# NFs and Sexual Identity



## Wanderling (Dec 27, 2009)

Rustang said:


> but I don't those think ladies generally want sensitive.


Not every "E" is the same, but I think women generally _do _want sensitive—but they don't want men who are so sensitive that they have absolutely no self-confidence. They probably want men to be balanced. And to spend more time being sensitive to their (the women's) needs, to their own insecurities, desires, etc. instead of moping and wallowing in self-loathing with their heads stuck up their metaphorical arses.

Sensitvity is to be embraced; emotionalism avoided. I think.


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## Doubletstep (Dec 28, 2009)

In elementary school, about 95% of my friends were female, and the ones who were male are now also gay. I just got along much better with people who were feminine, simply because I was also very feminine. All the boys would be out playing soccer on the field and I would be with the girls sitting by the trees looking at flowers. I didn't even know what the word gay existed at that age. I never even considered myself "different." I just was who I was.

I remember once starting to cry when I was little because of something stupid my brother did and my dad immediately started screaming at me for "crying like a girl." Yeah, it was traumatic. The fact that I still remember it shows that. It was difficult growing up being forced to not acknowledge a part of myself. However, as I've matured(and as my father has matured), I'm much more open.

I would say I'm very androgynous, but I don't think my masculinity was something that I was genuinely born with. It was sort of beaten into me, and it's something that as an ENFP, that I can easily "become." Obviously, everything I do has a feminine touch to it, but a lot of my straight friends often forget the fact that I'm gay. As an ENFP, I don't consider it conformity, nor do I believe that whether or not I flaunt my homosexuality makes me any less attracted to men.

I all honesty, my masculinity helps me get by. I've developed many close, friendly relationships with straight males that are accepting of my homosexuality. It's kind of funny, because I think they like to hang out with me because I laugh at their locker room humor, and I don't judge them when they become emotional or do something feminine. 

To put my androgyny in very short terms: I love to play Smash Bros. I'm very good at it. I play as Peach.

As far as sexual orientation and personality, I SEVERELY doubt there is a direct correlation. Gender identity, however, is much more plausible. I can see how someone's personality may inhibit them from doing something so outside the "norm." 

2 cents. Maybe 3.


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## Rustang (Dec 31, 2009)

GroovyShamrock said:


> Not every "E" is the same, but I think women generally _do _want sensitive—but they don't want men who are so sensitive that they have absolutely no self-confidence. They probably want men to be balanced. And to spend more time being sensitive to their (the women's) needs, to their own insecurities, desires, etc. instead of moping and wallowing in self-loathing with their heads stuck up their metaphorical arses.
> Sensitvity is to be embraced; emotionalism avoided. I think.


Haha! I have been accused of Cranial Rectumitus on occasion, but I was speaking more of "the rules for me don't apply to you" cases. Double standards. 

Didn’t mean to imply all E’s are the same. In fact, I’m pretty sure the ones I’m dated have not been NF’s. We were opposites. Great attraction, but difficult to get anything done together, agree on anything. I have NF friend-girls, but not much attraction?! [email protected]#*&? What gives.

but yeah, I'm sure there are women who appreciate traditionally more feminine qualities in a man. sensitive, demonstrative, etc..


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## Wanderling (Dec 27, 2009)

Rustang said:


> I have been accused of Cranial Rectumitus on occasion


Hehe, I'd never heard it put like that. But yeah, it's something I tend to do too often myself.


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## Bluebird (Nov 29, 2009)

To me, bodies are just vessels of the soul.
If you truly love someone, then you would love for who they are, not how they look right?
Hence the word soulmate??


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## Wanderling (Dec 27, 2009)

Bluebird said:


> To me, bodies are just vessels of the soul.
> If you truly love someone, then you would love for who they are, not how they look right?
> Hence the word soulmate??


Yes; when you fall in love with someone's personality, with someone's charm, it doesn't take long until you start finding them really attractive as well. It sounds a bit like a cliché but that's because it's true: people usually don't take enough time to discover the "inner person" in others.


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## thor odinson (May 21, 2011)

MBTI type may affect how one is perceived

i.e. a feeler man may be more likely to be perceived as gay in comparison to a thinker man

conversely

a thinker woman may more likely be perceived to be a lesbian when compared to a feeler woman

The correlation between the two however is pretty weak as there are thinkers and feelers with all sorts of orientations

I'm a 100% attracted to women both sexually and romantically. The male body is just not appealing to me sexually in fact quite repulsive and i could never develop romantic feelings for guys.

