# Enneagram. Too focused on the negative?



## William I am (May 20, 2011)

So you're saying the enneagram system is all about a variety of vices and terribly dark aspects that we all pick from. But they're all bad and anything good is just a bad thing in disguise. 
I'm sorry, but I can't take that seriously.

You're saying the root of the problem is the behaviour. That sounds like the behaviour causes itself to me - and that would be circular logic. 
Can you explain the premise of the system to me? Is it the freudian premise that everyone is just a bundle of messed up dark desires? That seems just as unrealistic as saying everyone only has strengths. 

Maybe I don't like it because I believe that my soul is primarily healthy, not primarily depraved.


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

William I am said:


> So you're saying the enneagram system is all about a variety of vices and terribly dark aspects that we all pick from. But they're all bad and anything good is just a bad thing in disguise.
> I'm sorry, but I can't take that seriously.


That's basically a summary of classic enneagram theory. But, there's nothing set in stone to say that this interpretation is absolutely correct.


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## alionsroar (Jun 5, 2010)

I think the enneagram is about the lies we tell ourselves.

The person with type 9 might lie and say, 'I'm at peace, nothing bothers me."
It may be closer to the truth to say, "It's only because I withdraw from life, from people, from exerting myself that I am peace, and even then I'm actually quite angry about my situation."

It's not necessarily the behaviour that is at the root of the problems, but the reasons for doing the behaviour. The behaviour is just a defence.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

William I am said:


> So you're saying the enneagram system is all about a variety of vices and terribly dark aspects that we all pick from. But they're all bad and anything good is just a bad thing in disguise.
> I'm sorry, but I can't take that seriously.
> 
> You're saying the root of the problem is the behaviour. That sounds like the behaviour causes itself to me - and that would be circular logic.
> ...


The root of the problem is not the behavior. The root is a distorted view of reality because you missed out on a specific aspect of it. This aspect is specific for each type. Every behavior of that type, good or bad stems from this delusion. 

The real motivation is that everybody wants to be loved, to be counted, to be significant; basically to be human. But because of this distorted view of reality, they go about it the wrong way. 

So this motivation is like the engine of the car and the distortion is like a dirty windshield. You keep driving forward but you keep running into hazards or avoid things that are not really there because you can't see clearly. When people ask you about your experience, you'd report that the landscape is full of holes or something's wrong with the tires. You'd try to fix the alignment or the transmission but what you really need to do is clean the windshield first.

So you drive around with this mucked up vision for so long, you develop certain adaption because of it. Let's say you have this giant spot on the right side of you windshield, every time the light changes, you see a big obstacle on your right and you make a drastic left turn to avoid it. When you first did it, you weren't very good, the car spun out of control or even crashed. After a while, you get better at it and can do it with relatively less turmoil. So your "*strength*" is making crazy left turns without flipping over and you're proud of it but the question is do you really need to do it in the first place? Just because you don't flip over, doesn't mean it doesn't cost you. It disrupts your direction, you forget where you were going, takes forever to get there and you constantly have to get new tires. 

Still, the ability to make crazy left turns is not all "bad", it could be considered strength because there are times you have to do it, but only if the windshield is clear enough to see that there's a real obstacle and also clear enough that you steer in the right direction and not end up in a real ditch. 

To recap, the spot on your windshield is the loss of a specific view of reality, the sensitivity to "holes" on the right side is your specific delusion, the tendency to make crazy left turns is you specific reaction/compulsion and the ability to make crazy left turns is your "strength." 

If you were to approach this like a typical self-improvement book with "your strengths are... your weaknesses are..., you need to improve on...", it would go like this: your strength is the ability to make crazy left turns. It might even glorify it like: you're fantastically manuverable driver. And your weakness is your right front tire always blows out. From that description, there's no way for you to fix the problem correctly. What it should say is you have a giant spot on the right side of your windshield, *"focus on the negative" and remove the disgusting bug carcasses and dirt so you can see clearly.*

So there's really no good/bad dichotomy with behavior in the context of the enneagram. It's either you do something out of compulsions (caused by your distortion) or you do it because you really want to do it. That's real freedom.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

@Adfoster - Thank you! I like what you're saying. I guess I haven't been communicating well. 
Using your analogy, I feel like the enneagram descriptions talk all about the left turns, the blown tires, (and some) the maneuverability - but none of them say YOUR WINDSHIELD IS DIRTY.

