# Let's do this again



## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I think it's time for my "value questionnaire" at -> http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/106302-interesting-questionnaire.html
I might have been really biased when I've done this, so it's alright to question it.

*1. What are 5 key qualities about you, and what is each of their direct opposites?*

Loyal - Disloyal
Honest - Dishonest
Protective - Neglecting 
Personal - Impersonal
Can't take critique - Tough minded

*2. Now explain why each of the opposites COULD be you and why it might be GOOD to be that opposite characteristic. Own them even if they are negative traits.*

I can be disloyal if I don't think that the cause is just and of I don't value the person enough.

I'm dishonest sometimes to protect someone I care about, I'm not a good liars, but I can tell white lies.

I tend to be protect the people close to me from everyone except myself and sometimes I can neglect them and their emotions, as well as others' emotions.

*3. What would you say to a 5-year-old child if he or she asked you what the purpose of life is?*

The purpose of life is to live forever in the knowledge that you've spread around the world throughout your life.

*4. What type of advice would you give that same child on how to survive in this world?*

Be yourself, but be wise about what people you shall share yourself with.

*5. If you were told you only had one year to live from today, and it was 100% guaranteed that you would die exactly 1 year from now, what would you do in that year? * 

I'd probably enter a heavy depression, but then I might try to help my friends to reach their goals. I'm really passionate about my friends reaching their life goals.
I might otherwise shake the world up a bit so that the countries might cooperate more instead of being so selfish as they are today.

*6. Why aren't you doing this now?*

I am helping my friends to the degree that I can, but I can't spend so much time on things like that.

*7. What do you really want in your truest self? *

Happiness? I want what everyone wants, happiness and a life without trouble.

*8. What have you substituted/settled for compared to what you really want?*

I tend to do that to most my goals if I get resistance. I'm not pushy about goals that people passionately try to resist.

*9. What are your defense mechanisms?*
Toilet visit is something that is close in such encounters and then I get depressive.
I will try to old back if it's a friend and the closer the friend, the stronger I will hold back, but at one point I will release all the negative information that I got about the person with a release of emotions.

I tend to know dark truths about people or my connection to them which can be extremely damaging and I shout out those things when the person has "crossed the line".

*10. What are some good habits that are needed for living a healthy adult life?*

You need to see the good in people and situations. We are all messed up and life is about seeing the good in those things.

*11. What are you like in relaxed and non-threatening situations?*

I'm really open with the information I give out and I enter a suggestive state (meaning that I can be persuaded to do stupid things).
I can have really intellectual conversations as well in these times.

*12. What is your predominant fault?*

Right now it's definitely clinginess at least. :laughing:
Like I want to hug @FacelessBeauty for no other reason than that she's cool :happy:

*13. Think of a time when you felt at ease and connected to yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?*

I felt like I loved everyone in the world and that everyone had goodness in them.
I also felt a sense of love being spread around by people.

*14. Think of a time when you felt anxious and disconnected from yourself and others. What did you think about yourself, others, and the entire world during this time?
*
I felt like as if I was in a dark room, disconnected from the world and alone, abandoned.
Like an abandoned child I hated the world for what it had done to me.

*15. What is an addiction or urge that seems to drive you as almost as if you’re not in control? Almost like an alien force that drives or pushes you down.*

Question 12 answers that! :tongue:
I'm extremely clingy atm.

*16. What things do you feel you cannot do because they might jeopardize your survival?*

I cannot spread my wings (express myself) because I fear that they will be cut off by others (criticized).

*17. What do you need in your life to face your fears?*

Love, when I feel loved I can do everything and all I do is guided by that love.

*18. What is your own personal mission statement?*

I kinda answered that on question 3.
I want to spread knowledge.
Ignorance is bliss (what you don't know can't hurt you), but it is still ignorance.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

All this clinginess/focus on helping your friends is sounding very Fe. Since you're not an extrovert, I think your Fe may be auxiliary. I think it's too high and steady to be inferior. IxTPs aren't as attached to people and focused on them as you are, they are more emotionally independent and focused on things, not people (unless people become the object of their intellectual interest, which is the only way I can pay much attention to people). So, I think you may be either INFJ or ISFJ, but I think the latter, because I think you're more Si/Ne than Ni/Se. Like this:



> I want what everyone wants, happiness and a life without trouble.


A desire for stability and comfort: Si.



> Love, when I feel loved I can do everything and all I do is guided by that love.


This could be a sign of Si-Fe. ISFJs tend to self-doubt and need the encouragement of people who love them behind them.

But I'm not sure. There are plenty of signs of INFJ-ness, too. I wonder to what degree you're allowing your biases to influence what you say.  I think we need some of our local function experts to get to the bottom of what functions you use and how they're working together.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> All this clinginess/focus on helping your friends is sounding very Fe. Since you're not an extrovert, I think your Fe may be auxiliary. I think it's too high and steady to be inferior. IxTPs aren't as attached to people and focused on them as you are, they are more emotionally independent and focused on things, not people (unless people become the object of their intellectual interest, which is the only way I can pay much attention to people). So, I think you may be either INFJ or ISFJ, but I think the latter, because I think you're more Si/Ne than Ni/Se. Like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read somewhere once that Te expresses itself by referring to sources, but I've entered a lot of fights with people because I don't use it and I also got a paper in school rejected because I didn't source an area (even if I usually use about 8 sources per page (about 2 sources per thing I say)) I also had a grade lowered because I had copied from a page.

If it is true, then I can be quite sure that I use Ti, but maybe to a lower degree?

Another thing that might be good to know is that I feel obliged for example to watch a chat that I'm in or a post/thread that I've made so that I can answer as soon as possible if anyone responds.

Third and last thing that I will bring up in this post is an argument I had before with an INFJ.
We were talking about movies in the cinema and she said that she was one of those who would shout out what would happen later in the movie and 2 INTJs I know have said the same thing and I became incredibly upset about that behavior because I found it incredibly mean to destroy the movie for everyone else, just because you know how things are gonna go.
Most people already know, but it's annoying when people shout it out because you want to pretend like you don't know what will happen or at least I want to pretend like I don't know (it's the only way for me to not get bored about everything in life since I usually can't do something twice and most things follows a pattern which would get boring if you make a big thing out of it).


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I read somewhere once that Te expresses itself by referring to sources, but I've entered a lot of fights with people because I don't use it and I also got a paper in school rejected because I didn't source an area (even if I usually use about 8 sources per page (about 2 sources per thing I say)) I also had a grade lowered because I had copied from a page.
> 
> If it is true, then I can be quite sure that I use Ti, but maybe to a lower degree?
> 
> ...


Suggestions:

Fe grip
Ti grip
Ne grip
Se grip

All right, I am too lazy to link all these now but I am quite sure you can find them on your own. Which one do you recognize with the most?

Also, do you remember when I said I thought you could've been an INFJ before?  Well, too much Ti in your for an INFP anyway.

Unfortunately I don't have time right now to give you a more thorough analysis  Yes, I know, I promise!


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Suggestions:
> 
> Fe grip
> Ti grip
> ...


I will read up on those when I have returned :happy:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Also, do you remember when I said I thought you could've been an INFJ before?  Well, too much Ti in your for an INFP anyway.


I agree. I think you clearly have use of Ti but although you use it a lot I don't think it's your strong function: I think it's probably tertiary.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Suggestions:
> 
> Fe grip
> Ti grip
> ...


I believe you are referring to these, right? The Form of the Inferior - INJs
And I actually agree with the whole concept of being afraid of just about anything that can physically harm me, but I assume that my enneagram 6w5 can have something to do with it as well.
I am also extremely adversarial against other people and I see them many times as competition. I'd rather be wrong and win than wrong and accept it (that is when I feel threatened at least).

I don't think that it's like for ITPs tho, because I can make jokes about dead people and pets, I just don't because it's seen as horrible.
My cousin who I think might be INTP asked me where one of my cats were and I replied without a flinch "he's dead" which made my cousin give me a :shocked: face because I said it in such non-caring and dry tone like as if it was nothing special.

I can agree to some about the inferior Ti way of compulsively trying to find the truth behind something, but I stop caring if it takes more brain power than I feel like I want to give it.

I can't agree with the inferior Ne one and I also know 2 ISTJs and I don't act like them. They do things slow and steady and get depressed when they do tests in school because tests are time limited and they need a long time to do something.
I usually leave before the NJs but after the SPs and long before the ISJs.
It seems like NPs and SJs are the last to leave (NPs first of them and then SJs).

I also abandoned this model before because I felt that it didn't work so well for me.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

If it says anything then in a family of 2 ESFPs (mother and sister) and 1 ISTJ (my father), I was the only one that didn't cry the day we buried our cat who had been with us for over 16 years.

Even my ISTJ father cried and my ESFP mother openly cried and called me cold later that day (not in exact words, but she commented that I didn't cry which I saw as a synonym for her calling me cold) as well because I showed so few emotions after which I got into an emotional fight with her about how rude and presumptuous it was of her to call me that.

My sister was in China at the time.

EDIT: Unofficial post 750! WOHO!  Yes, I like these kinds of things :tongue:


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

I had a long, detailed response to several of your posts in this thread. However, it got way, way, _way_ into tl;dr territory. (Which is a shame, 'cause it took forever to type. :tongue

So I'm going to start from scratch. Instead of offering my reactions to your statements and exploring what it means, I'm going to make statements and try to provide evidence to support my views. It'll probably be a lot easier to read. 

As best as I can tell, your functions are Te, Fi, Si, and Ne. I'm not really sure about the order. But figuring out your inferior function is an extremely important part of the process. 

I originally thought that Te-Fi comprised your dominant-inferior axis, but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out which one was the inferior. After stepping back, I'm now inclined to think that Ne is actually the culprit. I saw on the last page of the thread that you didn't identify with inferior Ne. However, I'd like to ask that you keep an open mind while I discuss the possibility.

First of all, Si seems to be your preferred perceiving function. For example:



> 2. Study these two images here and here. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?
> 
> Since I've never been much for food, then this one is the more preferred of the two pictures.
> I find people poking on food to be a bit distasteful in a picture, I don't like photo's of people eating either, so that might be why.
> ...


That is Si right there. I don't mean in the stereotypical MBTI sense, in which any sort of recollection is attributed to Si. What I'm saying is that your response to the stimuli reflects a subjective perception. Here's how Jung explains it:



Jung said:


> He perceives the same things as everybody else, only he does not stop at the purely objective influence, but concerns himself with the subjective perception excited by the objective stimulus. ... What is perceived is either not found at all in the object, or is, at most, merely suggested by it.


Ne was the only other perceiving function that I could pick up on, and it seemed to be used negatively. At first, I was mostly just curious about your aversion to "threats" and danger. For example:



> 14. What is it that you fear in life? Why? How does this fear manifest to you both in how you think and how you act?
> I basically fear everything that can harm me in any way.
> Better be safe than sorry.
> I only take actions that I can be sure about and things that definitely won't harm me, however at times I might be convinced to do it even if it can harm me.


It's hard to tell what kind of "harm" you're talking about. But apparently it's very important to you, so it may reflect your inferior function.

Before proceeding, perhaps we should refer to Jung's description of inferior Ne so that we know what definition we're working with.



Jung said:


> His unconscious is distinguished chiefly by the repression of intuition, which consequently acquires an extraverted and archaic character. Whereas true extraverted intuition is possessed of a singular resourcefulness, a "good nose" for objectively real possibilities, this archaicized intuition has an amazing flair for all the ambiguous, shadowy, sordid, dangerous possibilities lurking in the background. The real and conscious intentions of the object mean nothing to it; instead, it sniffs out every conceivable archaic motive underlying such an intention. It therefore has a dangerous and destructive quality that contrasts glaringly with the well-meaning innocuousness of the conscious attitude.


So I'm trying to figure out whether that characterizes your inferior. For example:



> When I was younger, I thought that everyone hated me and I treated actions made by others as made in a hostile attempt, even compliments were seen as an attempt to get me to reveal information that I could be offended by for a future use by the person.


Is that inferior Ne? The other possibility is inferior Te in an Fi-dom:



Jung said:


> The egocentrized subject now comes to feel the power and importance of the devalued object. She begins to feel "what others think." Naturally, other people are thinking all sorts of mean things, scheming evil, contriving plots, secret intrigues, etc. In order to forestall them, she herself is obliged to start counter-intrigues, to suspect others and sound them out, and weave counterplots. Beset by rumours, she must make frantic efforts to get her own back and be top dog. Endless clandestine rivalries spring up, and in these embittered struggles she will shrink from no baseness or meanness, and will even prostitute her virtues in order to play the trump card.


But I hit some roadblocks when I considered the possibility of you being an Fi-dom. You actually don't seem very comfortable with it, and you seem to favor extraverted judgment. For example, you repeatedly referenced other people when talking about your own reactions/behaviors/etc. (e.g., "like with all humans"). And you used emotional manipulation to make a point after your friend disappeared, because he didn't abide by your standards for "appropriate behavior." That's gotta be Te or Fe's influence.

It's a tough call here. ... I'm inclined to say that you show Te-Fi, not Fe-Ti. Some examples of why:



> I am however very competitive in an unhealthy way, I'm the kind of competitor who would try to make it harder for the competition, or cheat, to win.





> 3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?
> 
> I cannot really describe myself as a person because I got issues finding those stuff out.
> But I'm positive when others are negative and negative when others are positive and that's just about how my mood is.
> I feel that this question has more to do with enneagrams tho and I feel like I already answered this in my basic description of myself.





> I'm extremely judgmental when it comes to other people. I can decide if I'll like someone or not in a few seconds and I won't change my opinion of them (or will attempt to not) because I don't want to see myself as a liar, this is when I tell others what I think of someone. When I get an impression without making it public I am more open to changing my opinion as I'm only worried about the "what did I tell you".


I've gotta go, but right now I'm gonna say ISTJ. The stuff about citing sources and taking forever on tests really just reflects stereotypes, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stereotypes can obscure your true type, so it's best to steer clear of them (especially with Si types).


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> It's hard to tell what kind of "harm" you're talking about. But apparently it's very important to you, so it may reflect your inferior function.
> 
> I've gotta go, but right now I'm gonna say ISTJ. The stuff about citing sources and taking forever on tests really just reflects stereotypes, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stereotypes can obscure your true type, so it's best to steer clear of them (especially with Si types).


It was a nice read :happy:

Firstly, when I was talking about harm, I meant in any and every sense (parasites, viruses, epidemics, getting hit by a car or bus, fatal accidents, breaking a leg, twisting my finger etc.). Emotional/mental harm (like PTSD, heart break, death of someone close etc.) can also be counted into that.

As I've stated, then my father is ISTJ roud:
Also knew a female ISTJ in school, her assessment of me was something in the style of "you are interesting".

I tend to start mental games when I'm tired or bored that have a close to 100% success rate at annoying people. I have even annoyed an ENTJ, my INTP friend asked if I tried to annoy him, an INTJ friend asked if I tried to annoy him and the list goes on.

Anyways, back onto what I was talking about.
My ex thought for a while that I was ISFJ, but her opinion is now invalidated after our last fight.

Anyways, I tend to leave some people with something to think about when they're offline.
I might see something interesting and then I send it to them so they can read/see it when they are awake.
Sometimes I send them links to discussions like this so they can join in if they want, or give me their opinion in private.
I for example sent the link to this discussion to my INTP friend and that is even tho I know he doesn't like MBTI, but I thought he might at least analyze it.



> I've gotta go, but right now I'm gonna say ISTJ. The stuff about citing sources and taking forever on tests really just reflects stereotypes, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. Stereotypes can obscure your true type, so it's best to steer clear of them (especially with Si types).


That's from my personal observations and not something I read on the Internet :tongue:

EDIT: Post 750!!! :happy:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

@Coyote I like the way you sniffed out the possibility of inferior Ne. I'm not just saying that because it supports my current theory of ISFJ  , I just hadn't seen the evidence for inferior Ne lurking and now that you've pointed it out I do. A good possibility. 



Acerbusvenator said:


> I am however very competitive in an unhealthy way, I'm the kind of competitor who would try to make it harder for the competition, or cheat, to win.


This makes me immediately think of my ENFJ friend. (He does it only in a playful way, but he's a saint, and if he were a less honest person he could do it to win.) So, I wouldn't rule it out as being as much Fe as Te. (In the context of where Coyote uses it to support extroverted judging.)



> Anyways, I tend to leave some people with something to think about when they're offline.
> I might see something interesting and then I send it to them so they can read/see it when they are awake.
> Sometimes I send them links to discussions like this so they can join in if they want, or give me their opinion in private.
> I for example sent the link to this discussion to my INTP friend and that is even tho I know he doesn't like MBTI, but I thought he might at least analyze it.


My ISFJ father does this, like, compulsively. I mean, it's one of the more significant parts of his personality, in relation to other people. An INFJ acquaintance used to do a similar thing. I think maybe it's related to auxiliary Fe. Not quite sure if it's more related to Ni or Si, or either.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> @_Coyote_ I like the way you sniffed out the possibility of inferior Ne. I'm not just saying that because it supports my current theory of ISFJ  , I just hadn't seen the evidence for inferior Ne lurking and now that you've pointed it out I do. A good possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting :happy:
Tho I think I exaggerated a bit.
If I'm in a competition against my sister I will make her looks stupid and/or hug her with random intervals.
If I'm in a competition against a girlfriend or someone close to me, I will play nice and maybe let them win except at sometimes when I feel like making a point (like someone who makes me tired because they keep challenging me on a game that I know they'll lose anyways).
If I play against someone neutral, I'll observe how they act and copy it (if they are friendly and relaxed, then I am, if they are competitive and hostile, I'll be the same).
If I play against someone I don't like, I will make small cheats, like I once did a game with my cousin (who I don't like so much) with an air gun where the point of it was to gain a certain amount of points or more than it first (we were couning from one of those training papers that show numbers from 1-10 or something like that) and at one of the games I got bored and h asked me how many points I got after one of my shots after which I lied and showed him a hole with a higher score and told him that it was were I hit it.

My view of cheating is quite strong :tongue:
When it comes to singleplayer computer games, then I love cheating, but only to the degree that it's still fun to play.
I like things like unlimited ammo and stuff like that because it's funny! :kitteh:
I also speed up some RPG games by adding XP or levels (just because grinding is boring) so that I can just follow the main mission without being stopped by useless side-missions... :angry: (I got no love for side-missions)

I can be honest and say that I cheat at borderlands because reaching level 69 in a pain and you have to re-do all the missions, which (like I stated) I hate...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_Acerbusvenator_, sorry for being so slow but I've been busy and a little tired but here it is. I have read all posts in this thread aside the ones I have contributed with myself, but I am still not convinced of auxiliary Fe for you. I see so much hidden Ti it's ridiculous, and I do think you're primairly a thinker, not a feeler. While feelers, especially Fe users, can be manipulative, they seem to be largely unaware of it _as manipulation_. I speak of this from experience, having one ESFJ grandmother, and knowing one ENFJ and an INFJ. Fe users, at least young ones, use manipulation unconsciously because they think they are doing something good. Tertiary and inferior Fe users on the other hand, are aware of it as manipulation. There is a slight different in mindset where I think (and this is a theory, do note this) that auxiliary and dominant Fe users must learn how to discern when they use Fe negatively due to their eagerness of using Fe, whereas tertiary and inferior users must learn how to use Fe positively. 

Right, so let's move on.


*First Questionnaire*

* *







> 1. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.
> *
> At this moment I'm quite tired and I'm still drained from yesterdays social event (which hasn't really ended yet) and my cousin interrupted me right after question 2 and my mother did the same right after question 10.*
> *Other than that: Male, 20, about to move away from home.*


Facts, facts, facts. (Social) introversion. Thinking preference likely. Prefernce for informative communication style, as highlighted with the comment that your mother and cousin interrupted you twice. This alone rules out a lot of types and we are left with ISFJ, INTP, INFP, ISFP, ESFJ, ENTP, ENFP and ESFP. Based on the thread title you seem to be more of a person to start projects. Could point towards Ne dominance but not sure. 



