# Why are women so attracted to 50 Shades Of Grey/saying it's actual romance?



## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

So I'm a dude and I read all 3 books out of genuine curiosity. I get the part that it's a fantasy and guys have porn and it's not reflective of their relationship desires etc, but no one can deny porn has a negative effect on the portrayal women and what sex is. There are a lot of studies showing it's not a good thing and that we should try to combat how porn is used in America.

Likewise I don't get why there aren't more feminists being vocal about this book. This is the definition of a very unhealthy relationship. Both Ana and Christian have deep rooted issues. Christian was abused as a child and his need for control is just him compensating. He dominates Ana to find a peace with the lack of control he felt as a child. Ana has had insecurities her whole life and is full of anxiety and self doubt and looks for a powerful figure because she feels she lacks one herself.

These are two people who have a lot of deep seated issues and instead of going to therapy and working out their issues and finding peace with their anxieties, they just have sex with each other. The part that bothers me is that so many people are praising this as actual romance. Like wtf this is a dude who has PTSD and a girl who has an innate anxiety trying to cope with it by using sex. 

Some articles have made me happy though like this one: 
Carey Purcell: Fifty Shades of Feminism - A Response to E. L. James' 'Fifty Shades of Grey'

And saying how it's horrible relationship on both ends. I just wish people would stop glorifying it so much though, and actually talk about how it's a very bad relationship and instead of having sex, tackling their issues first hand is probably better.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

I am a woman but I have no intention of watching the movie or reading the books and have only read snippets here and there about the content. That type of relationship holds zero appeal to me. I am interested in reading the replies you receive because I am also confused as to what the appeal is. From the little bits I've read it is about a women willfully allowing herself to be emotionally, physically and sexually abused as well as completely and totally controlled. I did read one article that said it appeals to women's desire to fix things and that Christian is broken and needs fixed. Glad someone asked the question. I don't find the idea of being abused evenly slightly romantic.


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## theflame (Apr 12, 2014)

What are you talking about? I've read half way through the first book (didn't bother to finish the book) and I couldn't even read the next few books to see if it gets better. A friend recommended it to me and with the press it was getting I decided to check it out. I was disappointed for what it was hyped up to be. Same boring rich guy gets the girl premises in all books and predictable before I read it.

Undiscovered writers are trying to get known and this is the type of stuff that gets the spotlight.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

How did you go through those books? I would rather eat dog poop than to even read the back page/cover of those books. Why would you even do this to yourself?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

I dunno I've always been a genuinely curious and inquisitive person, and I wanted to know the source material fully before forming an opinion


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## Sara Torailles (Dec 14, 2010)

The first thing I heard about 50 Shades of Grey from a woman and a feminist was that it was awful and a bad portrayal of the S&M community. So there is feminist protest. I've complained about the shittiness of Twilight to feminists, and they also agreed with me. Of course, I've known feminists who like Twilight... I honestly don't know why. (I think a relationship test for me would be, "On a scale of 1 to 10, how much does Twilight suck?") I have no intention of reading it, but as someone who likes submission, I think the appeal is in the whole "desire to be violated" a lot of us have. Christian is unstable, but he probably knows what he wants and goes after it, and a dom who can do that is incredibly sexy to quite a few subs.

But it really isn't what a rational sub wants in a relationship. It's much better (in my opinion) to have someone who is the opposite of the Christian Greys as a dom. I'd much rather have a shy dom than an arrogant one, because a shy one would always care about both my pleasure and my consent. An arrogant one has the risk of being too showy, bad in bed, not caring about consent, insensitive, annoying.

As for porn... It's fantasy. I'm not going to care if my partner looks at tentacle shitting dicknipple hentai, as long as it doesn't actually require me to surgically attach tentacles and shitting dicknipples on myself. Most porn doesn't appeal to me, since it's so obviously bad, fake, and centered around the fantasies of mildly pubescent 14-year-old boys. I mostly just like the softcore and/or people masturbating.


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## herinb (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah actually, I was pretty disturbed by all of that too. I tried reading it for the entertainment value in the horrible writing and then also the sex parts, but it was so incomprehensible that the smirk filled condescension and also the sexual excitement were limited :/ and I gave up after something about a fast car.

I think (some) of zee womenz and (some) of zee menz like it because of the sexual stuff, aye? Steamy reading? I agree that serious mental illness shiz seems pretty trivialized in the whole thing, but I also think its kind of cool that something so sexual is being read widely and talked openly about by women...and men too. But yeah, you'd hope that some of that weirdness is being addressed. Hmmmm


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

I believe the fucked-upness is supposed to be part of the appeal. Ana even admits that it's messed up from what I remember... But yeah, it's kind of an unfortunate portrayal of BDSM, and in the end it's also kind of depressing that this is a best-selling book. (Especially since it isn't even very well-written.)


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## The Chameleon (May 23, 2014)

I've never read it, and I sure as hell don't intend on ever reading it. My mom read the first book and insisted that it was shitty. 
Going by what I know about it, I've read better Dangan Ronpa fanfictions and they sure as hell didn't get three bestselling novels. 'Impossibly (Un)Lucky' was great! But I don't think it's ever getting a literary adaption...
But, that's beside the point... And I'm just saying, whole idea of a "red room of pain" creeps me the fuck out anyway.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> These are two people who have a lot of deep seated issues and instead of going to therapy and working out their issues and finding peace with their anxieties, they just have sex with each other. The part that bothers me is that so many people are praising this as actual romance. Like wtf this is a dude who has PTSD and a girl who has an innate anxiety trying to cope with it by using sex.


Well, there are other ways to cope with problems. Sex seems like a decent enough mechanism to me, lol. Therapy is not the magical one size fits all solution for all of humankind. This world is a dangerous place. Some people get off on indulging in that and their anxieties. What does it really mean to find peace in existence? Different paths. Different strokes. For folks.

I haven't read the books but I'll probably see the movie out of curiosity. I think the trailer looks kinda hot. It's entertainment. 






Feminists are _all over _this too, what are you talking about  Women made the phenomenon happen though, so it's sort of ironic...

I'm more a feminist who has faith in the autonomy of the average woman, so if this is what gets so many all hot and bothered, power to them.


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

You know we need feminism when there are women brought up in environments that would teach them to think a book like this is a representation of a healthy relationship.


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

kittenmogu said:


> book like this is a representation of a healthy relationship.


I could be wrong but I don't really think there are many who do think this is a representation of a healthy relationship. 
I am by no means a feminist but I would never embrace a lifestyle like this and I honestly don't know anyone personally who claims to want or who even condones this type of abusive lifestyle.

I am really curious though as to the appeal for some. I am inclined to think that the appeal may be more about curiosity than anything else.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Rubbish. Never read those books in my life never will.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

I didn't read any of the books because I don't bother with hyped garbage but I've read and listened to some dramatic readings of a few passages and it was... bad. Like really really bad. I love being a sub (though not exactly in the BDSM kind of way or any kind of label) and it's so obvious to me that neither parties are stable enough to be in a healthy dom/sub relationship (and the sex was bad too!). I think it became so popular because it's "safe" mom porn and everyone was reading it and people are sheep sometimes (no offense if you loved the books >.< I'm talking about those who do something because "it's popular") which wouldn't bother me if this wasn't treated as the ideal relationship. Like there were articles about how to find a partner like Christian Gray (?) and really misguided BDSM tips. I understand the romanticizing of mutual brokenness and neurosis, I adore Wuthering Heights but... at least I acknowledge that's an extremely abusive kind of bond and I'd never intentionally seek one.

