# Narcissism Awareness Thread



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

*I have edited the title and first post in order to open it to broader discussion about narcissism in general rather than just abuse by narcissists, and in order to clarify how narcissism is defined.*

This thread is for all things pertaining to narcissism: defined as both narcissistic traits (which require no diagnosis) as well as Narcissistic Personality Disorder. For further understanding of the definition of narcissism that is being discussed here, please listen to Dr. Ramani's explanation at 1:05






This thread is for the purpose of generating discussion, awareness, insight, understanding, and growth revolving around this subject. Share your resources, information, experiences, insights, thoughts, songs with lyrics pertaining to it, documentaries, whatever.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Deleted


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I remembered earlier today...that a lot of what grounded me during times of doubt (probably from being gaslit so much) was gaining knowledge, just educating myself about what's what. Understanding how narcissism works, what it looks like or how to identify it, wrapping my mind around the patterns and dynamics that occur, being able to see through the bullshit. I think having knowledge for yourself is important, in part because you're not just dependent upon taking your psychologist's word for it or something. You know for yourself exactly what took place and why, regardless of what anybody says, and I think that's an important weapon to have in your arsenal when you've been raised by narcissists because they can't just continue their gaslighting.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

One thing about narcissism is that if you've been through it, especially during developmental years, it tends to kind of carve a path in your psyche, as I like to put it. Basically, it conditions you to think, feel, react, and behave in certain ways that make it easier for other narcissists to come along and do the same thing. You pretty much become a narcissist magnet. That's one other reason why educating yourself about narcissism is vital when you've been through it. The nice part is, once you're equipped with knowledge and understanding pertaining to it that way, you're actually better equipped against it than the majority of people. You find yourself more easily identifying it than others. You might recognize it from miles away while others get caught up in it a bit in some professional setting. That's because you have the firsthand experience to go along with that knowledge, which comes with a whole lot of insight.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I can't stand (and will reject) people who regard gossip without assessing things on their own. To me it's just a red flag. The people who gossip themselves are even worse.


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## Jabbadonut (Mar 23, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> For all things pertaining to narcissistic abuse. For the purpose of generating discussion, awareness, insight, understanding, and growth revolving around this subject.
> 
> Share your experiences, insights, thoughts, songs with lyrics pertaining to it, documentaries, whatever.
> 
> *Keep resources credible. *Narcissism is a relatively misused term and poorly understood topic. I don't want this thread spreading misinformation. Please be mindful and try not to contribute to misinformation.


I was fortunate to be raised by parents who were not narcissists. However, they were controlling and that led to problems for me later on in life. There is no free ride for anyone in human life, the problems are just varied and variable. I feel your pain regarding narcissism, though.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Being raised into abuse is a dreadful, soul shattering experience. Part of you thinks ‘something isn’t right, this is not what love should look like’ and another part says ‘I must be crazy, they are my parents, parents want only what is best for their children’. This is confusing and devastating, on top of all the bad treatment we’ve got and the many opportunities we’ve missed in life because of these people. Such parents though, ARE NOT parents. They are unable to raise children, lack empathy, are exploiting and manipulating. They lie, they deny or minimize their shitty behavior, they don’t have an ounce of concern for other people. It’s important to understand abuse, and know that it’s never ever ok.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> How my mother turned her entire side of the family against me (why I still have no family today, and why I had to cut ties with family members who aren't narcissistic):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Best to be alone than in a dysfunctional boat that will sink, sooner or later. You are better without them, as lonely as it can be.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Deleted


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rainbowrama said:


> Best to be alone than in a dysfunctional boat that will sink, sooner or later. You are better without them, as lonely as it can be.


I think cutting a narcissist out is never truly the victim's choice. You're alone regardless of whether they're around or not anyway. The narcissist chose that they'd be cut off from you. The only thing you can change is whether they are physically absent or present.

As for a narcissistic family system (flying monkeys, smear campaign) - to have them in your life is to have the narcissist in your life.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Deleted


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Jabbadonut said:


> I was fortunate to be raised by parents who were not narcissists. However, they were controlling and that led to problems for me later on in life. There is no free ride for anyone in human life, the problems are just varied and variable. I feel your pain regarding narcissism, though.


No one has a free ride, but I like the way Dr. Ramani puts it at 2:34


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

People aren't understanding at all about cutting out a parent and it sort of surprises me because like...to me it's just such a natural thing. I spent my entire life hearing my dad say things like "cut her out of your life" and "love her from a distance." It's not an easy experience necessarily, but it's so normalized in my own worldview that I didn't realize it would be such a big deal to the majority of others. With narcissists things are different than with most parents. They're so abusive that you cannot keep them in your life while having inner peace a lot of times.

I think that talking about my past helps me find a sense of purpose to some extent. It makes me think that maybe if I shared my story and helped educate others, just maybe, I could help make the world a little better, more accepting, more understanding, less stigmatizing. Maybe, in the midst of my own narcissist-induced isolation, I could reach out to others who have gone through, or are still going through, the same things; make their lives a bit better somehow and help them to not feel so alone.

I think about all these accusations and misunderstandings I face in my daily life, when dealing with most people I encounter, because of how my hardships have made me so different. Sometimes I want to shut down from those experiences and stop being open about myself at all, especially since being misunderstood and falsely accused in very personal ways has been such a central part of the abuse I went through that made me so isolated in the first place. Overall though, at the end of the day...facing those things makes me understand the stance of the majority a little more and become just a bit better at communicating things to people. It enables me to phrase things in a way that bridges the gaps between the understandings of the majority, and my experiences as a minority. I guess, to me, that makes enduring worth it.

It helps me to understand how abnormal my own experiences are as well, and that makes me think of the world as a place that's brighter than I thought it was. It makes me want to know...what lies in the unknown, because...it makes it seem like all I've known is a much darker side of this world than what "average" really is. Understanding the darkness of my past makes me hopeful for a brighter future. If my own life has been dark, it means that brighter things are out there, and that maybe the world isn't as horrible as I once understood it to be.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Hexcoder said:


> Share your experiences, insights, thoughts, songs with lyrics pertaining to it, documentaries, whatever.


avoiding association with support groups for children of narcissists is generally one of the healthier things to do... seek one on one counseling, if needed. just avoid the group scenarios concerning said topic. it's not just _fleas_









Drop Dead Fred : n/a : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


n/a



archive.org


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> I think cutting a narcissist out is never truly the victim's choice. You're alone regardless of whether they're around or not anyway. The narcissist chose that they'd be cut off from you. The only thing you can change is whether they are physically absent or present.
> 
> As for a narcissistic family system (flying monkeys, smear campaign) - to have them in your life is to have the narcissist in your life. Every time I talk to a family member on her side as just normal everyday conversation it's gotta come with a guilt trip, an accusation, and a follow-up from mother. Of course, she's got to come behind my interactions with them and make sure that wedge remains intact by planting gossip and seeds of doubt, distrust, accusation, etc. against me. My bonding with them is a threat to her and her control, so much that she purposely makes it impossible to bond with them by creating negativity toward me in them, to a point where they don't want to invite me to family reunions or they scold and guilt trip me over false accusations on her behalf if they do see me.
> 
> I may be the one who cut them out, but not having a family was never my choice in the first place. I didn't have one when they were around any more than I do now that they're not. The only thing different is that now I have less drama and toxicity in my life.


I think I see what you mean, it wasn’t your choice to be born in a family that, well... Couldn’t behave like one. Every kid deserves good parenting, and to be sheltered from abuse.
The narcissistic family system can be indeed a great challenge, as they will be the Narc’s avatar in every single interaction they have with you. I don’t know about if you have one, but I think a good support system with people who are close to you and understand what you’ve been through could be the best medicine. I hope I can find it one day. Another family, and a real one, in the form of close friends and a life partner.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rift said:


> avoiding association with support groups for children of narcissists is generally one of the healthier things to do... seek one on one counseling, if needed. just avoid the group scenarios concerning said topic. it's not just _fleas_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never been in a support group for it but I do have a brother that's been through the same things. Yes, there are toxic effects on individuals, but it's seriously not as bad as you're making it out to be, and he's not even very far into recovery (he's way behind me, barely started, went down the drug abuse/addict path instead). If the people are in recovery, all the more, it's seriously not that bad...but then, I'm a very educated / equipped person when it comes to this stuff too, I guess.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> I've never been in a support group for it but I do have a brother that's been through the same things. Yes, there are toxic effects on individuals, but it's seriously not as bad as you're making it out to be, and he's not even very far into recovery (he's way behind me, barely started, went down the drug abuse/addict path instead). If the people are in recovery, all the more, it's seriously not that bad...but then, I'm a very educated / equipped person when it comes to this stuff too, I guess.


Interesting. What are the negative effects of such groups in your opinion?


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## rosesandgold (Jun 12, 2015)

I have done research on the subject of narcisstic abuse in 2018, as I was curious after learning about a relationship that had been emotionally abusive and possibly it was narcisstic abuse and so I researched it. It is a very scary thing. 

There is something I have been wondering about @Hexcoder, how can you be sure who the victim was and the abuser, if you look at it from an outsider perspective?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hoooooollllllyyyyyyyyyyy shit
100% spot on


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Hexcoder said:


> Both my mother and father are narcissists, so this topic is central in my life. It's common for people who haven't been through these kinds of experiences to think, "well, that was years ago, it's over now, just leave it behind and put it to rest!" Those who have walked in those shoes know all too well though, the way it molds you and impacts your life well beyond childhood, well after the person is dead and gone, even. It isn't as simple as "not letting it," either. It shapes your experiences and personality in ways that trickle down into every aspect of your life: mental, physical, social, financial, professional...everything. The road to recovery is also like a trickle down effect. The more I learn about narcissism, the more I can heal, grow, overcome, and resolve; the more I do those things, the healthier and happier I'm able to be; then that results in making healthier decisions revolving around my relationships, life choices, and mental health, as well.
> 
> I love teaching others about what it's like to experience abuse by narcissists, and as someone who was never allowed to have my own voice, I'm always attracted to an opportunity to be a little bit rebellious by asserting my voice and speaking up about the many injustices behind it all. After so many years of being the scapegoat, the one at fault no matter whether it had anything to do with me or not, the one who was silenced by things like undeserved shaming and being ganged up on by a narcissistic family system (flying monkeys), the one who was never allowed to have my own personality...I take pleasure in my own defiance against all of that. I like to speak up and let my voice be heard for the purpose of educating people and therefore spoiling the endeavors of narcissists (knowledge is armor in this world), and for the purpose of helping a community I find solidarity with: people who have been through the same things and can understand from firsthand experience what it's like.


How did they interact with each other? Being caught in between them must have royally sucked.


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## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

Dr. Kirk Honda has a lot of good insights about narcissism. I believe he has stated that clients with personality disorders are his favorite clients, which is very unusual. Here's one of his videos:


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## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

This channel has some good videos about borderline and narcissistic personality disorders too:


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## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> Hoooooollllllyyyyyyyyyyy shit
> 100% spot on


I enjoy Dr. Grande's videos.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

bifurcations said:


> I enjoy Dr. Grande's videos.


