# SP versus NT



## Staryu

What are some of the key differences? Many NTs type themselves as SP, and vice versa.


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## TreeBob

I think you meant to say many NP type themselves SP. NT is a broad dichotomy that includes Ni and Ne types. The way Ni and Ne process information is completely different. Ne can be confused with Se at times because they are both in the present.


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## ThisIsWhereIrunAway

Haven't heard of this happening but I would assume since NTs can be detail oriented in the sense that they sometimes care about very detailed logical fallacies or being nit picky about word choice and word spelling, they could mistype as an SP. In that sense I can see a blurriness in the understanding between the two. I think that it can be confused that practical may mean logical. If you compared an INTJ and ESFP.... which one seems more practical? Well some might argue ESFP but you could say that INTJ is more practical despite not being an S.


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## Staryu

ThisIsWhereIrunAway said:


> Haven't heard of this happening but I would assume since NTs can be detail oriented in the sense that they sometimes care about very detailed logical fallacies or being nit picky about word choice and word spelling, they could mistype as an SP. In that sense I can see a blurriness in the understanding between the two. I think that it can be confused that practical may mean logical. If you compared an INTJ and ESFP.... which one seems more practical? Well some might argue ESFP but you could say that INTJ is more practical despite not being an S.


lol, some NTs care about spelling. for me i don't care, all i care about is the content and what you are saying. that's y i write lk this, it's faster & gets the msg across. screw spelling ^_^
hmm, good point about the ESFP versus the INTJ. what i am confused about though, is do all NTs like academic stuff and learning? I certainly don't, I get bored of talking and would much rather DO things. I also learn best hands-on, and I think I might have mistyped myself NT, when in reality I'm SP. I also don't really care about intelligence unless it achieves practical results. 
I was wondering though..what would some of the key differences between NT and SP be?
obviously SPs are more present-oriented, but NTs can be so too, esp ENTJs for example what with the Te-Se loop.


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## ThisIsWhereIrunAway

Staryu said:


> lol, some NTs care about spelling. for me i don't care, all i care about is the content and what you are saying. that's y i write lk this, it's faster & gets the msg across. screw spelling ^_^
> hmm, good point about the ESFP versus the INTJ. what i am confused about though, is do all NTs like academic stuff and learning? I certainly don't, I get bored of talking and would much rather DO things. I also learn best hands-on, and I think I might have mistyped myself NT, when in reality I'm SP. I also don't really care about intelligence unless it achieves practical results.
> I was wondering though..what would some of the key differences between NT and SP be?
> obviously SPs are more present-oriented, but NTs can be so too, esp ENTJs for example what with the Te-Se loop.


hm. maybe you aren't ENTJ. Yes true not all NTs care about spelling but I meant in general that could be a reason why some NTs mistype. Not all NTs like academic stuff. In fact lots of NTs don't. However most NTs love learning. 

Just relax. Then figure out what your first function is by realizing what function you are using. What do you naturally use? 

Do you gain energy from making judgments on the outside world with Te? Do you gain energy from perceiving the detailed world through Se aka detailed sensory perception? Do you like complex concepts/ideas? 


You certainly come off as if you have Te Se Ni and Fi. however the order is up for grabs. Do you identify with ESFP at all? What about ISFP? 

When you talked to me on my page you seemed more ENTJ. After I asked you a question you asked questions that resembled that of an ENTJ. 

Perhaps you are getting in touch with your inner Se and Fi to a point where you are questioning your actual type?


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## TreeBob

Staryu said:


> lol, some NTs care about spelling. for me i don't care, all i care about is the content and what you are saying. that's y i write lk this, it's faster & gets the msg across. screw spelling ^_^
> hmm, good point about the ESFP versus the INTJ. what i am confused about though, is do all NTs like academic stuff and learning? I certainly don't, I get bored of talking and would much rather DO things. I also learn best hands-on, and I think I might have mistyped myself NT, when in reality I'm SP. I also don't really care about intelligence unless it achieves practical results.
> I was wondering though..what would some of the key differences between NT and SP be?
> obviously SPs are more present-oriented, but NTs can be so too, esp ENTJs for example what with the Te-Se loop.


I like how you ignored what I just said. A Te-Se loop would be rather rare and not likely as an explanation (but yes it could be possible). 

