# 7-year-old step-daughter peeing her pants and lying about it



## Elaminopy

My wife and I have been having an issue with her daughter, my step-daughter. She was potty-trained at 2 and since then her parents got a divorce and she moved in with me. She stays with us most of the time and stays with her dad every other weekend.

Lately she's been peeing her pants every day. At school, at home, at her dads. It's one thing for her to do it while we're in the car and she can't hold it. But she does it at home, 15 feet away from the bathroom. We'll just see this big wet spot on her butt or see her walking by us in such a way as to hide it. When we ask her, she either denies it or feels her pants to see if they're wet, then will admit it if they are.

We've asked her why she has wet her pants and the only answer I've ever gotten from her is that sometimes she can't feel it when she has to go or when it comes out. We've taken her to the doctor and he said there's nothing wrong, she just needs to try to stretch her bladder so she can hold it longer. I don't think being unable to hold it is the core issue. I think she gets too busy playing and distracted and tries to hold it and is unable to hold it for as long as she wanted to. I think it's easier to just go in her pants and she doesn't want to use the bathroom all the time. She sometimes has to go 20 minutes after just going. I know that I'd hate to run into the bathroom that often, and maybe if I was used to going in my pants, it might be an attractive option.

It's hard to know whether to believe her or not. I've noticed that she's really good at finding excuses that are both plausible and hard to prove either way. She got in trouble last night for telling her 3-year-old brother to throw their toy microwave. He got in trouble when he did, but she denied telling him to. When my wife said that she was right in the other room and distinctly heard her say it, she said, "Well, I think I said _slide_ it over here." When my wife didn't accept that, she went further into deniability and claimed that maybe she did say throw or slide, but doesn't remember saying that. Of course I was at work so I can't know either way, so I default to the side of my wife. I have to take it with a grain of salt, though, since I've witnessed her many times be overly quick to jump to conclusions based on assumptions. She's an ISFJ and can be pretty overbearing when she's trying to get an answer out of her. I'm more inclined to believe that she's not lying unless there's undeniable proof, which puts me in a bad light to my wife and she thinks I'm against her as well. My wife thinks she's peeing to get attention.

Aside from her peeing and lying, she loves going to her father's place. He lives with his new girlfriend and she has daughters who are a little older than my daughter. She gets to play with them, go outside in the apartment complex and across the parking lot without supervision. She gets to stay up as late as she wants to. She often doesn't bathe. She often comes home with flea bites. He buys her stuff all the time and takes her to Chuck E. Cheese's a lot with the money he makes under the table and refuses to give my wife for child support. And then she comes here and only has a 3-year-old brother who pushes her around, a home with schedules, rules and bedtimes, she has to do her homework, and she can't go out unless we watch her.

My wife is at her wit's end. I just consoled her from crying at lunch time because she doesn't know what to do. She's supposed to go to her father's for half of winter break, but my wife is wanting her to go the whole break because she can't deal with her right now. She's tired of her lying, peeing her pants, and having no respect for her. She said it's the same as when her and her mom would fight and she ended up hating her mom. She's afraid that our daughter's going to end up hating her and loving her father more. She's about to just have her live there and she wishes she let him have full custody in the beginning.

I feel caught in the middle and helpless. I don't really have authority over her to make these types of decisions. I've tried telling my wife all the reasons for keeping her with us, but she is beginning to think that those aren't good enough.


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## Ace Face

Ever consider that it's her way of saying, "I'm not happy with you." Do you and your wife actually talk to this child other than when she's done something "wrong"? She may just be desperate for your love and attention. A child who's heard is a happy child indeed. Has anybody asked her how she feels about her parents being separated? These things have a great influence on children, and it's not fair that they can't speak their thoughts on such important situations especially when they're given no say. Also, she may have bladder/kidney problems, and I would suggest perhaps getting it checked out.


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## reletative

I'm kind of reading between the lines, but it sounds like your wife gets really worked up about the peeing her pants and lying thing, and she goes into each confrontation with her daughter already prepared for a fight and a lie. Your daughter will react to this and start responding with lying and fighting. Kids respond how they think they're expected to.

I have a pretty difficult kid and the biggest way to make headway with him is to talk to him, never raise your voice, and always understand his point of view before coming down with a punishment. He always has a reason for doing something. He has to be heard and listened to before he stop any behavior. 

Kids usually act out in an attempt to communicate something. They are rarely ever just misbehaving or disobeying for the hell of it. It will take time and some damage control on your wife's part. I would say your wife should sit down with her daughter over and over again over the next few months and give her some one-on-one attention and talk to her daughter about why she lies and pees her pants. Your wife will need to create a safe place for your daughter to talk. Again, I know I'm reading between the lines with this, but this is my best analysis of your situation.

Also, your daughter probably likes going to her father's because she "never gets in trouble." Children KNOW when they're parents "can't handle them right now". Working on the bond between mother and daughter will help everything else fall into place.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> Ever consider that it's her way of saying, "I'm not happy with you." Do you and your wife actually talk to this child other than when she's done something "wrong"? She may just be desperate for your love and attention. A child who's heard is a happy child indeed. Has anybody asked her how she feels about her parents being separated? These things have a great influence on children, and it's not fair that they can't speak their thoughts on such important situations especially when they're given no say. Also, she may have bladder/kidney problems, and I would suggest perhaps getting it checked out.


Yes we talk to her. We probably should spend more time with her. But from what she says, she spends most of her time at her dad's with the other girls, so it's not like she gets more attention there. I've noticed that she's pretty hesitant. My son will run over to me with a huge smile on his face and climb on me. I'll tickle him and try to push him away because I'm watching something. He'll laugh and keep coming back and I'll keep doing it back, enjoying it as well. She'll stand nearby and watch and say "Can you do that to me, too?" Uh, how do I do the same to her when she's not doing what he's doing? I'm responding to what he's doing. As soon as he stops, I'll go back to what I was doing. I will try to do the same with her, but I try to explain that's it's cause and effect. He does something and I respond. If she does the same, she'll get the same response. It's difficult to get enthusiastic with her approach. Sometimes she will and I'll do the same and she'll enjoy it, but it still seems awkward on her part. That's not her normal way of playing. She doesn't play that way unless she sees her brother play that way with me first. She's more about making stories and roles up and less physical. She seems to want his type of play but with her type of approach.

