# Who's the most natural athlete?



## thor odinson

David Keirsey describes artisans as the temperament with the natural ability to excel at any of the arts including the athletic arts?

I've always been fascinated by ESTP vs ISTP comparison. Which is naturally more gifted. If you look at the greatest players of all time in their respective fields it seems to come out as ISTP i.e. michael jordan in basketball, Tiger Woods golf and I suppose Bruce Lee in martial arts etc.

David Keirsey in one of his articles posts that ISTP's have the fasted hand eye coordination and that they are the masters of tools whether those tools are external i.e. basketball, tennis raquet, or apart of themselves like their arms and legs which would include Bruce Lee in this category. But then I would have assumed that as far as natural athletic ability goes and I'm only purely talking natural ability such as hand eye coordination, I'd have thought those with Extraverted Sensing as their dominant function would be the most naturally gifted which would seem to favour the ESTP over the ISTP and possibly even invite ESFP into the conversation. I know ISTP's secondary function is extraverted sensing and even your secondary function is pretty useful and it serves to compliment the first function, Id just personally assumed to have thought Extraverted Sensing as a primary function gives the more natural advantage because it requires even less energy. Any thought from any type is welcome althought am curious to hear from ESTP's and ISTP's


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## Wheelie

You do marital arts don't you?!


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## Stand Alone

thor odinson said:


> But then I would have assumed that as far as natural athletic ability goes and I'm only purely talking natural ability such as hand eye coordination, I'd have thought those with Extraverted Sensing as their dominant function would be the most naturally gifted which would seem to favour the ESTP over the ISTP and possibly even invite ESFP into the conversation.


That makes sense to me. But xSTPs are often praised for their ability to think tactically. I think Fi would only affect athleticism in terms of motivation.


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## thor odinson

Willy said:


> You do marital arts don't you?!


Nah I don't, always wanted to, especially aesthetic martial arts like kung fu/wushu, but mamma wouldn't sign the permission slip lol. Nah I have fairly ambitious folks who wanted to go 'where the money is' so I fell into tennis, nevertheless I love the sport and am equally competitive as anyone out there. Fi is always considered a soft function, but it allows one to know what you value and on the field there's only one thing I value "WINNING". It's one of the major topics of conversation that I have with SP's and am equally delighted and passionate in talking to them or even a fellow intuitive who may provide a more insightful approach. I heard that shadow functions are all but useless but can surface under times of great stress, so I have been looking for ways to improve my Se which is like my 7th out of 8 functions sigh.. Challenging but nevertheless not impossible and I've found it's definitely helped. My brother is an SP, not sure which one and I've always found but never really thought about the fact that even when we would see the same shot coming he'd scream out "RUN" much earlier then I would and in tennis 1/5th of second later is 1/5th of a second too late with balls flying at 100km+ per hour and you've got to cover court like 5m wide and 7m long. We would both see that for example, a slice shot short and wide crosscourt would be just that, short and wide, but he'd be able to detect and follow the minute changes just like "tobey maguire dodging flash thompsons punch in spiderman" in the balls rotation and flight path, enabling almost surgical precision in just how short it woud bounce, how much it would skid through, when would be the best time to leave, what angle to cut it off and how much room to leave so the slice ball doesn't skid into your body forcing you to hit from an awkward position or an error outright. All this sensory information processed in such a split second. INCREDIBLE. I'd often stand in front of mirror looking at the technique of my shots, how is my elblow, how much is my head turned and when I'd ask him to show me his technique and explain each component he'd just simply say "I don't know, it just comes to in the midst of play and kinda falls in place, I don't really think about so I don't know how it looks like". It's a reaction not an planned execution.


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## cocopuff

I wouldn't say ISTP's are naturally gifted with special hand-eye coordination skills. Not to split hairs but they (we) do have a preference for using them and the skills become enhanced by a lifetime of regular use. Natural athletes do exist but I think the truly great ones also enjoy practicing their sport and honing all the skills involved. And all of the preferences of the ISTP are ideal for this.


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## thor odinson

cocopuff said:


> I wouldn't say ISTP's are naturally gifted with special hand-eye coordination skills. Not to split hairs but they (we) do have a preference for using them and the skills become enhanced by a lifetime of regular use. Natural athletes do exist but I think the truly great ones also enjoy practicing their sport and honing all the skills involved. And all of the preferences of the ISTP are ideal for this.


