# Are you religious?



## cafstoda

For NT types particularly. What's your view on religion? are you religious in anyway?

In general, I consider myself as agnostic. I have some reasons to believe in greater things maybe not something as massive as a universe creator, the all knowing being. That is too much to imagine because I have a hard time accepting God created us in his imagine and yet we as humans are so little in every aspect of thought. Humans are very corruptive to themselves and others. For what reasons? We would rather gain power for control than place guidance and upheaval for societal benefit. We pruposely separate ourselves by stereotypes, race, religion, culture, region, etc. We continuosly are living our lives protecting ourselves from danger. We need security, locks, and weapons in case of break ins or other such things. This starts from our own family. We create WAR, fear, and distrust. 

We are on "top" above all living things on the planet? Highly unreasonable so it makes it so right for us to consider we are the most intelligent creatures on the planet and yet we are distroying it. Taking up everything and leaving habitats to strive less. I find we see ourselves as this because we are less intinctual than the average animal. I would disagree. I think we are just as animalistic. 

Is there greater purpose? I'm attracted to eastern religion, such as buddhism. Although, I'm mostly surrounded by the Christian religion. Why is it so popular? I think it's so interesting that most people who are actually moral don't associate themselves with a religion.


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## Rushing Wind

Well, I'm not an NT, but I also am very interested in this thread. Personally, I am "religious" in that I believe in the Christian God. I'm curious if NTs have a tendency to be either agnostic or atheistic. So, let's hear it kids. What are you? Those of you who are into science, philosophy or what not, is it easy/difficult for you to think such lofty thoughts that rationalize and explain the world, and then also to hold to a faith that defies "science" and "rational thinking"? Ooo. I'm tingling with curiosity...roud:


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## Trope

cafstoda said:


> For NT types particularly. What's your view on religion? are you religious in anyway?


For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist. However, after much reflection, discussion, and researching of various religious belief systems, I came to a philosophical stance akin to that of an agnostic atheist, and beyond that, an absurdist. Try saying that five times fast. :tongue: Mind you, I only found these labels _after_ adopting such views as my own. 



> Is there greater purpose? I'm attracted to eastern religion, such as buddhism. Although, I'm mostly surrounded by the Christian religion. Why is it so popular? I think it's so interesting that most people who are actually moral don't associate themselves with a religion.


I'm fond of eastern religions, especially certain forms of buddhism, as well. It has a strong sense of itself and teaches that you should only believe if you have reason to believe and that the teachings make sense and work for you, rather than because someone else told you to. Their practitioners aren't widely known for taking part part in holy wars simply because they don't take it upon themselves to forcefully convert the unenlightened to adopt their beliefs. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, there's no reason one can't be a 
Buddhist and a practicing member of just about any other major religion.


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## Kevinaswell

TIME Magazine: The God Gene

I am not religious.

I believe in existence and goodness.

EDIT: They took that article down. Oh well. "God gene" is misleading anyhow.


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## εmptε

*Poly-Agnostic-Theorist

Poly - Multiple
Agnostic - Not Knowing
Theorist - Theory Creator

Basically I'm an agnostic that loves to theorize about possibilities, and multiple beings being in a majority of my theories, because I believe if there is anything then it would have to be multiple, because one being couldn't handle this world.

Don't get me wrong; Just because I include the world Poly doesn't mean all my theories revolve around multiple Gods/Goddesses. That is definitely not the case. I've had Mono theories, and No god theories. My favorite is 'my' evolution theory which is no god, but not atheist. Its that humans are the gods, and will evolve into them. I might write a fantasy short story about this one.

I also don't pretend to know rather any of my theories are true or not. There is no way to test them, yet, thus they're just theories.

There we go  summed up. 
*


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## Kevinaswell

Anyone ever read The Twelfth Planet?


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## Liontiger

I'm spiritual, not religious.


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## DayLightSun

Agnostic
very spiritual roud:
( I don't like religions. I view them as institutions manipulating innocent people).


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## Munchies

cafstoda said:


> For NT types particularly. What's your view on religion? are you religious in anyway?
> 
> In general, I consider myself as agnostic. I have some reasons to believe in greater things maybe not something as massive as a universe creator, the all knowing being. That is too much to imagine because I have a hard time accepting God created us in his imagine and yet we as humans are so little in every aspect of thought. Humans are very corruptive to themselves and others. For what reasons? We would rather gain power for control than place guidance and upheaval for societal benefit. We pruposely separate ourselves by stereotypes, race, religion, culture, region, etc. We continuosly are living our lives protecting ourselves from danger. We need security, locks, and weapons in case of break ins or other such things. This starts from our own family. We create WAR, fear, and distrust.
> 
> We are on "top" above all living things on the planet? Highly unreasonable so it makes it so right for us to consider we are the most intelligent creatures on the planet and yet we are distroying it. Taking up everything and leaving habitats to strive less. I find we see ourselves as this because we are less intinctual than the average animal. I would disagree. I think we are just as animalistic.
> 
> Is there greater purpose? I'm attracted to eastern religion, such as buddhism. Although, I'm mostly surrounded by the Christian religion. Why is it so popular? I think it's so interesting that most people who are actually moral don't associate themselves with a religion.


 NONONONONON
Every religion cancels out every other religion... like, which one is true?

Also for christians the the bible was writin so long ago, so people obviously tampered with it. 

Christians say if you beleivein jesus you go to heaven, if not you go to hell. Impretty sure God is logical in the sense rthat not everyone will of heard the so called good news of jesus, and yet they still go to hell? bullshit, its all just an attempt to make people do the right thing, and follow the commandments, be good people... be sheep. 

Have you ever met a christian? they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies :crazy:


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## Jrquinlisk

I suppose that I could be classified as a "weak agnostic", in that I'm open to the possibility, but I'm not inclined to believe in the existence or non-existence of God. I think Trope had some other term for it in Flashchat once, but it escapes me at the moment.

EDIT Forgot to add this little bit:

I don't really care about other people's religions – or lack thereof – as long as they don't try to evangelize me without my consent. Heck, if a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door, I might even invite them in for some snacks and a chat. I'm not going to drop everything and convert on the spot, though. There's just too many possibilities, and no clear answer on any of them.


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## Rushing Wind

Munchies said:


> NONONONONON
> Every religion cancels out every other religion... like, which one is true?
> 
> Also for christians the the bible was writin so long ago, so people obviously tampered with it.
> 
> Christians say if you beleivein jesus you go to heaven, if not you go to hell. Impretty sure God is logical in the sense rthat not everyone will of heard the so called good news of jesus, and yet they still go to hell? bullshit, its all just an attempt to make people do the right thing, and follow the commandments, be good people... be sheep.
> 
> Have you ever met a christian? they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies :crazy:


You might wanna get out and meet some fun Christians roud:
Christ calls us to be different than the world in that we are to strive to please Him (call it "be good" "obedient" or I'll even accept "follow the commandments" (even though that statement is not technically true). However, just because we are called to be different, that doesn't mean we are called to be "secluded" "crazy" "having no life" "judgmental", or "elitist".

