# Relationship Red Flags!!!



## Drake

If you wake up and find her poking holes in your condems
When you meet her parents they seem to be in a hurry for you to marry their daughter
If she threatens to kill her pet during an argument
These are all red flags and you should run, far far away


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## Briggs

1. If they have nothing good to say about their ex's/ex's carry all the blame

2. They are blaming you 'checking out' people around you/of cheating constantly (cheater red flag...as in they are the cheating party)

3. Accuse you of being too honest/your honesty makes them upset




*great thread....I will have to think some more on this.


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## Jack Rabid

Oh!.. I can't believe I missed this one..

how about when they make up their own meanings for very basic words..

Like they say something kind of off putting.. and you call them out on it..
and they go on about how they didn't mean it that way.. to the point of saying they actually use the word differently.. RED FLAG :crazy:


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## Mikbert

lol, I see alot of red flags on myself here from the ladies.


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## InvisibleJim

If a man/woman has a list of red flags... RED FLAG.


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## screamofconscious

InvisibleJim said:


> If a man/woman has a list of red flags... RED FLAG.



Haha, I won't deny it, I'm screwed up...but I'm working on it. :tongue:


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## Jack Rabid

InvisibleJim said:


> If a man/woman has a list of red flags... RED FLAG.


You my good Sir, have obviously been lucky enough to have never been burned.. or have balls of steel and don't care.. you do make a valid point..


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## Rouge

I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing what you don't want or won't put up with again. It's just a matter of not letting such experiences of embittering you in future relationships.


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## Jack Rabid

Rouge said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing what you don't want or won't put up with again. It's just a matter of not letting such experiences of embittering you in future relationships.


 I would also add.. that red flags are in no way, deal breakers ..
They are just things to keep an eye on..


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## InvisibleJim

Rouge said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with knowing what you don't want or won't put up with again. It's just a matter of not letting such experiences of embittering you in future relationships.


Si si, I believe everyone exhibits annoying behaviour sometimes. If I got upset about the things that others do which annoy me I doubt I would have any relationships. Just breathe and relax. Breathe AND relax.


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## Rouge

InvisibleJim said:


> Si si, I believe everyone exhibits annoying behaviour sometimes. If I got upset about the things that others do which annoy me I doubt I would have any relationships. Just breathe and relax. Breathe AND relax.


Some INTJs are very in-tune with how others are feeling but I gotta say Jim, you're not one of them! :laughing:

Nobody is attacking anyone here. You should heed your own advice on relaxing.


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## pinkrasputin

Lilsnowy said:


> I agree with you, *Jack Rabid.* The ones you mention are indicative of controlling or or potentially abusive behaviours. I think you should listen to your body, what it's telling you when you feel uneasy or are in disbelief about what you just heard.
> 
> Others I would add are:
> Being offered friendly suggestions to how you might look better.
> Blames others for problems. "People are idiots."
> Seems to think everyone's jealous of him.
> Uses racial slurs or derogative comments about others of your gender.
> Goes from charming to monster in about three seconds.
> Gets upset when you spend time with family
> Seems happy when you're down.
> Seems down when you're happy or feeling accomplished
> Puts down your family.
> Doesn't want to meet your friends. Wishes you didn't spend so much time with them
> You start to feel uneasy expressing your opinion to this person
> Yuo start practicing in your head how you're going to say something to avoid his or her anger.


You explained my entire last relationship in incredible detail. Especially "happy when down" and vice versa. Wow this thread is painful for me. I've been studying abusive red flags for so long I want to puke on all that I know. I just can't date anymore.

Btw, I want to make mention that people are using the term "red flag" differently and it's causing some confusion on this thread. I can tell that when some people are speaking about "red flags", they are talking about "signs" that there is going to be conflict if they were to enter into a relationship with that person that displayed those "signs". 

Others, including myself when speaking of "red flags" are talking about "signs of an abuser". These should be non-negotiable as it could be dangerous, life threatening, or worse-spiritually and emotionally shattering on an individual to be with an abuser. 

I also want to clear up they ways I use the word "victim". I am a SURVIVOR of trauma, not a VICTIM. I learned and owned the behavior patterns that may have led me in that situation, I was strong enough to process the feelings and pain of that trauma. I am no longer a "victim" of the trauma because I am not being held "prisoner" by those memories and having them destroy my present life.

However, if others talk about "victims of domestic violence" or "victims of a hurricane" or "victim" of some other traumatic event, it doesn't bother me. I know the person talking is just showing compassion by saying "victim". 

I don't like when abusive people say something stupid like "there are no "victims" of domestic violence -they're just money grubbing bitches. It's the men/defendants who are the victims." I say this because I saw an earlier thread when someone mentioned a red flag being someone who instead of siding with the victims, sides with the abusers. 

I especially can't stand it when abusive people ACT like they are victims of all their circumstances and get us to feel sorry for them. And act like martyrs. They need to come down off their cross so they can look in a mirror. 

It's awful to be with someone like that in a relationship. They can't own up to their responsibility that caused things to happen. They are potentially a narcissist who cannot self reflect and lack empathy.

When I got further into the relationship with my ex, I was shocked to find out that he had been divorced 3 times. The last ex he had lived with for 3 years and whom he was always talking about to me wasn't even any of these 3 other women. I always heard that his last ex of 3 years was apparently "crazy" and "ran away with her therapist". So at first I felt bad(kinda). But then when I found out in addition he had also been divorced from 3 other women he explained that away, too. He had to divorce them because according to him they had all "cheated" on him. Once again, he was the "helpless victim". 

I was in shock and crying when I found out about the divorces and that he had hid it from me. He just kept saying "I thought I told you." HA! Like I'd forget something like that!

I was very hurt and confused because not only did 3 divorces go against my original list of qualities that told me a person could commit, I could see that he wouldn't admit that he was purposely lied by hiding that information by not telling me from the beginning, BEFORE I had fallen for him.

RED FLAGS: Remember sometimes they are hard to see when there's people out there who show only one side of themselves for 6 months. Some people just lie.

Some may even be able to hide themselves for a year. We all do it to some smaller extent: we put our best selves forward during the beginning "honeymoon" phase. And there are some of us "feelers" who fall sooner than others. So by the time we find out who the real person is, we may have already "fallen". It's sucks when you find out your partner is not who you thought they were and that in many ways they actually go against every value you have. 

You feel like a fool for giving so much. So sometimes it makes it that much harder to leave. Because you want to make sense out of all that you gave. You don't want to feel stupid or that you've wasted your time. You don't want to believe you lacked discernment when choosing to be with this person. You don't want to feel like an idiot who loved something you would have never loved if only you had known..... Plus it just hurts more when you leave because you've already fallen. Everything you thought the relationship was is actually only a lie. A dream fabricated in your mind. You would never recommend a friend stay in your situation. And now you are the pathetic "friend" in the destructive situation. 


Guess what? I still stayed in that relationship after the discovery of his "victim" mentality. I was a frog in a pot of boiling water. Even though i would even ask "yes, but what was YOUR responsibility in it all?" And would say "I don't want to eventually be another "crazy" ex to you". But I still stayed. I stayed even after I felt he was a liar. I stayed even though I really didn't want to be someone's 4th wife. My gut also said that he probably wasn't even into marriages anymore. That he would be just tired of it so now all he was going to do is "play around". Yeah, that's what my gut was telling me. But it STILL was easier to stay. The pain was going to be great when I admitted reality. 

I stayed and it got worse. Much worse. He wasn't satisfied until I would let him control me and my self esteem, self respect, and when my trust in the goodness of people was completely shattered. And guess what? He couldn't do that to me so he hated me even more. 

Oh don't get me wrong. I obviously have painful wounds. I finally know there is just some very bad seeds out there. But I will stay away from them. When i go back out there I won't let him win (although he almost did yesterday). But eventually I will be my loving self again. I have an innocent loving core that is very special, but over the years I do know some want to destroy it because they hate that they don't naturally have it. Or they hate that they've let other's destroy theirs. But someday I'm not going to be a critical negative mess. Because that would make me just like him. I won't let him have "all of me" and be his "victim" by pushing people away forever.

So back to relationships and noticing things in the beginning. I think a first disagreement and you how two get through it really can show who the other person is and what your compatibility is. But that has to be a disagreement that has to happen outside the "honeymoon" phase when people are being more real because they no longer have the stamina to act like something they're not. But staying detached until then is hard. Going slow, I believe is the answer.

Red flags? People can hide their behaviors so they can be hard to spot.

Okay. Going back into my shell...


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## Jack Rabid

pinkrasputin said:


> You explained my entire last relationship in incredible detail. Especially "happy when down" and vice versa. Wow this thread is painful for me. I've been studying abusive red flags for so long I want to puke on all that I know. I just can't date anymore.
> 
> Btw, I want to make mention that people are using the term "red flag" differently and it's causing some confusion on this thread. I can tell that when some people are speaking about "red flags", they are talking about "signs" that there is going to be conflict if they were to enter into a relationship with that person that displayed those "signs".
> 
> Others, including myself when speaking of "red flags" are talking about "signs of an abuser". These should be non-negotiable as it could be dangerous, life threatening, or worse-spiritually and emotionally shattering on an individual to be with an abuser.
> 
> I also want to clear up they ways I use the word "victim". I am a SURVIVOR of trauma, not a VICTIM. I learned and owned the behavior patterns that may have led me in that situation, I was strong enough to process the feelings and pain of that trauma. I am no longer a "victim" of the trauma because I am not being held "prisoner" by those memories and having them destroy my present life.
> 
> However, if others talk about "victims of domestic violence" or "victims of a hurricane" or "victim" of some other traumatic event, it doesn't bother me. I know the person talking is just showing compassion by saying "victim".
> 
> I don't like when abusive people say something stupid like "there are no "victims" of domestic violence -they're just money grubbing bitches. It's the men/defendants who are the victims." I say this because I saw an earlier thread when someone mentioned a red flag being someone who instead of siding with the victims, sides with the abusers.
> 
> I especially can't stand it when abusive people ACT like they are victims of all their circumstances and get us to feel sorry for them. And act like martyrs. They need to come down off their cross so they can look in a mirror.
> 
> It's awful to be with someone like that in a relationship. They can't own up to their responsibility that caused things to happen. They are potentially a narcissist who cannot self reflect and lack empathy.
> 
> When I got further into the relationship with my ex, I was shocked to find out that he had been divorced 3 times. The last ex he had lived with for 3 years and whom he was always talking about to me wasn't even any of these 3 other women. I always heard that his last ex of 3 years was apparently "crazy" and "ran away with her therapist". So at first I felt bad(kinda). But then when I found out in addition he had also been divorced from 3 other women he explained that away, too. He had to divorce them because according to him they had all "cheated" on him. Once again, he was the "helpless victim".
> 
> I was in shock and crying when I found out about the divorces and that he had hid it from me. He just kept saying "I thought I told you." HA! Like I'd forget something like that!
> 
> I was very hurt and confused because not only did 3 divorces go against my original list of qualities that told me a person could commit, I could see that he wouldn't admit that he was purposely lied by hiding that information by not telling me from the beginning, BEFORE I had fallen for him.
> 
> RED FLAGS: Remember sometimes they are hard to see when there's people out there who show only one side of themselves for 6 months. Some people just lie.
> 
> Some may even be able to hide themselves for a year. We all do it to some smaller extent: we put our best selves forward during the beginning "honeymoon" phase. And there are some of us "feelers" who fall sooner than others. So by the time we find out who the real person is, we may have already "fallen". It's sucks when you find out your partner is not who you thought they were and that in many ways they actually go against every value you have.
> 
> You feel like a fool for giving so much. So sometimes it makes it that much harder to leave. Because you want to make sense out of all that you gave. You don't want to feel stupid or that you've wasted your time. You don't want to believe you lacked discernment when choosing to be with this person. You don't want to feel like an idiot who loved something you would have never loved if only you had known..... Plus it just hurts more when you leave because you've already fallen. Everything you thought the relationship was is actually only a lie. A dream fabricated in your mind. You would never recommend a friend stay in your situation. And now you are the pathetic "friend" in the destructive situation.
> 
> 
> Guess what? I still stayed in that relationship after the discovery of his "victim" mentality. I was a frog in a pot of boiling water. Even though i would even ask "yes, but what was YOUR responsibility in it all?" And would say "I don't want to eventually be another "crazy" ex to you". But I still stayed. I stayed even after I felt he was a liar. I stayed even though I really didn't want to be someone's 4th wife. My gut also said that he probably wasn't even into marriages anymore. That he would be just tired of it so now all he was going to do is "play around". Yeah, that's what my gut was telling me. But it STILL was easier to stay. The pain was going to be great when I admitted reality.
> 
> I stayed and it got worse. Much worse. He wasn't satisfied until I would let him control me and my self esteem, self respect, and when my trust in the goodness of people was completely shattered. And guess what? He couldn't do that to me so he hated me even more.
> 
> Oh don't get me wrong. I obviously have painful wounds. I finally know there is just some very bad seeds out there. But I will stay away from them. When i go back out there I won't let him win (although he almost did yesterday). But eventually I will be my loving self again. I have an innocent loving core that is very special, but over the years I do know some want to destroy it because they hate that they don't naturally have it. Or they hate that they've let other's destroy theirs. But someday I'm not going to be a critical negative mess. Because that would make me just like him. I won't let him have "all of me" and be his "victim" by pushing people away forever.
> 
> So back to relationships and noticing things in the beginning. I think a first disagreement and you how two get through it really can show who the other person is and what your compatibility is. But that has to be a disagreement that has to happen outside the "honeymoon" phase when people are being more real because they no longer have the stamina to act like something they're not. But staying detached until then is hard. Going slow, I believe is the answer.
> 
> Red flags? People can hide their behaviors so they can be hard to spot.
> 
> Okay. Going back into my shell...


WOW!!! thanks for that.. sadly I see myself and my last partner in much of what you typed..
I don't understand how people who love each other can do these kind of things..
I guess we all carry some baggage.. and if we have been hurt too many times.. it's too easy to go into self preservation mode..
I don't mean to be abusive.. nor did she.. but it's obvious that is exactly what we did..

I hope she recovers as I am doing.. and that we can be friends some day.. 
Also in hindsight.. i started this thread with her in mind.. and that was just wrong.. I don't hate her, quite the opposite, really.. and I played a pretty big role in things going to hell.. and I am sure she has her own list of RED FLAGS against me..


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## Bett

*Red flags* in both meanings for me:
- tries to do everything "right", instantly gets angsty if fails. Tries to "plan" your relationship, dates etc. to a creepy extent (means they're just trying to look nice according to society's perceptions, probably has a shallow view on things and the social skills of a piece of rock. Might also be an abusive person trying to seek sympathy (angst phase)/make you fall in their trap (making things right phase))
- constantly seeks praise/sympathy through insecure comments or descriptions of how they are a victim (you might end up being their mother and/or the person has a victim mentality/tries to make you feel sorry for them to abuse you)
- obviously tries to win you through awkward compliments on you (is seeking for an insecure prey whose self esteem relies 100% on others, will likely crush it later on)
- requires ulterior reasons for whatever you do or refuse to do. For example, if you want to go home and say it, they will be offended: accepts reasons like "my roommate/parents told me to come early" or "I can't make noise in the corridor in the night, neighbours might wake up" will do, "I want to" or "I just feel like it" will not and are most likely taken personally (in best case they're just an easily butthurt person, in the less nice case they're a narcissist who only sees things from their own perspective, in the worst case this can be a sign of the fact that they lack empathy skills and are the kind of person to have morals of the kind "it's wrong because the law says so" - _very likely abusive_)

The last one might seem just a bit strange at first, but it can be a sign of something being majorly wrong. I recommend you to be _very much afraid_ if the principle is applied on important questions (like ones regarding sex) or later on in the relationship.


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## The Great One

Red flags:


Has had a lot of bad relationships
Often women whom were abused as children I watch out for, because many tend to have abusive tendecies themselves (not all, just some)
If they were raped and sodomized as a child they often come out crazy as well (again but not always)
If they tell you about a list of mental disorders that they have right off the bat
If they constantly bring up violent things that they've done in the past, then that's really bad
If they were recently raped, then that might be bad because they might have a very hard time having sex again. Many women experience horrible flashbacks during sex with a love partner after recent rape incidents.
If they are overly controlling right from the get-go, or are overly manipulative.

That's my list right there. Sadly, I most often find myself falling for women whom have many of these red flags.


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## mrscientist

Excelent necromancy right there.


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## SlowPoke68

Yes, find someone without any of these red flags you've found the perfect partner. But you're never going to find that person because they are boring/married/too young/too old/not physically attractive. :happy:

I think everyone gets and gives "red flags". If you find enough to like about the person otherwise you can educate them through some of the faux pas that are listed here. But not all of them. Some you either need to take or leave. 

So the red flags I wish I had paid heed are ones inherent in the relationship--not on one partner or the other. Two good people can have a bad relationship:


If you start having sex mainly because you've run out of things to talk about.
If after parting company you feel ill from stress or just so relieved at being by yourself again.
If you have to argue yourself into staying with the person.
If you find that when you get together you "need" to drink or smoke pot (even just moderately) to be comfortable with each other.
If you are presented with ultimatums.


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## Rogue Eagle

I would add (from male perspective):

- Has no female friends. 

- Spends more time with your friends than you do

- Doesn't ever shut the fuck up about ex's. 

- She always only tells you one side of an argument.


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## INFJGirlie

Aerorobyn said:


> If he asks you to marry him after being together only one month.  True story. It happens.


My dad asked my mom to marry her after 2 weeks and they are still married after 35 years....I think it depends on the person.


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## Rogue Eagle

INFJGirlie said:


> My dad asked my mom to marry her after 2 weeks and they are still married after 35 years....I think it depends on the person.


yeah I've heard of cases like this where it works out. 

Perhaps it's the difference between being Desperate and Brave


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## screamofconscious

Drake said:


> When you meet her parents they seem to be in a hurry for you to marry their daughter



Funny I missed this before....you know Drake, my mom was incredibly interested in us marrying quickly. I think she even threatened to shoot you....:laughing:


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## INFJGirlie

People who are always looking for red flags and can't live in the moment is a red flag. Everyone has ticks, it's the ones that you can live with that make a relationship work.


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## The Great One

SlowPoke68 said:


> Yes, find someone without any of these red flags you've found the perfect partner. But you're never going to find that person because they are boring/married/too young/too old/not physically attractive. :happy:
> 
> I think everyone gets and gives "red flags". If you find enough to like about the person otherwise you can educate them through some of the faux pas that are listed here. But not all of them. Some you either need to take or leave.
> 
> So the red flags I wish I had paid heed are ones inherent in the relationship--not on one partner or the other. Two good people can have a bad relationship:
> 
> 
> If you start having sex mainly because you've run out of things to talk about.
> If after parting company you feel ill from stress or just so relieved at being by yourself again.
> If you have to argue yourself into staying with the person.
> If you find that when you get together you "need" to drink or smoke pot (even just moderately) to be comfortable with each other.
> If you are presented with ultimatums.





INFJGirlie said:


> People who are always looking for red flags and can't live in the moment is a red flag. Everyone has ticks, it's the ones that you can live with that make a relationship work.


I would agree with both of you. It seems impossible to find someone with virtually no red flags. It just depends on if you can make it work together in the end is all.


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## pinkrasputin

This is interesting. My relationship red flags as I stated earlier are actually published by a Domestic Violence organization I work with. In my experience, I've had to get better and better at spotting the "red flags". These aren't red flags that may point out simply that you two may not work together, they are the red flags to spot abusive behavior early and before getting involved. One or two simple oversights of these behaviors don't simply have the ability to result in heart break, it could result in extreme emotional damage or ultimately death. 

It's not about "working things out" if a person is controlling or destructive to another person physically, emotionally, financially, or spiritually. That is assuming that you can eventually _change_ the other person's behavior. No, the last thing you should do is overlook very serious signs and continue to proceed with a relationship with potentially dangerous person.

The courtship and getting to know a person is so important. Taking your time is important. Did you know that most violently abusive relationships have 1 of 3 scenarios in common?

1. The couple marry within the first six months of knowing each other
2. The couple move in together within the first six months of knowing their partner
3. The couple gets pregnant within the first six months of knowing their partner.

The waiting and courtship are a very serious parts about dating. Many incredibly abusive people can hide who they really are for a period of time at the beginning of a relationship. Getting locked into a relationship WAY too early before you really know the other person could have serious consequences. And obviously overlooking serious "red flags" could have devastating consequences. 

When a person with serious control or violence issues first approaches a potential partner, very rarely do they say, "Hey I really like you. I would like to be with you. Btw, I will eventually hit you some day and leave you in the gutter. I will also abandon you and the children while robbing you of everything else you own. I have one seriously long track record of being abusive." No, this is rarely their approach. That is why "red flags" can help pick out potentially dangerous partners and to stay away from them BEFORE you fall for them. It gets even harder to leave once you've fallen in love.

On a lighter note and in regards to personal preferences in a partner, I don't understand why people take such issue with others having standards about who they will or won't date. If I say I only want to date runners or men who are pastry chefs, that is completely my right. It's not like I come here to the forum and bitch or moan about being alone or not being able to find a man. Who am I hurting by keeping my standards? Not me. Who has something to gain when I drop my standards? Usually that isn't me either.

Meh, I'm open enough. Too open actually. I naturally give people the benefit of the doubt and work extremely hard in relationships before I give up. Having standards and spotting "red flags" protects me and prevents me from wasting my time.

It's okay to know what you want out of life or in a partner. :wink:


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## rowingineden

Red flags:

She LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
She doesn't comprehend the concept of honesty
She winces and says "ow" when someone on TV stubs their toe
She is obsessed with Jane Austen and the 19th century. She likes to pretend to have a fan to giggle and hide behind. She wants you to constantly use 19th century speech.
MAJOR RED FLAG: If she never talks much about herself, never opens up to you.
She constantly talks about her ex and somebody else she recently had a crush on, and her eyes sparkle at the mention of these two people.
If you ask her to do anything for you, she throws a fit and calls you selfish. Even if it would take very little time or effort.
She says "No!", "Stop!" or "Ow!" a lot in bed, but she doesn't literally mean any of those things. She is ashamed of anything sexual.
She has no impulse control.
She constantly says, "I don't deserve you,"
She is jealous/possessive and doesn't even want you to look at anybody else.
You are at the bottom of her priority list. Presents are always last-minute gifts and all about HER and what she likes.
You are afraid of her giant dog because you were once bitten by a similar-looking dog as a child, and she is just offended that you are afraid of her dog, instead of sympathetic about your fear.
She is kind and generous to everyone, except for you.
She is so nervous in public that you can't ever go out together.
She is really into black magic, voodoo, etc.
She is materialistic, aesthetic, shallow, and she likes "chaos".
She used to be a Tea Party libertarian.
She doesn't know what she wants or what she feels well enough to ever describe them clearly.
The sentences she forms rarely make any kind of sense. You constantly have to ask her what she means and then explain why what she said was unclear.
She says that polyamory is okay and wants to sleep with other people, but when you go on a date, she gets jealous.
She's depressed and won't take her medication.
She's VERY over or underweight.
If you say she is beautiful or that you love her, she thinks you are lying.
She has only ever slept with someone the opposite sex of you before, but she's thrilled to have swung over to your side. :dry:
She wants you to be completely dominant in every aspect of the relationship, completely control her.
She flirts with someone else and wants you to be jealous.
She will do anything to avoid conflict.
She cares more about winning an argument than she does about solving a problem between the two of you.
She wants to go WAY too fast.
She tries to break up with you twice a week.
She shows up at your house with her gas tank already on "E".
She never has any money, which means you have to pay for EVERYTHING for her. But she tries to turn you down, but she needs the money. -_-
She is always late.
Whenever you have plans, she tries to pull you away from your friends, change venues, etc.
Yes, all of these are from experience. :crazy: Two girls. Only two. I sure know how to pick 'em.


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## northernsky

If you go to their house and there are big holes smashed in the walls and doors and they tell you that they were made by their "crazy ex" who was very volatile. Uh...no, actually he did it and will be doing the same to your house one day. :frustrating:


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## obz900

SeekJess said:


> infps are moody RED FLAG


I disagree. I am an INFP, and dated someone(ESFx I believe) for quite awhile. She was much more moody than I, and sometimes it seems, for no good reason. I'll admit I became very upset a few times during the relationship, but only if there was something significant going on. I was never upset just for the sake of being upset.


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## Promethea

Surely it all must be this simple, so I'm trying to think of some general 'red flags..' Ah yes. Has several irl friends of the opposite sex, or still hangs out with exs. They end up fucking in many cases.


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## mrscientist

So in your opinion men and women can not just be friends? And going from lovers to friends is not possible?

I am not challenging your claims, i just want your opinion on the matter.


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## Promethea

mrscientist said:


> So in your opinion men and women can not just be friends? And going from lovers to friends is not possible?
> 
> I am not challenging your claims, i just want your opinion on the matter.


Maybe its just the environments I have been in, but most of them can not be completely platonic without at least desirous thoughts occurring. Have a few drinks together and he ends up with her panties in his bed the next day. Not saying this has happened to me personally, as I would not date someone who would put me in that position. These are my observations of other people. Communal animals who all share fleas.


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## SlowPoke68

mrscientist said:


> So in your opinion men and women can not just be friends? And going from lovers to friends is not possible?


It's boys and girls. They go from friends to lovers to fb's to kinda-lovers to friends to mortal enemies and everything in between with no reservations at all. Just a human thing.

Any woman who chooses to be with me needs to accept that many of my friends and intimates are women. I've "been with" certain of them at one time or another, which is something that is understood but doesn't get discussed. In exchange I accept that she's got friends as well.


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## noosabar

Feeling attracted to a member of the opposite sex.Ten four captain, Thats a big red one

I dont trust you. I think thats a red flag

You have a disease. That one too

I have nothing to give you. Definatley

Your not my knight in shining armour. Ouch! think that one went up my ass sideways.

Your dumb. Yep


----------



## Psilocin

Promethea said:


> Maybe its just the environments I have been in, but most of them can not be completely platonic without at least desirous thoughts occurring. Have a few drinks together and he ends up with her panties in his bed the next day. Not saying this has happened to me personally, as I would not date someone who would put me in that position. These are my observations of other people. Communal animals who all share fleas.


Shit happens.
It's happened to me with a good friend of mine. 
Taking her home the morning after was real awkward...


----------



## pinkrasputin

SlowPoke68 said:


> It's boys and girls. They go from friends to lovers to fb's to kinda-lovers to friends to mortal enemies and everything in between with no reservations at all. Just a human thing.
> 
> Any woman who chooses to be with me needs to accept that many of my friends and intimates are women. I've "been with" certain of them at one time or another, which is something that is understood but doesn't get discussed. In exchange I accept that she's got friends as well.


I find that the constant threat of me having back ups and flaunting them really helps keep my partner in line. :crazy:


----------



## amanda32

SlowPoke68 said:


> It's boys and girls. They go from friends to lovers to fb's to kinda-lovers to friends to mortal enemies and everything in between with no reservations at all. Just a human thing.
> 
> Any woman who chooses to be with me needs to accept that many of my friends and intimates are women. I've "been with" certain of them at one time or another, which is something that is understood but doesn't get discussed. In exchange I accept that she's got friends as well.


I think that would all change if you fell in love wouldn't it?

(I think there's a difference btw, in loving someone and _being in love_ with someone).


----------



## GiGi

HUGE RED FLAG WARNING

If you meet their family and those folks are nuts, that is a red flag
Please don't ignore this because the chances that you actually found a normal person out of a family of crazies is NOT realistic. Even if you did luck up and get the good apple, remember that these people will be your in laws and possible grandparents to your children. Ask yourself if things got serious and you married this person and had children, then you died, would you want these folks caring for your kids? Hell, would you trust them to care for your dog? Remember these wackos raised the person you are dating. What secret mental issues is the person you are dating suppressing? At the least you will have to deal with them because you are with a member of their family. And I can tell you that it is NO FUN realizing that you are afraid to make sudden movements in a room full of unstable people.


----------



## SlowPoke68

amanda32 said:


> I think that would all change if you fell in love wouldn't it?
> 
> (I think there's a difference btw, in loving someone and _being in love_ with someone).


Agreed, there is a difference. But not enough of a difference for me to give up the friendship and support I get from friends I intend to keep regardless of gender. 



pinkrasputin said:


> I find that the constant threat of me having back ups and flaunting them really helps keep my partner in line. :laughing:


I've had that flaunted on me by women through the years, but I always figure that if I were that easily manipulated I wouldn't keep her respect. So when I hear something like "I really need to spend some time with my old friend Mario. He's going through a divorce and really needs some support", I am very supportive. Then I tell her that while she's visiting with Mario I'll call my old friend Jennifer and ask how things are going.

But then, I trade in wives more frequently than I do cars, so grain of salt :wink:


----------



## pinkrasputin

SlowPoke68 said:


> Agreed, there is a difference. But not enough of a difference for me to give up the friendship and support I get from friends I intend to keep regardless of gender.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had that flaunted on me by women through the years, but I always figure that if I were that easily manipulated I wouldn't keep her respect. So when I hear something like "I really need to spend some time with my old friend Mario. He's going through a divorce and really needs some support", I am very supportive. Then I tell her that while she's visiting with Mario I'll call my old friend Jennifer and ask how things are going.
> 
> But then, I trade in wives more frequently than I do cars, so grain of salt :wink:


How many times were you married? My ex was divorced 3 times. But he never did any parading. I wish he would have though, especially with his ex's. I totally will judge a guy based on his ex's. If I find that they are ugly, I'm so outta there. I'll feel played, and I don't want some homely looking chick's hand-me-downs. Not cool. 

And I was joking about the parading of potentials. The world is my "back up" as I assume it is his too. So I'm cool.


----------



## Psilocin

pinkrasputin said:


> I find that the constant threat of me having back ups and flaunting them really helps keep my partner in line. :crazy:


Behavior like that pisses me off to no end.
I'm usually pretty chill, but once a chick figures out my hot button, jealousy, I can tell... Several have used it against me.
_I don't take well to anyone trying to control me._
I'm weird and largely unconcerned- If I'm willing to be jealous, that's one of my indicators that I, y'know, give a shit about my partner. And I find it to be an emotional betrayal of sorts when they pull that kind of thing. 

Once that happens, I see it as an attempt at forcing one's will on me through manipulation, as well as that betrayal of one of my emotions.
My retort is to snap back any control I let them have over me. Anger doesn't take over. Utter apathy does. Apathy is a much more destructive force than anger could ever be. I'll tell you that. It immediately snuffs out everything. Anger just makes it something bigger and more convoluted. Once you see someone as nothing, they feel like nothing. 

2/5 girlfriends agree- They fucking hate me for everything I am. X)


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## pinkrasputin

Psilocin said:


> Behavior like that pisses me off to no end.
> I'm usually pretty chill, but once a chick figures out my hot button, jealousy, I can tell... Several have used it against me.
> _I don't take well to anyone trying to control me._
> I'm weird and largely unconcerned- If I'm willing to be jealous, that's one of my indicators that I, y'know, give a shit about my partner. And I find it to be an emotional betrayal of sorts when they pull that kind of thing.
> 
> Once that happens, I see it as an attempt at forcing one's will on me through manipulation, as well as that betrayal of one of my emotions.
> My retort is to snap back any control I let them have over me. Anger doesn't take over. Utter apathy does. Apathy is a much more destructive force than anger could ever be. I'll tell you that. It immediately snuffs out everything. Anger just makes it something bigger and more convoluted. Once you see someone as nothing, they feel like nothing.
> 
> 2/5 girlfriends agree- They fucking hate me for everything I am. X)


Jealousy would never work on me as I don't like to be in the position of competition. If I were you, I wouldn't show a response at all. And then just drop them. They are playing games. Is this what you mean?

Usually I just make the comment "Who am I to stand in the way of true love?" and then bow out gracefully whether they are kicking and screaming or not. I don't like that crap either and try to nip it in the bud.


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## Finaille

rowingineden said:


> Red flags:
> 
> She LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
> She doesn't comprehend the concept of honesty
> She winces and says "ow" when someone on TV stubs their toe
> She is obsessed with Jane Austen and the 19th century. She likes to pretend to have a fan to giggle and hide behind. She wants you to constantly use 19th century speech.
> MAJOR RED FLAG: If she never talks much about herself, never opens up to you.
> She constantly talks about her ex and somebody else she recently had a crush on, and her eyes sparkle at the mention of these two people.
> If you ask her to do anything for you, she throws a fit and calls you selfish. Even if it would take very little time or effort.
> She says "No!", "Stop!" or "Ow!" a lot in bed, but she doesn't literally mean any of those things. She is ashamed of anything sexual.
> She has no impulse control.
> She constantly says, "I don't deserve you,"
> She is jealous/possessive and doesn't even want you to look at anybody else.
> You are at the bottom of her priority list. Presents are always last-minute gifts and all about HER and what she likes.
> You are afraid of her giant dog because you were once bitten by a similar-looking dog as a child, and she is just offended that you are afraid of her dog, instead of sympathetic about your fear.
> She is kind and generous to everyone, except for you.
> She is so nervous in public that you can't ever go out together.
> She is really into black magic, voodoo, etc.
> She is materialistic, aesthetic, shallow, and she likes "chaos".
> She used to be a Tea Party libertarian.
> She doesn't know what she wants or what she feels well enough to ever describe them clearly.
> The sentences she forms rarely make any kind of sense. You constantly have to ask her what she means and then explain why what she said was unclear.
> She says that polyamory is okay and wants to sleep with other people, but when you go on a date, she gets jealous.
> She's depressed and won't take her medication.
> She's VERY over or underweight.
> If you say she is beautiful or that you love her, she thinks you are lying.
> She has only ever slept with someone the opposite sex of you before, but she's thrilled to have swung over to your side. :dry:
> She wants you to be completely dominant in every aspect of the relationship, completely control her.
> She flirts with someone else and wants you to be jealous.
> She will do anything to avoid conflict.
> She cares more about winning an argument than she does about solving a problem between the two of you.
> She wants to go WAY too fast.
> She tries to break up with you twice a week.
> She shows up at your house with her gas tank already on "E".
> She never has any money, which means you have to pay for EVERYTHING for her. But she tries to turn you down, but she needs the money. -_-
> She is always late.
> Whenever you have plans, she tries to pull you away from your friends, change venues, etc.
> Yes, all of these are from experience. :crazy: Two girls. Only two. I sure know how to pick 'em.


Oh my goodness, that is quite the list!  Well, I have learned that developing a friendship with the opposite sex for a while (and JUST a friendship, NO MORE!!!) that really helps you see the bad side of the person before you actually choose to commit to them. Not that they are going to be perfect, but I have time to make the decision whether I would want to deal with something the rest of my life or not.

Red flags are a little difficult for me to determine. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, mainly because my background is horrible and I have decided to make many changes to my lifestyle. I don't think it's fair for people to judge me for the things I USED to do, so I don't think it's right to judge others. But this is where the friendship thing is beautiful: you have all the time to see what the person is truly like in a relationship (romantic or non-romantic). You can determine what things would be a red flag. My only point is everybody is different, so even if two people did the same negative thing, it depends on how they handle it. That is what makes or breaks a red flag.


----------



## rowingineden

Finaille said:


> Oh my goodness, that is quite the list!  Well, I have learned that developing a friendship with the opposite sex for a while (and JUST a friendship, NO MORE!!!) that really helps you see the bad side of the person before you actually choose to commit to them. Not that they are going to be perfect, but I have time to make the decision whether I would want to deal with something the rest of my life or not.
> 
> Red flags are a little difficult for me to determine. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, mainly because my background is horrible and I have decided to make many changes to my lifestyle. I don't think it's fair for people to judge me for the things I USED to do, so I don't think it's right to judge others. But this is where the friendship thing is beautiful: you have all the time to see what the person is truly like in a relationship (romantic or non-romantic). You can determine what things would be a red flag. My only point is everybody is different, so even if two people did the same negative thing, it depends on how they handle it. That is what makes or breaks a red flag.


Ideally, I would want that. The problem is that, my existing friends do not have the qualities I am looking for in a relationship, people you already know as friends generally only think of you as a friend and dating would be incomprehensible to them anyway, and when I meet someone whom I could date who would date me, too, things immediately go to the dating. :crazy: Wanting to build a casual relationship first would be quite offensive to them, like I was saying that there was something about them that made them not relationship material, they'd read it as rejection. Siiigh.


----------



## The Great One

pinkrasputin said:


> Jealousy would never work on me as I don't like to be in the position of competition. If I were you, I wouldn't show a response at all. And then just drop them. They are playing games. Is this what you mean?
> 
> Usually I just make the comment "Who am I to stand in the way of true love?" and then bow out gracefully whether they are kicking and screaming or not. I don't like that crap either and try to nip it in the bud.


Really? I've never met a girl that jealously didn't work on. I guess that it doesn't work on you because you get a lot of guys lusting over you because of your looks and have a lot of other options huh?


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## rowingineden

If someone tries to make me jealous, I get very annoyed and that's probably going to be the tipping point in the relationship. I may not act right away, I might stew over things for a while, but it's probably going to lead directly to me ending the relationship. I simply dislike it when somebody tries to manipulate me. I actually do not seem to get jealous; I don't even really understand the emotion, and especially not people who seem to think it has any kind of merit. If I care about someone, I pretty much want them to do whatever's right for them, be with whomever is right for them, whether it's me, me and one or more others, or just one or more others in exclusion of me.


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## pinkrasputin

NatetheGreat said:


> Really? I've never met a girl that jealously didn't work on. I guess that it doesn't work on you because you get a lot of guys lusting over you because of your looks and have a lot of other options huh?


No it's because I have self confidence and I am not insecure. I know I'm good, if a person wants something or someone else, it's in my favor if he goes away. I don't want a half assed relationship. I only want someone to be with me that wants to be with me. 

Jealousy is a turn off and is childish. I'm not talking about in a healthy way either. 

Or perhaps I'm just narcissistic. I walk around thinking I'm the shit and don't live in fear of him wanting someone or something else. :laughing:

Also, it's unfair for a man to ask me to compete with another woman. My brain doesn't work that way. And it won't work to their benefit if they try to do that with me. I'd just rather not have the relationship.


----------



## The Great One

pinkrasputin said:


> No it's because I have self confidence and I am not insecure. I know I'm good, if a person wants something or someone else, it's in my favor if he goes away. I don't want a half assed relationship. I only want someone to be with me that wants to be with me.
> 
> Jealousy is a turn off and is childish. I'm not talking about in a healthy way either.
> 
> Or perhaps I'm just narcissistic. I walk around thinking I'm the shit and don't live in fear of him wanting someone or something else. :laughing:
> 
> Also, it's unfair for a man to ask me to compete with another woman. My brain doesn't work that way. And it won't work to their benefit if they try to do that with me. I'd just rather not have the relationship.


lol, so in other words you are basically extremely vain and self-righteous?


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## Calvaire

-He wont introduce you to his family,even though he's already met yours.(Is someone afraid their family might tell you about his OTHER girlfriend, you know the one he's been with for awhile now)
-He tells you that your innocent like a little girl and he finds it sexy.
-He wants to have a threesome with another guy,and you mentioned another girl and he's 'not into it' (that happened to my friend,then he eventually came out to her)
-At first he was really sweet to a little kid and you liked that then the kid walked away and he says " I fucking hate kids"
(Oh well now I might just fucking hate you)
-Animals seem to hate him.
-Rude to waiters.(You can tell a lot about someone with how they act towards waiters)
-


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## SlowPoke68

NatetheGreat said:


> lol, so in other words you are basically extremely vain and self-righteous?


LOL, nice troll.

She sound like a woman. Maybe you're comparing her to girls? Girls let themselves be manipulated sometimes. They learn.


----------



## The Great One

SlowPoke68 said:


> LOL, nice troll.
> 
> She sound like a woman. Maybe you're comparing her to girls? Girls let themselves be manipulated sometimes. They learn.


No, me and her are cool like that. She knows that I was only busting her chops. I highly doubt that she will be offended.


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## pinkrasputin

NatetheGreat said:


> lol, so in other words you are basically extremely vain and self-righteous?


Yes! Finally. How long did it take? 

Is that going to affect the way you feel about me now?


----------



## twinklestars

Flags for me are of from expierence:
You remind me of my Mother
I want to live on my parents land next to my famiy, if you wont I will divorce you
My parents do things this away and have the best relationship I have ever seen.
Calls mom before his feet hit the floor or says morning to his family OHH his parents are his family
Says his mother is a saint on the first date
or
complains your nothing like his mother
your ways are wrong and mine are right


----------



## The Great One

pinkrasputin said:


> Yes! Finally. How long did it take?
> 
> Is that going to affect the way you feel about me now?


Yes, I completely hate your guts now. lol, jk.


----------



## Raichan

If I feel that the person is seriously starting to brainwash me..RED FLAG

If I feel like that person is acting as if he is better looking and smarter than others..RED FLAG

I just want one who's humble and understanding enough, that's all.


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## vel

If after exchanging a few emails and having 3 conversations of completely non-romantic content he tells you he just broke up with his girlfriend and offers to move across the globe because you're the girl of his dreams - red flag

If you see him blow up after exchanging a few jokes with other people saying that they disrespect him - red flag

If he comes to the party, immediately gets very very drunk, and starts flirting and groping girls and guys - red flag

If he tries to manipulate you to weasel out of doing a boring chore himself - red flag

If you tell him he has done something wrong and he blows up saying that you sound just like his mother and then suddenly starts courting you - big and blooming red flag


----------



## WidowsAndOrphans

Slider said:


> If she has sex with you on the third date.


Just specifically the third date, or at any time prior to the fourth date? If you're being earnest, I'm curious. Do men really question the potential for a long-term relationship if a woman puts out early on?


----------



## skycloud86

WidowsAndOrphans said:


> Just specifically the third date, or at any time prior to the fourth date? If you're being earnest, I'm curious. Do men really question the potential for a long-term relationship if a woman puts out early on?


I think different men will have different opinions on that and, as for "putting out", grown uip men will respect women more and wait until they are ready, so with them there is no need for her to "put out". It's a shame that we even have such a term, because it shows the double standards inherent in society regarding male and female sexuality. Do we ever hear of men putting out? No, because they are expected by society to be the ones to benefit from putting out. I have no idea if gay/bisexual men use such a term.


----------



## AEIOU

WidowsAndOrphans said:


> Just specifically the third date, or at any time prior to the fourth date? If you're being earnest, I'm curious. *Do men really question the potential for a long-term relationship if a woman puts out early on?*


It depends on how horny we are.

Actually, I've observed that some women like to go at it early, get it over with, in order to determine whether or not the guy is capable of it or if he is just a boorish selfish bastard. Also, some woman place a very high priority on sexual satisfaction/performance. They want to know if the guy can and will keep it up long enough to satisfy not just himself, but her too.


----------



## ForsakenMe

1. If he treats his mom like shit, he won't treat you well either. (Unless his mom is abusive and he's just standing up for himself...)
2. He has possessive, jealous female friends. Sounds like the case of him dating all of them and reassuring them that you're just a "FWB" and that he loves them... Or he's a player.
3. He tells you horror stories of how he dumps his exes and how he made them misreable.
4. He thinks his exes are all bitches and he hates them.
5. He gets angry very easily.
6. He has an untreated mental illness.
7. He abuses children and animals.
8. Arrogant and treats people lower than him.
9. Controlling, you can't cut your hair without his permission, you can't wear certain clothing, etc.
10. He can do what ever the fuck he pleases, but God forbid you do anything he does because then he'll frame you in front of everyone.
11. He has a drug addiction.


----------



## Mutatio NOmenis

Saying that they are always right
Insisting that their exes are in love with them
Insisting that every man thinks they are beautiful and wonderful
Calling themselves "princess", "diva", "queen", or "goddess" and being completely serious
Demanding to always be able to contact you
Getting very pisssed off whenver they don't get their way
Moaning to you when they want something
Calling themselves "brat" or "spoiled" or "daddy's [little] girl".
Saying that it was fate or destiny that made the two of you meet.
Not being able to take her eyes off other men during your first meetings.


----------



## Hardstyler

This need a sticky


----------



## screamofconscious

Filo said:


> What? Saying you are one?


Playing up that image, yes. When they don't want to take no for an answer, I feel pressured. It seems to me that they don't care how _I _feel, it's all about what _they _want. Show them how that feels and they bolt. Funny how that works.:crazy:


----------



## screamofconscious

bionic said:


> I refuse to lower my standards. I find them to be reasonable and realistic. I deserve a healthy relationship filled with intimacy, passion, devotion, and respect.


I think you should raise them. Thinking about that list, I can't see how any woman would want a man that had those marks against him. Refine what you're looking for, don't settle for an okay guy...get yourself the best.


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## bionic

screamofconscious said:


> I think you should raise them. Thinking about that list, I can't see how any woman would want a man that had those marks against him. Refine what you're looking for, don't settle for an okay guy...get yourself the best.


They are definitely raised. The majority of them are from observing friend's relationships. I don't understand how most girls put themselves in these kind of relationships. And the second any of those flags come up, I bolt. I don't stay in anything that isn't healthy for me. Unfortunately for some guys, you don't truly see his behavior until 2-3 months in. But even then, there are little hints along the way.


----------



## Filo

> Playing up that image, yes. When they don't want to take no for an answer, I feel pressured. It seems to me that they don't care how I feel, it's all about what they want. Show them how that feels and they bolt. Funny how that works.


I would say a simple "no" suffices. But then again, I have so much self-respect I'm not going to stay with a girl that doesn't want me.


----------



## Tranceman80

Talking with a baby voice


----------



## wisdom

She calls herself a "feminist" 

More seriously, gotta watch out for sociopaths, especially since they're superficially appealing to many people.
Dr. Lillian Glass on spotting the possible Sociopaths of the world


----------



## Erbse

Materialistic - gone.
Too emotional unstable - gone.
Too clingy - gone.
No education - gone.
No natural intelligence / common sense - gone.
Takes everything I say literal and/or personal - gone.
Has kids - gone.

Oh well, I assume that everyone thinks that their standards were only more than fair and reachable, truth of the matter however is, they're likely not. Nothing wrong with sticking to ones standards by any means, but don't you dare to get sad or lonely if your own stubbornness prevents yourself from giving things a shot. At least don't moan if you do :tongue:


----------



## trice

red flags: they don't have anything to share at a movie. I know some ppl don' t like to talk at movies, but on a first or second date, don't invite your date to a movie and not share the expierience with eachother.. sheese,, LOL:laughing:


----------



## geGamedev

pepp said:


> red flags: they don't have anything to share at a movie. I know some ppl don' t like to talk at movies, but on a first or second date, don't invite your date to a movie and not share the expierience with eachother.. sheese,, LOL:laughing:


=(
This is how I learned to never go to a movie while brain-dead (ie after work). It's too bad that had to be learned the hard way...


----------



## trice

geGamedev said:


> =(
> This is how I learned to never go to a movie while brain-dead (ie after work). It's too bad that had to be learned the hard way...


awww.. you should try again...


----------



## geGamedev

pepp said:


> awww.. you should try again...


That particular person has already put me in the "friend zone". I agree though. Changes will be made to counteract mental fatigue, then I'll go with someone I'm not attracted to before potentially repeating the same situation again. The sad part is, she pretty much only saw me (offline) immediately after a long work day... Retrospectively, it probably wouldn't have turned out very well anyway. Lesson learned. :happy:


----------



## Raichan

The tendency to be quick in making superficial judgments. Red flag!!


----------



## Lilyanith

I should listen to red flags better... >>;


----------



## trice

red flag: when they're moods change in a heartbeat. they're probably cheating.


----------



## peachalicious

We all have red flags of some kind. The hard part is knowing whether to take note of them. 
Perhaps i should make a cut off point, 5 red flags and you're out.


----------



## explorer197020

The first time you are asked "Where have you been?"


