# On Se and Si: The differences of "mobilization"



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Wanted to respond to this discussion but moving it here because @Tainted Streetlight didn't want it to continue in his thread:


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Silveresque said:


> I've observed the opposite attitude in Si types as well. My SEI and LSE parents frequently pressure me to get things done right away.
> 
> As a judicious type, I *need *to relax before I can get work done. Pressure can have the opposite effect, stressing me out and making it harder to get mobilized. Taking into account that some people need relaxation rather than pressure to mobilize, the attitude you described is not so impractical in some cases.





Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Pressuring you to do things right away? Well, I'm bothered by your use of the word pressure because you've stated they are Si/judicious types as well. But if I'm interpreting it correctly then maybe it's a behaviour I've also noticed in a couple of LSEs, and which bothered me even more so, where they insisted on me adopting a ridiculous amount of study time or, in other cases, doing things that could be left for much later just because. Idk, I get the sense it's related to Ni-porl in my case but I'm not sure.
> And, you see, I think stress mobilizes me so in my case it'd probably be different. It's certainly not healthy to be constantly bombarbed by stress though, obviously. I think it's important, whenever it's possible, to take into account individual needs.
> 
> But I was not thinking of work, not precisely. It's more of an attitude that's ocassionally bothered me in my delta parents and some other people. I started thinking about it while I got caught up reading the discussion in this article Final Fantasy XIV Will Allow Same-Sex Marriage After All that someone posted in another thread. Unless I'm completely off, the guy that starts the polemic debate is an xNTP. I noticed democracy, Fe values and the thinking I was talking about (not a pretty example).





Silveresque said:


> I think I know what guy you're talking about. The one who argues we have no right to impose our values (gay marriage) on other cultures that think it's wrong?
> 
> For me I'd say it depends on the particular value and whether I think it's something that is universally good and important or just something I personally value. In this case, I strongly disagree with that guy.
> 
> Anyways, earlier today I read a thread where an ESFJ mentioned how she one time locked a friend in the car with a girl he liked and wouldn't let him out until he asked her to go to prom with him. I also recall a thread where someone mentioned an ESTJ roommate taking away his sodas because they were unhealthy. So I don't think Si types are necessarily averse to imposing their values on others, being pushy, or pressuring.





Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Yeah, if you keep reading the discussion entirely revoles around what he said (or, well, the "popular discussion"). At one point he explicitly states that he believes there is no objective right or wrong and that values are agreed upon by a community, so definitely Fe (and a moral relativist, I guess). But yeah, basically, what stood out to me was what you mentioned.
> 
> 
> Hmm well I haven't thought much about what I'd do but I definitely feel there's some things that are objectively wrong and I'm all for pushing those ones. I think the notion of pushing through Se goes hand in hand with Ni, in the sense that if you are going to put pressure to accomplish a social change you need to have a vision of wether that group, or even an individual I guess, is mentally ready to change or not. You need to know if it's too soon and the attempt to persuade other people might be futile or may in fact work but will be in conflict with people's actual desires and beliefs. Or if it's an appropiate time.
> ...





I think the fundamental problem here is that "force" is not limited to the realm of Se. The real question is how force is applied and what purpose it serves. Se and Si types do mobilize differently, but one should also note that there is a strict difference between the appearances of the temperaments in that the EJ temperament can also come across as "forceful". It is also important to separate experience of stress from the (constant) need for mobilization as mobilization does in itself not indicate Se. 

For this purpose we therefore need to separate between what is Se and Si and how this differs from Je when we speak of mobilization, especially when doing that in relation to the Reinin trait judicious-decisive that is meant to separate between the Se- and Si-valuing quadras. 

