# Unpatriotic Friend: Why does it bother me?



## BoomerGirl (Apr 10, 2014)

I know this girl, she's my friend, who doesn't particularly care for America. (We live in America) The truth of the matter is she likes Japan a whole lot better and I'm okay with that. It's her life, I'm not saying I'm right or she's wrong, it just is what it is. I've never been much of a patriot in my life anyway so it's weird that it's bothering me. She gets on kicks about talking about Japan and how it's 'so much better' and crap. I nod my head and agree with her. Most of what she says I truly do agree on, but, it always leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth. Sometimes, I feel like if we were in a war against Japan she'd side with them, which makes me slightly uneasy. Enough about that, what I really wanna know is why it's bothering me so much. Does anyone have an idea? I feel so confused right now.


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## Mr. Demiurge (Jun 18, 2014)

Maybe because, in criticizing America, she's implicitly criticizing just about everything you're surrounded by and have grown up with, including the things you strongly identify with? I guess that could be it. 

Incidentally, your friend should be aware that she wouldn't be the first westerner to become a raging japanophile only to move to Japan and get a cold splash of reality. Japan is a place with good qualities and bad qualities, like any other.


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Probably more like she won't shut up about liking something you have no idea about.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

For me, a lack of patriotism is rather grating because in 99% of the cases the person has a distaste for America for very petty, poorly understood reasons. It is often a sign of immaturity and group think. Perhaps contrary group think of a kind, but group think none-the-less. That said, I find the opposite just as grating, though perhaps more sympathetic, in a sense. I can appreciate someone who loves their country, but I am going to think of them as less intelligent if they can't be bothered to understand their country for the good _and ill_ it does. 

If you are going to be loyal to your nation, do so for prudent reasons. Such as understanding its culture and the benefits that brings. Do so because you want to safeguard that culture so that you and your descendants can continue to enjoy it. Don't love your country just because you were born there.


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## Mr. Demiurge (Jun 18, 2014)

Perhaps your friend's future in a few years.


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## BoomerGirl (Apr 10, 2014)

Lord Shang said:


> Perhaps your friend's future in a few years.


Hahahah. It's possible. Also, sometimes she talks about stuff in Japan that I know way more about than she does (Rarely) and I just stare at her like she's got two heads. Because it's not even partially true.


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## Hurricane Matthew (Nov 9, 2012)

When people hate on a country and act like some other country is "omg the best evar", I feel like throwing up. It doesn't matter what countries are being talked about because the person is usually only focusing on the negatives of one country and idealizing the other past a point of it making any sense. I don't think it is a matter of patriotism or not being patriotic... it's merely delusional. When it comes to Japan, people are blinded from thinking it has any flaws because they love anime and manga, which is a really dumb reason to be so in love with a country but whatever. I used to have a friend who wanted to move to Japan someday and looking back, maybe she only became friends with me because my heritage and because she was a weaboo obsessed with anime crap ((had a Japanese username online and everything)). From my point of view, I think those people are a bit of an embarrassment, and actual Japanese people tend to think those people are stupid.

Japan isn't that great. I'm half Japanese and my mom's family emigrated from there for many reasons. For example, if you think racism in the US is bad, Japan is way worse. You can't even get citizenship there unless both parents are 100% Japanese. I have a relative in Japan who is half Japanese and half Korean, and because she is half Korean she can't get a passport or anything to leave the country as she is not a "citizen" despite being born and raised there: she is just stuck there forever without any recognition from the government ((receives no citizenship rights)). Ainu and Okinawans are also treated like shit. It is also a fairly xenophobic country. Japan also has an extremely high rate of teen suicide because of the intensity and pressure of school there, and adults or overworked... I have an aunt in Japan suffering from some health issues ((I forget what they are exactly)) because her job as a secretary is too intense and calls for her to not eat very much to stay skinny. Japan is also insanely crowded in the cities and cost of living is very high. My Japanese family members who have left Japan don't regret anything and have been happier since leaving.

A lot of people who are madly in love with Japan like that do so because of the anime and video games they play being from Japan, and I think those people are idiots, personally. Japan has some nice aspects, about as many as any other country, but it certainly isn't spared from having an ugly side.

You don't have to worry about the US going to war with Japan, though. The two countries are allies and if anything happens in that part of the world, the US would jump in to assist Japan and South Korea in a heartbeat.


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Lord Shang said:


> Perhaps your friend's future in a few years.



haha, pretty funny.

I've lived in other countries, including one in asia. Being a foreigner in most places is intoxicating, at least at first. And hell, it is a better fit for some. But I've learned that unless someone shows a genuine interest in your travels, no one really cares past, "oh that's cool."


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## sassysquid (Jul 16, 2014)

Sourpuss said:


> For me, a lack of patriotism is rather grating because in 99% of the cases the person has a distaste for America for very petty, poorly understood reasons. It is often a sign of immaturity and group think. Perhaps contrary group think of a kind, but group think none-the-less. That said, I find the opposite just as grating, though perhaps more sympathetic, in a sense. I can appreciate someone who loves their country, but I am going to think of them as less intelligent if they can't be bothered to understand their country for the good _and ill_ it does.
> 
> If you are going to be loyal to your nation, do so for prudent reasons. Such as understanding its culture and the benefits that brings. Do so because you want to safeguard that culture so that you and your descendants can continue to enjoy it. Don't love your country just because you were born there.


Very nicely articulated. I was thinking this too but could not word it. I could not agree more.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Has your friend been to Japan? I've lived there, and I find a lot that annoys me about it. To me, it sounds like her idealization either comes from naivete, or else she's native and can't really adapt to the USA.

I'm American, I have plenty of gripes with my country, but I share your sense of frustration. When I travel abroad, people are quick to criticise my country, and to be honest, that's just rude. Like imagine if French people came to America and some random stranger started arguing with them that their country is full of "surrender monkeys" or something. How discourteous is that?

I also don't have much sympathy for people who willingly move to / visit another country only to criticise it. It's like, you're living the life that someyone else would die for, and all you're going to do is whine about how it's not like it is back home? Really? You're not gonna try a new perspective, just criticise?? I think it shows some sort of intolerance and sense of cultural superiority; I personally find things to hate in every country, including my own, but bitching about it repeatedly to another person of that culture is, to me, the height of contemptability.

