# When NTs feel incompetent



## whytiger (Jul 17, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> Funny how this is coming just as I... received some kind of hate mail from some kid in my elementary school. I never understood why everyone hated me. It feels more intense for me than most ENTPs. I know 2 other female entps, and they can still speak...


It's always more intense with ADHD. An ENTP without ADHD isn't going to get where you're coming from like one who does have it. While an non-ADHD ENTP will take some action to solve their problems, an ADHD ENTP will tend to talk and not act. The fact that you're also a teenager and struggling with becoming an adult as well compounds the issue. You aren't screwed though as long as you have help from people who care about you.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Mojo Jojo said:


> Well there you go. No one here can help you, stuff like that requires a professional and/or rx.


Disagree. As I stated earlier, I really found the "NTs dilemma" (learn deeply while not spending any time on it) to be helpful. It's nice to know, even though it SOUNDS obvious. It kind of puts all together in a concrete way.


----------



## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> As an NT, I am usually at the top of my class; answering questions that classmate have, getting compliments from my teachers... all in a days work. However, I have ONE class this year where this is not the case. It often happens in classes which involve math (but not statistics, or science). I feel... incompetent. I don't know why I have a low grade. I can't figure it out. Just going to the class makes me feel inferior and pathetic. *I don't want to try.* I am not used to this position at all... the position of dependence on another person for the answer, the position of grade grubbing in order to get a B... it destroys me and I don't know what to do about it.


Stick with it. This class will probably do a lot of good for you. Judging from your description of your academic history, I'd say it's very likely that you have grown complacent in your estimation of your abilities. This is probably leading you to subconsciously avoid challenges to your self-image as an intellectual. If you don't do as well as you expected, that's ok, it will motivate you to do better in the future. There is always room for improvement.


----------



## Ngg (Jul 22, 2010)

Hm... I certainly don't think the 'NTP Dilemma' I suggested (copyrights on this one ) should be used as an excuse about how to go your studies. Yes, we are often torn between wanting to understand concepts inside out and doing minimal work, but there are times when you have to admit you're not good at something. As others pointed out earlier, if you're not good at the practical application of some academic field (Chemistry, Engineering), you can't just claim you understand the material but are not good at doing exercises. Most likely, this field is not for you. 
Once you get to College and have the chance to experiment with different courses - and at a much more challenging level - you will realize that even though you're an ENTP, some things *are *outside your skillset. I think ENTPs can have hard time admitting their limits - they just rather place the blame on "procrastination" and "lack of conscious effort".
I remember breezing through two semester of Organic Chemistry, and then losing my mind because I was failing at Engineering. Yes, I was trying to understand the concepts and proofs behind the equations, and had a better grasp on the material than the other students, but at the end of the day, if plugging in equations is what Engineering requires, then I do not have it. 
If something does not come at least somewhat naturally to you, then it's not for you. And most fields of study, even those that you are comfortable in, require time and effort (even for an NT).


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Okay. I think that the reason this whole thing is driving me mad is because:

1. I felt that I had a good grasp of and a natural ability for physics. I like concepts, ENJOY mental models, find counterintuitive things fascinating, etc.
2. I began to get poor grades on the tests, and I DIDN'T KNOW WHY. I had no idea. Because I didn't know the reason, it made me susceptible to what other people told me my problem was.
3. My teacher basically assumed that I was an ISTJ... going so far as to say that he was sure that I did well in other classes, but physics was not about memorizing or regurgitating material. I guess it was nice to get this, because it made it clear that he didn't really understand what my strengths/weaknesses were... because telling me that the concepts were hard and that I needed a tutor for the "mental wrestling" just drove me insane. WHAT MENTAL WRESTLING!??!! WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?!?!?!!


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes... I don't understand why I am doing poorly and what I need to do to do better, and the advice that other people offer me is just... infuriating. I don't know why it is. It's sort of like when people tell me what I'm feeling. It makes me really mad. It would be one thing if I thought to myself, "gee, these physics concepts sure are tough!" and then he said that I needed help... but I never really thought that. I wish I knew what was going wrong!


----------



## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

How much sleep do you get per night?


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I suppose you could say that I don't get enough, as I often miss part of the school day because I am too tired to get out of bed.


----------



## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

Take it from someone who loves to not sleep, you need to get more sleep. :tongue:


----------



## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> 1. I skipped the regular "first" course in physics and began with the second
> 2. I find physics interesting
> *3. I don't study for the test or do the homework*
> 
> I wouldn't conclude that I am inherently bad at the subject.


*Do your homework. Do your homework, and make yourself DO YOUR HOMEWORK!* If I could be so bold as to say this is entirely a motivational problem. You need to sit down (days in advance before it's due) and MAKE yourself do your homework. I doubt you'll need to study for the test if you can just decide to be a hardass on yourself and get the homework done.

I know you're not me, but statistics was very similar of an issue for me as this seems to be for you. Normally I never do math homework or have to study. I can just go to class and absorb the way the math ideas interact. For statistics I had a terrible instructor and I HAD to read the book and do homework. It was sooooo hard for me to get it through my head that I wasn't just going to magically understand the concepts with no effort, like I was used to. After I finished pissing and moaning about it, I sat down and put the extra time in. I hated it. Then I got my A. I hope the same success for you.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes... I am having a difficult time considering the idea that outside studying may be necessary to do well.

