# ESFP in the grip? Or some other type?



## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

Hi!

I think I recently recovered from being at the grip of my inferior function. Which is kind of exciting because I had a hard time recalling what it felt like to be in the grip, until it happened again and I had the info to pay attention to what was happening in real time. 

I think my inferior is probably Ni, or possibly Si. Now I'm here hoping that someone can talk this out with me to confirm or reject this. And maybe help me see how to use this to grow instead of it holding me back.

What I experienced seems so unlike me, and yet I have experienced this same thing before.

What leads to this break down:

Being told that my way of being is not right. Let me explain. I make my very best decisions in the exact moment that I am presented with a problem. I have a hard time forecasting what will be the right decision for further down the road, because this is not the current reality. I don't know what is going to be right for my life 5 years from now. Hell, I don't even know if I will have a life 5 years from now. So why would I want to structure something that doesn't exist at this time? I make my best decisions based on current needs or desires. This is who I am, and it works for me, but I know it doesn't work for other people. I've seen other people try to control my present day freedom because it bothers them that my future is not planned. This makes me defensive, because my uncertainty should not concern them. I don't always agree with how others make decisions, but I would never try to control that, so why do others see my method and want to control it? 

Related to this, in the same way that others panic when their future is unplanned, I panic when I feel forced to deny the present in order to think about the long term. Especially when presented with an opportunity for the near future. For example, if I am offered a great deal to travel to somewhere I've never been, and it catches my interest and I can afford it, I feel that it is right for me to pursue the opportunity. My partner, instead, will say "That does sound fun. Let's sit down and make a plan, so we can work toward doing this in four years." My immediate reaction is almost always "Forget it." This immediately feels like it has turned into an obligation instead of enjoyment. The future isn't guaranteed. And I *hate* serious approaches to something that is supposed to be spontaneous and joyful. Isn't that missing the whole point? I don't even want to talk about it at all unless its actually going to happen, and happen soon. I get no thrill out of dreaming of something that will not happen. This may sound irresponsible (I've been told it is), but if you're an adaptable person (which I am!) and don't have a strict plan for how your future *must* be (which I don't!), there is no more irresponsibility in taking opportunities as they come and adjusting to where that takes you, than there is in avoiding the reality that life isn't predictable. It's not unrealistic to adapt and take life as it comes, instead of trying to control future outcomes. My partner says the way that I explain this sounds "stressful, like having no control over life". But isn't it more stressful to put your energy into controlling something that cannot be controlled? Yes, you can set goals and work toward them, but nothing is guaranteed except this very moment. 

While I always find myself flustered when I realize that others close to me take such a different approach to life and the present and future, and take offense to my personal approach, that alone isn't enough to cause a breakdown. It even gives me some pride in my differing approach. The stress from outside pressures does build up over time though, and makes me wonder at times if I'm even made up of the same stuff that these other people are.

The times during which I experience my inferior function reaction, are an accumulation of all of the above pressures, but on top of that if I'm feel physically or financially limited, or when I feel overcommitted or pressured to live a life that feels controlled and overly serious for too long. Or, when I feel isolated from others, or others aren't interested in getting out and doing things. Or when the weather is poor and I get bored. During those times, I get... weird. I feel like the boredom or isolation or feeling restricted will last forever. I have a desire to undo my long term relationships and commitments and start to blame others in my life, as though they are the ones making me feel trapped, manipulated or controlled. (Not the case, but in those moments I can make a case for it in my mind). I get frustrated that everyone else doesn't seem to care about having passions at all, and therefore they must be the reason my life is lacking the passion I need in order to thrive. (Again, not true.. I'm not saying this is an entirely rational thought!) I want a huge change and I want it immediately. Like, to abandon everyone and everything and start over somewhere else. As an adult, I now force myself not to run away. But in a way even that is restricting and feels like fighting an instinct. I do have morals though. And I don't want to hurt others to get what I want. And I don't want to hurt myself by burning all of my bridges.

By resisting my urge to break out of an imaginary cage, I get weird. I force myself to reflect upon my life and where I really want my future to go. But, this reflection causes me to become increasingly anxious. And very withdrawn and irritable because of focusing my energy inward. I lose tolerance for the world outside of my head when I'm trying to work through this and resist what feels natural. I am not good at using my energy in this way, so I find myself pursuing odd avenues to try to understand the meaning of my life. At times where I've been "in the grip", I've turned to things like hypnosis, poetry, religion (Buddhism, Paganism, Christianity, even Wicca), I get very interested in Philosophy and feel the urge to study and suck all of the knowledge I can out of books. I kind of cocoon myself in spirituality, metaphors, deep-thinking, reading. I feel very imaginative and "deep". And, in that very moment, I fail to realize that this reflection obsession is making things worse instead of better. I'm going deeper into my "dark side", instead of getting closer to my "bright side". I kind of beat myself up over never ever having pursued a straight and narrow kind of path, and start seeking out a path to follow that would encompass all of my values (I start making lists of my values and trying to fit the into some one future path. Reading the above should make you realize how unlike me it is to think and plan this way.) I start trying to read signs in order to make my decisions. Like, if a song playing matches my mood or seems to really align with some philosophy I'm attached to at that moment, I start thinking it's a sign from a greater power and I try to use that to either back up the choices I'm making or use the song as a guide. It's so ridiculous to think about those times after the fact when I'm out of it and back to living my life. But in that moment, I cannot even see anything beyond my deep and intense thoughts and feelings. Typically a family member or friend recognizes this in me and says "This isn't your thing. You need to stop thinking and start doing. Go on a vacation or something." So, I write a list of changes I could make. Then I do that. And suddenly (or slowly? I'm not sure, I can never seem to recall after the fact) one day it's like I emerge from that cocoon. I don't need the confinement of relying on religion, signs, poetry, deeper meanings anymore, and I look back and wonder how and why I was ever in the cocoon, except maybe to grow into something stronger and better. (But it certainly didn't feel stronger or better, it felt weak and so so horrible). So, I move on with my life and get back to my bright side, my optimism, my spontaneity, my trust that the unknown does not need to be known by me. But, you see, by just moving on, it doesn't help me with knowing what to do when it starts happening again.

