# People like the ideas of NT's, they just don't like them as much in person



## Mcblahflooper94 (Oct 13, 2013)

That's how I feel, oftentimes. Not that many people want to think about things like we do, and they get annoyed by us, call us stupid for asking so many questions (at least INTPs maybe), call us know it all's when we're asked a question and tell the answer, or try to have interesting conversations. It frustrates me. Everyone loves the _idea _of an NT, though, but they can't stand us too much for too long, I feel like. For example:

*INTJ*-With the revival of the story, Sherlock, the modern Sherlock Holmes differs from what he is in most series (INTP, in my opinion) and became an INTJ. Sherlock is one of BBC's most popular shows right now.

*INTP*- A couple characters people enjoy are Donnie Darko, John Nash (the portrayal of him) from _A Beautiful Mind,_ and (some) of the versions of the Doctor from Doctor Who, as well as Gandalf (some consider him INFJ, I see him as INTP).

*ENTP*- Tony Stark from Iron Man is an obvious one. Another that comes to mind is Willy Wonka.

*ENTJ*- Tyler Durden from Fight Club is an ENTJ, I believe.

All these people, everyone likes the idea of, or their personalities on paper, but many people have trouble with us. Like, for example, whenever I talk about things I genuinely find interesting with others that aren't NTs, people get frustrated it seems, or they call me stupid for overthinking everything, or they just get frustrated. I can't understand why. Yet, these are the same people who love to watch and read things all about NTs. Maybe it's just me. I don't know. Can anyone else relate?? Thanks for reading.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't really have problems with NTs for the aforementioned reasons. I have an INTJ friend, and although she is quite brainy and is interesting to talk to at times, my problem with her is that she's so keen on surrounding herself with intellectual stuff/people that she seems a bit snobby and slightly elitist. At least that's how I perceive her. Not to say that NTs are bad people nor am I saying that I dislike my INTJ friend, but it's just one flaw that I noticed.


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## Jetsune Lobos (Apr 23, 2012)

FakeLefty said:


> I don't really have problems with NTs for the aforementioned reasons. I have an INTJ friend, and although she is quite brainy and is interesting to talk to at times, my problem with her is that she's so keen on surrounding herself with intellectual stuff/people that she seems a bit snobby and slightly elitist. At least that's how I perceive her. Not to say that NTs are bad people nor am I saying that I dislike my INTJ friend, but it's just one flaw that I noticed.


Surrounding yourself with people you best relate to is a flaw?


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Zippy BawBaw said:


> Surrounding yourself with people you best relate to is a flaw?


Well I suppose you're right.


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## teekhov (Nov 18, 2012)

I like you guys. A lot. With the NTs I know, I really appreciate the intellectual discussions and weird sense of humour we share. I don't know what it is, but I often feel as if I can relate to you more than some of my NF counterparts.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Anyway, getting back to what the OP was saying, I suppose I can also relate to the non-NTs. Going back to my INTJ friend, her mind is like that of a classic technological intellectual (basically a techie geek) and is more advanced than where my mind is, so it can be hard to have a decent conversation with her. I don't hate her for that, though. Just an observation.


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## Kathy Kane (Dec 3, 2013)

Mcblahflooper94 said:


> That's how I feel, oftentimes. Not that many people want to think about things like we do, and they get annoyed by us, call us stupid for asking so many questions (at least INTPs maybe), call us know it all's when we're asked a question and tell the answer, or try to have interesting conversations. It frustrates me. Everyone loves the _idea _of an NT, though, but they can't stand us too much for too long, I feel like. For example:
> 
> *INTJ*-With the revival of the story, Sherlock, the modern Sherlock Holmes differs from what he is in most series (INTP, in my opinion) and became an INTJ. Sherlock is one of BBC's most popular shows right now.
> 
> ...


I think people take are inquisitive nature as an attack on them personally, or on people they know and care about. We can separate the system, ideal, theory from the person, so it doesn't really effect us the same way it does others. For me, I just want their answers to perfect my theory. I already know they do it, I just want the purpose for the action to clear up any holes I might have in the concept.


