# INFJ's are put on a pedestal



## OliveBranch (Aug 30, 2017)

Every type has equal capability, and I've found because INFJ's are considered the rarest type (we do not know how accurate that statistic is), they are viewed as mystical and deeper than anyone else could ever comprehend. At the end of the day, the cognitive functions can result in an endless number of possibilities. Yes, INFJ's tend to be deep thinkers, but many other types are as well. They are often portrayed as the "perfect" or "ideal" type. Again a person's value or capability is never based on their type. They are also seen as being highly misunderstood, more than any other type. Nothing against INFJ's, I simply think this is just a common trend. People will take a specific type and stereotype the hell out of them, until they are nothing more than an idea.


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

INFJs have strong Fe, so technically that should mean they are emotionally expressive, concise in their communication and assertive about their needs. So this whole _''I'm misunderstood, weird and rejected for being different'' _thing that is constantly clamored and romanticized about them is a flat out contradiction.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

You are correct. 


@Stevester -- I think it is generally true that INFJs_ are seen as_ being misunderstood. I think it is also true that they often actually are --Ni often is (although the points you mentioned surely mitigate the issue-- except not sure that INFJs are generally the most assertive of types?). However, not all INFJs complain about or identify with being misunderstood.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

I've got a couple of issues with "INFJ" in general.


1 - they're either one of the most common types in the world, or there's a billion mistypes, the amount of them on this forum, on Facebook groups etc is absolutely ludicrous, they're the ants of the MBTI world.


2 - like @Stevester said - they use *Fe*. It's their *auxiliary *function. When you read about how misunderstood they are, how much they need time alone, how they can't do 'people' etc - you're reading the words of someone who is _not _an INFJ. INFJs are almost social butterflies. They are going to be almost the same as your stereotypical ISFJ soccer mum. They'll be the old lady volunteering at your schools canteen. They'll be the sole younger male carer at your grandmas retirement village. 
They will almost never be, the loner, emotional, 'misunderstood' blogger/writer stereotype - these people are mistypes.
Fe is a doing function and it requires people. They are not the independent nerdy INTJs. They are not the logical, childlike INTPs.
They'll appear closer to what you think is an ESFJ than an INFP.


3 - INFJ is almost a cult. 'They' have about a zillion blogs etc specifically for them, they have by far the most amount of Facebook pages etc dedicated to them. It's creepy. Due to this, if we were to pretend the INFJ image you have in your head, is actually what an INFJ is (it's not) - then they'd be the MOST EASILY understood type. There is nothing mysterious about hundreds and thousands of pages dedicated to INFJs specifically, and Ni.



4 - I have a theory that the longer someone is interested in typology, the higher their likelihood is of typing themselves as an INFJ. I've seen it time and time again. People who are clearly not an INFJ, wind up basically tunneling themselves into being one.
This is likely due to the fact Ni is so easy to relate to, everyone can make a claim for Ni dominant, and the whole 'misunderstood' vibe about INFJ in particular, it's like anyone who had a slightly iffy moment in their childhood thinks they're an INFJ.. which doesn't really fit.. also pay attention to people who want to be an INFJ when they're not - they'll make type me threads (not exclusively here on PerC) and defend arguments that suggest alternate functions to Ni-Fe-Ti-Se.

Also when people say they're an INFJ who leans a little more T than most, more logical - probably a T type then, right? Having a heart and not being a prick doesn't make you an F. Just like being a heartless prick doesn't make you a T.


5 - THEY USE FE. AGAIN. They're the ones volunteering for school captain or hall monitor. It's simply born into them, to be harmonious, probably conflict-averse - they'll be wanting to use Fe to make whatever Ni comes up with a reality.
The loner up the back of the bus was not an INFJ. The one sitting somewhere in the middle chatting to their friends, probably WAS - maybe even the ones up the very front. The quiet ones up the back, no, stop, mistyped.
The best friend of the guy who bullied you in school might have even been an INFJ, applying his Ni-Fe to his suggestions and ideas to please his dickhead mates. Notice he's still present, noticeable, Fe. Requires people. 


6 - if the bajillion of "INFJs" online are actually "INFJs" then they're the dumbest and most easily butthurt MBTI type out - jump on their Facebook groups (or just any MBTI related ones, they'll be in all of them) - and ask them a question. Be sure to record the response, because it'll be hilarious. I asked one guy to let me know what he thinks Si is (he was saying ISFJs are simpletons), and he responded with a total load of shit - I respond, and voila, onslaught of INFJs getting all butthurt that I questioned one, tore him a new ass, I had 'INFJs' PMing me telling me I'm a shit c*nt. Multiple INFJs. 
This to be fair, makes PERFECT SENSE for INFJs to do - Fe. They'll all bandy together and attack the outsider, I was disrupting harmony - the dickheads who sent me messages were probably the only actual INFJs in the group.


7 - one thing I can't understand, is why are they on a pedestal when they can't provide anything outside of copy-paste descriptions of their cognitive functions. They can't give you much information about Ni that you can't find anywhere else.
The reason for this is obvious, I suppose - you're not communicating with an Ni user. You're communicating with someone who has learnt about Ni. Massive difference.


There's more but I can't be bothered.

I would suggest the true INFJs, the ones who actually have dominant Ni and auxiliary *Fe *probably ARE misunderstood and won't relate much to the descriptors they read at all.

If the above seems slightly ragey, don't get all butthurt (like you do), it's mostly formed out of my own reasoning for why I'm _not _an INFJ and is intended to be comical (and true).


----------



## Gilead (Oct 5, 2017)

Then stop.


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

LOL, harsh!


But I actually DO think that the typical INFJ does have a strong interest in the MBTI and a penchant for blogs, because these things do reek of Inferior Se (expressing my thoughts at my own pace online rather than outside in this fast-moving world). 

Where I do take offense is people who think that because they are (subjectively) weird and struggle socially, to immediately assume they are Ni Doms which is really a quick fix answer to explain their sore spots in life. First of all, everyone is weird to some degree and unique. Even that basic ESFJ white girl who TOTES like to hang out with her friends at Starbs, has a whole world of inner secrets and potential, so get over yourself. 

Second, while I do agree that Ni can appear a bit alien at times and that it probably is rare as a dominant function, you still operate with 3 other functions, mainly (Te, Fe) so yes, there's a good chance a typical INxJ comes across much more like an ISxJ. So this _''Am I INFJ or INFP?''_ thing needs to stop because if you're really asking, chances are you're neither and you need to go back to square one in figuring out your type.


----------



## PiT (May 6, 2017)

I have to agree with @Turi that a lot of the INFJs you see online and the mystique associated with them are suspect. One of my coworkers is a confirmed INFJ, and she is very open and social. I mistook her for an ISFJ at first, and on the surface level the resemblance is quite strong. She's definitely more "mysterious" than the ISFJs I know, having that typically INFJ quality of just intuiting things, but the resemblance is strong.

The Pi functions are quite difficult to get a grasp on and are confusing in other people, primarily because they happen out of sight. I've had multiple people confuse me for ISTJ, and it's an easy mistake to make when they see the Te and not the force of Ni that the Te is supporting. If you can't see a person as an ISFJ, that person probably isn't an INFJ. 

Then you get some blog post that could be a stereotypical INTJ description, only swapping out "calculating" with "warm" and "logical" with "mysterious", but is marketed as an INFJ description. Now suddenly everyone wants to be an INFJ, most of these people understanding little to nothing about MBTI.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Stevester said:


> LOL, harsh!
> 
> 
> But I actually DO think that the typical INFJ does have a strong interest in the MBTI and a penchant for blogs, because these things do reek of Inferior Se (expressing my thoughts at my own pace online rather than outside in this fast-moving world).
> ...


Yeah, I can agree with the inferior Se thing. I mean I write myself. LOL. Could almost attribute any function to wanting to blog from home though, really.

Totally agree with the rest, and it works along with what @PiT says - if you can't picture someone as an ISxJ then they're probably not an INxJ.


----------



## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Turi said:


> I've got a couple of issues with "INFJ" in general.
> 
> 
> 1 - they're either one of the most common types in the world, or there's a billion mistypes, the amount of them on this forum, on Facebook groups etc is absolutely ludicrous, they're the ants of the MBTI world.
> ...



Agreed!

My sis is without a doubt Ni Fe Ti Se

She does not fit into any of that weird subculture identity.

1. She is HOT as FUCK, she KNOWS it but would never actually say it. But she certainly never walks around identifying as a misfit. She is almost the actual epitome in decorum, demeanor, sophistication of a poster wife males seek. And she KNOWS it (again would never say it). She wouldn't be caught dead identifying with a group of counter culture people in a self victimizing way. NO WAY!

2. While she does get social anxiety. It is stuff she creates in her head but also actually things she is not imagining. Why because she actually is the cream of the crop and with that comes a hell of a lot of haters. This can make her retreat and get major anxiety. But not in a 'nerd' way. It's because she knows (but doesn't say out loud, I just visibly know and see) she is being written off from envy and at heart really just wants to be everyone's friend. Really she does. She won't verbally say in these direct words but yeah she knows a bitch is trying to stab her in the back but that hurts her Fe. 

3. I have often argued on here even she is far more socially conscious than myself. She cares way more about social politics than myself. While she is not a lemming. Because she believes in catching flies with honey this means she does utilize social politics. Which dur the function Ni then Fe is VERY capable of doing with finesses. Not clumsy about. She was in the popular girl group in HS and while she can run any circle she still fits quite nicely in with top tier people.

