# Passion & Counterpassion



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Inguz said:


> What is your suggestion?


Something that allows for it to be applied on the other types. I haven't thought too much about it, but I think the problem lies in how it's described as being related to our passion. If we just look at how a CP 5 is described in the OP for example, as I said before, how can we tell the difference from a sexual 5 that thinks sharing is caring? There is a fundamental flaw with the theory that it's somehow so specifically pinned down to 6 so it doesn't work to explain variation within other types because it just becomes... weird. I'm for example of the idea that a CP 5 would not be one of those people who would share everything, but be an extreme collective hoarder and purposefully withhold information and so on, but a phobic type would be more likely to try to avoid situations that instill anxiety and thus also make them engage with avarice. 

Based on the people in the 5 forum, this makes more sense to me because there's definitely a range with how avaricious individuals are and I feel almost like I'm one of the more extreme types in some ways, and I'm aggressive about it, too. So if counter-phobic (as opposed to counter-passion also) is to engage your anxiety, then CP 5 is a person who tries to deal with avarice by engaging it more, pretending it'll go away if you just engage enough. A phobic 5 would try to avoid engaging with avarice all together. 

So more of a direct translation of phobic and counter-phobic than strictly related to passion. I haven't thought of how it would translate to other types, but mostly with regards with my own so far. At least I feel it becomes more applicable that way with regards to 5. There are other issues to iron out regarding that, but concerning practicality, it seems like a better solution.


----------



## SharkT00th (Sep 5, 2012)

Excellent post!


kaleidoscope said:


> Four: Self-sufficiency:
> The passion of Fours is envy. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of contentment. At that time, Fours want to appear self-sufficient. They claim to be satisfied with who they are and what they have. What others have that they lack is hence useless, devoid of interest and they are happy to do without. In French literature, there is a famous fable, by Jean de La Fontaine, that describes the counterpassion of the Four and reveals a transparent haughtiness and the persistence of envy.
> 
> The Fox and the Grapes
> ...


Most commonly this is associated with the self pres 4. 




kaleidoscope said:


> Five: Extravagance:
> The passion of Fives is avarice. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of unselfishness. Then Fives want to appear generous. They will give an enormous amount of information about their subject of interest, holding mini-conferences about almost any situation. Avarice is there, however, because they manage to give this information to people who do not desire it and, thus, inevitably will not understand it or use it. Sometimes Fives unconsciously give subtly incomplete or veiled answers.



Sounds like a Sexual type 5. 




kaleidoscope said:


> Seven: Austerity:
> The passion of Sevens is gluttony. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of sobriety or temperance. Sevens may then practice excessive self-control. They want to appear to be serious. They don't allow themselves any joy or rest. They limit their mental capacities, by either underusing them or focalizing them too much. They are proud of this seriousness that gives them a sort of masochistic happiness. The passion of gluttony appears as an excess of control. More is better: the battle cry of Sevens is still present, only now its focus has changed.



Social type 7's, they want to be socially acceptable so they will actually cut down on gluttony to appear more acceptable. Typically have a heavy 1 line.

*NOTE:* None of these behaviors will bring you closer to integration, it is a coping mechanism. The only path towards integration is realizing that the ego is false and essence is real.


----------



## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

SharkT00th said:


> Most commonly this is associated with the self pres 4.


Actually, Naranjo describes counter-envy 4 as the sexual subtype, also "more 8 than an 8". I understand you referred to the OP, though.



SharkT00th said:


> *NOTE:* None of these behaviors will bring you closer to integration, it is a coping mechanism. The only path towards integration is realizing that the ego is false and essence is real.


True.


----------



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

I'd like to hear more opinions about this idea of counter-passion. Was about to start my own thread for it, and then remembered there was already one here. Especially those who _already _identify with being counter-passion. What's it mean for you? (I've heard from a couple of you already.)


I don't readily relate to the counter-passion at 9. If anything, it's that I use bursts of activity and self-knowledge to further feed my passion; knowing more about myself but then finding that's only reason to believe I'm happy by doing very little (which has been my experience... so far anyway).