> 2. Study these two images here and here. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, plenty of Si here, although the first comment could potentially also be understood as SiNeFi. Si is evident in the second paragraph though, again with Ne though. I do not personally sense Si dominance here.


> 3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?
> 
> *I cannot really describe myself as a person because I got issues finding those stuff out.
> But I'm positive when others are negative and negative when others are positive and that's just about how my mood is.
> I feel that this question has more to do with enneagrams tho and I feel like I already answered this in my basic description of myself.*


Hm, could be signs of Te with Si here. Referring to what is done and known, and referring to enneagram but that also seems highly theoretical in nature, and Ne-jumpish. The reason why this question is included in the questionnaire has to do with that it helps to type people if you get a grasp of how they normally are as people if they are allowed to simply describe themselves. Not necessarily an enneagram question but more a question to get a glimpse of how people perceive themselves to reveal possible typing bias.


> 4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?
> 
> *I would like to be able to be kind without my defensive mechanisms and without turning cynical.
> I want to be able to help others.
> I can read the emotions of others quite well, but I'd like to be able to act after that information instead of just being aware of them.*


I see Fi-Te here. Hard to say though. There is something about the way you structure your posts that says Te to me. That you have to break up your sentences between every new idea by starting on a new line, as if you think of them as separate instances in your mind. This behavior is something I have started to connect more with Te-use, especially in Fi users but also in sensors. 

If you are the kind of "know before you jump" person, that would perhaps speak more towards introversion. What does it mean when you say that you can read emotions of others quite well, though? How do you read it? Is it an intuitive process or do you do it through body language or some entirely different means?


> 5. Do you think there are any differences to how you described yourself and how people actually perceive you? How do you think others would describe you? If there are any discrepancies between these two that are you are aware of; do you know why exactly that is?
> 
> *What I'm aware of is that I'm a person that people either love or hate. Some of my friends became friends with me because they admired my loyalty and some of my friends like that I'm there for them when they need me (which has a bit to do with the other one) but many see me as cranky and pessimistic. Both sides comment that I'm very passive-aggressive tho and even my INTP friend really agreed with that. Personally, I've always seen it as so that I get passive-aggressive around certain people.*


Doesn't quite say much thus far, but I have noticed that those with Ne in their stack (regardless of position) are more likely to be passive-aggressive. Not seeing Ni in you thus far, I do see Ne. Crankiness doesn't necessarily mean anything, although again, you are quite aware of what others think of you. I see less focus on who you are (I am this and that) and much more focus on how you are preceived (they say I am this and that). You do seem to generally describe yourself through the eyes of others but hard to say Te or Fe. Moving on.


> 6. What in life do you find to be of importance? Why? If you are unsure you can always take the Value Test and post the results here. Do note that it helps if you narrow it down to 20 or ideally 10 values as suggested at stage 2.
> 
> *I've done that before and I don't have the concentration to do it again :tongue:
> Instead I searched the site and found my old one!*
> ...


Yes, this test score is interesting but probably relates more to your enneagram. I would say that it would perhaps point more towards Si-dom (trustworthiness, honor, loyalty) but hard to tell. I am also wondering if you are in fac an Se user but I am on the other hand not really seeing Se from you at all, nor am I seeing Ni in these responses.


> 7. How do you react to new situations in your life? Can you describe an event in your life where you were in an unknown situation? How did you deal with it?
> 
> *If I enter a new and unexpected event I get afraid and a toilet visit will soon be required because of it.
> Depending on the scenario I might react differently.
> ...


See Si here, definitely. Starting to wonder if you are an extraverted Ne dom in Si grip or something else. Your manipulation is still too self-conscious (you are aware that you are manipulating even if this awareness occurs afterwards) for an Fe aux or dom user. 

As for the anxiety itself, it is hard to pinpoint if it's because of your enneagram or a result of your functions. You mentioned that the fear is really of everything in general though. It could be SeNiTi paranoia or it could be 6 paranoia in general. Really, really hard to say. Inferior Ne could work too, but on the other hand, you don't seem to be afraid because you suspect worst-case-scenarios and become paranoid for such a reason. On the other hand, you did identify with the inferior Ne profile.


> 8. Please describe yourself when you are in a stressful situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.
> 
> *I basically just shut down, my brain goes into sleep mode and I start to walk around like a drone if I'm stressed.
> One time when I got a bit of a panic was when a friend of mine fell unconscious because she was knocked down and under a few people traveling down the hill on the snow (because it was winter and we were at a place with the school). I was incredibly stunned and all I was able to do was to run for help while my ENTJ friend stood around directing people.*
> ...


Again very hard to say anything based on this. Could be F dominance but could be something else too.


> 9. Please describe yourself when you are in an enjoyable situation. How do you act and why? Real life experiences are welcome.
> 
> *I'm in an enjoyable situation when I'm able to have a sense of calmness with close friends without feeling the need to talk, but just with some slow and calm conversations.
> I become a quite nice person when I'm calm because I can think about what I should say.
> The best and most comfortable discussions I've had have been on the docks beside my school in the summer because the sea and the warmth of the sun made me calm.*


So much Si gush here, especially towards the end. The rest is very hard to say.


> 10. Describe your relationship to socialization. How do you perceive one-on-one interaction? How do you perceive group interaction?
> 
> *I can enjoy both, but I got a need of being spoken to and not excluded (I believe this might be a side effect of the 10 years I've been bullied) which can be hard in large groups.
> I generally prefer to just have one loyal close friend that always will be there for me and a person that I know wont just ditch me for someone else.
> ...


Hm. Could be bullying, could be Fe. Latching onto someone else really sounds like Fe though. And agian, competition. Sounds like so much Fe right there.


> 11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?
> 
> *I've never been much for those kinds of things and when it comes to norms and traditions I tend to do the opposite, just because I can.
> I'm not really observant of those things, so I can't really see my relationship to those things.
> Mostly I just do what I think I should do.*


Just because you can? XD Doesn't sound much like an Si dom kind of thinking to me. Screams perceiving all the way. Does this "just because you can" feeling occur especially if you feel enforced to do something? 

Do what you think should do seems a bit more... FiTe-ish. Perhaps. On the other hand, the blatant dismissal could point to infeiror Fe and supression of Fe. Regardless, I am fairly certain than an auxiliary or dominant Fe user would be quite aware of social norms and values. It's what makes their Fe tick.


> 12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?
> 
> *I've always looked up to the police, but I got a bit of sarcasm with authority which has to do with question 11, since respecting authority is a norm and I don't like norms.
> I only respect them because they can use the power of their position against me if I annoy them.*
> *I'm quite open when it comes to criticizing military tho since they aren't in a position that forces me to respect them and because I don't like military.*


I smell contradiction here. You say you don't really have much of a relationship with social norms and values, but here you point out that you do, and respect does not come naturally for you. It has to be earned, right? Seems more congruent with NTP thinking. Not entirely sure how INFPs feel about people having to earn respect. 

Hm, the point about power could point towards Te but I am not sure to be honest. See some Fi in here as well, with the talk about not liking the military.


> 13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?
> 
> *Order for me is in calmness of mind since that is when I can put things into place and understand how things should be. Chaos for me is when there's a lot of sound and a lot of people talking or asking me questions at the same time.*





> Hm, what does putting things into place mean? I somehow get this as a more theoretical thing, that you do it in your mind rather than externally. Would point towards Ji dom. Seems to be Se here, could also be inferior Se.
> 
> 14. What is it that you fear in life? Why? How does this fear manifest to you both in how you think and how you act?
> 
> ...


Yeah, a lot ot 6 here.


> 15. What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve? Why? Where do you think these drives and desires stem from or are inspired by?
> 
> *I got no other desires in my life than to be happy and to feel calm.
> I don't try to achieve anything other than that and the only reason I want it is because that's when I feel at my finest.*


You feel your finest when you are calm?


> 16. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?
> 
> *I don't feel energized so often, but I sometimes feel energized when I'm winning over a competition or when I can be happy while I feel calm and like everyone else then a good laugh gives me energy.
> 
> ...


The way you phrased this answer is very Te, especially at the end. Rest remains unclear.


> 17. Why do you want to know your type? What type do you think you are? Why this/these type(s)? Is there a type that appeals to you, to your self-perception, that you would like to be? Why? If you know your enneagram, please post this here. If you have done any online function tests such as the Keys2Cognition, it helps if you post these results here as well.
> *
> I've always had an interest in understanding the human mind and I want to be able to understand myself as well.
> The rest I will let you take care of because I don't want to make this more biased.*


Yes, we've gone over this a bit already and what it means.



> 18. Finally, is there something else you find to be of importance you want to add about yourself you think might be of relevance when helping to type you?
> 
> *Don't think I've said it before.
> I usually get really annoyed when others are doing things that are totally useless for no apparent reason when we're trying to achieve something (like sitting and talking when we need to do something), but I love to do the same.*
> ...


Hm, I get a lot of Te here. 




I know I wrote that you recognized yourself with the inferior Ne profile but I meant Se. I mixed it up. 

Anyway, from what I've seem thus far it is defiinitely Ne and Si. Te and Fi and Ti and Fe are much harder to say for some reason. I am however leaning towrds auxliary Ne and tertiary Si at this point, but not sure. 

Also, a question about the image of the clock you linked when I asked what "click" means. What was your reasoning behind picking that particular image to exemplify what you meant?

Wanted to comment on this as well because it is relevant:


> Anyways, I tend to leave some people with something to think about when they're offline.
> I might see something interesting and then I send it to them so they can read/see it when they are awake.
> Sometimes I send them links to discussions like this so they can join in if they want, or give me their opinion in private.
> I for example sent the link to this discussion to my INTP friend and that is even tho I know he doesn't like MBTI, but I thought he might at least analyze it.


I can do this too as an inferior Fe user. I think this might just be related to Fe in general. I can be purposefully vague and refuse to leave out information if I for example want people to think about something, if I think it benefits them.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

There's a lot to quote here, so I'll put a mention on you @LeaT so you still get a notification :tongue:



> If you are the kind of "know before you jump" person, that would perhaps speak more towards introversion. What does it mean when you say that you can read emotions of others quite well, though? How do you read it? Is it an intuitive process or do you do it through body language or some entirely different means?


I find it to be like a magic wall if I try to act without knowledge, I just simply can't.

I can notice when people are getting upset and I can partially understand when they are showing other emotions.
I see it a bit by their expressions and some by the way they talk. People start to use harder hand movements and they speak more clearly when they are fighting against getting upset for example.



> I smell contradiction here. You say you don't really have much of a relationship with social norms and values, but here you point out that you do, and respect does not come naturally for you. It has to be earned, right? Seems more congruent with NTP thinking. Not entirely sure how INFPs feel about people having to earn respect.


The contradiction is that I like my life more than I dislike authority :tongue:



> You feel your finest when you are calm?


Peace and serenity :happy:
I react based on what the mood is, meaning that if it's a friendly and calm environment, I am the same and since I like to feel serenity, then yea.



> Also, a question about the image of the clock you linked when I asked what "click" means. What was your reasoning behind picking that particular image to exemplify what you meant?


I wanted a sound that people could connect to a process of a kind. Everyone "gets" what I mean when they hear that sound and I found it to be a good and descriptive example.
I also found that it was something super obvious which would trigger a "I feel so stupid right now" feeling (I wouldn't have revealed that if you hadn't asked since I've been thought that you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you and in this metaphor you are one of the people who are feeding me/typing me).

Now I think I have commented on all your questions.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

The functions he uses seem to be Si (not Se), Fe (not Fi), Ti (not Te), and Ne (not Ni).

I think he's a Ti user because he analyses/explains almost every single thing he says. I think he's an Ne user because he doesn't try to hone in on a conclusion but throws more and more and more ideas out there.

So, I think it's between INTP, ISFJ, ENTP, and ESFJ.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

A "fun fact" that I would like to add is that my INTP friend has for a while asked (quite repeatedly) me if he has offended the person he just talked to.

Another thing is that I had a conversation with my INTP friend about what we were going to work as and I became incredibly frustrated that he had no goal of what he wanted to be, he was just floating around and I felt like he was wasting his potential.
I later gave up that argument tho since he didn't budge.

Personally I am gonna study to become a sociologist because I want a profession were I don't need to think so hard and I can feel relaxed and not have a constant and repetitive job. People are still amusing, even if it's repetitive... almost more amusing since you got their answers already.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm starting to wonder about ENTP. His Ne in this thread is sort of offending my Se-Ni efficiency and he sort of has that Ne-dom obnoxiousness. (I mean that affectionately.  ) @_Acerbusvenator_ have you read the article on inferior Si?

*In light of this, from @LeaT (sometimes my Ni uses stuff and I forget to give credit where credit is due):



> Starting to wonder if you are an extraverted Ne dom in Si grip or something else. Your manipulation is still too self-conscious (you are aware that you are manipulating even if this awareness occurs afterwards) for an Fe aux or dom user.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> I'm starting to wonder about ENTP. His Ne in this thread is sort of offending my Se-Ni efficiency and he sort of has that Ne-dom obnoxiousness. (I mean that affectionately.  ) @_Acerbusvenator_ have you read the article on inferior Si?
> 
> *In light of this, from @_LeaT_ (sometimes my Ni uses stuff and I forget to give credit where credit is due):


Just read up a bit on it and I can't really say that I agree with it.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> There's a lot to quote here, so I'll put a mention on you @_LeaT_ so you still get a notification :tongue:
> 
> 
> I find it to be like a magic wall if I try to act without knowledge, I just simply can't.
> ...


Yeah, I am definitely starting to lean towards tertiary Fe for you. Still not seeing evidence for auxiliary or dominant. Only other option I can see is ENFP but that doesn't seem right either. You are most likely NP though, and that's as far as I can tell.

Hm, the logic between the sound is kind of Te-ish. I am still not sure what you mean to be honest. You seem to dodge the questions I ask how you think more specifically as well, informing me about things that aren't necessarily relevant.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm seeing a strong possibility for ENTP in the grip of Si. Or else INTP, but I'm not really seeing inferior Fe in you: Like LeaT, I think your Fe is tertiary. I do think your functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si in some order, I think your Ti is higher than your Fe (so xNTP), and I think your Ne is dominant. Have you ever considered ENTP before? Do you think it could be a good fit? Why or why not?


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## Celtic Dreams (Sep 7, 2011)

I'm thinking isfp


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Yeah, I am definitely starting to lean towards tertiary Fe for you. Still not seeing evidence for auxiliary or dominant. Only other option I can see is ENFP but that doesn't seem right either. You are most likely NP though, and that's as far as I can tell.
> 
> Hm, the logic between the sound is kind of Te-ish. I am still not sure what you mean to be honest. You seem to dodge the questions I ask how you think more specifically as well, informing me about things that aren't necessarily relevant.


I don't necessarily "dodge" the questions, sometimes I just try to understand what you are trying to say and so I make an assumption and answer. Other times, I do answer but indirectly.



ltldslwmn said:


> I'm seeing a strong possibility for ENTP in the grip of Si. Or else INTP, but I'm not really seeing inferior Fe in you: Like LeaT, I think your Fe is tertiary. I do think your functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si in some order, I think your Ti is higher than your Fe (so xNTP), and I think your Ne is dominant. Have you ever considered ENTP before? Do you think it could be a good fit? Why or why not?


I haven't really considered ENTP because I'm not as blunt as my ENTP teacher (and now partially a friend) was and I seldom ask questions in the open when everyone can hear, I usually ask them after class (except I find something the teacher said to be stupid and wrong).



Celtic Dreams said:


> I'm thinking isfp


Could you expand on that?
I fell in-love with an ISFP for her passion (values) which I knew at the time I would never have (it was beyond my understanding how she could be so passionate about something).
That is also one of the reasons that I've always doubted IFP... I'm not passionate enough about anything.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I will post my old threads now because they might give some more depth.
This is the first and most newbie I did (yes, I was a newbie once myself): http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/51711-inconsistent-personality.html
PS. I'm quite sure that I just did the lower letters by mistake because I wasn't talking about socionics (doubt I knew what it was at the time).

Here's the second thread I did: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/51905-am-i-infp.html

Yes, I am laughing as well because a lot of my threads are asking if I'm INFP.

http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/99732-will-you-accept-challenge.html
This one got a bit failed because some posted their answers to the questionnaire instead of answering mine :dry:

And yes, another one about INFP...
http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...6-am-i-infp-infj-something-else-entirely.html

I posted the links because otherwise it would've been too biased.
You can just go here: http://personalitycafe.com/search.php?searchid=2177656 to see all the threads that I've started.
Maybe they will shed some more light on this whole thing.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

"*Life is a journey of self discovery.*"

why do you want people to tell you what your type is?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I will post my old threads now because they might give some more depth.
> This is the first and most newbie I did (yes, I was a newbie once myself): http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/51711-inconsistent-personality.html
> PS. I'm quite sure that I just did the lower letters by mistake because I wasn't talking about socionics (doubt I knew what it was at the time).
> 
> ...


Why did you name that first thread inconsistent? Points towards Ti or Fi use anyway in dominant or auxiliary position. Those are the only functions that are that concerned with consistency.

As for dodging the questions:
Yes, you deflect by often answering me in an indirect manner. Aren't you the slippery fish? Sometimes I get the feeling you don't want to answer. This is your defense mechanism by pretending that you answer us but there is no substantial information in the answer. A less perceptive person than myself would perhaps not pay this any notice.

The way you hide your true self is very akin to that of an Fe smoke screen, that's for sure. (NFPs can manipulate or try to, but they are cetainly not as good because Fi gives them away.) If I were to describe your wall based on this interaction I've had with you in this thread, I get NTP in my face. Perhaps so/sx instinctual stacking. so is definitely first, either way.

I get the feeling that your wall is like water, it's very slippery and hard to grasp because it has no real concrete form. If we enter this wall of yours, we lose sight of what's ahead of us because everything is blurred out. Your core is for some reason very, very dark. Almost like a void. A lot of built up anger there. I wonder if you truly are 6w5 at your core. I think you have 8w7 in your tritype. You seem to be waiting for the right moment where you can explode. I know you focus on balance and serenity (would point towards 9), but this is not what I see in you, not deep down. I would describe your inner world like this in relation to your fuctions:

The wall I just described made out of water is NeFe. It is very easy for you to constanly reinforce it due to the nature of Ne and Fe. Would someone breach the outer layer you cover their path and obfuscate everything to the point where they are not sure where they are or what they see anything. This NeFe coves the entire area of your inner world except at the fringes. The ground in your world is cracked mud, this is your Si. It's cracked because you don't like to think back or look into the past. It is cracked because it has dried out and is very solid in nature. There is a risk of the ground collapsing at any moment, and you try to desperately make yourself lighter by pretending to be water. There is no real connection between the Si muddy ground and the NeFe wall covering your core.

The core itself is more like a darkness or void which again seems to be part to obfuscate. You don't want us to truly see what is in your core. It's almost like a hole in the ground that goes downward and inward, like a black hole. I'd say this is your Ti core. 

Am I wrong in my description of you thus far?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> "*Life is a journey of self discovery.*"
> 
> why do you want people to tell you what your type is?


I like the discussion and I see MBTI as unrelated to self discovery. :tongue:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Why did you name that first thread inconsistent? Points towards Ti or Fi use anyway in dominant or auxiliary position. Those are the only functions that are that concerned with consistency.
> 
> As for dodging the questions:
> Yes, you deflect by often answering me in an indirect manner. Aren't you the slippery fish? Sometimes I get the feeling you don't want to answer. This is your defense mechanism by pretending that you answer us but there is no substantial information in the answer. A less perceptive person than myself would perhaps not pay this any notice.
> ...