:crying: *sigh* Unfortunately so, many Christians (because we too are human beings) can become any of these from time to time. Sorry you have met Christians who are so unlike their Savior...

_"goody good choire girls"_ -- :crazy:


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## Vasoline

I consider myself agnostic athiest, but I like to learn about Taoist, Confucian, and Buddhist, philosophy. That combined with Existentialism and a tad bit of Nihilism, come to make my philosophy on life, the universe, and everything.


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## cafstoda

DayLightSun said:


> Agnostic
> very spiritual roud:
> ( I don't like religions. I view them as institutions manipulating innocent people).


 
I like this theory a lot. Religion doesn't seem to add up to it's propects. It's made for others in order to guilt trip us into thinking you do have the right to be, but don't. Love your neighbors, but not if they are not under your religion because they are the ones corrupting your thought. You religion fanatics are corrupting my thought leave me in my bubble. This is crazy. LOL. I can't understand that some of the most horrific things are promoted by religion. It seems as if it is the easiest thing to believe for those who believe. None of it makes real sense. It's always blind faith.

It's fascinating to see that in most cases including statements in the MBTI decriptions, NT's are likely to be atheist. I think, because NT's try so hard to make sense of their intuition they are left grounded becuase that's all there is. Though, it is only so little because there is no proof and basically people worship something that's practically not there. They believe so much that it's there and may only feel like it is real. We can decieve ourselves into thinking anything is real. 

If there are origins of a God(s) why doesn't anyone believe in a unicorn or something? It's fantasy, right? Does it make people to become believers because it is safer to think that we are not alone in this universe and yet if an alien came along it might be utter chaos? The aliens for all we can say are probably the devils work. WTF?? I guess it's hard to grasp reality. Although, what is reality? Ugh... it's like we know nothing because there are too many sides. Either one of these conclusions could be true. 

Always wrong....


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## NephilimAzrael

Humanist Agnostic-Atheist..

Without evidence, I will remain skeptical.



Rushing Wind said:


> I am "religious" in that I believe in the Christian God


http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm#our

Atheism
Agnosticism
Humanism


What Science and Reason have to do with religion.. You can read my posts to compose some slight fraction of my opinions. But what Science and Reason does is investigate the world, and obtain information. Whatever claim may be made to the (honestly) inexplicable, are either not fully explained just yet or the explanations are not being accepted by the conflict with people's beliefs. Like anything, Scientific understanding develops to be more sophisticated, progressively. It would seem that many still find solice in a God-of-the-Gaps perspective.. Whilst I myself would like to see how us humans are developing, how things works, how things are improved:
rather than why's or what's - which are just interpretations.

I know I state it a lot on here, but what is observable is a fairer way of investigating what things are, Inference, that can be put to observations once we know what is going on (at least a bit more).. And that is my opinion.. Also happens to be a common theme in science.
Interestingly, this idea reminds me of Zimbardo's Time Perspectives.

YouTube - The Psychology of Time - Philip Zimbardo


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## Kevinaswell

Munchies said:


> *Have you ever met a christian?* they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies :crazy:


Hahahahahaha I thought this was _really funny_ for some reason.


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## imru2

I am a Shintoist who is also a Buddhist. 

I was raised Christian, then went off on my own tangent. I researched several different theories and ideas. I've played the atheist, but refuse to believe in something so absurd as the Big Bang Theory as to how we came into existence. I mean, really? Is that the best cold factual and strictly logical minds could come up with? 

I also believe in evolution, but only within the same species. Meaning, I do not believe that we all started out as tadpoles and eventually learned/grew into human beings. This is kind of preposterous to me and highly self-centered of humans to think, meaning we are currently at the top of evolution and therefor the "best" creature on the planet. I also believe that carbon-dating is highly inaccurate and that Earth might or might not actually be how old we presume to guess it is. 

I believe we are all inter-connected as a species and also as inhabitants of the same ball of dirt and water. I also believe that humans, as well as animals, plants, etc., all have souls. I can kind of understand how possibly the human soul is different than the rest of the souls, that perhaps [human] souls are parts of the Christian God, as stated in the Bible. 

I'm just not so if I agree with the Christian God, rather than dispute that He exists. It is more than obvious to me that there has to be a master creator. How and where he/she/it came from doesn't really matter to me, and I don't understand why people who search and can't find those answers end up saying religious or spiritual beliefs are all bogus. Would it truly make a difference where or how a god came about? If you didn't know who your mother and father were, and there was no prove as to who they were, wouldn't you still know that you had parents? 

I realize that my set of varied beliefs don't readily fall into a strict or single category. I also happen to believe that with my in-depth study of the Christian God and Bible, that He accepts me just the way I am and the way I think. I honestly doubt He would have a problem with any of my other beliefs. I think I'm just very angry with God, to be humble and true, which I'm sure He knows. 

I find it kind of ridiculous that so many people dispute God simply because the Bible is old or that people wrote it. It's kind of insulting really. Imagine you painted a huge canvas picture, but I doubted you could sign your name at the bottom. 

This isn't to say that I take the Bible without salt or that I wholeheartedly believe in everything it says. I think many people read it and misinterpret the point entirely. It's completely believable to me that all of us have been reading the damn thing wrong all these many many years. Would not surprise me in the very least. 

All that being said, I am not a Christian and I think that several hundred (thousand?) people have taken on the names of their religious beliefs and then ruined the ideals they hold dear by acting in very human and selfish manners. 

As Rushing Wind said, there are very bad Christians out there, but I have met some that are very loving, kind, and friendly. The same could easily be said about any religion or spiritual idea. Humans are naturally evil. People tend to give bad names to almost anything we touch... 

Well, I'm sure nobody wants to continue reading all my ideas, beliefs, and theories. lol So now that this little book has reached on long enough, I'll stop. Of course, if anyone does want to talk about them, I'm more than willing to discuss things. ^_^


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## Nightriser

Jrquinlisk said:


> I suppose that I could be classified as a "weak agnostic", in that I'm open to the possibility, but I'm not inclined to believe in the existence or non-existence of God. I think Trope had some other term for it in Flashchat once, but it escapes me at the moment.


I think I'm more of a strong agnostic. 



> I don't really care about other people's religions – or lack thereof – as long as they don't try to evangelize me without my consent. Heck, if a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door, I might even invite them in for some snacks and a chat. I'm not going to drop everything and convert on the spot, though. There's just too many possibilities, and no clear answer on any of them.


I agree with this. I have no problem with others practicing their religions in peace. 



DaylightSun said:


> ( I don't like religions. I view them as institutions manipulating innocent people).


This was why I liked deism, at one point. There is no divine revelation, no central institution dictating an orthodoxy to others. The individual reasons for himself. 



Trope said:


> I'm fond of eastern religions, especially certain forms of buddhism, as well. It has a strong sense of itself and teaches that you should only believe if you have reason to believe and that the teachings make sense and work for you, rather than because someone else told you to. Their practitioners aren't widely known for taking part part in holy wars simply because they don't take it upon themselves to forcefully convert the unenlightened to adopt their beliefs. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, there's no reason one can't be a
> Buddhist and a practicing member of just about any other major religion.