Ah the classic nature vs nurture debate. It's true Practice makes Perfect, so you don't think ISTP's have natural hand eye the way say a RATIONAL temperament or NT has an advantage in the Math Science fields. In high school I averaged an A in math even in my senior years but man I sure as hell had to work my ass of to get it. My INTJ/P mate (one of the two) could do in 1hr what it took me to do in 3hr. He even got the highest year end score of our school in our final year and he did Physics, Chemistry, Advanced Math and Specialist Advanced Math. No doubt he studied, but it came easy to him. So sometimes I think you don't just become good at something because your interested in it, but rather, your interested in something because your good at it, because it comes natural to you. I think both apply to an extent. 

Oh and one more thing if you belive "natural athletes do exist" do you believe they are associated to a temperament like ARTISAN's (SP) or do you believe they may orginate from any type, an if any type do you believe their more likely to be a certain type more than others i.e. say SP's more then NF's NT's and SJ's?


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## alionsroar

(Generalisations not referring to real life athletes, ISTPs, ESTPs) I imagine the ISTP's better Ti/Ni gives them the advantage, it helps to know intuitively where to shove their hand at the right moment - a judgement made by a better developed Ti. The ESTPs have better Fe but that is used much less in sports. Se is good for taking in all that data but good Ni is also needed to anticipate and plot what is going to happen next.

I'm an ISTP and I always ran away from the ball in primary school, so I never really developed any ball skills.

I'm not willing to guess whether "natural athletes" are more one type or another. I'd have to look at some data on it first.


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## Vtile

Ok this is just my opinion for that question about natural athletes and MBTI types. I would see that there isn't any one type that produces a good athletes since there is such a wide diversity of "sports" out there. One type might be naturally in better stands to develop top athlete in that particular sport and then other type in different sport. I also think that every type have their pros and cons on sports too, there might be a some balance difference there tho.
Bigger question in my mind would be ..is the person with really balanced type (50-50-50-50%) better than person with type of 100-100-100-100%. But again these are just my opinions / thoughts and with my lack of knowledge of MBTI or typing psychology in general I wouldn't give them too much value


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## Emerson

I'd go, ISTP. My friend is 5'6 and 170lbs if he's lucky n he plays international standard American Football.


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## Stand Alone

Willy said:


> You do marital arts don't you?!


Hey now, that's between him and Mrs. Thor.


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## etherealuntouaswithin

ESTP's.Outright competition and expansive, aggressive tactics towards victory.


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## thor odinson

Stand Alone said:


> Hey now, that's between him and Mrs. Thor.


lol you sly dog you

and 

ah touche lol


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## thor odinson

A lot of interesting opinions and I thank you all for them. I was intrigued by a post earlier that says Ti combined with Ni seeks to almost tell the athlete where to move next and or where to put their hand or where the ball would bounce and that Se only gives you awareness about all the relevant info but Ti and Ni filter through that info and almost act like a deciding mechanism. As you may have largely gathered I hail from a tennis background and for me as far as the four best tennis players in the world go I'd perosnally type them after following their demeanor and reconciling what I've observed from their behaviour and playing styles with what I know about MBTI or temperament:

1. Rafael Nadal: ISTP 
2. Novak Djokovic: ESFP or ESTP
3. Roger Federer: ESFP or ESTP (definitely got the most aesthetic technqiue on just about every shot ever hit, the most fancy or creative with his shots given his shortened or flick swings that require split second timing and the repeated display of such behaviour. May not be the best player any more but definitely over the last 6 or 7 years has shown the best hand eye).
4. Andy Murray: ISTP

Previous Players to me and what I perceive their type as:

1. Pete Sampras: ISTP
2. Andre Agassi: ESFP or ESTP

Bjorn Borg or "Ice Borg": ISTP
Jimmy Connors: Definitely ESTP 
John Mcenroe: Definitely ESTP
Rod Laver: ISTP

Feel free to post your own opinions regarding players from sports that you closely follow. Thanks for all the input so far, it's been intriguing to say the least


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## alionsroar

Forget what I said about Ni. I'm not so sure that much Ni is needed. Maybe, while training it's good as you analyse how to improve what you are doing.

But when you are actually playing and in the moment, all that is needed is very good Se and very good Ti. The ESTP who spends more time using Fe and the the ISTP who uses more Ni won't be very good athletes.
The ESTP, being extraverted might be more inclined to practice their sport... maybe it depends on enneagram as well.


