# I've been typing ISTJ for years but... Thanks for any input!



## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

So. I realise that types are pretty black and white stereotypes but I still wanted to bring up some issues in this type thread. 



As far as I understand, the ISTJ stereotype is really passive, polite, reliable, meticulous, detail oriented and cautious, indecisive with difficulty to see the unfamiliar or novel. And the ESTJ stereotype is active, even argumentative, with a high interest in taking charge and decisiveness, competitiveness, and getting things done actively, with more ability to deal with what comes up, seeing more of a big picture, correct me though if I'm wrong on this, specifically I'm not sure how much ESTJ can deal with what comes up compared to ISTJ.



I've realised I like to be active and have enough energy and the idea of being too passive bothers me. I do want to take rest from being highly active but the idea of being mostly passive is a nightmare to me. At least the idea of it yeah. In practice, I can take it for a while but then I do want to get set for a goal.

Then how active I am for that goal, it depends on the goal, whether it just requires followthrough needing lower energy, or whether it requires taking a lot of action, needing more effort. Actually, I like to put in the effort a lot, I cannot allow myself to have a moment of being unable to put it in if I decide it's required. That would upset me for sure.

What truly bothers me more about the idea of passivity beyond the above is lack of competitiveness or lack of ability to deal with what comes up if I must deal with it. I can do this alright, even if it can get irritating that something gets in the way. What would be more irritating and an actual nightmare though if I did not have the ability of responding pretty fast. I do have that ability and I like it.

Then about argumentativeness, again it would rather bother me if I never voiced my opinions and I have no problem with getting into an argument. I've had hour long and quite loud arguments with ExxJs/ExTJs. Not very often but sometimes yeah no problem. I even enjoy this okay. Though it's usually like, they are loud and then I have to match myself to that to still be heard. And I am okay with putting in the effort if needed. If I had a problem with any of this, I'd feel too passive.

Competitiveness is also big for me, I like goals when it's about competition especially. I find direct competitiveness and confrontation quite fun too. I'm ok with being all tough and forceful for all that. I like that too.

As for taking charge... this is the one area where I am willing to say I do not always take the active approach... I ensure I have influence but I am fine with staying back and watching as long as I think that's best. This is where I never saw myself as a Te-dom, but... I'd like to hear from others on how ESTJ is with getting more passive sometimes in this area or whether what I've said here excludes ESTJ.

As for big picture. I often do not need to prepare in a detail-oriented way, I just go take care of things and get them done. It's also what helps with responsiveness when something comes up that I need to deal with where I often even like doing so. In other cases however, when there are many options or complexity, I will want to get into the details, or I will feel too "blind" going without them, I can do it though if forced to. I do have patience for details forever if I see it as necessary for a goal. If not, then zero patience.



More on argumentativeness or being opinionated. This is something where I really visibly differ from many ISTJs, apparently. I will not constantly voice opinions, frankly I don't have a need for that, but whenever I do enjoy the interaction, I will very easily get into this, and come off opinionated easily and argumentative too. I am not sure where my level of bluntness and directness falls in terms of type. I also show anger way more readily than many ISTJs, both verbally and nonverbally.

I do not like thinking deeply for too long or preparing for many everyday things much. I'm almost never fully in my head. My decisiveness also makes me visibly differ from quite some of the ISTJs I've seen.

As for whether socialising/interaction with people drains me or recharges me. It is hard to say, I enjoy some interacting, I feel temporarily higher energy and that can be fun for some reason, but then it can get too much after that. After parties/larger meetings with more people, if I enjoyed the interactions, then afterwards I feel a bit "high" but also a bit tired. If I did not enjoy the interactions that much - this also easily happens - then I'm just glad to get away and go do my own thing. I get very tense and drained as hell if I have to stay around otherwise. The tension seems to come from constantly holding back in a bad way, not being able to do much or enjoy much. Once I finally get away, I do not feel tired or this extra tense anymore though, I instantly feel refreshed instead lol.

