# Can animals have mental illness?



## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

I was wondering today if animals could suffer from mental illness. Or is it the price of higher intelligence?


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Definitely they can.

A long time ago I saw one those animal cruelty campaign videos.

It showed dogs and cats in cages, they all looked bat shit crazy, pacing backwards and forwards, nodding their heads up and down in funny ways, etc etc. I think humans would go similarly loony in such an environment.

And it's quite obvious dogs feel happiness and sadness towards certain stimuli. This is evidence enough to suggest they have emotions and perceptions, hence they can get a mental illness if exposed to the wrong things.

I suppose it's more interesting to consider whether the smaller things can get a mental illness. Insects, slugs, other basic organisms.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

HAL said:


> Definitely they can.
> 
> A long time ago I saw one those animal cruelty campaign videos.
> 
> ...


Yes that would be really interesting. But when I was thinking about mental illness I was thinking more about complex illnesses like OCD, BDD, eating disorders. Are they natural or happened because of social interactions and society? Would love to know what do u think


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Yes that would be really interesting. But when I was thinking about mental illness I was thinking more about complex illnesses like OCD, BDD, eating disorders. Are they natural or happened because of social interactions and society? Would love to know what do u think


I think complex animals probably can have problems caused by their own social experience.

I mean, training any animal to perform things is psychological for a start! Making a dog sit, or a dolphin jump through a hoop, or whatever else. So I guess if they can have their mindset altered in that way, they can surely be altered to have comparatively negative feelings too.

Regarding things like OCD etc. Are they things that a person is born with? If so, I think animals can just as easily be born with those issues too. I find it fascinating how physiologically similar all animals are. Ok we look quite different, but if you remove the skin and bones, I think the internal working parts of various creatures all look amazingly similar. To me that is evidence enough to suggest they can sometimes suffer similar psychological conditions.


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## AmandaLee (Aug 13, 2014)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Yes that would be really interesting. But when I was thinking about mental illness I was thinking more about complex illnesses like OCD, BDD, eating disorders. Are they natural or happened because of social interactions and society? Would love to know what do u think


As for BDD and eating disorders, I would have to say no, given that they're disorders related to body image, and for one to have a body image in the first place, one has to be sentient, or self-aware. At present, only humans and certain individuals of great apes have been proven to be self-aware. @HAL mentioned repetitive movements in captive animals, so-called stereotypies, but it's thought to be a neurological condition rather than a mental one.


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

KevinInHeaven said:


> I was wondering today if animals could suffer from mental illness. Or is it the price of higher intelligence?


No they can't, not lower animals at least, like cats and dogs. Not sure about monkeys. Animals live in the moment. They feel things, like can be afraid or feel down, but I don't think we can diagnose an animal with clinical depression or something.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

conscius said:


> No they can't, not lower animals at least, like cats and dogs. Not sure about monkeys. Animals live in the moment. They feel things, like can be afraid or feel down, but I don't think we can diagnose an animal with clinical depression or something.


I can't really comment on cats, but dogs recognise their owners and can get very sad when the owner dies. Also consider how dogs will pester for going to play, go for a walk, etc. I don't really think that's living in the moment, and I do think it shows they have a certain deeper complexity, with memories, feelings, desires, and some concept of past, present and future.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

conscius said:


> No they can't, not lower animals at least, like cats and dogs. Not sure about monkeys. Animals live in the moment. They feel things, like can be afraid or feel down, but I don't think we can diagnose an animal with clinical depression or something.


False. Cats and dogs can have anxiety and OCD-type disorders.


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## johnnyyukon (Nov 8, 2013)

Definitely, especially when they hang around humans


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## TapudiPie (Feb 21, 2015)

Yep
There are countless cases of abused pets suffering from depression and anxiety disorders
There are animals with eating disorders although it is usually the result of a certain trauma related to food denial or result of what I stated before


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## Amaryllis (Mar 14, 2014)

You can see it with some inbred dogs. When he was a child, my father had a dog that was a wild beast, it even attacked him once, almost killed him. That dog was a hellhound.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

Really interesting. Thank you all for commenting!


