# Manifestation of demonic Fi in INTPs



## Eric B

Matchbook said:


> *Fi/Ti Relationship:* As for Ti, it poses an even greater threat than Te. Because Fi is composed of internal desires, values, and ideals that are formed through personal preference, Ti may be seen as a hellion that has come to infiltrate Fi and undermine it, exposing the irrationality of its views with its logical process, devaluing its hopes, stealing its dreams. Thus, when Fi ideals are activated, Ti may be highly guarded against, being seen as a saboteur to happiness. For a simplistic analogy, it would be like a diabetic who goes to a bakery with some friends. They have been talking about how delicious the cinnamon rolls are there, and everyone gets one, but the diabetic realizes that she forgot to bring an insulin shot, and so if she ate a roll now, she might experience dangerous blood sugar levels (Ti mortar shell explodes in her brain directly over Fi). This logical reality of her bodily functioning has seemingly undermined her desire, stealing her happiness. Such an analogy gives a simple illustration, but in larger examples, such as long-constructed dreams, world views, spirituality, etc, Ti may threaten to take down entire frameworks with its logical reality.


Yeah; I could have added an example that I have used elsewhere, regarding how Fi plays out in my reaction to moralism. 
It feels like a _threat_. Like the internal/universal ethics will condemn the logic. As it is, logic is often put down in old-fashioned type moralistic religion. And then, even in the secular environment, we're often told not to let the values of those around us bother us; just have inner self-worth and contentment. (basically, a sense of integrity). This attitude I would fear would potentially allow evil to take over.



Naama said:


> i see a problem on this, but i think its partially right. when for example this feeling side(that is extraverted in intp) goes through internal areas. why do you think that the internal area is Fi instead of Ti looking like an Fi due to Fe origin of the decision?
> 
> the problem with mbti is that it is originated from the work of jung, but it seems to be lacking the thought process that led to these psychological types and functions. its like mbti is continued deduction of the "facts" that jung discovered, missing the essentials that led to these functions and types.
> 
> i try to explain better:
> 
> jung came to the conclusion of the functions and types due to analysis of his patients, looking deep into the human psyche, by reviewing and criticizing typology made in the past and making logical deduction of them.
> 
> now mbti(and other forms of typology that are based on jungs work) takes these functions and types and disregards the reasons behind them(what led to these types and functions) and draws new conclusions about them. because mbti(and other forms of typology that are based on jungs work) is lacking the deduction used from the same source i dont think its that good of an idea to continue making conclusions about psychological types. because it might be accurate on the surface(like with the whole type using four functions), but when you go deeper(into these shadow functions) its bound to fail if you dont do the deduction using the same source that was originally used to produce these functions and types.
> these shadow functions are created due to this kind of faulty deduction, therefore im skeptical about them and because i have an explanation that seems to work and that can make these shadow functions untrue, im skeptical about them to the point that i think they are most likely incorrect.


 But again, as Jung conceived it, there were only *four* functions. The two orientations figured separately. So it's better to simply think of it as Feeling creeping into the internal area, rather than Ti "_looking like_" Fi, or "adding to" Fe to look like Fi. You have functions "looking like" others, further clouding the concepts. But the four different functions can veer into the opposite orientations from those they are normally assigned to. Often, this will be connected to an archetypal complex, though not always, necessarily.


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## Unicorntopia

Eric B said:


> Yeah; I could have added an example that I have used elsewhere, regarding how Fi plays out in my reaction to moralism.
> It feels like a _threat_. Like the internal/universal ethics will condemn the logic. As it is, logic is often put down in old-fashioned type moralistic religion. And then, even in the secular environment, we're often told not to let the values of those around us bother us; just have inner self-worth and contentment. (basically, a sense of integrity). This attitude I would fear would potentially allow evil to take over.
> 
> But again, as Jung conceived it, there were only *four* functions. The two orientations figured separately. So it's better to simply think of it as Feeling creeping into the internal area, rather than Ti "_looking like_" Fi, or "adding to" Fe to look like Fi. You have functions "looking like" others, further clouding the concepts. But the four different functions can veer into the opposite orientations from those they are normally assigned to. Often, this will be connected to an archetypal complex, though not always, necessarily.


From my personal reflection and listening to others I think, it's both. I think I am an INFJ and I don't have my personality showing right now because I am asking PerC what they think I am. I Ne from both conscious Ne (rarely) and from mimicking it - choosing to pick sections of my Ni info separated from each other, packaged and designed by Fe motivation and then argued with Ti since it is the only argument that holds any water against the popular stuff of today like math and science (you get my drift, I hope). I am well aware that I am not presenting the entire Ni truth of the matter, but one must do what they have to do to get things done. If it will not most likely hinder me from accomplishing my goal, I will always put disclaimers on everything I say like _I think_ and _that's what I read at least_ or _if your looking at from this angle which does not take into account this or that but that is a hole nother convo_. I know I do conscious Ne/Ti but it is usually randomly at night before I fall asleep and it makes me feel like I am on speed or something and my mind just starts running at a billion miles per second coming up with everything that makes any sense. This is good confirmation and fuel for my Ni/Fe. I know it is Ne/Ti because my sister is an ENTP and we have lived together and hung out together most of our lives. It is very difficult for her to quiet her brain. When she explains it, it sounds just like what I do but rarely. I have most definitely learned to mimic Ne/Ti as a survival technique because my ENTP sis and INTP bro were always beating me up verbally with it. I had to learn to win an argument.


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## Naama

Eric B said:


> But again, as Jung conceived it, there were only *four* functions. The two orientations figured separately. So it's better to simply think of it as Feeling creeping into the internal area, rather than Ti "_looking like_" Fi, or "adding to" Fe to look like Fi. You have functions "looking like" others, further clouding the concepts. But the four different functions can veer into the opposite orientations from those they are normally assigned to. Often, this will be connected to an archetypal complex, though not always, necessarily.


where did you get this idea of only 4 functions? he clearly talks for example about introverted intuition and extraverted intuition in his book "psychological types"(where mbti and others originated), he does also talk about intuition(as one) how how it works, but that part is just about the commonalities between the two intuition functions.

but you see when this feeling is creeping in the internal areas of intp, the internal decision areas are thinking areas in intp, so it would be natural that when this feeling comes in the areas of introverted thinking, it is actually Ti working the Fe. converting the introverted area into something unnatural to the person would feel quite weird weird thing to do.

i have been doing quite much introspection about this "Fi" tests claim that im using much and defining/trying to understand the exact processes and principles on how it works. after about 6 months of doing this kind of introspection im convinced that it was actually a battle between my weak Fe and strong Ti. Fe is what triggered this whole incident that took me in this "Fi" hell for nearly a year and because of what my Fe was telling me to do went so strongly against what my Ti wanted it created a conflict inside my mind causing me to feel even more miserable, because i didnt know what i should do. basically Fe option was too hard for me and Ti simply didnt work(i tried, but only managed to make things worse doing so). what took me over from this was to do the Fe thing as much as my Ti would allow me to do without me feeling like its a wrong thing to do.
you see, even tho i used my F with introverted J, it wasnt Fi that i was using, it was basically Ti adjusting the situation triggered by Fe. for example i didnt want to see one girl(could call her a friend, i guess.. or at least almost) when her boyfriend was with her, and could just barely see her if he wasnt around. then there was a situation where her boyfriend went working outside of the country for few months. so figured that the logical conclusion would be me getting used to the situation when he is not there(i didnt see that girl in a long time before this because of what happened), because if i could get used to her company and everything would be fine, it would be more likely that i could be in their company when they are together etc etc.
you know Ti is able to handle your feelings and process them, its just that its processing them using logic and kind of detaching yourself from the feelings, defining the basics of the feelings creating a shape for them(how they will effect you etc) and then using those defined feelings like lego parts and using them to create a formation where everything fits and that you are happy about.

what was funny about this incident was that i scored 90-100% T before it, i didnt do single function test before it, but you dont score that high T if your Fi is nearly as strong as your Ti in single function test. also this incident has caused me to use my Fe Ti combo even in smaller situations where its not that big of a deal and nothing is forcing me to use that instead of only my Ti. i have noticed that i have become more aware of my Fe, like reading the feelings on people around me. so if im using my Fi and this incident triggered Fi in me, why have i started using my Fe more fluidly?


