# Nice guy syndrome



## .17485 (Jan 12, 2011)

What is Nice guy syndrome? I'm not too sure, but I think I've noticed some of the traits with myself a few times with the girls I've met. Sometimes I was overly nice to them, treating them like they're a princess. The lack of saying no and eventually being taken advantage of. What is the cause of nice guy syndrome? I know it could be something learned from childhood. Like for example a teacher praising a child for being so good.


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## Amine (Feb 23, 2014)

It's caused by movies and commercials and shit. You see the diamond commercial where the guy gives his beautiful woman a diamond and it programs you to think you also need to do that. You see the movies where the guy is so persistent he finally gets the girl/prize and you think that's how life works, but no, that's just how life works when people are making it up and there are no rules.

Basically the Matrix has you.


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

Nice guy syndrome is basically when a guy feels that he is owed sexual or romantic reciprocation after doing something nice for a girl. When his gestures are interpreted as a sign of friendship or his feelings aren't reciprocated, he bitterly accuses the girl of "friend-zoning" him. I am too lazy to break it down the way I want so I'm just going to quote some stuff.



> Nice guy is a term in Internet discourse describing an adult or teenage male with a fixation on a friendship building over time into a romance, most stereotypically by providing a woman with emotional support when she is having difficulties with another male partner.
> 
> There are, broadly, three schools of thought about Nice Guys™:
> 
> ...


It stems from a fundamental failure in viewing and treating women as people, and not intimacy dispensers. There's a sense of entitlement to our bodies and feelings.



> Some aspects suggest that Nice Guys™ view women in essentialist or sexist ways:
> 
> -Nice guys seem to expect, at some point, sexual "payment" for their kindness and generosity; that is, their niceness is self-interested.
> -The self-interest is deceitful: if the man does not reveal his attraction and expresses willingness to support his friend with her problems, then it makes sense for her to treat his friendship as genuine and take the offered support.
> ...


(source)

The reason we have a term for this is because it's a phenomenal imbalance in mainstream culture. Anecdote:



> Women are told almost constantly—by the media, the government, and the overall attitude of society—that our bodies don’t fucking belong to us. The mythical friendzone is just another way for misogynists to enforce that idea while getting to play the victim.
> 
> It sucks when someone you have feelings for doesn’t share those feelings; it happens to women all the time, too. We hear “I just want to be friends” and “you’re like one of the guys” and “you’re like a sister to me” just as often. But you’ll never hear a woman complain that guys just don’t appreciate a Nice Girl because we’re taught it’s our own fucking fault when we’re rejected—we aren’t pretty enough or thin enough or sexy enough, we weren’t sexual enough or were too sexual, we put out too much or too little or too soon or not soon enough, we didn’t wear our hair the right way or our skirt the right length, we’re “too tomboyish” or “too butch” or “too feminine”, or we’re “not their type”, or we’re otherwise not good enough in various ways to entice the man to grace us with his affection.
> 
> ...


You can be too nice, the same way anyone can be a doormat, perhaps. But once your "niceness" crosses over into misogyny, then you have become a "Nice Guy." The problem with this pattern is that in the grand scheme of things it puts women in a place where they are held responsible for misogynistic attitudes. You have the UCSB shooting, which is not nearly the only incident of a man killing women over not receiving the attention he wanted from them. And some people blame the women in that situation. Many people do.

What do you want us to do, honestly. I'm not even interested in men. But one day a man can feel free to shoot me or assault me, apparently, if I don't reciprocate his feelings or respond the way he wants. It's like I don't matter as a person, or something, like my body and life doesn't even belong to me. So women don't fucking know what to do. It's like the moment you were born with a uterus, you were fucked over.

When I'm nice to a girl, I don't expect fucking anything. I don't fucking do nice things for other people and feel entitled to something afterwards. That puts her in a shitty position. When I become friends with a girl, it's because I actually want her friendship and she means something as a human being. If she doesn't like me that way, I take it like an adult, not an overgrown entitled sexist child. Life's not some game in which I'm entitled to other women's bodies based on how nice I am. Even in a relationship, someone is allowed to say no. My God. It's like... everyone's a _human being_ and we're not all a walking set of forced, unhealthy heterosexual gender expectations.


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

its just when a guy is too nice to a woman and she doesn't want him as her boyfriend (why is a whole new topic which can be due to many reasons, including evolutionary). he is actually a genuinely nice guy. i have never heard of a guy who acts nice and feels entitled to a woman because of his niceness. only genuinely nice guys who don't understand that being nice is not enough to get the girl.


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## luckdragon (Jul 28, 2014)

Being nice or a people-pleaser is not the same as Nice Guy Syndrome. The way my friends and I use the term is just as kittenmogu said. 

Haven't you ever heard men saying something to the extent of, "I don't get it! I'm a really nice guy. I would treat her right, but she won't even give me a chance. Instead she gives those assholes a chance and look at how they treat her! It's not fair!"

So it's one thing to be upset when you get rejected. Who isn't upset? Who has never been rejected? Only people who never get out there. The problem comes when men start focusing so much on that whole "it's not fair" line of thinking. They think that by following a certain script or acting a certain way, they are doing everything right, and how come a woman won't acknowledge that and give them a chance? When Nice Guy Syndrome is in full swing, the man fails to realize that dating and relationships are about compatibility, and the greatest person in the world just might not be right for me. Nice Guy Syndrome tells guys that the world is screwed up because women won't give good guys (like them) a chance, and it's not fair. Each time they get rejected, they see it as evidence of the unfairness of life and women rather than that woman simply not feeling like he is a good fit. There is a big emphasis on the unfairness of it, on how being a decent human entitles them to a relationship with whoever they have been "nice" to, and eventually leads (in some of them) to blatant misogyny (thinking women are "crazy" and "bitches" because the women aren't giving them a chance and only want to date "assholes"). I think a lot of this stems from insecurity and a lack of complexity in thought and a relationship.

So if you feel like you are doing this, it's ok. It's great that you realize it. When you are being nice to a girl, do you feel like that is the agreed upon way to win her affection? Do you feel like you are almost playing by the rules (maybe rom com rules or something like that) and doing what a guy is supposed to do to get a girl? Because if that's the attitude you're going in with, then when she isn't interested, you're going to feel cheated. You did everything right and life still didn't work out for you! There's going to be some anger and it's not really fair to yourself or the girl. Try to see dating and interactions with women as just another interaction with a human being. In a relationship, being a decent human being is a baseline. It's what we should all do to one another. There's nothing special about it. When you are interested in someone else, offer who you are: you're personality, your likes, your dislikes, and the chance to be with you. That is a lot harder because rejection hurts a lot more in that case (feels so personal!), but the thing is that everyone gets rejected! It has no bearing on whether you are lovable or datable or a cool person. It is about being a good fit for that girl. Try to develop a good sense of self esteem and confidence and be true to yourself.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't believe most 'nice guys' feel entitled to sex. I used to fall into the 'nice guy' category for the most part and I just didn't understand why I wasn't being given so much as a chance. It really hurt to feel that I wasn't good enough and it's only natural for our ego to turn that hurt and self-loathing into a projection onto our object of desire to protect ourselves (even though it's a failed strategy the brain doesn't realize it). It's not exactly a good thing but it is natural. 

In short they see themselves as victims the same way that some (certainly not all) women see themselves as victims when a guy just wants to have sex with them. 

They just don't feel in control of their lives and so they either lash out (which is the most common) or they try to change themselves. But changing yourself in regards to women is one of the most challenging thing you can ever do as a man and so many people give up along the way, myself included a few times. And they never get back up onto their path and that's where the bad rep for PUA's come from. Real seducers try their very best not to hurt women and it's something I'm striving for as well. 


-----


I believe the 'nice guy' thing comes mostly from society, from both women and other men. Culture and movies say to bend over backwards to please everybody and to be politically correct. 

Men who are true seducers do try and change men for the better and to man up and take control of your own life and to stop being a victim. Men who are still 'nice guys' will find other like-minded individuals and spiral down until they become too bitter to escape themselves. 

Women even take cues from culture and tell guys just 'be yourself' and be nice and you'll find the right girl. Which is terrible advice, obviously if something isn't working you need to fix it. But it's not really their fault because how are they really supposed to know how to attract women? Attraction is largely an unconscious thing and they don't exactly go around seducing women all of the time so they just don't know what actually works and what doesn't.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

Nice guy syndrome is a term used (passive-aggressively) by the politically correct to shame men for their shortcoming.


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## luckdragon (Jul 28, 2014)

@L yeah, actually, I do just want men to be themselves. That doesn't mean I will end up being compatible with them. You make some good points, though. The problem is that most of us human beings are not mainly concerned with being ourselves/being authentic. We are concerned with being liked in order to get what we want. You hit the nail on the head when you said it's about feeling not good enough. I don't think that self-worth or validation can come from anywhere other than within. And when I meet someone with that self-worth, I can sense it. That is someone I could have a relationship with. Someone who doesn't have that is not an unworthy person, but is not in a place that I can sense I could have a healthy relationship with. 

People are individuals. I don't like people who play too much by "rules" whether they are PUA rules or anything else. I want someone with confidence who complements my lifestyle, values, and personality. There may be others out there who want something else and go for something else. I think it really all comes down to how someone views woman. There are pick-up artists with no respect for women and there are "nice guys" with no respect for women. There are pick-up artists who respect women and are just having fun, and there are "nice guys" who respect women. Maybe it all comes down to that basic attitude, and we have trouble as a society dissecting things at the level of intention instead of at the level of action. 
@Emerald Legend, I do think that sometimes the term is used passive aggressively, but it is sometimes a very real description of a woman's experience with men. There is a huge overlay of cultural misogyny that is real, and as a woman, I deal with it on a regular basis. YES, men and boys do treat women like objects rather than people. When a woman doesn't want to be with a man, even after he has been nice to her, he blames her. He says that she is so messed up. This has happened to me before. Me refusing to approve that attitude and calling it out isn't about being politically correct or passive aggressive. It is about calling to light a societal attitude that is misogynistic and doesn't serve anyone.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

You know what it is..but let's just watch the drama unfold shall we.?


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

luckdragon said:


> @_Emerald Legend_, I do think that sometimes the term is used passive aggressively, but it is sometimes a very real description of a woman's experience with men. There is a huge overlay of cultural misogyny that is real, and as a woman, I deal with it on a regular basis. YES, men and boys do treat women like objects rather than people. When a woman doesn't want to be with a man, even after he has been nice to her, he blames her. He says that she is so messed up. This has happened to me before. Me refusing to approve that attitude and calling it out isn't about being politically correct or passive aggressive. It is about calling to light a societal attitude that is misogynistic and doesn't serve anyone.


You could look at it two ways-
-A man complaining about women being hypocrites and how his due entitlements are not realized. 
Or
-A man legitimately can't get lucky and is pissed off. More about "What's wrong with me" rather than "What's wrong with those women."

of course _most _women would assume the former when talking about NGSyndrome because well..life revolves around them, as does the universe in their vāgīna-centric (Latin of vagina is vagina) model of the universe.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

I think if women don't want a nice guy then they don't deserve one. The same women messing with jerks and a holes...are the same women that find themselves alone with 3 kids when they're 40. People say "oh that's so sad!" for them, usually I take a harsher tone. I'm 24, deeply nice...very respectful...and I don't get lots of play from women. They're all concerned about....something else. Their libido. 

Except I know that when I'm 45 or so, I'm the type to commit. Never would I dream of marrying someone I wasn't walking to our deaths with...or perhaps more grammatically correct, with whom I wasn't walking to our deaths. But women like it light. They don't like the intensity. They don't think like that. They're all about the now. It's the libido. 

