# The NF God



## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> BUT in my opinion he should have kept quiet more often.


Eggs actly. If you watch his older stuff, from when he was doing ... what did he call it ... "trews", he spoke a lot and said little. I stopped watching after a couple of videos as he kept talking and talking when it was obvious that his guests were infinitely better informed and had more interesting things to say, but he kept hogging all the screen time. Much noise, little substance. He took some time off at one point and seems to have his shit slightly better together these days. Still not very good at listening.



> There were many concepts I didn't get to hear from Cox and Cox is the one who has done this research and also thought about how to present the science, which is not always the easiest thing to do, but he is amazing.


Cox is a very good science communicator. If you haven't, you should absolutely check out his various BBC series, especially Wonders of the Universe. Wonders of Life was also decent, as was The Infinite Monkey Cage podcast/radio show. He has done a few other things since, I haven't seen all of them.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Eggs actly. If you watch his older stuff, from when he was doing ... what did he call it ... "trews", he spoke a lot and said little. I stopped watching after a couple of videos as he kept talking and talking when it was obvious that his guests were infinitely better informed and had more interesting things to say, but he kept hogging all the screen time. Much noise, little substance. He took some time off at one point and seems to have his shit slightly better together these days. Still not very good at listening.
> 
> 
> 
> Cox is a very good science communicator. If you haven't, you should absolutely check out his various BBC series, especially Wonders of the Universe. Wonders of Life was also decent, as was The Infinite Monkey Cage podcast/radio show. He has done a few other things since, I haven't seen all of them.


I will watch those, actually. I started one of them earlier with my daughter. 
I had been introduced before from:









I love WILTY, I've watched every episode to tatters. Just 6 more months until the next season!


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Llyralen said:


> My thought:
> A friend of mine can think erroneously that I'm like her on something, right? When I'm not. It doesn't change me...she just has to learn better and she might freak out when she realizes the truth, but I was myself the whole time, lets say.
> Would that be different with God?


but you exist objectively and god only in the minds and words of people


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> but you exist objectively and god only in the minds and words of people


I think God's objective existence or non-existence can't be proven either way. That's where faith comes in. 
I'm not sure that I really see it in exactly these terms or this clear-cut as this analogy about my friend would lead you to expect, but I suppose I made this question to this poster because I want to know what parts of what I am saying are challenging to people. 
I knew what I was saying would challenge people to look inward, but I didn't know it would feel like I was challenging their God, exactly. I have to figure out what is going on with individuals.

Me, personally, if confronted with my own questions, I'd say that I probably do ignore everything about anything punitive from God. Does this mean my understanding of God is incomplete? 
Since I was able to show myself that my loved ones' views of God largely had to do with their first 2 functions and sometimes the suppression of their inferior functions, then I figure I could challenge myself in the following way:

What if God is not interested in providing opportunities for growth or in letting me explore and appreciate this world? Instead what if God is driving more for blind obedience and malleability? 

What if God doesn't care about my pursuits to raise my children a certain way or doesn't agree with the things I've set as my ideals to strive for? What if he doesn't care if I am happy, but would rather I was more dutiful and productive? What if He is completely uninterested in helping me become liberated from fear or depression if they befall me? What if everything that I care about that I feel that He tenderly also cares about because he cares about me...what if none of those pursuits will be possible?
I sometimes meet people who are trapped with pain and physical limitations.
What if I were raped or something and felt like God had done nothing to keep me safe? When I have always depended on Him to keep me safe? And I thought He would warn me in some way or prevent it from happening. 

I actually had a neighbor whose granddaughter I used to baby-sit who very accidentally ran over his granddaughter in a freak accident and then later killed someone else in a car crash. How do you get through then? 

For someone with faith, a feeling of hope is pretty essential. What if on all of these things. Right now, I feel like I would still want communication with God to give it all meaning and that meaning would almost be the only redemption in some horrible accident like my neighbor had. 
On the other hand, people without faith must somehow get through these things... but I'm not sure what wisdom they find or what peace or how and that would be very interesting. All my life I've pretty much only known adults with faith to show me how they get through hard things.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Llyralen said:


> I think God's objective existence or non-existence can't be proven either way. That's where faith comes in.
> I'm not sure that I really see it in exactly these terms or this clear-cut as this analogy about my friend would lead you to expect, but I suppose I made this question to this poster because I want to know what parts of what I am saying are challenging to people.
> I knew what I was saying would challenge people to look inward, but I didn't know it would feel like I was challenging their God, exactly. I have to figure out what is going on with individuals.
> 
> ...


