# Intuitives and Abstract/Symbolic Thinking-- A Sensing Asks!



## Hastings (Jan 8, 2011)

Eos said:


> If you have yet to see this video it will help clarify the differences in thinking between N and S.


I think this guy is kind of derogatory.


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## wandai (Feb 8, 2011)

There are a couple of things that you need to consider here, like the following.
1. Ni versus Ne. 
2. Dominant versus auxiliary.
3. The influence of the dominant function (for auxiliary iNtuitive).
4. User maturity and background (May not be pertinent to the discussion though).

Since your functions are TeSiNeFi, it may be more appropriate to talk about Ne instead of Ni. Anyway.

I'm TiNe, which means I'm auxiliary Ne user. My experience will be different compared to Ni user, Ne dominant user, and FiNe user. Even other TiNe user will have different experience due to different background and level of maturity.

When people present me with something, say an observation, I could not help but to think about different outcomes available from that observation. In addition, I'm curious about why s/he present the observation, and how s/he say it. 

For example, it is 24 degree Celsius cloudy weather.
People: Nice weather isn't it?
Me: _It's cloudy and therefore it may be a good weather for a read in the park. It feels colder than the usual weather though. Then again, it may be due to the clouds. Will it be raining today? How about the weather conditions in the past few days? Wait, why do this person comments about the weather? Maybe this person wants to make a small talk. After all, weather is one of the most common things to talk about in social setting. Another thing to talk about is the well-being of the person. Or how's the day going for that person. Maybe this person is bored and looking for some conversational partner to pass some time. Usually it will be raining cats and dogs in these time of the year. I'm guessing I should be grateful that it's cloudy today instead of raining._
Me: Yes, it is a nice. The weather, I mean.

The _italics_ represent the things I think about when people present verbally some observation. Though it is more scattered and oftentimes, abruptly stop in the middle of nowhere. 

An usual disclaimer: My thought pattern may be different under different state, circumstance and tasks involved.


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## hasenj (Sep 23, 2010)

I remember one situation from when I was a kid, I learned a strange bit of information: water boils at a higher temperature when in a pressure pan. I asked my dad (ESTJ) about why is that, he said "because it's under pressure". I was like .. wtf?

In retrospect (looking back), the kind of answer I wanted was something like this:

_Even though you think water boils at 100 degrees, that's not really true. The state of water between ice/liquid/gas depends not only on the temperature, but on the pressure too._

Notice what that statement does. It "fixes" my mental model about the thing. Before, I used to think: water freezes at 0 and boils at 100. But now, I've fixed that by adding an extra variable: pressure. The 0-100 thing is only under normal/usual pressure.

Before, the pressure pan thing seemed like a really odd exception to the rule. But now, it's a very normal consequence of the rules.

Though again I guess this has more to do with Ti than Ne.


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## shedreamt (Nov 7, 2011)

With dom Ne at work--my default state--I have a running internal monologue of free association going on. If the environment carries no new information (say I am walking through a hallway I pass through every day) I am usually imagining possible outcomes of my tentative plan for the day or some problem that had been weighing on me emotionally. 

Example of my train if thought which is Ne filtered by Fi-
(Walking through a hallway at my university research building) If x prospective love interest decides to go to office hours instead of sit at his usual take? He might do that since he seems agitated today, but he hasn't ever gone before so why would he start now? I should go see Professor Smith about that proposal outline, but it's not completely finished so he might be dismissive and think I haven't done much work at all on it. Why would he think that though considering my huge list of sources, but still, he cares more about structure than content according to that critique of my first draft. Still, he contradicted that in his latest corrections of my paper, didn't he? Saying my structure was good but content was lacking. I will just sit down here at my usual...but someone's already there, ugh! Would it be weird to sit in the same general vicinity even though I would normally have no reason to? The reasons the heart has, the mind knows... er, how does that idiom go? Why can't I remember that? It was in a book with that poem about walking in the light, and I can almost picture it on the page in my minds eye, gah. The structure of the sentence involved a contrast made, so heart if the opposite of...mind? No, the heart has reasons that... reason knows nothing of! That has the right ring to it. Was that really it though? How does that even make sense? Reason is synonymous with brain in this context... or maybe the concept of reasoning itself? Reason knows nothing of, anthropomorphizing Reason. Why not just switch "brain" for reason to make a more even parallel? Ugh how cold and clinical that sounds. Why isn't he here yet? So the outline needs the second section shifted to the bottom of the paper so the sequence of ideas is more linear. Does moving this paragraph up there look right? Who is that talking so... its HIM and he's sitting with that Asian man he said hi to the other day. Why us he speaking loudly enough to get my attention through head phones? Does he know I'm sitting right behind him? The socialization of cats is supported by what evidence...what changes happened shaping the morphology of their common ancestor to yield the modern feline? Aggressive ancestors, docile house cats, differing in build and temperament... but is the change in temperament due to their brain shape and biological factors or simply training? Has to be brain shape since animal instinct causes trained chimps to attack people, so I'll Google scholar papers about feline temperament brain structure. I'll just reach down and take a sip of my coffee as an excuse to look around the room...

