# Problematic Inferior Fi



## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

As the title said, I’d like to know how to deal with the manifestation of inferior Fi. When I was a little kid, Fi outburst would be easily expressed as an anger by snapping at people or kicking the table. Nowadays the problem is oftentimes it’s inexpressible which means whenever the inferior Fi is not in order, I am unable to use my dominant function effectively which means I am almost unable to do anything, for example, I lose my concentration and lose my effectiveness and become disorganized sometimes it causes a deep problem, for example when the inferior Fi is not being handled well, I could slide down from for number 1 to number 100 (very destructive).

I read somewhere that “the qualities of this inferior Fi become manifested in hypersensitivity to inner states, outbursts of emotion and a fear of feeling,” the reason why I think it’s better to avoid it altogether because if I’m completely devoid of it, I can avoid the depressed affect of it and I can perform well. However, sometimes it’s unavoidable; if people I deal with can not take me ignoring my own Fi, I tend to make them cry/miserable (because ignoring my own Fi would be categorized as ‘selfish, cruel, insensitive’) while I don’t mean it/I don’t want it to happen (as my Fe is pretty well developed); if I don’t ignore my own Fi due to Fe concern however I’d make my own self miserable because my dominant function can’t perform well. 

I’d appreciate comments from either those who have managed to use Fi well or those who may have experienced same problems like mine. What’s Fi? How does it manifest in you? How to deal with it? 

Thank you very much in advance.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

So that means that you're either ENTJ or ESTJ?

This and this are pretty good descriptions of Fi as it stands alone. 

As your inferior function, Fi is either aspirational or projective, meaning that it takes the form of either hopes and aspirations, or in the form of subconscious misuse in the external world. I have found that my inferior function, Se, typically leads to fascination - the crazy night that I had not planned; appreciation of the random verbal image that I wish Ni could have created, but that is too well-grounded in the present for it to create; the fascination of doing something completely nuts and having it _somehow_ work out and be fun at the same time. Awww, what they hell, forget about epistemology and quantum mechanics - let's pack up and take a road trip. No hotel? Mehh, we'll find something. 

I would imagine that a positive realization of inferior Fi would manifest in a realization that the end result of a goal is not _always_ profit - that ultimate subjective meaning, or end value _is_ a profit, or _is _the end reality of a project. You _do _have emotions, however usually muted, and they do, actually, come from your own interpretations of value and meaning. Perhaps the meaning *is *the profit or end result? 

At its worst, this can lead to the actualizations you describe above. At its best, it can provide a source of both confusion and infatuation.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

Fi is my second strongest, and it just comes through in my value system. These are abstract things that I adhere to so strongly that they mean more to me than most other things, and it usually comes naturally when incorporating them in my life. I can take comfort in knowing that something someone did was just plain wrong, and I don't feel the need to make those opinions known until the proper moment comes up, if it ever does. I think most Fi users believe in some sort of karma or a "do unto others" ideology. It can help to try to see things from another person's point of view and see if an action was excusable/understandable or not. As far as observing your own behaviors, it's helpful to think in adjectives hah. Before making a big decision especially regarding relationships, I ask things along the lines of What kind of person would do this? A coward? A jerk? A good friend? A brave person? etc. If I feel okay with the string of adjectives or personalities following that question, I follow through. It's not perfect but 9 times out of 10 it leads me in a direction I'm happy with. My first function is Ne, which helps the Fi from bringing me down, as does my tertiary Te (which I'm not sure is my tertiary but it's supposed to be), I don't think it's at all healthy to ask those questions all the time for every decision, but for the big things it's really useful.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Yea Inferior Fi can also bring about a strong It's Me Versus The World sentiment when its a negative outburts. You also get a lot of histrionic "you're trying to take away my freedoms" notions too. It can sort of turn the person into thinking they are a martyr.