Saaaaaaame tho. I absolutely adore him. Very objective and rational.


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## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> Saaaaaaame tho. I absolutely adore him. Very objective and rational.


I like the little jokes he's been slipping into his videos for the past two years or so.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

tanstaafl28 said:


> How did they interact with each other? Being caught in between them must have royally sucked.


Deleted


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## Annie S. (Feb 15, 2021)

My mother is a narcissist. It effects me (as 14 years old), because every time she talks to one of my friends parents, she does it in such a narcissistic way, that my friends have a different view on me. I shy away with guilt, --it wasn't me that told her to shame those parents (not exactly shame, but something like that). 

Most of my "friends" are narcissists as well. They all think they're right about everything. Don't take this the wrong way, but some of it, I think, is the parents. The parents tell the kids what they've already thought about and discovered. They think they're the only ones that thought about things deeply enough, and they share they're insights with their children. Since the parents think they're right, the children, they admire their parents and have this strong desire to think the same way they do. They eventually adapt to these thoughts, and think they are right no matter what. They think they're the only ones that know everything. They think they're the only ones that think. They think they're better than the rest of us. It's a pain, because you can't convince them their wrong. They think everyone is stupid, because no one else knows what they (or their parents) know. I can't make an argument with them, because they never want to admit their wrong.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Hexcoder said:


> I've never been in a support group for it but I do have a brother that's been through the same things. Yes, there are toxic effects on individuals, but it's seriously not as bad as you're making it out to be, and he's not even very far into recovery (he's way behind me, barely started, went down the drug abuse/addict path instead). If the people are in recovery, all the more, it's seriously not that bad...but then, I'm a very educated / equipped person when it comes to this stuff too, I guess.


I didn't even describe it. so, I doubt it could be bad or good. 

however, ACON groups tend to operate outside of the confines of normal support groups - they're predominately INFORMAL peer based groups and run counter to any sort of facilitated structure based in mental health support. hence they tend to be cult like and rather quickly move towards reinforcing/justifying behaviors akin to what they're allegedly protesting. I've yet to see any acon group that didn't resemble apocalyptico death kneel cult that saw narcissists _everywhere_ in turn, justifying and enabling unhealthy behaviors essentially becoming _socially_ cluster b/a themselves -- where members inevitably develop problems with everyone in their lives, making them free of responsibility and accountability, because any naysayer is the thing they fear. so, generally not a very 'suppportive' group.. and thus better to seek out individualized support given the nature of such groups tend to attract the types their allegedly trying to avoid.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

bifurcations said:


> Dr. Kirk Honda has a lot of good insights about narcissism. I believe he has stated that clients with personality disorders are his favorite clients, which is very unusual. Here's one of his videos:


Interesting video. Thanks.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rift said:


> I didn't even describe it. so, I doubt it could be bad or good.
> 
> however, ACON groups tend to operate outside of the confines of normal support groups - they're predominately INFORMAL peer based groups and run counter to any sort of facilitated structure based in mental health support. hence they tend to be cult like and rather quickly move towards reinforcing/justifying behaviors akin to what they're allegedly protesting. I've yet to see any acon group that didn't resemble apocalyptico death kneel cult that saw narcissists _everywhere_ in turn, justifying and enabling unhealthy behaviors essentially becoming _socially_ cluster b/a themselves -- where members inevitably develop problems with everyone in their lives, making them free of responsibility and accountability, because any naysayer is the thing they fear. so, generally not a very 'suppportive' group.. and thus better to seek out individualized support given the nature of such groups tend to attract the types their allegedly trying to avoid.


I see. Yeah, I have no experience with that...but I tend to avoid most mental illness communities in general anyway, personally, simply because experience has taught me that they mostly revolve around sort of a 'victim mentality.' It's one thing to struggle, but another thing to do nothing about your problems besides whining, I guess. Just some sort of weird whiny, enabling echo chamber, based on my experiences. Too many people not actually interested in growth or improvement.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rainbowrama said:


> Interesting. What are the negative effects of such groups in your opinion?


No idea...never been involved in one.

Abuse victims need therapy for a reason though. Facing your own behaviors, etc. is a big part of what healing from it is when you've been raised by a narcissistic parent.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

Hexcoder said:


> I see. Yeah, I have no experience with that...but I tend to avoid most mental illness communities in general anyway, personally, simply because experience has taught me that they mostly revolve around sort of a 'victim mentality.' It's one thing to struggle, but another thing to do nothing about your problems besides whining, I guess. Just some sort of weird whiny, enabling echo chamber, based on my experiences. Too many people not actually interested in growth or improvement.


mental health support groups have their uses... but unfortunately, most seek it out as an alternative to traditional therapy. . . when these kind of groups especially those entangled with abuse require more one on one work or a small group under advisement of a formal specialist / professional - to first establish what healthy boundaries are and recognize their own symptoms before comparing scars with others. 

"cluster b" and "cluster a" types are difficult to diagnose on their own and are heavily stigmatized to mythic proportions... thus making it difficult for children of said types not understanding the conditions and understanding the nature of abuse in general or specifically related within said conditions, leads to creating hollywood-style boogiemen. 

acon groups tend to believe that such traits exhibited in themselves are "fleas" -- carryovers from the parent than admittting the possibility they may have the condition, too. which isn't likely to happen in an environment that sees it as "pure evil" of religious proportions.

and in general, the problems of support groups - the problems of gaining support from other damaged people has the usual risks - bonding over dysfunction, especially in the early stages of recovery often results in the destruction of their healthier aspects of their lives and relationships. 

while generally I cringe at these kind of articles and I do cringe at this one as well, however it does list the common problems of acon individuals. . . though some of the problem is that much of the material is more 'holisitic' than psychiatric... and would likely benefit from recognizing much of it isn't specific to narcissistic abuse alone, but abuse in general... which may involve many other factors and dynamics.









9 Ways Children Of Narcissistic Parents Love Differently


We are hyper-attuned – to everything. Changes in tone? Check. Micro-shifts in facial expressions? Noted. Gestures that contradict spoken words? Documented. We are emotional private investigat…




thoughtcatalog.com


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rift said:


> mental health support groups have their uses... but unfortunately, most seek it out as an alternative to traditional therapy. . . when these kind of groups especially those entangled with abuse require more one on one work or a small group under advisement of a formal specialist / professional - to first establish what healthy boundaries are and recognize their own symptoms before comparing scars with others.
> 
> "cluster b" and "cluster a" types are difficult to diagnose on their own and are heavily stigmatized to mythic proportions... thus making it difficult for children of said types not understanding the conditions and understanding the nature of abuse in general or specifically related within said conditions, leads to creating hollywood-style boogiemen.
> 
> and in general, the problems of support groups - the problems of gaining support from other damaged people has the usual risks - bonding over dysfunction, especially in the early stages of recovery often results in the destruction of their healthier aspects of their lives and relationships.


Yeah, I can imagine that being a thing.



> acon groups tend to believe that such traits exhibited in themselves are "fleas" -- carryovers from the parent than admittting the possibility they may have the condition, too. which isn't likely to happen in an environment that sees it as "pure evil" of religious proportions.


I mean...a lot of times it actually *is* this, though. But I will say, any person trying to heal needs to be prepared to be brutally honest with themselves if they want actual healing and not just validation (as overcompensation for insecurity) and victimhood.



> while generally I cringe at these kind of articles and I do cringe at this one as well, however it does list the common problems of acon individuals. . . though some of the problem is that much of the material is more 'holisitic' than psychiatric... and would likely benefit from recognizing much of it isn't specific to narcissistic abuse alone, but abuse in general... which may involve many other factors and dynamics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gotta say, this comes quite far from hitting the nail on the head for me. 1-2 things were dead on (independence and being hyper-attuned to emotional expressions, etc.) a few things were once problems (though some have different explanations than this article's) but aren't now because I've already grown past them, and the rest were just off.

One thing in particular that stands out to me about that article is the claim that they're independent accompanied by the claim that they're open *in order to seek a rescuer*. This stands out to me as a contradiction, and I can't help but to question whether perhaps this journalist is just someone who is writing what they suppose is why a person might be too open.

Personally, I did used to be too open...but never to seek a rescuer, which would conflict with my independent nature (as well as my dislike for victim roles). I simply didn't understand boundaries. That was it. There might've been some times when I wanted to put my shit out there to help or inspire others who have been through similar situations, but for the most part, overall...no underlying motives / efforts whatsoever. Just poor comprehension of boundaries.

I agree with this wholeheartedly:


> though some of the problem is that much of the material is more 'holisitic' than psychiatric... and would likely benefit from recognizing much of it isn't specific to narcissistic abuse alone, but abuse in general... which may involve many other factors and dynamics.


That definitely is a very real issue.


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## Rift (Mar 12, 2012)

this fellow has an interesting perspective, worth a review.. his theories lead with developmental arrest and trauma, reclassifying it as a subset of complex post traumatic stress disorder. . . and makes several other distinctions to the types of narcissists, abuse, how npd is created, theories on abuse/children of narcissists, while defining himself as one as well.









Sam Vaknin - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org









__





Shmuel (Sam) Vaknin - Curriculum Vitae (Biography)






samvak.tripod.com







https://www.youtube.com/user/samvaknin/videos


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rift said:


> this fellow has an interesting perspective, worth a review.. his theories lead with developmental arrest and trauma, reclassifying it as a subset of complex post traumatic stress disorder. . . and makes several other distinctions to the types of narcissists, abuse, how npd is created, theories on abuse/children of narcissists, while defining himself as one as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This led me to this video:






Not even 5 minutes in, "my mind is like a machine"

God, disorders are so intriguing...

*EDIT:*
Wow...when he talks about how narcissism is the personality, not a trait or a behavior...everything the narcissist is, is narcissism...that's an incredibly powerful statement.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Just gonna paste this here.

On a side note...wow, he's so articulate.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)




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## rosesandgold (Jun 12, 2015)

I read about how unhealthy Enneagram 8 are narcissists, have the disorder or some traits of it. Unhealthy Eights might be the most dangerous, or one of the most dangerous, when very unhealthy.


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## Inkling considered INFJ (May 20, 2016)

I can share an experience. I just talk from experience, so this is just based on my perceptions and experiences. I watched and read a lot about covert narcissism but it was for my understanding.
Here's what I've learned:

First thing covert narcissists are hard to spot, because they are the wolf in sheep's clothing. They act innocent and sweet and you get a picture of them like they are helpless and you need to protect them. When they know you fell for this, they get used to your help. They take it for granted. If you are once exhausted and need a break, but they want your attention they show their real face and throw a tantrum and accuse you of not being a "real friend, spouse" or whatever. The thing about the covert narcissist, which make them tricky is that they give and they use this giving against you as well one time.

