# Ladies: Why can't we stare?



## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with a man admiring the beauty of a woman, but the problem comes when you do it inappropriately. I am a person who does not like to be the center of attention but a lot of women do, but since you are asking this question to the INFP girls you will get almost the same responses. 

I never dress provocatively, but I like to look pretty and sometimes sexy. If I attract male attention it was not my intention because I dress for myself. Is not my fault that God gave me a pair of boobs. Sometimes I am not in the mood to get attention like for example when I am on my way to work and I get on the train and everybody is staring at me. Sometimes this makes me feel uncomfortable, other times I am indifferent. There are always men looking at my face or my body and most of the time they are old enough to be my father. This makes me uncomfortable and it provokes me to put on my bitch face, maybe this is a tactic to protect myself. (I am a type 6 so I don't trust people that easily).

When a cute boy stares at me I get nervous and I try not to look at him much which is a mistake because I should look at him and smile. Why do you think I am still single?

There are also females who stare at me and I sometimes wonder if I have something on my face, but maybe they are just bored. I am not always calling attention to myself, perhaps I live in a culture where everybody has the bad habit of staring at your face. Nosy people.


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## 7rr7s (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm not a woman, but it used to bother me having people stare at me, so I can kinda relate to the not knowing what they're thinking/thinking they are juding you ect. But then I started shifting my focus to positive things like they're probably thinking "Damn who the fuck does that guy think he his, walking around with all that swagger! Whatta badass." 

As far as staring goes, it pisses me off that most men just stare. Staring is easy, but if you really wanna make her day, grow some balls and TELL her how amazing she looks. Women love a genuine compliement, so you might as well get them smiling and feeling good instead of staring like a creep.


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## Marimeli (Apr 17, 2012)

Stare away. I like to be appreciated. And if I'm uncomfortable with it, I'll tell you. 

One qualifier though: in a professional situation, or one in which I am presenting research (like a conference), it bothers me tremendously if someone is staring at my body or makes comments about it, even a compliment. Once I delivered a paper and afterward a guy came up and told me I had beautiful eyes. Are you kidding? I just spent 20 minutes explaining the research I've spent the last year doing, and all you got out of it was that I have nice eyes? I get that he was just trying to be nice but it made me feel pretty belittled, like the only contribution I have worth making to my field is making it prettier.

I wonder if admiring stares bother women who consider themselves attractive more than it would bother women who find themselves plain. You'd think a plain woman would feel uplifted by an admiring glance, but an attractive one would be annoyed by their frequency.


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## goldaline (Mar 24, 2012)

Young_Simba91 said:


> . I'm sorry if I offended anyone with this thread, I didn't mean it in a disrespectful way at all. So I don't come off as some pig let me clarify a little.
> 
> I completely understand the discomfort in an excessive gaze. I do appreciate the girls perspective on this, I would question someone intentions too. I just don't see the harm in an innocent glance or two.
> 
> ...


nono, i think you have plenty of valid points. what i was saying, is even if women are showing skin, it's not necessarily for men's attention. sometimes it's hot. i would totally go shirtless during hot summers, if my breasts weren't so sexualized that even nipples showing through my shirt makes me uncomfortable and guys stare. it's just a body, you know? perhaps attractive to some, but still, just the body of a living, breathing, human being. 

there are plenty, PLENTY of women who dress for attention, in the worst way. why do they do it? 
why do these women apparently objectify themselves? turn themselves into paper dolls?
because society tells us to. since i was born, i have been bombarded with messages about my looks. while boys had toys that encouraged them to play, and do, think and create, i was given child's make-up, perfect little Barbies, Disney movies where all the heroines are dependent on men and all beautiful, looks and beauty and looks. i grew up and all the famous pop stars, idols, etc all wore slutty outfits and hyper-sexualized attitudes. society... and let's be honest, it's a "man's society"... breeds these women. rewards these women. these women, who need to be accepted and perceived as beautiful, are obsessed with it. without, they have NO WORTH. why do you think as soon as wrinkles form, many women go nuts on anti-aging cream, spending thousands of dollars a year? some women get dangerous and incredibly expensive surgeries to "improve" their ugly features. highschool girls getting breast implants is almost normal now. 