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## thor odinson

pc3000 said:


> Forget what I said about Ni. I'm not so sure that much Ni is needed. Maybe, while training it's good as you analyse how to improve what you are doing.
> 
> But when you are actually playing and in the moment, all that is needed is very good Se and very good Ti. The ESTP who spends more time using Fe and the the ISTP who uses more Ni won't be very good athletes.
> The ESTP, being extraverted might be more inclined to practice their sport... maybe it depends on enneagram as well.


mm.... interesting, about ennegram I personally have know no clue, it's why mine's not up, I've found that MBTI and David Keirsey Temperament Sorter are much better than any other personality test at giving a specific profile that suits you and not anyone else compared to the generic personality tests i.e. Type A Type B Type C etc so I never bothered to look further than these too. As to your recent post seeing as though you quoted Se and Ti as being the two essential characteristics you need I'm curious to hear your opinion and those of others as to which of the two orders is preferrable:

1. Dominant Se Auxillary Ti

or conversely

2. Dominant Ti Auxillary Se


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## alionsroar

I don't know. I'd say Se-Ti but I'm making it up which annoys me. I don't really like coming up with theories that I can't validate/invalidate. But I reckon being _very _aware of your surroundings would help.


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## thor odinson

pc3000 said:


> I don't know. I'd say Se-Ti but I'm making it up which annoys me. I don't really like coming up with theories that I can't validate/invalidate. But I reckon being _very _aware of your surroundings would help.


Yeah that's true, I certainly understanding the frustration behind debating theories even though I'm intuitive. Even we need our down time and time to re-immerse ourselves in the simplistic world of concrete materiality and away from the complex web of intellectual theory or emotions. Refering to one of your previous posts I believe you identified yourself as an ISTP (correct me if I'm wrong), so to put it bluntly I guess theorectical stuff "really does your head in even more than us". But whilst I empathise, a lot of the stuff on personality cafe remains just that an untested or untestable theory, sometimes turning into pointless albeit hilarious grudge matches as two individuals seemingly rant off and berate each as if it would actually accomplish anything even if they did win lol big deal the other party's probably on the other side of the world. Well it looks to me like this thread's just about wrapped up, thanks all for your input, I might tune in some time in the not to distant to see how things pan out


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## alionsroar

I don't mind theories as long as I can find a use for them,I am more of a sensor.
I'm just not sure of the implications of knowing which types might be better natural athletes? So that's why I don't want to take it seriously. Or maybe I don't like the idea that some types are better athletes.
(but this thread isn't about me anyway)


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## firedell

The only compliment I have ever gotten sports wise, is I have a good throwing arm.


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## thor odinson

firedell said:


> The only compliment I have ever gotten sports wise, is I have a good throwing arm.


Curious to hear from an ISFP, I've pretty much talked about all the other SP's except you guys, I always assumed you had latent ability but it just never surfaced because you pursued other interests. Ofcourse this isn't an absolute position but I guess merely at best a general stereotype relative to the ESTP ISTP which are found in abundance in sports


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## Field

Not sure if any of you have delved into Sheldon somatotyping but some of the diagrams i've seen show these 4 types are generally going to make the best athletes. There are always execptions to the rule.

ESFJ
ESTP
ESFP
ESTJ


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## thor odinson

Field said:


> Not sure if any of you have delved into Sheldon somatotyping but some of the diagrams i've seen show these 4 types are generally going to make the best athletes. There are always execptions to the rule.
> 
> ESFJ
> ESTP
> ESFP
> ESTJ


Thanks for the info, will look into it.


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## Slider

You do know what "natural" means, right?

A "natural" athlete is someone who has practiced little, yet excels at whatever athletic event or sports activity he/she participates in.

Tiger Woods is not in this category.


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## thor odinson

Slider said:


> You do know what "natural" means, right?
> 
> A "natural" athlete is someone who has practiced little, yet excels at whatever athletic event or sports activity he/she participates in.
> 
> Tiger Woods is not in this category.


Considering he was on a talk show at like 3 years of age, able to putt quite well with little practice, I think he well and truly deserves to be there. Irrespective of what he's done in his personal life, he's still a great golfer.

There's no way you become one of if not "the" greatest of your sport without not just natural talent, but a lot of natural talent. Nurture alone cannot do it. Neither can nature alone, but when the two come together, they produce exponential results.