Quite well and yes indeed, my wall is blue (almost like water)... the wall in my room that is :laughing:
But yea, it's was quite good, quite good indeed. (FYI. I don't say that things fit perfectly, just that they fit well)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Quite well and yes indeed, my wall is blue (almost like water)... the wall in my room that is :laughing:
> But yea, it's was quite good, quite good indeed. (FYI. I don't say that things fit perfectly, just that they fit well)


Yes, I was thinking blue as well although I can't confirm if we think of the same blue color. The balance you seem to strive to achieve is in relation to this wall and your core mostly. It's a little like trying to defuse the fire with water, put it out before it hurts anyone or yourself, but I'd say more others than you personally. 

On a scale between sadism and masochism, where do you fall?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I like the discussion and I see MBTI as unrelated to self discovery. :tongue:


Ok, I'll say a shy or socially awkward ENFP. You could be an INFP, but I think I have the same reservations as @Coyote , although some things does remind me of myself when I was younger, in which case my friend, you have got a lot to discover. In my case my anti-social behavior were merely an expression of my frustration of trying to fit in. Because everyone wants to fit in, and not be left out, there's nothing Fe about that.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Yes, I was thinking blue as well although I can't confirm if we think of the same blue color. The balance you seem to strive to achieve is in relation to this wall and your core mostly. It's a little like trying to defuse the fire with water, put it out before it hurts anyone or yourself, but I'd say more others than you personally.
> 
> On a scale between sadism and masochism, where do you fall?


Masochism...
Knew a guy that was sadistic... scariest person I knew.



mimesis said:


> Ok, I'll say a shy or socially awkward ENFP. You could be an INFP, but I think I have the same reservations as @_Coyote_ , although some things does remind me of myself when I was younger, in which case my friend, you have got a lot to discover. In my case my anti-social behavior were merely an expression of my frustration of trying to fit in. Because everyone wants to fit in, and not be left out, there's nothing Fe about that.


Okey, well I guess that's good to know :happy:

Things that I probably should add is that:
A. I might be suffering from sleep deprivation since I'm up extremely late at night.
B. I'm 20 years old (since the end of June)
C. I'm about to move away from home (which has made me more clingy and depressed)


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Okey, well I guess that's good to know :happy:
> 
> Things that I probably should add is that:
> A. I might be suffering from sleep deprivation since I'm up extremely late at night.
> ...


Ha cancer sign. Same as me. Then moving away distresses you. And much of your values are related to friends.

I believe INFPs come to flourish a bit later, so in that case you would still be on schedule. =)


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

*Reasons for me not thinking that I'm TP*

I dominate over the INTPs I talk to in person - I tend to hurt INTPs IRL in different ways (like a girl I think is INTP that I stated that she could be cold sometimes and she never wanted to speak to me again). This to me seems like something someone with a stronger Fe might unintentionally do to someone with inferior Fe.

I am hyper expressive of my opinions - The INTPs I know don't express their opinions so often

I am emotional with a lack of seriousness about it at times - I can be emotional towards people or say that I love them (in a more friendly than serious manner) whereas the INTPs I know can't even say that they appreciate the company of someone to them directly.

I made a joke about why starving children in Africa is good for over-population. (I made it in front of my INTP friend and he almost started crying...)

*Reasons for me not thinking that I'm FP*

I have nothing that I'm really passionate about or at least that I am aware of.

I fell in-love with an ISFP because her passion was "exotic" to me.

I always tend to see the both side of FPs values.



And these things kinda mess it up for the TJ and FJ category as well since TJs aren't really over emotional and FJs don't really joke about starving children in Africa.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Ok, I'll say a shy or socially awkward ENFP. You could be an INFP, but I think I have the same reservations as @_Coyote_ , although some things does remind me of myself when I was younger, in which case my friend, you have got a lot to discover. In my case my anti-social behavior were merely an expression of my frustration of trying to fit in. Because everyone wants to fit in, and not be left out, there's nothing Fe about that.


I disagree that what I look for with Fe is not so much wanting to fit in, but how he understands himself and relates himself to others. There are some things that may seem to be a little Fe-ish over Fi-ish, in my opinion. He deflected the question I raised about whether he thinks in impersonal versus interperosnal matters entirely though.

Also, the comment after. Cancer sign? As in referring to the Zodiac sign? Please. That's even further away from science than the MBTI and has nothing to do with personality type at all.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator: Could we maybe try this a different way? I posted a summary of Jung's description of the types here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html. Maybe you could see how well you relate to any of them?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> *Reasons for me not thinking that I'm TP*
> 
> I dominate over the INTPs I talk to in person - I tend to hurt INTPs IRL in different ways (like a girl I think is INTP that I stated that she could be cold sometimes and she never wanted to speak to me again). This to me seems like something someone with a stronger Fe might unintentionally do to someone with inferior Fe.


Doesn't say much without knowing the true context.


> I am hyper expressive of my opinions - The INTPs I know don't express their opinions so often


Depends on opinions. I don't see this being exclusive to type though.


> I am emotional with a lack of seriousness about it at times - I can be emotional towards people or say that I love them (in a more friendly than serious manner) whereas the INTPs I know can't even say that they appreciate the company of someone to them directly.


INTPs are _not_ robots. I consider myself very emotional as well. Expressing feelings does not seem to point towards Fi though. Fi users are generally not as appreciative when expressing feelings as Fe users are. Could be auxiliary or teriary Fe you're speaking of here. Sounds a little INFJ-ish.


> I made a joke about why starving children in Africa is good for over-population. (I made it in front of my INTP friend and he almost started crying...)


o.o???? I don't see how that has anything to do with being an INTP. Are you sure your friend is an INTP? I would probably burst out laughing if the joke is told the right way  Ti makes you rather indifferent to these things.


> *Reasons for me not thinking that I'm FP*
> 
> I have nothing that I'm really passionate about or at least that I am aware of.


Could or could not point against Fi. 


> I fell in-love with an ISFP because her passion was "exotic" to me.


I understand the feeling of Fi doms seeming to have a passion for things I lack.


> I always tend to see the both side of FPs values.


Explain.


> And these things kinda mess it up for the TJ and FJ category as well since TJs aren't really over emotional and FJs don't really joke about starving children in Africa.


I think F users can joke about starving children in Africa. Don't stereotype too much here. 

Still not providing much of substantial value. I am interested in why you consider yourself more of a mashocist though, because I get a strong sadistic strain from you.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> o.o???? I don't see how that has anything to do with being an INTP. Are you sure your friend is an INTP? I would probably burst out laughing if the joke is told the right way  Ti makes you rather indifferent to these things.


I didn't tell it like I joke, I made a statement.
"Starving children in Africa is good for over-population"
We just had a class with a Fi dom/aux teacher at the time who talked about starving children in Africa.



> I always tend to see the both side of FPs values.





> Explain.


I talked with an ENFP who was against anyone who was even suspected of being a rapist and I made the point that people are good at pointing fingers at others for less than honest reasons. In more simple terms, another form of brutal bullying since rape crimes are just word against word most of the times and you don't know if it actually happened (or if it was a brutal form of bullying from her part, or something she was put up to do by group pressure).
I think this has to do with my lack of hard values that I stand by and I usually ask myself and others, "what if..."



> Still not providing much of substantial value. I am interested in why you consider yourself more of a mashocist though, because I get a strong sadistic strain from you.


I got an inner sadist, but I keep it restrained and the counter-reaction to that is masochism.
I become sadistic and counter productive when I'm tired or drained.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I disagree that what I look for with Fe is not so much wanting to fit in, but how he understands himself and relates himself to others. There are some things that may seem to be a little Fe-ish over Fi-ish, in my opinion. He deflected the question I raised about whether he thinks in impersonal versus interperosnal matters entirely though.
> 
> Also, the comment after. Cancer sign? As in referring to the Zodiac sign? Please. That's even further away from science than the MBTI and has nothing to do with personality type at all.


No of course, you don't try to fit in...or do you?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> @_Acerbusvenator_: Could we maybe try this a different way? I posted a summary of Jung's description of the types here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html. Maybe you could see how well you relate to any of them?


I'm just too biased to do that, but thanks anyways :happy:


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I fell in-love with an ISFP because her passion was "exotic" to me.


That's exotic to me too...:tongue: I had so many ISFPs around on Art School. Sigh... :kitteh:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I didn't tell it like I joke, I made a statement.
> "Starving children in Africa is good for over-population"
> We just had a class with a Fi dom/aux teacher at the time who talked about starving children in Africa.


Ethically, I think you're wrong, but in terms of efficiency, logically so, you are right. If anything though, this upsets my Fi more than Fe. So yeah. I think that if my Fi was less developed I would probably not even give a damn.


> I talked with an ENFP who was against anyone who was even suspected of being a rapist and I made the point that people are good at pointing fingers at others for less than honest reasons. In more simple terms, another form of brutal bullying since rape crimes are just word against word most of the times and you don't know if it actually happened (or if it was a brutal form of bullying from her part, or something she was put up to do by group pressure).
> I think this has to do with my lack of hard values that I stand by and I usually ask myself and others, "what if..."


This is just Ne at work, allowing us to see more than one side of the coin. I think this applies more to NTPs than NFPs though. Fi can make people kinda... stuck up. If you've argued with an INFP about something that hurt their Fi values, you will understand what I mean with butthurt inferior or tertiary Te. In this scenario, the Fi user could argue like this, but the basis of such an argument would be different, e.g. the Fi user is opposed to make other suffer on a universal level.


> I got an inner sadist, but I keep it restrained and the counter-reaction to that is masochism.
> I become sadistic and counter productive when I'm tired or drained.


Yeah, I figured. This is what I see in you. You're really sadist but it's self-directed. The reason why this is relevant is because I am trying to discern your function stack.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

> First I ask people close to me if it's a hard decision (or at least express what I'm thinking about doing)
> Then I consider if I think it's "right" to do it
> Then I think of what might be the consequence of the decision. (this is kinda a "lol" since I delude myself 90% of the time by thinking it will end better than it actually does)





Coyote said:


> Sounds like extraverted judgment.


You think so? Because he thinks of the consequences _after _deciding if it's _right _to do it? Sounds more like it's serving his Feeling judgement, (confirmation bias) rather than serving as an objective corrective measure.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

mimesis said:


> You think so? Because he thinks of the consequences _after _deciding if it's _right _to do it? Sounds more like it's serving his Feeling judgement, (confirmation bias) rather than serving as an objective corrective measure.


Well, we need to define what "right" means within this context. All of the judging functions have their own version, so I looked at the quote in the entirety. (It'd be useful to know what he actually meant by it, but I guess that I forgot to ask.)

This is how I read it:
Step 1. See if other people will tell me what I should do and/or whether they object to my plan. (Extraverted judgment.)
Step 2. Is this plan "right," within my framework of right and wrong? (I leaned toward T here because it sounded more like a logical consideration rather than a real feeling one.)
Step 3. What will likely happen if I do this? (Normal for any human who thinks beyond the next 5 minutes.)

And confirmation bias isn't limited to feeling. I'd say it's more likely with both of the introverted judging functions, since Jung specifically mentioned it in the Ti section.

But I'm not clear on why you classify this as confirmation bias. It seemed like he first looked around to see if there was anything he could use to make a decision.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Coyote said:


> Well, we need to define what "right" means within this context. All of the judging functions have their own version, so I looked at the quote in the entirety. (It'd be useful to know what he actually meant by it, but I guess that I forgot to ask.)
> 
> This is how I read it:
> Step 1. See if other people will tell me what I should do and/or whether they object to my plan. (Extraverted judgment.)
> ...


Because he says he deludes himself 90% of the time, projecting a positive outcome. That's why I think it serves more to confirm/support his decision rather than really think it over. 

If 'right' was a T judgement, why 'think' again about the consequences? That's like 'my head says this but my head says that'.

I think the external judgement can be both F and T, and possible consequences may be included. (say head and heart)

Then his heart decides. And his head confirms, to _feel _better about it.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Because he says he deludes himself 90% of the time, projecting a positive outcome. That's why I think it serves more to confirm his decision rather than really think it over.
> 
> If 'right' was a T judgement, why 'think' again about the consequences? That's like 'my head says this but my head says that'.
> 
> ...


Hmm. That's an interesting way to look at it. I wasn't quite sure how the optimism fit into the picture.

Which functions do you think he prefers?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> Doesn't sound like Fe. Why do you value honesty so much?


If I can't trust someone to be honest to me, how can I then trust their words?
It's like trusting a snake...
They will decide on their own what is the best for me without my consent.



> You mean that you won't stand alone with your opinion? Why not? Do you feel like your views aren't valid if other people don't agree? And/or do you want the approval/comfort of having the same opinions as the people around you?
> 
> I associate "talk[ing] like a lawyer" with Te. But it's not dominant, since you have a "startled" look. (I don't really know what that means, but I assume that it indicates discomfort of some sort. ... And, for the heck of it, I'll point out that I think it's interesting that you related your feelings by mentioning something S-related.)


At the moment of this I had declined to pay for tickets to a party that I didn't want to go to in the first place (I entered a twist because of misunderstanding).
I can't really act undiplomatic when I'm alone, I tend to agree on a common ground for both sides best interest, but if I got the majority of people in the vicinity on my side I feel more comfortable and almost a bit taunting to be undiplomatic (my ex complained that I keep saying "diplomatic" as if I really loved to throw that word around).



> What kinds of things do you like to learn? Why do you enjoy learning about 'em?


I like to learn new things in general and it doesn't really matter what.
I mostly like to learn of new theories or leaps in science.
But it isn't specific. 
Like most then I enjoy when people can describe me quite well.



> Why is it hard for you to trust people? How do you determine their level of loyalty?
> 
> Do you have a hard time being alone? If so, why?


I've had a lot of people turn against me and so I decided to make a loyalty system that scales based on time that they've known me and what they've done for me.

And I have a hard time being alone because I need some form of comfort and support which I don't have when I'm alone.



> Probably an issue with Se, but not necessarily. My younger brother is a strong Se user, and I still remember him _screaming_ on a kiddie roller coaster. He's now 23 and still gets scared on roller coasters, but he isn't even fazed by things like flipping his SUV. I don't get it. ::shakes head:: ... Are you afraid of heights?
> 
> Anyway, this isn't the only time that you've expressed an aversion to Se. But we already figured that you're not an SP, so it probably doesn't change much.


Yes, I am afraid of heights. :tongue:
Tho I am afraid a lot I sometimes do stupid things myself like paddling out on my father's wind surfing board (don't know if they are called that) out when there's high waves that are moving and smashing towards mountains on the sides.



> Interesting. ... This could be different things, though. Maybe you like getting feedback on your ideas, or you're working out the details as you think aloud, or you like hearing/seeing the words, etc.


yes, the ideas get refined when I say them.
Nothing sounds stupid in your head, it's first when you say them out loud that they do! :laughing:



> Do you keep everything with you so that you feel more prepared for things that might happen?
> 
> I hope that I'm not confusing you with someone else, but did you say somewhere that you like the way things look when they're neat? And if you don't do it, then you feel lazy? And that your mom yelled at you for not cleaning "correctly," so you didn't bother, but you've discovered that you actually kinda enjoy cleaning?
> 
> If that was you, it could indicate a tendency toward sensation. And if you are carrying around a bunch of stuff "just in case," that could reflect inferior Ne.


I exaggerated quite a bit in this, but I always have my backpack with me to school, filled with things for every possible scenario so that I'm never unprepared.
My room is really messy now...



> Hmm. Interesting. I didn't read anything like this on the current thread.
> 
> Could you please give an example or two? I'm curious about what kind of stuff you refuse to listen to, and what kinds of discussion might sway your opinions.


Well, at times I just simply dismiss what people are saying as irrelevant or I start to question it.
You can see it in most of the threads that I've tried to find my type.



> But I guess it depends on what kinds of things you're likely to say in this state, like whether they're your observations, feelings, ideas, etc. Could you please give some examples?


Ugh, it's such a foundation for me so it's hard.
It's a bit of everything. I can be incredibly open when I don't feel like I have anything to fear.
I'm more likely to express my dislike for certain things tho.
Being able to share and bounce ideas is also counted into this category.
Like I said, then I become really open both when it comes to give information and accept new information.



> So you end up aiming for a consensus? Do you feel like you don't stick to your opinions when you encounter resistance? I believe that you said something about that elsewhere, but I can't remember.


Yea, that and that I tend to change perspective from time to time and something that I strongly agreed with earlier might be something I strongly disagree with now.



> Why?


Because I feel vulnerable when I share it to more people than 1.
It's like when I'm diplomatic, except it's just me against the people present - meaning that if there's more than 1 I get less and less comfortable (depending on how close I consider them).



> Again, your fears of some unknown threat to the safety of you and your loved ones. I say it's inferior Ne.
> 
> As for coming up with an excuse or being bluntly honest ... lack of Fe? A strong Fe user seems more the type to "politely decline."


This is one of the things that I've changed my mind about.
I'd rather go the diplomatic road and come up with excuses to the point of where it turns into a ridiculous conversation in which case I might make it more blunt that it's actually a no and I won't change my opinion (but still attempting to do so that the other person won't leave offended).



> I dunno ... it kinda seems like a generic response, like you either use stress productively or you don't. ... By "shout outs," do you literally mean that you shout?


Yes and sometimes I make comments that are close to threats of self-harm (this is triggered in an argument).



> Only to you? How about to others?


Depends on how close the friend is.
If it's a close friend they will be treated by me like I treat myself.



> What does that mean? They're keeping you too busy?


It means things like going hiking and that kind of experiencing stuff :dry:



> So, you're not a fan of extraverted perceiving (especially Se)?


I have nothing against Ne, it's the Se people that I don't like.
I kinda dislike the Si people as well because a lot of them have a "it was better back in the days" attitude which I kinda dislike and I tend to disagree with ISJs about a lot of things.
We had a poll on one of the facebook groups (or rather a few polls) and I was always on the same side as most Ns.



> How would you prefer that she handled it?


Not to ask at all? lol
Well, anyways I like when people are being more focused on cooperation than everyone pulling an equal weight.



> What counts as "intellectual" to you?


Psychology, Theories and things in general that take a bit of a leap and aren't only one answer to.



> If you don't mind eating the same foods every day, why do you get annoyed about seeing the same thing twice? Is the latter an intellectual issue?


Well, you'll consume the food quite fast, but you need to go through the same scenes and stuff for the next hour if you're lucky.
And it's more that I like to have a new kind of "rush" which I get from movies and games (but not foods).



> Loyal and blunt makes me think of Te. What do you do that is passive-aggressive? Why do you do it instead of dealing with the problem directly? Are you sometimes afraid that being blunt will cause trouble?


I believe my tone in general is passive-aggressive/threatening.
I kinda speak with cliffhangers.
And I am kinda afraid that bluntness will cause trouble.
I want my point to come across, but I don't want trouble as an accessory.
I'm not much for dealing with problems either, I'm more of closing my eyes, humming and hoping that they will go away.



> I think that I'm finally seeing why people are bringing up Fe. You do seem to be quite concerned with social contact. Any idea why? Could it relate to the need for "security" that can be seen in Enneagram 6s?


It's more that I need that human "touch".
My need for security is expressed in other ways.
In some games I get pets so that I will always have at least pets around me.
Someone called me a bit of a "forever alone".



> Are those the parts that matter most to you?


It's something that generally happens and it annoys others because they don't understand the whole thing.
It came make me sound like the devil or angel of the story and cut out the "why".