We haven't asked her how she feels about the divorce situation. I'll do that tonight. The only thing my wife seems to hear is how much she likes going to her dad's and how she likes it over there better. She's tired of hearing about it and wants to just give in.

But anyway, what about the letting her stay at her dad's? I don't think it's the right thing, but I could always be wrong.


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## reletative

Its possible she feels like her brother has more connection to you than she does. Divorce is confusing for children. They don't understand the adult relationship dynamics and their whole world revolves around themselves, so they naturally assume that divorce took place because of something THEY did. With her father not living in her house anymore, and her brother connecting to you easier, she may feel like an outsider and peeing is to get attention. 

Your second post makes me think even more that she needs one-on-one time. Can you and your wife take her out on "Special dates" a couple times a month without her brother? Take her to get ice cream or french fries or something and talk to her about herself. It will make her feel like she's important and connected to you.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> Yes we talk to her. We probably should spend more time with her. But from what she says, she spends most of her time at her dad's with the other girls, so it's not like she gets more attention there. I've noticed that she's pretty hesitant. My son will run over to me with a huge smile on his face and climb on me. I'll tickle him and try to push him away because I'm watching something. He'll laugh and keep coming back and I'll keep doing it back, enjoying it as well. *She'll stand nearby and watch and say "Can you do that to me, too?" Uh, how do I do the same to her when she's not doing what he's doing?* I'm responding to what he's doing. As soon as he stops, I'll go back to what I was doing. I will try to do the same with her, but I try to explain that's it's cause and effect. He does something and I respond. If she does the same, she'll get the same response. It's difficult to get enthusiastic with her approach. Sometimes she will and I'll do the same and she'll enjoy it, but it still seems awkward on her part. That's not her normal way of playing. She doesn't play that way unless she sees her brother play that way with me first. She's more about making stories and roles up and less physical. She seems to want his type of play but with her type of approach.
> 
> We haven't asked her how she feels about the divorce situation. I'll do that tonight. The only thing my wife seems to hear is how much she likes going to her dad's and how she likes it over there better. She's tired of hearing about it and wants to just give in.


You're the adult, engage her. She shouldn't have to come crawling to your for attention and love. Just give it to her. Let her know that she matters and that she can talk to you when she's hurt, upset, or bothered by anything. Being the step-parent, it's crucial that you make sure she's treated just like your child. Ever consider that she may not feel that you love her since you don't show her the same affection you do your own son? Approach her, take her out for an ice cream and talk... just the two of you. She's a child... she wants love, affection, and good attention from you. That's what any child wants more than anything... to feel loved and adored by family... to have laughter, love, and joy. It is your responsibility to make sure she's getting that by giving her love, support, and someone to talk to so she doesn't have to lash out. She understands feelings. Just talk to her. Don't make her feel like she's a bad kid. Make sense?


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## Elaminopy

@Khys, exactly. This is how I feel as well. I can tell my wife that and she may even agree whole-heartedly, but her putting it into practice is another thing altogether. I've noticed that most of our arguments start with her getting upset at me for some reason, me responding to her upset and trying to figure out what's wrong, just to learn that she was in a bad mood. Seriously, this is an exact exchange we had lately:

*Her:* (to her daughter) We use the big forks. You and your brother use the little ones. Other than that, you did a good job setting the table.
*Daughter:* Sorry.
*Her:* No, it's okay. You did good. We just use the big forks.
*Me:* Well, we use the small forks _sometimes_ depending on the food.
*Her:* But most of the time we use the big ones.
*Me:* Yeah. You just sound like you're getting on her.
*Her:* Well I have a headache! I already told you that!

I don't know how to respond to that without starting a fight in front of the kids.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> You're the adult, engage her. She shouldn't have to come crawling to your for attention and love. Just give it to her. Let her know that she matters and that she can talk to you when she's hurt, upset, or bothered by anything. Being the step-parent, it's crucial that you make sure she's treated just like your child. Ever consider that she may not feel that you love her since you don't show her the same affection you do your own son? Approach her, take her out for an ice cream and talk... just the two of you. She's a child... she wants love, affection, and good attention from you. That's what any child wants more than anything... to feel loved and adored by family... to have laughter, love, and joy. It is your responsibility to make sure she's getting that by giving her love, support, and someone to talk to so she doesn't have to lash out. She understands feelings. Just talk to her. Don't make her feel like she's a bad kid. Make sense?


Yeah, I do need to do that more. The problem is that it's not natural for me to. I wouldn't do it with him except he throws it on me and I can't help but get in a playful mood back. He knows exactly how to get me out of my isolation. I'm not giving a reason why I shouldn't try. Just explaining why it only happens how it does currently. I'll try to give her more attention and do more things one-on-one with her. Maybe that's all she needs.


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## reletative

Elaminopy said:


> Yeah, I do need to do that more. The problem is that it's not natural for me to. I wouldn't do it with him except he throws it on me and I can't help but get in a playful mood back. He knows exactly how to get me out of my isolation. I'm not giving a reason why I shouldn't try. Just explaining why it only happens how it does currently. I'll try to give her more attention and do more things one-on-one with her. Maybe that's all she needs.


you don't have to play with her the exact same way, it's more about making sure she has equal attention. she may be wanting something as simple as sitting on the couch with your arm around her, or inviting her to read her book while sitting next to you. it sounds like she's a little quieter than her brother, so she may enjoy just being invited to be physically close to you or participating in something with you.


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## Elaminopy

Khys said:


> you don't have to play with her the exact same way, it's more about making sure she has equal attention. she may be wanting something as simple as sitting on the couch with your arm around her, or inviting her to read her book while sitting next to you. it sounds like she's a little quieter than her brother, so she may enjoy just being invited to be physically close to you or participating in something with you.


Yeah. I help her with her homework often. Mainly because her mom gets too frustrated with her not "getting" it. It's because she can't pick up on what her daughter isn't understanding and therefore doesn't know how to explain it right. Whenever I'm sitting and she comes up to me to sit on my lap or whatever, I'm more than happy to let her. So I do spend some time with her, but doing special things for her would certainly go a long way, I'm sure. Those are some excellent ideas.

