# Revisiting Personality Loops



## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

@Veggie was asking ENTPs to describe the Ne-Fe loop here: http://personalitycafe.com/entp-forum-visionaries/556538-ne-fe-loops-4.html . Since it is such a huge topic, I believe it deserves its own thread. For those who don't know what a personality loop is, this thread from 5 years ago explains it more in-depth http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html

For a quick synopsis, personality loops are a result of low self-esteem or disillusionment that results in a person feeling vulnerable. As coping mechanism, they reach for their tertiary function, in order to support their dominant function. Sometimes they might be temporary, as a kind of phase. Others see the loop become intertwined with their personality to where the damage becomes permanent. If you think that you have two introverted/extroverted functions as your strongest, then good news; it's not supposed to be that way! For an easy way to understand it, looped extroverts tend to be overcompensating narcissists while looped introverts are hermits who don't trust anybody. The main thing to keep in mind, is that genuine empathy is difficult because those in a loop are more focused about protecting themselves. This doesn't make them heartless, as I've known plenty of imbalanced people who were kind-hearted and do great things for others. It's pitiful, however, that the root of their actions is derived from their own feelings of worthlessness. Other imbalanced people might take a more utilitarian/sociopathic view. Each person evolves in their own unique way, but there are similarities that can be categorized by type.

The thing with permanent loops is that they are not the person's direct fault. They are defense mechanisms that arise from being bullied, mistreated, or abused. It is actually a pitiful cycle as the victims protect themselves by creating a false persona that keeps people from trusting/liking them or it causes them to be detached from the world, in order to protect themselves. When you were hurt by others, you retreated to protect yourself because you knew you were the one person you could depend on to not cause you pain. It's an avoidant trait that could lead to schizotypal, paranoia, or schizoid disorders. It doesn't manifest as common narcissism because the introvert is looking to avoid people. Extroverts are more likely to develop histrionic, borderline, or narcissistic traits. 

I liked some of what the author proposed, in the original thread from 5 years ago, but I believe that it was too simplified. For one, the loops don't necessarily have a name that perfectly matches with a personality disorder. I'll do five separate posts based on weakened auxiliary functions: Opening 2.Introverted/3.Extroverted Judgment and 4.Introverted/5.Extroverted Perception. I do this for people who reply won't end up sharing the entire thing. Psychology is a soft science so everything I present in theory based on observation. It isn't testable so I won't act like it's all facts. I am an ENTP, however, so I will present this as if it's a fact.

As far as my credentials, I am 26 and have religiously studied psychology for several years as it allows me to relate to people. I have many sociopathic traits, as I used to be in a loop myself. Without going in-depth, know that being a sociopath does not automatically make someone an evil serial killer or manipulator. It just means we lack emotions, operate under pure utilitarian logic, and contradict that last part by being impulsive. This is important as a personality loop can result in a person becoming a sociopath or might because they were born psychopaths (I am unsure which one I am). I began to study psychology as a way to learn how to convince others to like me. I went through the phase where I thought there was something wrong with other personality types. I used to get annoyed at ISTPs, for example, because they'd always act like I was full of shit. When I discovered they were right, my world came crashing down, existentially. It felt dramatic at the time, because I was more of a narcissist. As I realized how insignificant I am, I actually learned to love myself and my ego is intact. That being said, I really don't have affective empathy for others. However, I do have cognitive empathy as I can understand how people are the way they are. Whenever I meet someone, I study them instead of trying to relate to them like a normal person does. I'd love to be a psychologist, but I've screwed so much up that going back for my graduate degree is out of the question, right now.

Some points to keep in mind, before we begin:
1. Know your functions. I using both dichotomies and function stacks as a reference. I am posting on PerC because I assume those reading this are already familiar with Jungian Typology. Additionally, I agree with the Socionics "Model A" school of thought, regarding function order. Socionics Model A
2. I will use generalities because I cannot break down all 7 billion people, individually.
3. MBTI assumes a person is cognitively balanced, when testing people. Your 4 letters is a code that describes how a person's functions _should_ stack, according to type. I agree with the should part because the people that'd I describe as healthy are functionally balanced in accordance with their type.
4. Functions can be used for a wide variety of skills and personas. For example, my Fe is decent, as a skill. I can be charming, cooperative, and respectful of social situations. However, it is not an identity as I don't use it to relate to people, emotionally. Another example is I've known lazy judgment types and busy body perceptive types. Some ESTJs can be laid-back so that their persona is not in line with 'typical' judgment. Nevertheless, the ones I know were straight to business when needed to be and loved to deliver subjective statements, which Te is fond of.
5. Everybody uses every function, to varying degrees. Your top two are you preferred "default" functions. If a car is moving towards me, I can use Se to sense that I should move out of the way. Te users can be really friendly and charismatic while Fe users can be bossy. Like I said in #4, they are also skills that can be developed, but our preferred functions is based on type.
6. If any of this describes you, I'm not judging you. You decide whatever you want, I'm just psychoanalyzing.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

*First up: ExxPs.*
This will be the most in-depth as I can personally relate. These types have weakened Ji/internal judgment (Ti or Fi) and overcompensating Je/external judgment (Te or Fe). Ji is how we judge ourselves and Je is how we sync with people. ExxPs also have inferior Pi/Internal perception (Si and Ni). The extroverted perceiver can discover plenty about the outer world, but has trouble perceiving who they are and how others perceive them. This is why ExxPs are the most clueless about the personality loop. Si allows someone to perceive their role within the sensory world while Ni is more existential. ExxPs do not know self-actualize their role until much later in life. This means their ego is constantly evolving which in turn means their personality loop is much easier to break out of. Movies about someone "Finding themselves" are sooo ExxP as self-actualization is the end-goal for living a balanced life. What delays this process, for a looper, is that Ji does not do a good job a validating themselves. Ji partly serves as a way for a person to judge themselves. A person with low Ti does not think highly of themselves and looks outside for emotional support. A person with low Fi does not feel like they are valuable and so they look for rational support to validate themselves.

