# Type Comparisons & Common Misconceptions



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

This thread is a sister-thread, which I created along with this one:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...isons-common-misconceptions.html#post28906826

The thread linked above is only for my own posts. On this thread, you can quote my posts from the other thread in order to critique them, debate them, add to them, or comment on them. Also, feel free to contribute your own ideas on this topic - that is what I'm most interested in!

Let's rip up all the misconceptions we can think of!


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## Alette (May 31, 2014)

Nice thread animal!


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

I started with what I know best 

*- 6s desperately want and need to trust something external to themselves.*
Nope! While trust is crucial to type 6, it's generally in the form of constantly trying to discover what is trustworthy or not. This doesn't mean they cling to beliefs, but that they _examine _beliefs. Many 6's belief systems come from multiple sources, not one almighty source. And many see themselves as the only trustworthy thing, which means they rely on themselves before anything external.

*- 6s are easily fooled and willingly ignore problems.*
Actually, 6 is the most skeptical type out of all nine. This means 6s commonly spot problems before anyone else, and will often point them out in order to fix them. 6s are generally driven to solve problems, not ignore them.

*- 6s are paranoid babies.*
No one type has a monopoly on an emotion. Most 6s are unaware of their anxiety because it's always been with them. A lot of 6s will claim they're never afraid! Furthermore, a 6's anxiety is existential, which means it's intangible and hard to grasp. Any person who has pathological, clinical anxiety is _probably not_ a 6.

*- 6s are wimps. Especially those phobic 6s. Only counter-phobic 6s have the guts to do anything.*
Like I said, most 6s want to solve problems. This includes both varieties of 6, phobic and counter-phobic. A CP 6 will generally be louder and more aggressive, which means they're going to get more attention. A phobic 6 will generally be softer and behind-the-scenes, which means they're not always as obvious about what they're doing. An analogy I like is that the CP6 is the guns-blazing soldier and the P6 is the stealthy spy; they aren't suited for the same things but shine when they're properly utilized.

*- All 6s test people and are super defensive.*
Some. Others, not so much. In my experience, these sorts are CP and/or 6w5, but this isn't a hard-and-fast rule.

*- 6s are super high-strung omg.*
Um, no. Many 6s are very quiet about their concerns, and many are very level-headed. As said above, they don't have the monopoly on fear, or on freaking out.

*- 6w5s are the only 6 introverts, and 6w7s are the only 6 extroverts.*
Sorry, but this belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the Enneagram itself if you think anything about it has a correlation with intro- and extroversion. In other words, no, there's extroverted 6w5s and introverted 6w7s. Also, 6w7s aren't all bubbly.

*- Every 6 projects, so their complaints mean nothing.*
Now who's ignoring problems? Might it be _you_? o_o


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## Sirius Black (Sep 28, 2014)

Whoa, thanks @Animal. Nice explanation with visualization in music. Like it


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Very insightful! And it got me thinking once more about my own enneatype.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Lol forgot that I was supposed to reply in this thread rather than the other one. Anyway, like I said, it was very insightful and it got me thinking once more on my own enneatype. So far I'm thinking more about the 8 vs 6, but I'll get to thinking about 7 vs 4 later (although I'm pretty sure that I'm more 7 than 4).


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

FakeLefty said:


> Lol forgot that I was supposed to reply in this thread rather than the other one.


Haha it's ok. I figured that would happen.. I didn't mean to be a jerk or confusing.. I was just trying to make an organized splat-thread and have a discussion here. hehee. It's my tert Te trying too hard to be organized.



> Anyway, like I said, it was very insightful and it got me thinking once more on my own enneatype. So far I'm thinking more about the 8 vs 6, but I'll get to thinking about 7 vs 4 later (although I'm pretty sure that I'm more 7 than 4).


Ohh nice. yeah the 8 vs. 6 thing came up because some 7s needed to figure out their wings.


@Paradigm
Yes yes yes.  Can't wait to see if you do more of these!


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> Haha it's ok. I figured that would happen.. I didn't mean to be a jerk or confusing.. I was just trying to make an organized splat-thread and have a discussion here. hehee. It's my tert Te trying too hard to be organized.
> 
> 
> Ohh nice. yeah the 8 vs. 6 thing came up because some 7s needed to figure out their wings.
> ...


For me it's wondering about the general type rather than the wings. With me, I'm disgusted by a sense of vulnerability- to the point where seeing vulnerability in others irk me at times, because I remember times when I was vulnerable and remembering it brings a sense of disgust. That being said, I don't actively think about my own fears. I don't have a need to actively prove to others that I'm invulnerable. I've put myself in situations in which I could have been harmed, but I've done so not to prove that I'm invulnerable but simply because I didn't care (well it also seemed fun too). In fact, nowadays I'm probably putting a whole lot of strain on my health due to my lifestyle, but I have a hard time actually caring. I have a hard time mustering up a fear of my health worsening. I simply don't care (although that may be a bigger issue than enneatypes. *shrugs*). While I don't have the sheer confidence of strength, I don't really think too much about proving to others of my perceived invulnerability- at least from what I am able to remember and consciously think about.

Although the more I think about it, the more it could go either way.


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## FakeLefty (Aug 19, 2013)

Another thing to note, I have a natural tendency or desire to protect those I care about- or at least be a solid wall they could depend on. There have been a few instances in which I stood up against my dad when he would quarrel with my brother, and my dad is an ESTJ type 8. Although it may have been a daunting task for most people, my brother tends to be fairly sensitive to conflict and I couldn't help but support him. 

Overall, I consider it a greater indignation when the people I care about are troubled than when I am troubled.


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## Superfluous (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks, for this great post. Much much much, muuuch needed. I don't mean to make 7s look like enigmas - but I find many of us need to learn that there is a deeper meaning to 7s that are let on. *Repeat after me*: _7s are not superficially little ditties with superficial little hearts._ In fact, looking upon background of both of them, and the outcome of identity; I pretty much believe 7s and 4s are different sides to the same coin. Especially when kept in mind, that the saddest people often laugh the most. 

Sexual 7s and 4s & feelings: how to spot one, from.. my point of view.
4s are feely, 7 (for now let me just speak for 7w6s) while 7w6s are feely but in a different way. Of course, we're still head types when emotions are at play; 7w6s SX are aware of their feelings. Is it embraced, yet not fully - because it makes us feel off. Which is hard because as a sexual 7, you need intensity - which 4s seemingly love. Thats why I turned to music, there are certain songs, that makes me feel like there's wind in my hair and electricity at my finger tips. Contemplating it, intensity of 7s may depend of their exterior and intensity of 4s depend on interior. Like when you focus on a scene in a film, 4s might focus on the dialogue between two lovers, and how they breathe against each other's skin, and then the ambiance of the environment. 7s might focus on the lighting, the shading, the glow of the neon lighting against their skin, the environment is ambiance, and the slow breathing of the opposite person, that makes us say _ah, this is the perfect scene to finally confess how you feel._ *Sexual 7s, are driven off of suggestibility*1.* Emotionally, I think 4s have fire inside of them and they light up the room with their heart-felt powers of intensity, and 7s are lit on fire, by person place or thing, and in return get intense. If comparing 4 artists, with sexual 7s: you will see in interviews, that 7s cannot write emotional songs on cue. Perhaps, they can recall their emotions - they think how it felt when the situation was first dealt, but there is no.. pure emotion of the art. The pain, it comes and it goes, and it's down-cycled to downplaying. _Who cares if mom left, mothers are such overrated creatures, I mean all she did was nag, and she didn't even wipe my ass when I was young, I had to rub my butt on the rug like the damn dog_ and so forth (see @Animal's note on rejection) When talking to 4s, suffering seemingly stays fresh. 

Sexual 4s are apparently, driven by competition and envy. And if sexual 7s again, are driven by suggestibility, it would be quite easy for us to be thrown into a competition, especially if our ego is at sake. Then voila, another similarity to 4. 

7s and religions just.. I swear it feels like it doesn't mix. I would feel sorry for any 7 who was kidnapped by any religous cult; there is a terrible revelation of who you are, and a guilt. Huge anxiety, like you were destined for the darker afterlife. So I would really really agree with Animal, as she explains the morals of 7s through my fucking anthem, _Criminal_.

*Repeat after me:*_ a 7 with a dark intellect is not a 5. a 7 with clear introspective of emotions is not a 4._ !!!!! 7s are nicknamed the _Epicures_ for Naranjo's sake.. if theyre sexual, ha, they spit rhapsodies on the regular, and quite casually. (Get it? Epicures*2 > Epics*3 > Rhapsody*4) We're damn Hermes*5 of the Greek gods!!!


* *





*1: Suggestibility (Psychology): A.. Emotional characteristic where ideas or attitudes of other person is accepted without criticism; B. term sometimes used for hypnotic perceptivity. 

*2: Epicure: A, a person who cultivates a refined taste, especially in food and wine; connoisseur. B. Archaic. a person dedicated to sensual enjoyment.

*3: Epics: noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style. 

*4: Rhapsody: A. a piece of music that is meant to express a lot of emotion and does not have a regular form. B. a written or spoken expression of great enthusiasm, praise, etc. C. (in ancient Greece) an epic poem, or part of it, of a suitable length for recitation at one time.

*5: Hermes: Hermes is an Olympian god in Greek religion and mythology. He s a god of transitions and boundaries. He is quick and cunning, and moves freely between the worlds of the mortal and divine, *as emissary and messenger of the gods*, intercessor between mortals and the divine, and blah blah blah.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

We've had so many of these talks @_Animal_. I loved the most recent one about Holy Ideas, literature, symbology and my own infusion of critiques and comments from Buddhist and Taoist practice. I see some echos of that here which is excellent. 
This is one thread that I look forward to getting back to someday.  It's now officially stored in that gigantic memory you so adore.  

I am especially excited about the 7 vs. 4 posts. @_Superfluous_ made some excellent points. I am going to write more about 7/ 3 (my own journey, and you've been an indescribably amazing source of great questions, challenges, astute insights as always), 7 /4 (thanks to the discussions we've had in particular), 7/ 1 and perhaps 7 vs 8 at some point in the future. We had some great discussions on 7 / 3, 7 /8 and 3/ 8 on a thread by @_Swordsman of Mana_. So, that material should be easy to conjure and elaborate on. I am most intrigued and challenged by a 7/4 write up and next the 7/1 write up. I wasn't expecting to find anything I'd be interested enough in to the point of switching to Enneagram gears for the sake of discussion here, but this is good stuff. 

No telling when I'll get to posting here, though I will be reading this from time to time.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

@_Naqsh_ @_Superfluous_
I loved your responses <3

I'm using two threads because lately people have been asking me for my specific input and I don't have time to give it to each person separately, and I wanted to have a place to collect my comparisons as they come, especially since I'm using music and doing it in a different way than I have seen being done before.

I'm glad you both liked the 4 & 7 one. To be clear on the 6 & 8 one, I was responding to very specific aspects of 6 and 8 that came up in the Mistype thread at that moment, whereas the 4 & 7 points were made after a lot of percolation. The 6 & 8 was only focused on very specific themes that people kept bringing up, about wanting to be seen as strong. About 5 people in a row said something like "I want people to see me as strong, so I think I have an 8 fix/wing/core." I might have overstated a few things on the 8 side. But I'll be doing a more thorough comparison of those two types as well as others , over time.  

Can't wait to hear more responses!


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## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

@Animal, I really appreciate how intuitively you understand the Enneagram and how clearly you are able to communicate your knowledge.

I figure you probably know a lot more about the types you've considered for yourself, but I was curious about your thoughts on the differences between 6 and 1. I've been trying to differentiate each type's influence in my tritype. I'm SX-last if that's anything; any insights you have to offer are welcome :happy:

I for one think that there are a lot of misconceptions about 1's, especially when people mistake _what _people value for _how _they value. Some 1's value neatness and organization, while others (if I am indeed a 1, I count myself among this number) value beauty or human rights or other things depending on their upbringing and experiences. Both tend to be equally stringent about their beliefs, but can present somewhat differently.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

Hespera said:


> I for one think that there are a lot of misconceptions about 1's, especially when people mistake _what _people value for _how _they value. Some 1's value neatness and organization, while others (if I am indeed a 1, I count myself among this number) value beauty or human rights or other things depending on their upbringing and experiences. Both tend to be equally stringent about their beliefs, but can present somewhat differently.


I was working on a list for 1s and couldn't think of how to phrase this. Mind if I draw from this quote? 

Sad to say that my list for 1s (and if I do any other types) won't be as long as my 6 one.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Hespera said:


> Both tend to be equally stringent about their beliefs, but can present somewhat differently.


I think with 1s it tends to be moralism*, that self-righteousness.... Whereas with 6s it's a well-examined position, by erosion.
(Not morality*)


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## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

@Paradigm: go for it! 
@MrShatter: I bristle a bit at your characterization. As far as I understand it, I wouldn't call myself a moralist (feel free to explain yourself further here) and my values are (to me of course) well-examined. I'm thinking you mean to say that 1s tend to start off with lofty principles while 6s end up with principles through a more trial and error process; is this accurate?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Paradigm said:


> *- 6s are easily fooled and willingly ignore problems.*


HA! What idiot says that??? 

It sounds more like the 9s to play obtuse and pretend problems aren't there, if you want to peg such a behavior on any type. Six would be the last I'd ever associate with that.

To be more constructive, can someone do 7 vs 9? I've read lots of classifications and could easily write my own, but I am interested in others' perspectives.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> HA! What idiot says that???
> 
> It sounds more like the 9s to play obtuse and pretend problems aren't there, if you want to peg such a behavior on any type. Six would be the last I'd ever associate with that.


Eh, you'd be surprised. I find it's common from the people who think 6s are mere sheep who follow the status quo or the "strongest" "authority". I don't know how a type goes from being labeled Skeptic to being spineless yes-men, but so it becomes. (Naranjo labels probably don't help.)


