# The age old question: INTJ or INTP? Help a new girl out?



## minavanhelsing (Aug 31, 2010)

Alrighty...so I know it's impossible to "switch" between J and P as the functions are entirely different, but when reading up on the functions, I found myself completely indecisive about those as well. And not being able to pinpoint this is driving me a little nuts. I took a reasonably credible assessment through my school and was judged as an INTJ. But I honestly wasn't sure how to answer some of the questions because my thought process tends to be "Ahhhhh, it _depends_!" And when I tried out some of the supposedly more reputable and well-recommended tests online for clarification, I _always_ landed 50/50 between J and P, on about three different tests. So, I decided that a few human judges wise in the ways of the MBTI were really what I needed. Because I hate being confused. x_x And I've just started all these sentences with conjunctions that make them sentence fragments. Mea culpa.

Here we go! =D

- First off, I'm dead sure about the INTx part. It's actually sort of scary.

- I consider myself a practical person, despite the large amount of time I spend in my own head. If something doesn't have a purpose--a social norm, a product, a fad--it annoys me that people fall for it. I don't respect anything or anyone without evaluating it/them. Sure, I have fun, trivial things in my life, but I've never seen the point of ear-piercing and celebrity-worship ticks me off. Things like that.

- I'm a huge procrastinator. In fact, I'm procrastinating right this minute. I'm always fine with leaving my reports until the last day and I always end up doing any required reading, studying, or problems at three am the morning they're due, because I'd really much rather wander off and read about something that interests me--like psychology or British History--or talk to my best friend. I don't have a problem deciding that I'm going to put work off *as long as* I'm confident that I'm going to get it done by the due date. I'm _willing_ to rise at three in the morning or stay up until two if that's what needs to be done, and I work best under a deadline; I'm more focused and intent. Otherwise I wander off and take forever. However, I become very agitated and upset when I see that the three hours I've set aside (left myself) are not sufficient after all, and I beat myself up with worry when I've failed to complete an obligation.

- I'm fairly laid back about change. Small changes can annoy or unsettle me a little, because I like my world the way it is, but I adapt to them without any big fuss.

- I love lists and indexes and sometimes make them when I should be doing something else. They're so pretty! I also admire order and neatness...but I'm a messy person. My purse and desk and room are a total mess, but I don't care; I know where everything is. (I actually get upset when things are not where I thought I left them.) I've just always got more things to sit quietly and think about than cleaning.

- I've got a very definite future plan, and I can often be caught meditating on and embellishing it. It gives me a sense of security to have a road map, and I can't see myself wandering off blindly without thinking about where I'm going _at all_.

- I get caught up in details and fail to finish projects when I don't have a deadline. For example, when I write, I will spend an hour contemplating the exact word that I want or tweaking a sentence structure that doesn't satisfy me. I'm always very quick to root out and be dissatisfied with the minor imperfections of anything...people's spelling, a work of art, an argument...

- I'm fairly reserved, but I always try to be diplomatic and kind to people. If I find I can't because they're just too maddeningly stupid, I just don't associate with them. This isn't out of any great sense of compassion; it's just because I've thought through the fallout of having enemies and I don't want to deal with it when I have to see the person every day. And I find it much easier to manipulate people when they think I'm 'shy' and 'sweet'. Just kidding? -insert the usual NT babble about despising hysterics and stupidity and being awkward in emotional situations here- I'm not as nice on the internet, where I feel more comfortable.

- I'm a good leader. I don't usually bother with it because I'm lazy, but when I think others are incompetent or I see myself as up to the challenge, I can pursue a leadership position quite effectively.

- I act more patient than I really am. I'm kind of arrogant about certain things and quite self-confident, and feel a bit guilty that I don't feel as guilty as I should.

- I'm tolerant of everything except intolerance and stupidity. Oh, and downright cruelty. Different races, religions, belief systems? However much I may personally disapprove, I haven't got the logical right to go about disapproving. That would just be succumbing to bias and silly emotions.

