# Aeropress a philosophical discussion on coffee brewing



## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

So I am a weirdo about coffee.
I buy high rated beans and such.
I have been drinking primarily french press coffee because I like it's density and body.
I recently got an aeropress because I have been curious about it for sometime and it's relatively inexpensive.

I made the coffee the way the manual said to and it was good.
However it's missing that kick I get in a french press - specifically the body feels light.

I looked up different methods and approaches to brewing with the aeropress.
Essentially what I ran across was people using it like a french press calling for more course grounds and letting the beans be immersed for longer periods of time.

What I noticed is that when you make the beans coarse the water simply flows right past the filter and that would mean that pushing with the plunger would be completely pointless as there is no pressure. You'd basically get french press coffee that is passing through a paper filter. It seems to completely defeat the purpose of using an aeropress to begin with as the concept is to push water with pressure though beans like espresso.

Anyhow I just made this thread because I figured there is some weirdo on this forum who knows more about coffee than I do and they want to learn more.

I am searching for a good method where I get:
1) Not a ton of beans needed
2) Using pressure
3) Good body, less bitter, and bringing out the sugars of the beans.

Science me.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

I don't think you should be changing the grind size for an aeropress. As you said, too coarse a grind and the water just passes right through, too fine a grind and the water won't pass through at all. There is a small window of grind sizes that you can do for espressos/aeropresses but I don't recommend experimenting with that first, each beans' size will cause you enough hassle with grind sizing already.

So: use a size that will allow the water to pass through, probably the recommended size. The grind size should be small enough that after you aeropress it, you should see a crema- a thing circle of oil on top of your cup.
--
The body of the coffee comes from the density? of the coffee, the amount of oil, and the extracts you get out.

1. Coffee density:
brew method- espresso, french press, turkish coffee, drip coffee, moka pot, more beans
*Getting an espresso machine will be your fastest and most expensive way to get what you want.*
You can go back to french pressing your coffee.
You can use a moka pot, which doesn't provide as much pressure as the aeropress and might make your coffee more bitter, but iono. Haven't researched this method enough, so it's a possible solution but probably not the solution you want.
You can use grind a little more beans per cup. We're talking 14g vs 17g of coffee per cup. Using 3g more coffee will net you denser coffee. There is a limit though. Again, the water won't pass through if you use too much.

2. The amount of oil:
*Get a metal filter for your aeropress*. Paper filters filter better but also stop some of the oil from passing through. The side effect is that your coffee will be a little sooty from the particulates that pass.
*Try another roast level. *The darker your coffee, the easier it will be to extract the oils, but also the more bitter it will be. You will also get different flavors. If you're buying "high rated beans" you're likely buying a light/medium roast. Coffee connoisseurs highly rate coffee that is complex and fruity, and these coffees tend to have less of a body. This doesn't seem to be to your taste.
*Try another varietal/origin/farm.* You can't get a good cup of coffee from bad beans, and beans vary wildly. Unless of course, you're dumping cream and sugar into it.

3. The extracts you get out:
*Try another varietal/origin/farm.* You can't get a good cup of coffee from bad beans, and beans vary wildly. Unless of course, you're dumping cream and sugar into it.
You can try lengthening the brew timing. Different extracts for different flavors at different timings. Too long and you will extract the bitter flavors though.
You can raise the temperature of your brew. Different extracts are taken out of the bean at different temperatures. You will also get more extracts by brewing at higher temperatures. Since you're probably using a medium-dark roast, that means you will also be extracting more of the bitter flavors. Whatever you do, please don't brew with boiling water.

Hope this helps.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> I don't think you should be changing the grind size for an aeropress. As you said, too coarse a grind and the water just passes right through, too fine a grind and the water won't pass through at all. There is a small window of grind sizes that you can do for espressos/aeropresses but I don't recommend experimenting with that first, each beans' size will cause you enough hassle with grind sizing already.
> 
> So: use a size that will allow the water to pass through, probably the recommended size. The grind size should be small enough that after you aeropress it, you should see a crema- a thing circle of oil on top of your cup.
> --
> ...


Ah thanks for entertaining me.
Coffee is a worthy of overthinking lol.
My hero was the INTP from breaking bad who made perfect coffee but was killed - bastards.

