# Do you believe in Patriotism?



## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

defectivebrain said:


> But if Spain were to secede from the EU on racial/genetic/cultural grounds, it would make total sense.


The EU isn't a country though. It's basically like a more close-knit United Nations. Spain removing itself from the the EU would be no different than say the US removing itself from the UN.


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## anon1234 (May 15, 2013)

No. Why should I have some special attachment and love for a population based on some make believe border that was really only put there to force unwarranted power and authority? 

I think for the most part patriotism is divisive and used to manipulate people. How many times have countries justified destructive things and convinced people by saying something along the lines of "It is in national interest"? Every time I hear that phrase used, a red flag goes off in my mind. I don't give a fuck about national interest if it goes against global interest and oftentimes long term interest. Our country is no more important than any other.


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## spookyfornever (Jun 5, 2013)

Can't believe in something that doesn't believe in me.


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## st0831 (Jul 13, 2010)

Patriotism...

What good has come forth from this? As a source of motivation, I can see the short-term gains such as individual empowerment but the long term costs are not worth it, wars.

But anyhow, this topics makes humans so primitive.


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## herkapernikis (Apr 27, 2014)

Patriotism is akin to people supporting a sports team from their region. The bond is only there because they were born there. It's all artificial.


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## TriggerHappy923 (Dec 8, 2012)

INTP

In the video, 16:04 / 19:02 sums it up how I see it.

"Patriotism, is form of collectivism. And by embracing the implied nationalism that comes with being a patriot, not only are you serving to dehumanize all those who don't happen to have the good fortune that you do to be born into a particular country, but you also dehumanize yourself. You are no longer and individual... no, you are just a member of the pack."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2r3-RNp9U&index=58&list=FLqJUgw45-ioyq2pGYpfmfvw


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Um yes & no.

I absolutely support an individual persons sacrifices in terms of risking life, paying tribute to those who are veterans, and still in service. Yes!

In terms of the big picture, not so much. Pride often blinds subjectivity. And people often that are hardcore patriots seem to get lost more in an idea and philosophy of it all, more so then evaluating an issue at hand. I have heard many staunch patriots preach patriotism when it supports tradition. They ironically seem to not stand on that sentiment when a table is turned and their tradition is threatened in terms of "the dream". And then they ironically feel compelled to stand on a patriotic front using their ideology on tradition arguing that any thing that contradicts their ideals is a threat to patriotism. And I just cannot support such a faulty frame of mind in terms the big picture. Or when people simply support a military operation with out questioning the reasons for it. 

But yes I support it in terms of paying tribute and appreciating the sacrifices some people make.


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## Johnston (Dec 16, 2012)

No, I've had enough of this herd mentality, thank you.


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## Brodir (Oct 31, 2013)

Generally yes, i consider myself a nationalist and feel it is a good idea for groups that have shared identity, viewpoints and history for example to generally form a unit. They do naturally of course, and it is not an unchanging thing, but it is good to have people that are similar to you that you can rely on, at least in a broad sense. This is generally something from the bottom up though, lots of personal and familial relationships and common ideas, practices and beliefs. I'm an introverted person and not exceptionally social, but i know that most people aren't. Humans are generally very social animals and form groups for mutual benefit, whether that is emotional benefit or social benefit or the benefit of security, etc.

As regards to individuality - What about group individuality? People generally want to define themselves in relative terms, by what they are and what they are not, and why. I find the various individual groups of humans and their interactions fascinating. I would not like to see them formed into a largely homogeneous mass, in the same way that the personal individualist would not like to see everybody around themselves turned into one homogeneous mass. I like having clearly definable groups of people.


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## Brodir (Oct 31, 2013)

herkapernikis said:


> Patriotism is akin to people supporting a sports team from their region. The bond is only there because they were born there. It's all artificial.


Not at all, you have a shared language, culture, ancestry, way of life. It is something that is built up, developed and changed over generations. The nation is the people, the country is the land on which they live. In some cases a nation can maintain itself across multiple countries if contact is kept up and the people are socially and culturally conservative.