Thats a typical chunk of my mental discourse. My Ne is obviously not targeted toward being productive here but its far easier to portray NeFi when talking about how Ne operates. I tried to show how Ne jumps around from the present to the past database of stored experiences, from the macro level perspective to the micro object oriented view, making connections and associating qualities with other qualities, switching between the three or four simultaneous processes I have going on in my minds eye. Multi tasking its my default state, manageable due to the visual map in my head that creates a picture of everything that needs to be done with the pathways being the fuzzy part. I don't plan how to get from point A to point B because I am always changing directions and refining the end product and you can't very well stay on the same straight path if your desired outcome is constantly changing. If you are not a visual spatial thinker I don't think it will be productive to try to use more Ne because it will be too taxing and not time efficient. Its wonderful that you can think linearly though. It is required for jobs that fulfill different niche in society that someone like me would never be able to handle!


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## TJSeabury (Nov 23, 2010)

cactus_waltz said:


> I think this guy is kind of derogatory.


It's not derogatory if its true; and does it really matter as long as the info is sound?


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

shedreamt said:


> With dom Ne at work--my default state--I have a running internal monologue of free association going on. If the environment carries no new information (say I am walking through a hallway I pass through every day) I am usually imagining possible outcomes of my tentative plan for the day or some problem that had been weighing on me emotionally. What if x prospective love interest decides to go to office hours instead of sit at his usual take? He might do that since he seems agitated today, but he hasn't ever gone before so why would he start now? I should go see Professor Smith about that proposal outline, but it's not completely finished so he might be dismissive and think I haven't done much work at all on it. Why would he think that though considering my huge list of sources, but still, he cares more about structure than content according to that critique of my first draft. Still, he contradicted that in his latest corrections of my paper, didn't he? Saying my structure was good but content was lacking. He's such a badass with his Pandora always playing during our meetings. He must get distracted without background noise, like me. He could be my quirky mad scientist uncle with those antics. I will just sit down here at my usual...but someone's already there, ugh! Would it be weird to sit in the same general vicinity even though I would normally have no reason to? The reasons the heart has, the mind knows... er, how does that idiom go? Why can't I remember that? It was in a book with that poem about walking in the light, and I can almost picture it on the page in my minds eye, gah. The structure of the sentence involved a contrast made, so heart if the opposite of...mind? No, the heart has reasons that... reason knows nothing of! That has the right ring to it. Was that really it though? How does that even make sense? Reason is synonymous with brain in this context... or maybe the concept of reasoning itself? Reason knows nothing of, anthropomorphizing Reason. Why not just switch "brain" for reason to make a more even parallel? Ugh how cold and clinical that sounds. Why isn't he here yet? He will be here...he always is lately. So the outline needs the second section shifted to the bottom of the paper so the sequence of ideas is more linear. Does moving this paragraph up there look right? Who is that talking so... its HIM and he's sitting with that Asian man he said hi to the other day. He's more animated than usual and loud enough to get my attention through head phones. Does he know I'm sitting right behind him? Is that why he's carrying on like this...to get my attention! But he always studies here and still hasn't made eye contacHE LOOKED BACK! He was looking right at me looking at him! Romeo and Juliet looking through the fish tank with that Desiree song playing. How long should I stay here pretending to work on this paper? Will he get up soon? The socialization of cats is supported by what evidence...what changes happened shaping the morphology of their common ancestor to yield the modern feline? Aggressive ancestors, docile house cats, differing in build and temperament... but is the change in temperament due to their brain shape and biological factors or simply training? Has to be brain shape since animal instinct causes trained chimps to attack people, so I'll Google scholar papers about feline temperament brain structure. I'll just reach down and take a sip of my coffee as an excuse to look around the room... still there. When we date someday I'll be in his apartment that looks like a fusion of my old school dorm and my parents living room with black furniture and it's clean not messy, maybe even with candles since he seems unafraid of defying gender norms, a guitar in the corner and we'll have mugs of tea...he drank green tea and mentioned sleepytime tea to that stoner friend of his how sweet and sensitive, a tea drinker, his arm around me staring into my soul with those pale eyes like the eyes of my former research advisor, another sweet sensitive beta male. What is it about pale green eyes? It gives that appearance of depth to human expression but it is totally superficial and I don't know this guy at all on a personal level. Stop it. He is probably not assertive and I bet he's passive aggressive too. Remember how awful it felt dating that passive types of men who never stood up to me and had me making all the decisions? But they're so different, with my exes being so rigid and cold and this guy being so warm. If I hadn't dated a few losers I would never have learned the qualities I loathed...everything works out so well, for the best really, no matter how badly the heart is broken. Que sera sera. Wasn't that exactly one year ago? What day is it? Yes, it was a year ago when we broke up and now things are coming full circle. This is supposed to be happening right now! It fits into the framework of the journey towards my self actualization with him being a catalyst. A reaction on the macroscopic level between two souls with my activation energy hill being lowered with him around making this turning point in my life easier to adjust to. But still that nagging feeling... I really know nothing about him and need to focus on this paper because God wants me to fulfill my destiny and he's distracting me now more than he is positively influencing me, focus, focus! It will work out whether it's meant to or whether he is a blip on my radar in the grand scheme of things. God put him in my life to motivate me this first month here in this new city at a strange school and he's served his purpose now just like other people in my life who influenced my personal growth so I won't think about him any moreHE'S WALKING! Walking away, slowly, not quickly or with determination, like he has to be somewhere. Should I follow him and ask him a question about class? Would that be trying too hard? He looked right at me though, but before he had approached me, so why isn't... that would make it even then, a push-pull, not creepy of me to approach! Phew ::gets out of chair and strides across hallway:: "Hey! Can I borrow that chemistry text you mentioned?"
> 
> Thats a typical chunk of my mental discourse. My Ne is obviously not targeted toward being productive here but its far easier to portray NeFi when talking about how Ne operates. I tried to show how Ne jumps around from the present to the past database of stored experiences, from the macro level perspective to the micro object oriented view, making connections and associating qualities with other qualities, switching between the three or four simultaneous processes I have going on in my minds eye. Multi tasking its my default state, manageable due to the visual map in my head that creates a picture of everything that needs to be done with the pathways being the fuzzy part. I don't plan how to get from point A to point B because I am always changing directions and refining the end product and you can't very well stay on the same straight path if your desired outcome is constantly changing. If you are not a visual spatial thinker I don't think it will be productive to try to use more Ne because it will be too taxing and not time efficient. Its wonderful that you can think linearly though. It is required for jobs that fulfill different niche in society that someone like me would never be able to handle!


