# Martial Arts Pricing



## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi y'all,

I'm moving to New Orleans in a month, and I want to get into martial arts (particularly Shaolin Kung-Fu and Tai Chi).

I found a school that seems incredibly legit. I emailed the shifu, and he told me that his current "special" rate is $250/3 months of unlimited classes (he's allowing me to take a free class before I make a decision).

For any of those who go to a martial arts school, is this fairly priced or severely overpriced?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> Hi y'all,
> 
> I'm moving to New Orleans in a month, and I want to get into martial arts (particularly Shaolin Kung-Fu and Tai Chi).
> 
> ...


That actually sounds inexpensive compared to more structured martial arts where you progress by earning belts. I think something like Kung-Fu and Tai Chi you're expected to practice it continually so that might explain the lower price.

FWIW, when I was a kid, going from white belt to 1st degree black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do was $1k and was expected to take about a year depending on your skill and proficiency.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

$250/ 3 months sounds like a extortion, especially considering it's shoalin kung fu and taichi, none of which are respected in the realm of martial arts. They're closer too dancing unless you go to a temple and become a monk.
I train 3-4 times a week for the equivalent of $100 every 3 months. Look for something that's semi to full contact.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> $250/ 3 months sounds like a extortion, especially considering it's shoalin kung fu and taichi, none of which are respected in the realm of martial arts. They're closer too dancing unless you go to a temple and become a monk.
> I train 3-4 times a week for the equivalent of $100 every 3 months. Look for something that's semi to full contact.


Hm, interesting. Taichi isn't really a martial art and Kung Fu does supposedly take forever to master. What would you recommend for an unstructured martial art? Something the opposite of taekwondo or karate and preferably nothing street-fighting oriented like jiu-jitsu.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

MNiS said:


> Hm, interesting. Taichi isn't really a martial art and Kung Fu does supposedly take forever to master. What would you recommend for an unstructured martial art? Something the opposite of taekwondo or karate and preferably nothing street-fighting oriented like jiu-jitsu.


Jiu Jitsu isn't street fighting oriented. For general martial arts I'd recommend following this chart (was made as a spoof but is actually accurate).


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> Jiu Jitsu isn't street fighting oriented. For general martial arts I'd recommend following this chart (was made as a spoof but is actually accurate).


When I was evaluating it, it seemed like the perfect art for street fighting. Two people have a dispute and the correct person is the one who doesn't end up being choked out. 

Thanks. However, I'd fall under the "Other" category on that flowchart. :\

I'll probably just learn something new just to say that I have and focus more on the discipline and respect aspect of the martial arts in addition to being a good way to stay fit. :\


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

MNiS said:


> That actually sounds inexpensive compared to more structured martial arts where you progress by earning belts. I think something like Kung-Fu and Tai Chi you're expected to practice it continually so that might explain the lower price.
> 
> FWIW, when I was a kid, going from white belt to 1st degree black belt in Tae-Kwon-Do was $1k and was expected to take about a year depending on your skill and proficiency.


I'm sorry to tell you this but you were victim of a Mcdojo scam...let me guess...ATA right?
No kid should ever be able to become black belt, pretty much every legit martial art federation requires every black belt to be at least 18 years old. A black belt is also reached in at least 4 years of training, not 1, the ATA loves handing black belts like candy to kids aged 10-13 (and charge them a sweet buck for it) and it's a huge problem because these kids go into the streets with fake confidence...It's not rare to hear stories about an ATA "black belt" who got his ass whooped on a street fight because he was trained at a mcdojo.



Dragunov said:


> Jiu Jitsu isn't street fighting oriented. For general martial arts I'd recommend following this chart (was made as a spoof but is actually accurate).


As a Krav Maga practitioner, I very much disagree with that chart.

The whole reason why you learn KM is to defend yourself, so if you go into KM classes without wanting to learn how to fight, then you're doing something really wrong.

And the physical training in KM is brutal, so I dont think it's suitable for a person who does not want to sweat.

The chart is meant to be a joke, I know, and it should stay that way, just saying.


As for the OP: 250 dollars sounds seriously expensive for shaolin kung fu and tai chi...


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> I'm sorry to tell you this but you were victim of a Mcdojo scam...let me guess...ATA right?
> No kid should ever be able to become black belt, pretty much every legit martial art federation requires every black belt to be at least 18 years old. A black belt is also reached in at least 4 years of training, not 1, the ATA loves handing black belts like candy to kids aged 10-13 (and charge them a sweet buck for it) and it's a huge problem because these kids go into the streets with fake confidence...It's not rare to hear stories about an ATA "black belt" who got his ass whooped on a street fight because he was trained at a mcdojo.


