# Fi and Ni need to be defined better



## Ecchi (Jun 26, 2018)

DavidGH said:


> I was merely aligning both to a psychometric personality system. You think the personality types which have stronger Impersonal functions are all low on Agreeableness?


That's not what I mean by personal and impersonal. I mean personal as in the self, and impersonal as in the group.

Impersonal functions go with the flow.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> I did. He didn’t test MBTI types. MBTI types change over time. Your MBTI type is simply what your preferences are at any given point in time. Someone identifying as a type, or Nardi identifying people as a type, has no bearing on their present behaviors nor mindset, unless the individual is in the process of the MBTI itself.


His study method was this: He had subjects take the official MBTI type indicator and then also asked them if the result felt right to them. I'm not sure if he used the subjects who didn't think the results fit. 
What you are saying here about an MBTI type changing is controversial on this forum and strongly disagreed with by official MBTI. They do not think that you change types in your life. You develop when young and then you are what you are. So no.... I think your way of seeing this would be strongly disagreed with, especially by official MBTI.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> Male/female has nothing to do with this question.
> Whether someone "does something" about something they care about or not has to do with many variables. In general in a cognitive function analysis it would have more to do with extroverted decision functions (Fe or Te) or introverted decision functions (Ti or Fi) and even delving into these ideas wouldn't completely answer your question because of the obstacles or resources in completing the "form of labor".
> "Being emotional" about something might move someone to action or might not depending on the situation. For me, I can think of some very complex and different situations (Ne) where the right thing to do (as determined by my personal Fi) would be to do some kind of action and other very complex and different situations where the right thing to do would mean no action. So my Fi algorithms on this would need to hear about the specific situation.


What? That sounded like “talk about it if you care”


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> His study method was this: He had subjects take the official MBTI type indicator and then also asked them if the result felt right to them. I'm not sure if he used the subjects who didn't think the results fit.
> What you are saying here about an MBTI type changing is controversial on this forum and strongly disagreed with by official MBTI. They do not think that you change types in your life. You develop when young and then you are what you are. So no.... I think your way of seeing this would be strongly disagreed with, especially by official MBTI.



MBTI is a testing mechanism. Not a belief system. It’s a testing instrument for measuring preferences. Preferences can, and as often as not, change over time.

If someone types as one type, and another person types as another type, but then they behaved exactly the same, would their brain activity show up nearly identical or different? Despite what they said about themselves?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> What? That sounded like “talk about it if you care”


"Talk about it if you care?" 
I don't understand. Could you please explain?

I'm saying that what a person with Fi might or might not do would depend on the situation at hand. So I can't tell you if I would take action or not because I do not know the situation you are speaking of, and your question cannot be answered in so general of a way.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Ecchi said:


> That's not what I mean by personal and impersonal. I mean personal as in the self, and impersonal as in the group.
> 
> Impersonal functions go with the flow.


That’s Agreeableness lol. It’s literally in the name.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> "Talk about it if you care?"
> I don't understand. Could you please explain?
> 
> I'm saying that what a person with Fi might or might not do would depend on the situation at hand. So I can't tell you if I would take action or not because I do not know the situation you are speaking of, and your question cannot be answered in so general of a way.


If you “care” about someone, and there is a problem, are you more likely to do physical work until they feel better, or are you more likely to talk to them until they feel better?


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> Ni doms usually say that their thoughts are not in a language or internal dialogue and some have said it's more like thoughts before the actual thoughts materialize, but they can be acted on before they materialize. When symbols were brought up that seemed semi-close, but not close enough. A few disputed that they actually thought in symbols. What do you think or experience? Also, those threads are open in the NT forum right now, I believe.


INFJs usually give a more mystical description of the _introverted intuition_. Because they are half irrational, half rational. Just like Jung. Hidden here you have the solving problem process of INTJ and INTP.






Professional INTPs make fewer mistakes because they are more able to pronounce and establish all eventualities rather than only one. Or just when they are absolutely sure about an idea. Which is a good thing in the world of investigation. A hundred percent universe focused on deductiveness and facts. INTP tend to guide people towards a mesh of ideas-facts giving the most likely to be in the direction of the true. Rather than explain something as the absolute reality unlike a prosecutor. But, as I said before, some people must "slice". These are the judges.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> INFJs usually give a more mystical description of the _introverted intuition_. Because they half irrational, half rational. Just like Jung. Hidden here you have the solving problem process of INTJ and INTP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People who consistently type as INTPs?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> MBTI is a testing mechanism. Not a belief system. It’s a testing instrument for measuring preferences. Preferences can, and as often as not, change over time.
> 
> If someone types as one type, and another person types as another type, but then they behaved exactly the same, would their brain activity show up nearly identical or different? Despite what they said about themselves?


Different. Lets say that a certain social occasion needs a certain behavior for a positive reaction in others. 
In an ENTJ there is a certain area of the brain that determines "appropriateness". 
In an INFJ in a completely different area of the brain they determine "kindness". 
Their action at that moment might be the same and used different parts of the brain. 

As for preferences changing, official MBTI does not think that preferences, in general, change. Although as we grow we develop all of our 4 functions according to MBTI. After age 50 I will likely develop a bit more Si, for example. MBTI preferences are more than just choosing a blue or a red shirt, they are patterns of thinking. Ne is my primary way of dealing with the world that I am expert in, but I have Fi algorithms for decision making and some Te to inform my Fi.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> If you “care” about someone, and there is a problem, are you more likely to do physical work until they feel better, or are you more likely to talk to them until they feel better?


It really depends on the situation. I hear this particular scenario brought up a lot but it is very simplistic. It's usually used to say Fe does action Fi just listens. It's way too simplistic. The best or right thing to do is sometimes work and the best or right thing to do is sometimes to listen. 

More correct would be to ask whether or not when a friend has a problem and you are analyzing what the person should do are you more likely to talk about what the culture and people around them expect and want (Fe) or more likely to either support them or give your personal opinion based on the experience of putting yourself in their place (Fi).


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> Different. Lets say that a certain social occasion needs a certain behavior for a positive reaction in others.
> In an ENTJ there is a certain area of the brain that determines "appropriateness".
> In an INFJ in a completely different area of the brain they determine "kindness".
> Their action at that moment might be the same and used different parts of the brain.
> ...


MBTI is literally a test of a person’s preferences. Your referencing what would most aptly be referred to as MBTI companion commentaries.

The point is, that David Nardi’s tests are simply observations of brain activity, which correspond to present behaviors in the individual, which exist completely separately from their MBTI types. If an individual identifies, by words, as an ENTI, and an individual identifies, by words, as an INFJ, are behaving exactly the same during the tests, their tests will show identical areas of brain activity, independentl of the MBTI types they identify as. David Nardi is not testing a hypothesis, he is simply observing based upon prior statements, independently of the present condition of the individual. His tests have no standard. The MBTI, which he is interested in, is a possible standard. If he took multiple people, asked them to take a standardized test, being the MBTI, and observed the results of both the MBTI and the results of the brain scans, THEN he could analyze the data to attempt to formulate a correlation between the two. Otherwise, he is comparing apples and oranges.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> People who consistently type as INTPs?


I slightly edited my text. But if you mention the video, it comes from the INTP porn ...


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Llyralen said:


> It really depends on the situation. I hear this particular scenario brought up a lot but it is very simplistic. It's usually used to say Fe does action Fi just listens. It's way too simplistic. The best or right thing to do is sometimes work and the best or right thing to do is sometimes to listen.
> 
> More correct would be to ask whether or not when a friend has a problem and you are analyzing what the person should do are you more likely to talk about what the culture and people around them expect and want (Fe) or more likely to either support them or give your personal opinion based on the experience of putting yourself in their place (Fi).



“Are you more likely to” means “have you done this more in the past or have you done this more in the past.”


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> I slightly edited my text. But if you mention the video, it comes from the INTP porn ...



Yeah, not so interested in porn. Sounds nuts.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> MBTI is literally a test of a person’s preferences. Your referencing what would most aptly be referred to as MBTI companion commentaries.
> 
> The point is, that David Nardi’s tests are simply observations of brain activity, which correspond to present behaviors in the individual, which exist completely separately from their MBTI types. If an individual identifies, by words, as an ENTI, and an individual identifies, by words, as an INFJ, are behaving exactly the same during the tests, their tests will show identical areas of brain activity, independentl of the MBTI types they identify as. David Nardi is not testing a hypothesis, he is simply observing based upon prior statements, independently of the present condition of the individual. His tests have no standard. The MBTI, which he is interested in, is a possible standard. Otherwise, he is comparing apples and oranges.


If you want to call a preference for right-handedness or left-handedness then they would be in the same realm of what "preference" means in the MBTI sense. 

Yes, Dario Nardi's tests are observations of brain activity and correspondence to the behaviors of the individual and then finding correlation for those within MBTI type. You are completely wrong about where the same behavior shows up in the brain. Even if we were just talking about neuroscience in general without MBTI then neuroscientists could tell you that people can do the same action using different parts of their brain. 
Dario Nardi IS testing a hypothesis. He is testing a null hypothesis of whether or not consensus can be found within each MBTI type. 



> If he took multiple people, asked them to take a standardized test, being the MBTI, and observed the results of both the MBTI and the results of the brain scans, THEN he could analyze the data to attempt to formulate a correlation between the two.


Your above quote is exactly what he did. What did you think he did? He found ENFPs to be a certain percentile the same. He used the same activities with everyone. There was a LOT to learn from what he did. What did you think he was doing again?


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> “Are you more likely to” means “have you done this more in the past or have you done this more in the past.”


That's a fine interpretation for what I'm saying as far as I can tell. "Are you more likely to" or "Have you done this more?" Sure, those are similar enough, that's fine. Are you just trying to make me post more at this point without actually addressing what I'm saying? 

My point is about the type of question you are using to tell if someone is using Fe or Fi more since that is usually what your scenario tries to accomplish and accomplishes nothing much. As I said, it depends on the situation if someone with Fi will decide to work to help someone or listen to help someone whom they care about.


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## Shrodingers drink (Nov 30, 2018)

Fe values harmony and consensus. Fi seeks individuallity and authenticity. Occasionally you find a Fi user with pseudo Fe values, but most of the time its one of the easier attributes to pick. Then there is the fact there is antagonism between them. With Fi seeing Fe as fake and controlling and Fe seing Fi as selfish and disruptive.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

DavidGH said:


> The original definitions for extrovert and introvert in Jung’s book referenced extrovert and introvert in such a way that they are opposites, but he didn’t really place a tangential line to them for anyone to know what he was specifically referencing.
> 
> In modern usage, outside of typology, extroverts are typically those who are outgoing in the communication sense. However, it’s quite the opposite for those who are very physically engaged with the world.


