# Instinctual Variants and the Enneagram



## nikkiannpet (Mar 22, 2011)

Based on this I would say I'm slightly more a 3 sx. But it makes me wonder if a 6 sx is more accurate... This is why I question if you type your variant first or core type. I'm not sure which blog site I picked up the information that you need variant first to type the core...:bored:


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

For Naranjo's description I fit 4 sp best, with sx second, which is how I'd typed myself already. I prefer Susan Rhodes' descriptions for sp 4's, though, in the link provided.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

these are great links with really helpful information...will take a while to read through all of it. thanks!!


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

"sometimes they pretend to be much more dutiful than they actually are": Social Six
There were a lot of things which made me think that SO Six is my type.
so/sx 6 works the best here. I am not very good at the whole "seeming harmless" thing..in fact, I start to worry when I think others might see me as weak.

I am nowhere near being a bodybuilder but I am strong physically. 

But an interesting observation, the SP One description seems kind of Sixish..I guess a difference stems from that if the SP one is worried about something, he/she would not care as much about pissing off others in the process as a Six would.


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

*I will put in blue what I truly relate.
I will put in red what I can't relate. 

Enneagram Four *
*Self-Preservation: * _Tenacious. _*Different from other Fours (who are very oral in their drive to get *
*something good from the outside). More self-sacrificing, *more self-contained.* A denial of envy, trouble *
*finding envy in themselves, partly because of the descriptions in vogue when the Enneagram first *
*became known. So afraid of dependency, of being hurt, they become counterdependent, autonomous. *
*Self-demanding *("No matter what it may cost..."). Instead of demanding from the outside world, they 
demand from themselves. *Self-devouring; they can turn on themselves with cruelty*—"I'll make myself do 
it!" Van Gogh is an example. His painting became a kind of religion and he chose a life of great poverty 
"for his art." He sold one painting in his lifetime, yet recently the Sunflower sold for $54 million. (Gaugin 
was an Eight.) *This subtype doesn't play the victim; volunteers as martyr without exhibiting it*, more of a
nobleness. 

But I found this one of the best descriptions for sp 4.


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

BroNerd said:


> But an interesting observation, the SP One description seems kind of Sixish..I guess a difference stems from that if the SP one is worried about something, he/she would not care as much about pissing off others in the process as a Six would.


The SP mindset of a 1 is preserving self out of rightness. To do wrong may create problems for yourself and others and make you look corrupt because you don't know the right thing to do. Hence, SP1s are known for neuroticism.

Ya, your stance may count as of an SP quality because it is trying to see trustworthy, but not defenseless. I don't know how much trust I put into these descriptions. I kinda see all of them in myself, probably the most in a single one though, and I try not to visit the one of the subtypes too much.


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## AbioticPrime (Sep 1, 2011)

From what I understand Naranjo is simply describing how the instincts might be expressed by each type. 



> *Sexual*: Possession/Obsession. Very angry and dramatic. More emotional, hysterical, in the broadersense (more bravado). The will to take hold of the other and make them do what you want, tyrannical;
> passion for possession and surrender (like the Praying Mantis). "Going whole hog including the postage,"
> full involvement, more "sadistic." More angry, more liking to humiliate or insult, sometimes to cause
> suffering (e.g., Stalin or Hussein).
> ...


The Sx/So description is spot on. Sadism, narcissism, and tyranny are my 3 vices, it's relieving to finally see them connected in one place.

Though, I get very angry/dramatic/emotional, but the way I express these isn't 'hysterical'. It's usually very cold and monotone. I guess he is referring to the elevated energy levels when excited as 'hysterical'.


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

...mehh...i identify with a 4 more than a 5...but sx 5 describes me much better as does so...though in _The Wisdom of the Enneagram _i identify with sx 5 and so or sx 4...


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

Febe said:


> ...mehh...i identify with a 4 more than a 5...but sx 5 describes me much better as does so...though in _The Wisdom of the Enneagram _i identify with sx 5 and so or sx 4...


From what I've observed here, people who identify most with 4 and 5 are usually neither


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## Arrow (Mar 2, 2012)

I don't like any of those descriptions for my types. The closest one I found kinship with was the sexual 7, but it still left a lot to be desired.


