# About the "Kill the nice guy" thread and -



## CaptainWildChild (Dec 26, 2012)

Men and women who complains about being in the friendzone.






Pretty sums up what I believe on why I and others put guys/girls in the friendzone. 

I just wanted to share this video because it is really good and true. Also it is my respond to the other thread and I wanted to be noticed~~~


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I agree with his perspective. 

I also like this one...


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Just wanted to clarify; 

I agree with Matthew's video that nice guys tend to be inhibited guys, but I don't agree with him that it's a reprehensible trait. (ie. nice guys 'should' finish last).


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Just wanted to clarify;
> 
> I agree with Matthew's video that nice guys tend to be inhibited guys, but I don't agree with him that it's a reprehensible trait. (ie. nice guys 'should' finish last).


I expect inhibited people to finish last. Inhibited people don't risk failure and therefore never excel at anything. If you never deserve to be slapped or promoted, is that really living? My husband stands out for his kindness. He actively takes chances that can result in him getting hurt/rejected. But he excels at kindness. That's something worthy of respect. People that don't risk anything, gain nothing.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> I expect inhibited people to finish last.


So do I.

I just think there are far worse things to be than inhibited, at least they are benign (if you've ever met a narcissistic or psychopathic personality you'll know what I'm talking about). I hope those mofos finish last, but it's probably going to be the nice guy.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> So do I.
> 
> I just think there are far worse things to be than inhibited, at least they are benign (if you've ever met a narcissistic or psychopathic personality you'll know what I'm talking about). I hope those mofos finish last, but it's probably going to be the nice guy.


I think people get a kick out of the bad guy too. Mediocrity is generally ignored. Think of the Joker from Batman or Nurse Ratched from OFOTCN. Anton Chigur from NCFOM. People you enjoy hating and enjoy watching. People prefer their food and their people hot or cold. They spit out those things that are lukewarm.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> I think people get a kick out of the bad guy too.


I'm not sure what your response was trying to say.

I'm aware that some people like assholes, narcissists and psychopaths more than benign people.

Do you prefer real-life narcissists and psychopaths to people who are inhibited and benign?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Meh, I don't care about people that much but I don't do that to impress them. There are times when I just acted the other way "nice" but I can't compare myself to the video because I don't do it to make others feel good and lose myself I just do it so we can get on with it and I can get back to myself. I agree with the video though I don't like it when people aren't being genuine and honest "act nice when you aren't happy with what's happening".


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I'm not sure what your response was trying to say.
> 
> I'm aware that some people like assholes, narcissists and psychopaths more than benign people.
> 
> Do you prefer real-life narcissists and psychopaths to people who are inhibited and benign?


They're more entertaining. Sometimes people can find themselves rooting for the bad guy/girl. I've yet to see someone root for the mediocre guy that didn't risk anything. The mediocre guy that decides to take a risk is the underdog. They'll get cheered on. Benign boring person that still hasn't tried to do something vs bad guy, people root for the bad guy. Bad guy vs good guy, people root on the good guy.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> They're more entertaining. Sometimes people can find themselves rooting for the bad guy/girl. I've yet to see someone root for the mediocre guy that didn't risk anything. The mediocre guy that decides to take a risk is the underdog. They'll get cheered on. Benign boring person that still hasn't tried to do something vs bad guy, people root for the bad guy. Bad guy vs good guy, people root on the good guy.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


>


Hey, I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of it. Just the truth.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Under this logic psychopaths should rule the world... sadly this is happening


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> Hey, I'm not arguing the rightness or wrongness of it. Just the truth.


I agree that society tends to give positive reinforcement to (quasi or actual) narcissists and psychopaths, more than people who are inhibited or lack assertiveness (nice guys). 

Through following the 'nice guy' subject over the years I've concluded that there is a growing open disdain and contempt for men who lack assertiveness and are inhibited. They are either shamed or insulted for having confidence issues (which IMO and IME reinforces the problem) or are perceived as being manipulative or deceptive.

IMO being 'nice' to influence people to like you, is no more deceptive (in and of itself) than being funny, insightful, etc.

I do agree with the video where he says that 'nice' people often become bitter due to having their needs and boundaries repeatedly negated by others. I've perceived a lot of former self-proclaimed nice guys like that in the manosphere.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I agree that society tends to give positive reinforcement to (quasi or actual) narcissists and psychopaths, more than people who are inhibited or lack assertiveness (nice guys).
> 
> Through following the 'nice guy' subject over the years I've concluded that there is a growing open disdain and contempt for men who lack assertiveness and are inhibited. They are either shamed or insulted for having confidence issues (which IMO and IME reinforces the problem) or are perceived as being manipulative or deceptive.
> 
> ...


