# He cheated on me with prostitutes for the entirety of our relationship.



## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

@Fern I am so sorry to hear that! 
I cannot imagine how hard that must be, I am not even going to attempt to.
Gargh the guy was a fucking asshole! Nobody deserves to be treated like that! 
I for one will be more than honoured to be able to listen and help you adjust to this news in this thread. 
I wish you all the best and you come out of this a stronger person 

also I agree with @BenevolentBitterBleeding get tested very soon!


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## MisterD (Feb 24, 2010)

Did you 2 not have sex often?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Whatever you do, don't let this scumbag win and by win; I mean don't let him poison your attitude towards other guys. I was emotional abused and has left me with deep emotional scars and trouble trusting. While you need to do whatever is necessary to heal from this horrible ordeal; don't ever let this POS affect your ability to trust good people. I'm learning that the hard way.


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

MisterD said:


> Did you 2 not have sex often?


What kind of retarded question is that? 

The answer makes no excuse for the idiot.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Nice you know and nice you are out, and triple nice you are getting help, it's a difficult one for anybody.



Fern said:


> I just need to focus on becoming the person I was before the crazy-making, before the gaslighting started, before I was second guessing my every perception.


Trusting again is difficult, it changed from person to person, sometimes the sex cheating is easier than the mental cheating and the gaslighting. Good luck to you, you sound stroooong and good to go


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

stiletto said:


> What kind of retarded question is that?
> 
> The answer makes no excuse for the idiot.


Give him time, the post alone sounds like the tip of an ugly iceberg, but perhaps it's the first of many questions, I mean not that it is useful but one can learn a lot from why some people do some ugly sht. From my experience (and I did interviews with prostitutes) a lot of men go to them for sex, getting drug with them or talking, not the only options, some go because they are total idiots. From where I'm standing the beginning is trying to know and understand why people do things, not that I would have asked the same question in the same way, sure, isolated sounds harsh.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Sourpuss said:


> I don't know, don't be so trusting next time? People suck.


:dry:


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

OMG. Have you checked to see if you Contracted any STD's from his nasty ass? Like seriously, what a disgusting guy, to put you at risk like that. Besides that, some people out there are just sick, he obviously has a sex addiction. I don't know what to say, it's like in a world you have guys out there would who want a gf, want someone to cherish and all that, then you have guys out there who abuse and are perpetual line steppers.

Get better @Fern , I know I have never talked to you before. But get better, at least the worst is over and the guy is out of your life. Some people cant control themselves and we become burdened by their problems.


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> :dry:



thatrs not enough of a response from you.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Pseudonymity said:


> OMG. Have you checked to see if you Contracted any STD's from his nasty ass? Like seriously, what a disgusting guy, to put you at risk like that. Besides that, some people out there are just sick, he obviously has a sex addiction. I don't know what to say, it's like in a world you have guys out there would who want a gf, want someone to cherish and all that, then you have guys out there who abuse and are perpetual line steppers.
> 
> Get better @_Fern_ , I know I have never talked to you before. But get better, at least the worst is over and the guy is out of your life. Some people cant control themselves and we become burdened by their problems.


I got checked for everything and I'm in the clear  Thank you!





MisterD said:


> Did you 2 not have sex often?


We did. In fact, by the end of the relationship I was completely starved for physical affection. My offers of blowjobs were turned down several times per week.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

g_w said:


> Yick. At him, not you.
> 
> You probably wouldn't like a male hug right now, especially not a spiky armoured INTJ, so here's a coupon renewable for one (1)
> token of esteem, redeemable any time up until 1 year from now, or you don't need it any longer, which ever comes first.


Haha I have no aversion to male hugs  He's just one person, not the entire population!

(HUG) Muah


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

conscius said:


> Sorry for your experiences. Is this your first session with a therapist now?


The first time I saw a therapist was in September... and it was the ex's idea interestingly enough.

Basically he told me I was the problem in the relationship and that I needed to fix myself.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

sockratees said:


> well, i hope you don't get back with him


No...No.

It's highly likely that he'll come crawling back once he realizes he has no one left to manipulate, but I'll stay strong. One false move from him and I'm legit getting a restraining order.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

BenevolentBitterBleeding said:


> Off the top of my head: Get tested ASAP.
> * *
> 
> 
> ...


I got tested for everything the other day and I'm 100% in the clear. I'm one lucky duck! ^_^


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

Fern said:


> The first time I saw a therapist was in September... and it was the ex's idea interestingly enough.
> 
> Basically he told me I was the problem in the relationship and that I needed to fix myself.


I think any psychological problems you were experiencing was a result of his activities. I think a person, particularly a woman, is highly affected by what her guy is doing, even if she doesn't know directly that he is doing it. there is some type of subconscious thing maybe, or whatever. the guy thinks what is wrong with her, but doesn't think that maybe my cheating etc is the result, and she maybe just reflecting it. I have seen this many times, with my brother and others, who go outside of their relationship on the side, and their gf's at the sametime start reacting in a way they think is weird or odd, that they need help. its a unique thing to observe. People think they get away with things if someone doesn't know, but something else knows in the person, I feel this.


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## conscius (Apr 20, 2010)

Fern said:


> The first time I saw a therapist was in September... and it was the ex's idea interestingly enough.
> 
> Basically he told me I was the problem in the relationship and that I needed to fix myself.


Well that's not a good thing to say to someone....

I know therapists basically say that we can only change ourselves, so put the focus on the person going for therapy, but that's different from saying a person being the problem.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

@Fern

For an INFJ to find out she's fooled is doubly hurtful. However, if you harbor this thought, don't. To love a person is a willful blindness. 

I believe that he started mistreating, belittling, or picking fights because he's disgusted at himself for duping you or for living a double life. Ppl often transfer self hate onto the person(s) who love them. 

When I was married to my ex husband, he had an affair with his coworker. For months he was emotionally abusive to me, calling me names, etc.. Only after the affair was known that I realized that he hated me for not seeing what was going on. 

Hope you like your therapist. If not, don't hesitate to try someone else. It's good to let a professional you trust and click with handle this difficult fresh wound period. It'll speed up recovery and minimize recurring emotional setbacks in the future.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

chanteuse said:


> For an INFJ to find out she's fooled is doubly hurtful. However, if you harbor this thought, don't. To love a person is a willful blindness.


I mean, I knew *something *was going on. I always knew. I just didn't want to believe I was falling in love with a sociopath.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

Fern said:


> I mean, I knew *something *was going on. I always knew. I just didn't want to believe I was falling in love with a sociopath.


Sociopath can charm the pants off almost anyone. It's not your fault to fall for a charmer. When it comes to whom we fall for, we seem to have little control over, even knowing it being unwise.....


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## ficsci (May 4, 2011)

I'm sorry he did all that, and good for you for getting away from such a toxic person. Sounds like a massive egomaniac or psychopath :|


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Fern said:


> There. I said it. And God does it feel good to actually verbalize this fact.
> 
> I'm just going through such massive disillusionment right now and am horrified at the fact I was so thoroughly duped for years. Is this how people getting out of cults feel?
> 
> ...


I'm very sorry to hear that you went through all that *hugs*

That said, you are trying to take your pain and use it as something to help you grow and you still can show a lot of love towards others. If you want to know a secret (well, maybe it is not such a secret), but I think I have the most respect for people like that, or at least a great deal of respect for people like you. It shows that you are an amazing, strong person with a beautiful heart ^__^




Fern said:


> The first time I saw a therapist was in September... and it was the ex's idea interestingly enough.
> 
> Basically he told me I was the problem in the relationship and that I needed to fix myself.


What the meep?!?!?! So he sees prostitutes (who may or may not want to be prostitutes, I mean how would he know if they were forced into it or not, such as from human trafficking) while in a (I assume) monogamous relationship with someone. And then I am going to assume (since I know a couple people like this) that when you don't act how he wants you to act (probably because you are having issues with him and because you are your own person with your own thoughts and ideas), instead of trying to see what is wrong or even telling you to see a therapist to help you understand your feelings and the issues you may be having so that you can work them out with him to be happy ... instead of caring about his (at that time) gf's feelings, he decides to only look at things from his perspective and because he is not happy with you, he decides that you need to be "fixed" as if you are some object and not a meeping human being.