Seriously ? ha!! Not to rain on your parade, i can't imagine trying to read that without going completely blind. Paragraphs , it needs many many paragraphs.

With that being said i love the way you expressed yourself. Ne is a beautiful thing, we can go on rants like no other. Believe me, i've done it many times. I actually did read it ....and was mostly teasing you. Nicely put, thanks for sharing your thoughts


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## Hastings (Jan 8, 2011)

Eos said:


> It's not derogatory if its true; and does it really matter as long as the info is sound?


Even truth can be delivered with tact.


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## TJSeabury (Nov 23, 2010)

cactus_waltz said:


> Even truth can be delivered with tact.


Yes, but he's an INTJ. That's fairly tactful if you ask me.


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## shedreamt (Nov 7, 2011)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Seriously ? ha!! Not to rain on your parade, i can't imagine trying to read that without going completely blind. Paragraphs , it needs many many paragraphs.


Lol I know right? IMO it wouldn't fit with rendering an Ne dom thought process into stream of consciousness tho.  One's brain hopping from lily pad to lily pad in a pond of floating ideas isn't compartmentalized. Maybe its just my short attention span and not Ne at work.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

shedreamt said:


> Lol I know right? IMO it wouldn't fit with rendering an Ne dom thought process into stream of consciousness tho.  One's brain hopping from lily pad to lily pad in a pond of floating ideas isn't compartmentalized. Maybe its just my short attention span and not Ne at work.


Maybe you had an Ne explosion


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

Well if it's pertinent, I'm interested in the sciences and/or technology.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

To give a really simple example that echoes what was said in the video:

Recently I was at a friends house and we were waiting for a 3rd friend to arrive and then we were all going to leave together. The friend I was with is an S. He says, "Wow it's getting late, I better hurry up and finish getting ready because last time John picked me up, he showed up early and I wasn't ready yet...and he didn't like that he had to wait."

That right there is ALL I NEEDED TO HEAR. That paints the whole picture for me. I can make a leap from that small statement about how they probably argued last time - I can intuitively infer that John was probably mad about waiting, how Sam was probably mad that John showed up too early, etc. I don't need to hear all those details about the actual disagreement, a detailed account of the conversation they had, etc, because I can put 2 and 2 together based on that small statement that they had an argument, there was conflict, and now Sam doesn't want that to happen again. I get it. I don't need any further details.

But, Sam goes on from there for about 5 minutes to tell me the whole entire story, word for word, that happened last time. "Yeah, so last time he said he was going to be at my house at 12 noon, so I was getting ready and he showed up at 11:45 and said 'are you ready to go'? And I said 'what do you mean John, you said you would be here at noon and you're 15 minutes early.' And he said 'well close enough...you should be ready...don't make me wait too much longer...i'm hungry and i want to eat'. And I couldn't believe it because I felt so rushed because I could see that he was getting angry. So, I want to avoid that this time...so I should probably go finish getting ready, so that I'm ready like 15-30 minutes before the time he said he would be here."

In the time it took to say all of that, he could have already finished getting ready. Plus, I didn't need any of that info. The very first sentence he said to me gave me all the information I needed. So, the whole time he's telling that detailed story, I'm thinking, "OK, I got it. Now just go get ready."