Men and women alike "nice" people are difficult to relate to. Consistently "nice", that fence riding is hard to empathize with.


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

RobynC said:


> Under this logic psychopaths should rule the world... sadly this is happening


What do you mean "is happening"?

It's always been like that. You don't get to the top of this world without crushing those beneath you. If you have a conscience, you wont do as well as someone without one. Life is far easier if you don't give a shit about anyone else. If you're not willing to use, chances are you're going to be used.


You think rulers stayed rulers by helping everyone else? They use everyone else to help them acquire more power. They used whatever they could to convince the idiot masses that their cause is right and just. They're still doing that. They're STILL using religion and bullshit to convince everyone they're doing the right thing. They tell us we're bringing FREEDOM to others, with bombs and bullets. And our "enemies" do the same.

That's life.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> Men and women alike "nice" people are difficult to relate to.


For me to not perceive and treat nice men and women with kindness, I'd do the same to a part of myself.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

I actually don't believe in "nice" guys; I can sniff out your ulterior motive in a heartbeat, and I reject you for it. Every "nice" guy I've rejected has been nice to try to get into my pants. I don't like men who treat me like shit, but I do enjoy generally pleasant people who also have an edge. I don't like passive people who I find about as useful to converse with as a wet noodle. Also, the friend zone is the mythological resting place of the equally mythological nice guy.

Also, who wants to be ascribed such a bland adjective as "nice"? Set the bar higher. Have more personality than a dish rag.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> For me to not perceive and treat nice men and women with kindness, I'd do the same to a part of myself.


Doesn't mean I'm cruel to them. I just don't get it. Not being able to stand up for yourself. I don't get it. I got bullied as a kid. Typically I was the new kid, was deaf and small for my age. You could lay bets I was going to get my arse kicked. But I couldn't stand down. Taking it would have hurt so much. I can take scrapes and bruises. I couldn't take it lying down. How others do it and keep on doing it... how? It sounds like suffocating by choice to me.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> Doesn't mean I'm cruel to them


I think there's a level below kindness - neutrality. So I wasn't saying you were necessarily cruel. 

If you were I thought you were I wouldn't even bother replying to you, because you I doubt you would care.



> I just don't get it.


I think it's a lot easier to understand it experientially, than to try to understand it intellectually. If you want to try to get an insight - this may sound strange but... trust me - try to adopt the body language and tone of voice of a meek person, and interact with people from that 'place'. Hopefully you'll experience empathy.

If I had to guess though I doubt as a feminist you'd have trouble empathizing with a nice 18 yr old woman who was a victim of (non-physical) sexual harassment in her workplace but was afraid to speak up?

Tbh I've never a met a nice person who didn't have values which is what some people seem to think. When they feel comfortable in your presence they are just like any living human being ie. they have beliefs and values.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> I think there's a level below kindness - neutrality. So I wasn't saying you were necessarily cruel.
> 
> If you were I thought you were I wouldn't even bother replying to you, because you I doubt you would care.
> 
> ...


I'm polite, but no, I don't understand the girl that doesn't speak up. I've been the girl that had guys say some really inappropriate shit to me in the work place. I dropped my first hint with a stone face. They continued and then asked what's wrong when I stopped walking. I told them I was making note of what I was going to put on my sexual harassment claim. They shut the fuck up at that point. I don't want to go through the hassle of a sexual harassment claim. But I can't imagine putting up with that crap. No. Just no.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> I actually don't believe in "nice" guys;


I've heard the exact same thing from MGTOWers about women.

You're a feminist right?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

monemi said:


> I'm polite, but no, I don't understand the girl that doesn't speak up.


*shrugs*


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

@strangestdude

What exactly is a nice guy Sir? You have mentioned inhibited but that is kinda ambiguous, no?
Is a reserved, quiet, polite guy a nice guy? 
What about the Jolly people person guy? Is he a nice guy even though he is not inhibited? 

I am having trouble following because there seems to no clear definition of what a nice guy is.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I've heard the exact same thing from MGTOWers about women.
> 
> You're a feminist right?


I don't believe most people are actually "nice". In my experience, in general, people are at their nicest when they want something. Also, who the fuck wants to be described as "nice"? It's such a bland adjective that really speaks about having no personality.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

@Arclight - Holy crap! I actually agree with you on something.