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## cheburashka (Jan 4, 2013)

i dunno, nts are really respectable. i have a soft spot for xntjs, seeing as my best friends are entj and intj... and my brother is intp, and i love listening to him more than anyone..... i just. i dunno. i find them all entertaining and intellectual.


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## Mcblahflooper94 (Oct 13, 2013)

Kathy Kane said:


> I think people take are inquisitive nature as an attack on them personally, or on people they know and care about. We can separate the system, ideal, theory from the person, so it doesn't really effect us the same way it does others. For me, I just want their answers to perfect my theory. I already know they do it, I just want the purpose for the action to clear up any holes I might have in the concept.


Not necessarily talking about people, just things in general. Asking "why", seems to be the enemy of so many.


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## killerB (Jan 14, 2010)

Meh. Married to one. I also have three gene packages, two are INTJs. I don't get how people get upset with thinking. Are they not curious? People get annoyed with me also for asking so many questions. 

I hate to stereotype, but I am surrounded by Sensors at work(who only want to deal with the here and now). They wonder why we would even care about things in the future, or what this has to do with that.....you know what I mean. They don't seem interested in talking about anything that does not directly relate to the actual time of now. I get very frustrated and don't talk to them much anymore.

I am INFJ, my youngest(of the three) is ENFJ and we don't have any problem with NTs. We have amazing discussions and I know we are seen as a weird family, but I actually feel kinda sorry for the others who don't think things through and wonder about things......

You need to find other NTs or NFs to hang with. We get you.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Seems more Ni/ne.


Meaning even lower order Ni types like ISFP or ISTP would be attracted to NT's and often are.


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## Mcblahflooper94 (Oct 13, 2013)

killerB said:


> Meh. Married to one. I have three gene packages, two are INTJs. I don't get how people get upset with thinking. Are they not curious? People get annoyed with me also for asking so many questions. I hate to stereotype but it's usually the Sensors who only want to deal with the here and now, they are the majority. They wonder why we would even care about things in the future, or what this has to do with that.....you know what I mean.
> 
> I am INFJ, my youngest(of the three) is ENFJ and we don't have any problem with NTs. We have amazing discussions and I know we are a weird family, (according to others) but I actually feel kinda sorry for the others who don't think things through and wonder about things......
> 
> You need to find other NTs or NFs to hang with. We get you.


My best friend is an ENFP, so that's great. He gets me pretty well, and loves to think about things with me. Another great friend I have is an INFP. But, I do have a group of friends that are pretty much all sensors, and they all become annoyed when I try to ask them questions about things, or I try to talk about things like metaphysics, or philosophy, or number theories, or anything uhh, actually interesting to me. It's very frustrating, and keeps me from becoming good friends with them, because, I just don't get how anyone could be best of friends like that. They're cool and nice, though. Some of them, (most of them) in that group can't be around me too long, or else they get annoyed, because I try to talk about something that interests me, because I get bored of talking about things they like. I actually have grown to dislike some of them. One of them is an ESFJ, or ISFJ, another is an ISTP who is pretty cool, and another, I can't type T vs. F, but they are an ISxP. The ISFJ I can no longer stand. All she talks about is "I have to do this today", or "I did this yesterday". It's sooooooooo boring.

Okay, that's the end of my rant. I've been holding that in for awhile now -_- sorry


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## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

I can relate to these sentiments. However, I mostly believe it's due to the fact that my demeanor is naturally very professional because I have problems learning how to start a conversation (I usually wait for the other person to start). Nevertheless, my friends say that I'm interesting and can sometimes talk too much once they get to know me .


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## snail (Oct 13, 2008)

I admit that I admire plenty of fictional NT characters that I don't have to deal with in real life, and I guarantee that those same characters wouldn't appeal to me so much if I had to talk to them in person. I would quickly grow frustrated with them, not because of any fault they might have, but because I would be incompatible with them and the conversations would turn into conflicts.

Take L, for example. L is my favorite character from the Death Note series, most likely an INTP. I know a real version of that character would despise everything I stand for. We would argue constantly. That doesn't keep me from liking the idea of him. It is possible to admire someone without wanting to be that person's friend. 