Then, there are those people in the USA who've never been outside the country who idolize life in other countries. They are naive idiots. Life everywhere basically sucks and things aren't "much better" anywhere else. My sister was like this, claiming Dutch society is more liberal about drugs and sex, and therefore superior to America. I guarantee if she ever moves to the Netherlands she'll find cliquish, discriminatory, small-minded people there. (Shit, I was probably that stupid at her age too.) It just looks wannabe-ish and is inherently annoying.

Anyway, I think you're annoyed with your friend for one of the three reasons above. Any thoughts?


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

I agree with what other people have mentioned in this thread. I think it's very easy to idealize some foreign country because some of the problems in it aren't visible to you until you actually live there. I do want to discuss something @The Typeless Wonder brought up.



The Typeless Wonder said:


> I'm American, I have plenty of gripes with my country, but I share your sense of frustration. When I travel abroad, people are quick to criticise my country, and to be honest, that's just rude. Like imagine if French people came to America and some random stranger started arguing with them that their country is full of "surrender monkeys" or something. How discourteous is that?


This kind of attitude can be so bad that some Americans pretend to be Canadian when they travel abroad. A lot of people outside the U.S. seem to dislike America. As an American, I am very aware that many foreign people dislike my country. When I hear Americans complaining about how much the U.S. sucks, it can be incredibly exhausting. I don't want to discourage people from thinking about the problems of our country because I think that approach is overly jingoistic. But sometimes I just need a break from hearing people talking about how awful America is all the time.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> I agree with what other people have mentioned in this thread. I think it's very easy to idealize some foreign country because some of the problems in it aren't visible to you until you actually live there. I do want to discuss something @The Typeless Wonder brought up.
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of attitude can be so bad that some Americans pretend to be Canadian when they travel abroad. A lot of people outside the U.S. seem to dislike America. As an American, I am very aware that many foreign people dislike my country. When I hear Americans complaining about how much the U.S. sucks, it can be incredibly exhausting. I don't want to discourage people from thinking about the problems of our country because I think that approach is overly jingoistic. But sometimes I just need a break from hearing people talking about how awful America is.


The funny thing is, it's worst in European countries. European countries where health care is provided, public transportation is accessible to all, and some form of actual social security still exists. European countries that once ruled the world, whose governments still economically enslave Africa, and who wiped out the indigenous people in our own country. Yes, those people.

The ones in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, East Asia, all accept it and are friendly. When I lived in the Arab Gulf, most people were happy when I said I was American..."I LOVE America!!" they'd tell me. "I want to study there one day!" For once, I was eager to share my nationality. In the Arab Gulf ffs.

What's also funny is that the Americans who DO travel abroad are likely to be the ones who are open-minded and MOST likely to share similar gripes about their country. So, they're basically picking on the wrong people.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> The funny thing is, it's worst in European countries. European countries where health care is provided, public transportation is accessible to all, and some form of actual social security still exists. *European countries that once ruled the world, whose governments still economically enslave Africa, and who wiped out the indigenous people in our own country. Yes, those people.*
> 
> The ones in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, East Asia, all accept it and are friendly. When I lived in the Arab Gulf, most people were happy when I said I was American..."I LOVE America!!" they'd tell me. "I want to study there one day!" For once, I was eager to share my nationality. In the Arab Gulf ffs.
> 
> *What's also funny is that the Americans who DO travel abroad are likely to be the ones who are open-minded and MOST likely to share similar gripes about their country. So, they're basically picking on the wrong people.*


It's perceptions of who's in a better economic position, that's why. If you think about it, ME, SA and EA are less economically developed than America, so they get wide-eyed and lustful about it.

However, those who are in sort of the same position do not need to be wide-eyed. I think you are severely misunderstanding why Europeans cannot stand Americans. It's the bloody arrogance. A lot of Americans come over, they let us know how much they run shit, and Europe is such a tiny insignificant place. And they don't understand how we drive on the other side of the road etc. It's implicit in the first bolded sentence of yours. That, "how can this loser Europe have done so many things like that? Like how the hell did they manage to rule the world? What the hell?" vibe, of course you are going to put off most Europeans. Why should they have to listen to that?

Another thing about America is that because social inequality is more recent in their country's history, they come over here and keep bringing up things Europeans, for the most part, have long gotten over. So when they continually bring it up, it's seen as being discourteous, and rightly so. It's really rude to talk about things like that here, and when you tell them, they accuse you of dismissing it, or brushing it under the carpet. Okay, but like seriously, NO ONE talks about it. So why should they be forced to? 

The ones that do not do this are accepted right away.

To the last bolded bit: this has not been my experience at all.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@DaphneDelRey

I haven't actually traveled abroad, but I have heard that Americans can sometimes get very negative attitudes from people in other countries. I think that the people who have mentioned this thing usually went to Europe. I'm not sure why those people got negative attitudes from people in Europe, but they often report that people immediately disapproved of them once they heard they were American. Other Americans hear about this issue and want to just enjoy their travels without that kind of hassle, so a lot of people pretend to be Canadian when they go abroad. In terms of perceptions, Europeans might think Americans are arrogant, but Americans often think that Europeans dislike them. I suspect that neither is absolutely true.

I find it interesting that people from Arab areas in the Middle East could like America so much since America has been involved in more conflicts with that part of the world lately. Maybe it does have something to do with the economic differences you mentioned.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Show her the documentary "The Cove" and then tell her to stfu.

Hint: The Japanese government in some areas lets kids eat dolphins which results in mercury poisoning. It's in their school food.

No really, let her like Japan...who cares as long as you like where you live. There is a lot of slamming of the United States going on, while I love to travel, there is no other place I rather live.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

TurtleQueen said:


> @_DaphneDelRey_
> 
> I haven't actually traveled abroad, but I have heard that Americans can sometimes get very negative attitudes from people in other countries. I think that the people who have mentioned this thing usually went to Europe. I'm not sure why those people got negative attitudes from people in Europe, *but they often report that people immediately disapproved of them once they heard they were American*. Other Americans hear about this issue and want to just enjoy their travels without that kind of hassle, so a lot of people pretend to be Canadian when they go abroad.
> 
> I do find it interesting that people from Arab areas in the Middle East could like America so much since America has seemed to have more conflicts with that part of the world lately. Maybe it does have something to do with the economic differences you mentioned.


