# Who am I? A little ramble about my life



## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Hello 
I would love to know what you guys would type me based on what I am now going to write about myself. I didn't feel like filling out a certain questionnaire, so I'm just going to tell you a bit about myself, just random things that come to my mind. Don't hesitate to ask me further questions in order to type me. (I'm rather new to the MBTI theory, so I am not too familiar with all the backgrounds and functions and all that jazz. Please forgive me, if the following mess, isn't helpful to you at all.)
Here we go.
I am 23 y/o female and I am very sure that I am an introvert. Especially since I read "Quiet" by Susan Cain (a recommendation!). I don't draw energy from interacting with people. In fact it exhausts me and I am definitely someone who needs to spend time all by myself in order to recharge. That doesn't mean I don't like people or interacting with them. But there is simply a certain level that I can take and once that is reached I start to get tired and irritated and might get quite snappish and annoying towards other people. I hate clubbing, but I love classic houseparties from time to time. I like goofing around, not minding making a fool out of myself, especially when I am kinda tipsy. But on a regular basis I am rather serious. I am in my 5th year of med school and being serious and focused is absolutely necessary, if you want to succeed as a student and later as a doctor. I've done quite well so far, I have no problem interacting with patients. When I started my studies, I was unsure, if I could be a comforter for them, offer emotional and professional support. I guess I can do both now. I really grew during these past years. But I also came to realize that being a doctor is actually not what I want to do with my life. I am simply not passionate about it. Lately I've thought a lot about this. My future, my past, my goals in life. Since I'm not a quitter Im going to work hard to get my degree, but I don't know yet, if I will work as a clinician. I miss a creative outlet. It would be something I would have to take care of in my free time, but lets be honest: A young doctor doesn't have much free time and I don't know, if I could cope with the conditions, if I am not passionate about it. (It's somethinf that's really worrying me these days. My future). My dream is being a psychotherapist (I could become a psychiatrist and then a psychotherapist, so it is possible) and I would love to do dance therapy. It is a thing. I did my research. Which brings me to a passion of mine: dancing. I started doing ballet when I was 4, then I became a figure skater, I quit when I started university and started to do contemporary and jazz shortly after that. Dancing is something I love with my whole heart. Expressing yourself through movement, expressing what cannot be put into words. Feeling the music. I could go on about this forever, but I guess you get the idea. In general I am a rather sporty person. I also love to run (well, I go through phases of motivation where I run on a regular basis, and then I completely lose it and don't run for weeks) and do yoga. I try to be mindful and present in the day. I try to plan (I love planning), but I often find myself to not sticking to my plans, because I want to do everything perfectly and things often take me a lot longer than planned. Yes, I am a terrible prefectionist. I want to excel in everything I do. There is this weird contradiction in me of wanting to be noticed as an excellent (Insert some skill) and not wanting to grab anyone's attention. Can someone relate? 
I have a few friendships I believe will last a lifetime. I can't imagine anything that could tear us apart (not even boys ). I'm someone my friends can turn to when they are in trouble (well, an important part of friendship), I will offer support and think of solutions. Yet I myself have a hard time opening up to anyone, even my close friends. I rather overthink my problems completely on my own. I wish I could just go and tell someone, but I hate to make myself vulnerable, even thpigh that's probably not even the case. I am also rather scared of standing up for my believes. I mean I do my thing, but I'd rather not tell many people, because I don't want to have to justify myself or hurt anybody. I crave harmony! I am not resentful. When I fight with someone, which is a rare thing, I am usually the one to say "I am sorry." (I've got to work on that, because sometimes I AM right and should'nt let people walk over me.)

Okay, that's all I can think of just now. I hope you got a slight impression of what kind of person I am. In case I used wierd phrases/wrong grammar, I'm sorry. I am not a native speaker 
Take care and bye for now


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

ISFJ is my first guess.

Introversion is obvious here. Your post outlines tangible things that relate to your day to day life, without abstracting an intangible concept from it all, which shows sensing. I see a lot of rumination on values, and you pride yourself on doing right by others and long term support, which shows a preference for feeling. You have a strong need to organise things and stick to commitments, which points to judging.

I'm quite willing to answer questions you might have about your type, but I'd like to stick to questions about the dichotomies and their combinations.

EDIT: I noticed that your username is German for "and she dances". Bist du Deutsche? Dein Englisch ist sehr gut.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> I'm quite willing to answer questions you might have about your type, but I'd like to stick to questions about the dichotomies and their combinations.
> 
> EDIT: I noticed that your username is German for "and she dances". Bist du Deutsche? Dein Englisch ist sehr gut.


You mean as in differentiating between sensing/intuition or thinking/feeling etc.? I've read a bit about the difference between sensing and intuition, because that's the letter in my type that i'm most unsure about. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. Additionally, I am unsure when asking me these questions, if my answer is based on what I actually am or what I want myself to be like.
And yes I am from Germany! Danke! I try to watch movies and tv shows in English, if it's the original language and I also read a lot of english literature to improve my skills.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> You mean as in differentiating between sensing/intuition or thinking/feeling etc.? I've read a bit about the difference between sensing and intuition, because that's the letter in my type that i'm most unsure about. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. Additionally, I am unsure when asking me these questions, if my answer is based on what I actually am or what I want myself to be like.
> And yes I am from Germany! Danke! I try to watch movies and tv shows in English, if it's the original language and I also read a lot of english literature to improve my skills.


Yeah, dichotomies such as T or F and S or N. When I look for N in people, I look for higher minded conceptual thinking. I don't just mean having ideas about how the world works or being creative and artistic, because sensors do that stuff too. Sensing is not just taking things in with the five senses. What I expect from an intuitive type is a certain preoccupation with the archetype.

As intelligent as sensors can be, they will still tie ideas to things which are tangible to them. For instance, when asked to describe what the sea means to a person, a sensor wouldn't necessarily look at the sea and say "that's the sea". They might instead look at the sea and describe how the effect of the waves makes them feel, or observe the way the waves affect the landscape. But they will still be relating their perceptions to what is observable in some way.

An intuitive, on the other hand, will explore what the idea of a thing more so than the actual thing itself. In my case, I would look at the sea and think of the sea as a dysfunctional relationship between the Moon and the ocean. The ocean yearns to get closer to the Moon and win her affections, while the Moon just tempts him without reciprocating his affections. The tides represent the moods of the ocean as he wrestles with his own affections, and yet the nature of the inner conflict is cyclical without end in sight.

How would you describe the sea?

The Barnum effect is indeed a problem in the typology community, and I suspect many self-typed intuitives are sensors for that reason. While I think the MBTI model has more empirical support than the cognitive functions, which is why I used it in typing you, I will concede it has its flaws. There are a couple of test items in the official MBTI test where some answers obviously sound better than others. If you ask any given person on the street whether they would be abstract or concrete, most people would say they are abstract despite the majority of people being sensors. Even the descriptions of each type tend to overidealise intuitives while making sensors out to be mindless worker drones. No wonder a lot of sensors don't want to recognise themselves in many of those descriptions.

When you read about INFJs, you think of visionaries who are a huge inspiration and influence on the lives of people around them, with an uncanny ability to get human nature and what's on a person's mind. You think of zany and wonderful cranks who make incomprehensible art. But when you read about ISFJs, you might find them to be a lot blander. Just maids and washerwomen who don't forget their P's and Q's.

Bitte.  Keep up the good work with English learning.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> But when you read about ISFJs, you might find them to be a lot blander. Just maids and washerwomen who don't forget their P's and Q's.


This actually made me laugh  I totally get what you say here. I guess many people want to be something special and therefore certain types are favored over others. 

