# Master's of Cognitive Functions You Find Goddamn Inspiring?



## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

I love Abe Lincoln as an Fi because he was so determined and caring yet incredibly intellectual. And I agree with DaVinci as the epitome of Ne. Brilliant man. I like the Ti in Einstein because he cared about people while still keeping the intelligence. Apparently these days many Ti users feel like they can be dicks to others or look at humanity in a purely objective way. At least from my observations.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

FearAndTrembling said:


> lol. My God.. Ask someone to prove something and they show you some ouija board like thing, and say "try it". This is getting quite embarrassing. I really do feel like I am in a talk about astrology. I didn't expect you to actually show me evidence, but I never thought it would be so bad. You have clearly never worked in a field where evidence and methodology were taken seriously. I feel like I am talking to a Shaman who is showing me his potions. I actually work in research, but never would have if my sources were amazon and some light bright helmet from science for kids.


It's a cheap version of a 10-20 eeg, the same system used for research in neuroscience and cognitive psychology.Somehow I doubt you work in research or any science related field since you clearly don't even know how to form a logical argument. 

If you're working in research, I really hope it's not one of the fields where people may die as a result of your research.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Stelliferous said:


> I love Abe Lincoln as an Fi because he was so determined and caring yet incredibly intellectual. And I agree with DaVinci as the epitome of Ne. Brilliant man. I like the Ti in Einstein because he cared about people while still keeping the intelligence. Apparently these days many Ti users feel like they can be dicks to others or look at humanity in a purely objective way. At least from my observations.


Abe was an Fe because his values were fundamentally social. Fe feels something, esteems something, and feels as though everyone should also, in broad sweeping collective terms. Making sweeping value statements like "I AM AGAINST BULLYING" is more typical of Fe than Fi. It's the same thing as Te complaining about this or that and Ti would rather think about it until it breaks down into nuance. Same with Fi and Fe. Fe wants to just hug and help all the victims who are probably hurting right now, and give everyone who probably hurts them a big stink eye for what they probably did. External, social, inexact. Fi can't do that, won't do that. It needs to work through it, feel it for itself, find the quiet nuance... and won't socialize or even act on any of it most likely... not until they are on the other side of it, and then it is so nuanced that it will never seem like broad strokes glaring judgments that everyone needs to get on board with.

Lincoln uses blanket Fe statements often, though in a low order context, even a touch passive-aggressively:



> It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged.


Classic Je "hey, just sayin..." just suggesting that you are horrible and evil, not drawing any conclusions about how evil you are... just broadly insinuating it in a way so that everyone here nods and sighs about how evil you are, though I'd never say such a thing. 

Lincoln was such a GOSSIP!

Fe.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

arkigos said:


> Both of those people are much more likely ESTPs. Tony Robbins - gregarious, more people-oriented, inspirer, deprioritizes blunt and thorough logic for that which inspires to action.


The people who love (quote) Anthony Robbins most - might be ESTP's. BUT, You don't think he knew exactly what he was doing, in a very deliberate but intuitive money making system kind of way? The same way there are INFJ success writers who make books they "know" ENTP's will buy? People who quote Tony Robbins follow something he figgured out how to word, package and sell to them which might have used some Ni, or I guess it could have been Ti.

Not sure about Oprah but that was an interesting comment. Maybe if she was ENFJ she would have had a few better moves by now for her "second Act"?


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> The people who love (quote) Anthony Robbins most - might be ESTP's. BUT, You don't think he knew exactly what he was doing, in a very deliberate but intuitive money making system kind of way? The same way there are INTJ success writers who make books they "know" ENTP's will buy? People who quote Tony Robbins follow something he figgured out how to word, package and sell to them which might have used some Ni, or I guess it could have been Ti.
> 
> Not sure about Oprah but that was an interesting comment. Maybe if she was ENFJ she would have had a few better moves by now for her "second Act"?


