# Could someone help me understand the Heart Triad?



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

recently, while going through some of the profiles in the "What's My Enneagram Type?" subforum, I realized that I don't understand the heart triad very well. I can give people a briefing on some of their basic fears, defense mechanisms and general vibe but, honestly, I just don't understand shame? why do people ashamed? why do people need acceptance? what makes people sensitive?


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Hmm, when someone thinks I'm stupid (or even mentally handicapped), that does sting a lot, so I'd rather they think I'm smart or whatever. With that said, a lot of of the time I feel bad for not living up to _my own _standards. Yeah, I don't know how helpful that is.

(Dont you like attention, though?)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Nonsense said:


> (Dont you like attention, though?)


that's different. liking attention is more of a 7 thing. in fact, in a lot of ways, 7 is kind of a pseudo-heart type
- narcissistic self-absorbed tendencies rather than real emotion
- a desire for attention, but merely for the mental stimulation and desire to "get a rise out of people"
- enjoying the thrill of drama, but not really actually feeling anything. for example, when I was really unhealthy in my high school years, I made a scene a few times when someone made fun of me, only to realize later, I didn't actually care. I was simply bored and wanted to stir something up for attention and entertainment. in fact, part of it might have even been an attempt to make myself feel something but, that didn't end up working in the end. 
- a large ego and sense of grandiose intensity can give the impression of genuine emotion, even when it isn't

the experience of _genuine_ sensitivity has always been a subject of fascination to me and, until recently, something I had no recollection of. while I've had a bit of experience with it recently, it's still something I lack experience with and would like to learn more about.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> recently, while going through some of the profiles in the "What's My Enneagram Type?" subforum, I realized that I don't understand the heart triad very well. I can give people a briefing on some of their basic fears, defense mechanisms and general vibe but, honestly, I just don't understand shame? why do people ashamed? why do people need acceptance? what makes people sensitive?


In a way, the Heart types see themselves primarily in the context of other people. Shame tends to happen when someone fails to measure up in some way with other people, or if someone fails to uphold an image of themselves (whether it's being helpful, respected, or authentic). Things like losing face and embarrassment are especially tough for the Heart triad because it causes shame; shame causes isolation, and when a Heart person is isolated from other people, they lose that context.

All of this is to say that the Heart types on a fundamental level care about how they are seen by other people.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's different. liking attention is more of a 7 thing. in fact, in a lot of ways, 7 is kind of a pseudo-heart type
> - narcissistic self-absorbed tendencies rather than real emotion
> - a desire for attention, but merely for the mental stimulation and desire to "get a rise out of people"
> - enjoying the thrill of drama, but not really actually feeling anything. for example, when I was really unhealthy in my high school years, I made a scene a few times when someone made fun of me, only to realize later, I didn't actually care. I was simply bored and wanted to stir something up for attention and entertainment. in fact, part of it might have even been an attempt to make myself feel something but, that didn't end up working in the end.
> ...


Hmm, you don't care how you come across at all? I see you don't nescessarily want to be seen as _kind, _but still.
(lol, I dont like causing drama at all, to be honest(though it can be entertaining to observe). Almost makes me consider 9-core.)

It is interesting experiencing new things isnt it?^^


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Ice Ghost said:


> All of this is to say that the Heart types on a fundamental level care about how they are seen by other people.


Well said! Heart triad is a bit of a mystery to me too but what I've understood is that heart types define themselves a lot based on their social interactions, interpretations of how others see themselves, the feedback they get and how they compare themselves to others. They are image types after all. Wanting to seem likable (type 2), successful (type 3) or unique (type 4), they pay a lot of attention to how they come across and it _is_ a big thing for them! Their image is _very _essential and important to them, something that seems to give them value and worth. They do not want anything to "spoil" it. 

Head and gut types are both less aware of such things and also less interested and motivated, it's not their main focus anyway. So-doms might feel a bit different though, depending on the individual, but they still differ from image types. Image could be important to them but not as strongly related to their sense of value and they do not tend to have the same awareness of those things than image types have naturally.