Anyhow to some of the things you've mentioned.
1) I don't think the cup of coffee I made is bad, I just want more body and more sweetness.
2) I am in fact using light/medium roast - I do prefer this roast to the darker ones. I actually was using 14g so good guess.
3) I have used the moka pot in addition to french press - I prefer the french press.
4) Mentioning crema made me come across this video:




The thing I found most interesting was that he pushed quickly and also that finer grain didn't mean more crema.
5) I have used two water temps: 175 and 204 degrees.

One day I will consider an expresso machine but I often find it to be sour lol.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> Ah thanks for entertaining me.
> Coffee is a worthy of overthinking lol.
> My hero was the INTP from breaking bad who made perfect coffee but was killed - bastards.


Never watched it but I did look up a clip. Right after he serves the perfect cup of coffee, he mentions the beans he used were from Sumatra. So of course, I had to look up the flavor profile of some of beans from that area.

"Sumatra coffees are famous for their peculiar flavor profile, low acidity, thick body, and rustic flavors that can often be described as earthy. Much of the flavor comes from the way Sumatras are processed, the wet-hull method, not to be confused with wet-processed coffee. "








Sumatra Kerinci Tujuh Cooperative


15% discount automatically applied at checkout. Lighter roasting brings out flavors of sorghum and rice syrups, caramel, barley tea, dark honey, a subtle berry hint and finishing flavors of pungent cocoa and burnt sesame seed. City to Full City. Good for espresso.




www.sweetmarias.com




And indeed many of them feature lots of body. Kind of peculiar that the people from breaking bad chose Sumatra, as I think Guatemala Gesha lots are the best coffee and many others would agree, but hey wouldn't be brewing it drip like the people in the movie, so it doesn't look as impressive. You might want to consider trying coffee from Sumatra or South America if you're looking for body. (That site I linked is mostly for green coffee and is in California, so finding something local would be better)



> Anyhow to some of the things you've mentioned.
> 1) I don't think the cup of coffee I made is bad, I just want more body and more sweetness.
> 2) I am in fact using light/medium roast - I do prefer this roast to the darker ones. I actually was using 14g so good guess.
> 3) I have used the moka pot in addition to french press - I prefer the french press.
> ...


If you truly prefer light/medium roasts, then you might not like your cup to be full-bodied? As far as I know, you can only get bright clean cups from light roasts. Roasting the beans darker brings out the "body" in it. I still recommend a medium roast if body is what you're looking for.

I admit I don't know why a finer grain didn't produce more crema. It might have something to do with the pressure? He used so little water for each cup.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> Never watched it but I did look up a clip. Right after he serves the perfect cup of coffee, he mentions the beans he used were from Sumatra. So of course, I had to look up the flavor profile of some of beans from that area.
> 
> "Sumatra coffees are famous for their peculiar flavor profile, low acidity, thick body, and rustic flavors that can often be described as earthy. Much of the flavor comes from the way Sumatras are processed, the wet-hull method, not to be confused with wet-processed coffee. "
> 
> ...


Yeah I know there are some weird nuances to my preference haha.
There are the beans I am messing with: Wush Wush - Equiano Coffee

The beans I dig are known as bright but of course I have been french pressing them which is a less "clean" style than something like pour over or even moka pot. I am more or less going for a slightly strong (not highly watered down) americano style of coffee.

I want it to be cleaner than french press so I will be sacrificing some body and oil but I still want to maintain punch and body while maximizing sweetness.
I don't want it to become like cup of keurig - watered down and weak and without body.

So I figured I could make a concentrate like an espresso and dilute to preference.
Your crema comment helped because I found that video and it did help me make a solid very espresso like shot and now I get to mess with dilution.

My gf decided to make a latte (not a purist lol) with hers and it was good, could still tell it had coffee in it and with no sweetner added (even in the oat creamer she used) it was still sweet and had good flavor so it's a big step in the right direction


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> Never watched it but I did look up a clip. Right after he serves the perfect cup of coffee, he mentions the beans he used were from Sumatra. So of course, I had to look up the flavor profile of some of beans from that area.
> 
> "Sumatra coffees are famous for their peculiar flavor profile, low acidity, thick body, and rustic flavors that can often be described as earthy. Much of the flavor comes from the way Sumatras are processed, the wet-hull method, not to be confused with wet-processed coffee. "
> 
> ...


Check it out I found this video.




at 5:47 he echo'ed what you said about the roast.
Basically says you need to use a lower dose to extract from a light roast and if you don't you'll have: 
Sour, harsh, under extracted, weak, thin bodied sadness lol.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> Check it out I found this video.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good video, he probably knows his stuff. Side point: his intro was a pleasant tangent.