It was probably somewhat organic... but, yes, I am sure he did navigate it to success quite deliberately. Do I think he was Magneto sitting in a lair somewhere suddenly deciding to play the world by becoming Tony Robbins? No. He is an Fe, first of all, and people apparently don't give ESTP much credit if Tony Robbins couldn't be one. I think he is exactly what ESTPs tend to be... he just happens to be the best at that particular aspect of ESTP.

I don't think ENFJs think in moves or second acts or any of that. I think they think in broad principle and high-level world views.... like Obama - the key to ENFJ is not some strategic power, but how subjective and abstracted their world view is - how detached and absolute. Their 'vision' is stronger than practical realities. Then again, I think Seinfeld is an ENFJ and an example of this. The way they see it is more real to them ... almost to the point of condescension.... acting like you missed the memo somehow... but luckily with a strong Se to shake the whole thing up and let them just have a beer or crack a joke and do some (judgy but often funny) people-watching.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@_arkigos_, your inferior Fe is showing up now, in your opinion of Lincoln. Fe being altruism + gossip doesn't quite make sense. 

Fe's are the epitome of empathy but Lincoln would have had a hard choice about who to empathise with. Making a hard choice in the face of public attack and long term suffering is more of a "braveheart" kind of bargain which I think does have to be Fi. Win or lose, going to death over something because you belive it is right takes a unique personal history and circumstances, or else it is FI.

Fe needing the experience of resonance and approval answers the process behind symptoms of altruism and gossip coming from one person? In that case Lincoln would have made other choices.

I dated a guy I'm pretty sure was ESTP, a million years ago but for nearly one year duration.
Wanting someone to have mantras for you to use, is different than launching a whole system from scratch.

A customer of mine that I was pretty sure ENFJ, especially after talking to a few here, Some of these ENFJ people really know how to work a room or push the right buttons. It's not that an ENFJ is un able to be rational, Its just sooo much easier to get other people to think for you.

Obama? I think it's more of an NFP thing to opperate on ideology without having a clue about how to market it or pull it off. Marketing is not quite the same as campaigning, when it comes to systemized marketing and not just the teleprompter presentation.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> @_arkigos_, your inferior Fe is showing up now, in your opinion of Lincoln. Fe being altruism + gossip doesn't quite make sense.
> 
> Fe's are the epitome of empathy but Lincoln would have had a hard choice about who to empathise with. Making a hard choice in the face of public attack and long term suffering is more of a "braveheart" kind of bargain which I think does have to be Fi. Win or lose, going to death over something because you belive it is right takes a unique personal history and circumstances, or else it is FI.
> 
> ...


The 'GOSSIP' comment was a joke. I obviously didn't think that the Second Inaugural Address was an example of Lincoln gossiping about the South, with which he was then the instigator of a bitter war.

Fe isn't really altruism either... those terms are too narrow entirely.

Yes, an ESTP can and will launch a whole system from scratch.. though, admittedly and as you said, it will be quite the piecemeal - 90% of which would be 'open source' stuff taken from this conversation or that... I suppose the question of Tony Robbin comes down to whether or not you can imagine an exemplary ESTP, or whether an exemplary ESTP must be an INTJ who has somehow decided to surround himself with immense broad praise and endless socializing and sensory stimulus.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

ENTJ jumps easily back and forth between a sense of systems, and sensual awareness? 

Te - face the facts, what works . . . Ni - the underlying whys of human nature . . . . Se - take action and make it look good, . . . . .
Fi (inferior position) hey the market exists and I'm going to make a ton of money! Some people will be helped, and the other desperate lost puppies grabbing at straws would be doing that anyway -so let them pay me for it.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm not putting down Se dom, sometimes I'm envious of it. Is it too narrow to think ESTP is a first-rate salesman but not a sales manager? They can do sales management but according to somebody elses training. Am I being "Typist" ?

Anybody remember Zig Ziggler? Now he could be ESTP and he taught people how to sell but it's different than Tony Robbins, more cookie cutter. Ziggler keeps it strictly about what to do and say.
He might have plattitudes about attitudes but different than Robbins?