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## Calvin (Jun 21, 2012)

Patriotism is just a way of hating foreigners and being justified for it.


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## malphigus (Jan 15, 2014)

Maybe? I don't think so. Current laws here are so very idiotic, the gov is (very, very) corrupt, and my country isn't a secular country.. yet!


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## SpectrumOfThought (Mar 29, 2013)

Not at all.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

Patriotism is pointless and potentially dangerous (although the average person's patriotism probably isn't particularly dangerous). If you want to be proud of something about yourself, be proud of your achievements, not where you were born, which is something you can't take any responsibility for. Why should anyone love their country more than any other?


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## VIIZZY (Mar 22, 2014)

Nationalism I find frightening while patriotism is just annoying; both to me involve some level of ignorance to maintain.


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## somnuvore (Sep 27, 2013)

Patriotism is too narrow of a definition; if we can define it as a powerful devotion to some cause, establishment (like a business), and so on, then I would be a powerful supporter of patriotism; you should wholeheartedly support the good in your world, and wholeheartedly reject the evil. But as the definition is now, as simply adherence to one's nation is though it were religion, I reject patriotism; even assuming one is removing their government from their definition of nation (not really possible to have a geographical monopoly without one but whatever), there is nothing so generally great about these people that I would take pride in them all. Many of them actively supported the crusade to take the oil from the east and kill the brown people, while the rest did nothing to stop it; who could take pride in this but a sociopath?


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

TGW said:


> I'm thinking if I get bored enough that I'll go and post this same question in all the other temperaments just to see if there is some kind of link or something. But for now, I just want to see: What do you all think about patriotism? Personally, I find it to be arrogant, illogical, and harmful to individuality, but what do ya'll think? Also, what is your type?


ENTP here.

I think patriotism is stupid. In fact, I don't think there is any such thing. Everything people call patriotism is just nationalism. 
It's usually illogical (refuses to accept facts), selfish, and ill-informed.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Nothing wrong with being proud of where you came from unless you act like an ass. I am very proud of my mixed heritage.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. - Mark Twain
Here is a true patriot:

* *





Socrates, the gadfly of the state:


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

I don't believe in blind Patriotism at all. That is stupid IMO, I am merely talking about being proud of where you came from or where your relatives came from. I would never wrap myself in an American flag and not question our government. Showing concern for your country is a form of patriotism. 

(And so is paying taxes)


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## TGW (May 4, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> Nothing wrong with being proud of where you came from unless you act like an ass. I am very proud of my mixed heritage.


I'm sorry, but there is a problem with that. The fact is that being proud of your heritage implies that the people who make up your heritage are superior than the people who didn't. I'm Egyptian-American, but I am not proud of either of these because I could have just as easily been Turkish-Italian. Does it matter? In fact, my mother told me a story about how she almost went to Australia instead of America and my father probably would've ended up being Australian instead of American. The point is, it's completely accidental and it makes no sense to be proud of the simple fact that my genetic lineage traces back to Egypt and America. In this line of thought, it becomes very easy to manipulate your emotions and make you believe that those who don't have the same genetic/cultural link to you are inferior beings. This is pretty much the basis of the most horrid shit in all of human history. From ethnic cleansing to simple wars with other nations or even terrorist attacks, it all stems from the simple thought process entailing a superiority over others via your culture and genetic heritage. And the worst part is that feeling proud of your heritage is completely illogical.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

TGW said:


> I'm sorry, but there is a problem with that. The fact is that being proud of your heritage implies that the people who make up your heritage are superior than the people who didn't. I'm Egyptian-American, but I am not proud of either of these because I could have just as easily been Turkish-Italian. Does it matter? In fact, my mother told me a story about how she almost went to Australia instead of America and my father probably would've ended up being Australian instead of American. The point is, it's completely accidental and it makes no sense to be proud of the simple fact that my genetic lineage traces back to Egypt and America. In this line of thought, it becomes very easy to manipulate your emotions and make you believe that those who don't have the same genetic/cultural link to you are inferior beings. This is pretty much the basis of the most horrid shit in all of human history. From ethnic cleansing to simple wars with other nations or even terrorist attacks, it all stems from the simple thought process entailing a superiority over others via your culture and genetic heritage. And the worst part is that feeling proud of your heritage is completely illogical.