I think when he mentions roast level, he most likely means a difference between medium and medium-dark rather than light and medium. I haven't looked into studying espresso, but some guys on reddit think that light-roast espresso can be done. They're mentioning a combination of using more beans, more brew time, and lower pressure— of which I'm not sure which would apply to Aeropress.

And uh, he's not echoing me, I'm echoing them  My coffee knowledge is just an amalgamation of random people on the internet.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> Good video, he probably knows his stuff. Side point: his intro was a pleasant tangent.
> 
> I think when he mentions roast level, he most likely means a difference between medium and medium-dark rather than light and medium. I haven't looked into studying espresso, but some guys on reddit think that light-roast espresso can be done. They're mentioning a combination of using more beans, more brew time, and lower pressure— of which I'm not sure which would apply to Aeropress.
> 
> And uh, he's not echoing me, I'm echoing them  My coffee knowledge is just an amalgamation of random people on the internet.


Sorting through info to find what is most important and true is a process you can take credit for.
It's kind of like creating art - you pick up things you like here and there and combine to create your own.
I am sure those random people got information from random people.
So you can take credit


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

I used 15 g (less than the 18 g on the crema video).
Traditional method of aeropress vs. the inverted method.

First batch had a more coarse grind = came out sour and weak. (underextracted)
Then I switched to the finest grind = came out bitter. (overextracted)
Everything else was the same. 
Also since I used the regular instructions the water was at 180 which maybe too cold and not extract enough.

I think I'll just keep it at 200 degrees next time and use less coffee... 14 g.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> I used 15 g (less than the 18 g on the crema video).
> Traditional method of aeropress vs. the inverted method.
> 
> First batch had a more coarse grind = came out sour and weak. (underextracted)
> ...


While you're not an espresso machine, I'm thinking you have a somewhat consistent pressure you apply. Even if you chose to exert more force, that might just result in you pushing the water through faster. Hence, an aeropress+you should be quite similar to espresso machines.

The video did say the coffee puck won't have too much room dosage changes, and the same should be for the aeropress. I'm not sure what setting you use for your grinder, but I think it would be good to only change the grind sizing by a minuscule amount every time. For instance, if the recommended grind sizing is Fine-4, it might be good to only try out Fine-5 and Fine-3 to start with.

If you're still using the same beans, you'd likely still get coffee that is inclined to be sour/fruity. The last time I brewed stuff from Ethiopia, I get a result that tastes wholly different than other coffees. Pleasant, but I got tastes of what's exactly on the bag: melon, blueberry, citrus


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> While you're not an espresso machine, I'm thinking you have a somewhat consistent pressure you apply. Even if you chose to exert more force, that might just result in you pushing the water through faster. Hence, an aeropress+you should be quite similar to espresso machines.
> 
> The video did say the coffee puck won't have too much room dosage changes, and the same should be for the aeropress. I'm not sure what setting you use for your grinder, but I think it would be good to only change the grind sizing by a minuscule amount every time. For instance, if the recommended grind sizing is Fine-4, it might be good to only try out Fine-5 and Fine-3 to start with.
> 
> If you're still using the same beans, you'd likely still get coffee that is inclined to be sour/fruity. The last time I brewed stuff from Ethiopia, I get a result that tastes wholly different than other coffees. Pleasant, but I got tastes of what's exactly on the bag: melon, blueberry, citrus


My thought process is I want to use a finer grind which increases the waters contact with beans.
If I use a finer grind it would allow the water to stay in the aeropress easier which would also increase the contact time as opposed it dripping out prematurely. It would also allow me to use less coffee.

I had two shots and I may go for 3 or 4 in the name of science.
😂

The coffee was definitely not sour when I had a finer grind, it was bitter.
It still was close to want I want.

I am using this to modify:








The Coffee Compass


Use our free Coffee Compass online application for tasting brewed coffee. Use it as a blueprint for your experiments with coffee flavors.




www.baristahustle.com





Coming from a french press I have definitely made astringent coffee prior, and that was with Ethiopian beans.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

So I am disappointed. 
I bought these new double walled coffee cups a long time ago (over a week).
I bought new coffee which was supposed to be here today but seems to now be delayed (high rated for espresso).

Cups won't be here until Monday.
Beans might not get here today.