Is that correct?

If so, then he is a pretty disgusting person and I can't stand people like him (I don't hate people like that, because I don't believe in hate, but I strongly dislike them and sometimes I have to put some effort into not hating them because they are selfish meepholes)

I'm sorry you went through all that. To me, that screams controlling and abusive mindset and I am very sorry that you had to deal with that. In my experience, people like that don't know how to love another human being (at least not more that themselves) which is unfortunate because they will: 1) probably hurt more people and 2) never understand the joy of caring for someone beyond oneself. It may be painful now, but with your attitude, I believe this experience can help you to become a more loving, understanding, wiser, and stronger person who will one day be able to share her strength with others.
*BIG BIG BIG HUGS*


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## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

Fern said:


> I mean, I knew *something *was going on. I always knew. I just didn't want to believe I was falling in love with a sociopath.


No-one ever does. The thing is they present themselves as your everything and they are good at it. When you are faced with that it's very hard to see past it. The first emotional hit that comes we rationalise away, it's uncharacteristic, he was stressed, we give them the benefit of the doubt. By the time a pattern has formed the fog is already there and it's easier to believe we are the problem because he was after all, our everything, and sometimes still is. I honestly did not see it until some months after it was all over. And I pride myself on seeing past all manner of bullshit. That's the bit that hurts the most. 

I remember the first time I saw him without the mask. I remember clearly thinking, who the hell are you? I've never met you before. It was only a few seconds long. 

Condolences.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

I'm sorry you had to go through this sweetheart. I'm glad you had the courage to share this with everyone. Good luck with everything.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Fern said:


> There. I said it. And God does it feel good to actually verbalize this fact.
> 
> I'm just going through such massive disillusionment right now and am horrified at the fact I was so thoroughly duped for years. Is this how people getting out of cults feel?
> 
> ...


Holy fucking ... WHAT ?

Well, long hairs no mo', I dont know but if you need anything you can think of just lemme know ! fuck that have to be so harsh :|

I hope you re not you know, havin too much of a hard time toward your integral self. Because you re the one that was truthful all this time. And seriously your smile. I'd hate to think that you wouldn't be able to pull one of. You're strong ok ? remember that all the time and don't even fucking talk to that guy. Ever.

hang on in there *hug*


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Sygma said:


> Holy fucking ... WHAT ?
> 
> Well, long hairs no mo', I dont know but if you need anything you can think of just lemme know ! fuck that have to be so harsh :|
> 
> ...


You're the greatest ^_^


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> SO MUCH SWEETNESS



Awh, Meeeepers!! You're so very kind! 

Thank you for your honest response  Your clear indignation and anger at his behavior really helped me haha don't ask me why.

MUAH


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## Zosio (Mar 17, 2015)

First and foremost, I am so, so sorry. 

I had a similar experience. Not during an actual relationship (I think that the best description would be a "pseudo relationship"), but I know what it's like to be in bed with a psychopath. I allowed one to drag me around and beat me up for quite awhile, and he'd get any girl that he could and weigh the threat of him cheating on me with her over my head. I was in a really messed up place, but I eventually got out. 

A principle that is rather cliche, but true nonetheless: time heals. Everything is going to hurt like hell right now, and it's going to feel like you can't move on. But as time goes by, it'll really start to fade, if you allow it to (us INFJs are usually pretty good at letting things go, so I don't think you'll have a problem). I can promise you that much. It's been a little over a year for me, and I can honestly say that if I saw the psychopath in person, I probably wouldn't be that bothered by it. 

Look for red flags in your next relationships, but don't be mistrusting. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt until you see evidence (_real_ evidence; not just bad gut feelings or paranoid thoughts) that they don't deserve it. This is why giving yourself time is going to be important. It will be tempting to fall into someone else's arms for comfort, but for your sake and theirs, don't. You need to allow yourself to heal. If you don't, you're going to carry over your mistrust and apprehension from your last relationship. I tried to give myself a year, but I met my current boyfriend about 10 months into it. I don't regret being with him, but I can see some faults in my thinking that probably would have been better if I had given myself more time. I often catch myself wondering if he's cheating on me, or lying about something, and he's done nothing to deserve that from me. I really, really hope that my crazy thoughts never escape and hurt him. 

You're going to have to train yourself to realize that POS of a boyfriend isn't everyone that you'll be in a relationship/friendship with. There _are_ decent people out there who just want to love and be loved. I know it, because I was fortunate enough to find one. You'll have to train yourself to know that people aren't lying or trying to gaslight you all of the time. It will be hard to shake those thoughts and suspicions, but time and determination will eventually see them off

I hope the best for you, and I'm so sorry that you're having to go through this.


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## Lexicon Devil (Mar 14, 2014)

Fern said:


> It's hard to believe I'll able to be able to trust again *but deep down I know I'll be so very happy someday.
> 
> And I genuinely love you all.*


This.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Fern said:


> You're the greatest ^_^












All the pounces ;D


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## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

o.o
Did you punch him? Break his jaw? Kick him in the crotch? Go do it, then forget about that asshole.


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## MisterD (Feb 24, 2010)

People always have secrets.

If you were having sex often & he was seeing prostitutes, you have to nurture the relationship so conversations can be discussed openly, without judgement. However, he might take advantage of your understanding & undermine you. 

It depends on how much you want things to work out.

Welcome to the dating world. Move on, remember the good times & pay him no mind. What did you learn after this relationship?


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## MisterD (Feb 24, 2010)

You should be thankful this happened to you. Now that you know pain, you will truly value a genuine relationship. Don't allow it to make you bitter, I hope you're better than that.


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## knife (Jul 10, 2013)

Awww that sucks donkey balls. And I mean ... with prostitutes?!? WTF??

There aren't enough words to describe the anger ...

Hmmm the best advice I can offer is to talk it out. You're not the only person on this board who's been through that kind of abuse. That kind of duplicitous double lifestyle is just very draining and degrading to the one being fooled.

:sad:


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

I am so sorry. I have been with a couple of cray-crays myself. It sounds like you are doing the right things.

A couple of thoughts:
1) The way I changed the pattern of abusive men/toxic relationships was to actively step away from the dating scene. As a matter of fact, I decided to stay single for the rest of my life. 
I had a great time being single, I enjoyed *my* time, I enjoyed listening to myself, getting to know myself, being happy and content with myself. It was a great journey where I found my self-worth, self-respect, self trust and my boundaries.
Being single for a few years was my greatest gift to myself. You will never regret taking the time to date yourself - it is a great investment.
And being genuinely happy with yourself is the only true way to find a loving relationship, IME.

2) Take this as a lesson to learn to trust your instincts. They are seldom off. For me, it was a hard-earned lesson, but I finally got the message. 

Take care of yourself and with time, I hope that you can see this as a negative experience that resulted in something positive.
(Even though that might sound offensive and cold right now, but I mean it from the bottom of my heart.)


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Fern said:


> There. I said it. And God does it feel good to actually verbalize this fact.
> 
> I'm just going through such massive disillusionment right now and am horrified at the fact I was so thoroughly duped for years. Is this how people getting out of cults feel?
> 
> ...



are you really out of the relationship? since this is a typology forum and you have listed here that you're a type 9- I can relate to this in the fact that 8's and 9's are self forgetting and fall asleep to stuff going on around them... including abuse.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

Why on Earth would he use prostitutes when he already had a partner?  Not only is he an asshole, but he's also stupid.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

psychedelicmango said:


> o.o
> Did you punch him? Break his jaw? Kick him in the crotch? Go do it, then forget about that asshole.


I did slap him.... once.

But I felt soooo badly about it and he used that instance to convince me that *I* was the abusive one :/ 


I just don't want to put any more interaction energy into this situation. Sure, he won't let me have closure, but I just need to accept that as reality and be at peace.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

@_Fern_, this might not work for you, but it did help me. 

One of my exes left me for another woman that he found over a just a weekend trip. It was unexpected and of course painful. What made it easier for me to get over him/the situation was the fact that I recognized that the man I had loved didn't exist in reality. He was a dream, a fantasy - he was not even close to real. The man I loved would NEVER have treated me that way. 
That epiphany helped me stay away from him and also made me realize that I didn't need closure - how can you get closure on a dream/something that never existed?

