# sociopaths getting bad rap?



## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

Maybe it's just me, I dunno but it seems that people have lumped sociopaths with psychopaths and APD, which I know by diagnostic criteria that they are all now grouped together, but I don't think that's quite fair.

It's like lawyers, sure most of them are blood sucking leeches, but there are some decent ones.. should we condemn a whole group of people based on the majority? If so shouldn't all of humanity be condemned? 

I envision a friendlier sociopath, one who may not give a damn about you but cares so little about everything else that they still are willing to help.





lol

a free book for your reading pleasure

The Psychopath: The Mask of Sanity


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## Lady K (Oct 13, 2009)

The reason sociopaths get a bad "rep" is because a true sociopath has no conscience. They can and will do whatever they want for their own gain. If you know a "friendly" sociopath, it is because he or she has learned to mimic modern society and the values of its people. It's called pretending. They act like something they're not so that they can fit in better and not be labeled as the sociopaths they are. I agree that not all sociopaths are crazy/insane/insert whatever negative adjective you want, and not all sociopaths are serial killers, but that doesn't make them any less of a manipulative scheming person.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

Kevinaswell posted a video of a man giving a lecture. And most "successful" psychopaths become C.E.Os.


And Lady K. Psychopaths must always learn to mimic society. That what makes them manipulative. But not all of them are completely insane.

Psychopath and sociopath are pretty much interchangeable. From the research I did... But someone correct me if I am wrong.


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## Lady K (Oct 13, 2009)

Psychopaths do not have to learn anything - they only have to learn it if they want to live in harmony with society. Some choose not to do so. No one _must_ do anything.

The difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is generally thought to be that a psychopath is born with the temperament. A sociopath is thought to become this way based on environmental influences - poverty, malnourishment, etc. Most psychologist agree that there is a fine line between the two, but it is generally accepted that psychopaths are created due to genetics, and sociopaths due to environment.


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## echidna1000 (Apr 20, 2009)

You're confused people. In my auror work, I have combated many a sociopathic dark wizard. Sociopaths are destructive people who commit atrocities to Muggles and Wizards without any remorse for their actions. 'Sociopath' is a sociological term and so is given to those based on their destructive behaviour and is also known as AsPD.

A psychopath on the other hand is someone with a brain disorder that removes that ability to empathise, understand the value of what is 'right' and 'wrong' or feel emotional constraint. Such a person may also become a sociopath, acting destructively, or may instead choose to work within society, feigning the emotions that are displayed in human contact and at times even thriving in society with their unique perspective on life. Such non-malevolent psychopaths are known as 'subclinical'. 

A perfect example of a psychopath that is also a sociopath would be Lord Voldemort when he wrought terror to the Wizarding and Muggle worlds alike. A subclinical psychopath can be seen in Winston Churchill, who helped Dumbledore in llead Great Britain to victory over Hitler and Grindelwald and is seen as one of the most inspirational leaders in history.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

What the hell are Muggles and Wizards?


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## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

Every group must suffer from generalizations based on their weakest members.
I'd be quite surprised if a great number of sociopaths were killers - most go unnoticed, most likely. Like people with hydrocephalus - many are spotted from their abnormalities, but others go nearly unnoticed.


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## echidna1000 (Apr 20, 2009)

Doctor Paradox said:


> What the hell are Muggles and Wizards?


That's OK young Muggle, it's best for you to remain unaware of our Wizarding kind.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

Lady K said:


> Psychopaths do not have to learn anything - they only have to learn it if they want to live in harmony with society. Some choose not to do so. No one _must_ do anything.
> 
> The difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is generally thought to be that a psychopath is born with the temperament. A sociopath is thought to become this way based on environmental influences - poverty, malnourishment, etc. Most psychologist agree that there is a fine line between the two, but it is generally accepted that psychopaths are created due to genetics, and sociopaths due to environment.



