# Getting off to the fantasy of a person other than your significant other.



## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I'm wondering how common, or uncommon it is, for people to be able to get off to the fantasy of someone other than the person they are with (romantic relationship).
> 
> - Maybe the idea of anyone else simply doesn't do it for you in that way/no desire for others? Would it still take a while after breaking up to still be able to get off to anyone else? (Getting the thought of only your partner out of your system for a while?/Taking a while to even move on enough to think about anyone else in that way?)
> 
> ...


I do this on occasion. I don't feel bad about it, though I used to when I was younger. I just do it when we've reached a point during sex that she's ready for me to climax, and it can sometimes help me do that to have sexual images of someone I was with. I certainly don't say anything to my girlfriend about this as I know she'd see this as more threatening and hurtful than it actually is. She and I have actually spoken in depth about our prior sexual experiences, however, so it's not like I hide my sexual history from her in general.

As for why, I think it's because for guy's there's a sexual allure to sexual variety. It's sexually stimulating. To me it's quite distinct from cheating as it's not a betrayal. I'm not emotionally involved with the memory of another partner, longing to be with her as opposed to her body, so to speak. 

I dont' feel I'm betraying her trust that I'm sexually exclusive to her now and going forward, and that is one line I wouldn't cross. Instead of prospectively having that sexual variety, I am having it retrospectively and non-physically. 

I would suspect that this is more common among men than women given that men tend to be more stimulated by sexual images than are women, though I'm limited to my own conceptualization of this in that I don't feel any emotional component to this.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

It's sad to me that anyone would need to picture an ex when having sex with their current partner. Especially when it comes to when they are having an orgasm. That is harmful. And it's depressing as fuck. I wonder why men like this bother dating someone to begin with, if they have to picture another woman when they are in bed with the current woman.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Eerie said:


> It's sad to me that anyone would need to picture an ex when having sex with their current partner. Especially when it comes to when they are having an orgasm. That is harmful. And it's depressing as fuck. I wonder why men like this bother dating someone to begin with, if they have to picture another woman when they are in bed with the current woman.


Do you feel it's harmful to a relationship for one partner to look at porn (not excessively, but at all)? 

If you believe that there's more to a substantial relationship than mere physical attraction, why is this necessarily so harmful or negative? I'm deeply emotionally involved with my SO.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Do you feel it's harmful to a relationship for one partner to look at porn (not excessively, but at all)?
> 
> If you believe that there's more to a substantial relationship than mere physical attraction, why is this necessarily so harmful or negative? I'm deeply emotionally involved with my SO.


Yes, and my partner also thinks it's harmful to watch porn period. Relationship or not. Imagine that. Just because there's more to a relationship than attraction doesn't mean it's not harmful to be attracted to other women, or imagine fucking them when you're fucking your partner.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Do you feel it's harmful to a relationship for one partner to look at porn (not excessively, but at all)?
> 
> If you believe that there's more to a substantial relationship than mere physical attraction, why is this necessarily so harmful or negative? I'm deeply emotionally involved with my SO.


I think it's harmful because it trains the individual (both through oxytocin production and through subconscious association) to be open to sex with other people.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I see what you are saying about masturbation just being there to release sexual tension, but why couldn't someone masturbate thinking about their partner? (I say this because I do, for example.)
> 
> I'm more curious about why someone would choose people other than their partner to fantasize about during masturbation. Variety? Partner isn't as 'hot'?


Fantasies can have an element of unattainability. You don't need to fantasise about a partner, when masturbating, because you have the real thing available. You can do the real thing later. Where's the fantasy in that?

So perhaps that's why people fantasise about others.

Personally, when I masturbate, I don't fantasise about a specific person. I'm more focussed on sensations.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

I don't think I've ever seen the imaginary faces of my imaginary ladies when masturbating, so while it's not always necessarily the SO at the time, it's not really anyone specifically different either.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Erbse said:


> I don't think I've ever seen the imaginary faces of my imaginary ladies when masturbating, so while it's not always necessarily the SO at the time, it's not really anyone specifically different either.


Is that a type thing? I'm the same. It's a faceless figment of the fantasy. No-one in particular.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> Fantasies can have an element of unattainability. You don't need to fantasise about a partner, when masturbating, because you have the real thing available. You can do the real thing later. Where's the fantasy in that?


Personally, I'm only attracted to my partner, and I'd only fantasize about who I was attracted to, therefore....


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

When my girlfriend and I were long distance I fantasized about her frequently and almost exclusively, but now that we're living together I don't fantasize about her as much because she's there for me to experience on a daily basis. Also, there are things I enjoy fantasizing about that my girlfriend would not be interested in doing with me and I feel it would be disrespectful of me to fantasize about her in situations I know she would not consent to in reality, so I would prefer to think of other people during those fantasies.

Though I rarely fantasize about people while masturbating, fantasizing to me is a warm up activity before actual act, when I do it's usually a faceless body or if they have a face they're no one that I know physically exists. 

When thinking of actual people, I have on occasion thought about people that I've been with in the past, rather than my girlfriend, because everyone I've been with has had different technique or been rather exceptionally good at something different than the things my girlfriend is good at and I enjoy fantasizing about and mentally reliving those sensations even if I have no desire to be with them again in any kind of relationship.

Fantasizing about people not your SO does not make it 'easier' to cheat on someone. Someone may find it easier to fantasize about people not their SO _because_ they find it easy to cheat but then again, they may not. Fantasy and reality are not the same one does not imply similarity in the other; a person can have a limitless number of fantasies that they have no interest or intention with making reality. Someone can fantasize about felching without any intention of doing it, can have rape fantasies without any desire to be raped, can enjoy exhibitionist fantasies despite being completely turned off by exhibitionism in reality, and a person can fantasize about sex with a person not their SO without any interest in or desire to actually have sex with that person.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Cruciferae said:


> Fantasizing about people not your SO does not make it 'easier' to cheat on someone.


It's mental preparation for physical cheating. Like getting psyched up before a sports game. The power of visualization!


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## Drewbie (Apr 28, 2010)

timeless said:


> It's mental preparation for physical cheating. Like getting psyched up before a sports game. The power of visualization!


For someone with the intention of cheating that's true, but fantasy is not intent.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Cruciferae said:


> For someone with the intention of cheating that's true, but fantasy is not intent.


Intention is irrelevant in this case, because the connection formed is on the biological level (oxytocin) and on the subconscious level (association) and both are out of the scope of conscious intent.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I'm wondering how common, or uncommon it is, for people to be able to get off to the fantasy of someone other than the person they are with (romantic relationship).
> 
> - Maybe the idea of anyone else simply doesn't do it for you in that way/no desire for others? Would it still take a while after breaking up to still be able to get off to anyone else? (Getting the thought of only your partner out of your system for a while?/Taking a while to even move on enough to think about anyone else in that way?)
> 
> ...


You might find the following book to be most instructive: Amazon.com: My Secret Garden: Women's Sexual Fantasies (9780671019877): Nancy Friday: Books

I myself am finding it very eye-opening.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

It would be incredibly common, if not the norm. I have no problem with it. Your mind is your own and you can do what you like with it. The idea of my partner trying to control my thoughts bothers me.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Luke said:


> It would be incredibly common, if not the norm. I have no problem with it. Your mind is your own and you can do what you like with it. The idea of my partner trying to control my thoughts bothers me.


