# The World Is Becoming Even More Sensing and Feeling



## Strelnikov (Jan 19, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> As titled, and I sincerely believe I don't have to provide detailed proofs on it.
> 
> Suffice to say that the culture we are living in now, globally, is getting even more and more dominated with sensing and feeling cultural dogmas such as; live the presence, experience the now, be yourself, express it, no holds barred, unleash all, indulge yourself, come out and play, let it go, living on a fast lane, ... (fill in the blanks), etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> ...


You are right in some respects, but consider the rise of... nerd culture, which would be associated with NTs. I, an NT type honestly don't like this trend. I think there is too much talk about superheroes in pop culture. I, for one, don't watch stuff like that, I think it's childish. The result is an infantilised audience who takes Marvel vs DC discussions way more seriously than they should. I mean, it's just entertainment. People shouldn't conflate superheroes and real-life politics and social issues. We've reached a situation where, from what I've heard one of the stars of Solo received threats and was insulted... Something-Tran is her name (I don't remember exactly)... I mean those people doing these things should stop living in fairy-tale worlds and get a life. Considering this, wouldn't you say there is an NT-fication of society? I think each personality type has it's own imprint on the world, some more than others.


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## Hurricane Matthew (Nov 9, 2012)

1nquisitor said:


> You are right in some respects, but consider the rise of... nerd culture, which would be associated with NTs. I, an NT type honestly don't like this trend. I think there is too much talk about superheroes in pop culture. I, for one, don't watch stuff like that, I think it's childish. The result is an infantilised audience who takes Marvel vs DC discussions way more seriously than they should. I mean, it's just entertainment. People shouldn't conflate superheroes and real-life politics and social issues. We've reached a situation where, from what I've heard one of the stars of Solo received threats and was insulted... Something-Tran is her name (I don't remember exactly)... I mean those people doing these things should stop living in fairy-tale worlds and get a life. Considering this, wouldn't you say there is an NT-fication of society? I think each personality type has it's own imprint on the world, some more than others.


I think the rise of this type of nerd culture has more to do with Millennials and the internet than it does MBTI. While "nerd culture" goes back decades, most nerds back in the day were a lot more isolated and knew less people who were into the same stuff as them, but like with a lot of things since the rise of the internet, entertainment popularity spreads like wildfire. I'm not personally into superhero stuff, but from what I've heard, the recent trends with Marvel in particular as well as the newer Star Wars movies have more catering towards SJW themes, which is largely a Millennial mindset, thus the attempt at connecting superheroes to real life themes.

I agree that people are taking these works of entertainment far too seriously and to a childish level, though. I'm technically part of nerd subcultures because I do art in the anime/manga style and play a few video games ((I don't consider myself a gamer, though)), but I definitely have plenty of moments where I find a lot of cringe among my peers, especially ones who are far more "hardcore" and less casual ((which strangely, being a casual is often looked down upon in nerd fandoms)).

I've heard about the actress being sent death threats, too... it's disgusting honestly, and it's like people can't separate what's on their TV from real life. A big part of this may as well be that people are spending too much time staring at screens than having real hobbies anymore. I know plenty of people who spend _hours_ every day on watching TV/movies/anime or playing incredible numbers of hours on video games. These things aren't inherently bad but people are spending so much time on these things, they forget what the real world is like. I also notice a large number of Millennials I meet have odd, unreasonable fears about going outside at night, going into the wilderness, going to rural areas or in some cases even walking down their own street. My own brother ((an ISTJ)) literally has a daily schedule of going to work, coming home to play video games and watch anime, then go to bed, and that's all there is. Every day. Him and his otaku friends spend a fortune on more and more merchandise, including very expensive figurines of characters. Many of my friends and acquaintances ((all of which are Millennials with a variety of MBTI types represented)) are somewhere within the nerd sphere and there is a massive obsession with entertainment that I can't understand. They even define their interests by what shows, movies or video games they like best rather than... _actual_ hobbies. I tend not to fit in a whole lot with them since my list of anime/manga/video games I'm into is extremely short in comparison to theirs and I'd rather watch a history documentary than watch a movie >.>

The internet has definitely made nerd culture more widespread and even mainstream now. Superhero movies nowadays are all the big blockbusters. The funny thing is... I know an old Baby Boomer nerd who has been part of nerd culture since before she was even in college and the new stuff doesn't appeal to her much. She also doesn't seem too pleased about nerd culture becoming more mainstream. Whenever something becomes mainstream, there are obvious benefits to fans, like more releases and easier access, but then it also attracts all the ilk of the general population, too, such as those who send death threats to actors. Perhaps this has nothing to do with nerd culture specifically or MBTI or even generation, but the nature of people when something becomes popular and everyone wants in on it. A lot of groupthink and mob mentality happens with anything that gains large popularity.

That's my take on it anyway.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Hurricane Matthew said:


> I think the rise of this type of nerd culture has more to do with Millennials and the internet than it does MBTI. While "nerd culture" goes back decades, most nerds back in the day were a lot more isolated and knew less people who were into the same stuff as them, but like with a lot of things since the rise of the internet, entertainment popularity spreads like wildfire. I'm not personally into superhero stuff, but from what I've heard, the recent trends with Marvel in particular as well as the newer Star Wars movies have more catering towards SJW themes, which is largely a Millennial mindset, thus the attempt at connecting superheroes to real life themes.
> 
> I agree that people are taking these works of entertainment far too seriously and to a childish level, though. I'm technically part of nerd subcultures because I do art in the anime/manga style and play a few video games ((I don't consider myself a gamer, though)), but I definitely have plenty of moments where I find a lot of cringe among my peers, especially ones who are far more "hardcore" and less casual ((which strangely, being a casual is often looked down upon in nerd fandoms)).
> 
> That's my take on it anyway.


NT are the original nerds, the trekkies, the original internet warrior, the original comiconers, the original computer gamers, the original mangaers, the weirdos, etc, far before they became mainstream. While the phenomenon you mention is infact a counter-nerd culture where sensors and feelers invade spaces where in the past occupied by mostly NTs. That's why some of them NT are currently withdrawing from such activities, like you did because it is simply does not 'feel' the same anymore. Just another proof.


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

contradictionary said:


> I'm sorry, i kinda lost at 'less sensing - culturally speaking'. Would you mind to elaborate?


Sure. I meant on societal level, self-education and interest in theoretical subjects is highly encouraged, as opposed to actual cognitive functions that vary between individuals. For instance, I've seen posts that globally personified America as ExTJ and Switzerland as INFJ. 



contradictionary said:


> And humanistic need a degree of utilitarian rational objective view to serve the best interests of all, rather than to serve some 'elites' who feels as if they are victims.


Very true. "Touchy-feely" describes it well enough.


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## Strelnikov (Jan 19, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> NT are the original nerds, the trekkies, the original internet warrior, the original comiconers, the original computer gamers, the original mangaers, the weirdos, etc, far before they became mainstream. While the phenomenon you mention is infact a counter-nerd culture where sensors and feelers invade spaces where in the past occupied by mostly NTs. That's why some of them NT are currently withdrawing from such activities, like you did because it is simply does not 'feel' the same anymore. Just another proof.


I was thinking the same thing. As an NT myself, I honestly was never into these things, maybe when I was a kid (I watched cartoons and that was about it). I only saw 2 Star Trek episodes ever, I only saw the old Star Wars films. I do play games, like once per year I have a period when I feel like playing games, for about 1 month, then 11 months of nothing... I can live without them. I haven't seen any Lord of the Rings films, Harry Potter or any anime (I barely know what those are: Japanese cartoons from what I can tell). I watch Game of Thrones and I have read the books the show is based on, but other than that I feel absolutely no passion for Sci-Fi or... what do you call it... fantasy (I had to actually search online what it is called). I find real-life history way more interesting as a story. Furthermore, it tells me something about how the real-world works. I don't know why anyone would like to live in an imaginary world so much of the time. Sure, it's ok to escape every now and then... But people should be more focused on real life.

Regarding the SJW orientation of new films, I think that makes them worse. I don't like it when films try to push a political agenda on me, it seems like the writers and producers are trying to brainwash me. A film should make me think, not tell me what to think.


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## Restless Thinker (Apr 23, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> As titled, and I sincerely believe I don't have to provide detailed proofs on it.
> 
> Suffice to say that the culture we are living in now, globally, is getting even more and more dominated with sensing and feeling cultural dogmas such as; live the presence, experience the now, be yourself, express it, no holds barred, unleash all, indulge yourself, come out and play, let it go, living on a fast lane, ... (fill in the blanks), etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> ...


How big of a time frame are you referencing?

Is it over the last 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, between now and just when the internet was becoming mainstream (or created), or even further back up until now?

