# There is no Friend Zone



## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

All right, figure I'll open this thread with an opinion. 

Well, I've had 2 female friends become attracted to me after a protracted platonic friendship. So, that leads me to believe that. . . 

_There is no friend zone. The friend zone is a myth created by men with low self esteem to justify the fact that women are intrinsically not attracted to them_

That's my argument. I pose it mostly because I want to see people argue both sides (So don't think I'm close-minded on this issue, quite the opposite.) 

I am curious about this issue because I have a close female friend and we both became single (The first time that we've both been single simultaneously). Recently, we've been hanging out a lot more but she's an INTP and not a very good flirt, so clearly I have a vested interest in this debate. Just letting you all know where I'm coming from so you understand my PoV. 

All right, let's get this debate started.


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## progBOT (May 4, 2011)

I agree that the "friend zone" is a myth. Whether it was made by men with low self-esteem or that people buy into it because it seems like an easy excuse to just give up is something different. I used to buy into this (majorly) until about 2 years ago when a very good female friend of mine started coming on to me.

I also think that some of the best couples (healthiest relationships) could be formed from being friends first but have yet to test this theory.


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## birthday (Feb 6, 2011)

Eh? In the end we're all animals. There is no such thing as friends in the animal world (except for the man and dog friendship, but hell the pup stays with you because you feed it). It's only about finding a partner and the passing of genes for the next generation. We are not so different. We humans have redefined the mating rules, rituals, ideas, call them whatever you may. Nowadays one has sex for pleasure or for the sake of having children. It's a pitiful thing really. You can't even be friends with the opposite sex on an intellectual level. You know why? Because that eventually leads to emotional attachment. 

Oh the joys of being human. /sarcasm


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## entpIdeas (Jun 6, 2011)

Hard to stay friends if there is mutual attraction..but that's a good thing because it turns into more. Impossible to stay friends if it's one sided attraction. Have a few of these situations going on right now.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

entpIdeas said:


> Hard to stay friends if there is mutual attraction..but that's a good thing because it turns into more. Impossible to stay friends if it's one sided attraction. Have a few of these situations going on right now.


My condolences >_>


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

There definitely is a friend zone. I really have had male friends I wasn't attracted to.

However, sometimes if a male and female develop a close, intimate friendship it naturally turns into something more, because of the level of emotional intimacy if there's any physical attraction, it just is natural I think.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

progBOT said:


> I agree that the "friend zone" is a myth. Whether it was made by men with low self-esteem or that people buy into it because it seems like an easy excuse to just give up is something different. I used to buy into this (majorly) until about 2 years ago when a very good female friend of mine started coming on to me.
> 
> I also think that some of the best couples (healthiest relationships) could be formed from being friends first but have yet to test this theory.


I think people who believe there is no friend zone have really wishful thinking that all of their friends would like to have sex with them.

WTF.


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## progBOT (May 4, 2011)

fourtines said:


> I think people who believe there is no friend zone have really wishful thinking that all of their friends would like to have sex with them.
> 
> WTF.


Lol'd
That's like saying "everyone who isn't my friend wants to have sex with me". Just because I don't believe there is a friend zone, doesn't mean I think all of my friends (perhaps I think none of them) want to have sex with me. I'm just not shutting myself off to the possibility that a friendship could turn into something more. I don't see a problem with that.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

fourtines said:


> There definitely is a friend zone. I really have had male friends I wasn't attracted to.


Hahaha. You're misunderstanding us, I think. 



> However, sometimes if a male and female develop a close, intimate friendship it naturally turns into something more, because of the level of emotional intimacy if there's any physical attraction, it just is natural I think.


Yeah, that's just what I meant. My argument essentially is just because you're friends, that alone doesn't kill romantic potential. 

Guys generally reference the "friend zone" as if protracted friendship makes future romance impossible simply as a result of that friendship. It's by that definition that I'm arguing here. 

I'd argue that if a girl doesn't wanna hook up with you and you're her friend, it's because she isn't attracted to you.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

progBOT said:


> Lol'd
> That's like saying "everyone who isn't my friend wants to have sex with me". Just because I don't believe there is a friend zone, doesn't mean I think all of my friends (perhaps I think none of them) want to have sex with me. I'm just not shutting myself off to the possibility that a friendship could turn into something more. I don't see a problem with that.


There is a friend zone, I'm sorry, but it's true. It really is wishful to think that there simply isn't one, that ANY friendship with ANY female could turn into something more (unless you're not attracted to her, amirite? LOL...k...think about the women you are not attracted to ...and then face the fact that some women aren't attracted to you even if they like you as a person). 

I know an INFJ who is rather tom-boyish in that she seems to have a lot of male friends, but she is like ...more...demisexual or something, she doesn't seem easily attracted to a lot of guys...and she has a couple of close male friends that I'm pretty definitely sure she'd never sleep with. 

Same here. Except that I'm more likely to only get close to men I wouldn't mind sleeping with at my age. In high school I was very naive and would be close friends with guys who I saw seriously as brothers, then was disappointed when they eventually became upset that I didn't want to date them.

So, you know, as I grew up I realized that when you get really close to someone of the opposite sex lines can get blurry on at least one side and to be careful about it.

So, yes, Virginia, there is a friend zone.

It's just that some friendships do turn into relationships. But not all of them, and some of your friends really are not attracted to you.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> > > I'd argue that if a girl doesn't wanna hook up with you and you're her friend, it's because she isn't attracted to you.
> >
> >
> > Oh, i'd have to disagree with that. I had a friend in University that was smoking hot, hotter than the fires of hell, seriously. I was very attracted to him, but...........i respected his friendship more. See if i had dated him, and say we broke up, lets say on bad terms. Then i would have lost twice, a great friend, and romantic partner. See sometimes if the friendship is strong and you have this person who is there for you, believes in you, respects you and so on, is it worth finding out if there is more ? Depends on the guy, how strong the friendship is. Women won't always want to take that risk, or give that up in order to take it to the next level. Yeah, that maybe hard to believe, but its true. I haven't always chased men i was attracted too either.
> > ...


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

I think it is quite common to see someone of the opposite sex purely as a friend and it's not always because you don't think they are good looking. Sometimes you can have a friend that it is good looking, but because they are a friend, you don't see them as being attractive in a sexual way. They are just a "buddy" . 

I do agree that often men complain about the "friend zone" purely because a girl wasn't attracted to them, but still wanted to be friends.

I think some men have the problem of women often tending to see them as friends rather than romantically. Sometimes this is because the girls don't find them physically attractive, but other times it's because the men don't give off the right signals. I think these signals can be quite subtle, but due to not understanding them, I think some men actually "friend zone" themselves by becoming the girls buddy rather than signalling that they are actually interested in them as a potential date. 

If you become the person that the girl goes to, to talk about other guys she is interested in, or she starts giving you advice about how you can get dates with other girls, then i think this is a good sign that you have accidentally friend zoned yourself :laughing:


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## progBOT (May 4, 2011)

@fourtines

OMG LOL.... I am NOT saying that "_ANY_ FRIENDSHIP WITH _ANY_ FEMALE COULD TURN INTO SOMETHING MORE". And I don't know where you are getting that from.

You're saying the EXACT SAME THING AS ME when you say "It's just that some friendships do turn into relationships. But not all of them, and some of your friends really are not attracted to you."

So, It seems we are agreeing that certain friendships where there is a mutual attraction can turn into something more. What we are disagreeing on is the definition of "Friend Zone". I'm assuming from what you've written that a 'friend zone' is a category that women put men when they want to be friends but have absolutely no attraction. In that case, you are undoubtedly right in saying that that won't go anywhere (because by definition there is no attraction). I'm proposing that there is no 'friend zone'. That a guy and a girl can be just friends (like two girls or two guys would be) and attraction has the _possibility_ to build over time (I'm not saying that it _will_). And that once there is attraction, there is a _possibility_ that their friendship could develop into something more.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

progBOT said:


> @fourtines
> 
> OMG LOL.... I am NOT saying that "_ANY_ FRIENDSHIP WITH _ANY_ FEMALE COULD TURN INTO SOMETHING MORE". And I don't know where you are getting that from.
> 
> ...


Well of course.

lol.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Attraction for me is either there or it's not, and I agree that even if there is an attraction, it could still be shut down. A guy could be my friend, but it can only go past friendzone if I'm semi attracted to him (usually his pheromones )

Emotional + intellectual attraction can definitely strengthen the unexplainable physical attraction.


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## MXZCCT (May 29, 2011)

Certaintly there are friendzones, but only because there is a higher degree of rational and integrity for both individuals. They are able to override instinct to have the benefits of a friendship. For the time being.

I do believe that a "friend zone" gets harder and harder to keep as time goes on, assuming some form of constant contact is established.


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

A lot of you posting don't even know what the "friend zone" is.

The "friend zone" does not equal "being friends with a member of the opposite sex".

The "friend zone" is a guy's assumption that once they meet a girl and become her friend, they are stuck being just friends forever and she will never see him in a romantic light, even months or years down the road.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

MuChApArAdOx said:


> Oh, i'd have to disagree with that. I had a friend in University that was smoking hot, hotter than the fires of hell, seriously. I was very attracted to him, but...........i respected his friendship more. See if i had dated him, and say we broke up, lets say on bad terms. Then i would have lost twice, a great friend, and romantic partner. See sometimes if the friendship is strong and you have this person who is there for you, believes in you, respects you and so on, is it worth finding out if there is more ? Depends on the guy, how strong the friendship is. Women won't always want to take that risk, or give that up in order to take it to the next level. Yeah, that maybe hard to believe, but its true. I haven't always chased men i was attracted too either.
> 
> There is DEF a friendzone regardless if there is an attraction or not. Maybe not for all women, but DEF for some.