1. *ExTP in a loop Pe>Fe>Ti* _Potentially Associated PDs: Compensatory narcissism, histrionic, antisocial, manic impulsive, and situational depression.
_
These people are going to be extra charming and friendly. At a certain point, an unbalanced ExTP can become one of the most charismatic people you ever meet. This is because the Ne or Se is looking for ways to interact with the world, and Ti is thinking of ways to use Fe to do that. Many comedians struggled with this specific loop, as comedy was a way to voice the insecurities of Ti through a personal connection using Fe. ExxPs might get depressed, but Ti still exists to where they can overcome the feelings with rational logic. Privately, they can be lonely and moody; some might be suicidal. _With Enneagram their types are likely 7w8, 3w2, and 9w1 at unhealthy levels. They are annoying enthusiastic, seek out the spot light, twist conversations to focus on them, and act as though they are never at fault._

Looped ExTPs can also be loud and offensive, seeking to get reactions from people by breaking social constructs. The ESTP is more likely to break laws, act sexually explicit and promiscuous, act aggressively towards perceived threats, and mock noticeable sensory features of others. The ESTPs who are looped might still show a lot of thinking preference but give off a con-man vibe. Real life example: _I know an ESTP girl who used to be bullied because she was short and Jewish with dark skin. She later developed quite well aesthetically, and became a major slut. She didn't think highly of herself (Ti) so she protected herself by being friendly in both social and sexual settings. She would get mad if someone insulted her and would use Fe, skillfully, to gossip about other people. _

The ENTP, on the other hand, is using intuition. They might behave lawfully, but commit more minor social infractions. Sexually, they might whore themselves out, but they are more likely to act as a hopeless romantic and envision how others will love them. These ENTPs like to brag how much they care for other people and how full of love they are. For them, winning a partner's love is a prize to be won. They are more likely to be offended by insults to their intelligence as a looped ENTP usually thinks they are brilliant and unique. I have many examples of my type as I lived it, myself, and easily recognize it in other ENTPs. I think it is relatively common as Ne can be a pretty weird function, without a supporting function. As kids, many of us are probably seen as weird or eccentric, which can lead to the low self-esteem which causes the loop. Example: _I once worked with an unbalanced ENTP at a warehouse. He talked all the time and would go up to people saying "Heeey Buddy" in a pleasant drawl. He was full of himself as he always tried to position himself for better daily jobs, built up a small posse that lapped up his theories, and was eventually fired for sexual harrassment, which "totally" wasn't his fault._


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Looks like I'll do 8 parts to it'll be easier to follow.

*2. ExFP in a loop Pe>Te>Fi* _Potentially Associated PDs: Borderline, histrionic, bipolar, and clinical depression_ 

These types have a low self-esteem because they feel worthless. When Fi is developing, in adolescence, it can be fragile and emotional damage done before or during this period is what causes the loop. Experiencing loneliness and rejection is a painful thing, and the ExFP reacts with authority and anger to perceived slights. Depression is common in Fi users, but the looped ExFPs drown it through extreme attention seeking. They want everyone to see how genuine, idealistic, and fun they are. I can tolerate a lot of unbalanced people, but looped ExFPs are the most frustrating to deal with, for me personally. They loudly voice their opinion, by reaching for facts to validate their fragile feelings. Borderline traits are definitely common in this personality loop. They want to avoid anything that will inflict pain so they usually have a fear of rejection and abandonment. Because Fi is low, Te plans ways to make sure their fears never become true. If they do perceive an infraction they will rationalize that it was the other person not behaving well. Additionally, they use Te to sync with others by establishing like minded ideals and rules for relationships. _With Enneagram their types are likely 4w3, 7w8, and 1w9, in whatever order, at unhealthy levels. They flaunt their uniqueness, demand attention, and want the world to adapt to them._

The average ESFP is usually carefree, friendly, and full of life. They can be responsible too, but look forward to living in the moment, most. Unbalanced ESFPs are moody and always searching for the next "fun thing". Basically, like an extreme caricature of a normal ESFP. What separates them is the erratic way they swing their big club of Te judgment. Disagree with them, prepared to be yelled out. Steal their lover at the club, they are going to break a wall. Because Fi is weak, Te determines that other people are not behaving in the proper way. The typical response is impassioned rants, hissy fits, and bossiness. They really like to brag about how unique they are. Example: _I know an ESFP guy who was a man whore. He used to be bullied, so as a result he would use Fi to connect with girls who were like minded, but it was never a genuine compassion. He would get angry if you bruised his ego. As far as I know, he is still the same asshole. Once again, it's ironic how a person who has been hurt by other people can become insufferable._

The average ENFP is full of idealistic concepts, compassionate about others, and wants to experience the world in their own fun, unique way. They can be a real Social Justice Warrior. Well, the unbalanced ENFP puts the Justice Warrior in SJW. Immoral injustices are more than a slight against humanity, as they are also a slight against their individual self. They are constantly looking for approval from others, because Ne is inclusive. Example: _One of my unbalanced ENFP friends is completely full of shit. He has gotten better, throughout the years, but he used to be insufferable as he would make up stories to make himself appear interesting. He adopted a semi ESTJ persona as he'd like to quip traditional Southern phrases about responsibility and what it means to be a man. From a regular ESTJ, it would be natural, but it was forced from him. He stays in our circle, because he is one of the most loyal guys. Outwardly he presents himself as firm or confident, but if you play him right, he'll drop everything to help you out, because he craves emotional validation so much. It's a pity that he feels so worthless, because he's not a bad guy. But it's hard for him to recover his self-esteem, because rubs people the wrong way by telling outlandish lies which reveals his fragile nature._


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Hey @sah6635, just subscribing to the thread for now. It is quite an interesting topic that you developped, but I don't have the time right now to read it. So I ll just steal this spot


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Alright I've typed way too much, and I'm tired of typing so I'll keep the rest simple. I don't want to be another ENTP who starts a project he can't finish.