The good news, I got a Stagg Kettle and it is badass.
Getting water to the right temp was sort of a pain in the ass with a microwave and thermometer.

Cranking out coffee has been easier with the Kettle.

Also I experimented some more.
Did a regular french press coffee like I typically do and then I pressed it through the aeropress which resulted in a clean and strong coffee - this is essentially what I see them doing with it anyway as they brew inverted.

Coffee game is strong right now


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> So I am disappointed.
> I bought these new double walled coffee cups a long time ago (over a week).
> I bought new coffee which was supposed to be here today but seems to now be delayed (high rated for espresso).
> 
> ...


Looking forward to you enjoying what you brew up. Did you buy a blend or single origin? Oftentimes, the roasters that do blends taste are aiming for a certain flavor profile and so will substitute different beans seasonally. When I get around to it, I'll be trying the different blends my local roasters make. I just like coffee from one particular region way too much .

Since you may be filtering out most of the grinds, yeah I would see how the water would flow better. I do wonder if you still get the smoothness from the pressure you exert from the Aeropress, but I can definitely see why it'd taste better- you have a filter on the end.

A friend of mine roasted some Ethiopian coffee from a convenience store in pretty much unlabeled bags. I've been to the store, so I can confirm the owner is from Africa, and he's probably has a legit contact from that region, but the coffee quality might vary a ton since it is unlabeled and unverified. This past week I've been trying a different setting every day doing pour-overs using 12-18g and adjusting grind size when necessary (Past 16g for me makes the water stop flowing using medium-finefine) but I couldn't get anything good out of it.

The coffee compass has been the basis for adjustments, thank you for linking it. I'm afraid since his coffee was unevenly roasted to medium, it's either heady, grassy, or lacks body. Good on the sip, disappointing when swallowed. I'm glad your coffee is good though.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> Looking forward to you enjoying what you brew up. Did you buy a blend or single origin? Oftentimes, the roasters that do blends taste are aiming for a certain flavor profile and so will substitute different beans seasonally. When I get around to it, I'll be trying the different blends my local roasters make. I just like coffee from one particular region way too much .
> 
> Since you may be filtering out most of the grinds, yeah I would see how the water would flow better. I do wonder if you still get the smoothness from the pressure you exert from the Aeropress, but I can definitely see why it'd taste better- you have a filter on the end.
> 
> ...


Well I hadn't responded because I hadn't tried the new beans until this morning.
These are the beans I bought: 





404 | Red Rooster Coffee


Red Rooster is a Virginia-based coffee company roasting only the highest quality beans from around the world.




redroostercoffee.com




It's a blend.

I did this one in the regular method suggested by the video on crema.
Oddly enough I didn't get a lot of crema but I believe that is because I didn't stir or press fast enough.
In terms of flavor I can't say I tried the concentrate much, I made an americano.

I am a bit at a loss, I found it enjoyable but I don't which way to tweek it.
The compass is pretty solid, I am glad it's helping you tweek.
I found this bean to be less sour than the other beans I was using. It wasn't overly bitter but this more more nutty and clearly darker. It's definitely a different flavor, has more of a coffee aftertaste.

Funny thing is once I got a very expensive bean - geisha.
I noticed that the coffee aftertaste was virtually non-existent, almost like an IPA which was also very high rated that I had in the past.

I think I will keep the recipe the same next time and adjust water temp to see if it has an impact.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

At 11:20 he starts an interesting concept on extraction based on your grinder.
"Uneven extraction from different particle size would manifest in two different ways: unpleasant bitterness and unpleasant sourness."

"Tiny pieces = bitterness"
"Course pieces = sourness"

That could help explain how you could be in two areas of the coffee compass at the same time.

Fun story is I have his winner which is the porlex but I have the large version, odd part is the porlex isn't even cheap anymore. I got mine for like 30 bucks and now I see it's over 70.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> At 11:20 he starts an interesting concept on extraction based on your grinder.
> "Uneven extraction from different particle size would manifest in two different ways: unpleasant bitterness and unpleasant sourness."
> 
> "Tiny pieces = bitterness"
> ...


I currently lack the brainpower to watch the rest of the video, but I did watch a bit of the portion at 11:20. I have the grinder in the middle and I no longer use it since I have an electric grinder. Some Bartagaza Virtuoso. Forget which model.