It would help me provide a better reply to your OP.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Hero Within said:


> How big of a time frame are you referencing?
> 
> Is it over the last 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, between now and just when the internet was becoming mainstream (or created), or even further back up until now?
> 
> It would help me provide a better reply to your OP.


With the stress on the phrase of 'even more' i would say around last 2 decades. Began in the 90's.


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## Restless Thinker (Apr 23, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> With the stress on the phrase of 'even more' i would say around last 2 decades. Began in the 90's.


Right around the time the internet was increasing in accessibility and popularity up until the present, as I thought. 

As a really quick "knee-jerk" answer for now: 

1. Technological breakthroughs making work easier, displacing tougher labor, and even doing the thinking for us in some cases. 

2. The overall increase in quality of life for even some of the poorest people in wealthier/more powerful nations (relative to the past)

3. The incredible speed and access to the sharing of information/ideas/etc that otherwise would not be possible without the internet.

4. Fatherless children and the overall feminization of many developed nations.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

contradictionary said:


> As titled, and I sincerely believe I don't have to provide detailed proofs on it.
> 
> Suffice to say that the culture we are living in now, globally, is getting even more and more dominated with sensing and feeling cultural dogmas such as; live the presence, experience the now, be yourself, express it, no holds barred, unleash all, indulge yourself, come out and play, let it go, living on a fast lane, ... (fill in the blanks), etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> ...


I do agree that feeling seems to be making a big come-back from the romantic era. Maybe it's just my exposure to Western politics, but I get the same impression from Far Eastern politics as well, whenever I ask questions of my online buddies from China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. It seems the trend all over the globe is toward progressivism and liberalism, but it also seems like even conservatives are becoming much more "feeler" these days than thinker. Just politics in general is getting really out of hand and turning into a massive shit-show all over the world.

However, I get the opposite impression when it comes to sensation types. Sensation types, statistically speaking, always outnumber intuition types by a very large margin, so that creates the illusion that they are taking over. Depending on your source, the typical percentage I see is something like 85% sensation types, 15% intuition types. That's fairly bleak for us intuition types, and in my anecdotal personal experience, it seems accurate. I'm way more surrounded by people telling me I'm "overthinking" things, who just want to take everything at face value, live day-to-day, and get caught up in the same bullshit over and over, and then wonder why. Meanwhile I'm watching from the side thinking, "man it would suck to be like that."

But, intuition types are on the rise because technology is rapidly evolving and both creativity and insight is needed to keep up with it. Sensation types are in a tough position right now, because they're about to get replaced by total automation. If they can't find novel ways of existing, pretty soon machine learning and artificial intelligence are going to straight-up make most sensation types obsolete. It's going to get really tough for them to find employment in the world to come. Meanwhile, I'll be sitting pretty with my fat paychecks and easy life building the very machines putting them out to pasture.

In any case, big changes on the horizon. Very big changes. If you thought the internet reshaped the face of mankind forever, get ready for deep learning neural nets that can be trained to do _anything_ better than humans, including empathy, music, artistic expression, and self-reflection. I'm personally involved in this field of research and I can tell you, whatever your time frame is for when you believe we are going to have human-level AI, shave a few years off of it, and then shave a few more. Hell, Google already has speech synthesis neural nets that have been trained so accurately they can replicate the human voice to a degree that is _completely indistinguishable_ from the real thing and thus passes the famous "Turing Test". They have a website set up where you can to A-B testing by listening to audio samples of both the target voice and the synthesized voice to see if you can tell the difference. Check it out sometime if you're interested.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

It seems like this thread is just blaming various issues by subjective perception as well as superficiality on SFs just because they're opposed to NT which in itself is very superficial. Sometimes NTs have their heads all the way up their asses


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Vaka said:


> It seems like this thread is just blaming various issues by subjective perception as well as superficiality on SFs just because they're opposed to NT which in itself is very superficial. Sometimes NTs have their heads all the way up their asses


I have my head superficially some way up my ass. Mind bending. Bizarre habit.

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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

contradictionary said:


> With the stress on the phrase of 'even more' i would say around last 2 decades. Began in the 90's.


Thoreau complained about consumerism and materialism in the 1880’s, another rather opulent period in the West (although without the flavor or disposability that we cherish).

I am not sure this broad of a generalization is very useful - the “compared to what” can take us very far into the weeds.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Abraxas said:


> I do agree that feeling seems to be making a big come-back from the romantic era. Maybe it's just my exposure to Western politics, but I get the same impression from Far Eastern politics as well, whenever I ask questions of my online buddies from China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. It seems the trend all over the globe is toward progressivism and liberalism, but it also seems like even conservatives are becoming much more "feeler" these days than thinker. Just politics in general is getting really out of hand and turning into a massive shit-show all over the world.
> 
> However, I get the opposite impression when it comes to sensation types. Sensation types, statistically speaking, always outnumber intuition types by a very large margin, so that creates the illusion that they are taking over. Depending on your source, the typical percentage I see is something like 85% sensation types, 15% intuition types. That's fairly bleak for us intuition types, and in my anecdotal personal experience, it seems accurate. I'm way more surrounded by people telling me I'm "overthinking" things, who just want to take everything at face value, live day-to-day, and get caught up in the same bullshit over and over, and then wonder why. Meanwhile I'm watching from the side thinking, "man it would suck to be like that."
> 
> ...





Abraxas said:


> I do agree that feeling seems to be making a big come-back from the romantic era. Maybe it's just my exposure to Western politics, but I get the same impression from Far Eastern politics as well, whenever I ask questions of my online buddies from China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. It seems the trend all over the globe is toward progressivism and liberalism, but it also seems like even conservatives are becoming much more "feeler" these days than thinker. Just politics in general is getting really out of hand and turning into a massive shit-show all over the world.
> 
> However, I get the opposite impression when it comes to sensation types. Sensation types, statistically speaking, always outnumber intuition types by a very large margin, so that creates the illusion that they are taking over. Depending on your source, the typical percentage I see is something like 85% sensation types, 15% intuition types. That's fairly bleak for us intuition types, and in my anecdotal personal experience, it seems accurate. I'm way more surrounded by people telling me I'm "overthinking" things, who just want to take everything at face value, live day-to-day, and get caught up in the same bullshit over and over, and then wonder why. Meanwhile I'm watching from the side thinking, "man it would suck to be like that."
> 
> ...


I guess we share the same starting point in viewing the society, the statistics. This world has always been an S/F world, there must be some variations and fluctuations but historical evidence show it's always the same case, more or less.

That's why i succinctly put 'even more' in the thread title. I don't see it shifting the other way like you said, not in T/F axis, not in the S/N axis. Even the AI development is more in understanding and profiling human traits to cater and expand more in S/F taste, requirement, behavior, even when the development is being done by mostly NT. To further expand materialism and consumerism. Hm...

As for the AI debacles between Google vs Facebook vs Tesla, i'd rather sided in the Elon's camp since AI can be as subjective as the person(s) or group(s) who created the algorithms and the neural networks. This is a dangerous god's game we are about to play with AI. We shall tread carefully.

Edit: changed SF into S/F

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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

The interesting thing is that people often see what they want to in the external even if they're not wholly aware of that. Or they see what supports their projections. But for now, I do hope the weather's nice


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

contradictionary said:


> Do you 'feel' it too? How are you, as NT, going to do about it since we are so deeply and complexly interconnected we cannot say we don't care or won't be affected at all? Is it normal evolution? Is it really required for progress? Mitigation? Solution?


 I have no issue with "sensing" dominating culture - nor an issue with sensors nor do I feel "pressured" or disturbed about/care how they choose to live. They do not prevent me from accomplishing what I want to do.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> I have my head superficially some way up my ass. Mind bending. Bizarre habit.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


Which head are we talking about here and you shouldn't be calling your wife a donkey. That's just mean.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

It is predominately both SF and ST, you just notice the first more cause it annoys you more.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Which head are we talking about here and you shouldn't be calling your wife a donkey. That's just mean.


Your gag may need too many intuition to associate the dots, mon ami. It is harder with this intermittent connection with my wifey here. I better watch my gag reflex. 

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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

DeadOutside said:


> "(school, office jobs, social settings where there are more I than E) to be oppressively geared towards introverts.


I've had both blue-collar jobs and white-collar jobs. No contest, white-collar jobs are the most social, Fe-intense settings. I really feel like it's not geared towards introverts at fucking all.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> It is predominately both SF and ST, you just notice the first more cause it annoys you more.


In just these two dichotomies:
70+% are S
60+% are F
I am not talking about the combinations.


Aside, please note that i mentioned "sensing" and "feeling". The verbs, not the nouns/persons. I always tried to be as concise and unambiguous as possible, albeit my limited english. Noone should take this personally, i am not saying you do, i just clarify once again. 

And i mean the ps part too. 