----------



## wonderfert

I've only experienced a few things that on their own are not so bad. But when combined, are a great red flag for manipulation:

Goes into great detail about her masturbatory habits (without being asked). Including the fact that she only gets off to the thought of women.
Goes into great detail about her favorite sexual positions (without being asked).
Goes into great detail about how boring her boyfriend is in bed (without being asked) and then admits she sees no future with him.
Strokes her own neck and cleavage while discussing this and making unbroken eye contact.
Becomes very confused when told I have feelings for her, and doesn't understand how I ever got the impression she was interested. Proceeds to tell me she will never feel that way about me.

Filed under Red Flag, do not approach.


----------



## Biracial

do red flags = damaged goods? i mean the people raising the flags. ugh i dunno


----------



## prplchknz

ok so heres the plan, we're never going to be happy cuz red flags will keep appearing, and since we don't want our species to die out we'll schedule procreation and than we can get rid of this OMG she's tooo______.


----------



## geGamedev

prplchknz said:


> ok so heres the plan, we're never going to be happy cuz red flags will keep appearing, and since we don't want our species to die out we'll schedule procreation and than we can get rid of this OMG she's tooo______.


As long as I get penciled in on a regular basis, and am still allowed to do whatever I want outside of that schedule, I'm in!

Wait a second... That schedule is only for procreation?! :sad:


----------



## SyndiCat

- If she gossips constantly.
- If she's constantly flaky (If she's either on the run or deep in thoughts constantly).
- If she's either too bold, or too shy.
- If she uses an ultimatum when you're having issues.
- If she mentions ex-boyfriend specifics all the time.
- If she goes into hibernation when you ask about something from her past.
- If she's using or has used drugs other than cigarettes, alcohol and pot.
- If she's obsessed with her body/health or work.
- If she has more shoes than she has thongs/panties/hotpants.
- If she has more jewelry than she has cutlery.
- If she likes Glee.
- If she calls you out of nowhere and wants to drop by for a visit.
- If she wants to hang out at your place a day after you've met.
- If she says she loves you even though you've only talked twice.
- If she "throws" her hair to the side whenever she turns her head.
- If she has kids.
- If she talks about her parents more than she does her friends.
- If she has more guy friends than she has girl friends.
- If she puts parts of her life in different compartments (To avoid the entire place from burning down if it ever were to catch on fire).
- If she sounds more happy talking with her co-workers/friends over the phone than she does talking with you.
- If she generalize you as either a.) bad boy, or b.) nice guy.
- If she wants to control you, and thinks you're trying to control her.

These are _my_ current red flags.
I don't use other people's red flags.


----------



## zskel

MikeAngell said:


> - If she gossips constantly.
> - If she's constantly flaky (If she's either on the run or deep in thoughts constantly).
> - If she's either too bold, or too shy.
> - If she uses an ultimatum when you're having issues.
> - If she mentions ex-boyfriend specifics all the time.
> - If she goes into hibernation when you ask about something from her past.
> - If she's using or has used drugs other than cigarettes, alcohol and pot.
> - If she's obsessed with her body/health or work.
> - If she has more shoes than she has thongs/panties/hotpants.
> - If she has more jewelry than she has cutlery.
> - If she likes Glee.
> - If she calls you out of nowhere and wants to drop by for a visit.
> - If she wants to hang out at your place a day after you've met.
> - If she says she loves you even though you've only talked twice.
> - If she "throws" her hair to the side whenever she turns her head.
> - If she has kids.
> - If she talks about her parents more than she does her friends.
> - If she has more guy friends than she has girl friends.
> - If she puts parts of her life in different compartments (To avoid the entire place from burning down if it ever were to catch on fire).
> - If she sounds more happy talking with her co-workers/friends over the phone than she does talking with you.
> - If she generalize you as either a.) bad boy, or b.) nice guy.
> - If she wants to control you, and thinks you're trying to control her.



Why are these red flags? The following items on your list apply to me, I would love to see what would happen if we were to meet.


- If she's constantly flaky (If she's either on the run or deep in thoughts constantly).
- If she's either too bold, or too shy.
- If she uses an ultimatum when you're having issues.
- If she mentions ex-boyfriend specifics all the time.
- If she goes into hibernation when you ask about something from her past.
- If she's using or has used drugs other than cigarettes, alcohol and pot.
- If she's obsessed with her body/health or work.
- If she has more shoes than she has thongs/panties/hotpants.
- If she has more jewelry than she has cutlery.
- If she likes Glee.
- If she calls you out of nowhere and wants to drop by for a visit.
- If she wants to hang out at your place a day after you've met.
- If she says she loves you even though you've only talked twice.
- If she "throws" her hair to the side whenever she turns her head.
- If she has kids.
- If she talks about her parents more than she does her friends.
- If she has more guy friends than she has girl friends.
- If she puts parts of her life in different compartments (To avoid the entire place from burning down if it ever were to catch on fire).
- If she sounds more happy talking with her co-workers/friends over the phone than she does talking with you.
- If she generalize you as either a.) bad boy, or b.) nice guy.
- If she wants to control you, and thinks you're trying to control her.


To contribute, my red flag is mostly just my gut feeling, TERRIBLE things happen if I ignore that. There are two things that make me end it instantly though:
- *If he gets jealous of my daughter.* : Needs no explaining. 
- *If he gets jealous of my work or co-workers. * : Yes my work is very important to me and yes I am emotional about and expressive about both it and the people there.


----------



## SyndiCat

Nothing would happen if we met unless you drugged me.


----------



## FrogFace

rowingineden said:


> Red flags:
> 
> She LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
> She winces and says "ow" when someone on TV stubs their toe
> She is obsessed with Jane Austen and the 19th century. She likes to pretend to have a fan to giggle and hide behind. She wants you to constantly use 19th century speech.
> MAJOR RED FLAG: If she never talks much about herself, never opens up to you.



When I first started reading this, my first thought was " Oh my gosh, Do I know him?!?!?! :laughing:
Thankfully, the rest does not apply.


----------



## The Great One

MikeAngell said:


> - If she gossips constantly.
> -If she's constantly flaky (If she's either on the run or deep in thoughts constantly).
> *-* If she's either too bold, or too shy.
> - If she uses an ultimatum when you're having issues.
> - If she mentions ex-boyfriend specifics all the time.
> - If she goes into hibernation when you ask about something from her past.
> - If she's using or has used drugs other than cigarettes, alcohol and pot.
> - If she's obsessed with her body/health or work.
> - If she has more shoes than she has thongs/panties/hotpants.
> - If she has more jewelry than she has cutlery.
> - If she likes Glee.
> - If she calls you out of nowhere and wants to drop by for a visit.
> - If she wants to hang out at your place a day after you've met.
> - If she says she loves you even though you've only talked twice.
> - If she "throws" her hair to the side whenever she turns her head.
> - If she has kids.
> - If she talks about her parents more than she does her friends.
> - If she has more guy friends than she has girl friends.
> - If she puts parts of her life in different compartments (To avoid the entire place from burning down if it ever were to catch on fire).
> - If she sounds more happy talking with her co-workers/friends over the phone than she does talking with you.
> - If she generalize you as either a.) bad boy, or b.) nice guy.
> - If she wants to control you, and thinks you're trying to control her.
> 
> These are _my_ current red flags.
> I don't use other people's red flags.


Wow, this guy must have only dated like one girl in his life. Where do you find a girl who doesn't even have one of these red flags. This list entertains me.


----------



## prplchknz

he pees on small children


----------



## PulpFictionFan

The Great One said:


> Wow, this guy must have only dated like one girl in his life. Where do you find a girl who doesn't even have one of these red flags. This list entertains me.


Hey, look what I found on the interwebs, Nate:


Red flags: 

He/she LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where he/she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
Good thing we don't know anyone like that right? :wink:

I'm so glad that I'm not having to deal with all this relationship bullshit right now.


----------



## pinkrasputin

PulpFictionFan said:


> Hey, look what I found on the interwebs, Nate:
> 
> 
> Red flags:
> 
> He/she LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where he/she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
> Good thing we don't know anyone like that right? :wink:
> 
> I'm so glad that I'm not having to deal with all this relationship bullshit right now.


You mean people who are obsessed with MBTI are undatable? :shocked: Those sneaky red-flagged bastards are everywhere. 

But I think you're right. I've noticed some people so obsessed, they even go as far to say they have a preference for certain MBTI types. What _is_ this madness? :tongue:


----------



## InvisibleJim

prplchknz said:


> he pees on small children


she eats live puppies.


----------



## PulpFictionFan

pinkrasputin said:


> You mean people who are obsessed with MBTI are undatable? :shocked: Those sneaky red-flagged bastards are everywhere.
> 
> But I think you're right. I've noticed some people so obsessed, they even go as far to say they have a preference for certain MBTI types. What _is_ this madness? :tongue:


I wouldn't say that such people are undatable... People have their pros and cons to them, so you've got to sort through the clutter as well as find what you're looking for. 

That and I myself wouldn't go near an ESTJ or ESFJ female with a 39 and a half-foot pole. I live with two SJs right now and I dread going there to that residence to live. SJs... *shudders*. I really don't like them... Unless they're ISTJs, they're not that bad. Other than that I handle the rest of the MBTI types with ease.

It's quite ironic how you replied to my previous comment before Nate did. In the past, he would have replied to that comment in an instant. But now he must be preoccupied with selling Bikini Barbershop coupons right now... Interesting how time changes things, morphs realities, and leads people in various directions...


----------



## pinkrasputin

PulpFictionFan said:


> I wouldn't say that such people are undatable... People have their pros and cons to them, so you've got to sort through the clutter as well as find what you're looking for.
> 
> That and I myself wouldn't go near an ESTJ or ESFJ female with a 39 and a half-foot pole. I live with two SJs right now and I dread going there to that residence to live. SJs... *shudders*. I really don't like them... Unless they're ISTJs, they're not that bad. Other than that I handle the rest of the MBTI types with ease.
> 
> It's quite ironic how you replied to my previous comment before Nate did. In the past, he would have replied to that comment in an instant. But now he must be preoccupied with selling Bikini Barbershop coupons right now... Interesting how time changes things, morphs realities, and leads people in various directions...


Just to let you know, he _is_ busy selling. And he is selling Bikini Barbershop coupons like hot cakes. You should be proud! I know I am. :crazy:

I just thought of another red flag: A guy (brother,sister, etc.) who cock blocks. :tongue:


----------



## PulpFictionFan

pinkrasputin said:


> Just to let you know, he _is_ busy selling. And he is selling Bikini Barbershop coupons like hot cakes. You should be proud! I know I am. :crazy:
> 
> I just thought of another red flag: A guy (brother,sister, etc.) who cock blocks. :tongue:


Yeah, he told me that he broke his record; selling 13 coupons in one day.

But you know... that second paragraph's content is really intriguing... "I just thought of another red flag: A guy (brother,sister, etc.) who cock blocks. :tongue:" Now just what is that all about?


----------



## NyankoLove

Here are mine that I don't think have been mentioned. 

They tell you to kill yourself after arguing with you. (and it's worse when it was an argument about something sexual that i was uncomfortable with.)
They make slips about how they believe they're better/smarter than you. 
They break up with you for their ex. Twice.
They tell you that they're going to kill you if you cheat on them. Maybe it's not serious, but who says that?
They think that there's some crazy meaning to their life... 
Lying about their past. And you only find out by talking to other people who know them.


----------



## The Great One

PulpFictionFan said:


> Hey, look what I found on the interwebs, Nate:
> 
> 
> 
> Red flags:
> 
> He/she LIVES obsessively by some personality system (to the point where he/she always complains about people in MBTI or astrology terms)
> Good thing we don't know anyone like that right? :wink:
> 
> I'm so glad that I'm not having to deal with all this relationship bullshit right now.


lol, you are such an asshole. You know that would make our very own ENFP mother who is obsessed with astrology a red flag as well right? You insulting more than one person by making this comment. 




PulpFictionFan said:


> I wouldn't say that such people are undatable... People have their pros and cons to them, so you've got to sort through the clutter as well as find what you're looking for.
> 
> That and I myself wouldn't go near an ESTJ or ESFJ female with a 39 and a half-foot pole. I live with two SJs right now and I dread going there to that residence to live. SJs... *shudders*. I really don't like them... Unless they're ISTJs, they're not that bad. Other than that I handle the rest of the MBTI types with ease.
> 
> It's quite ironic how you replied to my previous comment before Nate did. In the past, he would have replied to that comment in an instant.* But now he must be preoccupied with selling Bikini Barbershop coupons right now*... Interesting how time changes things, morphs realities, and leads people in various directions...


Well at least I'm making a lot more money than your ass stocking milk and eggs on aisle 5 partner!



pinkrasputin said:


> Just to let you know, he _is_ busy selling. And he is selling Bikini Barbershop coupons like hot cakes. You should be proud! I know I am. :crazy:
> 
> I just thought of another red flag: A guy (brother,sister, etc.) who cock blocks. :tongue:


Thank you Pink, this really means a lot to me. 



PulpFictionFan said:


> Yeah, he told me that he broke his record; selling 13 coupons in one day.
> 
> But you know... that second paragraph's content is really intriguing... "I just thought of another red flag: A guy (brother,sister, etc.) who cock blocks. :tongue:" Now just what is that all about?


Well it's pretty self explanatory....You are a cockblocking mother fucka!


----------



## PulpFictionFan

The Great One said:


> lol, you are such an asshole. You know that would make our very own ENFP mother who is obsessed with astrology a red flag as well right? You insulting more than one person by making this comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well at least I'm making a lot more money than your ass stocking milk and eggs on aisle 5 partner!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Pink, this really means a lot to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it's pretty self explanatory....You are a cockblocking mother fucka!


Yes I am insulting more than one person with one comment... and? You're insulting yourself with such poor usage of grammar Nate. I dishonor others through my actions and you dishonor yourself with yours. So given this information... who is performing the greater dishonor?

Hey I'm pulling in like $200 a week stocking milk & eggs, and the dairy aisle is on aisle 1 dumbass! And that's why I'll be able to get a nice Droid phone with Sprint instead of Metro which drops your calls!


----------



## pinkrasputin

@PulpFictionFan
@The Great One

The both of you: It is tacky and low class to discuss your wage amounts, especially in public. In addition, name calling is just childish. You both are above that behavior. You both are incredible people in your own right. 

Let's just go back to putting the blame onto me: One who separates brothers is definitely a red flag. Sowwies. :sad: 

Now kiss and make up so the both of you have a wonderful Christmas. You two are very lucky to have each other. But you don't need me to tell you that. :wink:


----------



## scarygirl

I think you are obsessed, and probably don't know much...
I hate how people think about red flags...there are no red flags itself, people who say things like this really don't know how human beings work.
What I mean is that life has no red flags. Follow your instinct. Think twice, but follow your instinct. Use your own red flags.

If you trust books, and indications, you might be missing some of the best things in your life.
Here I am, boys. I tell you all.


----------



## Life.Is.A.Game

When you feel a deep connection with someone I doubt it you go around with a checklist to see if collection agencies are calling them and other things you guys mentioned. It's good to be picky but you'll never find someone perfect, there's always gonna be a Red Flag somewhere. Can be addiction to something, can be their past, can be numerous things, but there will always be something. If all of us had a Red Flag list, we would all be single until we learn to accept, forgive , teach, etc.


----------



## Mutatio NOmenis

NyankoLove said:


> They tell you to kill yourself after arguing with you.


 Never had that, thanks for alerting me



NyankoLove said:


> They make slips about how they believe they're better/smarter than you.


 What if they really are more intelligent than you?



NyankoLove said:


> They break up with you for their ex. Twice.


 Why would you take them back?



NyankoLove said:


> They tell you that they're going to kill you if you cheat on them. Maybe it's not serious, but who says that?


 I'd probably say it and knowing how I view relationships, I might just do it (I probably wouldn't).



NyankoLove said:


> They think that there's some crazy meaning to their life...


 A lot of people do 



NyankoLove said:


> Lying about their past. And you only find out by talking to other people who know them.


 This is why I don't go to reunions.

Finally, if they are either of the two below, then don't date them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yandere

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Yangire


----------



## Malovane

Any positive mention of the following:

Kim Hyun Joong
Hello Kitty
Farm Frenzy

Guaranteed relationship failure. Or at least, those are my red flags.


----------



## Aqualung

If they've had several cars repossessed, maxed out credit cards & they're applying for more cards to buy more expensive stuff they'll never use or pay for, that's a lot of big red flags. (my ex-wife & my ignorance)


----------



## AussieChick

If you've been dating someone for a while,and they have never kissed you,or tried to put their hand up your skirt,even though you gave them a big hint(practically threw yourself at them) then that's a very big red flagAnd yes it was one of my boyfriends.


----------



## AussieChick

:tongue::dry: I don't think i was all that bad.I was neat and tidy,brushed my teeth and used deodorant.Perhaps he was just a little too introverted for me,but i'm an introvert too


----------



## DaveHertle

LS - 

I love the story in your signature. Tim probably never understood how great he had it.

David


----------



## Disfigurine

When they show you pictures of naked women they had dated in the past.
After asking for naked pictures.


....


----------



## DaveHertle

Yeah - I have never understood the need to exchange images of body parts, either my own or someone elses.


----------



## Disfigurine

DaveHertle said:


> Yeah - I have never understood the need to exchange images of body parts, either my own or someone elses.


People do it for different reasons.
The thing is, I think he did it for power and a way to blackmail more than to just jerk off.


----------



## DaveHertle

Red Flag - the phrase "Casual Sex" comes up in a conversation!

The truth being if you can have sex with someone and still keep it casual, you have no business having sex with them in the first place.


----------



## DaveHertle

Lesson then is to not give them too much BlackMail material


----------



## Disfigurine

DaveHertle said:


> Lesson then is to not give them too much BlackMail material


I learned a lot of lessons in that relationship.
A little too late, though.


----------



## IrisBlu

When they compare you to their past relationships, you of course being the inferior, especially if it comes up several times in conversations/arguments...red flag.

I have no idea if people do that to encourage others to become better, but for me, it was definitely a disheartening thing to hear. :|


----------



## DaveHertle

Belua said:


> I learned a lot of lessons in that relationship.
> A little too late, though.


I suppose all of us are here because we are still learning. thanks for sharing


----------



## DaveHertle

Introvertigo said:


> Your boyfriend has just completed a medically supervised weight-loss program before asking you out, and starts gaining weight as your relationship progresses. You see family pictures in which your intended clearly weighs 300 pounds or more.


You've been peeking at my profile!!


----------



## DaveHertle

Okay. Going back into my shell...

[Please don't, I luv what you share

“Sex without love is an empty experience, but, as empty experiences go, it's one of the best.” 

This is my truism - If you can have casual sex with someone and keep it casual, you have no business having sex with them in the first place.


----------



## Eerie

bionic said:


> *These are mine:*
> 
> Disrespectful (Is insulting, embarrasses you in front of friends, talks about our sex life in public, Calls me names, Tells me to "Shut the fuck up")
> Consistent Liar
> Jealous/Possessive
> Wants to move the relationship at a fast pace
> Chronic womanizing
> Unrelenting unemployment/Constantly changes jobs
> Long histories of addictions (Currently uses)
> Criminal history
> Has cheated in the past
> Insecure (Tells me he doesn't deserve me)
> Has had many serial Relationships/If they last less than 5 months
> The type of women he has dated in the past (emotionally unstable women, prostitutes, low-self esteem, etc)
> Doesn't take responsibility for/nor recognizes his negative behavior
> Refuses to treat his mental illness/is unstable
> Immature (Hangs up on you in the middle of a phone conversation, Lies to gain your attention, doesn't take your feelings seriously, is insensitive to your needs)
> Tries to change who you are completely or make you feel guilty for needing your space
> 
> 
> I refuse to lower my standards. I find them to be reasonable and realistic. I deserve a healthy relationship filled with intimacy, passion, devotion, and respect.



You described to a T my last ex boyfriend. So yeah, I can really relate to all of these and they are def red flags.


----------



## angularvelocity

sleepinghyacinth said:


> You described to a T my last ex boyfriend. So yeah, I can really relate to all of these and they are def red flags.


Dates a prostitute.... umm.. that's not really a red flag.. thats more like a fused-lit bomb ready to blow up and you shouldn't be near it.


----------



## AussieChick

When you are eight weeks pregnant and possibly having a miscarriage.It is a Saturday and your brother's girlfriend rushes you to find a weekend doctors surgery.While you are gone,your fiance, who you have only recently become engaged to, paces around your parents house wringing his hands and muttering "what's going to happen with me? " No concern for the fiancee and unborn child. Big Red flag


----------



## Introvertigo

When your lover can't bring himself to touch your genitals and can't explain why...red flag.


----------



## Fizz

Introvertigo said:


> When your lover can't bring himself to touch your genitals and can't explain why...red flag.


Wow, really? I mean that in a, "He refused to touch you? That's ridiculous!" way.


----------



## Eerie

When he has a page on a dating site saying "single" and he made that page while with you.


----------



## Starry

I agree with "if a man or woman has a list of red flags" RED FLAG!


----------



## ACR

If your partner is communist. Red flag!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag


----------



## watmidoing

if ur expected to forgive or "be cool about it"....as soon as she says sorry...but when u are required, you need to go to incredible lengths...
and if in arguments she is right then she'll take the logical view...but if she's wrong she'll never admit on account of emotional things...logic is blown out of the window...
if she gets mad at every second thing u do...even if u dont understand what the problem is....i.e DRAMA QUEEN...!!


----------



## Mercer

pinkrasputin said:


> I am beginning to think when they approach you on the internet, it is a red flag. :frustrating:


hey sugar, can I interst you in an ice cold pootie party?


----------



## ForsakenMe

They have more than 50% of opposite sex friends.

Sorry, but I've met several people who fit this (men and women) and they seem to cheat a lot, especially with these so called 'friends' of theirs. I can understand a guy having some female friends, but if it's the majority of his social circle, I'm out.


----------



## JoJoMo

WOW this thread was started by Jack Rabid‎ on 12-08-2009..........that is many years of red flags people.


----------



## Nymma

Red flags:

*1)When he makes excuses for his past criminal behavior by saying: "It wasn't my fault, I had a bad childhood"*

When I was swimming at YMCA, this guy commented my speed, then asked me if I wanted to race him. I agreed, and afterwards, we started talking, he, trying to flirt with me in between. As I was strangely comfortable with him for our first meeting and found him interesting, I decided to give him a chance should he chose to ask me out. We exchanged phone numbers. Soon, he told me that he had been in prison. I really liked the fact that he had been honest with me; if he could tell me this on the first day of our acquaintanceship, then he likely wouldn't be the sort of person who hid things from his girlfriend. Also, I was impressed with the respect he had for the boundaries I set-He asked me about myself, and was respectful of my decision not to reveal everything on the first day. I took that as a sign that he wouldn't be the "pushy type", a flaw I absolutely cannot stand in anyone. 

So yeah, I was open to go out with him to see if a real relationship could evolve. Despite his past, he seemed to have changed & realize the errors of his days, and he was honest, interesting, funny. HOWEVER...He let it slip that what he had done wasn't his fault because he had a horrible childhood. When I heard that, I was immediatly repulsed. While it's good that he may have changed, the fact that he denied any responsability to his crime and lay the blame entirely on his childhood told me he had no conscience, no sense of justice, and no objectivity. No sense of moral duty. If he couldn't take responsability for his actions, then he's the last person I want to date. Just screams "unealthy!" in capital letters. Red Flag you bet. Of course, I said "no" to his repetitive offers(on facebook) afterwards. 

Oh, and my cousin, who knew him through others, revealed to me that he had been in jail for stalking women. Something he didn't specify when he mentioned jail times... 

*2) When he wrestles you for 'fun' and doesn't take you seriously when you insist(and end up ordering) him to let go of you.*

My second and last boyfriend did this. He would grab me and/or sort of position himself on top of me in the middle of the school cafeteria(!) and refuse to get off me. I could hardly breathe and it physically hurted(he weighted more than I did). Not to mention, I didn't think it was appropriate for him to do that in front of everyone(there is a reason the expression "get a room!" was invented). I told him to get off but he didn't listen. I tried to remove his body/hand away from me, but he had more muscles than me, so it didn't work. I finally had to slap him to make him let go of me... He would think I was being unreasonable. Well, hello, who was imposing himself on who here? That relationship lasted two weeks for a reason. I gave him enough time to modify this behavior, but he never did, so I dumped him. Unreasonable my arse... 

*3)* *When he forces you to kiss him when you don't feel like it, and in class!*

That's the same boyfriend mentioned above. I have nothing against being physical in a relationship(every lovers should have that), but there's a time and a place for that, and when the physical time gets equal to the emotional connecting time in the beggining of the relationship, there's a problem. Also, I admit that kissing sorts of bores me, when it's done too much. I need some air. Anyway, he would make me kiss him in class. I told him no, I ordered him to leave me alone phsycially talking when in class, but he wouldn't listen. He would grab my face and impose his lips upon mine. I would then try to push him away, but alas, he was too strong for me. 

*4) When he forces you to kiss his filthy hand*

Same boyfriend again... One time, when I slapped his hand away from me when he refused to let go off me(telling him to do so and trying to remove him gently didn't work), his hand was in pain. He put it on the ground(we were sitting), shook it and ordered me to "Kiss it better". I again tried refusing (his hand was now filthy, and anyway, I find this highly disgusting), but he shove his hand in my mouth! It didn't taste good. Imposing, controlling, posessive guy...

*5) When he tells you that men are superior to women*

Shows his lack of respect for you.

yup...He revealed that when we were dating. We fought about it. This, with the new controlling behavior told above, made me ditch him. Interesting how he only behaved that way the second(and last) week we were dating. 

*6) Excessive compliments on your appearence*

First boyfriend did that. Turned out to be a shallow person, a player, someone only interested in being physical. Cheated on me. In my experience, an excess of compliments appearence-based is a sign of shallowness, of someone only interested in looks.


----------



## Woot44

Damn ... I wish I had known about this website, and this thread in particular, months ago! But of course, I didn't catch her with another man until just 6 weeks ago. I wish to thank *Jack Rabid* for: 
1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
5- If every little coincidence is somehow a magical moment of synchronicity and fate.. Red Flag
6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag

And *Lilsnowy for: *

Being offered friendly suggestions to how you might look better. _(buying me clothes 
to wear, cologne to wear...)_
Blames others for problems. "People are idiots." _(nearly ALL of her co-workers are!)_
Seems to think everyone's jealous of _(her)_. _(again, co-workers)_
Uses derogative comments about others of your gender. _(most men in general; I guess me now, too)_
Goes from charming to monster in about three seconds.
Gets upset when you spend time with family _(but HER mom and dad can come and go as they pleased!)_
Seems happy when you're down.
Seems down when you're happy or feeling accomplished
Puts down your family. _(my sister told me later of her smartass comments)_
Doesn't want to meet your friends. Wishes you didn't spend so much time with them
You start to feel uneasy expressing your opinion to this person
You start practicing in your head how you're going to say something to avoid his or her anger.

Thank you both for an excellent post/thread. 
Live and learn!
God, this should be mandatory reading for everyone coming to this website, as did I, who is having (or, WAS ...) relationship issues... before it is "too late".

If it gets this far, all these red flags .... it is "game over". :sad:


----------



## Cleo

Woot44 said:


> Damn ... I wish I had known about this website, and this thread in particular, months ago! But of course, I didn't catch her with another man until just 6 weeks ago. I wish to thank *Jack Rabid* for:
> 1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 5- If every little coincidence is somehow a magical moment of synchronicity and fate.. Red Flag
> 6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag
> 
> And *Lilsnowy for: *
> 
> Being offered friendly suggestions to how you might look better. _(buying me clothes
> to wear, cologne to wear...)_
> Blames others for problems. "People are idiots." _(nearly ALL of her co-workers are!)_
> Seems to think everyone's jealous of _(her)_. _(again, co-workers)_
> Uses derogative comments about others of your gender. _(most men in general; I guess me now, too)_
> Goes from charming to monster in about three seconds.
> Gets upset when you spend time with family _(but HER mom and dad can come and go as they pleased!)_
> Seems happy when you're down.
> Seems down when you're happy or feeling accomplished
> Puts down your family. _(my sister told me later of her smartass comments)_
> Doesn't want to meet your friends. Wishes you didn't spend so much time with them
> You start to feel uneasy expressing your opinion to this person
> You start practicing in your head how you're going to say something to avoid his or her anger.
> 
> Thank you both for an excellent post/thread.
> Live and learn!
> God, this should be mandatory reading for everyone coming to this website, as did I, who is having (or, WAS ...) relationship issues... before it is "too late".
> 
> If it gets this far, all these red flags .... it is "game over". :sad:


I like what you put for number 5. It does seem like people who use fate and talk too much about how God is calling them to do something, keeps them from being responsible for their actions. "Everything just happened this way", "God is calling me to move on" - their explanation for the shit hole they caused. Ohhh, but were they listening, when God was telling you not to get involved with me unless you were serious and available? Of course not. And God does not tell you to dump people you willingly pulled close. I also liked the part you put about walking on eggshells thinking of how you are going to say something that's on your mind. This one really serious bf I had used to make me feel like a nervous wreck when I needed to tell him I didn't like certain things. No matter how reasonable and nice I was about it, he would just start acting inconvenienced and irritated. I sensed that he would use those as excuses to leave me or cheat, which of course he was, I just didn't want to admit it. Arghhh.  I'm sorry you had to deal with those things too.


----------



## Arclight

Woot44 said:


> Damn ... I wish I had known about this website, and this thread in particular, months ago! But of course, I didn't catch her with another man until just 6 weeks ago. I wish to thank *Jack Rabid* for:
> 1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 5- If every little coincidence is somehow a magical moment of synchronicity and fate.. Red Flag
> 6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag
> 
> And *Lilsnowy for: *
> 
> Being offered friendly suggestions to how you might look better. _(buying me clothes
> to wear, cologne to wear...)_
> Blames others for problems. "People are idiots." _(nearly ALL of her co-workers are!)_
> Seems to think everyone's jealous of _(her)_. _(again, co-workers)_
> Uses derogative comments about others of your gender. _(most men in general; I guess me now, too)_
> Goes from charming to monster in about three seconds.
> Gets upset when you spend time with family _(but HER mom and dad can come and go as they pleased!)_
> Seems happy when you're down.
> Seems down when you're happy or feeling accomplished
> Puts down your family. _(my sister told me later of her smartass comments)_
> Doesn't want to meet your friends. Wishes you didn't spend so much time with them
> You start to feel uneasy expressing your opinion to this person
> You start practicing in your head how you're going to say something to avoid his or her anger.
> 
> Thank you both for an excellent post/thread.
> Live and learn!
> God, this should be mandatory reading for everyone coming to this website, as did I, who is having (or, WAS ...) relationship issues... before it is "too late".
> 
> If it gets this far, all these red flags .... it is "game over". :sad:


You are welcome.. I am Jack Rabid.. The good folks here allowed me to switch profiles and I am grateful. 
I just want to say.. I have had much time to think and reassess my life since I started this thread.
I was angry at myself for not listening to my feelings because many signs were there. 
However.. I mistreated her and broke her heart. I was not sensitive enough to her feelings and was too caught up on my own crisis to notice her cries for help and understanding. I did not take her love as serious as she meant it. 
She could call me out on some Red Flags as well, and I would have no defense.


----------



## Promethea

ForsakenMe said:


> They have more than 50% of opposite sex friends.
> 
> Sorry, but I've met several people who fit this (men and women) and they seem to cheat a lot, especially with these so called 'friends' of theirs. I can understand a guy having some female friends, but if it's the majority of his social circle, I'm out.


Or if his facebook "friends" list is a gallery of camwhores. No thanx mister!


----------



## Arclight

Cleo said:


> I like what you put for number 5. It does seem like people who use fate and talk too much about how God is calling them to do something, keeps them from being responsible for their actions. "Everything just happened this way", "God is calling me to move on" - their explanation for the shit hole they caused. Ohhh, but were they listening, when God was telling you not to get involved with me unless you were serious and available? Of course not. And God does not tell you to dump people you willingly pulled close. I also liked the part you put about walking on eggshells thinking of how you are going to say something that's on your mind. This one really serious bf I had used to make me feel like a nervous wreck when I needed to tell him I didn't like certain things. No matter how reasonable and nice I was about it, he would just start acting inconvenienced and irritated. I sensed that he would use those as excuses to leave me or cheat, which of course he was, I just didn't want to admit it. Arghhh.  I'm sorry you had to deal with those things too.


That is not quite what I meant. I believe God brings people together and I believe God brought her and I together.
It's more along the lines of Inferior Se and the stressed out INFJ.. Any little event, any word, any tone or even what song was on the radio does not always have some deep significance. God brings people together, but after that, it is free will. _"You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink" _sort of thing. 
In her case she was losing sight of reality and seeing things that just weren't there and attaching meanings that did not exist. 
Function theory on inferior Se explains it well. 
Of course if I knew then what I know now.........


----------



## Cleo

Ohhhh, I see. I think I need some examples, but I know what you mean. I find meaning in a lot of things, but I have known some people who get pretty rediculous with that.


----------



## Daniel James Brandt

I'd be completely fine with her falling in love with me on the 2nd date...or the 1st... ultimate green flag =D


----------



## tissa

- still friends with all exes (I know, i know for many people it is not a red flag, but from my experience it means a person either could not accept the break-up, is still in love with an ex, or still has them for a booty call);
- keeps a dating profile while with you;
- doesn't introduce you to friends and parents;
- doesn't spend weekends with you; 
- doesn't like your friends and is unwilling to make an effort to still invite them to hang out together or go to their place if invited (or constantly tells u how much of a burden it is to do);
- doesn't like children; 
- has bad relationship with his/her family;
- doesn't like animals/pets;
- curses, yells;
- is not educated and is not interested to be;
- has no job and doesn't seem eager to change that;
- always says bad things about exes;
- compares you to exes ("you are just as bad as so and so");
- withdraws after arguments;
- breaks up after arguments and then comes back;
- has friends of the opposite sex that you do not know and doesn't want you to be introduced to them;
- doesn't call you every day (or at least text). I know it is not a red flag for some people as well, but to me if a person means smth to you u find a minute even in the busiest schedule to send a txt or make a quick call to let them know u are thinking abt them;
- and yes still keeps relationship status as "single" on social networks (if u are in a relationship) and doesnt add u as a contact


----------



## screamofconscious

tissa said:


> - still friends with all exes (I know, i know for many people it is not a red flag, but from my experience it means a person either could not accept the break-up, is still in love with an ex, or still has them for a booty call);


I've found friendly exes also use their continued "friendship" as a means to attempt meddling in your relationship. It can take many forms. My "favorite" one so far has been the idea that his baby mama needed to get to know me so that she could verify and judge that he hasn't brought somebody unsavory around their children. As if he's not capable or concerned with that, himself. Or that she has some appropriate recourse with regard to the children if I refused her overtures.


----------



## Sina

@tissa, I've had bad experiences with guys who were 'best friends' with their exes or just too chummy with them, in general. Red flag or not, I don't want to deal with it ever again. It's very annoying. An ex is an "Ex" for a reason. Keep her out of the current relationship's present and future.


----------



## The Bird Person

1. She's "just not about the drama" if you hear this turn around and run, shes all about the drama. look at every girl who says this and spend a couple of weeks getting to know them and i promise they will be be all about the drama. its as consistent as gravity.
2. She tells you about how crazy family everyone in her family is and shes the only sane one.
3. She has cheated on every boyfriend shes had, but she can tell it's gonna be different with you
4. She gossips like crazy about everybody the two of you know
5. General desperation
6. Poor self-esteem, i don't know why it wasn't mentioned yet
7. They lie and treat everyone badly in general, but you know the real them and won't be lied to or treated like that
8. compares you to exes
9. completely one sided in the telling of any dispute
10. glorifies a history of mental illness or uses it to justify things
11. believes all girls are sluts or is constantly putting down every other woman unnecessarily


----------



## The Bird Person

Boss said:


> @tissa, I've had bad experiences with guys who were 'best friends' with their exes or just too chummy with them, in general. Red flag or not, I don't want to deal with it ever again. It's very annoying. An ex is an "Ex" for a reason. Keep her out of the current relationship's present and future.


maybe the reason their exes is because they reallize theyd make awesome friends.


----------



## Vanitas

From awhile ago, 
- Admitting to have lost his temper and beaten up his mother. 
- Telling you that _all_ his exes were batshit crazy, clingy, insecure, bitchy cheaters. 
- 'Admitting' that he's a 'master manipulator'. 
- Locking his friend list so it's not visible except to himself. 
- Blames his childhood for his tendency for violence.

- Different guy: pulled PUA tricks on you, then all hurt when they don't work.

Also, this is a personal peeve, I suppose, but I don't find it-- attractive at all when someone/ some people harp about and seem to strongly believe the importance of (not) being friend zoned. There's a difference between playing you along vs. not attracted/ available, but would like to be friends.


----------



## cheesecake

Someone who continues to like almost every single status of this one girl... when most of the statuses are not even really funny or significant.

Then when you ask if he is a facebook stalker, he gets all defensive and says he doesn't stalk anyone.

Does this sound like a red flag or am I just being paranoid?


----------



## Themis_

I don't like dogs. I've been attacked a lot, and they require too much attention and are smelly and loud. Cats are better and more hugable.


----------



## Themis_

cheesecake said:


> Someone who continues to like almost every single status of this one girl... when most of the statuses are not even really funny or significant.
> 
> Then when you ask if he is a facebook stalker, he gets all defensive and says he doesn't stalk anyone.
> 
> Does this sound like a red flag or am I just being paranoid?


i'd say red flag


----------



## MoonRabbit

cheesecake said:


> Someone who continues to like almost every single status of this one girl... when most of the statuses are not even really funny or significant.
> 
> Then when you ask if he is a facebook stalker, he gets all defensive and says he doesn't stalk anyone.
> 
> Does this sound like a red flag or am I just being paranoid?


That OR he really likes the chick?


----------



## angularvelocity

When a girl pulls down her pants and tells you her vagina looked like a cauliflower since as long as she can remember... and that it is safe to proceed RED FLAG


----------



## runnerveran

cheesecake said:


> Someone who continues to like almost every single status of this one girl... when most of the statuses are not even really funny or significant.
> 
> Then when you ask if he is a facebook stalker, he gets all defensive and says he doesn't stalk anyone.
> 
> Does this sound like a red flag or am I just being paranoid?


Maybe stalker is a bit too strong. But I would say that there's a good chance he's a tad clingy and likes her a bit TOO much.


----------



## WindowLicker

Something just doesn't *feel* right... and you know what that is you just want to be wrong about it.


----------



## wisdom

Mike Ramey of the Manhoodline - The Differences Between Miss Right And Miss Wrong


----------



## Elyasis

wisdom said:


> Mike Ramey of the Manhoodline - The Differences Between Miss Right And Miss Wrong


Oh snap! He did not just insult my independence and education. I'm going to get all affronted now! 

Wow, I really hope no one actually takes that list seriously. Though, I know some guys will.


----------



## Eerie

wisdom said:


> Mike Ramey of the Manhoodline - The Differences Between Miss Right And Miss Wrong


I really hope you were trying to be funny.


----------



## Lev

Red Flags for somebody, but some of this has happened and not been a red flag in my case.

If they chose to have adventure, experiences and events with their friends over you; RED FLAG.
If they tell you you need to work more; RED FLAG.
If you argue over an issue that needs to be resolved and they have nothing to say, every time, to conclude the argument; RED FLAG
(I've learned this is a sign they're just fine with being yelled at because they expect it to blow over with minimal to no effort whatsoever and life to follow course afterwards)
If they hang up the phone on you while you're talking; RED FLAG.
(In certain contexts it's ok in my opinion to hang up; emergency, yelling so loud nothing is making sense anymore ((at which point it's probably over anyways)) but to hang up because you want to make a statement? I'll take my car through the front of your house, and you'll love it.)


----------



## Raichan

People who are too stupid/close minded and generalize/impose as if even the smallest thing is a 'red flag' that could apply to everyone when it doesn't.

Just sayin', that's a red flag for me. Ironic? Oh well. *Trying to be funny but failed*


----------



## Lev

Raichan said:


> People who are too stupid/close minded and generalize/impose as if even the smallest thing is a 'red flag' that could apply to everyone when it doesn't.
> 
> Just sayin', that's a red flag for me. Ironic? Oh well. *Trying to be funny but failed*


People who state the obvious while also assuming it's always about them - Red Flag.

I'm also being funny, not failing.

Obviously all of these red flags are suited for specific personalities or people in general, some are amusing to read, but then there's got to be someone that believces this a universal guidebook to relationships and make a rather stupid/close minded statement that generalizes/imposes this thread was intended to be a red flag for every person's relationship.


----------



## Raichan

Twas a joke#

My sincere apologies though.

I know there are relevant red flags..I was merely mocking a few people I remember who used to say things like,''he ain't got a car, yipee red flag,'' but then again it is not my position to judge.

Sorry again.


----------



## Olena

Lev said:


> If they chose to have adventure, experiences and events with their friends over you; RED FLAG.


Um...blowing your friends off for your SO is a pretty shitty thing to do. I don't see this as a red flag, I see this as being a good friend.


----------



## koalaroo

I agree that someone blowing off their friends for their SO is absolutely wrong. Personally, I'd be more worried about being in a relationship with someone who ONLY wanted to hang out with me to the exclusion of their friends.


----------



## Raichan

cheesecake said:


> Someone who continues to like almost every single status of this one girl... when most of the statuses are not even really funny or significant.
> 
> Then when you ask if he is a facebook stalker, he gets all defensive and says he doesn't stalk anyone.
> 
> Does this sound like a red flag or am I just being paranoid?


It's relevant. I'd be 'wtf' if my boyfriend did that to some random girl...liking some statuses are okay or if they were best friends or something...but all the time? Hmmmm.

But then again, that's just my personal opinion.


----------



## Lev

Olena said:


> Um...blowing your friends off for your SO is a pretty shitty thing to do. I don't see this as a red flag, I see this as being a good friend.



When you are with someone you love, you make them a priority. Instead of getting shit faced drunk every new years with your friends, calling your loved one and saying "I'm so sorry you weren't with me, I had the time of my life!" , maybe they should be spending it with you and making memories, having the time of their life with you. 

I didn't say completely ruling their friends out. I said completely ruling your loved one out. It's being a good friend alright, and an ass of a partner.

When I haven't seen my SO for some time and a friend wants to spend time with me but I have the opportunity with be with my SO, I am with my SO. If my SO wants to be with the guys, that's fine, nor do I need an itinerary of their life. But for the man who wants adventure and experience with his friends every time and me reserved in the bed, I'm going to start making adventure on my own without him. (or leave him obviously).


----------



## Dylio

They blame the world for their problems that are self-induced

Their wrists and legs are so full of scars that it looks like they had an incident with an industrial sized paper shredder

When they cut their wrists less than 2 weeks into the relationship

When something happens every week that crushes them and makes them feel worthless

When they are overbearingly pessimistic

When they can dish it really good but they can't take it even a little bit

When they say all their ex's are assholes

When ALL their friends tell you that you can do better

They constantly pull at other peoples insecurities in order to feel better about the piece of shit they believe themselves to be

When they're $125,000 in debt and have nothing to show for it besides a massive nosebleed.

^ when they work at future shop while carrying a $125,000 debt, there's not a chance in hell it's getting paid off

When they tell you that your university is pointless and that you're just wasting your time

When they consume all your time and get angry whenever you want to see friends, and also when they refuse to hang out with your friends

When you find a cheap prepaid cellphone with a bunch of text messages to drug dealers asking for 8-balls, then cross reference the dates with your phone and realize that it was for the day your best friend came to town, and the weekend your friends invited you on a limo 
party that they refused to take part in

When they tell you they used to have a problem with coke, but say they haven't done it in 6 months, and you find out they were doing it right up until you started dating, and continued to do it throughout the relationship

When they have no comprehension of what it means to be selfless because they are very self absorbed and selfish in their nature

When they lie about cheating on you, and your stupid enough to believe their lies, then you catch him red handed the week later.



These red flags are all from the same person. If you encounter any of these, run! And don't look back!


----------



## perfectcircle

when he tells you he loves you when you're on top of him humping his leg and eating his face.


----------



## PhoenixRises

I just read through all 40 pages and I can't believe how many people have experienced the same red flags...wow! Here's some I have experienced through the years:

-Says they love you within a month of knowing you

-Wants to move in together within several months of knowing you/dating

-Fast forwards everything initially in the relationship, but once you reciprocate and let down your walls they push away

-They're fine w/ cutting people out of their life and bringing them back as they please, usually w/o reason (even their own mom)

-They have major financial debt but still spend beyond their means

-All of their past girlfriends are supposedly "crazy" and he "hates" them; laughs & tells you how they still want to hang out.

-They keep tabs on their exes

-They take things off of Facebook (like a rather innocent picture you took of them) because they're worried what others will think.

-They make fun of you in front of their friends...and make inappropriate comments in front of your friends/coworkers/everyone.

-They tease you about your schooling or other accomplishments

-They claim a friend/girl/whoever is crazy, rude or X/Y/Z, but they continue to spend time with said friend or girl.

-The music or things you like and want to do aren't cool when you suggest them, but they go off and do these things w friends

-Concerned with materialistic and superficial things

-Buy themselves everything, but never treat you to anything, even simple and thoughtful gestures.

-Believe they are entitled to things in life without having worked towards them

-Tell racist or sexist jokes, or make off-color remarks

-Secretive, to the point you discover there are email addresses and other accounts you didn't know about.

-They have an active dating profile, when you didn't meet them online and they are working things out with you.

-They tell you how they "don't want to hurt you" and "don't deserve you".

-They don't make an effort with your family or friends.

-Might be using you for your job, social status, or looks

-The gym and working out is more important than any dates or obligations.

-They are afraid to express emotions, thinking it's a sign of weakness

-They break up with you more than once (I believe in second chances, but only when warranted)

-Claim they love you still, but are dating others while you and they are in the process of working things out

-They make you feel as though anytime you step up to defend your values or boundaries that you are a nag or crazy.


----------



## Choice

*are they really that offensive?*



PhoenixRises said:


> -Says they love you within a month of knowing you


When is it OK to say and what must it be taken to mean? I mean I love my computer and my keyboard etc..? 

-They keep tabs on their exes
I thought many people remain friends afterwards?

-They take things off of Facebook (like a rather innocent picture you took of them) because they're worried what others will think.
Could you please elaborate? I was thinking that if they don't like a photo it's their right to do so.

-Secretive, to the point you discover there are email addresses and other accounts you didn't know about.
I see no issues with the given example. *head tilt* What does secretive mean to you?


----------



## Theyknow

Claims that they have raped your body and are now their sex slave on the first day of knowing them.
Calls you from a restricted number to ask how cute I think I am.


----------



## laserjock

Theyknow said:


> Claims that they have raped your body and are now their sex slave on the first day of knowing them.
> Calls you from a restricted number to ask how cute I think I am.


 I hate when that happens....

[video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/273975[/video]


----------



## laserjock

Double post.


----------



## StElmosDream

PhoenixRises said:


> I just read through all 40 pages and I can't believe how many people have experienced the same red flags...wow! Here's some I have experienced through the years:
> 
> -Says they love you within a month of knowing you


Not necessarily a 'red flag' if both feel a magnetic pull towards bonding and something past physicalness alone.


----------



## PhoenixRises

Almost said:


> When is it OK to say and what must it be taken to mean? I mean I love my computer and my keyboard etc..?
> -They keep tabs on their exes
> I thought many people remain friends afterwards?
> -They take things off of Facebook (like a rather innocent picture you took of them) because they're worried what others will think.
> Could you please elaborate? I was thinking that if they don't like a photo it's their right to do so.
> -Secretive, to the point you discover there are email addresses and other accounts you didn't know about.
> I see no issues with the given example. *head tilt* What does secretive mean to you?