I know it must be confusing or even frustrating for lonely NT types who just want to be accepted and taken seriously, but I can't explain it.


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## Mcblahflooper94 (Oct 13, 2013)

snail said:


> I admit that I admire plenty of fictional NT characters that I don't have to deal with in real life, and I guarantee that those same characters wouldn't appeal to me so much if I had to talk to them in person. I would quickly grow frustrated with them, not because of any fault they might have, but because I would be incompatible with them and the conversations would turn into conflicts.
> 
> Take L, for example. L is my favorite character from the Death Note series, most likely an INTP. I know a real version of that character would despise everything I stand for. We would argue constantly. That doesn't keep me from liking the idea of him. It is possible to admire someone without wanting to be that person's friend.
> 
> I know it must be confusing or even frustrating for lonely NT types who just want to be accepted and taken seriously, but I can't explain it.


I appreciate your honesty  It's not really something that's hard to deal with, just choose your friends wisely, which is not a difficult value to adopt, or one that I disagree with, at all. And, as an INTP, being a loner with few friends is not a bad thing at all for me :laughing:


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

Creativity is rejected: Teachers and bosses don’t value out-of-the-box thinking.


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## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

Tea Path said:


> Creativity is rejected: Teachers and bosses don’t value out-of-the-box thinking.


I think there is a certain lack of nuance in this article, I often "go against" creative people, but there are 2 kinds. The creative people who are able to execute their ideas in a good way and the creative people who like the idea but require other people to execute. 

I currently work with a couple of very creative people, their trouble is that the questions:
"Is this feasible" 
"What are the resource costs and the return on investment" 
"Does this add value" 

And a range of other questions never cross their minds. 

The "satisfiers" on the other hand only seem to exist in one type and that's the type that is perfectly happy just going through the motions and doing the same thing on Wednesday as they did Monday, regardless of what happened on Tuesday. The problem with them is that they tend to be the people who most frequently benefit from the Peter Principle, they make very good "day to day operations" people, but often get promoted one step beyond this level into management but are unable to think outside of "day to day operations". 

If I was to make a process model for creativity in the business world it would be something like: 

Big Hairy Idea -> Idea refinement -> Idea quantification -> Idea execution 

In stage one you come up with the idea, in stage two you refine it, draw up limits, create KPIs. In stage three, you evaluate the costs, the return, the risks, come up with concrete SMART goals and a plan for how it is supposed to fit into daily operations. In stage 4 you focus on implementation and execution of the new idea.


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## sinshred (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the problem is not in the NT's ideas, but how NT convey their ideas to others. 
Remember that we are dealing with creatures of emotion, and movie isn't relevant with real life at all.


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## XO Skeleton (Jan 18, 2011)

Tbh, I think it's the other way around. NTs are typically the "nerd" types. Depending on type, I'd argue that most types who get out and about wouldn't want to hang out with an NT. However, once we actually leave the house and engage others in conversation, then they tend to like us. Well, that's my take on it.


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## Chaerephon (Apr 28, 2013)

As ENTJ, if one is not careful, we become pushy and factual validity nazi's. We will also endlessly give you our opinion on how you can solve your life problems instead of relate to your frustration when you describe them to us, it is second nature.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Scelerat said:


> I think there is a certain lack of nuance in this article, I often "go against" creative people, but there are 2 kinds. The creative people who are able to execute their ideas in a good way and the creative people who like the idea but require other people to execute.
> 
> I currently work with a couple of very creative people, their trouble is that the questions:
> "Is this feasible"
> ...


Big Hairy Idea<Customer /Market Qualification - specialist required to execute (get them to work by the job not per hr if you can) = customer feedback = Idea refinement for 2.0 * version. 2.0 = quantifiable available market - expenses. * Rinse lather repeat.

Easier said then done though, I admit.

OP, I relate to what you are saying, in that being nice and doing what I know others seem to want, expect, or like means ZZZZZ for me. You know it's different if you think you can do something that matters but a lot of people enjoy complaining?