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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

JennyJukes said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH​​​​​​​​


We can add circle-jerking to the list of their "firsts" as well. :laughing:


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Well let's see....
> 
> https://personalitymax.com/personality-types/population-gender/
> _I wonder what could possibly cause this with 45% of the population being SJs.... How strange._
> ...


You discounted 33% SF from S population?

I have explained above and in op, this is nothing personal. Go back to op please.

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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

contradictionary said:


> You discounted 33% SF from S population?
> 
> I have explained above and in op, this is nothing personal. Go back to op please.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


Please explain how my response is personal? 

I'm showing that the majority of the population are SJs. Feeler or thinker. So it makes sense that the population would be influenced by what the majority are, right?


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

DeadOutside said:


> "(school, office jobs, social settings where there are more I than E) to be oppressively geared towards introverts. I feel people tend to be blind to where other people face oppression/discouragement and only tend to see where they themselves are the victim."
> 
> Cute how you call that "oppression" even though people just want you to focus on your work and be productive


I think ther are so many introverts that say "The world hates me and all introverts, society is geared towards extroverts" that they do not realize they start to become the oppressor they claim to hate.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

contradictionary said:


> NT are the original nerds, the trekkies, the original internet warrior, the original comiconers, the original computer gamers, the original mangaers, the weirdos, etc, far before they became mainstream. While the phenomenon you mention is infact a counter-nerd culture where sensors and feelers invade spaces where in the past occupied by mostly NTs. That's why some of them NT are currently withdrawing from such activities, like you did because it is simply does not 'feel' the same anymore. Just another proof.


Sounds like NTs were the original hipsters, lol. Oh lord.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Please explain how my response is personal?


'Blame'. 'Fi'. 



daleks_exterminate said:


> I'm showing that the majority of the population are SJs. Feeler or thinker. So it makes sense that the population would be influenced by what the majority are, right?


Too obvious to even worth re-mention. As i said, you can see it in the title, in the op, and i even already add explanation not too far above. Just read.

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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

contradictionary said:


> 'Blame'. 'Fi'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't blame Fi. I specifically said I know I have issues with it, but that's my own *personal* problem. That's why I'm not making "the world is more Fi" threads.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Lord Pixel said:


> Sounds like NTs were the original hipsters, lol. Oh lord.


Meet the original punk bastard who created your universe. He is 'the god'. The hipster. The napster. The prankster. Worship him.
















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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

> The World Is Becoming Even More Sensing and Feeling


The world is not becoming more sensory. People are awakening everywhere. Massive spiritual awakenings are taking place everywhere. Ecology. Care for the planet. Physical exercise. Healthy food. Life coaches. Yoga. Spiritual teachers. People are *tired* of being dumbed down by McDonalds, TV and crap politicians. 
_[This means from S ---> N]_

One could say that the world is moving away from an ignorant paradigm of overthought into a paradigm of feeling. We tried Niezsche, didn't work. We tried Freud, didn't work. We tried to rely 666% on our rational mind, didn't work, we didn't become happier. We tried managing companies and careers 666% based on profit maximizing, didn't work, we didn't become happier. It's no longer about companies achieving maximum profits, its about employee well being and diversity. It's about family and friends. Meaningful relationships, love. 
_[This means from T ---> F]_

In essence: Moving from somewhat ST towards more of NF.

_[There is a spiritually enlightened way to exercise Thinking, but that's a topic beyond this thread]_


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

The world is always asking us for something that we do not have or cannot give or find hard to give. You can probably see a topic like this in each type's subform and see them say the world is becoming more *insert traits I do not recognize strongly in myself*. Life seems to pressure all of us to become something we are not, and these pressures can easily make us think the world around us is in opposition to us.

I will I agree though that I see quite a bit of "Live in the moment" "Own who you are" "follow your passion" and a bunch of PC liberal progressive things floating around. But I also see "Hard work!" "Overcome obstacles!" "Be a champion!" all over the place, this probably wouldn't be anything out of the norm for those who exhibit those traits as they would see those things as the norm. I'm not sure the world is becoming any kind of way it's just the internet gives voice to many different perspectives now and not only the profitable ones promoted by those in business or power.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

TB_Wisdom said:


> The world is not becoming more sensory. People are awakening everywhere. Massive spiritual awakenings are taking place everywhere. Ecology. Care for the planet. Physical exercise. Healthy food. Life coaches. Yoga. Spiritual teachers. People are *tired* of being dumbed down by McDonalds, TV and crap politicians.
> _[This means from S ---> N]_
> 
> One could say that the world is moving away from an ignorant paradigm of overthought into a paradigm of feeling. We tried Niezsche, didn't work. We tried Freud, didn't work. We tried to rely 666% on our rational mind, didn't work, we didn't become happier. We tried managing companies and careers 666% based on profit maximizing, didn't work, we didn't become happier. It's no longer about companies achieving maximum profits, its about employee well being and diversity. It's about family and friends. Meaningful relationships, love.
> ...


You are definitely 3-4 steps ahead, dude. I am with you in there but bear with this first, would you.

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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

contradictionary said:


> You are definitely 3-4 steps ahead, dude. I am with you in there but bear with this first, would you.
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


I don't know where I was when I wrote that. Probably somewhere in the clouds.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Lord Pixel said:


> The world is always asking us for something that we do not have or cannot give or find hard to give. You can probably see a topic like this in each type's subform and see them say the world is becoming more *insert traits I do not recognize strongly in myself*. Life seems to pressure all of us to become something we are not, and these pressures can easily make us think the world around us is in opposition to us.
> 
> I will I agree though that I see quite a bit of "Live in the moment" "Own who you are" "follow your passion" and a bunch of PC liberal progressive things floating around. But I also see "Hard work!" "Overcome obstacles!" "Be a champion!" all over the place, this probably wouldn't be anything out of the norm for those who exhibit those traits as they would see those things as the norm. I'm not sure the world is becoming any kind of way it's just the internet gives voice to many different perspectives now and not only the profitable ones promoted by those in business or power.


Nope. I mean, no, this is not about me. And no it doesn't affect me much at all. 

I always knew rhe world as it is always the case from forever, i am just noticing a shifting trend, even more. 

This is only an exploration thread, the mind exercise thread, not the venting/ranting thread. For specific audience. But i can't really forbid anyone to do so if they so insists, even NT still have F and S in their stacks anyway.



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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

TB_Wisdom said:


> I don't know where I was when I wrote that. Probably somewhere in the clouds.


There will always threshold level for any parameter in the graph before we can meet the inflection point.

We are not yet there but you've seen far after inflection, in the cloud. What are you? Drunk hipster?

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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

contradictionary said:


> There will always threshold level for any parameter in the graph before we can meet the inflection point.


Lots of INTJs feel compelled to talk like that but there is no data nor model thus no regression, no parameters and no graphs. Only speculation. I speculate. You speculate. We all speculate.


contradictionary said:


> What are you? Drunk hipster?
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


I know. Ni's are usually labelled "crazy" by other types
I am this or that label, that's fine
The last sentence in my signature =)


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

contradictionary said:


> Meet the original punk bastard who created your universe. He is 'the god'. The hipster. The napster. The prankster. Worship him.


That's incredibly corny. Which makes it ironically credible. High five.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

TB_Wisdom said:


> The world is not becoming more sensory. People are awakening everywhere. Massive spiritual awakenings are taking place everywhere. Ecology. Care for the planet. Physical exercise. Healthy food. Life coaches. Yoga. Spiritual teachers. People are *tired* of being dumbed down by McDonalds, TV and crap politicians.
> _[This means from S ---> N]_
> 
> One could say that the world is moving away from an ignorant paradigm of overthought into a paradigm of feeling. We tried Niezsche, didn't work. We tried Freud, didn't work. We tried to rely 666% on our rational mind, didn't work, we didn't become happier. We tried managing companies and careers 666% based on profit maximizing, didn't work, we didn't become happier. It's no longer about companies achieving maximum profits, its about employee well being and diversity. It's about family and friends. Meaningful relationships, love.
> ...


Although I'm impressed by your ability to express my opinion this eloquently, I now have to puke at the delusional thought of Fe forced diversity without considering Ni implications of it.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)




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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

daleks_exterminate said:


> I didn't blame Fi. I specifically said I know I have issues with it, but that's my own *personal* problem. That's why I'm not making "the world is more Fi" threads.


Mind my period between them. You said 'blaming bla bla bla', i don't feel i did. At all. Not the person(s), the very least.

Otoh, if you could provide some clue that the world had become _specifically_ more Fi, we could entertain that in the discussion here. No problem.

Sent using Tapatalk


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Although I'm impressed by your ability to express my opinion this eloquently, I now have to puke at the delusional thought of Fe forced diversity without considering Ni implications of it.


