# Quick and General Observations



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

Observations are the Key to Truth

Knowledge-wise, this forum moves very slowly. Many threads take the form of long articles that make it difficult to gain knowledge quickly.

In an attempt to move away from that, I'd like to try this thread as an experiment. The rules of posting here: keep your posts three sentences or less, keep things simple and as anecdotal as possible, and try not to discuss other people's observations.

As a consequence of these rules, take extreme care to keep your own observations from being biased, and in many ways the simpler, the better. If you are so bothered by the observations that someone is posting here, please make a spin-off thread tagging the person instead of diluting the thread. I want this to stay very easily readable.



If done correctly, this thread could be an invaluable resource to the community.


----------



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

For instance: for ISFPs/ENTPs positivist and negativist dichotomy seems to be much about where you seek satisfaction, externally or internally. My dual loves to text and is very willing to stay sunbathing or talking with people for hours. Myself, on the other hand, needs to be satisfied by strenuous physical labor such as hiking or mountain biking.


----------



## Direct (May 12, 2014)

Many years ago, people were burning "witches." Most of these so-called witches were INFp expressing their wild imagination, and their confictors ESTj's were disturbed by this so they rationalized their fear by saying "they are evil witches and must be extinguished before they do something to us."

_True or False?_


----------



## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

ILIs tend to be fans of extremely deadpan humor.


----------



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

@Direct @ThatOneWeirdGuy

Despite the sarcasm in your posts, these are exactly the types of responses I was hoping for. Keep it up guys!


----------



## Direct (May 12, 2014)

I met two ISTj's. They both looked as if they were 20 year old, but they turned out to be over 40, wtf? They are also little bit weird.
I had an ISTj friend i used to play video games with, and he was normal. His actual age was the same as the way he looked like. But he was also little bit weird. His tastes were dark. He had a long hair. He liked black humor and so on. Now he is in a metal band. 

I think the famous magician David Blaine is ISTj. What do you guys think?


----------



## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

Based on my personal observation, SLE will do anything to win. If you apply pressure on them, they will always retaliate back in an effort to endure long enough to overload you with their pressure. Eye-for-an-eye complex is also rather strong.


----------



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

Vladmir Putin is very likely INTj (or at least a Ti-dom).



> Refer to last summarizing part of Wikipedia Page


If Barrack Obama is an ENFp, that could explain a good bit of the tension between our two nations.


----------



## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Direct said:


> Many years ago, people were burning "witches." Most of these so-called witches were INFp expressing their wild imagination, and their confictors ESTj's were disturbed by this so they rationalized their fear by saying "they are evil witches and must be extinguished before they do something to us."
> 
> _True or False?_


_False_. Many of the said witches were sp/sx and sx/sp who had a dark, secluded, socially disconnected attitude which made them priority targets for witch hunts. I often joke with an sp/sx friend that all she needs is a broom. She agrees.


----------



## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

\ o / omg all dem crazy generalizations! O_O I'M A WITCH A WITCH!


----------



## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Tainted Streetlight said:


> Vladmir Putin is very likely INTj (or at least a Ti-dom).
> 
> 
> 
> If Barrack Obama is an ENFp, that could explain a good bit of the tension between our two nations.


Obama = EIE and Putin could very well be LII but I've seen LSI thrown around as his type too.

So... not correct. Plus the hawks in Congress were the ones demanding action against Russia, not the President himself. The tension between the US and Russia is largely a result of hostility that the Prez was simply responding to as an act of bi-partisanship.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

SLEs can be either really friendly or really cold due to Fi-porl. The first kind usually bridges the emotional distance very quickly when meeting a new person (not to be confused with Fe-doms), the second one is more neurotic about their feeling weaknesses and is not eager to get close to people. Maybe it's the same way with ILEs, idk.