4. Most of her deep pain comes from seeing through others and a complex on being apart of the engine she can see through. A battle with finding something authentic in a world of people she can see through. NOT because she is an out of touch pod person. (Far from)

5. She is anti social networking. Seriously as soon as it took off she got rid of her FB & My Space. She would never be on social network sites regularly ever identifying as a misfit. Gawd no. (The IxFPs I know would).

And YES she is socially active with said whatever is the things of her peer group. She would not only participate in the bake sale she would organize it :rollseyes: tehe I laugh at her for this shit

So actually this morning I made an entirely separate thread for people to post how they viewed sexy versions of each type. What made me think to even make the thread was because I was watching this video and it made me think of my INFJ sis' sexual essence. That's definitely an FJ woman on that video.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Sensational said:


> Agreed!
> 
> My sis is without a doubt Ni Fe Ti Se
> 
> ...


Yes, this fits in perfectly with how a 'real' INFJ would be, in my head.
Thanks.


----------



## Reila (Jan 17, 2017)

Stevester said:


> is a flat out contradiction.


INFJs in a nutshell.

The type is definitely overestimated. As with anything heavily romanticized, people ignore the bad sides of the INFJ type.


----------



## Reila (Jan 17, 2017)

Sensational said:


> 1. She is HOT as FUCK, she KNOWS it but would never actually say it. But she certainly never walks around identifying as a misfit. She is almost the actual epitome in decorum, demeanor, sophistication of a poster wife males seek. And she KNOWS it (again would never say it). She wouldn't be caught dead identifying with a group of counter culture people in a self victimizing way. NO WAY!


Anyone who is "hot as fuck" knows it. That has nothing to do with type.


----------



## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Reila said:


> Anyone who is "hot as fuck" knows it. That has nothing to do with type.


You still miss the point

She exudes this externally because she is internally. She is hotter external because it's in her entire essence. I am not simply talking about a pretty face. A lot of people have a pretty face. She is hot in her entire being.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Reila said:


> Anyone who is "hot as fuck" knows it. That has nothing to do with type.


----------



## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

INFJs are as varied in individual terms as any other type.

I wouldn't accept being an INFJ for a long time, so this trend--if it exists--for so many typing themselves as one? I don't get it. 

On the INTJf where I was an active member for eight years most people were mistyped as that, which makes more sense as it was started and peopled by INTJs, almost exclusively, for the longest time--still the majority are INTJs, but here on PerC, if there is any over-represented type it would be INFPs (maybe I hang out too much in the game threads in that sub-forum and don't see the INFJs all over the place).

I do know at least one INFP mistyped herself as INFJ after saying 'she cannot see her "Fi" as though having the equivalent of a Johari mirror blind spot naturally, or by default, "makes her an INFJ" whose aux is Fe. (Shakes head, internally.)

The one obvious reason for mistyping I haven't seen noted is an obvious one to my mind: Neurotic self-idealized type being mistaken--unconsciously--for the real deal as it got ingrained early, e.g. parents pushed tasks, lauded attributes, rewarded behaviors in align with a particular type (don't need to know anything about MBTI for this to happen) and voila, got a person who has come to prefer and believe he or she is some other type than what he or she is, 'and' to discover that person's real type would take recognizing the idealization going on; want to change; do the work; go through the vulnerability of coming down to earth and so on:

Most aren't going to do this regardless of type they put in front of their real--and possibly amorphous--self.

It's not just INFJs. 

I've seen so many assert being "risk-taking ISTPs" when they're INFPs, or some who come on strong and shooting off their mouths in a circle like guns blazing, have ESFJ as their type, totally obvious, wrong, and once the person comes clean: ISFJ there, calm sets in (not too neurotic person in that case--actual guy over on INTJf).

Factoring in medication changes comes to mind. 

I have an ISFP relative brought up in a chaotic, violent, drunken environment laid low, went to church, quietly compliant until she hit 30 and busted loose: Stopped attending church; had an affair, got tattoos, began hanging out with a narcissistic sister and doing all sorts of out-of-character shit, then got on Paxil and she's a real mess: Thought it would be a great idea to demonstrate how effective her taser would be on the boss's wife, no kidding--almost got her fired.

She's become a pathological liar and more.

Is she still an ISFP?

Yes, I believe she is, but the early childhood trauma--she couldn't repress it any longer, and when it surfaced, her real feelings about it--a lot of rage, bam! she came across loony tunes, MBTI aside.

I am grateful for the many who pointed out the volunteering and leadership and social aspect (though I do need a lot of alone time, it isn't--to my mind, because of being an INFJ; it was my huge, overbearing, take and not give family members and a whole lot worse, early).

I used the only blog space I had before the one I keep stuff in here for another purpose, connected to foster care fall-out: I never knew when I would be removed and my things left behind, or when an older sister or my mother would literally break open my childhood 'keyed' journal and read--then share--the juvenile entries, so I copy/paste posts into the blog spot here as I did on INTJf. Otherwise, I've never blogged; never felt the need as I published whatever I wanted to share, and "journal entries" generally made me feel worse, not better as they were reflections of the chaos, and did not bring order to it as my published writing did.

And I don't feel 'misunderstood.'

I don't think I ever thought, let alone said that.

Alien?

Sure, but in my family of mostly self-centered, anti-intellectual ESFPs, that's hardly surprising.

Glad I married an ESFP who likes my being smart and doesn't care much about MBTI beyond how my learning the nuts-n-bolts improved our marriage--topic for a thread I've already contributed to, and may go back for another pass if I got more to say.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> 2 - like @Stevester said - they use *Fe*. It's their *auxiliary *function. When you read about how misunderstood they are, how much they need time alone, how they can't do 'people' etc - you're reading the words of someone who is _not _an INFJ. INFJs are almost social butterflies. They are going to be almost the same as your stereotypical ISFJ soccer mum. They'll be the old lady volunteering at your schools canteen. They'll be the sole younger male carer at your grandmas retirement village.
> They will almost never be, the loner, emotional, 'misunderstood' blogger/writer stereotype - these people are mistypes.
> Fe is a doing function and it requires people. They are not the independent nerdy INTJs. They are not the logical, childlike INTPs.
> They'll appear closer to what you think is an ESFJ than an INFP.


I think you're a making a good point but over-stepped a little bit. Auxiliary Fe _can_ end up looking a lot like dominant Fe-- but it can also look a lot different. I think it depends on the person. It's possible for Auxiliary Fe to actually drive you away from social obligations/ involvements. You feel like Fe-ing, but shyness or introversion prevents you from Fe-ing as much as you think you should be, so the gap between what you feel like you should do and what you actually can do can make you horrifically self-conscious and shy. Some ISFJs have the same problem. 

Many INFJs are the complete opposite of stereotype, but many of them also fit it pretty well, it seems. 
Overall, I think I do agree that they're more like ESFJs than INFPs.... although of course it depends on the person and the context.


----------



## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> I think you're a making a good point but over-stepped a little bit. Auxiliary Fe _can_ end up looking a lot like dominant Fe-- but it can also look a lot different. I think it depends on the person. It's possible for Auxiliary Fe to actually drive you away from social obligations/ involvements. You feel like Fe-ing, but shyness or introversion prevents you from Fe-ing as much as you think you should be, so the gap between what you feel like you should do and what you actually can do can make you horrifically self-conscious and shy. Some ISFJs have the same problem.
> 
> Many INFJs are the complete opposite of stereotype, but many of them also fit it pretty well, it seems.
> Overall, I think I do agree that they're more like ESFJs than INFPs.... although of course it depends on the person and the context.


Good points in here.

I'd add that some (I was one) look more like stereotype ENFPs, i.e. I am or was 'good at a variety of gigs' but as Naomi L. Quenk, others point out, it isn't about what one is good at but one prefers, is naturally drawn to--for healthy types.

I was good, for instance, at being COO of a mental health agency--and some aspects I enjoyed like creating programs to benefit the mental health clients; stopping the bullying of one of the janitors who blossomed under my care, and getting the agency off the "contract at-risk status," but when it came to being 'among' the (low-functioning) mentally ill?

I hated that the most because, 1) I had tasks to complete to keep the agency up and running--and socializing with clients didn't do that, 2) They reminded me so much of relatives that had used me.

Oh, and 'meetings that took three friggin' hours while the facilitator went around the room addressing each "club-house" before getting to ours? I got my assistant to do that--I didn't have the patience for it. 

There's a joke in a book called, Limbo (Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams by Alfred Lubrano) about the difference between how middle-class vs. working-class persons run meetings: Three hours for the middle-class group--everyone sitting with their hands folded, waiting his/her turn while the working class meeting takes 20 minutes because someone takes charge, divvies up tasks, meeting over.


Back to the mental health "drop-in" agency and my being COO:

The books. I wore many hats for that job, so I dealt with the books--no funds for hiring anyone else to do it--by being frugal as I didn't have a background in finance at all, let alone strong enough to be an ongoing, adequate accountant.

So after getting the agency off the contract-at-risk status, firing staff that were getting paid for stuff like running Twelve-Step meetings ($16 an hour for a historical volunteer position), setting up a computer lab and much more, I hired my replacement.

When one looks at what I enjoy 'and' am good at doing, as well as what I was good at but abhorred, I don't look at all like an ENFP.