My thinking is that this seems a lot like inferior Ni. If I understand correctly, if I am dominant Se, it would be always trying to squash inferior Ni and reject everything that it stands for. (I would define Ni as deeper implications of current happenings and future forecasting. But correct me if I'm wrong with that definition.) So, if I were always trying to squash that or reject it and run the other way to avoid its grasp.. If I were stressed, bored, tired, lacking passion, my defenses would be down and it would leak in. Which, it probably should, to create a balanced personality, but instead of leaking in in a nice, flowy and healthy manner, it bursts in in a destructive manner.

I kind of got side tracked from my purpose in writing this post, which is to understand my type so that I can prevent another spell (actually, that's the perfect word for how it feels for me to be "in the grip".. I feel like I'm under a spell!). Or, if I cannot prevent myself from falling into this state of being (or not being, doing everything except just being), how can I use these experiences to grow? My guess is that, if I am in fact a ESFP, trying to develop something like Ne would actually lead me to inferior Ni instead of helping me. How can I develop Ni into something healthy and balancing and enjoyable, instead of alternating between suppressing it and then falling under its grip?

I don't know how well this flowed and whether it is coherent. But, what do you think?


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## Insentient (Sep 22, 2016)

snapcrackle said:


> If I were stressed, bored, tired, lacking passion, my defenses would be down and it would leak in. Which, it probably should, to create a balanced personality, but instead of leaking in in a nice, flowy and healthy manner, it bursts in in a destructive manner.
> 
> How can I develop Ni into something healthy and balancing and enjoyable, instead of alternating between suppressing it and then falling under its grip?


The reason an inferior function possesses someone in the most inappropriate moments is because you learn to suppress it as you mature. Contrary to popular belief, the first time people integrate their weak functions isn't in middle age. That's when you return to seeing them as positive forces. It's actually when you were a child that your dominant function and inferior function lives in your psyche as one, united. That's why children are so prone to suggestive influences (my inferior Se manifested in my childhood as me always going after pleasurable sweets, watching cartoons and running around to wherever I thought I'd find some kind of thrill).

But of course, as you mature and as your consciousness gets stronger, the modern world needs you to stay there and for you to perform what you know best, (preferably all the time and with little pay). As this happens the most repressed functions turn hostile to you (as its way of balancing the scales, just as you describe) and attach the negative aspects of subconscious to themselves. An inferior Fi might think everybody is disrespecting them or an inferior Te might see those who have economic power as destroyers of the world and bringers of injustice.

In order to return to that initial state of balance, you should try and remember what it felt like when the inferior Ni did not cause pain but instead brought ecstasy, relief, a positive and healthy outlook on life for you. I can't give you any more specific pointers than that because that's personal for everyone. You should try to see the inferior function as a "life-giving" source instead of a "death giving" source. But not giving into it entirely is important because if that happens then you become nothing good. The real purpose of this mechanism by the ultimate marriage of two opposite functions in your psyche and balancing them is because that's the ultimate perception of reality (doesn't matter what the functions are). And that's the only way you're going to be able to not only be happy but also become a beneficial individual to your tribe (looking at it from an evolutionary perspective). This goes for everyone and that's the ultimate aim of Jungian psychology: to make you a complete and fulfilled individual; not only happy, but productive and creative towards life.

Try to surrender yourself (your ego consciousness) to your unconscious and explore your fears. They will turn friendly to you again in good time (that's been my experience). Have the courage to blunder, make mistakes, look like a fool, take risks. Yes it hurts and it kills you but it's worth it because there's nothing else to life.


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

@Insentient
that's pretty cool and interesting and i enjoyed reading all what you said, good stuff


now to chime in on some thoughts with what snapcrackle said:

@snapcrackle
wow! total ESFP dom Se aux Fi inferior Ni! hands down!

first off, Ne will always evade and puzzle you, don't worry about Ne, you're not going to understand or use Ne, it's your 8th of the 8 cog functions in your function stack, the shadow of your inferior function, it is the devilish/demonic function in your function stack. Do you even understand what Ne means? 

dom/tert loops which for ESFP would be Se/Te, those loops are broken by engaging aux function which for you is Fi.

imo the inferior grip becomes the dom/tert loop but i don't know if that is validated by anyone or just my opinion, but i think it's connected. But that's a topic i'm studying and trying to figure out if that is so. I love more info from you of what gets you out of your grip or what you think gets you out of your grip???

A grip doesn't happen until an inferior eruption becomes long term as in the person lives a lifestyle that continually stresses and frustrates and depresses them, then the inferior eruption becomes a grip. We all have inferior eruptions all the time but can snap out quickly out of it. The grip is when it's long term ongoing. Also we use our inferior function all the time. We all have to use one of each functions, a T, F, S, N. So we use our inferior all the time just not as skillfully as someone who has that function in dom or aux does. But it's all a needed part of our cognitive processing. Inferior eruption happens when the dom function gets stressed out and overwhelmed. For you dom is Se, so it happens when your Se gets stressed out and overwhelmed as in you want to be spontaneous and take off on a whim and forget about the ridiculous long drawn out planning, and your Se gets chained and handcuffed by a rigid planner so you go into inferior eruption, then if it goes on long term in the lifestyle you are living it then becomes a grip.

Engaging Aux function takes you out of the dom/tert loop, so is the grip the dom/tert loop? then engaging Fi in Fi activities would work to get you out of it and regain balance. But is it the dom/tert loop? 