As for emotional expression, many ISTJs have very low expression of them, which is not true of me, I express some, but that may be me being female. Afaik ESTJ is about average with emotional expression though, and I'm not sure I hit average for a female. With anger though, I pretty easily express that like I said. It's never truly expressed in full, but still pretty visible. I would dislike it if I was to get fully emotional about its expression, that's a big no-no, not sure about ESTJ with that. Other than that, I heard ESTJ can go on for very long expressing anger or a tantrum, etc., like for an hour, I can't go on for long at all. An hour, nope not a chance. Think of a few seconds for most of it lol.



So if we take the adjectives above in terms of what my *conscious self-image* has:

ISTJ - p̶a̶s̶s̶i̶v̶e̶, polite, reliable, *meticulous, detail oriented *and c̶a̶u̶t̶i̶o̶u̶s, with difficulty to see the unfamiliar or novel, i̶n̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶v̶e̶

ESTJ - *active*, decisive, *argumentative*, with a high interest in taking charge, *competitiveness*, and getting things done actively, with *more ability to deal with what comes up*, *ability to see some big picture too*

I bolded the words that I explicitly *identify* with, and I put a strikethrough for the words that would explicitly annoy me to see them in myself. The words I did not highlight are things I also relate to quite well but do not identify with them fully. So this seems more ESTJ.

My way of putting my favourite approaches/attitudes though are more ISTJ-like: I like commitment, putting in the effort, keep followthrough for a long-term goal... Otoh I also like to tell people what to do, in a simple short way and I do easily push my opinions, or simply keep influence in ongoing things. Other than that, I do not talk as much about taking charge or managing many people, I talk about or focus on the former things far, far more.



As for functions, there's one specific thing - I would say I have had problems fully relating to the tertiary Fi. I experience myself as a bit too detached to "own" my feelings like that. When younger I was a bit more in touch with emotions, but that changed. I however never really "owned" my feelings. It's always been more "clinical" than that for me. I'm rarely ok with getting into feelings/emotions for long. It can be OK then though. But otherwise they are not there much. Can extra strong auxiliary Thinking account for this?



Another question would be, would all this be accounted for by being sx/so possibly in Enneagram, on top of being ISTJ?


Thanks for any input on this.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

A quick note: when something comes up, I can't respond fast AT ALL when it's something in a personal relationship. As long as it's practical, concrete, logical stuff, I can. Miserably bad at this in a personal relationship.


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## Decappuccino (Nov 14, 2018)

grumpytiger said:


> As far as I understand, the ISTJ stereotype is really passive, polite, reliable, meticulous, detail oriented and cautious, indecisive with difficulty to see the unfamiliar or novel. And the ESTJ stereotype is active, even argumentative, with a high interest in taking charge and decisiveness, competitiveness, and getting things done actively, with more ability to deal with what comes up, seeing more of a big picture, correct me though if I'm wrong on this, specifically I'm not sure how much ESTJ can deal with what comes up compared to ISTJ.


I would hardly call ISTJs "passive" (that auxiliary Te really knows how to make itself known, and god help you if you manage to anger their tertiary Fi to boot) and tertiary Ne in ESTJs isn't so much the ability to see the bigger picture as it is coming up with creative solutions to a given problem, but other than that you're pretty spot on. Those are still stereotypes of course, just fairly accurate ones.



grumpytiger said:


> I've realised I like to be active and have enough energy and the idea of being too passive bothers me. I do want to take rest from being highly active but the idea of being mostly passive is a nightmare to me. At least the idea of it yeah. In practice, I can take it for a while but then I do want to get set for a goal.


That sounds more Te-dom than Si-dom. Te-doms need to feel productive and achieve results nearly constantly; Si-doms are generally fine with lying back and relaxing for a bit, even if they can still find it harder to unwind than those lazy xNxPs.



grumpytiger said:


> Then how active I am for that goal, it depends on the goal, whether it just requires follow through needing lower energy, or whether it requires taking a lot of action, needing more effort. Actually, I like to put in the effort a lot, I cannot allow myself to have a moment of being unable to put it in if I decide it's required. That would upset me for sure.