Not gonna nitpick, but I'd have gone for it. 

I'm more the type to roll the dice anyhow. Besides, I got a couple friends I'd trust w/ my life, but soulmate? Still lookin.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

I pretty much _need_ to be friends first before I will date them; just can't fall for someone's looks...


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## MiriMiriAru (May 1, 2011)

I think this "friend zone" exists, at least for some people. I know, without any doubt, that any male friends I have (at least currently), no matter how close, would never be interested in any kind of non-platonic relationship with me, regardless of any mutual attraction (although, I think any attraction would be very one sided). 

But then, my circumstances are a bit outside the scope of this discussion.

Carry on.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

I like to friend zone but hate being friend zoned. Yeah, that's right. I said it.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

As with most discussions, the lack of clear definition means that not everyone is answering the same question.

What is "friend zone"?


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

As ISTP I only got an acquaintance zone.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Erbse said:


> As ISTP I only got an acquaintance zone.


you mean, those other people are real?!


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## Souljorn (Dec 28, 2010)

I think prolonged relationship among people of opposite sex will lead to attraction and desires of furthering a relationship. Either that or they'll push each other apart....


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Souljorn said:


> I think prolonged relationship among people of opposite sex will lead to attraction and desires of furthering a relationship. Either that or they'll push each other apart....


Not for me.
If there's no attraction at the beginning (there rarely is), and it doesn't develop quite soon, there'll never be any. However, we can remain the best of friends. . .


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

Hmm, I don't think the friend zone is a female only phenomenon? I have a friend zone. I reassess my values and personal desires (not limited to sexual desires) periodically, but certain things are constant. My closest friend is an INFP woman. Though our friendship has evolved into a more familial relationship. Realistically, I am closer (and more candid) with her than any of my family members. There is no prospect of romance because although we've been told we look like a good couple, aesthetically, two obstacles stand in our path:

1. I do not find her sexually attractive
2. Vice versa. 

So we don't flirt, we act like "twins" according to all observers. To me the friend zone is a rubicon that is crossed the moment I know you too well w/o feeling any sexual desire towards you. At that stage I love as a friend. I would never date people that deep in my friend zone because:

a. I know these people too well, which means I know exactly what about them irritates me from time to time.
b. We are naturally more tolerant towards our friends, more inclined to overlook their foibles, which leads to rose tinted glasses syndrome. Those negatives don't vanish just because you've been friends.
c. I know what I want from a romantic interest, and my friends may not necessarily (in my case I know they won't) want those things. 
d. I have seen what happens when dating friends go wrong.

I think there can be a platonic friend zone, just as there are those friends with whom we have some sexual tension or physical chemistry. 
But then, those friend's aren't in my friend zone. A little bit of mystery is necessary for me to want intimacy...


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

I respectfully disagree as well as agree [go figure]. 

Counting on my fingers, I have had at least 20 female friends - about 5 of those were extremely intimate in an emotional way with a lot of sexual tension as well

The way I see it - even if you can't control how you feel about a women or how she feels about you - what you can control is your conduct within the relationship. Explore the possibility of the relationship if it arises. Control the temptations when they arise as well if pursuing a romantic relationship isn't possible due to existing committments. 

4 of those _friendships_ turned romantic. [2 from my side, and 2 from the side of the females I befriended or who befriended me]. I ended up married to 1 of the women I fell in love with. And am currently in an LDR with someone here - which also started off as a friendship. 

The rest of the women I know - are more than friends to me because of the emotional connection I feel with them - but it doesn't man that I pursue them, or they pursue me or that any of us will become limerent after. 

I trust in myself to remain mature and I expect my female friends to remain the same as well. 

I had a lot of sexual tension with a female colleague of mine while I was working with her - the kind where after a deep emotional discussion, I literally wanted to grab her and kiss the hell out of her - the kind where once an accidental touching of the hands sent electricity shooting through my body. 

But again ... it comes down to conduct, life choices, goals and impulse control. A deep emotionally strong and mutually beneficial friendship can exist between myself and my female friends -- it's not impossible.


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## Kylar (Nov 8, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> All right, figure I'll open this thread with an opinion.
> 
> Well, I've had 2 female friends become attracted to me after a protracted platonic friendship. So, that leads me to believe that. . .
> 
> ...


What debate you are right. i find that when I guy has any friendship with an attractive girl it always has sexual tension involved. I just accept this and compliment any girl I find attractive and be generally "flirty" without breaking any rules or hurting people.


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## OwLY (Jun 12, 2011)

Sometimes I feel like the friend zone is simply just a device people use as an excuse to dismiss the fact that a real relationship was not plausible. Often times the person who is put into the zone is experiencing a state of limerence and is not thinking clearly anyway. I don't have much else to add other than the fact that every situation of friend zoning is different. One might be zoned because the opposite is simply afraid of ruining the relationship, on the other hand they could also be completely oblivious to the zoned's feelings and is really only manipulating him/her.

Also I couldn't help but notice


Jawz said:


> Counting on my fingers, I have had at least 20 female friends


Jawz, you have _a lot_ of fingers. :tongue:


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

OwLY said:


> Jawz, you have _a lot_ of fingers. :tongue:


Lol 

I can count up to 30 on my fingers XD --- 3 on each  I use the lines as separators


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Jawz said:


> Lol
> 
> I can count up to 30 on my fingers XD --- 3 on each  I use the lines as separators


Draw on a few more and you may be able to get to 100.:tongue:


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## Vaan (Dec 19, 2010)

what the hell is the friend zone anyway? Is that like the twilight zone?


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## kemmicals (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think I could ever date someone who I hadn't have been somewhat attracted to to begin with, especially after being platonic for so long.
I know this definitely doesn't apply to all girls, or many at all tbh, but to me it'd kinda be like hooking up with a brother..


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## Napoleptic (Oct 29, 2010)

For years I puzzled over the friend zone thing, assuming it was a myth because it doesn't exist for me. Then I heard some very compelling statements from people for whom it does, and realized that I was simply looking at it wrong.

It's not whether the friend zone exists - it's a question of whether it exists *for the individual in question*.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

"friend zone" is subjective, just like "nice guys" "bad boys" "princesses" and many other general broad infesting cliches that plague society's/personal views on relationships.


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## blit (Dec 17, 2010)

Jawz said:


> Lol
> 
> I can count up to 30 on my fingers XD --- 3 on each  I use the lines as separators


You can count to 1024, 59049, and more with only ten fingers (and without that finger flashing stuff).


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## Jamie.Ether (Jul 1, 2011)

Whenever I hear people who believe in "the friend zone" talk about it, it's guys who are attracted to a girl who just isn't attracted to them in that way.
I don't think it's a zone people are put in. If someone doesn't like you, then they don't like you. There is such a thing as platonic relationships.
I hear the friend zone being blamed by the same guys who say they have the nice guy curse [or something of the sort]. I think it's b.s.
It's mostly used by guys who are attracted to a girl but never make a move and then try to blame it on them being "nice", when really they are being overly passive. If there is such a thing as "the friend zone", people put themselves there rather than being placed there.


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## chill.take.over (Apr 26, 2011)

I have never called it "the friend zone," I always thought a media phrase. Sometimes folks really ain't into you like that, or you into them.


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## entpIdeas (Jun 6, 2011)

I plan to unfriend zone someone tomorrow hmmmm hope he's into it.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

If a guy is attracted to a girl, but the girl would never, ever see a potential between them (regardless of he hit on her originally), is that still friendzone?


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

yeah friend zone is a way of categorizing our mistakes so we can learn and improve

staying in the friend zone would be a different issue all together

the staying in the same zone and not doing anything different zone


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## JiminyCrick (Dec 18, 2011)

This question is really hard to answer because of course you are going to be somewhat attracted to your friends mentally (or else why are you their friend) and this usually crosses over into physical attraction. We've all had physical attraction to our friends at one time or another but I believe you can still be friends even when attraction is present. 

Just because I find my guy friend cute it does not always mean I want to sleep with him or date him. On the other side, I think it's also possible to act on your physical attraction and still remain in that friend space. I fooled around with my old roommate a couple of times yet had no desire for that to be a continuing occurrence or to develop that into something further then friendship. We still remain great friends even though we acted on a mutual physical attraction. It seems to me that sleeping with somebody automatically means you are no longer friends and have crossed some boundary into something else, which I don't believe is the case. But that could just be me being "a guy about things" (as I'm often told) and not getting emotionally tangled in a physical expression.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)




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## Deni (Aug 7, 2011)

There is such thing as a friend zone and that's where no guy want's to be if he ever want's to be with a female. One of my female friends told me this once and I will never forget it she said...

" I liked this one guy, We started off friends so I could see if he was capable of being more than a friend, After getting to know him I decided that he was only good enough to be in the friend zone "

Which basically means that everything is a test to females >_>


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

JiminyCrick said:


> This question is really hard to answer because of course you are going to be somewhat attracted to your friends mentally (or else why are you their friend) and this usually crosses over into physical attraction. We've all had physical attraction to our friends at one time or another but I believe you can still be friends even when attraction is present.
> 
> Just because I find my guy friend cute it does not always mean I want to sleep with him or date him. On the other side, I think it's also possible to act on your physical attraction and still remain in that friend space. I fooled around with my old roommate a couple of times yet had no desire for that to be a continuing occurrence or to develop that into something further then friendship. We still remain great friends even though we acted on a mutual physical attraction. It seems to me that sleeping with somebody automatically means you are no longer friends and have crossed some boundary into something else, which I don't believe is the case. But that could just be me being "a guy about things" (as I'm often told) and not getting emotionally tangled in a physical expression.