And one more thought for the future; when it comes to abusive (or really any) past relationships, be very careful what you share with a new partner, even in a long term relationship. 
- It seemed to me that some of my partners would use my old relationships against me. Unfair and a breech of trust.
- A lot of people also seem to assume that people don't get bullied and abused w/o a reason. It is always baffling to me how little people generally understand about the psycology of abuse.
The less they know, the better, IMO.
My husband knows next to nothing about my past relationships and very little about my abusive childhood. It is a sort of 'safety' for me.

I strongly believe that people tend to overshare in relationships. The reason is idealistic, IMO; it's important to be honest and open in order to get close to a partner, but that can generate an unintentional power imbalance and potentially be used as extremely hurtful ammo in future disagreements.


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## Sygma (Dec 19, 2014)

Pseudonymity said:


> I think any psychological problems you were experiencing was a result of his activities. I think a person, particularly a woman, is highly affected by what her guy is doing, even if she doesn't know directly that he is doing it. there is some type of subconscious thing maybe, or whatever. the guy thinks what is wrong with her, but doesn't think that maybe my cheating etc is the result, and she maybe just reflecting it. I have seen this many times, with my brother and others, who go outside of their relationship on the side, and their gf's at the sametime start reacting in a way they think is weird or odd, that they need help. its a unique thing to observe. People think they get away with things if someone doesn't know, but something else knows in the person, I feel this.


Huh what ?

This is too much one sided bro, the truth is : life sometimes suck, deal with it. There are perfectly fine dudes who are beein cheated on because the girl felt out of love and thats it.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

That's genuinely horrible and disgusting.

He might have had his issues and his own troubles, of course he had a lot of personal baggage, but nothing ever justifies cheating behind someone's back even more so in a serial, reckless and crude way. He was a dishonest asshole to you and I'm glad you've been able to pick yourself up, as hard and painful as it can be.

I'm also glad that you came up as clean in your testing.
That guy isn't worth any health complications and you didn't deserve any of that. No one does.



MisterD said:


> .If you were having sex often & he was seeing prostitutes, you have to nurture the relationship so conversations can be discussed openly, without judgement. However, he might take advantage of your understanding & undermine you.
> 
> It depends on how much you want things to work out.


No. It's not her fault, it's not her who decided to break someone's trust and act in a scummy way.

If there's issues in a relationship, honesty is always the best policy and it's much better to admit a sexual or emotional problem without going off cheating behind someone's back and hurting their feelings and dignity. It was an abusive and toxic relationship and while everything teaches a lesson in life, it's not her fault and his behavior cannot be justified.

I can understand he might've been struggling but once you start actively wounding your partner then it's all on you. She's sharing an extremely hurtful chapter of her life and she deserves respect.


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## NotVoidzLol (May 14, 2015)

Fern said:


> There. I said it. And God does it feel good to actually verbalize this fact.
> 
> I'm just going through such massive disillusionment right now and am horrified at the fact I was so thoroughly duped for years. Is this how people getting out of cults feel?
> 
> ...


How were you so unaware and blind though? Sorry to sound offensive, but the signs should be pretty obvious.. this went on for years?

And technically it isn't even cheating, apparently he just needed good sex (not emotional bonding etc) which you didn't or couldn't provide (enough) for him... not really cheating since they were just prostitutes.

Hope you heal soon, and pick a better guy next time? 50% of the relationship is you, remember that. Learn from it and become a better person yourself too. Take responsibility for your own mistakes instead of pointing fingers like a whiny bitch (not saying you are, just illustrating a point).


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

NotVoidzLol said:


> How were you so unaware and blind though? Sorry to sound offensive, but the signs should be pretty obvious.. this went on for years?
> 
> And technically it isn't even cheating, apparently he just needed good sex (not emotional bonding etc) which you didn't or couldn't provide (enough) for him... not really cheating since they were just prostitutes.



Does this ever end? The victim-blaming?


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

Playing by the rules. Yep, I played by the rules and married a man getting his PhD in medical research only to have him tell me how he acted on his pedophilia. Stuck by him to help him work it out with numerous psychiatrists and years of riding his BPD rollercoaster.

Much happier not being married and living a liberated life and grateful that I don't live in a society that dictates how a woman should live.

For those sweethearts that have loving relationships, I'm happy for them, and I believe they truly exist, but I've become too disenchanted and weary to want to commit anymore.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Eudaimonia said:


> Playing by the rules. Yep, I played by the rules and married a man getting his PhD in medical research only to have him tell me how he acted on his pedophilia. Stuck by him to help him work it out with numerous psychiatrists and years of riding his BPD rollercoaster.
> 
> Much happier not being married and living a liberated life and grateful that I don't live in a society that dictates how a woman should live.
> 
> For those sweethearts that have loving relationships, I'm happy for them, and I believe they truly exist, but I've become too disenchanted and weary to want to commit anymore.



Please, and the other poster talking about how women want to "sow their wild oats". I wanted to be in a real commitment and loyal relationship since I was a teenager- that does not safeguard women from anything. No matter what our choices, these things STILL happen. How many men our own age, at that age, are really ready for that? I did not want to marry some old man. I liked guys roughly my own age and peer group (or sometimes younger) Non-stop f'ing blame and projection. They really think women are full of all these amazing choices and that all women have all this privilege and options and support. At the end of the day many of these men wished they could be women themselves, and they'd be the FIRST to be "whoring" themselves.


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## NotVoidzLol (May 14, 2015)

planetanarchy said:


> Does this ever end? The victim-blaming?


Does this ever end? Taking away women's responsibilities? Don't act like you're clueless children. You have brains too, signs of a guy who's cheating on you for years should be a dead giveaway. For all you know OP could be a batshit crazy woman, you're only hearing one part of the story "oh poor me victim", yes it sucks hard being cheated on. Did you ever ask yourself why you got cheated on? Why did you pick that kind of guy in the first place?



Eudaimonia said:


> Playing by the rules. Yep, I played by the rules and married a man getting his PhD in medical research only to have him tell me how he acted on his pedophilia. Stuck by him to help him work it out with numerous psychiatrists and years of riding his BPD rollercoaster.
> 
> Much happier not being married and living a liberated life and grateful that I don't live in a society that dictates how a woman should live.
> 
> For those sweethearts that have loving relationships, I'm happy for them, and I believe they truly exist, but I've become too disenchanted and weary to want to commit anymore.


Congrats for taking the easy route out (learning and growing to land better relationships instead of giving up), enjoy the cock carroussel when you're still a fertile young lady. Before you know it you'll be 40 with no stable relationship wondering why all the good men with actual jobs are taken.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Report @NotVoidzLol guys. He's not worth responding to. He's being insulting and rude. And these are his first posts as well. Doesn't bode well. Let the mods take care of him.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

NotVoidzLol said:


> Does this ever end? Taking away women's responsibilities? Don't act like you're clueless children. You have brains too, signs of a guy who's cheating on you for years should be a dead giveaway. For all you know OP could be a batshit crazy woman, you're only hearing one part of the story "oh poor me victim", yes it sucks hard being cheated on. Did you ever ask yourself why you got cheated on? Why did you pick that kind of guy in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats for taking the easy route out (learning and growing to land better relationships instead of giving up), enjoy the cock carroussel when you're still a fertile young lady. Before you know it you'll be 40 with no stable relationship wondering why all the good men with actual jobs are taken.



When you are in a commitment, you have an obligation to tell the person you found someone else or have a problem. END OF STORY.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

"cock carousel" another MGtow term. Seriously considering asking *mods* to take a vote to make rules against mgtow/mra/sexist harassment.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Report @_NotVoidzLol_ guys. He's not worth responding to. He's being insulting and rude. And these are his first posts as well. Doesn't bode well. Let the mods take care of him.


And FFS!!!! Not another f*cking mistyped INTJ!!! 
Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!!!!!

*tears out own hair in frustration*


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## NotVoidzLol (May 14, 2015)

planetanarchy said:


> When you are in a commitment, you have an obligation to tell the person you found someone else or have a problem. END OF STORY.