My mother was born in England, father Greece and I was born in the U.S. I can be proud of my heritage without thinking I am superior than other people. That's quite a step you took. Lots of people from different countries are proud of their roots. As long as one doesn't take it to an obnoxious level. I see your point, but I don't think you see mine but that's okay. You must think I'm some nationalistic extremist...no.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

To emphasize what I think @MelanieM hinted at, it's quite consistent to be proud to be an equal. A little brother who one day is able to do the same things as his big brother could well feel very proud. In addition I think pride doesn't even have to be comparative but absolute, or only in comparison to an absolute standard. To understand this concept, imagine a group of mountain climbers, who all arrive at the top of a mountain at the same time. Even when they are all equals in this respect, there is a difference in if this was done with a tall and steep mountain than not, that is reflected by the care it takes to not make any missteps that one may fall. In the context of countries, that would mean to underestimate the instability of a country's existence is and the freedoms you enjoy thanks to it. It is to take for granted what those ancestors who have fought for your freedom have given you. A proper national pride should thus be centered around those figures, and also incorporates the absolute perspective which recognizes how easily freedom is lost, and so:
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty - Thomas Jefferson
A pride of such nature would serve as an incentive to preserve it.
Also the Romanian national anthem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deșteaptă-te,_române!
Wake up, Romanian, from the sleep of death into which you have been sunk by the barbaric tyrants
I think should be applied universally, because we have all fallen into a lethargic sleep of death and are in danger of losing our liberties to a tyrannical world government.

* *


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## TGW (May 4, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> My mother was born in England, father Greece and I was born in the U.S. I can be proud of my heritage without thinking I am superior than other people. That's quite a step you took. Lots of people from different countries are proud of their roots. As long as one doesn't take it to an obnoxious level. I see your point, but I don't think you see mine but that's okay. You must think I'm some nationalistic extremist...no.


Well, I never said I thought you are a nationalistic extremist. All I'm saying is that to be proud of your roots you have to believe that the peoples who make up your roots are superior than others. And then blablabla. However, it is possible that my logic was flawed in jumping from that premise to that conclusion. Maybe being proud does not mean that you believe your roots are superior to others' roots. If that's the case, though, I really don't understand how. If I'm proud of my ability to write, for example, it's because I think I'm better at writing than a lot of other people. If my ability to write were equal to that of a kindergartner I would not be proud because that would mean I'm a 16 year-old who writes like a fucking 4 year-old. I'd probably commit seppuku in shame. To be proud of being Egyptian, I would have to believe that Egyptians are better than others; let's say Greeks. I would be all like, "MelanieM, you're from Greece? pfft, I'm from Egypt. Way better-er." But, I don't think Egyptians are better than Greeks because everybody has taken a painful shit at one point in their life. Nearly everybody has had food-poisoning and then had to crouch over the toilet for hours to paint the toilet bowl brown. Why be proud that the ancestors I've had who've had explosive diarrhea following a sea-food all you can eat buffet (I've had a dark past, okay?) are from a country from Africa that's more culturally Arab and has a population that predominately practices Islam? I don't see why. If I don't think these people are superior, how can I be proud of the fact that people from that area fucked and produced offspring who fucked other people and then produced offspring who fucked some more and then finally moved to Boston and then fucked someone there and produced me? I'm just going to outright say it: I don't fucking get it. Would you please explain it to me? I'm genuinely curious.