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## Herp (Nov 25, 2010)

I may be overly simplifying the whole triad, but I think it's something along these lines:

- Type 2 people want to define their own image by the way they interact with others - if others think good of them, then they are good. (But they don't know who they are exactly, in essence)
- Type 4 people want to define their own image by excluding the interaction with others - if they think they are good, then they are good (But they still feel bad for not being like others)
- Type 3 people want to define their image by seeing the way others interact with their own crafted image - if they agree with them, they are good. (This type creates an image like the four, but want confirmation like the two)

The type 2 is directing his attention outside (Compliant triad member), the type 4 is directing his attention inside (Withdrawn triad member) and the type 3 is trying to get from the outside what it wants (assertive triad member). This is way too simple to explain these types, but it makes for a simple paradigm that each types seem to follow, based on what I understand of them.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, you don't care how you come across at all? I see you don't nescessarily want to be seen as _kind, _but still.


to be honest, I don't. I know a lot of people who say this are full of shit, but, for the most part, I really don't, with a few exceptions
1) I want people to know that they can't fuck with me. 
2) I want to be seen as sexually desirable (in that regard, I'm similar to the Sexual 3)
now, I often wish to _be_ kind, considerate, etc, but how this comes across others is seldom something I take into account. for instance, if I gave to someone, not only would I not care if they didn't do anything back for me, I don't even care about appreciation. when I give, it's as simple as "I felt like it". how they take it is up to them. I even once gave to a guy and he got really pissed at me and I just chuckled thinking "yeah, my ego gets a little frustrated when people give me stuff too lol".

I guess you could say I think "what you think of me is none of my business". imagine someone putting on a huge, dramatic show, but neither seeing the audience nor caring what they think. the performer simply performs because that's what he loves doing and it gives him a rush. this is what the majority of my life feels like. there's just me doing whatever crazy shit I feel like, whether alone or with another person. there was a certain point where something clicked and I realized "oh, other people have rights and needs too" but even then, I didn't change my behavior to change how I came across, but to keep from disrupting something someone else was doing. for instance, I realize that a teacher/professor has a limited amount of time to get through a large amount of material, so I can't just go making everything about me and being the loud, distracting mess that is my natural personality because shit just wouldn't get done. 



> It is interesting experiencing new things isnt it?^^


indeed. there was a part of it that was actually somewhat enjoyable despite the pain it brought. it was as if part of me was saying "so this is what being alive feels like"

anyway, thank you for the questions, but, as much as I love talking about myself, the original intention of this thread was to explain the heart triad. on a deeper level.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Herp said:


> I may be overly simplifying the whole triad, but I think it's something along these lines:
> - Type 2 people want to define their own image by the way they interact with others - if others think good of them, then they are good. (But they don't know who they are exactly, in essence)
> - Type 4 people want to define their own image by excluding the interaction with others - if they think they are good, then they are good (But they still feel bad for not being like others)
> - Type 3 people want to define their image by seeing the way others interact with their own crafted image - if they agree with them, they are good. (This type creates an image like the four, but want confirmation like the two)
> The type 2 is directing his attention outside (Compliant triad member), the type 4 is directing his attention inside (Withdrawn triad member) and the type 3 is trying to get from the outside what it wants (assertive triad member). This is way too simple to explain these types, but it makes for a simple paradigm that each types seem to follow, based on what I understand of them.


thank you for sharing, but I was looking for something a few layers deeper. it's the fundamental need for emotional/social support/validation that I just don't get.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> thank you for sharing, but I was looking for something a few layers deeper. it's the fundamental need for emotional/social support/validation that I just don't get.


Just to add to what I said above, I think that the Heart types have an innate sense of interdependence than the other triads, meaning that their sense of self is tied to other people, for better or worse.

FWIW, there may be some overlap between the Heart triad and the Social instinct. -_-


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> anyway, thank you for the questions, but, as much as I love talking about myself, the original intention of this thread was to explain the heart triad. on a deeper level.


Well, I'm thinking it's easier to understand something if you can apply it to your own experience.

You say you want to be seen as desirable, so this is one example where you might need outside validation. So replace "desirable" with good or successful or whatever. Does that make sense?


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> to be honest, I don't. I know a lot of people who say this are full of shit, but, for the most part, I really don't, with a few exceptions
> 1) I want people to know that they can't fuck with me.
> 2) I want to be seen as sexually desirable (in that regard, I'm similar to the Sexual 3)
> now, I often wish to _be_ kind, considerate, etc, but how this comes across others is seldom something I take into account. for instance, if I gave to someone, not only would I not care if they didn't do anything back for me, I don't even care about appreciation. when I give, it's as simple as "I felt like it". how they take it is up to them. I even once gave to a guy and he got really pissed at me and I just chuckled thinking "yeah, my ego gets a little frustrated when people give me stuff too lol".
> ...