I had an Asian studies professor who claimed to practice both Buddhism and Christianity. I'll have to research those Eastern religions sometime. 

One intriguing religion, IMO, is Gnosticism. From what I understand of it and have discussed with shano, it seems that Jung was quite influenced by Gnosticism. 

Though I don't consider myself religious, I do find it interesting to discuss religious and theological ideas.


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## InvisibleJim

I'm a bit spiritualist as I haven't managed to solve the equation of whats going on inside my head or anyone else's for that matter. I'm completely skeptical about any of the religions out there. I need to prove and solve this problem myself.


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## pianopraze

Liontiger said:


> I'm spiritual, not religious.





DayLightSun said:


> Agnostic
> very spiritual roud:
> ( I don't like religions. I view them as institutions manipulating innocent people).





imru2 said:


> I am a Shintoist who is also a Buddhist.
> 
> I was raised Christian, then went off on my own tangent. I researched several different theories and ideas. ...


I am very Spiritual and believe in God. But I see a unity in most religious traditions including Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hindu, and oddly enough quantum physics.... 

I think religion is a weapon used for enslavement. True Spirituality is love/tolerance. My job is not to judge, it is to love. God is everything, I am part of God; so loving my neighbor IS loving myself IS loving God.


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## Marino

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." - Albert Einstein


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## imru2

pianopraze said:


> I am very Spiritual and believe in God.* But I see a unity in most religious traditions* including Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hindu, and oddly enough quantum physics....
> 
> *I think religion is a weapon used for enslavement. True Spirituality is love/tolerance*. My job is not to judge, it is to love. God is everything, I am part of God; so loving my neighbor IS loving myself IS loving God.


I agree with you. I don't suppose this will make much sense, but I don't view my Shintoist or Buddhist practices as being religion. I seem them both as more of a lifestyle choice honestly. Of course, if you've studied them, you can probably see where I'm coming from since they aren't religions in the sense of having a set god/deity. 

I think religion in and of itself is a man-made concept. God didn't create religion any more so than He created pollution.


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## Marino

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." - Albert Einstein


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## εmptε

*I have nothing more to contribute than a thanks for that picture. It's probably the greatest picture posted on PC.*


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## Harley

I would consider myself agnostic in a general sense. Even though I do not belong to any type of religion or practice some sort of philosophy I love studying both of these things, and I love finding similarities within religions, and making my own conclusions and theories about our existence and the universe.


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## Linesky

@ picture = kind of old school ^^ but mighty 

@ "It's that humans are the gods, and will evolve into them. - Ookami" : reminds me of Hegel somehow.

-----------

(random) "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

-----------

To keep it short:
My thoughts on religion & my own belief system are, let's say, still developping.
I don't wish to impose my belief on others (but I will most likely share when the opportunity arises) nor disregard people for having different beliefs ["live and let live"].
I find it interesting to explore the possibilities and different views but generally I'm not bound to a religion.


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## Kevinaswell

skyline said:


> @ picture = kind of old school ^^ but mighty
> 
> @ "It's that humans are the gods, and will evolve into them. - Ookami" : reminds me of Hegel somehow.


Reminds me of transhumanism.


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## Linesky

Kevinaswell said:


> Reminds me of transhumanism.


olol, that too ^^


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## εmptε

* Yeah, that too  ^~ and I agree that people need god. Most, not all, people need someone to take the blame for them or to guide them. Silly sheep.*


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## imru2

Ookami said:


> * Yeah, that too  ^~ and I agree that people need god. Most, not all, people need someone to take the blame for them or to guide them. Silly sheep.*


I object to this - my varied beliefs in God, spirits, and the like does not stem from a desire to push blame off of myself nor for guidance that I couldn't give to myself. My beliefs are not a crutch.


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## εmptε

*'not all'

:tongue:
*


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## imru2

Ookami said:


> *'not all'
> 
> :tongue:
> *


Sorry, I didn't even see that the first time around. :blushed:


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## teflon

I'm an apathetic agnostic... 
which means that my own religious beliefs don't strike me as relevant, and even less relevant is the religious beliefs of others, and the acceptance that I do not know whether there is a divine force, and if it's even the god or gods that everyone seems to be worshiping...

Of all the things that interest me, and all the things I can find interesting... religion was never one of them. I could never make any sense of it, because I don't think there's much sense to be made from it... The only sense I ever made from it was the fact that it's necessary in order to keep people in line and keep them "doing the right thing" in fear that some almighty god is going to smite them if they step out of line.... and the people who don't use religion usually prefer to use the word "karma"...


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## Bre

> Have you ever met a christian? they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies


 I'm a christian and I'm not a primed goody good two shoes girl, zombie maybe but not mindless. *shrugs*


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## Schattenjaeger

I'm pantheist/atheist and think of religion as one of the worst things mankind did develop.
Causing wars and hate, and teaching people to just believe instead of analyzing.


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## Bre

I understand what you mean. I don't like it either, when it comes to religion and pharasees.There is always going to be that conflict in this world.I do understand where you are coming from though and agree those things shouldn't be. I see mine more as a relationship and journey.


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## cafstoda

If it's so serious... why do church practices involve useless singing and a sermon resembling self-help classes? It's a total psychology. Can you wonder why it's so easy for people to believe? It touches them to the bottom of their hearts. Why? Because it's psychological analysis! How manipulating is that? Add in a magical being in there and you got real omnipotent power. 
Pray that maybe someday I will believe in a God aside from the evidence that it's just a psychology.


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## cafstoda

Sam Harris "The End of Faith"








 
view the rest at youtube.


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## pianopraze

cafstoda said:


> Sam Harris "The End of Faith"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrScXF98tH0
> 
> view the rest at youtube.


Does this mean that he's going to give up is Religion of science to? There is as much or more things taken on faith [theories] that they present as absolute fact... then turn around and refute a few years later.

Faith is faith, we are beings who run on faith. Wither or not you call your religion "science" or "buddhism" or "Christianity" makes no difference....

I love studying all faiths including science, but let's not pretend one is better than the other or that some are not faiths (yoga and science being the worst offenders here)... and yes I study both and like them both!


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## Schattenjaeger

pianopraze said:


> There is as much or more things taken on faith [theories] that they present as absolute fact... then turn around and refute a few years later.


If you interpret new results as 'absolute facts', that's your fault. A good scientist will always be aware of the fact, that his results are just the most accurate trial to describe the world. And that they will or at least might be revised by other scientists.



> I love studying all faiths including science, but let's not pretend one is better than the other or that some are not faiths (yoga and science being the worst offenders here)...


I think 'better' or 'worse' are not the best words to describe that, but as science in opposite to religion integrates the latest knowledge and as this knowledge is constantly reappraised, I'd conclude, that science should be the most appropriate way of describing the world.
Yoga and other religious systems survive due to the fact, that they tell you just to believe the things they tell you, and that questioning them is a sign you are not believing well enough.



> and yes I study both and like them both!


Sorry, but whether you like it or not should not play a role. I do like phantasy books, but that does not make them true.