Another example would be accounting. My ISTJ buddy wants to analyze the exact numbers (dollars and cents) of a situation or of a company. When he buys something and they give him change...he counts the pennies. I do this too, but mostly I don't care about the pennies. If something costs $13.37 and I give the cashier a $20 bill, I just look to make sure that she gave me six dollars and *some change*. Then I know that she's "close enough". If she only gave me $3 change, then I know she's WAY off. As long as she's in the ballpark, then I'm not overly concerned if she accidentally shorted me a few cents. He's also a CPA, so when he's looking at the figures of a company, he'll say, "they're spending way too much on payroll." Again, that's all I need to know. That gives me a good "snapshot" of the situation - they're paying too much for payroll as a proportion of their overall expenses. Now I know the problem...that's all I need. But, he'll go on and on about the exact numbers - $438,679.31 out of $641,932.88 is spent on payroll, blah, blah, blah. He's a bean counter - that's his job and he's good at it...but N's mostly hate these small details. We just want to know the big picture: they are spending too much on payroll. That's it. End of story. We're able to analyze the numbers if we feel we need to, but that often feels like we're focusing on one single little tree rather than the whole forest.

Both skills are necessary in this world - big picture thinking and detail thinking.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

Another thing that intuition seems to do, is to allow the user to see both sides of an issue. A lot of my sensor friends, if you ask them a question such as "Do you think minimum wage should be raised?" They will either say "Yes" or "No". But a lot of my intuitive friends will say something like, "Well, it depends. There are some reasons that it's good and there are some reasons why it's bad. It really depends on what position you're coming from. I can't just give you a yes or no answer. It's much more complicated than that."


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

Eleventeenth, I get what you are saying. I don't have issues looking at both sides of an issue, or extrapolating a small piece of information to a larger scenario. 

However, when it comes to extrapolation, interestingly enough I've been told that I'm presumptions in my assessments that if I were in your friend's situation, to assume that he does not like people being late in general. I typically operate that way TBH, where I can detect patterns in people's behavior and make these kinds of generalizations. 

I'm talking about the whole "symbolic" abstract thinking and these mental models. This is more beyond me than the examples you mentioned, or the math example, because those tend to have concrete elements to them.


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## SalvinaZerelda (Aug 26, 2010)

I use "concepts" as search words to cause a rippling effect to activate new connections in my mind. I also like to describe it as a diving into a sea of data and being swept away by a current until I end up back on the shore. I dislike being brought back to the shore prematurely.
I seek Flow, where ideas run together so smoothly that it becomes a work of art.
Its addictive, and my head is always in the clouds as a result.
When I feel or think, I don't just feel or think, I "see" it vividly.

This place is a very fluid, ethereal realm..
Nothing is absolute and everything is possible and eternally changing.

Its like putting ingredients into a blender and getting a new concoction as a result.


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## Gumshoe (Dec 27, 2011)

What a wonderful question. As I am relatively new to this site, I've been finding a wealth of information on the topic of MBTI.
Of course, I find I can only read a little of it before the letters begin to cease to hold much meaning, as I have yet to correlate actual meaning to them. I understand them, but I am new enough to this MBTI language that I am uncomfortable thinking in the jumble of acronyms contained in this site.

I'll try and explain some of my thought processes a bit further, as I often find that I have to backtrack to explain just how I arrived at a certain idea or fact:

One process is what I call my 'shotgun approach.' If a problem I have holds many pieces of information that don't appear to have much in common, I think about them all at once. As I consciously explore two or three ideas, the others are pushed to the back of my mind to be worked on in a lesser capacity. By the time I am finished working over the first few ideas, I often find a thin connection that can be carefully explored.

Another 'process' is still a bit of a mystery: when faced with a problem, I often experience the answer or conclusion in a mental flash of light, and am forced to reverse engineer my conclusions, in order to explain how I arrived at the conclusion.

There are some times that I cannot tackle an issue head-on; there is information missing or there have been too many people there before me, and they've muddied the boundaries beyond recognition. I must look beyond the box by removing it from the equation. Does the mind have peripheral vision? It does, and it allows me to sneak up on a problem by seeing it from the corner of my mind's eye far more clearly than if I look at it head-on.

There are also times when I am simply too tired to tackle an issue. Some problems have infinite corners. In those cases, I just go to bed. I usually don't know the answer until I get back to work and I open mouth. The answer comes out, and I have to try and reverse steps on the fly in order to explain how I arrived at the conclusion.

I'm not always right. There are a lot of things I miss. I believe I am more right than wrong, however.


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## shedreamt (Nov 7, 2011)

Gumshoe said:


> What a wonderful question. As I am relatively new to this site, I've been finding a wealth of information on the topic of MBTI.
> Of course, I find I can only read a little of it before the letters begin to cease to hold much meaning, as I have yet to correlate actual meaning to them. I understand them, but I am new enough to this MBTI language that I am uncomfortable thinking in the jumble of acronyms contained in this site.
> 
> I'll try and explain some of my thought processes a bit further, as I often find that I have to backtrack to explain just how I arrived at a certain idea or fact:
> ...