It's the arrogance that was outlined in The Typeless Wonder's post to be honest. They carry a VERY strong air of "how the fuck do you guys survive this way?" vibe. Like Europe's "socialism" isn't good enough for America, when America is ridiculously riddled with inequality.

I have a hard time getting along with Americans because of that. However, there's an even bigger disdain for Americans in England's 'High Society' (aka Upper Classes) because of ignorance and intolerance. Americans are said to be loud, boisterous, too gungho for the Uppers who prefer to have a very 'stiff upper lip' and haughty approach to life.

This "reality TV" show called 'Ladies of London' depicts it beautifully. The disdain is NOT exaggerated at all. You should really watch an episode if you have the time here: Ladies of London Episode 1

edit: changed episode, got it wrong sorry.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

TurtleQueen said:


> @DaphneDelRey
> 
> I haven't actually traveled abroad, but I have heard that Americans can sometimes get very negative attitudes from people in other countries. I think that the people who have mentioned this thing usually went to Europe. I'm not sure why those people got negative attitudes from people in Europe, but they often report that people immediately disapproved of them once they heard they were American. Other Americans hear about this issue and want to just enjoy their travels without that kind of hassle, so a lot of people pretend to be Canadian when they go abroad.
> 
> I find it interesting that people from Arab areas in the Middle East could like America so much since America has been involved in more conflicts with that part of the world lately. Maybe it does have something to do with the economic differences you mentioned.


True there is lots of disdain for the Americans in Europe, it's quite silly. Went to Italy and Greece last summer, it's more the British and the Germans. We had a blast though! The British (some) look at Americans as nouveau riche, how snobby can you get? Lots of superiority complexes in Europe that are pretty hilarious. Although, I love Europe <3, the history, the cultures everything! Not to mention my mother was born in England, father born in Greece so I feel European in a sense, but am an American 
One Greek lady was talking about Americans and how they are always laughing and smiling...like that was a bad thing /shrug. Probably because they are on vacation!??


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

SweetPickles said:


> True there is lots of disdain for the Americans in Europe, it's quite silly. Went to Italy and Greece last summer, it's more the British and the Germans. We had a blast though! *The British (some) look at Americans as nouveau riche, how snobby can you get? Lots of superiority complexes in Europe that are pretty hilarious.* Although, I love Europe <3, the history, the cultures everything! Not to mention my mother was born in England, father born in Greece so I feel European in sense, but am an American
> One Greek lady was talking about Americans and how they are always laughing and smiling...like that was a bad thing /shrug. Probably because they are on vacation!??


I completely agree, Old Money is the ONLY money as far as they're concerned. Sorry you had to experience that :/


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@DaphneDelRey

It's rude to go into some foreign country and act like you are better than the people who are there. I don't think that all American travelers are arrogant, however.

@The Typeless Wonder did point out some "issues" with Europe that could come across as condescending to a European. Some people (including Americans) like to think that Europe is automatically better than America in every single way because Europe has more equal health care and a social security system that seems to work better for people. She even agreed that those aspects of European countries were better than things are in America. Some Americans act like Europe can do no wrong. I think other Americans might react against that and want to point out how Europe isn't perfect all the time. I agree that it's rude to "point out problems" to random Europeans when you're traveling in their country. The original post in this thread was about someone who was annoyed that her friend acted like Japan was some wonderful place that was completely better than America, so I think @The Typeless Wonder was still coming from that mindset.

Driving on the other side of the road is different from what people in the U.S. are used to doing. Nobody should come into your country and act like it's the wrong way to do things, but I think some of the "how do you drive on the other side of the road" stuff could have been meant as a joke. I think that most people in the U.S. are very familiar with the fact that people in the U.K. drive on the other side of the road, so people see it as a slightly interesting cultural difference that they can turn into a small joke.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

TurtleQueen said:


> @_DaphneDelRey_ It's rude to go into some foreign country and act like you are better than the people who are there. *I don't think that all American travelers are arrogant, however.*


I agree, I hope my post doesn't imply I think this?



> @_The Typeless Wonder_ did point out some "issues" with Europe that could come across as condescending to a European. Some people (including Americans) like to think that Europe is automatically better than America in every single way because Europe has more equal health care and a social security system that seems to work better for people. She agreed that aspect of Europe was better than America. Some Americans act like Europe can do no wrong. I think some Americans might react against that and want to point out how Europe isn't perfect all the time. I agree that it's rude to "point out problems" to random Europeans when you're traveling in their country.
> 
> Driving on the other side of the road is different from what people in the U.S. are used to doing. Nobody should come into your country and act like it's the wrong way to do things, but I think some of the "how do you drive on the other side of the road" stuff could have been meant as a joke. I think that most people in the U.S. are very familiar with the fact that people in the U.K. drive on the other side of the road, so people see it as a slightly interesting cultural difference that they can turn into a small joke.


I can take a joke, believe me, but I think you are misunderstanding that the people making these jokes are NOT joking, they are being condescending. I'm not a fan of jokes that involve putting others down or criticising things and I don't see any European wanting to tolerate it either. It appears that this might be the American way of joking, but it's not seen as so in Europe. It's quite offensive to constantly put people down all the time as a "joke."

The same way sarcasm is just normal banter over here and in America, it's seen as not polite. If that makes sense?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

DaphneDelRey said:


> It's perceptions of who's in a better economic position, that's why. If you think about it, ME, SA and EA are less economically developed than America, so they get wide-eyed and lustful about it.


Yes.



> However, those who are in sort of the same position do not need to be wide-eyed. I think you are severely misunderstanding why Europeans cannot stand Americans. It's the bloody arrogance. A lot of Americans come over, they let us know how much they run shit, and Europe is such a tiny insignificant place. And they don't understand how we drive on the other side of the road etc. It's implicit in the first bolded sentence of yours. That, "how can this loser Europe have done so many things like that? Like how the hell did they manage to rule the world? What the hell?" vibe, of course you are going to put off most Europeans. Why should they have to listen to that?


No no dear. That's completely inside your own head. YOU read that into MY post. YOU read that I was calling Europeans losers. YOU read "how the hell?" into MY post.

