# Am most likely INTx, is it P or J ? Halp



## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Hi,

I am new to MBTI, and have taken the humanmetrics MBTI test some times, it resulted twice in INTP, and four times in INTJ. I am under the impression that my mood affects the result, and maybe I am completely wrong, because it may as well be due to the uncertainty I know I had when answering some questions.

Now, I don't really understand what P and J mean, and how they are "decided" by tests.

I know for sure I am introverted, there is no question about Ixxx. Looking at cognitive functions, there is no doubt either that I am xxTx, I tested 100% T twice against 80+% the other times. I relate quite a lot to introverted intuition but I am not sure I understand it completely. *I am pretty sure I am INTx, but I am in a thick fog concerning P/J, I was hoping you guys could help me with that*.

I used two sites in my research, which I can't link, and am counting on you to tell me if I am mistaken somewhere in my categorisation.

[HR][/HR]

*(very ?) low Se :* I think it rarely manifests itself, but mostly when I'm practicing sports. The other day I was at the movie theatre with two friends and when we got out, it was raining cats and dogs. My friend shouted "See ya at the station", and started running. We ran (sprinted, rather) to the closest subway station, which was few hundreds meters away. I felt I was in some sort of trance, where I was very much aware of what was happening before me (people and obstacles to avoid, mostly), and enjoying the rain (I like rain). I felt excited, not tired at all, and would have liked it to last longer. That was a good evening. I kind of feel the same when practicing martial arts, but then I notice it is pulled back by something else ; only sprinting/"freerunning" does that so intensely.

I think I have, for some things, photographic memory (sadly not a mind palace, that would come in very handy). I have a very clear idea of the last state of my parents' house, my friends' houses, flats, my sister's flat, other friends' flats… like… photographics. For example, at my parents, I will notice if they change the tablecloth in the kitchen, if they change curtains, if they rearrange the furniture, etc… *Is that even Se ?*


*(Low ?) Si :* I can notice it, and it is reliable or not. Someone will talk to me about something, and I will remember a reference, an article, not always exactly, and I can't always tell from where it is, nor what it was saying. It often leads to awkward situations where I feel like an complete idiot because I didn't add anything of actual importance to the conversation.

I hate change. Hate moving out, changing my job (strangely, I like moving in, no idea why ; new nest, maybe). I am not comfortable with going to new places, I get easily lost if I am not in the subway. I also manage, at times, to miss my station, because I think, read, etc… or I take the train in the wrong direction.

I take distance, however, with conventions, mostly social. I hate complimenting people, especially if this is for something they are supposed to do. And also for something they are, they are not responsible for genetics. I can deal with compliments made to me, but awkwardly, the famous uncomfortable smile-node-thanks combo. I don't know why people smalltalk if this is just out of politeness. I shut up when I have nothing relevant to contribute to a conversation, and I am fine with enjoying someone's presence, silently, without talking. I don't get why we offer presents at birthdays, or at any occasion. I don't get why I would excuse myself if someone is taking what I say personally since it is most of the time not an attack, and I am not the one taking it personally. So many conventions that should be ended in blood, and are not, which I think are crippling the evolution of our civilization.

Sometimes, while playing games (Magic the Gathering for example, where a lot of variables enter into the equation that result in a decision. Also surprise !), I tunnel vision, *a lot*. I forget things that are not exactly details, or should not be, and I have sometimes a hard time picturing(/mentalizing, maybe ?) a situation as a whole. There is no reason for this one not happening in other contexts, I don't have another in mind right now.

I am not sure to which S it belongs, but I hear and see, not everything, but *a lot* of things. Visual details, like insects entering my peripheral field of view for a fraction of a second. Little sounds that get out of the ambient noise, even when I have my headset on, with loud music. Labels on newly bought clothes irritate me. This is unconscious. The last visual test I took showed that I have a very good vision, not sure if relevant here. Probably not.

If there are more than one conversation, I can't help but try and follow them all, to not miss anything. What results is, you got it, I miss a lot of things (not all). This can and will make me lose the thread of a conversation, in exchange for information form the other one.​

*(Very low ?) Ne :* even with the definitions, This function doesn't appear very clear to me. I don't think I am a very creative person. I am sure as hell completely oblivious to hidden meanings behind behaviors and what people say. Most of the time I take things litterally. Even, sometimes, oral sarcasm ; I'm mostly okay with written sarcasm (keyword, "mostly"). Very credulous. A my best friend made me believe his younger sister was a lesbian, for the two days I've seen her ; I believed it until she told me a month later that she was actually not. Not that I did care though, but it really went through my mind as another information, like : "things to remember about <anon>", and added the item to the list.