Yes, I agree that martial arts in the US is really watered down. For children it's more about teaching discipline than about learning how to fight. 

If you want to learn actual hand-to-hand you're going to have to join the military and that's not something I want to do at this point in my life.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

MNiS said:


> When I was evaluating it, it seemed like the perfect art for street fighting. Two people have a dispute and the correct person is the one who doesn't end up being choked out.
> 
> Thanks. However, I'd fall under the "Other" category on that flowchart. :\
> 
> I'll probably just learn something new just to say that I have and focus more on the discipline and respect aspect of the martial arts in addition to being a good way to stay fit. :\



Jiu jitsu is probably the closest you'll get to self defense (that is not self defense) on martial arts.

Problem with jiu jitsu is that they don't really teach you to react to surprise attacks, or multiple opponents. That's why it's not meant to be used for self defense, or street fights, but it can work, it can be pretty useful.

BJJ however is another story, you DO NOT want to defend yourself from a robbery or just a regular street fight with BJJ, unless you like having your head being used as a soccer ball by the attacker's friends.


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

Ah, I was worried about this. Differing viewpoints.

What I've read speaking to friends who are senseis and shifus, the best "self-defense" martial arts is, indeed, kung fu, and tai chi is actually more advanced than kung fu. 

Here is the link of the place:
* *





New Orleans Martial Arts - Shaolin-Do


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

MNiS said:


> Yes, I agree that martial arts in the US is really watered down. For children it's more about teaching discipline than about learning how to fight.
> 
> If you want to learn actual hand-to-hand you're going to have to join the military and that's not something I want to do at this point in my life.


Not really, there are plenty of legit martial arts schools out there. The thing is that you have to know martial arts are divided in 3 styles:

Competitive

Recreational

Self defense.

most MAs are competitive, like TKD, Judo or MMA, then there are recreational which are more about meditating and exercising than they are about fighting, like tai chi or aikido. Then there's self defense which focus on exactly that, and disencourages dragging out fights, like in Krav maga, silat, or systema.

as far as TKD goes, in the US, the WTF is pretty legit, just stay away from the ATA.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> As a Krav Maga practitioner, I very much disagree with that chart.
> 
> The whole reason why you learn KM is to defend yourself, so if you go into KM classes without wanting to learn how to fight, then you're doing something really wrong.
> 
> ...


What does your average Krav Maga class consist of? 

My main gripe is that it teaches strategy instead of certain techniques, so the students are going to be mediocre in most aspects and wont be able to properly employ their strategies against a trained attacker.


SharpestNiFe said:


> Ah, I was worried about this. Differing viewpoints.
> 
> What I've read speaking to friends who are senseis and shifus, the best "self-defense" martial arts is, indeed, kung fu, and tai chi is actually more advanced than kung fu.
> 
> ...


They're either pulling your leg or are delusional, the only legit kung fu is Sanda/Sanhou which is essentially kickboxing with throws. Your friends are sensies/shifus so of course they're going to say that, get advice from people who compete full contact.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> Jiu jitsu is probably the closest you'll get to self defense (that is not self defense) on martial arts.
> 
> Problem with jiu jitsu is that they don't really teach you to react to surprise attacks, or multiple opponents. That's why it's not meant to be used for self defense, or street fights, but it can work, it can be pretty useful.
> 
> BJJ however is another story, you DO NOT want to defend yourself from a robbery or just a regular street fight with BJJ, unless you like having your head being used as a soccer ball by the attacker's friends.


Oh, I agree. Grappling and energy fighting has its limitations on the street. No one is going to engage you one at a time. It's going to be bum rush and a lot of kicking a person while they're on the ground. That's assuming no one brought a weapon too... But I suppose that's where using your head comes into the situation. You shouldn't ever be caught in a you vs a mob situation to begin with.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> Ah, I was worried about this. Differing viewpoints.
> 
> What I've read speaking to friends who are senseis and shifus, the best "self-defense" martial arts is, indeed, kung fu, and tai chi is actually more advanced than kung fu.
> 
> ...


It's really hard to tell which MA is better for self defense. I dont know about you but tai chi to me seems more focused on meditation and "spiritual fitness", than kung fu. Kung fu is by no means bad, but you'd have to be pretty skilled in kung fu to defend yourself using it. and you'd pretty much have to be a monk to master it. My KM instructor is a kung fu black belt, he did it for 12 years if im not mistaken, and he still preffers krav maga over kung fu because he says that krav maga is far more realistic and effective than kung fu (the guy is a former spec ops btw, so he definitely knows what he is saying).