Well, here is my attempt at explaining what the sea means to me (what follows now is a train of thought, I haven't thought this through): The sea covers 71% of the earth and inhabits the majority of life. It is full of undiscovered and untouched places and in this sense it resembles the universe, everything beyond and the human brain. So much we don't know, so much yet to discover. The sea can be a monster, swallowing ships and planes (The Bermuda-Triangle ), but it can also be calm and peaceful, greeting us with its gorgeous torquoise color. The sea reminds me of childhood, building sandcastles that later got destroyed by the flood. It reminds me of lazy days when I felt its cooling effect on my heated, sun burned skin after reading too long in the sun. The sea reminds me of the fear its force triggered in me, the fear of drowning, losing orientation in the waves that could easily shake my body around. The sea seems to have uncountable personalities, you never know what it has in store for you. The sea should be respected by us. The exploitation has to stop or else we might get into trouble (this is actually a reference to a book called "Der Schwarm" by the German author Frank Schätzing, where the sea finally revolts against humanity (or something like that, I haven't read it)).
So there you have it. Probably a bland and boring ISFJ-housewife writing  (just kidding)


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> This actually made me laugh  I totally get what you say here. I guess many people want to be something special and therefore certain types are favored over others.
> 
> Well, here is my attempt at explaining what the sea means to me (what follows now is a train of thought, I haven't thought this through): The sea covers 71% of the earth and inhabits the majority of life. It is full of undiscovered and untouched places and in this sense it resembles the universe, everything beyond and the human brain. So much we don't know, so much yet to discover. The sea can be a monster, swallowing ships and planes (The Bermuda-Triangle ), but it can also be calm and peaceful, greeting us with its gorgeous torquoise color. The sea reminds me of childhood, building sandcastles that later got destroyed by the flood. It reminds me of lazy days when I felt its cooling effect on my heated, sun burned skin after reading too long in the sun. The sea reminds me of the fear its force triggered in me, the fear of drowning, losing orientation in the waves that could easily shake my body around. The sea seems to have uncountable personalities, you never know what it has in store for you. The sea should be respected by us. The exploitation has to stop or else we might get into trouble (this is actually a reference to a book called "Der Schwarm" by the German author Frank Schätzing, where the sea finally revolts against humanity (or something like that, I haven't read it)).
> So there you have it. Probably a bland and boring ISFJ-housewife writing  (just kidding)


I really loved reading your description of the sea. The sea was outer space before we could build ships that flew above our planet's atmosphere. So much to explore, and so much still unknown to us. Reading this and reading your original post, I still think you're more of a sensor because your insights about it are directly related to observable aspects of the sea itself.

So yeah, I'm still going with ISFJ, but feel free to take my opinions on your type with a grain of salt.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> So yeah, I'm still going with ISFJ, but feel free to take my opinions on your type with a grain of salt.


I read a bit about the ISFJ personality type and it resonnates with me a lot. Whenever I took a test I got the INFJ. The first time I took an MBTI test (not the real one, I would never pay for that ) I was quite shocked by the results and how much the description of the INFJ resembled myself (especially the concept of the "old soul", being an extroverted introvert, feeling misunderstood all the time, being absent-minded and a dreamer; but I guess that this isn't really something that couldn't be applied to other types as well). I found great blogs about introversion and INFJs, but I was always asking myself "Am I really an INFJ?" I even considered INFP, but I was always too lazy/busy/uninterested to really educate myself about the functions and the differences between them and the whole concept of MBTI. When I read through the type descriptions of ISFJ and INFJ I can see a lot of both in myself and I honestly cannot say which one suits me better. I also can't really say, if I favor Sensing over Intuition. The tests online often aks questions such as "Do you find yourself lost in thoughts when wandering through nature?" Yes, I do! But that doesn't make me more of an intuitive, right? Or something like that: "Do you remember events in detail?" I, personally, have some snippets in my head, like photographies. For example I remember what a certain person wore or what he/she said to me or what he/she smelled like. But I would have difficulties to give a detailed and chronologically ordered report of an event to someone, because there is this one detail that I focussed on when memorizing it and I tend to overlook everything else or simply forget about it. And when I want to tell the story, I am overly excited to come to this certain and important point, that it simply doesn't make sense to anyone/isn't funny at all.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Also, is there a link between enneagram and MBTI? I've always typed as a 4w5 and sometimes 5w4. Are certainenneagram types linked to ceratin MBTI types or are these two distinct concepts? I did a quick research and haven't found my findings very helpul :/


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> Also, is there a link between enneagram and MBTI? I've always typed as a 4w5 and sometimes 5w4. Are certainenneagram types linked to ceratin MBTI types or are these two distinct concepts? I did a quick research and haven't found my findings very helpul :/


One reason I don't like the enneagram system - other than the unwieldy number of number combinations - is that it can be used to justify any typing of any particular person. So that INFP over there orients all of their values and major decisions around external criteria of success, and not out of an inner need for purity? Oh, they are an INFP 3w2, so they happen to be different from your usual INFP 4w5!

It's absurd.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

You misspelt "perfectionist".

Do you resonate with this?


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> One reason I don't like the enneagram system - other than the unwieldy number of number combinations - is that it can be used to justify any typing of any particular person. So that INFP over there orients all of their values and major decisions around external criteria of success, and not an out of an inner need for purity? Oh, they are an INFP 3w2, so they happen to be different from your usual INFP 4w5!
> 
> It's absurd.


Hm. I get what you're saying, and have noticed it.

Perhaps Big 5/SLOAN is an option?

I've noticed the correlations between that, and MBTI, tend to stack up.

Big Five Personality Test


I mean if you were to get, say, INFP and INFJ on mbti style tests, and you resonate with Enneagram type 4 (often associated with Fi) and you get RxUAI, you're probably an INFP.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

Turi said:


> Hm. I get what you're saying, and have noticed it.
> 
> Perhaps Big 5/SLOAN is an option?
> 
> ...


Yes, I believe there is a correlation between the MBTI dichotomies and the Big Five dimensions (minus neuroticism). In fact, it's largely due to the correlation between MBTI and the less questionable Big Five model that made me convert from functions to dichotomies, hence why I'm willing to humour MBTI for a bit longer.

I know that you think @undsietanzt might be an Fi-Se, and that we are effectively approaching her type from two different angles. But what are your thoughts on this? Do you see @undsietanzt as an ISFP from a dichotomies perspective?

I suppose a preference in one's motives could make or break the difference between whether they are a P or a J, but from a Harold Grant perspective, you would be arguing whether someone was an Fi-Ne-Si-Te or an Ni-Fe-Ti-Se. This is one reason I try to separate Jung and MBTI. From a purer Jungian perspective, INFP or INFJ would be the choice between whether Ni or Fi was dominant, although P and J do not correlate cleanly with rational and irrational functions


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

@undsietanzt

I think INFJ or ISFP is for you, but I lean towards INFJ. And not just because of the stereotypical desire to be a psychotherapist, of course.



> Dancing is something I love with my whole heart. Expressing yourself through movement, expressing what cannot be put into words. Feeling the music. I could go on about this forever, but I guess you get the idea.


This is very Se and feeling oriented. The INFJ I know is a massive fan of singing for a similar reason. You are most likely on the Ni-Se axis. There is a possibility you are also ISFP due to the nature of being an introverted feeler on the Ni-Se axis, so check that out as well.



> I try to plan (I love planning), but I often find myself to not sticking to my plans, because I want to do everything perfectly and things often take me a lot longer than planned. Yes, I am a terrible prefectionist


This is quite typical of Ti. 



> But I also came to realize that being a doctor is actually not what I want to do with my life. I am simply not passionate about it. Lately I've thought a lot about this. My future, my past, my goals in life


A very Ni pondering to ponder.

I could have the INFJ I know generate some further questions, if you would like.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Turi said:


> You misspelt "perfectionist".
> 
> Do you resonate with ?


Thank you for pointing that out? (Was this a joke or something like that? )
I checked the description. 
Se: "They live in the moment and prefer dealing with things that are real and solid over the purely hypothetical." I do not resonate with that. I do not live in the moment. I either think of the future or dwell on the past. I know that this is a rather unhealthy behavior, so I try to acknowledge my surroundings and enjoy the moment, but it's definitely something I have to force myself to. I am a daydreamer at its finest. As I child I was actually making up stories in my mind while I was out for walks with my family and would write them down later. One was about animals living in a huge carved pumpkin. 
Fi: "At their best, Fi-dominant types (FiSe and FiNe) are masters of self-care and great at putting healthy boundaries in place. They are very empathetic people, so they see the needs of others and want to care for them. However, healthy Fi-doms know that they cannot effectively care for others unless they first care for themselves. They know their limits and aren’t usually afraid of saying ‘no’ when they aren’t able to do something or fit something into their lives." No, sadly. I usually say "yes", bevause first I get excited to take on a new responsibility/be some sort of a help, and then I realize, oops that might have been to much. How am I going to cope with that? And then I end up doing it anyway, leaving me exhausted and stressed and anxious, but not showing it at all. People perceive me as the quiet, but calm and confident one, even though that's often not the case.