In other words, they talk about the resulting behaviours and tendencies, but not the causal misperceptions. ...Or maybe I need to re-read it because I wasn't perceptive to the descriptions. 
Being aware of the misperceptions is where I want to start - not at the behaviours. I want to kill the bacteria, not blow my nose.


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## spifffo (Jan 21, 2010)

Your personality is not always bad nor is it intrinsically bad, but the Enneagram helps you learn to recognize when it is hurting you so you can stop. Enneagram focuses on the _limitations _of our habits. When we loosen up the habits, the positive naturally shines through. The habits themselves can be both helpful and hurtful, but in my understanding Enneagram is practiced by recognizing habits-gone-wrong _at the same moment that you are acting them out _and being able to stop and say, "This won't get me what I want."


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

William I am said:


> @Adfoster - Thank you! I like what you're saying. I guess I haven't been communicating well.
> Using your analogy, I feel like the enneagram descriptions talk all about the left turns, the blown tires, (and some) the maneuverability - but none of them say YOUR WINDSHIELD IS DIRTY.
> 
> In other words, they talk about the resulting behaviours and tendencies, but not the causal misperceptions. ...Or maybe I need to re-read it because I wasn't perceptive to the descriptions.
> Being aware of the misperceptions is where I want to start - not at the behaviours. I want to kill the bacteria, not blow my nose.


my pleasures 
Yeah, If you want to read up on it:
1. Almaas: Facets of Unity 
2. Naranjo: Character & Neurosis
3. Maitri: The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram (recommended), Enneagram of Passions and Virtues (optional)
4. Riso: Personality Types (recommended), Wisdom of the Enneagram (optional: more contemporary self help oriented, but still good)
5: Helen Palmer: The Enneagram (recommended), The Enneagram Advantage (optional), The Enneagram in Love & Work (optional)

Authors 1-3 are more fundamentals/spirituality approaches to the Enneagram. Naranjo is the teachers of all other authors so if you doubt something, refer to him. Authors 4-5 are also very good. If you want to explore the dark aspects, start with Naranjo & Maitri, Then cross reference it with the 9 levels of development from Riso. I'd say Naranjo's is enough to depress the hell out of anyone 

If you're religious: these authors are pretty good with a slight Christian slant:

6. Hurley & Dobson:What's my type?, My Best Self
7. Beesing: The Enneagram: a journey of self discovery

There are more Christian authors if you're interested.



EDIT: this page has a pretty good summary of the types from the points of view of Almaas and Maitri:
http://www.enneagramofawakening.com/stripped_naked.html


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## truittslo (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree with will I am... I need both the positive and the negative to see what to move away from and what to move toward. I need encouragement of what is possible for me and focusing on this is what helps me to grow the most personally... The negative scares the foo out of me to light a fire under my butt. But one without the other stinks if you ask me.


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

Eos said:


> I just took a test for enneagram because I was interested in what it was all about.
> I got a type 7w6 and as I was reading through the descriptions it just seemed so negative oriented. All of the types are described as having to deal with 1 or more negative emotions. Anyone else notice this or know why? Is it so we are aware of our weaknesses and can work to better ourselves?


The Enneagram, as I see it and use it, is a tool for your personal growth. So it shows to you the automatic reactions, the false images, everything that prevents you from living a fuller and happier life; everything that your personality put in place as a defense mechanism, generated by past hurts and pains. Plus, through the levels, it shows to us as we can actualize the best qualities of our personalities, once we set ourselves free from our fears (or basic fear).
So, it is, as I see it, a path of growth, which must obviously start with recognizing the causes of our pain.