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## cafstoda

Most major decisions are based on religious attributes. It is pointless to use religion as a way to move society forward because all it brings is chaos because all religions don't agree with each. Another odd thing about religion: if they all say they worship one almighty, why don't they agree with one another? We are not living against each other, we work together, but in this world it's not, it's fantasy just like God. World peace isn't possible. Although it is. 

This is only my view and I don't undermine other people's religions, but when it gets in the way with making decisions as a community it should be left aside on other matters. It can be taken into consideration because most people do believe in some sort of religion, but not necessary. I don't find people wrong to believe in a religion. I just want to see sense in it other than an unreliable faith that is completely skepitcal and contradictory. If I have to have faith to have religion what's it's sense because believing makes things more real than they actually are? Faith doesn't make things true it just makes it true to the believer. It's useless otherwise.


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## pianopraze

Schattenjaeger said:


> If you interpret new results as 'absolute facts', that's your fault. A good scientist will always be aware of the fact, that his results are just the most accurate trial to describe the world. And that they will or at least might be revised by other scientists.


We are in agreement




Schattenjaeger said:


> I think 'better' or 'worse' are not the best words to describe that, but as science in opposite to religion integrates the latest knowledge and as this knowledge is constantly reappraised, I'd conclude, that science should be the most appropriate way of describing the world.


that was "worse offender" in being a religion and pretending it's not.

The cult of science is a hard and fast one. I agree that science SHOULD integrate, but it does not. They have dogma just like any other religion. Just try to go against the grain and you will be excommunicated so fast it will make your head swim! Don't mistake scientific inquiry with the unwritten religion that is "science".... they are two different things :crazy: 

Most faiths will at least admit they are faiths with an agenda....



Schattenjaeger said:


> Yoga and other religious system survive due to the fact, that they tell you, just to believe the things they tell you, and that it's a sign you are not believing well enough.


There will always be religious systems because that is how the human psyche works. Doesn't matter if it is the Clan of the Rat Girl, The Great Gummy Bear on Venus, or Ceiling Cat. People want to belong and believe in something... doesn't seem to matter how idiotic it is or if it contradicts what they plainly see. It has nothing to to with rationality.



Schattenjaeger said:


> Sorry, but whether you like it or not should not play a role. I do like phantasy books, but that does not make them true.


Relevance?

science is just another religion. if you can't see that you delude yourself. a lot of nt's don't seem to see that for some reason, but deny it or not it is true:tongue:

scientific inquiry is totally different from the religion of science. We are in agreement on most things there with slight semantic differences. I think the only thing we are disagreeing on science is a religion, a faith... a system of belief.

Let's look at Websters:


> Main Entry:re·li·gion _noun_ Etymology:Middle English _religioun,_ from Anglo-French _religiun,_ Latin _religion-, religio_ supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from _religare_ to restrain, tie back — more at relyDate:13th century
> 1 a*:* the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of _religion_> b
> (1)*:* the service and worship of God or the supernatural
> (2)*:* commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
> 2*:* a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
> 3_archaic_ *:* scrupulous conformity *:* conscientiousness
> 4*:* a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


Look at definition 4. There you see how science is a religion.

And how many times have you heard "Science says...." Replace "science" with "God" and you begin to see.......:shocked:


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## Schattenjaeger

pianopraze said:


> The cult of science is a hard and fast one. I agree that science SHOULD integrate, but it does not. They have dogma just like any other religion.


And which dogmas are these, for example?



> Just try to go against the grain and you will be excommunicated so fast it will make your head swim!


Well, of course scientists are humans, too, and there are individuals among them, who tend to believe theorys instead of evidence. And yes, the person first suggesting that there might be something like 'jumping genes' was laughed at. BUT although they first didn't want to integrate this persons findings, they just HAD TO, as the experiments were reproducible and further studies confirmed the new theory.



> science is just another religion. if you can't see that you delude yourself. a lot of nt's don't seem to see that for some reason, but deny it or not it is true:tongue:


Well, if it's true, you could bring up some arguments, couldn't you? I'd like you to do this, just repeating your theory does not bring a discussion forward.



> Let's look at Websters:Look at definition 4. There you see how science is a religion.


Do you want to say that it is a belief to take things only serious if you have evidence for it and can reproduce it (excluding all factors which could have manipulated your results)?
Well, of course it's kind of a believe, that, if you e.g. drop a weight of 1 kg from a height of 1m (in an environment containing earths gravity field and without any barriers between the weight and the floor), this weight will hit the floor. But that doesn't make the theory of gravity a religion, as you will just go on 'believing' in this as long as it's reproducible. You wouldn't go on 'believing' if gravity would disappear some day.



> And how many times have you heard "Science says...." Replace "science" with "God" and you begin to see.......:shocked:


Actually I never hear this, though (or because?) I'm studying science. I use to hear 'X showed this and that by doing this and that' or 'this results lead to the conclusion that ...'. And if a scientist uses the phrase you mentioned, he should be able to explain, which theory he was referring to with the word 'science' in this context, and should be able to help you find out, which studies do confirm this theory.


----------



## pianopraze

Schattenjaeger said:


> And if a scientist uses the phrase you mentioned, he should be able to explain, which theory he was referring to with the word 'science' in this context, and should be able to help you find out, which studies do confirm this theory.


blah blah blah... sometimes I forget talking with some of you T's is like banging my head against a wall:crazy:

Talk about strain a gnat and swallow the camel!

You all are INCREDIBLY BRILLIANT at the minutia... but you so often are busy looking at every little point you fail to see the big picture.


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## InvisibleJim

I disagree. I believe there is a core moralism that lies beneath religion. Religion is merely a man made construct placed on top of morality.


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## Schattenjaeger

pianopraze said:


> blah blah blah... sometimes I forget talking with some of you T's is like banging my head against a wall:crazy:


Thanks and the same to you *gg* Just replace 'T' by 'F' ;-)


----------



## pianopraze

InvisibleJim said:


> I disagree. I believe there is a core moralism that lies beneath religion. Religion is merely a man made construct placed on top of morality.


Good point. That would speak to definition one in the dictionary. I agree that the dogma of science-as-a-religion is a-moral. But Yoga [the western version that is going around] would also say it is a-moral and not a religion, but very few other than those that practice yoga would fail to see yoga as a set of beliefs tantamount to a religion. 

Also, to argue the other side of this argument... NOT ALL SCIENTISTS use the science-as-a-religion. Most of these are aware of the fact that many DO use it as a religion. 

My whole point is there are those that do... and many, not all, come from it from the atheistic point of view. They are really trying to overlay atheism on the scientific method... and call it the same thing. 

So if you separate it all out you either have...

1.atheism.
2.scientific method
3.science-as-a-religion

or

1.scientific method
2.science-as-a-religion

and they are mixed in interesting ways. it is obvious when mixed with christianity to form christian science you have:

1.christianity
2.scientific method

when people say "science says" they are ALWAYS espousing a religion... and it has nothing to do with the scientific method. so I agree when SJ says 



> Actually I never hear this, though (or because?) I'm studying science. I use to hear 'X showed this and that by doing this and that' or 'this results lead to the conclusion that ...'. And if a scientist uses the phrase you mentioned, he should be able to explain, which theory he was referring to with the word 'science' in this context, and should be able to help you find out, which studies do confirm this theory.