Ne - present-oriented
Se - present-oriented

Very simple and it has happened to many on this forum. I know harley is here watching. :happy:


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## Staryu

ThisIsWhereIrunAway said:


> hm. maybe you aren't ENTJ. Yes true not all NTs care about spelling but I meant in general that could be a reason why some NTs mistype. Not all NTs like academic stuff. In fact lots of NTs don't. However most NTs love learning.
> 
> Just relax. Then figure out what your first function is by realizing what function you are using. What do you naturally use?
> 
> Do you gain energy from making judgments on the outside world with Te? Do you gain energy from perceiving the detailed world through Se aka detailed sensory perception? Do you like complex concepts/ideas?
> 
> 
> You certainly come off as if you have Te Se Ni and Fi. however the order is up for grabs. Do you identify with ESFP at all? What about ISFP?
> 
> When you talked to me on my page you seemed more ENTJ. After I asked you a question you asked questions that resembled that of an ENTJ.
> 
> Perhaps you are getting in touch with your inner Se and Fi to a point where you are questioning your actual type?


I like learning too, but I dislike learning just for the sake of learning. I need to learn with a purpose. 
It has to be able to DO something, useless knowledge doesn't cut it. That's why I hate school.
Yup, that's right..my judgments are more about the external environment rather than myself and stuff. And yes, Se is definitely my energizing function. If I want to wind down, nothing does it like going to a football game with my buddies or some on-stage event. I am a bit of a thrill seeker too, and love stuff like motorbiking[I want my M2 licence!]..in short, an adrenaline junkie.
I'm not sure..my MBTI type keeps changing. SFP could be possible too though!
hmm..or maybe im ENTJ after all, i dunno:laughing:


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## Staryu

TreeBob said:


> I like how you ignored what I just said. A Te-Se loop would be rather rare and not likely as an explanation (but yes it could be possible).
> 
> Ne - present-oriented
> Se - present-oriented
> 
> Very simple and it has happened to many on this forum. I know harley is here watching. :happy:


Sorry, I thought i clicked the thank button!! my bad >.> i didn't really understand what you said the first time ._. 
well Ne is present intuiting and Se is present sensing..right? that's still somewhat confusing i_i


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## ThisIsWhereIrunAway

TreeBob said:


> I like how you ignored what I just said. A Te-Se loop would be rather rare and not likely as an explanation (but yes it could be possible).
> 
> Ne - present-oriented
> Se - present-oriented
> 
> Very simple and it has happened to many on this forum. I know harley is here watching. :happy:


It'ss nottt that simple. Ne is kind of present oriented.... its also past and future oriented. And why is a Te Se loop rare?


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## ThisIsWhereIrunAway

Staryu said:


> I like learning too, but I dislike learning just for the sake of learning. I need to learn with a purpose.
> It has to be able to DO something, useless knowledge doesn't cut it. That's why I hate school.
> Yup, that's right..my judgments are more about the external environment rather than myself and stuff. And yes, Se is definitely my energizing function. If I want to wind down, nothing does it like going to a football game with my buddies or some on-stage event. I am a bit of a thrill seeker too, and love stuff like motorbiking[I want my M2 licence!]..in short, an adrenaline junkie.
> I'm not sure..my MBTI type keeps changing. SFP could be possible too though!
> hmm..or maybe im ENTJ after all, i dunno:laughing:


You sound like an ENTJ. I can see how your analysis of yourself has led you to think you may be SP with...
1) wanting to DO something 
2) Se being your energize function 
3) football 
4) thrill seeker 


However I can definitely see ENTJs getting into it. Se is kind of an energize function for everyone. Its a fuckin energetic function period. However what I was asking was what do you feel comfortable using.... what is natural.... poor word choice on my part. Wanting to Do something can have to do with S or it could be J. it crosses over. It isnt a definitive characteristic. J's like doinnng things cause they want to get things done. They like closure on the external world. S's get shit done because they are so involved in the real world. Everything they do has less to do about theorizing and more to do about the real world. The only thing to do in the real world is to actually do shit. So naturall S's will be into DOING things. But I would analyze "doing" as a way of figuring out your type despite the type descriptions. 

Football and thrill seeking..... that could be anything. Again doesn't really definitely type someone based on that. Yes it does tend to be more ST but thats only a tendency. I know lots of other types into those sort of things.


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## TreeBob

ThisIsWhereIrunAway said:


> It'ss nottt that simple. Ne is kind of present oriented.... its also past and future oriented. And why is a Te Se loop rare?


If we assume that type statistics are correct or even close then xNTJ are rare. Now assume a portion of them are "stuck" in a loop. That would make them quite rare. To type ENTJ on a test you could not have been in a loop at that time. A loop is a temporary state and isn't healthy. Remove your problem/issue and you should go back to being your old xNTJ self. 

Ne and Se users do look at the past and future sure but we are taking in all the present data and making decisions.

Se users take in present physical data and then using Ni make a quick gut (reading between the lines) decision. The lower our Ni usage the less gut we use and possibly a poorer decision. 

Ne users take in present data as well but they are looking at the bigger picture with many possible outcomes. I think the data that Ne takes in is more verbal cues then body language (land of Se). The better used their Si the more data they have stored in their brain.

While both present, the Ne users take a longer time to make decisions due to their analysis.