I'm not familiar with the term 'tangential lines' so I'm unsure what you mean exactly. 

In any case his terms were referring to two opposing adaptation drives that both exist in us but only one is developed to be preferred the most. The drive to protect and reinforce oneself by dominating the environment, by abstracting from it and withdrawing/controlling it (Introversion) and the other to expose oneself fully to the environment and allow oneself to be changed by it with less concern for the self (Extraversion). 

While I think some of the correlations he made were kinda faulty, he does explain those things quite well, the problem most often is that people who read him are doing so from the point of view of the MBTI and Grant stacks which is misleading as they use different and nitpicked definitions to fit into their stack. 
I believe Myers greatly misunderstood the above and just picked from his theories the stuff she liked to reinforce her own which is quite evident in how she defends her view of changing the attitude of the auxiliary to be opposite, as she references a part of his book which talks about something else and takes it out of context to fit her point of view.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Red Panda said:


> I believe Myers greatly misunderstood the above and just picked from his theories the stuff she liked to reinforce her own which is quite evident in how she defends her view of changing the attitude of the auxiliary to be opposite, as she references a part of his book which talks about something else and takes it out of context to fit her point of view.


Why not rather throw the stone to Jung and his contradictions ... Rather than pretending to know the substance of his thought a century later ... Just to change your scratched vinyl...


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> That’s the most pathetic thing yet


or continue, whatever floats your boat


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> or continue, whatever floats your boat


Still pathetic


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Still pathetic


yes.. we're aware by now what you are


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> or continue, whatever floats your boat


Still pathetic


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Still pathetic


look guys i think i short-circuited him :laughing: 

didn't know you'd be that easy to break


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> look guys i think i short-circuited him :laughing:
> 
> didn't know you'd be that easy to break


No you’re just pathetic


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> No you’re just pathetic


like a broken record :laughing:


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> like a broken record :laughing:


Because you’re still pathetic


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Because you’re still pathetic


cya around miss hormonal, hopefully you get better yea?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> cya around miss hormonal, hopefully you get better yea?


Pathetic


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> Sounds like narcissism, to be honest.


Except Fi isn't defined as the reason people lack empathy for others or seeing people as less important. So idk how you can even tie narcissism to a single function, or call an entire group of people narcissists because they share a different psyche pattern then yourself. What are we gonna discriminate people based on type now?

By you definition all introverted functions would = narcissism.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> Except Fi isn't defined as the reason people lack empathy for others or seeing people as less important. So idk how you can even tie narcissism to a single function, or call an entire group of people narcissists because they share a different psyche pattern then yourself. What are we gonna discriminate people based on type now?
> 
> By you definition all introverted functions would = narcissism.


Didn’t mean it in the clinical sense. It does sound like considering one’s own self more important than others, though.

Is there a supposed basis to the egocentricism of Fi?


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> Didn’t mean it in the clinical sense. It does sound like considering one’s own self more important than others, though.
> 
> Is there a supposed basis to the egocentricism of Fi?


I do think Fi can be self absorbed but I don't think Fi is the only function that prioritize itself over others. All introverted functions do that. Fi can see your values as better or worse than theirs or just separate and different than theirs. The basis of egocentrisim of Fi is simply that it sees itself in the equation and considers that valuable. Equal, less or more is based on comparison.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> I do think Fi can be self absorbed but I don't think Fi is the only function that prioritize itself over others. All introverted functions do that. Fi can see your values as better or worse than theirs or just separate and different than theirs. The basis of egocentrisim of Fi is simply that it sees itself in the equation and considers that valuable. Equal, less or more is based on comparison.


I think that what I’m probably thinking of is that whereas the other three introverted functions are concerned with other things, Fi is concerned with feeling and emotions and values, but those things are pretty unanimously equal amongst everyone. So whereas the other introverted functions may place various things above others’, they aren’t placing basic humanity above others’, which is a lot how your description came across.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

DavidGH said:


> I think that what I’m probably thinking of is that whereas the other three introverted functions are concerned with other things, Fi is concerned with feeling and emotions and values, but those things are pretty unanimously equal amongst everyone. So whereas the other introverted functions may place various things above others’, they aren’t placing basic humanity above others’, which is a lot how your description came across.


I def don't think Fi places its humanity above other's. Values sure, likes and dislikes sure, but humanity, no, Fi sees itself as independent but also sees other's as independent. Like cars, I have a car and it's very important to me I don't want it to be damaged, someone else has a car it must be just as important to them and they don't want it damaged, my car isn't just important, the other's isn't only important, cars all together are important, but I only know that because of how important I think cars are myself, and I can only assume other's feel the same.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> I def don't think Fi places its humanity above other's. Values sure, likes and dislikes sure, but humanity, no, Fi sees itself as independent but also sees other's as independent. Like cars, I have a car and it's very important to me I don't want it to be damaged, someone else has a car it must be just as important to them and they don't want it damaged, my car isn't just important, the other's isn't only important, cars all together are important, but I only know that because of how important I think cars are myself, and I can only assume other's feel the same.


Hmmmmmm. I’m going to try and think of an appropriate word.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> Pathetic


repetition mod... 

>
>
>
>
> ISTJ program detected.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> repetition mod...
> 
> >
> >
> ...


That was a weird emo aggro lol. Other guy, not you


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> I def don't think Fi places its humanity above other's. Values sure, likes and dislikes sure, but humanity, no, Fi sees itself as independent but also sees other's as independent. Like cars, I have a car and it's very important to me I don't want it to be damaged, someone else has a car it must be just as important to them and they don't want it damaged, my car isn't just important, the other's isn't only important, cars all together are important, but I only know that because of how important I think cars are myself, and I can only assume other's feel the same.


“egoistic
Egoistic people believe we all put our own needs before those of others. If you're sure that self-interest inspires every human action — yes, even rescuing that sweet kitten from a tree — then you, my friend, are egoistic.

Don't confuse egoistic with egotistic, a word which is often, and wrongly, used interchangeably with it. To be egotistic is to have too inflated an opinion of yourself — in other words, it's a form of self-delusion rather than a particular way of looking at the world. You can be egoistic without being egotistic. Got it?“

That sounds like what you described.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> That was a weird emo aggro lol. Other guy, not you


that's ironic, considering you were spewing emo insults a couple pages ago

is projecting the only thing you know how to do well?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> yeah? go on tell everyone why you think that, otherwise it's just an empty word
> 
> you do know that, right?


Pathetic.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Pathetic.


yeah? go on tell everyone why you think that, otherwise it's just an empty word

you do know that, right?


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

In fact not so different. It's like a mixture of similarities and opposing tendencies. In some another contexts, the agreement may be good.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> In fact not so different. It's like a mixture of similarities and opposing tendencies.


eh wouldn't say that, i'm just spamming back a response to something he's spamming


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)




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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> In fact not so different. It's like a mixture of similarities and opposing tendencies. In some another contexts, the agreement may be good.


Barking up the wrong tree, man.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

sweet morphine said:


>


wish i could make it more entertaining for everyone, but he just says the same thing lol


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> eh wouldn't say that, i'm just spamming back a response to something he's spamming



Pathetic.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Pathetic.


see


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

sweet morphine said:


>



I thought that was an effed up rabbit giant face.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> I thought that was an effed up rabbit giant face.


Typical _inferior extraverted intuition_


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> see



Pathetic.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Typical _inferior extraverted intuition_


No one cares.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Pathetic.


you realize everyone is laughing at you, right my man?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Convex said:


> you realize everyone is laughing at you, right my man?


Pathetic.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Pathetic.


:laughing:


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

DavidGH said:


> I thought that was an effed up rabbit giant face.


Noo, _this_ is a rabbit









See how much you're learning today roud:


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

sweet morphine said:


> Noo, _this_ is a rabbit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


careful, he might call you pathetic :laughing:


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Technically the ISTJ is more enduring and stubborn in the repetition. In fact it's even a nice thing for this type. Repetition makes it balanced, more stable and finally stronger. It's the _introverted sensation_. When the ESTP will realize it, he will be tired and move to another thing. But only when his tertiary function will be appeased.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> Technically the ISTJ is more enduring and stubborn in the repetition. In fact it's even nice thing for him. *Repetition makes it balanced, more stable and finally stronger.* It's the _introverted sensation_. When the ESTP realizes it, he will be tired and move to another thing when its tertiary function will be appeased.


to no one but him, i suppose so lol


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Fuck sake!


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

This thread should be in spam


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Kynx said:


> Fuck sake!


You don't see the purpose ... But right now, we work on the _introverted intuition_ since #256


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> You don't see the purpose ... But right now, we work on the _introverted intuition_ since #256


Still gross.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> Still gross.


Not exactly sir. Just a more or less predictive flow that appear as a perfect obviousness. Depending on the degree of concentration, imagine a slider on a ruler. Now imagine the puppets and select the one according to the perfect personality... You have the _introverted intuition_ in its most negative form.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Not exactly sir. Just a more or less predictive flow that appear as a perfect obviousness. Depending on the degree of concentration, imagine a slider on a ruler. Now imagine the puppets and select the one according to the perfect personality... You have the _introverted intuition_ in its most negative form.


No. I’m just older.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> No. I’m just older.


An me younger. But the puppet is timeless. Goes through the ages as an eternal victim.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> An me younger. But the puppet is timeless. Goes through the ages as an eternal victim.


I’m able to understand you, because I have two daughters, and you talk like a girl.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> I’m able to understand you, because I have two daughters, and you talk like a girl.


Your daughters have a great potential. Take care of them.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Your daughters have a great potential. Take care of her.


Them*


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much.


They are confused because mbti tries to fit a dominant perceiver (Ni) as a judging type and vice-versa for Fi dom. 



Aluminum Frost said:


> So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up,


yes



Aluminum Frost said:


> these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing.


yeah bro, but those aren't the original definitions, those are mostly made up by enthusiast bloggers in their teens or 20's 

Ni is irrational, it's stuff that happens to the individual, they had a hunch or something.

Fi is rational, they ponder decisions based on personal values constantly.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> They are confused because mbti tries to fit a dominant perceiver (Ni) as a judging type and vice-versa for Fi dom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weird how different MBTI and Socionics are. You basically just described people with practically zero Ni and Fi.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Casus Belli said:


> You don't see the purpose ... But right now, we work on the _introverted intuition_ since #256


It's the bickering which caused me to roll my eyes. Other people don't want to read through all that bickering. It's become a pointless thread


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

DavidGH said:


> Weird how different MBTI and Socionics are. You basically just described people with practically zero Ni and Fi.