"This process can be very connected to deep emotions, and they might find themselves laughing or crying at the beauty of a seemingly random object that has meaning to them, while bystanders who notice their reaction might be quite confused at their sudden outburst" - me

"An Fi user’s moral code is derived from what their conscience or "gut instinct" tells them is right, generally treating others the way they themselves want to be treated" - That sounds about right, but I would not force something on someone just because I feel it is right for me. I'd rather think about what is right for them in their personal situation that probably differs from mine.

"Fi’s driving instinct is to achieve inner harmony by remaining true to themselves and their values while minimizing the influence that external factors (societal expectations, and maybe even the opinions of friends and family) have on their values." - I wish I was like that. It's something I still have to learn. Standing up for my believes and not caring too much what other people think... 

I think I rather use Fe (do you say it like that? I "use" a certain function?). I realize what I need to do/how I need to act to make other people happy, I sense how they feel simply by glancing at them or talking for a bit. I have to interact with a lot of people at work. The nurses, doctors and most of all many patients and I've realized that I can have a positive impact on people's mood with what I say/how I act around them, if I actively engage in that. Is my understanding of Fe correct? 
I also did this Big5 Test and I got RLOAI. The description of that result was, to put it carefully, quite offensive. Basically I am a weak, anxious, lonely, incredibly self-conscious person that plans out everything in detail and has health problems all the time.  And that is NOT true.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Birbsofafeather said:


> [MENTION=495690]
> 
> I could have the INFJ I know generate some further questions, if you would like.


That would be lovely


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> I also did this Big5 Test and I got RLOAI. The description of that result was, to put it carefully, quite offensive. Basically I am a weak, anxious, lonely, incredibly self-conscious person that plans out everything in detail and has health problems all the time.  And that is NOT true.


Reserved = Introvert, Limbic = Neuroticism (not an MBTI dichotomy), Organized = Judging, Accommodating = Feeling, and Inquisitive = Intuition. There is a correlation between RLOAI and the INFJ type.

The negative slant towards your Big Five type description can be attributed to the neuroticism in your results. The descriptions for all the neurotic types are negative and critical. For what it's worth, I tested as Limbic as well, so I share your pain. 

Your preference for inquisitiveness calls my assessment of you being a sensor into check. I'll admit that I might have gone too far in the opposite direction in rebuking sensor bias, to the point of coming around full circle to an intuitive bias. Perhaps I might have set an unreasonable criteria for what makes a person an intuitive, where if a person didn't describe abstractions in a way that was completely and utterly detached from the object, I would question if they were an intuitive in the first place. Even when you were relating your insights about the sea directly to the sea itself, you were still talking about an overall vision or idea involved. The idea of the unknown and the prospects of possibility in that unknown.

Maybe you are an INFJ?


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

To directly quote the INFJ after sending her a copy of your post:

"Yup INFJ, easy.

Ask her if she loves the idea of drinking hot chocolate as she looks up at the first snowflakes of winter as they fall past a streetlight at night 

Or if she likes laying underwater and looking at how weird the reflection of the surface of the water looks from down below."

Oddly specific imo, but these are the sorts of things she likes to talk about sometimes. Strange Ni-Fe processing.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Birbsofafeather said:


> To directly quote the INFJ after sending her a copy of your post:
> 
> "Yup INFJ, easy.
> 
> ...


Wow! This is so strange to read, because I've basically had the exact same thoughts and many more in that kind of "style". Like sitting on the window sill with a hot cup of tea and watching the rain running down on the glass leaving traces and weird patterns that change all the time. 
Well thanks a lot for taking your time to help me out


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> I also did this Big5 Test and I got RLOAI. The description of that result was, to put it carefully, quite offensive. Basically I am a weak, anxious, lonely, incredibly self-conscious person that plans out everything in detail and has health problems all the time.  And that is NOT true.


How is it not true? 
You've literal told us you're an introvert and need to develop a backbone of sorts to stand up for your own beliefs more, and to stop bending over for everyone else.

You've also practically told us you're self-conscious.

I understand a couple of people here think you're an INFJ - RLOAI certainly supports that, I'm not sold, but this would support an IxFJ typing..

In an IxFJ, Fi acts as a "critical parent" function - comes out like this:



> IxFJ's Can angrily hit others with individual personal or universal ethical "truth":
> •I'M the authority on ethics! Your behavior shows a lack of personal integrity. [I feel I'm not living up to the personal (internal) side of ethics with my external focus, and I project it onto you].


(quote is from here)

Does this not sound very similar to what you just projected on to me?
"omg those big 5 traits are _offensive_ (although accurate according to your own posts), *not* true"



Birbsofafeather said:


> To directly quote the INFJ after sending her a copy of your post:
> 
> "Yup INFJ, easy.
> 
> ...


I thought we all pretend we're dying, when we do the lay underwater thing.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

@Soul Kitchen Thank you for the explanation! I think you probably missed one of my previous posts in this thread (right before I asked about a correlation to enneagram types). There I mentioned that actually I've almost always tested as an INFJ and it think is resembles me very well. Some aspects don't fit me properly and I've always been a bit unsure about intuition, so that's why I asked on here. But then again there are often things that I just know without having a proper explanation for it. And I try to use my senses and be aware of my surroundings, because 1) it's can be unhealthy to rarely appreciate the beauty of the moment and be absent-minded all the time and 2) it can be dangerous (I've been almost knocked off my bike far too many times, because I wasn't paying attention at all :O). 
I don't know, I guess I might prefer N over S, but I also have developped a well-functioning S to support my mental-health? Does that make sense?


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

@undsietanzt
This "style" of thought, if you will, is attributed by many INFJs to their Ni . 

It is taking in the world with Se and becoming mystified by the patterns of minute moments and atmospheres using Ni-Fe.

This movie is a favorite of many INFJs. I like to think of it as a movie about an INFP (Amelie herself) written by INFJs.






See these small pleasures? Very, very Ni. The fixation on certain, narrowed down sensing fixations.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

@Turi 
Read this: *withdrawn, loner, not wild and crazy*, does not like the spotlight, worrying, *crowd averse, afraid to draw attention to self*, easily hurt, fearful, *prone to low physical fitness*, fears mistakes, *prone to health problems*, hard to get to know, risk averse, *unable* to speak up for self, becomes overwhelmed by events, *not self confident, depressed, embarrassed by praise*, prefers organized to unpredictable, apprehensive about new encounters, not good at telling jokes, easily intimidated, *quiet around strangers, socially unskilled*, easily offended, avoids being a bother to anyone, anxious, plays it safe, not spontaneous, some attraction to things associated with sadness,* easily discouraged*, apologetic, private, requires lots of time alone to recharge, *self loathing, avoidant*, second guesses self,* low energy level*, values solitude, not physically affectionate with most people, *not competitive, lonely*, hesitant, thinks before acting, not aggressive, *very clean, feels unattractive*, stressed, proper, values rules and regulations, *plain, avoids small talk*, *resigned*
Does that sound like something you want to read about yourself and call true? Most of these atributes have a negative connotation. I marked everything that simply doesn't fit and many of the attributes I didn't mark only fit to a certain extent. For example, how does being an introvert make me a loner or lonely? This is not logical. And for the rest of your post. I don't think I can follow you. What was I projecting on you? How was I angrily hitting you by expressing that I am not agreeing with the description above? How can a personality be so full of negative dysfunctional aspects. If all of that would be true, I wouldn't be where I am in life right now.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

@Birbsofafeather Amélie! <3 It is indeed one of my fave movies! I also adore the soundtrack, so calming and beautiful!


