# People who aren't into the Enneagram



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Vajra said:


> Nobody "needs" the Enneagram. It's just one tool among many to self-awareness and personal growth. I've been studying and applying it for several years, and I wouldn't say I couldn't have done without it. I was doing just fine, and I would have learnt more about myself one way or another.


^basically this. the Enneagram can be wonderfully useful in understanding oneself and others, but some people take it too damn seriously, to the point where they behave in the same manner as (a more New Age-y version of) an offended religious zealot. "the Enneagram is a sacred tool! how could you treat it so frivolously?!" (Beatrice Chestnut herself accused me of just that. had I not enjoyed talking to her or wanted to continue picking her brain on the finer subtleties of types, I would have been far more condescending in retort :laughing: )

my own reasons for the Enneagram are:
1) reading people for the sake of getting ahead
2) seducing people
3) an obsession with classifying things
4) I have very strong Fi (and narcisism) and love the excuse to endlessly reflect on who I am as a person
5) admittedly, it's a convenient vehicle of procrastination :laughing:
6) as Tyrion Lannister famously quotes 
_"Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you"_​


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## avidity (Mar 26, 2014)

hornet said:


> I use the Enneagram a lot.
> It just clicks for me and works pretty well.
> Without it I would indeed not even be close to the level I find myself at now.
> People who arn't into it either don't get it or are too insecure to really face the darkness in their soul.
> ...


You're awesome.


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## avidity (Mar 26, 2014)

One downside imo. I find it maybe is too helpful in getting me to understand another person's POV particularly when they are acting horribly. They end up getting away with more than I'd like them to until a certain breaking point. Then they're shocked when I turn the tables and call them out. My fault for tolerating their behavior though, for so long.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

I'm still in my honeymoon phase with the Enneagram but I don't _need_ it. No one does.

In my case, it helped me understand the deeper, darkest, goriest sides of my own personality and finding explanations, clues, crumbs of knowledge scattered all over the place but they'd still be there even if I didn't have a name for everything my neurosis stand for and for the patterns in which they form. It helped me understand people I'm close to in a deeper way and it made me less socially blind as now it's easier for me to determine why I clash hard with some people or where all of that raging envy and self loathing come from. It's an obsession but not an addiction, I can live without but as long as I'm in love with the concept and it still provides me more tools to play with for a deeper understanding of myself, I'll keep playing hard with it.


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Hotaru said:


> I'm still in my honeymoon phase with the Enneagram but I don't _need_ it. No one does.


Yeah, I remember that. I'm at the apathetic, post-limerence phase... probably a trial separation in a few years followed by divorce.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

avidity said:


> One downside imo. I find it maybe is too helpful in getting me to understand another person's POV particularly when they are acting horribly. They end up getting away with more than I'd like them to until a certain breaking point. Then they're shocked when I turn the tables and call them out. My fault for tolerating their behavior though, for so long.


#9fixerproblems


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

hal0hal0 said:


> Yeah, I remember that. I'm at the apathetic, post-limerence phase... probably a trial separation in a few years followed by divorce.


I much prefer this stage to the mindless crush one since I can keep more objective and avoid jumping at wrong conclusions with every mood I get and without feeling like camping in every repetitive thread this subforum churns out daily. I like interesting ones, the villains thread was a breath of fresh air from the usual over concern with instinctual stackings.

I can't see myself dropping it completely, I tend to often return to the things I was once very passionate about, but it's possible that in a bunch of years from now the fire might die down due to more interesting things going on in my life and new cravings, turning it all into a duller marriage with occasional "that's so Four" and "I need me some ennegram kicks" stages.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I dunno, maybe it's cuz I'm an INFJ and I love getting to the bottom of anything; so it never does get boring for me. Each time I read or reread - for the gazillionith time, I get a spanking brand new insight about myself and about life. Now if only I could do that with other people. *sigh*


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

I guess I'm not big fan of the mathematical side of it, the rule of 7 or whatever it is that people were discussing some time back just seemed like it was creating a mathematical formula to make it fit which you see as 1, 4, 7, 5, 2, 8 (3, 9, 6) which make up the connecting lines. When you realise we relate to all the types, some more than others then the rule of 7 seems kaput, I liked the idea of just seeing the types as a long list of trouble spots. My integration point is 9 yet I don't much positive in the way of this being the way to true progress, I think I can derive progress from learning about any of the types, neighbouring types are apparently useful to look into, we have closer contact with them I think than the integration points and if that makes less sense than our integration points then I just go back to saying we are just as likely as said before relate to other types that don't fit the pattern our core type extends to. It doesn't make sense from a holistic point that we spend all this time trying to hold ourselves in to make the theory work by following the laws of what E says.