Introverted intuition is so fascinating to me. Thanks for that description. You use your minds peripheral vision, hm? Interesting metaphor.


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## metalme (Jan 5, 2012)

snapdragons said:


> How do you "read between the lines"? what's considered abstract or symbolic thinking? When you are conscious of it, how would you describe what is happening?


You do it by putting the pieces to the puzzle together and it's like a riddle, where your focus is the plot rather than the immediate physical elements of the environment. When watching a movie for example, the focus is on who said what, rather than how it was said, and what each person was wearing when they said it, and the exact look on their faces when they exclaimed such and such, lol. So what's happening is, a joining together of the pieces of the puzzle to form meaning and figure out what each person is about, and why they do the things they do. That's why intuitives are better at reading between the lines.... because they actually take the time to figure out the lines, rather than just staring at them.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

These "mental flashes" are definitely not something I experience. I have experienced "epiphanies" but not what is described here.


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## Eleventeenth (Aug 24, 2011)

snapdragons said:


> I'm talking about the whole "symbolic" abstract thinking and these mental models. This is more beyond me than the examples you mentioned, or the math example, because those tend to have concrete elements to them.


Well, I think a lot of N's naturally look for overarching themes to things. In your OP, you mentioned works of literature. So, when reading one of the classics, or any piece of work for that matter, the story usually "represents" some overarching theme or truth that is applicable to life itself. It's like the literature is a microcosm, or a small example, of some universal truth. There is a lesson to be learned in many of these themes. Whether it's "treat people well and good things will come back to you" or "stay true to yourself at all costs", etc, etc. 

So, when reading something...or when watching a movie...or looking at a piece of art...or whatever...N's will often ask themselves, "what is the lesson to be learned here?" "What does this mean?" "What is this story symbolic of...in terms of the larger picture of life? In the grand scheme of things, what does it all mean?" I think many N's enjoy doing this...drawing analogies to the bigger picture...and determining what something really means. When I read a book, I often don't remember details of the book...I forget the names of the characters, I forget exactly how old they were or what exactly they said...or what city they lived in, etc. But when I get done reading it, I'm able to draw an analogy to every day life...and I'm able to decipher what the real lesson is in the book...what it is symbolic of. Or even incorporate it into a bigger life model. I'm able to say things like, "This book represents the idea that you should treat people kindly, or as you'd want to be treated, and then you'll get that same treatment in return." Or, "there are so many variables and inputs in running a successful business...there is not exact formula." Or sometimes I come away thinking, "Oh wow, I really learned that I'm doing something wrong in my life. I had never thought about things from this perspective before, but this book really opened my eyes to a new way of thinking or living."

In fact, when I open a book, this is exactly what I'm looking for. When I open a book, I'm thinking, "Teach me something about life. What can I learn from this book that will give me more knowledge, a better understanding of the world, a better understanding of people, relationships, etc." I'm actually less interested in the specifics and details of the book. I'm looking for the overarching theme, the big picture, the lesson to be learned from the book. And so books or movies that don't really have an underlying theme are, frankly, quite boring and they lose my interest. That element has to be there so that I can make connections about the bigger picture of life. 

Hope that helps somewhat.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

@snapdragons

From what you have indicated throughout your postings in this thread, you are quite capable of using and understanding Ne well (most people are very capable of using their inferior function well if they are motivated enough), but it is Ni that alludes you, which, according to MBTI, etc., would be the function that you use the least as an Si dom. For instance, these would point toward Ni:



> I'm talking about the whole "symbolic" abstract thinking and these mental models. This is more beyond me than the examples you mentioned, or the math example, because those tend to have concrete elements to them.


The "whole symbolic abstract thinking and...mental models" would be in the realm of Ni, my dominant function as an INTJ, as well as this:



> These "mental flashes" are definitely not something I experience.


Ni epiphanies basically occur in "mental flashes," while Ne users are able to consciously trace back connections to a source to draw ideas and conclusions from it, since it is extroverted. The pattern detection you claim to use would be Ne, but if there is little to nothing symbolic about it in any way, it is not Ni (High Ne would be able to create symbols, but it doesn't operate on mental symbols to synthesize information and think through ideas, etc.). Very fascinating.


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## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

Here's a bit more information. In talking to an ISTJ, she had a realization of just what the difference is between Si and Ni. Here's her realization, and here's the beginning of the thread. It isn't long, and perhaps it will help you make more sense of Ni vs Si. (And a little bit about Ni-Se vs Ne-Si.)


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## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

snapdragons said:


> Yeah mkeath, can I get an example? I'm reading everyone's responses and at times think I'm trying to decipher another language.


It does seem like everyone here is describing intuition by using intuition with a lot of symbols, ideas, and vagueness.  I'll see if I can pull up an example for you. 

