# What are the differences between 5 vs 6 paranoia



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Some authors such as Riso & Hudson mention that unhealthy 8s when stressed, may go to the stress point at 5 and take on the paranoid qualities of type 5. Then on the other hand, the paranoid personality is associated with type 6, and Naranjo considers 6 to be the paranoid personality type in the enneagram. How is type 5 paranoid? How does the 5 paranoia manifest as? How is it different from 6 paranoia? How is 6 paranoid? Why do we associate type 6 with paranoia but not type 5?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

I know that R & H also associate paranoia with 5wcp6 wing, where as he considers 5w4 to be more nihilistic.

I think that the answer might have more to do with the underlying *reason *then any other factor. A 5 who believes that his privacy is being invaded can be just as "paranoid" as any 6.


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

When I compare the anxiety between 5 and 6, I look at how they habitually respond to it. I visualize 6 as someone who becomes more overtly fidgety, frenetic, nervous when their stressor is unresponsive or unpredictable. 6s become more talkative, provocative, panicky, stirred up when anxious, while 5 tactically distances and retreats. 6s project and generate their own anxiety (fear of fear itself), while 5 keeps their fears in check and don't lose as much of their cool-headed thinking during crises. 

Both types desire predictability, but I think 5's focus more on securing facts and foresight to outcomes, while 6s focus more on securing trust and credibility, which is often framed in a more interpersonal context.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Quang said:


> When I compare the anxiety between 5 and 6, I look at how they habitually respond to it. I visualize 6 as someone who becomes more overtly fidgety, frenetic, nervous when their stressor is unresponsive or unpredictable. 6s become more talkative, provocative, panicky, stirred up when anxious, while 5 tactically distances and retreats. 6s project and generate their own anxiety (fear of fear itself), while 5 keeps their fears in check and don't lose as much of their cool-headed thinking during crises.
> 
> Both types desire predictability, but I think 5's focus more on securing facts and foresight to outcomes, while 6s focus more on securing trust and credibility, which is often framed in a more interpersonal context.


How does this make them paranoid, respectively though? Or lead to manifestation of paranoia?


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

As unhealthy 5s are supposed to hoard information etc. to be prepared, maybe it's a paranoia surrounding people trying to either access that information that they don't want to share, or that people will try to set things up so the 5 can't be prepared? I'm guessing to an extent.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

I just wanted clarification on precisely what paranoia is and found this dictionary definition online.



> 1._Psychiatry. _a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.
> 
> 2.baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.


I don't see this with type 5. All I can guess is that Riso saw type 8 as disintegrating to paranoia. Which by implication of the line of disintegration means going to type 5 (personally, I don't agree with that theory and over the years the Enneagram Institute has changed their own take on it). An example that comes to mind is Sadaam Hussein's rule (type 8) that ended when the US military found him hiding in a hole (some may interpret that as a disintegration to type 5). Throughout his rule is a lot of behavior that might be interpreted in terms of paranoia as well.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

o.o hmm..can't really relate to being paranoid outside of social anxiety, which is easily solved by logically understanding that other people's views and opinions of oneself are just that...opinions. I can have however anticipatory anxiety related to events and my mind can run wild with possibilities...however I rarely stress over things out of my control, which ofc includes other people. There is a Japanese saying "Shikata ga nai" which kinda means "It cannot be helped"..or "Shit happens".

<.< tbh I'm more often relaxed and uncaring when its about external things & people. My attitude can be summed up easy in one word: "Meh..."


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> I just wanted clarification on precisely what paranoia is and found this dictionary definition online.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this with type 5. All I can guess is that Riso saw type 8 as disintegrating to paranoia. Which by implication of the line of disintegration means going to type 5 (personally, I don't agree with that theory and over the years the Enneagram Institute has changed their own take on it). An example that comes to mind is Sadaam Hussein's rule (type 8) that ended when the US military found him hiding in a hole (some may interpret that as a disintegration to type 5). Throughout his rule is a lot of behavior that might be interpreted in terms of paranoia as well.


It could be that it's not R&H who wrote that. I just double-checked my sources though I decidedly remember reading something that suggested that. 

It should be noted, though, that one can make a case for type 8 having a somewhat innate disposition towards paranoia in how 8 thinks it's against the world: 



 Sandra Maitri said:


> He views reality from the perspective of someone who might be conned, exploited, humiliated, or otherwise threatened, and so his prejudice is to look for the potentially hurtful, the more powerful, the darker and more animalistic side of things. People are bastards and bums until proven otherwise in his inner world. His eyes—the body part associated with this type—are not open to things as they are, but rather see life through a veil of prejudice.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

laurie17 said:


> As unhealthy 5s are supposed to hoard information etc. to be prepared, maybe it's a paranoia surrounding people trying to either access that information that they don't want to share, or that people will try to set things up so the 5 can't be prepared? I'm guessing to an extent.


 Yeah, I think so too.

Six: "Are you/is this a threat?"
Five: "Are you trying to extract something from me?"

Even though I'm a generally open person, that boundary (like a firewall) between "me and others" and "private and public" is always being monitored, and someone who refuses to respect that boundary will trigger my paranoia. While I may not think anything I possess may have any value or worth sharing (fuck, if people just outright _ask_, I'd probably be willing to give it to them for _free_!), the fact that someone is deliberately crossing that boundary to target that information/my belongings means the "fear: getting violated" is active, and the information/thing being targeted could potentially be used to "set things up that (I) can't be prepared for", which means "fear: being controlled" is now activated. In the event that I'm not incredibly pissed off, they get one warning that I find it disrespectful and uncomfortable, and if they ignore that, then they get put into my blacklist.

Since fives could also hoard the few material things they need, sometimes their avarice-based paranoia means they're trying to guard their stuff from being stolen or devalued. If they're trying to do something involving money, then there will be a lot of research done to make sure they're not getting ripped off (sometimes disguised as "investigating all of the options to make sure they're making an informed choice"). Other times, the root of that paranoia can stem from the five's lack of confidence after setting out to do something, and the result is not what they anticipated, so the paranoia is now over their perceived knowledge deficiency.

Six's paranoia, I would say, encompasses broader topics. Perhaps it's pre-emptively trying to discern someone's intentions, by evaluating someone's character and seeing whether they're trustworthy, by evaluating whether the environment is safe, or by evaluating whether the six itself is sane and could operate in a way that isn't self-sabotaging. Since sixes are generally more social than fives, I get the feeling that they don't react as harshly or strongly to the threat of resource extraction (since I bet sixes are more likely to believe in "sharing"), but they will react to the threat of invasion (because "changes" to the environment they're familiar with is a kind of "invasion").