I don't think any one can debate his a naturally gifted golfer.


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## Field

thor odinson said:


> Thanks for the info, will look into it.


I can't post a direct link to things yet , but you can find what i was talking about on mysomatotype.com .


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## thor odinson

Field said:


> I can't post a direct link to things yet , but you can find what i was talking about on mysomatotype.com .


If the link is related to an article on that site then there is no need. But thanks, I really appreciate the offer.

If they relate MBTI type to the three basic body types mesamorph, endomorph and ectomorph I am familiar with these types. I guess I can also see how they can relate to MBTI types if MBTI is somewhat innate.

I can imagine ESTP for example were hunters during the times of hunters and gatherers and hence would have required an athletic build. Ofcourse these being general stereotypes. NT's using there heads, being the type that was rather slim and lanky etc etc

Body type is important especially in sports like basketball, swimming and running.

But personally I myself am more interested in the neural, visual and physical phenomena that is hand eye coordination. I always saw and held people with natural hand eye coordination with high regard and envy for in my mind they possessed 'real talent.'

It's one thing to be tall and have an advantage in swimming and basketball because of that extra reach or be muscly and really fast because your thigh muscles enable you to push off the ground fast and not only propel yourself with greater intensity, but have the actual buffer to absorb that intensity.

Not that these aren't talents in themselves. But put it this way, I'm more interested in a person like Bruce Lee who has lightning reflexes or Roger Federer who has split second reactions and can still place the ball where ever he wants despite the difficulty of the shot he has to respond to, then the physical ability to run over and push aside opposing players by the all american star quarterback who for all intents and purposes seems more like a petty thug using his superior physique to intimidate and bully as opposed to the aesthetic grace of crafters like Lee and Federer.

Ofcourse this is based on steretypes, not all are like that, I certainly hope people don't find this post offensive.

I strongly suspect that hand eye coordination is linked to Se. Being aware of your surroundings in "Real Time", in rich detail, enables you to respond in kind, detect minute changes in trajectory, pace and adapt as and when it's required.


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## elissabowden

i would assume introverts would be better at individual sports and extroverts at team sports. if i look at my favorite football teams, all i see are extroverts. they have to be able to share their thoughts, and their individual time with people in order for it to all come together. not that introverts can't do this but i would think they would be more focused on themselves. 

yeah that was confusing. i'm sure you understood most of it.

but yeah, my sister is an ESFJ and i'm an ESTP and my brother is an ESFP and we're good at anything we do. i did tennis and dance and played in an orchestra in high school and never really had to practice much at it. to perfect it i did but i could see technique or a routine or hear something and automatically perform quickly and without much fault 97% of the time. my brother works hard and practices but he's just plain good at football. and my sister has always had a great eye for tennis and track. we just pick up on things very quickly i think.


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## thor odinson

elissabowden said:


> i would assume introverts would be better at individual sports and extroverts at team sports. if i look at my favorite football teams, all i see are extroverts. they have to be able to share their thoughts, and their individual time with people in order for it to all come together. not that introverts can't do this but i would think they would be more focused on themselves.
> 
> yeah that was confusing. i'm sure you understood most of it.
> 
> but yeah, my sister is an ESFJ and i'm an ESTP and my brother is an ESFP and we're good at anything we do. i did tennis and dance and played in an orchestra in high school and never really had to practice much at it. to perfect it i did but i could see technique or a routine or hear something and automatically perform quickly and without much fault 97% of the time. my brother works hard and practices but he's just plain good at football. and my sister has always had a great eye for tennis and track. we just pick up on things very quickly i think.


Thank you for the post, it wasn't confusing in the least bit, quite clear actually


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## maoie

In my experience the ISTP will perform better in sports than ESTP´s. Usually they are extremely good at learning the technical skills required in any sports. And I believe this is due to their Ti, which enables them to master any technique to a point of perfection beyond any other type. The ESTP on the other hand enjoy sports, the competition, and being in motion, but lacks the amount of concentration of the ISTP that is necessary to fully understand and execute the technical aspects of sports.


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## thor odinson

maoie said:


> In my experience the ISTP will perform better in sports than ESTP´s. Usually they are extremely good at learning the technical skills required in any sports. And I believe this is due to their Ti, which enables them to master any technique to a point of perfection beyond any other type. The ESTP on the other hand enjoy sports, the competition, and being in motion, but lacks the amount of concentration of the ISTP that is necessary to fully understand and execute the technical aspects of sports.