It's like 25 year old women are the equivalent of my 15 year old self. Just thinking about sex all the time. Exceptions exist, they always do...but women are so horny in their mid 20s it's almost ridiculous. I'm like "Lady, I past the 'thinking with my genitals' stage back when I was 15...why the hell can't you keep it in your pants?"

I'm a nice guy...not because I respect women in particular...but because I respect everybody in general. In just the same way I've been nice to you....I've been nice to everyone that wasn't you; men, older women, grandpas and kids included. It's not always about sex, my being nice. Actually, it's hardly ever about sex...if I'm being nice. I'm nice as a rule, to everyone. I do like my sex....decidedly, not nice. More primal. However, I can't live with myself if I'm not a nice person. I guess that makes me a victim of the nice guy syndrome. 

Ah well. Worse things I can be. At least I'm not a woman beater. Or a rapist. Or a killer. If my biggest problem is that I'm too nice, then I'm doing something right haha

I'm a nice man and fuck you if you don't like me because of it. 
But I'll continue on my nice guy path because the women I'm interested in value niceties. 

And for my fellow nice guys? There is hope yet! Some, and I'd say the best of women love nice men. 

My point is, just be you...you know?


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

In short, ladies just avoid people like ^.

"I'm a nice man and fuck you if you don't like me because of it"???

Yeah whatever.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

I love a nice guy. A man who opens doors, will paint your nails, and gives back rubs......wow. send all nice guys my way.......maybe I should wear a t shirt.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> I love a nice guy. A man who opens doors, will paint your nails, and gives back rubs......wow. send all nice guys my way.......maybe I should wear a t shirt.


Sure, hit me up babe. I'm willing to do all those except paint your nails since I hate nail polish..have actual physical aversion to it. But do disclose what you have to offer in return. Or is it one way street for negotiating with nice guy syndrome 





Edit: Never mind, it looks like you listen to rap/hip hop. Offer withdrawn.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

Nice guy syndrome is a term, usually reported, rumored, to be started by the male species. It usually starts when the high school nerd, yearns to be getting it on with all the cheerleaders, overlooking the fact that there is a girl nerd, who secretly likes him but is too shy, yet wishes to ask, these two nerds are usually best friends, yet the male nerd thinks he can do better than the nerd crushing on him, which makes the betrayal that more cruel, when he says so many insulting things to her. This cycle of yearning for the female species who are out of the male species league, repeats itself, throughout life. In college, he'll have another woman best friend who will secretly want to go out with him, and he will continue being an idiot, because he think he can do better. He'll try and be a good friend to the hot girls. But they see through his act. Then around his 30s he'll point the finger at all the women in his life, instead of having an introspective moment of reflection. Eventually, Nice guy will get on the internet and make threads about his woes of the ego. Finally that nice guy, will go to his grave, a virgin, bitter, resentful, and no one will come, because he will of alienated everyone that liked him. That is the nice guy syndrome....or one way of looking at it.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> In short, ladies just avoid people like ^.
> 
> "I'm a nice man and fuck you if you don't like me because of it"???
> 
> Yeah whatever.


Do they? Their loss haha. Consider that, I don't really have a need to appease women anymore? My romantic relationships are good as they are...plenty of women having liked me, my "nice disability" besides. 

I really don't get women these days. Everytime I talk to them they're like...evaluating me as a romantic partner. All I can say is...I don't need women as romantic partners anymore. I'd still like to be friends. I have plenty romantic partners. What I'm really looking for...is a friend. Women aren't good friends anymore. They sexualize everything. Hopefully after marriage, women go back to being good friends? I miss the friendly aspects of women. This sex game...fuck that. 

It's the whole "I have a boyfriend" attitude that women display whenever you're talking to them. I'm usually like..."uh, girlie, I don't care...". They think with their vagina...I swear. I can't even find one nice female friend anymore. All I have is girls who want to date or marry me, or women who don't want to talk to me. What the hell ever happened to friendship? We reached marriagable age, and all of a sudden we can't be friends? 

I miss the good old days when I could befriend women without them thinking I was up to something. Maybe marriage gets that back for me. Being a single guy sucks...women either love you, or hate you.


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## Scarab (Jun 14, 2014)

xisnotx said:


> ...women either love you, or hate you.


Or -- I'm just throwing in a thought here -- they think neither about you. There is something in-between those two emotions, you know. 

Revolutionizing, Scarab!
Yes, I know random person!
Well, I certainly learned something new today Scarab!


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

kittenmogu said:


> When I'm nice to a girl, I don't expect fucking anything. I don't fucking do nice things for other people and feel entitled to something afterwards. That puts her in a shitty position. When I become friends with a girl, it's because I actually want her friendship and she means something as a human being. If she doesn't like me that way, I take it like an adult, not an overgrown entitled sexist child. Life's not some game in which I'm entitled to other women's bodies based on how nice I am. Even in a relationship, someone is allowed to say no. My God. It's like... everyone's a _human being_ and we're not all a walking set of forced, unhealthy heterosexual gender expectations.


I'm getting this uncomfortable misandrist vibe from you that's just as unnerving as the misogynists. Both sexes have expectations that they place on people even though those expectations aren't always met and it's okay for people to feel hurt in those situations. I find it awful that someone honestly thinks that men who are nice to women because that's how they were raised to believe women liked to be treated are automatically accused of treating women as objects and being entitled sexist children.


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

Logical Ambivert Feeler said:


> i have never heard of a guy who acts nice and feels entitled to a woman because of his niceness. only genuinely nice guys who don't understand that being nice is not enough to get the girl.


Has everyone forgotten about Elliot Rodger already? Of course, he wasn't a genuinely nice guy, but that's what he claimed to be. He was "the supreme gentleman" who went on a killing spree, killing "sluts", as well as men perceived as being more successful than him at obtaining the "sluts". It's the most extreme version of Nice Guy Syndrome that I can think of. 



Andromeda31 said:


> I'm getting this uncomfortable misandrist vibe from you that's just as unnerving as the misogynists. Both sexes have expectations that they place on people even though those expectations aren't always met and it's okay for people to feel hurt in those situations. I find it awful that someone honestly thinks that men who are nice to women because that's how they were raised to believe women liked to be treated are automatically accused of treating women as objects and being entitled sexist children.


I don't see a single word in her quote that makes her seem like she hates men. Just because she acknowledges that some men treat women like they're objects to be purchased with niceness or gifts, doesn't mean she hates men.



xisnotx said:


> Do they? Their loss haha. Consider that, I don't really have a need to appease women anymore? My romantic relationships are good as they are...plenty of women having liked me, my "nice disability" besides.
> 
> I really don't get women these days. Everytime I talk to them they're like...evaluating me as a romantic partner. All I can say is...I don't need women as romantic partners anymore. I'd still like to be friends. I have plenty romantic partners. What I'm really looking for...is a friend. Women aren't good friends anymore. They sexualize everything. Hopefully after marriage, women go back to being good friends? I miss the friendly aspects of women. This sex game...fuck that.
> 
> ...


Personally, I make it pretty clear that I have a boyfriend early in the friendship because I'm so often accused of leading him on if I don't, just because I was nice to them. Then there's the whole, "men and women can't be just friends" argument that I usually hear from men and not women. It's difficult to tell whether a man actually just wants to be friends or if he has other motives. 
For example, I've had many male friends who were nice and supportive and acting like they had no romantic feelings but dropped me like a hot potato as soon as I got a boyfriend (I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it was disappointing on my end).
My group of friends right now is made of about 14 men and 3 women (and 1 dates girls), and I would not get into a relationship with any of them.


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

TheOwl said:


> Has everyone forgotten about Elliot Rodger already? Of course, he wasn't a genuinely nice guy, but that's what he claimed to be.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see a single word in her quote that makes her seem like she hates men. Just because she acknowledges that some men treat women like they're objects to be purchased with niceness or gifts, doesn't mean she hates men.


Read the whole quote on the first page. You see the same type of us versus them arguments and gross generalizations from both extremes. Of course the message is implicit and the tone that was set speaks for itself.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

Scarab said:


> Or -- I'm just throwing in a thought here -- they think neither about you. There is something in-between those two emotions, you know.



Of course I know there is a grey area between the two black and white extremes. Women just don't display it often. Not to me, at least. The only way I've interacted with women ever since "that age" is that they want to be more than just friends...or they hate me. I'm sure women are the type to do something in the between...

Just not for me. Personally, it doesn't happen like that for me. Women either love me or hate me. All girls seem to either love me hard...or end up "avoiding me", as has been mentioned. hahaha...it's all cool. See if I care? Sex is guaranteed after all, I have no stress from all these females...

Not acting right.. 

i'm more concerned about where i'm going...not what some girl thinks of me. 65 years left in this world, i have. i'll die having made a statement. women won't hold me back. one life to live, and i'm going to live it...so hard. so hard. get in the way of me and my life and die. that's my real attitude. i won't fuck women over, i will fuck men over. life or death, with men...it's death. no qualms about putting my muzzle to your temple and pulling...put me in that position and you will die. no regrets. 

either i'm great or i'm fucking this world over so hard. leave a pile of rubble behind me, either that i'm one of the greatest to live. women can go fuck themselves. just one life. just one wife. fuck the rest.

faced so much hate in this world...it's about time you know my name. i'm here and i'm king. fuck.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

xisnotx said:


> I think if women don't want a nice guy then they don't deserve one. The same women messing with jerks and a holes...are the same women that find themselves alone with 3 kids when they're 40. People say "oh that's so sad!" for them, usually I take a harsher tone. I'm 24, deeply nice...very respectful...and I don't get lots of play from women. They're all concerned about....something else. Their libido.
> 
> Except I know that when I'm 45 or so, I'm the type to commit. Never would I dream of marrying someone I wasn't walking to our deaths with...or perhaps more grammatically correct, with whom I wasn't walking to our deaths. But women like it light. They don't like the intensity. They don't think like that. They're all about the now. It's the libido.
> 
> ...


I've read this about 4 times, but I'm still not sure what you're on about.


edit: is still this crafted satire? if it is... bravo!


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## HellCat (Jan 17, 2013)

xisnotx said:


> Do they? Their loss haha. Consider that, I don't really have a need to appease women anymore? My romantic relationships are good as they are...plenty of women having liked me, my "nice disability" besides.
> 
> I really don't get women these days. Everytime I talk to them they're like...evaluating me as a romantic partner. All I can say is...I don't need women as romantic partners anymore. I'd still like to be friends. I have plenty romantic partners. What I'm really looking for...is a friend. Women aren't good friends anymore. They sexualize everything. Hopefully after marriage, women go back to being good friends? I miss the friendly aspects of women. This sex game...fuck that.
> 
> ...


I call women like that maggots. The ones who think in terms of what you will do for them, energy sucking needy cretins. Who switch men out like disposable plastic dildos with big bank accounts and fancy cars instead of people with individual spirits and things you can learn from their minds. 

leech would be more apropo but maggot sounds more truthful. Feeding on necrotic flesh..

I think they rush into "romantic" thoughts as it is. On the flip side, married guys become off limits as friends if their wives are traditional women. Then you get weird looks for even considering them mates. Like your going to sneak off and fuck them the minute they turn their bitchy side eye towards a shoe display or whatever weird shit traditional gender role obsessed women live for.