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## Staryu

TreeBob said:


> If we assume that type statistics are correct or even close then xNTJ are rare. Now assume a portion of them are "stuck" in a loop. That would make them quite rare. To type ENTJ on a test you could not have been in a loop at that time. A loop is a temporary state and isn't healthy. Remove your problem/issue and you should go back to being your old xNTJ self.
> 
> Ne and Se users do look at the past and future sure but we are taking in all the present data and making decisions.
> 
> Se users take in present physical data and then using Ni make a quick gut (reading between the lines) decision. The lower our Ni usage the less gut we use and possibly a poorer decision.
> 
> Ne users take in present data as well but they are looking at the bigger picture with many possible outcomes. I think the data that Ne takes in is more verbal cues then body language (land of Se). The better used their Si the more data they have stored in their brain.
> 
> While both present, the Ne users take a longer time to make decisions due to their analysis.


er..im a wee bit indecisive._. and take forever to decide on something.
but i always do a CB analysis for any major decision i have to do. i don't trust gut feelings.


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## punky16

Staryu said:


> lol, some NTs care about spelling. for me i don't care, all i care about is the content and what you are saying. that's y i write lk this, it's faster & gets the msg across. screw spelling ^_^
> hmm, good point about the ESFP versus the INTJ. what i am confused about though, is do all NTs like academic stuff and learning? I certainly don't, I get bored of talking and would much rather DO things. I also learn best hands-on, and I think I might have mistyped myself NT, when in reality I'm SP. I also don't really care about intelligence unless it achieves practical results.
> I was wondering though..what would some of the key differences between NT and SP be?
> obviously SPs are more present-oriented, but NTs can be so too, esp ENTJs for example what with the Te-Se loop.


ENTJ's tend to be more strategic and people smart than book smart. ENTP's and INTP's are typically book smart. I am not sure about INTJ's...I know they are strategic too but I asked my INTJ friend and he said that he wouldn't say he loves learning...but he said he is a fanatic about things that interest him like DragonBall Z, wrestling, and music. He memorizes the band members names, the different instruments used, the genre, etc... He memorizes wrestling moves and DragonBallZ characters, history, folklore behind it, the artist himself, the character's attacks, etc... but he said that it would go back to which of the 8 multiple intelligences you use: music smart, book smart, people smart, self smart, body smart, visual spatial smart, nature smart, and logical mathematical smart. So if you apply learning to any one of those and enjoy doing it then you could be an NT. I would think ENTJ's would be people smart the most.


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## The Exception

According to Linda Berens:

SP: More pragmatic than affiliative, more concrete than abstract, focus of attention more on what motivates people than how something is structured

NT: more pragmatic than affiliative, more abstract, more inclined to be focused on how something is structured 


Keirsey in his Please Understand Me book talks about how NTs have a core need for competency. An NT will perform with the intention of becoming more competent at something. For an NT, mastery is the end and performance is the means. Keirsey also says that SP is the mirror image of NT with respect to performance and competency. An SP just wants enough competency to be able to perform, to do what they love. They are not particularly interested in competency for its own sake like NTs are.

I think to SP types, NTs can appear rather serious and boring. Some NTs will spend time on things that aren't exactly fun or enjoyable in the present moment if they anticipate a future reward of achieving mastery. To an SP, that mindset is backwards. And I'm sure NTs think the SP way is kind of backwards- to just mindlessly perform and not care about mastery (although SPs are known as virtuosos, especially in the arts, because they practice so much out of fun).


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## Staryu

Dementia in Absentia said:


> According to Linda Berens:
> 
> SP: More pragmatic than affiliative, more concrete than abstract, focus of attention more on what motivates people than how something is structured
> 
> NT: more pragmatic than affiliative, more abstract, more inclined to be focused on how something is structured
> 
> 
> Keirsey in his Please Understand Me book talks about how NTs have a core need for competency. An NT will perform with the intention of becoming more competent at something. For an NT, mastery is the end and performance is the means. Keirsey also says that SP is the mirror image of NT with respect to performance and competency. An SP just wants enough competency to be able to perform, to do what they love. They are not particularly interested in competency for its own sake like NTs are.
> 
> I think to SP types, NTs can appear rather serious and boring. Some NTs will spend time on things that aren't exactly fun or enjoyable in the present moment if they anticipate a future reward of achieving mastery. To an SP, that mindset is backwards. And I'm sure NTs think the SP way is kind of backwards- to just mindlessly perform and not care about mastery (although SPs are known as virtuosos, especially in the arts, because they practice so much out of fun).


Thankyouu;; I was looking for something along these lines!:happy:


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## TreeBob

Staryu said:


> Thankyouu;; I was looking for something along these lines!:happy:


I really don't understand why you were looking for something like this. I am not being insulting to anyone who made comments, it is just that what she said is very general and well wrong (kind of). 

