# Is the West ready for host clubs?



## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

A Japanese host club is where women go for paid male companionship. It may lead to sexual intercourse, but this occurs outside the establishment at the host's discretion. These men aren't like the gigolos or male strippers that you find in the West.

A few years ago, I watched a documentary _*The Great Happiness Space: Tale of an Osaka Love Thief*_, which features interviews of workers and the customers. I'm mean really, the place is like a _Chuck E. Cheeses_ for adult women. The mood is giddy and sometimes innocent. It's all meant to make the female customer feel like a princess, except the slot machine is their liver and the tokens are the drinks. The clubs primarily make their money on the sale of drinks. As one host says during the documentary, "I think my liver is fucked." That health issue worries him the most, more than his stalkers.

Recently, I read an article, Trying to Explain “Host Clubs” to Western Men. The articles highlights the difference in the reaction between Japanese men and Western men on the issue of host clubs. The reaction/interest from Japanese women and Western women was the similar. This suggests that the attitudes of Western men might be what's holding back the establishment of host clubs in the West.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is something akin to host clubs in the West?


My reaction was not the typical male reaction. I thought it was fascinating:


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

The incredible part of that documentary is that the women themselves who are patrons to the men in those clubs are in fact prostitutes.

I wonder if it's the same for male jigalos


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> The incredible part of that documentary is that the women themselves who are patrons to the men in those clubs are in fact prostitutes.


Lol. Some of the customers are prostitutes. But to be fair, some of those women work a regular job during the day then go out at night as paid female companions or prostitutes. Since prostitution is illegal in Japan, there are many services that don't involve sex. In fact, these women compete with services previously offered by geishas. Geishas aren't really prostitutes. Geishas are required to have extensive training in conversation and performance art. There was a bit of cultural mislabeling by American GI's during WWII in which regular prostitutes were mistaken for geishas. The men working in the host clubs are more like geishas in the male form.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Ohhhh, this is interesting. More people need to comment so I can observe


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Lol. Some of the customers are prostitutes. But to be fair, some of those women work a regular job during the day then go out at night as paid female companions or prostitutes. Since prostitution is illegal in Japan, there are many services that don't involve sex. In fact, these women compete with services previously offered by geishas. Geishas aren't really prostitutes. Geishas are required to have extensive training in conversation and entertainment. There was a bit of cultural mislabeling by American GI's during WWII in which regular prostitutes were mistaken for geishas. The men working in the host clubs are more like geishas in the male form.


Every woman in the video was a prostitute or worked for what's called a Soap company otherwise known as fukuzi (sp?). It isnt always full on sex but it is sexual foreplay. You did see the documentary right? They are the only ones that can afford the clubs extravagant costs. (up to 5 grand a night for some)


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> Every woman in the video was a prostitute or worked for what's called a Soap company otherwise known as fukuzi (sp?). It isnt always full on sex but it is sexual foreplay. You did see the documentary right? They are the only ones that can afford the clubs extravagant costs. (up to 5 grand a night for some)


Your use of "every" is hysterical. The documentary didn't quite dive in the background of every customer. Some of the repeat customers may be in the "water trade", but some of the hosts are tasked with attracting new clients off the streets. It may be a novelty to some women and others might use their services infrequently. This contributes to overall flow clients through the door.

Also, they make money off drinks. Not everything in the bar costs $5k. One host claims that he will service a customer even if she spends very little. He might receive a good referral.

You might be having the typical Japanese male reaction from the article: Why would a normal woman visit a host club?



> Rather, Japanese men with whom I talked about my work never perceived me as a sexual being/object. Instead, the bulk of the attention shifted away from me to the hosts: Japanese men tended to look down on the hosts. For instance, I often got into the situation where Japanese men would, politely but teasingly, ask if such a ‘trivial’ thing could be considered worthy of academic research. Some asked if my work was just an ‘extension’ of my hobby. Others said that a person like me, who is educated, should not be visiting host clubs. Knowing full well how hosts are treated in the Japanese media, I rather expected such comments from Japanese people. Yet, I cannot recall any Japanese men who suddenly began to treat me as a sexualized being. Moreover, women, whether Japanese or from elsewhere, tended to be either greatly interested in my work or utterly indifferent. In general, women seemed much more interested in the hosts themselves, and a number of Japanese women, even my relatively conservative mother , asked to accompany me when I went a host club.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Haha, I very highly doubt it.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

You're right actually now after recalling what you just stated about dragging in customers for referrals. However in the world there are only 1 to 2% male prostitutes in comparison to women sex workers. From that it can be established women have no problems getting attention and affection unlike guys. Male strip clubs are not the same but conversely the playboy club in chicago was a similar place for women to act like the hosts in Japan. I highly doubt our culture will indoctrinate host clubs. You have to also understand that Japan has one of the lowest rates o sexual intercourse in comparison to other first world nations.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)




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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> From that it can be established women have no problems getting attention and affection unlike guys.