//Edit: I mean, I can find things about Egypt that are pretty cool. Like, they built those pyramid things. But then, France had that Eiffel tower thing. In the end, it may make sense to be proud of climbing a mountain with your buddies if this mountain was super steep and stuff. But that's only because most people couldn't do that. If your equal to your genius brother in terms of intelligence, that is something to be proud of because most people suffer a shortage in the market of genius-level intelligence. You know what I mean? And I'm sorry about all this. I have a habit of using more words than necessary. It's just so much fun to see the pretty little symbols materialize from behind the blinking line in the textbox.


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## Nilo (Apr 25, 2014)

Patriotism is just a political tool. By quickly skimming through the post I've saw many interpretations of the concept, so I'll rely on wikipedia to establish a notion: "Patriotism is, generally speaking, cultural attachment to one's homeland or devotion to one's country, although interpretations of the term vary with context, geography and political ideology. It is a set of concepts closely related to those of nationalism."

My reasons of patriotism being BS are simple: if you're attached to something, sooner or later you'll lose it. A "country", a "culture" or any other flippin' concept to define a phenomenon is a fiction. What is a country anyway? Again, to establish a baseline I'll rely on wikipedia: "A country is a region identified as a distinct entity in political geography." Again, politics... Where am I in the whole political business? Where is a person? Let me tell you... A person doesn't exist in a country. There's only a statistical unit that needs to pay his loans and tallage. We'r people, not some sort of non existent concept.

In a nutshell, how can you be proud of something that doesn't exist?


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## Afterburner (Jan 8, 2013)

Patriotism seems ignorant and harmful to me. It's reliant upon some type of pride in a geographical territory and/or its political entity; it's being proud of a particular abstraction among others which you happened to not be in. Understandable when used for noble causes within the country, since it creates superordinate goals, but it's too often blurred with extremist views, and can drag people into blind support for leaders that may or may not be qualified for their level of power and have the public's best interest in mind, like in war. No matter how justified a war is for one side, both will justify killing the other sides men and women out of duty to the country. "_Can anything be more absurd that that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him." _-Blaise Pascal
​
This is closely related to the dehumanization of foreigners, which it also can cause, especially when labeled as enemies e.g. post 9/11 Americans equating Middle Easternern descent with Islamic extremism rather than humans simply having ME heritage. On top of that, the world is becoming too interconnected for geopolitical loyalties. Our problems are becoming more complex and global, and patriotism is little more than political tribalism, which can only slow down political solutions (not that they're particularly efficient in the first place) to large-scale issues. National unity inevitably carries some degree of separation from the rest of the world.

The country you're born in is not special simply because you happened to be born there. I can't find any reason to be proud of something that is simply what happens to be the case for reasons beyond my control, such as being proud of one's ancestry or claiming an individual's/ group's achievements as one for the nation. I don't think it implies a belief in superiority, but it is some form of self-validation by making your group distinct. Most of this stems from in-group bias and ancestral ties to tribal living.


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## Strelok (Aug 16, 2013)

MelanieM said:


> I am very proud of my mixed heritage.


But why?


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## Nilo (Apr 25, 2014)

@Afterburner your reasoning is EPIC!


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

@TGW



> However, it is possible that my logic was flawed in jumping from that premise to that conclusion. Maybe being proud does not mean that you believe your roots are superior to others' roots.


There you go...


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Strelok said:


> But why?


Why not? More importantly why care if someone is proud of their nationality, heritage or background? I'm more interested in why that would bother anyone as long as the person isn't obnoxious about it. Some people don't care about where they are from, I logically understand why and respect that. I don't turn my nose down on those who look at the world differently than myself, I find it fascinating. I most certainly would never claim them to be ignorant, for that would be elitist and rude.


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

Patriotism = xenophobia. Which makes me sad, as I'm xenophilic.


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## TGW (May 4, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> @_TGW_
> 
> 
> 
> There you go...


Well gee, thanks. I got that I got that part. What I don't get is the why and how of it. If you're proud of your roots, there must be a reason.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

TGW said:


> Well gee, thanks. I got that I got that part. What I don't get is the why and how of it. If you're proud of your roots, there must be a reason.


