# Let's Debate the Enneagram Types of Fictional Characters.



## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> Some examples I can think of:
> Hannibal Lectar (Hannibal):8w7 Sp/Sx 853. (Many says 5w4 Sx/So,I disagree)
> Sherlock Holmes (BBC):5w6>8w7>3w4 Sx/Sp (original S.H. is 8w9 fixed and Sp/Sx)
> Gordon Gekko:8w7>7w8>3w4 Sp/Sx
> Bobby Axelrod (Billions):7w8>3w4>8w7 Sp/Sx
> Romeo:4w3>7w6>?w? Sx/So
> Juliet:6w7>4w3>1w9 Sx/Sp
> Have to think for more input.I watch many shows,but usually don't grasp them :wink:,so remembering the characters's names are bit of a challenge.


- Romeo and Juliet are 2s 
- Sherlock Holmes is never a Sexual 5. depending on the interpretation, he could be a Social 5 or a Self Preservation 7 (I lean the latter), but Sexual 5 is much more romantically tormented and preoccupied with finding true love.


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## Aurus

QueenOfCats said:


> Harry Potter (typings by the ULTIMATE HP FAN):
> 
> Harry: 9w8 (not sure about instincts but not sx last) (9w8-6w7-2w3)
> Hermione: 1w2 sp/so (1w2-3w4-6w5)
> Ron: 6w7 so/sx (6w7-3w2-9w8)
> Ginny: 7w8 so/sx (7w8-2w3-9w8)
> Fred and George: ULTIMATE 7s (not sure about wings but so/sx or sx/so for sure) (7-3w2-9w8 or 7-2w3-9w8)
> Molly: 2w1 sp/so or so/sx (2w1-6w7-8w9)
> Arthur: 7w6 or 5w6 so/sp (5/7-9w1-2w3)
> Luna: 9w1 sp/sx or sx/sp (9w1-5w4-4w5)
> Neville: 6w7 sp/sx (692)
> Snape: 5w4 or 4w5 sx/sp (5w4/4w5-8w9)
> Sirius (love of my life, fire of my loins): 6w7 sx/so FOR SURE (he fits sx 6 in every way) (6w7-8w7-2w3)
> James (my child): 7w6 so/sx (7w6-3w2-1w9)
> Lily (my other child): 1w2 so/sx or sx/so (1w2-2w3-7w6)
> Remus: 9w1 as fuck (9w1-6w7-2w1) (no clue on instincts)
> Peter: 6 sp/so (6-9w8-3w2)
> Voldemort: 4w3 or 3w4 (probably 3w4) (3/4-6w5-8w7) (no clue about instincts)
> Bellatrix: 6w7 or 2w3 sx/so (6w7/2w3-1w2)
> Dumbledore: 1w9 so/sx (1w9-5/7-2w3)


Harry to me isn't a 9w8, i think he is a 1w9 personally. I don't know if i agree with Dumbledore, he's maybe 1w9, but i think that he could be 4w5...



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Romeo and Juliet are 2s
> - Sherlock Holmes is never a Sexual 5. depending on the interpretation, he could be a Social 5 or a Self Preservation 7 (I lean the latter), but Sexual 5 is much more romantically tormented and preoccupied with finding true love.


I agree with what you said. But i think Sherlock is 5w4 Sp/So maybe, i am unsure about the second instinctual variant. He doesn't seem neither So nor Sx.


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## QueenOfCats

Aurus said:


> Harry to me isn't a 9w8, i think he is a 1w9 personally. I don't know if i agree with Dumbledore, he's maybe 1w9, but i think that he could be 4w5...


Why 1w9? He's soooo passive and not particularly restrained or controlled. He's also incredibly impulsive and can be randomly explosive like 9w8s usually are. And why 4w5 for Dumbledore?


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## Aurus

QueenOfCats said:


> Why 1w9? He's soooo passive and not particularly restrained or controlled. He's also incredibly impulsive and can be randomly explosive like 9w8s usually are. And why 4w5 for Dumbledore?


I think that Harry is neither passive nor controlled. He is extremely short tempered. He can become particuraly explosive becayse he has a lot of Integrity. If aything defies ethics and goodness he becomes extremely reckless and agressive, although he regrets sometimes that he explodes (something quite 1w9 ish if you ask me). 4w5 for Alby D because he is what keeps Harry on his more sensitive side, explain to him the deep meaning of things and he is also extremely romantic (intellectualy romantic i mean, not like a romantic bf). He constantly gives enphasis on the importance of love and beauty in life, and how it can makes us better people. He is not primarily concerned with what is black and what is white (like Harry for instance) he is more concerned with the meaning of both, importance of both and what is the grey area between both. But i also think he can be 1w9.
Imo Harry is 1w9 3w2 7w6
Alby D is 1w9 4w5 7w6


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## BroNerd

Swordsman of Mana said:


> hell no. 3w4s are cold, un-expressive, conscientious and generally a bit conservative. Voldemort doesn't to be praised or have "success" in the 3-ish sense, he wants vengeance, power and the sadistic satisfaction of slaughtering his enemies.


Even a sx first 3w4? Was leaning towards that for Voldemort.


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## Swordsman of Mana

BroNerd said:


> Even a sx first 3w4? Was leaning towards that for Voldemort.


actually, Sx 3 are generally somewhat sweeter, more preppy and look kind of like 9s (though they're also bubblier like 7s and some 2s)


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## newbie const

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Romeo and Juliet are 2s
> - Sherlock Holmes is never a Sexual 5. depending on the interpretation, he could be a Social 5 or a Self Preservation 7 (I lean the latter), but Sexual 5 is much more romantically tormented and preoccupied with finding true love.


What kind of 2 Romeo and Juliet are?Elaborate please..

And I agree with Sherlock Holmes part.Original one is 5w6 So/Sp,I am doubtless.For BBC one,you think Sp 7?Why?

Any example of Sx 5w6,please?


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> What kind of 2 Romeo and Juliet are?Elaborate please..
> And I agree with Sherlock Holmes part.Original one is 5w6 So/Sp,I am doubtless.For BBC one,you think Sp 7?Why?
> Any example of Sx 5w6,please?


one of my best friends is one, but that doesn't help much. look up Syaoran from Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles.


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## Shadow Tag

@Swordsman of Mana

I'm interested in why you think Ash from Pokemon is a social 2. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure how to pick out social 2s and he seems a bit different from the rest. 

I guess I'm asking what the social 2 is all about?


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## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> one of my best friends is one, but that doesn't help much. look up Syaoran from Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles.


Haven't read or watched this in a while, but I don't remember him seeming very 5...


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## Swordsman of Mana

tenefix said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> 
> I'm interested in why you think Ash from Pokemon is a social 2. I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure how to pick out social 2s and he seems a bit different from the rest.


he's actually pretty similar to Naruto and Yahiko



> I guess I'm asking what the social 2 is all about?


if I were to sum up Social 2 in one word, it would be "glory". Naranjo gives them the theme "ambition", but I don't find this descriptive enough, because plenty of other types like 7s, 8s and Sexual 4s are "ambitious" too. Social 2 wants to be inspiring and praised for their accomplishments like 3s, but there is also a good deal more bravado and pride than the more dry 3.


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## Swordsman of Mana

Distortions said:


> Haven't read or watched this in a while, but I don't remember him seeming very 5...


Sexual 5s are the weird one of the bunch, because they're actually fairly sensitive, more in touch with their emotions, and even more romantic than 4s.


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## d e c a d e n t

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Sexual 5s are the weird one of the bunch, because they're actually fairly sensitive, more in touch with their emotions, and even more romantic than 4s.


Even if they are, there's still more to the type than being a sensitive romantic though, right?


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## leadintea

Swordsman of Mana said:


> he's actually pretty similar to Naruto and Yahiko
> 
> 
> if I were to sum up Social 2 in one word, it would be "glory". Naranjo gives them the theme "ambition", but I don't find this descriptive enough, because plenty of other types like 7s, 8s and Sexual 4s are "ambitious" too. Social 2 wants to be inspiring and praised for their accomplishments like 3s, but there is also a good deal more bravado and pride than the more dry 3.


I dunno about this. Ash seems more Social 7 than a Social 2 to me. He doesn't show anywhere near as much intellect or political/social savvy as soc 2 do, and he doesn't really care about social standings nor does he ally himself to any groups he deems as important. He isn't as manipulative or giving as a soc 2 and he's not a very prideful person. And apart from having a desire to be a Pokemon master, which he does more so because of a drive rather than for the glory, he really has very little 2 traits. IMO, Ash is more of a soc 7. He frequently goes out of his way to help others, he inspires others with his idealism, and he's more impulsive and self-referencing than a soc 2. I also feel the same about Naruto, but I haven't watched much of the show to say that for certain. To me, Ash seems like the generic soc/sx 7 shounen hero rather than the socially adept and chameleonic soc 2.


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## Swordsman of Mana

leadintea said:


> I dunno about this. Ash seems more Social 7 than a Social 2 to me. He doesn't show anywhere near as much intellect or political/social savvy as soc 2 do, and he doesn't really care about social standings nor does he ally himself to any groups he deems as important. He isn't as manipulative or giving as a soc 2 and he's not a very prideful person. And apart from having a desire to be a Pokemon master, which he does more so because of a drive rather than for the glory, he really has very little 2 traits. IMO, Ash is more of a soc 7. He frequently goes out of his way to help others, he inspires others with his idealism, and he's more impulsive and self-referencing than a soc 2. I also feel the same about Naruto, but I haven't watched much of the show to say that for certain. To me, Ash seems like the generic soc/sx 7 shounen hero rather than the socially adept and chameleonic soc 2.


not a bad typing, but I see him as Social 2 for a few reasons
1) he is VERY proud. I'm not sure why you don't think he is
2) he seems more heart center than head center.
3) he has a good deal of competitive bravado which I find in Social 2s, but not Social 7s. (Social 7 seems more "hippie" for lack of a better descriptor)
4) So and Sx 7s tend to sit around talking a lot. Ash is all about action and generally charges in head first, exhibiting intellect as a more tertiary measure after he's had his ass handed to him and needs a new strategy. 
5) I don't exactly see most Social 2s are "chameleonic" (I like that word! lmao). they're generally a fairly charismatic type and have a strong connection to 8 (Naranjo types Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Alexander the Great as Social 2s)


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## newbie const

Aurus said:


> Harry to me isn't a 9w8, i think he is a 1w9 personally. I don't know if i agree with Dumbledore, he's maybe 1w9, but i think that he could be 4w5...
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said. But i think Sherlock is 5w4 Sp/So maybe, i am unsure about the second instinctual variant. He doesn't seem neither So nor Sx.


Sherlock as a 5w4?No way man,the Conan Doyle version is 5w6 So/Sp,with pretty strong 8w9 fix and high integration to 8 also.
BBC one is 7w6 Sp/Sx maybe,with 8w7 fix.


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## newbie const

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Sexual 5s are the weird one of the bunch, because they're actually fairly sensitive, more in touch with their emotions, and even more romantic than 4s.


5 is a fundamentally disconnected type,so how can a Sx 5 be more romantic than 4s?I think the naive,sensitive aspect of Sx 3,5 and 7 is a bit overused.Any type (except 9w1) with leading Sx instinct would be aggressive,lusty and full of sexual energy.Sx 7s are also blatant hedonists :laughing:


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> 5 is a fundamentally disconnected type,so how can a Sx 5 be more romantic than 4s?I think the naive,sensitive aspect of Sx 3,5 and 7 is a bit overused.


well, first off, most 4s aren't really very "romantic" in the normal sense of the word. yes, they have a penchant for melancholy and artistic pursuits, but most of them fear actual intimacy and tend to view actual relationships incredibly pessimistically (on a personal note, this aspect of them has pissed me off quite a few times in the past lol). 

with Sx 5s, it's precisely _because_ they are so detached that they are so romantic. Sp 5s and So 5s don't really care that much about deep connection (So 5s connection on a colder, more intellectual level), but Sx 5s experience clashing pulls between the core and the dominant instinct. they often spend hours locked away obsessing over the perfect person, wanting nothing more than that perfect person to come along and "share their bubble". the problem is compounded precisely the external world is so draining and difficult to navigate.



> Any type (except 9w1) with leading Sx instinct would be aggressive,lusty and full of sexual energy.


lusty: yes
full of sexual energy: yes
aggressive:....not always. sexuality can also be a more "yin" sexuality. softer, more seductive, more subtle



> Sx 7s are also blatant hedonists :laughing:


that's Sp 7s and Sexual 8s. Sx 7s can be that way too, but they're also more imaginative/up in their heads because they have less of a preoccupation on survival and tangible deprivation than Sp 7


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## Aurus

newbie const said:


> Sherlock as a 5w4?No way man,the Conan Doyle version is 5w6 So/Sp,with pretty strong 8w9 fix and high integration to 8 also.
> BBC one is 7w6 Sp/Sx maybe,with 8w7 fix.


But in the books (and BBC) sherlock is completely deprived of Sx and he is in no way concerned with danger + he isn't at all cautious. And he plays the violin and he is deeply in touch with art and depthness of things, he is an unhealthy 5w4 sp/so . I can't see neither Enenatype 6 nor Sx in him.


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## Brains

Aurus said:


> But in the books (and BBC) sherlock is completely deprived of Sx and he is in no way concerned with danger + he isn't at all cautious. And he plays the violin and he is deeply in touch with art and depthness of things, he is an unhealthy 5w4 sp/so . I can't see neither Enenatype 6 nor Sx in him.


BBC Sherlock is deathly afraid of boredom and does cases pretty much for fun. He IS competent as hell, being an expert is not a coping mechanism for fear of the world, it's a coping mechanism for acute boredom.


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## newbie const

Brains said:


> BBC Sherlock is deathly afraid of boredom and does cases pretty much for fun. He IS competent as hell, being an expert is not a coping mechanism for fear of the world, it's a coping mechanism for acute boredom.


Agreed.That's why BBC Sherlock is 7w6.I can see more Sp/So than Sx.Has a 8w7 fix.


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## newbie const

@Aurus
In books,Holmes is aware of danger and he is cautious too.He carefully plans his way out of any situation.He is too suspicious to be 5w4.Again,attachment to art is not a 4/w4 thing solely.And he is not disintegrated,he is highly integrated to 8,so no anxiety.Also 583 is the most single-mindedly focused combo,especially when healthy.

And BBC Sherlock is what you described,he significantly lacks the characteristics of original Holmes.I see him as 7w8 Sp/So now.


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## newbie const

@Swordsman of Mana,I agree with all of your points,but not completely on Sx 7s.
Sx 7s can come into many varieties like other 7s.And they are not the rosy,naive cuties as some descriptions imply,that's So/Sx 7w6 with 9 fix.Sx/So 7s are aggressive,desirous,megalomaniac and have a huge and expansive hedonistic energy (unless they have 9 fix,they don't hide that).On the other hand,Sp 7w6s are nervous and even paranoid sometimes,their hedonism comes from that place to meet their fears.


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> @Swordsman of Mana,I agree with all of your points,but not completely on Sx 7s.
> Sx 7s can come into many varieties like other 7s.And they are not the rosy,naive cuties as some descriptions imply,that's So/Sx 7w6 with 9 fix.Sx/So 7s are aggressive,desirous,megalomaniac and have a huge and expansive hedonistic energy (unless they have 9 fix,they don't hide that).On the other hand,Sp 7w6s are nervous and even paranoid sometimes,their hedonism comes from that place to meet their fears.


7w6 So/Sx with a 9 fix is more "peace loving hippie". 7w6 Sx/So is more naive and goofball-ish, but 7 Sx/Sp is a bit more hard edged and pulls from the survivalist tendencies of Sp 7. I agree that the overall naivity of Sx 7s is exaggerated though


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## newbie const

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 7w6 So/Sx with a 9 fix is more "peace loving hippie". 7w6 Sx/So is more naive and goofball-ish, but 7 Sx/Sp is a bit more hard edged and pulls from the survivalist tendencies of Sp 7. I agree that the overall naivity of Sx 7s is exaggerated though


Do you think Sp 7w6 is overall the most mentally nervous and cautious of 7s?They seem to fill the category of cautious hedonists lol.
And how come Naranjo types Napoleon,Caesar & ATG as 2s?They scream id to me...


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> Do you think Sp 7w6 is overall the most mentally nervous and cautious of 7s?They seem to fill the category of cautious hedonists lol.


sort of, they are the most afraid of physical pain and survival-related issues. think Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad



> And how come Naranjo types Napoleon,Caesar & ATG as 2s?They scream id to me...


because 2 _is_ and Id type. this is one of the biggest blunders of the modern Enneagram


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## newbie const

Swordsman of Mana said:


> sort of, they are the most afraid of physical pain and survival-related issues. think Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad
> 
> 
> because 2 _is_ and Id type. this is one of the biggest blunders of the modern Enneagram


Wait a bit,2 is an id type?You are starting revolution man,you will be washed away :wink:
However,2w3 and 4w3 fixers are more overtly competetive and aggressive than 3 fixers,imo.
And..
Napoleon:8w7>3w2>7w8 Sx/So
JC:7w8>3w2>8w7 Sx/So
ATG:7w8>8w7>2w3 Sx/So.


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> Wait a bit,2 is an id type?You are starting revolution man,you will be washed away :wink:


not a revolution, more of a resurgence actually. check out this thread (direct quotes from Naranjo) and tell me if 2 still sounds like a superego type to you 
http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-forum-helper/181668-2-seducer-not-helper.html 



> However,2w3 and 4w3 fixers are more overtly competetive and aggressive than 3 fixers,imo.


I would disagree, but I can see where you are coming from



> Napoleon:8w7>3w2>7w8 Sx/So
> JC:7w8>3w2>8w7 Sx/So
> ATG:7w8>8w7>2w3 Sx/So.


- JC was far too grounded for Sp-last 7
- Sexual 8w7 for Napoleon isn't a terrible typing
- I might agree with your typing of Alexander the Great (he was also very intellectual and philosophically curious. not very 2 lmao)


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## newbie const

@Swordsman of Mana,I read that thread before and immediately changed the thought that my mom is a 2.
And I still think w3 fixers are more overtly aggressive than core 3 fixers.Will you point out why you disagreed?I see it from real life perspectives.Not always,but core id with those fixes are either aggressive (male) or histrionic (female).

And,what do you think about Napoleon,JC and ATG?With MBTI,tritype and stackings?


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## Swordsman of Mana

newbie const said:


> @Swordsman of Mana,I read that thread before and immediately changed the thought that my mom is a 2.
> And I still think w3 fixers are more overtly aggressive than core 3 fixers.Will you point out why you disagreed?I see it from real life perspectives.Not always,but core id with those fixes are either aggressive (male) or histrionic (female).


oh, I just disagreed with the competitive part. 3s are pretty much always competing, because losing to them feels like falling off the treadmill of self-esteem. 2s and 4s are competitive when they feel vindictive :wink: 3s are the least aggressive heard fix imo



> And,what do you think about Napoleon,JC and ATG?With MBTI,tritype and stackings?


Napoleon: Sx/So or So/Sx
JC: So/Sx
ATG: Sx/So


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## Aurus

Brains said:


> BBC Sherlock is deathly afraid of boredom and does cases pretty much for fun. He IS competent as hell, being an expert is not a coping mechanism for fear of the world, it's a coping mechanism for acute boredom.


Not really. He isn't afraid of the world. I bet that if Sherlock was a real dude he would hate the world. Why? Because everyone is SLOW. Beating boredom isn't a coping mechanism because he isn't afraid of it, he is genuinelly bored as fuck because everything is slow,obvious,tedious and boring compared to his standards.


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## fawning

Nerdy goff shit:

*Metalocalypse*
Nathan Explosion: 9w8 sp/so (4 fix?)
Toki Wartooth (bumblebee): 9w1 so/sp
Skwisgaar Skwisgelf: 7w8 sx/sp
William Murderface: 8w7 sx/sp
Pickles: 6w7 so/sx
Charles Ofdensen: 1w9 so/sp

language warning, also this is probably not going to convince anyone to watch this series


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## lauraernst

Swordsman of Mana said:


> actually, Sx 3 are generally somewhat sweeter, more preppy and look kind of like 9s (though they're also bubblier like 7s and some 2s)



Hello

Just quoting this even if it has nothing to do with this thread. I am very intrigued ... I knew there was a difference between sx/sp etc. but I didn't know that it could make such a difference to make two different type so close ... How do you make the difference ? How do you know which one is right ? It become super tricky


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## Swordsman of Mana

lauraernst said:


> Hello
> 
> Just quoting this even if it has nothing to do with this thread. I am very intrigued ... I knew there was a difference between sx/sp etc. but I didn't know that it could make such a difference to make two different type so close ... How do you make the difference ? How do you know which one is right ? It become super tricky


http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...exual-threes-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


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## rockinlibrarian

BUMP. Trying to find well-known examples of heroes and villains and in-betweens of every type, myself. I am SO SET on 9s and 6s-- maybe because I am a 9 and I'm close to a lot of 6s?-- but I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with Type 3 heroes, any suggestions?



QueenOfCats said:


> I think that's definitely possible! She seems so 9ish though. Like she's so floaty and dreamy and gentle. And positive outlook because of how she deals with everything life throws at her. She seriously just seems to go along with everything and accept whatever happens to her.


I'm with you. She is so 9ish to me. I'd say 5 is her second-place-- her Ravenclaw curiousity and love of knowledge -- but she's too 9ish to ever get hung UP about the pursuit of knowledge or, pretty much anything. I just think a 5 would be a lot more resentful about people stealing her shoes and whatnot.


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## rockinlibrarian

rockinlibrarian said:


> BUMP. Trying to find well-known examples of heroes and villains and in-betweens of every type, myself. I am SO SET on 9s and 6s-- maybe because I am a 9 and I'm close to a lot of 6s?-- but I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with Type 3 heroes, any suggestions?


Tony Stark? A 3 hero? 

It looks like I'm talking to myself by replying to myself but I'm really just throwing this option I thought of out there so people can say yay or nay to it.


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## Dangerose

rockinlibrarian said:


> Tony Stark? A 3 hero?
> 
> It looks like I'm talking to myself by replying to myself but I'm really just throwing this option I thought of out there so people can say yay or nay to it.


Imo he's either a 3 or a 7!
It seems to me that a lot of classic heroes are 3s; say, Odysseus? (not sure though)
I think Jay Gatsby is usually typed 3. Othello I think, Lady Macbeth probably (Macbeth himself might be a 6?). Becky Sharpe from Vanity Fair (unless a 2 or 7). Eugene Onegin.


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## rockinlibrarian

Okay, now I realize I'm not happy with any of my Type 2 choices, particularly my examples of unhealthy 2 characters (Molly Weasley is a wonderful 2, but definitely not an example of 2s going wrong). Any suggestions? I've only seen clips and summaries of the show "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend" but from what I've seen I think she might qualify.

I think I'm settled on Tony Stark as a 3 now. I think his 7ish traits are more part of his 3ish mask than they are indicative of core 7ness. He's too cynical for a 7, and has a lot of proving-himself Daddy Issues, so I'm gonna go with 3 there!


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## d e c a d e n t

rockinlibrarian said:


> I think I'm settled on Tony Stark as a 3 now. I think his 7ish traits are more part of his 3ish mask than they are indicative of core 7ness. He's too cynical for a 7, and has a lot of proving-himself Daddy Issues, so I'm gonna go with 3 there!


Yeah I'm not an expert on the character, but from I know he seems to deal more with shame than fear right?

As for unhealthy 2s... I could honestly imagine there being a lot of them in fiction, but one example that comes to mind (who also manages to be sympathetic, though that's subjective) is Rameses from Prince of Egypt. At least I think he could be a 2...



QueenOfCats said:


> Lmao I see your point. He's sooooo melodramatic all the time. He was really 3ish in his youth though. Almost everyone thought of him as very charming and smooth.


He is also the big bad in a children's series, so that could be part of why he's portrayed as so over-the-top. So while I'm not sure what I would type him as (I haven't read these books in a while), I'm also not sure that's the best argument against 3, though it might be an argument for him not being a very well-written 3, if he is one. =P

At least it's not enough to convince me that he's a 4, because I mean... this is a character who was willing to give up his soul in order to achieve his goals, which doesn't really strike me as a 4 theme. So the fact that he's so melodramatic seems more a result of him catching a case of "villain-itis" or something like that.


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## Firemoon

@Swordsman of Mana

Why would Anakin be a 2 sx? Except for his ""unmeasurable love""" for Padme, I don't see any sign of 2 in him.


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## Angina Jolie

Distortions said:


> Hulk seems like a 9 archetype/concept at least. Don't know about the other two, but I know someone who thinks Rollo is a 9w8 because of how he's sort of apathetic about things until someone influences him (basically).


I've seen the first 2 seasons of Vikings and Rollo has always been sort of there, but still int he background. Not running the show. And he resents his brother, the showrunner, also the trouble maker - that sounds rather familiar. And deep down he wants to break out and shine. Yeah, we gotta take in high consideration that in Viking times violence was normal. Their whole mindset about life and death is completely different than now. Paganism. So violence isn't necessarily a deal breaker or a green light for any of the types here. If I take that out, Rollo could definitely be a 9w8 sp probably. Or So? But it's still hard to think of a 9 to be like that. But he has a very soft quality (maybe just the actor).


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## mistakenforstranger

American Beauty

Lester - 9w8
Carolyn - 1w2
Jane - 4w5
Angela - 3w2 or 6w7 --> 3?
Ricky - 5w4
Ricky's dad - 6w5
Ricky's mom - unhealthy 9w1
Buddy - 3w4


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## mistakenforstranger

Betty Draper from Mad Men is a 9w1. As the show progresses, she acts like an unhealthy, neurotic Type 6.

"It makes me sorry for him, when in fact, I should be angry. Very angry."






How a 9 releases their pent-up aggression:


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## Animal

*Magneto 1w9 Sx/So*


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## Miss Bingley

GOT:
Ned - 1w9
Catelyn - 1w2
Tyrion - 7w6 or 5w6
Jamie - 3w2 or 7w6
Arya - 9w8 or 8w9
Daenerys - 9w8
Jon - 6w5
Bran - 4w5

Grey's Anatomy b/c i'm garbage - 
Meredith - 6w7
Cristina - 3w4
Amelia - 7w8
Derek - 2w3
Addison - 3w4
Izzie - 1w2
George - 9w1


----------



## Dangerose

About Tyrion - I'm really curious about his type - I'm wondering about social 4w3?
Or is he a 7w6?

(But _*please please please*_ mark spoilers, or at least warn me; I have been unable to watch past mid-season 3 because I only have HBO on my phone and I'm housesitting and can't connect my phone to this WiFi)

And Shae -- curious about her too (again, please please mark spoilers!!!), she seems also 7 or possibly 2 or 8 or something...

For instance, I'm thinking of this little conversation, after Tyrion was injured (can't find the exact quote but it was something along the lines of):

Tyrion: It was good of you to come.
Shae: Good of me? Of course I come. Have you looked [at your injury] yet?
Tyrion: No.
Shae: I will be the first.
*unwraps bandage*
Tyrion: Well?
Shae: You're a mess.
Tyrion: I'm a monster, as well as a dwarf. You should charge me double.
Shae: *mocking* Awww, I'm a poor little rich man, and nobody loves me, so I tell jokes and pay people to laugh. Fuck your money!

Seems like good commentary on his character, seems like he does have a lot of self-pity that he doesn't necessarily broadcast. Of course every type can have self-pity but...I don't know. Seems social though 
* *




His little speech thing about belonging in the world of politics, not running away with Shae, sealed the deal imo, probably sp-last too


 and if not head core strong head fix. But idk, feel like he could be a 4 core.


----------



## Animal

@Phoenix Virtue
I think Tyrion is a 6w5, though I could also entertain 7w6. He's extremely skeptical, he is aware of his victimhood but also willing to laugh about it, he has a fear/courage dichotomy.. although I could also see a case for gluttony/sobriety. He loves to figure people out, which could be 6w5 or 7's line to 5. He does not tend to assume the best, AT ALL.. he is untrusting, kind of reactive. But, he could also just be a jaded 7. I find that he values skepticism and a questioning mind, and takes pride in his doubt and skepticism , the way a 6 would. At the same time, he loves to tell jokes and entertain; every other word out of his mouth is humorous. So I am not sure which way to go. How would he integrate and disintegrate ? I don't see 7-to-1 narcissistic tantrums; but I don't see 6-to-3 faking/working hard either. I see a very strong acceptance of chaos and the way things are, and less idealism, which strikes me more 6 than anything idealist triad. But, I could see a case for either, I guess.

He's definitely a head type though, not a 4.


----------



## Lord Fudgingsley

@Swordsman of Mana what makes you think Social 8 for Gimli? I can definitely see him as a So-dom, but not really sure about 8. He's assertive but doesn't really seem focused on control. I haven't read the books, admittedly.

In the film it's hard to identify his exact personality and motivations however, as at no point does Gimli ever get the limelight.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Lord Fudgingsley said:


> @Swordsman of Mana what makes you think Social 8 for Gimli? I can definitely see him as a So-dom, but not really sure about 8. He's assertive but doesn't really seem focused on control. I haven't read the books, admittedly.
> 
> In the film it's hard to identify his exact personality and motivations however, as at no point does Gimli ever get the limelight.


only other type I could see would be 9w8. he's definitely gut center and not a 1 or 9w1. he seems a bit more outwardly angry like an 8, so that makes more sense to me.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> @Phoenix Virtue
> I think Tyrion is a 6w5, though I could also entertain 7w6. He's extremely skeptical, he is aware of his victimhood but also willing to laugh about it, he has a fear/courage dichotomy.. although I could also see a case for gluttony/sobriety. He loves to figure people out, which could be 6w5 or 7's line to 5. He does not tend to assume the best, AT ALL.. he is untrusting, kind of reactive. But, he could also just be a jaded 7. I find that he values skepticism and a questioning mind, and takes pride in his doubt and skepticism , the way a 6 would. At the same time, he loves to tell jokes and entertain; every other word out of his mouth is humorous. So I am not sure which way to go. How would he integrate and disintegrate ? I don't see 7-to-1 narcissistic tantrums; but I don't see 6-to-3 faking/working hard either. I see a very strong acceptance of chaos and the way things are, and less idealism, which strikes me more 6 than anything idealist triad. But, I could see a case for either, I guess.
> 
> He's definitely a head type though, not a 4.


he's too friendly and sociable for 6w5. 6w5s are colder, more austere/"stick to your own".
PS: I actually see him as a bit 1-ish at some points. nothing like an ENFP 7 with a 1 fix, but you can see it in the multiple scenes where he scolds Joffrey (being among the few brave enough to actually do it), when he argues with his father (ex: about the Red Wedding) or other scenes where he thinks people are being unnecessarily cruel. imo, he is 7w6>2w3>9w1 Sx/Sp (he plays Sp 7, but he's softer and more emotional like Sexual 7)


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> *Magneto 1w9 Sx/So*


if he's a 1, he has a 2 wing. I would say either 1w2 Sx/So or 8w7 So/Sx (except in the prequel movies, where he is Social-last 8w7 as fuck lol)


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> if he's a 1, he has a 2 wing. I would say either 1w2 Sx/So or 8w7 So/Sx (except in the prequel movies, where he is Social-last 8w7 as fuck lol)


1w2, perhaps.. BUT NOT 8, no way. He is on an idealistic crusade.

