# Any backing for the Enneagram?



## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

Does anyone have any speculations as to why the enneagram works? I don't exclusively refer to the types but the placement of their respective wings and the arrows of desintegration/integration. It read it comes from Christianity, but I think it's has since deviated from it. Also the bulk of members here don't strike me as a dogmatic bunch, so what do you base the plausibility of this system on?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I think the accuracy of the Enneagram types comes mainly from Claudio Naranjo's understanding of personality and psychology. From the foreword of his book _Character and Neurosis_:



> I could say that the enneagram of the Sarmouni acted as a magnet in my mind to bring together the pieces of psychological lore that, until then, were separate, an organizing catalytic factor causing the relative chaos of the information to come into a more precise pattern.


It's been said that Ichazo was the father of the Enneagram types and Naranjo the mother in the sense that Ichazo planted the seed from which Naranjo gave birth to the types.


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## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

enneathusiast said:


> I think the accuracy of the Enneagram types comes mainly from Claudio Naranjo's understanding of personality and psychology. From the foreword of his book _Character and Neurosis_:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been said that Ichazo was the father of the Enneagram types and Naranjo the mother in the sense that Ichazo planted the seed from which Naranjo gave birth to the types.


Would this mean that since it is lore, that the enneagram is derived from fiction? Or does it mean that Ichazo or Naranjo tapped into some collective unconscious to derive the patterns?


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## Snow (Oct 19, 2010)

All personality tests just take trends and stereotypes, then pool them into categories. While they aren't sciences, they work because they the stereotypes exist.

It really is _that simple_, but some people jump up and down exclaiming "it's not science it's not science!!!" It's truly irrelevant though; the stereotypes exist. _Most_ people fall into the various categories that are defined in the various personality typing.


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## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

It only works if you make it work for yourself.


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## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

So none of you believe that there is any backing other than stereotypical sketching of each persona? That the assignment of placement for each persona to their number is nothing more than arbitrary fancy? Is saying you are an 7w1 just as valid as anything other wing combination?


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## Blystone (Oct 11, 2012)

Humaning said:


> Is saying you are an 7w1 just as valid as anything other wing combination?


In accordance with the internal structure of wing theory, no.


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

7w1 said:


> Let's party, but in proper way!


My opinion is, that you can't have wings of types this far away. Maximum distance I find acceptable is two types, but even that seems as crazy to some people (because it covers 4 of 8 other types). 'Subwings' is the keyword you want to search for.

The basis on which it was created? I don't know, and I don't want to know... last thing I'd want is thousands years old drawing ruling my religious life. Book maybe, but drawing is too much...

It seems to have it's internal logic, which works for it, and it works for me. Not that I was able to type everybody I came in contact with, but it... seems legit I guess.

But in my opinion wings seem unnecessary, and instinctual variants completly out of the place.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

darude11 said:


> My opinion is, that you can't have wings of types this far away.


The whole image of a wing is both sides. Like for type seven. *-*7*- *the *-* would be the wing. 7w1 :laughing:


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## Hartbits (Jul 17, 2013)

The enneagram actually has been through some tests for scientific accuracy, and is going pretty well on that.

Scientific Proof for the Enneagram

The Enneagram is currently in the stages of scientific accredidation. It has passed its first stage with flying colors. [link] One of the scientific explanations for the Enneagram personality theory is that personalities and healthiness are based on the ratio of three different mood-altering chemicals in the body: Dopamine, Serotonin, and Norepinepherine. (See article. [link])Dopamine increases physical endurance or drive. Serotonin increases psychological well being. Norepinepherine increases mental drive and focused thinking, although it also increases stress (you think about it even when you're trying not to).

*TYPE
*
Serotonin
(Mood)

Norepinephrin
(Stress)

Dopamine
(Drive)

Eight

Low

_Reactive_
Low

_Gut Triad_




High

_Assertive_

Nine

High

_Positive Outlook_
Low

_Gut__ Triad_
Low

_Withdrawn_
One

Neutral

_Competency_
Low

_Gut__ Triad_
Neutral

_Compliant_
Two

High

_Positive Outlook_
Neutral

_Heart__ Triad_
Neutral

_Compliant_
Three

Neutral

_Competency_
Neutral

_Heart__ Triad_
High

_Assertive_
Four

Low

_Reactive_
Neutral

_Heart__ Triad_
Low

_Withdrawn_
Five

Neutral

_Competency_
High

_Head__ Triad_

Low

_Withdrawn_
Six

Low

_Reactive_
High

_Head__ Triad_
Neutral

_Compliant_
Seven

High

_Positive Outlook_
High

_Head__ Triad_
High

_Assertive_


Norepinephrine corresponds to the basic triad groups (Head, Heart, and Gut, a.k.a. Thinking, Feeling, and Instinctual).


High Norepinepherin = Head Triad (5, 6, and 7). High anxiety, a restless mind, high-strung and over-stimulated.
Med Norepinepherin = Heart Triad (2, 3, and 4). Some anxiety, good arousal level, stimulated but not restless.
Low Norepinepherin = Instinctual Triad (8, 9, and 1). Low anxiety, deliberate thinking.
Dopamine corresponds to the Hornevian Triads (Assertive, Compliant, and Passive [a.k.a. Withdrawn]; more on these triads can be found here.)