Five's paranoia just seems more specific to me.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Entropic said:


> It should be noted, though, that one can make a case for type 8 having a somewhat innate disposition towards paranoia in how 8 thinks it's against the world:


I agree that any disintegration of type 8 already has the potential for paranoia due to the nature of the type. I don't understand why type 5 is even being considered with that. As I said, the only reason I can think of has to do with some idea that type 8 disintegrates at type 5 (which has no foundation except that a line on a symbol says it's supposed to be true).


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

enneathusiast said:


> I just wanted clarification on precisely what paranoia is and found this dictionary definition online.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see this with type 5. All I can guess is that Riso saw type 8 as disintegrating to paranoia. Which by implication of the line of disintegration means going to type 5 (personally, I don't agree with that theory and over the years the Enneagram Institute has changed their own take on it). An example that comes to mind is Sadaam Hussein's rule (type 8) that ended when the US military found him hiding in a hole (some may interpret that as a disintegration to type 5). Throughout his rule is a lot of behavior that might be interpreted in terms of paranoia as well.


Do you think he might have had a 6 fix? I don't actually know much about Saddam... That kinda sound weird, lol!


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

FreeBeer said:


> o.o hmm..can't really relate to being paranoid outside of social anxiety, which is easily solved by logically understanding that other people's views and opinions of oneself are just that...opinions. I can have however anticipatory anxiety related to events and my mind can run wild with possibilities...however I rarely stress over things out of my control, which ofc includes other people. There is a Japanese saying "Shikata ga nai" which kinda means "It cannot be helped"..or "Shit happens".
> 
> <.< tbh I'm more often relaxed and uncaring when its about external things & people. My attitude can be summed up easy in one word: "Meh..."


I can think of a few 6's that look surprisingly calm and unflustered. I see that dat 9 

With many of them though, they look calm on the outside but have a bunch of vascillating, jittery thoughts inside at times of when triggers are pushed. It also just goes to show how the 3 fix smoothes these things over. ^_^ 

Insecurity always seemed a more relateable term than paranoia but yeah...

*yay Japan quotes*


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## westlose (Oct 9, 2014)

Well, I don't think that paranoia would be the perfet word to describe this feeling.
It's probably more like "anxiety". In my case, I just fear "not fitting" in the norm, and missing the point. I want to stay grounded to the truth, and don't want to make any mistake.

As long as my work is good, I've no reason of being anxious. But a single mistake is done, and it's like the whole world become chaos.

When something I believe (in this case, my work) doesn't work anymore, it seems like the whole system become unreliable. Then there's a phase when I cannot trust anything, because I'm affraid that it will fail again. I become overly passive and observant, "paranoid" in a certain sense. Nothing is seen as reliable or true, and I can't rely on my perception anymore.

Here's the source of this paranoia : not trusting one's perception or judgment. It seems like everything is wrong, and that I'm lost in illusions. It's more emotional than logic I guess. Because when I start using logic, everything starts to make sense. Then, everything is seen as a nuance of truth and lies. There are no more absolute. 

I hope that my story helps, and isn't too subjective. But that's how I experience this 6's paranoia.


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## Blindspots (Jan 27, 2014)

I imagine 5 paranoia to be the perception that people, knowingly or otherwise, are depriving them of resources (as others above have discussed), such as information, space and time to maneuver comfortably. It's the kind that will want to ask others when they are very unhealthy, "Why are you sabotaging my attempts at survival?", as if operating on a scarcity sort of mentality.

Or that's at least how I interpret their fear of being engulfed by the rest of the world.


6s might not ask this, perceiving that other people do have a hand had their survival, which can be positive or negative. (It's the possibility of negative actions by others that will make the 6 anxious.) I'd explain it through 6 being an attachment type and being more anchored on the rest of humankind, versus the frustration of 5.


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## Zamyatin (Jun 10, 2014)

@Entropic I mentioned this song to you before on Skype but I'm reposting it here for others. It's a great example of the sx 5w6's paranoia. Pay more attention to the lyrics than the video (which is more a 3w4 brand of social criticism).






Big Data - Dangerous lyrics | LyricsMode.com



> *How could you know, how could you know?
> That those were my eyes
> Peepin' through the floor, it's like they know
> It's like they know I'm looking from the outside*
> ...


The bolded sections are particularly revealing. Using the metaphor of a stalker/voyeur, the singer sings about his sense of being outside of the world. "Peeping through the floor", "I'm looking from the outside". Nowhere in this song does the singer actually _engage_ with the outside world. He's an observer, a watcher, someone with a plan. But the only action he explicitly takes is to run away when he feels threatened, to "sink down, into the dark" reminding himself to "keep on runnin'", withdrawing further from life when it starts to encroach upon him. The fact that he specifically says "_keep_ on runnin'" implies that he has always been running, and he is reminding himself to not stop, to not pause and engage. He must keep running from everything.

Most people familiar with the Enneagram will recognize the unhealthy 5 here, and the sexual instinct is obvious through his fixation on a specific person -- his obsessive behavior is towards the person he is stalking, and only to that person, which he perceives as love. What is unique to this song is it also explains the paranoia that accompanies this state of unhealth, and it is quite different from type 6 paranoia. Unlike 6s, he doesn't really fear lack of security. He's not worried about lacking support in any real sense, nor is he expressing frustration that everything is "unreliable" as you often hear unhealthy 6s claim. His fear is specifically 5ish. He's worried that people know his thoughts.

_How could they know, how could they know
What I been thinking?
Like they're right inside my head because they know
Because they know, what I been hidin'_

You see, 5s withdraw into their heads, fearing direct engagement from the world and instead relegating themselves to a remote, observing role. The only place they feel is truly their is their mind, the only things that truly belong to them being their private thoughts. And their paranoia revolves around this self-perception. The singer is quite literally worried that the authorities, "they", will know what's going on in his head. He's afraid that the world is encroaching on the one thing that is truly his, and his reaction is to withdraw and to run away.