- I'm an aggressive debater when engaged, and I get annoyed when people take it personally, because it's _not_ personal.

- When I'm interested in a subject, I immediately run out to learn as much as possible about it. I'm also painfully conscious of what I don't know or comprehend.

- I'm a history major. I get A's in science and math, and people seem to think I'm good at them, but I'm just not interested. Except that I feel a great sense of peace when doing a math or logic problem I understand, and I think the unemotional nature of math has a kind of unparalleled beauty. But it would bore me if I had to do it for the rest of my life. xD History is my big passion, and I'm also a stage actress. Kind of weird for an INTJ or INTP, from what I've seen. Otherwise, I'm terrible at and not really into art, sports, etc...

-On a relationship level: My IxFJ mother drives me crazy. She's obsessed with my lack of organization and gets _so_ annoyingly emotional whenever I try to have a simple, logical debate. My ENFP best friend gets along really, really well with me (I act like a complete loon around her), but I can feel distant from her when I sense that I'm more interested in something than she is, or when she gets too emotionally wrapped up in something and I just don't get it. My INFP boyfriend bewilders me with his romanticism and dedication to moral causes.

...Right. So, now that I've scared you all away and gotten you annoyed, I'd like to open the floor up to comment, because it's been driving me insane! I suppose I've proven that I can be overzealous in providing detail to the point where I exhaust other people?

Major internet baked goods to all responders; help a newbie out with some explanations, please? -bows-


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

My judgement is INTJ - it seems you use Te to judge the outside world and Fi to judge your internal world.

If you are in indeed and INTJ one reason that you don't get along with your mother is not even that she is emotional but that if she is an ISFJ or INFJ she is a TiFe user where as you are TeFi user - she will seem illogical to you because she uses Ti which is internal subjective logic where you use Te which is objective logic - you will seem selfish to her because she uses Fe which is objective feeling and you use Fi which is subjective internal feeling. However your sister as ENFP would also use FiTe just like you thus you will find more understanding with her. I find that this mis-alignment can be source of misunderstanding between myself and INTJs and other TeFi users because our judgement functions are simply of different orientation.


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## MyName (Oct 23, 2009)

You sound more like a J. I;m right on the fence on J/P too.


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## minavanhelsing (Aug 31, 2010)

vel said:


> My judgement is INTJ - it seems you use Te to judge the outside world and Fi to judge your internal world.
> 
> If you are in indeed and INTJ one reason that you don't get along with your mother is not even that she is emotional but that if she is an ISFJ or INFJ she is a TiFe user where as you are TeFi user - she will seem illogical to you because she uses Ti which is internal subjective logic where you use Te which is objective logic - you will seem selfish to her because she uses Fe which is objective feeling and you use Fi which is subjective internal feeling. However your sister as ENFP would also use FiTe just like you thus you will find more understanding with her. I find that this mis-alignment can be source of misunderstanding between myself and INTJs and other TeFi users because our judgement functions are simply of different orientation.


Ooooh, thanks very much; this is very enlightening, and it makes loads of sense to me. =D My mom definitely does use "internal subjective logic" when we argue and I just don't get it. I suppose this is why. 

The things that threw me were my procrastination and obsession with minutia when I'm working on an important project. Those aren't unheard of in an INTJ?


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

minavanhelsing said:


> Ooooh, thanks very much; this is very enlightening, and it makes loads of sense to me. =D My mom definitely does use "internal subjective logic" when we argue and I just don't get it. I suppose this is why.
> 
> The things that threw me were my procrastination and obsession with minutia when I'm working on an important project. Those aren't unheard of in an INTJ?


Yeah Ti seems kind of spacey, kind of just out there and removed from reality ... reason why INTPs get called philosophers and INTJs scientists 

Preoccupation with detail might simply be your Ni always trying to realign what you are doing with the bigger picture of things. So it just bugs you more about it. I know in stressed out mode INxJs can become preoccupied with detail for real. Then once you 'de-stress' you end up thinking to yourself "why was I spending all this effort pushing around these insignificant things Z,H,Y, when i should have done the more meaningful thing X".

