# Doctor Who (TV Show)



## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

I really liked Amy as a companion, I appreciated her personality but I can see how she was 'shoved down our throats'. Despite that, season 5 was my utmost favourite season by far, I love the plot and how it progressed. I think Matt Smith is doing an awesome job as the eleventh doctor and hopefully the Christmas regeneration is a rumour. Donna as a companion was pretty cool, but she annoyed me sometimes. I think that the tenth doctor annoyed me more and I can't really put my finger on exactly why though I think it is a bit of the whole 'I need a mate' thing. I think that the new season 7 episodes are alright, hopefully it'll get better as it goes along. The Cold War had some fun humour and the fact that the Doctor knew that warrior was pretty cool. The Snowmen was pretty great, I liked that one a lot. The Rings of Akhaten was okay, the only part I loved was the doctors little emotional 'breakdown' at the end. The Bells of Saint John is my most disliked episode of season 7 so far and I'm honestly excited for Hide and Journey into the Centre of the TARDIS. I can't agree with all the Moffat hate. I liked some of his episodes and hated others. I loved BBC Sherlock Holmes, but Moffat did not write all of those episodes either don't forget.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Indefatigably said:


> I agree entirely.
> 
> I love Sherlock and Doctor Who so much but everyone praises Moffat for everything that goes on in those shows and it makes me want to peel my skin off.


I found the way he handled the Riversong plot points almost ridiculous not to say that the fillers are boring. In the past season he lost that clinician charm he had for me. I know that Amy and Rory couldn't stay in the show forever but leaving at this point felt very bitter and forced to me. He had good opportunities to end their companionship and he made the Doctor see what he see on that episode. Honestly, it felt low for me. RTD's farewell to Donna had a bigger impact on me because I knew that she would be alive and not remembering the Doctor at all, that's tragic. Death is tragic too, but living oblivious to yourself and people who love you is even more tragic than that for me.

@_La Petite Sirène_ I think that Moffat should learn a bit about pacing from Game of Thrones. The episodes are movie length but they feel like both a movie and series, which is strange but great.
I love Matt Smith, I really do love him, but he doesn't shows off enough on the series. I've seen him on other movies and series and he's so much more than what Moffat makes him to be on Doctor Who. He has so much potential to be used. What annoys me even more is that he made Doctor Who a show of drama. Sure, it always had drama one of my favourite moments is when the 4th Doctor expresses his sorrow and regert for killing the Daleks, but Moffat's series are so filled with drama I can no longer feel sorry for any of the characters, not even the Doctor.
I love Doctor Who, but as a lover of the series I refuse to watch it until he have a new writer or another Neil Gaiman episode. The Doctor's Wife was epic.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

La Petite Sirène said:


> I think Moffat ruined companions for us by making us so attached to Amy. Previous companions (besides Rose, and possibly Donna) haven't had so much attention focused on them. When Amy was first introduced into the series, I called the show The Amy Pond Show. Everything was Amy, Amy, Amy. I was disappointed because I wanted Matt Smith to show off his skills as this new regeneration of The Doctor, but there was just way too much focus on Amy. Now, perhaps Moffat has decided not to put such a huge emphasis on Clara. She's interesting enough (reincarnation?) but she's not the focal point. Time to readjust again - back to adventures and flying through time and space! XD;;


I loved Amy; I thought she was tough, but yes I agree. The show did revolve around her. I am glad that they are focusing more on The Doctor, but he really is nothing without his companions. Remember how he was when he lost Amy and Rory? He didn't become "The Doctor" again until the Christmas special, when he found his new companion, Clara. I think that the focus on the companions is justified as long as it isn't excessive.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

Calvaire said:


> I enjoyed Clara in the christmas special,but these first few episodes hven't evoked anything in me.I'm utterly dissapointed,the first half of season 7 was a hit or miss,but still enjoyable.I want the Clara that was in the Christmas special but it's apparent that it isn't how she's going to be.This season has been making me nostalgic for nine and Rose.


I agree. I don't mind Clara too much the way she is, but the Clara in the Xmas special was pretty awesome too.  I'm actually feeling nostalgic for the DoctorDonna dynamic. Really want to go back and watch David Tennant's run again. 



RainbowSprinkles said:


> I think that the tenth doctor annoyed me more and I can't really put my finger on exactly why though I think it is a bit of the whole 'I need a mate' thing.


Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I've always thought the Doctor went in search of companions. Like, he couldn't just travel on his own. He had to find someone to share it with, whether willingly, or by manipulating them into coming along with him. He seems to be just as co-dependent on his companions as they are on him. And now he's found Clara - something of a mystery - and he's attached himself to her. 