Now, the Reinin trait thus states that:


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Judicious

Judicious types are relaxed in their natural state; they mobilize and concentrate only when needing to accomplish some objective. After the task has been completed, they demobilize again. This state of demobilization is the natural state of the Judicious types.
For Judicious types, it is mandatory that before they engage in some important task, they spend some time in this natural state of "slackness" (relax and distract themselves)—the better they rest, the better they will subsequently mobilize and concentrate at the crucial moments, and the better their overall performance will be. The more difficult the task ahead of them—the more crucial and necessary prior rest becomes.
A transition from a state of mobilization (high activity) to a state of slackness (low activity) for Judicious types does not present a problem. However, they can experience difficulties while trying to "mobilize" themselves (it is difficult for them to leave their natural state). Because of this, they often require some kind of stimulus to get mobilized (they are inclined to put themselves in situations where external factors either force them to act or someone else acts for them)
Judicious types tend to divide large tasks into several stages. Then they mobilize to carry out each stage, and in between revert back to their natural relaxed state (small matters they can do in a single push).
They become aware of their state of readiness when they have just begun considering taking action i.e. at the most minimal level or mobilization. They are poorly aware of moment they undertook some decision, often do not remember it.
Judicious types are better aware of the preparatory stage and consider it more valuable (this is the stage of discussion, presenting options, choosing between them, and so on). They invest more time and effort into this stage. Stages when oneself comes to a decision and executes it are as if implied—they are considered less important and given less attention.
In regards to work, Judicious types appreciate a certain level of convenience, freedom, and comfort. Actual place of work (the environment in which they work) they are inclined to evaluate from the point of view of its conditions. Judicious types are not inclined to renounce their conveniences—they are not ready to sacrifice their working conditions for the sake of the results (for instance a monetary reward) "Well I simply can't do without my peace!"
Speech peculiarities: Judicious types describe how and why they came to a certain decision, but do not highlight the moment when they undertook it; in conversations about work they speak of working conditions (convenience, breaks, proximity to their place of residence, and so on)


Decisive

Decisive types will often mobilize before it is really necessary, as if they are subconsciously preparing for accomplishing upcoming tasks; after accomplishing a task Decisive types remain in a state of mobilization for some time afterwards. A state of readiness is their natural state.
It is necessary for Decisive types to stay in their natural sate of mobilization up until the end of an important task—the more effective the mobilization, the more fulfilling their rest will be ("If you don't go to work—you cannot rest")
After completing the necessary task, Decisive types have trouble leaving their state of mobilization (frequently this is expressed by aimless, thoughtless activity). Therefore, Decisive types often require subsequent additional, external stimuli (for instance, they may plan a diversion: "After the test, I will certainly go see a movie") or turn to other people to help them relax and forget about their actual work.
Decisive types are not inclined to divide upcoming large tasks into separate stages. They will instead stay mobilized for the entire duration of the task so that the task could be accomplished as a whole. While the task is still unfinished, they maintain a state of internal readiness.
Decisive types become aware of their own state of mobilization at the moment they make a decision i.e. when the mobilization reaches a sufficiently high level. They are aware of the moment of they undertake a decision and remember it ("I have decided that...").
Decisive types better recognize the stage of their involvement, starting from the moment that they made a decision. They invest more time and effort into carrying out the task, since they consider the actual work to be the most important part. They appreciate far less and are far less aware of the preparation and planning stages than the subsequent decisions and their implementation.
Decisive types are inclined to work for the sake of the result (for example, a reward or bonus). In contrast to the Judicious types, they can renounce their comforts and conveniences for this. They evaluate their place of work by looking at what returns they get for the effort they invested (including monetary rewards).
Speech features: Decisive types underscore the moments of making a decision and in detail speak of stages of its implementation; in conversation about work they speak about its "fruits", decisions and results; in speech the word "money" is often heard.


*Notes*
The radical difference between Judicious and Decisive types is in the development of the cycle "mobilization—activity—relaxation" while performing any difficult, critical task. The concept of "natural state" does not refer to the whole process of existence of an individual—it refers only to a certain point in that cycle. The natural state of Judicious types is relaxation, slackness; the natural state of Decisive types is readiness, mobilization. Both types can distinguish between these states through contrast and clearly differentiate between them. They consciously leave their natural "base" state and "by force" bring themselves into the required state—Judicious types become aware of their state of mobilization, while Decisive types become aware of their state of rest.
*Hypotheses*


