# Have I Committed Parental Abuse?



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Swede said:


> Yeah, I'll be blunt here, but how do you know what abuse is? Do you honestly think that you have a normal baseline? I strongly suspect that you don't, which means that you might very likely not be in a position to define what is abusive nor what is normal, healthy and loving for that matter.
> 
> I was in my early 30s when pieces of my puzzle started to fall into place for me. I was in my early 40s (very recently) when I started to comprehend just how sick my mom, my family and my childhood was and how those rings spread over my entire life.
> Part of my recent development was a natural reaction to having children myself; it forced/motivated me to reflect, part of it because I finally had strength, time, maturity and distance enough to deal with my past.
> ...


Exactly. I have met many people who didn't know how they should be treated. That is how the cycle continues. 

I was thinking this is a type thing too. INTP are very untraditional, but can get trapped in tradition. Because of Si. Si is tradition. So they think independently, and have these expansive and original ideas through Ne, but then get pulled down by Si. It is a weight that ties one to tradition. It sucks them in. I said that Ni-Se is deep in the present moment. Ne-Si is spread out across the past. 

*Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that’s no matter—tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And then one fine morning—
So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.*


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## ayaphotic (Nov 2, 2014)

ScientiaOmnisEst said:


> I'm trying to balance it out, trying to avoid making her sound like a monster or a lunatic and myself like a total victim. I'm trying to be as objective as possible in describing what's going on, and our reactions to it.
> 
> I don't really think it's a personality disorder - more like a mean drunk with a diagnosed mood disorder (I have gradually discovered that the worst of the "abuse" will happen after my mom's been drinking). For one thing, my mother _isn't_ consistently nasty to me - though sometimes I wish she was, at least I would know what to expect. Some days it's wonderful, we get along, joke, laugh, speak civilly; this peaceful state state could last for weeks, then things will suddenly go downhill - it terrified me when I was younger since I could never predict it. Now I'm just kind of...numb to it. I know that if she's been raging and hurling verbal abuse and threats at me for a couple days it will blow over eventually. Neither of us fully trust each other when we get along - she assumes if I'm behaving it's because i want something or I did something bad and am compensating (more true in the past than now), and I know that her amiability could dissolve any day....
> 
> We're both sick in out own ways. I think it is partially hereditary, like rainrunner implied. To reiterate, my mother has major depression, I seem to be depression prone, though she insists it's usually either hormones/age, or situational (you're sad because X happened...). Maybe it is. I don't know.


Abuse isn't consistent. It very rarely is. There's always that happy period where there are no problems, and then it escalates to the painful part. You can have mood disorders, be a drunk, and also have personality disorders. Actually, depression and alcoholism are often caused by said personality disorder. You're able to laugh and get along with an abuser. Sometimes I can have awesome conversations with my father, but that doesn't change the fact that he's toxic and as soon as I'm able, I'm kicking him out of my life. Everyone's situation is different, of course. 

Also, What you're describing sounds an awful lot like BPD. The walking on eggshells part, not knowing what to expect, the mood swings, the impulsive drinking, the depression, etc.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

ayaphotic said:


> I really really don't think you're abusing her, sweetie. Abusers like her always want to be the victim, and they are very very good at making you think that you're the problem. You're not. You're her child and you're not doing well. You're depressed and isolated, and she's not doing anything to make you feel better. She responds to it with emotional abuse. That's not on you, that's not your fault, and you are not the problem.


Yeah but you could say the exact same things when it comes to the other side. Her mother is depressed and isolated, and the daughter isn't doing anything to make her feel better, and responds with emotional abuse or just not giving a fuck.

OP is not a child...judging by what generation is listed on her profile, she's most likely in her 20s. She is a dependent adult. Yet she seems to have a bit of a spoiled child dynamic when it comes to her mom. Honestly I can't blame her mom for being fed up with her.