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> @Turi
> Read this: *withdrawn, loner, not wild and crazy*, does not like the spotlight, worrying, *crowd averse, afraid to draw attention to self*, easily hurt, fearful, *prone to low physical fitness*, fears mistakes, *prone to health problems*, hard to get to know, risk averse, *unable* to speak up for self, becomes overwhelmed by events, *not self confident, depressed, embarrassed by praise*, prefers organized to unpredictable, apprehensive about new encounters, not good at telling jokes, easily intimidated, *quiet around strangers, socially unskilled*, easily offended, avoids being a bother to anyone, anxious, plays it safe, not spontaneous, some attraction to things associated with sadness,* easily discouraged*, apologetic, private, requires lots of time alone to recharge, *self loathing, avoidant*, second guesses self,* low energy level*, values solitude, not physically affectionate with most people, *not competitive, lonely*, hesitant, thinks before acting, not aggressive, *very clean, feels unattractive*, stressed, proper, values rules and regulations, *plain, avoids small talk*, *resigned*
> Does that sound like something you want to read about yourself and call true? Most of these atributes have a negative connotation. I marked everything that simply doesn't fit and many of the attributes I didn't mark only fit to a certain extent. For example, how does being an introvert make me a loner or lonely? This is not logical. And for the rest of your post. I don't think I can follow you. What was I projecting on you? How was I angrily hitting you by expressing that I am not agreeing with the description above? How can a personality be so full of negative dysfunctional aspects. If all of that would be true, I wouldn't be where I am in life right now.


It only gives you the downsides, it's intentional that it all has a negative connotation.

The whole purpose of typology is for self development, to recognise strengths and weaknesses and work on them to become better people.. also as a way to understand others.

It's not supposed to make you feel all airy fairy and great about yourself, the ones that do that are scams and are after your money.. it's not about what we "want" to hear.

Are the bolded phrases ones that actually ARE true, but you won't admit to it - or are they really not accurate?

If they're not accurate, RLOAI is incorrect because you disagree with about half of it.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Turi said:


> It's only gives you the downsides, it's intentional that it all had a negative connotation.
> 
> The whole purpose of typology is for self development, to recognise strengths and weaknesses and work on them to become better people.. also as a way to understand others.
> 
> ...


They would be true, if I wouldn't put effort into going out of my comfort zone almost every day. For example: Quiet around strangers and avoids small talk. I don't really like talking to strangers and I don't have a particular interest in small talks. But let's say I go to a party and don't know many people, I will still push myself a little and talk to strangers and that's usually small talk. And it gets easier and seems more natural every time I do it. So well, I might say, deep down at the core of my existence all of the attributes above apply to me, but I don't feel like all of them are an important factor on my behavior. Or at least not at this point in my life. So since it is about self development, you could say, I am working on my weaknesses.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> @Soul Kitchen Thank you for the explanation! I think you probably missed one of my previous posts in this thread (right before I asked about a correlation to enneagram types). There I mentioned that actually I've almost always tested as an INFJ and it think is resembles me very well. Some aspects don't fit me properly and I've always been a bit unsure about intuition, so that's why I asked on here. But then again there are often things that I just know without having a proper explanation for it. And I try to use my senses and be aware of my surroundings, because 1) it's can be unhealthy to rarely appreciate the beauty of the moment and be absent-minded all the time and 2) it can be dangerous (I've been almost knocked off my bike far too many times, because I wasn't paying attention at all :O).
> I don't know, I guess I might prefer N over S, but I also have developped a well-functioning S to support my mental-health? Does that make sense?


Sorry for not responding to that. My reasons for not putting too much emphasis on test results amount to the questionable nature of certain test items, and also to the Barnum effect. It also depends on which MBTI test you've taken. Did you take the official MBTI test?

Everyone uses their senses to pay attention to their surroundings. The difference between intuition and sensing comes down to what conclusions we reach after processing the information we take in from our surroundings. If you mean that the preference for intuition over sensing isn't completely binary, then sure. No one's really 100% intuitive or 100% sensing, and over time the level of preference might even shift.



Turi said:


> It only gives you the downsides, it's intentional that it all has a negative connotation.
> 
> The whole purpose of typology is for self development, to recognise strengths and weaknesses and work on them to become better people.. also as a way to understand others.
> 
> ...


Except compare the buzz words for RLOAI with RCOAI.



> withdrawn, loner, not wild and crazy, does not like the spotlight, worrying, crowd averse, afraid to draw attention to self, easily hurt, fearful, prone to low physical fitness, fears mistakes, prone to health problems, hard to get to know, risk averse, unable to speak up for self, becomes overwhelmed by events, not self confident, depressed, embarrassed by praise, prefers organized to unpredictable, apprehensive about new encounters, not good at telling jokes, easily intimidated, quiet around strangers, socially unskilled, easily offended, avoids being a bother to anyone, anxious, plays it safe, not spontaneous, some attraction to things associated with sadness, easily discouraged, apologetic, private, requires lots of time alone to recharge, self loathing, avoidant, second guesses self, low energy level, values solitude, not physically affectionate with most people, not competitive, lonely, hesitant, thinks before acting, not aggressive, very clean, feels unattractive, stressed, proper, values rules and regulations, plain, avoids small talk, resigned





> not relationship obsessed, withdrawn, risk averse, not wild and crazy, toned down, thinks before acting, fearless, peaceful, does not like to be the center of attention, quiet, relaxed, level emotions, averse to crowds, unadventurous, punctual, non-aggressive, interested in science, patient, not easily deterred, loner, good at saving money, private, values solitude, avoids unnecessary interaction, not spontaneous, avoids small talk, positive, not overly expressive of emotions, lower energy level, calm in crisis, always knows why they do things, theistic tendencies, non-antagonistic, predictable, analytical, optimistic, not prone to jealousy, not prone to addiction, not preoccupied with appearance, unswayed by emotions, deeply moved by the misfortunes of others, usually happy, influenced more by self than others, true to themself in all circumstances, modest, finishes most things they start, always prepared, competent, focused, more responsible than pleasure seeking, socially unskilled, realistic, planner, not physically affectionate with most people, self confident


That's not to say the RCOAI buzz words are completely positive, but the RLOAI words have a more pronounced negative slant to them. My explanation for this is obviously that neuroticism is a negative trait in general, and doesn't come with pros and cons as does the other Big Five dichotomies.

I do get your point, though. If personality tests and theories actually are a useful way of furthering one's self understanding, then it's not enough just to shower people with praise. A person shouldn't just come away from the theory having chosen a type that makes them feel good about themselves, or picking and choosing which aspects they like to think of themselves as possessing. They should be honest as possible about the person they describe.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

@Soul Kitchen - relevance?


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

@Turi It's mostly just observation of the way in which testing as being Limbic leads to more negative buzzwords. This point is probably obvious.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> @Turi It's mostly just observation of the way in which testing as being Limbic leads to more negative buzzwords. This point is probably obvious.


Of course it does, it's not as stable as Calm.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

Turi said:


> Of course it does, it's not as stable as Calm.


One thing I've noticed about the Big Five is it's more honest than the MBTI descriptions when it comes to describing people. A lot of the MBTI descriptions - particularly the intuitive ones - overidealise the types being described, glossing over any flaws that might come with the type in favour of the positives.

The Big Five could potentially have less of an appeal because it's not designed to facilitate egostroking, as shown in this thread.



Birbsofafeather said:


> See these small pleasures? Very, very Ni. The fixation on certain, narrowed down sensing fixations.


Wouldn't narrowed down sense fixations be Si?


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Soul Kitchen said:


> Did you take the official MBTI test?


 No, I didn't want to pay 50$. That's why I didn't trust the results entirely. Is a valid and reliable free test even available?

So, would you say it's either ISTJ, INFJ or ISFP?


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

John's Personality Test

Quiz — Type in Mind


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> No, I didn't want to pay 50$. That's why I didn't trust the results entirely. Is a valid and reliable free test even available?
> 
> So, would you say it's either ISTJ, INFJ or ISFP?


ISFJ or INFJ. You're most certainly an IxFx of some sort. Some have argued you are an Fi type - such as an ISFP - and perhaps they might not be wrong in typing you as an Fi type using cognitive functions. From an MBTI point of view however, you strike me as being a J based on how you outlined your life plans. "Lately I've thought a lot about this. My future, my past, my goals in life. Since I'm not a quitter Im going to work hard to get my degree, but I don't know yet, if I will work as a clinician." I think a P type would be less likely to stay the course they were on if it did not bring them fulfilment, and would be a lot more flighty in their life plans if that were the case. You also have a preference for Organized when using the Big Five model, which further adds to my case for your being a J type.