Sorry, I probably didn't add enough detail to these examples...I can see how they might not appear red flags at first. I used to think that when someone said 'I love you' early on that it was romantic and not an issue whatsoever. It's not a red flag for everybody, but in my own experience the type of individual who blurts this early on in a relationship is trying to fast forward things, or is impulsive and may not share the same philosophy I have when it comes to dating (it's not a race!) So I can understand if for some if it's fine, just to me it warns me to proceed with caution, because they are probably feeling infatuation/lust/whatever and don't know me well enough to know it's love.

As for the exes, I'm not talking about normal friendship with a person you used to date. I mean he claimed to "hate" a certain ex, that she was crazy...only for me to discover he was still trying to reach out and initiate contact w her. To me, it's pretty simple. If the person was cool but it didn't work out, then stay friends. If they are awful and treated you badly, why would you want them in your lives? And if they are really just a friend, why would you hide it, say bad things about them, or hide them from your current significant other? He did this often and later I would find out he was seeking them out as a form of narcissistic supply. I just think you have to be really careful about who you keep in your life--it's a reflection of your emotional health, boundaries, and values.

The Facebook thing was weird because he asked me to take the photo of him in question, told me he liked it, even sent it to his dad (we were out in the mountains and it was a great shot). A day or so later when I posted it to Facebook he took it down and got really weird/defensive when I asked him about it. Not that it matters anyways because I got off Facebook forever ago, I think it's evil! :angry: And having a second email in and of itself isn't weird--but it's how he used it (signing up for pornography, emailing other women, you name it). He was just very two-sided and manipulative, and it's quite sad because he's pushed anyone decent out of his life. Oh well.


----------



## petite libellule

99 Relationship Red Flags Every Woman Should Know - Blog - GuySpeak

Omg! This list was perfect. Just perfect. :kitteh:

The only think I have to add is if he needs a side of bacon with every meal.
It's a PIG BUTT! that's disgusting!!! :x


----------



## killemdeader

PhoenixRises said:


> -They're fine w/ cutting people out of their life and bringing them back as they please, usually w/o reason (even their own mom)
> 
> -All of their past girlfriends are supposedly "crazy" and he "hates" them; laughs & tells you how they still want to hang out.
> 
> -They keep tabs on their exes
> 
> -They claim a friend/girl/whoever is crazy, rude or X/Y/Z, but they continue to spend time with said friend or girl.
> 
> -Secretive, to the point you discover there are email addresses and other accounts you didn't know about.
> 
> -They tell you how they "don't want to hurt you" and "don't deserve you".
> 
> -They break up with you more than once (I believe in second chances, but only when warranted)
> 
> -Claim they love you still, but are dating others while you and they are in the process of working things out


Oh dear. Could have used these 6 months ago... Huh. Why did I think any of these were normal or acceptable...


----------



## PhoenixRises

killemdeader said:


> Oh dear. Could have used these 6 months ago... Huh. Why did I think any of these were normal or acceptable...


Well, at least you know now! It sucks to have to learn the lesson first hand, but now it won't happen again and you're _that_ much closer to finding a normal person who's right for you.


----------



## Death Persuades

Umm... Why would loving someone be a red flag? I said "I love you" to my now ex before we were even together... Before I even wanted to be with her! :S and now we're done, and I still say it... Because it's true... :S :S :S I think people assume love = limerence or sexual desire.


----------



## Brian1

So, apparently this couple started doing a night on the town, this is the second time I've seen them come out of a bar, and the girl wants the guy to publically leave her alone, and third parties of men come over to deal with the guy. Tonight it was my turn,I really didn't ask for it, and he threatened to kill me, when I did go to intercept, and I had a bag of glass bottles and aluminum cans of Starbucks, read to use as a weapon in the fight. Apparently they were drunk. A third party that was the sober wing of their party of two guys and a girl, came and intercepted me. Drinking and then publicly fighting, there's a relationship that has an accident waiting to happen written on it.


They were right in front of the crosswalk, so I couldn't really ignore them, and they were also right in front of the CVS, that I was coming out of. I was just coming home from work, too, I didn't ask for this.


----------



## Devil

I think my major relationship flags that I've personally experienced were
Mind you, I was fairly young when all of this happened and not in a good place. I did accidentally tell her I loved her about 2 months in and then I tried to take it back but she wouldn't have it -.- (If I said it, there must've been a reason. No you can't be having moments of loneliness).
Refuses to let you even accept that you're not ready for them to move in with you and no matter any amount of convincing they do.
Being forced to relent to their demands over threats of killing themselves
Being controlling, manipulative, etc.
Asking you to stick on with them when they're clearly ending it.
Going to meet an ex 3 months in without telling you too much.

To be fair most of these were when I was a lot younger and many of them with one person I was stuck with for several years who was an abusive (to the point I exhibited a classic case of shutting out friends and family for shame amongst other reasons). I even became very secretive to the point that I made up lies just to avoid introducing her to people and let everyone think that I was okay because I didn't want anyone to worry about me. I thought I could fix it early on. There are some people and things you just can't help/fix.

I've got my life back on track from that finally.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

PhoenixRises said:


> -They take things off of Facebook (like a rather innocent picture you took of them) because they're worried what others will think.



i think this can be completely normal depending on how gung ho you are with the camera. I know this girl that takes pics of every visit and immediately posts the pics before showing them to you. You dont always look good you know.


----------



## Mendi the ISFJ

Ningsta Kitty said:


> 99 Relationship Red Flags Every Woman Should Know - Blog - GuySpeak
> 
> Omg! This list was perfect. Just perfect. :kitteh:
> 
> The only think I have to add is if he needs a side of bacon with every meal.
> It's a PIG BUTT! that's disgusting!!! :x


bacon is awesome, theres something wrong with you.


----------



## PhoenixRises

Mendi the ISFJ said:


> i think this can be completely normal depending on how gung ho you are with the camera. I know this girl that takes pics of every visit and immediately posts the pics before showing them to you. You dont always look good you know.


Eh, I get that. But the example I was giving was specifically where he would tell me what a great photo it was of us, that he loved it, asked for a copy, etc. and when I would post it to Facebook he would take it down. I never got a straight answer and he was always super defensive about it, made me wonder if he was trying to "get with" other girls and didn't want to seem off the market. Also, Facebook is such a clusterf*ck to the mind that I am soooo glad I don't have it anymore. It's pure evil! :angry:


----------



## cosmia

I remember at the beginning of our relationship, I was laughing at something or another, and I really like to laugh, and my now-ex looked at me and said, "Calm down. It wasn't _that_ funny."

May seem insignificant, but that should have been a red flag.


----------



## sean2724

I just ask a girl questions. And if I can ask 3 without getting asked anything in return - red flag.


----------



## Ellis Bell

From experience, mine were, in a couple of relationships:
--Major insecurity complex.
--Referring to you as his "friend."
--Won't visit you even though you only live 15 minutes away.
--Makes everything about him and his feelings.
--Exhibits hypocritical behavior and can't see the contradictions in it.
--Stops speaking to you for 3 weeks, after which he emerges with a new girlfriend.
--Breaks up with you through text message.

On a first date:
--Being overly touchy-feely
--Talking about how much you want to get married
--Talking about having out-of-the-body experiences.


----------



## FootSoldier

Never asks how my day is when I ask them how theirs is.
Makes racist/sexist jokes on a first date.
Any kind of physical contact that is not playful, or loving.


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## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> I cannot understand how people treat people like this. The emotional detachment and savage disregard for the well-being of someone you've supposedly loved is incomprehensible.


'Supposedly' is the key word. I think he was playing her and probably had other women he was playing too. For all we know, he could have had one woman after another "visiting him" to get engaged. I think it's evil; the red flags were there. She experienced a lot of heartache because she didn't pay attention. But she loved him so she trusted.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> 'Supposedly' is the key word. I think he was playing her and probably had other women he was playing too. For all we know, he could have had one woman after another "visiting him" to get engaged. I think it's evil; the red flags were there. She experienced a lot of heartache because she didn't pay attention. But she loved him so she trusted.


I cannot imagine looking at someone, saying I love them, talking of marriage, making love/having sex/whatever - and it's all a horrible lie. And then treating them horridly to get rid of them? It's a world far from mine.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> I cannot imagine looking at someone, saying I love them, talking of marriage, making love/having sex/whatever - and it's all a horrible lie. And then treating them horridly to get rid of them? It's a world far from mine.


I hope it's a world far from all of us. That's why this thread is so helpful. We all need to stay far from people like this.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> I hope it's a world far from all of us. That's why this thread is so helpful. We all need to stay far from people like this.


Amen. Perhaps it's especially hard for ENFPs, because we want rapid flow of energy and we are very trusting, generally. The strange twisted labyrinths have so little appeal to me, and less and less even as time goes on.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> Amen. Perhaps it's especially hard for ENFPs, because we want rapid flow of energy and we are very trusting, generally. The strange twisted labyrinths have so little appeal to me, and less and less even as time goes on.


I'm not sure if my friend is an ENFP, but she is an outgoing, friendly person. She is a type 4 enneagram, so emotional intensity is her thing. This effected her for a long time. I understand getting hurt because you want to trust. My intuition usually tells me someone is up to something but I don't always listen to it. 

But as I get older I do more and more.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> I'm not sure if my friend is an ENFP, but she is an outgoing, friendly person. She is a type 4 enneagram, so emotional intensity is her thing. This effected her for a long time. I understand getting hurt because you want to trust. My intuition usually tells me someone is up to something but I don't always listen to it. - But as I get older I do more and more.


I'm still learning. It's a difficult conundrum, because a world where I have to be so so guarded against people is not a world I want to connect with people in.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> I'm still learning. It's a difficult conundrum, because a world where I have to be so so guarded against people is not a world I want to connect with people in.


I understand that, but I guess the desire is still there, isn't it. It always will be for me, even though I'm more solitary than I used to be.

I think I mentioned early in this thread that when I was a teenager I was super intuitive. I could judge a person's character or a situation very quickly. However, I was in an emotionally abusive relationship myself; my intuition was working but my conclusions were powerfully and consistently denied by the other person. It never dawned on me he was hurting me on purpose. 

Today I'm different: If I feel something's off, I act on it immediately, usually by distancing myself, or openly confronting, if it seems appropriate.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> I guess the desire is still there, isn't it


Very much so. Most of all, what I would like in a friendship/connection is what I bring to it. I find infinite depth in the positive, in enthusiasm, and in someone who finds the same things that way. To me that's as near to heaven as we can come.

I'm very sorry you had to live with emotional abuse. I've had a few touches of it, and it's enough to chill even an ENFP![/QUOTE]


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> Very much so. Most of all, what I would like in a friendship/connection is what I bring to it. I find infinite depth in the positive, in enthusiasm, and in someone who finds the same things that way. To me that's as near to heaven as we can come.
> 
> I'm very sorry you had to live with emotional abuse. I've had a few touches of it, and it's enough to chill even an ENFP!


Thanks. I'm the same way; what I bring is love, depth, acceptance and enthusiasm about life and the relationship, and I need those in return. The worst thing about abuse in relationships is, if you come from a planet where love wants the best for the other person, where you want them to be fulfilled and happy, it may not occur to you that the other person is not "mutual" and only wants to control you. That he _doesn't_ want you to feel loved or appreciated. That he wants you to feel small, insecure, fearful, off balance, and in subjection to him. That he projects on you, all the emotions he has been denying in himself. The red flags are showing you something SO PAY ATTENTION!

I don't share too much about this part of my life normally but I hope it helps someone. If you recognize these dynamics in your relationship, please get away! GET AWAY NOW! 

I really thought he had my best interests at heart. I thought, _He loves me so he must be trying to help me by criticizing me._ Maybe I _wasn't _expressing my self clearly; my words, actions and intentions were _always_ misread. *No matter how I showed my love, it didn't go well. *Hard to describe how bizarre that is. I lost hours analyzing my speech, the way i presented things, always trying to see where I went wrong. And because he occasionally was kind and happy with me, it kept me hooked and off balance. 

But when I realized that he understood all along, but wanted to diminish me, I became very confrontational. I told him I would not feel for him_ any more_. That he would start feeling his own fear, his own insecurity and leave me alone. He had an opportunity to change, to become a loving, mutual person, but he took the other road. It was bad until it reached a point where I didn't feel anything anymore. My respect and love for him had diminished to such an extent, he lost the power to effect me and then it was over.


----------



## Promethea

Maybe its already been mentioned, but one of them that I have come to realize is that its true whats often said about guys who don't respect their mom (or guys who deeply -resent- their mom).. They will often project bs on other women, and treat them disrespectfully too. 

It really makes me ill to see a guy use damning language when speaking of his mother -- how overbearing, smothering, etc.. I mean there are ways to state boundaries respectfully, but furthermore: shes not trying to piss you off, shes just not like you.. shes showing love HER way, perhaps not YOUR way (and what do some of these young guys know of love yet -anyway-).

I resented my mom to an extent when I was younger, then I grew up and realized.. she did those annoying things because she cared, and she was worried about my well-being, concerned about what type of person I was becoming. She wasn't right all the time, and not everything helped naturally -- but the point is that it was done out of LOVE.

So anyway, I'm hereby deeming it a red-flag; guys who are so self-centered, ignorant, and immature that they resent their mothers. Of course aiming for a slightly older age-group probably rules most of this problem out. The age-group I witness it in, it amazes me how they can still act like toddlers after high school..

At least some of them grow the fuck up.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> Thanks.


You are so welcome. : )

> it may not occur to you that the other person is not "mutual" inside and only wants to control you.

I have lived this. As a straight guy I've of course had different forms of the experience - in my case, and it's become a kind of fascination, to understand it - what I got was assurances that all was well, nothing was wrong - then BLAMMO the breakup, usually in the form of going silent. (This isn't about anyone online, just for the record. I'm talking more ancient history.) But it left me feeling that same way: diminished, and a little more in difficulty of trusting love and passion the next time out.

I appreciate your sharing and your attention to this issue. I think it's terribly important - for males and females both - and it enters my writing a lot. I plan to do some more books on it in the future.

I've lived that same thing with the lack of give. The words were there sometimes - shifty females will pretend, while shifty males withhold. But it's the same dang thing! The retraction from real love, real passion, and real connection. And I HATE it.

> I became very confrontational. I told him I would not feel for him_ any more_. 

Brava! @Lilsnowy rises! I'm so happy you did that. And proud.


----------



## fguewriter

Promethea said:


> Maybe its already been mentioned, but one of them that I have come to realize is that its true whats often said about guys who don't respect their mom (or guys who deeply -resent- their mom).


If they have to hate on their mothers, they have no grown up. At all.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Promethea said:


> Maybe its already been mentioned, but one of them that I have come to realize is that its true whats often said about guys who don't respect their mom (or guys who deeply -resent- their mom).. They will often project bs on other women, and treat them disrespectfully too.
> 
> It really makes me ill to see a guy use damning language when speaking of his mother -- how overbearing, smothering, etc.. I mean there are ways to state boundaries respectfully, but furthermore: shes not trying to piss you off, shes just not like you.. shes showing love HER way, perhaps not YOUR way (and what do some of these young guys know of love yet -anyway-).j
> 
> I resented my mom to an extent when I was younger, then I grew up and realized.. she did those annoying things because she cared, and she was worried about my well-being, concerned about what type of person I was becoming. She wasn't right all the time, and not everything helped naturally -- but the point is that it was done out of LOVE.
> 
> So anyway, I'm hereby deeming it a red-flag; guys who are so self-centered, ignorant, and immature that they resent their mothers. Of course aiming for a slightly older age-group probably rules most of this problem out. The age-group I witness it in, it amazes me how they can still act like toddlers after high school..
> 
> At least some of them grow the fuck up.


It's great to see your awareness and personal growth. And yes, a man's relationship or feelings about his mother, whether right or wrong, can color his expectations and respect --or lack of -- for women in general. If his mother didn't treat him right his self worth may be deeply wounded and he may expect a woman to be "the answer," put on earth to build him up, or he may subconsciously see it as a chance to establish power that he didn't have as a child. To dish out what he couldn't to his mother. 

There are many reasons but the important thing is, if he hates her or barely tolerates his mother, his ability to love and trust will likely be compromised.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> You are so welcome. : )
> 
> > it may not occur to you that the other person is not "mutual" inside and only wants to control you.
> 
> I have lived this. As a straight guy I've of course had different forms of the experience - in my case, and it's become a kind of fascination, to understand it - what I got was assurances that all was well, nothing was wrong - then BLAMMO the breakup, usually in the form of going silent. (This isn't about anyone online, just for the record. I'm talking more ancient history.) But it left me feeling that same way: diminished, and a little more in difficulty of trusting love and passion the next time out.
> 
> I appreciate your sharing and your attention to this issue. I think it's terribly important - for males and females both - and it enters my writing a lot. I plan to do some more books on it in the future.
> 
> I've lived that same thing with the lack of give. The words were there sometimes - shifty females will pretend, while shifty males withhold. But it's the same dang thing! The retraction from real love, real passion, and real connection. And I HATE it.
> 
> > I became very confrontational. I told him I would not feel for him_ any more_.
> 
> Brava! @Lilsnowy rises! I'm so happy you did that. And proud.


Thank you for the affirming words! I agree with you that withholding, lying or silence are a retraction of real love and all that goes with it. I want us all to live happy fulfilling lives, but sometimes we get waylaid on that way to that.


----------



## L

Lilsnowy said:


> It's great to see your awareness and personal growth. And yes, a man's relationship or feelings about his mother, whether right or wrong, can color his expectations and respect --or lack of -- for women in general. If his mother didn't treat him right his self worth may be deeply wounded and he may expect a woman to be "the answer," put on earth to build him up, or he may subconsciously see it as a chance to establish power that he didn't have as a child. To dish out what he couldn't to his mother.
> 
> There are many reasons but the important thing is, if he hates her or barely tolerates his mother, *hi ability to love and trust will likely be compromised*.


I'd like to point out that this is probably a better way to put it, rather than all men who don't like their mothers are evil misogynistic pigs. 

For instance, I don't really like my mother at all.

Should I be barred from relationships just because I don't like my mother? That doesn't seem very fair...


----------



## Lilsnowy

L said:


> I'd like to point out that this is probably a better way to put it, rather than all men who don't like their mothers are evil misogynistic pigs.
> 
> For instance, I don't really like my mother at all.
> 
> Should I be barred from relationships just because I don't like my mother? That doesn't seem very fair...


I would say, if you are on this forum and interested in self development then maybe you should evaluate your relationship with your mom, and any other women in your life, and be honest with yourself what you actually think and why. Or maybe ask people close to you how they see you in relationship to women. I've known a couple guys who had bad relationships with their mothers, and treated women just fine... until something when wrong like a break up or some other big problem. Then they were bitter with a vengeance. 

So bar yourself from relationships or not. It's up to you. If you think you need to work through some issues, you can do that. People here can help you in some ways if you need feedback.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> Thank you for the affirming words! I agree with you that withholding, lying or silence are a retraction of real love and all that goes with it. I want us all to live happy fulfilling lives, but sometimes we get waylaid on that way to that.


Your desire is pure ENFPness. I really despise retraction. It's my special enemy.


----------



## L

Lilsnowy said:


> I would say, if you are on this forum and interested in self development then maybe you should evaluate your relationship with your mom, and any other women in your life, and be honest with yourself what you actually think and why. Or maybe ask people close to you how they see you in relationship to women. I've known a couple guys who had bad relationships with their mothers, and treated women just fine... until something when wrong like a break up or some other big problem. Then they were bitter with a vengeance.
> 
> So bar yourself from relationships or not. It's up to you. If you think you need to work through some issues, you can do that. People here can help you in some ways if you need feedback.


I've never been in a relationship before.

I actually get along better with women then I do men. 

I've had people I thought were good friends kind of abandon me in the past couple of years and I don't hold anything against them, I just didn't have a place in their life I guess...

I just wanted to point out that not all men who have issues with their mother are bad people.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> Your desire is pure ENFPness. I really despise retraction. It's my special enemy.


I appreciate mutuality whether there is ENFPness or not but ENFPness is very special.  In the bible it says, to the man *who knows what to do*, and does not do it, to that man it's a sin. Emotionally abusive people often withhold good from the ones they profess to love. Withholding love or support when you *know* it would do the other person *good*, is evil.

We all drop the ball at times because we fail to notice something good we could do for someone else. But this is purposeful; it is* knowing *the person wants it or needs and refusing to give, when it is within your means to give, or when it is more important that it comes from you than anyone else. It makes me angry to think about it.


----------



## Lilsnowy

L said:


> I've never been in a relationship before.
> 
> I actually get along better with women then I do men.
> 
> I've had people I thought were good friends kind of abandon me in the past couple of years and I don't hold anything against them, I just didn't have a place in their life I guess...
> 
> I just wanted to point out that not all men who have issues with their mother are bad people.


That's true! Not all men who have bad relationships with their mothers are bad. I don't think that they are, but it can definitely impact them in some ways. It's good to gain an understanding of yourself.


----------



## Leliel

Red flags huh? let's see...

*They don't have enough in common with me
*They have too much in common with me
*They have quirks (you know, like the ones everybody has)
*They don't agree with me on everything
*They're not willing to be my project, even if I tell them that they need me to fix them
*I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm in a hole in the basement and they're telling me to rub the lotion on the skin


----------



## Feathers Falling

You gotta watch out for the insecure, unstable ones, I've been there!! But you also have to watch out for the charming psychopaths that just wanna use you and then crush you for their own sick pleasure. >.>


-When everything is just TOO perfect. (i.e. he agrees with all of your opinions and points of view as soon as you say them)
-When you feel like he's lying to you about something pretty obvious, just to calm your suspicions.... He probably is! (Listen to your intuition, don't ignore it!!)
-When he says his facebook has been down because his crazy ex-girlfriend hacked into it.
-When he has 3 different phones and phone numbers, but gives you one of the numbers.
-When he says he has crazy exs. (There's a reason for that!!!)
-When you compliment him and he's all happy because you're feeding his ego, but he just gives generic compliments in return.
-When you're at a party and some girl you never saw before gets close and acts pissed off at him, but he prevents you from talking to her, and says she's just some girl his friends tried to set him up with but he wasn't interested blah blah. Yeah fuckn RIGHT. 
-When he purposefully acts humble, but it's obvious he's very cocky and full of himself, and goes fishing for compliments.
-When your friends say he's not a good guy... Don't think you know better!!!! They're probably 99.99% right.
-When he's amazingly attractive, has a high sex drive, is amazing at sex, and is a pretty BA individual with a big ego, DON'T believe him when he said he never had a lot of girlfriends nor a threesome. >.>
-If he's amazing at sex, you can almost guarantee he's slept with many many others.
-If he has to be the alpha male, has a high opinion of himself, and treats others badly, then he's probably gunna treat you badly some day, too. 
-Makes you feel like you're the one special one, different from all those other girls.
-Doesn't introduce you to his friends.
-Ditches you and makes excuses and lies.
-Treats you disrespectfully and uses your anger and pain to manipulate you.
-He "accidentally" slips the words "I love you" at the same party that girl almost jumped him at. >.>
-Blames things on you, and doesn't apologize for hurting your feelings because he has too much pride(but won't admit it)
-Takes advantage of the fact that you're a nice, non-confrontational, forgiving person. 
-Uses your kindness to manipulate you and make you feel guilty.


Yeah... I was a dumb girl.


----------



## fguewriter

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> Yeah... I was a dumb girl.


I'm sorry you had to live through that. This is the kind of awful objectification (which all genders/orientations practice, obviously) that I'm at war with. It's so needless and so very wrong.

* hug! *


----------



## Lilsnowy

@cata.lyst.rawr, 

I feel for you, because I can see the positive things that are so incredibly attractive, but also the uneasy, sad feelings and fear that go with realizing a man has had many sex partners and has lied about his past and also about women in his present.

You weren't dumb, either. You were trusting and he was bad. That is not your fault. One thing on your list really jumped out at me: if your friends think he is bad, listen. We have all warned someone else and they didn't listen. Or we were warned ourselves. 

A reg flag that was probably listed before is confusion. If you are confused by your relationship, or feel off balance at times, there is a problem. Small confusing, red-flag moments can happen very early on. Also, users often won't invite you into their lives because they want to keep you a secret and get whatever they can from you, and also have no accountability for what they might be doing elsewhere or getting from someone else. Most abusers will invite you into their lives or be a part of yours, but they will act very differently in front of other people. They will secretly or not so secretly whittle away at your self esteem and get you to the point of feeling so uneasy, your world gets smaller and smaller.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> I feel for you, because I can see the positive things that are so incredibly attractive, but also the uneasy, sad, feelings and fear that go with realizing a man has had many sex partners and has lied about his past and also about women in his present.


Again, a lovely post on this subject so important to us both. Thank you.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> Again, a lovely post on this subject so important to us both. Thank you.


You're very welcome sweet ENFP writer.


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> You're very welcome sweet ENFP writer.


I'm so glad we're friendly. : )


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> I'm so glad we're friendly. : )


Me too!


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> Me too!


* big warm friend hug *

It's funny, but sometimes I feel like we're neighbors. Like you're just next door and we had coffee.


----------



## Lilsnowy

fguewriter said:


> * big warm friend hug *
> 
> It's funny, but sometimes I feel like we're neighbors. Like you're just next door and we had coffee.


As an ENFP, you know I will actually imagine that someday we _will_ have coffee. 

Fguewriter, will you be my ENFP homeslice?


----------



## fguewriter

Lilsnowy said:


> As an ENFP, you know I will actually imagine that someday we _will_ have coffee. - Fguewriter, will you be my ENFP homeslice?


As have I imagined!

I will, with pleasure. *love*


----------



## Feathers Falling

@_fguewriter_ - HUGS!!! thank you <3 <3 <3 <3 Glad we have a lot in common <3
@_Lilsnowy_ - ... exactly!! ;__; You completely understand. I had never been taken advantage of much at all before because I can usually spot the douche bags, but this one was an expert, and I didn't want to believe someone could be so mean... I was holding on to the very end because I thought, there's no way anyone could ever be this cruel... Then he humiliated me in front of all of his subordinates and sgts because they admire him for being such a terrible person.... Yeah that was the last fucking stupid red flag lol. Fuck that. I'm better than that. lolz.

I don't feel bad for being a trusting, forgiving person. I learned a lot, and glad I'm not so naive anymore!! If you're a silly little nice naive forgiving ENFP girl bouncing around your world of rainbows and unicorns, you're GOING to get taken advantage of sooner or later :/ I'm much more skeptical and careful about what I believe from guys. It's surprising seeing what I was so oblivious to before xD

BUT I'm pretty much 100% past it, and I'm so glad I'm not too jaded and scared. I come to find I'm still my open, mostly trusting ENFP self and that makes me HAPPY!! ;D haha <3 Life's more fun that way :3

#yayforNever-endingENFPenthusiasm :3


----------



## Feathers Falling

Also. If you feel like someone is disrespecting you, then DON'T FUCKING PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT. 

*HAVE ENOUGH RESPECT FOR YOURSELF TO NOT TAKE BAD TREATMENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE. *

Remove yourself far away from those people. You deserve better.

If they actually are good people and just had a 'douche bag moment', then they'll respect you for sticking up for yourself. They'll want to be in your life, and treat you better for your forgiveness.

If they're actually the douche bags you thought they were, then FUCK IT. Those people's acceptance of you DOES NOT MATTER. You're much better off without them in your life. 

Respect yourself <3


----------



## Lilsnowy

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> @_fguewriter_ - HUGS!!! thank you <3 <3 <3 <3 Glad we have a lot in common <3
> @_Lilsnowy_ - ... exactly!! ;__; You completely understand. I had never been taken advantage of much at all before because I can usually spot the douche bags, but this one was an expert, and I didn't want to believe someone could be so mean... I was holding on to the very end because I thought, there's no way anyone could ever be this cruel... Then he humiliated me in front of all of his subordinates and sgts because they admire him for being such a terrible person.... Yeah that was the last fucking stupid red flag lol. Fuck that. I'm better than that. lolz.
> 
> I don't feel bad for being a trusting, forgiving person. I learned a lot, and glad I'm not so naive anymore!! If you're a silly little nice naive forgiving ENFP girl bouncing around your world of rainbows and unicorns, you're GOING to get taken advantage of sooner or later :/ I'm much more skeptical and careful about what I believe from guys. It's surprising seeing what I was so oblivious to before xD
> 
> BUT I'm pretty much 100% past it, and I'm so glad I'm not too jaded and scared. I come to find I'm still my open, mostly trusting ENFP self and that makes me HAPPY!! ;D haha <3 Life's more fun that way :3
> 
> #yayforNever-endingENFPenthusiasm :3


It's sad that you had to go through that. I want to encourage you to listen to your intuition, and of course, still be open to a good man, because they are out there. I think men and women will always have a certain tension or separation, but respect and love are still possible, regardless of our innate differences. 

Though painfully gained, saying no to the bad was one of the best things I ever learned.


----------



## fguewriter

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> @_fguewriter_ - HUGS!!! thank you <3 <3 <3 <3 Glad we have a lot in common <3 ... #yayforNever-endingENFPenthusiasm :3


You and me both! *most excellent hugs and looking forward to more encounters with you, delightful spirit*

I regret so many males are as they are. I wish I could clobber them all on their heads and say "You don't have to be like this! You would get more of what you want if you acted decently and treated women like human beings! But nooooooooooooo!"

Ah well. Makes my kind the rarer. ; )


----------



## fguewriter

cata.lyst.rawr said:


> Also. If you feel like someone is disrespecting you, then DON'T FUCKING PUT UP WITH THAT SHIT.


I'm just going to love on yet another post from you. Yes I am! So glad you are here. : )


----------



## fguewriter

@Lilsnowy @cata.lyst.rawr - There is a New Age system of thought that has a saying perfectly apropos to our talk here: "Until you're able to say no, the universe won't say yes to you."


----------



## Echoe

Some advice I've been given that I like to follow: If they lie to you, or present a story that doesn't seem to add up or sets your gut off, get out.


----------



## spada

If they say "you're just my second sex partner", and later you discover they had some more. I wouldn't have a problem knowing a woman had many sex partners if i love the person and if i know she's honest with me, but acting like a saint and not being one is purely disrespect. 
I think a little honesty, trust and respect is too much to ask in a relationship.


----------



## Jimbo

For me red flags would be:
a) veganism
b) vegetarianism


Nothing worse than sitting up to some tofu or bean creation when all you want is a bit fat juicy steak!


----------



## Death Persuades

Echoe said:


> Some advice I've been given that I like to follow: If they lie to you, or present a story that doesn't seem to add up or sets your gut off, get out.


I fully agree. I learned this the hard way. I had this person who was a chronic liar and I knew it and I still was loyal to her... But not more. I'm done being someones doormat.


----------



## Echoe

ISFjosue0098 said:


> I fully agree. I learned this the hard way. I had this person who was a chronic liar and I knew it and I still was loyal to her... But not more. I'm done being someones doormat.



It happens. My ex was a pathological liar (who broke the aforementioned standard the second time we spoke, actually), and at heart I knew this too but didn't want to think my boyfriend was lying to me, so I buried my head in the sand. Lesson learned now, though.


----------



## TriggerHappy923

Jack Rabid said:


> I am starting this thread as a public service to us all.


1. He/she wants you to wear something more modest, even though you are already pretty modest. Red Flag
2. He tells you he wants your hair long, women shouldn't cut their hair. Caution
3. She starts talking about babies within the couple of dates (that goes with the OP's #1) Marathon Flag
4. He doesn't want you to wear make-up (future control freak, be careful, this is a sign for my #1 & 2) Red Flag/Communication
5. She tries to dress you, not talking about a gift. He/she doesn't like the clothes that you like. Backbone Move
6. She brings up her ex in conversations with your parents. Caution
7. She expects a gift every one month anniversary. "Fuck This" Flag
8. How he/she treats their sibling, if they treat them like shit Caution
9. Sometimes but not all the time, a red flag could be how they talk to their parents, but understand the situation first before you red flag it. Communicate why. If he/she answers, "I talk to them like shit because they were annoying." or something of the sort, then it's a red flag. Caution
10. Eats dog treats ew
11. You don't like their smell Red Flag
12. He/she wants to display PDA (if, you are not into it, the relationship won't last any way, because he/she is insecure) This could be a red flag Communication
13. ISTP Flag


----------



## The Roving ENFP

Alright, MEN! You need some help with how to deal with a relationship REDFLAG! Cool.. Then have a look at this video.. If you are in the middle of an argument, you really do need to learn how to deal with it properly!! Hehe..


----------



## will-o'-wisp

any kind of ultimatum


----------



## Fern

~ They say suicidal people need to "Get over it"
~ When it's all about them. Never any questions about you or your life; it's a monologue on their part, and s/he gets frustrated when you interject. Even bigger red flag if they make you feel stupid or dismissively say "I don't care" about virtually anything you obviously think is important.
~ This person blows up at you, insulting you, cutting you at a deep level... only to follow it up oh-so-kindly with something that is supposed to soften or reverse the blow. It's scary...
~ You notice a pattern of derogatory comments directed towards their exes that parallel passive-aggressive comments they make about you... This one's tricky to describe but if you've experienced it, you'll know _*exactly *_what I'm talking about
~ You met them when they were in a serious relationship-- but they did. not. act. like they were. Now they want to be with you. (Nooo, sir.)
~ Without a warning they report over text having experienced psychotic breaks with reality (scared me so much)
~ When you finally get the guts to self-disclose a truly awful moment in your life they respond by smirking and saying "Niiice."

And use your judgment. If you always leave interactions with this person feeling... dirty, that's a big one. My professor says he gets that feeling after talking to borderline patients and it's a pretty consistent gut reaction.

EDIT:Almost forgot; this is a big one:
They tell you they feel like they can only relate to young girls (This person is a 36-yr-old forever single type guy and you are an underage girl.) and constantly questions whether or not he is "A creep". When you jokingly referred to him as such (before knowing these feelings on his part )when you caught him watching you, he gets _*deeply*_offended. He is also *extremely *hard on other men his age who display similar behavior, using profanity, etc. Watch if he gets excited when you talk about breaking rules of any kind or offers to buy you a drink/drugs (*Whew*) Had to get this one out there.

Be safe, internet people!! Life is scary...


----------



## KilljoyKoala

I think everything is circumstantial. The one thing I will say, is, if someone professes their love to you after you've just met, they're probably trouble. Then there's the obvious things like they go hysterical over a disagreement or smack you or something.
Sometimes people really do have a stalker ex-lover, some people really have a reason for having no education, and so on.


----------



## 45130

When she says she might like you but *insert something here* *REDFLAG!!!

*when you feel like you should break up but she becomes coercive and resolute when you make the conversation drift in that direction *REDFLAG!!!

*When you feel like you should break up when someone else confesses to you but you don't actually like that person *REDFLAG!!!! *(for your own reasons of being with that person!omg)

(add to this, that entire feeling of having to break up. there's obviously something wrong, when you think that, but these red flags make it worse lol)


----------



## Hikikomori

They're breathing. Red Flag.


----------



## 45130

Hikikomori said:


> They're breathing. Red Flag.


this is something i intended to post here when i read some of the more inaccurate red flags.. XD


----------



## Blacktide

willow the wisp said:


> any kind of ultimatum



Your ultimatum is an ultimatum, you are now flagged :wink:.
"You should stop talking to your friends, I don't like them"
"My last ex was a psychopath"
"I NEED you"


----------



## fguewriter

Blacktide said:


> "My last ex was a psychopath"


Everyone's a damn psychopath today. It means "I don't like this." Meaningless term!


----------



## Brian1

when the person you just met is already putting you into a sugardaddy position, and you can't afford to play that part,even though you bring home the bacon, and she does not...or other parts of her family, RED FLAG.


----------



## Dr.Horrible

Aerorobyn said:


> If he asks you to marry him after being together only one month.  True story. It happens.


which personality type is most likely to fall for that? one of the INFP or INFJ?


----------



## sonnetfirelight

If he does things out of spite more than a few times RED FLAG!
If he threatens to sue you because you slept with someone when he was not in a relationship with you RED FLAG!
If he is talking about living together by the second date RED FLAG!
If the love of his life came from a royal family and she's not available, you won't measure up RED FLAG!

If he has impregnated more than 2 women, and he is 25 or younger, 3 or more if 28 or younger, etc RED FLAG!


----------



## sonnetfirelight

He puts you on a pedestal with a deceased ex-lover or a dying family member, saying you remind him of his dying mother or his fiancee who killed herself, etc. RED FLAG
If he begs you to talk to him and when you say you're busy, he gives you a visual of his suicide plans


Or compares your emotions to an ex lover he claimed physically abused him
I'm sure the name calling has been mentioned
Announces things (he is coming over now, etc.) without asking you or telling you in advance
Says he wants someone to spend his life with but it doesn't matter as much if it's you


or 

He begs you to kill him/assist him in suicide
If he *borrows* your money and lets you know when you'll get it back and he says basically it wasn't possible that he would have it by then
If you are a virgin and he accuses you of lying because you didn't bleed enough and he is very mad and dumps you...if you go back, expect this sort of fighting.
He tells you the first time he meets you he was kicked out of/deported from foreign country that has a good relationship with your country and doesn't say why
Out of nowhere he asks if he can go through your purse
He vandalizes ex girlfriends'/baby's momma's home
He stays at your place and says the charges were dropped (then later tells you the police were looking to arrest him)
Says he is the manifestation of the devil (or similar)


He will not let you pay for things necessary to health or survival when you are in need (food, water)
You have been on the phone for over an hour trying to explain to him why the relationship is over, he is still begging for another chance and claims you never argue....NO HOPE RED FLAG!
Refuses to get both of you checked for STDs and will not give a reason
Attends an important event but calls you and threatens to leave before he actually sees you at the event if you can't find each other (NOW!) at a very large event
All RED FLAGs!


----------



## Nowhere Man

"Do this or else you don't love me!"

"Do this or else I'll leave you!"

"Do this or else I'll kill myself!"

"Let's have a baby despite not even being able to take care of ourselves!"

"Let's jump out of this hotel window so we can die in each others' arms!"

I would say these things are all unquestionable red flags in ANY situation. True stories btw. :')


----------



## Killbain

If she knows all the words to "How much is that doggie in the window" RED FLAG


----------



## KKat

@TriggerHappy923 

Your number 13 struck a cord with me as I am in a relationship with an ISTP. It has been two years of the most confusing, sad, extremely happy and yet extremely unhappy, relationship I have ever had. We are still trying to make it work, and I wonder every day why I am still here, still trying, still fighting for something that at the end of the day does not fulfill me or supply me with what I need from a relationship.


----------



## Marie Claire

The following were red flags to me:

Is forty years old and has never had a girlfriend. 

Is 33 years old and still lives with his parents.

Is 45 years old and has never had a relationship last longer than one year.

Talks about his ex-wife at every opportunity.

Tells you how screwed up his ex-girlfriend was.


----------



## Chili990

A few red flags:

- Frequently talk about their ex boyfriend/girlfriend . Very likely means that they're still not over their previous relationship(s). Red flag.
- Talking about starting a family with you only after a few weeks. Red flag.
- Unpredictable behaviour - one minute you mean everything to them but the next they push you away with no apparent reason. Red flag.
- "I don't deserve you". Red flag.
- Insults your parents. Red flag. 
- Demands you to perform sexual acts that you don't want to do. *Huge *red flag. If this happens, dump them and never ever come back.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

this isn't so much relationships as dating but
1) they lie about their age
2) they text you "sorry, change of plans. I just got arrested"
3) they want to have sex before even getting to know you
4) they want to have sex without a condom
5) they talk about how they just kicked their last girlfriend's/boyfriend's ass
6) they switch from talking super dirty to finding bizarre things uncomfortable 
7) they want to meet up at midnight on the first date
8) they go on and on about how they want to kill themselves

.....all of these popped up with the last guy I was going to go on a date with. needless to say, I didn't.


----------



## Chevrotain

If they do not treat you with respect and dignity, on to the next one, no shame.


----------



## Brian1

You don't talk about anything,but you talk.

There's no sense of appreciation of the other person's efforts to help, a sense of entitlement. Not really seeing that a relationship is two people carrying the heavy burden together.

You already know they don't like your interests and hobbies.


----------



## TwistedMuses

I really hate when my boyfriend:
Brags about how good looking he is and girls glare at him.
B*tches about my gap year before university.
Forces me to enter university when I already stated I will do this.
Underestimates my chances to find a job for gap year.
Wants me to understand him while he rarely opens up.
Thinks women and men cannot be equal, but wants a smarter/wiser woman.


I have plenty red flags too, and I admit them:
I get easily emotionally attached to a person.
I need loads of motivation to get bigger things done.
I can't let go of bad relationships. ( I believe it's my worst point)
I analize things too much and end up upseting myself.
I used to nag a lot for about how my life sucks, but at the moment, I'm coping with it quite great.
Sometimes I rely on other people too much.
I used to avoid going to public with my boyfriend in his town, because I didn't feel attractvie enough, so I was afraid to shame him in front of his friends. ( I regret doing this)
I have my 'naive' moments.
I promise too much and don't carry them all out.


----------



## Pitseleh

As an INFJ, I would say - if my intuition tells me it's wrong, it really is.
Unfortunately, I don't usually listen...
No right to complain then, I know.:frustrating:


----------



## Devrim

If the other person begins to tell me I'm not so good looking,
Or general snide comments that they may not realize is demeaning you.

When they think making you jealous is a fun game to play!


----------



## whiterwair

This all depends on the people in the relationship, but some red flags for me personally, from my past relationships:

1. He stops communicating for unknown reasons (becomes distant, absent, doesn't contact me when he's late to meet up with me, not wanting to talk through disagreements; general sudden lack of communication)
2. He has no job for extended periods of time, and is not trying to find a job, and is not devoting his time to something important that would leave little time for a job
3. When I pay for everything because he has no job - I don't mind this temporarily, or if he's in school and/or devoting his time to something worthwhile, but after months of it, no.
4. He's dependent on his mom, dad, or anyone else, for things that adults should be taking care of themselves (job, money, bills, living alone, etc.)
5. He's drunk a lot
6. He is not thoughtful/doesn't seem to care much about me - he doesn't ask how my day was, doesn't check on me after a disagreement or after I was feeling down for whatever reason
7. He's a bad listener and doesn't seem to put any thought into helping me through a problem I (or anyone else) might be having
8. He doesn't have a curiosity for life; no direction whatsoever, is not really interested in much
9. He's verbally abusive

Also, the more obvious ones, such as: he talks badly about others unwarranted, treats his family poorly, has cheated before, spends a lot of time with girl friends/exes, etc.


----------



## TwistedMuses

gemofgreen said:


> This all depends on the people in the relationship, but some red flags for me personally, from my past relationships:
> 
> 1. *He stops communicating for unknown reasons (becomes distant, absent, doesn't contact me when he's late to meet up with me, not wanting to talk through disagreements; general sudden lack of communication)*
> 2. He has no job for extended periods of time, and is not trying to find a job, and is not devoting his time to something important that would leave little time for a job
> 3. When I pay for everything because he has no job - I don't mind this temporarily, or if he's in school and/or devoting his time to something worthwhile, but after months of it, no.
> 4. He's dependent on his mom, dad, or anyone else, for things that adults should be taking care of themselves (job, money, bills, living alone, etc.)
> 5. He's drunk a lot
> 6. *He is not thoughtful/doesn't seem to care much about me - he doesn't ask how my day was, doesn't check on me after a disagreement or after I was feeling down for whatever reason*
> 7. He's a bad listener and doesn't seem to put any thought into helping me through a problem I (or anyone else) might be having
> 8. He doesn't have a curiosity for life; no direction whatsoever, is not really interested in much
> 9. He's verbally abusive
> 
> Also, the more obvious ones, such as: he talks badly about others unwarranted, treats his family poorly, has cheated before, spends a lot of time with girl friends/exes, etc.


Been there, done that, crushed. We both dragged each other down with stupid stubborn attitudes.


----------



## HouseOfFlux

Try, try, _*try *_​not to get obsessed. Oh god.


----------



## Chaerephon

I just watch out for Borderline Personality Disorder. Those are the crazy ones, mostly because they see themselves as completely sane.


----------



## Fern

NameUser said:


> I just watch out for Borderline Personality Disorder. Those are the crazy ones, mostly because they see themselves as completely sane.


... Aaand are quick to label others as not sane.


----------



## Chaerephon

Fern said:


> ... Aaand are quick to label others as not sane.


Well they just met you... but you are the sanest person they have ever met. Every one else in their past victimized them. Of course in 6 months they will be passing exactly the same judgements over you.


----------



## Fern

NameUser said:


> Well they just met you... but you are the sanest person they have ever met. Every one else in their past victimized them. Of course in 6 months they will be passing exactly the same judgements over you.


Precisely. They are quick to label you with positive diagnoses such as "empath" (do you know me?...), and refer to everyone in their past with black-and-white thinking: Saint or Evil. Over the year I knew him, I witnessed people shifting from his favorable category to his black list *snaps* in a heart beat.
And the way they throw around the word sociopath in relation to exes -- it's just terrifying. 

Let's just say, I was lucky to only be friends with this person and decline its becoming something more... You just feel so dirty after every interaction, you know? Even when nothing "wrong" has transpired, there's still the feeling of emotional manipulation and what I believe is called ... "blending", is it? I'm sure you know what I mean.


----------



## Chaerephon

Fern said:


> Precisely. They are quick to label you with positive diagnoses such as "empath" (do you know me?...), and refer to everyone in their past with black-and-white thinking: Saint or Evil. Over the year I knew him, I witnessed people shifting from his favorable category to his black list *snaps* in a heart beat.
> And the way they throw around the word sociopath in relation to exes -- it's just terrifying.
> 
> Let's just say, I was lucky to only be friends with this person and decline its becoming something more... You just feel so dirty after every interaction, you know? Even when nothing "wrong" has transpired, there's still the feeling of emotional manipulation and what I believe is called ... "blending", is it? I'm sure you know what I mean.


Yes, unfortunately, I keep ending up dating these people.:blushed:They are tricky with their emotional hooks.:frustrating:


----------



## Fern

NameUser said:


> Yes, unfortunately, I keep ending up dating these people.:blushed:They are tricky with their emotional hooks.:frustrating:


I'm so sorry that keeps happening to you...

It _definitely _qualifies as a red flag - but a subtle one.
Where / How do you keep meeting these Borderline women?


----------



## Chaerephon

Fern said:


> I'm so sorry that keeps happening to you...
> 
> It _definitely _qualifies as a red flag - but a subtle one.
> Where / How do you keep meeting these Borderline women?


Ummm. I don't know. I meet women at school, through friends, nightclubs, parties, randomly talking to women. It makes me a bit skeptical of relationships, but I go on. I'm sure I can meet someone who isn't just pretending to be interested or has negative motives. This song basically describes it for me lmao.


----------



## Fern

NameUser said:


> Ummm. I don't know. I meet women at school, through friends, nightclubs, parties, randomly talking to women. It makes me a bit skeptical of relationships, but I go on. I'm sure I can meet someone who isn't just pretending to be interested or has negative motives. This song basically describes it for me lmao.



Dang. So true.




> I'm sure I can meet someone who isn't just pretending to be interested or has negative motives.



Oh, *absolutely*. And the horrible luck has probably made you a stronger, deeper persona that has more to bring to a healthy relationship anyway (I hope it does not bother you to have me say so - but I do see you are a 4)


----------



## Chaerephon

Fern said:


> Dang. So true.
> 
> 
> Oh, *absolutely*. And the horrible luck has probably made you a stronger, deeper persona that has more to bring to a healthy relationship anyway (I hope it does not bother you to have me say so - but I do see you are a 4)


I like to think it has lol. But maybe I just attract like minded individuals.:shocked:

Seriously though, as much as I don't like to admit it, it has affected me. C'est la vie, hopefully the woman I went out with last night is different/ still interested lol.


----------



## Fern

NameUser said:


> I like to think it has lol. But maybe I just attract like minded individuals.:shocked:
> 
> Seriously though, as much as I don't like to admit it, it has affected me. C'est la vie, hopefully the woman I went out with last night is different/ still interested lol.


Fingers crossed!