That's probably the most insightful response I've gotten so far. Thank you. I was searching for a clear cut "possibility" as to how the two were different, but I couldnt quite put my finger on it.


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## pericles

maoie said:


> In my experience the ISTP will perform better in sports than ESTP´s. Usually they are extremely good at learning the technical skills required in any sports. And I believe this is due to their Ti, which enables them to master any technique to a point of perfection beyond any other type. The ESTP on the other hand enjoy sports, the competition, and being in motion, but lacks the amount of concentration of the ISTP that is necessary to fully understand and execute the technical aspects of sports.


Agreed. With the possible exception of boxing, I think an Se-dom would have an advantage on that.


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## Black Ronin

It believe Ti determines how your body has to move and Se tries to follow that command as closely as possible. An ESTP would be initially better at a sport, because he can use his senses better, but eventually an ISTP will become better, because he is mastering the system.



pericles said:


> Agreed. With the possible exception of boxing, I think an Se-dom would have an advantage on that.


 In martial arts reflexes, quick, coördinated movements and spotting an opening are very important. However, they are not the only skills of value. Reading your opponent, striking at an unexpected angle and improvising a combo (using your system) are equally important.


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## Digger Blue

The World War I Ace of Aces was the German Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen, alias The Red Baron. I suspect he was ISTP, and was "one with the machine" to achieve so many kills. 
Digger blue


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## liza_200

I _think_ ESTPs are best at this.


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## MuChApArAdOx

Hum, probably the person who has the most interest in physical activity. It isn't related with type, sorry.


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## Agent Blackout

I don't really like stereotypes, but sometimes they match up with repeated observations.
That being said, I feel SPs got this in the bag.


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## Black Ronin

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Hum, probably the person who has the most interest in physical activity. It isn't related with type, sorry.


 Do you think "interest in physical activity" is unrelated to type?


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## MuChApArAdOx

Black Ronin said:


> Do you think "interest in physical activity" is unrelated to type?


Absolutely.....


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## Black Ronin

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Absolutely.....


Interest in physical activity is a motivation. There could be several different reasons for this motivation, but they are all emotional. These emotions are sometimes caused by logical reasons. For example, the logical reason _"I need to exercise regularly to stay in good shape"_ causes the emotion _"fulfillment"_ if your reasoning follows with actions.

Different types have different drives. We both agree on that, right? Why can't one function have stronger reasons then other functions to exercise? Are you saying Ti, Fi, Ne and Se all have the same motivations and strength of motivation to exercise?

EDIT: Grammar


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## MuChApArAdOx

Black Ronin said:


> Interest in physical activity is a motivation. There could be several different reasons for this motivation, but they are all emotional. These emotions are sometimes caused by logical reasons. For example, the logical reason _"I need to exercise regularly to stay in good shape"_ causes the emotion _"fulfillment"_ if your reasoning follows with actions.
> 
> Different types have different drives. We both agree on that, right? Why can't one function have stronger reasons then other functions to exercise? Are you saying Ti, Fi, Ne and Se all have the motivations and strength of motivation to exercise?


I'm not convinced that functions have anything to do with motivations for physical exercise. For example if someone is depressed, ( which can be any type ) they are less likely to be motivated to do anything physical. As an ENFP i love the outdoors, camping, hiking, mountain climbing etc. My INTJ husband equally enjoys the adventure with me. My INTP brother is extremely motivated by physical activity. So far this is 3 completely different types, with different functions. We all equally love getting out and being active. So yes, i stand by what i said the first time, its not type related. I realize that there is a stereotype that ISTP are more physical active than other types, i don't buy into that. 

I can't answer if functions can play a part in physically activity, as i know too many active people of different types who equally enjoy it.


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## sagacity

I started to notice my natural hand eye co-ordination as I got older, and it made me think about my childhood. 
I grew up playing in our street constantly; football, soccer, cricket, baseball, tennis, tag, spotlight, capture-the-flag, jumping on trampolines, jumping fences, riding bikes, rollerblades and skateboards.
So it's completely understandable that I'm co-ordinated and a natural sportsman.


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## haushinka

Stand Alone said:


> That makes sense to me. But xSTPs are often praised for their ability to think tactically. I think Fi would only affect athleticism in terms of motivation.