I don't buy the arguments for Ni. Even if I was typing you from a cognitive functions framework, I question whether it would really be Ni that's dominant, and a lot of the arguments put forward here for Ni actually sound more like Si than anything else. "Narrowed down sense fixations" is exactly what Si is in the first place. But Jung's conception of Si is different from the SJ temperament as we usually think of it. When most people think of SJ, they think of one who is dutiful, with an eye to detail and procedure, and who upholds society's values and traditions. Jung's conception of Si is... much more eccentric, to say the least. He essentially describes Si as being completely disengaged from reality as it appears to be, being more content with their colourful inner worlds filtered through subjective sense impressions. To Jung, an Si type sees men, machines, and nature as not all that different to gods and demons. In other words, a personal mythology used to make sense of the world.

But Jung's thoughts on the cognitive functions are of less concern to me than where you fit in the S vs N dichotomy. I think Myers & Briggs were right to shift the domain of abstraction from I to N, even if in doing so, they almost reduce sensing down to just "taking things in with the five senses". No wonder a lot of MBTI enthusiasts see themselves as being an N whenever they do anything other than point at an object and say "that's an object". Another reason I prefer MBTI over Jung is that it's a lot more flexible with preferences for dichotomies. You don't have to have a strong preference either way for S or N. When push comes to shove, I'd type you as an INFJ because of your preference for Inquisitiveness using the Big Five model, and because you showed a fair amount of abstraction in your responses throughout this thread. However, I think your preference for F is stronger than your preference for N or S.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Turi said:


> John's Personality Test[/url]
> 
> Quiz â€” Type in Mind[/url]


John's Personality Test: 83% INFJ, 6% INFP, 5% ENFJ, 2% INTJ, 1% ENFP
Type in mind: NiFeTiSe though I can also realte to a lot of what is written about FiSeNiTe 
I guess I need to educate myself more about the functions and their differences to find out what fits me best. But for today I've got work through a few statistics chapters for the research project I'm involved in. Have a nice day everyone


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> John's Personality Test: 83% INFJ, 6% INFP, 5% ENFJ, 2% INTJ, 1% ENFP
> Type in mind: NiFeTiSe though I can also realte to a lot of what is written about FiSeNiTe
> I guess I need to educate myself more about the functions and their differences to find out what fits me best. But for today I've got work through a few statistics chapters for the research project I'm involved in. Have a nice day everyone


To reproduce similar results to what you got, I had to answer every question like a complete INFJ stereotype, literally every question I, N, F and J responses.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

@Turi So basically you are implying that I want to be approved as an INFJ on here and therefore answered all the questions in that very stereotypical INFJ-y way? I don't even know all the stereotypes and I wouldn't have asked anyone's opinion on here in the first place, if I wouldn't doubt the test results. I still do resonate with the INFJ type description a lot. But what made me ask for help, was the fact that I have trouble to understand the concept of intuition and I am not sure, if it is a part of me. Also I agree with @Soul Kitchen that my F seems to be my preferred function (at least at the moment) though I am not sure., if this is really natural to me or something I force myself to do in order to succeed at the field I am currently in.
Anyway, maybe it would be helpful for me to take a step back, learn more about the theory and reevaluate my considerations.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> @Turi So basically you are implying that I want to be approved as an INFJ on here and therefore answered all the questions in that very stereotypical INFJ-y way? I don't even know all the stereotypes and I wouldn't have asked anyone's opinion on here in the first place, if I wouldn't doubt the test results. I still do resonate with the INFJ type description a lot. But what made me ask for help, was the fact that I have trouble to understand the concept of intuition and I am not sure, if it is a part of me.


It's a possibility.


Which phrase of each cluster do you resonate with most:


I prefer classy, formal occasions and enjoy any excuse to dress up. 
I prefer casual, low-key events to formal ones. 



Too many parents are overly strict or harsh in disciplining their children. This prevents the unique needs and desires of their child from being fully expressed.

Too many parents are overly lenient and permissive with their children. This can lead to behavior problems and a failure to understand social norms and boundaries.


I typically don’t struggle with a restless or racing mind.

My mind is often teeming with new ideas or possibilities. 


I feel very comfortable directly addressing interpersonal and relational conflicts.

My natural style is to avoid conflict rather than deal with it directly.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> Anyway, maybe it would be helpful for me to take a step back, learn more about the theory and reevaluate my considerations.


There's no rush to decide on your type. 

If you're going to use cognitive functions to determine your type, that's fine. Although if you follow that route, know that Harold Grant's function model - the one considered the standard within the typology community - is different from the way Jung conceived of functions.

Jung believed that the auxiliary function, when adequately differentiated and conscious in its role within the psyche, shared the same orientation as the dominant function. So if you're an Fi type, your auxiliary function would be Si or Ni. Your extraverted functions would play a largely subconscious role in you. However, Jung also stated that not every type had a clearly differentiated auxiliary function, believing that many of them were instead defined chiefly by their dominant function. So you could be an Fi, and have Se, Ne, and Te working subconsciously, with Te being the most repressed due to its opposition to Fi.

The Harold Grant model is the classic Fi-Se-Ni-Te model which is attached (rather crudely, in my opinion) to the MBTI dichotomies in an attempt to reconcile the cognitive functions and the dichotomies.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Jung did not consider the rational functions and irrational functions to merely be judging and perceiving functions, respectively. For instance, Ne is described as possessing a distinctive morality that is shaped by intuition more so than the rational functions; a morality where choices are determined based on the greatest yield of possibilities. Ni is described as driving an individual to turn their life into a vision quest when perception becomes a moral problem for them.

Even if there was a firm correlation between rational and irrational and the J/P dichotomy, note how bizarre it is for an ENFP and an INFP to both be P types despite the INFP supposedly having a dominant Ji function. Thus I can see how you could be an Fi type according to Jung while also being an MBTI INFJ.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

I'd pick these:
-I prefer casual, low-key events to formal ones.

-Too many parents are overly strict or harsh in disciplining their children. This prevents the unique needs and desires of their child from being fully expressed.
I'd go with the first one, because I feel this is what I have experienced in my family. But I think that you can't generalize one of the statements. Every child has to learn to accept boundaries in order to not hurt other people or the environment. Plus some basic rules such as "don't pick your nose in public" can't hurt as well  My dad is a teacher and he's told stories, you wouldn't believe. Apparently many children these days misbehave a lot, are impolite and disrespectful. But this also must be some sort of a cultural thing. I doubt that traditionally raised Asian children would act the way some American or German or French or Canadian (...) children would. 

-My mind is often teeming with new ideas or possibilities.
Especially when I have to focus on something I find rather boring such as studying anatomy. 

-My natural style is to avoid conflict rather than deal with it directly.
If it is really necessary, I don't shy away from addressing a problem, but beforehand I think of different ways to communicate it.
@Soul Kitchen Yes, you are absolutely right. There is no point in forcing a type upon someone quickly.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> I'd pick these:
> -I prefer casual, low-key events to formal ones.
> 
> -Too many parents are overly strict or harsh in disciplining their children. This prevents the unique needs and desires of their child from being fully expressed.
> ...


Each of those clusters were from the INFJ-INFP clarifier from personalityjunkie.

For what it's worth, you selected the INFP option every time.

I'll explain in the morning.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

Turi said:


> Each of those clusters were from the INFJ-INFP clarifier from personalityjunkie.
> 
> For what it's worth, you selected the INFP option every time.
> 
> I'll explain in the morning.


I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation, @Turi.

So now it's more of a choice between INFJ and INFP? That's interesting. I'm in a different place from where I started out, where it was a choice between ISFJ and INFJ.

@undsietanzt My responses to your choices are in the quote bellow, highlighed in bold font.



undsietanzt said:


> I'd pick these:
> -I prefer casual, low-key events to formal ones.
> 
> *I think an FP would find too much tradition and ceremony in their lives to be restrictive. An FJ would still find casual events, such as afternoons with friends and family, to be more enjoyable than ceremonies, but they would at least honour the importance of formal occasions as a cultural glue. So do you actually find too much tradition and ceremony to be restrictive, or do you have a deep feeling for the importance of these occasions, but prefer the quiet moments in your life all the same?*
> ...


I don't see anything conclusively in favour of INFP here so far, but if these answers do indeed indicate INFP, then that would be most curious. How would we go about reconciling INFP answers when you score as a J and Organized on the tests you've taken?


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Okay, it's not so much INFP v INFJ, I feel we've just done that and INFP came out on top.

I'll run through the reasoning - it's all from AJ Drenth from personalityjunkie, not me, those phrases were run by numerous confirmed INFPs and INFJs and OP chose INFP option every time.