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## Naama

Unicorntopia said:


> From my personal reflection and listening to others I think, it's both. I think I am an INFJ and I don't have my personality showing right now because I am asking PerC what they think I am. I Ne from both *conscious Ne*


Ne is unconscious function like Ni, so if you are doing it consciously, its not Ne that you are doing, you are just copying how your sister works when she is using her Ne.

also about this unconscious Ne that you say you use. how can you be sure that it is Ne, not Ni if its unconscious? if some process is unconscious you will only see the results it gives, not the actual process, Ni and Ne have alot in common and can come to same conclusions, so how can you be sure that even this is actually Ne and not Ni?


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## Unicorntopia

Naama said:


> Ne is unconscious function like Ni, so if you are doing it consciously, its not Ne that you are doing, you are just copying how your sister works when she is using her Ne.


How then can you one be a dom N?


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## Naama

Unicorntopia said:


> How then can you one be a dom N?


N being a dominant function..

are you in belief that only the dominant function can be conscious or why do you ask this?

i added something to my last post


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## amnorvend

vel said:


> Well making a parallel from your ETJ story demonic Si in a J-type would be making a plan while forgetting the specifics of what exactly worked in past and thus perhaps substituting and using incorrect tools to get the job done. Or may be drawing similarities where this cannot be applied just because you forgot to account for the specific details of what happened in past.


In the examples I gave, I was speaking of types that were primarily judgers: INTPs (Ti with demonic Fi) and ENTJs (Te with demonic Fe). If we're talking about INJs, it goes from making plans to perceiving things.



Matchbook said:


> *
> Fi/Ti Relationship:* As for Ti, it poses an even greater threat than Te. Because Fi is composed of internal desires, values, and ideals that are formed through personal preference, Ti may be seen as a hellion that has come to infiltrate Fi and undermine it, exposing the irrationality of its views with its logical process, devaluing its hopes, stealing its dreams. Thus, when Fi ideals are activated, Ti may be highly guarded against, being seen as a saboteur to happiness. For a simplistic analogy, it would be like a diabetic who goes to a bakery with some friends. They have been talking about how delicious the cinnamon rolls are there, and everyone gets one, but the diabetic realizes that she forgot to bring an insulin shot, and so if she ate a roll now, she might experience dangerous blood sugar levels (Ti mortar shell explodes in her brain directly over Fi). This logical reality of her bodily functioning has seemingly undermined her desire, stealing her happiness. Such an analogy gives a simple illustration, but in larger examples, such as long-constructed dreams, world views, spirituality, etc, Ti may threaten to take down entire frameworks with its logical reality.


This is the thing that's tricky about the demonic function. With some anima development, you can tame the demon somewhat but you can't really make it be good. You're discussing Ti as it would be if used as a conscious function, but shadowy functions are negative and unconscious. You can see a good example coming from Freud (who Jung considered Fi-dominant). One of the things Ti does is name things in ways that society didn't preconceive. So why did he name the Oedipus complex (which he considered a normal part of a child's development) after a play that ends with the main character gouging his eyes out? Or why did he name narcissism (which is also normal and even healthy to a certain degree) after a person who drowned in a lake looking at himself? The answer is demonic Ti.

To adapt your bakery analogy, a more likely scenario is that Ti convinced you to "forget" the insulin shot at home and then made the decision to go to the bakery. It's most likely Te that will break you free from Ti's dastardly scheme and remind you that these cinnamon rolls will kill you.



> The truth is, for an INFP, Ti is not a hellion/demon; it is only perceived as such. If the INFP builds castles in the sky, and then Ti points out that castles are subject to gravity, the castles may start plummeting toward terra firma, but the truth is, if Ti can so easily undo Fi ideals, then the individual should understand that Ti is but a helpful instrument in refining some of the quixotic dreams of Fi, making it more possible for the individual to realize those dreams. If I am dreaming of a $5000 European vacation, yet financial analysis would show I can only afford $2000, otherwise I'd be in debt, even though Ti may then be received as something of a churlish imp, I ought to be thankful for its use.


Te is what points out that the castles are subject to gravity and forces you to plan for that. Ti IS the gravity that tears the castle down.


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## amnorvend

Naama said:


> Ne is unconscious function like Ni, so if you are doing it consciously, its not Ne that you are doing, you are just copying how your sister works when she is using her Ne.
> 
> also about this unconscious Ne that you say you use. how can you be sure that it is Ne, not Ni if its unconscious? if some process is unconscious you will only see the results it gives, not the actual process, Ni and Ne have alot in common and can come to same conclusions, so how can you be sure that even this is actually Ne and not Ni?


You're probably thinking of this quote from Jung:



> So my definition of that intuition is a perception via the unconscious.


You sometimes have to take Jung's work with a grain of salt. One of the primary themes in Jung's work (Jung probably having been an INTJ) is that he was trying to overcome the limitations of the language he was using. This leads him to use words in confusing and sometimes even contradictory ways. Even if Jung believed that intuition's source is the unconscious, it's clear that he believed that intuition was consciously usable:



> It is a very important function, because when you live under primitive conditions a lot of unpredictable things are likely to happen. Then you need your intuition because you cannot possibly tell by your sense perceptions what is going to happen. *For instance, you are traveling in a primeval forest. *You can only see a few steps ahead. *You go by the compass, perhaps, but you don’t know what there is ahead. *It is uncharted country. *If you use your intuition you have hunches. *There are places that are favorable; there are places that are not favorable. *You can’t tell for your life what it is, but you’d better follow those hunches because anything can happen, quite unforeseen things.


Thus, I don't really think it's fair to say that intuition is an unconscious function.


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## Eric B

Unicorntopia said:


> From my personal reflection and listening to others I think, it's both. I think I am an INFJ and I don't have my personality showing right now because I am asking PerC what they think I am. I Ne from both conscious Ne (rarely) and from mimicking it - choosing to pick sections of my Ni info separated from each other, packaged and designed by Fe motivation and then argued with Ti since it is the only argument that holds any water against the popular stuff of today like math and science (you get my drift, I hope). I am well aware that I am not presenting the entire Ni truth of the matter, but one must do what they have to do to get things done. If it will not most likely hinder me from accomplishing my goal, I will always put disclaimers on everything I say like _I think_ and _that's what I read at least_ or _if your looking at from this angle which does not take into account this or that but that is a hole nother convo_. I know I do conscious Ne/Ti but it is usually randomly at night before I fall asleep and it makes me feel like I am on speed or something and my mind just starts running at a billion miles per second coming up with everything that makes any sense. This is good confirmation and fuel for my Ni/Fe. I know it is Ne/Ti because my sister is an ENTP and we have lived together and hung out together most of our lives. It is very difficult for her to quiet her brain. When she explains it, it sounds just like what I do but rarely. I have most definitely learned to mimic Ne/Ti as a survival technique because my ENTP sis and INTP bro were always beating me up verbally with it. I had to learn to win an argument.


