# entjs scare me.



## Rachelinpa

entjs are scary to me. i never have anything to say to them, and i think they find me annoying and childish. i wonder if entjs ever like enfps or if they always hate me... or hate the fact that i wonder if they hate me...???

it's a shame because i think i would like them, but you guys are are so super serious... (or am i misreading...) that i can't break through...


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## ENTJam

Maybe you're just trying to make a conversation at the wrong time?

I myself try to be friendly and try to keep up with conversations, as long as I'm in the mood.

Are ENFPs much different from ENFJs? Because I love ENFJs...


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## Einstein

I know an ENFP and ENTJ that are best friends. There are super serious, but you CAN break through; they don't hate you. Maybe you could try to find a way to interact with them other than having conversations with them?


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## MNiS

Rachelinpa said:


> entjs are scary to me. i never have anything to say to them, and i think they find me annoying and childish. i wonder if entjs ever like enfps or if they always hate me... or hate the fact that i wonder if they hate me...???
> 
> it's a shame because i think i would like them, but you guys are are so super serious... (or am i misreading...) that i can't break through...


Unless you're acting needlessly childish or immature I doubt an ENTJ would think you're annoying and childish as I find that most ENFP are pretty awesome. If you think an ENTJ is too serious they're probably really busy at the moment and it's best not to disturb them. It's easier to have a conversation with someone when you're able to put your feet up and relax while chatting. 

If a particular ENTJ is being super serious to you all the time, there's probably an underlying reason for it and it may or may not be because of you.


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## Thomas60

Who knows, but I love teasing people that find me intimidating


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## Vanitas

Just don't take it personally. That's including the tendency that we don't take/ treat you personally.


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## Debo37

ENFPs and ENTJs can get along really well if they understand their differences and the unique ways they balance one another. ENFPs may live in the clouds, but ENTJs can understand what's going on in those clouds. Just earn the ENTJ's respect, and you very well may bring your clouds down to the surface of reality.

Also, ENFPs are the best people to peer pressure. Watching their internal struggle when you tell them to act on the crazy idea they just had is endlessly entertaining.


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## AbioticPrime

Lol, I find the over-analysis and unnecessary paranoia/anxiety pretty cute.

Though when it's time for business, it's not cute anymore.

Perhaps that simplifies it?


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## happygolucky30

I am an ENFP , my recent ex-boyfriend was a ENTJ . He scored 90 some percent T , while I scored 80 some percent for F. This was the biggest challenge because if he got angry with me he could totally shut everything down. His feelings seemed to be gone in a matter of minutes thats what really bothered and scared me. If I had done something that he would find annoying like forgetting to shut off the hallway light a few times in a row, he would just completly stop talking to me. Anyways he was logical about things and I was emotional for me it was very hard to deal. He had a lot of positive qualities as well. I am not saying all ENTJ's are the same or act the same in situations. I am just saying he could become cold and distant with no problems. Move on very very quickly , If something isnt serving him well and does not make practical sense he can easily just walk away. Which I can admire a little it would be nice sometimes to make decisions soley based on logic instead of heart. But never the less it scared me to be with him because I would wonder at any moment would he leave or tell me its not working.


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## Boxter9

My ENTJ brother has an ENFP friend. She makes fun of his hair ._. Deservedly. Actually she has a ginormous crush on him. Her dad is NT and our mom is ENFP so I guess Freud is having a cakewalk, mm?

At its worst, the ENTJ-ENFP relationship would involve the ENTJ perceiving the ENFP as flaky, immature, and unintelligent, and the ENFP perceiving the ENTJ as an asshole who takes him- or herself waaayyy too seriously. At its best, both parties would have a hell of a time... the ENTJ dominant function is the ENFP tertiary, and the ENFP auxiliary is the ENTJ inferior, so there's a certain balance.


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## TropDeVivre

I had a really intense, unreal friendship with an ENTJ guy. It was intoxicating to earn his respect, share intellectual (read: N) pursuits. Half of it was wow, you're so smart, creative, witty and half of it was wtf are you. I hated how critical he was of everyone who saw things differently from him, and I hated how much I wanted him in my life and how much I didn't want to lose his respect. I also couldn't handle his criticisms of me, even though I now understand that he was just trying to help in his own ENTJ way. He couldn't understand my need for acceptance, and the process I had to go through to get where I needed to be. Now that I understand it in MBTI terms, it's all really clear. I wish I hadn't cut off ties :-(


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## Delilah

TropDeVivre said:


> I had a really intense, unreal friendship with an ENTJ guy. It was intoxicating to earn his respect, share intellectual (read: N) pursuits. Half of it was wow, you're so smart, creative, witty and half of it was wtf are you. I hated how critical he was of everyone who saw things differently from him, and I hated how much I wanted him in my life and how much I didn't want to lose his respect. I also couldn't handle his criticisms of me, even though I now understand that he was just trying to help in his own ENTJ way. He couldn't understand my need for acceptance, and the process I had to go through to get where I needed to be. Now that I understand it in MBTI terms, it's all really clear. I wish I hadn't cut off ties :-(


Try to reengage.


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## Tea Path

http://personalitycafe.com/entj-forum-executives/141343-visually-reading-entj-teni.html

We are scary, I'm finding. I have a tough time with ENFPs. The ones I know are flighty and judgemental of my judgementalness. It makes me feel like I can't be myself without worrying about what little ant I'll crush every time I walk.

They hold onto dolls and display them in their home. weird. One is petulant, whiny, and indirect when she wants someone to do something. She'll argue one point, feel bad, then argue the other, just as vociferously. I don't understand that inconsistency and I get impatient. 

I also don't like circuitous talking. It's dead boring. I don't want all that detail. Sum up first, then go to detail. I really like knowing where I'm heading off because, I'm going to get distracted by something more interesting. 

Yeah, you may be getting our we're annoyed vibe. I've found that my annoyed vibe is interpreted very severely. oops.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

^Some YT MBTI videos say you guys don't move your necks L0L FOREVER


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## Elistra

It's rare that I actually hate anyone. Granted, I can't speak for all ENTJs, but here would be 25 tips for me personally. I'd not admit some of these outside of the relative anonymity of an internet forum, but they're all true.

1) Yes, I'm opinionated as hell. If you want someone to smile and nod at everything like a puppy dog in the back window of the car, you came to the wrong place. 

2) In spite of #1, I've learned over the years that most people (not just ENFP's) don't take well to harsh criticism. So, I try my best to refrain from same unless my other attempts to address the problem have failed. Then, admittedly, my temper will sometimes flare, and I'll end up saying some amazingly nasty things. Afterwards, I might feel bad for the damage I've caused (and inwardly curse myself for having lost control like that), but I don't regret what I've said per se. After all, nasty or not... it was still true. If they didn't want it to come to that, maybe they should have taken care of the problem the first few times I brought it up, when I was being kindly and patient.

3) Yes, I'm very "intense" in general. If you can't take the heat, then get the hell out of the blast furnace, because that's not going to change. And as an aside, do people have any idea how unutterably *boring* non "intense" people are? I mean, good god... show some spark! Give a damn about something! Are you even alive? Ugh!

4) The closer something lies to my heart, emotionally speaking, the harder a time I have finding the words to communicate it to others and the longer the process takes. It's a bit easier over emails and on messageboards than it is face to face, because that way I can take the time to fully process it and get the phrasing just right. In person though, it can be horrible. On the day I got married, I turned to my husband and said, "If I absolutely have to turn into an old f*ck, I'd *far* rather turn into one with you than with anyone else. We can be old f*cks together!" and then smiled. Yes, I'm serious... this is what I said, to someone I'd take a bullet for. (Fortunately I married an INTP who doesn't seem to mind my deficit in this regard, lol.) 

5) You might not agree with my priorities or values, but I do have them. Don't try to turn me into someone else, because you will only frustrate us both.

6) I don't believe I'm *that* intimidating or scary... although many, many people have told me otherwise! Yes, I can deliberately "ham it up" if it serves my purposes at the time, but I can't seem to turn "it" off, whatever "it" is. 

7) Call me cold, evil, inhuman, or anything like that and I'll thank you, as if you just gave me a compliment. (And if I'm in a really good mood and not busy at that moment, I might even ham a bit for you, as per #6.)

8) I love toilet humor, just in general. Always have. If you know any good toilet jokes, then by all means, share.

9) Lazy people piss me off.

10) Irresponsible people piss me off.

11) People who just can't seem to be on time piss me off.

12) People who said they'd do something but then flake out piss me off.

13) People who flake but don't give an acceptable reason/excuse for having done so piss me off even more. Btw, you are allowed two (2) dead grandmothers per year. Yes, I keep track.

13) Slow people piss me off. Either move faster or get out of the way.

14) People who are cruel to animals/children/people who are weaker than themselves because they get some sort of a twisted, sadistic thrill from it really, *really* piss me off.

15) Say what you mean and mean what you say. 

16) Don't attempt to buy me off with gifts, etc. Frankly, it comes across as an insincere attempt to manipulate me, and I don't like it. And if you're unsure as to whether it would come off that way... well, "when in doubt, leave it out" doesn't just apply to writing. 

17) If I tell you something in confidence and find out later that you told others, I'll never fully trust you again. 

18) If you don't like me being overbearing, here's a bit of advice for you. Don't act like a three year-old, and I won't treat you like one. 

19) I talk a fair bit, and greatly enjoy intellectually stimulating conversation when I'm not too busy to engage in it. So should you, if we're going to get along.

20) If I try to talk about my feelings, listen. Yes, I know it might be somewhat awkward, but I really can't help it. (See #4.) 

21) I have learned that people need reassurance/positive feedback at times, and if I give a damn about you, I will try my absolute best to provide it when you seem to be needing it.

22) If you are close to me emotionally, understand I might need reassurance from you as well, every once in awhile. (Surprise!) I hate admitting this, but believe it or not, there are moments when I am overwrought, and when I feel insecure, self-doubting, and/or indecisive. (I do my absolute damnedest to hide it from general view, but believe me, it occasionally happens.) If I do allow you to see this and you blow me off, I will be deeply hurt. If you think I judge others harshly, you have no idea how harshly I judge myself... I am frankly ashamed of feeling this way, and for someone I respect to see it and recoil as well... ugh. It's not pleasant. :/

23) If I respect you and value your opinion, I will dislike it if you make nasty jokes at my expense. (If I don't give a damn about you on a personal level, then you can say whatever you want and I won't care.)