That's the issue that points to God being a subjective human experience, that it's a matter of faith.
If, somehow, today god were to objectively make its presence known to every and all humans the same way you and I exist, then it would cease to be god, he'd become a person, even if it's some weird powerful being. My view on this is that I would accept his existence but it would be the same as accepting the existence of any person, just with whatever extra abilities he'd have that we don't. He'd be like a ruler or a dictator and I don't see how he could be this benevolent creator people want to believe he is, plus it would be even less possible that he'd be a personal god/protector of each and every person. I think he'd be more like a scientist doing an experiment and we are the subjects, than anything else.
But more than that, we now would have to move the goalpost and face the questions, why does 'god' exist? who created 'god'? and on and on it goes...


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> That's the issue that points to God being a subjective human experience, that it's a matter of faith.
> If, somehow, today god were to objectively make its presence known to every and all humans the same way you and I exist, then it would cease to be god, he'd become a person, even if it's some weird powerful being. My view on this is that I would accept his existence but it would be the same as accepting the existence of any person, just with whatever extra abilities he'd have that we don't. He'd be like a ruler or a dictator and I don't see how he could be this benevolent creator people want to believe he is, plus it would be even less possible that he'd be a personal god/protector of each and every person. I think he'd be more like a scientist doing an experiment and we are the subjects, than anything else.
> But more than that, we now would have to move the goalpost and face the questions, why does 'god' exist? who created 'god'? and on and on it goes...


I think I was asking the questions you mentioned at the bottom from a very young age, like maybe age 6. I like it though, and my religion asks those questions and offers definite answers to those questions.

I can't speak for every religion, but a lot of religions actually do feel that God will dwell on earth and be universally accepted as God one day. I really want it to be Jesus, myself. There is kind of a description of what life would be like after that point in my religion. It is not supposed to last forever and is described as a time of beautiful peace. With some interesting things, like Satan being able to tempt the children born who had never been tempted in that life towards the end of that time period and then the earth turning into something else. A different kind of planet. Wow, it is weird for me to just talk about that with ambiguity and not hushed tones and mystery the way I usually hear it.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Llyralen said:


> I think I was asking the questions you mentioned at the bottom from a very young age, like maybe age 6. I like it though, and my religion asks those questions and offers definite answers to those questions.
> 
> I can't speak for every religion, but a lot of religions actually do feel that God will dwell on earth and be universally accepted as God one day. I really want it to be Jesus, myself. There is kind of a description of what life would be like after that point in my religion. It is not supposed to last forever and is described as a time of beautiful peace. With some interesting things, like Satan being able to tempt the children born who had never been tempted in that life towards the end of that time period and then the earth turning into something else. A different kind of planet. Wow, it is weird for me to just talk about that with ambiguity and not hushed tones and mystery the way I usually hear it.


and what are those answers?

Then god would simply be some type of alien being that wants to rule, like the Goa'uld in Stargate. Those people just need someone to tell them what to do, another form of their subjective needs being expressed and projected into an image named God.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Llyralen said:


> Me, personally, if confronted with my own questions, I'd say that I probably do ignore everything about anything punitive from God. Does this mean my understanding of God is incomplete?


I doubt you could find two intelligent believers with the exact same idea of god. Our understanding is rarely more complete than we are.



> For someone with faith, a feeling of hope is pretty essential. What if on all of these things. Right now, I feel like I would still want communication with God to give it all meaning and that meaning would almost be the only redemption in some horrible accident like my neighbor had.
> On the other hand, people without faith must somehow get through these things... but I'm not sure what wisdom they find or what peace or how and that would be very interesting. All my life I've pretty much only known adults with faith to show me how they get through hard things.


It seems to me what you're really asking is, "God has been this parent to me that I can lay XYZ upon and trust and not be burdened by XYZ, and what if that isn't what God is". You're trying to define God, and some part of you worries that you haven't got quite the right definition.