I, on the other hand, stated historical facts. That's all. What you just said there actually says more about the background of your own mindset than anything I actually think, and you're the one misunderstanding. I do, however, find it obnoxious that certain people in European nations are going to argue to my face about American imperialism when their own countries were doing as much just decades earlier. Did those citizens have control over that? No. Nor do I in my own country. We are all citizens, not policymakers. I personally don't think I have to be subjected to a lecture about my country when I do something like go into a shop and quietly try to buy something.

I don't know know _any_ American who actually thinks Europe is insignificant in comparison to the US. If anything, I'd think Americans would underestimate how much we really have become an empire. Most of us (white Americans, anyway) were educated knowing we come from the Great European powers and hold it as an important part of our ancestry. Most of us, likewise, are worried about the national budget and how much foolish ventures in Iraq (and by extension, military bases around the world) have contributed to this. And I don't know any American tourists who have actually gone around acting like they "run shit". Policy-makers, sure...tourists? I haven't seen it. To be frank, the only group of people I've seen indulge in such an attitude has been middle-class retired Germans.



> Another thing about America is that because social inequality is more recent in their country's history, they come over here and keep bringing up things Europeans, for the most part, have long gotten over. So when they continually bring it up, it's seen as being discourteous, and rightly so. It's really rude to talk about things like that here, and when you tell them, they accuse you of dismissing it, or brushing it under the carpet. Okay, but like seriously, NO ONE talks about it. So why should they be forced to?


I don't know any Americans who do this, tbh. I think the discrepencies in social equalities in any society frankly suck, but it would likewise be inaccurate to say that Americans have not historically had social inequality. "Rich white males" had social equality. Women, blacks, indigenous people, the poor, immigrants (sometimes even from European nations) essentially had no rights. There was always a propensity to speak to any other person simply as a person, rather than as a title (unless you were a black man in the old South, and then you had to take off your hat, step of the sidewalk, and bow, when approached by whites), but social equality was never exactly pervasive.



> The ones that do not do this are accepted right away.


Welp. Regardless of what you think about me, I can say that I've been verbally assaulted by people any time they figure out my background at all, regardless of my conduct (which is often, innocent bystander). I was very ashamed to be American for a long time, because I was frequently treated as though I was Bad and Wrong simply for existing.



> To the last bolded bit: this has not been my experience at all.


Unfortunately, it has been mine.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

DaphneDelRey said:


> I completely agree, Old Money is the ONLY money as far as they're concerned. Sorry you had to experience that :/


It's quite alright, there are people in the U.S. That have the same silly mentality. I'm not quite sure they know what old money is . Regardless, I think it's an attempt to differentiate oneself as being better, special, etc. Whatever gives people their self-esteem you know? I think all people do this in different forms. My mother and her entire side love Great Britain (as do I), went there years ago and cried when I had to leave. I get emotional like that. I also cried when I left Greece too...I just feel apart of those two countries hence my parents. I can't change how people view Americans as a whole and quite frankly I see why, it's so easy to stereotype and I see close-minded idiots everyday where I live. Are they bad people? I don't think so, they are just living their lives as they were raised. One thing I believe is that the U.S.A does not have a monopoly on stupid people, they are everywhere. We shouldn't be judged by decisions our government makes for us either...or where we were born.

Ditto to what @The Typeless Wonder said about Americans (Caucasian in particular) holding Europeans in high regard because they are an IMPORTANT part of our history.

Don't get me wrong I have seen some obnoxious American tourists, some examples, went to the Vatican and saw one girl wrapped in the American flag, then another one wearing obnoxiously short jean shorts who was not allowed inside the cathedral (follow the rules idiot) and had an older man who I'm pretty sure was her DAD taking photos of her making awkward innapropriate poses. Oh at the Colloseum, I saw this stupid American teenage girl taking selfies of herself for over 5 minutes while there were 10 other people on the same tour trying to take a picture in that particular spot (new underground tour). Her dumb parents said nothing, I almost pushed her over the edge. No one else got a chance to take pictures. I think some people may just want to go to say they have been there instead of actually learning something. Omg, another young American girl was lying on a bar table in Greece screaming "Opa" nonstop while taking ouzo shots. To each their own I guess.

I did do a faux pas myself by talking on my cell phone in a nice restaurant to my Greek father (in USA now obviously) speaking a bit loudly about all our relatives I saw and how much fun we were having. I received some looks from some British and Australians (who are now apparently posh, they used to be loud and fun). I didn't care much because me making that trip meant the world to him and he is not in a condition where he can visit. He loves Greece and swears it's the best country ever. Lots of Greek pride there and I don't blame him. Too bad about their current economic situation, it's such a shame.

Also England should really give those ancient Parthenon Elgin marbles back...what the hell? You should see the new museum in Athens! It's a crime the Brits still hold on to these, you have enough history England.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Yes. No no dear. That's completely inside your own head. YOU read that into MY post. YOU read that I was calling Europeans losers. YOU read "how the hell?" into MY post.


No I didn't, because your post says, "Yes, those people." Why would you say something like this if you weren't trying to imply something? Perhaps you should choose better wording next time.



> I, on the other hand, stated historical facts. That's all. What you just said there actually says more about the background of your own mindset than anything I actually think, and you're the one misunderstanding. I do, however, find it obnoxious that certain people in *European nations are going to argue to my face about American imperialism when their own countries were doing as much just decades earlier.* Did those citizens have control over that? No. Nor do I in my own country. We are all citizens, not policymakers. I personally don't think I have to be subjected to a lecture about my country when I do something like go into a shop and quietly try to buy something.


Every one in Europe knows the historical facts just like you do. Why do you feel the need to bring it up when I have already told you that in Europe it is seen as rude to do so?

I have not done this, but now I feel like you are being hypocritical - you don't want people to argue about American Imperialism, but you do feel like you can just bring up Europe's Imperialism as well because you like to state facts?

I have already said, that Europeans find this just as obnoxious as you do, even more so because you end your statements with "Yes, those people."



> *I don't know know any American who actually thinks Europe is insignificant in comparison to the US.* If anything, I'd think Americans would underestimate how much we really have become an empire. Most of us (white Americans, anyway) were educated knowing we come from the Great European powers and hold it as an important part of our ancestry. Most of us, likewise, are worried about the national budget and how much foolish ventures in Iraq (and by extension, military bases around the world) have contributed to this.* And I don't know any American tourists who have actually gone around acting like they "run shit".* Policy-makers, sure...tourists? I haven't seen it. T*o be frank, the only group of people I've seen indulge in such an attitude has been middle-class retired Germans.*


That does not mean they do not exist.