24) If I respect you and value your opinion, I will do my best to refrain from making nasty jokes at your expense, as well. (This is only fair, after all. See #23.)

25) If you turn a conversation into an argument and I turn around and make you look like a fool in response, then frankly, you deserved it.


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## Elistra

OMG WTF BRO said:


> ^Some YT MBTI videos say you guys don't move your necks L0L FOREVER


I do move it on occasion, but it often pops and seems slightly stiff when I do, so I assume I must not move it that often... lol. 

It might be part of the "ENTJ posture" thing. According to the Youtube videos on the subject, ENTJs tend to sit very upright in chairs as well, rather than slouching. For me at least, that's definitely true. The most parsimonious explanation would be that the "ENTJ posture" involves the whole spinal column, including the neck.


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## cheburashka

oooh don't worry dear! not all entjs are serious and scary. a lot of good friends i have are entjs and they are always smiling and happy and joking around. i'm an infp, so that's not too different from enfp, so just know that it is possible to be friends with entjs and just that score does not make any one person a completely terrifying individual. just an individual like everybody else!


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## neayic

Rachelinpa said:


> entjs are scary to me. i never have anything to say to them, and i think they find me annoying and childish. i wonder if entjs ever like enfps or if they always hate me... or hate the fact that i wonder if they hate me...???
> 
> it's a shame because i think i would like them, but you guys are are so super serious... (or am i misreading...) that i can't break through...


I highly doubt you seriously feel every ENTJ hates you.

But let's toy with that idea for a moment. Every ENTJ hates you right? Why?

-You aren't direct or don't get to the point
-You have too much Fe, like way too much
-You are constantly asking how the ENTJ is feeling (like does that even matter?)
-You flip-flop on decisions

In all honesty I don't hate anyone, and no one reasonable human being is going to HATE you for doing those things... but I do get vehemently annoyed and I have a hard time hiding that fact, primarily because I see no reason to do so.

Example: You call me and YOU say "Hello?" That literally gets under my skin right off the bat. You called me, so get to the point, what do you want? Start talking.


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## Elistra

essiechan said:


> oooh don't worry dear! not all entjs are serious and scary. a lot of good friends i have are entjs and they are always smiling and happy and joking around. i'm an infp, so that's not too different from enfp, so just know that it is possible to be friends with entjs and just that score does not make any one person a completely terrifying individual. just an individual like everybody else!


See, look at this. Essiechan is so wonderfully reassuring, and I bet it took her all of thirty seconds to formulate the words, too. 

I try like hell, but I ... just can't, not like that. Even when the sentiment exists, it often comes out somewhat cold, or stilted. And frankly, it's irritating as hell. I don't like being faced with my limitations, just in general. (I prefer to believe I don't have any... typical, I'm sure. Lol.)

I can do rhetoric fairly well, if I'm in the right mood for it and have enough time to make the words come properly. (My husband jokingly calls this "AoE persuasion".) That's not difficult... it's the mushy stuff that is the hard part.


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## cosmicgeekette

Boo!


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## narwhalcupcake

Well, once you get down in there, they can actually be kinda sweet. It can take a while (depending on how healthy they are)! But, they've got a little something in there... I have a secret- their weakness is Fi (shhhhh) :wink:


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## Lien

By what I read of ENTJs I really don't like what I see. That's my opinion. I know a girl who is ENTJ and she's really critical and dismissive of anything I say.


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## Thomas60

Lien said:


> By what I read of ENTJs I really don't like what I see. That's my opinion. I know a girl who is ENTJ and she's really critical and dismissive of anything I say.


Perhaps we're just misunderstood? :happy: trololol


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## Lien

Thomas60 said:


> Perhaps we're just misunderstood? :happy: trololol


I don't think so.


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## Tea Path

Lien said:


> I don't think so.


must poke-so, could this be interpreted as dismissive?

:-O

More seriously, sorry bout that. I myself like to hear people out, but I found that I need an intro statement of where we are going to end up so that I know to pay attention: IE-tell me about the trip to the store, getting a book online, who you met, all to really tell me about this super cool cannon you were going to build. I wouldn't know I had to listen to the details till the end. Now if you start with the cannon, I'm all perked ears 

However, this may not do much for aforementioned ENTJ in your life.


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## Lien

Tea Path said:


> must poke-so, could this be interpreted as dismissive?
> 
> :-O
> 
> More seriously, sorry bout that. I myself like to hear people out, but I found that I need an intro statement of where we are going to end up so that I know to pay attention: IE-tell me about the trip to the store, getting a book online, who you met, all to really tell me about this super cool cannon you were going to build. I wouldn't know I had to listen to the details till the end. Now if you start with the cannon, I'm all perked ears
> 
> However, this may not do much for aforementioned ENTJ in your life.


There is no genuine interest in hearing the person speak unless it's something you're interested in. She's also more ambiverted I believe.


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## Tea Path

Lien said:


> There is no genuine interest in hearing the person speak unless it's something you're interested in. .


True.


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## Chaerephon

When approaching an ENTJ an emotional appeal isn't always the best, we just don't tend to take them seriously.


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## badgers

ESTJs scare me more.


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## narwhalcupcake

Thomas60 said:


> Perhaps we're just misunderstood? :happy: t


I hope so! :wink:


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## devoid

ENTJ's scare everyone; it's natural. They are intense, ruthless and emotionally distant people by nature. But you shouldn't let your fear get in the way of your interactions with them. Just because someone is intimidating doesn't mean they're bad or mean.


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## Lien

narwhalcupcake said:


> I hope so! :wink:


I find INFPs adorable. I also find the fact that this is about ENTJs and the girl I was talking about who is an ENTJ likes narwhals, is ironic.


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## narwhalcupcake

Lien said:


> I find INFPs adorable. I also find the fact that this is about ENTJs and the girl I was talking about who is an ENTJ likes narwhals, is ironic.


 Yay! You like INFPs! I like INTPs... :blushed: Go narwhals! They are actually my favorite, they're the unicorns of the sea. I mean, how awesome is that?! *cue cheesy wink accompanied with a double thumbs up*


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## Scelerat

devoid said:


> ENTJ's scare everyone; it's natural. They are intense, ruthless and emotionally distant people by nature. But you shouldn't let your fear get in the way of your interactions with them. Just because someone is intimidating doesn't mean they're bad or mean.


Just to point out, (at least in my case) the ruthlessness/opportunistic behavior is to a degree done unconsciously. It's one of those, "I just happened to push you under the bus, it wasn't anything personal, you were just in my way" type of things.


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## devoid

Scelerat said:


> Just to point out, (at least in my case) the ruthlessness/opportunistic behavior is to a degree done unconsciously. It's one of those, "I just happened to push you under the bus, it wasn't anything personal, you were just in my way" type of things.


In what way is this supposed to be reassuring? xD


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## Scelerat

devoid said:


> In what way is this supposed to be reassuring? xD


It's not, it's supposed to clarify.


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## devoid

Scelerat said:


> It's not, it's supposed to clarify.


Lol, I dated an ENTJ for almost two years. Trust me, the whole "This is just how I am" argument gets you no favor from me.


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## Scelerat

devoid said:


> Lol, I dated an ENTJ for almost two years. Trust me, the whole "This is just how I am" argument gets you no favor from me.


I don't want your favor either, I just wanted to make it clear that while ruthless and opportunistic behavior from ENTJs may be calculated, it also may not be.


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## Pride49

Oh my! This group of people is so scawy! Whatever. Anywho. Let's discuss thermal nuclear energy. Let's get an ISTJ too. So we can have their depressing 'into reality' personality with us while we theorize.


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## Elistra

Lien said:


> By what I read of ENTJs I really don't like what I see. That's my opinion. I know a girl who is ENTJ and she's really critical and dismissive of anything I say.


We can steamroll at times, yes. 

Scenario #1:
ENTJ is busy/getting private time. 
INTP is introspecting.
Result 1 - Peace.

Scenario #2:
ENTJ is busy/getting private time.
INTP has gone pedagogue.
Result 2a - ENTJ barely pays attention, INTP feels dismissed.
Result 2b - Frustrated ENTJ lashes out, INTP gets pissed. Argument ensues.
Result 2c - ENTJ ignores INTP until INTP goes away. INTP sulks.
Result 2d - ENTJ barely pays attention, INTP goes and does something else, ENTJ seeks out INTP half an hour later, wanting to talk.

Scenario #3:
ENTJ wants to talk (general).
INTP is introspecting.
Result 3a: INTP barely pays attention, ENTJ feels dismissed and is frustrated.
Result 3b: INTP gets frustrated and retreats even further, ENTJ becomes sarcastic. INTP leaves room.
Result 3c: INTP gets frustrated and retreats even further, ENTJ becomes sarcastic. Argument ensues.
Result 3d: ENTJ manages to guess at the topic INTP is thinking about, pedagogy ensues from INTP.
Result 3e - INTP barely pays attention, ENTJ goes and does something else, INTP seeks out ENTJ half an hour later, wanting to talk.

Scenario #4:
ENTJ wants to talk (specific theoretical topic)
INTP <doesn't matter the mode, provided INTP is not angry>
Result 4a: INTP enthusiastically responds, brainstorming ensues between ENTJ and INTP.
Result 4b: INTP goes pedagogue, ENTJ gets frustrated.

:wink:


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## Elistra

devoid said:


> ENTJ's scare everyone; it's natural. They are intense, ruthless and emotionally distant people by nature. But you shouldn't let your fear get in the way of your interactions with them. Just because someone is intimidating doesn't mean they're bad or mean.


Ruthless. Hrm. I'll admit I'm like that when I have to be, given the circumstances, or when there's a complete moron who desperately deserves it, but other than that? 

How exactly does it look, from the outside of me? I was curious... but it is hard to evaluate this yourself at times.

Me: Honestly, do you think I tend to be ruthless?
Husband, without pausing: You resort to it fairly quickly, yes.