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Paradigm said:


> Eh, you'd be surprised. I find it's common from the people who think 6s are mere sheep who follow the status quo or the "strongest" "authority". I don't know how a type goes from being labeled Skeptic to being spineless yes-men, but so it becomes. (Naranjo labels probably don't help.)


Well I would imagine there could be 6s like that, but most likely only because whatever they've vested faith in has held up to their skepticism and logic. And I'd think most would be open to leaving at a moment's notice if an inconsistency came up. Couldn't say about the lower levels. I agree, Naranjo's designation of the "weak" 6 probably doesn't help.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Well I would imagine there could be 6s like that, but most likely only because whatever they've vested faith in has held up to their skepticism and logic. And I'd think most would be open to leaving at a moment's notice if an inconsistency came up. Couldn't say about the lower levels. I agree, Naranjo's designation of the "weak" 6 probably doesn't help.


I agree, I reckon weak isn't entirely accurate, it sounds like a personal biased assumption/black and white judgement on behalf of Naranjo, same way he over-states the hungry aggression part about 8's, his judgements about 1's also are just that too - judgements at least in the beginning of his 1 description. It's one thing about his perspective I dislike, how he falls into that 'simple stereotype' trap in places.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

mushr00m said:


> I agree, I reckon weak isn't entirely accurate, it sounds like a personal biased assumption/black and white judgement on behalf of Naranjo, same way he over-states the hungry aggression part about 8's, his judgements about 1's also are just that too - judgements at least in the beginning of his 1 description. It's one thing about his perspective I dislike, how he falls into that 'simple stereotype' trap in places.


Yeah, if taken the wrong way, his words can be badly misused. I think he uses a simple brush stroke to illustrate a single quality of character, but it's a shame when it gets reduced to "SP 6s are like _________, so therefore you can't be that type" without seeing how each of the instincts and each of the archetypes plays into each individual. 

I think he is very astute overall, but I feel your gripe here. It ain't that simple; it's done for the illustration of a defense mechanism only.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> HA! What idiot says that???
> 
> It sounds more like the 9s to play obtuse and pretend problems aren't there, if you want to peg such a behavior on any type. Six would be the last I'd ever associate with that.
> 
> To be more constructive, can someone do 7 vs 9? I've read lots of classifications and could easily write my own, but I am interested in others' perspectives.


I could see that for 7 too but the way a 7 spins it is different from how 9 spins it. I think I understand 7 better than I do 9 as a whole, but the way I see the two types is that 7 are more prone to find some positive notion or more consciously downplaying the bad. Another aspect that differs 7 and 9 is that 7 is more outwards chasing their desires, more obvious in their focus of changing their attention and focus away from hurts, whereas 9s just disappear by self-erasing. They forget that it's there. 7s don't forget but more consciously deny it. 7s also have a much more clear sense of self and who they are whereas 9s really don't and in the case that they do possess a more defined sense of self, they are very certain that this sense of self is not lovable and at least in the average to unhealthy ranges, look for any evidence or proof that suggests how unimportant they truly are and may try to consciously erase their sense of ego-boundaries between self and others too, hence the whole merging thing. 7s may do the very opposite and often over-state their own self-importance in order to avoid the feeling of feeling useless and they do definitely not try to merge with others and their environment. 7s can be go-with-the-flow, but they only do that insofar that things move in the direction the 7 themselves want to go. 9s are less obviously in tune with life-flow due to their indolence and are more likely to move at the same slow pace through everything and when engaging an obstacle will either just keep on moving or come to an entire halt and refuse to move. 7s possess a fluidity in that regard that 9s don't. 7s know how to start and stop, but their issue is more that they have issues sticking to one path only when obstacles start to occur but will likely want to switch or change to one that seems more promising.



The Typeless Wonder said:


> Yeah, if taken the wrong way, his words can be badly misused. I think he uses a simple brush stroke to illustrate a single quality of character, but it's a shame when it gets reduced to "SP 6s are like _________, so therefore you can't be that type" without seeing how each of the instincts and each of the archetypes plays into each individual.
> 
> I think he is very astute overall, but I feel your gripe here. It ain't that simple; it's done for the illustration of a defense mechanism only.


I have a similar gripe with Naranjo in that I feel he often exaggerates to the point of simplifying like how he suggests not just once, but at least twice, in his 8 chapter that 8 is the most anti-intellectual type and the most sensor-motor driven as if 8s cannot have any thoughts on their own. I just find it downright offensive to the gut triad in general. It may be true for the 8s Naranjo has had personal experience with dealing, but to suggest that should be true for all 8s is just doing the type a great disservice. This is one of the reasons I mistyped for quite some time; I did not relate to how many authors exaggerate the aggressive and anti-intellectual behavior of the type. My personality type structure is 8, there are a lot of fine small nuances to how I behave and operate that indicate this underlying motivation though one may have to have to know me very intimately to observe these finer nuances, but it's one thing I'm not and that's anti-intellectual or stupid. In fact, a lot of my 8 characteristics play out in my intellectual endeavors. 

Another gripe I have with most 8 descriptions is how they over-emphasize lust as a need for sensory pleasure or physical indulgement. I mean yes, there's that part to it but it's not the point of it. The point is the chase itself, the struggle, and how struggle intensifies everything. It's how I told my 6 friend the other day how I have a hard time conceiving there to not be a goal to whatever you do in life. We were discussing our attitudes towards survival and how we deal with the hypothetical idea of how one comes back from failure. As a 6, she fundamentally fears it, she fears she may not be able to come back. Because of that, she worries that any mistake may be too costly and a lot of her time is spent on trying to figure out a way of how to avoid this sense of failure. I don't doubt failure, it's a non-issue. I told her that so what if I fail, at least I know that I tried. As a 6, she has issues understanding this kind of thinking. She told me that how do you know you can come back? How do you know you are ever strong enough? I said that I never doubt my ability to come back. In fact, I have a hard time conceiving a life where there is no such struggle for survival, when I've reached this odd pinnacle of being on the top and there is no opposition left to overcome. The idea itself felt oddly empty. If there is no struggle I'll create one, because in that struggle I feel like fighting for survival makes me feel alive, I know I'm alive because I'm fighting for my life. Not fighting, how can I discern whether I'm dead or alive? So while still kind of off-topic still on topic, I guess lol.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Hespera said:


> I bristle a bit at your characterization. As far as I understand it, I wouldn't call myself a moralist (feel free to explain yourself further here) and my values are (to me of course) well-examined. I'm thinking you mean to say that 1s tend to start off with lofty principles while 6s end up with principles through a more trial and error process; is this accurate?


Moralism* or Moralize. Because One's will think in black and white, (usually with high standard . . . critical.) 

Yes the principles are well examined... but I meant that sixes will examine by _erosion._ Picking at the weaknesses. One's strive for objectivity. 




Entropic said:


> I have a similar gripe with Naranjo in that I feel he often exaggerates


_Character Neuroses_ describes the ego-structures . . . not the people.
I getcha, but I think it's a misinterpretation, with Freudian overlay.


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## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification @MrShatter! I have a 6 fix so I do have the tendencies of both, but I think I understand


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MrShatter said:


> _Character Neuroses_ describes the ego-structures . . . not the people.
> I getcha, but I think it's a misinterpretation, with Freudian overlay.


Execpt he's not - he's describing behavior. He's not describing ego structure at all imo. Maitri describes ego structure, she describes how the ego is constructed, how you really think, how you see the world etc. In contrast I feel like Naranjo is describing behavior to such a degree that it gets exaggerated and stereotype.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

[No message]


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Entropic said:


> Execpt he* is.* - he's describing behavior


 of the defense mechanism. 

If you add the human element to Naranjo's description, the 'character' (caricature) normalizes. 
Maitri describes the (holy) perspective /"^see the world" . . . all as a refraction of the 9 fall. 

The misinterpretation belongs to the reader. I don't think any respectable psycho-analyst would tie strict thoughts/behaviors/traits to someone's internal world. There are so many other factors involved, psychologically and socially, that would muddy over.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

I have asked the mods to close the original thread , here -

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...m-type-comparisons-common-misconceptions.html

so I can use it for comparisons as I add them.

Responses can come to this thread.

The next few posts may be moved from the other thread. Feel free to critique or respond to the original thread in this thread.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MrShatter said:


> of the defense mechanism.
> 
> If you add the human element to Naranjo's description, the 'character' (caricature) normalizes.
> Maitri describes the (holy) perspective /"^see the world" . . . all as a refraction of the 9 fall.
> ...


I still don't see how he's describing the inner aspect of the psyche. I don't see him being focused on the inner experience at all. He's all about the outer. How does his caricature "normalize"? If it were, then you'd think people would also understand this and would not take his word at so much face value. Take this quote for example:



> Sensory-motor dominance
> 
> Beyond the concepts of lust and hedonism, rebellion, punitiveness, dominance, and power- seeking, toughness, risk taking, narcissism, astuteness, is in ennea-type VII the predominance of action over intellect and feeling, for this is the most sensory-motor of characters. The characteristic orientation of ennea-type VIII to a graspable and concrete “here and now”—the sphere of the senses and the body-sense in particular—is a lusty clutching at the present and an excited impatience toward memory, abstractions, anticipations, as well as a desensitization to the subtlety of aesthetic and spiritual experience. Concentration on the present is not simply as a manifestation of mental health as it could be in other character dispositions, but the consequence of not deeming anything real that is not tangible and an immediate stimulus to the senses.


It is _very_ difficult to not read Naranjo here as explicitly associating and expressing that he thinks that these behaviors and attitudes that he mentions here, should showcase a direct behavioral correlation of what he describes and the type in question because he is after all, describing _behavior_. 

You cannot blame the reader to not "understand" if Naranjo himself uses such language where the implicit meaning makes it quite clear that he is seemingly drawing a direct correlation between the two. I should clarify that I don't think I possess poor reading comprehension.

In addition, I want to add that Jung too, exaggerates his portraits, but he comes with a disclaimer that he does and he makes it clear that he is describing people who are overly differentiated toward their dominant function with no auxiliary input, something he mentions _in _his descriptions as well.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

6 vis-a-vis 8 and strength is a complicated subject because deep down though, the 8 does want to be strong, hence they mimic the idea they think what strength is. An 8 fundamentally feels powerless - that is why power and control is such a pivotal part of their type structure in the first place. To be powerless means being vulnerable and the 8 learned that vulnerability leads to pain. To avoid pain then, is to avoid any means possible one can be vulnerable. So the biggest difference between the two is that while both types seek strength, one can say that the 8 feels that they succeeded whereas the 6 never quite feels that they do. 6s always doubt in their ability to be strong enough. An 8 never doubts this, and the idea of discussing whether the 8 is strong or not is seen as nonsensical. From personal experience of being showered by people in my environment who told me how strong I was/am for putting up with the stuff I've gone through, if anything, such reactions are not seen as successes but there's more of a sad faint that one wonders why no one sees you underneath it all, if this is all you are and have become and there's this resigned idea that it's too late and nothing can be done about it because done is done. 

To 6s, it's more that they want to prove to themselves and others that they are strong enough but the difference here is that the 6 does not consciously experience themselves as strong, and to 8 the idea of consciously seeing themselves as strong or not is not a relevant line of thought in the first place. You do what you gotta do, and whether others see that as strong or not is on them. 8s ultimately hold themselves responsible for all that they do, and they assume that is true for everyone else as well. One has only oneself to look after, because the 8 learned very early that you cannot trust or rely on others to look after you so set out on assuming that this is true for everyone. In comparison, while 6s often feel that they are isolated and left out to only look after themselves, they seek support from the outside environment and want there to be some kind of comraderie that they can group up together with in order to overcome obstacles together. 8s do it alone and fundamentally think they have to do it alone. 6s are also much more consciously aware of how they are perceived by others and how they come across, but 8s don't find what others think very relevant. 

Also, strength for 6 and 8 mean different things. Strength for 6 is to feel solidity, to know that one is able to withstand changes regardless of what happens. For an 8, strength is the idea to not be affected, especially emotionally. 8s will hint to others when they feel they want support but never overtly express it because expressing such emotional needs are seen as making oneself as vulnerable and they may not be fully consciously aware what they are doing when they do it, whereas 6s in a similar situation, may overtly deny any external need for support and claim they will manage on their own and even lash out at others if they see others reaching out a helping hand. They will interpret such actions as proving to them that they are fundamentally weak. The 8 in contrast, may feign indifference but is probably unknowingly happy and may sneer that they won't take responsibility for the actions of others' but won't stop others either.

And yes, there's denial and then there's denial. 8s shut out and shut down all experiences that remind them of their vulnerability. It gets pushed down into unconsciousness. 6s are still always painfully and consciously aware of their own shortcomings and feel a need that they must work harder to overcome them. In the few instances 8s notice, they may berate themselves for being affected, but I think overall, it's more common for 6s to do that.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Entropic said:


> 7 v 9


Thanks for your perspective on that.



> In fact, I have a hard time conceiving a life where there is no such struggle for survival, when I've reached this odd pinnacle of being on the top and there is no opposition left to overcome. The idea itself felt oddly empty. If there is no struggle I'll create one, because in that struggle I feel like fighting for survival makes me feel alive, I know I'm alive because I'm fighting for my life. Not fighting, how can I discern whether I'm dead or alive? So while still kind of off-topic still on topic, I guess lol.


When I first moved out of my parents house...I formerly kept a lot of animals see. And every time I wanted to get one, I'd basically have to fight my parents for it. Urge, push, persuade, plead, bargain...or ignore their rebuffs and hide the evidence. I was sort of Hagrid, secretly keeping all sorts of wild things locked in my closet. Yes, even in my early 20s.