AyaSullivan said:


> @_La Petite Sirène_ I think that Moffat should learn a bit about pacing from Game of Thrones. The episodes are movie length but they feel like both a movie and series, which is strange but great.
> I love Matt Smith, I really do love him, but he doesn't shows off enough on the series. I've seen him on other movies and series and he's so much more than what Moffat makes him to be on Doctor Who. He has so much potential to be used. What annoys me even more is that he made Doctor Who a show of drama. Sure, it always had drama one of my favourite moments is when the 4th Doctor expresses his sorrow and regert for killing the Daleks, but Moffat's series are so filled with drama I can no longer feel sorry for any of the characters, not even the Doctor.
> I love Doctor Who, but as a lover of the series I refuse to watch it until he have a new writer or another Neil Gaiman episode. The Doctor's Wife was epic.


The Sherlock episodes literally go for an hour and a half. Game of Thrones is roughly 45-50 minutes long. The pacing in it is fantastic (especially when you consider the contents of the books and how they've structured the show around that). I just think that an hour and a half for a TV episode format is way too long. Shoot the episodes with the right pacing (i.e. film-style pacing, perhaps), and the hour and a half could work. 

Agreed about Matt. I wish they had given him the opportunity to explore and develop his incarnation of the Doctor. At least with Tennant we got to go into different territories regarding his character. There was a lot more to work with. Not so much for Smith, though. Can't wait for the Neil Gaiman episode!  Not long now!



musicluvur21 said:


> I loved Amy; I thought she was tough, but yes I agree. The show did revolve around her. I am glad that they are focusing more on The Doctor, but he really is nothing without his companions. Remember how he was when he lost Amy and Rory? He didn't become "The Doctor" again until the Christmas special, when he found his new companion, Clara. I think that the focus on the companions is justified as long as it isn't excessive.


I agree. He needs his companions just as much as they need him. But what Moffat did with Amy was ridiculous. I eventually got to like her and Rory, but in the beginning I wanted nothing to do with her. I was waiting to see what Matt did with the Doctor, and I feel cheated that I didn't get to - and still haven't - experience(d) that.

Meanwhile, the latest episode was actually pretty cool.  I love a good ol' fashioned ghost story!


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## Calvaire (Nov 14, 2009)

Last night's episode wasn't as bad,but something is still lacking.I feel like with the growing popularity of the show Moffat is trying to sway it into something more 'hip' than it should be I noticed it at the start of season 7 and it's really been turning me off.

Off topic,but has anyone else been addicted to and loving Orphan Black?


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> Hmmm, I could be wrong, but I've always thought the Doctor went in search of companions. Like, he couldn't just travel on his own. He had to find someone to share it with, whether willingly, or by manipulating them into coming along with him. He seems to be just as co-dependent on his companions as they are on him. And now he's found Clara - something of a mystery - and he's attached himself to her.


That is correct. The Doctor always wanted company, it's especially evident as longer as he gets.



> The Sherlock episodes literally go for an hour and a half. Game of Thrones is roughly 45-50 minutes long. The pacing in it is fantastic (especially when you consider the contents of the books and how they've structured the show around that). I just think that an hour and a half for a TV episode format is way too long. Shoot the episodes with the right pacing (i.e. film-style pacing, perhaps), and the hour and a half could work.
> 
> Agreed about Matt. I wish they had given him the opportunity to explore and develop his incarnation of the Doctor. At least with Tennant we got to go into different territories regarding his character. There was a lot more to work with. Not so much for Smith, though. Can't wait for the Neil Gaiman episode!  Not long now!


:I Then my argument is invalid. Maybe not. Moffat should learn to make smaller episodes for Sherlock maybe then people would watch then, no? And I honestly have no idea why he choose to make Sherlock like that; I don't know what is worse the setting of Sherlock or that anime about the Outter and Elder Gods.

Matt's characters isn't allowed to show he must tell us everything, which is something David's didn't. He told us a lot, yes, but showed us even more, that's the problem with Matt's Doctor.
That's the one I'm gonna watch. He's awesome.


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> I agree. He needs his companions just as much as they need him. But what Moffat did with Amy was ridiculous. I eventually got to like her and Rory, but in the beginning I wanted nothing to do with her. I was waiting to see what Matt did with the Doctor, and I feel cheated that I didn't get to - and still haven't - experience(d) that.
> 
> Meanwhile, the latest episode was actually pretty cool.  I love a good ol' fashioned ghost story!


Agreed. I started mostly with Amy and Matt so I can assume that I was more accepting of her because I didn't have tons of standards. And no, I didn't skip Nine or Ten I wen't and watched them afterwards. I don't want a mob after me 3: I think there has been snippets of what he can do with the Doctor but your right, we haven't seen his full potential just yet. I thought Saturdays episode was alright, it really seemed to be lacking though.


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

AyaSullivan said:


> :I Then my argument is invalid. Maybe not. Moffat should learn to make smaller episodes for Sherlock maybe then people would watch then, no? And I honestly have no idea why he choose to make Sherlock like that; I don't know what is worse the setting of Sherlock or that anime about the Outter and Elder Gods.