I'd doubt it would be the grinder's fault the pieces are of different size, I would rather guess that it's because the person who roasted the coffee for me did it wrong. Roasting in different methods affects the density of the bean, and I know it was unevenly roasted by the outside coloring. He built his own roaster. Thanks for sharing.

Will watch and amend this post tomorrow.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> I currently lack the brainpower to watch the rest of the video, but I did watch a bit of the portion at 11:20. I have the grinder in the middle and I no longer use it since I have an electric grinder. Some Bartagaza Virtuoso. Forget which model.
> 
> I'd doubt it would be the grinder's fault the pieces are of different size, I would rather guess that it's because the person who roasted the coffee for me did it wrong. Roasting in different methods affects the density of the bean, and I know it was unevenly roasted by the outside coloring. He built his own roaster. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Will watch and amend this post tomorrow.


The more and more I learn about coffee the more I continually come across the grind being one of the biggest keys to good coffee, based on the prior post I guess it makes sense. I delved into the world of espresso and manual hand grinders after that video. My poor Porlex grinder was disrespected but I did get it for 30 bucks years ago so whatever.

I realized that I am essentially a weirdo. I am seriously contemplating getting an expensive grinder and if I like the results I may go for a manual espresso machine 🤣 it'd probably take me like 5 minutes to make a single cup of espresso but it's also super badass to make something special and have complete control. I've read a lot of people that are really content with their aeropress when they couple it with good grinders so that is likely my starting point.

I have experienced a lot of sour yet bitter cups of coffee and I really do think it's related to the grinder. It's been highlighted more by the aeropress, I think with the french press: sour was never really an issue - the issue was it'd be either pretty good or astringent with sediment. The sediment was what was pushing me towards wanting to try a aeropress to begin with.

I've had "cleaner" cups with the aeropress because the grinder does better with smaller particle size and of course the filter.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

Oh wait. Do forgive me please

[Edit] Sorry forgot to reply yesterday. I finished the rest of the video but don't have anything more to say about it. I did kinda skip hand grinders after having used one for a week. It was just more comforting and convenient to use an electric grinder.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

NT the DC said:


> The more and more I learn about coffee the more I continually come across the grind being one of the biggest keys to good coffee, based on the prior post I guess it makes sense. I delved into the world of espresso and manual hand grinders after that video. My poor Porlex grinder was disrespected but I did get it for 30 bucks years ago so whatever.
> 
> I realized that I am essentially a weirdo. I am seriously contemplating getting an expensive grinder and if I like the results I may go for a manual espresso machine 🤣 it'd probably take me like 5 minutes to make a single cup of espresso but it's also super badass to make something special and have complete control. I've read a lot of people that are really content with their aeropress when they couple it with good grinders so that is likely my starting point.
> 
> ...


Over on r/coffee on reddit, a common thing they say to new people is to first get a good grinder. I tend to agree, after all, good coffee is built upon having good beans, a good grind, and a proper method.

I think grinders more or less top off in quality at around a hundred dollars. For espresso machines, my cousin bought himself a Flair Espresso Maker. It made a decent cup, but since the force-transferring-parts are too simple, I was wondering if the weaker pressure makes it less good. He eventually bought himself a very expensive broken retro manual espresso press and fixed it up himself. I looked it up, and it costs a thousand dollars, but the coffee he makes out of it is SO GOOD. 

The cleanest cups come out of pour-overs, but it sounds like you don't quite know what sort of coffee you want yet. Might still be a good idea to get a local coffee shop to get you coffee brewed with the different methods.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

NT the DC said:


> So I am a weirdo about coffee.
> I buy high rated beans and such.
> I have been drinking primarily french press coffee because I like it's density and body.
> I recently got an aeropress because I have been curious about it for sometime and it's relatively inexpensive.
> ...


I'm interested only because I'm lazy and just use a 4 cup drip brew coffee maker and I like Dunkin coffee. 

Come at me brah...


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> Over on r/coffee on reddit, a common thing they say to new people is to first get a good grinder. I tend to agree, after all, good coffee is built upon having good beans, a good grind, and a proper method.
> 
> I think grinders more or less top off in quality at around a hundred dollars. For espresso machines, my cousin bought himself a Flair Espresso Maker. It made a decent cup, but since the force-transferring-parts are too simple, I was wondering if the weaker pressure makes it less good. He eventually bought himself a very expensive broken retro manual espresso press and fixed it up himself. I looked it up, and it costs a thousand dollars, but the coffee he makes out of it is SO GOOD.
> 
> The cleanest cups come out of pour-overs, but it sounds like you don't quite know what sort of coffee you want yet. Might still be a good idea to get a local coffee shop to get you coffee brewed with the different methods.