Well I describe people based on how I see things and that is probably based on my "prefered" functions or whatever, I don't know how each type of person will interpret that. But you mean it described zero Ni and Fi based on mbti? Because the way I see it, mbti is wrong, and whatever characteristics people ususally ascribe to it are unrelated to type. If not, I'm curious to what are the differences between Fi and Ni in your opinion.

What I meant by things unrelated to type is for instance "daydreaming", a lot of time I see people from mbti describe Ni as daydreaming. Jung already adressed this stuff on Psychological Types and it is unrelated to type. If people actually stopped and read stuff, they would know that instead of making shit up.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Well I describe people based on how I see things and that is probably based on my "prefered" functions or whatever, I don't know how each type of person will interpret that. But you mean it described zero Ni and Fi based on mbti? Because the way I see it, mbti is wrong, and whatever characteristics people ususally ascribe to it are unrelated to type. If not, I'm curious to what are the differences between Fi and Ni in your opinion.
> 
> What I meant by things unrelated to type is for instance "daydreaming", a lot of time I see people from mbti describe Ni as daydreaming. Jung already adressed this stuff on Psychological Types and it is unrelated to type. If people actually stopped and read stuff, they would know that instead of making shit up.


For Socionics, using “personal” or “individualistic” to describe a function means that you’re describing what most would consider either a weak function or a function that isn’t capable of recognizing cultural norms for such. MBTI often conflates “what” with “how much.”

For Socionics Fi is language comprehension and Ni is episodic memory. For MBTI it’s more difficult, because the functions have to have descriptions that are contrarian to their own selves in attempts to shoe-horn the logical inconsistency that is the J/P flip flop for introverts dom/aux.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

It's terrible to see the damage that socionics do in people's minds. Unable to typing themself after years ... This confuses people already lost. Really recurrent.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> It's terrible to see the damage that socionics do in people's minds. Unable to typing themself after years ... This confuses people already lost. Really recurrent.


Says the ESE.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> Says the ESE.


See.


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Casus Belli said:


> It's terrible to see the damage that socionics do in people's minds. Unable to typing themself after years ... This confuses people already lost. Really recurrent.


Yeah... And it's terrible to see what Myers Briggs does for most people stuck in between types.


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.


This is precisely the kind of thing I was talking about in my reintroduction to the forum. Sometimes people just force themselves into a box to be able to "fit" into a type, because they think they understand the functions. 
I have literally read posts in which a person is describing why they feel they lead with Fi by plagiarizing websites that describe said function only to have other forum members ostricize the choice of words used, and how this could never be Fi because of X, Y and Z. It is maddening.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Actually, according to Jung Ni is also related to Ne and they are part of the same spectrum, meaning no one can be 100% Ni or 100% Ne, they will always have both. This is something MBTI have sort of ignored, they treat Ni and Ne as completely separate functions


If they’re actually real things that exist as part of the human brain, they’d have to all exist in various amounts, or the person would effectively be a vegetable.

I’ve always considered the functions to relate to various parts of the brain, with the person’s type being the order of operations for the various parts, and Socionics being the the increased/decreased neurobiological capabilities of the areas of the brain compared to the norm.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

Aluminum Frost said:


> I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.


I'm not about to go through 31 pages of this thread, so I have no idea how this idea developed and how people have talked about this past your first post.

Fi and Ni are very difficult to define because they're both so abstract. One's value system, one's internal intuition - both of those are very abstract and if they're personalised by their Introverted attitude, then every person's experience of them is going to be a little different from everyone else's. I would imagine that this is the same with Ti and Si as well - two Ti types may think very similar, but Ti can be used in different ways and Si can be used in different ways as well. 

With the Introverted attitude, functions take on a very subjective quality and so the experience of them is so nuanced for each individual. 

It seems that maybe they could be defined better, but they're defined the way they are and I guess we just have to make due with that. One way around it would be to look for the polarised inferior function, but I'm sure you know that.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

If you understand Feeling and you understand Introversion, then there should be no problem understanding Fi. If you don't understand Fi then you're not understanding the basis of it (either Feeling, Introversion or both)
Understanding Si should quickly follow that.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Maryalliss said:


> If you understand Feeling and you understand Introversion, then there should be no problem understanding Fi. If you don't understand Fi then you're not understanding the basis of it (either Feeling, Introversion or both)
> Understanding Si should quickly follow that.


That doesn’t mean the definitions of feeling and introversion line up with the definition of introverted feeling.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> That doesn’t mean the definitions of feeling and introversion line up with the definition of introverted feeling.


It does if you're basing your analysis off of Jung.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

brightflashes said:


> It does if you're basing your analysis off of Jung.


Introversion: reception from the environment and subsequent result. Feeling: emotions. Introverted Feeling: reception of feelings of the environment and return of the combination of such. None of that matches Introverted Feeling from MBTI cognitive functions. It matches extroverted Feeling, and vice versa.


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## brightflashes (Oct 27, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Introversion: reception from the environment and subsequent result. Feeling: emotions. Introverted Feeling: reception of feelings of the environment and return of the combination of such. None of that matches Introverted Feeling from MBTI cognitive functions. It matches extroverted Feeling, and vice versa.


This isn't how Jung defined the functions or attitudes, though so ... whatever. I'm not going to argue with you, though. I did that once in the past and I really didn't like the way it turned out, so I'm going to call it quits now.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

brightflashes said:


> This isn't how Jung defined the functions or attitudes, though so ... whatever. I'm not going to argue with you, though. I did that once in the past and I really didn't like the way it turned out, so I'm going to call it quits now.


You’re welcome to quote him. I believe it’s chapter 11.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

All the Typology [definitions] are poor.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Okay so I found posts from a blog I wrote hundreds of years ago. These descriptions are probably terrible but it was written when I was into cognitive functions so I hope it helps at least?



> . Dominant Position (ISFP and INFP): Uses their own personal values to evaluate their interpersonal relationships between individuals. Highly confident in evaluating the consistency of moral or ethical qualities in others. An Fi-dom therefore may appear judgmental or self-righteous. Can instantly decide if they are drawn or repelled to a person, recognize friend between foe based on their underlying intentions. They firmly hold onto their belief of good and bad, or right vs wrong. These feelings are often hidden however, unless something provokes a strong negative reaction from them. They are highly sensitive to what they perceive the concepts of honour, duty, or morality to be. Own feelings and values are more important than external public ones. Because they develop their values subjectively, they may deviate from accepted social norms, and as a result may be misunderstood.





> .Ni/Introverted Intuition has an subjective impression from the external world, which moves away from the external object itself and begins to realize it’s own interpretation and what ideas this has released in the mind of the Introverted Intuitive; the focus of inner possibilities. From all the functions, Ni is the most related to the unconscious perception, based from Jung’s definition, hence the “hunches” and sudden realizations discussed in MBTI descriptions. It filters the external perception of the object, just as all the introverted functions do, which makes them subjective (based on the interpretation of the individual rather than extending it’s knowledge into the external environment, which is what all the extroverted functions do. Ni is abstract impressions and the underlying symbolism taken from a physical object (Se).


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Okay so I found posts from a blog I wrote hundreds of years ago.


When orc and fairies were at war... When darkness fell on the old world. I also remember ...


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> When orc and fairies were at war... When darkness fell on the old world. I also remember ...


Cuz you're probably orc ;p


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Yes, and you know what the Orcs did ... They smeared fly paper ribbon with magic powder ... So early the little fairies were irresistibly attracted ...And the coarse creatures had only to recover the poor and unhappy fairies... Then... Then you are too young for the following my little fairie.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> Yes, and you know what the Orcs did ... They smeared tat fly paper ribbon with magic powder ... So early the little fairies were irresistibly attracted ...And the coarse creatures had only to recover the poor and unhappy fairies... Then... Then you are too young for the following my little fairie.


...That's it i'm changing my avatar !


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> ...That's it i'm changing my avatar !


Don't!


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Okay, people, so I have a question for you.... I have a family member who keeps bothering me about joining her to protest wildlife extinction because of climate change, etc.
I have always told her that, yes, I agree with all of the topics that she's fighting for out there by rallying. 
However, I believe that by rallying you don't really have a direct result... It's more like a self-expression... like some sort of art you make public to get your point across.
Instead, I choose to guide generation Z, which is the generation I teach, by planting the idea in their heads that they will one day inherit this Earth and they should keep it a little bit better than my generation did. Parents usually get a little annoyed at me... they say I influence their children to not throw things away because they can turn it into art or they can repurpose it.

Anyway, my family member got personal this week when she really pushed, trying to guilt-trip me by saying that if I really care about the future of the children of this world I should go to this rally and take Friday off to do so. 
This was my response to her:

"Dearest Sis in Law: I've given a lot of thought to your invitation tomorrow. I, however, cannot bring myself to leave my students this Friday. I do very important work with them both psychologically as well as environmentally. And Friday is our psychology day, taught through a program called Second Step. If there were to be results from this rally then I would possibly go and do it but I feel that this is merely an expression of people's souls. I think it's great that people are doing this...but I feel like I need to, as I said before, work with the children under my care so that they will be better citizens of the future and fix the horrible realities that they will inherit."

Now, if I have this right, my sis in law is acting out her Fi. 
I *think* I'm acting on Fe, but I don't know if this is considered Fe...I have my students in mind and their need to feel safe and solve socio- emotional problems so they can be awesome adults some day. 
I don't know, though. I don't know if I am also Fi'ing, here.....
See, hence the messy, crazy confusion of applying the functions into a real world scenario....what would you say?


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Maryalliss said:


> If you understand Feeling and you understand Introversion, then there should be no problem understanding Fi. If you don't understand Fi then you're not understanding the basis of it (either Feeling, Introversion or both)
> Understanding Si should quickly follow that.


An introverted thinker who understands the concept of feeling and introversion, I doubt it would be easy for him/her to understand the concept of introverted feeling, they'd probably have more trouble trying to grasp it than they would with extraverted feeling.

That was kinda fallacious what you did there, it was like saying "if someone understands "quantity" and understands physics, that means they understand quantum physics."