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

aconite said:


> From what I've observed here, people who identify most with 4 and 5 are usually neither


...so who the hell i am according to you?...i'll consider whatever "wisdom" you have on the matter...being a 6 would make my life worthless...


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Febe said:


> ...so who the hell i am according to you?...i'll consider whatever "wisdom" you have on the matter...being a 6 would make my life worthless...


Why would being a 6 make your life worthless ? As a 6 my life is very much worthwhile. Desired type doesn't change who you are at your core. Try and keep that in mind rather than being something you're not.


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

...hahaha...if i was 6 i would feel my life was really pointless...being bound by rules or breaking them....i don't respect that...no offense....i still analyze 6 4 and 5 behavior....
...i felt i was a 4 because i could relate to it all and the basic desires were definitely me...i'm still open to suggestions about my type but i strongly believe its a 4....


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Febe said:


> ...hahaha...if i was 6 i would feel my life was really pointless...being bound by rules or breaking them....i don't respect that...no offense....i still analyze 6 4 and 5 behavior....
> ...i felt i was a 4 because i could relate to it all and the basic desires were definitely me...i'm still open to suggestions about my type but i strongly believe its a 4....


Being bound by rules , or breaking them ? I don't respect that either, so...you're really not making much sense here. I suggest you do some research and stop making generalizations based on stereotypes, that will be helpful in your search. Read outside of the forum and do yourself a favour. I'm convinced at this point that people will believe just about anything. LOlz, so amused.


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

Febe said:


> ...so who the hell i am according to you?...i'll consider whatever "wisdom" you have on the matter...being a 6 would make my life worthless...


I don't know "who the hell are you". It wasn't a personal remark, just a general observation. Also, I asked you once to refrain from starting and ending every sentence with ellipses, because it makes your posts harder to read.

Tell me, please, how being a Six would make your life worthless. You are who you are, and an internet label doesn't change it even a little bit. I think it could be seen as rude by some Sixes, btw.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

aconite said:


> I don't know "who the hell are you". It wasn't a personal remark, just a general observation. Also, I asked you once to refrain from starting and ending every sentence with ellipses, because it makes your posts harder to read.
> 
> Tell me, please, how being a Six would make your life worthless. You are who you are, and an internet label doesn't change it even a little bit. I think it could be seen as rude by some Sixes, btw.


More naive and ignorant. We forgive those kind


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

...yeah...i'll go away from this thread so not to disturb you...what i did was quite pointless...i apologize for what i did...it was quite immature...



> Being bound by rules , or breaking them ? I don't respect that either, so...you're really not making much sense here. I suggest you do some research and stop making generalizations based on stereotypes, that will be helpful in your search. Read outside of the forum and do yourself a favour. I'm convinced at this point that people will believe just about anything. LOlz, so amused.


...i have been doing research...i just would feel like being a stone dropped in a pile of stones if i was a 6...it would destroy me...in any event that is my problem...fell free to pm me if you feel so inclined to point out what 6s are really about...


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## BeauGarcon (May 11, 2011)

Febe said:


> ...hahaha...if i was 6 i would feel my life was really pointless...being bound by rules or breaking them....i don't respect that...no offense....i still analyze 6 4 and 5 behavior....
> ...i felt i was a 4 because i could relate to it all and the basic desires were definitely me...i'm still open to suggestions about my type but i strongly believe its a 4....


I feel sad because most people think like this in this forum.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

BeauGarcon said:


> I feel sad because most people think like in this forum.


I don't know if they do, and I don't feel I fully understand what @_Febe_ was saying, but yeah, I'm pretty sure my daughter is a 6 and she is so profoundly awesome and beautiful in so many ways. Not to mention... Woody Allen and Jack Kerouac. I often wish I were more like a six, in all honesty. Being a four can suck, regularly. But every type has it's own special way of sucking


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

brainheart said:


> I don't know if they do, and I don't feel I fully understand what @_Febe_ was saying, but yeah, I'm pretty sure my daughter is a 6 and she is so profoundly awesome and beautiful in so many ways. Not to mention... Woody Allen and Jack Kerouac. I often wish I were more like a six, in all honesty. Being a four can suck, regularly. But every type has it's own special way of sucking