This excerpt on Inferior Fi should help The Form of the Inferior - ETJs


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you for the links. The first one is pretty interesting but I’d just quote some paragraphs which resonate with me:



> Let us first look at some "domestic" versions of projection that highlight the moral dimension involved in dealing with the inferior function. When a person projects aspects of his or her personality onto an object with which the ego is in accord (usually thought of as the "good" aspects of the personality), one may assume that the projection serves to bring the object closer to the person. This "intimacy" may eventually make for an increase in mutual understanding between the subject and object. Perhaps if the object were another person, projection in this sense may initiate what would become a friendship. Unconsciously, we often first see the virtue we believe to be in ourselves in just such a friend. Consciousness too is liable to rally to establish such a psychological fact and then go on to "test" it over time. With some work on both sides, perhaps the friendship will prove true and lasting."
> 
> On the other hand, when a person projects aspects of his or her personality with which the ego is at odds (usually thought of as the "bad" aspects of personality, or the inferior function), then projection may in fact serve to distance the object from the subject. The relationship between subject and object now becomes disdainful, repulsive, and even hateful. The object is so tinged with the negative aspects of the subject's unconscious that we may truly speak of it as the "enemy."


On an unrelated matter:



> This is what happens on a regular basis in primitive culture, though less so in modern culture, given the primacy of the individual and the evolution of modern consciousness. In primitive culture, the individual is subordinate to the collective, whose myths and rituals represent how things must be. The myths carry the projections for the group; the rituals carry the power to mediate the projections. Everyone knows how and why they are what they are simply by being a part of the group.


The second link really helps me to understand the definition of Fi. And yes, I’d like to see my Fi to manifest itself positively in the form of hopes and aspirations and that the end result of the goal I pursue is not always profit. However the end reality of a project is important, while a healthy Fi would help to make it happen, the negative one rather destroys it…

Actually I found that Se inferior function in INxJ just makes them to be less spontaneous abit, holding back and observing, which is not really a bad thing…I'm not too sure...


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

funcoolname said:


> Fi is my second strongest, and it just comes through in my value system. These are abstract things that I adhere to so strongly that they mean more to me than most other things, and it usually comes naturally when incorporating them in my life. I can take comfort in knowing that something someone did was just plain wrong, and I don't feel the need to make those opinions known until the proper moment comes up, if it ever does. I think most Fi users believe in some sort of karma or a "do unto others" ideology. It can help to try to see things from another person's point of view and see if an action was excusable/understandable or not. As far as observing your own behaviors, it's helpful to think in adjectives hah. Before making a big decision especially regarding relationships, I ask things along the lines of What kind of person would do this? A coward? A jerk? A good friend? A brave person? etc. If I feel okay with the string of adjectives or personalities following that question, I follow through. It's not perfect but 9 times out of 10 it leads me in a direction I'm happy with. My first function is Ne, which helps the Fi from bringing me down, as does my tertiary Te (which I'm not sure is my tertiary but it's supposed to be), I don't think it's at all healthy to ask those questions all the time for every decision, but for the big things it's really useful.


Thank you very much for this, it’s very helpful. Yes I think my problem is that I have trouble to see things from another’s point of view, probably I should try to improve on this. I tend to make my opinions known, a little bit contrary to the nature of Fi which keeps its ideal inside, so oftentimes interpersonally I am the one who unknowingly hurts the Fi or intrapersonally I get frustrated because the introverted nature of Fi makes myself uncomfortable if it’s an unhealthy one or even if it’s a positive one because it’s too dreamy or rather unreal. Thank you for the advice though =)


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

@LiquidLight yes my original post was sourced from that site with a slight modification. Thank you anyway.


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## phantom_cat (Jan 1, 2011)

I thought inferior Fi would see Fi as a weakness, because if there's something you won't do, because it either goes against your values or isn't you, then it's one less opportunity (from Te's view). From what I read tertiary Fi would create outbursts. I would think that inferior Fi would take anyone's "opinions" as nothing, that they need facts (Te leading the way).


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> I thought inferior Fi would see Fi as a weakness, because if there's something you won't do, because it either goes against your values or isn't you, then it's one less opportunity (from Te's view).