:dry:


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## Chaerephon

I'm usually pretty laid-back and seem to have an unusually high-resistance to anger, but no one is perfect. Because of wrestling in high school I have really no fear of people. I'm not the biggest person, but I made football players way bigger and tougher (they thought) than me leave me alone, although only once through actually wrestling lol. I've been told I'm scary when I actually get mad mostly because it doesn't happen often. Although some people confuse my aggressive nature with anger. I definitely feel like I am one of those people with strong instincts. If there was a group of people harassing me, I would identify the leader and back him into a corner, pull his shirt over his head, and push his head down while I verbally abuse him to the core... (err, it only happened once.) 

Point being, I'm an ENTJ, I used to be a huge dick. Luckily, I'm not anymore, but the intensity is still there. It is still hard to not come off like a jerk sometimes.

Edit: After re-reading this I feel like it sounds like I am trying to sound tough on the internet. I don't want anyone to think I am a fighter, some tough guy, or even be afraid of me, I'm not scary. lol


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## Elistra

To me, intensity doesn't make people dicks. Rather, it makes them not boring as all hell.


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## devoid

Elistra said:


> Ruthless. Hrm. I'll admit I'm like that when I have to be, given the circumstances, or when there's a complete moron who desperately deserves it, but other than that?
> 
> How exactly does it look, from the outside of me? I was curious... but it is hard to evaluate this yourself at times.
> 
> Me: Honestly, do you think I tend to be ruthless?
> Husband, without pausing: You resort to it fairly quickly, yes.
> 
> :dry:


On a scale of bunny rabbit to ruthless, most people are generally laid-back, and occasionally resort to being obnoxiously opinionated. ENTJ's are generally dominating, and occasionally resort to being ruthless. Does that make sense?

Like, here's all of us normal people going about our confused and rather boring lives. Then an ENTJ comes up and it's like, "WOAH, where the hell did you pull that commanding attitude from?"


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## Elistra

devoid said:


> On a scale of bunny rabbit to ruthless, most people are generally laid-back, and occasionally resort to being obnoxiously opinionated. ENTJ's are generally dominating, and occasionally resort to being ruthless. Does that make sense?
> 
> Like, here's all of us normal people going about our confused and rather boring lives. Then an ENTJ comes up and it's like, "WOAH, where the hell did you pull that commanding attitude from?"


... do you know how frustrating it is, seriously? Do you have any idea? 

This is hard to put into English, but I'll try.

What most folks describe as "laid back people" ... they come off to me as dead-eyed, soulless, apathetic, shuffling, humanoid.... things. Hell, people think ENTJs are off-putting? To me, the majority of people seem like the walking dead... the only difference is that they shuffle a bit faster, don't try to bite (usually), and occasionally talk. Imagine being in a world where only a minority of the humanoids are actually _there_, are actually _real_, are active, alert, and engaged, are actually part of the _foreground, _rather than being shuffling, indifferent, apathetic things.

Imagine a world like that.

I might not be the best in the world at relating to the Shuffling Things, but I do the best I can. I can "dial it back" as far as I can, and still come off as dominating/overbearing/intimidating, because in comparison to the Shuffling Things... well... if you have any spark _at all, _you blaze forth like a magnesium flare in the middle of a blackout. 

And you are an extravert, to boot... a sentient magnesium flare that wants to go up to people and interact with them. A LOT. But the _light_, and the _heat_... you blind them, and you sometimes burn them badly, even though you didn't mean to. Well, unless they've tried to put your light _out_, and then they fucking deserve to get torched, imo. I would rather put a bullet in my brain than become a Shuffling Thing.

When I was much younger, I used to occasionally scare the living hell out of people, drive them to a frothing rage, and generally do whatever I could think to do, to _purposely_ evoke intense emotion within them. I did that, for two reasons. One, I was curious as to whether or not I'd targeted their weak points correctly. Two... if my targeting was indeed correct, they'd act like _people_ for a little while. Just so I could see something in them that was really and truly _alive_... something I could easily relate to.

But nothing I did produced permanent results. I spent many years working on this, and learned more about human psychology than most people ever bother to find out in the bargain... hell, I ended up with a degree in it, even. Is it genetic? Were they born this way? Were they made this way? Something in utero? Is it society? Something in our society that turns them into Shuffling Things? Are they like that in other societies? Were people always this way? If you go back in history, were most of them Shuffling Things, too?

I am 36 years old. I have studied biology, and psychology, and sociology, and history, and ... damn it, I still don't have a solution. Yes, I am pragmatic about many things... but in other ways, I'm very much an idealist, unfortunately. :frustrating:


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## devoid

Elistra said:


> ... do you know how frustrating it is, seriously? Do you have any idea?
> 
> This is hard to put into English, but I'll try.
> 
> What most folks describe as "laid back people" ... they come off to me as dead-eyed, soulless, apathetic, shuffling, humanoid.... things. Hell, people think ENTJs are off-putting? To me, the majority of people seem like the walking dead... the only difference is that they shuffle a bit faster, don't try to bite (usually), and occasionally talk. Imagine being in a world where only a minority of the humanoids are actually _there_, are actually _real_, are active, alert, and engaged, are actually part of the _foreground, _rather than being shuffling, indifferent, apathetic things.
> 
> Imagine a world like that.
> 
> I might not be the best in the world at relating to the Shuffling Things, but I do the best I can. I can "dial it back" as far as I can, and still come off as dominating/overbearing/intimidating, because in comparison to the Shuffling Things... well... if you have any spark _at all, _you blaze forth like a magnesium flare in the middle of a blackout.
> 
> And you are an extravert, to boot... a sentient magnesium flare that wants to go up to people and interact with them. A LOT. And the light, and the heat... you blind them, and you sometimes even hurt them quite badly, even though you don't mean to ... unless they've tried to put your light out, and then they fucking deserve it imo. I would rather put a bullet in my brain than become a Shuffling Thing.
> 
> When I was much younger, I used to occasionally scare the living hell out of people, drive them to a frothing rage, and generally do whatever I could think to do, to _purposely_ evoke intense emotion within them. I did that, for two reasons. One, I was curious as to whether or not I'd targeted their weak points correctly. Two... if my targeting was indeed correct, they'd act like _people_ for a little while. Just so I could see something in them that was really and truly _alive_... something I could easily relate to.
> 
> But nothing I did produced permanent results. I spent many years working on this, and learned more about human psychology than most people ever bother to find out in the bargain... hell, I ended up with a degree in it, even. Is it genetic? Were they born this way? Were they made this way? Something in utero? Is it society? Something in our society that turns them into Shuffling Things? Are they like that in other societies? Were people always this way? If you went back in history, are most of them Shuffling Things, too?
> 
> I am 36 years old. I have studied biology, and psychology, and sociology, and history, and ... damn it, I still don't have a solution. :frustrating:


It's funny, you remind me so much of my ENTJ ex. It was nice to have him as a sort of life coach for a while, always pushing me to do more and learn more. I grew a lot in that time. It's hard to explain, but there are some people who are good at getting things done and some people who are good at doing them. When an ENTJ forces other people to do things, it tends to create order and success. When ENTJ's try to do things all on their own they often end up being way too brutal and not doing the best job, and when people try to do things without an ExTJ present they lose focus and drive. That's why ENTJ's and ENTP's make excellent work colleagues: The ENTJ drives while the ENTP creates elegant solutions.

The truth is... most people are just waiting around for someone like you to come and push them to become something more. Some people turn to a religion, some people get into an unbalanced relationship, and some people just get a job. Most people ask themselves every day, "Why should I bother?" An ENTJ would never even comprehend such a notion, because not trying is far more terrible and disappointing.


----------



## Einstein

Elistra said:


> ... do you know how frustrating it is, seriously? Do you have any idea?
> 
> This is hard to put into English, but I'll try.
> 
> What most folks describe as "laid back people" ... they come off to me as dead-eyed, soulless, apathetic, shuffling, humanoid.... things. Hell, people think ENTJs are off-putting? To me, the majority of people seem like the walking dead... the only difference is that they shuffle a bit faster, don't try to bite (usually), and occasionally talk. Imagine being in a world where only a minority of the humanoids are actually _there_, are actually _real_, are active, alert, and engaged, are actually part of the _foreground, _rather than being shuffling, indifferent, apathetic things.
> 
> Imagine a world like that.
> 
> I might not be the best in the world at relating to the Shuffling Things, but I do the best I can. I can "dial it back" as far as I can, and still come off as dominating/overbearing/intimidating, because in comparison to the Shuffling Things... well... if you have any spark _at all, _you blaze forth like a magnesium flare in the middle of a blackout.
> 
> And you are an extravert, to boot... a sentient magnesium flare that wants to go up to people and interact with them. A LOT. But the _light_, and the _heat_... you blind them, and you sometimes burn them badly, even though you didn't mean to. Well, unless they've tried to put your light _out_, and then they fucking deserve to get torched, imo. I would rather put a bullet in my brain than become a Shuffling Thing.


Yes! I relate so much to this!!


----------



## TriggerHappy923

They scare me too, it's okay. Here here, there there... It's aaall right. You probably have a happy place considering you're an enfp, go there and who gives a damn if they think you're childish, you probably are. Just tell yourself, "You don't know me". Don't small talk or talk about frivolous things if you want a conversation with them. Ask for their opinion about something that matters.


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> We can steamroll at times, yes.
> 
> Scenario #1:
> ENTJ is busy/getting private time.
> INTP is introspecting.
> Result 1 - Peace.
> 
> Scenario #2:
> ENTJ is busy/getting private time.
> INTP has gone pedagogue.
> Result 2a - ENTJ barely pays attention, INTP feels dismissed.
> Result 2b - Frustrated ENTJ lashes out, INTP gets pissed. Argument ensues.
> Result 2c - ENTJ ignores INTP until INTP goes away. INTP sulks.
> Result 2d - ENTJ barely pays attention, INTP goes and does something else, ENTJ seeks out INTP half an hour later, wanting to talk.
> 
> Scenario #3:
> ENTJ wants to talk (general).
> INTP is introspecting.
> Result 3a: INTP barely pays attention, ENTJ feels dismissed and is frustrated.
> Result 3b: INTP gets frustrated and retreats even further, ENTJ becomes sarcastic. INTP leaves room.
> Result 3c: INTP gets frustrated and retreats even further, ENTJ becomes sarcastic. Argument ensues.
> Result 3d: ENTJ manages to guess at the topic INTP is thinking about, pedagogy ensues from INTP.
> Result 3e - INTP barely pays attention, ENTJ goes and does something else, INTP seeks out ENTJ half an hour later, wanting to talk.
> 
> Scenario #4:
> ENTJ wants to talk (specific theoretical topic)
> INTP <doesn't matter the mode, provided INTP is not angry>
> Result 4a: INTP enthusiastically responds, brainstorming ensues between ENTJ and INTP.
> Result 4b: INTP goes pedagogue, ENTJ gets frustrated.
> 
> :wink:


Really. You're drawing out every INTP to be a spaced out ocd factoid robot? Another thing about entjs I don't like. You're too bossy and assuming.


