# Extroverted Thinking - Objective reality offends people



## TemptingFate (Jun 15, 2015)

As an (I)NTJ, in other words a strong extroverted thinker - I find that the biggest problem I have with people is that they are offended by objective reality. A lot of the time I am just stating facts, like a messenger of objective reality. Comments like "the reason you have gained weight is because you have sustained a caloric surplus" - deductive logic that is not questionable, can offend people. Like it's my fault that things are the way they are, I am only reminding them :stomp:

It's like people try to hide from reality with various self-lies and rationalizations, and when I call them on their bullshit they have to face reality which hurts too much so they direct their anger at me. I think this is why NTJ's think people are stupid in general.

Example: We were discussing salaries and a girl said that it's not that important to make a lot of money when you're 30. I said it's always better to make more money than to make less, given the same situation (duh, obvious fact). However this offended her, and it seems like people are offended by the fact that I plan to make a lot of money. 

Not all people are like this though, fortunately. I also think this is one of my personal qualities which repels people the most, that I force everyone to face reality.

Edit: While Te obviously is one of the most useful functions, it's greatest weakness is that it neglects certain aspects of human experience, such as emotion.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

I think what it is is is lack of Fe 

That is you are not concerned with 'what is appropriate' as at times this not true/logical/based on external fact.

Sometimes it's not the 'facts' that are offensive, it can be they way the message is conveyed. That is the tone of voice, the way it is said, the body language, that can be read into and one can draw conclusions about. Perhaps it wasn't what you said, but the way it was said the girl thought you were devaluing her opinion and that's what offended her?

I wasn't there so this is just speculation 


I do see that deflection of anger you speak of. I think a lot of people I bump into in life don't spend the time to self reflect or face their own insecurities. This does annoy me that I have to navigate this landscape and be mindful of others or face their wrath. To me ones own insecurities are ones own responsibility to manage. 

What I have also noticed is how you can state a fact (this is how it is) and someone else can take it as you support this fact (you believe this is right). I've been caught in that one. Oh the fun trying to communicate to them you never stated that you agree with the fact.


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## StunnedFox (Dec 20, 2013)

TemptingFate said:


> Example: We were discussing salaries and a girl said that it's not that important to make a lot of money when you're 30. I said it's always better to make more money than to make less, given the same situation (duh, obvious fact). However this offended her, and it seems like people are offended by the fact that I plan to make a lot of money.


The fact stated here is only obvious in a very limited frame of reference - only when the situation is precisely the same with respect to everything but money, and only in those situations where having more money could be said to be a benefit (so not, e.g., if having money in this situation would make you the target of an imminent attack; it's already not an "always" thing, then) - which has already removed it from the reality you're presenting the comment in, in which having more money essentially requires the situation to be fundamentally different, so what relevance would such a comment have?

To look at your post more broadly: obviously, yes, differences in personality preferences can and do result in miscommunications, one example of which is people taking statements intended to be objective and impersonal personally. But are they _wrong_ to do so? It's probably not a refutation of reality so much as it's a communication issue - different perspectives on reality, leading to different inferences being drawn. Your "problem" is, as far as I can tell from what you've written here, a failure of those on either side of the discussion to appreciate the perspective of the other enough to facilitate meaningful and clear communication - not of people getting angry at being made to face reality (which is not to say some people don't do that).


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## Pavel (Aug 8, 2015)

That's the way you are craving for yourself. People follow many things, which could be comfort, people around, loveable job - they could give pretty much for it.

As I see it, you are trying to cave your path and find someone who will share it and take your ldea. Or make some adjustments to it.

The thing you shoud've ask girl - is she alright with that thought, and what if there will be family and childs, or she would have business that will require of her rotation of big money. Give her possibiitios of future.

Moreover - it's more important why she said this. You could bring her your ideas, but what is important - is what picture she had. Maybe there is something more suitable for her than any of other things. Ask her.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

People getting offended because somebody makes inappropriate or tactless statements and remarks is objective reality. 

:laughing:


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

People are getting offended by themselves, and I'm tired of it, stop getting offended and become a warrior clansmen.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

This sounds like a projection of the inferior more than anything.


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## TemptingFate (Jun 15, 2015)

The reason I made this post was to help me decide whether to implement more tact or just to say f it.


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## surgery (Apr 16, 2010)

To me it sounds like the real question here is, "why isn't everyone a Te-user?" Why did other cognitive functions evolve to be so prevalent if so many of the issues that humans face can be solved with unemotionally and sternly according our actions to "objective facts."


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

Communicating emotion is a certain language that you can speak: it manipulates the emotions of the listener to better communicate your message. If you're not willing to learn to speak it, so be it-- but you will be a more effective communicator if you do. This is what Feelers know how to do naturally, whereas Thinkers have to learn it as a second language. 

As with anything, of course, it can be overdone, and sometimes Thinkers happen to communicate better, because they're not likely to overdo it. But a healthy Feeler type will know how to speak this emotional language without overdoing it.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Neverontime said:


> People getting offended because somebody makes inappropriate or tactless statements and remarks is objective *awesome fun.*


Fixed for you.