To my experience: I had a friend once and her friends changed like her underwear. She was helpless and incapable. During that time I had codependent traits and felt the urge to get her out of her misery. We had daily phone calls, which just were about her (I didn't realized it at that time), whenever I wanted to talk about my problems, she shrugged it of with: "I don't want to talk about negative stuff. I can't deal with this right now...". So everything were good back then, despite I always knew her being negative 24/7 and when she called I rolled my eyes but I always picked the phone up. Then I decided to create boundaries and let not other people dictate my life. She began to throw childish tantrums daily. Accused me of not being a "best friend" and when I keep doing things for myself I will not be her "best friend" anymore. At the time I knew what was going on, she gave me the silence treatment and I didn't care becuse I saw the friendship falling apart. It luckily was not a big deal for me. She were extremely close to her mother and even she (and I thought I was cool with her mom) tried to manipulate me and told me that I have to be there for my "best friend". That was the point I decided. Okay I leave for good. I cutted off the strings and blcoked her and deleted everything I had from her. Despite some pictures of her small dog, he was cute. =D

Boundaries are so important, even if you don't have narcissists around you. I have insecure friends who can drain the life out of you as well. Take your distance and detach from that. Notice where you give these people energy by getting on their wavelength and act like them. For example if they provocate you don't provocate back by getting on their level. Everything is energy and don't give your precious energy to them. That's what they want, to drag you down and feed off of that energy. Don't let yourself get abused.


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## Inkling considered INFJ (May 20, 2016)

Hexcoder said:


>


The Psychology in Seattle Podcast is so good, I definitely would recommend the podcast by Dr. Kirk Honda


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

---


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Anthony Weldon.
Victim/Perpetrator/Survivor
& Narcissism Study 40+ Years.

—-

WARCRY!

Annihilating Narcissism.

Part of our purpose is to understand narcissism and use it as a force for good.

—-

How to make a narcissist?

Emotional unavailability!

We are a flocking-being and from birth seek to orientate our emotions externally to connect with the flock.

If our primary caregiver is not emotionally available our emotional self will hold in stasis.

The longer that hold the more likely the emotional self will find necessity in it’s own shadow.

The narcissist is emotionally internally orientated.

—-

The Narcissist.

Type 1.

The Generational Narcissist.

Biologically programmed never to anticipate emotional availability and born into their fate.

Type 2.

The Birth Narcissist.

Never offered external emotion their internal shadow orientation is all they understand.

Type 3.

The Trauma Narcissist.

Externally emotionally orientated but through trauma internalised and became narcissistic.

Type 4.

The Partial Narcissist.


Those reared with an understanding of how to apply emotional boundaries.
Those having engaged narcissism and now applying emotional boundaries.
Those mimicking techniques and applying emotional boundaries ad hoc.

Adhering to boundaries is part narcissistic.

—-

The Lower Self.

Narcissism is the Devil on Earth.
The One among The Many.
A silent dialogue between Demons!

The Middle Self.

The Battlefield is Earth.
Narcissists are growing in number.
Empaths need to prepare!

The Higher Self.

Empathy is God on Earth.
The One among The Many.
A silent dialogue between Angels!

—-

The Empath.

External emotional orientation with no boundaries is entirely empathetic.

We openly play-fight our way into each other’s hearts and minds with abandon.

Our own emotional evolution calling forth our narcissist to awaken us into sharpening our sword and polishing our shield to fight the good fight.

It’s game on!

—-

The Spartan Empath.

Fearlessly gladiatorial.
Dedicated determined and disciplined.
Wholly empathetic and wholly narcissistic.
Wings on our heels and God at our back.
Sweet talking stone cold killers!

—-

Conclusion.

We live among an army of caterpillars preventing our transformation and denying our kaleidoscope.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Wut


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Wut Wut?

—-

What is a narcissist?

Percival Unisus, 20+ Years Survival & Research on Narcissism.


A narcissist is one who has not yet vowed themselves to truth & fairness—which is the relentless pursuit to lay one’s life down for what is just.

Narcissists are merely in love with shallow interpretations of desirability. They will not appreciate reliability, loyalty, generosity, kindness, security, availability, or even familiarity.

When a narcissist is emotionally or physically unavailable, or in any other way, they present this as if they are withholding something precious. That makes them appear desirable to our childhood ideas about availability in merchandising.

The truth is, that their unreliability makes them worthless—unworthy of attention, investment, desire, or love; scarcity in reliability is not the same as scarcity in merchandising. An undiscerning mind may not distinguish the difference, and will therefore long for what is lost rather than accepting unreliability or unavailability as worthless.

It is the worldview that rarity makes desirability, which allows a narcissist to hypnotize when being as utterly unreliable & unworthy of affection.

They knowingly exploit unconscious primitive triggers in the mind which arouse the idea of desirability when in fact they are not undesirable, when you realize what is going on.

• If you overvalue scarcity above reliability, you are going to yearn for a narcissist.

• If you overvalue demand above loyalty, you are going to yearn for a narcissist.

• If you overvalue excitement above stability, you are going to yearn for a narcissist.

The narcissist is unbaptized by the spirit of willful righteousness; contrary to what you are being told, it is not a personality disorder, but the default mode of man.

• The danger that comes from the threats of persecution to a righteous man, heightens a non-narcissist’s adrenaline to permanently healthy levels.

• The narcissist, resolving to live easy, by its default nature & placing zero emphasis on the sacrifice of courageous honesty & fairness—instead has low adrenaline levels; they are not under the threat of persecution for telling the truth or being taken advantage of.

• The narcissist must seek thrills using deception & exploitation, to makeup for the adrenaline difference.

Who else could enjoy acting, lying, and exploiting? It is those who have not given themselves to truth & justice, which is God.

Thus, the rebel loves the ungraciousness of manipulation; this, is the thrill of their lives. They commit wrong for adrenaline. They cheat, break hearts, and try out new people for adrenaline. They don’t get adrenaline from doing what is right. Without being baptized, they are never under the threat of the devil’s persecution; they must commit wrong or seek other dangers, to feel adrenaline.

The danger of getting caught for wrongdoing is how they maintain their body chemistry; the narcissist does everything confusing, illegal, illogical, & wrong—because wrongdoing raises adrenaline.

Normal values considered priceless to the divine, are viewed completely opposite to the unbaptized (whose mode is the carnal mind):

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of loyalty bores then agitates to feel clingy.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of reliability bores then agitates to feel like a cheap inflation of availability.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of generosity bores then agitates to feel manipulative rather than cooperative.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of stability bores then agitates to feel monotonous & tedious.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of honesty bores then agitates to feel intrusive & burdensome.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of faithfulness bores then agitates to feel like a vulnerable weakness.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of forgiveness bores then agitates to feel like an opportunity to exploit.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of familiarity bores then agitates to feel monotonous and isolated.

• With lowered adrenaline, the security of distributed attention becomes impatiently annoying, and an opportunity to soak up the benefits of glory via attention seeking.

Conclusion: Desire is an art; wake up, or be slayed. A narcissist hacks the lower nature if you are not conscious of what is going on.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Bruh. Just no.


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Yes bro... 

You’re trapped in a trauma-bond and regurgitate your experience not to seek understanding but to continue the abuse. 

It’s sick... wake the fuck up!


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Ark Angel Michael


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I5T4R5 said:


> Yes bro...
> 
> You’re trapped in a trauma-bond and regurgitate your experience not to seek understanding but to continue the abuse.
> 
> It’s sick... wake the fuck up!


You have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Lol. Astoundingly clueless.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)




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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


>


Just no brah...


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

Narcissists Are Very Happy

Brian Bryant
Oct 16, 2018

See, again, we must understand language; happy actually comes from the same root word as the word happening. The narcissist is not any more or less happy, although in capitalist society and other civilizations which were ruthlessly overthrown by narcissists who now control all the weapons and therefore fortunes — the narcissists in, say, America, are happier than non-narcissists.

This is not because of anything they’ve done, or because they’ve worked extra hard at achieving that ever elusive so-called self love we keep hearing about; narcissists are over-privileged in capitalist societies, and they’d like to keep it that way.

Narcissists Are Secretly Selfosexual.

They will never be inspired by the muse of deep romantic passion, and so the fantasies they constantly have about other people are forever living and dying in idealization & devaluation factories.

In the beginning many narcissists may be unaware that they are in love with themselves; but generally they are just as aware as anyone who must come to terms with their sexual orientation.

The narcissist knows it is sexually attracted to itself pretty early on (if not immediately), and thus upon reaching puberty, they will begin to blossom into the self-serving beacon of exploitation they were born to become.

Narcissists Will Immediately Begin to Equate Love With Self-Serving.

They are married to themselves from the start, because whatever causes the sexual orientation to be attracted extrovertly — for whatever reason is aimed inward; we can call it a flaw of nature, but it has worked very well for the evolution of their kind.

They have invented Cupidalism (Capitalism) to begin farming & exploiting humans using their desires against them, namely by creating a dangling carrot of love while sexually harassing us, encouraging divorce, & gossiping division. Inwardly the narcissist is well aware that it is selfosexual.

Many will falsely switch between the labels of asexual, bisexual, gay, experimenting, “no label”, heterosexual, and pansexual at varying times in their life. The real label is selfosexual, which means that they were born fully satisfied, and their life becomes a journey of building a life around their spouse (themselves).

And so, other people’s attractions are used against them to lure them while milking the benefits of romance; they rape other people using deception, seduction, sex, and superficial love.

In truth they are really just using others for real live sex dolls and masturbation toys to fulfill their fantasies while exploiting the luxuries of romance that come with it.

That is, the narcissist is robbing you of a true spouse, as well as your future spouse; they know that you are looking for love, and so they will take all the benefits of romance out of you while using you for pleasure to enhance the fantasies of themselves. If you are not playing along, they will quickly dump you and move onto the next tool. And when you are together, they will continue exploring themselves in different fantasies (what many refer to as cheating).

In order to continue robbing the benefits of a spouse, they will keep up the charade of loving you, having loved you, and ever having been interested in the first place. What they were, was appetized by you in the beginning as a complement to themselves to enhance their fantasies into real life.

But They Are Sexually Oriented Inwardly, Not Outwardly.

Narcissists grow to be very bored; they are, nonetheless, happy. They are, however, so selfish and fulfilled, overprivileged, and uninspired by any quest to fall in love with another (because they can’t; they are sexually attracted to themselves, and they already have love) — that they become bored.

And so the aggressive pushiness, bossiness, self entitlement, conceit, cold heartedness, and exploitation of others is all centered around the fact that they are married to their true love already: Themselves. They just require other people to keep them stimulated in the real world, and so they will lie about everything to get whatever they want.
They have nothing to lose, either; people who are sexually oriented in say heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual orientations — are answerable to one another. We work hard to remain attractive, not to indulge ourselves but to connect with, attract families, and create society.

The narcissists have overthrown the family unit, and the desire for external love; we are living in an epidemic. The percent is far greater than 4%. At least half of the population is selfosexual; the narcissists from ancient times formed around sadistic psychopathic occult rings used ancient ceremonies including the statue of Moloch (child sacrifice) & orgies to recruit one another.

We are living among the descendent generation or society created by ancient narcissists.

They then began having babies and imprisoning them in Cupidalism (the cult of Cupid & Psyche, which was controlled by the same kind of mafias who run the whore houses/strips clubs today). In fact, the modern media is just the digital strip club, with lots of divisive speech and brainwash between the scenes of half naked strippers or so-called “celebrities”.