Your body is also your own, and you can do what you like with it - but most in a relationship -choose- not to have sex with anyone outside of the relationship. In my mind, I have no desire for men other than my significant other. 

I also don't get how most people can agree emotional cheating exists, even if theres no physical manifestation of it - like shes spending her time cuddling up with the other guy.. yet, people will say that sexual fantasizing isn't cheating, though it exists in the same place as the emotional cheating, the physical manifestation, sex, not being played out any more than the cuddling with the person they are emotionally cheating with. Basically, if sexual fantasy and emotional cheating exists in the same place, and are only the thoughts and emotions without the physical manifestations; why is one cheating, and the other is not - when the physical manifestation of either is clearly cheating? A person who is emotionally cheating could just as easily have no true desire to leave their partner and marry the one they have these feelings for, just like those who claim they have no intentions of actually having sex with those in their fantasy.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

timeless said:


> Intention is irrelevant in this case, because the connection formed is on the biological level (oxytocin) and on the subconscious level (association) and both are out of the scope of conscious intent.


This. Yep, its already real in the mind. Your mind and body feel like it happened, so how is that not real. The only thing separating the fantasy from the physical action is skin rubbing against skin - which in itself is the meaningless part. The mind had experienced the sexual act.

There are several studies that show how hormone levels and neurotransmitters are affected in men who use porn. These are things that make your mind and body feel a bond with the object of fantasy. If thats not emotional cheating, or just flat out cheating.. well.


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I had some alternate ideas:
> 
> - People are afraid of putting all their eggs into one basket. A guy I knew said that he wanted a sort of safety net in case his gf left him. He wanted at least the fantasy of another person to comfort him and make him feel like shes not the only one in the world who would want him.


As mentioned in your next paragraph, it's a case of wanting more than what one already has. There is no need for it, and it cheapens what is already there. But the attitude of "more, more, more" extends to this for some people, and they are either too greedy or too insecure to just maintain their focus on one individual. Just another toy to have, and there are more toys to play with when the favorite one breaks or no longer becomes fun.



> - Too immature to understand what they have. A person can take another for granted, and think that they have that s/o on lockdown, but they want to have their cake and eat it too.. more. This is an unfortunate product of capitalism, I think, where the message is that nothing is ever good enough, theres always something better, and maybe not even better, but different.. or.. just.. -more- stuff. It doesn't respect the quality of the emotional connection at all. It degrades the value of it.


I personally believe that one of the conditions for the contract of a relationship should be that the parties are entering into it under the notion that eachother are what they each find ideal, not "good enough for right now".



Promethea said:


> I'm wondering how common, or uncommon it is, for people to be able to get off to the fantasy of someone other than the person they are with (romantic relationship).
> 
> - Maybe the idea of anyone else simply doesn't do it for you in that way/no desire for others? Would it still take a while after breaking up to still be able to get off to anyone else? (Getting the thought of only your partner out of your system for a while?/Taking a while to even move on enough to think about anyone else in that way?)


When people move on is a personal thing, and has a lot to do with the dynamics of how/why/when the relationship ended, but if it meant anything to either party then it isn't something that happens automatically. Deciding to go with another person (or indulge in fantasies of such) just because they meet some immediate perceived need, and not because they are ideal to you is simply consumption, and not connection. There are few things worse than being used, or using someone else.



> - Or maybe getting off to someone else is as easy as it is with your partner? I'm curious if this is the case, isn't it easier to physically cheat on them as well? If not, whats to stop a person from physically cheating if they are aroused by other people? (Is it simply denying the desire to have sex with them? What mechanism actually stops it from happening?)


If there is a conscious desire or notion of sexual arousal via another person than the medium is irrelevant, it indicates that one's mind and emotions are not totally connected and exclusive to their partner and that lessens the bond. Integrity and honesty are vital in a relationship, and this is a violation of such.



Eerie said:


> It's sad to me that anyone would need to picture an ex when having sex with their current partner. Especially when it comes to when they are having an orgasm. That is harmful. And it's depressing as fuck. I wonder why men like this bother dating someone to begin with, if they have to picture another woman when they are in bed with the current woman.





Promethea said:


> I too have a high sex drive, and when I'm in love, I have zero desire to think about anyone else.. its like, why would I want to, and how could I enjoy it.


The bond I share with my partner means that they are the sole correlation to any sexual desires I might have. In a relationship, sex with them is the only type of sexual gratification I require - emotionally, mentally, and physically. 

If someone isn't over a previous partner and still retains some form of oxytocin bond to them that relates with sexual desire, then they have no business entering into a relationship with another. It cheapens the relationship, and to them the new person is simply a commodity to be used to fulfill the fantasies they still harbor for their previous partner.


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## lifeisanillusion (Feb 21, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I see what you are saying about masturbation just being there to release sexual tension, but why couldn't someone masturbate thinking about their partner? (I say this because I do, for example.)
> 
> I'm more curious about why someone would choose people other than their partner to fantasize about during masturbation. Variety? Partner isn't as 'hot'?


I think that it could mean that the relationship is not healthy and that it is time for both people to move on. I was involved in one such relationship and I remember constantly getting off or the masturbating to the idea of her having sex with someone else. We hadn't had sex in like 1-2 months. I don't think it was that I was bad in bed, but she didn't love me anymore and wouldn't have sex with me. This was very unhealthy for me as it just brought me a lot of shame. Would have been better to face reality and end the relationship. 

I do remember fantasizing about other girls as well, but I think the above scenario was more common. And then when she left me for someone else; I got off to the idea of her having sex with him. I had really low self esteem and didn't feel I deserved her on any one else. So fantasy became an easier means to cope with that then face reality.


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

Discovery Channel :: News - Animals :: Sexy Strangers Sway How Men See Mates



> Exposure to attractive, flirtatious women may cause men to hold their current mates in lower esteem after such encounters, suggest the results of a provocative new study


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Amenophis said:


> Discovery Channel :: News - Animals :: Sexy Strangers Sway How Men See Mates


Yep, in my research I have seen studies that definitely show how indulging it in mentally causes actual problems in the relationship. It turns the male off of his female mate more, basically.

Can Your Brain Become Hardwired to Porn?


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Yep, in my research I have seen studies that definitely show how indulging it in mentally causes actual problems in the relationship. It turns the male off of his female mate more, basically.
> 
> Can Your Brain Become Hardwired to Porn?


 
People say I'm crazy for holding these beliefs. But I'm not crazy, I'm observant.

Porn is just another form of fantasizing about someone. Looking at porn while in a relationship is the same as fantasizing about another person while in a relationship. And these studies show that it devalues your partner in your mind when you do so. When you fantasize about someone else, you devalue your partner and thus devalue the relationship. Its so obvious a conclusion, that I'm shocked when other people just don't understand.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> Intention is irrelevant in this case, because the connection formed is on the biological level (oxytocin) and on the subconscious level (association) and both are out of the scope of conscious intent.


Is engaging in a role-playing rape fantasy with your SO preparing you for rape?

Does a gay person engaging in straight sex prepare themselves for heterosexuality?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> Is engaging in a role-playing rape fantasy with your SO preparing you for rape?
> 
> Does a gay person engaging in straight sex prepare themselves for heterosexuality?