Last time I went on a walk with friends, some guy stopped me to ask me if I wanted a cigarette and after I saw appearing a big multicolored and full of fluff "WTF" in my head, I said "no" (=> because I don't smoke). Everyone laughed because apparently he was trying to flirt and I didn't notice. My reaction to that was basically to "rant" about how people are not clear about their intentions. Deeper, I was concerned about when a potential love interest would do the same in the future. It didn't fail :

After that, I didn't notice, either, when my best friend's exgf (already ex at the time) was what I perceived as "friendly", but she was also touchy (which I usually notice and hate : _« get out of my vital space unless you're a girl, and I like you, and I want to cuddle »_). After she left, he told me "You just let this one slip". I answered "What the hell ? You sure ?". The answer was obviously positive.

Those would be low Ne if I'm not mistaken… ?_?​ 

*(Very ?) high Ni :* "What could be" sums it up I think. I've been called an utopist a good amount of times, still am on a regular basis because I don't release my grasp on the subject when it comes. I have a decently precise idea of how the world could be better (needs a lot more work & research). And an even more precise idea of how it will without a doubt work better than how the world *currently* "works" (deconstructing ideas, still and always).

I like solving problems, and while that might have more to do with Te/Ti, I think it helps finding solutions (doesn't it ?). The sites I used as reference are talking about systems : _« Aww yiss. Mutha. Fuckin'. Systems. Me likes some systems. »_

Also one site talks about how uncomfortable Ni is in social events, and how Ni gives a bad first impression, I relate heavily to both. *But I don't see how that is related to Ni… how ?*


*(Very ?) low Fe :* manifests itself when there is a conflict where someone takes something futile personally and has an outburst over it. It pisses me off, and I don't know how to deal with it other than closing the debate/conversation to isolate myself. It also seem to manifest when someone attacks, not my reasoning, but its integrity. Basically when the logical reasoning I present is judged as biased, but without telling why it is biased. It will manifest itself a bit when someone is both trying to argue and being irrational : I will not only be pissed off, but also look pissed off. Also I hate small talk, even though I try my best to not forget to be polite (basics, saying hi/goodbye/thanks, I sometimes do forget).

Other than that, I have a serious lack of empathy, if this is not to the point of apathy. Most of the time, I recognize my interlocutor's feeling, but I don't know how to react to it. This is mostly because I either don't care or I can't really do anything to it. Sometimes I*don't even know if the person is pissed, or just disappointed, or upset, or sad. Body cues doesn't seem obvious enough.
I was informed one morning of the death of my aunt, and after the entire day spent thinking about what that implied, I thought : _"Soooo… we won't see her again"_, and that was all, but that didn't make me shed a tear (this day I started wondering what was wrong with me ; here I*am).

On a side note, could be relevant or not, I am not rejecting the idea that I may have some moderate form of Asperger's. But first, typing.​

*Very low Fi :* This one seems even more obscure than Ne. I don't know how it manifests itself. Are emotions linked to Fi ? If yes, I definitely have emotions. My problem is I don't recognize/identify all of them. I can tell when I am contempt, pissed, angry ; but I don't recognize sadness, love, happiness. I can't remember the last time I felt those (sadness maybe, but it has been a damn long time ; deaths of pets). As a consequence, sometimes I wonder if I am happy or just contempt, angry or just pissed, or if I like someone or if this is love. Instead, most of the time, an unreasonable amount of stress and anxiety. From my experience, this is heavily crippling to navigate through life. The rest is a big question mark: feel something, cannot identify.

What is sure, is that I almost never act on impulse, especially concerning important matters. I also have a hard time expressing emotions. Surprisingly I was never told I was cold or robotic. Once, that I couldn't have fun, I could only respond by a simple and completely appropriate "fuck off", out of not knowing what else to say at the moment.


*Very high Te :* Yes, yes, yes. I deconstruct ideas, it helps testing their strength. All ideas, so it might have to do with both Te and Ti. I don't think I organize *that* much. A little bit but not that much. My desk looks like a mess to me, even though I know exactly where everything is, I have papers all over my flat, I just know where the important ones are ; however, I sort my Magic cards into my binder by format, then edition, then card number ; my music folder is sorted by artist, album, then track, songs have to be tagged properly, and named following a certain pattern. I am so not finished with that. Some other folder on my computer are somewhere, I don't even know or care.

I don't like organizing events, mainly because I suppose if people want to see me, they will call me. If I am invited to an event (social or not), I need to know the details, including, if possible, who will be there. It helps confirming or declining.

I easily follow *most* of people's logic, granted it is actually logical (aaaahaha…).


*(Very ?) high Ti :* As I said, I like deconstructing ideas, but I also like to replace deficient ideas by some of my own, and solving problems. I have a hard time not being logical, going with the flow or whatever people call it, I have a need for me, and people, and things to make sense. It disturbs me when things don't make sense.

As long as a solution to a problem makes sense and actually solves the problem, I am okay with it, it doesn't have to be a new one, or mine. I need things to work. I don't know what else to add here.