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> ENTJ jumps easily back and forth between a sense of systems, and sensual awareness?
> 
> Te - face the facts, what works . . . Ni - the underlying whys of human nature . . . . Se - take action and make it look good, . . . . .
> Fi hey the market exists and I'm going to make a ton of money! Some people will be helped, and the other desperate lost puppies grabbing at straws would be doing that anyway -so let them pay me for it.


Se prioritizes variance in experiential data... a dump of dynamics. 
Ti prioritizes rethinking what you supposedly know.
Tertiary Fe prioritizes shared esteem (isn't this the greatest thing? who wouldn't want this?), charm, working everyone up, etc.
Inferior Ni speak about destiny - and 'slogany' concepts and generally getting behind the veil to secret truths. 

Robbins shows all of these things. Now, how about this:

Te states problems, ever expanding problems in the environment, as they appear. Te can often see such problems as insurmountable if not checked by another function. Te is inclined to complain and speak bluntly - not inclined to work crowds with charm and 'isn't this great!?" but with harsh truths. ((EDIT: Though, you might hear an Fe talk about 'harsh truths', more likely say something is a harsh truth that really is a harsh value judgment (like in the case of Al Gore)... they are just trying to work you up to share their broad-strokes esteem.))

Fi seeks nuance in value, and often finds shared values to be less than genuine. You feel about it how you will, and I'll feel how I will... leave me alone and stop forcing me to talk about it or agree with you. Same thing as Ti would do, but with esteem. No bandwagoning, no charm and "isn't it great? c'mon... aw there's that smile!" 

Gregariousness and Fe walk hand in hand. Nothing could be less natural for an xNTJ. Look at the gregariousness of Zuckerberg and Hitchens... or Fry, or Sagan. They aren't in the least this way.



Old Intern said:


> I'm not putting down Se dom, sometimes I'm envious of it. Is it too narrow to think ESTP is a first-rate salesman but not a sales manager? They can do sales management but according to somebody elses training. Am I being "Typist" ?


You aren't giving ESTP enough credit by a margin, but I don't know if that is typist or not.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> ENTJ jumps easily back and forth between a sense of systems, and sensual awareness?
> 
> Te - face the facts, what works . . . Ni - the underlying whys of human nature . . . . Se - take action and make it look good, . . . . .
> Fi (inferior position) hey the market exists and I'm going to make a ton of money! Some people will be helped, and the other desperate lost puppies grabbing at straws would be doing that anyway -so let them pay me for it.


I jump very easily from vision to reality. I think that's a better way of putting it. As for integrity, I have principles and integrity, they just happen to be very utilitarian most of the time. 

As I see it: 

XNTJ - tendency to Te-clobber people. Te = baseball bat. 

XNTP - Tendency to nitpick people to death. Ti = Scalpel 

XNFJ - Tendency to manipulate everyone into killing/out-debating people for them. Fe = Rage virus from 28 days later.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Ti/Fe relative truth and an understanding of what will fly socially - context and approach matters.

Te/Fi absolutes that can seem harsh.

An ENTP can seem crass but there is an underlying flexibility (if you have some real reasons). 

When you are on the bad side of an ENTJ you might be in deep shit - Stand up and win or loose but be prepared to walk away.

Bad side of ESTP? - make a gesture of politeness and then negotiate, they have limits and will tell you what those limits are - in an upbeat but direct way.

ESTJ? I have not got a clue, I give them a wide birth, almost like creatures from another planet.

ISTJ - neurotic with a self righteous tone of voice that amost killed me - like a lobster boiling in a pot? Cushion of Si on the Fi confused me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> Fe for you, Ne for me (dislike of detail) *BUT INTJ's are known for being anal or neurotically
> devoted to detail.*


Really depends on what you mean by details. I often find that in terms of intertype, wrong detail focus is because of not sharing functions, and/or rationality-irrationality. I think Ne types have wrong idea about detail because they have no point, Ti is fucking anal in the wrong ways, Te lacking depth and missing the point, Fe just wrong focus all together etc.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@*ephemereality* Sounds like you have an axe to grind? Or did I come across as antagonistic? Ne will sometimes find INTJ's (more often ISTJ's) doing the perfectly right thing in a situation where nobody else cares about how perfect it is, or that particular process is not going to be the thing that the project can live or die on. That being said, sometimes an INTJ can save an ENTP's butt because the Ni-Te saves one from problems that go beyond the project.