 Please become a public figure as a relationship expert and be well respected with opinions such as these. I'm dead serious. A best seller among women with this kind of attitude is what the world needs


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> All right, figure I'll open this thread with an opinion.
> 
> Well, I've had 2 female friends become attracted to me after a protracted platonic friendship. So, that leads me to believe that. . .
> 
> ...


I agree with this. if anything, becoming attracted to someone you're friends with only makes the fireworks more intense. to me, it's more of a quadrant with a score from 1-10 in sexiness and 1-10 in friendship
low friendship + low sexiness = ignore list
low friendship + high sexiness = eye candy
high friendship + low sexiness = just friends
high friendship + high sexiness = everything rolled into one package

note: the numbers can raise or drop as people change and relationship dynamics differ. it's not a static thing

personally, I rarely even get attracted to someone who I can't become reasonable friends with. I like the whole "oh yeah, we're just friends but we have sex sometimes -_^" dynamic. imagine one of those middle/high school sleep overs where you play silly games, take your clothes off and get to know one another better....only with a hot chick (or several, or whatever you're attracted to)...yeah, that's the kind of dynamic I like -_^ 
as opposed to "hey! you're hot, let's have sex!" um....boring! :dry:


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## NotedBook300 (Sep 24, 2011)

I think there is a friend zone. However, I don't think it's as big a deal as a share of men make it out to be. I generally don't make friends with women I'm attracted to, though.


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## Athena (Apr 10, 2010)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


>


OK, so I posted this same thing on my fb last week, and it caused one "friend" to not only hit on me, but kiss me. When I made it clear I wasn't accepting the kiss, he tried to do it again! He even mentioned the video! I was like dude, that was NOT a flirt, I was just genuinely surprised by the video and posted it.

I've been told I am oblivious to the number of guys that are attracted to me, and my recent divorce has really driven home the point. I can't believe the number of people who are looking me up now that I had NO CLUE were interested in any way, at all. I hate to sound like a stuck-up bitch, but its kind of annoying, especially the aggressive reaction I described above. I guess my point is that I definitely friend-zoned a lot of people without knowing it, and do it now consciously.

I can't see many guys doing it though; they tend to avoid chicks whose feelings they don't reciprocate. I know all the previous posters with exceptions, but seriously, Average Joe won't care to be your friend if he doesn't like you back - he has friends already.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Athena said:


> OK, so I posted this same thing on my fb last week, and it caused one "friend" to not only hit on me, but kiss me. When I made it clear I wasn't accepting the kiss, he tried to do it again! He even mentioned the video! I was like dude, that was NOT a flirt, I was just genuinely surprised by the video and posted it.
> 
> I've been told I am oblivious to the number of guys that are attracted to me, and my recent divorce has really driven home the point. I can't believe the number of people who are looking me up now that I had NO CLUE were interested in any way, at all. I hate to sound like a stuck-up bitch, but its kind of annoying, especially the aggressive reaction I described above. I guess my point is that I definitely friend-zoned a lot of people without knowing it, and do it now consciously.
> 
> I can't see many guys doing it though; they tend to avoid chicks whose feelings they don't reciprocate. I know all the previous posters with exceptions, but seriously, Average Joe won't care to be your friend if he doesn't like you back - he has friends already.


 We need a friend-zone awareness day for females in my opinion.


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

Deni said:


> There is such thing as a friend zone and that's where no guy want's to be if he ever want's to be with a female. One of my female friends told me this once and I will never forget it she said...
> 
> " I liked this one guy, We started off friends so I could see if he was capable of being more than a friend, After getting to know him I decided that he was only good enough to be in the friend zone "
> 
> Which basically means that everything is a test to females >_>


in conjunction with this women more often than not have way more options to choose from they can wait for another guy to come along if the one(s) currently flirting with her doesnt fit her idealistic goal *friend* "next in line please"


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## TaylorP (Mar 22, 2011)

Did you ever think they got tired of looking and figure they just take whats right their in front of them?


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

oh this is just too rich


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Btmangan said:


> _There is no friend zone. The friend zone is a myth created by men with low self esteem to justify the fact that women are intrinsically not attracted to them_


Yep. Like most 'rules' of attraction, it doesn't always apply - not by a long-shot. People feel intimidated by attraction, and want to prescribe these simple explanations. Thing is, attraction is -anything- but simple, and no one can figure out exactly how it works. Thing is, you can offer all these exceptions to the rules, but you'll still have the scared, ignorant, insecure, wanting to discredit it even though obviously the exceptions exist. Its maddening.



PeteTheZombie said:


> oh this is just too rich


Love has to do with emotions, and not someone's stats. I see guys bellyache over this all the time: "it doesn't make SENSE why she would pick him over me." Well, love doesn't make sense, and people can't choose who they fall in love with. 

Also, not everyone is potentially attracted to just anyone else. I don't see the point in people shitfitting over it. If someone isn't attracted to you in return, then they simply aren't for you. Next.



Thomas D M Thompson said:


> We need a friend-zone awareness day for females in my opinion.


No woman is required to give anyone a chance simply because he has a hard-on for her. Its like some guys assume that simply because they find a girl attractive, that shes required to at least consider it. That is dehumanizing to women. No woman owes any man anything. And if a female wants to be friends with a male -- well thats great, he just made a new friend, not a non-girlfriend/fuckbuddy. Can't women be more than just sex?
(I realize this member is gone. This is a statement and question for those who also think this way.)


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

Promethea said:


> *Love has to do with emotions, and not someone's stats.*


You love being treated like dirt?
Pretty sure you have to like the person as a whole to love them



> *Well, love doesn't make sense, and people can't choose who they fall in love with.*


I would say to a degree people can choose who they love...
if you love someone to death but 2 years later you find out they are a baby shaking old lady tripping Hitler high fiving mass murderer X political party person....ect ect
you can safely say uhh i dont love you anymore
please stay away from me

obviously an extreme example but proof of concept






> *I don't see the point in people shitfitting over it. *


I heard rejection is super fun time
Although over and over it leads to
learned helplessness to
depression

or so ive heard



> *Also, not everyone is potentially attracted to just anyone else.If someone isn't attracted to you in return, then they simply aren't for you.* Next.


thats just it they ARE attracted but "something" isnt there
so exactly like you said they say Next!
most women have so many options they can deny anyone they want till they just settle
loving someone is loving their flaws
Perfect imperfection






> No woman is required to give anyone a chance simply because he has a hard-on for her.


WHAT?! are you assuming that guys just want to bang every girl they find attractive?
Its safe to say that most guys who complain about the friendzone are guys who dont have the sole intention of wanting to boink the girl...




> Its like some guys assume that simply because they find a girl attractive, that shes required to at least consider it.


No
But if the girl likes everything about the guy
Yes




> Can't women be more than just sex?


I am highly offended that you think that men think women purely are penis receptacles
If i like a girl i _like _ her not i just wanna fuck your brains out and leave
If the sex comes great not going to complain
not what im after though


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Promethea said:


> No woman is required to give anyone a chance simply because he has a hard-on for her. Its like some guys assume that simply because they find a girl attractive, that shes required to at least consider it. That is dehumanizing to women. No woman owes any man anything. And if a female wants to be friends with a male -- well thats great, he just made a new friend, not a non-girlfriend/fuckbuddy. Can't women be more than just sex?
> (I realize this member is gone. This is a statement and question for those who also think this way.)


I agree with your post alot and like it, however I do want to point out this paragraph as being slightly "prejudice" to the point that, just because a male is attracted to a female it's not because he has a "hard-on" for her. Remember attraction is as you said, not set in stone.

Can't women be more than just sex?

Absolutely! But can't men like women for more than just sex without everyone thinking he only likes women for just sex?


When everything is open and honest, I understand the idea of the so-called "friend zone". It's when things aren't so honest that it doesn't make sense. For my example is when I express to a friend I like her as more than a friend, and she responds with similar feelings but isn't sure about taking the step (doesn't want to ruin the friendship if we break up), still wants to talk, or sends a mixed message about it, it gets confusing. Clear, cut response as "I don't like you in that way" is perfectly fine with me, I understand that just because I said it doesn't mean an attempt is required. The worst part of it is the part where they say they "still want to be able to talk" but later down the road the talking stops. If they were worried about breaking up the friendship and still wanted to talk, then why did the talking stop anyways? Doesn't make sense.

After a few years of not talking or the only person trying to talk in the friendship is you, you kind of feel like it's not a good friendship anymore and move on. So the friendship died anyways.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

To be cynical, I will say that most of the marriages which are entirely based on love/sexual attraction end in divorce. You have to think through these things logically in terms of long-term relationships [and I don't mean, oh we've been dating for five years but actually raising a family]. Obviously, there should be some level of attraction but physical attraction shouldn't be the only thing involved in deciding who to ultimately make your life partner [if that's what you desire]. If you're just looking to fuck around, then sure go with emotions but don't get too disappointed if the jackass you decided to fuck throws you out after one of you (probably the jackass) realizes that you two aren't actually compatible in most respects.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

Also I've been wanting to do this for a while but whenever I see this thread pop up, I think of this..


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

PeteTheZombie said:


> You love being treated like dirt?
> Pretty sure you have to like the person as a whole to love them
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, really.. then why isn't a warm and caring friendship enough?


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## MiriMiriAru (May 1, 2011)

Hokahey said:


> I agree with your post alot and like it, however I do want to point out this paragraph as being slightly "prejudice" to the point that, just because a male is attracted to a female it's not because he has a "hard-on" for her. Remember attraction is as you said, not set in stone.
> 
> Can't women be more than just sex?


 Obviously, they can and are.

But even if we extend this to cover all kinds of attraction, @_Promethea_'s point is still sound. No woman owes a man anything simply because he is attracted to her in some way (or for any other reason, unless it's money for goods, or services rendered). If a guy finds a woman attractive, wonderful, good for him, but unless the feeling is reciprocated, tough: she is in absolutely no way obligated to "give him in a chance".