Apparently, the BCC Sherlock episodes are so long because each one is based of off a seperate book. They (Moffat didn't right _all _of the episodes) couldn't have fit all that material into one hour and if you made it more than on episode wouldn't it just get mixed up and annoying? Personally, I liked the length. It made me feel like I was watching a movie, not a TV show.


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## Morrissey (Feb 17, 2013)

Started watching it a few weeks ago and I'm about to star season 5, it's been so far. I do miss Rose and Donna, they were both awesome. Not a fan of Martha, though.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

RainbowSprinkles said:


> Apparently, the BCC Sherlock episodes are so long because each one is based of off a seperate book. They (Moffat didn't right _all _of the episodes) couldn't have fit all that material into one hour and if you made it more than on episode wouldn't it just get mixed up and annoying? Personally, I liked the length. It made me feel like I was watching a movie, not a TV show.


I found it a bit boring but it could be worse. Honestly, I prefer the Sherlock Holmes movies.


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

AyaSullivan said:


> I found it a bit boring but it could be worse. Honestly, I prefer the Sherlock Holmes movies.


I find that Benedict Cumberbatch gave a more accurate portrayal of Sherlock Holmes than Robert Downey Jr.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

RainbowSprinkles said:


> I find that Benedict Cumberbatch gave a more accurate portrayal of Sherlock Holmes than Robert Downey Jr.


I don't take that from him but RDJ is so much more fun to watch.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

Calvaire said:


> Last night's episode wasn't as bad,but something is still lacking.I feel like with the growing popularity of the show Moffat is trying to sway it into something more 'hip' than it should be I noticed it at the start of season 7 and it's really been turning me off.
> 
> Off topic,but has anyone else been addicted to and loving Orphan Black?


Yes, I have been getting into Orphan Black lately. It's gripping and rather unpredictable, which I love. I'm not used to a plot that is original; but then again, the mystery hasn't been fully revealed yet, so there's much more still to go.


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

AyaSullivan said:


> I don't take that from him but RDJ is so much more fun to watch.


Yeah, point made there for sure. I just watch Iron Man and the Avengers to see RDJ because I love Benedict's Sherlock to much ;3


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

AyaSullivan said:


> Moffat should learn to make smaller episodes for Sherlock maybe then people would watch then, no? And I honestly have no idea why he choose to make Sherlock like that; I don't know what is worse the setting of Sherlock or that anime about the Outter and Elder Gods.


Moffat is a good writer when his writing is concentrated into specific episodes or periods of time. For example, his writing worked really well when he would write the odd two-episode-storylines (The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang etc etc). But when it comes to spreading his ideas out over an entire season, I think he loses some of his ability to keep the audience engaged. His pacing is thrown out of whack, his ideas sometimes take on a life of their own and aren't executed as well as they should be etc. I know he doesn't write every single episode, but he's the Head Writer for the show which means he has input into the overall story arch of the season, and the foreshadowing of what's to come in episodes that he doesn't write. As a team of writers, the writers for Doctor Who are great at doing their own episodes. But when it comes to putting it all together as a season, things tend to fall apart a little bit. 



RainbowSprinkles said:


> Agreed. I started mostly with Amy and Matt so I can assume that I was more accepting of her because I didn't have tons of standards. And no, I didn't skip Nine or Ten I wen't and watched them afterwards. I don't want a mob after me 3: I think there has been snippets of what he can do with the Doctor but your right, we haven't seen his full potential just yet. I thought Saturdays episode was alright, it really seemed to be lacking though.


Don't worry, there'll be no mobs coming after you.  I found Ecclestone's Doctor to be really dark and intense. It's a shame he did only the one season, because I think that would have been quite an interesting character to explore. Tennant's Docotr was a really good mix of eccentric and intense. On the surface he was just brimming with ideas and information and thoughts, but when it came to the heart of things, he was really quite intense. The End of Time part 1 / The End of Time part 2 are really difficult for me to watch. SO MANY FEELS.

Also, regarding the character of Sherlock Holmes - I think Brandywine Cumberbund is a much more classical version of Sherlock Holmes, probably more faithful to the literature written about him. RDJ is a more contemporary version (well, I say contemporary but I rather feel he's more like a steampunk charicature of Sherlock Holmes). Have either of you seen Elementary with Jonny Lee Miller? I really enjoy his portrayal. He's kind of like a mix of BC and RDJ, with less cheese and more classical elements, but definitely contemporary.  Highly recommend it if you haven't had a chance to watch it yet.


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> Don't worry, there'll be no mobs coming after you.  I found Ecclestone's Doctor to be really dark and intense. It's a shame he did only the one season, because I think that would have been quite an interesting character to explore. Tennant's Docotr was a really good mix of eccentric and intense. On the surface he was just brimming with ideas and information and thoughts, but when it came to the heart of things, he was really quite intense. The End of Time part 1 / The End of Time part 2 are really difficult for me to watch. SO MANY FEELS.