Fe according to the basics this whole site is about, is the opposit of logical details.

The way I see it is Te dom is judgement directed by a drive to discern and conquer or cut losses.
Ti is more of a drive to explain and sort - making decisions about what will go into and what will stay out of a particular system.

In line with *OP* Don Draper is my hero in this video
To me this is Ti because he has thought about his choices in life, and other people can take it or leave it. Hes calm, precise and on topic (like a knife) with what he says.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> Ne will sometimes find INTJ's (more often ISTJ's) doing the perfectly right thing in a situation where nobody else cares about how perfect it is, or that particular process is not going to be the thing that the project can live or die on. That being said, sometimes an INTJ can save an ENTP's butt because the Ni-Te saves one from problems that go beyond the project.


Hrm... I actually don't think this is true in relation to INTJs. I think that any 'perfectionism' from INTJs tends to be centered around a vision or an aesthetic... which itself is tied back into vision. Example: My mother, and INTJ, runs a flower shop. The only time she interacts with details, or micromanages, is when whatever is happening reflects on what she sees as the essential value .. the... not soul, symbolism? in a business sense, of her brand. Brand is a really big deal... she wants people to associate her business name with certain ideas, or ideals. She wants to be synonymous with quality or industry and thinks that if she is in line with these utilitarian ideals, and is seen to be such, she will succeed. To this end she has a really strong and consistent aesthetic, uses power colors, and is always innovating in a very divination/scrutinizing way. She had to move locations recently, and the thought that went into a new location was so high level. She thought in terms of the essence of the building, the feel of the neighborhood - in terms of how it my symbolically represent in people's minds, the individuals mindset as they drove by... what they might be thinking or doing in blanket terms, what symbolic aspect the sign on her shop might invoke for them at that time, in that moment - conceptually.

Those are the sort of 'details' she focuses on, and I think that is exactly how INTJ and ENTJ are. 'abstract' details? Not sure how else to state that. 




Old Intern said:


> In line with *OP* Don Draper is my hero in this video
> To me this is Ti because he has thought about his choices in life, and other people can take it or leave it. Hes calm, precise and on topic (like a knife) with what he says.


Wait, what type do you think he is? ENTP? Please don't say ENTP.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

In a link off to another site . . . someone typed Mother Theresa as ISFJ

My assesment is ISFP - Fi on a mission, and Se could not look away from the suffering but must act, even if it seemed like bailing the ocean with a teaspoon. "we are not called to be sucessful, just faithful". 

Fe mistaken for altruism when it is more like empathy (not the same). Empathy- in the moment resonance, and the need for that connection, a need to be needed, not the same as self sacrafice for a cause. . . . . well?

I love D*on Draper example of Ti,* maybe istp.
*Yes INTJ's have a sense of mission* but they can only see their own tunnel vison of what the mission is. -have an INTJ friend with an MBA who is clueless about selling. Even though he knows all the righteous lists of shoulds about marketing, He can't pull his head out of his ass to understand what something seems like to his buyers.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> *Yes INTJ's have a sense of mission* but they can only see their own tunnel vison of what the mission is.


Well, I wouldn't call that tunnel vision, as it's the process of converge different ideas into a system, but to be honest I don't have a strong impulse for creating a real system for a mission, as I can live having a hazy internal model for such purposes, which I only would refine if I have to express it via Te.