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

fourtines said:


> You're so sexist it makes my head hurt. I avoid married men like the plague, and get pissed off when I find that guys who have been flirting with me have girlfriends.


its not my intention to be sexist sorry
and the article is sort of a proof of concept may or may not be true but it cannot merely be dismissed as illegitimate 



> And no, the rest of your babbling doesn't make sense to me. You're only 21, I'm not sure how you've even had TIME to have 100 "close friends."
> 
> Close friends are people who you spend a lot of time with and have deep intimacy with. This doesn't happen with 100 people in 20 years, even if you're an extrovert.


Whoa you didnt realize that was exaggeration
I said that to express how absurd it is trying to be good friends with everyone you had interest in



> I don't know, I don't know why these girls aren't dating you, but you're saying you seek out mutual attraction but get friend zoned, which is a contradiction in terms.


Mutual was probably the wrong word to use there admittedly




> Now, if you got "friend zoned" by a girl who actually EXPRESSED ATTRACTION (i.e. through flirting, giving physical compliments, even sexy talk) then I understand your frustration. But if these girls don't express attraction, how are you so sure that they're attracted to you?


This happens frequently it was actually what made me give up



> What are you not telling me?
> 
> Or is this all in your head?


i told you
"dont ask dont tell"
nevermind i didnt
but now i did



> How do these friendships develop, and how much time do you spend with these women?


Cant say exactly since its been so long since i last tried
But more than enough time thats for sure


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

PeteTheZombie said:


> its not my intention to be sexist sorry
> and the article is sort of a proof of concept may or may not be true but it cannot merely be dismissed as illegitimate


Sure some woman want men they "can't have" (i.e. men in relationships) and some men only want to have sex with women they don't respect because they have a madonna/whore complex...sure these people exist, but we cannot say all men or all women are like this.





> Whoa you didnt realize that was exaggeration
> I said that to express how absurd it is trying to be good friends with everyone you had interest in


People you have interest in aren't good friends. I mean, you're either close friends with someone, or you're acquainted with someone you're getting to know because you want to date them, which can look like a shallow friendship, but that's not the same thing as "wow we have such a great friendship, I fell in love because we were such good friends."

I believe @_OrangeAppled_ was trying to make this distinction for you, the difference between a suitor and a friend.




> Mutual was probably the wrong word to use there admittedly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, well all of this is incredibly vague, so I can't be of further help.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

I guess I just think they either want you or they don't. If a man and woman really wanted eachother, they'd make it happen. With mutual interest, real interest, it doesn't matter, unless there's life circumstances like work or distance. All those words, friend zone, I love you but, I'm not ready for a relationship, I am attracted to you but because of X Y Z I can't, it generally amounts to, I don't want you in different words, because that's a hard thing to say to somebody.


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Sure some woman want men they "can't have" (i.e. men in relationships) and some men only want to have sex with women they don't respect because they have a madonna/whore complex...sure these people exist, but we cannot say all men or all women are like this.


Nobody ever said all 
im saying its probably seen more frequently in women than men



> People you have interest in aren't good friends. I mean, you're either close friends with someone, or *you're acquainted with someone you're getting to know because you want to date them, which can look like a shallow friendship*, but that's not the same thing as "wow we have such a great friendship, I fell in love because we were such good friends."


Seems like orangeappled put it better about being a suitor but this seems true 




> I believe orangeappled was trying to make this distinction for you, the difference between a suitor and a friend.


Skimmed her post and made that distinction but was focusing my attention


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## MissingLinc (Jan 20, 2012)

Maybe it's a youth thing, I find as I get older it's easier to be friends with women I might have been attracted to at one point. I accept the fact that they aren't interested romantically, but if they're fine with being friends, I'm fine with it too. No sense burning bridges if we can be mature about it.

I do find that I have to set boundaries though, like the concept of cuddle buddies, or generally the kind of intimacy that should normally be reserved only for someone you're romantically interested with, and it is disconcerting to see women exhibit just a little TOO much affection in this regard. If we're just friends, then thou shalt not snuggle with me.  

Good rule of thumb, treat the lady friends the way you treat your guy friends, because I'm gonna guess if I dared to call any of my guy friends a cuddle buddy I'd be limping home with a broken nose. :-D


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

PeteTheZombie said:


> Nobody ever said all
> im saying its probably seen more frequently in women than men
> 
> Seems like orangeappled put it better about being a suitor but this seems true


Well @_OrangeAppled_ put it more nicely, I'm sure, but apparently it didn't get through to you until I spelled it out in detail. 




> Skimmed her post and made that distinction but was focusing my attention


I doubted this because you kept arguing with me about your 100 friends.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

adverseaffects said:


> It doesn't and cool.
> 
> I feel like I should give you a better reply but I am not really sure where to go with it since I basically said, "I don't think one should draw conclusions on the complex scope of human romantic interactions since there are so many variables" and then you just threw in another variable.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a more detailed post. I agree it might have a better chance if the intention was clear at the beginning if the intention is present. 

The more and more I visit this thread the worse and worse I understand people/women. Fail at accomplishing understanding. 



MissingLinc said:


> because I'm gonna guess if I dared to call any of my guy friends a cuddle buddy I'd be limping home with a broken nose. :-D


Might be limping home for another reason, never know.  lol


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

@Hokahey
I think that may be influenced by the fact all women are different.


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Well @_OrangeAppled_ put it more nicely, I'm sure, but apparently it didn't get through to you until I spelled it out in detail.
> 
> 
> I doubted this because you kept arguing with me about your 100 friends.


i did not realize you misunderstood what i was saying

fact of the matter is attraction is subjective and i want rationalization
which i said earlier
im just going to have to put up with this irrational bs :mellow:


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Hokahey said:


> Love is a mutual risk/benefit. Why does the initiation of it lie with one gender?
> 
> Also not all guys fall for a friend "right from the get-go" or even have the intention to have a romantic interest at the beginning.


It doesn't lie with one gender, but if you are attracted to someone, then you cannot know if they return the interest if someone doesn't initiate. Waiting for the other person to make the move is assuming they return the feeling; sometimes, the idea may not have even occurred to them even.

If you've been friends with someone and you develop feelings for them over time, then if you expect any return from them you have to notify them first. It's unfair to complain that the person is not noticing you & your uncommunicated feelings when previously you've been a friend who has been seeking nothing more. It's unfair to complain, "Why is she considering this guy & not me?" when you have not put yourself forward as someone to date. If you want more, then you need to speak up or be content to just stay friends. The same goes for a woman if she wants to take a friendship to the next level; pining away in silence is not going to lead the way to a relationship. The other person cannot read your mind and know when your feelings have grown from friendship to romance.

This really just boils down to: honest communication.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> It doesn't lie with one gender, but if you are attracted to someone, then you cannot know if they return the interest if someone doesn't initiate. Waiting for the other person to make the move is assuming they return the feeling; sometimes, the idea may not have even occurred to them even.


Yes, I agree about when a feeling becomes aware to you, make a move. I kind of feel this is when I risk my dice (even if it's someone I've been a friend with, which is likely the case) the most.

I'm just more against the social expectation it's a "guy's place to ask", I see it said quite often and I usually go into defensive mode towards the notion really. I apologize, I feel like a police officer. I do absolutely agree with good honest communication (I've always stood by this). 



> If you've been friends with someone and you develop feelings for them over time, then if you expect any return from them you have to notify them first. It's unfair to complain that the person is not noticing you & your uncommunicated feelings when previously you've been a friend who has been seeking nothing more. It's unfair to complain, "Why is she considering this guy & not me?" when you have not put yourself forward as someone to date. If you want more, then you need to speak up or be content to just stay friends. The same goes for a woman if she wants to take a friendship to the next level; pining away in silence is not going to lead the way to a relationship. The other person cannot read your mind and know when your feelings have grown from friendship to romance.
> 
> This really just boils down to: honest communication.


I fully agree.


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## vt1099ace (Jun 8, 2009)

Didn't recent studies show that a woman will decide within 30 seconds of meeting a if she'll have sex with him or not?...then it sounds like that means the "freind zone" lasts less than a minute then your either moved into the next catagory or may as well bow out and stop wasting your time.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

vt1099ace said:


> Didn't recent studies show that a woman will decide within 30 seconds of meeting a if she'll have sex with him or not?...then it sounds like that means the "freind zone" lasts less than a minute then your either moved into the next catagory or may as well bow out and stop wasting your time.


It's called word of mouth that everyone just assumes an actual study was done and is authentic so they bring up the "study" as evidence. Then it breaks down to it being logically flawed since we are all individuals.

Also, why does sex keep coming up as a main "agenda" that men must be after?

It's also a "study" that is saying woman are always figuring out who they would have sex with in the first 30 seconds of meeting anyone. I highly doubt this. Unless it's implying sex is always on every woman's mind? It's a ridiculous "study".


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Hokahey said:


> Also, why does sex keep coming up as a main "agenda" that men must be after?


Have you ever seen Collateral with Tom Cruise?

_"I didn't kill him. The bullets and the fall killed him."_

Nobody wants to be the bad guy.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Have you ever seen Collateral with Tom Cruise?
> 
> _"I didn't kill him. The bullets and the fall killed him."_
> 
> Nobody wants to be the bad guy.


No I haven't, and I don't understand your response. What do you mean by no one wants to be the "bad guy"?


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Hokahey said:


> No I haven't, and I don't understand your response. What do you mean by no one wants to be the "bad guy"?


It was a joke, but the point remains the same.

If a woman makes blanket statements about the guy's motivations (true or not--irrelevant), then she gets off the hook from labels such as "shallow" or "picky."