There were a lot of feminist critiques (and some from the BDSM community) and they were really good!
It doesn't surprise me this was originally a Twilight fanfic because those books were just as damaging for young girls.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

They are attracted to it because other women like it and so they like it too. Women tend to like what other women like as an evolutionary mechanism or whatever the term is. Even when it comes to men. Ever wonder why average looking male singers have so many women calling them beautiful? Because other women think so, so they think so. I don't know exactly why women try to be like other women but I do know it has been proven. Perhaps it shortens the gap in differences and so it makes them just as likely as another woman to be selected as a mate?


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## chimeric (Oct 15, 2011)

I haven't read it, so I don't feel I can talk trash about it. However, I'm all for women exploring their sexuality and BDSM being a thing people talk about/know about/explore. From reading the Wikipedia summary of the book, it seems the dom is honest, respectful, direct, etc. Is that inaccurate? Is he abusive?

Edit: Read up a bit online. Apparently he ignores safe words. And stalks her and shit. OK, Christian sucks.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

I agree. Further more, I would like to add that there is a double-standard here. I'm going to generalize a little bit, so get over it now before I start. 

Many women who argue against men and their use of porn pay no mind to women who read erotic literature. Porn gives men ridiculous expectations of their women (I believe that's one of the going arguments), but uhhhhh, romance novels give women unrealistic expectations of their men. So how is it okay for women to read that type of ridiculous shit and indulge in their fantasy world, but it's not okay for men to indulge in theirs? Yeah, double standard much?

I'm starting a debate about this in the debate forum. If you have anything to say to this, respond there.

http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/294786-porn-not-okay-but-erotic-literature.html#post9142378


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

jamaix said:


> I am really curious though as to the appeal for some. I am inclined to think that the appeal may be more about curiosity than anything else.


I think it's the danger - adrenaline makes you feel alive. If you're an anxious person, indulging in that and facing paranoia makes you present. It kicks on a survival instinct. Some people aren't going to be "cured" of their issues - because, you know, we die, and we don't know when or how. He ignores her safe words apparently, so it's BDSM without a trust component, and I get the appeal to that too, honestly. It's exciting in a sick way, because you don't know what to expect. (And I mean, do you ever anyway? Can we fully trust each other? Really facing that is like lifting the veil to consciousness). I've had kinky sex, but I've never been a fan of labeling it, setting up ground rules, etc - I think it takes from the fun and spontaneity.

Then there's the whole getting whisked away into a foreign world bit. Since it started as Twilight fan fic, there's the whole appeal of being an "ordinary" person having the opportunity to adventure into the supernatural, or in this case, just unexpected, and feeling special and chosen within it. Kind of like Dorothy experiencing Oz, with the Wicked Witch as the impetus for her journey, only you're having sex with that danger instead of trying to kill it, lol. That probably speaks to a feminine drive to chill and make peace with the dragon rather than slay it too. To merge with something you can't see yourself in.

Idk. I get it.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Most people aren't going to notice something until its in mainstream media -- so, they only have a few options when it comes to what to like. 

So, you can pick between a turd like 50 shades of gray, or the other various consistencies of feces that are on the market currently..


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## jamaix (Sep 20, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I That probably speaks to a feminine drive to chill and make peace with the dragon rather than slay it too. To merge with something you can't see yourself in.
> 
> Idk. I get it.


I think I get what you're saying. I alluded to the feminine desire to fix broken people in my first post and Christian is definitely from what I've read broken so that is perhaps part of the appeal. Not for me though.


I am more drawn in by sweetness, kindness and over the top extravagant gestures of love. Pain and or torture does not appeal to me.


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## Strayfire (Jun 26, 2010)

For me, consensual BDSM is exciting because I can demonstrate to my partner how much I trust her and there's is something very intimate for me to summon enough trust to sumbit myself to her. It's like an erotic servitude complex thingy.

I enjoy physical pain when it's someone I love that's inflicting it.

SQUEE!

But then again I'm a bit of a weirdo.

Maybe I just like playing the victim idk.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

jamaix said:


> I think I get what you're saying. Doesn't do it for me though. I alluded to the feminine desire to fix broken people in my first post and Christian is definitely from what I've read broken so that is perhaps part of the appeal. Not for me though.


Maybe. I think it's more about the experience than the "fixing" though - especially since he's so foreign to her comfort zone and intimidates her. She seems kind of broken too from what I've read about the series. Sometimes it's more fun to intermingle those pieces than to try to put back together what you have. It's an opportunity for true transformation - which requires the unknown, and usually shakes our notions of good, bad, healthy, unhealthy, etc.


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## Stasis (May 6, 2014)

Romance is subjective. That is precisely how some people find this story to be romantic.

I don't think the reader is supposed to believe that these characters are healthy people (I believe the fact that they are both messed up is part of the appeal?) They are far from it, you don't even have to read all the books to know that. I'm surprised at how upset people are..

I haven't read the books but therapy? Finding inner peace instead of having sex? I thought that was the point of this genre... sex is the point. That's like watching two porn stars attempt to have sex but instead they choose to talk to Dr. Drew about why they are sex addicts (it's no longer porn, is it?).


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Well, there are other ways to cope with problems. Sex seems like a decent enough mechanism to me, lol. Therapy is not the magical one size fits all solution for all of humankind. This world is a dangerous place. Some people get off on indulging in that and their anxieties. What does it really mean to find peace in existence? Different paths. Different strokes. For folks.
> 
> I haven't read the books but I'll probably see the movie out of curiosity. I think the trailer looks kinda hot. It's entertainment.
> 
> ...


I don't really buy that. Especially since saying that there isn't a right way to deal with PTSD means there is no science or a systematic approach to behavioral issues in psychology. I'm a science major myself, went through therapy for 3 years, and have a lot of friends who are in grad school for psychotherapy. The way that sex is dealt in this book is an addiction used as a compensation. This is the same line of mentality for anyone who is indulging in something addictive. Whether it's hoarding, gambling, drinking, it can really extend to anything. You're right people are all different, but behavioral problems do work in a scientific method since our brain is something that has a rhyme and reason to it. The way sex is used is not a healthy thing, and is something that's purely compensation. Christian deals with his PTSD by dominating everything else in his life because he didn't have control when his mom abused him. Ana wants a powerful man figure, because she's full of self doubt. These are a lot more internal issues that something like sex doesn't solve and is used as a placeholder like gambling, or any addiction.

Which is why I don't like the fact this book is being glorified as this perfect romantic relationship. These guys have a lot of deep rooted internal issues, and instead of bringing to attention these guys have a lot of issues they're not confronting, a lot of people are hailing it as a great romantic couple.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> I don't really buy that. Especially since saying that there isn't a right way to deal with PTSD means there is no science or a systematic approach to behavioral issues in psychology. I'm a science major myself, went through therapy for 3 years, and have a lot of friends who are in grad school for psychotherapy. The way that sex is dealt in this book is an addiction used as a compensation. This is the same line of mentality for anyone who is indulging in something addictive. Whether it's hoarding, gambling, drinking, it can really extend to anything. You're right people are all different, but behavioral problems do work in a scientific method since our brain is something that has a rhyme and reason to it. The way sex is used is not a healthy thing, and is something that's purely compensation. Christian deals with his PTSD by dominating everything else in his life because he didn't have control when his mom abused him. Ana wants a powerful man figure, because she's full of self doubt. These are a lot more internal issues that something like sex doesn't solve and is used as a placeholder like gambling, or any addiction.


