# New type-labels?



## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

meh why tryhard when Socio already did this stuff?

...Socio sure needs to become more well known...


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

So, piggybacking off this description, do you think it's typical for an SJ to have low self-confidence?


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Yup yup. 
These are Socionics quadras with MBTI twist in the form of compulsive desire to put labels everywhere instead of neutral α, β, γ, δ.

The video had many sane thoughts though and seem to be an attempt at making a departure from stereotyping finally.


----------



## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Ixim said:


> meh why tryhard when Socio already did this stuff?
> 
> ...Socio sure needs to become more well known...


Because Socionics was boring, and gave the quadrants boring names like alpha beta delta and gamma. ;-)


----------



## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

Cryo said:


> Yup yup.
> These are Socionics quadras with MBTI twist in the form of compulsive desire to put labels everywhere instead of neutral α, β, γ, δ.
> 
> The video had many sane thoughts though and seem to be an attempt at making a departure from stereotyping finally.


They're not entirely neutral though. "Alpha" and "Beta" carry certain connotations. And finding out INFP is "Delta" made me feel like I'd just been sorted into Slytherin House or something, and not as a compliment :tongue:


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Verity3 said:


> They're not entirely neutral though. "Alpha" and "Beta" carry certain connotations. And finding out INFP is "Delta" made me feel like I'd just been sorted into Slytherin House or something, and not as a compliment :tongue:


I get what you mean concerning Alpha. 
The rest doesn't seem as having connotations, but maybe I'm missing out on something here? and what's wrong with being "Delta"


----------



## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

Cryo said:


> I get what you mean concerning Alpha.
> The rest doesn't seem as having connotations, but maybe I'm missing out on something here? and what's wrong with being "Delta"


"Beta" --> enforcer, guard-dog, somehow "less than" alpha

"Gamma," "Delta" --> even lower on the food chain/totem pole

I don't know, most pop culture references to the "Harry Potter" universe seem to favor Gryffindor and mention it first, while side-eyeing Slytherin and mentioning it fourth. Like, it's ALWAYS the fourth one. 

Okay, chalk it up to subjective paranoia on my part. :laughing:


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Verity3 said:


> "Beta" --> enforcer, guard-dog, somehow "less than" alpha
> 
> "Gamma," "Delta" --> even lower on the food chain/totem pole
> 
> ...


In Socionics terms they are frequently viewed not as an hierarchy but as a circle, especially when it comes to explanation of society evolutionary processes.

Like, it all starts with Alpha - The Torch Bearers, who are coming up with new ideas and distribute them in the society. Alpha then gives way to Beta - The Action Takers, who turn concept into the ideology and implement new rules, creating the corresponding organizational structure. Beta gives place to Gamma - The Reformers, who criticize mistakes of the previous stage and carry out reforms. Finally here comes Delta - The Perfectors, who bring the original, but reformed now idea to fruition by improving its implementation. Then the circle repeats itself, starting again with Alpha.


----------



## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Verity3 said:


> They're not entirely neutral though. "Alpha" and "Beta" carry certain connotations. And finding out INFP is "Delta" made me feel like I'd just been sorted into Slytherin House or something, and not as a compliment :tongue:


No worries! Slytherins would certainly NOT be Delta! Yeah I/E NFP Slytherin...whatever. :happy:

edit: Actually I'd reckon that HP houses would go as follows(pertaining to alpha...delta quadra):

Gryffindor-Ravenclaw-Slytherin-Hufflepuff

The more you know!


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

emberfly said:


> So, piggybacking off this description, do you think it's typical for an SJ to have low self-confidence?


I'm curious as to what was in either the SFJ or STJ descriptions that pointed you in the direction of low self-confidence in SJs. The only thing I can think of is that you are viewing the STJ need for thorough preparation as some form of compensation for a lack of self-confidence. If so, it would be a case of judging a behavior without understanding motivation. As we've discussed previously and as the video also mentions, the need for thorough preparation is motivated by survival instinct. Although being thoroughly prepared does instill confidence, it's merely a byproduct of the survival prep.


----------



## SilverRain (May 15, 2014)

Michael Pierce videos, Socionics quadras and Berens/Montoya Cognitive Styles cover the same method of looking at the functions.

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/295034-finally-official-tandem-group-names.html


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

jcal said:


> I'm curious as to what was in either the SFJ or STJ descriptions that pointed you in the direction of low self-confidence in SJs. The only thing I can think of is that you are viewing the STJ need for thorough preparation as some form of compensation for a lack of self-confidence. If so, it would be a case of judging a behavior without understanding motivation. As we've discussed previously and as the video also mentions, the need for thorough preparation *is motivated by survival instinct*. Although being thoroughly prepared *does instill confidence*, it's merely a byproduct of the *survival prep*.