Either way psychopath and sociopath end up the same. Psychopaths are manipulative. You are not naturally manipulative you learn it. That what makes them...them. Their are cunning and manipulative. They can do whatever the like with their "power" Live in society or be a serial killer. Its their choice. Go find me a person who was born manipulative. If you are manipulative you know how people work. Actions and reasons. Meaning you learned them. And for a psychopath to be a psychopath. They _must_ be alot of things.


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## Lady K (Oct 13, 2009)

No, this is not correct. A psychopath is someone who lacks empathy, lacks a conscience. Just because a person lacks these things does not mean that they will automatically become manipulative or even try to learn how to live properly in society. It is a path they can choose, but it is not the only one that they do choose. Psychopaths _can_ be manipulative, but that doesn't mean that all of them are. Their lack of empathy and a conscience is what makes them capable of being ruthless and manipulative, but ultimately it does not mean that all psychopaths will be this way. You're generalizing. A mental diagnosis of psychopathy does not necessarily include being manipulative or adapting to live in society.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

Lady K said:


> No, this is not correct. A psychopath is someone who lacks empathy, lacks a conscience. Just because a person lacks these things does not mean that they will automatically become manipulative or even try to learn how to live properly in society. It is a path they can choose, but it is not the only one that they do choose. Psychopaths _can_ be manipulative, but that doesn't mean that all of them are. Their lack of empathy and a conscience is what makes them capable of being ruthless and manipulative, but ultimately it does not mean that all psychopaths will be this way. You're generalizing. A mental diagnosis of psychopathy does not necessarily include being manipulative or adapting to live in society.


They lack a natural conscience. I lack a conscience. That does not make me a psychopath? I have little empathy towards humans. What the lack of conscience and empathy effects your choices make you a psycopath. I fake caring for people. Its rather easy. I just don't like being a complete dick. Does this make me a "healthy" Psychopath. If they choose to live in society as an average person. They are not a psychopath. Making me not a psychopath.

Definition of Psychopath. 

"A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse."

If can't be a psychopath unless these things cause you to do something.


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## NotSoRighteousRob (Jan 1, 2010)

APD Criteria 

*Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR = 301.7)*

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and the rights of others occurring since the age of 15, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
B) The individual is at least 18 years of age.C) There is evidence of Conduct disorder with onset before age 15.D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.
*Diagnostic criteria (ICD-10) - dissocial personality disorder‎*

The World Health Organization's ICD-10 defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called _(F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder_.[6]
It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
Persistent irritability.
The criteria specifically rule out conduct disorders.[7] Dissocial personality disorder criteria differ from those for antisocial and sociopathic personality disorders.[8]It is a requirement of ICD-10 that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.






*Millon's subtypes*

Theodore Millon identified five subtypes of antisocial.[9][10] Any individual antisocial may exhibit none, one or more than one of the following:


*covetous antisocial* - variant of the pure pattern where individuals feel that life has not given them their due.


*reputation-defending antisocial* - including narcissistic features


*risk-taking antisocial* - including histrionic features


*nomadic antisocial* - including schizoid, avoidant features


*malevolent antisocial* - including sadistic, paranoid features.


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## Linus (Apr 27, 2010)

It's possible isn't it, that there are also percentages of how strong it is in each person? I read it somewhere.. I can't remember how it was worded.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

"Friendly" implies that they have positive feelings towards you. They don't. A sociopath or psychopath will only act friendly towards you when they know it benefits them. Successful ones will also learn to play by the rules of the society. They will learn behavioral rituals and the societal games that people play with each other and blend in perfectly. They will also learn how to pull your strings, how to make you feel guilty, how to make you feel happy, and ultimately how to manipulate your thoughts and emotions to promote themselves. They are only "friendly" towards their own being.

But I would assume that there are borderline sociopaths as well. They usually test T on MBTI test and lurk on T forums.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

RighteousRob said:


> APD Criteria
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do all of this. But due to the fact I fake empathy and emotions sometimes just so I don't look like a complete dick.Most of the time when I do this it never results in my profit. Does this make me pyschopath?