This would be impossible, since it takes Fi to drive Te to begin with (Te doms/auxes aren't robots who just solve any problem that gets in their way logically for no reason - they have their own, very personal reasons driving their T motivations - the lower the Fi, the more deeply personal the Te user's motivations will be with regards to themselves over others). Since their are sooooooooo many Te = robot misconceptions that circulate the internet due to the poor understanding of Fi's relationship to Te in *ALL* Te users, I'll use my NTJ brand of understanding Fi to demonstrate how it affects Te motivations between Te doms and Te inferiors:

EXTJs: Their motivations are the most personal of all Fi types, which can result in the actions they take via Te seeming inappropriate to Fi-doms, since Fi-doms would naturally have a better sense of what would be appropriate/inappropriate via Fi criteria (which is personal, but more clearly oriented toward others, since orienting toward others in reasoning would constitute _morality_, which is essentially F reasoning) to strive for via Fi. In other words, their Fi reasoning is highly present in the decisions they make, but it is vastly different in the nature of how it manifests to make decisions from the dominant form. They can very likely appreciate their highly individualized Fi (the inferior functions are where a person is the most individualistic in their approach to life, which is often a major threat to those with that inferior function as their dominant function - however, this doesn't mean that inferior Fi users are less capable of morality than the Fi doms - their personal morality is just far from the more naturally "standardized" morality of Fi doms - in other words, standards that society can understand or relate to cannot effectively be applied to inferior Fi (or tert. Fi much more), since they are so highly individualized (personal) and nuanced by subconscious content, but since it is so individualized, they're going to have trouble appreciating higher Fi in others (like Fi doms/auxes). The higher Te in Te doms/auxes compensates for this. All types have this kind of compensatory higher function relationship for less _societally standardized_ lower functions. I would appreciate any feedback on my ideas presented here!


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> Actually I found that Se inferior function in INxJ just makes them to be less spontaneous abit, holding back and observing, which is not really a bad thing…I'm not too sure...


Completely true observation that I cannot seem to break as a form of hesitation easily, unless I'm really detached from the pressures of the moment due to some internal motivations that have no basis in the actual moment, which is likely tert. Fi at work, since the tert. and inferior functions work together to directly influence each other.


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## phantom_cat (Jan 1, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> This would be impossible, since it takes Fi to drive Te to begin with (Te doms/auxes aren't robots who just solve any problem that gets in their way logically for no reason - they have their own, very personal reasons driving their T motivations - the lower the Fi, the more deeply personal the Te user's motivations will be with regards to themselves over others). Since their are sooooooooo many Te = robot misconceptions that circulate the internet due to the poor understanding of Fi's relationship to Te in *ALL* Te users, I'll use my NTJ brand of understanding Fi to demonstrate how it affects Te motivations between Te doms and Te inferiors:
> 
> EXTJs: Their motivations are the most personal of all Fi types, which can result in the actions they take via Te seeming inappropriate to Fi-doms, since Fi-doms would naturally have a better sense of what would be appropriate/inappropriate via Fi criteria (which is personal, but more clearly oriented toward others, since orienting toward others in reasoning would constitute _morality_, which is essentially F reasoning) to strive for via Fi. In other words, their Fi reasoning is highly present in the decisions they make, but it is vastly different in the nature of how it manifests to make decisions from the dominant form. They can very likely appreciate their highly individualized Fi (the inferior functions are where a person is the most individualistic in their approach to life, which is often a major threat to those with that inferior function as their dominant function - however, this doesn't mean that inferior Fi users are less capable of morality than the Fi doms - their personal morality is just far from the more naturally "standardized" morality of Fi doms - in other words, standards that society can understand or relate to cannot effectively be applied to inferior Fi (or tert. Fi much more), since they are so highly individualized (personal) and nuanced by subconscious content, but since it is so individualized, *they're going to have trouble appreciating higher Fi in others (like Fi doms/auxes).* The higher Te in Te doms/auxes compensates for this. All types have this kind of compensatory higher function relationship for less _societally standardized_ lower functions. I would appreciate any feedback on my ideas presented here!