As for comparing MBTI and enneagram, I think MBTI is far more structured than E. MBTI and JCF are talking about the same thing but have different attitudes towards it, MBTI being the more arbitrary system, JCF just talks about the essence of all the functions and what a function means, MBTI is responsible for creating the common stereotypes you see round here. If E was a little relaxed, less fanatical about the arbitrary connection points, I imagine it could be appreciated in a more dynamic light, I don't think the lines are necessary when the aim is to get in touch with our essence, this has been a confusion, whether the types are something we should accept in the existence in us, there is much emphasis on dis-identification yet from what I understand about Buddhism, it is largely about acceptance, neither holding on nor forgetting, just accepting and that humans are innately contradictions with their strengths and weaknesses. Another aspect is that attachment is the root of suffering so when we identify with our type, we hold attachment to an ego based on a way of survival. So to identify or not identify? There is positives aswell as negatives for each type, there is positive in a fixation but this topic is perhaps something needing to be discussed at some point.

And I think those who try to preserve some kind of specialness for the E, seem protective over it, that could be for a number of reasons, if they are falling into cult victim mentality then they defeat the object of it's purpose but it does get mis-used in another way, by seeing the wheel in isolation to everything else, who develop a self fulfilling prophecy that it is best used in a pop psychology way, it's not out of protection but they decrease their own depth of understanding and somehow are no better and just as much of a victim in a way, it's why I mentioned somewhere recently about a large component in understanding it, is understanding where it came from, the beliefs of those who designed it originally, so without understanding something like Sufism or Buddhism, you understand half the picture especially if you want to authentically use it to self develop, it's not about a bunch of hippies chanting hymns about E in a circle of smoke, it's based on some fundamental philosophical understandings, the model and the philosophy are innately complimentary and that's not to say - go out and join a buddhist class and become proficient at it but just to take some of the philosophies into your understanding and how that relates to E.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

From my experience some people stigmatize the spiritual aspect of it, equating it to some form of airy fairy religion. I know a few xSTx types who are particularly rigid when it comes to this, and think it will impose on their self-proclaimed commitment to atheism.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Vajra said:


> The DSM garbage in Naranjo's CN is a total joke. I would be interested in knowing more about his whole gestalt therapy incorporation to his clinical practice, from what I understand.


Completely agree, he went too far with the DSM stuff. I don't see how it's even relevant. It just seems utterly self indulgent.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Grandeur said:


> From my experience some people stigmatize the spiritual aspect of it, equating it to some form of airy fairy religion. I know a few xSTx types who are particularly rigid when it comes to this, and think it will impose on their self-proclaimed commitment to atheism.


For me the spiritual aspect is what makes it more interesting than MBTI (in some ways), but I have an ambivalent relationship with spiritual stuff. When I'm in a more Ni or Fi mood, I find it more interesting. But when the good old Te kicks in, I reject it as useless. 

LOL, I don't know why I'm replying to this because I'm not an xSTx. I was just bored and wanted to post


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

FlaviaGemina said:


> For me the spiritual aspect is what makes it more interesting than MBTI (in some ways), but I have an ambivalent relationship with spiritual stuff. When I'm in a more Ni or Fi mood, I find it more interesting. But when the good old Te kicks in, I reject it as useless.
> 
> LOL, I don't know why I'm replying to this because I'm not an xSTx. I was just bored and wanted to post


Yeah there seems to be this assumption that anything spiritual = religious by a segment of the population. I know people who aren't even open to the idea of mindfulness meditation because they think it will magically convert them into a bible basher... 

To me, spirituality is intertwined with self-discovery and growth, with Enneagram being a very insightful tool for going down this path. Science can be quite spiritual to me also, learning our provenance and how the universe has evolved, endeavoring to understand our place in the grand scheme


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Grandeur said:


> Yeah there seems to be this assumption that anything spiritual = religious by a segment of the population. I know people who aren't even open to the idea of mindfulness meditation because they think it will magically convert them into a bible basher...
> 
> *To me, spirituality is intertwined with self-discovery and growth, with Enneagram being a very insightful tool for going down this path. Science can be quite spiritual to me also, learning our provenance and how the universe has evolved, endeavoring to understand our place in the grand scheme*



You're not even a real ENTJ, you're an INFP, just like Carl Sagan! *joking*

What book about the Enneagram would you recommend?