So when I moved out, I bought a hedgehog. And it felt so lackluster. I didn't have to fight for it. There was no victory. I didn't even have to hide it in a box in my closet. I realized I never wanted to have another pet again; all mystique was lost. I dunno what, if anything, that says about me, or if that's even what you're illustrating here, but it did ring a bell. So I shared.

Also the anti-intellectual thing. I actually do consider myself rather strongly anti-intellectual, but regardless of my core type (and I doubt that it's an 8 core), that attitude doesn't exclude curiosity and intelligence. I went to college for 7 years, I'm fascinated by nearly everything, and even as a grown adult I take classes all the time. Mind's gotta stay young. And knowledge actually _is _power. 

I just don't particularly respect the established hierarchy of people who've researched their entire lives and still don't grasp what's actually happening on the ground, which was my big gripe with college.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Entropic said:


> I still don't see how he's describing the inner aspect of the psyche.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not psyche?
I mean I think it's got a bit of a neurological vibe to it. 
It's not your comprehension; it's just your definition of behavior, or the lab talk.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MrShatter said:


> That's not psyche?
> I mean I think it's got a bit of a neurological vibe to it.
> It's not your comprehension; it's just your definition of behavior, or the lab talk.


When I think of the psyche, I think of psychological processes and reasoning. I don't really see him describing that. I wouldn't say it's my definition of behavior. He _is _describing behavior, no idea why you are denying that.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

Your comparison of 7 and 4 was spot-on. Note: I am not sx first, and it would be hard to mistake me for a 4.



> 1. 7s are SELF-PUNISHING. Everyone knows they have a sense of entitlement about them. "I am amazing and the world is my oyster." They have the gluttony... "I have to take and take as much as I can before it's too late." But there is also a line to 1, which makes them self-punish for this. 7s, if they believe in an after-life, often fear they will go to hell. Note that they are afraid of the consequence, more than they are ashamed. They have guilt, but not shame. Guilt is being sorry about your actions, shame is being embarrassed about who you are.


I can definitely relate to this...When I was a teenager, I went through what you might call a "4ish phase" like a lot of people, but with a 7ish twist. I wrote a lot of poetry. A common theme was hell. I didn't believe in any sort of god or afterlife, so it was mostly written ironically. I laughed at the concept. I was unstoppable. I read Marquis de Sade and romanticized libertinage. I actively spurned any and all of society's so-called "morals". I had no qualms about lying, stealing, sex (even/especially the weird stuff), drugs or being unfaithful in romantic relationships. Eventually I started having existential thoughts with the help of hallucinogens and what not and had these conflicting fears. I wasn't sure what I feared most: lack of afterlife or existence of one. I feel like I had/have a habit of throwing myself into hedonism to avoid thinking about that sort of thing. The thought of one day ceasing to exist was horrifying, but not quite as horrifying as the implications of an afterlife since I was obviously not suited for heaven. 

One of my earliest and most defined memories is of me in Sunday school. My uncle who I kind of hated (smug, moralistic, lawyer asshole who seemed to think I was a negative influence on his daughter/my cousin and best friend at the time) was teaching that day. I went to a mormon church until I was about 12. I was maybe 8 at the time and he was teaching us about the three kingdoms of the afterlife. The mormons preach that when you die you either go to the sun to be with God, the moon to be with Jesus or some unnamed star to be with the Holy Ghost. At least this is how he taught it to us simple children. The celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms. I don't remember them ever talking about hell there, probably because it was a bad word. Anyway, I distinctly remember raising my tiny hand and saying "I don't think I'll make it to the celestial kingdom," and he said "Whyever not?" apparently baffled that my 8 year old self would think such a thing. "I don't think I'm quite bad enough to go to the telestial kingdom, but the celestial kingdom seems a bit ambitious for someone like me," was the gist of my response. I remember always feeling like I was an innately sinful person, and alternately reveling in that fact and having extreme feelings of guilt, depending on whether or not I believed in an after life that day. I still struggle with this at times.

Another odd memory: Mormons don't get baptized til they are eight years old because you can't hold children responsible for any sins they commit before then. I remember the years up until my 8th birthday thinking I'd better get any sinning out of the way before I was baptized. I had to take advantage of that loophole.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

Also this


> 2. 7s are GENEROUS. They feel they have been blessed with so many good things, they want to endow their loved ones with these things because then their loved ones will never be deprived. Yes, they are gluttons, but they do have the capacity to love, and so the one thing that would break their heart would be to see their loved ones being deprived, and they will do ANYTHING to avoid this. But sometimes, like 2s (who are their opposite but on the same spectrum, like 4/8, and 5/1), they can feel resentful that the other person took them for granted or slighted them.


I am very generous which I used to think meant I had 2 in my tritype, especially since the descriptions of 7 usually don't make us sound very generous. I have a lot of people I would do anything for, and I don't care for things or money too much anyway. I am a glutton but I hate to see people I care about missing out on my pleasure. I have this fantasy of one day being so rich that I can give a giant check to everyone who has ever made a difference in my life. 

I am always willing to help out or share and there have been a few instances where I have asked something of people who I knew I would do anything for and have been nothing but nice and generous to them, and they responded with greed and I was deeply upset. It totally altered my view of those people and although we are still friends, I will never look at them the same way.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

Also this


> 3. 7s are NOT NECESSARILY COMMITMENT PHOBIC. They are truly escapists, but that DOES NOT mean that they run away from relationships and shy away from commitments. Once a 7 has made a commitment, they will often OVERLOOK PROBLEMS because of their positivity, and rationalize why everything is Okay. They will continue trying as hard as they can to make things better and tell themselves that this relationship is JUST FINE, that their job situation is GOOD ENOUGH, etc. Their positivity, and the ego "I can handle any challenge life gives me!!" can actually lead them away from making decisions to better themselves, and can cause them to stay in situations, seeing only the good side, for way too long. They really, really don't like to admit that their important choices were wrong. 7's motto is "I'm okay!" - they don't want anyone to think they're not okay. They might tell their close friends that they're upset, but at the end, they will add on a bunch of good things.


This is kind of related to why I thought I might be a 6 for a little bit, but when you say it like that I clearly had 7 motivations. I can put up with a bad situation at work for a very long time. Calling in to work is a big no-no for me. I would never do it unless I was deathly ill, and I will harshly judge those who do. I can be optimistic to a fault. "Well, I hate my job and my boss doesn't respect me and takes advantage of my good nature, but all my friends are there!" I have an almost Spongebobish attitude about work at times. I will vehemently defend my boss/company if others are talking smack. I truly want customers to be happy. I consider my enthusiasm my most deadly weapon and I am not afraid to use it. Really, I just don't want to admit to being unhappy or in a bad position. If I admit it then it might be true. 

And lastly


> 4. 7s DO NOT LIKE BEING CRITICIZED. They might have a monster ego, but they will take criticism to heart... it's a kind of "narcissistic entitlement" - they expect praise, and anything less will make them angry. They might even obsess over a person who rejected them because they have this need to be admired and loved, and when someone rejects them they feel like they want to turn it around.





> This is another reason they might be confused for 4s. Anger at criticism can look a lot like angry envy. 7s feel entitled to admiration, entitled to be the best, and can be spiteful toward someone else who is recognized as "better." But at the end of the day, 7s know they are awesome, and any clue that they are less than absolutely awesome will be rationalized away.


This is a quality I really hate in others, but definitely possess myself: Feeling naturally superior without feeling the need to exert any effort. The type of people who say "I'm smart, I'm just lazy." I hate those people really bad, but I am that person. I am likely to brag about getting a C in a class without ever showing up and claiming I could have gotten an A no problem if I cared to. And I feel like I can beat anyone at anything without having any experience. I love games and sports and competition but the one game/sport I hate the most is bowling because I am terrible at bowling. I expect to be good at everything naturally. It's not necessarily like in the 3ish way where I feel like I need to be recognized for my actions. I feel INNATELY superior, and I traditionally have not liked to be around people who show me up. I've always had to be the coolest person in a group. 

If anyone calls me out on something I thought I was great at, I will have some sort of crisis. "Is it possible I'm NOT better than everyone else? Why am I even here if I'm not better than everyone else? What do I bring to the group/table/world?" 

And I've always felt like my main goal in life is to find the one thing I am a prodigy at. It's there somewhere...There was a quote that I really related to about 7s. It was something like "I know I'm destined to do something great. I just don't know what that something is yet." That is my whole life.

I know all of this probably makes me sound like the biggest asshole, but I don't really think I am. These are my biggest flaws in my mind and I've been trying most of my life to be a better person. I think the enneagram has really helped me pinpoint my flaws and put words to my fears.


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Entropic said:


> When I think of the psyche, I think of psychological processes and reasoning. I don't really see him describing that. I wouldn't say it's my definition of behavior. He _is _describing behavior, no idea why you are denying that.


 I think psyche refers more generally to the mind. Behaviors refer to observable expressions.
What's your definition? I never denied that he was describing behaviors, (which I don't see in your quote,) but, if anything, that those behaviors served to illustrate his profile rather than define it.

I'm not trying to oppose you, only clarify.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Kitfool said:


> Another odd memory: Mormons don't get baptized til they are eight years old because you can't hold children responsible for any sins they commit before then. I remember the years up until my 8th birthday thinking I'd better get any sinning out of the way before I was baptized. I had to take advantage of that loophole.


That's the best!


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Kitfool said:


> Also this
> 
> This is kind of related to why I thought I might be a 6 for a little bit, but when you say it like that I clearly had 7 motivations. I can put up with a bad situation at work for a very long time. Calling in to work is a big no-no for me. I would never do it unless I was deathly ill, and I will harshly judge those who do. I can be optimistic to a fault. "Well, I hate my job and my boss doesn't respect me and takes advantage of my good nature, but all my friends are there!" I have an almost Spongebobish attitude about work at times. I will vehemently defend my boss/company if others are talking smack. I truly want customers to be happy. I consider my enthusiasm my most deadly weapon and I am not afraid to use it. Really, I just don't want to admit to being unhappy or in a bad position. If I admit it then it might be true.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this post. You're putting to name some of the reasons I am currently leaning toward typing as a 7.

I can tell you that the stuff you're mentioning here is only legit till you're about 30 or so, when you suddenly start looking more "adult" and you're no longer seen as this talented young person with so much potential, but an adult who squandered a lot of youthful opportunities. Suddenly, everyone is much better than you at quite a lot of things...and you still have no idea what you want to do with your life! God, I wish I had figured out some of this stuff at your age. I wasn't even really aware of this tendency; I only saw myself as 4ish and 5ish.

Anyway I don't think you sound like an asshole, not any more than any other type. I think its recognition that you are actually good at a lot of things; what 7s lack is guidance on what to actually do with those gifts. Good luck!! We all have an ego in some form, and it's about equally ridiculous for everyone.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> Thanks for this post. You're putting to name some of the reasons I am currently leaning toward typing as a 7.
> 
> I can tell you that the stuff you're mentioning here is only legit till you're about 30 or so, when you suddenly start looking more "adult" and you're no longer seen as this talented young person with so much potential, but an adult who squandered a lot of youthful opportunities. Suddenly, everyone is much better than you at quite a lot of things...and you still have no idea what you want to do with your life! God, I wish I had figured out some of this stuff at your age. I wasn't even really aware of this tendency; I only saw myself as 4ish and 5ish.
> 
> Anyway I don't think you sound like an asshole, not any more than any other type. I think its recognition that you are actually good at a lot of things; what 7s lack is guidance on what to actually do with those gifts. Good luck!! We all have an ego in some form, and it's about equally ridiculous for everyone.


Lol I would be so honored if I helped The Typeless Wonder figure out their type! I appreciate it. I haven't thought about a lot of that stuff in a long time, and getting it out was a bit uncomfortable for me, so I'm glad it might be useful to you. Especially all the weird religion stuff. Kid me was creepy. It's less creepy now that I'm an adult, but I've always been creepy. XD


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

And it is definitely a good thing to be aware of when you're young! I believe my mom is a 7w8. Not nearly as self-aware as I am, and I don't think she recognizes these patterns in herself. It's a shame.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Kitfool said:


> Lol I would be so honored if I helped The Typeless Wonder figure out their type! I appreciate it. I haven't thought about a lot of that stuff in a long time, and getting it out was a bit uncomfortable for me, so I'm glad it might be useful to you. Especially all the weird religion stuff. Kid me was creepy. It's less creepy now that I'm an adult, but I've always been creepy. XD


Mainly, it was just hearing about it from a 7. This is stuff I've always identified with, but most 7s I've talked to are like, LOL, I like doing things I'm bad at!!!

Anyway, I've been entertaining these thoughts for a very long time, so your testimony is very useful. Not necessarily definitive, but thanks for putting that out there. There are still many problems with me typing as 7, but I won't get into them right here.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MrShatter said:


> I think psyche refers more generally to the mind. Behaviors refer to observable expressions.
> What's your definition? I never denied that he was describing behaviors, (which I don't see in your quote,) but, if anything, that those behaviors served to illustrate his profile rather than define it.
> 
> I'm not trying to oppose you, only clarify.