For the Decisive sensing types, mobilization has something to do with sensing—it is something physiological, a corporal condition (mobilization for them is perceived as bodily tension). Decisive intuitive types experience (and accordingly describe) a condition of mobilization that likened to internal readiness or inspiration. In a similar fashion, relaxation for Judicious sensing types is a physical sensation/condition—an absence of pressure and stress on the body. Judicious intuitive types primarily feel this certain rhythm, of alternation of opposite states. In other words, relaxation or slackness can be perceived as divergence of attention, while mobilization as focus, as convergence of attention.
Decisive types view decisions they undertook as their own, and circumstances as surrounding factors in making their choice. Judicious frequently view their decisions as something they were compelled or forced to undertake by the circumstances.
Judicious types better than Decisive can distribute their energy and estimate their reserves and expenditures, while Decisive types can maintain a high level of "charge" for prolonged periods of time.
Decisive types prefer following a "campaign" method in work—when it's required (for example, for a large reward) work intensively for days and weeks, but then have time for rest and leisure. For the Judicious types "campaign" method of work is unnatural, they prefer to carry out work in "small portions".
*Extrovert-introvert orientation strengthens the manifestation of this dichotomy: extroversion strengthens Decisiveness and introversion strengthens Judiciousness.*
*Examples*
_Judicious:_ "I don't study the day before a big exam. I go to take a walk, read a little, etc." "I don't purposefully relax, but neither do I stay up until 6 o'clock" "Everything is designed in such a manner that after 10pm all is finished. I spend my evening as usual and why interfere with that?" "If I'm very tired—I just rest however much is necessary" "You should not work long on one problem, postpone it for another time" "Dealing with the moment of making a decision is complicated. It is not kept track of. The stage of preparation and the act of deciding occurs automatically, what happens afterwards is not related to it. Deciding is in itself an action—one can always return to it" "Thinking things over—this is the real work, after which the act of making the decision itself is not given attention. If it is necessary to do something else... I can feel in the back of my mind the circumstances that will force me to do it. I put myself into such situations" "There is a primary selection: is this necessary or not necessary, and from there things develop. The decision is somehow made, but in unconscious manner, and even if it is accepted, that does not mean that I will get around to it." "Consideration is very nice—you still don't need to decide. It's even better if you don't have to anything afterwards." "Before deciding on something, discussions are plentiful, but which decisions are undertaken I cannot keep a track of." "I modeled it in several versions—it is as if virtually I have already done it" "When some task is assigned, I carefully consider it for a long time. There isn't a conclusive moment for me when I finally decide to do something" "The main thing in work is freedom of organization, freedom of choice" "The opportunity to recharge is very important, I don't want to burn out" "I need a comfortable workplace which would be solely mine."
_Decisive:_ "First, lets make a push and do it—then we shall rest" "I feel terribly frustrated when someone tries to distract or engage me before an exam. Why? It messes with my concentration, to put it another way, it messes with my "inspiration"" "Sometimes I get so tired that I can't even sleep from the exhaustion." "I was writing my diploma for there days straight, then I came home and just collapsed." "Making a decision constitutes a separate moment, any doubts and fluctuations take place before that." "I always keep track of what decision I make. Every time I make a decision it's like a burden of responsibilities falls on my shoulders." "I will not get stuck on the process of discussion and consideration... it will be concluded with a decision." "If I decided watch a movie, then I will watch it" "Naturally, I remember when I made that choice" "When a person speaks of something, I perceive it as a signal to action even if it was just a suggestion... The decision to act is just an intermediate stage. If a decision is made, it does not mean that something has been done" "I don't understand—have we decided on something or not?" "Work should be interesting, but payment—that is of course considered." "I work for the money, I don't consider leisure a part of it. I work as much as they pay me."




I think one of the more important aspects is the part I bolded and why this trait is ultimately unreliable to type off. Isn't an introvert usually by default a "slacker"? Indeed, Gulenko points out that the most inert types in the socion are of the IP temperament. When looking for judicious-decisive, what is important then is not to look so much at the application of force or mobilization when it comes to work as an EJ type may for example have a high energy disposal when it comes to work (especially if we speak of say, LSEs for obvious reasons despite being a judicious type), but how work and rest are approached. 

If one is looking at society and social values in a much broader perspective and context, this need for constant production and to be constantly mobilized so one can produce is decidedly driven by Te logic and it is a perfect example of what happens when Fi is completely ignored, as personal needs and desires are entirely overlooked in favor of the need to constantly produce. You literally sell your soul to your company. 