...i am not saying 6s are not capable of being awesome or beautiful...it is just of my opinion that 4s comprehend human nature better than other types...to be a 6 i would feel worthless because i believe no matter what i did or do I would not comprehend true art and be a fake...attempting to be a 4...how ironic....
...i believe as a 6 i would seek to help people and be their friends....but i love observing people from distances and making up new people in my mind based on those observations...it happens naturally...so to tell myself "you're a 6 and you can't comprehend real art and people"....i would get shattered all over again and believe life is pointless...why do i exist?...
...and go away from the world embittered by the cynicism and irony of how cruel life can be...anyways...that may be heavily stereotyped and what not...that was the impression i get from those enneagram books i read...i am truly and sincerely sorry for any offending i do to anyone...my mind itself tugs me towards the 4 and then tugs me toward the 6 and then again to the 5...i honestly would say I'm a nine except i'm much too self-centered and when something is revealed about me is revealed i react in bitter hatred and seemingly unrivaled anger...i am sincerely sorry...


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

Febe said:


> it is just of my opinion that 4s comprehend human nature better than other types...to be a 6 i would feel worthless because i believe no matter what i did or do I would not comprehend true art and be a fake


The issue isn't your opinions, it's that your opinions are clouding any skerrick of objectivism you could have, so long as you hold onto views like that you will be unable to a) view the enneagrams as a whole and varied way of being and b) view yourself as anything other than the stereotypes you cling to.

If you take being typed as anything other an a 4 as an insult/bad thing you're doing it wrong.


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## BeauGarcon (May 11, 2011)

Sometimes people seem to change their behaviour to fit the type they find enticing (or what the consensus dictates what is desirable). You can find this a bit everywhere in this forum, I find it farcical. I don't know why but for some kind of reason this attitude goes well together with the passive-aggressive behaviour of some people here and how a small majority really has no personal opinion and just wants to conform and fit in to be liked by the rest. 

It's the reason why so many people are mistyped; they don't look for what resembles how they really are, it's like lying to yourself just so you have a good self/public-image or don't invoke conflict (with yourself or with the group). Everybody does this to some extend but some people are more aware of the fact that they do this (being aware of this is something I find positive, it gives you the possibility to ignore this 'contructed' image or the 'convienience' image and really look inside you). 
Some people find it intimidating to really look in their own actions/head (they just live with the flow), these people subconciously evade or ignore everything that could strip the SHALALALALA off and put their identity NAKEDDDD. Some people are more prone to do this.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Febe said:


> ...i am not saying 6s are not capable of being awesome or beautiful...*it is just of my opinion that 4s comprehend human nature better than other types...to be a 6 i would feel worthless because i believe no matter what i did or do I would not comprehend true art and be a fake...attempting to be a 4...how ironic....
> *


Your time will be better spent actually learning what Type 6 and 4 are all about instead of spewing the most ridiculous ..unfounded statements. 

If your self-worth is tied in with what type label you take on, you have bigger issues to worry about than type 6s and their supposed inability to appreciate and 'comprehend' art. Rubbish. I thought the preposterous shit wouldn't bleed forth, but oh yes, it did. 

Also core 4s don't look to other types to validate their worth. Art appreciation is not type-specific, obviously. You need a good strong dose of objectivity. I see none in your post. 



Febe said:


> ...i believe as a 6 i would seek to help people and be their friends....but i love observing people from distances and *making up new people in my mind* based on those observations...it happens naturally...so to tell myself "you're a 6 and you can't comprehend real art and people"....i would get shattered all over again and believe life is pointless...why do i exist?...



Get a book or a few articles and read. Hopefully, then you'll realize how baseless and inane your statements are. 6s don't all care about helping people and being their friends.6w5s, especially, are known as the detached, silent observers. I am feeling generous today, so I'll link you to two good descriptions:

1. Typewatch Enneagram: Typewatch Enneagram Type Descriptions
2. the enneagram ...info from the underground

And most people, including 4s and 6s, don't make up _new people _ in their minds. Look into that. 

It's about time you stop being nearly insulting and ignorant. Insinuating that people of a certain type can't appreciate art (and understand people) and being that type would make you feel shattered and acquaint you with the famed pointlessness of life is patently ridiculous. 




