# Kill the nice guy!



## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Cheveyo said:


> How many times must it be repeated?
> They're not lamenting not being able to fuck you. You are NOT that amazing. The stairway to heaven isn't in your vagina. They're upset because they were IN LOVE WITH YOU and you rejected them. Worst of all, you've asked them to watch you be happy without them.
> 
> 
> If all a guy wanted was sex, he would move on and find a more willing candidate. He would NOT invest so much time trying to get you to like them.


Listen, is not that simple. Is not like I didn't asked the guys I rejected to stop being my friends. I always apologize and explain my position and that I like them as friends and in most cases its them who don't accept the fact that I like someone else that's not them. I can understand that pain, but I am not asking them to watching them to watch me be happy, I have no right to do that. I can be your friend, but if you don't want that and still want to bitch about it, its your choice but I offered you a chance to stay near me.
I don't enjoy doing it. I feel very guilty to make someone suffer like this.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

marked174 said:


> There's a huge difference between rejecting someone and friendzoning them. As I've said, I've rejected people, but I didn't give them the false hope that they could change their mind. Sometimes the friendliest thing you can do is keep people at a distance.


I can only agree with this


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Aya Nikopol said:


> Listen, is not that simple. Is not like I didn't asked the guys I rejected to stop being my friends. I always apologize and explain my position and that I like them as friends and in most cases its them who don't accept the fact that I like someone else that's not them. I can understand that pain, but I am not asking them to watching them to watch me be happy, I have no right to do that. I can be your friend, but if you don't want that and still want to bitch about it, its your choice but I offered you a chance to stay near me.
> I don't enjoy doing it. I feel very guilty to make someone suffer like this.




I wasn't responding to what you said, and wasn't trying to insult you or anything.
If a person likes you and you don't like them back, I think it's best to keep your distance.

I know that guilt. I know how hard it is to let a friend go, but it's far crueler to keep them close, even if they say they'd prefer it.


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## virtual (Feb 20, 2014)

Welcome to reality. The friendzone is a list where a woman will put a guy she does not find sexually attractive but she will get some benefit to have him around. Such benefits may range all the way from creating jealousy feeling for the guy she really likes, to boosting her ego, to monetary and materialistic gains.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

virtual said:


> Welcome to reality. The friendzone is a list where a woman will put a guy she does not find sexually attractive but she will get some benefit to have him around. Such benefits may range all the way from creating jealousy feeling for the guy she really likes, to boosting her ego, to monetary and materialistic gains.


So what she is doing is obviously premeditated? How easy is it to tell apart guys who want to be your friend and guys that have ulterior motives for being nice?


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## virtual (Feb 20, 2014)

monemi said:


> So what she is doing is obviously premeditated? How easy is it to tell apart guys who want to be your friend and guys that have ulterior motives for being nice?


You can tell apart by how much you are attracted to to them. All guys have the "ulterior motive" as you call it. The reason they are "nice" is because they have been told they are supposed to be nice. No guy wants to hang out with simply because you are so cool, that's what their other guy friends are for. They hang out with you because they find you sexually attractive. In some cases he may hangout with you because you are the one after him and he is just being "nice" to you and he might be interested in someone else, you know, those guys you like and you think the mislead you and then you are heart broken about it.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

virtual said:


> You can tell apart by how much you are attracted to to them. All guys have the "ulterior motive" as you call it. The reason they are "nice" is because they have been told they are supposed to be nice. No guy wants to hang out with simply because you are so cool, that's what their other guy friends are for. They hang out with you because they find you sexually attractive. In some cases he may hangout with you because you are the one after him and he is just being "nice" to you and he might be interested in someone else, you know, those guys you like and you think the mislead you and then you are heart broken about it.


I haven't had a guy mislead me and break my heart. I've always been upfront with guys I was interested in. When guys have expressed romantic/sexual interest in me and wasn't interested, I didn't beat around the bush, I was straight with them. If you try to slip into a romantic relationship via friendship, don't be surprised when she thinks you actually want to be her friend. She hasn't lied to you.


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## virtual (Feb 20, 2014)

monemi said:


> I haven't had a guy mislead me and break my heart. I've always been upfront with guys I was interested in. When guys have expressed romantic/sexual interest in me and wasn't interested, I didn't beat around the bush, I was straight with them. If you try to slip into a romantic relationship via friendship, don't be surprised when she thinks you actually want to be her friend. She hasn't lied to you.


I did not mean the guy purposely misleads you. I meant the case when girl A likes a guy, and she is always looking for him to hangout with. He will be nice to her, but he might not be interested on her. Sometimes he happens to like girls B, when girl A knows this she is broken hearten. Maybe this has not happened to you, but you know it happens. In the other hand, guys who are always looking for you to hangout. Just because they have not expressed feeling for you it does not mean they don't. Especially since you are so blunt with guys who do express and you don't reciprocate, then your guys friend will be less likely to openly express their feelings and linger and wait for you to give a signal, because they are afraid to be rejected by you.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

virtual said:


> I did not mean the guy purposely misleads you. I meant the case when girl A likes a guy, and she is always looking for him to hangout with. He will be nice to her, but he might not be interested on her. Sometimes he happens to like girls B, when girl A knows this she is broken hearten. Maybe this has not happened to you, but you know it happens. In the other hand, guys who are always looking for you to hangout. Just because they have not expressed feeling for you it does not mean they don't. Especially since you are so blunt with guys who do express and you don't reciprocate, then your guys friend will be less likely to openly express their feelings and linger and wait for you to give a signal, because they are afraid to be rejected by you.


Then these guys are making a mistake. It's an individuals responsibility to make themselves clear. If you (plural) haven't been forthcoming with people, it isn't their responsibility to read your mind.


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## virtual (Feb 20, 2014)

monemi said:


> Then these guys are making a mistake. It's an individuals responsibility to make themselves clear. If you (plural) haven't been forthcoming with people, it isn't their responsibility to read your mind.


Totally agree. They are fools. But I also think women should be aware that these guys are not there for friendship alone. I am not saying they just want sex, many of them actually want a relationship.


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## WindScale (Jun 16, 2013)

Always had a slight concern about this issue and this thread has proven to be rather insightful. Opened my mind a bit which is rather stellar and for that I thank you all. 
Carry on please. :wink:


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Forgive me for my poor scope of knowledge regarding this topic. But looking at boyfriends and girlfriends at my school (the few that there are) besides the the touching and the kissing there doesn't seem to be "a whole new level". They seem to make each other happy the way any other friend would. I only say that from my very limited point of view, but my from my very limited point of view I don't think it's that much better than being a good friend with a girl. Good friends talk to each other about emotional issues and express their admiration for each other just the same. I realize that my viewpoint is limited to public interactions between boyfriends and girlfriends however. I am also young. My friend told me she doesn't think people at our age know how to have a real romance. So feel free to enlighten me as to why being in a relationship like that is 1,000,000x better and more important than having a best friend who does similar things.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

The Economics of Sex - The Good Men Project


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## CaptainWildChild (Dec 26, 2012)




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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> 'Pain' lol
> 
> I don't mock anyone in pain. Guys complaining about not getting a fuck aren't in pain, they're in entitlement mode.


Again, people actually believe that this is what happens. It's a lie people tell themselves so they don't feel bad when they bully those guys (and make no doubt, it's flat out bullying).



isingthebodyelectric said:


> '
> So, I have no decency according to you, that's a bit harsh really but who curr.


Bullying people is indecent, especially if they are in pain (refusing to acknowledge this does not absolve you from it).


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Aya Nikopol said:


> Sometimes you don't realize that. I'm very oblivious to that. I act nicely to the guys I know and some take me not wanting anything with them is taken as friendzoning them.
> It depends on what the person defines as interested or not.


I agree, which is why I think the origin for these problems often stem from poor communication. If those guys were more clear, then you wouldn't be oblivious.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

I also think it's important to understand that all resentments in friendzoning are not created equal.

For example, one form of resentment may stem from pure entitlement (which the bullies claim happens 100 thousand percent of the time). In these cases, the victim of friendzoning becomes resentful simply because he didn't get his way; he's behaving like a spoiled brat.

Another example of resentment can be quite different. A guy can be told one afternoon by a girl that she only sees him as a friend. He's hurt, but understands that these things happen. That night, he finds his "friend" on facebook. She posts "There are no decent men out there, all the good ones are taken." In this case, he is most definitely resentful because his "friend" just implied that he's not a decent man, and he's worthless because he's not taken.

In these examples we see two very different forms of resentment for very different reasons. The bullies will try to say it's all about sex, but I think it's important to see that there is a lot going on in these situations.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

marked174 said:


> I agree, which is why I think the origin for these problems often stem from poor communication. If those guys were more clear, then you wouldn't be oblivious.


Sometimes people are like 'that guy really wants you' and I don't really understand why. I'm pretty much blind to that.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> So what she is doing is obviously premeditated? How easy is it to tell apart guys who want to be your friend and guys that have ulterior motives for being nice?




You make courting a woman sound like rape. "Ulterior motive".
Honestly, as far as I can tell, the only real difference between "unwanted attention" and "acceptable flirting" is basically how attractive the guy is to the woman.



If you want to know whether a guy wants to be your friend or is interested in more, you need to see how he treats other people. If he treats you EXACTLY like his other friends, then he's most likely not interested in anything more. And I *mean* "exactly". View it from an objective stand point, don't add your own opinions and feelings to it.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I agree, which is why I think the origin for these problems often stem from poor communication. If those guys were more clear, then you wouldn't be oblivious.