This, coming from the person who consistently posts new threads with his username in the subject line???

Me thinks one doth protest too much.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

I feel like the Heart Triad is the worst understood. For example, I don't think it's very accurate that they're associated with shame. (In the sense that they would say something like "I'm so ashamed!") I'd say it's more associated with rejection. Also I hate them being known as The Feeling Triad, cause to me the point of The Heart Triad is the lack of emotional intelligence. I feel like 2, 3, and 4 are always sort of out of touch with their feelings, and they compensate with a self-image, which is almost like a form of artificial emotion. 2's emotions are sort of directed by society, and what is considered good and acceptable, hence them denying or even being unaware of negative feelings. 3's emotions are there but are either ignored or replaced and eventually out of reach. 4 may be confused or out of touch with natural emotions so they create feelings and traits manually, with their imagination.

I guess you could say they're ashamed of the parts of themselves that they haven't included in their image, or the characteristics they'd rather not have. That's probably why they can get defensive and hurt when you try to look at them in more depth. Like if you were to say to a 2 "You don't really want to help me, you just feel like you have to!", or to a 3 "You're a big phony!" or something to that effect. I still don't completely understand though why emotional unawareness and fear of rejection so often go hand-in-hand with each other. I guess if an image is all you have inside and that image is threatened, it's pretty painful. 

I think the best way I can describe The Heart Triad is to imagine being told to accurately draw your personality on a canvas, if that was somehow possible. Then your presentation of yourself on that portrait is to be displayed at a friggin art show. 2 would take glitter and sparkles and add brighter colors and other distracting pleasantries like that to cover up the original image. 3 would somehow get a hold of an eraser and just get rid of whatever they didn't like, and then just keep editing the picture so it's no seen as ugly. 4 might intentionally screw up the picture and make it confusing so they can call it art when they're criticized.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Marlowe said:


> This, coming from the person who consistently posts new threads with his username in the subject line???
> Me thinks one doth protest too much.


what do you mean by "protest"?

if you're somehow referring to my intentions for making the thread,perhaps I came off as having the intention of saying "what's wrong with you sissies? why are you so damn sensitive?!" but this is not the case. the real reason is that, frankly, genuine sensitivity is something that eludes me. one 7 on an interview put it nicely. "I used to think I was an emotional person but, I'm really not. I spend more time thinking about my emotions than I do actually feeling them." really, unless someone in sexually desirable, I hardly care about them at all (even my own parents. the idea of feeling pressure to please one's parents is foreign to me). other than frustration, fear, anger or a general feeling "aww! that's cool!", the prevalence of something significantly emotionally impacting me is maybe once a year on average.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> what do you mean by "protest"?
> 
> if you're somehow referring to my intentions for making the thread,perhaps I came off as having the intention of saying "what's wrong with you sissies? why are you so damn sensitive?!" but this is not the case. the real reason is that, frankly, genuine sensitivity is something that eludes me. one 7 on an interview put it nicely. "I used to think I was an emotional person but, I'm really not. I spend more time thinking about my emotions than I do actually feeling them." really, unless someone in sexually desirable, I hardly care about them at all (even my own parents. the idea of feeling pressure to please one's parents is foreign to me). other than frustration, fear, anger or a general feeling "aww! that's cool!", the prevalence of something significantly emotionally impacting me is maybe once a year on average.












It was a joke. A J-O-K-E.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Marlowe said:


> It was a joke. A J-O-K-E.


oh :laughing:

this is why I postpone getting offended about things. XD


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## Herp (Nov 25, 2010)

@Swordsman of Mana,

Have you read this article?