*Other things that are probably relevant :*

I am introverted, but you might have picked that up. Not only introverted, but shy. Crippling.
This may actually be important, I judge people, behaviors, ideas, concepts, *fast*. In a matter of minutes I have a first judgement putting a person, behavior, idea, concept in a box. I try and review it after, when alone, but basically : "acceptable" or "stupid". *Is that how P/J is determined ?*
I like offensive humor, the more the best. Jews jokes crack me up. If people could live with it that'd be great.
I have my personal set of moral/ethics rules, which people have no clue about. The few I ever let transpire, resulted in very rough reactions to them. Now I put gloves to test the ground (okay, that's an odd metaphor).
I have few very good friends, a lot more "friends" I could say are more acquaintances than friends. People who I get along well, but meh, not really more than that. They are more or less nice people, most of them talk way too much.
Despite the previous item, I feel very alone in general, but am not necessarily looking to fill what lacks. A SO might be lacking, but expectations are numerous. I know what I don't want to deal with.
I feel not understood, unless by that best friend's sister, who happen to have tested INTJ, too. Another good friend tested INTJ, but we are more distant. I think this is because of diverging interests over time (we have known each other for 20~ years).
My best friend has recently started calling me Spock instead of using our usual not-your-actual-first-name-but-a-completely-random-one habit (which is hilarious when meeting new people, you should try it). I can see why he started calling me that, but I wonder why now and not years before now.
I actually relate to Spock behavior for the few Spock reactions I have seen. I also relate a lot but not completely to Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory, to Pam from True Blood.
I wouldn't say I_like_ correcting people, but I do correct them a lot.
I hate leading.
I *know* I *am* more intelligent than most of the human population. If that sounded arrogant, reassure yourself, I also think I am dumb as hell, lacking knowledge, in all freaking domains. All. That makes a lot of people very stupid.
I feel that I lack time to collect knowledge in subjects that interest me, and that I will never have enough time in my entire life, even if I use my time more efficiently by not playing games, sleeping, socializing, eating etc … the idea is depressing.
I like deep intellectual conversations. Sometimes philosophical, conceptual, imaginary, or very much practical. I question a lot, and conscientiously try to question everything (I wish people did that more).
I am very pessimistic about the future.


*To conclude :*

Am I a P or a J, and why ?
French keyboard layouts are shit when it comes to type english for more than 3 hours, fuck me, 'w' is so faaaaaar. *ahem*
Preview function of the forum seems to randomly add * s between words.


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## knightlevante (May 26, 2012)

How do you react to rejection? For example, when someone reject your ideas, what are your outward and inward reaction? Do you tend to convince people that your idea is worth selling?


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

knightlevante said:


> How do you react to rejection? For example, when someone reject your ideas, what are your outward and inward reaction? Do you tend to convince people that your idea is worth selling?


It depends on what basis. If there are logical arguments to support the rejection I consider it (I may need some time to take in account all implications of it) ; if there are not, I try and keep asking for some sort of ground, up to a point where I am no longer patient and can become withering. I think I am very patient, but I could be wrong. After I get arguments to support the rejection, I try to convince, yeah.

That is only for rejection of ideas.


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## Xenograft (Jul 1, 2013)

I want to open with helping you to understand that the P and the J are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE and being on the fence between "P and J" means that you have absolutely no idea what your functions are (also tests are dumb please do not base your type on tests, I have tested many many types, all but one of which was incorrect). INTJ is NiTeFiSe and INTP is TiNeSiFe. Completely different, they share no functions, not even their cognition order is the same. In MBTI there are *judging* and *perceiving* functions, and they all do different things. 

Judging functions are functions that make judgments, they don't process information, they are what spurs an action. These functions are thinking and feeling functions (so Fe/Fi and Te/Ti). Perceiving functions are those that process data from the external and internal world, these are the sensing and intuiting functions (so Ne/Ni and Se/Si). The P and J are determined by which your function is second in line in your stack. For instance, I am an INFP, but Fi is a judging function, so the P comes from my Ne! For an INTJ, the second function is a judging function, so it's a judging type. This really doesn't make any sense when you look at it, which is why Socionics has the J and the P switched. An INTP in Socionics is an INTj (lowercase, very important) because its dominant function is an introverted judging function (Ji) and (for another example) an INTJ in Socionics is an INTp because it's dominant function is an introverted perceiving function (Pi). When looking at P and J, you should never consider any of the following:


Am I orderly?
Am I scheduled?
Am I on time?
Am I cluttered?
Am I messy?
Do I like obligations?
Do I need to be independent?
Do I judge people harshly?
Do I act open about people rather than judge them immediately?
Or anything of that sort, because those behaviours are secondary to the P and J lettering. Ignore all of that bullshit, it's completely useless to you when trying to type yourself at first.