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

LeoCat said:


> I call women like that maggots. The ones who think in terms of what you will do for them, energy sucking needy cretins. Who switch men out like disposable plastic dildos with big bank accounts and fancy cars instead of people with individual spirits and things you can learn from their minds.
> 
> leech would be more apropo but maggot sounds more truthful. Feeding on necrotic flesh..
> 
> I think they rush into "romantic" thoughts as it is. On the flip side, married guys become off limits as friends if their wives are traditional women. Then you get weird looks for even considering them mates. Like your going to sneak off and fuck them the minute they turn their bitchy side eye towards a shoe display or whatever weird shit traditional gender role obsessed women live for.


Well that just makes me feel like crap now....

I'm not so much worried for my own dating life as I am for my sister's though. Last guy she dated was quite arrogant and had poor manners. My mother and I weren't too fond of him. Oh well.. hopefully there's plenty of decent men out there that she's actually attracted to. =/


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

TheOwl said:


> Personally, I make it pretty clear that I have a boyfriend early in the friendship because I'm so often accused of leading him on if I don't, just because I was nice to them. Then there's the whole, "men and women can't be just friends" argument that I usually hear from men and not women. It's difficult to tell whether a man actually just wants to be friends or if he has other motives.
> For example, I've had many male friends who were nice and supportive and acting like they had no romantic feelings but dropped me like a hot potato as soon as I got a boyfriend (I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it was disappointing on my end).
> My group of friends right now is made of about 14 men and 3 women (and 1 dates girls), and I would not get into a relationship with any of them.


Well, idk, some of us men...still like you just as friends. We'll still have those urges towards you...but we wouldn't pursue them if they were unreciprocated.

I know I like women a lot...just for who they are. Very nice and kind people, in general. I just wish women in my own life would realize that....

that just because the urge is there, it doesn't mean i don't value you as a person. It's almost the opposite, the only reason the urge is there is because I value you as a person. 

My feelings are...once this stage has passed, the whole "dating and marrying" thing...women and men will go back to being the best of friends. At least I hope so. I don't want the fact that I'm a dude to come between relationships I have, historically, valued more than most.


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## TheOwl (Nov 3, 2010)

Andromeda31 said:


> Read the whole quote on the first page. You see the same type of us versus them arguments and gross generalizations from both extremes. Of course the message is implicit and the tone that was set speaks for itself.


I did. I can see why you would think that, but I think she's describing the basic archetype of men with Nice Guy Syndrome to give a clear representation of what that term means. I think anyone who doesn't fit her description shouldn't be offended - she's not describing all men, just men with Nice Guy Syndrome in its purest form.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

JungleDelRey said:


> I've read this about 4 times, but I'm still not sure what you're on about.
> 
> 
> edit: is still this crafted satire? if it is... bravo!


definitely a form of satire. i'd characterize it as exaggerated truths surrounded by whole lies. it's nothing too serous, what i'm saying. 

i think, what i'm on about....is that, i get so lonely sometimes sleeping by myself. i woke up in the middle of the night today...like twice at least...clutching for my woman. all i had was a stuffed panda bear but at least it helped me back to sleep. at least i have my stuffed toys, i guess. womanless, i guess, it's so sad.

that bear probably hates me, i cling on to it like it was my last hope in the world hahaha

i'm a very expressive writer...women in my life always complain about how i don't show enough emotion. but on here, i'm just a tidal wave of feelings. ignore me


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## luckdragon (Jul 28, 2014)

Emerald Legend said:


> of course _most _women would assume the former when talking about NGSyndrome because well..life revolves around them, as does the universe in their vāgīna-centric (Latin of vagina is vagina) model of the universe.


You _do_ realize that you are attributing a specific attitude to an entire (and a huge and diverse) group of people? And that it is a negative attitude and attribution you are giving to women...that's misogyny. 

So congratulations. You're being a misogynist. Claiming that most women are "vagina-centric" and self-centered is pretty much the definition of misogyny. And it's the furthest you can be from being a "nice" and "decent" guy. And it's the very base of the attitude that leads to Nice Guy Syndrome. 

And this is why so many guys who go around complaining that they can't get girls even though they're "nice." Because they confuse being genuinely nice due to valuing human beings with acting nice so they get what they want. And a lot of us aren't stupid and can read through that.

Sure there are genuinely nice guys who can't get women. There are genuinely great girls who can't find a relationship. There are talented, intelligent individuals who can't find a job. There are people who make good choice after good choice and have bad things happen to them. And I understand the need to vent and to ask the question "Why?" The problem is when men choose to blame women at large and develop a bitterness toward the opposite sex. Are there women who hate men and are self-centered? Sure. There are men who hate women too and are self-centered.

Historically there has been way more beating down of women and a huge power differential in the favor of men. When women try to stand up and change this dynamic, we are often labeled "bitch," "man-hater," etc. When in actuality nothing could be further from the truth for me and the women I know who are feminists. And there are lots of male feminists who have no issues with their own gender and like men and manly things. They also just recognize that women aren't all the same. We are all complex human beings with strengths, faults, weaknesses, lives, feelings, and the same rights as every man.


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## OkWhat (Feb 28, 2014)

Tega1 said:


> What is Nice guy syndrome? I'm not too sure, but I think I've noticed some of the traits with myself a few times with the girls I've met. Sometimes I was overly nice to them, treating them like they're a princess. The lack of saying no and eventually being taken advantage of. What is the cause of nice guy syndrome? I know it could be something learned from childhood. Like for example a teacher praising a child for being so good.


Ugh, this isn't really as complicated as everyone makes it out to be. It can be rationally explained if you just have a basic understanding of human social patterns and psychology. Everyone assumes that it is related to a guy just being nice, but it is not that a guy is nice. It is that a guy is overly nice relative to the women's expected range for that individual. That might sound a little complicated but I am sure everyone can sense when an act of kindness seems forced or when it comes across natural. 

Well, when women pick up on unnatural niceness it is a red flag and then they start asking these questions:

Is he being insecure? Why is he insecure? What is he overcompensating for?

or

This guy is just not being himself. Is a PUA? I don't want someone who is player.

or

I must be out of his league if he has to put up a fake persona to impress me.



So it isn't about being an asshole or a nice guy. It is about acting in a way that she believes you are being honest and she believes that the man you are presenting is the actual man she will get. Showing weakness or a few bad qualities makes her believe she can trust all the good ones she has seen.


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

Emerald Legend said:


> Sure, hit me up babe. I'm willing to do all those except paint your nails since I hate nail polish..have actual physical aversion to it. But do disclose what you have to offer in return. Or is it one way street for negotiating with nice guy syndrome
> 
> 
> Edit: Never mind, it looks like you listen to rap/hip hop. Offer withdrawn.


Wait, who says I listen to rap/hip hop. Also, I guess nice guys don't listen to rap/hip hop???


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## intp_gurl (Mar 8, 2014)

I think women generally like nice guys but its usually age or maturity related. Young women are willing to put up with more jerks or attract more jerks. A young woman may not want to setttle down, so a not so nice guy is good at the time. She may just think of being with a guy who looks good, or whos hot and makes her friends jealous. 


As a woman matures, she looks more for quality than a hot guy.



Similar with men. At one age its quantity, as a man ages quality becomes more important.


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

intp_gurl said:


> Wait, who says I listen to rap/hip hop. Also, I guess nice guys don't listen to rap/hip hop???


Ask for money, get advice. Ask for advice....get money twice----pit bull


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## Emerald Legend (Jul 13, 2010)

luckdragon said:


> You _do_ realize that you are attributing a specific attitude to an entire (and a huge and diverse) group of people? And that it is a negative attitude and attribution you are giving to women...that's misogyny.
> 
> So congratulations. You're being a misogynist. Claiming that most women are "vagina-centric" and self-centered is pretty much the definition of misogyny. And it's the furthest you can be from being a "nice" and "decent" guy. And it's the very base of the attitude that leads to Nice Guy Syndrome.
> 
> ...



You just love your labels, don't you?


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

Andromeda31 said:


> I'm getting this uncomfortable misandrist vibe from you that's just as unnerving as the misogynists. Both sexes have expectations that they place on people even though those expectations aren't always met and it's okay for people to feel hurt in those situations. I find it awful that someone honestly thinks that men who are nice to women because that's how they were raised to believe women liked to be treated are automatically accused of treating women as objects and being entitled sexist children.


I thought it was clear I was referencing Nice Guys. I even bothered to define on what terms a Nice Guy was in the beginning of my post. I'm not sure why you think I'm targeting all men. I'm sorry that me speaking in defense of women being treated like objects makes you feel uncomfortable, but calling me a misandrist is missing my point entirely. If I do sound angry, it's because I am angry. My whole life, I have seen and will see myself and all the other women in my life being subject to misogyny and sexism, both personal and deeply institutionalized. So yes, I am angry and don't exactly have time to make sure I don't sound as nice and palatable as possible, lest I actually sound angry. But if you want to call me a misandrist to feel better about yourself, then by all means feel better. It doesn't make my argument invalid and I have said nothing to threaten you as a person. So if you want to debate, focus on my argument, not subtle attempts at _ad hominem._

You cannot equate misandry with an angry feminist. That would imply that an angry feminist is as bad as a misogynist. Somehow, I am just as bad for speaking up about things and trying to point out ways in which life is shitty when you have a uterus as a misogynist would be for outright making life hard for other people. That seems like an uneven playing field to me.

Seriously though, please tell me where I said anything misandrist. Where I said anything that threatens the safety or wellbeing of men out of gendered hate.


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

kittenmogu said:


> I thought it was clear I was referencing Nice Guys. I even bothered to define on what terms a Nice Guy was in the beginning of my post. I'm not sure why you think I'm targeting all men. I'm sorry that me speaking in defense of women being treated like objects makes you feel uncomfortable, but calling me a misandrist is missing my point entirely. If I do sound angry, it's because I am angry. My whole life, I have seen and will see myself and all the other women in my life being subject to misogyny and sexism, both personal and deeply institutionalized. So yes, I am angry. But if you want to call me a misandrist to feel better, then by all means feel better. It doesn't make my argument invalid.


Your definition was in itself a gross generalization of what a "nice guy" is and it was sexist in it's premise. I get the point you're trying to make put the premise itself is based on a false pretence that you can place a whole group into a category and shame them for having wants and needs then make further presumptions about the reason why they act the way they do. Once you've made all your presumptions you can fit it right into your political ideology and then you proclaim "look women are being objectified".

Be wary of those who use blanket statements to marginalize others.


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

Andromeda31 said:


> Your definition was in itself a gross generalization of what a "nice guy" is and it was sexist in it's premise. I get the point you're trying to make put the premise itself is based on a false pretence that you can place a whole group into a category and shame them for having wants and needs then make further presumptions about the reason why they act the way they do. Once you've made all your presumptions you can fit it right into your political ideology and then you proclaim "look women are being objectified".
> 
> Be wary of those who use blanket statements to marginalize others.


What I am arguing against is *men who feel entitled to women's bodies or to their romantic companionship*, which is a pattern that occurs often enough for it to have its own term. Please, PLEASE explain to me how that's a "want/need" that is okay to defend and how me arguing against that is the same as marginalizing men. I am actually really dying to know what is convincing you that I am shaming something undeserving of being criticized. Really! 

I have not shamed anyone for needing things like companionship, love, reciprocation, or having feelings. You are capable of things like that without feeling entitled to women's bodies. You can be nice and not be a Nice Guy™. If you are kind to women on the basis of treating them like people then you're just a nice person, congratulations. The premise of feeling entitled to women's bodies after being nice to them IS sexist, so here I am, pointing out a sexist premise.