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## pianopraze

Schattenjaeger said:


> Thanks and the same to you *gg* Just replace 'T' by 'F' ;-)


agreed:laughing:


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## Marino

Yes, I believe in almighty Odin. No one can argue with me because I am right and my holy book tells me so.


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## cafstoda

Marino!
Completely ridiculous! hahaha

I do have reason to believe that science and religion is one in the same. I think if science reaches far enough into their studies they will begin to see more similarities with that of religion. Religion I believe rooted out from science. I guess somewhere inbetween the development of religion they used it against the peoples for control and power. I have mentioned before that religion is some old organized community for manipulation. The difference between science and religion is that religion ignores how and why because it is punishable to question your religion. Read Prov. 3:5-6. Now if someone believes they will follow with all courage, will put all their trust within their God and their book written by their God. Anything can be said, replace it's origins with God and it is true because the believer will be willing. 

I think once you look more into your own religion you will find something more surprising then what you see now. I would hate to see true believers who are scientist only decided to be scientist to look for their God. If that were true they are already doing something that could put themselves in danger with those of the religious organizations. The ones who started religion (remember religious practices are man-made) wouldn't want you to know what they know. I'm only thinking that there is something hidden within religion that is not told to us because we are just supposed to believe.

Zeitgeist, The Movie:
[video=google;-594683847743189197]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197[/video]


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## pianopraze

Marino said:


> Yes, I believe in almighty Odin. No one can argue with me because I am right and my holy book tells me so.


Speaking of someone rooted in the religion of science....

Thank you for illustrating my point Marino:crazy:











psst... don't tell him he's religious... he won't believe you, he's too busy defending his dogma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma


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## themuzicman

Munchies said:


> NONONONONON
> Every religion cancels out every other religion... like, which one is true?
> 
> Also for christians the the bible was writin so long ago, so people obviously tampered with it.
> 
> Christians say if you beleivein jesus you go to heaven, if not you go to hell. Impretty sure God is logical in the sense rthat not everyone will of heard the so called good news of jesus, and yet they still go to hell? bullshit, its all just an attempt to make people do the right thing, and follow the commandments, be good people... be sheep.
> 
> Have you ever met a christian? they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies :crazy:


I didn't know bigotry of this stench still existed.


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## themuzicman

I am unashamedly Christian, although I acknowledge that much of the Western church has appealed to Feelers more than Thinkers.

I think my faith comes more from my Ni than Ti, although they generally are together on this.


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## skycloud86

I'm an Agnostic.


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## cafstoda

skycloud86 said:


> I'm an Agnostic.


Haha I'm Agnostic... do you have anything to elaborate on why you are?



themuzicman said:


> I am unashamedly Christian, although I acknowledge that much of the Western church has appealed to Feelers more than Thinkers.
> 
> I think my faith comes more from my Ni than Ti, although they generally are together on this.


This is the exact reason why I'm so curious about religion, but my thinking is not matching up with my intuition. My intuition believes there is something greater, but the way people practice their religions doesn't appeal to me on my thinking level and it insults my intuition. It won't make sense to me until something comes along that correlates with my intuition, but for now my thinking will not be satisfied with religion as I see it. Religion is reached by far to another extent to which I can't understand.


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## pianopraze

cafstoda said:


> This is the exact reason why I'm so curious about religion, but my thinking is not matching up with my intuition. My intuition believes there is something greater, but the way people practice their religions doesn't appeal to me on my thinking level and it insults my intuition. It won't make sense to me until something comes along that correlates with my intuition, but for now my thinking will not be satisfied with religion as I see it. Religion is reached by far to another extent to which I can't understand.


I'm impressed.

I think both logic and feeling can lead to belief in something greater. 

Religion often leads to control... antithesis of what it is meant to be. And thus is rightly rejected.

No one was there in the beginning... so all we can go on our our feelings, intuitions, and traditions of the humans who proceed us.

I trust nobody and nothing so I evaluate each from myself and see if it fits... if it does I accept it with the corollary that if I find something better [yes very loaded word] I will revamp my views. Thus I do not rush to judge others and accept their views as equal. 

Accept what works, look for overlaps that show greater truths... in the end we can believe whatever we want to believe but there is no way to absolutely know.

I believe in God... feel like I've reached him through both prayer and meditation... it is an intuitive knowing. It is not provable, but it works for me more than not believing. Not believing in the end leads to it's own set of beliefs... quite a catch 22.


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## pluto

cafstoda said:


> This is the exact reason why I'm so curious about religion, but my thinking is not matching up with my intuition. My intuition believes there is something greater, but the way people practice their religions doesn't appeal to me on my thinking level and it insults my intuition. It won't make sense to me until something comes along that correlates with my intuition, but for now my thinking will not be satisfied with religion as I see it. Religion is reached by far to another extent to which I can't understand.


You are quite right, of course. What you are saying makes perfect sense. I have a strong personal faith, but I have exactly the same impressions that you do about the way in which religion is practiced, therefore I have NO involvement whatsoever in organized religion. I'm in the same boat as *themuzicman* and *pianopraze*, and agree with a lot of what they said.

Perhaps the reason I find no conflicts in my thinking and intuition is that I do not associate what I believe with what organized religions are doing or how people practice their spirituality/religion. The two are completely separate in my mind. If you cannot make that distinction, and separate it from what you have observed in humans and the world around you, then yes, you would perceive it as you've described. I usually stay out of these types of discussions. Everyone has a right to believe what they choose. Just adding my two cents.


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## Windette

I'm raised with protestant parents, and sometimes go to church with my mum. However, I prefer to follow the Bible and interpret it in my own way rather than follow the church's interpretation of it. This way I believe in evolution, and have an open mind to all other scientific theories. I look at parts of the Bible's genesis as metaphors for evolution, possibly the big bang, etc. I believe in God as a Trinity, and I often pray. My morals and values come from myself, rarely from my Christianity. Some of my morals and values link with Christianity anyway. I'm not fully sure whether I believe in heaven and/or hell though. I never object to facts or theories because "God doesn't like it". I wouldn't call myself all that religious, because I'm not devoted to it in it's pure form. It depends what your definition of religion is.  I keep quiet about other people's beliefs and respect them because I'm so indecissive about it, and it can be a hurtful debate for some people.


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## banned user

Not anymore though I have respect for people who are religious as long as their heart is in the right place. I respect spirituality though and enjoy studying various religions and their spiritual teachings, though I don't really apply much anymore but whether it is from Solomon's proverbs to the Tao Teh Ching to the Upinashads to Buddhist teachings, I get something from it.


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## skycloud86

cafstoda said:


> Haha I'm Agnostic... do you have anything to elaborate on why you are?.


From what I've heard about god and religion, it seems to me that there is no God, but there also seems to eb a little bit of doubt, that maybe thgere is some sort of higher power that isn't necessarily a god, goddess or pantheon worshipped by an earthly religion.