Ya, so low self-confidence or self-assuredness. You think you can't survive as-is so you prepare for it. It's not feeling secure in yourself. Not placing a ton of innate confidence in your own abilities (Se) and so you prepare hardcore.


Perhaps _confidence _is the wrong word, I'll concede there. But there is definitely something I'm getting at. 

But it's like low innate self-assuredness. Like you don't innately believe that everything is going to be okay (Ni). you have to do everything in your power to ENSURE that it's going to be okay. (hey, maybe that's why they titled ESTJs "the guardians" :O!)

Can you really deny that?

If it weren't that way, you wouldn't value this preparation so much, right? I don't think I'm saying anything shocking here. I'm just taking this information to its logical conclusion.


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

emberfly said:


> Ya, so low self-confidence or self-assuredness. You think you can't survive as-is so you prepare for it. It's not feeling secure in yourself. Not placing a ton of innate confidence in your own abilities (Se) and so you prepare hardcore.
> 
> 
> Perhaps _confidence _is the wrong word, I'll concede there. But there is definitely something I'm getting at.
> ...


I think you're still underestimasting just how instinctive Si is. I don't VALUE preparednes, I'm driven to it. Does a spider build a perfect web because it lacks confidence? As a higher functioning entity than the spider, I have the ability to allow my values to direct where the innate urge to prepare is focused, but the urge itself is hardwired. That instinctive urge drives everything else, not the other way around.


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

jcal said:


> I think you're still underestimasting just how instinctive Si is. I don't VALUE preparednes, I'm driven to it. Does a spider build a perfect web because it lacks confidence? As a higher functioning entity than the spider, I have the ability to allow my values to direct where the innate urge to prepare is focused, but the urge itself is hardwired. That instinctive urge drives everything else, not the other way around.


Okay I see now. That is a very good metaphor--I understand now.

So then you think Si doms are innately sp subtypes, no questions asked?


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

emberfly said:


> Okay I see now. That is a very good metaphor--I understand now.
> 
> So then you think Si doms are innately sp subtypes, no questions asked?


I don't think anything is absolute, but I would be surprised if the large majority weren't sp.


----------



## Pinina (Jan 6, 2015)

emberfly said:


> Ya, so low self-confidence or self-assuredness. You think you can't survive as-is so you prepare for it. It's not feeling secure in yourself. Not placing a ton of innate confidence in your own abilities (Se) and so you prepare hardcore.
> 
> 
> Perhaps _confidence _is the wrong word, I'll concede there. But there is definitely something I'm getting at.
> ...


No, no no. It's not about low confidence. I do beleive that everything is going to be okey. I just prefare to prepare for it, for an even better ending. And if anything, I put a lot of trust in myself. I do everything in my power to ensure that everything is going to be okey. (I'd rather use the word "good" or something like that.) I wont deny that. And I won't deny that ESTJs are called the guardians. But I will deny that an STJ would have bad confidence or low self-assuredness. I will deny that we do not feel secure of ourselves, that we don't think we can survive as it is, that we don't think everything is going to be okay, and most of all, that we don't put a lot of confidence in our abilities. Cause that's simply not the case. If you're going to play a game of football, do you warm up, prepare and get ready for the game, or do you just throw yourself out in the game, unprepared? No matter how good you are, you do prepare. A soldier would always check his gear, go through his gun, go through the plans, one last time before mission, no matter how good he is.


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Pinina said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that - - - why do the other preferences not find it appealing to prepare in the way that Si types do?

Obviously I'm coming from the perspective of an Ni/Se so I'm innately biased--trying to figure out what's different about _you _rather than trying to figure out what's different about _me_.

But I'm only me and have only ever been me. So I don't know what's different about _me_. But I find it easy to see what's different about other people. I'm sure everyone can relate to that.


I'm going to have to think more on this. This innate preference for real-world, tangible security just puzzles me. I mean it's RIDICULOUSLY practical, I don't know why everyone isn't this way (well, most people are), but honestly ya why isn't everyone this way?

I guess we can't all be smart like you :wink:


----------



## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

emberfly said:


> I guess what I'm trying to figure out is that - - - why do the other preferences not find it appealing to prepare in the way that Si types do?


I don't like preparing or planning at all. :kitteh:

And yet, there are tons of Ni types that _love _to plan and prepare.

So, why are you saying this is a dichotomy when it isn't?

Not all Si types find it appealing to prepare, and not all Ni types find it unappealing.


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hmmmm... my post in response to @_emberfly_ post #21, and which was subsequently quoted in his post #29, seems to have disappeared. The link to it in post #29 doesn't work either.