Oh, and many times women feel bad for having to reject men, so it's a tactic to assuage personal guilt.
We call this a rationalization for short.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> All right, figure I'll open this thread with an opinion.
> 
> Well, I've had 2 female friends become attracted to me after a protracted platonic friendship. So, that leads me to believe that. . .
> 
> ...


I think that when a woman first meets you, you are like a piece of clay to them. There are two basic shapes that you can take on to a woman and you usually take on one shape or another within a short period of time. The first shape would be round. Round would be like the friend zone. The next shape would be square, and square would be like a potential lover. The more you are around her and the more you know her, the more your shape is reinforced. A woman (from my experience) tends to want to put you in a black or white category of friend or potential lover. They do not want a grey area from what I have seen.


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## Digger Blue (Dec 1, 2010)

I have friends whom I work with on various projects outside of work. I don't dare have sex with them because it would cause difficulties in relationships and screw up the activities we work on together (think political, community building actions). Our relationships are built on trust and respect. Oh yeah, they stand the test of time. 
Digger Blue


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

I went in back into this thread today and noticed it had doubled in length :dry:

In catching up, I saw @OrangeAppled had commented to the effect that mutually attracted, compatible friends getting together is a good idea. Uh, yeah, in theory. That highlights issues that probably haven't been raised in the thread. First of all, no one can be sure a relationship won't end badly. Also, if people have few friends or a fragile social network, friends becoming more can be destructive in the long run. I haven't been through that myself and I'm not a circle-of-friends kind of person, but I had a big problem just with a failed friendship within a social group. Although probably most "friend zoning" is due to lack of physical attraction, some people (mostly women, I expect, given their "frenemies" stereotype) are aware of possible negative far-reaching consequences of dating their friends when the opportunity is there.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

So much bullshit I don't know where to start. Why is there so much generalization of entire genders going on in here? What the hell kind of person thinks these claims have any basis in reality? Why do we only focus on a particular pattern when there is more than one pattern and more than one reason for each?

If someone doesn't like you they don't like you. You can push for more all you want but you will only alienate them and turn them off.

Likewise don't assume that just because you've been friends for awhile that's all you can ever be. Be honest, upfront, and show tact about your feelings. This applies to every person equally. Be who you are and don't try to arrange an attraction on their part. Sorry that's not real, you are not being real to yourself or the LI.

Accept what they say as fact, do not delude yourself. No means no.

If you can no longer be their friend say so and make sure they understand why. Cut off communication entirely. Do not try to become their bitch to weasel your way in there. Not going to happen.

Stop fantasizing. This may seem harsh but it's like tough love. You have to be mean to yourself to be kind in the long run.

Do not treat them as if they were your SO. Do not expect them to act as you wish they would act.

I speak from experience. I'm still working on getting over some super strong limerance and I know the kind of strength it takes to follow this advice. It's harder than hell, especially because it seems so unnatural to avoid the one you love. The pain will be immense but if you really cared about them it's the best option overall. Stay strong and don't give in to the temptation. Being on call for them 24/7 and doing whatever they want just to please them is selfish. I know that seems counter-intuitive but it's the truth. You suffer because you want to be theirs but they have already made it clear. If they haven't (some people find this hard to do) try to get them to talk to you about it. Make sure to not make demands but be open to their opinion of you. Start the conversation calmly. End it gracefully.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

They are only in my friend zone if I don't find them attractive, and probably the same goes for me with other men. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's just how life goes.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> I went in back into this thread today and noticed it had doubled in length :dry:
> 
> In catching up, I saw @OrangeAppled had commented to the effect that mutually attracted, compatible friends getting together is a good idea. Uh, yeah, in theory. That highlights issues that probably haven't been raised in the thread. *First of all, no one can be sure a relationship won't end badly. Also, if people have few friends or a fragile social network, friends becoming more can be destructive in the long run.* I haven't been through that myself and I'm not a circle-of-friends kind of person, but I had a big problem just with a failed friendship within a social group. Although probably most "friend zoning" is due to lack of physical attraction, some people (mostly women, I expect, given their "frenemies" stereotype) are aware of possible negative far-reaching consequences of dating their friends when the opportunity is there.



This has been touched on, albeit indirectly. Sure, it can end badly, but the risks are not as high as the payoff, IMO. If the risks are too high, then you could say the attraction is not strong _enough_. In that case, I would file it under "not really attracted to the friend", but just as a flirtation to entertain you. 

NOT dating when there is mutual attraction can erode the friendship also. Relationships, friendships, & social circles are not static. You cannot preserve them in an eternal state, and to try to hold them back from evolving can do harm as well. In terms of mutual attraction of a friend that is not acted on - that often ends worse than if they date. Jealousy & other strife rears its head, and the pretense of just being friends wears thin until someone says, "I can't do this any more" and they leave the friendship anyway, but not until some negative drama that affects the shared social circle has occurred. Or they grow apart naturally, both the friend & the social circle, and so trying to maintain them as-is was futile, but you've missed a great opportunity trying to.

I don't doubt people use this reasoning, but as I said in my first post, I don't understand it, and I don't think it makes sense in general. I wouldn't make any hard & fast rule that you should always go for it, but I think in most cases it makes more sense to do it than not. I think it's more of an excuse when you don't, because the attraction really is not mutual or not really more than a passing flirtation.


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## Killbain (Jan 5, 2012)

I always think this goes a long way to explaining the friend zone idea:-

The Ladder Theory


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## Cheveyo (Nov 19, 2010)

The friend zone exists because people are too scared to hurt another person's feelings. So they stay friends, without realizing it will be complete torture for the other person.




Promethea said:


> Oh, really.. then why isn't a warm and caring friendship enough?


Because the "Friendzone" is never a warm and caring friendship.
One side is being used for emotional support while not giving anything to that person in return. I'm not talking about having to fork up sex for emotional support. I mean being there as well.

Most of the time, when a woman places a man in the friendzone, she uses him. It's almost always a one sided friendship, where the male gives everything, and the female just takes. And like that gif earlier, she not only takes, she uses that man as a comparison for all other guys. If he's good enough to use as a template for the perfect guy, why the fuck aren't you dating him?
"Well, maybe she's just not attracted to him."
Maybe she should wake the fuck up and realize that sexual attraction isn't everything and perhaps the reason she's been in nothing but failed relationships is because they were based purely on the sexual. The fact of the matter is, is that she IS attracted to him. Just not enough to fit in to her fantasy.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

OrangeAppled said:


> This has been touched on, albeit indirectly. Sure, it can end badly, but the risks are not as high as the payoff, IMO. If the risks are too high, then you could say the attraction is not strong _enough_. In that case, I would file it under "not really attracted to the friend", but just as a flirtation to entertain you.
> 
> NOT dating when there is mutual attraction can erode the friendship also. Relationships, friendships, & social circles are not static. You cannot preserve them in an eternal state, and to try to hold them back from evolving can do harm as well. In terms of mutual attraction of a friend that is not acted on - that often ends worse than if they date. Jealousy & other strife rears its head, and the pretense of just being friends wears thin until someone says, "I can't do this any more" and they leave the friendship anyway, but not until some negative drama that affects the shared social circle has occurred. Or they grow apart naturally, both the friend & the social circle, and so trying to maintain them as-is was futile, but you've missed a great opportunity trying to.
> 
> I don't doubt people use this reasoning, but as I said in my first post, I don't understand it, and I don't think it makes sense in general. I wouldn't make any hard & fast rule that you should always go for it, but I think in most cases it makes more sense to do it than not. I think it's more of an excuse when you don't, because the attraction really is not mutual or not really more than a passing flirtation.


I don't disagree with the interesting perspective that an unacted-upon mutual attraction can damage a friendship. The other points might be valid. The thing is, It seems you're looking at it from a narrow perspective. Many people aren't picky re relationships and get enough of their needs met from friends and family. (Many people also aren't good at knowing what they need in relationships, which might be different from their friendship needs.) I would say those characteristics tend to cluster, perhaps such that the happy social butterfly (she of the "5 best friends") therefore isn't much motivated to date other than from sexual attraction (stereotypical reason for "friend-zoning," often by a popular, attractive female to a less attractive, less popular male). And why bet grandma's farm (the social circle) when the stranger's farm is an alternative?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> I don't disagree with the interesting perspective that an unacted-upon mutual attraction can damage a friendship. The other points might be valid. The thing is, It seems you're looking at it from a narrow perspective. Many people aren't picky re relationships and get enough of their needs met from friends and family. (Many people also aren't good at knowing what they need in relationships, which might be different from their friendship needs.) I would say those characteristics tend to cluster, perhaps such that the happy social butterfly (she of the "5 best friends") therefore isn't much motivated to date other than from sexual attraction (stereotypical reason for "friend-zoning," often by a popular, attractive female to a less attractive, less popular male). And why bet grandma's farm (the social circle) when the stranger's farm is an alternative?


You're saying that this kind of woman has such plentiful suitors that she doesn't see any reason to dip into her existing social circle & cause a possible stir?

I'm saying that attraction is not that strategic. If the attraction is ENOUGH, then I think most women would take the opportunity if presented to them. Maybe I give my gender more credit than I should, and I know I can't speak for most women, but I do get to hear other women speak in a possibly more forthright manner when it's just us girls. I can't see any of these women I know rejecting someone based on such reasoning; rather, she would genuinely feel it and express it as a matter of not being attracted enough to the man.

If she is popular & generally regarded as physically attractive, then an awkward, less physically attractive male simply may not be enough for her. In fact, this rather shallow creature you seem intent to describe is likely less concerned about mental/emotional connection as finding a guy who is a social idea of desirable, or rather, that is what inspires a connection for her. I don't doubt these people exist, but I hesitate to invalidate their way as somehow less lesser than the kind of connection an INFP might prefer.