As for Tyrion I have no idea.

But Magneto is as 1 as they get.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> 1w2, perhaps.. BUT NOT 8, no way. He is on an idealistic crusade.
> 
> As for Tyrion I have no idea.
> 
> But Magneto is as 1 as they get.


Michael Fassbender's Magneto is not idealistic at all. he's like a mutant Khal Drogo or Beatrix Kiddo :laughing:

for the comic book and Ian McKellen Magneto's, I see him as somewhat of an evil version of Martin Luther King, Moses or Malcolm X, so Social 8, Sexual 1 or even Social 2 could work (the last one is a bit of a stretch, but I haven't ruled it out).


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Michael Fassbender's Magneto is not idealistic at all. he's like a mutant Khal Drogo or Beatrix Kiddo :laughing:
> 
> for the comic book and Ian McKellen Magneto's, I see him as somewhat of an evil version of Martin Luther King, Moses or Malcolm X, so Social 8, Sexual 1 or even Social 2 could work (the last one is a bit of a stretch, but I haven't ruled it out).


He's an obvious 1. He's on an idealistic mission that is bigger than he is. He's all super-ego. His line to 4 is dead obvious too... as well as 7, in his theatrics and how he spins in the air.. he is very "dignified" and at the same time, pissed off. Wolverine is an 8. He doesn't give a shit about a bigger mission but he responds immediately to injustice and corrects it in an instinctual way. There is no comparison between the two - except that they're both gut types. When Wolverine says to Magneto "You're like me - a survivor." Magneto doesn't really care. His mission is not about being a survivor. It's about his idealistic vision of a better world.


Look at their body language, even. Wolverine is physically brutal and Magneto carefully and perfectly inserts a coin into the middle of his enemy's brain. Lol.. so 1ish.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> He's an obvious 1. He's on an idealistic mission that is bigger than he is. He's all super-ego. His line to 4 is dead obvious too... as well as 7, in his theatrics and how he spins in the air.. he is very "dignified" and at the same time, pissed off. Wolverine is an 8. He doesn't give a shit about a bigger mission but he responds immediately to injustice and corrects it in an instinctual way. There is no comparison between the two - except that they're both gut types. When Wolverine says to Magneto "You're like me - a survivor." Magneto doesn't really care. His mission is not about being a survivor. It's about his idealistic vision of a better world.
> 
> 
> Look at their body language, even. Wolverine is physically brutal and Magneto carefully and perfectly inserts a coin into the middle of his enemy's brain. Lol.. so 1ish.


so, are all the other people I mentioned obvious 1s? they wanted the same things. 

PS: just for fun, a Social 2w1 villain 

* *


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> so, are all the other people I mentioned obvious 1s? they wanted the same things.
> 
> PS: just for fun, a Social 2w1 villain
> 
> * *


No.. I mean.. different types can want similar things but it comes from different defenses & fears & compulsions etc. You and I are both libertarian but that doesn't make us the same type, for example.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> No.. I mean.. different types can want similar things but it comes from different defenses & fears & compulsions etc. You and I are both libertarian but that doesn't make us the same type, for example.


bingo! that's my point. I see the kinds of behaviors Magneto exhibits in Sexual 1s, Social 8s and Social 2s.


----------



## Daeva

@Swordsman of Mana

Social 8 examples:

8w9: Gimli

8w7: Thor



Magneto does not fit in that list


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> bingo! that's my point. I see the kinds of behaviors Magneto exhibits in Sexual 1s, Social 8s and Social 2s.


Behaviors, yes, but not the motivations.... and actually I don't think his behavior is particularly indicative of 8 or 2 either. He has a firm sense of what's right and how things should be, and he makes no excuses for it; he has no trouble standing up for what he thinks is right but he struggles more with opening up in an emotional way or sharing his emotions, which rules out any type of 2. His behavior, you could argue, in some scenes might be 8 or 1, but the underlying themes that stick with him throughout everything are about his self-righteous indignation, being a vessel through which his ideals emerge, being an example for others, etc.


----------



## Animal

Also @Swordsman of Mana
You forget that 8s sin is LUST - power lust. It's not wrath. Magneto is all wrath. His central problem and conflict is around anger. Yes, all of the gut types are rooted in anger, and of course 8s can make quite a display of it, but they don't carry it with them in this seething way.. it's more like an anger that underlies their lust.. the lust that arises in order to fill the emptiness. Magneto has no such lust.. he doesn't care about power - or even autonomy or JUSTICE - in and of itself; he cares about his vision. I know that 8s can care about their vision, ie MLK... and not all 8s will approach it with a "fight hate with love" type of stance... but Magneto doesn't even care about people who are suffering in the moment, who are vulnerable.. he cares about his vision. When Mystique - his closest follower - turns into a human because of a formula that takes away her powers, he immediately abandons her because he hates humans. He doesn't care that she's vulnerable. But he'll stop at nothing to enact his super-ego vision. 8s are more sensitive to imbalances of power.. whereas Magneto doesnt' care about imbalance of power. He just cares about what's "right" in his mind.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sun Daeva said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> 
> Social 8 examples:
> 
> 8w9: Gimli
> 
> 8w7: Thor
> 
> 
> 
> Magneto does not fit in that list


1) you only gave one example of each :tongue:
2) Thor is Social 2 as fuck :laughing: he is all about being praised, admired and glorified. 
3) Social 8w7 is more like Olenna Tyrell, Malcolm X or possibly Santa Klaus (a VERY integrated one if he is an 8 lol).


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> Also @Swordsman of Mana
> You forget that 8s sin is LUST - power lust. It's not wrath. Magneto is all wrath. His central problem and conflict is around anger. Yes, all of the gut types are rooted in anger, and of course 8s can make quite a display of it, but they don't carry it with them in this seething way.. it's more like an anger that underlies their lust.. the lust that arises in order to fill the emptiness. Magneto has no such lust.. he doesn't care about power - or even autonomy or JUSTICE - in and of itself; he cares about his vision. I know that 8s can care about their vision, ie MLK... and not all 8s will approach it with a "fight hate with love" type of stance... but Magneto doesn't even care about people who are suffering in the moment, who are vulnerable.. he cares about his vision. When Mystique - his closest follower - turns into a human because of a formula that takes away her powers, he immediately abandons her because he hates humans. He doesn't care that she's vulnerable. But he'll stop at nothing to enact his super-ego vision. 8s are more sensitive to imbalances of power.. whereas Magneto doesnt' care about imbalance of power. He just cares about what's "right" in his mind.


Magneto has both 1-ish and 8-ish motivations. he is interested in both power and justice and exhibits both lust and wrath, so again, I could see other (there is a very strong case for 1, not denying that). still think it's 1w2 if he is a 1 though. so much _pride_ and _charisma_. 
PS: you make a good point about Mystique though. abandoning your own is very non-8, especially Social 8 (which, imo, is probably the most genuinely loyal of all 27 subtypes).


----------



## Daeva

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 1) you only gave one example of each :tongue:
> 2) Thor is Social 2 as fuck :laughing: he is all about being praised, admired and glorified.
> 3) Social 8w7 is more like Olenna Tyrell, Malcolm X or possibly Santa Klaus (a VERY integrated one if he is an 8 lol).


Santa is a 9w8 in my book (though the figure he's based on is a 1  )

And Thor... not seeing the 2 tbh. His magnanimity is more physical than emotional. All he wants is a good laugh, a good fight, a good drink,.. and all of that with a lot of good company! I don't see him caring all that much about praise.
And the theme of glory still fits Social 8.


.. and Malcolm X.. 8..? Hmm... yeah, not seeing it either, but I'd have to look into him more in order to say any more on his type.

Oh! And Olenna Tyrell? 8? Uh...


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Magneto has both 1-ish and 8-ish motivations. he is interested in both power and justice and exhibits both lust and wrath, so again, I could see other (there is a very strong case for 1, not denying that). still think it's 1w2 if he is a 1 though. so much _pride_ and _charisma_.


I don't see how he's interested in power per se. His interest in power is just because it's the means by which he would enact his vision. It's not for its own sake. 

1w9s can't have charisma?? :sad: Not even Natalie Portman?

Sx/So 1w2s are like a kettle that is boiling and boiling and boiling and won't shut up. And that is not based on anime characters; that is the 1w2 Sx/So's that I know in real life. I have seen both of them throw very emotional tantrums (but still based in wrath) about what was wrong with someone, in public, even getting tearful... they have no 'cool' to speak of... they are heartfelt, volcanic and fiery about their anger. 1w9s, however... 




> PS: you make a good point about Mystique though. abandoning your own is very non-8, especially Social 8 (which, imo, is probably the most genuinely loyal of all 27 subtypes).


Yeah exactly - he's only loyal to his vision, not to people. On top of that, he's Sx as fuck.


----------



## Animal

This is very "cool/distant" 1w9 Sx. "You can't even accept yourself" is a projection (although he's right that she can't, but he thought to point that out for a reason - because he can't accept himself either; he's a perfectionist).

Ok, you could argue I'm reading into it. Also, though, look at his body language. The lecturing. The tension.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sun Daeva said:


> Santa is a 9w8 in my book (though the figure he's based on is a 1  )
> 
> And Thor... not seeing the 2 tbh. His magnanimity is more physical than emotional.


that's not magnanimity, it's _pride_. he is physical because he is a caricature of an ESTP jock. He has much stronger desire for validation than an 8 (Social 8s are more....simple than 2s)
PS: come to think of it, Sexual 2 with strong Social could work too. Social 2 is usually a little more intellectual and big-picture.


----------



## Animal

How a 1 kills his worst enemy:






How 8s fight:








(disclaimer: please don't say "but magneto did it for revenge." Find me one person who wouldn't want revenge for that reason.)


----------



## Daeva

Swordsman of Mana said:


> that's not magnanimity, it's pride. he is physical because he is a caricature of an ESTP jock. He has much stronger desire for validation than an 8 (Social 8s are more....simple than 2s)
> PS: come to think of it, Sexual 2 with strong Social could work too. Social 2 is usually a little more intellectual and big-picture.


I edited my post with this, which is a nice answer to what you say about him:



> And Thor... not seeing the 2 tbh. His magnanimity is more physical than emotional. All he wants is a good laugh, a good fight, a good drink,.. and all of that with a lot of good company! I don't see him caring all that much about praise.
> And the theme of glory still fits Social 8.


I see Lust, not Pride.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> I don't see how he's interested in power per se. His interest in power is just because it's the means by which he would enact his vision. It's not for its own sake.
> 1w9s can't have charisma?? :sad: Not even Natalie Portman?


1) 1w9s can have charisma, but it's not the cult leader-esque charisma or 8, 7w8 or Sexual 1w2. 
2) I think Natalie Portman is a 7 in disguise :tongue:

Sx 1w9 not as DRAMATIC as Sx 1w2



> Sx/So 1w2s are like a kettle that is boiling and boiling and boiling and won't shut up. And that is not based on anime characters; that is the 1w2 Sx/So's that I know in real life. I have seen both of them throw very emotional tantrums (but still based in wrath) about what was wrong with someone, in public, even getting tearful... they have no 'cool' to speak of... they are heartfelt, volcanic and fiery about their anger. 1w9s, however...
> Yeah exactly - he's only loyal to his vision, not to people. On top of that, he's Sx as fuck.


Sexual 1w2 comes off more like this:


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 2) I think Natalie Portman is a 7 in disguise :tongue:


I've heard through reliable sources that she is very picky, uptight about media invasion, etc, goes way out of her way to keep them out of her business and stay private, doesn't like attention, and lots of other 1ish stuff. It's not an act :X


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

> Sun Daeva;28545250]I edited my post with this, which is a nice answer to what you say about him:
> I see Lust, not Pride.


to be perfectly honest, he comes off kind of like an ESTP version of Maximus from the Darkside forum :tongue:


----------



## Daeva

Swordsman of Mana said:


> to be perfectly honest, he comes off kind of like an ESTP version of Maximus from the Darkside forum :tongue:


Huh? Not really lol 

Thor is warmer, upbeat, high body energy,..

Max is dark, broody, intellectual,..


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sun Daeva said:


> Huh? Not really lol
> 
> Thor is warmer, upbeat, high body energy,..
> 
> Max is dark, broody, intellectual,..


Max isn't really that dark or broody in my opinion. I think he comes off plenty upbeat (though he is more intellectual than he's given credit for). lots of bravado, attention-seeking like Thor.
PS: for the record, I have a higher opinion of him than most people on the forum. yes, he can be annoying, immature and un-grounded, but he's also assertive and has a resilient brand of spunk which will serve him well in the future (and contrary to what people think about him, I think he genuinely does belief himself to be the shit. he's just rather clunky in expressing it lol).


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Max isn't really that dark or broody in my opinion. I think he comes off plenty upbeat (though he is more intellectual than he's given credit for). lots of bravado, attention-seeking like Thor.
> PS: for the record, I have a higher opinion of him than most people on the forum. yes, he can be annoying, immature and un-grounded, but he's also assertive and has a resilient brand of spunk which will serve him well in the future (and contrary to what people think about him, I think he genuinely does belief himself to be the shit. he's just rather clunky in expressing it lol).


I agree - I really like him. He has a lot of soul and spirit and determination that I don't often encounter.


----------



## Dangerose

(Sorry, just curious re the brief discussion of Olenna Tyrell - why 8w7? And what other types would be candidates?)

I was thinking social 1w9 but hers is a sort of personality that's quite difficult for me to pinpoint - actually characters in really plot-heavy shows/stories like GoT are hard for me to guess because I sometimes tune things out

To me she does seem like a gut type, in that she very much sees things as they are, with strong line to 7, as she seems content to be amusing herself a lot. 

Also, about 1 I guess, on another thread a while ago @O_o and I were thinking that Sweeney Todd was a 1w2 sx/sp, I'd be interested to know if others would agree



* *









I had him! 
His throat was there beneath my hand. 
No, I had him! 
His throat was there and now he'll never come again.
Mrs. Lovett: Easy now, hush love hush
I keep telling you, Whats your rush?
Todd: When? Why did I wait?
You told me to wait -
Now he'll never come again.
There's a hole in the world like a great black pit
And it's filled with people who are filled with sh*t
And the vermin of the world inhabit it.
But not for long...

They all deserve to die.
Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why.
Because in all of the whole human race
Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two
There's the one staying put in his proper place
And the one with his foot in the other one's face
Look at me, Mrs Lovett, look at you.

Don't we all deserve to die?
Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I.
Because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
For the rest of us death will be a relief
We all deserve to die.

And I'll never see Johanna
No I'll never hug my girl to me - finished!
Alright! You sir, how about a shave?
Come and visit your good friend Sweeney.
You sir, too sir? Welcome to the grave.

I will have vengeance. 
I will have salvation.
Who sir, you sir?
No ones in the chair, Come on! Come on!
Sweeney's. waiting. I want you bleeders.
You sir! Anybody!
Gentlemen now don't be shy!

Not one man, no, nor ten men.
Nor a hundred can assuage me.
I will have you!
And I will get him back even as he gloats
In the meantime I'll practice on less honorable throats.
And my Lucy lies in ashes 
And I'll never see my girl again.

But the work waits!
I'm alive at last!
And I'm full of joy!







(And Mrs Lovett seems sp/sx 2w1 to me)


* *









MRS. LOVETT:
(she kisses Todd)
Ooh, Mr. Todd! (kiss)
I'm so happy! (kiss)
I could (kiss)
Eat you up, I really could!
You know what I'd like to do, Mr. Todd? (kiss)
What I dream (kiss)
If the business stays as good?
Where I'd really like to go?
In a year or so?
Don't you want to know?

TODD: (spoken) of course.

LOVETT: Do you really want to know?

TODD: (spoken) Yes. I do.

LOVETT: By the sea, Mr. Todd, that's the life I'll covet,
By the sea, Mr. Todd, ooh, I know you'd love it!
You and me, Mr. T, we could be alone
In a house that we'd almost own,
Down by the sea!

TODD: Anything you say

LOVETT: Wouldn't that be smashing?

LOVETT:
Think how snug it'll be underneath our flannel
When it's just you and me and the English Channel!
In our cozy retreat kept all neat and tidy,
We'll have chums over ev'ry Friday!
By the sea!
Don'tcha love the weather?
By the sea!
We'll grow old together!
By the seaside,
Woahh
By the beautiful sea!

It'll be so quiet,
That who'll come by it,
Except a seagull
Hoo, hoo!
We shouldn't try it,
Though, 'til it's legal for two-hoo!
But a seaside wedding could be devised,
Me rumpled bedding legitimized!
Me eyelids'll flutter,
I'll turn into butter,
The moment I mutter I do-hoo!

Down by the sea,
Married nice and proper
By the sea
Bring along your chopper
To the seaside hoo hoo!
By the beautiful sea!


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Phoenix Virtue
compare her to a true Social 1: Tywin Lannister. he is dry, cold, rigid and conservative. Olenna is loose, witty, provocative and sexually liberal. this clip will make it clear who is the 1 and who is the 8 :tongue:


----------



## Dangerose

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Phoenix Virtue
> compare her to a true Social 1: Tywin Lannister. he is dry, cold, rigid and conservative. Olenna is loose, witty, provocative and sexually liberal. this clip will make it clear who is the 1 and who is the 8 :tongue:


Hm...well, yeah, the comparison is fair)
I just don't know that she's an _Eight_) I'll have to think it over)

I haven't watched enough of the show to know if I'm right (I literally just watched the scene you linked) but my impression of Olenna is that she fits a type of old woman who spent her youth being quite proper and reserved, a bit like Sansa perhaps (though I'd guess more intelligent and observational), caught onto how the world worked, became delighted by it and then took delight in her power to delight people by pointing out truths or imperfections) I mean, she seems ridiculously pleased with herself at all times for her witty observational humor)) I kinda saw this scene as 1-ish, kinda lording it over Tywin that she's not stuck on this fixation) To me it seems like they're both coming from a similar place, they are both trying to preserve their family's legacies, honor, to me it seems they speak the language, Olenna just has the upper hand a bit, socially speaking, because she's a bit 'looser', she has more string to play with. And I mean, their situations are different, their positions in society are different, Tywin is by nature of his position duty-bound and needs to be more straight-laced, but I don't expect a woman of Olenna's age can have much power without making an impression, she's not constantly under public scrutiny the way Tywin is, so sh doesn't have to watch her step as much, and is probably under a lot less continual, bureaucratic stress. And I assume their MBTI types are different, Tywin is super-STJ and Olenna is...something else)

I mean, I'm not sure about 1 for her, could see some other types, but I don't see this conversation as being necessarily indicative of their having different Enneagram types; their situations are too different. I suppose I can see 8 in that she's a bit of a 'truth-teller' and has quite a bit of steel in her personality, but...idk...she strikes me as being closer to the female counterpart of Tywin than, like, Khal Drogo) She has such an...aristocratic flavour to her. Of course upper-class 8s aren't going to seem like ruffians, but it seems like too much for me, in her case.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Hm...well, yeah, the comparison is fair)
> I just don't know that she's an _Eight_) I'll have to think it over)
> 
> I haven't watched enough of the show to know if I'm right (I literally just watched the scene you linked) but my impression of Olenna is that she fits a type of old woman who spent her youth being quite proper and reserved, a bit like Sansa perhaps (though I'd guess more intelligent and observational), caught onto how the world worked, became delighted by it and then took delight in her power to delight people by pointing out truths or imperfections) I mean, she seems ridiculously pleased with herself at all times for her witty observational humor)) I kinda saw this scene as 1-ish, kinda lording it over Tywin that she's not stuck on this fixation) To me it seems like they're both coming from a similar place, they are both trying to preserve their family's legacies, honor, to me it seems they speak the language, Olenna just has the upper hand a bit, socially speaking, because she's a bit 'looser', she has more string to play with. And I mean, their situations are different, their positions in society are different, Tywin is by nature of his position duty-bound and needs to be more straight-laced, but I don't expect a woman of Olenna's age can have much power without making an impression, she's not constantly under public scrutiny the way Tywin is, so sh doesn't have to watch her step as much, and is probably under a lot less continual, bureaucratic stress. And I assume their MBTI types are different, Tywin is super-STJ and Olenna is...something else)
> 
> I mean, I'm not sure about 1 for her, could see some other types, but I don't see this conversation as being necessarily indicative of their having different Enneagram types; their situations are too different. I suppose I can see 8 in that she's a bit of a 'truth-teller' and has quite a bit of steel in her personality, but...idk...she strikes me as being closer to the female counterpart of Tywin than, like, Khal Drogo) She has such an...aristocratic flavour to her. Of course upper-class 8s aren't going to seem like ruffians, but it seems like too much for me, in her case.


I think she's ENTP personally. 
she doesn't seem like Khal Drogo because he's an SP and is Sx/Sp (the least intellectual of the 8 stackings). Social 8 is a bit lighter, more intellectual and a touch more 7-ish


----------



## Animal

@*Swordsman of Mana* @*Phoenix Virtue*

Tywin is a 1w9, I agree on that, but Olenna strikes me as a 3.

The most obvious female 8 in the series is Yara Greyjoy. The second most obvious is Ygritte.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> @Swordsman of Mana @Phoenix Virtue
> 
> Tywin is a 1w9, I agree on that, but Olenna strikes me as a 3.


why 3 for Olenna? she seems too provocative for 3 (Social 3 is a bit more "metallic", more serious. comes off more like a politician)


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

@Phoenix Virtue
9s aren't nearly as passive-aggressive as they're made out to be. mostly, they're just...straight up passive. the most truly passive-aggressive type is 6, followed by 2s (especially 2w3 women, 2w1s are better), then 4s, then unhealthy 3s. however, any conflict-avoidant type can be passive-aggressive under pressure (higher degrees of passive-aggression require a certain degree more sneakiness, pettiness and malicious intent). the least passive-aggressive types are 8 and 1w2.


----------



## Dangerose

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Phoenix Virtue
> 9s aren't nearly as passive-aggressive as they're made out to be. mostly, they're just...straight up passive. the most truly passive-aggressive type is 6, followed by 2s (especially 2w3 women, 2w1s are better), then 4s, then unhealthy 3s. however, any conflict-avoidant type can be passive-aggressive under pressure (higher degrees of passive-aggression require a certain degree more sneakiness, pettiness and malicious intent). the least passive-aggressive types are 8 and 1w2.


But...9s are an anger-based type. and passive...surely I don't see another solution but passive-aggression)) Though...I guess 9s I know express anger mostly through the wings, not too passive-aggressive

Though I guess it partly depends on what being passive-aggressive actually is...I get accused of it a lot when I'm not trying to be  I do notice a lot of 2s being that way (Good Lord I used to be Facebook friends with a social 2w3 and on all my posts, all the posts of our mutual friends I would notice little passive-aggressive/humblebraggy comments from her, for instance I once made a jokey status like 'I sure hope when I get to heaven I'm presented with answers to all the little mysteries of life', it was longer than that, better phrased, I had examples and was being witty, the way I am y'know, and she commented like "Maybe later in life you'll find that there are more profound things to find in religion. For now, this is a lovely notion and I'm glad that it brings you pleasure!"

:angry:

(To which, to be fair, I believe I responded fairly passive-aggressively lol)

(Anyways, I don't see Sansa as _that_ passive-aggressive, just flashes here and there, but she's also a teenager, that's natural)

edit: sorry, I'm curious, how are 6s passive-aggressive? I don't really associate it with the type but I can sorta see it in some 6s I know, curious to hear more though


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Don't think I see 3 for Sansa. Her character seems more about hiding herself in order to survive than about being someone/something. Although she seemed aroused by the idea of being queen in the beginning, but then had second thoughts once she realized it was more dangerous/less idyllic than she had imagined. Then she would rather stay low/out of sight where it's safe. Granted, she's also in a rather helpless situation, but the character's themes don't strike me as primarily 3/image.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Distortions said:


> Don't think I see 3 for Sansa. *Her character seems more about hiding herself in order to survive than about being someone/something*. Although she seemed aroused by the idea of being queen in the beginning, but then had second thoughts once she realized it was more dangerous/less idyllic than she had imagined. Then she would rather stay low/out of sight where it's safe. Granted, she's also in a rather helpless situation, but the character's themes don't strike me as primarily 3/image.


if you were a 14 year old girl being passed between a psychopath who beheaded your father, another psychopath who raped you and a pedophile, it's likely your main life theme would be similar. the brief period (Season 1) before all that, she is much more Sx 3-ish.


----------



## Angina Jolie

Swordsman of Mana said:


> if you were a 14 year old girl being passed between a psychopath who beheaded your father, another psychopath who raped you and a pedophile, it's likely your main life theme would be similar. the brief period (Season 1) before all that, she is much more Sx 3-ish.


She quite obviously disintegrated to using 9s startegies. I agree.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Swordsman of Mana*
Still, do you think that the overall central _theme _of her character goes with Sx 3? I think that's still meaningful when it comes to a fictional character's type. Not that I would mind being convinced of her being one, because it's an interesting idea.

Also, Thor as a 2 I could see, but


----------



## sometimes

mistakenforstranger said:


> Betty Draper from Mad Men is a 9w1. As the show progresses, she acts like an unhealthy, neurotic Type 6.
> 
> "It makes me sorry for him, when in fact, I should be angry. Very angry."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How a 9 releases their pent-up aggression:


Hmm you maybe right. 9w1 6w? 2w3 ? Or 3w2? She definitely seems to fit type 9 abd seems 6ish at times maybe. But she is also very image conscious from what I remember? So I'm not sure. Maybe she has more of a 3 influence or something too...

It's been ages since I watched so I don't know.

But either way I love Betty Draper. I think a lot of people found her annoying which I can understand. But I really liked as a character, found her interesting, she amused me and I also felt sorry for her and I related to her... I think she might be an INTP.


----------



## Daeva

Charles Xavier (Professor X) - *ENFJ 7w6 So/Sx*
Erik Lehnsherr (Magneto) - *ENTJ 1w9 Sx/So*


----------



## Animal

Swordsman of Mana said:


> he lacks the pride or the line to 8 of a 2, but he's also much more warm and optimistic/positive outlook than any kind of 1 (warmth does not come naturally to 1s, like, at all). honestly, I see INFJ 7w6>9w1>2w1 So/Sx


I agree with this tritype wholeheartedly, although I'd place him at ENFJ instead of INFJ. He takes action quite easily whereas INFJ's get stuck in their mind analyzing everything. They are Ni doms...



> for Magneto, I see either
> 1w2>7w8>2w1 Sx/So
> or
> 8w7>6w5>2w1 So/Sx (he is not a 6 fixed 1 or a 7 fixed 8)


Magneto.. I would say 1w9-3w4.... not sure of the last fix. Maybe 7w8. Sx/So. *ENTJ*. I can't see 2 at all. And he is definitely ENTJ - he has inf-Fi... this very black and white idealism.. but a very nuanced approach to how to meet his goals.


----------



## Vermillion

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @*Phoenix Virtue*
> 9s aren't nearly as passive-aggressive as they're made out to be. mostly, they're just...straight up passive. the most truly passive-aggressive type is 6, followed by 2s (especially 2w3 women, 2w1s are better), then 4s, then unhealthy 3s. however, any conflict-avoidant type can be passive-aggressive under pressure (higher degrees of passive-aggression require a certain degree more sneakiness, pettiness and malicious intent). the least passive-aggressive types are 8 and 1w2.


I think the second part of your post is more accurate than the first, but I would phrase it differently -- any person under pressure can resort to passive-aggressiveness as a "safer" defense mechanism than outright argument. Yes, the motivation often is conflict avoidance... and while 8s and 1s are less likely to avoid conflict than others, I don't think the Enneagram says only some types can be "truly" passive-aggressive (what does it even mean to showcase TRUE passive-aggressiveness? Is there something such as false passive-aggressiveness?). I definitely think it's incorrect to classify an entire type (as you said, 6, 2, 4, and 3) as somehow owning the negative trait of passive-aggressiveness. 

Additionally I do think 9s can be passive-aggressive. They can be unwilling to accept and "own" their fury and set the right boundaries for themselves, but feel pressurized to do so anyway, in stressful situations. That can lead to some convoluted methods of self-expression, and passive-aggressiveness is a good example of that.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Animal said:


> I agree with this tritype wholeheartedly, although I'd place him at ENFJ instead of INFJ. He takes action quite easily whereas INFJ's get stuck in their mind analyzing everything. They are Ni doms...
> 
> 
> Magneto.. I would say 1w9-3w4.... not sure of the last fix. Maybe 7w8. Sx/So. *ENTJ*. I can't see 2 at all. And he is definitely ENTJ - he has inf-Fi... this very black and white idealism.. but a very nuanced approach to how to meet his goals.


1w9 with a 3w4 fix is a much more polite, polished personality. Magneto is rougher, more comfortable displaying consistent aggression (which, honestly, I don't think he really represses all that much, hence why I still have 8 on the table as a potential type).

the two is in (as a wing, a connection line and/or a fix)
- obvious pride
- cult-leader modus operandi
- charisma and ability to draw people to his cause with relative ease
- more grandiosity than 1w9


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Night Huntress said:


> I think the second part of your post is more accurate than the first, but I would phrase it differently -- any person under pressure can resort to passive-aggressiveness as a "safer" defense mechanism than outright argument. Yes, the motivation often is conflict avoidance... and while 8s and 1s are less likely to avoid conflict than others, I don't think the Enneagram says only some types can be "truly" passive-aggressive (what does it even mean to showcase TRUE passive-aggressiveness? Is there something such as false passive-aggressiveness?). I definitely think it's incorrect to classify an entire type (as you said, 6, 2, 4, and 3) as somehow owning the negative trait of passive-aggressiveness.


yeah, I probably could have worded that a bit more precisely (I probably had a few bad experiences in mind when I was writing it lol). 



> Additionally I do think 9s can be passive-aggressive. They can be unwilling to accept and "own" their fury and set the right boundaries for themselves, but feel pressurized to do so anyway, in stressful situations. That can lead to some convoluted methods of self-expression, and passive-aggressiveness is a good example of that.


I guess my point is that the passive-aggression of 9s is more....harmless? like, it's a little blip that goes away as soon as it came rather than anything substantial. with the other types listed, passive-aggression is weaponized more as a way of threatening or utilizing various forms of social manipulation (gas lighting, proxy-recruiting etc).