When people think of the stereotypical conspiracy theorist, the person who lives in the middle of the wilderness with tinfoil hats rambling about mind control waves and how the government is watching everything and reading your thoughts, they tend to attribute this particular kind of paranoia with type 6. That's not actually accurate. 6ish paranoia and fear can be metaphorically represented as someone standing on a crumbling rope bridge, half of the planks missing, feeling they can't move forwards or backwards because the remaining planks will break under their weight, yet also feeling they can't stay where they are as the plank they are currently standing on is also about to break. 6s very much feel like they are inside the world, and they feel that world is treacherous and without anything sure to hold onto. 

The tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist stereotype is actually type 5. In contrast with 6s, they feel completely outside the world, insulated by their brain and observation, yet they also feel that world is constantly trying to oppress them, to invade that private space between their ears. And so they withdraw, fearing that others will see inside them.

_Nobody's listening when we're alone
Nobody's listening, there's nobody listening
No one can hear us when we're alone
No one can hear us, no, no one can hear us_

It's telling that this song, in true sx style, concludes by expressing the belief that the fear of the singer, of having others know "what I been thinking", is resolved when he's alone with the object of his obsession. Only then is nobody listening.


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## Ne Plus Ultra (May 18, 2015)

As a 5w4, I can say that my paranoia is definitely of the extraction/boundary violation variety. Some fear-based questions that go through my head on a semi-regular basis:

--Is this individual or activity taking up too much of my time and energy so that I can't focus on what's important to me?
--Is this individual or business trying to rip me off?
--Is this individual, organization, or technology invading my privacy?


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropic said:


> He views reality from the perspective of someone who might be conned, exploited, humiliated, or otherwise threatened, and so his prejudice is to look for the potentially hurtful, the more powerful, the darker and more animalistic side of things.


I don't view myself as "against the world" -- however when I am in a hazardous environment I do think this way usually. Admittedly, the term "animalistic" isn't the word I would use.



> People are bastards and bums until proven otherwise in his inner world.


I don't think of most people as bums... some are bastards though



> His eyes—the body part associated with this type—are not open to things as they are, but rather see life through a veil of prejudice.


Can you explain this? I don't really have much prejudiced views against people by race. Unless you mean prejudging others as being a potentially a threat -- I usually view most people as neutral (it can go either way, still pay attention to what's going on).


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

RobynC said:


> I don't view myself as "against the world" -- however when I am in a hazardous environment I do think this way usually. Admittedly, the term "animalistic" isn't the word I would use.
> 
> I don't think of most people as bums... some are bastards though
> 
> Can you explain this? I don't really have much prejudiced views against people by race. Unless you mean prejudging others as being a potentially a threat -- I usually view most people as neutral (it can go either way, still pay attention to what's going on).


i believe it means we don't trust others
they must prove to us they are worthy of trust
tbh i don't trust anyone and nothing really surprises me
i believe that all people are capable of evil acts
hence the veil


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RobynC said:


> I don't view myself as "against the world" -- however when I am in a hazardous environment I do think this way usually. Admittedly, the term "animalistic" isn't the word I would use.


Yes, because the quote is about type 8, not 6. 8s view themselves as being against or moving against the world, that the world is imposing itself upon them and they have to fight back. 



> I don't think of most people as bums... some are bastards though


Not sure what the difference is. Bum, bastard, asshole. 



> Can you explain this? I don't really have much prejudiced views against people by race. Unless you mean prejudging others as being a potentially a threat -- I usually view most people as neutral (it can go either way, still pay attention to what's going on).


8s care about truth, especially their perception of truth. Their prejudice is that they think they view the world objectively and more honestly than everyone else. 



Vinniebob said:


> i believe it means we don't trust others
> they must prove to us they are worthy of trust
> tbh i don't trust anyone and nothing really surprises me
> i believe that all people are capable of evil acts
> hence the veil


The quote is about type 8, not 5 or 6.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

she is a type 6
as we approach middle age our functions even out
we lose our intensity and our tri types change

the title of the thread is type 5 v 6 paranoia


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vinniebob said:


> she is a type 6
> as we approach middle age our functions even out
> we lose our intensity and our tri types change
> 
> the title of the thread is type 5 v 6 paranoia


And the quoted post you commented on where you interpreted what she commented on was a quote about type 8, _not_ 6, so your interpretations of her interpretations of a text about type 8 become inapplicable. You are essentially trying to interpret a text in how it pertains to type 6 and her, though the text is not about type 6 and her. Get it? "The veil", as Maitri writes here, alludes to how 8s shut themselves down and off to other ways to view reality other than their own and think their perspective or point of view is the only valid way or truth, and that they are viewing the world objectively. 

And no, I do not believe in that you can change your enneagram type in this life. The amount of work it takes to reach the higher levels of your current type alone can take a lifetime and you expect someone to be able to work through themselves to such a degree that they can change their type and begin to work on other issues other than their core? Highly doubt it.

And yes, this thread is about 5 vs 6 paranoia, but again, my quote that I provided that she commented on, was a quote about type 8 and how type 8 can also be considered a paranoid type.

Please read the context of discussion and the context of the post you quoted.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Entropic said:


> And the quoted post you commented on where you interpreted what she commented on was a quote about type 8, _not_ 6, so your interpretations of her interpretations of a text about type 8 become inapplicable. You are essentially trying to interpret a text in how it pertains to type 6 and her, though the text is not about type 6 and her. Get it? "The veil", as Maitri writes here, alludes to how 8s shut themselves down and off to other ways to view reality other than their own and think their perspective or point of view is the only valid way or truth, and that they are viewing the world objectively.
> 
> And no, I do not believe in that you can change your enneagram type in this life. The amount of work it takes to reach the higher levels of your current type alone can take a lifetime and you expect someone to be able to work through themselves to such a degree that they can change their type and begin to work on other issues other than their core? Highly doubt it.
> 
> ...


i speak from experience
i am 53 and my functions have equalled out
please be slower to over reaction


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vinniebob said:


> i speak from experience
> i am 53 and my functions have equalled out
> please be slower to over reaction


So do I but about the enneagram, _not _the MBTI.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Entropic said:


> So do I but about the enneagram, _not _the MBTI.


it does
i am much more E then i was 10 years ago
i can now approach strangers, no not 5 year olds either:laughing:
am not nearly as anal retentive in social gatherings even though i still avoid them like the plague
most people that meet me do not think i am introverted at all
humans are not a concrete subject, no pun intended:kitteh:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vinniebob said:


> it does
> i am much more E then i was 10 years ago
> i can now approach strangers, no not 5 year olds either:laughing:
> am not nearly as anal retentive in social gatherings even though i still avoid them like the plague
> ...