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## Pinkachu (Feb 16, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> Yeah but you could say the exact same things when it comes to the other side. Her mother is depressed and isolated, and the daughter isn't doing anything to make her feel better, and responds with emotional abuse or just not giving a fuck.
> 
> OP is not a child...judging by what generation is listed on her profile, she's most likely in her 20s. She is a dependent adult. Yet she seems to have a bit of a spoiled child dynamic when it comes to her mom. Honestly I can't blame her mom for being fed up with her.


Being fed up with someone does not warrant years of ignoring a serious illness and/or alcoholism. No matter how angry one person becomes with another, the mother's level of behavior is inexcusable. Even if, by some twist of fate, there is a vicious cycle where the two hurt each other, I'd say the mother is far more to blame than the OP ever could be.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> Being fed up with someone does not warrant years of ignoring a serious illness and/or alcoholism. No matter how angry one person becomes with another, the mother's level of behavior is inexcusable. Even if, by some twist of fate, there is a vicious cycle where the two hurt each other, I'd say the mother is far more to blame than the OP ever could be.


So you're blaming the mother for not resolving her alcoholism issues, but you put NO responsibility on the OP for not getting help for her issues? Ummm that's kind of a double standard.

Of course you think the mother is more to blame. That's the way our society is, always looking for an excuse to blame the parents. I would love to hear the mom's side of the story.


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## ayaphotic (Nov 2, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> Yeah but you could say the exact same things when it comes to the other side. Her mother is depressed and isolated, and the daughter isn't doing anything to make her feel better, and responds with emotional abuse or just not giving a fuck.
> 
> OP is not a child...judging by what generation is listed on her profile, she's most likely in her 20s. She is a dependent adult. Yet she seems to have a bit of a spoiled child dynamic when it comes to her mom. Honestly I can't blame her mom for being fed up with her.


No. No. No. Believe it or not, being 20 doesn't mean you have your life stable. You're still trying to figure shit out. That can't be said for her mom. Her mom is middle aged. She has NO excuse for her behavior. She's abusing her daughter. Full stop. She raised her and she makes her feel inadequate in every way that she can. Very rarely do abusers ask "am I the abuser?". They don't. They pretend that nothing is wrong and even if they know they fucked up, they keep that to themselves and pretend it either a.) didn't happen or b.) mutter one "oh sorry" and think that will fix everything.

Nothing sets me off more than someone insinuating that the parent who calls their child worthless is being abused or is in the right. Maybe she's causing her mom stress, but that doesn't mean that her mom has any reason to be hurting her like this. Emotional abuse isn't the answer. 

It's not the daughter's job to make the mom feel better. It's not that kind of relationship. Parents are supposed to be the adults in this type of situation, and they are the support for their children. She's not a child, but she is still her kid. 20 is not that old. I've dated a 20 year old who had one of the most emotionally abusive moms I've seen. And you know how that turned out? The mom snapped and attacked my ex-girlfriend, threw glass at her, and called the police on her when she did absolutely nothing besides defend herself. Emotional abuse is extremely serious and it can get very ugly very quickly.

If OP hadn't admitted to her faults, I would be singing a different tune. But she did. And she's blaming herself. She's showing signs of an abuse victim. How dare you say that you can't find fault in her mother.


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## ayaphotic (Nov 2, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread because it would probably just anger me, but these are some bullshit responses I am reading.
> 
> Your mother has no obligation to take care of you at this point in your life. You are a fucking adult. She is feeding, clothing, and housing you out of the goodness of her heart. And yet it seems like you repay her by acting like a spoiled child. You have barely made any effort to improve your situation. Anytime your mother tries to interact with you your response is "oh my God, I don't care" or "oh my God, just leave me alone." You spend as much time as possible holed up in your room trying to avoid all human contact. Based on what you wrote here, you basically blame all of your lack of success in life on your mother's failure to give you sufficient encouragement.
> 
> ...