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> What does your average Krav Maga class consist of?
> 
> My main gripe is that it teaches strategy instead of certain techniques, so the students are going to be mediocre in most aspects and wont be able to properly employ their strategies against a trained attacker.
> 
> They're either pulling your leg or are delusional, the only legit kung fu is Sanda/Sanhou which is essentially kickboxing with throws. Your friends are sensies/shifus so of course they're going to say that, get advice from people who compete full contact.


There are A LOT of fake KM academies out there, you always have to check that your academy is under the wing of an israeli federation, and that it's certified by it.
I train under the IKMF.

The average class consists on a period of cardio, calisthenics and aerobics to limber up. Then we view technique, typically its 1 technique per class, sometimes 2, depends on how much time we have, we also look at variants. And a bit of sparring in the end.

And you have the wrong impression. KM focuses on muscular memory and reactions, its "universal" so to speak, you'll be able to defend yourself from both skilled and unskilled attackers. True we have strategies, it's very important, but we don't spend half the class talking about strategies, they're usually discussed while viewing the technique. Most of the class is a dynamic practice of the technique we saw.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> There are A LOT of fake KM academies out there, you always have to check that your academy is under the wing of an israeli federation, and that it's certified by it.
> I train under the IKMF.
> 
> The average class consists on a period of cardio, calisthenics and aerobics to limber up. Then we view technique, typically its 1 technique per class, sometimes 2, depends on how much time we have, we also look at variants. And a bit of sparring in the end.
> ...


What about sparring?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> Not really, there are plenty of legit martial arts schools out there. The thing is that you have to know martial arts are divided in 3 styles:
> 
> Competitive
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's really helpful. I was interested in Krav Maga when I first heard of it but I've never met a very good ambassador for the art-form. A few years ago, I learned TKD has a combat form so I've been trying to find more info on that but there's very little in the way in the US in terms of solid information, let alone training.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> What about sparring?


What about it?



MNiS said:


> Thanks, that's really helpful. I was interested in Krav Maga when I first heard of it but I've never met a very good ambassador for the art-form. A few years ago, I learned TKD has a combat form so I've been trying to find more info on that but there's very little in the way in the US in terms of solid information, let alone training.


I reckon it might be hard to find a legit KM academy in the US  

But KM IS a military style, sure it's fitted for civilian use (that doesn't mean its watered down though) but it's still pretty brutal, I've had experience with several martial arts and I can say that KM is the most realistic one and effective I've seen thus far.

I wouldn't know a thing about combat TKD though, can't help you there. Have you thought about muay thai?


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> What about it?


Do your sessions involve sparring?


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

I mean first and foremost, I'm doing this for physical and mental health. I don't plan on carrying my gym with me to New Orleans, and I don't have the time, patience, or funds to join a conventional gym (I know MA memberships are more expensive, but it's more convenient for what I'm looking for -- otherwise I'd have to join a gym, a yoga studio, run outside, y'know).

So in order of importance, this is what I'm looking for:
1. Physical fitness -- including lean muscle growth, cardiovascular health, flexibility and balance
2. Mental health -- I like the idea of meditation, but one cannot deny the mental benefits of doing, say, yoga. I'm looking for the same sort of thing from my martial art.
3. Self-Defense -- because who DOESN'T want to learn how to defend themselves and look cool while doing it?
4. Something fun -- I don't want to dread going to class everyday. Difficulty is not a concern to me, but I don't want to do something I'd find incredibly dull.
5. Spiritual growth -- I'm not looking for anything religious, but this could, perhaps, tie in with mental growth.

I also don't mind sparring. Mind you, my profession requires me not to look beaten up, but otherwise, I'm OK with sparring, and I won't be ashamed if a girl younger than I am kicks my ass (looking at me, physically, I should be able to take any lady down). That's part of the process, in my books.

Suggestions?

So we're going with $250/3months is a ridiculous price? I wonder if I email him and tell him that I can't pay that much if he'll lower it for me...


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> I reckon it might be hard to find a legit KM academy in the US
> 
> But KM IS a military style, sure it's fitted for civilian use (that doesn't mean its watered down though) but it's still pretty brutal, I've had experience with several martial arts and I can say that KM is the most realistic one and effective I've seen thus far.
> 
> I wouldn't know a thing about combat TKD though, can't help you there. Have you thought about muay thai?