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

conscius said:


> No they can't, not lower animals at least, like cats and dogs. Not sure about monkeys. Animals live in the moment. They feel things, like can be afraid or feel down, but I don't think we can diagnose an animal with clinical depression or something.


Um yes they can. My ISTJs mom raised bully breeds and one of them took prozac.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

HAL said:


> I can't really comment on cats, but dogs recognise their owners and can get very sad when the owner dies. Also consider how dogs will pester for going to play, go for a walk, etc. I don't really think that's living in the moment, and I do think it shows they have a certain deeper complexity, with memories, feelings, desires, and some concept of past, present and future.


Cats actually have a more complex cerebral cortex than dogs and they also miss their owners and show affection in a more subtle language than dogs. Cats communicate with each other through facial expressions, and cats who are around humans meow more in an attempt to communicate with vocal humans. Cats and dogs just are different animals, but they both can show extraordinary attachment and a desire to play, etc. 

Amazing Nurse Cat Comforts Other Sick Animals in Polish Animal Shelter (PHOTOS) | One Green Planet


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Thalassa said:


> Um yes they can. My ISTJs mom raised bully breeds and one of them took prozac.





koalaroo said:


> False. Cats and dogs can have anxiety and OCD-type disorders.


I think it's wrong, on so many levels, to give Prozac to an animal.

A few things:

-My opinion is not a lay person opinion, I'm basing what I'm saying on my background in psychology.
-Mental illness, as a concept, is very human. It was not conceptualized with animals in mind. It still remains controversial even amongst humans, with a group of people saying it does not even exist in humans, that it's not real. It's always controversial when mental illness is diagnosed in children. 
-To say a dog can't have mental illness, is not to say they don't suffer, can't feel pain, can't be afraid, etc. A lot of times symptoms in animals is treated as a physical illness, not a mental one.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

conscius said:


> I think it's wrong, on so many levels, to give Prozac to an animal.
> 
> A few things:
> 
> ...


You're not a veterinarian. Bully breeds are notoriously neurotic, some are so aggressive they can attack and kill people. A neurotic pit bull given an SSRI is trainable so it doesn't have to be euthenized. Vets prescribe these medications, having a background in psychology doesn't make you a psychiatrist, who do treat mental illness, including in people, on a physical level. 

If you are going to argue against SSRI for pit bulls, maybe you are also against psychiatric meds for humans?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Pets and Antidepressants: 5 Reasons Why Your Vet Would Prescribe Them


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Thalassa said:


> You're not a veterinarian. Bully breeds are notoriously neurotic, some are so aggressive they can attack and kill people. A neurotic pit bull given an SSRI is trainable so it doesn't have to be euthenized. Vets prescribe these medications, having a background in psychology doesn't make you a psychiatrist, who do treat mental illness, including in people, on a physical level.
> 
> If you are going to argue against SSRI for pit bulls, maybe you are also against psychiatric meds for humans?


No, I'm not arguing against meds for people, I'm just saying it's controversial enough as it is with people, it's crazy to give antidepressant to an animal. 

True, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or veterinarian. But I do know that SSRIs were developed for humans, and tested in humans for a human problem. It's unethical to give them to animals under the guise of it treating a "mental illness."

The only reason I can imagine a veterinarian give a psychoactive medication to an animal is for their sedative properties, assuming it's been tested in said animal and does not have any other side effects or cause serious physical illness. If a drug makes the animal sleepy or tired, the animal will appear more well-behaved. If that's the purpose, I understand. But if it is to say it's treating some mental illness, I still disagree.

-Edit: I wonder if my reply has caused some confusion, I should not have said I'm against Prozac for animals, I only meant if it's given under the guise of treating a mental illness, given that this is what the thread was about. I'm not familiar with research on these meds in animals in terms of their sedative properties and there may be research that supports it. Just wanted to clarify what I said, cause looking it over I notice might be confusing.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

conscius said:


> No, I'm not arguing against meds for people, I'm just saying it's controversial enough as it is with people, it's crazy to give antidepressant to an animal.
> 
> True, I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist or veterinarian. But I do know that SSRIs were developed for humans, and tested in humans for a human problem. It's unethical to give them to animals under the guise of it treating a "mental illness."
> 
> ...


