# Socionics Visual Identification (VI)



## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Some Socionics practitioners employ a method referred to as "visual identification" or VI for short. They try to identify someone's socio-type based on that person's outward appearance. VI has always been a hotbed of controversy with some people completely dismissing it, others advertising it as a working method (Filatova has even taken pictures of each type).


What are your thoughts on this method for finding out types?


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## fsbeats17 (Oct 14, 2012)

You can tell a lot about a person just by looking at them for a few minutes... Not so much a picture.
Some call it judging a book by its cover
It may sound very aloof but to some its become second nature especially if you know your types. 


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

I should be an INFp, INFj, or ENTp going by their pictures.

INTp are allergic to smiling. Probably because they realized the picture was going to look like a picture of the MIA or POW.

http://www.mostfreebies.com/WorldWar2/Prisoners.php


More generally I still think it's hogwash. How you look in a picture is probably more to do with enneagram. And even then that would be a looser correlation than habits picked up as a youth.


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> VI has always been a hotbed of controversy with some people completely dismissing it, others advertising it as a working method (Filatova has even taken pictures of each type).
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts on this method for finding out types?


I don't really have a strong opinion. I guess it's possible to determine someone's personality traits based on their body language etc., but photos? I'm not sure.


As for the link:
SEIs have nice smiles and some of these people look stoned
ILEs look like they're going to come up with a witty comeback in a second
LIIs look adorable in a "take the camera away from me please" way
ESEs smiles vary between charming and creepy
LSIs look like they could kill you with their eyes
EIEs look like early 90s singers
IEIs look endearing and huggable
SLEs look like they shoot first and ask questions later
ILIs look scared of the camera
SEEs look like TV celebrities with those smiles
ESIs look like they want to punch you in the face
LIEs look like they're up to something
EIIs look like nice people with dirty secrets
LSEs look like they hold the world in contempt
SLIs look mildly disgusted
IEEs look like they're in a middle of telling a joke
none look like me



Elyasis said:


> How you look in a picture is probably more to do with enneagram.


How so?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I have quite a bit to say about this subject because I've been studying people's facial expressions and how they way they come off (and want to come off as) to others for some time now, and how this relates to type. For example, there's a tendency about MBTI Fi users to not smile with their entire face but Fe users do. Fi users tend to be more stern in how they look, like they are restraining themselves somehow. 

There's also definitely a tendency among NTP types to have a very specific way of grinning. I think there's a reason the INTP is associated as being the nutty professor kind of type for example. When you let the INTP loose on the nerping, we come up with such crazy ideas and we won't stop developing them. Let's look at Youtuber thatzak for example. While he always dresses proper and all that, there's just something about him that screams crazy in a kind of low profile way: 






And this is a tendency I've found to be common among all INTPs I've typed, celebrity or non-celebrity. Look at Tobey Maguire and Edward Norton (I've speedtyped both as INTPs):











Maybe it's better to find a video of Norton without a beard:






Also, INTPs tend to not actually look at the person interviewing them, although I think enneagram plays a bit of a role here. 

NTPs just seem to have this vibe that they will pull a prank on you at any given moment. Think Fred and George from Harry Potter. Both two good examples of stereotype ENTPs too. ENTPs also tend to have these amazing grins. INTPs are more restrained and more with the spark in the eye. 

Then there's also how enneagram seems to play a large role in how people come off. Strong enneagram 4s such as myself tend to have more of the NF dreamy vibe about them. I've noticed a tendency among 4s in general in the way they tend to kind of cock their heads in photographs and give off the impression of being there but not being there, using myself as a bit of an example, although I think my core 5 is shining through: 










Then of course, the way how people dress is largely influenced by enneagram. You can really see that the way I dress is inspired by 4 with a bit of 3 in there. Even though I'm an INTP, it's obvious Norton, Maguire and thatzak are not core 4s or even have it as a strong wing or secondary fix. I'd wager they are probably either 2 or 3 fixes. Maguire seems to be a strong 2-fixer, thatzak leaning more towards 3 and same with Norton. Norton also seems to be a 6w5 with a strong 8 gut fix. 

Then there's also the whole instincts variants thing and how it plays out with how people appear as. I do of course prefer interviews because you get a better impression of the people you're typing. If you for example look at Norton and thatzak that I both typed as so/sx, you will see how they have a certain intensity and drive going on, but with Maguire who seems more so/sp (also, his gut fix seems to be 9 so there's also that aspect of it, I think thatzak also got an 8 gut fix but it seems to come last), he just seems overall more friendly and less aggressive. So/sx have more of this vibe of social domination and control - they know how to manage the social sphere and create sexual tensity (in enneagram-sense) with people around them. They are dramatic and grandiose (I think this is emphasized with 8 fix too) whereas so/sp are very more friendly and low-profile. Hug-material. 