It's funny, but I had pretty much the opposite experience. I found stats to be fairly shallow and easy to pick up, while I saw calculus as being very dense. I had an INTJ friend... loved calc and hated stats, just like you.

Yes. I think that's where the "I think I did really well on the test, therefore I bombed it" rule comes from. When you aren't aware that you have weaknesses and gaps in your learning, that means that you didn't review. 

Gah... after doing some studying (yeah, I tried to STUDY. Not used to it, though, so I nearly fell asleep for the first hour before getting in the car, going somewhere else, walking around, and scouting out the perfect isolated spot in a dimly lit library corridor. From then on it took about 15 minutes to get into the zone, and from there I managed to study for 30 minutes before quitting) I figured out that the sort of mistakes I was making were, well, STUPID ones. I KNEW that you were supposed to break vectors down into components and that the two triangles were congruent, but what I didn't remember was which specific sides corresponded to one another. P ~ Q, or is P ~ Z? That's the sort of mistake that ruins a whole problem.

I suppose I hadn't done this sort of problem in over half a year, but I didn't really expect to be deficient or confused about it.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Psychosmurf said:


> Take it from someone who loves to not sleep, you need to get more sleep. :tongue:


I am hesitant to do so because that's what my parents tell me... but then again I am supposed to be up at 7 tomorrow, and I usually have trouble getting up by 7:45!


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I hate the idea of limitations... I have to get sleep... I have to study... I hate DOING things. This sucks.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Actually, this thread is making me wonder if I should take biology in college. Maybe I should avoid it. Maybe I will be bad at it. I think that genes are interesting...


----------



## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> Actually, this thread is making me wonder if I should take biology in college. Maybe I should avoid it. Maybe I will be bad at it. I think that genes are interesting...


Genetics and biology are very separate fields. Someone studying genetics would take one or two "biology" courses relating directly to the plants or animals they'd be studying/engineering and the rest is permutations/combinations of organic chemistry, microbiology and basic biophysics, which are all much easier for the XNTP mind (very systems based).


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

absentminded said:


> Genetics and biology are very separate fields. Someone studying genetics would take one or two "biology" courses relating directly to the plants or animals they'd be studying/engineering and the rest is permutations/combinations of organic chemistry, microbiology and basic biophysics, which are all much easier for the XNTP mind (very systems based).


Organic chemistry... I was always told that that was a tough pre med "weeder" class. I wonder if it's interesting...

Yes. I think that I may be learning some things here:

1. Some classes are not designed for the NTP mind. We can get through them, but rote memorization is not very fun for us.
2. Even when taking a class suitable for an NTP, studying is/ MAY still be required because nearly every class involves some degree of detail somewhere... and there is some memory in keeping concepts straight.

Go towards classes that are 80 NTP and 20 SJ vs. 80 SJ and 20 NTP.


----------



## LeafStew (Oct 17, 2009)

Oldlady said:


> I am an ENTP... with serious depression. Anxiety. The like.
> 
> I do have ADHD, I am fairly certain.


*This comment is from an NF be easy on me *>.<

I have anxiety too but only in certain situation. You should check this out if you haven't already (the little graphic), it's helpful to understand it: _clicky_

It basically means that you have anxiety when you perceive a situation that is too much to handle vs what you think you are able to do. The only way to change that is to better the image of yourself in certain situation. If your cognitive scheme of your skills in chemistry (or whichever was the topic) is inadequate, you need to improve it by winning small victories to improve the image you have of your skills in that subject. That way you will have less of a gap between what you perceive you have to do and what you perceive you can do. In this situation (or when you such at something in general) you need to compare yourself with your past performance and not other people. Try to improve vs yourself to better your esteem in that subject to lower your anxiety towards it.

I'm most likely and INFJ so we share the Ti part. I need to understand stuff before memorizing them too. I also wasn't too big on studying in High School barely ever did it (didn't had incredibly good grade either). When I got to college I failed like hell. I developed some studying methods in university/college for understanding but it involves some time. What you need to do is to try to do stuff spread throughout the semester. Try to do exercises a bit every week, write summaries you can reread before the exam, recopy information you need to learn by heart, reread notes you have taken in classes, be more cautious to what the teacher says especially when he says that particular thing is important (that's when you need to flash a light in your head, grab a pen and write it at a place where you know you will look back afterwards, sometimes just writing help even if you wont look at it after), try to figure which part of the subject you know most before exam and focus on what you studied less/no less/didn't got in class (this is particularly important if you want to use your time efficiently), etc. I know Ps aren't too big on routine stuff but try to plug a whole in your week where you spend some time on stuff like that even if it's not always at the same exact time every week. Also, it's always best to study before going to bed because your brain reorganize information when you sleep and if it's fresh it's like bonus information retention.

If you don't like my advices, just ask yourself the proper questions and follow your own intuition/answers:
-What have I done in the past that have worked super well in a similar situation (or a different situation but with a solution that would also be valid)?
-What kind of things can I do to improve my situation otherwise (read on time management, how we learn stuff we don't like, _Pareto principle_ maybe?)?
-Is there someone I know like me who could help me with his own experience about similar issues?
-What kind of thing can I do today, tomorrow, the day after? What's my plan/tactic about it?