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## zorro (Apr 9, 2010)

> "Friendly" implies that they have positive feelings towards you. They don't. A Human will only act friendly towards you when they know it benefits them. Successful ones will also learn to play by the rules of the society. They will learn behavioral rituals and the societal games that people play with each other and blend in perfectly. They will also learn how to pull your strings, how to make you feel guilty, how to make you feel happy, and ultimately how to manipulate your thoughts and emotions to promote themselves. They are only "friendly" towards their own being.


does that sound like a description of the human race from some alien 'animal behaviour' textbook to anyone else? i can just imagine them studying us in college right now. i dont see how you can discern which people do this to an extent that is harmful or not but it sounds like human nature to me. maybe psychopaths are just a little more honest with themselves about that nature.


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## Lady K (Oct 13, 2009)

A psychopath admitting he's a psychopath, or has psychopath tendencies? The whole point of manipulating people and fitting into society is so that other people will not know you actually lack empathy and a conscience. Perhaps you care very little for humanity and whatnot, but you are not a true sociopath. You're a kid struggling to find his place in the world, and rebelling against society in your own little way. Sociopaths don't run around telling people they're sociopaths, it kind of defeats the whole purpose. 

And for the record, psychopathy and sociopathy are not a diagnosable disorders by the DSM IV. They're not part of the manual at all - people link it with Antisocial Personality Disorder because it's the closest they can get and it encompases persons who have what is called "moral insanity. There is a debate going on currently on whether or not sociopathy and psychopathy should be included because APD is too broad of a diagnosis - it includes people who commit crimes and other self-serving acts for reasons that don't indicate psychopathy. (Perhaps this is the criteria that you fit, Paradox).


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

Lady K said:


> A psychopath admitting he's a psychopath, or has psychopath tendencies? The whole point of manipulating people and fitting into society is so that other people will not know you actually lack empathy and a conscience. Perhaps you care very little for humanity and whatnot, but you are not a true sociopath. You're a kid struggling to find his place in the world, and rebelling against society in your own little way. Sociopaths don't run around telling people they're sociopaths, it kind of defeats the whole purpose.
> 
> And for the record, psychopathy and sociopathy are not a diagnosable disorders by the DSM IV. They're not part of the manual at all - people link it with Antisocial Personality Disorder because it's the closest they can get and it encompases persons who have what is called "moral insanity. There is a debate going on currently on whether or not sociopathy and psychopathy should be included because APD is too broad of a diagnosis - it includes people who commit crimes and other self-serving acts for reasons that don't indicate psychopathy. (Perhaps this is the criteria that you fit, Paradox).


Well do to the fact I did nothing illegal why the hell would I care if I am a a sociopath. Its not like I go around telling my friends I have sociopath tendacies. Then people would be able to see threw my things. I could careless if they care I have a conscience or empathy. Nor do I care about fitting in to soceity. And for the point you making saying I am sociopath. You realize this is the internet. I could say this here simply because I shall never have to pretend to care for anyone here. I can't manipulate on the internet. Well...Effectivly anyway.


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## Lady K (Oct 13, 2009)

My point was that I _don't_ think you're a sociopath or a psychopath, and you claiming in this thread that you fit several of the diagnostic criteria for someone with APD is kind of silly in my mind. Self-diagnosing, at your age in particular, is basically absurd. You're not anywhere near the levels of self-awareness that one would have to be to diagnose something like APD in yourself. And like I said, running around on the forums and admitting that you have little to no empathy and care nothing for humanity and whatever else it was that you said makes it that much more likely that you _do not_ have APD. What you said is essentially correct - telling people means they'd see right through you. It's not how a sociopath works. And trust me, a person can manipulate just fine from the internet. People are people, whether you talk to them face to face, or through text. In some respects, it could be _more_ effective from the internet than it is in person.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

zorro said:


> does that sound like a description of the human race from some alien 'animal behaviour' textbook to anyone else? i can just imagine them studying us in college right now. i dont see how you can discern which people do this to an extent that is harmful or not but it sounds like human nature to me. maybe psychopaths are just a little more honest with themselves about that nature.


normal people are capable of doing a whole variety of things that do not benefit exclusively themselves - raising a child, giving a lift to a stranger, giving some change to a homeless dude - sociopaths would not see a point in doing any of these things

normal people also have guilt - if as you say nature has intended us to be sociopathic and sociopaths are just more honest with themselves about it, why do normal people experience guilt then when they are being selfish or manipulative?