The point does not belong to you or me or anyone else. The spiritual awakening that I'm speaking (my version) about is a reality that millions of people are seeing all over the world. This event is even prophesied thousands of years ago in scripture. Google _"when the sun shall rise from the west"._ I simply expressed my version of it. Look at my Avatar.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> It is not your point, it does not belong to you. Nor does it belong to me. This is a reality that millions of people are seeing all over the world. This event is even prophesied thoudsands of years ago in scripture. Google _"when the sun shall rise from the west"._ I simply expressed my version of it. What do you think my Avatar is symbolizing?


It's not his point anyway, cause he talked about the world becoming more INFP because people are on their phone & in their heads more :laughing:

not sure I agree that it's a good thing to become more spiritual, in a deluded way tho... and I don't think caring for the environment, and all that, getting the big picture basically, is spiritual, seems more rational to me. But maybe that's just how we define things, I mean spiritual in the metaphysical sense.


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> It's not his point anyway, cause he talked about the world becoming more INFP because people are on their phone & in their heads more :laughing:
> 
> not sure I agree that it's a good thing to become more spiritual, in a deluded way tho... and I don't think caring for the environment, and all that, getting the big picture basically, is spiritual, seems more rational to me. But maybe that's just how we define things, I mean spiritual in the metaphysical sense.


What does spiritual mean to you?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> What does spiritual mean to you?


Believing metaphysical - spiritual things. Like psychic stuff, reincarnation, angels, mysticism etc. 
I realize not everyone defines it this way, but I prefer it because there is a difference between religions and this type of spirituality that is important to distinguish, yet still relates to belief in metaphysical. 

The spirituality you speak of, I think, is basically seeing & understanding the 'big picture', which is what N is truly responsible for. What you call 'rational mind' I think is still S, or at least how S operates when it's a strong preference: it sees the current facts in front of it & sticks to a smaller bubble of 'now', hence rationalizing things like, ex: 'we must maintain things as they are, this is the RATIONAL thing to do'. They call it rational when it's not per se, it's just their perception working in this way. To be clear, I'm not saying no S people can look at the future and whatnot, I'm speaking in terms of averages & preferences, behaviors that are very noticeable when you are an N.


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> It's not his point anyway, cause he talked about the world becoming more INFP because people are on their phone & in their heads more :laughing:
> 
> not sure I agree that it's a good thing to become more spiritual, in a deluded way tho... and I don't think caring for the environment, and all that, getting the big picture basically, is spiritual, seems more rational to me. But maybe that's just how we define things, I mean spiritual in the metaphysical sense.


Sigh...

The world is filled with people becoming self-centered hippies. Aka, IxxP + xNFx. That's all there is to it. You were to suppose to figure that out yourself, but it seems you have demon thinking so now you have a beef with me for exposing it.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Sigh...
> 
> The world is filled with people becoming self-centered hippies. Aka, IxxP + xNFx. That's all there is to it. You were to suppose to figure that out yourself, but it seems you have demon thinking so now you have a beef with me for exposing it.


Or that's what you notice because IP and NF are opposites of your own attitude. Those preferences settle before adulthood, one can't just choose to be that, later on.
not to mention that culture changes depending on the country you live in 
your inability to explain your reasoning and diverting to passive aggressiveness with the other posts is on you, perhaps you should find a video to help you reflect on that instead


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> Or that's what you notice because IP and NF are opposites of your own attitude. Those preferences settle before adulthood, one can't just choose to be that, later on.
> not to mention that culture changes depending on the country you live in
> your inability to explain your reasoning and diverting to passive aggressiveness with the other posts is on you, perhaps you should find a video to help you reflect on that instead


Triggered.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Triggered.


that's what you wanted to believe to avoid answering from the very beginning, but to me it's pretty entertaining


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> that's what you wanted to believe to avoid answering from the very beginning, but to me it's pretty entertaining


Hey man, you believe what you want to believe. I'm not the one getting worked up over my own opinion of how I see things.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Hey man, you believe what you want to believe. I'm not the one getting worked up over my own opinion of how I see things.


trying to have a discussion is not getting 'worked up', this is a forum...


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> trying to have a discussion is not getting 'worked up', this is a forum...


Sure thing. Hey, did you ever get around giving me a list of INFP stereotypes I had asked for?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

LeSangDeCentAns said:


> Sure thing. Hey, did you ever get around giving me a list of INFP stereotypes I had asked for?


No, why do you need it?


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> Believing metaphysical - spiritual things. Like psychic stuff, reincarnation, angels, mysticism etc.
> I realize not everyone defines it this way, but I prefer it because there is a difference between religions and this type of spirituality that is important to distinguish, yet still relates to belief in metaphysical.


Yeah I see it like this too.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> Yeah I see it like this too.


I'm not sure spirituality of this kind is necessarily linked to an increase in N+F. People have always looked for solution to their existential angst, religion and spirituality being very common options. It's not really that much of a difference. Not to mention how a lot of these things are just trendy, and with the internet there can be a false sense of an increase when it's just accessibility.
There's a difference between people actually having the cognitive preference for N, F and people imitating/following trends. 

Also this part: "It's no longer about companies achieving maximum profits, its about employee well being and diversity", I'd say it's pretty much the opposite after the economic crisis, but it also depends on where you live, and where I live this is not going well at all. Also, for the US, given how people voted Trump for his promise to remove the environmental protections, I wouldn't say this is going well.


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## Highway Nights (Nov 26, 2014)

Man, there are some weird people on this website.


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

Lord Pixel said:


> I think ther are so many introverts that say "The world hates me and all introverts, society is geared towards extroverts" that they do not realize they start to become the oppressor they claim to hate.


Yeah right they oppress people by stating their opinion, makes sense.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> Man, there are some weird people on this website.


Some?

Let's see


Women. RL 50% PerC 56%
Introvert. RL 35% PerC 75%
4 xNTx. RL 12% PerC 37.8%
4 INxx. RL 8% PerC 65%

So yes, we need more normal people in PerC pretty please. Just bring more in and we'll provide the booze.


Sent using Tapatalk


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## Vain (Dec 25, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> Do you 'feel' it too? How are you, as NT, going to do about it since we are so deeply and complexly interconnected we cannot say we don't care or won't be affected at all? Is it normal evolution? Is it really required for progress? Mitigation? Solution?


Yes, I have noticed that.
I'm going to remain silent and/or step aside sometimes, I tend to do that a lot.

It is required for many progresses. There are many things we humans have created, and eventually everything will become a perfect beautiful masterpiece.
Not a migration, but not a burden.

This is another part of the universe, "therefore" not an actual problem which requires a solution. It only has some onerous impacts.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

contradictionary said:


> As titled, and I sincerely believe I don't have to provide detailed proofs on it.
> 
> Suffice to say that the culture we are living in now, globally, is getting even more and more dominated with sensing and feeling cultural dogmas such as; live the presence, experience the now, be yourself, express it, no holds barred, unleash all, indulge yourself, come out and play, let it go, living on a fast lane, ... (fill in the blanks), etcetera, etcetera.
> 
> ...


There are two types of iNtuition. Primal reflexes that are anti-change and true iNtuition which looks for patterns, deeper meanings, interconnectedness and possibilities.

The world has shifted from primal reflexes but not from true iNtuition.


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> It's cuter that NT's _think_ they offend people on the internet and even keep score. h:
> 
> And then they wonder why the real world is dominated by Sensors. Accomplishment in the real world beats fake internet accolades *shrug*


It's very hilarious!
They entertain.
And we take over.
Sounds good to me, lol.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Glenda Gnome Starr said:


> It's very hilarious!
> They entertain.
> And we take over.
> Sounds good to me, lol.


You already did irl, glenda. You're good. We are only 12% irl.

But we NT already did here in PerC. Almost 40% are 4 NT types. :wink:

Sent using Tapatalk


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

contradictionary said:


> You already did irl, glenda. You're good. We are only 12% irl.
> 
> But we NT already did here in PerC. Almost 40% are 4 NT types. :wink:
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


In my family, there is a plethora of NT types. Sad to say, I am probably the only SP. I don't like being the only once since I gain no value from being "unique," lol.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

Everything seems to be about ideology these days. That shit is on you intuitive guys.


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> I'm not sure spirituality of this kind is necessarily linked to an increase in N+F. People have always looked for solution to their existential angst, religion and spirituality being very common options. It's not really that much of a difference. Not to mention how a lot of these things are just trendy, and with the internet there can be a false sense of an increase when it's just accessibility.
> There's a difference between people actually having the cognitive preference for N, F and people imitating/following trends.


I believe all people are born N, but made S through society+own choice. For spiritual awakening to take place, one has to leave this "science = religion" paradigm and dare to use Feeling. Once Feeling has grown to an acceptable level and produced a humble and positive person with good character, can Thinking be engaged. This is kind of what I meant with "there is a spiritual way to use Thinking", but this is not the thinking as we know today where people only care about logic and create the worst kind of evil in the name of "results".