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## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

I appreciate the negativity of the enneagram because it's most importantly the truth, but also it helps to stop people from falling into the trap of the Forer Effect. When you describe something in a positive way it is easy to agree that you could fit into that subject because it sounds like a good thing, hence the Forer Effect taking place. If people do identify with the wrong type, which I've seen so many do even in the enneagram, then they will have to face negative characterizations about them which they will have to come to terms that they are not the type which they have thought that they are until now. Honesty and the individual is a tough barrier to break through because it takes experience in not fitting a mold enough times to begin the process of coming to terms with your own psychology.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

dfoster said:


> The root of the problem is not the behavior. The root is a distorted view of reality because you missed out on a specific aspect of it. This aspect is specific for each type. Every behavior of that type, good or bad stems from this delusion.
> 
> The real motivation is that everybody wants to be loved, to be counted, to be significant; basically to be human. But because of this distorted view of reality, they go about it the wrong way.
> 
> ...


This was very well said. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post. Very thought provoking. Thanks for taking the time for creating this response.


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## emerald sea (Jun 4, 2011)

it's realistic rather than idealistic. sometimes MBTI descriptions are really idealized to the degree of inaccuracy.

no one is perfect; every type has inherent vulnerabilities that they seek to overcome, and innate driving desires that they seek to obtain; there are various degrees of psychological health, that affect how our personality reflects itself...MBTI neglects these things, but enneagram theory defines them in detail. 

cognitive functions are about how our brains naturally operate; and MBTI is about outward behaviors associated with usage of a certain set of cognitive functions, in a certain order of priority. 

if you just want a functional understanding of personality, go for MBTI and cognitive functions...but you will find that a lot of the "pieces" you find in the world don't fit neatly into that puzzle. where things don't fit, more often than not, the answer is not in how the brain works, but in how internal desires and fears interplay to determine a person's choices and the face they show to the world. if you want to really understand the complexities of _why_ people do that which MBTI cannot explain, you have to study enneagram theory...it fills in MBTI's blanks.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

n2freedom said:


> This was very well said. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post. Very thought provoking. Thanks for taking the time for creating this response.


Wow, thx. I didn't realize you read this post. It's good to look back and see what one wrote after a learning period. I got most of this from Almaas, great author.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

dfoster said:


> Wow, thx. I didn't realize you read this post. It's good to look back and see what one wrote after a learning period. I got most of this from Almaas, great author.


Forgot how I stumbled across it. But, yes it was very thought provoking and I agree with you when it comes to distortions we definitely can erroneously attribute them as strengths in a good way. I was just thinking about this the other day as it relates to my fear of letting down my guard in romantic relationships and truly opening my heart and being vulnerable. Well, really tbh my issues with vulnerability period (now that I'm aware of it :wink....but anyway I've come to realize that the possibility of getting hurt, blindsided, deceived, yada, yada, yada is all a part of life. 

And, it's no reflection on my strength or lack thereof when this happens. When people choose to behave in that manner and/or circumstances causes the pain and/or my very own thoughts about the situation causes the torment....it's not the end of the effing world and life will go on. The ironic part of it is all this time I thought I was in control and directing everything because of my little orchestrating when in actuality I've only been deceiving myself and perpetuating a never ending cycle of emptiness. 

What I have conditioned myself to think makes me feel alive and/or in control really are the things that keep me imprisoned and the only being held hostage is me. This has been a rude, rude awakening for me. I have been so blind all these years to my side of the crazy equation. While in my quest to be free, I locked myself up in a prison. While in my quest to gird myself against rejections, I rejected myself. While trying to blame others and say they were the one who owned the problem, most of it was my subconscious manifesting in reality all the bullshit seeds I had planted in my own mind over and over and over again.

Yes, dfoster I really enjoyed your post and having been reminded by your thank you...I realize that I am trying to come to grips with myself and strip away all the ego and attempt to see who is the person behind the ego defenses. I get glimpses of her but hell it is hard to do in a world filled with so much fucking ego. But, I keep telling myself that true courage comes from an open loving heart that believes in the best in others, that believes in abundance, that can love beyond the ego defenses. I'm not there yet not even close but I am determined with each passing day to invest the time in me ...uprooting all those mind toxins, fertilizing my soil, planting new seeds, and awaiting a new harvest.