First one - classy formal occasions V casual, low-key ones - this is testing for an outer J function, how we perceive then present to the world - INxJ types have a taste for sophistication - Ni+Je. In contrast, INFP types will be more inclined to see those more classy events as unnecessary, silly and pretentious.


Too many parents are overly strict/harsh v too many parents are overly lenient - INFP types prefer not to be impose their will on their children and like to encourage them to be their authentic selves and explore who they are.
In contrast, INFJs feel boundaries etc are important for the children and the sanity of the parents - they prefer not to let the children "run the show".


I don't struggle with a restless or racing mind v my mind is often teeming with new ideas an possibilities - INFP types use Ne, therefore their minds are more active, always making associations and generating ideas/possibilities.
In contrast, the INFJ mind is typically more calm and synchronised, like a state of relaxed awareness - this is supported by Dario Nardis work re: "blue zen brain" (inxj) v "Christmas tree lights" (NP types).


Feeling comfortable re: conflicts V avoiding conflicts - Fe types feel more comfortable handling conflicts directly, and INFJ types might even feel invigorated handling interpersonal conflicts as it presents an opportunity for people to better understand one another.
Fi types on the other hand, find conflicts more unsettling as they don't have Fe, they don't feel equipped to deal with the situation and their first _preference_ is to withdraw or avoid the situation rather than address it directly.



Again these aren't my phrases and aren't my clarifications, they're from AJ Drenth at personalityjunkie and I would recommend people genuinely interested in typology and torn between those two types in particular to think about getting that clarifier.



So yeah, OP went INFP every time here.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

@Turi @Soul Kitchen
Well, this is interesting. I didn't expect that and I never really did much research about the INFP. 
As for the first cluster: I do in fact enjoy classy formal occasions and I do enjoy to dress up. I love putting together outfits, doing my hair, puting on some makeup, simply making myself look put together and "stylish" (according to my taste ). Actually I regularly go to the theatre and I like more formal family gatherings. I do net see them as unnecessary or a burden, but I also wouldn't say I generally prefer them over more casual get-togethers. I like both and I need both in my life. 
And as for the last one: Yes, my heart says "don't talk about it", but my head says "if it bothers you, speak up!" I have learned that I feel a lot better and simply "free", if I talk about issues. It might cause a bit of distress, but I often write down a list of the things I want to get off my chest and then just go ahead and do it. I always try to be very honest and explain why I feel/think a certain way. I usually suppose that in that way people wouldn't get as hurt/offended, but I also came to realize that my reasoning can't always be understood and that this shouldn't always be of my concern. If there is no prep time, because a problem needs to be directly addressed, most of the time I will still do it. Because, like I already mentioned, it lifts a weight off my shoulders. As a child/teen I actually had a passion for discussing interpersonal issues with a handful of people all the time. I have no idea where that came from and why it stopped. 
Well, I am kind of bewildered with the INFP thrown into the discussion. But I just did the test on personalityjunkie and tested INFP  I am afraid I might be completely biased at this point. :frustrating:


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

When I first discovered MBTI back in 2015 I already had a type me thread in this forum and I just found it! (I couldn't use this account again, because I had forgotten both password and name/email...) Oh my it was so weird to read through my posts and answers to the two questionnaires I filled out back then. Of course, I changed since then, but I still think that my answers could be of help to determine my personality type. So here it is: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...-would-appreciate-some-help.html#post23425018 
Btw, right now I feel like INFP might be a good fit. Like I mentioned, I didn't expect it to pop up on here, but from what I have read so far, I feel like I can relate a lot.


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

@undsietanzt I still believe INFJ, quite honestly. You have far too much lower Se to be an INFP. 0 Si was in there. Fe>Fi as well.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Birbsofafeather said:


> @undsietanzt I still believe INFJ, quite honestly. You have far too much lower Se to be an INFP. 0 Si was in there. Fe>Fi as well.


How can this be? How much lower do you want Se to be? It's almost as far down as it goes in an INFP.
Not to mention, I was merely separating INFP from INFJ - I wasn't suggesting OP was either of these types.

Typing via tertiary function is a dangerous game because I mean, there's like no official consensus on which way the tertiary function actually goes.

@undsietanzt - I had a read of the old type me thread you wrote - is there any reason in particular you linked to someone trying to type you as an INFJ?
I read the OP, and the reasoning people are using to support INFJ is ridiculous. I'm hopeful these people have since expanded their knowledge of the cognitive functions.

Scenario 1 - all your focus is on yourself. Fi.

Scenario 2 - sounds Fe, right? "What kind of a person would I be having already completed everything by myself and not helping others?" _wrong_. Fi.

Scenario 3 - preference for introversion, I understand this one is supposed to test your thinking preferences, getting to the heart of something sounds like Ti, but it's not here, it's Fi (maybe Ni too), the way you're wrote it is telling. It's all about how you feel about this or that and doing things your own way, as well as skepticism about how superficial a group discussion could be. Seeking authenticity. Stereotype Fi.


Scenario 4 - pretty much nothing, possible hint at extraversion. You do mention you'd be after specific details - Se, at a total stretch though, in this context, possibly Ni as well.

Scenario 5 - well now we get a clearer picture of your perceiving functions - Se-Ni. You wake up in the morning whenever the F you want (Fi), make yourself an (insert adjective that means good/bad to you) breakfast (Fi), then you go for a walk in the forest, enjoy nature and take pictures of it all (Se extraordinaire).
After this you redecorate your room and throw some music on (Te and Se), then watch some new (Se) episodes of your favourite (Fi) show).
I'll stop here, I could dissect the whole thing more but there's no need - you even shifted into physical sources of energy before you realised it yourself - walking in forest, redecorating your room.. etc

Feeling emotions transported by music (Fi).. being out in nature (Se).. being out in the city in the midst of people (Se)..

I don't need to do 6 or 7 because I feel close enough to true type at this point.


You're an ISFP, and there's an abundance of material to support that conclusion now.
But! _You know yourself best!_ Totally on you to do your research and find the one that fits you.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Turi said:


> I had a read of the old type me thread you wrote - is there any reason in particular you linked to someone trying to type you as an INFJ?


Please, can you stop suggesting I am looking for you to approve of me being an INFJ, so I can feel very very special? I linked this thread, because I finally found it and I thought I would just provide anyone who would still be willing to help me with further information. Anyway, thank you very much for having a look at it and helping me getting closer to my type. I really appreciate your help!


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> Please, can you stop suggesting I am looking for you to approve of me being an INFJ, so I can feel very very special? I linked this thread, because I finally found it and I thought I would just provide anyone who would still be willing to help me with further information. Anyway, thank you very much for having a look at it and helping me getting closer to my type. I really appreciate your help!


It's weird that it wasn't a link to the OP in the thread, haha.

If you want to see how Ni can manifest in an ISFP, I would recommend checking out the George Michael documentary _Freedom_.
He's often typed as an E or an N, always FP though - the way he's portrayed in that documentary is definitively ISFP though, and it will give you an look at just how strong Ni can be, in someone who isn't an Ni dominant.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Turi said:


> It's weird that it wasn't a link to the OP in the thread, haha.
> 
> If you want to see how Ni can manifest in an ISFP, I would recommend checking out the George Michael documentary _Freedom_.
> He's often typed as an E or an N, always FP though - the way he's portrayed in that documentary is definitively ISFP though, and it will give you an look at just how strong Ni can be, in someone who isn't an Ni dominant.


Ah now I get what you mean  it took me until about now to figure out the meaning of OP. I don't know why that happened though. Probably because I was reading through my rambling (meanwhile cringing) and then I just copied the URL. 
Thanks, I'll have a look at that! 
And about Fi. I've been trying to understand the difference between Fi and Fe and basically it sounds like Fi-users are kind of selfish and mainly pay attention to themselves and if they are for an example helping someone else in some way, mainly because it makes THEM feel good. You know, being content, because you did something good and not necessarily because the person has been helped out. Would you say this is true?
Also concerning Se/Si. I remember vaguely that I read that Si users can get quite nostalgic and relive past moments pretty often, if they are triggered by a sensory stimulus such as a smell, a sound... And that they would add their personal meaning to things they notice by matching them to past perceptions. Is this the right understanding of Fi?


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## Birbsofafeather (May 18, 2017)

Just read through the other thread. There is a lot more Se in that thread and a good deal of Fi. I must agree with @Turi. I am beginning to lean towards ISFP.