Consider this Fe description from Jung, which I'm referring to here to illustrate the "typical" woman, not mean to belittle actual Fe types:



Jung on the Fe type said:


> Her feelings correspond with objective situations and general values. Nowhere is this more clearly revealed than in the so-called 'love-choice'; the 'suitable' man is loved, not another one; he is suitable not so much because he fully accords with the fundamental character of the woman - as a rule she is quite uninformed about this - but because he meticulously corresponds in standing, age, capacity, height, and family respectability with every reasonable requirement. Such a formulation might, of course, be easily rejected as ironical or depreciatory, were I not fully convinced that the love-feeling of this type of woman completely corresponds with her choice. It is genuine, and not merely intelligently manufactured.


I also have to refer you to @_fourtines_ idea of people not mixing emotional intimacy with romance due to their fear of intimacy and other emotional issues, and so they seek "mystery" in a romantic interest over a known friend they may even find somewhat attractive... I think this is real and probably another take on your idea of compartmentalizing friends & romance to keep it less messy.


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## Broken (Jan 30, 2012)

Cheveyo said:


> Because the "Friendzone" is never a warm and caring friendship.
> One side is being used for emotional support while not giving anything to that person in return. I'm not talking about having to fork up sex for emotional support. I mean being there as well.
> 
> Most of the time, when a woman places a man in the friendzone, she uses him. It's almost always a one sided friendship, where the male gives everything, and the female just takes. And like that gif earlier, she not only takes, she uses that man as a comparison for all other guys. If he's good enough to use as a template for the perfect guy, why the fuck aren't you dating him?
> ...


I think you've said it best. That's really the stereotypical friendzone. It shouldn't even really be called the friendzone since it's not really a friendship at all. More like a master and servant type relationship. Really not cool. Best thing to do is have some self respect and get out of it. Funny thing is that as soon as a guy leaves that kind of relationship he'll probably find that women will starts calling him, most likely because she'll miss having someone to order around and miss all attenuation he was giving her. 

But what Btmangan was talking about waaaay back at the start was real friendships. And yes a relationship can happen from that type of friendship, if there's enough attraction on both sides. 

I'm sure I'm just repeating what's been said before. 
But in my opinion there isn't any real firendzone, at least not the way most people describe it. It's not something that you "fall into" if your not careful enough. If a women isn't interested in you then she isn't interested in you. If she says she only want's to be friends, then its because she doesn't want to hurt your feeling, not because you didn't play "the game" right and fell into the friendzone. You never had a chance to begin with. That's where that master/servant relationship comes from.

If a women is interested in you than it's up to you to become "more then friends" with her. If you do nothing then you might slip into another type of firendzone, a more mutual and friendly one, but one that you walked into because you didn't have the guts to ask her out or make any type of move that might cause you to become more then friends. It's still not something that you're stuck into forever though. 

Then of course there's a platonic friendship, like what Btmangan talked about at the beginning. That's not even a friendzone, that's just a friendship. Anything could happen then, there's not rules that say a female friend can't develop feelings for you or vise versa.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that guys need to realize that we have more control over being friendzoned then we're told. There are not rules. Trying to figure out what a women thinks of you is impossible, so if you want to be with a women then just go for it don't hesitate, don't wait.
That's my opinion anyway...


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

I think it really depends on the woman to be honest. 
For some women, you have to be friends first before they would consider dating you.
So, a "friendzone" can lead to a happy ending.. :happy:
Not true for all women, but true for some.
I have trouble getting into LTRs with women I wouldn't consider friends

You also have to figure out why the woman is friends with you.
Sure, there are a lot of cases when the woman is just using you as "an emotional tampon" but there are a lot of cases in which she really does value your friendship.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

OrangeAppled said:


> You're saying that this kind of woman has such plentiful suitors that she doesn't see any reason to dip into her existing social circle & cause a possible stir?
> 
> I'm saying that attraction is not that strategic. If the attraction is ENOUGH, then I think most women would take the opportunity if presented to them. Maybe I give my gender more credit than I should, and I know I can't speak for most women, but I do get to hear other women speak in a possibly more forthright manner when it's just us girls. I can't see any of these women I know rejecting someone based on such reasoning; rather, she would genuinely feel it and express it as a matter of not being attracted enough to the man.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, that's definitely a reason in some cases. Although judging by the numbers, many people without such issues also prefer to date outside their friendship circles, as evidenced by online dating.

My example was inflammatory, although I will say that sort of connection is inferior to what most INFPs prefer  But I didn't mean to blame it all on the woman - the 'doofus' guy who gets shot down by a woman of higher value should have known better.

I think most women reject based on gut feelings, but that doesn't mean there aren't sub-conscious reasons to explore.

I'm just frustrated to not understand what's going on, who "friend-zones" and why. One other idea is that, due to not having close connections with (for example) other guys, men overestimate their friendship depth, such that one doesn't mean as much to a woman as he thinks he does. And why don't somewhat attracted good friends become lovers more often? In females hormones after lengthy exposure change in an anti-sexual way? Male friends eventually let their guard down and behave in sexually repulsive ways? This place could use a thread/poll about people actually getting into relationships based on long-standing existing friendships.


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## Psilo (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm always surprised to hear how malicious some people think the "friend zone" is. Can some people be manipulative emotional vampires? Of course, but to imply that women befriend a male to garner emotional support without reciprocating as an inherent trait of the friend zone is absurd. 

First, when two people are on a separate page as far as a relationship goes, it sucks. To have someone you like and consider a friend up and walk out of your life is also painful, as is unrequited lust. To act as if you are the sole victim in this situation is ignoring half of the equation. Losing a close friend because they want to get laid is painful. Having someone act like a friend and leave when they realize that acting as emotional support does not lead to a relationship is painful. Even if it doesn't get that far, being suddenly ignored by someone you were getting along so well with because they discover you are unavailable is painful. Even though it is more complicated than this, it can really make a person feel like nothing more than a vagina that was too difficult to get their penis into. 

Girls tend to be socialized to have an rely upon a close network of friends. Thus, they will go looking for friends for emotional support. Friendzone guy happens to be the friend she goes to. Males are socialized differently, so I would imagine that the situation looks very different from that side (especially coupled with the one sided sexual tension). Still, to imply that the intention is to take without giving is not a truth across the board. As with anyone not a self involved twat (which is another issue entirely) she would be your shoulder to cry on the same with her other friends. 

Of course, my apologies for painting with such a broad brush. I do speak from my experience as someone who befriends more guys than girls, but it is only my experience.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

I think the usual reason a man blows up after finding he's been put in the friend zone is not that he's "getting laid," but that someone who claims to care about him and seems compatible with him in many ways is strongly opposed to ever trying a romantic relationship with him (despite being single). Which is rather insulting to the guy. "I'm superior to you" is not a message of friendship, even more so when the superiority is mostly imaginary.


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## BroNerd (Nov 27, 2010)

wisdom said:


> I think the usual reason a man blows up after finding he's been put in the friend zone is not that he's "getting laid," but that someone who claims to care about him and seems compatible with him in many ways is strongly opposed to ever trying a romantic relationship with him (despite being single). Which is rather insulting to the guy. "I'm superior to you" is not a message of friendship, even more so when the superiority is mostly imaginary.


I see your point but I guess it depends on how you define "trying a romantic relationship". 
Do you mean going on a few dates and seeing if there is any mutual chemistry or actually going through being boyfriend/girlfriend? 
If someone doesn't want to be your girlfriend, no matter how compatible you think you guys are, it won't make for a good relationship.


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

wisdom said:


> I think the usual reason a man blows up after finding he's been put in the friend zone is not that he's "getting laid," but that someone who claims to care about him and seems compatible with him in many ways is strongly opposed to ever trying a romantic relationship with him (despite being single). Which is rather insulting to the guy. "I'm superior to you" is not a message of friendship, even more so when the superiority is mostly imaginary.


A person is allowed to turn ANYONE down for ANY reason.

Yes some times they turn you down for a shitty reason, but if they do that, you don't want them anyway!

Anything else is just asking for entitlement. Yes, criticizing a rejection is entitlement seeking, and is part of what gives anyone the idea that a guy is just in it for sex. The "how dare so and so turn me down, they aren't superior!" attitude is the WRONG attitude.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Oh yeah, that's definitely a reason in some cases. Although judging by the numbers, many people without such issues also prefer to date outside their friendship circles, as evidenced by online dating.
> 
> My example was inflammatory, although I will say that sort of connection is inferior to what most INFPs prefer  But I didn't mean to blame it all on the woman - the 'doofus' guy who gets shot down by a woman of higher value should have known better.
> 
> ...


I think the bolded is quite true. The posts about men who give & give & are used emotionally seem overly dramatic me. What they describe is normal give-&-take for female friends, not any special bonding. And when I say _give_, it applies with male friendships also. These guys who complain are just not getting what they want, which is a girlfriend, not a buddy. I'm sure there are cases of insensitive women stringing men along, but I don't think this is any sort of rule.

I don't think mutually attracted good friends occur as frequently as people imagine. The fact that we discuss the one-sidedness of it so much seems to indicate it's usually not mutual and therein lies the reason it never becomes a romance. 

I do know a fair amount of people who have dated/married someone they were friends with first too, so it does work out for some. Not all were super close friends, but they had a shared social circle and got to know each other as friends first. It seemed to me many meet their SO this way, through mutual friends, not through singles scenes. They just aren't close friends before dating; they usually are casual acquaintances who become romantically involved before the friendship develops further.