The thing is, you can't really be clear. Now-a-days, there's a fine line between sexual harassment and flirting. And it changes drastically depending on the person.

Any man accused of sexual harassment is essentially socially destroyed. If not worse.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> You make courting a woman sound like rape. "Ulterior motive".
> Honestly, as far as I can tell, the only real difference between "unwanted attention" and "acceptable flirting" is basically how attractive the guy is to the woman.
> 
> 
> ...


It's an ulterior motive because he is being dishonest about his intentions. And it isn't dishonesty to spare someone else's feelings. It is dishonesty to spare their own feelings. And likely hurting her feelings (albeit unintentionally) when she realizes what is going on. 


If the guy is the one that is getting the short end of the stick, shouldn't they be the ones avoiding this situation? They're causing their own hardship.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> The thing is, you can't really be clear. Now-a-days, there's a fine line between sexual harassment and flirting. And it changes drastically depending on the person.
> 
> Any man accused of sexual harassment is essentially socially destroyed. If not worse.


Oh dear Lord, what could you possibly be saying to these women that would result in sexual harassment charges?


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> The thing is, you can't really be clear. Now-a-days, there's a fine line between sexual harassment and flirting. And it changes drastically depending on the person.
> 
> Any man accused of sexual harassment is essentially socially destroyed. If not worse.


To me, these are separate issues. You can make your intentions clear in a non-threatening way.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> It's an ulterior motive because he is being dishonest about his intentions. And it isn't dishonesty to spare someone else's feelings. It is dishonesty to spare their own feelings. And likely hurting her feelings (albeit unintentionally) when she realizes what is going on.
> 
> 
> If the guy is the one that is getting the short end of the stick, shouldn't they be the ones avoiding this situation? They're causing their own hardship.



It's not like they put themselves through it over and over. Some guys may require several instances of it before the lesson sinks in, but they'll eventually learn. There is a reason we keep hearing about the "Friendzone". 
That's because we are not the last generation of men and women. There will always be a new group of people experiencing the same old trials and tribulations that the ones before them experienced. So a new group of people experience it and reach out to others. So you'll have one guy complain about it, then others will join in and bitch as well. It's a way of saying "you're not alone, dude, we know those feels".

The problem I've been seeing more often recently, is that these emotional vent-a-thons are being attacked by feminists. They'll come in with insults and demeaning everyone there. Disregarding everything these people have experienced and laughing at them. They're bullying these guys who've opened themselves up in a way that was comfortable for them. And it's ALWAYS feminists.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Oh dear Lord, what could you possibly be saying to these women that would result in sexual harassment charges?


"I was wondering if you'd like to go to dinner some time?"


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## sinshred (Dec 1, 2013)

Human nature is full of ego. It makes being nice guy looks like an attempt for your hidden agendas. It's better to be yourself, and if you wanna help people, do it with sincerity.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> "I was wondering if you'd like to go to dinner some time?"


The only scenario where I could see that being a problem is if you're in a position of authority/power over that person. If my boss asked me that, I'd been wondering how much longer I'm going to have a job for if I say no. 



Cheveyo said:


> It's not like they put themselves through it over and over. Some guys may require several instances of it before the lesson sinks in, but they'll eventually learn. There is a reason we keep hearing about the "Friendzone".
> That's because we are not the last generation of men and women. There will always be a new group of people experiencing the same old trials and tribulations that the ones before them experienced. So a new group of people experience it and reach out to others. So you'll have one guy complain about it, then others will join in and bitch as well. It's a way of saying "you're not alone, dude, we know those feels".
> 
> The problem I've been seeing more often recently, is that these emotional vent-a-thons are being attacked by feminists. They'll come in with insults and demeaning everyone there. Disregarding everything these people have experienced and laughing at them. They're bullying these guys who've opened themselves up in a way that was comfortable for them. And it's ALWAYS feminists.


When you hear guys describing friendzone, their choice of words strongly suggest that she failed to fulfill her end of a bargain that she most likely was unaware she had agreed to at any point. When women react, they could be nicer, but maybe men could in this position could look critically at their choices that contributed to the situation. Two way street.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> The only scenario where I could see that being a problem is if you're in a position of authority/power over that person. If my boss asked me that, I'd been wondering how much longer I'm going to have a job for if I say no.


My point wasn't the exact scenario, but what it's like to be required to walk on eggshells around women. You don't know what will set a person off. Opening the door for some women is enough to get them to insult you. Then there's the danger of regret. You meet or hear of guys who sleep with a girl, who then regrets doing it and claims it was rape.

There's so much power in the hands of women when it comes to the dating/sexual sphere, and some abuse that power. Not all by any stretch, but not everyone is a daredevil. Not everyone is open to jumping out of an airplane. It's far less stressful to tip toe around than to jump.





> When you hear guys describing friendzone, their choice of words strongly suggest that she failed to fulfill her end of a bargain that she most likely was unaware she had agreed to at any point. When women react, they could be nicer, but maybe men could in this position could look critically at their choices that contributed to the situation. Two way street.



They're emotionally compromised. They're not speaking from a logical stand point.
They're not seeing the experience from a neutral stand point. They're lashing out.


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## Rohlo (Jan 20, 2013)

Cheveyo has hit the nail on the head every time. Men that are trying to do the right thing with women are poked fun at and are easily manipulated by the object of their affection. To the idea that 'it's a two way street,' how is the man supposed to know what is in the woman's head, unless she has been abundantly clear that she isn't interested? It could be the same situation if the woman was being put in the 'friendzone.'


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> My point wasn't the exact scenario, but what it's like to be required to walk on eggshells around women. You don't know what will set a person off. Opening the door for some women is enough to get them to insult you. Then there's the danger of regret. You meet or hear of guys who sleep with a girl, who then regrets doing it and claims it was rape.
> 
> There's so much power in the hands of women when it comes to the dating/sexual sphere, and some abuse that power. Not all by any stretch, but not everyone is a daredevil. Not everyone is open to jumping out of an airplane. It's far less stressful to tip toe around than to jump.
> 
> ...


You make it sound a lot more complicated than it is. Don't be a douchebag and you're safe of harassment claims. 

If you're set on sky diving, you're gonna have to jump clear of the plane. Tip toe around jumping and you're going to hit the tail of the plane and get knocked out. Rejection isn't a terrifying prospect. 

I see some men greatly exaggerating what 'powers' women have. I can't take it seriously. If you've ever seen a woman legitimately press charges it's not easy. It's traumatic. 

The way you lay responsibility at the woman's feet for his feelings is just too bizarre for words. If he tells her he wants to be more and she intentionally gives the impression that there is a possibility of something happening, she's responsible for his hurt feelings. But if he never told or he told her and they agreed to just friends, he's responsible for himself. Same rules apply for women when it comes to sex vice versa. You're grown up enough for dating, then be a grown up. 




Rohlo said:


> Cheveyo has hit the nail on the head every time. Men that are trying to do the right thing with women are poked fun at and are easily manipulated by the object of their affection. To the idea that 'it's a two way street,' how is the man supposed to know what is in the woman's head, unless she has been abundantly clear that she isn't interested? It could be the same situation if the woman was being put in the 'friendzone.'


Why are these men easily manipulated? How are they any more manipulated than women are manipulated by pick up artists? Those women are made fun of too. That's life.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Everybody seems to be implying that there is malice and "hidden agendas". Does anyone honestly believe that woman purposely manipulate guys who they consider their friends and does anyone honestly believe that guys are just in it for the sex? Perhaps neither group is aware of the other's view and that's the problem. I rejected a girl does that mean I'm a mass manipulator for being friends with her before? And do you think a guy would be crying "friendzone! Ahh I'm depressed now!" over a cold scandal to get sex? People are just making negative assumptions about each other to me. Really there should be some honest direct communication and if that can't be achieved then there are no real good friends to speak of.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Rohlo said:


> Cheveyo has hit the nail on the head every time. Men that are trying to do the right thing with women are poked fun at and are easily manipulated by the object of their affection. To the idea that 'it's a two way street,' how is the man supposed to know what is in the woman's head, unless she has been abundantly clear that she isn't interested? It could be the same situation if the woman was being put in the 'friendzone.'


Men trying to do the right thing would be to accept rejection, respect the wishes of the woman and move on. If you're attracted to a girl and shes not attracted to you then move on. Do not become friends with a girl you are attracted to as more than friends, its a recipe for disaster. You dont need to be able to read a womans mind but instead its the responsibility of the man to take responsibility of his own feelings. 

I dont know how this is even a topic of discussion. You are a man with feelings, understand the difference between your feelings and reality. You cant have everything you want and if you keep trying to obtain what you cant have all youre doing is hurting yourself. Nobody else is hurting you but yourself if you continue to be friends with a girl after she has rejected you, then youre naive because your feelings will stay and she will never share those feelings with you, nor is it her responsibility to share feelings with you just because you share some with her. If you wanted a clear answer then after the first few times of hanging out ask her how she feels towards you. If she says she just wants fo be friends now, then dont bother. I dont care how attracted you are to anyone, they do not have to be attracted to you.


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

I always thought the 'nice guy' scenario was this:

Nice guy falls 'in love' with girl. He then begins to treat the girl nicely, even sacrificing his own time and energy for her. Girl does not sacrifice her own time and energy for him. Nice guy begins to sulk and grow increasingly depressed due to the perceived inequality in their relationship. Eventually, relationship breaks down when nice guy communicates his wish for the girl to reciprocate. Girl sometimes wishes to remain friends, either due to a genuine interest in the guy as someone to 'do things with' (occasionally spend time with) or due to a desire to continue sapping away the nice guy's time and energy for herself without having to give in equal shares.