*ExxJ in a loop Je>Pe>Pi.* _Potentially Associated PDs: All can be Obsessive Compulsive. Histrionic & Paranoia (ENJs) Borderline & Antisocial (ETJs) Compensatory Narcissism & Dependent (EFJs) _

For ExxJ types, the issue lies with a lack of purpose. Their end-goal cognitively is to determine how they subjectively judge themselves through either Fi and Ti as it connects to how they objectively judge the world. ExTJs wants to believe they are a good person while ExFJs wants to believe they are principled and can stand up for themselves. Self-actualization cannot be properly achieved without them first knowing how to perceive their role, as discussed above. The average SJ will cite things like being a good family member, friend, and citizen in the community. NJs generally desire something more intrinsic like being a valued member of the universe and a noble citizen of the world. Basically, their self value comes from having purpose. _For ExTJs their enneagram is usually type 8 and looped types will be at unhealthy levels, probably 8w7. For unbalanced ExFJs they are usually overly involved type 2s or delusional type 3s._

-The unbalanced ExTJ is similar to the unbalanced ExFP, except Te>Pe. They are very quick to give their opinion, like making jokes that specifically put people down, and complain about how people never act right (More than your average ExTJ). They'd take pride in their work, and demand special recognition while being quick to point out anyone who isn't as 'useful as them'. If you ever work for one of them, always be sure to acknowledge them as royalty. Example: _An ESTJ, I know, has served 4 tours in Iraq. It's a way for him to forget about the depression he's always in. Publicly, he comes off like a real narcissistic sociopath. He's a tall, muscular guy so he loves making fun of people and doesn't fear repercussions. When he's back in the states, he abuses alcohol most of the day and is a regular at a local college bar, despite being 31, at this point. He's slept with a lot of girls, but has no idea how to relate to them. Instead he publicly bashes them. Despite his public persona, his alcohol dependence indicates that he has very little self-worth. For him, being in public is a show and he thrives in the spotlight as a war veteran who happens to be an asshole._
_I do not have a good personal story about a looped ENTJ, but they would be paranoid of people's intentions, because of how wonky their Ni is. They'd compensate by taking control of everything they do, and making outlandish demands to prove loyalty or cooperation. I think of Thorin from_ The Hobbit.

Unbalanced ExFJs can be sincere, but they really know how to turn on the fake charm. They can be really catty and love to gossip about people. Of course, Fe users love group gossip, and looped ExFJs can be the real queen/king bee. I think these unbalanced types are what comes to mind when Fi users relate why they hate Fe. Simply put, many looped ExFJ are probably more fake than genuine in a public setting. This is because they are afraid to reveal their true feelings. This is the compensatory component. Some are not full of themselves, but their low self-esteem shows. Example: _One of my ESFJ friends is always proposing fun ideas for the whole group to do and is hurt when others shoot them down. When I had him take a quick MBTI test, he got ENTP, because Ne is something he values and he's sometimes ashamed of how nice he is. He is basically a pushover, because his Si does not give him a strong purpose, which means Ti has no chance to give him the backbone to stand up for himself (He might, if he is drunk.) For the past three years, he has been 1 semester away from graduating. He feels like he is doomed to work at the restaurant forever. I've talked to him about low self-esteem and he admits that he has it.
I have another ENFJ friend who was a real loving, sometimes fake, people person. He loved helping others, but often resulted to manipulation as "Honey is sweeter than vinegar." In college, I was the main person who led the way to remove him as president of our organization, about 4 years ago. At the time, he was going through a long Fe-Se loop where he wanted everybody to think he was the most fun guy in the room. He'd get really hurt if someone bad mouthed him, but he'd gossip all day about people. Anyway, he wasn't making grades to continue being president and he lied about it for 3 months. Now, I personally do not care about the grades, but I'd prefer my organization to be run by someone who is more honest, which happened to be another ENFJ. Today, he is much better. He doesn't fake Fe as much and his Ni is much more apparent. Also, he doesn't hold a grudge as he knows he was a wreck._


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

I'll cover introverts another day. You guys are usually more patient, anyway.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

WikiRevolution said:


> Hey @sah6635, just subscribing to the thread for now. It is quite an interesting topic that you developped, but I don't have the time right now to read it. So I ll just steal this spot


How does the extroverted section look? (Other people can comment, too)


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

*Next up: Introverts*

Alright, I'm refreshed and will try to tackle introverts today. This section is much more speculative as A. Introverts using two introverted functions are less likely to cross my path, which means B. I am mostly pulling from what I've seen people post online and how I imagine these looped individuals interact with the world. After all, if extroverts have loops, why wouldn't introverts have them, too? I have met some, like this, just not as many as extroverts. All the examples, above, were the best ones. For example, I've interacted with 5 different looped ESTJs, that I identified, and so I choose one of the more extreme variations. I meet ESTJs all the time, so it's easy to see which ones are a little off.

For introverts, their loops result in avoidant behavior rather than narcissist behavior. The idea is that it is better to be isolated from others than to depend on people to validate them. With the looped extroverts, they depend too much on others to fill the void in their life. Looped introverts, however, are missing out on what the world has to offer by realizing humans are "social creatures."

*INxJs in a loop Ni>Ji>Je* 
_Potentially Associate PDs: Schizoid, Paranoia/Anxiety, Clinical Depression, & Dependent. High neurotic traits are almost a guarantee_

Healthy versions of these types are difficult to find as they make up a small portion of the population. Online on sites like PerC, however, they are everywhere, which is where a lot of my interaction comes from. I researched what other threads have to say about INJ loops and what I found is _Nobody agrees what the loop looks life_. So reiterate what I said, from the beginning, the 'loops' I am referring to, *are permanent loops that can completely cripple the psychological development of an individual and are a result of some kind of disillusionment or low self-esteem.* That, my introverted friends, is the thesis.