I truly appreciate this post and several of your other posts where you are constantly re-directing to the path of discovering one's true essence. Look forward to more of your posts.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

n2freedom said:


> Forgot how I stumbled across it. But, yes it was very thought provoking and I agree with you when it comes to distortions we definitely can erroneously attribute them as strengths in a good way. I was just thinking about this the other day as it relates to my fear of letting down my guard in romantic relationships and truly opening my heart and being vulnerable. Well, really tbh my issues with vulnerability period (now that I'm aware of it :wink....but anyway I've come to realize that the possibility of getting hurt, blindsided, deceived, yada, yada, yada is all a part of life.
> 
> And, it's no reflection on my strength or lack thereof when this happens. When people choose to behave in that manner and/or circumstances causes the pain and/or my very own thoughts about the situation causes the torment....it's not the end of the effing world and life will go on. The ironic part of it is all this time I thought I was in control and directing everything because of my little orchestrating when in actuality I've only been deceiving myself and perpetuating a never ending cycle of emptiness.
> 
> ...


So awesome to read this. I have to say of all the people I've encountered on all forums, you're the one who's most sincere and genuine about finding her true herself. 

It's the occasional glimpse of the soul that keeps me motivated. Yes, I have experienced it, unlike anything I can attain from my own effort. It's what's described as your Soul Child by Maitri. It's who you really are before the ego took over. Kathleen Hurley puts it best in "What's My Type?" about self remembering: 


> ... to remember self is to forget who you think you are... making a conscious choice to recall that part of yourself that was created to be positive, understanding, loving, and free. It is the choice to remember, awaken, and reunite with the sleeping child, Real Beautiful Self.


According to Hurley, self-remembering, forgiveness and "*Blessing of the Past*" are essential to finding one's true self. I found this concept of Almaas particularly challenging: Everything happened EXACTLY the way it was supposed to. Ego striving and suffering come from us losing sight of this truth. Which means nothing you could have done from your own effort that could have changed it. It's the universe unfolding itself, you're just along for the ride. But once you see this, blessing of the past and forgiveness come much easier.

I also got glimpses of the real world, the world described by Almaas and Riso: *everybody is hurting*. Yes, it's hard to see it through them cursing you and plotting harms against you but the wounds are there. 

I was locked into a heated argument with this vile, most unreasonable person. Then for a fraction of a second, probably even shorter than that, I couldsense the woundedness in his voice, almost like he was crying and pleading. But his words and gestures were anything but. So one part of me saw him wanting to fight, one part saw him crying at the same time. A younger version of me would have escalated it into a violent situation. After the incident was over, I was still in awe of what I saw. I had never seen that before. I believe it was a momentary break from the sleep state. I believe it was because I have learned of my distortion and delusion. 

In order to relax our compulsions, we have to be able to trust. Trust in what? not in our ego but in Providence. Almaas drives home this point very well: "you just know in your bones that you will be OK"



> If you don't have basic trust, you will react to what arises in accordance with your conditioning and will want your process to go one way or another. You won't let yourself be *present*; you'll be tense and contracted. So basic trust is needed for you to be able to allow the ego to die, and also for you to be willing to *just be *without reacting...
> 
> ...you not only are willing to jump into the abyss, you not only are able to be with whatever arises, but you also trust that wherever things take you will be okay. This allows *the natural unfoldment of your soul*, opening to your inner nature.





> Without basic trust, we don't have trust in our nature, our inner resources, and in the universe that gave birth to us and is constantly supporting us, constantly providing for us, and will continue to providing... Without that trust, we don't experience ourselves as children of the universe... We experience ourselves as abandoned, outcast, left on our own -- and not only on our own, but lacking and deficient in capacities... alone, isolated, separated,... unable.. So we live in a *constant state of fear*. This is the *basic position of the ego*


Lack of trust in Providence leads to fear, and as Riso stated, fear leads to our specific compulsions. I want to be constantly reminded of this at all time, it seems whatever bad situation I'm in, it has to with lack of trust that leads to fear. And this trust can only be restored by seeing that *the universe is good*. Not only reminded but I think we have to drive ourselves to find evidence of it day by day, moment by moment that it becomes a habit of thoughts and feelings. 