I don't think you need to define or understand God to receive solace and strength from God. It seems to me that the more you try to define God, the more you're inviting these worries into your life. If you feel God, why do you need to understand or define God? If God is who you say God is, would you even be able to comprehend God?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> I doubt you could find two intelligent believers with the exact same idea of god. Our understanding is rarely more complete than we are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whatever it is that I’m doing, luckily I’m not feeling too worried. I don’t feel like I’m seeking or expecting definition right now, instead I’m kind of amazed by the depth of my current ambiguity. I think THATs what I’m exploring/challenging/teasing out and that is new to me. A feeling that faith has returned in strength and yet none of the definitions that I am used to are maintained and I haven’t gotten to talk to people about how they experience these things— except here, for which I thank you. But we are now on the tip of the iceberg of my ambiguity— I sense depths. All new. I guess this agrees with you, except for with my Fi I have to process how I feel about all of this before I’m able to really do much else— you know? How can I be authentic until I have a better self-knowledge? Internal changes must be processed, not that I feel like I’ve found definitive answers, but Ne and Fi must explore new territory and I’m thankful to be able to do so with my friend Marv and others here. : ).


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Preface:

I haven't fully organized my thoughts on this topic yet, but I figured I should type up a post instead of processing for another three weeks.

My relationship with God is much different than other people I know, including other INFPs and other Christians. Also, my beliefs are different. i.e. I do not believe Jesus is God and hell is not a place of eternal judgment and in this discussion the most important being that I believe God is a real being. I mostly just focus on my own relationship with God instead of on other peoples' relationship, but I'll try to decipher the motivations of the other types in my church. I don't think "NF" is enough of a separator between how people view God, and I find that using the first two functions that people have is a more useful tool to distinguish how people are doing in their relationship with God.

_"Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?"_
While everyone in my church attempts to have the good values as outlined in the Bible, different types definitely put more weight on some areas more than others.

When I say "acts of godly devotion" in the list below, I'm mainly thinking preaching, but it also includes saying encouraging words to fellow believers, giving talks, construction work, and the like. The following is my evaluation of how the types connect with God in my congregation and NOT the people I talk to when preaching.. that's a whole another post.

::


INFP/ENFP- seem to find developing a personal relationship with God the easiest. Compared to expected distributions of NFPs in the population, a large number of these concentrate in my church. These people can see God more readily through the Bible and more abstract thinking. Appreciates God on his cardinal qualities more than other ones.

INTJ- seem to find developing a personal relationship with God the second easiest. Study very hard, and rely heavily on reading the Bible to see God as real. See above.

INFJ/ENFJ- please don't ask me what these people think about. Even when they open up and explain their thoughts to me, I do not follow. Like the NFPs, they seem to do quite well in their ability to develop a relationship with God and are able to adapt their values more readily than most.

ENTJ- have only met three and would call each of them exemplary Christians. Good people, no idea what makes them tick.

ESFP/ISFP- seem to struggle in viewing God as a real being. It seems they have to perform acts of godly devotion in order to convince themselves God is real. Living a Christian life is hard, so when life is able to squeeze away time to do godly things, their personal study does not hold them up very well. There are only a few SFPs in my congregation though SFPs are supposed to make up a large portion of the population.

ISTP/ESTP- there are very few ISTP/ESTPs in my congregation, the two that I know never let me into their heads.

ISFJ- I don't understand these people, but I always see them out and about applying Bible principles. Like the SFPs I think they put high value on doing to believing. Large number of them in my congregation.

ISTJ- seem immovable in their beliefs or much weaker in faith, and seems to be very dependent on how hard they study the Bible. Some of them routinely perform acts of godly devotion, yet their faith does not seem to be much built up by them. Those that study hard can view God as very real and make the corresponding sacrifices to follow God more fully, but there are many who do not and struggle.

ESTJ- there are no ESTJs in my congregation for me to comment on.

ESFJ- have high hurdles to overcome. New ESFJs struggle heavily and rely on their relationship with certain people in my congregation to keep them coming. Lock them in a prison, and the new ESFJs may struggle to sustain their faith. Those that overcome their Ti hurdle seem to be well balanced in their ability to view God through physical acts of devotion and personal study.

ENTP- there are no ENTPs in my congregation for me to comment on. 

INTP- See God differently than other types. They're always bringing up interesting points from their personal study and seem to have a broader view of who God is than the other types because they focus on his other qualities- like his patience as compared to his love. Somehow they get by with study as compared to working for God, which they do comparatively less of.

(I'm sure the post above doesn't make too much sense, or may not have answered the question well. I'm having a hard time organizing these thoughts.)

In conclusion:
_Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?_
Yes.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> Do you feel like 2 people will hear the same sermon or talk or scripture and get vastly different ideas about the nature of God?


Yes, and even more so when it involves doctrine. For instance, two people of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (Mormons) knocked on my door and told me that Adam and Eve sinning was part of God's master plan, I was astounded. I, on the other hand, pointed out Psalms 37:11, mentioned that Adam and Eve were created on Earth, that God is love, and that God is merciful.