The problem is that what one person considers valuable may not be as valuable to the other person. Therefore, even when something is reciprocated by one individual, it may not be as important to the other. Hence the differing value systems causes an inequality in reciprocation. It seems more effective to simply give exactly what was given: if you receive a dollar, you give a dollar - nothing more, nothing less. But this is a difficult concept in many relationships because of the personal value attributed to the target of a person's 'romantic interest'.

The other issue is that the nice guy is giving, but the girl isn't asking. If the girl didn't ask, then she shouldn't be required to give in return. It may sound selfish, but communication does a lot better than the lack thereof. When I receive a cash prize in the mail, it should be because I signed up for a contest of some sort; in that case, I would be able to read the rules and policies beforehand, thereby knowing if I'm expected to give up the money afterward (and whether or not it would be worth entering at all). If one communicated their expectations beforehand, however, they may run the risk of sounding 'pushy' - however, there would be an objective scale one could then use to measure the success of the relationship.

And yes, I'm sure some of these nice guys are simply after sex. But I doubt the problem is always as black-and-white as it seems to be.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> You make it sound a lot more complicated than it is. Don't be a douchebag and you're safe of harassment claims.
> 
> If you're set on sky diving, you're gonna have to jump clear of the plane. Tip toe around jumping and you're going to hit the tail of the plane and get knocked out. Rejection isn't a terrifying prospect.
> 
> I see some men greatly exaggerating what 'powers' women have. I can't take it seriously. If you've ever seen a woman legitimately press charges it's not easy. It's traumatic.


Sure, it's traumatic, when they're reporting something that actually happened. Not when they're lying through their teeth for personal gain.




> The way you lay responsibility at the woman's feet for his feelings is just too bizarre for words. If he tells her he wants to be more and she intentionally gives the impression that there is a possibility of something happening, she's responsible for his hurt feelings. But if he never told or he told her and they agreed to just friends, he's responsible for himself. Same rules apply for women when it comes to sex vice versa. You're grown up enough for dating, then be a grown up.



This is exactly what the friendzone is. You do things that show obvious intent and the woman uses your feelings for selfish reasons.





> Why are these men easily manipulated?


Have you ever been in love?


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> I've been seeing a lot of insults and negativity being thrown around at people who even mention "the friendzone" in the sites I frequent. So why not bring that negativity here?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do. Not. Date. Your. Friends.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> Sure, it's traumatic, when they're reporting something that actually happened. Not when they're lying through their teeth for personal gain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're gonna need a rape kit or some kind of evidence to prove sexual assault. His word vs her word isn't going to get a guy done in. And what woman wants to deal with the questions cops ask? It's just wow. You'd have to be a seriously rare pathological liar to get through all of that fraudulently. Even a sexual harassment claim needs documentation. A pattern of behaviour needs to be proven. Sure you can claim sexual harassment on the one event, but without witnesses to back you up, his word against her word isn't going to go anywhere. 




'You do things that show obvious intention?' What things exactly? Because if it's dinner, girlfriends have bought me dinner. I've had an ex (hadn't seen in a couple of years and was passing through and he wanted to hang out) pay for dinner while I was in the washroom and I felt really stupid when I tried to pay him back and then offended him by pointing out that there wasn't any chance of us getting back together and he made the point that he didn't think there were was and then I looked completely arrogant for getting the wrong message. It's really not clear what a persons intentions are if you don't flat out tell them. 



I am in love with my husband. He can't manipulate me. He could try, but love doesn't equal doormat.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> This is exactly what the friendzone is. You do things that show obvious intent and the woman uses your feelings for selfish reasons.


Do not "do", you have to "speak" your feelings to be clear. Doing things can imply many things such as youre just really friendly, or very compassionate towards friends. You know what words do though, it gets the point across. You can save a lot of your feelings from getting hurt if you would just speak up.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

shadow logic said:


> men trying to do the right thing would be to accept rejection, respect the wishes of the woman and move on. If you're attracted to a girl and shes not attracted to you then move on. *do not become friends with a girl you are attracted to as more than friends, its a recipe for disaster.* you dont need to be able to read a womans mind but instead its the responsibility of the man to take responsibility of his own feelings.
> 
> I dont know how this is even a topic of discussion. You ate a man with feelings, understand thd difference between your feelings and reality. You cant have everything you want and if you keep trying to obtain what you cant have all youre doing is hurting yourself. Nobody else is hurting you but yourself if you continue to be friends with a girl after she has rejected you, then youre naive because your feelings will stay and she will never share those feelings with you, nor is it her responsibility to share feelings with you just because you share some with her. If you wanted a clear answer then after the first few times of hanging out ask her how she feels towards you. If she says she just wants fo be friends now, then dont bother. I dont care how attracted you are to anyone, they do not have to be attracted to you.


fucking this.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> Do. Not. Date. Your. Friends.



This response completely ignores everything, even the sentence in bold.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Sure you can claim sexual harassment on the one event, but without witnesses to back you up, his word against her word isn't going to go anywhere.


Generally, it does got somewhere.
The guy gets reprimanded/fired/arrested and that's the end of that.





> 'You do things that show obvious intention?' What things exactly? Because if it's dinner, girlfriends have bought me dinner. I've had an ex (hadn't seen in a couple of years and was passing through and he wanted to hang out) pay for dinner while I was in the washroom and I felt really stupid when I tried to pay him back and then offended him by pointing out that there wasn't any chance of us getting back together and he made the point that he didn't think there were was and then I looked completely arrogant for getting the wrong message. It's really not clear what a persons intentions are if you don't flat out tell them.



And this is something everyone knows from the get go without prior experience, right?





> I am in love with my husband. He can't manipulate me. He could try, but love doesn't equal doormat.


You're going to keep ignoring my point because it doesn't help your argument, aren't you?


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> This response completely ignores everything, even the sentence in bold.


You don't understand how dating works, apparently.

No woman (well, at least not the ones I've dated) is interested in a man that is, for all intents and purposes, one of her girlfriends.

You have to be a fucking man and put yourself on the line. _That_ shows that you're serious and honest about your intent to pursue a relationship.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> You don't understand how dating works, apparently.
> 
> No woman (well, at least not the ones I've dated) is interested in a man that is, for all intents and purposes, one of her girlfriends.
> 
> You have to be a fucking man and put yourself on the line. _That_ shows that you're serious and honest about your intent to pursue a relationship.





This is not something everyone knows from the moment they're born. I didn't know it 15 years ago when it would have mattered. I learned that with age. If you knew this from the start, then I'm happy for you. You skipped some of the lessons along the way.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> Generally, it does got somewhere.
> The guy gets reprimanded/fired/arrested and that's the end of that.



Not what I've seen. Biased views? There are three versions to every conflict. Your version, their version and somewhere in the middle is the truth. 





> And this is something everyone knows from the get go without prior experience, right?



There aren't special lessons warning women about dating dicks and yet it happens all the time. Life is the cruelest teacher, giving the test before the lesson. 




> You're going to keep ignoring my point because it doesn't help your argument, aren't you?



I'm not ignoring your point. Responsibility rests on the individual.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Not what I've seen. Biased views? There are three versions to every conflict. Your version, their version and somewhere in the middle is the truth.
> 
> There aren't special lessons warning women about dating dicks and yet it happens all the time. Life is the cruelest teacher, giving the test before the lesson.
> 
> ...



Why is it seen as acceptable to demean the guys going through this, but considered unacceptable to do it to women?
There is so much hate thrown at those guys and there's no reason for it.

Wouldn't the best course of action be to either ignore it or give advice? "lol neckbeard" isn't advice, but it's what gets thrown around.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> Why is it seen as acceptable to demean the guys going through this, but considered unacceptable to do it to women?
> There is so much hate thrown at those guys and there's no reason for it.
> 
> Wouldn't the best course of action be to either ignore it or give advice? "lol neckbeard" isn't advice, but it's what gets thrown around.


Did I miss a post where someone said that?

I agree that people bully "nice guys" and misconstrue their intentions in order to justify said bullying. I think that topic in itself is worth studying. I think we might have gotten a little off that topic, though. Sexual harassment might be related, but it seems like a distraction at this point.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> Why is it seen as acceptable to demean the guys going through this, but considered unacceptable to do it to women?
> There is so much hate thrown at those guys and there's no reason for it.
> 
> Wouldn't the best course of action be to either ignore it or give advice? "lol neckbeard" isn't advice, but it's what gets thrown around.


Women take the piss out of women that lack the sense to avoid the equivalent situations. Do you have any idea how nasty women can be to women they deem to be sluts or stupid?


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> *Why is it seen as acceptable to demean the guys going through this, but considered unacceptable to do it to women?*
> There is so much hate thrown at those guys and there's no reason for it.
> 
> Wouldn't the best course of action be to either ignore it or give advice? "lol neckbeard" isn't advice, but it's what gets thrown around.


I can't honestly say that I've seen many women complain endlessly about getting friendzoned by guys all over the internet.

People put them down because they are seen as children throwing tantrums over not getting the toy they wanted even though they were on their bestest behavior and asked really nicely and even said "please".


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Psychosmurf said:


> I can't honestly say that I've seen many women complain endlessly about getting friendzoned by guys all over the internet.


Women have support structures in place for them to vent. It is acceptable for them to cry with their friends and complain about how horrible all men are because their last boyfriend cheated on them.