Yes, but that's the thing as I already pointed out, he's describing outside processes as a way to illuminate inside processes. He does not concern himself with the inside, so instead goes on to describe what is on the outside and assumes a correlation between the two. That information exchange isn't made equal. He _is_ defining though, he is describing and thus also defining the type. His entire portion of the passion of each type serve as definitions of the passion. I can understand if he wants to push something to its very extreme in order to clarify to the reader but if that was his intention which we do not know, he utterly failed to clarify to the reader that this is what he was doing. Again, compared to Jung who even puts such disclaimers in his own descriptions where he may for example write, "Such is the nature of a pure X type". Let me highlight behavior in the quote I offered:



> Beyond the concepts of *lust and hedonism, rebellion, punitiveness, dominance, and power- seeking, toughness, risk taking, narcissism, astuteness*, this list here are all lists of traits or in other words, behaviors is in ennea-type VII *the predominance of action over intellect and feeling, for this is the most sensory-motor of characters*. describing outwards behavior, how the type looks like, acts or behaves, a character trait The characteristic orientation of ennea-type VIII to a graspable and concrete “here and now”—the sphere of the senses and the body-sense in particular—is a *lusty clutching at the present and an excited impatience toward memory, abstractions, anticipations, as well as a desensitization to the subtlety of aesthetic and spiritual experience.* again describing outwards manifested behavior or observable traits, of how the type appears to be *Concentration on the present is not simply as a manifestation of mental health as it could be in other character dispositions, but the consequence of not deeming anything real that is not tangible and an immediate stimulus to the senses*. this part here is seemingly the only more "abstract" portion of this paragraph, because he is describing an intangible or immaterial result of said behavior, rather than describing the behavior in itself


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Eventually I'd like to get to type 9. Right now, I'll start with my own type. This may be slanted towards Social instinct and/or 1w9, since I'm speaking mostly from my own experience. 
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------**
COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT TYPE 1:*


1. "Superego" 

I'll begin with a concept that likely applies equally to types 2 and 6, and that really deserves its own topic. It is a common misconception that the "superego" types, including type 1, are unable to develop their own ideas or in some way lack the autonomy of other types. This mixed with a sense of these types being high-strung, high anxiety, and always brinking on neurotic behavior. 

What we see described in the case of 1 is a "voice in one's head" or an "inner critic" that comments on everything the 1 does. You don't, however, literally hear a voice in your head, or have a separate entity speaking to you in real time as this type. When you are so closely aligned to your Superego that you take it for reality, you don't feel much of a separation from it. What the Superego in this proximity for this type feels like is more of a push to change something - an attitude, a thought, an action, etc that, when ignored, creates an intense discomfort. You feel as though you don't have a choice but to "do X." It's a kind of visceral pressure more than an actual voice. There are certainly times of self-criticism and scanning oneself for reasons to change something, but again 1's assume they "are" their superego and are ultimately self-forgetting (i.e. lack of awareness of self with respect to the superego). It doesn't feel like a loudspeaker in your head, it feels like "what is."


2. "Honesty"

1's are stereotyped as being "honest," but in reality being purely honest is something that this type works toward, not something they innately live by. 1's can certainly be blunt, straight-forward, and open about what they "really think," but that does not guarantee that they give their entire opinion, or that even their honest opinions are motivated by honesty itself. 

I'll vouch that being absolutely honest for me often results in irritation more than happiness. When it does, it's because I really didn't want to do it and had thought of a million ways to get around the situation without doing so. I would rather save face and lie at times than tell the truth, and if there isn't a consequence I'll do so. When there is a consequence, I will push myself out of lying. You have a sense that the lie isn't what's important, "X Y or Z" is what's important and the lie is in service of X Y or Z. 

3. "OCD"

This is probably the most common stereotype of 1, that 1's are OCD-ish to their surroundings. The stereotype is of being nitpicky, well-orderly, perfectly groomed, with every book on every shelf in perfect order, with a perfect house with no dust, or clutter to be found. Some 1's certainly are this way (more likely to also be MBTI SJ's or Self Pres 1's) but "perfection" doesn't in any way have to come through the physical world. The "perfection" is more trying to bring about a conscious or unconscious ideal by rejecting everything that contradicts the ideal - wherever that ideal is relevant, physical or non-physical world. 

4. Containment of Anger

It is certainly true that 1's hold more anger inside than they exude. However, the degree to which anger is contained isn't something 1's have a lot of control over, and it certainly is not the case that all 1's do a good job of containing their anger. For one thing, 1's are not often aware that they are angry (this is particularly true of 1w9), or may find another label for the anger and re-frame it as something else. Like 8's and 9's, 1's are very often unaware of how they impact others. Even with those who do contain the charge well, it eventually becomes obvious that they are at the very least dissatisfied, usually in the sense of lacking any kind of empathic or personal warmth. 

At the very minimum, advanced experiences of anger for 1's is not mere nitpicking or being touchy about details. While typically not spur of the moment physically violent, more intense iterations of anger for 1's can progress to verbal abuse, bullying, harassment, or more planned forms of brutality. The difference between this and, say, type 8 is a feeling of advance stage, complete intolerance more than impulsive reaction. There's more intent behind the reason for the anger, and it feels more punitive.

Overall I believe the "containment of anger" idea for 1 is overdone. You can't be aware you are containing something you don't realize is there. I'll attest to several times friends or family have commented, pre-enneagram world, "are you angry?" or "wow, you're really pissed about that aren't you?" and it has caught me by complete surprise. 

5. Obsession with Rules

Ask yourself, "whose rules?"

Type 1 is stereotyped as being obsessed with doing things "by the book" or per regulations. The problem here is that the type in fact relies on an inner ideal, that may or may _not_ coincide with outside rules. If my ideal of the "right way" of doing something is that it matches the rules, sure I will follow them intently. If it isn't, and for me at least it very often isn't, then other rules are irrelevant to me. As long as I follow my own conviction, I have no issue eating consequences of breaking other rules - it's like they don't exist. 

Type 1 can just as easily establish their own rules, based on their own standards, as they can run from those of others. A "rule" for a 1 doesn't necessarily feel like a conventional "rule." I don't carry around an officiating reference in my head; instead, I scrutinize what I do or say to my own ability to find error, and once I can't, I feel 110% convicted in what I do or say and that's it. Outside rules, peoples' opinions, etc mean nothing. Obviously, this can lead to a myopic charge down either a virtuous, or destructive path - which, actually is a dynamic with type 1 that isn't discussed often.

Bottom line is, some 1's are rule sticklers and some 1's make the rules. The type certainly runs from inner consistency, but with respect to what structures is to the individual. And further, rules for 1's need not be long-held rules. 1's often make up rules on the fly based on their inner ideal. 

6. Innate Morality

There is nothing innately "moral" or "ethical" about this type - not any more or less than any of the other 8. Some 1's, healthy 1's, can be morally heroic and sacrificial - but there is absolutely nothing within the type that predisposes to being a morally "good person," or even thinking about morals or ethics more than other types. 

This is because the type operates from the POV of "what do I do to avoid criticism," not "what do I do to be good?" 

Type 1 has a habit of bleeting out emotion and economizing one's inner "excess" to the point that inner warmth, compassion, and the interpersonal connectiveness required to respond to real moral issues in real time aren't always available to 1's. You can easily see 1's completely ignore situations of true injustice with a stone face, only to criticize the offender later or voice that they thought the situation was wrong. It is only in healthy type 1's that these emotions are available free-form.


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## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

Figure said:


> While typically not spur of the moment physically violent, more intense iterations of anger for 1's can progress to verbal abuse, bullying, harassment, or more planned forms of brutality. The difference between this and, say, type 8 is a feeling of advance stage, complete intolerance more than impulsive reaction. There's more intent behind the reason for the anger, and it feels more punitive.


Dammit, does this mean that when I finally snap and murder someone it'll be considered pre-meditated? Of course the only reason I'd probably kill would be vigilante justice, so maybe I'd get off 

And this is all-around excellent! Is there any way we can pin this thread or something?


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Execpt he's not - he's describing behavior. He's not describing ego structure at all imo. Maitri describes ego structure, she describes how the ego is constructed, how you really think, how you see the world etc. In contrast I feel like Naranjo is describing behavior to such a degree that it gets exaggerated and stereotype.


Yeah, I agree; I love Maitri and I never tire of reading her. Every time, I reread her books, I develop a new insight. OTOH, the more I reread Naranjo, the more confused I get. Don't even get me started on the goddamned homeopathic crap. LOL


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Chesire Tower said:


> Yeah, I agree; I love Maitri and I never tire of reading her. Every time, I reread her books, I develop a new insight. OTOH, the more I reread Naranjo, the more confused I get. Don't even get me started on the goddamned homeopathic crap. LOL


 Yeah! Maitri was one of Naranjo's students, and after she wrote the Spiritual Dimensions book, she thought Naranjo got a little crazy with trying to redefine the subtypes, and she stands by what she wrote as the more accurate portrayal. So there's a little bit of Maitri who agrees with you.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

cir said:


> Yeah! Maitri was one of Naranjo's students, and after she wrote the Spiritual Dimensions book, she thought Naranjo got a little crazy with trying to redefine the subtypes, and she stands by what she wrote as the more accurate portrayal. So there's a little bit of Maitri who agrees with you.


The main problem with Naranjo is in his ambitious attempt to categorize and simplify the types by linking them with specific disorders, is that, in order to be consistent with the DSM, he describes the disorder and attributes a type to it. At least, when Riso & Hudson did it, they were far more fluid and made a clear distinction between the two. This is not the case with Naranjo, where you really can't tell where the type stops and disorder starts, and it's this extremely narrow and woefully inaccurate portrayal that make his typings pretty much useless and being any kind of accurate descriptor for the types. Maitri, does the complete opposite as @Entropic states; therefore, her descriptions are the clearest and encompassing descriptions of any of the authors (as far I'm concerned), because she goes out of her way to avoid stereotyping and instead focuses on the fixations mostly in an internal way.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Chesire Tower said:


> The main problem with Naranjo is in his ambitious attempt to categorize and simplify the types by linking them with specific disorders, is that, *in order to be consistent with the DSM*


 I really had to stop reading right there to remember why I disliked Naranjo's descriptions. I mean, really? When major _neurological_ disorders get shuffled around per DSM edition, I'm going to question the judgment of whoever thinks the DSM is a good tool for _any_ measure. The irony is that my shrink was the person who taught me this.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Animal said:


> Why 7s might Mistype as 4s
> Disclaimer: This post is very sx-centered. All of the singers I used are Sx first and I was comparing Sx4 to Sx7... although I was thinking about 7 and 4 in general.. in retrospect this is very Sx heavy (inadvertently).
> 
> These are singers/songwriters who people often type at 4 (with the exception of Robert Plant) but who I feel are definitely 7s. I spent ample time with these singers, their interviews, videos, lyrics, writings, etc. None of these typings were quick judgement/superficial.
> ...



Okay, I confused this thread with the music thread; so since I got the quote from your stickied thread but couldn't directly quote from it, I got confused. Therefore, I am posting my response here, rather than in the mistype thread.

I bolded what I thought was most relevant. You contrasted guilt vs. shame. I used to - and still do - joke that guilt is my middle name but it's not so much about my actions or who I am but rather I relate very strongly to Joseph K. in _The Trial_ (my fave book of all time). because I have always felt and this omnipresent existential guilt - not shame - not about WHO I am but about at an existential level - undeserving of existence. That said, as long as there is hope for me in either a friendship or relationship, I may sometimes, put that person above me - as in IDEALIZE them but if they screw me over - either behave intentionally callously or maliciously disregarding my best interests; then I will flip the scripts and devalue them. That's the only way to survive it. Otherwise, I would be in serious danger of disintegrating.

I don't have trouble acknowledging my suffering but I totally relate to the whole rose coloured glasses thing. When I make a deep connection with someone or something; I don't want to give whatever it is up, too easily. There is this story about a little boy digging fin a cave full of shit, because - despite all available evidence to the contrary - he knows that the pony is in there somewhere and he'll inevitably find it - if only he digs hard enough. I'm a lot like that; once I have emotionally invested in someone/thing - just like 6s have an eagle eye for what could go wrong; I too have a razer sharp focus and any sign - no matter how trivial - that not all hope is lost. Sometimes, this has served me well as, I didn't prematurely kick someone/thing to the curb without gathering all available ino and analyzing it from every possible angle. 

Once I am committed to anyone/thing: I won't give up easily. I used to be proud of that until I scored highest on masochism on a personality disorders test (narcissism and avoidance were 2nd and 3rd). I could often save myself a lot of grief if I would just face reality and my deliberate self-delusion winds up biting me in the ass. I think that it hurts so goddamn much to admit I was wrong - to avoid the inevitable onslaught of pain; that I will keep the illusion alive as long as humanly possibly but I wind up suffering far more because I never foresee the inevitable emotional crash that threatens to envelop and destroy me. 

I also compulsive look for silver linings and crack jokes about the most horrible things. Like you, in 2008, I temporarily lost all of my hair all over my body. I coped by making jokes about having pain free Brazilians. I can tolerate and deal with minor hurts and upsets but if the pain is too deep, I may cry and be sad but if I can't - despite my best efforts - intellectually figure it out or I wil just refuse to face it until I absolutely have to.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

cir said:


> Yeah! Maitri was one of Naranjo's students, and after she wrote the Spiritual Dimensions book, she thought Naranjo got a little crazy with trying to redefine the subtypes, and she stands by what she wrote as the more accurate portrayal. So there's a little bit of Maitri who agrees with you.


Yeah, I noticed that lol. She actually explicitly stated that she disagreed with him in one portion of Spiritual Dimension in that one shouldn't link certain neuroses to types and that any type can manifest any kind of neurosis. Made me happy XD



Chesire Tower said:


> The main problem with Naranjo is in his ambitious attempt to categorize and simplify the types by linking them with specific disorders, is that, in order to be consistent with the DSM, he describes the disorder and attributes a type to it. At least, when Riso & Hudson did it, they were far more fluid and made a clear distinction between the two. This is not the case with Naranjo, where you really can't tell where the type stops and disorder starts, and it's this extremely narrow and woefully inaccurate portrayal that make his typings pretty much useless and being any kind of accurate descriptor for the types. Maitri, does the complete opposite as @Entropic states; therefore, her descriptions are the clearest and encompassing descriptions of any of the authors (as far I'm concerned), because she goes out of her way to avoid stereotyping and instead focuses on the fixations mostly in an internal way.