Maybe I didn't explain myself enough. Basically what I meant is in bold. It's kinda like imagine having to sell something to someone that they don't need or it's simply not true, dom/aux/tert Fi would probably think that's wrong/it's not them. But Fi in the inferior probably wouldn't care as much, since Te is in the control, and probably think that it's more important to sell more to get ahead. That's what I meant by they see it as a weakness. Kinda like how Ni gets data from Se, Te gets it from Fi, that's basically what you're saying, so they can't see it as a weakness since they do use Fi, but I never meant it in that way. ExTJs do use Fi, but differently. Basically, think of it this way... inferior are unconnected data points that you don't trust that much, while at the higher levels the points are more connected, and mean more to the person. When it means something personal to oneself, that's one less opportunity. Inferior Fi basically see strong convictions as a weakness, and lost opportunities. It's also like instead of competing, you sell out to your competition to make a quick buck. So imagine not seeing your idea go through, but rather just sell it to the highest bidder, or instead of writing a book series by yourself where the story and character are yours (it's basically your internal world), it's sold to someone else and they write it themselves or do whatever with it. That's what I meant.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

davd said:


> As the title said, I’d like to know how to deal with the manifestation of inferior Fi. When I was a little kid, Fi outburst would be easily expressed as an anger by snapping at people or kicking the table. Nowadays the problem is oftentimes it’s inexpressible which means whenever the inferior Fi is not in order, I am unable to use my dominant function effectively which means I am almost unable to do anything, for example, I lose my concentration and lose my effectiveness and become disorganized sometimes it causes a deep problem, for example when the inferior Fi is not being handled well, I could slide down from for number 1 to number 100 (very destructive).
> 
> I read somewhere that “the qualities of this inferior Fi become manifested in hypersensitivity to inner states, outbursts of emotion and a fear of feeling,” the reason why I think it’s better to avoid it altogether because if I’m completely devoid of it, I can avoid the depressed affect of it and I can perform well. However, sometimes it’s unavoidable; if people I deal with can not take me ignoring my own Fi, I tend to make them cry/miserable (because ignoring my own Fi would be categorized as ‘selfish, cruel, insensitive’) while I don’t mean it/I don’t want it to happen (as my Fe is pretty well developed); if I don’t ignore my own Fi due to Fe concern however I’d make my own self miserable because my dominant function can’t perform well.
> 
> ...


Fi would be my strongest function and I experience Te in a negative way when stressed.

Fi is subjective internal feeling brought on by your value system making judgments on incoming data from what is outside of yourself. 

*It looks like this for me and for you:*










While INFPs feel strongly about things on the inside, we have "economy of feeling expression", meaning we don't really express what we feel through words or body language. This makes us seem like thinking types on the outside. Fi is difficult to express because it is very abstract. It isn't your run of the mill "I'm sad"...its more of a gut feeling about what we value, we just "know" what we value, what according to our Fi is "right", 'wrong" tolerable or not. As I said Fi is abstract feelings and not pure emotion. It is rational in itself, but difficult to trace back why that is so. Typically an INFp's Fi doesn't make stupid judgments and we experience more "depth" to emotional experiences/can manage our own emotions better then other types. In order for a Fi user to be empathic, the user needs to understand what Fi is trying to get across, because understanding the other person's state comes through understanding our Fi judgments about how we would fair in the other person's place.

*How to deal with it:*

Everything you need to know is in table 3 .


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> Maybe I didn't explain myself enough. Basically what I meant is in bold. It's kinda like imagine having to sell something to someone that they don't need or it's simply not true, dom/aux/tert Fi would probably think that's wrong/it's not them. But Fi in the inferior probably wouldn't care as much, since Te is in the control, and probably think that it's more important to sell more to get ahead. That's what I meant by they see it as a weakness. Kinda like how Ni gets data from Se, Te gets it from Fi, that's basically what you're saying, so they can't see it as a weakness since they do use Fi, but I never meant it in that way. ExTJs do use Fi, but differently. Basically, think of it this way... inferior are unconnected data points that you don't trust that much, while at the higher levels the points are more connected, and mean more to the person. When it means something personal to oneself, that's one less opportunity. Inferior Fi basically see strong convictions as a weakness, and lost opportunities. It's also like instead of competing, you sell out to your competition to make a quick buck. So imagine not seeing your idea go through, but rather just sell it to the highest bidder, or instead of writing a book series by yourself where the story and character are yours (it's basically your internal world), it's sold to someone else and they write it themselves or do whatever with it. That's what I meant.