AH! This is the key. You deny that the need even exists in West. It is best to bring up some key questions.


*1. *Are western women *completely satisfied* with the men they attract?

*2.* Are they getting the kind of attention and affection *they want* from the kind of *men they like*?

*3.* Will a typical host, considered to be the most charming and handsome among men, normally expend his *time and energy* on the *average woman*?



My opinion:

If there is ever a slight *no* then there is an opportunity for a *service* to be provided.

I don't believe that a western man who might do well as a host is normally out there providing this service for free to every woman he meets. You have to admit that there is scarcity and that women have problems getting what they want from men. As women become more financially independent, these services ought to become more available. Someone only has to respond and surmount the obstacles.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Palaver said:


> AH! This is the key. You deny that the need even exists in West. It is best to bring up some key questions.
> 
> 
> *1. *Are western women *completely satisfied* with the men they are capable of attracting?
> ...


Well, tell ya what, you put down the capital and I'll run the business, toute suite! /claps


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> Well, tell ya what, you put down the capital and I'll run the business, toute suite! /claps





Hey! I'm the one selling the idea.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

Palaver said:


> It's all meant to make the female customer feel like a princess...


Yes, because we don't have enough princesses around already, am I right?

...

Anyway, how does getting drunk = Cinderella anyway? Distilled illusions ftw! IMHO, we have enough places in the West focused on drowning peoples lives away as it is already. We really don't need another. It'd be great to have a place open up that'd get people to treat each other with actual dignity and respect though. You know, when they're still sober enough to notice it. >_>


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

why not have host clubs for men too. they could feed you grapes, give you a massage and make you feel like a king. hell, I'm gay and I'd go to one =P


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

GoodOldDreamer said:


> It'd be great to have a place open up that'd get people to treat each other with actual dignity and respect though. You know, when they're still sober enough to notice it. >_>


Got plenty of those, matter of fact however being that most people don't care for those establishments but rather stick to the alternatives. People create their own misery after all.


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## R2-D2 (Mar 6, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> Every woman in the video was a prostitute or worked for what's called a Soap company otherwise known as fukuzi (sp?). It isnt always full on sex but it is sexual foreplay. You did see the documentary right? They are the only ones that can afford the clubs extravagant costs. (up to 5 grand a night for some)


it's not just prostitutes or women in the sort of business you're talking about. a friend of mine has told me about a friend of hers who often frequents host bars in south korea (where the concept is the same), and she's just an average woman. then again, she's also married to a millionaire. not sure if he knows what she spends her money on when he's not around.


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

I'm ready for a host club!! Send them over!


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

kangaroo said:


> it's not just prostitutes or women in the sort of business you're talking about. a friend of mine has told me about a friend of hers who often frequents host bars in south korea (where the concept is the same), and she's just an average woman. then again, she's also married to a millionaire. not sure if he knows what she spends her money on when he's not around.


 If she frequents them, someone is bleeding somewhere.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

GoodOldDreamer said:


> Yes, because we don't have enough princesses around already, am I right?


You would begrudge our royalty their fantasy? Will host clubs do the greater society any harm?



> It'd be great to have a place open up that'd get people to treat each other with actual dignity and respect though. You know, when they're still sober enough to notice it. >_>


What do think host clubs are for? The hosts will cater to those emotional needs.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Tawanda said:


> I'm ready for a host club!! Send them over!


Send for them? Don't you like American boys? They could use the work.


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## R2-D2 (Mar 6, 2010)

Palaver said:


> Send for them? Don't you like American boys? They could use the work.


hahahahaha :laughing:


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Send for them? Don't you like American boys?


no 



> They could use the work.


yes


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> why not have host clubs for men too. they could feed you grapes, give you a massage and make you feel like a king. hell, I'm gay and I'd go to one =P


Lol. I'd be gay for a day just receive that kind of service.

