# Do Most Bullying Victims Deserve to be Bullied/Not Deserve Help?



## rosegeranium (Apr 1, 2013)

AiyokuSama said:


> I don't think you're insensitive. I just think you're trying to deal with a very complex issue.
> 
> I'm going to start off by saying the word "deserving" sucks. It sets up a false dichotomy and makes things very black and white when it's anything but. So I refuse to talk about anyone deserving or not deserving to be bullied.
> 
> ...


The reason I do it is because I remember how it felt. Not to sound "poor me", but kids would make fun of my mom because she drove a crappy car and was kind of, well, weird. What actually drove me to stick up for people was that I remember the kids that would make fun of my mom were mostly wimpy and actually not much better off than me. It pissed me off because I couldn't understand why other people would do it if they knew how it felt. 

It's not like I run around sticking up for people all the time. But I will do it if I think the person really is having trouble fighting back. I don't like to draw attention to myself, I don't like rush in and say,"STOP, YOU FIEND!" Lol, I am always afraid of seeming like Don Quixote in that sense, fighting the windmills. Usually it is only women that I stand up to because they are usually the ones being nasty. Or like my ex-boyfriend, who was a TOTAL wuss and abusive asshole I later found out, used to bully people if he thought he could get away with it. I'd always stop him, but that got old fast, hehe.

I don't desire to be emotionally compensated or need to hear "thank you", it feels weird to me. But I just wonder if ever the time comes when I feel like I should say something...should I not? It just seems like as soon as people get confidence they turn into assholes. It's really not a big deal, I just wonder if I shouldn't even feel bad for the person? I have trouble ignoring meanness.

As you said, defending one's self is something that is learned. But is that what most people think when they don't say anything if someone is being mistreated? Or do they just not want to get involved? I am not speaking of instances I see in public, but at work or in more private social settings.


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## bel (Dec 2, 2012)

I've known schoolyard bullies who were bullied prior to or during their bullying. I'd guess they wanted to relive the experience in the more powerful position in some sick psychoanalytic perspective. Does anyone deserve bullying? No. Break the cycle.


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## Sun Lips (Jan 28, 2013)

rosegeranium said:


> I see a lot of people like that. Yeah, a lot of people that claim to be "for the people", but I watch them and they are really just violent, insecure assholes. Totally nuts. They beat each other up, even.
> 
> Back to what you said, yes, I suppose it is better to have another asshole around than one being bullied. But what I can't stand are the ones that claim to be progressive or merely just again'st mistreatment in general but they act like jerks anyway. What I really can't stand are bully victims that bully people because they have money or just seem "preppy". Like this one really nice girl I worked with was totally persecuted by these geeky(not sayin'geeky is bad) girls that bitch and complain about how evil corporations are, how terrible highschool was, how they can't stand to see gay people or animals mistreated but they totally targeted this girl because she seemed "too nice". The preppy girl was able to defend herself and eventually made friends(sort of) with them, but she was a sensitive person and confessed to me that she wished she didn't have to go through that in the first place.


I have definitely seen this happen. It's almost like "reverse-bullying" .. mistreatment of a person that the offender interprets as "okay" because that victim has, in own mind, already "wronged" them by being privileged or having more friends, etc. Or they get this mindset of, That person has it so great, no one ever makes fun of them, so it's okay for me to do so.

I'll admit bias because I was bullied a bit, kinda on both ends of the spectrum. I was chubby in late elementary and early middle school, so I caught shit about that. Then I filled out early. The boys mysteriously warmed up to me, but the girls were suddenly calling me a whole slew of new names. I guess the default phrase for that is, "They're just jealous." It seems stuck-up to admit there's truth in that, but I think at this point I can. It's the same reason people hate the rich kids, the "popular" kids, and even the reason some of them hate smart kids/"nerds."


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## AiyokuSama (Jul 2, 2013)

rosegeranium said:


> True, but I can't understand why someone would lash out if they already know how it feels to be bullied.


I can. It's a very basic psychological reaction to trying to deflect attention away from a personal weakness. You'll see snide comments, finger pointing and outright bullying from people that feel insecure. We all do it to a greater or lesser degree, it just happens that for the most part it's pretty innocuous and easily ignored.



rosegeranium said:


> However, some bullies are just not connected to their emotions and just want a reaction. In essence, they are bored.


They maybe. Or they may not know how to act on their emotions. This is also common and can be seen a lot in young childred, where one will hit another because they like the other child and want their attention, but they can't think of how to go about it constructively.