Febe said:


> ...and go away from the world embittered by the cynicism and irony of how cruel life can be...anyways...that may be heavily stereotyped and what not...that was the impression i get from those enneagram books i read...i am truly and sincerely sorry for any offending i do to anyone...my mind itself tugs me towards the 4 and then tugs me toward the 6 and then again to the 5...i honestly would say I'm a nine except i'm much too self-centered and when something is revealed about me is revealed i react in bitter hatred and seemingly unrivaled anger...i am sincerely sorry...


That's not a stereotype, thankfully. I will have to tell you that your reading comprehension skills need work. I can guarantee you that no Enneagram book in existence propagates such pointless, borderline demeaning, stereotypes against Type 6 or any other types. 

For the record, you sound like someone who projects their hatred of their type onto others (a type 6 defense mechanism btw), all the time, denying their own type in favour of a more popular type like 4, guess what ? 5 and even 8. 

Lastly, covering up snide remarks with pretentious politeness doesn't make you or your 'opinions' look any better. What you're spewing here is regarded as typism on this forum. I will attribute your statements to ignorance, and I am fully expecting you to rectify your glaring lack of understanding. Don't offer me another 'polite' pseudo-apology. Go back and actually read the material, so you don't make yourself look worse with another set of prejudiced statements behind you.


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## 543222187 (Apr 4, 2012)

Boss said:


> Your time will be better spent actually learning what Type 6 and 4 are all about instead of spewing the most ridiculous ..unfounded statements.
> 
> If your self-worth is tied in with what type label you take on, you have bigger issues to worry about than type 6s and their supposed inability to appreciate and 'comprehend' art. Rubbish. I thought the preposterous shit wouldn't bleed forth, but oh yes, it did.
> 
> ...


...isn't new people a normal thing?...dosen't everybody at least idealize people or make new ones to serve their minds?...


....i realize my mistakes and now believe i'm 6w5 though i'm still not certain(lol...)...the real reason i thought 4 was my jealously and possessiveness towards people and hatred of whenever someone does something better than me because i believe i could never be like that and because i hate it when people copy me when, in reality they're not copying me...i also hate people who are not authentic...anyways...that derails the thread so i might as well post a new thread in the WME section...


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Wake said:


> How I've seen the instinctual variants applied is completely disconnected from the Enneagram type. It generally is a description completely independent of the Enneagram type and not aligning with motivations at all but where your focus is. I would be tempted to say that most of the instinctual variant descriptions I've seen are completely based off your lifestyle. Typewatch seems to not truly connect them, and many people rely on their descriptions.
> 
> Naranjo gave a very different description of instinctual variants in context of the Enneagram type, making the two typologies dependent off one and other. Here are notes from a workshop: http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I like Naranjo's view... In his book Character and Neurosis he says that the constitutional differences among the subtypes are the most clearly seen in type Six. He defines social Sixes ectomorphic, self-preservated Sixes endomorphic and sexual Sixes mesomorphic. Oh, he could be wrong... But my little and pathetic empirical research has shown that this could be correct  Observations of the several Sixes I know for sure and very well fit for Naranjo's theory which is pretty interesting. 

Also I think that the subtypes in general play a huge role in defining the personality. I, for example, am probably a Six, I'm just not sure if I fit there either and am thus unknown for now. Anyway, if I assume I'm a Six, I would be a very different kind of Six than many other Sixes I know. My mum and my SO are also Sixes, both sp-first. Both naturally endomorphic. First I thought they were so-firsts because of their duty and moral issues and but then I realized it could be type 1 fixation. They are both very warm and nice persons whom most people like very much and very easily  "See how nice I am?" fits very well, especially for my mum. She prefers to get along with everybody which is a HUGE difference between her and me! 