> Seven: Austerity:
> The passion of Sevens is gluttony. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of sobriety or temperance. Sevens may then practice excessive self-control. They want to appear to be serious. They don't allow themselves any joy or rest.


 This actually sounds like a 7 consciously moving towards 1, and it doesn't sound very healthy.




> Eight: Wariness:
> The passion of Eights is excess and the counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of simplicity. In which case, Eights want to appear careful, measured and decent. They are reticent, hold back their anger; and may choose an ascetic way of life. However, even in these circumstances, Eights continue to go to extremes. An excess of simplicity is still excess. In Eights, the passion-counterpassion duality resembles Ichazo's term for the Eight's dichotomy, hedonist-puritan.


Now this one gives me pause. I've read Ichazo talk about that 8s are fixated on Laws and Morals (read about it here), and I'm wondering if this is what they're trying to get at with the idea of counter-passion at 8.

Would love to hear if any 8s can relate to this.


----------



## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> One: Renouncement:
> The passion of Ones is anger. The counterpassion of Ones is a caricature of the virtue of patience; in these moments, Ones want to be tolerant, neutral, and objective. They let others get away with errors. They think they are indulgent, magnanimous and understanding of others. Nevertheless, Ones notice errors, which shows that they are still being judgmental. Anger bubbles up inside them even if they are not aware of it. Ones' counterpassion is close to, if not equivalent to, its principal defense mechanism, reaction-formation, and consequently is one of the most thoroughly discussed counterpassions in classic type descriptions.
> 
> Five: Extravagance:
> ...


If you think of counterpassion as the opposite of the passion:

For type 5 it might simply be the opposite of holding onto or miserliness which would simply be *generosity*. In one sense it would be a material thing where you give money and things (your material resources) out more freely in doing the opposite of what your tendency is. It could also be a giving more of one's time and energy as well, but that might not go on for long because a withdrawal and recharge may soon be needed.

For type 7 gluttony is often said to be a gluttony of the mind. If that's taken as a sampling or tasting of life then the counter for that might be a deeper experience of things or a reduced range of pursuits. If 7 has the resources (money, time, etc.) to sample a wide variety of experiences they may go that way, but for most people there are limitations to those resources. Type 7 would then be forced to reduce or narrow their interests to those they have time and resources to pursue. *Practicality *sets limits on pursuits and also ideas that seem interesting but haven't been thought through completely.

I wonder if Helen Palmer's "trapdoor" for type 1 would apply here in some way:
A One lives in a divided house. A critic lives in the upper story, and this critic is largely unaware of the tides of feeling that periodically flood the cellars of the house. If the tide of passion rises sharply, a One is likely to leak off unacceptable feelings by focusing on someone else's wrongdoing, or by getting drunk or drugged enough to put the internal critic to sleep. Binge drinking, episodal rages, or periods of intense sexual activity are ways in which a One can release the pressure that periodically builds from unacknowledged needs.

The image of the divided house also applies to Perfectionists who develop a "trapdoor" relationship between the mental critic and the flood of feelings that get trapped in the basement of the unconscious. Trapdoor Ones are people who develop a double-life solution to the problem of living in a divided house. They develop two distinct temperaments, one for "where I'm known" and one for "far away." They are responsible and well respected where they are known, but become more relaxed and sexy in an environment away from family and friends. The trapdoor solution can be acted out in as innocent a way as going on a vacation to a place where there is anonymity and no responsibility, or it can be acted out in bizarre combinations, such as librarian/prostitute or missionary/thief.
​


----------



## Bluity (Nov 12, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> If you think of counterpassion as the opposite of the passion:
> 
> For type 5 it might simply be the opposite of holding onto or miserliness which would simply be *generosity*. In one sense it would be a material thing where you give money and things (your material resources) out more freely in doing the opposite of what your tendency is. It could also be a giving more of one's time and energy as well, but that might not go on for long because a withdrawal and recharge may soon be needed.