Please note, myself I'm a Thinker in the MBTI system. There is a night-and-day difference between spiritually conscious Thinking with lots of Feeling integrated into it, and science=religion Thinking (those Thinkers, you can never speak about sentimental or personal things with them, if you can't show a mathematical formula or proof in data, sigh)


Red Panda said:


> Also this part: "It's no longer about companies achieving maximum profits, its about employee well being and diversity", I'd say it's pretty much the opposite after the economic crisis, but it also depends on where you live, and where I live this is not going well at all. Also, for the US, given how people voted Trump for his promise to remove the environmental protections, I wouldn't say this is going well.


It's a paradigm shift that we see everywhere. Just listen to 'Simon Sinek' for like 5 minutes and you'll see what I'm talking about. We see this everywhere, in top banks, top companies, Google being another front runner.

Good that you mentioned Trump. Trump, Brexit, Jordan Peterson, The rise of right wing stuff in Europe. That's the polar opposite. Those are the people who do not want the new world and want to hold on to the old world. So there are two types of people: Those who want a new, enlightened, positive new world, and those who want the old days back. I take the time to reply to you (and not some other people) only because I feel that maybe you are one of those who belong to the former category.

This divide is made much clearer now. Families being heavily split between pro- vs against Trump. Pro vs against Muslims. Pro vs against diversity.

This divide has been prophesied thousands of years ago.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Change is always imminent @TB_Wisdom

But does all change needs to be so disruptive and painful? Like how Vishnu vs Shiva works their duet?

Sent using Tapatalk


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## LeSangDeCentAns (Apr 10, 2018)

Satanism is a spiritual ideology. I think the world should embrace it since it's for the better, right @TB_Wisdom ? Why not give all your belongings to the church. It's good!


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

@contradictionary yes it does unfortunately depending on the severity of the underlying problem - if your bathroom has mold that has rooted itself deep into the wall and spread to the foundation, no quick fix will help, you need to renovate the bathroom.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

DeadOutside said:


> Yeah right they oppress people by stating their opinion, makes sense.


How do extroverts oppress introverts again?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> I believe all people are born N, but made S through society+own choice. For spiritual awakening to take place, one has to leave this "science = religion" paradigm and dare to use Feeling. Once Feeling has grown to an acceptable level and produced a humble and positive person with good character, can Thinking be engaged. This is kind of what I meant with "there is a spiritual way to use Thinking", but this is not the thinking as we know today where people only care about logic and create the worst kind of evil in the name of "results".
> 
> Please note, myself I'm a Thinker in the MBTI system. There is a night-and-day difference between spiritually conscious Thinking with lots of Feeling integrated into it, and science=religion Thinking (those Thinkers, you can never speak about sentimental or personal things with them, if you can't show a mathematical formula or proof in data, sigh)
> 
> ...



I think it's likely that people are born having the capability for both, and genes + environment develop the preference. It doesn't make much sense to me that if people were born predominately N, N is so rare (I don't believe MBTI can measure N accurately, and true N people are much less than reported). S is more tied to physical survival, so making a switch like that seems unlikely compared to it being hardwired to prefer.

Maybe this paradigm shift is happening because N people have more influence now than before, more than our numbers increasing. 

Well, I don't think spirituality is a lot better than religion to believe in. That's because as soon as you believe in something, you close the door to the truth, you create a bias in your brain and will lose capability of understanding the world. I prefer to keep possibilities open.
What you describe as maturation of F sounds to me like learning to connect with people more as a T type and value this more than before, developing empathy, etc. It can feel spiritual, but it's not necessarily metaphysical, but how we are wired to connect with each other as the social species that we are.
I don't believe in prophecies... divisions like that have happened many times in history.


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## Veni Vidi Vici (Jun 8, 2018)

Poor INTJs getting oppressed by their ESFJ mothers? :shocked:


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## DeadOutside (Mar 2, 2018)

1. don't think in black and white and assume because I argue against people thinking introverts oppress extroverts that I am an advocate of the opinion that extroverts oppress introverts. 2. one might argue they "shut them out" for not fitting in


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## Ermenegildo (Feb 25, 2014)

*Employee Surveillance*









_Not the Crypto Museum_


*Simon Head: Big Brother Goes Digital*

In her seminal work _The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling _(1983), the sociologist Arlie Russell Hochschild described a workplace practice known as “emotional labor management.” Hochschild was studying the extreme kinds of “emotional labor” that airline stewardesses, bill collectors, and shop assistants, among others, had to perform in their daily routines. They were obliged, in her words, “to induce or suppress feeling in order to sustain the outward countenance that produces the proper state of mind in others.” In the case of airline stewardesses, the managers and human resources staff of the airline companies relied on reports from passengers or management spies to make sure that stewardesses kept up their cheerful greetings and radiant smiles no matter what.

The stewardesses Hochschild studied were working under a regime of “scientific management,” a workplace control system conceived in the 1880s and 1890s by the engineer Frederick Winslow Taylor. Workers subject to such regimes follow precise, standardized routines drawn up by managers and undergo rigorous monitoring to ensure that these routines are followed to the letter. Taylor’s practice is often associated with such factory workplaces as the early Ford Motor plants or today’s Amazon “fulfillment centers,” where workers must perform their prescribed tasks on a strict schedule.

Hochschild showed that regimes of scientific management could be applied virtually anywhere. Her airline company managers aspired to control every aspect of their employees’ emotional conduct. What kept them from doing so was that they weren’t actually present in plane cabins during flights and so had to rely on haphazard reporting to confirm that the stewardesses were always behaving as they should. But in the twenty-first century, new technologies have emerged that enable companies as varied as Amazon, the British supermarket chain Tesco, Bank of America, Hitachi, and the management consultants Deloitte to achieve what Hochschild’s managers could only imagine: continuous oversight of their workers’ behavior.

These technologies are known as “ubiquitous computing.” They yield data less about how employees perform when working with computers and software systems than about how they behave away from the computer, whether in the workplace, the home, or in transit between the two. Many of the technologies are “wearables,” small devices worn on the body. Consumer wearables, from iPhones to smart watches to activity trackers like Fitbit, have become a familiar part of daily life; people can use them to track their heart rate when they exercise, monitor their insulin levels, or regulate their food consumption.

The new ubiquity of these devices has “raised concerns,” as the social scientists Gina Neff and Dawn Nafus write in their recent book _Self-Tracking_—easily the best book I’ve come across on the subject—“about the tremendous power given to already powerful corporations when people allow companies to peer into their lives through data.” But the more troubling sorts of wearables are those used by companies to monitor their workers directly. This application of ubiquitous computing belongs to a field called “people analytics,” or PA, a name made popular by Alex “Sandy” Pentland and his colleagues at MIT’s Media Lab.

Pentland has given PA a theoretical foundation and has packaged it in corporate-friendly forms. His wearables rely on many of the same technologies that appear in _Self-Tracking_, but also on the sociometric badge, which does not. Worn around the neck and attached to microphones and sensors, the badges record their subjects’ frequency of speaking, tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language. In _Sociometric Badges: State of the Art and Future Applications_ (2007), Pentland and his colleague Daniel Olguín Olguín explained that the badges “automatically measure individual and collective patterns of behavior, predict human behavior from unconscious social signals, identify social affinity among individuals…and enhance social interactions by providing feedback.”

The badges and their associated software are being marketed by Humanyze, a Boston company cofounded by Pentland, Olguín Olguín, and Ben Waber among others (Waber was formerly one of Pentland’s researchers at MIT and is now the company’s CEO). Under its original name, Sociometric Solutions, the company got early commissions from the US Army and Bank of America. By 2016 Humanyze had among its clients a dozen Fortune 500 companies and Deloitte. In November 2017 it announced a partnership with HID Global, a leading provider of wearable identity badges, which allows HID to incorporate Humanyze’s technologies into its own products and so expands the use of such badges by US businesses.

The main tool in Humanyze’s version of PA is a digital diagram in which people wearing sociometric badges are represented by small circles arrayed around the circumference of a sphere, rather like the table settings for diners at a banquet. Each participant is linked to every other one by a straight line, the thickness of which depends on what the system considers the “quality” of their relationship based on the data their badges collect.

In a 2012 essay for the _Harvard Business Review_, Pentland described how this method was used to evaluate the performance of employees at a business meeting in Japan. The PA diagram for Day One showed that the lines emanating from two members of an eight-person team, both of whom happened to be Japanese, were looking decidedly thin. But by Day Seven, the diagrams were showing that the “Day 1 dominators” had “distributed their energy better” and that the two Japanese members were “contributing more to energy and engagement.” Evidently some determined managerial nudging had taken place between Days One and Seven. In a June 2016 interview with _MEL_ Magazine, Waber claimed that little escapes the gaze of the sociometric badge and its associated technologies: “Even when you’re by yourself, you’re generating a lot of interesting data. Looking at your posture is indicative of the kind of work and the kind of conversation you’re having.”