Thank you c; I've been scared of mobs coming after me for not liking Nine at all as well 3: People just really need to respect other's opinions. I found Nine annoying honestly. He just ... seemed like a bit of a 'whiny baby' if you get what I mean. I did like Ten just not how much he needed a 'mate'. I thought that was overused in his character. The End of Time parts 1 and 2 where my favourite episodes with Ten for sure.



La Petite Sirène said:


> Also, regarding the character of Sherlock Holmes - I think Brandywine Cumberbund is a much more classical version of Sherlock Holmes, probably more faithful to the literature written about him. RDJ is a more contemporary version (well, I say contemporary but I rather feel he's more like a steampunk charicature of Sherlock Holmes). Have either of you seen Elementary with Jonny Lee Miller? I really enjoy his portrayal. He's kind of like a mix of BC and RDJ, with less cheese and more classical elements, but definitely contemporary.  Highly recommend it if you haven't had a chance to watch it yet.


I've never seen Brandywine Cumberbund, seems interesting but because I'm lazy I'll never get around to watching anything with his/her interpretation. I agree with you about RDJ being a 'steampunk caricature'. That was exactly what I was trying to say c; Ugh, I really dislike Elementary. Jonny Lee Miller isn't as bad as the way that Watson is portrayed. Over all I still love Benedict ... heh.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

RainbowSprinkles said:


> Thank you c; I've been scared of mobs coming after me for not liking Nine at all as well 3: People just really need to respect other's opinions. I found Nine annoying honestly. He just ... seemed like a bit of a 'whiny baby' if you get what I mean. I did like Ten just not how much he needed a 'mate'. I thought that was overused in his character. The End of Time parts 1 and 2 where my favourite episodes with Ten for sure.
> 
> I've never seen Brandywine Cumberbund, seems interesting but because I'm lazy I'll never get around to watching anything with his/her interpretation. I agree with you about RDJ being a 'steampunk caricature'. That was exactly what I was trying to say c; Ugh, I really dislike Elementary. Jonny Lee Miller isn't as bad as the way that Watson is portrayed. Over all I still love Benedict ... heh.


I need to go back and watch the first season of Doctor Who 2005, because I don't remember Nine being whiney or annoying. Though maybe a bit of time and distance might help me to see him objectively. :3 Eleven has very much "needed" his companions too. Look at how lost he was after Amy and Rory left. And when he asked Clara if she wanted to join him, the look of pure jubilation on his face was enough to suggest just how much he needed to not be on his own. Plus, he seems to be testing her. The more adventurous and Amy-like she is, the more he approves of her (which I think is really unfair...!!). 

*giggles* Brandywine Cumberbund _*is*_ Benedict Cumberbatch. I like giving him different names whenever I type his name out because it's such an interesting sounding name.  Sorry for the confusion!! I'm really sad you dislike Joan Watson. I agree that I had reservations about her being female (and not for the sake of her being female, but for what that might do to the Holmes/Watson dynamic - I'm not interested in love stories). But Joan has really grown on me. :3 I think Lucy Liu has done a wonderful job of bringing her to life and giving her her own flavour.   But to each their own!  It's cool to have a selection to choose from. :3


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## RainbowSprinkles (Jul 17, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> I need to go back and watch the first season of Doctor Who 2005, because I don't remember Nine being whiney or annoying. Though maybe a bit of time and distance might help me to see him objectively. :3 Eleven has very much "needed" his companions too. Look at how lost he was after Amy and Rory left. And when he asked Clara if she wanted to join him, the look of pure jubilation on his face was enough to suggest just how much he needed to not be on his own. Plus, he seems to be testing her. The more adventurous and Amy-like she is, the more he approves of her (which I think is really unfair...!!).
> 
> *giggles* Brandywine Cumberbund _*is*_ Benedict Cumberbatch. I like giving him different names whenever I type his name out because it's such an interesting sounding name.  Sorry for the confusion!! I'm really sad you dislike Joan Watson. I agree that I had reservations about her being female (and not for the sake of her being female, but for what that might do to the Holmes/Watson dynamic - I'm not interested in love stories). But Joan has really grown on me. :3 I think Lucy Liu has done a wonderful job of bringing her to life and giving her her own flavour.   But to each their own!  It's cool to have a selection to choose from. :3


What I really meant with 'whiny baby' was that I think he overly expressed his stress and anger. Sorry if that mad absolutely no sense! I think Ten annoyed me about his 'need' because of how he expressed it. Can't really explain that's all I got, sorry. Him pushing Amy like traits onto Clara _is _really annoying. For sure.