Animals can be mentally ill. Mental illness means something is amiss neurologically or in the brain chemistry. This can be the result of genetics, toxin exposure, or early trauma. Cats who chew all of their own fur off have OCD anxiety. Dogs who destroy homes and attack people have problems that should be addressed if you don't want to kill the animal. Aging animals, like aging humans, can have issues with dementia. 

It's controversial with humans because too many people don't want to look at other causes of illness, like environmental issues. One study of fidgeting children in a fifth grade classroom revealed all but one were physically out of shape and not getting enough exercise. 

Same thing with drugs or food chemicals like sugar, aspartame and other artificial sweeteners, food dyes, etc. Aspartame in diet soda has been linked to anxiety and panic.

But with animals, it's pretty easy to rule out inactivity, diet soda and junk food. Other than abuse from the pet owner, what else is there?

It's not crazy to give an animal an SSRI. It's crazy to over prescribe them to anyone without looking at other factors.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

This is really interesting. I never thought of this. Cool topic.


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## NurseCat (Jan 20, 2015)

I know for certain they can have anxiety disorders such as OCD. When under stress many animals engage in compulsive behavior like pacing back and forth, and sleeping where they use the restroom so it smells like their territory. Abuse affects animals and a cat or dog can be just as miserable as a person, although they are less self aware and cannot verbalize it in a way we understand.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

koalaroo said:


> False. Cats and dogs can have anxiety and OCD-type disorders.


I'm pretty sure every weimaraner that ever lived has both of those...

I'm only half joking. Thoroughly high-strung pups.


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## klhood16 (Jun 9, 2015)

KevinInHeaven said:


> Yes that would be really interesting. But when I was thinking about mental illness I was thinking more about complex illnesses like OCD, BDD, eating disorders. Are they natural or happened because of social interactions and society? Would love to know what do u think


Yes! Dogs and cats sometimes exhibit OCD behaviors and the obvious anxiety and depression. Two OCD behaviors in dogs are licking and turning in circles

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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

Zoo Chimps' Mental Health Affected by Captivity : Discovery News

Captive Chimpanzees Show Signs Of Mental Illness

http://en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychopathology


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

When my Labrador lost her mate violently and suddenly she went into a state of staring despondently and not responding to calls unless you actually touched her. She started licking and tearing at her hair making bald patches everywhere. After doing some research about it there are a lot of pages about Dobermans and Labradors being prone to this kind of behaviour. It's a form of OCD (the pages also said Labs and Dobermans are also prone to pica as well).

I just took to taking her everywhere with me and doing her favourite things like taking her to anywhere there was water, other dogs to play with and kids. She came out of it eventually.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

Cats and Dogs, can have epileptic seizures, diabetes, dementia, I'm sure they can have a mental illness.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

Thanks all for your awesome info.  So far a lot of people saying anxiety and depression seem common in animals. You also mentioned animals are not as self-aware as humans. But can they have the more complex stuff (BDD, Narcissistic personality disorder...) I think it is unlikely because they need to have a more advanced image of themselves. If thats the case, lets say there are aliens way more intelligent than us, who look at us just like we look at animals. Will they have more types of mental illnesses? Things we didn't think of...


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

Treebob Psychotic Due to PerC Members Torment -- Journal of Primate Psychopathology


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

Lexicon Devil said:


> Treebob Psychotic Due to PerC Members Torment -- Journal of Primate Psychopathology


Lets pretend I got what you were trying to say


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

Kind of makes you wonder.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

me mudder had a cat that was insane
every time i would visit her ginger the devil cat would crouch down and hiss at me 
every hair on her insane body and tail would be standing straight up
the cat would hiss so hard and intense that it would start gagging


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

I had a cat that would get really hyper-active that would periodically run around the house, and up and down the walls, even sometimes the ceiling and then fly back down. She would literally run up the ceilings, and then kick her paws off the roof and fly back down the walls, and then freaking run sideways across the walls, and then jump on the curtains and hang off of them. Sometimes she would just jump on the curtains to hang off of them. She was god damn insane.