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Cacaia said:


> Okay, people, so I have a question for you.... I have a family member who keeps bothering me about joining her to protest wildlife extinction because of climate change, etc.
> I have always told her that, yes, I agree with all of the topics that she's fighting for out there by rallying.
> However, I believe that by rallying you don't really have a direct result... It's more like a self-expression... like some sort of art you make public to get your point across.
> Instead, I choose to guide generation Z, which is the generation I teach, by planting the idea in their heads that they will one day inherit this Earth and they should keep it a little bit better than my generation did. Parents usually get a little annoyed at me... they say I influence their children to not throw things away because they can turn it into art or they can repurpose it.
> ...


By Jung she's acting on FI, by MBTI it's Fe.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Felipe said:


> An introverted thinker who understands the concept of feeling and introversion, I doubt it would be easy for him/her to understand the concept of introverted feeling, they'd probably have more trouble trying to grasp it than they would with extraverted feeling.
> 
> That was kinda fallacious what you did there, it was like saying "if someone understands "quantity" and understands physics, that means they understand quantum physics."


Introverted functions derive their contents from the primordial images, contained within the collective unconscious. 

The Feeling function determines importance according to worth/value.

Therefore, Introverted Feeling determines importance according to worth/values derived from the primordial images, contained within the collective unconscious. 

If you understand the first two definitions, then you will understand the 3rd definition. 

Many people don't seem to understand at least one, of the first two.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Maryalliss said:


> Introverted functions derive their contents from the primordial images, contained within the collective unconscious.
> 
> The Feeling function determines importance according to worth/value.
> 
> ...


The first one isn’t real.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

DavidGH said:


> The first one isn’t real.


It's arguable that functions aren't real, too.
However, if we're discussing functions, then it makes sense to discuss them within the context of the actual theory they were built on. Too many people believe they can dismiss the foundation of the function theory and still keep the functions.

If anybody is actually interested in understanding the theory properly, I'm happy to explain. If people want to argue that introverted functions are real, but the collective unconscious is not, I'll leave you to it. Such a claim simply confirms that they're arguing about something they don't understand. Arguing with such people gets really old.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Cacaia said:


> I have a family member who keeps bothering me about joining her to protest wildlife extinction because of climate change, etc.
> ....what would you say?


_"Dearest Sis in Law": the white bear will not disappear, but it will mix genetically with brown bears or grizzly bears on european and american continent. That already exists, it's the "grolar". Stop paranoia.

My reasoning is dishonest?

So what about our white subspecie, which represents only 5% of the global population, and their natural boundaries not respected either ... And that this population will have greatly diminished in 2050.

You call my reasoning racist ... So you can tell your friends that I only follow people who respect themselves. And that "the two weights, two measures", this has a name: hypocrisy._

_Best regards_.


You'll thank me later.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Maryalliss said:


> It's arguable that functions aren't real, too.
> However, if we're discussing functions, then it makes sense to discuss them within the context of the actual theory they were built on. Too many people believe they can dismiss the foundation of the function theory and still keep the functions.
> 
> If anybody is actually interested in understanding the theory properly, I'm happy to explain. If people want to argue that introverted functions are real, but the collective unconscious is not, I'll leave you to it. Such a claim simply confirms that they're arguing about something they don't understand. Arguing with such people gets really old.


You can’t explain it, if you don’t understand it.

You said you could provide a definition, and simply provided the need for another definition. If you’re going to define a fictitious term, utilize real terms to do such. Not to mention your first sentence wasn’t even correct in the context of the discussion, anyways. How you cherrypicked a nonsensical definition instead of any other parts of the several thousands of words by Jung is beyond me.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

DavidGH said:


> You can’t explain it, if you don’t understand it.
> 
> You said you could provide a definition, and simply provided the need for another definition. If you’re going to define a fictitious term, utilize real terms to do such. Not to mention your first sentence wasn’t even correct in the context of the discussion, anyways. How you cherrypicked a nonsensical definition instead of any other parts of the several thousands of words by Jung is beyond me.



The collective unconscious isn't cherrypicking Jungs works. It was the foundation of Jungs works. The functions are a tiny spin off from his collective unconscious theory.

Introverted functions theoretically exist on the basis that the collective unconscious theoretically exists. Plain and simple.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> If you’re going to define a fictitious term, utilize real terms to do such.



The polar bear is certainly a good example symbol of the collective unconscious.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Maryalliss said:


> The collective unconscious isn't cherrypicking Jungs works. It was the foundation of Jungs works. The functions are a tiny spin off from his collective unconscious theory.
> 
> Introverted functions theoretically exist on the basis that the collective unconscious theoretically exists. Plain and simple.


So basically you don’t know what you’re talking about.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> The polar bear is certainly a good example symbol of the collective unconscious.



So is your mom.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

DavidGH said:


> So basically you don’t know what you’re talking about.


No, you don't know what I'm talking about, clearly.

I'm not going to get into a bickering contest with you. Go back to Jung and we can pick this up again once you're adequately informed on the topic.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Maryalliss said:


> No, you don't know what I'm talking about, clearly.
> 
> I'm not going to get into a bickering contest with you. Go back to Jung and we can pick this up again once you're adequately informed on the topic.


I know you don’t know what you’re talking about. You should try reading Jung.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> So is your mom.


But in Texas, there is an exception, it's the cow.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> But in Texas, there is an exception, it's the cow.


Your mom’s from Texas?


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> Your mom’s from Texas?


I knew this mother cow story would excite you ...


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Maryalliss said:


> Introverted functions derive their contents from the primordial images, contained within the collective unconscious.


I think that's more introverted intuition, no?



Maryalliss said:


> Many people don't seem to understand at least one, of the first two.


I know, that's what I was talking about at the beginning of the topic: they figure "I'm shy and socially awkward, therefore I am an introvert" but this isn't always the case. Unlike Jung, mbti generalizes everything, sometimes you see descriptions online going:

Fi = when you are sensitive about stuff
Ni = when you know it all about stuff without having experienced it before.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> I think that's more introverted intuition, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those still sound like terrible manifestations of their Socionics counterparts lol. That Fi is basically Socionics 1D Fe. That Ni is basically 1D Ni, remembering information but not having the episodic memory to recall from where.

Jung’s concept of collective unconscious was basically biology and reproduction of a species. In this regards, as I contrasted to the quoted previously, Introverted + Feeling basically equals emotions and hormones. It’s either the hypothalamus or thalamus, basically.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

@Felipe Starts on chapter 10 https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...ected-Works-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Ni = when you know it all about stuff without having experienced it before.


Generally it's the INFJ who tell these stupidities. This is their mystical side: _suddenly, everything comes from a superior force._ They are not very balanced by thought.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

DavidGH said:


> Jung’s concept of collective unconscious was basically biology and reproduction of a species.


Are you sure? I thought it was basically the things our unconscious mind gathered over the centuries and remained in our genes and sometimes appear as crazy images in dreams that have to be interpreted. I'm probably talking nonsense there but whatever xD


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

DavidGH said:


> @Felipe Starts on chapter 10 https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...ected-Works-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf


Thanks, this is more complete than what I've found, I'll check it out.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Are you sure? I thought it was basically the things our unconscious mind gathered over the centuries and remained in our genes and sometimes appear as crazy images in dreams that have to be interpreted. I'm probably talking nonsense there but whatever xD


He developed the concept before the advent of the human genome. He did basically state as you did, but what he was describing, as in what actually exists, was the genetic species of humanity. If you read through the actual descriptions he gives for such, he’s basically describing how the brain responds via emotions to the health of the organism.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Thanks, this is more complete than what I've found, I'll check it out.



No problem. It’s the book that originated all the nonsense. Looks like the full book.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Are you sure? I thought it was basically the things our unconscious mind gathered over the centuries and remained in our genes and sometimes appear as crazy images in dreams that have to be interpreted. I'm probably talking nonsense there but whatever xD


The snake is the devious, the sexual energy, the manipulative ... At times hypnotizing and repulsive. Whatever civilizations. Like the giant spider and the mother. Controlling, invasive, weaving his web around you. Often placed in front of the exits of a room ... The shark and your own impulsive behavior that puts you in danger ...

This kind of thing are the collective unconscious.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> The snake is the devious, the sexual energy, the manipulative ... At times hypnotizing and repulsive. Whatever civilizations. Like the giant spider and the mother. Controlling, invasive, weaving his web around you. Often placed in front of the exits of a room ... The shark and your own impulsive behavior that puts you in danger ...
> 
> This kind of thing are the collective unconscious.


Girl language.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

@Felipe

Jung refers to archetypes/primordial images as determining the decisive factor, and the objective as only a stimulus, etc. in every introverted function type description. 

"* The introverted attitude is normally governed by the psychological structure, theoretically determined by heredity, but which to the subject is an ever present subjective factor.* This must not be assumed, however, to be simply identical with the subject's ego, an assumption that is certainly implied in the above mentioned designations of Weininger; * it is rather the psychological structure of the subject that precedes any development of the ego. *" 


"The archetype is a symbolical formula, which always begins to function whenever there are no conscious ideas present, or when such as are present are impossible upon intrinsic or extrinsic grounds. The contents of the collective unconscious are represented in consciousness in the form of pronounced tendencies, or definite ways of looking at things. *They are generally regarded by the individual as being determined by the object -- incorrectly, at bottom -- since they have their source in the unconscious structure of the psyche, and are only released by the operation of the object.* These subjective tendencies and ideas are stronger than the objective influence; because their psychic value is higher, *they are superimposed upon all impressions.*" 

"*Introverted thinking* is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, * but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject,* although it may undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, * that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision.* "

" *Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor.......
...Since it is primarily controlled by subjective pre-conditions, and is only secondarily concerned with the object......
... Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision.* From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus."

"*Subjective perception* differs remarkably from the objective. It is either not found at all in the object, or, at most, merely suggested by it; it can, however, be similar to the sensation of other men, although not immediately derived from the objective behaviour of things. It does not impress one as a mere product of consciousness -- it is too genuine for that. But it makes a definite psychic impression, since elements of a higher psychic order are perceptible to it. * This order, however, does not coincide with the contents of consciousness. It is concerned with presuppositions, or dispositions of the collective unconscious, with mythological images, with primal possibilities of ideas.* The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the subjective factor has some meaning. To another, a reproduced subjective impression seems to suffer from the defect of possessing insufficient similarity with the object; it seems, therefore, to have failed in its purpose. Subjective sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. * The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images,* which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. 

* Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types.*


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> Girl language.



It's the Freud language. 

But this is also the language of the Bible. The Celts saw the snake as a hell symbol although not dangerous in westhern europe. Apophis had also a negative meaning. And when the snake is revered, it gives Quetzalcoatl and their human sacrifices.