High Dopamine = Assertive group (3, 7, & 8). Have a lot of energy and drive. High confidence, energy, drive, and endurance.
Med Dopamine = Compliant group (1, 2 & 6). Medium confidence, adequate drive, energy, & endurance.
Low Dopamine* = *Passive group (4, 5, & 9). Low confidence, drive, energy, & endurance.
Serotonin corresponds to the Harmonic System (Positive Outlook, Competency, and Reactive [a.k.a. Frustration]).

High Serotonin = Positive outlook group (7, 9, & 2). Generally has an upbeat outlook on life. High sense of well-being. Content calm & happy.
Med Serotonin = Competency group (1, 3, & 5). Have a stable mood and a neutral sense of well-being.
Low Serotonin = Reactive group (4, 6, & 8). Have a low sense of well-being, being reactive, moody, and aggressive.
Healthiness can be determined by changes in the ratio of one chemical to another. Ideally, you want to have a ratio of high Serotonin to low Norepinepherin to high Dopamine.


High levels of Serotonin = high sense of well-being, being content, calm, and happy.
Low levels of Norepinephrin = low anxiety, having deliberate, rather than automatic, thinking processes.
High levels of Dopamine = high confidence, energy drive, and endurance.
Things like wings and disintegrating are a result of changes in the usual balance of these chemicals as well. Integration may well be a result of manipulating the chemicals. Medication, food, music, exercise, meditation, and other activities that naturally increase Serotonin and Dopamine levels may help establish a more balanced ratio, eventually helping people move towards psychological balance and integration, with healthier thinking patterns and views about their lives.​Source: The Enneagram Blogspot: Scientific Proof for the Enneagram
Links in the article: The Enneagram Institute: Research
The Enneagram and Brain Chemistry

So yeah, the enneagram can be backed scientifically, and it makes so much sense!


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## Tharwen (Mar 20, 2013)

rap music clearly proves the existence of enneagram. if you listen closely enough, you will get sudden flashes of insight.


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## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

Hartbits said:


> The enneagram actually has been through some tests for scientific accuracy, and is going pretty well on that.
> 
> Scientific Proof for the Enneagram
> 
> ...


Now this is very interesting!
It makes intuitive sense to me. However, perhaps this shows that not all possible general archetypes are being represented. There are 27 possibilities, of each only nine are described. Within the parameters of this research, the enneagramm is very incomplete.


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## Hartbits (Jul 17, 2013)

Humaning said:


> Now this is very interesting!
> It makes intuitive sense to me. However, perhaps this shows that not all possible general archetypes are being represented. There are 27 possibilities, of each only nine are described. Within the parameters of this research, the enneagramm is very incomplete.


Maybe the wings are determined by different hormones or other substances in our body? Maybe there are no such things as wings and they are just a convention? I really don't know. I'll just wait for the results of more researches, I hope they are able to explain things in more detail, like instinctual variants (maybe the amount of sexual hormones?). It may take some time, the enneagram is still new to science.


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## All in Twilight (Oct 12, 2012)

Humaning said:


> Would this mean that since it is lore, that the enneagram is derived from fiction? Or does it mean that Ichazo or Naranjo tapped into some collective unconscious to derive the patterns?


Ichazo had a conversation about Enneagram with Metatron the Archangel. I don't know Metatron and I think it's just superstitious nonsense. So there we can't find the answer. I take pleasure in theorizing about it. Really, for me it's just pleasure and a lot of fun. And sometimes I do find a patterns that are interesting (which leads to stereotyping and simplifying though) but I don't want to depend on it or to become something based on what enneagram tells me.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm starting to wonder if the enneagram is one of those systems that doesn't work or even make sense until you've been molded into one of the types out of pure will to have a type.


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## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I'm starting to wonder if the enneagram is one of those systems that doesn't work or even make sense until you've been molded into one of the types out of pure will to have a type.


I have often suspected as much


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

Humaning said:


> Does anyone have any speculations as to why the enneagram works? I don't exclusively refer to the types but the placement of their respective wings and the arrows of desintegration/integration. It read it comes from Christianity, but I think it's has since deviated from it. Also the bulk of members here don't strike me as a dogmatic bunch, so what do you base the plausibility of this system on?


http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...157-temperaments-enneagram-2.html#post3940330

My attempt at explaining the Enneagram with the chemicals mentioned in this thread before.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I base my own personal acceptance of it on years of observations--it really does seem to work. I suddenly understand where people are coming from.

I tend to see influences of both wings in the people I've studied. Connecting points are sketchy, and there's no real agreement about their precise role in the community anyway. I don't care if they've scientifically proven it; it works for me.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

If you think the enneagram works for you, and if you think it describes you accurately, then its "right" and it can help you. That's the only proof that's needed, for you. As to whether you think it works for everybody always, thats a bigger fish to fry. 
But I love that you are questioning it, because you should question everything, and not enough questioning goes on around here....


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

darude11 said:


> My opinion is, that you can't have wings of types this far away. Maximum distance I find acceptable is two types, but even that seems as crazy to some people (because it covers 4 of 8 other types). 'Subwings' is the keyword you want to search for.


Its technically possible to have such behavior when you use the tritype- e.g. the 137- "Let's party, but in an orderly way!" 

The unity of type 1 (order) and 7 (impulse) seems rather contradictory though, similar to the unity of 4 (emotion) and 5 (logic)


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