For an Ni dominant, Ne is "backup", so you could be experiencing it in that way as you describe.



Naama said:


> where did you get this idea of only 4 functions? he clearly talks for example about introverted intuition and extraverted intuition in his book "psychological types"(where mbti and others originated), he does also talk about intuition(as one) how how it works, but that part is just about the commonalities between the two intuition functions.
> 
> but you see when this feeling is creeping in the internal areas of intp, the internal decision areas are thinking areas in intp, so it would be natural that when this feeling comes in the areas of introverted thinking, it is actually Ti working the Fe. converting the introverted area into something unnatural to the person would feel quite weird weird thing to do.
> 
> you see, even tho i used my F with introverted J, it wasnt Fi that i was using, it was basically Ti adjusting the situation triggered by Fe.
> 
> you know Ti is able to handle your feelings and process them, its just that its processing them using logic and kind of detaching yourself from the feelings, defining the basics of the feelings creating a shape for them(how they will effect you etc) and then using those defined feelings like lego parts and using them to create a formation where everything fits and that you are happy about.
> 
> i have noticed that i have become more aware of my Fe, like reading the feelings on people around me. so if im using my Fi and this incident triggered Fi in me, why have i started using my Fe more fluidly?


Yes, Jung could then pair the functions and attitudes together into singular entities. Still, they do seem to be conceived separately, and my point is, they do not seem to have been intended to be eight hard, indivisible items. So you're describing _Feeling_. It's usually relegated to the external world, but inasmuch as it intermingles with your internal world (and its preferred Thinking), it can be seen as an internalization of Feeling. You don't have to add a solid "Fe" and "Ti" together and then claim it "looks like" Fi. It's simply F + i, or perhaps F * i. You could also look at it as a general "P" processs (internal judgment, handling both the logical and ethical or emotional aspect of a situation), illustrating J/P's warrant as a distinct factor.


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## Naama

amnorvend said:


> You're probably thinking of this quote from Jung:
> 
> 
> 
> You sometimes have to take Jung's work with a grain of salt. One of the primary themes in Jung's work (Jung probably having been an INTJ) is that he was trying to overcome the limitations of the language he was using. This leads him to use words in confusing and sometimes even contradictory ways. Even if Jung believed that intuition's source is the unconscious, it's clear that he believed that intuition was consciously usable:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, I don't really think it's fair to say that intuition is an unconscious function.


jung was definitely an intp(i think he even mentioned it in some interview + when you read his books, its obvious that his thinking process comes from Ti Ne Si Fe).

jung reasoned the intuition being unconscious function like this:
intuition works vie unconscious because its seeing the big picture and connections between them without consciously looking into details and figuring out the big picture through them. sensors how even who consciously look into the details and figure out the big picture via conscious observations.

thus i think its totally fair to say that intuition is an unconscious process.

this is what determines intuition from sensors. also this is why sensors have harder time seeing the big picture because they need to do two different conscious processes to determine the big picture. and because intuitives do this detail observation via unconscious, its harder for them to see them and in order to see them, they need to go from conscious seeing of the big picture to the details. and no, seeing consciously the big picture doesent make intuition an conscious process, because *it is formed* due to unconscious process.

types that are "made" to see the details via unconscious have hard time to see the details via conscious because they naturally do this process through the unconscious process.


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## Naama

Eric B said:


> Yes, Jung could then pair the functions and attitudes together into singular entities. Still, they do seem to be conceived separately, and my point is, they do not seem to have been intended to be eight hard, indivisible items. So you're describing _Feeling_. It's usually relegated to the external world, but inasmuch as it intermingles with your internal world (and its preferred Thinking), it can be seen as an internalization of Feeling. You don't have to add a solid "Fe" and "Ti" together and then claim it "looks like" Fi. It's simply F + i, or perhaps F * i.


its not just F + i because it is Fe function and Ti function. F + i could be Fi + Si.

are you sure that you are an intp :laughing:? intps are notoriously precise on their definitions and your F + i definition is everything but precise.

im not describing feeling, im talking about that Fe triggered a feeling in me due to major disturbance in social circles, and i used Ti to process these feelings caused by Ti. Fe kinda said that i should do everything to maintain this balance so that i dont cause the disturbance in my social circles. but (see that lego metaphor that i used) i wasnt happy with the structure that i should have created, therefore it would have not been logical to do so, so i figured out ways with Ti that i can be happy with, or more like ways that causes least disturbance, but that im comfortable with enough to do.

you didnt answer to my question, for why have i developed Fe in real life, even tho test says i have developed Fi?


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## Matchbook

Quoted from Naama:



> are you sure that what you call Ti in infp is not actually Fi Te? i mean it might be just that your Fi decides to go against itself based on strong Te suggestion. This kind of function going against itself would cause the type of feelings you say that you get when using Ti. Naturally it would be logical process(due to Te base) and even tho the decision to take the logical action would come from Ji function, it could just as well come from Fi, because the suggestion from Te would be so strong that even the normally illogical Fi could not deny that this is the right thing to do.
> 
> i have personally experienced a situation where im forced to use my "Fi" and now that i think about it, im 99% sure that it actually was just my Ti Fe and Fe forcing my Ti to go against itself and thats why it felt so hard.


Ok, I do see what you are saying here. While I believe that there is a more conscious interplay between Fi and Te than with Fi/Ti, I am wanting to clearly distinguish the part that Ti has in affecting Fi and affecting decision-making. When the INFP encounters a logical obstacle to Fi, Te naturally gives an extroverted response, BUT, the response that Te has is based upon the activity of Ti, if indeed the INFP turns to logical reasoning rather than escapism from Ti.

So to put it another way, the Fi has an internal map of what it wants in a given situation, Ti comes in and superimposes a map of what IS, and to rectify any difficult differences and incompatibilities, Te action must be taken. Not only does Ti give a map of what is, but when fed by stored Si patterns, it may extend the logical progression into the future (in a logical fashion in which Ni does not), and reveal what are the next consequential sequence of events. Because of this, it leaves the INFP with the Fi/Te activity that you spoke of. The preceding may have taken place outside of fully conscious thought out of the Fi's egoic desire to spare itself from seeing Ti pick it apart. The INFP then must decide how to implement Fi/Te...either in a revised way, courtesy of Ti, or in the pre-existent Fi way of things.

To show this in the diabetic illustration I gave before, the diabetic girl at the bakery, after realizing that she forgot her insulin may not have done any conscious Ti analysis of, "If I did this, this would result, naturally leading to this, therefore..." since that was already worked out in the mind, but rather the first conscious thoughts may have been Fi/Te..."I don't want to screw up my blood sugar (Fi) so I need to wait to eat the cinnamon roll until later (Te). Fi/Te is the most visible element here, but it was Ti that played the "villain" to Fi here, because it's logical conclusions revealed the necessity to deny Fi.