Even when we look at personal comfort at work e.g. breaks and other little things that can be considered recreational or support overall health, these things do not point towards judicious and are in fact in my opinion, poor ways to measure whether someone is a judicious type. One reason why I mistyped as an EII was because I thought I was a judicious type because I do favor having my personal needs met at work meaning I am not going to sit there and work my ass off 8 hours straight having almost no breaks, no time to lunch etc. This is not what Se-mobilization is about. Aside the fact that it points to way over-valued Te logic, this is entirely unrelated to type. Science shows that the human brain can only focus on one task for 45 minutes at a time before you need a break. If one is strictly going to look at what is efficient production then, the human mind needs breaks because each time we do mobilize we do so in a way that is living out our full potential. 

See, this is why I am a decisive type, because when I am going to spend effort to become mobilized I am going to go "all in" and invest "all my energy" in order to finish the task required, so even if I seek to fulfill bodily and mental needs my focus lies on overcoming the task at hand i.e. I focus on the extroverted goal rather than the effect my work has on my body. It's a different focus on energy expenditure. That I need breaks in order to de-mobilize between each task is perfectly in line with decisive, just that each break is a shorter one limited to the policy rules of the company I work for. 

When we speak of force or being forceful in an Se-sense then, it's more about seeking novelty and physical experience. Se is about experiencing the present sensory moment exactly as it is and because it is also extroverted; it wants to enhance the experience to its fullest sensory potential in the moment. Hence the association with Se and hedonism, action and thrill because if you are going to eat an ice-cream, why not try all the tastes? You don't know when you can try them again. This is why Se is described as forceful in the sense that Se-ego types but especially Se-bases, when they operate with their duals with Ni in ego, Ni detaches itself from the sensory by looking at what it could be or mean rather than what it is. Since Se is static each moment is seen as separate from each other and thus are in their own way fleeting, there is a sense of urgency or need for immediate action or the moment will be lost. Hence direct action or force. I think "catch the day" is a good example of Se logic, to not let opportunities to experience something in the present slip. 

An important key factor when separating Se from Si therefore lies in the differences between the fact that Se is static and Si is dynamic. When it comes to work, a decisive type sees only the work here and now and because of Ni being oriented in such a way that it sees a dynamic but archetype impression of the here and now, Se-Ni approaches work in that it sees a holistic impression of the end-result that needs to be overcome in the present. This would explain why the Se-Ni type when being mobilized needs greater downtime maintenance after the task is done, since the moment that required action is now gone. 

Judicious approaches the sensory more in terms of how the sensory affects the body through direct personal experience and wishes to minimize what is not pleasurable while maximizing the pleasurable. It has therefore little to do with actual energy expenditure though Si types do work better over time for this reason, as Si is dynamic.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Great post. So, back to my original question, is pushing your values on other people simply beyond the realm of Si/Se? In other words, is it more of a combination of different factors than something straightforward like merely valuing Si/Se? At least that was the impression I got during the discussion I had with Silveresque and after reading this post.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Great post. So, back to my original question, is pushing your values on other people simply beyond the realm of Si/Se? In other words, is it more of a combination of different factors than something straightforward like merely valuing Si/Se? At least that was the impression I got during the discussion I had with Silveresque and after reading this post.


Wouldn't values be in the realms of judgement, especially Je in that there is a desire to organize the environment by exerting logical influence over it? If we narrow it down to judgement and perception, perception only cares about focusing on the experience of something. Values would be entirely irrelevant to this for most of the part unless we speak about how we can experience values in our environment.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks for writing this. It seems I may be not as clearly judicious as I thought. 

I need to relax before I can mobilize because I have to be in the right mood to get work done, or else it will be painful, inefficient, and unproductive. The actual process of mobilization consists of me deciding I need to do something, and then waiting as I subconsciously mentally prepare. Once I start, I usually do all the work in one sitting. I usually dislike being interrupted or taking breaks while working. I may put off eating for hours until I'm finished with a task. If the work is something I'm intrinsically motivated to do, I can easily disregard physical discomfort and focus on the task or goal. If I'm not intrinsically motivated, I may have difficulty getting and staying mobilized.