Articles: The Essential Rationale for Shame as the Core Emotion of Heart Center


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Herp said:


> @Swordsman of Mana,
> Have you read this article?
> Articles: The Essential Rationale for Shame as the Core Emotion of Heart Center


I haven't, I shall have a look =)


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## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

I can only speak for myself, but I experience a lot of shame for not measuring up to my idea of my fantasy self. Constantly comparing myself to others, as well as having a form of magnifying glass over my shortcomings (identity and personality wise) only fuels this. I highly doubt a 4 would feel this way without others contributing to this impression, though. I've never, until recently, felt appreciated for who I was. I also felt painfully different from everyone around me. It's not simply a matter of being rejected, though that definitely played its part. Maybe I'm more attuned to these things than others, but I could and can tell very easily when there's simply a lack of connection with most people around me. I've always felt like an outsider, like I was broken inside, like something must be off for more than 10 years of failed attempts at reaching out to others.

Even though I'm not constantly worrying about it or anything of that sort, part of is expecting the people in my life to suddenly look at me and realize "Wait, why am I friends with this person? They're _nothing_." It's not even part of a conscious thought process, it's _that _much of a reflex for me. I just.. don't see what's so loveable about me beyond the image I project. It's not as tragic as it sounds, just.. a reality of sorts for me. I feel like the moment I stop trying to be noticed, the moment I stop projecting a form of image to 'lure people in', I'll fall back into invisibility.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> what do you mean by "protest"?
> 
> if you're somehow referring to my intentions for making the thread,perhaps I came off as having the intention of saying "what's wrong with you sissies? why are you so damn sensitive?!" but this is not the case. the real reason is that, frankly, genuine sensitivity is something that eludes me. one 7 on an interview put it nicely. "I used to think I was an emotional person but, I'm really not. I spend more time thinking about my emotions than I do actually feeling them." really, unless someone in sexually desirable, I hardly care about them at all (even my own parents. the idea of feeling pressure to please one's parents is foreign to me). other than frustration, fear, anger or a general feeling "aww! that's cool!", the prevalence of something significantly emotionally impacting me is maybe once a year on average.


If you care to cultivate it, sensitivity towards others begins with thinking about what the other person wants and feels (it's easier with a significant other) and realizing that you have more in common with each other than you think.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

Thanks for this thread @Swordsman of Mana. Being furthest away from the Image triad, I get rather confused about it. Although my sister and I have gotten into the habit of talking about the Enneagram together now, and how certain experiences of ours fit with it. My sister especially has gained a lot from it. Her tritype goes Image-Gut-Head. Mine goes Head-Gut-Image. We're mirror images of each other. It's very fun comparing our different ways of thinking. 

Now, I'm just warning you, I can't pretend I understand this. Out of all the Image types, type Four confuses me the most (lol), and type Two and type Three are more easily understood. 

I feel like each Heart type has a different place where they hang their identity (or what they see as what makes them _them_).

Type Twos like hanging their identity on how "good" and "helpful" they appear to be. Type Threes like hanging their identity on how "desirable" they appear to be. Type Fours like hanging their identity on how different they appear to be. Because they hang their identities on these various things, they have a hard time occasionally seeing past their image. Sometimes I think (especially for type Three) they tend to see the image as their identity. And when other people around them are not impressed by the image, or the image fails in some way, they feel shame.

But I don't know if shame is the perfect word. It's almost like Image types go through life attempting to justify their existence, to justify their worth. When they fail to reach The Standard, it is exceedingly painful. Now they feel worthless, unjustified.

When my sister and I talk together, she'll often slip into talking about how other people see her, and in what ways that bothers her and stuff. (Oftentimes she views relationships as "how they see me, how I see them" weirdly enough). I'll stand there and listen and try and see where she's seeing it all. That's because I pay little attention to image. First of all, when I meet people, it doesn't bother me oftentimes what sort of image they see in me (I assure you there are some exceptions to that rule, but that is how I usually feel). Usually I only care what sort of feelings are directed at me (I don't like to be downright hated, nor do I like anger to be directed towards me). I always like attempting to see past a person's persona. I like seeing what motivates them. My sister often sees what motivates people to put on what persona they've got -- or at least, that's the best way I can put it. 

Take that all with a grain of salt. The Image triad is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I can often understand it from a technical standpoint. It's wrapping my mind around that which is tricky.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Julia Bell said:


> But I don't know if shame is the perfect word. It's almost like Image types go through life attempting to justify their existence, to justify their worth. When they fail to reach The Standard, it is exceedingly painful. Now they feel worthless, unjustified.


What do you think would be a better word for that?


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## Bluity (Nov 12, 2012)

Nonsense said:


> What do you think would be a better word for that?