Funny you mention that. My Arab friend lamented to me just the other night while we were at a club. Why isn't there a place where you can get a beautiful woman to just sit on your lap and feed you grapes while enjoying a pleasant conversation. Is that so much to ask for??? Between bars, night clubs, hooka lounges, and strip clubs, you can't find that kind of service. It's mostly get in, get drunk, get horny, and get out.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Lol. I'd be gay for a day just receive that kind of service.
> 
> Funny you mention that. My Arab friend lamented to me just the other night while we were at a club. Why isn't there a place where you can get a beautiful woman to just sit on your lap and feed you grapes while enjoying a pleasant conversation. Is that so much to ask for??? Between bars, night clubs, hooka lounges, and strip clubs, you can't find that kind of service. It's mostly get in, get drunk, get horny, and get out.


seriously, most of the bars, clubs and such are absolutely disgusting. we need more European influence or something (in the mean time, we could teach them about productivity lol)
PS: actually, the point is that it would be for straight men who wanted to get treated like a male lion who was the leader of a pride, it's just that I would enjoy the attention and pampering even without the sexual arousal part.


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## Fleetfoot (May 9, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Send for them? Don't you like American boys? They could use the work.


Tehe, I mean the concept. I'm certainly not picky. They only way I discriminate with men is if they have STDs or not (and age...and attractiveness...I'm shallow).


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Palaver said:


> AH! This is the key. You deny that the need even exists in West. It is best to bring up some key questions.
> 
> 
> *1. *Are western women *completely satisfied* with the men they attract?
> ...


Another question to add to your list. . .

Would the western women be willing to pay for this service?

Personally, I wouldn't.
So what if the answer to your questions is 'no'. How is me using your service going to change anything?
So I buy one night's worth and then back to reality. . . 
Yeah right.


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

I just don't see a real need for this. Most women can get what they want for free if they just shop around. And to an extent many guys out there will treat you how you want if they think you have something you'll give them. 

If a woman has five grand to blow a night on a joint like this I promise you she can find the same type of service cheaper in the real world. In other words, consider a cougar situation. I doubt those women have to spend 5k a day on their companions/playthings.

If we wanted to get really technical, you could pay a guy as low as it would cost him to get an equal lay. It's like an indirect way of dating. Normally where a guy would be nice to you for a chance to sleep with you - you are just paying him for his "nice" time and guaranteeing him the money to get the lay from someone else. Clubs like these aren't popular here because the need really isn't there for women aside from a sliver of the percentile.

It is just not difficult to get a man to pretend they like you for a day. No reason to pay for it. I'm not even going to go into the obvious issue that most women look for a chance at real love not just a cheap date, or as is this case not even cheap.


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## Eerie (Feb 9, 2011)

I'd never pay for companionship. Seems really ridiculous. Yes I'm satisfied with my "western" man. He's the best.


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## Rhee (Aug 15, 2010)

Palaver said:


> Send for them? Don't you like American boys? They could use the work.


To be honest I really can't quite see American males playing the role of these 'hosts.' My own perception of American culture might be flawed but this is the way I see it, with my limited knowledge on host clubs in South Korea and Japan: 


*1) Being a host is about servitude.* 
Paid companionship in this sense is not merely a simple commercial transaction. These men literally 'serve' their female clients. While this doesn't necessarily mean being submissive, what it does imply is a fundamental inequality in status in their relationship with the client. I'm not sure how well this interpersonal dynamic would sit with modern American individuals (in a culture that celebrates equality and individualism, how many people would truly be comfortable with the idea of offering and buying "personal servitude"?)


*2) Yep, the cultural gap.* 
As the article in the OP mentions "a host club is not a place to participate in any sexual conduct. It is a space reserved only for the production and consumption of fantasy.... Yet this ambiguity can be hard for Americans to understand." 

Also stated is the opinion that the US sex industry is predominantly oriented to selling 'penis penetration' while in Japan, the generation and sale of 'fantasy' plays a much more important role. I concur in that Americans may not see the point in buying non-sexual activities at such a high price. 

This isn't because 'Westerners lack the ability to appreciate the subtle art of conversation' or some such bullsh*t. Well-educated, highly trained artisans who provided witty conversations for the wealthy have existed in both East and West (Japanese geisha, Korean gisaeng, high courtesans of Renaissance Europe.) 

Japan and Korea however have continued to keep in touch with this part of their old culture by way of modern 'business entertainment.' Business deals are sealed over alcohol and female companionship. I frown on it, many people dislike it, but that's the way it goes in this part of the world. 

Japanese and Koreans hosts will be more adept at 'selling the fantasy' precisely because they're directly or indirectly more familiar with how it's done. American males may have something of a struggle with the concept or its execution, not necessarily because they're more sexually aggressive or lacking in subtle finesse, but because nothing in their culture would've prepared them for doing something like this. 