...

I am making it clear that I am expressing thoughts about the enneagram, so why do you bring up the MBTI letter dichotomy? How are the two even remotely related here?


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Yes, because the quote is about type 8, not 6. 8s view themselves as being against or moving against the world, that the world is imposing itself upon them and they have to fight back.


Well if a person feels as if backed against the wall, a great many will feel the urge to fight back. That isn't common only to 8's -- probably more common though! 



> Not sure what the difference is. Bum, bastard, asshole.


So it doesn't matter -- never mind.



> 8s care about truth, especially their perception of truth.


I care about the facts, admittedly we all perceive what we believe to be true, it isn't always true though. A simple example would be misinterpreting a person as being rather ungrateful -- they might be but don't show it well or simply don't say "thank you" -- I've been accused of this so I try to make sure I thank people.



> Their prejudice is that they think they view the world objectively and more honestly than everyone else.


I suppose everybody has fallen prey to this...



> The quote is about type 8, not 5 or 6.


I'm aware


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RobynC said:


> Well if a person feels as if backed against the wall, a great many will feel the urge to fight back. That isn't common only to 8's -- probably more common though!


Well, this is a big difference between 6 and 8 which is that 6s fear of being backed against the wall, they fear of losing everything because they haven't lost it yet; 8s already know they've lost it all and thus got nothing to lose and you are already at the absolute bottom of society's pecking order and you are intent on making you sure aren't going to stay there. There is a strive towards to get what you want, to get it back, to acquire the things (usually innocence) that you perceived yourself to have lost:



> I see a ghost in a photograph
> I feel that wave come up under me
> I see myself in that other half
> I feel that pain pull me underneath
> ...


Goes back to rejection vs attachment triad too. Attachment types are afraid of losing their connection with humanity and society. Rejection triad think they already lost it and are working towards to either hold on to what they have or regain what they lost. 



> I care about the facts, admittedly we all perceive what we believe to be true, it isn't always true though. A simple example would be misinterpreting a person as being rather ungrateful -- they might be but don't show it well or simply don't say "thank you" -- I've been accused of this so I try to make sure I thank people.


This is very foreign and contrary to 8 logic and the 8 version of truth. 8 truth is more about that your needs, your desires, your wants, your pain, your story, your life, your right to be, will be heard. People _will _recognize you, they _will _acknowledge you. No matter what it takes, you will make sure people are going to know that you exist. Your existence is not going to be denied any further. It's a gut logic approach to the world. 



> I suppose everybody has fallen prey to this...


Sure, but only 8s will be neurotic about it and will state their version of the truth over that of others'. This is why they are sometimes deemed as antisocial and the like, because 8s get so focused on their own version that they deny the rights of others' at the expense of those people's feelings, and how their anger makes them push over those other versions:







8s decide what truth is and then stick to their guns and refuse to back down from that position and will assert it as the most true perspective at all times. You cannot fight and push forward for your version to be true if you also recognize that of other versions or suffer from self-doubt that your version may not be the most valid or important one.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Well, this is a big difference between 6 and 8 which is that 6s fear of being backed against the wall, they fear of losing everything because they haven't lost it yet; 8s already know they've lost it all and thus got nothing to lose and you are already at the absolute bottom of society's pecking order and you are intent on making you sure aren't going to stay there.


A lot of people in such a situation would adopt the mentality that they've got nothing to lose and realize that they can pretty much do whatever they wish as no punishment is worse. Eights may be more vulnerable to this mentality admittedly, and the inertia and force of will could cause them to push right to the top and never feel they have enough and keep on pushing.



> There is a strive towards to get what you want, to get it back, to acquire the things (usually innocence) that you perceived yourself to have lost:


Innocence?



> Goes back to rejection vs attachment triad too. Attachment types are afraid of losing their connection with humanity and society.


What are 1's and 8's?



> This is very foreign and contrary to 8 logic and the 8 version of truth. 8 truth is more about that your needs, your desires, your wants, your pain, your story, your life, your right to be, will be heard.


You mean the right to have your needs addressed and respected?

My definition of truth is "what is".



> Sure, but only 8s will be neurotic about it and will state their version of the truth over that of others'. This is why they are sometimes deemed as antisocial and the like, because 8s get so focused on their own version that they deny the rights of others' at the expense of those people's feelings, and how their anger makes them push over those other versions


Basically they believe something's right and rarely change from that position; they then just continue to push for what they want and flatten anybody that gets in the way.



>


I think Ramsey is a dick... admittedly I would be ticked off if a person was cooking with spoiled food if fresh food was available.



> 8s decide what truth is and then stick to their guns and refuse to back down from that position and will assert it as the most true perspective at all times.


And the more you press against them the more they press back if for no other reason than to batter the other person under? I would assume the only way to persuade a person of this type otherwise would be to kind of use various indirect approaches than head-on attacks?

It would not be illogical that if somebody was able to outmaneuver the eight and make him look like a stubborn idiot, it would result in an angry outburst and retaliation.



> You cannot fight and push forward for your version to be true if you also recognize that of other versions or suffer from self-doubt that your version may not be the most valid or important one.


This is a battle of wills and only mine counts...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RobynC said:


> A lot of people in such a situation would adopt the mentality that they've got nothing to lose and realize that they can pretty much do whatever they wish as no punishment is worse. Eights may be more vulnerable to this mentality admittedly, and the inertia and force of will could cause them to push right to the top and never feel they have enough and keep on pushing.


I don't understand what you are trying to say. What do you mean that a lot of people would adopt such a mentality? Take two people in exactly the same life situation, a 6 and an 8. For clarity's sake, let's say they have marital problems and run the risk of divorce and they are very unhappy together. 

Now, the 6 would be scared of being divorced. They would be scared of the consequences of divorce. Their thought patterns would go in the lines of, if they leave me, how will I manage? What about our kids (if any)? What about our home? What will I do with that? Where am I going to go without them? How am I going to survive? This married life is all I know. What about my work? What will my coworkers think of me now? My family? They will think I'm some useless person. I can't even keep a proper marriage. All my efforts to create a perfect life. Why does everyone have it so much easier than I have? It's not fair, all successful people manage so much better than I. No one has to struggle this much as I have to get so little happiness in return. And how am I going to tell our kids? There's no way I will dare to tell the kids! Everyone's going to leave me and I'll be all alone.