So glad to be able to talk about this, thx


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

TJSeabury said:


> I just took a test for enneagram because I was interested in what it was all about.
> I got a type 7w6 and as I was reading through the descriptions it just seemed so negative oriented. All of the types are described as having to deal with 1 or more negative emotions. Anyone else notice this or know why? Is it so we are aware of our weaknesses and can work to better ourselves?


if you think the description you read was negative, take a stab at Naranjo or Maitri. you'll probably get embarrassed or defensive just by reading them.
truth is, the enneagram goes beyond motivation. these are merely symptoms of one of the nine mental prisons people have trapped themselves in that have distorted their ego and view of reality. personally, I often refer to it as the "reality-bitch-slap-o-gram" as I feel that's a more accurate term. 
I will add one caveat however. most enneagram theorists tend to paint the ego as a wholely negative phenomenon. personally, I see a healthy amount of ego as a source of fulfillment, motivation and personal flair is one has the ability to keep it in check and subservient to one's well being (let's face it, with no ego whatsoever, life would be pretty damn boring). Enneagram, in my opinion, is all about becoming aware of one's ego and learning to free one's self from it's grip (whether one views ego as a negative or a positive, being a slave to it unknowingly could never be a good thing)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

William I am said:


> That's a pretty bizzare, or at least unhelpful, system to create for typing people. T*hat makes it sound like a set of neuroses with different people tending towards different clusters of them*. That's not how I read Enneagrams at all. Each e-gram has different priorities, which can lead towards specific issues, but can also lead to a lot of good things.
> On the topic of unhelpful, what's the use in designing a system to tell people all the different ways they can suck or be defective without giving them any ideas of the assets of their trends?
> That would be like typing MBTI with all of the bad things like that my type is the 2nd least likely to finish post-high school education. We're also one of the most creative, observant, and likely to succeed as entrepreneurs.
> Focusing on the bad is not a good thing for anyone.


because they ARE neuroses. that's why the title of Naranjo's book is called Character Neurosis. in a sense, it's really like a mental illness (a mental illness that has a few side effects, but a mental illness)


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> because they ARE neuroses. that's why the title of Naranjo's book is called Character Neurosis. in a sense, it's really like a mental illness (a mental illness that has a few side effects, but a mental illness)


 I think defining "personalities" through mental illnesses encourages mental illness. It seems hypochondriac and sickly to take it seriously and to embrace a defect/deficit as an actual defining characteristic.
When your worst traits are part of your self-image, it makes self-improvement more difficult.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

William I am said:


> I think defining "personalities" through mental illnesses encourages mental illness. It seems hypochondriac and sickly to take it seriously and to embrace a defect/deficit as an actual defining characteristic.
> When your worst traits are part of your self-image, it makes self-improvement more difficult.


they aren't "personalities" in the first place


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Hence the quotes.... What would you call them?


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## Dark Romantic (Dec 27, 2011)

The enneagram is definitely not too negative. Integration is difficult enough without giving your ego even more of an incentive to latch on to its neurotic defenses.


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

dfoster said:


> So awesome to read this. I have to say of all the people I've encountered on all forums, you're the one who's most sincere and genuine about finding her true herself.
> 
> It's the occasional glimpse of the soul that keeps me motivated. Yes, I have experienced it, unlike anything I can attain from my own effort. It's what's described as your Soul Child by Maitri. It's who you really are before the ego took over. Kathleen Hurley puts it best in "What's My Type?" about self remembering:
> 
> ...


Just phenomenal...so much confirmation in all that you have written. I especially appreciated the excerpts you included. I said confirmation because I was just reading a PDF stressing the need to forgive yourself in order to forge healthy romantic relationships. WOW! This post was well timed indeed. I have enjoyed each time we have shared unguarded and unmasked ...it has been most rewarding. 

I must admit when you first mentioned returning to True Essence upon our first unguarded/unmasked discussion I was resistant to hearing what you said. I guess the universe was using you as a forerunner on that one.  Lots has changed within me since that conversation that's for sure. Do you know when I initially subscribed to the Enneathought of the day emails that every time I read an email that suggested to practice vulnerability I would feel the same physical sensation of riding on a roller coaster during one of the unexpected dips in my stomach. Like a sinking feeling in my stomach. SMH.