Of course, the guy OP was with sounds like a weak son of a bitch who didn't communicate his feelings like grown ups should. But that's only one half of the equation. Why did she choose an emotionally distant guy who couldn't communicate his concerns? Why didn't he communicate his sexual needs? And so on.

If you resort to "stop victim blaming!" you're selling women like OP short for completely taking away her responsibility and personal power of choice. She deserves to at least hold a bit of self respect in tact.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

NotVoidzLol said:


> Does this ever end? Taking away women's responsibilities? Don't act like you're clueless children. You have brains too, signs of a guy who's cheating on you for years should be a dead giveaway. For all you know OP could be a batshit crazy woman, you're only hearing one part of the story "oh poor me victim", yes it sucks hard being cheated on. Did you ever ask yourself why you got cheated on? Why did you pick that kind of guy in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats for taking the easy route out (learning and growing to land better relationships instead of giving up), enjoy the cock carroussel when you're still a fertile young lady. Before you know it you'll be 40 with no stable relationship wondering why all the good men with actual jobs are taken.


*sigh*

I was so ready to take your side on this one too. Its completely reasonable to think that if someone was cheating on you with prostitutes for years that there would be some obvious signs, unless the person was incredibly good at being sneaky. I didn't view it as "victim blaming".

But a post like this just overly negative, and just fuels negativity, its about the least effective way ever to get your point across.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Swede said:


> And FFS!!!! Not another f*cking mistyped INTJ!!!
> Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!!!!!
> 
> *tears out own hair in frustration*


Why do they got to be mistyped? If its an INTJ you don't like they are automatically mistyped? =p


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

planetanarchy said:


> Please, and the other poster talking about how women want to "sow their wild oats". I wanted to be in a real commitment and loyal relationship since I was a teenager- that does not safeguard women from anything. No matter what our choices, these things STILL happen. How many men our own age, at that age, are really ready for that? I did not want to marry some old man. I liked guys roughly my own age and peer group (or sometimes younger) Non-stop f'ing blame and projection. They really think women are full of all these amazing choices and that all women have all this privilege and options and support. At the end of the day many of these men wished they could be women themselves, and they'd be the FIRST to be "whoring" themselves.


To switch it up a bit. I knew a guy in University who was lovely and he married a girl who was petite and shy. You would never have thought that she would take a knife to him and kick him out of the house. She ended up lashing out at everyone. It was a little strange, but I felt sorry for him because he wanted to still work it out with her and she just snapped. Later my friend (girl) was her roommate for a while and couldn't take how she would just bark at her for petty things out of the blue which shed more light on this girl's personality. 

Yeah, you never know. Life is complicated and full of the extremes that people like to ignore. I was all about committing and dreaming of being the most supportive, best wife ever. That was one cold slap of realty in my face which shattered my naive idealism. One thing to spat out a lot of theoretical rhetoric, another is to actually face the complexities that life often brings which throws a spanner in those theories.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

NotVoidzLol said:


> Of course, the guy OP was with sounds like a weak son of a bitch who didn't communicate his feelings like grown ups should. But that's only one half of the equation. Why did she choose an emotionally distant guy who couldn't communicate his concerns? Why didn't he communicate his sexual needs? And so on.
> 
> If you resort to "stop victim blaming!" you're selling women like OP short for completely taking away her responsibility and personal power of choice. She deserves to at least hold a bit of self respect in tact.


Stop coming here to harass women, and telling them to ride a "cock-carousel". Speak for your own body if you want to go ride some dicks.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Swede said:


> And FFS!!!! Not another f*cking mistyped INTJ!!!
> Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhh!!!!!
> 
> *tears out own hair in frustration*



Sorry to report, but since being involved with the manosphere I have found out, the majority of them ARE INTJ's.


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

NotVoidzLol said:


> Does this ever end? Taking away women's responsibilities? Don't act like you're clueless children. You have brains too, signs of a guy who's cheating on you for years should be a dead giveaway. For all you know OP could be a batshit crazy woman, you're only hearing one part of the story "oh poor me victim", yes it sucks hard being cheated on. Did you ever ask yourself why you got cheated on? Why did you pick that kind of guy in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats for taking the easy route out (learning and growing to land better relationships instead of giving up), enjoy the cock carroussel when you're still a fertile young lady. Before you know it you'll be 40 with no stable relationship wondering why all the good men with actual jobs are taken.



I'm 41 and I'm enjoying myself immensely. Thank you. LOL!


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

On the flip side, I think the mentality of "he said something offensive lets ban him as soon as possible" its pretty bad as well.

Like seriously, hes banned in 5 minutes? Ok.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Sporadic Aura said:


> On the flip side, I think the mentality of "he said something offensive lets ban him as soon as possible" its pretty bad as well.
> 
> Like seriously, hes banned in 5 minutes? Ok.


There's a possibility that he was a past user who has been banned already, making a duplicate account.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Sporadic Aura said:


> *sigh*
> 
> I was so ready to take your side on this one too. Its completely reasonable to think that if someone was cheating on you with prostitutes for years that there would be some obvious signs, *unless the person was incredibly good at being sneaky*. I didn't view it as "victim blaming".
> 
> But a post like this just overly negative, and just fuels negativity, its about the least effective way ever to get your point across.


Yeah, that's part of the problem. Do you know how many 'sneaky' people there are out in the world? Many. 
People with NPD, sociopaths, drug users/alcoholics, porn addicts, etc. What level of manipulative skills does a person have to get up to before the people in his/her way are viewed as 'victims' vs 'idiots'?

I'd venture a guess that most people who have dated a few times have had the misfortune of dating at least one 'sneaky' person. Likewise, all people who have had a fair number of friends/acquaintances have had at least on sneaky friend/acquaintance.

Do you know how many child abuse victims there are in the world? Many. 
Why is this relevant? Because victims of child abuse risk getting abused in all their adult relationships too. Unfortunately, many are not aware of the fact that they a) were abused as children or b) have not healed from their childhood enough to form healthy relationships.

Any type of healthy relationship requires trust and honesty - from both parties. It's really that simple. 

In general:
I find it interesting that when women are suspicious of their partner, they are stamped as "crazy" and when they trust their partner, they are deemed "gullible".


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## IIIIII (Oct 2, 2013)

planetanarchy said:


> Hah, if only said label suddenly made that true. I have known many from the manosphere on a personal level who confided in me many things. They are full of shit, and every single of them eventually confessed to treating women badly in their private lives. From severe emotional abuse and seeing women in such a negative and toxic way, to another permanently mutilating his wife's face and putting her in the hospital. They only add and influence to more toxicity to men's psyches for a temporary nugget of truth, that ends up being completely distorted anyway, useless and harmful. I wished I had never known such a thing, it has effected me as well.


As a male that was in an abusive relationship with a female for 17 years, you know women always seem to want to say fucked up things about men and what they do them, however they never take anytime to look at how badly they treat the men in their lives. The first thing a woman will yell is that he abused me and did all this fucked up shit to me, everybody gets all defensive over the female, but when it happens to a guy, society basically looks the other way, and expects the guy to suck it up. 

In my case threats of physical abuse were the final straw (.i.e telling me that she was going to have me killed by her gangsta ass babies daddy and his crew) , I really don't play that shit, however seems that law enforcement and everyone else was ready to jump down my throat because the woman decided to play the role. I know women get abused all the time and it isn't right, but in reality I get tired of the double standard. 

So in some cases men have every reason to look at women in the way you stated in the quoted post, simply because there are those of you out there, that do this type of shit to men and think its funny and that you can get away with it simply because they are female. The worst part of it is that they never learn their lesson and go on to do the same crap to other people, because in their mind it's ok.

In some respects I wish that she would of tried to harm me, so I could of went right on ahead and put a bullet in her ass legally! I don't hate all women but I get sick of the abusive shit that a lot of the more fucked up ones among your sex tend to pull.


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

NotVoidzLol said:


> How were you so unaware and blind though? Sorry to sound offensive, but the signs should be pretty obvious.. this went on for years?
> 
> And technically it isn't even cheating, apparently he just needed good sex (not emotional bonding etc) which you didn't or couldn't provide (enough) for him... not really cheating since they were just prostitutes.
> 
> Hope you heal soon, and pick a better guy next time? 50% of the relationship is you, remember that. Learn from it and become a better person yourself too. Take responsibility for your own mistakes instead of pointing fingers like a whiny bitch (not saying you are, just illustrating a point).