Well, yikes.. a rape fantasy doesn't sound the least bit healthy in the first place, so who knows.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Amenophis said:


> People say I'm crazy for holding these beliefs. But I'm not crazy, I'm observant.
> 
> Porn is just another form of fantasizing about someone. Looking at porn while in a relationship is the same as fantasizing about another person while in a relationship. And these studies show that it devalues your partner in your mind when you do so. When you fantasize about someone else, you devalue your partner and thus devalue the relationship. Its so obvious a conclusion, that I'm shocked when other people just don't understand.


First of all, I want to make sure that we're excluding something rising to the level of addiction here. We can all agree that an outright addiction is not healthy. That previously cited article uses examples of addiction to make the point (e.g. the John Mayer example). This isn't a very useful focus for our discussion - I think we all agree that that extreme use of porn is destructive. 

(That article also seems to rely upon anecdotal, or at least non-peer reviewed evidence. I'd like to see something more reliable.)

Let's also make sure that you know I'm not pooh-pooh'ing the idea that you can overstimulate yourself. I know that the use of violent video games changes the brain in a way that simulates PTSD to a degree. The mind-body distinction is far less than we have traditionally believed. All of that said, _any_ form of stimulation can dull the senses - I don't think that that means we should avoid stimulation. 

What I am discussing here is less than that, an occasional use of porn for further stimulation by someone who has an ongoing sexual relationship with a SO. 

The concept that oxytocin must be "consumed" only with one's significant other or else you are diminishing the value and sexual attraction to that SO is frankly being very exaggerated here. It also fails to account for different ways in which porn may be used. 

For example, some couples watch porn together, get stimulated together, and then have sex. Is that an example of "devaluing" one's SO and reducing stimulation? To me, it's the opposite, that is _adding_ variety and stimulation to the relationship through one other means. 

Frankly any variety to sex would seem to put a couple at risk of being bored to the way of thinking being espoused here. For every new position or fantasy you try out with your SO, there are fewer new positions and fantasies to try out and diminishing marginal returns for each new one. 

Ok, let's accept that as true. Doesn't that mean, however, that we're all bound to lose interest in sex with our SO's over time regardless of whether we add stimulation or not? 

In fact, wouldn't that mean that adding stimulation like porn would actually be _productive_ by _prolonging_ sexual stimulation in the relationship? 

I referenced that I have occasionally used mental images of past partners to help me get off. I called it retrospective mental porn, but it's actually "healthier" than porn given one thing - it is realistic as opposed to a depiction of someone with the proverbial porn-perfect body and raring-to-go porn personality. Is this not a valid distinction. 

Finally, I find myself often romanticizing my spouse's body, imagining away imperfections as I'm having sex. I don't think about those couple of extra wrinkles on her rear end, the scar on her stomach, etc. In that sense I'm adding "unjustified" dopamine to the mix, am I not? 

Again, I recognize the additive qualities of dopamine - it's been compared to heroin in terms of the brain's response to it. The extreme way in which this is being argued seems unjustifiably shrill, and has the tone to it of going beyond science and moralizing.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Well, yikes.. a rape fantasy doesn't sound the least bit healthy in the first place, so who knows.


It's not my cup of tea and I've never engaged in what I'd call that (light bondage, with me as the dominant, but not rape), but it's certainly not unheard of. 

And again I'll point out that the "healthy/unhealthy" characterizations seem silly to me when you're talking about consenting adults in a loving relationship willingly engaging in fantasies they like.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Is engaging in a role-playing rape fantasy with your SO preparing you for rape?
> 
> Does a gay person engaging in straight sex prepare themselves for heterosexuality?


These analogies are off the mark. The first one isn't relevant because the connection that I'm asserting happens between an individual and another individual, not an individual and an action. The theory here is that training the brain to see other people as an object of sexual desire (and rewarding the brain through oxytocin for thinking so) as well as the subconscious association weakens the bond between partners and opens the door for cheating. It's not that all people who do this will cheat, but rather, they are more susceptible to cheating because they have positively reinforced the idea of having sex with someone other than their SO.

The second one is not relevant because people other than heterosexuals can have straight sex, so it's not logical that straight sex would beget the exclusiveness required of the definition of "heterosexuality." You could more accurately (but still not quite right) say that it prepares them for bisexuality, if they're enjoying it. Of course, at that point, they'd probably be considered bisexual anyway.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> For example, some couples watch porn together, get stimulated together, and then have sex. Is that an example of "devaluing" one's SO and reducing stimulation? To me, it's the opposite, that is _adding_ variety and stimulation to the relationship through one other means.


This is obviously a case of two people settling for each other. I would never put myself in such a humiliating situation where my significant other is dangling porn in front of my face. Its like saying 'hey watch me think someone is hotter than you, able to please me better, and is generally more appealing, and watch this other woman make my dick hard.' I personally don't get off on being humiliated.

And I believe jealousy is natural.. its a mechanism to try to preserve loyalty in mates. A natural response to seeing your mate get an erection to another woman should be outrage, or fear.. not arousal.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> It's not my cup of tea and I've never engaged in what I'd call that (light bondage, with me as the dominant, but not rape), but it's certainly not unheard of.
> 
> And again I'll point out that the "healthy/unhealthy" characterizations seem silly to me when you're talking about consenting adults in a loving relationship willingly engaging in fantasies they like.


I don't think its silly to say that liking a rape fantasy seems unhealthy. What is at work in that person's psyche to get off to the idea of forcing himself on some helpless victim?


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

> What I am discussing here is less than that, an occasional use of porn for further stimulation by someone who has an ongoing sexual relationship with a SO.


One of the key points others have espoused in this thread is that in a healthy relationship, there is no _need _for any external stimuli.


> For example, some couples watch porn together, get stimulated together, and then have sex. Is that an example of "devaluing" one's SO and reducing stimulation? To me, it's the opposite, that is _adding_ variety and stimulation to the relationship through one other means.
> 
> Frankly any variety to sex would seem to put a couple at risk of being bored to the way of thinking being espoused here. For every new position or fantasy you try out with your SO, there are fewer new positions and fantasies to try out and diminishing marginal returns for each new one.
> 
> Ok, let's accept that as true. Doesn't that mean, however, that we're all bound to lose interest in sex with our SO's over time regardless of whether we add stimulation or not?


Being experimental in the bedroom does not require viewing others for sexual stimulation. It's like watching any other type of unrealistic fiction and believing you can make your own life mirror that, and that anything less is unsatisfying. Couples can find new ways to indulge one another via open and honest communication and imagination.

Believe it or not some people remain in fulfilling marriages for decades without the need any type of further stimulation beyond their partner. When you're with someone you connect on a non-superficial level, things don't get mundane.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I don't think its silly to say that liking a rape fantasy seems unhealthy. What is at work in that person's psyche to get off to the idea of forcing himself on some helpless victim?


Women have rape fantasies too. I would say it's more common amongst women, but I don't have a reference to support this.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> I don't think its silly to say that liking a rape fantasy seems unhealthy. What is at work in that person's psyche to get off to the idea of forcing himself on some helpless victim?