----------



## TwistedMuses

Mzansi said:


> If the other person begins to tell me I'm not so good looking,
> Or general snide comments that they may not realize is demeaning you.
> 
> When they think making you jealous is a fun game to play!


What kind of a dumb narcissist could spout such dirt on you?
You're so far one of the most gorgeous guys on this forum, I must say.



Red flags:
Your main principles and values are like day and night.
Constant dishonesty and secretiveness.
Closed-off personality.
Your SO picks on you because you do not dress up as he/she wants you to.
Disrespects your musical, fashion and movie, thoughts and values.
Complete mamma's boy... (The worst type, at least for me)


----------



## Devrim

TwistedMuses said:


> What kind of a dumb narcissist could spout such dirt on you?
> You're so far one of the most gorgeous guys on this forum, I must say.
> 
> 
> 
> Red flags:
> Your main principles and values are like day and night.
> Constant dishonesty and secretiveness.
> Closed-off personality.
> Your SO picks on you because you do not dress up as he/she wants you to.
> Disrespects your musical, fashion and movie, thoughts and values.
> Complete mamma's boy... (The worst type, at least for me)



Oh it has happened before,
Well once,
With my previous Ex,
He was just insecure and abusive though.

Life goes on 

But AWWW SHUCKS :blushed:

You flatter me too much my dear xD


----------



## Chesire Tower

ForsakenMe said:


> _"But I'm a nice/good guy!"_


:laughing:

The sad reality, is that those kind of answers are far from uncommon on OkC.


----------



## AustenT09

TwistedMuses said:


> Red flags:
> Your main principles and values are like day and night.
> Constant dishonesty and secretiveness.
> Closed-off personality.
> Your SO picks on you because you do not dress up as he/she wants you to.
> Disrespects your musical, fashion and movie, thoughts and values.
> Complete mamma's boy... (The worst type, at least for me)


Agree with all of these, and suffered at the hands of them in my last relationship.


----------



## TwistedMuses

AustenT09 said:


> Agree with all of these, and suffered at the hands of them in my last relationship.


Sorry to hear that! Are you better now?


----------



## Laguna

Scraps and an occasional bone thrown your way is not the least bit satisfying.
After awhile, it's boring and unfulfilling. If you are giving and not getting---- 
stop giving.


----------



## Mostly Harmless

edit: never mind, stupid idea/post.


----------



## Bennantg

I agree.


----------



## AustenT09

TwistedMuses said:


> Sorry to hear that! Are you better now?


Much better. Thanks for asking.


----------



## TwistedMuses

AustenT09 said:


> Much better. Thanks for asking.


Happy to hear! Welcome :3


----------



## Caged Within

TriggerHappy923 said:


> 13. ISTP Flag


----------



## TriggerHappy923

Caged Within said:


>


No, actually to be honest, I meant to write ISTJ, but I thought it was too late to change it. ISTPs are pretty cool actually.


----------



## Caged Within

TriggerHappy923 said:


> No, actually to be honest, I meant to write ISTJ, but I thought it was too late to change it. ISTPs are pretty cool actually.


Maybe it's luck, or a divide among the sexes, but my run-in with them on an intimate level wasn't bad. I used to roll with a female ISTJ. Though she was older than me, it was fun being the Virgil to her Dante, taking her down my way, showing her things she never saw, and doing things with her she never did.


----------



## jishellemu

If he says he likes adventure and can't stay in one place for too long :/


----------



## koalaroo

If they raged at you for several minutes for not trusting them "enough" while they've done everything to erode it.


----------



## Grad0507

Jack Rabid said:


> I am starting this thread as a public service to us all..
> 
> It seems so many of us have been burned by love that maybe if we paid attention to
> those little red flags, we wouldn't have been..
> 
> But what if you don't know what to look for?
> 
> That is why this thread could be a handy reference to us all..
> 
> Please share you own.. the more the merrier
> 
> 1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
> 2- If she has collection agencies calling everyday.. Red Flag
> 3- If she has moved 6 times in the last 3 years..Red Flag
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 5- If every little coincidence is somehow a magical moment of synchronicity and fate.. Red Flag
> 6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag
> 
> what do you have?? :crazy:


I disagree with #3. I moved that often because my ex kept getting evicted, and I went where he went...until I couldn't take it anymore.


----------



## OutOfThisWorld

Jack Rabid said:


> 3- If she has moved 6 times in the last 3 years..Red Flag


I'll have to disagree with this one...I moved like 6 times in 4 years before to different places (in the same city) because either the rent was cheaper or because my roommates sucked...


----------



## Aquamarine

Is it a red flag if my SO shows off the experiences he had with his ex? Maybe I am being oversensitive, but I get really irritated by that.


----------



## Togami

Powerhouse said:


> Is it a red flag if my SO shows off the experiences he had with his ex? Maybe I am being oversensitive, but I get really irritated by that.


That's an obnoxious habit. Red flag or not, if it's annoying or upsetting you, you should address it before it turns into some sort of resentment. In my opinion, the real red flag would be if he starts making fun of you in response or refuses to hear you out when you try to explain.


----------



## Aquamarine

Togami said:


> That's an obnoxious habit. Red flag or not, if it's annoying or upsetting you, you should address it before it turns into some sort of resentment. In my opinion, the real red flag would be if he starts making fun of you in response or refuses to hear you out when you try to explain.


Turns out he just wasn't aware that it has upset me and it wasn't his intention to brag. I've expressed about my annoyance already, and he was willing to listen. :happy: No red flag.


----------



## Animal

Not sure how general this is, but these are some of my pet peeves.

- *Ridiculously nice.* (This could turn to anything from passive aggressive to sociopathic later on, plus it bores me.)
- *Tries to hook up right away.* (No interest in who I am as a person, desperate, cheap. I'm demisexual and not attracted to strangers no matter how hot, so this is especially gross to me.)
- *No fear of rejection.* (Unromantic, not invested enough.)
- *Politically liberal. * (For friends this is fine but I won't be intimate with a liberal. I have no interest in flings and bullshit and I can't get seriously invested in the idea of spending my life with a liberal. I don't mind disagreements, debates turn me on, but I need a basic foundation where we understand each other fundamentally. I love all kinds of friends but I need my partner to fight by my side.)
- *No sense of purpose.* (I have a strong sense of purpose and I need someone to give me space to fulfill my purpose. If he doesn't have his own, he won't understand and will feel neglected.)
- *Not sensual. *(I need sexual, sensual, etc. My love language is physical touch and I'm not satisfied with JUST sex.. I need to sit in his lap, cuddle, curl up against him like a cat.)
- *Not sexual.* (My sexual appetite is alive and well.)
- *Doesn't like to argue or fight.* (I am usually very relaxed, but sometimes I'm a tornado running over a volcano in an earthquake.)
- *Very social.* (Having friends and going out sometimes is fine, but I don't want to be dragged into too much of that, and I generally have nothing in common with people like this.)
- *Likes porn.* (Okay.. I can make an exception if he is just mildly into it, but I find it disgusting and I am not planning to imitate that un-intimate forced fake bullshit in bed, so if that is what turns him on, I'm not the one. Again, I don't mind this with friends, but I won't satisfy a partner who is very into porn.)
- *Too positive.* (Barf. Gimme something REAL and human please.)
*- Tells me to "stay positive."* (Once is too many. Twice, you're gone. I don't qualify positive vs. negative as "good vs. bad." To me the scale of goodness is honest vs. dishonest. "Stay positive" when I'm upset is dishonest. So this request, advice or demand means we are not compatible.)
- *Watches a lot of TV.* (I don't watch tv, and the sound bothers me, so I would have a hard time falling asleep in a bed with a tv, eating dinner in peace with a tv, writing my book with a tv in the next room etc. Plus people who watch tv have a whole culture that I'm not part of and have no interest in becoming immersed in.)
- *Constant family gatherings which I am expected to attend.* (I really love doing this sometimes. Long events every weekend is exhausting.)
- *Bitchy about my male friends. * (I have never cheated in my life and I've always had male friends. I'm blatantly honest, even blunt to the point of rude. Three of my close male friends have known me since we were 5, 11, and 15 respectively - and never hooked up. Obviously I'm capable of being FRIENDS with a man, and I'm very clear about my boundaries. I get along better with men, but I am not flirting or cheating. I am probably talking about my awesome boyfriend the whole time anyway. Oh, and bonus, I'm not jealous of female friends either. If I can't trust my partner, the issue goes beyond who he's friends with, and I will not stay with someone who isn't trustworthy.)


----------



## d e c a d e n t

If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.


----------



## Ferin

*1. *Says you are allowed to have space *but* only if they're included in what you want to do on your own... WHAT? Just say *"You're not allowed to have space"
2.* Also says personal space in a relationship is not important and they will not be with a person who needs space.
*3.* Has a trauma or PTSD that they are unwilling to tell you the whole truth about but says that you should trust them. I understand that it is hard to talk about and open up but *if you ignore it forever it won't just disappear* speaking from experience and comes back out very UNRULY in a defensive manner.
*4.* Stubborn about talking about issues and unwillingness to change them.
*5. Avolition* *without remorse and the desire to change.* Everyone has this at some point most likely but if you don't want to become motivated, what do you really want anyways? 
*6.* Trapping you into a fight, not letting you leave, go for a walk, and get your emotions out because they're selfish and more concerned you wont come back. This happens to me all the time and *only makes me* *more anxious*, frustrated, angry and unwilling to cooperate and have a peaceful conversation.
*7. *Gets upset when you say something positive about someone of the opposite sex (or same or both) even when you are speaking generally like a co-worker, waitress, nurse, ex. *"Oh my new co-worker is very nice and friendly" does not mean I immediately have feelings for them or are interested in them. It had nothing to do with you.
8.* They have no patience with things that you have plenty of patience for or that are irrelevant to you.
*9.* They get mad when you don't spend all of your lunch break texting them and a fight ensues because they have set the expectation that you respond immediately when you are on break because it is "their time to have your undivided attention"
*10. *Red flag #9 happens *when you already text all day long while you are at work* because you already were trying to please this person.
*11.* A call is required after work every day on the drive home.
*12.* They refuse to believe they are controlling and blame it on you not giving enough attention instead. 
*13. *Tells you not to do something specifically and then hypocritically does it towards you.
*14.* You have to *walk on eggshells* when you talk to them for *fear of conflict.*
*15.* *You are told everything is always your fault.
16.* You feel manipulated to do things you don't want to anyway. 
*17.* You live together and have no space to yourself in your own house.
*18.* They say you can't see your friends without them.
*19.* They say *you can't see your parents without them* (they don't want to come off poorly because they don't want to go so are selfish and make you lie about why you can't come instead).
*20. They make you feel like you can't be yourself anymore, and you aren't. 

*
Seriously I need to get out of this relationship I dug myself into. /endrant


----------



## koalaroo

@_Ferin_ -- I see the crazy thing as very insulting. My abusive ex used it to rile me up and get me more upset, and usually that's the goal of people who use that word when describing someone else. Also, with no provocation now, he openly refers to me as his crazy ex, mainly because I figured him out and exposed him as deeply narcissistic. But anyway, yeah, a lot of people DO use the word crazy as a complete and utter slur to rile people up.


----------



## x_Rosa_x

Not sexually passionate
Is being conflicting.
Being anti anything.
looks horrible.
not somewhat controlling and dominating .
not wanting sex.
does not prefer quiet and peace.
seriously dramatic .


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

xXxRosexXx said:


> Not sexually passionate
> Is being conflicting.
> Being anti anything.
> looks horrible.
> not somewhat controlling and dominating .
> not wanting sex.
> does not prefer quiet and peace.
> seriously dramatic .


How is not wanting sex a red flag? That makes me a walking red flag actually.


----------



## Ferin

koalaroo said:


> @_Ferin_ -- I see the crazy thing as very insulting. My abusive ex used it to rile me up and get me more upset, and usually that's the goal of people who use that word when describing someone else. Also, with no provocation now, he openly refers to me as his crazy ex, mainly because I figured him out and exposed him as deeply narcissistic. But anyway, yeah, a lot of people DO use the word crazy as a complete and utter slur to rile people up.


I completely understand that and would never want to cause someone that pain. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. I hope things are better now.

I just meant in general use, I don't use it as a derogatory term. Shes called me crazy plenty of times, so I guess I should specify that its one-sided. If I say "wow that is crazy" about something peculiar or bizarre, it is offensive to her as well. Thank you so much for the perspective though, I can definitely see the trauma associated with the word. I have edited my post to be more meaningful.


----------



## koalaroo

Ferin said:


> I completely understand that and would never want to cause someone that pain. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. I hope things are better now.
> 
> I just meant in general use, I don't use it as a derogatory term. Shes called me crazy plenty of times, so I guess I should specify that its one-sided. If I say "wow that is crazy" about something peculiar or bizarre, it is offensive to her as well. Thank you so much for the perspective though, I can definitely see the trauma associated with the word. I have edited my post to be more meaningful.


It's all good and it makes sense now.


----------



## phoenix_9

Ferin said:


> [/B]
> Seriously I need to get out of this relationship I dug myself into. /endrant


Ferin-love your avatar...FFX was the first video game I really got into...I mean...way into...

Sorry about your troubles man...been there done that...Sound like you have a doozy there. If you're dealing with all that you got a helluva control freak on your hands. -_-


----------



## dragthewaters

Tells you, "If we ever get serious, I want to contact my ex from five years ago one last time, 'for closure.'"


----------



## Ferin

phoenix_9 said:


> Ferin-love your avatar...FFX was the first video game I really got into...I mean...way into...
> 
> Sorry about your troubles man...been there done that...Sound like you have a doozy there. If you're dealing with all that you got a helluva control freak on your hands. -_-


Thanks! I actually just recently changed it, it is beautiful and resonates with me. I love your phoenix!

Playing this as a kid, I was profoundly inspired and encapsulated by the incredible story. I never thought that a video game could make me feel so much emotion as I did when I played this. I am with you on that front, I could not stop playing and re-playing it. Tidus and Yuna's relationship and all of the friendships and loyalty between the other characters was just fascinating to me, it seemed SO REAL. It really is what got me into large story-driven games. Kingdom Hearts was another big one for me that I spent forever playing. 

And thanks. It has been a rough road. Trying to get through it as best I can. Its hard to just give up when you live together and you love the person so much. I guess sometimes love is only part of the equation, I really just want to feel like I can be myself and don't have to change everything about myself to please her. Speaking of that, this made me think of another red flag.

*21.* They don't like FFX.


----------



## Ziwosa

thismustbetheplace said:


> Tells you, "If we ever get serious, I want to contact my ex from five years ago one last time, 'for closure.'"


Tell me you ran from that, please?


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Ferin said:


> Thanks! I actually just recently changed it, it is beautiful and resonates with me. I love your phoenix!
> 
> Playing this as a kid, I was profoundly inspired and encapsulated by the incredible story. I never thought that a video game could make me feel so much emotion as I did when I played this. I am with you on that front, I could not stop playing and re-playing it. Tidus and Yuna's relationship and all of the friendships and loyalty between the other characters was just fascinating to me, it seemed SO REAL. It really is what got me into large story-driven games. Kingdom Hearts was another big one for me that I spent forever playing.
> 
> And thanks. It has been a rough road. Trying to get through it as best I can. Its hard to just give up when you live together and you love the person so much. I guess sometimes love is only part of the equation, I really just want to feel like I can be myself and don't have to change everything about myself to please her. Speaking of that, this made me think of another red flag.
> 
> *21.* They don't like FFX.


I doomed then. I hate FFX. Next to FFXIII and The Last Remnant it's the worse story I've played. It has some good comments when you're young but as an adult? No. More easily will I take Metal Gear Rising seriously.


----------



## Ferin

Jetstream Aya said:


> I doomed then. I hate FFX. Next to FFXIII and The Last Remnant it's the worse story I've played. It has some good comments when you're young but as an adult? No. More easily will I take Metal Gear Rising seriously.


I guess I haven't really played it since I've been older so you are probably right. I could never get into The Last Remnant either. I'm 24 now and I think it was just one of the dreamy lucid childhood experiences I can remember. Since I have been in this relationship, I have not played games anymore. My girlfriend does not enjoy them and the only thing we can play together is Mario Kart. Even that doesn't hold her attention. I plan to start living for myself and experiencing all the things I have missed after today though. This thread and a few others has gotten the ball rolling for me to stand up for myself and not be the real Ned Schneebly from School of Rock. I feel quite liberated. 

Metal Gear Rising is first on that to do list thanks to you!


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Ferin said:


> I guess I haven't really played it since I've been older so you are probably right. I could never get into The Last Remnant either. I'm 24 now and I think it was just one of the dreamy lucid childhood experiences I can remember. Since I have been in this relationship, I have not played games anymore. My girlfriend does not enjoy them and the only thing we can play together is Mario Kart. Even that doesn't hold her attention. I plan to start living for myself and experiencing all the things I have missed after today though. This thread and a few others has gotten the ball rolling for me to stand up for myself and not be the real Ned Schneebly from School of Rock. I feel quite liberated.
> 
> Metal Gear Rising is first on that to do list thanks to you!


Actually, I'm a year younger than you, I guess I just gamed more.
The Last Remnant is very pretty, like FFXII, and fun, but the story and characters are so cringe worthy. I like how much the game makes you think in each fight, though, specially when you have more than three units.
Me and my fiancée play games together. Torchlight II, Team Fortress 2, we even tried to play some MOBAs but it's not really his style.
You do that. If she doesn't respect your interests, she's no good to you. It's what I always say.

Have you played any other MG game? Or rather, have you played Metal Gear Solid 2?


----------



## phoenix_9

Jetstream Aya said:


> Actually, I'm a year younger than you, I guess I just gamed more.
> The Last Remnant is very pretty, like FFXII, and fun, but the story and characters are so cringe worthy. I like how much the game makes you think in each fight, though, specially when you have more than three units.
> Me and my fiancée play games together. Torchlight II, Team Fortress 2, we even tried to play some MOBAs but it's not really his style.
> You do that. If she doesn't respect your interests, she's no good to you. It's what I always say.
> 
> Have you played any other MG game? Or rather, have you played Metal Gear Solid 2?


Metal Gear IV is the tits...played the shit outta that...makes me want to play it r'now..ha

Ferin-Yeah I played Kingdom Hearts 2 and got way into that...then 1...Those games make me feel like a child again..that's what special about them for me... 

More power to you for what you're dealing with...definitely been there...but you've got to fight for your very SELF sometimes...do not forsake your self for someone else's need/dysfunction...ever.


----------



## Fern

Racism. Just.... racism in any form. Red flag.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Fern said:


> Racism. Just.... racism in any form. Red flag.


Or transphobia. Or xenophobia. Or homophobia.


----------



## aendern

If they say "I could care less . . . "

huge red flag.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Being envious of your hobbies is a big nonononono


----------



## Ferin

Jetstream Aya said:


> Actually, I'm a year younger than you, I guess I just gamed more.
> The Last Remnant is very pretty, like FFXII, and fun, but the story and characters are so cringe worthy. I like how much the game makes you think in each fight, though, specially when you have more than three units.
> Me and my fiancée play games together. Torchlight II, Team Fortress 2, we even tried to play some MOBAs but it's not really his style.
> You do that. If she doesn't respect your interests, she's no good to you. It's what I always say.
> 
> Have you played any other MG game? Or rather, have you played Metal Gear Solid 2?


Video games have always been a huge part of my life, I guess I never realized how much I would miss them when I wasn't playing anymore. It really stemmed from my current girlfriend moving in with me. Once she was living with me, everything changed. I felt like I couldn't be myself anymore because she was always needing me to spend all my time with her. I have a huge library of PC games on Steam, I've been building computers since I was 14 and I even built my girlfriend one capable of playing everything because she led me to believe that it would be something that interested her. My circle of friends has always played MMOs together since we were all in high school and we also would always play tons of XBOX/PS3 games when we would hang out. Now I hardly see them and don't play games with them anymore which was really one of the main ways we would all stay in touch since everyone is always busy with life.

It seems a lot clearer to me now that I obviously hold resentment against this as you are right. She doesn't respect my interests and it makes me question her love. She says she loves me more than anything but I have always supported everything she wants to do and she is just selfishly pulling me from the things that give me joy. She is riddled with insecurity that doesn't even have to do with me and fills the void with needing me to spend every minute with her. 

Anyways, not going to rant. I need someone who is like your fiancée and will actually *want* to indulge my hobby with me. I loved Torchlight, Torchlight II, and TF2. I got into League and tried playing DOTA 2 a little bit but it is also not my style. I played Guild Wars for the longest time, I love how the skills were setup and that you needed a lot of strategy and a good team to really get through it. Also no subscription and no grinding in GW. I'd say one of my favorite series is Borderlands. 

And yesss! I have played MGS 1, 2 and 3. Always wanted to play 4 but never got it for anything. I know, I know, what is wrong with me right?


----------



## Ferin

phoenix_9 said:


> Metal Gear IV is the tits...played the shit outta that...makes me want to play it r'now..ha
> 
> Ferin-Yeah I played Kingdom Hearts 2 and got way into that...then 1...Those games make me feel like a child again..that's what special about them for me...
> 
> More power to you for what you're dealing with...definitely been there...but you've got to fight for your very SELF sometimes...do not forsake your self for someone else's need/dysfunction...ever.


I love re-living my childhood through video games. They are so very nostalgic and sensory heightening! It just makes me sad when I realize how amazing I used to think Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time looked and how they actually look haha. Technology advances so quickly.

And thanks for all the support.  I really am going to start doing more for myself. Joining PerC was the best thing that has happened to me in a long while. It has really opened my eyes.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Ferin said:


> Video games have always been a huge part of my life, I guess I never realized how much I would miss them when I wasn't playing anymore. It really stemmed from my current girlfriend moving in with me. Once she was living with me, everything changed. I felt like I couldn't be myself anymore because she was always needing me to spend all my time with her.


I know the feeling. My ex boyfriend couldn't have me playing anything. I remember beating both No More Heroes and Madworld on his Wii and he got so envious about it. I was trying to have fun while playing with him, but he just wanted cuddles and whatnot. It's very suffocating. I left him soon after. My fiancée is also a gamer and I have give him some of the games we owns, including some of his favourites.



> It seems a lot clearer to me now that I obviously hold resentment against this as you are right. She doesn't respect my interests and it makes me question her love. She says she loves me more than anything but I have always supported everything she wants to do and she is just selfishly pulling me from the things that give me joy. She is riddled with insecurity that doesn't even have to do with me and fills the void with needing me to spend every minute with her.


That was my problem with my ex. Exactly the same problems. He was riddled with insecurities and fears that he wouldn't let me live my life and when I talked about my friends (which are mostly male) he would get envious and aggressive. He knew very well that most of my friends are male. He was a sweet, but that wasn't enough for me. I need understanding and compassion towards my way to be. My very quiet but also very outgoing and loud, I need someone who understands this. He didn't. He didn't understand my problems either and that was very frustrating.



> I need someone who is like your fiancée and will actually *want* to indulge my hobby with me.


It's not very easy to find, but when you do is very rewarding.



> I loved Torchlight, Torchlight II, and TF2.


They're very fun and engaging games. I have a level 70 Engie on Torchlight II.



> I got into League and tried playing DOTA 2 a little bit but it is also not my style. I played Guild Wars for the longest time, I love how the skills were setup and that you needed a lot of strategy and a good team to really get through it. Also no subscription and no grinding in GW. I'd say one of my favorite series is Borderlands.


I don't play many online games, they usually bore me to death. I need to play Borderlands one of these days.



> And yesss! I have played MGS 1, 2 and 3. Always wanted to play 4 but never got it for anything. I know, I know, what is wrong with me right?


You know Raiden, that's what is important for Rising. Though I suggest you playing MGS4. It starts off very slowly, but it's a very emotional game, though my favourite one is Snake Eater.


----------



## iconoclasmos

Ferin said:


> Video games have always been a huge part of my life, I guess I never realized how much I would miss them when I wasn't playing anymore. It really stemmed from my current girlfriend moving in with me. ?


Have you explained to her how she makes you feel smothered? That sounds like a situation no sane person could tolerate forever. Maybe if she understood the depth of your discomfort she might realize this and stop.


----------



## Ferin

Jetstream Aya said:


> I know the feeling. My ex boyfriend couldn't have me playing anything. I remember beating both No More Heroes and Madworld on his Wii and he got so envious about it. I was trying to have fun while playing with him, but he just wanted cuddles and whatnot. It's very suffocating. I left him soon after. My fiancée is also a gamer and I have give him some of the games we owns, including some of his favourites.
> 
> That was my problem with my ex. Exactly the same problems. He was riddled with insecurities and fears that he wouldn't let me live my life and when I talked about my friends (which are mostly male) he would get envious and aggressive. He knew very well that most of my friends are male. He was a sweet, but that wasn't enough for me. I need understanding and compassion towards my way to be. My very quiet but also very outgoing and loud, I need someone who understands this. He didn't. He didn't understand my problems either and that was very frustrating.
> 
> It's not very easy to find, but when you do is very rewarding.
> 
> They're very fun and engaging games. I have a level 70 Engie on Torchlight II.
> 
> I don't play many online games, they usually bore me to death. I need to play Borderlands one of these days.
> 
> You know Raiden, that's what is important for Rising. Though I suggest you playing MGS4. It starts off very slowly, but it's a very emotional game, though my favourite one is Snake Eater.


It's nice to talk to someone who has been through a similar situation. I always thought I would grow out of wanting to play games but the stories and excitement is always going to be fun and I will always be a gamer at heart. 

I can agree with you on the suffocating part. I feel like I can't play anything unless she's asleep or actually doing something on her own which is not very often. She recently just asked me to only stay an hour at my work's Christmas party which is 4 hours long with tons of events. Her only reasoning is because she doesn't want to be alone. Doesn't care that I want to enjoy the party and stick around and see if I won any of the raffles. 

It's so fascinating to me how the insecurity triggers all of these problems. I've seen it in other people too. I do everything I possibly can to make her feel secure but I can't make her deal with her own problems. I know what you mean about not living your life. The friends thing should never happen. I have that problem as well. Most of my friends are male but one of my best friends is female and we have been friends for such a long time. We have never had any romantic involvement nor have I ever wanted to. I get the same deal though where I can tell she is jealous and it makes no sense to me, its very frustrating. I have to stop trying to always keep the peace and deal with it. I feel the way you do and I definitely need someone who wants to be with me *for me* not to change me. I am always going to be this way. I am quiet and like my alone time to play games, read, research but the other 50% of the time I crave excitement and want to be outside doing something adventurous or going out with friends. As awful as it sounds and that I hate to admit, I feel like I am wasting my life away doing nothing but working and sitting around watching netflix with her sometimes. 

Online games are mainly fun because I have a group of friends to play with while we all skype or ventrilo. It's not as fun without a guild or people to talk to IMO. I definitely recommend Borderlands. It will suck you in if you like RPG elements to go along with your shooters. The quests are exciting and the characters are funny and there are endless combinations of weapons that you can find. I love the skills that your character can get. Borderlands 2 was even better and I'm excited to play the Pre-Sequel. I will definitely have MGS4 and Rising on the gaming bucket list!

Thanks for giving me hope that I can find a love like this. I am sorry you had to go through that but good for you for getting out of it and finding true happiness! It's experiences like these that make us learn and I can't regret my relationship for that. It has shown me so many things, and it's what brought me to this wonderful forum with all the caring and compassionate individuals like yourself.


----------



## Ferin

iconoclasmos said:


> Have you explained to her how she makes you feel smothered? That sounds like a situation no sane person could tolerate forever. Maybe if she understood the depth of your discomfort she might realize this and stop.


It might be too far gone at this point. I feel as though I have "checked out" of the relationship. I really just need to end things. Not the best time of year to do it and there are lots of things she is expecting to happen. I can't propose to her, she has been forcing it down my throat for months and telling me I need to give her a date when it's happening because I promised her I wanted it. This was before I realized how much I was being manipulated and forced to change by her. To me, it feels like she just doesn't want to be alone and is in denial because she says I should feel the "need" to propose. She also wants me to get a tattoo with her now. It's just endless reaching out for security from her because she knows she holds me down and is always afraid I am going to leave. But she was like this before she even needed to worry about that. She just refuses to accept it and listens to my concerns when we talk to about them but a day or so later she is back how she normally is. 

I'd love to feel like I used to with her but sometimes I feel like it is impossible to go back to how we were. Once she started staying over every night and then she pressured me to let her move in (constant hinting, never would go home, started leaving all her stuff over, I still had a roomate at the time) everything went downhill and I lost one of my close friends, the roomate, because of her and how she handles problems (the opposite way that I do, she is very confrontational and doesn't care about other people's motives). It was better once we were on our own for a while but then spiraled back into being argumentative and I always felt like I was defensive and walking on eggshells around her. I wish she could understand all of these things I feel. I wrote her a 5 page letter explaining how I felt and she begged me not to break up with her. I gave in of course and wanted to give it one last shot but I just really don't feel that "loving" feeling that I used to. I think that my gut has already decided for me that it's time to move on.

Thank you for your concern! It really is great to have all the support from you guys.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker

Ferin said:


> It's nice to talk to someone who has been through a similar situation. I always thought I would grow out of wanting to play games but the stories and excitement is always going to be fun and I will always be a gamer at heart.


Playing games is something you don't simply grow out of. It's simple taking a walk to your favourite store, you don't simply grow out of it.



> I can agree with you on the suffocating part. I feel like I can't play anything unless she's asleep or actually doing something on her own which is not very often.


Because he always wanted me to be with him, it left me with little time to play or my friends I started bringing my cell phone along. He got envious of that too. I liked showed him funny things my friends posted and told me. It was a trust sharing of "you might meet these people". He didn't see it like that and that's sad.



> She recently just asked me to only stay an hour at my work's Christmas party which is 4 hours long with tons of events. Her only reasoning is because she doesn't want to be alone. Doesn't care that I want to enjoy the party and stick around and see if I won any of the raffles.


I hate when people do that. It's so annoying. If you're scared buy a dog to protect you.
Can't she go to the party with you?



> Thanks for giving me hope that I can find a love like this. I am sorry you had to go through that but good for you for getting out of it and finding true happiness! It's experiences like these that make us learn and I can't regret my relationship for that. It has shown me so many things, and it's what brought me to this wonderful forum with all the caring and compassionate individuals like yourself.


You're welcome. No need to apologize, good things only come after the tempest.


----------



## Zuflex

Ferin said:


> Not the best time of year to do it and there are lots of things she is expecting to happen. I can't propose to her, she has been forcing it down my throat for months and _telling me I need to give her a date when it's happening because I promised her I wanted it._


*shocked* "promised i wanted it" OMG WTF

"walking on eggshells around her" Nearest exit? 

"I wish she could understand all of these things I feel" She can't, obviously 

"I wrote her a 5 page letter explaining how I felt and she begged me not to break up with her." she begs for herself. The real question is, why don't you do it for yourself. Saying no is not your biggest skill? :laughing:
Some tips to say nothing, but act:


----------



## Ferin

Jetstream Aya said:


> Playing games is something you don't simply grow out of. It's simple taking a walk to your favourite store, you don't simply grow out of it.
> 
> 
> Because he always wanted me to be with him, it left me with little time to play or my friends I started bringing my cell phone along. He got envious of that too. I liked showed him funny things my friends posted and told me. It was a trust sharing of "you might meet these people". He didn't see it like that and that's sad.
> 
> 
> I hate when people do that. It's so annoying. If you're scared buy a dog to protect you.
> Can't she go to the party with you?
> 
> 
> You're welcome. No need to apologize, good things only come after the tempest.



I agree. It will always be a part of my history. Your ex sounds like he needed to control every situation and know everything you were doing as well. Trust is so important, if you trust someone, their friends' gender shouldn't matter. If you don't, then don't force them to change. I've never told her she couldn't go out and do anything on her own etc. yet I get attitude just for asking. She's not even scared is the thing, she just is anxious when I'm away with other people and I don't flirt, let alone ever cheat etc. I've been on the receiving end of it so I'd never do it to someone. It almost feels like she wants me to cold and not friendly to people so that she doesn't have to feel insecure. 


About the party - she couldn't come because it was employees only and right after work in our gym (I work at a RTC for kids, we have a school) we of course ended up fighting about something else earlier in the day but I went for a little bit until she started freaking out calling me. I told her I would talk to her when I got home but she can't handle the waiting period and was nonstop texting and calling. Apparently "I don't care about our relationship if I go to the party while we we had a disagreement". I ended up not being able to enjoy it much that I left anyway. 


I think this week will be my last in the tempest. I don't think I can take much more. I wish we didn't live together. It would make this much easier to end.


----------



## Ferin

Zuflex said:


> *shocked* "promised i wanted it" OMG WTF
> 
> "walking on eggshells around her" Nearest exit?
> 
> "I wish she could understand all of these things I feel" She can't, obviously
> 
> "I wrote her a 5 page letter explaining how I felt and she begged me not to break up with her." she begs for herself. The real question is, why don't you do it for yourself. Saying no is not your biggest skill? :laughing:
> Some tips to say nothing, but act:


Saying no is my absolute worst skill. If you ever have something you need fixed or an errand ran ask me and I will probably take care of it for you without hesitation. I guess its pretty obvious at this point that my relationship screams "RED FLAG". You're right that she is begging for herself. I feel like its all great for one day and she understands me but then she ends up being frustrated and aggressive the next day all over again. 

Thank you for this. Paul Simon is always beautiful. I haven't listened to this song in a long time, it makes me feel like I can be strong and get through it and start walking the road to recovery.


----------



## fairies

whiterwair said:


> This all depends on the people in the relationship, but some red flags for me personally, from my past relationships:
> 
> 1. He stops communicating for unknown reasons (becomes distant, absent, doesn't contact me when he's late to meet up with me, not wanting to talk through disagreements; general sudden lack of communication)
> 2. He has no job for extended periods of time, and is not trying to find a job, and is not devoting his time to something important that would leave little time for a job
> 3. When I pay for everything because he has no job - I don't mind this temporarily, or if he's in school and/or devoting his time to something worthwhile, but after months of it, no.
> 4. He's dependent on his mom, dad, or anyone else, for things that adults should be taking care of themselves (job, money, bills, living alone, etc.)
> 5. He's drunk a lot
> 6. He is not thoughtful/doesn't seem to care much about me - he doesn't ask how my day was, doesn't check on me after a disagreement or after I was feeling down for whatever reason
> 7. He's a bad listener and doesn't seem to put any thought into helping me through a problem I (or anyone else) might be having
> 8. He doesn't have a curiosity for life; no direction whatsoever, is not really interested in much
> 9. He's verbally abusive
> 
> Also, the more obvious ones, such as: he talks badly about others unwarranted, treats his family poorly, has cheated before, spends a lot of time with girl friends/exes, etc.


Omg this sounds EXACTLY like my ex. And I'm still healing from the wounds from that rocky three year relationship lol.


----------



## maxwellc

If she always claims to be busy on weekend/her days off, there a other guy.
If she won't go on long weekend trip right after you 2 hit it off, there must be a boyfriend.
If she claims all the new extravagant and pricey stuff she just got are somehow gifts form friends or money form parents etc, there must be a suger daddy in her life now, and your just young boyfriend she has on the side for fun.


----------



## Fredward

maxwellc said:


> If she always claims to be busy on weekend/her days off, there a other guy.
> If she won't go on long weekend trip right after you 2 hit it off, there must be a boyfriend.
> If she claims all the new extravagant and pricey stuff she just got are somehow gifts form friends or money form parents etc, there must be a suger daddy in her life now, and your just young boyfriend she has on the side for fun.



* *


----------



## perpetuallyreticent

thismustbetheplace said:


> Tells you, "If we ever get serious, I want to contact my ex from five years ago one last time, 'for closure.'"


_"...So, should I just ctrl+d you out of my life or will you escort yourself out?"_


----------



## Maidelane

-If they tell you at the first month: "if we broke up we want us to still be friends" . Means they lack commitment and probably they're thinking about breaking up already.

- If they say all they exes were crazy btch or dbags. 

- they admit they dont consider a relationship as it if they didn't have sex on it (so all the other things doesnt matter...) 

- They say a lot of good characteristic about themselves (Big ego)

- They presume about their sex abilities Hahaha

- Say a lot of promises that didn't try to make true.

Wow. Im a lucky person for not having him in my life :dance:


----------



## dragthewaters

perpetuallyreticent said:


> _"...So, should I just ctrl+d you out of my life or will you escort yourself out?"_


LOL I should have broken up with him but since it was my first relationship I had no idea what was considered "acceptable behavior" and he was an emotionally manipulative piece of shit who convinced me that I was being unreasonable for being upset over it (and the many other shitty things he did...like pathologically lying about EVERYTHING and then lying about the lies and so on...lie-ception?). Plus I had no self-esteem and thought nobody else would ever want to date me! What a waste of a year.


----------



## GreyJedi

Red flag if:
- She's had a whole lot of quickie relationships
- She has different fuck buddies per day on a given week
- Tells you about all the large dicks she've encountered
- Tells a lot of lies
- All about sex talk and no intimacy talk


----------



## zDuality

if you meet a woman that doesn't love her mother she is not worth a damn.

real men will understand.


----------



## zDuality

GreyJedi said:


> Red flag if:
> - She's had a whole lot of quickie relationships
> - She has different fuck buddies per day on a given week
> - Tells you about all the large dicks she've encountered
> - Tells a lot of lies
> - All about sex talk and no intimacy talk


in other words, if she knows how to ride the D good then she is definitely a thot? lol


----------



## Fredward

zDuality said:


> if you meet a woman that doesn't love her mother she is not worth a damn.
> 
> real men will understand.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Animal said:


> It is so hard to walk away while there is still hope. I am not strong enough to endure this confusion. For all the survival situations I've been in, the trauma I have endured, spending time on my death bed, being attacked on the street and taking charge, leading my band while singing through a whisper and managing a chronic illness by myself in a depraved overpriced city.. I swear.. I can conquer ANY challenge that life throws for me _except for this_. I can walk away when rejected and heal with dignity, but walking away when there is hope, I just...can't... do it. It's so counter intuitive, counter instinctual and heartbreaking. And people fuck with my hope and romanticism and endurance and kindness every last time. I just..can't. UGH.


I can imagine few things more heartbreaking than this. I would also add giving you mixed messages: leading you on and when you take the bait or question it; they turn it back on you and accused you of having their denied motives: Ie., they are extremely ambivalent about being in a relationship; so they project it on to you and unfairly put it on you, when all you were doing was trying to make sense of the conflicting messages they sent you.


! major one that should never be ignored: anyone who views themselves as take your pick: more enlightened, intelligent, evolved, more moral etc. than average and looks down on "lesser beings" for not being up to their high standards.



Animal said:


> - He claims he was a perfect angel in his past relationships but women aren't trustworthy (or worthy in general) and thus fucked him over.


Run, run screaming and get away as far and as fast as you can; also if he tells you that ALL - keyword - ALL - of his exes were either bipolar or had bpd and/or he clearly has over the top anger issues with an ex because eventually you will replace her as the gf from hell, if you're not careful.


----------



## diamond_mouth

- When he straight up says about himself ''I'm very high maintenance''
- When he harms/threatens to harm himself because of you
- Also, I need help deciding if this is a red flag or not - If he's 24 and never had a girlfriend (?)


----------



## Maidelane

diamond_mouth said:


> - Also, I need help deciding if this is a red flag or not - If he's 24 and never had a girlfriend (?)


I won't considered it as a red flag (just weird and sad) unless he says he's been in a lot of casual relationships by all that time.


----------



## Chesire Tower

diamond_mouth said:


> - When he harms/threatens to harm himself because of you


True story. I once met this guy on a blind date (NOT from PerC), who out of the blue, told me that he tried to off himself at his ex-girlfriend's mother's house. The he gallantly offered to show me that scar that went all the way around his neck. He was really put off by my obviously shocked reaction and he asked me why I looked so perturbed. What I was thinking in my head but didn't say out loud was; "I want to be your new girlfriend cuz the next time you try to kill yourself; I want to be sure you get it right".

:wink:

Needless to say, there was no second date.


----------



## kiwig0ld

she wants you take her to "the bad area of town."


----------



## KINGoftheAMAZONS

Animal said:


> - *Too positive.* (Barf. Gimme something REAL and human please.)
> *- Tells me to "stay positive."* (Once is too many. Twice, you're gone. I don't qualify positive vs. negative as "good vs. bad." To me the scale of goodness is honest vs. dishonest. "Stay positive" when I'm upset is dishonest. So this request, advice or demand means we are not compatible.)


Lol, You're speaking my language! I can't stand people like this. They're normally the type to have pre-rehearsed and generic advice for anyone that is going through a tough time. My life is falling apart, and idiots like this will say "Sure, you're suffering right now, but don't you know that God has already sent you a blessing that you just don't know about yet? So why be so negative?". Umm... maybe because I've been living through 4 years of hell without any kind of reprieve :kitteh:? 

And to be clear, it's not the part about "God" that makes me want to stab people who say this shit to me (though that doesn't help anything), but rather the fact that they have the audacity to try to dismiss my pain, fears, and anxieties by making it seem like it is completely unnecessary for me to feel the way that I do. 

To give an example, my mother's sister has lupus, and is now in need of a kidney. As she was telling my mom all of this, my mother told her "_Aww you'll be fine. You just have to trust in God. But you'll be okay_". This woman (my aunt) is in need of a fundamentally crucial organ of the body, and will be on dialysis until she receives it (*IF* she receives a fucking kidney at all). And my mother completely dismissed the gravity of her situation by saying some generic bullshit that basically boils down to "Stop being so dramatic. So what if you need a kidney? You'll be fine". My mom didn't grow up with this sister, so perhaps that explains her detached interaction (though she has recently said the same generic bullshit to me as well). 

Either way, I wanted to punch her fucking teeth in when she was being dismissive of her sister's condition (that could kill her in a year for all we know). I would never get close to any dumbass who couldn't at least try to understand where I was coming from, before trying to dismiss my problems with bullshit platitudes that are ambiguous enough to be applied to everyone, and yet, too broad to fit *ANYONE*.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution

Maidelane said:


> I won't considered it as a red flag (just weird and sad) unless he says he's been in a lot of casual relationships by all that time.


How rude. Some people don't have time, or a lot of confidence or around the opposite sex to have been in a relationship, sexual or otherwise by that age. How judgemental of you.


----------



## Maidelane

isingthebodyelectric said:


> How rude. Some people don't have time, or a lot of confidence or around the opposite sex to have been in a relationship, sexual or otherwise by that age. How judgemental of you.


I didn't mean being judgemental. I said it was weird and sad only because society (family, friends..) would pressure that person about having a relationship. And of course I don't agree with that behavior, but being in the shoes of a person that having 24yo haven't had ANY kind of relationship, I imagine it could be sad due to THAT burden. I mean, we could get sad in valentine's days if we don't have a partner! How silly of us. But yes, you're right, perhap that person could have another reasons, and I respect that.


----------



## femmefatale5

Tries to negatively alter your opinion about your friends
Somehow makes you feel you are non-committal when you try to meet up with friends
Treats you as if they don't trust you, when you have done nothing to break their trust
Tries to pick arguments with you when amongst your friends
You start to monitor your own behaviour when with friends and the SO, just in case you do something that could upset them - you always do upset them
You get anxious when a friend suggests meeting up, because you know your SO is going to make this difficult and likely to start an argument
Your SO doesn't have their own life or friends
Your partner gets jealous if someone else does something that makes you happy
Your partner gets jealous if someone else manages to cheer you up if you're upset
Your partner pressures you to get married - even when you express not being ready for that yet
Your partner hits things when you have angered them
Other people use the words 'controlling' when you describe your SO's behaviour to them
Your partner doesn't trust you around other guys - not because they think you would want another guy, but simply because another guy could want you
Your partner calls you whenever you're out (checking up on you ) - even worse if they try to argue with you to keep you on the phone
Your partner asks you what time you'll leave the social event, and asks you to call them when you do
Your partner, when going with you to a social event, requires that you both leave at a certain (early) time - no such rule exists when seeing your SO's friends
Your SO seems to try to disengage when socialising with your friends and be awkward, e.g. not drinking when going to a bar (and yet the SO always drinks when seeing their own friends, as well as when you and your SO are drinking just you two together) 
It takes over a year for your SO to like even just one of your friends


For example.


----------



## Laze

When they show signs of being dependent. I don't want to be your carer, your 'only thing in the world'—I want to be your equal.


----------



## Tora

When it feels like they don't really seem to care or know much about you but are instead just infatuated with the idea of having a girlfriend.


...Imagine a guy trying to turn an INTP girl into a typical girlfriend...


----------



## lunai

You chat online with someone from a foreign country who you've never met, they quickly start flirting with you and seem eager about marriage and immigration to your country. Bonus flag if they have a keen interest in how much money you make. Another bonus flag if they say all the men/women in their home country are terrible and they seeking a foreign lover. 

All of that should be kind of obvious though


----------



## Fern

lunai said:


> You chat online with someone from a foreign country who you've never met, they quickly start flirting with you and seem eager about marriage and immigration to your country. Bonus flag if they have a keen interest in how much money you make. Another bonus flag if they say all the men/women in their home country are terrible and they seeking a foreign lover.
> 
> All of that should be kind of obvious though


But none of that is from personal experience _at all _


----------



## Fern

Tora said:


> ...Imagine a guy trying to turn an INTP girl into a typical girlfriend...


Sounds like a subplot in a cheesy sit com


----------



## lunai

Fern said:


> But none of that is from personal experience _at all _


No, it's from the common tales of people marrying across seas and later find out they were just being used for citizenship.


----------



## Fern

lunai said:


> No, it's from the common tales of people marrying across seas and later find out they were just being used for citizenship.


Oh, it sounded like an experience I had so I suppose I was merely assuming it happens a lot. Which it does. As you said. Just not to you...

Oh, Green Card marriages ^_^ you will never cease


Funny story - my friend from Russia finally fell in love here in America... But he's from Argentina. So no Green Cards for either of them. Such is love.


----------



## Golden Rose

Fern said:


> Funny story - my friend from Russia finally fell in love here in America... But he's from Argentina. So no Green Cards for either of them. Such is love.


This sounds adorable, "it's you and I fighting for a Green Card".

I can vouch USA citizenship requirements are hell, even if you have family there


----------



## Brian1

This post. This post right here, made my day. As someone who has a disability, I like that you had that emotion. Having a disability is no fun. 



KINGoftheAMAZONS said:


> Lol, You're speaking my language! I can't stand people like this. They're normally the type to have pre-rehearsed and generic advice for anyone that is going through a tough time. My life is falling apart, and idiots like this will say "Sure, you're suffering right now, but don't you know that God has already sent you a blessing that you just don't know about yet? So why be so negative?". Umm... maybe because I've been living through 4 years of hell without any kind of reprieve :kitteh:?
> 
> And to be clear, it's not the part about "God" that makes me want to stab people who say this shit to me (though that doesn't help anything), but rather the fact that they have the audacity to try to dismiss my pain, fears, and anxieties by making it seem like it is completely unnecessary for me to feel the way that I do.
> 
> To give an example, my mother's sister has lupus, and is now in need of a kidney. As she was telling my mom all of this, my mother told her "_Aww you'll be fine. You just have to trust in God. But you'll be okay_". This woman (my aunt) is in need of a fundamentally crucial organ of the body, and will be on dialysis until she receives it (*IF* she receives a fucking kidney at all). And my mother completely dismissed the gravity of her situation by saying some generic bullshit that basically boils down to "Stop being so dramatic. So what if you need a kidney? You'll be fine". My mom didn't grow up with this sister, so perhaps that explains her detached interaction (though she has recently said the same generic bullshit to me as well).
> 
> Either way, I wanted to punch her fucking teeth in when she was being dismissive of her sister's condition (that could kill her in a year for all we know). I would never get close to any dumbass who couldn't at least try to understand where I was coming from, before trying to dismiss my problems with bullshit platitudes that are ambiguous enough to be applied to everyone, and yet, too broad to fit *ANYONE*.