I don't even know where to start with this bullshit oh my god. The fact that there are people like you in the world make me sick. Not only do you invalidate the OP's experience (which is _obviously_ extreme emotional abuse), but you just invalidated all abuse victims as a whole. Congratulations.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

thismustbetheplace said:


> Yeah but you could say the exact same things when it comes to the other side. Her mother is depressed and isolated, and the daughter isn't doing anything to make her feel better, and responds with emotional abuse or just not giving a fuck.
> 
> OP is not a child...judging by what generation is listed on her profile, she's most likely in her 20s. She is a dependent adult. Yet she seems to have a bit of a spoiled child dynamic when it comes to her mom. Honestly I can't blame her mom for being fed up with her.


The problem is that children model their behavior after their parents. There is no need speculating about her age; she has already mentioned that she is an adult, but age doesn't matter when you have grown up in a dysfunctional family. Abusers strip their victims of power and you can clearly see that in her posts if you read them carefully. Victims learn that manipulation and abuse are the only ways to have control.

The way I see it, a parent is responsible for not abusing their child or they create a future abuser or victim or both.

Not sure how familiar you are with child abuse or abuse overall, but I'd be very careful introducing potential victim blaming in a thread like this. A lot of victims of child abuse never get help because people don't believe them, but think that they are being overly dramatic, imagining things or being unreasonable/spoiled/strange. Victim shaming is a very real issue.

Sadly, I am willing to bet that OP will believe just one single statement in this entire thread of supportive posts and that is your statement of "spoiled child dynamic", because she has very likely been conditioned to accept the blame for anything that her mother has issues with (including her father's death for crying out loud).

When it boils down to it, we are all saying the same as you are in your second post: get out and make sure that you become independent.

_Edited to add:_ Just for the record, I found your second post unnecessary, abrasive and seriously disrespectful, so much that I reported it to the mods.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

[No message]


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## Pinkachu (Feb 16, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> So you're blaming the mother for not resolving her alcoholism issues, but you put NO responsibility on the OP for not getting help for her issues? Ummm that's kind of a double standard.
> 
> Of course you think the mother is more to blame. That's the way our society is, always looking for an excuse to blame the parents. I would love to hear the mom's side of the story.


OP's trying to get into school. That at least an attempt at remedying the problem, you must acknowledge that. Depending on the location, she can get the hell and gone away from her mother and develop sufficient connections to leave the house. There is a separate account all her own for a college education.

Also, you are clearly very ignorant of what it means to live with an alcoholic parent. They are some of the most destructive people you will ever come across--literally. Don't believe me? Look at this: No safe place: parental alcoholism and adolescent suicide. - PubMed - NCBI

I think the NCBI speaks for itself. Or are they just an organization looking to blame parents too?


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## Pinkachu (Feb 16, 2014)

@Swede Thank goodness I brought you to this thread. You're just the breath of fresh air and kindness balanced with reason that the OP needs.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> OP's trying to get into school. That at least an attempt at remedying the problem, you must acknowledge that. Depending on the location, she can get the hell and gone away from her mother and develop sufficient connections to leave the house. There is a separate account all her own for a college education.
> 
> Also, you are clearly very ignorant of what it means to live with an alcoholic parent. They are some of the most destructive people you will ever come across--literally. Don't believe me? Look at this: No safe place: parental alcoholism and adolescent suicide. - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> I think the NCBI speaks for itself. Or are they just an organization looking to blame parents too?


Yeah, I have been meaning to create a new thread about verbal abuse and its impact on kids for the last couple of days. Recent studies show that the impact on the victims is much more severe than has been previously understood (not surprising to those of us who are victims). 

Looks like tomorrow will be a good day to do so - suddenly I got a whole lot more motivated....


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## ayaphotic (Nov 2, 2014)

Swede said:


> Yeah, I have been meaning to create a new thread about verbal abuse and its impact on kids for the last couple of days. Recent studies show that the impact on the victims is much more severe than has been previously understood (not surprising to those of us who are victims).
> 
> Looks like tomorrow will be a good day to do so - suddenly I got a whole lot more motivated....