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

kittenmogu said:


> What I am arguing against is *men who feel entitled to women's bodies or to their romantic companionship*, which is a pattern that occurs often enough for it to have its own term. Please, PLEASE explain to me how that's a "want/need" that is okay to defend and how me arguing against hat is the same as marginalizing men. I am actually really dying to know what is convincing you that I am shaming something undeserving of being criticized. Really!
> 
> I have not shamed anyone for needing things like companionship, love, reciprocation, or having feelings. You are capable of things like that without feeling entitled to women's bodies. You can be nice and not be a Nice Guy™. If you are kind to women on the basis of treating them like people then you're just a nice person, congratulations. The premise of feeling entitled to women's bodies after being nice to them IS sexist, so here I am, pointing out a sexist premise.


I'm not arguing about you being against this very specific person you've just described. What I am against is using generalizations to group in people together into a "nice guy syndrome". It's a blanket statement that assumes knowledge about motifs and emotions going through a persons head. Basically the creation of a boogeyman that can be defined how ever one wants.


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

Andromeda31 said:


> I'm not arguing about you being against this very specific person you've just described. What I am against is using generalizations to group in people together into a "nice guy syndrome". It's a blanket statement that assumes knowledge about motifs and emotions going through a persons head. Basically the creation of a boogeyman that can be defined how ever one wants.


I see what you're getting at. The problem is I have not described anyone specific. 

-Do you believe the kind of person I'm describing is uncommon? Perhaps we should consider each other's biases. I am far more likely to see the women's side of things, so I am more likely to see sexist and unequal standards of behavior, even by quantity alone. The same way a racial minority is more likely to see racism, because they actually are the ones who face the majority of its negative consequences, whereas the other side does not have to even acknowledge that racism exists in order to perpetuate it.
-*Do you think I am describing an imaginary problem?* It would be valid to compare the cultivation of a "Nice Guy" label to that of creating a bogeyman if it wasn't something that actually had visible, widespread tangible affects on other people, to the scale that it seems to. I am not inventing this term. There are reasons this term has been created, and whether they are valid or not-- pay attention to WHY this term was created. Do you feel the same way about the term "Nice Guy" as you do with terms like "friend-zone"? If not, then why is it okay for the "friend-zone" exist?
-Do you believe it is an unfair generalization to say that men who display behaviors and make statements indicative of sexist entitlement can fit under one label? What do you propose we do instead, to make lives fairer for both men and women?


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## Andromeda31 (Jul 21, 2014)

kittenmogu said:


> I see what you're getting at. The problem is I have not described anyone specific.
> 
> -Do you believe the kind of person I'm describing is uncommon? Perhaps we should consider each other's biases. I am far more likely to see the women's side of things, so I am more likely to see sexist and unequal standards of behavior, even by quantity alone. The same way a racial minority is more likely to see racism, because they actually are the ones who face the majority of its negative consequences, whereas the other side does not have to even acknowledge that racism exists in order to perpetuate it.
> -*Do you think I am describing an imaginary problem?* It would be valid to compare the cultivation of a "Nice Guy" label to that of creating a bogeyman if it wasn't something that actually had visible, widespread tangible affects on other people, to the scale that it seems to. I am not inventing this term. There are reasons this term has been created, and whether they are valid or not-- pay attention to WHY this term was created. Do you feel the same way about the term "Nice Guy" as you do with terms like "friend-zone"? If not, then why is it okay for the "friend-zone" exist?
> -Do you believe it is an unfair generalization to say that men who display behaviors and make statements indicative of sexist entitlement can fit under one label? What do you propose we do instead, to make lives fairer for both men and women?


There's plenty of people who display similar traits so I'm sure they do exist, but it's very difficult to distinguish the intentions and feelings of people and that's the problem I have with these terms. It's like people who call guys "creeps" and girls "sluts". These two terms are used against people yet if we asked the people who used these words they would barely be able to define them in a measurable way. Behaviours are easy to quantify but the motif is not.

From having long conversations with my friend who studies gender studies and who identifies as a feminist I agree that our heuristics/ models of the world are very different and we see the same thing, but give it a different meaning. 

I do think some people have the traits you described, but believe there's even more who are put in this classification do to misinterpretations of motif/behaviour. It's more like a pattern that emerges, but if our heuristic is wrong we'll get to the wrong conclusion. Point being there are too many variables to be able to classify those who may show these traits. 

The term "nice guy" is too ambiguous for me to attach any real meaning to them, but the word friend-zone is specific and describes a motive so no I have no problem with its use.

*"Do you believe it is an unfair generalization to say that men who display behaviors and make statements indicative of sexist entitlement can fit under one label?"* Yes that's where I've been trying to get at. I'm against labels that can be used to mean what ever the person wants. We see a lot of these words used by politicians in order to discredit their opponents. 

The biggest way to improve relations between the sexes isn't from an ideological standpoint, but from a point of a genuine desire to understand the point of view of the other gender without judgement.


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## kittenmogu (Jun 19, 2014)

Andromeda31 said:


> There's plenty of people who display similar traits so I'm sure they do exist, but it's very difficult to distinguish the intentions and feelings of people and that's the problem I have with these terms. It's like people who call guys "creeps" and girls "sluts". These two terms are used against people yet if we asked the people who used these words they would barely be able to define them in a measurable way. Behaviours are easy to quantify but the motif is not.
> 
> From having long conversations with my friend who studies gender studies and who identifies as a feminist I agree that our heuristics/ models of the world are very different and we see the same thing, but give it a different meaning.
> 
> ...


I will accept the possibility that the generalization can result in unfair misinterpretation on an individual basis. That is inevitable with any generalization. The purpose of the label, which is to call out problematic behavior, motives, and problems, does not deny that the use of that label can result in that problem. I still support the label on the ideological basis that it stands for and that problematic, widespread things need to be given names in order to achieve visibility.

You have no problem with the term friend-zone based on it being clear-cut, but do you have a problem with it based on what it means and implies about relationships between men and women? I notice that you have a focus on the *usage of words rather than what they mean*. I will attribute that to Ti/Fi differences, but I would like to clarify as to if your stance on the term friend-zone denotes your acceptance of what it means-- to devalue friendships with women and implying a heavily negative connotation with being seen as a friend instead of a romantic/sexual interest.

I appreciate the idealism of your final statement and I would agree if it not were that women are already made responsible for the viewpoints of men. We're put in positions more often than not where we are held responsible for the way we are treated. Realistically this is not a world where most men are required to understand the viewpoint of women, and by creating a term like Nice Guy, we can give name to it. 

Do you have the same problem with a term like "homophobic"? That to solve the inequalities against non-heterosexuals, one must be willing to look into the unique viewpoints of people who are prejudiced against gays and avoid using terms to describe general discrimination? That gays are responsible for genuinely understanding, without judgment, the views of people that don't see them as equals? Perhaps not an equal comparison, but look beyond the technicalities of the term to what I'm saying about the purpose of the words- to give name to injustices.


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## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> In a nutshell, I think it's just caused by putting the "pussy on the pedestal."
> 
> You wind up with guys who would otherwise have clear boundaries and act like a normal individual falling over themselves to "win over" a girl because they're thinking that it means more than what it is.
> .


Sounds a lot like apologizing for people's behaviour to me. People know when they're being inappropriate. Putting "pussy on a pedestal" (ugh) is another symptom of nice guy syndrome. Hey, guess what, just treat women like humans. It's not that difficult.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

isingthebodyelectric said:


> Sounds a lot like apologizing for people's behaviour to me. People know when they're being inappropriate. Putting "pussy on a pedestal" (ugh) is another symptom of nice guy syndrome. Hey, guess what, just treat women like humans. It's not that difficult.


Sounds a lot like you just want to complain about peoples' behavior. 

There's a difference between "apologizing for" and "understanding." And no, people often don't know when they're acting inappropriately - why in the hell would they? You think people just wake up and say, "Man, I'm going to be as much of a dick today as I can. Ten new enemies minimum and I'm going for level 12 bitterness today. Level 11 was a bitch, but I'm going to get to 12 sooner or later."

Saying that "pussy on a pedestal" is a symptom of "nice guy syndrome" is like saying that cancer is a symptom of being sick and dying. It's backwards and doesn't explain anything about what "nice guy syndrome" actually is.

If you want to grind your axe, be my guest, but don't act like you're adding anything to the discussion.


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## luckdragon (Jul 28, 2014)

marked174 said:


> I think that was a pretty insightful analysis, but I have a question. Why is there a hypocritical difference in preference regarding these two forced extremes?
> 
> In other words, if society forces two types of women (vigin/whore) and two types of men (jerk, softy) why do women (socialized) contradict themselves when (socialized) men do not? Women who are conditioned to think of men in this binary often say that they want the softy, but only respond to the jerk; while on the other hand, men who are similarly conditioned do not do this, they don't claim that they don't want the whore or the virgin.
> 
> What causes this differential?


I do get what you are saying here. I would venture to say that there is a layer of societal expectations on what sort of man women are expected to want. "Good" girls are not supposed to want "bad" boys. Guys have some added layer of privilege in that respect; just because they want the "bad" girl doesn't really have a negative influence on how they are perceived. And if/when they decide to settle down and find someone to really commit to, their past has no influence on their perceived desirability. Whereas with girls, it is much harder to go from the "bad" girl category to a "good" girl category. And someone who went out with tons of "jerks" in the past and admitted to wanting that is perceived as being "bad." Even if the guy is not a jerk--if he is just stereotypically manly--some girls feel the pressure to not need that. They feel they _should_ want a guy based only on character. 

Also, no one truly wants to be treated badly. So sometimes girls who say they are looking for "a nice guy" don't mean they are looking for any one stereotype or archetype. They just want someone to treat them like a human being. Don't we all want that? The problem is that a lot of us (men and women) don't want an archetype or a stereotype. We want a real, whole, complete person. And when we try to describe what we want, our language falls short and often draws upon cultural archetypes and stereotypes. It's so complicated to think about. 

In reality I don't think that any person falls strictly into one of these four categories. We are all complex and these categories (jerk/nice guy and whore/virgin) are just archetypes. Hopefully most of us see beyond broad categorizations and stereotypes and look at people as complex individuals. And many of us fall more for well-rounded, complex individuals. People who have more complex personalities and don't just play into one role or the other. A summary of a person is not that person. People in real life and in real interactions are so much more than any category or syndrome can explain.

And that brings up a whole other point. There are a lot of women who don't fall for either the "jerk" archetype or the "good guy" archetype, because we want people who are authentic. That's my biggest point of attraction: someone willing to deviate from societal expectations, but not just in order to deviate from expectations--to be genuine. I have met many men who have that same desire, as well. I think we all crave to be with real people, real human beings, not people trying desperately to put on a show.


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## alfred.greene (Jul 30, 2014)

I think it often can stem from being naive, and wanting to help others in a way unhealthy to you. 


I feel like people took and derailed your thread my friend, and I think this turned into hate about the "Nice guy". I hope I am wrong and your hearing what you need to, and I wish people were more considerate of you and your feelings, and your humanity. 

Being a "nice guy" who gets swept into sexism of being "male" I get those looks like "Hey if I just look at him cutely he will want me, or if I just do something slutty", and I also get that comparison to other guys who are jerks deep inside just because I am nice. I get magicly labeled a "manipulator" because women freak out when I say something wrong >.> 

I admit women have the worse end of the stick, but I wish this wasn't about our gentials. I wish this could be about being human, and trying to look past our skin, and look at the deeper psychological and spiritual aspects this site is supposed to symbolize. 

From my perspective "Nice Guy" Syndrome is as much about "friend zoning" and other pointless crap as it is being in a culture that thinks you have to view women as objects. If you don't its like something is wrong with you, and when you get upset that women generalize this its wrong. It's like your in the middle of this war between "women's rights" and "Males". 