As I said in my previous post, the bullying issue isn't a simple one. There are many layers to each individual case.

I'm just really annoyed by the fact that so many people complain about bullying but sure enough the victims act like assholes too.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the human race, it's full of hypocrites.


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## AiyokuSama (Jul 2, 2013)

rosegeranium said:


> But is that what most people think when they don't say anything if someone is being mistreated? Or do they just not want to get involved?


In all honesty, I'd say that latter more often than not. And my guess is that people are afraid to be "in the wrong" of a given conflict. There is also a fear of retaliation.

Myself, I like tilting at windmills because every once in a while it actually is a dragon.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

Well OP, it sounds like you were a victim of bullying if you had the crap beat out of you and people being cruel to you about your mom.

Are you a jerk because you were bullied? IDK. IDK if you are a jerk.

But people can be bullied for lots of reasons that have nothing to do with whether they are spiteful or whatever. People can be bullied because of their ethnicity, their social skills (being shy or awkward), their intelligence (seen as higher or lower), and lots of reasons.

I think there is something that can happen to victims, where they become more reactively aggressive. When I was bullied I responded (finally) by becoming a total bitch (at least superficially). I shaved all my hair off and marked up my clothes with permanent marker, and generally exuded a mood of "don't fuck with me or I'll do something scary to you that you can't imagine" (though I wouldn't, lol, it was a defense). 

I remember when I was going through that phase in high school, a guy who was popular approached me. I just scowled at him and treated him coldly. I assumed he was going to be like some of the other boys I had trouble with. Later, I learned that he had sent me a flower and a note via the school "valentine" system, but it had been intercepted by another girl who had a crush on him and worked in the program. I felt bad for judging him so harshly, and now I don't judge people with the high school mentality that I had adopted from fresh bullying.

But I don't think I'm a complete bitch. So no, I don't think people who have been bullied were somehow "deserving" of it, or that everyone who is bullied is especially aggressive. Even some people who are aggressive, probably as a result of social ostracizing or some form of abuse, often have redeeming qualities that I really like.

Also, most of my best friends have been somehow ostracized. I tend to gravitate towards the misanthropes who were just social outcasts in childhood. I like them and feel that I have learned a lot, and gained a lot of intimacy and friendship from them. People who can overcome their painful experiences tend to be specially wise and interesting, IMO.

Edit: but I can see what you're saying about bullies tending to be in the lower social status. I think a lot of the people who bullied me were compensating for things. I sometimes wonder what happened to them. Most of my friends haven't been bullies--but I assume that some bullies go on to overcome whatever feelings influenced them to treat others like that.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Moop said:


> Do you think the bully victims were always this way?
> Perhaps it's a defense mechanism. A strong offense is the best defense.
> Also (not negating what you did for them, that's very kind and brave of you) I wonder if part of them realizes they never conquered the bully themselves. Someone else did it for them. So as far as they know, if it weren't for you, they would still be bullied. No different. No change. Strength came from outside, not from within themselves.
> 
> I do think you are wrong though. Some people are simply picked on. Disabilities and stuff that can't be helped are definitely reasons, but there is a laaaaarge number that aren't like that. And I think the main reason schools need to intervene is so neither party thinks the behavior is okay.


yeah, I think my largest issue with the OP is that in my experience, I've known a lot of people who were bullied who did not become bullies; they are genuinely nice people. I was bullied myself in middle school.

At the same time, there are some who respond negatively to being helped. I watched a Stalker show last night and the episode was actually about this woman who when she was in high school befriended this guy who was a little socially weird, because she felt sorry for him, and he essentially turned on her at some point and stalked her for ten years to the point of breaking into her house at night and taking pictures of her while she slept, while sending her notes about how he was going to rape and then kill her. When the police (because of that incidence) could justify the warrant and searched his house, they found a handgun he had just bought, pictures of her all over the walls, and lots of child porn on his computer. So I really don't think it's as simple as to say either way whether a bullied person will or will not turn out oddly.

We do have a principle, though, where if you kick a dog often enough, it's understandable if it does turn mean. At the same time, some of those dogs just go crawl off alone and become terrified of people and withdraw. Human behavior is shaped similarly by experiences, we just tend to have more complex reactions at times.

I also think that the distinction you made about "being saved" vs "saving oneself" is huge. Someone can be liberated from the oppression without having had to develop their own moral code and resilience to deal with it. So it's possible to have been freed from the threat while at the same time having absorbed all the bad lessons you were being taught.

it's a pretty complex topic and I don't think one can predict outcome in a general sense -- outcome is specific to the person and their circumstances.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

In some ways, I feel like bullying behavior and the social acceptance of it is kind of instinctual for humans.