Oh my god I feel like an idiot now! I'm not interested in love stories either (heh) but I just ... didn't like her interpretation. I'm really stuck on BBC Sherlock honestly.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> Moffat is a good writer when his writing is concentrated into specific episodes or periods of time. For example, his writing worked really well when he would write the odd two-episode-storylines (The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang etc etc). But when it comes to spreading his ideas out over an entire season, I think he loses some of his ability to keep the audience engaged. His pacing is thrown out of whack, his ideas sometimes take on a life of their own and aren't executed as well as they should be etc. I know he doesn't write every single episode, but he's the Head Writer for the show which means he has input into the overall story arch of the season, and the foreshadowing of what's to come in episodes that he doesn't write. As a team of writers, the writers for Doctor Who are great at doing their own episodes. But when it comes to putting it all together as a season, things tend to fall apart a little bit.


I can only agree.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

What'd you guys think of Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS?


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

La Petite Sirène said:


> I agree with the both of you.  And I think you've touched on something interesting there, @_musicluvur21_. I suppose if the Doctor did ever meet his match (someone like River Song, perhaps) then I might not have a problem with it. I guess it's that aspect of the Doctor being so old and wise, carrying the weight of everything on his shoulder, and having some young human chick mooning after him that annoys me.
> 
> But, y'know, I would love to know what happened to his actual family. If I'm not mistaken, it's been alluded to that he had a wife and kids (and subsequent grand children who have appeared on the show in the past), and that they possibly may have died when Gallifrey was destroyed. I'd love to know what happened with that.


Yes, I quite agree that when the companions pine for the Doctor it is rather annoying, but there might be something there. The Doctor offers a type of security and a certain acceptance, which he offers to all of his companions. I believe that the companions find him to be attractive in the respect that he is a kind, wise, and generous being. Since they are not as wise as he, perhaps they do not see this as the case but rather translate that feeling of appreciation into feelings of attraction. The Doctor already knows that they are mistaking their feelings for him which is why he never gives them a change in that regard. Then again, maybe he feels more comfortable being alone, for fear that he'll only lose the one he comes to love in the end, anyway. He is a Time Lord after all, and a relationship with a human would prove to be impossible.

I'm afraid I haven't seen the episodes that mention his family, so I can't help you there. I will see if I can find them though and when I do I'll let you know any theories I have ^^

As for you @AyaSullivan I agree he is a guardian, but to some people that's what they need in life and so they seek a romantic relationship with the person who harbors them. I believe it's called "transference" or something like that. While it may seem strange to you or to me, some might find a sort of sanctuary in "loving" the Doctor and try to fulfill themselves through him. As I said above, sometimes people mistake one kind of love for another. 

I personally think that no one should have to be alone, not even the Doctor. Everyone deserves a chance at love. If the thought of him with anyone in that way is a turn-off for you, then what about with his Gallifreyan wife? I'm just curious as to how you'd feel if it was someone he was "meant" to be with, persay.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

ShelbyLabyrinth said:


> See, I love the Cybermen. I've missed seeing them in the recent seasons, so I must catch up to watch that episode. The season 2 episodes with the Cybermen are probably my favorite.


I'd have to say my favorite "monster" from Doctor Who would have to be the weeping angels. They creep me out a lot, but they're a wonderful opponent. But I also enjoy episodes that stray away from the usual adversaries of the Doctor. I have to say that "Midnight" is my favorite episode, because it ends and still has you guessing/breathless.


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## ShelbyLabyrinth (Jan 21, 2013)

musicluvur21 said:


> I'd have to say my favorite "monster" from Doctor Who would have to be the weeping angels. They creep me out a lot, but they're a wonderful opponent. But I also enjoy episodes that stray away from the usual adversaries of the Doctor. I have to say that "Midnight" is my favorite episode, because it ends and still has you guessing/breathless.


Oh yea, I love the weeping angels. They're so creepy, but they're among my favorite villains, too. And about that episode, it was interesting. It felt like it was too short, though.


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## Ashen (May 10, 2013)

I love the weeping angels too. However, I can't help but feel Moffat ruined them a little by adding unnecessary rules and mythos to them. =/ "An image of a weeping angel becomes a weeping angel".... what?


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

ShelbyLabyrinth said:


> Oh yea, I love the weeping angels. They're so creepy, but they're among my favorite villains, too. And about that episode, it was interesting. It felt like it was too short, though.


Maybe you felt it was too short because there was actually no resolution in the episode- usually in Doctor Who episodes there is an explanation that follows the incident, but he barely touched on it.


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## ShelbyLabyrinth (Jan 21, 2013)

musicluvur21 said:


> Maybe you felt it was too short because there was actually no resolution in the episode- usually in Doctor Who episodes there is an explanation that follows the incident, but he barely touched on it.


Yea, that explains it. It was a great episode, though.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

ShelbyLabyrinth said:


> Yea, that explains it. It was a great episode, though.