Actually, that's a very good point against Naranjo and you are right; it's difficult to separate what he considers is the neurosis and what he considers is the type. Furthermore, if you are going to extrapolate these two things, you will need to shave off elements in order to make them fit. Elements that may be important in order to create a nuanced understanding. 

I don't think I'll ever get over that he thinks 8 is the most anti-intellectual type and how I mistyped myself for so long because of it. As an unrelated aside to this, I like how Maitri quotes excerpts by Horney that are actually far more accurate in terms of behavior than Naranjo's. There's an excerpt about how the 8's sense of entitlement may show in relationships to others and how they will always try to situate themselves in a position of power over others through the dismissal of others' needs and experiences that was surprisingly accurate. I showed this to my girlfriend because she complains about this behavior of mine a lot and she found it amusingly accurate. 

Horney never really wrote much about the actual enneagram types though afaik? It's just that Maitri and Naranjo recognize that some of Horney's psychological profiles fit their perception of certain types.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Entropic said:


> I don't think I'll ever get over that he thinks 8 is the most anti-intellectual type and how I mistyped myself for so long because of it. As an unrelated aside to this, I like how Maitri quotes excerpts by Horney that are actually far more accurate in terms of behavior than Naranjo's. There's an excerpt about how the 8's sense of entitlement may show in relationships to others and how they will always try to situate themselves in a position of power over others through the *dismissal of others' needs and experiences* that was surprisingly accurate. I showed this to my girlfriend because she complains about this behavior of mine a lot and she found it amusingly accurate.


 That bolded part is literally (a usage of and a definition of) denial. Eights get power over others due to denial. We use it to observe things. We use it to test things. When we say "Get over it", we're using denial. Denial is how we concentrate.

Denial is eight's *primary* defensive mechanism, and I notice it when other people are using it. Really.


> Unlike some other defense mechanisms postulated by psychoanalytic theory (for instance, repression), the *general existence of denial is fairly easy to verify, even for non-specialists*. On the other hand, denial is one of the most controversial defense mechanisms, since it can be easily used to create unfalsifiable theories: anything the subject says or does that appears to disprove the interpreter's theory is explained, not as evidence that the interpreter's theory is wrong, but as the subject's being "in denial"


 Because it pisses me off when people do it to me.

[HR][/HR]*
Misconception:* Eights are *hurr durr* because black/white thinking.
*Eat this:* 
_Evidence 1:_ 
Computers work on binary (0/1) logic, but when was the last time people thought computers were simple?, and I do Holy-Truth include the entirety of computers from hardware (transistors level, minimum) to software (0/1 machine code, minimum) and networking (internet and the direction of the upper bound)?

And these are the "simple" things. _Obviously_ adding people into the equation will _totally_ simplify things, just ask your nearest IT person!


_Evidence 2_:
From the Denial wiki:


> The main objection is that denial theory is founded on the premise that that which the supposed denier is denying is *truth*.


 Gee, if only there was some kind of lesson one could learn that could fix this problem.

Oh wait, there is:


> *Holy Truth* is the *simplest* of the Holy Ideas, *but perhaps the most difficult to grasp without a direct experience of it.* The Holy Truth is *simply* that *All is One*. There is only one reality, one existence that is here happening right now. All of the different levels of existence, all of the endless manifestations, light and darkness, surface and depth, Being and non-Being are all part of one unfathomable reality that collectively is the Truth. Everything is exactly what it is and everything is an aspect of the one, indivisible Reality.
> 
> When we perceive Holy Truth, we no longer perceive of ourselves or others as objects, as things moving around against a background. In this living moment, the objects and the background, the dancer and the dance, the stars and the space that holds them are all of one substance, one ultimate Truth, one ultimate Reality. *The experience of this is immediate and non-conceptual. We feel the Truth in our very cells. When we know the Holy Truth, all sense of separateness, alienation, fear, and desire ends. We feel our unity with the One and realize that it has never been otherwise.* In this knowledge is liberation and profound inner peace.



[HR][/HR]
I love it when people question my typing, *as if it's any of their business*, _as if it really matters_. Does that detract from the content of what I'm saying? Because when people go "You don't seem/act/come off as an eight", I _​immediately_ start thinking:

1.) Are you projecting something at me or at the stuff I'm saying?
2.) That you are stereotyping badly. There exists people IRL who've known me for a very long time who would/did say I'm a walking caricature of those (8/7) descriptions. Thank you for telling me I'm improving.
3.) That you don't know the enneagram very well, and I cannot take your opinion seriously.
4.) Your opinions of me is none of my business.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I have had lots of people question my type. Some really obnoxiously blatantly. some offensively. ate and the ilk.

meh.

it turns out i'm not the same exact 8 as everyone else. or the same 8 everyone wants me to be. or something.

maybe i'm in denial.

probably that's it.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> I have had lots of people question my type. Some really obnoxiously blatantly. some offensively. ate and the ilk.
> 
> meh.
> 
> ...


 No! HURR DURR ALL EIGHTS ARE DUMB, and dumb people all look alike!

Has anyone else noticed that just about _all_ of the types are so poorly misunderstood?

A Comparison of the Nine Enneagram Personality Styles and Theodore Millons’ Eight Personality Patterns


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> No!
> 
> A Comparison of the Nine Enneagram Personality Styles and Theodore Millons’ Eight Personality Patterns
> 
> ndependence for them stems not so much from a belief in self-worth, as from a fear and mistrust of others.


No. I'm just better at managing bad situations than most other people. If someone is better I let them run the show.

I really do not understand why people say I'm scared of others. Denial? maybe, but I don't think so.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

@Animal: From *Animal's Enneagram Type Comparisons - Common Misconceptions*

_You will see 6's vacillate between being vulnerable and showing that they're in control. There is a strong need to be seen as strong and to perceive themselves as strong, which sometimes might interfere with their more vulnerable instincts.

_Okay, in which contexts are they doing this vacillating? Can vulnerable mean talking about ways for self-improvement?

_ 8s have a mechanism called DENIAL in which they DENY any weakness and vulnerability. Meaning they don't even feel it. So the idea that someone might see them as weak would be absurd. It would merit a reaction like "Pff.

_'Weakness' or 'weak'? Those are two totally different things to me. I know I'm not a weak person, but I do have weaknesses. I don't have a lot of glaring weaknesses, but I have lots of areas for improvement; I could be better with people, I could be a harder worker, I could be a smarter worker, I could eat a healthier diet more consistently, I could be wiser, I could be a better leader.
_
_I would say that the difference between 'weaknesses' and 'weak' is that weaknesses are more like things a capable person hasn't gotten around to, or maybe even flaws in his or her character that prevent them from ever getting to them. 'Weak' means that a person isn't capable; they recognize what needs to be done, but they just don't have the strength to do it even though they want to.

_I've been very close to two 8s in my life for many years. They are very different in many ways but this is common. And they both are much more willing to make themselves vulnerable around me than 6s. Because they know I'm strong enough to handle it and I will never take advantage. 6s tend to vacillate because they don't want me to see them as weak, they don't want to see themselves as weak, and they seek reassurance that they are strong. An 8, once they know you'll handle it and still respect them, they really appreciate someone seeing their humanity. This is what can be very hard for them to see. Sometimes they need to be reassured they are human.
_ 
This is interesting. See, I see it as weak if someone can't admit their weaknesses or failures when it's obvious that it's occurred. I have no problem apologizing. Is apologizing what you mean by vulnerable; admitting faults?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Kollinhausin said:


> This is interesting. See, I see it as weak if someone can't admit their weaknesses or failures when it's obvious that it's occurred. I have no problem apologizing. Is apologizing what you mean by vulnerable; admitting faults?


Apologizing is NOT vulnerable. Apologizing is Truth. 

Vulnerable is sharing secrets someone could hurt you with. Vulnerable is sitting with your back to the door at a biker bar when you've pissed off some of the local club. Vulnerable is giving someone your soul because you love them. Vulnerable is having someone tell you you are an emotionless, person wtih no feelings, and then going back for more. Vulnerable is giving up control to someone else. 

As for Animal, there is something about 2's and 4's which causes me to trust them. They cannot physically hurt me, and the nice ones truly do not wish to hurt me emotionally or spiritually. 

At some level I understand 4's. They desire to be unique and special, and by definition that is a given for me. I desire to be loved and cherished, and by definition that is a given for them. And we "see' each other for those qualities.


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Apologizing is NOT vulnerable. Apologizing is Truth.
> 
> Vulnerable is sharing secrets someone could hurt you with. Vulnerable is sitting with your back to the door at a biker bar when you've pissed off some of the local club. Vulnerable is giving someone your soul because you love them. Vulnerable is having someone tell you you are an emotionless, person wtih no feelings, and then going back for more. Vulnerable is giving up control to someone else.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Not a vulnerable person, then. Yes, Animal is trustworthy, but she obviously has good intentions so who wouldn't trust her?


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## MrShatter (Sep 28, 2010)

Eights have several ways not to perceive threatening information. Their psychological defenses revolve around an idea of themselves as more powerful than any potential opposition, so consequently their perceptions tend to maximize their own strengths and minimize an opponent's real advantages. One exemplar described himself as "not really brave, because I rarely see anything to be afraid of. I would believe myself to be brave if I felt fear and went ahead in spite of it. As it is, when I get into an argument, people look like pushovers to me." One classical way to not perceive a threat is to bury it by shifting attention to something else. For Eights, excesses like bingeing and overspending easily serve to block out the surfacing of a painful insight, or an awareness that could threaten a sense of personal power. A self-aware Boss can actually use the urgent desire for immediate satisfaction as a reminder to look within and find out what real needs are being subverted by excess.
A second way in which Eights can block unwanted insight from awareness is to so forcefully deny a painful issue that for them it ceases to exist. This way is not a matter of burying something you don't want to think about by diverting your attention to pleasurable excess. This way enables you to stare straight at something and not perceive it is there. An extreme example of the attention style that supports denial was reported by a recovering alcoholic, who, at the time that she was drinking, confronted her husband from behind a mound of whiskey empties piled in their basement. She believed that she had convinced him that she did not drink, because in her mind the bottles didn't exist.
Another example of our capacity to deny what we cannot accept is illustrated by the common request that physicians make when a severe diagnosis has to be given. The request is that a relative or friend accompany the patient, on the assumption that people tend to deny or rationalize threatening information. Eights are particularily prone to the specific shift of attention that includes only safe information and blocks out the rest. They are prone to this attentional style because of the childhood circumstance of having to oppose superior force.
A skillful adversary necessarily overlooks a great deal of information that is incidental to the task of laying waste to the opposition. In combat, perception takes on a black or white coloration, with a minimum of nebulous grays. In the kind of altered state of mind that anger can generate, attention narrows to a measuring of the opponent: "How do I take him?" "Where's the hole in her character?" "What will make him back down?" The internal assumption of one's own position as fundamentally right is essential; it guarantees immediate, unwavering action. The unfortunate side effect of a full-out confrontation is that the ability to accommodate new information is lost.

_I still don't want to listen to other points of view. I was so angry at adults who "couldn't help it," and kept messing up, that I just want to know exactly what to expect and ensure it's going to happen. The idea that there are multiple correct positions for different people is okay as a mental construct, but put into practice it so weakens my idea of being fundamentally right that I feel I must be totally wrong. It's a question of being all right or all wrong._

Outsiders may see an Eight as being stubborn in the face of rational alternative arguments. The Eight's perceptual ground tends to take on either/or reference points. "Are you a friend or foe? Leader or follower? Strong or weak? Against me or for me?" The insight that a middle ground of compromise exists is generally accompanied by a feeling of extreme vulnerability. Compromise leaves an Eight psychologically open to attack from any side, because the situation, being no longer black or white, is no longer predictable.
The following statement comes from an eighteen-year-old Boss. He is describing his predicament in becoming aware of threatening infromation that he had previously denied. He is also giving a voice to the attentional dilemma that we all face when our prejudices are aroused, when our racism is tested, when our politics come under question. In any situation where people become polarized into "me against you," attention quickly fixates upon the weakness of the enemy's position, with a consequent denial of the enemy's better qualities, or the weaknesses of one's own. The opponent starts to look like a nonperson, and his or her better qualities case to exist, because one cannot afford to keep them in mind.