So you adopt your behavior based on what is required to achieve a goal in an effective manner, and when active effort is required, you enjoy it and even find it hard to stop. Very Te-dom, though I suppose an ISTJ with developed Te might behave simialrly.



grumpytiger said:


> What truly bothers me more about the idea of passivity beyond the above is lack of competitiveness or lack of ability to deal with what comes up if I must deal with it. I can do this alright, even if it can get irritating that something gets in the way. What would be more irritating and an actual nightmare though if I did not have the ability of responding pretty fast. I do have that ability and I like it.


Again, very Te-dom mindset, especially the ability to respond fast. ISTJs are less spontaneous and need more time to take important decisions than their extroverted cousins.



grumpytiger said:


> Then about argumentativeness, again it would rather bother me if I never voiced my opinions and I have no problem with getting into an argument. I've had hour long and quite loud arguments with ExxJs/ExTJs. Not very often but sometimes yeah no problem. I even enjoy this okay. Though it's usually like, they are loud and then I have to match myself to that to still be heard. And I am okay with putting in the effort if needed. If I had a problem with any of this, I'd feel too passive.


That sounds more like something an ESTJ would say. ISTJs aren't pushovers, but they generally don't thrive on conflict the way Te-doms do, and they don't actively go looking for it.
So far, you sound like an ESTJ.



grumpytiger said:


> Competitiveness is also big for me, I like goals when it's about competition especially. I find direct competitiveness and confrontation quite fun too. I'm ok with being all tough and forceful for all that. I like that too.


Definitely a Te-dom thing to say. I've never heard that from an ISTJ.



grumpytiger said:


> As for taking charge... this is the one area where I am willing to say I do not always take the active approach... I ensure I have influence but I am fine with staying back and watching as long as I think that's best. This is where I never saw myself as a Te-dom, but... I'd like to hear from others on how ESTJ is with getting more passive sometimes in this area or whether what I've said here excludes ESTJ.


That doesn't necessarily exclude ESTJ. While they are (in)famous for their micromanaging tendencies, their Te-Ne axis can also allow them to set up a plan of action, distribute tasks within their team, and step back expecting the work to be done in time. I also think ESTJs are less challenging of their superiors than ENTJs are because they are more respectful of the hierarchy.
ESTJs, like all Te-doms, tend to naturally step into positions of authority/leadership, while ISTJs, despite generally being good leaders, are more likely to do it if no one else will.



grumpytiger said:


> As for big picture. I often do not need to prepare in a detail-oriented way, I just go take care of things and get them done. It's also what helps with responsiveness when something comes up that I need to deal with where I often even like doing so. In other cases however, when there are many options or complexity, I will want to get into the details, or I will feel too "blind" going without them, I can do it though if forced to. I do have patience for details forever if I see it as necessary for a goal. If not, then zero patience.


That sounds like tertiary Ne more than inferior Ne. While you'd rather not work that way, you can plan while sorting through several options when necessary to reach your goal (very Te-dom). ISTJs prefer relying on methods that proved true in the past, and unless their inferior function is well developed, having too many options stresses them out - instead of the irritation/miffness you describe when you're forced in that kind of situation.



grumpytiger said:


> More on argumentativeness or being opinionated. This is something where I really visibly differ from many ISTJs, apparently. I will not constantly voice opinions, frankly I don't have a need for that, but whenever I do enjoy the interaction, I will very easily get into this, and come off opinionated easily and argumentative too. I am not sure where my level of bluntness and directness falls in terms of type. I also show anger way more readily than many ISTJs, both verbally and nonverbally.


Could be an ESTJ or a very opinionated ISTJ. I don't fit the quiet INTP stereotype one bit either (probably because I was raised by a Te-dom). You're also a 1, which is a gut type, and an sx/so, a cocktail for a potentially more aggressive introvert.



grumpytiger said:


> I do not like thinking deeply for too long or preparing for many everyday things much. I'm almost never fully in my head. My decisiveness also makes me visibly differ from quite some of the ISTJs I've seen.