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## Unicorntopia

Naama said:


> jung was definitely an intp(i think he even mentioned it in some interview + when you read his books, its obvious that his thinking process comes from Ti Ne Si Fe).
> 
> jung reasoned the intuition being unconscious function like this:
> intuition works vie unconscious because its seeing the big picture and connections between them without consciously looking into details and figuring out the big picture through them. sensors how even who consciously look into the details and figure out the big picture via conscious observations.
> 
> thus i think its totally fair to say that intuition is an unconscious process.
> 
> this is what determines intuition from sensors. also this is why sensors have harder time seeing the big picture because they need to do two different conscious processes to determine the big picture. and because intuitives do this detail observation via unconscious, its harder for them to see them and in order to see them, they need to go from conscious seeing of the big picture to the details. and no, seeing consciously the big picture doesent make intuition an conscious process, because *it is formed* due to unconscious process.
> 
> types that are "made" to see the details via unconscious have hard time to see the details via conscious because they naturally do this process through the unconscious process.


So are you saying that N doms are mostly unconscious? :shocked:


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## Matchbook

*INTPs and the Relationship of Fi to Ti/Fe*

Naama, this is in response to the last thing you had said to me, but is directed to all INTPs as a supplement to this topic:

You say that you experienced a situation where you were forced to use your Fi, yet you think it was really your Ti/Fe. Through the same principle of functioning that I just explained for the INFP, I find it likely that Fi was partially responsible beneath the surface. 

Say that an INTP's Ti activity is at risk unless they use Fe...well, why would they really care about that risk unless Fi compelled them to protect themself and Ti? That's why Fi plays the hellion role for you INTPs. If only you didn't have to have any concern for your desires, emotions, and internal "conscience", Ti could go about its business both undistracted and undeterred by personal concerns, disappointments, and internal threats. Fi is the underlying reason an INTP needs to use Fe. If your Ti is going to be any use to your own personal fulfillment and of use to this world, you'll need Fe...but that whole need for personal fulfillment and being useful in society is because of Fi. If an INTP's Fi were completely non-existent, that INTP could swim through their Ti world in their head, with no need to do anything about it...no reason to make it useful, no reason to share it.

In additional thought, it is because of these reasons that the Fe is in that inferior role...because Ti is compulsively repelled by demonic Fi, which compromises the deep-seated Fi desire they have for what Fe can do for them. (This corresponds to how an INFP is compulsively repelled by Ti, which compromises their deep-seated desire for what Te can do for them.)


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## Naama

Matchbook said:


> Quoted from Naama:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I do see what you are saying here. I believe that there is a more conscious interplay between Fi and Te than with Fi/Ti, but I am wanting to clearly distinguish the part that Ti has in affecting Fi and affecting decision-making. When the INFP encounters a logical obstacle to Fi, Te naturally gives an extroverted response, BUT, the response that Te has is based upon the activity of Ti, if indeed the INFP turns to logical reasoning rather than escapism from Ti.
> 
> So to put it another way, the Fi has an internal map of what it wants in a given situation, Ti comes in and superimposes a map of what IS, and to rectify any difficult differences and incompatibilities, Te action must be taken. Not only does Ti give a map of what is, but when fed by stored Si patterns, it may extend the logical progression into the future (in a logical fashion in which Ni does not), and reveal what are the next consequential sequence of events. Because of this, it leaves the INFP with the Fi/Te activity that you spoke of. The preceding may have taken place outside of fully conscious thought out of the Fi's egoic desire to spare itself from seeing Ti pick it apart. The INFP then must decide how to implement Fi/Te...either in a revised way, courtesy of Ti, or in the pre-existent Fi way of things.
> 
> To show this in the diabetic illustration I gave before, the diabetic girl at the bakery, after realizing that she forgot her insulin may not have done any conscious Ti analysis of, "If I did this, this would result, naturally leading to this, therefore..." since that was already worked out in the mind, but rather the first conscious thoughts may have been Fi/Te..."I don't want to screw up my blood sugar (Fi) so I need to wait to eat the cinnamon roll until later (Te). Fi/Te is the most visible element here, but it was Ti that played the "villain" to Fi here, because it's logical conclusions revealed the necessity to deny Fi.


response of Te is not based upon Ti. what makes you say that? If you use Ji function to decide to work on Te response or not, you use Fi for it. *it feels right to work by this logical Te suggestion* -> the logic comes from Te but it is decided to act on this logic by Fi, this process as whole is made by Ji and is logical, but it doesent make it Ti. or when using Si *i remember last time this happened and did wrong when trusting my Fi, ill pick the suggestion from Te now*.

Ti doesent say what is, S does that.

"If I did this, this would result, naturally leading to this, therefore..." this can also come from Si Te, because it is internalized fact from external source. Your doctor told you that if you eat this, you must take your insulin(comes from Si), because it makes your blood sugar go too high and causing you to faint(or what ever)(comes from Te). and i" dont feel like going through this" coming from Fi. you see Fi isnt illogical all the time, its just that it can go against logic and you dont need Ti to make logical decision.

conclusion: your explanation doesent say why infp would need to use Ti in this situation.


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## Naama

Unicorntopia said:


> So are you saying that N doms are mostly unconscious? :shocked:


the process of N is unconscious, and the results of this processes come to conscious.

i explained it few posts back



> jung reasoned the intuition being unconscious function like this:
> intuition works vie unconscious because its seeing the big picture and connections between them without consciously looking into details and figuring out the big picture through them. sensors how even who consciously look into the details and figure out the big picture via conscious observations.
> 
> thus i think its totally fair to say that intuition is an unconscious process.
> 
> this is what determines intuition from sensors. also this is why sensors have harder time seeing the big picture because they need to do two different conscious processes to determine the big picture. and because intuitives do this detail observation via unconscious, its harder for them to see them and in order to see them, they need to go from conscious seeing of the big picture to the details. and no, seeing consciously the big picture doesent make intuition an conscious process, because it is formed due to unconscious process.
> 
> types that are "made" to see the details via unconscious have hard time to see the details via conscious because they naturally do this process through the unconscious process.


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## Unicorntopia

Ti = connections between things
Fi = importance of things

Ti Dom focuses on the connections, but of what? We have to have a way to determine which "things" we are going to focus on making connections between. When a Ti dom drops one project unfinished because his interests all the sudden switched... the interest switch is demonic unconscious Fi choosing the importance of what the Ti dom is going to dive head first into next. To figure out why you choose to switch from subject to subject is how you start bringing your 8th Fi function into consciousness. After you realize you have been using it all along, you will realize you can actually choose to focus on it rather than Ti. After brooding in that for a couple of years you might actually start seeing the hypocrisy of it all and that none is better than the other and they are all sources of truth.


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## Naama

Unicorntopia said:


> Ti = connections between things
> Fi = importance of things


no

Ti = objective(if this is applied to person himself, it takes the analysis out of the subjective factors) logical analysis to distinguish the essentials on how something works and using these essentials of something on logical deduction. it can be used to reason why some connections are there, but the connections come from Ne, not Ti, Ti simply answers to the question; why do these connections occur or are they real or just seemingly connections.

Fi = it does evaluate the importance of things, but it also evaluates personal values, what the person wants, whats worth believing in etc. it seeks to balance things based on what is worth, importance of things and seeks to find internal balance to find personal peace. when used on extraverted issues, it creates unconscious simulation of what is happening in the outside world and places it onto himself, causing the person the feel. but even tho this process starts from external factors, the person sets the simulation of the external world onto himself and because of this subjective factor of the simulation, the function remains introverted(he doesent use the external world, but internal simulation of it).



Unicorntopia said:


> Ti Dom focuses on the connections, but of what? We have to have a way to determine which "things" we are going to focus on making connections between. When a Ti dom drops one project unfinished because his interests all the sudden switched... the interest switch is demonic unconscious Fi choosing the importance of what the Ti dom is going to dive head first into next. To figure out why you choose to switch from subject to subject is how you start bringing your 8th Fi function into consciousness. After you realize you have been using it all along, you will realize you can actually choose to focus on it rather than Ti. After brooding in that for a couple of years you might actually start seeing the hypocrisy of it all and that none is better than the other and they are all sources of truth.


sorry but :crazy:


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## Eric B

Naama said:


> its not just F + i because it is Fe function and Ti function. F + i could be Fi + Si.