True.


Though I'm still pretty skilled 

I like to perform sports freely. Don't like to be a part of any official association. I usually try to find other ways to do it.
Lust is my motivation.


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## Inveniet

I do martial arts and have always found it relatively easy to learn the physical moves.
I have a good connection with my body.
If it have anything with Se to do I have no idea.


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## Digger Blue

*Digger Blue, Of Course!*


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## Adasta

ESTPs and ISFJs.

The former for brute force and the latter for extensive training and team commitment.

Obviously others are good too, but those two types always stand out to me in team sports.


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## kwint

I agree with the ISTx being better at individual sports. They can practice by themselves and use their Se and Ti to critically analyze their movements. Good examples are fighters, gymnasts, even fighter pilots. 

ESTx is probably going to be better at team sports because of the communication aspect. I can't comment too much on this as I haven't explored too much into their personalities but I would think that winning as a team is very fulfilling.

The ST combo just seems to lead to an inherent ability to grasp the concepts of how to apply the knowledge of physics to real life applications. I would think that the SF would go with gut instincts and what feels right, but the end goal is more than likely the same. And yes, their drive is a very important factor. If they did not have the drive, they would not utilize these functions in sports. Meaning, they have to want to do it to unleash the potential of their respective functions.

Sorry, I think i rambled a bit.


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## nordlund63

I don't think personality type really has anything to do with it. 

Determination and genes (in that order) are the deciding factors. 

Determination to make sure you get there, and genes for "how far" and "how easily."


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## Joseph

I have awful rhythm, I feel very out of tune with my body. I play music, but I can't dance. 

For hand-eye coordination, I played varsity baseball in high school, and hitting (which requires ridiculous technique, reflexes, and hand-eye coordination) came so natural to me. Coaches thought I was useless because I couldn't field, couldn't run fast, had no power, and was really quiet. The only skills I had were plate discipline and contact hitting. I read plenty of sabermetric articles to learn that walks are often as valuable as hitting, and groundouts as useless as strikeouts. So I stopped swinging at anything except perfect pitches. I would lead my team in walks, and usually OBP too. I struck out a lot though. If I wasn't so freaking skinny and short I might have had a shot to play on a college team, but no college cared about a 5'9 skinny kid with no power or speed. lol. I went to a few tryouts for division 2 college teams but did awful because I'm not actually athletic. By that point I was done with sports anyways. 

I also played football but I sucked at it. I was okay as a DB because I could quickly judge where the ball was going to be thrown and what routes were being run, it kind of made up for my lack of speed.

So ISFPs can be sort of athletic too >_> I think the genes our parents pass on are more important though.


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## INTJellectual

I think Se-doms ESTP and ESFP. They are the most in-touch of their five senses and they have the most control of their surroundings.


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## laikta

I think ESTPs and ESTJs for team sports and strategy sports that requires more tactic.
ESFPs and ESFJs are good with gymnastic and dance and more artistic kind of sports.


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## Mammon

I used to be one of the best of my year with some things in sport. 

I was the best in dodgeball with insane reflexes but my throwing was a bit less... accurate, due to my enthousiam.

I was one of the better in soccer becauese I loved going crazy on how to keep the ball, catch the ball, and go past enemies. I loved making up crazy moves.

I was good in basketball because I would run like a maniac after the ball and jump as hard as I could to catch the ball mid air. In defence they would almost not get past me because I was fiercely determinded. Sometimes when I joined I heard the opposite team saying 'oh no he has joined, keep your focus on him becaues he just appears out of nowhere and you'll lose the ball before you even had a proper look at it' xD

I loved giving my all! But that was from my 8-13's. Then stuff happend... Although I still did basketball in high school because I was a strong defence.


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## Linos

Depends on the sport, but since the most common athletes are SP's (I didn't not say the best) here's a quick run down. 

Natural power = ESTP Se Ti 

Natural creativity = ESFP Se Fi 

Natural concentration = ISTP Ti Se 

Natural energy = ISFP Fi Se 

Overall, I'd say ESTP would have the most advantages and dominate most power sports. The longest lasting athlete would be the ISFP they would dominate most endurance sports. The athlete with the most creative ability is the ESFP and could go into most sports and dominate if they put in the proper work. ISTP's athletes have a tendency to be psychotic a la Mike Tyson, see what happens when we don't get our Legos?