If you are not a woman, stop studyng psychology. Psychology magazines are feminine, isn't it... Since you are here, your voice is already more acute, and you're wearing a pink tshirt ...

Seriously, you're a caricature of the texan men with a double-digit IQ ... You are not an example of virility.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> It's the Freud language.
> 
> But this is also the language of the Bible. The Celts also saw the snake as a hell symbol although not dangerous in the north europe. Apophis also has a negative meaning. When he is revered, it gives Quetzalcoatl and human sacrifices.
> 
> ...


I’m not studying psychology lol

That’s a weird thing to say lol


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> I’m not studying psychology lol
> 
> That’s a weird thing to say lol


Too late. During your next rodeo I'll tell your texan friends that you're on PerC and you are shave under your arms. Or this could be contagious.


----------



## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Too late. During your next rodeo I'll tell your texan friends that you're on PerC and you are shave under your arms. Or this could be contagious.


They’d probably think you’re funny lol. It’s a funny thing to say, because it’s funny lol. Your x’s and o’s are backwards, homie.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> The snake is the devious, the sexual energy, the manipulative ... At times hypnotizing and repulsive. Whatever civilizations. Like the giant spider and the mother. Controlling, invasive, weaving his web around you. Often placed in front of the exits of a room ... The shark and your own impulsive behavior that puts you in danger ...
> 
> This kind of thing are the collective unconscious.


I think there's a reason most people have an innate fear of spiders, and not just the obvious fact that they're freaks with too many legs. They were probably venomous or their bites caused infection. Same with the snakes.

I had no idea the collective unconscious was about basic instincts though, so that's interesting. I learn something new everyday \o/


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> I think there's a reason most people have an innate fear of spiders, and not just the obvious fact that they're freaks with too many legs. They were probably venomous or their bites caused infection. Same with the snakes.


I'm talking about the dream meaning. I think the wide abdomen is reminiscent of the size of mothers who have already given birth. Obviously it is a very negative vision of the mother. It may be more particularly present in some communities where the mother has a more important role, too fusional, insestuous ...

In reality, depending on the size, I crush them or let them live. Because they catches mosquitoes, flies and little fai.... Well... I have been so bitten I have to pay attention to my hand movements. My dna is probably modified.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Imagine talking about the collective unconsious and primordial images when you're high ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Also its ironic how i see people calling psychology a feminine study while discussing the psychological types theories invented by two maybe slightly misogynistic men.


----------



## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> I think there's a reason most people have an innate fear of spiders, and not just the obvious fact that they're freaks with too many legs. They were probably venomous or their bites caused infection. Same with the snakes.
> 
> I had no idea the collective unconscious was about basic instincts though, so that's interesting. I learn something new everyday \o/


https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...rks-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf#page362

Page 362, paragraph 624


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> I'm talking about the dream meaning. I think the wide abdomen is reminiscent of the size of mothers who have already given birth. Obviously it is a very negative vision of the mother. It may be more particularly present in some communities where the mother has a more important role, too fusional, insestuous ...
> 
> In reality, depending on the size, I crush them or let them live. Because they catches mosquitoes, flies and little fai.... Well... I have been so bitten I have to pay attention to my handle movements. My dna is probably modified.


How can you compare a mother to a freaking spider?? It's not only spiders that have a wide abdomen lol. If you are also associating women with snakes, women call men "snakes" all the time. But yes snakes symbolise either the lustful or just the plain toxic and manipulative. You're talking about your own associations which would be an example of Ni i guess.

Yeah probably affected your dna  Things affect your dna everyday whether you realise it or not.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Imagine talking about the collective unconsious and primordial images when you're high ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
> 
> Also its ironic how i see people calling psychology a feminine study while discussing the psychological types theories invented by two maybe slightly misogynistic men.



They weren’t able to explain anything in a way that would gravitate towards the practical nature of men on average. Think about it like psychology vs psychiatry, or within psychology: behavioral therapy vs psychoanalysis.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Imagine talking about the collective unconsious and primordial images when you're high ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Coming from you it's a compliment. I preferred your Christmas avatar. But you have advance over the Halloween period. Like stores.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> How can you compare a mother to a freaking spider?? It's not only spiders that have a wide abdomen lol. If you are also associating women with snakes, women call men "snakes" all the time. But yes snakes symbolise either the lustful or just the plain toxic and manipulative. You're talking about your own associations which would be an example of Ni i guess.
> 
> Yeah probably affected your dna  Things affect your dna everyday whether you realise it or not.



He’s comparing archetypes to archetypical mothers. Emphasis on the “type” in archetype. Various recurring themes concerning poor or worse mothers.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> https://www.jungiananalysts.org.uk/...rks-Volume-6_-Psychological-Types.pdf#page362
> 
> Page 362, paragraph 624


Archetypes are an inborn aspect of personality too then? I heard of the collective unconscious and the other terms but i always thought it meant something that was based on personal experiences and memory. 



DavidGH said:


> They weren’t able to explain anything in a way that would gravitate towards the practical nature of men on average. Think about it like psychology vs psychiatry, or within psychology: behavioral therapy vs psychoanalysis.


Are you saying psychology/behavioural therapy is more feminine than psychiatry? Probably. I know guys who studied social sciences but they weren't typically masculine. Not all men are going to be like the average, which is a good thing in my opinion.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> Coming from you it's a compliment. I preferred your Christmas avatar. But you have advance over the Halloween period. Like stores.


What's a compliment?

I prefer the Christmas one too but it's not even October yet


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> How can you compare a mother to a freaking spider?? It's not only spiders that have a wide abdomen lol. If you are also associating women with snakes, women call men "snakes" all the time. But yes snakes symbolise either the lustful or just the plain toxic and manipulative. You're talking about your own associations which would be an example of Ni i guess.
> 
> Yeah probably affected your dna  Things affect your dna everyday whether you realise it or not.


Epigenetics does not justify changing your type throughout your life when you want. 

Yes, I already had this dream during when I was younger, a period when I lived with my mother. And Freud also explained this dream. It may be a repulsive idea, but be aware that not all mothers are friendly. In French the spider is a feminine word.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> What's a compliment?
> 
> I prefer the Christmas one too but it's not even October yet


The Lenny Face... My little witch.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> Epigenetics does not justify changing your type throughout your life when you want.
> 
> Yes, I already had this dream during when I was younger, a period when I lived with my mother. And Freud also explained this dream. It may be a repulsive idea, but be aware that not all mothers are friendly. In French the spider is a feminine word.


No it doesnt really. That doesn't mean you can score as different MBTI types during your life because you obviously do. You used to be typed as ISTP, now you're full on intuitive. You could argue that you were actually an INTJ all along and mistyped but i dont think thats the case, because people clearly change over time. 

I know not all mothers are friendly. Mine wasn't perfect. I've actually noticed that in france a spider is feminine. Why is that?


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> The Lenny Face... My little witch.


But the lenny face wasn't directed at anyone \o/


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

No, to be exact, I always get INTJ from the beginning. But I chose to ignore because of job stereotypes. After reading biographies of ISTP that I know very well in my interest world, I realized the difference. I was convinced that an ISTP could reason like an INTJ. That it was only a story of preference .... And I know today that the INTJ are also represented in this interest world. Just less frequent. Which is logical given the rarity of this type. The common point remains a tast for action and the physical world. Among the intuitive, the NTJs are known to maintain a contact with the concret world.

For the spider, maybe you don't want to hear? It's an unconscious feminine archetype. Don't look for a sociological reason for this, as it is fashionable today ...


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Archetypes are an inborn aspect of personality too then? I heard of the collective unconscious and the other terms but i always thought it meant something that was based on personal experiences and memory.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying psychology/behavioural therapy is more feminine than psychiatry? Probably. I know guys who studied social sciences but they weren't typically masculine. Not all men are going to be like the average, which is a good thing in my opinion.


That’s what Jung said about them. In reality, he put the cart before the horse. The archetypes he noted and made mention of were simply cultural manifestations of more basic biological processes. Basically, he saw a modern house and said that modern houses first existed and bricks and 2x4s followed.

From most to least feminine: psychoanalysis psychology, behavioral therapy psychology, psychiatry. From least to most direct.

Freud was known for his hypothesis (note, hypothesis, not theory) that behaviors and personalities are the face-value result of sexuality. The other guys first post where he mentioned spiders was him consciously making string after string of sexual innuendos. The spider is known for laying eggs as well as making webs, which catch, or receive, things, being a representation of a female body part that does the same, while the poison is associated with ending the lives of men by cause of the individuality of the male ceasing upon entering a relationship. Basically, the other guy is consciously talking about deviant sex nonstop.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> No, to be exact, I always get INTJ from the beginning. But I chose to ignore because of job stereotypes. After reading biographies of ISTP that I know very well in my interest world, I realized the difference. I was convinced that an ISTP could reason like an INTJ. That it was only a story of preference .... And I know today that the INTJ are also represented in this interest world. Just less frequent. Which is logical given the rarity of this type. The common point remains a tast for action and the physical world. Among the intuitive, the NTJs are known to maintain a contact with the concret world.
> 
> For the spider, maybe you don't want to hear? It's an unconscious feminine archetype. Don't look for a sociological reason for this, as it is fashionable today ...


Well you’re a left ring social progress alpha or gamma in Socionics, so I’ll give you that.


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Bad Bunny said:


> I think there's a reason most people have an innate fear of spiders


So you changed the Elf pic after all huh?


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Felipe said:


> So you changed the Elf pic after all huh?


Yes I was very serious  probably won't make much of a difference though. A lot of creeps were making a big deal out of my fairy avy idk why.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> No, to be exact, I always get INTJ from the beginning. But I chose to ignore because of job stereotypes. After reading biographies of ISTP that I know very well in my interest world, I realized the difference. I was convinced that an ISTP could reason like an INTJ. That it was only a story of preference .... And I know today that the INTJ are also represented in this interest world. Just less frequent. Which is logical given the rarity of this type. The common point remains a tast for action and the physical world. Among the intuitive, the NTJs are known to maintain a contact with the concret world.
> 
> For the spider, maybe you don't want to hear? It's an unconscious feminine archetype. Don't look for a sociological reason for this, as it is fashionable today ...


Sounds like you don't know if your preference is intuition or sensing :thinking2: an INTJ who likes the concrete and physical (Se)? 