And so we are living in the economic arenas of boundaries controlled by selfosexuals. Your purpose, to them, is to work, desire, work, desire, hate yourself, take the blame, get raped, have babies, go to work, desire, desire, never get fulfilled — and always wonder why you’re never getting ahead in this world.
Society Is Overrun By Narcissists (Selfosexuals).

They began the program thousands of years ago and instituted natural eugenics by defunding non-selfosexuals, while persecuting their victims.

So the entertainment you see today is all about drugs, drinking, sex, shock value, orgies, fornicating, horror, and all kinds of atrocities. All of these are the addictions and fruits of selfosexuals.

No — they are not unhappy; they are bored, and the lesser controlled ones or the less pretty ones might self-loathe and play a victim, but they aren’t unhappy. They are married to their ideal partner from the start: They’re selfosexual, never having to look for love.

They are bored, while forever looking for ways to exploit you, seduce you, and get in your pants to use you for another tool in a fantasy.

They highly crave “winning over God’s pure ones” (ie. those who are lovers and attracted to one another).

But their percents are far higher than 50% — not the 4% like we’ve been told. Look around you; society is a piggish hellhole of self-serving narcissism. The fact that the standards have been lowered is what is keeping this a secret, on purpose, to lure the non-selfosexuals into grave situations assuming, “The odds cannot be stacked against me. I must have found true love.”

NOOOPE — you didn’t. We’ve been lied to, and they aren’t unhappy no matter how many “I’m getting a divorce boohoo” YouTube channels and outstanding performances these pieces of garbage want to give. Drama (your life) is a sacrifice to boost their ratings. All their “sad times” is kleptocaducing (subscribe to the Daffodil Glossary channel for definition).

They Are Stealing Pity!

Non-selfosexuals are unhappy because we’re being forced to slave away in their cult of Cupid, while getting raped and being used for sex trafficking. Literally, we are being used for a narcissistic selfosexual cult of Cupid called capitalism (cupidalism) and his whore of a wife Psyche whose worshippers created psychology (from Psyche).

They are prescribing us drugs to shut us up, throwing us into concentration camps called asylums, prison, and homelessness if we protest the abuse; they are calling us crazy. They’re doping us up, and using us for sex in fake relationships; they’re raping us, stealing our kids in court, and using us for a breeding program.

We are living in a holocaust called capitalism (or Cupidalism), and entertained ever so slightly enough to argue that, “it isn’t so bad”. Really, it is. Let’s revolt.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I5T4R5 said:


> Just no brah...


Uhm, yes. And please get off my thread -.-


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

I5T4R5 said:


> Narcissists Are Very Happy
> 
> Brian Bryant
> Oct 16, 2018
> ...


lol


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## I5T4R5 (Mar 3, 2021)

No Problemo 👋


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

rosesandgold said:


> I read about how unhealthy Enneagram 8 are narcissists, have the disorder or some traits of it. Unhealthy Eights might be the most dangerous, or one of the most dangerous, when very unhealthy.


I caution against using the Enneagram this way. It isn't a valid tool in the psychology world, nor is there any valid research that ties together the Enneagram with the diagnoses that they claim to be associated with. The Enneagram has tried to emerge into the professional world, but was denied on the basis of not meeting criteria that would deem it as credible.

If that's not enough though, Claudio Naranjo refers to Enneastyle Seven as the narcissist. Others refer to the Enneagram Three as the narcissist. However, some professionals argue that Enneagram is so subjective and theoretical that an argument could be made to associate just about any type with narcissism.









Narcissism and Enneagram Styles - The Enneagram Spectrum of Personality Styles


There is some debate about which Enneagram styles display narcissistic tendencies. Some put Sevens in the narcissistic category; some put Threes in that basket; some say any Enneagram type can manifest narcissistic leanings. I propose to completely unresolve this issue by presenting some...




enneagramspectrum.com


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


>


To expand upon this - basically, this ties into why narcs feel threatened by A) authentic people, and B) people who see the truth about them. Both A and B tend to be scapegoats for this reason. They fear that the revelation of truth will dismantle the system of enablers, the image others have of them, and/or the self-image they have, which their lies have constructed. When their lies are threatened by truth, they try to destroy that scapegoat with lies.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> I laughed at my narcissistic dad for referring to his use of unique words that most people don't bother to look up or memorize as, "higher level thinking." He didn't like that much. A part of me *almost *feels sorry for him though. It's obvious that he just uses it as an ego boost to feel superior to others to compensate for his deep insecurity. He feels "better" than others because he knows fancier words...sad, really.


Imagine your parent is like this and a situation comes up where they deliberately use a word they don't expect you to know, and they ask you if you know what it means. You know it's just a staged sentence that will be followed by you saying "no," at which point the parent will have a stroked ego. You completely perceive and understand the underlying dynamics: in that moment they're basically going, "I'm superior to you, see? I'm smarter than you." You know that in their minds they're putting you down to build themselves up by using some arbitrary word that indicates nothing about your intelligence levels in reality. Only, you're a teenager at the time, so you're a little immature, so it actually gets under your skin that they're being this way. (You haven't yet learned not to take it personally.)

It's not that it hurts your pride though, you know better than to believe that makes you incompetent. Rather, it's personal and emotional to you because you want and need the love of your parent, and you know that this isn't how love treats others. You understand that a loving parent would want to build your self-esteem up, not try to make you look and feel stupid in order to make themselves feel better. You perceive that it reveals how their heart is toward you, and that it it's impure: they are pretty much demonstrating that they're willing to step on you in order to raise themselves higher. In other words, they're selfish, and that selfishness is not from a place of love. You're hurt from the fact that they won't demonstrate the parental love that you want and need from them as their child. You're angry because they're too petty, childish, and ridiculous to just take on the parental role they're supposed to have: they're falling short of basic parental expectations, standards, or roles. You hold them to a certain standard, a very basic one, but they fall short of it.

All of this takes place in only an instant: they deliberately used a word they don't expect you to know, then you perceived the underlying dynamics (_snap_) just like that. To onlookers (which would be a few other family members in this case, but they aren't as perceptive as you and remain oblivious as to what this parent is actually doing), he's only just asked if you know what a word means. Your teenage mind lacks the wisdom that would give you the common sense to not call your parent out, and so you do, naively hoping it will change or resolve something. Unbeknownst to you, your calling them out was always bound to be futile and could never reach them since they're narcissistic, because their narcissism makes them adamantly deny responsibility and instead shift the blame in everything. The narcissistic parent denies it, gaslights you, claims to have only been innocently asking, and then on top of it makes you out to be the one doing something wrong by saying you're just paranoid and insecure. By calling them out you've officially accomplished nothing while only making yourself vulnerable: now you've just been gaslit and possibly made to doubt your own mind, nothing has changed because the narcissist will never change, and in the eyes of the onlookers you've just created drama for no reason. If anything, the onlookers--who assume your parent is a normal, loving parent like any other parent would be--probably see things in the same way the narcissist just lied and said. You're just "paranoid" and "insecure because you didn't know the word." That might make you doubt yourself all the more if everyone else agrees with them. Maybe you're crazy. Maybe you're imagining things. Maybe you're just being dramatic. _Maybe you're doing something wrong._

Only, in reality, you weren't paranoid or imagining it; nor are you wrong for wanting to be loved by your parent or wanting them to behave like a parent should. Those feelings would be natural for any child. In truth, your parent is deeply insecure and childish, and this is far from the first and only encounter with their pattern of the many different ways that they do build themselves up by making you out to be inferior in one way or another, thus deflating your self-image and self-esteem.

Throughout the years of this kind of pattern going on, your family forms a false perspective of you. Their image of you is this hateful, dramatic, insecure, ungrateful child. (In their eyes you are at fault, not the parent, so it must be that "you don't appreciate your loving parent and all that they do for you" and that's why you "misbehave" by "causing all this drama." Of course, this is exacerbated by the way that parent gives you material objects in front of others, in order to be seen by them, then guilt trips you...but that's a whole different topic.)

They can't see the true you because they cannot see the truth about the narcissist. Worse yet, you might not be able to even see yourself anymore; you began to believe the lies and can't see what a beautiful and brilliant person you are. In place of your perceptiveness, you see paranoia and delusion. Instead of boundaries you tried to assert by calling them out and saying "I'm not okay with being treated like this," you get confused as to whether or not they're crossing the line (as a result of years of gaslighting), and therefore you allow them to while blaming yourself for being "too sensitive," or "overdramatic" or "paranoid and delusional," which are more negative traits that get piled onto your self-image. Piece by piece, incident by incident, the confidence you should've had is eroded and your self-perception is poisoned.

Over time you began to question and doubt yourself, having been convinced that your assertiveness was stubbornness and your confidence was arrogance. To make you question yourself and depend on their minds rather than your own--or rather, question the truth and believe the lies they want you to believe--they tried to tell you that you were too sure of yourself if you had any degree of certainty at all. They distorted your perception of balance in these kinds of matters in order to keep you in an unhealthy place where they could continue leading you to believe what they want you to. In these ways, they shaped you. They molded you. They brainwashed you. They mentally violated you.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

@Hexcoder It must be awful to have a narcissist parent who pointed that kind of abuse towards you. I am sorry you had to go through that. And I could see where confronting them for their abuse would be undesirable. Were they otherwise a loving parent? Can you accept this about them and forgive and move on mentally? Keeping a distance might be a good idea but if it's a better relationship that you want with them them maybe confronting them with their bad behavior is in order. If you do I'd think the focus should be on how they made you feel plus what they did to make you feel that way. This will give them the opportunity to apologize if they didnt mean to hurt you and maybe understand so they stop doing it. If you get a negative reaction then confronting them might cause some distance or space that would be good or at least maybe for a time for them to think about it. I dont know if that was helpful but just some thoughts about it.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Penny said:


> It must be awful to have a narcissist parent who pointed that kind of abuse towards you. I am sorry you had to go through that. And I could see where confronting them for their abuse would be undesirable.


Ehh, it's fine. The past is the past and those wounds habe healed. My intention in posting is to simply educate others about what it's like to experience narcissism and the way that things can seem from the perspective of the onlookers.



> Were they otherwise a loving parent?


Despite that my dad is the one I used in that example, it was actually my mother who did that kind of shit. Both parents are narcissists, but with my father it manifested differently. In comparison I'd describe my mother as empty, detached, and emotionally absent, and my dad as intense and overbearing. It was just an example of the kind of stuff I went through. My mother has always been unnaturally cold and detached. She's like a hollow shell of a person and she's so devoid of empathy that she can't even see how she's like that. Below is a true story (not just a made up example) of how unnaturally cold she is. Basically, no normal mother would be like this.