So any dominance/submission in sex is unhealthy?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> This is *obviously* a case of two people settling for each other. I would never put myself in such a humiliating situation where my significant other is dangling porn in front of my face. Its like saying 'hey watch me think someone is hotter than you, able to please me better, and is generally more appealing, and watch this other woman make my dick hard.' I personally don't get off on being humiliated.
> 
> And I believe jealousy is natural.. its a mechanism to try to preserve loyalty in mates. A natural response to seeing your mate get an erection to another woman should be outrage, or fear.. not arousal.


Whenever someone attempts to assert an argument as being self-evident, my antenna go up. Why "obviously". I would posit that there are a lot of people who would disagree with you.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> So any dominance/submission in sex is unhealthy?


That is not what I said.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> Whenever someone attempts to assert an argument as being self-evident, my antenna go up. Why "obviously". I would posit that there are a lot of people who would disagree with you.


For people in a committed relationship, there is a sense of wanting to be loyal, and wanting your mate to be loyal. Its kinda the foundation of the romantic relationship - fidelity. Pretending to be disloyal (imagining sex with others) is playing pretend that the very relationship is threatened. Something in the psyche is drawn to that taboo idea maybe.. 'the person i'm committed to, having another' but I would not say this is healthy either. What causes such a fixation. People can say 'its only fantasy' all they like, but the particular fantasy comes from something.. and this particular fantasy is creating an attachment with hormones and neurotransmitters, to someone other than the mate. 

I'd also like to ask, why exactly is it that people in a relationship don't want their significant others to have sex with other people: std, pregnancy, etc - is it really that they are only worried about the physical repercussions that are possible? Well, of course not.. it would -hurt-. It would just feel shitty. So, if we are only taking out the physical element here, and using fantasy.. is it not still possible for the same pain to exist?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> For people in a committed relationship, there is a sense of wanting to be loyal, and wanting your mate to be loyal. Its kinda the foundation of the romantic relationship - fidelity. Pretending to be disloyal (imagining sex with others) is playing pretend that the very relationship is threatened. Something in the psyche is drawn to that taboo idea maybe.. 'the person i'm committed to, having another' but I would not say this is healthy either. What causes such a fixation. People can say 'its only fantasy' all they like, but the particular fantasy comes from something.. and this particular fantasy is creating an attachment with hormones and neurotransmitters, to someone other than the mate.
> 
> I'd also like to ask, why exactly is it that people in a relationship don't want their significant others to have sex with other people: std, pregnancy, etc - is it really that they are only worried about the physical repercussions that are possible? Well, of course not.. it would -hurt-. It would just feel shitty. So, if we are only taking out the physical element here, and using fantasy.. is it not still possible for the same pain to exist?


Maybe I haven't explained what I do - and it's only on occasion - clearly enough. 

The foreplay is all about my partner. We look each other in teh eye. We talk, we flirt, we touch, we kiss, etc. It's her that I'm doing that with, and not imagining anyone else. She's the one arousing me. I have no difficulty with that arousal, and really don't need any "help" outside of her own skills. Frankly, there are times I'm just aroused by her when she's not doing much of anything. 

The sex is all about her too. I know what she likes and provide it to her. I let her give me what I like. We have always had "interludes" during intercourse where we slow things down and talk romantically, sometimes about our future together, sometimes about how great we feel, whatever. Again, it's all about her and us for me. 

After sex, we lay together and talk, cuddle, touch, fall asleep. Again, it's just us. 

I read recently that a guy's orgasm lasts on average 6 seconds. If you liberally assume that I'm having these "harmful" images of other women in my head for 30 seconds as a build-up to that, then you're talking about typically less than 1% of the total time, from the foreplay beginning to the cuddling ending when that's been a part of anything. All of that dopamine has been directed towards her otherwise. 

I don't spend my entire time picturing or wishing for someone else. I also don't even do this every time. My sex life with my GF is the best I've ever had and it's wonderful, mind-blowing. I'll just say it flatly, there's no harm being done here.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> These analogies are off the mark. The first one isn't relevant because the connection that I'm asserting happens between an individual and another individual, not an individual and an action. The theory here is that training the brain to see other people as an object of sexual desire (and rewarding the brain through oxytocin for thinking so) as well as the subconscious association weakens the bond between partners and opens the door for cheating. It's not that all people who do this will cheat, but rather, they are more susceptible to cheating because they have positively reinforced the idea of having sex with someone other than their SO.


Slight tangent here (though not a useless one), but I think you're being falsely selective about what oxytocin does and does not reinforce. I don't buy the argument that oxytocin only reinforces attraction to a person and not to the activities you engage in with that person - let's call it the "smart oxytocin" argument. 

My understanding of the way that psychological or chemical reward happens is that the animal or person associates their activities with the reward, that is everything they can associate with the reward. 

Push the lever - get the pellet. I've never heard of the hamster getting confused if someone installed a different lever. 

All of this is to say that it makes no sense to me that a consensual rape fantasy would be any less reinforced by that oxytocin than would imagining images of a past lover during sex with your current one. In fact, the rape fantasy involves direct action associated with the fantasy, and moreover it's an interactive fantasy reciprocated by one's lover and therefore even more reinforced. How on earth could that be _less_ "brain training" than imagining images of a past lover during sex with your current one?

Again, I'd love to see some hard, reliable data here to support what you're contending, and especially to the extent that you're contending it.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> Maybe I haven't explained what I do - and it's only on occasion - clearly enough.
> 
> The foreplay is all about my partner. We look each other in teh eye. We talk, we flirt, we touch, we kiss, etc. It's her that I'm doing that with, and not imagining anyone else. She's the one arousing me. I have no difficulty with that arousal, and really don't need any "help" outside of her own skills. Frankly, there are times I'm just aroused by her when she's not doing much of anything.
> 
> ...


eeehh.. but how would you feel if she had to picture another man, just to have an orgasm with you? 

sounds like something that i would at least try to work on - but thats just me personally - because i would feel guilty. i tell my partner -everything- related to anything like that because it has to do with what the relationship means, and i want him to have the freedom to decide if he wants to be with a person who [does whatever].


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> eeehh.. but how would you feel if she had to picture another man, just to have an orgasm with you?


There actually have been times where we've fantasized together about that sort of thing, believe it or not. No way I could have done that when younger. 

In general, if it wasn't part of a shared fantasy, then it would make me feel uncomfortable or insecure. 

Objectively, however, that's a separate issue relating to my subjective feelings. We were debating whether objectively that would make her more prone to cheating than she otherwise would be, and the answer would be no unless it was an incessant thing, which I'd either label an "addiction" which I referenced before, or else signs of deeper, already-existing problems in our relationship.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Slight tangent here (though not a useless one), but I think you're being falsely selective about what oxytocin does and does not reinforce. I don't buy the argument that oxytocin only reinforces attraction to a person and not to the activities you engage in with that person - let's call it the "smart oxytocin" argument.
> 
> My understanding of the way that psychological or chemical reward happens is that the animal or person associates their activities with the reward, that is everything they can associate with the reward.
> 
> ...


It's simple conditioning. You are focusing only on the oxytocin but there is a second element here, particularly, the subconscious association that takes place between physiological response and the object that produces that response.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> It's simple conditioning. You are focusing only on the oxytocin but there is a second element here, particularly, the subconscious association that takes place between physiological response and the object that produces that response.