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## pianopraze

skycloud86 said:


> From what I've heard about god and religion, it seems to me that there is no God, but there also seems to eb a little bit of doubt, that maybe thgere is some sort of higher power that isn't necessarily a god, goddess or pantheon worshipped by an earthly religion.


We'll find out some day, hope it's not like south park...


----------



## Deagalman

Edited .


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## Briggs

I am not religious. I despise religion and anything in the way of legalism for myself. I have my own mind, I do not need any other man to determine how I should believe.

I am a Christian. I have studied the Bible in a non-denom church for many years. I needed to do that myself because my personal direction (fate if you will) is far too important to be left up to the interpretation of others.

I do not live afraid of God, I see Him as my Father. That He has direction and desires for me...though just through the existence of Christ acknowledged I will fail and faulter. He is however firm yet loving and always there for me, unmoved. My rock.
I do not try to break Him down to science/evolution etc. I simply have come to accept this relationship and see it as warm and comforting.


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## DouglasMl

I attend services almost every week at my home church* , and I willingly accept opportunities to play a supporting role in services of worship (such as by reading lessons, serving Communion wine, or leading the Prayers of the People).

You can say that I am somewhere between "moderately religious" and "devout" in the Christian faith as I have come to understand it.



*I'm a member of the Anglican Church of Canada.


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## Cookie Monster

In 2007, after many years as an agnostic, I started regularly attending a non-denominational Christian church on a regular basis. My best friend, who also used to be an agnostic, started going to church and for months and months would talk me into it, and I was adamantly opposed. But I saw all of these good things happening in her life, and I wondered if perhaps there was something to this "Jesus thing." Witnessing my friend's life change before my eyes really was able to open up a relationship with God in a way where I could really understand it on a spiritual level. Several of my dear friends who were Christians would evangelize to me until they were blue in the face, and I loved debates with them, but they were unsuccessful, despite their trying. 

I think the thing that really got me humbled before the Lord was when my friend told me that we are not meant to be dependent on ourselves to fix our life. There is a huge existentialist mentality that is preached by self-help books, yet so many people find themselves unsuccessful. It was then that I broke down into tears because there were so many things in my life that I felt I could just not do alone. I was sick of struggling with things using my own volition. When I look back on what I have accomplished since 2007, I know I could not have done it without God. To me, it is comforting that there is someone (or something) out there that is bigger than this world and all of its problems. 

However, as someone who leans towards the NT side of things...being a Christian is so hard sometimes. A lot of Christians take the Bible literally, and I have a hard time with that. I am always thinking of new ways to look at The Word, and to think of the Word not just as a list of rules, but as something that is living, and can be interpreted in more ways than one. For example...the world really was created in 7 days, but perhaps that is a way to explain God's timetable (which is anything BUT linear) in a more concrete way so that we can understand it. I tend to think of the Bible as allegorical, rather than absolutely literal. After all, Jesus himself used parables to explain to us about the kingdom of heaven, a place not on this earth, so we could understand it. 

I think living a life of faith is another difficult aspect for NTs. I know I tend to be an overanalyzer...I have a very strong J so I like to know exactly what is in front of me. Trusting God is very hard. Some people can just recite scripture and have it act as a mantra of comfort, but I need to understand it on a much deeper level.


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## SeekJess

I'm not really religious.. I believe in God, and I am a Christian.. but I have my doubts, who doesn't? I'm pretty laid back, I have a lot of morals.. that is for sure.


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## shoeless

agnostic. i don't believe in god, but i don't deny the possibility of his existence -- or _some_ kind of "supernatural" (i hate that word but i'm tired and can't think of anything else) force that propels the universe. i'm more inclined to believe in that than i am a big dude in the sky with a magic wand creating things just for shits n' giggles.

i grew up in a christian household (my dad was a freaking chaplain... i'm a chaplain's kid... you know how that goes) but i really don't consider this me being rebellious or anything -- i just can't work my mind into either believing or outright disbelieving in a higher power. however, this has left me feeling rather spiritually unfulfilled and hopeless, and so i thought, hey, why not research spiritual topics!

i'm not looking for a belief system -- i'm just looking for a belief. or _something_. right now i'm looking into buddhism, as well as "astral" stuff -- aura readings, astral projection/out-of-body experiences, et cetera. but i'm approaching it from a logical, scientific background; right now i have a book written by someone who has had an out of body experience but approaches it scientifically, without subscribing to the whole "supernatural" thing (i have the inkling the author is a fellow INTP, or possibly an INTJ, but that could just be me... er... projecting. excuse the pun.)

anyway, i'm sure nobody will actually read this post (hell, i haven't read any in this thread) -- just thought i'd give you my silly opinions. i don't believe there is a "right" answer, and i really don't believe humans will ever really _know_, at least, until we die. our knowledge is so infinitely small, why should we assume that one of our theories has to be correct? but that doesn't mean don't look. it would be silly not to look.


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## Lucretius

shoeless said:


> agnostic. i don't believe in god, but i don't deny the possibility of his existence -- or _some_ kind of "supernatural" (i hate that word but i'm tired and can't think of anything else) force that propels the universe. i'm more inclined to believe in that than i am a big dude in the sky with a magic wand creating things just for shits n' giggles.
> 
> i grew up in a christian household (my dad was a freaking chaplain... i'm a chaplain's kid... you know how that goes) but i really don't consider this me being rebellious or anything -- i just can't work my mind into either believing or outright disbelieving in a higher power. however, this has left me feeling rather spiritually unfulfilled and hopeless, and so i thought, hey, why not research spiritual topics!
> 
> i'm not looking for a belief system -- i'm just looking for a belief. or _something_. right now i'm looking into buddhism, as well as "astral" stuff -- aura readings, astral projection/out-of-body experiences, et cetera. but i'm approaching it from a logical, scientific background; right now i have a book written by someone who has had an out of body experience but approaches it scientifically, without subscribing to the whole "supernatural" thing (i have the inkling the author is a fellow INTP, or possibly an INTJ, but that could just be me... er... projecting. excuse the pun.)
> 
> anyway, i'm sure nobody will actually read this post (hell, i haven't read any in this thread) -- just thought i'd give you my silly opinions. i don't believe there is a "right" answer, and i really don't believe humans will ever really _know_, at least, until we die. our knowledge is so infinitely small, why should we assume that one of our theories has to be correct? but that doesn't mean don't look. it would be silly not to look.


This is actually very similar to where I'm at.
I was a Protestant Christian for the first 19 years of my life, and then recently went through a 'deconversion' process that led to agnosticism. At this point my "living philosophy" is a mix between Stoicism and existentialism, but I am still looking and hoping to find more information about the universe. This has led me to study all kinds of religious and philosophical ideas. 

The search continues.


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## Marino

Azrael said:


> This is actually very similar to where I'm at.
> I was a Protestant Christian for the first 19 years of my life, and then recently went through a 'deconversion' process that led to agnosticism.