----------



## Elistra

Lien said:


> Really. You're drawing out every INTP to be a spaced out ocd factoid robot? Another thing about entjs I don't like. You're too bossy and assuming.


So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You missed the winking face at the end, assumed I was being 100% serious and not joking even slightly in any of that, and then accused me of assuming things?

Hrm.


----------



## Elistra

TriggerHappy923 said:


> They scare me too, it's okay. Here here, there there... It's aaall right. You probably have a happy place considering you're an enfp, go there and who gives a damn if they think you're childish, you probably are. Just tell yourself, "You don't know me". Don't small talk or talk about frivolous things if you want a conversation with them. Ask for their opinion about something that matters.


In my experience, whenever people say, _"You don't know me." _what they actually mean is, _"You're telling me facts about myself that I don't want to hear, whaa!"_ I've always wondered... do people ever manage to convince themselves, when they use that line? They sure as hell don't convince anyone else, lol. 

Don't be afraid of us, seriously. We eat, sleep, put our pants on one leg at a time, and yes... sometimes when we wipe we get a little on our hand, just like anyone else. :happy:

(And wash your hands, that's nasty.)


----------



## Elistra

devoid said:


> It's funny, you remind me so much of my ENTJ ex. It was nice to have him as a sort of life coach for a while, always pushing me to do more and learn more. I grew a lot in that time. It's hard to explain, but there are some people who are good at getting things done and some people who are good at doing them. When an ENTJ forces other people to do things, it tends to create order and success. When ENTJ's try to do things all on their own they often end up being way too brutal and not doing the best job, and when people try to do things without an ExTJ present they lose focus and drive. That's why ENTJ's and ENTP's make excellent work colleagues: The ENTJ drives while the ENTP creates elegant solutions.
> 
> The truth is... most people are just waiting around for someone like you to come and push them to become something more. Some people turn to a religion, some people get into an unbalanced relationship, and some people just get a job. Most people ask themselves every day, "Why should I bother?" An ENTJ would never even comprehend such a notion, because not trying is far more terrible and disappointing.


Thank you for your kind words. :happy:

Here's how I look at it... if someone tries, they might or might not fail. If they do not even try though, they will _certainly_ fail. There's really no choice there, imo. If you want any chance of success at all, you _have_ to try.

Besides, I'd be bark-at-the-moon mad inside of a month, if I didn't have an outlet for the energy. *shudder*


----------



## userslon

Lol, I only know one enfp girl who works with me. She is so fragile, I feel pity for her. Her and my enfj coworker are good friends. I am not sure why me and enfp don't click. Oh, and my brother is an enfp as well. Maybe as ^ others mentioned, the work environment is for work and I do not like mixing emotions with my work, and that is all she seems to be interested in. Though I am sure, outside of work, we can be friends. But at work, it's a little uncomfortable. Though I don't involve myself, so it's all good.


----------



## TriggerHappy923

Elistra said:


> In my experience, whenever people say, _"You don't know me." _what they actually mean is, _"You're telling me facts about myself that I don't want to hear, whaa!"_ I've always wondered... do people ever manage to convince themselves, when they use that line? They sure as hell don't convince anyone else, lol.
> Don't be afraid of us, seriously. We eat, sleep, put our pants on one leg at a time, and yes... sometimes when we wipe we get a little on our hand, just like anyone else. :happy:
> (And wash your hands, that's nasty.)


Lol it's what I tell my INFP friend as a joke. It's like telling someone to "take a chill pill or whatever makes you happy." So yes, it's a statement that I make in order for my friends to convince themselves to get over it.

Edit: I think it's because I admire the ENTJs for being everything I'm not and being everything I wish I could be. The Te, Se, and even the small Fi is desirable. I see Bill Gates, often mistaken as an ENTJ, some how he is an INTP that's surpassed the lazy and fear of failure brick wall that we face... most INTPs never surpass this brick wall. 
ENTJs probably intimidate me due to this reality... the reality that though we can become competent we are considers the masters of nothing, "The jack of all triads but the master of none". ENTJs are very much capable of being pretty competent and a master of their trade... which isn't ALL ENTJs, but _typically_ ENTJs are very much capable, unlike say the ISTJs.

Sometimes ENTJS create a competitive monster in me. This irrational, emotional, competitive nature is a weakness in my eyes and it must be stomped out. So I can see how others could be a bit scared. I think many people don't realize that they may be scared of themselves, that nature that acts irrational and creates a fool of itself.

The last thing I want to do is give an ENTJ an ego boost. I'm just being honest as to what might be the source of my ENTJ fight-or-flight response when you guys are around.


----------



## narwhalcupcake

NameUser said:


> If there was a group of people harassing me, I would identify the leader and back him into a corner, pull his shirt over his head, and push his head down while I verbally abuse him to the core... (err, *it only happened once*.)


Ahahaha this totally cracked me up XD Oh goodness... my NF harmony senses are tingling.


----------



## War pigs

I don't think ENTJs are as intimidating as they appear, or maybe they are idk lol. I have many ENTJ and INTJ friends, from what I see is that their just confrontational and like to challenge EVERYTHING. However I don't really take them seriously when they say stuff like "I don't have time for your bullshit" I know they mean what they say, but they always find time for my bullshit later on :laughing: and they're really cool once you get to know them.


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> ... do you know how frustrating it is, seriously? Do you have any idea?
> 
> This is hard to put into English, but I'll try.
> 
> What most folks describe as "laid back people" ... they come off to me as dead-eyed, soulless, apathetic, shuffling, humanoid.... things. Hell, people think ENTJs are off-putting? To me, the majority of people seem like the walking dead... the only difference is that they shuffle a bit faster, don't try to bite (usually), and occasionally talk. Imagine being in a world where only a minority of the humanoids are actually _there_, are actually _real_, are active, alert, and engaged, are actually part of the _foreground, _rather than being shuffling, indifferent, apathetic things.
> 
> Imagine a world like that.
> 
> I might not be the best in the world at relating to the Shuffling Things, but I do the best I can. I can "dial it back" as far as I can, and still come off as dominating/overbearing/intimidating, because in comparison to the Shuffling Things... well... if you have any spark _at all, _you blaze forth like a magnesium flare in the middle of a blackout.
> 
> And you are an extravert, to boot... a sentient magnesium flare that wants to go up to people and interact with them. A LOT. But the _light_, and the _heat_... you blind them, and you sometimes burn them badly, even though you didn't mean to. Well, unless they've tried to put your light _out_, and then they fucking deserve to get torched, imo. I would rather put a bullet in my brain than become a Shuffling Thing.


Take what you just said and reverse it. You now have a perspective of someone with a high degree of introversion that sees all the 'non-shuffling things' as harassing nosy people that make conversation and interaction for no reason except annoyance. Perhaps you just interrupted a thought.

You should look at stimulation preference if you haven't already...


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> So, let me see if I understand you correctly. You missed the winking face at the end, assumed I was being 100% serious and not joking even slightly in any of that, and then accused me of assuming things?
> 
> Hrm.


Basically. I wasn't aware 'your type' had a sense of humour. Why would you even waste that much time typing that :/

I don't understand...

I reckoned that you were being about 80% serious.


----------



## Nirel

I wouldn't be scared of a 'Type', Mbti does say a lot about a person but in the end of the day, grouping a whole type together like that, seems like too much of a generalization for me.


----------



## Einstein

TriggerHappy923 said:


> Lol it's what I tell my INFP friend as a joke. It's like telling someone to "take a chill pill or whatever makes you happy." So yes, it's a statement that I make in order for my friends to convince themselves to get over it.
> 
> Edit: I think it's because I admire the ENTJs for being everything I'm not and being everything I wish I could be. The Te, Se, and even the small Fi is desirable. I see Bill Gates, often mistaken as an ENTJ, some how he is an INTP that's surpassed the lazy and fear of failure brick wall that we face... most INTPs never surpass this brick wall.
> ENTJs probably intimidate me due to this reality... the reality that though we can become competent we are considers the masters of nothing, "The jack of all triads but the master of none". ENTJs are very much capable of being pretty competent and a master of their trade... which isn't ALL ENTJs, but _typically_ ENTJs are very much capable, unlike say the ISTJs.
> 
> Sometimes ENTJS create a competitive monster in me. This irrational, emotional, competitive nature is a weakness in my eyes and it must be stomped out. So I can see how others could be a bit scared. I think many people don't realize that they may be scared of themselves, that nature that acts irrational and creates a fool of itself.
> 
> The last thing I want to do is give an ENTJ an ego boost. I'm just being honest as to what might be the source of my ENTJ fight-or-flight response when you guys are around.


Yay another ego boost!


----------



## Elistra

Lien said:


> Take what you just said and reverse it. You now have a perspective of someone with a high degree of introversion that sees all the 'non-shuffling things' as harassing nosy people that make conversation and interaction for no reason except annoyance. Perhaps you just interrupted a thought.
> 
> You should look at stimulation preference if you haven't already...


No, it's not that. There's tons of extraverted shuffling things out there, and I have met introverted non-shufflers as well. It's an intensity in one's life, thoughts, and emotions that seems largely independent of preferred "recharge mode". The only thing extraversion seems to do is make a person's shuffler/non-shuffler status more obvious at first glance than it otherwise would have been.



Lien said:


> Basically. I wasn't aware 'your type' had a sense of humour. Why would you even waste that much time typing that :/
> 
> I don't understand...
> 
> I reckoned that you were being about 80% serious.


Oh bah, some of us joke around almost as much as an ENTP, believe it or not. :happy:

I will admit that there was a grain of truth in what I wrote before, in that INTPs usually have a pedagogue streak when it comes to topics they're interested in. Then again, there's a grain of truth in a lot of jokes, that's partly what makes them funny.