 Despair? Frustration? I can't think of a word that encapsulates the "trying and failing to live up to an acceptable image" idea.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Bluity said:


> Despair? Frustration? I can't think of a word that encapsulates the "trying and failing to live up to an acceptable image" idea.


Hmm, I think shame is a pretty good word for that, to be honest. Someone who feels like their existence has to be justified sounds like someone who feels a lot of shame at their core.

But maybe image-cores have some thoughts on this matter?


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## Chaerephon (Apr 28, 2013)

I think it comes down to having real high standards set for yourself. So even in comparison to others you are doing fine, there are these things you feel you should be doing that you are not meeting. I am pretty aware that I have high standards for myself I am not meeting, I don't like people to point out what I do wrong if it isn't really important. I am pretty intensely aware or most of the things I do wrong. In the end I still lead a fulfilled life, I just wish to fulfill it even more.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

Ice Ghost said:


> Just to add to what I said above, I think that the Heart types have an innate sense of interdependence than the other triads, meaning that their sense of self is tied to other people, for better or worse.
> 
> FWIW, there may be some overlap between the Heart triad and the Social instinct. -_-



This explains a lot. I have the hardest time feeling interdependent with the world around me.


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## Percorso di Fuoco. (May 5, 2013)

Nonsense said:


> Hmm, I think shame is a pretty good word for that, to be honest. Someone who feels like their existence has to be justified sounds like someone who feels a lot of shame at their core.
> 
> But maybe image-cores have some thoughts on this matter?


I just posted here recently, but after some research I am fairly certain that I am an image type. For me, I have to admit I constantly find myself asking the question "Who am I?". Or maybe it isn't that I'm asking that question, but that when I ask it I don't have a solid answer. I can't really say Who I am. It is quite depressing I sometimes I suppose.

I definitely relate to an image type as far as having the low self worth thing. I relate most to a 3 so I will go based off that. The biggest thing that I have had to deal with in my life is feeling like I deserve what I want. I.E. A girl I like or something like that. Even if the girl likes me back and is extraordinarily EXPRESSIVE (couldn't think of a better word) about it, the idea that I might do something to mess it up or ruin it kills me. The idea of not being good enough, of not being worth it. It is a painful feeling indeed.


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## Percorso di Fuoco. (May 5, 2013)

Julia Bell said:


> I feel like each Heart type has a different place where they hang their identity (or what they see as what makes them _them). _Type Threes like hanging their identity on how "desirable" they appear to be. Because they hang their identities on these various things, they have a hard time occasionally seeing past their image. Sometimes I think (especially for type Three) they tend to see the image as their identity. And when other people around them are not impressed by the image, or the image fails in some way, they feel shame.
> 
> But I don't know if shame is the perfect word. It's almost like Image types go through life attempting to justify their existence, to justify their worth. When they fail to reach The Standard, it is exceedingly painful. Now they feel worthless, unjustified.


Oh my God! This, this, and this! I remember one time I was telling my friends about how I was talking to new people and how cool they thought I was. Some thinker, judger type said, "Yeah. Keep telling yourself that." I think it was a combination of the way he said it and my insecurities that made it sting so bad. He said it with such cold rationality, such complete faith; like what he was saying was ABSOLUTE FACT. Even typing this now I can still feel asome of that pain. Those words cut right into my soul. It is a strange thing to be born with no inherit sense of internal worth and value. And all it takes is one person to puncture the very fiber of my being. The very essence of who I am (or who I thought I was apparently) is attacked and it creates an emotion in me that I cannot describe with words. The closest I can come is to say that my very existence is being questioned.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

Percorso di Fuoco. said:


> I remember one time I was telling my friends about how I was talking to new people and how cool they thought I was. Some thinker, judger type said, "Yeah. Keep telling yourself that."


he sounds delightful :dry:


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## Percorso di Fuoco. (May 5, 2013)

Tater Tot said:


> he sounds delightful :dry:


RAWR it makes me so mad just thinking about it. One of my other friends is like, "that's just who he is.". **** that! No excuse to act that way. But, I can't get too upset about this, I'm trying to learn to control my emotions and I just have to learn to...forgive.


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## Tater Tot (May 28, 2012)

Percorso di Fuoco. said:


> RAWR it makes me so mad just thinking about it. One of my other friends is like, "that's just who he is.". **** that! No excuse to act that way. But, I can't get too upset about this, I'm trying to learn to control my emotions and I just have to learn to...forgive.