I'm not sure how you can say such a thing, re the last bolded sentence. Unless you start the conversation up with Germans they will NOT bring up, it is seen as rude to do so. And considering you were the first person in this thread to obnoxiously (in your own words) bring up European history, I'm not sure why you can now claim to be offended by the very behaviour you have committed yourself, and then tried to justify by saying, "well I'm just bringing up facts." You can't have it both ways.



> *I don't know any Americans who do this, tbh*. I think the discrepencies in social equalities in any society frankly suck, but it would likewise be inaccurate to say that Americans have not historically had social inequality. "Rich white males" had social equality. Women, blacks, indigenous people, the poor, immigrants (sometimes even from European nations) essentially had no rights. There was always a propensity to speak to any other person simply as a person, rather than as a title (unless you were a black man in the old South, and then you had to take off your hat, step of the sidewalk, and bow, when approached by whites), but social equality was never exactly pervasive.


Again, this does not mean they do not exist.
Okay to the rest of your comment.



> Welp. Regardless of what you think about me, I can say that I've been verbally assaulted by people any time they figure out my background at all, regardless of my conduct (which is often, innocent bystander).
> Unfortunately, it has been mine.


Well your conduct in this thread is certainly eye-opening.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@DaphneDelRey

I didn't think your post implied that all American travelers are arrogant, but I just wanted to state my own point of view. I would certainly never think it was okay to start randomly pointing out perceived problems in a foreign person's culture while I'm a tourist.

Part of it would involve the delivery of the joke and maybe some cultural differences in what people see as humorous. The way people drive on the road is a fairly minor issue, but I could see someone "pretending" to not know how British people could drive on the other side of the road and acting "surprised" about it in a somewhat sarcastic way.

If Americans act like they're too good for European "socialism" or start wanting to bring up historical issues in a country, I would see it as more obviously condescending. It would be involving criticizing national policies or national history instead of bantering about something that seems like a very specific and minor cultural difference.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

TurtleQueen said:


> Part of it would involve the delivery of the joke and maybe some cultural differences in what people see as humorous. The way people drive on the road is a fairly minor issue, *but I could see someone "pretending" to not know how British people could drive on the other side of the road and acting "surprised" about it in a somewhat sarcastic way*.


This is the behaviour I was talking about but I couldn't put it words, it's honestly really annoying.



> If Americans act like they're too good for European "socialism" or something like that, it could be seen as more condescending. It would be involving criticizing national policies instead of bantering about something that seems like a very specific and minor cultural difference.


I try to brush it off for the most part, because when I'm on the internet, I frequent American-majority sites so I'm used to it I guess, but I doubt most Europeans would be. They're really proud of their socialist roots, so any attack on it by an American would have their back against the wall for sure.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> It's rude to go into some foreign country and act like you are better than the people who are there. I don't think that all American travelers are arrogant, however.


I haven't seen this, personally. Some tourists express surprise or reluctance to do things the local way, but I've seen that around the world from people of all countries. Like in Southeast Asia, there was this British guy telling the staff they were "immoral" because there were dogs prancing around the (outdoor) restaurant. A French guy was freaking out at a cashier because there was a power outage in an internet cafe. "This would never stand in FRANCE" he declared. 

It's a normal reaction, and honestly it annoys me somewhat, but Americans aren't alone in these attitudes. I've yet to meet a traveler who literally thinks the US (or any country) has the SOLE RIGHT WAY to do things.



> @The Typeless Wonder did point out some "issues" with Europe that could come across as condescending to a European. Some people (including Americans) like to think that Europe is automatically better than America in every single way because Europe has more equal health care and a social security system that seems to work better for people. She even agreed that those aspects of European countries were better than things are in America. Some Americans act like Europe can do no wrong. I think other Americans might react against that and want to point out how Europe isn't perfect all the time. I agree that it's rude to "point out problems" to random Europeans when you're traveling in their country. The original post in this thread was about someone who was annoyed that her friend acted like Japan was some wonderful place that was completely better than America, so I think @The Typeless Wonder was still coming from that mindset.


Yeah, my point is that no country is perfect, humans are flawed, and there are cultural problems everywhere. I think the OP may be annoyed because his friend is a wannabe, or someone who doesn't want to adapt (don't know her nationality). That's it.

With the remark about imperialism, I was intending to illustrate that the pot is calling the kettle black when people criticise me about my country's foreign policy. I did a bunch of reading about world history in college, and it's like..._Hey? I DON'T need to feel guilty for being American?? OTHER nations did bad things too?_ Yep. Every nation does bad stuff.

There are plenty of great things about European nations, which is one of the reasons I will always enjoy travelling there. The social benefits I mentioned are one of them. So are the shared cultural roots, much of European history, and contemporary gifts to the world from various nations. Being habitually shouted down because of my background is one of the things I find LEAST palatable, and it may even have changed over the last few years.



> Driving on the other side of the road is different from what people in the U.S. are used to doing. Nobody should come into your country and act like it's the wrong way to do things, but I think some of the "how do you drive on the other side of the road" stuff could have been meant as a joke. I think that most people in the U.S. are very familiar with the fact that people in the U.K. drive on the other side of the road, so people see it as a slightly interesting cultural difference that they can turn into a small joke.


Well I have a friend who is American but lives in Britain. He always forgets each time he comes for a visit, but he's pretty sure that Britain actually has it right. I can't imagine any adult being stupid enough to actually insisting that different driving is WRONG, but I could see someone getting stressed out and complaining about doing it for the first time. It's actually not an easy transition to make, and is sometimes dangerous.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> *I haven't actually traveled abroad, but I have heard that Americans can sometimes get very negative attitudes from people in other countries. I think that the people who have mentioned this thing usually went to Europe. I'm not sure why those people got negative attitudes from people in Europe, but they often report that people immediately disapproved of them once they heard they were American. *Other Americans hear about this issue and want to just enjoy their travels without that kind of hassle, so a lot of people pretend to be Canadian when they go abroad. In terms of perceptions, Europeans might think Americans are arrogant, but Americans often think that Europeans dislike them. I suspect that neither is absolutely true.