In a 2008 article Pentland commended his PA systems for being more rational and dependable than their human counterparts. But the “intelligence” of his and Waber’s PA systems is not that of disembodied artificial intelligence—whatever that may look like—but of corporate managers with certain ideas about how their subordinates should behave. The managers instruct their programmers to create algorithms that in turn embed these managerial preferences in the operations of the PA systems. Pentland and Waber’s PA regime is in fact a late variant of scientific management and descends directly from the “emotional labor management” Hochschild discussed in _The Managed Heart_. But these twenty-first-century systems have powers of surveillance and control that the HR managers of the airline companies thirty years ago could only dream of.

Not all PA systems depend on wearable devices. Some target landlines and cell phones. Behavox, a PA company financed by Citigroup, specializes in the surveillance of employees in financial services. “Emotion recognition and mapping in phone calls is increasingly something that banks really want from us,” Erkin Adylov, the company’s CEO, told a reporter in 2016.Behavox’s website advertises that its systems give “real-time and automatic tracking” of aspects of employee conversation like the “variability in the timing of replies, frequency in communications, use of emoticons, slang, sentiment and banter.” The company, in the words of a recent _Bloomberg_ report,

_scans petabytes of data, flagging anything that deviated from the norm for further investigation. That could be something as seemingly innocuous as shouting on a phone call, accessing a work computer in the middle of the night, or visiting the restroom more than colleagues._

“If you don’t know what your employees are doing,” Adylov told another reporter in 2017, “then you’re vulnerable.”

Most PA software providers rely on combinations of wearables and computer-based technologies to monitor and control workplace behavior. These companies boast that their systems can find out virtually everything there is to know about employees, both in the workplace and outside it. “Thanks to modern technology,” in the words of Hubstaff, a PA company based in Indianapolis, “companies can monitor almost 100 percent of employee activity and communication.”

Max Simkoff, the cofounder of San Francisco’s Evolv Corporation (now taken over by Cornerstone, another Humanyze competitor), has said that his PA systems can analyze more than half a billion employee data points across seventeen countries and that “every week we figure out more things to track.” Kronos Incorporated, a management software firm based in Lowell, Massachusetts, claims that its workforce management systems are used daily by “more than 40 million people” and offer “immediate insight into…productivity metrics at massive scale.”

Microsoft entered the PA market when it acquired the Seattle-based company Volometrix in 2015. It inherited Volometrix’s “Network Efficiency Index” (NEI), which measures how efficiently employees build and maintain their “internal networks.” The index is calculated by dividing “the total number of hours spent emailing and meeting with other employees” by the number of “network connections” an employee manages to secure. The NEI’s recognition of an employee’s network connection depends on whether encounters with coworkers have met both a “frequency of interaction threshold” and “an intimacy of interaction threshold,” the latter of which is satisfied when there are “2 or more interactions per month which include 5 or fewer people total.”

When workers fail to meet these thresholds, other workplace technologies can be enlisted to give them a nudge. One Humanyze client created a robotic coffee machine that responded to data collected from sociometric badges worn by nearby employees. By connecting to Humanyze’s Application Programming Interface (API), the coffee machine could assess when a given group of workers needed to interact more; it would then wheel itself to wherever it could best encourage that group to mingle by dispensing lattes and cappuccinos.

When American managers want to install PA surveillance systems, employees rarely manage to stop them. In Britain, an exception to this trend occurred in January 2016, when journalists at the London office of the _Daily Telegraph _came to work one Monday and found that management had affixed small black boxes on the undersides of their desks that used heat and motion sensors to track whether or not they were busy at any given time. Seamus Dooley of the UK National Union of Journalists told _The Guardian _that “the NUJ will resist Big Brother–style surveillance in the newsroom.” The boxes were removed.

The _Telegraph_’s journalists were right to act as they did. A 2017 paper by the National Workrights Institute in Washington, D.C. cites a wealth of academic research on the physical and psychological costs that intrusive workplace monitoring can have on employees. A study by the Department of Industrial Engineering at the University of Wisconsin has shown that the introduction of intense employee monitoring at seven AT&T-owned companies led to a 27 percent increase in occurrences of pain or stiffness in the shoulders, a 23 percent increase in occurrences of neck pressure, and a 21 percent increase in back pain. Other research has suggested that the psychological effects of these technologies can be equally severe. Many of Bell Canada’s long-distance and directory assistance employees have to meet preestablished average work times (AWTs). Seventy percent of the workers surveyed in one study reported that they had “difficulty in serving a customer well” while “still keeping call-time down,” which they said contributed to their feelings of stress to “a large or very large extent.”

How have the corporate information-technology community and its academic allies justified these practices and the violations of human dignity and autonomy they entail? Among economists, Erik Brynjolfsson at MIT is perhaps the leading counsel for the defense. With Andrew McAfee, also of MIT, he has published two books to this end, _The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies _(2014) and _Machine, Platform, Crowd: Harnessing Our Digital Future _(2017), the latter clearly written with a corporate audience in mind.

In the opening chapter of _Machine, Platform, Crowd_, they write that “our goal for this book is to help you.” The “you” in question is a corporate CEO, CIO, or senior executive who might be saddled with obsolete technologies—in Brynjolfsson and McAfee’s words, “the early-twenty-first-century equivalent of steam engines.” Each subsequent chapter ends with a series of questions aimed at such readers: “Are you systematically and rigorously tracking the performance over time of your decisions?”

Although the use of information technology in the workplace is a dominant theme of Brynjolfsson and McAfee’s two books, the authors say nothing about the surveillance powers of People Analytics or its predecessors, whose existence cannot easily be reconciled with the glowing vision they describe in the opening chapters of _The Second Machine Age_. There are, for instance, eighteen references to Amazon in _The Second Machine Age_ and _Machine, Platform, Crowd_. All of them are to technological breakthroughs like the company’s “recommendation engine,” which reduces search costs so that “with a few checks over two million books can be found and purchased.”

From Brynjolfsson and McAfee one would never know that among large US corporations Amazon has relied perhaps most heavily on a combination of surveillance systems to control both its shop floor and its middle management workforce, and to push the performance of both to the limit. It tags its shop floor employees with micro-computers that constantly measure how long they take to load, unload, and shelve packages at Amazon depots. If the timings set by management are not met, even by a few seconds, the computer starts beeping and the employee gets rebuked. Commenting on a November 2013 BBC documentary about the conditions under which Amazon’s shop floor employees work, filmed clandestinely at a “fulfillment center” at Swansea, UK, the public health expert Michael Marmot of University College, London, noted that such practices had been shown to cause “increased risk of mental illness and physical illness.”

Amazon has also relied on a program called “Anytime Feedback Tool” to achieve comparable levels of surveillance over its middle managers, who are encouraged to send their bosses anonymous evaluations of their co-workers without giving the subject the chance to respond. A manager’s regular monthly performance review may run to fifty or sixty pages; each year Amazon managers with the weakest performance record are in danger of being fired. In the words of a report by Jodi Kantor and David Streitfeld of _The New York Times_, “many workers called it a river of intrigue and scheming” in which cliques of managers could gang up on a colleague and use the system to demote him or her in the performance ratings, thereby protecting themselves from the management cull.

None of this appears in either of Brynjolfsson and McAfee’s books. Despite their academic credentials, Brynjolfsson and McAfee are not acting in these books as eminent scholars conveying new research to a nonspecialist audience. They are acting as propagandists, arming their business audience with their own rationale for using digital technologies in the workplace. Both authors take refuge in a kind of techno-determinism. “We need,” they write in _The Second Machine Age_, “to let the technologies of the second machine age do their work and find ways of dealing with the challenges they will bring with them.”

When Brynjolfsson and McAfee do discuss recent developments in workplace technologies, it is with a kind of fatalism. In this account, the people involved—the CIOs, the system designers, and the programmers—are simply expediting an inevitable transition to a digital-intensive workplace where, as even the authors admit, “some people, even a majority of them, can be made worse off.” (They have particularly in mind those whose labor is “relatively unskilled.”) The techno-managerial elite may perform its tasks with varying degrees of efficiency, but the parameters within which it operates are highly circumscribed.