Agreed.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

The latest episode... someone, please. Give me your thoughts! I don't think I have quite processed what I just watched.


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

Just saw the latest episode. Thought it was pretentious and very deeply weird, like Neil Gaiman (not a writer I like).

Under Moffat, the program suffers from solipsism; it's obsessed with climbing up and down its own narrative structure, and fetishisation of the Doctor. In the ultimate analysis, it's masturbatory; it has no sense of the big picture, little connection with reality, and little interest in ideas.

Instead of telling an exciting and interesting story, the story is only relevant inasmuch as it has an impact on the characters (who they are, the origins, their emotional entanglements). The Doctor's universe works by magical thinking and cheap sentiment. (In the last season alone, the Ice Warriors were defeated by being told that killing people isn't very nice; a living sun was defeated by Clara's memory of her dead mother (aww); and the scary monster just turns out to be misunderstood and lonely.)

In the old series, the Doctor was a gentleman scientist (in the Verne/Wells/Doyle/Quatermass tradition) who used his ingenuity and intellect to solve problems, and, although he had a strong ethical core, was emotionally aloof. Now, the Doctor is no longer an Enlightenment scientific/humanist hero, who is curious about the world, asks questions, investigates, and uses his reason and empiricism to solve problems, but knows everything without asking questions and changes the timeline when it suits him. He's been turned from a character who can be emulated (he's clever because he knows a lot and wants to know more) into God - and is to be worshipped.*

*: In fact, the rational hero has almost vanished from television, with the possible exception of _House _(which has ended).

The program was about history and science (Hartnell); politics and humanist ethics (Pertwee); and science fiction and philosophical ideas (Tom Baker). It's now a programme made by people who watch TV, not people who read books. (The old series had a wide range of writers, most of whom had studied arts or science, and were voracious readers.) The new series is largely conscious of TV and film, pop culture and celebrities, not of science, history or literature.*

*: Can you imagine any of the following being made today: A comedy of manners about the Trojan Wars? A historical drama about social determinism, the nature of history and destiny? A Shakespearean history chronicle written in iambic pentameter? A story set around the Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve? A fantasy about anthropology, psychology and religion? A Jungian / Buddhist parable drawing on Ursula LeGuin? A debate about evolution? And yet these are among the best Dr. Who episodes. People _liked _science fiction that raised ideas about society and philosophy, and that made them think.

It's doubtful that viewers today will be inspired to become liberal, literate, humanist, scientific, _curious_ in the way that audiences of the old series were. And yet this is a program that is supposed to be "about discovery, about finding the alien and making sense of it", that challenges the viewer to ask questions not about narrative structure, but about the world.

And this seems to be endemic. 1960s shows were often more cerebral, and also more fun. They emphasised exploration and curiosity: seeing the world, and having adventures - and were often about real world issues. Nowadays, it's introspective navel gazing, like looking through the wrong end of a telescope. There's a po-faced humourlessness, which is an adolescent idea of "seriousness". Everyone is bloody miserable, and the lighting is either so dark you can hardly see anything, or else a drab grey.* (When you can actually see anything at all, and the camera isn't dancing around as though the cameraman is suffering from simultaneous attacks of St. Vitus's Dance and delirium tremens.)

*: This has happened in James Bond (compare Skyfall to Goldfinger or You Only Live Twice), Sherlock, Batman (angst, although mercifully free from shaky cam), The Prisoner (which ignores, when it doesn't contradict, the original series' theme of freedom and autonomy vs. conformity) and Star Trek (which is now about spaceships blowing up, not boldly going to strange new worlds, and from which humanist principles seem to be largely absent).

What matters is the visceral excitement and the appeal to the emotions. Today’s entertainment is far more concerned with _feeling_ than it is with _thinking_ (plot, ideas)—audiences want to empathise with characters that they know well, in the sort of program they’ve seen before, rather than see intelligent heroes think through problems and find solutions, have their ideas challenged, and learn something new.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

Cosmic Hobo said:


> What matters is the visceral excitement and the appeal to the emotions. Today’s entertainment is far more concerned with _feeling_ than it is with _thinking_ (plot, ideas)—audiences want to empathise with characters that they know well, in the sort of program they’ve seen before, rather than see intelligent heroes think through problems and find solutions, have their ideas challenged, and learn something new.


Is that necessarily negative, though? Generally, I prefer to watch a movie or show in which I can empathize with the characters. While I enjoy the new Doctor Who (I have never seen the original, so forgive me if I don't know what I'm missing), I also enjoy movies with "cerebral plots", so to speak. If there ever was a show or movie that I enjoyed best, it was one that was both emotionally gripping and psychologically stimulating. Since I have never personally seen the original Doctor Who, I cannot fully compare the then-and-now, but I can honestly give my opinion on the revival series, and I enjoy it. I see your point, of course; someone as intelligent as you might wish for more stimulating plots (as you are clearly mentally capable of understanding complex situations, and you might enjoy the challenge), but sometimes it's nice to just sit back and enjoy mindless, emotional entertainment. I suppose this is just a point brought up from the other end of things. 