And ouch, I certainly hope that isn't what you've been told about Fi.



> Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor. This means that the feeling-judgment differs quite as essentially from extraverted feeling as does the introversion of thinking from extraversion. It is unquestionably difficult to give an intellectual presentation of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate [p. 490] description of it, although the peculiar character of this kind of feeling simply stands out as soon as one becomes aware of it at all. Since it is primarily controlled by subjective preconditions, and is only secondarily concerned with the object, this feeling appears much less upon the surface and is, as a rule, misunderstood. It is a feeling which apparently depreciates the object; hence it usually becomes noticeable in its negative manifestations. The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus. The depths of this feeling can only be divined -- they can never be clearly comprehended. It makes men silent and difficult of access; with the sensitiveness of the mimosa, it shrinks from the brutality of the object, in order to expand into the depths of the subject. It puts forward negative feeling-judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference, as a measure of self-defence.
> 
> Primordial images are, of course, just as much idea as feeling. Thus, basic ideas such as God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant as ideas. Everything, therefore, that has been said of the introverted thinking refers equally to introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought. But the fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic capacity before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately [p. 491] presented or communicated to the outer world. Whereas subjective thinking, on account of its unrelatedness, finds great difficulty in arousing an adequate understanding, the same, though in perhaps even higher degree, holds good for subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others it has to find an external form which is not only fitted to absorb the subjective feeling in a satisfying expression, but which must also convey it to one's fellowman in such a way that a parallel process takes place in him. Thanks to the relatively great internal (as well as external) similarity of the human being, this effect can actually be achieved, although a form acceptable to feeling is extremely difficult to find, so long as it is still mainly orientated by the fathomless store of primordial images. But, when it becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration just as the subjectified consciousness of the introverted thinker, striving after an abstraction of abstractions, only attains a supreme intensity of a thought-process in itself quite empty, so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage, which prepares the way over into the extraverted functions repressed by feeling, just as introverted thinking is pitted against a primitive feeling, to which objects attach themselves with magical force, so introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts passes all bounds. Continually emancipating itself from the relation to the object, this feeling creates a freedom, both of action and of conscience, that is only answerable to the subject, and that may even renounce all traditional values. But so much the more [p. 492] does unconscious thinking fall a victim to the power of objective facts.


There's Jung's description of Fi, although it may be difficult reading considering that the text is quite old and English isn't your first language, if I recall.

But no, Fi isn't intrinsically selfish at all, nor is Fe intrinsically helpful. Fi is simply being aware of and oriented on one's internal understanding and processing of the outside world. Fe is simply being aware of and oriented on the external state of emotions, ie the emotions of others, their perceptions, societal perceptions etc.

The way the function acts depends on the type (therefore its surrounding functions) the individual and even mental health.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

undsietanzt said:


> Ah now I get what you mean  it took me until about now to figure out the meaning of OP. I don't know why that happened though. Probably because I was reading through my rambling (meanwhile cringing) and then I just copied the URL.
> Thanks, I'll have a look at that!
> And about Fi. I've been trying to understand the difference between Fi and Fe and basically it sounds like Fi-users are kind of selfish and mainly pay attention to themselves and if they are for an example helping someone else in some way, mainly because it makes THEM feel good. You know, being content, because you did something good and not necessarily because the person has been helped out. Would you say this is true?
> Also concerning Se/Si. I remember vaguely that I read that Si users can get quite nostalgic and relive past moments pretty often, if they are triggered by a sensory stimulus such as a smell, a sound... And that they would add their personal meaning to things they notice by matching them to past perceptions. Is this the right understanding of Fi?


With Fi and Fe, just look at is as if it's deciding good/bad. 
If you decide what's good/bad all by yourself, maybe at the expense of others, Fi.
If you decide what's good/bad according to groups you're in, socially acceptable forms of behaviour etc, probably Fe.

Neither is inherently more selfish than the other, it's literally just placing value/worth on *everything*.
We all will swing both ways, we'll all decide how we personally feel (good/bad) about something, and we'll all have things where our values have been shaped by external influences - i.e, "breaking the law" etc.

It's just a preference thing.

Brief example - say your teacher gives you some homework to do- Fi might not see the value in completing the homework - it's meaningless to them, so they won't do it. Subjective. The Fi user comes to this conclusion all on their own. They're deciding good/bad.

Fe might want to please the teacher - teacher gave it to us, so we have to do it. The homework is important to the teacher, the teacher has placed value in the Fe user completing this homework. Fe user then might do the homework. It's objective. The Fe user is placing value into something, according to an external source (the teacher).

Now obviously that might go either way - the Fi user might simply see doing the homework as good, their own decision, completely subjective, so they'll do it.
The Fe user might have friends etc, or a family member, who thinks homework is total BS, so they won't do it. Who knows.


My understanding of Fe and Fi is nowhere near complete, but at the heart of it, I believe it is simply placing value - deciding good/bad - on _everything _(emphasis on _*everything*_).. according to either mostly yourself (Fi) or mostly others (Fe).
Neither is better or worse than the other and we all come to decisions, and place value on things all day every day using both Fe and Fi judgements.
It's just a preference thing. Which way is more natural or normal. Which way feels more "you".



I think your understanding of Si is very narrow and limited, but you acknowledge this, it's along the right lines though.

Si in the fashion you've described is triggered by how it feels about something. This use of the word "feels" has nothing to do with Fi or Fe.
Higher Si users like to have a common ground, a connection, between what they're currently doing, and what they know works - this lends itself therefore to comparing things from the past - I don't believe it's a very conscious or active process, but I'm not an Si dom so I wouldn't know.

I think some part of their brain, below consciousness, is doing the comparing and contrasting (more than it does in people who don't prefer higher Si), and when something matches it's a bit like the game "Snap" - there mind then conjures up whatever that similar experience was. 
So they get the feelz based on their past experiences but it doesn't work the way the stereotypes make out - I don't think they live in the past, at all, and probably only actively search for similar situations in their mind when confronted with a problem they need to solve.
I don't think they walk around 24/7 actively comparing the current moment to the past.

An example might be walking up the street and catching a whiff of a lavender.. someone who prefers higher Si might immediately have an image in their head of their grandmas house or something, then they'll link it to lavender.
So the subjective impression comes first. 
Someone who prefers Se on the other hand might immediately recognise it as lavender, and then connect it to something relevant.

To expand ever so slightly - the Si-Ne axis would then link lavender to various other things, lavender, fields, farming, flowers, trees, oxygen, etc etc. Ne might go nuts in the subconscious. You'll notice Si doms are pretty quirky, unrestrained Ne is the cause.

The Se-Ni axis would be more likely to think what's the reason and start jumping to conclusions - smelling the lavender, recognising it's lavender, then creating an image in their head of who might have the lavender - probably a little old lady cooking up some spaghetti bolognaise - can't smell the bolognaise though, so maybe it's just a little old lady, what other plants has she got in her backyard? Etc etc. It fills in the gaps. Total conspiracy theorist, really.



We all use Se, Si, Ne and Ni, every day. It's just a preference thing. Which ones are more natural to you, more of a "default" way of absorbing information.


Now, to get a little more into how I imagine all that might come together in an ISFP.

They might receive the scent and think it smells bad (Fi value judgment) and probably look around for a second to scout where the godawful smell is coming from (Se) - they might then shift into those Ni style thoughts concerning the meaning behind the scent - why is it here? Who's growing the lavender etc?
Since they lead with Fi, they'll likely be then making good/bad value judgments based on those Ni perceptions - they might think of a little old lady making spaghetti - don't like spaghetti (Fi), etc etc. So it goes.

Shift that Fi to Fe and make the person an INFJ, and now they might think of a little old lady making spaghetti and rather than be drawn immediately to how they personally feel about that image, their thoughts are more along the lines of what other people might think - i.e homely, creating happiness for others, etc etc. Maybe.



Totally all in theory.