Here's one that I can compare to, and I'll quote it for you here as well.


> Here's a thought process I had walking to class: Oh look--they're building another crane..what do they need two for?..Ive always wondered how those were assembled. It looks like K'nex! Hmmm..I guess it wouldn't make sense to have the workers build it piece by piece, that would take as long to build as the building itself....and if the workers carried pre-built sections they would have to be made of a really light material--that probably would be too structurally weak to really be able to lift things...oh hey, they're using another crane to build the crane! Thats kinda silly, if you think about it. those cranes are really big...id be way too nervous to climb up them. A ladder into the sky would make me dizzy and afraid of falling. Like the video I saw of workers climbing a radio antenna..with no harnesses!! I'd be frozen in fear. The view would be amazing form up there though, like seeing things from an airplane. I remember the view from the times ive ridden/flew a small aircraft. that was so cool. AGH! Wind tunnel!!


Here's my (Ni) version:
_Oh look, they are building another crane! The university must have a lot of money on their hands, or else they really expect that program to grow a lot. They are getting all their money from college students like me... I don't like paying extra money to fund things like new buildings, but, in the long run, this will allow more students to go to school, and hopefully improve society. But then again, will it really? Supply and demand, is there demand for this sort of people? Is there really a lot of interest in this area? And will allowing more people to go through this program allow them all to get good jobs? Or will it just delude some, and water down the program for others? A lot of people struggle through challenging programs only to go back to trade school and learn a useful occupation, which is actually in high demand in our society._ 
The next time my brain might take a different tangent: _oh, looks like construction is still occurring. Well, that used to be a soccer field, and now we will have to play down in the muddy one near the river. However, this one was muddy enough when it was here. Well, they will have to consider drainage in the design of the building, probably hook some tiles up to the storm sewer, and it will all flow down to the river. Once again, urban development messes with storm event responses. I wonder if they are using roof catchment, or even that special pavement that allows water to seep in. That stuff is really cool.... ad nauseam  ._
It looks very similar to Si, and sounds similar, but you will probably notice the jumpiness and how my brain tends to think "sideways" rather than laterally, ie I appear to change tracks, but the two concepts are linked in my mind. Here's another example. 

How it works: 
According to Jung, what Si sees is the details. Si users notice and store all relevant details (it is their own perception of what occurred that is important). They connect experiences back to other experiences and check for similarities. Ni notices the opposite of the details. Ni notices the patterns and implications of the details, but not (or, at least, very rarely) the details themselves.

Jung proposes that all introverted functions have access to the collective unconscious, only Ni somehow is aware of the images and patterns stored in the collective unconscious more than other functions. This seems to suggest that everyone can and does have access to the collective unconscious, but how we are aware of it differs. 

In terms of technicality of how this works, I have no idea. It just happens. A lot of the times it is out of my control, but I can refine and judge my intuitions using Te. 

Say, for example, the famous poem about the yellow path diverging in the wood. He took the path less travelled by. I'm not sure how, but that is completely apparent to me that he made a life decision and took a path that few people would. However, I get myself into trouble because that is the "obvious" meaning for me, and I start looking for more "unobvious" meanings, as in why he wanted to take the other path, or what the divergence would have meant in his life, or why the one was less travelled (ie why is one life choice less chosen than others? What social influences might cause that?) So, perhaps one way to learn how to do this is to ask "What do people mean when they say that? What do they want, what do they expect, what are the underlying assumptions behind what is said?" 

HTH!

(feel free to correct me if I've said anything wrong.)


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## phantom_cat (Jan 1, 2011)

Si is like 1+2=3, where each individual number is some bit of information. It could be an event, action, etc.
Ni is like 1+x=3, same thing, but you see what x is. It almost feels like looking backwards or on towards the object. I'm guessing this is the perspective shifting upon the object/answer. It's basically asking "what's the most probable answer based on what I have?" Obviously, this math problem is simple, but don't think in terms of numbers, but the meaning that can be added to it. So another way to put it, Ni looks for the hidden answer.


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## Gumshoe (Dec 27, 2011)

listentothemountains said:


> It does seem like everyone here is describing intuition by using intuition with a lot of symbols, ideas, and vagueness.  I'll see if I can pull up an example for you.


My explanation was perfectly clear. Intuition does not always proceed as a chain of direct thoughts, as you know.

At least, mine does not. :wink:


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## Rainbow (Aug 30, 2010)

Well hi there. I'm a 50/50 mix of S and N...

Thinking in symbols is superstition. 
i.e, Whenever you see a diamond ring, it means your partner is being faithful, but whenever you see a broken ring, it means your partner is being unfaithful. 