My mother is an ESFP, an elderly age. Her elderly aging is very frustrating to her because she cannot up and do all her Se stuff she is used to doing on a whim, she's a bit more fragile and her memory is not as strong as it used to be (kinda like the onset of alzheimers), so that makes life even more frustrating to her at this time. So she started volunteering in an after school program with kids around aged 6-11 or so, a music program where they practice playing instruments as an orchestra kind of thing. She still plays tennis also at least once a week, she used to be a tennis champ in her days gone by, but her knee gives her alot of pain but she still plays at least once a week but with her other elder tennis friends so they are not as agile either, so they play more mellow games of tennis at this time than in their earlier years. She says they actually chat more than they play these days. So that helps her also with the Se socializing that she ever so needs for a dom Se user. And the volunteering and helping the kids, some are problematic kids from broken homes, so she gets alot of satisfaction in helping to watch over them in the volunteer music program. She doesn't actually teach music, but she's one of the assistants to helping the kids focus and not fight or wander off but to stay active in the program. So that's her way of feeling satisfaction with now being so restricted physically and mentally to up and travel on a whim or up and do anything on a whim because she just can't no more like before when she had no physical or mental limitation of aging.

So, i'm an INFP Fi dom, and even in other INFP's we can have some different values, some similar, some different. I'm not sure what your aux Fi values are but just observing my Mom i see she is engaging her aux Fi in this volunteer program and it helps to keep her balance otherwise she would be terribly depressed. So, maybe that's something you need to do if you're in a grip, go volunteer and help people.

And if you want to travel on a whim and your partner doesn't without long term plans, then take off and travel! go! just do it! just stay faithful to your partner and i'm sure it will work out fine. cheat on your partner then take the chance of losing your relationship. live your life and enjoy it, you can't expect to do everything your partner's way, you two must compromise, sometimes the partner's way, sometimes your way! can't be all just one person's way everytime! but as long as there is no cheating/adultery/affairs i'm sure everything will work out fine! No person has the right to keep another person imprisoned from enjoying life through their own cognitive processing, you are born with your function stack the way it is, you can't be another type, you can only be your type or else life would be feeeling like you're dying if you have to try to be another type, no can't do! stay true to yourself, just don't cheat on a partner! that's a no-no for all people and all types. And don't have emotional affairs either with other people, that is just as bad as cheating, you might as well leave your partner if things are that bad and disconnected between the 2 of you, and find a more fitting partner to enjoy life with. Living in misery is no good for no one.

Please tell me how you engage in Fi activities?


EDIT: Add something else:

Also, i was chiming in your seeing yourself as an ESFP, but i do have some guessing as could it be you are an ESTP and then need aux Ti to engage and regain balance. I did re-read your post and wondered are you ESFP or ESTP? Tell me why you think you are an F and not a T? Your post actually doesn't dominantly point to ESFP over ESTP or vice verse? Se dom yes, Ni inferior yes, but what is AUX and TERT? Fi-Te or Ti-Fe. I think possibly Fi-Te but i would like more info just to be sure.


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

Insentient said:


> The reason an inferior function possesses someone in the most inappropriate moments is because you learn to suppress it as you mature. Contrary to popular belief, the first time people integrate their weak functions isn't in middle age. That's when you return to seeing them as positive forces. It's actually when you were a child that your dominant function and inferior function lives in your psyche as one, united.


That actually makes a lot of sense, and is very true for me. I hadn't really thought about how this experience (of really falling prey to something inside myself during times of intense stress), is a very new thing. When I was young, I'm not sure I used Ni in a way a strong Ni type would, but I was far more playful with it. For example, I might have been fascinated by symbolism and incorporated it into my treasurehunt-like fantasies of uncovering a grand secret.. but I wouldn't dwell or take it farther than that. I have a hard time recalling my internal reflections from the past though..



Insentient said:


> In order to return to that initial state of balance, you should try and remember what it felt like when the inferior Ni did not cause pain but instead brought ecstasy, relief, a positive and healthy outlook on life for you. I can't give you any more specific pointers than that because that's personal for everyone. You should try to see the inferior function as a "life-giving" source instead of a "death giving" source. But not giving into it entirely is important because if that happens then you become nothing good. The real purpose of this mechanism by the ultimate marriage of two opposite functions in your psyche and balancing them is because that's the ultimate perception of reality (doesn't matter what the functions are). And that's the only way you're going to be able to not only be happy but also become a beneficial individual to your tribe (looking at it from an evolutionary perspective). This goes for everyone and that's the ultimate aim of Jungian psychology: to make you a complete and fulfilled individual; not only happy, but productive and creative towards life.


That gives me a lot of hope. And I love the idea of reframing inferior Ni as a life-giving source, part of the whole.



Insentient said:


> Try to surrender yourself (your ego consciousness) to your unconscious and explore your fears. They will turn friendly to you again in good time (that's been my experience). Have the courage to blunder, make mistakes, look like a fool, take risks. Yes it hurts and it kills you but it's worth it because there's nothing else to life.


Thank you for your insightful and encouraging feedback!


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> wow! total ESFP dom Se aux Fi inferior Ni! hands down!


 



mountaintop said:


> dom/tert loops which for ESFP would be Se/Te, those loops are broken by engaging aux function which for you is Fi.
> imo the inferior grip becomes the dom/tert loop but i don't know if that is validated by anyone or just my opinion, but i think it's connected. But that's a topic i'm studying and trying to figure out if that is so. I love more info from you of what gets you out of your grip or what you think gets you out of your grip???


Are you studying in school, or as a hobby/interest?