Secondly, the issue of "introversion and extroversion" has (yet again) absolutely nothing to do with behaviour, although preference can lead to certain patterns. I'm a very loud person, when I talk I tend to make myself very well known (assuming I am in a stable environment in which I feel comfortable), but I do very well with people walking up to me on the street and engaging me in conversation. I can hold six hour conversations like it's nothing, and I don't often need a large amount of alone time. So what's this? I must be an ENFP! But I'm not. I'm an Fi dominant type, so I'm an introvert. My first function is immediately focused on the self (egocentric), and my internal world of emotions, thus I am an introvert. I'm still talkative and a tad obtuse, but I only speak when I am sure of what I am going to say. I go in bursts, I'll talk for a great deal and then be silent for a similar amount of time. I am very sociable, active in my friend groups, and handle large gatherings of friends/close acquaintances pretty well usually. I prefer one on one interaction to anything else, but sometimes I like to be in the spotlight. All of this? This has nothing to do with my functions at all. Being an "ambivert" has, yet again, nothing to do with functions, just social inclinations. Don't base your type on social behaviour alone, especially if you are a type with a dominant introverted function.

This is a very long post, so I'm not going to directly quote anything unless you need me to. I think you're an ESTJ or ISTJ, based on what you said about Se (and Te), because that's not Se, that's Si. One thing to understand is that it is near impossible to describe intuitive functions without a sensing function, so often the sensing function is also paired with the intuitive function. Ne and Ni are both pattern recognition functions (of course they do a lot more but if I were to simplify it [which you shouldn't do] then that is what I'd say they are), and they work in conjunction with how the sensing function views the world around them. Si remembers parts, Se remembers wholes. Si will remember the angle of a painting, and notice it's crooked, Se will remember the general style of the room and notice if things are slightly off (but that's probably pushing it). Types with Se are better at acting in the moment, they are more decisive, whereas Si users tend to be more indecisive or take longer in making decisions. INTJs and ENTJs like bullet points, they are types that take complexities (Ni) and reduce them to singularities (Te) in order to generate systems for completing tasks. INTJs are system builders, INTPs are more about questions. Ti is theoretical, it's generally not concerned with the answer, it wants to know the process. Ti is more adaptive, but can be equally as closed minded as Fi can be because it is *personal logic* and not *objective logic.* That's not to say that Ti isn't rational, it's just not objective according to the rest of the world, they are independent of the world's logic and prefer to come up with their own conclusions of how things work. 

Side notes:
No one function is primarily responsible for awkwardness or bad first impressions, that's just being nervous. 
Ni is about hidden meanings (reading between the lines), Ne is about connections, FAR different. Ne takes an idea and tries to fit it into a bunch of holes in order to fact check it. TiNe checks all information before accepting it, NiTe generates its own information. 

Get back to me and I will be able to answer more questions if you have any. Have you read up on ISTJ at all? I'd like to explain how inferior feeling functions work but I'd rather not overwhelm you, so point out exactly what else you need made clear and I will do my best to illuminate this very confusing subject.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

(I'll quote and cut your post only for a shortening purpose)
Edit : Why the hell quoting doesn't take your actual username >.<



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> When looking at P and J, you should never consider any of the following:
> …


I considered the following to try and determine my functions which then will determine my P or J. Is that not the process ? Or is that they don't help determining functions ?



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> Secondly, the issue
> …
> with a dominant introverted function.


Are you… trying to say I am an introvert ? If yes, that's no surprise, but if no, your explanation narrows down my dominant function to an introverted one, because I am pretty sure I am introverted, and there is/was no question about that. I like being with people I appreciate, but it drains me. I am pretty sure that's the definition of introverted.



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> I think you're an ESTJ or ISTJ, based on what you said about Se (and Te), because that's not Se, that's Si.


Which part, the one about photographic memory I*assume ?



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> Si remembers parts, Se remembers wholes. Si will remember the angle of a painting, and notice it's crooked, Se will remember the general style of the room and notice if things are slightly off (but that's probably pushing it). Types with Se are better at acting in the moment, they are more decisive, whereas Si users tend to be more indecisive or take longer in making decisions.


Okay… I understand, but I have no idea which one is dominant between the two. I am definitely not spontaneous as much as I'd like, and if a few of my decisions are fast, they are all thought through. Si I guess. Also is it true that sensing have anything to do with the attachment we have to traditions ? I*read that a lot.



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> INTJs and ENTJs like bullet points, *they are types that take complexities (Ni) and reduce them to singularities (Te)* in order to generate systems for completing tasks.


Does that mean they simplify complex ideas ? If not, define singularities. If yes I do that quite a lot. I sometimes need to in order to go further/memorize it/use it.



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> INTJs are system builders, INTPs are more about questions. Ti is theoretical, it's generally not concerned with the answer, it wants to know the process. Ti is more adaptive, but can be equally as closed minded as Fi can be because it is personal logic and not objective logic. That's not to say that Ti isn't rational, it's just not objective *according to the rest of the world*, they are independent of the world's logic and prefer to come up with their own conclusions of how things work.