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> No, it's not that. There's tons of extraverted shuffling things out there, and I have met introverted non-shufflers as well. It's an intensity in one's life, thoughts, and emotions that seems largely independent of preferred "recharge mode". The only thing extraversion seems to do is make a person's shuffler/non-shuffler status more obvious at first glance than it otherwise would have been.


Sooooo... what is this suffling thing as a person you are talking about? Like a 'shuffling-thing' is a boring person that does hardly anything besides be a bland pot of burnt oatmeal stuffed inside a human corpse?


----------



## Elistra

Lien said:


> Sooooo... what is this suffling thing as a person you are talking about? Like a 'shuffling-thing' is a boring person that does hardly anything besides be a bland pot of burnt oatmeal stuffed inside a human corpse?


It's like the shuffling things have very little of a sense of self. Their thoughts, their beliefs, their opinions... they don't independently derive any of these, and instead adopt such things wholemeal from other people, or from the culture at large. No, even saying that they "adopt" these things implies a volition they don't seem to have. No. To say programs are _installed_ on them as they would be on a computer, that's a more accurate analogy. This is the ultimate in apathy, it is someone who is literally too fucking lazy to think, or even feel. And to be honest, I don't see them as sentient.


----------



## Scelerat

Lien said:


> Basically. I wasn't aware 'your type' had a sense of humour. Why would you even waste that much time typing that :/
> 
> I don't understand...
> 
> I reckoned that you were being about 80% serious.


I'm roughly, 50% serious, 20% assertive and 30% sarcastic.


----------



## Tao Te Ching

Love ENTJ, great partners, great leaders, sexy ladies. My favorite of the bunch!


----------



## Tao Te Ching

userslon said:


> Lol, I only know one enfp girl who works with me. She is so fragile, I feel pity for her. Her and my enfj coworker are good friends. I am not sure why me and enfp don't click. Oh, and my brother is an enfp as well. Maybe as ^ others mentioned, the work environment is for work and I do not like mixing emotions with my work, and that is all she seems to be interested in. Though I am sure, outside of work, we can be friends. But at work, it's a little uncomfortable. Though I don't involve myself, so it's all good.


Maybe if you meet a special ENFP you'll change your tune. Maybe.



NameUser said:


> I'm usually pretty laid-back and seem to have an unusually high-resistance to anger,


From my experience the only people that can make ENTJ truly angry are the people that they love.

You guys are the best!


----------



## Lien

Scelerat said:


> I'm roughly, 50% serious, 20% assertive and 30% sarcastic.


I wasn't talking about you buster baxster. That's too much seriousness.


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> It's like the shuffling things have very little of a sense of self. Their thoughts, their beliefs, their opinions... they don't independently derive any of these, and instead adopt such things wholemeal from other people, or from the culture at large. No, even saying that they "adopt" these things implies a volition they don't seem to have. No. To say programs are _installed_ on them as they would be on a computer, that's a more accurate analogy. This is the ultimate in apathy, it is someone who is literally too fucking lazy to think, or even feel. And to be honest, I don't see them as sentient.


Do they make ideal cult followers?


----------



## Elistra

Lien said:


> Do they make ideal cult followers?


Hmm. Possibly.


----------



## Lien

Elistra said:


> Hmm. Possibly.


If you edited this post I'd like to hear the pejorative version ^_^


----------



## Elistra

Lien said:


> If you edited this post I'd like to hear the pejorative version ^_^


Suffice it is to say that such people seem to need others to tell them what to think, feel, and believe, and cults are just one potential place they can get their fix.


----------



## Chaerephon

narwhalcupcake said:


> Ahahaha this totally cracked me up XD Oh goodness... my NF harmony senses are tingling.


Lol, always glad to entertain. :kitteh: Btw, I have no idea what NF harmony sense are.



Tao Te Ching said:


> From my experience the only people that can make ENTJ truly angry are the people that they love.
> 
> You guys are the best!


Yeah, we have to care about what you to make us angry usually. Although we can easily become confrontational even though we aren't mad lol.

Also we aren't the best, all types are literally the same.


----------



## Elistra

If we care about you, we can also get very angry at others on your behalf, if we consider them as having wronged you in some way.


----------



## narwhalcupcake

NameUser said:


> Lol, always glad to entertain. :kitteh: Btw, I have no idea what NF harmony sense are.


Haha us NFs want harmony so when we hear or see disharmony we kinda cringe and want to run away  I guess that's what NF harmony senses are...? I don't know! lol XD


----------



## Tea Path

I would say for us it seems fairness > harmony (or in our heads, fairness = harmony)


----------



## Chaerephon

For me harmony is in music.


----------



## Elistra

I would say more that in a craptastic situation, the addition of fairness ==> strife and disharmony as wrongs are set right and assholes get stomped ==> harmony, as the people who were causing the situation to be craptastic in the first place have all either been driven away, or brought to heel and made to behave sensibly.

It's for the greater good in the end, but what happens in the meantime isn't always pretty.


----------



## boblikesoup

Tea Path said:


> I would say for us it seems fairness > harmony (or in our heads, fairness = harmony)


I think this is also an Fi vs Fe issue. ENFP's may run away, but Fe's will make it their business to make fairness.

When typing people I ask them: would it bother you if two people in a disagreement make an unfair resolution that both sides accept? Being bothered = Fi (personal values + Te). Not being bothere = Fe (as long as everybody is ok then how can it not be fair?)


----------



## Hoff

I only have one ENTJ friend online, so I don't have much to go on. I can see how people like her would be intimidating, but she seems pretty easy to get along with, especially if you share the same sense of humor. 

We have a lot in common actually, but she just seems to be ah... better than me at everything. She speaks three languages, knows at least two programming languages, has seen more anime and listened to more music than me, and is really hot. 

Truly a force to be reckoned with and I definitely don't have a crush on her... >_>


----------



## Wellsy

From my perspective, they're like the INTJs in that they're not about to have a fuzzy field day of saying how much they love someone in some poetic sentence but the loyalty and care is certainly there. It's shown through actions more so than words which is understandable since actions I imagine are worth more to XNTJs. So in that regard, I would say it's a better kind of affection if one can take notice, rather than having someone say I love you but their actions don't match their words.
They're a bunch of sweet hearts, except maybe in the workplace...


----------



## Kingpin

you shouldn't be scared of ENTJs
We are basically geeks


----------



## jenteal

Oh I love love love my ENTJ friend! He is amazing we have so much fun together. However when we disagree it gets nasty! lol


----------



## Pride49

Kingpin said:


> you shouldn't be scared of ENTJs
> We are basically geeks


Annoying geeks


----------



## BlondeWriting

My closest friend is a hardcore ENTJ. I think they can initially come across as rather intimidating. Many people are somewhat fearful of my friend, as she comes across as a 'narcissistic control-freak'. As an INTP, I find it easy to shrug off first impressions and social structure, so I suppose that's why I never felt frightened of her. When making friends with an ENTJ, I would suggest that you prove that you can stand your ground, have valid opinions and are intriguing - they're intuitive, so they like to analyse your persona. Earn their respect, and they can be great friends.


----------



## Vic

Sounds like a lot of work, but nothing to be fearful of.


----------



## Pendit76

We are only scary if you let us be. Don't back down.


----------



## Champagne Wishes

A viewpoint from myself, who has scored ENTJ but could possibly be INTJ: I am good friends with an ENFP. The first couple of years I knew her, I gathered that she was possibly a bit intimidated by me. Sometimes she would act startled or scared if she had a differing view from me on a subject and I would debate with her. She would get jumpy and didn't want to make eye contact. She wound up crying a couple of times. I realized after awhile that she was not someone I could do this with, because she was just simply too sensitive. So I talk about other stuff with her, but never even attempt debating anymore. It's kind of frustrating editing myself around someone but she is a good friend so I make the sacrifice.

Besides, I've found that with the majority of females out there, debating a topic just doesn't fly. I have one female friend I feel like I can truly do this around. Don't know what type she is but I'm sure she must be TJ of some sort. We are always jabbing at each other too. I think my ENFP friend was shocked a few weeks ago at a comment I made on one of her photos, but I knew she would love it-- we love to shock each other with the things we say. 

I think every relationship has it's own dynamic and you have to just figure it out. That can be a bit harder for us NT types, because we don't pick up on feelings right away. Regardless of how serious I seem on the outside, I'm very sentimental and am fiercely loyal when it comes to my friends.


----------



## Chaerephon

We are really only scary if you do something that actually gets us angry.

Otherwise we are just pushy encyclopedias.

Although if we scare you, you will probably be scared for two weeks. It is isn't pleasant to be systematically terrorized...


----------



## aphinion

Yeah, apparently I scare a lot of people. Most of the time I'm not actually upset, just thinking. 

I like ENFP's, but they're kind of annoying. At least the ones I know. They're kind of gossipy and spend a lot of their time complaining.