I would be forever thankful if you did. Some people have an amazing way of invalidating a whole lot of victim's experiences because they can't see the scars for themselves. They can't see the result of the trauma that we've gone through. Ugh some people.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

ayaphotic said:


> No. No. No. Believe it or not, being 20 doesn't mean you have your life stable. You're still trying to figure shit out. That can't be said for her mom. Her mom is middle aged. She has NO excuse for her behavior. She's abusing her daughter. Full stop. She raised her and she makes her feel inadequate in every way that she can. Very rarely do abusers ask "am I the abuser?". They don't. They pretend that nothing is wrong and even if they know they fucked up, they keep that to themselves and pretend it either a.) didn't happen or b.) mutter one "oh sorry" and think that will fix everything.
> 
> Nothing sets me off more than someone insinuating that the parent who calls their child worthless is being abused or is in the right. Maybe she's causing her mom stress, but that doesn't mean that her mom has any reason to be hurting her like this. Emotional abuse isn't the answer.
> 
> ...


It's really irrelevant if you're still trying to figure your life out at age 20 or not. Even if OP doesn't have her shit together, the least she can do is be respectful to the person who is financially supporting her when she has no obligation to. Age is really completely irrelevant here. Someone can be an abuser at almost any age. The most abusive person I know personally is my brother and he started abusing my parents at the age of 13. People like you didn't believe them and therefore there weren't any resources for them to stop him or help him, and they went through many years of hell unnecessarily because the choice was either put up with the abuse or kick him out on the street.

Of course abusers ask "am I the abuser?" Not all of them do but some do. For example I know that I was abusive to my fiance in the past and I cut it out and openly discussed it with him. Many people don't talk about these things because they know they will be vilified.

I also don't think the OP actually believes she might be an abuser. The way she wrote her post, it seemed more like "oh well the doctor said I'm causing my mom stress BUT HERE'S ALL THESE REASONS WHY I'M ENTITLED TO CAUSE HER STRESS but she says I might be the abuser so I must be one but I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SHE IS SO UPSET BY MY PRESENCE I DON'T EVEN DO ANYTHING WHY DOES SHE HAVE TO BE SO DIFFICULT." It's almost like she's playing devil's advocate or something to try to prove that only her mom is the abuser.

Plus as I said, I think the phrase "abuser" is way overused and I don't think either of them counts as an abuser in this situation. They just don't get along and they have some valid reasons for fighting and some reasons that are stupid and irrational. I think they are both equally at fault and I think the OP is using all the bad things her mom supposedly does to her as a justification for why she hasn't made anything of her life. I don't think that's a helpful mindset for her to have. Trust me, I know this from experience.

It seems like you're just saying that the mother's feelings are completely invalid. Like the daughter has the right to feel stressed out by the mother's actions, but the mother has no right to feel stressed out by the daughter's actions (or inactions) just by virtue of the fact that she is a mother. To me that's a double standard.

You keep using the word "child." I don't think it means what you think it means. "Child" means someone under 18 (or 21 depending on where you live). OP is not an "abused child." She is an adult in a mutual toxic relationship. How long are you guys going to allow her to pull the "poor abused child" card, until she's 30? 40?

Of course it's the daughter's job to make the mom feel better, or at least try to not burden her even more. So what, you think a parent-child relationship is just one side taking everything and the other side giving everything, even into adulthood and old age? In that case I feel bad for your parents. While it's true that kids aren't responsible for their parents when they are young, an important part of maturity is to start being aware of the needs of others and attend to those needs, and to start taking care of the people who historically have taken care of you.