Are building systems and asking questions exclusive ? I think they are not. Why would those be specific to those types, since you need knowledge to build systems, and you acquire knowledge by asking questions which will direct research one way or another (or both).
About the bolded part, the rest of the world is just a lot of subjective logics. Now what, how do we decide which subjective logic is objective ? The one the majority recognize/observe ? That seems to me like a bold strategy considering the majority has proven to me an inability to see further its own nose, and an inability to have deep questioning about said world.
To be honest, I couldn't tell right now which T dominates the other, they're both very developed.



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> Ni is about hidden meanings (reading between the lines), Ne is about connections, FAR different. Ne takes an idea and tries to fit it into a bunch of holes in order to fact check it. TiNe checks all information before accepting it, NiTe generates its own information.


Intuitions lost me. I thought Ne was about hidden meanings. I don't see how they manifest themselves, will have to sleep on it.



Xenograft​;8658474 said:


> Have you read up on ISTJ at all? *I'd like to explain how inferior feeling functions work but I'd rather not overwhelm you,* […]


I didn't until now. I relate to some extent, but I am not so much in touch or attached to what I know or experienced in the past.
Bold : Please do, if I am overwhelmed, I will retire to do something else and come back later when I'll have fully integrated previous informations.


Thanks for your time.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Lonewaer said:


> *(Very low ?) Ne :*
> 
> *(Very ?) high Ni :*
> 
> ...


hi Ni, _lo Ne_, hi T==>*INTJ*


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

xSTP, I'm almost certain of it. How do you feel about your introversion/extroversion?


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## xnewix (Apr 17, 2014)

Estj


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Moya said:


> xSTP, I'm almost certain of it. How do you feel about your introversion/extroversion?


I get exhausted fast when I am around many people for too long. When it happens, I can enjoy it depending on the people, but after that I need an equal amount of time either alone or with very few people. Preferably alone.


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Lonewaer said:


> I get exhausted fast when I am around many people for too long. When it happens, I can enjoy it depending on the people, but after that I need an equal amount of time either alone or with very few people. Preferably alone.


Then yes, ISTP. You're definitely not an intuitive, but you aren't a complete stranger to Ni, and your Fe is your weak spot. You said yourself that Ti is very high for you. Plus your writing gives off the impression of an SP.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Is there a questionnaire I can take to clear out some things ? It seems odd that you all came to different conclusions, and also that I appear as a sensor, while I tend to think long-term, "could", and usually don't feel like letting myself go into the present.

Evidently, typing someone isn't nearly as easy as I thought, even for experienced people. I'll have to wait for a lot more feedback.


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## cremefraiche (Jul 9, 2014)

I get the J vibe from you.

Just FYI, although we may be Judgers, things like "judging harshly" and "judging rather than being open to people" are biased and paint the picture that Js are judgmental asses. J may stand for Judging but it doesn't mean close-minded.

In terms of plans and not people, Js prefer to judge/plan rather than stay open. That's less offensive I think.

So yes, we are quick to judge things and people, but it doesn't mean we are asses about it. (You didn't say this, but I got that vibe somewhere earlier in the thread from others).


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

cremefraiche said:


> I get the J vibe from you.
> 
> Just FYI, although we may be Judgers, things like "judging harshly" and "judging rather than being open to people" are biased and paint the picture that Js are judgmental asses. J may stand for Judging but it doesn't mean close-minded.
> 
> ...


Oh, but I *am* personally a judgemental ass. I don't know how much it relates to J, and I usually don't appear as an ass to others (I have been, and it doesn't work in social situations, heh), but in my eyes I am harsh, and a good half of the time, quite a bit unfair, hence, an ass. Because of that I try and force myself to review my judgements at least three times after a first impression, with taking time to acknowledge the most variables possible.

Now, I try to be as open as possible, and mostly succeed, I think, unless in the face of irrational/illogical. I don't get, however, what you mean by _« That's less offensive »_. What is ? Formulating Js as "those who prefer to judge instead of being open" rather that "close-minded judging asses" ?
Meh… The latter seems more wrong than offensive than the former, but maybe that's just me, not taking things personally.

I remember having had a hard time understanding not to make value judgements. Not to say "this idea is stupid" but rather "this idea appears to me as stupid". The difference seems to be a variance in the perception ; basically, people can and will be offended if you make a value judgement, and won't if you don't. While I understand the reasoning behind that, I still think that people taking things personally have nothing to do with me.

[hr][/hr]
After a quick tour in the Cognitive functions section, I am a bit dazed I have to say.

What I am noticing is that even though a lot of people here have thousands of posts (some talking obviously has been going on), the process of defining cognitive functions is still not finished, as no one is agreeing on even seemingly simpler functions like Ti/Te, not to talk about reformulating them so that everyone can understand them. Now I realize how hard my question is when I ask « How does Ni/Ne manifest themselves ? »
I have not been lurking for that long, but I have yet to see two people agreeing on functions while the basis for this whole MBTI thing would be to agree on the functions first. There are even people thinking Jung's definitions are not exact, I mean… based on what, their own personal views of the functions ? Their type, which is based on functions they can't agree to define ?