----------



## Kingpin

Pride49 said:


> Annoying geeks


sure


----------



## Habburgers

i like entj's


----------



## Habburgers

Elistra said:


> It's rare that I actually hate anyone. Granted, I can't speak for all ENTJs, but here would be 25 tips for me personally. I'd not admit some of these outside of the relative anonymity of an internet forum, but they're all true.
> 
> 1) Yes, I'm opinionated as hell. If you want someone to smile and nod at everything like a puppy dog in the back window of the car, you came to the wrong place.
> 
> 2) In spite of #1, I've learned over the years that most people (not just ENFP's) don't take well to harsh criticism. So, I try my best to refrain from same unless my other attempts to address the problem have failed. Then, admittedly, my temper will sometimes flare, and I'll end up saying some amazingly nasty things. Afterwards, I might feel bad for the damage I've caused (and inwardly curse myself for having lost control like that), but I don't regret what I've said per se. After all, nasty or not... it was still true. If they didn't want it to come to that, maybe they should have taken care of the problem the first few times I brought it up, when I was being kindly and patient.
> 
> 3) Yes, I'm very "intense" in general. If you can't take the heat, then get the hell out of the blast furnace, because that's not going to change. And as an aside, do people have any idea how unutterably *boring* non "intense" people are? I mean, good god... show some spark! Give a damn about something! Are you even alive? Ugh!
> 
> 4) The closer something lies to my heart, emotionally speaking, the harder a time I have finding the words to communicate it to others and the longer the process takes. It's a bit easier over emails and on messageboards than it is face to face, because that way I can take the time to fully process it and get the phrasing just right. In person though, it can be horrible. On the day I got married, I turned to my husband and said, "If I absolutely have to turn into an old f*ck, I'd *far* rather turn into one with you than with anyone else. We can be old f*cks together!" and then smiled. Yes, I'm serious... this is what I said, to someone I'd take a bullet for. (Fortunately I married an INTP who doesn't seem to mind my deficit in this regard, lol.)
> 
> 5) You might not agree with my priorities or values, but I do have them. Don't try to turn me into someone else, because you will only frustrate us both.
> 
> 6) I don't believe I'm *that* intimidating or scary... although many, many people have told me otherwise! Yes, I can deliberately "ham it up" if it serves my purposes at the time, but I can't seem to turn "it" off, whatever "it" is.
> 
> 7) Call me cold, evil, inhuman, or anything like that and I'll thank you, as if you just gave me a compliment. (And if I'm in a really good mood and not busy at that moment, I might even ham a bit for you, as per #6.)
> 
> 8) I love toilet humor, just in general. Always have. If you know any good toilet jokes, then by all means, share.
> 
> 9) Lazy people piss me off.
> 
> 10) Irresponsible people piss me off.
> 
> 11) People who just can't seem to be on time piss me off.
> 
> 12) People who said they'd do something but then flake out piss me off.
> 
> 13) People who flake but don't give an acceptable reason/excuse for having done so piss me off even more. Btw, you are allowed two (2) dead grandmothers per year. Yes, I keep track.
> 
> 13) Slow people piss me off. Either move faster or get out of the way.
> 
> 14) People who are cruel to animals/children/people who are weaker than themselves because they get some sort of a twisted, sadistic thrill from it really, *really* piss me off.
> 
> 15) Say what you mean and mean what you say.
> 
> 16) Don't attempt to buy me off with gifts, etc. Frankly, it comes across as an insincere attempt to manipulate me, and I don't like it. And if you're unsure as to whether it would come off that way... well, "when in doubt, leave it out" doesn't just apply to writing.
> 
> 17) If I tell you something in confidence and find out later that you told others, I'll never fully trust you again.
> 
> 18) If you don't like me being overbearing, here's a bit of advice for you. Don't act like a three year-old, and I won't treat you like one.
> 
> 19) I talk a fair bit, and greatly enjoy intellectually stimulating conversation when I'm not too busy to engage in it. So should you, if we're going to get along.
> 
> 20) If I try to talk about my feelings, listen. Yes, I know it might be somewhat awkward, but I really can't help it. (See #4.)
> 
> 21) I have learned that people need reassurance/positive feedback at times, and if I give a damn about you, I will try my absolute best to provide it when you seem to be needing it.
> 
> 22) If you are close to me emotionally, understand I might need reassurance from you as well, every once in awhile. (Surprise!) I hate admitting this, but believe it or not, there are moments when I am overwrought, and when I feel insecure, self-doubting, and/or indecisive. (I do my absolute damnedest to hide it from general view, but believe me, it occasionally happens.) If I do allow you to see this and you blow me off, I will be deeply hurt. If you think I judge others harshly, you have no idea how harshly I judge myself... I am frankly ashamed of feeling this way, and for someone I respect to see it and recoil as well... ugh. It's not pleasant. :/
> 
> 23) If I respect you and value your opinion, I will dislike it if you make nasty jokes at my expense. (If I don't give a damn about you on a personal level, then you can say whatever you want and I won't care.)
> 
> 24) If I respect you and value your opinion, I will do my best to refrain from making nasty jokes at your expense, as well. (This is only fair, after all. See #23.)
> 
> 25) If you turn a conversation into an argument and I turn around and make you look like a fool in response, then frankly, you deserved it.


hahahaha, goddamn. this is the cringiest thing i've read in a while. at least now i know what an autistic entj look like.


----------



## Elistra

Habburgers said:


> hahahaha, goddamn. this is the cringiest thing i've read in a while. at least now i know what an autistic entj look like.


Assuming you are actually an INTP... well, glass houses, stones, and all that.


----------



## Elistra

Hmm. April of 2013. Over four years ago, I wrote those 25 points. Looking back over that list, most of it is still true, even though I am more conversant with my Fi than I was back then.

I would amend...

6) I know what it is now, it's basically the intensity lent to the entire system by what I call "the Get Shit Done engine." Some people sense that, and are intimidated/alienated/overwhelmed by it.

_Ironically, the power plant for the Get Shit Done engine is actually Fi, not Te._ You'd think that wasn't possible, given how comparatively little/undeveloped my Fi is, but think about it: how little are rods of uranium, compared to the overall size of a nuclear power plant? It's kind of like that.

15) Even less tolerance for jive talk/semantic word-shoving games than formerly. I don't have time for that shit.

16) I'm slightly better re: trust issues now, mostly because these days I'm far more prone to simply drop dysfunctional people that I neither like nor respect. Before, I was more prone to put up with them, for the sake of satisfying intellectual curiosity regarding the origin/progression of their dysfunction. 

18) Again, I simply drop those people now. I've already got enough data to last me a lifetime, and most of them are not worth dealing with otherwise. (This is basically Fi-based values steering the ship a little more than they used to.)

22) Oh, it's still awkward, but it's mostly vulnerability now. One feels... little, and nervous, you know? There's much less of a shame component, well, unless I have fucked up.


----------



## Baracuda902

I remember one conversation I had with an INFP where she used the chicken and the egg question as a basis for evolution or creationism, and I stared her the fuck down and disagreed with her in a controlled debate voice. Every point she would make would be thrown back at her immediately. Looking back, I can see how that might be intimidating.


----------



## Dare

Elistra said:


> _Ironically, the power plant for the Get Shit Done engine is actually Fi, not Te._


It's nice to come across someone else who sees it this way. I've been thinking about how Fi (values/passion) seems to drive Te in TJs. It's interesting bc it seems to be a position of function thing (Fi lower in the function stack driving higher Te). Well, that's what my experience with TJs vs INFPs (with dominant Fi, inferior Te) tells me.


----------



## Fumetsu

Dare said:


> It's nice to come across someone else who sees it this way. I've been thinking about how Fi (values/passion) seems to drive Te in TJs. It's interesting bc it seems to be a position of function thing (Fi lower in the function stack driving higher Te). Well, that's what my experience with TJs vs INFPs (with dominant Fi, inferior Te) tells me.


Not in my experience.

I know a handful of Fi men. They are always too busy worrying that they aren't good enough to even _begin_ anything.


----------



## Fumetsu

Bolderousness said:


> I remember one conversation I had with an INFP where she used the chicken and the egg question as a basis for evolution or creationism, and I stared her the fuck down and disagreed with her in a controlled debate voice. Every point she would make would be thrown back at her immediately. Looking back, I can see how that might be intimidating.


Never understood why this is considered a difficult:
Invertebrates <Fish<Amphibians< Velocoraptors< Chickens. 
Eggs. Eggs were first.

And I fight that type if debate obnoxious. My response is usually " Wow, this stupid debate is THAT serious to you? Okay, have fun. I'm going to do something contsructive. It's one way I don't agree with ither ENTJ's.


----------



## Dare

Fumetsu said:


> Not in my experience.
> 
> I know a handful of Fi men. They are always too busy worrying that they aren't good enough to even _begin_ anything.


That's what I'm saying, apparently badly. Te types are driven by (lower) Fi. The same is not true for Fi types. The position of Fi relative to Te makes the difference. I agree with you, in my experience INFPs are not driven and don't 'get shit done' like XXTJs tend to.


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## incision

IRL, I have two ENFP close friends. Authentic non-manipulative individuals have nothing to fear from ENTJs. But don't try to manipulate or bullshit an ENTJ. We will see through your games and respond accordingly.


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## Butterthanyou

As an ENTJ I'm beginning to wonder if I'm creepy. Cuz every other ENTJ I've met as come off super creepy... so ..... 
Also, don't let us see your fear, we feed upon it....


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## Nannerl

Nah, they're just hot when they think they're right, woops


----------



## dulcinea

Most "ENTJ's" aren't actually ENTJs. They're actually just huge jerks who say they're "ENTJ" because they think they're actually being "alphas" and that ENTJ is the "alpha" type, therefore they can't help being "cutthroat" or "calling out your bull".
A true extraverted thinker, however, is generally rather fair minded and doesn't typically tend to resort to trolling for attention or to look all big and bad, as a lot of these fake ENTJs are obviously doing. They seem like mistyped extroverts who are either sensors, feelers or both.
Actually, with men, I lean towards feelers in denial. I think a lot of F men overcompensate and try to act like what they project as strong thinkers, but fail miserably at acting like a genuine thinking person, because their misguided projections always get mixed up in the act.


----------



## Fru2

dulcinea said:


> Most "ENTJ's" aren't actually ENTJs. They're actually just huge jerks who say they're "ENTJ" because they think they're actually being "alphas" and that ENTJ is the "alpha" type, therefore they can't help being "cutthroat" or "calling out your bull".
> A true extraverted thinker, however, is generally rather fair minded and doesn't typically tend to resort to trolling for attention or to look all big and bad, as a lot of these fake ENTJs are obviously doing. They seem like mistyped extroverts who are either sensors, feelers or both.
> Actually, with men, I lean towards feelers in denial. I think a lot of F men overcompensate and try to act like what they project as strong thinkers, but fail miserably at acting like a genuine thinking person, because their misguided projections always get mixed up in the act.


Interesting you say that, I always got XNFP before I got more into MBTI so you probably have a point there. Would be interestin to see some examples from you of famous people/characters that you'd consider ENTJs as compared to ones you think have an ENTJs persona. I could give an example myself of someone who I think is ENTJ:


----------



## dulcinea

Fru2 said:


> Interesting you say that, I always got XNFP before I got more into MBTI so you probably have a point there. Would be interestin to see some examples from you of famous people/characters that you'd consider ENTJs as compared to ones you think have an ENTJs persona. I could give an example myself of someone who I think is ENTJ:


I find true extraverted thinkers, even when on the extreme side, might act like, say Tuvok (the Vulcan) on Star Trek Voyager.