This guy is a sad attempt at a troll. He's using the guise of a misogynist to fan the flames. No one is this idiotic in real life unless they have a deathwish.


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## 626Stitch (Oct 22, 2010)

> except insofar as they can take the first bite out of her, ruining her ability to bond successfully with any other man.


Lol you will be hard pressed to find a women who is anywhere near halfway as damaged as the men on the internet who have had a relationship fail or stayed in a bad way to long and had an epic tantrum about it.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Metasentient said:


> ^ Which banned one is that?


Don't touch it you may get infected. Just report it.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

It's not just the harassment and obsession that's scary, it's the reality that individuals like Eliot Rodger tend to express that type of sentiment. =\ Could be a real menace in the making.


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## Swede (Apr 2, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> It's not just the harassment and obsession that's scary, it's the reality that individuals like Eliot Rodger tend to express that type of sentiment. =\ Could be a real menace in the making.


Yeah and the impression that women only see themselves as sexual beings whose sole existence is to attract men. *sigh*
Yeah, I'm sure that's the meaning of life. Attracting men with my sexual allure before I've expired. 


Oh, and women are emotional and irrational...


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## Eudaimonia (Sep 24, 2013)

Very good example of how charming some people can be. I'm beyond all that and untouchable.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

Okay, I do apologize for bringing a dead horse up, but...

I don't know. Reading that was a little more... evocative of negativity in me (despite the stupid content of the troll's posts)... because I'm just thinking, 

Apparently there are really crazy feminazis/misandrists out there, and I've no doubt that's true, but... has anyone seen so much vitriol come from a female directed at 50% of the world's population? Not the usual tired "men are all the same" or even "men are pigs" -- just take his posts and rewrite them so that the male genitalia is referenced as the female's, accusing men of crawling with STDs, etc. I have never, ever seen that, and I go through all your usual Jezebel and other strongly-feminist sites. It's just such a mind boggling disparity, and I never see it being brought up that much (well, some people do, but it's never dramatically called to attention).


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> Okay, I do apologize for bringing a dead horse up, but...
> 
> I don't know. Reading that was a little more... evocative of negativity in me (despite the stupid content of the troll's posts)... because I'm just thinking,
> 
> Apparently there are really crazy feminazis/misandrists out there, and I've no doubt that's true, but... has anyone seen so much vitriol come from a female directed at 50% of the world's population? Not the usual tired "men are all the same" or even "men are pigs" -- just take his posts and rewrite them so that the male genitalia is referenced as the female's, accusing men of crawling with STDs, etc. I have never, ever seen that, and I go through all your usual Jezebel and other strongly-feminist sites. It's just such a mind boggling disparity, and I never see it being brought up that much (well, some people do, but it's never dramatically called to attention).



Not a dead horse, and excellent points and observations. We still have huge problems with the way women are seen and treated and handled- despite the improvements, more needs to be done.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

planetanarchy said:


> Not a dead horse, and excellent points and observations. We still have huge problems with the way women are seen and treated and handled- despite the improvements, more needs to be done.


I'm just wondering what it would be seen as if a female wrote all that about men. I imagine most people, including feminists, would want to distance themselves from that. But if it's coming from guys, it's like... it's considered "bad", but it's like we're so used to it that we're not surprised anymore? What's up with that?

I'm definitely not advocating we start slinging shit back though (though I'm totally guilty of that because I feel like it'll make a bigger impact), but yeah, it's... interesting.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> I'm just wondering what it would be seen as if a female wrote all that about men. I imagine most people, including feminists, would want to distance themselves from that. But if it's coming from guys, it's like... it's considered "bad", but it's like we're so used to it that we're not surprised anymore? What's up with that?
> 
> I'm definitely not advocating we start slinging shit back though (though I'm totally guilty of that because I feel like it'll make a bigger impact), but yeah, it's... interesting.


I have to be honest, I don't know what the best solution would be. I actually tried to help men that were involved in these things at one point because I tried to relate to them and empathize with their struggles as human beings, but they did not want to let go of the echo chambers and that they were the victims and oppressed by women- the oppressors and "privileged" class. They will not let go of this myth of injustice. As far as I'm concerned, as much as mgtows and certain people within the manoshpere has tried to redeem them with any legitimate issues- they are irredeemable and inexcusable, and nothing a regular psychologist couldn't help with- special movement not needed to validate and enable their abuse and misogyny- because that is all it is, at minimum and internet whine movement, at worse destroying the psyches of men one by one and feeding their fears and hate and harming the women and children around them. Nazism and Isis had the same start.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Swede said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think a fundamental problem is that people can't accept what hasn't been apart of their lived experience, if it hasn't happened to them there is a extreme degree of skepticism.
Men who don't understand sexism because they don't get sexually harassed with the same prevalence as women, whites who don't think race is a problem and so on.
I think this is what plays into the denial a lot of the time, they have no clue due to a lack of personal experience of it so people either play moderate skeptic to outright rejector.
Because problems don't exist when you don't have to live with them, out of sight, out of mind.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Wellsy said:


> I think a fundamental problem is that people can't accept what hasn't been apart of their lived experience, if it hasn't happened to them there is a extreme degree of skepticism.
> Men who don't understand sexism because they don't get sexually harassed with the same prevalence as women, whites who don't think race is a problem and so on.
> I think this is what plays into the denial a lot of the time, they have no clue due to a lack of personal experience of it so people either play moderate skeptic to outright rejector.
> Because problems don't exist when you don't have to live with them, out of sight, out of mind.


thank you for this, I was just typing something like this above and lost my message.


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

I just... it's still weird to me though. When any defined group tells me consistently that they have problems, especially if I haven't even considered those problems occurring in my life because they just wouldn't, I tend to believe them (it's just not entirely logical to blanket-dismiss a large group of people), unless something happens several times to make me disbelieve that. Why would anyone call these things into question in the first place, and with such gusto?


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## Metalize (Dec 18, 2014)

planetanarchy said:


> I have to be honest, I don't know what the best solution would be. I actually tried to help men that were involved in these things at one point because I tried to relate to them and empathize with their struggles as human beings, but they did not want to let go of the echo chambers and that they were the victims and oppressed by women- the oppressors and "privileged" class. They will not let go of this myth of injustice. As far as I'm concerned, as much as mgtows and certain people within the manoshpere has tried to redeem them with any legitimate issues- they are irredeemable and inexcusable, and nothing a regular psychologist couldn't help with- special movement not needed to validate and enable their abuse and misogyny- because that is all it is, at minimum and internet whine movement, at worse destroying the psyches of men one by one and feeding their fears and hate and harming the women and children around them. Nazism and Isis had the same start.


I think it's as Wellsy said (remember posting something similar in a thread about gender and morality), and it's also that some people just do not want to take responsibility, because if they're the responsible ones, then the onus falls on them to make changes... and who wants all that extra work? The alternative narrative's just too convenient.


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> I just... it's still weird to me though. When any defined group tells me consistently that they have problems, especially if I haven't even considered those problems occurring in my life because they just wouldn't, I tend to believe them (it's just not entirely logical to blanket-dismiss a large group of people), unless something happens several times to make me disbelieve that. Why would anyone call these things into question in the first place, and with such gusto?




*nods*
@Garek your eloquence and experience in this realm would be much appreciated to answer. you're better with this than I...I have no words anymore for the MRA/MGTOW freaks and am so worn. 9 years!


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## planetanarchy (Aug 10, 2013)

Metasentient said:


> I think it's as Wellsy said (remember posting something similar in a thread about gender and morality), and it's also that some people just do not want to take responsibility, because if they're the responsible ones, then the onus falls on them to make changes... and who wants all that extra work? The alternative narrative's just too convenient.


I sense the feelings of despair and being worn by these dudebros too. It's hurtful, as if we don't have enough shit to deal with as women.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

Oh Hai said:


> I made one last account to come here and laugh at you.
> 
> You were cheated on for years for a reason, homegirl.
> 
> ...


Whoa... That's honestly the most pathetic thing I've seen all year. Well, excluding my ex of course.