 That would e unnecessary, since you're comparing two introverted functions. So yes, if it were Si and Fi, you would be using F, S and i.



> are you sure that you are an intp :laughing:? intps are notoriously precise on their definitions and your F + i definition is everything but precise.


It's a lot more precise than having functions "look like" another, or two functions combining to simulate another. (Like why would't the Fe+Ti you mention look like Te, then?)

Also, since you began quoting, I added at the end the point that to go from Ti to Fi is general "P" (Ji) behavior. Fi does have something in common with Ti that Fe does not. It in at least one way is more like Ti than Fe is.

Sometimes, the way we discuss these things treats the functions like "gears" we shift from one to the other, and I think the concepts are a bit more fluid than that.



> im not describing feeling, im talking about that Fe triggered a feeling in me due to major disturbance in social circles, and i used Ti to process these feelings caused by Ti. Fe kinda said that i should do everything to maintain this balance so that i dont cause the disturbance in my social circles. but (see that lego metaphor that i used) i wasnt happy with the structure that i should have created, therefore it would have not been logical to do so, so i figured out ways with Ti that i can be happy with, or more like ways that causes least disturbance, but that im comfortable with enough to do.


 Then maybe it was not a matter of that particular instance "looking like" Fi at all, then. 


> you didnt answer to my question, for why have i developed Fe in real life, even tho test says i have developed Fi?


If you're still talking about the cognitive process test, I believe there is a big Forer effect with the Fi questions. They ask stuff like "knowing what's important to me", which almost anyone can answer. It's a little more to it than simply knowing what one wants. That's just the product of a conscious *ego* of any type. So a lot of both TP's (myself included) and FJ's score very highly on Fi.

another possibility, again, is Fi as right brain (P) alternative to Ti. Hence, in Lenore Thomson's version of the eight functions, the order for an INTP is TiNeFiSeNiTeSiFe. Most INTP's results of the test actually come out closer to this order, and for other types as well, the inferior usually comes out weakest, so that it _really is_ "inferior". As I always have emphasized, the orders are not about "_strengths_". The inferior is the most consciously rejected, while the shadows are totally unconscious. So measured purely by behaviors associated with the (as this test gauges), they may come out stronger than the inferior.


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## vel

All of the introverted functions are called subjective and Ti is subjective internal logic that is specific to its user.

There is confusion about what to call Ti and Fi, subjective or objective, seemingly because there exist different definitions for the word "objective". For merriam-webster:
def #1: - relating to or existing as an object of thought without consideration of independent existence —used chiefly in medieval philosophy; of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers : having reality independent of the mind <objective reality>
def #2: - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Ti is not objective function by definition #1 as it is very much specific to the individual who uses it to call judgements and form opinions (hence why I've seen it also being referenced to as being able to think independently). It is not independent from individual who uses it.

Ti does fit definition of objective #2 if you remove the words "prejudices" and "interpretations" because as subjective function it will include individual's nuances, but you can keep word "feeling" in there because what it does is make judgements while putting value of individual at zero, thus discarding individual's own feelings. This is why Fi is antithesis to Ti ('demonic' function is a sort of poetic way of stating it) because Fi does something completely opposite - it puts value of individual at maximum when calling judgements. So Ti is akin to abstracting from yourself and devaluing self in calling judgements. It is also associated with being self-critical and displaying self-sacrifical behavior especially if Fe outranks it on cognitive ladder (but Ti is likely to sacrifice not only self but others as well). Fi to the contrary gives the individual a sense of value within himself or herself, self-empathy, feeling valuable as a human being. It is associated with being able to tell what is valuable form your personal stand point of view. Ti can be called objective function in sense that it makes judgement without "without distortion by personal feelings".

Ti doesn't interconnect things (that is job of Ne or Ni). Instead of sort of breaks them up into fractions, into pieces, and makes judgements about those pieces. It ask "how does this work?" and seeks to gain internal vision of the inner workings of whatever it is that caught your interest. Although I think I have some Ni bias in this interpretation as Ti-Ne would probably ask "how it could possibly work" where as Ti-Ni in ISTPs and INFJs would ask "how does this already existing thing work".

More discussion about Ti and Fi here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/3074-ti-v-fi-closer-look.html#post75803


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## saffron

@Naama Good points. I agree that an INFP may make a bigger show of being upset or offended and act strongly, but can jump right back in. Also agree (speaking for myself since I know some ENFPs may disagree) that I suck at closing doors on people, even when it's completely evident that I should. I'm getting better though.


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## greenfairy026

I am INTP, and Fe vs. Fi is one of the main reasons I came to that conclusion. Some CF tests put my Fi over my Fe, and even say it is moderately well developed; but Ti is always at or near the top (and over both of them). I used to think I was INFP because I used to be really concerned about ethics. I have always balanced my ethics against what I think is universal objective truth though. Now I think moral judgements are mostly unnecessary and irrelevant; my ethical code consists of being responsible for the consequences of one's actions, and my ethical framework consists of objective principles upon which the world operates. I still have most of the same opinions, I just think about them in a different way. More Fe than Fi?

I do think I use Fi positively in some ways. I am good at knowing how I feel about my opinions (I just don't ever let that be my final decision). I do care a lot about humanity and the planet and the life on it. I am empathic (though my Ti has a lot of trouble with this). I know what is good for me and what is not, what the energy in a situation feels like and whether I want to be around it, and I always listen to this. In this way I think I incorporate my Fi into my intuition. With emotions though, I'm kind of Fi retarded.

I also do the negative Si thing of reliving the past a lot. I get emotional about issues, not specific circumstances. Every negative experience I have points to that _issue_, and all the feelings from all the experiences that point to that issue I have had in my life gather together and come back to haunt me whenever a new such experience happens. I have a hard time letting go of things. 
I also have a hard time knowing exactly how I really feel about things, and the depth of them; so half the time when I remember something and remember how I felt and experience it again I don't know if I am just processing feelings I need to let go of, or whether I'm just dwelling on the past and not letting it go. 

Anyway, I pretty much agree about the 8 functions. It seems we all need all 8 in order to function optimally as human beings, we just have individual viewpoints and ways of operating. I think the task is to develop all of them as much as possible.


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## Eric B

The functions aren't really "things" we have "more of" than others. They _are_ the "individual viewpoints and ways of operating" you mentioned. It's not so much "developing" them, but becoming aware of the other viewpoints.

If Fi comes out "stronger" than Fe, then the cognitive process test is likely picking out behaviors associated with the functions, and as a right-brain P, Fi-associated behaviors will come a bit more naturally. But the actual Fi perspective is much less conscious than the Fe one, though Fe might not be acted upon as much (hence coming out so "weak" for NTP's).

An example I can give is someone who appears to have an underdeveloped tertiary Fe. 
Inflates itself to look mature and knowledgeable on relationships (what's really “parenting” others is Ti internal principles), and is very open and inviting of new frienships and socialization.

But is oblivious to the affects of certain behaviors or gestures on people. (Ne that imagines the ideal scenario where people still take the person seriously and not "judge"; thus “trying to have it both ways” <Ne). Then shadowy Fi defiantly maintains an inner sense of integrity, placing others in a double bind, and lashes out at and blames them and becomes willing to quickly cut them off when shown this information disowned from consciousness. 