A lot that goes on in terms of "natural" vs. "forced" or "necessary" (gigs I did to support my son as a single parent) is internal, and takes someone paying close attention--with skill as an MBTI practitioner (amateur or professional) a while to sort through and nail down.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> I think you're a making a good point but over-stepped a little bit. Auxiliary Fe _can_ end up looking a lot like dominant Fe-- but it can also look a lot different. I think it depends on the person. It's possible for Auxiliary Fe to actually drive you away from social obligations/ involvements. You feel like Fe-ing, but shyness or introversion prevents you from Fe-ing as much as you think you should be, so the gap between what you feel like you should do and what you actually can do can make you horrifically self-conscious and shy. Some ISFJs have the same problem.
> 
> Many INFJs are the complete opposite of stereotype, but many of them also fit it pretty well, it seems.
> Overall, I think I do agree that they're more like ESFJs than INFPs.... although of course it depends on the person and the context.


Your theory would support basically any introvert being an INFJ.


----------



## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Oh ok so what the OP is saying is the idea of INFJ is put on a pedestal based on completely inaccurate data. Not to say I haven't been put on a pedestal here and there, but probably no more than any pretty girl who's also found to be really nice, by people, who, for some reason, find that surprising. But I don't put a lot of stock in my type in terms of how much it defines me. I try to be defined by my actions. I don't get the whole "I'm special cuz I'm an infj unicorn" or "you're special because...same". Type doesn't necessarily define who you are; some infjs are total buttholes.


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Well, at least the [strange] fixation and/or repetitive posting insanity (re: 'INTJ' mistyping / arrogance / 'uniquism') and/or other plethoras of high-functioning self-projecting has ceased and "shifted" to the other [unique] (Ni-dom) specimen(s).

I am afraid the INTJ "basking" spot for ostentatious _aroma _was beginning to _stink_, if you get the gist.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

Just wanted to point stuff out, but I agree.



Turi said:


> 1 - they're either one of the most common types in the world, or there's a billion mistypes, the amount of them on this forum, on Facebook groups etc is absolutely ludicrous, they're the ants of the MBTI world.


Technically, I could apply this entire argument to the various INTJ's on not only this site, but various Facebook pages and websites. Either there are some mistypes, or it's likely that a various amount of INTJ's reside in the world of the web. 




> 2 - like @Stevester said - they use *Fe*. It's their *auxiliary *function. When you read about how misunderstood they are, how much they need time alone, how they can't do 'people' etc - you're reading the words of someone who is _not _an INFJ. INFJs are almost social butterflies. They are going to be almost the same as your stereotypical ISFJ soccer mum. They'll be the old lady volunteering at your schools canteen. They'll be the sole younger male carer at your grandmas retirement village.
> 
> They will almost never be, the loner, emotional, 'misunderstood' blogger/writer stereotype - these people are mistypes.
> Fe is a doing function and it requires people.


I want to talk about this, because there are moments where I believe you are applying the logic of the use of Fe in a void and speaking about it on it's own. I am certain there ISFJ soccer moms exist, but I am even more certain that ESFJ soccer moms are more likely. I understand this is merely to help convey how Fe would look and is less about the resemblance to the type, but there are subtle differences to Fe-aux and Fe-dom. I would make the point here, but you give me a better opportunity later on. 






> 4 - *I have a theory that the longer someone is interested in typology, the higher their likelihood is of typing themselves as an INFJ.* I've seen it time and time again. People who are clearly not an INFJ, wind up basically tunneling themselves into being one.
> This is likely due to the fact Ni is so easy to relate to, everyone can make a claim for Ni dominant, and the whole 'misunderstood' vibe about INFJ in particular, it's like anyone who had a slightly iffy moment in their childhood thinks they're an INFJ.. which doesn't really fit.. also pay attention to people who want to be an INFJ when they're not - *they'll make type me threads (not exclusively here on PerC) and defend arguments that suggest alternate functions to Ni-Fe-Ti-Se.*


That first part being bolded is very true I think. Even I had a similar issue, for a bit, and I believe it occurs for the same reason I like the functions of ENFJ. Because the functions present are a good setup, the kind where people can rationalize easily. "I think deeply into things, I look towards the future, I get overfocused on particular subjects. I must use Ni." They look at Fe, and think "I care about people, not too much, but I'm emotionally sensitive. I use Fe too." Then they see Tert Ti and are like.. "I can be a critical analytical thinker in a detached manner, maybe I am an INFJ." I know I considered this for a moment, but I have a bad tendency to need to make absolutely sure. I believe INFJ is an easy trap to fall into until you do a lot of research on functions. By research, I mean you strive to find a good amount of consistency within the pattern of which how the functions are perceived. Ni has a bad habit of almost having no set discernible definition that clearly establishes any rules nor understanding, while Si actually has something that many people can at least grasp from eyesight and make a connection. I believe the best way to understand what Ni is, is to sort of reverse engineer what Si is. Look at this for an example as to trying to figure out if you're INFJ and comparing it to an ISFJ? By how this person describes them, I could easily look at this and say, "Yeah, this is me." 















> 5 - THEY USE FE. AGAIN. They're the ones volunteering for school captain or hall monitor. It's simply born into them, to be harmonious, probably conflict-averse - they'll be wanting to use Fe to make whatever Ni comes up with a reality.
> The loner up the back of the bus was not an INFJ. The one sitting somewhere in the middle chatting to their friends, probably WAS - maybe even the ones up the very front. The quiet ones up the back, no, stop, mistyped.
> The best friend of the guy who bullied you in school might have even been an INFJ, applying his Ni-Fe to his suggestions and ideas to please his dickhead mates. Notice he's still present, noticeable, Fe. Requires people.


This is a good point, but here is something else I wanted to point out, because I know ISFJ's in my life, and I want you to notice this other demonstration of how Fe can work due to you pointing out "It requires people." Because it is true. So the ISFJ I know, constantly clashes with people whom she shares different points of views with, and becomes stubborn about her own thoughts. She uses bits of Ne, but not nearly as much of it to be something she is aware of. Sometimes, she will dislike a movie depending on how much other people liked it, immediately declaring it overrated and if it's a remake, it isn't as good as the original. Her Fe exists, but it pushes her to decide against agreeing with people based on her specific nostalgic impression that she enjoys moreso and her own thought process. Si-Ti. So, maybe it's possibly she was an INTP? Not a chance. Despite making opinions, she would delete her entire post if it causes an argument and causes disharmony, her logic, while presence, makes sense to her. Always has, and so she's too stubborn to an outside point of view. Sure, Ti can be like this for an INTP, but INTPs I think are able to consider multiple perspectives more. You are aware of where I am going with this, as I'm pointing out that an INFJ can easily be similar to this depending on what circumstances they go through. We need to remember that the cognitive functions are decision making processes and nothing more, and that the manifestations have to match the circumstance, yet still fit the main idea. The more one particular function emerges in a pattern, the more likely it is to be someone's dominant function, according to the stacking. 




> 6 - if the bajillion of "INFJs" online are actually "INFJs" then they're the dumbest and most easily butthurt MBTI type out - jump on their Facebook groups (or just any MBTI related ones, they'll be in all of them) - and ask them a question. Be sure to record the response, because it'll be hilarious. I asked one guy to let me know what he thinks Si is (*he was saying ISFJs are simpletons)*, and he responded with a total load of shit - I respond, and voila, onslaught of INFJs getting all butthurt that I questioned one, tore him a new ass, I had 'INFJs' PMing me telling me I'm a shit c*nt. Multiple INFJs.
> This to be fair, makes PERFECT SENSE for INFJs to do - Fe. They'll all bandy together and attack the outsider, I was disrupting harmony - the dickheads who sent me messages were probably the only actual INFJs in the group.


Really, they just sound like a large amount of angry INFPs. I don't know what Fe appears like to others, but to me, Fe is a function that tries to reach compromise and forgives, or at least is a lot more forgiving than Fi is. I know plenty of Fe users that would put up with more than I would, despite my own initial politeness. I don't see an INFJ calling you a shit cunt, I see an INFJ sitting down patiently and trying to understand what you mean to discover what you are saying in order to understand you, instead of shrieking over the possibility of losing a rare title. 

I was just pointing out, that while there are cases where even I can agree that people stretch the INFJ functions to fit their need sometimes, the possibility isn't necessarily impossible.


----------



## typethisperson (Feb 4, 2017)

I wonder how long it will take for someone to say the bad INFJs are the mistyped INFPs... *rolls eyes*. The misunderstood INFJs are probably the 4w5 ones. The 6w5, 1w9 or 9w1 ones probably don't even care that much about MBTI to even have special snowflake syndrome about their type.


----------



## ANAXEL (Feb 16, 2017)

Turi said:


> I've got a couple of issues with "INFJ" in general.
> 
> 
> 4 - I have a theory that the longer someone is interested in typology, the higher their likelihood is of typing themselves as an INFJ. I've seen it time and time again. People who are clearly not an INFJ, wind up basically tunneling themselves into being one.
> ...


Cognitive bias if I've ever seen it.
It's as if the MBTI community has accidentally released a memo stating "If not confident on type SEE: INFJ"

You know what a REAL INFJ looks like?
Boogie2988 

An ISFJ who is more drawn towards complexity rather than detailed simplicity.
To me (according to what I've read) it seems like they're just as delicate but their minds quickly catch on to the fact that they have an unorthodox way to look at the world. This can get them in trouble which will make them develop some good camouflage at an early age. So they learn to stay in base and snipe from far away.
THEY ARE CAMPERS!