Doctor Paradox said:


> I could careless if they care I have a conscience or empathy. Nor do I care about fitting in to soceity. And for the point you making saying I am sociopath.


sociopaths don't sit on forums exchanging opinions with random people over the internet that cannot benefit them in any way
with their lack of normal feelings comes are whole variety of other symptoms - they are extremely bored, so they don't sit still, they are very active in life, doing things, going places, achieving whatever their sociopathic goals might be, they take significant risks, and in social interactions are usually on the bully side rather than the victim side


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## Manhattan (Jul 13, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> First off Dexter is a total sociopath and while many are power oriented it doesn't mean they get off on it. I don't know what set of criteria you are referencing. They are somewhat prone to boredom which gives them a propensity for intensity but that does not mean that violence is necessarily the expression.


Dexter has protected Rita's children, been sent into a violent rage over the death of somebody he cares about, kept from killing his sister when she was served up to him (who, let's be honest, doesn't provide any intellectual stimulation or seem to entertain him that much in any other way), cried over the death of his brother, cried over the death of his mother, felt guilt over the terms of his fathers death, etc etc. Dexter feels empathy and cares about those close to him. Rather than an abnormality in his brain that prevents any sort of empathetic link, his mind simply blocked it out as much as possible to protect him from the traumatic experience that made him. The experience of course had another effect: It gave him an extreme urge for violence. Sociopath = no empathy. Dexter = inhibited empathy + an urge for violence. They're similar, but not the exact same. I don't think a sociopath has a dark passenger, I think they are one. 

And we all get off on power. Obviously natural selection rewarded those who craved it and left those behind that did not. Violence is just another form of power. It is a form of power that a bored sociopath would find as very novel stimulation, one which I do not believe they would avoid unless they feared getting caught. What other prohibitions might they have?


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

I still don't know what set of criteria you are referencing. You are not entirely wrong but you are describing a very specific, very extreme kind of sociopathy. There are varying degrees and different forms of it's expression. There are sociopaths who love and protect their children and others around them not because they are empathetic but because they see them as extensions of themselves. They still see them as objects. Sympathy and empathy are not the same thing.

Sociopaths aren't dark passengers, they are capable of empathy they just choose not to be empathetic for whatever reason. To be that way involves some level of personal conflict. Some may be aware of it, some may let it register from time to time, others may limit awareness as much as possible. It's a spectrum.

Power means different things to different people.The fact that they can kill you without caring doesn't mean they want to. Some sociopaths are bums who just want to mooch off of you and be left alone. 

I will agree though that it is a very real disease and receives far more glorification than it ought to on here.


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

Sociopathy vs. Psychopathy | Forensic Focus

both have to do with environmental and biological factors and it's difficult to draw a line on the differences but reguardless, this may help to provide you with an understanding of the different kinds of antisocial.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> There are sociopaths who love and protect their children and others around them not because they are empathetic but because they see them as extensions of themselves.


Sorry to tell you this buy you're WROOOOONG!!!!!!

Sociopaths DO NOT love, DO NOT protect and WOULD NOT see you as extension of anything... If they treat you fairly nice is because they want something from you... If they are nice to a broad amount of people is because they may need a mask of innocence to get away with murder.... And that's the creepiness of the sociopaths: you can't be 100% sure of what they are until it's too late, but there may be clues...


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Dexter is not psychopathic or sociopathic AT ALL!!!!... 