So you have Fe as behavior (“connecting”, etc) which is strong, but as a _perspective_, it is very weak. Fi is even less conscious (true integrity), yet the [reactive] behaviors associated with it seem to trump even Fe in the end.


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## JungyesMBTIno

Eric B said:


> The functions aren't really "things" we have "more of" than others. They _are_ the "individual viewpoints and ways of operating" you mentioned. It's not so much "developing" them, but becoming aware of the other viewpoints.
> 
> If Fi comes out "stronger" than Fe, then the cognitive process test is likely picking out behaviors associated with the functions, and as a right-brain P, Fi-associated behaviors will come a bit more naturally. But the actual Fi perspective is much less conscious than the Fe one, though Fe might not be acted upon as much (hence coming out so "weak" for NTP's).
> 
> An example I can give is someone who appears to have an underdeveloped tertiary Fe.
> Inflates itself to look mature and knowledgeable on relationships (what's really “parenting” others is Ti internal principles), and is very open and inviting of new frienships and socialization.
> 
> But is oblivious to the affects of certain behaviors or gestures on people. (Ne that imagines the ideal scenario where people still take the person seriously and not "judge"; thus “trying to have it both ways” <Ne). Then shadowy Fi defiantly maintains an inner sense of integrity, placing others in a double bind, and lashes out at and blames them and becomes willing to quickly cut them off when shown this information disowned from consciousness.
> 
> So you have Fe as behavior (“connecting”, etc) which is strong, but as a _perspective_, it is very weak. Fi is even less conscious (true integrity), yet the [reactive] behaviors associated with it seem to trump even Fe in the end.


Wouldn't this be a really unhealthy person though? I mean, to have the most repressed part of yourself manifesting like that so often just seems that way...


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## Eric B

Well, if a person is unhealthy, then the shadows will end up manifesting a lot! Any time the ego feels threatened, and the less healthy you are, the more that will occur. Like I recently acknowledged this for Asperger's (its affect on type was a long time question) here: Asperger's Syndrome and MBTI type.

But it was just for the sake of illustrating functions being possibly "strong" when expressed as behaviors, while being actually weak (unconscious), to point out to people not to be thrown off by cognitive process test results that seem out of "order". The more healthy you are, the less this will occur, but at times you do feel threatened, the shadows may seem to become stronger than the inferior and possibly even tertiary.


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## Eric B

Beebe's new book (https://erictb.wordpress.com/2016/09...hological-type) made a statement that really sheds light on the Demonic Personality Complex.

“it is *an image of undermining pathological narcissism"*, and that narcissistic men “will readily set up people to imagine that they can easily save him from his pathological narcissism by carrying for him *the integrity his demonic personality craves."* (p. 65-6. I had been helped somewhat, in trying to understand my own struggles, by his earlier book _Integrity in Depth_).

So we see now, *the demonic personality is the part of us or at least a main part of us that is narcissistic (enamored with the ego’s achievements), and also “seeks integrity”!* (As I've been pointing out recently, archetypal complexes are really "parts of us", or "lesser senses of 'I'" with the "ego" being simply the main centre of the conscious part of the psyche).

This explains a LOT for me. Like on my first post in the thread, on p1:


Eric B said:


> I notice for me, when I feel my boundaries are being crossed (like I am being denied the rights others have, which then is threatening the "inferior" Fe anima that wants to be accepted), I then passionately want to bring the threatening position down. (This is what the Demon does. The Trickster and Demon have been compared to a club we try to "bash" others with). Hence, I passionately argue against people like religious and political conservatives. (Even being a Christian myself, and seeing how it gets distorted when politicized. It comes off as very self righteous, and evil disguised as good).


The ego (at least in my case) looks to "winning" such conflicts, as defining "wholeness" (or "integrity"). Especially in cases like religion and politics, where those called "conservatives" often take on high "moral" poses, which they then judge others by. This is of course threatening to any ego holding a view opposing theirs, but when Ti is dominant, and this reflected by Fe as "inferior", it's particularly threatening. It's own shadow, the complex holding Fi, wants to think it's morally "whole" and thus possessing "integrity", and will thus go on the attack against anyone challenging this.
As we can see in this post, p5 http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...tml#post862757 it's all basically about defending "narcissism" from perceived judgments of others. (Worthy of note, is that Beebe uses Freud's negative terminology drawing from horrible stories such as Narcissus and Oedipus, for normal psychological dynamics as this, as evidence of demonic Ti; suggesting Freud was INFP. I just noticed in Hunziker's new book, where Jung is cited as developing his personality type theory in part to explain the different perspectives of himself compared to Freud and Adler).

But we still do not possess "wholeness", and thus this complex is also the one that seeks it out. The biggest way, is through our "anima" projections (being that, again, the anima is what the demon "shadows").
This is what happened with the girl from teens I mentioned on the following page (http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...n-demonic-fi-intps-post872949.html#post872949). Even though I wasn't terribly particular about body types before seeing her (just wanted a girl; _any_ girl, basically), her being quiet and nerdy like me, and me thinking I had a good shot at scoring with such a "catch", raised an expectation (which is the source of nearly all our emotional pain) that led to devastating disappointment the way that panned out. Obviously, guys' desire toward women often comes out in what's called "conquest", and we can see there this is basically about narcissism. The satisfaction of having the best, and what everyone else wants. And another part of sexual desire is "wholeness". We look for them to "complete" us (and they do, as far as producing children, and the family cell built around them, but it often becomes about us and our desires, with children ending up as an afterthought, if not "accident" a lot of the time).

Fast forward to a time between that last post and now, and the same sort of projection I was asking that girl to carry, gets placed on an online person (Actually, the one mentioned in my previous post above, this page. I've since found she's not an ENTP, but rather an INTJ with a mild dissociative condition, but that's a whole other story)A big part of the reason this got placed on her was for being a professed bisexual who never went all the way with a man, and seemed to lean more toward women (and afterward seems to have given up on relationships for the time being. I've found that INTJ women often remain single when older, because of their high standards, plus being very tough or strong willed for many men). 
I thought that was amazing, and as she was pretty well built too, it seemed basically unprecedented, as women like that can have any man they want, and usually take advantage of that, and of course end up with several partners (and many children) throughout their lifetime. (I'm seeing even most solid lesbians had forced themselves to try to be straight for a time). It was also from her being such a "tough" kind of person I never thought would like me, but we really clicked intellectually, which was totally unexpected). Previously, even the quiet "innocent"-looking girl from teens was apparently "fast", in addition to being ultimately unapproachable, at least to me! Going through a particularly rough "midlife crisis", where our whole life flashes before us (as the "larger Self" draws energy away from the ego and its positions or pursuits, as was explained to me), it sort of compensated for that, and all the others I knew or heard about.

What's worse, because of the complicated dynamics on both sides, I lost the friendship for a time, and had experienced a definite eruption of a “demonic” constellation, particularly at one point even naming it after one of the person’s own recognized deeply shadow subpersonalities (and thus, _identifying_, which this was all about).