Ah, if only I knew what gets me out of it. I feel like it might be something different each time, but probably involves jolting my thoughts out of rumination and using them to accomplish something instead. I was pretty stuck for a few months last year. I tried reading, because I would then think about the topic matter instead of these deeper and complicated questions I would latch onto. But, after reading 30 books in 3 months (not an exaggeration), I realized that this was so not me. I've never been much of a reader, but I was in it too deep to notice what I was doing to myself. Ultimately, I went on a long camping trip which helped me reengage with reality in a positive and enjoyable way, and when I returned I started adding some structure: I made a bullet journal and a values list/bucketlist, pursued a new job that gave me some more independence and accessed a more driven side of myself. I don't know when exactly I came out of this spell, but one day I realized that I was back to doing and being, and had released myself from my previous state of mind. *Pats self on back*. I don't know if that helps with your interest in learning more, but I think that's kind of the process I went through.



mountaintop said:


> A grip doesn't happen until an inferior eruption becomes long term as in the person lives a lifestyle that continually stresses and frustrates and depresses them, then the inferior eruption becomes a grip. We all have inferior eruptions all the time but can snap out quickly out of it. The grip is when it's long term ongoing. Also we use our inferior function all the time. We all have to use one of each functions, a T, F, S, N. So we use our inferior all the time just not as skillfully as someone who has that function in dom or aux does. But it's all a needed part of our cognitive processing. Inferior eruption happens when the dom function gets stressed out and overwhelmed. For you dom is Se, so it happens when your Se gets stressed out and overwhelmed as in you want to be spontaneous and take off on a whim and forget about the ridiculous long drawn out planning, and your Se gets chained and handcuffed by a rigid planner so you go into inferior eruption, then if it goes on long term in the lifestyle you are living it then becomes a grip.


*Nodding YES, enthusiastically*



mountaintop said:


> Engaging Aux function takes you out of the dom/tert loop, so is the grip the dom/tert loop? then engaging Fi in Fi activities would work to get you out of it and regain balance. But is it the dom/tert loop?


Strange, I feel like I skipped the loop. Would a Se-Te loop present itself as vigorously pursuing one's goals, possibly in a domineering or reckless manner without stopping to consider whether the pursuit is good or purposeful? I'm not sure I've experienced that. Actually, if I looped at all, it seemed more Fi-Ni (would that be obsessing and ruminating over values and deeper-insight, shutting out the outerworld and feeling disconnected from reality?)


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

Shoot, half of my response got cut off. I'll try to type it out again if I have a chance later on  

I'm not positive on Fi-Te vs Ti-Fe, but lean more toward Fi-Te based on this:

_Fi - introverted Feeling
Although it’s referred to as “Feeling”, Fi is not internal emotions, but rather values that come from within. SeFi’s might experience a deep well of emotions, but this is not the root of Fi. It is a decision making-process that makes them very interested in determining their own moral code and what the SeFi’s gut instinct tells them is right, which is often based on how they would like to be treated themselves. They tend to be very considerate of others, and may take a long time to mull over their own beliefs to make sure they seem right. The values-refining process can take quite a bit of time and requires mental solitude. Fi generally puts authenticity in high esteem and is repulsed by anything that seems fabricated or shallow.

Te - extroverted Thinking
Te is the SeFi’s third function. Te is a very logic-oriented way of problem solving. It is the side of them that naturally looks to find a better solution to a problem, improve the efficiency of a process, or critique and refine what is already in place. SeFi’s are pretty balanced between this quick, decisive efficient way of making decisions and the pondering, value-driven decision making process of their Fi._


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

@snapcrackle "pop" lol  love ur name 

yeah, i thinks ur Fi Te too. i just got called to go have dinner so i'll be back later to reply, cheers!


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

@snapcrackle

oh man, so frustrating i can't freely post links yet

anyhoos, i'm going to try to give you a link on inferior eruption for ESXP's 

https
:
//
w
ww.
typologycentral
.
com/
forums/myers-briggs-and-jungian-cognitive-functions/29154-form-inferior-esps.
html

piece it all together in order in your address browser bar and you should be able to get it


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

@snapcrackle 

ok, here's a link on dom-tert loops, do the same thing piece together in order

http
:
//
personalitycafe
.
com/
articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.
html


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

i have to reach 15 posts to be able to post links freely, i should be nearing it now hopefully


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> i have to reach 15 posts to be able to post links freely, i should be nearing it now hopefully


Thank you for those links! Reading the typology central one about ESPs and inferior Ni confirms it for me. There were some things that I couldn't really recall or verbalize about it that were clearly described here. I related to both the ESFP and ESTP experiences, but ESFP more. Reading the article on dominant-tertiary loops, I still don't really recall looping in a way that is described for any of these 8 dom-ter loops. The Se-Te loop I have never experienced, thankfully, it sounds horrible and against what I stand for. "Aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops." Reading that made me want to stand before these two bullies and protect whoever they are trying to overpower or show aggression too. Not okay. Hey, maybe that's my Fi. I do remember feeling uncharacteristically angry before my Ni spell, but I clearly recall biting my tongue and forcing myself to deal with that alone, not put that out into the world.

I'm frustrated that I lost the part of my response regarding Fi (your mothers way of accessing Fi when feeling prevented from her Se needs by physical limitations. I'm glad she was able to find activities that engage her Fi, and activities that fulfill her Se needs). I'll try to find time to respond about my personal values later.

Thank you for these links and for jumping in to help me explore this!