That whole thing just sounds so snide and cocky :laughing: That's the kind of thing that would enrage me as well. Like, skank I'm awesome and if you don't see that then go home


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## cudibloop (Oct 11, 2012)

I sort of look at myself as a "brand", people are gonna look at me everyday so it's important to me that I present my best self. If I do something shameful or embarrassing, people will see me as a shameful or embarrassing person.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Julia Bell, the word you may be looking for is _worthlessness_. Image types all desire to feel worthy and appreciated in some way. They seek self-validation. Now, granted, my understanding of the image triad mostly comes from my wing (since I have changed my fixes around, I think type 4 is more correctly typed as my last fix), but the way I experience it through my wing is that there is a desire to be seen for my innate worth. 

I do wish to make the fine distinction here between the type 5's need to be seen as useful and competent and type 4's need to be seen as unique and authentic. While one could certainly argue the similarity of wanting to be seen for your innate worth as also being seen as useful; I would say not quite so. The 5 seeks appreciation of their knowledge and understanding of things, that they can manage and do things on their own. 4s seek appreciation for who they are, and this applies to all image types to a degree I think, just like all head types appreciate that their thinking is validated (not entirely sure how this applies to 7s, though). 

All image types desire to be seen for who they are in some way or another, just that they feel this worth is too deficit to be valued by others. So 2s try to please others, 3s try to project an image of someone they think will be more liked than their natural selves and 4s focus on their differences/deficiencies and let those define who they are. By focusing on these qualities the image types cope with their lack of worhtlessness in various ways. 2s project their own needs on other people, 3s pretend their own needs don't exist and 4s revel in their sense of worthlessness. 

Anyway, I could be wrong about this as I'm trying to update my own understanding, too.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Hmmm.

Type 7 is most out of touch with the heart triad, followed by 8, though 8 has a line to 2; so I'd argue that 5 might be equally out of touch with it. Though 5 is right beside the heart triad, it has no line to it.
7 just has a line to a gut type and another mind type. @Swordsman of Mana - as a 7, you know what it feels like to have no direct connection to the heart triad which is why you started this thread.

So let's shift that perspective..

As for understanding the heart triad:
4 has a line to a gut type and a heart type, and no line to mind, but they're right next to the mind triad. 2 has a line to a heart type and a gut type and is not next to the mind triad. Would that mean 2 is most out of touch with mind?

(This is interesting: I just realized every type outside the gut triad has a line to a gut-type.) 
Anyway I'm not implying 2s can't use their mind - I know brilliant 2s, so please do not mistake me!  I just think it's an interesting way to think about them, realizing what *they* are far away from. I am sure you've already thought of this but just putting it out there.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's different. liking attention is more of a 7 thing. in fact, in a lot of ways, 7 is kind of a pseudo-heart type
> - narcissistic self-absorbed tendencies rather than real emotion
> - a desire for attention, but merely for the mental stimulation and desire to "get a rise out of people"
> - enjoying the thrill of drama, but not really actually feeling anything. for example, when I was really unhealthy in my high school years, I made a scene a few times when someone made fun of me, only to realize later, I didn't actually care. I was simply bored and wanted to stir something up for attention and entertainment. in fact, part of it might have even been an attempt to make myself feel something but, that didn't end up working in the end.
> ...


hmm, a lot of that sounds like an ENFj/EIE behavior if anything
there is an ENFj 3w4 guy I've met a couple of years ago who behaves in exactly the same manner despite being smack in the middle of the image/heart triad in enneagram


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

cyamitide said:


> hmm, a lot of that sounds like an ENFj/EIE behavior if anything
> there is an ENFj 3w4 guy I've met a couple of years ago who behaves in exactly the same manner despite being smack in the middle of the image/heart triad in enneagram


then that 3w4 has a strong 7 fix. just out of curiosity, what makes this individual 3w4 as opposed to 7?

as for the EIE, you're probably right


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

I like this thread because I'm having problems finding my image type.