Ok whatever, "showing signs of an abuse victim." Remember you are only getting one side of the story. I didn't say I find no fault in the mother, I said they're equally at fault.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Btw, her mother fed and clothed her because she was legally obligated by the state to do so. She had no choice. It is hardly doing her a favor. It is the bare minimum. Technically she is entitled to her parents support till she is 21 in New York state. The OP obviously has some kind of mental health issues. She should see a counselor/doctor, and I am sure she qualifies for some kind of public assistance. It isn't a big deal. Everybody has problems. There needs to be a plan though.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> OP's trying to get into school. That at least an attempt at remedying the problem, you must acknowledge that. Depending on the location, she can get the hell and gone away from her mother and develop sufficient connections to leave the house. There is a separate account all her own for a college education.
> 
> Also, you are clearly very ignorant of what it means to live with an alcoholic parent. They are some of the most destructive people you will ever come across--literally. Don't believe me? Look at this: No safe place: parental alcoholism and adolescent suicide. - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> I think the NCBI speaks for itself. Or are they just an organization looking to blame parents too?


Well I'm glad she's at least trying, but from the sound of it this is a situation that went on for many years before she got to that point.

The daughter's behaviors sound pretty destructive too. My brother was a lot like her a few years ago (plus physical violence, as I said), and still kind of is, and let me tell you, it is very emotionally draining being around that type of person for an extended period of time.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

[No message]


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

thismustbetheplace said:


> It's really irrelevant if you're still trying to figure your life out at age 20 or not. Even if OP doesn't have her shit together, the least she can do is be respectful to the person who is financially supporting her when she has no obligation to. Age is really completely irrelevant here. Someone can be an abuser at almost any age. The most abusive person I know personally is my brother and he started abusing my parents at the age of 13. People like you didn't believe them and therefore there weren't any resources for them to stop him or help him, and they went through many years of hell unnecessarily because the choice was either put up with the abuse or kick him out on the street.


Yeah, I figured that something personal was behind what came across as a pretty hateful post. We all have different pasts and it's easy to project our own experiences onto others. OP is not your brother or you.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Btw, her mother fed and clothed her because she was legally obligated by the state to do so. She had no choice. It is hardly doing her a favor. It is the bare minimum. Technically she is entitled to her parents support till she is 21 in New York state. The OP obviously has some kind of mental health issues. She should see a counselor/doctor, and I am sure she qualifies for some kind of public assistance. It isn't a big deal. Everybody has problems. There needs to be a plan though.


How old is the OP?

Also do you really think her mom is going to kick her out when she turns 21?

Also even if her mom is legally obligated, as I said, that doesn't mean that the daughter should just lie around doing nothing and feeling entitled all day.

Oh I see, so when the daughter has mental health issues that affect others, it's "no big deal, everyone has problems," but when the mother has mental health issues that affect others, it's "OMG what an ABUSIVE MONSTER."


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> @_Swede_, let's leave this thread. @_thismustbetheplace_ seems to own this thread now, and I am not sure if it's a thread of which I want to be a part. @_Scientia_OmnisEs, may I suggest you leave with us? Better to cut your losses, and start over without being attacked.


And you can all have a glorious liberal circlejerk over a picture of Stefan Molyneux!

Anyway, bedtime for me, feel free to continue enabling each other!


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## Pinkachu (Feb 16, 2014)

thismustbetheplace said:


> And you can all have a glorious liberal circlejerk over a picture of Stefan Molyneux!
> 
> Anyway, bedtime for me, feel free to continue enabling each other!


Yes, it is time to go. The moment political titles are thrown about, any hope of conversation is cheapened.

Rest easy, and may your forever live in the denial of your warped perspectives.


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> @Swede, let's leave this thread. @thismustbetheplace seems to own this thread now, and I am not sure if it's a thread of which I want to be a part. @ScientiaOmnisEs, may I suggest you leave with us? Better to cut your losses, and start over without being attacked.


I think you'd have to leave the forums to actually get anywhere with that. Either way, shouldn't you guys quit worrying about who's responsible and come up with some productive advice on how to get out of the house? Because that seems like the clear path here.