How does one prevail in war? Both sides have already lost.
~Logan Kodysz


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## Elvish Lives (Nov 29, 2013)

luckdragon said:


> If you want to argue that the feminist perspective on this situation is incorrect, you must first learn the feminist perspective...


Oh, I'm well aware of the "feminist perspective," which essentially holds that men are the root of most (read: all) evil in the world. This is why I recoil from the very idea of feminism, because the movement has transitioned from one focused on gaining equal rights for women to one focused on blaming men for the perceived ills of womanhood. Like the so-called mens rights activists, it's more or less pity-party activism based on the notion of gender unfairness.




luckdragon said:


> By also isolating a "female" point of view as something cohesive--hence saying that "female" is a certain identity that you purport to know so well...you are propagating the very gender stereotypes that you have said you hate.


No, I'm not at propagating any gender stereotypes at all. We all use general terms in these discussions because we couldn't have them otherwise. If we had to qualify every statement, we'd all be trading 10,000-word manifestos like a bunch of attorneys rather than having informal discussions.




luckdragon said:


> How is the commodification of sex and women a straw man?


Because no one here is even insinuating that female companionship and sexuality are fungible resources. The vast majority of guys don't view women with such inhuman detachment, so you're arguing against an attitude that is only pervasive among the small subset of players who are the antithesis of the "nice guys" being discussed in this thread.




luckdragon said:


> If I think that a man owes me commitment and a relationship, then when he doesn't want that, I will feel that he has denied me something that I need and has treated me in a way he doesn't have a right to.


Women feel this way and complain about it all the time. Just ask most women who've been in a relationship for more than five years without receiving a marriage proposal.




luckdragon said:


> Nice Guy Syndrome occurs when men do this to women. They act nice as a means of getting something, and when they don't get it, they feel cheated and angered. They act as if we had no right to deny them because they are decent human beings and deserved a relationship with us.


Who actually feels this way? Again, I think you're attacking enemies that don't really exist. If guys get mad at women for denying them, it's because they feel that they were led on, something women often feel about men as well. I've never heard any guy I've ever known complain that some girl had denied him the sex he was "owed." Yes, some guys try to initiate relationships in the wrong way, but this niceness for sex _quid pro quo_ is a figment of women's imaginations.




luckdragon said:


> Your perception that men have it somehow harder than women just seems incorrect and misguided to me.


You're misquoting me. What I said was that men have it harder _in the early stages of dating_ because we have to do all the up-front leg work. We initiate contact, we initiate flirting, we initiate conversation, we initiate dating, and we initiate sex. These are all accepted as being the man's role in the relationship. What's the woman's role? Look good and accept his advances (or not). That's it. So yes, women have it much easier in dating given the fact that you are able to sit back and play the role of critic of every guy who attempts to make contact with you. Yes, I know looking good is a burden, but it's small potatoes compared to what we have to endure.




luckdragon said:


> If nobody asks a woman out, it's "her fault." She needs to lose weight, dress better, be more outgoing but not too outgoing because she doesn't need to be manly.


No, when men don't ask a particular woman out it's usually considered a sign of the decline of men. We're told to "grow a pair," "man up," and "step up to the plate." The onus rests squarely on us to make relationships happen. The only time women are told to change their behaviors is when they are egregiously off the rails, i.e. they don't even try to look good, they act hostilely, or they're seriously overweight. If a girl is even moderately attractive, her friends and family will typically close ranks around her to offer consolation and sympathy if she's remained single for a long period of time. When guys are perpetually dateless, they're typically gently mocked and ridiculed by those around them for not trying hard enough or for lacking the social skills to make it happen.

There's no question that women face challenges, but their issues arise later on in relationships. Particularly, motherhood is the real travail that women face in relationships and life. But the early phases of dating are easier (and cheaper!) for women than it is for men, period.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

marked174 said:


> I think that was a pretty insightful analysis, but I have a question. Why is there a hypocritical difference in preference regarding these two forced extremes?
> 
> In other words, if society forces two types of women (vigin/whore) and two types of men (jerk, softy) why do women (socialized) contradict themselves when (socialized) men do not? Women who are conditioned to think of men in this binary often say that they want the softy, but only respond to the jerk; while on the other hand, men who are similarly conditioned do not do this, they don't claim that they don't want the whore or the virgin.
> 
> What causes this differential?


Do you mean men don’t openly claim by voicing a claim? 
Or could it be, what you're asking has to do with biological differences?


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Here is another thought I've been thinking for quite a while now...

If both females and males would/could identify with both their masculine and feminine sides, quite a lot of the gender roles/wars would die down or not exist.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Dalien said:


> Here is another thought I've been thinking for quite a while now...
> 
> If both females and males would/could identify with both their masculine and feminine sides, quite a lot of the gender roles/wars would die down or not exist.


People's beliefs are the flaw where they are met with people who are outside the social commentary on gender identity and gender roles. I tend to believe that people's behaviour and identity is biological other wise we wouldn't have trans people, the diversity of gender identity and gender roles is only in conflict with people who wish to enforce a limited view of what's acceptable.
We're only exposed to a story of how things apparently should be so when met with a reality of people deviating from those norms we either neglect them or out right punish them.
Though I do think there are traits that are inherently human that could be qualified as masculine and feminine and its harmful when we limit peoples expression of themselves to fit only within these rigid boxes.

But just thinking that some people may not necessarily identify with being masculine/feminine and it would seem such things come naturally to people in their biology but are certainly influenced by culture which shames them for being themselves.

I think ive just rambled now XD


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Elvish Lives said:


> You're misquoting me. What I said was that men have it harder _in the early stages of dating_ because we have to do all the up-front leg work. We initiate contact, we initiate flirting, we initiate conversation, we initiate dating, and we initiate sex. These are all accepted as being the man's role in the relationship. What's the woman's role? Look good and accept his advances (or not). That's it.


That's not the way I experience it.

Well, perhaps the time when I assumed that was my role, and I was too self-absorbed to even notice a girl was flirting with me.

Which when you think of it is actually very convenient information, if you hate being rejected.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

the "syndrome" can be gotten rid of by focusing more on oneself than on trying to get into a relationship--or a "relationship"--with another person. 


find what you like and then start doing it. everything else falls into place, eventually... and people can tell when you're living for yourself, or when you're living/looking for the embodiment of what you believe will make you whole/happy. the first is attractive, it implies worth because you (seem to) already feel confident in "not needing" something else--you're okay how you are, and aren't looking to rely upon another person for your own self-esteem. the second, is the opposite of the first basically; it implies your ego needs that other person in order for you to be happy, or to feel good about life, or to feel good about yourself. 

people will only see the worth that you broadcast, and you'll only broadcast what you believe--this may change their perception of your own worth, because you cannot even see it to begin with, and so can not accurately show it. there's a thousand ways to say this, but you (general) really have to be okay with pursuing life regardless of advances/lack of; that's attractive.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

Dalien said:


> Do you mean men don’t openly claim by voicing a claim?
> Or could it be, what you're asking has to do with biological differences?


In our modern society, women often claim that they want nice guys, but when they show up they ignore them and instead turn towards the jerks. It's common enough to be identified as a trend.

However, men in our society do not often claim that they want a "slutty" woman while only chasing after virgins; neither do they in mass claim to want virgins and only chase after "sluts" (for a lack of a better term). For the most part, men take what they can get, and honestly prefer that she be pretty.

I don't think this difference is biological, I think it is culturally constructed. For whatever reason, I believe women are taught to communicate a message that is different from the truth regarding their preferences, or they have been conditioned to not consider what they actual want from others. Either way, it's not a phenomena that has been similarly subjected to the males.


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## luckdragon (Jul 28, 2014)

@Elvish Lives I disagree with you on many points, but I feel I've made my case pretty well and have laid out the reasons for it. Many of your statements reflect a belief that you know women's experiences better than we know our own, and reflect a lot of generalizations and assumptions I am uncomfortable with. But I have touched on these in previous posts, and I think you have made your perspective clear in other posts. So at this point continuing the conversation on this topic seems like it's going to get circular. 

My statements stand and the reasons for them are there to be read. We will just have to disagree.


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## Elvish Lives (Nov 29, 2013)

luckdragon said:


> @Elvish Lives I disagree with you on many points, but I feel I've made my case pretty well and have laid out the reasons for it. Many of your statements reflect a belief that you know women's experiences better than we know our own, and reflect a lot of generalizations and assumptions I am uncomfortable with. But I have touched on these in previous posts, and I think you have made your perspective clear in other posts. So at this point continuing the conversation on this topic seems like it's going to get circular.
> 
> My statements stand and the reasons for them are there to be read. We will just have to disagree.


I came to the same conclusion myself. Our views about relationships diverge pretty strongly along gender lines, which is to be expected given our inherent biases.

I do want to re-emphasize one point that I made in an earlier posting. Nice guys, passive guys...whatever you want to call them, aren't prone to these overwhelming feelings of misogyny ascribed to them by so many women. How the concept of misogyny (defined as the hatred of women) even entered this discussion is beyond me. Being socially inept does not make a guy a misogynist, it makes him lonely. Do some guys get angry at their social failures and lash out at women? Sure, but women do likewise, though they usually do so away from the scrutiny and unfiltered vitriol of the internet. But most guys don't lash out at women, they quietly wonder why it is that they continually fail to start relationships even when other guys around them who are less successful/attractive/gentlemanly have greater success with women. No misogyny present there.

Nice guys are usually about the last group to experience anything like misogynistic feelings towards women. They tend more to idealize women more so than anything. The women who cry misogyny over these guys usually do so because they feel that they're being treated as objects of attainment rather than people. This is a misguided fear. Men don't want lifelike blowup girlfriends, we want women. So please tone down the misogyny talk.


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## hazell (Apr 24, 2014)

The "nice guy" label equates passivity with entitlement, the term has no real meaning but is just a combination of "too-passive", "Lets women walk all over them", "feels entitled to women", "puts pussy on a pedestal". Certainly that is what one would get from this thread or looking up any definition. 

In the past "nice guy" just meant someone who is "too nice" and is probably passive and unsuccessful with women i.e "nice guys finish last". The association now is that this same type of person feels entitled to women, and is evil. I don't see any particular reason why passive guys would be any more prone to feeling entitled to women than an aggressive alpha male type of guy.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

I admit to having had a *Nice Guy syndrome* in the past. It's probably the reason I was drawn to the series 13 Reasons Why which features a protagonist who has the same thing.









<i>13 Reasons Why</i>'s Clay Jensen Is a Toxic 'Nice Guy'


Glamorizing his entitled behavior is dangerous.




www.elle.com





But before you scrutinize me I never even knew this was a thing that can happen. I always thought being nice is the way to go.
But being too nice and actually expecting things in return is actually _not_ being nice, it's actually being _calculated_.

Good to know. I should've known sooner.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Tega1 said:


> What is Nice guy syndrome? I'm not too sure, but I think I've noticed some of the traits with myself a few times with the girls I've met. Sometimes I was overly nice to them, treating them like they're a princess. The lack of saying no and eventually being taken advantage of. What is the cause of nice guy syndrome? I know it could be something learned from childhood. Like for example a teacher praising a child for being so good.


The cause is right there in your message - lack of saying no, treating them like they're a princess. You got to be able to say no and to treat them like an equal. That doesn't mean not being respectful. But it means being honest about the things you like and dislike. If you think something is ridiculous, point it out, you can even point it out in a respectful way, disagreement is not bad, being disrespectful or offensive is bad.