Gender wise I'm not overtly butch nor am I feminine or androgynous.

Empathetic yes but not interested in chick flicks, shopping or gossip although I do like superhero movies where the guy gets the girl especially if she's hot 

Don't like drinking beer because it tastes like piss and I don't live for my car. Like action, combat, superheroes, superpowers in movies.

So make of that what you will


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## Modesty (Aug 30, 2011)

I really only care about sex and women but I don't see any reason to be anti-gay. The thought of being a homosexual confuses me, but I believe most people are mostly bi to some degree. Adrodgyeny and gender confusion also perplexes me. X and Y is a pretty basic concept.

I guess Id like to experiment and understand but even gays themselves start acting all strange when you ask for details about why they are gender confused or proffer the same sex.


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## QuirkyCouple (Oct 5, 2011)

*My Perspective: Sexuality <> Sexual Identity, but as to Gender Identity?...*

Hello Prufok,

Yours was a very interesting post; I hadn't thought much before on gender identity. I honestly had to Wiki androgeny to ensure I understood the gist of it's meaning in terms of biological/physiological factors (it doesn't seem to address any of the above aside from subjective [societal] interpretation), sexual identity and sexuality. 

I briefly scanned the article, but it seems to be a societal definition of gender and perceived gender roles, and therefore is likely largely flawed in both definition and interpretation. My reasoning being, is that anything complex and subjective that is defined by society at large, indicates an inordinate amount of compromise was required to suit (or maybe just to ignore?) millions of individual viewpoints, the end result being a definition that essentially would differ from any one, truthfully-voiced source of input, and this consensus definition probably satisfies no one, but essentially many may go along with it because they haven't gotten to around working it out for themselves (or perhaps some people just like it when someone else works out how one should feel about something; after all "who has the time to do that themselves these days?" [JOKE, but embarrassingly, it might represent the truth more than we would feel comfortable knowing]).
*
I personally consider sexual identity to be distinct from sexuality*, and here's my logic. An individual might like to mix it up in the bedroom A LOT, but unless they can truly indicate, that with said partner, regardless of gender they could possibly enjoy: sticking around cuddling, holding hands, and possibly planning a future together buried under an oppressive mortgage, bickering about money and who brings the cooler in-law's to the table, etc., then that person is arguably not bisexual. To my mind, sexual identity is essentially "pair bonding", and would seem to largely to be biologically hard-wired. It seems that it would be quite rare to find an individually that truly could "pair bond" either way, interchangeably, with little to no preference...

However, sexuality is extremely complex and personally defined by both biological factors as well as developmental, and it's expression is largely shielded by the individual from society (and therefore, probably grossly misreported in studies); some articles I've seen recently lead me to believe some people actually seem to find it hard not to shield from themselves. Sexuality is largely tied to gender identity by society, but look around you for examples to the contrary: did the whole of Western society suddenly develop "lesbianism", or did sexualization of young women (and society's acceptance, even encouragement) allow them to exercise humanity's inherent fluid sexuality, to permit them to start kissing women while out partying, something I'm convinced a large number of younger women are simply trying out, or sometimes doing to attract attention to themselves! Not that many women don't truly enjoy female sex partners, but I'm guessing they [women truly interested in same sex contact] largely "follow through", and do so while (a) not 16, and (b) under the influence of a significant amount of alcohol, and that (c) generally they are not posting the photos to Facebook to incite arousal in their male buddy list.

Uncommon, Personal Example In My Life: I have a friend who most women would be instantly attracted to as a warm-hearted, but very masculine guy (build, career, hobbies, mannerisms, etc.); he's married (and it's quite apparent he's strongly attracted to his wife), and has children. He and his wife are swingers, and it's quite apparent how attracted he is to women - but he is also unabashedly "fluid" in his sexuality, and very comfortable relating his experimentation with males (albeit in a strictly sexual capacity; he does not "date" them). So he really is a "man's man" in the conventionally understood sense of the expression, but he is also confident (hell, more like proud) enough to admit he likes to experiment in the bedroom. I don't think it gets more masculine than that, but many might disagree…

Now, as to the part I'm not sure I could begin to address, is one's own gender identify. I would speculate that like one's sexual identity (hetero- or ****- sexual), it's largely a matter of "biological wiring" (and in fact, perhaps can be closely [but not directly] related to sexual identity; hence the behavior of some homosexual males that behave in a societally-interpreted "effeminate" way; though not all homosexual males behave this way).