Couldn't you say that therapy is an addiction? Can't you develop a dependency for time with your therapist?

Define healthy? Is it survival? Is Christian Grey not kicking ass in this arena? Is it an "end" goal? Shouldn't we aim to forever be evolving and transforming? 

What if his PTSD taught him valuable lessons about how the world works? What if it gives him an edge and makes him more cognizant? What if her self doubt makes her empathetic? Is the goal homogenization? They're not debilitated by their disorders. They're working, getting it on, living life.

Everything we do in life is a placeholder until death  

I think that these stories bring to light a lot of our underlying fears. The next dude I go out with could be a shape shifting madman and I could give birth to the anti-Christ (I don't know, I've never been preggers before). That's not _probable_  - but it's not impossible either. Trust is never absolute. At least she knows what she's getting into. He warns her that he's dangerous, she knows that he doesn't respect her safe words - none of this is lying in the sub/unconscious. 

I think it's interesting that they used the apple imagery (Eve, Snow White) a lot in Twilight too. Ultimately, systematic approaches stemmed first from pioneers entering the unknown. Sex, childbirth, love - it's all arguably some of the riskiest territory we can enter. Isn't the appeal of most romance stories that they're a deviation from the traditional path that's been paved before us? That they put the character, and therefore reader, in the pilot seat in determining their fate, following the bliss of their true attractions - no matter how irrational - and experiencing the unknown? Arguably, they're more brave in facing deeply rooted internal issues, because they're doing it of their own accord.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Couldn't you say that therapy is an addiction? Can't you develop a dependency for time with your therapist?
> 
> Define healthy? Is it survival? Is Christian Grey not kicking ass in this arena? Is it an "end" goal? Shouldn't we aim to forever be evolving and transforming?
> 
> ...


No, because many therapists end goal is to have their person be at a state that they don't have to go through therapy. Their internal issues are dealt with and they are able to live a life without the need of therapy and confronting their internal issues. Christian and Ana can't be happy without sex, as shown in book 2 when Ana hits a depression when Christian breaks up with her, and doesn't eat for 5 days. 

That's a huge contrast to what therapy is compared to their addiction towards sex. People who go through therapies end goal is to confront their internal issues and not have them bother them anymore, and feel good about themselves. Christian and Ana can't function unless they're having sex, which is a big difference.


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

Here's an article from a highly respectable and trustworthy site.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't really know what the book is about, I just know it has something to do with bondage?

Either way, a _true_ fetish--which is something that one _has _to do in order to have sex--is merely that person dissociating themselves from the situation. 

It's now not about the connection, and more about the fetish. This is what most people who are in a relationship with someone with a fetish complain about. 

Most of the time, the person simply can't handle the intense and intimate connection, that they need this fetish as a barrier. 

If two people with the same fetish got together, though, this wouldn't be too much of an issue, because they are both are dissociating from the intimacy. 

However, enjoying foreplay from time to time is not the same thing as a true fetish.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> No, because many therapists end goal is to have their person be at a state that they don't have to go through therapy.


So, like, _forever_? The only guarantee of that is if the person stops growth (which requires interface with the unknown) from then on out. Who knows how mom's death might affect them? Watching someone murdered before their eyes? Losing balance for love is part of living a balanced life...

Maybe they're only going because they're really bored. Or lonely. Maybe no one else will unconditionally listen and they just need to vent. Ultimately, we're all just passing the time. 



Nightmaker81 said:


> Their internal issues are dealt with and they are able to live a life without the need of therapy and confronting their internal issues. Christian and Ana can't be happy without sex, as shown in book 2 when Ana hits a depression when Christian breaks up with her, and doesn't eat for 5 days.


I've read books by Tibetan Buddhists that actually suggest fasting if you're going through a particularly trying time. There's no "one" answer.

Can you ever confront _all_ of your internal issues? Isn't it an ongoing process? Jung's shadow theory suggests that the only way to do this anyway is by giving in to the irrational, and relinquishing control of how discoveries and epiphanies are made. So, like living life.



Nightmaker81 said:


> People who go through therapies end goal is to confront their internal issues and not have them bother them anymore, and feel good about themselves.


All the time though? Is it really healthy to feel good about yourself all the time? That's arguably narcissism. Doubt allows for the penetration of the foreign (heyo) which is kind of important to make peace with since adaptability is key to evolution.

Therapy has a place, sure, but I think it's more about spurring movement for the sake of warding off death, personally. Their affair is allowing them both to be alive, so I don't see why they *need* therapy.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Honestly yeah, I've made a post on it before: 
http://personalitycafe.com/general-...ins-will-i-feel-my-mom-gave-me-something.html

I never had this innate desire to be the best or have some desire to accomplish anything. When I worked at my internships and NASA I just did it because it made me happy and I had this constant internal happiness of one day reaching my dreams. It always felt like I had a rush of good things in me and therapy was a huge catalyst.

And I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I really don't think you have any idea how therapy works. Your brain works on stress levels, and therapies goal is to actually strengthen it. That's how I felt these past 3 years. I've still faced a lot of hardships paying for school on my own and going forward, but to me it's really not that big of a deal. And that's the beauty of therapy, you learn to associate with the positives all the time and be at a healthy state, and be better prepared when life throws curve balls.

Which I think is completely different to what Christian and Ana have, which is an addiction they can't survive without. Which is definitely not something healthy.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Which is why I brought this up. I had an abusive father and faced a lot of the same questions Christian faced. I see Christian as someone I could become if I ended up going down the path of never confronting my issues. It's a path of never feeling fulfilled, never feeling happy, and never actually feeling like you're in control, so you just constantly control things in hope your childhood trauma will go away. It's a very empty path, and it's something that never leads to happiness in the end.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Honestly yeah, I've made a post on it before:
> http://personalitycafe.com/general-...ins-will-i-feel-my-mom-gave-me-something.html
> 
> I never had this innate desire to be the best or have some desire to accomplish anything. When I worked at my internships and NASA I just did it because it made me happy and I had this constant internal happiness of one day reaching my dreams. It always felt like I had a rush of good things in me and therapy was a huge catalyst.
> ...


I know exactly how therapy works. I went for years. I gained weight, lost my fighting spirit, lost the ability to form _personal _opinions to an extent, and became kinda annoyingly self-righteous. I threw it out, gave into some risky behavior if it felt worth it, issues I wasn't aware I even freaking had came to the surface (that rabbit hole is deeeeep - I don't know if some of what I've run into is even mine, felt like I was tapping into the collective unconscious at times) and I felt alive again in a world of possibility. Final destination to me implies death. I've always been highly adaptable too, honestly, it was only when I went on this quest for "right" that some of that fell away from me. I stopped trusting my own instincts.

They couldn't survive? Are you sure?  Do the books end in mutual death?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I know exactly how therapy works. I went for years. I gained weight, lost my fighting spirit, lost the ability to form _personal _opinions to an extent, and became kinda annoyingly self-righteous. I threw it out, gave into some risky behavior if it felt worth it, issues I wasn't aware I even freaking had came to the surface (that rabbit hole is deeeeep - I don't know if some of what I've run into is even mine, felt like I was tapping into the collective unconscious at times) and I felt alive again in a world of possibility. Final destination to me implies death. I've always been highly adaptable too, honestly, it was only when I went on this quest for "right" that some of that fell away from me. I stopped trusting my own instincts.
> 
> They couldn't survive? Are you sure?  Do the books end in mutual death?


