# codependency and type



## snowwhisper

I'm wondering if some NF's are more likely to be codependent than others? It seems, from what I've read, that codependency is found most often in INFJs? Are INFP's, or other Nf's, just as likely to be codependent?


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## strawberryLola

I used to be extremely relationship co-dependent. I lost my father at a young age, and admit, I still want to find someone who was just like him.. a part of me yearns for that connection. I know it's an issue I need to work on.

For over 10 years, I was in and out of long-term relationships where I knew weren't going anywhere, even if I did not want it to go anywhere. It was my way of filling in the void I felt, an ignorance of mine that I did not wake up to until I lost pieces of myself, and whom I was.

I think it's still hard for me to deal with even until today. I feel so much better having moved on from those feelings of 'co-dependency,' and a bit more grounded. Although I miss having a partner in my life, and have mini-relationships here and there, I still need to work on it. 

Maybe it is a feeling experienced with different temperaments, depending on our early childhood experiences which have been so deeply ingrained, yet so unconscious.


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## Jwing24

I have no idea about others. But yes I have found that a lot of my relationships have been like this, probably because I'm insecure about being around other people often. I view this as a personal character flaw.


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## rowingineden

The most codependent people I can think of have been ESxPs and INTJs. But I think codependency is a completely separate factor from personality. It's more about a personal history/overall maturity.


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## snowwhisper

rowingineden said:


> The most codependent people I can think of have been ESxPs and INTJs. But I think codependency is a completely separate factor from personality. It's more about a personal history/overall maturity.


That makes sense to me. It makes me wonder, though, if MBTI might be connected to the reasons someone is codependent or how it manifests for an individual?


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## rowingineden

snowwhisper said:


> That makes sense to me. It makes me wonder, though, if MBTI might be connected to the reasons someone is codependent or how it manifests for an individual?


Well, I think self-awareness might not be as much present in ESxPs and INTJs. You know, extroverts might have more trouble identifying the difference between their natural just lust to be around people and get to know people than other types, and INTJs just tend to be very intense sometimes (lacking experience with their Feeling, they don't know how to moderate and manage it well yet).


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## snowwhisper

rowingineden said:


> Well, I think self-awareness might not be as much present in ESxPs and INTJs. You know, extroverts might have more trouble identifying the difference between their natural just lust to be around people and get to know people than other types, and INTJs just tend to be very intense sometimes (lacking experience with their Feeling, they don't know how to moderate and manage it well yet).


This is very helpful  Ever since I was a baby, I've 'known' it was my job to make my mom happy. Somehow this "job" transferred to society as a whole until I believed my only reason for existence was to take care of everyone. I thought I was an extrovert for a long time as a result (I still get confused about this), but the way I attempt to care for others doesn't seem extroverted (for example, feeling other's feelings as though they are my own in an effort to show them someone understands.) Does this sound more INFP or INFJ...or could this be either type? Thanks.


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## rowingineden

snowwhisper said:


> This is very helpful  Ever since I was a baby, I've 'known' it was my job to make my mom happy. Somehow this "job" transferred to society as a whole until I believed my only reason for existence was to take care of everyone. I thought I was an extrovert for a long time as a result (I still get confused about this), but the way I attempt to care for others doesn't seem extroverted (for example, feeling other's feelings as though they are my own in an effort to show them someone understands.) Does this sound more INFP or INFJ...or could this be either type? Thanks.


Generally caretaking is more directly associated with extroverted Feeling (Fe), which is the kind of Feeling both ENFJs and INFJs use.

However, introverted Feeling (Fi), which is both INFPs' kind of Feeling and ENFPs' kind, can also be very empathetic and interested in caretaking.

The best way to explain is that Fe is Feeling oriented externally, turned outward, so a lot of times, it cares for and prioritizes what is good and right for the group. It cares a lot about group harmony and making other people feel cared about, things like that. They are more likely to adopt the values of a group, or adjust their own expression of their values to better suit a group.