Those that believe the Mormon doctrine must subsequently deal with the thoughts that God is not loving:
a. God manipulated perfect humans to sin and die
b. God caused sin to enter the world and caused the rest of humanity to deal with sickness, death, etc
c. God caused his own Son to die on behalf of his own bad decision

____________

Some people read some verses God and Jesus being in union, then they think God is part of a trinity. The trinity doctrine is supposed to be mysterious, and it makes it hard for people to get to know God; however other verses show that God wants people to get to know him. (James 4:8) Which is it?

It really shouldn't be confusing to get to know the nature of God, but 2 people will hear the same sermon or read the same scripture and get vastly different ideas.



> Do you feel like your God favors mercy? Do you feel like another’s version of God puts more emphasis on judgement or even punitive methods or all the “shalt nots” or ceremonies?


Yes.

Yes. Those that feel that God puts more emphasis on judgment clearly have not understood God's thoughts regarding the matter: that the "[Mosaic] Law was a shadow of things to come" and the precedent of the first Century Christians who were approved by God that wrote of only just a few laws to follow after abolishing the Mosaic law. (See Acts 15 regarding circumcision)


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## Monadnock (May 27, 2017)

Sparky said:


> According to Neale Donald Walsch and Erin Pavlina, God is all loving and all accepting. To God, you are perfect the way you are. There is also no hell, as all souls go to Heaven, and people choose to be in physical form, to experience their Divinity, or express Who They Really Are.


Well that may appeal to our narcissistic side, but if everyone's perfect then nothing evil is going to happen and no mistakes are going to be made. So we can quickly reject that belief.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

God doesn't exist, except as a necessary projection of the human psyche, even for non-believers. But, the only thing that's real is the subjective experience, there's really no meaning to a tree falling in a forest that nobody hears. So, in this way God's real, but it's a long way from asserting Christian Fundamentalism's truth.

Anyway, that's where this NF landed. My God's pretty chill.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

All fascinating insights @secondpassing from a unique vantage point that I usually would not get to witness! Btw, I am well familiar with the LDS faith. so I will pm you on your conclusions about Adam and Eve’s fall in Mormonism . But just to reassure you, Mormons see the master plan as good, God is good, Jesus’ sacrifice as pre-ordained and accepted by Jesus as his part in the plan before Adam ever went to earth, bodies are holy, life is to have joy but also to experience adversity for the sake of eternal progression and  learning. Sin in avoidable since only Jesus is perfect, life and all it’s hardships are no punishment.. . Mormons are keen on believing that God would not punish every human for one human’s sin. I will pm before I go too far. It really is fascinating all the things that that one doctrine can represent in world view. In fact it ends up having a profound effect on the emphasis on freedom of choice. Mormonism has sometimes been called Pelagian. 

Okay, this is fantastic what you have seen and written here about all the different types and their way to worship! I particularly would find talking with you about observations of IXTJ faith interesting. I do find the IxTJ’s view of the same religion fascinating. Watching my IXTJ brother and neighbor’s faith has been interesting for me, especially when their Fi grows. 

My mother in law is ESTJ. The upstanding citizen stuff applies well in her religious life. Her personal belief is more like childlike acceptance and then her service is amazing. There seems to be much less qualms and questions, but also much less personal questioning or seeking for individual interpretation or understanding which seems pretty much irrelevant to ExTJs IMO. 

I will likely pm you later, I hope that is okay. I think it could be an amicable and thought provoking discussion.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

I really want to keep doctrines and individual beliefs to a minimum on this thread if possible since it could go all different directions but what I’m really wanting to know in this thread is what people seem to experience themselves (maybe with your first 2 functions along with potential problems from inferior functions) in contrast to other types. Not that I can really control this thread, but I am not asking anyone to define God or to notify the rest of us of the divine or scientific Truth. 

I’m also kind of interested in what you guys see politically as an extension of different MBTI types’ faith. 

To avoid sounding hypocritical, I have made some comments about individual doctrine here in this thread in order to show people what I mean by my questions through examples and also to prevent misinformation or misunderstandings about any religion from being spread. 

I really am not asking about the nature of god truly, instead I am interested in seeing how different people of different MBTI types experience the interpretations of their doctrine different than others around them. I’m also interested in how observing those differences affects you. 

Like locus of control? Service and duty? Personal belief vs outward signs? Heart and mind ratio (I know people who are all heart but understand nothing about their religion with their mind and vice-versa.