My experience with ENTJs and INTJs on this forum is that the majority are blunt, but exceedingly polite. People who seem to have trouble with what words mean seem to think bluntness and rudeness are the same thing, and thus, might choose to word their replies in an unecessarily rude manner saying, basically, "I disagree with you, therefore you are stupid" instead of "Your point is factually incorrect and your premise is fallacious" without the need for personal attacks, which would be a more likely NT, and extraverted thinker kind of reply.
I'd think an extraverted thinker would find unecessary rudeness to be an ineffective and inefficient way of communicating thoughts.


----------



## Fru2

dulcinea said:


> People who seem to have trouble with what words mean seem to think bluntness and rudeness are the same thing, and thus, might choose to word their replies in an unecessarily rude manner.


Very insightful. As someone who sees things others don't and can't help but have the urge to point it out for the perceived betterment overall, my words often get to become the canvas of the recipients' own perception. How do you make others see what you see?
Jung says this about the introverted intuitive:


> Their life teaches more than their words. From their lives, and not the least from what is just their greatest fault, viz. their incommunicability, we may understand one of the greatest errors of our civilization, that is, the superstitious belief in statement and presentation, the immoderate overprizing of instruction by means of word and method. A child certainly allows himself to be impressed by the grand talk of its parents. But is it really imagined that the child is thereby educated? Actually it is the parents' lives that educate the child -- what they add thereto by word and gesture at best serves only to confuse him.


This goes back to what you said about it being an online issue - in real life the need to communicate disappears, since the ability to _show_ solves the problem.


----------



## Red Panda

dulcinea said:


> Most "ENTJ's" aren't actually ENTJs. They're actually just huge jerks who say they're "ENTJ" because they think they're actually being "alphas" and that ENTJ is the "alpha" type, therefore they can't help being "cutthroat" or "calling out your bull".
> A true extraverted thinker, however, is generally rather fair minded and doesn't typically tend to resort to trolling for attention or to look all big and bad, as a lot of these fake ENTJs are obviously doing. They seem like mistyped extroverts who are either sensors, feelers or both.
> Actually, with men, I lean towards feelers in denial. I think a lot of F men overcompensate and try to act like what they project as strong thinkers, but fail miserably at acting like a genuine thinking person, because their misguided projections always get mixed up in the act.


Good point, but also I think a true extraverted thinker is many times not even typed as NTJ, but NTP. Since NTPs are adaptable thinkers, just like TE is supposed to be. Depends which system one uses to type themselves. 
Emmanuel Macron is an mbti ENTJ and a Jungian "TI-NI".
Also TE has little to do with efficiency that's not already contained in "T". In fact many times what we see as efficiency-seeking behavior from NTJs is their introverted nature seeking to realize their subjective vision and avoid adapting to the environment instead.


----------



## mia-me

dulcinea said:


> I find true extraverted thinkers, even when on the extreme side, might act like, say Tuvok (the Vulcan) on Star Trek Voyager.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My experience with ENTJs and INTJs on this forum is that the majority are blunt, but exceedingly polite. People who seem to have trouble with what words mean seem to think bluntness and rudeness are the same thing, and thus, might choose to word their replies in an unecessarily rude manner saying, basically, "I disagree with you, therefore you are stupid" instead of "Your point is factually incorrect and your premise is fallacious" without the need for personal attacks, which would be a more likely NT, and extraverted thinker kind of reply.
> I'd think an extraverted thinker would find unecessary rudeness to be an ineffective and inefficient way of communicating thoughts.


No true scotsman.

ENTJs are like everyone else, a mixed bag.


----------



## chamomile tea

When I've first met ENTJs they always initially scare me with their presence and forwardness. 

I've only ever gotten to know a few ENTJs, but behind that really hard exterior there's a softer interior~
Sometimes I think they don't really realize how certain words or phrases may be seen, felt, or interpreted by others.

As other people have said... there are different shades of grey!


----------



## Fru2

Red Panda said:


> Emmanuel Macron is an mbti ENTJ and a Jungian "TI-NI".
> Also TE has little to do with efficiency that's not already contained in "T". In fact many times what we see as efficiency-seeking behavior from NTJs is their introverted nature seeking to realize their subjective vision and avoid adapting to the environment instead.


From what I've seen, I don't see any original thought _or_ delivery of original unconscious imagery in Macron, it seems very unlikely for me that he's an ENTJ, let alone an Ni or Ti strong user. What I do see is the use of Te, Si and Ne. He speaks in terms of current occurences which he gives a very detailed (and hopefully his own) take on, he warns of future possibilities, identifies opportunities and breaks down issues into different aspects with a conclusion that has absolutely no point(a point here meaning a basis for action). He's in no way using Ni since that will lead to the exact opposite of what he's doing, he's divergent and not at all convergent, his conclusions being non conclusive which I see as a hallmark of high Si.


----------



## impulsenine

dulcinea said:


> Most "ENTJ's" aren't actually ENTJs. They're actually just huge jerks who say they're "ENTJ" because they think they're actually being "alphas" and that ENTJ is the "alpha" type, therefore they can't help being "cutthroat" or "calling out your bull".
> A true extraverted thinker, however, is generally rather fair minded and doesn't typically tend to resort to trolling for attention or to look all big and bad, as a lot of these fake ENTJs are obviously doing. They seem like mistyped extroverts who are either sensors, feelers or both.
> Actually, with men, I lean towards feelers in denial. I think a lot of F men overcompensate and try to act like what they project as strong thinkers, but fail miserably at acting like a genuine thinking person, because their misguided projections always get mixed up in the act.


This happens if you try to understand "personality types" based on what they tell you or on what they say. To understand a personality type, you have to go deeper and look for motivations, HOW and WHY they do something?

The secret to knowing the differences between personality types is this: analyze people you know, who have been typed properly. Or you can rely on serious people who offer interviews on YouTube or celebrities (who were analyzed a lot by many people).

You don't realize what does a personality type means if you base your knowledge on what they say they do or what they do on the internet, after they discovered their personality type.

Also, most importantly: interacting with people who have nothing to do with it. They have no idea about personality typologies. Then you find out exactly what cognitive functions are, and how they are used.

When you see them in action, naturally, without any influence/awareness.

I never made up my mind about people based on what type of personality they listed.
Also we have to take into consideration that a lot of people who are into personality typologies (being interested in that field) usually lack something. They are in a not-balanced state.

Even when you look at this forum for example, the people here are not "representative role models" for their personality types, because people who choose to spend a lot of time on the internet and have time to get involved in such things, usually don't have an organized, balanced life. And if they don't have an organized life, they're probably not mentally organized either.

(of course there are exceptions).

*;tl;dr*: good examples of personality types are those who have no idea about it. Actually go and see Te-Ni in action if you want a representative image of that type. preferably in reality. That's it. Anything else is bullshit.


----------



## Fru2

impulsenine said:


> Also we have to take into consideration that a lot of people who are into personality typologies (being interested in that field) usually lack something. They are in a not-balanced state.


Yes, because a genuine interest in the inner workings of the mind means that there's something wrong with you! Of Course!


> Even when you look at this forum for example, the people here are not "representative role models" for their personality types, because people who choose to spend a lot of time on the internet and have time to get involved in such things, usually don't have an organized, balanced life. And if they don't have an organized life, they're probably not mentally organized either.


What about the people that have extra time on their hands due to havin their lives fully organized to the point that they have spare time to engage in their own interests?


> (of course there are exceptions).


Ah! thankfully you've now got plausible deniability. What do you have to prove that the exception is not the rule?


----------



## impulsenine

Fru2 said:


> Yes, because a genuine interest in the inner workings of the mind means that there's something wrong with you! Of Course!


It's not about what interest is, it's about how it is manifested.



Fru2 said:


> What about the people that have extra time on their hands due to havin their lives fully organized to the point that they have spare time to engage in their own interests?


Cool. Whoever does this will not be bothered by what I said.
If you're upset, you're probably not in this situation



Fru2 said:


> Ah! thankfully you've now got plausible deniability. What do you have to prove that the exception is not the rule?


Do you have any evidence that the exception would be the rule?
Of course not. Because it doesn't exist.

It is something subjectively and unquantifiable.
No one has conducted a scientific study on this. So we have no evidence.

It's just my opinion.
You have yours.
We have different opinions because they are based on different observations. Both are true and have the same value. 
Everyone is happy.


----------



## Penny

Rachelinpa said:


> entjs are scary to me. i never have anything to say to them, and i think they find me annoying and childish. i wonder if entjs ever like enfps or if they always hate me... or hate the fact that i wonder if they hate me...???
> 
> it's a shame because i think i would like them, but you guys are are so super serious... (or am i misreading...) that i can't break through...


ENTJ's are no threat. they are too self absorbed and wrapped up in excessive thinking and overanalyzing to be of a concern for your safety. (or rather as E's absorbed in the business of others they consider worth their thoughts) if it's friendship you seek, then you must learn to overuse intellectual wording and capitulate to their intellectual arrogance and use big obscure words while acting self-important to attract their attention


----------



## Red Panda

Fru2 said:


> From what I've seen, I don't see any original thought _or_ delivery of original unconscious imagery in Macron, it seems very unlikely for me that he's an ENTJ, let alone an Ni or Ti strong user. What I do see is the use of Te, Si and Ne. He speaks in terms of current occurences which he gives a very detailed (and hopefully his own) take on, he warns of future possibilities, identifies opportunities and breaks down issues into different aspects with a conclusion that has absolutely no point(a point here meaning a basis for action). He's in no way using Ni since that will lead to the exact opposite of what he's doing, he's divergent and not at all convergent, his conclusions being non conclusive which I see as a hallmark of high Si.


Of course it's not obvious when he speaks to the public, cause one has to adapt what they say to their audience, but if you read about his life and approach he couldn't be an ST. He's quite idea oriented, studied philosophy and has a long, overarching vision about how he wants things to be. He was typed ENTP by the official MBTI I think, but he's not Ne for sure, way too much a pragmatist and bad with F when it comes to other people. Compared to S, NI is divergent too.


----------



## Fru2

Red Panda said:


> Of course it's not obvious when he speaks to the public, cause one has to adapt what they say to their audience, but if you read about his life and approach he couldn't be an ST


I've read a bit about him, can't see why he wouldn't be an ST, what about him makes you think he's not one? His background screams 'privileged' and 'upper class' if anything to me.
And how did you reach the conclusion that Ni is divergent?