It was right after this that I had read Beebe's _Integrity in Depth_, which points out how men often *“project their own need for anima integrity onto [women] as a wholesale demand for literal virginity and chastity"*; so that they "were forced into embodying wholeness and continuity in their concrete physical lives, living out the anima ideal in ways that were stultifying for their [own] individuation”. So as I came to realize, in my review of that book https://erictb.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/solar-vs-lunar-in-gender-dynamics-and-individuation/ this is what both of those projections of mine were about. Expecting this last person, especially, to “carry” a *[symbolic]* integrity (being "unconquered" in a heteronormative sense, plus someone tough and street-wise; both conveying an archetypal sense of "unbrokenness") for me was precisely what I was doing. To "possess" something like that through "*identification"* (even in friendship and not romantic or sexually) would definitely represent what the ego thinks would give it "wholeness", and would promote the desired "narcissism".

It was also during this time (3-4 years ago) I was reading Robert Johnson’s books on Jungian principles, and he mentioned “depression compensates for inflation”, and I then had to figure, what exactly was being “inflated” in my psyche. Of course, “inflation” is often associated with the tertiary archetype, and Beebe explains this in this book as well. But the main definition is _any_ attempt to “credit the ego-identity with content that actually belongs to these complexes”.
This would certainly be a kind of “narcissism”, and we see now that the demonic personality is directly involved with it. Take away ego’s self-importance, and it feels it is being destroyed, and thus will seek to somehow “destroy” the threat in turn.

Basically, I seem to feel “I am a good person if things go my way”. If they don’t, then the complex turns against myself. [Edit: you should see what I'm going through now, trying to edit, where the editor is all screwed up, and deletes all of the line breaks, and the editor switch doesn't work either!] It also goes after others who seem to be able to flout all the rules and get away with it (especially if they preach those rules themselves. Hence the “balance of power” issue, the person in the type field I clashed with, and I also recognized a whole “courtroom” and “judge” in my thinking years ago), or make themselves “good” while demonizing some group I identify with. (As in politics). Now, in midlife crisis, it seems all my “losses” in life just collapsed onto me, and I began looking for a model of “integrity” (meaning “untouched”, as in “unconquered”) to identify with.

If the ego could possess the “wholeness” the demon seeks, it would have a lot to be narcissistic about! So the demon’s “narcissism” _compensates for the vulnerability of the inferiority complex._ We feel inferior in a particular perspective in one attitude, but surmise that we’ve really mastered the perspective in the other attitude (which again is the right or left brain “alternative” or one of the “crow’s nests”). It’s really the furthest from consciousness of all, and when this is exposed, we again feel our very ego is being disintegrated, and then go on the attack.Basically, the “demonic personality” looks for “integrity” in all the wrong places, or goes about it the wrong way!


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## Eric B

Another example of demonic Fi projection in Ti dom's is projection onto what is supposed to be the opposite of the devil; God. Ti types are usually not the most religious folk, and because of my own experiences, I've struggled with it, but still hold on to it. A big part of the problem, again stems from the power issues, where the last place complex seeks a superficial "integrity" that it can be narcissistic about. 
A particular nasty demonic projection onto God came from one of my favorite music groups, that I began completely exploring a year ago, Steely Dan. The musical geniuses behind the group, Walter Becker and especially Donald Fagen, are likely ISTP's. Even though they have had some measure of success (with well known hits such as "Peg" and "Hey Nineteen"), they had always voiced frustration with the music industry, even titling their 2000 comeback album and its title track "_Two Against Nature_", which conveyed how "nature" (what I address in the article that contrasts it with "integrity" as Beebe had discussed) works through the industry favoring modern stuff and making it hard for their style to thrive. Even to get into the industry in the first place, Fagen had always wanted jazz, but had to modify the style to more of a country/rock sound in the early albums (so hard to imagine "Reelin' In the Years" was by them), and gradually shifted to the more jazzy sound (an interesting transition, which is what made them so unique) by the time we get to the signature _Aja_ album.

I can relate to this, being a low level civil servant, with all the ridiculous rules; (and probably another batch of bulletins and managerial scrutiny following this latest train crash in a nearby suburban agency); though their lives were basically everything in the world that mine wasn't, and that including all the adventures with women they sing about. 
Ti represents a [subjectively held] "archetypal model" of "truth" (as Beebe's new book points out from Jung), and while it is good for understanding the natural world, much of what people do (especially with its shadow, Te being the prevailing perspective) just doesn't make sense according to it. And this includes religion, with all its claims, and the expectations (we see that word again) it raises, of a Supreme Being. So this is the context in which we can understand what the Demonic Fi constellations will be about, now that we have a clearer definition of that complex.

So in 2003, I'm in a store and see or hear this second new album by them, with a song called "Godwhacker". Listening to it, it's about the singer and the devil going to heaven to take out God, for all the evil He's allowed in the world. Many fans passed around a rumor that it was metaphorical, for evil religious leaders like Saddam Hussein (particularly then, with 9-11 still fresh in our minds), which would figure considering how cryptic their lyrics are, but then they wrote a book (_Eminent Hipsters_) saying that no, this was literal, as the year before, Fagen's mother died horribly of Alzheimer's, and this was his reaction to it. 
So the song is basically attributing evil to God, while the Devil himself ("slinky red foot") becomes his ally. (I don't listen to the song, and don't even retain what exactly it sounded like. Yet it's been murder on my inferior Fe, being a Christian myself, in a Christian environment, and defending contemporary music from even more conservative fundamentalists in the past. I don't even tell anyone about the song. It's bad enough that they had named themselves after a fictional dildo!)

So it's clearly evidence of a demonic Fi projection. God doesn't work the way dominant Ti says He should, and so, not only is He rejected, but upon a very traumatic experience (tied with what we expect from Him; a world without pain and death) He is deemed internally "bad" and deserving of death. Of course, to hold a position like that, reflects lack of belief in Him. Still, the whole "idea" of Him (again, Jung/Beebe point out that all introverted functions are about the "idea" rather than external reality), we can still kill in a sort of musical effigy.
Again, I can understand this, but for one thing, since I perceive through Ne and not Se, I realize the possibility that He might not operate the way we expect, and so could still be real, even if it doesn't look like it. Still, it's frustrating going through a world of such pain and suffering, and most of the philosophies that aim to let us cop through it reflect a Te/Fi perspective. 
But then, Fi, as demon would also become a more helpful "daimon", if we developed more.

Beebe's point out how the solution lies in the interplay between the Dominant ("Hero" and inferior ("anima", the "gateway to the unconscious", and what we project onto whatever we feel will complete us). From this, I realized how the entire "spine" of personality (Dominant, inferior, Opposing personality [5th place complex which shadows or "backs up" the dom. in a "warrior" sort of fashion], and demon are involved in these things. So I put together how it plays out for a Ti. dom:

Demonic Fi: ego seeks “integrity” in a narcissistic view of itself as internally “good” (Fi) from having its way according to what makes sense (dom. Ti), and should be validated by what others feel about them (Fe). It will back itself up and attack opposition with common standards of logical order (Te), and if this does not work, the demonic archetype will turn on the ego as unworthy (-Fi)
If the ego were to develop (through integrating environmental values—Fe), it will find the integrity it seeks, and then the complex will become a “daimon”, allowing them to feel more content as a valuable person (+Fi)

So now, this remains the challenge for me, as I continue to sort through midlife.


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## Eric B

The dominant perspective, we tend to think would *solve all of the world’s problems if others adopted it.* For me, I’m constantly thinking if people would just “think for themselves” (and not rely on others, or computers or other objects [Te as “obstruction”], or emotions or perception functions for that matter either, to “do the thinking for them”), then problems would be solved.