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> @_Arclight_ - Holy crap! I actually agree with you on something.


I at least always respect you even if we don't agree too often.. I know for people who takes sides, I am difficult to understand. I find fault and merit as equals and on equal terms.. I am mostly concerned with the means people apply and rarely the end they hope to achieve.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

Arclight said:


> I at least always respect you even if we don't agree too often.. I know for people who takes sides, I am difficult to understand. I find fault and merit as equals and on equal terms.. I am mostly concerned with the means people apply and rarely the end they hope to achieve.


A definition of "nice" definitely needs to be established for this kind of discussion. (I also don't think the dictionary definition of "nice" is what these people actually use to describe a "nice girl" or a "nice guy".)


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

I have friends who would be considered "nice". They are very quiet, reserved, and safety conscious. They, in no way deserve the contempt dished out to them. The kind of contempt I see towards "spineless nice guys" rivals the contempt I see towards rapists and violent abusers. It's ridiculous. These "nice guys" wouldn't hurt a fly, but people treat them absolutely horribly. So you're not attracted to them. Whatever. They still don't deserve to be treated like crap. People need to get their priorities in check.


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## Arclight (Feb 10, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> A definition of "nice" definitely needs to be established for this kind of discussion. (I also don't think the dictionary definition of "nice" is what these people actually use to describe a "nice girl" or a "nice guy".)


 Well it is all very subjective.. Nice is in the eye of the beholder as is any value judgement.. You would think some people would get that by now .. I mean they post on a site dedicated to that very concept but instead they keep trying to reduce everything to their own perception and experience rather than build on the variables and seek a more global understanding of themselves and others.

Anyway.. Yeah but @strangestdude should ante up and lets us know what he thinks a nice guy is so we can actually move on here LOL..


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Arclight said:


> @_strangestdude_
> 
> What exactly is a nice guy Sir? You have mentioned inhibited but that is kinda ambiguous, no?
> Is a reserved, quiet, polite guy a nice guy?
> ...


My husband has been mistaken for a "nice guy", but the better word would be kind. He has clear boundaries and if someone crosses them, he will confront them. People that have just met him and made the mistaken of being rude to him quickly find out the difference. Kind, quiet, reserved does not mean doormat.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> My husband has been mistaken for a "nice guy", but the better word would be kind. He has clear boundaries and if someone crosses them, he will confront them. People that have just met him and made the mistaken of being rude to him quickly find out the difference. Kind, quiet, reserved does not mean doormat.


Even doormats don't deserve to be spat on.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

marked174 said:


> Even doormats don't deserve to be spat on.


Did I say they do? 

I can't control how people treat "nice guys". I just don't understand why they don't stand up for themselves.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> Did I say they do?
> 
> I can't control how people treat "nice guys". I just don't understand why they don't stand up for themselves.


A lot of times it's because they were abused and haven't dealt with it yet. Disdain, mockery, and contempt are not really solutions for that. Honestly, people should be more supportive and helpful to the "doormats" if anything; they need help.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

marked174 said:


> A lot of times it's because they were abused and haven't dealt with it yet. Disdain, mockery, and contempt are not really solutions for that. Honestly, people should be more supportive and helpful to the "doormats" if anything; they need help.


Yeah, I'm not one of those people that tries to fix people. Odds are, I'm gonna completely fuck them up. If people are obviously damaged, I might try to offer encouragement but carefully walk a wide circle around them. Odds are high I'm gonna say something insensitive and make it worse.


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## Mee2 (Jan 30, 2014)

Most of the people who I see described as "nice" are actually just passive. The two terms seem to be synonymous. And Passivity is not a good thing. I suppose they're perceived as being nice because passive people are never overtly nasty. But what they are instead is passive-aggressive. The unfortunate thing is that this indirect kind of nastiness is much harder to spot, and can always be excused as being unintentional. So a lot of these passive-aggressive people are still perceived as being nice, even when they're not. At all. 

But even if they're not passive-aggressive, the best they can be is still only neutral -- that's the limit on how kind a passive person can be. These "nice guys" (not that there isn't an abundance of women with the same attitude) are the types of people who observe mistreatment and do nothing about it. If that's what "nice" is, then I don't want to be it. 