Not sure if I am making any sense at all or not, but I think it is possible to very much type people, especially enneagram-wise, with how they come off. I mean, look at danisnotonfire who seems to be an ENTP 4 for example. He's 4-ness is very apparent in pretty much everything he does (self-pity, why is the world against me?! kind of logic):






I think it's hard to become more obviously 4 than danisnotonfire. So why not ENFP or INP? Because he's for one much too energic to be one. He obviously gets more energy from generating ideas than analyzing ideas and his analysis is not very deep. Also, the F that is seen is clearly Fe. This is more apparent in the video he devotes to explaining why he thinks he's socially awkward and why he lost his part-time jobs because of it. Immature Fi types tend to not really be aware of or even give a damn about social rules and expectations. Dan does. In the video I posted he also does some very Ti-esque stuff, like when he mentions that drama is when people type in caps lock on the internet. Also, whether he's aware of it or not, he subtly has the ENTP grin but I think it's very much low-profile due to his enneagram 4w5-ness. I actually always think of @NovaStar when I see danisnotonfire. I wonder if NovaStar is a 4 core too XD 

Anyway, I rambled.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Addendum. Felt like adding David Hewlett on that list too because he also tends to star INTPs in his roles, heh:






Hewlett actually seems to be a 5 core with a 3 fix. So/sx with a very weak sx seems about right.


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I actually always think of @_NovaStar_ when I see danisnotonfire. I wonder if NovaStar is a 4 core too XD
> 
> Anyway, I rambled.



* *




Actually, I never once tested 4. Although I do have many of the same desires (and the lack of fear in the emotions department), I believe I have an easier time with routine over drama. Over the past number of years, I've been very content because I avoided drama like the plague, despite the fact that very few 'new' things occurred. I usually put down drama before it even started. However, when the drama is in your immediate family and you have no way of getting away from it, then yeah, you're basically forced into it. And dealing with this kind of crap would be far easier if my family would just stand back and analyze their actions. I've purposefully cut myself off emotionally from them, as I have friends that tried to drag me into their drama; 4s don't normally do this according to the official definition.

Another issue with 4 is that it desires to be unique. I suppose in a sense I do, but I don't desire uniqueness for it's own sake. My philosophy was built off of a constant analysis of things around me, not spur of the moment decisions. In fact, I'm still building my personal philosophy today. I try to be relatively pragmatic, but only if I can avoid long-term consequences in the process. Actions that lead to short-term consequences are fine, so long as the long-term gain is greater.

However, much of type 4 does ring true with me. I compared the desires/fears and determined this: type 4's wants don't ring true with me at all. Although I like individuality, it isn't my primary goal. Type 7s purportedly seek self-confidence, patience, and limitless options, and that makes more sense in my case. I seek self-confidence through my philosophy (I usually overdo it); same with my patience (although I still jump the gun out of over-eagerness); keeping my options open _is _important, but not when it comes to emotion. Here's why:

Type 4s fear a lack of direction; they hate not having a purpose. This I know I have. Type 4s also hate being emotionally cut off. On the other hand, type 7s hate boredom, sadness, and _emotional pain_ (the chances of this happening are increased with a higher number of deeply emotional experiences). Ironically, I have ALL these fears - both the type 4 and 7 fears. 7s, however, specifically tend to retreat to their future plans when things go wrong, and these expectations for the future guide 7s through life. 4s seem to focus more on the present and their abilities now, whereas 7s seem to think of their abilities later. This is where the divide is. I have a lot of 4 traits, it seems, but even more 7 traits. Now if only I really knew what that meant.




Also, David Hewlett is badass. I still think McKay is an xNTP.

On this topic, I'm holding my opinion for the moment. I don't think there's enough evidence to say personality is completely natural. In fact, I've noticed a few cases where at least several major elements of a personality were forged with time. I take a stance between 'Neurology'/Sociology on this, but I'm admittedly leaning toward Sociology at the moment. And if you don't get it, know that appearance is determined genetically, so yes - if personality and appearance are interlinked, then that means genetics make an even greater difference in determining an individual's personality.