can you blame them? from birth, women are molded into being all about appearances. shave your legs. wash your face. spend hours on your hair. do your make up. shave your armpits. pluck your eyebrows. pick out an outfit that is fashionable. buy more clothes. buy more products. buy more makeup. it's profitable to exploit women. who does it profit? men.

so you see, YES, men play a very crucial role in changing perceptions about women. but they also have a very important responsibility in embracing all forms of beauty- the beautiful human beings inside us all. the fat chick. the butch chick. the transwomen. the human being. look beyond and respect people despite their appearances. you can admire a beautiful woman without a qualm, but it takes a REAL man to smile and appreciate someone who is not valued by society because of their unacceptable appearance, because he sees the true beauty within _any _human being.

_that's_ how men can help change the paradigm.


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## Loveternity (Aug 3, 2011)

goldaline said:


> of _course _not all men are predators. but to women, we try to keep ourselves safe by seeing every strange man as a potential threat.


This summarizes a point that has appeared several times in the thread and has disturbed me greatly. I had _never_ seriously considered the possibility of this mentality existing. I feel sick. How are we supposed to react to this justified fear?

*continues reading the rest of the topic, planning to come back to it with more thoughts later*


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## redballoon (Oct 19, 2011)

goldaline said:


> wow. selfish much? at least you're honest about it, i guess, but that doesn't make it any less shitty.
> "let her be afraid"... wow. how cold of a heart do you have?
> i feel sorry for any survivor of sexual abuse you come into eyeshot with. like, "who cares of she might have had traumatic experiences and it's hard enough to crawl out of bed in the morning, let alone go out in public? let her be afraid. let her suffer, because i do what i want and only i matter!"
> 
> sorry but that's called being a selfish jerk. you want a pat on the back for being so goddamn aggressive and intrusive? yeah, because you should never do anything out of respect for anybody else. yeah, that's healthy.


hmm, yes. let me live my life on a hypothetical. according to your ill-thought out post, that is what you want me to do. live my life on a hypothetical situation.
that makes so much sense.
I frankly won't do it. people's problems are their own, not mine. especially one as personal as that. before it becomes my problem, its her problem, and she has to solve it herself.

you don't know shit about me. I'll be here when you want to apologize for your pathetic rant.


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## IAmOrangeToday (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm not very attractive and certainly haven't ever gotten stares from women (or men for that matter). However, I do catch myself staring too. I feel bad about it. Trust me, it's not always simple sexual hunger from me (although like all people with male genitals and male hormones, it is that sometimes and it makes me intensely embarassed that it happens as, believe me, I do put high value on individuals of all genders), but also a strange interest in people. Often, I might seem like I am staring at you when really you jolted me into a spiralling tangent of thought within miliseconds.


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## Adasta (Nov 22, 2011)

It always seems a shame to allow beauty to pass unperceived.

This can be done quite easily without leering.


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## goldentryst (May 17, 2011)

Not gonna lie, I love the attention.

If I don't like how it's coming from a guy that's not-so-appealing to me, I'll just brush it off and ignore him (along with any initial comments he may make). A small smile, polite fake laughter, and on my way I go.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

It's not bad if the guy is attractive or there's mutual chemistry.

Now imagine a really ugly girl, one you turned down previously, or say, a MAN, staring at your like a piece of meat. Are you uncomfortable? yeah! It's GROSS when someone you don't want wants you, probably because you start feeling you'll have to reject them soon and that causes anxiety. In other words, I don't believe guys can't stare, but that doesn't mean I can't be grossed out if you're gross!

Really pepole can do anything they want that isn't illegal. WOmen are free to stare at men as men to stare at a woman. But that doesn't mean the other party has to like it. So it will vary greatly situation by situation. The reaction coudl vary from flattered to scared. And I tihnk it's the persons job who is doing the staring to figure out what is socially appropriate adn what isn't. For example, what if a woman is doing a business presentation, and she can tell everyone is staring at her boobs instaed of listenging to her speech? Sure, it's the guys right to do so, but I don't blame her for feeling disheartened and maybe ashamed of her body for a couple seconds...

