# ENTP and ENTJ on Motives



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

My ENTP friend and I were discussing how we react to the motives people have when they do something. 

_Our reference example:_ you find one of the windows of your house broken and a stone laying amongst the broken glass. 

My ENTP friend said that to her, it would matter what the person's intention was in throwing the stone. Was it on purpose, or was it an accident? 

I (ENTJ) said that to me it would matter how the person felt when doing it. Did they do it angrily? Did they feel guilty after? 

Almost the same response, yet completely different. I think it might be a Fi (ENTJ) vs Ti (ENTP) thing. Fi is my inner sanctum that no one can ever reach. From the throne of Fi I decide how I feel and do not sway for anything. A good example here would be recieving a Christmas gift that I do not like. This would be a terrible situation for my Fi, because my Fi would push for the authentic, genuine response, whereas the Ni would recognize the need to respond kindly. I would do the inauthentic response, but I would not be happy with it and, most certainly, not do it very well. 

The reason why I say that the ENTP is acting from Ti is because Ti is about precision. It's a grayscale. The details matter. If a Ti user asks you to wash the dishes and you only wash half, the Ti user recognizes that you did do half of the task. As a Te user, I would see the job as not done. Ti would disagree. Two different perspectives. I'm not sure what the influence of the Fe would be in regards to this situation for the ENTP. 

Here, I'm posing two main questions. 1) Whether these observations jive with the cognitive functions. 2) If there's a way to clarify the communication between the ENTP and ENTJ with this split happening. 

For Reference 
ENTJ: Te>Ni>Se>Fi 
ENTP: Ne>Ti>Fe>Si


----------



## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

Asked an ENTJ friend this question, his response "I don't give a shit about their intent in throwing it, or how they felt while throwing it, all I care about is the fact that my window is now broken. So long as they agree to pay for a new one the problem wont escalate."

Obvious Te is obvious.

My own opinion...he does consider motive, but only for the sake of predicting actions. 

Once the action has taken place he performs a very Te analysis, forms a Te conclusion, and either takes a Te action or encourages one on behalf of others.

He seems to consider both intent *and* personal feelings but always for the purpose of foresight, or to figure the likelihood of something occurring again. It's a very Te-Ni approach to figuring motives and he doesn't evaluate through Fi. The Fi is reactionary. He literally frowned and looked annoyed as he mulled over the scenario.

So it seems that upon seeing the broken window his Fi said "I am angry."

From there his Te took over and said "This is how we fix it, oh and this also solves your anger problem in the process."

I don't know if you'll find this helpful or not.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@Octavian

That's... interesting. I get this sense of hostility/intensity from a lot of other ENTJs...


----------



## Octavian (Nov 24, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> @Octavian
> 
> That's... interesting. I get this sense of hostility/intensity from a lot of other ENTJs...


What I've learned is that hostility is not always behind their seemingly aggressive statements and actions. They're just action and resolution oriented.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@Octavian

Hm! I don't _think_ I'm like that, but I guess I could be!


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

Broken window
>How to amend the problem
Who is accountable?
Appeal for compensation
If fail, police report, sue for damages, spread bad rep etc
Intentions are an afterthought for considering a punishment (I consider compensation a duty, not a punishment).


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomas60 said:


> Broken window
> >How to amend the problem
> Who is accountable?
> Appeal for compensation
> ...


Everyone seems to be focusing on the damages part. That's kinda interesting. Maybe a different metaphor would be better.


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

machina sensus said:


> Everyone seems to be focusing on the damages part. That's kinda interesting. Maybe a different metaphor would be better.


Whether malicious or accidental, I don't see my tempermant being different, just the final decision on punishment.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomas60 said:


> Whether malicious or accidental, I don't see my tempermant being different, just the final decision on punishment.


I see. Yes I guess I feel the same way... but I mean, if someone did it on accident, I would feel much more lenient. It's the difference between being very blunt and rude to the person or being patient and understanding.


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

machina sensus said:


> I see. Yes I guess I feel the same way... but I mean, if someone did it on accident, I would feel much more lenient. It's the difference between being very blunt and rude to the person or being patient and understanding.


I understand why you would express yourself differently via tone of language. I don't feel emotional knee-jerk into those tones, it's a very "if this, then that, your move" mentality.


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

machina sensus said:


> @Octavian
> 
> That's... interesting. I get this sense of hostility/intensity from a lot of other ENTJs...


l can relate to the ENTP in your example but am slightly perplexed at at your lack of hostility.