* *




When I became homeless during COVID she wouldn't let me stay in one of her two spare rooms. The reason, she said, was "because your stepdad would feel uncomfortable with others here even if you stayed in the room or worked all the time." I lived in my car for about a month. At times I was afraid for my life. I have sleep problems that cause me to fall asleep randomly and have hypnagogic or hypnopompic dreams, which are basically hallucinations that you have caused by dreaming while you're awake, and at times I was hallucinating that I was being attacked. Due to the nature of my sleep problems I was unable to respond by defending myself when I thought someone was sitting in the driver seat as I slept in the back; I was going in and out of sleep, and when I'd wake up I saw him there, but I couldn't stop myself from drifting back to sleep even when I believed it was a matter of saving my own life. Eventually, after a few tries, I did manage to (much too slowly) sit up and start to wrap my arm around his neck to put him in a choke hold, which was when he disappeared and I realized it wasn't really happening. Meanwhile, my mother told me she wasn't worried about me because of being in a situation where I was living out of my car on the streets. She also said I should ask my dad if I could stay with him. For most people that suggestion would be harmless, but in this case she's well aware that my dad is extremely abusive and she spent 18 years being choked, beaten, verbally / emotionally abused, having a gun held to her head, threatened that if she ever tried to leave he'd kill her and her entire family including my brother and I, and all kinds of shit; and after she finally took my brother and I and left him, she attempted to overdose and ended up in the hospital because she was so fucked up after all of that. This is the man she told her homeless daughter to go try to stay with while she had 2 spare rooms, and for no other reason besides that my stepdad (who I barely even know the first thing about) would feel awkward with me there.




No, they were not loving--neither of them. A narcissistic parent is not a loving parent. As a child of narcissists you are "robbed" of that, as Dr. Ramani puts it. In a family of 4 (Mom, Dad, older brother, me) I was abused by all 3. Somehow I managed to end up growing up to be the only healthy one in my family--partly due to years and years of hard work on myself...healing, making sure I don't also have the same behaviors as they do, etc. Life goes on. I like to educte others and help those who go through these things now, or those who are vulnerable to it.



> Can you accept this about them and forgive and move on mentally? Keeping a distance might be a good idea but if it's a better relationship that you want with them them maybe confronting them with their bad behavior is in order. If you do I'd think the focus should be on how they made you feel plus what they did to make you feel that way. This will give them the opportunity to apologize if they didnt mean to hurt you and maybe understand so they stop doing it. If you get a negative reaction then confronting them might cause some distance or space that would be good or at least maybe for a time for them to think about it. I dont know if that was helpful but just some thoughts about it.


I've accepted it and moved on in the sense that I understand you cannot change a narcissist and it's better to just cut them out of your life. I cut my parents out a long time ago now. You cannot deal with narcissists the same way you can deal with normal people. How they made you feel doesn't matter--they will find ways to dodge responsibility, twist it and shift the blame onto you, gaslight you, and so on.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> You cannot deal with narcissists the same way you can deal with normal people.







*EDIT:*
Btw, this is also why _"those who don't ask questions are the ones who only want sex and the ones who are narcissistic"_ is NOT true whatsoever. @ENIGMA2019 It's dangerous to think that because it'll provide you with a false sense of security. Narcissistic people are usually quite the opposite in the beginning, seeming like a dream come true type of thing...so thoughtful, so considerate, etc.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Jesus. If I go by this my dad is a psychopath, not just a malignant narcissist.

When she talks about them being completely stress resistant what immediately comes to mind is how after incidents--such as car accidents, or other things thatd shake most people up--when drs check his vitals n stuff, they comment on how hes extremely calm, has a regular heartbeat, etcetera for someone who's just been through what theyve been through. "That's why they often make great surgeons..." "...calm in danger..." yeah, my dad is exactly like that. 100000000%. Always was.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)




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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Vulnerable narcissists and projection go hand-in-hand.

Most often, the very thing they are doing is what they will accuse others of doing to them. They can be very subtle in this: what can appear on surface level to be consideration of one's feelings, for instance, can actually be an attack against what they perceive to be a weakness (which, mind you, may not actually be a weakness at all, but it is something they perceive as a point of weakness and therefore target nonetheless).

I've seen the same patterns demonstrated over, and over, and over, again; by my father, by my mother, by an ex, and by others who demonstrated these behaviors along the way, though I have no way of pinpointing some of them as narcissists. Regardless, the behavioral pattern remains constant, redundant. There is nothing new, it's the same-old, same-old. By making themselves out to be the victim, they victimize the person they are claiming to be the victim of. Meanwhile, underneath the surface, they bait and attack while trying to be incognito: under the disguise of someone who is keeping their hands clean, being considerate, or appears seemingly "innocent."

I want to be clear about something. I firmly believe that the weapon of this type of narcissist is peoples' lack of insight, knowledge, and awareness about covert narcissism and the subtle dynamics that take place. It is through not seeing through the games the narcissist plays that people are able to be turned against the narcissist's victim. It is by failing to discover the truth beneath the surface that the victim is made out to be an abuser, an aggressor, a perpetrator. Sometimes, it is only the victim that knows the truth; and it is at times BECAUSE they know the truth that they are made into targets.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)




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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Vulnerable narcissists have a tendency to make everything about them. 

You got cancer? How dare you make them feel bad.
You attempted suicide? How dare you victimize them that way.

They never let things go, either.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> You attempted suicide? How dare you victimize them that way.


It's of course normal to feel shitty in response to losing someone, or almost losing someone, but normally people will at least have enough empathy to give a shit about what was going on with the person that drove them to that point, or try to understand what the person went through during that time, etc. They will at least try to find out what happened.

I recall a time when a narcissistic ex had some drunk woman beating on my bedroom door and threatening me with violence, etc. simply because I attempted suicide during a bipolar depression episode and the narcissistic ex stopped me. She kept yelling at me, telling me I need to come kill myself, etc. I pretty much just rolled my eyes and disregarded her and sent my now-ex a message that if he didn't stop her I'd call the cops. Obviously he called her off. Never once did he try to understand what had happened. He simply tried to shame and guilt me for it, victimized himself, and complained about it being in his house (we lived together). He didn't want to deal with my suicide being _there in his house_. I can't blame him, but really? That's all you're worried about? That's your priority?

Never once did he attempt to empathize with me, or understand my disorder, or be supportive at all through it. He consistently minimized and invalidated any issues I had that he felt made his seem smaller by comprison because he always had to be the victim, the sufferer, the one going through the most bullshit.

To me it wasn't a contest. I was still there for him despite what I was going through. I was empathetic, supportive, helpful, even when I did see him as overreacting and having some major rage issues. Like when his printer ran out of paper and he was absolutely fuming, I quietly went downstairs and found more and resolved his problem. Obviously this is a red flag even, but I still didn't treat him as though his problems are miniscule, guilt trip him, etc.

He was the one who compared and acted like the size of issues made a difference, not me. He was the one who acted like I was not entitled to go through my experiences. When he came home and I was in bed (on a random day, no plans were obstructed even, etc.) because of a low, he chewed me out for it. "I feel low sometimes too, I just keep going." Okay, you also don't have a disease, one whose diagnosis literally hinges upon "interferes with daily life." He never made any attempt to be understanding, supportive, or compassionate the way that I did for him.

Yet, at the same time, he tried to guilt trip me for being bad at being comforting and supportive--which this much is true, I'm bad at consoling people emotionally or dealing with the emotional realm. As demonstrated above, I' a problem solver. If I can't solve a problem I'm not the greatest person to go to. However, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and I don't feel this is deserving of the guilt trips, chewing me out, acting all angry and then giving the silent treatment, etc.

This was a form of *attacking me by making it out to be an attack against him. *Instead of considering the ways I was there, the ways I did show support, the ways I did try, and considering that I am a human with my own sets of strengths and weaknesses, and even just knowing my personality well enough to understand that the emotional realm just really isn't my strong suit, he turned what should've been interpreted as a mere personal shortcoming as if it were a direct attack and a lack of care.

Yet, in this example, the thing he accused me of--not caring--was precisely what he himself was guilty of. Never once was he supportive without later using it as a form of leverage: "look at how much I do for you." I can't even count how many times he gave himself a pat on the back for helping me move my furniture when I moved in with him. Never once was he genuinely and selflessly there for me, even enough to simply listen to what I was dealing with in my own life. There was no room to open up and share about my own issues, as he would only minimize, invalidate, and attack if I tried to just simply vent even. Meanwhile, if anything minor happened, it was the end of the world and an emotional emergency.

The thing is, he never really got through to me. I always saw through his shit, I didn't fall for it. It's for that reason that--he's right, I didn't love him or care about him. How could I love someone who was doing all of those things? Everything I did was out of mere human decency if not just me trying to bide my time while I was living there. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy almost. The way he acted about things made me genuinely not care despite that I had previously been trying to.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

That same dude successfully turned any mutual friends we had against me, too, btw.

It's automatically a red flag to me if someone pays mind to gossip, rumors, backbiting. I don't keep people who do around as friends.






He tried to use that against me. "Do you know what so-and-so thinks of you? What so-and-so-other-person thinks of you?" I kind of half smiled and said "I don't care what they think of me, because they think whatever lies you told them about me." I genuinely didn't care, either. I'd been through all of that before, got the T-shirt, it was all just redundant familiar territory. I was detached, disconnected. I had bigger issues to deal with, bigger fish to fry. And he hated that he was unable to manipulate me no matter what he threw my way.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Hexcoder What type do you consider yourself as? I'm assuming you have a brilliant visual memory and remember everything personally directed at you anyone has told you in the past, you can't forget it, am I correct?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Fru2 said:


> @Hexcoder What type do you consider yourself as? I'm assuming you have a brilliant visual memory and remember everything personally directed at you anyone has told you in the past, you can't forget it, am I correct?


I am fully settled on / confidently typed as ISTP. When I was younger my memory was tested around the same time my IQ was, and my memory was just below eidetic. I recall both things directed at me and things that are not. I used to recall a lot of my teachers' class lessons verbatim and then use that to pass tests in college, for example. When my memory actually operates at its potential and things like dissociative amnesia don't interfere, I can recall verbatim casual conversations that took place for a year or so. I also tried playing a Lumosity memory game and not only did it last way too long for me to try seeing how far I can get again, but the thing glitched out / broke because I recalled everything so well that it could no longer add a new piece.

No one has told me in the past things such as "you can't forget it," I'm a very forgiving person and I don't hold grudges, so the only time I bring things from the past up is when they are relevant to present-day patterns that are occurring or something like that. I have been told that my memory is creepy plenty of times though.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> I am fully settled on / confidently typed as ISTP. When I was younger my memory was tested around the same time my IQ was, and my memory was just below eidetic. I recall both things directed at me and things that are not. I used to recall a lot of my teachers' class lessons verbatim and then use that to pass tests in college, for example. When my memory actually operates at its potential and things like dissociative amnesia don't interfere, I can recall verbatim casual conversations that took place for a year or so. I also tried playing a Lumosity memory game and not only did it last way too long for me to try seeing how far I can get again, but the thing glitched out / broke because I recalled everything so well that it could no longer add a new piece.
> 
> No one has told me in the past things such as "you can't forget it," I'm a very forgiving person and I don't hold grudges, so the only time I bring things from the past up is when they are relevant to present-day patterns that are occurring or something like that. I have been told that my memory is creepy plenty of times though.