Start with small easy stuff and move on. Sometimes stuff can look like a huge problem but if you separate it in many little parts and work on one at a time, it's easier to do (one chapter, one class, one group of problems/exercises, one period of time of study, etc.).


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I have social anxiety, mainly, but the anxiety I get in class is from my fear of the teacher judging me. I still don't understand the psychological funk I got into when he said that stuff... I was perfectly calm before. It might be nice to figure out, one day, why being told unflattering things about myself while I am entirely in the dark makes me go crazy. My best guess is the fact that I have no way to verify if it's true or not.

I am a P, but we are fine with scheduling. I just discovered Cal Newport. He is great. Look at this!

Study Hacks » Blog Archive » Monday Master Class: How to Reduce Stress and Get More Done By Building an Autopilot Schedule

I do have a problem with not knowing when I don't know, though. 

How did your grades improve once you started studying? I want to know if the effort is worth it.


----------



## kristle (Oct 21, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> How did your grades improve once you started studying? I want to know if the effort is worth it.


 I always decided what grade I wanted then put the amount of effort in required to achieve it. 

Doing it the other way around seems bizarre to me. Isn't that, in essence, what you're doing? You want to put a predetermined amount of effort in and somehow get an amazing grade regardless of the circumstances. It doesn't exactly work that way. You either sacrifice the grade and save your effort or you put in the required effort and achieve the grade you want. Seems to me you just need to decide which you want.


----------



## LeafStew (Oct 17, 2009)

Oldlady said:


> I have social anxiety, mainly, but the anxiety I get in class is from my fear of the teacher judging me. I still don't understand the psychological funk I got into when he said that stuff... I was perfectly calm before. It might be nice to figure out, one day, why being told unflattering things about myself while I am entirely in the dark makes me go crazy. My best guess is the fact that I have no way to verify if it's true or not.
> 
> I am a P, but we are fine with scheduling. I just discovered Cal Newport. He is great. Look at this!
> 
> ...


Well I went from failling (wasn't handing in papers nor studying :\) to having grades in the B+ A- range on average. Think it was worth it 

I dont study like mad, I like my level of performance though.


----------



## clawsthatcatch (Feb 1, 2011)

lol for some reason I think you would have gotten more sympathetic counseling over at the NF forum.


----------



## Paradox of Vigor (Jul 7, 2010)

A widespread NT rule: knowing how to solve a problem requires understanding the properties around it. So when teachers just show you the process to solve a math problem, it's only memorization, not understanding. With memorization does not come understanding, but with understanding comes memorization.

Concrete approaches to abstract subjects are educational blunders that will never be fixed unless the school board of the United States listens to what I have to say, and follows through with it. And what are the chances of that happening? After all, the entire reason they are incompetent is that they went through the same piece of trash school system as everybody else.

That's it. I'm starting a thread about my Operation ISS; the idea must spread in every direction possible. Damn I get worked up...

If only people would listen...


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Paradox of Vigor said:


> A widespread NT rule: knowing how to solve a problem requires understanding the properties around it. So when teachers just show you the process to solve a math problem, it's only memorization, not understanding. With memorization does not come understanding, but with understanding comes memorization.
> 
> Concrete approaches to abstract subjects are educational blunders that will never be fixed unless the school board of the United States listens to what I have to say, and follows through with it. And what are the chances of that happening? After all, the entire reason they are incompetent is that they went through the same piece of trash school system as everybody else.
> 
> ...


Yeah... wait, what?

When teachers show how to do the problem on the board, you can usually intuit the concepts. 

"Why is she multiplying x and y? Oh! That's the area of a square! A bunch of little square areas added together will give you the total area under the curve! Why is she setting the x to a limit of 0? Oh! The smaller the squares, the more precise the area calculation!"

Ah, but with understanding does NOT come memorization. For instance, one can grasp the above, and then get to the test and think,

"wait a minute... there is only one number on top of the integral sign. In all the other problems there were two numbers. It's probably set to a certain number on the bottom if there is no specification... but which number is it... what am I supposed to do? What is this problem asking?!"

You fail the problem. As was the point of the whole thread... it's not enough for an NT to sit in class and use their NT abilities to grasp 85% of the concepts on the spot. There is some level of studying necessary in order to work out the little kinks and the rough/ missed spots.

Actually, the concrete approach to abstract problems might be necessary for the Ss. I know an SJ boy... hate his guts, the little suck up. Anyways, he probably manages to get an A in an AP Calc course. He takes the AP test, and tells my INTJ friend that he bombed it. Couldn't do the free response. TOO FREE. She confided to me that she thought he would never understand calculus. I am so glad that he is getting what he and all SJs deserve! That said, he was accepted to a college exactly equal to mine. I bet it was because of his grades, and not due to an awesome essay or extracurricular.

I must say, I am getting a little sensitive to this "you can't do abstract" stuff. I mean... I guess it doesn't really matter what people think. What matters is if I CAN DO this abstract stuff. My teacher said something along these lines AGAIN today in class. I said that I wouldn't be able to get the concepts just reading out of the book, and he said, "so you think the concepts are just too abstract..." I think that I meant that they were not explained clearly, and that there was too much room for misunderstanding.