But generosity sounds healthy, as opposed to the counterpassion listed:



> Five: Extravagance:
> _The passion of Fives is avarice. The counterpassion is a caricature of the virtue of unselfishness. Then Fives want to appear generous. They will give an enormous amount of information about their subject of interest, holding mini-conferences about almost any situation. Avarice is there, however, because they manage to give this information to people who do not desire it and, thus, inevitably will not understand it or use it. Sometimes Fives unconsciously give subtly incomplete or veiled answers._


I'm having trouble understanding the concept. If you want to appear generous, but secretly hoard your energy, aren't you afraid people will mistake your generosity as an invitation for more of your time? On the other hand, I can see Fives lecturing others as a way to keep people away; no one wants to hear someone drone for hours on end. The same for veiled answers; if you have a habit of making barely coherent answers, no one will ask you questions.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bluity said:


> But generosity sounds healthy, as opposed to the counterpassion listed:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding the concept. If you want to appear generous, but secretly hoard your energy, aren't you afraid people will mistake your generosity as an invitation for more of your time? On the other hand, I can see Fives lecturing others as a way to keep people away; no one wants to hear someone drone for hours on end. The same for veiled answers; if you have a habit of making barely coherent answers, no one will ask you questions.


I don't think the description in the OP is a good description of counter-passion for the 5 in general. I don't feel it really captures the gist of it. The problem isn't so much that you provide information to those who do not care about it, I'm acutely aware whether the information is considered useful or not to those I provide it to usually. Instead I see the problem being that it does not lead to action. I can for instance inform someone else I'll do this or that or I know this or that, I look up this or that but then I don't do it. Similarly, I can also provide a lot of information to someone else but it doesn't lead anywhere practical. 

I think the description fails to make this distinction between practice/action and informing/information.


----------



## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

kaleidoscope said:


> One: Renouncement:
> The passion of Ones is anger. The counterpassion of Ones is a caricature of the virtue of patience; in these moments, Ones want to be tolerant, neutral, and objective. They let others get away with errors. They think they are indulgent, magnanimous and understanding of others. Nevertheless, Ones notice errors, which shows that they are still being judgmental. Anger bubbles up inside them even if they are not aware of it. Ones' counterpassion is close to, if not equivalent to, its principal defense mechanism, reaction-formation, and consequently is one of the most thoroughly discussed counterpassions in classic type descriptions.


I don't quite understand this. 

1s are characterized by their repression of anger. They don't act out of anger because of their punitive super-ego and the Draconian evaluation it subjects their ego to. They prefer instead to channel anger into other activities; where anger appears to be everything but anger; to feel that the destructive forces inside are perfectly contained and harmless. This is how 1s have earned the title of being "over-controlled" and "overly well-intentioned," etc. 

So, my question is: are you saying that the natural disposition of 1s is to act out of this "counter-passion"...? That all the behavioral traits are more clearly a manifestation of this "counter-passion" rather than their passion?


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> Now this one gives me pause. I've read Ichazo talk about that 8s are fixated on Laws and Morals (read about it here), and I'm wondering if this is what they're trying to get at with the idea of counter-passion at 8.
> 
> Would love to hear if any 8s can relate to this.


I am not sure, but I think Ichazo is referring to black and white thinking? That still relates to a passion for excess because if you exist in a world of dichotomies, each side of the dichotomy exists in excess. 

That is different from an ascetic lifestyle though. I would agree that in and of itself, rejecting excesses can also be done in excess. At one point in my life I couldn't walk for years and felt out of control from the illness and once I could walk again, I went to excess trying to get control: worked out constantly and barely ate to have control over my body, and took copious amounts of psychadelics in an effort to control my mind and emotions, even conducted experiments on myself. My reaction against losing control did include some forms of asceticism if you look at how carefully I controlled my body, I suppose, but I would not say it was counter passion or that my general lifestyle was counter passionate. I was wildly unhealthy and I was out "conquering" men and asserting my power in other ways. I don't know about other 8s but in my case, the idea of counter-excess (Ichazo calls lust "excess") would only begin to apply when I'm more healthy and things stop existing in dochotomies. For instance, back then I was all or nothing with my romantic encounters; either I'm completely obsessed with possessing you or I don't care about you at all, and I could vacillate between those extremes. Now that I'm more healthy I am able to have feelings for a person without being either obsessed or detached. It is more even keel and less dichotomous. But that is healthy. I can't see myself doing anything halfway *ever* but I can't see myself denying myself of what I want or finding the grey areas between my extremes when I'm unhealthy. Hands down, doing things reasonably rather than living in extremes is healthy behavior.