Procrastination can be a trait of over-developed Ni. It basically just wants to gather more and more and more information, think thoroughly and over-analyze things, and gives you a lot of doubt before acting. All of this may manifest outwardly as procrastination. I think INTPs have more problems with just not feeling motivated to do things in real world because it is as if they run simulations in their minds, derive pleasure from solely that, but see no reason to affect the world, to impart these things. INxJs to the contrary want to bring and share their internal vision with the world and the source of our inactivity is different.


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## minavanhelsing (Aug 31, 2010)

vel said:


> Yeah Ti seems kind of spacey, kind of just out there and removed from reality ... reason why INTPs get called philosophers and INTJs scientists
> 
> Preoccupation with detail might simply be your Ni always trying to realign what you are doing with the bigger picture of things. So it just bugs you more about it. I know in stressed out mode INxJs can become preoccupied with detail for real. Then once you 'de-stress' you end up thinking to yourself "why was I spending all this effort pushing around these insignificant things Z,H,Y, when i should have done the more meaningful thing X".
> 
> Procrastination can be a trait of over-developed Ni. It basically just wants to gather more and more and more information, think thoroughly and over-analyze things, and gives you a lot of doubt before acting. All of this may manifest outwardly as procrastination. I think INTPs have more problems with just not feeling motivated to do things in real world because it is as if they run simulations in their minds, derive pleasure from solely that, but see no reason to affect the world, to impart these things. INxJs to the contrary want to bring and share their internal vision with the world and the source of our inactivity is different.


Hmm...the over-developed Ni _does_ sound a lot like me. I procrastinate on school work because I'm just not interested in it, and I'd rather work on my own projects...but with important things like my own projects, I don't finish because I never think they're good enough and I always want to adjust or re-research or think about something.

My family used to accuse me of being "out-of touch with reality", but I think that was because they didn't see that my thought process is practical, even though I don't write a lot of stuff down, and the reason I don't do some everyday stuff is that I can always think of better things to do. xD


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## vocalist (Jul 21, 2010)

vel said:


> Preoccupation with detail might simply be your Ni always trying to realign what you are doing with the bigger picture of things. So it just bugs you more about it. I know in stressed out mode INxJs can become preoccupied with detail for real. *Then once you 'de-stress' you end up thinking to yourself "why was I spending all this effort pushing around these insignificant things Z,H,Y, when i should have done the more meaningful thing X".*
> 
> Procrastination can be a trait of over-developed Ni. It basically just wants to gather more and more and more information, think thoroughly and over-analyze things, and gives you a lot of doubt before acting. All of this may manifest outwardly as procrastination.


I am surely guilty of this, too. When I'm stressed, I start to doubt my Ni and start using Ne instead, but then afterward I realize it was all pointless, that I should have just listened to what my Ni was telling me in the first place...

Procrastination...trademark of Ni. I get overly confident that "I'll think of _something,_" or "_No need to worry about x and y, it'll all get done eventually, I know it will..." And it usually does, *at the last minute,* but still, probably not really the best way to go about things._


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

minavanhelsing said:


> Hmm...the over-developed Ni _does_ sound a lot like me. I procrastinate on school work because I'm just not interested in it, and I'd rather work on my own projects...but with important things like my own projects, I don't finish because I never think they're good enough and I always want to adjust or re-research or think about something.
> 
> My family used to accuse me of being "out-of touch with reality", but I think that was because they didn't see that my thought process is practical, even though I don't write a lot of stuff down, and the reason I don't do some everyday stuff is that I can always think of better things to do. xD


That sounds quite indicative of someone using Ne to run (or allow their world to be run). Yes the Ni and Ti can be considered look alike types since they both like complexity. However I know that I do not prefer Ni to Ti because I consider things on their principles, Ni types do not. So the question here is simple, even if you're not old enough to have developed your auxiliary function, you should be able to determine your dominant type. However again you're describing things outside of the Self (procrastinate in school due to a lack of interest, not finishing things started, etc.) ITJs do not consider starting things unless they plan to finish and implement them, hence the sometimes confusion in INTJs mistyping as ISTP because they have no interest in an idea unless it's applicable.