Types in the Si-valuing quadras can have a veeeery annoying and impractical attitude towards people where they believe it's best to let others become mobilized by their own will rather than put pressure on them which, from a Se-perspective, can make people stagnate in their development as a person, culture or in achieving their goals.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Types in the Si-valuing quadras can have a veeeery annoying and impractical attitude towards people where they believe it's best to let others become mobilized by their own will rather than put pressure on them which, from a Se-perspective, can make people stagnate in their development as a person, culture or in achieving their goals.


I've observed the opposite attitude in Si types as well. My SEI and LSE parents frequently pressure me to get things done right away.

As a judicious type, I *need *to relax before I can get work done. Pressure can have the opposite effect, stressing me out and making it harder to get mobilized. Taking into account that some people need relaxation rather than pressure to mobilize, the attitude you described is not so impractical in some cases.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> I've observed the opposite attitude in Si types as well. My SEI and LSE parents frequently pressure me to get things done right away.
> 
> As a judicious type, I *need *to relax before I can get work done. Pressure can have the opposite effect, stressing me out and making it harder to get mobilized. Taking into account that some people need relaxation rather than pressure to mobilize, the attitude you described is not so impractical in some cases.


Pressuring you to do things right away? Well, I'm bothered by your use of the word pressure because you've stated they are Si/judicious types as well. But if I'm interpreting it correctly then maybe it's a behaviour I've also noticed in a couple of LSEs, and which bothered me even more so, where they insisted on me adopting a ridiculous amount of study time or, in other cases, doing things that could be left for much later just because. Idk, I get the sense it's related to Ni-porl in my case but I'm not sure.
And, you see, I think stress mobilizes me so in my case it'd probably be different. It's certainly not healthy to be constantly bombarbed by stress though, obviously. I think it's important, whenever it's possible, to take into account individual needs.

But I was not thinking of work, not precisely. It's more of an attitude that's ocassionally bothered me in my delta parents and some other people. I started thinking about it while I got caught up reading the discussion in this article Final Fantasy XIV Will Allow Same-Sex Marriage After All that someone posted in another thread. Unless I'm completely off, the guy that starts the polemic debate is an xNTP. I noticed democracy, Fe values and the thinking I was talking about (not a pretty example).


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> Pressuring you to do things right away? Well, I'm bothered by your use of the word pressure because you've stated they are Si/judicious types as well. But if I'm interpreting it correctly then maybe it's a behaviour I've also noticed in a couple of LSEs, and which bothered me even more so, where they insisted on me adopting a ridiculous amount of study time or, in other cases, doing things that could be left for much later just because. Idk, I get the sense it's related to Ni-porl in my case but I'm not sure.
> And, you see, I think stress mobilizes me so in my case it'd probably be different. It's certainly not healthy to be constantly bombarbed by stress though, obviously. I think it's important, whenever it's possible, to take into account individual needs.
> 
> But I was not thinking of work, not precisely. It's more of an attitude that's ocassionally bothered me in my delta parents and some other people. I started thinking about it while I got caught up reading the discussion in this article Final Fantasy XIV Will Allow Same-Sex Marriage After All that someone posted in another thread. Unless I'm completely off, the guy that starts the polemic debate is an xNTP. I noticed democracy, Fe values and the thinking I was talking about (not a pretty example).


I think I know what guy you're talking about. The one who argues we have no right to impose our values (gay marriage) on other cultures that think it's wrong? 

For me I'd say it depends on the particular value and whether I think it's something that is universally good and important or just something I personally value. In this case, I strongly disagree with that guy.

Anyways, earlier today I read a thread where an ESFJ mentioned how she one time locked a friend in the car with a girl he liked and wouldn't let him out until he asked her to go to prom with him. I also recall a thread where someone mentioned an ESTJ roommate taking away his sodas because they were unhealthy. So I don't think Si types are necessarily averse to imposing their values on others, being pushy, or pressuring.


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> I think I know what guy you're talking about. The one who argues we have no right to impose our values (gay marriage) on other cultures that think it's wrong?


Yeah, if you keep reading the discussion entirely revoles around what he said (or, well, the "popular discussion"). At one point he explicitly states that he believes there is no objective right or wrong and that values are agreed upon by a community, so definitely Fe (and a moral relativist, I guess). But yeah, basically, what stood out to me was what you mentioned.