Hey, I HAVE put INFJ's on a pedestal of my own, and that's mainly because I have never met one but all I have read about them make them seem like they'd theoretically be perfect for me to interact with (still really looking forward to it someday).


----------



## calicobts (Sep 12, 2017)

From what I've seen INTJs are more sensationalized and put on pedestals in movies, books, and etc. NTs in general are usually put on pedestals. 

INFJs actually get a bad rap on forums like this because there's tons of mistypes coming from INFPs. If you want to spot the difference between a real INFJ and an INFP, look at how they talk about feeling "misunderstood." INFPs (mistyped as an INFJ) will typically romanticize and blog about how they feel so different from everyone else. Whereas, a real INFJ will express it through their actions or not say anything at all. Also, for the real INFJ being misunderstood/outcasted will feel like an actual burden. Whereas, an INFP will welcome it. 

Another misconception is that on Fe. There's to be a misunderstanding that an INFJ will use Fe like an ISFJ. This not the case. Since, Ni is the dominant function for INFJ and Si for the ISFJ.. Fe gets filtered differently. Because INFJs are intuitive unlike ISFJs, we can be prone to overthink, get self-conscious, and etc. So some of "us" might have social anxiety or something similar. This is especially true when you have unhealthy inferior Se. 

Hope this clears somethings up.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> Your theory would support basically any introvert being an INFJ.


Huh? I didn't say it's _only_ true of INFJs. Notice I said some ISFJs too. And it's not the _only_ factor being considered. INFJs and other introverts will differ in other ways. 

Also, this part:


> You feel like Fe-ing, but shyness or introversion prevents you from Fe-ing as much as you think you should be, so the gap between what you feel like you should do and what you actually can do can make you horrifically self-conscious and shy.


...I think is true of_ Fe-users who are also introverts_ specifically. Yes, other types can be both self-conscious and shy, but for different reasons, _not for that particular reason_. 
Turi, your logic sometimes...


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> Also, this part:
> 
> 
> ...I think is true of_ Fe-users who are also introverts_ specifically. Yes, other types can be both self-conscious and shy, but for different reasons, _not for that particular reason_.
> Turi, your logic sometimes...


My logic is bang on point. 

Every introvert, every shy person, everyone with any kind of social anxiety etc could use that to support Fe in any position that's not dominant.
Ergo, to support an INFJ conclusion, in people who are not extroverting via Fe.
Which INFJs do.
Because it's their first extraverted function.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> My logic is bang on point.
> 
> Your theory is applicable to every type that's not an Fe dominant. You feel like doing something but shyness or introversion prevents it.
> 
> ...


Yes but there are two particular things that are only true of INFJs and ISFJs _and no other type_--
-we are introverts
-we are Aux Fe-users

That means that we experience shyness, self-consciousness, and Fe in a way slightly different from how other introverts experience these things. Maybe other types experience this from time to time-- which you could also say about _any other trait_-- but for IxFJs, it's a particular problem. Notice I didn't just say "that's not true, because INFJs are shy." Obviously many people are shy. I did NOT just say "You feel like doing something but shyness or introversion prevents it." Instead, I gave what I felt to be _specific_ process in a detailed fashion, and stressed that it could also apply to ISFJs. Other types may relate to this, but they don't experience "the gap between how you think you should Fe" and "how you are actually Fe-ing" _in quite the same way_, _because they're not Fe-users_. If they experience it, they experience it dramatically_ less often_. Fe is not just "doing something" or "talking to somebody". It's a complex function-- and IxFJs experience it in ways that other types don't-- and this is how I think they experience it. We all experience our Dom/Aux to a degree other types don't.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> Yes but there are two particular things that are only true of INFJs and ISFJs _and no other type_--
> -we are introverts
> -we are Aux Fe-users
> 
> That means that we experience shyness, self-consciousness, and Fe in a way slightly different from how other introverts experience these things. Maybe other types experience this from time to time-- which you could also say about _any other trait_-- but for IxFJs, it's a particular problem. Notice I didn't just say "that's not true, because INFJs are shy." Obviously many people are shy. I did NOT just say "You feel like doing something but shyness or introversion prevents it." Instead, I gave what I felt to be _specific_ process in a detailed fashion, and stressed that it could also apply to ISFJs. Other types may relate to this, but they don't experience "the gap between how you think you should Fe" and "how you are actually Fe-ing" _in quite the same way_, _because they're not Fe-users_. If they experience it, they experience it dramatically_ less often_. Fe is not just "doing something" or "talking to somebody". It's a complex function-- and IxFJs experience it in ways that other types don't-- and this is how I think they experience it. We all experience our Dom/Aux to a degree other types don't.


Nah.
I'm sure some IxFJs are this way.. but this just feels like bullshit justification for not using Fe, when IxFJs extravert via Fe according to the theory.

It's a "no" from me.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> Nah.
> I'm sure some IxFJs are this way.. but this just feels like bullshit justification for not using Fe, when IxFJs extravert via Fe according to the theory.
> 
> It's a "no" from me.


Clearly 

Turi, INFJs and ENFJs are not exactly the same. ESFJs and ISFJs are not exactly the same. The degree to which you use your dominant function is not the same as how you use your auxiliary function. 

This is not that case now that I'm an adult, but as a kid, I found that I consistently oscillated back and forth between "Fe ON mode" and "Fe off mode/ Fe misfire mode." (of course I didn't know it was Fe at the time). In certain settings, I felt comfortable enough to express my Fe, I would be the life of the party, joking, talking constantly, coming up with games for everyone to play, etc. In other settings, I wouldn't feel comfortable-- I would try to activate Fe as usual, but someone wouldn't respond the way I was expecting. It was a dreadful feeling. That's why I call it a "misfire." I was trying to Fe, but the object of my attention wasn't letting me (from my perspective). The reason they "weren't letting me" is just because they had a very different personality than me, they didn't share my sense of humor, etc. So the horror of trying to use my extroverted function only to be shot down made me retreat deeply into my shell and become painfully, horrifically self-conscious. I would just sit there and not say a word, mortified. 
The degree to which I would be extroverted in the company where I felt comfortable-- and that doesn't just mean close friends or family, sometimes it would be people I just met or even an entire classroom-- and the degree to which I became absolutely silent with I didn't feel comfortable-- make me different from other introverts (except maybe ISFJ) and are caused by Aux-Fe. Also, sometimes the people I became absolutely silent around were people I had known all my life.
Many other introverts are consistently quiet-ish, or they range from somewhat-talkative to very-quiet-but-not-silent. Also, many introverts are consistently shy around people they don't know, and more talkative about people they know very well. If you read the above paragraph carefully, you'll see that's not the case for me.
That's why being an Aux-Fe-introvert makes you a certain, specific kind of introvert, not exactly the same as other introverts.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> Clearly
> 
> Turi, INFJs and ENFJs are not exactly the same. ESFJs and ISFJs are not exactly the same. The degree to which you use your dominant function is not the same as how you use your auxiliary function.
> 
> ...


Surely everyone can relate to this.
My ESFJ wife relates to this.
My INTP friend would relate to this.
I relate to this and apparently have Fe as a "blind spot" 7th function.

It's just being a human.

I sometimes feel comfortable extraverting and sometimes I don't, ergo, aux Fe, INFJ.
lol.


----------



## Sybow (Feb 1, 2016)

> They are often portrayed as the "perfect" or "ideal" type.


I don't any type can be perfect or ideal. Nobody of the same type is the same in person. So no type would ever be ideal in my opinion.
Also, I've met a few INFJs and they all seem to have quite some problems beneath the skin. Now I'm not going to say all INFJs do, ofcourse they don't all. But it seems like they are very prone to it in my point of view.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Sybow said:


> Also, I've met a few INFJs and they all seem to have quite some problems beneath the skin. Now I'm not going to say all INFJs do, ofcourse they don't all. But it seems like they are very prone to it in my point of view.


Who doesn't?


----------



## Sybow (Feb 1, 2016)

Turi said:


> Who doesn't?


Well I guess everybody does have its problems. But in my own experience, the problems I faced with INFJs were beyond my reach.
That might point to me aswell, but I don't know. I'm far from perfect myself.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Sybow said:


> Well I guess everybody does have its problems. But in my own experience, the problems I faced with INFJs were beyond my reach.
> That might point to me aswell, but I don't know. I'm far from perfect myself.


Don't feed them!

If I see an article about how INFJs problems are beyond an ISFPs reach sprout up in the next day or two, I know who to blame.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

I always thought the (actually) misunderstood types are usually INFP, INTP and INTJs, maybe ISTPs IRL too. These types seem to have the most problem dealing with socializing, typically. INFJs are social because having Fe as their aux function can cope better in social situations. I always thought INFJs are the least introverted of types because of the high Fe that needs to connect with other people more. Lots of villains are xNFJs too because of their ability to lead crowds. I dunno if the internet puts them on a pedestal but I can imagine it being so since they are considered "mystics". Maybe unhealthy INFJs have made communities and express their Fe through there, hence the internet memery over the type.