I get what you're saying, but I highly doubt this is exactly it, since the inferior functions of all types are very hypersensitive to begin with and would make the user very self-conscious about abusing them in any ways (e.g. the Te dom would actually be super aware of the moral issue here, but might not know how to effectively handle it via Fi). If the Te dom were _repressing_ the inferior to a dangerous degree for some reason, maybe this could be the case. But normally, it would be extremely difficult for any type to ignore their inferior function, since the dominant needs it to function well. What you're saying is what causes all of the silly, typist misconceptions that EXTJs = Bernie Madoff or whatever slimy CEOs exist out there (I've seen numerous mistypes because of this thinking as well, since inferior Fi is not equal to immorality, like so many Fi doms are fond of thinking).


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

I certainly do not like to discuss inferior Fi – not only it’s inferior, it’s introverted as well, what a pain in the neck! - I’d prefer facts (and making bucks? Who don’t want quick bucks?) - but what can I say we learn and we grow


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

I actually find…Being a robot is not always bad, it’s better than being slaves! And I’d like to re-declare my stance: I think my kin (I hate generalizing) is the awesomely awesome gunnery sergeant hartmans, plus we pillage we plunder we rifle and loot! Sort of thinking Martha Stewart and Bernie Mardoff are the smartest people alive (sadly they went to jail). Other than that I’m incapable of giving any meaningful feedback… maybe take it to the xNTJ sub-forum?


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## pepperpotts (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you very much @Rim, it hits the nail on the head, it’s what I’m looking for, really,really helpful! :happy:

Thanks everyone else for insightful comments and ideas!

~


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

davd said:


> Thank you very much @Rim, it hits the nail on the head, it’s what I’m looking for, really,really helpful! :happy:
> 
> Thanks everyone else for insightful comments and ideas!
> 
> ~


If you can get hold of the following book in pdf or paper copy version, it gives a more in depth analysis of when how and why inferior Fi pops up in ExTJ types, also on how they can deal with it. The summary is basically what I posted: Amazon.com: Was That Really Me?: How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality (9780891061700): Naomi L. Quenk: Books

Good luck. (its too long and I can't post the entire chapter)


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## phantom_cat (Jan 1, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> I get what you're saying, but I highly doubt this is exactly it, since the inferior functions of all types are very hypersensitive to begin with and would make the user very self-conscious about abusing them in any ways (e.g. the Te dom would actually be super aware of the moral issue here, but might not know how to effectively handle it via Fi). If the Te dom were _repressing_ the inferior to a dangerous degree for some reason, maybe this could be the case. But normally, it would be extremely difficult for any type to ignore their inferior function, since the dominant needs it to function well. What you're saying is what causes all of the silly, typist misconceptions that EXTJs = Bernie Madoff or whatever slimy CEOs exist out there (I've seen numerous mistypes because of this thinking as well, since inferior Fi is not equal to immorality, like so many Fi doms are fond of thinking).


Well, that's how I see it. In fact, I based this on a ESTJ and ENTJ I know. I never said they would turn into a slimy CEO or the like. It's just that it's lower priority for them. Why do you think a lot of salespeople are ESTJs. In fact, I had an idea that I wanted to implement, and an ESTJ told me that I should just sell it to the company I wanted to compete with. That's being a sellout. It's like finding a cure for a disease, and then just selling it to the top company, just so it doesn't get put out, with the reason being because you're unemployed, and temp solutions could be sold at high profits. I certainly see this as weakness. How about instead of stopping the bully, becoming the bully's sidekick, just so he stops picking on you. I could go on with examples. I'm not saying all are like this, but this is the way they think. I'm just using worst case scenarios. If everyone is lying, you have to as well. I definitely disagree with you here. I see different degrees of the function positions. Dom Se is different from inferior Se for example. Another example for inferior Fi is having to do something because it has to be done, but I said that it can wait because of the conditions, then they say "no, it has to be done". The hypersensitivity to inferior is probably another degree of it. Like dom Ni could be daydreaming of the future, but it could also be that "ah ha" moment. Misconception, no. But rather those are inferior Fi at its worst. All I meant was what inferior Fi saw as a missed opportunity, the other Fi users saw it a different way, more personal. I saw someone lie on their resume, because they thought they could do the work to beef up their resume. I would never do that. On a personal level that's not being truthful, but to them, they had to do it for opportunities. One is personal, the other is not. Fi is used differently here.