This is really confusing. I don't mind people debating the meaning of each function, but there are five different stickies pretending to define cognitive functions. I will go through them all, trust me, but whyyy five ? Couldn't there just be one summing everything up, on which we can rely to type people until new definitions are found ?


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Lonewaer said:


> Is there a questionnaire I can take to clear out some things ? It seems odd that you all came to different conclusions, and also that I appear as a sensor, while I tend to think long-term, "could", and usually don't feel like letting myself go into the present.
> 
> Evidently, typing someone isn't nearly as easy as I thought, even for experienced people. I'll have to wait for a lot more feedback.


There are a few stickied in this very subforum.



cremefraiche said:


> I get the J vibe from you.
> 
> Just FYI, although we may be Judgers, things like "judging harshly" and "judging rather than being open to people" are biased and paint the picture that Js are judgmental asses. J may stand for Judging but it doesn't mean close-minded.
> 
> ...


Just feel like pointing out - J/P as a dichotomy does not really exist in Jungian theory the same way it does in pop-MBTI. IxxJs lead with Pi functions and do not generally exhibit the traits that ExxJ types do, and when IxxJs _do_, it is much less pronounced.



Lonewaer said:


> Oh, but I *am* personally a judgemental ass. I don't know how much it relates to J, and I usually don't appear as an ass to others (I have been, and it doesn't work in social situations, heh), but in my eyes I am harsh, and a good half of the time, quite a bit unfair, hence, an ass. Because of that I try and force myself to review my judgements at least three times after a first impression, with taking time to acknowledge the most variables possible.


This makes me think that you're a Jx-dom, but since you say you don't appear to be judgmental to others, Ji. Which is consistent with IxTP (Ti-dom).



> I remember having had a hard time understanding not to make value judgements. Not to say "this idea is stupid" but rather "this idea appears to me as stupid". The difference seems to be a variance in the perception ; basically, people can and will be offended if you make a value judgement, and won't if you don't. While I understand the reasoning behind that, I still think that people taking things personally have nothing to do with me.


Ji-dom.



> What I am noticing is that even though a lot of people here have thousands of posts (some talking obviously has been going on), the process of defining cognitive functions is still not finished, as no one is agreeing on even seemingly simpler functions like Ti/Te, not to talk about reformulating them so that everyone can understand them. Now I realize how hard my question is when I ask « How does Ni/Ne manifest themselves ? »
> I have not been lurking for that long, but I have yet to see two people agreeing on functions while the basis for this whole MBTI thing would be to agree on the functions first. There are even people thinking Jung's definitions are not exact, I mean… based on what, their own personal views of the functions ? Their type, which is based on functions they can't agree to define ?
> 
> This is really confusing. I don't mind people debating the meaning of each function, but there are five different stickies pretending to define cognitive functions. I will go through them all, trust me, but whyyy five ? Couldn't there just be one summing everything up, on which we can rely to type people until new definitions are found ?


This is why MBTI and Jungian functions are theories. There is no objective way to define them, that's why we have these forums to discuss it. That makes things more confusing...but it also encourages independence of thought. It is what you make of it.

That being said, it _is _very confusing, especially at first, to understand the functions and how they manifest in different types. I still struggle with it, primarily when it's a function I'm not firsthand familiar with (which are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si).

If you're looking for the difference between Ne and Ni, here's what I think.
Ne is extroverted - it aims for breadth, and it starts from one point and projects outward. Almost like a "burst" of intuition. It generates several equally plausible/useful possibilities in this "burst", so the projections it makes might end up similar or long shots from the rest, which is what gives Ne its random appearance.

Ni is introverted - it aims for depth, and it starts from multiple points and narrows them down into one valid point, then follows that as far as it can until it reaches a plausible conclusion. Ni is more decisive, Ne is more speculative. Ne likes conscious musing, Ni is generally more unconscious.

Here's a vague visual representation of both:








Ne is at the top - it takes one central idea (black) and uses it as a jump-off point for multiple subsequent ideas. Ni is at the bottom - it takes several possibilities and synthesizes them into one central idea, which it then follows further until it reaches a conclusion it is pleased with.


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## cremefraiche (Jul 9, 2014)

Lonewaer said:


> Formulating Js as "those who prefer to judge instead of being open" rather that "close-minded judging asses" ?
> Meh… The latter seems more wrong than offensive than the former, but maybe that's just me, not taking things personally.


I said they are not the latter, and agree it is wrong and offensive. I can be a judging ass sometimes, too. And I am certainly not calling you an ass. Rather, that Js have a reputation of being initially thought of that way (which you also pointed out), which is wrong.