The managers are not to blame, in this determinist view, for the human consequences of the “second machine age”: jobs are outsourced, while employees are laid off, deskilled, relentlessly monitored, and forced to settle for precarious and poorly paid jobs. The responsibility for dealing with these casualties is dumped onto the state. But by airbrushing out the decisions corporate managers can—and do—make over how to use technologies like Pentland’s PA systems, Brynjolfsson and McAfee are effectively keeping employees in the dark about the forces that lower their quality of life and their standard of health. […] 

Source: The New York Review of Books


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> I think it's likely that people are born having the capability for both, and genes + environment develop the preference. It doesn't make much sense to me that if people were born predominately N, N is so rare (I don't believe MBTI can measure N accurately, and true N people are much less than reported). S is more tied to physical survival, so making a switch like that seems unlikely compared to it being hardwired to prefer.
> 
> Maybe this paradigm shift is happening because N people have more influence now than before, more than our numbers increasing.
> 
> ...


Jung stated that _Type is nothing static, it changes over ones life._ The MBTI wants to claim that type is temperamental. One has to chose which school to believe in. When it comes to Type, which I think is semi/low in accuracy at best, I prefer Jungs school as he is the originator of the idea.

Why I think Type is pretty poor is because I don't see a high utility in it. It worsens peoples lives more than it helps them. Stereotypes, Cognitive Dissonance, Forer effect, A million mistypings, etc. The performance of Type is poor. And there's a quite simple reason for that (same reason you cannot "test score" for your Enneagram). 

I think Jungs original ideas had a lot of utility but they are distorted to hell so badly that Jungs typology and the MBTI are completely different systems.

There are teachings that are 1000x more simple than Type and improve peoples lives 1111x more than type does. 

What do you mean by _divisions like that have happened..._?


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## lunaticrabbits (Dec 25, 2015)

.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> Jung stated that _Type is nothing static, it changes over ones life._ The MBTI wants to claim that type is temperamental. One has to chose which school to believe in. When it comes to Type, which I think is semi/low in accuracy at best, I prefer Jungs school as he is the originator of the idea.
> 
> Why I think Type is pretty poor is because I don't see a high utility in it. It worsens peoples lives more than it helps them. Stereotypes, Cognitive Dissonance, Forer effect, A million mistypings, etc. The performance of Type is poor. And there's a quite simple reason for that (same reason you cannot "test score" for your Enneagram).
> 
> ...


I prefer Jung too, but it doesn't mean he was right at everything. I don't think it's possible to switch from a completely S consciousness to N, because the brain works as an accumulation of stimulus responses and can't just erase and rewire such fundamental workings completely. N/S are opposites, one has to sacrifice for the other to develop so one can't be good at both simultaneously. But it is probably more of a spectrum, someone could be weak at both, so maybe could be switched from a weak S to a weak N in their lifetime.

Cultural divisions like what you mentioned.


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> I prefer Jung too, but it doesn't mean he was right at everything. I don't think it's possible to switch from a completely S consciousness to N, because the brain works as an accumulation of stimulus responses and can't just erase and rewire such fundamental workings completely. N/S are opposites, one has to sacrifice for the other to develop so one can't be good at both simultaneously. But it is probably more of a spectrum, someone could be weak at both, so maybe could be switched from a weak S to a weak N in their lifetime.
> 
> Cultural divisions like what you mentioned.


Sorry that's not how the mind works, that's PersonalityHacker cultist crap [no offense to you at all, just want to take an opportunity to burst some idols here]. The mind can transform many times. This has been studied and proven (to those who care for science/neurology). Very possible to transform from one Jungian type to another. Jung himself did it many times and wrote about it e.g. in seminar 1926, that's why Jungs own typing of himself changed throughout his life. 

That's why your peoples type change now and again. Type isn't static. Ref: Carl Jung.

It's called Transformation. Ancient concept that's quite simple: You grow in consciousness with true knowledge and your psyche transforms. Even Jordan Peterson (lol at this guy) talks about Jungs ability to transform the mind. But oh well, Jung stole that concept like he did with most of his concepts and rebranded it something like Psychic Transformation. So much knowledge stolen by Jung and others like Freud from ancient mystical schools of Sufism, Gnosticism, Kabbala, Alchemy, Astrology, etc. It was easier for Freud, Jung and others to steal knowledge and rebrand it with new nouns and put a scientific "touch" on it because 80 years ago there was no internet and traveling to the south and east was difficult.

There are infinite amount of ancient models that describe psychic transformation. The one most popular in the west would be the 7 Chakras from the Sanskrit/Hindu tradition. Sufi mystics in the Middle Eastern/African tradition have a similar one in the 7 Stations of the Soul. Abraham Maslow stole all of this knowledge, rebranded it, added some scientific jargong and called it "The Pyramid of Needs". I bet if I would bother digging for ancient knowledge in the Mayan/Incan/Aztec traditions I would find something similar.

Jung studied these kinds of mystical arts. Those who read Jung know what I'm talking about. The one who understands this, will understand Jung and will likewise understand what he meant by his psychological types, and what he was really getting at when he talks Extravert and Introvert (outward and inward libido) = Exoteric and Esoteric (just Google and see).


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> Sorry that's not how the mind works, that's PersonalityHacker cultist crap [no offense to you at all, just want to take an opportunity to burst some idols here]. The mind can transform many times. This has been studied and proven (to those who care for science/neurology). Very possible to transform from one Jungian type to another. Jung himself did it many times and wrote about it e.g. in seminar 1926, that's why Jungs own typing of himself changed throughout his life.
> 
> That's why your peoples type change now and again. Type isn't static. Ref: Carl Jung.
> 
> ...



No it hasn't been studied because we haven't found ways to scientifically pinpoint N vs S. What you call transformation may just be maturation, or certain changes happening due to (traumatic) events, not *your perception becoming dominated by the opposite trait than before*. 

You are not considering other options here, such as 1) people who 'transformed' may have been N to begin with 2) the transformations were not really an S->N thing but just certain realizations about ones life, example: an ESFP realizing they don't need people's attention as much so thru a few years of reflection/therapy, this changes their lives quite radically but it doesn't mean their whole perception consciousness now works in an N-type's way, dominated by N (real example). 

You equate this psychic transformation with S->N which may not necessarily be so. You can be N and not spiritual, you're still N.


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## TB_Wisdom (Aug 15, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> No it hasn't been studied because we haven't found ways to scientifically pinpoint N vs S. What you call transformation may just be maturation, or certain changes happening due to (traumatic) events, not *your perception becoming dominated by the opposite trait than before*.
> 
> You are not considering other options here, such as 1) people who 'transformed' may have been N to begin with 2) the transformations were not really an S->N thing but just certain realizations about ones life, example: an ESFP realizing they don't need people's attention as much so thru a few years of reflection/therapy, this changes their lives quite radically but it doesn't mean their whole perception consciousness now works in an N-type's way, dominated by N (real example).
> 
> You equate this psychic transformation with S->N which may not necessarily be so. You can be N and not spiritual, you're still N.


It's better to read and find out the truth rather than having so many opinions not grounded on anything else but speculation. Saying that people are born ES is ego talk, indirectly boosting your own ego saying that you're better or more spiritual or more intelligent because you're N. This is childish, there are better ways to boost ones confidence than such false claims not grounded in anything Jung did (type is nothing static) nor is it grounded on trait theory (Big Five) which again shows that the dichotomies are not static types.

Yes I'm equating S->N as psychic transformation because that's what it is and that's why Jung called Ni's "mystical seers" and "prophets of Israel" [chapter 10]. And psychic transformation is also moving from the exoteric towards the inner esoteric reality, moving away from the outer to the inner reality (i.e., from E->I). In short, from an ES kind of reality more towards an IN kind of reality. Google a random mandala, print it, draw an arrow from the outer (extroverted sensory) shell towards the inner and you'll see the path.

Have you ever read about the third eye? A simple headline on Wikipedia:


> The third eye (also called the mind's eye, or inner eye) is a mystical and esoteric concept of a speculative invisible eye which provides perception beyond ordinary sight


Perception beyond the ordinary sight, i.e., standard definition of intuition.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Anything is possible in the eye of Ni users. Dangerous people, in the past sometime they got burn at stake or forced to drink poison. Too seriously wild.

Sent using Tapatalk


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

TB_Wisdom said:


> This divide is made much clearer now. Families being heavily split between pro- vs against Trump. Pro vs against Muslims. Pro vs against diversity.
> 
> This divide has been prophesied thousands of years ago.


Succinctly put otherwise, but let me engage in a bit of non-empirical based thinking of my own. Hyper rationality did indeed lead to the fascism we saw in Europe during the WWII era but at the same time, a lot of religious people simply assume that religion by itself is "feeling" based. I believe that it's the opposite. 

Religion considers itself hyper rational. Even faith in god is explained through rationality and is based on empirical evidence, but that the standards used for what is evidence of god and the rationality that is used in religion differ from the scientific method. 

There was a time during one of the Muslim caliphates where the search for god itself was largely the pursuit of rational thinkers. Even today it is much the same. 