Now, as you don't value Ni that process seems to be pointless and narrow-minded, while for me Ne is too random and divergent, thing that I suspect would even go to absurd levels if Ti or Fi doesn't act as a good filter. As you see, our points of views are different because we have a different kind of cognition, you value Ne-Ti-Fe-Si, while I do the same with Ni-Te-Fi-Se. From an objective standpoint both processes have pros and cons, so none is really better than the other, simply that my perspective is influenced by my functions, therefore Ne seems rather difficult to follow thanks to it's random nature.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@*Blue Flare * *I do value NI*; I'm just showing a contrast to make a point, basically the same point you are making. 

Having worked for myself with a variety of retailers and start-ups - entreprenurial people, can come from all types. They opperate from different strengths. *My INTJ friend has a nice life, and *profited from being able to sell a few different specific technologies to companies who benefit from his particular standards and insights. He only needed one, two, or three customers.
I on the other hand need to be able to belive and concieve of multiple possible solutions, and be able to do the mental gymnastics to understand a variety of people with different objectives.

I dont accept randomness as a definition for Ne, only a symptom of what it looks like from the outside. We make different connections from a broader, causation/possibilities perspective. What if, is not the same thing as spouting nonesense (this expreses some bias on my part, I'm sure).


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Old Intern said:


> I dont accept randomness as a definition for Ne, only a symptom of what it looks like from the outside. We make different connections from a broader, causation/possibilities perspective. What if, is not the same thing as spouting nonesense (this expreses some bias on my part, I'm sure).


As someone who has spent a lot of time in an Ne-heavy environment lately, it does seem random to me a lot of the time. I think the expression "throw dogshit at the wall until something sticks" is quite accurate. Then again, these meetings have also struck me as being Fi/Fe heavy at times which I find equally exhausting. It's one of those "Why do you care so much about these pointless details, I made up my mind before we even came here, make a decision and be clear please!"


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Scelerat said:


> As someone who has spent a lot of time in an Ne-heavy environment lately, it does seem random to me a lot of the time. I think the expression "throw dogshit at the wall until something sticks" is quite accurate. Then again, these meetings have also struck me as being Fi/Fe heavy at times which I find equally exhausting. It's one of those "Why do you care so much about these pointless details, I made up my mind before we even came here, make a decision and be clear please!"


My experience with Ne is more that the ideas get too expansive... like there are so many great ideas that there are TOO many... and more significantly that the ideas go straight to the ceiling and beyond... up into archetypical / change the very foundation of the universe stuff...

Like, you have an application that lacks this feature you need... the Ne in the room, especially if they dominate the room, will be so bored by the idea of fixing it, they will think 'you know what would be great.. if we scrapped this crappy application and did THIS instead... it would be so much better' 

....and another says 'YES! ..but, actually, we could scrap the idea of an application altogether, and instead rethink the whole process...'

"Oh, you are right! In fact, why have a process at all. If we reconceptualize our business model, we eliminate the need for this process in any form."

"So clever! After that, it doesn't make sense to sell what we sell, and I was thinking we could really get into a niche selling X."

"Brilliant! And, we could delegate all that out to the manufacturer and streamline the process to exclude the need for an office, employees, and, dare I say, a business at all."

"True! I think that really solves the core of it. Well then, I guess we are done here..."


Obviously an exaggeration, but I very much find this is what happens with Ne types, especially Ne-doms. They zoom out and zoom out and reconceptualize and reframe so freely, that in the end the ideas are just too high level and BIG to be tenable at all. No idea or project just is what it is... it always has to be reframed to something that uproots the whole process into something new.

There is always a more META idea, and why stick with what we have when there is better?


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

I plan how to get other people to do planning for me. I'm just not as smooth, seamless or demanding as some ENFJ's I've witnessed. 
And I do like to think . . . . far enough to get things started anyway.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Old Intern said:


> I plan how to get other people to do planning for me. I'm just not as smooth, seamless or demanding as some ENFJ's I've witnessed.
> And I do like to think . . . . far enough to get things started anyway.


When I bother to plan, I do well at it. I include details other people miss and my plans are systematic in nature. I'll make plans if necessary, but avoid roles that require that I make a lot of plans. If I willingly take the role of leader, it's because I feel strongly about what I'm doing and I couldn't find someone else I trusted to do it.


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