----------



## Strayfire

Tora said:


> When it feels like they don't really seem to care or know much about you but are instead just infatuated with the idea of having a girlfriend.


Cheers. I have been so guilty of that with the majority of my crushes. 

"Hey you, yes you. Drop your personality, become a cardboard cutout and extension of my sexual desire and I'll love you. K?"

Something like that


----------



## femmefatale5

Laze said:


> When they show signs of being dependent. I don't want to be your carer, your 'only thing in the world'—I want to be your equal.


This. I think a romantic relationship should be one where each partner _enhances_ the other's life, not one in which each partner is the sole provider of happiness and satisfaction. With my ex, who displayed all of the traits mentioned in my post above, I had started to feel that being together due to our relationship dynamics was stunting both of our potential, or at least mine was being stunted in terms of being unable to associate with who I wanted to, take certain opportunities in relation to work/study, and so on. 

I think dependence is toxic. I want someone who is passionate, highly independent and at the very least _healthy_, i.e. someone I can share my passion, plans and ambitions with whilst also sharing their own passion for their own.


----------



## RichardHead

Tora said:


> When it feels like they don't really seem to care or know much about you but are instead just infatuated with the idea of having a girlfriend.
> 
> 
> *...Imagine a guy trying to turn an INTP girl into a typical girlfriend...*


You should thank him. If just for the effort.


----------



## Tora

RichardHead said:


> You should thank him. If just for the effort.


Hey! I resent that! Nah its true. But eh, more like wasted effort.


----------



## Sina

- the silent treatment (good fucking god..the silent fucking treatment...turn around, walk away, and don't look back). deal breaker.

- unwillingness to communicate when upset, instead choosing to make negative assumptions and withdrawing into ones shell; it shows clear disdain for the emotional well being of the person being ignored and invalidated when they haven't the slightest clue what they've done wrong. related to the above. red flag. if this is not corrected after the first mistake, then it's a deal breaker.

- unwillingness to commit to recovery from traumatic circumstances. yes, trauma is damaging in a million ways. people have a right to grieve and be angry. however, anyone who takes a fatalistic approach and believes they have been irreversibly damaged to the point they lose interest in seeking help and support at all...is not worth your time. deal breaker

-coming up with bullshit red herrings and excuses when you make perfectly reasonable requests. red flag and very likely to become a deal breaker

-making petty insensitive remarks about people's bodies. a guy once said he wished some woman walking by would stop overeating and get some exercise (she was average size, not that it matters much because even if she wasn't..i'd have been pretty irritated)...and i not only set his ass straight on the body shaming nonsense...i never saw him again.
such men will overtly or covertly body shame others in their lives, guaranteed. deal breaker.

-idealizing you and putting you on a pedestal. unrealistic expectations do not make for healthy relationships. deal breaker.

-prejudice. i refuse to date a bigoted loser. deal breaker.

-disrespecting my friends and loved ones is a deal breaker. starting shit with my loved ones and friends is where i draw a line that better never get crossed..


----------



## RichardHead

Tora said:


> Hey! I resent that! Nah its true. But eh, more like wasted effort.


You're not much like chick on your avatar are you?


----------



## Tora

RichardHead said:


> You're not much like the chick on your avatar are you?



Nope, I carry my rocket between my legs. Boom.


----------



## INTJQueen

Those are very well articulated and so true (says the one who just went through her third divorce).


----------



## Chesire Tower

Vajra said:


> - the silent treatment (good fucking god..the silent fucking treatment...turn around, walk away, and don't look back). deal breaker.
> 
> - unwillingness to communicate when upset, instead choosing to make negative assumptions and withdrawing into ones shell; it shows clear disdain for the emotional well being of the person being ignored and invalidated when they haven't the slightest clue what they've done wrong. related to the above. red flag. if this is not corrected after the first mistake, then it's a deal breaker.


I do not have time for either friends or lover who play stupid mind games like these. I'm sorry you went through all that. Also, I once had a bf who kept on judging me, constantly putting me down and making me feel like I could do no right. I told him about some minor accomplishment that I was pretty stoked about and his response to me was: "don't rest on your laurels".


----------



## Fern

Just... all of this:


It Took Me Two Years to Realize My Boyfriend Was Racist — Everyday Feminism


----------



## devoid

1. He shows up to the first three dates with a hangover, even on weekdays
2. All the bartenders in the area know him by name
3. He repeatedly says defensive things like, "I don't have a drinking problem" without being prompted
4. His response to the slightest frustration or sad thing is "I need a drink"
5. His friends are all heavy drinkers, and insist on going out drinking every time they meet up
6. He tries to get you to drink more with him, even to the point of getting you sick, and still think it's fun as you're throwing up
7. Every time you go out to a restaurant he has to have at least one beer
8. When you point out that he's having nasty side effects from drinking (like bleeding internally) he becomes furious and defensive
9. He blames you for "making him drink so much" after a fight
10. He would rather stay home alone in his room getting drunk than go out with you or have sex
11. One of his friends sneakily tells you that he cheated on an ex girlfriend while he was drunk
12. He makes the claim that "Things you do when drunk shouldn't count the same way, because you aren't in control."
13. He says, "I'm never going to stop drinking. It's an important part of my life."
14. He tries to quit once, lasts two weeks and then goes binge drinking
15. When you mention your concern about health risks, even unrelated to drinking, he says things like, "You're being invasive. Don't tell me how to live my life."

Yeah, I'm a fucking idiot, again. Maybe someday I'll learn how to avoid these pieces of shit and recognise the patterns early on. Never been with an alcoholic before him though. Sigh.


----------



## Sina

devoid said:


> 1. He shows up to the first three dates with a hangover, even on weekdays
> 2. All the bartenders in the area know him by name
> 3. He repeatedly says defensive things like, "I don't have a drinking problem" without being prompted
> 4. His response to the slightest frustration or sad thing is "I need a drink"
> 5. His friends are all heavy drinkers, and insist on going out drinking every time they meet up
> 6. He tries to get you to drink more with him, even to the point of getting you sick, and still think it's fun as you're throwing up
> 7. Every time you go out to a restaurant he has to have at least one beer
> 8. When you point out that he's having nasty side effects from drinking (like bleeding internally) he becomes furious and defensive
> 9. He blames you for "making him drink so much" after a fight
> 10. He would rather stay home alone in his room getting drunk than go out with you or have sex
> 11. One of his friends sneakily tells you that he cheated on an ex girlfriend while he was drunk
> 12. He makes the claim that "Things you do when drunk shouldn't count the same way, because you aren't in control."
> 13. He says, "I'm never going to stop drinking. It's an important part of my life."
> 14. He tries to quit once, lasts two weeks and then goes binge drinking
> 15. When you mention your concern about health risks, even unrelated to drinking, he says things like, "You're being invasive. Don't tell me how to live my life."
> 
> Yeah, I'm a fucking idiot, again. Maybe someday I'll learn how to avoid these pieces of shit and recognise the patterns early on. Never been with an alcoholic before him though. Sigh.


In short, don't date a fucking alcoholic or any kind of addict. 
What a mess.


----------



## Sygma

devoid said:


> 1. He shows up to the first three dates with a hangover, even on weekdays
> 2. All the bartenders in the area know him by name
> 3. He repeatedly says defensive things like, "I don't have a drinking problem" without being prompted
> 4. His response to the slightest frustration or sad thing is "I need a drink"
> 5. His friends are all heavy drinkers, and insist on going out drinking every time they meet up
> 6. He tries to get you to drink more with him, even to the point of getting you sick, and still think it's fun as you're throwing up
> 7. Every time you go out to a restaurant he has to have at least one beer
> 8. When you point out that he's having nasty side effects from drinking (like bleeding internally) he becomes furious and defensive
> 9. He blames you for "making him drink so much" after a fight
> 10. He would rather stay home alone in his room getting drunk than go out with you or have sex
> 11. One of his friends sneakily tells you that he cheated on an ex girlfriend while he was drunk
> 12. He makes the claim that "Things you do when drunk shouldn't count the same way, because you aren't in control."
> 13. He says, "I'm never going to stop drinking. It's an important part of my life."
> 14. He tries to quit once, lasts two weeks and then goes binge drinking
> 15. When you mention your concern about health risks, even unrelated to drinking, he says things like, "You're being invasive. Don't tell me how to live my life."
> 
> Yeah, I'm a fucking idiot, again. Maybe someday I'll learn how to avoid these pieces of shit and recognise the patterns early on. Never been with an alcoholic before him though. Sigh.


*shrugs*


----------



## devoid

Sygma said:


> *shrugs*


So I take it you're a drinker.


----------



## Sygma

devoid said:


> So I take it you're a drinker.


yeah two beers every 3 months or so ! I was just wonderin if you were talkin about that "normal" man ya know ?


----------



## devoid

Sygma said:


> yeah two beers every 3 months or so ! I was just wonderin if you were talkin about that "normal" man ya know ?


Umm... maybe? Not 100% sure what you're talking about but I think so.

He hid it pretty well at first, although I know I ignored the signs too. At first he made it seem like he only drank socially, then it was "I just have a small drink to relax after work." When he first said, "I think I have a problem," I wasn't even sure if I believed him since I hadn't seen him drink that much up until that point. I didn't realise he'd been hiding a lot of it from me by stopping by the bar after work or on lunch breaks, and drinking heavily while I was away or at work (he has a high tolerance and doesn't show obvious signs of being drunk). A couple weeks after he told me he was going to quit, I showed up unannounced and walked in on him with a guy friend drinking whiskey together. I constantly wonder if he was planning on telling me or hiding it. But once we'd been together for a few months he finally gave up the charade and just started drinking out the bottle all night while I was right there. I had my own "stash" of scotch which I very rarely would sip on occasion, and he always said how much he hated the stuff I had and wouldn't drink it. Then I caught him downing more than half of the bottle I had without even asking. This was mostly in the last week or two leading up to me leaving.


----------



## Sygma

devoid said:


> Umm... maybe? Not 100% sure what you're talking about but I think so.


Well I was rememberin you talkin about beein a bit disoriented because the current dude you were datin was normal and didn't seem to have issues, so I was wonderin if it was the same guy.

Other than that well yeah obviously you did a good move here


----------



## devoid

Sygma said:


> Well I was rememberin you talkin about beein a bit disoriented because the current dude you were datin was normal and didn't seem to have issues, so I was wonderin if it was the same guy.
> 
> Other than that well yeah obviously you did a good move here


Hmm, might have been. I don't know. I get around. He certainly has a lot of issues, but he hides them all under this damn mask because he wants to be "normal." That's why he drinks (and used to abuse other drugs like weed, which he was actually hospitalised for). He wants to stop being an autistic genius and feel like he fits in. I guess he'd rather die slowly to achieve depressed normalcy than wake up and learn how to live his life.


----------



## Sygma

devoid said:


> Hmm, might have been. I don't know. I get around. He certainly has a lot of issues, but he hides them all under this damn mask because he wants to be "normal." That's why he drinks (and used to abuse other drugs like weed, which he was actually hospitalised for). He wants to stop being an autistic genius and feel like he fits in. I guess he'd rather die slowly to achieve depressed normalcy than wake up and learn how to live his life.


Yeah nothing to see here. Sad for the guy tho :/


----------



## devoid

Sygma said:


> Yeah nothing to see here. Sad for the guy tho :/


Me too. I wish there were more I could do, but I'm afraid people like him rarely change. He's already lost almost everything because of drugs and it didn't seem to stop him. He went to a top law school, and got an amazing score on the LSAT, but he was rejected from the bar because he was hospitalised twice for psychosis due to drug abuse (once again, he made it sound like it was just once and it was his first time trying weed, but I later found out it was twice that he was hospitalised and that he used to regularly do weed and acid). You would think that that would have been a wake-up call, and I guess he did stop smoking weed, but that might be more due to the fact that he got a government job. He blames the psychologists for misdiagnosing him, rather than blaming himself for abusing drugs.

I've met people who were addicts, and I've met people who recovered, and the difference is ALWAYS in their attitude. If someone has a strong will and an ability to take responsibility for their actions, they have a chance at recovering. My ex doesn't have the strongest willpower and can be extremely irresponsible, especially when it comes to his own lifestyle. I honestly don't think he'll ever get better. I think he's always going to look for something to numb himself with, whether it's weed or alcohol or handfuls of pills (Yes, sometimes at work he literally takes 6-8 aspirin, with the excuse of "I have a bad knee.") People like that are nothing but trouble. If I try to help him he's only going to drag me down into it again.


----------



## Playful Proxy

When you hide your thoughts and feelings from the other person because you want to 'protect them'. If they can't handle who you are as a person, you shouldn't be with them.


----------



## Fern

Don't mind me. Just sharing some links.


If He's Doing These 6 Things, You're Being Silently Abused | YourTango


20 Telling Signs Someone Is In An Abusive Relationship


Unreality Check: Cognitive Dissonance in Narcissistic Abuse



Love yourselves, ladies and gents <3


----------



## Vast Silence

Here's a spinner:

People that use the term "relationship red flag". That term in and of itself tells me the person has been in way too many relationships and can't keep one afloat to save their lives. If you have experience in failed relationships enough to use that term I'm not interested in another half-ass attempt at commitment with you.


----------



## EccentricSiren

Katfeatherfoot said:


> Here's a spinner:
> 
> People that use the term "relationship red flag". That term in and of itself tells me the person has been in way too many relationships and can't keep one afloat to save their lives. If you have experience in failed relationships enough to use that term I'm not interested in another half-ass attempt at commitment with you.


Going to have to disagree with you there. Maybe the person has had a few bad relationships. Maybe in the past, they had a lot of relationships that didn't work out and now they've grown up enough to understand what went wrong. Maybe they've witnessed a lot of bad situations with people close to them.


----------



## Fluctuate

It probably just depends on how many failed relationships they've had, right? What kind of people do they pursue/ attract?

I don't really have a list; these are just some thoughts. Feedback appreciated, as usual:

Doesn't text you back for days
Withdraws for a reason that is never communicated
Seems afraid of commitment, but not for a specific reason
Only takes you out on dinner dates
Disrespects their parents


----------



## Vast Silence

Elizabeth Bennet said:


> It probably just depends on how many failed relationships they've had, right? What kind of people do they pursue/ attract?
> 
> I don't really have a list; these are just some thoughts. Feedback appreciated, as usual:
> 
> Doesn't text you back for days
> Withdraws for a reason that is never communicated
> Seems afraid of commitment, but not for a specific reason
> Only takes you out on dinner dates
> Disrespects their parents


All very good indicators of a person's character overall. I wouldn't want to even know someone like that let a lone date them! 

I may have been rash. See I take my intuition for granted and I always have. 
Am I the only person that can see with a single look what a person is, who they are, how they behave, and all of their insecurities... and as a result decide whether they are worth knowing or not with just that single look? :\


----------



## Fluctuate

Katfeatherfoot said:


> All very good indicators of a person's character overall. I wouldn't want to even know someone like that let a lone date them!
> 
> I may have been rash. See I take my intuition for granted and I always have.
> Am I the only person that can see with a single look what a person is, who they are, how they behave, and all of their insecurities... and as a result decide whether they are worth knowing or not with just that single look? :\


Nope! Although not every INFx can basically read minds... 

Do you mind if I ask, how many people do you meet that you think are worth knowing versus not?


----------



## Fumetsu

Katfeatherfoot said:


> Here's a spinner:
> 
> People that use the term "relationship red flag". That term in and of itself tells me the person has been in way too many relationships and can't keep one afloat to save their lives. If you have experience in failed relationships enough to use that term I'm not interested in another half-ass attempt at commitment with you.


I have been in one. The same one I am in right now and have been for the past four years.

Because when I see a "Red flag" I know that it means "Stay away" not "Keep going until you're in too deep and everything is on fire."


----------



## Vast Silence

Elizabeth Bennet said:


> Nope! Although not every INFx can basically read minds...
> 
> Do you mind if I ask, how many people do you meet that you think are worth knowing versus not?


I've gone through my life to this day, I'm halfway through my 26th year, and I have two friends. One is my ex-girlfriend and the other is my college buddy from engineering. Funny enough, I push people away, harder the closer they get. Because I know deep down just like how my girlfriend broke up with me, everyone always leaves. 

The reason I still talk to her and my college buddy almost daily is that I think they're worth knowing. They're interesting people. I tend to like people that know they're smart, smarter than everyone around them, but can still be nice to others. 

To answer your question, those two are the only two I've ever really gotten close to and let in and yet I still think about shutting them out and running away everyday. 

So the answer is two people out of everyone else I've met outside of nuclear family.



Fumetsu said:


> I have been in one. The same one I am in right now and have been for the past four years.
> 
> Because when I see a "Red flag" I know that it means "Stay away" not "Keep going until you're in too deep and everything is on fire."


I can respect that. Did you just happen to get lucky and find someone great right off the bat or did you wait and not bother with anything less than amazing? Out of curiosity. Because I'm still waiting...


----------



## Sparkling

Very interesting article [excerpts below]
*Understanding Code Red and Amber behaviour in Relationships*



> The chief problem that I come across time and again with people faced with code red behaviour is that we don’t do what we’re supposed to – opt out.
> 
> Addicted to something (FOCR) – If you meet someone and they are addicted to something (gambling, sex, alcohol, drugs, etc) and not aware of it and doing something about it, this will impact on your life greatly if you continue.
> 
> Married Or Attached (FOCR) - Anybody trying to pursue you while with someone else is shady.
> 
> Anger and aggression (FOCR) - have trouble keeping their anger in check.
> 
> They play victim (FOCR) – Be careful of anybody that refuses to take any responsibility for their life and blames it on others – Be extra careful of people who when they experience a problem, don’t see their part in it. You will eventually become one of those ‘others’.
> 
> Not over the ex – (FOCR)
> 
> Controlling
> 
> Problems with past/childhood – Pasts can be overcome (I have) but if there are issues from their past that impact on their ability to healthily engage, it’s code amber if they’re prepared to go to and stick to therapy, and code red if they’re not prepared to, deny, or play it down, or it’s coupled with other code red and code amber behaviour.
> 
> Dodgy attitude towards sex
> 
> Irresponsible – irresponsible with life in general
> 
> Sleeping With Others
> 
> Nasty and spiteful – Mean spirited people don’t stop being so in a relationship and may attack your self esteem by latching on to what they think are flaws in you.
> 
> Emotionally Unavailable
> 
> [...]


----------



## Jabbytoe69

Red flags c'mon life's a rollercoaster enjoy all the crazy unexpected laughs you can yo


----------



## Meret

Oh my, oh my, read through a lot of this thread and now I've got so many red flags on me people at least can't flag me for "doesn't keep herself covered"... 

My personal red flags would be:
-dishonesty
-disrespect (it was mentioned here that you can learn a lot about a person by the way they treat a waiter - very true.)
-lack of humour
-lack of generosity and mercy


----------



## Lilsnowy

One early red flag is over-the-top compliments for doing average unspectacular things. 

You tell your date that you're painting a room in your house or cleaning out your office (or any other basic task) and he exclaims, "Wow! You're AMAZING!" 

A vulnerable woman might think, _*Wow! He thinks I'm amazing! I've always wanted a man who thinks I'm amazing and artistic! And he tells me! He is so perfect!* _ 

A less vulnerable woman might think, _*He thinks that's amazing? That's weird. I wonder why he said that? *_ 

Over-the-top compliments from someone you hardly know are a tactic used to disarm you.


----------



## Debatelizard

They disappear for 7 straight days. Not that it ever happened to me....


----------



## Debatelizard

They just "love liver!"

Run. Just run.


----------



## Lilsnowy

If he tells his exes are all crazy or won't leave him alone. 
Too much drama. Big red flag.


----------



## Parrot

Gaslighting is a fun one that I do. Basically, I am damn near infallible so your emotional objections are clearly your fault.


----------



## MisterPerfect

screamofconscious said:


> My red flags for any kind of relationship are in
> 
> Body language
> tone of voice
> Uncanny circumstances that have brought us together (I don't believe in coincidence and I've had a few creeps set up situations to try and back me into a corner never again!)
> Contradictory statements e.g. "I know you're married, I just want to be your friend! Give me a chance to get to know you (with your fine ass)"


I have to agree with that, if there is an apparent coincidence it was probobly a set up. I do that crap all the time just because I not sure how to just talk to people. So I have to think of an excuse XD You are right to be suspicious.


----------



## screamofconscious

MisterPerfect said:


> I have to agree with that, if there is an apparent coincidence it was probobly a set up. I do that crap all the time just because I not sure how to just talk to people. So I have to think of an excuse XD You are right to be suspicious.



Well, coming up with an excuse is quite a bit different than scoping out some girl at your brothers place and watching closely enough to figure out where she lives and suddenly becomes best friends with her roomate. And then she can't get away from him. At least, that's the situation I had in mind when I wrote that post back in 2009. Funny the things we remember.

Anyway, if you're not out carrying on schemes like that, I'm sure you're fine.


----------



## Metalize

I love your username and picture.


----------



## screamofconscious

Metasentient said:


> I love your username and picture.


If you're talking to me, thanks.


----------



## Tad Cooper

Does it count as a red flag if they dont seem to care much and they dont really talk, refuse to talk about themselves etc?


----------



## Chicken Nugget

tine said:


> Does it count as a red flag if they dont seem to care much and they dont really talk, refuse to talk about themselves etc?


That could just be someone who's socially awkward.


----------



## Enxu

When they have dozens of personas and switch in between them in different settings right in front of you. Ie. its so confusing and you can't figure out which persona is really him.


----------



## Enxu

Katfeatherfoot said:


> Here's a spinner:
> 
> People that use the term "relationship red flag". That term in and of itself tells me the person has been in way too many relationships and can't keep one afloat to save their lives. If you have experience in failed relationships enough to use that term I'm not interested in another half-ass attempt at commitment with you.


Not true. I do watch out for red flags but I've never actually dated anyone officially. Since I value relationships in general, I think it is not strange to be looking out for red flags so as to not get into relationship that will end badly.


----------



## Vast Silence

Enxu said:


> Not true. I do watch out for red flags but I've never actually dated anyone officially. Since I value relationships in general, I think it is not strange to be looking out for red flags so as to not get into relationship that will end badly.


It may be that we understand the term differently.

To me the term "red-flag" gives the impression that the person giving off said "red-flag" has done something "wrong" and is therefore being judged as less than adequate.

People that use that term when talking about their relationships come off as shoppers in a supermarket picking through bad fruit. "Oh this one is bruised, nope, this one has a funny color, eww this one has a little mold."

It's a very simplistic way of describing something that isn't simple at all. 
Then again this is coming from someone that is so introverted I filter out people that are worth talking to, let alone getting to know, let alone dating. 

So... if I wanted to list my "red-flags" you'd all probably pounce on me screaming "blasphemy!"

Here I'll post some of my people-filters:
-Taller than me (yes I'm not interested in knowing anyone taller than me)
-Chubby people (no im not interested in knowing people that have flab)
-Fake-smilers and fake-laughers 
-Incessant small-talkers
-Social people
-People that drink alcohol often
-Snobs of any sort
-Stubborn people of less intelligence (they're frustrating and impossible to talk to without patronizing)
-People that are aggressively flirty with everyone they meet
-People that "swoon" when good looking individuals walk by
-People that show no interest in me
-Girls with less than shoulder length hair
-Guys full of themselves
-People that talk loudly
-Drama Queens
-People that talk shit behind everyone's back

So... yeah technically these are all "red-flags" ... but I notice these things LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I'm in a relationship with the person...

In conclusion, my point is if the person uses the term "red-flags" about their relationships then they are getting into relationships way too fast way too often and I find that behavior unattractive and irresponsible.

Although according to some, finding the right person is just a numbers game and all you have to do is hit on/date/fuck enough people till you find the right one and the more people you hit on/date/fuck then the more chances you have of coming across your ideal partner. 

I still stand by my statement that a person using the term "red-flags" in reference to their relationships is a person I would definitely NOT want to even speak to, let alone get to know. They'll probably be judging every word coming out of my mouth, running it through their friends, and dissecting it for "red-flags".

No thank you.


----------



## Vast Silence

That probably came off as ranty... yeah it was a rant...
Sigh...

I just don't like that word >_>'


----------



## Enxu

Katfeatherfoot said:


> It may be that we understand the term differently.
> 
> To me the term "red-flag" gives the impression that the person giving off said "red-flag" has done something "wrong" and is therefore being judged as less than adequate.
> 
> People that use that term when talking about their relationships come off as shoppers in a supermarket picking through bad fruit. "Oh this one is bruised, nope, this one has a funny color, eww this one has a little mold."


Haha, fair point. It depends on why you look for red-flags though. For me at least, its to protect myself from potentially abusive relationships, nothing more. Having been through a traumatic childhood, I know the damage that can be done from someone intimate who doesn't treat you right. Sometimes their issues can run deep and you won't be able to help them unless they really make an effort to work on themselves. Other times, those issues never go away, and it can have an impact on your well-being too if you decide to stay with them. 



Katfeatherfoot said:


> In conclusion, my point is if the person uses the term "red-flags" about their relationships then they are getting into relationships way too fast way too often and I find that behavior unattractive and irresponsible.


I thought red flags are usually used _before_ getting into a relationship?  If anything, I am very cautious about getting into one. The reason I haven't even dated officially was because I take time to know a person before deciding whether to date them. That is when I look for red flags that tell me whether the person is compatible or will be able to form a healthy relationship with me. 



Katfeatherfoot said:


> I still stand by my statement that a person using the term "red-flags" in reference to their relationships is a person I would definitely NOT want to even speak to, let alone get to know. They'll probably be judging every word coming out of my mouth, running it through their friends, and dissecting it for "red-flags".


Thats more of a generalisation. I don't use red flags the way you've described here, no.


----------



## Vast Silence

Enxu said:


> Haha, fair point. It depends on why you look for red-flags though. For me at least, its to protect myself from potentially abusive relationships, nothing more. Having been through a traumatic childhood, I know the damage that can be done from someone intimate who doesn't treat you right. Sometimes their issues can run deep and you won't be able to help them unless they really make an effort to work on themselves. Other times, those issues never go away, and it can have an impact on your well-being too if you decide to stay with them.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought red flags are usually used _before_ getting into a relationship?  If anything, I am very cautious about getting into one. The reason I haven't even dated officially was because I take time to know a person before deciding whether to date them. That is when I look for red flags that tell me whether the person is compatible or will be able to form a healthy relationship with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats more of a generalisation. I don't use red flags the way you've described here, no.


Aha, see I knew we were thinking of the term in different ways!

I think of it as evaluation once a relationship has started. As in, oh I started dating this person, they are my significant other, and I'm nitpicking their behavior.

I don't really do that once I'm in a relationship because I've already decided I like the person.

Ya I do the same thing you do, pre-filter people. Keeps me safe, and socially isolated... heh.

We're on the same page now thanks for the clarification, carry on~ o/


----------



## bigstupidgrin

"If you love me, you'll do ____"


----------



## screamofconscious

bigstupidgrin said:


> "If you love me, you'll do ____"


LOL, that line is so sophmoric, I can only congratulate you on staying away from skilled manipulators.


----------



## bigstupidgrin

screamofconscious said:


> LOL, that line is so sophmoric, I can only congratulate you on staying away from skilled manipulators.


I learned only through terrible repetition and a separation that was only partially of my own volition. If I had a time machine I'd slap 2009 me in the face for that.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Katfeatherfoot said:


> It may be that we understand the term differently.
> 
> To me the term "red-flag" gives the impression that the person giving off said "red-flag" has done something "wrong" and is therefore being judged as less than adequate.
> 
> People that use that term when talking about their relationships come off as shoppers in a supermarket picking through bad fruit. "Oh this one is bruised, nope, this one has a funny color, eww this one has a little mold."
> 
> It's a very simplistic way of describing something that isn't simple at all.
> Then again this is coming from someone that is so introverted I filter out people that are worth talking to, let alone getting to know, let alone dating.
> 
> So... if I wanted to list my "red-flags" you'd all probably pounce on me screaming "blasphemy!"
> 
> Here I'll post some of my people-filters:
> -Taller than me (yes I'm not interested in knowing anyone taller than me)
> -Chubby people (no im not interested in knowing people that have flab)
> -Fake-smilers and fake-laughers
> -Incessant small-talkers
> -Social people
> -People that drink alcohol often
> -Snobs of any sort
> -Stubborn people of less intelligence (they're frustrating and impossible to talk to without patronizing)
> -People that are aggressively flirty with everyone they meet
> -People that "swoon" when good looking individuals walk by
> -People that show no interest in me
> -Girls with less than shoulder length hair
> -Guys full of themselves
> -People that talk loudly
> -Drama Queens
> -People that talk shit behind everyone's back
> 
> So... yeah technically these are all "red-flags" ... but I notice these things LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I'm in a relationship with the person...
> 
> In conclusion, my point is if the person uses the term "red-flags" about their relationships then they are getting into relationships way too fast way too often and I find that behavior unattractive and irresponsible.
> 
> Although according to some, finding the right person is just a numbers game and all you have to do is hit on/date/fuck enough people till you find the right one and the more people you hit on/date/fuck then the more chances you have of coming across your ideal partner.
> 
> I still stand by my statement that a person using the term "red-flags" in reference to their relationships is a person I would definitely NOT want to even speak to, let alone get to know. They'll probably be judging every word coming out of my mouth, running it through their friends, and dissecting it for "red-flags".
> 
> No thank you.


Red flags are warnings that something isn't right but we tend to ignore them. The person may have been doing everything right. He may have been over-the-top with his compliments, generosity and helpfulness, but then you notice that he talked to the server in the restaurant with a disdainful, arrogant tone. Or maybe he says something like, "I don't think he knows who I am." Or another day while the two of you are driving to a romantic somewhere, he tailgates another driver and mutters how "F---ing women are lousy drivers." But not _you_. He treats you like a queen. You think, _*He must be really stressed to talk like that, because he treats women so well.*_ Later on he will be yelling at you the same way. 

Katfeatherfoot, you made a good point that it's better to learn these things before you actually go out with someone but an abuser can take weeks to show his true colors. He will maintain a very positive _public_ image but is totally different in an intimate relationship. His true self will eventually "leak out," and only to you. It knocks you off balance and that gives him a feeling of power. It's sick but it happens every day.

If a friend told you that her date said something or did something that made her feel uneasy, you would want her to proceed with caution, wouldn't you? Our feelings should stop us in our tracks, but we usually ignore them in the throes of sexual chemistry.

"I'm not racist, but..." 
"I know _you're_ not like this but a lot of women are..." 
"I can't believe how much I can tell you!" (First date, first hour, when he has shared almost nothing.)
First date: "You have a daughter! I would love to meet her! We could spend the day together. I love kids. She could probably use a good male role model." (Over-exuberance is a red flag. You find out later that his kids hardly see him or even worse, he hates kids.)
"I'm one of the good guys."


----------



## Vast Silence

@Lilsnowy

mmmm yeah its totally perception here... I'm taking mine for granted...

This may sound a bit arrogant but I've only ever been wrong about a person once and he is now my best friend.
99% of the time I can smell that shit a mile away before the person even speaks.
But then again I listen to my gut... most people try to ignore it and "logic" their way into getting suckered.

Although...some people, men and women alike, are excellent manipulators ... I can always tell tho


----------



## Morpheus83

Katfeatherfoot said:


> It may be that we understand the term differently.
> 
> To me the term "red-flag" gives the impression that the person giving off said "red-flag" has done something "wrong" and is therefore being judged as less than adequate.
> 
> People that use that term when talking about their relationships come off as shoppers in a supermarket picking through bad fruit. "Oh this one is bruised, nope, this one has a funny color, eww this one has a little mold."
> 
> It's a very simplistic way of describing something that isn't simple at all.
> Then again this is coming from someone that is so introverted I filter out people that are worth talking to, let alone getting to know, let alone dating.
> 
> So... if I wanted to list my "red-flags" you'd all probably pounce on me screaming "blasphemy!"
> 
> Here I'll post some of my people-filters:
> -Taller than me (yes I'm not interested in knowing anyone taller than me)
> -Chubby people (no im not interested in knowing people that have flab)
> -Fake-smilers and fake-laughers
> -Incessant small-talkers
> -Social people
> -People that drink alcohol often
> -Snobs of any sort
> -Stubborn people of less intelligence (they're frustrating and impossible to talk to without patronizing)
> -People that are aggressively flirty with everyone they meet
> -People that "swoon" when good looking individuals walk by
> -People that show no interest in me
> -Girls with less than shoulder length hair
> -Guys full of themselves
> -People that talk loudly
> -Drama Queens
> -People that talk shit behind everyone's back
> 
> So... yeah technically these are all "red-flags" ... but I notice these things LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I'm in a relationship with the person...
> 
> In conclusion, my point is if the person uses the term "red-flags" about their relationships then they are getting into relationships way too fast way too often and I find that behavior unattractive and irresponsible.
> 
> Although according to some, finding the right person is just a numbers game and all you have to do is hit on/date/fuck enough people till you find the right one and the more people you hit on/date/fuck then the more chances you have of coming across your ideal partner.
> 
> I still stand by my statement that a person using the term "red-flags" in reference to their relationships is a person I would definitely NOT want to even speak to, let alone get to know. They'll probably be judging every word coming out of my mouth, running it through their friends, and dissecting it for "red-flags".
> 
> No thank you.


Some people probably have a very low threshold for 'discomfort'--and they might even have an extremely broad definition of 'abuse'. Apparently, anybody who has a different opinion, worldview, 'weird' trait, etc... is a 'threat'--so heaven forbid if a prospective partner isn't a perfect clone of oneself or the embodiment of Prince/Princess Charming who compensates for everything lacking in the person's life while doubling as a social trophy f  I suspect some 'impatient' people try to couch their petty prejudices as 'red flags' because it's more socially acceptable to frame things in terms of 'safety' and 'vulnerability'  "OMG--the person has a crooked nose, so it means that s/he is potentially corrupt and might emotionally abuse me! RED FLAG!" (I often see this kind of weird inference)

This thread is interesting to read, though  And I can make up several things off the top of my head. But people can believe whatever they want about 'red flags' because I need the amusement


----------



## Lilsnowy

Katfeatherfoot said:


> @Lilsnowy
> 
> mmmm yeah its totally perception here... I'm taking mine for granted...
> 
> This may sound a bit arrogant but I've only ever been wrong about a person once and he is now my best friend.
> 99% of the time I can smell that shit a mile away before the person even speaks.
> But then again I listen to my gut... most people try to ignore it and "logic" their way into getting suckered.
> 
> Although...some people, men and women alike, are excellent manipulators ... I can always tell tho


It sounds like you're comfortable making healthy judgments. That is difficult for a lot of people and they do get suckered, as you said. They see that something is off but they're getting their desires or expectations fulfilled so they hate to make a judgment. that could take this person away. I think abusers look for that vulnerability; They can identify an empathic or needy person in a few short sentences, and play to that.

As an aside, did you know that getting manipulated back into a relationship is called, "getting hoovered?" Getting sucked back in after breaking it off is a common dynamic in problematic or abusive relationships. Better to spot trouble early on.


----------



## Vast Silence

Lilsnowy said:


> As an aside, did you know that getting manipulated back into a relationship is called, "getting hoovered?" Getting sucked back in after breaking it off is a common dynamic in problematic or abusive relationships. Better to spot trouble early on.


Thats hilarious xD


----------



## Lilsnowy

Katfeatherfoot said:


> Thats hilarious xD


Hilarious unless it's you getting hoovered!


----------



## g_w

Elizabeth Bennet said:


> It probably just depends on how many failed relationships they've had, right? What kind of people do they pursue/ attract?
> 
> I don't really have a list; these are just some thoughts. Feedback appreciated, as usual:
> 
> Doesn't text you back for days
> Withdraws for a reason that is never communicated
> Seems afraid of commitment, but not for a specific reason
> Only takes you out on dinner dates
> Disrespects their parents


Huh. You must have dated an INxx...:laughing:


----------



## piano

never trust a man who's good at poker

never trust a woman who wears visibly uncomfortable heels without complaint


----------



## Felipe

carpe omnia said:


> never trust a man who's good at poker


why not?


----------



## Metalize

Higher chance of being a skilled manipulator/liar.


----------



## Sporadic Aura

So I guess a cross-dresser who wears high heals at the poker table would be a disaster to date.


----------



## Meret

Only if he/she doesn't trip and fall. They'd be borderline OK if they can't walk in those heels.


----------



## Sporadic Aura

Meret said:


> Only if he/she doesn't trip and fall. They'd be borderline OK if they can't walk in those heels.


Or if they lose all their money within the first 10 minutes.


----------



## koalaroo

Sporadic Aura said:


> So I guess a cross-dresser who wears high heals at the poker table would be a disaster to date.


For some reason, this makes me think of Lady Gaga's "Poker Face".


----------



## MisterPerfect

Lilsnowy said:


> I agree with you, *Jack Rabid.* The ones you mention are indicative of controlling or or potentially abusive behaviours. I think you should listen to your body, what it's telling you when you feel uneasy or are in disbelief about what you just heard.
> 
> Others I would add are:
> Being offered friendly suggestions to how you might look better.
> Blames others for problems. "People are idiots."
> Seems to think everyone's jealous of him.
> Uses racial slurs or derogative comments about others of your gender.
> Goes from charming to monster in about three seconds.
> Gets upset when you spend time with family
> Seems happy when you're down.
> Seems down when you're happy or feeling accomplished
> Puts down your family.
> Doesn't want to meet your friends. Wishes you didn't spend so much time with them
> You start to feel uneasy expressing your opinion to this person
> Yuo start practicing in your head how you're going to say something to avoid his or her anger.


Telling someone how they can look prettier could be mistaken as an insult to their appearance. I could totally see why you are trying to help but its very obvious how this can be taken the wrong way. 

Saying people are idiots is not blaming others for your own problems. It might just be the fact you think people are idiots. Which might if you have to classify it a sign of cynicism. I guess you never seen these teen fads and you would say that these are smart to do. Explain why you think the following are smart. 20 Insanely Dangerous Teen Party Fads That Are Happening Right Now Saying there is no idiots in the world is ignoring the world as it really is. 

Everything else you are saying is pretty spot on though.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Sporadic Aura said:


> So I guess a cross-dresser who wears high heals at the poker table would be a disaster to date.


Is it a male to Female or female to Male Crosser? That sounds really interesting


----------



## piano

did someone say borderline?


----------



## MisterPerfect

Katfeatherfoot said:


> @Lilsnowy
> 
> mmmm yeah its totally perception here... I'm taking mine for granted...
> 
> This may sound a bit arrogant but I've only ever been wrong about a person once and he is now my best friend.
> 99% of the time I can smell that shit a mile away before the person even speaks.
> But then again I listen to my gut... most people try to ignore it and "logic" their way into getting suckered.
> 
> Although...some people, men and women alike, are excellent manipulators ... I can always tell tho


Yeah, but anytime someone says this they label the person arrogant or negative since everything is rainbows and butterflys all the time. Most people cant help but give themselves away but a lot of people simply arnt observant enough to see the tiny little signals that are being given off.


----------



## Lilsnowy

MisterPerfect said:


> Telling someone how they can look prettier could be mistaken as an insult to their appearance. I could totally see why you are trying to help but its very obvious how this can be taken the wrong way.
> 
> Saying people are idiots is not blaming others for your own problems. It might just be the fact you think people are idiots. Which might if you have to classify it a sign of cynicism. I guess you never seen these teen fads and you would say that these are smart to do. Explain why you think the following are smart. 20 Insanely Dangerous Teen Party Fads That Are Happening Right Now Saying there is no idiots in the world is ignoring the world as it really is.
> 
> Everything else you are saying is pretty spot on though.


Yes, it will be taken as an insult when someone tells you how you "might look better." This kind of subtle put down is common in abusive relationships and usually escalates to overt put downs the longer the relationship lasts. That's why it's a red flag if you see it early. 

As far as calling people idiots, it may reveal a general dislike of others, a judgmental attitude or arrogance, all of which indicate character issues and the potential for abuse. I'm not talking about the foolishness of teens.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Lilsnowy said:


> Yes, it will be taken as an insult when someone tells you how you "might look better." This kind of subtle put down is common in abusive relationships and usually escalates to overt put downs the longer the relationship lasts. That's why it's a red flag if you see it early.
> 
> As far as calling people idiots, it may reveal a general dislike of others, a judgmental attitude or arrogance, all of which indicate character issues and the potential for abuse. I'm not talking about the foolishness of teens.


Or they are just cynical or more realistic than you are. Not everyone is going to assume everything is sunshine and rainbows all the time.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Red Flag 

People who assume if you are a virgin after 18 you are probobly a pedophile 

Since you know that logic makes so much sense


----------



## Lilsnowy

MisterPerfect said:


> Or they are just cynical or more realistic than you are. Not everyone is going to assume everything is sunshine and rainbows all the time.


We're talking about potential red flags here.


----------



## Scarlet.Black

MisterPerfect said:


> Or they are just cynical or more realistic than you are. Not everyone is going to assume everything is sunshine and rainbows all the time.


Telling people that people are stupid is called horrible social skills. That's the red flag here.

It sounds that because that person has no social intelligence he is constantly leaning on the only weak conclusion she or he can understand. This is a red flag because you can figure out that she or he has no idea how to handle other people but is still hanging on to his or her only explanation. People who likes to think they are really smart (usually Ti or even Te dom ) don't understand their own incapability what comes to understanding people. Just because they don't know how to read people they think that there is nothing to read. That's foolishness. It is smart to understand your own limits.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Scarlet.Black said:


> Telling people that people are stupid is called horrible social skills. That's the red flag here.
> 
> It sounds that because that person has no social intelligence he is constantly leaning on the only weak conclusion she or he can understand. This is a red flag because you can figure out that she or he has no idea how to handle other people but is still hanging on to his or her only explanation. People who likes to think they are really smart (usually Ti or even Te dom ) don't understand their own incapability what comes to understanding people. Just because they don't know how to read people they think that there is nothing to read. That's foolishness. It is smart to understand your own limits.


Poor social skills does not mean they are an overall bad person does it? People who are autistic are suppose to have poor social skills does that mean they are all horrible people?

Sometimes a conclusion is correct even if you might find it terribly upsetting. You are going under the assumption that everything is sunshine and rainbows and honestly sometimes things dont get going unless someone is willing to say so. You can sugar coat all you want but sometimes things are just as they are.


----------



## Scarlet.Black

MisterPerfect said:


> Poor social skills does not mean they are an overall bad person does it? People who are autistic are suppose to have poor social skills does that mean they are all horrible people?
> 
> Sometimes a conclusion is correct even if you might find it terribly upsetting. You are going under the assumption that everything is sunshine and rainbows and honestly sometimes things dont get going unless someone is willing to say so. You can sugar coat all you want but sometimes things are just as they are.


You are totally missing the point and context of this thread. We were talking about the people who are not that nice to be with in a relationship. It is just a fact that people with poor social skills doesn't know how/focus on to make you happy. That has nothing to do with being horrible person. 

People with poor social skills sometimes only know one kind of intelligence - and that's one kind of stupidity ( the lack of social intelligence). So I would say that calling people stupid will show the lack of social intelligence and let's be honest - it is not charming. 

You keep repeating yourself. Sometimes your conclusion is wrong even if you keep thinking and telling that it is right.


----------



## ientipi

Some red flags...

-if he says 'but you're the one i come home to...'
-if he seems happy when you're sad 
-if he needs to break up to get 'resolution' with his ex 
-if you find your self esteem slipping when around him...and when you take a break it suddenly shoots way up
-if he consistently finds ways to give you backhanded compliments
-if he makes you feel guilty for being sad about his cheating 
-if you have to push back suspicions that he might be a creep 
or sociopath
-if he readily admits he sees people as possessions, even if you are his 'crown jewel' 
-if he pushes you to cyber bully on his behalf/ is happy when you do 
-if he doesn't like it when you are nice or friendly to others in general
-if he lies about mundane things often


----------



## Catherine1000

I don't know if this is a red flag. But it worries me. It has only happened three or four times in 7 months.

He gets "offended" over something little and when I (based on studying conflict resolution books), immediately look at it from his perspective, empathize, paraphrase it so he knows I understand why he is upset, and then apologize, he won't let it go until he has repeated two more times, in detail, what I did and why it was offensive.

Why does he feel a need to do this? Why isn't empathy and apology enough?

He is an INFP.

So far, everything else is amazing and wonderful.


----------



## Grad0507

He wants to make sure you understand how much it hurt him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lilsnowy

Catherine1000 said:


> I don't know if this is a red flag. But it worries me. It has only happened three or four times in 7 months.
> 
> He gets "offended" over something little and when I (based on studying conflict resolution books), immediately look at it from his perspective, empathize, paraphrase it so he knows I understand why he is upset, and then apologize, he won't let it go until he has repeated two more times, in detail, what I did and why it was offensive.
> 
> Why does he feel a need to do this? Why isn't empathy and apology enough?
> 
> He is an INFP.
> 
> So far, everything else is amazing and wonderful.


I can understand that you feel worried. 

Probably wondering if this a pattern. Is this what the relationship will be like? Will it get worse? 

I learned something helpful while volunteering at a crisis center. The ones who do not want help, the ones who do not want healing, the ones who are tying up your time due to loneliness or to be malicious: these people do not respond to empathy. They skip right past it and keep going back to the situation that bothers them. *In contrast, people who are truly in crisis respond very well to empathy. 
*
The fact that he doesn't respond well to empathy is a red flag. If he resists your empathy and keeps going back to how much you have offended him or how deeply you hurt him, I would make a bet that for him this is a control situation. Somewhere along the line he learned that making people feel guilty makes him feel in control. This tactic works particularly well when using it with empathetic people. As long as you continue to feel bad for how he must feel, or "for what you have done to him," he has power. Even gentle introverts can be controlling for different reasons. This has happened several times in only 7 months? 

Just a suggestion: The next time he skips over your apology and goes back to repeating how you have hurt him, state clearly that you have already shown your concern and apologized for your mistake. "I have apologized and I have to wonder why you are trying to make me feel worse. Now, I don't want to talk about this (or listen to this) any more." Do not apologize for this. Just look him in the eyes. If he starts in again about your offenses, or how he is "sorry you feel that way," repeat that you said you were done talking about it. Then walk away. Find something to do. Call a friend and go out. Read a book. Anything so he will feel the natural consequence of his behavior. 

You are setting boundaries on what you can or can't live with, not on what he can or can't do. I hope he will stop playing the victim. It's good you are questioning it.


----------



## sereneone

Lilsnowy said:


> I learned something helpful while volunteering at a crisis center. The ones who do not want help, the ones who do not want healing, the ones who are tying up your time due to loneliness or to be malicious: these people do not respond to empathy. They skip right past it and keep going back to the situation that bothers them. *In contrast, people who are truly in crisis respond very well to empathy.
> *
> The fact that he doesn't respond well to empathy is a red flag. If he resists your empathy and keeps going back to how much you have offended him or how deeply you hurt him, I would make a bet that for him this is a control situation. Somewhere along the line he learned that making people feel guilty makes him feel in control. This tactic works particularly well when using it with empathetic people. As long as you continue to feel bad for how he must feel, or "for what you have done to him," he has power. Even gentle introverts can be controlling for different reasons. This has happened several times in only 7 months?


The problem is most empathy in this world is fake. The people who tell you "Oh, I am so sorry to hear that" don't actually mean it and do not actually care. He is probably conditioned to believe that this is an insincere concern, and so he is misguided and therefore tries to press his point home to make sure she understands he feels hurt.

Maybe the more productive conversation for her to have with him would be to tell him something like "I have noticed that when I do something to hurt you, and you tell me about it, and I apologize, that you never seem to believe my apology. You keep repeating the original sin as if you don't believe my apology. Help me understand why you feel a need to do this...."

His answer to that pointed question will reveal his insecurities and his mindset, and it may trigger better communication between them going forward. At very least, he will understand that she wants to be heard by him, and she will understand why he is not hearing her.