Fun fact, this was actually one way my father exposed himself for who he was. I had mentioned one day thefact that he held a gun to my mother's head in the past, etc. and he attempted to gaslight me, saying it wasn't an actual gun, it was just his hand/fingers held in the shape of a gun. My memory is too strong for that anyway but combined with the fact that a kid would not forget seeing their parent with a gun to their head (especially from another parent), and it troubled me enough for me to run away from home because of it when I was little...yeah, I knew he was gaslighting even back when I was still naive and he otherwise had me fooled in many other ways. In that moment he only revealed his true nature to me more. He was unable to cause me to doubt my memory as he tried to do.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Hexcoder I think you're definitely Se dom. Your Extraverted Sensing is off the roof. Not only that, your understanding of emotions and motivations shows a high Fi use, it's just that your circumstances don't allow you to be in a position to feel the same way others of that type usually do. My gf is ESFP, she has a psychopathic mother, and she too thought she was Ti dom when she had to deal with such people in her life. Emotions cannot be felt, it's no time for that, there are problems to solve to make the situation work right. More recently she thought she was INFJ, but after we got to live together, all of the signs were there that she's absolutely Se dom and she had the space, time and support to deal with the baggage, also with the same visual memory and way of memorizing things for tests, she's very much like you. Problem solving can be attributed to child Te, same way ENTJs can perform with child Se. 

Not trying to put a lable on you(as I know that in this community the lable of ESFP is not a very flattering one due to misconceptions), just wanted to share my opinion because it might turn out to your benefit. And honestly, I don't think a T-dom would be so eloquent at describing interpersonal relationships, which you have a gift for.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Fru2 said:


> @Hexcoder I think you're definitely Se dom. Your Extraverted Sensing is off the roof. Not only that, your understanding of emotions and motivations shows a high Fi use, it's just that your circumstances don't allow you to be in a position to feel the same way others of that type usually do. My gf is ESFP, she has a psychopathic mother, and she too thought she was Ti dom when she had to deal with such people in her life. Emotions cannot be felt, it's no time for that, there are problems to solve to make the situation work right. More recently she thought she was INFJ, but after we got to live together, all of the signs were there that she's absolutely Se dom and she had the space, time and support to deal with the baggage, also with the same visual memory and way of memorizing things for tests, she's very much like you. Problem solving can be attributed to child Te, same way ENTJs can perform with child Se.
> 
> Not trying to put a lable on you(as I know that in this community the lable of ESFP is not a very flattering one due to misconceptions), just wanted to share my opinion because it might turn out to your benefit. And honestly, I don't think a T-dom would be so eloquent at describing interpersonal relationships, which you have a gift for.


Out of sheer curiosity, how are you defining the functions?


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> Out of sheer curiosity, how are you defining the functions?


Based on Jung's definitions as well as personal observations that stay true to the principles he has introduced. By that I mean that the theory stays in my head and I test it out(which is how I prove through experience the theory works) and add further observations that logically are in line with it, then test them out in multiple instances, such is my brain. Te-Se.


Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10


"*No other human type can equal the extraverted sensation-type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experience with concrete objects, and the more pronounced he is, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events of his life hardly deserve [p. 458] the name 'experience'. He knows no better use for this sensed 'experience' than to make it serve as a guide to fresh sensations; anything in the least 'new' that comes within his circle of interest is forthwith turned to a sensational account and is made to serve this end. In so far as one is disposed to regard a highly developed sense for sheer actuality as very reasonable, will such men be esteemed rational. In reality, however, this is by no means the case, since they are equally subject to the sensation of irrational, chance happeningsas they are to rational behaviour.*

*Such a type -- the majority arc men apparently -- does not, of course, believe himself to be 'subject' to sensation. He would be much more inclined to ridicule this view as altogether inconclusive, since, from his standpoint, sensation is the concrete manifestation of life -- it is simply the fulness [sic] of actual living. His aim is concrete enjoyment, and his morality is similarly orientated. For true enjoyment has its own special morality, its own moderation and lawfulness, its own unselfishness and devotedness. It by no means follows that he is just sensual or gross, for he may differentiate his sensation to the finest pitch of æsthetic purity without being the least unfaithful, even in his most abstract sensations, to his principle of objective sensation.*"


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I think one of the most interesting examples of narcissistic projection / deflection I've heard of was an example from my dad. 

A bit of backstory is necessary for me to properly explain this:
My dad is an E8 and has a very "anti-victim" mentality. He is all about persevering, overcoming, finding ways to do things. He also HATES a victim stance; probably not only because he sees it as weak, but also because he's experienced my mother's vulnerable narcissism and it rubbed a raw spot on him, so to speak. With that in mind...

At some point, I confronted my dad with the ways he had treated me. I began to establish my boundaries more and flat out told him that the way he treats me is not okay or acceptable and that he was abusive to me. He began to say that I was "being a victim" and that I was "making him out to be the bad guy." I responded, "no, I'm not being a victim, l I'm telling you that you'll never make me one again."

I've always thought this was incredibly interesting because it's a little bit of a mind fuck what's going on here. In reality, I was calling him out and establishing boundaries. In response, he basically was positioning himself as the victim by accusing _me_ of having a victim mentality. His accusation was him identifying what he himself was clearly doing: having a victim mentality. It goes against everything he constantly preaches against and at that moment I realized his hypocrisy. This was around the time when I was still first "waking up" to the reality of what had been going on, realizing I had been being abused and manipulated by him. It was as if his entire facade came crumbling down and I could see underneath his image. I could see this man who detested the vulnerability of being in a victim position, and cleaved to the control and dominance of someone who was not a victim, but also positioned himself as a victim when it was a form of control.

His deflection was an attempt to "disarm" me, or get me to change my stance and not stand firmly on a boundary. He even later attempted to convince me that I should "teach" him (by example) to be "less like him" (in the sense of being bold, confronting things head-on, not backing down, etc.; ) that maybe I could teach him gentleness. I kind of had to laugh at that. Here was a man who doesn't take instructions from anyone, especially his daughter (believing he is supposed to be the man and the father guide type role), and any other time wants to be fiercely independent, dominant, in control, etc...and yet here he is saying I should "teach" him. I saw through it and knew it was merely an attempt to get me to return to the vulnerable position I used to be in before I began to wake up. This was later confirmed when he contradicted himself later on, saying he could never be "gentler" that way and it isn't for him. (His memory is pretty bad.)

Gentle my ass, that's called being a pushover.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Fru2 said:


> Based on Jung's definitions as well as personal observations that stay true to the principles he has introduced. By that I mean that the theory stays in my head and I test it out(which is how I prove through experience the theory works) and add further observations that logically are in line with it, then test them out in multiple instances, such is my brain. Te-Se.
> 
> 
> Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10
> ...


I don't think I will ever be able to overlook how mind-numbingly verbose Jung is. Any time I read his work I'm like "Okay guy, just spit it out--what are you even actually saying?" Frankly, I don't think anyone legitimately knows. He was terrible at communication.

Do you think it's possible for a T to be a good psychologist?


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> I don't think I will ever be able to overlook how mind-numbingly verbose Jung is. Any time I read his work I'm like "Okay guy, just spit it out--what are you even actually saying?" Frankly, I don't think anyone legitimately knows. He was terrible at communication.
> 
> Do you think it's possible for a T to be a good psychologist?


Of course it's possible, as every action can be logically deconstructed and understood through deductive principles. Does it mean that communication with patients would go easier? Perhaps not, but a psychologist isn't there to make friends with the patients, They're there to understand the problem at hand and offer a solution, often without the patient knowing that the solution has already been applied. The psycholoist is there to guide the process that is necessary.

I see his text as most reliable, all other material has logical inconsistencies, fallacies and just a reliance on stereotypes and generalizations. Keep in mind that his writings are meant to be read by practicing psychologists, so it's by default not easy to understand. Jung really addresses the matter at hand - each type has a main motivation, and a main tool to help them with it. Aka main and aux functions. You can call me crazy, but I see Jung as a wise INTP friend whose words I keep in mind in case I spot something like that happening, and more often than not when I return to the text I can see what has led to whatever was playing out in front of me. Then I look to see the motivation play out again, and so can understand what the main motivation of the person is.

I can't give you clear cut definitions of all functions, but if you give me a type, I'll describe how their psyche works shortly.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Fru2 said:


> Of course it's possible, as every action can be logically deconstructed and understood through deductive principles. Does it mean that communication with patients would go easier? Perhaps not, but a psychologist isn't there to make friends with the patients, They're there to understand the problem at hand and offer a solution, often without the patient knowing that the solution has already been applied. The psycholoist is there to guide the process that is necessary.


Then why is this one of your points for my type?


> Not only that, your understanding of emotions and motivations shows a high Fi use, it's just that your circumstances don't allow you to be in a position to feel the same way others of that type usually do.


And what makes you think that my understanding of emotions and motivations comes from high Fi use rather than a lifetime of experience, research, majoring in psychology, going through some therapy, hard work toward growing into a healthier person, and learning out of interest created by real life experience?



> I see his text as most reliable, all other material has logical inconsistencies, fallacies and just a reliance on stereotypes and generalizations. Keep in mind that his writings are meant to be read by practicing psychologists, so it's by default not easy to understand. Jung really addresses the matter at hand - each type has a main motivation, and a main tool to help them with it. Aka main and aux functions. You can call me crazy, but I see Jung as a wise INTP friend whose words I keep in mind in case I spot something like that happening, and more often than not when I return to the text I can see what has led to whatever was playing out in front of me. Then I look to see the motivation play out again, and so can understand what the main motivation of the person is.
> 
> I can't give you clear cut definitions of all functions, but if you give me a type, I'll describe how their psyche works shortly.


I respect your opinion, but I believe we may see things a bit differently. Jung's work was based on his own observations rather than collective data. I don't take any of the nomothetic theories seriously at all. They are among astrology to me. Saying "I'm an ISTP" is not much different in my mind than saying "I'm an Aries." It's just a fun thing.

With that in mind, I have already wasted over 6 years on type exploration (and am unwilling to waste more) and I've read many resources, including Jung's, and I myself go by his definitions as well. I have also used the official MBTI assessment with a certified practitioner (don't laugh at me, I didn't pay for it, he did it with me for free out of personal interest in me). The tools provided were from official resources, therefore. I type as ISTP according to both (I do relate the most to Ti) but I primarily go by dichotomies. Honestly, me as an E is unthinkable though. If you got to know me and then looked back on your suggestion you'd likely get a good chuckle out of it because of how extreme my introversion is. At the end of the day, I know myself best.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. You were just trying to offer some input / advice, and with as much confusion as there is in the typology community, I can't blame you. You also never claimed to know me better than I know myself. I'm just trying to politely say "thanks, but that's inaccurate."


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Hexcoder the process of understanding emotions and motivations highly differs from logical deconstruction, so it's not the same. The former can be seen in your last comment, as you were trying to gently create boundaries, which I will respect and bid you a good day.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Fru2 said:


> @Hexcoder the process of understanding emotions and motivations highly differs from logical deconstruction, so it's not the same. The former can be seen in your last comment, as you were trying to gently create boundaries, which I will respect and bid you a good day.