Then I had a guinea pig that would randomly jump around and making honking shrieking noises all of the time. Like, he'd jump in the air and shake his body around honking all of the time. Sometimes I would pat his head and he'd get really angry and just jump around honking at me. 

And then I had a hamster that lived in a giant bird-cage. He would climb all the way to the top of the bird cage and just hang there all time by his little hands. I'd walk by and he'd be hanging there looking at me. He'd usually fall all the way down and then just do it again.

My favorite animal of all time had birth-deformities, I felt so bad for her. I don't think anyone wanted to adopt her, but I would have had I been allowed to. She had a bent crooked neck, and couldn't see very well. No one wanted to adopt them..: (

That was when I volunteered at the SPCA.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

GhostShadow said:


> I had a cat that would get really hyper-active that would periodically run around the house, and up and down the walls, even sometimes the ceiling and then fly back down. She would literally run up the ceilings, and then kick her paws off the roof and fly back down the walls, and then freaking run sideways across the walls, and then jump on the curtains and hang off of them. Sometimes she would just jump on the curtains to hang off of them. She was god damn insane.
> 
> Then I had a guinea pig that would randomly jump around and making honking shrieking noises all of the time. Like, he'd jump in the air and shake his body around honking all of the time. Sometimes I would pat his head and he'd get really angry and just jump around honking at me.
> 
> ...



I have had a cat with depression. Basically when she left our house, and lived somewhere else she changed and didn't like anyone. She escaped after that. Her sister had kittens and stayed. She had a really interesting personality. She was kinda crazy sometimes she runs around for no reason and she will look terrified. Also she liked to pet people not the other way around. She liked to lick others when they are sleeping or sleep with them. But during the day she won't. Her other sisters were typical lazy cats who eat and sleep. Maybe of a childhood memory, her mother tried to eat her. Really interesting.

BTW look at your post count. Illuminati!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

KevinInHeaven said:


> I have had a cat with depression. Basically when she left our house, and lived somewhere else she changed and didn't like anyone. She escaped after that. Her sister had kittens and stayed. She had a really interesting personality. She was kinda crazy sometimes she runs around for no reason and she will look terrified. Also she liked to pet people not the other way around. She liked to lick others when they are sleeping or sleep with them. But during the day she won't. Her other sisters were typical lazy cats who eat and sleep. Maybe of a childhood memory, her mother tried to eat her. Really interesting.
> 
> BTW look at your post count. Illuminati!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What about my post count?

I like that cats actually have personalities, unlike dogs, that just obey, and bark at everything.


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## KevinHeaven (Apr 6, 2015)

GhostShadow said:


> What about my post count?


It was 666 (( no longer haha


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

GhostShadow said:


> My favorite animal of all time had birth-deformities, I felt so bad for her. I don't think anyone wanted to adopt her, but I would have had I been allowed to. She had a bent crooked neck, and couldn't see very well. No one wanted to adopt them..: (


That made me almost tear up, that's so sad, I keep imagining how I would feel if I was in the place of that animal. The animals that would need love and care the most, least likely to get it. Story of life. People like beautiful cute things. But then there are people like yourself who give everybody hope.  Thank you for volunteering there.


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## ShadowsRunner (Apr 24, 2013)

conscius said:


> That made me almost tear up, that's so sad, I keep imagining how I would feel if I was in the place of that animal. The animals that would need love and care the most, least likely to get it. Story of life. People like beautiful cute things. But then there are people like yourself who give everybody hope.  Thank you for volunteering there.


Thanks.

Yeah, I think I'm just trying to make myself sound more caring then I actually am. 