Notice the search and seeking for security, looking for what's true and stable. 

Now compared to an 8 in exactly the same situation (admittedly my example is likely colored by my wing). They wouldn't think like the above at all. Instead, their thought patterns would go in the lines of, I am going to divorce them. I don't want to stay in this shit anymore. They treat me like trash, don't respect my needs and boundaries. This isn't worth staying for, when all it does is making me (and our kids, if any) unhappy. I fucking tried to make this work and they aren't working with me. I care to this degree and this is all I get? This is outside of my responsibility now. I am not going to fix shit that's broken to this degree. I put my effort into this and I get nothing back. I'm out of here. They can go fuck themselves. I'm gonna file in the divorce papers the first thing I do tomorrow morning. I'm going to take the kids with me and leave this hellhole. We are better off without that life-sucking vampire. They'll know what I really think when they will find the papers on the kitchen table. 



> Innocence?


8s feel like they lost their innocence. 



> What are 1's and 8's?


1 is frustration triad, 8 rejection triad. 



> You mean the right to have your needs addressed and respected?


No. That my being, the very person I am, is acknowledged to exist. Having your needs addressed and respected is a part of that. 



> My definition of truth is "what is".


I have to disagree. Intellectually perhaps, but otherwise 6s have an idea of truth being equal to that which is stable and ever-lasting. That is really true. True happiness for example, is the kind of happiness that is when there is no foreseen pain involved. It's the kind of happiness that lasts forever. 

For 8, truth is more about calling a spade a spade and sticking to that perception. Look at the Gordon Ramsay clip again. He thinks there's a problem and he calls it out as he sees it. In one scene he says, "_You_ are the problem". That's what I mean with 8s calling out the truth to be "what is". 8s point to real problems, actual concrete errors. 6s think of _potential_ problems. Look at the examples above about the 6 and 8 thinking about their marital problems again. Look at how the 6 keeps thinking in terms of "what if" scenarios. None of those things have actually happened yet, so much of their thinking goes to being preoccupied thinking about what will happen so they can be prepared. Compare to the 8, who spends no time thinking about "what ifs". Instead, the 8 is very focused on taking action and solving a known problem that is actually existing in the present moment i.e. we have marital problems, and has found a specific solution to the problem i.e. divorce. 



> Basically they believe something's right and rarely change from that position; they then just continue to push for what they want and flatten anybody that gets in the way.


Yes.



> I think Ramsey is a dick... admittedly I would be ticked off if a person was cooking with spoiled food if fresh food was available.


Perhaps he is a dick, but look at why he's a dick; his needless belligerence and aggression is hurting other people. He sees a problem (a person is cooking with spoiled food) and calls them out for it. They are at fault, they need to be blamed and take responsibility for their own weaknesses and shortcomings. He does it because he cares for the people eating out there in the restaurant, innocent people. They didn't ask to eat spoiled food. They are victims of circumstance. In Ramsay's eyes, he's setting things straight, making the world just and fair again. He has noticed a problem with power e.g. bad chefs serving people bad food. Chefs have a position of power over the people they serve because a lot of these people don't know what goes into their dish. They just come there to eat food and have a good time. He wants to rectify that. The problem is that he's so narrowed down on this perception of reality that he gets unresponsive and can't listen to the people he's yelling at. It's his version, his concept of how to serve and cook food, that is being enforced upon the world. He's not listening to what the other chefs are saying to him, being thoughtful and considerate of their limitations and pitfalls. Instead he states his perception to be objectively true. That's the error of type 8. 

I just came across this image which exemplifies this aspect of type 8 very well (it's hilariously spot on and sad lol):













> And the more you press against them the more they press back if for no other reason than to batter the other person under? I would assume the only way to persuade a person of this type otherwise would be to kind of use various indirect approaches than head-on attacks?


What do you mean?



> It would not be illogical that if somebody was able to outmaneuver the eight and make him look like a stubborn idiot, it would result in an angry outburst and retaliation.


8s don't care whether they look like stubborn idiots to begin with. They don't care about how others see them all that much. If someone would call out Ramsay for acting like a stubborn idiot in that situation, he'd just laugh and brush it off. He'd say something like, "Yeah, you're fucking right, I am a stubborn idiot" and then proceed to keep blaming the other party anyway. I'm pretty sure, based on my perception of Ramsay, that he'd probably make it into a mocking word game where he'd turn it on the other person. Anyway, 8s already see themselves as bad people and when they are particularly pissed off and unhealthy like Ramsay is in these clips, they don't give a fuck if people think they are bad people or coming across like being bad, because they already think that they are. Much of their behavior is motivated by the very fact. If you would call them out for being bad in that situation, it would just validate their own self-perception and they may even take some pride in it. 8s like being bad people and ruffle people's feathers that way, and may go out of their way to make sure people know that they are. 


> This is a battle of wills and only mine counts...


Yes.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropic said:


> I don't understand what you are trying to say. What do you mean that a lot of people would adopt such a mentality?


Yes



> Now, the 6 would be scared of being divorced. They would be scared of the consequences of divorce. Their thought patterns would go in the lines of, if they leave me, how will I manage?


I know how to live on my own...



> What about our kids (if any)?


That could be a problem -- the kid would be caught in the middle and would probably have negative psychological experiences. The question is how the spouse acts, even if I could be civil they might not be and people get really bent out of one spouse knocking the other unconscious to end the argument.



> What about our home? What will I do with that?


Uh, generally the woman keeps the house. If I was in the guy's shoes that would be different... I'd lose a house, which would be particularly unfair if I was the one who bought it. I guess the attitude would be to try and get a cut-throat bastard of a divorce attorney to either try and keep the house, or try and force the other person to spend rent money on it so I can basically either get some of what I put in back -- and depending on how much I dislike the person -- to basically drain them.



> Where am I going to go without them?


I can think of a bunch of places I can go ranging from a hotel, my mom's, technically I know how to hunt, camp, and hike.



> How am I going to survive?


Use existing money to buy food, order takeout, go a day or two without eating, hunt something.



> What about my work?


I'm self employed so that's not a major concern. Plus I probably would not tell them if I did not have to.



> What will my coworkers think of me now?


Well, I'm self employed so that wouldn't be an issue...



> My family?


Depends on the spouse!



> And how am I going to tell our kids? There's no way I will dare to tell the kids!