Just touching on the narcissist/psychopath thing: I've found that both types are often passive, and I wouldn't doubt their ability to convince people that they're "nice". That's how they hide their abuse. It's always indirect, subtle, and easily excused if they're ever called out on it. You know, I might even be able to make a pretty convincing case that these so called "nice guys" _are_ narcissists; you know, with their sense of entitlement and all. Not sure, but worth thinking about.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

marked174 said:


> A lot of times it's because they were abused and haven't dealt with it yet. Disdain, mockery, and contempt are not really solutions for that. Honestly, people should be more supportive and helpful to the "doormats" if anything; they need help.


I went through twelve years of severe child abuse, and no one would call me a doormat. I'll put up with shit longer than I have to because I always think that I can cure men who may as well be rabid dogs. I don't have a problem with genuinely pleasant people; I have a huge problem with people who describe themselves as "nice", whine about their lot in life, and in actuality have ulterior motives. This, in my experience, is the major reason people are actually nice to me, and so when people are "nice" to me, my alarms start going off.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

monemi said:


> Yeah, I'm not one of those people that tries to fix people. Odds are, I'm gonna completely fuck them up. If people are obviously damaged, I might try to offer encouragement but carefully walk a wide circle around them. Odds are high I'm gonna say something insensitive and make it worse.


I don't think that's a particularly terrible outlook.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

koalaroo said:


> I went through twelve years of severe child abuse, and no one would call me a doormat. I'll put up with shit longer than I have to because I always think that I can cure men who may as well be rabid dogs. I don't have a problem with genuinely pleasant people; I have a huge problem with people who describe themselves as "nice", whine about their lot in life, and in actuality have ulterior motives. This, in my experience, is the major reason people are actually nice to me, and so when people are "nice" to me, my alarms start going off.


Well, some of the nice guy friends I have do whine about their lot in life, but the extremely nice guys (who are severe doormats) rarely complain about anything at all. That's the thing I'm starting to notice: that "nice guys" are just a stereotype. Some have ulterior motives while others don't, but people lump them in altogether.

I believe in judging people by their actions, not their indicators. Being a whiner is annoying, but it isn't malicious. I don't think it's right to assign someone who is a whiner as someone who is an abuser (necessarily). I certainly don't think it's right to assign someone who is a people-pleasing pushover as someone who is abusive. I know too many people who are otherwise.

Disclaimer: There is a difference between judgment and discernment. If something is indicative, I will make assumptions. It's not necessarily wrong to make conclusions or inferences about people based on prior knowledge or experience. Judging, on the other hand, denotes a sentencing. I don't think it's right to punish or sentence someone of something based upon those indicators, nor do I think it is right to make a blanket verbal or physical association based on prior knowledge or experience.


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

I dislike this whole attitude,
The issue isn't in being nice,
But in being nice for the wrong reasons,
To the extent that you give up a bit of yourself and natural assertiveness to be 'pleasing' to others,
In the end,
Those with manners and with GENUINE care usually win in the longer run.

This new culture of dudes and girls having to be 'bitches' and 'bastards' to get people,
Is quite frankly scary as hell.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> I don't believe most people are actually "nice".


Thanks for clarifying.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I sincerely hope I never visit wherever it is that you live.
> 
> Where I live I can have a polite or benign conversation with someone and that's that. I don't believe I need to think about what their 'angle' is.


Almost all pleasantries are superficial; at which point, "niceness" is also superficial.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> Almost all pleasantries are superficial; at which point, "niceness" is also superficial.


Do you think your experience and perception is universal?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> Do you think your experience and perception is universal?


Nope, but it seems to be the majority of people I interact with, and a few people seem to agree with me about "nice guys" and the mythical "friend zone".


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> and a few people seem to agree with me about "nice guys" and the mythical "friend zone".


Women?


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> Women?


Some men do as well.

I've never been friend zoned. I've never friend zoned someone. They're either my friend, or they aren't.

I don't like "nice" people. I don't like "nice guys." (Also, notice that I keep putting "nice" in quotation marks?) If you're getting rejected, it's because people sniff out your motives.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> I don't like "nice" people. I don't like "nice guys." (Also, notice that I keep putting "nice" in quotation marks?) If you're getting rejected, it's because people sniff out your motives.


I understand that you don't believe there are genuinely nice people.

I also think that some women see nice as boring, and highly value excitement in a relationship.


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## Empty (Sep 28, 2011)

RobynC said:


> Under this logic psychopaths should rule the world... sadly this is happening



First time in history I've agreed with you.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

strangestdude said:


> I understand that you don't believe there are genuinely nice people.
> 
> I also think that some women see nice as boring, and highly value excitement in a relationship.