Does this seem more judicious or decisive?


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Wouldn't values be in the realms of judgement, especially Je in that there is a desire to organize the environment by exerting logical influence over it? If we narrow it down to judgement and perception, perception only cares about focusing on the experience of something. Values would be entirely irrelevant to this for most of the part unless we speak about how we can experience values in our environment.


True, I was thinking of it more in terms of judging determining the values themselves and Se only having a say in the way of its execution but I think now my logic may be flawed.
Which means that a disposition to press other people the way it is described in the sensing descriptions would be relevant only if it concerns a person's internal bodily state being affected? For example, an LSE would not be inclined to push people physically if he though it would break a person's internal harmony unless it was necessary.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> True, I was thinking of it more in terms of judging determining the values themselves and Se only having a say in the way of its execution but I think now my logic may be flawed.
> Which means that a disposition to press other people the way it is described in the sensing descriptions would be relevant only if it concerns a person's internal bodily state being affected? For example, an LSE would not be inclined to push people physically if he though it would break a person's internal harmony unless it was necessary.


What do you mean by pushing here? Do you mean trying to force their values on people? I think immature and/or unhealthy LxEs could do that, because they are so out of touch with Fi so they seek to impose their Te logic onto everyone which is reinforced by their inferior Fi but it's so unconscious that they don't recognize what is driving them nor do they recognize that other people have Fi needs too. I keep thinking of Dr. Cox from Scrubs as a perfect example of what I mean, despite being exaggerated for the sake of fiction. There's also Tywin Lannister from Game of Thrones who is another good example of a very aggressive LxE.



Silveresque said:


> Thanks for writing this. It seems I may be not as clearly judicious as I thought.
> 
> I need to relax before I can mobilize because I have to be in the right mood to get work done, or else it will be painful, inefficient, and unproductive. The actual process of mobilization consists of me deciding I need to do something, and then waiting as I subconsciously mentally prepare. Once I start, I usually do all the work in one sitting. I usually dislike being interrupted or taking breaks while working. I may put off eating for hours until I'm finished with a task. If the work is something I'm intrinsically motivated to do, I can easily disregard physical discomfort and focus on the task or goal. If I'm not intrinsically motivated, I may have difficulty getting and staying mobilized.
> 
> Does this seem more judicious or decisive?


Not sure. Seems process though. One thing I relate to a lot when it comes to decisive is that when I am done mobilizing, I need to reward myself in some way. I for example always ate Thai food after I wrote an exam, or when I get home from work I always need to play some video games in order to disconnect and be able to relax. If I don't do these minor rituals it feels like I can't quite be at peace.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> Not sure. Seems process though. One thing I relate to a lot when it comes to decisive is that when I am done mobilizing, I need to reward myself in some way. I for example always ate Thai food after I wrote an exam, or when I get home from work I always need to play some video games in order to disconnect and be able to relax. If I don't do these minor rituals it feels like I can't quite be at peace.


I'm trying to figure out whether I relate to what you said, but I'm finding it confusing for some reason. Which might mean that I don't experience what you do, suggesting I'm judicious while you're decisive. 

I play video games when I'm done working too. But I can also relax by simply daydreaming. Or perhaps even doing or thinking nothing at all. If I'm not working I'm relaxing. But sometimes working is relaxing. I play Aion sometimes just to relax and keep myself occupied. And I consider it both work and play because it is a lot of repetitive work to get what I want in the game, which is not really fun. But it's also play because it's work I want to do and I'm not obligated to do it. 

I do tend to spend/waste a lot of time doing nothing both before and after activities. I often take an hour or longer between deciding to watch anime and actually watching it, for example. And the same for between ending an activity and going to bed.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