Yeah, KM seems brutal enough to be an effective deterrent and teaching how to disarm an opponent with a gun or knife would be the most useful part to me.

Yeah, I doubt I'll ever find anything about the combat form of TKD. The competition form is just way too popular. I've considered muay thai but kicking the corner of a dumpster 200 times a day to harden your shins doesn't seem like my kind of training. lol


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> Do your sessions involve sparring?


I had already said yes :wink:. But it's not strictly sparring, as in say, TKD sparring or MMA sparring, where a soft fight occurs and scores are given and such. Because of the nature of KM, you can't really have a "fair fight" with someone, usually the first to use it will win, defending yourself with KM shouldn't take you longer than 4 seconds, otherwise you're dragging out the fight and you're putting yourself at risk.

But at the end of the class, we do practice some form of sparring to review combinations and counter attacks.


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

SharpestNiFe said:


> I mean first and foremost, I'm doing this for physical and mental health. I don't plan on carrying my gym with me to New Orleans, and I don't have the time, patience, or funds to join a conventional gym (I know MA memberships are more expensive, but it's more convenient for what I'm looking for -- otherwise I'd have to join a gym, a yoga studio, run outside, y'know).
> 
> So in order of importance, this is what I'm looking for:
> 1. Physical fitness -- including lean muscle growth, cardiovascular health, flexibility and balance
> ...


Going by that list Kung Fu is not what your looking for.
Refer to the chart I posted earlier.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> I mean first and foremost, I'm doing this for physical and mental health. I don't plan on carrying my gym with me to New Orleans, and I don't have the time, patience, or funds to join a conventional gym (I know MA memberships are more expensive, but it's more convenient for what I'm looking for -- otherwise I'd have to join a gym, a yoga studio, run outside, y'know).
> 
> So in order of importance, this is what I'm looking for:
> 1. Physical fitness -- including lean muscle growth, cardiovascular health, flexibility and balance
> ...



You will never develop signifficant lean muscle with a martial art. that's only going to happen with weights and a diet, the thing that COULD happen is tonification of the muscles, you will become stronger, but this will be because of muscular potency, not because of lean muscle growth.

I don't really know of a self defense style that also has a spiritual part...so I can't help you there...


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> I had already said yes :wink:. But it's not strictly sparring, as in say, TKD sparring or MMA sparring, where a soft fight occurs and scores are given and such. Because of the nature of KM, you can't really have a "fair fight" with someone, usually the first to use it will win, defending yourself with KM shouldn't take you longer than 4 seconds, otherwise you're dragging out the fight and you're putting yourself at risk.
> 
> But at the end of the class, we do practice some form of sparring to review combinations and counter attacks.


So it's not conventional sparring, it's essentially one touch 4 second kill fights which is what I was getting at when I called it ineffective, it leaves no room for self discovery or instinct. Maybe effective if you already have a base but on it's own I don't see "too deadly to spar" styles as credible.


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> You will never develop signifficant lean muscle with a martial art. that's only going to happen with weights and a diet, the thing that COULD happen is tonification of the muscles, you will become stronger, but this will be because of muscular potency, not because of lean muscle growth.
> 
> I don't really know of a self defense style that also has a spiritual part...so I can't help you there...


Spiritual part is a bonus. If there is nothing, then that's OK.

I'm already fairly built, but I'm not looking for something that is exclusively cardio/plyometric. If there is SOME muscular work, I'll probably lean out and get what I want physically.

Also, @Dragunov, the flow chart led me to two possibilities (didn't know whether I wanted to strike or not). One way took me to Kyokushin Karate, the other way took me to Judo.

A friend of mine well versed in fighting styles told me I have the body to be successful in Muay Thai.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> So it's not conventional sparring, it's essentially one touch 4 second kill fights which is what I was getting at when I called it ineffective, it leaves no room for self discovery or instinct. Maybe effective if you already have a base but on it's own I don't see "too deadly to spar" styles as credible.


That's where you're wrong. There is a LOT of instinct developed in krav maga. 

Let me put up an example: The other day we were practicing a knife disarm for when someone pulls a knife to your neck. It's kind of hard to describe with words, but anyway, thing is once the attacker's hand was away, I had to control the wrist of the attacker, but while he struggled, I accidentally let go of his wrist. then I immediatly reacted with a completely spontaneous action (not a random reaction but one learned through observation in the class, in other words I responded with krav maga, but not a "scripted" technique) and safely got hold of the arm again and was in a safe position again and managed to finish the technique with my own spontaneous variant.

