# Fed up with wings and tritypes?



## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

Hi everybody

Some things annoy me about how people use the enneagram: wings and tritypes.
Can't we simply say what types we score highest for in that order? Like my highest type is A, then B, then C etc
Why should your second highest type either being adjacent to your primary types, or should our three highest types each come from a different third of the symbol? Isn't that just making things overcomplicated?

(As anticipation against a possible argument about tritypes: I think that a type is more than a reactions against one specific emotion, either shame or fear or anger. It's an entire complex of different thoughts and emotions)

For me, wings work out pretty neatly. My highest type is Four, my second highest is Five. I'm a 4w5. But I know many people where this isn't the case. My mother is a Five, but her second highest type is One. In my case my second highest type is my wing type, in her case it's the second in her tritype? Why make the distinction?
I would prefer to call her a 5w1. I have a friend who is a 4w1, and one who is a 9w6. 

I would like to hear your reactions. Do you agree? (I expect some people have thought of this as well) Or do you disagree, and think wings and tritypes are something that needs to be preserved?


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

Well, the point of wings is that whichever theorists thought of wings noticed that most people of a certain type are flavored by one of the adjacent types, hence it being a "wing," because it stretches out just a bit from the core type. It's not about your second strongest type being next to your core type, it's about looking at how you are influenced by the types adjacent to you, relative to only those two possible wings.

For example, I type as a 6w7, and I feel as though 9 is my second "strongest" type. Not 7 or 5. But I barely feel a connection to 5 and have an okay connection to 7, so I'm 6w7. Neither of those types are super strong in me, but I relate to a 7ish frame of mind a lot more than a 5's frame of mind.

Saying that your mother has a 1 fix in the second number of her tritypes is fine to communicate what you're trying to communicate. If you're interested in what wing the test gives her, just isolate 4 and 6. Even if she scores low on both of them, which one influences her more?

Also, obligatory warning about how tests are dong.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

@Views from Kanto

The theory states that you are flavored by one of the adjacent types. But in my personal experience, you can be flavored by many different, and whether or not they are adjacent to your core type, makes no difference.

She is more Six than she is Four, I know that for sure. So she would be a 5w6. But wouldn't mentioning her One-side (which is the strongest of eight other types) convey more information about her than mentioning her Six-side (which is the strongest of the two neighboring types)?

I'm aware of how the system works, I'm simply asking why. The system isn't holy, we can improve it if we find a way to. Don't you think it would be more simple and efficient this way?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Agree with Kanto, you simply can't go with "the highest scores", because one's true enneagram type isn't determined by test taking. Even if it were, some people show marked differences between tests, and even the same test taken at different times.

If you get really familiar with the enneagram and your own habits, you see many of your daily patterns reflected in both your adjacent types. It isn't just that someone arbitrarily made up bullshit rules, it's that it comes from several generations of observing people and listening to their testimony. This, of course, does not mean you can't have other themes in your life, too--and it doesn't mean you can't strive for a new and better understanding of the system.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

My Enng is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9......This could derive from INFPs being that special snowflake. Because I know myself better than anyone, I also know I have each and everyone of these in my personality overall. I go with 4w5 only because there was no option to be all 9 wrapped up in one. Yep, I am each and everyone on any given day, I see no point in setting limits for myself when I can enjoy and experience every single type, it actually comes naturally.


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

ColdWindsRising said:


> @Views from Kanto
> 
> The theory states that you are flavored by one of the adjacent types. But in my personal experience, you can be flavored by many different, and whether or not they are adjacent to your core type, makes no difference.
> 
> She is more Six than she is Four, I know that for sure. So she would be a 5w6. But wouldn't mentioning her One-side (which is the strongest of eight other types) convey more information about her than mentioning her Six-side (which is the strongest of the two neighboring types)?


Sure, it's why they are called fixes. If you don't think that wing is significant, you can write a tritype like 51x and it will convey what you're trying to convey just fine. I've always found that a wing adds specific clarity to the explanation of in what specific ways a type goes about dealing with their core motivations, whereas a fix is necessarily in a different triad and doesn't seem to influence this as much (it more influences how you deal with lesser, but still present, motivations).