I'm not taking things personally, and don't appreciate your allusion to me as "people." I also try to be as open as possible, and usually succeed. Everything you said, I said. Thanks.


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

@cremefraiche : There is no allusion to you in my post, I only quoted you. If you saw one, I'm sorry you did, that was not intended.

To me the latter is not wrong in that it is offensive, but false because very limitative.

Thanks for your feedback =)


[hr][/hr] @Moya :


Moya said:


> This makes me think that you're a Jx-dom, but since you say you don't appear to be judgmental to others, Ji. Which is consistent with IxTP (Ti-dom).


I don't because I*repress the expression of most judgements.

I went back to Cognitive functions section, and read some stickies there. Not finished, but my functions seem to be in order of importance : Ti > Te > Se > Ni > Si > Fi > Ne > Fe.
There's a problem with that, Ti/Te being both on top of the rest… is it ? I mean it doesn't help typing me, right ? Te should be a shadow function, as well as Si maybe ?

Thanks for your definitions, you made them clear. By those I*seem to have nearly non-existent Ne, and a bit of Ni (hunches). It sticks with the order I came to conclude.


[hr][/hr]
Here's one questionnaire, the other will come later as it's longer to answer :

*0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.*
Male, 27, not happy, not unhappy.
Short nights streak, damn functions are keeping me awake and busy.

*1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.*
farm6 staticflickr com/5518/14482125277_b4783532e8_c.jpg

Boats, Clouds. Seems photoshopped.
Afterlife, is that you ?
The future, before the end of the world.
Wait, not that far, the end of Earth will be by being eaten by the Sun. Pic doesn't look like it's burning.
Should I*go back to sleep ?
Clouds are nicely shaped, but I don't like the color of the sky.
There is a cloud before the Sun. Don't see why else it would appear so small.
I wouldn't hang this pic in my house, I don't like it.


*2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?*
I will suppose they are (good) friends, since I most likely not answer positively to an invitation from non-friends.
Initial thoughts : 

Aww f***, crappy evening incoming.
Why is this car not working as it should ?
(if this is my favorite band, which I still have not defined, I'd probably seem irritable, and not patient dealing with people)
Outward reaction :

Aww f***, crappy evening incoming.
« Okay, let's fix this. Symptoms before break down, tools pls. »
Probably not in the mood for continuing the evening, and would want to cancel it.


*3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the after party that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?*
Still considering I'm with friends and not just people.
What I feel :

Afterparty ? Hell no.
If they want to go, they better drink and enjoy, because I am sure as hell I won't enjoy it. I'll f****** drive.
What I do :

« No, I came to listen to music, not to party. I don't want to go to the after party, I'm tired. Let's stop and get a drink on the way back, rather. »
(they insist, obviously)
« Gimme the keys. »
« Fine. You guys better enjoy, I can zone out. I'll drive us back. »


*4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?*
Which beliefs ? A subject I*am strongly opinionated about I guess. Let's suppose a friend of mine does (because they usually don't).
Inward reaction :

Did he… actually think through this moronic thing he just said ?
Let's destroy his theory : why is it moronic. *make a list*

Outward reaction :

Wait for him to use one of the arguments that make his theory wrong.
Be a diplomat and try to lead him to the moronic side of his theory by asking him why he thinks that, and then why this and why that, etc…
By the time, I've calmed down from the break down of the car, and I'm relieved we're gone from the after party. Usual calm state of mind, I'm ready to end the conversation if he brings irrational in there.
If he doesn't use an argument : « You're drunk. Moving on, look at that man's haircut. » That defuses any sort of "clash" with my friends if they have been drinking.
There is also the slight possibility that he might be more right than I am ("slight" because while he was having fun, I was overthinking s***, like I always do). In that case, he has presented reasonable arguments and/or evidence to me. « Huh… I didn't think about that… let me come back to you on that subject », and I basically shut down to think about what I heard, while he notices some guy's haircut and makes fun of it.


*5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?*
Here I'll guess undeserved violence… It never happened to me directly or to someone within my direct range of immediate action, so I*will only suppose.


First I'd speak up to express my displeasement with the situation.
I think I am completely able to punch/hurt anyone that insists. So the person learns something I want him/her to learn. Violence tend to do that. Usually based on "don't be an ass****".

I have strong opinions about some subjects, but as long as I'm not involved/bothered directly, I let people be idiots by themselves.


*6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?*

Question EVERYTHING. Stop believing. You don't need beliefs.
Think. Make sense.
Don't be impulsive for *important* things.
Justi- Sorry : *JUSTICE*.
Do what interests you.

For some, I don't know, for some, research, and for some, I asked, reasoned, thought.
How can they change ? Aaa haha. Hard proof they're wrong. But mostly they are not, I already questioned them.


*7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about your personality, what would it be? Why?*
a) I hate injustice. It's absolutely everywhere, and absolutely no one freaking sees it. Ehh… also morals/ethics.
b) Delete shyness, procrastination. Maybe add empathy ? Not sure for that one, that seems exhausting. Better recognition of all my emotions.