Um....thinking back now, I had wish I did adopt it, as the chance of it being put down was probably pretty high, and I was really fond of it. I don't understand why nobody wanted the cat(Tickles) 

I already had two cats though, and I was always taking in stray cats around the neighborhood.

Also, my neighborhoods dog was always harassing me, it would chew holes in the fence and follow me to school. I don't know why, I guess animals love me!

It's probably because I was a misfit growing up.


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## KiRrRr (Jul 30, 2015)

AmandaLee said:


> As for BDD and eating disorders, I would have to say no, given that they're disorders related to body image, and for one to have a body image in the first place, one has to be sentient, or self-aware.


I have to disagree on this! Anorexia nervosa is not only considered to be a disorder related to body image... They have actually been able to create a mouse model for anorexia (ABA). When they put a mouse in a cage with a running wheel and give them food restrictions, the mice eventually start to run more in their wheels and eat less... Which can eventually lead to their death. So animals even can get eating disorders.



AmandaLee said:


> At present, only humans and certain individuals of great apes have been proven to be self-aware. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=102058" target="_blank">HAL</a></i></span>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> mentioned repetitive movements in captive animals, so-called stereotypies, but it's thought to be a neurological condition rather than a mental one.


The mirror test (the usual test to see if animals are self aware) showed that other animals have self-awareness too: Elephants, Rhesus Macaques, Dolphins, orca's and maybe surprisingly magpies. 


And as a comment to all cats/dogs emotions: it is always very tricky to connect the way humans feel emotions and the way animals do, since we are not sure if they experience it in the same way.
Me as a dog owner sees many human characteristics in their behaviour.. But it is superficial to think they perceive things as mourning etc the way we do...
A nice example is the guilt dogs usually show when they have done something bad... They show all characteristics of feeling guilty like we humans would. So many owners think that the dog knows he did something wrong. However this does not necessarily have to be the case. A nice anecdotal story about this is about an owner of a dog who always ran over the bookcase. Every-time the owner came home while the dog ran it over again it showed 'guilt'. One day he came home to his house and the dog showed this type of behaviour again. however the dog did not ran over the bookcase, but a buglar entered the house and turned the bookcase over. The dog associated books lying on the floor with being punished, therefore whenever his boss came home and there were books on the ground he showed submissive behaviour to prevent a bigger punishment. In this case the dog showing this type of behaviour did not necessarily have anything to do with actual guilt. 

On the other hand it is also really 'speciestic' to think that only humans are capable of higher emotions, such as empathy anhaving a sense of fairness. 
I'll show you one of my favourite video's about this :






So in my opinion animals for sure can have mental illnesses as humans can (the question however is if mental illnesses in humans are really mental or if there is a rather neurological source for this illness in humans as well).


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## gardengnome (Dec 12, 2014)

I had a hamster when I was younger and got a dog a little while after. The hamster soon lost loads of fur and would spend all its time in the plastic igloo thing inside its cage, only coming out in the dark, sometimes shaking. Then it got used to my dog in the house after a few months and returned to normal. Hamster depression?


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## KiRrRr (Jul 30, 2015)

gardengnome said:


> I had a hamster when I was younger and got a dog a little while after. The hamster soon lost loads of fur and would spend all its time in the plastic igloo thing inside its cage, only coming out in the dark, sometimes shaking. Then it got used to my dog in the house after a few months and returned to normal. Hamster depression?


Haha well yes our human interpretation of that behaviour could be depression...
I would rather call it a stress disorder... If I would place you next to a crocodile of which you were really scared, I bet you would also try to spend as much time in an area were you could not see it.. You would probably also eat less, or have an higher energy expenditure. Till the point where you actually realize... wait... This crocodile gets food so its never hungry... So it probably does not see me as a prey..
So harming me would be kinda useless.... And it cannot catch me anyway since i'm behind bars..... So why am I actually afraid? And then you go back to normal.

I don't believe hamsters can actually suffer from a depression... their brains are not that emotionally developed I think.... 
But well who knows


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