In fact, if there is no disagreement it means one of 2 things: either only one of them is thinking, or the other one doesn't get what they want. In this case, the other one is you. You can disagree respectfully. Conflicts and arguments are bad, contradicition is not bad. You can contradict each other on various issue, in fact, this is part of what can make a relationship more fun. When you contradict people, it doesn't necessarly mean you have a conflict or argument. You are treating each other on the same ground, as equals, so just as they can have opinions, you can have opinions.

You can even contradict her in a joke spirit such as making fun of her, messing with her. I think it's okay to make fun of each other as long as the humour is respectful. Making fun of things that are clearly false, like joking that she's a bad cook when he clearly enjoys eating what she cooked. Downplaying her but in a respectful way. Making fun of things that they don't care about, if they can't run and don't care about being a good runner you can make fun of that. Making fun of things that are momentarily, if they have something on their face that in the moment makes them look bad, call it out. These are the kind of jokes that aren't offensive, on the other hand if you would make fun of something: clearly true, that they care about and that is permanent, that would be easily offensive to almost anyone. If you are close enough to afford these kinds of jokes with each other I see no issue with it, as long as you is laughing with her not of her and are not doing it in public, for that would be called humiliation, embarassing people in front of others.

Teasing has to be used very carefully, basically you point something out about a person and you make fun of it. You have to be very careful about teasing people because it can easily come off as offensive. The key here is to have good intentions behind the joke. If you say something with the intentions to offend someone they will be offended. You also want to make sure you built a certain level of comfort with the person before making a joke like this.

The purpose is to entertain the other person, not make them feel bad. There is a slight superiority in teasing. Or implication of lack of importance for them. Teasing is faked arrogance. Don't be arrogant, but you can fake it with teasing. You can be a bit insistent in teasing as long as the insisting is playful and the other person also laughs. You can make stereotypes or point out the obvious. Optionally, you can tease people indirectly, be subtle, let the conclusion be formed, but it's usually on the face. Teasing can take the form of exaggerations and such, take things to their extreme conclusion, so extreme it's obvious it's wrong. Make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior. You can build on what they said to make fun of them. Even if you have a flaw and they don't, you can still make fun of them, if you are fat and they are skinny, you can turn the tables and make fun of them for being too skinny.

Of course, you don't only need to tease her, you can also give her honest compliments about her or about something she has. Compliments like it's not a big deal. For example: _"very nice earbuds, where you do you have them from?"_. Or expressing that you believe in her and know that she can make it.


Amine said:


> It's caused by movies and commercials and shit. You see the diamond commercial where the guy gives his beautiful woman a diamond and it programs you to think you also need to do that. You see the movies where the guy is so persistent he finally gets the girl/prize and you think that's how life works, but no, that's just how life works when people are making it up and there are no rules.


Yep, never trust ads. The ads just want to sell you a product, keep that in mind. Simply put: giving her expensive gifts and expecting her to love you for it, doesn't work. You are merely a provider, not a lover. In fact, giving her a cheap gift that is way more particular and specific to her, such as a personalized object, that touches her in her core, for example something she genuinely needs or something that describes part of who she is, such as a keychain with her job or something she care about, can be much more romantic, because it's much more sentimental.



kittenmogu said:


> Nice guy syndrome is basically when a guy feels that he is owed sexual or romantic reciprocation after doing something nice for a girl. When his gestures are interpreted as a sign of friendship or his feelings aren't reciprocated, he bitterly accuses the girl of "friend-zoning" him. I am too lazy to break it down the way I want so I'm just going to quote some stuff. It stems from a fundamental failure in viewing and treating women as people, and not intimacy dispensers. There's a sense of entitlement to our bodies and feelings.
> 
> You can be too nice, the same way anyone can be a doormat, perhaps. But once your "niceness" crosses over into misogyny, then you have become a "Nice Guy".When I'm nice to a girl, I don't expect fucking anything. I don't fucking do nice things for other people and feel entitled to something afterwards. That puts her in a shitty position. When I become friends with a girl, it's because I actually want her friendship and she means something as a human being. If she doesn't like me that way, I take it like an adult, not an overgrown entitled sexist child. Life's not some game in which I'm entitled to other women's bodies based on how nice I am. Even in a relationship, someone is allowed to say no. My God. It's like... everyone's a _human being_ and we're not all a walking set of forced, unhealthy heterosexual gender expectations.


Well said, there is a sense of bitterness and frustration in those "Nice Guy" TM. They are not nice, they don't help because they genuinely want to help. They help with a goal, and they get frustrated when they don't get what they want. But all means, help a woman, but help her because it's a nice thing to do, not because you expect something in return.

If you want something in return, you have to be hot as well, you have to be a viable romantic partner as well. You can be hot and tender. To avoid the friendzone, you need to be their friend but also something attractive so that they would want to be next to you meaning together with you, to be something hot.

I understand that a guy has to be assertive, fun and assured to be attractive. Because niceness alone won't cut it. Yes, you may be a nice guy, but if you go in a random room, out of 50 people there are at least 20 nice people and that's a conservative estimate. You're not special for being nice, sure, being nice is good, but you have to have more things going on for you than just being nice if you want to be attractive. Such as being a man who is essentially caring of them but also fun to be around. And who is a good or at least decent member of society, not getting to fights like a brute and having a decent career.

This _"hot"_ is not limited to looks, naturally, looks matter. But there are other factors that can make you more or less attractive to a woman. You got to be her friend, but also, you got to be a good catch. Character is important for a woman, what is on the inside. This is why it's a bit tricky for women, they have to know the man a bit. Where as men on the other hand can judge looks almost instantly. This is why status is important for women, not because they all want money, but because status is a kind of proxy signal for character, what's on the inside. Women are looking for a kind of trip advisor dating, cause they need validation from some other source.

But other qualities matter as well: being daring as in having courage to go and ask and to take initiative, knowing how to impose yourself as in having courage to stand up for yourself when wronged, the confidence as in looking like you know what you're doing. But also the opposite: admitting when you have doubts, doubts are good, when you have doubts, the best way to start is to admit that you don't know and start from there.

Don't have a mean-spirited, bitter, cruel side like the "Nice Guy" TM. Have common sense and decency. Don't feel entitled to favor for her just because you're being nice to her and are helping her. Don't be immoral and be soft-spoken and have care for the other gender.

Even when it comes to making fun of them, you should do in an essentially playful way of saying _"you're lower than me"_ without really meaning it and only do it with people you can afford teasing with. Stay away from things that a person is insecure about, something that would make them anxious. Instead, tease them about something that they don't care about or it's momentarily. The key here is to have good intentions behind the joke, the intention to entertain the other person and to not be offensive, not in a mean-spirited, bitter, cruel side with the intention of being hurtful. There are a few unspoken rules when it comes to teasing: it has to be done between a significant other or close friend, it has to be clearly light-hearted and good-natured, you can tease the other person back if you want, it's not about anything too personal or too offensive, it's not aimed at one of your insecurities, it's in a one-on-one situation, not in front of a group. Teasing in its most pure form is positive, friendly and harmless. The problem is with crossing the line, because you can never know when you have crossed the line until after you've crossed it. Problem is where you draw this line and where others draw this line can be very different. Not everyone takes teasing as well as you do.

As said above, you got to be able to say no and to treat them like an equal. Treating her like a princess probably won't make for a fun conversation, you are on the same ground, you have the same level of rights, not only in society but as a dating couple, it's okay to tell her that you can't see her around that time or that you don't like a certain thing. That doesn't mean not being respectful. But it means being honest about the things you like and dislike. You can disagree respectfully. Conflicts and arguments are bad, contradicition is not bad. You can even contradict her in a teasing way.

When you are being sarcastic or make fun of someone: smile before and don't overdo it. Don't take things too seriously and see what comes to mind, call out the obvious when it happens. Make jokes about the situation you are in. Everything is playful, fun, games. Non-serious yet caring discussions. _"I'm always right/even a broken clock shows the right time 2 times a day"_ or _"ok, you are so wrong about that"_ or _"how could you listen to that?"_ or _"I was right everytime/what would be those other times?"_. There are many ways to keep the conversation fun.

You don't need to change yourself for nobody. But being yourself doesn't mean you can't also imporve yourself. Be yourself but also improve yourself. Work on yourself, if you want to also have something attractive so that they would want to be next to you meaning together with you.



Logical Ambivert Feeler said:


> its just when a guy is too nice to a woman and she doesn't want him as her boyfriend (why is a whole new topic which can be due to many reasons, including evolutionary). he is actually a genuinely nice guy. i have never heard of a guy who acts nice and feels entitled to a woman because of his niceness. only genuinely nice guys who don't understand that being nice is not enough to get the girl.


Well, this goes to show that there are different definitions for nice guy. Someone considers nice guys the people who feel entitled to a woman simply because they are nice to her. As mentioned above, being nice is good but not enough. Not being nice is bad. And there are others who consider nice guy as genuinely nice but just too nice. As mentioned above, when you like someone it doesn't mean you have to always agree with them.

You also need to have some personal pride as well, a backbone, to not end up a press to wipe on foot and end up getting used by women, or even jokingly stand up for yourself when it comes to small things like when you're playing a game, you need to have some dignity as well. But not so much dignity that you become too rigid and won't help them with anything, won't listen or consult anyone or won't be willing to talk except about the subjects you like. Some level of 20% pride and 80% not pride would be good enough. You need to have some minimum amount of pride but not be a prideful person in general, be a flexible person most of the time, to not have so much pride that you end up this inflexible and boastful and arrogant person. You need to show that you have some pride and dignity within yourself.

Don't get me wrong, having some pride and standing up for yourself doesn't mean you have to be this aggressive brute always willing for a fight, it's not that black and white. Don't insult anyone, don't bother anyone, don't talk stupid of anyone, keep your character. Prefer to avoid conflict, don't bother anyone. Not because you can't stand up for you, but because it's better to avoid it. It's better to not have bad business, if you don't have bad business why are you jumping for a fight?

However, I think the real issue with nice guy, that applies to both Nice Guys TM and real nice guys, because at the end of the day the difference between them is just the intention, the behavior is the same, is that they are kind of platonic. Being a nice guy is essentially _"don't be mean, be polite and respectful"_, which isn't much to go on in terms of attraction, it's like saying your quality that makes you a great cyclist is that you have a bike, sure, it's great that you're a nice guy but you need to have something to make you stand out, something to make you more attractive than just for existing. You don't need to be a fighter, you don't need to be a warrior, you can be fundamentally a kind person, but you should also have other qualities such as: looks, being caring, being fun, being a decent member of society, having a decent career and looking at her like a human being. The last one will keep you from being platonic, don't go for pick-up lines or other superficial stuff that seem cringe, have a decent approach, approach her as an individual, as a separate person you need to interact with while showing care and interest, rather than an ATM or Soda Machine where you insert the pick-up line and the ressult is the girl. That's essentially objectifiyng a woman emotionally.

In your romantic approach, be the treat her with care like she is another human being, an individual person with thoughts and desires, a separate person you need to interact with while showing care and interest, type of nice, not the platonic _"I'm just not mean"_ kind of nice. Women love to be treated well, to be treated with care and romance by a man that is romantically interested in them. The thing is: (a) that man has to make it clear that he is romantically interested in them, if he doesn't, the friendzone is no surprise but rather the default road. (b) while being caring and romantic towards them is a quality in itself, you need to have other qualities to back yourself up with, beside just be nice as in not mean, if you want them to be romantically interested in you as well.

It's a great thing to be a nice person, as in not be a mean person, but nobody owes you anything for being a nice person. It's a basic decency and courtesy act all people do to get along in society, you are not owed or earn entitlement points for being nice.