I agree that you sound more action-oriented than most ISTJs. Not necessarily enough to completely rule it out as a type, but still.



grumpytiger said:


> As for whether socialising/interaction with people drains me or recharges me. It is hard to say, I enjoy some interacting, I feel temporarily higher energy and that can be fun for some reason, but then it can get too much after that. After parties/larger meetings with more people, if I enjoyed the interactions, then afterwards I feel a bit "high" but also a bit tired.


The fact that you feel "a bit high" points more towards extroversion. Extroverts recharge by interacting with the outside world; once they are recharged, they can enjoy some alone time, and of course be tired since extended social contact is draining. Introverts are the opposite in that once they have recharged by spending some (a lot of) time alone, they can go out and enjoy some social interaction until their batteries empty again.



grumpytiger said:


> If I did not enjoy the interactions that much - this also easily happens - then I'm just glad to get away and go do my own thing. I get very tense and drained as hell if I have to stay around otherwise. The tension seems to come from constantly holding back in a bad way, not being able to do much or enjoy much. Once I finally get away, I do not feel tired or this extra tense anymore though, I instantly feel refreshed instead lol.


I think that's just a normal human reaction - whether you're extroverted or introverted - to non-enjoyable social interactions.



grumpytiger said:


> As for emotional expression, many ISTJs have very low expression of them, which is not true of me, I express some, but that may be me being female. Afaik ESTJ is about average with emotional expression though, and I'm not sure I hit average for a female. With anger though, I pretty easily express that like I said. It's never truly expressed in full, but still pretty visible. I would dislike it if I was to get fully emotional about its expression, that's a big no-no, not sure about ESTJ with that. Other than that, I heard ESTJ can go on for very long expressing anger or a tantrum, etc., like for an hour, I can't go on for long at all. An hour, nope not a chance. Think of a few seconds for most of it lol.


ISTJs have a low expression of emotions because they have tertiary Fi, meaning their feelings are turned inwards. However, they are much better at identifying and dealing with their emotions than ESTJs, who generally struggle with handling most of them properly. Anger is common, but anger is a secondary emotion; if you ask an ESTJ to identify the primary emotion that caused their anger in the first place, they are likely to not know. ISTJs have a much softer edge because of their tertiary Fi.
As for the "ESTJs stay angry for a while", that's not what I observed. When a Te-dom blows up, and unless they don't like you at all or you did something really bad, they're often just as quick to cool down and even act like nothing happened - and I've made a *lot* of Te-doms angry (not always willingly).



grumpytiger said:


> So if we take the adjectives above in terms of what my *conscious self-image* has:
> 
> ISTJ - p̶a̶s̶s̶i̶v̶e̶, polite, reliable, *meticulous, detail oriented *and c̶a̶u̶t̶i̶o̶u̶s, with difficulty to see the unfamiliar or novel, i̶n̶d̶e̶c̶i̶s̶i̶v̶e̶
> 
> ...


More ESTJ indeed. I've never met an ISTJ who considered being cautious a negative trait, not one bit. Si-dom means they tend to favour caution, even.



grumpytiger said:


> My way of putting my favourite approaches/attitudes though are more ISTJ-like: I like commitment, putting in the effort, keep followthrough for a long-term goal... Otoh I also like to tell people what to do, in a simple short way and I do easily push my opinions, or simply keep influence in ongoing things. Other than that, I do not talk as much about taking charge or managing many people, I talk about or focus on the former things far, far more.


ESTJs absolutely like all those things you've listed as being ISTJ-like.
Combined with everything that you wrote before, you sound more ESTJ than ISTJ.



grumpytiger said:


> As for functions, there's one specific thing - I would say I have had problems fully relating to the tertiary Fi. I experience myself as a bit too detached to "own" my feelings like that. When younger I was a bit more in touch with emotions, but that changed. I however never really "owned" my feelings. It's always been more "clinical" than that for me. I'm rarely ok with getting into feelings/emotions for long. It can be OK then though. But otherwise they are not there much. Can extra strong auxiliary Thinking account for this?