Seriously? l'm not saying l'd annihilate someone on the spot for it,but their feelings certainly wouldn't come into play.

This actually happened to my sliding door once, the landscaping guy ricocheted a rock into it with his leafblowe and it shattered at 7AM.


lt was of an course an accident, and l was sure to find out if it was before knowing if l should totally lose it or not (l didn't lose it, remained pretty calm).

Had it _not_ been an accident but he told me he ''felt'' bad, l would have maniacally cackled in his face and perhaps set him on fire...lol.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@Lady O.W. Bro

Okay, here's a different example. Let's say that my roommate and I need to clean the house. I say "I will clean the bathroom if you take care of the dishes." If my roommate only did half of the dishes, I would be quite pissed, regardless of how she felt about it, however her reasons would come in to play a bit.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomas60 said:


> I understand why you would express yourself differently via tone of language. I don't feel emotional knee-jerk into those tones, it's a very "if this, then that, your move" mentality.


Oh, you're saying that I'm not being emotional, I'm being logical?


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

machina sensus said:


> @Lady O.W. Bro
> 
> Okay, here's a different example. Let's say that my roommate and I need to clean the house. I say "I will clean the bathroom if you take care of the dishes." If my roommate only did half of the dishes, I would be quite pissed, regardless of how she felt about it, however her reasons would come in to play a bit.


So you might be less upset if it was related to something personal? Just trying to gauge a possible Fi/Fe difference. l'm not sure how Ti might come into play.

Truthfully, l don't really get turned off by laziness. l guess l just want to know that someone is willing to function as part of a team if it means getting short-term goals done, but if they said they just ''didn't feel like it'' l wouldn't really count on them.

l see some people get frustrated with an overall lazy attitude and then ignore individual acts of motivation from the person, some Si dominants have regarded me this way. ''Doomed'' to some predestined laziness l don't believe in.


----------



## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

machina sensus said:


> Oh, you're saying that I'm not being emotional, I'm being logical?


I'm saying the logic is consistent with displaying the emotion. You can still be emotional and make sense.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@Lady O.W. Bro

Well, if my roommate gave me this reason "I was just really busy with homework and stuff" I would still be pissed. If my roommate says "I feel horrible that I wasn't able to finish the dishes" I would be slightly less pissed.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomas60 said:


> I'm saying the logic is consistent with displaying the emotion. You can still be emotional and make sense.


Right! Cool.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Thomas60 said:


> I'm saying the logic is consistent with displaying the emotion. You can still be emotional and make sense.


Right! Cool.


----------



## judowrestler1 (Mar 30, 2013)

I'll jump in and say that it would come down to motives for me. If it was an accident and they weren't well off financially I'd even be inclined to say that for something like a window I'd take care of it, accidental shit happens all the time. If it was on purpose then we'd have a whole other issue aside from the broken window. How the person feels afterwards isn't important at all, their motives are.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Intent is everything.... If someone does something UNINTENTIONALLY how can I be angry WITH THEM? If they intentionally lie about doing it or try to avoid responsibility, then I can be angry with them because of that reason. Annoyed, yes. Angry, yes...But at the situation...

My Te would of course try to fix the situation efficiently etc. We all use it to some extent. But from my experience ENTJs make judgement quick and don't take other peoples motifs or views into consideration very often.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

machina sensus said:


> @_Lady O.W. Bro_
> 
> Okay, here's a different example. Let's say that my roommate and I need to clean the house. I say "I will clean the bathroom if you take care of the dishes." If my roommate only did half of the dishes, I would be quite pissed, regardless of how she felt about it, however her reasons would come in to play a bit.


Reasons would make a lot of difference. I could be very pissed as to why she didn't "upgrade" this task to priority.... Unless good reason for it was found of course.


----------



## Tzara (Dec 21, 2013)

I dont really care about the reason, someone broke my window... and left me a rock, 2 things to do now 1)find the guy who threw it and punish him/her 2) find a use for the rock, like break someone elses window or make a paper weight


----------



## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Octavian said:


> Asked an ENTJ friend this question, his response "I don't give a shit about their intent in throwing it, or how they felt while throwing it, all I care about is the fact that my window is now broken. So long as they agree to pay for a new one the problem wont escalate."
> 
> Obvious Te is obvious.
> 
> ...