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## thor odinson

Linos said:


> Depends on the sport, but since the most common athletes are SP's (I didn't not say the best) here's a quick run down.
> 
> Natural power = ESTP Se Ti
> 
> Natural creativity = ESFP Se Fi
> 
> Natural concentration = ISTP Ti Se
> 
> Natural energy = ISFP Fi Se
> 
> Overall, I'd say ESTP would have the most advantages and dominate most power sports. The longest lasting athlete would be the ISFP they would dominate most endurance sports. The athlete with the most creative ability is the ESFP and could go into most sports and dominate if they put in the proper work. ISTP's athletes have a tendency to be psychotic a la Mike Tyson, see what happens when we don't get our Legos?


which one do you think has the most natural hand eye coordination?


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## Linos

thor odinson said:


> which one do you think has the most natural hand eye coordination?


Depends on the activity that is requiring the coordination to take place. You could probably answer the question using the information I posted above. 

Short term concentration like power lifting (ESTP)

Complex movements requiring extreme coordination like break dancing (ESFP)

Random fluctuations of hand-eye coordination like hunting (ISTP)

Long term consistent coordination like cutting vegetables for longer periods or something like that (ISFP)

These are not set in stone, a ISFP could easily become a great power lifter but I am addressing natural advantage not who will indefinitely dominate. 

Video games is something I find very interesting because there are some genres like strategy games where NT's dominate due to their cerebral advantage. 

Under extreme pressure I experience what I like to describe as pure trances that are commonly referred to as flow (in sports it's known as 'being in the zone'). This is not limited by personality type. These trances are NOT limited to sports, but if a person were able to induce flow on command then they would have a considerable advantage. I think (through observing athletes for 20 years) F's have a considerable advantage here because they are able to consciously go into flow IF certain conditions are met (divine inspiration my friend like to call it). So there you have it, but I'm not the information fountain on flow, that belongs to Csikszentmihalyi. 

For any curious souls out there, this publication can perhaps shine some light into the subject. (It's recent too!)


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## thor odinson

Interesting. I've never seen it break down that way. It's insightful.


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## Lorig

Linos said:


> ...Long term consistent coordination like cutting vegetables for longer periods or something like that (ISFP)...


 sounds like an awesome sport


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## Brian1

Does Poker count as an athletic sport? Because I was going to say Phil Gorden and Mike Matesow are awesome at looking at their cards...ooo don't forget Jennifer Harman,Annette Obrestad,Isabelle Mercier.


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## thor odinson

Brian1 said:


> Does Poker count as an athletic sport? Because I was going to say Phil Gorden and Mike Matesow are awesome at looking at their cards...ooo don't forget Jennifer Harman,Annette Obrestad,Isabelle Mercier.


Your an ESTP. Hows your hand eye coordination. Do you think it has anything to do with Se?


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## Brian1

I think my hand eye coordination is pretty good. I would say the observing of the respected players, what does their face tell you, what does their willingness to raise and call tell you? Just sensing that immediate environment and being calculative. I think that's where the Se comes in.


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## thor odinson

Brian1 said:


> I think my hand eye coordination is pretty good. I would say the observing of the respected players, what does their face tell you, what does their willingness to raise and call tell you? Just sensing that immediate environment and being calculative. I think that's where the Se comes in.


I think Se does play role in how good one's hand eye coordination is.

Obviously there are exceptions.

I'm intuitive and my hand eye is pretty good although nothing special. 

And conversely I'm sure there are some Se users who's hand eye is not so great.

I think a lot of people take offense or at least reservation with the statement that Se is correlated to hand eye coordination.

But at the same time many people would agree that hand eye coordination, like many other skills are something certain individuals are born having better than others, at least predisposition wise.

But when we try and identify and name the cause(s) behind it, people reject it, because they dislike labels.

Obviously, much research needs to be done, and if neuroscience can assist psychology with linking cognitive functions to certain regions or processes within the brain, they would have more credibility.

But from the many definitions of Se "rich awareness of one's external surroundings", I don't think it 's ludicrous to insinuate a connection between Se and hand eye coordination.

I play a lot of tennis, so I guess that's why I'm interested.

My brother is an SP, and he notices his position on the court, his opponents position, the location of the ball, the speed, height, trajectory and spin of the ball, all with real time precision. And he's pretty damn good because of it.


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