----------



## Lilsnowy

sereneone said:


> The problem is most empathy in this world is fake. The people who tell you "Oh, I am so sorry to hear that" don't actually mean it and do not actually care. He is probably conditioned to believe that this is an insincere concern, and so he is misguided and therefore tries to press his point home to make sure she understands he feels hurt.
> 
> Maybe the more productive conversation for her to have with him would be to tell him something like "I have noticed that when I do something to hurt you, and you tell me about it, and I apologize, that you never seem to believe my apology. You keep repeating the original sin as if you don't believe my apology. Help me understand why you feel a need to do this...."
> 
> His answer to that pointed question will reveal his insecurities and his mindset, and it may trigger better communication between them going forward. At very least, he will understand that she wants to be heard by him, and she will understand why he is not hearing her.


Good points, all. I would clarify only that empathy and sympathy are similar and get confused. I would say that, "Oh, I am sorry to hear that." is a sympathetic statement because you're sharing the feeling/reaction.. "Oh, no! It can't be!" is your shock. "I wonder if you felt shocked?" is empathy because you're identifying the feelings of the other person: "It sounds like you feel that my apology wasn't sincere." "It sounds like you're feeling unsupported." 

I hope if it comes up again, that a conversation like the one you suggested does take place.


----------



## ientipi

@Scarlet.Black 
Just had to express how much I love your sig 😂😂


----------



## deviantcode

-Is always talking about how much prettier her sister is
-Is always saying she wishes she was like so and so, or comparing herself to other girls
-Is a superficial materialistic insecure low self esteem person, that only needs you for her constant validation. (yeah kinda obvious red flag)

Now a couple less obvious ones - but still obvious
-shows 0 interest in your interests. You can tell even when they act like they do because they won't remember anything about it an hour later. 

-tells you how you should feel and react to things.
-expects you to react a certain way over things. 

Just a few redflags, the second group I think can be fixed with maturity or worked around. The first, run as far away as you can. You can not fix someone.


----------



## Fluctuate

deviantcode said:


> -Is always talking about how much prettier her sister is
> -Is always saying she wishes she was like so and so, or comparing herself to other girls
> -Is a superficial materialistic insecure low self esteem person, that only needs you for her constant validation. (yeah kinda obvious red flag)
> 
> Now a couple less obvious ones - but still obvious
> -shows 0 interest in your interests. You can tell even when they act like they do because they won't remember anything about it an hour later.
> 
> -tells you how you should feel and react to things.
> -expects you to react a certain way over things.
> 
> Just a few redflags, the second group I think can be fixed with maturity or worked around. The first, run as far away as you can. You can not fix someone.


... Self-esteem can develop with age and maturity as well. It's not a good idea to date a person like this while they're demonstrating that behavior/mindset, but I don't think you should "run as far away as you can." Point it out to them!

Don't mean to be contrary, but ... I just hate for people to write each other off based off temporary, if undesirable characteristics.


----------



## angelfish

Catherine1000 said:


> I don't know if this is a red flag. But it worries me. It has only happened three or four times in 7 months.
> 
> He gets "offended" over something little and when I (based on studying conflict resolution books), immediately look at it from his perspective, empathize, paraphrase it so he knows I understand why he is upset, and then apologize, he won't let it go until he has repeated two more times, in detail, what I did and why it was offensive.
> 
> Why does he feel a need to do this? Why isn't empathy and apology enough?
> 
> He is an INFP.
> 
> So far, everything else is amazing and wonderful.


My fiance has told me I am annoying about repeatedly going through situations that upset me. I like to analyze things, to break them down and understand what lead to what and how A got to B got to C got to the conclusion. I do this with almost all information, but I don't usually hash that out in front of other people - but it seems pertinent when it comes to relationship issues. And then if the other person doesn't seem interested or like they get it, that bothers me a lot, because it seems to me like they don't care about what happened or why I'm hurt or the problem that occurred so they can avoid it in the future. To me it feels like I'm helping teach him how to avoid the same situation again, which theoretically he "should" be really interested in. 

So maybe your INFP is like me, and it's more about his way of seeing/assessing/addressing problems than it is about him not letting go of a small offense. The infrequency of it and the fact that it's usually about small stuff makes me think it's not really a major anger or blame issue so much as it's some kind of odd little stress/repression/analysis hangup on his end.


----------



## deviantcode

Restful Wanderer said:


> ... Self-esteem can develop with age and maturity as well. It's not a good idea to date a person like this while they're demonstrating that behavior/mindset, but I don't think you should "run as far away as you can." Point it out to them!
> 
> Don't mean to be contrary, but ... I just hate for people to write each other off based off temporary,f if undesirable characteristics.


If you really care about this person and think you can wait 1- X amount of years to SEE if they mature go ahead and do it. Might not be worth it, but it's your gamble.


----------



## Catherine1000

To me it feels like I'm helping teach him how to avoid the same situation again, which theoretically he "should" be really interested in. 

So maybe your INFP is like me, and it's more about his way of seeing/assessing/addressing problems than it is about him not letting go of a small offense. 





angelfish,

Wow, thank you for this insight. It sounds like the kind of thing he would do. Looking at it this way, it doesn't seem like a bad thing.


----------



## Catherine1000

Lilsnowy said:


> I can understand that you feel worried.
> 
> Probably wondering if this a pattern. Is this what the relationship will be like? Will it get worse?
> 
> I learned something helpful while volunteering at a crisis center. The ones who do not want help, the ones who do not want healing, the ones who are tying up your time due to loneliness or to be malicious: these people do not respond to empathy. They skip right past it and keep going back to the situation that bothers them. *In contrast, people who are truly in crisis respond very well to empathy.
> *
> The fact that he doesn't respond well to empathy is a red flag. If he resists your empathy and keeps going back to how much you have offended him or how deeply you hurt him, I would make a bet that for him this is a control situation. Somewhere along the line he learned that making people feel guilty makes him feel in control. This tactic works particularly well when using it with empathetic people. As long as you continue to feel bad for how he must feel, or "for what you have done to him," he has power. Even gentle introverts can be controlling for different reasons. This has happened several times in only 7 months?
> 
> Just a suggestion: The next time he skips over your apology and goes back to repeating how you have hurt him, state clearly that you have already shown your concern and apologized for your mistake. "I have apologized and I have to wonder why you are trying to make me feel worse. Now, I don't want to talk about this (or listen to this) any more." Do not apologize for this. Just look him in the eyes. If he starts in again about your offenses, or how he is "sorry you feel that way," repeat that you said you were done talking about it. Then walk away. Find something to do. Call a friend and go out. Read a book. Anything so he will feel the natural consequence of his behavior.
> 
> You are setting boundaries on what you can or can't live with, not on what he can or can't do. I hope he will stop playing the victim. It's good you are questioning it.


Thank you SO much for this insight and advice. You're amazing. Both you and sereneone make excellent points. I am going to think about all of them, sort of analyze future interactions with all your points in mind, and try to figure out where he's really coming from. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and try sereneone's gentler approach first and if that doesn't work, I will definitely say EXACTLY what you advised me to say.


----------



## Catherine1000

sereneone said:


> The problem is most empathy in this world is fake. The people who tell you "Oh, I am so sorry to hear that" don't actually mean it and do not actually care. He is probably conditioned to believe that this is an insincere concern, and so he is misguided and therefore tries to press his point home to make sure she understands he feels hurt.
> 
> Maybe the more productive conversation for her to have with him would be to tell him something like "I have noticed that when I do something to hurt you, and you tell me about it, and I apologize, that you never seem to believe my apology. You keep repeating the original sin as if you don't believe my apology. Help me understand why you feel a need to do this...."
> 
> His answer to that pointed question will reveal his insecurities and his mindset, and it may trigger better communication between them going forward. At very least, he will understand that she wants to be heard by him, and she will understand why he is not hearing her.



This is a great insight and great suggestion. I'm pasting it (and Lilsnowy's from above and below) in a word document to refer to and sort of memorize, analyze future similar interactions, say to him exactly what Lilsnowy suggests below and if that doesn't work, then exactly what you suggest, and see how he reacts. THANK YOU!!


----------



## Catherine1000

Lilsnowy said:


> Good points, all. I would clarify only that empathy and sympathy are similar and get confused. I would say that, "Oh, I am sorry to hear that." is a sympathetic statement because you're sharing the feeling/reaction.. "Oh, no! It can't be!" is your shock. "I wonder if you felt shocked?" is empathy because you're identifying the feelings of the other person: "It sounds like you feel that my apology wasn't sincere." "It sounds like you're feeling unsupported."
> 
> I hope if it comes up again, that a conversation like the one you suggested does take place.




Thank you for this also. I have pasted it into a word document. Great illustration about empathy. I will use these exact sentences you suggest! Nice, gentle, not even remotely confrontational... If these don't work, I'll use the words sereneone suggests. If THAT doesn't work, I'll use your advice in your first response.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Catherine1000 said:


> Thank you SO much for this insight and advice. You're amazing. Both you and sereneone make excellent points. I am going to think about all of them, sort of analyze future interactions with all your points in mind, and try to figure out where he's really coming from. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and try sereneone's gentler approach first and if that doesn't work, I will definitely say EXACTLY what you advised me to say.


We tend to give people more chances than they deserve, (to learn to trust us) so that is why I offered the confrontational approach. I like the gentler approach too.


----------



## Morpheus83

When you explain your grievances and the other person says s/he never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc... There's no attempt at empathy--only justification and excuses.


----------



## LegendaryBoobs

Morpheus83 said:


> When you explain your grievances and the other person says s/he never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc... There's no attempt at empathy--only justification and excuses.


----------



## Scarlet.Black

Morpheus83 said:


> When you explain your grievances and the other person says s/he never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc... There's no attempt at empathy--only justification and excuses.


So it would be better if they would not apologize at all? How would you know that they don't mean that? If you say like that it sounds like you just wanna feel that you have a right for your feelings and nothing that others do or don't do doesn't matter.


----------



## Morpheus83

Scarlet.Black said:


> So it would be better if they would not apologize at all? How would you know that they don't mean that? If you say like that it sounds like you just wanna feel that you have a right for your feelings and nothing that others do or don't do doesn't matter.


I never said anything about apologising, and a statement of intention isn't the same thing as an apology. And if you're justifying what you did without acknowledging the other person's perspective, how is that any kind of 'apology'? It's just another way of saying 'I'm right and have my reasons, so suck it up.' And just how helpful is 'sincerity' if the 'offender' doesn't understand *why* the other person sees something as an issue, and the offender doesn't necessarily intend to change his/her behaviour to make recompense (assuming the offender values the relationship with the other party)? And what's wrong with having one's 'right' to feelings? People emotionally respond to other people's actions regardless of intention. It's not a 'right'--it's an observation of what already happens. And if there's been a 'misunderstanding', how is it going to help diffuse the tension if it's unclear WHERE the misunderstanding is because the offender is too busy trying to 'justify' his/her actions instead of listening and empathising? That's the point of showing empathy in any conflict.


----------



## The Rational Thinker

Morpheus83 said:


> When you explain your grievances and the other person says s/he never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc... There's no attempt at empathy--only justification and excuses.


 @Morpheus83 - Hmm, I think I know where you are going with this. I think what you are saying is - it can be difficult being in a relationship with someone who never takes responsibility for their actions, and is passive-aggressive about it. Sometimes, I think that the "_I'm sorry if I hurt you_" or "_I never intended to hurt you_," line is used to remove their personal responsibility, and passively throw the blame back onto you. This kind of behaviour is a serious red-flag. If you have screwed up, cut the bullshit, and please be an adult about it.


----------



## Scarlet.Black

Morpheus83 said:


> I never said anything about apologising, and a statement of intention isn't the same thing as an apology. And if you're justifying what you did without acknowledging the other person's perspective, how is that any kind of 'apology'? It's just another way of saying 'I'm right and have my reasons, so suck it up.' And just how helpful is 'sincerity' if the 'offender' doesn't understand *why* the other person sees something as an issue, and the offender doesn't necessarily intend to change his/her behaviour to make recompense (assuming the offender values the relationship with the other party)? And what's wrong with having one's 'right' to feelings? People emotionally respond to other people's actions regardless of intention. It's not a 'right'--it's an observation of what already happens. And if there's been a 'misunderstanding', how is it going to help diffuse the tension if it's unclear WHERE the misunderstanding is because the offender is too busy trying to 'justify' his/her actions instead of listening and empathising? That's the point of showing empathy in any conflict.


You use word "says" and not "make a statement" so I thought that you could also be talking about apology. For me it is enough if they didn't mean to hurt me. They are not responsible for my feelings and how I interpret things so I don't need them to be sorry for something that happened by accident. Well I think that people have a right to explain their actions even if they apolozise. I don't want to despise someones logic and prioritize my own feelings over it. I prefer open discussion where both have an opportunity to explain how they see things. I am ready to accept that my feelings are mine - others don't have to follow my feelings. But I didn't say that there is anything wrong about having feelings.

I don't understand why you are giving me a speech about something I didn't decline.


----------



## Scarlet.Black

The Rational Thinker said:


> @Morpheus83 - Hmm, I think I know where you are going with this. I think what you are saying is - it can be difficult being in a relationship with someone who never takes responsibility for their actions, and is passive-aggressive about it. Sometimes, I think that the "_I'm sorry if I hurt you_" or "_I never intended to hurt you_," line is used to remove their personal responsibility, and passively throw the blame back onto you. This kind of behaviour is a serious red-flag. If you have screwed up, cut the bullshit, and please be an adult about it.


I agree that it can be passive-aggressive behavior but it is not the only explanation. That's why I asked how you can know that they don't mean it.


----------



## The Rational Thinker

Scarlet.Black said:


> I agree that it can be passive-aggressive behavior but it is not the only explanation. That's why I asked how you can know that they don't mean it.


Passive-aggression is defined as an indirect form of communication with hostile intent. It is a communication style characterised in an un-assertive form, with an active, veiled form of hostility. How does one know whether something is passive-aggressive? Well, I suppose that would depend on the context, wouldn't it? Body language, tone of voice, situational relevance, your relationship with the person, behavioral patterns, the intent behind what the other person is communicating, etc. are examples of things that may be able to help decipher whether something is passive-aggressive.

As @Morpheus83 originally asserted - phrases such as 'I _never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc_,' do come (SPECIAL NOTE: _*sometimes*_) across as somewhat unempathetic, and as a justification for certain behaviors. What I understand of Morpheus83's original comment (and Morpheus83 may correct me if I have misunderstood) was that passive-aggressive behavior whereby a partner shows a pattern of justifying hurtful behaviors - is a relationship redflag. I have to agree with this sentiment. So, bigger picture @Scarlet.Black - a sheer lack of ability in taking responsibility for hurtful behavior may be a redflag, and I might add that a consistent pattern of passive-aggressive behavior may also be a redflag. Those were our over-arching assertions.

Does that make sense? :happy:


----------



## Scarlet.Black

The Rational Thinker said:


> Passive-aggression is defined as an indirect form of communication with hostile intent. It is a communication style characterised in an un-assertive form, with an active, veiled form of hostility. How does one know whether something is passive-aggressive? Well, I suppose that would depend on the context, wouldn't it? Body language, tone of voice, situational relevance, your relationship with the person, behavioral patterns, the intent behind what the other person is communicating, etc. are examples of things that may be able to help decipher whether something is passive-aggressive.
> 
> As @Morpheus83 originally asserted - phrases such as 'I _never 'intended' to hurt you, mislead you, etc_,' do come (SPECIAL NOTE: _*sometimes*_) across as somewhat unempathetic, and as a justification for certain behaviors. What I understand of Morpheus83's original comment (and Morpheus83 may correct me if I have misunderstood) was that passive-aggressive behavior whereby a partner shows a pattern of justifying hurtful behaviors - is a relationship redflag. I have to agree with this sentiment. So, bigger picture @Scarlet.Black - a sheer lack of ability in taking responsibility for hurtful behavior may be a redflag, and I might add that a consistent pattern of passive-aggressive behavior may also be a redflag. Those were our over-arching assertions.
> 
> Does that make sense? :happy:


Thank you for clearification but my point was that the situation which he described in his first post is not always passive aggressive  behavior.


----------



## Eos_Machai

*Red flag 1:* _If it is a struggle_ (then it's probably shit). 

No relationship is always easy, but it should be easy must of the time. If a relationship consumes more energy long term than it gives, you should really leave no matter how you feel about it. 



*Red flag 2:* _Bad relations with ex:es._
I can proudly say that I love my ex:es and they love me. And I get that everyone could get into bad relationships, but if you talk down on all of your ex:es then you probably are as much at fault yourself.


----------



## Antipode

Eos_Machai said:


> *Red flag 2:* _Bad relations with ex:es._
> I can proudly say that I love my ex:es and they love me. And I get that everyone could get into bad relationships, but if you talk down on all of your ex:es then you probably are as much at fault yourself.


Huh... I agree with that being a red flag; however, it's also a red flag to me if I'm dating someone who is still in love with their ex, and their ex is still in love with them... I'd prefer not being friends with my ex, and I'd prefer dating someone who wasn't hanging out solo with their ex because they still are super close.


----------



## Eos_Machai

Antipode said:


> Huh... I agree with that being a red flag; however, it's also a red flag to me if I'm dating someone who is still in love with their ex, and their ex is still in love with them... I'd prefer not being friends with my ex, and I'd prefer dating someone who wasn't hanging out solo with their ex because they still are super close.


Loving someone is not the same thing as being in love with someone. I would love all people if I could.



It definitly feels wrong and quite senseless to me to stop being friends with people I like/love just because we don't want to have a romantic relationship anymore. Good friendships takes a lot of time to grow so they are important to keep imo. I can definitly relate to jelousy, but I don't think you should adapt to it but rather talk about it.


----------



## 604

I didn't think it was a red flag at the time but damn was I wrong. She said "drama is exciting" She turned out to be a crazy person.


----------



## Spiren

- Interprets normal conversations with the opposite sex in a light that alludes to interest in them often; jealousy barely ever works on me
- Offers 'empathy' instead of understanding
- Would rather brush past a topic stating feelings than actively listening to what you think
- Becomes accustomed to a dynamic where you are the calm one and fails when you reveal you are human
- Needs a lot of compliments and gets sexual when she doesn't receive them (I like sex but not as a means of demanding attention, it only works early on in the relationship when I can't control my libido)
- Doesn't respect your alone time; conversely, does not communicate needing alone time
- Appears to have no individual interests or forgoes them in favour of maximum time spent together. Dependency?
- Takes on your music, interests, acquaintances as her own and then later raises these subjects as being original interests of her own affecting a transparent confusion. This actually happened.
- Speaks about your private matters with others or rants about you. I don't mind my sex life being talked about bar the very kinky shit we do, but matters that are an insight into my psyche? Just no.


----------



## arcanus_intus

When she tells you that she's a bitch and hates men - even though you might take that as a challenge to change her mind - you won't - take it as a Red Flag.


----------



## Aletheia

Feigns being upset about something and then states that he could make himself actually upset about it if he wanted to

Says he wishes you were more clingy and seems disappointed by lack of jealousy provoked

Messiah/Saviour complex

Cannot and will not own up to any wrongdoing

Constantly puts ex in a bad light

Continually crosses boundaries and need for space

Along with mirroring, rushing intimacy, love bombing and all the others that I so expertly avoided recognizing.


----------



## Metalize

*PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR* — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

*PATHOLOGICAL LYING* — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
*
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM* — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine
*
SHALLOW AFFECT* — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.


Source: Psychopathic Traits – The Sociopathic Style
Would obviously apply to any sort of close relationship (friendly, business, etc.) with this group of people.


----------



## tasteoflife

Are looking for a partner.

Which is different from wanting a partner. I get the sense that people that are always looking for a partner can't really LIKE someone. They kind of just want someone right there with them, and any person will do, or they TRY to like the person.

In my view, you live your live, meet people and then, when you meet someone you LIKE, you are going to want he/she as a partner. Really liking someone so much you'd like he/she as a partner.


----------



## daleks_exterminate

I dated someone who threatened to put nude pics of me on 4chan if he got pissed or if I broke up with him. 

Thats a pretty huge one.


----------



## Spiren

When she can't even list wtf she likes about you.

When labels like the above are thrown around - sociopath, narcissist, psychopath, etc. (whether at you, in conversation about her friends or crude summaries of her exes) but her working knowledge with the terms are pretty limited when you get into it. This is actually a big one since many women online seem to be caught up in these profiles where I see a lack of introspection despite claims as to their EQ. It takes two to fuck up and that is not laying blame on anyone.



windspeaks said:


> Says he wishes you were more clingy and seems disappointed by lack of jealousy provoked
> 
> Messiah/*Saviour* complex
> 
> Along with mirroring, *rushing intimacy, love bombing* and all the others that I so expertly avoided recognizing.


Lol, some dynamics are built entirely around this.



daleks_exterminate said:


> I dated someone who threatened to put nude pics of me on 4chan if he got pissed or if I broke up with him.
> 
> Thats a pretty huge one.


That's not a red flag, that's the green light to exact revenge. That kind of shit is disgraceful.

How did you get out of that one?


----------



## kaleidoscope

Nyle said:


> Offers 'empathy' instead of understanding


What's your understanding of the difference between the two? Why is empathy a red flag? 



> Speaks about your private matters with others or rants about you. I don't mind my sex life being talked about bar the very kinky shit we do, but matters that are an insight into my psyche? Just no.


Lol, this makes me wonder about all of us posting about our SOs on this forum. Yikes.


----------



## Wolf

Nyle said:


> - Offers 'empathy' instead of understanding


Isn't empathy the understanding / _attempted_ understanding of another's emotions & feelings?

Maybe you have a contrasting definition?


----------



## Spiren

kaleidoscope said:


> What's your understanding of the difference between the two? Why is empathy a red flag?





A Lone Wolf said:


> Isn't empathy the understanding / _attempted_ understanding of another's emotions & feelings?
> 
> Maybe you have a contrasting definition?


I used 'empathy' with quotation marks. 

Empathy is a buzzword that is little understood, this becomes exceedingly obvious if you browse a few conversations online or strike up a conversation in person. Granted, it may depend upon the company you keep.

From what I understand, there are two basic components to empathy:

1) Application of theory of mind
2) Reacting appropriately to 1)

both of which are contingent upon real understanding, rather than assumed understanding.

All too often step 1 is not implemented adequately and progression to stage 2 is inherently flawed as a result. It is important to spot this rather than allow repeat performances under the guise of 'empathy'.

I've been around too many females who think themselves extremely empathetic and have had the opportunity to observe their mindset around both myself and others to know they're somewhat deluded. I don't know if this is the Ni factoring in yet I am forced to acknowledge people differ much in their mindsets that the tendency I see amongst many to apply a basic idea of empathy indiscriminately from one person to the next is useless. Maybe I idealise empathy, I don't know.

I found this interesting but it further cements the idea that I don't see this truly being implemented by the number of people who claim to be capable of it. There's a link there to a proposed 'empathy map', it does a brilliant job of illustrating how much influence the mind of the person trying to be empathetic has on their understands of another - basically, a lot of projection. This is more useful for liberal usage, deep relationships require more than this. To me, anyway.

Although I learnt I could understand and predict people's behaviour better than most around me, I didn't understand how this wasn't related to feelings (probably because I didn't particularly care for feelings and did not think decisions should be based upon them). When I realised this was lacking, I decided to read about it and practice skills I've read. Obviously, this led to spotting this behaviour in others and thus I consider myself fairly impartial here and more concerned with the effectiveness of methods employed and claims made as to their usage.



kaleidoscope said:


> Lol, this makes me wonder about all of us posting about our SOs on this forum. Yikes.


Well, you haven't mentioned any names online. Do you know anyone on here who knows you both?

For me there is a murky line between sharing information on a relationship because you seek to understand your partner better and ranting about what one dislikes in one's partner. Why not raise the situation with your partner instead? It boggles my mind that one can dislike aspects of one's partner to the extent to which they'll rant about this to friends and others yet never raise the issue with their partner. Or, if they have and nothing has changed, remain with their partner. This is a red flag because while the former is an earnest endeavour to improve the relationship from a healthy perspective, the latter is playing the victim and can be attributed to many unhealthy outlooks. The line is murky, because there needs to be some allowance for quirks in self-expression and human requirements for validation.

You fall neatly into the former category.

I generally advise people (particularly women) implement the below:

(Why? Because abuse happens and that is something no one need tolerate.)

When you are confused over a behaviour that is distressing you in some way, there is a possibility that it maybe manipulation or emotional abuse. This would be time to both seek information and advice. There are many accounts of where abuse has taken place and partners have become isolated. In such relationships, there was a dynamic where they were unable to seek new insight that may have helped them leave sooner - sometimes this was forced upon them by their abusers.


----------



## Eset

Relationship Red Flags:

When they think eating pizza and playing video games is "lame".
When they think Anime is "lame".
When they think I'm "lame".


----------



## meaningless

When the person blames things you didn't do on you
When they're too dependent on you
When they play mind games with you


----------



## annarosenet

I went on a few dates and here are the red flags I've experienced;

If he lies to you on a simple matters. RED FLAG
If he expects you to be a walking ATM. RED FLAG
If he dominates every single conversation. And I mean every single conversation. RED FLAG
If he tells you he loves you after one date and tries to give you a pearl necklace along with asking you to go on the Appalachian trail after you rejected him when he said I love you. MAJOR RED FLAG


----------



## Lilsnowy

When very early on, he makes comments which make you feel uneasy about your choices or makes you feel like you have to explain your personal choices or intentions, in particular about things that have nothing to do with him. _"Wow, how much did you spend on that dress? Didn't you just buy one last week? How many do they expect you to wear?" _The fact that he has the audacity to question your spending (in a really concerned voice of course,) and you have only known each other for a few weeks is a RED FLAG. MAJOR RED FLAG, PEOPLE! CONTROLLER ALERT!

And what's sick is that even though you feel a little weird and uneasy about it, you do explain your reasoning. And because you explain it that one time, it will happen more and more until one day you realize that he was trying to manipulate you into not making any decisions without his approval. And you realize that over time you were starting to feel uncomfortable making decisions and your uneasiness made him feel powerful and arrogant. And then you start to feel hate for the first time in your life. 

JUST SAY NO. IT IS NOT WORTH IT.


----------



## camous

When the person can't be straightforward if they feel there is an issue, not say anything and then blame you for it.


----------



## Kitty666

Lilsnowy said:


> When very early on, he makes comments which make you feel uneasy about your choices or makes you feel like you have to explain your personal choices or intentions, in particular about things that have nothing to do with him. _"Wow, how much did you spend on that dress? Didn't you just buy one last week? How many do they expect you to wear?" _The fact that he has the audacity to question your spending (in a really concerned voice of course,) and you have only known each other for a few weeks is a RED FLAG. MAJOR RED FLAG, PEOPLE! CONTROLLER ALERT!
> 
> And what's sick is that even though you feel a little weird and uneasy about it, you do explain your reasoning. And because you explain it that one time, it will happen more and more until one day you realize that he was trying to manipulate you into not making any decisions without his approval. And you realize that over time you were starting to feel uncomfortable making decisions and your uneasiness made him feel powerful and arrogant. And then you start to feel hate for the first time in your life.
> 
> JUST SAY NO. IT IS NOT WORTH IT.


This is great, and I think extends to just about any sort of _persistent_ and _unsolicited_ opinion, but of course moreso when directed at a supposed object of interest. 

It can be in response to any kind of personal choice or opinion you might have, and typically outside the norm of what might be expected in casual conversation. It's even worse when it's not even an SO but just a loser trying to neg you by hoping that your self-confidence or respect are low enough for you to try and start appealing to them. Though I guess if it's not an SO, then one can be grateful for the early warning sign.


----------



## Tropes

I find it interesting how almost every red flag here has some sort of a story behind it, everything from bad dates to relationships fights and big breakups, all folded into tight life lessons so elegent they can fit in misfortunte cookies.


----------



## MisterPerfect

Jack Rabid said:


> I am starting this thread as a public service to us all..
> 
> It seems so many of us have been burned by love that maybe if we paid attention to
> those little red flags, we wouldn't have been..
> 
> But what if you don't know what to look for?
> 
> That is why this thread could be a handy reference to us all..
> 
> Please share you own.. the more the merrier
> 
> 1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
> 2- If she has collection agencies calling everyday.. Red Flag
> 3- If she has moved 6 times in the last 3 years..Red Flag
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 5- If every little coincidence is somehow a magical moment of synchronicity and fate.. Red Flag
> 6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag
> 
> what do you have?? :crazy:


So having a stalker is the victims fault?


----------



## Lilsnowy

Kitty666 said:


> This is great, and I think extends to just about any sort of _persistent_ and _unsolicited_ opinion, but of course moreso when directed at a supposed object of interest.
> 
> It can be in response to any kind of personal choice or opinion you might have, and typically outside the norm of what might be expected in casual conversation. It's even worse when it's not even an SO but just a loser trying to neg you by hoping that your self-confidence or respect are low enough for you to try and start appealing to them. Though I guess if it's not an SO, then one can be grateful for the early warning sign.


Yes. Thanks!


----------



## Tropes

MisterPerfect said:


> Jack Rabid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 
> 
> 
> So having a stalker is the victims fault?
Click to expand...

If he is an actual stalker, wave hello. Otherwise, it depends if there is a pattern. The narrative role someone gives their ex's is a potentially good predictor of the narrative role they'd give you. If everyone someone has ever dated turned out to be a creep/stalker/asshole/bitch/villain, that's might not be a role you want to audition for.


----------



## diamond_mouth

- When the guy you've been seeing for a month asks you to delete all your ex's comments and all traces's of your ex from your Facebook account.
- When he see's I am visibly upset he completely ignores it and doesn't even ask what's wrong - just stays silent. 
- When he asks you to travel Europe with him for 3 months after only 2 months dating.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Tropes said:


> I find it interesting how almost every red flag here has some sort of a story behind it, everything from bad dates to relationships fights and big breakups, all folded into tight life lessons so elegent they can fit in misfortunte cookies.


Yes. We learn from experience and hopefully others will learn from our experiences.


----------



## peter pettishrooms

Thinks that at least 70% of people around them are of inferior intelligence. That type of elitist attitude is not cute. 

Always brings up their ex(es). Shows a lack of ability to move on and it is especially pathetic if they can't get over an ex after a year. Personally, I think that those who use others as a rebound are just looking for their own personal therapist when they should be seeking a legit one. 

Lack of personal hygiene. Being sharply dressed and bathed in cologne is certainly not a requirement, but if you can't do basic things when it comes to taking care of yourself, you must be one lazy cow.


----------



## inmymind

I always thought Red Flags were deal breakers, or if not, very close to it. Red usually means stop. Danger.


----------



## veganmagic

Being religious.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution

tasteoflife said:


> Are looking for a partner.
> 
> Which is different from wanting a partner. I get the sense that people that are always looking for a partner can't really LIKE someone. They kind of just want someone right there with them, and any person will do, or they TRY to like the person.
> 
> In my view, you live your live, meet people and then, when you meet someone you LIKE, you are going to want he/she as a partner. Really liking someone so much you'd like he/she as a partner.


This. And jumping from relationship to relationship. Why do people do this.


----------



## Ernaldaes

Nyle said:


> - Appears to have no individual interests or forgoes them in favour of maximum time spent together. Dependency?
> .


That's something I actually like, at least to a certain extent =/ Red flag for me?


----------



## Lilsnowy

Ernaldaes said:


> That's something I actually like, at least to a certain extent =/ Red flag for me?


I would say that if you expect the other person to drop everything to be with you, or to always choose you over others, it may be a red flag for you. 

I can see changing plans to be together, but when she has no plans but you, no friends but you, no interests but you, she might eventually expect you to meet all her needs, and if you don't there will be hell to pay. When the trouble starts, you see moping, passive aggression or overt anger when you spend time with other people or interests. Anyone who is disproportionately dependent on another person, or seems interested in only what you are interested in, with no life of his or her own, probably has issues that the person they are dating is not qualified to help. That kind of relationship can end up overwhelming and even scary.


----------



## LBDdee

When you're an NF and they are ST, RED FLAG. 
VERY subjective but this has never failed me. I'm way too sensitive to deal with an ST. All they want is conflict and I just want to stay away.

Also, if a person has a really bad relationship with their family and have few friends, even though their family has great relationships with each other and have plenty friends. RED FLAG


----------



## Ernaldaes

Lilsnowy said:


> I would say that if you expect the other person to drop everything to be with you, or to always choose you over others, it may be a red flag for you.
> 
> I can see changing plans to be together, but when she has no plans but you, no friends but you, no interests but you, she might eventually expect you to meet all her needs, and if you don't there will be hell to pay. When the trouble starts, you see moping, passive aggression or overt anger when you spend time with other people or interests. Anyone who is disproportionately dependent on another person, or seems interested in only what you are interested in, with no life of his or her own, probably has issues that the person they are dating is not qualified to help. That kind of relationship can end up overwhelming and even scary.


I wouldn't say that, but I like spending a lot of time with the other person. Binge watching shows together for instance 'god, I love that). Obviously each person needs to have their own interests and hobbies/friends because you can't always be together, and indeed no single person can fulfill all of anothers needs, but yea  Thanks for the clarification


----------



## ECM

My ex INFP GF who cheated on me twice for not being able to buy a house in Canada to marry her fast enough in the space of a couple of months had;



Jack Rabid said:


> 1- If she tells you she loves you on the 2nd date.. Red Flag
> 3- If she has moved 6 times in the last 3 years..Red Flag
> 4- If she calls all her ex boyfriends "stalker" and such.. Red Flag
> 6- If the very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag


----------



## 45130

From Reddit: 


> I think the biggest red flag is when you look at yourself and see that you don't like who you are when you're around this person. You might like this person, but if they're making you feel irritable, paranoid or plain crazy, get out of there. It doesn't have to be something obvious like cheating. You should date people who make you feel safe and comfortable, not the opposite. Sometimes it's the wrong person, sometimes it's the wrong time, sometimes it's both.


----------



## Desthro

Jack Rabid said:


> 6- If the *e*very 1st disagreement you have causes her to have an existential crisis.. Red Flag


Oh no. . . what have I been doing for the past 16 months.


----------



## koalaroo

People who want to commit after 1-2 dates.


----------



## kaleidoscope

koalaroo said:


> People who want to commit after 1-2 dates.


I've had that experience, and it has made me very uncomfortable. I didn't go as far as considering it a red flag, but now I'm curious. What has your experience or observation been?


----------



## Roman Empire

kaleidoscope said:


> I've had that experience, and it has made me very uncomfortable. I didn't go as far as considering it a red flag, but now I'm curious. What has your experience or observation been?


kaleidoscope, I find you very very sweet based on the few lines we exchanged. So.. do you want to be my girlfriend?


----------



## ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf

Some ones that don't always get picked up on, not that they're giant red flags, but still red and flags...

1) Assumes a lot. Indicates selfishness and basically acts as a subconscious threat to the partner that if they don't fulfill their very specific expectations, they won't love or accept them.

2) How they treat and/or talk about their exes. BIG red flag. If they hate ALL of their guts, and nothing was ever their fault, and they have a ton of them...yeah, not good.

3) If they live in "fantasies" i.e. love video/computer games, anime, comic books, WAY too much, not gonna be healthy. You need someone who is present in their own life in order to build a life with them. I think it's a big red flag.

4) This one is a personal red flag: pity party-throwers. CAN NOT STAND IT. No "woe is me" bull. No. No. No. Grow up.

5) If they're into the "dark arts." Play with ouija boards, crystals, etc. Not only is it insane and creepy, just stay away for many, many reasons. I had a friend who dated a girl that did this stuff, and, shocker! she was a tire-slashing nut job. Big ol' red flag.


----------



## Lonewaer

ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> 1) Assumes a lot. Indicates selfishness and basically acts as a subconscious threat to the partner that if they don't fulfill their very specific expectations, they won't love or accept them.


Fair enough, why not, let's see how this goes.



ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> 2) How they treat and/or talk about their exes. BIG red flag. *If they hate ALL of their guts, and nothing was ever their fault, and they have a ton of them...yeah, not good*.


Read 1) again, bolded is you doing 1). For all you know… you know nothing about them. Them saying that, in a nutshell, tells you nothing. You'd need details, facts, to be able to pass a decent judgment on that. Me and current date have talked some amount about exes, so far everything is going well. If a friend of mine told you about one particular ex of his, and only that one so you don't know if there are more, you'd judge him as not taking responsibility for the failure of the relationship ; that specific ex once threatened him with a katana. One other cheated on him after getting a civil marriage. Maybe he did (or didn't) things to make her do that, but he's not a cheater, and she revealed herself to be one in the end. He's angry when he has to talk about either, and based on that you'd be seeing that as a red-flag and that would be your loss.



ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> 3) If they live in "fantasies" i.e. love video/computer games, anime, comic books, WAY too much, not gonna be healthy. You need someone who is present in their own life in order to build a life with them. I think it's a big red flag.


That's a personal distaste, not a red-flag.



ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> 4) This one is a personal red flag: pity party-throwers. CAN NOT STAND IT. No "woe is me" bull. No. No. No. Grow up.


Again, personal taste. I can agree to some degree, but you're dismissing the entirety of it without knowing the details (why/how). You're also judging them immature for *your* standards ("grow up"), and breaking news, those aren't universal. They are yours, and you seem to have high standards based on this post only.



ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> 5) If they're into the "dark arts." Play with ouija boards, crystals, etc. Not only is it insane and creepy, just stay away for many, many reasons. I had a friend who dated a girl that did this stuff, and, shocker! she was a tire-slashing nut job. Big ol' red flag.


Again, personal taste. I'll join you on that one, but red-flag, meh.

You're overall very judgmental, and as such, assuming a lot, contradicting your 1), making it bullshit. Sometimes people's intuitions are dead on point and you're classifying those as "assumptions". Sometimes people can see right through you even when you yourself don't. The last few years have proven some amount of my intuitions factually correct, the same intuitions that had been flagged as "assumptions" by some people. Were they assumptions or intuitions, we'll never know for sure. In the meantime, they were at least one thing, and that is : factually correct.

Mixing assumptions and intuitions up from the beginning would be a red flag for myself, especially if the person *does* make a lot of assumptions.


----------



## ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf

Ok, then.

In interpersonal relationships, when someone "assumes" you have already done something/will be ok with something, "Oh, I just thought you would take care of that," or "I thought you'd be ok with it," especially when it comes to relatively major actions that effect both of you, it's that person "assuming," mostly as an afterthought, your thoughts/feelings/wellbeing. 

If my gf walked through the door with a puppy in her arms and was like, "surprise!" and finds me upset, then goes "I thought you'd be happy," that's a cover-up for "I wanted one and just didn't think to ask you," or "I really just didn't care." It's not them having tried to "intuit" how I would feel, which would be different if we had been discussing it, I'd been dropping hints, she knew I loved dogs, and thus decided to surprise me with a puppy. _That_ I would consider as using intuition. The other is selfishness/immaturity that's only after self-gratification. And that behavior/attitude I do think warrants a red flag. That was really what I was getting at. 

Based off the batch of people I've known in rl, (co-workers, friends of friends) who had upwards of 5 exes, and deemed **all** these exes to be "bad" "cold" "heartless" "immature" "crazy" etc. and **accepted no fault, whatsoever, on their behalf** for the relationships ending, when I talked to them about it, were all, for some mysterious reason, single, bitter and emotional unstable. 

My former boss was an incredibly charismatic, charming guy, had 3 ex-wives, said each was a crazy bitch. He left the second one and moved across the country, didn't tell her he was leaving, and that was how he communicated to her he wanted a divorce--mind you, no abuse, he told me he just wanted out. Said he had **no clue** why none of his romantic relationships ever work out. Then I actually met his first wife at a gala--she was _nothing_ like how he painted her. And as far as I know, he's still single and trash talks women as being "illogical freaks" while trying to flirt with 18 year old waitresses. I'd say that's a red flag.

You can call that "assuming" all you want, but I've known quite a few men and women like him, and as far as I know, they're all still single and bitter about their many exes. 

I do not know of one person right now in my life (even in extended circles) who is in a **happy, healthy** relationship that is **highly obsessed** with a fantasy game/world of some sort. Again, I know many couples who go to anime conventions and like video games that are in good relationships, but I'm talking being immersed in that stuff 24/7, always watching/playing, all they can talk about, etc. And the people that I know who are like that, are, again, all single or in severely miserable relationships and unable to cope with their lives, using the fantasy world for excessive escapism, usually along with drugs while living in their parents' house. And I'm talking late 20s-early 30s age. It's a strong indicator of other problems is what I'm saying. 

"You need someone who is present in their own life in order to build a life with them." That's just a pure fact.

If you would want to date someone who is _constantly_ throwing themselves a pity-party, then yes, this one is a matter of taste...and sure, why not, you can also "assume" I'm judgmental--making a large blanket statement about a person you've never met of talked to--but I really don't think it's having high standards to want to be with someone who takes an active role in their own life, instead of viewing every little thing that doesn't go their way as a slight or roadblock that has been "done unto them" by evil, cosmic forces, or retched, evil people trying to tear them down. It's a very, very negative force to be around and it doesn't help anyone with anything. No good can come from being with someone that lives in this state of mind. I still stand by it being a red flag.


----------



## goldthysanura

If they're possessive of you to the point of not wanting you to spend much time with your friends, that's a big red flag.


----------



## Mystic MagentaRose

The one thing I can't stand is being controlled or being at the end of the punchline. I don't mind jokes, but there is a limit. Everyone has different values and opinions. You should be able to be open with your partner without having them flip out or cause a scene.

It wears people out. I once left a guy cause he wore me out and his anger was out of control. I couldn't put up with it any longer. Nobody should.


----------



## MisterDawin

I have a general question that is starting to bother me. I am an INTP and the girl I am interested in is an INFJ. I told the INFJ I like her 4 years ago and we've been close friends ever since. We didn't start dating due to timing and other stuff in our lives. 

The one situation that is really bothering me is that she went on a travel trip with a guy from her class but she never told me who it was nor the gender. All she said was "I'm going with a friend to this place". I discovered later it was a guy, but she also said that another friend was suppose to come but didn't (this other friend was a girl). 

What's interesting is that she always asks me who I am going with or who did I visit. And yet she usually tells me who she is going to see, EXCEPT for this instance. That's why I find it so perplexing. _Maybe I am overthinking it_. It really does feel she is purposely hiding it this from me because when I asked who did she go with, she didn't really respond and skated around it.

Thoughts anyone? 

PS - I am planning to bring up my feelings again soon.


----------



## Inveniet

Monadnock said:


> Here's the best case scenario: your partner has an excellent relationship with both their biological mother and their biological father, and their biological parents are still in love. The further your partner's family structure deviates from this best case scenario, the more likely it is that they're a mess, an unstable wreck. Proceed at your own risk.


Ah, a unicorn!


----------



## Lonewaer

MisterDawin said:


> I have a general question that is starting to bother me. I am an INTP and the girl I am interested in is an INFJ. I told the INFJ I like her 4 years ago and we've been close friends ever since. We didn't start dating due to timing and other stuff in our lives.
> 
> The one situation that is really bothering me is that she went on a travel trip with a guy from her class but she never told me who it was nor the gender. All she said was "I'm going with a friend to this place". I discovered later it was a guy, but she also said that another friend was suppose to come but didn't (this other friend was a girl).
> 
> What's interesting is that she always asks me who I am going with or who did I visit. And yet she usually tells me who she is going to see, EXCEPT for this instance. That's why I find it so perplexing. _Maybe I am overthinking it_. It really does feel she is purposely hiding it this from me because when I asked who did she go with, she didn't really respond and skated around it.
> 
> Thoughts anyone?
> 
> PS - I am planning to bring up my feelings again soon.


Yep, if that's the only instance she's not telling you, that's an "other guy in the picture" kind of situation.


----------



## Lilsnowy

ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> Ok, then.
> 
> In interpersonal relationships, when someone "assumes" you have already done something/will be ok with something, "Oh, I just thought you would take care of that," or "I thought you'd be ok with it," especially when it comes to relatively major actions that effect both of you, it's that person "assuming," mostly as an afterthought, your thoughts/feelings/wellbeing.
> 
> If my gf walked through the door with a puppy in her arms and was like, "surprise!" and finds me upset, then goes "I thought you'd be happy," that's a cover-up for "I wanted one and just didn't think to ask you," or "I really just didn't care." It's not them having tried to "intuit" how I would feel, which would be different if we had been discussing it, I'd been dropping hints, she knew I loved dogs, and thus decided to surprise me with a puppy. _That_ I would consider as using intuition. The other is selfishness/immaturity that's only after self-gratification. And that behavior/attitude I do think warrants a red flag. That was really what I was getting at.
> 
> Based off the batch of people I've known in rl, (co-workers, friends of friends) who had upwards of 5 exes, and deemed **all** these exes to be "bad" "cold" "heartless" "immature" "crazy" etc. and **accepted no fault, whatsoever, on their behalf** for the relationships ending, when I talked to them about it, were all, for some mysterious reason, single, bitter and emotional unstable.
> 
> My former boss was an incredibly charismatic, charming guy, had 3 ex-wives, said each was a crazy bitch. He left the second one and moved across the country, didn't tell her he was leaving, and that was how he communicated to her he wanted a divorce--mind you, no abuse, he told me he just wanted out. Said he had **no clue** why none of his romantic relationships ever work out. Then I actually met his first wife at a gala--she was _nothing_ like how he painted her. And as far as I know, he's still single and trash talks women as being "illogical freaks" while trying to flirt with 18 year old waitresses. I'd say that's a red flag.
> 
> You can call that "assuming" all you want, but I've known quite a few men and women like him, and as far as I know, they're all still single and bitter about their many exes.
> 
> I do not know of one person right now in my life (even in extended circles) who is in a **happy, healthy** relationship that is **highly obsessed** with a fantasy game/world of some sort. Again, I know many couples who go to anime conventions and like video games that are in good relationships, but I'm talking being immersed in that stuff 24/7, always watching/playing, all they can talk about, etc. And the people that I know who are like that, are, again, all single or in severely miserable relationships and unable to cope with their lives, using the fantasy world for excessive escapism, usually along with drugs while living in their parents' house. And I'm talking late 20s-early 30s age. It's a strong indicator of other problems is what I'm saying.
> 
> "You need someone who is present in their own life in order to build a life with them." That's just a pure fact.
> 
> If you would want to date someone who is _constantly_ throwing themselves a pity-party, then yes, this one is a matter of taste...and sure, why not, you can also "assume" I'm judgmental--making a large blanket statement about a person you've never met of talked to--but I really don't think it's having high standards to want to be with someone who takes an active role in their own life, instead of viewing every little thing that doesn't go their way as a slight or roadblock that has been "done unto them" by evil, cosmic forces, or retched, evil people trying to tear them down. It's a very, very negative force to be around and it doesn't help anyone with anything. No good can come from being with someone that lives in this state of mind. I still stand by it being a red flag.



In my experience, the ones who say they "assumed" you'd take care of something know absolutely that you will not take care of it, or don't want to. They say it as a way to manipulate you. It can be very passive aggressive. They don't want to do it and instead of expressing that honestly, they manipulate others. It can also be a way to gaslight someone, by making them think it was discussed when it never was.

The boss you described with the wife he left without saying a word sounds exactly like a narcissist a friend of mine dated. All his exes were psychos or crazy, but while he was love-bombing one he would leave the other for days or weeks at a time without a word. He "needed his space," and she was so hooked she would take him back. When he wasn't with her he was with someone else. And bet you money, there _was_ abuse in your boss's relationship. There is no such thing as a relationship with someone like you described without emotional abuse. I don't think women even understand what is happening. Narcissists usually become "victims." They "had" to leave their psycho exes. Later my friend found out that the last three women he dated all supposedly "attempted suicide" and he had to go and be by their sides to try to help them. "They didn't call 911, they called me." Your boss was probably into the chase, into winning the woman, and soon after each wedding, he probably started devaluing her and looking for new supply. 