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## Soul Kitchen (May 15, 2016)

undsietanzt said:


> @Turi @Soul Kitchen
> Well, this is interesting. I didn't expect that and I never really did much research about the INFP.
> As for the first cluster: I do in fact enjoy classy formal occasions and I do enjoy to dress up. I love putting together outfits, doing my hair, puting on some makeup, simply making myself look put together and "stylish" (according to my taste ). Actually I regularly go to the theatre and I like more formal family gatherings. I do net see them as unnecessary or a burden, but I also wouldn't say I generally prefer them over more casual get-togethers. I like both and I need both in my life.
> And as for the last one: Yes, my heart says "don't talk about it", but my head says "if it bothers you, speak up!" I have learned that I feel a lot better and simply "free", if I talk about issues. It might cause a bit of distress, but I often write down a list of the things I want to get off my chest and then just go ahead and do it. I always try to be very honest and explain why I feel/think a certain way. I usually suppose that in that way people wouldn't get as hurt/offended, but I also came to realize that my reasoning can't always be understood and that this shouldn't always be of my concern. If there is no prep time, because a problem needs to be directly addressed, most of the time I will still do it. Because, like I already mentioned, it lifts a weight off my shoulders. As a child/teen I actually had a passion for discussing interpersonal issues with a handful of people all the time. I have no idea where that came from and why it stopped.
> Well, I am kind of bewildered with the INFP thrown into the discussion. But I just did the test on personalityjunkie and tested INFP  I am afraid I might be completely biased at this point. :frustrating:


Yeah, having thought more about your answers to those questions, any arguments I could make for FJ are much weaker than arguments for FP. That's particularly the case with the question regarding parenthood. An FP type would be more likely to favour self-expression in children instead of wanting children to conform to an external standard, and freedom for a child's own self-development was a defining part of your thoughts on that matter.



Turi said:


> How can this be? How much lower do you want Se to be? It's almost as far down as it goes in an INFP.
> Not to mention, I was merely separating INFP from INFJ - I wasn't suggesting OP was either of these types.
> 
> Typing via tertiary function is a dangerous game because I mean, there's like no official consensus on which way the tertiary function actually goes.
> ...


 @Turi It's interesting you made that observation about the tertiary function, because this is another reason I put less stock in cognitive functions as a means of typing people; particularly the Harold Grant model, which erroneously implies that all four functions - both introverted and extraverted - are conscious to varying degrees. I think any valid things about the dominant and auxiliary functions are things which can be attributed to dichotomy combinations, such as FP for Fi and SP for Se, which are based on observable similarities and differences between people. Any attempts to build a case for one's type based on tertiary and inferior functions will inevitably be very shaky. As far as I'm concerned, it would be absurd to assert that an ISFP has cognitively more in common with an ENTJ than an ISFJ.

@undsietanzt I agree with Turi. You're definitely an FP rather than an FJ because of your focus regarding the worth of things. It's all about whether something feels authentic or valuating, and it isn't framed within the context of a wider group or moral standard applied to all. In the scenario you described about the hypothetical relationship, your feelings towards how things would affect your partner are turned inwards through rumination. You were thinking about how his feelings would relate to your own feelings.

I also agree that you're more of an ISFP than an INFP. Honestly, I had a fairly hard time buying arguments for your being an N in the first place, and thought you could just as easily have been an S. But when you got around to the fifth scenario, it was just a big stream of sensory aesthetic. I except an N type either to abstract an idea from the things they do, or to search for that idea, and the search for that idea would define much of how they live from one day to the next. S types can engage abstract ideas if they want to, but it's not so much second nature to them.



undsietanzt said:


> Ah now I get what you mean  it took me until about now to figure out the meaning of OP. I don't know why that happened though. Probably because I was reading through my rambling (meanwhile cringing) and then I just copied the URL.
> Thanks, I'll have a look at that!
> And about Fi. I've been trying to understand the difference between Fi and Fe and basically it sounds like Fi-users are kind of selfish and mainly pay attention to themselves and if they are for an example helping someone else in some way, mainly because it makes THEM feel good. You know, being content, because you did something good and not necessarily because the person has been helped out. Would you say this is true?
> Also concerning Se/Si. I remember vaguely that I read that Si users can get quite nostalgic and relive past moments pretty often, if they are triggered by a sensory stimulus such as a smell, a sound... And that they would add their personal meaning to things they notice by matching them to past perceptions. Is this the right understanding of Fi?


It depends on how Fi and Fe are framed, though. I could just as easily turn around and say that Fe is fake and insincere because its values come about through observation rather than intense rumination. Neither are better or worse than the other, although you probably get the point by now. Asides from that, Jung described all of his eight types as being unhealthy caricatures of what he believed those people would be like, so if he made Fi sound cold, moody, perfectionistic, and alienating, it's understandable that you might feel put off by it.

Anyone can feel nostalgia and anyone can relive past memories. Si does not just do those things (although Si is indeed fed stimulus by this sensory input), but Si also builds a personal mythology about the nature of the world based on its impressions. To me, a good example of a Jungian Si type is J R. R. Tolkien, and Lord of the Rings is a case of study of how Jung thought an Si type's subjective sense impressions would shape the art that type produced.

Tolkien had started out having devised fictional languages (namely the Elven languages Quenya and Sindarin), and sought to build a world around those languages in order to give those languages a history. Tolkien had an interest in the conlang Esperanto, admiring its construction and thinking it suitable for a role as an international language, but ultimately believed Esperanto to be lifeless because it was a language with no history or shared culture that influenced its development. He needed to devise a platform for his fictional languages so that the fantasy world he devised and the languages spoken in that world were inseparable. On that note, Tolkien also placed a lot of emphasis on the aesthetic of a language. When a fan sent him a silver goblet engraved with the Black Speech, Tolkien used the goblet as an ashtray because he could not bring himself to drink from that goblet.

One thing lead to another, and soon Tolkien had a rich history spanning millennia, a detailed geography of Middle Earth, and very detailed cultures for each of the races inhabiting that world. He also placed a lot of emphasis on the ways in which the races were fundamentally different to each other on the basis of their race, curiously enough. The story of Lord of the Rings itself was more of an afterthought, as Tolkien moulded the story around his world much more than he did mould his world around the story. His world was one that felt like it had been always been longer than almost anyone in that world could remember.

The race that best embodied Si was the Rohirrim, who were an attempt on Tolkien's part to capture an idealised Anglo-Saxon culture that never was. They were a brave, honourable race of men who had names derived from Old English and who rode horses, and where the Anglo-Saxons in our world had been conquered by the Normans and lost much of their old culture, the Rohirrim held onto their culture in Tolkien's world. Tolkien loved the Old English language and Anglo-Saxon culture more than he did the English culture of his time, and it showed.

Even the narrative of Lord of the Rings itself was heavily influenced by Tolkien's subjective impressions. The conflict between good and evil is a core theme of the series, symbolised by the fair races who protected what was right and pure, and the foul races who sought to defile it and were minions of evil. It was a battle between the men, the elves, the dwarves, and the hobbits vs. the orcs, the goblins, the trolls, and the balrogs. Many narrative motifs drew subconsciously from Tolkien's own religious beliefs. Take the story about Smeagol and his cousin Deagol, for instance. Doesn't that seem uncannily similar to the story about Cain and Abel? Yet if asked about it, Tolkien would likely have dismissed such influences because he believed the world to exist in its own place completely separate from our own world.

And finally, let's not forget how Tolkien's own past experiences shaped the story. Shelob, the giant spider who stung Frodo, was based on a childhood memory of a large spider who had bitten him. When Tolkien wrote about war, he was very much inspired by his experiences of fighting on the front lines in WWI, which lent to his battle scenes a visceral, hellish feel to them.

If you want to read Psychological Types (read Chapter X for the cognitive functions), I recommend reading it in the original German. It might make for an easier read that way, and you also have the advantage of being able to read Jung's unfiltered ideas.


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## undsietanzt (Oct 24, 2017)

Thank you @Turi, @Soul Kitchen and @Birbsofafeather for taking your time and providing me with so much information! I think my understanding of the functions is growing and I am fairly certain now that the ISFP is what I am. I guess one could always look around and see little bits of oneself in almost every other type and if you aren't very educated on this topic, it can be quite confusing. So, since I've found this forum to be quite interesting and entertaining, I'm sure I will stay active on here from time to time and look forward to read your thoughts. It's a shame that all these theories aren't very popular here in Germany. Two years ago I asked my friends and family members to take one of the (free) tests online and half of them didn't even do it. But I guess, if you understand what it's about in depths, you can type people through observation and communication. My mum, for instance, is probably an ESTJ.


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