*8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?*
I acknowledge them then proceed to put them temporarily aside to think clearly, and maybe, maybe, consider them again. I don't really know when they're triggered… when something or someone new enters my life, they help constructing judgements about it.


*9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?*
a) Reading, researching, playing (video) games, listening to music, seeing my sister, seeing a few friends, working on systems I guess.
b) Anything that involves being around 15+ people, seeing my non-sister family (no idea why, maybe because of small talk), meeting new people, working with more than 2 people, arguing with irrational/emotive people.


*10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?*
My first impressions, my lack of care for people's personal problems, a lot of thoughts, some jokes, my feelings. My awkwardness when female acquaintances greet with a shake of hand instead of a kiss on the cheek (*we play games/study/work together lady, that's close enough*).


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## Moya (May 22, 2012)

Lonewaer said:


> @_Moya_ :
> 
> I don't because I*repress the expression of most judgements.
> 
> ...


Trying to "order" your cognitive functions is rarely, in reality, very reliable. Especially when you're new to MBTI, it is extremely easy to confuse the expression of two functions with each other. Other than misplaced Te, that order is very consistent with ISTP...having Fe as the very last function isn't uncommon, since in reality it would be quite the weak spot for you.



> Here's one questionnaire, the other will come later as it's longer to answer :
> 
> *0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.*
> Male, 27, not happy, not unhappy.
> ...


Se>Ni here.




> *2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?*
> I will suppose they are (good) friends, since I most likely not answer positively to an invitation from non-friends.
> Initial thoughts :
> 
> ...


Ti/Se.



> *3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the after party that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?*
> Still considering I'm with friends and not just people.
> What I feel :
> 
> ...


Introversion, Se, inferior Fe.



> *4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?*
> Which beliefs ? A subject I*am strongly opinionated about I guess. Let's suppose a friend of mine does (because they usually don't).
> Inward reaction :
> 
> ...


Lots of Ti, inferior Fe.



> *5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?*
> Here I'll guess undeserved violence… It never happened to me directly or to someone within my direct range of immediate action, so I*will only suppose.
> 
> 
> ...


Se, inferior Fe.



> *6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?*
> 
> Question EVERYTHING. Stop believing. You don't need beliefs.
> Think. Make sense.
> ...


Ti, Se, some Ni, lack of Fi.



> *7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about your personality, what would it be? Why?*
> a) I hate injustice. It's absolutely everywhere, and absolutely no one freaking sees it. Ehh… also morals/ethics.
> b) Delete shyness, procrastination. Maybe add empathy ? Not sure for that one, that seems exhausting. Better recognition of all my emotions.


Se, inferior Fe.




> *8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?*
> I acknowledge them then proceed to put them temporarily aside to think clearly, and maybe, maybe, consider them again. I don't really know when they're triggered… when something or someone new enters my life, they help constructing judgements about it.


Ti, Ni.




> *9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?*
> a) Reading, researching, playing (video) games, listening to music, seeing my sister, seeing a few friends, working on systems I guess.
> b) Anything that involves being around 15+ people, seeing my non-sister family (no idea why, maybe because of small talk), meeting new people, working with more than 2 people, arguing with irrational/emotive people.


Se, inferior Fe.




> *10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?*
> My first impressions, my lack of care for people's personal problems, a lot of thoughts, some jokes, my feelings. My awkwardness when female acquaintances greet with a shake of hand instead of a kiss on the cheek (*we play games/study/work together lady, that's close enough*).


Inferior Fe.

I don't see how there could be any argument here, to be honest. You're practically textbook ISTP.


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## yumchesspie (Jun 30, 2014)

So Ne is seeing hidden meanings? I read from others sources that Ni does that. Or do they both do it? Which one is linked to paranoia?


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## xnewix (Apr 17, 2014)

Ni is more hidden meanings not Ne


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## Lonewaer (Jul 14, 2014)

Hmm… I am still not sure where to put hidden meanings, Ne or Ni. Ni seems more appropriate, because many circumstances would lead to a single conclusion, which would be the hidden meaning ; while Ne would start from a single observation, and rather deduce many possible conclusions… if I am not mistaken.

I have been reading about ISTPs, and found that I _somewhat_ related with the general description. However, while browsing ISTP section, I must say I don't seem to relate that much, if at all concerning non-IxTx specifics… Yeah that's it, I relate to IxTx things, but for the rest… I really don't know. Se is still high, as I don't bump into things, I notice things, hear stuff… but that's all.
I understand why you would come to that conclusion, @Moya, considering my prevalent functions, but it disturbs me that I still relate more to INTxs.

My dad seriously sticks with the descriptions and ISTPs in their section though, and I am nothing like him.


Do P/J manifest themselves somehow, or is this just a matter of looking if the auxiliary function is a P one or a J one ?


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