----------



## spaceynyc (Feb 18, 2017)

Lmao

It’s hilarious why people are still so mad about INFJs being seen as special or INFJs being mistyped. How do you let something so insignificant affect you lol.. I don’t even see people do that anymore, the only reason that notion is still alive to this day is because people STILL complain about it instead of letting it die out.
@Turi
Listen up, having auxillary Fe is not being a social butterfly. That’s dominant Fe. Yes some both IxFJs can be social subtypes and appear super extroverted but this is far from always the case. Auxiliary Fe can eeeeeasily come in the form of polite shyness. Or having the hardest time saying no to a favor request despite you dying to say no. I am a borderline hermit INFJ. Yet I am constantly doing things for others despite how I’m feeling. I am constantly modifying my tone and personality to fit best with what my intuition determined the vibe of other people in the room to be, but I am far from the life of the party. Inferior Se hates stimulation. Being a people person requires a lot of Fe but your also forgetting that it also requires a lot of Se as well. Inferior Se doesn’t want to be outside most of the time. Duh lol. Being a Dominant Ni user you should know this. Also you should know Ni loves to observe and not engage. In most group social situations I’m not doing much speaking. I am always observing social dynamics and picking up patterns to feed my intuition on what’s making people tick. I can’t feed my Ni so much if I’m going around laughing my heart out and talking my ass off lmao. Fe can easily be quiet and shy and prefer to be in the form of action instead. I much rather not go to your party or get together, but I will help you set it up. I’m not gonna open my eyes all the way and shout out a big HEY when you I see you. But I will at least say “hey how are you” in a laid back voice just because I want to make you feel comfortable. 

Functions are not your behavior, they are your motivations. I don’t get why people dont still get this.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> Surely everyone can relate to this.
> My ESFJ wife relates to this.
> My INTP friend would relate to this.
> I relate to this and apparently have Fe as a "blind spot" 7th function.
> ...


You're repeatedly simplifying what I said, ignoring all the details, and then saying everyone can relate to it (which you do _all the time_, whenever somebody describes a certain function). That's simply not true.


----------



## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

spaceynyc said:


> Lmao
> 
> It’s hilarious why people are still so mad about INFJs being seen as special or INFJs being mistyped. How do you let something so insignificant affect you lol.. I don’t even see people do that anymore, the only reason that notion is still alive to this day is because people STILL complain about it instead of letting it die out.
> @Turi
> Listen up, having auxillary Fe is not being a social butterfly. That’s dominant Fe. Yes some both IxFJs can be social subtypes and appear super extroverted but this is far from always the case. Auxiliary Fe can eeeeeasily come in the form of polite shyness. Or having the hardest time saying no to a favor request despite you dying to say no. I am a borderline hermit INFJ. Yet I am constantly doing things for others despite how I’m feeling. I am constantly modifying my tone and personality to fit best with what my intuition determined the vibe of other people in the room to be, but I am far from the life of the party.


I know that. The problem is that lots of supposed INFJ love to play the_ ''I'm misunderstood because I'm too mysterious''_ card, which is much more akin to Fi. But in all honesty, it's usually a socially awkward person using the MBTI to make themselves feel better regardless of what's their actual type. .


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

spaceynyc said:


> @Turi
> Listen up, having auxillary Fe is not being a social butterfly. That’s dominant Fe. Yes some both IxFJs can be social subtypes and appear super extroverted but this is far from always the case. Auxiliary Fe can eeeeeasily come in the form of polite shyness. Or having the hardest time saying no to a favor request despite you dying to say no. I am a borderline hermit INFJ. Yet I am constantly doing things for others despite how I’m feeling. I am constantly modifying my tone and personality to fit best with what my intuition determined the vibe of other people in the room to be, but I am far from the life of the party. Inferior Se hates stimulation. Being a people person requires a lot of Fe but your also forgetting that it also requires a lot of Se as well. Inferior Se doesn’t want to be outside most of the time. Duh lol. Being a Dominant Ni user you should know this. Also you should know Ni loves to observe and not engage. In most group social situations I’m not doing much speaking. I am always observing social dynamics and picking up patterns to feed my intuition on what’s making people tick. I can’t feed my Ni so much if I’m going around laughing my heart out and talking my ass off lmao. Fe can easily be quiet and shy and prefer to be in the form of action instead. I much rather not go to your party or get together, but I will help you set it up. I’m not gonna open my eyes all the way and shout out a big HEY when you I see you. But I will at least say “hey how are you” in a laid back voice just because I want to make you feel comfortable.
> 
> Functions are not your behavior, they are your motivations. I don’t get why people dont still get this.


Not having the balls to say "no" doesn't equal Fe in any position. It equals no balls.
I'm more than aware of how inferior Se works, as well as how dominant Ni works.
This doesn't change how Fe works. I don't care whether it is dominant, or auxiliary, it is an INFJs primary form of communicating with the outside world.




charlie.elliot said:


> You're repeatedly simplifying what I said, ignoring all the details, and then saying everyone can relate to it (which you do _all the time_, whenever somebody describes a certain function). That's simply not true.


No, I'm getting to the actual point of whatever you're spewing, and exposing it for the 'catch-all' that it is.


----------



## spaceynyc (Feb 18, 2017)

Turi said:


> Not having the balls to say "no" doesn't equal Fe in any position. It equals no balls.
> I'm more than aware of how inferior Se works, as well as how dominant Ni works.
> This doesn't change how Fe works. I don't care whether it is dominant, or auxiliary, it is an INFJs primary form of communicating with the outside world.
> 
> ...


Yeah but Fe is more likely to say avoid denying requests because their motivation is to keep harmony. 

Your perception of it as having “no balls” is that way due to your PoLR Fe. It’s foreign to you, just like Te is to me.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Turi said:


> No, I'm getting to the actual point of whatever you're spewing, and exposing it for the 'catch-all' that it is.


Turi why just why?????? Nothing you say makes any sensessseeeee everrrr sldajfadslkf:angry::angry:
I'm not talking to you anymore about cognitive functions. I try to explain because it seems interesting at first but you just refuse to listen to anything. And you wonder why INFJs are always pissed at you??? Here's another one you can add to your list....


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

spaceynyc said:


> Your perception of it as having “no balls” is that way due to your PoLR Fe. It’s foreign to you, just like Te is to me.


...I just read this, from here.


* *




PoLR/Trickster/Crap Function: INTJ, ISTJ
These types tend to take a highly critical stance towards Fe, thus feeling “tricked” by it. It is not only weak, but they undervalue it more than all other types. The lack of it sticks out like a sour thumb to others, and one of the earliest signs of me that someone is an IxTJ is the utter lack of Fe. For them, Fe is a totally waste of time, loony clownish insincere nonsense of the crowd, incredibly painful to endure and put up with in others, and its tendency is eliminated in themselves. The good thing is that for the most part many do not consciously have the negative drives of Fe, and can appear quite self-controlled and measured emotionally, not believing in using big dramas to get their way. However, when it does come out, it is totally out of proportion, resulting in surprising lash outs. Unhealthy individuals have this quite frequently, and it is quite embarrassingly apparent. If IxTJs understood the PoLR nature of this function, they would be aware that their exaggerated criticality is simply a type-bias and their wellbeing will greatly improve as a result when their suspicion of it lessens. Realizing Fe is just a valid a worldview would help a lot. Also, no one should expect these types to have state-of-the-art Fe anytime soon, so stop pushing them. However, it would be good for them to use a few minimal strategies to deal with Fe so others don’t think they are cold. Valuing Fi but lacking Fe, these types can be surprisingly warm, sensitive and vulnerable on the inside, but give off a really cold air. There are rare IxTJ individuals who are able to mimic Fe well through Te strategizing.




Hm.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

charlie.elliot said:


> Turi why just why?????? Nothing you say makes any sensessseeeee everrrr sldajfadslkf:angry::angry:
> I'm not talking to you anymore about cognitive functions. I try to explain because it seems interesting at first but you just refuse to listen to anything. And you wonder why INFJs are always pissed at you??? Here's another one you can add to your list....


Have you considered Fi as your dominant function?
loljk

What you're explaining just sounds like bullshit to me, that's all. Don't take that the wrong way.
It just sounds like some catch-all crap that anyone could use to affirm an INFJ conclusion with - I want to Fe but am a little shy/introverted/have social anxiety issues, INFJ.

That's just not how it works in my head.
If I'm glossing over some of the finer details in your.. theory.. well, this is just how it comes across, I don't care about the specifics, I've nailed the gist of what you're saying.

The general idea you're attempting to convey is that not every Fe user will utilise Fe in the manner an Fe dominant will - I understand this. I don't agree with your reasoning. It's just cover-all crap.
An ISTP could use what you're saying, to turn his inferior Fe into auxiliary Fe because he wants to help promote a harmonious environment but is restricted for whatever mental reason (inferior Fe).

An INTJ could use what you're saying, to turn their PoLR Fe into auxiliary Fe, if they notice something off with someone, but don't ask about it for whatever mental reason.. I mean you can see how this applies to every type, pretty much.

Any kind of mental hangup someone has that prevents them from acting in an Fe way, can be used to support an auxiliary Fe conclusion and therefore an INFJ conclusion.

I mean shit, an introverted ENTJ could think to themselves "I'd love to help that person out".. but then not act, just because they're introverted, and wind up thinking.. "hm.. must be an Fe user if I'm thinking that kind of thing.. but it's not dominant because I don't act on those thoughts.. must be auxiliary.. INFJ".


IOW I understand what you're saying but I think it's horseshit and too easily applied in support of an INFJ conclusion for anyone who isn't an Fe dominant.
I don't care that you specified ISFJ and INFJs in your initial post.


----------



## TalNFJ (May 5, 2017)

We're being put on a pedestal because initial type descriptions (that are the cancer of MBTI) are way more attractive when it comes to NFs, and inuitives in general, the "rarest type" is the cherry on the cake.