This might suprised you but I'm an adult.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> That’s what Jung said about them. In reality, he put the cart before the horse. The archetypes he noted and made mention of were simply cultural manifestations of more basic biological processes. Basically, he saw a modern house and said that modern houses first existed and bricks and 2x4s followed.
> 
> From most to least feminine: psychoanalysis psychology, behavioral therapy psychology, psychiatry. From least to most direct.
> 
> Freud was known for his hypothesis (note, hypothesis, not theory) that behaviors and personalities are the face-value result of sexuality. The other guys first post where he mentioned spiders was him consciously making string after string of sexual innuendos. The spider is known for laying eggs as well as making webs, which catch, or receive, things, being a representation of a female body part that does the same, while the poison is associated with ending the lives of men by cause of the individuality of the male ceasing upon entering a relationship. Basically, the other guy is consciously talking about deviant sex nonstop.


Wait I don't understand your metaphor, which came first the cultural manifestations or biology? I'm guessing the former even though it doesn't make sense.

How is psychoanalysis more feminine when freuds hypothesis and jungs theory are both psychoanalysis? I think behavioral therapy is most feminine because it's the most interpersonal. Psychiatry is most practical ofc.

Oh yeah I've heard of the electra complex. Hence why I said slightly misogynistic lol. I didn't realise the spider thing was about freuds theory. Ending individuality, that is ridiculous. Yes I noticed he was talking about sexual things but not with the spider dream..


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

I've had an innate and nonsensical fear of spiders all my life.
Something about them just irks me the wrong way. Like they're monsters who were here before us and they want to take back the planet and when I crush them or catch them I always have the fear that they will avenge it and more will come.

That said, it's not really the spiders I fear. Something about them is attached in my mind and I can't make it go away.
It's totally irrational and hysterical. I've made progress in fighting it but still, a picture of a large one, especially his eyes can make me anxious in a minute.

I've heard that they symbolize femininity and motherhood and there is a movie about this called _'Enemy'_. Very good movie, worth to check out.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Sounds like you don't know if your preference is intuition or sensing :thinking2: an INTJ who likes the concrete and physical (Se)?



My field is particularly wide, and includes many trades, many specialties. Including theoretical and practical components. But its particularity is to converge towards the concrete application, and quite often with a more or less strong interaction with the environment.

I feel your troll attempt for (Se) and INTJ .... But the reality is that you just ignore the factual MBTI data. For example, according to the MBTI, INTJs like ISTPs are attracted to engineering ... These are two types that have a lot in common. The difference is the way to solve a problem.

Which includes, either quickly or later physically contact with reality. Then there are my personal observations that confirm the commitment of the INTJ with the concrete. I met an INTJ and a ENTJ during my skydiving formation. And also at combat sports. Yest the rest of the time, they are abstract and conceptual in concret field. This is the difference with the ISTP. It works in the opposite direction. Concrete, conceptual and abstract.

Still according to statistics, confusion can occur. Especially if the definitions of the INTJ are too abstraction-oriented. And conversely for the ISTP.

At a strictly theoretical level, Jung definitely confirms there is the _abstract sensation_ and the _concrete intution._ but also the _abstract intuition_


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> That’s what Jung said about them. In reality, he put the cart before the horse. The archetypes he noted and made mention of were simply cultural manifestations of more basic biological processes. Basically, he saw a modern house and said that modern houses first existed and bricks and 2x4s followed.


This is called a deductive process. And it's exactly the opposite. The modern house justifies the existence of pre-existing bricks.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> .
> 
> Oh yeah I've heard of the electra complex. Hence why I said slightly misogynistic lol.


This is exactly the same reasoning as Odype and you still see an attack on women ... Women can not be cited in a negative way for you... Feminism wreaks havoc.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Wait I don't understand your metaphor, which came first the cultural manifestations or biology? I'm guessing the former even though it doesn't make sense.
> 
> How is psychoanalysis more feminine when freuds hypothesis and jungs theory are both psychoanalysis? I think behavioral therapy is most feminine because it's the most interpersonal. Psychiatry is most practical ofc.
> 
> Oh yeah I've heard of the electra complex. Hence why I said slightly misogynistic lol. I didn't realise the spider thing was about freuds theory. Ending individuality, that is ridiculous. Yes I noticed he was talking about sexual things but not with the spider dream..


Biology came first.

Behavioral therapy tells the person what practical actions to take.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> This is called a deductive process. And it's exactly the opposite. The modern house justifies the existence of pre-existing bricks.


That’s nice.


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Casus Belli said:


> Cacaia said:
> 
> 
> > I have a family member who keeps bothering me about joining her to protest wildlife extinction because of climate change, etc.
> ...


Lol.But, however, this does not answer who is using Fe, who Fi, if both are using Fe, if both are using Fi.....


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Are you saying psychology/behavioural therapy is more feminine than psychiatry? Probably. I know guys who studied social sciences but they weren't typically masculine. Not all men are going to be like the average said:


> Mmmm.stereotypical masculinity and femininity are, IMO, a thing of the past. It does not serve us any longer to say something sound masculine or feminine. things just are what they are: non binary....


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Red Panda said:


> Cacaia said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, people, so I have a question for you.... I have a family member who keeps bothering me about joining her to protest wildlife extinction because of climate change, etc.
> ...


🤯 No wonder I'm so confused about it all.I might truly have to stick to one system, lest I drive myself crazy!

I always thought she used Fi because she always puts herself first, and then she wants people to join her, and if they don't, they're evil.
Anyway, she's gone incognito after the text I shared with you all, but I still managed to send her pictures of an artists' collective that is making art to raise awareness of climate change, and donating the proceeds to organizations that will take action on behalf of the animals and places impacted. I want to show her that there are many ways people are pitching in.... through their own strengths. And thusly they are not evil by not joining her on a climate change strike...they are just doing as much for the environment as she claims to be doing. Actually, they may be doing More, because they are putting the money they make out of this into action, rather than a dead end demonstration that won't impact the safety of animals per se...


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Cacaia said:


> Mmmm.stereotypical masculinity and femininity are, IMO, a thing of the past. It does not serve us any longer to say something sound masculine or feminine. things just are what they are: non binary....


They’re not non-binary.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Cacaia said:


> &#55358;&#56623; No wonder I'm so confused about it all.I might truly have to stick to one system, lest I drive myself crazy!
> 
> I always thought she used Fi because she always puts herself first, and then she wants people to join her, and if they don't, they're evil.
> Anyway, she's gone incognito after the text I shared with you all, but I still managed to send her pictures of an artists' collective that is making art to raise awareness of climate change, and donating the proceeds to organizations that will take action on behalf of the animals and places impacted. I want to show her that there are many ways people are pitching in.... through their own strengths. And thusly they are not evil by not joining her on a climate change strike...they are just doing as much for the environment as she claims to be doing. Actually, they may be doing More, because they are putting the money they make out of this into action, rather than a dead end demonstration that won't impact the safety of animals per se...


yea those sound exactly like what I said, FI by Jung, FJ by MBTI
the behavioral traits are mixed in the modern function theories because people don't realise that Jung's introversion/extraversion attitudes are not the same as the way Myers chose to define and assign them to types, and many times they're even opposite


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Biology came first.
> 
> Behavioral therapy tells the person what practical actions to take.


Of course. 
Behaviorial therapists are mostly women. It requires talking about the persons feelings which I can't imagine a man doing so often.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> This is exactly the same reasoning as Odype and you still see an attack on women ... Women can not be cited in a negative way for you... Feminism wreaks havoc.


I'm thinking more about the daddy issues theory. I'm not going to explain why because you're already getting judgemental about my opinions.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Cacaia said:


> Mmmm.stereotypical masculinity and femininity are, IMO, a thing of the past. It does not serve us any longer to say something sound masculine or feminine. things just are what they are: non binary....


Men/women and girls/boys are very different in terms of how they mature, plus their sexuality and communication.

If you've ever dated your opposite sex you'll find this out.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Of course.
> Behaviorial therapists are mostly women. It requires talking about the persons feelings which I can't imagine a man doing so often.


Sounds more like a psychoanalyst, tbh.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> I'm thinking more about the daddy issues theory. I'm not going to explain why because you're already getting judgemental about my opinions.


I don't think you have a constructive opinion. I think it was a feminist atavistic reflex: _refuse the old patriarchal world and its male representatives._


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> I don't think you have a constructive opinion. I think it was a feminist atavistic reflex: _refuse the old patriarchal world and its male representatives._


Does that happen before or after the scissoring?


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

DavidGH said:


> They’re not non-binary.


No. They're not. But they SHOULD be. To make a society function well. IMO.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Sounds more like a psychoanalyst, tbh.


Yeah maybe I'm thinking of psychotherapists but they do behavioral therapy as well as psychotherapy.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Casus Belli said:


> I don't think you have a constructive opinion. I think it was a feminist atavistic reflex: _refuse the old patriarchal world and its male representatives._


Wtf are you talking about? You're clearly just assuming my beliefs.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Cacaia said:


> No. They're not. But they SHOULD be. To make a society function well. IMO.


“well”?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Yeah maybe I'm thinking of psychotherapists but they do behavioral therapy as well as psychotherapy.





> By nature, behavioural therapies are empirical (data-driven), contextual (focused on the environment and context), functional (interested in the effect or consequence a behaviour ultimately has), probabilistic (viewing behaviour as statistically predictable), monistic (rejecting mind–body dualism and treating the person as a unit), and relational (analysing bidirectional interactions).[107]
> 
> Behavioural therapy develops, adds and provides behavioural intervention strategies and programs for clients, and training to people who care to facilitate successful lives in the communities.


So basically people telling the psychologist factual problems and getting practical and tested directions back. Versus psychoanalysis, which basically listens and then tells you, well, nonsense, imo.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Casus Belli said:


> But a lot of current and extremely serious problems accumulate simply because women vote.



Lol. Even though I'm sceptical of today's movements I have to laugh at that.

And all of this behavioural science is feminine bullsht.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> You are not so skeptical enough then ... What I write, it's that before, the male mentality was the problem. Today is the female mentality. It's something that people have a lot of trouble understanding. Because they often reason in a binary way and because most of them need to experience their beliefs to be aware of their mistake.
> 
> The second thing is that women are very manipulable by certain types of men. They are the smart predators. Do not forget that this men are managed to make women dependent on cigarettes in the name of feminism ... Only to double the turnover. It's sad of stupidity. But still today, that works...
> 
> ...


You live in a liberal area or something?


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> So basically people telling the psychologist factual problems and getting practical and tested directions back. Versus psychoanalysis, which basically listens and then tells you, well, nonsense, imo.