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

FlaviaGemina said:


> You're not even a real ENTJ, you're an INFP, just like Carl Sagan! *joking*
> 
> What book about the Enneagram would you recommend?


The one Enneagram book which I've read is The Wisdom of the Enneagram: The Complete Guide to Psychological and Spiritual Growth for the Nine Personality Types by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson

I highly recommend it, has everything you need to know about Enneagram - ranging from tests and questionnaires to identify your type, history and an indepth 20-30 page guide to growth for each type.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

FlaviaGemina said:


> You're not even a real ENTJ, you're an INFP, just like Carl Sagan! *joking*


My Ni tends to go a bit crazy when I'm home by myself for long periods of time... I enjoy getting lost in science, psychology and philosophy!


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Grandeur said:


> From my experience some people stigmatize the spiritual aspect of it, equating it to some form of airy fairy religion. I know a few xSTx types who are particularly rigid when it comes to this, and think it will impose on their self-proclaimed commitment to atheism.


Since psychology is the study of the soul, 
I can't really say that I see the critique as very valid.
Any psychology that omits the spiritual dimention is no real psychology.
The positivist worldview has run it's course, 
the toll on the human spirit has been a heavy one.

To erect oneself guardian of other peoples subjective experience is no different between the religious camp
or the atheist camp in my opinion. Both have a disregard for others points of view that is really appaling.
The arrogance of atheists are only eclipsed by their religious brothers in arms.
You need two parties to fight.

When we drill down to the edge of science, we still have no clue about what is going on with the universe. 
The best science can do right now is enter particles into tables based on some standard deviation.
We are quite far off from figuring out stuff, so we invent fanzy names like dark matter to convine ourself
that we have control over what we don't understand.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

Grandeur said:


> My Ni tends to go a bit crazy when I'm home by myself for long periods of time... I enjoy getting lost in science, psychology and philosophy!


I was just kidding. I'm incredibly bored with threads like "All I/ENTJs are atheists" or "If you're interested in spirituality at all, you must an INFX". So I rejoice whenever I come across a Te-dom who's got better things to do than prove their Te-domness by parroting stereotypes.


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

hornet said:


> Since psychology is the study of the soul, I can't really say that I see the critique as very valid.
> Any psychology that omits the spiritual dimention is no real psychology.
> The positivist worldview has run it's course, and the toll on the human spirit has been a heavy one.
> 
> ...


Excellent point. Those who believe in "scientism" don't realize that it's just another type of cuddly blanket to protect themselves against their own ignorance. Science shouldn't be (exclusively) about controlling the material world and shooting down certain avenues of inquiry a priori.
I'm just as ignorant as them, but it would be weird if I knew everything there is to know in the world.
They are probably secretly scared shitless because it is impossible to share personal experience 100% and that realization can be quite scary. So they'd rather deny personal experience altogether, so that they don't have to deal with the struggle of trying to share some aspects and accepting that other aspects can never be shared fully.


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## Grandeur (May 30, 2014)

hornet said:


> Since psychology is the study of the soul, I can't really say that I see the critique as very valid.
> Any psychology that omits the spiritual dimention is no real psychology.
> The positivist worldview has run it's course, and the toll on the human spirit has been a heavy one.
> 
> ...


That's exactly why I love keeping up to date with theoretical physics and our understanding of the universe... because we are so far from understanding all there is to know, and I doubt we ever will. Many people assume the true intrinsic nature of the universe is meant to be discovered, but what if it isn't? What if it's not possible? We're merely a construct of the universe, so in a sense it would be like cells in our body trying to develop an understanding of ourselves as an overall organism..