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## Kingdom Crusader (Jan 4, 2012)

I just accept that most others are just not going to get me, so I don't bother with talking about my interests with them. It's just a waste of my time. I basically use others for Ne dialogue, so I can later scurry away to be by myself and analyze (Ti) my conversations with them, to learn about all the Temperaments/Types. At some point in my life I will be able to summon all this information for something useful in whatever situation I find myself in.

I don't bother asking people questions 99.99% of the time because I would be better off trying to figure them out for myself. I've found myself doing this because asking questions earlier in life has gotten me no where. I just get people looking at me with donut-glazed eyes.


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## Mcblahflooper94 (Oct 13, 2013)

Asian_Chick said:


> I don't bother asking people questions 99.99% of the time because I would be better off trying to figure them out for myself. I've found myself doing this because asking questions earlier in life has gotten me no where. I just get people looking at me with donut-glazed eyes.


Hmm, are you sure you're not an INTJ? I don't ask questions to solve things, I ask them just to think about them, and listen to what others have to say. And the "better off trying to figure them out by myself" sounds like Ni.


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## XDS (Sep 4, 2013)

@Asian_Chick, it gets a lot better if you can find an INTJ/INTP or two to converse with. Then you can throw ideas at each other and share actual opinions instead of listening to people talk about school/work/other people.

A problem I definitely have and that I suspect other NTs have is that we express thoughts that seem complete to us, but incomplete to non-NTs. For example, I once unable to attend an hour-long presentation on a subject I was interested in, but my NT friend was able to attend it. Because I had already done a little research into the subject and because we both know some Javascript, I was able to understand his summary of the presentation which consisted of three "sentences". If I were a sensor, I don't think I would have understood a word he said.

To clarify, by "sentences", I mean something like:
"Green Apple extends apple extends fruit. Apple defines required function, Green Apple defines beyond specified function. Execute function rate own apple-ness return integer."


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## miss. potato (Jul 10, 2013)

I agree, people really like the idea of NT's but generally don't really like the reality. Which is sad cause I know some really cool NT's. I have found that male NT's seem to have a bit more luck than female NT's though.

I'm realizing the harsh truth more and more everyday, people don't like smart girls.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

miss. potato said:


> I agree, people really like the idea of NT's but generally don't really like the reality. Which is sad cause I know some really cool NT's. I have found that male NT's seem to have a bit more luck than female NT's though.
> 
> I'm realizing the harsh truth more and more everyday, people don't like smart girls.


hugs and commiseration. "Lean In" was eye opening for me.

love the portal quote.


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## Kingdom Crusader (Jan 4, 2012)

Mcblahflooper94 said:


> Hmm, are you sure you're not an INTJ? I don't ask questions to solve things, I ask them just to think about them, and listen to what others have to say. And the "better off trying to figure them out by myself" sounds like Ni.



Yeah, I'm sure I'm not an INTJ, even though I tested INTJ the first time or two around. I don't completely trust those tests; not being late to work, class, and picking my son up from the bus stop doesn't make me one. 

I know I don't have Ni in my functional stack, with it being an intensive and convergent function looking for one or few solutions to problems. I know my intuitive function is extroverted & divergent, which looks outward and is expansive, trying to get the "gist" of everything and trying to put all those "gists" together in an attempt to get an aerial view of things. Ti is definitely at the top of my stack. I try to organize and structure things internally. Plus, I have to start with a given, so that I can start with something to try to come up with something new or different. I can't really just come up with something out of no where. My tertiary Si is developing at this time in my life (right on time) where I start to look at the paths I've tread over my life and the word "practical" is increasingly popping up in my mind, words, and writing. And then I have my awesome inferior Fe that makes me blow up when I'm under extreme stress, kinda like ENTJs do. 

I'm just apathetic about asking questions, especially probing ones, now. After 3 decades of doing that and getting no where with almost everyone around me, I start to feel like I could be channeling my time and effort to other things in my life, especially after knowing about MBTI. I realize I probably don't have much to work with, like others on PerC. So that may be the reason for my attitude.