> I'm aware of how the system works, I'm simply asking why. The system isn't holy, we can improve it if we find a way to. Don't you think it would be more simple and efficient this way?


I get what you're trying to say, but why do we need the Enneagram to be a simplified system? If I can get more information about a person and how they operate, while staying within the scope of what the Enneagram is trying to describe, with them telling me their core type, a wing, and two other fixes (maybe even with wings), why would I say no to that?


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

Let me put it this way:
If my strongest types are Four and Five, I'm a 4w5.
If someone's strongest types are Four and One, he's a 41x.
My Five-side and his One-side are no different. Why should they be written differently?

In my eyes it is better that way. I'm not opposed to people using wings and tritypes, but I'd rather not and I'd like those who want to to have the option. It would be more easy for people starting to learn it. But every time someone says something like 5w1, people immediately say this isn't possible and they should read more about the enneagram. Could those who do that maybe tolerate this approach a bit more?

We could even list them like the instincts: I'm a 4/5/6/9/2, for example.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

Lord Bullingdon said:


> Agree with Kanto, you simply can't go with "the highest scores", because one's true enneagram type isn't determined by test taking. Even if it were, some people show marked differences between tests, and even the same test taken at different times.]
> 
> A little remark to begin with: this is not the result of a test, but of that person observing him/herself.
> 
> [If you get really familiar with the enneagram and your own habits, you see many of your daily patterns reflected in both your adjacent types. It isn't just that someone arbitrarily made up bullshit rules, it's that it comes from several generations of observing people and listening to their testimony. This, of course, does not mean you can't have other themes in your life, too--and it doesn't mean you can't strive for a new and better understanding of the system.


It is important to examine your own habits and thought processes. I believe that only these observations can tell you the truth. And if the outcomes tell you that a type not-adjacent has at the biggest influence on your core types, that does not mean the observations are wrong.

On the contrary, I think it's worse when people start to think that there are only two types to influence them. That way they will decide too soon instead of really observing themselves.

I'm always skeptic of a theory if I or people I know haven't experienced it.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Coincidentally, my tritype is composed of my three highest scores in order.  

But either way, I can see why someone would be at odds with this system. I've been agonizing over my wing lately, because I realized that I actually do have a great deal of 5 in me as well as 3. But of course, no one really talks about dual wings or what have you. It kind of killed some of my love for the Enneagram, because no one can really pin down the difference between w3 and w5. I think we all need to take more stock in our main type, with wings only as a supplementary guide.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

ColdWindsRising said:


> It is important to examine your own habits and thought processes. I believe that only these observations can tell you the truth. And if the outcomes tell you that a type not-adjacent has at the biggest influence on your core types, that does not mean the observations are wrong.
> 
> On the contrary, I think it's worse when people start to think that there are only two types to influence them. That way they will decide too soon instead of really observing themselves.
> 
> I'm always skeptic of a theory if I or people I know haven't experienced it.


Fair enough, but I don't think anybody would argue that only two types influence the core. Most practitioners will say something like, We're composed of all 9 types. What I find in my own case is that wings influence me _differently_ from fixes, and differently from connecting points. I think the system is there in part to explain that--what kind of influences you have at what levels when.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

I also believe we're composed of nine types. I don't see wings and fixes differently, but maybe that's because 5 is both my wing and the second type in my triad?

Oh, and something went wrong in my previous post. My commentary got stuck inside your quote. Didn't know I could do that.


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

When I was first getting into the Enneagram, I actually did do a simple ordering of my highest scoring numbers, mostly to show I wasn't entirely sure which would be "first", and they actually were in a tritype configuration, though I didn't know that at the time. Now I look back at the very rudimentary "typing" based on a poorly crafted quiz and I laugh because it was _so_ off-base. Communicating my "highest scores" didn't do much of anything. 

I'm not super big into wing theory or tritype theory, but I do understand the reasoning behind these theories. If you think the order and "formatting" of the types have no meaning, then the theories won't "work" for you anyway. But they do work experentially for a _lot_ of people, even if they don't work for *you* personally. If you don't like them, don't use them. 

