresa, Mitt Romney, Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks...?


Regarding Teresa, I believe it was Christopher Hitchens who said that she was not a friend of the poor, but a friend of poverty and that she said that suffering was a gift from god. I haven't read much about her so I cannot confirm any of that, but knowing Hitchens, it is probably true.

It would mean that she intends to keep poverty and suffering in existence. I don't know how a person can have such a twisted mindset. Don't heal the sick person, change the system so that the person gets proper medical care.

Regarding Rosa Parks, I'd have done the same in her situation. It is unfair that another human being would have more right to get my seat than I do. 




> And what are your thoughts and feelings on ISTJs? Such as Dwight D. Eisenhower, Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel, Warren Buffet...?


Not much of an opinion, I like Augustus Caesar (mainly because he has a cool name ). In general, they seem to be solid people.




> How about ISFPs? (Jonathan Ive, Thich Naht Hahn, Leni Riefenstahl?)


I like how all of them seem quite friendly. Like Ulysses S. Grant. I especially like his quote "[I did not rejoice] at the downfall of [the South] who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought. [But] I do not question ... [their] sincerity."

I like it when people show some modesty.



> And ISTPs? (Jack Dorsey, Erwin Rommel, Ron Paul, Stanley Kubrick?)"


Some seem a bit pushy ("Just do it!" like Christian Bale) and most have an expression that makes me feel threatened. I do not feel comfortable around it, since it makes me feel like they are a threat to my safety.
I do like their no-nonsense attitude.


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