> You also tend to just skim issues. I think I saw that Lea was getting annoyed with you for "avoiding" her questions, and I've felt like you didn't fully address some of my questions and comments. I don't think that it's intentional, but there's something frustrating about it. Like maybe you're not taking the time to really think about it? It seems more like Te than Ti. Ti will want to go into more depth to fully understand everything, while Te focuses more on being "productive." So when someone is only addressing the bare necessities or the "specific task at hand," as you phrased it, that makes me think Te.


Yes, I only read partially until I get what is being talked about.
It's my form of speed reading.
It's maybe a bit for efficiency as well.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Because he says he deludes himself 90% of the time, projecting a positive outcome. That's why I think it serves more to confirm/support his decision rather than really think it over.
> 
> If 'right' was a T judgement, why 'think' again about the consequences? That's like 'my head says this but my head says that'.
> 
> ...


My ex said something in the style of this (paraphrased), which also quite much is correct.
"You don't really seek a new opinion, you seek someone to confirm your opinion"

And that might be the case a lot of times, but I do respect a well based idea and take it under serious consideration (depending on how well the opinions were based).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Coyote said:


> Doesn't sound like either F function. ... And Ti might be up for a discussion, rather than just saying, "Don't question me!" There's something a little aggressive about it, like you assume that you're right. It seems most like Te.


Really? Like many Ti's, many Fi's just 'know' they're right. The difference being that with Ti's you get the chance to debate it, while many Fi's don't like disagreement, and many tend to take it personally. Mind you, this is a stereotype, but there's not very much debate/polemic or 'discours' on our forum, maybe except when it comes to positive or negative predispositions. Which in the end, is a 'belief'. You'll see many topics like '...is it just me?'

I know I risk being questioned my Fi ness for saying this. :shocked:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

> I have no idea how people got Ni out of that.


I believe they based it what I just said.



> My ex said something in the style of this (paraphrased), which also quite much is correct.
> "You don't really seek a new opinion, you seek someone to confirm your opinion"
> 
> And that might be the case a lot of times, but I do respect a well based idea and take it under serious consideration (depending on how well the opinions were based).


They believed Si/Ni dom because I'm usually quite set when it comes to how I view things and because I can be quite stubborn with how I view things.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

To make some more points that has some depth in them then I kinda recognize my dark side in the "Evil Queen"'s (convenient nickname) attitude in this clip (even if I could never have that dramatic voice, lol):




And I generally agree with her a lot throughout the season.
Kinda funny but yes, I find the evil queen to be more morally right than the "good" characters.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Coyote said:


> Hmm. That's an interesting way to look at it. I wasn't quite sure how the optimism fit into the picture.
> 
> Which functions do you think he prefers?


The difficult thing about this, I think, that it is difficult to judge when the person himself is ambivalent about it. 

I mean, how important are values, like 'truth' or 'kindness' when you don't trust someone? 

If you think you have to be blunt for being honest, but you don't like it when you are questioned by the people close to you, that's a bit inconsistent isn't it? 

I tend to think he is Fi, but it's not a steady framework yet. If you don't have a framework or a shaky one, most info from outside is chaos, because you cannot relate things and elaborate your experiences well into your system. It may even feel as hostile. Of course you try Fe and Ti, but it doesn't work that way for a Fi. It just drains energy. Fi's need to elaborate Fe in a Fi framework, not the other way round.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> The difficult thing about this, I think, that it is difficult to judge when the person himself is ambivalent about it.
> 
> I mean, how important are values, like 'truth' or 'kindness' when you don't trust someone?
> 
> ...


Trust is the basis of all relationships and without it there can be no relationship.
Hence, kindness, but especially truth is regulated by the level of trust.
I think I might be more honest with people I don't like because I usually make quite a few white lies and I don't care as much to make white lies to people I don't like or don't trust.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I tend to think he is Fi, but it's not a steady framework yet. If you don't have a framework or a shaky one, most info from outside is chaos, because you cannot relate things and elaborate your experiences well into your system. It may even feel as hostile. Of course you try Fe and Ti, but it doesn't work that way for a Fi. It just drains energy. Fi's need to elaborate Fe in a Fi framework, not the other way round.


I don't think he's Fi. His Ti is all over the place. You could make the same case for my Fi, that I just don't have a strong framework yet. In fact, it's true: since thinking through some of the big issues in my twenties and deciding what I believe the truth of them to be, I've developed more of an Fi value framework, and I'm more literate in my own feelings now than I've ever been in my life. But that doesn't make me an INFP. All types develop their values throughout their lives, so that by the time they're old they're hopefully wise to what's truly good and important and what isn't, but an Fi-dom does this nearly from birth. If Acer doesn't have a profound inner value structure by the age of 20 then he's not an Fi-dom. That's my understanding.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Trust is the basis of all relationships and without it there can be no relationship.
> Hence, kindness, but especially truth is regulated by the level of trust.
> I think I might be more honest with people I don't like because I usually make quite a few white lies and I don't care as much to make white lies to people I don't like or don't trust.


Do you see the inconsistency? 

See it like this, as long as you are not honest with the people who you like, you have reason not to fully trust the people close to you. Because you are not honest yourself.

I don't think you are dishonest for malicious reasons, rather for security reasons. But paradoxically you'll never feel safe that way.

Edit: hang on, can you re-read what you wrote there, pls?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I've been told that Si doms and people like that get nostalgia at times.
I only get it when I'm depressed or panicking (silently or otherwise) about new things.

A second thought is that if I annoy @LeaT by the way I write, I'm most likely not INP since they are quite alike.

Anyways, people seem to either hate me or like me, there's not really any grey zone on the negative side.
And for some reason then some tend to compare me to people close to them (like an INTJ friend of mine would keep comparing me to her INFJ husband).

Lastly, when I was younger, I was told that I was incredibly polite at a dinner with our relatives (I actually even got it from them).
I tend to be polite by nature when I'm in a good mood.
My politeness is strongly connected to my mood.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> I don't think he's Fi. His Ti is all over the place. You could make the same case for my Fi, that I just don't have a strong framework yet. In fact, it's true: since thinking through some of the big issues in my twenties and deciding what I believe the truth of them to be, I've developed more of an Fi value framework, and I'm more literate in my own feelings now than I've ever been in my life. But that doesn't make me an INFP. All types develop their values throughout their lives, so that by the time they're old they're hopefully wise to what's truly good and important and what isn't, but an Fi-dom does this nearly from birth. If Acer doesn't have a profound inner value structure by the age of 20 then he's not an Fi-dom. That's my understanding.


I agree, and like I said I have difficulty with Fi-dom. But he asked if he was INFP 16 months ago, and a week ago he was INFP, so I don't wanna rule that out if he hasn't ruled it out himself by this time.

He felt he was different than other INFPs on the forum, but that's different than the argument 'false persona' - drain of not feeling INFJ. 

But perhaps he doesn't want to be too blunt with me, lol! Anyway I can imagine what he thinks/feel about it and I know there are more INFPs who think that.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Do you see the inconsistency?
> 
> See it like this, as long as you are not honest with the people who you like, you have reason not to fully trust the people close to you. Because you are not honest yourself.
> 
> ...


Yea? What am I looking for?
I tend to prefer to be base my opinion of others based on their opinion of me.
If they give trust to me, I give trust to them.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

The course and tone of this thread are starting to remind me of the type-me thread a few weeks ago that went out to a few hundred posts. The person's Ne and Fe thrived on putting out new ideas and new information and interacting with others about them, and it just kept going and going and going. Guess what type she and they finally settled on? Here's a hint: Ne-Ti-Fe-Si.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I agree, and like I said I have difficulty with Fi-dom. But he asked if he was INFP 16 months ago, and a week ago he was INFP, so I don't wanna rule that out if he hasn't ruled it out himself by this time.


I thought I was both INTJ and INFJ for at least 9 of those months, lol.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> The course and tone of this thread is starting to remind me of the type-me thread a few weeks ago that went out to a few hundred posts. The person's Ne and Fe thrived on putting out new ideas and new information and interacting with others about them, and it just kept going and going and going. Guess what type she and they finally settled on? Here's a hint: Ne-Ti-Fe-Si.


I'm usually more "final" in the way I speak, but I'm honestly trying to just do this throughly for once.
Also, it all the Ne people here might be a partial cause of it as well :tongue:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> I don't think he's Fi. His Ti is all over the place. You could make the same case for my Fi, that I just don't have a strong framework yet. In fact, it's true: since thinking through some of the big issues in my twenties and deciding what I believe the truth of them to be, I've developed more of an Fi value framework, and I'm more literate in my own feelings now than I've ever been in my life. But that doesn't make me an INFP. All types develop their values throughout their lives, so that by the time they're old they're hopefully wise to what's truly good and important and what isn't, but an Fi-dom does this nearly from birth. If Acer doesn't have a profound inner value structure by the age of 20 then he's not an Fi-dom. That's my understanding.


If anything, then I'm at a point where I actually try to think about others than myself and I've started to realize that I'm not the victim in all discussions or disagreements.
I've entered a phase of "I was actually a bit of a jerk when I was younger" and "what can I do to get rid of that attitude".


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> I don't think he's Fi. His Ti is all over the place. You could make the same case for my Fi, that I just don't have a strong framework yet. In fact, it's true: since thinking through some of the big issues in my twenties and deciding what I believe the truth of them to be, I've developed more of an Fi value framework, and I'm more literate in my own feelings now than I've ever been in my life. But that doesn't make me an INFP. All types develop their values throughout their lives, so that by the time they're old they're hopefully wise to what's truly good and important and what isn't, but an Fi-dom does this nearly from birth. If Acer doesn't have a profound inner value structure by the age of 20 then he's not an Fi-dom. That's my understanding.


Also, I didn't mean that as an argument for being INFP, but more as an explanation if he was an INFP. And I am not saying he doesn't have values, but it's not a firm structure yet. 

Mine wasn't at the age of 20. Perhaps that was because I was so much screwed up, but I am happy to tell you that eventually it all worked out fine for me. =)


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I'm usually more "final" in the way I speak, but I'm honestly trying to just do this throughly for once.
> Also, it all the Ne people here might be a partial cause of it as well :tongue:


Although I'm mostly just teasing ya, my Se-Ti-Ni is really glad to hear that this is all for a purpose and we haven't lost sight of it. I like the sound of thoroughness, and I'm glad we're having fun because that's how you really get to know people, and I'm hoping we can help you settle it once and for all, Acer. 

You have a real point there about the amount of Ne in the people here. Now, where did that other Se user go? . . .


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> Although I'm mostly just teasing ya, my Se-Ti-Ni is really glad to hear that this is all for a purpose and we haven't lost sight of it. I like the sound of thoroughness, and I'm glad we're having fun because that's how you really get to know people, and I'm hoping we can help you settle it once and for all, Acer.
> 
> You have a real point there about the amount of Ne in the people here. Now, where did that other Se user go? . . .


haha *hug*
The Ne aux people are just spinning things around here, it's nice with a Se person to keep 'em on track :tongue: 
Tho at times like this I like the Ne spinning just as much :laughing:
(staying neutral on that until I'm certain of a type, lol)


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> A second thought is that if I annoy @_LeaT_ by the way I write, I'm most likely not INP since they are quite alike.


I can't address all of the posts right now, but I want to respond to this part. I didn't mean to suggest that you annoy her. I don't intend to speak for anyone else. I just thought that I saw her express frustration about the way you were answering her questions.

EDIT: ... Oops, one more thing.



Acerbusvenator said:


> haha *hug*
> The Ne aux people are just spinning things around here, it's nice with a Se person to keep 'em on track
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure that it's Ne that's spinning things around here? I kinda feel like we're re-treading the same ground and not making progress. ... And I only joined the thread around page 9 or 10. 

I'm not sure if Ne-aux people have much to do with it, honestly. My Ti just wants to solve the puzzle, and it's quite willing to debate the issues if need be. ... But Ne gets bored with running in circles because it needs fresh stuff to chew on, so it seems like Ne is more likely to make an INTP give up than it is to keep this thread going.

Of course, that's my personal opinion. YMMV. :tongue:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> I can't address all of the posts right now, but I want to respond to this part. I didn't mean to suggest that you annoy her. I don't intend to speak for anyone else. I just thought that I saw her express frustration about the way you were answering her questions.
> 
> EDIT: ... Oops, one more thing.
> 
> ...


haha, well it's completely possible that my willingness to to do this throughly and find a definite answer that everyone can agree on makes us run in circles.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> haha, well it's completely possible that my willingness to to do this throughly and find a definite answer that everyone can agree on makes us run in circles.


You don't need a unanimous, definite, fool-proof consensus. We're not here to _tell_ you what your type is. We can analyze the data and offer our opinions, but you're the one who's going to determine the final answer. 

... Are you willing to do that? It's perfectly fine if you need time to just "be yourself" without trying to pick a label. Maybe you've had so much trouble because you haven't really gotten in touch with who you are.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> You don't need a unanimous, definite, fool-proof consensus. We're not here to _tell_ you what your type is. We can analyze the data and offer our opinions, but you're the one who's going to determine the final answer.
> 
> ... Are you willing to do that? It's perfectly fine if you need time to just "be yourself" without trying to pick a label. Maybe you've had so much trouble because you haven't really gotten in touch with who you are.


Maybe, but in this point in my life I need a lot of external validation, hence I want a more definite response from people.

Now I'll sleep (just so you don''t need to think that I bailed).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> If anything, then I'm at a point where I actually try to think about others than myself and I've started to realize that I'm not the victim in all discussions or disagreements.
> I've entered a phase of "I was actually a bit of a jerk when I was younger" and "what can I do to get rid of that attitude".


That's why I said that self-pity and bluntness can coincide. Because you saw yourself as a victim (and you truly have been a victim, from the time you became aware of yourself), you didn't see the jerk in you. (meaning with blunt in this case, in the sense of not taking into consideration, not so much the 'honesty' part)

Anyway I am happy to see you are coming out of that self-absorption, whatever type you are. :happy:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I've been told that Si doms and people like that get nostalgia at times.
> I only get it when I'm depressed or panicking (silently or otherwise) about new things.
> 
> A second thought is that if I annoy @_LeaT_ by the way I write, I'm most likely not INP since they are quite alike.
> ...


The only thing you annoy me with is your insistence on deflecting questions and refusing to take a stance even when I provide you with only two answers to pick between  Which speaks for Fe use by the way, not Te or Fi. 

As for the whole deal about nostalgia when depressed: would that not speak for inferior or tertiary Si? Inferior is more likely than tertiary. 

As for hating or loving, I know the feeling :tongue: A lot of people seem to have mixed feelings about me already despite my short stay on PersC  I think that is more enneagram reflection than anything else.

Sometimes you do seem to write like an INFJ though, but again, not seeing the Ne or Se that could back this up... At this point I am considering NeFe loop for you. Your need to people please is through the roof, but appears to be somewhat unhealthy.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Yea? What am I looking for?
> I tend to prefer to be base my opinion of others based on their opinion of me.
> If they give trust to me, I give trust to them.


No it's ok. I thought you may have meant did in stead of didn't somewhere. Just wanted to check that before calling you inconsistent. ;-) So, yeah I find it inconsistent. 

Personally, I tend to be more honest and straightforward the more someone is close to me, and it's easier for me to lie (little white lies) to whom I don't give a fk about. I would like people close to me to be truthful to me, even when they disagree. I think that is important if you want to build (and rely on eachother) in a relationship and to make a commitment.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

My idea is partially that since I am 20, my auxiliary function is still immature, but trying to bloom.
I've been afraid that I'd give people a feeling that they just wasted ther time, hence I didn't give my opinion.
Anyways, if I'm not mistaken, then my need for external acceptance etc. might have to do with an extroverted function developing.
Since my new found perspective has been more of a Fe like realization "I was a real jerk" rather than the Te realization that humanity is stupid. tongue.

I believe I got a more of pretend hate towards Se.
I might not accept it, but I like new feelings which might be Se (like how I only could watch a movie or play through a game one because I wanted that rush of experiencing something new).
The times in which I could eat the same food over and over again was when I was depressed, but on the other hand, I ate pizza and toast during that time and I love the taste of both.
I also want to skydive.

I also scored high on intrapersonal Intelligence which could be why I can understand when I've manipulated someone.

Does it make sense? (I wrote this on my phone, so I can't double check).
This is just my take on it, but I don't see it as final, rather as adding of information.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> My idea is partially that since I am 20, my auxiliary function is still immature, but trying to bloom.
> I've been afraid that I'd give people a feeling that they just wasted ther time, hence I didn't give my opinion.
> Anyways, if I'm not mistaken, then my need for external acceptance etc. might have to do with an extroverted function developing.
> Since my new found perspective has been more of a Fe like realization "I was a real jerk" rather than the Te realization that humanity is stupid. tongue.
> ...





May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
May perceive criticism where none was intended
May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
May be oblivious to other people's need
May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them

Didn't you read about these when you thought you were an INFP?

By the way, I see you are in a transformative phase, so this may be more the past than present. And of course, these are stereotypes and could apply to persons of other types as well. Point being, if the change you mention was Fe, then how could a Fi change the above? I agree you develop Fe, but it's within a Fi framework/awareness. It's not that you learned that you shouldn't be a jerk. You became conscious or aware you had been (_actually_) (when you thought you were a victim).


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

mimesis said:


> May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
> May perceive criticism where none was intended
> May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
> May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
> ...


You keep doing this but I would kind of like to ask you to stop. Do you even understand the difference between Fe and Te sensitivity? I would assume that you don't. It's apparent based on what @Acerbusvenator has told us thus far that he's actually Fe sensitive. Fe sensitivity means that you are sensitive to how others make you feel and how others feel. *The feelings of incompetency has to do with feelings and human social behavior*. Te sensitivity on the other hand, has to do with feelings of inadequacy and inefficiency and an overall feeling of being incompetent in a more intelligent manner. Where have you seen him complain about feeling stupid? Trying to fix social relationships he perceives to be failing without thinking it through and so on?

Nowhere. Because it doesn't exist. He does use Te quite a fair bit I'd say, and that speaks even further against Te being his inferior. I am beginning to notice a trend where you are trying to shoehorn people into INFPs because you for some reason fail to see your own personal bias. Stop project on others. Just because a specific behavior may appear as similar to that of an INFP it does not necessarily make one an INFP. 

Also, Fe does not exclude Fi. I developed my Fi like crazy when I was a teenager, way before I am developing my Fe (very obviously so. My Fe's at the rock bottom of my function stacking with Se). My Fi is my third most developed function and I am proud of my Fi. (That's Fi talking.) If he can, so can I. 

And please explain what you mean with Fe within an Fi framework. Could it not as well be a Ti framework that you are not seeing because Ti is his hidden auxiliary in an NeFe loop? He's quite similar to @Title. I was thinking of that the other day. He's doing almost the same thing.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@Acerbusvenator
Let's see. Making one consolidated post for the whole of this thread will probably take a lot of my time, so I'll post as I read.

I've read till Page 3 for now, and I see a lot of inferior/tertiary Fe. It was rather evident from the OP itself.

The conversation you had with your INTJ friend could indicate that Fe is probably in the tertiary because to some extent, I believe you care about developing it at least a bit.

Also...this is a vibe I get from your writing (and I trust those because they are usually correct) but you seem to be in denial about something. It makes sense now that I say it. Gaining energy from negativity, cynicism, and by crushing your opposition - while some people do gain energy that way, it doesn't seem right for you. You seem to be repressing some part of yourself a lot. Probably your Fe. Why don't you try improving on it a bit?

Also, in the OP you mentioned that you are a whiner when it comes to physical work. This could be indicative of Si because Si tends to prefer comfort and reliability more so than Se, but meh, that could be too general an observation.