It sounds to me you had a bad therapy experience, and it's not conclusive reflection for what therapy really is. I went through 6 therapists before I finally found one that clicked with me in college. But that's just the nature of humans, we're very complex, and finding a therapist that finally gets you is hard, but once it's done, the full theory behind therapy and how the mind works takes its effect.

And after 5 other therapists, I finally found someone who was able to rewire my brain. Make me feel constantly good. Ana and Christian are living a life where really it's unrealistic. What if Christian or Ana dies? What if they no longer can have sex, what if there is some other condition that makes them not be together. So what will Ana do? Starve for another week in hoping Christian comes back.

That's what therapy is and the end goal of it. You face hardships all the time in life, but you're not addicted to any highs. You feel a sense of fulfillment and acceptance that life will throw curveballs, but you can take them and still be happy.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> It sounds to me you had a bad therapy experience, and it's not conclusive reflection for what therapy really is. I went through 6 therapists before I finally found one that clicked with me in college. But that's just the nature of humans, we're very complex, and finding a therapist that finally gets you is hard, but once it's done, the full theory behind therapy and how the mind works takes its effect.
> 
> And after 5 other therapists, I finally found someone who was able to rewire my brain. Make me feel constantly good. Ana and Christian are living a life where really it's unrealistic. What if Christian or Ana dies? What if they no longer can have sex, what if there is some other condition that makes them not be together. So what will Ana do? Starve for another week in hoping Christian comes back.
> 
> That's what therapy is and the end goal of it. You face hardships all the time in life, but you're not addicted to any highs. You feel a sense of fulfillment and acceptance that life will throw curveballs, but you can take them and still be happy.


It was just really meh and I've found better ways to work through issues. It's not for everyone. Timing is probably important too and it felt like I was forcing it. I'm not interested in someone else rewiring my brain either. I'd rather do it myself. Or, have sex with them and let the chemistry rewire my brain however it will  It's all kind of random, right? I mean, if someone else does it for you in a calculated way, they're still just wiring it to their version of "correct". I really don't believe in perpetual happiness. I'm a pretty joyful person overall, I'd say, but I definitely have a melancholic streak and I appreciate it. It grounds me in remembering that negativity allows life to hold weight. Otherwise it feels like nothing matters, I give way to nihilism, which gives way to hedonism, and then damn Christian Grey. You seem like an interesting way to pass the time. Maybe he was more of a spiritual experience for her though. Having sex with a powerful man is a way to confront an inferiority complex, no?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> It was just really meh and I've found better ways to work through issues. It's not for everyone. Timing is probably important too and it felt like I was forcing it. I'm not interested in someone else rewiring my brain either. I'd rather do it myself. Or, have sex with them and let the chemistry rewire my brain however it will  It's all kind of random, right? I mean, if someone else does it for you in a calculated way, they're still just wiring it to their version of "correct". I really don't believe in perpetual happiness. I'm a pretty joyful person overall, I'd say, but I definitely have a melancholic streak and I appreciate it. It grounds me in remembering that negativity allows life to hold weight. Otherwise it feels like nothing matters, I give way to nihilism, which gives way to hedonism, and then damn Christian Grey. You seem like an interesting way to pass the time. Maybe he was more of a spiritual experience for her though. Having sex with a powerful man is a way to confront an inferiority complex, no?



It is but it doesn't solve anything. It's like any addiction. Once Ana or Christian no longer have their relationship they won't have anything as a sense of fulfillment. It's pretty much a huge case of withdrawal after getting a mass amounts of high.

Which is why I really don't like this book. Your brain does have a rhyme and reason and there is a lot of correlation studies with psychology and finding ways to keep the brain healthy. To me Christian is doing what I would have done if I didn't face my issues, and Ana is indulging with her own issues. Once that connection is gone, it's going to be devastating, ANa already experienced it by starving herself until Christian accepted her back, which is not a great way to live life.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> What if Christian or Ana dies? What if they no longer can have sex, what if there is some other condition that makes them not be together. So what will Ana do? Starve for another week in hoping Christian comes back.


That's the beauty. What if? Being all in. Surprising yourself in either finding a way to cope or not. That's some real self discovery there.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> That's the beauty. What if? Being all in. Surprising yourself in either finding a way to cope or not. That's some real self discovery there.


That's an awful way to look at things, and I'm going to be honest with that. Why not do cocaine and get addicted for that high, and see if you can recover. Maybe hoarding, maybe gambling, hell maybe even serial killing.

Or why not just circumvent that and confront the fact you were abused. Find out what's really bothering you and get that sense of fulfillment you lost, or you feel you don't have. Yeah I'm adamant on that being a healthier way to live, because I've seen it myself, and see the wonders of psychology and psychotherapy have results like that. Ana and Christian are just ignoring their issues, and not facing them head on. It's a fictional story, but if it were to happen in real life, it would not be a life that would end well once they lose that high.


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## skyrimorchestra (Jul 23, 2014)

To be honest I've never known anyone in actual real life who says that _50 Shades_ is a good book. But as for the reason why people probably do get something out of it, it has to do with the fact that it's got _just enough_ D/S in it to seem attractive to new readers. The trap, though, is that readers of that book think that is normal and healthy D/S, but it's not. Christian doesn't respect (_or even delineate_) Ana's hard limits, there is _zero_ aftercare, and there's a lot of risk involved as well. (_Never_ tie someone up and leave them alone!!!!)

It just wasn't researched well at all. There was a lot of headspace there (dom & sub) but none of the really important pieces that differentiate a healthy D/S relationship from an abusive relationship. As well, OP mentions that Christian has a lot of issues with his past which he's trying to work out sexually, and normally that's a very powerful motivator for getting involved in kink, but if you're not in a self-aware place where you can understand what's going on or why or acknowledge yourself, kink is not the place to jump off the deep end, especially as a dom.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> It is but it doesn't solve anything. It's like any addiction. Once Ana or Christian no longer have their relationship they won't have anything as a sense of fulfillment. It's pretty much a huge case of withdrawal after getting a mass amounts of high.


Highs and lows make music. Does white noise solve anything? Most innovators within the history of society probably wouldn't think so.












Nightmaker81 said:


> Once that connection is gone, it's going to be devastating, ANa already experienced it by starving herself until Christian accepted her back, which is not a great way to live life.


Well that's your opinion. Mine is that a life where nothing has the potential to be devastating is somewhat tragic because there's a lack of depth to the commitments and desires of humanity.



Nightmaker81 said:


> That's an awful way to look at things, and I'm going to be honest with that. Why not do cocaine and get addicted for that high, and see if you can recover. Maybe hoarding, maybe gambling, hell maybe even serial killing.


Why not? What are the stakes? What's the reward? I'd shy away from the serial killing bit, but there are sickos out there who will do it in the name of science. A lot of discoveries have been made as a result of torture and abuse, actually.

Shows like Fear Factor gained popularity due to a drive to legitimately test ourselves.