Many people are in bad relationships today or contribute to bad relationships because they have not learned how to properly communicate, have patience, read others, or take the time to get to know someone apart from sex. You're right that the things you mentioned in your post are big red flags.


----------



## darkjoe

I think the most important one from a man pov is her relationship with Dad.


----------



## Chesire Tower

If they are constantly putting your and/or other people down and forcing you to walk on eggshells around them.


----------



## SgtPepper

- they don't seem like they give a fuck about anything and just want things to be "done" for them
- can't admit they're wrong when it's painfully obvious via evidence/facts
- aren't open to dialogue


----------



## Chesire Tower

^
We ought to compare notes. XD


----------



## TheTinyMammoth

You are literally listing my life here! :crushed:


----------



## Zeus

She tries dictating your life early on or finances for that matter.


----------



## Chesire Tower

He continually puts you down, criticizes you; you constantly get the message that your feelings don't matter at all.


----------



## calicobts

-If they get jealous when you hang out with your friends.
-If you tell them "I've never done this [insert sexual act]" and all they say is "Ok" when you're getting physical
- If they're always on their phone and/ or documenting your relationship on social media constantly 
- If they try to ghost you even one time
- If they can't tell you why they like you.
- They don't at least offer to pay for whatever expense when you go on a date/dates
- They aren't Independent/Self-Sufficent 
- They talk about marriage but don't have car/job/not going to college/good family life


----------



## marybluesky

ShowMeWhatUrMadeOf said:


> Some ones that don't always get picked up on, not that they're giant red flags, but still red and flags...
> 
> 1) Assumes a lot. Indicates selfishness and basically acts as a subconscious threat to the partner that if they don't fulfill their very specific expectations, they won't love or accept them.
> 
> 2) How they treat and/or talk about their exes. BIG red flag. If they hate ALL of their guts, and nothing was ever their fault, and they have a ton of them...yeah, not good.
> 
> 3) If they live in "fantasies" i.e. love video/computer games, anime, comic books, WAY too much, not gonna be healthy. You need someone who is present in their own life in order to build a life with them. I think it's a big red flag.
> 
> 4) This one is a personal red flag: pity party-throwers. CAN NOT STAND IT. No "woe is me" bull. No. No. No. Grow up.
> 
> 5) If they're into the "dark arts." Play with ouija boards, crystals, etc. Not only is it insane and creepy, just stay away for many, many reasons. I had a friend who dated a girl that did this stuff, and, shocker! she was a tire-slashing nut job. Big ol' red flag.


 It describes me so much  Maybe 85 percent or more.


----------



## marybluesky

My red flags:
Anger issues, being controlling and possessive, demanding commitment from the start, being interested in the conventional family life.
I should admit that I have difficulty leaving a relationship simply because of spotting the red flags unless they go so much on my nerves that I act impulsively in a way that ends things. And I know that two latter are matters of personal preferences.


----------



## Chesire Tower

^
Yeah, anger issues, controllingness and irrational jealousy - definitely ALL red flags. LOLL

I would also add extreme over-the-top competitiveness to the list.


----------



## ContraIndication

Another, to add to the list.

Love bombing inc. use early use of 'pet' terms. Constant pestering via phone, text, email, social media. RED FLAG!!

Above - happens in the early days, until he gets what he wants. Then you find out he is simultaneously sending the same content to random other women - particularly pleasing for him if the women are/were your friends - greater potential for hurt and drama.


----------



## Hypaspist

If you see she's been out for drinks with the entire audio department and some of the head lighting guys....

Whoever you are sir, I'm just lookin' out for ya bro.


----------



## Chesire Tower

^


----------



## Chesire Tower

They never ever have your back. They are overbearing and relentlessly critical of you. They always take the other person's side against you; even when that person is clearly in the wrong.


----------



## series0

The OP just basically outlines borderline personality disorder. 

What does Red Flag mean? Does it mean that you are ok suddenly to give up on a person because they need help? That sounds like the red flag goes both ways to me ...


----------



## And1

There are many red flags, but one that is important to me is how they handle mistakes. If they struggle to admit mistakes or sincerely apologize for them that is not a person you want to be in a relationship with.


----------



## Chesire Tower

They continually invalidate your feelings/perceptions/experiences - esp. where they're involved.


----------



## Cthulhu And Coffee

So, I'm moreso wondering if the following is a red flag. I've been in a poly relationship since only November. It was an offer made by a friend and her boyfriend -- I was interested in the guy, not so much her, and she knew that while not having feelings for me either. Right off the bat I noticed her getting clingy/them not thinking much about my feelings via her having a problem with he and I being alone in their place together, her sitting shotgun to him in the car, her only wanting she and him to sleep in the same bed, etc. He knew I was irate after her trying to tell us we couldn't be alone in the house, but after all of these other things, I called everything off. I also told them both off for the fact that they were the ones to suggest they wanted a poly thing but weren't including me. I told him clear as day that if they wouldn't want me to tell them they can't do ( ) in their relationship, she shouldn't have the right to dictate what I do in mine.

Now he's telling me he wants to try it again, but that I can't lose my temper because they do these things out of habit from being together for 4 years, and he feels I should be more understanding of that. But I guess I just really don't understand how they couldn't think to include me more than that. I told him that I'm keeping my space until they can tell me for sure that they want a poly thing because I don't trust that they do right now. Just wondering if that was the right thing for me to do/if it's really that they don't care as much as they should, and not just that they're having trouble breaking habits.

I just don't wanna be played for a fool. This is my first poly experience.


----------



## Chesire Tower

Shuyler said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, I'm moreso wondering if the following is a red flag. I've been in a poly relationship since only November. It was an offer made by a friend and her boyfriend -- I was interested in the guy, not so much her, and she knew that while not having feelings for me either. Right off the bat I noticed her getting clingy/them not thinking much about my feelings via her having a problem with he and I being alone in their place together, her sitting shotgun to him in the car, her only wanting she and him to sleep in the same bed, etc. He knew I was irate after her trying to tell us we couldn't be alone in the house, but after all of these other things, I called everything off. I also told them both off for the fact that they were the ones to suggest they wanted a poly thing but weren't including me. I told him clear as day that if they wouldn't want me to tell them they can't do ( ) in their relationship, she shouldn't have the right to dictate what I do in mine.
> 
> Now he's telling me he wants to try it again, but that I can't lose my temper because they do these things out of habit from being together for 4 years, and he feels I should be more understanding of that. But I guess I just really don't understand how they couldn't think to include me more than that. I told him that I'm keeping my space until they can tell me for sure that they want a poly thing because I don't trust that they do right now. Just wondering if that was the right thing for me to do/if it's really that they don't care as much as they should, and not just that they're having trouble breaking habits.
> 
> I just don't wanna be played for a fool. This is my first poly experience.


I think you should trust your instincts; it didn't work out the first time and since nothing is being done on their part to ensure history doesn't repeat itself; I think you're doing the right thing. I don't think that this should all fall on your head; I think that your friend and her bf have some responsibility here too.

This is of course coming from someone who's never been in a poly relationship; so keep that in mind. XD


----------



## Lilsnowy

series0 said:


> The OP just basically outlines borderline personality disorder.
> 
> What does Red Flag mean? Does it mean that you are ok suddenly to give up on a person because they need help? That sounds like the red flag goes both ways to me ...


Yes, you should absolutely feel free to give up on someone you have just started dating who needs help. You are free to give up on someone you have dated for several months or even longer, when you see red flags. You are not required to date someone or invest your time or future in someone who misrepresents themselves or causes you emotional pain, emptiness or confusion.

Red flags are revealing hints of the true character of the person you are starting to date, a character that you would not want to date if given a choice. A person you would not want to be sexually involved with, if given a choice. If they are in the following categories: Sociopaths, alcoholics, drug abusers, super clingy controllers, abusers, child molesters, chronic cheaters, narcissists etc, they will generally hide it from you for some time. And they will not get help nearly 100% of the time. Often, they cause ruin in others' lives, sometimes for generations. 

Dating someone who lies is a deal breaker, but a small lie to someone else might be a red flag that this person lies all the time. If you are dating someone who seems to have everything going for him, but he texts you ten times while you are meeting friends for coffee, it's a red flag. If you make it clear that you don't use your phone during work hours, but he calls or texts you repeatedly because "he can't stop thinking about you," it's a red flag. If he always talks about his crazy exes, its a red flag that he may have been making them crazy with his behavior. 

Anyone with the above issues may need help, but usually won't get it. Don't waste time thinking you're going to help them; walk away.


----------



## series0

Lilsnowy said:


> Yes, you should absolutely feel free to give up on someone you have just started dating who needs help. You are free to give up on someone you have dated for several months or even longer, when you see red flags. You are not required to date someone or invest your time or future in someone who misrepresents themselves or causes you emotional pain, emptiness or confusion.


It's not so much about requirement as it is about trying to help or considering almost anyone worthy of help. The stress you place here seems ... not precisely good or wise, let's say less than best. 



Lilsnowy said:


> Red flags are revealing hints of the true character of the person you are starting to date, a character that you would not want to date if given a choice. A person you would not want to be sexually involved with, if given a choice. If they are in the following categories: Sociopaths, alcoholics, drug abusers, super clingy controllers, abusers, child molesters, chronic cheaters, narcissists etc, they will generally hide it from you for some time. And they will not get help nearly 100% of the time. Often, they cause ruin in others' lives, sometimes for generations.


I know what you mean and in some ways I agree, BUT ... 
You exaggerate on 100%. I will give you credit for the nearly, well done. So many people leave that out. You are careful.

Agreed, often these people cause ruin. The possessors of great Eq must admit into their presence those who do not possess it. Growth has to happen somehow. Change is possible. If no one helps the needy, then your needs should not be helped either. Do you do everything in your life for yourself, without help, that you have come to need and want? Are you self-sufficient? Granted these are dark and tough cases in dire need maybe of some professional help at least congruently with their attempting a real relationship. But they are us and we are them. No one is self sufficient and everyone needs love. Not your task? OK. Would you agree that task is someone's fair task? Society even? What then? Who is the martyr to that cause? Who cuddles that which is razor sharp?



Lilsnowy said:


> Dating someone who lies is a deal breaker,


Everyone lies, especially those that lie to themselves that they do not lie.



Lilsnowy said:


> but a small lie to someone else might be a red flag that this person lies all the time. If you are dating someone who seems to have everything going for him, but he texts you ten times while you are meeting friends for coffee, it's a red flag. If you make it clear that you don't use your phone during work hours, but he calls or texts you repeatedly because "he can't stop thinking about you," it's a red flag. If he always talks about his crazy exes, its a red flag that he may have been making them crazy with his behavior.


Intolerance of weakness is an equivalent red flag to all those you mention, perhaps even worse. This weakness in you would, by your own analogous judgement, if fair, result in others, most others, rejecting you. How do you answer that? Would only a feels-based sappy fool take you on? Maybe another very critical person? If this advice you give to abandon people who show red flags is wise, I think we would all or should all be abandoned. I know of NO ONE, not one single person, who has not shown a fair number of red flags. If they have not, then knowing them, I can predict and uncover their red flags. We all have them.

I am not saying there are not egregious cases that have to be put aside in terms of making your own way in life. What I am saying is that looking for specifics and giving up is a J order failure of moral effort in many cases. If the lion's share of your connection with a person is there, expending great effort to help them grow and overcome a red flag is actually wise and worthy.



Lilsnowy said:


> Anyone with the above issues may need help, but usually won't get it. Don't waste time thinking you're going to help them; walk away.


This is a cowardly and undesirous sentiment. It is harshly judgmental and almost has to be hypocritical therefore. We are all weak and damaged goods in some way. If no one will take the time to try to help us, then everyone ends up starved for love and the possibility of growth is vastly diminished.


----------



## Lilsnowy

series0 said:


> It's not so much about requirement as it is about trying to help or considering almost anyone worthy of help. The stress you place here seems ... not precisely good or wise, let's say less than best.
> 
> 
> I know what you mean and in some ways I agree, BUT ...
> You exaggerate on 100%. I will give you credit for the nearly, well done. So many people leave that out. You are careful.
> 
> Agreed, often these people cause ruin. The possessors of great Eq must admit into their presence those who do not possess it. Growth has to happen somehow. Change is possible. If no one helps the needy, then your needs should not be helped either. Do you do everything in your life for yourself, without help, that you have come to need and want? Are you self-sufficient? Granted these are dark and tough cases in dire need maybe of some professional help at least congruently with their attempting a real relationship. But they are us and we are them. No one is self sufficient and everyone needs love. Not your task? OK. Would you agree that task is someone's fair task? Society even? What then? Who is the martyr to that cause? Who cuddles that which is razor sharp?
> 
> 
> Everyone lies, especially those that lie to themselves that they do not lie.
> 
> 
> Intolerance of weakness is an equivalent red flag to all those you mention, perhaps even worse. This weakness in you would, by your own analogous judgement, if fair, result in others, most others, rejecting you. How do you answer that? Would only a feels-based sappy fool take you on? Maybe another very critical person? If this advice you give to abandon people who show red flags is wise, I think we would all or should all be abandoned. I know of NO ONE, not one single person, who has not shown a fair number of red flags. If they have not, then knowing them, I can predict and uncover their red flags. We all have them.
> 
> I am not saying there are not egregious cases that have to be put aside in terms of making your own way in life. What I am saying is that looking for specifics and giving up is a J order failure of moral effort in many cases. If the lion's share of your connection with a person is there, expending great effort to help them grow and overcome a red flag is actually wise and worthy.
> 
> 
> This is a cowardly and undesirous sentiment. It is harshly judgmental and almost has to be hypocritical therefore. We are all weak and damaged goods in some way. If no one will take the time to try to help us, then everyone ends up starved for love and the possibility of growth is vastly diminished.


I said that "nearly 100% of the time" disordered personalities do not get help because it implies that sometimes they do. I think we agree on that. It's rare, however. Regardless, it is the individual's right to decide if he or she can be in a relationship with someone who is exhibiting destructive, disordered, desperate, or addictive traits. At any time we are free to decide who we will have relationships with, whether there are huge red flags or no red flags. 

Did you know that truly destructive personalities _depend_ on your desire to help, to be the one who will love them, so they can continue to get what they want? Often alcoholics continue in their addiction for years because the people around them were loving them and rewarding their dysfunction with kindness. Often for a disordered person to seek legitimate help it takes relationship (after relationship) _ending_ due to their behavior. Often that doesn't do it though, not for the truly destructive and dangerous ones. It's just easier to find someone new to target.

By ignoring red flags, many people find themselves in relationships where they put in the "lion's share" of effort, while the other person continues on a destructive path, causing outrageous amounts of trauma, confusion and hopelessness. Withholding judgment can put you at risk. You should never feel guilty or in the wrong for judging a person or situation as bad for you.


----------



## Morpheus83

I had to end a ‘friendship’ with a dishonest emotional vampire who tried to use me for sex while stringing me along. He’d promised that we’d be able to talk to work things out, but he always had an excuse whenever I confronted him. He failed to tell me he was being transferred interstate for work when he asked me over for booty call (thank goodness I declined). He told me this only about a month afterwards when he stopped returning my messages, and I gave him an ultimatum. Then he tried to appeal to my sympathy by blaming everything on work stress and his diagnosed ‘depression’. I eventually asked him about his motive for inviting me over for a booty call that night, but he refused to explain himself and blamed me while saying ‘Enough is enough’, that he was ‘beyond explaining himself’, and how he always acted with ‘integrity’ as well as the ‘nest of intentions’. How is it possible to be beyond explaining yourself when you never did explain anything in the first place? I answered all of the questions he’d asked of me, but he never bothered to answer any of my important ones. And he’d claimed that our communication was ‘dear’ to him. So when I eventually broke off the ‘friendship’, he tried to blame me by saying he thought ‘better’ of me—thought I was more ‘sympathetic’ and ‘understanding’. I’m not a free therapist and sex toy to be used at somebody’s convenience. And depression doesn’t make someone continually lie to cover up their part in a conflict. So many red flags here. And he never had his values and priorities right in the first place by implying he was available for a close relationship/friendship when he wasn’t. That’s dishonest. And blaming bad behaviours on depression to dodge responsibility? That’s low and manipulative.


----------



## Chesire Tower

I know this is for relationship isssues but much of what has been posted is also applicable to friendships as welll.


Be leary if they act like their your best friend/true love/soul mate/sister|brother; too fast.

If they have any serious mental issues.

If they make vicious unfounded accusations about others, and refuse to take any responsibility for their contributions to any failed friendships/relationships.

If they ever threaten you with physical/mental/emotional/ etc. harm.

If they fly into insane rages - esp. drected at you.

Run, run far away and never look back.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Morpheus83 said:


> I had to end a ‘friendship’ with a dishonest emotional vampire who tried to use me for sex while stringing me along. He’d promised that we’d be able to talk to work things out, but he always had an excuse whenever I confronted him. He failed to tell me he was being transferred interstate for work when he asked me over for booty call (thank goodness I declined). He told me this only about a month afterwards when he stopped returning my messages, and I gave him an ultimatum. Then he tried to appeal to my sympathy by blaming everything on work stress and his diagnosed ‘depression’. I eventually asked him about his motive for inviting me over for a booty call that night, but he refused to explain himself and blamed me while saying ‘Enough is enough’, that he was ‘beyond explaining himself’, and how he always acted with ‘integrity’ as well as the ‘nest of intentions’. How is it possible to be beyond explaining yourself when you never did explain anything in the first place? I answered all of the questions he’d asked of me, but he never bothered to answer any of my important ones. And he’d claimed that our communication was ‘dear’ to him. So when I eventually broke off the ‘friendship’, he tried to blame me by saying he thought ‘better’ of me—thought I was more ‘sympathetic’ and ‘understanding’. I’m not a free therapist and sex toy to be used at somebody’s convenience. And depression doesn’t make someone continually lie to cover up their part in a conflict. So many red flags here. And he never had his values and priorities right in the first place by implying he was available for a close relationship/friendship when he wasn’t. That’s dishonest. And blaming bad behaviours on depression to dodge responsibility? That’s low and manipulative.


Yes. So many red flags. Gaslighting. Diversion. Lying. Booty calls. Manipulative shaming/guilting. Victim/I'm so misunderstood game. You are wise to stop seeing him.


----------



## Morpheus83

Lilsnowy said:


> Yes. So many red flags. Gaslighting. Diversion. Lying. Booty calls. Manipulative shaming/guilting. Victim/I'm so misunderstood game. You are wise to stop seeing him.


The scary thing is that this person used to be a child welfare social worker (now management consultant). He seems to know *exactly* which buttons to push to try to get his own way. The gaslighting, double standards, insincere 'praise', etc. all seem to point to a certain kind of emotional abuse I'd associate with narcissists and possibly psychopaths. It's scary how this person with this kind of personality can deal with vulnerable groups/people. I suspect he likes the control and attention, and 'dependent' people are an easy source of narcissistic supply.


----------



## Lilsnowy

Morpheus83 said:


> The scary thing is that this person used to be a child welfare social worker (now management consultant). He seems to know *exactly* which buttons to push to try to get his own way. The gaslighting, double standards, insincere 'praise', etc. all seem to point to a certain kind of emotional abuse I'd associate with narcissists and possibly psychopaths. It's scary how this person with this kind of personality can deal with vulnerable groups/people. I suspect he likes the control and attention, and 'dependent' people are an easy source of narcissistic supply.


You might be right. Narcissists like to hear that they are heroes, helpful, awesome, wonderful, super intuitive, great listeners etc and they are extremely skilled at impression management (looking good to those who don't know them well.)


----------



## series0

Lilsnowy said:


> I said that "nearly 100% of the time" disordered personalities do not get help because it implies that sometimes they do. I think we agree on that. It's rare, however. Regardless, it is the individual's right to decide if he or she can be in a relationship with someone who is exhibiting destructive, disordered, desperate, or addictive traits. At any time we are free to decide who we will have relationships with, whether there are huge red flags or no red flags.


Granted, yes! I just wanted to point out that everyone had red flags, so if you say no red flags, you actually exclude everyone and everyone excludes you. The defining characteristic of a relationship is love in spite of their red flags.

The whole subject surrounding red flags is a proposition that DOES NOT WORK. That is the suggestion that love is love because of no red flags. Because of love, IS NOT love.



Lilsnowy said:


> Did you know that truly destructive personalities _depend_ on your desire to help, to be the one who will love them, so they can continue to get what they want? Often alcoholics continue in their addiction for years because the people around them were loving them and rewarding their dysfunction with kindness. Often for a disordered person to seek legitimate help it takes relationship (after relationship) _ending_ due to their behavior. Often that doesn't do it though, not for the truly destructive and dangerous ones. It's just easier to find someone new to target.
> 
> By ignoring red flags, many people find themselves in relationships where they put in the "lion's share" of effort, while the other person continues on a destructive path, causing outrageous amounts of trauma, confusion and hopelessness. Withholding judgment can put you at risk. You should never feel guilty or in the wrong for judging a person or situation as bad for you.


Indeed, you must also love yourself despite your own red flags. This proves the point of love again, in spite of, not because of. You cannot love successfully because of, because then a lot of us would be unworthy and the truth of love is that everyone is worthy. Love is love in spite of.

Again, granted, we use wisdom to decide what to take on as a burden. Some red flags in ourselves and others are those we can tolerate. We may be uniquely suited to handle a red flag that others cannot and so loving a person that has that one is our joy/burden.

You are right to love the self enough to defend it from destruction by the other if you cannot handle their red flags by leaving, but, my caution is to try, and not to be lazy, and to love; do not just see a red flag and bolt.


----------



## Zeus

This is equitable to all relationships, things seem excessively one sided I’d move on. No point playing that game.


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## Lilsnowy

series0 said:


> Granted, yes! I just wanted to point out that everyone had red flags, so if you say no red flags, you actually exclude everyone and everyone excludes you. The defining characteristic of a relationship is love in spite of their red flags.
> 
> The whole subject surrounding red flags is a proposition that DOES NOT WORK. That is the suggestion that love is love because of no red flags. Because of love, IS NOT love.
> 
> Indeed, you must also love yourself despite your own red flags. This proves the point of love again, in spite of, not because of. You cannot love successfully because of, because then a lot of us would be unworthy and the truth of love is that everyone is worthy. Love is love in spite of.
> 
> Again, granted, we use wisdom to decide what to take on as a burden. Some red flags in ourselves and others are those we can tolerate. We may be uniquely suited to handle a red flag that others cannot and so loving a person that has that one is our joy/burden.
> 
> You are right to love the self enough to defend it from destruction by the other if you cannot handle their red flags by leaving, but, my caution is to try, and not to be lazy, and to love; do not just see a red flag and bolt.


You said:*The whole subject surrounding red flags is a proposition that DOES NOT WORK. That is the suggestion that love is love because of no red flags. Because of love, IS NOT love.* It sounds like you're confusing your own integrity or ability to love, with the fact that someone else's may be in question. Red flags absolutely do work _when we pay attention to them._ They let us know we might be in emotional, physical or spiritual danger. 

This is something I learned long ago about dating or family relationships: Don't be so determined to be "loving" that you sacrifice your life to someone else's sin and selfishness. Your love is not going to change a sociopath. It is better not to get involved in the first place. In a family, you may have to avoid them too. So when you feel confusion or a subtle warning inside, listen to it.

You said:* "everyone has red flags."* We all may have idiosyncrasies or vulnerabilities. But often, healthy people do not exhibit traits or behaviors which inspire inner promptings, like dread or repeated confusion. But even if an idiosyncrasy turns you off, you have the right to back out. It isn't whether you are suited to "handle a red flag." *Red flags mean "proceed with caution:" Get to know this person a little better before getting more deeply involved." * Step back a little and evaluate.

What about "deal-breakers?" If someone you are dating were engaging in a deal-breaker, would you feel free to back out? What would prevent you from standing on your own standard for what is right for you? Maybe you don't have deal breakers. Do you have boundaries, meaning things you won't do or ways you won't live? 

Red flags are often ignored because we "don't want to judge" or because we don't want to say we didn't try or maybe because we are still in infatuation-land and don't understand what we are seeing. If you see the signs early, you can get out before lasting harm is done.

I'm curious why you consider it lazy to stop dating a narcissist or a compulsive liar, or drug addict?


----------



## series0

Lilsnowy said:


> You said:*The whole subject surrounding red flags is a proposition that DOES NOT WORK. That is the suggestion that love is love because of no red flags. Because of love, IS NOT love.* It sounds like you're confusing your own integrity or ability to love, with the fact that someone else's may be in question. Red flags absolutely do work _when we pay attention to them._ They let us know we might be in emotional, physical or spiritual danger.


So, you and I agree, we just have different breaking points. I do charge that it is mostly, like many things in this generation, a matter of lack of fortitude and integrity on the part of the supposed healthier party that is the issue.

Can you not see that if supposedly healthy people abandon the treatment and assistance of the unhealthy that where that line is drawn ultimately keeps getting shallower and shallower? Your philosophy literally leads to everyone for themselves. It is the trend. It is understandable. And, it is fairly morally weak.



Lilsnowy said:


> This is something I learned long ago about dating or family relationships: Don't be so determined to be "loving" that you sacrifice your life to someone else's sin and selfishness. Your love is not going to change a sociopath. It is better not to get involved in the first place. In a family, you may have to avoid them too. So when you feel confusion or a subtle warning inside, listen to it.


We can and I have changed sociopaths. It is a matter of skill, holding the line, and determination; all part of love.



Lilsnowy said:


> You said:* "everyone has red flags."* We all may have idiosyncrasies or vulnerabilities. But often, healthy people do not exhibit traits or behaviors which inspire inner promptings, like dread or repeated confusion. But even if an idiosyncrasy turns you off, you have the right to back out. It isn't whether you are suited to "handle a red flag." *Red flags mean "proceed with caution:" Get to know this person a little better before getting more deeply involved." * Step back a little and evaluate.


To be honest with you most normal people to me just have a lot more idiosyncrasies as opposed to one big red flag. Granted there are some deeply wounded people, even with more than 1 red flag and serious issue. 

What I really hear you saying is that you do not have the energy and or skill to deal with these people and you prefer to let that be someone else's problem. But a former version of you, a more loving child-like version, knew to try and help. I love that earlier version. I know it's still you. Don't give up on people. But the hold-the-line part of what I said earlier means you DO INDEED have to protect yourself against even your relationship partners in all cases. Leave yourself only tentatively vulnerable. I leave myself mostly just slightly monetarily and fairly strongly emotionally vulnerable to women in past relationships. So far, zero have had financial discipline and i have dated quite a bit. Keep in mind, I mean financial discipline with MY money, which they should consider somewhat as theirs but like their own be careful. They don't. I DO NOT generalize this to all women. The emotional vulnerability vis a vis the investment in the other person, letting yourself love them, is precisely the tendency to let truth be the natural state. Truth is you are them and they are you. We all are each other. So their problems become your problems if you are doing love correctly. Let me know when you intend to give up on all your problems because you have a red flag? I KNOW, BELIEVE ME, I know ... I am asking for a fairly high functioning person when I say this. .... Yes, I am. That is what love is.



Lilsnowy said:


> What about "deal-breakers?" If someone you are dating were engaging in a deal-breaker, would you feel free to back out?


Feel free yes. The burden of choice is on us all, we have free will. But love and the good chooses to see the other as the self. The preferences connection then is respected. That means what draws you to them is the signal. Respect for that involves then going through the paces. Granted there are some actual red flags that occur when you can no longer protect yourself by yourself from the other person's issues. If you need society's help, that is a place where I can almost agree that the relationship has to change. It still doesn't mean abandonment. But moving on with the rest of your life is advisable.



Lilsnowy said:


> What would prevent you from standing on your own standard for what is right for you? Maybe you don't have deal breakers. Do you have boundaries, meaning things you won't do or ways you won't live?


Morality is objective. What is right for me is what is right for everyone, whether they realize it or not. It doesn't mean I am right about every little aspect of moral truth or that they are. But we can ONLY relate to each other if morality is objective. Otherwise there is no means of determining what progress is. If you align or approach an objective standard you can measure. If two people are approaching their subjective standards there is no standard and thus measurements do not matter.



Lilsnowy said:


> Red flags are often ignored because we "don't want to judge" or because we don't want to say we didn't try or maybe because we are still in infatuation-land and don't understand what we are seeing. If you see the signs early, you can get out before lasting harm is done.
> 
> I'm curious why you consider it lazy to stop dating a narcissist or a compulsive liar, or drug addict?


I consider it lazy or incompetent because it is. It doesn't matter that moral action is very hard. I agree. It is hard. It's the hardest thing in the world. But it's the only worthy thing.

Do I JUST fault people for their immoral failures? No, that IS NOT a red flag. That is because everyone has them, many or few, little or large. Red flag itself is just an arbitrary limit, a subjective cop-out line, for each person. 

I sound judgmental and such. It's true, judgement is in what I say. But there is still love as well and I am just as guilty in my own ways. I suppose the point of all of this is the same generic lesson as 'take the log from your own eye before you argue about the splinter in someone else's'. It's something like that. It's 'Love your neighbor as yourself' as well.


----------



## Lilsnowy

series0 said:


> So, you and I agree, we just have different breaking points. I do charge that it is mostly, like many things in this generation, a matter of lack of fortitude and integrity on the part of the supposed healthier party that is the issue.
> 
> Can you not see that if supposedly healthy people abandon the treatment and assistance of the unhealthy that where that line is drawn ultimately keeps getting shallower and shallower? Your philosophy literally leads to everyone for themselves. It is the trend. It is understandable. And, it is fairly morally weak.
> 
> 
> We can and I have changed sociopaths. It is a matter of skill, holding the line, and determination; all part of love.
> 
> 
> To be honest with you most normal people to me just have a lot more idiosyncrasies as opposed to one big red flag. Granted there are some deeply wounded people, even with more than 1 red flag and serious issue.
> 
> What I really hear you saying is that you do not have the energy and or skill to deal with these people and you prefer to let that be someone else's problem. But a former version of you, a more loving child-like version, knew to try and help. I love that earlier version. I know it's still you. Don't give up on people. But the hold-the-line part of what I said earlier means you DO INDEED have to protect yourself against even your relationship partners in all cases. Leave yourself only tentatively vulnerable. I leave myself mostly just slightly monetarily and fairly strongly emotionally vulnerable to women in past relationships. So far, zero have had financial discipline and i have dated quite a bit. Keep in mind, I mean financial discipline with MY money, which they should consider somewhat as theirs but like their own be careful. They don't. I DO NOT generalize this to all women. The emotional vulnerability vis a vis the investment in the other person, letting yourself love them, is precisely the tendency to let truth be the natural state. Truth is you are them and they are you. We all are each other. So their problems become your problems if you are doing love correctly. Let me know when you intend to give up on all your problems because you have a red flag? I KNOW, BELIEVE ME, I know ... I am asking for a fairly high functioning person when I say this. .... Yes, I am. That is what love is.
> 
> 
> Feel free yes. The burden of choice is on us all, we have free will. But love and the good chooses to see the other as the self. The preferences connection then is respected. That means what draws you to them is the signal. Respect for that involves then going through the paces. Granted there are some actual red flags that occur when you can no longer protect yourself by yourself from the other person's issues. If you need society's help, that is a place where I can almost agree that the relationship has to change. It still doesn't mean abandonment. But moving on with the rest of your life is advisable.
> 
> 
> Morality is objective. What is right for me is what is right for everyone, whether they realize it or not. It doesn't mean I am right about every little aspect of moral truth or that they are. But we can ONLY relate to each other if morality is objective. Otherwise there is no means of determining what progress is. If you align or approach an objective standard you can measure. If two people are approaching their subjective standards there is no standard and thus measurements do not matter.
> 
> 
> I consider it lazy or incompetent because it is. It doesn't matter that moral action is very hard. I agree. It is hard. It's the hardest thing in the world. But it's the only worthy thing.
> 
> Do I JUST fault people for their immoral failures? No, that IS NOT a red flag. That is because everyone has them, many or few, little or large. Red flag itself is just an arbitrary limit, a subjective cop-out line, for each person.
> 
> I sound judgmental and such. It's true, judgement is in what I say. But there is still love as well and I am just as guilty in my own ways. I suppose the point of all of this is the same generic lesson as 'take the log from your own eye before you argue about the splinter in someone else's'. It's something like that. It's 'Love your neighbor as yourself' as well.


Yes, love your neighbor as yourself. Take the log from your own eye so you can see to remove the speck from your brother's. Great, great commands from the Lord. The bible also says: *But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!* A good friend dated a narcissist who quoted from the bible while doing the most unholy things you can imagine to his partners. He didn't believe in God the but used the bible to manipulate others. 

I have said repeatedly is that we have the freedom to do what we feel is right and healthy. We have the freedom to act on red flags. We do not have to stay with dangerous or unfaithful partners. When you see potential problems you should pay attention and evaluate. You have the freedom to stay or to leave. The fact that disordered people usually don't change and in fact escalate in relationships is a common experience. Nearly every post in this thread reveals that the red flags meant much worse problems later. You are choosing to ignore this and to fault the ones who have posted here. 

Since you seem to be purposely misconstruing my meaning, maybe you have an agenda that goes beyond the scope of the conversation? Maybe that's why you are baiting. I don't know that for sure; I know that I have explained the purpose and use of red flags--which should be obvious from the thread--repeatedly in my posts to you, while you become more accusatory and derogatory in each post. 

I have to consider that you are trolling. (A red flag) Please don't engage with me again.


----------



## series0

Lilsnowy said:


> I have to consider that you are trolling. (A red flag) Please don't engage with me again.


Whole love includes all virtues, even self-sacrifice, crusades for whole love, etc. That is what I am saying. Giving up on others is not entirely moral.

I can respect your request to not engage, if and only if, you do not accuse me of anything when you make that request. I will not let an improper accusation stand.


----------



## Lilsnowy

series0 said:


> Whole love includes all virtues, even self-sacrifice, crusades for whole love, etc. That is what I am saying. Giving up on others is not entirely moral.
> 
> I can respect your request to not engage, if and only if, you do not accuse me of anything when you make that request. I will not let an improper accusation stand.


I want no further discussion and you do not make the terms.


----------



## Morpheus83

Someone who expects or demands *unconditional* love/friendship right off the bat. Sorry, but this person probably has a distorted understanding of love and agape. In the worst case scenario, it’s a ploy used by a narcissist to trick others into entering a one-sided relationship while insuring himself with a guilt-tripping defence (‘But you agreed that love should be unconditional! It doesn’t matter if I yelled at you just then or broke my promise!!’). Even if you’re in an abusive relationship/friendship and choose to leave, you can still ‘love’ the person in an agapeic sense—you bear no malice and still acknowledge the abuser as a flawed human with dignity. Why should the obligation of agapeic love also extend to the obligation of romantic love that’s defined by social mores and one party’s self-serving expectations? Is it really 'loving' to the other person if you have to guilt-trip him/her into staying in a one-sided friendship/relationship?


----------



## Lilsnowy

Morpheus83 said:


> Someone who expects or demands *unconditional* love/friendship right off the bat. Sorry, but this person probably has a distorted understanding of love and agape. In the worst case scenario, it’s a ploy used by a narcissist to trick others into entering a one-sided relationship while insuring himself with a guilt-tripping defence (‘But you agreed that love should be unconditional! It doesn’t matter if I yelled at you just then or broke my promise!!’). Even if you’re in an abusive relationship/friendship and choose to leave, you can still ‘love’ the person in an agapeic sense—you bear no malice and still acknowledge the abuser as a flawed human with dignity. Why should the obligation of agapeic love also extend to the obligation of romantic love that’s defined by social mores and one party’s self-serving expectations? Is it really 'loving' to the other person if you have to guilt-trip him/her into staying in a one-sided friendship/relationship?


It's so ironic that he expects unconditional love while not being capable of love himself. You will find over time that while you constantly compromise, they never do, except with their integrity. I agree with agape love. In my old church we had a saying-- "Sometimes you have to pray and walk away." 

A friend of mine said that her previous partner old her that "No one leaves _him_. _He_ always leaves." He was the most caring, romantic man in the world in the beginning, except that he was having a hard time getting his old girlfriends to leave him alone. (red flag) He said there was something about him that women couldn't let go and he couldn't figure it out. (red flag plus, gag) Well, after repeated infidelities and lies, she left him. He has tried every ploy under the sun to get her to respond to him, (while dating other women.) She has no contact.

Here's a red flag: I don't recall if I have mentioned it on this thread, but when they offer you "total transparency" into their email accounts or other social media because they are, "such good guys who have nothing to hide," don't buy it! They offer you their email passwords or bank passwords for one reason only: to manipulate you into giving them _yours_. "It's only fair, right?" Do not accept theirs or give yours under any circumstances! As soon as they have yours, they will change their passwords, and use your private messages against you, even making copies to send to other people or belittle you. Some will steal your money. I had never heard of this until a woman I knew called me hysterical because this had just happened to her. He had pushed and escalated until she broke and gave him her passwords. We rushed and within minutes she had changed all the passwords so he never had a chance to access the accounts. She has nothing to do with him today. 

Red flags are there for a reason.


----------



## Morpheus83

@Lilsnowy

That sounds scary, but not too surprising—somebody exploiting your belief in trust and fairness in order to con you into giving personal details that can be used against you. It’s definitely suspicious when somebody sounds too determined and insistent in proving s/he is ‘good’ and ‘open’—maybe too fast and too soon. Maybe the only way to stay safe online and financially is to make sure certain details are never disclosed—no matter how much you think you can trust the person. If the person tries to guilt-trip you for not trusting him/her enough with certain personal details, then that’s very fishy. I don’t think that ‘trust’ should entail a complete absence of boundaries and ‘self’ in a relationship. Maybe it’s also about having a clear sense of boundaries and self before entering a relationship or a close friendship, so you can’t be used in ways you might’ve never imagined. In one sense, I ended up making that mistake with that ‘friend’ because I’d assumed he wanted a fair and equal friendship/relationship. But from his actions, his idea of ‘unconditional’ love/acceptance simply means ‘I call the shots, and you should always put my needs and feelings first. If you don’t give up everything for me, then you’re being selfish! It doesn’t matter if I break my promises or say/do hurtful things, because you’re supposed to accept me unconditionally. You should already know and believe that I’m a good guy, and I don’t have to prove it.’


----------



## Lilsnowy

Morpheus83 said:


> @Lilsnowy
> 
> That sounds scary, but not too surprising—somebody exploiting your belief in trust and fairness in order to con you into giving personal details that can be used against you. It’s definitely suspicious when somebody sounds too determined and insistent in proving s/he is ‘good’ and ‘open’—maybe too fast and too soon. Maybe the only way to stay safe online and financially is to make sure certain details are never disclosed—no matter how much you think you can trust the person. If the person tries to guilt-trip you for not trusting him/her enough with certain personal details, then that’s very fishy. I don’t think that ‘trust’ should entail a complete absence of boundaries and ‘self’ in a relationship. Maybe it’s also about having a clear sense of boundaries and self before entering a relationship or a close friendship, so you can’t be used in ways you might’ve never imagined. In one sense, I ended up making that mistake with that ‘friend’ because I’d assumed he wanted a fair and equal friendship/relationship. But from his actions, his idea of ‘unconditional’ love/acceptance simply means ‘I call the shots, and you should always put my needs and feelings first. If you don’t give up everything for me, then you’re being selfish! It doesn’t matter if I break my promises or say/do hurtful things, because you’re supposed to accept me unconditionally. You should already know and believe that I’m a good guy, and I don’t have to prove it.’


I agree. I think boundaries have more to do with what _you_ can live with, than what you expect from them. Normal people take a step back when told no; they don't escalate or manipulate to get their way. 

Here is an example from something I mentioned in an earlier post. If you text me, and I don't reply, there is a reason. I might be at work, or having fun. ( I never text when I'm doing something with friends or family, unless it's my child.) Maybe I didn't hear the message alert. Whatever my reason, don't berate me because you couldn't reach me. 

Another red flag: My experience has been that any time a man has told me he is a good guy when we're getting to know each other... absolutely every time, he has proved to be the opposite. It is a HUGE red flag for a man to say he is a "good guy," or claim that he is so trustworthy, giving, or special, that he "deserves" access to your private information, diaries, account info, private messages, friends or family. 

I hope anyone reading this thread will learn so they can spot trouble early.


----------



## Morpheus83

Lilsnowy said:


> I agree. I think boundaries have more to do with what _you_ can live with, than what you expect from them. Normal people take a step back when told no; they don't escalate or manipulate to get their way.
> 
> Here is an example from something I mentioned in an earlier post. If you text me, and I don't reply, there is a reason. I might be at work, or having fun. ( I never text when I'm doing something with friends or family, unless it's my child.) Maybe I didn't hear the message alert. Whatever my reason, don't berate me because you couldn't reach me.
> 
> Another red flag: My experience has been that any time a man has told me he is a good guy when we're getting to know each other... absolutely every time, he has proved to be the opposite. It is a HUGE red flag for a man to say he is a "good guy," or claim that he is so trustworthy, giving, or special, that he "deserves" access to your private information, diaries, account info, private messages, friends or family.
> 
> I hope anyone reading this thread will learn so they can spot trouble early.


Ugh. It's funny, really. The guy I told you about also told me he 'doesn't play games'. And what happens when I ask for a direct and honest response? He avoids answering my questions by claiming something like how he never 'meant' to do this or that when I point out his behaviours. And that's not counting the blaming, gaslighting, etc.. He tried to twist things around by accusing me of trying to 'monopolise' his time when I angrily confronted him in a series of messages for not being entirely honest with me. But earlier he had the nerve to ask me if I was free to drop everything for a booty call at his convenience. It's like his time and needs are more important than mine, but anything I ask that's important to me but doesn't interest him is seen as an 'inconvenience'.


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## Lilsnowy

Morpheus83 said:


> Ugh. It's funny, really. The guy I told you about also told me he 'doesn't play games'. And what happens when I ask for a direct and honest response? He avoids answering my questions by claiming something like how he never 'meant' to do this or that when I point out his behaviours. And that's not counting the blaming, gaslighting, etc.. He tried to twist things around by accusing me of trying to 'monopolise' his time when I angrily confronted him in a series of messages for not being entirely honest with me. But earlier he had the nerve to ask me if I was free to drop everything for a booty call at his convenience. It's like his time and needs are more important than mine, but anything I ask that's important to me but doesn't interest him is seen as an 'inconvenience'.


Well his time is more important!  Joke! Yes. When someone refuses to see you as an equal, with equal freedom and an equal right to respect, probably should break all contact. 

Actually, for anyone here who can't seem to shake a narcissist (or someone with narcissistic traits) or if you're thinking of going back with someone that you know is bad for you, try reading articles on going "No Contact." To be free from abuse, you have to close every channel of communication. Absolutely every one.


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## Rventurelli

I would say _in my experience_ the five red flags that get me running are:

I- Being a *single mother*;

II- Having _more than two cats_;

III- Having _very strong_ opinions or world views that differ from yours (for example, I am spiritual but not religious. I am okay with atheists, but both the extremely religious and the militant atheists are in the "no go" zone for me)

IV- Saying _every_ men she has ever been with was a horrible person and therefore not admitting _any_ fault in anything in the relationships.

V- Showing to be depressive _very early on_. I tried many, many times to be the knight and shining armour of those and misery surely loves company -- they do _nothing_ to improve themselves and if you try to force them to do things you are sure would help out they get extremely angry at you so over time you get so frustrated with the lack of progress that you give up.


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## .17485

If they ask if you want to be more than friends after two dates is that a red flag? 

What about saying they love you within dating them for two months? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nep2une

Tega1 said:


> What about saying they love you within dating them for two months?


Possibly. That or they're 15. Or they handle a relationship like they're a 15-year-old. 

If they propose marriage after only 6 months of dating, the "Nope!" intensifies. 

I tend to assume they're either immature or bad news if they're rushing a relationship that much.


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## Rventurelli

Tega1 said:


> If they ask if you want to be more than friends after two dates is that a red flag?
> 
> What about saying they love you within dating them for two months?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


_Not sure_ if it is a red flag. That would depend for me on how old they are, how many relationships they had and _religious views_.


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## Senah

nep2une said:


> Possibly. That or they're 15. Or they handle a relationship like they're a 15-year-old.
> 
> If they propose marriage after only 6 months of dating, the "Nope!" intensifies.
> 
> I tend to assume they're either immature or bad news if they're rushing a relationship that much.


I don't know - I don't see this specifically as a red flag. I think it can be immature to be in a relationship for 1 year and feel compelled to then say "I love you" and then after another year move in and then get engaged, etc. mostly because you have invested that much time and society tells you to. A lot of successful marriages have started with people just instantly connecting, saying I love you, and getting married. A lot of failed ones have been between people who were together a long time, waited, then married. The inverse is also true, but I don't think there is a hard, fast rule that can be applied. It depends on the person and the situation.


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## Abbaladon Arc V

aerorobyn said:


> if he asks you to marry him after being together only one month.  True story. It happens.


xddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
lol


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## Rventurelli

Senah said:


> I don't know - I don't see this specifically as a red flag. I think it can be immature to be in a relationship for 1 year and feel compelled to then say "I love you" and then after another year move in and then get engaged, etc. mostly because you have invested that much time and society tells you to. A lot of successful marriages have started with people just instantly connecting, saying I love you, and getting married. A lot of failed ones have been between people who were together a long time, waited, then married. The inverse is also true, but I don't think there is a hard, fast rule that can be applied. It depends on the person and the situation.


I agree with you there. While _I do not believe in love at first sight_ -- I hardly believe in love at all, there can be cases where the connection is _so strong_ that in the space of a month one can safely embark in a relationship..


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## Abbaladon Arc V

I'm french 

What are a red flag ? thanks


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## Dalien

Abbaladon Arc V said:


> I'm french
> 
> What are a red flag ? thanks


 Red is a vibrant color and catches your attention. A red flag is a warning to pay attention that there may be something not good or wrong.


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## Wisteria

Rventurelli said:


> I would say _in my experience_ the five red flags that get me running are:
> 
> I- Being a *single mother*;
> 
> II- Having _more than two cats_;


No offence but these two make you sound like a judgemental snob.


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## Kenkao

Here in our country, we value our families and therefore, guys usually (not always) introduce their partners or even those they're courting, to their parents.

A huge red flag that a partner is cheating or has intentions of cheating is when he doesn't introduce you to his parents or vice versa. 

For the record, my mom, when she was still alive, knew all my boyfriends and even some of my suitors (only those that i entertained or explicitly showed interest) and i valued my mom's opinion a lot. Apparently, parents especially mothers do really have this mother's instinct and my mom can see through right a guy's facade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gloria Germanica

- When she adheres to 3rd wave feminism.
- When she is bisexual.
- When she has a university degree.

RUN.


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## Marvin the Dendroid

Debts, exes, even kids I can look past, but I have a hard time taking anyone seriously if they don't collapse into a heap of giggles when first exposed to Flight of the Conchords.


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## Amyra

-When you feel something is wrong, but you just cant get it. 

-When you dont genuinely feel happy from the relationship. 

-When their WORDS DONT MATCH WITH THEIR ACTIONS. 

-When every scene turns out in such a way that they are benifited. 

-When you end up giving benifit of doubt every time. 

-When you start being a detective in a relationship. 

-When they justify their self centered behaviour..for your own misunderstanding. 

-When you end up doubting yourself that you might be the wrong one/crazy and always end up feeling sorry/guilty for the other person. 

-Basically when you have to give a lot of benifit of doubt everytime. 

-When you have to doubt everytime that whether the person you trusted is trustworthy or not! 



(They are just few red flags which I ignored in my relationship with a closet narcisst)


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## Cherry

When he has beliefs such as:

"Women all subconsciously want to be raped" and "Girls don't talk about their periods", "ex was _crazy_", and, in addition, refuses to listen to reason, your own experience, or budge.


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## daleks_exterminate

Gloria Germanica said:


> - When she has a university degree.
> 
> RUN.