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

snapcrackle said:


> Thank you for those links! Reading the typology central one about ESPs and inferior Ni confirms it for me. There were some things that I couldn't really recall or verbalize about it that were clearly described here. I related to both the ESFP and ESTP experiences, but ESFP more. Reading the article on dominant-tertiary loops, I still don't really recall looping in a way that is described for any of these 8 dom-ter loops. The Se-Te loop I have never experienced, thankfully, it sounds horrible and against what I stand for. "Aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops." Reading that made me want to stand before these two bullies and protect whoever they are trying to overpower or show aggression too. Not okay. Hey, maybe that's my Fi. I do remember feeling uncharacteristically angry before my Ni spell, but I clearly recall biting my tongue and forcing myself to deal with that alone, not put that out into the world.
> 
> I'm frustrated that I lost the part of my response regarding Fi (your mothers way of accessing Fi when feeling prevented from her Se needs by physical limitations. I'm glad she was able to find activities that engage her Fi, and activities that fulfill her Se needs). I'll try to find time to respond about my personal values later.
> 
> Thank you for these links and for jumping in to help me explore this!


oh i forgot to answer your question a while back in a previous post, i just study for hobby/pleasure not in school or anything like that. the dom/tert loop i understand for myself as an INFP, i relate to the description on the INFP-ISTJ dom/tert loop. I also find that i have some of the ways of the ISTJ as well, and that often makes me wonder if whatever the other type is that we share the same dom loop with, that we'll have some of that types ways as well. For an INFP i'm good at math, did some accounting, feel very convicted to be dutiful, organized, stuff like that. But overall i have more traits of the INFP than the ISTJ, and i'm very much a Fi dom introverted feeler, everything has to run through my feelings to determine value. I actually can't agree with those who say that F functions are not emotional, they are VERY emotional, packed with feelings. T's are more stoic with cold hard thinking logic. F's logic is the logic of feelings, something that stumps T's so when they try to describe the feeling functions as nothing to do with emotions and feelings it's because they themselves just don't understand it because they are T's. My opinion as an F.

In the journey of figuring out your type, others type, etc, you just have to keep reading and observing more and more, it's a never ending journey in a sea of knowledge, always plenty to learn more and more, never ending learning. I don't think we can live long enough to learn it all, the human psyche is very complex and no 2 people are exactly alike. Whatever type we are we will show more ways of that type in us than any other type, but we will show ways of other types in us also, but there is the one overall dominant type in us above all other types.

So back to the dom/tert loop, for an ESFP Se-Fi-Te-Ni that would be sharing the same dom/tert loop as an ENTJ Te-Ni-Se-Fi.

Just curious, do you observe any ways in you that are similar to the ENTJ's, not necessarily that you're in a loop, but just some of their stereotypical ways, can you pinpoint any, like how i pinpointed myself as an INFP Fi-Ne-Si-Te with some of the ways in me that correlate to an ISTJ Si-Te-Fi-Ne? 

If you're not familiar with the ENTJ's stereoptypical ways, read up on some of their descriptions and see what may resonate with you?

Also here's an article on the differences with ESTP and ESFP. Do the same for this, i don't think i hit quite 15 posts yet, this actually may be the 15th now for me, at last! 

https
:
//www
.
preludecharacteranalysis
.
com/types/estp/vs/esfp


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> So back to the dom/tert loop, for an ESFP Se-Fi-Te-Ni that would be sharing the same dom/tert loop as an ENTJ Te-Ni-Se-Fi.
> Just curious, do you observe any ways in you that are similar to the ENTJ's, not necessarily that you're in a loop, but just some of their stereotypical ways, can you pinpoint any, like how i pinpointed myself as an INFP Fi-Ne-Si-Te with some of the ways in me that correlate to an ISTJ Si-Te-Fi-Ne? If you're not familiar with the ENTJ's stereoptypical ways, read up on some of their descriptions and see what may resonate with you?


Oh wow, I cannot relate to the ENTJ. Especially the Te part! I cannot even imagine myself in that mindset all the time.

I don't know whether this site is true to typology, but found the loop descriptions easier to relate to. http ://infj-mbti .tumblr. com/ post/126404186698/can-you-describe-what-each-loop-looksacts-like

Before I get too deep into analyzing this, do you mind taking a look?

Quick thoughts: I related to the Fi-Ni (ISFP), Ni-Ti (INFJ) and Ni-Fi (INTJ) loops.

Is it possible that I'm confusing a loop (involving introversion and particularly Ni) as inferior Ni, when it's more an imbalance and auxiliary neglect situation?

Interesting stuff...


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

snapcrackle said:


> Oh wow, I cannot relate to the ENTJ. Especially the Te part! I cannot even imagine myself in that mindset all the time.
> 
> I don't know whether this site is true to typology, but found the loop descriptions easier to relate to. http ://infj-mbti .tumblr. com/ post/126404186698/can-you-describe-what-each-loop-looksacts-like
> 
> ...


well the inferior eruption personality is all the letters opposite, which is also all the cog functions in the reverse order. For ESTP Se Ti Fe Ni it would be INFJ Ni Fe Ti Se, and for ESFP Se Fi Te Ni, it would INTJ Ni Te Fi Se.

this is where i'm still trying to figure out the loop stuff verse the inferior eruption and inferior eruption grip? I know for sure engaging in Aux activities that allow Aux to be heavily used does pull me out of the loop, and i'm trying to figure it if that is true for the inferior eruption also? 

for what i said about the ways of ISTJ i have, math always good at with little effort, organizing good at with little effort. Accounting good at, but not my first love of a career, i ended up quitting and walking away from it within a few years of starting. Maybe if i was doing accounting for a charity it would have been more bearable, but it was just a regular business with no emotional aspect so i felt an emptiness in my soul and gave up that career. I only went into that career (at 32) because i was always just job hopping and making minimal weekly earnings so i was hoping to have a more organized calm lifestyle where i wouldn't be always in financial dilemnas and can't keep up with just basic bills. But that was the only reason i ventured into it and then a few years later walked away from it. It just didn't fulfill my values, i felt i had to go against some of my dearly held values to do it. Plus i don't like desk jobs, so should i have tried going to another company and see if it would have been more meaningful and fulfilling to my soul, probably not because i just don't like going to work everyday to a desk and do paperwork, it's very unfulfilling to me, no matter i'm good at it. I rather make less money and be more happy. True INFP, not much concerned of money, the ISFP is like that too, i think we score at the bottom of the list when it comes to be concerned of money. And i've never been able to save in my life, just short term saving for a very short term goal but nothing prolonged, always pretty much just barely getting by or broke sometimes.