That's what I'm saying. I don't think you can select what part of the association is occurring - I think all of it does. 

Another thought here too. 

If my conditioning arises from the association of:

1) oxytocin; 
2) imagined images of past girlfriends; and
3) *sex with my girlfriend*; 

Why then would the behavior being reinforced be:

1) oxytocin; 
2) imagined images of past girlfriends; and
3) *sex with other women*? 

It would seem that you're arguing that oxytocin not only fails to reinforce the activity-reward connection between the associated behavior and the mental image, you're actually arguing that it is using one behavior to reinforce an entirely different behavior. I don't buy that at all now that I think about it.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> That's what I'm saying. I don't think you can select what part of the association is occurring - I think all of it does.
> 
> Another thought here too.
> 
> ...


Apparently some sort of sexual gratification is being obtained by imagining past girlfriends. That's the association that's being created.


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

I would imagine that for many people, getting off to a fantasy about someone else is quite easy, and maybe even desirable... There are so many people in unhappy/unsatisfactory relationships these days. 

For me, I can't imagine doing that in my current relationship or ever wanting to. Even if I did, I would feel like shit & super duper guilty. That's almost as bad as cheating, in my eyes.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

People have different desires and different stimulations that arouse them. I think what redman is trying to point out that, when viewing an outside stimulant for arousal is simply an idea for which could be done together with his SO. Its not that his SO is any less attractive before or after, but a perspective they BOTH take for a successful experience.

I've also seen a lot of the possibility where jealousy could come into play in some of these posts, and "well I would never ever think of anyone, or anything other than MY SO. That's bad and its cheating to do so." I think some individuals who fear of being considered less attractive due to the stimulation of porn and fantasizing are trying to convince others of their viewpoints because of a possible insecurity.

Has anyone ever given the thought that, maybe, an individual like redman is confident enough to realize that his SO really is the foundation for his attraction, and occasionally "fantasizing" or looking at porn makes him realize how lucky he really is by having his SO? Just a thought.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

MXZCCT said:


> Has anyone ever given the thought that, maybe, an individual like redman is confident enough to realize that his SO really is the foundation for his attraction, and occasionally "fantasizing" or *looking at porn makes him realize how lucky he really is by having his SO? Just a thought.*


I am really trying to follow you here. I know what I think, but I am unsure if I am right or wrong yet. 

The bolded part doesn't make sense to me. If he is using porn/other people to "push him over the edge" sexually, so to speak, that seems to imply that they do more for him than his SO. So by extension if the porn is doing more for him, the ladies in them would be more appealing/attractive/stimulating thus getting a stronger reaction from him.

This would not make him feel lucky to have his current SO; it would lead him to feel like he has less when comparing it to stronger stimulus (exGFs/porn). So I don't understand how you could see it as he feels lucky to have the less stimulating option. It just doesn't seem logical to me.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

kristle said:


> I am really trying to follow you here. I know what I think, but I am unsure if I am right or wrong yet.
> 
> The bolded part doesn't make sense to me. If he is using porn/other people to "push him over the edge" sexually, so to speak, that seems to imply that they do more for him than his SO. So by extension if the porn is doing more for him, the ladies in them would be more appealing/attractive/stimulating thus getting a stronger reaction from him.
> 
> This would not make him feel lucky to have his current SO; it would lead him to feel like he has less when comparing it to stronger stimulus (exGFs/porn). So I don't understand how you could see it as he feels lucky to have the less stimulating option. It just doesn't seem logical to me.


Well if you got it out of your head that just because a guy looks at porn, it does not automatically suggest the porn is a higher stimulant that his SO, then you would understand.

People with self confidence understand that porn has it limits. Porn is simply a representation. Therefore, feeling the actual real deal (vagina) is much, much better than a palm, four fingers, and a fucking thumb. I can't imagine you would disagree with that statement.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

MXZCCT said:


> Well if you got it out of your head that just because a guy looks at porn,* it does not automatically suggest the porn is a higher stimulant *that his SO, then you would understand.
> 
> People with self confidence understand that porn has it limits. Porn is simply a representation. Therefore, feeling the actual real deal (vagina) is much, much better than a palm, four fingers, and a fucking thumb. I can't imagine you would disagree with that statement.


It automatically suggests it's a higher stimulant when just having sex with the SO isn't pushing to climax and porn/GF images does. That by default suggest the one that pushes you over the top is a stronger stimuli.

We are not talking about a situation where you can either jack off to porn OR have sex with a SO. I agree that that would make this situation totally different. We're considering the situation where one is already having sex with the SO and wants/needs/desires more than that in the likes of porn or images other than the SO.

I think it's a fair question to ask why the SO on their own is not sufficient enough if they are better than past memories or porn images.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I read somewhere that in general, emotional infidelity is seen as a worse breach of trust for females, while sexual infidelity tops for males.

So reason I see females making a bigger deal out of it than guys might have something to do with that. Guys think, "I'm not _doing_ anything wrong, what's the problem?" Remember guys are less relational than women in their sexuality, more physical/visual, so there's probably a higher chance of mind wandering. Not to mention the whole compartmentalization aspect. 

Still, for this to be a constant in any serious relationship, it definitely points toward underlying issues.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Remember guys are less relational than women in their sexuality, more physical/visual, so there's probably a higher chance of mind wandering.


LOL, is this a joke? Even if men are less rational than women when it comes to sex, that's no excuse. You can't go "oh men's mind's wander... cause their men!" I mean really, I can think of a few men who would be entirely offended at being lumped in with men like that.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Meh, not worth it.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Who are these men? Just about every guy will find some truth in above assessment.



nope

(10 characters)


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Your body is also your own, and you can do what you like with it - but most in a relationship -choose- not to have sex with anyone outside of the relationship. In my mind, I have no desire for men other than my significant other.
> 
> I also don't get how most people can agree emotional cheating exists, even if theres no physical manifestation of it - like shes spending her time cuddling up with the other guy.. yet, people will say that sexual fantasizing isn't cheating, though it exists in the same place as the emotional cheating, the physical manifestation, sex, not being played out any more than the cuddling with the person they are emotionally cheating with. Basically, if sexual fantasy and emotional cheating exists in the same place, and are only the thoughts and emotions without the physical manifestations; why is one cheating, and the other is not - when the physical manifestation of either is clearly cheating? A person who is emotionally cheating could just as easily have no true desire to leave their partner and marry the one they have these feelings for, just like those who claim they have no intentions of actually having sex with those in their fantasy.


The difference being that physical and emotional cheating happens with a real person. A fantasy is not real and does not harm your partner in any way. Do you think that if someone imagines hurting someone in their mind that they are guilty of any crime? How far are we going to take this? In the end, what happens in someone else's head is none of anyone else's business. No amount of "pure thoughts" are going to stop someone from cheating anyway.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

Luke said:


> The difference being that physical and emotional cheating happens with a real person. A fantasy is not real and does not harm your partner in any way. Do you think that if someone imagines hurting someone in their mind that they are guilty of any crime? How far are we going to take this? In the end, what happens in someone else's head is none of anyone else's business. No amount of "pure thoughts" are going to stop someone from cheating anyway.