I think they'd figure it out: Regardless, I'm generally pretty direct and I probably would have just told them what was going on.



> Notice the search and seeking for security, looking for what's true and stable.


I get the point



> Now compared to an 8 in exactly the same situation (admittedly my example is likely colored by my wing). They wouldn't think like the above at all. Instead, their thought patterns would go in the lines of, I am going to divorce them. I don't want to stay in this shit anymore. They treat me like trash, don't respect my needs and boundaries. This isn't worth staying for, when all it does is making me (and our kids, if any) unhappy.


Uh, depending on the spouse I would have probably thought this way: Regardless, I would probably not want to ruin the life of the kids, but depending on the circumstances I'm going to leave.



> I am not going to fix shit that's broken to this degree. I put my effort into this and I get nothing back. I'm out of here.


Sometimes you have to know when to walk away -- or run (depends on why you are leaving!)



> They can go fuck themselves. I'm gonna file in the divorce papers the first thing I do tomorrow morning. I'm going to take the kids with me and leave this hellhole. We are better off without that life-sucking vampire. They'll know what I really think when they will find the papers on the kitchen table.


Uh that just sounds like a lot of black people I know (frankly, I generally get along well with black people -- I don't know really why, but I often do, go figure).



> 8s feel like they lost their innocence.


Yeah, but I'm not sure what that means. When I think of innocence, I think of a person who's not guilty of anything, or not deserving of punishment.



> 1 is frustration triad, 8 rejection triad.


So 1's are frustrated at the world, and 8's feel rejected by it?



> No. That my being, the very person I am, is acknowledged to exist.


So it's like "By being so awesome and being me, I command respect?" I know people like that!



> Having your needs addressed and respected is a part of that.


I think having one's needs addressed and respected is important regardless of thinking that you're the awesome... 



> I have to disagree. Intellectually perhaps, but otherwise 6s have an idea of truth being equal to that which is stable and ever-lasting.


Actually that's not entirely true: There are a lot of things that can change, and nothing really seems to last forever. In fact it seems even the universe won't last forever.

Admittedly, most 6's want stability in their lives: But I would assume most people would.



> True happiness for example, is the kind of happiness that is when there is no foreseen pain involved. It's the kind of happiness that lasts forever.


Nothing is painless...



> For 8, truth is more about calling a spade a spade and sticking to that perception.


If I was found to be wrong, with proper and reasonable proof, I'd probably accept it. I think 8's and 1's have a greater sense of certainty that their own positions are right and have more momentum in their aggression than 6's will.



> Look at the Gordon Ramsay clip again. He thinks there's a problem and he calls it out as he sees it.


He was complaining about a lot of things...



> In one scene he says, "_You_ are the problem". That's what I mean with 8s calling out the truth to be "what is".


What he perceives it to be...



> 8s point to real problems, actual concrete errors. 6s think of _potential_ problems.


Uh, I kind of can do both...



> Look at the examples above about the 6 and 8 thinking about their marital problems again. Look at how the 6 keeps thinking in terms of "what if" scenarios.


That I sort of get at... but some 8's aren't bad at seeing a few steps ahead (particularly the NT's and NF's)



> None of those things have actually happened yet, so much of their thinking goes to being preoccupied thinking about what will happen so they can be prepared. Compare to the 8, who spends no time thinking about "what ifs". Instead, the 8 is very focused on taking action and solving a known problem that is actually existing in the present moment i.e. we have marital problems, and has found a specific solution to the problem i.e. divorce.


Even when one springs into action immediately, you're probably thinking of how to react to potential ways the other person will act/react whether you're consciously thinking about it or instinctively. In a fight, you're probably going to figure the person will try and fight a certain way.



> He sees a problem (a person is cooking with spoiled food) and calls them out for it. They are at fault, they need to be blamed and take responsibility for their own weaknesses and shortcomings.


1's would do this too... they might react more angrily.



> He does it because he cares for the people eating out there in the restaurant, innocent people. They didn't ask to eat spoiled food. They are victims of circumstance.


Actually I assume he doesn't want a bad reputation for his restaurant, his standards etc.



> Instead he states his perception to be objectively true. That's the error of type 8.


TE types do this too...



> I just came across this image which exemplifies this aspect of type 8 very well (it's hilariously spot on and sad lol):


I know people like that...



> What do you mean?


The eight starts operating under the premise that they are right, and plows at you; attempting to push against them will make them push back even harder if for no other reason than to get his/her way.



> 8s don't care whether they look like stubborn idiots to begin with. They don't care about how others see them all that much.


Actually, 8's are reactive types too... people don't like being made to look like idiots. They might not care if they look like ogres (which is what you're talking about), but most people do care if they are made to look stupid and powerless...



> Anyway, 8s already see themselves as bad people


I didn't think that was the case... I just think they don't care if they are.



> Yes.


I know this mentality: I adopt it when dealing with people that I find to be unreasonable.

While we are at this, there is one major problem with the way people see the enneagram: People find out what type they are and figure "it's written in stone, I can't change". Humans are capable of learning and adapting their behavior quite a bit: Eights, while dominant types, can usually learn how to conform to the rules of society; sixes can be quite bold and courageous despite having anxiety issues, counterphobic types can learn to be less reckless once they understand why they do what they do; even three's can chill out when they realize they don't have to be perfect and they understand why they act the way they act.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RobynC said:


> Yes
> 
> I know how to live on my own...
> 
> ...


Not sure why you were trying to personally relate to how you'd solve a hypothetical scenario? I didn't write it on the basis that you were supposed to relate to it or how you were supposed to deal with it. It was just a generic way to describe the differences between how 6s and 8s approach the same problems in life, to counter your point that "everyone does that". Not really. The type bias is going to make people perceive themselves to be in very different positions even if they are dealing with exactly the same problem. Hence it's about the why, not necessarily the how. An insecure 6 may for example file in the divorce papers first too, in order to test and see whether the partner is going to sign them or not as a way to figure out whether they will stay in the relationship or not. An 8 would file the papers as an act of revenge. 



> Uh, depending on the spouse I would have probably thought this way: Regardless, I would probably not want to ruin the life of the kids, but depending on the circumstances I'm going to leave.
> 
> Sometimes you have to know when to walk away -- or run (depends on why you are leaving!)
> 
> Uh that just sounds like a lot of black people I know (frankly, I generally get along well with black people -- I don't know really why, but I often do, go figure).