I'm raised with an ESTJ Dad and that probably put me in the loop alot and inferior eruptions alot too. My Dad thinks i'm irrational which is how alot of T types view INFP's. And i think he's too egocentric and thinks only he knows what is best and he's rude sometimes to people for no good reason and wants everyone to do everything his way and serve him. We get into alot of arguments.

I'm not from a stable home life, so i probably did live in the loop alot. But if i hang with an ISTJ, they get sick of my emotional side and think i'm irrational too, they are just more quiet and respectful about it, than ESTJ's per say like my Dad.

INFP's like to be true to themself and not worry about following any group but staying true to their own values. Values is very sacred to an INFP. Money is no where as important to an INFP as values and staying true to one's self. No matter who thinks they are irrational, it doesn't matter.

They will take being jeered at but unmovable and planted solid as a rock.

And i'm into harmony, i'm an idealist and believe we can all live in harmony if everyone would give their effort of being kind and nice to one another, i always seek an ideal harmonious environment, so if i can't find it with people, i find it with being like a hermit and having pets in my own little world. But i still always try to create harmony in my family or at workplaces never the less.

I care more about a person's wellbeing in their soul, i always want everyone to feel happy and be well in their soul. I probably should have went into a counseling career, but would i have felt too restricted and bored to be tied down to just one career as an INFP, who knows? I get bored easily and want explore possibilities with my Ne.

And being dutiful is my desire but often causes burn out and inferior eruption because i want to use my Ne more rather than my tert Si so too much duty will throw me into an inferior eruption. But i'm loyal and when i raised my child, i put my nose to the grindstone to be dutiful and take care of her properly and well, but it was hard at times, it took great effort, not the ease of how Si doms do it, takes alot of effort for me. But i'm loyal and my values for that would be i believe i have to be a good parent to my child, so i use great effort to buckle down and use my Si and be more stable and timely. Now i'm middle aged so no i would not want to raise children again, i like my freedom now to use my Ne more and not as rigid strict timetables and duties. 

So when i was asking you about ENTJ, what i meant was if you read an ENTJ profile, not talking about loops now, do you see anything in the stereotype that you relate to? Most of their mindset you're not going to relate to, but do you see some things you do relate to?

Yeah, so ESTP would seem like an irrational immature INFJ when in inferior eruption, and ESFP would seem like INTJ.

So out of the 3 you say you some relative things, ISFP, INFJ, INTJ, all are Ni, and INTJ and INFJ are the reverse types for ESFP and ESTP, and your Se is very dom. 

I am no expert on loops, still trying to figure it out, even so still learning about other types and their inferior eruptions.

What you need to do is really try to figure out what is it that you did right before you broke out of your inferior eruption grip, try to really observe and notice that?

And also, when you engage your Fi in activities that strongly use your Fi, what did it feel like for you from how you felt before you engaged in strong Fi activities?

Stuff like observing and noticing that can solve more of the mystery of loops, eruptions and grips.

I agree it's all very interesting stuff, i never get tired of studying, observing and learning more. Everytime i'm around people i'm always either trying to figure out their type by observing them or if i already know their type, i'm always observing their ways and actions and things they say to see how it correlates to their type, i do this even watching people on TV or whatever, i love this stuff! 

EDIT: 
Add more:
By the way i did go and look at that link you posted and read all of the descriptions for each type, again i do relate to INFP/ISTJ for sure in the Fi-Si / Si-Fi loop stuff. So for me the loop descriptions do apply.

Someone once said that the loop is like a circle with different entry points, that no matter how you entered in (whether ISTJ or INFP S-Fi or Fi-Si) once you are in it's pretty similar in the same circle.
So that is another way to look at loops too.


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> I agree it's all very interesting stuff, i never get tired of studying, observing and learning more. Everytime i'm around people i'm always either trying to figure out their type by observing them or if i already know their type, i'm always observing their ways and actions and things they say to see how it correlates to their type, i do this even watching people on TV or whatever, i love this stuff!


I bet it makes your Ne curiosity happy too! Would you mind if I send you a PM? (It might take me a couple days before I have the chance).


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

snapcrackle said:


> I bet it makes your Ne curiosity happy too! Would you mind if I send you a PM? (It might take me a couple days before I have the chance).


Yes, it engages my Ne to try to help people figure out their type, by exploring so many possibilities, of course of course!!! :happy:

sure you can pm me whenever you get the chance, no prob!


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> Yes, it engages my Ne to try to help people figure out their type, by exploring so many possibilities, of course of course!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't reply to your message, something about reaching my quota, probably because I haven't posted enough yet. I'll have to play around here and see if I can get those rights!


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

I've been watching some videos and reading about ESTP and ISTP.

Se dominant, Fe tertiary and Ni inferior are really matching up for me, more than the ISTP's arrangement of functions. But I'm just not sure about Ti auxiliary, so I'm trying to get some more info and increase my understanding of Ti. If it really is my auxillary, I should be able to instantly relate to it though? I also think I'm confusing myself by thinking of two people that I know extremely well that are ISTP and INFJ as I read, and everything seems to be very fitting for them. I keep forgetting that I'm analyzing myself and not them...


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

snapcrackle said:


> I've been watching some videos and reading about ESTP and ISTP.
> 
> Se dominant, Fe tertiary and Ni inferior are really matching up for me, more than the ISTP's arrangement of functions. But I'm just not sure about Ti auxiliary, so I'm trying to get some more info and increase my understanding of Ti. If it really is my auxillary, I should be able to instantly relate to it though? I also think I'm confusing myself by thinking of two people that I know extremely well that are ISTP and INFJ as I read, and everything seems to be very fitting for them. I keep forgetting that I'm analyzing myself and not them...


yeah i know what you mean about not being able to do certain things because you haven't reached the 15 posts mark, i finally reached mine!

at this time it may be helpful for you to browse through the forums of the ESTP, ESFP and ISTP.