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## Wisteria

Apart from the obvious signs of abusive and controlling behaviour:

- They've done bad things in the past, or have a history of divorces.
- Substance abuse
- Have only been in "short term relationships"
- They've had a recent break up (rebound)
- They lack communication or don't talk to you for days
- You feel like you don't trust them or you give them the benefit of the doubt
- Everything feels rushed or forced.
- Talking to other men/women (or gender of preference) when they're with you or telling you about them.
- Cancelling plans because "something came up"
- If you're a girl, when you have to do the pursuing.


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## Luna88

- Projecting. When he/she is blaming you for something that has nothing to do with you but it could be related to him/her. 
- When you articulate your needs, he/she tries to impose their needs and make them beneficial for you.


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## Luna88

Tega1 said:


> If they ask if you want to be more than friends after two dates is that a red flag?
> 
> What about saying they love you within dating them for two months?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would consider it as a red flag (experience). But depends on the person, age, culture, how many relationships had before.


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## Wisteria

I forgot one thing. If they say "there's no one else, it's only you right now" they're probably wasting your time. 

Showing an interest in you after two dates isn't a red flag imo. Unless you mean wanting to be in a serious relationship.


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## Marvin the Dendroid

Sometimes a red flag is an actual red flag.


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## Coonsy

As long as someone is being a reasonable adult and taking care of themselves, things like debt, a divorce (multiple should probably be a flag), etc - meh, whatever. If you were to ever head down the aisle, pre-nups exist for a reason.

-When he threatens to break up with you, or says you aren't putting in any "effort" because of things like - misspelled words in texts. Especially when you're texting all day, every day.
-When they tell you what they appreciate in a relationship, and then when you do it, they throw it back in your face in some twisted logic
-If you're in tears in the first month or two because of the relationship - don't walk, RUN the heck away
-If you're on eggshells every time you talk/text them for fear of saying something they could somehow possibly read the wrong way
-If you don't feel like you can be yourself
-When everything in their life is more important/better than anything you do
-When they want to be made aware of everything you are doing
-Constant contact. It can seem fun at first, but reality is, it gets controlling. For both parties.



Oh, and ya, don't ignore the flags when you see them. Remember that your rose colored glasses are making the red flags just look like flags, but they're actually big, fat RED flags.


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## daleks_exterminate

Rventurelli said:


> II- Having _more than two cats_;


If I get a third cat douche bags will leave me alone?! And I get another cat? Woot woot !


----------



## managua tarantella

when he smells like another girl's perfume


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## Wisteria

I'll share some of the early signs that I totally ignored and payed the price for afterwards. This is probably more for dating men but some might apply to any kind of person;

- Lying. If they lie about literally anything, even if it seems harmless, it's a really bad sign. If they lie about something small they're going to lie about something a lot worse later on. For example I asked a guy if he went out with this group of people we both knew and he said no, even though I saw in a group chat earlier that they had been going out together. 
- Not introducing you to their friends, or their friends are people you don't really like. If you don't like their friends will you really like them? If they're not interested in introducing friends they probably don't want you to be a part of their life.
- They don't want you anywhere near their place, and always make arrangements at your place.
- Flaking (bailing on plans at the last minute). And even worse if they give a bad excuse. 
- They never apologise for anything.
- They shower you with compliments and flattery, or seem way too nice. They're probably being fake and manipulative.
- Telling you they were too busy to even message you. Dont put any time and energy into a person who can't even take a few minutes to message you back. If they care about you they will want to make plans with you and will never give you bullshit like "I was busy"
- If they tell you stories that make you feel bad for them - a stepfather, being heartbroken from an ex. Maybe it's true, but it's common thing that players do. 
- They put minimal effort into the relationship and you feel like they hate talking to you.
- They're self absorbed and value their image on social media. 
- and finally, being selfish in bed and wanting you to do all the work. 

Yeah, it's possible for a person to ignore all these things :/

Also one huge sign that you need to end a relationship - Feeling insecure about the relationship and bad when they're not around, but when they do see you again everything feels great. It's similar to when you experience the withdrawal of a cigarette - you feel anxious and in need of a cigarette, then feel that huge relief when you finally have the chance to smoke it and it feels good. This is bad relationship and it's only going to get worse and more toxic over time.


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## Schizoid

Wisteria said:


> I'll share some of the early signs that I totally ignored and payed the price for afterwards. This is probably more for dating men but some might apply to any kind of person;
> 
> - Lying. If they lie about literally anything, even if it seems harmless, it's a really bad sign. If they lie about something small they're going to lie about something a lot worse later on. For example I asked a guy if he went out with this group of people we both knew and he said no, even though I saw in a group chat earlier that they had been going out together.
> - Not introducing you to their friends, or their friends are people you don't really like. If you don't like their friends will you really like them? If they're not interested in introducing friends they probably don't want you to be a part of their life.
> - They don't want you anywhere near their place, and always make arrangements at your place.
> - Flaking (bailing on plans at the last minute). And even worse if they give a bad excuse.
> - They never apologise for anything.
> - They shower you with compliments and flattery, or seem way too nice. They're probably being fake and manipulative.
> - Telling you they were too busy to even message you. Dont put any time and energy into a person who can't even take a few minutes to message you back. If they care about you they will want to make plans with you and will never give you bullshit like "I was busy"
> - If they tell you stories that make you feel bad for them - a stepfather, being heartbroken from an ex. Maybe it's true, but it's common thing that players do.
> - They put minimal effort into the relationship and you feel like they hate talking to you.
> - They're self absorbed and value their image on social media.
> - and finally, being selfish in bed and wanting you to do all the work.
> 
> Yeah, it's possible for a person to ignore all these things :/
> 
> Also one huge sign that you need to end a relationship - Feeling insecure about the relationship and bad when they're not around, but when they do see you again everything feels great. It's similar to when you experience the withdrawal of a cigarette - you feel anxious and in need of a cigarette, then feel that huge relief when you finally have the chance to smoke it and it feels good. This is bad relationship and it's only going to get worse and more toxic over time.



They seemed like they have avoidant attachment style (either fearful or dismissive). I've anxious-preoccupied attachment style myself and those with avoidant attachment style often triggered my depression/anxiety and gave me panic attacks. These days, if I encounter someone with avoidant attachment style, I just avoid them. You seemed like you have the same anxious-preoccupied attachment style as me, you should probably surround yourself more with people who have secure attachment style. They aren't afraid of intimacy and commitment and they also tend to be consistent with their communication and they don't go hot-and-cold on you like the way people with avoidant attachment style often does. I heard that people with secure attachment style tend to make the best family member/friends/partner. So if you find yourself having lots of deep crazy intense feelings about someone (these people often have avoidant attachment style), it's time to avoid them. On the other hand, if someone appears boring to you and you don't feel chemistry with them (these people often have secure attachment style), try to get to know them better, because they tend to make better partners in the long-run. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults


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## Wisteria

Schizoid said:


> They seemed like they have avoidant attachment style (either fearful or dismissive). I've anxious-preoccupied attachment style myself and those with avoidant attachment style often triggered my depression/anxiety and gave me panic attacks. These days, if I encounter someone with avoidant attachment style, I just avoid them. You seemed like you have the same anxious-preoccupied attachment style as me, you should probably surround yourself more with people who have secure attachment style. They aren't afraid of intimacy and commitment and they also tend to be consistent with their communication and they don't go hot-and-cold on you like the way people with avoidant attachment style often does. I heard that people with secure attachment style tend to make the best family member/friends/partner. So if you find yourself having lots of deep crazy intense feelings about someone (these people often have avoidant attachment style), it's time to avoid them. On the other hand, if someone appears boring to you and you don't feel chemistry with them (these people often have secure attachment style), try to get to know them better, because they tend to make better partners in the long-run.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults


Those attachment styles probably go really badly together because it's like opposite behaviors (An anxious-preoccupied and an avoidant person). And you're probably right that I have the same attachment style as you (although I can also see fearful avoidant because this (_ Similar to the dismissive-avoidant attachment style, people with a fearful-avoidant attachment style seek less intimacy from attachments and frequently suppress and deny their feelings. Because of this, they are much less comfortable expressing affection_) I find it really hard to talk about feelings and they probably got the wrong idea like I wasn't attracted to them or something. I kind of wonder if that's what drew me to them in the first place, because they did have a really similar family background to me, which is what causes insecure attachment styles right? I hope people with the "secure" attachment aren't always boring D:


----------



## Schizoid

Wisteria said:


> Those attachment styles probably go really badly together because it's like opposite behaviors (An anxious-preoccupied and an avoidant person). And you're probably right that I have the same attachment style as you (although I can also see fearful avoidant because this (_ Similar to the dismissive-avoidant attachment style, people with a fearful-avoidant attachment style seek less intimacy from attachments and frequently suppress and deny their feelings. Because of this, they are much less comfortable expressing affection_) I find it really hard to talk about feelings and they probably got the wrong idea like I wasn't attracted to them or something. I kind of wonder if that's what drew me to them in the first place, because they did have a really similar family background to me, which is what causes insecure attachment styles right? I hope people with the "secure" attachment aren't always boring D:


Yeah insecure attachment styles is often caused by family background, e.g., people with anxious-preoccupied attachment styles tend to have parents who often neglect their emotional needs. 

And your attachment style seems more anxious-preoccupied than fearful-avoidant to me. Avoidant types would have difficulty talking about their feelings because they fear intimacy and are afraid of getting too close to people, while anxious-preoccupied types would have difficulty talking about feelings due to fear of rejection. As an anxious-preoccupied type, I often find myself fearing that people doesn't feel the same way about me as I felt about them. E.g, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I'll often hesitate saying the "L" word to my partner until they start saying it to me first, because I worry that they might not feel the same way about me and I didn't want to make a fool out of myself. Also, I find myself very distrusting of people around me, I don't believe that people will stay by my side forever, so I tend to rely a lot on myself emotionally. I'm especially cautious of new people and strangers, I tend to prefer keeping old connections to forming new connections with people. I also find myself having difficulty soothing my emotions.
If someone close to me suddenly distances themselves from me, I'll feel very agitated, and if they try to return into my life and get close to me again, I continue to remain angry at them and I have a hard time forgiving them. 

Fearful-avoidant attachment style is much different. Hmm not sure how to describe this, but I used to be close to someone with fearful-avoidant attachment style and they often does this push-pull thing a lot. One moment they can be so warm and affectionate toward me and pays me lots of attention, and the next moment they suddenly withdrew all their attention from me and went cold and distant on me for weeks. I told them that I'm the sort who needs to hear from my close ones regularly, but instead of meeting my emotional needs they told me to lower my expectations of them. They totally brushed away my emotional needs like it's nothing. A secure attachment type would at least try to meet my emotional needs instead of just brushing away my emotional needs. 
Obviously I no longer consider them as close to me anymore, since we have such different ideas of closeness and they also distanced themselves so much from me that I no longer feel close to them anymore. 

Ha ha and people with secure attachment style, they won't be boring anymore once you fall in love with them. > 
And it's easy to fall in love with them, because they have so many good qualities about them. People with secure attachment styles tend to be very faithful in relationships, they also love labeling their relationships so you will be able to get the girlfriend title from them easily, they are also very affectionate and are consistently warm and you don't have to beg for their affection, and if you're feeling insecure and you let them know about it they will try to reassure you and try to meet your emotional needs. Around them, you will find yourself feeling very calm and content, instead of all the emotional highs and lows that you tend to experience from people with avoidant attachment styles.


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## Wisteria

Schizoid said:


> Yeah insecure attachment styles is often caused by family background, e.g., people with anxious-preoccupied attachment styles tend to have parents who often neglect their emotional needs.
> 
> And your attachment style seems more anxious-preoccupied than fearful-avoidant to me. Avoidant types would have difficulty talking about their feelings because they fear intimacy and are afraid of getting too close to people, while anxious-preoccupied types would have difficulty talking about feelings due to fear of rejection. As an anxious-preoccupied type*, I often find myself fearing that people doesn't feel the same way about me as I felt about them.* E.g, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I'll often hesitate saying the "L" word to my partner until they start saying it to me first, because I worry that they might not feel the same way about me and I didn't want to make a fool out of myself. Also, I find myself very distrusting of people around me, I don't believe that people will stay by my side forever, so I tend to rely a lot on myself emotionally. I'm especially cautious of new people and strangers, I tend to prefer keeping old connections to forming new connections with people. I also find myself having difficulty soothing my emotions.
> If someone close to me suddenly distances themselves from me, I'll feel very agitated, and if they try to return into my life and get close to me again, I continue to remain angry at them and I have a hard time forgiving them.


Yes this is exactly what I was going to say, being afraid they don't feel the same way. I don't know why I was afraid of that, maybe I was scared of their reaction that would instantly tell me they don't have those feelings. Even with romantic interests I never tried to even become friends with them and avoided them instead because I assumed they didn't like me and would never be interested. And now I feel bad about it because I'm started to realise that they were constantly wanting reassurance from me and I didn't give it to them. They were clearly insecure :/



> Fearful-avoidant attachment style is much different. Hmm not sure how to describe this, but I used to be close to someone with fearful-avoidant attachment style and they often does this push-pull thing a lot. One moment they can be so warm and affectionate toward me and pays me lots of attention, and the next moment they suddenly withdrew all their attention from me and went cold and distant on me for weeks. I told them that I'm the sort who needs to hear from my close ones regularly, but instead of meeting my emotional needs they told me to lower my expectations of them. They totally brushed away my emotional needs like it's nothing. A secure attachment type would at least try to meet my emotional needs instead of just brushing away my emotional needs.
> Obviously I no longer consider them as close to me anymore, since we have such different ideas of closeness and they also distanced themselves so much from me that I no longer feel close to them anymore.


That's a shame, I think I had a similar relationship where they wouldn't talk or seem that interested for a few days/weeks then would reappear and get really close. How did you break off that relationship and stop feeling that way about them?



> Ha ha and people with secure attachment style, they won't be boring anymore once you fall in love with them. >
> And it's easy to fall in love with them, because they have so many good qualities about them. People with secure attachment styles tend to be very faithful in relationships, they also love labeling their relationships so you will be able to get the girlfriend title from them easily, they are also very affectionate and are consistently warm and you don't have to beg for their affection, and if you're feeling insecure and you let them know about it they will try to reassure you and try to meet your emotional needs. Around them, you will find yourself feeling very calm and content, instead of all the emotional highs and lows that you tend to experience from people with avoidant attachment styles.


I hope so. Sounds too good to be true


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## Schizoid

Wisteria said:


> Yes this is exactly what I was going to say, being afraid they don't feel the same way. I don't know why I was afraid of that, maybe I was scared of their reaction that would instantly tell me they don't have those feelings. Even with romantic interests I never tried to even become friends with them and avoided them instead because I assumed they didn't like me and would never be interested. And now I feel bad about it because I'm started to realise that they were constantly wanting reassurance from me and I didn't give it to them. They were clearly insecure :/


Interesting. We have the same fear of rejection and the same tendency to hide our feelings from our romantic interests by avoiding them. :3



> That's a shame, I think I had a similar relationship where they wouldn't talk or seem that interested for a few days/weeks then would reappear and get really close. How did you break off that relationship and stop feeling that way about them?


I started setting boundaries with them silently, I started distancing myself from them. I treat them in the same cold manner that they treated me. I stopped giving them my time and attention. I bumped them down my priority list and I prioritised everyone else in my life before them. I have thought about going cold turkey on them before, but I realize that this would only cause me to go into withdrawal mode, so I decided to distance myself from them instead until I become really apathetic about them and then eventually cut them out of my life. You know how drug addicts taper themselves off drugs?
They tend to do it in small doses and cut down their drugs dosage every day until they eventually managed to overcome their drugs habits? It's the same technique here, I know that as an anxious-preoccupied type I tend to get addicted to the attention from avoidant attachment types, and if I want to break off that relationship without experiencing withdrawal I have to get out of it slowly, so what I did is to distance myself from them and I keep increasing those distance until they are eventually out of my life completely.


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## KJL

By time I see red flags it is well beyond too late. Perhaps the biggest red flag for me is a *partner's inability to (or effectively) communicate thoughts and feelings directly!!* I literally cannot react to (subtle) non verbal communication. I take note of it but it does not mean anything to me! No comprehendo. The quickest way to greatly stress me out and drive me insane in a relationship!

Me trying to guess at subtle non verbal communication usually leads to a ton of misunderstanding. I strongly dislike passive aggression and even sarcasm sometimes, which tends to be the result of my inability to read and react.

Speak! Tell me what's wrong, or what did I do wrong, so I can fix it and we can move past it!! I try my best to communicate clearly and I am rather blunt, but I am not a mind reader.

*Control freaks* are a major red flag too! I despise attempts to manipulate or control me.

*Overemotional* is a huge red flag too! I cannot fulfill the emotional requirement to satisfy this person!! They'll constantly crave the emotional validation that I cannot give, becoming even more emotional.

*Lack of confidence and self esteem* is a huge red flag too! I like to tell my partner how I feel about them, everything that I love, be as supportive as possible, physical touch as my main language of love. I've been pushed away hard because partner did not see in theirself what I saw, instead projecting their insecurities to the point where they eventually find someone else. Nope, I'm not gonna beat you down. This is just a person who does not love and accept theirself, therefore cannot do the same for me. The feeling is so foreign to them.

I have no trouble leaving a relationship at all when things begin to spiral downward for whatever reason.


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## Wisteria

KJL said:


> By time I see red flags it is well beyond too late. Perhaps the biggest red flag for me is a *partner's inability to (or effectively) communicate thoughts and feelings directly!!* I literally cannot react to (subtle) non verbal communication. I take note of it but it does not mean anything to me! No comprehendo. The quickest way to greatly stress me out and drive me insane in a relationship!


Some people are just not great at talking about their feelings lol. Try to encourage them and maybe let them get used to talking to you first. I've had trouble with talking about feelings because he was basically asking too soon and I wasn't even ready to open up that way yet. So no idea what happened with you but the relationship was moving too fast for me. If you want a relationship with good communication take it really slowly, keep the conversation lighter and not too intense. They're probably doing things non verbally because it's easier that way.


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## KJL

Wisteria said:


> Some people are just not great at talking about their feelings lol. Try to encourage them and maybe let them get used to talking to you first. I've had trouble with talking about feelings because he was basically asking too soon and I wasn't even ready to open up that way yet. So no idea what happened with you but the relationship was moving too fast for me. If you want a relationship with good communication take it really slowly, keep the conversation lighter and not too intense. They're probably doing things non verbally because it's easier that way.


I understand that. I am not good at talking about my feelings as either, but I still try my absolute best to do so and keep communication clear. I do realize I probably failed my partner then, and it made me realize I need someone who is more adept at speaking about their feelings to balance me out.

Due to broke phone (my partner's), I even tried to use email as a way to let that partner express things that were difficult to say in person. I tried a few other things too. The relationship ended badly after I found evidence to support that I was basically being used. I moved out that Friday.

That was years ago and I learned from my mistakes. I still don't know what I did wrong in that relationship but it doesn't matter anymore cause I have the partner of my dreams now.

Oh, and what you are describing there, your situation, I would have no trouble dealing with at all.


----------



## Wisteria

KJL said:


> I understand that. I am not good at talking about my feelings as either, but I still try my absolute best to do so and keep communication clear. I do realize I probably failed my partner then, and it made me realize I need someone who is more adept at speaking about their feelings to balance me out.
> 
> Due to broke phone (my partner's), I even tried to use email as a way to let that partner express things that were difficult to say in person. I tried a few other things too. The relationship ended badly after I found evidence to support that I was basically being used. I moved out that Friday.
> 
> That was years ago and I learned from my mistakes. I still don't know what I did wrong in that relationship but it doesn't matter anymore cause I have the partner of my dreams now.
> 
> Oh, and what you are describing there, your situation, I would have no trouble dealing with at all.


That sucks, I was going to say that if they're not talking about feelings even though you're encouraging it then it could also be that he/she was using you. Some people will just do that, it's happened to me too >.> Maybe you didn't do anything wrong, you just weren't compatible with that person and it didn't work out. And same, I'm drawn to people who seem like they talk/communicate feelings quite openly (what I didn't realise is that it doesn't always make them a decent or trustworthy person).


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Insecurity masked as confidence or simply resulting in toxic behavior. I'll have none of that, thanks. Or else I'll take your balls, cuck you so hard you'll want to kill yourself then laugh in your face as suddenly everything goes dark and you'll never feel anything. Ever.


----------



## managua tarantella

when you find another girl's hair on his coat


----------



## Abbaladon Arc V

- When she adheres to 3rd wave feminism etremist like horrible reaction if you pay somthing to her 
Dont talk about what she want 
Say i don't know if i love you to more than 1 exes
Don't respect himself , don't comunication 
Listen his friends more than family or love ones 
Hate people for politics reason , more feeling than thinking 
Don't have any priority life sacrificen of himself , too much sellfish 
Dumb , speak dumb thing , speak about clothes for me
Don't play any videos games and don't like star wars was horrible


----------



## pwowq

managua tarantella said:


> when you find another girl's hair on his coat


When she thinks I'm cheating becuase she found a random long hair.
Doesn't matter if cheating happened or I bumped into a long-haired super-gay man. The fact a partner is actively looking for faults is red flag enough imo.


----------



## managua tarantella

pwowq said:


> When she thinks I'm cheating becuase she found a random long hair.
> Doesn't matter if cheating happened or I bumped into a long-haired super-gay man. The fact a partner is actively looking for faults is red flag enough imo.


or it's a sign she's reading cosmo


----------



## Sacrophagus

-A woman who treats you well, and treats everyone else like shit.
-A woman who thinks she's the nec plus ultra and that all men will bow to her will and her fake charm.
-A woman who speaks ill about everyone and paints herself as an infaillible saint.
-A woman who's afraid to look weak in times vulnerability and honesty matter.
-A woman who uses people's guilt to manipulate them, instead of forgiving them.
-A woman who's all about looks, and ostentatious crap.
-A woman who curses other people's success instead of blessing them.
-An entitled woman who thinks the world owes her everything.


----------



## Wisteria

I'll give you a few more, and no they're not from cosmo 

- Not following you on social media or showing any interest in it. It shows a lack of interest, and that they don't see long term potential. It's a particularly bad sign for any millennial who is dating or; they mainly contact you and talk to you on social media, instead of actually spending time together.
- They don't remember the things you tell them or bother to find anything out about you themselves.
- Talking about themselves excessively. It shows they're self absorbed.
- They won't compromise, they take plans into their own hands and are always in control of when you meet.
- They will talk to other people or even hook up with them to make you jealous. 
- The first date feels like you're having to act as a therapist or console them, telling you personal things that make you feel sorry for them.
- He is not nice to his mother, very obvious sign. He will show the same disrespectful or unappreciative attitude towards you. 
- The way they dress is poor, they look untidy and don't seem to care about their appearance when they're out. 
- If they're telling you how chill and laid back they are, it's basically code for "I'm lazy and don't give a fuck about anything in general"

These flags are probably for women dating men, but some might also apply to women. Overly jealous and possessive behaviour, blackmailing, bitching about an ex constantly, and accusing you of cheating despite reassuring them and being committed is probably the most common sign of a woman being toxic in a relationship.


----------



## Alcar

Wisteria said:


> I'll give you a few more, and no they're not from cosmo
> 
> - Not following you on social media or showing any interest in it. It shows a lack of interest, and that they don't see long term potential. It's a particularly bad sign for any millennial who is dating or; they mainly contact you and talk to you on social media, instead of actually spending time together.
> - The way they dress is poor, they look untidy and don't seem to care about their appearance when they're out.


I may disagree with those two ones, especially the first one. I'm a "millennial" and I don't follow people on social media at all. It is not due to a "lack of interest", but because:
- I don't have account on the main social media platform (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,...)
- It is better to show interest in someone by asking questions in a discussion
- I don't really appreciate most of the social media... so, it makes sense to me that I don't use services which I don't like.
- In my opinion, it's a waste of time. I already have a few activity which I consider as a waste of time and I'm not interested to add another one.

The second one is quite subjective and appearance can be misleading. In my case, my appearance is not one of my main focus: I already a very very long list of things that definitely have a highest priority than my appearance. Moreover, I like to see appearance as a filter -> if you can see beyond my appearance, it's definitely a quality that I really appreciate. If you base your judgement on my appearance and you stick to this shallow judgement, I would prefer that you get out of my life.

I agree with the other elements in your list :kitteh:


----------



## Wisteria

Alcar said:


> I may disagree with those two ones, especially the first one. I'm a "millennial" and I don't follow people on social media at all. It is not due to a "lack of interest", but because:
> - I don't have account on the main social media platform (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,...)
> - It is better to show interest in someone by asking questions in a discussion
> - I don't really appreciate most of the social media... so, it makes sense to me that I don't use services which I don't like.
> - In my opinion, it's a waste of time. I already have a few activity which I consider as a waste of time and I'm not interested to add another one.
> 
> The second one is quite subjective and appearance can be misleading. In my case, my appearance is not one of my main focus: I already a very very long list of things that definitely have a highest priority than my appearance. Moreover, I like to see appearance as a filter -> if you can see beyond my appearance, it's definitely a quality that I really appreciate. If you base your judgement on my appearance and you stick to this shallow judgement, I would prefer that you get out of my life.
> 
> I agree with the other elements in your list :kitteh:


Oh well most do use social media, so I meant more the type that uses them all frequently but doesn't bother to add you on them. 

Social media is a waste of time if you personally don't see any use in it, but recommend you get on at least one of those platforms like fb. It's a common way to get to know people. 

Even in the way you dress? Dressing in a sloppy way makes the person look lazy, and likely to be just as half assed in a relationship of any kind. It's not about them being not good looking or having the most trendy haircut, it's about how much effort you put into things in general. If you saw a woman like this you would think the same way, it just looks like she and her life is a mess, no matter how pretty she might be. Guys who wear sweatpants and grown out messy hair usually don't have many women attracted to them (or theyre in a long term relationship, either one). It's not about being shallow it's about effort.


----------



## Alcar

@Wisteria

A bit off-topic:


* *





I agree that it is a common way to get to know people, but you can be quite easily to be tricked on those platform since people can really show only what they want to show. I prefer to get to know people during irl "challenging" activities (sport, games, debate,...)... you can really guess their personality quite well. And, let's caricature a bit, fb is the devil :angry:






Wisteria said:


> Even in the way you dress? Dressing in a sloppy way makes the person look lazy, and likely to be just as half assed in a relationship of any kind. It's not about them being not good looking or having the most trendy haircut, it's about how much effort you put into things in general.


I don't know how you'll judge me if you see me... so, maybe, even if I don't put much effort into my appearance, I may be still looking ok in your opinion... or not. Anyway, you can use this way of filtering people and, maybe, it is more efficient for you than my way of filtering people.



Wisteria said:


> If you saw a woman like this you would think the same way, it just looks like she and her life is a mess, no matter how pretty she might be.


Nope, I don't work that way. It is usually the eyes that give me the first hints about the person's personality... and her shoes. Actually, I may be interested if she looks lazy but, at the same time, I see self-confidence and determination in her eyes.



Wisteria said:


> Guys who wear sweatpants and grown out messy hair usually don't have many women attracted to them (or theyre in a long term relationship, either one). It's not about being shallow it's about effort.


Attraction is another story and, obviously, putting effort in your look increase the probability that someone is attracted to you. My point is that appearance is misleading and some people doesn't put effort into his way of dressing, not because they are lazy, but because they choose to focus on other things... like minimizing the time to get prepared for work in the morning and minimizing hair length fluctuation (that's a bit me).


----------



## SirCanSir

bad cooking should be the obvious one


----------



## Eu_citzen

SirCanSir said:


> bad cooking should be the obvious one


Can you cook?h::heart:


----------



## SirCanSir

Eu_citzen said:


> Can you cook?h::heart:


not much, why would I be looking for housewives otherwise


----------



## daleks_exterminate

-wears really long, red ties.
-says things like "believe me" and "I know what I'm talking about" and "I know words. I have the best words."
-hasn't released tax returns. 
-thinks spending billions on a wall instead of just fixing basic areas of immigration issues is the way to go.


----------



## General Lee Awesome

daleks_exterminate said:


> -wears really long, red ties.
> -says things like "believe me" and "I know what I'm talking about" and "I know words. I have the best words."
> -hasn't released tax returns.
> -thinks spending billions on a wall instead of just fixing basic areas of immigration issues is the way to go.


Hahah I believe you


----------



## Wisteria

Alcar said:


> @Wisteria
> 
> A bit off-topic:
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that it is a common way to get to know people, but you can be quite easily to be tricked on those platform since people can really show only what they want to show. I prefer to get to know people during irl "challenging" activities (sport, games, debate,...)... you can really guess their personality quite well. And, let's caricature a bit, fb is the devil :angry:


It's not the best social media platform, I agree with that. However I haven't found anyone making out they're a person they're not.




> I don't know how you'll judge me if you see me... so, maybe, even if I don't put much effort into my appearance, I may be still looking ok in your opinion... or not. Anyway, you can use this way of filtering people and, maybe, it is more efficient for you than my way of filtering people.


I probably won't judge you lol, it's like I will be put off by someones appearance unless there's a good reason like they smell bad, obesity, etc. Apart from the extremes I don't really go for looks honestly, but from personal experience guys who are bad news tend to dress lazily. I might find them attractive regardless (tbh sometimes I thought they were hot af) but if they dress sloppily most of the time it's just a bad sign not matter what.




> Nope, I don't work that way. It is usually the eyes that give me the first hints about the person's personality... and her shoes. Actually, I may be interested if she looks lazy but, at the same time, I see self-confidence and determination in her eyes.


Her shoes huh? What does someone's shoes tell you about them? I never really think about what someone is wearing, or at least not much. If they're dressed relatively normal then I don't give it much thought. But I would start doing that if I was considering dating them. I don't think you should judge someone by the look of their eyes, like yeah it shows something about them but why not get to know them. 



> Attraction is another story and, obviously, putting effort in your look increase the probability that someone is attracted to you. My point is that appearance is misleading and some people doesn't put effort into his way of dressing, not because they are lazy, but because they choose to focus on other things... like minimizing the time to get prepared for work in the morning and minimizing hair length fluctuation (that's a bit me).


That is like most guys isn't it? Only women spend lots of time getting ready for work in the mornings, all guys do is take a shower and shave probably  As long as you don't act like a lazy person who doesn't give af or find it very hard to visit the barber once in a while, it's probably fine. I'm just talking about those guys who look really shaggy and give you the impression they smoke pot on a regular basis.


----------



## Fru2

Scoobyscoob said:


> Well, I'm not going to put words in Wisteria's virtual mouth, but she did say from personal experience and I find that asking a girl out for coffee can mean something vastly different in Europe. I've seen guys (not me or any of my friends) basically pressure a gal into having sex in a coffee shop with no support from any of the guys in the shop.
> 
> That was several years ago though and I would think things are better now than they were then.


I guess it vastly depends on what kind of coffeeshop you're speaking of, especially when talking to a Dutch guy, but I get your point. From my experience those days are probably long gone so I saw this statement as a mean generalization without any basis to it.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Fru2 said:


> I guess it vastly depends on what kind of coffeeshop you're speaking of, especially when talking to a Dutch guy, but I get your point. From my experience those days are probably long gone so I saw this statement as a mean generalization without any basis to it.


Yeah, hope so. What I was observing happened in the UK as that was the last leg of my trip before I returned to the US. Why don't you ask Bad Bunny yourself? :laughing: Sorry but that name makes me laugh.


----------



## Fru2

Scoobyscoob said:


> Yeah, hope so. What I was observing happened in the UK as that was the last leg of my trip before I returned to the US. Why don't you ask Bad Bunny yourself? :laughing: Sorry but that name makes me laugh.


Perhaps @Bad Bunny likes being scolded for being a Bad Bunny™ and that's why she made this kind of statement in the first place?


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Fru2 said:


> Perhaps @Bad Bunny likes being scolded for being a Bad Bunny™ and that's why she made this kind of statement in the first place?


If I'm remembering correctly, I'd guess she has her reasons. Also, I guess I should say it was the last leg of our trip. It was a group of us heading back to the US at the same time. Those were some fun times. One of my friends caused a pretty big ruckus with some drones he had bought and we almost missed our flight because of that. Being stuck in the UK with no means of returning home while also being accused of disturbing the peace would not have been fun times, imo. :shocked:


----------



## Wisteria

Scoobyscoob said:


> What's wrong with asking someone out for coffee?
> 
> Also, what the heck does "putting an x in a message" mean? That's weird and I feel like is purely an idiosyncratic thing.


You don't know that x means kisses? Wow

Theres nothing wrong but it's a pattern I've noticed. You can ask for coffee for so many reasons, and that includes the type of guy in my red flags post who isn't ready for a relationship or doesn't want to be upfront with what they want, where its going, etc.


----------



## Wisteria

Fru2 said:


> Perhaps @Bad Bunny likes being scolded for being a Bad Bunny™ and that's why she made this kind of statement in the first place?


Ew no


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Bad Bunny said:


> You don't know that x means kisses? Wow
> 
> Theres nothing wrong but it's a pattern I've noticed. You can ask for coffee for so many reasons, and that includes the type of guy in my red flags post who isn't ready for a relationship or doesn't want to be upfront with what they want, where its going, etc.


I do know that x and o means kisses and hugs. It's just the way you wrote it didn't make much sense to me.

Yes, I know, it just seemed like such a random thing to single out. In my experience, asking someone out for coffee is asking someone out to something casual and non-specific but I suppose that's what you don't like about going out for coffee.  To each their own, I suppose.

Mm well maybe you'll change your mind when you're in a committed relationship. I enjoy going on coffee dates with my wife. We can plop our daughter on a couch with a book or tablet and just catch up if we haven't seen one another in a while.


----------



## Fru2

Bad Bunny said:


> Theres nothing wrong but it's a pattern I've noticed. You can ask for coffee for so many reasons, and that includes the type of guy in my red flags post who isn't ready for a relationship or doesn't want to be upfront with what they want, where its going, etc.


Please tell me, for what other reason would a guy ask you out for a coffee other than wanting to know you better? How would the guy know "where its going" if he wouldn't have the chance to know you better? I guess you just like easy guys that are committed from the get go. Saves you the trouble of proving yourself.


----------



## Wisteria

Fru2 said:


> Please tell me, for what other reason would a guy ask you out for a coffee other than wanting to know you better? How would the guy know "where its going" if he wouldn't have the chance to know you better? I guess you just like easy guys that are committed from the get go. Saves you the trouble of proving yourself.


There are plenty of reasons for asking, it could a date, getting to know you better, or catching up because you haven't talked in a while. I've already said I'm talking from personal experience, they're the kind that give mixed signals or only want to hook up, but never actually tell you that.


----------



## Wisteria

Scoobyscoob said:


> I do know that x and o means kisses and hugs. It's just the way you wrote it didn't make much sense to me.
> 
> Yes, I know, it just seemed like such a random thing to single out. In my experience, asking someone out for coffee is asking someone out to something casual and non-specific but I suppose that's what you don't like about going out for coffee.  To each their own, I suppose.
> 
> Mm well maybe you'll change your mind when you're in a committed relationship. I enjoy going on coffee dates with my wife. We can plop our daughter on a couch with a book or tablet and just catch up if we haven't seen one another in a while.


When did I ever say I didn't like coffee? I'm literally just saying I've had bad experience with it and it has always turned out the same. It's indeed casual but casual what? Hanging out as friends, casual sex? Read my post and you'll see that it's red flags for guys who aren't ready for relationships. They often ask for coffee because it's casual.


----------



## Fru2

Bad Bunny said:


> There are plenty of reasons for asking, it could a date, getting to know you better, or catching up because you haven't talked in a while. I've already said I'm talking from personal experience, they're the kind that give mixed signals or only want to hook up, but never actually tell you that.


Yeah, all those actions lead to one thing - wanting to know you better. Making such a generalization based off of a few personal experiences seems rather close-minded to me. You spoke of it as if it were a universal rule - that's what bugged me.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Bad Bunny said:


> When did I ever say I didn't like coffee? I'm literally just saying I've had bad experience with it and it has always turned out the same. It's indeed casual but casual what? Hanging out as friends, casual sex? Read my post and you'll see that it's red flags for guys who aren't ready for relationships. They often ask for coffee because it's casual.


You're doing that thing again. I said maybe you'll enjoy coffee dates when you're in a committed relationship because then you won't have to guess the intentions because it'll likely be just that, a date. Hence why I mentioned that I enjoy going on coffee dates with my wife and daughter. It's casual with no pressure and we can just chat and catch up if we haven't talked in a while.


----------



## Wisteria

Fru2 said:


> Yeah, all those actions lead to one thing - wanting to know you better. Making such a generalization based off of a few personal experiences seems rather close-minded to me. You spoke of it as if it were a universal rule - that's what bugged me.


It's a few personal experiences but I don't why it wouldn't be a common thing - If a guy is genuinely interested in the girl then he will probably ask more than just going for coffee. If he has commitment issues and isn't bad at relationships, what kind of date would he set up with her? - It would likely be coffee, the most casual date there is. 

Do you agree with the other red flags at least, or do you also think that is my experience and not a universal rule?

I'm sure most guys know what they want most from a date, they don't just go into it thinking "maybe i'll have sex with her tonight, or we will have a long lasting relationship, who knows!"


----------



## Wisteria

Scoobyscoob said:


> You're doing that thing again. I said maybe you'll enjoy coffee dates when you're in a committed relationship because then you won't have to guess the intentions because it'll likely be just that, a date. Hence why I mentioned that I enjoy going on coffee dates with my wife and daughter. It's casual with no pressure and we can just chat and catch up if we haven't talked in a while.


My post was about the beginning of a new relationship, when you first start dating a person. Not during a relationship - of course there's nothing wrong with that.


----------



## NewBeginning

A major red flag is if the other person flakes out on a planned date you guys made together to just hang out. Another red flag is if he lets you pay for food. He's telling you your body is not what he was intentionally looking for but he's open to hanging out as friends because you seem like a fun friend and person to just be around and be pals with.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Possessiveness stemming from jealousy. A little bit of jealousy is normal, but too much is a pretty clear sign that there's something wrong with the level of trust and understanding with one another. Which usually means the relationship won't make it very long.


----------



## AlsoKnownAs

Lying. A three forms of that.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

AlsoKnownAs said:


> Lying. A three forms of that.


What're the 3 forms?


----------



## SgtPepper

-She's a self-proclaimed "bitch".

Believe her.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Semitanned said:


> Delivering intentional misinfo
> Hiding relevant info
> Delivering partial truths mixed with lying
> 
> Jealousy is not normal. It means the part that is feeling jealous is insecure about something. One is ought to feel most secure about ones most intimate relationship. And will if its completely healthy. And balanced.


Outside of work or a professional environment, in the real world, no one cares then. Also, I would prefer if the person I asked replied instead. Outside of agreements to do so, it's rude to try to speak for others.


----------



## KasKas19

The people that say that they don't have red flags have either not had a serious relationship when they were an adult or has really low standards. Everyone who had seen or dealt with shitty people usually knows to find red flags so they don't repeat.


----------



## 66767

KasKas19 said:


> The people that say that they don't have red flags have either not had a serious relationship when they were an adult or has really low standards. Everyone who had seen or dealt with shitty people usually knows to find red flags so they don't repeat.


oof, facts


----------



## Wisteria

KasKas19 said:


> The people that say that they don't have red flags have either not had a serious relationship when they were an adult or has really low standards. Everyone who had seen or dealt with shitty people usually knows to find red flags so they don't repeat.


A lot of people do repeat though , when they don't think they deserve any better


----------



## KasKas19

Wisteria said:


> A lot of people do repeat though , when they don't think they deserve any better


So that would mean that they could have low standards.


----------



## RedBlaur

There are no objective red flags, only subjective views of one


----------



## Polexia

Wisteria said:


> A lot of people do repeat though , when they don't think they deserve any better


Exactly, and they can get to that point in numerous ways. (Childhood abuse, abusive partner, abusive friends, low self esteem etc)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wisteria

Polexia said:


> Exactly, and they can get to that point in numerous ways. (Childhood abuse, abusive partner, abusive friends, low self esteem etc)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah and it is because of low standards but with themselves not their partner.


----------



## Ronney

Alcoholic red flag. Drug addict red flag. Her ex is her best friend red flag. They are the main ones I encounter.


----------



## JennahHaeley/Sanstread

Control. Direct, or suttle.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Dishonesty and makes onerous demands would be my instant red flags.


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Being stupidly chaotic. That's not just a red flag but an instant dealbreaker. When I say chaotic, I mean being physically chaotic when the environment doesn't call for it. ie: You're being stupidly random.


----------



## Posie_girl90

For me a huge red flag is not being honest. I'd like to think I'm pretty understanding. But you not talking to me and being honest even if it's something you did that you regret, is the biggest hit to the guy. Just tell me and we'll figure it out together, or brainstorm what to do, but don't lie. I'd rather you tell me the truth no matter how bad it is than lie to me and I find out some other way


----------



## Scoobyscoob

Posie_girl90 said:


> For me a huge red flag is not being honest. I'd like to think I'm pretty understanding. But you not talking to me and being honest even if it's something you did that you regret, is the biggest hit to the guy. Just tell me and we'll figure it out together, or brainstorm what to do, but don't lie. I'd rather you tell me the truth no matter how bad it is than lie to me and I find out some other way


Those are some good points.


----------



## Lunacik




----------



## Lunacik




----------



## daleks_exterminate

Ock said:


> Dune?


Yes, and i stand by it.

Has not read Dune....

Giant red flag.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

daleks_exterminate said:


> Yes, and i stand by it.
> 
> Has not read Dune....
> 
> Giant red flag.


_sarcastic reply to this^^, not worth the effort_


----------



## ENIGMA2019

Being a DICK.


----------



## Flabarac Brupip

Ock said:


> _sarcastic reply to this^^, not worth the effort_


Kneejerk reaction to being slighted for not knowing a book. No real harm was meant in either direction I guess.


----------



## General Lee Awesome

someone willing to date me xD


----------



## Schizoid

I think this video over here has highlighted the red flags of a relationship, basically if they speak to you in a disrespectful way, and if they act over-controlling toward you and tries to control what you wear and isolate you from your family/friends etc.


----------



## Lunacik

_"I already faced all my demons."_

Oh, really? So you're perfect and need no more personal development? Interesting. I mean, that's basically what saying that implies.
I walked away from every person who ever said this shit. I usually gave chances first, but they really were always stagnant and had no self-awareness or depth in that way.


----------



## Dezir

If you happen to have 1-2 crazy ex, you just got unlucky. But if you happen to have most of your ex-es as crazy ex then you may be the one at fault here. And I don't mean it that you're the crazy one.

But rather it's simply bad strategy on the man's part.

Lots of men, want a relationship, but at the same time, ask women to go to their home first. For something casual. This is equally true of guys who really want something casual and guys who actually want to commit.

The issue is that if you do that you're 100% guaranteed only to attract low purity women. Because what would the high purity women say if you ask them to their home first that you want for a relationship? no. They are going to say no, that's why they are high purity. And that's why you are single and only find "bad women".

Instead of asking them to go to their home first, if you really want a relationship, ask them for coffe. You're more likely to find high purity women there who would accept is.

If you would ask for coffe instead of going to your place, you're going to have equally high purity and low purity women accepting the offer I think, because I don't think a low purity woman would say no to coffe in the same way a high purity woman would say no to bed, and from them you can filter using red flags to see who is actually high purity and not.

I think this creating your own selection bias also works in reverse. Like men giving f-boy vibes and such. Like having pictures with other women, shirtless body gym, pictures of them smoking, pictures of wealth, instead of for example a picture of them with a dog. Or a picture of them in a plain new T-shirt with nothing special about them.

Who is the pictures with other women, shirtless body gym, pictures of them smoking, pictures of wealth going to attract? low purity women.
Who is the pictures with the dog or the pictures with them with a plain new T-shirt and nothing special going on in the background going to attract? high purity women. Women who want to commit, women who want something special, so to speak. Or even if you have a hobby, a picture with a violin or playing chess, who is it going to attract? it's like being a niche market for your own audience.

A woman who only goes for f-boys is not going to go for a man playing a violin or playing chess in his pictures unless he's extremely attractive like 9/10. On the other hand, women are going to see the personality of this man and like more his personality. By the way, you don't have to be "nerdy looking" to play violin and play chess. If you are "nerdy looking" that's another issue in itself not related to that. You can be average looking and do that.

So much like the women getting with physically and mentally abusive men, they are creating their own selection bias and then complain about the results.

And it's not even their fault because people do that without realising.

*I know 1 man and 1 woman who always picked bad partners*.

In both cases, the lesson is: *If you feel like you end up in toxic relationships over and over, it might be worth considering if there's some behaviour on your part that takes you there.*

The woman had... terrible parents.

No one purposely goes around picking people that will be abusive to them, they do it subconsciosuly. We tend to form our views about the ideal man and ideal woman from our father & mother. If they are not that ideal, well, that's what we think the ideal man and woman would be. This translate into the ideal self and ideal partner. This is why she kept being with abusive men. A lot of women, wouldn't have invited/accepted abusive men in the first place, and would have dumped him with the first occasion of red flag/cheating. But because she grew up in a bad enviroment, she was conditioned to believe that thing is okay.

And, well yes, she did select them. We only accept the love we think we deserve. Do you think all her life she was only approached by Guys abusive men? no, but she only gave the most attention to those men because there was something from them that resonated within her.

It's not her fault because she was raised that way, but I can't deny the fact that she was selecting them and that those weren't "hidden red flags" but foghorns. Acceptance preceeds change.

We cannot fix a problem if we do not acknowledge we have a problem in the first place.

But she seems to be on the right path so it's very good for her.

I think one POV here is "she's a woman who falls for aholes, she deserves it" which may be described as the "male experience", with men seeing women going for men who are clearly bad for them, while rejecting those who would not be bad for them, and then complaining that all men are the same.

Another POV here is "men are abusve and couldn't be trusted, she basically had bad luck", she simply wasn't trained and was naive and couldn't see the hidden red flags, with an emphasis that it's the men's faults for the situation she is in right now and if it weren't for those guys she would be better.

I think the best POV here is, first of all, cut off the part with "she deserves it", she doesn't. She has already been through a lot. Second, it's more important to ask "why she's a woman who falls for aholes?", rather than delive a value-judgement that "she's a woman who falls for aholes" which helps nothing and no one.

Is she a woman who falls for aholes? I think so. She was abused by 3 men multiple times before making the right decision to leave. This is not a general case for all women and I for once couldn't stand bad character in women, seeing them being abusive and cheating is a bigger turn off than doing drugs, I imagine it must be the same for some women in relation with men.

Are men abusive and can't be trusted? some are, some aren't. Just like women. I don't think there's much gender variation in this point. It's more about improving your ability to select the good from the bad.

Was there bad luck? yes and no. She could have had an abusive childhood and the luck to never met a creep in her life. But because of her early life, I think she was subconsciously selecting for them which I think is the point. We only accept the love we think we deserve. That's what she thought she deserved, so she went for that.

Clearly those men are at fault. No question that they are the main aggressors and have most of the blame. But at the same time, I think she was selcting for those kind of men because of her early life, probably a lot more than 3 men were interested in her, but she specifically selected out of all the men for those 3 men because something within them resonated with her.

So yeah. If you are walking alone at 2 AM alone in a bad neighbourhood and get robbed. The robber is the main aggressor and has most of the blame. But at the same time, you can't completely remove your agency since you're the one who decided to go walking alone at 2 AM alone in a bad neighbourhood expecting nothing would happen.

We have to be honest with these things if we want to get to the bottom of them. I don't think that "I'm blameless" is a solution but realise why is bad within yourself and try to change it. And in order to change something, you have to accept it first. Because if you don't have a problem, you don't have a problem, so there's nothing to change, it's all external factors.

And with the man, it was basically the same thing but in reverse, but this man had 7 crazy ex-es.

So yeah, sometimes red flags can be red flags, sometimes you can be a magnet for red flags.


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## Kintsugi

Here's another Red Flag 🚩 - when they unironically use phrase "low/high purity women


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