_I got my full growth by the time I was in my second year of high school, so by the time football season came around, I was 6'3'' and about 240 pounds. Prime meat for the line. During an early season game, someone on the other team baited me, so I took him out. I got mad, and got my head down, and hit him as hard as I could, which cracked his ribs and three vertebrae. He was hospitalized for a long time, and then gradually recovered movement. For all that time I'd hear about it, but it wasn't true to me that it was serious, and it wasn't true that I had done it. The idea would come into my mind and it wasn't true, so I'd forget about it. I got the nickname Killer, which was fine because it backed guys off on the field, and because it didn't apply to me.
Around midseason it happened again. Same setup, a hard hit, an injury, and the guy was out cold. It was stunning. The whole first incident came back to me while I was lying on the ground. It was like taking blows. His pain, the weeks in bed, and I believed I felt the hatred of the guys who had been calling me Killer. It all came at once and kept coming up for the next few days. The end of the story was that the second guy I hit had a clean fracture that wasn't much; and that I quit playing. I took a lot of badmouthing from the team, who liked having a hulk on their side, but I didn't trust what could happen if I got into a blind rage again._

From the point of view of meditation practice, denial could be illustrated by the notion Don't let yourself think. This is a _false _practice, a mistake that beginning meditators commonly fall into when they first attempt to clear the mind of thoughts. In this _false_ practice, the meditator does not really withdraw attention from preoccupying thoughts as they come and go, but instead attempts to block out thoughts with forced concentration on an interior blank space. The rigid focusing of attention on interior blankness has the side effect of blocking out the internal awareness of thoughts and other impressions. As soon as the meditator relaxes concentration on the mental blank space, thoughts rush in again, and it becomes clear that awareness has never really shifting away from the thinking state.
Bosses will recognize the "don't let yourself think" state of mind as a kind of controlled wall staring, which they are likely to find themselves doing when something painful needs to be buried. An Eight can wake up in the middle of having been staring at a blank wall or an empty tabletop for God knows how long and find that he or she has a hard time thinking. The Eight is perceptually blanked out. If the mental blankout had a voice, it would say, "nothing painful gets past the tabletop blockade."
One Eight described the lifting of denial as "like opening the curtain on a stage. Everything you've been fighting against is staring straight at you with the force of total truth. You're totally wrong. You're an idiot, you've made an unforgivable error, and you want to punish yourself for what you've done." The special problem with denied material is that it can emerge into awareness suddenly, and with great force, which, given the Boss's preoccupation with justice, precipitates a barrage of self-hatred and self-blame. In the case of the young athlete, he was either a hero or a killer, with no apparent middle ground between the two extremes.
Eights also report that the lifting of denial with respect to one incident can act as an interior wick that allows other examples of the incident to emerge, in a kind of chain reaction of memory. Eights say that once they perceive something bad about themselves, they also remember many other examples of that bad thing that they've done in the past.
Eights say that insight can act like a jack-in-the-box with a shocking punch. They open the box of an opinion where they believe themselves to be totally right, and the fact they have been wrong is so startling that they move into battle stance attention and cannot think of any compromise to cushion the insight. What was totally right has become totally wrong; and the need to punish wrongdoings is immediately turned against the self. 
How Enneagram Types Pay Attention


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## Bunny (Jul 11, 2015)

@Animal
Hi =) just going to try an put down how I am compared to 3 vs 4 here in relation to your other thread.

First of all right here -


> for 3, the need to be admired or else they feel like they don't exist or are "nobody;" for 4, the need to be perceived as authentic or else they feel like they are "insignificant" and without an identity, which feels like not existing at all.


I definitely relate to 4 with this, I don't need to be admired (although I enjoy it) but I do feel a need to be seen as authentic.
In the sense that I am quite honest and upfront about myself always and if someone doesn't think I am being honest.
It really bothers me. I mean I'm a private person so, I'm not going to reveal all of myself all of the time but I'm still me.
I do always wish to be seen as me.
I'm not private out of fear it's just I want to be seen a certain way so to the public I like to keep up a certain image.
How I like to portray myself and how others' portray me in different environments.

Like okay, if I was going to a friends' house for dinner, I would try to be polite and stay proper.
I am a polite person (to an extent) and everything but I try to be extra so in the presence of such people an situations.

I do care very much about my outwards appearance in certain ways.
Like even if I'm just going to the drug store I will put on a little makeup but I am still trying to just show off myself.
Only using natural makeup tones that blend in with my own tones.
I rarely use products on my hair except after I get out of the shower I will treat it will hair oil.
I try very hard to keep my skin and hair as healthy as possible.
As far as clothing goes I prefer jeans as t-shirts mostly.
This is me (how I dress that is) on most days -

* *















Of course I will dress nicer on a date for example.
I still probably will not wear anything _too_ fancy, like a dress. 
Only because that's just not me and I prefer pants or possibly a skirt.
Unless I'm going some place more "elegant", like going to the opera or whatever.
OR if it's someone really special to me or a special occasion.

I do actually really like wearing lingerie, stockings and high-heels in the bedroom.
But outside of the bedroom you will not see me in such items, most of the time.
I think it's because I feel like the bedroom is the funnest place to show off and be the most "special" with your SO.

Although I'm not as open with all of my flaws _except_ with those I care deeply for. Those that really matter to me.
I do want a guy I am with to see every bit of me though and understand it and accept it.

I'm decently open about my less-than-personal flaws. I mean I have no problem saying I can be vain, lazy, stubborn, thoughtless and so on.

I do want that special person to see me for me. It is what I most desire.
I will show all of my feelings to those people and it will be almost too openly.

I do like to think I know my true self but I also question my type and in that way I suppose I am questioning myself.
Which I accept.

I do have a need to be desired but it's mostly just by those I admire and respect.
I don't ever seem to care much if people other than that do not.

I think partly why I am so "selective" in love is that I want the most authentic love, the most raw, the most pure.
(This could just be Sx coming out, I'm not sure).

I don't ever try to be different and if I like something trendy then I just like it and I'm cool with it.
I never try to like something just because it's unique but if I do then I just do.

I would say I'm open-minded when it comes to anything I like or dislike.
I'm not someone who seeks out anything because it is different, I only seek out what I can connect with and be real with.

I'm not trying to be normal or original, I really just need to be me.

I don't care how much I like someone, if they don't like me for me then it won't happen.

I see myself in a certain way but I try hard to be open to others' views on me.
Even if I disagree with it, I try to see it from their POV.
Because I know not everyone is going to see me the same way or know me as personally as another.
It happens with everyone in life.

When I first got there though I wasn't as open-minded, I admit that but I am now trying to be better about it.
I used to scoff at ideas of me not being an ISTP.

I think I mostly search for myself because I have that need to know exactly who I am and not question it but I'm not sure that will ever happen with me.
I don't think I'm ever going to be 100% about myself on anything internal.

I used to study Astrology because it was another way for me to learn about myself.
I don't believe that it is all true anymore but the subject itself I do still find interesting.

I love showing off my talents but I'm okay if someone is not a fan of them.
I just enjoy sharing these parts of myself with the world.
Again, it is an ego-boost if someone does think I am talented for them and I am always appreciative of it.

I may be disappointed if no one appreciates a talent of mine but I don't get angry over it or anything.

Because I like what I do and I have fun doing it and that is what matters to me the most in that aspect.


That's really all I can think of atm, I hope it helps!


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Amaranthine said:


> I feel like I relate to the concept of 259 more than any 2 should, especially 2w3)
> It's really hard to explain atm, I'll try later but like...I already said in instincts thread I think, _the world is heavy_ and on some level I don't feel like what I get from it is worth what I have to give to even begin to deal with it, and it feels like other people just do things so effortlessly.
> The sad part is I that I actually type as heart type, I know I need love, but it feels like to everyone else it just comes,2s, 3s, doesn't matter, they get it as a consequence of being fully immersed in others, or in their image, they are blind to themselves like I wish to be, and I'm just blatantly aware of what's inside but am not truly concerned with it like a 4 would be either.
> And I guess 7 might not make sense because something about me makes me feel like I can't be a frustration type, I talked to someone once about how I probably lack real frustration in a way, but that's of course very vague reasoning.
> ...


I moved this here since it was on another person's typing thread and everyone kept apologizing haha. And since you mentioned the posts about image types.

Which parts didn't you relate to?


(Also I can delete this quote if you don't want it here. Let me know. )




Also @Wytch will respond asap.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Animal said:


> I moved this here since it was on another person's typing thread and everyone kept apologizing haha. And since you mentioned the posts about image types.
> 
> Which parts didn't you relate to?
> 
> ...


Thank you for moving it here!

I'll respond later, I have to read it again and get my thoughts in order
It's complicated :frustrating:


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## Bunny (Jul 11, 2015)

@Animal no worries but thanks =) just whenever you have the time.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Amaranthine said:


> Thank you for moving it here!
> 
> I'll respond later, I have to read it again and get my thoughts in order
> It's complicated :frustrating:


Sure  no rush. It could either be that my description is flawed, or I didn't explain it well, or.. if other image types relate to it but you don't, I guess that could mean something (though we do have all opposite functions, for whatever that's worth, so it could also be that my descriptions are Fi-centric..)

I don't mean to be Fi centric, I try to get to the core of things.. but I might be missing something. Also if it's about 2, I'm not a 2 so maybe your reaction will help me get it better.. unless it looks like your reaction screams "not an image type."


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

This is good:



Paradigm said:


> I started with what I know best
> 
> *- 6s desperately want and need to trust something external to themselves.*
> Nope! While trust is crucial to type 6, it's generally in the form of constantly trying to discover what is trustworthy or not. This doesn't mean they cling to beliefs, but that they _examine _beliefs. Many 6's belief systems come from multiple sources, not one almighty source. And many see themselves as the only trustworthy thing, which means they rely on themselves before anything external.


^ This rings true. I would add that since 6s distrust everything, they seem to end up seeking out whatever is least-untrustworthy. This leads to them tending to be conformists, because, even though they may acknowledge problems with conformism, it ultimately seems less risky than all the alternatives.



> *- 6s are easily fooled and willingly ignore problems.*
> Actually, 6 is the most skeptical type out of all nine. This means 6s commonly spot problems before anyone else, and will often point them out in order to fix them. 6s are generally driven to solve problems, not ignore them.


^ 6s do seem to be prone to making errors in judgment. Too much focusing on minor risks can obscure what is truly important when making a decision.



> *- 6s are paranoid babies.*
> No one type has a monopoly on an emotion. Most 6s are unaware of their anxiety because it's always been with them. A lot of 6s will claim they're never afraid! Furthermore, a 6's anxiety is existential, which means it's intangible and hard to grasp. Any person who has pathological, clinical anxiety is _probably not_ a 6.


^ This is the most interesting part. Not naming names, there are some people on PerC who are clearly 6s but adamantly claim they're never afraid, thus they can't be 6s.

FWIW, I think 5 is the most paranoid type. 5s have a greater tendency to lose touch with reality and live in a world of paranoia.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

@Animal 
I'll answer more fully later, if necessary, but one thing that's obviously confusing me is lack of awareness.

From what I understand, you said that:
-2s mistake their loving self-image for who they really are, and are unaware of their need for love
-3s mistake their successful image for their real selves and aren't aware of what's making them create that image
Not you exact words but close I think?
You also once said that 3s can envy 8s because they think 8s are stronger, don't care what others think and such, it was a long time ago.
And it surprised me, because I typed as a 3 then and like...if I ever typed as 8 (I never did), not caring about what people think would be the last thing on my mind. I'd probably be reading Chestnut's sx 8 description, the part where Kathy the sexual 8 speaks and thinking "OMG that's so me :lovekitty: "

Or like, I posted in FT yesterday, how when I was younger I wanted to be famous, I adored some celebrities, watched their every move, dreamt about going to America to find them, loved watching movie and music awards (live) because then I knew exactly what they were doing and feeling at that very moment lol)
And I really wanted to be famous, so people would feel the same way about me. I remember a friend asking me once "Money or fame?" and I immediately said fame, still don't get who'd choose money 
Also, I thought yesterday about Bowie and his view on fame and similar views (also some other bitchy Bowie quotes) and I just hate it when celebrities are like that, fame is what's feeding both their bodies and egos, how do they dare to speak against it? Imo people like that don't deserve fame, they don't deserve fans.
(Of course, I don't mean complaining about privacy and such although that can be annoying too coming from some people)


That's not all I wanted to say but like...based on what I wrote, how can I be _unaware_? I am aware I might have a distorted view on some things but I am definitely neither under delusion that I'm very selfless (in usual sense of the word) and a saint or that I'm doing things for the sake of them or for image without being aware of emotions. Does that make sense?
I mean I wanted to be famous but I didn't think "Poor people they'll have no good music unless I start singing :sad: " (2? Do kinda wish I could say that though :laughing: ) or had a plan on how to become the best and therefore famous without really thinking about what's pulling me towards fame, killing my real self in the process (3)


(This was probay more So-ish than I actually am)


It is a very Beta view on the thing, so might be true that you see things in a more Fi/Si way. 
But it's also possible you're exaggerating something a bit for the sake of the point and I'm exaggerating it even more in my mind 
I mean it feels _impossible_ to be unaware, in sense that I described in the beginning.

@Phoenix Virtue that quote about 2 that I can't remember atm (SheWolf's thread), not sure what it's about exactly but it reminded me, I can I guess forget my needs in the moment, I guess also get caught up in Fe-Se stuff and like, do things because they feel right in the moment, impulsively make promises and such because it feels like I really mean it, things like that.
And I also generally was always really proud of some things that might fall under ignoring own needs, like valued not having strong ideals and such (so that if a mob boss with good heart deep down ends up wanting to marry me, I can go guilt free. More reasons but they are all similar), or like...honestly just not eating all the time is so difficult and feels like a sacrifice, the one I'm glad to make but still. I generally think I often feel like I go out of my way to do some things that people normally just do without even thinking)


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I feel like I keep skipping my point because it feels so obvious to me 


Like, basically, I read 2, 3 and 4 descriptions and feel no shame.
But I also just don't understand what I'm supposed to be ashamed of?
I think I've seen some 2s and/or 3s at 7 forum and I just wonder...why would they prefer to be 7s? 
I am 'fun' as it is, my own personality and motivations and such make me fun, I don't need to identify with some 7 stereotype to be that.
I guess I can even understand it if it's based on some stereotype, but like...why would someone rather have motivations that make them a 7 rather than motivations that make them a 2 or a 3?
Why would a 4 be ashamed of shame and envy?
I know I'm not...
So it just genuinely confuses me.
I am ashamed of many things but not that.
My shame is in things like 
"*I generally think I often feel like I go out of my way to do some things that people normally just do without even thinking)"
Because like...I'll do something, say I'm often proud of being adaptable to people, I often think "I'm such a chameleon!!!" and then 2 years later realize I can actually be pretty unpleasant even when I don't mean it and like...everyone is a chameleon to a degree, and I thought that was my main selling point.
Or that post you quoted here @Animal
Or just my qualities, my appearance and such.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Wytch said:


> @*Animal* no worries but thanks =) just whenever you have the time.


 Obviously, I am no ""Animal. :kitteh: In order to accurately type anyone, you need a lot more information but based on what you`ve posted; you seem like 4 core to me.