Btw @Red Panda. I did see your question. I will pm you later.


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I really want to keep doctrines and individual beliefs to a minimum on this thread if possible since it could go all different directions but what I’m really wanting to know in this thread is what people seem to experience in contrast to other types. Not that I can completely control this thread, but I am not asking anyone to define God or to notify the rest of us of the divine or scientific Truth.
> 
> I’m also kind of interested in what you guys see politically as an extension of different MBTI types’ faith.
> 
> ...


If that was a response to me, what a God means to a person has very much to do individual belief and their conception of God. Those things are very intertwined. Can't have one without another.

I understand that you don't want a competition of beliefs, but you really have to state a belief to illustrate what the result of that belief means. My particular comment is very much a reaction to being raised Christian, and my ultimate interpretation of what it means as an NF. It seems to be pretty illustrative, as it focuses on the subjective (F) and is a very abstract (N) view.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Whippit said:


> If that was a response to me, what a God means to a person has very much to do individual belief and their conception of God. Those things are very intertwined. Can't have one without another.
> 
> I understand that you don't want a competition of beliefs, but you really have to state a belief to illustrate what the result of that belief means.


Hi Whippit... you are correct. While you were typing this I was also editing mine because I do know everyone needs to know where they are starting from in order to compare themselves to anyone else. 

I was partially responding to your post but also to other posts and future posts and if this thread ends up running for a while I will probably have to state my questions many times since I realize the title was probably not specific enough, but I thought the title sounded good at the time and only some people have read through my long questions. 

Of course I do want your input too! 

So can I ask you to elaborate on your belief related to your type? . How do you relate your beliefs to being an ENFP? Or maybe you don’t? Do you see different people worshipping or believing in different ways and relate it to MBTI type at all?


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## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> Hi Whippit... you are correct. While you were typing this I was also editing mine because I do know everyone needs to know where they are starting from in order to compare themselves to anyone else.
> 
> I was partially responding to your post but also to other posts and future posts and if this thread ends up running for a while I will probably have to state my questions many times since I realize the title was probably not specific enough, but I thought the title sounded good at the time.
> 
> ...


Yes! I don't often think of my religious beliefs as related to MBTI, but I'm sure there's a relation. I started out in a pretty strict Fundamentalist religion, and ended up leaving it at about 13, up until then I was a true believer. This isn't that uncommon, but I end up hearing the story often from T's, especially NT's who become atheists because religion doesn't make Scientific sense. The reasoning for me was very ENFP.



xxFP (Fi): I felt like my religion specifically didn't make moral sense; under review, God didn't seem like a nice guy.
ExxP: I didn't go into being an atheist, that seemed a little to harsh and reactive, and instead decided to do a lot of searching, trying out and exploring new ways to believe.
xNxP: Ultimately I never really settled on an ANSWER, but I toggle often between conceptual frameworks established from my Fundamentalist days which are about being human and feeling connected to the universe and having an objective and scientific understanding of the world. They have their own realities and live together under tension.

My God spoke to me once, and directly, and God said to me, "You're OK, Relax", and then became pretty abstract and non-demanding. I haven't heard anything since.

I've never done any systematic evaluations of other's by MBTI type and their relationship to their God. There's plenty of really easy connections to make, like INTJs like the idea of order and a convergent nature of the universe, ISTJs like tradition and order, etc. But, I don't know that me making those theoretically predictive points is that helpful.

What was very interesting to me was interacting with my good friend while in my 20's, he was an INTP and a Seventh Day Adventist, and he was married to an INFJ. They were both devout in their own ways. He was always willing to talk Theology with me, and didn't feel threatened by non-Christian ideas, and it seemed like his main connection to his church was in community, he never doubted his faith. But he would relate to me that his wife actually heard God's voice talking to her, and he felt that like because he couldn't talk to God like that, it meant he wasn't as faithful.

It's especially interesting to me because INTPs are associated with Atheism, and his relationship to his religion had everything to do with his Tert-Fe and perceiver nature. Sometimes being a Perceiver means you just stick with stuff because you started out there. And besides Religion, everything INTP about him came out, Sci-Fi, logic based board games, and complete social obliviousness.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Monadnock said:


> Well that may appeal to our narcissistic side, but if everyone's perfect then nothing evil is going to happen and no mistakes are going to be made. So we can quickly reject that belief.