That's instinct, when you know what to do despite things not "following the book". I've also seen it happen a bunch of time with different people. Sometimes during gun disarms, some people instinctly pull the gun away, which is something a real crook could do, and the defenders react accordingly and defend themselves from the "crook's" reaction.

Like my instructor says: KM is a tactical system, you learn how to adapt it to your current need. It is not a "scripted" martial art like aikido where attacks done by uke need to be perfectly identical to what has always been practiced so taht nage can defend succesfully.


I personally like most videos from this channel, I don't train with these guys but it's a legit school and they are up to date with the techniques we use as well.

have a look


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> Spiritual part is a bonus. If there is nothing, then that's OK.
> 
> I'm already fairly built, but I'm not looking for something that is exclusively cardio/plyometric. If there is SOME muscular work, I'll probably lean out and get what I want physically.
> 
> ...


If you have the legs for it, go muay thai. Just know the training is going to be painful unless that's changed since I last spoke with an instructor. Judo is a bunch of throws and karate is mostly using the fists.

If you want a spiritual/philosophical aspect to the MA then stick to the East Asian forms. They usually include an element of spiritualism in them. The Korean forms being an exception from what I can tell.

Oooor, you could be a medieval actor and teach yourself the proper behavior of a knight and chivalry. :laughing: Learning sword play always seemed fun to me.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> So it's not conventional sparring, it's essentially one touch 4 second kill fights which is what I was getting at when I called it ineffective, it leaves no room for self discovery or instinct. Maybe effective if you already have a base but on it's own I don't see "too deadly to spar" styles as credible.


That's where you're wrong. There is a LOT of instinct developed in krav maga. 

Let me put up an example: The other day we were practicing a knife disarm for when someone pulls a knife to your neck. It's kind of hard to describe with words, but anyway, thing is once the attacker's hand was away, I had to control the wrist of the attacker, but while he struggled, I accidentally let go of his wrist. then I immediatly reacted with a completely spontaneous action (not a random reaction but one learned through observation in the class, in other words I responded with krav maga, but not a "scripted" technique) and safely got hold of the arm again and was in a safe position again and managed to finish the technique with my own spontaneous variant.

That's instinct, when you know what to do despite things not "following the book". I've also seen it happen a bunch of time with different people. Sometimes during gun disarms, some people instinctly pull the gun away, which is something a real crook could do, and the defenders react accordingly and defend themselves from the "crook's" reaction.

Like my instructor says: KM is a tactical system, you learn how to adapt it to your current need. It is not a "scripted" martial art like aikido where attacks done by uke need to be perfectly identical to what has always been practiced so taht nage can defend succesfully.

The reason we don't have traditional sparring is because there is no point in trying to "water down" things just to have that kind of practice. In Krav Maga you can only make effective punches, there is no reason at all to for example, punch someone's shoulder or chest. Every punch is aimed at vulnerable spots, like nose, chin, temple, inner ear or solar plexus. If there were traditional sparring, it would mean we'd have to refrain from attacking those spots (because we're not gonna be breaking each other's noses on a sparring session) and change them for unnefective and fake attacks, which is not something you want to do while training muscle memory.

I personally like most videos from this channel, I don't train with these guys but it's a legit school and they are up to date with the techniques we use as well.

have a look


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## Dragunov (Oct 2, 2013)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> That's where you're wrong. There is a LOT of instinct developed in krav maga.
> 
> Let me put up an example: The other day we were practicing a knife disarm for when someone pulls a knife to your neck. It's kind of hard to describe with words, but anyway, thing is once the attacker's hand was away, I had to control the wrist of the attacker, but while he struggled, I accidentally let go of his wrist. then I immediatly reacted with a completely spontaneous action (not a random reaction but one learned through observation in the class, in other words I responded with krav maga, but not a "scripted" technique) and safely got hold of the arm again and was in a safe position again and managed to finish the technique with my own spontaneous variant.
> 
> ...


My point is that you develop the instinct to defend from a scripted attack, there's no live sparring which limits self discovery and the instincts developed. 

In that video you posted, learning techniques is all good and well but if you cant do it under stress then it's all useless, which is what live sparring teaches you.