Analogies and metaphors make it easy to explain to someone else how you experience emotions and feelings, by comparing the feeling to a real world scenario.
i.e, Comparing a bird to love because... Love can sit on your perch and enchant you but any day it may begin it's flight thus leaving you all alone.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

JungyesMBTIno said:


> @snapdragons
> 
> From what you have indicated throughout your postings in this thread, you are quite capable of using and understanding Ne well (most people are very capable of using their inferior function well if they are motivated enough), but it is Ni that alludes you, which, according to MBTI, etc., would be the function that you use the least as an Si dom. For instance, these would point toward Ni:
> 
> ...


Ooo you were psychoanalyzing me  

I can see where the Ne function would fit into the way I process information. It's definitely the symbols that alludes me...I am wondering how do people take the symbols and fit them into the way things are? For me, that would become frustrating because I would constantly have to change my symbols to accommodate for the real world. I have a hard enough time figuring people out.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

Eleventeenth said:


> Well, I think a lot of N's naturally look for overarching themes to things. In your OP, you mentioned works of literature. So, when reading one of the classics, or any piece of work for that matter, the story usually "represents" some overarching theme or truth that is applicable to life itself. It's like the literature is a microcosm, or a small example, of some universal truth. There is a lesson to be learned in many of these themes. Whether it's "treat people well and good things will come back to you" or "stay true to yourself at all costs", etc, etc.
> 
> So, when reading something...or when watching a movie...or looking at a piece of art...or whatever...N's will often ask themselves, "what is the lesson to be learned here?" "What does this mean?" "What is this story symbolic of...in terms of the larger picture of life? In the grand scheme of things, what does it all mean?" I think many N's enjoy doing this...drawing analogies to the bigger picture...and determining what something really means. When I read a book, I often don't remember details of the book...I forget the names of the characters, I forget exactly how old they were or what exactly they said...or what city they lived in, etc. But when I get done reading it, I'm able to draw an analogy to every day life...and I'm able to decipher what the real lesson is in the book...what it is symbolic of. Or even incorporate it into a bigger life model. I'm able to say things like, "This book represents the idea that you should treat people kindly, or as you'd want to be treated, and then you'll get that same treatment in return." Or, "there are so many variables and inputs in running a successful business...there is not exact formula." Or sometimes I come away thinking, "Oh wow, I really learned that I'm doing something wrong in my life. I had never thought about things from this perspective before, but this book really opened my eyes to a new way of thinking or living."
> 
> ...



@ Eleventeenth, This was a great explanation, thanks!

This could also explain why literature was still challenging to me in some respects because some authors were subtle in their themes and representations. "The Grapes of Wrath" was one that was rather challenging, along with "A Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man" because of the stream of consciousness. However, I'd "get" "A Room with a View," "Pride and Prejudice," and "Oliver Twist." I could make connections between recurring motifs because those were obvious to me, but other symbolism took more thinking.

I definitely don't naturally look for themes but once I notice something, it's much easier for me to make those kinds of connections.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

snapdragons said:


> Yeah mkeath, can I get an example? I'm reading everyone's responses and at times think I'm trying to decipher another language.


Just look at something and make an assumption about how it made. For example, a coffee cup. How is that made? Looking at the one on my desk I can know that the cup was formed in a mold, the handle was formed and scored in a mold, probably attached while still in the mold, fired, dipped in laquer, fired again, and had the logo imprinted. I know all of this based on intuition. I didn't look any of this up. The details don't matter. I have an understanding of how it was made.

As for my personal experience with Ne, I just see past what's readily apparent. I see how ideas connect, the various ways an idea can be approached, problems with an idea, etc. I see a tree, I see forces of gravity and the tree counter-acting one another, I think about Newtonian vs. Einsteinian physics, I think of the theory of relativity, I think of philosophical relativity, I think of Plato, I think of the allegory of the cave, I think of Schroedinger's cat, ad nauseum. Hope that helps.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

snapdragons said:


> It's definitely the symbols that alludes me...I am wondering how do people take the symbols and fit them into the way things are? For me, that would become frustrating because I would constantly have to change my symbols to accommodate for the real world.


For me, this is the central assumption that underscores the differences and your understanding. I don't change symbols to fit the real world, I change _my understanding_ of the real world to fit the symbols. It's like @listentothemountains riddle of which comes first, models or systems. I build the system (symbols) then make the world (models) fit.

Try this:

How do these images fit together? What is the connection and how does it relate to the real world? (Eye of Ra, Eye of God, Eye of Sauron)


























In my mind, these images are connected. There's the obvious physical appearance, the names, but deeper than that, there is the mythology. My interpretation of the mythology changed to accommodate these images being connected.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

ChanceyRose, thinking that way would give me a headache. In fact, I'm sort of getting one right now...

My tendency to understand the world is based on observations, patterns, and even numbers. I am one of those people who aer quick to employ the use of numerical patterns or the use of an ordered system. 

Oh gosh, my head is really being a pain...


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

snapdragons said:


> ChanceyRose, thinking that way would give me a headache. In fact, I'm sort of getting one right now...
> 
> My tendency to understand the world is based on observations, patterns, and even numbers. I am one of those people who aer quick to employ the use of numerical patterns or the use of an ordered system.
> 
> Oh gosh, my head is really being a pain...