My take on the heart triad stems from various amounts of data I gathered from a few articles I read. The one that made the most sense was Which direction the each type expends energy. Enn 2 expends energy externally because of that their self image is comprised completely outside of themselves. An enneagram 2 (at least to them) is whatever everyone thinks they are. If the two helps people and people think that the two is a good person, then they think they are good. If someone thinks the 2 is bad then they think they are bad. Very simple really. To some length I feel that the 2 dynamic is much closer to an id type than 3 is because 2 energy is much more extroverted and focus on the outiside like 7 or 8.

Enneagram 3 energy is focused outside and inside, because of that the enneagram 3 self image is inside and out making the enn 3 the "Human beings or doings" of society. Because of this an enneagram 3 can be whatever they think they are. Typically its of a positive nature and its usually seen as whatever provides the most worth to others, but I don't set this in stone. An enneagram 3 is whatever they think will help them reach their goals. This focus on absolute success makes the enneagram 3 very simple, not in a sense of being unintelligent, but in a sense of just how pliable an enneagram 3 can be. The Nike slogan "Just do it" was definitely made with 3's in mind. 

Enneagram 4's are the hardest to pin down and the general descriptions don't do them justice. Enn 4 energy is focused on the inside and the enneagram 4 self-image is completely internal. Enneagram 4s define themselves based on how they feel and because of this depth of feeling 4's can be prone to depression. However this isn't always the case. The one thing I've noticed with many 4s on the forum is that they are the least likely of ALL types to compare themselves to any description, and they show a large tendency to question someone's assertion of their type with a question pertaining mostly to a sort of subjective logic, almost as if they are saying "My muse is red today, but yesterday is was blue, 3 days ago it was green" and I think the reason for this is because the enneagram 4 grows as a person on the inside. Yes they grow through their interactions with others like any other enneatype, but more than most they have a complexity that is hard to pin down. 

In Conclusion

2's self image is made by other people
3's self image is made up of whatever grants them success in their endeavours
4's self image is made by their emotions.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@The Wanderering ______
Enneagram 2 is about as opposite as you can get from 7 or 8.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @The Wanderering ______
> Enneagram 2 is about as opposite as you can get from 7 or 8.


As a curious sidenote though, 2 is the backside of 7, like 1 is for 5 or 4 is for 8, so I wouldn't say not that different. 2 is also described the most id-like out of the superego types.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_The Wanderering _______
> Enneagram 2 is about as opposite as you can get from 7 or 8.


Not exactly... An So 7 can have some similarities to 2. Likewise on the surface you could mistake an enneagram 2 for a 7 do to the fact that both can be very naturally exuberant (for different reasons).

An Unhealthy enneagram 2 can resemble an 8 because they disintegrate to 8.

Yeah. Sorry that all sounds like Robotic shit you've probably read through once or twice, but I don't know to much about 2's from experience so I mostly mouthing off whatever information I already know. Which is pretty general because 2's don't interest me.


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## The Wanderering ______ (Jul 17, 2012)

Midnight Runner said:


> Oh, sorry. I completely missed your post. A few popped up while I was writing the above, haha. Going into inter-type relations would be going pretty far. I feel like the basics for each type should be gone over first. I may very well end up doing a series of articles over the summer if I have the time. I feel like the Enneagram is a fantastic resource, but there are a lot of misunderstandings and misinformation. I think this is propagated by Riso and Hudson, mainly, but also by many online sources; I find their work to be oversimplified, highly generalized, and almost entirely focused on surface traits rather than the core motivations of each type. I also think this is where the tritype came in: because individual types don't have adequate explanations, they don't feel like enough on their own, so people have to make it more complex than it really needs to be.
> 
> But this is a subject for another time, I feel. I also want to finish reading the books I have before I start working on that particular project. I still need to finish the Positive Enneagram, the Enneagram of Society, and Self-Analysis for the Seeker.


No problem. Go ahead with your bad self.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> thank you for sharing, but I was looking for something a few layers deeper. it's the fundamental need for emotional/social support/validation that I just don't get.


As kids, threes like Tiger Woods basically were puppets for a parents vicarious, and usually failed, ambitions. The four inhabits the "lost child" role in family systems theory. The four wants a rescuer; they feel alienated by their family or culture. All of the heart types try to supplant loss of connection to their heart center with an image, which is usually phony and increasingly unsatisfying. The image is used in place of _actual sensitivity _to provide these types value. The three most clearly shows this deficiency at the heart center; threes have an excessively grandiose outer image to compensate for inner emptiness.


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