No it's not nonsense from my experience. They've always leaned towards the practical side like giving "homework" tasks or writing things down. Women aren't completely unable to do practical things like that smh.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Oh great this is an incel thread now - _-


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> No it's not nonsense from my experience. They've always leaned towards the practical side like giving "homework" tasks or writing things down. Women aren't completely unable to do practical things like that smh.


You’re talking about a person. I’m talking about a field.


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## Cacaia (Feb 5, 2018)

Casus Belli said:


> Women's or LGBT point of view. So mainly (F). An androgynous society, this gives the present Europe, but especially of its future. That's terrible to say. But a lot of current and extremely serious problems accumulate simply because women vote. _Yesterday the war of nations, tomorrow the civil war._ The global is feminine, by definition.
> 
> Nature does not like confusion ...


Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is only one truth, but you are definitely welcome to have your opinion. Though it is WRONG.
Women voting has helped to stabilize the opinion of the white male. In case you have not noticed, the world does not consist of white males only. Whatis a true democracy but the VOICE OF ALL? Frankly, this old ass society you speak of is dead, and Trump and his idiocies are the last gasp of a society that needs to transcend. I'm outta here, peace out.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Cacaia said:


> Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is only one truth, but you are definitely welcome to have your opinion. Though it is WRONG.
> Women voting has helped to stabilize the opinion of the white male. In case you have not noticed, the world does not consist of white males only. Whatis a true democracy but the VOICE OF ALL? Frankly, this old ass society you speak of is dead, and Trump and his idiocies are the last gasp of a society that needs to transcend. I'm outta here, peace out.


That’s all speech related. Trump isn’t a conservative, by the way.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> You’re talking about a person. I’m talking about a field.


Oh. Well a few people actually. Im staying skeptical though as I don't know about the psychology fields personally.

I only know about the science fields where biology attracts women mostly. It is less practical and considered a "squishy" science even though its not.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Oh. Well a few people actually. Im staying skeptical though as I don't know about the psychology fields personally.
> 
> I only know about the science fields where biology attracts women mostly.


A psychologist can specializes in one or several schools of thought.

Behavioral therapy: aligning behaviors
Psychoanalysis: rationalization of emotions

Also, feminine and masculine are terms based upon females and males, but they aren’t interchangeable terms. If I say that something is feminine, that doesn’t mean that I am calling the something a female.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> A psychologist can specializes in one or several schools of thought.
> 
> Behavioral therapy: aligning behaviors
> Psychoanalysis: rationalization of emotions
> ...


The psychotherapists don't specialise in one area here. But maybe you're talking about the field of study not work?

Fair enough. Shouldn't you classify things as feminine /masculine based on females/males being involved by majority or on average? Like if more men work in x field its typically masculine.


----------



## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> The psychotherapists don't specialise in one area here. But maybe you're talking about the field of study not work?
> 
> Fair enough. Shouldn't you classify things as feminine /masculine based on females/males being involved by majority or on average? Like if more men work in x field its typically masculine.


Yes, which is why I didn’t use the term psychotherapist.

No. For one, unless you were well-versed, you could wind up with backwards dichotomies due to happening to live in a backwards environment. Mainly, though, if you did that, you wouldn’t be able to maintain consistent traits due to conflating to separate concepts.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Rather social democrat. My ancient girlfriend was complaining about feelings of insecurity and anti-white insults. Yet a nice nurse ISFJ. We are debating some absurd things like whether or not our borders are sacred or not. Brazil, or South Africa is our future. But probably the balkans before...



What are they going to do? Punch you in the face?

No one is debating that. And by no one, I mean that the portion of the population that debates such things are a minority who have subdivided into a right and a left, while both actually being far left.


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

DavidGH said:


> What are they going to do? Punch you in the face?
> 
> No one is debating that. And by no one, I mean that the portion of the population that debates such things are a minority who have subdivided into a right and a left, while both actually being far left.


Haha, I like.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Haha, I like.


That a new concept for you or something? Most people outside the metro know the metro is full of rats.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

41 pages, MAMMA MIA


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Aluminum Frost said:


> 41 pages, MAMMA MIA


You’re famous!


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Yes, which is why I didn’t use the term psychotherapist.
> 
> No. For one, unless you were well-versed, you could wind up with backwards dichotomies due to happening to live in a backwards environment. Mainly, though, if you did that, you wouldn’t be able to maintain consistent traits due to conflating to separate concepts.


What kind of environment would be backwards?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> What kind of environment would be backwards?


Well, if you had an area with 100% female lumberjacks or something.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Well, if you had an area with 100% female lumberjacks or something.


Do situations like that even exist? Wouldnt it be obvious it's backwards?


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> Do situations like that even exist? Wouldnt it be obvious it's backwards?


Not in isolation.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

On a more serious note.

Fi is your sense of self.
People without or having low trust of Fi have trouble when it comes to them, what they like, who they are and such things...

Ni is your determination of the future. What do you want? What do you need?
Your willpower determines what happens next, without letting anyone in. In a sense, you shut out the world, that's why Ni and Se are opposite of each other.
Ni is something you don't share with anyone, as opposed to Ne.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> Well, if you had an area with 100% female lumberjacks or something.





> Not in isolation.


I dont think any environment like that exists xD Where i grew up a lot of women did farming with their husband which is perhaps a little out the ordinary. It wasnt 100% backwards though.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> I dont think any environment like that exists xD Where i grew up a lot of women did farming with their husband which is perhaps a little out the ordinary. It wasnt 100% backwards though.


It was an exaggeration. For practical example, you have largely self-contained places like New York City, which has more than double the population percentage of LGBT individuals compared to the national average. Then you have districts in New York City, again relatively self-contained, with twice the population percentage of LGBT individuals compared to the average for New York City.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

DavidGH said:


> It was an exaggeration. For practical example, you have largely self-contained places like New York City, which has more than double the population percentage of LGBT individuals compared to the national average. Then you have districts in New York City, again relatively self-contained, with twice the population percentage of LGBT individuals compared to the average for New York City.


My city has a lot of LGBT people too. I had no idea it was common in NY but i'm not suprised as the environment is similar (my bf said it was). I don't get how it's more common in a "self contained" or isolated area, but I'm guessing it's simply more easy to deviate from social norms.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Bad Bunny said:


> My city has a lot of LGBT people too. I had no idea it was common in NY but i'm not suprised as the environment is similar (my bf said it was). I don't get how it's more common in a "self contained" or isolated area, but I'm guessing it's simply more easy to deviate from social norms.


Lack of interaction with others outside of the group. Societal norms are for the population being referred to, otherwise it’s a different norm. 

For example, let’s say that the population percentage for the country in the previous example is 3%. This includes the higher population percentage of major metropolitan areas. Thus, the rest of the country may be around 1% with the major metropolitan areas excluded. So the societal norm for someone who lives in a certain district of New York City may think that upwards of 15% is normal, if the individual has no reason to travel outside the district. 

This is why during the previous presidential election cycle, there was much shock present in the major media outlets. Although the major media outlets make it seem like LGBT sorts of topics are a major topic currently, when in reality basically no one cares about those topics.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> Your intuition is doing flea jumps my little witch... For me it's simple. Now, Scotland is playing the card of seduction to join Europe after the brexit. Because fundamentally, European regionalism is part of a global political agenda. So the LGBT flag floats in front of the Scottish parliament. "Being LGBT" means, _we are ready to join the Tower of Babel _(european parliament architecture) As a result, Scotland is gaining a favorable reputation with the LGBT community in Britain.


Why would it matter?


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## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Casus Belli said:


> But a lot of current and extremely serious problems accumulate simply because women vote.


Sometimes I go to the debate forum to piss off feminists when they're out of line but bro, this is a bit too far, you're basically saying women shouldn't vote? I personally think everyone votes bad these days, they shouldn't even be stuck with too main parties (democrats and republicans).


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## Casus Belli (Aug 26, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Sometimes I go to the debate forum to piss off feminists when they're out of line but bro, this is a bit too far, you're basically saying women shouldn't vote? I personally think everyone votes bad these days, they shouldn't even be stuck with too main parties (democrats and republicans).


I agree with you. Just women are more numerous than men. And they are more often (F) than (T). So mathematically, the country is built on a more feminine mentality. If only men vote, this can also be a problem. Therefore, the (F) must experience excess femininity in politics and ideology. Unfortunately, this may be a lesson as painful as it was at the beginning of the last century.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Casus Belli said:


> This leads to the weakening of nations and allows the progressive construction of a federal Europe on the American model. Thus regionalism and its languages are supported to maintain a gap, and create a fragmentation of nations. So far why not ... But... Every year, a prize, the _Charlemagne Prize_ is awarded to politicians who have worked for the construction of Europe. Clinton, Blair, Macron etc ... And the man who invented this award is named Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi. He is the author of a book in 1925: _Praktischer Idealismus_
> 
> This book, written the same year that _Mein Kampf_ explains on which ideological model must be built the Europe of tomorrow. Thus, we can read, that the European of the future will be a mixed race between African and European on the model of the ancient Egyptian. And many other very interesting things that are an echoes with our present. According to him, each race has its qualities and faults, before to describe them with precision. Basically this book is a kind of Mein Kampf for the globalists. Only there will be an elite class, an a lower class. Thus the elite is not meant to mix with Africans ... (curiously)


Yeah, but isn’t that basically from the same mindset of “there’s nothing inherently wrong with LGTB”? Let’s say, for instance, that having genetic mutations in the form of “genome deletion” is found to positively correlate with probability to be LGTB. That means that LGTB negatively correlates to reproduction. Let’s also say that it negatively correlates to reproduce by any means. So, basically, they’re a species that is already extinct. And all you gotta do to not be extinct is not be LGTB.

Think of it like walking into a bar. You realize it’s a gay bar. You gonna stay? Or be like, woah better get the hell up outta here? Because you’re talking about things that the majority of the population isn’t even aware exists. That means you’re actually exposing yourself to it by continuing to engage in whatever is making you aware of it. If I see people talking about LGTB stuff on TV, I change the channel.


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## DavidGH (Aug 10, 2019)

Felipe said:


> Sometimes I go to the debate forum to piss off feminists when they're out of line but bro, this is a bit too far, you're basically saying women shouldn't vote? I personally think everyone votes bad these days, they shouldn't even be stuck with too main parties (democrats and republicans).



Most conservatives don’t vote. Those that do vote divide themselves into “liberals and conservatives.”