But if the 8 is already thinking about filing in the divorce papers, it means that they think the life is more ruined staying in the relationship to begin with, including how it damages the kids. 



> Yeah, but I'm not sure what that means. When I think of innocence, I think of a person who's not guilty of anything, or not deserving of punishment.


Innocence in enneagram lingo is to simply perceive the world without seeing it through previous prejudice and experiences, and instead taking it in wholesomely without judgement. 



> So 1's are frustrated at the world, and 8's feel rejected by it?


Not really. It's more that 1s have standards and it frustrates them when reality doesn't conform to it, whereas 8s seek self-sufficiency, autonomy and independence and has problems with intimacy and has a tendency to reject and push people away from them as a way to avoid intimacy. 



> So it's like "By being so awesome and being me, I command respect?" I know people like that!


No idea where you got the "awesome" part from. It has nothing to do with being awesome. It's easier to state that I am who I am, and I want the world to recognize that I exist. 



> I think having one's needs addressed and respected is important regardless of thinking that you're the awesome...


Again has nothing to do with being awesome. If people don't recognize that you exist, they don't recognize that you got needs and rights to have those needs either. 



> Actually that's not entirely true: There are a lot of things that can change, and nothing really seems to last forever. In fact it seems even the universe won't last forever.
> 
> Admittedly, most 6's want stability in their lives: But I would assume most people would.


Speaking it from the 6 bias, not what's factually correct. 6s do seek that which is stable. 



> Nothing is painless...


No nothing is painless, but 6s either a) seek that which is painless or b) accept that pain is a part of being alive to the point they think pain is the only thing which is truly stable and real. 



> If I was found to be wrong, with proper and reasonable proof, I'd probably accept it. I think 8's and 1's have a greater sense of certainty that their own positions are right and have more momentum in their aggression than 6's will.





> I agree with this.
> 
> He was complaining about a lot of things...
> 
> ...


Generally speaking? No. What 6s think are real problems tend to be potential problems, what may or might happen. 8s tend to point out actual problems here and now. 



> That I sort of get at... but some 8's aren't bad at seeing a few steps ahead (particularly the NT's and NF's)


There's a difference relying on experiential understanding of how to operate in the world and thinking ahead as an Ni type. 



> Even when one springs into action immediately, *you're probably thinking of how to react to potential ways the other person will act/react whether you're consciously thinking about it or instinctively. In a fight, you're probably going to figure the person will try and fight a certain way*.


Not really. 8s aren't other-oriented like that. The bolded is what I mean when I say that 6s think of potential problems. 8s don't think about things, they act on instinct. 8s are going to focus on their own perception, and less on how others perceive things. 



> 1's would do this too... they might react more angrily.


1s as a whole, aren't very prone to outwards manifestations of anger since they think it's wrong. 



> Actually I assume he doesn't want a bad reputation for his restaurant, his standards etc.


Except none of the clips are of his restaurant but he's visiting the restaurants of others'. Again, thinking about reputation is a 6 thing. 8s aren't image-conscious like that. 



> TE types do this too...


This is not the same as Te. Te is about being factual, adhering and understanding objective logic. The objective quality of the 8 is different. 



> I know people like that...


Yeah, so if they do that a lot they are likely 8s. 



> The eight starts operating under the premise that they are right, and plows at you; attempting to push against them will make them push back even harder if for no other reason than to get his/her way.


Yes. 



> Actually, 8's are reactive types too... people don't like being made to look like idiots. They might not care if they look like ogres (which is what you're talking about),* but most people do care if they are made to look stupid and powerless...*


No, 8s don't do that, because 8s assume they are strong and able to begin with. 6s fear being made to look stupid and powerless. 8s assume they are already in power and have the power and you can't take it away from them in the first place. They already enter a fight assuming they are strong. 



> I didn't think that was the case... I just think they don't care if they are.


They don't care being bad people because they see themselves as bad people. 



> I know this mentality: I adopt it when dealing with people that I find to be unreasonable.
> 
> While we are at this, there is one major problem with the way people see the enneagram: People find out what type they are and figure "it's written in stone, I can't change". Humans are capable of learning and adapting their behavior quite a bit: Eights, while dominant types, can usually learn how to conform to the rules of society; sixes can be quite bold and courageous despite having anxiety issues, counterphobic types can learn to be less reckless once they understand why they do what they do; even three's can chill out when they realize they don't have to be perfect and they understand why they act the way they act.


I don't think anyone has expressed that types are written in stone or that people cannot change or grow? The entire reason behind the enneagram is to grow as a person.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@Entropic



> Not sure why you were trying to personally relate to how you'd solve a hypothetical scenario?


I was just trying to point out that the descriptions you are using are stereotypes. I'm a 6w5 and exhibit some of the same behavior you described (admittedly, a number of my family were 8's)


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## Zamyatin (Jun 10, 2014)

RobynC said:


> While we are at this, there is one major problem with the way people see the enneagram: People find out what type they are and figure "it's written in stone, I can't change". Humans are capable of learning and adapting their behavior quite a bit: Eights, while dominant types, can usually learn how to conform to the rules of society; sixes can be quite bold and courageous despite having anxiety issues, counterphobic types can learn to be less reckless once they understand why they do what they do; even three's can chill out when they realize they don't have to be perfect and they understand why they act the way they act.


I don't think @Entropic was saying that people don't change or that they're forever trapped by their Enneagram type. When you think of a type, the only thing that distinguishes the types from each other is a set of dysfunctional behaviors 

Here's a metaphor that might make it easier to understand. Think of vanilla ice cream, the most generic flavor of ice cream. Let's think of vanilla as the "default" ice cream. That default ice cream is made up of a bunch of ingredients like milk and sugar and vanilla flavoring in a very specific set of proportions. 

Now, there are other flavors of ice cream. There's chocolate ice cream. There's "extra vanilla-y" ice cream that has extra vanilla flavoring. There's strawberry ice cream. And so on. Since we're considering vanilla the default ice cream, these other flavors can be considered a deviation from the default. To get a different flavor, the default ingredients are changed. Maybe they put less vanilla flavoring in. Maybe they put more sugar in it. Maybe they add entirely new ingredients like strawberry flavoring or chocolate. However, in each of these flavors, something is changed from the default. Something is added or something is removed from the original vanilla recipe.