However, to wrap it all up (to all your questions), I'd say: who could truly claim to know for certain how it all works, and honesty, who cares (as in, how would the answers really change any given individual's reality)? I think it's up to the individual to decide what's right for them, and to forget the whole of society (which is really just a handy way of referring to "all of us") at large. If there are individual elements of society that interfere with your happiness in life, then simply avoid them. The energy spent attempting to show them how idiotic it is to worry about matters that have zero impact on their lives, would most definitely not yield satisfactory results. However, know that the tide is shifting in your favor, and that people will become so "non-homogenized" with time, there will hopefully be a significant drop in "us" versus "them" viewpoints...

So in essence, just be happy to be who you are. We're all "f*cked up" in our own, unique ways, some of us just hide it better!


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## QuirkyCouple (Oct 5, 2011)

*Sexual Identity --> MBTI Type*



prufrok said:


> Are any of the types more or less prone to its members being homosexual or bisexual? Transgender in some way?
> 
> (I know these can be touchy subjects, so I apologize if anyone is offended.)
> 
> I guess to get the ball rolling, I am an INFP whose sex is male. In terms of gender identity, though, I would call myself androgynous, an androgyne. [/B]


Whoops, a follow-up to my rather long winded post...

_*As far as correlation, I haven't bothered to poke around for research, but I think it would more apt to indicate that sexual identity would probably influence MBTI (not the other way around)*_, and when you consider the mental processes one invokes in wrestling with sexual and gender identity matters, I think it's a fair assumption that it would tend to make one introverted, intuitive (there's little concrete data upon which the experts can agree), and a feeling nature and "open-mindedness" seem to be requisite as well, so I-N-F-P seems like a natural role for an androgyne to adopt.

Even if there was correlative data, it would not indicate causation anyway...
_*
(P.S. - Don't apologize for asking an insightful series of questions; only the insecure and weak could possibly be offended by your questions; it is they who should apologize...)*_
P.P.S. - For demographic [your showed yours] purposes, I'm INFJ-typed, male [would categorize perception of myself as "average masculinity"], married, would identify as heterosexual, and at this point in life, pretty sexually open {but unfortunately, not necessarily experienced in the same sex area; lack of opportunities more so than curiosity}. Not that any of it matters, just thought you might like to know a "normal" (yeah, right... there is no such thing) member of society was drawn to this thread.


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## Shantkn (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm a lesbian trapped in a male's body. So, transgender?

But in seriousness, it's basically that. I have a lot of issues with my own masculinity, and the masculinity of others. Which means I end up defying even minor stereotypes. I have a rather feminine personality, which has caused some people to guess that I'm gay; it's really annoying when they don't believe me when I tell them I'm not. And really, I'm not. In fact, despite how I support homosexuals, I'm a borderline homophobe. By the very definition, I'm uncomfortable around guys in general. Unless very awkward psychological conditions come into play, I'd much rather be with a girl than a guy. I mean, I hide this well in public, so you wouldn't know about it unless I told you. I guess it's lucky that I can at least pose as a straight male.

I know why I'm like this, but I'd rather not share. I don't like receiving pity, nor do I like throwing others into comfortable positions.


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

from polls i've seen most Homosexuals are NFs. 

I don't mean to offend but i don't really subscribe to the whole Andrognous thing, I'm not a stereotypical man at all but really i think it kind of reinfocres gender roles, treating as abosolute qualities one does or does not adherre too, rather than widely inaccurate generalizations that they are. 

I'm also a Bisexual, but the fact i like both males and females isn't really a huge part of my personality


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## QuirkyCouple (Oct 5, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> from polls i've seen most Homosexuals are NFs.
> 
> I don't mean to offend but i don't really subscribe to the whole Andrognous thing, I'm not a stereotypical man at all but really i think it kind of reinfocres gender roles, treating as abosolute qualities one does or does not adherre too, rather than widely inaccurate generalizations that they are.
> 
> I'm also a Bisexual, but the fact i like both males and females isn't really a huge part of my personality


Hello SenhorFrio,

Very succinctly put; I think generalizing behavior goes too far (however, I think there is a kernel of truth, given that nature favored a "division of labor". If there weren't some characteristics of females versus males that were 'generally' consistent, than "sexes" wouldn't exist); the definitions that society has created really benefit no one, especially those that find themselves at odds figuring out exactly how they do or do not "fit in"... I'm not so sure anybody really fits in, some just have an easier time appearing to do so (maybe at the expense of hiding their true feelings from even themselves)...