L said:


> I don't believe most 'nice guys' feel entitled to sex. I used to fall into the 'nice guy' category for the most part and I just didn't understand why I wasn't being given so much as a chance. It really hurt to feel that I wasn't good enough and it's only natural for our ego to turn that hurt and self-loathing into a projection onto our object of desire to protect ourselves (even though it's a failed strategy the brain doesn't realize it). It's not exactly a good thing but it is natural.
> 
> In short they see themselves as victims the same way that some (certainly not all) women see themselves as victims when a guy just wants to have sex with them.
> 
> ...


I think the original post has a point about treating them like they're a princess. Instead, you should able to say no and to treat her like an equal. You should be able to be on the same ground with her, you two are equals and treat each other like equals, what one can afford the other should be able to afford as well. And in fact, contradiction can make a relationship more fun. Otherwise it leads to those toxic relationships where there is an imbalance of power and one of the partners is abusive.

Some girls like to be made fun of, to have a bit of negative emotional spikes in the conversation as well. If you want to tease them, make sure you already are familiar enough with each other when you do and keep it respectful, do not be offensive, you can be touchy and stingy but not offensive. Make fun of things about them that are clearly false, they don't care about or are momentarily. It's very important to be funny not insulting.

Teasing, when light-hearted, is a way of showing you someone you care for them, by demonstrating your intimate knowledge of them. When you tease someone, sometimes your focus can be on dispelling one of their insecurities, tease them for feeling bad about something that's normal or good about themselves. Another form of teasing is to jokingly misconstruct what they said in a conversation, pay attention to what they say specifically and then tease them by playfully twisting their words to mean something else.

When it comes to teasing with someone you were never teasing with, test the waters first. See if they are the kind that enjoy a good teasing or get offended by it. And let some time for you to get to know each other a bit, even if you are the kind that loves a good teasing, being teased by a stranger would likely come accorss as insulting, _"how dares he? he doesn't even know he"_, you feel your pride attacked if anything, you have to be teased by a friend you trust to have good intentions. And stay away from teasing people in public where their "image" is relatively important to them. It has to be on an one-on-one or group of close friends, doing it in public would be humiliation.

There is always the possibility that people may be offended by your teasing but won't tell you. In this case, you can ask them directly: Do my jokes offend you? If they do, please tell me, I don't want to offend you but sometimes I may cross the line without being aware of it. They may appreciate the gesture and will understand that your real intention is to have fun with one another, that you don't mean to offend them.

And also have moments when you give genuine praise and compliments, reasonable not exaggerated compliments. To counter the teasing or ironies _"congratulations"_, _"very nice earbuds, where you do you have them from?"_. Or expressing that you believe in her and know that she can make it. The attraction is emotional, it's an emotional connection, you got to feel it.

When you are more honest about what you like, compliments also come across as more sincere. If you always compliment someone, it seems rather dry. But when you tease someone or genuinely say that something looked better in a different way, then give a compliment, that compliment surely looks honest.

Things like: you are going to handle it, I know you can make it, I believe in you matter. Not just to a girl, but to everyone. To have someone who believes in you is important and can soften anyone. It also highlights that your teasing and jokes are just that, jokes, that in spite of that you are a good person who cares for them.

Just like a lot of things in life, if you don't make a move you will lose. Human relationships are pretty on the face, what you see is what you get. And a good way to and be attractive and be romantic is to make people feel seen. Basically, making people feel understood at the core of who they are, making them feel seen as an individual person, for what they want, they like and dislike.

I think it's also important to have an attitude with goodness that allows many behaviors, doesn't judge. To not be a judgemental person. You can even give compliments such as _"you're cute"_ or _"I've remaked you"_.

At the end of the day, don't be discouraged or react badly if you're being refused. There is plenty of fish in the sea. First you are attracted by someone physically, then you get to know them and if it happens you fall in love with their personality. For this, you need to have some good looks for start, to start a normal conversation with _"hello, how are you doing"_, or ask for help with something, to put yourself in the other person's shoes, to talk about something they like or start the conversation with something interesting. You are first attracted by looks, you go talk to them, friendly style, then you maybe or maybe not fall in love with their personality. It goes vice-versa. There is plenty of fish in the sea.

If you have done something wrong, in the same spirit of treating her like an equal not like a princess, apologize with boldness not humility. Say that you are sorry and that you will make up for it. But don't beg. Eventually, you can step on your pride and be the one who asks to make up, if you have done something terribly bad, as usually the man has to be the better person in a relationship.

Make her feel like she's an individual, like she's worth it. Don't be immoral. But remember that nobody is irreplaceable. Not you, not her. Doing things for her, helping her, signals care, it's ultimately a good thing. And yes you don't need to change yourself for nobody. But this doesn't mean you can't also improve yourself. Be yourself but also improve yourself.

If you despair, just remember that you're fine. Life is not only about your situation but also about your perspective. You can be very well and do very well but genuinely feel very terrible due to your perspective. And vice-versa. Have a very terrible life and do very bad but feel fine due to your perspective.

Now, I wouldn't recommend the latter. It's better to be a pessimit in a Porsche than a hobo optimist, but you got to count your blessings, count the things you can be grateful for and appreciate. It might change your perspective and make you realise that indeed you're fine. As long as you have a roof over your head, friends, family, a stable job and are working in the direction of your dreams, of the things you want, I think you're fine, regardless of whether or not you are in a relationship.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

I knew a guy who didn't set boundaries for him self much at all and he has a very domineering friend that keeps bossing him around and putting him down. His low self esteem could have many causes that I won't speculate in. I think he should join an assertiveness course. He has lots of good qualities too though to be fair, like he is fairly kind and smart. But it was painful to see him suffer so much.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Electra said:


> I knew a guy who didn't set boundaries for him self much at all and he has a very domineering friend that keeps bossing him around and putting him down. His low self esteem could have many causes that I won't speculate in. I think he should join an assertiveness course. He has lots of good qualities too though to be fair, like he is fairly kind and smart. But it was painful to see him suffer so much.


People need to learn to stand up for themselves. But I don't think the _"too nice syndrome"_ is actually too nice. I think it actually means _"too boring syndrome"_ or _"lacking other qualities syndrome"_.

When approaching a girl:
1. You got talk to her, find a pretext.
2. Then you have fun with each other.
3. Then you get to talk about more serious stuff.

If you are simply boring, how can you have fun with each other? How can you attract when you are simply put, a plain individual?

I find the _"too nice syndrome"_ kind of counter-intuitive because what would mean not being nice? being an ahole. Would you like that? no. In fact, people appreciate being nice. It's as simple as a cop letting you off with a warning because you were nice to him. Or someone appreciating that you helped them with carrying a certain bag or cleaning their room. And that's the key word - appreciating. When you find someone that doesn't appreciate these kinds of things, that's when you're being used, and that's a matter of standing up for yourself and stopping doing this, not of being too nice. It's okay to be as nice as possible as long as you also have a backbone when you see that your niceness is not respected.

There is more than one way to make the other person have fun when talking to you: find a subject they enjoy, talk about interesting stuff you are both fascinated about, talk about common interests like certain movies or hobbies you like, make the conversation fun for her.

You can also have fun by trying to outwit one another. Debating whether someone who is the moral person or whether someone is a bad person or about who is right in a certain situation, not in an argumentative but in a playful way: _"backstabber, I will remember that!"_, _"Aha, you don't even remember!"_, _"I expected a lot more from you"_, with the tone that gives it away that it's a joke, the tonality is very important to give away the non-serious nature of the message.

Tease them about something about them but not about something offensive. Something that is false, they don't care about or it's temporarily. If an animal runs away from them: _"look, even the cat runs away from you"_, if they are insecure about failing _"don't worry, you have options, there's always room to work as a janitor"_, again, the tone has to give it away, or even sarcastically say _"thank you for the support"_ and if they tell that to you _"always, you know that you can always count on me"_, _"I appreciate it"_. Or implying incompetence at a certain task she doesn't care about, etc.

If they give you comeback, don't deny their words, use them against them, it makes for a better comeback. In a way, teasing shows that you're aware of the bad of the people but you don't care, it's a form of getting closer to each other through joking, making fun of them. Of course, don't overdo it, don't make fun of the same person again and again, for they might feel cornered and be offended even if you had good intentions. They might not react to you, but may be upset deep inside.

The point should be to have fun not to hurt their feelings. Learn the difference between making fun and being cruel: be sarcastic, say the opposite of what you mean, in a good sarcastic tone of voice. Tease them about their looks, lack of abilities, lack of desireablity, lack of experience, behavior. If people get angry, explain them that you were trying to make them laugh and apologize for hurting their feelings.

And most importantly: accept being teased back. If you are going to push people's buttons, you got to let your buttons be pushed sometimes.

You can also have fun by trying to talk about interesting stuff you both enjoy.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dezir said:


> If you are simply boring, how can you have fun with each other? How can you attract when you are simply put, a plain individual?


Nice guy syndrome is about hiding your qualities thinking that they will scare away the girl. For example you're a nerd and don't want the girl to know it.
In return you think everyone who isn't doing the same is a douchebag and doesn't _deserve _the girl.

So just because you don't have the guts or confidence to show yourself you blame everyone else and try to screw over everyone else in the girl's vicinity.
It's not about being nice nor being boring. It's about being a coward. (and an asshole)

classic: (the guy finding out the girl was sleeping with someone else) 




Another one (okay it's a bit different, but the guy's thinking he's nice to have the girl because he's not like others):


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

jetser said:


> Nice guy syndrome is about hiding your qualities thinking that they will scare away the girl. For example you're a nerd and don't want the girl to know it.
> In return you think everyone who isn't doing the same is a douchebag and doesn't _deserve _the girl.
> 
> So just because you don't have the guts or confidence to show yourself you blame everyone else and try to screw over everyone else in the girl's vicinity.
> ...


Not entierly, I mean, yes you have a point, if you don't show your qualities, how is she going to know your qualities.

But there's a reason she went with that asian dude and not Clay. You can't be all like a deflated balloon, all agreeing with her, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. You got to push some boundaries, but in a respectful way.

You can be a bit insistent in teasing as long as the insisting is playful and the other person also laughs. Make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior.

However, teasing has to be non-hurtful. You can be offensive yet respectful. The purpose is to entertain the other person, not make them feel bad. There is a slight superiority in teasing. Or implication of lack of importance for them.

You can make fun of them in an indirect way by waiting for them to make a mistake. Don't say anything, just let them make a mistake, waiting for them to make the mistake, and then laugh at it. Again, all of this is in a playful way, I don't mean a mistake that has consequences.

On the other side of the coin, you could jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff. It's not bragging because (a) you're not saying _"look how great I am"_ but are rather indirect and jokingly _"that's what it means to be a boss"_ and (b) it's not about something important, it's not about something that says _"I'm superior to others"_.

You can make scare jokes, or show defiance in little but respectful ways, and if they show insistance to your defiance, show more defiance, of course I mean all of this in a playful respectful way, not when it comes to serious things.

You could also mix doing little things for them with not doing things for them and challenging them to be the ones that go and do those little things. Notice that I said little, because it's all in a playful atmosphere, I don't mean _"no, I'm not going to pick you up with my car from the train station"_, but rather _"nah, I won't turn off the light because I'm too far, you go ahead and do it"_.

The point of these defiances is that they make the interaction a little bit spicy, it's a lot better than having someone who always agrees with you and always does what he is asked of.

The not always does what he is asked of was discussed above with a mix of doing and not doing little things, show defiance, jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff, make fun of them in an indirect way by waiting for them to make a mistake, make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior, push some boundaries but in a respectful way. None of these are for real, in a serious situation with consequences don't do any of these, but they are just jokes for the moment in a casual way that keeps the conversation and interaction spicy.