You should be proud. Most people are unable to escape the trap of religion. :sad:


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## Aku

> Have you ever met a christian? they are goody good choire girls, and what else could they be to beleive in such a thing... mindless zombies


That's a foolish generalization. I am Christian, and by no means am I a "mindless zombie".

Christianity appeals to people because it gives them a sense of purpose. I initially struggled with the concept of an all-powerful, loving God that made man in his image--in fact, I was repulsed by it. Man, infinitesimally small, in an infinite, expanding universe, cared for and known by an entity that created everything? Laughable. But you must realize it is foolish to relate human comprehension to an understanding of God. We only understand and retain so much. We exist for a mere 70 years, on average. Do you realize what a _pathetic_ number that is? Of those years, approximately 50, perhaps less, are years when your brain is "fully developed"... assuming you do not suffer any mental deterioration as life goes on. With that in mind, humble yourself. Realize some things elude comprehension. That realization is what led me, initially, into Christianity.

I want through an existential phase... then I became agnostic, but I was not satisfied with the idea of evolution, and was further bothered by the fact scientists cannot explain what happened before the Big Bang. 
I was also bothered by what is defined as "truth", whether my perception of reality was just an illusion or not, and whether established "reality" is relative. How does truth arise out of arbitrary forces? Established physical laws out of nothingness? It's too improbable for me.

To make matters worse, I was overwhelmed by the meaninglessness of a life without God. Scoff at me if you want--but I have difficulty opening up to people and a nonverbal, personal relationship with God (Jesus) filled that void. A year ago I couldn't stop thinking about dying, now I look forward to the future. :happy:

I tend to notice people are unnerved by the whole "devotion to God" thing, as they assume it's a mindless submission. But it isn't--it's a choice, and if you were to study the basis for that devotion, it would make a lot more sense.
In a nutshell, Jesus died for our sins--he suffered psychological and physiological torture, and was forsaken by his Father so insignificant human beings could be forgiven and gain entrance into heaven. Let's put this in a more realistic perspective: say you and your friend John are walking in the street. A car swerves onto the sidewalk. John shoves you out of the way and gets hit. He nearly dies. What is your natural response? Thankfulness, I would hope. You'd feel indebted to your friend for saving your life, and you'd try to please him to make up for it. That's similar to Christianity. 

Granted, my acceptance of the religion was reluctant, and for a while I was skeptical of it. I'm still skeptical of it, in fact, and if any Christian pretends they've never questioned their faith, they're a liar. It's a difficult concept to accept and even more difficult to follow through on. It's a shame that a lot of Christians are portrayed poorly by manipulative, hypocritical "church-goers" that view Christianity as a cultural element and not a religion. I frown upon people who judge homosexuals, atheists, etc. They should be accepted and given the freedom to decide what they want to follow through on.

FYI, I don't follow an organized religion. I was raised Catholic, and the rituals/masses/etc were terrible. I just believe in a personal God, and strive to be more like Him--which is the fundamental concept of Christianity.


----------



## Persephone

No, not at all. I consider myself an explicit atheist, albeit a weak one. It's a matter of burden of proof to me. No proof, no belief. I don't require a God for morality, nor do I need him to explain the origin of the universe. There's absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for more evidence, if it ever comes. Until then, I choose disbelief, and there's not much that can sway me, and I suspect, not even a near death experience.


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## Marco Antonio

Spiritual is the right word, at least it is the most accurate expression of my current beliefs:

In Kundalini Yoga we commonly say "God and me, me and god, are one". Since Yoga literally means "union" it represents the action of accepting our existence in a dimension of duality, the union between our finite and infinite self. Approaching from a perspective where god is the infinity of the cosmos and we are an expression of that infinity.
Separation from infinity is commonly named the "maya"; which is the process of involution of the consciousness in different frequencies at which the whole vibrates. For the microcosmos this is clearly and illusion. It is commonly said that the reason of our existence is the need of the cosmos to experience itself. It is said that god is omnipresent, but not omnipotent, since the infinite cannot recreate itself as such. 
And thus everything is constantly experiencing a multilayered reality that is perceived depending on the needs of the whole, such as the photon acting as a particle or a wave depending on the focus, while actually it is both simultaneously. 
roud:


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## intj123

am I religious? well it depends on the standards of who is judging me, I've had people look at me like I'm the anti-christ, and people who called me heavily religious, it's all a matter of their perception. I "pray" most of the time before I eat my meals, I try to have positive energy, not because religious dogma has told me to (I fight that kind of thing that lacks reason and is just based on authority and tradition), but it's because of experience and reasoning that I do these things, check out my youtube vid for the masaru emoto rice hado intention prayer experiment that I did, my username on youtube is intj123 same as here. I recommend reading one of his books, I read "the true power of water".

God?... well again unlike most people who have an image of a human like being when envisioning god, I believe in the possibility of god in a different sense. I guess you can say I think of God as the universe, where all is interconnected by energy and all is one, and we are a part of that. My intuition tells me that love is the secret ingredient to creation. 

I used to have some good chats with dogmatic followers of religion when they visit, like Jehova's witness and mormons. One day the first thing the lady asked me was if I believed in god, and I said maybe, then began explaining the fibonacci sequence/golden ratio and it's relation to nature, and lo and behold she was holding a pamphlet about it, and I think I knew more about it than them, which kind of surprised them I guess. 

But uh, those kind of folk consider me not religious enough, while atheists think I am too religious. So like I said it's a matter of perspective. So like the poster before me has said, I am "spiritual".


on a side note, I think Carl Jung was an INTJ and he was a christian. I don't have anything against most religions, because most of them share the same fundamental principles, they just squabble over insignificant details like catholic and christian the only difference is the role of Mary mother of Jesus, whether she is "holy" or not.

umm well here is my prayer experiment. Don't complain please, just do it yourself if you need proof, I don't feel like debating.


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## Tal

I think the only logical thing to be is an athiest. Empirical science, and nature will never lead anyone who doesn't already believe in God to God. I don't think anything should be taken on faith, hard proof is needed.

Here's a little story, from a Jewish midrash (legend designed to teach a lesson) about Abraham the Patriarch:

Abraham's father Terach was an idol worshipper like most people of his time. He ran a shop that sold idols, where Abraham worked.
One day, Abraham realized the idols were nothing more than wood, stone, and glass, and he smashed them all. Since he was more powerful than they were and could destroy all of them, they couldn't possibly be gods.
Living in a religious world he bagan to seek the real god.
First he tried the sun on for size as it ruled the day and gave life, by it's heat, the growing of crops etc.
Then he noticed that often he could see the moon while it was still daytime, so the sun's rule was not total as the moon also ruled the night, maybe the moon was god.
Anyway, to make a long story short he tried everything through a process of elimanation until he reached his conclusion.
He said, "It must be that the house has no master" (Athiesm).
Immediately God spoke to him and told him, "Leave your country of birth and go to a place I will show you and I will speak with you there".

It was only by speaking directly with God, which has to impart the knowledge that it's God you're talking to, can you know that God exists, and it's something personal. This was good as far as Abraham himself was concerned, but his testimony to the fact would never, and should never be considered proof to anyone who hadn't experienced the same thing for himself. Man made religion starts when others trust the testimony of someone else's personal experience without having had it themselves.