Focusing on Ni, this function focuses on intuitive self-perception. These types perceive, very well, how others view them, intuitively, and forge an identity based on their unique perception. Ni can also be a skill such as the ability to over prepare for something (I blame all dumb corporate acronyms on NJs). The identity is what I'm focusing on, for these loops as well as the Si loops. The loop comes about because the identity is incomplete. Ni doms, in this loop, are trying to make sense of the world, but find themselves not trusting the people with whom they interact. They are reaching for Se to validate the Ni, but it is too far away. As a result, the INTJs settles on feeling good about themselves while the INFJ focuses on trying to rationalize. The key with this loop, and all other loops, is person subconsciously believes their tertiary function serves their dominant function better than the auxiliary. 

For INTJs, their Ni is uncertain and Te is not being uses to find the facts. With INFJs, Ni does not trust the people that Fe seeks to interact with. Both types have been burned by others in the past, in some way, and Je does not manifest as a way to interact with people. Rather, the auxiliary is used as a way to justify their tertiary Ji. As I said before, both Te & Fe are used as a way to sync up with other people. Conformity is a necessary part of life, because we really aren't individually important. Te recognizes that there are rational ways to behave while Fe seeks to accommodate others and feel their emotions. Because the looped INxJ is disillusioned with the world, they reason their unique individuality will be compromised by synced interactions. Introverted functions must be supported by extroverted functions (& vice-versa), in order to be healthy. Example: _I've only met looped INTJ (that I know of), a guy I went to high school with. What comes to mind, however, is crackpot conspiracy theorist. People who don't believe anything is true and feel the world is against them. This guy was completely indecisive and always needed more information. He lacked confidence in himself and would constantly second guess the decisions he made. He would get angry if you questioned his beliefs. Ni would create a theory so his Te was being used to cherry pick facts which Fi felt good about it. _ Once again, a loop does not mean the auxiliary is non-existent. But instead of forming rational opinions that are universal shared by many others, which Te does, he formed his own, at the Ni+Fi desire to be unique.
Example:_ I also went to high school with an INFJ male who seemed to have put his Fe on hold. We took several AP classes together and he rarely talked. He would come to school and go home. He never talked about his weekend, his interests, or anything. If the teacher called on him, he would uncomfortably give the answer or read from the book. At the time, he seemed like a thinker, but when he talked it was usually friendly, like he was trying to use Fe. Teenagers can be real shit bags so his Ti reasoned that there was no reason to be involved with others. He seems to have matured, especially after joining a church. I am Facebook friends with him and his posts are usually filled with Fe reasoning like how people need to listen to others' feelings instead of dwelling on their own, in order to make the world a better place (just a simplification.) _


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

sah6635 said:


> How does the extroverted section look? (Other people can comment, too)


It makes sense to me.
I am starting to question some periods of my life as permanent loops damn it! 

Also, how would a loop differ from another thing that I experienced which was me becoming very INTJish? Did you experience such thing?
Is it possible to connect loops with Enneagram disintegration? As you kinda touched the topic I wonder if you could dig a little bit deeper.


You have a much stronger background in psychology than me, I just discovered this topic in January 2015  But I started to consider a theory of mine which might be only applicable to ENTPs. 

I consider that our tertiary Fe is semi conscious and kinda painful for us. We try to craft it throughout our lives but we will never really become proficient and comfortable in it. It is like I have to apply a filter of positive information on top of my Fe in order to feel worthy of love and love myself accordingly.

I could understand from there the overcompensation mechanism that results in narcisism (convince yourself & others that you are awesome ).

However, I don't have such a holistic grasp on all the types so thank you 

Also, I read a nice thread from @Abraxas that I think could help understand loops a little bit better since apparently it is important to notice that the Dom/Inferior dichotomy is way sharper than the Aux/Tertiary one. So maybe in some extreme cases it becomes possible to short-circuit the aux.
For the ref : http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/561202-auxiliary-tertiary-attitudes.html


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

@WikiRevolution

There's actually not a lot of evidence to support the Harold Grant function stack, in which the tertiary function has the opposite attitude of the dominant function. That interpretation was not supported by Jung or even Myers-Briggs, and after 50 years of research data pools, there is not only no evidence to support that interpretation, there is actually strong reason to believe it has been disproven completely.

Reckful provided some useful links with more information about this in this post.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Yoiks. Five years on and people are still linking to simulatedworld's twaddle? That's just sad.

As discussed at some length (as is my wont) in this post, Jung's function model for a typical person who qualified as one of his "types" called for the person to have two predominantly conscious functions — a dominant function and an "auxiliary" function that, to a substantial degree, _served_ the dominant function (rather than being "true to its own principle") — and for those two functions to have the _same attitude_ in E/I terms (which Jung referred to as the "conscious attitude"). And Jung's model also envisioned two unconscious functions with the opposite attitude, and with the tertiary function largely serving as a kind of "auxiliary" to the inferior function. So, for example, Jung's function stack for an Ni-dom with a T-aux was Ni-Ti-Fe-Se.

As also discussed in that first linked post, and as the majority of Jung scholars agree, Myers misinterpreted (perhaps mistakenly, perhaps somewhat disingenuously) Jung and claimed that Jung's function stack for an Ni-dom with a T-aux was Ni-Te-Fe-Se — a stack which Myers endorsed but didn't really make much use of.

Then came Harold Grant, an obscure religious writer who declared, in the appendix to Image to Likeness: A Jungian Path in the Gospel Journey (1983), that the attitude of the tertiary function should be viewed as the _same_ as the dominant — a change which, when combined with Myers's adjustment to the auxiliary, resulted in the familiar (to internet forumites) model that says INTJ=Ni-Te-Fi-Se.