SPs are not "known as virtuosos, especially in the arts, because they practice so much out of fun". SFP maybe. The thinker SPs as far as I know are not practicing instruments or writing poems or music (correct me if I am wrong STPs). 



> SP: More pragmatic than affiliative, more concrete than abstract, focus of attention more on what motivates people than how something is structured
> 
> NT: more pragmatic than affiliative, more abstract, more inclined to be focused on how something is structured


Why is that SP description not SJ? Why can't it be ST? Why can't the NT be for NF as well? Why am I the only person on this forum who sees flaws in NT/NF ?


> I think to SP types, NTs can appear rather serious and boring. Some NTs will spend time on things that aren't exactly fun or enjoyable in the present moment if they anticipate a future reward of achieving mastery. To an SP, that mindset is backwards. And I'm sure NTs think the SP way is kind of backwards- to just mindlessly perform and not care about mastery (although SPs are known as virtuosos, especially in the arts, because they practice so much out of fun).


Who would ever accuse an ENTP of being serious and boring? I can see NTJ being called that at times. As an SP I will only participate in theory if I see some future reward in mastering it. NTJ will read theories because they have a driving need to know why. NTP might read a theory because i think they like to consider all the different possibilities. I think you are confusing SP with SJ. SJ may mindlessly perform tasks. Many judgers do tasks because their values tell them that they are necessary. 

There is more I want to say but I am straying.


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## Staryu

TreeBob said:


> I really don't understand why you were looking for something like this. I am not being insulting to anyone who made comments, it is just that what she said is very general and well wrong (kind of).
> 
> SPs are not "known as virtuosos, especially in the arts, because they practice so much out of fun". SFP maybe. The thinker SPs as far as I know are not practicing instruments or writing poems or music (correct me if I am wrong STPs).
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that SP description not SJ? Why can't it be ST? Why can't the NT be for NF as well? Why am I the only person on this forum who sees flaws in NT/NF ?
> 
> 
> Who would ever accuse an ENTP of being serious and boring? I can see NTJ being called that at times. As an SP I will only participate in theory if I see some future reward in mastering it. NTJ will read theories because they have a driving need to know why. NTP might read a theory because i think they like to consider all the different possibilities. I think you are confusing SP with SJ. SJ may mindlessly perform tasks. Many judgers do tasks because their values tell them that they are necessary.
> 
> There is more I want to say but I am straying.


oh well what i meant was a description..i didn't realize that it was general and very wrong. i basically wanted a temperament decription, but ur right, the SP description given above can be applied to any temperament. 
i don't know, but you're right about the NT/NF..sometimes i feel like i relate more to other NJs than NTs in general. 
well i guess ENTJs, for example, will read a theory if it can be applied to practical use..i think that's Te versus Ti. NTPs though, with the Ti might read it because they want to know why. 
thanks


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## TreeBob

Staryu said:


> oh well what i meant was a description..i didn't realize that it was general and very wrong. i basically wanted a temperament decription, but ur right, the SP description given above can be applied to any temperament.
> i don't know, but you're right about the NT/NF..sometimes i feel like i relate more to other NJs than NTs in general.
> well i guess ENTJs, for example, will read a theory if it can be applied to practical use..i think that's Te versus Ti. NTPs though, with the Ti might read it because they want to know why.
> thanks


Now you are on the right track Staryu! You should relate more to NJ over NT.


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## nevermore

Staryu said:


> oh well what i meant was a description..i didn't realize that it was general and very wrong. i basically wanted a temperament decription, but ur right, the SP description given above can be applied to any temperament.
> i don't know, but you're right about the NT/NF..sometimes i feel like i relate more to other NJs than NTs in general.
> well i guess ENTJs, for example, will read a theory if it can be applied to practical use..i think that's Te versus Ti. NTPs though, with the Ti might read it because they want to know why.
> thanks


Yeah the NT/NF divisions are really just one way of doing it. I have to admit I relate more to NP's a lot of the time, though personally I actually do relate to NT's in general a lot. At times, I even relate to TP's, but less often. I think people tend to relate more through the perceiving function than the judging one because it is shared language, even if they are judging dominant like me (just in my experience).

I think there is a lot of truth to K's insights (like the competency need...so true...I don't think we do things_ to_ be competent at them though, we do them out of passion like everyone else, but if we can't possibly _be_ competent at them we give up...the idea of doing something "just for fun" is not enough to sustain us and to be honest seems a little pointless to our subconscious, depending on what sort of thing it is of course). But he just chose one way of dividing up the types. There are lots of ways of doing it and they are all appropriate under different circumstances.


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## Mutatio NOmenis

SP's are the NT's who never grew up past age 6. I half kid.


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