If "nice" means passivity, then yes, that is boring in a mate. I don't value passivity, but I think you'll also find that most women also don't value "excitement" in a relationship, either, if I'm inferring what you mean by it correctly. We don't typically enjoy conflict.


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## Nordom (Oct 12, 2011)

Just some thoughts because I think there are good points both ways and I don't really have a horse for either side. I'll admit to not like hearing men bitch about friend-zoning though because that's something you can control if you are upfront with your intentions. This is coming from one who has been swatted down a million times. You can't stay bitter or you'll never get anywhere.

As for this particular thread:

-Nice still needs to be defined here. From browsing this thread, I'm narrowing it down to youngish, single men who still either just want to get laid, or to meet the girl of their dreams? Hard to say you can always tell the intention. You have to meet someone somehow, whether you're aggressive, upfront, trying to get them to laugh, or asking them what their favorite color is.

-Gay men, ladies? Would you describe any of them as nice? No ulterior motives to get in your pants. Nit-pickish, but that's a good chunk of the population.

-If you live in a city, I'm sure more men who camo themselves to be nice are the types who really do just want to get in your pants. Much higher dating pool on either side. He doesn't care if he gets shot down because he can just try again later that night at a different night club or the next night. I totally get that perspective, and as a woman I'm sure that gets annoying.

-The country though? Different animal depending on where you live. Ever spent time in a small town where everyone knows each other? I've been out to Frankenmuth, MI recently and they have bible studies on their lunch breaks. It would be scandalous if any of the male employees hit on single, female women there, because they just don't DO that out there for heaven's sake. I don't know how else to describe the town other than Pleasantville. Everyone there is "nice." 

-Canadians? Australians? Everyone loves Canadians and Australians (half joking on this one but we are really generalizing the whole male population here). I've got two male Aussie cousins who plenty of women would want to jump but they are really shy, unaggressive types.

-Charlie Brown deserved to get friend-zoned by the little red haired girl. Too nice. And bald.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

koalaroo said:


> but I think you'll also find that most women also don't value "excitement" in a relationship, either, if I'm inferring what you mean by it correctly. We don't typically enjoy conflict.


I wasn't referring to conflict per se, I meant unpredictability, entertainment and variety.

Women tend to consciously list traits like 'an edge', funny, etc. Most dudes don't list those qualities IME - I don't think dudes need as much excitement in the context of dating or a relationship to keep them interested.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Iamtp said:


> -Canadians? Australians? Everyone loves Canadians and Australians (half joking on this one but we are really generalizing the whole male population here). I've got two male Aussie cousins who plenty of women would want to jump but they are really shy, unaggressive types.


Accents are bonuses to a good catch of a man.
Peripheral more so than primary attraction I believe


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## InAName (Apr 9, 2013)

Mee2 said:


> Most of the people who I see described as "nice" are actually just passive. The two terms seem to be synonymous. And Passivity is not a good thing. I suppose they're perceived as being nice because passive people are never overtly nasty. But what they are instead is passive-aggressive. The unfortunate thing is that this indirect kind of nastiness is much harder to spot, and can always be excused as being unintentional. So a lot of these passive-aggressive people are still perceived as being nice, even when they're not. At all.
> 
> But even if they're not passive-aggressive, the best they can be is still only neutral -- that's the limit on how kind a passive person can be. These "nice guys" (not that there isn't an abundance of women with the same attitude) are the types of people who observe mistreatment and do nothing about it. If that's what "nice" is, then I don't want to be it.
> 
> Just touching on the narcissist/psychopath thing: I've found that both types are often passive, and I wouldn't doubt their ability to convince people that they're "nice". That's how they hide their abuse. It's always indirect, subtle, and easily excused if they're ever called out on it. You know, I might even be able to make a pretty convincing case that these so called "nice guys" _are_ narcissists; you know, with their sense of entitlement and all. Not sure, but worth thinking about.





strangestdude said:


> You and I have radically different notions of narcissistic and psychopathic personalities.
> 
> I think that they can often be passive-aggressive as often as they are aggressive, but I definitely wouldn't say passive is an adjective to use in respect to narcs and psychopaths.
> 
> These are the characteristics of those personalities;


Passive people are probably the most accurate description of “nice guy” to me. I do not like passivity. To go to the above two quoted posts:

Passive men often become the extremely codependent partners to Narcissist women (and vice versa, I’m sure).