Let's make this more concrete. I'm going to invent a (probably terrible) Vanilla ice cream recipe.

*Vanilla Ice Cream (Default)*
4 cups milk
1 cup sugar
2 teaspoons vanilla flavoring

Now, let's look at a different recipe. Let's go with chocolate.

*Chocolate Ice Cream*
4 cups milk
1 1/2 cups sugar
1 teaspoon vanilla flavoring
1/2 cup chocolate powder

Again, since we've (arbitrarily) decided that vanilla is the default, every type of ice cream is a deviation from the default. If we want to talk about chocolate ice cream, we talk about what is _different_ from the default. So what's the difference between these two types of ice cream? Easy arithmetic. 

1/2 cup sugar
-1 teaspoon vanilla flavoring
1/2 cup chocolate powder

You could say chocolate ice cream is defined by having these variations; extra sugar, less vanilla, and the addition of chocolate powder.

Now let's imagine that people get sick after eating chocolate ice cream, but never get sick after eating vanilla. The logical thing would be to look at what is different in chocolate ice cream. In this case, at least one of the changes (the addition of extra sugar, the addition of chocolate, or the reduction in the amount of vanilla) would have to be responsible for the different outcome.

It's a long metaphor, but the Enneagram is built on a logic a lot like this. Enneagram writers argue that there is a hypothesized "ideal" human. This human has none of the fixations of any of the types, and behaviorally would act like all of the types were blended together. What we call a "type" is a deviation away from this ideal. Something was added or removed, and that addition or removal is the "type". A 2 gains a feeling of rejection. A 5 gains feelings of weakness and isolation. A 9 gains a feeling of insignificance. And these changes result in a "type".

A lot of people say things like "we're so much more than our types." That's absolutely correct. We are. But when people are talking about "type 3" or "type 8", they're intentionally not talking about an entire person. Instead, they're talking about what makes that type of person different from the "default".

Go back to the ice cream metaphor. If someone were to say "chocolate is different because it has extra sugar and less vanilla flavoring", it's not a logical response to say "nuh uh, that's not true, vanilla also has sugar and vanilla flavoring", because they weren't denying that, they were just contrasting chocolate with the default. Yet people do that all the time when talking about personality types. Someone, when talking about a type in the abstract, might say "6s are defined by their fear". And someone inevitably will say something like "but everybody feels fear". Yeah, that's true. But that doesn't say anything helpful, just as it isn't helpful to say that vanilla also has sugar and vanilla flavoring, because we're talking about a relative increase or decrease in fear. We're not saying that 6s are the only people that feel fear.

Everybody can act in a way outside of the definition of their type. In fact, that's what the Enneagram calls development. It's considered a good and healthy thing. Each type loses something, and becoming healthy means learning to get that back, returning us to the default. 

I completely agree that a lot of people misunderstand (or rather, misuse) the Enneagram. A lot of people have trouble finding authentic identities of their own, and to compensate they latch onto a "type". Sometimes they even exaggerate their type because they feel this makes them more authentic. Someone might find out that they're a 4, and then think "wow, so I'm a type that's moody and withdrawn and emotional" and then use that as an excuse to be sullen and to hide from people. If someone says they shouldn't do that, they'd respond "I can't help it, I'm a 4". As you noted, that's bullshit and completely at cross-ends with what the Enneagram was intended to do.


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

Zamyatin said:


> Here's a metaphor that might make it easier to understand. Think of vanilla ice cream, the most generic flavor of ice cream. Let's think of vanilla as the "default" ice cream. That default ice cream is made up of a bunch of ingredients like milk and sugar and vanilla flavoring in a very specific set of proportions.
> 
> Now, there are other flavors of ice cream. There's chocolate ice cream. There's "extra vanilla-y" ice cream that has extra vanilla flavoring. There's strawberry ice cream. And so on. Since we're considering vanilla the default ice cream, these other flavors can be considered a deviation from the default. To get a different flavor, the default ingredients are changed. Maybe they put less vanilla flavoring in. Maybe they put more sugar in it. Maybe they add entirely new ingredients like strawberry flavoring or chocolate. However, in each of these flavors, something is changed from the default. Something is added or something is removed from the original vanilla recipe.
> 
> ...


That's sort of the vibe I get from the personality type. I have a lot of 6, 1, and 8 traits. I'm 6w5 So/Sx...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

RobynC said:


> @Entropic
> 
> I was just trying to point out that the descriptions you are using are stereotypes. I'm a 6w5 and exhibit some of the same behavior you described (admittedly, a number of my family were 8's)


Actually, the description I wrote is taken from personal experience and then detached to fit into a new context. I wouldn't consider it stereotype more so than that the stereotype I made is a stereotype that does, to one degree or another, apply to all 6s. Enneagram types can be compared to colors, for example. Each color has a range or a scale of lighter to darker. For simplicity's sake, say that light and moving towards white is healthy, and moving towards black is unhealthy. Here white would represent type purity; it's the kind of purity you attain when you are absolutely without prejudice and embody the highest levels of human development. Few people would embody this in a lifetime. Why white as the ideal here? Because white is not a color of itself, but yet represents all colors. This means that any type can embody white as a color because if you lighten a color enough, it will eventually turn white. Similarly, the same for black, if black would be the absolute lowest embodiment of human personality. 

However, ultimately, everyone is a variation of green, blue or red. These are base colors. We can mix these colors and blend and get variations of them, and an enneagram type is the same. We have a baseline color, blue, green or red. On average, if you take certain people of a type, you will find that they best represent say, the color green and variations of green. Everyone is different so everyone has a different hue of green, but they are still undeniably green. 

So when I was writing that description, I wrote it on the basis of that this is a generic color of green. It is not one specific kind of green but it is the kind of green you get if you take all these variations of green and then blend them together into one hue of green. You get a green that doesn't necessarily match any other green out there and may also have tints of other colors in it, but yet it represents the greenness of all known variations of green that we have. The problem with your assertion is that you claim that because you are this particular hue of green and you find parts of what I wrote of all the types to be in your particular hue, it discredits the more generic or base greenness that you come up with when you take all other greens and mix it into one kind of green. 

Enneagram isn't so much about behavior in itself, as much as it is about certain habitual patterns that are formed due to a specific psychological bias. So if you are a specific hue of blue, you may have both some red and green in you in order to become that particular hue, but it does not necessarily make you green. Your baseline color is still blue, not green, and it make you distinct and separate from each other.


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