Let's review some points here:

-Dexter and Harrison: Dexter seems to care very much about his kid. Psycho/sociopaths don't care about their children... Their children don't even exist at their mind until they need something from them, and when they do they use to come out with some stupid shitty craving-for-pity face trying to manipulate... 

- Dexter and Rita/Lumen

He seems to be supportive at his relationships (financial, giving advices), but actual sociopaths don't... They are parasitic, financially parasitic and nobody learns anything from them unless they pay very close attention to the psycho's moves and thinking pattern...

So, in my opinion Dexter is just blood friendly...


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

well how can I refute such an intelligent well articulated argument


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Sorry to tell you this buy you're WROOOOONG!!!!!!
> 
> Sociopaths DO NOT love, DO NOT protect and WOULD NOT see you as extension of anything... If they treat you fairly nice is because they want something from you... If they are nice to a broad amount of people is because they may need a mask of innocence to get away with murder.... And that's the creepiness of the sociopaths: you can't be 100% sure of what they are until it's too late, but there may be clues...
> 
> ...


 

traits exist in varying degrees. 

also sociopaths are capable of feeling empathy. they choose not to (its likely they dont do so consciously). they may have difficulty accessing these feelings but a capacity for empathy generally exists (there are exceptions but they are pretty rare). They are difficult to treat but there are plenty of sociopaths who regain this ability through therapy, or simply with time (usually most of the traits associated with ASPD fade out by the patients 40's)


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Psycho/sociopathy is a condition in which the one who has it can't feel remorse at all... The rest is just a byproduct of that... If he/she can feel guilt then he/she's not a socio/psychopath... 

Psycho/sociopathy and concience don't match...


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths. 

Glibness and Superficial Charm 

Manipulative and Conning 
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims. 

Grandiose Sense of Self 
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." 

Pathological Lying 
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests. 

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt 
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. 

Shallow Emotions 
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises. 

Incapacity for Love 

Need for Stimulation 
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common. 

Callousness/Lack of Empathy 
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. 

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature 
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. 

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency 
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. 

Irresponsibility/Unreliability 
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed. 

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity 
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. 

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle 
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. 

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility 
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.


Profile of the Sociopath


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Sociopaths


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> thats really annoying


Hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!!! 

(sorry)







Colton Chaulk said:


> you are less than articulate in expressing your poorly develeped thoughts


I know.... Lousy english.... 



Colton Chaulk said:


> If you took a trip to the library to read more then what you found on google I promise you would come across the information. As a matter of fact I'm sure you could find it on google if you looked.


Look up ..... I googled!.




Colton Chaulk said:


> you would know all traits exist in varying degrees


It's true, but all conditions have basic traits to be recognizable...


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Profile of the Sociopath
> 
> This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
> 
> ...


if you don't quote me i usually won't know you responded. I promise this website is based on some understanding of what sociopathy means. I don't know who wrote this but I promise they put their own spin on it, possibly based on their own interpretation of their experience with a particular sociopath.

I am not disagreeing that their conscience is absent (completely in more extreme circumstances) I am disagreeing as to why. 

Also I think it is important to mention that all people display some anti-social traits. It's the degree. You can tune out your conscience from time to time and it's healthy to do so a little. MY conscience tells me I should finish school and devote my life to starving african children. I can't afford to do that. Maybe I will. Im ranting now

My poing is there is no official line between normal and sociopathy. 

Also you can raise your children because you want to with no dicates from your conscience. You can do so because your biology tells you that you need to ensure the survival of your genes.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> also sociopaths are capable of feeling empathy. they choose not to (its likely they dont do so consciously). they may have difficulty accessing these feelings but a capacity for empathy generally exists (there are exceptions but they are pretty rare). They are difficult to treat but there are plenty of sociopaths who regain this ability through therapy, or simply with time (usually most of the traits associated with ASPD fade out by the patients 40's)... dumbass


Sociopathy (also psychopathy), or Anti-social Personality Disorder (APD) is treated a number of ways though there is no known cure and the effectiveness of available treatments is unclear and controversial.