I don't know exactly what "abstract" means... really... I've never looked at something and went "whoa! Abstract!" I think that I'm just getting psyched out. Yeah... this thread was born out of psychosis.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

It might also have been necessary to convince me of the necessities of studying. 

It still feels a bit evil to me, but... I might have to.

Goddamnit!

Does this ever happen to you?

You get home at 3, get on the internet... and then it's 3.


----------



## Paradox of Vigor (Jul 7, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> I must say, I am getting a little sensitive to this "you can't do abstract" stuff. I mean... I guess it doesn't really matter what people think. What matters is if I CAN DO this abstract stuff. My teacher said something along these lines AGAIN today in class. I said that I wouldn't be able to get the concepts just reading out of the book, and he said, "so you think the concepts are just too abstract..." I think that I meant that they were not explained clearly, and that there was too much room for misunderstanding.
> 
> I don't know exactly what "abstract" means... really... I've never looked at something and went "whoa! Abstract!" I think that I'm just getting psyched out. Yeah... this thread was born out of psychosis.


I appreciate that you reinforced my last statement. It's not as though I gave the full explanation of what I thought, and because of this, you have no idea what I said. However, even that observation helps to prove my point. I'm thinking on a much larger scale: total system change modeled after the four temperaments. It would be easy, incredibly valuable, but direly costly.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Paradox of Vigor said:


> I'm thinking on a much larger scale: total system change modeled after the four temperaments. It would be easy, incredibly valuable, but direly costly.


I thought of something similar a while ago. I wasn't sure whether to split them up based on NT/NF/SJ/SP or P/J. Why P/J, you ask? Well, it's all about the Ti/Fi vs. the Te/Fe. The Te/Fe would learn biology, electrical engineering, and business management; while the Ti/Fi would learn philosophy, computer science, physics, and the arts.

Conversely, we could just offer two different "versions" of every course. I would LOVE a math course where you come in to find about 10 math problems completed step by step on the board. You spend 30 minutes BY YOURSELF (I HATE problem solving in groups. I get distracted by everyone else's theories, and feel anxious that I am not going fast enough when I compare myself to the people around me. We're supposed to do this in the class I am having trouble in... ha!) trying to figure out how the problems were done and why they were done that way. Then, 30 minutes in, the teacher write a NEW problem on the board and you have to solve it. After you solve it, the teacher goes over the solution and gets input from the class. You EARN POINTS for asking questions, so that people are encouraged to and don't have to worry about looking stupid. This also ensure that everyone is solving the problems in the most efficient way possible. People are called on to discuss the formulas they got, and then the class is over and you go home and do your homework.

Simple as that.

What do we do in math classes right now?

You go to class and watch a teacher write things on the board. Sure, you can pick up on the concepts, but honestly, it doesn't feel like I'm capturing things in depth. It's more of an overview, and if I want to do the fun exploratory work it's an option that I can CONSIDER at HOME.

Please note, if it's optional I will not do it. Even if I find it pleasant, and it benefits me. I still won't do it. 

So, that's one thing that might work for the NTP. I don't know how an STP, NFP, or SFP would feel about it.


----------



## Paradox of Vigor (Jul 7, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> I thought of something similar a while ago. I wasn't sure whether to split them up based on NT/NF/SJ/SP or P/J. Why P/J, you ask? Well, it's all about the Ti/Fi vs. the Te/Fe. The Te/Fe would learn biology, electrical engineering, and business management; while the Ti/Fi would learn philosophy, computer science, physics, and the arts.


No, the functions are irrelevant. Follow the intelligence styles and you cannot lose. Not only that, people would not be controlled and yet still end up where they want to be.

For NTs: The School of Strategy - sciences, math, etc..
For NFs: The School of Diplomacy - humanities, social sciences, etc..
For SPs: The School of Tactics - a lot of fu**ing stuff, etc..
For SJs: The School of Logistics - even more fu**ing stuff, etc..


----------



## RogueWave (Mar 16, 2011)

If you don't think studying is important now, I've got news for you, you're in for a rude awakening next year at college cowgirl. 

I'm an INTP biology major in his junior year. I hate studying. I hate homework. I do both of them because the nature of the coursework demands it. It's a necessity in college classes. You are going to have to do it. Not only that, but you are going to encounter more classes you aren't so enamored with, and consequently, won't do well at. So it goes. 

Now, back in high school it was a different story. The courses were easier, teachers expected me to know less, and studying was looking over my notes five minutes before the test. It worked back then. I received all A's and B's, made honor roll every quarter, was a member of National Honor's Society, took AP courses, all that shit. And it was all done with zero effort. 

I tried this my freshman year of college. I got my ass kicked. I found out the hard way, and so will you.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Hmm... yes... but I don't want to believe it. I wish there was some clear, logical explanation in addition to:

"Not studying in college lead to bad grades. Studying lead to good ones."

WHY? What does one gain by studying? It's such a generic term. I wish I knew EXACTLY what I was missing out on by not studying, and what I was gaining by doing it. That way I wouldn't be able to think to myself, "I don't feel like studying. Ah well, I'll pull it together on the test somehow." Because I would KNOW, "You can't just improvise skill x! You have to study for at least 4 hours in order to have it down!"