> People put them down because they are seen as children throwing tantrums over not getting the toy they wanted even though they were on their bestest behavior and asked really nicely and even said "please".



This is what society has taught them is expected. They're not supposed to outright hit on women. They're not supposed to come out and explain their attraction. They're supposed to "woo her". They have to court her.

Not all men are born with natural charisma or the knowledge of what women would prefer. I know it's hard for you to understand this, because obviously you've never had any kind of trouble in that regard.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Women take the piss out of women that lack the sense to avoid the equivalent situations. Do you have any idea how nasty women can be to women they deem to be sluts or stupid?



That makes it okay?

"Women are horrible to each other, so everyone should experience that monstrosity"?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> That makes it okay?
> 
> "Women are horrible to each other, so everyone should experience that monstrosity"?


Men aren't being singled out here.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Men aren't being singled out here.


Why is it acceptable at all?
"Girls will be girls"

Fuck that, teach them not to he monstrous little cunts to each other.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> Why is it acceptable at all?
> "Girls will be girls"
> 
> Fuck that, teach them not to he monstrous little cunts to each other.


Great! I've been dealing with this side of women since I was a little girl. Lead the charge and I'm right behind you, just tell me the plan.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Great! I've been dealing with this side of women since I was a little girl. Lead the charge and I'm right behind you, just tell me the plan.



Here's the plan: Teach your own children not to be that way. Encourage their friends not to be that way when they're hanging out at your house and you hear them talking crap about people behind their backs.

I don't have kids, but I've got nieces I can teach.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Cheveyo said:


> Here's the plan: Teach your own children not to be that way. Encourage their friends not to be that way when they're hanging out at your house and you hear them talking crap about people behind their backs.
> 
> I don't have kids, but I've got nieces I can teach.


Well shit, I'm already doing that. And yeah, I've caught my daughter doing this. My jaw dropped. Is it the estrogen? My husband reassured me that I didn't teach her that.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

monemi said:


> Well shit, I'm already doing that. And yeah, I've caught my daughter doing this. My jaw dropped. Is it the estrogen? My husband reassured me that I didn't teach her that.



Estrogen is supposed to work as an aggression suppressant, or so I heard before.

Aggression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could be stress caused by social expectations, both personal and societal.



There was a study and a documentary showing the differences in aggression. Basically, people in positions of power always had less stress. Those in the lower levels of the hierarchy were always the most stressed. So they're prone to more aggression and health problems.

I think it was this documentary: 





So the aggression could be women vying for dominance in a group.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> Women have support structures in place for them to vent. It is acceptable for them to cry with their friends and complain about how horrible all men are because their last boyfriend cheated on them.
> 
> 
> This is what society has taught them is expected. They're not supposed to outright hit on women. They're not supposed to come out and explain their attraction. They're supposed to "woo her". They have to court her.


If they're too gullible to realize that "society" lied to them about a great many things by the time they reach adulthood, then they're still just children, in my opinion. 



> Not all men are born with natural charisma or the knowledge of what women would prefer. I know it's hard for you to understand this, *because obviously you've never had any kind of trouble in that regard.*


Ha! No one is born with "natural charisma". Social grace is a learned skill that I had to practice, growing up.


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

The friend zone is a complicated matter, and as someone who has experienced unrequited love from both sides, I know what it is like to search for any little sign that maybe the other person may secretly reciprocate if I only behave in just the right way. I have found false "evidence" of possible reciprocation in the most mundane things, seeking vigilantly and seeing what I wanted to see, but ultimately, each time when I found out I wasn't wanted, I didn't hate the other person for "leading me on" or "manipulating me" or "toying with my feelings." I may have unwisely continued pursuing guys who didn't want me, not out of disrespect, but because a limerent desire is overpowering and painful, to the point where giving up would be nearly impossible to bear. 

I think most shy people have experienced this kind of situation at some point. It makes sense to ease your way in if being direct is too powerful or terrifying, and if an equally direct rejection could completely emotionally destroy you. I don't fault anyone for keeping it a secret at first. It also makes sense to be friends with the person you love, because most love starts with the same kind of feelings as friendship, and just gets more intense and intimate as the friendship grows and changes. It isn't about being dishonest. It is about waiting until one feels safe being that vulnerable. 

The main issue I have is that when women are romantically rejected by a friend who still wants to maintain the friendship, most of us are inclined to think "It's because I'm not good enough." When it happens to men, I get the impression that they are more likely to think "She's being cruel and heartless. What a horrible bitch to hurt me so badly!" They tend to turn it outward, often in a misogynistic manner, and assume all women are awful creatures who incite desire and hurt men's feelings on purpose just to gain whatever social advantages they can. 

The archetype of the evil temptress makes for an interesting story, but in reality, most women who find themselves in awkward situations with heterosexual male friends pursuing them are not intentionally cruel. As I said, I've been on both sides of the so-called "friend zone," and when I was wanted by friends who weren't compatible as potential romantic partners, I tried to treat them the way I would have wanted to be treated in the same situation. I was nice to them, and if they chose to interpret that as me giving them false hope, so be it. I remembered how it felt to be rejected bluntly and coldly before I was ready, and I wasn't going to do that to someone else. 

In that situation, I always coped best with rejection when the other person was indirect about it and just let me continue my fantasy for as long as I needed it. After realizing gradually on my own that the other person wasn't interested, I was usually still more than okay with giving the other person special favors, or sacrificing more of my time for him than I gave others, not because I felt like it would make him feel indebted to me or would change his mind (maybe I did hope that on some level), but because it felt like what I wanted to do. It felt good to do things for someone I cared about, and since he was always on my mind anyhow, it was better to be inspired than bitter. I never once blamed the other person for taking advantage. Everything was freely given by choice, and he owed me nothing. 

The idea of a "friend zone" as a purgatory where evil, manipulative women put decent, lonely men seems ridiculous to me, mostly because I have felt rejection enough to understand why it is a selfish and dangerous way of framing the situation.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Cheveyo said:


> Why is it seen as acceptable to demean the guys going through this, but considered unacceptable to do it to women?
> There is so much hate thrown at those guys and there's no reason for it.
> 
> Wouldn't the best course of action be to either ignore it or give advice? "lol neckbeard" isn't advice, but it's what gets thrown around.


One of those things you pretend to understand lest you be associated with a ''loser''. 

On the one hand, learning some social graces won't hurt anyone but l could only pretend to care about all of this for so long.

l had someone approach me pretty much the way you described. There is a certain kind of guy who goes a step beyond that and doesn't seem to understand boundaries...l think that's where ''neckbeard'' can become associated with creepiness and l can understand that.

However, he wasn't that way. 

Still had some tact but didn't play social games, l already know his utter disregard for norms would have been a red flag for some people but l'm not going to pretend that l _truly_ understand why l'm supposed to be bothered by it and l didn't care how it would reflect on me.

After me, he even managed to date a girl who was extremely popular and normal *gasp*.

And so did my other 'nerdy' ENFP boyfriend, BTW.

l do want to underline that the perceived boundary issue is real,and it can sometimes be more of a concern with introvert men (unfortunate but true).


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

snail said:


> The friend zone is a complicated matter, and as someone who has experienced unrequited love from both sides, I know what it is like to search for any little sign that maybe the other person may secretly reciprocate if I only behave in just the right way. I have found false "evidence" of possible reciprocation in the most mundane things, seeking vigilantly and seeing what I wanted to see, but ultimately, each time when I found out I wasn't wanted, I didn't hate the other person for "leading me on" or "manipulating me" or "toying with my feelings." I may have unwisely continued pursuing guys who didn't want me, not out of disrespect, but because a limerent desire is overpowering and painful, to the point where giving up would be nearly impossible to bear.
> 
> I think most shy people have experienced this kind of situation at some point. It makes sense to ease your way in if being direct is too powerful or terrifying, and if an equally direct rejection could completely emotionally destroy you. I don't fault anyone for keeping it a secret at first. It also makes sense to be friends with the person you love, because most love starts with the same kind of feelings as friendship, and just gets more intense and intimate as the friendship grows and changes. It isn't about being dishonest. It is about waiting until one feels safe being that vulnerable.
> 
> ...


Yeah, no. Friends leading into dating... not for me. Overly complicated and unnecessary. I'm not saying I need to hop into bed and test drive from day one. But I knew pretty quickly whether I was interested in a man or not. The friendship into dating thing just seems subversive to me and I don't like it. 

It goes back to different people having different preferences. You want to play the: "He likes me, he doesn't like me" me game. That sounds about as much fun as slamming my hand in a drawer repeatedly. In fact, that is definitely more painful to me than flat out rejection. I wouldn't want to second guess this stuff. I'm direct with people, I only ask that they be direct with me.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

@Cheveyo, you can't force people to change for you. People are going to be people, the world isnt going to conform to your views. Even if you spread the word about what women "should" do and even if you changed people there will always be people who are different and repulsive to you. I really think youre scared of voicing your thoughts/feelings to women because you fear rejection. You project this by being angry at them, when they weren't for you anyway. You need to take responsibility for your actions and understand that you must change yourself to adapt to the world, the world isnt going to adapt to you. There are many girls in the world who have a very diverse range of attractions, you will be welcomed warm heartily by many of them but right now you are focused on all the wrong women for you. You need to take sometime and introspect. Realize women are human and you just dont "woo" her, you treat her with respect as a fellow human and voice your true intentions in a friendly way. If she rejects move on, do not stay as friends but as acquaintances. Once you find the girl who loves you, all you have to do is try to get to know her, and adapt with her. *Right now though you are too focused on controlling women instead of understanding them.*


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> @Cheveyo, you can't force people to change for you. People are going to be people, the world isnt going to conform to your views. Even if you spread the word about what women "should" do and even if you changed people there will always be people who are different and repulsive to you. I really think youre scared of voicing your thoughts/feelings to women because you fear rejection. You project this by being angry at them, when they weren't for you anyway. You need to take responsibility for your actions and understand that you must change yourself to adapt to the world, the world isnt going to adapt to you. There are many girls in the world who have a very diverse range of attractions, you will be welcomed warm heartily by many of them but right now you are focused on all the wrong women for you. You need to take sometime and introspect. Realize women are human and you just dont "woo" her, you treat her with respect as a fellow human and voice your true intentions in a friendly way. If she rejects move on, do not stay as friends but as acquaintances. Once you find the girl who loves you, all you have to do is try to get to know her, and adapt with her. *Right now though you are too focused on controlling women instead of understanding them.*




Why do you people keep assuming I just got put into the friendzone or something?