Nightmaker81 said:


> Or why not just circumvent that and confront the fact you were abused. Find out what's really bothering you and get that sense of fulfillment you lost, or you feel you don't have. Yeah I'm adamant on that being a healthier way to live, because I've seen it myself, and see the wonders of psychology and psychotherapy have results like that. Ana and Christian are just ignoring their issues, and not facing them head on. It's a fictional story, but if it were to happen in real life, it would not be a life that would end well once they lose that high.


They are facing them head on though, like I've said. They're just doing so in what you view to be an impermanent way. That's life though. Impermanence. Sure, it ends badly, they work through it, then they look for something else with hope and faith. Is it better to always settle for safe mediocrity?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Why do you keep equating good mental health and not being addicted to mediocrity.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Why do you keep equating good mental health and not being addicted to mediocrity.


Because good mental health is subjective, and given what you've equated it with, that's what it sounds like to me. Always go with safe. Explore issues in a controlled environment. Heed the warnings of the brave before you. Beware of unchartered territory. If a high means a potential low, steer clear. 

I don't agree with it.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Because good mental health is subjective, and given what you've equated it with, that's what it sounds like to me. Always go with safe. Explore issues in a controlled environment. Heed the warnings of the brave before you. Beware of unchartered territory. If a high means a potential low, steer clear.
> 
> I don't agree with it.


So the only way to fully live life is to get addicted to something like sex or cocaine


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> So the only way to fully live life is to get addicted to something like sex or cocaine


*An arguably healthy* way to fully live life is to get addicted to something like sex or cocaine

I fixed it for you 

Aren't you addicted to oxygen? Water? Vitamin C? Sleep?

I mean...that is a part of life.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> *An arguably healthy* way to fully live life is to get addicted to something like sex or cocaine
> 
> I fixed it for you
> 
> ...


No, they're things I need to live and is all universal to all humans. Cocaine isn't universal to humans. If you want me to be honest I think you see a lot of yourself in Ana and Christian and are trying to rationalize because saying Ana and Christian's lifestyle is unhealthy maybe admitting that your lifestyle is also unhealthy. This argument is going nowhere, but I will say that there is a lot of science with therapy and psychoanalysis. Therapy if worked fully well, gives you a sense of peace and not a desire to keep getting a high because you feel calm and assured in the end. It's why doctors push for therapy and the top researchers in psychology are trying to make advances in it along with medicine. There's a lot of science and proven cases with this. If you want to say that this is something mediocre, then I can't stop you, but you are arguing with decades of research. In the end I do think you're defending Ana and Christian and saying it's a good way to deal with it, because you've faced the same question yourself except a bit modified.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> If you want me to be honest I think you see a lot of yourself in Ana and Christian and are trying to rationalize because saying Ana and Christian's lifestyle is unhealthy maybe admitting that your lifestyle is also unhealthy.


Not really. I haven't even read the books, I just know enough about them. You were the one who said that you saw yourself as turning into Christian if not for therapy, so I'm thinking there's probably more projection and rationalization on your end. ("Good thing I didn't go down that road! I am righteous.")



Nightmaker81 said:


> No, they're things I need to live


Well, I need highs to feel alive. Not like I'm comfortably existing (cue existentialist crisis unless I dumb down my brain and consciousness by massive degrees - and I've tried), but alive.



Nightmaker81 said:


> This argument is going nowhere, but I will say that there is a lot of science with therapy and psychoanalysis. Therapy if worked fully well, gives you a sense of peace and not a desire to keep getting a high because you feel calm and assured in the end.


I will never fully feel calm in a world where I could be tortured for years or brutally murdered without guarantee of the opposite, and I like it that way. It keeps me feeling as if I'm awake and wanting to strive for progress preventatively, which gives me purpose. Indulging in fears keeps me sane.



Nightmaker81 said:


> In the end I do think you're defending Ana and Christian and saying it's a good way to deal with it, because you've faced the same question yourself except a bit modified.


Yup. Jung's theories are what jived with me, pulled me out of depression, and resurrected the creativity that's always been an inherent part of who I feel I am. They've been pushed to the wayside a bit, but they're what I (and others) believe in. I think there's a universality here as well that could be explored, but the problem is that it belongs more to the metaphysical realm.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Not really. I haven't even read the books, I just know enough about them. You were the one who said that you saw yourself as turning into Christian if not for therapy, so I'm thinking there's probably more projection and rationalization on your end. ("Good thing I didn't go down that road! I am righteous.")
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My dream is to become an astronaut and I posted in this topic of how I can release endorphines and dopamine really easily. 
http://personalitycafe.com/general-...ins-will-i-feel-my-mom-gave-me-something.html

When I worked at NASA I felt that huge rush of becoming one step closer to my dream. I mean it's NASA I'd say that's some pretty exciting shit. You're always assuming I'm living some dull boring life. I'm not, I'm just not addicted to finding a rush because I feel self affirmed. It's a constant feeling of feeling good, and not using drugs, sex, or any other medium to give me an artificial high. And really that was the result of therapy. Constantly feeling good and at ease and knowing my dreams are possible, and being very optimistic about the future. 

It's different because when I face tragedy, I don't regress to my older state, and I faced some pretty crappy stuff. Ana and Christian immediately lose their will to function once the sex stopped, and it's not surprising, that's everything that an addiction withdrawal entails. Once you lose that alcohol, that drug, that porn, that gambling, whatever, you get some really negative effects back. That's why therapy works so well and is pushed for by mental health professionals as opposed to having a lot of sex or hitting drugs. 

I really feel you don't understand therapy, but you're really not trying to listen what it is or how it works. Your experience was a crappy one, but that doesn't entail what the theory behind psychotherapy is and why it's used to heal a person instead of an addiction.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> When I worked at NASA I felt that huge rush of becoming one step closer to my dream. I mean it's NASA I'd say that's some pretty exciting shit. You're always assuming I'm living some dull boring life. I'm not, I'm just not addicted to finding a rush because I feel self affirmed. It's a constant feeling of feeling good, and not using drugs, sex, or any other medium to give me an artificial high.


How is becoming an astronaut to create a high any less artificial than using drugs, sex or any other medium? It's not. It just requires more work, and is therefore more highly esteemed within society in terms of worth.

You're living in the ghetto with a .01% chance of ever going to space. Go! What now? 

Or - No one's ever gone to space before and being the pioneer might mean rape by vampire, we're not sure. Again, what now?



Nightmaker81 said:


> I really feel you don't understand therapy, but you're really not trying to listen what it is or how it works. You're experience was a crappy one, but that doesn't entail what the theory behind psychotherapy is and why it's used to heal a person instead of an addiction.


I do understand it. I'm listening, but what I'm listening to is honestly just an opinion and I have my own. I'm glad it helped you to move forward, but it made me regress. That might have been it's own gift, however. The *process* of therapy too, I'll stand by this, is just as much an addiction as a relationship. You come out of it eventually, sure, but you often do with relationships too. Or maybe not. There are some people who see therapists for life. And some who fall into patterns with partners for life. It's all just ultimately life.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> How is becoming an astronaut to create a high any less artificial than using drugs, sex or any other medium? It's not. It just requires more work, and is therefore more highly esteemed within society in terms of worth and "esteem".
> 
> You're living in the ghetto with a .01% chance of ever going to space. Go! What now?
> 
> ...


Because even if I don't become an astronaut I know I damn sure tried and still feel good. Once a person loses their addiction they lose themselves without proper care. 