Again, to stress, the notion that someone has a tertiary function that (unlike the auxiliary function) has the _same attitude_ as the dominant is inconsistent with _both_ Jung and Myers, and has never been endorsed by the official MBTI folks. And perhaps most importantly, as further discussed in the posts linked at the end of this one, that Harold Grant function stack (and its associated "tandems") has no respectable body of evidence behind it — and indeed, should really be considered all but _disproven_ at this point.

But continuing with our history... fast-forward to 1998, when Lenore Thomson published Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. Unlike the wiser (in this regard, at least) Naomi Quenk, Thomson subscribed to the Grant function stack, and she described a phenomenon that she called the "tertiary problem." Thomson noted that, as between the extraverted and introverted attitudes, people naturally tend to favor their preferred attitude, and she explained that this could sometimes lead — particularly under stressful conditions — to a dysfunctional situation in which an INFP (for example), rather than treating their auxiliary Ne function (which supposedly provides _balance_ to the introverted attitude of their dominant Fi) as their second-in-command, would bypass Ne and, in effect, end up using their tertiary Si function as their second-in-command. And Thomson said that the resulting Fi-Si combination would have a tendency to confine INFPs in their introverted worlds in an unbalanced way, and lead them to fail to adequately "connect" with "the external world."

I believe simulatedworld may have been the guy who coined the term "dom-tert loop" to refer to what's essentially a recycling of Thomson's "tertiary problem," although simulatedworld took Thomson's ball and ran it off the field, out of the stadium, across the parking lot, over the county line, and off into his own little, well, _simulated world_ — as anyone can see who follows the link in the OP to the preposterous post where he proceeds to associate a faulty loop concept based on an invalid functions model with eight of the more well-known personality disorders.

For newcomers not familiar with simulatedworld, he's a former PerC member who I believe did most of his publishing at a now-defunct website that this forum's filters won't allow me to mention (and I'm not complaining, really). On top of managing to get himself permabanned from both PerC and TypologyCentral (although TC subsequently decided to re-member him), he's also written quite a lot of bad type analysis, including his famous warning that if an INT was borderline on J/P, they'd probably be a basket case, because ZOMG, "Ti and Te so heavily contradict everything about the other's ideas and outlooks that you would suffer constant cognitive dissonance and your entire psyche would be totally fragmented."

In any case, and setting aside purported assocations with personality disorders (which the OP rightly found dubious), perhaps the most important point to stress is that simulatedworld's "dom-tert loop," like Thomson's "tertiary problem," is wed to the purported validity of the Harold Grant function stack — where, contrary to Jung and Myers, the dominant and tertiary functions share the same attitude. And reckful is here to tell you that there are strong reasons to think that that aspect (at least) of the Harold Grant function stack is _invalid_ (in terms of its relationship to _reality_, never mind its relation to Jung or Myers) — and anyone who's interested can read more about that in this post, this post and this post.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

@reckful

After 50 damn years, why is MBTI so _stuck_ on functions? It's been half-a-fucking century for christ's sake.

I think if MBTI really wants to continue to cling to Jung's functions they should just re-imagine type dynamics completely. Make each dichotomy it's own thing. I/E = attitude of consciousness. T/F and S/N = function preferences. J/P = ... idk, let's called it "orientation" or whatever, you get the idea. Then, when a person wants to know the theory behind the dichotomies and their facets, you can just explain it _without stacks_. You can just tell them, "well, you prefer the thinking function because you scored pretty clearly in T, and you scored extremely clear in N, so you definitely prefer the intuition function..." My point is, why do we _need_ stacks? We can just _look at the dichotomies_ directly and see where a person's function preferences are.

If I score higher in N than I did in T-over-F, then why can't that be an indication that I prefer the intuition function more than the thinking function _or_ feeling function? I mean, I understand that Myers' original conception of the J/P dichotomy was contingent upon the attitude of the auxiliary function being opposite that of the dominant function, but I don't see why we need to _cling_ to her interpretation of Jung, when it's not as if we can't just go a different direction with it and still be following Jung's original conception of the psyche AND be consistent with data supporting the J/P dichotomy. Just change the fucking theory, shuffle things around, publish some fucking papers in a few journals, host a few conferences, and be fucking done with it already.

You said it yourself, whatever evidence there is for functions essentially piggybacks on the dichotomies. So why don't we just model the functions around the dichotomies instead of the other way around? Politics? Bureaucracy? Marketing and advertising? Like, seriously, what is holding up the show?

I'm sorry, it just infuriates me at a certain point. I'm almost getting sick of posting on websites like these because I'm bored to tears of ridiculous threads about loops and other absurd nonsense.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

@reckful || @Abraxas

You really bring a new fresh light on the topic! This is amazing and thanks a ton for that <3

Ps : I also like the passion you carry in your posts, you seem as rebellious as ENTPs sometimes it is funny


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

WikiRevolution said:


> Ps : I also like the passion you carry in your posts, you seem as rebellious as ENTPs sometimes it is funny


Yeah, it gets to me sometimes. I've invested a lot of my mind into this stuff for many years, so it's a part of me now. Even when I'm not conscious of it, it's in the background of my psyche shaping my impressions and thoughts, so at this point I can't even switch it off. It's become personal, not merely a part of my ego, but something more - it's like a purpose now. One among several others that pertain to facets of my life that have become a part of me as well.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Abraxas said:


> @reckful
> 
> After 50 damn years, why is MBTI so _stuck_ on functions? It's been half-a-fucking century for christ's sake.


As you know (and just in case anyone else might misunderstand), you're preaching to the choir when you talk to me about dichotomies > functions. As explained at length in this post and the posts it links to (directly and indirectly), I agree with James Reynierse that the so-called "cognitive functions" are basically just a "category mistake."