Then I would sit there and ponder ....be vulnerable? but how would I protect myself? And, here you are saying what I think the Universe has been trying to get me to see for a very long time. Divine trust/trust in the Universe. Which brings me to another point I was pondering today...the ole "so within so without". Dfoster can I tell you I have changed in a lot of ways? There are some things in my personal relationships and on my job that I was trying to exert my force, my will power to bend things to work in my favor and it has been absolutely and totally futile and to no avail. 

Since I've made these changes within myself...my personal relationships have improved drastically and I am experiencing levels of intimacy that I thought would never be possible for me. I have experienced a major breakthrough at work and have finally been granted an opportunity that I have been trying to make happen for 4+ years. It is amazing how everything is starting to transform right before my very eyes and with the same people. So, it wasn't them..it was me. It's funny how the Universe operates as one big mirror reflecting back to us thru our experiences who we really are and where we really are in the grand scheme of things.

I think I totally get what you mean with the experience you shared about the heated vile argument. It reminded me of two experiences I've had this past year....I was shocked at my words of venom...it was like watching my self in 3D....and then seeing the tears run down both of their faces...pierced my heart. In times past, I wouldn't cared and justified it in my mind by saying they got what they deserved because they both crossed the line and didn't back up when I told them to. But this time I realized and saw clearly the effects of my behavior on both of them and how I had wounded them. I had to ask for their forgiveness because I knew that I had really hurt them both.

But, anyway bottom line you are dead on the money...we have to continuously day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute drive this concept home with ourselves until it sticks.

I totally appreciate you for keeping it real.


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## dfoster (Mar 8, 2010)

n2freedom said:


> Just phenomenal...so much confirmation in all that you have written. I especially appreciated the excerpts you included. I said confirmation because I was just reading a PDF stressing the need to forgive yourself in order to forge healthy romantic relationships. WOW! This post was well timed indeed. I have enjoyed each time we have shared unguarded and unmasked ...it has been most rewarding.
> 
> I must admit when you first mentioned returning to True Essence upon our first unguarded/unmasked discussion I was resistant to hearing what you said. I guess the universe was using you as a forerunner on that one.  Lots has changed within me since that conversation that's for sure. Do you know when I initially subscribed to the Enneathought of the day emails that every time I read an email that suggested to practice vulnerability I would feel the same physical sensation of riding on a roller coaster during one of the unexpected dips in my stomach. Like a sinking feeling in my stomach. SMH.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's so wonderful to hear. I wish I made half the progress you have in interpersonal relationships. I know I have clobbered a lot of people in my path. But I'm trying  It's amazing what a whole new world we're opened up to when we relax the ego defenses. My relationship with the universe has improved though  I've been in charge of a very difficult philanthropic project for the last eight months and we clearly did not have the resources to pull off what we needed to. It was almost impossible to account for every major thing that could go wrong. Then I remember what I learned from Almaas: if you think the universe has this in store for you then just trust relax and do what you need to do. In his words: "If you need to chop woods, chop woods, don't fret about it"  and things just fell in place. I'm learning to appreciate this every day


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

The enneagram is a growth tool. As such, yeah, it clues you into deficiencies...because nobody's perfect. :kitteh:


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

http://www.enneagramdimensions.net/articles/lets_depathologize_the_enneagram.pdf#start

Susan Rhodes wrote a book called "Positive Enneagram" in response to the negative outlook that she says is overly emphasized in enneagram theory. I haven't read it yet, but I want to see this perspective. The above link has her first article about this negativity. Then this second link is to amazon's "look inside" the chapters of the book. She talks about her stance more in depth.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0982479204/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

My book finally came in the mail! I hope it doesn't disappoint and I wish to learn a lot!


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

The descriptions I've read have sounded pretty *sympathetic* to me. There's a heavy focus on the negative, yes, but the flaws described sounds like defense mechanisms. People do these things because they're trying to survive.


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