One basic challenge in treating APD is that the patient typically does not believe he has a problem. The outward personality is often magnetic and charming, not only defending and rationalizing behavior, but often believing the behavior works for him. A grandiose attitude towards the self with a sense of superiority makes the average psychopath believe he is smarter than everyone, including doctors. Many with APD end up in treatment programs only because they are pressured by family members or mandated by court order. 

Mental health care is based upon trusting relationships built between doctors and patients. Sociopathy, by its nature, limits the viability and in some cases the feasibility of such a relationship, as sociopaths often lack the ability to develop close relationships. They can, however, mimic these behaviors. Doctors and clinicians are also subject to manipulation by the sociopath, believing a patient is improving when he’s merely saying what the therapist wants to hear.


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Sociopathy (also psychopathy), or Anti-social Personality Disorder (APD) is treated a number of ways though there is no known cure and the effectiveness of available treatments is unclear and controversial.
> 
> One basic challenge in treating APD is that the patient typically does not believe he has a problem. The outward personality is often magnetic and charming, not only defending and rationalizing behavior, but often believing the behavior works for him. A grandiose attitude towards the self with a sense of superiority makes the average psychopath believe he is smarter than everyone, including doctors. Many with APD end up in treatment programs only because they are pressured by family members or mandated by court order.
> 
> Mental health care is based upon trusting relationships built between doctors and patients. Sociopathy, by its nature, limits the viability and in some cases the feasibility of such a relationship, as sociopaths often lack the ability to develop close relationships. They can, however, mimic these behaviors. Doctors and clinicians are also subject to manipulation by the sociopath, believing a patient is improving when he’s merely saying what the therapist wants to hear.


I never said it was easy to treat _I said it has been treated_. That's called a strawman. 

I believe it might even be that same article that states that sociopaths are capable of recovery, but they have to choose it. Something that is difficult given their tendencies but not impossible.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> if you don't quote me i usually won't know you responded. I promise this website is based on some understanding of what sociopathy means. I don't know who wrote this but I promise they put their own spin on it, possibly based on their own interpretation of their experience with a particular sociopath.
> 
> I am not disagreeing that their conscience is absent (completely in more extreme circumstances) I am disagreeing as to why.
> 
> ...


The thing to figure out is if the condition is biological or environmental.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I never said it was easy to treat I said it has been treated.


Successfully???? Where and by who?


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

I don't have that information handy but I promise it's out there. Whenever it is treated though it has to begin with that person wanting to change.

It is both environmental and biological (I'm sure there are exceptions but I havent heard of one). They have determined that you can predict at a young age with relative certainty whether or not a person will display sociopathic tendencies in adulthood. Also, children of antisocial parents (even children who have not met their parents) are significantly more likely to display anti-social tendencies. They key word there is tendency.

I disagree with you but I respect your spirit and your passion.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I never said it was easy to treat _I said it has been treated_. That's called a strawman.
> 
> I believe it might even be that same article that states that sociopaths are capable of recovery, but they have to choose it. Something that is difficult given their tendencies but not impossible.



Well, at least in theory


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Well, at least in theory


I am going to disagree again, pointing to the fact that generally the traits fade out by the time they are in their 40's.

I dont have the information on treatments that have had some (admittedly very little) success. But they are out there.

I apolagize for sounding like a dick earlier.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I disagree with you but I respect your spirit and your passion.


We're just theorizing here... A real sociopath would fuck your life and when he is over with you he'll find another mark.

I've been there with someone older than 40.... And if he was not sociopath then he reeeeeaaaaalllyyy knew how to make my life miserable!


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> We're just theorizing here... A real sociopath would fuck your life and when he is over with you he'll find another mark.
> 
> I've been there with someone older than 40.... And if he was not sociopath then he reeeeeaaaaalllyyy knew how to make my life miserable!


Well what you consider qualifies a real case of sociopathy is personal and somewhat subjective.