You _could_ also, alternatively, be a negative ISFJ with a Si-Ti loop.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I am beginning to suspect you might have some other problems more than just not being able to figure out your functions based on this post.
> 
> While I can reocgnize some of it of what you describe, have you ever been tested for Aspbergers or highly functional autism? They might have issues remembering faces, making such memory connections etc.
> 
> Although I can second the deal about being poor at remembering peoples' names. I suffer from the same issue. It could point towards inferior Si or something else entirely. Anyway, at this point I would recommend checking this out. It clearly poses to be a problem when it comes to your social interaction in general.


 @Acerbusvenator
Just thought I should make an observation on the difference between Ti and Te. Unsure if applicable.

Ti constantly compares new data with internal frameworks. In this case, Lea asking if you have Asperger's because the data in hand suits the Asperger's framework.

I didn't make the same observation about you because all I'm concerned with is what your type is and not what mental affliction you may have.

In that sense, I believe Ti is better suited to multiple processing.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Something that I think might have to do with weak Ti is that I never or seldom use evidence to back things up.
> I tend to share my opinion without evidence and expect it to have the same degree of consideration as if it was fact.
> 
> It's usually based on facts and then I've filled the gaps with assumptions, but if I'm asked to pull it up, I become close to stunned.


Isn't giving evidence indicative of _Te_?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Another thing that might be good to know is that I feel obliged for example to watch a chat that I'm in or a post/thread that I've made so that I can answer as soon as possible if anyone responds.


I do the same thing. So do a lot of other people. What's important is _why_ you do that.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> I do the same thing. So do a lot of other people. What's important is _why_ you do that.


I guess you could say that it's because I've made it and I'm responsible for it.
And I actually watch it more like an obsession. :laughing:


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I guess you could say that it's because I've made it and I'm responsible for it.
> And I actually watch it more like an obsession. :laughing:


Hm. I do it because I want to know as much as possible, as fast as possible. Your motivation seems different - that confirms what I had in mind too. Okay.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I like action-packed and fast phased games and movies. I like things that always feel like they are moving.
It isn't always the case tho since I liked the show "Once Upon A Time" which is more focused on making connections and understanding the "grand perspective", which is something I usually do quite well. I seldom have issues piecing things together in my mind.
I don't think I got much depth of understanding tho, it's more of just understanding the whole of what has been said and what has happened.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Ha cancer sign. Same as me. Then moving away distresses you. And much of your values are related to friends.
> 
> I believe INFPs come to flourish a bit later, so in that case you would still be on schedule. =)


If he really is a Cancerian that might skew any Thinking-type results :/
All Cancerians don't have friends-related values. He seems to, though.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Alright. This thread is frankly very exhausting because there's endless information being added, again and again, so perhaps I will return after I gather my energy again.

If I had to guess from the first few pages I would say ENTP or ISFJ in Si-Ti loop. 

Whatever type you are, @Acerbusvenator, I suggest you work on your Fe. You definitely need to. I get the feeling that your sadistic tendencies are not natural. If they do feel natural to you, then perhaps you should consider ENTP because some ENTPs have a repressed attitude similar to the one you display.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> And please explain what you mean with Fe within an Fi framework. Could it not as well be a Ti framework that you are not seeing because Ti is his hidden auxiliary in an NeFe loop? He's quite similar to @_Title_. I was thinking of that the other day. He's doing almost the same thing.


Yes, that could also be possible. I mean, if you say so. It seems to me that INFP and INTP are similar in that way, you said something similar on our forum. 



> "I assume an INFP is like an INTP in that you too like to build large and complex systems but whereas the INTP system is built upon facts and data about the world and the system is objective, the INFP builds a system based on the facts and data generated by people in order to make sense of the world and build internal value systems that chime in according to the data.
> 
> INFPs build subjective value systems and INTPs build objective (value) systems.
> 
> I'm currently very strongly in tune with my Fi today so I can kind of understand what goes on in the INFP mind."


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

This is all getting so confusing. We need to come up with a list of possible types for Acer and everyone should quote it with an X next to what they think his type is. *Most X's = Acer's type. *DONE.

Put any reasoning beneath a spoiler tag or something. 

Okay here goes.

*INTP 
ENTP * X*
ISTP  
INFJ 
ISFJ * x

Putting X/x on both ENTP and ISFJ because I'm not sure yet. If you believe he's a type that isn't on this list, add it to the list and put an X against it if you wish.

If you aren't sure, use a big X for most likely type and small x for less likely type.

Don't make a separate list because then it will be necessary to consolidate the lists again.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> This is all getting so confusing. We need to come up with a list of possible types for Acer and everyone should quote it with an X next to what they think his type is. *Most X's = Acer's type. *DONE.
> 
> Put any reasoning beneath a spoiler tag or something.
> 
> ...


So Te of you XD Data must be quantified :crazy:

Don't see Si dominance in him though, unless in Ne grip. On the other hand, his attitude of wanting to run away and get away from problems is so Ne dom and I can relate a lot to that personally, because of my Si supression. His thinking is not consistent with ISFJ in my opinion. ISFJs in the grip tend to become paranoid, assume the worst case scenarios, be scatter-minded and feeling like the world is rushing ahead without them and they can't keep up. SiTi loop tends to lead to apathy and a schizoid personality as well. Something I know a bit too well. Sitting in your room all day, doing nothing and feeling incapable of bothering or caring about anything is typical to SiTi think. There's a Swedish book called "I don't want to live, I just don't want to die" and I feel the title sums up the SiTi mindset quite well. (If you can't relate, well, you're not likely an ISFJ/INTP and consider yourself lucky of not having experienced a serious SiTi loop XD)

If anything, I am fairly sure I am seeing NeFe looping here with all this constant deflection and a somewhat insistent refusal to introspect so you can express your own opinions. Easier to get along and please with Ne and Fe. 


@memesis I only call out people if I feel they are obfuscating current information. I don't mind you helping _per se_, but you seem to always zone in on the INFP profile by default without truly researching or looking into how the person you are typing actually thinks. Remember that entire argument we had about Amaterasu not using Ne but Ni? Yes, stuff like that. 

I don't see evidence for inferior Te and dominant Fi. It's not that I am trying to be unreasonable, but I'd like more thoruogh reasoning and more evidence to back up your claims than you seem to do.

EDIT
Wanted to clarify what I meant with ISFJs feeling the world is running ahead without them - the Ne user on the hand, especially Ne doms, might feel the opposite. They want to rush ahead in front of the world, because if they stop they feel that the world is going pull or hold them back somehow.

Si doms on the other hand might feel that they have to keep up with the speed of the world which is what leads to rushed thinking, faulty decision-making and so forth.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I am beginning to notice a trend where you are trying to shoehorn people into INFPs because you for some reason fail to see your own personal bias. Stop project on others. Just because a specific behavior may appear as similar to that of an INFP it does not necessarily make one an INFP.


So two times is a trend? Anyway, Acer asked me to join and to be honest I am not so much in favor of 'type me' threads. But we are friends since yesterday, so I must be doing something good I guess. 

If you really paid attention, I actually had problems with him being Fi dom, for most of the thread. Then he said certain things that made me start think different about it. For instance his anwers to @Coyote.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> So Te of you XD Data must be quantified :crazy:
> 
> Don't see Si dominance in him though, unless in Ne grip. On the other hand, his attitude of wanting to run away and get away from problems is so Ne dom and I can relate a lot to that personally, because of my Si supression. His thinking is not consistent with ISFJ in my opinion. ISFJs in the grip tend to become paranoid, assume the worst case scenarios, be scatter-minded and feeling like the world is rushing ahead without them and they can't keep up. SiTi loop tends to lead to apathy and a schizoid personality as well. Something I know a bit too well. Sitting in your room all day, doing nothing and feeling incapable of bothering or caring about anything is typical to SiTi think. There's a Swedish book called "I don't want to live, I just don't want to die" and I feel the title sums up the SiTi mindset quite well. (If you can't relate, well, you're not likely an ISFJ/INTP and consider yourself lucky of not having experienced a serious SiTi loop XD)
> 
> ...


Actually, I can agree quite well to the Si dom thinking.
It's a bit like the feeling of sitting on a high speed train.
You know you're moving, but it feels like you're not entirely along for the ride, a bit like a part of you is trying to stay back in the comfort zone.
To put it in spiritual terms.
My body is moving, but not my soul.

The reason that I'm getting depressed is because there's so many changes in my life and even if I want to think that it will be alright, I am overwhelmed by a feeling that I'm at the end of what I once knew and now I'm entering something that I've never been through, uncharted territory.

But I believe most people got problems dealing with changes, mine are just focused on comfort and safety (which is something you lose when you move a long way from home, around 600 kilometers in my case from home).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @memesis I only call out people if I feel they are obfuscating current information. I don't mind you helping _per se_, but you seem to always zone in on the INFP profile by default without truly researching or looking into how the person you are typing actually thinks. Remember that entire argument we had about Amaterasu not using Ne but Ni? Yes, stuff like that.


You have a problem with objectivity. You shouldn't use 'always' a Ti should know that.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Okey, @mimesis and @LeaT you don't need to make a fight out of this.
You got different opinions, but fighting doesn't really help me find my type.
Unless you do a fight over facts that is... 
Fact fights can a lot of times show information that you didn't think about before.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

LeaT said:


> So Te of you XD Data must be quantified :crazy:
> 
> EDIT
> Wanted to clarify what I meant with ISFJs feeling the world is running ahead without them - the Ne user on the hand, especially Ne doms, might feel the opposite. They want to rush ahead in front of the world, because if they stop they feel that the world is going pull or hold them back somehow.
> ...


I agree with what you say about Si doms. My ISTJ friend does the same thing.

I knew you would call me out on the Te thing :laughing:


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> But I believe most people got problems dealing with changes, mine are just focused on comfort and safety (which is something you lose when you move a long way from home, around 600 kilometers in my case from home).


When did you broke up with your gf, Acer?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

mimesis said:


> When did you broke up with your gf, Acer?


Over 2 months ago :tongue:


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Over 2 months ago :tongue:


These changes can also be a catalyst. I mean there's a positive side.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I could probably keep this going for a while, but it might be better if we start to pin down my type instead of just considering every possible type.

I am quite sure at this moment that I'm at least IFJ, don't know which tho.
Reason for me saying that is because a lot of what I do is about other people and focus on treating others fairly or at least caring about others. Both those makes mt think it's F over T and Fe over Fi making me FJ.
And I'm developing extrovertness and social grace now which would suggest that Fe is auxiliary.

When it comes to Si vs Ni, then I don't have much more than circumstantial evidence.

*Ni + Se*
I like to get details and then make a larger picture whereas if I had Ne I wouldn't be as focused on the details, but rather more on expanding the idea. (note that the reason why this thread is so long isn't something natural to me, I'm actually known for ending conversations.)

I got some pretend hate towards Se, but I can accept physical work if the atmosphere where I am working is cooperative and not the "well what have you done?" attitude (which might be more of a Fe thing).

I'm really slow moving until it's night (or that I'm tired) which could suggest a more efficient inferior or tertiary function (such as Se or Te).

When I argue, I might base some things on what has been said, but I outmaneuver my INTP friend (and also an ENTJ guy) in discussions because I adapt to the moment and make them talk against themselves.

One of the descriptions of Ni is that it can see things from different sides. My way of "seeing both sides of an FPs values" might have to do with Ni rather than a T or FP. I also use this in discussions as an advantage since I understand the significance of the arguments of my opposition, I can just choose to use it against them at times or know when to give up.

*Si + Ne*

I like to stay in a comfort zone of what I know.

I got good memory of what has been said which is something I use in debates and such.

I tend to see things as the worst case scenario, even if it doesn't always mean that I panic about it.

I panic when I do things that I'm not used to etc.

I can remember tastes really well, even if I don't always know from where.

I can't watch the same movie or play the same game again the same way and find it fun. If I've done it, it's boring.

(sorry, I just can't think of good enough arguments for being a Si dom since it's quite new for me)

Btw. in one of my games I was driving around with a pink car just to antagonize my friend who was playing with me (who's character looked like a big baby in it)
And in Minecraft I once did a really big male reproductive system just because the same guy had some fear at the time for everything that could be interpreted as sexual.
And yes, I like messing with other peoples' fears.
mmmm.... walking around with a spider on a stick.... roud: (you can guess what happened when the girls saw it)


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I could probably keep this going for a while, but it might be better if we start to pin down my type instead of just considering every possible type.


Personality-type can be a handsome tool for soul-searching. But it's perfectly possible to do without. Al you need to do is look inside you and look around you. I think you have been looking too much inside you. So you need to start looking around you, and like I said I am happy to see you entered that phase. 

One reason why I am not so much in favor of these kind of threads is that the whole trick is to know yourself. In the end you know best. Decide for yourself and carry that responsibility. It's a type not your identity. So I am telling you things from an INFP point of view, and it's for you to decide if you can relate to that. I can't tell you what it is to be a different type, aside from learned stereotypes, and sometimes some persons I know. But aside from type, people come in many flavors, so there's different types of INTJs and different types of ENTPs. It also depends on the maturity of the person. 

Personality type is also useful to learn from other types. I learned from different kinds of people, without knowing their type but it's not likely they were all INFPs. I have learned by pushing myself to do things that were sometimes almost opposite of me. I was introvert, and chose to do public jobs. Each new job scared the shit out of me, and I wasn't sure I could do it, but I rose to the occasion. You'll never turn into an extrovert, but you learn to pull a switch in crowded places. 

Personality type theory can also narrow your view and become prejudiced. It's just a tool. I don't need to decide what you are, I like you anyway, and if you have any questions about INFP, don't hesitate to PM me. If you are interested in other theories, I recommend attachment theory. 

Good luck, Acer! :wink:


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I could probably keep this going for a while, but it might be better if we start to pin down my type instead of just considering every possible type.
> 
> I am quite sure at this moment that I'm at least IFJ, don't know which tho.
> Reason for me saying that is because a lot of what I do is about other people and focus on treating others fairly or at least caring about others. Both those makes mt think it's F over T and Fe over Fi making me FJ.
> ...


Unfortunately, those descriptions are more like stereotypes and not necessarily related. Ni-dom doesn't suit you, but Si-dom would be an option.

Do you remember the summaries that I gave earlier in the thread? Those are true to Jung's original type descriptions, and would be the most useful in determining your dominant function. (Unless you're willing to read the original text.) When you read those and had to pick between Ni and Si, you chose the latter.

For your convenience, I'm gonna just re-post them here.



> Introverted intuition is directed inward to the contents of the unconscious. It attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality.
> 
> According to Jung, the introverted intuition type can be either an artist, seer or crank. Such a person has a visionary ideal that reveals strange, mysterious things. These are enigmatic, 'unearthly' people who stand aloof from ordinary society. They have little interest in explaining or rationalizing their personal vision, but are content merely to proclaim it. Partly as a result of this, they are often misunderstood. Although the vision of the artist among this type generally remains on the purely perceptual level, mystical dreamers or cranks may become caught up in theirs. The person's life then becomes symbolic, taking on the nature of a Great Work, mission or spiritual-moral quest. If neurotic, repressed sensation may express itself in primitive, instinctual ways and, like their extraverted counterparts, introverted intuitives often suffer from hypochondria and compulsions.





> Introverted sensation is subjectively filtered. Perception is not based directly on the object, but is merely suggested by it. Instead, layers of subjective impressions are superimposed upon the image so that it becomes impossible to determine what will be perceived from a knowledge only of the object. Perception thus depends crucially upon internal psychological processes that will differ from one person to the next. At its most positive, introverted sensation is found in the creative artist. At its most extreme, it produces psychotic hallucinations and a total alienation from reality.
> 
> The introverted sensation type reacts subjectively to events in a way that is unrelated to objective criteria. Often this is seen as an inappropriate and uncalled-for overreaction. Because objects generally fail to penetrate directly the veil of subjective impressions, this type may seem neutral or indifferent to objective reality. Alternatively, the person may perceive the world as illusory or amusing. In extreme (psychotic) cases, this may result in an inability to distinguish illusion from reality. The subjective world of archaic images may then come to dominate consciousness completely, so that the person lives in a private, mythological realm of fantasy. Repressed intuition may also be expressed in vaguely imagined threats or an apprehension of sinister possibilities.


If you have any questions or want to discuss why you do or don't relate to those descriptions, I'd be happy to help. I could also give you direct quotes from _Psychological Types_, if you'd find it useful.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I got his book "psychological types".
I agree more with his description of Ni than Si.
Si for him seems to be more the subjective familiarity of an object (getting a subjective impression from an object, which doesn't give an impression on it's own).

I could copy all the pages about Ni and Si from the book but that would take some time...
It's like 5 pages per function or more @[email protected]

Also, I'm impulsive and he said that's something that's more common amongst the introvert intuitive...
I got a bit of an obsession for finalizing things (impulsive, but in better words :tongue.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I got his book "psychological types".
> I agree more with his description of Ni than Si.
> Si for him seems to be more the subjective familiarity of an object (getting a subjective impression from an object, which doesn't give an impression on it's own).
> 
> ...


Yeah, it would take forever to type all that stuff up. :tongue: I do that when I want to make sure that things are phrased correctly, since the online translations can have issues. But since we're both familiar with the "good" versions, I think that we'd be okay working with an online copy for cutting and pasting. (I'd really like to understand your interpretation of what he's saying.) How about this one? Psychological Types - Wikisocion


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> Yeah, it would take forever to type all that stuff up. :tongue: I do that when I want to make sure that things are phrased correctly, since the online translations can have issues. But since we're both familiar with the "good" versions, I think that we'd be okay working with an online copy for cutting and pasting. (I'd really like to understand your interpretation of what he's saying.) How about this one? Psychological Types - Wikisocion


Yea, that looks like the real version.
Or at least the book version.



> The priority of introverted sensation produces a definite type, which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type, inasmuch as its selection among occurrences is not primarily rational, but is guided rather by what just happens. Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus.


vs



> The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and—in the case of a productive artist—the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle.


It was actually harder to find a good place to cut his explanation of Ni than for Si, lol.
I sometimes have a hard time to understand what he's saying but I believe some of what he says is:
Si: Get a feeling of familiarity and intense emotions based on experience with the object, or objects like it.
Ni: Sometimes recognized as being aloof or detached.

I got a picture of a young tiger in my room that I got when I was young, I don't get any feeling of nostalgia by looking at it... I just still think that it looks nice. :kitteh:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I believe this is an even better explanation of Sensation vs Intuition



> Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervation disturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the cooperation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person.


I definitely agree with this definition of intuition.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> It was actually harder to find a good place to cut his explanation of Ni than for Si, lol.
> I sometimes have a hard time to understand what he's saying but I believe some of what he says is:
> Si: Get a feeling of familiarity and intense emotions based on experience with the object, or objects like it.
> Ni: Sometimes recognized as being aloof or detached.
> ...


I think that you're still bringing MBTI stereotypes into this. Where does Jung say that introverted sensation makes you feel nostalgic when you look at something?



> The priority of introverted sensation produces a definite type, which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type, inasmuch as its selection among occurrences is not primarily rational, but is guided rather by what just happens. Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus.


What that means is that an Si-dom would be most affected by his internal reactions to stimuli, rather than the external object directly determining his reactions to it (Se).

So, like here:


> When it comes to this picture, then I like it because of the calmness it gives me and I like how the waves are slowly moving towards land. It reminds me of when I was younger and my family had a boat. It feels a bit like home (even tho I seldom feel comfortable outside a high-tech area).


You see some water, and it feels like home. How did you get from A to B? 

The feeling of "home" certainly wasn't in the picture itself, but was instead determined by your subjective reaction to it. That's why Si has the stereotype for being nostalgic, because it's like a personal filter. 