----------



## Daeva

Swordsman of Mana said:


> 1w9 with a 3w4 fix is a much more polite, polished personality. Magneto is rougher, more comfortable displaying consistent aggression (which, honestly, I don't think he really represses all that much, hence why I still have 8 on the table as a potential type).
> 
> the two is in (as a wing, a connection line and/or a fix)
> - obvious pride
> - cult-leader modus operandi
> - charisma and ability to draw people to his cause with relative ease
> - more grandiosity than 1w9


_- obvious pride
- cult-leader modus operandi
- charisma and ability to draw people to his cause with relative ease
- more grandiosity than 1w9_

... Sx/So :wink:


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Sun Daeva said:


> _- obvious pride
> - cult-leader modus operandi
> - charisma and ability to draw people to his cause with relative ease
> - more grandiosity than 1w9_
> ... Sx/So :wink:


good point, but insufficient imo (I don't think we could expect that kind of behavior if the Sx/So was, say, 5w6 for example lol). 1w9 with a 3w4 fix comes off very "British" most of the time. 3 is semi-reaction formation-y as it is, and both of these types are conscientious, concerned with what they consider "appropriate" behavior (for very different reasons, but it still double doses the conscientiousness)


----------



## Brains

Swordsman of Mana said:


> good point, but insufficient imo (I don't think we could expect that kind of behavior if the Sx/So was, say, 5w6 for example lol). 1w9 with a 3w4 fix comes off very "British" most of the time. 3 is semi-reaction formation-y as it is, and both of these types are conscientious, concerned with what they consider "appropriate" behavior (for very different reasons, but it still double doses the conscientiousness)


More Hank "Beast" McCoy?


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Brains said:


> More Hank "Beast" McCoy?


he's 5w6 So/Sx, not sure of the tritype (maybe 513?)


----------



## Animal

@*Swordsman of Mana*
Yeah, maybe you're right. What about 4w3 fix for Magneto??? I just..don't see 2...



@*Brains*
Beast is a 5w6 So/Sx.  The nerd with the hidden beast underneath.


----------



## Brains

@Animal @Swordsman of Mana

Yeah I know. But he has that 1+3 refinement going on, especially later on when he's grown up a bit.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> @*Swordsman of Mana*
> Yeah, maybe you're right. What about 4w3 fix for Magneto??? I just..don't see 2...


I can see a 4-fix for him. Shame seems pretty prevalent in him, but to be overcome with aggression/power. Refers to himself as "Frankenstein's monster." And his speech in Days of Future Past has a 4-ish quality to it. Also an INFJ quality. :wink:








> @*Brains*
> Beast is a 5w6 So/Sx.  The nerd with the hidden beast underneath.


Yes, The Beast is Hank's arrow to 8.
Still can't see Xavier as a 7... At least Patrick Stewart's portrayal is 1w2.

Another clip of Magneto as 1: "Perfection."


----------



## mistakenforstranger

pippylongstocking said:


> Hmm you maybe right. 9w1 6w? 2w3 ? Or 3w2? She definitely seems to fit type 9 abd seems 6ish at times maybe. But she is also very image conscious from what I remember? So I'm not sure. Maybe she has more of a 3 influence or something too...
> 
> It's been ages since I watched so I don't know.


Yes, I recently started up on the show again in the 4th Season, and from that I thought Betty was a 6w7, but when I looked into her in the first season (which had been a while for me too), she's very 9. And compare her to her friend Francine, who I think is a 6w7. Reactive type, loss of guidance, "What do I do? I thought you'd know what to do." Betty's so calming, but not all there:






As the show progressed, she's become more neurotic, paranoid, and accusing of others showing unhealthy line to 6. Doesn't trust anyone who she did in the past, like firing Carla out of the blue.



pippylongstocking said:


> But either way I love Betty Draper. I think a lot of people found her annoying which I can understand. But I really liked as a character, found her interesting, she amused me and I also felt sorry for her and I related to her... I think she might be an INTP.


I felt bad for her too, and didn't find her as unbearable as people made her out to be, but she's very unhealthy. I think she's an ISFJ, though. Far too controlling of herself and others to not be a J-type; also that strong 1-wing.

Roger Sterling - 7w8 sx/so






Don Draper - 3w4 sx/sp

A 3 among 4s/6s


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> I can see a 4-fix for him. Shame seems pretty prevalent in him, but to be overcome with aggression/power. Refers to himself as "Frankenstein's monster." And his speech in Days of Future Past has a 4-ish quality to it. Also an INFJ quality. :wink:


Yeah. His line to 4 is clear as day, which isn't the case for 1s who don't have 4 fixes. I know three 1s in real life.. two of them have 3 fixes (one is my mom) and the line to 4.. I can see it because I have mutant superpowers to see the heart  but most people would have to dig for it. Magneto can make stone-people cry, lol. I guess 4w3 fix makes sense; plus it explains his emphasis on "be yourself" "be what you are" and his dramatic flair (given he'd be Sx-So combined with 4w3 fix).

As for INFJ..

First of all, introvert is off the table. He is ALL ACTION. He is reaching out to people, causing things to happen. INFJ's will sit and think about who they are and get in Ni-Ti loops. This is not him. Fe-Se loops? YES. The guy won't stop. and it's not because he's a 1. Introverts simply need to stop and be in themselves. He is an extrovert hands-down.

As for ENFJ vs ENTJ. This speech... I see what you mean, it's a bit more warm and oriented toward the heart. Like "this is what I'm making you feel." But... hm.. ENTJs can be brilliant moving speakers too. I need to think this one over. The actor who plays him is an ENFJ, so I need to make sure I'm typing the character and not the actor. I'll think about it.



> Yes, The Beast is Hank's arrow to 8.


YES. And notice how he's not quite comfortable with it.....



> Still can't see Xavier as a 7... At least Patrick Stewart's portrayal is 1w2.


No he's a straight up social 7 idealist, wanting to bring everyone together in this 7ish way.. have you seen this description btw?? I am not a fan of "descriptions" as you know, but I think this provides a pretty accurate context for what social 7 extroverts are like. (And he is definitely a Fe dom, the character )

http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...ocial-sevens-according-beatrice-chestnut.html

He's so positive, and "let's all be friends" and all-loving. This is not what 1w2s are like. They're still stiff cynical 1s. 7s are the true idealists of the enneagram who think we can all get along. When he's unhealthy he's kind of a hippy lol. He just lets loose, lets it all go, lets his hair grow. He's also a charmer. His line to 5 comes out later. "Cerebro" and being a telepath is also a very head-type power, and it makes so much sense with 7s broader mind-focus and then integrating to 5, being the voice of everyone, the omniscient knowledge..... but coming from a place of experience and comraderie (7 wisdom - wisdom is about having experienced something, it's more personal & interpersonal whereas omniscience is simply knowing). I do think it's relevant what their powers are - it is a reflection of their personality and their type.



> Another clip of Magneto as 1: "Perfection."


So beautiful, this scene. I swear there are so many scenes of his that bring tears to my eyes. I think Mystique is an image type, probably a 3w4. The chameleon. Magneto IS perfection. It's so fucking aggravating that he suffers so much, and that is probably the thing that addicts me to Xmen the most.


----------



## Vermillion

Swordsman of Mana said:


> yeah, I probably could have worded that a bit more precisely (I probably had a few bad experiences in mind when I was writing it lol).


I figured ^^



> I guess my point is that the passive-aggression of 9s is more....harmless? like, it's a little blip that goes away as soon as it came rather than anything substantial. with the other types listed, passive-aggression is weaponized more as a way of threatening or utilizing various forms of social manipulation (gas lighting, proxy-recruiting etc).


Hmm. The passive-aggressiveness of 9s isn't as vampiric as that of a 2, perhaps, but manipulation doesn't have to seem threatening or malicious to be manipulation, imo. For example, a shy phobic 6 can identify as someone innocent who doesn't engage in manipulation, but they could place hard limits on everyone's actions because they are not interested in facing any risks. It is an inverted form of increasing control over the situation -- by barring certain activities that are classified as "scary" from the list, the 6 -- who typically projects their own power and courage onto the environment and hence feels powerless -- is actually retaining control over the situation and using their power to maintain a closeted, reassuring security. 

Similarly, the 9 who relinquishes their own needs, boundaries, and internal fury/energy for the sake of easy adaptation and comfort, can retain power over the situation by voluntarily _choosing_ inaction. In doing so, they suspend the situation in an eternal, comfortable limbo where they can forget about their indecision and go to sleep over their problems. It is an inverted, self-serving, and passive form of manipulation, especially if other people are involved in the decisions they take. 

So I believe even seemingly harmless actions can have a twisted manipulative significance to them, even if the person in question doesn't even intend to manipulate. Personally, I've met many melodramatic 9s who "manipulate" the situation by being stubborn and refusing to adapt no matter WHAT, making the other people helpless.

As for maliciousness, threatening, or gas-lighting -- I think that's just typical of severely unhealthy people in general, and isn't limited to any specific type. All of that is just totally fucked up and indicative of some kind of mental health issue, which isn't even in the realm of Enneagram any more.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

Night Huntress said:


> Hmm. The passive-aggressiveness of 9s isn't as vampiric as that of a 2, perhaps, but manipulation doesn't have to seem threatening or malicious to be manipulation, imo.


_vampiric_, that's a very good word for the 2 in general :tongue: 



> For example, a shy phobic 6 can identify as someone innocent who doesn't engage in manipulation, but they could place hard limits on everyone's actions because they are not interested in facing any risks. It is an inverted form of increasing control over the situation -- by barring certain activities that are classified as "scary" from the list, the 6 -- who typically projects their own power and courage onto the environment and hence feels powerless -- is actually retaining control over the situation and using their power to maintain a closeted, reassuring security.


that makes sense. in my experience, it's actually the more phobic 6s who are the passive-aggressive ones. cp6s tend to more "out with it" and don't feel as much of an urge to hide their aggression for the sake of appearing harmless.

So I believe even seemingly harmless actions can have a twisted manipulative significance to them, even if the person in question doesn't even intend to manipulate. Personally, I've met many melodramatic 9s who "manipulate" the situation by being stubborn and refusing to adapt no matter WHAT, making the other people helpless.



> As for maliciousness, threatening, or gas-lighting -- I think that's just typical of severely unhealthy people in general, and isn't limited to any specific type. All of that is just totally fucked up and indicative of some kind of mental health issue, which isn't even in the realm of Enneagram any more.


it is indicative of certain unhealthy types. ex: far more likely an unhealthy 2 or 6 will gaslight than an unhealthy 8 (who will either lash out immediately at you or crawl into a corner and wait for a chance to kill you, depending on subtype, MBTI, etc. if you listen believe Naranjo, they might straight up rape you lol**), an unhealthy 1 (who because zealous, often bigoted, cold, only concerned with their ideals and ceasing to be able to even care about people) or unhealthy 5 (unhealthy 5 is more "35 year old loser who's still in his mother's basement playing WoW because he's too agoraphobic to leave his den and get a real job"). 

sorry if it seems like I'm picking on 6s (I provided some contrasting examples of types at shitty health levels for balance. every unhealthy type sucks lol), but I still maintain that unhealthy 6s are viciously passive-aggressive. in fact, I'm going to go further, because I've encountered it from more than 30 people (I'm not exaggerating), and it's pretty much a constant of unhealthy 6s unless they're extremely counter-phobic (unhealthy 6s on the extreme end of counterphobia are holding back aggressive impulses pretty much 24 hours a day, I've seen it over a dozen times, including one of my best friends who is suffering from extreme poverty and health issues)

**he actually does say that. I didn't make that up :laughing:


----------



## Vermillion

Swordsman of Mana said:


> _vampiric_, that's a very good word for the 2 in general :tongue:


Yes I know  I use it in relation to them quite a lot.



> that makes sense. in my experience, it's actually the more phobic 6s who are the passive-aggressive ones. cp6s tend to more "out with it" and don't feel as much of an urge to hide their aggression for the sake of appearing harmless.


Yeah, especially as 6s in the grip of counterphobia WANT to appear aggressive and direct, not cut corners.



> it is indicative of certain unhealthy types. ex: far more likely an unhealthy 2 or 6 will gaslight than an unhealthy 8 (who will either lash out immediately at you or crawl into a corner and wait for a chance to kill you, depending on subtype, MBTI, etc. if you listen believe Naranjo, they might straight up rape you lol**), an unhealthy 1 (who because zealous, often bigoted, cold, only concerned with their ideals and ceasing to be able to even care about people) or unhealthy 5 (unhealthy 5 is more "35 year old loser who's still in his mother's basement playing WoW because he's too agoraphobic to leave his den and get a real job").


To be fair, our assumptions of "likelihood" are based on conceptual implications, and not actual, empirical correlations between a specific fear/core motivation and a negative behavior -- in this case, passive-aggressiveness and gaslighting. We don't have statistics from psychology stating that type 8s are 20% prone to passive-aggressiveness and type 2s are 70% prone to it, or whatever, because the Enneagram isn't a scientific system yet. Nor does it seem likely to be in the near future.

While we can logically and abstractly assume some actions are likelier than others, we have no way of knowing the actual likelihood just now. So the most accurate prediction we can make is that all types can manifest different behaviors, and what matters is WHY they behave the specific way they do.

I can definitely see an 8 gaslight someone by asserting their perspective, worldview, and decisions as better and more real than anyone else's (Sandra Maitri says that this is a distorted way of expressing the loss of Holy Truth). A 5 can assert that they, in their ivory tower, know much better and possess more information than the other individual, who they can call totally unintelligent and misinformed. Both these behaviors are in alignment with the Oxford Dictionary definition of gaslighting, which is:


> Manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity


So I think any seriously unhealthy person can do that.



> sorry if it seems like I'm picking on 6s (I provided some contrasting examples of types at shitty health levels for balance. every unhealthy type sucks lol), but I still maintain that unhealthy 6s are viciously passive-aggressive. in fact, I'm going to go further, because I've encountered it from more than 30 people (I'm not exaggerating), and it's pretty much a constant of unhealthy 6s unless they're extremely counter-phobic (unhealthy 6s on the extreme end of counterphobia are holding back aggressive impulses pretty much 24 hours a day, I've seen it over a dozen times, including one of my best friends who is suffering from extreme poverty and health issues)
> 
> **he actually does say that. I didn't make that up :laughing:


Oh I agree that unhealthy 6s can be greatly passive-aggressive because I've seen it happen with my own eyes. But I don't think they own the tendency more than any other type does, because any type can be passive-aggressive for a MULTITUDE of reasons, although we can agree that 8s and 1s are probably guilty of too much aggression rather than passive-aggressiveness -- though again, with no statistics, this is another assumption we make. In the light of that, I believe it's not fair to _isolate_ 2s and 6s for their passive-aggressiveness, because there's a difference between them possibly being passive-aggressive and being the only types that are capable of consistently showcasing passive-aggressiveness. Passive-aggressiveness is actually a fairly easy defense mechanism to resort to, because it arises out of the very _human _need to be cautious and sidestep conflict rather than take it head-on and face an attack stronger than the individual can handle.

edit: I'll also add that beyond loose correlations, I don't think we can isolate people of any specific type as owning any behaviors. I hold that opinion because humans are capable of accessing a wide variety of responses to situations and being fixated on specific issues/time periods of their life with the help of specific defense mechanisms that are not of their type. Like a 4 who's really into partying could feel like they need to stop being such hedonists and "plan" their life out more, superficially having 7-ish issues for that period in their life...


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> As for INFJ..
> 
> First of all, introvert is off the table. He is ALL ACTION. He is reaching out to people, causing things to happen. INFJ's will sit and think about who they are and get in Ni-Ti loops. This is not him. Fe-Se loops? YES. The guy won't stop. and it's not because he's a 1. Introverts simply need to stop and be in themselves. He is an extrovert hands-down.


Well, this is true about INFJs in Ni-Ti loops (See Shakespeare's Hamlet), but if they know what they want to do, then they will put their ideals into action. His demeanor is far more introverted. I'll have to watch it again, but I see Magneto at least as an INxJ. 



> As for ENFJ vs ENTJ. This speech... I see what you mean, it's a bit more warm and oriented toward the heart. Like "this is what I'm making you feel." But... hm.. ENTJs can be brilliant moving speakers too. I need to think this one over. The actor who plays him is an ENFJ, so I need to make sure I'm typing the character and not the actor. I'll think about it.


Yes, I think Steve Jobs is possibly an ENTJ, and he was a very charismatic speaker, who Fassbender also played in a movie. It's more because Magneto wants to create a mutant "brotherhood," which seems Fe in nature to me.



Animal said:


> No he's a straight up social 7 idealist, wanting to bring everyone together in this 7ish way.. have you seen this description btw?? I am not a fan of "descriptions" as you know, but I think this provides a pretty accurate context for what social 7 extroverts are like. (And he is definitely a Fe dom, the character )
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...ocial-sevens-according-beatrice-chestnut.html
> 
> He's so positive, and "let's all be friends" and all-loving. This is not what 1w2s are like. They're still stiff cynical 1s. 7s are the true idealists of the enneagram who think we can all get along. When he's unhealthy he's kind of a hippy lol. He just lets loose, lets it all go, lets his hair grow. He's also a charmer. His line to 5 comes out later. "Cerebro" and being a telepath is also a very head-type power, and it makes so much sense with 7s broader mind-focus and then integrating to 5, being the voice of everyone, the omniscient knowledge..... but coming from a place of experience and comraderie (7 wisdom - wisdom is about having experienced something, it's more personal & interpersonal whereas omniscience is simply knowing). I do think it's relevant what their powers are - it is a reflection of their personality and their type.


Still can't see it, but I'd be willing to consider 2w1. How you describe 7s as "Let's all get along" can be applied to 9s too, and Fe-doms. I did read the article, but I can't see it applying to him that much. It did say social 7s will appear 2-ish, though. I just see him focused on doing the "right" thing as his main motivation, and knowing what's best for others, being a guide for Erik and the mutants under his teaching. This is who he is, and isn't merely his stress arrow to 1, as it is in 7s. When he's unhealthy and let's himself go, that may be his stress arrow to 4. 



Animal said:


> So beautiful, this scene. I swear there are so many scenes of his that bring tears to my eyes. I think Mystique is an image type, probably a 3w4. The chameleon. Magneto IS perfection. It's so fucking aggravating that he suffers so much, and that is probably the thing that addicts me to Xmen the most.


No clue on Mystique, but yeah, 3 or 7 is what I was thinking of for her.


----------



## Animal

@*mistakenforstranger*

This is what social 2 looks like





"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me."

They are a power-type.

You don't hear Prof X thinking or caring about if people love him. He cares about THEIR OWN goodness. He is an idealist, not a power-triad.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> @*mistakenforstranger*
> 
> This is what social 2 looks like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I want people to be afraid of how much they love me."
> 
> They are a power-type.
> 
> You don't hear Prof X thinking or caring about if people love him. He cares about THEIR OWN goodness. He is an idealist, not a power-triad.


Yeah, your description of Prof X is a healthy xNFJ (idealist). Why wouldn't a 2 care about another's goodness that it has to reflect back to one's self (i.e. Michael Scott's narcissism)? Prof X is a healthy 2 or 1.

And Michael Scott's just a narcissist, but I don't see that quote or him as a 2. He's a 7 who wants to be the center of attention and have fun all day. Pam's the 2 (2w1) in The Office. Self-sacrificing martyr who helps everyone but herself.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Doesn't seem very Type 2. I love this quote so much! :laughing:






Also, this exchange, but I can't find the clip:

Michael: Pam?
Pam: Yeah?
Michael: Did you see Oprah yesterday?
Pam: No, I didn't.
Michael: I, uh... I am going to be a father.
Pam: What was Oprah about?
Michael: Angelina Jolie was on. And she adopted a baby from Asia, and she said that it changed her life. And that really inspired me. So, I want you to look into seeing how much a little Chinese baby would cost.
Pam: That's a really big decision.
Michael: I know.
Pam: Maybe you should wait before you adopt.
Michael: Well... 
Pam: Or not adopt.
Michael: Just do it, okay?
Pam: Roy's sister looked into it, and the application alone costs a thousand dollars.
Michael: Um... find out if there's a cheaper, less expensive baby out there, okay?
Pam: You know, she also said the waiting list is like eight months.
Michael: Eight months?
Pam: Yeah.
Michael: I don't even know if I'll want a baby in eight months.
Pam: You probably won't.
Michael: You know what, Pam? If in ten years, I haven't had a baby, and you haven't had a baby... 
Pam: No, Michael.
Michael: Twenty years.
Pam: No, Michael.
Michael: Thirty.
Pam: Sure.
Michael: It's a deal.

And this positive reframing. He's going to a paper convention haha!

Michael: Guess where I am going. I will give you a hint. It is a booze-fueled sex romp, where anything goes. You are correct, sir! I am headed to Philadelphia for the Annual Northeastern Mid-Market Office Supply Convention. And Jim Halpert is going to be coming, which will be fun. Poor little guy. He's been stuck working under Josh, the poor man's Michael Scott, as he is known around my condo.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yeah, your description of Prof X is a healthy xNFJ (idealist). Why wouldn't a 2 care about another's goodness that it has to reflect back to one's self (i.e. Michael Scott's narcissism)? Prof X is a healthy 2 or 1.
> 
> And Michael Scott's just a narcissist, but I don't see that quote or him as a 2. He's a 7 who wants to be the center of attention and have fun all day. Pam's the 2 (2w1) in The Office. Self-sacrificing martyr who helps everyone but herself.


A good example of a 2w1 Social is Dany in Game of Thrones. Do you watch GOT?? I can speak more about her - I don't watch the office, but I thought that quote itself was classic and pretty telling. Dany is a better example who I can talk about in more depth if you're familiar with GOT.

As for INFJ's being idealists - huh?? First of all Fi, if anything, is associated with personal ideals whereas Fe is associated with putting forth a mood/ atmosphere. 

Also, if you have to qualify someone's typing with "healthy" they're not that type. What about when Prof X loses all hope and blames himself for everything and just lets himself go? Is that 2 going to 8? I think not. Dany is 2 going to 8; she wants revenge. prof X just wants to blame himself for all his mistakes (7 low 1)

As a general rule when looking for someone's type, I look for their greatest and worst potential. Where they shine, and where the pitfalls are. I don't just assume because someone is nice (at surface) they're healthy. Prof X is a good nice person (to a fault) but to ignore his dark side is to overlook his humanity.

The dark side of 2s is power hunger, wanting to seduce, to be loved; doing anything in their power for it. The dark side of 7s is feeling like everything will work out, reframing the bad stuff into something better, and then crashing because they expected too much and for things to "just work out " and then reality kicked in.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Doesn't seem very Type 2. I love this quote so much! :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, this exchange, but I can't find the clip:
> 
> Michael: Pam?
> Pam: Yeah?
> Michael: Did you see Oprah yesterday?
> Pam: No, I didn't.
> Michael: I, uh... I am going to be a father.
> Pam: What was Oprah about?
> Michael: Angelina Jolie was on. And she adopted a baby from Asia, and she said that it changed her life. And that really inspired me. So, I want you to look into seeing how much a little Chinese baby would cost.
> Pam: That's a really big decision.
> Michael: I know.
> Pam: Maybe you should wait before you adopt.
> Michael: Well...
> Pam: Or not adopt.
> Michael: Just do it, okay?
> Pam: Roy's sister looked into it, and the application alone costs a thousand dollars.
> Michael: Um... find out if there's a cheaper, less expensive baby out there, okay?
> Pam: You know, she also said the waiting list is like eight months.
> Michael: Eight months?
> Pam: Yeah.
> Michael: I don't even know if I'll want a baby in eight months.
> Pam: You probably won't.
> Michael: You know what, Pam? If in ten years, I haven't had a baby, and you haven't had a baby...
> Pam: No, Michael.
> Michael: Twenty years.
> Pam: No, Michael.
> Michael: Thirty.
> Pam: Sure.
> Michael: It's a deal.
> 
> And this positive reframing. He's going to a paper convention haha!
> 
> Michael: Guess where I am going. I will give you a hint. It is a booze-fueled sex romp, where anything goes. You are correct, sir! I am headed to Philadelphia for the Annual Northeastern Mid-Market Office Supply Convention. And Jim Halpert is going to be coming, which will be fun. Poor little guy. He's been stuck working under Josh, the poor man's Michael Scott, as he is known around my condo.


Funny quotes and scene but I don't see how it's type related. What am I missing?


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> A good example of a 2w1 Social is Dany in Game of Thrones. Do you watch GOT?? I can speak more about her - I don't watch the office, but I thought that quote itself was classic and pretty telling. Dany is a better example who I can talk about in more depth if you're familiar with GOT.


Unfortunately, I have not seen GoT.



> As for INFJ's being idealists - huh?? First of all Fi, if anything, is associated with personal ideals whereas Fe is associated with putting forth a mood/ atmosphere.


I'm confused by this...Ni puts forth a new vision of how society should be (Ni-Fe). That's pretty idealistic, if you ask me, seeing as idealism is opposed to practicality/status quo. I think you're using Socionics, though, and I'm not very familiar with that system.



> Also, if you have to qualify someone's typing with "healthy" they're not that type. What about when Prof X loses all hope and blames himself for everything and just lets himself go? Is that 2 going to 8? I think not. Dany is 2 going to 8; she wants revenge. prof X just wants to blame himself for all his mistakes (7 low 1)


That might even be 1's unhealthy arrow to 4. I did see him as 1w2, but people said he's too cold to be a 1, so I considered 2, but from what you say, 1 sounds more likely w/ xNFJ "warm" disposition. I'll need to watch it again, so it's probably silly for me to keep arguing until I have a better idea. I just don't remember thinking he came across as a 7.



> As a general rule when looking for someone's type, I look for their greatest and worst potential. Where they shine, and where the pitfalls are. I don't just assume because someone is nice (at surface) they're healthy. Prof X is a good nice person (to a fault) but to ignore his dark side is to overlook his humanity.


Well, in terms of their "humanity," they are only characters.  It's not about him being nice, but about how he stands up for what is right and ethical, as opposed to Magneto's unhealthy twisted morality of Type 1, where he's a hypocrite in calling out others' evil ways while being evil in his methods. Magneto and Prof X are two sides of the same coin.



> The dark side of 2s is power hunger, wanting to seduce, to be loved; doing anything in their power for it. The dark side of 7s is feeling like everything will work out, reframing the bad stuff into something better, and then crashing because they expected too much and for things to "just work out " and then reality kicked in.


I agree.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Unfortunately, I have not seen GoT.


Oh  you might enjoy it, if you have a stomach for violence. it's enneagram heaven!



> I'm confused by this...Ni puts forth a new vision of how society should be (Ni-Fe). That's pretty idealistic, if you ask me, seeing as idealism is opposed to practicality/status quo. I think you're using Socionics, though, and I'm not very familiar with that system.


I don't know what system you're using either.. :/

I do love this article though.
INFP vs INFJ: 5 Surprising Differences To Tell Them Apart

Although I don't recall if it has these points in it or not. It's great either way. 



> That might even be 1's unhealthy arrow to 4. I did see him as 1w2, but people said he's too cold to be a 1, so I considered 2, but from what you say, 1 sounds more likely w/ xNFJ "warm" disposition. I'll need to watch it again, so it's probably silly for me to keep arguing until I have a better idea. I just don't remember thinking he came across as a 7.


His motivations, fears and even his personality are 7. Just not your narcissistic conceited 7w8. I know what you mean.. he is more "2ish" but that's what social 7s can be like at surface. It's just to me he doesn't seem 2ish at all because there's no power hunger. And his line to 1 is too black & white and raw, like all 7s... it's not nuanced. Core 1s have a much more nuanced view of right and wrong, morality, reality etc. They integrate to 7 by letting go of that a little and just enjoying life or believing in good. (Serenity, the opposite of wrath.) Charles X doesn't have any wrath. He has an idealistic, rose-colored view of goodness. I happen to think Magneto's view makes more sense in the real world. If I knew them both, I would support Prof X instead of Magneto, I suppose, but I would constantly be up X's ass about his idealism. Much like Beast, I'd be working to build an army in the basement.  Because his idealism simply...will get him and his loved ones killed, if not all mutants. 1s NEED to be right; it's egoic; so it's not so much about a rose colored ideal as it is about making sure they've examined the implications and reality of their morality. It's about "be the change you wish to see," about action, about standing for what you believe in. Prof X does indeed stand for what he believes in, but there's no wrath (1), no power hunger or need to be loved for it (2).. it's all gluttony, that he wants to connect to everyone, he wants to learn , he wants to reach and see the minds of everyone (line to 5).. he wants to create a rose-colored world that matches his dreams.. when reality kicks in, he loses all his energy. Magneto does not, and neither would a 2 who would have a vengeful line to 8. When Magneto loses, his resolve only gets stronger.




> Well, in terms of their "humanity," they are only characters.


Bleh. Magneto makes me cry more than almost any human i've met. Maybe a traumatized 8w7 made me cry that much - my first love. HIs story was really tragic. Magneto touches my soul on so many levels. I can't NOT see the humanity in that.

Art imitates life & life imitates art. To me life IS art. I don't really draw a difference there.



> It's not about him being nice, but about how he stands up for what is right and ethical, as opposed to Magneto's unhealthy twisted morality of Type 1, where he's a hypocrite in calling out others' evil ways while being evil in his methods. Magneto and Prof X are two sides of the same coin.


Yeah... like I said I dn't think it's right and ethical. It's fuckn madness. He needs to defend himself and his loved ones or they'll get killed. People are evil . He needs to accept it. It's a cruel harsh world. Please put my 8 fix back to sleep. 



> I agree.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> Art imitates life & life imitates art. To me life IS art. I don't really draw a difference there.


I agree. I really enjoy finding characters I connect to, who I sometimes connect with more than I do with people in real-life. I guess, just in terms of the Enneagram the patterns might not fit as well since they're only characters and not human beings. The fact that many characters do follow the patterns says something about the quality of the writing or the truth of the Enneagram. Likely both.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> I agree. I really enjoy finding characters I connect to, who I sometimes connect with more than I do with people in real-life. I guess, just in terms of the Enneagram the patterns might not fit as well since they're only characters and not human beings. The fact that many characters do follow the patterns says something about the quality of the writing or the truth of the Enneagram. Likely both.


Yeah actually, as a writer myself, that is one of my "is this character realistic?" tests. I don't care what type they are, as long as I can see consistency. I would have other ways to think about consistency too, but enneagram is a good model for that. If I can see that the character at their worst and best lines up with one type (but NOT a stereotype), I can be pretty sure they're relatable/ realistic. If they're TOO obvious and easy to type, without any personal quirks that might throw someone off, then they're unrealistic as well.  Ideally, they should be exactly as difficult to type as a real person who has endured their level of trauma or lack thereof; and yet once I see that type, it should not be able to be unseen.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> And Michael Scott's just a narcissist, but I don't see that quote or him as a 2. He's a 7 who wants to be the center of attention and have fun all day. Pam's the 2 (2w1) in The Office. Self-sacrificing martyr who helps everyone but herself.


IMO Pam is a 9w1, not 2) I considered 2 for a bit, but I think her main problem is...inaction, being unable to stand up for what she wants, both she and Jim have these flashes of ambition, flashes of real drive, she holds onto these ambitions, you can tell she wants to make something of herself but has difficulty following through. 