It's a common phenomenon for people to be proud of where they come from, heritage, etc. Everyone wants to feel they are part of something. It's a way to connect, I wouldn't analyze it too deeply. I would only be concerned if that was the only reason one would be proud of themselves.


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## cosmiccapricorn (Jun 2, 2014)

_"Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."_


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Afterburner said:


> Patriotism seems ignorant and harmful to me. It's reliant upon some type of pride in a geographical territory and/or its political entity; it's being proud of a particular abstraction among others which you happened to not be in. Understandable when used for noble causes within the country, since it creates superordinate goals, but it's too often blurred with extremist views, and can drag people into blind support for leaders that may or may not be qualified for their level of power and have the public's best interest in mind, like in war. No matter how justified a war is for one side, both will justify killing the other sides men and women out of duty to the country. "_Can anything be more absurd that that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him." _-Blaise Pascal
> ​
> This is closely related to the dehumanization of foreigners, which it also can cause, especially when labeled as enemies e.g. post 9/11 Americans equating Middle Easternern descent with Islamic extremism rather than humans simply having ME heritage. On top of that, the world is becoming too interconnected for geopolitical loyalties. Our problems are becoming more complex and global, and patriotism is little more than political tribalism, which can only slow down political solutions (not that they're particularly efficient in the first place) to large-scale issues. National unity inevitably carries some degree of separation from the rest of the world.
> 
> The country you're born in is not special simply because you happened to be born there. I can't find any reason to be proud of something that is simply what happens to be the case for reasons beyond my control, such as being proud of one's ancestry or claiming an individual's/ group's achievements as one for the nation. I don't think it implies a belief in superiority, but it is some form of self-validation by making your group distinct. Most of this stems from in-group bias and ancestral ties to tribal living.


It isn't just an abstraction. It is a concrete environment that lays the foundation of a person. It includes community, experiences, etc. 

You are really picking some low hanging fruit. 

It is special to me.

People saying it is hateful, and ignorant. Is loving your kids, and/or being proud of your kids, equal to hating other kids? Where does this "logic" even come from?

Let's apply this train of thought to everything. You didn't create yourself. In fact, you didn't even consent to exist. You exist, because the universe does, etc -- for reasons well beyond your control. So how can you take credit for anything at all? You are simply a product of the universe, just as I am a product of the US, or whatever else.


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## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm more of a globalist than a nationalist.

Culture is something I have pride and respect for, but "national interests" are often served at the sabotage of other nations' interests and in truth, they don't usually benefit the entire country as a whole. Most patriotism seems sheepish.


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## Magnus von Grapple (May 8, 2014)

It can be fun, like rooting for a sports team.


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## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

cosmiccapricorn said:


> _"Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."_


Nothing is achieved on your own but obtained at risk, and in complete reliance on a factor beyond your control that could be nil.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

We only don't care for patriotism because we've never had any true _need_ for it.

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It's the 70th anniversary of D-Day tomorrow. This morning there was a documentary on TV which followed the British input to Operation Overlord. It had interviews with the everyday guys who were soldiers on the landing craft. One of them was on the first craft to hit the beach on the morning of the attack. He jovially spoke of how he lost two of his friends as they charged together, and how he wasn't scared, because it was just what he had to do, there was no other way, he had to... (short silence)... ... (with much sadder voice) ... it was _to defend his country_.

That hit me pretty deep.


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I think there is some confusion between patriotism and xenophobia. Plenty of people claim they dislike immigration because they love their country. Those people are ignorant, racist fucks.

Similarly, plenty of people claim that they're a member of global society and don't see the point in valuing their homeland. But I bet my bottom dollar there would be a change of heart if there was a sudden, real need to protect their homeland from forceful invasion.

I believe most of us are actually very patriotic indeed. There just isn't any particular call for it at the moment. Hopefully there will never be a need again.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

hammersklavier said:


> Patriotism = xenophobia.


No it really doesn't..!


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