I believe I'm sx-first. And I am so much more confrontational and can be seemingly ignorant about other people's opinions... Strength and beauty, one of the things that made me see the type Six in me. It reminds me of the Beauty and the Beast, my favorite Disney movie  I gain muscle easily for a woman and love that, I love feeling strong, physically or mentally. Btw, I show off my muscles at least once a week to my SO  Or anyone who might be even slightly interested xD I'm very concerned about my looks but with humour and twinkle in my eye 




Rim said:


> @_Wake_
> ugh...would being very concerned about how attractive I am or more exactly concerned about how unattractive and how it isn't enough how well I pulled myself together..the need to be self reliant , independent, critical thinking, strong, willful and so on be sx? -.- despite not being overly concerned about how physiclly attractive my partner is...I'm very concerned about my own physical attractiveness....its kind of shameful and maybe superficial...but there it is.
> 
> It isn't just the physical thou. I need to "have it together"...on the inside as well.
> ...


 @_Rim_, well, I think that seems pretty much sx  I can relate to that very much, btw. Also to the part where you mentioned shameful and superficial. I know I'm thinking about my looks too much, worrying my attractiveness too much and being somewhat vain and also ashamed of all that. But that's who I am, those things are important to me. I can recognize the fear beneath all that, trying to be attractive and strong is my way to handle fear. Also making myself outsider is another way to handle fear. I'm afraid of not being liked so I make myself an outsider or form my own groups with other outsiders or with others who are not popular in general (I do that a lot).




Febe said:


> ...so who the hell i am according to you?...i'll consider whatever "wisdom" you have on the matter...being a 6 would make my life worthless...


O.O

Typism, typism, typism... I wonder whether you will really have nerve to participate in the Six forum after all you have said here. I mean, what do you really think Sixes are?! Well, you could be lucky, not all Sixes are as reactive and defensive as I am.

Btw, I still remember replying to your type me thread and suggesting type Six for you. You seem sexual Six to me but I could be wrong.



Febe said:


> ...hahaha...
> ...i felt i was a 4 because i could relate to it all and the basic desires were definitely me...i'm still open to suggestions about my type but i strongly believe its a 4....


...hahaha for you... You sound like me in this one  The times I've thought I'm a Four, oh they are countless. I really felt like it, I was as honest to myself as I could be. But that doesn't make me a Four, I could have been wrong  And I would be stupid if I thought I wouldn't do it again. I'm not judging people because they don't know their types but keep switching them. *The thing that REALLY bothers me is called typism - arghh!*



aconite said:


> Also, I asked you once to refrain from starting and ending every sentence with ellipses, because it makes your posts harder to read.


Yeah, I remember that too and I'm pretty sure I know what is behind that tendency. However, @_aconite_, you don't know how to treat CP Sixes! _*assuming the Hermione face when she was talking about girls to Harry and Ron*_ You shouldn't tell them what they shouldn't do, it's the fastest way to make them do exactly that. Much better way is either to ignore it or just say that "Oh, you're doing that too, that must be popular" and then start doing that by yourself too  Okay, don't take this too seriously. It applies to me but I don't know about other CP Sixes 



aconite said:


> Tell me, please, how being a Six would make your life worthless. You are who you are, and an internet label doesn't change it even a little bit. I think it could be seen as rude by some Sixes, btw.


Yeah, the label won't change anything. If we knew nothing about Enneagram, we would be the same. Maybe not as aware but basically we would be the same. Labels shouldn't be any prophecies but tools to learn more about yourself and grow. The way some people see the labels reminds me sadly of self-fulfilling prophecy. I wish people would get that these labels, MBTI or Enneagram or whatever, won't tell anything about the intelligence, happiness, popularity etc.


Whoops, what a message, pretty much as coherent as my own thoughts. Well, I seem to have become enthusiastic about this... :kitteh:


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## aconite (Mar 26, 2012)

zallla said:


> Yeah, I remember that too and I'm pretty sure I know what is behind that tendency. However, @_aconite_, you don't know how to treat CP Sixes! _*assuming the Hermione face when she was talking about girls to Harry and Ron*_ You shouldn't tell them what they shouldn't do, it's the fastest way to make them do exactly that. Much better way is either to ignore it or just say that "Oh, you're doing that too, that must be popular" and then start doing that by yourself too  Okay, don't take this too seriously. It applies to me but I don't know about other CP Sixes












AM I DOING IT RIGHT??? :shocked:


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

aconite said:


> AM I DOING IT RIGHT??? :shocked:



Oh, I've always known you learn very quickly ^__^ Heh, I just love the way you make me LOL xD


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