> For me I'd say it depends on the particular value and whether I think it's something that is universally good and important or just something I personally value. In this case, I strongly disagree with that guy.


Hmm well I haven't thought much about what I'd do but I definitely feel there's some things that are objectively wrong and I'm all for pushing those ones. I think the notion of pushing through Se goes hand in hand with Ni, in the sense that if you are going to put pressure to accomplish a social change you need to have a vision of wether that group, or even an individual I guess, is mentally ready to change or not. You need to know if it's too soon and the attempt to persuade other people might be futile or may in fact work but will be in conflict with people's actual desires and beliefs. Or if it's an appropiate time.

On the other hand, delta's NF idealism + not valuing Se seems to produce the thinking that people work better if they are moved by their own will. I'm pretty sure I've seen it happen but I can't think of any examples atm.



> Anyways, earlier today I read a thread where an ESFJ mentioned how she one time locked a friend in the car with a girl he liked and wouldn't let him out until he asked her to go to prom with him. I also recall a thread where someone mentioned an ESTJ roommate taking away his sodas because they were unhealthy. So I don't think Si types are necessarily averse to imposing their values on others, being pushy, or pressuring.


Lol that's kinda mean. I would totally see the ESTJ one happening though. Hmm maybe it's more complex than what I'm proposing? Actually, there's probably a Fi-inferior issue going on with the ESTJ.


----------



## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Pancreatic Pandora said:


> On the other hand, delta's NF idealism + not valuing Se seems to produce the thinking that people work better if they are moved by their own will. I'm pretty sure I've seen it happen but I can't think of any examples atm.


The greatest achievements are those born out of passion and self-motivation. You never see famous people on tv saying, "Well, it's not like I really want my job..."

It's important to be careful when making a statement like that because ultimately, in terms of happiness, feelings cannot be ignored for the sake of goals. Goals are set according to the satisfaction people think they will achieve at the end, and if they realize it's not going to work for them or if they need a timeout, they're free to take it. Forcing them to do otherwise would mean curbing their individuality and isn't going to be worth it. They're going to achieve the goal but so what? It's not going to make them happy. I'm in an environment that compels me to work first and take care of my other needs later, and let me tell you it's not pretty. 

I understand that what you said can apply to projects with deadlines that require commitment and dedication, and I am all for perseverance and achievement. But I advise caution when writing off this form of consideration as something Si-valuing types have. It's human to take into account that sometimes, people need their own time and space, and there's nothing wrong in that. If I have a goal to achieve and someone is willing to work towards it on their own terms, I can allow that rather than pushing them to work the way I want them to and failing to reach my objective with them at all.


----------



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

Guys... try to keep them short, discussion is ok, but multiple paragraphs totally defeats the point of the thread. (Tittle guys!)

Most of the other threads on this forum are for long-winded discussion, but try to keep your posts reasonable!
@_Pancreatic Pandora_ @_Silveresque_ @_Amaterasu_

Many thanks!
:ninja::kitteh:


----------



## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Amaterasu said:


> The greatest achievements are those born out of passion and self-motivation. You never see famous people on tv saying, "Well, it's not like I really want my job..."
> 
> It's important to be careful when making a statement like that because ultimately, in terms of happiness, feelings cannot be ignored for the sake of goals. Goals are set according to the satisfaction people think they will achieve at the end, and if they realize it's not going to work for them or if they need a timeout, they're free to take it. Forcing them to do otherwise would mean curbing their individuality and isn't going to be worth it. They're going to achieve the goal but so what? It's not going to make them happy. I'm in an environment that compels me to work first and take care of my other needs later, and let me tell you it's not pretty.
> 
> I understand that what you said can apply to projects with deadlines that require commitment and dedication, and I am all for perseverance and achievement. But I advise caution when writing off this form of consideration as something Si-valuing types have. It's human to take into account that sometimes, people need their own time and space, and there's nothing wrong in that. If I have a goal to achieve and someone is willing to work towards it on their own terms, I can allow that rather than pushing them to work the way I want them to and failing to reach my objective with them at all.