I've probably got several years of age on you and you're trying to talk to me like a teacher talks to their student.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> Why do you people keep assuming I just got put into the friendzone or something?
> 
> I've probably got several years of age on you and you're trying to talk to me like a teacher talks to their student.


With all the years you have on me, you still havent realized that anyone is a teacher in some form of another to everyone. I am your teacher as I am also your student and vice versa. If your going to use your age use it wisely because age isnt equivalent to wisdom, nor knowledge nor experience, its only a function of time.

If youre willing to listen then understand that every thing you have said in this thread is a projection of your inner reality. I'm not saying you just got friendzoned, but I am saying you relate to those who do get "friendzoned" probably due to your bias of having been friendzone before. Youre constantly putting the blame on women which shows that you think it's their fault for your hurt feelings, when its you who hasn't taken the responsibility of your own feelings. You can't control or change people but only accept them while choosing to adapt with them. 

You may not want to listen to me because of how much older you may possibly be than me, but that would be rejecting valuable information which may help your cause. If you want to help people who get friendzoned, well help them by teaching them how to deal with their feelings and rejection instead of blaming women for not meeting your sense of reality.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> With all the years you have on me, you still havent realized that anyone is a teacher in some form of another to everyone. I am your teacher as I am also your student and vice versa. If your going to use your age use it wisely because age isnt equivalent to wisdom, nor knowledge nor experience, its only a function of time.
> 
> If youre willing to listen then understand that every thing you have said in this thread is a projection of your inner reality. I'm not saying you just got friendzoned, but I am saying you relate to those who do get "friendzoned" probably due to your bias of having been friendzone before. Youre constantly putting the blame on women which shows that you think it's their fault for your hurt feelings, when its you who hasn't taken the responsibility of your own feelings. You can't control or change people but only accept them while choosing to adapt with them.
> 
> You may not want to listen to me because of how much older you may possibly be than me, but that would be rejecting valuable information which may help your cause. If you want to help people who get friendzoned, well help them by teaching them how to deal with their feelings and rejection instead of blaming women for not meeting your sense of reality.




You're making assumptions about me from an inability to see why anyone would care about those people. I don't have to have experienced cancer to feel for those that have. I don't need to have experienced physical abuse to feel for people who have. Would you assume I had been beaten as a child if I made a thread about protecting children from abusive parents?

Would you assume I had been in war and suffered PTSD if I made a thread lamenting the fact that we don't care enough for those who've gone out and fought for our ability to argue on the internet?


Why is it that one can only feel pity for people in the friendzone if they've experienced it?


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> You're making assumptions about me from an inability to see why anyone would care about those people. I don't have to have experienced cancer to feel for those that have. I don't need to have experienced physical abuse to feel for people who have. Would you assume I had been beaten as a child if I made a thread about protecting children from abusive parents?
> 
> Would you assume I had been in war and suffered PTSD if I made a thread lamenting the fact that we don't care enough for those who've gone out and fought for our ability to argue on the internet?
> 
> ...


Its one thing to care and sympathize with a group of people, its another to completely blame who they're blaming for their problems. Youre not saying that you feel bad for friendzoned people and we should help them by teaching them how to deal with rejection and understand how to have social curtosy. Instead your blaming women for their problems, saying women should change because its hurts nice guys feelings when they are rejected. Youre not looking at root causes but instead outward blame, that implies a lack of objectivity replaced with a greater value on subjective defensive emotions. If I am wrong and you havent been friendzoned ever in your life then I am sorry for assuming. It just seemed probable through your speach patterns and direction of judgement that you have some type of history with being friendzoned.

If I may ask, have you ever been friendzoned? Be honest please.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

@Cheveyo, one more thing that caught my attention to you projecting your inner reality is your preconceived thought of what women "should" do. You may be an advocate for those who get friendzoned but you obviously have some subjective impression of what you think women should be and you want them to mold themselves to fit that reality of yours. That undeniable projection right there is another reason I thought you have had personal experience with being friendzoned.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> @Cheveyo, one more thing that caught my attention to you projecting your inner reality is your preconceived thought of what women "should" do. You may be an advocate for those who get friendzoned but you obviously have some subjective impression of what you think women should be and you want them to mold themselves to fit that reality of yours. That undeniable projection right there is another reason I thought you have had personal experience with being friendzoned.




Could you please quote where I said what women should be doing?


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> Here's the plan: *Teach your own children not to be that way. Encourage their friends not to be that way when they're hanging out at your house and you hear them talking crap about people behind their backs.*
> 
> I don't have kids, but I've got nieces I can teach.





Cheveyo said:


> Why is it acceptable at all?
> "Girls will be girls"
> 
> Fuck that, *teach them not to he monstrous little cunts to each other.*


The first quote is a response to the response of the second quote implying that it is also directed towards "monstrous little cunts". That along with you putting the blame on women and in both quotes you wanting them change shows that you have a subjective impression of how they should act so guys aren't as offended. Which still leads me back to saying that guys need to stop blaming women but instead need to take responsibility for their own feelings.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> The first quote is a response to the response of the second quote implying that it is also directed towards "monstrous little cunts". That along with you putting the blame on women and in both quotes you wanting them change shows that you have a subjective impression of how they should act so guys aren't as offended. Which still leads me back to saying that guys need to stop blaming women but instead need to take responsibility for their own feelings.



I had a feeling those two would be the only instances that you could find.
Did you bother trying to understand the context? Did you bother reading what I was responding to?

I assume you didn't. Because people like you are so common in topics like this. You come in assuming that I'm some kid who just got dumped and am looking for a way to vent, without even reading anything that's written.

You didn't bother reading the first post in this thread, you didn't bother watching the video I linked. You didn't bother reading the conversations that led up to this point. You had your own agenda that you needed to put forth and didn't care what was going on.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> I had a feeling those two would be the only instances that you could find.
> Did you bother trying to understand the context? Did you bother reading what I was responding to?
> 
> I assume you didn't. Because people like you are so common in topics like this. You come in assuming that I'm some kid who just got dumped and am looking for a way to vent, without even reading anything that's written.
> ...


I never said you just got friendzoned, I said you probably have a history of having been friendzoned before. I actually specifically said that right here:



Shadow Logic said:


> *It just seemed probable through your speech patterns and direction of judgement that you have some type of history with being friendzoned.*


It seems like I'm not the one doing the assuming, especially with you thinking I have an agenda. I guess my agenda would be to make sure that both women and men take responsibility for their own feelings, behaviors, and actions. Another part of my agenda is to make sure people respect each other as fellow human beings instead of animals that you can "woo". I'm sorry I wanted you to see that not voicing your feelings towards a woman may cause problems in communicating those same feelings, you know with people misreading or not reading into things that you think should be noticeable. Ive also read every post, I admit I didnt see the video though, and been commenting in this thread since the first page. Another assumption you have gotten wrong.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> I never said you just got friendzoned, I said you probably have a history of having been friendzoned before. I actually specifically said that right here:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like I'm not the one doing the assuming, especially with you thinking I have an agenda. I guess my agenda would be to make sure that both women and men take responsibility for their own feelings, behaviors, and actions. Another part of my agenda is to make sure people respect each other as fellow human beings instead of animals that you can "woo". I'm sorry I wanted you to see that not voicing your feelings towards a woman may cause problems in communicating those families, you know with people misreading or not reading into things that you think should be noticeable. Ive also read every post, I admit I didnt see the video though, and been commenting in this thread since the first page. Another assumption you have gotten wrong.




As I said, you're ignoring the purpose of this thread.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> As I said, you're ignoring the purpose of this thread.


And youre neglecting responsibility for your feelings, actions, and behaviors while advocating those who get friendzoned shouldnt also take responsible for theirs and instead should take their frustrations out on women by grouping up and blaming them. Youre trying to show the point of view of the one who gets friendzoned but youre rejecting the point of view that its not the women's fault but the nice guys fault because it was his actions and feelings that got him into the situation. I actually think I have a pretty good grasp of what the purpose of this thread is.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

It's funny how this thread went down the 'women are always to blame rote'. Really, they're not. Everyone has the right reject each other. Sometimes it has to be 'violent' or the person I'm rejecting will not understand.
Some years ago, I had to reject a close friend because I had no feelings for him. I was confused at start thinking that this might be my chance to have a happy relationship, then I realized that we were too friendly for that, I would end up using him or hurting him once I was sick of hearing talk about how I was not his ideal type of woman. You know, it hurts hearing these things, it's like people expect you to change to their wishes, but that just isn't me. So I rejected him in the most violent way I could. I ran away.
He didn't understand at the time, but a few days ago he talked to me after breaking up with his girlfriend and told me he understood what I did and that I had done good. If I had dated him, the end would be much worse than just talking. We were have destroyed each other and I couldn't have lived with the fact that I had destroyed a friend.