Ah, this conversation has taken a magnificent turn quite quickly


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## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

I like knowing who I am, I like reading things of the "higher power"that explains me to a T. I don't necessarily look for a higher idealogy to define me or anything, but when it's 3 am and I'm having trouble falling asleep, it's much interesting to think about me lol. I like to find other sources that is not myself yet describes me perfectly and then shove it down anyone's face who pays well enough attention. I get to be lazy, have people understand me, and have a million psuedo sources confirming how ethereal I am. xD Howweverrrr, as seducing as enneagram is, I fell out of love for her the other day cause yknow... for having all the answers about people, it was keeping everyone almost contently ignorant about one another. The need to learn about one another disappeared, captivation fleeting and assumption was in the air. In E-communities, I always found myself needing to defend individuality. Something that never used to bother me.. started to piss me off. Convictions were becoming law and was really harshing the mellow. "Sevens do this, not that." or "Sevens are all about this and they hardly have this kind of quality." Lord JEsus, can you _get a fucking grip???_ Witness, enneagram 7 embodies *me*, not the other way around.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

I want to take the tritype one, and have been wanting to for weeks. Just haven't had the time required while also being at a "neutral state." Don't want to spend the $ just to have the results out of whack, because I was irritated, stressed, or whatever when taking it.


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## IIIIII (Oct 2, 2013)

I think a lot of people are just not into figuring out what makes them tick, in most cases ignorance is bliss and when you get off deep into the Enneagram it means having to deal with and acknowledge all of your fucked up tendencies. Most people are just not interested in working with themselves on this level.


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## IIIIII (Oct 2, 2013)

Jeremy8419 said:


> I want to take the tritype one, and have been wanting to for weeks. Just haven't had the time required while also being at a "neutral state." Don't want to spend the $ just to have the results out of whack, because I was irritated, stressed, or whatever when taking it.


You can figure out your tritype on your own through careful deduction, I didn't get it right at first either. I thought my secondary type was 5w4 for the longest time, then I figured out it was actually 5w6. Even by taking a paid test it may take some time for you to figure it out, You have to really own your self and your habits to figure it all out.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm not in to enneagram, and I guess if I'm trying to justify it I would say that mostly it seems to cover things that I'm comfortable working out about people anyway, and a mixture of Keirsey/MBTI/socionics does a good enough job of filling in the gaps.

However, that may just be an excuse and really I haven't read much about it... but I can't seem to find anything that I'm interested in reading about it. If anyone has anything they want to say to convince me I'm more than open to it!

Serious question: what would you say enneagram offers you that Keirsey/MBTI/socionics doesn't?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

ALongTime said:


> what would you say enneagram offers you that Keirsey/MBTI/socionics doesn't?


The biggest difference is that the Enneagram provides an explanation for WHY people behave the way they do, while the MBTI explains HOW they do it. The Enneagram delves into childhood memories and motivation, while the MBTI focuses on information processing.


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

Quang said:


> The biggest difference is that the Enneagram provides an explanation for WHY people behave the way they do, while the MBTI explains HOW they do it. The Enneagram delves into childhood memories and motivation, while the MBTI focuses on information processing.


I've found that socionics does a good job of that, not just people's strengths in processing information but it covers people's attitudes towards different types of information.

I really didn't want to be negative here, I'm not rejecting it because obviously a lot of people here find it very helpful, so there must be something in it. I do want to learn about it some day I just haven't found the motivation yet. I want to be convinced.

Does anyone have any good books/reading recommendations? Preferably something in-depth, I'm not really interested in just a test and a few descriptions. I know there's a reading list thread but I guess I need some help choosing what I should read first.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

They think of themselves as a divergent.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

ALongTime said:


> I've found that socionics does a good job of that, not just people's strengths in processing information but it covers people's attitudes towards different types of information.
> 
> I really didn't want to be negative here, I'm not rejecting it because obviously a lot of people here find it very helpful, so there must be something in it. I do want to learn about it some day I just haven't found the motivation yet. I want to be convinced.
> 
> Does anyone have any good books/reading recommendations? Preferably something in-depth, I'm not really interested in just a test and a few descriptions. I know there's a reading list thread but I guess I need some help choosing what I should read first.


I thought Helen Palmer's; The Enneagram: Understanding yourself and others in your life to be useful in painting quite a graphic interpretation of the types. I like this author a lot.

Sandra Maitri's; The Spiritual Dimensions of the Enneagram: Nine faces of the soul. A more abstract and psychodynamically deep with strong use of alchemic philosophies if you like metaphors to understand. Maitri has a heartfelt voice that is comforting in ways, it helps to deliver the material in a holistic sense.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@ALongTime

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram-personality-theory-forum/144610-enneagram-reading-list.html
Always check out the stickies about these type of resources.


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