Of course, you could get injured and deform your appearance or something. Or do what they do in some countries and flatten your head as you grow older. Very interesting how appearance can also be affected by both natural and artificial causes. But I think barring the obvious artificial obstacles, appearance is completely natural.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

NovaStar said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well, a strong image fix then  I never said you're a core 4 by the way, but the way you come off overall is actually very 4-ish. You have a very similar vibe to danisnotonfire.


> Also, David Hewlett is badass. I still think McKay is an xNTP.


Worth in Cube was definitely as stereotypically 5w6 sp/so INTP as you could get though, heh.


> On this topic, I'm holding my opinion for the moment. I don't think there's enough evidence to say personality is completely natural. In fact, I've noticed a few cases where at least several major elements of a personality were forged with time. I take a stance between 'Neurology'/Sociology on this, but I'm admittedly leaning toward Sociology at the moment. And if you don't get it, know that appearance is determined genetically, so yes - if personality and appearance are interlinked, then that means genetics make an even greater difference in determining an individual's personality.
> 
> Of course, you could get injured and deform your appearance or something. Or do what they do in some countries and flatten your head as you grow older. Very interesting how appearance can also be affected by both natural and artificial causes. But I think barring the obvious artificial obstacles, appearance is completely natural.


Yeah, I don't focus so much on eye-shape and stuff like is usually common in VI, but more on vibes and how people kind of come off in general. Very intuitive as a process. I have yet to be able to verbalize why I think thatzak and Edward Norton look similar for example. But they do in this weird way. Even though they obviously don't share genetics at all.


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Even though they obviously don't share genetics at all.


The human gene pool is surprisingly small. I bet if you looked hard enough, you could find your lookalike out there. Already found mine; he's *gasp* Swedish! Ironic that part of my ancestors came from Sweden.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

NovaStar said:


> The human gene pool is surprisingly small. I bet if you looked hard enough, you could find your lookalike out there. Already found mine; he's *gasp* Swedish! Ironic that part of my ancestors came from Sweden.


That is true, but I think that is more true for you Caucasians than us Asians  We tend to be a little more genetically prolific. So you are suggesting that there are possible biological implications when it comes to type? Does your look-alike share your type?


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

LeaT said:


> That is true, but I think that is more true for you Caucasians than us Asians  We tend to be a little more genetically prolific. So you are suggesting that there are possible biological implications when it comes to type? Does your look-alike share your type?


I didn't get to know him. He doesn't speak English well.

Anyway, I highly doubt that type and biology go hand-in-hand - not in it's entirety anyway. I think personality develops more from an environmental standpoint than a natural/genetic one. In that same vein, I can't believe that biological appearance is affected by personality. Choice in clothing, hairstyles, etc. are direct results of personalities interacting with the environment, but I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the body adapts to the personality of the user.


* *




Oh yeah, you need to see this guy:






And this guy:


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## StellarTwirl (Jul 1, 2012)

aconite said:


> As for the link:
> SEIs have nice smiles and some of these people look stoned
> ILEs look like they're going to come up with a witty comeback in a second
> LIIs look adorable in a "take the camera away from me please" way
> ...



I went through those pics before, writing out the messages I heard from the combination of the photos and type descriptions. I don't have it anymore, but I remember assigning ESI something like "Oh yeah? Well fuck you, buddy." The reverse of this was ESE's "Well, I'm just so pleased now that YOU'RE here!" 

And there's something particular about the ILI eyes ... like they've been given priority ... almost like the rest of their face only exists as a place to put their eyeballs.

I also don't look like these people, but there are certain types (such as ENTj or ISTj) I can visually rule out because I clearly don't "hold my face" the same way they do. I'd also rule out ENFp this way.



As far as the theory itself, my stance is: whatever works. At the very least, it's interesting.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


*{ edit }*

This _could_ totally be enneagram related! The ESE thing sounds like enneagram 2. The ESI thing sounds like counterphobic 6! And the IEEs would be 7s!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

StellarTwirl said:


> *{ edit }*
> 
> This _could_ totally be enneagram related! The ESE thing sounds like enneagram 2. The ESI thing sounds like counterphobic 6! And the IEEs would be 7s!


I've also noticed that, yes. Fe dominance in general seems described to be very 2-ish which is why I think anyone into typing should learn at least enneagram in tandem with socionics/MBTI, because it will vastly deepen your understanding of the human psyche and be more accurate in your typing because it's easier to spot what's enneagram-related and what's function-related.


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I've also noticed that, yes. Fe dominance in general seems described to be very 2-ish which is why I think anyone into typing should learn at least enneagram in tandem with socionics/MBTI, because it will vastly deepen your understanding of the human psyche and be more accurate in your typing because it's easier to spot what's enneagram-related and what's function-related.