That bolded part has been my literal experience, and it's the rudeness I've been railing against. I think American policy is arrogant, but I can't see most of my co-citizens actually walking around like they own the damn world. I personally would be mortified to do such a thing, and I, too, began to lie about my nationality.



> I find it interesting that people from Arab areas in the Middle East could like America so much since America has been involved in more conflicts with that part of the world lately. Maybe it does have something to do with the economic differences you mentioned.


That's what I'm getting at. Yeah, they want to earn more money. But in an ideological world, these people are hardly shouting ideology at my face. Instead, they're polite enough to tell me they like my country. In the Arab Gulf, money isn't even a problem for most citizens, so it's not the money alone. I'd buy it in most places (and I've gotten shoddy, economically-biased treatment in these places), but the Arab Gulf? I don't know.



SweetPickles said:


> Hint: The Japanese government in some areas lets kids eat dolphins which results in mercury poisoning. It's in their school food.


LOL. Well wasn't there a big controversy where they going to feed American kids pink slime a couple of years ago?



DaphneDelRey said:


> It's the arrogance that was outlined in The Typeless Wonder's post to be honest. They carry a VERY strong air of "how the fuck do you guys survive this way?" vibe. Like Europe's "socialism" isn't good enough for America, when America is ridiculously riddled with inequality.


No, I'm sorry, no. I addressed this point before, and I'll make another thing explicit, if I haven't already:

Americans get talked to this way, all the time. We get criticised just for our nationality and our nation's foreign policies. And I find it ironic in light of the above. Anytime someone wants to tell me about the abuses my country has perpetrated, I can simply point to the Congo, the Apartheid, the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, whatever. I wouldn't criticise a British, Dutch, white South African, or British traveller for these things in my country, why do I need to be subject to it in theirs? That's all. And I don't think a country's abuses make anyone a bad person. We're citizens, not policymakers. 

I'd say, however, if most Americans you've talked to have expressed similar sentiments, then they're extremely well-educated and quite probably good citizens of the world. Most Americans are quite unaware of the larger world (so are the Chinese, it's not just an American thing).



> I have a hard time getting along with Americans because of that. However, there's an even bigger disdain for Americans in England's 'High Society' (aka Upper Classes) because of ignorance and intolerance. Americans are said to be loud, boisterous, too gungho for the Uppers who prefer to have a very 'stiff upper lip' and haughty approach to life.


I can tell you as an American, I've been made to feel bad when I'm NOT loud, boisterous, and gungho. I'm quite, serious, and don't always show too much in normal conversation. Don't fit in in my culture, don't fit in in anyone else's.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

@The Typeless Wonder

I didn't think that you were intentionally trying to be condescending to Europeans in this thread, but @DaphneDelRey thought that some of your comments were condescending. @DaphneDelRey said that many American tourists can seem arrogant to Europeans, so I tried to explain my view as an American on that issue. I did try to explain the context in which you replied to me with those comments on Europe and point out that you had mentioned positive things about Europe before you started talking about the perceived negatives.

With the driving issue, @DaphneDelRey wasn't talking about Americans having to drive in the U.K. She was talking about Americans acting amazed and wondering how someone could "survive" driving on the other side of the road. I tried to explain that an American who said that kind of thing might have only been pretending to not understand the difference in an exaggerated way for comedic effect. Based on the fact that she still sees it as annoying, there might be some cultural difference in what British and American people can consider humorous that is embodied in that joke.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> No, I'm sorry, no. I addressed this point before, and I'll make another thing explicit, if I haven't already:
> 
> Americans get talked to this way, all the time. We get criticised just for our nationality and our nation's foreign policies. And I find it ironic in light of the above. Anytime someone wants to tell me about the abuses my country has perpetrated, I can simply point to the Congo, the Apartheid, the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, whatever. I wouldn't criticise a British, Dutch, white South African, or British traveller for these things in my country, why do I need to be subject to it in theirs? That's all. And I don't think a country's abuses make anyone a bad person. We're citizens, not policymakers.
> 
> ...


I don't want to get into a "who's opinion is more valid" debate because it's a really pointless argument to make considering we both have had different experiences that are both valid.

Whether or not you act in a way that deserves the verbal abuse you get does not make it right, and does not mean it doesn't happen. However, on the flip side, I think a lot of Americans come here expecting to be judged, and then do something offensive that inevitably brings out the worst in Europeans. This thread is a perfect example of that - you said something about "those people" (aka me) and then I got offended.

We can move along now.
@_TurtleQueen_ - spot on, you've hit the nail on the head.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

@The Typeless Wonder
Wasn't aware of this, I guess it was a way to save money, there are some cheaper brands of hotdogs that contain this and while it's not ideal it can't kill you...like eating Flipper. I don't think kids should be fed "pink slime". Watch "The Cove", it's disturbing and I'm not some crazy PETA person.

Anyway, back on topic, OP your friend is just proud of their country. She has the right to love Japan, even though she shouldn't be bashing the United States especially if she knows it hurts you and it sounds rude/ignorant...people are people. Try to brush it off.

If it makes you feel any better, the U.S. economy is currently doing much better than the Japanese, is she aware of this? Also, it was the Americans who helped build the Japanese economy after WWII, they emulate us in some ways. Although I do thank the Japanese for designing the Honda, the most practical car that never breaks down (you don't even have to change the oil lol jk...kind of), good gas mileage and low gas emissions too.

It's a stupid argument, unless you want to get nasty and believe me I have some nice comebacks...it won't help your friendship which I believe is more important. Let her speak her mind, I honestly think it's a sign of insecurity. I can't think of a reason why I'd be like "Murica is the BEST, your country SUCKS" unless I felt insecure or I was completely ignorant with a side of arrogance.

Let it go 

P.S. Call her today and wish her a Happy Thanksgiving


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

DaphneDelRey said:


> No I didn't, because your post says, "Yes, those people." Why would you say something like this if you weren't trying to imply something? Perhaps you should choose better wording next time.


I write from my heart. If you want to critisize wording, I could criticise yours in many ways too. You're interpreting the words "Yes, those people" as being YOU somehow, yet I am talking about the people who simply launch into me.