But in all honesty, I tihnk it has to severely cross a line for peopel to notice staring and take it in a bad way. Subtle checking out happens s24/7 and nothing bad comes of it. 

There's a huge difference between a brief glance, an appreciative look, and STARING, too.
anhoo, I don't really care if a guy looks at me briefly but it is getting to be a hassle to try to put off all these old, gross old men or drugged out teens who keep hitting on me on my way to school every day, and yeah, the stares can be a little uncomfortable or even outright gross when you're sitting in one stationary spot for 45 minutes in tranist and you can feel their eyes on you, unmoving...


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## Pondercat (Jan 26, 2012)

I thought this was relevant.


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## Young_Simba91 (Feb 26, 2012)

Pondercat said:


> I thought this was relevant.


See girls, you're all natural cardiologists .


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

Pondercat said:


> I thought this was relevant.


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

a big thumbs down for fake boobs




Young_Simba91 said:


> See girls, you're all natural cardiologists .


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## Young_Simba91 (Feb 26, 2012)

amethyst_butterfly said:


> a big thumbs down for fake boobs


I concur. Fake= Not cool. Authenticity is key.


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

:High Five:



Young_Simba91 said:


> I concur. Fake= Not cool. Authenticity is key.


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## ForsakenMe (Aug 30, 2010)

MooOfTheCow said:


> Watch carefully the looks on your fellow men's faces when they are staring at a girl. It is a hungry, greedy look... Imagine it trained on you all throughout the day. And there is no defense against an unwelcome stare, it's not like you can fight back. Point #1 I agree with you though.


And this is why I get a little uncomfortable getting stared at.

Oh, and OP? I hate to sound typical, but not every girl dresses like a skank when she's going out. I personally am more comfortable and confident in more modest clothing than the other way around. And yet I still get these intense stares.

In the end, women will be looked at no matter what she wears, I think. So let me kindly say: Put a lid on your "STOP WEARING SMALL SKIRTS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET LOOKS AHHH".


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## MilkyWay132 (Jul 15, 2010)

You know, I generally like to dress modestly. Although, of course, I will wear more shorts in the Summer because then the weather is hot. I have never really labelled a guy as "creepy" because I'd feel like I was labelling him, though saying he was *acting* creepy would be acceptable to me. If my cleavage was showing, and then a guy was looking at it, I would be somewhat bothered although I could somewhat understand. I've never been harrassed or even cat-called in my life so perhaps I'm a bit naive. I also don't like how the word leer seems to be a word only used with men, because I'm not sure if the word leer is even used correctly sometimes and I believe women can be creepy too. I think a problem is that sometimes a person can't tell whether you are interested in them or not. If you tell them you aren't, and they keep on pushing, then yes it's harrassment.

But yes, if a guy continually stares at a girl(or vice versa) I can understand why s/he would start to feel uncomfortable. I think even if someone is dressed in scant clothing, they still deserve respect. They aren't always dressing up because they want to be ogled---sometimes they may be competing with other members of their gender. In fact, I see a lot of girls doing this...they judge each others' clothing and such, and see if they measure up.

In fact, I used to be pretty insecure about my looks. I thought I was too pale, too freckled, too short, etc. and I'd blame the media for it because I always saw photoshoped pictures of women/girls who had flawless skin, hair, etc. But then so is my brother. He hates the way his hair is, and that goes to show that guys can insecure about their looks too. It's just that girls are generally raised to care more about how they look.


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## goldaline (Mar 24, 2012)

redballoon said:


> hmm, yes. let me live my life on a hypothetical. according to your ill-thought out post, that is what you want me to do. live my life on a hypothetical situation.
> that makes so much sense.
> I frankly won't do it. people's problems are their own, not mine. especially one as personal as that. before it becomes my problem, its her problem, and she has to solve it herself.
> 
> you don't know shit about me. I'll be here when you want to apologize for your pathetic rant.


oh no, i'm not apologizing for shit. pathetic rant? that in itself proves my point.