Nothing evil happens in the eyes of God, that's true, and no mistakes are ever made, as everything happens with purpose. However, people do have free will, and sometimes, one person's free will can take away that of others, as when someone kills another or takes another hostage


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Llyralen said:


> All fascinating insights @secondpassing from a unique vantage point that I usually would not get to witness! Btw, I am well familiar with the LDS faith. so I will pm you on your conclusions about Adam and Eve’s fall in Mormonism . But just to reassure you, Mormons see the master plan as good, God is good, Jesus’ sacrifice as pre-ordained and accepted by Jesus as his part in the plan before Adam ever went to earth, bodies are holy, life is to have joy but also to experience adversity for the sake of eternal progression and learning. Sin in avoidable since only Jesus is perfect, life and all it’s hardships are no punishment.. . Mormons are keen on believing that God would not punish every human for one human’s sin. I will pm before I go too far. It really is fascinating all the things that that one doctrine can represent in world view. In fact it ends up having a profound effect on the emphasis on freedom of choice. Mormonism has sometimes been called Pelagian.
> 
> Okay, this is fantastic what you have seen and written here about all the different types and their way to worship! I particularly would find talking with you about observations of IXTJ faith interesting. I do find the IxTJ’s view of the same religion fascinating. Watching my IXTJ brother and neighbor’s faith has been interesting for me, especially when their Fi grows.
> 
> ...


I may have misframed the beliefs of the Latter Day Saints, if so, I apologize. Anyway, I did hope to illustrate how belief and interpretation would affect how people would view God. The list I posted really reflected how people approached God, but in my congregation. Different churches with different doctrines would appeal to different people.

If you do decide to pm me, I must warn you I may not engage you in a discussion. It would depend on who you cite as an authority and what you are pm'ing me about. I'll definitely not be rude.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm more on line with Sparky here.

~~

God or a type of creator/being who controls all is incomprehensible for some people or hard to understand why some "bad" decisions of made, from lack of understanding of context or whatever else. People criticize what they do not understand, well, sometimes. It is hard for us beings whom seem to be mortal and limited to this physical life to try and comprehend an omnipresent immortal being and its will.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

But overall, God is love, God is about love. People have a hard time understanding the elements of God's "tough love" though.


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

Llyralen said:


> This will likely be a sensitive topic.
> 
> Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?
> Do you feel like 2 people will hear the same sermon or talk or scripture and get vastly different ideas about the nature of God?
> ...


Yes. I'm sure personality does influence your interpretation and what you focus on. But I think this can be sort of 'muddled' with the religious culture you're in as well - different societies, different church denominations etc. will emphasize different things, and that may clash with or encourage your own personal inclinations. I think sometimes different people may look like they have very different ideas about God, and both may be right because they are each only focusing on certain aspects of the truth. 

My INTJ best friend and I have fairly similar church background, but we definitely focus on different aspects of God and the messages in the Bible. I'm much more focused on God's love, mercy, and beautiful creativity, while she tends to cringe at 'soft mushy' things and has an attitude of "life isn't supposed to be easy", but she focuses on how God will help strengthen you through adversity and use those hardships to make you a better person. 

I definitely agree with *Sour Roses* that understanding scripture requires study of the culture and language in which it was written, and that different translations can make a big difference in how people understand it - on top of their personal biases.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Aelthwyn said:


> My INTJ best friend and I have fairly similar church background, but we definitely focus on different aspects of God and the messages in the Bible. I'm much more focused on God's love, mercy, and beautiful creativity, while she tends to cringe at 'soft mushy' things and has an attitude of "life isn't supposed to be easy", but she focuses on how God will help strengthen you through adversity and use those hardships to make you a better person.
> 
> I definitely agree with *Sour Roses* that understanding scripture requires study of the culture and language in which it was written, and that different translations can make a big difference in how people understand it - on top of their personal biases.


Where's the soft mushy stuff? :dry:

Yeah, the Greeks had four words for love, and it's not the mushy one that God is described as being.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

secondpassing said:


> Preface:
> 
> INFJ/ENFJ- please don't ask me what these people think about. Even when they open up and explain their thoughts to me, I do not follow. Like the NFPs, they seem to do quite well in their ability to develop a relationship with God and are able to adapt their values more readily than most.


HA HA HA! We can't even follow our own thoughts! I'm always trying to explain to MYSELF WTF it is that I believe! All is know is that it is WEIRD as hell.


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## UberY0shi (Nov 24, 2016)

Llyralen said:


> This will likely be a sensitive topic.


Nah. Is fascinating to me. 



> Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?


Yes. This may or may not have any correlation with personal values. People have been in disagreement on God forever.



> Do you feel like 2 people will hear the same sermon or talk or scripture and get vastly different ideas about the nature of God?


Yup. Just like any other lecture regarding interpretative subjects. I'm certain this has been tested in experimentation and found to be accurate. People have no clue how other people think about God. 



> Do you feel like your God favors mercy?


Your wording presents problems. It sounds like the "your" implies a person can possess a God separate from others. I'll assume you mean a personal interpretation/experience of God. This would not be the same God as depicted in Christian scripture. But a person's interpretation of said God or any other God. Even Peter Jordanson said that the absolute highest value in your personal hierarchy of values is your God. Using that definition as an interpretative God, my God would not favor mercy, assuming this is a dichotomy between mercy and justice. Too much to elaborate on there as to why that is the case.



> Do you feel like another’s version of God puts more emphasis on judgement or even punitive methods or all the “shalt nots” or ceremonies?


I'm of the opinion that nobody has any idea of another person's perspective on God. One can try to communicate their interpretation but then it would immediately collapse into a critique of a person's understanding of the collectively accepted, objective, scripture-based God. I'll go with no in response to your question though.



> When people talk about “blessings” from God, are you likely to think they are talking about physical blessings? Or are you likely to think they mean emotional blessings? And what would something like “spiritual blessings” be?


Ahhhh yes, the fun part. 
con·fir·ma·tion bi·as
noun: the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories. 
We seek patterns in a chaotic, random environment to improve our understanding and establish orientation. Sometimes, we seek patterns that confirm we are correct in our worldview. That is all.



> What do you see and experience compared to others hearing the same messages about values as you? What do you feel others experience?


Too NF, I can't.



> I feel like maybe everyone reframes messages to fit their worldview.


Correct. Cognitive dissonance is extremely uncomfortable. Confirmation bias is very comfortable.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

A controversial topic, indeed...




> Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?





> Do you feel like 2 people will hear the same sermon or talk or scripture and get vastly different ideas about the nature of God?
> 
> Do you feel like your God favors mercy? Do you feel like another’s version of God puts more emphasis on judgement or even punitive methods or all the “shalt nots” or ceremonies?




Your questions sound so limiting. It is like guessing at the personality of God. Although I do believe in God as a person and having personality, it is not the same as how we have personalities. For humans, personalities are masks. Here we are trying to discern the true nature of God. There can be no masks. It is not so much based on an individual's values but the knowledge that they have. Sometimes it is not chosen, but handed down, as in traditions. So it has very little to do with MBTI but more on upbringing, customs, investigation, and self-reflection. What, or Who, is God for you?

In one word, God for me is the Creator. This connotes the power to both create and destroy. Also, only He knows the blueprint, the plan for everything. Being "created in God's image", in my interpretation, is having part of that power to create. Hence, we all have personal realities. But there is only one absolute reality, and that is the one that God Created. Everything else is a powerful illusion.




> When people talk about “blessings” from God, are you likely to think they are talking about physical blessings? Or are you likely to think they mean emotional blessings? And what would something like “spiritual blessings” be?





> What do you see and experience compared to others hearing the same messages about values as you? What do you feel others experience?




I have yet to experience a major spiritual blessing. But I've heard so many testimonies of families' lives being changed after converting or taking Christianity seriously. Not only say, getting out of mountains of debt, but finding vocations that reach out to others and actually change lives. Harmonious family life instead of bickering. Children doing well in school and not being bullied, all of a sudden. That kind of thing.

I know these things are real, but at the same time I haven't experienced for myself. I've seen someone healed in front of my eyes. I've heard people prophesy. There are spiritual gifts and callings but somehow God forgot to leave some for me.

In this sense, you may think of God as a hacker. Since He built the whole thing, He can hack into the Matrix and create "miracles", like turning water into wine, healing the sick, or resurrecting the dead. These are things that can't be done strictly following the program. But God has the Key to defy the laws of physics and biology.




> I feel like maybe everyone reframes messages to fit their worldview. I tend to ignore the judgement parts, others I know might ignore all the parts about charity or think it means just charity to neighbors— neighbors they like who agree with them and have the same types of problems as them.


Reframing might be the best term here. Ignoring is too harsh and not a good idea. There are reasons scriptures are full of warnings. Of course, we are not perfect, neither is our understanding. So it is normal to pick and choose which teachings to focus on and follow.