It's your inferior function. If it makes you feel any better I have trouble remembering what I ate for dinner right after dinner sometimes.


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## Darner (Apr 20, 2010)

This is exactly the topic I'm having problems with lately, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one (but at the same time I feel sorry for us - forcing ourselves to use functions not dom or secondary is hard work). I have an obligatory course for my studies about Society Theories (even though my study barely has anything to do with it. I'm working with numbers and information technology and I'm good at it) and it's painful. For the exam, I will have to write essay discussions about politology, culturology, communicology and sociology and I have no idea, how - especially after listening to other people in my class, who all seem to be super-able of abstract thinking.

So please, help! Keep coming up with suggestions ...



snapdragons said:


> ChanceyRose, thinking that way would give me a headache. In fact, I'm sort of getting one right now...


It's true, sometimes I try to think intuitively but I start getting dizzy when so much information is speeding around in my head.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

@Darner @snapdragons Instead of asking intuitives what intuition is to them, hang out in the intuitive sections of the board and try to understand what is being said. You're not going to know what intuition is going to look like for you by asking dominant intuitives what it's like for them. Also, @snapdragons, you might want to drop @Owfin a line. She apparently has intuitive parents, and she exhibits fairly strong Ne for an ISTJ. She'll probably be able to describe what it's like for you better than any of us will.

I do know for my ISFJ mom, she exhibits Ne whenever she is worried about something. For example, I started going out to bars and such this past semester more than I normally did. I am open with my mom, so I would tell her what my plans would be. Well recently she was put under a ton of stress, and she had a talk with me about how I shouldn't sleep around with "those dirty girls". What happened here? Her Ne assisted her Fe in what her Si couldn't. I have slowly been throwing off a lot of the projections an SJ parent can have on a young ENTP, becoming more confident, becoming more outgoing, etc. All of this conflicted with what she is familiar with regarding my character as a reserved, standoffish persona. Based on that, she was not able to fulfill her desire to know why I would go to bars and parties so much since what she was used to conflicted with what her experience was with me. She is a natural worrier, so in falling back onto Ne, she looked at all of the possibilities, and she could not shake the nagging suspicion that I was sleeping around. I think that's kind of how an SJ might use Ne.

Sensing determines what is. Intuition determines why.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

snapdragons said:


> ChanceyRose, thinking that way would give me a headache. In fact, I'm sort of getting one right now...
> 
> Oh gosh, my head is really being a pain...





Darner said:


> It's true, sometimes I try to think intuitively but I start getting dizzy when so much information is speeding around in my head.


I do understand that. When the Sensing Doms in my life started telling me about the details of their day or their hobbies or their kids or the latest/greatest computer program or whatever I swear I can feel a migraine coming on. It has nothing to do with my level of interest or concern. I simply get overwhelmed by the minutia that they revel in.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

mkeath said:


> It's your inferior function. If it makes you feel any better I have trouble remembering what I ate for dinner right after dinner sometimes.


LMAO...sometimes I forget if I flushed the toilet right after using the toilet...


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

_Well recently she was put under a ton of stress, and she had a talk with me about how I shouldn't sleep around with "those dirty girls". What happened here? Her Ne assisted her Fe in what her Si couldn't._

Okay, see this is very interesting. I always thought thinking this way was presumptuous, as if you were jumping to conclusions! At least whenever I would think this way, I'd get admonished for "jumping to conclusions" and having assumptions. It was usually friends who told me this in school, which leads me to believe that most of my friends when I was a preteen and teen might have been sensors, too.

Or perhaps, it's also what others expect from me? This has happened to me a few times, but there was a time where I took night classes and so did a bunch of other women in my classes. When it started getting dark, we talked about having to walk long distances in the dark and I said, "Would you get pepper spray? I have my own." Then the other women got mad at me and said if I assumed they were the "types" of people who would get jumped or whatever and if that meant they couldn't defend themselves and how could I be so presumptuous...


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

ChanceyRose said:


> I do understand that. When the Sensing Doms in my life started telling me about the details of their day or their hobbies or their kids or the latest/greatest computer program or whatever I swear I can feel a migraine coming on. It has nothing to do with my level of interest or concern. I simply get overwhelmed by the minutia that they revel in.


True story-- my hubby is an N and he is always asking me for "details," and believe it or not, I don't really provide them as much as he'd like. He's also an E, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. I've noticed E's seem to handle details better than I's.


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## snapdragons (Feb 1, 2011)

Darney-- I just noticed you're another sensor here! Yay...I'm not the only one, lol...


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

@snapdragons Here's an example of how poorly developed Ne in an SJ can manifest when Si fails them*:





*Okay, obviously SJs can think for themselves, and this is very hyperbolic, but it caricatures both functions nicely while being funny. See when an SJ uses Ne improperly, it can be kind of funny in a cringeworthy way to watch, but getting caught in the middle of it can be panic-inducing.


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