If you're not thinking about cheating, why would you cheat? I mean really now, you cheat because you desired another person in some form, if that desire isn't there you're obviously not going to be sticking your dick anywhere else but your gf.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

Eerie said:


> If you're not thinking about cheating, why would you cheat? I mean really now, you cheat because you desired another person in some form, if that desire isn't there you're obviously not going to be sticking your dick anywhere else but your gf.


Cheating is acting on a desire in some way. If fantasy is equal to action, then people should be imprisoned every time they load up a game of grand theft auto :laughing:


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

Emotions are just in your head too. Everything is technically just in your head. You're just choosing to draw a line arbitrarily.

When one commits a criminal act, intent plays a part in the severity of that act. If you do something to cause someones death, but their death was not your intent, thats manslaughter. If their death was your intent, that was murder. Even the law acknowledges that you can be held accountable for what goes on in your mind, to an extent. What that extent is, and under what context, is the debatable part.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Luke said:


> Cheating is acting on a desire in some way. If fantasy is equal to action, then people should be imprisoned every time they load up a game of grand theft auto :laughing:


You don't understand the argument here. The argument is that mentally preparing for cheating makes you more apt to cheat. Can anyone really be surprised that cheating is so common when it's apparently considered normal to fantasize about cheating on a daily basis? Comparing this to imprisoning someone for playing grand theft auto is completely irrelevant; this is an issue between two people, not between a person and the larger community as it would be in criminal law. In fact, it's not at all like criminal law, but more like a contract. If someone wants to enter into a relationship with someone who fantasizes about cheating, then they should be prepared for what will likely happen. But, like Eerie said, if someone doesn't think about cheating then they're most likely not going to cheat. If a guy sits in his basement thinking about killing someone every day, you can't imprison him for thinking about it but you shouldn't be too surprised when he actually does it.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

timeless said:


> You don't understand the argument here. The argument is that mentally preparing for cheating makes you more apt to cheat. Can anyone really be surprised that cheating is so common when it's apparently considered normal to fantasize about cheating on a daily basis? Comparing this to imprisoning someone for playing grand theft auto is completely irrelevant; this is an issue between two people, not between a person and the larger community as it would be in criminal law. In fact, it's not at all like criminal law, but more like a contract. If someone wants to enter into a relationship with someone who fantasizes about cheating, then they should be prepared for what will likely happen. But, like Eerie said, if someone doesn't think about cheating then they're most likely not going to cheat. If a guy sits in his basement thinking about killing someone every day, you can't imprison him for thinking about it but you shouldn't be too surprised when he actually does it.


It is relevant because it demonstrates the difference between fantasy and reality. Sure someone could act out a fantasy in a game, some particularly unstable people may even be influenced to act on these fantasies, but a mature person will not. I personally respect my partner enough to believe that they are able to separate fantasy from reality and will not act on them.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Luke said:


> It is relevant because it demonstrates the difference between fantasy and reality. Sure someone could act out a fantasy in a game, some particularly unstable people may even be influenced to act on these fantasies, but a mature person will not. I personally respect my partner enough to believe that they are able to separate fantasy from reality and will not act on them.


What a person thinks about is often an indicator of their character. I respect myself enough to not associate intimately with such people.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

kristle said:


> It automatically suggests it's a higher stimulant when just having sex with the SO isn't pushing to climax and porn/GF images does. That by default suggest the one that pushes you over the top is a stronger stimuli.
> 
> We are not talking about a situation where you can either jack off to porn OR have sex with a SO. I agree that that would make this situation totally different. We're considering the situation where one is already having sex with the SO and wants/needs/desires more than that in the likes of porn or images other than the SO.
> 
> I think it's a fair question to ask why the SO on their own is not sufficient enough if they are better than past memories or porn images.


In my view, I think the individual is fantasizing what the porn "actors" and "actresses" are doing as an act rather than the porn actors and actresses themselves. Your taking the fantasizing, and equalizing it cheating. Its not cheating, nor will it ever be. Like I stated earlier, porn is a representation of what a male desires WITH his SO. How is that desire to do something creative with his SO, in your mind, putting his SO in a lesser degree of attractiveness?


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

MXZCCT said:


> In my view, I think the individual is fantasizing what the porn "actors" and "actresses" are doing as an act rather than the porn actors and actresses themselves. Your taking the fantasizing, and equalizing it cheating. Its not cheating, nor will it ever be. Like I stated earlier, porn is a representation of what a male desires WITH his SO. How is that desire to do something creative with his SO, in your mind, putting his SO in a lesser degree of attractiveness?


I like the explanation you give here. It definitely widens my scope of possibilities. If my SO said he fantasized only about the acts and how we could live them, I would be fine with that. But I don't think it's fair of you to assume that fantasizing in general is ONLY based on the physical act and not the physical appearance of another person or idea of being with that person.

The reason I point this out is because some of the examples used in this thread do not seem to be "idealizing acts" alone. They seem to be the replacing of the SO with something more stimulating. This, to me, would be a problem.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

timeless said:


> It's not about forcing anyone into anything. It's about choosing a person with a requisite level of honesty and integrity for your relationship.


Yep.

That's why I said:



> If you and your partner agree on it, then it's the right thing for that relationship.


But you shouldn't use it as a yard stick to judge anyone else's.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> But you shouldn't use it as a yard stick to judge anyone else's.


Why not?

(10 char)


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## Stephen (Jan 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> Why not?


Because their relationship, and what makes them happy, is not your business.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Stephen said:


> Because their relationship, and what makes them happy, is not your business.


I still don't see what the problem is.


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## PistolShrimp (Mar 19, 2011)

Getting off to fantasies isn't conditioning someone to get off to people other than their partner; it's conditioning them to get off to the fantasy of another person. That's why people who watch too much porn can actually find themselves unable to be aroused by _any _person when they actually have sex, no matter how attractive the person is and no matter if they perform the fantasized porno kinks or not. The person has associated orgasm with fantasy and their own hand, not other partners.

I can see why some people are uncomfortable with their partner's fantasizing or watching porn, and you're definitely entitled to feel that way and find someone who shares your views. However, humans are a non-monogamous species (see Sex at Dawn ) and I'm not sure that repressing fantasies of others is the healthiest option for many people in the long run, as too much repression tends to warp harmless natural urges into something ugly. If both partners genuinely have no urge to fantasize about others, then I don't see a problem there.

Pretty much anything done to excess is bad, but I think fantasizing and watching porn in moderation are relatively harmless in a stable and open committed relationship. I don't think fantasizing to get off cheapens the connection between two loving partners; it is just another facet of a person's sexuality.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

timeless said:


> Why not?
> 
> (10 char)


To judge is to be judged.

To each his own. I couldn't be concerned enough about what others do to judge them.
Surely you have better things to do with your relationship than worry about others'.

That's just as bad as fantasising about someone other than your partner.


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

Sigh.

I bet most people here would assume my boyfriend doesn't love me because we're in an open relationship.

They'd be horribly wrong.

Different people function different ways. I'd be perfectly fine if our relationship weren't open, but I know we match perfectly on an incalculably absurd number of levels, that my feelings are a top priority for him, and that he's loyal, dependable, and deeply cares. I'm not a very jealous person, I'm secure in our love, and I feel fine about things. In fact, better than fine. I can talk to my boyfriend about _everything._ I honestly don't think there's a single thought or experience I've had that he would judge me for. And from what I can tell, he feels the same way. No one's controlling or possessive. We never fight. We _adore_ each other.