On another note, is it true that Matt Smith is leaving the cast? I am honestly not sure at this point, because one can never know facts from fiction when it comes to the movie world. Is there anyone on this thread that is absolutely certain (with credible evidence) one way or another?


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

musicluvur21 said:


> On another note, is it true that Matt Smith is leaving the cast? I am honestly not sure at this point, because one can never know facts from fiction when it comes to the movie world. Is there anyone on this thread that is absolutely certain (with credible evidence) one way or another?


I heard that he will continue through the rest of the year. It's sad, because in the new series he's been my favorite Doctor. 

BBC News - Doctor Who actress on Matt Smith departure

Doctor Who? Matt Smith to Leave BBC Series At End of Year

And possibly the new Doctor?


* *




'Doctor Who': Rory Kinnear Receives 'Formal Offer' To Replace Matt Smith As The Doctor


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

Ellis Bell said:


> I heard that he will continue through the rest of the year. It's sad, because in the new series he's been my favorite Doctor.
> 
> BBC News - Doctor Who actress on Matt Smith departure
> 
> ...


I agree, he's the favorite doctor I've seen (and I've only watched the Revival series). I wish he'd stay, but I wonder if he's just worried about being typecast?


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

According to Matt Smith's bio on imdb: "Tom Baker did it for seven years but he did it in different circumstances. I couldn't do this for seven years. I'd be run into the ground."


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## FeliciaSueLynn (Jun 18, 2013)

I think it's time though for Matt Smith to leave. As a new Whovian, I started with Nine and I'm not sure I would have wanted David Tennant (who is my favorite Doctor) to have more than three seasons either. The whole point of the show is change and seeing the personalities of the different doctors based on what they were born out of for each regeneration. I only wish Moffat would step down as a writer with how he treats females on the show (and really any show he directs) it just isn't nice. They are more like a prop than a character. I will be sad to see Matt go, but I just happen to think it's time as well. He also doesn't want to get stuck as that guy who played one of the Doctor's forever.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

FeliciaSueLynn said:


> I think it's time though for Matt Smith to leave. As a new Whovian, I started with Nine and I'm not sure I would have wanted David Tennant (who is my favorite Doctor) to have more than three seasons either. The whole point of the show is change and seeing the personalities of the different doctors based on what they were born out of for each regeneration. I only wish Moffat would step down as a writer with how he treats females on the show (and really any show he directs) it just isn't nice. They are more like a prop than a character. I will be sad to see Matt go, but I just happen to think it's time as well. He also doesn't want to get stuck as that guy who played one of the Doctor's forever.


While I don't agree on Matt, I surely agree on Moffat.


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## SailorStar (Jan 23, 2013)

FeliciaSueLynn said:


> I only wish Moffat would step down as a writer with how he treats females on the show (and really any show he directs) it just isn't nice. They are more like a prop than a character. I will be sad to see Matt go, but I just happen to think it's time as well. He also doesn't want to get stuck as that guy who played one of the Doctor's forever.


What do you mean "how he treats females on the show"? I haven't heard about this! Is there an article you can link me to on it?


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## FeliciaSueLynn (Jun 18, 2013)

musicluvur21 said:


> What do you mean "how he treats females on the show"? I haven't heard about this! Is there an article you can link me to on it?


I'm pretty sure this is the article that talks about it. However, if you aren't completely caught up this is pretty spoilery so beware. What is wrong with Doctor Who? | The Idiot Box


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Oh, wow, the author doesn't spare Moffatt, do they?


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## FeliciaSueLynn (Jun 18, 2013)

Haha. Not really, but he doesn't seem to spare many of the writers for the show. I tend to agree with just about all of it with slight differences here and there. It's definitely something to think about.


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

In the old series, there were several companions who were competent and intelligent professional women.

Barbara Wright - one of the original cast. School-teacher (history).
Zoe Heriot - astrophysicist, genius IQ.
Dr. Liz Shaw - scientist, with degrees in medicine, physics, &c.
Sarah Jane Smith - investigative journalist; feminist.
Romana (both of them) - Time Lady, the Doctor's _equal_.
Professor Evelyn Smythe - middle-aged historian.

Zoe & Romana (I) are both the Doctor's equal in IQ (and cleverer in some respects - maths, physics); the difference is that he has more experience. (In her first stories, Romana goes around being terribly snooty, treating every situation with amused disdain, & looks down on the Doctor because her university results were better than his.)

Barbara, Liz & Evelyn are all independent, & capable of putting the Doctor in his place.