But alas, I don't know exactly why I have to study or what I gain from it. 

I suppose that I am afraid of investing a lot of time in something that might be ineffective. Finding counter intuitive studying techniques might be fun.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I don't understand WHAT studying is or HOW specifically it will help you on a test. I just don't see it! How can rereading material that you already learned in class lead to higher test scores? I figure that if you see it once you have it down.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

By the way, as an NT I enjoy the humanities. SJs like the sciences as well. Biology works well for them.


----------



## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> Hmm... yes... but I don't want to believe it. I wish there was some clear, logical explanation in addition to:
> 
> "Not studying in college lead to bad grades. Studying lead to good ones."


How about visualizing it as an equation: y = x/c + c where x is the amout of time you spend studying and y is your grades. (The INTP in me is begging for additional terms taking into account the probability of illness, car-accidents, bad teachers and other largely statistical factors, but for simplicity I won't...yet. :crazy

For some people, c is relatively large. They do very well with little or no studying and they have little to gain from extensive cram sessions. For other people, c is relatively small. Without some (or a whole lot) of work, success will prove elusive.



> WHY? What does one gain by studying? It's such a generic term. I wish I knew EXACTLY what I was missing out on by not studying, and what I was gaining by doing it. That way I wouldn't be able to think to myself, "I don't feel like studying. Ah well, I'll pull it together on the test somehow." Because I would KNOW, "You can't just improvise skill x! You have to study for at least 4 hours in order to have it down!"
> 
> But alas, I don't know exactly why I have to study or what I gain from it.


What you gain from studying depends on what you need. When I study math (to use a pertinent example), I only study concepts. I'll have plenty of actual practice using them in my homework so I'll figure out why x = yz^2. That way I can look at the problem and understand what type of problem it is and how to solve it.

I know exactly what you mean about improvising skill x. I did it on algebra and geometry tests obscenely well. When you get into college-level stuff, the derivations of a principle or solution are so complex that improvisation is no longer feasible. You can't rediscover the fundamental theorem of calculus in the amount of time you have to finish the test. Even Newton took months at it. (I hope there aren't any Leibniz fans in here. :tongue



> I suppose that I am afraid of investing a lot of time in something that might be ineffective. Finding counter intuitive studying techniques might be fun.


How effective it is is up to you. You'll have to experiment. Studying after dinner doesn't work? Okay, I'll figure out something else. Etc. Etc.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

absentminded... I am unclear on your equation. 
y = grade. Higher is better
x = time spent studying.
c = personal abilities/aptitudes. I am unclear whether higher is better or lower is better

The main thing I don't understand... why y = (x/c) + c ? Why did you add an extra plus c? 

Either it should be y = x/c ---- a lower c means higher aptitude
or it should be y = xc --------- a higher c means a higher aptitude

I will assume that we will use the latter, because that is how you described C in your explanation.


Alright... I think that I have to do math practice problems in order to get myself to REALIZE that I am fuzzy about certain things, or that there are certain parts of the problem set up that I am unsure about. I honestly can't tell without the dead reality of specific failure.

So each individual has a constant C. Y changes based on the class you take... oh fuck, I wanted Y to correspond to grade. Alright, we'll revise it:

YK = XC

So Y is your percentage score, and "K" is a variable for the difficulty of the class. K increases in college. So, let's look at an example:

A typical high school NT, compared to a typical high school SJ, with a high school "toughness" constant of K

C = 90.... 60
X = 1...... 1.5
K = 1

Both students wind up with a Y of 90. 90%!

Then let's go on to college.

C = 90..... 60
X = 1....... 3
K = 2

The NT who doesn't change their study schedule gets 45%, an F. The SJ, who does, gets a 90%. Realistically, the NT could have done 2/3 the work of the SJ and gotten the same grade... but they didn't.

Not studying is not improvising skill x. It's putting too much stock into C, which is a constant. God, I hate that! I hate the idea that C is a constant. I like to imagine that I can rise to meet any challenge. Okay, maybe there is a range of C that each individual is capable of operating under, depending on psychological conditions... anything not related to studying.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I can't believe that one hour of studying changes a grade from an F to an A-, though. There must be some way that studying increases grades... some sort of trend. I know that it's not a straight line.


----------



## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

When INTJ's feel incompetent its the saddest sight i've ever witnessed. They're much harder on themselves then with other people, whether you want to believe that or not. Its truth. So to see them act irrational due to their feeling of incompetence , is not a pretty thing to see. I've seen it, its ugly, in a pitiful kind of way. It doesn't happen often, although it happens.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh... this is something along those lines. I don't want to believe!

Study Hacks » Blog Archive » I Got a C on My Orgo Exam! What Should I Do?


----------



## RogueWave (Mar 16, 2011)

Oldlady said:


> I don't understand WHAT studying is or HOW specifically it will help you on a test. I just don't see it! How can rereading material that you already *learned* in class lead to higher test scores? I figure that if you see it once you have it down.


See, here's one of your problems. You're assuming you've already learned the material in class, but here's the thing, you haven't, at least not to the degree that the tests are requiring. 

If you learned the material in class, you would be doing well in the class. In reality you're not doing well in the class, therefore you haven't learned the material. This is were studying comes in. Think of it as teaching yourself or learning on your own. This may not be what you've done so far, but what you've been doing so far has not been working for this class. That link is 100% correct, it's time to change. 