Even though my wife doesn't like MBTI, once when she was willing to talk about it with me, we sat down and determined that she was most likely an ENxP.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> Yeah. I help her with her homework often. Mainly because her mom gets too frustrated with her not "getting" it. It's because she can't pick up on what her daughter isn't understanding and therefore doesn't know how to explain it right. Whenever I'm sitting and she comes up to me to sit on my lap or whatever, I'm more than happy to let her. So I do spend some times with her, but doing special things for her would certainly go a long way, I'm sure. Those are some excellent ideas.


I'm going to touch on some other territory here... bear with me, please. 

Have you actually dicussed with your wife how you want to raise the children? Children need consistency and stability. I work with children, and believe you me, they can sense friction between two adults if it's there. If one adult disagrees with another, children pay close attention and often get confused by the situation. When the parents are on the same page, though, the child can also sense that, and it provides the child with that sense of stability and consistency. 

It sounds like your daughter may actually be feeding off of her mother's negative energy. For instance, mom gets frustrated because she can't explain the homework in a way that her child can grasp it. Her daughter is likely to take it as, "Mommy gets mad at me because I'm not good at homework." Mom probably doesn't even realize that her daughter could develop a complex because of such behaviors. It is of utmost importance that you and your wife have these conversations. I know you both want what's best for the kid, but you two have got to be on the same page or else there might be some serious trouble down the road.


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## reletative

I couldn't agree more with @Ace Face. 

I know divorce can be really hard, but it sounds like your wife is letting some of the stress and anxiety of the situation bleed into her relationship with her daughter. Kids need reassurance when their world changes. I do think if your wife works on giving her daughter consistent encouraging words, positive tone of voice, and lots of physical affection, you'll see an improvement.


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## sanari

Elaminopy said:


> I've noticed that she's pretty hesitant. My son will run over to me with a huge smile on his face and climb on me. I'll tickle him and try to push him away because I'm watching something. He'll laugh and keep coming back and I'll keep doing it back, enjoying it as well. She'll stand nearby and watch and say "Can you do that to me, too?"


Wow. It's amazing that you even participate in the PerC forums. I was like that little girl - in that I would not initiate or ask for things. I wanted - but you wouldn't find me as outgoing as that little boy.

I feel for her here, because she is a completely different personality type from you - and you - as the knowledgeable adult - are not reaching out to her and making the effort.

Because you know and participate here on PerC - that makes you responsible for reaching out to her. You should understand that different personality types want and need love in different manners.

I'm not trying to berate you - but I can TOTALLY understand this little girl's words. You are the leader - you are the parent. She wants something from you, but can't verbalize it.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> I'm going to touch on some other territory here... bear with me, please.
> 
> Have you actually dicussed with your wife how you want to raise the children? Children need consistency and stability. I work with children, and believe you me, they can sense friction between two adults if it's there. If one adult disagrees with another, children pay close attention and often get confused by the situation. When the parents are on the same page, though, the child can also sense that, and it provides the child with that sense of stability and consistency.
> 
> It sounds like your daughter may actually be feeding off of her mother's negative energy. For instance, mom gets frustrated because she can't explain the homework in a way that her child can grasp it. Her daughter is likely to take it as, "Mommy gets mad at me because I'm not good at homework." Mom probably doesn't even realize that her daughter could develop a complex because of such behaviors. It is of utmost importance that you and your wife have these conversations. I know you both want what's best for the kid, but you two have got to be on the same page or else there might be some serious trouble down the road.


Yeah, we usually agree on parenting when we talk. It still happens this way. I think she's realizing her best bet is to let me take over during these times so she can cool down. It's a learning process for her. Her daughter is really bright and is in the top of her class. She can read pretty quickly and at the end of her kindergarten year was rated at having a high 1st grade reading level. So it's not because she's not good at homework. I think it's a communication issue between an NP and an SJ. Sometimes I want to tell my wife, "Chill, stop being such an SJ. I wouldn't want to be your kid right now, either."


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## yesiknowbut

I feel sorry for that child, and I respect you for taking the trouble to try to sort out your issues with your step-daughter. I hope you can all work it out.


She needs to feel loved, and to feel that she belongs. Her mother is the one she really needs it from the most, but it seems that Mom still has a lot of baggage from her divorce? Still she needs to get over that: she will get over the divorce, her child is potentially going to be scarred.

Lots of cuddles and interest, lots of non-judgmental behaviour required I think. Time and attention.


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## Ace Face

alfreda said:


> I feel sorry for that child, and I respect you for taking the trouble to try to sort out your issues with your step-daughter. I hope you can all work it out.
> 
> 
> She needs to feel loved, and to feel that she belongs.* Her mother is the one she really needs it from the most, but it seems that Mom still has a lot of baggage from her divorce?* Still she needs to get over that: she will get over the divorce, her child is potentially going to be scarred.
> 
> Lots of cuddles and interest, lots of non-judgmental behaviour required I think. Time and attention.


I agree with this. Mom needs to step up as well in the love and affection department. She needs quality time with both of her parents in this household.


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## reletative

hugs from mom + hugs from mom + more hugs from mom 

it's ok as a parent to get frustrated....we're not perfect. what matters isn't that you got frustrated in that moment, it's what did you do for the last 12 hours to communicate that you love and accept them no matter what


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## Elaminopy

sanari said:


> Wow. It's amazing that you even participate in the PerC forums. I was like that little girl - in that I would not initiate or ask for things. I wanted - but you wouldn't find me as outgoing as that little boy.
> 
> I feel for her here, because she is a completely different personality type from you - and you - as the knowledgeable adult - are not reaching out to her and making the effort.
> 
> Because you know and participate here on PerC - that makes you responsible for reaching out to her. You should understand that different personality types want and need love in different manners.
> 
> I'm not trying to berate you - but I can TOTALLY understand this little girl's words. You are the leader - you are the parent. She wants something from you, but can't verbalize it.


I do understand her. But it will like when I'm changing his diaper. He'll start messing with me and I'll end up playing along and it will be a fight over if I can get his pants on with him trying his hardest to keep me from putting them on. And she'll say it then. How can I do that to her? I wasn't even going to play with him. I was going to change his diaper and then go do something else. A lot of times I use her hesitance as an excuse not to stop what I'm doing, and that's not cool. It's harder to do it with him because he takes my attention.

But I agree that I should change it around and do something else with her in response.


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## Elaminopy

alfreda said:


> Her mother is the one she really needs it from the most, but it seems that Mom still has a lot of baggage from her divorce?