One more reason why intuiting types really should get away from trying to understand themselves based on rudimentary dichotomies, and start using functions.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

The "out of touch with reality" can also be attributed to Ni's ability to see beyond the surface, beyond the game so to say, so while other people are busy playing within its confines a Ni-dominant is standing on the side observing or thinking wtf they are doing spending their times in such a useless manner. Other people do not understand this and seeing your mind's detachment blame you for drifting off, being too dreamy/thoughful/serious, not in touch with the daily practical things you have to do, etc.


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

vel said:


> The "out of touch with reality" can also be attributed to Ni's ability to see beyond the surface, beyond the game so to say, so while other people are busy playing within its confines a Ni-dominant is standing on the side observing or thinking wtf they are doing spending their times in such a useless manner. Other people do not understand this and seeing your mind's detachment blame you for drifting off, being too dreamy/thoughful/serious, not in touch with the daily practical things you have to do, etc.


I think you're confusing Ni with Ne. Ni does not see beyond the surface since they are oblivious to the surface.


> Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality….
> 
> Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience ……


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Functianalyst said:


> I think you're confusing Ni with Ne. Ni does not see beyond the surface since they are oblivious to the surface.


Yes but in a person no function is working alone, so yes my Ni is aware of the surface because I do have an inferior sensory function which feeds it information. This is how I know I cannot walk through a wall even though sometimes my Ni-Ti tells me that theoretically it should be possible :tongue:


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

vel said:


> Yes but in a person no function is working alone, so yes my Ni is aware of the surface because I do have an inferior sensory function which feeds it information. This is how I know I cannot walk through a wall even though sometimes my Ni-Ti tells me that theoretically it should be possible :tongue:


Agreed, but you referred to your Ni not the Se, and your originally did not refer to the Ni-Se tandem. I don't think my Ti-Ni would tell me it's possible to walk through a wall because Se would let me know that it's impossible. Ne would have to replace the Se for to give the theory any thought. Since your placement of Ne is much higher than mine, it may take over the Se spot and make such a claim, but my Ne works different and has less influence.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Functianalyst said:


> Agreed, but you referred to your Ni not the Se, and your originally did not refer to the Ni-Se tandem. I don't think my Ti-Ni would tell me it's possible to walk through a wall because Se would let me know that it's impossible. Ne would have to replace the Se for to give the theory any thought. Since your placement of Ne is much higher than mine, it may take over the Se spot and make such a claim, but my Ne works different and has less influence.


I did not mention Se/Si function as I thought we were talking about intuition in context of OP and not having a theoretical discussion on pure essence of any function in particular. Intuition can impart an 'out of touch with reality' quality on a person irrespective of its orientation. I do think this is even more so in introverted case of Ni, as extraverted intuition at least needs interaction with world outside.

Having intuitive function high up the cognitive ladder and sensory function as inferior may lead to perception of the physical world being somehow unreal. Pretty much same as with all inferior functions - the mind becomes perplexed, amazed, when it encounters anything that is related to these, but at time also it can also become denying and expulsive.


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## Vexilla Regis (May 4, 2011)

Well, we certainly have "a lot" in common. I am very NI and either INTJ, or INFJ, but... sometimes I think INTP.
My mother believes I am classical ENTP, because I can stack and encircle my staircase of dictionaries way on up to the stars and moon and back again. Not to mention, I ride a fast roller coaster.