Swordsman of Mana said:


> why not have host clubs for men too. they could feed you grapes, give you a massage and make you feel like a king. hell, I'm gay and I'd go to one =P


As a matter of fact, those already do exist.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks Rhee. You just made this thread a whole lot more interesting.



Rhee said:


> To be honest I really can't quite see American males playing the role of these 'hosts.' My own perception of American culture might be flawed but this is the way I see it, with my limited knowledge on host clubs in South Korea and Japan:


That may just be an issue of branding--of burying any negative connotations of the word "host".



> *1) Being a host is about servitude.*
> 
> I'm not sure how well this interpersonal dynamic would sit with modern American individuals


Hmm. Is this what you also believe? All employment is a form of servitude--some more than others. I see a host as being socially dominant, being more in control of the situation. Some men love and practice this art with women (the pickup artist).

I suppose it all depends on the kind of host that the female customer demands. Groveling or debonair? We can't predict which will dominate until American patrons make their selection.

We must also compare being a well groomed host to other form of male employment--like physical laborers. Which gives him more status?




> *2) Yep, the cultural gap.*
> As the article in the OP mentions "a host club is not a place to participate in any sexual conduct. It is a space reserved only for the production and consumption of fantasy.... Yet this ambiguity can be hard for Americans to understand."
> 
> Also stated is the opinion that the US sex industry is predominantly oriented to selling 'penis penetration' while in Japan, the generation and sale of 'fantasy' plays a much more important role. I concur in that Americans may not see the point in buying non-sexual activities at such a high price.


Lol. In my opinion, Japan has everything, including much 'penis penetration'. Why, however, is the U.S. more limited? Much of it is not for women. You say it is a lack of understanding. Isn't this the result of having a lack of options or exposure?




> This isn't because 'Westerners lack the ability to appreciate the subtle art of conversation' or some such bullsh*t. Well-educated, highly trained artisans who provided witty conversations for the wealthy have existed in both East and West (Japanese geisha, Korean gisaeng, high courtesans of Renaissance Europe.)


We share similar sentiments on American culture, but to me American culture isn't so intransigent. It also shouldn't matter how we personally rate the "class" of entertainment, so long as it remains responsive to demand. Japanese host seem quite capable of being crass if the situation or the customer demands it. American hosts can very much innovate and veer off in their own direction. They might very well have something to teach hosts in other countries. roud:


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

kristle said:


> I just don't see a real need for this. Most women can get what they want for free if they just shop around.


From the gist of your post, you greatest worry is money or price.

What was the success of big box marts and malls?

Was it their price? No, if you shop around hard enough you can always find an item cheaper somewhere else. A few cheap items only serve as the lure. The success of big box marts was their variety and selection. Malls are really just amusement parks made amiable to material consumption.

Host clubs can create their own demand in much the same manner and add variety, competition, innovation, and social acceptance that might otherwise languish in individual enterprises. Where can engage in a group interaction with hosts? 

A host club shouldn't really be just about _the_ host, just as a store isn't really just about the products.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Rhee said:


> As a matter of fact, those already do exist.


where? I want to visit one ^_^


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## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

Palaver said:


> From the gist of your post, you greatest worry is money or price.


No, you're missing the whole point entirely. In order to have a product sell, there has to be a need (demand) for it. When there are men giving away your product for free, everyday that take next to no hassle to find then you are not going to sell your product. 

You might easily find women that are unsatisfied with their partners or love life, but this product doesn't fill it either. In fact, it's an even worse deal. Aside from the financial pitfall, it is a guarantee of no future or potential to grow and improve. That does not satisfy most women, and the few interested in a short term romance most likely want sex not talk. 

Surely I don't have to point out the fact that a friend-zone guy can fill any talk and no sex need out there. It would be insane to pay up to 5k for this when most of us have plenty of guy friends that do it without us asking. It's not just the money it's the idea that it's so rare and valuable that we have to trade money in order to have it provided to us. That's just unrealistic.

I can kind of go with the ideas mentioned that in the cultures where hosts are popular it goes with their culture. Their women are more submissive and subservient in general meaning a host allows them to escape the confines of their society. They can be the one getting served and in charge. Western women are not confined like this. We don't relate.

The issue is most Western women either want hot sex or a romantic relationship with potential. A host offers neither AND costs a good amount for what I see to be a cheap service.