Like this scene (terrible quality, sorry)





_

Hey. I wanna say something. I've been trying to be more honest lately, and I just need to say a few things. I did the coal walk. Just... I did it. Michael, you couldn't even do that. Maybe I should be your boss. Wow, I feel really good right now. Why didn't any of you come to my art show? I invited all of you. That really sucked. It's like sometimes some of you act like I don't even exist. Jim, I called off my wedding because of you. And now we're not even friends. And things are just, like, weird between us, and that sucks. And I miss you. You were my best friend before you went to Stamford. And I really miss you. I shouldn't have been with Roy. And there were a lot of reasons to call off my wedding. But the truth is, I didn't care about any of those reasons until I met you. And now you're with someone else. And that's fine. It's... Whatever. That's not what I'm... I'm not... Okay, my feet really hurt. The thing that I'm just trying to say to you, Jim, and to everyone else in the circle, I guess, is that I miss having fun with you. Just you, not everyone in the circle. Okay, I am gonna go walk in the water now. Yeah. It's a good day._

I mean, this could be 2, but I think for her this being such a big moment, I don't know, if seems 9 to me, a 9 finally asserting herself, and saying, like, _I miss you_...I don't know)

This scene...less indicative, just so beautiful I always want to link it) :crying:






Michael has been being told the whole day that his paper company isn't really respected, that everyone sees it as something that's going out of business, just sort-of a dying art (as well as seeing how his protogé Ryan didn't really value him the way he thought), Pam has been waiting for people to come to her art show, no one showed up, except for Oscar and Gil who said that it was 'motel art' - 'real art takes courage and honesty' 'well, those aren't Pam's strong points' and they're able to meet on the same level, Michael is impressed with it ("my God, these could be _tracings_"), impressed that one of his employees did this, wants to buy it, which makes Pam feels appreciated, Pam painted Dundler Mifflin and Michael feels like he's doing something that really matters, they're on the same level...

(Which is what kinda made me consider Two for Pam, she seems to get Michael like even Jim or Holly doesn't quite get him, but I still think...Nine is better for her. I just don't see really strong 2 themes for her. Her issue seems to be more...wanting to be _appreciated_, rather than wanting to be adored.)

As for Michael's type...I have lots of reasons I think he's a 2 (I did consider 7 but I think not, not really...7 fix though definitely, and dominant Ne) but like...






He thinks that because he's this great funny boss that his employees are going to love him and be his family.


----------



## Brains

re: Magneto functionally:

No way he's an INFJ. They're Te-allergic and don't have much focus on Se, which are the two most assertive functions, but Magneto is outwardly, constantly assertive. You see that in both NTJs and in ENFJs far, far more than in INFJs. Furthermore, ENFJs relate to social situations as playing games - they play off Fe-Se charm with a certain cocksureness. Not the case with the INFJ, who's a Ni-Ti type: The Fe is more attuned to propriety than to bending others there.

Fassbender's Magneto I could maybe buy as ENFJ, but both his and especially Ian McKellen's Magneto strike me as heavily NTJ: Personal conviction in a fiery, Feeling-based style that doesn't give two fucks what others think of him, frankness, cynicism, a flair for the dramatic, a Te-Se "this is how things are, now let's do something about it" mentality, yet that active mentality is more detached, cold, analytical, principled than experiential overall - contrast with Wolverine who's very much an overall experiential character who has a similar can-do-lets-do attitude and also doesn't give a shit how he comes across to most people (contrast both to Beast, for example).


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> His motivations, fears and even his personality are 7. Just not your narcissistic conceited 7w8. I know what you mean.. he is more "2ish" but that's what social 7s can be like at surface. It's just to me he doesn't seem 2ish at all because there's no power hunger. And his line to 1 is too black & white and raw, like all 7s... it's not nuanced. Core 1s have a much more nuanced view of right and wrong, morality, reality etc. They integrate to 7 by letting go of that a little and just enjoying life or believing in good. (Serenity, the opposite of wrath.) Charles X doesn't have any wrath. He has an idealistic, rose-colored view of goodness. I happen to think Magneto's view makes more sense in the real world. If I knew them both, I would support Prof X instead of Magneto, I suppose, but I would constantly be up X's ass about his idealism. Much like Beast, I'd be working to build an army in the basement.  Because his idealism simply...will get him and his loved ones killed, if not all mutants. 1s NEED to be right; it's egoic; so it's not so much about a rose colored ideal as it is about making sure they've examined the implications and reality of their morality. It's about "be the change you wish to see," about action, about standing for what you believe in. Prof X does indeed stand for what he believes in, but there's no wrath (1), no power hunger or need to be loved for it (2).. it's all gluttony, that he wants to connect to everyone, he wants to learn , he wants to reach and see the minds of everyone (line to 5).. he wants to create a rose-colored world that matches his dreams.. when reality kicks in, he loses all his energy. Magneto does not, and neither would a 2 who would have a vengeful line to 8. When Magneto loses, his resolve only gets stronger.


I just watched Days of Future Past, and we have very different interpretations of the characters. I'm even more sure of him being a 1w2 now. When we find him at the beginning, he's in a self-loathing pit of despair/carelessness and feeling sorry for himself at having failed the mutants and for losing Raven/Mystique to Erik, which is very 1 disintegration to 4. ENFJ 1w2.

I don't even know if I can see Magneto as a 1. 8 seems more likely now, but 1 is possible too.



Brains said:


> re: Magneto functionally:
> 
> No way he's an INFJ. They're Te-allergic and don't have much focus on Se, which are the two most assertive functions, but Magneto is outwardly, constantly assertive. You see that in both NTJs and in ENFJs far, far more than in INFJs. Furthermore, ENFJs relate to social situations as playing games - they play off Fe-Se charm with a certain cocksureness. Not the case with the INFJ, who's a Ni-Ti type: The Fe is more attuned to propriety than to bending others there.
> 
> Fassbender's Magneto I could maybe buy as ENFJ, but both his and especially Ian McKellen's Magneto strike me as heavily NTJ: Personal conviction in a fiery, Feeling-based style that doesn't give two fucks what others think of him, frankness, cynicism, a flair for the dramatic, a Te-Se "this is how things are, now let's do something about it" mentality, yet that active mentality is more detached, cold, analytical, principled than experiential overall - contrast with Wolverine who's very much an overall experiential character who has a similar can-do-lets-do attitude and also doesn't give a shit how he comes across to most people (contrast both to Beast, for example).


After watching it, I am leaning towards INTJ 8, but in any case, he's an Ni-dom. Magneto sees into the future and acts according to his foresight. He isn't extroverted. INFJ isn't off the table for me, though, because of how he has a "greater good" mentality, but it's very twisted and only used to help the mutants for their protection. Whereas Charles, who I think is an ENFJ, wants to embrace everyone (mutants and humans) in peaceful co-existence. Magneto's vision of a new world comes first and that's what is important.

Wolverine's also an ISTP, so he's experiential due to Ti-Se, and inferior Fe in not caring how he comes across. Hank's an INTP, I believe.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> IMO Pam is a 9w1, not 2) I considered 2 for a bit, but I think her main problem is...inaction, being unable to stand up for what she wants, both she and Jim have these flashes of ambition, flashes of real drive, she holds onto these ambitions, you can tell she wants to make something of herself but has difficulty following through.
> 
> Like this scene (terrible quality, sorry)
> 
> _
> Hey. I wanna say something. I've been trying to be more honest lately, and I just need to say a few things. I did the coal walk. Just... I did it. Michael, you couldn't even do that. Maybe I should be your boss. Wow, I feel really good right now. Why didn't any of you come to my art show? I invited all of you. That really sucked. It's like sometimes some of you act like I don't even exist. Jim, I called off my wedding because of you. And now we're not even friends. And things are just, like, weird between us, and that sucks. And I miss you. You were my best friend before you went to Stamford. And I really miss you. I shouldn't have been with Roy. And there were a lot of reasons to call off my wedding. But the truth is, I didn't care about any of those reasons until I met you. And now you're with someone else. And that's fine. It's... Whatever. That's not what I'm... I'm not... Okay, my feet really hurt. The thing that I'm just trying to say to you, Jim, and to everyone else in the circle, I guess, is that I miss having fun with you. Just you, not everyone in the circle. Okay, I am gonna go walk in the water now. Yeah. It's a good day._
> 
> I mean, this could be 2, but I think for her this being such a big moment, I don't know, if seems 9 to me, a 9 finally asserting herself, and saying, like, _I miss you_...I don't know)
> 
> This scene...less indicative, just so beautiful I always want to link it) :crying:
> 
> Michael has been being told the whole day that his paper company isn't really respected, that everyone sees it as something that's going out of business, just sort-of a dying art (as well as seeing how his protogé Ryan didn't really value him the way he thought), Pam has been waiting for people to come to her art show, no one showed up, except for Oscar and Gil who said that it was 'motel art' - 'real art takes courage and honesty' 'well, those aren't Pam's strong points' and they're able to meet on the same level, Michael is impressed with it ("my God, these could be _tracings_"), impressed that one of his employees did this, wants to buy it, which makes Pam feels appreciated, Pam painted Dundler Mifflin and Michael feels like he's doing something that really matters, they're on the same level...
> 
> (Which is what kinda made me consider Two for Pam, she seems to get Michael like even Jim or Holly doesn't quite get him, but I still think...Nine is better for her. I just don't see really strong 2 themes for her. Her issue seems to be more...wanting to be _appreciated_, rather than wanting to be adored.)


Oh, I love those scenes! I'm with you, and did consider Pam as a 9 too, but the main reason is because she's a reactive, heart type. Jim's a definite 9. The campfire scene with Pam I see as more 2 --> integration to 4 (being honest), in addition to her interest in painting/art school. 

And if you remember this scene it's very 9 vs 2. Jim's passive-aggressive anger and Pam's guilt trip.







This basically sums up their relationship in the last season.



> Both Twos and Nines tend to give away their power and to go along with the agendas of others. Yet, one of the parties will have to wear the pants in the family, taking charge and making decisions. Doing so goes against the grain of both types, although either will take charge if necessary. However, negotiating power and decision making in a Two/Nine couple puts both parties under increasing stress and both tend to feel that they are being forced into the bad guy role in the family—and that they will be resented and unloved while their partner gets off the hook.
> 
> Further, neither finds it easy to talk about their feelings or their growing discontent with the power balance in the relationship, or with any other sources of resentment and potential conflicts that they may have. Twos tend to actually take over too much, becoming domineering and controlling, not hesitating to boss the Nine around and to speak with surprising harshness to him or her. But because Twos can rationalize their motives and see themselves only as all loving, they can continue without feeling guilty or embarrassed.
> 
> Nines find it difficult to find their own voice and to speak up for themselves. *But when the Nine actually does speak up, the Two often takes this as a lack of gratitude and tries to turn the Nine’s comments around on them.* *Twos are not good at taking criticism, and when Nines find the courage to speak up, they may go overboard with a load of old resentments that have pilled up. The result is that Nines withdraw into silence and become passive-aggressive as a way of dealing with their anger, while Twos feel unappreciated, misunderstood, and rejected. *Both try to keep everything quiet and normal on the surface, although they begin to deteriorate into longer silences with each other-and more distance, including less physical contact. An air of tension takes over, punctuated by angry outbursts and recriminations. The couple that seems so unassuming and supportive tends to end through attrition and drifting apart. Nobody wants to talk about what has really happened, no body wants to take responsibility for the deterioration of the relationship, and things eventually simply fall apart.


Watch this whole episode if you get the chance to see Pam's reactive side. Jim's all calm and smoothing things over, while she even says to him later, "Am I over reacting? and "You should be more upset about this, too." It's something like that.






2 --> 8 perhaps?






Other 9s in The Office are Phyllis, Stanley, Kevin, possibly Holly and Toby.

Stanley's a 9 who reaches his breaking point. Pam's breaking point (campfire scene) isn't about anger, it's sadness (Heart type).


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> I just watched Days of Future Past, and we have very different interpretations of the characters. I'm even more sure of him being a 1w2 now. When we find him at the beginning, he's in a self-loathing pit of despair/carelessness and feeling sorry for himself at having failed the mutants and for losing Raven/Mystique to Erik, which is very 1 disintegration to 4. ENFJ 1w2.
> 
> I don't even know if I can see Magneto as a 1. 8 seems more likely now, but 1 is possible too.
> 
> 
> 
> After watching it, I am leaning towards INTJ 8, but in any case, he's an Ni-dom. Magneto sees into the future and acts according to his foresight. He isn't extroverted. INFJ isn't off the table for me, though, because of how he has a "greater good" mentality, but it's very twisted and only used to help the mutants for their protection. Whereas Charles, who I think is an ENFJ, wants to embrace everyone (mutants and humans) in peaceful co-existence. Magneto's vision of a new world comes first and that's what is important.
> 
> Wolverine's also an ISTP, so he's experiential due to Ti-Se, and inferior Fe in not caring how he comes across. Hank's an INTP, I believe.


We're never going to agree on this. You interpret enneagram itself very differently than I do, so it's like debating which one of our interpretations of the system is correct, which is not going to get anywhere.... >.< so I will just leave the conversation here. (Much like Bowie.) No disrespect or cruelty intended though, it just seems like at this point we need to agree to disagree.


----------



## Darkbloom

Michael is definitely a 2w3, so/sp?

Announcement:
Next week I'm beginning to watch GoT, I hope I'm joining GoT typing team soon)
Announcing it here so I'd actually have to watch it)))
Such long episodes :crying:


----------



## Angina Jolie

Still hoping someone has an idea on Vikings typing. I haven't tried typing through enneagram much at all so this is gonna be clumsy, but anyway, my 5 cents after watching all seasons (with a big break inbetween though)

*Ragnar Lothbrok:* *7w8 or 8w7 sx/so*. There's a lot of typing him as 8w7, but I'm not completely sure. Could, of course, still be - at times I see him as far more gut (anger) based. But he is such an explorer who needs MORE! I love how the theme song ''Fever Ray If I had a heart'' says: ''Give me MORE, give me MORE, give me MORE''. So perfect. But it's not really all of vikings who need more, Ragnar is the voice of it, he was the starter of it since becoming king. I think, he probably has 8 in his tritype and other strong connections to 8 because he does utilize anger a lot, but I do not see anger and power and dominance as his driving force as much as MORE. WHAT ELSE IS THERE for me to conquare, for me to see and learn! 



*Rollo Lothbrok:* He is a pickle for me. I don't see him as 6 though. I don't see fear as his driving force. The one typing that stood out to me about him was *9w8* which would be interesting. I think he's *Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx*. 
So he could still be either *9w8 or 8w9*. Sometimes I think maybe he's a 4 as he is just so envious of his brother, but I doubt he's image based.
The last season I think shows him integrate into a 3 or tapping him into his 3 integration point. After receiving the prophecy that he is meant for something big, he gains energy and trust in his own destiny, in his own value. And then, when he sees the opportunity, he goes and takes it. He finally takes his space and fills it. And his resentment towards his brother is so apparent even he knows it and understands it eventually. It's still hard to see him as a 9 because of the circumstances - a crazy killing machine, the peacemaker? But we have to understand that in those times it was the norm! He is also usually in the background, until he isn't.
What was interesting was the fortuneteller/profit saying ''the bear will marry the princess''. Referring to Rollo as the Bear. In enneagram, 8w9 is seen as the bear and he is definitely bear like, but I'm making a case for him being 9 this time, even though I'm not completely sold myself. But ti would be interesting.

Another thing about Rollo that I see as pretty 9ish is how he volunteered to be baptized. I see 2 reasons: dude doesn't care, he doesn't actually truly believe in anything; 9w8s have a tendency to jump into leadership roles or become assertive when no one else will or when other's, who seem incompetent, are leading and it can disrupt the harmony.


* *

















*Floki:* ohh, Floki. You neuroitic mofo. I would think *4w5* or second guess *6w5*. His energy is hectic and he's almost like always on needles. He probably also has 7 and 8 in his tritype. I don't know, haven't thought too much about his typing, but these are my first guesses.


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Oh, I love those scenes! I'm with you, and did consider Pam as a 9 too, but the main reason is because she's a reactive, heart type. Jim's a definite 9. The campfire scene with Pam I see as more 2 --> integration to 4 (being honest), in addition to her interest in painting/art school.
> 
> And if you remember this scene it's very 9 vs 2. Jim's passive-aggressive anger and Pam's guilt trip.


idk this is just Jim being a dick
I can see this as a fight between two 9s)




> Watch this whole episode if you get the chance to see Pam's reactive side. Jim's all calm and smoothing things over, while she even says to him later, "Am I over reacting? and "You should be more upset about this, too." It's something like that.


This is one of the episodes that really made me think 9))
Like, why would a Two even be mad about this?
For me this is exactly what Nines look like when they've found some boundary being crossed) Like...she doesn't even get immediately _angry_, doesn't scream and shout, she is no geyser of emotions, she becomes a tight-lipped ice queen and then chooses about the most sterile form of punishment - slapping someone, hard, among of circle of onlookers) 

It's like...strangely brutal revenge (for something stupid)in how cold it is but it's cold, I think 9ish, still pretty repressed. 8 anger isn't really cold like that I think, especially 2-.8 anger, it's a bit more free-flowing. 



> 2 --> 8 perhaps?


No :tongue:


> Other 9s in The Office are Phyllis, Stanley, Kevin, possibly Holly and Toby.


Phyllis - I think social 2
Stanley - _yes_, I agree
Kevin - I guess 9 works as well as anything
Holly - imo 7w6
Toby - 9 or a very very beaten-down 1



> Stanley's a 9 who reaches his breaking point. Pam's breaking point (campfire scene) isn't about anger, it's sadness (Heart type).


Everyone gets sad. Not just heart types. I agree 100% about 'did I stutter?' (Michael's reaction I think shows a decent line to 8, not really disintegration even). Can't find a video of Michael yelling at Stanley, or Jim (that happened once...) but if you recall... Compare the quality of his anger with Pam's. Or Stanley's. Both Pam and Stanley's anger is kinda...self-protecting, Stanley is letting his very loose but it still has a very...frigid quality, like it's been kept in ice for a very long time...Michael's is different

(Gotta go)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> This is one of the episodes that really made me think 9))
> Like, why would a Two even be mad about this?
> For me this is exactly what Nines look like when they've found some boundary being crossed) Like...she doesn't even get immediately _angry_, doesn't scream and shout, she is no geyser of emotions, she becomes a tight-lipped ice queen and then chooses about the most sterile form of punishment - slapping someone, hard, among of circle of onlookers)
> 
> It's like...strangely brutal revenge (for something stupid)in how cold it is but it's cold, I think 9ish, still pretty repressed. 8 anger isn't really cold like that I think, especially 2-.8 anger, it's a bit more free-flowing.


Did you watch the clip I posted? She reacts right away! She screams in the parking lot. That's her immediate reaction. Her "coldness" comes from her 1-wing. And anyways, she's a mess of emotions in that episode. I mean, who wouldn't be in that situation, but to say she doesn't "scream and shout" is missing the obvious. Yes, it's a weak punishment, but it's a slap (physical violence) nonetheless. If you remember earlier, she wanted to punch him; Toby even gives her tips on how to best do it, like he would as a passive-aggressive 9, taking his feelings out on Michael indirectly. It's out of character for her to be aggressive, which is why I say it's 2 --> 8. 

As far as the campfire scene:



> *INTEGRATION (TWO GOES TO HEALTHY FOUR)*
> 
> 
> 
> Integrating Twos become aware of how much they have denied their needs and their darker feelings-and how much they have deceived themselves about their motives. At Four, they begin to accept themselves more completely-not rejecting any aspect of themselves they find. Even their destructive feelings toward others can be held compassionately. *They are more honest with themselves (after the manner of a healthy Four) and discover humor and humanity in whatever feelings and impulses they have.* This gives Twos the ability to see themselves objectively and without shame-and with love and balance. They are also able to support others from the fullness of who they really are and to have greater intimacy with them because integrating Twos are more intimate with themselves. *Gradually and naturally, they become more authentic, expressive, sensitive, and creative in ways that are enriching to themselves and others.*


I can't find the scene, but remember the microwave and Pam's sign (1-wing, self-righteous), or the New Year's Resolution poster. 



> Oscar: [reading from a note on the microwave] "To whoever made the microwave mess: the microwave is a shared kitchen appliance. By not cleaning it up you are basically telling whoever follows that their time is less valuable, as they will have to scrub out your disgusting splatter. Sincerely, disappointed."Andy: That is just obnoxious.
> Oscar: No kidding.
> Pam: Yeah. Wait, what, the mess or the note?
> Oscar: The note. So "holier than thou".
> Angela: Hmm, I liked it.
> Pam: Don't you think the person who left the mess is the obnoxious one?
> Andy: No, the note is way more obnoxious than the mess.
> Meredith: Sincerely, disappointed? Get off your high horse, Richie.
> Pam: Just because someone likes things clean, doesn't mean they're rich.
> Meredith: Yeh, they're rich.









> Everyone gets sad. Not just heart types. I agree 100% about 'did I stutter?' (Michael's reaction I think shows a decent line to 8, not really disintegration even). Can't find a video of Michael yelling at Stanley, or Jim (that happened once...) but if you recall... Compare the quality of his anger with Pam's. Or Stanley's. Both Pam and Stanley's anger is kinda...self-protecting, Stanley is letting his very loose but it still has a very...frigid quality, like it's been kept in ice for a very long time...Michael's is different)


I realize that, but Pam's breaking point represents sadness rather than anger, like Stanley's. And, I don't see his anger as frigid. It's pretty real and explosive, especially for the Office. Michael gets angry? 

With Micheal, I can see where people are coming from with 2w3, but I also see a lot of 7. I tend to see him as 7 w/ 2-fix, while others see him as the opposite.


----------



## rockinlibrarian

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I guess my point is that the passive-aggression of 9s is more....harmless? like, it's a little blip that goes away as soon as it came rather than anything substantial. with the other types listed, passive-aggression is weaponized more as a way of threatening or utilizing various forms of social manipulation (gas lighting, proxy-recruiting etc).


Speaking as a 9, yeah, we can indeed be quite passive-aggressive but this is what it looks like:



Night Huntress said:


> Similarly, the 9 who relinquishes their own needs, boundaries, and internal fury/energy for the sake of easy adaptation and comfort, can retain power over the situation by voluntarily _choosing_ inaction. In doing so, they suspend the situation in an eternal, comfortable limbo where they can forget about their indecision and go to sleep over their problems. It is an inverted, self-serving, and passive form of manipulation, especially if other people are involved in the decisions they take.


We're like the MOST passive of passive-aggressives, but we definitely do it. And we're less likely to draw attention to the fact that we're doing it than other types. Like the guilt-tripping form of passive-aggressiveness, my mother-in-law is the master of this type (I'm not sure of her E-type, I usually think it's One because she always has to be right, but maybe with a really strong 2 wing?), it's a very OUT THERE type of passive-aggressive, YOU'D BETTER KNOW how much you're disappointing her. We 9s won't likely be so forthright, but that's not to say we won't make your life difficult anyway. And if you call us out on it, we might be like, "whoops, I guess I forgot about that" but we totally forgot on purpose?



Animal said:


> As a general rule when looking for someone's type, I look for their greatest and worst potential. Where they shine, and where the pitfalls are.


That's some awesome advice on how to type. Might be why I tend to agree with your typings.


----------



## Angina Jolie

I disagree, those aren't the only ways a 9 can be passive-aggressive. In passive-aggression the aggressive side comes into passiveness in small details that are kinda unnoticable. It's a subconscious impulse that often can actually play and trick your own ''conscious awareness''. _''What, I put that smiley because I'm really just asking''_... while in reality, you put that smiley there because a subconscious part of you wasn't done with just text, that part was trying to be expressed.

I have definitely done the regular passive-aggressive acts. That includes not letting go of a conversation for instance. On the outside to me it might look like i'm conversing in a nice tone but I'm keeping it up actually because a part of me isn't satisfied with it ending nicely. 
Caps locks, smileys, kept up conversations.... all that jazz. It was my dissatisfaction and anger building up and leashing out through tiny details of communication.


----------



## Animal

rockinlibrarian said:


> Speaking as a 9, yeah, we can indeed be quite passive-aggressive but this is what it looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> We're like the MOST passive of passive-aggressives, but we definitely do it. And we're less likely to draw attention to the fact that we're doing it than other types. Like the guilt-tripping form of passive-aggressiveness, my mother-in-law is the master of this type (I'm not sure of her E-type, I usually think it's One because she always has to be right, but maybe with a really strong 2 wing?), it's a very OUT THERE type of passive-aggressive, YOU'D BETTER KNOW how much you're disappointing her. We 9s won't likely be so forthright, but that's not to say we won't make your life difficult anyway. And if you call us out on it, we might be like, "whoops, I guess I forgot about that" but we totally forgot on purpose?


Love the honesty.  



> That's some awesome advice on how to type. Might be why I tend to agree with your typings.


Aw shucks :blushed: glad if you found it helpful 

I think of real people that way too... the basic core of someone doesn't change, but they kind of.. move along an axis. They can change tremendously, either through experience or choice, but still will remain within a certain range of character that they were born with. I think that is what's crucial with enneagram - finding the underlying _axis_ which underlies the entirety of someone's experience.


----------



## Dangerose

Passive-aggression: (as a 2 or 6)

I think I always know when I'm doing it, unless I really don't. I mean, there are times when I think...'am I gonna confront this?' and then think 'no' either because I don't want to create a conflict or because I'm not actually sure if I'm justified, I'll kinda take a step back and give some passive-aggressive response instead

But it's more for the purpose of informing them in a sly way that I am not blind to their [whatever it is]. Maybe a bit of a 'warning' lol (not that I think of it like that). Like 'I did notice and I won't be saying anything but I am prepared to'

But more just because it bugs me to be nice if I sense some friction or presumption or something

So idk, that might not be true passive-aggressiveness in the full sense of the world. I don't know if I'm ever like that. I don't know if I'd know though 

One thing I do that's pretty passive-aggressive is, like, if I feel like someone doesn't like me, I'll kinda...keep pushing them, almost, either being extra-friendly or just not giving them an out, somehow, or keep being whatever it is they don't like, in their face...by which I guess I want to either force them to like me, force them to deal with me, or force them to yell at me and be out with it

(Also, I mentioned in another thread that if I see that people are getting really frustrated about not being able to find something and I know where the thing is, I'll be so annoyed by their frustration that I'll hide the thing or put it in some more confusing location, just to frustrate them further, in my mind I am teaching people to roll with the situation))

So that's passive-aggressive, I think, as well as just blindly cruel)

(I guess, if I feel people shouldn't be upset about something, I try to keep upsetting them about it until they realize how stupid they're being, which never happens...there's some strange logic there though)

(More on The Office types, later, don't have a lot of time, just wanted to throw in my two cents about passive-aggressiveness

(That said, it doesn't bug me. Or I don't recognize it. Or something).


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> We're never going to agree on this. You interpret enneagram itself very differently than I do, so it's like debating which one of our interpretations of the system is correct, which is not going to get anywhere.... >.< so I will just leave the conversation here. (Much like Bowie.) No disrespect or cruelty intended though, it just seems like at this point we need to agree to disagree.


I don't think we have that different of interpretations of the system itself, but we do have different takes on the characters/celebrities. You say Xavier has an "idealistic, rose-colored view of goodness," and therefore Type 7. To me, yes he's idealistic, but it isn't rose-colored. It's based in what he believes is the "right" way, the way humans and mutants should act towards one another, and that everyone should behave according to this same standard or "vision" that he has. He has high expectations, and wants to show the world that mutants are "good". He is the ethical conscience of the X-Men. Wolverine says he's a "guide." That's why he gets into other people's heads to persuade them to do the right thing. And it's also why Erik wears the helmet, so Charles can't control him, which leads to my next point about Magneto as an 8. For Erik, it's about the mutants having the power/control over humans, and much of his behavior in seeking revenge is to take back his sense of powerlessness lost at an early age. Erik isn't an unhealthy 1 who thinks he's on the right side of good but still committing atrocities or being hypocritical (Yes, I made that point earlier in your support of your case for 1), but it's about protecting his fellow kind by any means necessary and becoming a superhuman race. Humans are weak to him, and he's convinced they're bent on destroying the mutants, if not now then in the future. Yes, he has his "idealistic" cause, but 8s do too, and it's one about taking back control/power not a misguided moral crusade.



> Eights are the true “rugged individualists” of the Enneagram. More than any other type, they stand alone. They want to be independent, and resist being indebted to anyone. They often refuse to “give in” to social convention, and they can defy fear, shame, and concern about the consequences of their actions. Although they are usually aware of what people think of them, they do not let the opinions of others sway them. They go about their business with a steely determination that can be awe inspiring, even intimidating to others.
> 
> Although, to some extent, Eights fear physical harm, far more important is their fear of being disempowered or controlled in some way. Eights are extraordinarily tough and can absorb a great deal of physical punishment without complaint—a double-edged blessing since they often take their health and stamina for granted and overlook the health and well-being of others as well. Yet they are desperately afraid of being hurt emotionally and will use their physical strength to protect their feelings and keep others at a safe emotional distance. Beneath the tough façade is vulnerability, although it has been covered over by layer of emotional armor.


Riso-Hudson's description about the relationship between 1s and 8s. It's the best explanation based on the combination of types of their friendship and their falling-out.



> *Enneagram Ones and Eights bring a common concern with fighting for truth and justice in their world. They both often feel (although in different ways and for different reasons) that it is up to them to stand against whatever they perceive as injustice or falseness. Both can see themselves as gallant crusaders protecting the weak, righting wrongs, and making the world a better place. In a relationship, these two types are both action-oriented, and if their attention and energy is turned toward social causes in particular, they can have a big effect on their family and their community, perhaps even their country or the world. Both bring a certain nobility of vision and a focused purpose, practicality, and perseverance in supporting whatever they believe is right. Both are willing to sacrifice a great deal to do what they believe needs to be done. For both, fairness is centrally important. (Ones bring a sense of absolute or ideal truth and justice whereas Eights bring a more practical and immediate approach to these concepts.)*
> 
> The combination can be very powerful: they accomplish things with a clear cut sense of purpose and personal mission. Both are decisive and direct, although Eights bring a passion and gusto that counterbalances the One’s self-restraint and propriety. Ones can find Eights exciting, physical, and earthy-all the things that they restrain in themselves. Thus, there can be a strong attraction from both sides. Further, Eights recognize that Ones are as strong-willed and determined as they are: they cannot easily sway or bowl over Ones. Eights thus admire their conviction and are attracted to the challenge of getting closer to Ones. *In many ways, these two types are opposites-the pirate and the schoolteacher-although both could learn a great deal from the other, if they are willing to listen to someone with such different values, reactions, and ways of doing things.*
> 
> Potential Trouble Spots or Issues
> 
> *What breaks Ones and Eights up is often the very thing that attracted them in the first place: how different they are from each other, like fire and ice. This is a relatively rare romantic pairing; it is easier for them to be friends or colleagues than to live intimately together. Both want to be in charge; both want to accomplish something significant, but they tend to disagree about the means to take.* Ones tend to be self-controlled and restrained in their self-expressions and methods of doing things. They will deny themselves the pleasure of acting on their real desires and impulses if they are convinced that something they want is not right according to their moral convictions. *While they may admire the brashness and roguishness of Eights and their apparent ease in going after whatever they want, Ones ultimately begin to draw a line if they see Eights going too far in the pursuit of their self-interest. Ones can begin to regard Eights as selfish, insensitive, aggressive, and morally corrupt. They may admire the outlaw’s bravado, but abhor where it leads them and how much chaos and destruction it creates in its wake. Ones can begin to see Eights as crude, untrustworthy, and violent.*
> 
> *On the other hand, Eights see Ones as hypocrites who preach one thing publicly while doing the opposite privately. They see Ones as rigid, self-righteous, nitpicking, and utterly unrealistic about the way the world works. Eights often want to do more outrageous things just to provoke the morally judgmental One into apoplexy: both respond with anger before they will acknowledge hurt or fear. They can both get into rigid positions and feel that they cannot back down. Violent arguments can often ensue as the relationship flies apart in personal attacks.* *This is one relationship that is much more difficult to fix once a certain threshold of abuse has been crossed.*


And compare 1s vs 8s. 