Also, stop trying to rationalize laziness. I understand you hate doing things you don't want to do. Trust me, I couldn't be more sympathetic to that, but you have to step it up here.


----------



## luemb (Dec 21, 2010)

My INTJ-like advice:

If, instead of spending all this time writing posts, you had been googleing the physics you are learning, you would probably be getting better grades. 

My INTP-like advice: 
You can learn it, but physics is hard, and you will need to set aside time to either talk to people about what you are learning or read textbooks or search it out on the internet and think about it until it makes sense. Intuition is helpful, but, to restate, physics has a lot of complicated ideas that need to be analyzed and understood to get a good grade. Regular memorization will get you a little ways, but physics classes often ask hard thinking questions that require you to have understood the concepts completely and reapply them in different ways. So I would highly recommend sitting down with yourself, writing out everything you already know, and then try and fill in all the gaps by going out and learning that particular concept that you need to know.


----------



## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

@Oldlady

Alright, I'll explain the reasoning behind my equation in greater detail.

y = kx/c + c

The reasoning for adding a constant to the end is very simple. When x (the amount of time spent studying), the term kx/c is zero. Just because you didn't study doesn't mean you got a zero. Rather, you achieved some non-zero value, which is your constant c.

The reason why you have x/c is because when you have a higher starting value, c, or aptitude, you usually have much less to benefit from studying. Therefore the slope of the line is smaller. The equation y = cx means that as aptitude goes up, the reward for for studying goes up. As I said previously, greater aptitude means less benefit from studying so this equation would not represent reality.

I like your idea of a "difficulty coefficient" k. This would allow greater tune-ability from the formula as it could differ from class to class. A person with great aptitude for science might need a little more help with his more subjective English homework.

This formula is necessarily incomplete, though. A more accurate formula would be y = kx/c +c + d_1_ + d_2_ + ... + d_n_, where any d_i_ is a perturbation caused by some situational factor like illness or an abnormally talented/helpful teacher.

Studying is a fact of life. Even if you learned the material in class, that doesn't mean you remembered it all. Even if your study periods are only refreshers of previous material, they will still improve your grades.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I will explain my grievances with your equation y = (kx/c) + c

Let's get the variables clear again:

y = percent earned, which translates to a grade (i.e. "79%" "94%")
k = hardness constant. We have some discrepancies. My equation says higher is harder, yours says higher is easier.
x = hours studying
c = natural talent


1. "constant represents gains that don't come from studying (i.e. in class learning)"

You said "just because you didn't study doesn't mean you get a zero". Yes. But we can't just add a constant which = natural ability. Why? Hardness K needs to play a part. How far natural ability with "0" studying gets you depends heavily upon constant K. 

If we only used a constant, that would mean:

high school class with 0 studying ---- > y = (k(0)/65) + 65; y = 65
college class with 0 studying --------- > y = (.25k(0)/65) + 65; y = 65

They should not be the same. I am going to advocate for my preferred "higher k = tougher class" and say that it should be not:
y = (kx/c) + c
but 
y = (x/ck) + (c/k)
at least for this step, without more revisions which I will detail later.

(Side note: I am actually uncertain whether I should divide it by K or some other number. I just assumed that it would be linear, as well.)


2. "x/c because smart students with high C benefit less from studying than dumb students with low C"

So we assume that (c/k) gives the "base" grade without studying (based on natural ability and the course toughness). Then we move on to how their studying affects their grade from there. If we look at "grade improves with studying by (x/c)" (we ignore k because it is constant), then it looks like:

"A" gets a 75 with 0 studying. One hour earns her an 80, two an 85, three a 90.
"B" gets a 65 with 0 studying. One hour earns him a 75, two an 85, three a 95.

So, a dumb student who studies for the same length of time as a smart student gets better grades? It should not be this way.

It is not the case that a dumb student will pick up material faster when studying than a smart student. I think that what you were trying to represent in your model was the fact that an hour gets you from a 65 to a 70, but not necessarily from a 90 to a 95. That's why you gave the smart students a flatter learning curve. HOWEVER, the real determinant of how hours relates to grade outcome is starting point, or "base". (I guess? It's easier to make big leaps when you are doing poorly than when you are doing well?) The higher the base gets for both smart and dumb students, the lower the "grade points/ hour" slope should get. 

We need an accurate learning curve. I agree with the (C/K) for 0 hours studying. It sounds reasonable. But the way grades improve for hours studying? There is obviously a point where grade percentage gain for hours studying cuts off to 0 (at 100), but I do not know whether grade/hour starts to decrease up to that point, as it SEEMS you have assumed. Can 1 hour take you from a 75 to an 80, as well as from a 95 to a 100? 

So, what I propose is, INSTEAD of the "x/ck" model which basically states that a smart student gets a higher "base grade" but has a harder time improving upon their base (NO MATTER WHAT IT IS) we should devise a formula that:

1. takes base into account.
2. takes k into account. 
3. takes x into account.

I will work on this formula.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

My god. Who would have thunk it!

I think that this equation involves calculus. Calculus... the course I didn't study for and got a C in! Ha!

Well, well. It involves calculus because we are basically saying that slope "grade points/hour" changes.