As for not dating in your social circle, some don't have much of a social circle. I did the online thing for a bit because I don't have a network of people in my life & found it hard to meet single men who were interested in me. I tend to have one-on-one friendships, not a clique. The male friends I have either are mutually disinterested in me, have incompatible values/goals/whatever, or are in relationships. Most of these are casual friends I see in group settings, not people I talk to or hang out with frequently. 



wisdom said:


> I think the usual reason a man blows up after finding he's been put in the friend zone is not that he's "getting laid," but that someone who claims to care about him and seems compatible with him in many ways is strongly opposed to ever trying a romantic relationship with him (despite being single). Which is rather insulting to the guy. "I'm superior to you" is not a message of friendship, even more so when the superiority is mostly imaginary.


It's not about superiority - it's about romantic incompatibility. It's not saying, "You're not good enough for me", but "You're not quite right for me". The woman does not feel the compatibility the man feels in this case. It doesn't make him a lesser value or mean she perceives herself as worth more.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

OrangeAppled said:


> I think the bolded is quite true. The posts about men who give & give & are used emotionally seem overly dramatic me. What they describe is normal give-&-take for female friends, not any special bonding. And when I say _give_, it applies with male friendships also. These guys who complain are just not getting what they want, which is a girlfriend, not a buddy. I'm sure there are cases of insensitive women stringing men along, but I don't think this is any sort of rule.
> 
> I don't think mutually attracted good friends occur as frequently as people imagine. The fact that we discuss the one-sidedness of it so much seems to indicate it's usually not mutual and therein lies the reason it never becomes a romance.
> 
> ...


Okay, good information there. I'm assuming your anecdotes are about acquaintances who formed their serious relationships in the last decade or so, not ages ago when real-world social circles were the predominant way of meeting people. As for you, I'll say it again, you might as well give online dating another try.




> It's not about superiority - it's about romantic incompatibility. It's not saying, "You're not good enough for me", but "You're not quite right for me". The woman does not feel the compatibility the man feels in this case. It doesn't make him a lesser value or mean she perceives herself as worth more.


Sometimes the woman doesn't see herself as superior, but the man she's rejecting usually will perceive her as feeling that way. It doesn't help that many people today - and I dare say more women than men - are holding out for more than they probably can obtain.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Okay, good information there. I'm assuming your anecdotes are about acquaintances who formed their serious relationships in the last decade or so, not ages ago when real-world social circles were the predominant way of meeting people. As for you, I'll say it again, you might as well give online dating another try.


I won't give it another try. I realized the sensibleness of dating people connected to your social circle. They are connected for a reason; they hold similar beliefs, values, goals, lifestyles, etc. I've just decided to be less of a hermit, so my circle is not so limited. I met my two exes by leaving the house & going to social functions - imagine that!

I also realize how much it makes sense to date a male friend whom you find attractive; I just don't have one of those at the moment.



> Sometimes the woman doesn't see herself as superior, but the man she's rejecting usually will perceive her as feeling that way. It doesn't help that many people today - and I dare say more women than men - are holding out for more than they probably can obtain.


I think it just appears that way from your male perspective. From my female perspective, it seems like men are picky also & would rather be old bachelors than "settle". It's just typical INFP mental/emotional obstacles as well as real social obstacles.


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

OrangeAppled said:


> I won't give it another try. I realized the sensibleness of dating people connected to your social circle. They are connected for a reason; they hold similar beliefs, values, goals, lifestyles, etc. I've just decided to be less of a hermit, so my circle is not so limited. I met my two exes by leaving the house & going to social functions - imagine that!
> 
> I also realize how much it makes sense to date a male friend whom you find attractive; I just don't have one of those at the moment.


OrangeAppled's grand social experiment. Personally I think both methods should be used simultaneously and that particularly INFP-friendly social circles are rare.... (Don't continue that tangent. It's a thread hijack.)



> I think it just appears that way from your male perspective. From my female perspective, it seems like men are picky also & would rather be old bachelors than "settle". It's just typical INFP mental/emotional obstacles as well as real social obstacles.


Er, maybe today's men are becoming picky about who they marry, but I don't think most men are picky re other romantic/sexual relationships. (In other words, it's INFP pickiness projected onto others.) It raises the question in my mind if pickier or less social males are more likely to feel internal pressure to date their friends.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

wisdom said:


> Er, maybe today's men are becoming picky about who they marry, but *I don't think most men are picky re other romantic/sexual relationships.* (In other words, it's INFP pickiness projected onto others.) It raises the question in my mind if pickier or less social males are more likely to feel internal pressure to date their friends.


You realize that for many women, being sexual fling, regarded as non-marriage material only, and/or being a friend-with-benefits (or really, that other more vulgar term) is the equivalent to the "friend zone" in terms of emotional pain involved?


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## wisdom (Dec 31, 2008)

Yes, I suppose so.

What we have here, with seemingly so much friend-zoning or virtual equivalents happening, is a lose-lose situation. "I reserve the right to reject in whatever way I choose" poisons gender relations.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Which is why lesbianism.

I'm only kidding, for the most part.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

MiriMiriAru said:


> I fail to see how this has relevance to the the discussion, out for that matter, to this:
> 
> 
> 
> You brought up"girly-men"and dullards, and put them together, not I. And considering this is essentially a discussion of male-female interaction, it is a discussion related to gender.


It is what it is.
I don't respect these guys.
And women SURE as hell don't.

Figure it out.



> Sometimes, what people need is support. Being told to "toughen up" is not always appropriate.


You won't always get what you "need."



> The inverse of this is also true. I'm not sure, when it happens to men, why it becomes a huge issue, while the inverse (women used by men) is seen as well, crap but normal.


Turn on your television, watch any program geared towards women and get back to me.

Under the circumstances, women prefer to be "used."
As stated earlier: It beats the alternative.


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## vt1099ace (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, I'll tell you all one thing, I've tried to maintain a 'freind zone' with the opposite sex and I can be good with it _(just like any other freinds I can have) _but when a certain _*'too comfortable' *_zone is reached _(usually I'm not aware it's gone that far...)_ and she starts talking to me like she would in the stereo-typical girls share/gossip/talk about BF's, crushes, etc... and they/she don't realise that tipping point was past...that's when I finally realise I'm more than a freind, but still not considered BF material....I've ended up as "one of the girls"...and that's a knife in gut feeling just to make sense of it.

Or, even one time, she told me she felt "more than freinds" toward me and wanted to take the next step even though I didn't feel up to that level yet...it ended up changing the dynamic of the relationship...awkward would be an understatement.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

What does the woman do when she's indifferent to everybody and occasionally some dude follows her around trying to be her friend?


if he wants to put himself out there to be "one of the girls" that's his fucking problem. my indifference is clear and i never pursue friendships with anybody. 

i recently had a guy IRL who acted like he wanted to be "besties" and then i find later he had a crush on me. for one thing, i'm married so i never even considered his stupid ass. secondly, he was saying "i wasted his time"...umm....i wasted HIS time? he fucking just expected me to fall in love and have an affair because he asked me how my day was a few times? 

sorry but some men try to play both sides of the card and it's fucking stupid.

don't make this all women's fault.


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## Curiously (Nov 7, 2011)

I will never know the answer to this. I'm serious.


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## Ista (Feb 5, 2012)

progBOT said:


> I agree that the "friend zone" is a myth. Whether it was made by men with low self-esteem or that people buy into it because it seems like an easy excuse to just give up is something different. I used to buy into this (majorly) until about 2 years ago when a very good female friend of mine started coming on to me.
> 
> I also think that some of the best couples (healthiest relationships) could be formed from being friends first but have yet to test this theory.


Friend Zone isn't a myth, however it will be a myth for some personality types. Sensors are very likely to find this a myth. 

For example: Once had a sensor swear we were just friends for months. All the while he was being really nice to me and doing nice things. I thought it was out of friendship, as we were also best friends - so I thought. He proceeded to deliver an ultimatum from out of nowhere, game on or friendship over. Sensors are more doers. Pun mostly unintended. I found this behavior to be distasteful and disloyal. The bottom line is that some types are incapable of close friendship with the gender of attraction if they are even vaguely attracted to that person.

Some further probable scenarios (in my experience):

The friend zone may reemerge after a relationship for some types. E's will probably find this zone quite challenging, particularly ENF's. It seems impossible to remain friends with an ex who is EF. They seem to find it difficult to delineate the space between emotion and thought. It is possible to remain friends with ENT's, and also INT's. ENT's will probably try for re-ignition at some point with IT's if it seems like a good idea (no matter how much water is under the bridge). It may be likely that types who are identical to each other experience such a weird close friendship that they never truly re-enter an equally proportioned friend zone. Just a theory.

INTJ's make excellent friends, whether there has been a prior relationship or not. They are extremely capable of participating in friend zone in a fully transparent way. They're loyal and lovely and make exceptional friends for INTP's.

It seems that those likely to be capable of friendships are INTx's and ENTx's up to a point.


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## MiriMiriAru (May 1, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> That's how I was raised and all in all I think it's the way to go, for both sexes.
> 
> It's simple pragmatics. There won't always be a safety net and if people don't know how to keep their head up by themselves, they'll crack under the pressure.


That's how I was raised as well, and it left me an emotionally stunted basket case. It's not an inherently bad approach, but it's not appropriate or desirable for everyone.



Duck_of_Death said:


> It is what it is.
> I don't respect these guys.
> And women SURE as hell don't.


I respect them, and I'm a woman. Not sure how you came to that conclusion...



> Turn on your television, watch any program geared towards women and get back to me.
> 
> Under the circumstances, women prefer to be "used."
> As stated earlier: It beats the alternative.


Pardon me? I certainly don't fucking like being used, and I don't think I've met any other women who do either. And the alternative you refer to, I assume, is men being used? How is either preferable to the other?

As for the television, I dont watch it. But I fail to see how mass produced garbage fiction is evidence of anything in reality, regardless.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Then don't agree with it.
> Oh, and replace the word "some" with "most."