I never said all, I said most of the time the traits fade out by their 40s. Obviously there are sociopaths of all ages, we've all met one (fun fact 1 in 20 people are sociopaths if you didn't know that). I always think of Hannibal Lector.

But I sympathize and am sorry that happened. I think everybody has at least one bad experience with a sociopath at some point or another. Some people's stories are worse than others. It does happen and it sucks.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I apolagize for sounding like a dick earlier.


I like to study people's reactions.... And the net ins the perfect place to be annoying......


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

________________


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> I like to study people's reactions.... And the net ins the perfect place to be annoying......


I will add that it is a real disease that receives way too much glorification. The idea of sociopaths not deserving a bad rap is rediculous


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

Dexter may care about rita and his family but that doesn't change the fact that he cuts people open. how is his sociopathy questionable?


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> Dexter may care about rita and his family but that doesn't change the fact that he cuts people open. how is his sociopathy questionable?


Don't you enjoy fishing? The act of sitting quietly on a boat to wait that some fish fall into the trap to finally have a delicious dinner? Why fishing? Because it is enjoyable and entertaining. which is the excuse to kill fishes? Fishes are eatable. 

So... Why dexter kills killers? 
Because it is enjoyable and entertaining. And which is his excuse? They are people who can't be considered harmless and who the society where they live generally applies the death penalty... Therefore they are killable. The point in question is that throughout the series we have seen that Dexter uses this type of logic to calm his conscience: he never kills innocent people. This kind of excuses are not seen in psychopathical personalities.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

The kind of logic that psychopaths uses is very similar to a chess game, where you have to use, know how to move and even sacrifice pieces to win the game.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Not all sociopaths are killers... They just do "Y" to get "X"...they can be killers if they want some thrill or have bloodlust... They can be corporate sharks if they want money, they can be religious leaders if they want power or mess up with your mind, they can be dictators if they want to rule the world or just be conning if they want someone to provide a confortable lifestyle. But what all of them have in common is that they do all of this without being restrained by concience or remorse.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> I will add that it is a real disease that receives way too much glorification. The idea of sociopaths not deserving a bad rap is rediculous


It uses to receive "so much glorification" because a lot of people would like to be like sociopaths.


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## Cover3 (Feb 2, 2011)

Lol, it isn't true that psychopaths and sociopaths are devoid of any kind of affect for anyone.. by all yardsticks Bundy was one of the worst psychopaths to ever walk, and he still had depressive moments, felt isolated.. what's true is that these emotional moments are only shallow in substance, but to say that psychopaths are emotionless robots is not entirely accurate


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Cover3 said:


> Lol, it isn't true that psychopaths and sociopaths are devoid of any kind of affect for anyone.. by all yardsticks Bundy was one of the worst psychopaths to ever walk, and he still had depressive moments, felt isolated.. what's true is that these emotional moments are only shallow in substance, but to say that psychopaths are emotionless robots is not entirely accurate


I'm researching Bundy right now


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## Cover3 (Feb 2, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> I'm researching Bundy right now


You should read up Cleckley's _Mask of Sanity_ for a realistic insight into what a psychopath is really all about, in fact I recommend it to anyone researching the subject. Hare's work is good as well but I don't like his writing style and characterization.


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Don't you enjoy fishing? The act of sitting quietly on a boat to wait that some fish fall into the trap to finally have a delicious dinner? Why fishing? Because it is enjoyable and entertaining. which is the excuse to kill fishes? Fishes are eatable.
> 
> So... Why dexter kills killers?
> Because it is enjoyable and entertaining. And which is his excuse? They are people who can't be considered harmless and who the society where they live generally applies the death penalty... Therefore they are killable. The point in question is that throughout the series we have seen that Dexter uses this type of logic to calm his conscience: he never kills innocent people. This kind of excuses are not seen in psychopathical personalities.


He doesnt feel the need to kill people because they are bad. He kills bad people because he has an urge to kill and Harry taught him to focus on other killers. Dexter is a ritual killer and the first part of the ritual is finding murderers.