> The peculiar nature of introverted intuition, when given the priority, also produces a peculiar type of man, viz. the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other. The latter might be regarded as the normal case, since there is a general tendency of this type to confine himself to the perceptive character of intuition. As a rule, the intuitive stops at perception; perception is his principal problem, and—in the case of a productive artist—the shaping of perception. But the crank contents himself with the intuition by which he himself is shaped and determined. Intensification of intuition naturally often results in an extraordinary aloofness of the individual from tangible reality; he may even become a complete enigma to his own immediate circle.


Could you please explain why you relate to this? 

I think that you might be giving Ni all the credit that belongs to both of the introverted irrational functions (Si and Ni). Like with this: "Ni: Sometimes recognized as being aloof or detached." ... That's what you got out of the Ni section? How about the fascination with archetypes, etc.?

You might find this useful:


> The two types just depicted are almost inaccessible to external judgment. Because they are introverted and have in consequence a somewhat meagre capacity or willingness for expression, they offer but a frail handle for a telling criticism. Since their main activity is directed within, nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, or uncertainty, and an apparently groundless perplexity. When anything does come to the surface, it usually consists in indirect manifestations of inferior and relatively unconscious functions. Manifestations of such a nature naturally excite a certain environmental prejudice against these types. Accordingly they are mostly underestimated, or at least misunderstood. To the same degree as they fail to understand themselves—because they very largely lack judgment—they are also powerless to understand why they are so constantly undervalued by public opinion. They cannot see that their outward-going expression is, as a matter of fact, also of an inferior character. Their vision is enchanted by the abundance of subjective events. What happens there is so captivating, and of such inexhaustible attraction, that they do not appreciate the fact that their habitual communications to their circle express very, little of that real experience in which they themselves are, as it were, caught up. The fragmentary and, as a rule, quite episodic character of their communications make too great a demand upon the understanding and good will of their circle; furthermore, their mode of expression lacks that flowing warmth to the object which alone can have convincing force. On the contrary, these types show very often a brusque, repelling demeanour towards the outer world, although of this they are quite unaware, and have not the least intention of showing it.


... And so on. That quote is from the section, "Recapitulation of Introverted Irrational Types," which means that it applies to both Ni and Si.



> Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervation disturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the cooperation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person.


Would you mind explaining this part in your own words and give an example of why you relate to it?


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@Coyote
Your signature is too cute.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> I think that you're still bringing MBTI stereotypes into this. Where does Jung say that introverted sensation makes you feel nostalgic when you look at something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was at see for the first time when I was extremely young and we've been out with our boat for every year until we sold it.
When I said that it was like a home, then I said it so that another person would be able to relate to it. It was more of a metaphor for why I felt that it gave a comforting feeling.

I did also explain that I can't understand all that he's writing. It's a bit over my knowledge of English.

I have many times as well been more focused on the why than the what and my ISTJ father has been more focused on the what than the why. That was one of the reasons that I felt like the description of intuition in the last quote fits me quite well.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> @_Coyote_
> Your signature is too cute.


I'm hoping that it'll soften up my posts. ... I need all the help I can get. :tongue:


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I was at see for the first time when I was extremely young and we've been out with our boat for every year until we sold it.
> When I said that it was like a home, then I said it so that another person would be able to relate to it. It was more of a metaphor for why I felt that it gave a comforting feeling.


The fact that you got a "comforting feeling" from a picture of water is part of the point. And you used "home" as a metaphor so that people could relate to your subjective reaction, since there didn't seem to be a better way to communicate your perceptions. ... So, kinda like this?



> In general, this type can organize his impressions only in archaic ways, because thinking and feeling are relatively unconscious and, if conscious at all, have only the most necessary, banal, everyday means of expression. As conscious functions, they are wholly incapable of adequately reproducing his subjective perceptions.


(That was from the Si section.)



> I did also explain that I can't understand all that he's writing. It's a bit over my knowledge of English.


Do you mean that English isn't your first language, or just that you have trouble reading Jung? His writing _is_ a bit dense.



> I have many times as well been more focused on the why than the what and my ISTJ father has been more focused on the what than the why. That was one of the reasons that I felt like the description of intuition in the last quote fits me quite well.


Have you considered the possibility that your father isn't a true Si-dom? Comparing yourself to him could lead you seriously astray.

That last quote fit you well because you tend to focus on "why" instead of "what"? ... Hmm. Could you please give me an example or two? You seem to dread them, but it really helps to identify any differences in definitions and interpretations.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

@_Amaterasu_ Way to take charge and organize this data, INTJ. 

I'm settled on ENTP in a bit of an Ne-Fe loop with plenty of previous experience in Si grip. (I'll post my reasoning soon when I have a few more minutes.)

My brother is an ISFJ. I've known him through some terrible Ne grips times and he's exactly as @_LeaT_ describes. He's all over the place, can't keep up with himself, and can't slow down, either. Whatever monster it is, it's not my brother. I've known him through Si-Ti loops, too, and I prefer those because they're much closer to normal for him. At his best (like now), he's calm, sweet, steady, and thoughtful. I think Acer is just the opposite. I mean, he is very sweet  , but I don't think he's ISFJ. The first thing I saw in him was ISFJ in Si-Ti loop, based on things he reported about what he has been like in the past. Then the thread continued, I saw inconsistencies with ISFJ, saw him sounding more and more like a real Ne-dom, and in fact a typical (not stereotypical!) ENTP. Ne-inferior doesn't match up for him. Si-inferior does. ENTP is my final answer.



> This is all getting so confusing. We need to come up with a list of possible types for Acer and everyone should quote it with an X next to what they think his type is. Most X's = Acer's type. DONE.
> 
> Put any reasoning beneath a spoiler tag or something.
> 
> ...


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Coyote said:


> The fact that you got a "comforting feeling" from a picture of water is part of the point. And you used "home" as a metaphor so that people could relate to your subjective reaction, since there didn't seem to be a better way to communicate your perceptions. ... So, kinda like this?


Wouldn't say that since it seems to say that I can't express it.



> Do you mean that English isn't your first language, or just that you have trouble reading Jung? His writing _is_ a bit dense.


Both :tongue:



> Have you considered the possibility that your father isn't a true Si-dom? Comparing yourself to him could lead you seriously astray.


I considered the possibility of him being ISTP, but he's too focused on upholding "the honor of his father" and stuff like that. Like he won't fight back against his sister's husband because he made a promise to his father. (I personally found that quite ridiculous of him)



> That last quote fit you well because you tend to focus on "why" instead of "what"? ... Hmm. Could you please give me an example or two? You seem to dread them, but it really helps to identify any differences in definitions and interpretations.


Maybe I didn't use the correct words.
I'm more focused on the larger picture than the details.
I had an argument with an American about the war between America and Iran and I asked him who made the first blow (the why) and he tried to defend his view by pointing out the bombardment on American military bases, but I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in the source, the "why", the reason for all being like it is.

Have to do some stuff now.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> @_Amaterasu_ Way to take charge and organize this data, INTJ.


In this thread full of P's, someone had to do it :laughing:


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Coyote said:


> Do you mean that English isn't your first language, or just that you have trouble reading Jung? His writing _is_ a bit dense.


I'm amazed by the mastery of English by the non-native English speakers here. (At least, I'm assuming LeaT and Mimesis aren't native speakers, either.) Every Dutch person I've ever met (and I've met dozens) speaks English like a pro, but I'm just really grateful that Acerbusvenator and LeaT haven't slipped into Swedish here.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Wouldn't say that since it seems to say that I can't express it.


It's saying that you wouldn't be able to express it clearly, and would need to rely on everyday forms of expression to get your point across. Even when you say "home," you're still relying on something subjective, like the sense of comfort that you derive from the familiarity and safety of being in your home. You just swapped in a word to represent another subjective perception, but it's a useful one because most people are familiar with it. 



Acerbusvenator said:


> Both :tongue:


Have you looked for a different translation of _PT_, maybe one in your mother tongue? It can be tough even on native English speakers.



Acerbusvenator said:


> I considered the possibility of him being ISTP, but he's too focused on upholding "the honor of his father" and stuff like that. Like he won't fight back against his sister's husband because he made a promise to his father. (I personally found that quite ridiculous of him)


What about that says real Si? Sounds more like a Te-dom who's become a slave to his "formula."



Acerbusvenator said:


> Maybe I didn't use the correct words.
> I'm more focused on the larger picture than the details.
> I had an argument with an American about the war between America and Iran and I asked him who made the first blow (the why) and he tried to defend his view by pointing out the bombardment on American military bases, but I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in the source, the "why", the reason for all being like it is.


Maybe it's just because my background is in international relations, but "the first blow" is not "the why." That's more like Te looking at the facts to draw a conclusion. If you want to get into the "why," you'd have to go deep into politics, policy, history, culture, etc. Way, way different.



Acerbusvenator said:


> Have to do some stuff now.


That's probably for the best. I tend to get addicted to debates, and need to be forced back to real-world responsibilities. :tongue:


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

*Since I wasn't really myself at the first 2 days of this thread since there were so many people around, then I'll make a new questionnaire.
This one should be more accurate.
Also think it's about time. I got more than 15 posts after all :tongue:*
*And let's not forget!*
*Thank you Spades for indirectly helping in the continuation of this thread! :laughing:*

0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.
*
Stressful time, might have ADHD, my life is on a drastic turning point.
I'm a 20 year old male and I'm tired.*

1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.








*Uhm... yea... wow this picture is big...
Anyways, There's not so much to say about this picture, I'm not much for sunsets.
I was when I was younger, but I've grown tired of them.
Or rather I get a "wow" moment for a few seconds while looking at it and then I'm like "alright, show's over, not interesting anymore".
Even if I do like how it looks, then it's not really something that I can admire for long...*

2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?

*My first reaction would be something like "S*it, what just happened?"**
I wouldn't really express anything externally, I'd probably get focused if we're going to something that I really like and I'd start to get people going and asking if anyone could fix it, if they couldn't I'd ask them if they can think of anything that we should do. If they don't act then I'd probably call someone to assist us and to get it repaired. If we weren't able to get it fixed in time, I'd call a cab or something so that we at least could get there.*

3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?

*Well, if I want to go then I might as well go, lol.
I usually don't like parties tho, but since he's the driver then I wouldn't stay on his bad side (6w5 issue with security, lol) so I'd think that it's ok.
I might stay in some corner somewhere until it's over.*

4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?

*Such as what? lol
Well if they do, I'd inform them of why they are wrong.
But since it's a friend then it's more likely that I'd just nod and pretend to agree.*

5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?

*Don't know, I'm quite open to new things, lol.
Don't think I'd even faint if I met aliens, but rather just get excited. (tho I do believe in aliens)
I get excited of the most random and weird things, lol xD
But generally I just adapt to the new information.
Might as well update my views to the most accurate.*

6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

*Well, I got an "urge" to make people feel loved and I'd be in a relationship with them, just so that they can feel loved (I'm not so picky about showing people love and I can give it to everyone on an equal level).*

7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? 

*Uhm, people tend to assume that just because I nod and smile that there's nothing wrong with me.
It takes me trying to make it really obvious for most people to notice, yet I notice even the smallest signs of them not feeling well.*

b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?

*I would like to be more accepting and open as a person and maybe not so overreacting.
Maybe if I only could change 1 thing then I'd like to be more accepting.*

8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?
*
I usually get hunches and gut feelings, I get them quite a lot.
I usually get them around people, or when talking to people.
I get gut feelings and hunches when for example arguments are about to break out.*

9. a) What activities energize you most? 
*
I get energized to a degree when I can help friends, but I at some few occurrences can get like drunk when I'm at a party, almost like as if my body is over doing it.
I also get energized when I learn something new (no matter what it is).*

b) What activities drain you most? Why?

*I get drained by whiners, the people who can't see anything positive and the people who are suicidal.
What they all have in-common is that they're negative and I find the negative energy to be really draining.*

10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?

*haha, I try not to go and randomly hug people xD (actually doing well on that).
It's seen as kinda odd to randomly hug people just because you're happy.
I try not to stick out too much, I've been bullied for too long to take that risk.*


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Btw. I did a test earlier in socionics that said I was INFp

It describes me like this based on my answers (note that they only used my answers to describe me):

I am abstract, speculative, imaginative and idealistic. I am often reserved and quiet. I often act without any preparation at all. I am attracted more to the theory than to its utilisation. I feel very confident with all aspects of ethics. I often weigh my own opinions against the opinions of others. I am very confident about my own physique. I am all about freedom from responsibilities and obligations. I often get touchy-feely or use emotional manipulation. I like to observe and study other people and their relationships. I do not know many people. I often feel bound by my own promises and appointments. I could easily break no longer wanted relationships. I show interest towards love and passion. I often find myself in a struggle between emotional and intellectual self. I am paying attention to people and their feelings. I quickly explore and get familiar with new places. I am often immersed in my own world of thoughts and feelings. I am outgoing and talkative. I prefer smaller quick returns to larger long term investments. I seek fewer but deeper interactions with people. I am actively involved in what is happening outside and around me. I am interested in everything different and unusual. I am often having difficulties with initiating new contacts. I am fond of privacy and seclusion. I am often hesitant and doubtful. I care about the future more than the present. I often wonder about the past or the future. I appreciate solitude.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ltldslwmn said:


> I'm amazed by the mastery of English by the non-native English speakers here. (At least, I'm assuming LeaT and Mimesis aren't native speakers, either.) Every Dutch person I've ever met (and I've met dozens) speaks English like a pro, but I'm just really grateful that Acerbusvenator and LeaT haven't slipped into Swedish here.


Hahaha, I didn't know. I thought he was Norwegian actually for some reason!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Btw. I did a test earlier in socionics that said I was INFp
> 
> It describes me like this based on my answers (note that they only used my answers to describe me):
> 
> I am abstract, speculative, imaginative and idealistic. I am often reserved and quiet. I often act without any preparation at all. I am attracted more to the theory than to its utilisation. I feel very confident with all aspects of ethics. I often weigh my own opinions against the opinions of others. I am very confident about my own physique. I am all about freedom from responsibilities and obligations. I often get touchy-feely or use emotional manipulation. I like to observe and study other people and their relationships. I do not know many people. I often feel bound by my own promises and appointments. I could easily break no longer wanted relationships. I show interest towards love and passion. I often find myself in a struggle between emotional and intellectual self. I am paying attention to people and their feelings. I quickly explore and get familiar with new places. I am often immersed in my own world of thoughts and feelings. I am outgoing and talkative. I prefer smaller quick returns to larger long term investments. I seek fewer but deeper interactions with people. I am actively involved in what is happening outside and around me. I am interested in everything different and unusual. I am often having difficulties with initiating new contacts. I am fond of privacy and seclusion. I am often hesitant and doubtful. I care about the future more than the present. I often wonder about the past or the future. I appreciate solitude.


Would you say prefer the trees over the tree roots?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Would you say prefer the trees over the tree roots?


I like both xD
I like trees more tho 
But that's just because they look good! :laughing:
Roots are just brown and.... disgusting...

If that's a metaphor for wanting to go by the source of things or by what they cause, then both are equally important :happy:
The tree roots don't always determine the tree *nod*
or actually they do, but it's hard to determine what tree it is by looking at its roots.

But yea, I guess I'm a bit an favor for the trees over the tree roots. roud:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I like both xD
> I like trees more tho
> But that's just because they look good! :laughing:
> Roots are just brown and.... disgusting...
> ...


Thought so too, and your response is more in line with Ji.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Thought so too, and your response is more in line with Ji.


Making the question.
ISFJ or INFJ if I'm not mistaken, right?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Making the question.
> ISFJ or INFJ if I'm not mistaken, right?


No. ENTP or INFJ. Logical consistency preferred, seeing more sides of the same coin.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Speaking of which.
What do you think the accuracy of his definition of INFJ is?




I agree with how he defined introverted intuition as something that I do 
I think I explained it earlier in the thread, but with an example of the war between USA and Iran, which is just one of the things I do when trying to get to the core of what is being said.
I sometimes also respond to people with what they've said, but paraphrased in a more simplified way (people usually say things in more complex ways than they need to, just because it makes them sound smarter).


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

This is a quite good explanation of how I act in debates.
I keep moving back in the debate until I find a moment to strike and then I cripple my opposition permanently.



> *The Cobra:*
> 
> _“OoOoOoOo, That’s a bingo!”_
> 
> ...


http://personalitycafe.com/infj-articles/19817-many-faces-infj.html

Even if I might not be INFJ, then that's a good explanation of how I can act at times.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm gonna sleep now, but a thing that's been nagging me is this.

If I was S Dom or aux, how come I was bullied?
I've found that people are bullied for 2 reasons mainly, A. They are wierd or B. They are smarter than the bullies.
Tho, a lot of the people that bullied me were equally smart, or smarter than me and there were too many bullies to consider B as possible.

This leaves me to believe that they considered me wierd.
Why would an S Dom or aux be bullied? ESTJs and types like that got a lot of friends and they are often considered "cool".

Another thing that I've noticed is that some of tem prey on me because I have a helpless look on my face, even empty in a way.
I usually observe people, but I get this empty look on my face when my mind is slipping. Sometimes I start to dream about my giant army that I've built in my fantasy world when I get like that.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I wish to thank all of you who have dedicated your time to help me find my type.

We decided a while back that I was an IFJ and we have tried to see if Si or Ni is my dominant function.

I have spent the last hour that I should've been sleeping, researching Ni vs Si and I agreed a lot with the descriptions of Ni on pages like INFJ vs ISFJ and Ni vs Ne vs Si vs Se - INTJ Forum but also Quick thought about Ne/Si vs Ni/Se.

Tho my breakthrough was when I remembered something that Beebe said about the dominant function, "Since this is the ego's main standpoint, we probably don't often project it at others. We "own" it right off the bat. It is "us", at least in our conscious self-image."
So instead of looking or a function that I don't externally project, I looked at the inferiors.
ISxJ's might feel inferior in new possibilities.
INxJ's might feel inferior with current tangible experience.
okey, that didn't help me much, so I looked at how they were projected and remembered something from earlier in the thread.
ISxJ's Cling to dominant perspective. Criticize NP's as irresponsible regarding learned knowledge
INxJ's Cling to dominant perspective. Criticize SP's as reckless
this reminded me of how I earlier states how I had issues with a lot of SPs and we then saw it as unlikely that I was SP.

Since it's now about what my least projected function is, then maybe it's something I need to find out on my own.
I can't expect others to find what I do not show.

Tho inferior Ne is usually expressed for ISJs when they feel bad, I give negative possibilities when I feel alright.
I'd even say that it's healthy for me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> By the way, I did a test where instead of putting qualities that I see in myself, I put qualities that I dislike and the result was *ESTJ *(Te Si Ne Fi).
> Wouldn't that in a way mean that I dislike those functions?


You have no idea how much INFPs, INTPs, ENTPs and ENFPs dislike ESTJs and ESFJs. This is because of their domineering personality and need to be in control. ESTJs more so than ESFJs. It is also because their auxiliary function along with their dominant is usually our inferior and/or tertiary.

I think @_ltldslwmn_ summed it up to me, personally. You're in an NeFe loop and in the grips of the inferior. You are confused because your Ti is currently only supporting your loop. You need to start asking questions what you think is logical and rational, not what makes sense of what you know. 

You are definitely not an NF! If you were an INFJ, your inferior is Se. I haven't seen a single Ni nor Se in any of your posts. Instead you fall back on Si and go "but this is what I know about me" and compare that to what we give you. It's quite frustrating, to say the least. Even an ISFJ would consider the data we give them but do it in their own time, because Si doms require more time than others in order to process information. 

Furthermore, NTs are NOT emotional robots! I have a lot of feelings and I genuinely care about those I know. Stop use Te to back up some sily notion of yours with Si and Fe. You know better than this and you know how the functions work. Yet why are you so blind-sided of who you are? 