Fi may care about those things, but it is different because it is oriented internally, turned inward. So, Fi understands things from a perspective of its own emotion experiences and preferences, and applies them to create a moral framework to live by. Usually Fi moral frameworks are so complex that they are very hard to explain and it would probably take a very long time to do so. Fi users care about what is right, and don't really care about the group directly.

I hope I made that clear enough.


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## Linnifae

I definitely have co dependent moments during bouts of depression. When I'm happy I'm fairly independent.


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## newjessie

Thank you for your post.
I am an INFJ. I read that INFJ's can be codependent so I got some books on it and had a look at my own tendencies. I thought I was probably more codependent when I was young or when stressed and insecure. 
I started to pay more attention to it in others. I have two NF friends (the three of us are mutual friends and go out for lunch or coffee sometimes). The INFP friend has issues from childhood and needs a lot of nurturing. I find that the ENFJ friend really does a lot of 'babying' of the INFP friend to the point where I am saying to myself, 'If anyone ever handled me like that I would be horrified.' But the INFP soaks it up. In conversations between the two of us, she talks a lot about appreciating people being supportive of her. I don't consider this kind of 'babying' from friends to be a sign of support. I think it crosses the line and comes across as the ENFJ being superior and 'look at me, aren't I a saint?' 
I don't really know any more what to do for my INFP friend as she becomes more needy (and demanding). Her expectations that others will take care of her and her feelings of entitlement are having the effect of making me want to keep a lot of distance. 
She has suffered a lot of losses and I feel compassionate but am wary of her becoming dependent on me (she needed a place to live and hinted about moving in with me and my husband. 
In true NF fashion (codependent fashion?), I battled that in my mind: 'Is this expected of me as a friend? Am I cold-hearted if I don't do this?' I appreciated being rescued from all this by my husband who is an NT. I would have decided that the correct response was no, I would not allow her to move in, but my conscience was helped out by husband's rational view of things. He has been through this kind of thing with his own friends. Other people's pain and suffering tends to break my heart but the rational side of me (and I have a wide streak of this) pushes me to move on from ideas of saving them from themselves.


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## Animus Tigridis

snowwhisper said:


> I'm wondering if some NF's are more likely to be codependent than others? It seems, from what I've read, that codependency is found most often in INFJs? Are INFP's, or other Nf's, just as likely to be codependent?


I look at it from a different perspective. I see no value in the MBTI as a definitional system of personalities, merely as an indicator of state of life, and from that perspective, codependent people are more likely to tests as NFs.


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## newjessie

You really don't give enough information. Could you back up your beliefs and explain a little more. For example, what do you mean by 'state of life?' You identify yourself as an INFJ but yet say you seem to say that you don't believe in the system.


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## newjessie

Also, I don't agree at all that codependents generally type as NF's. 
My understanding is that anybody with a drinking problem or other addiction would be codependent and the people who are their parents, siblings, spouses, etc., who must live with them or be in relationship to them, end up in the crazy-making situation of trying to deal with them. Reacting with emotion to the craziness of someone else's behaviours sets a person up for codependency. 
Think children raised in dysfunctional homes with a mentally ill parent. Survivial means adapting to the mentally ill person's life schema. 
That's how codependency gets set up, in my understanding. Not all people in unchosen relationship to addicts and those with a mental illness severe enough to cause very strong defences are NF's. 
Would an NF be more inclined to reach out to those needing care and therefore end up in a relationship with a codependent? From what I know about it and looking at my own personal experience as an INFJ, I would say yes. At least until you learn the hard way, as I have, that the best friendships are made from shared interests, and both having something to offer. Your own needs have to be a consideration. 
Maybe someone could supply us with a good working definition of codependency. That way we could have a more interesting discussion because we would all be on the same page.


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## Animus Tigridis

@newjessie

It's what I tested as once upon a time, but it's come to mean very little to me. 

While some people fall prey to definitional systems of personality, seeing everything through this singular lense, depending on its accuracy for a sense of belonging, bending themselves to it, there is still value here, and the value I see in it is that it can serve as a starting point for some people to introspection, asking themselves questions that facilitate mindfulness, increasing their awareness of themselves. That's it. I'm fond of people on a journey of introspection, of self discovery. That's a good thing. 