@ephemereality

Excellent post, it's a dichotomy that I always had trouble applying to myself, especially in the context of those examples you have quoted. When I was in school I would take long breaks but then enter study mode and not leave, it felt like even my breaks were work. I would make deals with myself when I could take breaks, "okay I'm going to finish this much, then I'll eat, then I'll study more until this time, then I'll take a break and do this..." etc. Once I got close to an exam it was like nothing else in the world existed, I didn't want to talk to anyone unless it was about exam material, and only if it was about the same material that I was currently focused on. So when I first read these descriptions it was like "oh yeah i have to be decisive!" but then at the same time I love doing nothing. When I relax I don't want to do anything, I don't want to play games, I don't want to go anywhere, I just don't want to interact. The most I can do is watch, observe, and have conversations. To me, doing nothing is awesome, last weekend I didn't go out and see friends, I just stayed home by myself and it was magnificent, just watched TV shows and messed around on the internet. Then I go to work and do tons of stuff, I get pissed off when people derail work conversations with their personal lives, and at the end of the day I just want to do nothing again. Ultimately I accept that I'm a judicious type because I like to relax, but at the same time I feel drawn towards decisive because I have a good work ethic.

What is your opinion on the idea that decisive types like to mobilize when doing fun things? Like they have to do something to relax? I always assessed that as an extrovert trait. Also, how do you consolidate this with enneagram type 5 fear of over committing to the outside world and energy conservation? It sounds like a judicious fear, but at the same time there are decisive enneagram 5s.


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> What do you mean by pushing here? Do you mean trying to force their values on people? I think immature and/or unhealthy LxEs could do that, because they are so out of touch with Fi so they seek to impose their Te logic onto everyone which is reinforced by their inferior Fi but it's so unconscious that they don't recognize what is driving them nor do they recognize that other people have Fi needs too. I keep thinking of Dr. Cox from Scrubs as a perfect example of what I mean, despite being exaggerated for the sake of fiction. There's also Tywin Lannister from Game of Thrones who is another good example of a very aggressive LxE.


No, I was thinking of doing something that literally affected someone physically like idk, a fitness trainer. Or someone who mobilized a group of people to take action in the moment when that group was in a relaxed state.
What I'm trying to get at is basically the differences between Si and Se valuing types when it comes to either of them forcing their will on other people and the whole agressiveness aspect.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> No, I was thinking of doing something that literally affected someone physically like idk, a fitness trainer. Or someone who mobilized a group of people to take action in the moment when that group was in a relaxed state.
> *What I'm trying to get at is basically the differences between Si and Se valuing types when it comes to either of them forcing their will on other people and the whole agressiveness aspect.*


The decisive quadras are generally more aggressive than the judicious ones. They are also capable of extremely rapid mobilization. For instance, I know a few SEEs and if someone suggests something to them that sounds intriguing or fun they want to try it out *now* and even better if it were yesterday. 

No debating, no deliberation just a ton of energy and a desire to jump into action.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

y u gotta make me question whether I'm decisive all over again @ephemereality


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> I'm trying to figure out whether I relate to what you said, but I'm finding it confusing for some reason. Which might mean that I don't experience what you do, suggesting I'm judicious while you're decisive.
> 
> I play video games when I'm done working too. But I can also relax by simply daydreaming. Or perhaps even doing or thinking nothing at all. If I'm not working I'm relaxing. But sometimes working is relaxing. I play Aion sometimes just to relax and keep myself occupied. And I consider it both work and play because it is a lot of repetitive work to get what I want in the game, which is not really fun. But it's also play because it's work I want to do and I'm not obligated to do it.
> 
> I do tend to spend/waste a lot of time doing nothing both before and after activities. I often take an hour or longer between deciding to watch anime and actually watching it, for example. And the same for between ending an activity and going to bed.


Well, I don't even daydream in the first place so I can't comment on that. I am not sure how I see relaxation myself actually, because when I think about it I am always doing something like I need to fill my time with "stuff". I don't like sitting around on my butt and not knowing wtf to do. Even when that happens my quick solution is to go sleep or something, so I am in a sense still "doing" something. 

I mean, I do like to play video games too but not so much for relaxation or as a recreational activity but because I think it's fun to play. I have done the MMO thing for many years and the grind and while there can be a point where grind gets more work than it is worth because you get too little in return, I don't mind doing it usually, if it serves a greater purpose. What I really dislike is when grinding turns repetitive, when it's a necessary stepping stone in order to accomplish a greater goal. I hated grinding mats for elixirs and pots in WoW when I was hardcore raiding and I was considering installing a bot program at some point just to get it done and over with because it's just a waste of time. I do like working towards goals though.