XDS said:


> @_Asian_Chick_, it gets a lot better if you can find an INTJ/INTP or two to converse with. Then you can throw ideas at each other and share actual opinions instead of listening to people talk about school/work/other people.
> 
> A problem I definitely have and that I suspect other NTs have is that we express thoughts that seem complete to us, but incomplete to non-NTs. For example, I once unable to attend an hour-long presentation on a subject I was interested in, but my NT friend was able to attend it. Because I had already done a little research into the subject and because we both know some Javascript, I was able to understand his summary of the presentation which consisted of three "sentences". If I were a sensor, I don't think I would have understood a word he said.
> 
> ...



I do realize I need to find other intuitives to converse with, especially NTs. But intuitives are very scarce around me. I'm the only N Type among my family, friends I've made, and mates I've been with. The ones I do come across are professors/instructors and counselors at school. And I've only had the chance to meet other NTs at a particular type of job I had last year. 

Now about being able to get away with a summary of something like a presentation, I think I know what you mean. Students around me have gotten pissed off because I didn't really need to study like they did and be able to pass or do really well on exams.


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## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Tea Path said:


> "Lean In" was eye opening for me.


How so? If you don't mind expanding a bit.. 

There has been a lot of discussion about the book/community since it came out and I never quite understood the furor. I haven't actually read the book because what I saw/heard of it just seemed like a lot of common sense to me. Perhaps I'm missing something though.

You've always struck me as being a very astute person, so I'm curious what you took away from it.


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## Tea Path (Sep 5, 2012)

jayde said:


> How so? If you don't mind expanding a bit..
> 
> There has been a lot of discussion about the book/community since it came out and I never quite understood the furor. I haven't actually read the book because what I saw/heard of it just seemed like a lot of common sense to me. Perhaps I'm missing something though.
> 
> You've always struck me as being a very astute person, so I'm curious what you took away from it.


well, thanks. It was eye opening because it showed data behind many of the biases that are explicit and implicit in hiring practices and even in our selves. I truly appreciated the evidence based methodology. I also appreciated her candor in her decision making in face of two children, a spouse, and societal pressures. She modeled how to be a better boss in it.


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## Impavida (Dec 29, 2011)

Tea Path said:


> well, thanks. It was eye opening because it showed data behind many of the biases that are explicit and implicit in hiring practices and even in our selves. I truly appreciated the evidence based methodology. I also appreciated her candor in her decision making in face of two children, a spouse, and societal pressures. She modeled how to be a better boss in it.


Oh, that's interesting. I had assumed it was more of an anecdotal or memoir type book. That sounds like it could be a useful read though. I may have to jump on the bandwagon and find myself a copy. Thanks


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Beloved characters in television, books, or video games, are mutually exclusive to people IRL.

For instance, take the show The Big Bang Theory. Sheldon, I assume, isn't an NT. But most people _love _him in the show, because he adds comic relief, he's being oblivious, or he's 'just being Sheldon'. 

If you met Sheldon IRL? 

I mean, even the _other _characters in the show are happy little dream depictions of actual people. 

If there _were _a Sheldon IRL, he wouldn't have nearly so many friends, likely wouldn't have much accomplishment in his field, and he'd be a pretty lonely, miserable person. 

If he _did _have so-called 'friends', they'd probably be much nastier behind his back, and only hang out with him as a last resort. 

And the reasons people wouldn't want to be around him are obvious-- He's a miserable, selfish person, who only marginally thinks of anyone other than himself, and then only if forced to. 

So, measuring fiction against reality is the first mistake. The second is-- Most NTs really aren't hard-wired to care about socializing and being liked. There may be a very strong deepseated fear of being disliked, and desperation towards having friends, but in the end, they just can't sustain attention on other people's needs and wants long enough to be perceived pleasantly. NTs will mostly be more interested in the mental exercise of it, finding the emotional feel-good to be mostly irrelevant and unnecessary.


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## Hallien (Jan 22, 2014)

Well you can't expect everyone will understand you. I've been misunderstood many times in my life for my ideas, that seemed crazy, or unrealistic to others. You have to accept people and that we all think differently, don't try to explain causes, ideas, or problems to people who are clearly not interested otherwise you will feel rejected. Don't be ashamed of your thoughts, just don't push them to people who are not willing to listen.