Perhaps you have a point after all. Surely no T would be capable of such rudimentary level social functioning as "gently creating boundaries." I guess we're all just boundary-less blobs pining away for Fs to rescue us from our autism.

Also, I think this is probably one of the first times I've ever been called "good at understanding emotions." Everyone complains of the opposite during interactions. But sure. Thanks.

Farewell 👋


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Hexcoder said:


> Jesus. If I go by this my dad is a psychopath, not just a malignant narcissist.
> 
> When she talks about them being completely stress resistant what immediately comes to mind is how after incidents--such as car accidents, or other things thatd shake most people up--when drs check his vitals n stuff, they comment on how hes extremely calm, has a regular heartbeat, etcetera for someone who's just been through what theyve been through. "That's why they often make great surgeons..." "...calm in danger..." yeah, my dad is exactly like that. 100000000%. Always was.


This video was great and I love her take on much of it, but my resistance meter is going off because the ways in which she is using the term are now applicable to literally anything almost.

When she specifies the types of narcissism, it's as if she takes the enneagram and goes through it showing us many types of narcissism. I have to disagree in that sense.

She is effectively relating narcissism to ego itself, personality, the vector of the enneagram (for instance) that each type is. But the thing is EVERYONE is one of the types. So, essentially her VERY HIGH percentage is still low. EVERYONE is a narcissist (as she defines it). It's only a matter of which category of narcissist they are.

Beware though! Because that means you, dear reader, and her audience, are also narcissists. It means we can all discover a way in which we are a narcissist. And this is true if you conflate the term with ego (as she is). You can see how she becomes more careful as she expresses this (weak) part of her argument.

In essence then, beware as well, because your experience is NOT unique, NOT special, NOT abnormal. You are just one more of ALL. Your feeling of specialness is just your enneatype 4 vector deluding you, if you get it. Your dislike of that which makes you uncomfortable is your hedonistic 7 speaking to you, deluding you. And indeed, with respect to psychopathy, your dispassionate observer 5, your cold calculating prepper 6, and your dish it out I can take it, love because-of 2; are all at fault. Let's no EVEN mention the tough love challenger 8! Nope! That's my type! How dare you! Oh, wait it was me, and yes I dare!

There is no safe space. Safe spaces are delusional. There are only RELATIVELY safe spaces where people are actively TRYING by intent to make that place, that space, safe. How you feel is a choice YOU make alone, ultimately. So who is to blame for that space, your feelings, not being safe? If you blame only others you disempower yourself. If you blame yourself you are empowering your choice to change and demand/seek better. Incompetence, inability, even that of a child, is not relevant to choice. Choice is infinite in power. It contains within it even the choice to be, to live, to continue, amid suffering and earn wisdom. 

Yes, we all live in a sea of egos. The ego is that which perceives itself as separate. The way in which this ego feels this is itself divided into (at least 9) differing vectors. We may all be narcissists, but we are also all worthy humans. Avoid that label as all labels. I DISAGREE with her message. DO ... engage with them, unless you can't handle it. Unless you that understands engages, there is no hope. If you also are a narcissist, and you are, should no one engage with you also? Where does it end? 

We all like to pretend that there is a line we all know that is 'too much'. That line either does not exist (my opinion) or it is constantly changing. The truth is that NO ONE is toxic to the wise. They are you and you are them. You can diffuse the immorality if you engage, challenge, teach, ... and that IS NOT condescension or gaslighting. Those terms REQUIRE evil intent to be accurate. Narcissism should require an overall and persistent evil intent to be accurate as a diagnosis. Drop that bar low enough and test anyone hard enough and we are all narcissists. 

Being as the interviewer in this video says, 'really stung' is ... NOTHING. It's just a single bad moment. Way way way way too many people get stuck on that single moment. They let it color everything else. The MOUNTAIN of CONSISTENT evidence to the contrary is ignored in favor of one moment of 'really stung'. You know what really stings? Truth. Lies really don't sting the wise at all. They are pathetic and normal. Truth is a bitch. It hurts a lot.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

@Allostasis - sorry for the repeat post here, I just wanted to include this on this thread as well. I figure it could potentially be relevant for some readers' personal situations, get them to stop and consider the potential consequences and losses that may transpire from being too forgiving. I thought it should probably be added to a thread on this topic so it can be located by those who might benefit from it by learning from my mistakes.



Allostasis said:


> I am not saying that your views are utterly useless.
> In some cases, trying to exercise patience and belief in people might pull someone out of hell theoretically where everyone else gave up.
> I am not against improvement when it makes sense.


I agree with what you're saying, mostly just adding to it.

I don't give up on people easily at all, but I also know that sometimes it's a matter of wisdom to know when to give up on someone/something.



Allostasis said:


> Sometimes fixing others requires you to sacrifice your own life or someone close to you. And there are no guarantees that you will succeed.


I have personal experience with this. I actually had set out to help my dad from the get-go. I saw pain, I saw hardship, I saw a man who was isolated and in search of love. I remember many times when I thought I'd never give up on him, even said it to him before.

During the time that I dedicated to him I went from a 4.0 college GPA (that is the maximum here) and going into honors classes, to failing because I was being abused so much that I didn't have time for homework, didn't have time for studying at all, and couldn't focus in my classes. Being abused consumed all of my time and I had to drop school.

Seeing as how he was at risk of going to jail for not paying child support because he had financial problems, I paid his child support payments to keep him out of jail. Eventually, once that was paid off, it evolved into me paying for his other bills as well and him guilting me into doing so, as if I had an obligation to my family that way. I gave him thousands and thousands of dollars. At one point I was working 2 jobs and still was unable to provide for myself basic needs such as clothes and vehicle repairs because my money was going toward supporting him rather than making a life for myself in my early 20's. It didn't take long for me to lose one of those jobs as a result of his abuse making me late all the time. He took no responsibility for that, just gaslighted me and wanted me to believe it was my own fault.

The job parts of this post are a bit out of sequence but I'm not retyping this. At the other job he would intimidate and threaten my coworkers, although I actually kind of appreciated it back then because they were treating me like shit because of my symptoms...but my hours were insufficient for multiple reasons. I was only a filler, there as a backup because I could be counted on to show up at least, and I can now look back and see how insane some of what he did was and I would no longer approve of it.

When I was unable to repair my vehicle (which I used for work) because all my money went to him, I lost that job; though I accepted an inside position with fewer hours. It was a major repair so I had to sell the car. For 5 years I went without a car (which is a need, not a want in the USA) and often depended upon him for transportation, which he was not reliable for: he caused me to be late due to the way his abuse interfered with my everyday life, consuming hours upon hours because he didn't respect my time, his abusing me was evidently more important than any of my responsibilities. (And ofc, then he was abusive about me struggling with those responsibilities.)

He convinced me my career choice was wrong and I lost my opportunity because by the time I understood what happened, it was too late.

He interfered with any and all romantic interests I found and convinced me I'd never find someone; the time most people spend meeting someone to create a life with was time I spent adapting to this idea that I'd never have a partner or a family of my own. Actually, his abusiveness tore my self-esteem down so much that I thought if even my own dad could barely tolerate me (I thought I was just that fucked up and he was correcting me), then surely no one would desire to be with me in a romantic way. Now all of that time has been wasted and I'm only about 5 years away from never being able to have kids and I haven't even met someone yet. It may be that I actually do miss out on being able to have a family now, I don't know. 5 years is not a lot of time for meeting, getting serious with, and settling down with someone.

My disabilities went untreated as they were blamed on me and attributed to my character--I could have gotten treatment and made certain decisions differently, which would have significantly improved the quality of my life both then and in the future.

The best years of my life are now gone and I can't get them back. All of my 20's--gone, and after sacrificing so much to try to pull him out of where he was, he still hasn't changed after several years.

One day I mentioned how I helped him so much. His response to me was, "I don't remember that."


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> @Allostasis - sorry for the repeat post here, I just wanted to include this on this thread as well. I figure it could potentially be relevant for some readers' personal situations, get them to stop and consider the potential consequences and losses that may transpire from being too forgiving. I thought it should probably be added to a thread on this topic so it can be located by those who might benefit from it by learning from my mistakes.
> 
> 
> I agree with what you're saying, mostly just adding to it.
> ...


I feel your pain, and I am very sorry you had to endure this. All you did for someone who doesn’t deserve it, and it’s even capable of accepting so much sacrifice from their kid which is inadmissible.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rainbowrama said:


> I feel your pain, and I am very sorry you had to endure this. All you did for someone who doesn’t deserve it, and it’s even capable of accepting so much sacrifice from their kid which is inadmissible.


Usually I respond to these kinds of messages with some message saying, "no worries, no pain, it's purely for educational purposes," or something along those lines. With this one I can't say that. That post doesn't even hardly begin to cover the amount of damage that was done, nor does it list every loss I have endured, and still do endure more than a year after going no contact entirely, as a result of my family's actions. There have been times when I looked at my life (my mind, my circumstances, etc.) and felt like it was as parallel to looking at the aftermath of Hurricane Dorian. But when the pain of where you are is greater than the pain it takes to get to elsewhere, you move forward. Even when you have no hope, as long as you have a reason to remain living, you move forward. Not necessarily because you're strong enough to, but because the pain is so great that you have no choice but to do whatever it takes to stop it. People always say, "you're strong for getting through all that you have." The truth is something more like...not having the strength to continue going through life the way that it is and thus being desperate to overcome and change it all. As you rebuild your life things improve, taking with you lessons and wisdom that can't ever be taken away. You realize there are things you gained that made it all seem worth it. I don't really know if I would change my past if I could, to be honest...other than the part where I had to give up my cats a few years ago. I still worry about whether they're okay, wonder what kind of home they went to, worry about whether they're loved and treated well and happy. I lost a lot, sure; so much that sometimes I look at my life and realize I've got next to nothing. But there are also things I've been able to gain only because of the way my life has been, and now that the pain is healed it seems worth it.


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Hexcoder said:


> Usually I respond to these kinds of messages with some message saying, "no worries, no pain, it's purely for educational purposes," or something along those lines. With this one I can't say that. That post doesn't even hardly begin to cover the amount of damage that was done, nor does it list every loss I have endured, and still do endure more than a year after going no contact entirely, as a result of my family's actions. There have been times when I looked at my life (my mind, my circumstances, etc.) and felt like it was as parallel to looking at the aftermath of Hurricane Dorian. But when the pain of where you are is greater than the pain it takes to get to elsewhere, you move forward. Even when you have no hope, as long as you have a reason to remain living, you move forward. Not necessarily because you're strong enough to, but because the pain is so great that you have no choice but to do whatever it takes to stop it. People always say, "you're strong for getting through all that you have." The truth is something more like...not having the strength to continue going through life the way that it is and thus being desperate to overcome and change it all. As you rebuild your life things improve, taking with you lessons and wisdom that can't ever be taken away. You realize there are things you gained that made it all seem worth it. I don't really know if I would change my past if I could, to be honest...other than the part where I had to give up my cats a few years ago. I still worry about whether they're okay, wonder what kind of home they went to, worry about whether they're loved and treated well and happy. I lost a lot, sure; so much that sometimes I look at my life and realize I've got next to nothing. But there are also things I've been able to gain only because of the way my life has been, and now that the pain is healed it seems worth it.