As cave men we had to be able to isolate the group member who is being disruptive to the community (like someone who engages in the big taboos like incest, cannibalism, or generally disrupting social harmony.) This is what our legal system is built on--this instinct. But I don't agree that a lot of the bullying victims deserve the kind of "punishment" they get. We have to use our ethical and logical abilities to see the proper treatment of those who trespass upon social harmony.

Someone should not be punished because of their skin color. Someone should not be punished because they do not adhere to gender norms. It is the same instinct that causes us to punish those who are very unsympathetic (like violent psychopaths), as that causes bullies to punish those who have too low-class of clothing.


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## Angus512 (Jul 9, 2013)

meltedsorbet said:


> Also, most of my best friends have been somehow ostracized. I tend to gravitate towards the misanthropes who were just social outcasts in childhood. I like them and feel that I have learned a lot, and gained a lot of intimacy and friendship from them. People who can overcome their painful experiences tend to be specially wise and interesting, IMO.


i like the odd ones out too. they're interesting. but it makes me wince to see them duck their heads and walk on by when they see someone who doesn't like them. i guess that's why i'm so protective of them.


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## Faux (May 31, 2012)

rosegeranium said:


> Also, I'm sorry, but unless you have a mental/physical condition you can't change or truly are a gentle soul with no knowledge of how to fend for yourself...How can you just let yourself be bullied? I mean, I was the sweetest thing but when my life was finally put in danger(one girl flashed a boxcutter at me when we were alone in the bathroom), I changed. I'm not saying that it should ever get to this point, and yes, schools must take a stand to stop such behavior. But if you just let yourself be bullied then you don't love yourself. And if you don't love yourself how can you love anyone else? I mean, we are all learning to love ourselves every day. It's not easy, I have trouble with it too. But I won't just let myself be picked on.


I think this is a matter of the age and the environment of the people in question. They haven't had much time to develop yet, including when it comes to things like morality, boundaries, and dealing with conflict, and the people they're developing the most around and learning the most from is a huge group of dissonant opinions, attitudes, beliefs, and actions. They may even come from a shitty home environment - and god, are there a lot of shitty home environments - where they receive very little of the necessary nurturing or even outright neglect and abuse that teach them dysfunctional ways to relate to others, themselves, and the world around them.

You'd be surprised how the _attitude _of people with mental/physical conditions can vary, though. They're not necessarily helpless.


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, all people act as they are for reasons. Not that bullying someone, is always wrong, it shouldn't be the first option. But to say to never bully someone is unacceptable, if you were ever to bully a bully, it serves a good purpose for all. Generally though, I don't consider anyone to be a bad person, bullies have their reasons for doing so.


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## ptarmigan (Jul 19, 2010)

Bullying is traumatic and people learn the world is a hell for them, that the norm in social relationships is aggression and competition, survival of the fittest. If someone learns the lesson that love is scarce, it's not surprising if they learn to act as aggressors or withdraw or otherwise distrust others. They don't deserve to be bullied just because bullying will teach them to not trust. That is a property of bullying, not of the person and I think they can be forgiven for learning people are a source of pain unless dominated or avoided. God knows rather they deserve mercy.

_Background_: I was bullied pretty badly throughout middle school and early high school. I joined a group that had some tendency to bully others early in high school and also picked on a few kids with friends in elementary school. I've done very unkind things to animals though rarely. I picked on my step-brother a lot as a kid. I was raised in considerable fear of my father as a very young child but my relationship with my dad improved a lot over time as I grew older. As a teenager I was occasionally extremely powerfully compelled to come to the aid of those who were bullied and yet a fear of intervention always won out anyway. I would cast this as cowardice and it was pretty destructive to my sense of self-worth at the time. As an adult I retain some social anxiety and fear accidentally being mean.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

Bullies usually have self-esteem issues, I don't think the victims need help, the bullies do.

I mean the variences of the "victims" are too huge to actually act on the angle, some victims ignore it, some kill themselves, others kill other people - who knows?

But, the one constant is that there IS a bully, and there IS PROBABLY a reason they are bullying, MOST LIKELY self-esteem-based with some improper coping methods learned from their enviroment <most likely provided by their parents, protip>.

The whole "teaching other people to be tough" shit is crap when there's not that many bullies to stand up to anyways. Also it gets boring after a while, and like I said low self-esteem based.


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