Just because such a situation wouldn't work for you doesn't mean that such a situation cannot work for anyone. People are different.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> I still don't see what the problem is.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see what your problem is with the concept that feelings of security, intimacy, passion, romance, confidence, etc. are subjective, and neither you nor anyone else is capable of fully understanding the entire range and variety of possibilities in this regard. 

Is this a moral issue for you, or are you genuinely having trouble understanding the psychology here?


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't see what your problem is with the concept that feelings of security, intimacy, passion, romance, confidence, etc. are subjective, and neither you nor anyone else is capable of fully understanding the entire range and variety of possibilities in this regard.
> 
> Is this a moral issue for you, or are you genuinely having trouble understanding the psychology here?


I understand the psychology perfectly. The comment that you quoted ("I don't see what the problem is") is in relation to this particular discussion. I don't see what the problem is with me reacting negatively to private business that's put out in public. I'm not going up to people and putting a gun to their heads and demanding all the secrets of their relationships; so the "it's not your business" argument doesn't apply here.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

timeless said:


> I understand the psychology perfectly. The comment that you quoted ("I don't see what the problem is") is in relation to this particular discussion. I don't see what the problem is with me reacting negatively to private business that's put out in public. I'm not going up to people and putting a gun to their heads and demanding all the secrets of their relationships; so the "it's not your business" argument doesn't apply here.


This is a non-reply.

How absurd to note that "it's out in the open" and that it's no longer "private business" - of course it's not, we're on a message board! Welcome! 

Nobody's debating the right to comment upon the subject matter and upon what others (including me) have said about it. Comment away. In fact, I'm commenting about your input right now . . . which leads me back to what I asked before and what you failed to answer:

"I don't see what your problem is with the concept that feelings of security, intimacy, passion, romance, confidence, etc. are subjective, and neither you nor anyone else is capable of fully understanding the entire range and variety of possibilities in this regard. 

Is this a moral issue for you, or are you genuinely having trouble understanding the psychology here?"


You said you know the psychology - show me you do, don't just say you do and then fail to explain. What sort of contribution to the discussion is that?


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> This is a non-reply.
> 
> How absurd to note that "it's out in the open" and that it's no longer "private business" - of course it's not, we're on a message board! Welcome!
> 
> Nobody's debating the right to comment upon the subject matter and upon what others (including me) have said about it.


I'm guessing you didn't read Post #103. You might want to go back and read that.



> Comment away. In fact, I'm commenting about your input right now . . . which leads me back to what I asked before and what you failed to answer:
> 
> "I don't see what your problem is with the concept that feelings of security, intimacy, passion, romance, confidence, etc. are subjective, and neither you nor anyone else is capable of fully understanding the entire range and variety of possibilities in this regard.
> 
> ...


I already explained the psychology. It's a matter of conditioning and priming. Information on conditioning and the priming effect can be easily found through Google if you don't know what these are.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

timeless said:


> I understand the psychology perfectly. The comment that you quoted ("I don't see what the problem is") is in relation to this particular discussion. I don't see what the problem is with me reacting negatively to private business that's put out in public. I'm not going up to people and putting a gun to their heads and demanding all the secrets of their relationships; so the "it's not your business" argument doesn't apply here.


There's a difference between passing comment and passing judgement.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

twoofthree said:


> There's a difference between passing comment and passing judgement.


(1) Why does it matter?
(2) When have I passed judgment?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

PistolShrimp said:


> Getting off to fantasies isn't conditioning someone to get off to people other than their partner; it's conditioning them to get off to the fantasy of another person. That's why people who watch too much porn can actually find themselves unable to be aroused by _any _person when they actually have sex, no matter how attractive the person is and no matter if they perform the fantasized porno kinks or not. The person has associated orgasm with fantasy and their own hand, not other partners.
> 
> I can see why some people are uncomfortable with their partner's fantasizing or watching porn, and you're definitely entitled to feel that way and find someone who shares your views. However, humans are a non-monogamous species (see Sex at Dawn ) and I'm not sure that repressing fantasies of others is the healthiest option for many people in the long run, as too much repression tends to warp harmless natural urges into something ugly. If both partners genuinely have no urge to fantasize about others, then I don't see a problem there.
> 
> Pretty much anything done to excess is bad, but I think fantasizing and watching porn in moderation are relatively harmless in a stable and open committed relationship. I don't think fantasizing to get off cheapens the connection between two loving partners; it is just another facet of a person's sexuality.


I don't buy into the flat statement that humans are non-monogomous (a big potential tangent we'll avoid for now), however we can agree that it is not uncommon for people to be sexually stimulated by the thought of sex with partners other than their current SO. 

I otherwise agree with this. Well said.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Is engaging in a role-playing rape fantasy with your SO preparing you for rape?
> 
> Does a gay person engaging in straight sex prepare themselves for heterosexuality?





timeless said:


> These analogies are off the mark. The first one isn't relevant because the connection that I'm asserting happens between an individual and another individual, not an individual and an action. The theory here is that training the brain to see other people as an object of sexual desire (and rewarding the brain through oxytocin for thinking so) as well as the subconscious association weakens the bond between partners and opens the door for cheating. It's not that all people who do this will cheat, but rather, they are more susceptible to cheating because they have positively reinforced the idea of having sex with someone other than their SO.
> 
> The second one is not relevant because people other than heterosexuals can have straight sex, so it's not logical that straight sex would beget the exclusiveness required of the definition of "heterosexuality." You could more accurately (but still not quite right) say that it prepares them for bisexuality, if they're enjoying it. Of course, at that point, they'd probably be considered bisexual anyway.





redmanXNTP said:


> Slight tangent here (though not a useless one), but I think you're being falsely selective about what oxytocin does and does not reinforce. I don't buy the argument that oxytocin only reinforces attraction to a person and not to the activities you engage in with that person - let's call it the "smart oxytocin" argument.
> 
> My understanding of the way that psychological or chemical reward happens is that the animal or person associates their activities with the reward, that is everything they can associate with the reward.
> 
> ...





timeless said:


> It's simple conditioning. You are focusing only on the oxytocin but there is a second element here, particularly, the subconscious association that takes place between physiological response and the object that produces that response.





redmanXNTP said:


> That's what I'm saying. I don't think you can select what part of the association is occurring - I think all of it does.
> 
> Another thought here too.
> 
> ...





timeless said:


> Apparently some sort of sexual gratification is being obtained by imagining past girlfriends. That's the association that's being created.


 
Here's the consolidation of our chain of conversation. 

Your last question didn't really respond to what I was saying about your account being selective in what is being conditioned versus what is not. 

Let's ask it directly- why wouldn't the conditioning, if anything, be precisely what it already is behaviorally and psychologically, that is sex with my SO combined with fantasies of sex with others? Why would it instead be conditioning for something behavioral that was entirely different than what I was doing to release that oxytocin in order to condition myself? 

This is not a question you've addressed.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

I've explained this before, but I will again. It's a problem of exclusivity. The theory is that if you condition yourself to get sexual gratification from other women as opposed to sexual gratification from _only_ your girlfriend, you are more likely (through priming) to be open to cheating. I don't see what's so mysterious about it.