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## phantom_cat (Jan 1, 2011)

actually, it's kinda like developing a clean energy source to compete with the big oil companies, but since you're unemployed, being told just to sell it to those oil companies to basically shut you up.

they see it as a weakness because you added a personal meaning to solve the problem once and for all while being unemployed. while I would see it as a weakness, because they would sellout, and not solve the problem at all. basically they see it as you don't have the freedom to do it your way, so you have to give in.

The ENTJ I know cries during the national anthem on tv during sporting events. That's the hypersensitivity probably.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@phantom_cat

Your points are valid, but they're only based on a few people you know. It makes sense that you'll come across people like this in the field you speak of. I'm a teenager, so I don't know anyone who's a CEO or whatnot - thus, my experiences with the inferior Fi of the EXTJs I know has been quite different and are rarely captured by their type descriptions at all. It's just a really bad idea to perpetuate stereotypes based on a few people you know in a certain profession, which the type descriptions basically do in order to determine what professions should be geared toward which types, which is a very dirty tactic, imo, since it reduces types to crude *stereo*types in order to make this possible (I'm not making this up - it's totally true). Most of the type descriptions for the EXTJ types depict them as if they are always in a state of Fi at its worst, which will make the healthy ones go under the typing radar (seriously, I hear people complaining about this all the time online that the best EXTJs they know are nothing like the descriptions), and it is just very weird altogether, considering that most of the other type descriptions are overly positive portrayals of the types (e.g. INTPs and INFPs in particular - almost nothing negative seems to sneak into those descriptions for some reason - hell, I've even seen some that make INFPs inferior Te out to be as capable as that of an NT and the INTP descriptions be sympathetic and understanding toward their inferior Fe, while the descriptions for EXTJs go nuts about their natural "arrogance" - I swear I've seen this enough to detect plenty of bias here, as I've been feverishly researching typology for about 3 years). All of the EXTJs (mostly teachers/professors) I know would never sacrifice quality for quantity, pay off, whatever - they tend to epitomize high quality in everything they do and be among the best in their fields so far as I can tell. I might also be biased, since I can relate to them a lot as an INTJ, but nonetheless, Fi types of every level of Fi are probably going to be biased when judging each others' Fis, due to the inherent type differences' effects on them.



> All I meant was what inferior Fi saw as a missed opportunity, the other Fi users saw it a different way, more personal.


How do you know that what they might see as a missed opportunity isn't personal to them? If they care so much about pursuing it, then it is. Yes, they will take many things far less personally on average than a Fi dom, who tend to take much of what they do, no matter how futile, personally. The lower Fi users are much more selective about what attracts their Fi, which might seem *unorthodox* to the higher Fi users's much broader Fi perspectives, which are entangled in almost everything in their lives (this is how I see dom Fi relative to my own, anyhow). This doesn't mean that we forget about what we value in our decisions - our decisions reflect what we value. What you describe in your anecdotes doesn't reflect an ESTJ that doesn't use Fi much - this person is certainly using Fi, but just has a very bad Fi that their dom. Te justifies. As I said before, the dom/inferior functions always work together in pairs for the person to be able to make crucial ego-related decisions at all. Thus, the inferior function actually has the most influence over the dominant, since it works directly with the dominant. Much of what I said is what Jung says. Most of the ones I know are pretty tenacious in their pursuits, but also extremely private about what drives them, which is entirely their right. The higher Fi users probably have more complicated internal values systems, which would make it more difficult for them to violate them, but when they do, it would become more of a mess for them to deal with. Doesn't make it any more personal though. This would be like saying that my inferior Se means I have less of a need to physically accomplish anything over the higher Se users which is definitely not true. I just use it in a very individualistic way, compared to higher Se users, since it is mainly influenced by the dominant Ni that it works with. The inferior functions are the most highly aligned with the dominant functions, which results in them being highly influenced by pursuits related to one's dominant function interests. Btw, what is your type anyhow? I'm thinking a high Fi dom perhaps?


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