Oh god... but I must find a way to work in the "base". 

Oh. Got it.

Y axis = over all grade
x axis = hours studying

Yet... some people get to start off at a certain point based on "their natural ability/ hardness". It's almost like they did hours of studying!

Of course... then I wonder if smart students and dumb students pick things up at the same speed. Maybe they both need different graphs. A million different graphs! Another thing is telling me that I ought to do something with the third dimension... that crazy z axis... but what?


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

There is one equation. You multiply it by the student's C. That's their graph. The starting point is always changing, because you divide it by K. Different K for each class.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

I feel as though I've taken a step to make this equation more elegant, but at the same time I feel a little disappointed that I have. When it was all jumbled it looked so complex! I imagined showing my calculus teacher... she never liked me... "look at me now!" I guess it just appears to be a simple equation whose slope is constantly changing.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Maybe it can get MORE elegant... I don't like how that "base" thing just hangs out there... a separate part of it...


----------



## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

Oldlady said:


> Maybe it can get MORE elegant... I don't like how that "base" thing just hangs out there... a separate part of it...


Elegance is secondary to function. In integral calculus every single solution will have an arbitrary constant C at the end of the equation.

I like one of the equations you came up with. y = (x/kc) + (c/k) I think this is a pretty accurate model of the phenomena now that I come back to it. I say we stick with this one. Oh and don't worry about trying to do something with the third dimension. If you change y to f(x, k, c), you have a four dimensional function already. Don't try and make it more complicated.

Now, how about you start studying? You know you want to.


----------



## whytiger (Jul 17, 2010)

The base is called a boundary condition. You set it by putting what you get without studying. In my precal class, I teach about variation, showing how things can vary directly or inversely with variables. Complexity can come out of simplicity. For example, your grade in any given class often depends on how well/hard the other students in the class work, since your grade is relative to theirs. Then there's input from the teacher. Is the teacher good? Hard grader? Soft on deadlines or a hardass? You could imagine all the students in the class as a sort of interacting system of particles with the teacher as an externally imposed temperature like an Ising model:

Try playing with the temperature on this one:
Ising Model Main Page

See how the areas of positive and negative magnetization are random at high temperatures, but at lower temperatures (below a critical temperature) they form into islands of north and south polarized magnetization. So if your teacher is very cold, the class will form into cliques of pro and anti teacher groups. If the teacher is very hot, then there will be a lot of random fluctuation.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

absentminded, I'm really going to have to disagree with you. y = (x/kc) + (c/k) is NOT right. It says that a student who is smart gains less than a student who is dumb, NO MATTER WHERE THEY START OUT. So a dumb student and a smart student can study for the same amount of time, and the dumb student can get a higher score (as was demonstrated in my first or second post).


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Whytiger, the toughness of the teacher/class overall was to be determined by the constant, "k", which changes for each class. Of course, there is going to be some work in determining what constant k IS and how it is built.

Our first question:

is the class graded on a curve? 

I prefer no, because I have never been in a curve graded class and it just makes things more complicated.


As for the Ising Model...
1. Is this... related to magnetism? I remember from physics class, that the reason that running an electric current in a wire around a piece of iron makes the iron magnetized is because the electrons in the iron start to spin in perfect synchronization. Does this tie into it?

2. As for relating the Ising model to the learning model...

a) Is a student a specific POINT in the Ising Model? As in, "Jimmy is 2 inches to the right and 5 inches up from the (imaginary) xy axis AT ALL TIMES. Sometimes he turns green and sometimes he turns red, but that point is always Jimmy."

b) Aren't the shapes that the Ising model makes totally irrelevant, then? 20 greens in the shape of a heart surrounded by a perfect sea of 40 reds is no different from 20 greens and 40 reds scattered together (so long as neither model has a different switch around speed)


----------



## whytiger (Jul 17, 2010)

Ok, yes, the k is good too. That's sort of an average measurement. I mentioned the Ising model because you said you wanted complexity.

Yes, exactly. Think of each dot as a tiny magnet. It can have its north pole pointing up or its south pole up. If you have two dots that are next to each other, but opposite, then they cancel each other out because the north of the one dot will attract souths to it but the south of the other dot will attract norths and repel souths. The effect is that they are neutral to objects that are far enough away. When the temperature is high, the dots are random so the material as a whole has no overall magnetism. This is what happens if you put a magnet in an oven. It loses its magnetism.

Now, when you get a whole bunch of dots pointing in the same direction you get a magnetized region. That large area is going to behave like one big magnet, so if you bring something close enough you will notice that it is magnetized. The larger the region, the more effect it has. The idea is that, when you cool the magnet enough, it can form these large regions and, if you want a good strong magnet, ideally you would have just two regions, a north region and a south region.

The Ising model is a simple model for magnetism that says that dots that are next to each other prefer to point in the same direction. The temperature adds an element of randomness though. As you lower the temperature past a critical point, the model goes through a phase transition, similar to freezing, and tends to form regions rather than being random.

I sort of imagined that the dots would be students and that the would tend to agree with their neighbors, just like the dots in the Ising model. If they are ENTP's though, we might need a new rule that they prefer to disagree with their neighbors!

It doesn't really matter who the specific students are if they all behave the same. That is a simplification. We're imagining an average student here.