It’s like forward is the only direction available. But you ARE brave and strong for doing it nonetheless. I understand what you mean about having nothing, I am also in the exact same place. God this is hard. You deserve lots of love though, I pray that you will find all those things that were so wrongfully taken from you. ❤


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Rainbowrama said:


> It’s like forward is the only direction available. But you ARE brave and strong for doing it nonetheless. I understand what you mean about having nothing, I am also in the exact same place. God is hard. You deserve lots of love though, I pray that you will find all those things that were so wrongfully taken from you. ❤


Yeah, basically. Forward is the only direction available because you can't rewind life and stagnation is not an option when where you are is too painful to bear. It's like being in a house that's on fire: you'll jump out of a goddamn window and break your bone from the landing if you have to, whatever it takes to get out alive. To die would be better than continuing to burn alive and something's got to give; you're on fire and you're either going to die or escape. When a person complains without searching for solutions I can tell they're not truly being stretched to the edge of their thresholds or limits.

I'm sorry you're in the same place loss wise. I remember you spoke of going no contact with a narcissist yourself. Is that part of it? I guess that's probably a stupid question...I'm not the greatest at trying to get people to share, lol.

I don't believe in God, but thanks for the thoughts and good will.

How do you feel about your own experiences? Would you change it if you could?


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## Rainbowrama (May 30, 2018)

Living on the edge, like you’ve said, it’s like second nature for people who have been raised by these monsters. It’s all about survival.

Thanks for asking, well, in my family I have 3 people who have cluster B personality disorders. The rest of the family just goes with it, which is pretty common.

How do I feel? Well, most of the time I feel relief and even a mad joy to know I am free. The only issue in my life now are the consequences they’ve left me: Financial struggles, isolation, etc... 
I wouldn’t change anything, no. I left as soon as it was possible.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Thank you for making this thread. It is helping me through a tough time. I keep making the mistake thinking my dad/sister will change and after the other day- I am done with them/all of it. Clean break seems to be what has worked best in your situations and I for some reason knew I experienced the same things but, my situation was different. It is laughable that I even thought that. 

Thanks again for being open with your experiences!


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

I guess I'm lucky. None of my immediate family or anyone I regularly associate with are narcissists as far as I'm aware. But my aunt and her oldest daughter are I think. The rest of us in the extended family have little or nothing to do with them any more.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

ENIGMA2019 said:


> Thank you for making this thread. It is helping me through a tough time. I keep making the mistake thinking my dad/sister will change and after the other day- I am done with them/all of it. Clean break seems to be what has worked best in your situations and I for some reason knew I experienced the same things but, my situation was different. It is laughable that I even thought that.
> 
> Thanks again for being open with your experiences!


I'm sorry you're having to deal with that but I'm glad that this thread is able to help you out. That is exactly why I'm writing here.

Breaking off from family can be especially difficult. It's natural for us to love them despite the abusive nature. It can be very confusing at times as well. I still sometimes consider talking to my dad when I recall the ways he seemed to genuinely care or the ways he helped me out. It's easy to remember the good and I have to consciously remind myself of the negatives and the ways he has demonstrated he doesn't care enough even if he did care some, because when you care about someone you don't treat them the ways he treated me.

If there is one thing that helped me establish appropriate boundaries (which in this case includes the no contact) more than anything else, it has been self-love. I set standards for how I expect (and deserve) to be treated and I don't allow myself to be treated poorly just because someone seems to "care." Sometimes my brother or mother send me text messages asking how I'm doing, too...I will at times respond with shallow, superficial talk like just saying I'm ok, not letting them know any of my personal information such as "no, I'm not really, actually. I'm going through x and y." I know better than to interpret it as care when they check up on me. I know that if I let that open any doors then the toxic behaviors they refuse to change will come walking through those doors. NONE of my family understands the reasons behind my actions. In order to understand them they would have to accept that they have done something to drive me to that point.

They perceive my cutting them off as though I'm the badguy, and/or they don't understand at all why I don't come around more. They see me as a user because in my desperation during crises I asked for a place to stay, for example. It comes from a selfish place of refusing to take a look at my side and understand they drove me away and refusing to admit to their faults; their same old usual. They can do no wrong, so surely it must be from some way that I am or from something I'm doing wrong rather than them having anything to do with my decision. I can't show them or open their eyes, so I just let their accusational stances persist while I move on, knowing that if I die before them no one at my funeral would even remember me for the person I am and they'd all just talk shit about me while my mother uses it to gain sympathy for herself and makes it all about her. It can be hard because you want them to see the truth, but they never will. It's something you just have to accept and move on from without being caught up in trying to change their views.

*EDIT:*
I don't know if your situation is similar to any of these things, but I figured maybe it'd be better to prepare you for what you may encounter. Narcissistic patterns generally tend to be very similar from one person to the next.


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## ENIGMA2019 (Jun 1, 2015)

Hexcoder said:


> I'm sorry you're having to deal with that but I'm glad that this thread is able to help you out. That is exactly why I'm writing here.
> 
> Breaking off from family can be especially difficult. It's natural for us to love them despite the abusive nature. It can be very confusing at times as well. I still sometimes consider talking to my dad when I recall the ways he seemed to genuinely care or the ways he helped me out. It's easy to remember the good and I have to consciously remind myself of the negatives and the ways he has demonstrated he doesn't care enough even if he did care some, because when you care about someone you don't treat them the ways he treated me.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate this post! I have gone months to almost a year not speaking to them before. I thought things would change and really for my daughter's sake most of all -tried to maintain a relationship with them. Life being short and people are not perfect. Blah blah blah This has been a cycle for years. I relate 100% to a lot of what you said. The line was beyond crossed this past Sunday and I will never forget/get over it. EVER. I oddly, have no anger/ill will today. I am numb and will give myself until Saturday to process things/work through them and then hit restart and rebuild my life without them. My daughter sees/been seeing (now) things for what they are and she is grown enough to decide where she wants to invest her time and energy. I did my part. I wash my hands of them. Excuses of health, they have issue or any other number of things that has caused me to overlook the fact that I just need to remove them completely from my life. Nothing will change and some things are just beyond forgivable/looking past. I would never put up with it from anyone else and I damn sure will not put up with it a moment longer with them. Enough damage has been done. Blood or not.

Thank you again for being vulnerable enough to post about your personal experiences relating to this and other things. It makes a huge difference when someone else understands/has been through something similar and how they deal with getting through it/to the other side.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

[wrong thread]


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

[redacted]


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm very authentic, but by this definition rather than merely the standard one most think of. The only part I don't quite have 100% is the graciousness. I call narcissists out and I don't care that they don't like me because of it.






But yeah, I am very ahead of my years in this department. I would add that if anything, it's actually _caused by_ my experiences with narcissists to some extent.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Usually these kinds of quotes suck but this is actually true. Scapegoat life...


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Hexcoder reminds me of this:


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

Hexcoder said:


> @Allostasis - sorry for the repeat post here, I just wanted to include this on this thread as well. I figure it could potentially be relevant for some readers' personal situations, get them to stop and consider the potential consequences and losses that may transpire from being too forgiving. I thought it should probably be added to a thread on this topic so it can be located by those who might benefit from it by learning from my mistakes.
> 
> 
> I agree with what you're saying, mostly just adding to it.
> ...


That's really rough you're amazing for doing all that and coping with it to be honest. 

Even though it has caused lasting damage to your life, I think that you've done well to be here and talk about it.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

My mother calls me once every few months to see if I'm still alive. When she can't get a hold of me she pulls out one of a few strategies: "acting like it's urgent" or "acting like there's something in it for Hex." Sometimes she is trying to gather intel, other times I'm honestly not even sure why she calls.

This time she says she owes me an apology about something. To most people it sounds great, but for those who actually know my mom like I do, it really means nothing. She does the same exact shit still, nothing changes, and she clearly does not even actually feel sorry, which is obvious because it shows in a plethora of ways.

I wonder if this "I need to apologise" is a new one she's added to the "ways to get Hex to pay attention to me" list, because in our somewhat more recent exchanges (a year or two ago--like I said though, she calls me once every few months) I fully cut her off, changed my number, went completely off the map for her and left her no way to get in touch with me--except for one way that I'd forgotten about, through which she sent an apology to me and admitted she was wrong (aka a goddamn miracle happened), so I accepted. She went back to doing the same shit though, and I thought... "well, I'd like to know when a relative dies or something anyway, so I'll leave it like this."

Her calling every few months is nothing more than an annoyance to me. Most people would never understand this, I'd just sound like an awful daughter. Those who understand narcissism--they get it. She never changes and she never will. Her apologies are insincere, I'm still the scapegoat, I still can't even share basic good news about my life because she actively makes efforts to destroy whatever I gain, she still repeats the same behaviors / words (such as telling me go live with my abusive father) she allegedly felt so sorry for, so wtf does an apology actually mean other than "hey pay attention to me, pick up the phone" or something at most?

IDK. She feels so dead to me. I know if she died tomorrow I'd feel relief and joy, not pain...and I am not even ashamed of that. I think anyone in my shoes would feel the same way. Joy, because...maybe then, without her constant calumination, I could finally establish some sort of relationship with the rest of my family at least instead of having to cut them all off and be more isolated than I have ever deserved. Even as a young child, a toddler, though...I have never felt connected with her. It's so unnatural...as if no one is even there to connect to, all that exists is an empty vessel that resembles a human.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> IDK. She feels so dead to me. *I know if she died tomorrow I'd feel relief and joy, not pain...*and I am not even ashamed of that. I think anyone in my shoes would feel the same way. Joy, because...maybe then, without her constant calumination, I could finally establish some sort of relationship with the rest of my family at least instead of having to cut them all off and be more isolated than I have ever deserved. Even as a young child, a toddler, though...I have never felt connected with her. It's so unnatural...as if no one is even there to connect to, all that exists is an empty vessel that resembles a human.


I am not the only victim of narcissism who feels this way, btw.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Smh, I haven't talked to her yet, and already I'm trying to anticipate things based on extrapolation from past patterns, come up with an exit strategy, etc.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Thinking about my mother's apology. I wasn't expecting much (it's my way of preventing disappointment and hurt), but she was actually rather sincere about a rather significant thing she did and she followed up the apology with action. She apologised for not being more supportive when I told her about the sexual abuse I went through as a kid--being kind of dismissive, supporting the excuses, etc. I went ahead and shared how it made me feel when no one believed me for years, how it made me feel when the person who did it just made excuses, etc. and she fully listened and empathised, and said her situation with someone else who sexually abused her as a kid was basically identical with the excuses, so she understands. I was surprised. Tbh though...I'd almost rather her not, because I prefer for her to be consistently one way or the other; hot or cold, shitty mom or good mom. Mixed signals are more painful than purely shitty mom. It's like getting a taste of what you were always missing while knowing you can never have the real thing.


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