The only possible relationship was with Romana - and she was a fellow Time Lord. (The actress, Lalla Ward, married Tom Baker.) In the show, they have a relationship similar to Mrs. Peel & Steed in _The Avengers _- an equal partnership, in which they're both highly intelligent & witty people who save planets / solve mysteries for fun. (And in both series, the woman is arguably more competent.)


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

Of course, this was also the days when the Doctor, even though he was a member of a technologically advanced & extremely powerful race, was a scientist & an explorer - not the Last of the Time Lords / the Time Lord Victorious. Lawrence Miles has some interesting things to say about the fetishisation of the Doctor and how his transformation into a god is essentially a violation of the show's original principles. (His blog's here - Lawrence Miles' Doctor Who Thing.)


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## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

Cosmic Hobo said:


> In the old series, there were several companions who were competent and intelligent professional women.
> 
> Barbara Wright - one of the original cast. School-teacher (history).
> Zoe Heriot - astrophysicist, genius IQ.
> ...


Yeah, it's interesting how the treatment of women has degenerated so much; the female companions are mostly an afterthought or characters who are just there to serve the Doctor in some way. And also with the female companions we get these days, because so many of them are in a transitional phase in their lives, they want to go on traveling with the doctor. They don't realize that their time with him is temporary.


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## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

Ellis Bell said:


> Yeah, it's interesting how the treatment of women has degenerated so much; the female companions are mostly an afterthought or characters who are just there to serve the Doctor in some way. And also with the female companions we get these days, because so many of them are in a transitional phase in their lives, they want to go on traveling with the doctor. They don't realize that their time with him is temporary.


I've seen some of the classic era (a bit of all the previous Doctors) and the female companions, back then, seemed more active, especially Romana and Sarah Jane Smith. Sarah Jane especially always wanted to do something, she always wanted to help even if she got in trouble. A bit like Donna Noble. Most of the companions sit and wait for orders from the Doctor and, sometimes, don't even look confused when presented with an situation THAT strange.


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## Bewilderebeest (Jun 22, 2013)

Cosmic Hobo said:


> In the old series, there were several companions who were competent and intelligent professional women.
> 
> Barbara Wright - one of the original cast. School-teacher (history).
> Zoe Heriot - astrophysicist, genius IQ.
> ...


I've been watching Doctor Who since the mid eighties and I just don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

You're mistaking their descriptions and professions with how they're actually being portrayed.

Prior to the reboot of the show women were generally portrayed as the weaker sex, always finding trouble and screaming in fright when doing so. Very rarely did they get a chance to be seen as competent. 

Currently women are saving the universe, darn near single-handed, and surprising the Doctor in doing so. Rose Tyler, Martha Jones, Donna Noble, River Song...all having crucial roles in the Doctor's adventures. Clara selflessly gave her existence to save his life.


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

Are you thinking of Peri?


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## Bewilderebeest (Jun 22, 2013)

Cosmic Hobo:3905196 said:


> Are you thinking of Peri?


I'm sorry....what? The Doctor saved Peri and regenerated because of it.


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

Sharaz Jek said:


> I'm sorry....what? The Doctor saved Peri and regenerated because of it.


I was thinking of this:



> Prior to the reboot of the show women were generally portrayed as the weaker sex, always finding trouble and screaming in fright when doing so. Very rarely did they get a chance to be seen as competent.


You said you'd been watching Who since the 80s. If you're thinking of the 80s companions, then you're right. They're a hopeless bunch, by and large. (Exception: Ace. And, to a degree, the much maligned Mel - who's the most refreshingly_likeable _companion since Romana.) The likes of Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Turlough and Peri (whine, sulk, mouth on legs) are a decisive step back from the companions of the 70s - Sarah, Leela, the Romanas. (This is also the time when they formally become "Companions" rather than characters in their own right.)


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## Bewilderebeest (Jun 22, 2013)

I misspoke slightly. I first started watching Doctor Who in the 80s when PBS started showing Tom Baker as the Doctor. Since then I've seen nearly every episode since the 1963 pilot, including the reconstructed 'destroyed' episodes.


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## mackenzieriver (Jul 15, 2013)

This might be steering a little bit off topic, but back to the original concern that Doctor Who is changing too much: I do miss Donna as well, and I miss the earlier episodes. However I think this show changes and adapts with its writers and the current world. It does change quite a bit all the time, but I have faith that even if it ventures from its core idea and philosophy, it's strong enough to eventually stir back towards its authenticity. Although I enjoy the older New Who episodes a bit more than the newer ones, the newer ones do have their value and such. I think when the show changes writers the dynamic of the show will also change somewhat as well. I suppose we just have to be patient and have hope, because there are always new ideas, and new ways the show can develop, that can surprise us. Meanwhile I'll just wait for the 50th and continue being a fan. Each show has its ups and downs and no matter what I think I'll still enjoy Doctor Who as a show in general.


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