...And how could "aberrant" sexual preferences (quoted, because I believe there are relatively few aberrant behaviors), not make one inclined to 'NF' personality traits? It seems that "aberrant" sexual preferences would require constant reflection on one's feelings...
_*
However, it's interesting that you indicate you're a bisexual (and it's a semantical thing, but I think that true bisexuality would be very rare - for example, could you really say you could see yourself marrying an individual from either sex?), but that it's not a "huge part of [your] personality*_". I would consider myself a heterosexual, with a very open sexuality (and the later part, only the closest to me know - the open part is something I only need and wish to exercise in the bedroom), and despite fitting "very well" into society's definition of "normal" male behavior, I believe that my perspectives are a HUGE part of my personality...

Sexuality is as important in our daily lives as food, sleep, etc. How could it not? You seem like a contented individual, satisfied with your identity, so... _*I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...*_


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## SenhorFrio (Apr 29, 2010)

QuirkyCouple said:


> Hello SenhorFrio,
> 
> Very succinctly put; I think generalizing behavior goes too far (however, I think there is a kernel of truth, given that nature favored a "division of labor". If there weren't some characteristics of females versus males that were 'generally' consistent, than "sexes" wouldn't exist); the definitions that society has created really benefit no one, especially those that find themselves at odds figuring out exactly how they do or do not "fit in"... I'm not so sure anybody really fits in, some just have an easier time appearing to do so (maybe at the expense of hiding their true feelings from even themselves)...
> 
> ...


 It's really a false assumption people make that bisexuals prefer both genders equally, It's much easier to be attracted to someone of the oppisite gender for practical reasons, the majority of men are not gay or bisexual and the the majority of women are straigh also, so the odds of me getting with a women is much greater than the odds of me getting with a guy. My bisexuality doesn't come up very often, most of my friends are straight males so talking about it makes them a bit uncomfortable(though i do tell anyone i feel won't judge me for it), It's not a monkey on my back it's just something thats there. I look at gay porn occasionally, not as often as straight porn(i find gay porn a little too posh for my tastes). In regards to the sexes thing it's just not for me, I agree that gender roles are stupid i just don't agree with inventing some middle catergory to protest the system, I'm a senstive emotional person but i don't feel like that makes me anything less of a man, and i really don't care what society expects from me.I hope tihs all makes sense!


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## ProtectorOfKittens (Oct 13, 2011)

I suppose I am androgynous, but more because the concepts of "masculinity" and "femininity" don't make much sense to me. I very rarely feel "feminine." I mean, is it inherently "feminine" to wear dresses and makeup and show emotion? Is it inherently "masculine" to be tough and logical? I think not.


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## Kaspa (Jul 11, 2011)

ProtectorOfKittens, your nickname is adorable.


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## locofoco (Apr 5, 2011)

QuirkyCouple said:


> _*
> However, it's interesting that you indicate you're a bisexual (and it's a semantical thing, but I think that true bisexuality would be very rare - for example, could you really say you could see yourself marrying an individual from either sex?), but that it's not a "huge part of [your] personality*_". I would consider myself a heterosexual, with a very open sexuality (and the later part, only the closest to me know - the open part is something I only need and wish to exercise in the bedroom), and despite fitting "very well" into society's definition of "normal" male behavior, I believe that my perspectives are a HUGE part of my personality...
> 
> Sexuality is as important in our daily lives as food, sleep, etc. How could it not? You seem like a contented individual, satisfied with your identity, so... _*I'd be interested to hear your thoughts...*_


I wish I could pull up some hardcore statistics to prove this, but I read somewhere on the distant plains of the Internet that apparently bisexuals outnumber gays and lesbians. But biphobia in the LGBT and heterosexual communities makes bisexuals less likely to feel comfortable being out. Also, how a bisexual can appear straight or gay depending on their partner, it creates a false impression that they are less common. 

I'm bisexual, and if the US gets its shit together and makes same-sex marriage legal, I can absolutely see myself marrying either a man or woman. But I agree with @SenhorFrio that being bisexual isn't a huge part of my personality. There's a stigma that non-heterosexual people are in constant preoccupation about their sexuality, which I'm sure is the case for some people, but the people we chose to sleep with has the same importance as it would to a heterosexual person. Some people love being in love or having sex, other people not so much. Those ideals have no tie to sexuality or gender. I'm sure not all heterosexual people feel their lives revolve around liking the opposite gender, and it's the same thing with non-heterosexual people. I've always approached my sexuality like: "I am bisexual and that's a fact about myself, but before being bisexual, I'm a writer, student, cat lover, daughter, sister, hermit."