It's quick to understand that rejection and the 'friendzone' aren't always bad things, they're part of growing up and becoming a better person because you learn how to deal with it. It's important that you learn to cope with pain of loss because you're going to lose a lot in life and you gotta deal with it.

I talked with a friend about this tonight, a guy I had friendzoned in favor of my fiancée. He said he was okay with that and added that he doesn't like or believes in the concept of friendzone. For him that limbo doesn't exists, and thus he rather watch me be happy than fight or try to find signs of something that doesn't exists. It isn't a torture for him to do that, in fact he's the first to ask how are things with my fiancée. Isn't that amazing?
I call that maturity to understand that you can't take everyone you know as lovers, you can't not reject someone and just because they don't love you or he doesn't love you is the end of the world as we know it. I consider this guy my best friend.

All my friends (or almost all) are men and they do complain about their relationships and whine about it, but you know why guys usually don't cry over rot milk? Because the first answer I hear and see is 'move on, there is a better girl for you're and girls (or at least a part of them) keeps fighting for something that isn't there because he's perfect and he'll understand that I'm the right girl and come back crawling back to me.
The opposite also happens but I don't see it happening as much, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Women aren't evil creatures who put you in the limbo of relationships because they want or because they can, it's because they value you as a friend and would like to keep you as the good friend you're, because they like you.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

*

Disclaimer; Everything below is a generalization.*

Maybe this is a cultural difference but I'm baffled by some responses in this thread. Here in the UK at least many relationships begin as friendships and quasi-friendships, without explicit indications of romantic interest - nobody here seems to automatically perceive that as being deceitful. 

I think friendships to relationships tend to develop like this; 

Initial attraction > friendship and flirting > verbalized romantic interest > relationship

Or 

Friendship > attraction > flirting > verbalized romantic interest > relationship

And IMO normally the friendzone refers to 2 circumstances:

1)The guy having a sense of entitlement to a relationship for being nice to the lady.

2)Reciprocated flirting and/or the guy making overt romantic gestures, that the lady accepts and uses for validation despite having no reciprocal romantic interest.

This is the epitome of #2.






Also IMO and IME many women often appreciate the non-verbalized escalation of romantic interest. Verbalizing interest, rather than displaying it through non-verbal communication or behavior is often treated as less valuable or attractive IMO and IME.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> There was a nice quote I saw on Tumblr that said, 'Instead of putting guys in the "friendzone", put them in the "funzone" so they can cry and whine about not getting what they want like a four year old.' Lol.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk













:tongue:


----------



## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> *
> 
> Disclaimer; Everything below is a generalization.*
> 
> ...


I'm a Brit, this is one of the reasons I didn't fit in and left the country in my late teens. It annoyed the living crap out of me. I'm good at non-verbal to get attention, but moving onto the next stage, that slow confusing 'friend' dance is bullshit. Most of the men I dated weren't British. I think the requirement for dating in the UK is the patience of a saint. In my head I was thinking: Whatever it is you want just spit it out already. 

I was born in London but never fit in with the culture.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I think this is perhaps a good reason why the friendzone occurs.






Men tend to take flirting seriously, whereas women tend to see it as fun. 

Men eventually learn though. For example a friend and I are no longer impressed by women in nightclubs who make eyes at us and dance provocatively near us. It's generally just attention whoring, aka (to put it more nicely) seeking validation that they are desirable.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Why is everyone automatically assuming that it is necessarily the woman who is the one doing the "friendzoning" and the man, being the one who is "friendzoned"?

Some men can do this as well. Another expression for it is "narcissistic supply".



strangestdude said:


> Men tend to take flirting serious, whereas women tend to see it as fun.


Again, not necessarily true - another stereotype. I rarely if ever flirt with anyone I don't like. I may not be goal oriented towards getting into a relationship with them but they are generally someone I could actually see myself getting into one with - given the right circumstances. I have also encountered many men who flirt just for fun. The gender stereotypes in this thread make me dizzy.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Myoho Traveller said:


> Why is everyone automatically assuming that it is necessarily the woman who is the one doing the "friendzoning" and the man, being the one who is "friendzoned"?


I think generally men get friendzoned more than women.

Men generally talk about being 'used' for their validation and resources.

Women generally talk about about being 'used' for their bodies.

IMO often dudes are trying to court women by giving them their an abundance of validiation, and sharing their resources - and women are trying to secure commitment and love from men by giving them sex.

Then they complain about being 'used' rather than 'rewarded', which is what they expected IMO.



> Again, not necessarily true - another stereotype. I rarely if ever flirt with anyone I don't like. I may not be goal oriented towards getting into a relationship with them but they are generally someone I could actually see myself getting into one with - given the right circumstances. I have also encountered many men who flirt just for fun. The gender stereotypes in this thread make me dizzy.


I'd advise you to assume that everything written in this thread by anyone regarding the behavior of men and women are generalizations.

Whether they are true generalization or not is up for debate ofc.

IMO women do flirt or take 'selfies' to get validation in general, far more than men do. I'm not saying it means women are bad people, it just is what it is.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I think generally men get friendzoned more than women.
> 
> Men generally talk about being 'used' for their validation and resources.
> 
> ...


I agree that that is the common PERCEPTION, that society has but just like other stereotypical beliefs: ie. woman are more emotional, women gossip more etc. it is usually on the surface but I supposed from a purely "general" perspective, it has some validity; as many stereotypes - *not the two examples, I listed* - have a small kernel of truth in them. My point is that it is far less the case; than is being assumed in this thread.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Myoho Traveller said:


> I agree that that is the common PERCEPTION, that society has but just like other stereotypical beliefs: ie. woman are more emotional, women gossip more etc. it is usually on the surface but I supposed from a purely "general" perspective, it has some validity; as many stereotypes - *not the two examples, I listed* - have a small kernel of truth in them. My point is that it is far less the case; than is being assumed in this thread.


This whole thread is about discussing the surface level, hence the generalizations and stereotypes. No one is saying all women do this or all men do that. What we're saying is that people who get friendzoned have common charateristics to eachother and the women they go for also have a common set of charateristics. If the stereotypes dont apply to you, and if you have never friendzoned anyone or been friendzoned then this thread isnt directed towards you. I would understand what youre saying if we were trying to get to the underlying meanings behind the depths of the soul of each individual but this whole thread has been nothing but a surface level discussion. Since its been nothing since a a surface level discussion that means all surface level characteristics gey applied such as generalizations and stereotypes.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> This whole thread is about discussing the surface level, hence the generalizations and stereotypes. No one is saying all women do this or all men do that. What we're saying is that people who get friendzoned have common charateristics to eachother and the women they go for also have a common set of charateristics. *If the stereotypes dont apply to you, and if you have never friendzoned anyone or been friendzoned then this thread isnt directed towards you*. I would understand what youre saying if we were trying to get to the underlying meanings behind the depths of the soul of each individual but this whole thread has been nothing but a surface level discussion. Since its been nothing since a a surface level discussion that means all surface level characteristics gey applied such as generalizations and stereotypes.


So, I am perplexed as to what your point is. Is it that since this thread has been more or less a superficial study in stereotypes, that it _ipso facto_, does not warrant deeper discussion? If this is what you are arguing then, I strongly disagree with that. The majority of problems in society are caused by the persistence of the majority to never try to penetrate the surface of things.
@strangestdude has done a really good job in various threads of going beneath the surface of things and ferreting out the truth: His vulnerability of men (sorry, I don't know the link), is a case in point. It made me re-examine and change my previously unquestioned assumptions about that and sorry but I am not now nor will be ever content with just skimming the surface of any issues as important as this one. 

This thread IS directed to me, to any man, woman, anyone who is no longer a child and who has even an iota of understanding of relationships and I'd like to think I have a little more than that. Yes, I have been romantically interested in someone and "friendzoned" and I have probably been guilty (when I was younger and less self-aware of "friendzoning"; so - not that I need yours or anyone else's approval LOL; to offer my opinion but I believer I am well "qualified" (rolf), none-the-less.

:laughing:


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I think this is perhaps a good reason why the friendzone occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Friends have said that I always flirt and so does my Dad and then made fun of me for my version of intentionally flirting being too blunt. I've argued that isn't flirting, I'm just friendly. They've said just because you act the same way with men and women doesn't mean anything when you're a bisexual. That whole 'British Subtlety', I'm an EPIC FAIL at it. I can read it, but I can't mimic it. I blame it on spending large chunks of my childhood in Germany, Jewish family influence and being deaf. I suspect Deaf culture is more blunt than the American or Israeli cultures.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

monemi said:


> Friends have said that I always flirt and so does my Dad and then made fun of me for my version of intentionally flirting being too blunt. I've argued that isn't flirting, I'm just friendly. They've said just because you act the same way with men and women doesn't mean anything when you're a bisexual. That whole 'British Subtlety', I'm an EPIC FAIL at it. I can read it, but I can't mimic it. I blame it on spending large chunks of my childhood in Germany, Jewish family influence and being deaf. I suspect Deaf culture is more blunt than the American or Israeli cultures.