I'm saying there is science behind this, and in psychotherapy you don't use addictions to solve a problem. And that's really what Ana and Christian are, a very big addiction to each other and a very unhealthy relationship. Which brings me to my original point, I don't like this movie/book being glorified because it treats a lot of serious issues like PTSD as something that can be treated with an addiction like sex, which isn't the right way at all.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Because even if I don't become an astronaut I know I damn sure tried and still feel good. Once a person loses their addiction they lose themselves without proper care.
> 
> I'm saying there is science behind this, and in psychotherapy you don't use addictions to solve a problem. And that's really what Ana and Christian are, a very big addiction to each other and a very unhealthy relationship. Which brings me to my original point, I don't like this movie/book being glorified because it treats a lot of serious issues like PTSD as something that can be treated with an addiction like sex, which isn't the right way at all.


"Right" is subjective, first of all. I swear psychotherapy is becoming the new evangelism.

So say you do become an astronaut. It was amazzzinnngggg. Nothing else in life comes close. Do you live in the glory days, tell your stories with a weathered smile, close the book, or do you seek out similar experiences and feels?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> "Right" is subjective, first of all. I swear psychotherapy is becoming the new evangelism.
> 
> So say you do become an astronaut. It was amazzzinnngggg. Nothing else in life comes close. Do you live in the glory days, tell your stories with your weathered smile, close the book, or do you seek out similar experiences and feels?


Psychotherapy has loads of science and research behind it. Like you're trying to argue if F=MA is false just because you don't want it to be accurate even though we have a ton of equations showing it is. If you want I can find a lot of articles and research on it.

And I do neither. If I become an astronaut, I become extremely thankful and lucky I got the chance. Once I come down, I feel satisfied that I got my dream, and there's still a lot more life to live. This was my life goal and I accomplished it, so really the only feelings I'll feel is feeling at peace and gratitude that I got the chance.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Psychotherapy has loads of science and research behind it. Like you're trying to argue if F=MA is false just because you don't want it to be accurate even though we have a ton of equations showing it is. If you want I can find a lot of articles and research on it.
> 
> And I do neither. If I become an astronaut, I become extremely thankful and lucky I got the chance. Once I come down, I feel satisfied that I got my dream, and there's still a lot more life to live. This was my life goal and I accomplished it, so really the only feelings I'll feel is feeling at peace and gratitude that I got the chance.


So once you accomplish your life goal you're done with life goals and content with "peace"? Okay. That's what I was asking. I'd like to think mine could be infinite.

I'm not saying psychotherapy can't be accurate, I'm just saying it doesn't _have_ to be. Also, again, I'm more in line with the Jungian thought process here. Alchemy, confronting archetypes, etc. If someone is so foreign to me that they seem more archetypal than human, I see a case study as the best way to explore them (and as an extension, assuming interconnectedness - me). Especially if sex is involved. Yay.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Veggie said:


> So once you accomplish your life goal you're done with life goals and content with "peace"? Okay. That's what I was asking. I'd like to think mine could be infinite.
> 
> I'm not saying psychotherapy can't be accurate, I'm just saying it doesn't _have_ to be. Also, again, I'm more in line with the Jungian thought process here. Alchemy, confronting archetypes, etc. If someone is so foreign to me that they seem more archetypal than human, I see a case study as the best way to explore them (and as an extension, assuming interconnectedness - me). Especially if sex is involved. Yay.


Yeah well I'm saying there is a ton of science behind therapy and denying this as a theory, you might as well deny gravity as a theory(it's actually not scientific law) so likewise gravity doesn't have to exist, but that's absolutely fucking ridiculous. There's a science behind the brain and how it works and I mean tons. There are tons and tons of articles why an addiction is a bad thing, whether it's sex and why what Ana and Christian are doing is very unhealthy. There are tons of showing why therapy is a great thing. You didn't reach some form of enlightenment that have beaten millions of researchers for several decades. You just don't want to change your actual viewpoint.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> You just don't want to change your actual viewpoint.


Neither do you. (Why did you even start this thread?) Viewpoints are good to have. So are opinions. They allow us to move forward in a given direction so that we aren't all aimless nihilists or sheep.



Nightmaker81 said:


> You didn't reach some form of enlightenment that have beaten millions of researchers for several decades.


How do you know?  I'm actually pretty versed in this stuff too, honestly.



Nightmaker81 said:


> Yeah well I'm saying there is a ton of science behind therapy and denying this as a theory, you might as well deny gravity as a theory(it's actually not scientific law) so likewise gravity doesn't have to exist


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

My daughter read a passage out of it to show me why I shouldn't read it. It's not masterpiece writing. I guess that the book is good for one thing and that is broadening minds on a mass level to other unhealthy relationships which aren't the 'norm'.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Because you're exactly what I'm talking about. There are tons of and tons of research and people who have PhDs saying addiction is a bad thing and why therapy is the best way to heal. This literally feels like Galileo saying the earth revolves around the sun but naw brah fuck the actual evidence, my opinion is everything revolves around the earth.

It's frustrating because people have spend decades and getting PhDs to get target unhealthy relationships like Ana and Christian, and you're arrogantly presuming that all that stuff is wrong because you have your own opinion. Like seriously do you have a degree in psychology or anything near the graduate level. I know I don't either, but I can find tons of people who do and say that this is an unhealthy relationship.

Which is why I created this thread. This is an unhealthy relationship and people are saying it's some kind of romantic adventure and glorifying it. It can influence people and instead of them getting actual help, they're going to indulge in this. I mean fuck we haven't proven exorcisms don't work, might as well use them on schizophrenic patients who say they are seeing demons.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Because you're exactly what I'm talking about. There are tons of and tons of research and people who have PhDs saying addiction is a bad thing and why therapy is the best way to heal. This literally feels like Galileo saying the earth revolves around the sun but naw brah fuck the actual evidence, my opinion is everything revolves around the earth.


I posted those videos because the unhealthy relationship presented was the chick's relationship with gravity itself. The empowering one was the witch's with her own potential, autonomy and possibility. If no one ever said fuck the evidence, we wouldn't make new discoveries. Like you understand that, right? ....



Nightmaker81 said:


> It's frustrating because people have spend decades and getting PhDs to get target unhealthy relationships like Ana and Christian, and you're arrogantly presuming that all that stuff is wrong because you have your own opinion. Like seriously do you have a degree in psychology or anything near the graduate level. I know I don't either, but I can find tons of people who do and say that this is an unhealthy relationship.


Aw, I reject the opinion you went through so many hoops laid by other people to have. That must be frustrating indeed. I'm a free thinker. You don't have to respect that any more than I respect yours. I really don't care. Whatever keeps you sane at the end of the day, honestly. That's what it comes down to.








Nightmaker81 said:


> I mean fuck we haven't proven exorcisms don't work, might as well use them on schizophrenic patients who say they are seeing demons.


Maybe. If the alternative isn't working. There's recent evidence that we could literally be living in the matrix and that our beliefs might work as programming within that of sorts.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

People have have said fuck the evidence with their own years of research. You are trying to fight decades of people with PhDs because you have a feeling. It's a bit lopsided in their favor.

But whatever, you are obviously convinced on some existential spiritual bullshit and think this is a healthy relationship. Which brings me to point with this whole topic. The entire medical community will agree that this is a very unhealthy relationship and they're not actually dealing it in a healthy way. People are still convinced it's something healthy, and the book is having a negative effect because instead of people trying to heal with their traumatic experiences and PTSD they're going to feel more of an inclination to try an addiction. Which is why I really dislike this book.