It's all a bunch of BS though and the INFJ general type description is probably one of the worst ones. When I'm being asked if I can predict the future or if I cry infront of conflict I just can't even react to that without laughing inside. 

If there's one thing I do agree with is that INFJs are misunderstood, even if Fe is a function that likes to put things out there, it's auxilery for the INFJ, Ni is dominant, and Ni is so misunderstood it doesn't even understand itself. 

Also I stumbled about some image here about INFJ/ISFJ and noticed something about Ni being an unconcious process and that's the dumbest thing I've heard since all the functions are unconcious LOL.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

calicobts said:


> From what I've seen INTJs are more sensationalized and put on pedestals in movies, books, and etc. NTs in general are usually put on pedestals.
> 
> INFJs actually get a bad rap on forums like this because there's tons of mistypes coming from INFPs. If you want to spot the difference between a real INFJ and an INFP, look at how they talk about feeling "misunderstood." INFPs (mistyped as an INFJ) will typically romanticize and blog about how they feel so different from everyone else. Whereas, a real INFJ will express it through their actions or not say anything at all. Also, for the real INFJ being misunderstood/outcasted will feel like an actual burden. Whereas, an INFP will welcome it.
> 
> ...


This is a true point you made, and I can agree, the introverted function before does have a necessary impact upon how said Fe, would be directed, however I only wanted to point out, that Fe being used in a manner of wanting to be different from other people and standing out from the collective group was a possible situation that could arise. I doubt Fi would really even consider other people often and if it did, would be repelled by the collective group. There's a big difference between saying "Who cares, I do what I want!" and "I don't care what they say, I'll do what I want." Only one of those phrases seems to express the awareness of other people's existence despite pursuing their individualism.


----------



## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

From the INFJs I've met in real life, I can't say why they ever should be put on a pedestal.
They can be a pain, but I'm probably just as much of a pain to them as they are to me.
I guess it is the elusive 1% coupled with the typology subculture memes.










Enough of that stuff and every special snowflake in a miles distance want to be INFJ.


----------



## Xcopy (Dec 10, 2016)

TalNFJ said:


> *We're being put on a pedestal because initial type descriptions (that are the cancer of MBTI) are way more attractive when it comes to NFs, and inuitives in general, the "rarest type" is the cherry on the cake.*


This. Just. This. 

This is, not even to just speak of only INFJ, but types in general: 


-Is why if someone called me an INTJ/INFJ I wouldn't agree with it. 

-Why people in general look at vague type descriptions and disagree with them despite being said type.

-One of the many reasons there are mistypes in general.


----------



## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

@Turi I know what you're saying, but personally I think what I've described is something (when I was an adolescent) bothered me to an extreme, almost every day of my life, affecting every interaction I had with other people. That's why I think it's my Aux function as opposed to something else. An ISTP or INTP might experience the same phenomenon but to a lesser extent, only at certain times-- just like I experience Ti and Se only at certain times, not day in and day out. Your Dom/Aux functions are the air you breathe. They don't just kick into gear at certain times-- they shape your entire lives. That's why you can tell them apart from 3rd/4th functions. 

It's true that the waters get murky because everyone experiences many CFs at many times. But what you have to consider is what CFs you experience, say 99% and 93% (just a guess..!) of the time for Dom/ Aux CFS respectively.

Also I think my rage is somehow Ti rage?! Is that even possible? lol. Maybe Ti that go so extreme it suddenly morphed into Fi?


----------



## Kaioken (Mar 4, 2017)

MBTI is here to make you feel good about your type. Infjs are supposed to be the rarest type but let's be real, 1%,2% or 3% it's the same thing. INFJs are not unicorns.
Honestly I can't make the difference between Fi and Fe, I'd rather be authentic about what I feel is right and wrong, doesn't make me a Fi user.
the same thing happens with INTJs somehow NJ types are put on a pedestal, it probably just because they are the rarest.
MBTI fanatics are mostly teens in need of identity. It kinda piss me off. Because it makes no sense and is rubbish.


----------



## anony321 (Oct 26, 2017)

Ugh, this is so confusing
as someone pointed out in the first page, i'm pretty much back in the square one again.
One theory i have is that i ""might"" be some sort of extrovert, and i'm currently in some sort of introverted shadow mode, because, high school..
I can't really figure out whether i'm currently stressed out to the point of being in my shadow or not, or just plain regular stress from normal high school pressure, can't judge probably due to lack of life experience; this is a bit of a stretched theory anyway..
Back in primary school, i can definitely control the crowd, and was at one point the"life of the party", but nowadays, some sort of boundary has (in)definitely been set between people i can get along with, and people that i'm definitely going to have difficulties getting along with.
Few years back, people's perception starts to change about me, i'm sort of like becoming this "outsider", "different". I'm uncomfortable at first, but then i read something along the line of, "The brilliant people of the past were the weird ones", i figured it'd help restore my self-esteem somehow, so i'm trying to embrace "that" side of me, but it has been a challenge.

(PS: My memory is pretty good, so my Si (there're more to Si other than memories, i know) is somewhat developed, i guess?)


----------



## Igor (May 26, 2010)

anony321 said:


> Ugh, this is so confusing
> as someone pointed out in the first page, i'm pretty much back in the square one again.
> One theory i have is that i ""might"" be some sort of extrovert, and i'm currently in some sort of introverted shadow mode, because, high school..
> I can't really figure out whether i'm currently stressed out to the point of being in my shadow or not, or just plain regular stress from normal high school pressure, can't judge probably due to lack of life experience; this is a bit of a stretched theory anyway..
> ...


Okay, a few thoughts for you. One, being in the grip of your lower functions is not a long term thing. It happens for a brief while, then your stress abates and you return to your equilibrium. If you're feeling stressed, it's because you're stressed, not because you're running off the lower half of your function stack. High school is a hellish, stressful time of life. You're not alone in feeling stretched too thin and worn through. Trust me, if the Igor from his high school years were to meet the Igor of now, I promise you one of us would probably punch the other one out of frustration and misplaced rage. Which is a whole other topic altogether.

Two, Si does not equal memory. Si and Ni are both introverted perceiving functions, so they spend a lot of time reflecting on the external world through the filter of the internal experience in their own unique ways. However, the idea that Si is your memory function is a bad stereotype based on a strained metaphor. Honestly, it's kind of one of my pet peeves, like how Ni is supposed to be prescient, Te is supposed to be commanding, Se is supposed to be daredevils, etc.

Three, everyone, literally everyone, has times where they feel like they stand on the outside of society looking in. That's a pretty universal thing. It doesn't marginalize what you're feeling, though. If personality type theory brings you solace, then I'd recommend looking up how Inferior functions present in people. We all use our Primary functions so automatically that, if you're introverted by nature, it can be hard to pick up on exactly which one you prefer. The Inferior is always the opposite focus of the Primary, that is Introverted <---> Extraverted, and vice versa. In my own case, I figured out easily enough that I use Fe, but it took me researching how Inferior Se presents itself before I could recognize that I preferred Ni over Si. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Fourth and finally, in the world of personality typing, there's a widespread and generally unconscious thread of thought that some types are "better" than others. This, in turn, can lead people to feelings of frustration and pain when they're unable to jive what they're experiencing inside their mind with what they think they should be experiencing. Keeping an open mind is not only healthy, but it can bring about some of the most cathartic self discovery a person will ever have.


----------



## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

Igor said:


> Okay, a few thoughts for you. One, being in the grip of your lower functions is not a long term thing. It happens for a brief while, then your stress abates and you return to your equilibrium. If you're feeling stressed, it's because you're stressed, not because you're running off the lower half of your function stack. High school is a hellish, stressful time of life. You're not alone in feeling stretched too thin and worn through. Trust me, if the Igor from his high school years were to meet the Igor of now, I promise you one of us would probably punch the other one out of frustration and misplaced rage. Which is a whole other topic altogether.
> 
> Two, Si does not equal memory. Si and Ni are both introverted perceiving functions, so they spend a lot of time reflecting on the external world through the filter of the internal experience in their own unique ways. However, the idea that Si is your memory function is a bad stereotype based on a strained metaphor. Honestly, it's kind of one of my pet peeves, like how Ni is supposed to be prescient, Te is supposed to be commanding, Se is supposed to be daredevils, etc.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you weighed in here, Igor. The stereotypes, so many focusing on and sharing only those tends to strengthen them in many people's minds, making the actual experiences some have seem less real or somehow suspect. How ironic and unfortunate. 

Supporting your suggestion that @anony321 take a look at how inferior function plays out with people in general, the book _Was That Really Me?_ by Naomi L. Quenk does just that as it is the focus of her book: 

How we look when we're in the grip of the Inferior function, and also how we can use the inferior function to alleviate stress.

So, for me, an INFJ, what I have been doing when I can, since I was 12--and knew nothing about inferior Se although I did experience what it meant in my life--was taking photos, especially using black and white film, which Naomi L.Quenk lists as ways for INFJs and INTJs to use Se for relaxation.

Of course all sorts of people may enjoy taking photos for pleasure, some going too far--trying to 'capture experiences' while missing the actual ones, e.g. people on vacation who come home with 500 photographs and say they had a vacation but don't feel very rested.

_Was That Really Me? _ is a great reference book for people to use in order to come to a better understanding, deepen one they already have, and combat the stereotypes regarding all the functions, not just the inferior function, and the author covers every MBTI type, not just popular, 'favorite' ones.