> Every one in Europe knows the historical facts just like you do. Why do you feel the need to bring it up when I have already told you that in Europe it is seen as rude to do so?


I am simply sharing my responses in an honest manner to something I have experienced. You feel it's rude to bring up foreign policy to someone who has no control over it? Me too! You can agree with me then that it's rude to do this stuff. You and I agree. 

Yet, I've still had experiences of people bringing my own country's misconduct up to me when visiting another country. It's rude to tell off random strangers of a foreign country for events they have no control over, right? That's exactly what I came on here protesting. THOSE people.



> I have not done this, but now I feel like you are being hypocritical - you don't want people to argue about American Imperialism, but you do feel like you can just bring up Europe's Imperialism as well because you like to state facts?


Actually, I feel like you are taking this very personally, and starting to do precisely what I was saying annoys me.

- I go to Europe.
- I tell someone I'm from the US (and I don't always use English to do it)
- Someone launches into a diatribe against me and my nation
- I report the experience on the internet and ask why I can't say the same things about European imperialism
- You get offended that I dare to bring up European imperialism

I should just forget it "because it's rude". Really? Because that's exactly what I was saying. Now a little, and unfortunate, voice in my head is thinking...they dish it out but can't take it. Is that how you want this to be? Cause I don't. I think we can agree on quite a lot here, like I said.



> I have already said, that Europeans find this just as obnoxious as you do, even more so because you end your statements with "Yes, those people."


Yes, the ones who have criticised me personally. I hoped you'd take that in context.



> That does not mean they do not exist.


OK, they may exist. I did not categorically say they did not. I comment from my own experience only.



> I'm not sure how you can say such a thing, re the last bolded sentence. Unless you start the conversation up with Germans they will NOT bring up, it is seen as rude to do so. And considering you were the first person in this thread to obnoxiously (in your own words) bring up European history, I'm not sure why you can now claim to be offended by the very behaviour you have committed yourself, and then tried to justify by saying, "well I'm just bringing up facts." You can't have it both ways.


I'm saying those Germans bossed people around. I said nothing about foreign policy. The Germans didn't actually do as much as the other nations in that regard.

I didn't claim to be offended because I wasn't really. I found it amusing, perhaps ironic. I bring up imperialism only in response to people bringing it up with me. I was sharing my experience here.



> Again, this does not mean they do not exist.
> Okay to the rest of your comment.


Yes, fair enough. However, again, I do speak from personal experience only.



> Well your conduct in this thread is certainly eye-opening.


Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about. Other than being annoyed that you read blatantly false things into my words, I was rebutting your points in an honest and straightforward manner that I actually felt was rather neutral. You can see my other comments around here for that. Definitely not trying to create more problems, just saying what's on my mind.

I'd think we're better off at this point trying to figure out _why _our cultures see each other this way and _why _we're having the experiences we do.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> @The Typeless Wonder
> I didn't think that you were intentionally trying to be condescending to Europeans in this thread, but @DaphneDelRey thought that some of your comments were condescending. @DaphneDelRey said that many American tourists can seem arrogant to Europeans, so I tried to explain my view as an American on that issue. I did try to explain the context in which you replied to me with those comments on Europe and point out that you had mentioned positive things about Europe before you started talking about the perceived negatives.


Yes, true. I find good and bad things about every country. I was definitely NOT trying to be condescending, at least no more than the individuals who brought stuff like that up to _me_. Again, I brought it up because I feel like it's the pot calling the kettle black, and she even agrees with me that skewering people over this stuff is RUDE.

I can't say what American tourists are like from a non-American perspective. I can say, however, that I really don't feel most of us are actually rude and most wouldn't do something _intentionally _rude in another country.



> With the driving issue, @DaphneDelRey wasn't talking about Americans having to drive in the U.K. She was talking about Americans acting amazed and wondering how someone could "survive" driving on the other side of the road. I tried to explain that an American who said that kind of thing might have only been pretending to not understand the difference in an exaggerated way for comedic effect. Based on the fact that she still sees it as annoying, there might be some cultural difference in what British and American people can consider humorous that is embodied in that joke.


Well to be honest I think those people are wimps and pathetic, and I think I'd agree with her there, too. I've survived a hell of a lot more than "other road driving", and people like that have my full contempt. It's a stupid joke, if it is one. Agreed. 

I felt similar annoyance when they cut internet for one afternoon and my roommate said "HOW WILL WE SURVIVE???" I suspect Americans and the driving remark would be similar to this rather than deliberately slamming another country, though.


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## TurtleQueen (Nov 8, 2014)

SweetPickles said:


> Anyway, back on topic, OP your friend is just proud of their country.


Based on the OP and what has been said in this thread, I don't know if the friend is Japanese-American or not. Many people have pointed out how some white people can start to become weaboos who are obsessed with what they think Japan is like after they have been exposed to some anime and manga.

This quote from the OP doesn't indicate that the friend has an especially deep knowledge of Japan:


BoomerGirl said:


> Hahahah. It's possible. Also, sometimes she talks about stuff in Japan that I know way more about than she does (Rarely) and I just stare at her like she's got two heads. Because it's not even partially true.


If the OP's friend isn't even Japanese-American and is bashing America because "Japan is so wonderful," she's being a lot more obnoxious than someone of Japanese descent who does the same thing.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

SweetPickles said:


> Ditto to what @The Typeless Wonder said about Americans (Caucasian in particular) holding Europeans in high regard because they are an IMPORTANT part of our history.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I have seen some obnoxious American tourists, some examples, went to the Vatican and saw one girl wrapped in the American flag, then another one wearing obnoxiously short jean shorts who was not allowed inside the church (follow the rules idiot) and had an older man who I'm pretty sure was her DAD taking photos of her making awkward innapropriate poses. Oh at the Colloseum, I saw this stupid American teenage girl taking selfies of herself for over 5 minutes while there were 10 other people on the same tour trying to take a picture in that particular spot (new underground tour). Her dumb parents said nothing, I almost pushed her over the edge. No one else got a chance to take pictures. I think some people may just want to go to say they have been there instead of actually learning something. Omg, another young American girl was lying on a bar table in Greece screaming "Opa" nonstop while taking ouzo shots. To each their own I guess.


Thanks.