And honestly, if people start going around saying, "oh my highest types are {some configuration unexplained by current theories}", I'm going to think they're mistyped, and that they'll probably type a way that does fit the theory some day.

also 4/5/6/9/2 can very easily be understood as a 4w5 469, strong line to 2 - all types accounted for!


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## janusz (Feb 5, 2016)

It seems like all agree that we have all enneatypes in our soul, but – in my opinion – nobody takes it seriously. If you do, you can also recognize the different structures (like wings or tritypes) inside. And you have a clear sequence of the strength of the nine points. If you like you can recall my thread : Going beyond the Tritype to the complete structure. :happy:


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

throughtheroses said:


> Coincidentally, my tritype is composed of my three highest scores in order.
> 
> But either way, I can see why someone would be at odds with this system. I've been agonizing over my wing lately, because I realized that I actually do have a great deal of 5 in me as well as 3. But of course, no one really talks about dual wings or what have you. It kind of killed some of my love for the Enneagram, because no one can really pin down the difference between w3 and w5. I think we all need to take more stock in our main type, with wings only as a supplementary guide.


Imo those two are very different. Initially I couldn't tell either because I was (and am) still learning but they are completely different personalities. Comparatively, w3 is more outgoing, more conventional in the image they project than w5. w5 brings an introverted flavor to the 4, using knowledge to supplement their self-introspection. w3 is more of a "performer" kind of artist...w5 is more of a withdrawn behind the scenes a "poet" kind of artist. I mean, I am not saying w3 is a performer etc., I am just trying to sketch out two personalities here. w5 can be quite unconventional compared to w3.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@Rose for a Heart

Thanks, I know the basic differences between the two wings. 

The problem is that I'm a barrel of contradictions (which makes me lean towards w3, since 4w3s are known for that sort of thing). I'm introverted and usually seen as 'mysterious' by people who don't know me, yet I can also be very happy-go-lucky and friendly if I'm in a good mood. I'm showy, but I also don't care what people think of me. I have a strong intellectual streak, but I also occasionally love to perform.

At the end of the day, I'm a 4 first and foremost. That makes such nebulous classifiers even more confusing, because at the end of the day, both are primarily 4s!


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

@throughtheroses
but it's not "nebulous" lol
imho


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@Rose for a Heart

Fine, but they're not mutually exclusive, either. Real people are more complicated than "conventional" vs. "introverted".

Many people--if not most, type notwithstanding--have elements of both wings. It's ludicrous to claim anything different.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

throughtheroses said:


> @*Rose for a Heart*
> 
> Fine, but they're not mutually exclusive, either. *Real people are more complicated than "conventional" vs. "introverted"*.
> 
> Many people--if not most, type notwithstanding--have elements of both wings. It's ludicrous to claim anything different.


I wasn't, and I don't think the theory is proposing anything different though. Imo, w3 _is _actually more outgoing when you put them next to w5.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Rose for a Heart said:


> I wasn't, and I don't think the theory is proposing anything different though. Imo, w3 _is _actually more outgoing when you put them next to w5.


*It's not always that simple.* Real people are complicated beings that don't fit into neat little boxes.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

throughtheroses said:


> @*Rose for a Heart*
> 
> Fine, but they're not mutually exclusive, either. Real people are more complicated than "conventional" vs. "introverted".
> 
> Many people--if not most, type notwithstanding--have elements of both wings. It's ludicrous to claim anything different.


Yes, I can relate to both 4 and 6 but since 4 tends to be my second strongest type; figuring out my wing was relatively easy. I think that wing theory is highly misunderstood by most people. Some have a "moderately heavy" wing like I do; some have a "moderate" wing or a "light" wing, and some (like you) have relatively equal elements of both. All scenarios are equally valid and plausible.


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

ColdWindsRising said:


> Let me put it this way:
> If my strongest types are Four and Five, I'm a 4w5.
> If someone's strongest types are Four and One, he's a 41x.
> My Five-side and his One-side are no different. Why should they be written differently?


Wing and tritype fix aren't the same thing. If your two strongest types are 4 and 5, that doesn't mean you're 4w5 -- that means 5 is probably (note: not definitely) your head fix.

Wings are "flavors." They characterize your core type. You don't have to relate to the core motivations of a wing to be that wing. However, in a fix, you do have to exhibit the core motivations.