----------



## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Stevester said:


> INFJs have strong Fe, so technically that should mean they are emotionally expressive, concise in their communication and assertive about their needs. So this whole _''I'm misunderstood, weird and rejected for being different'' _thing that is constantly clamored and romanticized about them is a flat out contradiction.





Turi said:


> 2 - like @Stevester said - they use *Fe*. It's their *auxiliary *function. When you read about how misunderstood they are, how much they need time alone, how they can't do 'people' etc - you're reading the words of someone who is _not _an INFJ. INFJs are almost social butterflies. They are going to be almost the same as your stereotypical ISFJ soccer mum. They'll be the old lady volunteering at your schools canteen. They'll be the sole younger male carer at your grandmas retirement village.
> They will almost never be, the loner, emotional, 'misunderstood' blogger/writer stereotype - these people are mistypes.
> Fe is a doing function and it requires people. They are not the independent nerdy INTJs. They are not the logical, childlike INTPs.
> They'll appear closer to what you think is an ESFJ than an INFP.


1. Do you gentlemen think a typical INFJ is more _emotionally expressive_ than a typical ENFP, onnaccounta the INFJ "extraverts" their "feeling function" and an ENFP "introverts" their "feeling function"?

2. Do you think a typical ENFP is more likely to be a "misunderstood" loner writer than a typical INFJ, while the INFJ is more likely to be a "social butterfly"?

3. If so... do you get out much?

Anybody who's under the impression that the average INFJ (because "Fe type"!) is more _emotionally expressive_ than the average ENFP (because "Fi type"!) has let a silly "cognitive functions" model lead them seriously off the rails from a _reality-based_ perspective.

What's more, they've adopted a perspective that's inconsistent with Jung — not to mention Myers and, well, just about anybody who gets out much. Jung rightly understood that emotional expressiveness (and an inverse propensity to be _misunderstood_) was first and foremost an E/I thing. As he explained:

The extravert has no especial difficulty in expressing himself; he makes his presence felt almost involuntarily, because his whole nature goes outwards to the object. ... The introvert, on the other hand, who reacts almost entirely within, cannot as a rule discharge his reactions except in explosions of affect. He suppresses them, though they may be just as quick as those of the extravert. They do not appear on the surface, hence the introvert may easily give the impression of slowness. Since immediate reactions are always strongly personal, the extravert cannot help asserting his personality. But the introvert hides his personality by suppressing all his immediate reactions. Empathy is not his aim, nor the transference of contents to the object, but rather abstraction from the object. ... As a rule one is badly informed about the introvert because his real self is not visible. His incapacity for immediate outward reaction keeps his personality hidden. ...

Both [extraverts and introverts] are capable of _enthusiasm_. What fills the extravert's heart flows out of his mouth, but the enthusiasm of the introvert is the very thing that seals his lips.​
Jung also (rightly) thought that a propensity to be a social butterly was primarily an E/I thing. As he explained:



Jung said:


> [Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.


And in fact, whether somebody's emotionally expressive — like whether they're a "social butterfly" — is primarily influenced by _both_ their E/I and T/F preferences. The EFs are at one end of the spectrum (the most likely social butterflies), and the ITs are at the other. But in any case, it's decidedly _not_ a spectrum with the FJs on one side (the supposed "Fe types") and the FPs (the supposed "Fi types") on the other.

And probably needless to say, if somebody's MBTI perspective revolves around the goofy Harold Grant function stack (where INFJ = Ni-Fe-Ti-Se) — a model that's inconsistent with Jung and Myers, and has no respectable validity — they're likely to mostly or totally ignore combinations like EF and IT.

"EF? IT? WTF?! They don't correspond to any _functions_, man..."

_Protip_: Anytime there's an MBTI type where it seems to you like a very large percentage of the people who think they're that type are _imposters_, cuz hrmm hrmm, they don't live up to the expectation you've built up from your extensive reading of bad internet sources, you'd do well to consider the possibility that your poorly-informed, theory-based expectation is inconsistent with the characteristics typical of the people of that type who are actually walking around down here on Planet Reality.

As a final note, in case anyone's interested in a (long) discussion of why Jung didn't think _any_ IF type would be an "Fe type" (or any EF type would be an "Fi type"), see this post.


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

reckful said:


> 1. Do you gentlemen think a typical INFJ is more _emotionally expressive_ than a typical ENFP, onnaccounta the INFJ "extraverts" their "feeling function" and an ENFP "introverts" their "feeling function"?


If you would have taken the time to read what you've quoted, you will see that I specifically stated INFJs will not be the "loner, emotional, 'misunderstood' blogger/writer stereotype".

I see Fi, Fe and F in general, as decision making functions. Not much to do with being emotionally expressive.

I don't see a need to address the rest of your post as it pertains to something I didn't suggest nor imply.
You even brought ENFP into the discussion, for no reason other than to have more irrelevant crap to harp on about.


* *





I prefer dichotomy as well, it's just easier to use and IMO is way more flexible than the cognitive functions.
But I mean if I were to consider every variation of typology, I'd be here all day.

Harold Grant stack - Ni-Fe.
Jungs stack - Ni-Fi.
Dichotomy - INFJ. 

I mean for fucksakes, which one is it? I'd have to provide a different argument for each one.
By dichotomy, I'm an INFJ myself, and I'd agree with it that way, if you break it down to I, N, F, J, IN, IF, IJ, INF, NFJ, NJ, FJ - you can see there's so much more to dive into there, compared to the cognitive functions - perhaps shared traits of all IN types, all IF types, all IJ types etc - and I've noticed *this* to play out more often in the real world, than the cognitive functions.

Anyway this is a discussion for another thread.
I agree with you re: dichotomy.


----------



## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

These are the only kind of people I identify as INFJ:

INFJ Famous People


----------



## Mez (May 3, 2017)

I feel like @Turi is trying to be an asshole in his posts because he had read somewhere that INTJs are assholes, and has to play the role accordingly. Considering you're an adult and still behave this way even on forums, is more representative of your low level of maturity rather than of your MBTI stats.

My two cents here would be that having auxiliary Fe doesn't mean you're going to be entirely driven by it. The world doesn't consist of 16 people. And if it doesn't consist of 16 people, then there is a degree of variation in how each type utilizes his functions. Even INTJs are known to be guilty of bypassing their auxiliary Te in favor of tertiary Fi. So why wouldn't INFJs be guilty of the same crime? It doesn't make any logical sense.

Being Fe-oriented primarily suggests you are harmony-oriented. It's a vital inner dependency on social connection and social comfort. For example, a Fe user may feel as though he is on his deathbed as soon as he finds out he's not liked or not accepted by the group he's a part of. Whereas a non-Fe user wouldn't at all be concerned about it, as his sense of integrity and self-worth is not dependent on external acceptance. "Volunteering" is too much of a cliche/comedic requirement to even be taken seriously. Maybe an INFJ will passionately take up some volunterring gimmicks at the age of 22 as a naive college student, but eventually he/she will need to grow up.

From my observation the difference between all 4 introverted-intuitive types is extremely subtle. And all of the likely mistypes are to be completely expected. Feeling misunderstood will be a common trait for all introverted intuitives, because introversion impedes social connection, while intuition makes that connection ever so slightly obscure and confusing. Seeing a large number of INs on the internet is also understandable, since INs are the most likely people to waste their time discussing these problems on these kinds of forums, while all other types will be busy doing something far more productive and worthwhile. The internet does *not* represent the real population. Despite internet today being a wide-spread phenomenon, internet communities nevertheless excel at attracting a niche audience. And elections (for example Brexit results or USA presidential election results) portray this phenomenon extremely well. The internet is always convinced in one victory, but the majority of the population always votes for the exact opposite victory. And then we're all "suddenly" shocked by the results.

Lastly, whomever feels offended by, or is so concerned about the number of INFJs or by INFJ mistypes, or INFJ pedestals - that he is unable to live a happy fulfilled life - please go find a better hobby.


----------



## anony321 (Oct 26, 2017)

Igor said:


> Okay, a few thoughts for you. One, being in the grip of your lower functions is not a long term thing. It happens for a brief while, then your stress abates and you return to your equilibrium. If you're feeling stressed, it's because you're stressed, not because you're running off the lower half of your function stack.


Yes, i understand that. I was thinking that i might currently be in a long-term stress situation, so therefore i might have been in my shadow for quite some time, though, as you said, turns out this mainly applies in a short-term situation, which stretches this already far-fetched theory of mine even more.



> Two, Si does not equal memory. Si and Ni are both introverted perceiving functions, so they spend a lot of time reflecting on the external world through the filter of the internal experience in their own unique ways. However, the idea that Si is your memory function is a bad stereotype based on a strained metaphor. Honestly, it's kind of one of my pet peeves, like how Ni is supposed to be prescient, Te is supposed to be commanding, Se is supposed to be daredevils, etc.


Exactly, the more i learn about this, the more confusing it seems to become, and, in my case, especially between Ni and Si. Can you maybe, shed some light into this matter for me? Or maybe you can also point me out to one or several helpful resources.


> If personality type theory brings you solace


That's a pretty interesting way to put it 


> , then I'd recommend looking up how Inferior functions present in people. We all use our Primary functions so automatically that, if you're introverted by nature, it can be hard to pick up on exactly which one you prefer. The Inferior is always the opposite focus of the Primary, that is Introverted <---> Extraverted, and vice versa. In my own case, I figured out easily enough that I use Fe, but it took me researching how Inferior Se presents itself before I could recognize that I preferred Ni over Si. Your mileage may vary, of course.