> Both Ones and Eights are in the Instinctive Triad, both have strong wills, both are action-oriented, and both have strong notions about how to do things. However, Ones try to convince others to do the right thing (as they see it) from the standpoint of a moral imperative–because it is the right thing to do. They try to logically convince the other of the soundness of their views, but become irritated and less logical when others resists their reasoning. *Eights, on the other hand, rely on their own self-confidence, and attempt to sway others by their gutsy convictions and sheer personal charisma. (“I don’t know if it’s the right way, but it’s my way.”) Ones try to convert those who resist them: Eights try to power through them.*
> 
> The greatest misunderstanding between these two types involves their concern with justice, although the nature of their sense of justice can be quite different. Ones hold justice as an extremely important value–many judges, attorneys, advocates, and criminal prosecutors actually are Ones. Ones think a great deal about issues of providing suitable standards for human beings and about the specifics of how to administer a fair and equitable system. Ones at all Levels of Development refer to justice and think that they seek justice (no matter how skewed their interpretation of it may become). In any case, justice is a matter of principles–part of their idealism. They strive after justice and want to rectify injustices wherever they find them because, among other reasons, to do otherwise would be to fail to live up to their high moral standards and make them feel guilty.
> 
> *In Eights, justice is more of a visceral response, a reaction to witnessing injustices occurring. Eights, generally speaking, do not walk around thinking about these matters, but if they saw a helpless person being harmed or bullied by others, without thinking about it, Eights would rush in to “level the playing field.” For Eights, justice has little to do with abstract principles. Eights see themselves as protectors of others, and when they are healthy, they actually are. Eights are more likely to seek justice for “their people”–their family, friends, co-workers, ethnic group, and so forth. It is usually expressed in a concern that those in their care (or under their power and authority) be treated fairly.* The cowboy marshal protecting the town against criminals and the union chief negotiating a just wage for the rank and file are examples of this more restricted concern for justice. *With Eights, the sense of justice usually involves addressing an imbalance of power.* This is quite different from the One who seeks to make sure that people are appropriately rewarded for good actions and punished for bad ones.
> 
> Of course, in their unhealthy manifestations, both types can be extremely unjust. Ones will still believe that they are being fair–the punishments they are meting out are for the good of the person being punished, or at the very least, for the good of society. Ones feel they need to rationalize their punitive activities. Eights do not. *For unhealthy Eights, administering justice is simply meting out vengeance. (“You hurt me or my people, and I’ll destroy you.” “He ripped me off. Now he has to pay.”) Needless to say, others may question the “justice” in either of these types’ unhealthy behavior.*


Watch this clip again. It's his exact message: "_We are the ones who will inherit this Earth, and anyone who stands in our way will suffer the same fate._"...."_Today was meant to be a display of your power. Instead I give you a glimpse of the devastation my race can unleash upon yours_."








> The confusion between Eights and Ones probably also stems from the fact that some Ones may misidentify themselves as Eights since they would like to have the authority and influence of Eights. They may also recognize that they have aggressive impulses and misidentify themselves as an “aggressive type,” although they are really compliant to their ideals; the Eight is the true aggressive type par excellence. *On the other hand, Eights almost never misidentify themselves as Ones, viewing Ones as lily-livered and bloodless–moral only because they are too weak to be strong. Although Eights themselves are unlikely to think they are Ones, other people sometimes misidentify Eights as Ones because they see them as reformers. But clearly, many natural leaders, including Eights, lead reforms when they are needed.* Contrasting Ones such as Pope John Paul II, Ralph Nader, and Hilary Clinton with Eights such as Lee Iococca, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Barbara Walters gives a vivid sense of their differences.







You don't see how angry he is at Erik here? At this point, Charles is still disintegrated to 4, so he's more emotional than he usually is. And Erik's 8-viewpoint, "_You sacrificed your powers so you could walk?_"..."_Well, maybe you should have fought harder for them._" Also, Charles' 1 moral judgment: "_Dry your eyes, Erik._ _It doesn't justify what you've done._" And see how Erik points out Charles' hypocrisy seen in unhealthy 1's: "_Where were you Charles? We were supposed to protect them! You and Hank pretending to be something you're not! You abandoned us all_," as if to say cut the holier-than-thou crap, painting me as the "bad" guy who abandoned you. Look at yourself. And Wolverine haha..."So you were always an asshole." :laughing: He's an 8w9. 

Charles - 1w2 so/sx (See how he acts towards Raven/Mystique for sx-1ness, and how she resists being told what to do, or how she should be)
Erik - 8w7 sx/so


----------



## mistakenforstranger

> Social Sevens take on a lot of responsibility in the group or the family. In doing this, they express a
> sacrifice of gluttony for the benefit of others. They postpone their own desires in order to enact an
> ideal of service. As the name of this subtype suggests, “Sacrifice” means a willingness to be of
> service.
> 
> But where is the ego reward in this seemingly pure, unselfish personality strategy? *Part of the ego*
> *strategy of this subtype is that they want—crave—to be seen as good for their sacrifice. They have a*
> *hidden gluttony for the acknowledgment of their sacrifice—are hungry for love and recognition—*
> *and this hunger can be insatiable. These Sevens use their sacrifice to cover up defects and*
> *shortcomings and to invite recognition and admiration or love, because they don’t feel right*
> *legitimizing and acting on their desires and whims. Their sacrifice and service is the price they pay*
> *for their neurotic need for admiration.*
> 
> *Social Sevens are very idealistic, but their idealism is a mix of illusion, good intentions, and*
> *ingenuity that function together as an “intellectual drug” that motivates action. They’re very active,*
> *moved in an ongoing way by the ideals they want to translate into life to improve the world, but they*
> *need their idealism to help them to activate—they invest a lot in altruism, idealism, dedication, and*
> *sacrifice to make them feel more acceptable. They also tend to use the defense of rationalization to*
> *support the things they do in the name of altruism and idealism. Their idealism is in part based on*
> *rationalizing ideologies so that if any of their beliefs are proved wrong, they can simply replace it*
> *with another rationale and then explain this change as evolution.* Given this, they may have an
> underlying sense of panic about losing their idealism, as they fear that would ultimately lead to apathy
> and emptiness.
> 
> *Social Sevens’ focus on motivating themselves through idealism can take the form of a feeling of*
> *being on a mission—they may want to be “The Savior.”* They may at times criticize themselves for
> being naive and unrealistic, for wanting too much of mankind—and the Social Seven does have some
> youthful or adolescent qualities: they are provocative, enlightened, can be simplistic, and can get lazy
> when the task becomes too demanding. *And in addition to this, they may not be conscious of their*
> *own laziness, love of comfort, and narcissism.*





> Because of their enthusiasm and joyfulness, as well as their prominent desire to help and be of
> service, *Social Sevens can look like Twos—but while Twos focus primarily on others and don’t have*
> *as much of a connection with their own selves, Social Sevens are still primarily self-referencing, not*
> *other-referencing, so they will usually know what they need, even if they decide to sacrifice it.* Their
> desire to help is born of the need to go against a sense of self-interest, not just a desire for approval,
> so they have a more direct experience of their own needs and wants despite their tendency to make
> efforts to serve others or a higher good.


Yeah, deep down Michael is all about himself and his happiness, and wanting to avoid the inner pain of being alone. He's a big kid who has never grown up.

When a 7 meets a 1...






He starts his own company after he comes along to escape the "no-fun" rules imposed by Charles. He just wings it.






Such a 7:


----------



## Dangerose

Ok, Pam. Pam Pam Pam Pam Pam.


I'm not saying there's nothing 2ish about her, do think she has a 2 fix and there are some things with 9 and 2 that are similar. What I'm saying is that looking at the overall arc of her character, her overall personality, her break-through moments and her hang-ups...there are a lot of 9 issues and themes running through it, and not much of what I'd expect to see from a 2 character. 2s should have some focus on _need_, on dependency, on...image. All that I think you find in Michael's characterization (I'll have a whole different post about him), and in for instance Kelly's. Kelly is actually a great example of a 2 imo, if somewhat shallow...I'm 99% sure Mindy Kaling is a 2 herself and as one of the writers on the show I think that comes through a lot))

But Pam. To review her plotline (SPOILER ALERT! obviously) Pam starts the show having been engaged for some ungodly number of years to Roy who, while a decent guy at heart, obviously is not as committed as he should be, _takes Pam for granted_, and I think most importantly to her, does not believe or really care about her dreams. She remains in this relationship because - was it true love? was it neediness? - I don't think so, I think it's implied that for her, this situation is comfortable, safe, it doesn't even occur to her to break out of it. She knows she wants more, but doesn't really know where to find it. The question that haunts her is - am I always going to be a receptionist at this run-down paper company? She meets Jim who she has this genuine connection with, but she closes herself off to it, blinds herself to his affections, because - she can't deal with that. He encourages her with her dreams, encourages her to go to a design program. She obviously values this very highly. She doesn't want to ruin the status quo. But when Jim kisses her and confesses his love, it kinda - awakes her, like Sleeping Beauty, a 9 archetype) She doesn't actually act on her new feelings for Jim but she does break off the engagement with Roy. She starts trying to help herself. When Jim comes back with Karen, she kinda...shuts down again, until the moment in Beach Games where she comes out of her shell, inspired by the coal walk, by starting to try to own her own _competency_. Gets together with Jim, etc. etc. etc. Her next big moments are...with the Michael Scott Paper Company, she leaves with Michael because she sees a chance to be more than a receptionist. Then she promotes herself randomly in the Gabe era which was kind a big thing for her. And then...idk, the last seasons are so terrible

But, in terms of the words I italicized:

1. Pam feels taken for granted. Everyone can feel taken for granted, especially if they are, but...compare to Kelly, say...do you think Kelly would sit so quietly in a long engagement like that? (Some 2s might...honestly I can see myself doing it if I thought it was the only way...but there would be a lot more...uproar). Kelly would pull every sort of antic in the books to get to the finish line, possibly just dissolving the whole relationship. I think almost every 2 would maybe end up scaring off the other party by being _too much_. Maybe not some sorts of disciplined sp 2s. But like, in the world of The Office, Michael and Kelly are constantly scaring people off by being _too much_. Too needy, too turbulent, too ridiculous, too anything, too much. Pam doesn't have that problem. Pam's problem is that she's...this sounds terrible, don't have another way to phrase it..._not enough_. I mean I think if you tuned into the thoughts of a 2 the chorus would sound a bit like 'I'm too much, I'm too much' or perhaps 'the world is not enough'. With a 9 the chorus would be 'I'm not enough, I'm not enough'. Which is Pam's chorus. And Pam's never...too much, and she never feels like she's too much. She's often not enough and she often feels like she's not enough.

(I'm not saying that 9s are actually 'not enough', to be clear, but I think that can be their problem)

2. Competency, her focus is never really on 'am I lovable enough?' which is more of a Two theme, you see it with Michael, Kelly all the time. It's 'am I competent enough?' And it's like she knows the answer is 'yes' but can't quite find the strength to say it. 

Like, Kelly is obsessed with making Ryan love her. She's constantly worried about being pretty enough. Or whatever. Michael is all confidence, but it's pretty transparent that...his whole obsession is getting the whole world basically to like him. You can see them bonding over this here (Kelly sabotaged Dwight and Jim's customer service reports because they didn't come to her party, Michael calls her into his office for a stern talking-to...)






And that's just...not Pam's problem. She worries about getting noticed, sure, and has some normal concerns about Jim's loyalty or whatever when she's pregnant but you don't see it as a fixation for her, being loved...which is Pam's chief thing.

She's held back by being afraid to leave her comfort zone. She grows when she manages to move out of that comfort zone and assert herself. And she's...I mean, she's very mellow. Like this strikes me as a really 9ish moment (context:
_Jan: Great, great. And Pam, what about you? What is your dream?
Pam: Well... I always dreamed of a house with a terrace upstairs. Plant flowers on it... stuff like that. Since I was a girl. Um... More seriously though, a husband that I love... Roy. And I love to draw. And I... I did a little in college and I'd still love to do something where I could work with art or graphic design in some way.)_


----------



## Dangerose

I mean, both 2s and 9s can let themselves be taken advantage of, but it's different...with 2s it's more like they're taking something secretly, they're willing to pay too-high prices for love or whatever because of shame or neediness or something, with 9s they're rarely really getting anything in return, therefore they are more resentful, probably doesn't last as long, they just can't move to a place where they stand up for themselves.

Like Michael...lets himself be walked over by Jan, is forced to declare bankruptcy to keep up with her spending habits, etc., and Kelly, it goes without saying that she lets Ryan take advantage of her, but...fairly knowingly, considering. I mean in a way she's manipulating Ryan as much as he's manipulating her.






Ryan: Are you having fun in this relationship?
Kelly: *sobbing* Sometimes!
...

Kelly: Do you think I should diet?
Ryan: No, you're perfect.
Kelly: *screams*
Ryan: What, did you find it?
Kelly: No, I'm scared.
Ryan: All of a sudden.
Kelly. Mm-hm. Hold me!

But Pam's not like that at all

I mean I get that Kelly is an exaggeration of a 2

But still, I mean...Pam's not like that at _all_


----------



## Darkbloom

I dont remember Pam well so I am not gonna talk about her overall personality, but based on clips posted here, I'm not seeing disintegration to 8.
Where is the pride, _love_ need, manipulation? 
She's angry but it's not a very aggressive kind of anger, if that makes sense.

And as strange as it may sound, from my experience 9s are in a way much more prone to feeling taken for granted and unappreciated, compared to 2s. Yes 2s can too but it's much bigger. Pam even at what's apparently her angriest comes across as a very meek person, not prideful or demanding at all. 2s are grandiose, 2 idea of love is more "You're the only thing that matters to me in the entire universe, I'd die without you"* than "Good job, thank you!" (of course, that doesn't represent the depth of 9 love but 9s generally feel content to be recognized in what they are doing, to feel like they are contributing, doing something worthwhile)

*dramatic word use, but you get the idea, 2w1 so/sp I know, you can tell she has a view on love and respect that's...more, than just love and respect, even though she's 'colder' than a sx 2w3 would be for example (she's very, sometimes obnoxiously friendly, by colder I mean no that sx fire)


Btw I watched the first episode of GoT, it's better than the first time I tried to watch it!
And @Apple Pine the picture quality is amazing, especially for how little space it takes up on my poor phone, thank you for the links!
(Slow internet, didn't feel like going to the other thread to thank you )


----------



## rockinlibrarian

Moderately Nefarious said:


> And as strange as it may sound, from my experience 9s are in a way much more prone to feeling taken for granted and unappreciated, compared to 2s. Yes 2s can too but it's much bigger. Pam even at what's apparently her angriest comes across as a very meek person, not prideful or demanding at all. 2s are grandiose, 2 idea of love is more "You're the only thing that matters to me in the entire universe, I'd die without you"* than "Good job, thank you!" (of course, that doesn't represent the depth of 9 love but 9s generally feel content to be recognized in what they are doing, to feel like they are contributing, doing something worthwhile)


DUDE. Moderately Nefarious is a 2 who knows her 9s. Seriously, I just got back from a counseling session and this was EXACTLY WHAT WE DISCUSSED. I had said "It's not even that I wish the other members of my household would do more for me, it's just I wish they'd acknowledge what I AM doing!"


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I mean, both 2s and 9s can let themselves be taken advantage of, but it's different...with 2s it's more like they're taking something secretly, they're willing to pay too-high prices for love or whatever because of shame or neediness or something, with 9s they're rarely really getting anything in return, therefore they are more resentful, probably doesn't last as long, they just can't move to a place where they stand up for themselves.
> 
> Like Michael...lets himself be walked over by Jan, is forced to declare bankruptcy to keep up with her spending habits, etc., and Kelly, it goes without saying that she lets Ryan take advantage of her, but...fairly knowingly, considering. I mean in a way she's manipulating Ryan as much as he's manipulating her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan: Are you having fun in this relationship?
> Kelly: *sobbing* Sometimes!
> ...
> 
> Kelly: Do you think I should diet?
> Ryan: No, you're perfect.
> Kelly: *screams*
> Ryan: What, did you find it?
> Kelly: No, I'm scared.
> Ryan: All of a sudden.
> Kelly. Mm-hm. Hold me!
> 
> But Pam's not like that at all
> 
> I mean I get that Kelly is an exaggeration of a 2
> 
> But still, I mean...Pam's not like that at _all_


I agree Kelly's a love-starved 2w3, but she's also a sx/sp subtype and extroverted (ESFP). Pam's an introverted (ISFJ) 2w1 sp/so, so I don't think it's fair to compare them and say just because Pam's not like her then she isn't a 2. It's the same as if you'd compare Jim to Stanley. Jim's a social 9; Stanley's a self-preservation 9. Jim's an ENTP, Stanley's an ISTJ. They're going to look very different. And if you remember in one episode, both Pam and Kelly get in a competition over their boyfriends (Jim and Darryl). 



> Jim: Wow.
> Pam: Okay, it's not regulation size, but it'll do. You have to practice. You have to get real good and beat Darryl.
> Jim: Oh, I can't beat Darryl.
> Pam: Please? Kelly's trash talking me because Darryl is beating you.
> Jim: What, seriously? What is she saying?





> Jim: So you're asking me to defend your honor against Kelly?
> Pam: Sorta, yes.
> Jim: Bring me players.
> Pam: Okay.





> Pam: [watches Jim score in ping-pong against Darryl] Yes! Way to go. [looks at Kelly] See that?
> Kelly: Yeah, the floppy haired girl you date won a point.
> Darryl: 19, serving 4. [serves and scores]
> Kelly: Woooh! Nice baby! Nice one! [starts singing] Hey, hey, you, you! I don't like your boyfriend! Cuz, cuz, cuz, cuz, cuz he sucks at ping-pong!
> Pam: You know what? I'm sick of this! Let's go, you and me!
> Kelly: What?
> Pam: Let's go. Pick up a paddle.
> Kelly: OK. Bring it on.
> Pam: I am.
> Kelly: Think you can handle this?
> Pam: In my sleep.
> Kelly: OK. Volley for serve, P. [serves]
> Pam: O. [hits the ping-pong ball, and it hits the net] [serves] P.
> Kelly: O. [hits the ping-pong ball, and it hits the net]
> Jim: Do you want to go play on the table upstairs?
> Darryl: Yes.


I'm trying to take into account Pam's entire trajectory in the whole show, and while a case can definitely be made for Pam as a sx-9 in the first few seasons, she becomes a lot more focused on herself after she meets Jim, pursues her passion for art (arrow to 4), but does go back to Jim because the relationship is more important to her (2 > 4). I'm surprised that you can't see how their interaction on the phone where they fight isn't a great case of 2 vs 9. 2's famous guilt trip, as if to say, "I'm doing all this for you, Jim, how can you act like this towards me? So ungrateful." It isn't about Jim being a "dick," but an expression of their types. Believe me, I would have said Pam was a 9 in the earlier seasons too, but in the later seasons, she needs people to mirror her emotions as she integrates to 4 (reactive type). And as she comes into her own, she always willing to give advice, or be a shoulder for others to cry on. Her "9-ness" to me looks more like depression because of her dissatisfaction with her relationship with Roy (Type 8). She settles with Roy in the beginning not because she's comfortably "merged" with him, but because she doesn't have any self-worth and thinks she deserves to be with him, which is why I say heart type over body type. If she's a Type 9, where's the underlying anger? She's not out of touch with her body/instincts like a 9, but her heart. And then Jim comes along and accepts her for who she is, and makes her feel truly loved. Jim is the peacemaker (Type 9) in the relationship. He softens her, and is the one to tell her everything is OK when she gets worked up. Either way, I :love_heart: Pam.

And you were right to point out there are a ton of 9s in the Office. All the instincts of 9 are practically covered:

Kevin - 9w8 sp/so
Toby - 9w1 sp/so 
Stanley - 9w8 sp/sx
Phyllis - 9w1 sp/sx 
Jim - 9w1 so/sx
Darryl - 9w8 sx/sp

Oh, and Angela's a definite 1. There's no debate necessary.:laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

@mistakenforstranger idk about sx-first for Kelly) Seems sp to me) 






Or social for that matter
Yikes, or sx
The instincts are a bit lost on me tbh, so I don't know))

Also, @Distortions pointed out on another thread that Nines feel like too much too, their fear of imposition comes from that, they would like to be less)
So I want to amend my statement a bit)
I think my point holds though - in a _certain way_ 2s are too much for the world, 9s are not enough...

Specifically, 2s always seem to be holding back a little, 9s almost never do (unless it's anger, sometimes), they seem to be trying to push forwards. There's a difference there, which is difficult to phrase I think


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Back to X-Men, who's the one who understands the idea of rage (wrath) vs serenity? Which type has serenity as its virtue? Who sees the "good" in Erik? Erik isn't afraid of being bad, evil, or corrupt like 1's. It isn't his blind-spot or what he's trying to run away from. He owns his "badness". It's his vulnerability that he needs to address: "I didn't know I still had that." 



> Eights use denial to avoid vulnerability and to maintain a self image of being strong. Denial means to power up in the body center and forcefully re-direct energy and attention through willfulness and control. Vulnerable feelings are automatically put away and not experienced. Emotional energy is reduced, while instinctual energy is increased. Receptivity necessarily involves some vulnerability, so Eights seek to impact the world and other people rather than be receptive to them.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> Back to X-Men, who's the one who understands the idea of rage (wrath) vs serenity? Which type has serenity as its virtue? Who sees the "good" in Erik? Erik isn't afraid of being bad, evil, or corrupt like 1's. It isn't his blind-spot or what he's trying to run away from. He owns his "badness". It's his vulnerability that he needs to address: "I didn't know I still had that."


Charles is a telepath, he knows what the other person needs. Erik needs serenity, not Charles.

Charles sees the good in people. This is his what is good about him, and it's his downfall. This isn't type 1. Type 1 finds fault. Erik finds fault. Not Charles, he lifts people up. He brings inspiration and hope.

Erik is the one walking with anger. He is tense and wrathful. He grew up in trauma, he lives war. He is the hardened idealist who needs to lighten up.
Charles, on the other hand, grew up in wealth. He had the easy life. He is the excited idealist who needs to get slapped by reality.

It's hard not to see Charles as part of the Positive Triad. Facing the darker elements of reality is what he needs to learn. Type 1 is very aware of the negative aspects of life.


----------



## Darkbloom

rockinlibrarian said:


> DUDE. Moderately Nefarious is a 2 who knows her 9s. Seriously, I just got back from a counseling session and this was EXACTLY WHAT WE DISCUSSED. I had said "It's not even that I wish the other members of my household would do more for me, it's just I wish they'd acknowledge what I AM doing!"


There are some 9s I'm very close to, I'm glad my observations are accurate! roud:



_____________

Btw Kelly seems sp to me, also a Fe dom


I might start watching the office again too


I have some more thoughts, will try to think. I think saying 2 is "too much" is accurate @Phoenix Virtue , the idea of it at least
Although I'm not sure about the wording, for some reason. 

Say, a 2 and a 9 come to a new environment. 9,even healthy, will want to blend well with others, even if they are driven it's still in a way that's about coexisting well with others,at least from my experience.
For example my father, even though he is individualistic, not a conventional person of his age, also very personally driven now that he's older and very "I shouldn't have spent my youth being worried about what people thought" but he does want to find his place with people and be useful in a way that I feel is 9-ish. He still doesn't want to be a burden but now he's aware he _isn't_ a burden.

2...
The problem is that I don't know any very healthy 2s so I cant contrast.
Seriously, even fictional ones seem to be unhealthy 
But one thing I'm sure of is that 2 is not really about coexisting.
Unhealthy 9 starts merging with things and people more and more, unhealthy 2 is needy, it can look merge-y I guess in some cases but it's actually getting more 8. @Phoenix Virtue I think you made a good point in that other thread, about serial killers often being 2s, or at least some of them, don't remember what you said exactly.
I do feel weird about it, why would _my type_ be a serial killer?
Which is super strange actually, given that I relate a lot to serial killer-ish people, but all for love. I even like the idea, always have, not of actual serial killers who make lamps out of people but being...serial killer-ish)
Yet love based)
I always tried to make villains more romantic, and related to that romanticized version.
I used to think I was an INTJ for a while, because it's the villain type (not really) and it could also be romantic, and being romantic combined with INTJ is just better.
Anyway, it makes sense, the only thing throwing me off is the actual serial killing and creative use of bodies, I'm boring, I know)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Also, @*Distortions* pointed out on another thread that Nines feel like too much too, their fear of imposition comes from that, they would like to be less)
> So I want to amend my statement a bit)
> I think my point holds though - in a _certain way_ 2s are too much for the world, 9s are not enough...
> 
> Specifically, 2s always seem to be holding back a little, 9s almost never do (unless it's anger, sometimes), they seem to be trying to push forwards. There's a difference there, which is difficult to phrase I think


Yes, but 2's are also afraid of being unlovable, which can also translate into not feeling like they're not enough (rather "good" enough) and seeming to lack self-worth. You don't see Pam as holding back (i.e. repression) to fit herself in her relationship with Roy, putting her own needs away? I see that in the video you posted on the previous page, and that comes after Jim supports her in pursuing an art program, and Roy doesn't, so there's an unspoken sadness too at not being with Jim in that clip. She's aware of their connection. It isn't about waking up for Pam (i.e. Sleeping Beauty). Jim goes away, and she realizes what she's missing. It's about learning to feel that she deserves more than what Roy gives to her, and seeing that she's lovable as she is, and Jim gives her that. Aww...

It really depends on your interpretation of the character. Is Pam using repression or narcotization? Is she in her relationship with Roy because it's comfortable and she wants to avoid conflict, or because she doesn't feel worthy of being loved, so she settles with Roy? Pam's very focused on image too, and how love is expressed by others, and seeing how the love she receives from Roy doesn't match others' expression of love. Remember the Valentine's Day episode when Phyllis gets all those gifts and Pam gets nothing? 



> In a real way, Twos are dependent on the loving responses of others to validate their self-image—the good, selfless, loving person. The problem is that as long as Twos are focused on others to find indications of their own value and lovability, they fail to be fully aware of all of their own feelings and cannot recognize the lovable qualities within themselves. As Twos deteriorate, the situation worsens, because they also fail to recognize loving responses in others. Average to unhealthy Twos start looking for very specific signs that others love them, and any others indications of affection do not count.





> 2) Twos use repression of personal needs and feelings to avoid being needy and to maintain a self image of being helpful. Repression is putting one's "unacceptable" feelings and impulses out of awareness by converting them into a more acceptable kind of emotional energy. Self-esteem depends on winning the approval of others. This can take the form of being overly nice, flattering people, and a superficial friendliness. Or it can show up as an attitude of entitlement. Their genuine need for connection takes the form of "you need me."





> 9) Nines use narcotization to avoid conflict and to maintain a self image of being comfortable or harmonious. Narcotization is using food and drink, entertainment, or simply repetitive patterns of thinking and doing to "put oneself to sleep". Even productive activities can keep Nines narcotized if they become too habitual. Avoiding conflict with others keeps Nines from being fully present in relationships. Avoiding internal conflict leads to inertia and self-forgetting.


----------



## Darkbloom

I really need to start watching more shows, love typing characters, hate how unconvincing I am when I try to type them but have to admit "Oh, I don't actually watch the show, but..."


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> It doesn't have to just be in the world. It can be in himself, and not living up to his standards, and turning one's anger against himself which then turns into depression/self-pity (disintegration to 4), as you see in Days of Future Past. It can be in his relationships with Magneto or Mystique. Their actions threaten his sense of "rightness" or "goodness". He believed in them, and they failed him. He's very angry and resentful at Erik, if you watch the clip of them on the plane: "Dry your eyes, Erik. It doesn't justify what you've done." That's a very 1 statement. Again, what 7 would tell another person (Raven) I've been trying to control you ever since I met you? That's part of the friction between Charles/Erik. Erik, as an 8, doesn't want to be controlled, and Charles wants Erik to be a better man. And 1s can definitely be idealists, or full of hopeful optimism, especially if they are NFs. Look at Bernie Sanders, for a recent example. If Charles is really a 7, where do we see him moving from one thing to another to escape boredom/pain? Where is he throwing himself into the moment to lose himself and his problems? He can have fun every once in a while (connection to 7), but his sense of mission to save the mutants is his ultimate goal and what drives him.


Social 7's sacrifice their gluttony for working towards the ideal of the group. They have a push-pull relationship with their own gluttony. In fact, much of their gluttony comes from indulging in their *hopeful and positive idealism*. This is their gluttony: idealism.
Their line to 1, their resentment, comes in from taking on all these responsibilities and then feeling as if it restricts their gluttony too much.

Charles Xavier, the eternal seducer. Don't get me wrong, type 1's can be lustful and "on the prowl" just as well, I have seen it with my own eyes, but they don't seduce. They are 1's, for fuck's sake, a gut type. They are too direct and are godawful at playing these games. Fe or not, it doesn't matter.











1's are punitive, even the "NF" ones. One's function order doesn't change any of that. They are hypersensitive to flaws and imperfections. They have a *constant* resentment under their skin, and even if they don't constantly spout angry accusations, their anger is _there_. There will be tension.
This includes Bernie Sanders. The anger is *right there*, even if he isn't constantly screaming his lungs out. It's undeniably there.
I honestly don't understand how you can see Charles as a gut type.

As for a 7 controlling Raven, how does that go against Social 7 again?