Anyway, that's why I don't think they'll catch on here in their current form. Women have a hard enough time as it is sorting through men pretending to be something they're not, and cheating us out of a long term possibility. I just don't see us adding onto that issue by paying someone to do it to us, but then again maybe that's just me.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

I read details in the book, Confucius lives next door that there's been a growing rift between the sexes in Japan, with both men and women becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the other (mostly due to the clash of old gender roles with new romantic expectations and the rise of fantasy culture). This is shown by a steady increase in the % unmarried population. 

Japan is ripe for a host club, but there isn't the same level of underlying dissatisfaction in America.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

@kristle has said what I would if I could articulate it.

Also, you could have a permanent toy-boy for less.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

kristle said:


> No, you're missing the whole point entirely. In order to have a product sell, there has to be a need (demand) for it. When there are men giving away your product for free.


I'm don't see where I'm missing the whole point entirely. I'm framing it differently. $0 vs $1000 is a difference of price. Anyway, you've placed a vertical demand curve at zero--which in not realistic in my opinion. :happy: 




> You might easily find women that are unsatisfied with their partners or love life, but this product doesn't fill it either. In fact, it's an even worse deal.


Here are your reasons against the idea of host clubs.

Subjective.
1. I can get it for free (no scarcity)
2. I would rather spend my money on other goods and services (cost).
3. My male friends provide the same variety and quality of companionship (value).

Objective.
1. Only subservient/submissive women are interested in host clubs (???).
2. Western women only want exclusive long term relationships or cheap sex (???).
3. Host clubs defraud women (???).

You've wielding quite large hammer against the idea. This would be the most hostile reaction to host clubs. But host clubs aren't for all women, just as male strippers and gigolos aren't for all women. We need a better idea of what a western host club might offer before making subjective statements about their service. It's not so much a product as it is a marketplace. You objective claims also confuse me for that it is a business (_caveat emptor_) that aims to provide something of a different variety or a higher quality.

Haha, you could've helped me by addressing the key questions I have about the viability of host clubs in the west. (Based on the article, I thought western men were with obstacle.)

*1. *Are western women *completely satisfied* with the men they attract?

*2.* Are they getting the kind of attention and affection *they want* from the kind of *men they like*?

*3.* Will a typical host, considered to be the most charming and handsome among men, normally expend his *time and energy* on the *average woman*?


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> I read details in the book, Confucius lives next door that there's been a growing rift between the sexes in Japan, with both men and women becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the other (mostly due to the clash of old gender roles with new romantic expectations and the rise of fantasy culture). This is shown by a steady increase in the % unmarried population.
> 
> Japan is ripe for a host club, but there isn't the same level of underlying dissatisfaction in America.


I read in The Economist that drop in the marriage rate in Japan is linked to financial instability among the younger generation, which put pressure on women to become more financially independent. Whatever social malaise emerged from those economic conditions.

I disagree your comparison of U.S and Japanese marriages. The U.S. has major issues with marital satisfaction--a far more unstable landscape. This Huffpost article is chalked full of links and observations.
Who's Happier: Single Or Married Women?


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Palaver said:


> *1. *Are western women *completely satisfied* with the men they attract?
> 
> *2.* Are they getting the kind of attention and affection *they want* from the kind of *men they like*?
> 
> *3.* Will a typical host, considered to be the most charming and handsome among men, normally expend his *time and energy* on the *average woman*?


Could you explain how these questions are relevant?


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Palaver said:


> I read in The Economist that drop in the marriage rate in Japan is linked to financial instability among the younger generation, which put pressure on women to become more financially independent. Whatever social malaise emerged from those economic conditions.
> 
> I disagree your comparison of U.S and Japanese marriages. The U.S. has major issues with marital satisfaction--a far more unstable landscape. This Huffpost article is chalked full of links and observations.
> Who's Happier: Single Or Married Women?


Interesting. I'll need to modify my argument. 

I'll pose a theory. The problem is the rise of fantasy culture. Just as pornography provides an unrealistic standard for sex, perhaps there are shows and fictions (such as twilight, for example), that provide vicarious fantasies for women that real men can't live up to.

I haven't got any statistics, but I've heard hundreds of reports of relationships being broken off because the men don't measure up to Edward Cullen.

Let's pretend that this "Cullen" craze seeps deeper and deeper into the female consciousness. One could only assume that host clubs that present such an "experience" would have a market to exploit.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

Personally, the whole thing is depressing.
I can't understand what people want.
Let the West have 'em if they want 'em,
but it's just so sad.

I have the exact same outlook concerning
strip clubs.

(Don't worry, I know the host clubs aren't
strip clubs. Doesn't help their cause with 
me, though)


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