Your friend seems a lot more like an ESTJ, if I were to type. Usually ENTJs are a lot more introspective with Ni if it's developed and ask a lot of "why" questions


----------



## malphigus (Jan 15, 2014)

1. Intentional?
1.1 - Yes > you either pay and promise that shit won't happen again or I'll mingle with the law. I will never let a case slip.
1.2 - Nope. Hear their story.
1.2.1 - Not believable/complete BS > see 1.1
1.2.2 - Somewhat believable... ok.
1.2.2.1 - Looks poor > Alrighty, just pay up 20% and we're good.
1.2.2.2 - Middle class > 100% and you're good to go.
1.2.2.3 - Snobby arsehat > *inflates the original price to 400%* Get this done with and you won't have to deal with a simpleton like me...

Another story for friends... like close friends.

2. Intentional?
2.1 - Yes > wtf why?
2.1.1 - Just joking around lol happy birthday/april fools... > well fuck you but ok just pay 50%
2.1.1.1 - Low on money > okay then I'l wait until you have money. 
2.2 - No > Okay your story?
2.2.1 - BS > see 2.1.1
2.2.2 - Believable > Ok you're off the hook.. just don't do that again!

3. A kid/kids broke it (someone under 17)
3.1 - Yep telling your parents.

Notice how I don't give jack shit about how their feel... Because I don't want to know how they feel and when you feel you can get away with it I will know that you're a complete arse, and charge you 100% regardless of the circumstances above.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

@machina sensus where is this Fi coming from? I doubt seeing either ENTP or ENTJ taking into account someone's feelings/intention in such a scenario is a fiction. It would be more likely for an ENTP to react accordingly to what is expected by immediate surrounding. As for ENTJ I see only what has been posted already solve/punish scenario no room for any Fi unless bursting anger is consider some.

I doubt you are in fact an ENTJ from what I saw.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

@DarkSideOfLight

With Fi, I'm saying that I evaluate how genuine or "real" people are about things. 

I see no problem with trying to understand someone's motives in order to decide how to punish or solve the issue.

Did you see my dishes example? I think it's helpful.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

machina sensus said:


> @DarkSideOfLight
> 
> With Fi, I'm saying that I evaluate how genuine or "real" people are about things.
> 
> ...


I don't know how old are you but according to this whole mbti theory my Fe supposed be 3rd. In case of ENTJ Fi is the last one.
I can't really say that I'm consciously evaluating situation through feelings and I doubt someone with inferior Fi would go to that length. 

Given we are talking about potentially stressful situation like your window being broken. Pardon dishes. Accessing something so remote, buried deep down human psyche seems to be outside of the equation.

My question is why would you use something draining so much like an inferior function when Te is a perfect solution in this case?

Why someone thinks/feels that hi/she has to use logic/feelings. I say fuck that. Logic is my domain and I don't want to evaluate anything, especially stressful with my weak/weakest tools. 

I say stick to your Te solve/punish set of options and forget about "let's consider motives/feelings/UFO/shit". Simple: action -> reaction -> evaluation of situation -> fallow up. Broken window -> check wtf is going on ->
a) someone is fucking around -> punish
b) accident -> fair recompensation

I don't see any need for inferior Fi. Especially if you are an adult and you can control your anger/impulsiveness.


----------



## Sporadic Aura (Sep 13, 2009)

For the window example, I'd be most angry if they were doing something stupid without caring/noticing what they were doing could break my window. I'd just view it as them disrespecting me and not caring, and I'd be quite angry at them. If someone broke my window out of malice, I'd just be confused. 'Why the fuck would you do that?' I'd think I'd just be utterly perplexed more than angry. If it was an honest mistake, my annoyance would relate to how much effort it would take me to repair the window. I wouldn't hide my annoyance, but I doubt I'd be that annoyed honestly, people fuck up sometimes.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Interestingly, Nardi in his research found that types like ENTJ etc only use a small, but highly effective loop in the brain to come to ANY conclusion. Same loop for all things.... And it probably doesn't include emotional centers. 

Difference to ENxPs was that ENxPs use all areas of the brain simultaneously, out of sync... similar to looking at the situation from several different perspectives (from emotional standpoint, from a logical, cold standpoint, from a holistic standpoint etc). Costs a lot of energy.

Ni-laden users use their brain in mastery-mode often.... All areas in sync but low energy. Above mentioned loop is to make decisions....

I just wonder if this correlates to human behavior in these theorized cases.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

ENTPreneur said:


> Interestingly, Nardi in his research found that types like ENTJ etc only use a small, but highly effective loop in the brain to come to ANY conclusion. Same loop for all things.... And it probably doesn't include emotional centers.
> 
> Difference to ENxPs was that ENxPs use all areas of the brain simultaneously, out of sync... similar to looking at the situation from several different perspectives (from emotional standpoint, from a logical, cold standpoint, from a holistic standpoint etc). Costs a lot of energy.
> 
> ...