Tom Condon:

* *




Social Sevens
• Healthy Social Sevens are notably steady, practical and accountable to others.
• This subtype brings Sevens more conscience and follow-through.
• When extraverted, they can enjoy social celebrations, fine wine and good food,
storytelling, jokes, and travel, all with an obvious gusto.
• They can be unusually grounded and faithful in their responsibilities. They are
relatively at ease with their commitments and are often stable and generous.
• They are sometimes motivated by idealism, serving something beyond themselves.
This subtype can have a stronger connection to One.
• Protective of group members; want every member to have a good time. If someone
causes trouble for the group, a Social Seven may react with a flash of temper against
the interloper or troublemaker.
• Can be generous, protective friends.
• Feel torn between their duty to others and a desire to escape.
• Tend to feel codependently responsible for people close to them but experience that
as a confining burden.
• Can be highly irresponsible, overpromise and underdeliver.
• A number of Social Sevens are firstborns or come from a large family where they were
given a lot of responsibility and little guidance.
• Others recall having to compensate for codependent or unstable parents.
• Social Sevens sometimes resemble Sixes, because of their dutiful quality and their
propensity for feeling guilty.
• Social Sevens with an Eight wing tend to rebel against their sense of burden and can
sometimes act terse and angry toward those they feel burdened by




* *




Social Ones
• Genuinely self-sacrificing, can work tirelessly for the good of others and enjoy putting
their ideals into action.
• Forgive the world for being flawed but still try to improve it.
• Believe they are representatives of a larger social order or tradition.
• Preoccupied with rules and how they apply to (other) people’s behavior.
• Can apply the same rigid standards to each new situation; unconsciously ask
themselves, “What is the rule?” rather than “What is necessary or sensible?”
• Can become preachy, won’t change their mind and won’t change the subject.
• Escape themselves by focusing on things that are essentially none of their business
i.e. What others are doing wrong, issues of public morality.
• Especially prone to black and white thinking; can cling to wrong-headed certainty to
avoid the unknown.
• Can be hypocritical; “Do as I say not as I do.”
• May resist modernity, and fail “on principle” to adapt to new trends or realities.
• Consider being rigid, inflexible and closed a virtue, proof that they are living by an
infallible moral or religious code.
• Can value structures, systems and rules; can be impersonal and dictatorial in positions
of power.
• Most schools of religious and political fundamentalism are ruled by Social Oneness.




A good (great) example of the Social 1:






Regardless of her functions, her anger, her resentment, her wrath, are *constantly visible*, even when not acted on.

For Charles, what is visible is his eternal *positive outlook*. To me, it doesn't get any more simpler than that.

I see him as a head type, you -for some reason- see him as a gut type. Neither of us will change our minds and you know it, so I'll be checking out of this discussion.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Moderately Nefarious said:


> Ok, I'm not that extremely considerate, but I did always pride myself in not being an asshole by accident. I see different perspectives,even when I know I'm right I also get where others are coming from and I can often question my right to do something, for example I'm usually forgiving towards people if I believe someone did something wrong by accident.
> 
> 
> That Michael in warehouse video though, it's definitely a very sitcom-y kind of behavior)
> But other than that I don't think it goes against 2 at all. Read the plot summary, seems very prideful) @*mistakenforstranger*


Perhaps a better question to ask is, what 2 is going to turn a warehouse into their own personal playground (while also being inconsiderate of others)?

@*Phoenix Virtue*, I watched a few episodes of The Office last night (Such a funny show; it never gets old), and I am reconsidering Pam as a 9. I'm still not completely convinced yet, but one could also see her trajectory as a consequence of 9 --> 3. She has a different energy than the other 9s in the Office, though, but yes, I see where you're coming from with 9. 

I thank you for your long post about Michael, but I cannot see him as a 2. Every episode is an exercise for him in positive reframing and rationalization (7's defense mechanism). There is some 2 in him, and you're right that he's a 279 tritype, but all Michael is concerned about is his happiness. I'll elaborate a little bit later, and respond to your individual points, though. Remember Karen, Jim's girlfriend, played by Rashida Jones? I think she's a 2w3. I'm not too familiar with Parks and Rec (I watched it a long time ago, and only saw the first two seasons), but her character, Ann Perkins, I can also see as a 2. And yes, Dwight is definitely a 6w5. 

And here's my take on Frasier! I haven't seen that many episodes, though, so keep that in mind.

Frasier - 3w2 or 3w4
Niles - 3w4 or 4w3
Martin - 9w8 or 6w5
Roz - 7w8
Bulldog - 8w7 

I don't have an opinion on Daphne, yet.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Btw, HIMYM:
> 
> Ted: 6 (instincts?), or (sp) 2 or 9
> Barney: sx/so 3w4
> Robin: just the worst ever
> Marshall: Maybe 6?
> Lily: no clue
> 
> if anyone has ideas


I didn't like this show very much, but I stuck through it for two seasons.

Ted - 2w3 or 6w7?
Barney - 7w8
Robin - 3w4
Marshall - 9w1
Lily - 4 or 2w1?


----------



## Dangerose

mistakenforstranger said:


> Perhaps a better question to ask is, what 2 is going to turn a warehouse into their own personal playground (while also being inconsiderate of others)?
> 
> @*Phoenix Virtue*, I watched a few episodes of The Office last night (Such a funny show; it never gets old), and I am reconsidering Pam as a 9. I'm still not completely convinced yet, but one could also see her trajectory as a consequence of 9 --> 3. She has a different energy than the other 9s in the Office, though, but yes, I see where you're coming from with 9.
> 
> I thank you for your long post about Michael, but I cannot see him as a 2. Every episode is an exercise for him in positive reframing and rationalization (7's defense mechanism). There is some 2 in him, and you're right that he's a 279 tritype, but all Michael is concerned about is his happiness. I'll elaborate a little bit later, and respond to your individual points, though. Remember Karen, Jim's girlfriend, played by Rashida Jones? I think she's a 2w3. I'm not too familiar with Parks and Rec (I watched it a long time ago, and only saw the first two seasons), but her character, Ann Perkins, I can also see as a 2. And yes, Dwight is definitely a 6w5.
> 
> And here's my take on Frasier! I haven't seen that many episodes, though, so keep that in mind.
> 
> Frasier - 3w2 or 3w4
> Niles - 3w4 or 4w3
> Martin - 9w8 or 6w5
> Roz - 7w8
> Bulldog - 8w7
> 
> I don't have an opinion on Daphne, yet.


Yeah, I'm actually rethinking Michael) My gut still says 2 but there's definitely an argument for 7.
Ann Perkins seems like a 9, not sure about Karen...2 could work)

Frasier - yeah, I'm not sure if 2 or 3) He seems to have just _massive_ amounts of pride so I'm leaning 2))
Glad you allow the option of 4 for Niles; that's my current pet theory but I fear no one will ever agree))
I can see 6 for Martin too, actually, hm)
I think Bulldog's a (very cp) 6w7)


----------



## Darkbloom

mistakenforstranger said:


> I didn't like this show very much, but I stuck through it for two seasons.
> 
> Ted - 2w3 or 6w7?
> Barney - 7w8
> Robin - 3w4
> Marshall - 9w1
> Lily - 4 or 2w1?


Ted...I considered 2, but honestly _no way_ he's the same type as me, not because I don't like him but because despite his love obsession I could never relate to him, at all.

Lily I could see as a 2w1 from what I remember!
And 3w4 might make sense for Robin.


----------



## Dangerose

I know Taylor Swift is not a fictional character but I was listening to her earlier music and remembering that she actually used to be a 2 (rather than a strange 3 exaggeration shell)

This song feels like reasonable line to 8 in 2, versus anything Pam does))






In terms of energy) I mean it's pretty silly but feels like a decent 8 line song))

or like Shae...no one seems interested in discussing her type but I feel like she might be a 2 and her actions at the trial seem line-to-8 ish)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I know Taylor Swift is not a fictional character but I was listening to her earlier music and remembering that she actually used to be a 2 (rather than a strange 3 exaggeration shell)
> 
> This song feels like reasonable line to 8 in 2, versus anything Pam does))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of energy) I mean it's pretty silly but feels like a decent 8 line song))
> 
> or like Shae...no one seems interested in discussing her type but I feel like she might be a 2 and her actions at the trial seem line-to-8 ish)


I completely agree with you that Taylor Swift is a 2w3. Have you seen the music video for Blank Space? That's very 2 --> 8. She's parodying herself, so it's exaggerated, but that is a very good example of it.


* *


----------



## Darkbloom

Does hating Taylor Swift mean I'm not a 2?
Something about her just makes me angry)


Edit: but yeah, that's a very 2 to 8 song


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Moderately Nefarious said:


> Does hating Taylor Swift mean I'm not a 2?


Why would it?


----------



## Darkbloom

Distortions said:


> Why would it?


It seems like most sp 2w3's would love her. 

I even liked many of her songs back when I was 15 or so but she's someone who I just keep disliking more and more every time I hear her name)
I hate how she sings Blank Space as some sort of parody when she's actually way worse than that)
(Although not like that, honestly she seems like a social 2 who uses relationships to get love of her fans, she has a very stiff, somewhat cold vibe in interviews)
edit: @mistakenforstranger did you type her as sx?
I think I saw someone type her as sx

I think she's a sx second but with much stronger dominant So
Sp..only if she's sx last but I doubt that.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Moderately Nefarious said:


> It seems like most sp 2w3's would love her.


I tend to feel like it's natural to dislike someone that's the same type as you, though... I guess she does seem like she would appeal to that type.

(And depends on why you dislike them)

I like Blank Space, though in general Taylor Swift is kind of weird to me, but at the same time not interesting enough to either love or hate.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Moderately Nefarious said:


> It seems like most sp 2w3's would love her.
> 
> I even liked many of her songs back when I was 15 or so but she's someone who I just keep disliking more and more every time I hear her name)
> I hate how she sings Blank Space as some sort of parody when she's actually way worse than that)
> (Although not like that, honestly she seems like a social 2 who uses relationships to get love of her fans, she has a very stiff, somewhat cold vibe in interviews)
> edit: @*mistakenforstranger* did you type her as sx?
> I think I saw someone type her as sx
> 
> I think she's a sx second but with much stronger dominant So
> Sp..only if she's sx last but I doubt that.


No, I agree and think she's 2w3 so/sx. The Social 2 is "Ambition" and that's her all the way.

http://personalitycafe.com/type-2-forum-helper/723250-social-twos-according-beatrice-chestnut.html


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Yeah, I'm actually rethinking Michael) My gut still says 2 but there's definitely an argument for 7.
> Ann Perkins seems like a 9, not sure about Karen...2 could work)


I really don't remember Parks and Rec, but I can also see 9. This clip seems very sx-9, but I have known 2s to be like this in relationships, too. Have you ever seen the movie Runaway Bride? Julia Roberts' character is like the epitome of sx-9. She has the same problem as Anne in the clip.


* *



















Phoenix Virtue said:


> Frasier - yeah, I'm not sure if 2 or 3) He seems to have just _massive_ amounts of pride so I'm leaning 2))


I'll think about this, but it also depends on the source of his pride. For me, I see Frasier more as a Social 3, in his focus on his achievements, titles, status, famous art, etc. He's a big ham who hogs the spotlight a lot of the time. I also think he's an ENFJ.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Glad you allow the option of 4 for Niles; that's my current pet theory but I fear no one will ever agree))
> I can see 6 for Martin too, actually, hm)


Niles as a Type 4, yes! He looks down on Frasier for selling out to be on a radio show. He has his integrity. He has that line to 1 that makes him a perfectionist (in an "aesthetically" appealing (See 3:25) way), but also then being extremely picky and snooty. I'm quite familiar with this quality, but I'm not as exaggerated as Niles. Niles is what a sx-last 4 looks like pursuing love (always the longing for Daphne). I think he's sp/so and either wing is possible. Playing piano by candlelight. And look at his diary entry (At 2:00)! :laughing: Such a 4.






Marty I think is now an 8w9 or 6w5, but I think 8 makes more sense. I think he's a reactive type based on the video.








Phoenix Virtue said:


> I think Bulldog's a (very cp) 6w7)


I'm not really sure, but 8 seemed like the obvious choice. What do you think of Daphne? 2w1?



Moderately Nefarious said:


> Ted...I considered 2, but honestly _no way_ he's the same type as me, not because I don't like him but because despite his love obsession I could never relate to him, at all.
> 
> Lily I could see as a 2w1 from what I remember!
> And 3w4 might make sense for Robin.


I'm leaning towards Ted as 2w3. I really don't know what else he could be. What do you suggest? I never liked Ted myself. One of the most annoying characters. Actually, besides Marshall, I didn't like any of them. Ted's a so/sx, too. And this haha https://www.buzzfeed.com/noro91/7-r...-the-one-10ppm?utm_term=.rikL638Jl#.tlL7DGo2d

2w1 makes more sense for Lily, possibly 6w7, but I was remembering her college years and being almost stereotypically 4. Dressing goth, loving Kurt Cobain, pursuing art. Though none of that is necessary for one being a 4. I've never embodied those traits.

3w4 sp/sx for Robin, I think. Big focus on her career above anything else.


----------



## Miss Bingley

*whispers* What about _Warehouse 13?

_Myka Bering - ISTJ 6w7
Pete Lattimer - ENFP 7w6
Claudia Donovan - ENTP 4w5
Steve Jinks - ISFP 9w1
Artie Nielson - INTP 6w5
Mrs. Frederick - xSTJ 1w2
H.G. Wells - ENTJ 5w4


----------



## Dangerose

There was a thread a while back...don't feel like finding it...probably everyone saw it...there was a theory that was basically...no tritype, sx=heart type, so=head type, sp=gut type

Therefore, like, the head-type seeming, intellectual 2 is a social 2, the heart-type seeming very emotional 2 is a sx 2, the more physical-seeming gut type-looking 2 is a sp 2

Been liking this theory more and more as time goes by

Watching some of The Office and think that this might make sense for Michael; _social_ 2, headish 2. Don't see him as a sx subtype with any type, just because he's _so social_, so I don't think sx 7 would really work for instance, and so 7...too much, he's one of the most strictly emotional TV characters; y'know?

So yeah, that's my thought atm; Michael is a social 2; a headish 2, 7ish 2

Works for Niles too, who gives off a quite headish vibe, but I suspect is a heart type at his core)


----------



## Darkbloom

Phoenix Virtue said:


> There was a thread a while back...don't feel like finding it...probably everyone saw it...there was a theory that was basically...no tritype, sx=heart type, so=head type, sp=gut type
> 
> Therefore, like, the head-type seeming, intellectual 2 is a social 2, the heart-type seeming very emotional 2 is a sx 2, the more physical-seeming gut type-looking 2 is a sp 2
> 
> Been liking this theory more and more as time goes by
> 
> Watching some of The Office and think that this might make sense for Michael; _social_ 2, headish 2. Don't see him as a sx subtype with any type, just because he's _so social_, so I don't think sx 7 would really work for instance, and so 7...too much, he's one of the most strictly emotional TV characters; y'know?
> 
> So yeah, that's my thought atm; Michael is a social 2; a headish 2, 7ish 2
> 
> Works for Niles too, who gives off a quite headish vibe, but I suspect is a heart type at his core)


I like that theory too, it just feels right.

And yes, I agree about Michael)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Watching some of The Office and think that this might make sense for Michael; _social_ 2, headish 2. Don't see him as a sx subtype with any type, just because he's _so social_, so I don't think sx 7 would really work for instance, and so 7...too much, he's one of the most strictly emotional TV characters; y'know?
> 
> So yeah, that's my thought atm; Michael is a social 2; a headish 2, 7ish 2





Moderately Nefarious said:


> I like that theory too, it just feels right.
> 
> And yes, I agree about Michael)


Here's the difference between Michael as a 7 and 2s:



> Because of their enthusiasm and joyfulness, as well as their prominent desire to help and be of
> service, Social Sevens can look like Twos—but while Twos focus primarily on others and don’t have
> as much of a connection with their own selves, *Social Sevens are still primarily self-referencing, not*
> *other-referencing, so they will usually know what they need, even if they decide to sacrifice it.* Their
> desire to help is born of the need to go against a sense of self-interest, not just a desire for approval,
> so they have a more direct experience of their own needs and wants despite their tendency to make
> efforts to serve others or a higher good.


That's the difference. Michael is an absolute narcissist who only wants to be happy. 

For now, I'll address a few of your earlier points.



Phoenix Virtue said:


> Anyways, he's obviously most sensitive to rejection and is obviously living in a lot of denial, that the entire office is essentially rejecting him every day. He does actually frequently reject others, too...Toby is an obvious example, but you saw it with Erin too, as well as random people throughout his life. I think you could argue that his reaction to Toby is an outlet/mirror for how he feels deep-down that the world treats him, the side that he doesn't allow himself to see - there's no reason for it, but somehow there's just hatred and rejection) Toby's the worst, it's beyond words what a terrible person he is, he's just...


No, that's not why Michael hates Toby. Remember this scene? It's because he takes away the fun and excitement. That's a frustrated 7. Toby's a killjoy.








Phoenix Virtue said:


> I think Scott's Tots is a good example of a social 2. His problem was that he was far, far too optimistic, he had built an image of himself as a philanthropist and he really wanted to help, but...he just couldn't. That came as a huge shock to him. Naranjo talked about 2's pride being almost pride because they have all the love in the world to give. I don't really like that tbh but I think 2 equates love with almost anything else aka money, food, power, etc., so I think 2s are likely to be just surprised if they find they don't have enough money to do something, lack of that sort is not understood well. But yeah that plot (probably themost cringeworthy) I think was really pretty 2, it had the pride, the helpfulness, etc.


You're right that he was far too optimistic, but this is due to Type 7 in not assessing the reality, seeing only the possibilities. As he says, *"I'm not a millionaire. I thought I would be by the time I was thirty, but I wasn't even close. Then I thought maybe by forty, but by forty I had less money than I did when I was thirty."* It's a perfect example of rationalization, the defense mechanism of Type 7:



> Sevens use rationalization to avoid suffering and to maintain a self image of being OK. Rationalization is a way of staying in the head, explaining away or justifying things in order to distance from painful feelings and refuse to take responsibility for their behavior. Everything can be re-framed towards the positive. Their ability to think of new options and possibilities allows Sevens to leave the present moment with its limitations and live in a seemingly unlimited future.


As I was saying before, he was expressing the "The Savior" element of the Social 7 in that episode. It wasn't that he saw himself as "helping," but that he wanted to inspire the kids while also making himself look good. I think you can apply these quotes below to how he is towards the Scott's Tots as well as his employees:



> But where is the ego reward in this seemingly pure, unselfish personality strategy? *Part of the ego **strategy of this subtype is that they want—crave—to be seen as good for their sacrifice. They have a **hidden gluttony for the acknowledgment of their sacrifice—are hungry for love and recognition—**and this hunger can be insatiable. *These Sevens use their sacrifice to cover up defects and shortcomings and to invite recognition and admiration or love, because they don’t feel right legitimizing and acting on their desires and whims. *Their sacrifice and service is the price they pay **for their neurotic need for admiration.*





> *Social Sevens’ focus on motivating themselves through idealism can take the form of a feeling of*
> *being on a mission—they may want to be “The Savior.”* They may at times criticize themselves for
> being naive and unrealistic, for wanting too much of mankind—and the *Social Seven does have some*
> *youthful or adolescent qualities: they are provocative, enlightened, can be simplistic, and can get lazy*
> *when the task becomes too demanding. And in addition to this, they may not be conscious of their*
> *own laziness, love of comfort, and narcissism.*


Yes, that's one of his main problems. He doesn't realize how narcissistic he is.



> *Social Sevens are very idealistic, but their idealism is a mix of illusion, good intentions, and*
> *ingenuity that function together as an “intellectual drug” that motivates action.* They’re very active,
> moved in an ongoing way by the ideals they want to translate into life to improve the world, but they
> need their idealism to help them to activate—they invest a lot in altruism, idealism, dedication, and
> sacrifice to make them feel more acceptable. *They also tend to use the defense of rationalization to*
> *support the things they do in the name of altruism and idealism.* *Their idealism is in part based on*
> *rationalizing ideologies so that if any of their beliefs are proved wrong, they can simply replace it*
> *with another rationale and then explain this change as evolution. *


Look at his "solution" to not having the money he promised and its relation to the last sentence:

*"Now, I can't pay for your college. But you don't have to go to class, to be in class. Online classes are a viable option to a traditional college experience. And the best way to access those courses is with your own personal laptop. Which is rendered useless, without batteries! And I have one for each of you. Hold on! Hold on! Hold on! Hold on. They're lithium!"*

And as he says earlier, which speaks to his general outlook:

*"I'm not a bad news person, I bring good news! Like when I promised those kids I'd pay for college!*"
I think this is one of the best examples of his unconscious positive reframing :laughing::











Others have used this scene below as proof of being a 2, but I have a different take on it. 

It's that he wants to have his cake and eat it too: "Easy, both." Type 7 gluttony.






And how about this quote, which is him reflecting after being slapped in the face by Pam:

*"As I watched Pam's big, strong hand coming towards my face I saw my entire life flash before my eyes. And guess what? I have four kids. And I have a hover-car and a hover-house. And my wife is a runner and it shows. And Pam and Jim are my best friends and our kids play together. And I am happy and I am rich and I never die. It doesn't sound like much, but its enough for me."*


----------



## Dangerose

@mistakenforstranger I feel like all these things could apply to Two too :laughing: Narcissism, positive reframing, etc.

Love this last quote))) 

Not sure. Seven might be literally the type I have the most trouble understanding - well, Five or Seven. Reading these quotes, descriptions, I just feel confused, it sounds like Two, I know there's a difference, I can sense something different, but I can't figure out what it actually is, can't get at the core of the type, it all just feels like...in strange colors to me. So...maybe Michael is a Seven. I'll have to think...


----------



## Daeva

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Not sure. Seven might be literally the type I have the most trouble understanding - well, Five or Seven. Reading these quotes, descriptions, I just feel confused, it sounds like Two, I know there's a difference, I can sense something different, but I can't figure out what it actually is, can't get at the core of the type, it all just feels like...in strange colors to me. So...maybe Michael is a Seven. I'll have to think...


FWIW, these are some real male Social 7s (imo) for comparison's sake:


* *





Russel Brand, So/Sx 7w6











Robbie Williams, So/Sx 7w6











Jim Carrey, So/Sp 7w6











Jackie Chan, So/Sp 7w6











Ricky Gervais, So/Sp 7w6










~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Robin Williams, So/Sx 7w8











Gigi D'Agostino, So/Sx 7w8













I'd say one of the biggest differences is the 'level of warmth' that they exude. Sure, they'll be warm and charming, but compared to 2's, there will always be a level of detachment. There will be a sense of "This is going great, while it lasts..." 

Hard to describe though, but in the most basic way, it's the difference between heart and head. Emotional needs vs Intellectual needs.

And so, when it comes to character of Michael Scott, I see him being predominantly about emotional needs. Even if he likes to (intellectually) entertain to get there, I see his end goal being about 'love me'.



Oh! Also, another thing. I tend to see 7's as being "unpretentiously pretentious" lol.. As in, they'll say they're awesome and they will mean it, and it's so damn straight-forward. They don't have all too many complexes around their felt superiority. 7's can act like dickheads and be totally cool with it, because _they never promised you they weren't dickheads_, lol. It's so obnoxious.

Whereas 2's.. well, it's a shame type, an image type. There *will* *be* a lot of complexities around whether or not to show how full of themselves they are, because this can potentially sabotage relationships and they are extremely aware of this.


----------



## rockinlibrarian

Phoenix Virtue said:


> @mistakenforstranger I feel like all these things could apply to Two too :laughing: Narcissism, positive reframing, etc.
> 
> Love this last quote)))
> 
> Not sure. Seven might be literally the type I have the most trouble understanding - well, Five or Seven. Reading these quotes, descriptions, I just feel confused, it sounds like Two, I know there's a difference, I can sense something different, but I can't figure out what it actually is, can't get at the core of the type, it all just feels like...in strange colors to me. So...maybe Michael is a Seven. I'll have to think...


I agree with you on this typing, although from the other way around-- I don't have much experience with twos but I have a little more understanding of/experience with 7s, and so I just don't see the seven-- there's a quality there that's different. I think the difference lies in how much they care what other people think of them. Sevens just don't care as much as Twos do-- not that they don't care at ALL, of course they like to be liked, that means people are happy and everyone's having a good time, yay, it's just 2s are ALWAYS thinking about what other people think of them, it's intrinsic in how they understand themselves, and sevens have other things on their minds first.


----------



## Darkbloom

Started watching GoT, for now I'm not sure about most of them but:
Cersei- heart type of some sort for sure
Jaime- 2w3 sx
The Starks seem mostly gut-ish, but not sure about individual characters yet
Tyrion 7w6 sp


----------



## Dangerose

Sorry, more about Michael, was watching a few episodes, noticing his character

After hearing that Ed Truck had died..."That's not the way a Dundler Mifflin manager should go."








...and then he turned the whole day into 'why aren't you guys upset about YOUR BOSS dying", projecting with the whole bird thing

And Pam being a sweetheart


























Or setting up his new paper company in the same building of the Office, after a rather unpleasant ordeal with them..."You know what they say: keep your friends close."
_____________________________________

Anyways, anyone seen Vicar of Dibley?

My thoughts:
Geraldine: no clue, so annoying...2, 6, or 9 probably...so/sp
David: the best :lovekitty: 1 or 3 I think...I always have such trouble telling them apart. But leaning 1, 3 fix definitely. I always really like 1s in fiction so it seems likely. sp/so?

My favorite little thing with him was when he was cast as Herod in the Christmas play and is desperately trying to vindicate his character...










Alice: 9w1 I suppose
Hugo: 3w2 or vicey versa, or 9
Frank: 1w9

No idea about the others, probably too much of caricatures.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Sun Daeva said:


> FWIW, these are some real male Social 7s (imo) for comparison's sake:
> 
> Robbie Williams, So/Sx 7w6










Sun Daeva said:


> Jim Carrey, So/Sp 7w6


"The more infantile the more upset he is, and he just skipped the Ace Ventura talking butt thing. He never skips it."










Sun Daeva said:


> Ricky Gervais, So/Sp 7w6









Sun Daeva said:


> I'd say one of the biggest differences is the 'level of warmth' that they exude. Sure, they'll be warm and charming, but compared to 2's, there will always be a level of detachment. There will be a sense of "This is going great, while it lasts..."
> 
> Hard to describe though, but in the most basic way, it's the difference between heart and head. Emotional needs vs Intellectual needs.
> 
> And so, when it comes to character of Michael Scott, I see him being predominantly about emotional needs. Even if he likes to (intellectually) entertain to get there, I see his end goal being about 'love me'.


Or, his end goal is to be happy, and so to never look at what's going wrong in his life (mainly no long-lasting relationship and he's in his 40s, and he wants a family), or how no one really finds him funny. He thinks he's the funniest thing, though.






With all 7s, there's a deep pain there, that he isn't acknowledging. He's lonely, and the job at the Office and the people there, and the fun he has, is all he has to keep him from feeling it. And in this episode, when he can't be these things after everyone roasts him, then he has to actually reflect on himself...






"I'm OK...no I'm not."

*Harmonic Groups at a Glance*


*The Positive Outlook Group: Deny that they have any problems* NINE“What problem? I don’t think there is a problem…”TWO“You have the problem. I am here to help you…”*SEVEN**“There may be a problem, but I’m fine….”*


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> With all 7s, there's a deep pain there, that he isn't acknowledging. He's lonely, and the job at the Office and the people there, and the fun he has, is all he has to keep him from feeling it. And in this episode, when he can't be these things after everyone roasts him, then he has to actually reflect on himself...


*Loneliness*​ as the big theme in his life is type 2 through and through.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Sun Daeva said:


> *Loneliness*​ as the big theme in his life is type 2 through and through.


As it is for 7s, too...:bored:



> On the surface, Sevens would like to convince themselves and everyone else that they are always feeling "fabulous"—having the time of their lives. Of course, the truth is often somewhat different. Sevens, like all human beings, are vulnerable to anxiety, depression, loneliness, and other difficult feelings. At times, Sevens sincerely want to tell others how they actually fee, but they often feel compelled to keep spirits high, even if privately they are miserable themselves. Yet they also struggle with fears of not being taken seriously and a sense that others will misinterpret their positive approach to life as a lack of feeling or depth. In private, Sevens struggle with loneliness, grief, and self-doubt and are as prone to depression as any other type. Most of all, Sevens fear a gnawing feeling that they will never really get what they truly want in life. So they settle for other pleasures that they hope will make them happy enough, or at least pleasantly distracted, from the more painful disappointments in their lives.


The difference is how they address their loneliness.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> As it is for 7s, too...:bored:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is how they address their loneliness.





> _Sevens, *like all human beings*, are vulnerable to anxiety, depression, loneliness, *and other difficult feelings*._


Of course they can feel lonely, they're human. Why does that point even need to be made? Do you seriously think I was making the argument that the feeling of loneliness is unique to 2's?

Also, the thing you quoted doesn't talk about loneliness as the big theme for E7, which is something I explicitly mentioned.

Loneliness isn't the other side of the need for excitement/stimulation(7). The other side of excitement/stimulation is emptiness/*deprivation*. This is what 7's avoid, this is their pain, their core hurt.

Having the emotion of loneliness tumbling around the core of a person implies strong ties to the _heart_. It's the other side of needing something from people. It's needing attention, needing love, needing to be seen,... *needing to be needed*.

This is 2.


----------



## Animal

> Sevens, *like all human beings*, are vulnerable to anxiety, depression, loneliness, and other difficult feelings.


Dammit just when I was starting to believe I might be human....

:sadcloud:


----------



## Dangerose

_Michael: Phyllis is getting married. And I am in the wedding party. She has asked me to push her father's wheelchair down the aisle. So, basically, I am co-giving away the bride. Since I pay her salary it is like I'm paying for the wedding. Which I'm happy to do. It's a big day for Phyllis. But it's an even bigger day for me. Employer of the bride._

^Pride


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I love Simon Pegg's movies, and his characters are great representations of the types.

Shaun of the Dead: Shaun - 9w1 so/sx (And Ed's a 9w8 sp/sx)


* *















As an aside, Stanley, a 9w8, has a similar scene.:laughing:








Hot Fuzz: Nicholas Angel - 1w9 sp/so


* *


----------



## mistakenforstranger

The World's End: Gary King - 7w8 sx/so (There's a clip that shows a 7's hidden inner pain, but I don't want to include spoilers)


* *


----------



## inabox

House is 8w9/8w7- 5w6(cp) - 4w3 sx/sp INTJ/INTp (socionics)

I was around 14 when I first started watching House. He felt very familiar to me. He felt even more familiar to me when I first began to suffer from seriously devastating depression at around 18.
House is one of the few sx/sp characters I've seen in fiction (or at all, lol). He is passionate about his work, he takes deep pride in his intelligence and competence and yet he is always unsatisfied.

He has all the selfdestructiveness and insularity present in average to unhealthy social last sx/sp s. He seeks and craves excitement and intensity. He is frustrated when he cannot find these things. He will go to great lengths to indulge that gnawing emptiness in him.

Growing up, I related to House in an uncomfortable and unbearable way. I was envious that at least he got to be a doctor; I never became a writer (haha, what a depressing thing to admit on my bday).

House's heart center represents frustration, which is familiar to my own core type. He never really seemed to be satisfied as I mentioned.