She's admitted more than once that she sees lots of her ex in her daughter's facial expressions and mannerisms and try as she might, it's hard for her to not let it affect her attitude toward her. Her ex was also a habitual liar, according to my wife, and would lie about everything. She's pretty sure he's an ENTP and always says he should have been a lawyer. She thinks her daughter is getting the lying from him.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> She's admitted more than once that she sees lots of her ex in her daughter's facial expressions and mannerisms and try as she might, it's hard for her to not let it affect her attitude toward her. Her ex was also a habitual liar, according to my wife, and would lie about everything. She's pretty sure he's an ENTP and always says he should have been a lawyer. She thinks her daughter is getting the lying from him.


Newsflash for your wife... kids lie xD It happens. What shouldn't happen, though, is for your wife to automatically assume every word out of her kid's mouth is a lie. That's not okay. She should never assume such a thing, and should investigate before staking such claims.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> Newsflash for your wife... kids lie xD It happens.


lol! I know. But there's something wrong if the kid lies! It means they don't respect you!



Code:


If lies==yes
then set Respect=no
else set Respect=yes

It's the exact same thing I get from my ESTJ co-worker.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> lol! I know. But there's something wrong if the kid lies! It means they don't respect you!
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> If lies==yes
> then set Respect=no
> else set Respect=yes
> 
> It's the exact same thing I get from my ESTJ co-worker.


It doesn't mean that they don't respect you. It means that they don't want to get caught, lol. Who do you know, child or adult, that likes being held accountable for their unfavorable actions? Not many I would guess


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> What shouldn't happen, though, is for your wife to automatically assume every word out of her kid's mouth is a lie. That's not okay. She should never assume such a thing, and should investigate before staking such claims.


I agree. I came home from work last night to my wife sternly scolding her. I listened to what was going on. Apparently our son was in trouble for throwing their toy microwave across the living room and our daughter was in trouble for telling him to, peeing her pants, _and_ lying about both. I don't know what happened to our son, but our daughter went to bed without dinner. This was my wife's first time resorting to that. She then proceeded to unload on me about how our daughter's being and what is wrong with her. I was content to listen to her. When she stopped and seemed to calm down, I asked her if that was everything she had done. She got snappy with me and said "Isn't that enough!?"

Me: I'm just wanting to get the whole picture.
Her: You criticize everything I do.
Me: I just asked a simple question. Nothing more. I'm sorry, it's probably not the right time since you're still upset.

Later, my wife asked me to wake her up to use the bathroom. I felt her bed and her pajamas to see if they were wet and woke her up. They didn't feel wet to me. Her mom was in the bathroom and I heard her say "How can you just stand there and blatantly lie to my face? Do you think I'm stupid? That I can't find out? Why are you doing this?" I tried to intervene without the girl seeing us disagreeing and explained that she's half asleep and probably couldn't feel if she was wet or not. "Her butt's soaking wet! So is the bed! She's just lying more!" I explained that I had felt the bed and her clothes and they didn't feel wet to me, probably because they were warm and her pajamas had that wool feel to them. She then said I didn't check very well. I checked the whole area she was laying. I couldn't feel it, for whatever reason, so it's reasonable to assume that she probably couldn't, either.

Her: But she lies all the time!
Me: It doesn't mean she lied this time.
Her: Yes it does!
Me: No. It doesn't mean she knew this time.
Her: Whatever, I don't want to argue with you, too.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> I agree. I came home from work last night to my wife sternly scolding her. I listened to what was going on. Apparently our son was in trouble for throwing their toy microwave across the living room and our daughter was in trouble for telling him to, peeing her pants, _and_ lying about both. I don't know what happened to our son, but our daughter went to bed without dinner. This was my wife's first time resorting to that. She then proceeded to unload on me about how she's being and what is wrong with her. I was content to listen to her. When she stopped and seemed to calm down, I asked her if that was everything she had done. She got snappy with me and said "Isn't that enough!?"
> 
> Me: I'm just wanting to get the whole picture.
> Her: You criticize everything I do.
> Me: I just asked a simple question. Nothing more. I'm sorry, it's probably not the right time since you're still upset.
> 
> Later, my wife asked me to wake her up to use the bathroom. I felt her bed and her pajamas to see if they were wet and woke her up. They didn't feel wet to me. Her mom was in the bathroom and I heard her say "How can you just stand there and blatantly lie to my face? Do you think I'm stupid? That I can't find out? Why are you doing this?" I tried to intervene without the girl seeing us disagreeing and explained that she's half asleep and probably couldn't feel if she was wet or not. "Her butt's soaking wet! So is the bed! She's just lying more!" I explained that I had felt the bed and her clothes and they didn't feel wet to me, probably because they were warm and her pajamas had that wool feel to them. She then said I didn't check very well. I checked the whole area she was laying. I couldn't feel it, for whatever reason, so it's reasonable to assume that she probably couldn't, either.
> 
> Her: But she lies all the time!
> Me: It doesn't mean she lied this time.
> Her: Yes it does!
> Me: No. It doesn't mean she knew this time.
> Her: Whatever, I don't want to argue with you, too.


I'm quite appauled. My jaw is open. One should never take away food from a kid as a form of punishment... as if the child were a dog. That is shameful. There are other things she could effectively take away from like t.v. time... but dinner? That's not healthy, and it's certainly not teaching the kid anything other than she might not get fed when mommy gets mad at her. As far as accusing the kid of constantly lying... all kids are going to lie, but to enforce negative feelings and make the child feel like a bad kid instead of explaining why it's not okay to lie is not okay. Not to sound rude, but perhaps your wife should consider therapy.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> I'm quite appauled. My jaw is open. One should never take away food from a kid as a form of punishment... as if the child were a dog. That is shameful. There are other things she could affectively take away from like t.v. time... but dinner? That's not healthy, and it's certainly not teaching the kid anything other than she might not get fed when mommy gets mad at her. As far as accusing the kid of constantly lying... all kids are going to lie, but to enforce negative feelings and make the child feel like a bad kid instead of explaining why it's not okay to lie is not okay. Not to sound rude, but perhaps your wife should consider therapy.


I think there are other issues, like diabetes and high blood sugar, other physical problems, most likely having depression, and the divorce thing. It really bugs her that she can't wait for the weekend to go to her dad's house. She's never put them to bed without dinner and has in the past said she doesn't agree with that type of punishment. She cried after doing so, worrying that her daughter is going to end up hating her and cried some more today.