And it's reasonably clear that Myers, despite quite a bit of lip service to Jung and the functions, understood (based on her many years of data-gathering) that the dichotomies were the essential components of Jungian/MBTI type, and that dichotomy _combinations_ were also associated with many noteworthy aspects of personality — but also that there was nothing particularly special about the combinations that are purportedly associated with the eight faux-Jungian functions that people like Linda Berens love to talk about.

And for anyone who's never read it, I've put a sizeable chunk of recycled reckful in the spoiler (from a long INTJforum post that I often link to) that explains why it makes no sense to view the functions as what the MBTI is _really about_ — assuming the "MBTI" you're talking about is Isabel Myers and the _official MBTI folks_. Official MBTI materials have always been heavily dichotomy-dominated and, as Reynierse (among others) has rightly noted, there's now lots of respectable data in support of the dichotomy-centric MBTI, and virtually _no_ respectable body of support for "type dynamics."


* *




Meanwhile, for anyone who thinks that the rejection of the functions that Reynierse advocates would represent a revolutionary shift as far as the "official" MBTI is concerned, I'd argue, to the contrary, that the MBTI has essentially been centered around the dichotomies from the beginning. Aside from the test instruments themselves, the analysis in Myers' Gifts Differing focuses substantially more on the dichotomies than the functions. Myers was a nobody who didn't even have a psychology degree — not to mention a woman in mid-20th-century America — and I assume that background had at least something to do with the fact that her writings tend to somewhat disingenuously downplay the extent to which her typology differs from Jung. So it's no surprise, in that context, that the introductory chapters of Gifts Differing, besides introducing the four dichotomies, also include quite a bit of lip service to Jung's conceptions — or, at least, what Myers claimed were Jung's conceptions — of the dominant and auxiliary functions. But, with that behind her, Chapters 4-7 describe the effects of the "EI Preference," the "SN Preference," the "TF Preference" and the "JP Preference," and those four chapters total _22 pages_. Chapter 8 then describes the eight functions — and that chapter consists _solely_ of a half-page table for each function, for a total of _four pages_. What's more, those four pages were simply Briggs' summaries of Jung's function descriptions, and Myers _ignored_ (and/or adjusted) substantial portions of those in creating her own type portraits. (As one example, as discussed in this post, Myers' IS_Js bear little resemblance to Jung's Si-doms. And for a detailed discussion of the surgery Myers performed on Jung's conception of Te, see this post.)

But most tellingly, following Myers' introductory and portrait chapters, the second half of Gifts Differing — covering a variety of topics, including "Use of the Opposites," "Type and Marriage," "Learning Styles" and "Type and Occupation" — focuses _almost exclusively_ on the dichotomies, both singly and in combinations that don't correspond to the functions. She talks about introverts and extraverts, thinking types and feeling types, intuitives and sensing types, judging types and perceptive types, "INs," "ESs," "NF types," "STs," "introverts with thinking" (i.e., ITs), "EF types," "ESF types," "ISTs" and on and on. At one point in the Type and Marriage chapter, "FJ types with extraverted feeling" are mentioned, but that's very much the exception that proves the rule. References to the functions (and the dichotomy combinations that correspond to them) are almost entirely absent from the book's second half, and on the rare occasions when she refers to one of the two-letter combinations that corresponds to a function — e.g., SJ (Si) — she most often makes no reference to the function. At one point, for example, she notes that "Judging types, especially those who prefer sensing (the –S–J types), like their work to be organized, systematic, and foreseeable." I'm not suggesting that this means Myers didn't really believe in the functions (necessarily, anyway), but she was certainly not a theorist who thought the functions were anything like the main event.

Five years later, the 1985 edition of the MBTI Manual, co-authored by Myers, was even more lopsided in favor of the dichotomies. In a 1990 article ("Review of Research on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator." Perceptual & Motor Skills, 70, 1187) in which John B. Murray concluded that the MBTI's "indices of reliability and validity have been extensively investigated and have been judged acceptable," Murray noted that over 1500 studies were included in the 1985 Manual — many of them either discussed in the text or included in one or more tables of statistics. And good luck finding _any results_ in that manual that are framed in terms of the cognitive functions. The 1985 Manual is full of statistics correlating type with interests, occupations, scholastic achievement, other personality measures, etc. — and the reported correlations _almost exclusively_ involve the four dichotomies, the sixteen types and/or dichotomy combinations with no meaningful function correspondence — with the combinations most often included (by a _wide margin_) being ST, SF, NT and NF. So, on top of the fact that Myers and the rest of the official MBTI establishment were predominantly dichotomy-focused, it's also clear that the independent psychologists conducting many of those studies weren't laboring under any misconception that the MBTI dichotomies were relatively superficial indicators (convenient for testing and/or labeling purposes) while the cognitive functions were what the typology was _really about_.

The third edition of the MBTI Manual was published in 1998 and, according to the Reynierse article I linked to above, it cites a grand total of _eight studies_ involving "type dynamics" (i.e., the functions model) — and Reynierse summarizes them as "six studies that failed, one with a questionable interpretation, and one where contradictory evidence was offered as support." He then notes, "Type theory's claim that type dynamics is superior to the static model and the straightforward contribution of the individual preferences rests on this ephemeral empirical foundation."

And finally, I think it's also worth noting that the 17-page report that an ENFJ (for example) receives after taking the relatively recent MBTI _Step II_ test includes page after page of dichotomy-based analysis (including five separate subscales for each of the four dichotomies) and not a single mention of "extraverted feeling" or "introverted intuition" other than a diagram near the end that shows that "ENFJs like Feeling best, Intuition next, Sensing third and Thinking least," and one brief note about tending to use Feeling in the "outer world" and Intuition in the "inner world." _All the rest_ of the ENFJ descriptions in the report — after the brief initial profile, which isn't broken down by components — are descriptions of N (not Ni or Ne), F (not Fi or Fe) and so on, and they're the _same descriptions_ of N and F (and the five subscales of each) that ENFPs receive in their reports (notwithstanding the fact that ENFJs are Fe-Ni and ENFPs are Ne-Fi). And Nancy Harkey has pointed out that "there is no discussion in the Step II manual of applying type dynamics (dominant, auxiliary etc.) to the overall preferences. I really don't know what that means at the moment, but it is curious."