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## Lady Mary (Aug 7, 2012)

*I flipped through a friend's copy of the first book. It's disgusting. It's as delightful to me as having my teeth drilled and giving birth at the same time. In short, it's stupid, and in my opinion, takes us back, not forward. *


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Lady Mary said:


> *I flipped through a friend's copy of the first book. It's disgusting. It's as delightful to me as having my teeth drilled and giving birth at the same time. In short, it's stupid, and in my opinion, takes us back, not forward. *


Thank you. I'm actually really glad PerC has been really rational about this and it being a very bad book that glorifies people are faced with trauma.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> But whatever, you are obviously convinced on some existential spiritual bullshit and think this is a healthy relationship. Which brings me to point with this whole topic. The entire medical community will agree that this is a very unhealthy relationship and they're not actually dealing it in a healthy way. People are still convinced it's something healthy, and the book is having a negative effect because instead of people trying to heal with their traumatic experiences and PTSD they're going to feel more of an inclination to try an addiction. Which is why I really dislike this book.


I haven't once said it was a healthy relationship. I've just challenged the definition of "healthy". I think that telling a (basically strange) therapist your deepest darkest thoughts when she might go home and molest her cat while making her child watch while talking about them for all you know is just as weird. How do you know that's not happening? Because she has a degree? Just like clergy men couldn't possibly be molesting boys because they've been chosen by God? Yeaaaa.

Psychotherapy = Existential spiritual bullshit 

Life is odd. I believe in embracing it. Going with the feels.


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## sunflowersoul (May 26, 2014)

This doesn't answer the question of why women are attracted to the books, but there are plenty of legitimate reasons why this series is disgusting: Fifty Abusive Moments in Fifty Shades of Grey


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Huh? How come I'm not swimming in pussy then? I wrote fanfiction that were both hotter and better written than this tripe.

And this is coming from a forever alone motherfucker who doesn't know which tense it is, and just flat out poor writing skills in general.


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Twrankt said:


> Huh? How come I'm not swimming in pussy then? I wrote fanfiction that were both hotter and better written than this tripe.


Well to be fair it literally started as Twilight fan fiction.


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## EternalFrost (Jan 12, 2013)

This book has been a very weird phenomenon. I remember people mocking the books writing style back from the beginning, saying it was a huge joke to literature. 
Then talk started to happen about how the book depicted domestic violence and abuse after all the laughs were out of the way about how poorly written it is. To me this book is nothing but the piece of mediocre fanfiction it was always intended to be. And knowing about the abusive things portrayed in the book just make me scoff at this whole thing that much more.


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

I couldn't even finish it. It was bad, the idea itself wasn't but the plot and everything was so poorly developed and BORING.


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## perpetuallyreticent (Sep 24, 2014)

*whispers* _gurl_

_come over here and let me pull that tampon outta you_


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Probably mainly middle aged women. Or so I heard. I actually don't know anything about the book or the movie aside from it being such a big deal apparently.


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## Blessed Frozen Cells (Apr 3, 2013)

It gives BDSM a bad name. That's a good enough reason for me to hate it!


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Because it let's them think about porn without rebuking each other for their own hatred of porn.


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## aef8234 (Feb 18, 2012)

Nightmaker81 said:


> I dunno I've always been a genuinely curious and inquisitive person, and I wanted to know the source material fully before forming an opinion


In that case.
A twilight fanfic written by a guy.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

I've tried to stay as far away from both Twilight and 50 shades as I can (neither are really marketed to me, so that's not exactly an accomplishment). I hope that people can look at these things as (good or bad. I assume bad) works of fiction, and not guides to anything related to real life. In that light, yeah people thinking that it's real romance is troubling. I think at that point what we need is... better parenting.

The writing is obviously better, but Romeo and Juliet wasn't exactly a healthy relationship either.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

To be fair, a lot of romance stories have strange relationships that require a dose of pixie dust to work. 

Maybe people flock to it because their relationships are fucked up and they want validation for how fucked up their relationships are. 

Or, in the case of 50 Shades, it may be the prudish, conservative, stay-at-home-mom types who are reading it: The type who doesn't actually get BDSM and would never actually try it because it would violate their prudish paradigm, but on some level fantasizes about it nonetheless.

It's a theory.

I mean, I thought the movie Gravity was cool while I was watching it, but I don't know a damn thing about space and my brothers did know a little bit about space and were groaning afterwards.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> To be fair, a lot of romance stories have strange relationships that require a dose of pixie dust to work.
> 
> Maybe people flock to it because their relationships are fucked up and they want validation for how fucked up their relationships are.
> 
> ...


I like the Gravity comparison. Neil DeGrasse Tyson tore the movie a new one on the science, although he also said that he enjoys the movie as a movie.


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

I commented before but also want to say maybe women were attracted to it because thought the book was different than it really was. Just as many people end up going to see a movie that ends up being pretty crappy. Top three reviews in Amazon are quite negative. Of the top ten most helpful reviews, not a single one gives it five out of five. If I were to draw the graph of reviews, it would be bi-modal: Yes, 13,427 people gave it five stars. But 7,127 gave it a single star. 

Here's the top review, which gave it two out of five stars, a review which 25,023 of 25,989 people found helpful. In other words, that's 96% of readers:

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-...23468324&sr=8-1&keywords=Fifty+Shades+of+Grey



> I really don't like writing bad reviews. I admire people who have the courage to put pen to paper and expose themselves to the whole world, especially those writing erotica. Having just finished this book, however, I feel compelled to write a review.
> 
> About half way through the book, I looked up the author to see if she was a teenager. I really did because the characters are out of a 16 year old's fantasy. The main male character is a billionaire (not a millionaire but a billionaire) who speaks fluent French, is basically a concert level pianist, is a fully trained pilot, is athletic, drop dead gorgeous, tall, built perfectly with an enormous penis, and the best lover on the planet. In addition, he's not only self made but is using his money to combat world hunger. Oh yeah, and all of this at the ripe old age of 26! And on top of that, he's never working. Every second is spent having sex or texting and emailing the female character. His billions seem to have just come about by magic. It seriously feels like 2 teenage girls got together and decided to create their "dream man" and came up with Christian Grey.
> 
> ...


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

read the first quarter of the book, it was really stupid

which means it will probably be a huge hit


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## sunflowersoul (May 26, 2014)

The novel is abuse masking itself as romance. 

Abuse Is Not Romance: Ads for ‘50 Shades’ With Actual Insane Quotes from the Book


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## outofplace (Dec 19, 2012)

After reading chapter 1 of the first book, I was done. 

I just don't see the hype. Much ado about nothing.


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## Lemxn (Aug 17, 2013)

I've read half of the book...I am not even worried about the romance part, I am more worried how women consider that so sexually strong, I mean, is stupid. Really.

The only thing I find interesting in it, it's Christian Grey personality, I think women are more into him than the romance itself.

I don't get how this could be romance when basically he is abusing of her like a slave.


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## Stavrogin (May 20, 2014)

Lemxn said:


> I've read half of the book...I am not even worried about the romance part, I am more worried how women consider that so sexually strong, I mean, is stupid. Really.
> 
> The only thing I find interesting in it, it's Christian Grey personality, I think women are more into him than the romance itself.
> 
> I don't get how this could be romance when basically he is abusing of her like a slave.