What's really worrying me, though, is her talk of having her live with her dad because she'll be happier over there. She worries that her daughter will resent her like my wife resented her mom, and she worries she's starting to resent her daughter as well.

Maybe the spending more time and special time at that will go a long way.


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> I think there are other issues, like diabetes and high blood sugar, other physical problems, most likely having depression, and the divorce thing. It really bugs her that she can't wait for the weekend to go to her dad's house.


Again, not to sound rude, but has she ever been assessed by a therapist? Yes, blood sugar and other problems can have an effect on her behaviors to some degree, but who's to say that she may not need more help than we might want to think? She could have MDD, bipolar disorder, or an anxiety disorder that she's not aware of, and I honestly believe it would be in her best interest to go talk to somebody about these things.


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## Elaminopy

Ace Face said:


> Again, not to sound rude, but has she ever been assessed by a therapist? Yes, blood sugar and other problems can have an effect on her behaviors to some degree, but who's to say that she may not need more help than we might want to think? She could have MDD, bipolar disorder, or an anxiety disorder that she's not aware of, and I honestly believe it would be in her best interest to go talk to somebody about these things.


I agree here, too. She's talked to her general doctor about it. I insisted on attending the first few visits to him because I wasn't convinced she would tell him thing. I had to bring up the depression thing. On the next visit he said he doesn't think she has anything a change of routine can't fix. Medicine wasn't needed. She also later admitted to me to giving false answers because she thought she could get over it on her own. She hasn't been back to see him since. The doctor also didn't seem to put much work into reading the real answers, either.


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## reletative

there is definitely no shame or failure in needing medication. depression is a disease, just like diabetes or hypothyroidism. 

it sounds like your wife puts a LOT of pressure on herself. i really think talking to a counselor would help her. i see a counselor and it's helped soooo much.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

I just want to say a little something. I lost my father when I was aged 7 (he died). My mother re-married and I did not respect my step dad at all. As I read all that you have written it brings a tear to my eye: you show such love and caring and responsibility. My guess is that _*the girl likes you*_. Why else would she ask `can you play with me like that` ? There is no way that I would want anything to do with my stepfather (it wasn`t his fault but he had no idea at all about children and was a control freak). She is reaching out to you and I would bet a lot of money on the fact that no child would do that unless s/he had a lot of time for you.
The effort you are making here to understand id beautiful. If I take myself back to how astute I was at aged 8 and how much I picked up about what was going on around me (but nobody knew) then I can guarantee you that if I was her and picked up your vibe and witnessed you defending me against my mother I would be desparate for you to hug me and let me feel safe.

What I`m trying to say is, it is all there, she cares for you. Your son rushes to you so you can respond -it isn`t normal for you so there is a wonderful irony here for you, emotionally she wants from you what doesn`t come naturally and she can`t initiate it because she isn`t sure. Chase her, get her to play hide and seek. Make up games with her. It is an absolute gem a give away - nothing could be more reassuring to you than for an 8 year old child, having gone through a divorce, you coming into her life - and not rejecting you but reaching out to you. I reckon you give off a good vibe


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## Ace Face

Elaminopy said:


> I agree here, too. She's talked to her general doctor about it. I insisted on attending the first few visits to him because I wasn't convinced she would tell him thing. I had to bring up the depression thing. On the next visit he said he doesn't think she has anything a change of routine can't fix. Medicine wasn't needed. She also later admitted to me to giving false answers because she thought she could get over it on her own. She hasn't been back to see him since. The doctor also didn't seem to put much work into reading the real answers, either.


She's in denial. Assure her that there is no shame in it. I do think it would be wise for you to attend the first few visits in order to ensure that she's not presenting herself in a false light. It's funny to me that she would repremand her daughter for lying when she herself hasn't been honest with the doctor or even herself for that matter.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

After my father died my mother had 2 nervous breakdowns. At the age of 8 I had to look after her! So I lost my dad AND I lost my mum (emotionally). Maybe the child is doing more than just metaphorically pissing in her pants. It is like you are all she has that she considers stable. It is a lot of pressure on you this situation and you have my respect. 
How long have you been married? Is your wife`s attitude/behaviour close to getting to you wondering if you have made a bit of a mistake ... sorry to be blunt ... don`t expect you to answer .. just voicing my thoughts ...


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## eunoia

I agree with all the above advice. Make sure to spend time with her one on one. Express your interest, affection, and encouragement when she's communicating the way she likes to (with stories and such). Play with her the way she likes to play and show enjoyment. Your wife especially needs to do the same, because she probably feels most of the negative energy from her. As others have said, when talking to her, talk calmly and encourage honesty. Express that you would be so much happier with the truth, and when she tells the truth, make the punishment not as severe while also expressing happiness that she told the truth. First step is making her feeling comfortable telling the truth. 

Some more advice...you could contact the school counselor so your daughter has a neutral person to talk to and perhaps you could get more understanding that way.

If she doesn't stop having accidents with the added affection, you could start asking her to use the bathroom every 30min-an hour. I'm not sure how often she does it, so whatever is necessary. Explain to her that if she can't feel it, perhaps she needs to go more often just in case to prevent accidents. Give her reminders at first every *whatever amount of time* and tell her that she needs to start reminding herself. Talk to her teacher about this as well.


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## Elaminopy

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> After my father died my mother had 2 nervous breakdowns. At the age of 8 I had to look after her! So I lost my dad AND I lost my mum (emotionally). Maybe the child is doing more than just metaphorically pissing in her pants. It is like you are all she has that she considers stable. It is a lot of pressure on you this situation and you have my respect.
> How long have you been married? Is your wife`s attitude/behaviour close to getting to you wondering if you have made a bit of a mistake ... sorry to be blunt ... don`t expect you to answer .. just voicing my thoughts ...


We've been married since August this year, but have been living together since November 2007. Her daughter was a month away from 3 when she moved in with me. The divorce wasn't finalized until a year later. What you said about your father dying reminded me of my wife. Her mom died when she was 12. She first met her dad when she was 14. Only child and raised primarily by her grandparents. Her daughter was born 3 months early at 1 pound, 10 ounces. My wife couldn't hold or touch her very well. She was very afraid of hurting her and as a result, doesn't feel as close of a bond with her as she does our son. And it makes her feel like a bad mother.