As for spending time doing nothing, I may be indecisive in that I can often I want to do something but never quite sure what I want to be doing, but as you can see, my overall focus seems to lie on the "doing" and seeking activities to perform, even when I am in a relaxed state. I also do relate to the part where work must be fun. I don't mind doing work or being mobilized as long as it's fun doing so. 



Cellar Door said:


> @ephemereality
> 
> Excellent post, it's a dichotomy that I always had trouble applying to myself, especially in the context of those examples you have quoted. When I was in school I would take long breaks but then enter study mode and not leave, it felt like even my breaks were work. I would make deals with myself when I could take breaks, "okay I'm going to finish this much, then I'll eat, then I'll study more until this time, then I'll take a break and do this..." etc. Once I got close to an exam it was like nothing else in the world existed, I didn't want to talk to anyone unless it was about exam material, and only if it was about the same material that I was currently focused on. So when I first read these descriptions it was like "oh yeah i have to be decisive!" but then at the same time I love doing nothing. When I relax I don't want to do anything, I don't want to play games, I don't want to go anywhere, I just don't want to interact. The most I can do is watch, observe, and have conversations. To me, doing nothing is awesome, last weekend I didn't go out and see friends, I just stayed home by myself and it was magnificent, just watched TV shows and messed around on the internet. Then I go to work and do tons of stuff, I get pissed off when people derail work conversations with their personal lives, and at the end of the day I just want to do nothing again. Ultimately I accept that I'm a judicious type because I like to relax, but at the same time I feel drawn towards decisive because I have a good work ethic.
> 
> What is your opinion on the idea that decisive types like to mobilize when doing fun things? Like they have to do something to relax? I always assessed that as an extrovert trait. Also, how do you consolidate this with enneagram type 5 fear of over committing to the outside world and energy conservation? It sounds like a judicious fear, but at the same time there are decisive enneagram 5s.


Yes, I think this is one of the quadra-specific dichotomies I would not type someone off unless it's very obvious where they fall. Probably much better to look for Se and Si preferences directly then, rather than whether they seem judicious or decisive. Some of the stuff here that you write about just seems to be introversion, for example staying home instead of seeing friends. 

I don't get the whole "doing nothing" though. When I think of judicious and especially alpha, I think of that saying "hakuna matata" from the Lion King film. I think it kind of encapsulates the judicious aspect of alpha quite well. Don't worry, be happy, don't think about the future, only what's comfortable and pleasurable doing in this moment etc. 

As for your questions, as I wrote to Silveresque, I don't get the whole "work cannot be fun" or just sitting around on my arse. I see this in my dad who I am quite sure is an LII-Ti or something (very introverted so difficult to get an idea of his cognition). But the Si manifests in such a way that he likes to sit in his armchair in front of the fireplace with some snacks and a good book. It's this entire focus on the comfort and the atmosphere and stuff. I don't get this, because to me that kind of recreation is a reward for overcoming a period of mobilization. Similarly, I am very sure one of my aunts and her husband are both alpha SFs and when they travel somewhere they tend to seek travel resorts where they don't have to be doing anything quite literally so, aside eating good food and being lazy. Spending an entire time on the beach sunbathing is no problem. I don't get this either because if I am going to go somewhere, there's only so much inactivity I can take before I want to be doing something else or something new. I don't mind spending a day at the beach, but especially if I am traveling to a place I have never been to before I want to explore it. I want to know what it's like, the national food, see the (traditional) buildings, talk to the people, go to the historical stuff etc. 



Pancreatic Pandora said:


> No, I was thinking of doing something that literally affected someone physically like idk, a fitness trainer. Or someone who mobilized a group of people to take action in the moment when that group was in a relaxed state.
> What I'm trying to get at is basically the differences between Si and Se valuing types when it comes to either of them forcing their will on other people and the whole agressiveness aspect.


Hm, well it depends on what the goal is I suppose. I could see an LxE do that I mean, again Dr. Cox? The only quadra I have a harder time seeing being more aggressive like that is alpha because even if I think of ESEs, they tend to be so in tune with people and their Si would seek to not want to disturb the atmosphere like that, but again it depends. I think especially male ESEs may be harsher than female ones due to gender role expectations. I think ESEs can when upset, be very focused on trying to make others upset too or feel what they feel for example. 