You can't say a wing = a fix because that's like saying an orange = a mango.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

star tripper said:


> Wing and tritype fix aren't the same thing. If your two strongest types are 4 and 5, that doesn't mean you're 4w5 -- that means 5 is probably (note: not definitely) your head fix.
> 
> Wings are "flavors." They characterize your core type. You don't have to relate to the core motivations of a wing to be that wing. However, in a fix, you do have to exhibit the core motivations.
> 
> You can't say a wing = a fix because that's like saying an orange = a mango.


The point I was building up to is: Wouldn't it be better (simpler and more informative) if we say our strongest types instead of using these systems of wings and tritypes. I haven't noticed the significance of wings/tritypes in people, nor do I see a logical reason. The only thing I have, is Naranjo's word on it. You see why I'm sceptical.

You're making it too easy on yourself with the last statement. Wings and tritypes are abstract concepts we are taught to see. And abstract concepts can turn out to be the same thing. Oranges and mangos can be distinguished through the five senses.


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

ColdWindsRising said:


> The point I was building up to is: Wouldn't it be better (simpler and more informative) if we say our strongest types instead of using these systems of wings and tritypes. I haven't noticed the significance of wings/tritypes in people, nor do I see a logical reason. The only thing I have, is Naranjo's word on it. You see why I'm sceptical.
> 
> You're making it too easy on yourself with the last statement. Wings and tritypes are abstract concepts we are taught to see. And abstract concepts can turn out to be the same thing. Oranges and mangos can be distinguished through the five senses.


And I'm saying your simpler system is not congruent with the actual system. You are recategorizing a mango as an orange for the sake of simplicity. If you do this, you would have to change the name of the system.

Regarding your last point, I was trying to show you what you were doing by making a comparison you can see it with your eyes, but if we wanna stay in abstract principles, we could say x=/=y or something. The point is enneagram is designed to be a consistent logical system (we can debate on whether it actually is logical, but the fact of the matter is wings and tritypes are _defined_ very differently).

Anyway, if you want my opinion, I don't think tritypes make a massive difference and sometimes give people excuses to justify mistypings. Wings can sometimes make a huge difference though (in terms of helping the individual discern their own type), and that's why I don't agree with the idea of accepting the two strongest types while rejecting wings.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I hate the enneagram tests. For me there is almost no consistency. It is totally random for me. As with Myer-Briggs, tests don't guarantee a correct type. I read Jung first and figured out I was Ni and Fe and learned Myers-Briggs history, flaws, and intricacies of the system to doublecheck my type carried over for that system. Often people want quick and easy answers without really studying how the system works. 

If you don't like how the system works, as someone else said, a new system would have to be made. Wings are argued by some -- I get that. Also tritypes are argued by some -- I get that too. But then you would go solely by leading type -- not just going off one of the many enneagram tests and how you scored that moment of that day. 

We are all influenced by all nine types -- I don't think anyone would argue that. Also each type goes to one type when healthy, another when unhealthy. There are levels of health. There is subtype stacking. These are all major influences on how the main type is expressed and experienced. 

I do believe in wings and tritypes. I think how heavy a wing is is an individual thing -- and it is not the same, for a 4 with a 3 or 5 wing, as being much like an actual 3 or 5. It just alters a bit presentation of your key 4 nature. 

As for tritypes -- mine isn't immediately obvious. I had to learn a lot about my second and third types in detail (for instance, my secondary type is 6w7 -- definite 7 flavoring compared to 5 flavoring, and when not at a more healthy level I considered 8 influence but figured out it was really just my occassional flip to counterphobic 6 influence). I have 1 influence, but that is my 4 energy healthily going to 1. My real tertiary type is 9w1 (conflict terrifies me, but I deal with it more willingly than most 9's). 

I am a 4w3. 4 energy is intrinsic in every part of my life, every day. How make decisions, think, feel, etc. I am a 3 wing obviously in-person, but have some five touches on the other side. I am more talkative and focus a bit more on my presentation than w5. I like to stand out, work hard, and accomplish in a very unique and mysterious way. Yet utmost authenticity is most valuable to me.


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