As for counter lust? I did have battles against lust when I was unhealthy - I worshipped lust but also referred to it as "the root of all evil" and became obsessed with the idea of non attachment to the point where I studied eastern religions and wrote papers on the topic. However I always ended up coming back to square one: without desire, I'm not human, I'm not alive. Regardless of intellectual pursuits and ideas, I could never escape lust or reason my way out of it. My actions would not appear that way either, because it would feel like being dishonest with myself about who I am; and I can't and won't pretend to be someone I'm not. So unless I managed to defeat lust within myself, I would not live an ascetic lifestyle.


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Vergil said:


> So, my question is: are you saying that the natural disposition of 1s is to act out of this "counter-passion"...? That all the behavioral traits are more clearly a manifestation of this "counter-passion" rather than their passion?


*I*'m not saying anything, this has been taken from another forum, and is kind of a new perspective to the Enneagram. I don't really believe in it, it was just interesting to share.


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

My signature is an example of type 8 thinking, which is funny because I was mistyped when I wrote it on this website, and I was not even into enneagram when I first used it as a tag line on a website.

"If it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all." 
@_Dying Acedia_, that is what I think Ichazo is referring to but I don't think it's the same thing as counter -lust; I would say it is exactly lust. Starving yourself for control can be done in excess but thats not the same as a core 5 who would reject their body altogether. It is however a fair way to describe a disintegrated 8 who is stuck in unhealthy 5 patterns of withdrawing or attempting to impose a rejection of lust on yourself in an effort to get control.


----------



## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Maybe said:


> My signature is an example of type 8 thinking, which is funny because I was mistyped when I wrote it on this website, and I was not even into enneagram when I first used it as a tag line on a website.
> 
> "If it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all."
> @_Dying Acedia_, that is what I think Ichazo is referring to but I don't think it's the same thing as counter -lust; I would say it is exactly lust. Starving yourself for control can be done in excess but thats not the same as a core 5 who would reject their body altogether. It is however a fair way to describe a disintegrated 8 who is stuck in unhealthy 5 patterns of withdrawing or attempting to impose a rejection of lust on yourself in an effort to get control.


Yeah, to me it seems that whoever wrote this didn't really understand what Ichazo was getting at, because the more I look at it, the more I'm not seeing the connection.

That issue of control though I think is key for the connection between the 8's connection lines. I'd have to think more on it to say something substantial, but I think the need for excess is a type of control for the 8. Not that you're controlling your excess, but creating control through excess.


----------



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> Yeah, to me it seems that whoever wrote this didn't really understand what Ichazo was getting at, because the more I look at it, the more I'm not seeing the connection.
> 
> That issue of control though I think is key for the connection between the 8's connection lines. I'd have to think more on it to say something substantial, but I think the need for excess is a type of control for the 8. Not that you're controlling your excess, but creating control through excess.


Lust ---> a good chase ---> triumph over adversity ---> I won it (you lost) ---> I'm strong and in control ---> you're weak ----> sadism

Gluttony ----> I want it ---> I'm entitled to it ----> narcissism


----------



## Kisshoten (Dec 15, 2009)

kaleidoscope said:


> *I*'m not saying anything, this has been taken from another forum, and is kind of a new perspective to the Enneagram. I don't really believe in it, it was just interesting to share.


You never gave the source, which is why I directed these questions to you. 

Mind sharing it??


----------



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

Vergil said:


> You never gave the source, which is why I directed these questions to you.
> 
> Mind sharing it??


http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15537#.UX5z-srWOYU


----------