I don't see it so much as punishment as consequences for not following natural laws. There are reasons for all the rules. Most have to do with safety and/or health. Even the spiritual rules safeguard us against confusion. The trick is to believe in one thing (god) and stick to that instead of complicating matters by introducing other gods.


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## yippy nr 2 (Jun 26, 2019)

For me God is the force of creation. I don't see Him as an entitity/a person, but more like a type of consciousness. A level of consciousness that in theory any living creature can reach. Because we are all created in the image of our creator and we are all part of him et vice versa. God is in you and that is where you should look.

This force, called God, created the foundations of the universe and it sowed the first seeds of life. Since this is a universe of free will life evolved as life felt it should. So I don't believe God to be the designer of life in all detail, but he is more like a scientists who created the experiment of life...sat back....and watched how it all unfolded. 

God is in everything and everything is in God. What we call 'evil' and 'darkness' is also part of God, an expression of him, a creation. Yet we humans tend to view things from a dualistic standpoint. There is good & bad, cruelty & mercy, light & darkness. Yet God transcends it all. In God there is only unity......unity consciousness. A form of being that has integrated everything into itself, feels connected to everything, and accepts.....loves.....every single aspect of him without conditions. 

God is not cruel. God does not seek to punish. God, however, wants you to learn...grow...and experience so God can learn too. It is a two way street. He created the law of cause & effect so you will experience the consequences of your actions. This can come across as tough love, yes. But I assure you He does not seek to punish you at all, although it may seem that way at times (I know this from personal experience).

There was also question if God can be different for anyone. Yes. God is in everything. It doesn't matter whether you see God in a mountain, in the sun, in a bear, in Buddha, in Allah or in Yahweh. It is all an interpretation....a version...of God in which one chooses to belief. 

He doesn't require sacrifice or worship. He doesn't need satisfying. He loves you already, without conditions. And. He wants you to fall in love with yourself in the same way that He loves you. Because that is the starting point from which you can create a truly meaningful life. A life filled with 'miracles'.


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## neutralchaotic (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh ooh [pulls up a chair]!



> Do you think different MBTI types view God very differently based on their values?
> Do you feel like 2 people will hear the same sermon or talk or scripture and get vastly different ideas about the nature of God?


I think so! Though I know who God is: 'God is love. God is glory. God is honor. God is omnipotent. King of kings, Lord of lords', I know that God reveals Himself to individuals in the manner that is most easily digested for them. For me, God is my Source, but He is my Father first and foremost, and does more than simply cover my needs. For others, that can be all that God does [though they are younger, my SP sibling].

Let those who have eyes see, right? Everyone will gain their own revelations of God as they walk with Him and meditate on His word. Hell, I have listened to some talks over 20 times, and come away with something deeper, or look at it from a different angle depending on my mindset that day, or that hour. 



> Do you feel like your God favors mercy? Do you feel like another’s version of God puts more emphasis on judgement or even punitive methods or all the “shalt nots” or ceremonies?


Ultimately, God will act in a way that, at the very least, attempts to bring us to His original purpose for us, which is to have dominion over the earth. I couldn't say whether mercy or judgement is favored, but I do think there's an appointed time for both [Corinthians 4:5]. I mean, there's this whole Judgement Day thing that has to happen eventually, so I figure God is waiting until then.

I don't think God cares about ceremonies nearly as much as just having a relationship with Him. All the ceremonies and rituals that are in place in [Christianity/Judaism] today came after the fall of Adam. When Adam was in the straight and narrow, he didn't have sacrifices and communion and worship services and all that. He walked with God, and he worked as God intended him to work.



> When people talk about “blessings” from God, are you likely to think they are talking about physical blessings? Or are you likely to think they mean emotional blessings? And what would something like “spiritual blessings” be?


I think they're talking about physical blessings. "I got blessed with x" is something I see a lot. Seems that only physical goodies can be attributed to the goodness of God. :tongue: Spiritual blessings are those that help you to mature, and come in the form of revelation. They also deal with mindset changes, new attitudes and thoughts, etc. When I refer to being blessed, I am usually referring to spiritual blessings.



> What do you see and experience compared to others hearing the same messages about values as you? What do you feel others experience?


Hmm, I don't really know how to answer this question. It feels too vague.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

if you want to know Who God is, spend a whole day trying to imagine what it would feel like to be totally loved, and totally accepted, and totally cherished, and totally supported. By an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being who is, actually, the totality of Reality. 

If you succeed by 1%, you will never need to ask yourself again what God is.


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