----------



## Red Panda

Fru2 said:


> I've read a bit about him, can't see why he wouldn't be an ST, what about him makes you think he's not one? His background screams 'privileged' and 'upper class' if anything to me.
> And how did you reach the conclusion that Ni is divergent?


Maybe you'll see it in this example: 



He's quite different than any ST in the way he views things, very much a forward thinker and tries to push things where his vision is. His face is pretty typical of high N>S too. I can see why he'd type himself ENTP given how many of the J questions don't appeal to Ns, plus he doesn't seem greatly introverted either.
I meant N is divergent from the way S views the world, other than that both NE and NI can be convergent or divergent depending on what is being perceived, after all what differs is the subject or object-focus of the person when it comes to exploring new ideas especially, not necessarily what characterizes the pattern itself.


----------



## Fru2

Red Panda said:


> Maybe you'll see it in this example


 That's a video I've watched before I wrote my initial reaction to you, nowhere in there is he explaining something new, for people of his stature these are well-regurgitated themes.


> I meant N is divergent from the way S views the world, other than that both NE and NI can be convergent or divergent depending on what is being perceived, after all what differs is the subject or object-focus of the person when it comes to exploring new ideas especially, not necessarily what characterizes the pattern itself.


I see what you mean, but I think you might find a further look into it useful - what I've understood from Jung's descriptions is that Introversion streams the energy inward, while extraversion streams it outward. That's what I think of when I say convergent and divergent respectively. 
A further look into the description of N shows the way in which the energy flow differs in the following manner:
Introverted Ni works unconsciously, and brings about distilled perceptions that are well defined and lead to a decisive conclusion. The need to explore new ideas would fade to the background and would seem like noise, or even distraction, since there is already a perfect sense of knowing. Further investigation into the hunch is then proceeded and in that sense Ni moves the person 'deeper' in, the application of the result of such endeavors leads more often than not to a change of range of actions and a need to flip things upside down(Se).
From what I understand from Jung and others I've spoken with, Ne seems to be a rather conscious process - there is a perception of possibilities that are introduced which create opportunities. In that way, the more Ne is used, the further away from the original topic the Ne user goes. 
Let's lay aside Macron for a second and see if we agree on these definitions, because it could very well be that Macron is just acting since it's a part of his job to be a mouthpeace, and that's not as interesting for me as understanding your process of thinking.


----------



## Red Panda

Fru2 said:


> That's a video I've watched before I wrote my initial reaction to you, nowhere in there is he explaining something new, for people of his stature these are well-regurgitated themes.


new for whom? you or the average sensor? the way he talks seems unlike any sensor politician to me, even.



> I see what you mean, but I think you might find a further look into it useful - what I've understood from Jung's descriptions is that Introversion streams the energy inward, while extraversion streams it outward. That's what I think of when I say convergent and divergent respectively.
> A further look into the description of N shows the way in which the energy flow differs in the following manner:
> Introverted Ni works unconsciously, and brings about distilled perceptions that are well defined and lead to a decisive conclusion. The need to explore new ideas would fade to the background and would seem like noise, or even distraction, since there is already a perfect sense of knowing. Further investigation into the hunch is then proceeded and in that sense Ni moves the person 'deeper' in, the application of the result of such endeavors leads more often than not to a change of range of actions and a need to flip things upside down(Se).
> From what I understand from Jung and others I've spoken with, Ne seems to be a rather conscious process - there is a perception of possibilities that are introduced which create opportunities. In that way, the more Ne is used, the further away from the original topic the Ne user goes.
> Let's lay aside Macron for a second and see if we agree on these definitions, because it could very well be that Macron is just acting since it's a part of his job to be a mouthpeace, and that's not as interesting for me as understanding your process of thinking.


Jung described N in general, as operating unconsciously, if u have the book go to page 134 (routledge ed):
"[the intuitive] raises unconscious perception to the level of a differentiated function, by which he also achieves his adaptation to the world. He adapts by means of unconscious directives, which he receives through an especially sensitive and sharpened perception and interpretation of dimly conscious stimuli"

It sounds to me you're kinda describing perception from the perspective of a judging dom, possibly. If you mean those perceptions can have a sense of certainty in them, ok I can agree with that (tho it's true of both N dom types). Often the way it's described by the MBTI seems more like judging to me than perception (when they talk about organizing things). N doms, even when NI are not about the conclusions per se, but I guess a certain attachment they have to what they perceive as it's related to some subjective drive. NIs expand, and don't stop expanding and exploring, but due to that attachment they avoid/filter out information that doesn't seem to fit whatever that subjective derivative exists underneath. "A bird flew into my home, while I'm struggling with this personal matter, these things somehow connect, the universe/god is sending me an omen" is introverted perception at play.

Flipping things upside down is NE. SE is not interested in doing this because the straight-up way of seeing things is what guides their perception & psychology. S is guided by the strongest stimuli, or perhaps really what's _frequent_. If something occurs frequently, it is perceived by the body as "tangible", VS a rare occurence that someone may not even experience and is basically in the realm of possibility, which is only seen as "dimly conscious" and is what the N cares about, as the potential of that thing happening illuminates a principle of that object's nature and what it can do. Flipping things upside down is more in the interest of N than S, but NE will do it habitually even when there's a chance everything connected up to now is torn apart and falsified. The NE doesn't care about that because they'll likely see it as a new potential, but the NI can fear it if it threatens what they're attached to, so such information is often treated as irrelevant and filtered out.

The common way NE is understood by the MBTI+ sounds more like a process of brainstorming that anyone is capable of just by being human. Doesn't say anything about how those possibilities are derived or what they mean for one's whole understanding of everything, so this description seems lacking to me. Real NE connects things together because we perceive principles about objects that connect them to other objects, it's like creating an infinite web. The possibilities we talk about in regards to the objects have to do with the principles of their nature. Opportunity can be something anyone can create even by being introverted, I mean if you are seeking what opportunities a certain job will allow for we're not necessarily talking about NE process here.

Actually Jung differentiates _concrete_ and _abstract_ intuition based on the level of sensation participating in the process. "Concrete intuition mediates perceptions concerned with the actuality of things, abstract intuition mediates perceptions of ideational connections" (pg 416). I dunno how accurate it is, but I guess most sensors who are not very strongly S and have a mix of N at play do the former and is prob what the MBTI sees as Ne the most.


----------



## Fru2

Red Panda said:


> Actually Jung differentiates _concrete_ and _abstract_ intuition based on the level of sensation participating in the process. "Concrete intuition mediates perceptions concerned with the actuality of things, abstract intuition mediates perceptions of ideational connections" (pg 416). I dunno how accurate it is, but I guess most sensors who are not very strongly S and have a mix of N at play do the former and is prob what the MBTI sees as Ne the most.


Properly identifying the different elements is key here.
"Concrete intuition mediates perceptions concerned with the *actuality of things*(Se), abstract intuition mediates perceptions of *ideational connections*(Ne, as you yourself have just said)"
I think Ne can jump to conclusions, as long as the links created fit the overall web. What you're completely discarding here imo is the application of those cases to real life - Se.
Which is logical if you're largely using Ne. I can see why you'd interpret the first as Ne, since it seems more concrete to you, but it connects to Si, not Se. Se-Ni and Ne-Si are two axes, same way Te would be the balancing factor of Fi. Balance here is key - Ne would not balance Se out since the attitude would be the same, leading to unhealthy levels of extreme perceptive extraversion.
I would go as far as to say that Ni *needs* to reflect on Se, and the same goes for Ne and Si. Ne reflecting on Si's subjective interpretation of the physical. In that sense as Jung says about Si: "no sort of proportional relation exists between object and sensation, but something that is apparently quite irregular and arbitrary judging from without", Ne bases its connections on a subjective take of concrete factors.


> Jung described N in general, as operating unconsciously, if u have the book go to page 134 (routledge ed):
> "[the intuitive] raises unconscious perception to the level of a differentiated function, by which he also achieves his adaptation to the world. He adapts by means of unconscious directives, which he receives through an especially sensitive and sharpened perception and interpretation of dimly conscious stimuli"


Awesome, thanks for the source


> SE is not interested in doing this because the straight-up way of seeing things is what guides their perception & psychology.


Yes, Se reacts to external events *proportionally* to the event itself. As opposed to:


> S is guided by the strongest stimuli, or perhaps really what's _frequent_. If something occurs frequently, it is perceived by the body as "tangible", VS a rare occurence that someone may not even experience and is basically in the realm of possibility


This is Si. My Se dom gf wouldn't care how frequent something is in as much as the degree of sensing it gives. Frequency is more important to Si because it affects the subjective perception of objective reality by slowly steering it in a direction.

Here is where Ni fits in - Ni as opposed to Si, recognizes the direction in which an objective event 'tries' to steer reality, this being a subjective perception of external objective events in as far as it reacts on a _personal perception across-time(Ni)_ to the _proportionate perception of the objective event(Se)_. This is why I say that Se combined with Ni would flip things upside down, since it expects a reaction proportionate to the action taken(which is often not the case when an Si user is involved in the reaction).


> Flipping things upside down is more in the interest of N than S, but NE will do it habitually even when there's a chance everything connected up to now is torn apart and falsified. The NE doesn't care about that because they'll likely see it as a new potential, but the NI can fear it if it threatens what they're attached to, so such information is often treated as irrelevant and filtered out.


You're more accurate than me when it comes to the representation of Ne, but I think that Ni and Se play such a fatal role in my thinking that I'll have to point a couple things out here -
Ni can indeed fear things being flipped upside down, but more due to an inconfidence in the Se result of the Ni potential than due to an attachment of how they _personally perceive things are_, because that's much more of an Si thing. Ni in actuality often lacks the attachment to the physical - Jung says on the matter "In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the co-operation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person. "
I can see how this can be misinterpreted, but when considering that Ni shows archetypal imagery, it can be understood that the subjective perception of outside influences doesn't attach the Ni user to the influencing factor as much as it is attached to the archetype the influencing factor represents. The perception of the influencing factor *can be switched in an instant* if the archetypal representation is switched, which to me often happens.
Maybe that's a way I could make my perceived distinction between Ni and Si clearer? Si would start off as ambivalent to the influencing factor at hand, since there's yet no subjective imprint that is created through repetition.


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