I agree, passive often also means passive-aggressive. I have some pretty nasty experiences with an NPD woman and her codependent spouse. While he couldn’t make a decision without her say-so, he could surely say the nastiest passive-aggressive things to me when he was involving himself in her crazy drama.
But yes, the NPD or Psychopathic person can come across as sickly-sweet nice. It often takes a minute to recognize the insidious nature of these folks.
So the “nice guy” as passive person…that I can understand. Otherwise, I like decent people. Especially decent men. If they’re sincere, that’s charming.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

I'm going to go with Maggie Thatcher's old quote "Being powerful is like being a lady, if you have to tell people you are, you aren't". 

Going from that first video, who wants to be the chicken of people?


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## Bat (Jul 21, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> I also think that some women see nice as boring, and highly value excitement in a relationship.


What does "nice" actually mean, though? Pleasant? Inoffensive? If this is the case, you're probably right that some women see nice as boring - as do some men. I never saw the women of my acquaintance who were merely pleasant and inoffensive have men flock to them unless they had some other attractive qualities as well.

I think we are attributing some behaviors to gender that are actually not gender specific. I've been hearing The Nice Guy's Lament for forty years - only I used to hear it mostly from girls and women. I came to the conclusion it's whiny and pointless bullshit back then and I haven't seen anything recently that's changed my mind.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Although this image is about comparing apes to personality disorders I think it can help define things.
"Nice guys" are supposed to be the bonobos, Prosocial, shy, dependent, pretty much to anyone living in modern society an unattractive male, apparently. To a lesser extent than the image suggests because it's making a comparison to personality disorders, that's the idea of a "nice guy". Low confidence but out to help others.
"Assholes" are supposed to be the chimpanzees, antisocial, sociable(yes antisocial behavior is not isolating yourself from everyone else in this terminology, that would be asocial in this case) and they are aggressive and strong. This is according to the people who were saying "psychopaths should rule the world" because the opposite of being Prosocial is being a psychopath. 
I just thought this image would shed some light. And some people actually despise the traits of a Prosocial bonobo because it's not very individualistic which is an idea that western society really brings onto people. 
It's also worth noting that bonobos live in societies dominated by females and chimps live in societies dominated by males. Which makes "nice guys" catering to the females in a sense, and "assholes" cater to themselves and as a result get others to cater to them as well. But we all have different views, I assume someone more like a chimp wouldn't like behavior more like a bonobo and vice versa.


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## Bat (Jul 21, 2012)

The problem with that analogy is that apparently bonobos have a lot of sex all of the time.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Bat said:


> The problem with that analogy is that apparently bonobos have a lot of sex all of the time.


True. They use it as an alternative conflict. Chimps go to war often and what not. Humans dislike promiscuity and they engage in conflict. Not to say these are the antithesis to each other unless "Make love not war" comes to mind. Bonobos have sex with each other whether they are female and female whatever just to calm things down in a way. My idea is that bonobo like personality wouldn't be appreciated in a chimp personality favoring society which is why there there would be less sex.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Bat said:


> What does "nice" actually mean, though? Pleasant? Inoffensive? If this is the case, you're probably right that some women see nice as boring - as do some men.


I think most women.



> I never saw the women of my acquaintance who were merely pleasant and inoffensive have men flock to them unless they had some other attractive qualities as well.


I doubt guys not pursuing them had anything to do with them being nice. 

When guys initially pursue a woman IMO it's based on attraction and rapport. I think an above averagely attractive and nice woman is many guys dream - we generally don't require 'an edge'.



> I think we are attributing some behaviors to gender that are actually not gender specific.


I don't think anyone is saying there aren't nice gals as well as nice guys. 

However the cultural norm in dating is that men pursue and women select, and like I said I think men are more accepting and appreciative of niceness more than women are. So nice guys and ex-nice guys are more likely to complain about their challenges in dating. Women tend to complain that they can't attract the men they want, men tend to complain that they can't attract women.



> I've been hearing The Nice Guy's Lament for forty years - only I used to hear it mostly from girls and women.


Interesting.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Humans dislike promiscuity


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

Iamtp said:


> -Canadians? Australians? Everyone loves Canadians and Australians (half joking on this one but we are really generalizing the whole male population here). I've got two male Aussie cousins who plenty of women would want to jump but they are really shy, unaggressive types.


Canadian men in general aren't aggressive. But they don't let women walk all over them either. I'm married to one.


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