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## sleepingnereid (Oct 31, 2014)

wow hmm,this sounds familiar except well my situation was a little worse but otherwise the same. Your mother isn't right. Shes using steriotypes of lazy people to justify herself. One thing you can do, as locks and doors can both be broken, is to push a dresser or your bed in front of the door whenever in your room, the only way in will give you lots of time to react, if they can get in. If you go the the guidance councelor and explain in detail that you your mother doesn't or won't support you at all and you need to be considered as independent on your financial aid application. Also you could move out temporarily during application or claim to anyway, at the local homeless shelter for independent status. If you get a full package it could include a dorm and meal plan-problem solved, permenantly! good luck


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

So I have read some of the posts here, I am not sure how most are intended to help. To understand, maybe but most are very biased the way I see it. I think before screaming that OP is emotionally abused and leaving it there you should care to listen to what she really is saying. I don't think she is being manipulated, she is merely discovering the emotional abuse that goes both ways. Yes, I do care deeply about children and I do think it should not be this easy to become parents but the truth is most parents have no clue what they are doing either. It is not like they are manipulative monsters acting on purpose. I see the hurt of the OP but I can indeed see her mother being hurt as well. I do think parents should reasonably help their children financially as well as long as they can but I also believe that noone really owes us anything, yes it should not be like the kids being thrown out the house when they are 18 but there are so many people that does not have privileges yet are trying so hard to stand on their own feet. The more we think someone owes us something the more we may go effortless, sometimes the situations push you to become the person you are. I can imagine though this emotional hazard environment in the household that effects both ways and it kinda makes it hard to take off and only makes things worse. 

Well to forgive is relieving as her mother seems to try to at least not fire these situations. So yes, parents are supposed to be the adults but they may not be, yes they are supposed to support their children but they may or may not. They should care, protect and nurture their children especially emotionally but they may be oblivious. Living stuck on the idea on what should be does not really work well with real life scenarios. It is liberating to accept the past and forgive, mind you I said past I know it is not acceptable to be abused- so I am not saying it in a passive manner but a liberating thought to start your future on. Expecting people to change for better rarely brings growth, I think you need to focus on how things could be improved. There are people that are stuck on their disadvantages, upbringing, yes I do get like that at times too and yes I was in a very supportive household. I was not understood but I was given opportunities and support, financial, tolerance. I do sometimes put the burden to my parents when things go wrong and I believe it is because the way I was raised, an only overprotected child with many rules that says she can't be like this, do that. Not reasonably explained ones but usually some bad label put if I were to. But I feel that it is not going to change anything and I do indeed see it makes them sad. It is what they believed in, it is how they were brought up, this and that. And parents do grow in time as well, it is wrong to expect them to be saints and role models. Yes I do wish people would stop breeding because so many children are ignored, abused, not cared for and it makes me sad, then there are ones in war zone, and they are pushed into growing up if they had any bit of childhood at all. But..we all know that parents are human as well, they can suffer as well. We just like to comfort ourselves thinking they don't or we are just programmed to think that way because we see them as our caretakers or role models, I really don't know about the psychology behind this but OP seems to have discovered it herself and she is able to see things from different perspectives, I think it is a greater step at this point.

And to be honest, I could be considered a bright child and all but I am probably the only reason to whatever stress my parents are feeling because I tend to put emotional burden on them at times or simply reflect. I don't do it to anyone else but my parents, probably because of the comfort. I wish I didn't because I do see that makes them sad. I try.. but sometimes I do want them to know and it doesn't get anywhere really.


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## Tezcatlipoca (Jun 6, 2014)

It just sounds like sj vs np stuff to me


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Pinkachu said:


> @_Swede_, let's leave this thread. @_thismustbetheplace_ seems to own this thread now, and I am not sure if it's a thread of which I want to be a part. @_Scientia_OmnisEs, may I suggest you leave with us? Better to cut your losses, and start over without being attacked.


I get where you are coming from, but I do it a bit differently:
- don't feed the trolls
- the blocking option is very much under-appreciated
;-)


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