One of the most fascinating things I've noticed between me and him is this: in my worst moments, I chose to look at the bright side and attempt to be appreciative for what I had. It wasn't until the very end, until it seemed that House had ruined everything that he showed his truest expression of gratitude for Wilson. House had a lot to be thankful for: yes, he had a disability but he was a white, moderately (?) well off, white disabled man in America, he had a passion in life, sometimes women took an interest in him (oh Cuddy  ) and he had Wilson. And yet, he never thought about the 'blessings' he had very deeply. Until the end  . 

He had this self sabotaging streak that reminds me of myself (how 4w3 of me) - seen especially in his relationships with women (Stacy, when he realized that she was better off with her husband because he could not be as sacrificing as him; Cuddy because I believe she expected more from him and he wanted to be him in a disintegrated 4 way which is useless because if you're going to be a shitty version of yourself, don't expect other people to keep cutting you slack). Of course, his romantic behaviour was very victim-y ie socionics; one thing I've heard the victim men (whom I've dated or been acquainted with) say is: I've screwed things up for myself AS USUAL, lol. 

House also reminds me of why I as an sx/sp am a teetotaller. I've always been aware of my own addiction prone tendencies. 

I wish there were more sx/sps on screen. One of the reasons is well ... I loved House's dreams and disillusions. Sx/sps are said to have "powerful sexual impulses facing inner resistance may manifest symbolically in the psyche, giving way to soulful interpretations of the unconscious: ; there were episodes in House (season finales 4 and 8 I believe) where House had visions/dreams where people from his past appeared and showed him the ... way. They ended up giving him an important lesson.

The only other sx/sp I can think of in fiction is Amethyst from Steven Universe (Se-ESFP, 7w8-8w9-4w3).


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Phoenix Virtue said:


> _Michael: Phyllis is getting married. And I am in the wedding party. She has asked me to push her father's wheelchair down the aisle. So, basically, I am co-giving away the bride. Since I pay her salary it is like I'm paying for the wedding. Which I'm happy to do. It's a big day for Phyllis. *But it's an even bigger day for me.* Employer of the bride._
> 
> ^Pride


Self-deluded narcissism



> Because of their enthusiasm and joyfulness, as well as their prominent desire to help and be of
> service, Social Sevens can look like Twos—but while Twos focus primarily on others and don’t have
> as much of a connection with their own selves, *Social Sevens are still primarily self-referencing, not*
> *other-referencing*, so they will usually know what they need, even if they decide to sacrifice it.





> Social Sevens’ focus on motivating themselves through idealism can take the form of a feeling of
> being on a mission—they may want to be “The Savior.” They may at times criticize themselves for
> being naive and unrealistic, for wanting too much of mankind—and the Social Seven does have some
> youthful or adolescent qualities: they are provocative, enlightened, can be simplistic, and can get lazy
> when the task becomes too demanding. *And in addition to this, they may not be conscious of their*
> *own laziness, love of comfort, and narcissism.*


----------



## Rose for a Heart

Wrong thread lol


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> _Michael: Phyllis is getting married. And I am in the wedding party. She has asked me to push her father's wheelchair down the aisle. So, basically, I am co-giving away the bride. Since I pay her salary it is like I'm paying for the wedding. Which I'm happy to do. It's a big day for Phyllis. *But it's an even bigger day for me.Employer of the bride.
> 
> ^Pride*_
> 
> 
> 
> Self-deluded narcissism
Click to expand...

_Michael: *Phyllis *is getting married. And *I am in the wedding party*. *She has asked me* to push her father's wheelchair down the aisle. So, basically, *I am co-giving away* the bride. Since *I pay* her salary it is like *I'm paying for* the wedding. Which *I'm happy to do*. It's a big day *for Phyllis*. But it's an even bigger day for me. Employer *of the bride*._


Pride in what he means to someone else.

It is not self-deluded narcissism. The key lies in your wording: *self*-deluded narcissism. E7 doesn't need to rely on others to feel superior, they'll feel this way with or without others.
Michael can't escape his co-dependency in order to fulfill his narcissism.


----------



## Tetsuo Shima

Some of the more major characters in Akira...

Tetsuo: 4w3
Kaneda: 7w8
Kei: 5w4
Kaisuke: 7w6
Kaori: 1w9
Akira: 9w8


----------



## Dangerose

_Do I need to be liked? Absolutely not. I like to be liked. I enjoy being liked. I have to be liked. But it's not like a compulsive *need* to be liked, like my need to be praised._

This even has Two rejection-of-neediness))

(Sorry, watching the Office, couldn't resist putting this here, so Two...I'll try to stop though)


----------



## Animal

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I'll try to stop though)


Please never stop!


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Alvy Singer from Annie Hall - 6w5 so/sx 

"Still you need a set of aesthetic guidelines to put it in social perspective."


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Carrie Mulligan's character in "Shame" is the epitome of unhealthy 4w3 sx/sp. In this scene you also see 4 --> 2, "I'm trying to help you." I'm a little less sure on his type, but I think he's 5w4 sx/sp, and you also see unhealthy 5 --> 7 throughout this movie, especially in the climactic scene. Very much embodies the "This is My World" of sx-5. Pretty intense movie overall since they're both very unhealthy:


----------



## Dangerose

Watched "Love and Friendship" today - based on Lady Susan by Jane Austen

Lady Susan - such a social 2w3 or 3w2, unsure which


----------



## goldthysanura

I recently watched The Color Purple. Such an amazing movie...full of genuine warmth and joy, and simultaneously, the effects of trauma and portrayals of cycles of violence--racial and domestic. The love of Celie and her sister, or Sophia and her children, the love that binds people together, that's what moved me the most about the movie. It contains the kind of love that's so real that as Celie's sister says "nothing but death can keep me from her." And it's just a beautiful beautiful move visually too, it makes me want to go to the South. 

Celie is such a 9. She contains her rage toward her "husband" for years and years as he abuses her verbally and sexually, keeping up the appearance of complying with him while she slyly spits in his drink and holds onto the hope that she might see her sister again one day. She goes with the flow to the extent that she lets other people mistreat her without realizing she's being mistreated. Finally, you get this scene (SPOILER ALERT)






in which she nearly (and rightly so) kills Albert, exploding all at once in a way that he never expected! her anger had been completely hidden from everyone until that moment, when it spilled out from deep within her, after building up over time. once she owns her anger, she never looks back, and takes control of her life, opening a hat shop and thriving in her deep relationships. it's all very lovely.  I like Celie's relationship with her sister because it's such a positive side of the 9 tendency to merge with others, that all-encompassing, all-overcoming love. 9w8 or 9w1? I don't think I have the differences between the two subtypes down well enough to say.

Sophia is an 8w9. The Mountain. She also blows up at people, but her fuse is an inch long where Celie's is a mile. Sophia is waiting for her borders to be crossed, and when they are, she punches squarely and solidly. I'm in awe of her assertiveness in a world that continually knocks her down. 



 Her story shows how an 8 can be a target of victimization because if you try to assert your power in a world that allows you to have none, people can do terrible, unjust things to you as they try to get their power back. I love how protective Sophia is, and I love that she never makes the first blow, but when she hits back, she does it for a damn good reason. 

Also, I dunno if you can tell from that scene, but Mrs. Miller is a 2w1, and a very narrow-minded, secretly selfish person. She builds up her image of altruism by acting like she cares about the welfare of black people when in reality, she only cares about having other people take care of her and using them to make her look good. After the incident in that video, she turns Sophia into her own personal slave--and deludes herself into thinking she's helping her.

I think Shug is a 3w4. She's focused on, as she tells it, finding love by being beautiful. I could see 4w3 for her, maybe. Either way, she certainly enjoys attention, performing, and feeling like she's special and other people know it. 

I don't want Albert to be my type, but unfortunately I think he's a 6. the roots of his violence toward women come from the authority his father has over him...or at least, this is heavily implied in the scene where his father comes to his house after Celie leaves and Albert is sitting there, the house in shambles and his father says something to the effect of "you're pathetic. You need to get yourself another child bride and make her your new Celie." Albert is afraid...afraid of doing things wrong and displeasing Shug, for one thing. He's the bully when it's just him and Celie, but when Shug throws his breakfast at the wall, or when his father berates him, he becomes meek, the bullied. He's pathetic and spineless, but in the end, he finally does the right thing. He gets in touch with his inner authority for once so that Celie and her sister can be reunited. 

My apologies if this seems clumsy, Ive never typed fictional characters before. at least not out loud.


----------



## Stellafera

_Community_ types! The show as a whole feels 5ish in theme, which I ascribe to Dan Harmon's influence, but the characters themselves are strong examples of a variety of types. 










*Jeff Winger - 8w7 *


* *




























*Annie Edison - 1w9*


* *



























*Britta Perry- 4w3* (but would vehemently deny being any type and especially having any sort of 3-wing)


* *





















*Abed Nadir - 5w4*


* *




























*Troy Barnes - 9w8* (good example of an energetic and vocal type 9)


* *





















*Shirley Bennett - stereotypical 2w1*


* *





















*Pierce Hawkthorne - 8w9 *(rather fitting that he and Jeff share a type considering that he's intended to be sort of a future reflection of him)


* *


----------



## Swordsman of Mana

looks like we're talking a lot about 2s. guess I could make some contributions (I've mentioned a lot of 2s already. time for some fresh ones)

Gretchin Weiners: 2w3 Sp/Sx (think I might have mentioned her once, but I don't think anyone really noticed)






Mia Wallace: 2w3 Sx/Sp


----------



## Dangerose

I've wanted to watch Community for a while but I can never figure out how...

Based on what I've seen these ↑ typings seem right, though

Watching Parks and Rec and resigning myself to Leslie probably being a social 2  [really dislike her tbh, wanted to shunt her off to the 1s and 3s plus she's so competency-focused but...I don't think those really fit well]

{similar to Gretchen Wieners, not going to like/relate to every character with my type}

Regina George seems 3w2? @Adena and @Amaranthine I think have discussed her being a Te-dom

Parks and Rec though...wonder if April is a 4? or 9w8? does anyone have an opinion?


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@*Stellafera*
Oh, I thought 3 for Jeff.

(I haven't watched Community in a while, though, so I can't recall exact reasons, but he struck me as so... concerned with image, basically)


----------



## Stellafera

Distortions said:


> @*Stellafera*
> Oh, I thought 3 for Jeff.
> 
> (I haven't watched Community in a while, though, so I can't recall exact reasons, but he struck me as so... concerned with image, basically)


I thought about it too (actually thought about type 2 as well for his "I must be group leader" tendencies), but Jeff comes across as much more of a reactive type than a competency one. 





_"Look at me! Look at meeeee!"
Not very subtle, are we Jeff?_​
He's not very methodical about his image, he just needs to prove his dominance and hates anything that makes him look weak. The Type 8 also ties into his desire to control the rest of the group better than I think a two-wing or the like would. He loves the Winger throne because it puts him in charge. 

Which is he more afraid of; people seeing the "real him" or being vulnerable? I think it's the latter. The image control is just a method for preventing weakness.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

@Stellafera
Hm, I'll think about 8 some more whenever I get to rewatching this show. 8 didn't occur to me but could be it's easier to see 3 in a character because 8 is hard for me to get.

Lol, it's true that video clip doesn't seem very 3, though, aside from wanting to win.


----------



## Dangerose

Jeff is striking me as 3w2 so far, but I can see 8, show hasn't peered deep enough into his personality yet or set up limits; I can't tell what's sincere and what's not yet

But I love him already, unconditionally, he could do anything at this point and I would be rooting for him

edit: It _is_ mostly fictional 3s that cause this reaction in me but that is not saying much 


















It's strange because theoretically and irl I'm not a big fan of 3s but fictional 3s make me want to drop everything and follow them to the ends up the earth


----------



## Dangerose

Seems 3? :laughing:


----------



## Darkbloom

Jeff is a 3 imo, I have seen only some of the season 1, but I think he's an image type. Maybe 7, not 8 though.

@Phoenix Virtue why not 2w3 so/sx for Regina?


----------



## Dangerose

Amaranthine said:


> Jeff is a 3 imo, I have seen only some of the season 1, but I think he's an image type. Maybe 7, not 8 though.
> 
> @Phoenix Virtue why not 2w3 so/sx for Regina?


I haven't seen the movie for a long time tbh
She didn't give me a strongly 2 vibe though, but it could just be social 2 looking like 3, she doesn't look that much like 3 anyway

Has a steely feeling to her, colder than I'd expect from a 2


----------



## Darkbloom

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I haven't seen the movie for a long time tbh
> She didn't give me a strongly 2 vibe though, but it could just be social 2 looking like 3, she doesn't look that much like 3 anyway
> 
> Has a steely feeling to her, colder than I'd expect from a 2


Yeah, I always felt she LOOKED more 3-ish, partly just her face lol
But 3 feels wrong for some reason. Social+being some sort of ExTx(could see anything but ENTP) is making her look cold.


----------



## Animal

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Parks and Rec though...wonder if April is a 4? or 9w8? does anyone have an opinion?


I think she's a 4w5 Sx. The way she brought all her other boyfriends around to show Andy up... so 4 Sx ish.  But really everything about her...


----------



## Dangerose

Animal said:


> I think she's a 4w5 Sx. The way she brought all her other boyfriends around to show Andy up... so 4 Sx ish.  But really everything about her...


Oh ok good...I thought 4 tbh but I was afraid I was just stereotyping based on her...style, idk)
And yeah that makes sense)


----------



## periwinklepromise

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Oh ok good...I thought 4 tbh but I was afraid I was just stereotyping based on her...style, idk)
> And yeah that makes sense)


I guess I'm not seeing it? I mean, I've only seen the show once, and that was before I really got into the Enneagram, but idk. It's not that she _can't_ be a 4, I just don't get strong 4 vibes from her?


----------



## No_this_is_patrick

I haven't read this whole thread but I would like to talk about a couple of things:

Since you guys are talking about Parks and Recreation I'll start with that: 

First of all, I've always assumed April was a 6w7 sp/sx (469) or sx/sp maybe. That is what I usually see her typed as. But I could see 4. I still think 6 though.

I think Leslie is a 1w2 so/sx (137), not 2w1. If she was anything besides a 1 I would think 3w2 or POSSIBLY social 7w6.

Tom I'm not sure if he is 3w4 or 7w8 sp/sx.

I haven't watched this show in a while I can't even think of all the characters lol. Those are the ones I've probably thought about the most though. Ron is a bit of a mystery...What do you think, 9w8? 8w9? I really don't know. 

Anne of course is a 9w1 so/sp (926). Her boyfriend (Andy?) is probably like...7w6 or 9w8 maybe even 2w3.

Chris is either 7 or 3 or maybe 1?

Ben is probably 6w5.

Thoughts? Arguments?


----------



## No_this_is_patrick

Oh and next I would like to discuss King of the Hill.

Everyone seems to think Hank Hill is a 1w9 sp/so, but my sister and I are huge fans of this show and are both convinced he is actually so/sp 6w5. He clearly values loyalty over morality. Look at how he worships Buck Strickland and longs for his father's approval even though he finds them both morally reprehensible.

Plus his extreme patriotism and attachment to his state and sports teams.


----------



## periwinklepromise

No_this_is_patrick said:


> I think Leslie is a 1w2 so/sx (137), not 2w1. If she was anything besides a 1 I would think 3w2 or POSSIBLY social 7w6.


Yeah, I definitely think 1w2, not 2w1 for Leslie. Social-first for sure, not entirely sure about second instinct or tritype.


----------



## Dangerose

Finished S1 of Community [well, the episodes I could watch]

Jeff definitely 3w2 :lovekitty:

I don't have the opinion strength to argue about Parks and Rec characters but I'm interested in seeing that


----------



## Adena

Phoenix Virtue said:


> I've wanted to watch Community for a while but I can never figure out how...
> 
> Based on what I've seen these ↑ typings seem right, though
> 
> Watching Parks and Rec and resigning myself to Leslie probably being a social 2  [really dislike her tbh, wanted to shunt her off to the 1s and 3s plus she's so competency-focused but...I don't think those really fit well]
> 
> {similar to Gretchen Wieners, not going to like/relate to every character with my type}
> 
> Regina George seems 3w2? @Adena and @Amaranthine I think have discussed her being a Te-dom
> 
> Parks and Rec though...wonder if April is a 4? or 9w8? does anyone have an opinion?


I actually thought Leslie would be a soc 1w2, I adore her <3

Regina George could be a 8w7, but 3w2 fits better, I agree. 386? Maybe?

As for April, I'd say she's pretty unclear. 4 and 9 somewhere in her tritype but idk


----------



## rockinlibrarian

Phoenix Virtue said:


> Watched "Love and Friendship" today - based on Lady Susan by Jane Austen
> 
> Lady Susan - such a social 2w3 or 3w2, unsure which


Ah, I need to see that! The Lady Susan I remember from the novella was definitely more 3 than 2 at least.



Stellafera said:


> _Community_ types! The show as a whole feels 5ish in theme, which I ascribe to Dan Harmon's influence, but the characters themselves are strong examples of a variety of types.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Jeff Winger - 8w7 *
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Annie Edison - 1w9*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Britta Perry- 4w3* (but would vehemently deny being any type and especially having any sort of 3-wing)
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Abed Nadir - 5w4*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Troy Barnes - 9w8* (good example of an energetic and vocal type 9)
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Shirley Bennett - stereotypical 2w1*
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pierce Hawkthorne - 8w9 *(rather fitting that he and Jeff share a type considering that he's intended to be sort of a future reflection of him)
> 
> 
> * *


Oh my gosh, I always forget how much I loved this show until I see gifs and then the intensity of missing it hits me all of a sudden. I'd agree with most of these assessments, but:



Distortions said:


> @*Stellafera*
> Oh, I thought 3 for Jeff.
> 
> (I haven't watched Community in a while, though, so I can't recall exact reasons, but he struck me as so... concerned with image, basically)


Yeah, he's OBSESSED with his image, whereas I can't see the power need going as deeply.


----------



## Stellafera

Thing is, Jeff Winger's image obsession seems to fade to a degree as the seasons go by, whereas his power obsession only seems to grow. Although I suppose you could still see his desire to be in charge of the study group from a 3ish "I like being the role of the group leader at the top of the heap" perspective.


----------



## Dangerose

Huh, I was just listening to this song [which was in the show] and thinking how I forgot to keep up despite loving the first season






If Jeff gets progressively more power-hungry I would consider him a potential 2w3, though Season 1 he seemed pretty darn 3

exudes more raw sexuality than any other TV show character in the history of the world, feel a bit narcissistic even just theoretically claiming him


----------



## Stellafera

Phoenix Virtue said:


> If Jeff gets progressively more power-hungry I would consider him a potential 2w3


I like that typing more than 3. I remember originally typing him as that and then there being some sort of reason why I changed my mind, but I can't think of it right now, so I'm a fan.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Phoenix Virtue said:


> exudes more raw sexuality than any other TV show character in the history of the world, feel a bit narcissistic even just theoretically claiming him


Lol, Jeff you mean? 

(I do find him attractive myself, but not the most.)


----------



## Dangerose

Stellafera said:


> I like that typing more than 3. I remember originally typing him as that and then there being some sort of reason why I changed my mind, but I can't think of it right now, so I'm a fan.


Hm. I kinda like it, obviously [love sneaking people into my camp]
Gonna keep watching with this in mind



Distortions said:


> Lol, Jeff you mean?
> 
> (I do find him attractive myself, but not the most.)


Yes :kitteh:

I don't understand it, I used to really dislike blonds and jerks
I've noticed that I seem to have developed a very specific type, I guess blond 'jerks', something about Jeff Winger specifically though, idk, can't explain it)


----------



## rockinlibrarian

@Stellafera @Phoenix Virtue @Distortions I just accidentally opened a browser to this page, sighed "ah, Community, I miss those people," then literally immediately turned on the TV and SHIRLEY WAS FRONT AND CENTER. Or the lady who plays her whose name I can't remember (Yvonne something?) She was on a talk show. I went on to what I was doing with the TV (Wii!) But I laughed.


----------



## DomNapoleon

I am particularly interested in Skyler White from Breaking Bad. Whats her type and tritype be... i think she is a core 6w7 or 2w1.


----------



## O_o

Anyone watch Stranger Things? Would love to hear input on some of their types if anyone has any. I have some ideas but they're not that sturdy yet.


----------



## Vermillion

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> I am particularly interested in Skyler White from Breaking Bad. Whats her type and tritype be... i think she is a core 6w7 or 2w1.


2w1 makes a lot more sense to me, personally


----------



## Xzcouter

Zenyatta from Overwatch

I am pretty sure he is a type 9 but not sure about his wings. I definitely lean towards w1 more than w8 though.

Probably 'so' instict but I honestly am not sure.


----------



## Stellafera

The Dangan Ronpa series is a murder mystery series at heart, which means that it focuses a lot on deep psychological topics that are excellent for enneagramming. From Hajime Hinata, a non-stereotypical 3 protagonist, to Kyoko Kirigiri, a Type 5 heroine, you get some really interesting stuff. 

And then you just have Kazuichi Souda, *who sums up type 6w7 in its entirety in two sprites *



















replay in the desired order as needed


----------



## ninjahitsawall

Blindspot: Kurt Weller 8w9 (?), "Jane" 1w2 (hard to tell though bc amnesia), Patterson 5w4, Reade 6w5

Fringe: Olivia Dunham 6w5, Walter Bishop 5w4, Peter Bishop 6w7

I'd have to think the other characters through more, but those are my guesses so far.


----------



## aardwolf

Colonel Kurtz from "Apocalypse now" (the movie) is a model 6 in my opinion.


----------



## Matejko108

Hybrid Shark Wolf said:


> I am particularly interested in Skyler White from Breaking Bad. Whats her type and tritype be... i think she is a core 6w7 or 2w1.


I think 2w1. 

Okay, let's do Breaking Bad.

Walter White - 6w5 (counter phobic, dinintergrating to 3) 

Hank - 8w7 

Jesse Pinkman - 4w3 or 6w7 or 7w6 (not sure, obviously)

Gus Fring - 5w6 

Tuco - 8w7 definately

Skyler - 2w1

Marie - 3w4 probably

Mike - 8w9 (very sure about that one)

Walter Jr. - 3 ? 

Saul Goodman - 7w6 (maybe a 3, but my guess is 7w6, especially after watching "Better Call Saul")

Badger - 7w6


----------



## Matejko108

O_o said:


> Anyone watch Stranger Things? Would love to hear input on some of their types if anyone has any. I have some ideas but they're not that sturdy yet.



Will - 4w5

Dustin - 9w8

Lucas - probably 8, I'm thinking 8w7 

Mike - I don't know.... 1w2 ? 2w1 ? 

Eleven - 5w4 

Joyce - I don't know, 6w5? 

Hopper - 7w8 

Nancy - 2w3

Jonathan - 5w4 or maybe also 4w5

Dr.Brenner - 3w4

Barb - 1w2

Steve - 3w4

Steve's guy friend - 7w8 

Lonnie - 8w9


----------



## Dangerose

Friends?

imo

Monica: 1w2 or 2w1 so/sx ESTJ
Chandler: 3w4 or 6w5? so/sp maybe, INTP or ISFJ
Phoebe: 9w1? *ENFP*
Joey: 9w8 I guess, sp/so seems ok
Rachel: not worth typing
Ross: 6w5 ISTJ, maybe sp/so


----------



## Stellafera

Little Lotte said:


> Rachel: not worth typing


:laughing:


----------



## Flaming Bassoon

Since there's 36 pages, I'm not going to go looking for my new obsession, _House MD _(I'm only only season 2 so I don't know about any other characters):

House - 5w4 (584, xNTP)
Chase - 6w7 (!!!! so hottttttt, ISTP, 63x)
Foreman - 8w9 (?) (853, IxTJ)
Cuddy - 6w5 (631 ESTJ, _so much like my mom)_
Wilson - 2w1 poster boy (269 I think, ISFJ)
Cameron - 6w5 ? (629, seems 9 at first, but she is also very morally opinionated like Cuddy, xNFJ)


----------



## Azazel

Little Lotte said:


> Friends?
> 
> imo
> 
> Monica: 1w2 or 2w1 so/sx ESTJ
> Chandler: 3w4 or 6w5? so/sp maybe, INTP or ISFJ
> Phoebe: 9w1? *ENFP*
> Joey: 9w8 I guess, sp/so seems ok
> Rachel: not worth typing
> Ross: 6w5 ISTJ, maybe sp/so


IMO would be more like:

Monica 3w2 So/Sx ESTJ
Chandler 6w7 So/Sp eNTP
Rachel 6w7 Sx/So ESFJ
Joey 7w6 Sx/So ESFP
Ross 6w5 Sp/So ISxJ
Phoebe 9w1 Sx/So ENFP


----------



## Azazel

Overwatch
Genji - 9(w8 seems a little bit more likely than w1, but both are very possible)
Pharah - 1(w2?)
Reaper - 8w7 // Gabriel seemed more like 6w5, so, CP 6 is kind of possible.
Tracer - 6w7 
McCree - 9w8 - ISTP, he reminds me of Spike from Cowboy Bebop a lot.
Soldier 76 - 6w5 // Morrison seemed like a 3w2 ESFJ while Soldier facades a lot more ISTJ.
Bastion - 9w1
Mei - 6w7
Junkrat - 7w8
Torbjorn - 5w6
Hanzo - 6w5
Widowmaker - 1w9(or 3w4)
Roadhog - 8w7
Zarya - 9w8
Reinhardt - 6w7
Winston - 5w4
Dva - 7w6
Zenyatta - 9w1
Lucio - 7w6
Mercy - 2w1
Ana - 6w5
Symmetra - Probably 5w6


----------



## Matejko108

Any idea about the Godfather movies?

Fredo's a 6

Vito Corleone, I'm guessing 8w9 or even 9w8 

Sonny Corleone 8w7

Tom Hagen 5w6

I'm really not sure about Michael Corneone. He could be 5. Maybe 8w9.


----------



## Angina Jolie

Phoebe is not a 9w1. She's almost like the opposite of it. She's confrontational, stands up for herself and others, is very emotionally expressive and feisty. She's not the calm peacemaker. Joey is much closer to being a 9.


----------



## Stellafera

*My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Types*

Fun facts; the main 6 characters are evenly split between head types, image types, and gut types. No reactive triaders are represented from those characters, but they otherwise divide half-and-half between the competency and positive outlook triads. Symmetry! Also, a lot of social doms and secondaries, befitting the themes of the show. 

*Head Types
*Twilight Sparkle: 5w6 (Tritype 521), Sx-last
Rainbow Dash: So/Sx 7w6 (Tritype 738), though I'm divided between this and 3w2 for her 

*Image Types*
Rarity: So/Sp 3w4 
Pinkie Pie: So/Sx 2w3 (Tritype 271)

*Gut Types*
Applejack: 1w2 (16? Tritype)
Fluttershy: 9w1 Sp/So (definitely 2 in the tritype)

*Spike*
Spike: 6w7 So-dom (one of two reactive types in the entire cast, no wonder why he feels left out)

*Cutie Mark Crusaders*
Apple Bloom: 8w7 (poor Applejack)
Sweetie Belle: 9w8? 
Scootaloo: 3w2 So-dom 

*Other Cast Members
*Discord: 2w1 (287 Tritype)
Starlight Glimmer: 5w6 So-last (a bit of a foil to Twilight Sparkle)
Luna: 1w9
Diamond Tiara: 3w4 (which is basically only discussed in one episode but whatever) 

Kinda of a 3ish show overall; everyone's got a mask hiding some sort of flaw and everyone's trying so hard to be worthy of friendship.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

Stellafera said:


> No reactive triaders are represented from those characters, but they otherwise divide half-and-half between the competency and positive outlook triads. Symmetry! Also, a lot of social doms and secondaries, befitting the themes of the show.


Makes sense, I think often their problems arise from a lack of reactivity (at least that's an impression I got, but I didn't exactly keep tally, so...).


----------



## mistakenforstranger

A movie about an unhealthy 5w6 sp/sx (INTJ):


----------



## Firemoon

@O_o 

For Stranger Things, I got some ideas

Mike - 8w9 I'm not 100% sure, 6w7 is also a possibility 
Dustin - 6w7 or 9w8 
Lucas - 8w7 or 1w2 
Eleven - ???? We'll see
Nancy - 1w2 or 3w2 
Jonathan - 5w6
Steve - 3w2 or 7w? 
Joyce - She's always stressed out so I can't type her
Jim - ??


----------



## Matejko108

Firemoon said:


> @O_o
> 
> For Stranger Things, I got some ideas
> 
> Mike - 8w9 I'm not 100% sure, 6w7 is also a possibility
> Dustin - 6w7 or 9w8
> Lucas - 8w7 or 1w2
> Eleven - ???? We'll see
> Nancy - 1w2 or 3w2
> Jonathan - 5w6
> Steve - 3w2 or 7w?
> Joyce - She's always stressed out so I can't type her
> Jim - ??


I largely agree. 

I think Jim Hopper is a 9w8

Eleven 5w4 I think

Dustin 9w8
Lucas 8w7
Jonathan 5w4 I think, I don't see the 6. he's a "pretentious", artsy loner, tells his brother to be "different".
Will might be a 4w5, but we don't know that much about his personality. 
Steve 3w4. a little too full of himself to have a 2 wing 
Nancy, I think 2w3. But I'm not really sure about her.
Barb is a 1w2 I think.


----------



## Felipe

Matejko108 said:


> Vito Corleone, I'm guessing 8w9 or even 9w8


It seems as if his type is different when he's young from when he's old.


----------



## sometimes

Stellafera said:


> *My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Types*
> 
> Fun facts; the main 6 characters are evenly split between head types, image types, and gut types. No reactive triaders are represented from those characters, but they otherwise divide half-and-half between the competency and positive outlook triads. Symmetry! Also, a lot of social doms and secondaries, befitting the themes of the show.
> 
> *Head Types
> *Twilight Sparkle: 5w6 (Tritype 521), Sx-last
> Rainbow Dash: So/Sx 7w6 (Tritype 738), though I'm divided between this and 3w2 for her
> 
> *Image Types*
> Rarity: So/Sp 3w4
> Pinkie Pie: So/Sx 2w3 (Tritype 271)
> 
> *Gut Types*
> Applejack: 1w2 (16? Tritype)
> Fluttershy: 9w1 Sp/So (definitely 2 in the tritype)
> 
> *Spike*
> Spike: 6w7 So-dom (one of two reactive types in the entire cast, no wonder why he feels left out)
> 
> *Cutie Mark Crusaders*
> Apple Bloom: 8w7 (poor Applejack)
> Sweetie Belle: 9w8?
> Scootaloo: 3w2 So-dom
> 
> *Other Cast Members
> *Discord: 2w1 (287 Tritype)
> Starlight Glimmer: 5w6 So-last (a bit of a foil to Twilight Sparkle)
> Luna: 1w9
> Diamond Tiara: 3w4 (which is basically only discussed in one episode but whatever)


Interesting how the main 6 could be split like that and I agree there don't seem to be many reactive types.