What I've gleaned from this is that the divide comes not from a rejection of spirituality or feeling, but rather the other innate human trait of wanting to have their "unrealistic" beliefs explained through rational and empirical thought. When someone posits a logical framework for a religious way of life, they are still reasoning even if their reasoning might have flaws. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think that feeling/thinking have pretty much always been deeply mixed but just what we consider rational differs. To many Muslims who have ventured down the path of scientific reasoning, their beliefs are justified through science, more than even faith at times. The "science" behind slaughtering, the science behind fasting .. These all draw (and sometimes cherry pick) from scientific sources as a way to justify their beliefs - and then the claim is that The Creator had advanced knowledge at the time which humans were incapable of understanding and justifying at the time, but look "science proves him right" as evidence of their beliefs as well as evidence of their god. 

Someone like me (now I'm talking more personally), who's an atheist, doesn't actually care about the scientific rationale as much because my belief is shaped by the evidence, but the evidence doesn't confirm what I already believe because I'm able to quickly change my mind if counter-evidence to an existing belief presents itself. 

Anyways, coming back down to earth a little bit .. As far as the divide/division is concerned, I believe you are referring to the coming of the Dajjal in a way? (Or am I wrong). The divides are actually far less than they were in past eras. What's changed is that we have more information about others than we ever did therefore we are more aware of the differences. 

Factually (and in my opinion) based on certain metrics like rise in living standards, decreasing hate crime statistics and less violent wars (less mass killing than ever before), I think our divides are shrinking not increasing.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

TB_Wisdom said:


> It's better to read and find out the truth rather than having so many opinions not grounded on anything else but speculation. Saying that people are born ES is ego talk, indirectly boosting your own ego saying that you're better or more spiritual or more intelligent because you're N. This is childish, there are better ways to boost ones confidence than such false claims not grounded in anything Jung did (type is nothing static) nor is it grounded on trait theory (Big Five) which again shows that the dichotomies are not static types.
> 
> Yes I'm equating S->N as psychic transformation because that's what it is and that's why Jung called Ni's "mystical seers" and "prophets of Israel" [chapter 10]. And psychic transformation is also moving from the exoteric towards the inner esoteric reality, moving away from the outer to the inner reality (i.e., from E->I). In short, from an ES kind of reality more towards an IN kind of reality. Google a random mandala, print it, draw an arrow from the outer (extroverted sensory) shell towards the inner and you'll see the path.
> 
> ...


What? I never said people are born ES  

mystical seers and prophets were a tiny minority of N types who became popular by word of mouth, nothing of that proves that people become S->N, if anything it speaks of their rarity. It seems to me that you are ignoring in our discussion what doesn't suit your narrative, like non spiritual N types, or since you mention 'IN', what about NE types?

I have read a lot about chakras, the third eye, etc. I'm not saying spirituality in general is not linked to N, especially in the conception (mystical seers), but that being N is not a requirement to be spiritual, or vice versa..


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

And the crisises proves these are all true.


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## Elistra (Apr 6, 2013)

I think we're trying to seek some kind of balance in a lifestyle which has become abstract and symbolic to the point of being meaningless for a lot of people.

If you have a modern, first-world office job, think of the various tasks that comprise how you earn a living. Collecting data, writing reports, tracking budgetary expenditures, doing presentations, creating contracts, making payments to said contracts, auditing, sitting in meetings... at least some of this should ring a bell.

*This is how you put a roof over your head, and food on the table. *

However, for most of the existence of our species, things were a lot more visceral, concrete, and hands-on, and we are still hardwired that way. We are hardwired to find those things more pleasurable and meaningful.

_- Does the visceral satisfaction of creating even the BEST report compare to the satisfaction a good ol' boy feels during hunting season, when he kills a big buck? Nope, not even close.

- Does the satisfaction of a perfectly executed audit equal the satisfaction of landing a large fish on the riverbank, especially after a protracted fight from the fish?

- Does the sense of accomplishment derived from living in cookie-cutter suburban housing equal that of living in a cabin you constructed yourself? No.

- Does the happiness of interacting with your tribe equal the happiness of interacting with neighbors whose names you can barely remember?_

However tempted I might be to wax on about the Noble Savage at this point, I'm not necessarily saying we should say, "Fuck this." and go live in huts in the woods or something. There was a reason why infant mortality rates were high back then, and life expectancies comparatively low.

But there must be a balance to these things...

We tend to deride people who cannot or will not "get with the program", as concerns the demands of this abstract, symbolic life, considering them shiftless, irresponsible, or stupid. We deride people who do not feel fulfilled by transactional, relationship-free social interaction, considering them needy, demanding, and vapid.

We consider these things to be character flaws, or even indicative of outright mental pathology.

But what if we could engineer the system *itself,* to make this a non-issue?

_What if we could retain the increases in life expectancy and standard of living, while regaining a large portion of what we have lost -- the more visceral, primitive things that bring happiness, joy, and fulfillment into life?_

I mean, sure, it feels wonderfully edifying to rant and rail about people who can't "suck it up" and adapt themselves to a world so unlike that of our ancestors. I've done it for years... and you know what it does to solve the problem? Nothing. Ultimately, such rants are a self-righteous harangue, one that does little but bore the hell out of everyone who does not already agree with you -- _and the people who agree with you aren't the ones who are finding the adjustment difficult, by definition._

If anyone has any ideas on this, I'd love to hear them.


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## PathSeeker (Aug 3, 2020)

Why can't NTs be themselves?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Interesting thread. I haven’t read the replies yet so I don’t know if my view is new or different. 

Actually I see quotes from each Dominant function that might or might not resonate with me. I’m not sure that I see MORE messages than when I was young from the SP quadrant. The quotes you had were more SP than feeler-related, but could be feeler.

But there is a wisdom to each dom function. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the wisdom each group has. It is indeed wisdom for and from that group. Maybe you need to follow this advice a bit? I think Your worry is an increased amount of these messages? I don’t think that is happening but that can happen since every culture has different values... and often those values are not the values of the dominant type in the population.

For instance, I believe there was much stronger STP male culture in the 60’s in America. If you watch films the men were very keen on being good in a fight on the fly. James Bond, but even you watch The Dick Van **** Show you see the pressure the men had to be sophisticatedly physical. 

Hollywood tends to send out SP or NFP messages in film. Stories about how the businessman learned he was not paying enough attention to his family and needed to learn to “smell the roses.” How very NF that sounds. The Disney messages are most NFP. “ Be true to yourself” and “break out of the mold”, very NFP. Of course most people in the population of America are SJs (like any other human population). Despite Hollywood, the main American values are mostly summed up in the ESTJ personality. America prefers extroversion, logic and order, timeliness, etc. Many other countries adopt very different values, Most of Scandinavia prefers introverted behavior by far and is largely an ixxP culture, I would say...they believe people should be able to govern themselves individually. Japan has an honor culture, more FSJ it seems like.

Anyway, each type has wisdom that we should probably listen to. ESPECIALLY if it is our inferior function, probably. Here’s one that I absolutely hate because it is SJ wisdom. “The secret of your future is hidden in your daily routine.” -mike Murdock. Is it true? Maybe for some? Probably??? Really can it apply to me? I should, right? I should take wisdom from it. But it also seems so not-quite-true for me. 

What about you? Should you “Just do it?” “Shake things up?” 

The thing is... these pieces of wisdom are almost completely necessary to the dominant function who likely wrote them. I heard one of the world’s top surfers (ESTP) say something like “Life is too short to wait and plan to do something that makes you happy. We need to be happy NOW.” And of course I don’t work that way, but that makes perfect sense for dom Se. Planning something exciting kind of vicariously makes me happy now and I struggle to be in the moment. But that is an excellent piece of thought, really. Basically he was saying “Ni doesn’t work for me.” Wasn’t he? And these thoughts you quote don’t work that well for you. And the SI thought above doesn’t work that well for me either. I can take this kind of wisdom in stride.

Im 44 years old, I don’t think our culture is moving towards SP, but likely the same or away from SP as we get less physically active. We’ve definitely gotten less physically competitive over the last 3 decades. . I think we are a heck of a lot less SP in values in America anyway than we were in the 60’s. These thoughts that are inspiring for some were also campaigned across tennis shoes and sneakers when I was a kid. There are lots of sayings out there from every group and they don’t work for all of us. I’m not even sure romantic comedy or romance the way movies and literature presents it works for anyone but NFs either. So I’m glad the knowledge of MBTI can put things into perspective. 
There is Ni wisdom out there too, but it’s not likely to inspire people to get to the gym... or maybe it would? Maybe you’ll come up with it.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Heavier use of media is not necessarily "sensing and feeling" but i know what you mean OP. Perhaps NTs (or NFs) actually have more outlets too now.


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