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

TemptingFate said:


> The reason I made this post was to help me decide whether to implement more tact or just to say f it.


Just do both.


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## JTHearts (Aug 6, 2013)

There is something called tact. You shouldn't say something offensive if you don't absolutely have to.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

JTHearts said:


> You shouldn't say something offensive if you don't absolutely have to.


Though, to be fair, people quite often need a verbal bitch-slapping.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Hey man, typing as an INTJ is no excuse for anyone to be an insensitive asshole. Don't be surprised if people are offended.


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## JTHearts (Aug 6, 2013)

The_Wanderer said:


> Though, to be fair, people quite often need a verbal bitch-slapping.


Yeah, like you.


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## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

JTHearts said:


> Yeah, like you.


So did you absolutely have to say something offensive here?


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## Despotic Nepotist (Mar 1, 2014)

If my two cents are worth anything here, I don't take things personally unless I feel it is a genuine, untrue insult directed towards me, but even so, I'm not going to try to silence the person and might shrug it off in a little while.


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## stargazing grasshopper (Oct 25, 2013)

TemptingFate said:


> As an (I)NTJ, in other words a strong extroverted thinker - I find that the biggest problem I have with people is that they are offended by objective reality. A lot of the time I am just stating facts, like a messenger of objective reality. Comments like "the reason you have gained weight is because you have sustained a caloric surplus" - deductive logic that is not questionable, can offend people. Like it's my fault that things are the way they are, I am only reminding them :stomp:
> 
> It's like people try to hide from reality with various self-lies and rationalizations, and when I call them on their bullshit they have to face reality which hurts too much so they direct their anger at me. I think this is why NTJ's think people are stupid in general.
> 
> ...


Are you aware that Te is INTJ's auxiliary function, I think it's kinda bizarre that an alleged Ni dom would argue in support of Te?
Te is the dom function of ENTJ & ESTJ, yet nobody of either those types has commented upon this thread.

Why do you assume that Te neglects emotion? I don't care what the stereotypical descriptions of Te doms (ENTJ/ESTJ) implies, we're really not emotional zombies that don't give a damn what others think or feel.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

JTHearts said:


> Yeah, like you.


Hey! Nice effort, guy!


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## giraffegator (Dec 28, 2014)

peyandkeele said:


> Even when i say things like that, its still a tossup on what type of reaction i'll get. Usually because people get so offended they either ignore the fact that i lead with a statement of "not being good at this" or what have you, or they think its just an excuse so i can be "rude". My mom use to tell me and my brother that people dont really care to hear that for the exact reason that they think of it as an excuse to make a hurtful statement. And so far i cant say thats shes wrong, most people i come across do think that way. And ive heard quite a few people echo this feeling as well.


Hm fair enough. I can see that point of view. 
Well, if you've tried your hardest to try to word something tactfully, and you've given the advice in the appropriate setting and to a person who you know well enough to advise, and you're genuinely coming from a helpful place, and they still get offended then I'd say that's on them and not you. I guess it's then about knowing who is going to get pissy at you and who will appreciate it. Don't know!


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> People are getting offended by themselves, and I'm tired of it, stop getting offended and become a warrior clansmen.


as i always say
you want the truth?
you can't handle the truth
oh wait, that was jack nicholson
sorry jack
but yea i don't understand how others can be so easily offended by non offensive statements
i figure if they return after i offend them then they are a glutton for punishment


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## TemptingFate (Jun 15, 2015)

Many people bring up good points here.

Sometimes tact gets a message through much better, sometimes "proof is in the pudding" type of aggressive argumenting is better. I think the difference is sticking your chin out, the difference between saying "have you ever considered this, because of x or y" vs "you are most definitely wrong, here is why: x, y". The latter type of argument if solid will "force reality" because if it truly is an objectively true argument it can't be denied, but it may not be pleasant and it doesn't give the reciever the option of accepting or rejecting it.


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## RK LK (Sep 19, 2013)

Extroverted thinking =/= Being a jerk


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## TemptingFate (Jun 15, 2015)

Being blunt =/= being a jerk


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## Prada (Sep 10, 2015)

People are often offended by things that threaten their reality. A fat person who eats a lot of sweets every day and talks about his/her weight not being in his/her control isn't going to accept the fact that they're fat because of too man sweets when you outright state it. 

If your purpose is to offend them, they go ahead and state facts as they are but if it's not and your approach makes them uncomfortable and you still do it then what is the purpose behind your actions? If you do it to just state your opinion, there are multiple ways to do it without making it sound like a personal attack (no, people don't always understand how you mean it and they can misunderstand very often). If you do it to help them then why use a way that you know will make them not listen to you? When I want to be brutally honest to people (sometimes it's necessary), I tell them in advance and ask them if they want to hear it. I never got a negative reaction to this procedure.

In order words, if you want people to listen to what you have to say, you need to alter your way of talking to their nature/needs because everyone has a different brain and people don't know how you mean things if they don't know you really well (and even then misunderstandings can happen).


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

TemptingFate said:


> Being blunt =/= being a jerk


Sometimes it does though.


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