Let me know what you relate to. I don't think you're an introvert though and it does seem you show Se dom and Ni aux. But just for the sake of seeing a little bit of an ISTP's mind also by browsing their forum will help you to see the differences of types.

Try that and let me know how you relate to those 3?

EDIT:
add more 

And while you're at it, why not browse the ISFP forum also to see the differences of the 4 types who are Se dom or aux, and Ni tert or inferior - the 4 SP types
ESTP
ISTP
ESFP
ISFP
I think this will really help you to see more clearly.

http://personalitycafe.com/keirsey-temperament-forums/

ADD MORE AGAIN:
snapcrackle read up on the 8 cog functions on this site and see which ones you relate to from most to least, reply back with a list like that from most to least at last.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Introverted-Feeling.cfm


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

@*snapcrackle *

Is your relationship okay?

Sorry for the blunt question but I am slightly worried that there may be something buried within you what you have wrote.


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

myjazz said:


> @*snapcrackle *
> 
> Is your relationship okay?
> 
> Sorry for the blunt question but I am slightly worried that there may be something buried within you what you have wrote.


That's so incredibly kind of you to wonder and ask. Yes, we are okay. There are areas that will always be strained due to different perspectives and interests conversationally. And, it probably has brought out more difficult aspects of each of our own personalities.. But I'm in it for the long run. Our current life situation is more complex than I'm comfortable posting publicly, but we go through what we go through together. Reading back over my post and recalling my state of my mind in that moment, I was feeling very trapped by our life.. but that's not his doing, it's our present situation. I feel like I'm being so vague . Thank you for asking though!


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

myjazz said:


> @*snapcrackle *
> 
> Is your relationship okay?
> 
> Sorry for the blunt question but I am slightly worried that there may be something buried within you what you have wrote.


Dammit, my response to you was BS. I do that a lot "I'm great, thanks!" I hate appearing negative even when things aren't great. But I need to learn to let my guard down or I'll always feel misunderstood.

There is definitely something in me screaming that it wants "more than this provincial life".

I think I unintentionally and inappropriately blame my partner for these feelings when they boil over. But he is my rock and I truly do love him and don't want to be without him.

I can't say I'm living my life in a way that satisfies who I really am. But I honestly don't know if I'd be happier in a different life. I do know that I suppress massive amounts of passion so not to be selfish. Part of me "knows" that I was destined for something bigger or at least more passionate and eventful than this lifestyle that suits others so well. Not that I'm meant to be famous, but rather that I have a gigantic amount of thought and feeling and perspective and energy and curiosity and sensuality and spontaneous craziness shoved into this little mind and body of mine. And I swallow it constantly because people don't behave that way, and I don't want to F up someone elses life to do so, or because I have a complex personality and don't know what I want. You know, like Rose in Titanic feeling like she's standing in the middle of a crowded room, screaming and no one even looks up. But instead I bite my tongue and carry on, and not a single soul could know of any of this just by looking at my smiling face. I guess I just think I was on my way to the great big world out there but let myself think I was flawed for wanting something more, so I shoved myself into a life of "shoulds" instead of just letting life happen to me.

For the life of me I can't tell if I'm Se with Ni eruptions or something else and suppressing Se and want to let it free XD. Or something else all together. Or maybe everyone feels this way!?

I bet you had no intention of becoming a listener here, so I apologize for unloading. Whoosh, sure feels good to get that out though. Please feel no pressure to respond, and I promise that is the end of the negativity you'll see from me. Got all that out, now shaking it off .


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

snapcrackle said:


> Dammit, my response to you was BS. I do that a lot "I'm great, thanks!" I hate appearing negative even when things aren't great. But I need to learn to let my guard down or I'll always feel misunderstood.
> 
> There is definitely something in me screaming that it wants "more than this provincial life".
> 
> ...


I always love how passionate high Fi Types write, either it be ups or downs.

It seems that your Ni is rising up to try to help you with something. A lot of people don't realize that Ni is above all else there to help the person thru life, that's its root purpose. 

Sense we are be honest here, yes becoming a listener is part of what I wanted so don't worry about feeling like you burdened me. I noticed some resistance and slight pushing away of your partner. I wouldn't of asked if I didn't want to listen 

I can barley imagine a Se Dom trying to deal with Ni rising to the top like you are, at lease it seems that way. It's your Introverted Feelings is what strikes me as possible collision's. The thing I been wondering about is what is your Ni trying to tell you?

I am glad that it felt good to get those emotions out.....imagine the day when you do so with your partner.


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

@snapcrackle

Found some good links about ESFPs to read:
http://personalitycafe.com/esfp-articles/87817-extraverted-sensation-type-se-dom-described-jung.html
http://personalitycafe.com/esfp-art...ring-understanding-personality-type-book.html
http://personalitycafe.com/esfp-articles/1084154-lenore-thompsons-esxp-type-descriptions.html
http://personalitycafe.com/esfp-articles/991826-ferroequinologists-se-description.html

First three links are from legit literature about typology and the last one is from insightful ISFP, who has lots of life experience with various types and applied typology, so understand them through typology lenses. May not sound too legit, but I found him being similar to Jung, especially his writing style and the way he writes about types. Just like Jung hes's talking from experience, while knowing typology. 

I hope I can help you in your type discovery.


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

The red spirit said:


> @snapcrackle
> 
> Found some good links about ESFPs to read:
> 
> I hope I can help you in your type discovery.


Thank you, these are very helpful. Although, it's almost annoying to find that I really do fit into the ESFP box so we'll XD, not as unique as I thought when it comes to my strengths, weaknesses and what lifts me up and tears me down! But, that is the point of coming here, to better understand what I go through and hopefully better understand how to use it to grow instead of letting it beat me down. Do you have any tips on how to work on Fi and let Fi work on me? I can definitely see Fi in myself, but I don't understand how to deliberately engage it and make it stronger.