----------



## RogueWave (Mar 16, 2011)

Sooooo, we've spent more time trying to understand a metaphorical, hypothetical equation, than actually studying? I think you and at least two other people in this thread have ADD. 

The Waffle, Sellihca, Kr3m1in, Emerson, Kristle, and myself all gave solid and REALISTIC advice, aaaannnnnd the situation has not progressed. At all. Trying to help you is like shoveling shit against the tide. Seriously, get an Rx for the ADD, no one here can help you.


----------



## whytiger (Jul 17, 2010)

RogueWave said:


> Sooooo, we've spent more time trying to understand a metaphorical, hypothetical equation, than actually studying? I think you and at least two other people in this thread have ADD.
> 
> The Waffle, Sellihca, Kr3m1in, Emerson, Kristle, and myself all gave solid and REALISTIC advice, aaaannnnnd the situation has not progressed. At all. Trying to help you is like shoveling shit against the tide. Seriously, get an Rx for the ADD, no one here can help you.


Well, the Ising model is physics, so maybe it will jog her into studying physics she's supposed to be learning.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

RogueWave said:


> Sooooo, we've spent more time trying to understand a metaphorical, hypothetical equation, than actually studying? I think you and at least two other people in this thread have ADD.
> 
> The Waffle, Sellihca, Kr3m1in, Emerson, Kristle, and myself all gave solid and REALISTIC advice, aaaannnnnd the situation has not progressed. At all. Trying to help you is like shoveling shit against the tide. Seriously, get an Rx for the ADD, no one here can help you.


Perhaps I never asked for advice and find the "metaphorical, hypothetical equation" quite interesting.

I do not need an Rx for ADHD. Yeah, there is an H in there. 

Fuck you. 

Besides, how would you even know if the situation has progressed? You never asked me how the studying was going. Anyways, it's not like -- wait, what was your advice, anyways? Study? Was that it? Just study? Gee thanks.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

RogueWave said:


> If you don't think studying is important now, I've got news for you, you're in for a rude awakening next year at college cowgirl.
> 
> I hate studying. It's a necessity in college classes. You are going to have to do it. Not only that, but you are going to encounter more classes you aren't so enamored with, and consequently, won't do well at. So it goes.
> 
> ...


Okay... you have to study in college. College is harder than high school.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

The whole point of this thread was to decide whether or not I should study. You seem to say yes, but ultimately, any action is driven by emotion. The more people describe the realities of college life contrasted with the easy ways of high school, the more I begin to EMOTIONALLY accept that studying may be a reality. This is a "tipping the scales" scenario. I would like to see some people in a college studying... people that I know, who are in the same classes with me. That might make it more real. I want to figure out if this is THE NORM. If it is, then I'll do it.


----------



## Catenaccio (May 2, 2011)

Incompetent is pretty much the worst feeling I can have. When I feel incompetent I get restless and pissed off. Then if it lasts too long without me having been able to fix it, depressed. Then after too long, I get pissed off and restless enough again to do whatever it takes to fix it.


----------



## Oldlady (Sep 18, 2009)

Ah. I tend to just avoid whatever makes me feel incompetent.


----------



## EmpireConquered (Feb 14, 2012)

Play while studying. Stress is the worst motivator for good marks.


----------



## Ce Jeu (Dec 26, 2011)

When I have to deal with something with a lot of detail required. My previous job was very detail oriented, and it made me feel like the most incompetent person on the planet.


----------



## TheBoss (Oct 27, 2011)

Oldlady said:


> I'm a woman... by the way... so my post about gender having something to do with it... not sexist.


Well, I am female, never struggled with physics. Gender is not an issue. How one was brought up (in matters of aspirations and learning) has to; along with one's way & ability of learning, has to do much though.



Oldlady said:


> Oh, you dirty NTJs!
> Is THIS how all the other people in my class seem so competent?


No. Iam xNTJ. And since I am a J, a subject HAS TO have a meaning and to make sense. Random unrelated, unprocessed info doesn't stick much to my mind either. Though I possess a strange memory, everything is always meaningful/related in some way, even if I have to create that myself. Rote alone, nothing sticks to my mind.
Quoting from wiki:


> Rote learning *vs*. critical thinking


"Critical Thinking" ^ Iirc all NTs (including you) are supposed to do that. Right? If yes, I don't see why we should go ROTE instead of BRAIN ^^



> Rote learning is sometimes disparaged with the derogative terms *parrot* fashion


Is exactly how we refer to it in my country (that happens to be one of the countries using it extensively). We frown down to it (but sure helps grades...).

So, it would be real helpful if you were more specific about what exactly is this physics class. Mechanics? Relativity? Electromagnetism? Nuclear physics? Solid states? Astro? Optical? Thermodynamics? I think you said you are still in high school so you should be doing all that already. If you mentioned it already, I must have missed it.
Tell us the exact branch of physics that gives you the hard time so we can help. Add the level of maths you are using in it. Merely algebra? Calculus? Derivatives & integrals for sure; right? 

You were already been given good advice, let's see if we can find a seemingly new one that will float your boat and switch your view on the subject of that class.


----------



## Peripheral (Jan 8, 2011)

Question is; when don't I fell incompetent?


----------