What about Celestia? And do you think Luna could be a type 4. 



> Kinda of a 3ish show overall; everyone's got a mask hiding some sort of flaw and everyone's trying so hard to be worthy of friendship.


haha interesting. I never thought of it like that before..


----------



## Stellafera

sometimes said:


> What about Celestia? And do you think Luna could be a type 4.


I don't know enough about Celestia to judge. Seems like a well-adjusted body type but that's all the vibe I get.

Luna could definitely be a 4.


----------



## Matejko108

House of Cards:

Frank Underwood: 8w9
Claire Underwood: 3w4 
Doug Stamper: 6w5
Peter Russo: 6w5 or 6w7
Zoe Barnes: 7w8
Remy Danton: 8w9 or 3w2
Lucas Goodwin: 6w5
Rachel Posner: 4w3
Adam Galloway: 4w3
Garret Walker: 9w1 
Victor Petrov: 8w9 
Tom Yates: 5w6
Meechum: 6w5
Heather Dunbar: type 1, not sure about the wing
Raymond Tusk: maybe 1w9

any thoughts?


----------



## Stellafera

Superhero enneagrams. This time, a rough, non-artsy *Sp-dom 4w3*...

*Jason Todd, aka Red Hood!* Spoiler for big image:


* *














The Batfamily is really gut-and-head dominated, so perhaps it's not just the "kill bad guys when they're irredeemable" philosophical outlook and the whole "being dead for a really long time because you were too stubborn to get rid of the Joker and he killed me" thing that sets Jason apart. In one sense, he feels like he's the failure of the family and desperately wants Bruce to appreciate him and be proud of him like the other former Robins. In the other sense, he feels like Batman has failed the world and that he's the only one who sees him for the hypocrite he is. He can't really abide by the whole "no-killing" policy no matter how hard he tries. 

Jason has a very cute friendship with Bizzaro in his current series because he sees the broken Superman replica as a castoff just like himself:










And if you're wondering about the 3-wing, here's him in his more villainous days in an earlier comic by Grant Morrison:


* *















----

I'm reading Chuck Dixon's run with Tim Drake as robin right now as well. I'm getting a 6w5 vibe, but I'd probably want to read more of the character to be sure.


----------



## Paradigm

*Friends* (yup, the 90s show)

Chandler: 6w7 SP/SO (694)
Joey: 9w8 SP/SX (974?)
Monica: 1w2 SP/SO (136)
Phoebe: 7w6 SX/SP (782)
Rachel: 3w2 or 6w7 SO/SP ? (369)
Ross: 2w3 SP/SX (261)


----------



## Paradigm

*Archer* (the cartoon)

Archer: 7w8 SO/SX
Lana: 1w2 SO/SP
Malory: 3w4 SP/SX
Cyril: 6w5 SP/SO
Carol: 7w6 SX/SO
Pam: 9w8 SX/SP ?
Keiger: 5w4 SP/SX ?


----------



## Paradigm

Firemoon said:


> For Stranger Things, I got some ideas
> Mike - 8w9 I'm not 100% sure, 6w7 is also a possibility
> Dustin - 6w7 or 9w8
> Lucas - 8w7 or 1w2
> Joyce - She's always stressed out so I can't type her
> Jim - ??


 @Matejko108 

Joyce struck me as a 2, maybe a 2w3. I agree she's too stressed out to type accurately, though.

Agree with most other of your typings. Mike's probably a 6. Dustin 9, Lucas 1. But they could "change" since, well, kids grow up. Dustin had some 7ish traits iirc.

Jim's the police guy right? 9w8, definitely.

I never got too into the show to notice instincts - those tend to be secondary in my typing process (for some reason).


----------



## Miss Bingley

*Grey's Anatomy *(because I'm garbage)
- Meredith Grey: 6w7 sp/sx
- Derek Shepherd: 2w3 
- Cristina Yang: 5w6 or 3w4 
- Miranda Bailey: 9w8
- George O'Malley: 4w5 or 9w1
- Alex Karev: 6w7 or 8w9
- Isobel Stevens: 9w1
- Richard Webber: 8w9
- Addison Montgomery: 3w2
- Callie Torres: 7w6
- Mark Sloan: 7w8
- Arizona Robbins: 4w3
- April Kepner: 1w9
- Jackson Avery: 6w?
- Owen Hunt: 6w5
- Amelia Shepherd: 7w6


----------



## Dangerose

Watching La Niña on Netflix, thinking the main character (Sara/Belky) is a good example of a female 8(w7?). Haven't watched enough to guess the other characters. Manuel seems like a 9ish 2 or 2ish 9, could see 3 too, social services lady seems 1w2 maybe

edit: but I'm curious about other opinions, I could also see 2


----------



## o0india0o

Can anyone type the fictional character Lilo, from the original Disney animated movie, "Lilo & Stitch"_*?*_

I've been kind of curious (but also lazy). I want to say some form of Type 4, but I'm interested in hearing what others think.


----------



## o0india0o

Paradigm said:


> *Friends* (yup, the 90s show)
> 
> Chandler: 6w7 SP/SO (694)
> Joey: 9w8 SP/SX (974?)
> Monica: 1w2 SP/SO (136)
> Phoebe: 7w6 SX/SP (782)
> Rachel: 3w2 or 6w7 SO/SP ? (369)
> Ross: 2w3 SP/SX (261)


I agree with most of these, but I always thought of Phoebe as a Type 4 (unsure of wing), and Ross as a Type 6w5.

I've seen a lot of people Type Joey at Type 7, and I always saw him as a Type 9w8;; so I agree with you there*!*


----------



## Dangerose

Anyone have Cheers opinions?
I read somewhere that the main characters represented each of the types but I can't quite work that one out

Sam: I lean ESTP 2w3, sx/so (thought he was a 3 for a while, can see either one)...6w7 and 8w9 fix
Diane: IxFJ 2w1 so/sx (thought she was a 1 for a while but then I realized I was being stupid)...6w5 and 1w9 fix
Norm: 9w1 6w7 3w2 so/sp
Cliff: 5w6 3w4 1w9 so/sp
Frasier: I see him as a 2w3 on the show Frasier but he came off as more of a 3 on Cheers. 3w2 6w7 1w2 so/sx
Carla: 8w7 and then not sure
Woody: 9w1 2w3 7w6 social
Coach: 3w2 9w1 6w7 self-pres
Rebecca: ugh


----------



## Cat Brainz

Been playing a few sonic games and I can type a few characters based on my best guess.

Sonic- ESTP 7w8 3w2 7w8 Sx/So

Tails- INTP 5w6 9w1 2w1 Sp/So

Knuckles- ISTJ 1w9 6w5 2w1 Sp/Sx

Dr Robo- ENTP 3w4 5w4 8w7 So/Sp


----------



## Dangerose

The Night's Queen said:


> Anyone have Cheers opinions?
> I read somewhere that the main characters represented each of the types but I can't quite work that one out
> 
> Sam: I lean ESTP 2w3, sx/so (thought he was a 3 for a while, can see either one)...6w7 and 8w9 fix
> Diane: IxFJ 2w1 so/sx (thought she was a 1 for a while but then I realized I was being stupid)...6w5 and 1w9 fix


The more I think about thhis the more I think it's correct.

Sam: ESTP 2w3 6w7 (or 7w6?) 8w9 sx/so
Diane: INFJ 2w1 6w5 1w9 so/sx

It seems unusual to have two 2 characters in one show but I think that's what caused the classic Sam/Diane tension . . . they were _both_ too proud to tell the other one how much they needed them, they _both_ had to have the upper hand, they _both_ didn't feel that they were getting enough from the other person, they _both_ want to be doing the other one a favour. . . 

I was considering social-first for Sam because one of the most endearing things about his character is how gently and kindly he'll look at the people in his bar, Norm even calls it 'his own true love' (which I take issue with lol but...anyways, don't think that was referring to the people and social instinct element of it but being an alcoholic bar-owner, such a great metaphor, that's what makes Sam Malone the best character of the 20th century, something about it seems really 2ish for some reason but idk) and he does care a lot what people think of him, but I think he's at home with the social instinct and not neurotic about it . . . unlike Diane who . . . honestly, that's what tore her and Sam apart, unfortunately I can't find it but last night I watched a scene where Diane was being pretentious as usual but Sam is listening to it and you can suddenly see in his eyes that he knows that this is going to be what takes her away from him, sounds fake, if I could make a gif you'd see I was right)))

But in general I think sx/so is better for Sam, so is just floating in the background but sx is at the forefront,I know literal addiction isn't really in the province of sx but he's an alcoholic and a sex addict, and...not sure how to put it, seems better

Not sure about head fix, 8w9 seems good for gut though.

Diane's type seems self-evident


----------



## Dangerose

Watched this episode last night
Seems very 6ish  And not atypical of Ross)
@Paradigm @periwinklepromise

and idk I just can't see him as a heart type, he's so . . . 

Or...his reason for not telling Rachel he was still married to her:

_Ross: Okay, maybe it wasn’t my best decision. But I just couldn’t face another failed marriage.

Chandler: Okay, let me just jump in and ask, at what point did you think this was a successful marriage?

Ross: Rach, come on, if you think about it, it’s actually kinda funny. (He laughs, and he laughs alone.) Okay, maybe it’s best not to think about it._

I mean, technically it's an image concern but it's _such a specific_ image concern that he comes back to and harps on a lot, that it really reads as...not core image type, think 6 makes sense because it feels more like an _insecurity_ than a real shame thing . . . don't really see shame from Ross, just sorta...surface complaining about things that maybe are embarrassing to him (his attitude to Carol being a lesbian is like . . . 'what a weird stupid thing, my friends think this is really embarrassing and I guess I do too, why do bad things happen to good people' but like . . . he never even seems hung up on Carol, except for a couple episodes and even then it feels a lot more 'what a strange trick was played on me', and even when he's pining over Rachel it always comes across as something that _happened_ to him that doesn't have a lot to do with him actually, he's never 'the guy in love with Rachel', he's 'Ross the Paleontologist')

But in general compared to all the Friends he really comes off as someone whom the universe is happening _to_, which I think is what feels so 6ish for me. And _not_ 2, lack of Holy Will is like 'I have to make things happen', don't get that from Ross

And he feels more attachment than power, just in that...he feels really _rooted_, feels like changes come as a big shock to his system, or . . . he has his same pediatrician as a grown man. But I don't really see him as manipulative  He comes off to me as like a deer constantly stuck in the headlights)


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Twist of Fate said:


> Watched this episode last night
> Seems very 6ish  And not atypical of Ross)
> @*Paradigm* @*periwinklepromise*
> 
> and idk I just can't see him as a heart type, he's so . . .


Oh yeah, that's very 6. It's like when Dwight, another 6, simulates a mock fire drill to test the employees to see if they're prepared when there's a real emergency. I haven't seen many episodes of Friends (though, enough to be aware of the characters), but I would agree with Ross being a head type, 6w5 sp/so.








Twist of Fate said:


> I mean, technically it's an image concern but it's _such a specific_ image concern that he comes back to and harps on a lot, that it really reads as...not core image type, think 6 makes sense because it feels more like an _insecurity_ than a real shame thing . . . don't really see shame from Ross, just sorta...surface complaining about things that maybe are embarrassing to him (his attitude to Carol being a lesbian is like . . . 'what a weird stupid thing, my friends think this is really embarrassing and I guess I do too, why do bad things happen to good people' but like . . . he never even seems hung up on Carol, except for a couple episodes and even then it feels a lot more 'what a strange trick was played on me', and even when he's pining over Rachel it always comes across as something that _happened_ to him that doesn't have a lot to do with him actually, he's never 'the guy in love with Rachel', he's 'Ross the Paleontologist')
> 
> But in general compared to all the Friends he really comes off as someone whom the universe is happening _to_, which I think is what feels so 6ish for me. *And not 2, lack of Holy Will is like 'I have to make things happen', don't get that from Ross*
> 
> And he feels more attachment than power, just in that...he feels really _rooted_, feels like changes come as a big shock to his system, or . . . he has his same pediatrician as a grown man. But I don't really see him as manipulative  He comes off to me as like a deer constantly stuck in the headlights)


Yeah, I think of Ted from HIMYM as the Ross of that show, but he's so much more clearly a heart type, 2. You can especially see that lack of Holy Will you talk about in this clip. And yes Ted, I'm  at you lol.


----------



## typethisperson

Riverdale:
Archie Andrews - 2w3 so/sx
Betty Cooper - 2w1 so/sp
Veronica Lodge - 3w2 so/sx
Jughead - 9w8 sp/sx
Cheryl Blossom - an obvious 3 not sure which wing though. so/sp
Kevin Keller - 2 or 6.
Chuck Clayton - 7w8 so/?
Fred Andrews - 1w9 sp/so? 
Cliff Blossom - 3w4 so/sp
Penelope Blossom - an obvious 3 just like her daughter not sure about the wing though. so/sp
Alice Cooper - a twisted 2 or 3 not sure which but if she's a 3 then 3w2 is more likely than 3w4.
Hermoine Lodge - 3w2? so/sp
FP Jones - 8w7? not sure about his instinct because they haven't delved deeper into him as a person.
Geraldine - 1w2?


----------



## Starlorn

Anyone got any ideas for Rick and Morty Characters? I have a few ideas, but I'd rather wait to see what others thought about characters that are definitely unhealthy (like Rick) before I post my thoughts.


----------



## Xzcouter

Starlorn said:


> Anyone got any ideas for Rick and Morty Characters? I have a few ideas, but I'd rather wait to see what others thought about characters that are definitely unhealthy (like Rick) before I post my thoughts.


I have some ideas.

Rick appears to be type 5.

Morty I believe is a 6 (6w5?) with his skeptical self and how he is ruled by his super ego. I dont realky see him as a type 1 as he is very compliant at times and doesn't really become a perfectionist. If anything he is like a 3 at times.


----------



## Starlorn

Xzcouter said:


> I have some ideas.
> 
> Rick appears to be type 5.
> 
> Morty I believe is a 6 (6w5?) with his skeptical self and how he is ruled by his super ego. I dont realky see him as a type 1 as he is very compliant at times and doesn't really become a perfectionist. If anything he is like a 3 at times.


I agree 100% about Morty!

As for Rick, I agree AND disagree. I do think 5 is definitely in his tritype and may be his Core Type, but I think he has a strong four wing at the least.

1. Rick has issues with his own self-identity. He constantly has to reiterate his perceived personality traits through outlandish and almost dramatic actions. This is very four-like, I don't see fives doing this kind of rather outlandish reaction.
2. His emotions are super over-dramatic, and cause him to act in completely over-the-top manners. I don't see a five doing this at least as often as Rick does.
3. He seems to disintegrate towards 2; becoming emotionally manipulative, clingy, and pushing everyone away all at the same time. This does not seem like a disintegration towards 7.
4. He is obsessed more with his self-image as being 'The Smartest' (even though he is incredibly intelligent don't get me wrong) than with actually... Doing constructive-esque things/trying to gain more information truly as a goal. He seems to try to perpetuate the idea of his intellect as opposed to simply 'being' that way. As a 4w5 myself I do this _a whole ton_.
5. The alchohol/drug/suicide attempt loop that he keeps going in makes more sense as an 'Unhealthy Four' than a 'Unhealthy (schizoid-like) Five'.


So, maybe 5 with a strong 4 wing, or a 5-4-x tritype?


EDIT: As for an example of (a) Rick integrating towards one on the healthier side of the scale, 'Our/c-137 Rick' has not been healthy probably the whole time the show has aired. But _'Police/Cop/Redshirt/Rookie' Rick of Season 3 Episode 7_ seems quite healthy and principled; it seems that he has integrated towards 1 with his rules and such. I have yet to see any Rick integrate towards 8? If you find anything let me know! In fact, Ricks seem to have a lot of 8 qualities just already, when pushed far enough. Makes me wonder if that's also in the tritype.


----------



## Paradigm

@Lord Fenix Wulfheart

A while ago, like months, you mentioned Amberdrake from Mercedes Lackey's books in the Mistype thread. Well, I finally got around to them (halfway through book 2, and IIRC book 3 barely has anything to do with him) and I think he's maybe a 9w1 SO/SX. 

My first guess was maybe 1w2, or the obvious 2w1, but neither really fit... He's too self-effacing, too ready to accept things. A 1w2 has obvious anger and sometimes boundary issues, as can a 2w1 but for different reasons. Drake goes out of his way to understand people, to help them, to reason with them, to serve them. There's no hints as to any fear- or shame-related issues, but he is repeatedly admonished for forgetting himself, and he does sometimes act as a sort of Positive beacon for others, which tends to lean towards 9, I think. 

The SO/SX variant for 9w1 can be easy to miss, too, confusing it for other types. But I can't really see any reason beyond Lackey's own bias (which I don't mean to sound as a negative to her writing; everyone has their own bias) to not type him as any other variant. Drake is far more socially-aware than anyone around him (except maybe the high-born), and fits the "comfortability" of SX-mid pretty well. Skan could maybe be an SO/SX, too, but he seems more... 3ish.


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## star tripper

Holy Christ, how is Rick Sanchez a 5? He is so 7w8 it's obnoxious. There's literally a whole episode where he's like, "Can't we just pretend everything's alright and have fun?" (Season 1 finale) That screams positive outlook. Obviously he's a bit of a cynic, but at the end of the day, he just expects to survive his adventures, to make it out alright. He dives into highs so that he doesn't have to face the lows.

"Don't think about it." 7 as FUCK.

I might accept an argument though that he is a RIDICULOUSLY disintegrated 5. Like inhumanly disintegrated. He is fictional after all.


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## Lady Golden

Yes, Rick Sanchez is completely 7w8 Sx. I used to know an ENTP 7w8 Sx/Sp who was very much like him, which it makes it all the more obvious to me. 
There is also this episode where he becomes young (mini-Rick), wants have as much fun as possible and refuses to look at his old, desperate self inward, which is a perfect illustration for type 7 passion. 

Morty is probably 6w7 Sp/So, Jerry 3w2 So/Sp (strongly disintegrated into 9), Summer I would say 3w2 So/Sx and I'm not very sure for Beth (3w4 ? 1w9 ? or even 8w9 ? Sp/Sx).


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## Marshy

Let's not


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## Starlorn

I just don't see Rick as a 7 at all. 

I mean; if wanting to 'have fun' and think about the consequences later every once in a while makes you a seven; then I guess everyone in the entire world is a seven. Tiny Rick was in no way a good example of how the actual Rick as we know him actually is; for one the 'Real Rick' was trying to _get out_ of Tiny Rick. That, and most people won't even -try- to type a young person because their personalities are supposedly not quite stable; so why would we base a whole character's enneatype off of a one-off old-man being repressed in a young/flawed teenage mind situation?

He definitely in no way has a positive outlook either; it's more like he's trying to run from something (classic unhealthy EVERY TYPE mentality) or convince himself of his own personality traits because he doesn't really see any meaning in a life where there are infinite versions of himself, his family, and everyone around him. Nothing matters.

There is -no way- that guy is a seven. I'd almost agree to ANY other type over that. I also believe that he's not a core-five; but he's definitely not a seven.


EDIT: I'm not like Rick really at all; but even I get in moods where I just want to not think about depressing stuff all the time; so I go get very drunk and tell folks just to let everything go for a little while. So that I get a break from considering and re-considering my internal bull. So if me getting plastered and trying not to think about bad stuff makes me a seven (which I otherwise act nothing like) then _I guess_ Rick is a seven just based off of that too.



EDIT2: I think what I should be asking myself is _what motivates this mofo_? I mean, the creators have already stated that they are not going to give us the answer to that question, but I figure all the types have that core motivation/fear that makes them what they are... So what does this dude fear?

I think it's commitment, honestly; but that would make him fiveish.


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## star tripper

Starlorn said:


> I just don't see Rick as a 7 at all.
> 
> I mean; if wanting to 'have fun' and think about the consequences later every once in a while makes you a seven; then I guess everyone in the entire world is a seven.


From time to time? This is what he wants to do _every single episode_. He wants to have fun and/or make money. 



> Tiny Rick was in no way a good example of how the actual Rick as we know him actually is; for one the 'Real Rick' was trying to _get out_ of Tiny Rick. That, and most people won't even -try- to type a young person because their personalities are supposedly not quite stable; so why would we base a whole character's enneatype off of a one-off old-man being repressed in a young/flawed teenage mind situation?


Totally get your point but Tiny Rick was exactly like Real Rick but without the cynicism. Is he really so different from the Rick of the season 1 finale? Or the Rick who just wants to party with Unity endlessly?



> He definitely in no way has a positive outlook either; it's more like he's trying to run from something


*This is what type 7 is about.*

And also, I don't understand how someone whose philosophy is literally "just don't think about it" isn't positive outlook. He's literally saying don't think about the negative things because it's too painful, which is type 7 positive outlook in a nutshell. Not wanting to think about negativity or at least delaying it with good vibes (like partying or turning yourself into a pickle to avoid therapy).



> EDIT: I'm not like Rick really at all; but even I get in moods where I just want to not think about depressing stuff all the time; so I go get very drunk and tell folks just to let everything go for a little while. So that I get a break from considering and re-considering my internal bull. So if me getting plastered and trying not to think about bad stuff makes me a seven (which I otherwise act nothing like) then _I guess_ Rick is a seven just based off of that too.


Once again, this is not a mood for him -- this is standard procedure. You're acting like his 7 tendencies happen every once in a while but they happen every second of every episode. I've been noticing a tendency of Rick and Morty fans to focus on how genius Rick is rather than how fucking stupid he is. He runs into danger half-cocked (again, veeeeeery anti-5), he physically challenges people who bruise his ego, he is a man-child, he refuses to face the consequences of his actions, opting instead to run to another dimension. Imo, this is why Rick is such a rich character; you don't see nerds portrayed the way he is basically ever. He doesn't care about school because it's boring and doesn't stimulate you. He only cares about going on adventures, having fun, and being able to do things others can only dream of.

And yes, a lot of the above is 7, with a pinch of 5 flavor (integration) and the judgmental broodiness of disintegration to 1.


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## typethisperson

Mean Girls:
Cady ESFJ 6w7 so/sp
Regina ESTJ 3w2 so/sp
Gretchen ESFJ 2w3 so/sp
Janis ISTP 5w4 
Aaron ISFP 9w1 
Karen ESFP 6w7 (hence why a lot seem to think she's an ENFP - it's the nervous energy rather than her being an ENFP.)
Ms. Norbury ISTJ 6w5 sp/so
Kevin Gnapoor ENTJ 6w7 so/sx?
Principal Duvall ESTJ 1w2 so/sp?

Leap Year:
Anne ESFJ 2w1 so/sp
Declan ESTP 7w8 sx/so
Jeremy ESTJ 3w2 so/sp

Riverdale:
Betty - ESFJ 6w7 or 2w1 so/sp (i honestly don't know which)
Archie - ESFx 2w3 or 6w7 so/sx (i don't know which either.)
Jughead - ISFP 9w8 sx/sp
Veronica - ESTP 3w2 sx/so who resembles a 7w8 sometimes cause she's an impulsive mbti type.
Cheryl - ESTJ 3w2 so/sp
Archie's dad - ESTJ 1w9 or 6w7 so/sp
Betty's mum - ESTJ 3w2 so/sp
Hermoine - ESTJ 3w2 sp/so

Alice in Wonderland (animated movie):
Alice - ENFP 6w7 sx/so?
Queen of Hearts - ESTJ 8w7 so/sp
The White Rabbit - ISTJ 6w5 sp/sp
Caterpillar - INTJ 5w4 sp/sx
Cheshire Cat - ENTP 7w6 sx/so?

Charmed:
Prue - ESTJ 1w2 so/sp
Piper - ISFJ 6w5 sp/so
Phoebe ESFP 7w6 so/sx 
Leo - INFJ 1w9 so/sp
Cole ENTJ 3w2 sx/?

Not Going Out:
Lee - ESTP 6w7 sp/so
Lucy - ESTJ 1w2 so/sp
Tim - ISFJ 6w5 so/sp
Tim's gf - ENFP 7w6 so/sx


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## d e c a d e n t

mistakenforstranger said:


> @*Distortions*, here's a character that I see as 7w8 sx/so. He's unhealthy and in flight of his pain all throughout the movie. He doesn't acknowledge his true feelings or ever slow down, unlike Jack whose feelings we're aware of throughout the whole movie in various soliloquies. He isn't motivated by envy: "I want it for my own," or changes who he is to become his ideal. Gary's all about having as much fun as he can with his old friends, so that he won't see anything wrong with his life or feel any pain. It's all lurking under the surface, though.
> 
> In this scene, he shows the rationalization of 7s when he first shows up from 1:07 - 1:15:
> 
> "How is that a problem?"


yeah I'm thinking 4 for Jack now


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## Paradigm

*New Girl*

Jess: 2w1 SO/SX
Nick: 6w5 SP/SO, counterphobic-ish
Schmidt: 3w4 SO/SP
Winston: 6w7 SP/SX
Cece: 7w8 SO/SX

Edit2: Coach seems like a 3w2, maybe SP?

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Edit:
Oh, and I don't remember saying this here yet, so... I'm leaning towards 7w6 or 9w8 for Rachel (on Friends) now. Still SO/SP. 3w2 could fit on a superficial level, but in retrospect 6w7's fears doesn't fit well at all. She has the laid-back (she's "a pushover") quality of 7 or 9, but a lot of the issues she has seem fear-based, IMO, not anger-based.


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## No_this_is_patrick

Nissa Nissa said:


> *Brooklyn Nine-Nine*
> Jake: ENFP 7w (don't get a 6 or 8 vibe so I'm going with 7w8 because I always make 7w6 default 7, time for a change), 7w8 3w2 9w1 so/sx
> Amy: ISFJ and then obviously 1, 2, or 3 but not sure which one... gonna say 2w1 6w7 1w9 sp/so for fun, not sold though
> Boyle: ESFJ 6w7 9w1 2w3 so/sp
> Holt: ISTJ 1w9 5w6 3w4 sp/so
> Terry: no clue lol, maybe 269 tritype though
> Rosa: ESTP 8w9 6w7 2w3 sx/so
> Pimento: didn't see enough of him but I think maybe 6w7 9w8 2w3 sx/sp
> Gina: ENTP 7w6 4w3 9w8 so/sp
> 
> These are just guesses so there's a starting point for discussion.


Don't worry, just quoting you ~nine months later lol. I just finished Brooklyn 99 recently. I agree with a lot of what you said.

Jake: 7w6 3w2 9w8 So/sx
Amy: 3w2 1w2 6w5 So/sp (3 and 1 are tied for me. I don't think she is a 2 though)
Holt: 1w9 5w6 3w4 sp/so
Boyle: 2w1 6w7 9w1 sx/so (I see Boyle as very sexual. Maybe his most defining characteristic.)
Terry: 9w8 2w1 6w7 sp/so
Rosa: 8w9 6w7 4w5 sx/sp (not seeing the 2w3 in Rosa at all, or the social instinct)
Gina: 7w8 3w4 8w7 sp/so


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## Matejko108

Okay, on the occasion of the new season, let's do Better Call Saul:

Jimmy - 7w6 (3w2 is another possibility)
Chuck - 1w9
Howard - 3w4
Kim - 1w2
Mike - 8w9 sp. often gets typed as 6w5, but I don't see it. he is grounded, steady and quiet but also ballsy, independent, confident, strong, assertive, has no patience for bullshit. his aggression is tempered by the desire to have his peace and spend some time in harmony with his family, that's the 9 wing. 
Gus - I'd say type 1. 1w9. I know this is not a popular typing but he's so meticulous, rigid and orderly. there seems to be a lot of pent-up rage.
Nacho - 6w5
Tuco and Hector Salamanca are both 8s


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## Jerdle

Severus Snape - ISFP cp6w5-4w3-(either 1 or 8).


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## d e c a d e n t

Jerdle said:


> Severus Snape - ISFP cp6w5-4w3-(either 1 or 8).


Why?


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## Jerdle

Reactive, grumpy, protective, strong superego, basically good but an ass about it. All very 6.

4 is completely undeniable - Lily and calling himself the Half-Blood Prince (also has a bit of cp6 to it).

I think 1 is most likely for his gut fix. 8s value emotional control less and are more physically aggressive (Moody's a 68x, both the real and fake ones).

ISFP might seem a bit odd from an MBTI perspective, but in Socionics, the ESI (Fi-Se like the ISFP) is described as inwardly emotional and focused on relationships, yet outwardly tough, strict and detached.


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## d e c a d e n t

Jerdle said:


> Reactive, grumpy, protective, strong superego, basically good but an ass about it. All very 6.
> 
> 4 is completely undeniable - Lily and calling himself the Half-Blood Prince (also has a bit of cp6 to it).
> 
> I think 1 is most likely for his gut fix. 8s value emotional control less and are more physically aggressive (Moody's a 68x, both the real and fake ones).
> 
> ISFP might seem a bit odd from an MBTI perspective, but in Socionics, the ESI (Fi-Se like the ISFP) is described as inwardly emotional and focused on relationships, yet outwardly tough, strict and detached.


Yeah, I'd guess 4 first.


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## Cosmic Chaos

SpongeBob 

SpongeBob= ESFJ 2w3 7w6 9w1 So/Sp
Patrick= ESFP 9w8 7w6 ? Sp/So
Squidward= ISTJ 4w3 1w9 5w6 So/Sp
Mr Krabs= ESTJ 3w2 8w9 5w6 Sp/So
Plankton= ENTJ 3w4 8w9 5w6 Sp/So


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## mysticalminstrel

no idea why y'all think snape is a 6. he's the dude who wrote all over his textbooks and created brilliant potions and spells while he was still in school--that feels more 5 to me. correct me if i'm wrong but i feel like a 6 would do things more by the book whereas snape made up his own rules and invented shit. he's also arrogant and condescending towards people who aren't as knowledgeable as he is (specifically his students) which i think supports him being a 5 as well. i can see 5w6 _maybe_ because of his unwavering loyalty to lily but definitely not a 6 core. he's not anxious enough for it. he didn't give a shit about ideology, he just wanted the power he'd been denied his whole life. 

or maybe he's just a really unhealthy 6 and i'm wrong. who knows?

honestly i think he fits 4 a lot better than 6. he spent half his life mourning a dead woman and couldn't move on from his troubled past, he reveled in his pain and sadness and refused to address them as actual issues, and he is quite dramatic and emotional--especially when he's angry. he also has the envy vice that 4s do, and i think he fits that more than the 5 vice. he was probably more withdrawn as a teenager but i think as he aged and grew more bitter he only grew into his 4 core.

maybe 8 for his gut fix? he's not the most physical person but he does get pretty fired up, and he responds to conflict physically and loudly. i also think he has quite a bit of lust for power--he did choose to join voldemort's cause, after all. i really don't see 9 or 1 for him at all anyway, so 8 makes the most sense.

in summary i think he's _probably_ sx/sp 4w5-5w4-8w7, but that's just my opinion, you know?


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