@Shantkn Transgender men are insanely attractive! But I'm afraid of approaching anyone since the stereotype for transgender men is that they're gay and my insecurity often makes me believe it. lol But yeah, keep on being you! It's fantastic. :laughing:


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## QuirkyCouple (Oct 5, 2011)

SenhorFrio said:


> It's really a false assumption people make that bisexuals prefer both genders equally, It's much easier to be attracted to someone of the oppisite gender for practical reasons, the majority of men are not gay or bisexual and the the majority of women are straigh also, so the odds of me getting with a women is much greater than the odds of me getting with a guy. My bisexuality doesn't come up very often, most of my friends are straight males so talking about it makes them a bit uncomfortable(though i do tell anyone i feel won't judge me for it), It's not a monkey on my back it's just something thats there.


Hello S.F.,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner... I think if you viewed my prior two posts in this thread, you'd perhaps realize we might agree more than you originally perceived. * I interpret bisexuality perhaps more literally than most (the INTJ-ish part of me); to bisect something is to divide it in the middle; so I view it as meaning a sexuality (so, the whole essence of one's sexual being; significantly more complex and inclusive than just "sexual practices")* that is close to indifferent as to preferences of true, romantic relationships with men or women. As you stated, there's an element of convenience that would seem to pull someone truly indifferent, towards the opposite sex side, simply for the "convenience" factor. Hence, my reason for believed *true bisexuality* as rare; I don't find it unusual that an individual could find bisexual practice appealing (so, "*bisexual practice not necessary rare*").

With that in mind, perhaps my view that it seems that sexuality would seem to have a significant influence on personality might make a little more sense, because I'm not just referring to the "between the sheets" stuff (my own sexuality, though primarily heterosexual in "anchorage", in practice as well, still seems to me to bear significantly on my own personality). Consider the way your sexuality affects your social expression when in the company of your heterosexual male friends. Because you are comfortable with yourself, it's not necessarily detrimental, but there still seems to be an effect (less open expression, so less intimacy with heterosexual male friends).

So, not "something good", not "something bad", neither right nor wrong, just "something". Human nature in it's infinite variety, no judgement rendered (not from this camp, anyway).

Hope that helps your understanding of my opinion, but it's just that... I really can't prove that it's any better or worse than anybody else's, I just put it out there for others to take the parts they like, and leave the rest.


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## QuirkyCouple (Oct 5, 2011)

locofoco said:


> I'm sure not all heterosexual people feel their lives revolve around liking the opposite gender, and it's the same thing with non-heterosexual people. I've always approached my sexuality like: "I am bisexual and that's a fact about myself, but before being bisexual, I'm a writer, student, cat lover, daughter, sister, hermit."


Hello L.F., I can tell you as an INFJ male married to an ESFJ female, that yes, my heterosexual life does revolve around my liking of the opposite gender (and in particular, a very specific member of that gender)... ; )

But my sexuality is very important in the way I interact with my niece, as my values dictate that I behave as a positive male role model in her life, and to ensure I don't behave in ways that would "box in" her direction in development. Practically, I try not to make the mistake of commenting solely on aesthetic qualities (her new dress is cute, or pretty, etc.), while neglecting to recognize her other abilities. She gets plenty of the former comments from other male family members, so I try to exclusively recognize her other qualities (artistic abilities, intelligence and maturity) while representing a "masculine" figure in her life.

In essence, I have to quash the "automatic" drive of my sexuality to notice and comment on the aesthetic qualities of adult women (that wish to hear it from me), from permeating my speech in my interactions with my niece (although of course, in the "cutesy'ed", age appropriate language we use with children).

Might your bisexuality allow you to better interact with your sister in the same way I do with my niece (if your sister was younger), as you know that one-size does not in fact fit all (and kudos to you for living your life in a way that makes you happy), and allow you to support her in any way she chooses to be in life? *I guess in essence, I would view bisexual and gay individuals to be a positive asset in young children's lives if such adults are free to express their sexuality openly without judgement when in the presence of family. It would send a strong message that they can make very different choices, and it's still acceptable.
*


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## IAmOrangeToday (Sep 30, 2011)

I think it's less whether you're homosexual that's affected by type, and more if you can accept your own sexuality.

I myself have seen no correlation; regardless of sexuality, all NFs seem to love passionately though, and more importantly openly.


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