Even though they are bad people it takes a level of sickness to do what he does ritualisitically
Even if that was his motive dexter is ritualistic and has a sick somewhat unnecessary way of doing it. He usually doesn't have to kill anybody. He could just as well become a detective with his ability to track people down, apprehend them (incapacitate them himself if need be) and let them go through the criminal justice system. If he is that sure that these people have killed he could just as well present those findings to the court. He doesn't. We ties them up and hacks at them with a circular saw (I think, I haven't seen the show in forever), and puts the pieces in garbage bags.

I think there is some deviation from the book though where we was more truely sociopathic. THere were moments on the show where he seemed to care about right and wrong.

Reguardless. He cuts people up and while his choice in target makes it sound great in theory, in real life it is a little on the sick side. I'm not judging anybody he's just undeniably troubled.

Awesome show though. I saw seasons 1 and 2 and then a couple episodes from the one with the chick from 10 Things I Hate About You and reallized I need to catch up.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> He doesn't kill people because they are bad. He kills bad people because he has an urge to kill and Harry taught him to focus on other killers.
> 
> Even though they are bad people it takes a level of sickness to do what he does ritualisitically
> Even if that was his motive dexter is ritualistic and has a sick somewhat unnecessary way of doing it


He couldn't kill Debra...


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Perhaps because it would lower tv ratings?


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> He couldn't kill Debra...


I mean that really is cool, but imagine any sociopath youv'e known and tell me that he/she would be less of a sociopath if they were presented with the oppertunity to kill their mother and didn't

He was under pressure in the show but still. Sociopathy may make you unable to feel guilt but sociopathy is a disease people have, and people are capable of empathy, sometimes it takes extreme moments like that for them to access them though. 

It also doesn't change that he's a serial killer. Not all sociopaths are serial killers but all serial killers are sociopaths


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## The Bird Person (Oct 28, 2011)

rainsnake67 said:


> Perhaps because it would lower tv ratings?


I agree that nobody would want to watch a show like that. The book portrays him as amuch colder characcter. His relationship with (I forgot her name but the woman he had the kid with) was completely different.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> imagine any sociopath youv'e known and tell me that he/she would be less of a sociopath if they were presented with the oppertunity to kill their mother and didn't


No. But they also wouldn't say something like Dex's "im very fond of her"...




Colton Chaulk said:


> It also doesn't change that he's a serial killer. Not all sociopaths are serial killers but all serial killers are sociopaths


Agree... And another thing is that the character was made to be likable and not like the real monster.


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Colton Chaulk said:


> He doesnt feel the need to kill people because they are bad. He kills bad people because he has an urge to kill and Harry taught him to focus on other killers.



That's what i said... He kills because he finds it amusing...



Colton Chaulk said:


> ...and let them go through the criminal justice system.


the criminal justice system??? Where's the fun in that????. Remember that he does what he does because of fun, not because of him caring about people's welfare. 




Colton Chaulk said:


> If he is that sure that these people have killed he could just as well present those findings to the court. He doesn't.
> 
> We ties them up and hacks at them with a circular saw (I think, I haven't seen the show in forever), and puts the pieces in garbage bags.


Why let pass this kind of oportunity when is just as justified as if the "legal system" does it? 




Colton Chaulk said:


> I think there is some deviation from the book though where we was more truely sociopathic.


Agree



Colton Chaulk said:


> He cuts people up and while his choice in target makes it sound great in theory, in real life it is a little on the sick side. I'm not judging anybody he's just undeniably troubled.


I would use the word "sick side" but "complicated side" for the real life case, and surely even if it is or not justified, that kind of behaviour surely would f*ck any mind up...


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## Eliyahu (Aug 24, 2011)

Cover3 said:


> You should read up Cleckley's _Mask of Sanity_ for a realistic insight into what a psychopath is really all about, in fact I recommend it to anyone researching the subject.


Thanks... I will


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