So if God has never actually talked to you, I think athiesm is the only logical path. 

Unless God revealed himself in a way that can be proven based on fact and not faith.


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## Ungweliante

Absolutely. Faith is the only thing that ultimately brings meaning to life.


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## Munchies

i bring meaning to my own life. and btw

god gave me a penis and no contract on how to use it so wts up with tha marriage thing


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## Marco Antonio

True i agree on both things; faith is what gives meaning to life and the only way to build faith is by experiencing god.
That's why Kundalini Yoga isn't a religion, but a series of techniques to acquire empirical wisdom.


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## fractaloverlap

I grew up in a fundamental christian household which believed in the literal truth of the bible. I too believed, at least until I began to realise there were problems in fitting the biblical teachings in with the world I could observe around me and read about.
Gradually I came to realise that the two could not be reconciled. In the end, the more reliable source of truth seemed to me to be the coherency of science rather than the incoherency of the bible.

I guess I never really was religious, or had faith. I jumped ship as soon as I could no longer justify my beliefs rationally.


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## shanoxilt

Ungweliante said:


> Absolutely. Faith is the only thing that ultimately brings meaning to life.


How do you justify that statement?


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## Marino

shanoxilt said:


> How do you justify that statement?


She can't. "Faith" is unjustified belief. Justifying unjustifiable beliefs is impossible, no? :tongue:


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## Marino

shanoxilt said:


> How do you justify that statement?


She can't. "Faith" is unjustified belief. Justifying unjustifiable beliefs is impossible, no? :tongue:

Anyways, as my signature currently says:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty -
it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone,
I am a deeply religious man. 

(*Albert Einstein*)​


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## SouDesuNyan

I'm not religious, but I think most of the major religions contain the truth if we look deep enough. I get along fine with both agnostics/atheists and religious people.


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## Jus

Religion, as I would define it, is a system of beliefs. So, I imagine everyone has some rudimentary form of religion, if they are truly NT's who are trying to understand the world.

I have tried out Darwinism, and find that there is a lot of logic to the theory, but I find contradictions as well. For instance, survival of the fittest makes sense, those that can survive and adapt pass on their genes to the next generation. People have gotten taller, I believe, since our origin. Animals have also changed, such as dogs, due to breeding.

I don't know if I believe in it to the point of an origin theory for species, however. Often, mutations are not easily welcomed. If someone was born with a nub of a third arm, or with feathers, people would not think of him as a potential mate, but rather something to shun, unfortunately. Thus, it seems unlikely (to me) that creatures evolved into the four limbed, tailless, balding creatures we are today.

I would consider myself Christian, though not a conventional one. I was raised in a Christian home, as was an INTJ friend of mine, and we have both been exploring together what we believe to be true about our religion lately.

I've found that it makes most sense to think of God as an entity that exists outside of our Universe. This way, if the biblical account of creation were true, God could have done so 6,000 years ago, but from outside of time, allowing the universe to be billions of years old, as it is observed to be. Much like how J.R.R. Tolkien created Middle Earth 100 years ago, although in the stories it is several thousand years old. In this way, I can believe in multiple "religions," or systems of belief (as defined earlier), without contradiction. I really don't mind evolution or Big Bang theory. I'm even fairly open to Buddhism (or at least the concept of Buddha being an enlightened man, not so much a deity), as it makes sense to me that if the Christian God created the universe, a man would observe that happiness comes from doing things such as being kind to one another and meditating.

I'm also beginning to doubt the existence of a "Holy Trinity." If God was one unphysical entity, existing outside of our reality, he would likely use "avatars," to interact with the physical world, such as the burning bush, pillars of clouds and fire, spirits and Jesus. Thus remaining one single entity, but with many forms, depending on the occasion.


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## cayenne

It's complicated. I don't believe in the propositions that religions usually propagate. But there are non-belief aspects of religion that I really like, and miss in my life. The beauty and awe, the community, the ritual marking of time...how it's a way to organize around something other than capitalism...my family is Catholic, so I can observe these things from afar -- I just wish I could take part in them without having to subscribe to a set of beliefs I find absurd and some politics about women and sexuality that I find offensive. I envy my friends in Reform Judaism because it seems like they get the best of both worlds. I can totally be friends with religious people as long as they don't try to force me to live by their beliefs. 

But I find religion very interesting, and I appreciate its existence in the world when it's not being actively harmful. I like that other people do things that don't make sense to me because it's a challenge to make sense out of them -- to figure out why they do things that might seem crazy. I got a BA in religion for this reason. Once when I was in college some Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking on my door and I had a great conversation with them about how their belief that Jesus isn't God is a totally valid reading of the lack of a particular Greek article in the first verse of the Gospel of John. They had never met someone who knew that who wasn't a Jehovah's Witness and they didn't know what to make of the fact that I liked to think about this but had no interest in believing. I actually considered becoming a postmodernist theologian for a while, I might have if I hadn't gotten into grad school for history.


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## SilasGTBronte

I used to be a devoted Catholic, but started to lose my interest in religion around the age of 18. Although my family did observe a few religious customs and went to church for social events, my family wasn't very religious. At this point in life I consider myself to be agnostic, but practically atheist. I am still open to the idea of a god or superior being, but not necessarily the Christian god. Therefore, I am going to need more than just Bible quotes or quotes from other "holy" books to convince me otherwise.


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## The Proof

I avoid church religiously.


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## 604

This may ruffle some feathers but any man made religion (which means all of them) is foolish. It's literally stupid to think that humans would have that kind of answer. But we're so moronic that we take it a bit further, we don't just have answers, we have very specific answers. We claim to know what god wants and how he operates. We have stories about interacting with the _creator of the fucking universe_ that we pass on as fact. 
There are religions that claim that god sent his son down to us, to Earth, in human form to die for our sins. (Lol?) How anyone can just accept that without question is beyond me. That's like building a massive 50 story 5 star resort and then spending all of your time having a personal relationship with an ant in the corner of the resort's basement. 
Anyone who claims themselves as agnostic I instantly gain respect for. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. What a bunch of bullshit. Even when I was 6 I knew that being on a first name basis with the creator of the universe (if there is one) is dumb. 
Feel free to disagree with me. These are just my thoughts. I am approaching this with very human thoughts because that is all I was given to decipher with. The true answer is probably not compatible with our brains, and cannot be experienced because of it.


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## peter pettishrooms

Was raised Catholic but later discovered that I was agnostic at around 19. I get a little annoyed when people assume that the majority of agnostics are still searching for a religion to belong to when I myself do not care about the status of my religious beliefs. I simply am just not interested in finding a new denomination or religion to get involved with when I'm convinced that I won't buy into the majority of it even if I am open to the idea of a god. I may be outspoken about all the religious hypocrisy that poisons the religious communities around me, but I understand everyone's choice to believe in what they do considering that I did grow up in a strict, religious household. I did get a lot of good things out of the church although most of it should have been common sense anyway. About half of my friends are religious or at least spiritual, and I don't let silly disagreements get in the way.


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