Yeah but really that's worse. From what I understnad the guy's an abusive and manipulative asshole with some weird power fetish, oh wait he has a redeeming quality, he's really really rich...

I almost feel like the people who love are essentially saying "Yeah I don't mind if I get emotionally abused and raped. As long as he buys me nice things..."


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## Aletheia (Dec 25, 2014)

I haven't read the books, but from what I hear of them it seems fairly cringe-worthy. The only aspect that may have peeked my interest in watching the movie adaptation is if Charlie Hunnam didn't drop the lead role.

Anyways, it's about passion. That's what gets our panties in a twist. Some may buy into it more than others. To me it just seems ingenuine so I can't take it seriously.


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## carolineatlantis (Jan 25, 2015)

this book and movie is pathetic.. awful just awful..


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## SweetSunshine7 (Jan 28, 2015)

I tried to be open minded to these books, yet I found myself after the first half of the first book in the series skipping sections of the story. It is definitely an unhealthy portrayal of a relationship. The "encounters" they kept sprinkling throughout the books quite honestly got old for me after the first book.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

:\
6 real quotes from 'Fifty Shades' that could make you rethink how you feel about it


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Wellsy said:


> :\
> 6 real quotes from 'Fifty Shades' that could make you rethink how you feel about it


Yea, that's messed up. 

This though:

_"The oldest trick in the book. When an abuse victim finally starts to draw a boundary, the abuser calls into question the victim's sanity and relationship with reality. The victim then doubts him- or herself, and then they're persuaded to do what they 'ought to do.'"_

...has been happening just even on this thread. (Women who enjoy the books are insane and out of touch with reality).

I think that feminism can begin to become white knighting at it's extreme, which is ironic, since it's supposedly so against it. (If you're gonna white knight, just DO it...put your neck out, be protective, etc - constantly putting it on the shoulders of "society" (comprised of individuals) is irresponsible in my opinion...not like you, specifically, but just in general. Women who realize that the po po don't really have their backs, that other women see them as competition, then even the "good" guys have this side to them (Gatsby?) I think are maybe more prone to explore some of these "baser" relationships and desires for them...but idk).

It also puts "ought" barriers on sexual liberation in women. If a man wants to date the "crazy" chick it's more met with chuckles and whatever you want bro...but women can't determine who is and isn't crazy for themselves?

I should be allowed to draw my own boundaries about what I am and am not victim to in my opinion, and what I do and don't like, and so should other women.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm actually pretty horrified that one of my cousins seems to be romanticizing it, but what I can tell you about her is that she's married, but has very little experience besides her husband, who she's known since age 14...I believe she's been with one other guy. She also consistently had a more rural Bible beating existence than even I did, my uncle is a freak who would not let her celebrate Halloween. ..but on the surface she seems very "normal" married with two kids, a house and a yard, a job and religious life. Very "normal." So what I wondered is if it just seemed really risqué and different from her life experience, which has been nowhere near as varied as mine, though she's not an upright prude either.

I certainly hope actual members of my family won't allow this to lead to unexpected domestic violence in their relationships due to ignorance, I want to believe that my cousin is smart enough she might try some things with her husband, but keep the mentality that it's just a movie and not go to the extremes of psychological, emotional and sexual abuse in the book/film. The controlling her eating part especially disturbed me, as one of my sisters actually experienced this with a mentally ill ex.

I posted a PSA on my Facebook page, that's about all I can do. I have no desire to protect all of society from it, but as a feminist and woman who actually haa played around at D/s, as well as separately having had a somewhat abusive partner, I'm disgusted that stalking, jealous rages, and basically what amounts to the behavior of a person who has ZERO HEALTHY BOUNDARIES and doesn't respect the rights of others is seen as romantic. ..Christian Gray is basically a kidnapper and rapist, and what's her name has Stockholm Syndrome. I actually wonder if the author wrote it after experiencing an abusive relationship where she enjoyed the sex.


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## Shale (Jan 17, 2012)

I didn't read the book. Just saw the movie. It's pretty much soft porn with a horrible ending. Incredibly sexy movie, but of course I was sitting nearby someone who brought their 3 year old. Don't ask. Eww.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> The fantasy of meeting a troubled rich boy with a domination/S&M fetish and reforming him; all while maintaining her own sense of self and femininity? Nah, no women would would want that...


Yes, too bad allowing someone to stalk and abuse you and utterly disrespect your boundaries isn't actually a way to "fix" ASPD or Borderline Personality Disorder.


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)




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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

It's so terrible someone made a generator for it.... Fifty Shades Generator | Terrible erotic fiction at the click of a button


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Shale said:


> I didn't read the book. Just saw the movie. It's pretty much soft porn with a horrible ending. Incredibly sexy movie, but of course I was sitting nearby someone who brought their 3 year old. Don't ask. Eww.


 what I understood it to be about:


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## Mair (Feb 17, 2014)

I think it's just a "fantasy" for most of those women.
Many of them are not even truly interested in BDSM and I doubt they would want an abusive relationship.
For them it's just a book about a kinky fantasy that they probably wouldn't try in real life.


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Shale said:


> I didn't read the book. Just saw the movie. It's pretty much soft porn with a horrible ending. Incredibly sexy movie, but of course I was sitting nearby someone *who brought their 3 year old*. Don't ask. Eww.


What in God's name...


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Has anyone else had the thought that 50 Shades of Grey is like Beauty and the Beast all over again?


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

conscius said:


> What in God's name...


 @Shale

I saw a baby in the theater for Saw 3. Granted, different developmental state, but still...


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

angelfish said:


> Has anyone else had the thought that 50 Shades of Grey is like Beauty and the Beast all over again?


A tale as old as time.... trolololol.


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## lunagattina (Nov 7, 2014)

it is not even about feminism, is that it is a mediocre story, without any kind of attraction for me.

I have read the book.
I knew that I would not have liked it, but I wanted to be able to answer to those people who say "you can't say you don't like it if you don't read it".

OMG

One of the worst books ever read.

The plot is inconsistent, the characters are flat, the love story is inexistent and stupid...

Which kind of love story is? a man who falls in love for a woman just because she is clumsy. He stalks her and she LIKES IT! She don't think "which kind of weirdo is this man who stalks me this way?" nooo.... he is insanely possessive and they only speak about... about what? NOTHING! just vanilla or sadomaso sex... hmmm... don't they get bored? 

Speaking of sex then... is that the harder and more passionate sex they can think about? who wrote this book? a 15 years old girl? 
And, omg, so BORING! every description is exactly THE SAME! and even ridiculous... if a man told me "come for me baby!" I would burst out laughing!

And what about all the product placement?? 

No, definitely not a book for me.


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## AliceKettle (Feb 2, 2014)

I never read it. As a joke, I listened to people on YouTube read it aloud,and I was laughing at the poor-writing that was so obviously trying to disguise itself with over-elaborate imagery, vocabulary, and metaphors. Besides, the idea of an abusive BDSM relationship, supposedly turning loving doesn't interest me, or make it seem genuine. In fact, it sounds disgusting. I'd only ever support sex between people in which two partners have established a deep, emotional, loving, trusting, and finally a comfortably romantic relationship with each other. While I'm okay with light smut in a story where two partners are really close and in love, I don't like it to be too heavily descriptive (perhaps, being a virgin myself, it makes me feel uncomfortable with heavily descriptive sex scenes. If I happen to read a story that I like which does contain heavy smut, I usually skim through the really heated intense sex scenes).


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