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## goldaline (Mar 24, 2012)

Overflow said:


> This summarizes a point that has appeared several times in the thread and has disturbed me greatly. I had _never_ seriously considered the possibility of this mentality existing. I feel sick. How are we supposed to react to this justified fear?
> 
> *continues reading the rest of the topic, planning to come back to it with more thoughts later*


 it makes me feel sick, too. i know not all men are ill intended, but many are misdirected, and some are seriously disturbed.
if you want to react, just keep it in mind when interacting with strange women in public. sometimes it makes our life so much easier when we run into considerate men, who don't awkwardly stare at us in an elevator, or come up to us on the train on force us to remove our headphones because he wants to compliment us. appreciate women, but give them the space and respect they deserve. i'm sure you already do. then _talk _about it with other men and young boys. don't skirt around the subject, bring it up, and add your voice to the struggle. that's all you can do.


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## dann (Feb 11, 2012)

Such negative words being tossed around here! No, I'm not OGLING or STARING. It's ADMIRATION really. So quit whining and wear less clothing so i can admire further


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## Marimeli (Apr 17, 2012)

@bromide

"smash her on a park bench." wow. Just... Wow. Thanks for the link.

Also, the phrase "lad mag" caught my fancy. I like how it sounds when you say it but it has a creepy feel to it.


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## amethyst_butterfly (Mar 14, 2011)

I remember that one day I was sitting on the passenger seat of the train and with the corner of my eye I noticed a man *in front of me who was holding up his cellphone at my direction. Suddenly I looked straight at him and he "jumped" and his cellphone fell from his hands. I sometimes wonder if that guy was recording me because what a coincidence that right when I looked at him he let his phone fall to the floor, and why was he holding it at my direction? I was sitting on the right and he was sitting on the left side. Maybe I am imagining things but this world is crazy that nothing surprises me anymore. Perverts are everywhere.*


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## Adasta (Nov 22, 2011)

Marimeli said:


> @bromide
> 
> "smash her on a park bench." wow. Just... Wow. Thanks for the link.
> 
> Also, the phrase "lad mag" caught my fancy. I like how it sounds when you say it but it has a creepy feel to it.


This is common English slang. Lad mag is also an oft-used phrase.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the phrase "smash" to refer to sex, other than when satirising the type of person that would.


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## Marimeli (Apr 17, 2012)

Adasta said:


> This is common English slang. Lad mag is also an oft-used phrase.
> 
> I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the phrase "smash" to refer to sex, other than when satirising the type of person that would.


I'm from the US, so that probably accounts for the kick I get out of the phrase  I'd never heard it before.


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## E_N_T_P (Aug 9, 2011)

I don’t stare either, it’s creepy and invasive. I think girls dress up to piss off other girls and for guys to notice them and *go talk to them*, not just stare.


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## Xistiller (Apr 1, 2012)

Well, part of me wonders if I have avoided identifying as a lady for the very things stated in this thread.

That aside, if you're going to ask "Why can't we stare?" my only response would be "Why can't you mind your own fucking business?"


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## Young_Simba91 (Feb 26, 2012)

Xistiller said:


> Well, part of me wonders if I have avoided identifying as a lady for the very things stated in this thread.
> 
> That aside, if you're going to ask "Why can't we stare?" my only response would be "Why can't you mind your own fucking business?"


I'll admit "stare" was a poor choice of words, it's a bit agressive. I was just trying to spark some discussion, and there has been some good debate so far.

But, "mind your own fucking business," c'mon. Its not like we're eavesdropping on a convo. Were not running up and snatching your purse and going through it (yes it happens, but most sane men won't do this). We're not running a background on check on you. We're taking a quick glance because we find you pretty. Is that really excessively intrusive?


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

i will just leave this here...


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## Xistiller (Apr 1, 2012)

Young_Simba91 said:


> I'll admit "stare" was a poor choice of words, it's a bit agressive. I was just trying to spark some discussion, and clearly it worked.
> 
> But, "mind your own fucking business," c'mon. Its not like we're eavesdropping on a convo. Were not running up and snatching your purse and going through it (yes it happens, but most sane men won't do this). We're not running a background on check on you. We're taking a quick glance because we find you pretty. Is that really excessively intrusive?