In MBTI, yeah, there's a strong correlation between Fe and Type 2. Socionics' Fe is a little bit different, though. Fe in Alpha types is kinda 2-ish, but Fe in Beta is more 4-ish (the DRAMA!).

And I agree about the usefulness of the Enneagram. Jung-based systems tell you how do you do things, the E-gram tells you why.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

aconite said:


> In MBTI, yeah, there's a strong correlation between Fe and Type 2. Socionics' Fe is a little bit different, though. Fe in Alpha types is kinda 2-ish, but Fe in Beta is more 4-ish (the DRAMA!).
> 
> And I agree about the usefulness of the Enneagram. Jung-based systems tell you how do you do things, the E-gram tells you why.


I agree. I am not too comfortable discerning between the socionics and MBTI descriptions of functions yet to make a judgement, but ESFJ is for example the cookie cutter example of enneagram 2 in MBTI type descriptions. INTPs tend to similarly be stereotyped as 5s, Fi dominants 4s and so on.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Elyasis said:


> More generally I still think it's hogwash. How you look in a picture is probably more to do with enneagram. And even then that would be a looser correlation than habits picked up as a youth.


I think it's a combination of all of your types - Socionics, Enneagram, and even instincts seem to impart certain features.
Someone on Socionics board said that for VIing one should look at expression in person's eyes rather than their entire face. Sounds more accurate this way.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> I think it's a combination of all of your types - Socionics, Enneagram, and even instincts seem to impart certain features.
> Someone on Socionics board said that for VIing one should look at expression in person's eyes rather than their entire face. Sounds more accurate this way.


Expressions could just be the individual reacting to the environment. I don't think any one type has a signature "look". Like most things you have to learn it over time and not at first glance.


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> I think it's a combination of all of your types - Socionics, Enneagram, and even instincts seem to impart certain features.


Oh, I'm gonna steal that link and post it on the Enneagram subforum 

Speaking of composites...
The creepiest thing is that the INFp-Fe face does look like me. Uncannily so  Nevertheless, I find some of the celebrity typings kinda surprising.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

According to that link I look like female INFj Ne but I can also see INTj Ne. I don't know the difference  The confusion continues, argh.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

LeaT said:


> According to that link I look like female INFj Ne but I can also see INTj Ne. I don't know the difference  The confusion continues, argh.


your posts look very analytical so some Ixxj type is likely for you
have you looked into Reinin dichotomies for INTj/INFj differences? they differ on a few
Reinin dichotomies - Wikisocion
Socionics - the16types.info - Reinin Dichtomies


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cyamitide said:


> your posts look very analytical so some Ixxj type is likely for you
> have you looked into Reinin dichotomies for INTj/INFj differences? they differ on a few
> Reinin dichotomies - Wikisocion
> Socionics - the16types.info - Reinin Dichtomies


Not sure how to make out of that. I seem to fall borderline in some cases. Sometimes I lean very strongly towards LII and others more towards EII... I think there was overall a bit more of a tendency to LII but I need to analyze it more deeply first.


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

i think this is a really good example of Fi types (specially Se) and their looks, yeah sure don't let you get away because of the ambience try to focus on their expressions.






i think the first one is probably an ESFP, you can see how his attitude is much more agressive towards the camera and you can see it in his gestures, the way he compresses his eyebrows and twists his mouth. Also you can see that since he's a perciever he's much more waving with the exterior world, like he is part of the wave of the world. 

The second one, (the bald guy, Kpu) is also obviously an Fi, but i think he's a dom Fi, you can see how he is much less expresive than the first one, his eyes are really focused but they don't express anything, all his expression comes from his mouth. Eyes are like hanging there present here at this moment. I could see Si in him but mmm i would go with Fi-Se.










The third one is Canserbero, i can't quite figure out if INTJ or XNFP, his eyes like the predecesor are quite unexpressive but they do look as if they were up to something beyond what's surrounding him. He uses a bit more his eye brows, perhaps adopting a less agressive posture more like a dog attitude instead of a cat, arched eyebrows perhaps it is the reason i could picture him as an NFP. I'm sure he's an intuitive.










The last one Lil Supa, could possibly be an ISTP or possibly ISTJ, his eyebrows are more straight going up which i relate to Te i'm not really sure if his attitude is because of an enneagram 4 thing so may appear as an Fi. His whole attitude is i'm here watching how you burn in a warm safe place drinking a cold beer.


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