Anyway, last night I talked to my wife about giving her more attention and giving her special time. She nodded. She's still pretty distraught over the whole thing. I went in the kids' room and she was building a house for me out of legos. I said it looked more like a castle. Then we played on the bed and she wanted to be sneaky like I am. See, I often hide somewhere and when they look in the room I'm in but don't find me and go out, I go hide somewhere else. Well, she tries to do the same, so I pretended I not know where she was and tried to distract my son from pointing out to me where she was and gave her the chance of hiding somewhere else. I let it go on a while and then when I finally found her, she excitedly told me all about where she hid and how she changed hiding spots and how sneaky and stealthy she is.

We had to take our big grocery shopping trip, so we were going to eat out. I asked our daughter where she wanted to go and she said Sheri's. I explained that mom doesn't like Sheri's because they had bad service. She said, "Well they might not this time." It sounded good to me, too, so we went there and she got a milkshake. My wife gets these weird hangups about things like she told her to drink the shake and not just eat all the whipped cream on top. Why? Why does it matter how she eats or drinks it? It's hers to enjoy. I said "Meh, just let her eat it. There's no point in having whipped cream otherwise." She said "okay fine."

She didn't pee her pants since I got home. She did at school, but my wife didn't get her in trouble for it. When she tells the truth, she doesn't get in trouble. It's only when she lies.


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## Super Awesome

The reality is that your whole family needs some professional help. We can all stab blindly in the dark here without ever hitting upon what's really going on. A couple of comments, though:

1. Kids sometime lie because they're scared of something. 
2. What's going on that you can't see? 

Run, don't walk, to a professional therapist. I wish you all tons of luck - this can't be easy, for any of you.


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## yesiknowbut

I'd guess also that she lies because she hates being told off. I also think that your wife needs some help with her issues with her own parenting and her divorce. Of course her daughter looks a bit like the father: but it doesn't mean she is. In the meantime her behavioural problems are a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My ENFJ son only hides things from his father if he thinks he will be found out. It really upsets him to be shouted at. Of course he would always get found out, and shouted at for the thing he hid, and for lying about it. We had some big problems last year and I nearly left: since I made it clear that my husband's behaviour towards his son was destroying our marriage he has cleaned up his act massively, and our son doesn't get shouted at, and doesn't need to lie to his Dad any more. We are all happier.

Your wife is the adult: she needs to make a move first. If she shows her daughter love and affection, then over time the bedwetting will stop. Likelihood is that her wanting to be with her father will stop, too. From what you say, at the moment it isn't all that surprising that this is what she wants.

A final word about ENTPs: we can be lovely people, really, and we aren't always deceitful and dishonest.... 
Total respect to you for being a loving parent to your step-daughter. At the moment you are the one parent she can rely on.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

Elaminopy said:


> We've been married since August this year, but have been living together since November 2007. Her daughter was a month away from 3 when she moved in with me. The divorce wasn't finalized until a year later. What you said about your father dying reminded me of my wife. Her mom died when she was 12. She first met her dad when she was 14. Only child and raised primarily by her grandparents. Her daughter was born 3 months early at 1 pound, 10 ounces. My wife couldn't hold or touch her very well. She was very afraid of hurting her and as a result, doesn't feel as close of a bond with her as she does our son. And it makes her feel like a bad mother.
> 
> Anyway, last night I talked to my wife about giving her more attention and giving her special time. She nodded. She's still pretty distraught over the whole thing. I went in the kids' room and she was building a house for me out of legos. I said it looked more like a castle. Then we played on the bed and she wanted to be sneaky like I am. See, I often hide somewhere and when they look in the room I'm in but don't find me and go out, I go hide somewhere else. Well, she tries to do the same, so I pretended I not know where she was and tried to distract my son from pointing out to me where she was and gave her the chance of hiding somewhere else. I let it go on a while and then when I finally found her, she excitedly told me all about where she hid and how she changed hiding spots and how sneaky and stealthy she is.
> 
> We had to take our big grocery shopping trip, so we were going to eat out. I asked our daughter where she wanted to go and she said Sheri's. I explained that mom doesn't like Sheri's because they had bad service. She said, "Well they might not this time." It sounded good to me, too, so we went there and she got a milkshake. My wife gets these weird hangups about things like she told her to drink the shake and not just eat all the whipped cream on top. Why? Why does it matter how she eats or drinks it? It's hers to enjoy. I said "Meh, just let her eat it. There's no point in having whipped cream otherwise." She said "okay fine."
> 
> She didn't pee her pants since I got home. She did at school, but my wife didn't get her in trouble for it. When she tells the truth, she doesn't get in trouble. It's only when she lies.


I am so pleased to hear about your play with your daughter - I think it proves a few points about how much she loves you and how much she looks to you at the moment for security and assurance. I just want to say again how much I respect you.

It is making more sense about your wife now after what you explained - she too will be feeling insecure and also uncertain about how best to parent ... she was never given a mothers love. My guess is her being a mother triggers much pain from her childhood. Look there is a marvellous book that I would suggest your wife reads. It discusses the aftermath in a personality from different types of parenting. It doesn`t look to blame, just to explain. It means that it will help your wife get a good insight into what she missed out on and how that has affected her. I promise you this book is a gem: `Toxic Parents` Overcoming their hurtful legacy and reclaiming your life - Dr Susan Forward.

I work a lot with individuals on personal growth and we all have painful legacies from our childhood - some obviously more painful than other. Also many of the hurts (most in fact) were not meant, just parents not focusing on developing the child but more on making them `good, disciplined toe the line adults`. However as we know many adults do not have a good insight on themselves let alone others - so they screw up in various ways as parents. I think that sorts itself out because through it all the child knows the parents love them ... but for a good percentage the child gets mixed messages about that and some (such as your wife was) deserted.

It is thrilling to see individuals suddenly understand consciously what has happened to them and the effect it has had. It frees them. I think this book will help free your wife.


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## Vexilla Regis

Poor little girl...