I'd add, though, that a lot of tourists do that crappy stuff. I felt the same way at first..._Those Americans are sooo un-savvy...they're making me look bad!_ Then I realized that a lot of tourists do that. Some of them are Americans in America. Some of them are in my own family!! It's more of a human thing, I'm starting to think. (I personally try never to do those things).


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

DaphneDelRey said:


> I don't want to get into a "who's opinion is more valid" debate because it's a really pointless argument to make considering we both have had different experiences that are both valid.
> 
> Whether or not you act in a way that deserves the verbal abuse you get does not make it right, and does not mean it doesn't happen. However, on the flip side, I think a lot of Americans come here expecting to be judged, and then do something offensive that inevitably brings out the worst in Europeans. This thread is a perfect example of that - you said something about "those people" (aka me) and then I got offended.


OK then. Ignore my prior rebuts. Sounds like we're back on track.

I'll say I didn't mean YOU "Daphne del Ray". No way! By "those people", I meant the ones who start up that stuff to begin with, which both you and I agree, is _very rude_. I shouldn't say those things about European cultures, and they shouldn't say those things about me. Totally agree--this stuff shouldn't be part of anyone's travel experience!

I can also say, I didn't go to Europe expecting to feel judged for foreign policy (which at the time, I didn't even know about). But "those people", the rude ones, just gave me that impression. I definitely do not think you are one, since you've demonstrated that you feel it's rude to bring this stuff up yourself. I think, like I said before, our energies are better spent asking WHY people on both sides interact in this way, and how we perceive each other, and if that's even fair. Someone should start a thread.

Well let's forget this whole stupid thing. If you write back, I'm taking off for now, ttyl.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

BoomerGirl said:


> I know this girl, she's my friend, who doesn't particularly care for America. (We live in America) The truth of the matter is she likes Japan a whole lot better and I'm okay with that. It's her life, I'm not saying I'm right or she's wrong, it just is what it is. I've never been much of a patriot in my life anyway so it's weird that it's bothering me. She gets on kicks about talking about Japan and how it's 'so much better' and crap. I nod my head and agree with her. Most of what she says I truly do agree on, but, it always leaves me with a really bad taste in my mouth. Sometimes, I feel like if we were in a war against Japan she'd side with them, which makes me slightly uneasy. Enough about that, what I really wanna know is why it's bothering me so much. Does anyone have an idea? I feel so confused right now.


Because patriotism is a dumb and useless mindset that is socially instilled in people to prevent them from leaving their country behind. An invent made in older times to stop people from getting out of their place to help the enemy of their current nation.

People usually say religion has no room in the 21st century and that it's an obsolete idea, I think thats the case of patriotism.


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## Sourpuss (Aug 9, 2014)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> Because patriotism is a dumb and useless mindset


Dumb? Debatable. Useless? It's not at all useless. If it were it would not be so commonly employed by not just governments, but any group which seeks to ensure loyalty. Patriotism can be re-branded as anything since it is really just another word for "loyalty". Be it loyalty about a country, a family, sports team, political party, religion, or activism. 

It has it uses, though it is a double-edged sword. Such is the nature of the mob.


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## Mr. Demiurge (Jun 18, 2014)

TurtleQueen said:


> If the OP's friend isn't even Japanese-American and is bashing America because "Japan is so wonderful," she's being a lot more obnoxious than someone of Japanese descent who does the same thing.


I think the reverse. Someone who makes loud pronouncements about how superior another culture is comes across as considerably more obnoxious if they're actually from the culture in question. 

To give an example, who would be more obnoxious? A Japanese person in Japan who wants to live in the United States and continually views American culture with rose colored glasses, or an American in Japan who constantly points out to everyone how much better his own country is? 

The first is just deluded. The second is a complete ass.


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

I don't usually like that sort of attitude,
Simply because I do not enjoy people who can't at least 'experience' the world they live in,
And take it for what it is,
Which is unique and with flaws,
Like any other country and culture.

In the end,
People who always think the grass is greener elsewhere generally annoy me,
As they have some sort of complex that needs to place some cultures and values below others,
Which I am wholly against!


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Sourpuss said:


> Dumb? Debatable. Useless? It's not at all useless. If it were it would not be so commonly employed by not just governments, but any group which seeks to ensure loyalty. Patriotism can be re-branded as anything since it is really just another word for "loyalty". Be it loyalty about a country, a family, sports team, political party, religion, or activism.
> 
> It has it uses, though it is a double-edged sword. Such is the nature of the mob.


Well, you're right there: It does have its uses, namely controlling other people and ensuring they dont do anything against whoever is in power. Like I said it was something created in times where a single person leaving to join the enemy could mean the destruction of your entire town/city/whatever.
By saying "you owe us loyalty for having been born here" you're almost guaranteeing that these person will never do anything against the interests of the ruling party.

I just really hate patriotism, and blind nationalism. Let me give you an example: Here in my country, there is this huge sense of foreign rejection, even in food products, so there is a brand of beans, it has existed here for like 70 years. Now recently, it was revealed that some of the bean production actually takes place in china, cultivated by chinese farmers. After that, there was a huge backlash and boycott campaigns against the company simply because the beans were not cultivated in my country by native farmers. And a lot of people stopped buying the freaking beans and switched to a different brand which tagline was "100 national!".
So my question is: Dont chinese farmers deserve to have money as well? Why deny them the right to sell their crops to us? Simply because they're farther away? We're all human, patriotism only causes divisions, most wars have been because of that, different nations, each claiming to be best than the other one.

And the example OP gave, if there was a war between america and japan, it would most likely be caused by the idea of patriotism, and if her friend wants to join the japanese side, what would be the problem? they may have the ideological alignment she follows, but suddenly it would be wrong because she'd be abandoning the piece of land in which she was born.


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## Ermenegildo (Feb 25, 2014)

MNiS said:


> Patriotism is the love for one's own county. Nationalism is the belief that a person should be loyal and proud of one's own country and is often associated with the belief that their own country is superior to others.


But sometimes the own country IS superior to many other countries


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## phoenix_9 (Nov 22, 2014)

The US has a shitton of problems, sure...so does every other country. Human nature is the real problem...if you want to get idealistic. 
The Scandinavian countries tend to have better views about how things should be done and actually follow through- imo.


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