Wytch said:


> *I'm not private out of fear it's just I want to be seen a certain way* so to the public I like to keep up a certain image.
> How I like to portray myself and how others' portray me in different environments.


5s are private out of fear; fear of being engulfed and overwhelmed. A 5, in contrast to a 4; will prefer to be private regardless of how they are seen because for a 5; it`s primarily about *not* being seen. A 4 doesn`t wish to be viewed in a negative light because that increases their shame; a 5 doesn`t want to be viewed, period. 5s sin is avarice and one of the ways that can manifest is by the 5 holding on for dear life, bits and pieces of themselves; that`s why they often seem so pulled back like they`re trying to hide - trying to avoid being seen. Even a positive reception can unnerve a 5; if the basis for that reception is involuntary.


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Amaranthine said:


> I feel like I keep skipping my point because it feels so obvious to me
> 
> 
> Like, basically, I read 2, 3 and 4 descriptions and feel no shame.
> But I also just don't understand what I'm supposed to be ashamed of?


I think pride and shame are at opposite ends of a continuum:

shame +----------------------+ pride

So 2s may identify more with pride, and 4s may identify more with shame, but it's the same continuum.



> I think I've seen some 2s and/or 3s at 7 forum and I just wonder...why would they prefer to be 7s?
> I am 'fun' as it is, my own personality and motivations and such make me fun, I don't need to identify with some 7 stereotype to be that.
> I guess I can even understand it if it's based on some stereotype, but like...why would someone rather have motivations that make them a 7 rather than motivations that make them a 2 or a 3?
> Why would a 4 be ashamed of shame and envy?
> ...


I think that is a key point for 2s... most people talk about things like authenticity as good things, but 2s are inverted wrt a lot of their values. 2s value adaptability instead.



> Or that post you quoted here @Animal
> Or just my qualities, my appearance and such.


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## Bunny (Jul 11, 2015)

Chesire Tower said:


> Obviously, I am no ""Animal. :kitteh: In order to accurately type anyone, you need a lot more information but based on what you`ve posted; you seem like 4 core to me.


I certainly don't mind others giving me their opinion.
I appreciate any help and I guess I could fill out one of those forms if necessary.
Maybe I'll just wait to see what Animal says first.

I just dread those forms XD they're so long and my attention-span can suck with such things.



> 5s are private out of fear; fear of being engulfed and overwhelmed. A 5, in contrast to a 4; will prefer to be private regardless of how they are seen because for a 5; it`s primarily about *not* being seen. A 4 doesn`t wish to be viewed in a negative light because that increases their shame; a 5 doesn`t want to be viewed, period. 5s sin is avarice and one of the ways that can manifest is by the 5 holding on for dear life, bits and pieces of themselves; that`s why they often seem so pulled back like they`re trying to hide - trying to avoid being seen. Even a positive reception can unnerve a 5; if the basis for that reception is involuntary.



See, I've thought of 4 as my core before but after I start reading about Sexual 5s and how 4ish they appear.
I stuck with 5 because it sounded so much like me.
The thing is I can be extremely private and then other times I do wish to be seen entirely.
I'm not sure why exactly but it's just how I am.
I don't mind the spotlight as long as I'm okay with being there.
I'm quite introverted for an ESTP and I also thought that had to do with 5.
I enjoy my solitude a lot but I guess I wouldn't say I isolate myself out of fear.

I could go on if you wanted.
It does give me something to think about in the meantime.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

nburns said:


> I think pride and shame are at opposite ends of a continuum:
> 
> shame +----------------------+ pride
> 
> ...


That does make sense, 4s can be prideful though, and 2s can feel ashamed, but in the end of the day 4 is envy and 2 is pride.


The adaptability though, I guess it's 3 too?
It seems like w3 part of me)
And I think some 2s would value authenticity and such.
I mean even I do value...expressing myself I guess, after all 90% of my posts are me talking about me, which could also be Fe+Se, but I don't have focus on authenticity and I'd rather be called something like adaptable than unapologetically myself, unless like, I wanted to be unapologetically myself for that person :tongue:


Anyway, speaking of pride, I guess my point is, finally...you can't have me without my motivations, and like, if you love me you should love that I want to be loved by you, because you wouldn't if I didn't, if I didn't care more than other women. 
Anything more selfless than that feels impossible :/


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## nburns (Dec 4, 2015)

Amaranthine said:


> The adaptability though, I guess it's 3 too?
> It seems like w3 part of me)


2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive. They overlap.



> And I think some 2s would value authenticity and such.
> I mean even I do value...expressing myself I guess, after all 90% of my posts are me talking about me, which could also be Fe+Se, but I don't have focus on authenticity and I'd rather be called something like adaptable than unapologetically myself, unless like, I wanted to be unapologetically myself for that person :tongue:


:laughing:



> Anyway, speaking of pride, I guess my point is, finally...you can't have me without my motivations, and like, if you love me you should love that I want to be loved by you, because you wouldn't if I didn't, if I didn't care more than other women.
> Anything more selfless than that feels impossible :/


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Keep meaning to respond to you @Amaranthine

Anyways, changing type to 6w7, I think that's my main thing, idk, I was just realizing how important to me it is to have a favorite thing in a day, something to look forward to, otherwise I don't have anything

ANd also just, I just want to know exactly what to do, I'd happily be pre-ball Cinderella but it kills me to know that I don't know what t odo, where to go, there's an element of 2 in that my favorite thing in each day would ideally be talking to people and all tha and...










(This character was not a 2 btw)but neither of those things are ever going to happen and I'd be so happy if I just had a place, a position, I don't have to be wanted, I just have to be 'secure' I guess, and when did I ever do anything, to try to make people love me?

Typing fast, don't have much time, ignore typos
Anyways, explanation of current typing


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

@Phoenix Virtue 

That was the thing that made me type you as a 6 when you were in Rome, because you said something similar, but...



> idk, I was just realizing how important to me it is to have a favorite thing in a day, something to look forward to, otherwise I don't have anything


Can relate to this


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Amaranthine said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=164034" target="_blank">Phoenix Virtue</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> 
> ...


The thing you quoted is more 7 than anything, don't think it's possible for me (or you tbh) to be a core Seven, but it seems to be a head-type-ish thing?

Want to elaborate a bit, I was rushing when I was making that post.

Like...what started this off was really stupid, my favorite little spot to sit in the backyard was ruined by someone taking down the tree there, I was so sad, not just a little sad, but so upset, I was actually crying, because that was my favorite part of the day, sitting outside, and then I realized I didn't have any new favorite part of the day, and...

idk, I realized I have a lot of self-pity, and maybe it's pride...but it feels head-type-ish, I feel like...my favorite part of a day should be something better than sitting outside, and I want to blame others for it, like someone else should be doing something for me, should have already done something for me...but yeah, I relate to that strategizing, like just today, I've made myself interested in Game of Thrones again, and I made brownies, so I guess I'm excited about GoT and eating those brownies, but like...

Other people, they don't have that, their life doesn't have that, it's something that always surprises me I guess, people wake up and they go to work and they think about what they're supposed to do but I'm constantly thinking 'what will make this day worthwhile' or even just livable, but for me it's all about having some string of lights to carry me along until...the next string of lights. And if I'm not at a light, then it's like my life is over, if I'm bored or something it's like the world is over, I can't take a step to the next light.

Like I remember in high school or something, just feeling like...I was just waiting to die, just trying to find something to carry me along until I died, I just needed something to do until then. And I didn't feel like for a long time, forgot I ever thought that way, but that's basically it for me. 

And...obviously, there's this idea in my mind, that true love or something will suddenly come along and knock me into existence, into having something to care about besides having enough money to buy sweets and getting outside and having some interesting show to watch, I don't even think that < is my real existence, I imagine that it's all about the love that's going to magically come along and wake me up like Sleeping Beauty but I've let myself become so ugly and even not just physically, that it won't happen, I'm not even anyone anymore.

For some reason I'm associating this song (which seems really head-typish to me) with this feeling, keeps popping into my head:






"Cause you can't avoid the sentiment that echoes in your ear
Saying love will stop the pain, saying love will stop the fear
Do you believe? You must believe!"

But idk, I'm really tired (again, somehow) and idk what I'm saying, I guess I feel like I might be mixing up heart type for something else. And 6 doesn't quite feel right, it's difficult for me to doubt and I don't value it...7 is strange to me too. But 2...I feel like if I were a 2 I'd be married by now, or something, instead I keep waiting for something, I live my whole life like I think there's some bus coming for me. 

Like...ugh, idk. Hard to explain :/


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@*Phoenix Virtue*
Been listening to that song, thinking it seems 7ish. (I mean, it feels 7 to me)

And the things you're talking about seems familiar (to how I can often feel), though I'm pretty tired atm as well.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Ok, I'm tired and confused; I feel like we're opposites here but I've no clue what it means
Like you're more blatant about things I have but maybe don't naturally have or something...it's something I admire about you, just can't put my finger on the different quality!

For instance...I originally typed as 1 and that did make sense, it was partly because I didn't know enough about Enneagram, but...it also made sense, just that I wasn't a 1, I was never a meta-image type the way you are, I guess)) If anything I was constantly reframing image things in a 1ish way, probably believing I cared about perfection and truth and other 1ish things more than I really did on a real level. Maybe it's a difference of wings; I can maybe see you doing something similar with 3. 

(I also excessively (probably) idealize 1s; I can't separate 'type that strives for perfection' from 'perfect type'. But it's not me.)










(This gif means nothing, it's just Ned Stark, a 1)



Amaranthine said:


> It is a very Beta view on the thing, so might be true that you see things in a more Fi/Si way.
> But it's also possible you're exaggerating something a bit for the sake of the point and I'm exaggerating it even more in my mind
> I mean it feels _impossible_ to be unaware, in sense that I described in the beginning.


This I relate to though



> @Phoenix Virtue that quote about 2 that I can't remember atm (SheWolf's thread), not sure what it's about exactly but it reminded me, I can I guess forget my needs in the moment, I guess also get caught up in Fe-Se stuff and like, do things because they feel right in the moment, impulsively make promises and such because it feels like I really mean it, things like that.
> And I also generally was always really proud of some things that might fall under ignoring own needs, like valued not having strong ideals and such (so that if a mob boss with good heart deep down ends up wanting to marry me, I can go guilt free. More reasons but they are all similar)



:laughing:

This is so different from me! 
I think about marrying mob bosses with good hearts too, sometimes, but I assume I'll just keep my morals separately, or...there's a 'clannish moral' switch in my mind I could turn on, so it never feels like a problem) I imagine sacrificing things for my morals more often...I used to frequently have some daydream that I'd be engaged to Tom Hiddleston and then say something that was terrible for PR and then the media would tell me that I had to take that back, break off the engagement, or else they'd boycott him, so I'd break off the engagement and sneak off to a cottage in France, thus 'sacrificing' myself for him) But like half the daydream was him being sad and desperately looking for me so...))

maybe Fi though



> or like...honestly just not eating all the time is so difficult and feels like a sacrifice, the one I'm glad to make but still. I generally think I often feel like I go out of my way to do some things that people normally just do without even thinking)


relate, though I no longer try not to eat all the time :sad: too difficult, too little hope
but the feeling that some things that other people normally do are way harder for me, feels like pride though)


Amaranthine said:


> I feel like I keep skipping my point because it feels so obvious to me
> 
> 
> Like, basically, I read 2, 3 and 4 descriptions and feel no shame.
> ...


This is again where I feel I'm different from you, maybe not as much as I thought the first time I read through this

I mean, I have a lot of shame, so much shame, but not much guilt, not for normal things

And not for "I go out of my way...other people do without thinking", I'm almost proud of that (idk if 2 pride or not)
I'm not ashamed of my emotions, I'm ashamed of...so much, but like myself really, my smallness, how I'm not legendary, but human, that I can be ugly without being monstrous or do something dumb without it being a Fatal Flaw

Or there's all this other stuff but it's all to do with me, how I'm seen, real shame is far away from me

To me it seems 2 in you

Probably 2 in me too but I'm less sure.


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Sorry, another post, just want to clarify something (I'm so tired, I have no idea if I'm making sense at all)

It's like I have this thing I aspire to which other people do naturally and for some reason I'm always trying to oversell it in myself even though most people dislike this quality

It's like...in Pride and Prejudice, Charlotte Lucas getting engaged to Mr. Collins because it was sensible, that idea is so like...cool to me I guess) And just the idea of marrying for money or doing anything for money) I love the idea) And for most people it's this fault, but for me it's this thing I brag about) I loved to tell people that I'd marry for money, even though I really, really wouldn't, I loved the idea of being more attracted to a doctor or lawyer or something, trying to discretely find out about peoples' prospects) but it's not a real motivation for me))

not just in the romantic sphere, I briefly had an engineering major and I was so proud, people would ask me why and I'd be like "Because the salary is high and I can meet guys with good salaries!" and people would respond like "Wow that's really shallow; you should probably have something invested in it" and I'd be like ":kitteh:", so proud of myself, felt like the fact that they weren't wise to the ways of the world or something, made me better) I value, without valuing, the idea of blatantly going after money, and finding sensible solutions) And I feel like the people 'in the know' will be like 'ah yes, she is sensible' even though I don't want to be sensible for practical or image reasons)

feel like this is related for some reason

edit: I mean like it was so complete, I'd advise my friends on their romantic interests based on their prospects, I'd always bring that up as something to be aware of, for anything I'd just be so proud of myself if it seemed like my object was some money-ish thing) But...yeah) Even in board games or something) It's strange)


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

A lot to respond to, some things I relate to from what I've seen but I have a headache right now so I'll read everything and respond later, hopefully today.

Btw made me happy, now I know I have some interesting posts to read in the evening) @Phoenix Virtue


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## Spastic D. Muscipula (Jul 6, 2016)

*Type Comparisons &amp; Common Misconceptions*

What is the most common type 9 misconception?