I'm running off angry fumes, so my aggressive post was my bad and I apologize. There's really nothing wrong with taking a glance at someone no matter what their gender is because they're attractive. There's something wrong with not viewing them as a person of equal standing with thoughts and feelings, and as long as you're doing that I guess there's nothing too bad going down.


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## mikki104 (Apr 7, 2012)

There is such a thing as an aggressive look. I do not like being looked at aggressively, it makes me uncomfortable. Do I really need to give you any more reason than that? Why can't you just respect that it makes some women uncomfortable and leave it at that? Must I lay out my logical rationale for preferring bikini-cut underwear to thongs as well, or will you just take me on my word that they're more comfortable for me?

As to dressing provocatively unfortunately it is a trend. Walk into the junior's section of any department store and you'll see that if you aren't willing to wear shorts that are about 5 inches long there's not many options. Jeans are mostly cut to women's shapes; if you want to fit in with your peers and be "cool" you are probably not wearing baggy-ass clothes. If you want to look like the pretty girls on the Hollister posters or the backup dancers on MTV you are not wearing conservative clothing. And most young women just want to fit in with their peers, they are not necessarily looking to be raped by your eyes. Misled, yes, because they don't recognize they have a choice to dress otherwise; but inconsistent? Not necessarily.


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## Sali (Feb 9, 2011)

I think the key here is subtlety, I don't think anyone minds a few glances their direction, but an open stare is just creepy.


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## Young_Simba91 (Feb 26, 2012)

mikki104 said:


> There is such a thing as an aggressive look. I do not like being looked at aggressively, it makes me uncomfortable. Do I really need to give you any more reason than that? Why can't you just respect that it makes some women uncomfortable and leave it at that? Must I lay out my logical rationale for preferring bikini-cut underwear to thongs as well, or will you just take me on my word that they're more .


I appreciate this stance. I don't think you need to present any more logic than this, its all valid. I think most guys in this thread respect that.

Where I've taken exception is in being called ignorant for stating the truth. Certain outfits will provoke different gazes. You said it well in identifying pop culture for setting the standard for how girls look. This same culture has shaped the male mind to objectify this image. It's a vicious cycle that puts women in a tough position. But the implication is that women have been dehumanized by peer pressure, yet men are pigs for reacting to the same culture. There is a lot of truth to this view, men need to be the leaders in changing this perception, but women could help themselves also by not falling into the trap.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

I try my damndest not to stare because otherwise I just look like a perv. 

EDIT: I look like even more of a perv than I already am. **fixed**


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Not this again. For crying out loud...


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## Miss Scarlet (Jul 26, 2010)

I know I'm going to get looks if I wear a low cut shirt. And I don't get on to guys about it either. But once the creepy guys start drooling, don't expect me to talk to you ever again. 

I also want to point out, that at least it's more socially accepted for guys to look at girls than girls looking at guys. NOT FAIR!


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## Tkae (Oct 15, 2009)

I agree with you on everything except that fact that you don't take into consideration the creepiness of staring.


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## mikki104 (Apr 7, 2012)

Young_Simba91 said:


> This same culture has shaped the male mind to objectify this image. It's a vicious cycle that puts women in a tough position. But the implication is that women have been dehumanized by peer pressure, yet men are pigs for reacting to the same culture. There is a lot of truth to this view, men need to be the leaders in changing this perception, but women could help themselves also by not falling into the trap.


Fair enough. I agree with that.


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## julia_irrlicht (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok, a funny thread, so here is a weird confession from an INTJ. In my late teen years my dear grandmom said: "If you think like a man, then at least dress like a lady". Then she specified that, for example, Brigitte Bardot is a feminine goddess. Note that Se function, responsible also for good style, is inferior in INTJs, so what I considered beautiful was actually slutty. I was happily parading in BB style outfits - hot pants, mini skirts, tight tops, tons of eye-liner and long bedroom hair, freaking out because of this sudden attention. 

I still have bad taste, still love BB style and my Se will probably never develop... at least became smart enough not to react on stares and comments.


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## La Li Lu Le Lo (Aug 15, 2011)

This is why most guys don't want you to know they're looking at you. If we get caught people think we're creeps.


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