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## DustyWind (Dec 18, 2013)

Mcblahflooper94 said:


> That's how I feel, oftentimes. Not that many people want to think about things like we do, and they get annoyed by us, *call us stupid for asking so many questions* (at least INTPs maybe), call us know it all's when we're asked a question and tell the answer, or try to have interesting conversations. It frustrates me. Everyone loves the _idea _of an NT, though, but they can't stand us too much for too long, I feel like.


This always baffled me. How can you be stupid for asking too many questions? We'd still be living in the Stone Age if people were not inquisitive or curious about life. The truth is, most people hate thinking. John Dewey once said: "We think only when confronted with a problem." People in general don't like to be bothered with things that are not in their intermediate surroundings unless it's an urgent situation. NTs have the gift to better the world by looking through all of that.

There is nothing wrong with you for being this way. I have a bunch of NT friends (INTJs, INTPs, and an ENTP) and they're the coolest, most insightful people I have ever had the pleasure of communicating with. They have such an enviable intellect and I am sure that they will do great things in the future thanks to their NT-ness. 

Disregard the others. Find your own niche and keep on thinking.


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## rawrmosher (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm actually the other way round... when I hear the description of an NT I assume you're assholes, but the majority of you are actually really nice :L


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## Caged Within (Aug 9, 2013)

I know NTs. Some are really liked, and some are not. The ones that aren't as popular tend to neglect how people tend to operate in groups, and in most groups, you have to look a certain way, you have to act a certain way, and you have to be a certain way. The NTs that I know, that have trouble with people, are usually folks that like being the way they are, and don't really filter or alter themselves to meet people at their levels. There are, however, other NTs that I know that also have troubles with people, because they're just dicks.

I also have to say that this isn't really an NT thing. A lot of great characters, in fiction, would be hated by most people in real life. People love Batman. Batman is an INFJ. If most people met Batman, they'd hate Batman. People love Wolverine. Wolverine is an ISTP. If most people met Wolverine, they'd hate Wolverine.


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## Empty (Sep 28, 2011)

teekhov said:


> I like you guys. A lot. With the NTs I know, I really appreciate the intellectual discussions and weird sense of humour we share. I don't know what it is, but I often feel as if I can relate to you more than some of my NF counterparts.


While technically an NF, INFJs with highly developed Ti comes off as very NT-ish, especially when interacting with other NTs. Although I can see (from personal experience) how it would be draining for an INFJ to be surrounded by a group of NTs, all talking about an endless spiral of theories.


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## teekhov (Nov 18, 2012)

Emptiness said:


> While technically an NF, INFJs with highly developed Ti comes off as very NT-ish, especially when interacting with other NTs. Although I can see (from personal experience) how it would be draining for an INFJ to be surrounded by a group of NTs, all talking about an endless spiral of theories.


Keep talking, I like it. I ramble about theories all day too, and look for people who don't mind it.


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## Empty (Sep 28, 2011)

From past experience, it does seem though that INFJs prefer to discuss theory with overt or obvious applications to reality. Things of a more relational, social-cultural and pragmatic nature. The INFJs I know enjoy philosophy and more abstract ideas as well, they just tend to find them a waste of time if engaged in TOO much (and thus may feel drained/bored/wasteful).


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## unoriginal (Dec 22, 2013)

Cool beans!


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## isla (Sep 16, 2013)

I think it's mainly the Sensors who don't like us in real life. And since they're something like 70% of the population, it can seem like everyone doesn't like us. 

SJs will feel threatened by what they perceive as our iconoclastic nature. They are made extremely uneasy by a challenge to the status quo. If they allowed themselves to think about something too deeply, it would threaten their whole world view and sense of security. To SJs, the world is primarily how it should be, and the "games" played by NTs are dangerous, counterrevolutionary propaganda at worst, and nitpicky at best. 

SPs want everything to be lighthearted and fun, and analyzing and tearing down ideas would seem boring to many of them. They'd rather be playing guitar, riding a rollercoaster, dancing, or flirting.


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