The more I reread Psychological Types, the more I appreciate the extent to which getting from Jung to the Myers-Briggs typology involved substantial adjustments and additions. I think the formidable job Briggs and Myers did in separating the Jungian wheat from the chaff and modifying and supplementing Jung's theory is grotesquely underappreciated by many internet forumites. Myers may not have been as smart as Jung, and she may not have had a psychology degree, but she and her mother had the benefit of standing on Jung's shoulders, and Myers then spent many years, as a labor of love, designing and refining her test instrument and gathering data from thousands of subjects, leading her to conclude — among other things — that the four dichotomies (as she conceived them), and not the functions, were the main event. I think Myers' conceptions of the dichotomies and the types still leave plenty of room for further improvement but, fifty years later, the results of many more studies — and, in particular, the correlation of the MBTI dichotomies with the Big Five — suggest that, in terms of the basics, Myers pretty much got it right. If Jung were still around, I think he'd mostly approve.



Buuuut for better or worse (and you know where I come down), Myers' lip service to the functions created what proved to be a significant _marketing opportunity_ for a handful of MBTI theorists who've made names for themselves in the last 20 years or so by peddling a more function-centric version of the MBTI.

And for better or worse (and I think it's unfortunate), both the CAPT and the Myers-Briggs Foundation have long reflected the attitude that the MBTI "community" is basically all one big happy family, and — within certain limits — dichotomy-centric theorist/practitioners are free to be dichotomy-centric and function-centric theorist/practitioners are free to be function-centric, and everybody can sell their books and hold their seminars and it's all good.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

@Abraxas and @reckful thanks for posting your input. Just so you know, I will completely ignore it when I continue with the next section.
@WikiRevolution thanks for the feedback.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

@reckful and @Abraxas I will admit fault. I'm not suggesting you're analysis doesn't have merit. Rather I just mean I'm more full steam ahead. I think ole simulated gave a decent rough sketch, but it was way too simplified. That is why intuition is needed to understand that functions are not stagnant and completely separate but instead intertwined with our psyche. That being said, the reason for this thread is because of the amount of people who neglect to use their aux as part of their paradigm. 

For instance, an ESTJ I know is an alcoholic who uses a lot of Te & Ne. He also uses his Si to remember things, being routine, and identify with groups. His Si, however, is flawed as a part of his paradigm which is what I consider to be a "personality loop". To reiterate, the loop does not mean the aux is not doing its job. Instead, the unbalanced person allows the paradigm of the tertiary to override their aux. Instead of being confident in knowing who he is, he spends too much time contemplating the future and winging it. This mentality is great for an INTP, because Ne should be the paradigm for that type. But not for an ESTJ. I told him, recently, that alcohol and the town he lives in isn't the problem. He is the problem and I'll pour one out for him when he dies, which will be soon. Until he thinks he is worth it, to the world, then he will continue to live in a loop of Te judgment of others and Ne idealism. 

Same way that I used to care more about how others felt about me (Fe) instead of what I thought of myself (Ti). I would agree that dom-inf is the most important dichotomy as it's how we self-actualize. Aux-Tert take us down that road, but I do not believe self-actualization can manifest itself, in a healthy way, until we have our functions in the right order of paradigm.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

If people have been following along and seen the trends among the other types, then the final 6 types are pretty simple to understand. As far as someone who is perfectly fine with inconsistency, this last entry won't have the same structure. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized, as stated in my previous comment, that our dom-aux functions serve as a paradigm for our worldview. I perceive the world through hypothetical possibilities and judge the world based on my own subjective rationale. What I've gathered is subjectively empirical as I study every unsuspecting person I interact with. Most people are not heavily unbalanced and sometimes they might be temporary. Continuing with the theme, however, I will focus on what happens when ISxx and INxP types use their dominant and tertiary functions as their paradigm. *Repeating my thesis, they do this as a result of low-self esteem or disillusionment.* If you want to debate function stacks, know that I reference Model A from Socionics: Socionics Model A I also use MBTI letters because it is the common reference in general psychology so a Socionics INTj= MBTI INTP = the INTP type to which I refer.

IxxPs are supposed to be Ji > Pe > Pi. Those in a loop are simply avoiding the chaos that the world has to offer (Pe) by overcompensating with internal perception of why the world does not fit them. Extraverted Perception is how we freely interact in the world, as opposed to extraverted judgment determining how we sync with the world. For whatever reason, an unbalanced IxxP does not believe the world is capable of fulfilling their interaction needs so they depend upon themselves to create the interaction.

For example, I had an ISFP roommate who worked and then went to his room. In his room, he'd watch TV or draw. He also was addicted to opiates (subs) and abused amphetamine, regularly. He used to be more balanced, as his Se would manifest itself as he went to the gym. As he became addicted however, he would use Se for art or to amuse himself, in his room. This does not mean that art is bad for someone, but rather he only did it to disappear from the rest of the world. He could also be manipulative and was very self-centered. His use of Se could extend to being opportunistic to secure drugs, but his Ni was more apparent as he planned, in advance, how to do it. Again, his Se was a servant to the Ni paradigm, which is not how _ISxPs_ are supposed to be.

IxxPs are most likely to disappear into the fantasy of their mind. An unbalanced IxxP, for example, might spend an extremely high amount of their time playing an MMORPG, reading manga/books, working on gadgets, or writing poetry. Basically anything that keeps them focused and feeling happy. Some might have natural disorders, like Aspergers, which naturally lend themselves to this type of avoidant behavior. However, avoiding the world because of this chaos is a shame, for these types, as they would enjoy the adventure if they'd take part. 