So the demonic personality also seems to constellate when I’m forced to endure violations of my dominant perspective. Things that “don’t make sense” to my assessment of what’s true or false (because “truth”/“correctness” is often determined by a shallow, broad criteria of what’s simply agreed upon, or looks good on paper), and it affects me negatively somehow. (Hence, my perspective would have solved everything).
So I project onto them a reverse Fi judgment that if they were in my shoes (or anyone else whose situation I can identify with), THEN they would know how I feel and do things differently. (I’m always thinking this. It’s like the flipside of believing all problems would be solved by the dominant perspective).


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## sometimes

Interesting that it's called 'demonic' (lol) as for me when I act and feel more like an ISFP I usually find it feels good and more healthy. Whereas when I act unhealthy it is indeed more like an unhealthy ESFJ. I always think I'd do better to act more like an ISFP for me personally and that would solve some of my personal struggles. I know that's probably wrong and I should think more of wanting to be a healthy INTP obviously rather than another type but I have always felt an admiration and connection to ISFP as a type and ahem found them to be the most inspiring probably. I also find ENTJ inspiring in part but am more aware of their faults. Just that I would like to be able to look after myself better and not wallow in negative emotions and sitting around analysing things when it turns unhealthy so much but rather retain my positive qualities but still get on with things for myself more like them.


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## Doge

Matchbook said:


> There are some interesting insights and perspectives in this thread. Thank you Eric B, for strengthening my understanding of the "demonic" function, which I had been trying to understand better lately.
> 
> Perhaps, if I may, I'll add my INFP perspective on this.
> 
> With my Fi as dominant hero, my Te is anima, and my Ti is the hellion, if I may call it that instead (because I prefer the word, an Fi thing). In general, Thinking functions are stressful to me, but I will explain how the Ti demonstrates itself as the hellion rather than Te.
> 
> *Fi/Te Relationship:* Te is stressful because it often conflicts with the desires of Fi. Fi would like to stay inside and emotionally cogitate in its Fi/Ne partnership. Si supplements this partnership by triggering and suggesting relevant information or memories as I perceive the world, but Te would seem to directly threaten Fi because it requires external action in a non-emotional dimension, therefore it chafes the desires of Fi to marinate internally and stay consciously connected to its ideals.However, even though this threat may be perceived, there is a conscious or unconscious understanding that Te is the gateway to exactly what Fi wants...fruitive ideals, external realization of dreams.
> 
> Thus, a slow-developing and sometimes turbulent partnership grows with Te. At first, Te is utilized only as long as Fi is immediately gratified, such as in creative outlets, but if Fi gratification wanes, Te is blunted, and Fi may seek escape, and plans are left unfinished. Hopefully, in time, trust of Te will lead to Fi patience, and the fruits of such a partnership can be tasted and relished.
> 
> *Fi/Ti Relationship:* As for Ti, it poses an even greater threat than Te. Because Fi is composed of internal desires, values, and ideals that are formed through personal preference, Ti may be seen as a hellion that has come to infiltrate Fi and undermine it, exposing the irrationality of its views with its logical process, devaluing its hopes, stealing its dreams. Thus, when Fi ideals are activated, Ti may be highly guarded against, being seen as a saboteur to happiness. For a simplistic analogy, it would be like a diabetic who goes to a bakery with some friends. They have been talking about how delicious the cinnamon rolls are there, and everyone gets one, but the diabetic realizes that she forgot to bring an insulin shot, and so if she ate a roll now, she might experience dangerous blood sugar levels (Ti mortar shell explodes in her brain directly over Fi). This logical reality of her bodily functioning has seemingly undermined her desire, stealing her happiness. Such an analogy gives a simple illustration, but in larger examples, such as long-constructed dreams, world views, spirituality, etc, Ti may threaten to take down entire frameworks with its logical reality.
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> The truth is, for an INFP, Ti is not a hellion/demon; it is only perceived as such. If the INFP builds castles in the sky, and then Ti points out that castles are subject to gravity, the castles may start plummeting toward terra firma, but the truth is, if Ti can so easily undo Fi ideals, then the individual should understand that Ti is but a helpful instrument in refining some of the quixotic dreams of Fi, making it more possible for the individual to realize those dreams. If I am dreaming of a $5000 European vacation, yet financial analysis would show I can only afford $2000, otherwise I'd be in debt, even though Ti may then be received as something of a churlish imp, I ought to be thankful for its use.
> 
> ---------------
> 
> *INTP Relationship of Ti, Fe, and Fi:* I imagine that the principles involved in what I have shared apply to the INTP with their Ti, Fe, and Fi. Fe also threatens the preference and activities of Te through externalization in a non-logical mode, yet Fe will ultimately enable the activity of Ti to achieve societal fruition and usefulness. Fi may seem to be this emotionalized, senseless entity that threatens to come in and distract from the importance of Ti and undo its logical supremacy. Why should non-logical views and emotions ever take precedence over the logical reality of things? To answer this question as an INFP, I would assert that to allow Fi to partnership in an INTP's Ti affairs will better enable the fulfillment and health of the INTP. Taking care of one's own personal needs and desires in a less analytical way and letting them develop can bolster the health of the individual and give greater recognition to how Ti can be applied, among other reasons.


Apologies for reviving this decade old thread, but I just want to say that I greatly resonate with this post. As an INFP, I now better understand the relationship between my dominant and inferior functions (Fi/Te). 

Here is a personal analogy that I just thought of: 

As an Fi user you've always been wanting to live out your dreams since you were a kid, but then reality hits you during your late-teen or young adult years. Even though you are fully aware of what you want to pursue in life, you worry that you won't have the financial resources to engage in your creative interests. So, this is where your Te comes in and urges you to pick a new field of study that is partially or completely irrelevant from your interests, but nonetheless whose career paths will make substantial amount of money, all to satisfy the self-actualizing needs of Fi. This can become a quite painful process, but as this post states, if you can grow the tolerance for such a compromise between the ideals and goals of Fi and the action-based tactics of Te , _"the fruits of such a partnership can be tasted and relished"_. 
This is what I'm currently going through. I have immense creative interests that I want to pursue, but without a high-paying job I cannot make this happen. So, I believe right now I may need to depend on my Te even if I don't want to.


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## lww23

The Jungian Fi descriptions have focused on two aspects - 1) Fi doms have strict internal moral codes. Without relying on external norms, they construct their own codes of morality and follow them strictly. Fi can be perfection-seeking, which resembles Ti, the main difference being that such perfection is perfection in values and morality. 2) Fi doms experience deep and intense feelings inside. Due to introversion, an Fi dom might not be openly expressive of emotions, but they may feel more personally and more deeply. When making a decision, the Fi dom might first and foremost ask the question - How does that make me feel? The Fi type might be the most emotional type of all.

I would assert that instead of being selfish or moody, a healthy Fi dom can be people-oriented, harmony-seeking, and caring/nurturing just as much as Fe doms. The main difference is to be the E/I difference. An Fe type might be openly warm, emotional, and even dramatic, while an Fi type might be reserved, but their feelings tend to be more intense and more authentic. the Fe dom might echo the emotional atmosphere of the group (agreeable Fe), or try to align/direct/manipulate the group's feelings with their own/in their favor (disagreeable Fe). The Fi type's feelings might not be susceptible to the external atmosphere.

"I want them to feel the same way as I do." This is likely Fe.

Inferior Fe would still recognize social norms, others' feelings, and external emotional atmospheres, etc., but may not respond actively or timely with feelings. The feelings-based reaction or response tends to be delayed and somewhat primordial.

Since Fi is my demon function, I hardly experience it. To me, it is like Fi is cut off from my psyche. I don't generally think about it, nor does it catch much of my attention. It exists as if it did not.


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