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## Coonsy (Dec 22, 2010)

minavanhelsing said:


> Ooooh, thanks very much; this is very enlightening, and it makes loads of sense to me. =D My mom definitely does use "internal subjective logic" when we argue and I just don't get it. I suppose this is why.
> 
> The things that threw me were my procrastination and obsession with minutia when I'm working on an important project. Those aren't unheard of in an INTJ?





minavanhelsing said:


> Hmm...the over-developed Ni _does_ sound a lot like me. I procrastinate on school work because I'm just not interested in it, and I'd rather work on my own projects...but with important things like my own projects, I don't finish because I never think they're good enough and I always want to adjust or re-research or think about something.
> 
> My family used to accuse me of being "out-of touch with reality", but I think that was because they didn't see that my thought process is practical, even though I don't write a lot of stuff down, and the reason I don't do some everyday stuff is that I can always think of better things to do. xD


Both of these can definitely be found in INTJs - not all of us, but there are plenty of us who have one, some or all of these traits. I can especially relate to procrastinating (for the exact same reasons - there's something FAR more interesting I could be doing) and honing in on and obsessing over the details of something in your pursuit of perfection. 

Personally, I'm also horrible about finishing personal projects that are there to get me going on my "life plan" because of my perfectionism.

<--bit of a frustrated perfectionist.

Overall your description sounds very INTJ.


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## pym50 (Jul 13, 2012)

You sound as if you are talking about me! Your procrastination is only a product of your obsession in analyzing data. We wait until we have all the facts before moving ahead and every movement has a possible outcome. Being accused of being "out of touch with reality" is very untrue. Actually, we are very aware of reality since we are outside of it, observing and analyzing it. You sound like an INTJ to me.


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## bales33 (Aug 8, 2012)

Maybe it's just me, but has an INTP I'd never write that long of a list nor could I explain myself that well without changing everything numerous times... So I'm going to say your an INTJ.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Functianalyst said:


> However I know that I do not prefer Ni to Ti because I consider things on their principles, Ni types do not.


Could you expand on this? The way I determined my own Ni-dominance over Ti is that if I actually consider what it would be like to use Ti without heavy use of Ni beforehand, I find the idea exhausting.

I assume "principles" refer to a part of Ti's internal subjective system?



> Ni does not see beyond the surface since they are oblivious to the surface.


I guess it really depends on how to interpret the term "beyond" ... if it means including and in addition to, then definitely the creation of connections in such an external sense is an Ne thing. If beyond means, abstractly related to, but not really including, then I'd say it makes more sense. That was a good thing you brought up, because there's almost no doubt readers of the thread wouldn't have found that point obvious.


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## bearotter (Aug 10, 2012)

Ah, I just noticed this thread is old. Oh well.


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## Functianalyst (Jul 23, 2009)

bearotter said:


> Could you expand on this? The way I determined my own Ni-dominance over Ti is that if I actually consider what it would be like to use Ti without heavy use of Ni beforehand, I find the idea exhausting.
> 
> I assume "principles" refer to a part of Ti's internal subjective system?
> 
> ...


One example is indicated *here*:


> Ti and Ni are often accompanied by a sense of detachment and disconnection. With both there tends to be comfort with complexity. The difference is that when we are engaging in Ti, we usually have a clear sense of the principles or models something is judged against, whereas with Ni, an impressionistic image forms in the mind.


Principles become stronger in Ti types, the more they gain experience and/or research something that becomes more consisted with a particular model. Unlike Te dominant types, The Ne/Se may find information that differs from a existing principle, then the Ti dominant type is open to changing their mind and developing a new principle. 

Marie Louise von Franz described the Ti dominant types in saying, "The main activity of this type is not so much trying to establish order in outer objects; it is more concerned with ideas. Someone would say that one should not start with facts, but first clarify one's ideas, would belong to the Ti type.... It is first necessary to know what ideas to follow and where they come from; one must clean up muddle-headedness by digging into the background of one's thoughts." 

Ni dominant types would consider the need to measure something from a basic principle or model limiting, since it may conflict with their strong perception how they subjectively view something. I am definitely relating to your latter example. All introverting functions view things in the abstract but where Ti and Fi must gauge something based on principles or values, Ni and Si continue to perceive things from strong impressions they receive, which may or may not coincide with ruling principles.


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