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

MNiS said:


> If you have the legs for it, go muay thai. Just know the training is going to be painful unless that's changed since I last spoke with an instructor. Judo is a bunch of throws and karate is mostly using the fists.
> 
> If you want a spiritual/philosophical aspect to the MA then stick to the East Asian forms. They usually include an element of spiritualism in them. The Korean forms being an exception from what I can tell.
> 
> Oooor, you could be a medieval actor and teach yourself the proper behavior of a knight and chivalry. :laughing:


From what I understand (looking at that chart, at least), Muay Thai is an art more on the expensive end. Judo is intriguing. 
I used to do karate as a kid with a sensei who was, apparently, involved in a lot of bar fights and successfully defended himself against groups of much bigger guys, but, like an earlier poster said, I was a wimpy kid with a black belt, so hard to take that seriously. My little cousin's kung fu classes look like a joke to me (not the form, but just the style -- it looks a lot like a class you'd take at your local gym), but my best friend is a state champ in taekwando, so wherever he practiced must have been legit -- but aesthetically, I'm not a big fan of taekwando (kick after kick after kick -- no thank you).


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

Dragunov said:


> My point is that you develop the instinct to defend from a scripted attack, there's no live sparring which limits self discovery and the instincts developed.
> 
> In that video you posted, learning techniques is all good and well but if you cant do it under stress then it's all useless, which is what live sparring teaches you.


I honestly understand your skepticism towards it, I guess you'd have to see an actual class.
Like I said, in class there is a lot of room for self discovery, when either you or your partner mess up and the technique doesn't goes out smoothly, and that's when you realize that you're truly learning because you're able to react in an effective way.

I've already defended from "unscripted" attacks with KM so I know it works.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> From what I understand (looking at that chart, at least), Muay Thai is an art more on the expensive end. Judo is intriguing.
> I used to do karate as a kid with a sensei who was, apparently, involved in a lot of bar fights and successfully defended himself against groups of much bigger guys, but, like an earlier poster said, I was a wimpy kid with a black belt, so hard to take that seriously. My little cousin's kung fu classes look like a joke to me (not the form, but just the style -- it looks a lot like a class you'd take at your local gym), but my best friend is a state champ in taekwando, so wherever he practiced must have been legit -- but aesthetically, I'm not a big fan of taekwando (kick after kick after kick -- no thank you).


MT isn't more expensive than other martial arts. Dragunov himself said the chart was meant as a joke. 

TKD is one of the dearest martial arts in the USA, it approximately costs around 4k to get to black belt, and in that chart it isn't shown at the "expensive" path.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> From what I understand (looking at that chart, at least), Muay Thai is an art more on the expensive end. Judo is intriguing.
> I used to do karate as a kid with a sensei who was, apparently, involved in a lot of bar fights and successfully defended himself against groups of much bigger guys, but, like an earlier poster said, I was a wimpy kid with a black belt, so hard to take that seriously. My little cousin's kung fu classes look like a joke to me (not the form, but just the style -- it looks a lot like a class you'd take at your local gym), but my best friend is a state champ in taekwando, so wherever he practiced must have been legit -- but aesthetically, I'm not a big fan of taekwando (kick after kick after kick -- no thank you).


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I knew some people who grew up with kung fu and I wouldn't call them a joke in terms of both self-defense ability and first striking ability. I would certainly rank them higher in proficiency than people from mass marketed schools. I honestly can't say why Muay Thai would be expensive. Maybe there's more personal attention, I can't really say.

In the end, you go with what you want to do. Learning as a child is much different than learning as an adult. You're going to be better able to spot what's worth keeping and what you learn then toss out. There are going to be times when you'll be completely zapped of motivation and just going to class is going to take a real effort so you should go with something you really want to do because at least then you'll be learning something you're interested in.


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

MNiS said:


> I wouldn't be so sure about that. I knew some people who grew up with kung fu and I wouldn't call them a joke in terms of both self-defense ability and first striking ability. I would certainly rank them higher in proficiency than people from mass marketed schools. I honestly can't say why Muay Thai would be expensive. Maybe there's more personal attention, I can't really say.
> 
> In the end, you go with what you want to do. Learning as a child is much different than learning as an adult. You're going to be better able to spot what's worth keeping and what you learn then toss out. There are going to be times when you'll be completely zapped of motivation and just going to class is going to take a real effort so you should go with something you really want to do because at least then you'll be learning something you're interested in.


I also found a Krav Maga class with my search. It doesn't appear to be certified, and I emailed them regarding rates. I'm not necessarily looking for "top of the line" self-defense, but rather an OUTSTANDING workout (one that not your average Joe on the streets could get through on his first try), and self-defense ENOUGH that if someone were to physically attack me, I could do enough to disarm and get away. Also, the mental thing is still very important to me.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Like Bruce Lee said, 99% of martial arts are nonsense.