I am not saying ENTP is de facto your type; but the likelihood that it is is like 99% at this point. You have yet to provide evidence for that you are actually an INFJ or INFP. You can separate between fact and value judgements. NF users cannot do this, especially young ones! They will have issues understanding why their F values are not the same as T facts. 

You need to wake up. Look at yourself. Who are you? Why? Is your behavior logical and rational? You need to get yourself out of your loop and your grip. If I could I would come over and slap you over your face. See, that's how NTs care about each other. You wouldn't mind that, would you? Because deep down you know you're acting irrational. You wouldn't take offense if I would. An NF WOULD take offense though, I can tell you that. Even if they understand this is how NTs show affection, they would still find it crude, rude and a poor way to express concern.


> We decided a while back that I was an IFJ and we have tried to see if Si or Ni is my dominant function.


This bothers me a lot because we didn't. If you check the little poll Amaterasu did, you will actually see more evidence for ENTP. I know that at least I, Amaterasu and ltldslwmn voted and we all voted strongly for ENTP. I see more ENTP behavior further down below: 


> If I was S Dom or aux, how come I was bullied?
> I've found that people are bullied for 2 reasons mainly, A. They are wierd or B. They are smarter than the bullies.
> Tho, a lot of the people that bullied me were equally smart, or smarter than me and there were too many bullies to consider B as possible.
> 
> ...


Look, Fe auxiliary users when immature don't think like you do in bold in particular. They're too hyperaware of what damage their social actions have on others than NTPs are. Remember what I wrote way back about Fe development where dominant and auxiliary users have to learn to spot when they are manipulative and use Fe in a bad manner because they use Fe too much when things go wrong whereas tertiary and inferior users have to learn to use Fe positively because their Fe is so poorly developed? 

This is what I am saying. 

Also, this entire post of yours is typical NeTi think. Create some set scenarios with Ne and then rationalize which one is the most logical with Ti. Thus, arrive at a conclusion by comparing the two scenarios! This post above is Ti at its finest and cannot become more clear in writing.


> Since it's now about what my least projected function is, then maybe it's something I need to find out on my own.


Yes. Look into Ne. You should go back and read this entire thread and keep Ne in mind. By the way, I find SPs to usually be reckless too. It's just logical caution on my end. SPs have more of a tendency to jump straight into a situation because they know they can handle it. 

You need to stop doing this self-sabotage to yourself. You only confuse yourself.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> You have no idea how much INFPs, INTPs, ENTPs and ENFPs dislike ESTJs and ESFJs. This is because of their domineering personality and need to be in control. ESTJs more so than ESFJs. It is also because their auxiliary function along with their dominant is usually our inferior and/or tertiary.
> 
> I think @_ltldslwmn_ summed it up to me, personally. You're in an NeFe loop and in the grips of the inferior. You are confused because your Ti is currently only supporting your loop. You need to start asking questions what you think is logical and rational, not what makes sense of what you know.
> 
> ...


mm, I wouldn't take offense if you slapped me, lol :laughing:

I will go back and re-read. I've had so many people call me an NTP that I can't ignore it. 

I had a fight with an INTJ with an INTP son who called me an INTP troll and I do use a lot of the NTP way of trolling people, even when not thinking about it (like when our entire class failed to do what our ESTJ teacher told us to do and instead of writing what I could do better, I wrote what she could do better).

Maybe my reliance on the right brain hemisphere and my long time of believing that I'm an NF has clouded my judgment more than I thought.

My enneagram 6 might have been what I thought was strong Fe.
The description of a 6 is after all:


> Sixes at their *BEST *are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"If you keep defending something that you already doubt, you will end up believing your own lie." (the real quote doesn't actually go like that)
I've starting to think that it might apply a bit to me.

Tho I don't get it, if I got Si inferior, then why don't I have issues with ISTJs?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> mm, I wouldn't take offense if you slapped me, lol :laughing:
> 
> I will go back and re-read. I've had so many people call me an NTP that I can't ignore it.
> 
> ...


Because not all ISTJs are assholes?


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Because not all ISTJs are assholes?


lol :laughing:
Okay, you do got a point and a lot of INTJs seem to think that I'm a troll for some reason. 
I've just never seen myself as an extrovert...
And I find quite a few INJs shallow, lol (yes, I just said that to annoy my ex who happens to be typed INFJ :dry


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> lol :laughing:
> Okay, you do got a point and a lot of INTJs seem to think that I'm a troll for some reason.
> I've just never seen myself as an extrovert...
> And I find quite a few INJs shallow, lol (yes, I just said that to annoy my ex who happens to be typed INFJ :dry


I drive INTJs up the wall too with my Ne


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I drive INTJs up the wall too with my Ne


I might just be an extrovert that isn't especially social :laughing: 
My INTP friend once made a comment that both I and his ENFP girlfriend kept interrupting each other and that we kept talking at the same time... oh and that neither of us could be quite.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I might just be an extrovert that isn't especially social :laughing:
> My INTP friend once made a comment that both I and his ENFP girlfriend kept interrupting each other and that we kept talking at the same time... oh and that neither of us could be quite.


Yes. Between me and my ENFP friend, she's doing the most talking, definitely. And I do think of myself as social among people but she's more social I suppose XD


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

There's a lot of confusion in this thread with typing you @Acerbusvenator. In the thread where I brought up the logic of socionics, at first you were very rigid in denying, but once I've shown you pure logic it seemed you actually started to consider it which is indicative of Ti-Ne instead of Ne-Ti. Ti doms are more rigid in their conclusions since Ti is a judging function, so you sticking by your system was very Ti dom like, but Ne opened up your options once I showed you a new way of looking at it. So my conclusion is INTP, also I came to that conclusion off of the first page in this thread when you were answering that questionnaire and telling us a little about your self.

To get a more accurate analysis though go through these descriptions of cognitive function dom types then decide which one applies to you most or the ones you relate to most. If you come to more than one of those types, explain to us why you think those types. Even if you come up to one conclusion, explain to us why you came to that answer so we can accurately guide you to your true type efficaciously.



> *The Extraverted Sensation Type*
> 
> Extraverted sensation strives for intensity of experience derived from concrete objects and physical activities. Consciousness is therefore directed outward to those objects and activities that may be expected to arouse the strongest sensations.
> 
> ...


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I get what you're saying and I appreciate all the help.
But there's something nagging me about the inferior functions.

As an INTP, Fe would be inferior.
The Form of the Inferior - ITPs

Now, I've seen a lot of it, but not from me.
The inferior function is summarized as (what I don't agree with in red and what I agree with in green, orange is somewhere in the middle and black is simply put a no):

ISTPs and INTPs

� Logic emphasized to an extreme
� Hypersensitivity to relationships
� Emotionalism

When it comes to ENTP
the Form of the Inferior - ENPs

Then I've had a lot of discussions with an ENTP, tho I found him to have his head in the clouds because he believes in psychopaths (aka. super humans)

Same thing here:
ENTPs and ENFPs
� Withdrawal and depression
� Obsessiveness
� Focus on the body


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiant Truth said:


> There's a lot of confusion in this thread with typing you @_Acerbusvenator_. In the thread where I brought up the logic of socionics, at first you were very rigid in denying, but once I've shown you pure logic it seemed you actually started to consider it which is indicative of Ti-Ne instead of Ne-Ti. Ti doms are more rigid in their conclusions since Ti is a judging function, so you sticking by your system was very Ti dom like, but Ne opened up your options once I showed you a new way of looking at it. So my conclusion is INTP, also I came to that conclusion off of the first page in this thread when you were answering that questionnaire and telling us a little about your self.
> 
> To get a more accurate analysis though go through these descriptions of cognitive function dom types then decide which one applies to you most or the ones you relate to most. If you come to more than one of those types, explain to us why you think those types. Even if you come up to one conclusion, explain to us why you came to that answer so we can accurately guide you to your true type efficaciously.


Si can cause that just as much as Ti can. His Fe is too strong for it to be inferior. And it's not like ENTPs can't listen to logic either or stick to their ideas. That's the difference - ENTPs like their ideas more and INTPs like their principles more. This behavior can appear as the same if you don't look at the deeper root cause and logic behind the behavior. I think it's obvious Acerbusvenator is more interested in ideas than principles, such as the idea of him being INFx. Never once did he try to justify this with some kind of logical principle, e.g. it is more logical I am INFx because the principles behing INFx is this and that. Instead he gave us more superficial reasons related to Si: I must be INFx because of what I know about myself is superficially more similar to INFx think. He never analyzed the functions he used that would prove INFx though, which to me would be more indicative of Ti dominance.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Si can cause that just as much as Ti can. His Fe is too strong for it to be inferior. And it's not like ENTPs can't listen to logic either or stick to their ideas. That's the difference - ENTPs like their ideas more and INTPs like their principles more. This behavior can appear as the same if you don't look at the deeper root cause and logic behind the behavior. I think it's obvious Acerbusvenator is more interested in ideas than principles, such as the idea of him being INFx. Never once did he try to justify this with some kind of logical principle, e.g. it is more logical I am INFx because the principles behing INFx is this and that. Instead he gave us more superficial reasons related to Si: I must be INFx because of what I know about myself is superficially more similar to INFx think. He never analyzed the functions he used that would prove INFx though, which to me would be more indicative of Ti dominance.


Not disagreeing with you at all about how functions can seem alike. I also understand ENTPs love their ideas while INTPs love their principles, and the fact that I have a very strong Ti. I definitely understand that ENTPs listen to logic, if anything many of us are extremely logical. 

Nevertheless, you may very well be right. I didn't really consider Si too much, making him a Te user if in fact he is an ISTJ which would make it harder for him to analyze himself. Si users also hold to their convictions very rigidly also, while Te can listen to and follow logic, so that would explain his thought process in this perspective from that other thread. So ISTJ may actually be my answer now. Now that I think about it, my mother (who is an ISTJ) definitely did share a lot of problems that are similar to him

@Acerbusvenator, at that last post I put up with those function types, did you relate to the Introverted Sensation type?

Also this was very indicative of Si also, most Si users tend to think Ne users heads are in the cloud:


> Then I've had a lot of discussions with an ENTP, tho I found him to have his head in the clouds because he believes in psychopaths (aka. super humans)


Which btw, Psychopaths do exist, and the ones that aren't unhealthy happen to become CEO's and high up in society with no fantasy about killing or hurting others, just to make sure they're on top and in control. There are different varieties of psychopaths, Healthiest-Unhealthiest. From certain stand perspectives, I can see how Psychopaths can look superhuman, but it's really what society says is "super human", and how it correlates to the checklist of what makes a Psychopath, but lets not derail this thread too much lol.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

I didn't read the functions @Radiant Truth, because I'm aware of my own bias in the subject.

And no, psychopaths do not exist, at most they are suffering from anti-social personality disorder.
I am aware of the so called warrior gene, but that doesn't say much.
And who wouldn't consider their boss to be a psychopath? They just keep bossing you around and telling you that you can go home if you don't like it.



> I also understand ENTPs love their ideas while INTPs love their principles


I love being right. :tongue: (this was a less serious comment tho xD)


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I didn't read the functions @Radiant Truth, because I'm aware of my own bias in the subject.
> 
> And no, psychopaths do not exist, at most they are suffering from anti-social personality disorder.
> I am aware of the so called warrior gene, but that doesn't say much.
> ...


I'm sorry but I have to disagree, Psychopaths don't have a personality disorder, they are a personality. Sociopaths have a personality disorder, but not Psychopaths. There is a difference, and most people don't understand that, never mind trying to look it up and see it for themselves. Psychopaths also make up less than 3% of the population, making them also pretty rare. Psychopaths blend in to society, so you wouldn't know one is a true psychopath unless they came out and told you. Psychopaths unlike Sociopaths are motivated by survival, they are the true survival species, always looking for a way to be on top and survive. Sociopaths don't care about survival as much as revenge to society for hurting them. Sociopaths are created due to abusive homes, bullies in school etc. while Psychopaths are born the way they are. That's why many psychologist are trying to more accurately define that the Psychopath is a personality not a disorder. They're trying to get it implemented into the DSM, separating it from ASPD and Sociopaths.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiant Truth said:


> I'm sorry but I have to disagree, Psychopaths don't have a personality disorder, they are a personality. Sociopaths have a personality disorder, but not Psychopaths. There is a difference, and most people don't understand that, never mind trying to look it up and see it for themselves. Psychopaths also make up less than 3% of the population, making them also pretty rare. Psychopaths blend in to society, so you wouldn't know one is a true psychopath unless they came out and told you. Psychopaths unlike Sociopaths are motivated by survival, they are the true survival species, always looking for a way to be on top and survive. Sociopaths don't care about survival as much as revenge to society for hurting them. Sociopaths are created due to abusive homes, bullies in school etc. while Psychopaths are born the way they are. That's why many psychologist are trying to more accurately define that the Psychopath is a personality not a disorder. They're trying to get it implemented into the DSM, separating it from ASPD and Sociopaths.


I say that largely depends on the logic we're using to rationalize the differences. For example, psychopaths, although I do prefer the term anti-social disorder, are often born with the inability to experience empathy. They have a neurological disorder. I would also say that there is an overlap with anti-personal disorder and narcissism, as inability to experience empathy and feel emotions in general will of course lead to feelings of superiority in a similar sense that thinkers tend to experience themselves as superior to feelers. Narcissism is more commonly associated with sociopathy.

BUT ANYWAY.

I don't think Acerbusvenator is an ISTJ. His Si is definitely not dominant and his overall behavior and attitude is more congruent with it being inferior. Just because ENTPs have Si as their inferior it doesn't mean they don't use Si. It just means they use it very poorly.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

You see, this is something that goes against the Ti theory.
I get what you're saying and I accept it. I got no need to try to point out that I'm more correct in my belief.

As demonstrated with our discussion about psychopaths, I might generally not agree with it, but I can accept that people believe in it and I can back down.
However, every time I made a comment about it, you tried to defend it with even more information rather than to just (like me) try to keep it calmed down.

I'm not forceful with my opinion, I state what I think and then I like to leave the discussion.
I make thing a bit chaotic and then I let someone else come in and take the advantage.

Both you and LeaT are very inclined to just try to make proofs that I can't argue against.
I back down quite fast from an argument or discussion, both of you take a step forward when in an argument or discussion.

Ti tries to dominate the logic of the discussion.
When a T function comes into the discussion or argument, I walk away.

Also, I stated before how I tend to believe that people are in-love with me because they give me a compliment.
And I've stated that I'm right brain hemisphere dominant (about 60% tendency towards right and 40% to left)
ENTP is more to the left hemisphere, and that's just about what I would like add for the moment.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

LeaT said:


> *I say that largely depends on the logic we're using to rationalize the differences.* For example, psychopaths, although I do prefer the term anti-social disorder, are often born with the inability to experience empathy. They have a neurological disorder. I would also say that there is an overlap with anti-personal disorder and narcissism, as inability to experience empathy and feel emotions in general will of course lead to feelings of superiority in a similar sense that thinkers tend to experience themselves as superior to feelers. Narcissism is more commonly associated with sociopathy.
> 
> BUT ANYWAY.
> 
> I don't think Acerbusvenator is an ISTJ. His Si is definitely not dominant and his overall behavior and attitude is more congruent with it being inferior. Just because ENTPs have Si as their inferior it doesn't mean they don't use Si. It just means they use it very poorly.


The bold is what makes all the difference, I do agree. The logic I'm using is this, who is to say empathy is a must? Empathy is something most people feel but it's not necessary to function in a society or even help better it. For instance, I don't feel empathy, but I'm focused on being a CEO to generate money and create a name for myself to pursue bigger goals of mine like changing the school systems, changing the laws that get in the way of efficiency. By definition, criteria check sheet, and personal psychologist I'm a functional psychopath. I don't need empathy to feel sympathy, sympathy being what is unjust or unfair, unjust and unfair being what applies to the bigger picture. I don't need to feel bad for little joey for getting hit by tow truck going 70 miles an our while little joey crosses the street. It means nothing to the bigger picture, but I can rationalize why his loved ones may be sad, though I do understand that within due time they will move on from their despair and find hope again. The system of society doesn't get affected by little joeys death, the world doesn't get affected by little joey's death, so little joey's death is irrelevant to the bigger picture along with their sadness being irrelevant to the bigger picture also, so there's no need for me to feel sympathy. I'm like that with family members also.

Another thing, psychopaths do feel feelings, most people for some reason think empathy is the only way to experience feelings, emotions. That's the analysis I gathered from people not liking psychopaths due to inability to feel empathy, but that doesn't mean sympathy can't be felt, or anger, frustration, happiness. Sympathy is very subjective, it correlates with how one perceives something as unjust or unfair. That's why if you study humans you start to realize some people sympathize with something while another group of people won't, look at the abortion arguments in America, or politics, wars. So sympathy is subjective to what the person thinks is "wrong", the psychopath just feels things are wrong when they hurt the bigger picture. Sociopaths aren't bigger picture oriented, along with unhealthy psychopaths, which is the low percentage of psychopaths. Most psychopaths aren't violent, but that doesn't mean rage doesn't exist. Enneagram 8 describes that phenomenon, how one can be filled with anger/rage and not be violent, but instead use it as motivation to keep pushing. I'm not saying all Enneagram 8's are psychopaths, I'm just saying Enneagram 8's can explain some confusion about psychopaths.

Now you had me with Si, I came to that conclusion, but he's not ENTP. He's definitely an introvert.



> I've had a large issue with communication for a large portion of my life. I had a talk with my parents and the school principal when I was around 13 years old because I didn't know how to communicate with the other students, but I would instead poke them to get their attention (which worked more efficiently than saying their name).





> When I was younger, I thought that everyone hated me and I treated actions made by others as made in a hostile attempt, even compliments were seen as an attempt to get me to reveal information that I could be offended by for a future use by the person.





> I have a tendency to blame others for my mistakes and take my feelings of disappointment onto them and I also use emotional manipulation in a lot of arguments to make the other party in the discussion feel like they've done something bad.


These are indicators of definite not Ne dom. He also empathizes a lot with others, not Ne-Ti. As you said when he claimed to be INFP there was no true reasons to why. ENTPs we love our ideas, but we're about making our ideas logical, we're about trying to be right in the bigger picture, hence why if an ENTP is wrong and not unhealthy they will admit to being wrong, unless devils advocate is being played for debating fun. ENTPs are extremely logical with our conclusions, it's rare to see an ENTP not be able to explain where our thoughts come from. Not saying it's impossible, but very rare. I could be wrong on ISTJ, but I'm sure he's not an ENTP.

ENTPs we do use our Si, but it is inferior as much as Fe is inferior to an INTP, which means we're not going to use any of its true potential but instead its basic fundamentals. The principles mean a lot to an ENTP as it does to an INTP which helps separate the ENTP from the ENFP. Now I know I said he is an introvert but lets say he happens to be an ENFP 6 in a counter phobic stage, that could repress his Ne, Ne doms happen to be the most introverted extroverts because of Ne, and 6's anxiety could stump the Ne, or disguise it as inferior. I would go more with INTP for the rigidness is beliefs. Also an ENTP can't help but to read and analyze themselves over and over again if we're trying to understand ourselves. He refused to read what i had given him to read because of his "bias" which is not very Ne dominant like. 

I stick by INTP 5w6 sp/sx , but I could see ISTJ 6w5 sp/sx. Need more analysis, but I wholeheartedly disagree with your ENTP assessment.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

Acerbusvenator said:


> You see, this is something that goes against the Ti theory.
> I get what you're saying and I accept it. I got no need to try to point out that I'm more correct in my belief.
> 
> As demonstrated with our discussion about psychopaths, I might generally not agree with it, but I can accept that people believe in it and I can back down.
> ...