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

LePapillonDesEtoiles said:


> These are the best descriptions of Fi and Ni
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think vultology has been an interesting website, but the facial expressions have not always seemed consistent with reality. I think what he writes about Fi is his worst description by far. Which adds to my opinion that Fi is little understood by non-Fi users. 

His description makes Fi sound as if it is just mood swings. He compares Fi to the behavior of mythical creatures (fairies) and even goes so far as to show Fi faces who are in a bad fairy mood or a good fairy mood.... like Tinkerbell his idea of Fi is that an Fi user cannot hold more than one emotion at a time? It’s insulting actually, but I know he does this because of a really poor understanding... and I liked his other stuff... but his definition of Fi is just wrong. Just because he doesn’t understand Fi does not mean that Fi isn’t a conscious brain activity for the person with Fi. I think there must be few people with Fi capable of explaining it... maybe because it is so strong and it is hard to imagine that people don’t have it. At least that was true for me hntil I joined PerC... it was hard to imagine humans who didn’t experience Fi and I didn’t realize how deeply they didn’t experience it and how deeply I experience it in comparison. There was a lot that is a part of Fi that I assumed was a universal experience.


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## LePapillonDesEtoiles (Sep 5, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> I think vultology has been an interesting website, but the facial expressions have not always seemed consistent with reality. I think what he writes about Fi is his worst description by far. Which adds to my opinion that Fi is little understood by non-Fi users.
> 
> His description makes Fi sound as if it is just mood swings. He compares Fi to the behavior of mythical creatures (fairies) and even goes so far as to show Fi faces who are in a bad fairy mood or a good fairy mood.... like Tinkerbell his idea of Fi is that an Fi user cannot hold more than one emotion at a time? It’s insulting actually, but I know he does this because of a really poor understanding... and I liked his other stuff... but his definition of Fi is just wrong. Just because he doesn’t understand Fi does not mean that Fi isn’t a conscious brain activity for the person with Fi. I think there must be few people with Fi capable of explaining it... maybe because it is so strong and it is hard to imagine that people don’t have it. At least that was true for me hntil I joined PerC... it was hard to imagine humans who didn’t experience Fi and I didn’t realize how deeply they didn’t experience it and how deeply I experience it in comparison. There was a lot that is a part of Fi that I assumed was a universal experience


.

In Ti-Vultology he also compared "Ti" to Zen Buddhism.

I am Fi-dom and I identified a lot with the description.


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## LePapillonDesEtoiles (Sep 5, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> I think vultology has been an interesting website, but the facial expressions have not always seemed consistent with reality. I think what he writes about Fi is his worst description by far. Which adds to my opinion that Fi is little understood by non-Fi users.
> 
> His description makes Fi sound as if it is just mood swings. He compares Fi to the behavior of mythical creatures (fairies) and even goes so far as to show Fi faces who are in a bad fairy mood or a good fairy mood.... like Tinkerbell his idea of Fi is that an Fi user cannot hold more than one emotion at a time? It’s insulting actually, but I know he does this because of a really poor understanding... and I liked his other stuff... but his definition of Fi is just wrong. Just because he doesn’t understand Fi does not mean that Fi isn’t a conscious brain activity for the person with Fi. I think there must be few people with Fi capable of explaining it... maybe because it is so strong and it is hard to imagine that people don’t have it. At least that was true for me hntil I joined PerC... it was hard to imagine humans who didn’t experience Fi and I didn’t realize how deeply they didn’t experience it and how deeply I experience it in comparison. There was a lot that is a part of Fi that I assumed was a universal experience.


I see Fi as a distance from the external world, to idealize a world internally. (That is why they are introverted). This starts in childhood. Children like this are very sensitive, have trouble trusting strangers, and are uncomfortable with some clothing fabrics.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

LePapillonDesEtoiles said:


> I see Fi as a distance from the external world, to idealize a world internally. (That is why they are introverted). This starts in childhood. Children like this are very sensitive, have trouble trusting strangers, and are uncomfortable with some clothing fabrics.


Are you talking about HSP? I test positive as HSP myself and my INTP daughter has severe sensory processing disorder and also HSP

You agreed with vultology’s crazy “seely” stuff? 

There is so much to explain about Fi that I think only neuroscience has made me happy about. My husband is INFP, My sister is INFP and I am ENFP. It really is only through the neuroscience and then asking Fe and Ti lots of questions that I feel more equipped to explain to others what Fi does. But even then I need more work with Se plus Fi so that I don’t just describe Fi in the context of the presence of Ne.


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## LePapillonDesEtoiles (Sep 5, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> Are you talking about HSP? I test positive as HSP myself and my INTP daughter has severe sensory processing disorder and also HSP
> 
> You agreed with vultology’s crazy “seely” stuff?
> 
> There is so much to explain about Fi that I think only neuroscience has made me happy about. My husband is INFP, My sister is INFP and I am ENFP. It really is only through the neuroscience and then asking Fe and Ti lots of questions that I feel more equipped to explain to others what Fi does. But even then I need more work with Se plus Fi so that I don’t just describe Fi in the context of the presence of Ne.


But ENFP has no Fi. They have Fe aux. Read this:


__
https://equinoctum.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F632423040256458752


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

All the functions need to be defined better until everyone understands them the way they need to understand them: so they don't really need them anymore.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

@LePapillonDesEtoiles 
Whatever you’re reading is wrong. ENFPs have Fi aux and Te tert. You know what? When people get too far away from standard MBTI then I wonder why they are even using the same 4 letters. The 4 letters are from official MBTI and ENFPs have extroverted intuition, introverted feeling. Whatever this thing is your reading has no business trying to use the term ENFP and doesn’t have any correlation to MBTI. 

For Pete’s sake... as if I didn’t know my internal world...


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## LePapillonDesEtoiles (Sep 5, 2020)

Llyralen said:


> @LePapillonDesEtoiles
> Whatever you’re reading is wrong. ENFPs have Fi aux and Te tert. You know what? When people get too far away from standard MBTI then I wonder why they are even using the same 4 letters. The 4 letters are from official MBTI and ENFPs have extroverted intuition, introverted feeling. Whatever this thing is your reading has no business trying to use the term ENFP and doesn’t have any correlation to MBTI.
> 
> For Pete’s sake... as if I didn’t know my internal world...


you don't understand when other people talk about Fi, because you don't have Fi.

the popular mbti says that ENFP and ESFP have Fi, but that is not true.


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## 556155 (Apr 29, 2020)

-


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

LePapillonDesEtoiles said:


> you don't understand when other people talk about Fi, because you don't have Fi.
> 
> the popular mbti says that ENFP and ESFP have Fi, but that is not true.



You’re using the words “understand when other people talk about Fi” about a description written by an INTP? . 

Official MBTI came up with the 4 letters. If you are not using official MBTI then in my opinion you are talking about something completely different that maybe shouldn’t even categorize people with the same 4 letters. 

I agree with some descriptions of Fi out there... just not the ones you like I guess....and honestly I think I describe Fi better myself than anyone without it could. 

Just because I don’t like a website completely that you’ve bought into doesn’t mean I don’t experience Fi. And you can’t decide that for me either. 

Or are you just a troll? Oh dang it... probably...


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Introverted Feeling (Fi) vs. Ti, Ni, & Fe | Personality Junkie


By Dr. A.J. Drenth Introverted Feeling (Fi) is among the least understood of the eight personality functions. It serves as the dominant function for the…




personalityjunkie.com


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Introverted Feeling (Fi) vs. Ti, Ni, & Fe | Personality Junkie
> 
> 
> By Dr. A.J. Drenth Introverted Feeling (Fi) is among the least understood of the eight personality functions. It serves as the dominant function for the…
> ...


I agree with that one. 
I also agree that Fi is poorly understood by others but well understood by those who have it. Figuring out how to convey what it’s about is difficult as with all introverted functions... plus it’s personal.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I agree with that one.
> I also agree that Fi is poorly understood by others but well understood by those who have it. Figuring out how to convey what it’s about is difficult as with all introverted functions... plus it’s personal.


Having a mostly subconscious dominant function makes me keenly aware of poorly understood functions, if equally clueless how to describe them as anyone else.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Having a mostly subconscious dominant function makes me keenly aware of poorly understood functions, if equally clueless how to describe them as anyone else.


I tried to explain Fi at the beginning of this thread when it was started I believe, When Ts day the framework doesn’t have to do with emotions, but rather how we like to be treated ourselves... there is truth in that kind of. I don’t think you can develop your Fi without strong emotions. It’s my own experience of my strong emotions that teach me how to treat others. Whenever I have an experience that makes me feel more than usual then I process it and learn how better to treat others who might be in that same position and that is how it was built. I do not know if SFPs would identify with that... except that it also seems like it. Fi has its own feeling memory system we’ve found out as for the last 3 years I compared my Fi to INFJ’s Fe. 

Anyway, it makes it easy to jump into hypothetical situations of what should be done or not done, what’s the moral thing to do, etc. I usually think NTPs are just as good at hypotheticals but using Ti. 

Hey question for you... maybe you saw me ask this before. I haven’t asked any ENTPs yet. 

If you had a choice to (A) keep all of your memories and current skills but not be able to make new ones Or (B) Not remember anything from before But be able to make new memories, what would you choose and why?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Llyralen said:


> I tried to explain Fi at the beginning of this thread when it was started I believe, When Ts day the framework doesn’t have to do with emotions, but rather how we like to be treated ourselves... there is truth in that kind of. I don’t think you can develop your Fi without strong emotions. It’s my own experience of my strong emotions that teach me how to treat others. Whenever I have an experience that makes me feel more than usual then I process it and learn how better to treat others who might be in that same position and that is how it was built. I do not know if SFPs would identify with that... except that it also seems like it. Fi has its own feeling memory system we’ve found out as for the last 3 years I compared my Fi to INFJ’s Fe.
> 
> Anyway, it makes it easy to jump into hypothetical situations of what should be done or not done, what’s the moral thing to do, etc. I usually think NTPs are just as good at hypotheticals but using Ti.
> 
> ...


I hate both choices. My sense of self is (obviously) defined by both. Choosing either of them would be like choosing to lose a limb, or choosing to be paralyzed.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I hate both choices. My sense of self is (obviously) defined by both. Choosing either of them would be like choosing to lose a limb, or choosing to be paralyzed.


I can see where it’s a hard choice, especially with your obviously well developed Fe. I took a lot of time coming up with my answer myself. You heard the Ti response of my daughter “It would depend on how old you are.” . It helped me to understand how her Ti works.


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