The unbalanced ISxJ is similar to the unbalanced INxJ, except they accept a sensory role. What I've noticed from unbalanced ISTJs is how big of pushovers they are. I have an ISTJ friend who used to always let people take advantage of him. He was simply too nice. He really like this girl and watched as other guys flirted with her and took her home. One day, it seems, it just changed as he kind of became an asshole. He hung around a lot of other STJs and they seemed to push him to stand up for himself. This is an example of how the looped introvert needs an outside force to overcome their imbalances, as opposed to the extrovert who finds the cure from within. Today, that ISTJ friend is much more confident and I was at his wedding two months ago.

I haven't meant many unbalanced ISFJs. They just seem to not trust anyone and putter about in a familiar routine. Someone like an "Old Cat Lady" comes to mine.


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## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

Parrot said:


> *First up: ExxPs.*
> This will be the most in-depth as I can personally relate. These types have weakened Ji/internal judgment (Ti or Fi) and overcompensating Je/external judgment (Te or Fe). Ji is how we judge ourselves and Je is how we sync with people. ExxPs also have inferior Pi/Internal perception (Si and Ni). The extroverted perceiver can discover plenty about the outer world, but has trouble perceiving who they are and how others perceive them. This is why ExxPs are the most clueless about the personality loop. Si allows someone to perceive their role within the sensory world while Ni is more existential. ExxPs do not know self-actualize their role until much later in life. This means their ego is constantly evolving which in turn means their personality loop is much easier to break out of. Movies about someone "Finding themselves" are sooo ExxP as self-actualization is the end-goal for living a balanced life. What delays this process, for a looper, is that Ji does not do a good job a validating themselves. Ji partly serves as a way for a person to judge themselves. A person with low Ti does not think highly of themselves and looks outside for emotional support. A person with low Fi does not feel like they are valuable and so they look for rational support to validate themselves.
> 
> 1. *ExTP in a loop Pe>Fe>Ti* _Potentially Associated PDs: Compensatory narcissism, histrionic, antisocial, manic impulsive, and situational depression.
> ...


Finding themselves is even more IP than EP.


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## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

Parrot said:


> *First up: ExxPs.*
> This will be the most in-depth as I can personally relate. These types have weakened Ji/internal judgment (Ti or Fi) and overcompensating Je/external judgment (Te or Fe). Ji is how we judge ourselves and Je is how we sync with people. ExxPs also have inferior Pi/Internal perception (Si and Ni). The extroverted perceiver can discover plenty about the outer world, but has trouble perceiving who they are and how others perceive them. This is why ExxPs are the most clueless about the personality loop. Si allows someone to perceive their role within the sensory world while Ni is more existential. ExxPs do not know self-actualize their role until much later in life. This means their ego is constantly evolving which in turn means their personality loop is much easier to break out of. Movies about someone "Finding themselves" are sooo ExxP as self-actualization is the end-goal for living a balanced life. What delays this process, for a looper, is that Ji does not do a good job a validating themselves. Ji partly serves as a way for a person to judge themselves. A person with low Ti does not think highly of themselves and looks outside for emotional support. A person with low Fi does not feel like they are valuable and so they look for rational support to validate themselves.
> 
> 1. *ExTP in a loop Pe>Fe>Ti* _Potentially Associated PDs: Compensatory narcissism, histrionic, antisocial, manic impulsive, and situational depression.
> ...


Yeah i know an ENTP who is weirdly romantic.


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## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

Parrot said:


> Looks like I'll do 8 parts to it'll be easier to follow.
> 
> *2. ExFP in a loop Pe>Te>Fi* _Potentially Associated PDs: Borderline, histrionic, bipolar, and clinical depression_
> 
> ...


I know an ESFP who bullies colleagues. Her parents separated when she was a child.


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## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

Reckful don't post here. TM ignore him/her.


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## Teen Rose (Aug 4, 2018)

Parrot said:


> If people have been following along and seen the trends among the other types, then the final 6 types are pretty simple to understand. As far as someone who is perfectly fine with inconsistency, this last entry won't have the same structure. I've given it a lot of thought and I realized, as stated in my previous comment, that our dom-aux functions serve as a paradigm for our worldview. I perceive the world through hypothetical possibilities and judge the world based on my own subjective rationale. What I've gathered is subjectively empirical as I study every unsuspecting person I interact with. Most people are not heavily unbalanced and sometimes they might be temporary. Continuing with the theme, however, I will focus on what happens when ISxx and INxP types use their dominant and tertiary functions as their paradigm. *Repeating my thesis, they do this as a result of low-self esteem or disillusionment.* If you want to debate function stacks, know that I reference Model A from Socionics: Socionics Model A I also use MBTI letters because it is the common reference in general psychology so a Socionics INTj= MBTI INTP = the INTP type to which I refer.
> 
> IxxPs are supposed to be Ji > Pe > Pi. Those in a loop are simply avoiding the chaos that the world has to offer (Pe) by overcompensating with internal perception of why the world does not fit them. Extraverted Perception is how we freely interact in the world, as opposed to extraverted judgment determining how we sync with the world. For whatever reason, an unbalanced IxxP does not believe the world is capable of fulfilling their interaction needs so they depend upon themselves to create the interaction.
> 
> ...


We definitely won't. We get drained too fast and we are too simplistic and iam unhealthy INFP but not in a loop.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

@Parrot What a great thread! Thanks for all the excellent info. It was good to brush up on loops.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Teen Rose said:


> We definitely won't. We get drained too fast and we are too simplistic and iam unhealthy INFP but not in a loop.


Hi. I wrote this 4 years ago. I'd probably have different opinions now.


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