I used to be really terrible at it. I remember there was this guy I met that I really liked. I basically invited him to get a cup of coffee with me anytime he wanted and he then mistook me for a hooker- true story. I've also had the experience of guys being extremely interested in me, only to totally blow it with them giving me a look - as if to state: "Is she for real?". I can laugh about it now but back then . . . :crying:


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

@Myoho Traveller, I wouldnt say it doesnt warrant for deeper discussion but that it goes against the nature of this particular thread which has been a talk on the surface level. Once we get deeper we inevitably change the whole topic of dicussion of men getting friendzoned to the innate differences between all individuals within the groups of men and women. 

All im saying is youre acting surprised about what you see when it should be expected if the discussion is revolved around the surface level. The moment you change from the surface level to a more in depth analyzation the whole dynamics of the conversation and the thread changes losing its original premise. Now if you want to go deeper we can, im just saying dont be surprised by the generalizations and stereotypes when talking about a surface level topic because those concepts come with surface level discussions.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Shadow Logic, what I am surprised by is how some people seem to not be interested in questioning the stereotypes. I also think that altering the dynamics of this type of thread are desperately necessitated. I do not care about anyone's expectations in this thread or about anything else in life; I am only interested in the truth - which in this case, happens to unfortunately be obscured by generalizations.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Myoho Traveller said:


> @Shadow Logic, what I am surprised by is how some people seem to not be interested in questioning the stereotypes. I also think that altering the dynamics of this type of thread are desperately necessitated. I do not care about anyone's expectations in this thread or about anything else in life; I am only interested in the truth - which in this case, happens to unfortunately be obscured by generalizations.


Yes I understand you do not care for any other truth but only the truth you approve of. Do you know what generalizations are, they are contexts which hold that people with common characteristics have common characteristics. That is a truth, whether you agree with it or not doesnt matter, your truth doesnt discount the fact that people with common characteristics have common characteristics and can be compared to people with common characteristics. The only time a generalization becomes a problem is when we use it to define every individual under these contexts of generalizations. All you want is for the thread to appeal to your way of thinking instead of seeing the truth within the thread. As I said before no one is saying all women do this and all men do that. All we're saying is that people who get friendzoned have common characteristics and the people that they are attracted to who friendzone them may also have common characteristics. Yes we can go further in depth and look at all the differences between each individual, but as I said before, the whole dynamics of the conversation changes. All you implied was that you are not willing to see the truth within this thread but instead you want to conform the thread to your truth.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Shadow Logic said:


> All you implied was that you are willing to see the untruth within this thread but instead you want to conform the thread to your truth.


fixed.

Yup, same difference; lol.

:bored:


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Myoho Traveller said:


> fixed.
> 
> Yup, same difference; lol.
> 
> :bored:


Im sorry but there is no untruth in the fact that any two or more people who have common characteristics have common characteristics. This doesnt discount the fact that those same individuals can have differences but generalities is focused on comparing the common characteristics. As I said its used wrongly when you apply those common characteristics which may be common to a specific group of individuals to every person icluding those outside that group who do not share those same common characteristics. If its not used in that way then the truth of generalities stay in the fact that all who have common characteristics with anyone else also shares those common characteristics. If we're both red, we both show the common characteristic of being red no matter who likes it or not. We can further discuss the different individual characteristics of those who are red but then we are no longer focusing on the common characteristic of being red.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Shadow Logic, what you write is true in GENERAL but decidedly UNTRUE as regards to this thread. If you see in wisdom in the simplistic stereotypes spouted here; who am I to discount it? But, as far as I am concerned - whether or not you approve and/or understand my point is at this juncture, irrelevant to me - this discussion is intellectual vapid and that is why I offered my objections and will not drop them because you see some inherent wisdom in it that I obviously don't.

Our "disagreement" is derailing this thread and not going anywhere fast You are clearly not either going to convince me of the misleading stereotypes' existing "merits" and you are not fully comprehending my reasons to objecting to its generalizations. I don't foresee that changing? Do you? 

:dry:


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

@Myoho Traveller, give me an example when two people who share a common characteristic dont share that common characteristic. As in if two people are red, prove to me that those two people do not show the common characteristic of being red. Its literally impossible to say that anyone who shares common characteristics doesnt share those common characteristics. This thread is focusing on the common characteristics of those who friendzone and those who get friendzoned, therefore it is true that talking about common characteristics (which are the constructs of generalities) stays true to this thread. That is the "inherent wisdom" that you are having trouble seeing while im trying to offer it to you.

I agree we are derailing this thread, If you would like we can end this discussion and part our way, or we can continue this through pm so this thread doesnt get derailed to much.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Shadow Logic said:


> @Myoho Traveller, give me an example when two people who share a common characteristic dont share that common characteristic. As in if two people are red, prove to me that those two people do not show the common characteristic of being red. Its literally impossible to say that anyone who shares common characteristics doesnt share those common characteristics. This thread is focusing on the common characteristics of those who friendzone and those who get friendzoned, therefore it is true that talking about common characteristics (which are the constructs of generalities) stays true to this thread. That is the "inherent wisdom" that you are having trouble seeing while im trying to offer it to you.
> 
> I agree we are derailing this thread, If you would like we can end this discussion and part our way, or we can continue this through pm so this thread doesnt get derailed to much.


l somewhat agreed with your posts about the OP's tone, that tone is present in a lot of threads like this.

But l do think it's unfair that nerdy men are labelled as creepier much easier than a nerdy woman is IME(shared characteristic, different treatment).

And l'm not talking about physical appearance, so much as awkwardness. l was never assumed to be 'creepy', then it was expected that l'd regard men who were as losers because they didn't follow certain norms.



l just got tired of it, l do think it's important to again emphasize that the boundary issue is real in some cases but l trust my judgment about someone's intent.

Though, the perceived boundary issue shouldn't be exaggerated as a way to bully people.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

@Shadow Logic; no I will not give you an example since I already agreed with you in my previous post that what you state, was true in *general*; so there is no need to back up what I've already agreed to.

You say tomato; I say tomato; TRANSLATION: we are NEVER EVER going to agree together. No, I don't care to take this to PM. I would rather be forced to watch endless Mila Kunis flicks with background florescent lighting and a constipated harping seal in the background.

Please excuse me for a moment:


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

The hetero male average in the Western world is 9 sexual partners in a life time with 30% over 15 and 30% under 5. Which means almost half the male population will fall into that 6-9 median and well over half will fall into 0-9. 
My point? 
The _friendzone_ doesn't exist.. Or at least it is not the anomaly.. The_ fuckzone_ is. 

Friendzone is just a euphemism for .. She does not want to fuck me and I have no use for her if she doesn't .. Which is fine if that is how you feel.. But it is a self comforting excuse. The problem is that if the frustration, embarrassment, anger and butthurt rejection you feel becomes contempt for someone who simply does not fancy getting naked with you, you are a fucking self centered piece of shit narcissist who has an extremely narrow field of perception and you should seek immediate professional help. 

Or learn to be grateful to ones who will screw you and don't take it too personally when the other 99.9999999999% wont.. Its pretty much the same for everyone.. _Except in porn_.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

A while a go I saw a comic of two guys talking about how they couldn't find nerdy girls and gamer girls and then one came alone saying she's playing FFVI on SNES and they call her a slut and a fake nerd and when she walks they complain about how they're always friendzoned by women.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Arclight said:


> The problem is that if the frustration, embarrassment, anger and butthurt rejection you feel becomes contempt for someone who simply does not fancy getting naked with you, you are a fucking self centered piece of shit narcissist who has an extremely narrow field of perception and you should seek immediate professional health.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Aya Nikopol said:


> A while a go I saw a comic of two guys talking about how they couldn't find nerdy girls and gamer girls and then one came alone saying she's playing FFVI on SNES and they call her a slut and a fake nerd and when she walks they complain about how they're always friendzoned by women.


Yeah, it's isolated as a male behavior, so much so that girls with the same traits can be viewed as faking it or even worse, being ''insecure''.

As if a girl _shouldn't_ be comfortable with herself unless she chooses acts like a mega b*tch all the time.


Now, l'm not really a 'nerd' as such, by that l mean l wasn't a gamer or anything past the age of 11 or 12.

l do know one official nerd gamer girl who was hardly regarded as a nerd by anyone. 

She was effectively antisocial, obsessed with math (now getting PHD) and decidedly not interested in pretending otherwise but she was also very good-looking and had no trouble with boys _ at all._


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Lady O.W. Bro said:


> Yeah, it's isolated as a male behavior, so much so that girls with the same traits can be viewed as faking it or even worse, being ''insecure''.
> 
> As if a girl _shouldn't_ be comfortable with herself unless she chooses acts like a mega b*tch all the time.
> 
> ...


I'm more of a geeky girl, but I was never regarded as pretty and my role of rejections is huge.
I am still put down for being fairly intelligent and a gamer by my peers.

Then I entered the gaming community. One of my country's gaming journalist told me I'm one of the prettiest most intelligent girls he ever had a pleasure to have dinner with. It was quite the change for me, a huge ego boast for me, because I never had been complimented by a guy who had no second intentions with me.

I've had the behaviour most people points out as female done by makes to me.
Guys can be huge bitches too.

Being a nerd or a gamer girl isn't that hard any more but you're going to feel the 'friendzone' in smaller places.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

I have no sympathy whatsoever for men in the friend zone. This is totally from my subjective experience:

If you are in the friendzone and are not satisfied with being friends, then you are very likely being used, and so you're essentially a tool. De-tool yourself, remember that you're the most important person in your perceptory universe, (optionally) roast the bridge, move on, and avoid people like the one described below.