Muay Thai is a good mix of western boxing and eastern kicking shit. It's legit.

Judo is also very legit.

BJJ is legit.

good ol boxing and wrestling is great. kind of boring and grueling tho.

***** is interesting and useful, if you can find it.

capoeira seems interesting. don't know much about it tho.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> I also found a Krav Maga class with my search. It doesn't appear to be certified, and I emailed them regarding rates. I'm not necessarily looking for "top of the line" self-defense, but rather an OUTSTANDING workout (one that not your average Joe on the streets could get through on his first try), and self-defense ENOUGH that if someone were to physically attack me, I could do enough to disarm and get away. Also, the mental thing is still very important to me.


You might want to go with something a bit more aerobic then. I was watching a few videos on youtube of Krav Maga maneuvers and it seems very application focused. That's excellent if you want to learn exactly what you need to know to neutralize an opponent but you might also need to hit the gym and study other art-forms if you want something for cardio and the mind as well.

It seems really effective but personally I'd give up a bit in effectiveness for something a bit more elegant. Maybe that's just me though since I don't ever plan on actually using what I learn. Or maybe learn KM and something else that KM wasn't derived from. Hybridize an already hybrid MA.  Also, I've been told that Krav Maga is best suited for people who're on the larger side or if your opponent is roughly the same size as you; so that's something to keep in mind when sizing someone up and in choosing what you want to learn.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

SharpestNiFe said:


> I also found a Krav Maga class with my search. It doesn't appear to be certified, and I emailed them regarding rates. I'm not necessarily looking for "top of the line" self-defense, but rather an OUTSTANDING workout (one that not your average Joe on the streets could get through on his first try), and self-defense ENOUGH that if someone were to physically attack me, I could do enough to disarm and get away. Also, the mental thing is still very important to me.


That's the problem with fake "Krav maga", it doesn't even keeps its basic purpose.

Here is an example of a gun disarm technique I found a fake KM academy teaches:

Grabbing the barrel of the gun, and punching the attacker's hand until he lets go of it.

That's literally it, that's all they said, the bastard teaching that crap actually said to his students that if a guy ever pulls a loaded gun on them, they just gotta grab the barrel and punch the guy's hand. Never mind that he will be a fully functional human being who will be able to pull the trigger long before they can even get a hold on the gun, and even if they do, the gun IS NOT comming out by punching the hands, plus they're not even controlling the rest of his body, it's gonna end up with them dying.

I saw another one promoting a "jacket disarm" technique for a stabbing...seriously, it even pisses me off.
This is what would happen if you were to rely on that crap





Seriously, don't endanger yourself, if you want to learn self defense, then do it right, if you cant find a certified krav maga academy, then stick with something different, do not put yourself at risk with fake maga.


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

MNiS said:


> You might want to go with something a bit more aerobic then. I was watching a few videos on youtube of Krav Maga maneuvers and it seems very application focused. That's excellent if you want to learn exactly what you need to know to neutralize an opponent but you might also need to hit the gym and study other art-forms if you want something for cardio and the mind as well.
> 
> It seems really effective but personally I'd give up a bit in effectiveness for something a bit more elegant. Maybe that's just me though since I don't ever plan on actually using what I learn. Or maybe learn KM and something else that KM wasn't derived from. Hybridize an already hybrid MA.  Also, I've been told that Krav Maga is best suited for people who're on the larger side or if your opponent is roughly the same size as you; so that's something to keep in mind when sizing someone up and in choosing what you want to learn.


Krav maga focuses only on going after vital points, so it doesn't matter if you're not very physically strong, you'll still be able to pull the moves. In fact many moves have been removed/changed because they were thought to rely too much on brute strenght rather than form.
It's incredibly easy to break a wrist or disarm a gunman and it doesn't take much strenght to do it.

Also @Dragunov said something earlier and I wasn't able to explain properly because of my poor phrasing...but in krav maga, we do not learn to defend ourselves from scripted attacks, it is not like we say "oh, guy is performing attack number 1, I must then counter with technique number 5! oh he is performing an attack ive never seen, i cannot block this!", no it's not like that, we train to change natural reactions into techniques, techniques are also pretty universal in the sense that they will work with whatever form of the attack, not just an especific one. For example a 360 defense works against any kind of circular punch, and a scooping defense works against any type of straight kick, be it from a professional muay thai fighter or a random junkie looking for a fight.