Hey, did you have an avatar that was Ironman before? 

Anyway I like these thoughts, do you have a source I can investigate?


----------



## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

ENTPreneur said:


> Interestingly, Nardi in his research found that types like ENTJ etc only use a small, but highly effective loop in the brain to come to ANY conclusion. Same loop for all things.... And it probably doesn't include emotional centers.
> 
> Difference to ENxPs was that ENxPs use all areas of the brain simultaneously, out of sync... similar to looking at the situation from several different perspectives (from emotional standpoint, from a logical, cold standpoint, from a holistic standpoint etc). Costs a lot of energy.
> 
> ...


Te-make up your mind and use it for all applicable situations(find the case that serves in a broad range of situations and get it over with)
Ne-be adaptable about things(look from multiple views to find the best case)

I'm probably selling Te short but that's my initial impression.


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

No Ironman here... Another "trolly" guy was called Entrepenuer or similar. Another one was also similar... But I have been around a long time (5 years) so I think I might have discussed stuff with someone with that avatar....Possibly.






Dario Nardi

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/92291-dario-nardis-neuroscience-personality.html


----------



## ENTPreneur (Dec 13, 2009)

Based on Nardi's experiences, he would classify the strength of each functions as:


*Se: Act quickly and smoothly to handle whatever comes up in the moment.**
Si: Review and practice in order to specialize and meet group needs.
Ne: Perceive and play with patterns of relationships across contexts.
Ni: Draw upon to whole brain to realize an answer to a novel problem.
Te: Manager resources efficiently to quickly decide based on evidence.
Ti: Reason multiple ways to objectively and accurately analyze problems.
Fe: Evaluate and communicate values to enhance social relationships.
Fi: Listen with your whole self to locate and support what's important.*


----------



## bgoodforgoodsake (Feb 5, 2014)

1. Investigate. 
2. If it's an accident I could let it go, but only if they are truly sorry, i.e. feel bad. 
3. Otherwise it's simply a business transaction, I don't care about economic situation of perpetrator (see #2).


----------



## Scelerat (Oct 21, 2012)

To me, this brings up 2 questions:

A) Why did that cunt throw a stone through my window?
B) Where is this cunt so I can return the favor?


----------



## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

machina sensus said:


> Almost the same response, yet completely different. I think it might be a Fi (ENTJ) vs Ti (ENTP) thing. Fi is my inner sanctum that no one can ever reach. From the throne of Fi I decide how I feel and do not sway for anything. A good example here would be recieving a Christmas gift that I do not like. This would be a terrible situation for my Fi, because my Fi would push for the authentic, genuine response, *whereas the Ni would recognize the need to respond kindly*. I would do the inauthentic response, but I would not be happy with it and, most certainly, not do it very well.


Funny that you say that Ni would do that. Ni perceives symbolic/archetypal content, while what you mentioned sounds more like feeling to be honest. Besides I would expect a clearly Te-Ni based reasoning for an ENTJ, specially as Fi is repressed and Fe isn't valued, so those considerations about emotions would be far less relevant than the logic behind breaking a window.

I'm not an ENTJ, but if that happened to me I would try to find the idiot that threw the stone so I can get the money for repairing it, and as well asking why the idiot did that in the first place.


----------



## machina sensus (Jan 16, 2014)

Blue Flare said:


> Funny that you say that Ni would do that. Ni perceives symbolic/archetypal content, while what you mentioned sounds more like feeling to be honest. Besides I would expect a clearly Te-Ni based reasoning for an ENTJ, specially as Fi is repressed and Fe isn't valued, so those considerations about emotions would be far less relevant than the logic behind breaking a window.
> 
> I'm not an ENTJ, but if that happened to me I would try to find the idiot that threw the stone so I can get the money for repairing it, and as well asking why the idiot did that in the first place.


Yeah beginning to think not the best example. I would be pretty pissed too, honestly.


----------



## DarkSideOfLight (Feb 15, 2011)

I have two short conclusions about this whole discussion:
1) Enneagram have greater impact on how an individual act/react
THEN:
2) Je is responsible for execution(Judging external)

In that particular order.

Think in terms reactive, aggressive E8 Te VS compliant, positive E2 Te.

Te is more likely to be E8 of course, but that's besides the point.

EDIT: Look at the title and tell me what MBTI has to do with motives in the first place? Bloody hell I'm getting old and blind haha.


----------