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## mountaintop (Jan 22, 2018)

snapcrackle said:


> Thank you, these are very helpful. Although, it's almost annoying to find that I really do fit into the ESFP box so we'll XD, not as unique as I thought when it comes to my strengths, weaknesses and what lifts me up and tears me down! But, that is the point of coming here, to better understand what I go through and hopefully better understand how to use it to grow instead of letting it beat me down. Do you have any tips on how to work on Fi and let Fi work on me? I can definitely see Fi in myself, but I don't understand how to deliberately engage it and make it stronger.


here's how ESFP's use Fi. at the bottom is the link to the entire article of Fi dom and Fi aux.
Remember i told you how my Mom uses her Fi now as she is 74 and not able to go and do things or travel on whim anymore because she's not as physically able and she has the onset of alzheimers, so she goes to the after school music class at a church for kids around 6-11 (some of them problematic from broken homes and she helps keeps them in line and focused on playing the instruments but she's not a teacher, just an assistant) and this is how she engages her Fi now with this new old life of being somewhat not as agile or capable of living more on a social whim that she loves so much to do, she goes about 3 times a week and it puts the spark back in her eyes.

So no you're not at this stage of life as an ESFP like she is, and in this article here you'll see ESFP with their Fi love music, art, dancing, so she partakes in that concept of music but in a different way by helping those kids to enjoy their music experience, like she's living her life through them and enjoying her life through them that she can't do herself, something like that.

So, one of the knick names for ESFP's are the Performers/Entertainers. They are social butterflies and can be the life of the party. My Mom used to have alot of small parties at her house throughout her years, she loved to entertain and have little parties and go to little or big parties, not necessarily to be drunken, just to enjoy using her Se/Fi and be happy and having fun with other people being happy. When my Mom and Dad split when she was 40 she took off by herself and backpacked through the Greek Islands and other places, she would stay at hostels and then meet people of the same mindset and do things together and have fun. And we're from the Caribbean, so that's a far hike to Greece and different culture, land etc. That's travelling on a whim which ESTP's and ESFP's like to do alot.

So maybe you can find some kind of music, dancing or art to be a positive outlet to engage your Fi!

I wish the best for you and all the happiness in the world! 

here's the part of the article on ESFP with Fi:

How ESFPs Use Fi:

ESFPs are naturally in tune with the outer world and are inspired by the beauty and commotion of life. They are usually quick thinkers when they are in crisis situations and are excellent at providing practical support. They are hands-on in their efforts to help other people, trying to see exactly what is needed now and respond accordingly. They often like to express their internal feelings and passions in some physical way; through art, dancing, or music. There have been numerous outstanding ESFP entertainers, people like Bob Hope, Marilyn Monroe, and Elvis Presley.

ESFPs are energized by an exciting and fast-paced life. They look for new and novel experiences and are often adventurous. They are known for being friendly and handling human communication with ease. Among ESFPs are the students whose high school class voted them “the friendliest” or “the best sport”. ESFPs may focus more on their feelings, their causes, and their values when they are alone and away from outside influences and pressures. At this point they may withdraw into themselves to discern whether their lives align with their values, how the experiences of the day have made them feel, and whether they are at peace with their current environment.

https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2017/01/17/use-introverted-feeling-based-location-function-stack/


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

snapcrackle said:


> Thank you, these are very helpful. Although, it's almost annoying to find that I really do fit into the ESFP box so we'll XD, not as unique as I thought when it comes to my strengths, weaknesses and what lifts me up and tears me down!


But all types are like that. You can and probably am more unique as individual. You can always become like that and you should if it's what you desire. Don't be defeated by type, defeat the type, break out of that cage! 





snapcrackle said:


> But, that is the point of coming here, to better understand what I go through and hopefully better understand how to use it to grow instead of letting it beat me down. Do you have any tips on how to work on Fi and let Fi work on me? I can definitely see Fi in myself, but I don't understand how to deliberately engage it and make it stronger.


Engage? You shall not force it, it should came naturally and that will be best for you. You don't use it, you are Fi. The best way to grow your Fi is to not think about it much, mostly forget it. That way should be easy to have it balanced.


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

The red spirit said:


> Engage? You shall not force it, it should came naturally and that will be best for you. You don't use it, you are Fi. The best way to grow your Fi is to not think about it much, mostly forget it. That way should be easy to have it balanced.




Truth. 

I'm glad you said this


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

mountaintop said:


> Remember i told you how my Mom uses her Fi now as she is 74 and not able to go and do things or travel on whim anymore because she's not as physically able and she has the onset of alzheimers, so she goes to the after school music class at a church for kids around 6-11 (some of them problematic from broken homes and she helps keeps them in line and focused on playing the instruments but she's not a teacher, just an assistant) and this is how she engages her Fi now with this new old life of being somewhat not as agile or capable of living more on a social whim that she loves so much to do, she goes about 3 times a week and it puts the spark back in her eyes.
> 
> So no you're not at this stage of life as an ESFP like she is, and in this article here you'll see ESFP with their Fi love music, art, dancing, so she partakes in that concept of music but in a different way by helping those kids to enjoy their music experience, like she's living her life through them and enjoying her life through them that she can't do herself, something like that.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, and I wish likewise for you!

Your mom sounds amazing.. I want to be her adventure buddy. I'm so sorry she has Alzheimer's, that's got to be so hard.

And thanks for putting so much thought into your answers and for helping me out!


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## snapcrackle (Jan 24, 2018)

myjazz said:


> I always love how passionate high Fi Types write, either it be ups or downs.
> 
> It seems that your Ni is rising up to try to help you with something. A lot of people don't realize that Ni is above all else there to help the person thru life, that's its root purpose.
> 
> ...


Thank you! And you're so right there with that last comment.


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