In that sense, Krav maga can be instinctively applied to many defense situations, we are not script robots who cant react if its something we've never seen.


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## SharpestNiFe (Dec 16, 2012)

DasPhillipBrau said:


> That's the problem with fake "Krav maga", it doesn't even keeps its basic purpose.
> 
> Here is an example of a gun disarm technique I found a fake KM academy teaches:
> 
> ...



* *




Self Defense with Krav Maga | Krav Maga New Orleans - Fitness and Self Defense at Street Smarts




fake magra?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Body type is vital, tall lanky guy should use his limbs to his advantage and not get up close and personal vs a bulky stocky guy etc...

If your legs are long and your opponent is tall, you can kick him in the face.
If your legs are short and your opponent is tall, you need to jump to kick him in the face which is never good since it takes longer and is a dead giveaway when you are "preping" to jump kick etc...

Many martial arts share one common thing and that is to know the shortest path to you opponent so that you hit him faster.

If you know that you are a big bulky dude who is slower than say someone of Bruce Lee's size then don't go trying to out maneuver someone who is clearly faster and more flexible and have more stamina than you do. 

Of course you can attempt to learn any move regardless of your body type but do you really want to take your disadvantage and work on moves that aren't easy to execute due to your body type or would you rather look at your body type/physique and learn moves that compliment/emphasis your body type?

You don't see the more agile fighters trading blows with the hard hitting muscle heads, they stay the hell away and out maneuver them so obviously they will learn moves that revolve around hit and run, striking at a safe distance, moves that can't be punished but inflict smaller damage.

Big bulky muscle heads don't go around trying to dodge all your blows, striking at a safe distance, they try and get up close and personal and knock you out or grab you etc...


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## DasPhillipBrau (Apr 2, 2010)

You're talking about this as if it were a video game with balancing mechanics or something...

First of all: legs have an average size. There is usually not a signifficant difference in leg size between people of the same age, even if one is taller than the other one. Unless the other person has a skeletal deformity that would grant him longer limps.
So there aren't guys who won't be able to use kicks because "they are too bulky".

Secondly: You're assuming that you will always be fighting against the same opponents. Size is relative. A guy who is 1.80 might be considered small if he is facing a guy who is 1.95, so by your logic, that guy shouldn't have focused on kicking because he was small and wouldn't be able to reach people with his kicks. but what if he is facing a guy who is 1.65? He is screwed because he never practiced kicks, which would have give him a major advantage in a fight.

And again: You think that everyone should be a master at something from the beginning. And you think that this is a video game with balancing mechanics, that people have fixed stats, this is not the case.
The "skinny people are faster and more agile than people with bigger muscles!" stereotype is fake. I was mighty thin during my adolescence (weighed 48 kg till I was 17) and I was one of the slowest of the class, one of the clumsiest when it came to physical agility and terrible at physical condition. While at the same time there were even "fat guys" who ran faster than me and had more stamina than me.
You condition your body through training, that's exactly what training is for. When I began training krav maga, I couldn't get my leg past someone's knee. Now I can easily reach the solar plexus without effort. By your logic. I should have completely given up on kicks because I wasn't good at them at the beginning and thus would never be good at them.

Also I laughed at the "big bulky muscle dont try to dodge anything!". This is major oxymoron, I start to question your knowledge on this subject. Have you seen actual MMA fights? or even boxing? Do you know who butterbean is? Butterbean was fat as all hell, he had an amazing boxing record. He got into MMA and he had his ass handed to him so much that his performance record is beyond negative. Why? Because the guy thought that since he was so fat, he could take whatever amount of blows they gave him, and nearly everyone knocked him out. Because it doesn't matter if you're skinny or fat, if you get hit in a place like the temple or in the middle of your ear, you're going down, cold turkey.

I have never seen a succesful MMA fighter take that "heads on, no dodge because im strong" approach. Lashley is one of the most muscular guys I've seen in the UFC and he had a deluxe evading game.

I was gonna show you a video of a guy trying that logic (im big so i can get hit) but I can find it, so I'm just gonna describe it: Big muscular guy against relatively fit guy (still a large weight difference between the two). Big guy thinks he has already won, skinny throws a punch, connects with big guy, big guy literally laughs it off and makes a "come at me bro" motion with his hand while skinny literally throws a combination at his face. 2 seconds later big guy is blacks out, because he was dumb enough to believe this was some sort of video game and that he was a "tank" who could take a million hits before going down.

I'm sorry but at this point I'm seriously doubting your knowledge in MA or even the human body in general.


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