Exactly, mileage may vary. It's especially hard to pin-point the intensity of something here, especially since self-assessment theories like this, relies alot on your own personal subjective experience and how well you know, and judge yourself.


> Fourth and finally, in the world of personality typing, there's a widespread and generally unconscious thread of thought that some types are "better" than others. This, in turn, can lead people to feelings of frustration and pain when they're unable to jive what they're experiencing inside their mind with what they think they should be experiencing. Keeping an open mind is not only healthy, but it can bring about some of the most cathartic self discovery a person will ever have.


Hmm, good point.



BranchMonkey said:


> I'm glad you weighed in here, Igor. The stereotypes, so many focusing on and sharing only those tends to strengthen them in many people's minds, making the actual experiences some have seem less real or somehow suspect. How ironic and unfortunate.
> 
> Supporting your suggestion that @anony321 take a look at how inferior function plays out with people in general, the book _Was That Really Me?_ by Naomi L. Quenk does just that as it is the focus of her book:
> 
> ...


Hmm, an interesting way on how inferior-Se manifests.
Well, i like to draw, though it can also be confusing since it might also suggest that Se is probably my aux or tert.

Speaking of books, i've been putting an effort in the search for "Gifts Differing"
I've read the preview a bit at google store and i'm interested in reading more. I'm currently in a queue to borrow the ebook version of it through Open Library ; 4th in line as of writing this


----------



## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Mez said:


> I feel like @Turi is trying to be an asshole in his posts because he had read somewhere that INTJs are assholes, and has to play the role accordingly. Considering you're an adult and still behave this way even on forums, is more representative of your low level of maturity rather than of your MBTI stats.


lol



> My two cents here would be that having auxiliary Fe doesn't mean you're going to be entirely driven by it. The world doesn't consist of 16 people. And if it doesn't consist of 16 people, then there is a degree of variation in how each type utilizes his functions. Even INTJs are known to be guilty of bypassing their auxiliary Te in favor of tertiary Fi. So why wouldn't INFJs be guilty of the same crime? It doesn't make any logical sense.


What credible source suggests the direction of the tertiary function is the same direction as the dominant function?

Allowing for the ridiculous amounts of variation suggested makes it too easy for even the most anti-social person to conclude they are an auxiliary Fe user, and therefore an INFJ (nobody uses it to support an ISFJ conclusion).

The line needs to be drawn somewhere - at some point, a person who doesn't want to be around people, isn't good at socialising, doesn't include other people in their decision making process and doesn't actively promote a harmonious atmosphere has to admit they are _not _using Fe as their primary form of extraversion.

Why is it only ever Fe (and always in people trying to convince others they're an INFJ) that is allowed to be bent to such degrees?

We don't see anyone trying to support an ISFP conclusion by saying, well I definitely am an Fi dom, and I think I'm Se auxiliary because as much as I want to enjoy life for what it is, I can't - I'm always in my head, too shy/nervous/anxious about what others might think if I acted on my impulses - but I do have those impulses often, and I believe if I applied myself and broke out of my shell, I could really get into that Se auxiliary and move forwards in life.

Never happens.


----------



## Igor (May 26, 2010)

anony321 said:


> Exactly, the more i learn about this, the more confusing it seems to become, and, in my case, especially between Ni and Si. Can you maybe, shed some light into this matter for me? Or maybe you can also point me out to one or several helpful resources.
> 
> 
> Exactly, mileage may vary. It's especially hard to pin-point the intensity of something here, especially since self-assessment theories like this, relies alot on your own personal subjective experience and how well you know, and judge yourself.


I spent half an hour typing out a reply in depth, but then my laptop battery died. So anyway, this is going to be a lot less detailed than it was, mostly because of me being cheesed off about it.

So to your first point, I'd second the recommendation for Was That Really Me? by Quenk. There's excerpts of it posted around on the forums here, but the whole book is worth it. You might also want to take a decent cognitive functions test like the one they have on CelebrityTypes. If you do, then I'd suggest taking the top two or three results and check them out, but then also look up the opposing functions to those. You might be able to pick up on patterns in yourself better that way.

Also, the strength of your different functions isn't that hard to pick up on if you know what you're looking at. The lead function is almost automatic, so it can be hard to pick up on for introverted leads. The auxiliary is a lot easier to figure out in introverts, but extraverts can have some issues with it if they aren't well developed because of it being turned inward, but that's not the norm. The tertiary is like that friend we all had who could have moments where they were awesome and supportive, but then could also be insensitive and goofy in the next breath. As for the inferior, it's easy to assume that it's just what you're horrid at, but it's more nuanced than that. It's been called the gateway to the unconscious, because it can be something that you want to develop but lack the inclination, time, or skill to do so. That's simplifying it a bit, but yeah.


----------



## Jeffrei (Aug 23, 2016)

OliveBranch said:


> Every type has equal capability, and I've found because INFJ's are considered the rarest type (we do not know how accurate that statistic is), they are viewed as mystical and deeper than anyone else could ever comprehend. At the end of the day, the cognitive functions can result in an endless number of possibilities. Yes, INFJ's tend to be deep thinkers, but many other types are as well. They are often portrayed as the "perfect" or "ideal" type. Again a person's value or capability is never based on their type. They are also seen as being highly misunderstood, more than any other type. Nothing against INFJ's, I simply think this is just a common trend. People will take a specific type and stereotype the hell out of them, until they are nothing more than an idea.


Hmm... Where is this coming from? Envy, misunderstanding, or hearing about them one too many times?

It is commonly accepted that individuals with an INFJ preference make up one (maybe two) percent of the population. When you are literally (if not almost literally) one in a hundred you are going to think differently, have different strengths/weaknesses, and of course be more misunderstood than most people.

Now I do agree that INFJs are over idealized, but that's just a byproduct of humans putting more value on that which is rare. For example, gold actually has no practical reason for costing so much money. In fact, there are a host of other metals that are more durable, readily available, and perhaps easier to work with. I'm not sure why people are this way (although I could think of a few possibilities) but they just idealize the rare. There's not much we can do about it (unless you know of a way to make INFJs super common for a few months). 

I'm not sure where this idea that INFJ is the best type is coming from though. There is no "best type." I'd trust an ESTJ to take charge and lead a group more than I'd trust an INFJ because I know that the ESTJ will have less trouble asserting themselves and keeping track of everything. However, I'd also trust an INFJ to handle relational issues more than I'd trust an ESTJ for (hopefully) obvious reasons. Each type has its own strengths and weaknesses. The "ideal type" is the type of person who can jump to any Myers Briggs type he/she wants at will.


----------



## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

anony321 said:


> Can't that (i'm assuming you're mostly talking about the Fe points) also apply to ISFJs? Both share the same Aux-function, and both "should" be able to overindulge or repress their respective Fe(s), hence, showing the signs of being a "neurotic".
> I'm talking about the "Healthy" and "Ni-Ti loop" ones.
> One could also argue that to "actualize one's talents for improving the world" as "the most interesting/important things in life".


I was, yes, referring to Fe, but it also applies to all MBTI types; Myers-Briggs borrowed a heck of a lot not just from Jung but psycho-analytic theory then insisted it was 'only for normals' leaving they said, 'the abnormals' to Jung.

But if you read Karen Horney and Erich Fromm, many others, it is clear that there is no definitive dividing line between normals and abnormals whatever Personality Theory one references, believes in, follows, et cetera.

Every stereotype or assertion (whether it contains much or little truth when applied in real-life situations) shares similarities with psychoanalytic theory and case studies--just a matter of 'quality' of neurosis more than quantity, so the Ni-Ti loop will show up under neurosis in psychoanalytic theory as opposed to some quirky idea that some do and some people (practitioners and non-practitioners alike) do not believe in as 'a basic part of MBTI theory.'

Extrapolate anything above in the Fe description to those using other functions for dom and aux, tert and inferior, "being in the grip," and the result is the same but runs deeper--the exploration, explanations, progress to be made toward improvement in psychoanalytic work.

And Horney, others (and I agree with them) assert that 'self-actualization' is the the most important thing in life, and that the human species--individuals within it have--a natural drive toward self-actualization.

But when early childhood environment is not enriching, is rather inhibiting, then 'self-idealizing' will take the place of the natural or real self, and what is called 'falsification of type' in MBTI will be called "Idealization of Self" in psychoanalysis resulting in the same situation:

People cannot be our best selves.

This includes caring for others, not just caring for ourselves. 

By 'caring' it doesn't mean undue or destructive or weak attention to oneself but necessary care that naturally leads to caring for others--including using our individual talents for improving not just ourselves but using our experience, skills, talents, all of our best in situations we are involved in toward problems we encounter:

Up to our personal limitations as well as limitations imposed by being human and living at a particular point in history and within a given culture.

I like Horney's work very much. 

I see how much neurotic expression shows up within MBTI self-typing, forming and sharing of stereotypes, holding and even clinging to opinions that one type is superior to another, and all the other competitive, destructive assertions made regarding MBTI in general and certain aspects specifically.


Thanks for the quote; I don't come back to threads at all sometimes; other times I forget to for quite a while.

Hope you're doing well, @anony321 which means evolving psychologically, mentally and in all other positive ways. I'm working on it myself, for myself and for others.


----------