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

Spastic D. Muscipula said:


> What is the most common type 9 misconception?


Not sure if it's the most common misconception, but it's a big one that kept me guessing whether or not I'm a 9 for a long time. It's pretty much the idea that all 9s are totally emotionally dead and always express themselves in some monotone voice. There's this compilation of Enneagram typings of celebrities with videos, and most of the 9s (without sx-first or -second at least, and sometimes even with developed sx) sound so boring and totally dead.

But I've seen that a decent number of 9s, regardless of instinctual stacking, can be very demonstrative and in touch with positive emotions, even over-doing them sometimes. I know that I'm like this. What I have trouble with is expressing "negative" emotions like sadness and anger. I just can't and they make me uncomfortable when I feel them myself.


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## Spastic D. Muscipula (Jul 6, 2016)

*Type Comparisons &amp; Common Misconceptions*

Is 5w6 common for INTJs?


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## Spastic D. Muscipula (Jul 6, 2016)

Views from Kanto said:


> Not sure if it's the most common misconception, but it's a big one that kept me guessing whether or not I'm a 9 for a long time. It's pretty much the idea that all 9s are totally emotionally dead and always express themselves in some monotone voice. There's this compilation of Enneagram typings of celebrities with videos, and most of the 9s (without sx-first or -second at least, and sometimes even with developed sx) sound so boring and totally dead.
> 
> But I've seen that a decent number of 9s, regardless of instinctual stacking, can be very demonstrative and in touch with positive emotions, even over-doing them sometimes. I know that I'm like this. What I have trouble with is expressing "negative" emotions like sadness and anger. I just can't and they make me uncomfortable when I feel them myself.


I am the same way about my negative emotions, I have a lot of nine qualities and that mixed with my 5 makes for a interesting and uncomfortable situation when I do get in a state of sadness. 

For a long while I believed that I was a 9, I retook the test this morning and got 5w6 which I guess is very fitting for an INTJ, but I never found that it meant monotone or boring. Just that I like peace and harmony with people in my life. Maybe I am a bit different because I am a sx so I do have emotion- at least for my significant other- but I never knew that people perceived 9s to be boring. 

Thank you for the time and response


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I imagine sacrificing things for my morals more often..


Yeah, can't relate for reasons I keep talking about every time I switch to ESTP)
Also, love talking about my lack of morals and teaching others to be like me)
Similar to what you described in your second post.
Although...hm, I think I talked about it, I'm more judgmental than I look or even think I am, in a way, it's hard to describe)
But like, I have these rules I don't really think about, maybe a bit anti-7, everything done just for fun or happiness is bad but if it's done out of some strong emotion or for someone, good or bad, it's not. Or like...things done by accident=bad (not always ofc, but for example I'd rather hurt someone on purpose than not on purpose)
And some people just cause a "can't be fixed anyway" reaction. 
Just hard to know what I consider wrong before I see it.



> I'm not ashamed of my emotions, I'm ashamed of...so much, but like myself really, my smallness, how I'm not legendary, but human, that I can be ugly without being monstrous or do something dumb without it being a Fatal Flaw
> 
> Or there's all this other stuff but it's all to do with me, how I'm seen, real shame is far away from me
> 
> ...


I don't see some huge difference but idk, I mean it's also about me in a way, in my case.

And I think I get what you mean, like...maybe not exactly, but for example when I need to go to the store and my hair is dirty or something, grandma tells me "But no one will be looking at you!" and I just don't believe it because ofc everyone's looking at me, but if it's true it's kinda sad, not comforting)
I mean I'd rather the whole world be shocked by my dirty hair than walk around like just some girl)



> And not for "I go out of my way...other people do without thinking", I'm almost proud of that (idk if 2 pride or not)


Hm I am too in a way
However, I'm not sometimes when I like...there's some realization I make and then I'm not)
Idk what exactly, not happening atm)
I think it's kinda related to what I said in my final point, like, it's just caring, for example in a way I'm proud of my BDD no matter how much it hurts.



> Ok, I'm tired and confused; I feel like we're opposites here but I've no clue what it means
> Like you're more blatant about things I have but maybe don't naturally have or something...it's something I admire about you, just can't put my finger on the different quality!


I'm not sure what exactly you mean but I think I get it, somehow
I guess it could be w3
All image types are image types but I think 2w3 and 3w2 would be the most blatant in a way.



Also yeah, marrying for money thing)
I was always open about it, and I also felt wise about it and like I know how to do life and such.
And I had a "I'm gonna be a lawyer" phase, just kept perpetuating lawyer stereotypes OR said I might just find myself a future lawyer at law school)))
edit: remembered, I don't think I always said it but like...I often waited for people to see through my "I'm a lawyer" act and tell me I'm better for marrying a lawyer :laughing:


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Wytch said:


> I certainly don't mind others giving me their opinion.
> I appreciate any help and I guess I could fill out one of those forms if necessary.
> Maybe I'll just wait to see what Animal says first.
> 
> ...


Sure, the 5 vs. 4 distinction - especially the 5w4 vs. the 4w5 type intrigues me more than almost anything else about the Enneagram. Anyway, I wasn't referring specifically the type quiz. It can take a very long time, to get your type right. Ultimately, it is you, who must always be the final arbitrator of your type. I relate strongly to both types but i care far more about ideas, than I do feelings and 4 cores love to dig deep; 5s are extremely preoccupied with conserving their energy and find that to be a drain on their resources whereas 4s by and large, relish it.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Found this while googling enneagram misconceptions...
might be a bit of a rant because I am so annoyed. I am sorry if I upset anyone, but I just need to let it out.

I am on a typology group on slack, and a bunch of people started talking about how "4s want to be unique and different and defy expectations and also appear mysterious." I was very vocal about being annoyed by that because I can't relate to that at all, and I would hate anyone to think that's what a 4 is about. I have lived my life as an unhealthy 4 and there is nothing vaguely romantic or hipster and "cool" about it, I am so sick of people talking about 4s that way. One of them was also super annoying in that he presumes to know my subtype and thinks I am sexual 4, or think he knows me better than I know myself apparently. When I got annoyed and angry he was all superior like "I will let someone else deal with this" because I objected to him saying rebelliousness or defiance of norms had anything to do with 4. 

4 is not about being "unique" atleast not in the colloquial sense. If your very definition of self, before you could understand the word "unique" is based around the feeling that you are simply not as good enough - and therefore defective than other people then "unique" will make no sense to you because for 4s their image means a LOT and "being special" has little to no meaning. I imagine people who have the luxury to play around with their image in that way - "just experimenting being special" aren't very attached to it to begin with. Yes there's the ego attachment and 4s should realize that too but still - I HATE 4s being talked about like that. Because it sounds like some superficial bullshit.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

Also maybe controversial opinion but I don't think a 4 has to be _consciously _doing either of these two things to be a 4:

1) Being authentic
2) Being hateful

I emphasize consciously because I am still trying to see whether or not I was just doing them on a visceral level without realizing the word that goes along with it. I will admit that people have said I sound "hateful" specially towards my parents and I didn't think so at all or I wasn't aware of it. Sometimes when I am more aware I can see my diary entries being hateful and envious (I believe those two go hand in hand) but I certainly don't believe you have to be _aware and comfortable_ in your hatred to be a 4 @Animal.
Plus the subtype descriptions will help too, since sexual 4 is the mad and hateful 4 while social not so much. Doesn't mean the feelings aren't there, it just isn't part of their persona.


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## Quakers (Nov 15, 2016)

I think there are many misconceptions about Type 8.
One of them is the wings of the 8 - seven, and nine, and how they augment the core fixation.
It is almost as if enneagram theorists mix up 8w7 with 8w9.

Type 7 and type 9 are, I suppose, similair types; 7 is avoiding pain and deprivation, 9 is avoiding conflict and discord. Like passive and active versions of the same thing.

Now, it seems to me that very often, 8w7 is seen as the hyper-aggressive, violent and sociopathic wing formula, while 8w9 is seen as nice, likeable, "firm but gentle" - that type 7 serves to amplify Eight traits while type 9 serves to soften the edges and make the core Eight characteristics more palatable. Completely backwards at major points.

This must be because of how type Nine is typecast as this peaceful and pacifist "Peacemaker". That's what they call it, "the Peacemaker" (lol) - as if an *integrated* Nine is the _default/average_ Nine. 
Unless in a state of integration, Nines are not primarily concerned creating peace for other people; they care about maintaining their *own inner peace*, which they do by mentally disassociating from their feelings, and deadening impulses - maintaining contentment with themselves at all costs. Apathy is a good word to sum up their behavior.
(Type Three, for example, when in a state of disintegration will completely cut off from their feelings, like a psychopath, does whatever it takes to succeed/win)

Type Seven wants to avoid negativity and have fun, and experience positive states of environment and feeling. They can be very anxious and heady types, they are always planning and moving toward a way out of a "bad situation". If _Apathy_ suits Nine, then *Anxiety* suits Seven.

Our core type in question, Eight, is a type that wants autonomy to act on their own without being limited by the emotional weakness of themselves or the people around them. They are aggressive in slicing through the chains of "convention", "proper" or "nice" to achieve what they think is truth, fair and just. Let's use Aggression here.

A type *Eight with a nine wing* would be _*Autonomy* supported by *Apathy*_. They are heavy, hard-hitting and assertive in imposing their will, and then thanks to the 9-wing, able to support this behavior by denying and disassociating from the chaos the wreak upon others around them.

A type *Eight with a seven wing* would be *Autonomy*_ supported by *Anxiety*_. They are active, expansive and imaginative, but due to the anxious and flighty seven wing which is unable to hold grudges or maintain attention toward any particular goal or conflict for as long as the 8w9, they support their endeavors remaining in good-will with those around and maintaining a positive environment, 

The 9-wing lends to the 8 the ability to absorb or dismiss *massive* amounts of abuse and criticism from their environment, while the 7-wing has the exact opposite effect. (but in turn bestows charm, intellect and creativity.)

It is the nine-wing which amplifies strength and toughness of the Eight by offering defense to offense, making them remarkably tough and grounded, and the seven wing which dilutes it by gauging the desire for control and intensity with a compulsion to avoid anything too painful or negative.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Ivy said:


> Not sure if it's the most common misconception, but it's a big one that kept me guessing whether or not I'm a 9 for a long time. It's pretty much the idea that all 9s are totally emotionally dead and always express themselves in some monotone voice. There's this compilation of Enneagram typings of celebrities with videos, and most of the 9s (without sx-first or -second at least, and sometimes even with developed sx) sound so boring and totally dead.
> 
> But I've seen that a decent number of 9s, regardless of instinctual stacking, can be very demonstrative and in touch with positive emotions, even over-doing them sometimes. I know that I'm like this. What I have trouble with is expressing "negative" emotions like sadness and anger. I just can't and they make me uncomfortable when I feel them myself.


 9s can and do express negative emotions as well. You have a 2 fix right?


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

Animal said:


> 9s can and do express negative emotions as well. You have a 2 fix right?


Oh yeah, they can! I think it takes some pushing for many of us, but some do it well. I think that I have a 2 fix, but I'm not sure. Curious what you mean by that though, I'm not connecting the dots.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Ivy said:


> Oh yeah, they can! I think it takes some pushing for many of us, but some do it well. I think that I have a 2 fix, but I'm not sure. Curious what you mean by that though, I'm not connecting the dots.


 Bjork is a 974. Her songs are clear expressions of her anger and sadness and loss and broken heart etc. She also lived in my area and I know people who worked with her, and she is apparently difficult, picky, complaining etc; and I have observed with my own eyes that she is a brooder. But then you can't deny the 9 when you hear the Holy Love in her songs. 

My husband is also a 974 and he's the same way; he's more emotionally intense and expressive than I am. That Fe though.


2s (and 2 fixers) can feel negative emotions like anyone else, but some 2s may be less comfortable expressing them or burdening others with them.


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## Shadow Tag (Jan 11, 2014)

Animal said:


> Bjork is a 974. Her songs are clear expressions of her anger and sadness and loss and broken heart etc. She also lived in my area and I know people who worked with her, and she is apparently difficult, picky, complaining etc; and I have observed with my own eyes that she is a brooder. But then you can't deny the 9 when you hear the Holy Love in her songs.
> 
> My husband is also a 974 and he's the same way; he's more emotionally intense and expressive than I am. That Fe though.
> 
> ...


Gotcha! I need to listen Bjork more. She's on my list of artists to listen to more. But from past listens, I can see that, yeah. :] 

Yeah, I've noticed that he's like that. I have to admit, I admire his being able to call shit out here on PerC. I strive for the ability to do that. And write quality stuff at the same time.


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## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Ivy said:


> Gotcha! I need to listen Bjork more. She's on my list of artists to listen to more. But from past listens, I can see that, yeah. :]
> 
> Yeah, I've noticed that he's like that. I have to admit, I admire his being able to call shit out here on PerC. I strive for the ability to do that. And write quality stuff at the same time.


 He is very eloquent


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## Daeva (Apr 18, 2011)

Animal said:


> He is very eloquent


I may have my moments, but right now I'm not sure what to say xD


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## Danger_noodle (Dec 2, 2020)

Lord Bullingdon said:


> HA! What idiot says that???
> 
> It sounds more like the 9s to play obtuse and pretend problems aren't there, if you want to peg such a behavior on any type. Six would be the last I'd ever associate with that.
> 
> To be more constructive, can someone do 7 vs 9? I've read lots of classifications and could easily write my own, but I am interested in others' perspectives.


Says what? Stereotypes you read about them or your actual experiences with 9s? Please think before making such an incredibly rude, ignorant assumption about them. Not all 9s avoid fixing problems and are perfectly capable of solving them.


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