I wasn't saying it as though you "needed" to feel the same as me. I understand everyone is different and everyone has different perspectives.



> What in the hell are you babbling on about?


I'm simply saying your "version" of what a "friend-zone" and the people associated with it, is not universal. Again, perspective. "Friend-zone" is almost a stereotype, however it's not totally as there are people who view it very different for different reasons.



> You're right. Far too absolute.
> If you're "lucky", you'll become the contingency plan.
> Remember to play your cards right! Cause ya never know!
> 
> This is where that "self-respect" comes into play...


Well I guess we will just start debunking stereotyping one at a time, please provide evidence that "only" certain women date "certain men". This is my point about your "black and white" attitude, it's too absolute, especially in a world of 7 billion individuals.



> Sincere women do not "manipulate" men and keep them as pets.
> If confusion arises--she has been sending mixed signals to ensnare you (recall the rope analogy).
> Cut and dried.


So everyone "must" know exactly what they want otherwise they are 'ensnaring' someone for malicious purposes? I mean do you even grasp the idea that some people get confused over their own emotions sometimes and it's not meant in any harmful way to another human being?



> The men fucking the woman you want.
> Duh.


Personally, if she's dating more than one man I would steer clear anyways. Also you do know that because a relationship which is "friend-zoned" doesn't automatically means the woman is "fucking" anyone, right? Is everyone just having sex at the drop of a hat? Is this the only way to measure a relationship, based on the success of achieving sex? 

Some people can be "friend-zoned" and both are single (and not sleeping with anyone). Just a thought.



> Great story. You should write a book.


Thanks, I get told this often.

Yes I know you were being sarcastic as my opinion and views don't match yours so sarcasm was inevitable.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

> That's how I was raised as well, and it left me an emotionally stunted basket case. It's not an inherently bad approach, but it's not appropriate or desirable for everyone.


Fair point



MiriMiriAru said:


> As for the television, I dont watch it. But I fail to see how mass produced garbage fiction is evidence of anything in reality, regardless.


For every cogent, self-respecting person out there, there's an idiot who lets themselves get played like a fiddle in situations like those. 

Lets their subconscious insecurities, fantasies, and fears take the wheel and makes themselves easy prey for some narcissist or someone so cynical that they believe there's nothing more to romance than manipulation and use.

I see lots of relationships but very very few rational decisions being made.



MiriMiriAru said:


> I respect them, and I'm a woman. Not sure how you came to that conclusion...


Well I don't. It's a really cowardly way to try to have sex with someone, pretending to be a friend in order to insinuate into someone's life like that. 

It's disingenuous, manipulative, and extremely insecure. 

I mean look at @Khys 's example. . . classic "nice guy" approach.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Hokahey said:


> I wasn't saying it as though you "needed" to feel the same as me. I understand everyone is different and everyone has different perspectives.


Oh, okay.



> I'm simply saying your "version" of what a "friend-zone" and the people associated with it, is not universal. Again, perspective. "Friend-zone" is almost a stereotype, however it's not totally as there are people who view it very different for different reasons.


I never claimed it was universal.
I illustrated that it is the most common.



> Well I guess we will just start debunking stereotyping one at a time, please provide evidence that "only" certain women date "certain men". This is my point about your "black and white" attitude, it's too absolute, especially in a world of 7 billion individuals.


It's what I SEE. With my EYES.
I see what is going on around ME.

I tell these morons to drop it and I'm often met with derision.
By women, nonetheless.

C'mon. Which is it? On one hand women lambaste these losers and relegate them to subhuman status.
And then complain and cry "hurt feelings" when they refuse to pay attention to them or give up the "love."

Here's your cake and fork: Shove it in your mouth and shut up.



> So everyone "must" know exactly what they want otherwise they are 'ensnaring' someone for malicious purposes? I mean do you even grasp the idea that some people get confused over their own emotions sometimes and it's not meant in any harmful way to another human being?


What confusion?
Either you want someone or you don't.

If the other person is "confused" over the issue then they aren't into you, period.
Don't waste your time.



> Personally, if she's dating more than one man I would steer clear anyways. Also you do know that because a relationship which is "friend-zoned" doesn't automatically means the woman is "fucking" anyone, right? Is everyone just having sex at the drop of a hat? Is this the only way to measure a relationship, based on the success of achieving sex?


It's a natural process of a relationship ain't it? 
And damned important might I add.

So yeah.



> Some people can be "friend-zoned" and both are single (and not sleeping with anyone). Just a thought.


Good for them.



> Thanks, I get told this often.
> 
> Yes I know you were being sarcastic as my opinion and views don't match yours so sarcasm was inevitable.


Or maybe you're just boring.
Yawn.


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## Ista (Feb 5, 2012)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I have plenty of female friends. I respect them very much. But many "others" play head games and I play back.
> 
> Unlike them, if something "happens" I don't martyr myself. I take accountability for my part in it. Why can't they?
> 
> At least I'm not a "moral" coward.


Please define ""moral" coward."


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> I illustrated that it is the most common.


Provide evidence please.



> Here's your cake and fork: Shove it in your mouth and shut up.


See the funny part is the fact that you think just because I disagree with you, I'm exactly in the category in which you are talking about. It's kind of arrogant to think obviously since someone is disagreeing with you, they are obviously the ones you are talking about. Do you really think your opinion is that superior? I sure don't. I don't think that everyone disagreeing with me is close-minded, or sexist, or anything really.



> What confusion?
> Either you want someone or you don't.
> 
> If the other person is "confused" over the issue then they aren't into you, period.
> Don't waste your time.


Attraction isn't "cut and dry" and easy to define sometimes. Not with everyone. You may feel that it is, that's fine, but at least acknowledge not everyone is you.



> It's a natural process of a relationship ain't it?
> And damned important might I add.
> 
> So yeah.


Really? Are you taking into account demisexual/asexual people? Doubt it. I think it's a shallow view to believe "all" relationships are structured in the same exact way. I could be wrong, but not all relationships progress in the same way or have the same requirements as others.




> Or maybe you're just boring.
> Yawn.


Could be. lol....

I must be interesting enough to keep getting responses.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Ista said:


> Please define ""moral" coward."


I'm willing to own my shortcomings.


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## Ista (Feb 5, 2012)

It's interesting to note that the fire in this conversation seems to come from (rampant quotes) between S's and F's.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Ista said:


> It's interesting to note that the fire in this conversation seems to come from (rampant quotes) between S's and F's.


We just need marshmallows, chocolate, and graham crackers.


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## vt1099ace (Jun 8, 2009)

Khys said:


> What does the woman do when she's indifferent to everybody and occasionally some dude follows her around trying to be her friend?
> 
> 
> if he wants to put himself out there to be "one of the girls" that's his fucking problem. my indifference is clear and i never pursue friendships with anybody.
> ...


hey I didn't set out to be BF or 'one of the girls' types..it started as just hanging out, just as with any other freind and not even giving it a thought until....the WTF?!?! epipthany.


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## reletative (Dec 17, 2010)

vt1099ace said:


> hey I didn't set out to be BF or 'one of the girls' types..it started as just hanging out, just as with any other freind and not even giving it a thought until....the WTF?!?! epipthany.


so what's your complaint then? you hung out and she got too close to you? and there wasn't sex involved so that wasn't okay?

i'm not attacking here, just trying to understand what your issue with her was. i don't see how she did anything wrong. you made an offer of friendship.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Hokahey said:


> Provide evidence please.


Well, seeing as how it would be a subjective study with each side spewing bullshit at every corner, the survey would be...inaccurate...to say the least.




> See the funny part is the fact that you think just because I disagree with you, I'm exactly in the category in which you are talking about. It's kind of arrogant to think obviously since someone is disagreeing with you, they are obviously the ones you are talking about.


It isn't "kind of" arrogant; it is full-on arrogance.
See? The owning up to your shortcomings thing?

Here it is.



> Do you really think your opinion is that superior?


Yes, I do. And I explain my observations with the minimum amount of words.
V is for victory.



> Attraction isn't "cut and dry" and easy to define sometimes. Not with everyone. You may feel that it is, that's fine, but at least acknowledge not everyone is you.


It is.
Either you're into someone or you aren't.

You can try to make it "work" and to that I say: Good luck.



> Really? Are you taking into account demisexual/asexual people?


They don't count.

The current strategy in modern dating is to fuck the "hawt" guys and connive resources away from the genetic losers.



> I think it's a shallow view to believe "all" relationships are structured in the same exact way. I could be wrong, but not all relationships progress in the same way or have the same requirements as others.


Then I suppose I'm shallow.



> Could be. lol....
> 
> I must be interesting enough to keep getting responses.


...Or maybe I'm just bored.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Ista said:


> Friend Zone isn't a myth, however it will be a myth for some personality types. Sensors are very likely to find this a myth.
> 
> For example: Once had a sensor swear we were just friends for months. All the while he was being really nice to me and doing nice things. I thought it was out of friendship, as we were also best friends - so I thought. He proceeded to deliver an ultimatum from out of nowhere, game on or friendship over. Sensors are more doers. Pun mostly unintended. I found this behavior to be distasteful and disloyal. The bottom line is that some types are incapable of close friendship with the gender of attraction if they are even vaguely attracted to that person.
> 
> ...


You're assigning values to types based upon how large of a sample size? 1 person? And now you're trying to define type trends based upon 1 ISTP and 3 INFJs (of which there is a good deal of disagreement between them) bantering about relationship ethics. 

Rookie mistake. Values are incredibly far from monolithic within types.


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## Hokahey (Oct 8, 2010)

Duck_of_Death said:


> Then I suppose I'm shallow.


Then we have determined something that was assumed 3 or more pages ago.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

Awesome! High five!
My Introverted Thinking is sated.

*leaves*


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