Alright, so what do I mean by state of life. 

First let us clarify that the MBTI is based on principles that have been falsified decades ago. Pit a behaviorist against a jungian and lets see who has the better results with their patients. Spoiler alert: It's going to be the behaviorist that's embraced the empirical process of the scientific method as a foundation of their work. Jung predates the appliance of the scientific method. He rejected objectivity. He was a philosopher, not a scientist. We left his ideas behind when psychology became more than a philosophy in the same way we left behind the idea that the sun revolves around the earth. We call him a giant on whose shoulders others stand not because of the answers he gave to questions he posed, but because he was among the first to both pose and tackle these questions at all.

When you unveil yourself of this perception of cognitive functions and their order you find universal behaviors and attributes. You'll find emotional detachment, intellectualization, attention seeking behavior, esteem, compassion, all the emotions we feel, all the thoughts we have, all the ways we think, and relate, everything we need, everything we want, every way in which we behave, it's all universal. We all follow the same rules, all play the same game, dictated by the same chemicals, by the same processes. We all have mirror neurons. Unless we're brain damaged we're all capable of deep empathy. 

So, what do I mean by state of life... well, let me give you one example. There was an estj, who wasn't really an estj, because there is really no such thing an estj. Instead, he was a guy who was emotionally stunted, who suffered from arrested development for various reasons, who suffered the consequences of burnout, the detachment that comes with it. Had I just accepted him as this thing in a box, seeing him through the eyes of the MBTI, instead of seeing dysfunctional behavior that needed work, he'd likely still be unable to connect to his needs, to communicate them, and then have them met. Acceptance of behaviors that are self destructive is a bad thing.

There are a lot of dysfunctional behaviors that are glorified as intrinsic traits within this definitional system, like avoidance coping and isfjs, or crappy emotional boundaries, or control behaviors, and those behaviors that coincide with codependency, you'll tend to find people with clusters of them gravitate towards NF, people who have problems easily answering the question "where do I begin, and where do others stop".


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## newjessie

Your 'state of life' makes me think of the Enneagram and the levels of development. There is a line in one of the Enneagram books I have written by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson, The Wisdom of the Enneagram, that says that recognizing our type is the starting point only. It tells us only which box we are in. What we are supposed to do with that is to go on and seek spiritual growth (or psychological health, improved mental health, etc.) by working on the traits that define our particular box. The idea is to basically get over ourselves by recognizing what our ego is up to. 
If your ego doesn't have a whole lot of defenses and you are a self-aware person (and you are comfortable being you and happy, and probably most importantly, you don't have a whole lot of issues with other people) you will be at one of the three healthy levels. If you are less self-aware and you defend yourself in the typical ways of your type, you are likely at one of the three average levels. If you are functioning at one of the three lower levels, then you aren't getting along well with others, you aren't happy and you have some pretty heavy duty defenses. 
If you have had a troubled childhood (perhaps your ESTJ friend fits here), then your starting point will likely be at one of the lower levels. A healthy ESTJ would not stand out as a pain to other people. He would be harder for anyone to type because he wouldn't be acting out and would come across as someone just as nice as anybody else. 
I have an ESTJ relative. She does not function at a very high level. The only time I saw her with her defenses down was after she had surgery and was on morphine. I got a fascinating glimpse of the very nice person she could, one day, be. I would love to see that.
Personally I really see the value in both typologies. But both need to be studied deeply, beyond just being able to identify yourself and your friends and family members. We all deserve more than to have others just see us in the box we are in presently. 
As INFJ's, we are supposed to be the 'counselors,' the ones who can help others see their potential.
INFJ's by the way are often Enneagram Ones who are great at seeing others' flaws (being critical). It is a high-functioning One who has aimed that laser vision at themselves. That's the painful start for all of us. But starting on that path, healing ourselves, and seeing just how much discipline and work it takes to do that, makes us more accepting of others. And the more you accept them, the easier it will be for them to be their best selves, at least around you. 
That's my take for what it's worth.


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