 @LeaT But this instead makes me believe that he may have been right about INFP, or I was right about ENFP Cp 6. He does back down from arguments, which is not ENTPish at all. Mix that with what you said here:



> Never once did he try to justify this with some kind of logical principle, e.g. it is more logical I am INFx because the principles behing INFx is this and that. Instead he gave us more superficial reasons related to Si: I must be INFx because of what I know about myself is superficially more similar to INFx think.


This implies that he lacks Ti all together, his rigidness does display Fi-Te values. Mix that with you're theory that he is Si inferior, and he doesn't use Ti logic, we may have here a counter phobic 6 ENFP, which could explain his thoughts on why people were against him when you mix Cp 6 anxiety, worst case scenario thinking with Ne possibility generator, you have a lot of negative paranoid thoughts being generated. 

I'm too lazy to go back and make corrections, but I take back Cp 6 and replace it with phobic 6 from the backing down from arguments and all, Cp 6's are the fight, phobic 6's more of the flight. So it's possible he could be ENFP phobic 6. Thinking even more in depth actually, It's possible he could be ISTJ 6 also, the fact that he said his friends mind is up in the clouds and his lack of belief in psychopaths, with him trying to keep the debates calm, could represent Si dom, since Si doms strive for calmness, Ne users strive for chaos. 

So now I'm down to ENFP 6, ISTJ 6, possibly INFP 6. I'm positive he's not ENTP and no longer think he is INTP.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

For some reason, then it seems like people are Si doms if the even refer to the past every once in a while.
Like as if Se doms don't think of the past...

Anyways, one of the reasons why I can't come up with evidence is because asking the person that is being typed for evidence in their personality for different functions is confusing at the minimum.

Since i am being typed, I am the fact. That's why I got issues finding facts within what I say.

Also, this seems a bit like the Russian justice system.
All I say is marked as "irrelevant" if it doesn't support your opinion.

ESPs seem to start to talk about their future and all they haven't done when they are influenced their inferior (about all they should have done) and if there's a purpose to everything. (That last part made me laugh a bit when my mother started doing it, because it was a normal thought for me and she has just started doing it)

ISJs seem to start to drift away in dreams of what could be (I've had quite a few conversations with my ISTJ father about what might happen in the future so far).

That's the perk of having parents who are developing their inferior function.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiant Truth said:


> The bold is what makes all the difference, I do agree. The logic I'm using is this, who is to say empathy is a must? Empathy is something most people feel but it's not necessary to function in a society or even help better it. For instance, I don't feel empathy, but I'm focused on being a CEO to generate money and create a name for myself to pursue bigger goals of mine like changing the school systems, changing the laws that get in the way of efficiency. By definition, criteria check sheet, and personal psychologist I'm a functional psychopath. I don't need empathy to feel sympathy, sympathy being what is unjust or unfair, unjust and unfair being what applies to the bigger picture. I don't need to feel bad for little joey for getting hit by tow truck going 70 miles an our while little joey crosses the street. It means nothing to the bigger picture, but I can rationalize why his loved ones may be sad, though I do understand that within due time they will move on from their despair and find hope again. The system of society doesn't get affected by little joeys death, the world doesn't get affected by little joey's death, so little joey's death is irrelevant to the bigger picture along with their sadness being irrelevant to the bigger picture also, so there's no need for me to feel sympathy. I'm like that with family members also.
> 
> Another thing, psychopaths do feel feelings, most people for some reason think empathy is the only way to experience feelings, emotions. That's the analysis I gathered from people not liking psychopaths due to inability to feel empathy, but that doesn't mean sympathy can't be felt, or anger, frustration, happiness. Sympathy is very subjective, it correlates with how one perceives something as unjust or unfair. That's why if you study humans you start to realize some people sympathize with something while another group of people won't, look at the abortion arguments in America, or politics, wars. So sympathy is subjective to what the person thinks is "wrong", the psychopath just feels things are wrong when they hurt the bigger picture. Sociopaths aren't bigger picture oriented, along with unhealthy psychopaths, which is the low percentage of psychopaths. Most psychopaths aren't violent, but that doesn't mean rage doesn't exist. Enneagram 8 describes that phenomenon, how one can be filled with anger/rage and not be violent, but instead use it as motivation to keep pushing. I'm not saying all Enneagram 8's are psychopaths, I'm just saying Enneagram 8's can explain some confusion about psychopaths.
> 
> ...


Social introversion is not the same as cognitive introversion.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I drive INTJs up the wall too with my Ne


Ne used productively is something I truly admire. (Like the way you INTPs use it here, and the way my wise and discerning ENFP friend comes up with socio-political ideas.) Ne used ineffectively makes me absolutely crazy.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiant Truth said:


> @_LeaT_ But this instead makes me believe that he may have been right about INFP, or I was right about ENFP Cp 6. He does back down from arguments, which is not ENTPish at all. Mix that with what you said here:
> 
> 
> 
> This implies that he lacks Ti all together, his rigidness does display Fi-Te values. Mix that with you're theory that he is Si inferior, and he doesn't use Ti logic, we may have here a counter phobic 6 ENFP, which could explain his thoughts on why people were against him when you mix Cp 6 anxiety, worst case scenario thinking with Ne possibility generator, you have a lot of negative paranoid thoughts being generated.


Not really. I see Ti in him but not as a dominant function. Also, you seem to completely disregard the effects NeFe can have on a person, and what being in the grip does as well. He uses Fe and it's all over the place. He has yet to show any Fi. He does use Te but only sparsely as a kind of shadow function.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

yay, LeaT have at least acknowledged me as an FJ now...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> yay, LeaT have at least acknowledged me as an FJ now...


Correction: I have acknowledged that Fe is a part of your normal function stack but nowhere did I say that you're Fe dom or aux


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Not really. I see Ti in him but not as a dominant function. Also, you seem to completely disregard the effects NeFe can have on a person, and what being in the grip does as well. He uses Fe and it's all over the place. He has yet to show any Fi. He does use Te but only sparsely as a kind of shadow function.


You always say "uses XX and it's all over the place" when you think that it's really strong.
Also, you expressed Ti as not being amongst the strongest functions by the way you said it.

What I don't get is why you want me to be an ENTP.


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## Deus Absconditus (Feb 27, 2011)

LeaT said:


> Not really. I see Ti in him but not as a dominant function. Also, you seem to completely disregard the effects NeFe can have on a person, and what being in the grip does as well. He uses Fe and it's all over the place. He has yet to show any Fi. He does use Te but only sparsely as a kind of shadow function.


I understand why you think that, but I just can't agree, I see more Te in him over Ti. I think you're thinking that Ti in the aux is drastically different then Ti in dom. That's not true, they are different and there is no doubt about that, but a Ti aux user still uses Ti in an efficient way. I also do understand the Ne-Fe loop, I actually suffered from a Dom-tert loop for a while. One thing I do know is during that Dom-tert loop my Ti was still active, just analyzed things to help my Dom-tert go more into the negative zone. Also he doesn't resemble an ENTP going through a Ne-Fe loop, from my perspective. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it, I see no Ti. 

Also no matter what, no matter how unhealthy an ENTP is, debating is never pushed aside for anything. You have to understand that debating is like the core of the ENTP psyche. He has specifically stated already that he backs down from debates, even while we go back and forth, he still doesn't show a big desire to debate but more to stay calm. Unhealthy or not, Dom-tert loop or not, then ENTP will and I stress the word "will" always debate to understand something more clearly. Any true ENTP can vouch for that, because debating for us is energetic, it would actually help us get out of that negative zone. I stand by ENFP, INFP, or ISTJ. The enneagram is definitely 6 and not counter phobic, and like I said before I suspect Sp/sx. 

I also think you're not fusing the theories correctly. Imagine an ENFP 6 sp/sx, it's not going to look like an ENFP 7 so/sx, which I suspect would be your traditional ENFP, the former will be much more introverted than the latter. Also you're right that introversion in cognitive function theory isn't always comparable to introversion in social life, but still an introverted dom will exert that introversion more in social environments. It's not always applicable but it doesn't mean you can't use that system to analyze a type as long as you know it isn't what makes your typing definite. I still keep it an INFP, ENFP, or ISTJ. Maybe you're right but I just don't see any Ti in him, at least not in the dom-aux position. I definitely see more Te-Fi/Fi-Te in him. I don't think it's necessarily Fe in him that you're seeing either, it could just be Ne-Fi-Te at work. His past, and growth can influence how he as an individual has grown. One ENFP can and will differ from another ENFP in ways due to nurture. Maybe if he's an ISTJ, he could be using his Si-Te to base off his past how people produce empathy, and that's why he exerts empathy so much. Also possible (I doubt this), but let's say what you're seeing is right, and he does have Ti, whats to say he doesn't have Ti in the tert, lets say ISFJ. An unhealthy ISFJ comes off as an ENTP. So since I don't see Ti strongly in him, barely at all, and you do, I can come to the conclusion that he's an ISFJ in an unhealthy state. As I said I doubt he's an ISFJ but it's still a possibility. ENTP isn't though I must say.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Radiant Truth said:


> I understand why you think that, but I just can't agree, I see more Te in him over Ti. I think you're thinking that Ti in the aux is drastically different then Ti in dom. That's not true, they are different and there is no doubt about that, but a Ti aux user still uses Ti in an efficient way. I also do understand the Ne-Fe loop, I actually suffered from a Dom-tert loop for a while. One thing I do know is during that Dom-tert loop my Ti was still active, just analyzed things to help my Dom-tert go more into the negative zone. Also he doesn't resemble an ENTP going through a Ne-Fe loop, from my perspective. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it, I see no Ti.
> 
> Also no matter what, no matter how unhealthy an ENTP is, debating is never pushed aside for anything. You have to understand that debating is like the core of the ENTP psyche. He has specifically stated already that he backs down from debates, even while we go back and forth, he still doesn't show a big desire to debate but more to stay calm. Unhealthy or not, Dom-tert loop or not, then ENTP will and I stress the word "will" always debate to understand something more clearly. Any true ENTP can vouch for that, because debating for us is energetic, it would actually help us get out of that negative zone. I stand by ENFP, INFP, or ISTJ. The enneagram is definitely 6 and not counter phobic, and like I said before I suspect Sp/sx.
> 
> I also think you're not fusing the theories correctly. Imagine an ENFP 6 sp/sx, it's not going to look like an ENFP 7 so/sx, which I suspect would be your traditional ENFP, the former will be much more introverted than the latter. Also you're right that introversion in cognitive function theory isn't always comparable to introversion in social life, but still an introverted dom will exert that introversion more in social environments. It's not always applicable but it doesn't mean you can't use that system to analyze a type as long as you know it isn't what makes your typing definite. I still keep it an INFP, ENFP, or ISTJ. Maybe you're right but I just don't see any Ti in him, at least not in the dom-aux position. I definitely see more Te-Fi/Fi-Te in him.


And how is he not using Ti support and reinforce his negative point of view? That's exactly what I see him doing. 

And he does debate. He says he argues in class and with his friends for example. Also, don't downplay the NP's desire to debate in general. The desire to debate is not unique to NTPs or NTJs. INFJs, INFPs and ENFPs (and other types too) all like to debate. That's why we are all here on this forum. If only a certain type or types liked to debate, we would only see INTPs, INTJs and occasionally ENTPs on this site but this is certainly not true. And you see a plethora of various types debating in the debate section. Many of them I should add, are NFPs. Less typism please, and more focus on him and how he thinks.

And honestly, I am not so interested in how enneagram affects ENFP here (I am very aware that enneagram affects type, but I still don't see Fi). I am interested in understanding how he thinks and he doesn't seem to primarily think like an ENFP. I don't see Fi. If you want to prove ENFP you need to dish out where the Fi is at but instead of showing me evidence you just try to undermine my arguments. Not going to work nor is it particularly convincing.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> What I don't get is why you want me to be an ENTP.


The only reason anyone here "wants" you to be an ENTP is because it's what we think you are.  If I thought you were an INFJ or an ESFJ or QEDW I'd tell you so. And LeaT seems pretty honest to me, too.



Radiant Truth said:


> I understand why you think that, but I just can't agree, I see more Te in him over Ti. I think you're thinking that Ti in the aux is drastically different then Ti in dom. That's not true, they are different and there is no doubt about that, but a Ti aux user still uses Ti in an efficient way.


How do you see more Te? All he's does here for 30 pages is reason up, down, and around (Ti) through evidence he finds. He doesn't really cite or organize facts or arguments (Te), though, he pulls information from all kinds of places and connects information from them in ways the rest of us don't necessarily follow (Ne). And if he had Te, he would also have Fi, and he shows no signs of Fi but much evidence of Fe. It's not Te/Fi, it's Ti/Fe.

How an individual Ti user (dom, aux, whatever) actually uses Ti will vary. Some use it very adeptly, others use it faultily. Some have had much training and practice (in math or sciences), others aren't even educated. Some are honest with themselves, others use Ti to weave webs of self-deception. The sign of Ti or Fi is whether a person's naturally tendency is to evaluate things based on their own reason or values. Acer here uses his reason.



> I also do understand the Ne-Fe loop, I actually suffered from a Dom-tert loop for a while. One thing I do know is during that Dom-tert loop my Ti was still active, just analyzed things to help my Dom-tert go more into the negative zone.


That's what's going on here in this thread. And you're encouraging him. He really likes the idea of being an NF. (Who wouldn't? NFs are great.) LeaT especially has demonstrated with excellent reasoning why he is almost certainly not an NF. He thinks and behaves like an NT: not exactly like you, I'm sure, but like himself. He does have an unusual focus on Fe for an NT with tertiary Fe. It's unusual but certainly not impossible or even unlikely. There are also ESTPs with tertiary Fe who are unusually caring, and I happen to be friends with one of those, too. He breaks all the stereotypes that get dumped in the ESTP forum about what insensitive jerks ESTPs are. He knows his tendency to be a jerk and he goes out of his way to avoid it and be a decent and thoughtful guy instead. Acer has also told us of his awareness of the situations in which he has a tendency to be a jerk. Hopefully he also tries not to be. Either way, the tendency and his awareness of it sound fairly parallel to me.



> Also no matter what, no matter how unhealthy an ENTP is, debating is never pushed aside for anything. You have to understand that debating is like the core of the ENTP psyche. He has specifically stated already that he backs down from debates, even while we go back and forth, he still doesn't show a big desire to debate but more to stay calm. Unhealthy or not, Dom-tert loop or not, then ENTP will and I stress the word "will" always debate to understand something more clearly. Any true ENTP can vouch for that, because debating for us is energetic, it would actually help us get out of that negative zone.


He is debating halfway here, in the sense that he presents his ideas but doesn't really engage anyone else's. He avoids them, rather, and he is aware that avoids them, because he has admitted here that that's what he's doing. I'm not sure why he does that, I haven't asked him, but it seems to me he uses the same cognitive processes that an ENTP would use, he just doesn't follow through on the back-and-forth of it. Maybe if he would engage us more, use his Ti more effectively on information that is presented to him instead of going back to Ne and seeking more information, he would work his way out of the cycle he's in.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> he pulls information from all kinds of places and connects information from them in ways the rest of us don't necessarily follow (Ne).


Ne - Explosion of ideas. (supernova)
Ni - Connection of ideas. (black hole)

Basically their S counterpart works as their base. Or source of information if you will.

Ne uses Si as a basis for the ideas and then Ne expands the idea.
Ni continuously scan for good ideas with Se and then Ni connect them.

Ne will progressively use Si to determine how good an idea is and the Ne + Si thought process is quite organized in that sense.
You can easily follow a Ne + Si thought pattern since it is structured by Si.

Ni will continuously scan the present with Se and connect ideas as the come up with Ni. 
The Ni + Se thought process might be seen as inconsistent and it can be hard to see how things connect since Se only collects new information.

NeSi = easy(-ish) to follow train of thought.
NiSe = hard(-ish) to follow train of thought.

Might not have explained that well.

This is antagonizing at times :frustrating: 
Argh! >.<

I connect ideas as they come up FYI.


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## petitpèlerin (Apr 23, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> Ne - Explosion of ideas. (supernova)
> Ni - Connection of ideas. (black hole)


Ne: connecting ideas in information structures around you; generating possibilities.
Ni: connecting ideas you have within yourself; drawing conclusions.

Ne users can connect the dots as they see them: quickly, and without seeming to have to internalize the information first. The speed at which Ne-doms perceive, process, and respond to things has always amazed me.



> I connect ideas as they come up FYI.


Just like that. I don't connect ideas as they come up. I take in what ideas seem true and important, and my Ni goes to work on them later, but the Ni process is not an active one, it's a very passive one.



> Ne uses Si as a basis for the ideas and then Ne expands the idea.
> Ni continuously scan for good ideas with Se and then Ni connect them.


That makes good sense. I totally relate to the second one.



> You can easily follow a Ne + Si thought pattern since it is structured by Si.


Easy for you to say. I follow Ne-Si thought patterns with difficulty at best. 



> NeSi = easy(-ish) to follow train of thought.
> NiSe = hard(-ish) to follow train of thought.


I think just the opposite, of course. Because I use Se-Ni and you use Ne-Si.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

ltldslwmn said:


> Ne: connecting ideas in information structures around you; generating possibilities.
> Ni: connecting ideas you have within yourself; drawing conclusions.
> 
> Ne users can connect the dots as they see them: quickly, and without seeming to have to internalize the information first. The speed at which Ne-doms perceive, process, and respond to things has always amazed me.
> ...


I didn't mean it like that.
Ne keeps going back to Si. Keeping the connection between the beginning and destination.
Ni just keeps going and the beginning can be hard to spot, hence it can be hard to follow.

I meant in the practical sense.
I know enough INJs to know that I can understand their train of thought

I had a discussion with an INTJ I knew IRL. Quite interesting indeed and we used a lot of the same slippery ways of communicating.
It was basically like arguing with myself.
She pulled the same tricks as I do.

Reason that I like many INJs is because we understand each other quite well.
I can relate a lot to the INTJs I know.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Just after reading the first few paragraphs I saw you were an ENFJ...This thread has gone on for too long--everyone has given you every type under the sun. Perhaps you will do better figuring your journey out on your own since you don't seem to agree with anyone else.


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## Acerbusvenator (Apr 12, 2011)

Crono91 said:


> Just after reading the first few paragraphs I saw you were an ENFJ...This thread has gone on for too long--everyone has given you every type under the sun. Perhaps you will do better figuring your journey out on your own since you don't seem to agree with anyone else.


I agree with Ludi, lol.
Tho he's retired.

He once said this about one of my questionnaires



> I've read it thoroughly. You are most definitely one of the two *INF* types, there is very much a *Fi-Te* opposition that is characteristic of those two.
> 
> My conclusion is that you are an INFJ who introverts Fe so that it becomes Fi, emulating an INFP in the process . Thus, your top three functions would be something like:
> 
> ...


This is only a small part tho and he used A LOT of evidence to support it.
He went through many angels trying to prove it.

The big 5 test was one of his attempts to prove that I was INFJ.
I scored RLOAI, which describes me well and it's one of those which frequently are connected with INFJ.

More information than I could write out in days (or even remember at all, lol) has been said to support INFJ. I just denied it all the way and stubbornly believed that I was INFP.
By that, then I don't mean on this thread.
I mean on earlier threads, PMs, conversations etc.

I believe I'm done here tho.

I tried to stop this thread a few pages ago, by stating that we've (I have) found out that I'm an IFJ.
But apparently, then it sparked another discussion.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Acerbusvenator said:


> I agree with Ludi, lol.
> Tho he's retired.
> 
> He once said this about one of my questionnaires
> ...


This thread is getting redundant. But your avatar is kick-ass


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