Must be a test to see if the ISTJ notices the change.:th_wink:


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

emberfly said:


> This innate preference for real-world, tangible security just puzzles me. I mean it's RIDICULOUSLY practical, I don't know why everyone isn't this way (well, most people are), but honestly ya why isn't everyone this way?


Yeah, but it's the being ridiculously practical part that seems to piss everyone else off about STJs. That Si instinct coupled with Te logic behaves that way shouldn't be a huge surprise. I/we don't typically dispute that... and I understand why other lead combinations wouldn't be inclined to act similarly. I would just like to see others have a better understanding of our motivations, because it's sometimes painfully obvious to us that our motivations are completely misconstrued.


----------



## Sadist (May 23, 2013)

I cannot identify as anything having to do with royalty.
I've always had an innate contempt for monarchy, and statuses of 'royalty'


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Word Dispenser said:


> I don't like preparing or planning at all.


Maybe you do and you don't view it as such. 



> And yet, there are tons of Ni types that _love _to plan and prepare.


Ya this is inherent within Pi, but we're not talking about preparation _in general_--were talking about Si preparation. 



> So, why are you saying this is a dichotomy when it isn't?


It kind of is one, but not everyone fits the mold perfectly.



jcal said:


> Yeah, but it's the being ridiculously practical part that seems to piss everyone else off about STJs.


 you are so right. 

Before I knew of MBTI, I sort of _HATED_ STJs. And I didn't even know what an STJ was! Which to me is so funny.

I think, though, that if the two people from hugely different preferences about how to live their lives are aware of and accepting of the fact that the other person is _innately_ built this way that is so different from them--and that this difference isn't due to a bad childhood or anything like that :laughing: and they don't try to _change_ one another but rather just appreciate their differences. . . I think a relationship (friendship or otherwise) could be really enjoyable and beneficial for both parties and they would each glean benefit from it.


----------



## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

emberfly said:


> Ya this is inherent within Pi, but we're not talking about preparation _in general_--were talking about Si preparation.


What do you mean by 'Si preparation'?


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Word Dispenser said:


> What do you mean by 'Si preparation'?


*points to the video*


----------



## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

emberfly said:


> Ya this is inherent within Pi, but we're not talking about preparation _in general_--were talking about Si preparation.


Preparation is Te thing imo. Desire to achieve goals, be efficient, have an impact in the object world and all that jazz. This is all Te. Not much to do with Si.
Also I think meticulous and detailed planing is overemphasized for xSTJs. I definitely do not enjoy planning to such an extent. Making general plans and outlines comes more naturally and with a better result in my case.


----------



## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Cryo said:


> Preparation is Te thing imo. Desire to achieve goals, be efficient, have an impact in the object world and all that jazz. This is all Te. Not much to do with Si.
> Also I think meticulous and detailed planing is overemphasized for xSTJs. I definitely do not enjoy planning to such an extent. Making general plans and outlines comes more naturally and with a better result in my case.


You're absolutely right--I think that makes way more sense to be an STJ thing rather than an SFJ thing because this meticulous preparation thing really goes against what Fe is.

I wonder, though, how Si manifests in SFJs, then. 

(I guess I should effing re-watch the video but whatever).

I think I know how it manifests, but the second I say something you're all going to jump down my throat )


----------



## jcal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cryo said:


> Preparation is Te thing imo. Desire to achieve goals, be efficient, have an impact in the object world and all that jazz. This is all Te. Not much to do with Si.
> Also I think meticulous and detailed planing is overemphasized for xSTJs. I definitely do not enjoy planning to such an extent. Making general plans and outlines comes more naturally and with a better result in my case.


While I agree that Te is doing the planning/prepping, I think it is being uniquely driven by Si instincts in STJs, otherwise other Te dom/aux types would be just as inclined towards the same behavior.

I also agree that there are varying degrees and modes that an STJ will exhibit these behaviors, and it can be greatly affected by whatever is of particular interest/value to the individual. Otherwise, we would all behave identically, which we already know we do not. Personally, I'm not much of a planner, at least in the way most people ascribe it to STJs. I really don't ever make written lists or keep calendars. I do, however, tend to mentally prepare and rehearse processes ad nauseum... always trying to find the potential weak spots and devising ways to correct them.


----------



## Zen Lizard (Dec 28, 2013)

I have to admit this type grouping is intriguing. If it's really socionics, then perhaps it's time for me to read up on socionics. I never bothered before because frankly it seemed baffling. Then again, MBTI must appear the same to the completely uninitiated with all it's introverted and extroverted letter labels.


----------