Yeah I am a bit torn, I think flair depends on lots of preparation and dedication to tweeking things.
I've read about the pressure and it seemed to suggest that the pressure with pumps and press is different - it's really the output that makes something espresso or not with regards to crema, soluables in liquid, brew temp, temp out of the machine/serving temp. Flair was able to hit those parameters.

The dude I have linked a couple times said his initial cup was similar to what you'd get in a Breville Infuser - the mid tier but said that he could see how you could refine it to make it rival very expensive machines. 

I am unsure if it'd make more sense to get a flair, some sort of breville like the bambino, or to scour the internet for a great deal on a very expensive machine. I actually saw a 3k machine on sale for 500 bucks with a 1k grinder tossed in recently - but it was too much counter space for me.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

Alright I figured I may as well share my conclusions lol.

Here is the aeropress recipe I decided I enjoyed.
It makes a cup of coffee, not americano - not dense... it's clean and bright but not watery.

Measure 14 g of coffee.
Grind: it's ground between espresso and between french press, you may have to tweak with this a bit.
Kettle set for 198 degrees
Inverted method with plunger about as low as it goes
Pour the 198 degree water over the beans in a pour over fashion making sure to rotate the aeropress and immerse beans in the process
Pour until reaching 200g (usually ends up being around 7oz of water) .. of course zero out scale that already has beans and aeropress on it prior to pouring water lol.
After you are done pouring water set a timer for 1 minute
Next take a chop stick and stir until you see bubbles form - usually just a couple good stirs
Wet the filter with some left over kettle water
When about 10 seconds is remaining stir it a little more and put the top on
Place the cup on top of the aeropress and flip over the aeropress and cup as one to avoid spillage 
Press that puppy for about 30 seconds all the way through.

I used Ethiopian beans for mine.
Also I bought an espresso machine - breville espresso express, used... it's a whole other world 


I think I may buy a flair espresso press for home though, I love measuring stuff and being exact... harder to do with the automatic machines I am finding.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

So I am guilty of splurging on things I don't need.
I bought a commandante grinder after reading about how important it was to have a good coffee grinder.

I did notice a significant difference in the consistency of the grind.
When I brewed aeropress the disc would have the smaller fragments on one side of the puck and the other side would have bigger fragments. I still see it with the commandante grinder but to a lesser degree.

The coffee was extracted exactly the same as the other grinder and it did taste a bit more "even".
Less bitter and or sour notes, but I don't know that it's astonishingly different lol.

I'll try a different grind setting - started with "25 clicks" 

Continually getting closer to manual espresso pressing.
I have gotten decent at Breville in the office, make some pretty good americanos right now.


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## secondpassing (Jan 13, 2018)

On my part, I've been watching a lot of James Hoffman recently. He makes lots of good content.

I shipped myself a bag of coffee from this coffee subscription. It's either they messed up the order, or their usual standards for shipping are too low. I got a bag of coffee from Saints. They roasted it on 11/23, my order was processed on 11/27, but the bag didn't get to me until 12/5 (it was expected to get to me on 12/1). That's kind of unacceptable. They should be shipping it the day after roasting so the coffee would just degas in transit (you wouldn't even need to seal the coffee bag at this point) or they should have done something else.

Surprisingly, though the coffee was older than I wanted, it very much did taste of wild cherry and apple juice as they have claimed. A very fruity coffee. Not sure what they meant by "fortune cookie" taste though.

I could be getting bags from Coava, but I don't really want to have to pay shipping every single time. So I've finally put an order for an air roaster. I just have to pick out which green coffees to get from Sweet Marias. Good to hear you've been making good americanos. What a joy.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

secondpassing said:


> On my part, I've been watching a lot of James Hoffman recently. He makes lots of good content.
> 
> I shipped myself a bag of coffee from this coffee subscription. It's either they messed up the order, or their usual standards for shipping are too low. I got a bag of coffee from Saints. They roasted it on 11/23, my order was processed on 11/27, but the bag didn't get to me until 12/5 (it was expected to get to me on 12/1). That's kind of unacceptable. They should be shipping it the day after roasting so the coffee would just degas in transit (you wouldn't even need to seal the coffee bag at this point) or they should have done something else.
> 
> ...