She's probably lying because she is ashamed or scared. :/


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## sanari

Elaminopy said:


> We've been married since August this year, but have been living together since November 2007. Her daughter was a month away from 3 when she moved in with me. The divorce wasn't finalized until a year later. What you said about your father dying reminded me of my wife. Her mom died when she was 12. She first met her dad when she was 14. Only child and raised primarily by her grandparents. Her daughter was born 3 months early at 1 pound, 10 ounces. My wife couldn't hold or touch her very well. She was very afraid of hurting her and as a result, doesn't feel as close of a bond with her as she does our son. And it makes her feel like a bad mother.
> 
> Anyway, last night I talked to my wife about giving her more attention and giving her special time. She nodded. She's still pretty distraught over the whole thing. I went in the kids' room and she was building a house for me out of legos. I said it looked more like a castle. Then we played on the bed and she wanted to be sneaky like I am. See, I often hide somewhere and when they look in the room I'm in but don't find me and go out, I go hide somewhere else. Well, she tries to do the same, so I pretended I not know where she was and tried to distract my son from pointing out to me where she was and gave her the chance of hiding somewhere else. I let it go on a while and then when I finally found her, she excitedly told me all about where she hid and how she changed hiding spots and how sneaky and stealthy she is.
> 
> We had to take our big grocery shopping trip, so we were going to eat out. I asked our daughter where she wanted to go and she said Sheri's. I explained that mom doesn't like Sheri's because they had bad service. She said, "Well they might not this time." It sounded good to me, too, so we went there and she got a milkshake. My wife gets these weird hangups about things like she told her to drink the shake and not just eat all the whipped cream on top. Why? Why does it matter how she eats or drinks it? It's hers to enjoy. I said "Meh, just let her eat it. There's no point in having whipped cream otherwise." She said "okay fine."
> 
> She didn't pee her pants since I got home. She did at school, but my wife didn't get her in trouble for it. When she tells the truth, she doesn't get in trouble. It's only when she lies.


You are awesome and handling the situation like an awesome dad.  Lead on!


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## Elaminopy

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Look there is a marvellous book that I would suggest your wife reads. It discusses the aftermath in a personality from different types of parenting. It doesn`t look to blame, just to explain. It means that it will help your wife get a good insight into what she missed out on and how that has affected her. I promise you this book is a gem: `Toxic Parents` Overcoming their hurtful legacy and reclaiming your life - Dr Susan Forward.


Thanks. I'll look to getting it, but she's not one to read "advice" books. I have "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus", and "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands/Marriage" by Laura Schlesinger. My wife has expressed no desire to read these and even seems to resent me suggesting it. If I come to her with this book, she'll most likely take it as me saying that she is the problem and I'm trying to fix her. And it will most likely cause her to mistrust me because she'll wonder what went through my head and who I talked to for it to get to the point of finding the book.



> I work a lot with individuals on personal growth and we all have painful legacies from our childhood - some obviously more painful than other. Also many of the hurts (most in fact) were not meant, just parents not focusing on developing the child but more on making them `good, disciplined toe the line adults`. However as we know many adults do not have a good insight on themselves let alone others - so they screw up in various ways as parents. I think that sorts itself out because through it all the child knows the parents love them ... but for a good percentage the child gets mixed messages about that and some (such as your wife was) deserted.


That reminds me of something. It's irrelevant to this issue, but I've donated twice and eventually volunteered at Womenspace for a time, fixing their computers.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

See the problem ... eek wonder if you`d get away with saying you found it there and got it for you to read for your daughter to see if you could pick up any tips ... It may then work out that your wife flicks through it and then could well get into it. One of the beauties of the book is that it isn`t an advise book - it gives good info. There may even be a 2nd hand copy on Amazon so it doesn`t look new. Or maybe you could even say you made enquiries generally to see if your daughters problem may have anything to do with you being a step - dad. (That could serve to take any fear away from your wife because it sure isn`t a fear you need to have - if anyone can sort this out you can I reckon)


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## Elaminopy

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> See the problem ... eek wonder if you`d get away with saying you found it there and got it for you to read for your daughter to see if you could pick up any tips ... It may then work out that your wife flicks through it and then could well get into it. One of the beauties of the book is that it isn`t an advise book - it gives good info. There may even be a 2nd hand copy on Amazon so it doesn`t look new. Or maybe you could even say you made enquiries generally to see if your daughters problem may have anything to do with you being a step - dad. (That could serve to take any fear away from your wife because it sure isn`t a fear you need to have - if anyone can sort this out you can I reckon)


That's just the kind of sneaky thing I'd think of. Sounds good. I guess I was hoping for someone to suggest something to attack the root cause of her not wanting to read these things before coming up with this type of plan. Always wishful thinking.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

Well I think that`s because there isn`t any way to - not coming from you it seems .. she is primed to feel you are seeing her as not good enough - which is really of course to do with her own insecurity and self doubt (ie she doesn`t think she is good enough). So the next best thing is for her to discover some good relevant book by `co-incidence`


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## RRRoooaaaRRR

She has created a Map of reality that is loaded with defense mechanisms - most of which were relevant and needed when she developed them as a child to survive. The thing is they then get imbedded in our psyche and it takes an insight to see that and from there the road to freedom opens.


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## MuChApArAdOx

My nephew peed his pants and bed until he 14. He came from a stable home, stable family dynamics. The doctor told his parents there was a problem with what he called his " tickler" ....apparently its something that is triggered when we pee, and his wasn't working properly. I didn't read the thread or all of your intro. Please don't blame her or make her feel bad about it. It could be something out of her control. I would get a second and third opinion from a Dr. if i was the parent. He( my nephew) was trained at age 2 also, this only started happening when he was 5. Underdeveloped tickler was what they called it. When the tickler would give signs he needed to pee, it was too late. Once it fully developed at age 15, it never happened again.

EDIT. It could be medical, or something mental or emotional causing his stress. Change in surroundings can make kids change their behavior also. Support her, she's 7, she's still very much a little girl in my opinion.


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## Lackjester

I commend you for what you've done so far for your family. 

I advise against trying to manipulate your wife into reading that book... Even if you succeed, I guarantee that if she reads the title and takes it personally, it will make things much worse than they currently are; she has already stated that she feels like you criticize her and I'm convinced that it would strain your relationship even more. You see, trust and love are the pillars of recovery from excessive stress, lose one and it gets exponentially harder, lose the capacity for both and it's game-over. Don't play with fire; don't gamble with her trust or her love. 

Regardless, you can still read the book on your own. In fact, here's another book you might want to look into: Difficult Conversations How to Discuss what Matters Most - Douglas Stone.pdf
I believe it could help you a lot throughout this whole ordeal - and perhaps even throughout your life.