I would not put it past him to post on here truly. He knew I had an account here. I even told him my username.


So.. Hey, Brad ^_^ How's the free pussy-less life treating ya? You should be served my Order of Protection against you any day now. Tah-tah!


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

IIIIII said:


> Good luck,I wish that I would of had your intestinal fortitude after my situation, but I was a mess.
> 
> I hope it gets better for you after this point.


I've had to eat a lot of shit to build up this intestinal fortitude of which you speak ;D


And thank you! You are very kind.


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## Garek (Mar 12, 2015)

Metasentient said:


> I just... it's still weird to me though. When any defined group tells me consistently that they have problems, especially if I haven't even considered those problems occurring in my life because they just wouldn't, I tend to believe them (it's just not entirely logical to blanket-dismiss a large group of people), unless something happens several times to make me disbelieve that. Why would anyone call these things into question in the first place, and with such gusto?


I don't think @planetanarchy is dismissing men as a group or even men's grievances _per se_, but that is altogether different from dismissing an entire political-ideological movement, whether that's white supremacists, ISIS, or MRA/MRM/MGTOW/TFL (True Forced Loneliness)/"manosphere" inhabitants. The difference is that men and males are not an ideological or political trend but a sociobiological fact of life. Does that make sense?

I first ran across the MRA/MRM/MGTOW thing online on YouTube in 2010 before they got really big on the internet. I didn't dismiss them out of hand. I looked at their publications, their grievances (real and imaginary), argued with their spokesmen and followers, and after a lot of digging concluded that almost all of their claims regarding oppression, stigmatization, and injustice directed at men were either baseless or extremely distorted and their political conclusions and program 100% reactionary. They are basically a backlash against feminism; *opposition to feminism* (in its liberal, radical, or first, second, third wave variants) and not issues facing men or causing hardship to male *is the driving impetus behind MRA/MRM/MGTOW*. For example, they don't fight for the rights of gay men even though gay men are sometimes killed in the streets just for being gay men. A movement concerned with the welfare of men would stand up to this, but MRA/MRM are extremely homophobic. For them, *women* (not just feminists) *are the enemy*, the evil to be combated and feminists, as champions of women's rights and interests, are the worst of the worst (so to speak). Women who are raped are liars and "attention whores"; women who are victims of domestic violence must have done something to deserve or trigger it (like the rape victims); mothers who take the fathers of their child to court for child support are "gold diggers"; women who turn them down for dates are "sluts," ungrateful, and stupid for not giving the "nice guy" sex.

If the government was run by MRA/MRM, every domestic violence law would be repealed, every women's shelter either closed or opened up to men, every child support enforcement and paternity test law abolished, the right to a no-fault divorce for women would be gone, laws protecting women from sexual harassment and pay discrimination would be repealed, abortion would be banned, and women would be subject to draft just as men are to fight and die in a nation's wars. These are their political goals.

I don't know about you, but that is not a world that I or most people would want to or could stand to live in. Unless and until MRA/MRM/etc. come up with legitimate male grievances and focus on building men up instead of tearing women down, they not only deserve blanket dismissal but utter contempt. EDIT: They are creating an environment where (some) men think it's OK to throw your four-year-old daughter off a cliff because you didn't want her to begin with and it's 'unfair' that you have to pay child support for a child you didn't want. Sick.


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## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

Garek said:


> I don't think @planetanarchy is dismissing men as a group or even men's grievances _per se_, but that is altogether different from dismissing an entire political-ideological movement, whether that's white supremacists, ISIS, or MRA/MRM/MGTOW/TFL (True Forced Loneliness)/"manosphere" inhabitants. The difference is that men and males are not an ideological or political trend but a sociobiological fact of life. Does that make sense?
> 
> I first ran across the MRA/MRM/MGTOW thing online on YouTube in 2010 before they got really big on the internet. I didn't dismiss them out of hand. I looked at their publications, their grievances (real and imaginary), argued with their spokesmen and followers, and after a lot of digging concluded that almost all of their claims regarding oppression, stigmatization, and injustice directed at men were either baseless or extremely distorted and their political conclusions and program 100% reactionary. They are basically a backlash against feminism; *opposition to feminism* (in its liberal, radical, or first, second, third wave variants) and not issues facing men or causing hardship to male *is the driving impetus behind MRA/MRM/MGTOW*. For example, they don't fight for the rights of gay men even though gay men are sometimes killed in the streets just for being gay men. A movement concerned with the welfare of men would stand up to this, but MRA/MRM are extremely homophobic. For them, *women* (not just feminists) *are the enemy*, the evil to be combated and feminists, as champions of women's rights and interests, are the worst of the worst (so to speak). Women who are raped are liars and "attention whores"; women who are victims of domestic violence must have done something to deserve or trigger it (like the rape victims); mothers who take the fathers of their child to court for child support are "gold diggers"; women who turn them down for dates are "sluts," ungrateful, and stupid for not giving the "nice guy" sex.
> 
> ...


Well there is obviously a ton of bitterness and hurt there. Hateful opinions like that don't just form out of thin air.

I'm thoroughly unconvinced with the "they just don't get laid so they are bitter" or "they are just bitter that some women are gaining power now". Those factors are not big enough.

If the way you are portraying them is accurate, that means there is a subset group of men that are extremely bitter and hateful, and thats pretty concerning. And I'd want to try to find what the cause of that bitterness is.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Fern said:


> Does anyone have any advice when it comes to what I'm talking about?


Learn to say no. You can still be nice about it. 

Don't make excuses for people and when they make their excuses, say no. 

No is a beautiful word once you embrace it fellow 9w8.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

bethdeth said:


> Learn to say no. You can still be nice about it.
> 
> Don't make excuses for people and when they make their excuses, say no.
> 
> No is a beautiful word once you embrace it fellow 9w8.


Authentic Man knows the way!


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## netfences (Feb 18, 2015)

bethdeth said:


> Learn to say no. You can still be nice about it. Don't make excuses for people and when they make their excuses, say no. No is a beautiful word once you embrace it fellow 9w8.


In other words, close yourself off from the world, never forgive anyone and embrace isolation as doctrine. This doesn't seem a particularly inspiring way to live a life to me but then again, given the history of your posts I'm not surprised to read this from you. Fern, I've seen your photos and I'm very partial to your look as I have stated publicly. I hate to be the devil's advocate here but the sexual interaction of a couple is a key aspect of its health. You must take some responsibility of being oblivious to your companions needs and also recognize the possibility that your companion saw his actions as the least harmful way to address the sexual incompatibility of your relationship. Would it have been better if he found someone else whom he could take seriously and love wholeheartedly? That would have been a more complete betrayal. Some people have the ability to disconnect the sexual act from emotional involvement and to them, _cheating _is not really cheating. I understand how difficult this can be to understand when your cognitive map is inflexible but if you can place yourself into this frame of mind, you will recognize its validity. I'll be back in NYC in two weeks, if you find yourself there for whatever reason, we should meet.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

netfences said:


> In other words, close yourself off from the world, never forgive anyone and embrace isolation as doctrine. This doesn't seem a particularly inspiring way to live a life to me but then again, given the history of your posts I'm not surprised to read this from you. Fern, I've seen your photos and I'm very partial to your look as I have stated publicly. I hate to be the devil's advocate here but the sexual interaction of a couple is a key aspect of its health. You must take some responsibility of being oblivious to your companions needs and also recognize the possibility that your companion saw his actions as the least harmful way to address the sexual incompatibility your relationship. Would it have been better if he found someone else whom he could take seriously and love wholeheartedly? That would have been a more complete betrayal. Some people have the ability to disconnect the sexual act from emotional involvement and to them, _cheating _is not really cheating. I understand how difficult this can be to understand when your cognitive map is inflexible but if you can place yourself into this frame of mind, you will recognize its validity. I'll be back in NYC in two weeks, if you find yourself there for whatever reason, we should meet.


Huh? Nope. 