If you're stringing guys/girls that you know are interested in you along in the friend zone: you are likely a user of people. You want attention, an ego boost, and/or someone else to be available at your call to help you with things. You know or strongly suspect that they're not satisfied there, but you either don't care or are too lazy/unconfident/needy to address the issue head on. You're a massive douche, but you don't know it/ can't admit it to yourself. So work on that, realize you're a douche, cut some strings, and learn to feed your own ego.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

"But most of all, stop thinking that what people so loathingly refer to as the “friendzone” is some sort of purgatory women put “nice guys” into. *My friendship is not a crappy consolation prize* that you’re left with if I deny you a sexual relationship– and *my body is not your reward for good behavior*."

~ Taylor Callobre, The “Good Guy” Myth.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Promethea said:


> "But most of all, stop thinking that what people so loathingly refer to as the “friendzone” is some sort of purgatory women put “nice guys” into. *My friendship is not a crappy consolation prize* that you’re left with if I deny you a sexual relationship– and *my body is not your reward for good behavior*."
> 
> ~ Taylor Callobre, The “Good Guy” Myth.


That is true, but the "friendzone" still sucks for women and men.

I think its a bigger kindness to just avoid the guy or girl who is interested and to not try and turn them into friends. Been there myself, had others there as well...its uncomfortable either way. Distance always makes it easier over time. They need to move on anyway and they can't if the trigger sticks around constantly.

Love is like a sickness, people become dumb & blind while afflicted.

I don't think its as one sided as OP makes it out to be, I know plenty of women in the friendzone and they suffer the same as guys do.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

This might have been mentioned already, but does anyone else think that the "friend zone" actually sounds like a really nice place to be?


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

FreeBeer said:


> I am focusing on that because the rejected party has no control over how he/she feels. To expect them to is pointless.



You don't get a choice about how you feel. You do get a choice how you respond to those feelings. It's not about what happens to you. It's about how you respond to it.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

strangestdude said:


>


So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, the point of this comic is to reinforce the damaging stereotype that women are dumb, illogical sluts who only date assholes? That's called "misogyny".


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Mee2 said:


> So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, the point of this comic is to reinforce the damaging stereotype that women are dumb, illogical sluts who only date assholes? That's called "misogyny".


You sound like you'd be fun at parties.

What's wrong with being dumb, a slut and illogical?


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

strangestdude said:


> You sound like you'd be fun at parties.
> 
> What's wrong with being dumb, a slut and illogical?


So you wouldn't consider it to be a damaging stereotype?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Mee2 said:


> So you wouldn't consider it to be a damaging stereotype?


I asked *you* why you think being dumb, illogical and a slut is bad.

I think the comic is funny.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

strangestdude said:


> I asked *you* why you think being dumb, illogical and a slut is bad.
> 
> I think the comic is funny.


I didn't just choose those terms for their concrete meanings; I chose them because they're pejorative terms, and that's where the meaning is. The comic doesn't just present women as less intelligent, it presents them as dumb. It doesn't present women as promiscuous, it presents them as sluts. See the difference? The author wants people to see women as less than men. It has nothing to do with what I think. 

Also, I'd be very interested in your explanation of why you think it's funny.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Mee2 said:


> I didn't just choose those terms for their concrete meanings; I chose them because they're pejorative terms, and that's where the meaning is. The comic doesn't just present women as less intelligent, it presents them as dumb. It doesn't present women as promiscuous, it presents them as sluts. See the difference? The author wants people to see women as less than men. It has nothing to do with what I think.
> 
> Also, I'd be very interested in your explanation of why you think it's funny.


You're presuming that Fiona represents all women everywhere. She doesn't. Some women are decent and treat others with decency and expect to be treated with decency in return. I find it kind of sexist that you would assume that just because women like Fiona exists, that it somehow means that all women are like that.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Mee2 said:


> The author wants people to see women as less than men.


I interpreted it as a criticism of a minority of women, who venhemently criticize nice guys as being closet assholes "I'm not a machine where..." whilst dating assholes.

But you are are gender-feminist correct? So I guess you are primed to think that any non-positive portrayal of a woman is supposed to be a portrayal of women in general.



> Also, I'd be very interested in your explanation of why you think it's funny.


IME jokes are less funny when they are explained to someone who doesn't think they are funny. I still find the comic funny, so I'd prefer not to do that.


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## Nordom (Oct 12, 2011)

Fine Shrine said:


> I could sit here and blame all men for this one idiot's actions, but I'm not that incredibly ignorant and stupid. It takes a stronger heart to accept, forgive and move on, than it does to blame everyone else.


Amen. It's not like you're giving up on men because one in particular wouldn't leave you alone. I can't understand how anyone can apply the same consistency to each interaction based on a few bad experiences as if each person is going to act in the same manner. There is way too much grey area. 
"Oh you don't want a relationship? I misinterpreted the signs. I can offer a friendship and a tract of land since you seem very upset? Here let me dry those tears first and get you fixed up."


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

strangestdude said:


> I interpreted it as a criticism of a minority of women, who venhemently criticize nice guys as being closet assholes "I'm not a machine where..." whilst dating assholes.


First of all, he's not a nice guy. He's an ugly mofo, chasing a woman who he has no respect for and nothing in common with, simply because she's hot. Not to mention his sense of entitlement. But that's just a side note. The reason it's so offensive is because there are lots of guys who subscribe to this misogynistic view of women, and this comic informs and reinforces such perceptions. 

You say that it's only _criticising_ a minority of women, but I don't think its purpose is to criticise; I think its purpose is to insult. And once you exchange those two terms, the fact that it's a minority doesn't do much to excuse it. 



strangestdude said:


> But you are are gender-feminist correct? So I guess you are primed to think that any non-positive portrayal of a woman is supposed to be a portrayal of women in general.


I've learned not to associate myself with such terms because it prompts people to make false assumptions about my perspective. Besides, it's irrelevant. 



strangestdude said:


> IME jokes are less funny when they are explained to someone who doesn't think they are funny. I still find the comic funny, so I'd prefer not to do that.


I'm pretty sure I get it, actually. It's a joke at the expensive of women. Not something that I find funny. I was just wondering if you'd have some other interpretation.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

marked174 said:


> You're presuming that Fiona represents all women everywhere. She doesn't. Some women are decent and treat others with decency and expect to be treated with decency in return. I find it kind of sexist that you would assume that just because women like Fiona exists, that it somehow means that all women are like that.


Actually, that's what I think the author thinks. Personally, I don't think Fiona is even remotely representative of women everywhere -- that's one of the main reasons why I think the comic is so stupid.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Mee2 said:


> First of all, he's not a nice guy. He's an ugly mofo, chasing a woman who he has no respect for and nothing in common with, simply because she's hot. Not to mention his sense of entitlement. But that's just a side note. The reason it's so offensive is because there are lots of guys who subscribe to this misogynistic view of women, and this comic informs and reinforces such perceptions.
> 
> You say that it's only _criticising_ a minority of women, but I don't think its purpose is to criticise; I think its purpose is to insult. And once you exchange those two terms, the fact that it's a minority doesn't do much to excuse it.
> 
> ...


I'm not interested in analyzing a comic on the internet to this extent.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I'm not interested in analyzing a comic on the internet to this extent.


You take issue with damaging stereotypes about men but you have no interest in analyzing a damaging stereotype about women that you posted?


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> You take issue with damaging stereotypes about men but you have no interest in analyzing a damaging stereotype about women that you posted?


Look at all this selective offense. The comic had two males which it negatively stereotyped and one female which it negatively stereotyped (each with the intent to make a point, a point which is being defended, rendering the term "stereotype" to be less than accurate). Two males and one female, but only the female gets attention at offense. I think it's clear who's really being sexist towards who.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

marked174 said:


> Look at all this selective offense. The comic had two males which it negatively stereotyped and one female which it negatively stereotyped (each with the intent to make a point, a point which is being defended, rendering the term "stereotype" to be less than accurate). Two males and one female, but only the female gets attention at offense. I think it's clear who's really being sexist towards who.



The comic empathizes with the "friendzoned" guys and created it to identify with him. The "playa" got laid and that isn't socially frowned upon for a man.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> The comic empathizes with the "friendzoned" guys and created it to identify with him. The "playa" got laid and that isn't socially frowned upon for a man.


The friendzoned guy is negatively sterotyped; the flowers at the door are a dead giveaway. Scumbag Steve is also a negative stereotype (might actually be the poster boy of negative stereotypes). 

Try harder


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

marked174 said:


> The friendzoned guy is negatively sterotyped; the flowers at the door are a dead giveaway. Scumbag Steve is also a negative stereotype (might actually be the poster boy of negative stereotypes).
> 
> Try harder


Bullshit, "Yeah I think I understand you. You are a machine you put shittiness coins into until sex falls out."


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> Bullshit, "Yeah I think I understand you. You are a machine you put shittiness coins into until sex falls out."


It's a fair criticism. You shouldn't expect good treatment by means of accepting bad treatment. If you'll look closely, it's the same criticism you lob at the "doormats". If it's not offensive when you say it, it shouldn't be offensive when someone else does.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Mee2 said:


> This might have been mentioned already, but does anyone else think that the "friend zone" actually sounds like a really nice place to be?


For people who aren't extremely socially inexperienced with an unwarranted sense of entitlement, accepting a friendship with a person who _just isn't attracted to you_ seems completely normal, yeah? Yeah I think so. 

And besides, friendships often outlast messy romantic entanglements.


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