With that being said, your primary focus should be on reinstating an atmosphere of love, trust and respect in the household. It seems like you've been doing this correctly these last few days, so keep at it. Keep communicating with your family, verbally and non-verbally, that you love them. It seems like things are looking up for you and your children but what about your wife? 

Your secondary focus should be to help her deal with what she's going through. As someone else mentioned earlier, it seems like she's depressed and isn't functioning to her full cognitive and emotional potential. Perhaps I'm simply stating the obvious but although she's far from handling things correctly right now, it's not her fault and shouldn't be held against her. Make sure you don't. It's time for the both of you to talk with each-other and figure out, as a couple, what the best way to help her feel better might be. Reassure her that she has what it takes in her to take care of her daughter because she does. 

In the end, you know your family much better than all of us ever could. Listen to your intuition and empathy, if something anyone suggested feels wrong to you, don't try it. My guess is that the peeing and lying will gradually disappear as your daughter starts feeling safer and genuinely loved.

Best of luck to you and your family. Keep up the good work, I'm sure things'll work out in the end.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

I read a article on Dr Phil website the other day listing things to look out for when a child is being sexually abused and wetting themselves is one of them... obviously its not the only possible reason but i would definitely look into it, at least ask questions. Another thing is maybe shes not dealing with the divorce well emotionally. Bedwetting alot of times can be caused by the childs bladder not being big enough for them to sleep through the night, but if shes doing it during the day it sounds like a cry for help... whether its attention or something more serious. Perhaps a psychiatrist could help. Whatever you do dont blame her and humiliate her in public, thats just going to make things worse.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

Elaminopy said:


> @Khys, exactly. This is how I feel as well. I can tell my wife that and she may even agree whole-heartedly, but her putting it into practice is another thing altogether. I've noticed that most of our arguments start with her getting upset at me for some reason, me responding to her upset and trying to figure out what's wrong, just to learn that she was in a bad mood. Seriously, this is an exact exchange we had lately:
> 
> *Her:* (to her daughter) We use the big forks. You and your brother use the little ones. Other than that, you did a good job setting the table.
> *Daughter:* Sorry.
> *Her:* No, it's okay. You did good. We just use the big forks.
> *Me:* Well, we use the small forks _sometimes_ depending on the food.
> *Her:* But most of the time we use the big ones.
> *Me:* Yeah. You just sound like you're getting on her.
> *Her:* Well I have a headache! I already told you that!
> 
> I don't know how to respond to that without starting a fight in front of the kids.


you should have taken your "we use little forks sometimes" comment to your wife away from the children... what your wife heard was that you were complicating the situation and undermining her in front of the children. It sounds like from this and other thread your wife is exhausted and upset and just isnt handling it well. I would recommend holding your tongue in situations where your comment isnt needed, if you are just finding fault or correcting that can be seen as condescending... so your wife is questioning her methods (because her daughters problems... "maybe im not so great at being a mom") and you picking at her unintentionally by pointing out flaws in her statements can lead her to believe that you are also questioning her as a parent.


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## Mendi the ISFJ

i found this site Is your child wetting their pants still? Part 1: Causes of enuresis - Phoenix parenting advice | Examiner.com
it says "Your pediatrician can rule out problems such as a urinary tract infection, a small bladder, stress incontinence, or other medical causes. If the cause is medical, the doctor will be able to begin treatment and the problem should subside. However, if the doctor finds no medical reason the root of the problem may be developmental, behavioral , or emotional."


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## Elaminopy

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> you should have taken your "we use little forks sometimes" comment to your wife away from the children... what your wife heard was that you were complicating the situation and undermining her in front of the children. It sounds like from this and other thread your wife is exhausted and upset and just isnt handling it well. I would recommend holding your tongue in situations where your comment isnt needed, if you are just finding fault or correcting that can be seen as condescending... so your wife is questioning her methods (because her daughters problems... "maybe im not so great at being a mom") and you picking at her unintentionally by pointing out flaws in her statements can lead her to believe that you are also questioning her as a parent.


I wasn't pointing out a falsity in her statement just to point it out. I was saying "That's not always the case, so don't get on your daughter for not knowing which case it was."


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## Mendi the ISFJ

Elaminopy said:


> I wasn't pointing out a falsity in her statement just to point it out. I was saying "That's not always the case, so don't get on your daughter for not knowing which case it was."


i still think that she responded the way she did because you said it in front of her daughter. It sounds to me like she was doing her best to not take her mood out on her daughter in the first place. She would want her daughter to set the table right the next time.

in my opinion she is telling her daughter shes wrong because shes a child and she is learning, but you are telling her shes wrong and that can sound condescending and confusing to the child who then may not know which of u is right about how to do it.


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## Elaminopy

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i still think that she responded the way she did because you said it in front of her daughter. It sounds to me like she was doing her best to not take her mood out on her daughter in the first place. She would want her daughter to set the table right the next time.


Yeah, I hate opposing my wife in front of them and undermining her. I try my best to leave such things for later. But we had just sat down and it would be a while until dinner was over. I try to be on my wife's side whenever I can, but sometimes she just flies off the handle and completely overreacts when the kids are just being normal kids and I feel the need to step in and say I don't think that is necessary. I understand that the other night was a pretty minor thing and it was really only her tone of voice that sounded like she was getting on her, so I could have instead just reinforced what my wife said that she did a good job, maybe even joked that she must think we are little kids to give us little forks. She would laugh at that.


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## saffron

I also want to commend you for all of your efforts here. That little girl is lucky to have you in her life. 

@Harlequin gave some really good advice. You seem like the most stable and able adult in the house right now and you're going to have to set the tone. It seems like you're up for the task though.

I honestly feel for your wife. I thank the universe every day that my kids seem to be NFs (as I am), it makes my job so much easier. I get what they need and how they need it for the most part and it's not such a stretch to deliver. But I still have my days or periods where I feel inadequate. Add a different type of kid, a divorce and a seemingly enabling dad to the mix and it would be damn hard. 

You have to find a way to balance your support here. Try acknowledging the difficulties and validating mom's feelings as much as you can while gently and persistently advocating for the mom/daughter relationship and the child's needs. I think mom needs a serious confidence boost here to get her back to her nurturing nature and belief that she can pull this off. And every child needs a centered, confident and loving mom. I really don't see how handing her over to dad would be a reasonable or healthy option for any of you at this point. There's too much at stake and too much to try before it should get to that point. 

Almost everything improves with constructive and supportive communication.


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