It's another way of saying to set boundaries.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

netfences said:


> In other words, close yourself off from the world, never forgive anyone and embrace isolation as doctrine. This doesn't seem a particularly inspiring way to live a life to me but then again, given the history of your posts I'm not surprised to read this from you. Fern, I've seen your photos and I'm very partial to your look as I have stated publicly. I hate to be the devil's advocate here but the sexual interaction of a couple is a key aspect of its health. You must take some responsibility of being oblivious to your companions needs and also recognize the possibility that your companion saw his actions as the least harmful way to address the sexual incompatibility your relationship. Would it have been better if he found someone else whom he could take seriously and love wholeheartedly? That would have been a more complete betrayal. Some people have the ability to disconnect the sexual act from emotional involvement and to them, _cheating _is not really cheating. I understand how difficult this can be to understand when your cognitive map is inflexible but if you can place yourself into this frame of mind, you will recognize its validity. I'll be back in NYC in two weeks, if you find yourself there for whatever reason, we should meet.


Saying "No" is important to asserting ones self rather than beckoning to every request or demand of others. Such advice doesn't necessarily lead to the slippery slope you've concluded which seems rather distant from what advice was actually given. 

Also, why do you think @Fern doesn't take responsibility for maintaining her relationship?
Think it seems pretty strange to twist this into a failure of Fern, even if such issues of intimacy were present in her relationship, this still wouldn't really undermine the significance of cheating through out the entire relationship. Sounds more like diminishing responsibility of the cheaters actions and trying to push it off on Fern with a assumption of how she must've neglected her relationship to support a rationalization for cheating.


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## netfences (Feb 18, 2015)

Wellsy said:


> Such advice doesn't necessarily lead to the slippery slope you've concluded which seems rather distant from what advice was actually given.


Really? "Learn to say no" as a default recommendation? I don't know how you can read bethdeth's advice and come to any other conclusion unless you were trying to make brownie points with a moderator. Whatever, toadies abound everywhere nowadays. Another point, why do you think Fern received absolutely no signals that there was a problem? More than likely, her companion hinted at his needs and she either refused to acknowledge them or was oblivious to them. In either case, some of the responsibility is hers. I am so tired of the portrayal of the female victim, we are 50 years into womens lib and the pettiness and passive aggressiveness of their nature has not even been muted even a little. In fact, we have bizarre phenomena of men who validate this rubbish and emulate this passive aggressiveness. How much further effeminization of the male has to happen before we begin to address it?


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

netfences said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know how you take advice that states "_Learn to say no._" equates to "_close yourself off from the world, never forgive anyone and embrace isolation as doctrine._"
It's not brownie points, I just think the conclusion you drew was absurd and no where near what the advice states or intended to state, you've taken a sentiment of assert one's self on the basis of being willing to say no to isolationist tendencies and distrust.

Because I rather make deductions from what I can actually know rather than assume that hints were there, it presumes that when people do terrible things there's always evidence to tip people off which is a bold assumption I'm no comfortable adhering to. 
See how you say"more than likely", there doesn't seem to be anything expressed in this thread that actually supports your conclusion except you're filling in you're own story of how things must've been.

No, she isn't responsible for his behaviour, you seem quite prone to projecting a lot onto what isn't explicitly stated and make conclusions without examples that may even imply such conclusions are true. You're stating a lot of assertions with nothing to support it except your imagination, just seems like piss poor reasoning to me to to dictate how things where for something you have no direct insight into.
Interesting you found this as an opportunity to complained about an unrelated topic on perceived effeminate men and womens lib, might want to examine why a criticism evokes this response.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

netfences said:


> How much further effeminization of the male has to happen before we begin to address it?


We'll stop as soon as I get official glitter chapstick.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

netfences said:


> I hate to be the devil's advocate here but the sexual interaction of a couple is a key aspect of its health. You must take some responsibility of being oblivious to your companions needs and also recognize the possibility that your companion saw his actions as the least harmful way to address the sexual incompatibility of your relationship. Would it have been better if he found someone else whom he could take seriously and love wholeheartedly? That would have been a more complete betrayal. Some people have the ability to disconnect the sexual act from emotional involvement and to them, _cheating _is not really cheating. I understand how difficult this can be to understand when your cognitive map is inflexible but if you can place yourself into this frame of mind, you will recognize its validity. I'll be back in NYC in two weeks, if you find yourself there for whatever reason, we should meet.


Dude, he was turning ME down for sex *all *the time. I was starved for it. He treated it like it was a privilege for me to get it. It was messed up. Also he was emotionally, physically and psychologically abusive and lied to me on a daily basis, and any of those are reason enough for a relationship to not work.

And he also loved other girls on the side and formed strong emotional attachments, complaining about me and sharing intimate details of my battle with depression. 
I'm not about playing this comparison game, thanks.

I can see where you're coming from though. But, yeah... I'm never going to meet up with you. Get your head checked.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

netfences said:


> Really? "Learn to say no" as a default recommendation? I don't know how you can read bethdeth's advice and come to any other conclusion unless you were trying to make brownie points with a moderator. Whatever, toadies abound everywhere nowadays. Another point, why do you think Fern received absolutely no signals that there was a problem? More than likely, her companion hinted at his needs and she either refused to acknowledge them or was oblivious to them. In either case, some of the responsibility is hers. I am so tired of the portrayal of the female victim, we are 50 years into womens lib and the pettiness and passive aggressiveness of their nature has not even been muted even a little. In fact, we have bizarre phenomena of men who validate this rubbish and emulate this passive aggressiveness. How much further effeminization of the male has to happen before we begin to address it?


I think you read what I said wrong. A typical 9 will empathise and make excuses for bad behaviour and neglect their own needs. That is all. I have no idea why such advice on how to set boundaries is anywhere near where you headed. 

It's probably time to stop though as this thread isn't about me or women's lib.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

bethdeth said:


> A typical 9 will empathise and make excuses for bad behaviour and neglect their own needs. That is all.


^Yep.

Sadly, that was me precisely. Being able to say know and define my limits and values is crucial!


I grew up in a home without boundaries, so it's important to learn these as a young adult  Thank you.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Fern said:


> I think this is part of the downside of being an empathetic person.
> 
> It's almost a vicious cycle honestly:
> Toxic people are drawn to our empathy like moths to a flame, and we allow them to remain in our lives because we genuinely care for them... which makes them want to stay until our "blind pity" disgusts them and they throw us away.
> ...


It's been in recent years...mostly in recent months, I've began figuring this out. It's really as simple as: Does the person affect you negatively? If so, what can you do to change that? Generally, the options are pretty straight forward:

1) Speak with them about it.
2) Set boundaries/ remove them from your life (entirely, or distancing). 

By the way, I don't know if you grew up in a highly dysfunctional home like I did, but one of the signs of a person who has is mixing up love with pity. I remained friends with a controlling and belittling person for 15 years because I pitied her and could see through her tough facade. Whenever I was around her, I looked forward to being away from her. I dreaded being around her, and felt either obligated or anxious when it came to ANY communication with her. Why the HELL was I friends with someone who brought out those kind of feelings? I thought it was just unconditional love...accepting her for who she is, but I learned it was pity. I felt sorry for her that she was such an unhappy person and needed to micromanage everything in her life, including relationships (because of fear, deep down). I let her get away with making me feel bad, because of this.

Biggest thing I learned in all of that...I had the power to stop the way I felt around her the entire time. People treat you the way you let them treat you. Of course some people are sly about it, and do things without us knowing, like the situation with your ex.

So back to the main points...

If they bring out negative feelings in you, do something about it. Either speak with them about the issues straight up, or cut away. If you find yourself nervous or even afraid to speak with the person, that could be an even BIGGER reason to cut away, because relationships of any kind should be a place where communication can be safely expressed. Some people have a hard time being assertive, and that's different than feeling as though if you speak to them about the issues, they will blow up. I don't have a problem telling people things straight up, unless they are reactive types, but I've learned I don't have to censor myself in relational communication
because another person can't control themselves. 

I think I'm rambling at this point, but I hope it makes sense


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

At the risk of coming off as an ass, I have already given my thoughts in this thread, it was a horrible thing on his part, but all people fall short of what is possible for us, we all are dysfunctional, some more than others, he just happened to be more than others. But at the same time, which seems like it has already happened, personal accountability is important. We can't do jack to change anyone, we can do nothing for others in this regard, we can only work with what we have in our own hand, and that is our own psychological life. So questions must be asked, and not asked from the general direction of this thread, or even my older post, which was like bashing the guy for being what he is an what he obviously cant control, as we are all slaves to our past and it is not easy to change. 