Cantarella said:


> y u gotta make me question whether I'm decisive all over again @ephemereality


Because I'm a bad boy.


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## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks for moving the discussion! I really like some of your points here!


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Well, I don't even daydream in the first place so I can't comment on that. I am not sure how I see relaxation myself actually, because when I think about it I am always doing something like I need to fill my time with "stuff". I don't like sitting around on my butt and not knowing wtf to do. Even when that happens my quick solution is to go sleep or something, so I am in a sense still "doing" something.


Btw, that also reminds me of the static vs dynamic dichotomy. One difference that is mentioned in wikisocion is that dynamic types like to fill their time with "stuff" while static types like to do so with space. I'm pretty sure I do that too.
And I do daydream. When I do it's usually in the form of imaginary scenarios in my head. Normally something made me think of it but sometimes I don't even know where they come from.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Btw, that also reminds me of the static vs dynamic dichotomy. One difference that is mentioned in wikisocion is that dynamic types like to fill their time with "stuff" while static types like to do so with space. I'm pretty sure I do that too.
> And I do daydream. When I do it's usually in the form of imaginary scenarios in my head. Normally something made me think of it but sometimes I don't even know where they come from.


That's possible. I don't remember reading such a thing personally.


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## Chest (Apr 14, 2014)

ephemereality said:


> This is why Se is described as forceful in the sense that Se-ego types but especially Se-bases, when they operate with their duals with Ni in ego, Ni detaches itself from the sensory by looking at what it could be or mean rather than what it is.


hmmm



ephemereality said:


> An important key factor when separating Se from Si therefore lies in the differences between the fact that Se is static and Si is dynamic. When it comes to work, a decisive type sees only the work here and now and because of Ni being oriented in such a way


I used to think it was the other way around (Se dynamic and Si static)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Chest said:


> I used to think it was the other way around (Se dynamic and Si static)


No, Se is static. All Pe + Ji = static. Pi + Je = dynamic.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> That's possible. I don't remember reading such a thing personally.


This, I think:



> In general terms, this dichotomy refers to orientation towards either *space* (Static) or *time* (Dynamic). The categories of space and time are vital a priori concepts studied in detail by Immanuel Kant in "Critique of Pure Reason", contrasting them as extent and duration.Statics depend more on space, Dynamics more on time. Filling space with objects characterizes Static behavior, whereas Dynamics saturate time with events. Statics cannot stand empty space—they immediately fill it with available items on hand. Dynamics cannot stand empty time—boredom, stagnation, prolonged states of the same condition. In a certain sense, Statics can be called people of place, Dynamics people of time.



I hate boredom myself, though. :bored: With that said, I guess I don't tend to fill my time with "events".


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Hmm, I avoid filling both time and and space, especially time. I need empty time, and I think I would feel completely overwhelmed if I had to be doing something all the time. And I prefer empty space over filled space, which feels like unnecessary clutter.

I never could figure out the static/dynamic dichotomy. I seem to be in the middle, as I am with nearly every other dichotomy as well.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

Hmm, I believe I relate to both Judicious and Decisive, maybe Decisive more.

I find that I only mobilize once it is absolutely necessary, but I take a very long time to demobilize. The attitude and mindset I had when studying hard (6 hours a day on average) stays with me for a number of days afterwards. My friends, xSFPs, told me that when they came home from their exams they got straight into their relaxing clothes and chilled in bed for the day watching films. Me, on the other hand, well I got back and constantly had this feeling that I had stuff I still needed to do. I also started planning learning French fluently and would set my alarm every single day even though I basically had nothing to wake up to.

During my studying, efficiency would always come first. I would revise while my food was in the microwave, take no breaks, eat quickly, everything was directed towards this one goal. Even the smallest interruption would feel like a disaster, I'd think "I just wasted 30 minutes watching youtube videos, what am I doing!?". I couldn't enjoy breaks, never really felt like I'd done enough to indulge in a reward for my efforts.

Though I don't know how to pace myself and often burn out early, I aspire to be more decisive and stick with the principle of following through with things to the end as more a long-term benefit in developing character even at the expense of a potentially better opportunity.


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