It's funny because I have ordered the expensive coffee, but I also went to a grocery store and got some of their beans and it still came out decent in an americano. The worst was using starbucks beans because they're burnt to all that is holy. Super bitter, it's no wonder you have to use cream and sugar to nullify it.

I like Hoffman too, haven't seen much lately though as I have just been messing with it manually.


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## NT the DC (May 31, 2012)

It's been a while and I've experimented some more so I figured I would add some findings.


I have been brewing with an espresso maker for sometime now.
I still use primarily the aeropress at home and have the espresso maker at work

I use the method I listed above for aeropress - inverted, 14g coffee, 198 degree water, filled until 200g of water, stirred briefly to fully immerse grounds, timed for a minute, then flipped and plunged. The only thing I'd add is: Don't push the plunger all the way through unless you want more bitterness... which I'll expand on here.

So the real reason I wanted to post is because I have begun to mess with espresso drinks and in the process found out some stuff about espresso.

I have tried to make an americano at work and they come out pretty solid iced.
I basically take 18g of beans and pull a 36g shot.
I'll pour that in a cup of ice and then I'll put hot water from the spout with about as much water as the crema line was at, mix it around to capture as much crema residue as I can and pour it into the cup. Mix it around some more and boom - iced americano.

However I brought the machine home for the long weekend and messed around with different techniques.
What I did illuminated a weird discovery.

I wanted to eliminate the transfer from one vessel to the glass because in the process I lose crema.
So I first started with putting ice in a cup and pulling the shot directly onto the ice, then adding hot water on top.
The result was bitter and not great, iced bitter-cano.

Then I pulled a shot directly into the glass and added water into the same cup, no ice this time.
No crema left behind.
I used about 4 oz of water ...directly from the spout (which is very hot).
The result?
Very hot bitter-cano.

I didn't think it was a lack of water because I didn't really get any sweetness from the shot.
But I pull shots consistently so I know it's not technique related.

I dove into it and came across an article which talked about:
- The Americano vs The long black

In reading I found that they talked about how the spout water is way too hot and destroys the espresso in americanos.
I also read how the long black was preferred because of the retention of crema.

I figured this was the solution to my Americano problems, but then I ran across a video from my hero James Hoffman again as I was trying to find what he thought the ideal "long black water temp" was but instead I found a video on how to make a better americano. His advice?

SCOOP OFF THE CREMA.

That sounds sacrilegious, the whole point of espresso is the beauty of crema.
But he said in the video that crema looks beautiful but it's actually really bitter.

Then the light bulb went off ....
That must be why the direct pull method I tried at home was so bitter to me.
No crema was lost in the process which lead to a more bitter cup!

However I read an article which talked about how crema is really what gives the body and volatile compounds to it.
They likened it to whiskey and I thought that was a good analogy.
That bitter kick is what gives it balls so it's likely not smart to lose all of it.

So anyway I found an article that said a long black is best when you don't use super hot water but more like:
100 ml of water that is about 160 then pour the shot into it... which reminds me of aeropress - the original method of brewing.

Had I not come across the info of crema being bitter I'd have been inclined to pull the shot directly into the glass with water but instead I pulled it into a shot glass and poured it into the water knowing I'd lose crema in the process.

The result: A pretty damn good cup. Balanced sweetness and bitterness and a decent mouthfeel. A solid long black.

If you want it more bitter and more like a stiff drink do what you can to minimize crema loss.
If you want your aeropress more bitter push all the way through the end.

I really don't think there is good way to make an americano with spout water because it's too hot.
I do think the long black method using a slightly cooler and controlled water helps retain the sweetness of the shot.
I also like the long black method more because like a beer with head the head/crema gets stuck to the glass.
With an Americano the crema gets more mixed into the drink leading to more bitterness, plus it looks more appealing with a head.


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## dchaox (May 8, 2021)

I tried Aeropress before, it was okay, still went back to buying in store coffee lol


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

I like coffee but I'm not a obsessive about it. There was one time where I was kind of becoming a coffee fanatic but rescued myself from a life of thumbing my nose up at all the lesser coffees most people drink. 😛

Although I will say that when you've had a good, well pressed coffee, it does become more difficult to switch back to office drip coffee.

Here's some science about coffee:









Is There a Link Between Coffee and High Cholesterol?


Coffee may raise cholesterol, but this depends on how you brew it and how much you drink. Read on to learn more.




www.healthline.com


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