I agree and I think in most situations I consider if a person's going to get anything out of doing things due to pressure, in many cases they don't. If you force someone to do something you may not achieve anything because the person needs to go through their own learning process, or their own discovery, whatever you wanna call it, to really see things from your perspective or to find the value in the things that person does.

I'm not sure I explained my original point very well though :dry:. But I guess I'll leave at this given the thread's rules.


----------



## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

ILEs don't mind experimenting and failing (as long as no one else guilt trips/bullies them emotionally/psychologically for it). They have fun figuring out things on their own and don't mind the pitfalls along the way.
It doesn't matter if they wastes resources (within range) and becomes more time-consuming. That's not the point. ILE can be efficient when they want to be. 
It's just that if there's a chance for it, they would rather have fun and make it a brainteaser.


----------



## Tainted Streetlight (Jun 13, 2011)

I feel like Socionics is a brilliant way for brilliant people to forget their intelligence and enjoy the world for what it actually is.

I.e. Socionics is the gateway to becoming who we all really need to be.


----------



## Kintsugi (May 17, 2011)

Si-types worry about me. A lot.


----------



## Sabrah (Aug 6, 2013)

I really appreciate other STJs because their observations tend to be *realistic* and rational.
I need more ESTJs/ISTJs in my life.

Although STJ expectations can seem high to other people, I am very appreciative of their cold hard realistic connection to the real world.


----------



## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

*Si-Ne vs. Ne-Si*

ESE (or maybe SEI?): (Looking at a cliff) "I could just imagine some indians up there watching cowboys go by."

Me (IEE?): (At the zoo) "There should be roller coasters here. And other rides too. Someone should make a zoo that's also a botanical garden, amusement park, and water park all in one. That would be awesome."


----------



## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

EII like to ignore their FiNe functions and morph into magical INFJ in MBTI.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Miya said:


> EII like to ignore their FiNe functions and morph into magical INFJ in MBTI.


Huh, how do they do that


----------



## Kizuna (Jul 30, 2011)

Kink said:


> Huh, how do they do that


 I don't know. They define themselves as MBTI INFJ and socionics EII at the same time (just look how many "INFJs" cite EII as their sociotype if you click the smiley icon.


----------



## vosquoque (Jul 26, 2012)

Miya said:


> EII like to ignore their FiNe functions and morph into magical INFJ in MBTI.


Yeah, it's as if the actual definitions of the functions matter more than their names.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

vosquoque said:


> Yeah, it's as if the actual definitions of the functions matter more than their names.


This summarizes my primarily problem with most of the English socionics community online.


----------



## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

-Ephemeral- said:


> This summarizes my primarily problem with most of the English socionics community online.


The focus on the definitions or the names, you mean? Because on one hand, there's a lot of crappy descriptions out there, but on the other hand... _What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet._ And all that.

(But then on yet other hand, a name is in itself an attempt to define something.)


Edit: In hindsight, I might have misinterpreted vosquoque's comment in the first place... well damn.


----------



## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Miya said:


> EII like to ignore their FiNe functions and morph into magical INFJ in MBTI.


True, thought I was an INFJ (MBTI-style) once.


----------



## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Here are a few quick obso's:

1.) For some types, the Creative subtype look more like their Business partners; for others, they look more like their Mirror partners. Ex: SEE-Fi look more like IEE to me than ESI, but EIE-Ni look more like IEI-Fe than LIE-Ni. I'm not convinced this is related to rationality.

2.) Once you have ironed out boundaries and learn to keep a distance, Superego partners can be pleasant

3.) Irritation you feel with Mirage partners can be surprisingly immediate, but also disappear immediately

4.) People here seem to be more interested in the types themselves than the intertype relationships, which baffles me. Also, there is more emphasis on quadra and quadra value than I think that part of the theory has to offer.


----------