As for defiance with words, as in not always agree with them, just be honest about what you find lame and what you find amazing, that's the simple version. Seeking validation from the girl is a no no.

Let's say that you're really into country music, and this girl you talk to is really into rock music. And you're like _"yeah, I really like rock music too"_, because you want to have something in common with her and are seeking report with her. She may or may not know it, but you just changed the way you are in order to accomodate her and appease her.

And if you do it once or twice, it doesn't matter. But if through the entire conversation, everything she says "that's what I like" you're like_ "oh, me too"_, _"oh, me too"_, it becomes very obvious that you're just falling into her reality trying to accomodate her, to appease her, to build report, you're effectively seeking validation.

Whenever you change your behavior to try to impress someone else or to try to change their perception of you, you are qualifying yourself to them. Know when you qualify yourself and create the behaviorial pattern of not doing it. Usually in social interactions, the person who is qualifying itself to the other person is the person of lower social status, that's just how it's seen from outside, that just happens organically. If someone is always trying to accomodate you, to appease you, to build report, then it just seems in the interaction that she's of lower social status you're of higher social status.

For example, if she says _"you know, I'm really into sports, I think that people that have done sports are more interesting people and have more like a fire in them, I really appreciate that"_ and you're like _"well, I used to play volleyball"_, you are qualifying yourself to her, you are indicating a willingness and a desire to qualify yourself to her. You can test if she too wants to qualify herself to you, you can make an assertion and see if she falls by it _"I find that adventurous people are the most fun"_, and if she agrees great if she doesn't agree fine because it's not like you said _"please qualify to me"_.

If she's like _"I really disagree"_ and gives a very logical answer, you know she's not trying to qualify herself to you. So joke around, tease her a little bit more, have some good conversations good vibe and try again later.

Qualifying is that narrative when you create the sense of she won you over, there's something special that's going to make it make more sense for you to hang out or get a number, etc. Disqualifying is going to make her try even harder and invest even more. So you want to do a little bit of both.

If every single time she tries to qualify you you just disqualify her, she'll give up and stop trying to qualify. If every single time she tries to qualify you you always qualify her, she's like _"this guy is too easy"_, _"there's no value in it"_. So what you want is a mix of both. Occasionally qualify, occasionally disqualify.

And the best way to do it is just be honest. The things she says that really impress you, be impressed by it. The things she says that are kind of lame, don't be afraid to tell her are kind of lame.

And if you notice the ratio is getting way out of whack maybe then occasionally be a little nicer or a little meaner, to just like make it come where it should be. But for the most part, the default is: if it's impressive be impressed, if it's lame tell her it's lame.

If you said that way too many things are lame and are being really harsh on her, start to be a little bit more nice with you standard and let her win a little more. If you're like _"that's amazing"_, _"that's amazing"_, _"that's amazing"_, remember that maybe she needs to get a little negative spike a little bit.

Mostly, instead of just trying to manage the ratio just be honest, cause the ratio should manage itself. For the most part, if you're impressed be impressed, if you think it's lame say it's lame, and then moderate as you go.

Are any of these shameless or inconsiderate traits? I would argue no. The goal of most of these traits is to make the interaction more spicy and interesting. So I would still qualify someone who does that as a nice guy. But a nice guy who is willing to mix doing little things for them with not doing things for them and challenging them to be the ones that go and do those little things, show defiance, jokingly praise yourself on non-important stuff, make fun of them in an indirect way by waiting for them to make a mistake, make jokes about having an proper/improper, normal/abnormal or moral/immoral behavior, push some boundaries but in a respectful way, not change the way you are in order to accomodate her and appease her, not seek validation from the girl, and is honest about what he finds impressive and lame.

Another definitory point of the stereotypical nice guy, rather than the normal and simple nice guy, beside unwillingness to defy them in the interaction a little bit, not always agreeing and not always doing what you're asked of, with little things of little importance, in playful and respectful way, not when it comes to serious things of course or things that have consequences. Is lack of self-esteem. He simply doesn't believe in itself, he isn't self-assured, and that matters a lot.

You could also have circumstantial traits that makes you attractive specifically to that person, because she or he is having them too: being childish, being similar, being kind but albe to stand up for you, being empathetic to the suffering of others, being reassuring with compliments and comforting with hugs. Traits that alone may not be found attractive, but of both the man and the woman has them, they can be found attractive in each other.

However, at the end of the day if you think you are undesirable it will show through. So i think what people would need to do is work on their self-esteem whether it be by working on their assuredness, and assuredness is changed by attitude. Assuredness is your belief that you are worth it, your belief that you are worthwhile, that you are of value, your belief that you are right when you make decisions, your belief that she is going to like you. And if you don't believe it, how is anybody else going to?

When you go in and start talking to someone, you have a frame, an idea of what is true about the world, and you're trying to put that frame across to the other person and get them to buy into it. If your frame itself is not helping you, if your frame yourself is something that if true would get the girl to like you, that if it's making you an attractive person, you're just setting yourself up to fail.

It's much better in general to take the assumption that you are right and are attractive and people like you and the other side of the conversation can try and disprove if they like, but you may as well at least be on your own team in this case. Imagine going in and taking the opposite approach, it's just self-sabotage, it's just not going to work.

Yes, you can have great friendships without self-esteem and all that from above. But there are a lot more pretentions and expectations in a relationship than in a friendship.

You got to understand the emotions of other people. For this, you got to be mentally present and look at them. You got to look at them and see how they feel. Sometimes, it's impossible to predict a person, but other times you can predict how they feel about you or about a certain thing you did.

The stereotypical nice guy if often always agreeing and always doing what the other person is saying because he is afraid of social rejection, lack of validation or disapproval. Some people tell them _"don't care what other people think"_ but this is dead wrong because obviously _"everybody cares what other people think"_, the secret is to have a balance _"don't care what other people think, but up to a point"_, don't care what other people think, but you should care what other people think when you walk naked on the street. You should care what other people think when you get stuck in a public toilet. People are going to laugh at you, it's going to be humiliating for you, and that is not good.

If you are unconventional, you can be unconventional and own it. And that's certainly going to help it, to own your unconventionality, it's about that self-assuredness from above. But even this one has to be up to a point, because as stated above, people judge, and it's not nice to get people to laugh at you or point you with the finger. I agree that it's not you, society is wrong, but it is what it is and that won't change society.

Clearly society is going to shunn you for being different, even if you are in the right. Probably be more discreet about it. Own your unconventionality but only up to a point. Don't care what other people think but only up to a point, so that people won't laugh at you, so that you won't have an humiliating experience, because it's not nice to get people to laugh at you or point you with the finger, and you may be in the right but they have the numbers.

But, none of these mean you have to stop being nice. There's a difference between the stereotypical nice guy and the average nice guy. That willingness to disagree and be honest and defy and so on that I've talked about before. But, they also have things in common on the _"good"_ side.

Be attentive, be aware of what is going on with the girl, pay attention, remember things, participate very actively in the conversation, in the relationship, etc. Pay attention to her, be aware of her needs, do little things to make her experience better. Show that, whatever value you have, there is an avenue to the girl getting it, showing that potentially there is something special between you and her, this will help you, if and only if, you are already a high value guy with self-esteem and willingness to be honest and show defiance in little but respectful ways. Be genuine, connect with the girl.

Be yourself but in the limit of common sense, the default version of yourself that you can be without effort, but without being shameless and inconsiderate, treating people badly. Be a good person and good people will like you, and communicate with people, don't only talk. You don't have to have a bad opinion about yourself, keep up your dignity, the way you define yourself influences the way you act, don't let external factors define you.

Everything comes from the inside and if you really want to do something you do it. People appreciate common sense. Don't be shameless unless someone is shameless with you, as in making people feel bad. You got to feel yourself how you make other people feel. Prove wrong the arguments of other people without insulting the other person.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Electra said:


> I knew a guy who didn't set boundaries for him self much at all and he has a very domineering friend that keeps bossing him around and putting him down. His low self esteem could have many causes that I won't speculate in. I think he should join an assertiveness course. He has lots of good qualities too though to be fair, like he is fairly kind and smart. But it was painful to see him suffer so much.


This is how villains are born


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dezir said:


> Not entierly, I mean, yes you have a point, if you don't show your qualities, how is she going to know your qualities.
> 
> But there's a reason she went with that asian dude and not Clay. You can't be all like a deflated balloon, all agreeing with her, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. You got to push some boundaries, but in a respectful way.
> 
> ...


I mean, why are you targeting this messages to me?
I never said I had a problem with these things, I just said I had a thing in the past which is called a syndrome it seems.

I don't have a problem with girls in general.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

jetser said:


> I mean, why are you targeting this messages to me?
> I never said I had a problem with these things, I just said I had a thing in the past which is called a syndrome it seems.
> 
> I don't have a problem with girls in general.


Because we are on a topic about the nice guy syndrome and I was discussing the nice guy syndrome.

I never said you have a problem with these things, you argued that the nice guy syndrome is about now showing your qualities, but that the nice guy syndrome is about always doing what she says, always agreeing with her, even when honestly you disagree, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. Sure, it's important to be nice, but only if you also have other things going on for you.

I find it weird that guys with nice guy syndrome won't get this because if tables were reversed they would do the same. If there was a girl who was nice, but overweight, not good looking, full of bad habbits, you can't have an emotional connection, you would find her boring, there would be no fun in your interaction, you have nothing in common or no subjects to talk about, etc. Would just being nice be enough to have you like her? depends on the level of desperation, but probably not.

In a room of 50 people you can find at least 20 nice people, and that's a conservative assumption.

The people with nice guy syndrome are frustrated that women have standards. More standards than _"he's nice"_. If men can have standards women can have standards too.

Don't get me wrong, it's important to be a nice person in general, with strangers, with people you know, when someone does you a service to appreciate it and not take it for granted, to help people when it comes to small and big things. This doesn't mean you have to be naive, because you can read the person and see who is worth helping and not. But in dating, if you go into dating just with the expectation of _"I'll be nice and they will like me"_ you're just setting yourself up to fail.

Because you're not special, I'm not special, nobody is special, there's not noble about just being nice to someone because you like them, in fact being nice to a hobo or someone you have nothing to gain from is noble, that is character, being nice to someone you like is just interest, and you're not the only nice person in the room, it's not such an unique trait to be nice, why should they date you over nice guy no #54273? You date a person because you are interested in them, and just being nice is not enough to get people interested in you.

It wasn't personal, I wasn't arguing against you or implying you are guitly of those things, I was arguing against your argument.


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## ENFPathetic (Apr 3, 2018)

It's not referring to nice people in general, even if the phrasing makes it seem that way.

It's referring to entitled people who try to win over others by playing nice and then acting like they've been cheated or wronged when the other person doesn't like them back. There are a lot of "nice" girls out there too. Insufferable little shits.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

I thought it was people dont deserve being nice to. So stop being nice to them.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Dezir said:


> Because we are on a topic about the nice guy syndrome and I was discussing the nice guy syndrome.
> 
> I never said you have a problem with these things, you argued that the nice guy syndrome is about now showing your qualities, but that the nice guy syndrome is about always doing what she says, always agreeing with her, even when honestly you disagree, you can't just be there and be nice and expect girls will like you. Sure, it's important to be nice, but only if you also have other things going on for you.
> 
> ...


Oh I see. Now I get it. Yeah, you're right. Nice guy syndrome is about thinking others should not have standards, other than _nice_.
Because it's the easiest standard to meet with.

I'm not being sarcastic, I understand it now.
Maybe I was a little bit like that.

* *




(Okay I admit I was a LOT like that.)



Thank you.


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