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## bibimbap (Jun 12, 2011)

Unfortunately, porn (or a good vibrator) were the only things that could make me climax. That does not mean my partner did not arouse me, or that our sex was unsatisfying, it's just an unfortunate side effect of my single days that I am working through. I usually am not even thinking of the actual people in the porn, rather, it helps build up excitement and gets the blood flowing down there and makes it 100 times easier to get off. I always think of my partner when I climax, though, no else. I am not physically or emotionally attracted to anyone but him in reality, but it takes time to ween oneself off of those easy and fast ways to get that ultimate feel good moment. I suppose I'm more visual than a lot women? I'm not sure, but porn can be just as effective for me as it is for men, and also as detrimental I think. I don't think it has any place in a relationship, and I don't watch it anymore, nor does my SO. We just have to work a little harder to please each other, but it's definitely worth it. I don't judge others though, just do whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Interesting posts, long thread!!! but nice.




Promethea said:


> I'm wondering how common, or uncommon it is, for people to be able to get off to the fantasy of someone other than the person they are with (romantic relationship)


I always felt like women keep a shadow copy inside their minds regarding previous relationships. We guys? for sure, but I wouldn't know the difference. I'm a guy and not like the rest of guys. Still, Laura Schlessinger (_Ten Stupid Things Couples Do to Mess Up Their Relationships_. Cliff Street Books. 2002. p. 288. ISBN 978-0060512606.) mentions in one of her books that women have a higher tendency of thinking about someone else while having sex.

In my case, when I'm on a love relationship, I can't think of anyone else in fact my sexual drive might increase but only towards her. So don't count me in. BUT, I had 3 FWB (sex buddies)... we were really good friends but I found myself thinking and having fantasies about other girls, mostly ex girlfriends. Yes, it doesn't fit your OP as those were not romantic relationships.




Promethea said:


> - Maybe the idea of anyone else simply doesn't do it for you in that way/no desire for others? Would it still take a while after breaking up to still be able to get off to anyone else? (Getting the thought of only your partner out of your system for a while?/Taking a while to even move on enough to think about anyone else in that way?)
> 
> - Or maybe getting off to someone else is as easy as it is with your partner? I'm curious if this is the case, isn't it easier to physically cheat on them as well? If not, whats to stop a person from physically cheating if they are aroused by other people? (Is it simply denying the desire to have sex with them? What mechanism actually stops it from happening?)


I have a great long memory, research a lot and many friends find in me someone to trust so *I've heard many confessions both from women and men*, yes including married people (even older people). I find shocking how many told me about the one who got away. I saw many of them happy before getting married and still seem happy but it's amazing to hear them say "_he's-she's not the one I wanted to marry, my heart still belongs to someone else_". I don't like the idea, but it explains a lot. And yes some get married due to their incoming baby.



Promethea said:


> - People are afraid of putting all their eggs into one basket. A guy I knew said that he wanted a sort of safety net in case his gf left him. He wanted at least the fantasy of another person to comfort him and make him feel like shes not the only one in the world who would want him.
> 
> - Too immature to understand what they have. A person can take another for granted, and think that they have that s/o on lockdown, but they want to have their cake and eat it too.. more. This is an unfortunate product of capitalism, I think, where the message is that nothing is ever good enough, theres always something better, and maybe not even better, but different.. or.. just.. -more- stuff. It doesn't respect the quality of the emotional connection at all. It degrades the value of it.


 That's true. A married friend of mine says love should be inside the house, but passion.... it's better to have it outside because is a fire that could burn the house down and ruin the love.

And that fits some of my readings: some people don't relate love with sex, I mean, some have certain sexual needs that they find incompatible with the mother of their own kids. Why? I don't know but that's what some have told me literally. Per example anal sex, a friend of mine got mad when I asked him why it doesn't happen with his wife, only with his lovers and he says he can't do that to the mother of his childre. Another married friend of mine loves oral sex but gets mad about talking of oral sex with the wife... he says he would totally lose respect for her if she ever tries to do it..... WTF! 

I don't get it.




MXZCCT said:


> Well to be honest. If the individual is replacing the SO with porn, then either the individual has an extremely high sex drive and desire, and/or the SO does not turn out to be satisfying, what does that tell you? It's not exactly a fairy tale happy ending, but when it is it ever?
> 
> Shit happens.


I've heard of that too actually happening. Some guys marry the "good mother", but focus only on having someone to take care of the kids (for real). And women do this too, wanting the bad guy but marrying the "good one".

I've had my share of relationships and each girl has totally (not replaced) but filled the space in my heart and in my head. Two of them were hard to deal with.... what I (we) experienced during sex was not common.... I still don't have a new SO after the last one... I read a not so serious article about losing the capacity to bond with others if you date just too much, just like loosing the glue... who knows, it doesn't sounds too out of this world.





chimeric said:


> Sigh.
> 
> I bet most people here would assume my boyfriend doesn't love me because we're in an open relationship.
> 
> ...


 True. I found that hard to believe at first but when I went on my first FWB relationship (not open relationship) I learned how great things can get when you let go the "mine" thing. It was funny because we were never exclusive but we never had anything with someone else. I guess you could say we were not faithful but we were loyal to each other (and despite not being exclusive, it was). But our mind flow away freely.


The thread began talking about "current" romantic relationship, but I'll just add that many get there with the 2nd on the list.... I mean, not really the one they want and that explains a lot about fantasies.


- - - - - - 

I have never cheated not sexually or inside my mind, yes never. BUT, I found that when the relationships were going down the drain I found myself not dreaming about someone else, no, but comparing, feeling hurt seeing how others were able to do what my GF wont (just because she's lazy or whatever, not talking about sex here). 

I only see it as ME losing the connection... and becoming open to other girls. Remember that some relationships END when things already have DAYS being dead, others END still alive..........


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## angularvelocity (Jun 15, 2009)

Promethea said:


> I'm wondering how common, or uncommon it is, for people to be able to get off to the fantasy of someone other than the person they are with (romantic relationship).
> 
> - Maybe the idea of anyone else simply doesn't do it for you in that way/no desire for others? Would it still take a while after breaking up to still be able to get off to anyone else? (Getting the thought of only your partner out of your system for a while?/Taking a while to even move on enough to think about anyone else in that way?)
> 
> ...


I've never done that. Something about fantasizing about someone else while having sex, receiving sexual acts, etc seems inherently wrong to me. 

For me, I'm having sex with someone because I only want to be with them and am turned on by them. I would consider myself cheating if I was imagining having sex with someone else because I'm not really receiving sexual satisfaction by my partner, but the person I'm imagining. That in itself is something I would consider immoral for myself to do!


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> ...we were watching a movie the other day and there were two late 30's heroines who were on screen, and she said, "Do I look like I'm their age?" By that she meant, "Do I look that old?"


...go up to her...smile deeply into her eyes...push her hair back over one ear...kiss her slowly and thoroughly...make sure to kiss her neck as well... (question totally forgotten)



Saranghaeyo said:


> I suppose I'm more visual than a lot women? I'm not sure, but porn can be just as effective for me as it is for men, and also as detrimental I think.


I remember reading somewhere that there was a study which showed that women were turned on physically by watching porn just as much as men, yet did not report being mentally stimulated.

Unfortunately I cannot find this reference now. :-(


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