The questions become, why did I attract such a person? What does that say about me? How can I attract someone better? Why did I remain in a situation that is destructive? And why do I go for people, who seem to be this way? These are really questions not about the thread starter but really, relationships in general. Some say we experience all these failures to find the right one, to know what we really want. But lets look at this from a different perspective, since we can only work with our ownself, then once we get out of our own system our hate or displeasure of others, we can then shed that judging light on ourselves, and see how we created this situation. 

Before people get mad at me, hear me out, I approach life as an egotist in the right way. Not in vanity, but I attempt to apply all things to myself, as primarily speaking, it doesn't really matter what a person does, at the end of the day, I have to deal with what I am, and I have to deal with what situations like that live in me, they dont. So I think, how useful it is for me, to make everything about the other person? I know they are a machine, on autopilot, I know how silly they were, foolish, they are like the weather, when it rains the streets get wet. simple. But what about me? Where did I go wrong, why did I even accept this situation from the first? I once got into a growing relationship with someone, who was living with someone else whom they had been in a supposed relationship for years... obviously this wasnt going to end well, so why did i put myself in such a situation like this? I can blame them, and sure I maybe right in my judgments, but how does being right about them help me? How does it help me to not end up in another horrible situation where I, at the end, suffer? I can't do anything for another persons situation, but only myself, so I have to approach it from if I had created it. But without judging and hating what I see, but to be impartial and actually be open to how I am. I want to be different, I want something better, I feel it wont com by looking for what is in others so much as it will looking in myself. I just think we enter situations that are made for us to enter, if not, we would not have attracted them. I have been through some horrible shit, but at the sametime, I wonder, to what degree did I enable these moments. Perhaps this is stupid of me, and perhaps I am an idiot because of it, but I think, its better to approach situations from how you can actually change. hopefully this comes off as nothing like that one guy, I hope.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Pseudonymity said:


> At the risk of coming off as an ass...


I get what you're saying here and agree for the most part. The only thing that got me was towards the end when you mentioned horrible shit happening in your life and wondering what you might've done to enable it. I get what you mean here, but also think it's not quite that black and white. Sometimes things happen to people and they did NOTHING that warrants it...like a child being abused, for instance. 

Accepting accountability is a beautiful thing that many people can't do, but there is also a point of accepting too much of the responsibilty.

Finding the balance is what people should really strive for, Imo.


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## Cesspool (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm sorry


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

Enfpleasantly said:


> I get what you're saying here and agree for the most part. The only thing that got me was towards the end when you mentioned horrible shit happening in your life and wondering what you might've done to enable it. I get what you mean here, but also think it's not quite that black and white. Sometimes things happen to people and they did NOTHING that warrants it...like a child being abused, for instance.
> 
> Accepting accountability is a beautiful thing that many people can't do, but there is also a point of accepting too much of the responsibilty.
> 
> Finding the balance is what people should really strive for, Imo.



Ah, oh I wasn't talking about stuff like that, being abused or anything. But things which definitely, in this life, has some relation to how you are. Relationships seem to fall under this, but in childhood, this was different -- whet we have become was not completely formed, we can't be to blame for the situations we are born with, or how we were formed by virtue of those circumstances. There is a balance of course, but practically speaking, when it comes to relationships, its best for the person to be sincere with their own manifestations. I just see a lot of situations where people hate others and put everything on them, but what about yourself? And for me, I could never say to anyone, what I do not say to myself. As a result, for practical reasons, I need to see my part in everything, because for my future, and all the lives I will touch, this will be of the most value. 

Black and white thinking is not the way of approach, there is always a reconciling point between both sides. But just as a practical need to become the best outcome in myself, I think it wise to apply things to oneself, it's a key to self knowledge, and the lack of self knowledge and self awareness, is really, imo, the cause of many of our problems. This is why, I mentioned, to do so impartially, without any negative emotions towards oneself. In this, regardless of if it is too much or little, it doesn't have ill effect but only gain. But what I am speaking about is probably impossible, it's like asking someone to look at food without smelling it -- but it is natural to look and smell, even to smell before looking most of the time. I think, as such, this is a problem of identification and whole religions have been made about this. so yeah maybe you are right, in that one shouldnt take on too much.

Abuse is a more delicate circumstance, and if looked at only this life, such things like that, is really not the victimizes fault and are unfortunate. There are ideas about karma and all that, which as a mental exercise is interesting consider, however, it just comes off as distasteful and wrong, so I stay clear of that.


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## netfences (Feb 18, 2015)

Fern said:


> Dude, he was turning ME down for sex all the time. I was starved for it. He treated it like it was a privilege for me to get it. It was messed up. Also he was emotionally, physically and psychologically abusive and lied to me on a daily basis, and any of those are reason enough for a relationship to not work.


Right but you chose to stay in this relationship and didn't suspect any problem? The sexual incompatibility is clear from the evidence presented and corroborates my pointing it out along with the fact that you should have known something was amiss. 



Fern said:


> I can see where you're coming from though. But, yeah... I'm never going to meet up with you. Get your head checked.


I see. You stayed in an abusive relationship for far too long mostly because you were oblivious to what would have been a clear warning sign to any other mature adult but probably because you have terrible self esteem too but *I'm the one* who needs my head checked? It's just as well that we don't meet. I'm sure that whatever physical attraction I have for you would have been quickly degraded by the continuous false validation you would likely require to heal. Truth is like high tincture iodine on an open wound but some people prefer the milder mecurichrome even though it takes longer heal it. Enjoy your therapy sessions.
@Wellsy. Not only did you change my meaning with your edit of my post in your multi-thanked reply but you also drew false conclusions from it to buttress a straw man. Congratulations, that is a very woman like way to argue and this exemplifies perfectly my earlier point about how society is manipulated by the distortions of our natural cognitive map.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

netfences said:


> Right but you chose to stay in this relationship and didn't suspect any problem? The sexual incompatibility is clear from the evidence presented and corroborates my pointing it out along with the fact that you should have known something was amiss.
> 
> I see. You stayed in an abusive relationship for far too long mostly because you were oblivious to what would have been a clear warning sign to any other mature adult but probably because you have terrible self esteem too but *I'm the one* who needs my head checked? It's just as well that we don't meet. I'm sure that whatever physical attraction I have for you would have been quickly degraded by the continuous false validation you would likely require to heal. Truth is like high tincture iodine on an open wound but some people prefer the milder mecurichrome even though it takes longer heal it. Enjoy your therapy sessions.


You're a dirty old man ^_^ You seriously think I care what you think or would be interested in meeting somebody old enough to be my father?

Love the victim-blaming by the way. You go, girl. 
I mean, how are you even single?! You're obviously _*so *_emotionally aware and empathetic.


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## TheProphetLaLa (Aug 18, 2014)

Ewww wtf? He was hitting on you/ blaming you for your partners disgusting behavior. Probably looking to be your next abusive boyfriend. It looks like you're already getting better at saying no @Fern! Avoided another stink bomb right out the gate. Like a boss.


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## Fern (Sep 2, 2012)

TheProphetLaLa said:


> Ewww wtf? He was hitting on you/ blaming you for your partners disgusting behavior. Probably looking to be your next abusive boyfriend. It looks like you're already getting better at saying no @_Fern_! Avoided another stink bomb right out the gate. Like a boss.


Haha well honestly, looking back on it, my ex was just a weak, pathetic little man with a tiny dick trying to bring down a powerful, independent woman. I see it happen all the time  It's quite tragic really, the way some men are threatened by a woman secure enough in her femininity to be strong.

But it's never happening to me again.


The crazies really seem to be flock to me and not even in a romantic way necessarily, but like Mr @*Pseudonymity* was saying, I need to examine what about me was attracting this evil and, more importantly, why did I _reciprocate_?!

It's especially odd to me because when I've encountered people like this in the past, I was able to see through it in an instant. I really let myself get caught off guard by a master manipulator, but that's okay  It doesn't make me any less of a person, and I know I'll end up being stronger for the experience.

I have a few ideas, though no concrete theories, and for this kind of matter I think that's alright 


And, hey you're awesome. Thanks, girl.


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