Tertiary Fi = strong, unwavering set of morals and values which the user draws upon to dictate many of their major decisions + ability to identify and handle one's emotions relatively well
Inferior Fi = general disdain for emotional expression and a fear of being perceived as ‘weak’ by others + trouble identifying one's primary emotions (anger doesn't count)
You sound more inferior Fi than tertiary, especially with that previous bit where you mentioned emotional expression and your next post about struggling to make decisions in personal relationships.



grumpytiger said:


> Another question would be, would all this be accounted for by being sx/so possibly in Enneagram, on top of being ISTJ?


Possibly, but even an ISTJ sx/so would still show a preference for Si over Te and be very in touch with their tertiary Fi, neither of which I see in your posts.

I say ESTJ.


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## The Veteran (Oct 24, 2018)

> I've been typing ISTJ for years but... Thanks for any input!


You either get inputs or you don't.


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## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

@grumpytiger

Having known I'm an ISTJ and being on this forum for about a decade now, I'll give you some pointers. I've never been mistyped, and my personality does not come close to any other type for me to doubt myself. Even after reading several books and plenty of research, I've always identified as ISTJ.

Read this page with the ISTJ description: http://personalitypage.com/html/ISTJ.html

This is the site that I've found to be most accurate on descriptions not just with the ISTJ type but with all types. I find it to be unbiased and objective. Personally, I've found every single line true to my personality. You can also read the other type profile descriptions on the site to see if you identify with any other types. 

There are many MBTI sites, and most of them were created to make profit. What that means is that the creators tried to make the descriptions as relatable as possible to many people so that you and others would buy into their products. I've also found that some creators wrote the ISTJ descriptions based on their subjective views, meaning the descriptions could not be applicable to the entire ISTJ population. Many creators like to "rewrite" the MBTI descriptions, which is like _redefining the wheel_ which I am not in favor of. I like to dive deeper on creators _expounding _on the theory not redefining it.

* *




_Redefining the wheel is the practice of coming up with new and often abstruse ways of describing things when the existing way of describing them was perfectly adequate._




Besides the points above, there are many other reasons of how people came to be mistyped. Many members on this forum are mistyped, including those who identify as ISTJs but are not. Because you have formed an opinion of what an ISTJ is based on years of misinformation, I recommend you to erase what you know and start on a blank slate. 

I don't recommend using quizzes for the reasons you listed and many other reasons. Because it's not working for you, you're better off avoiding them. I also have not read the word "passive" in an ISTJ description. I don't know where you got it from, but I don't think passive is a word that describes most ISTJs. I have to ask you though, what is your intent of finding your accurate type? How do you benefit from this and what will you do with the information?

Let me know if the ISTJ profile describes you well or if you find another type that describes you better. I have more tips to give and articles that will help you, but I don't have the time right now so I'll get back to you later.


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## Steelight (Mar 15, 2017)

I usually test as INTJ, but I once tested as ISTJ and when I looked up different descriptions of ISTJs, half of it was waaaaay off base for me. But what I have noticed is that anytime a test shows the percentages of each category, my N and S are typically very close. The one time I typed as ISTJ, the S was 51%. With INTJ, the N is usually ~60%, so I definitely don't line up with the stereotypical INTJ, but even less so with ISTJ. I recently did a cognitive functions test that had my Se at 56% and my Si at 55%. Since I'm still mostly clueless about the types and functions, I'm guessing the Se and Si have something to do with me almost being an ISTJ myself.

No matter what your type is, you're going to use all of the cognitive functions in different amounts, so you're never going to be all of one type at all times. I can't tell you how many times someone's told me I'm not a "real INTJ", but guess what? If you look at the other types, I'm not "real" to any other type either, but INTJ is what most closely resembles me. Because no one would classify me as a "real ISTJ" either, and that's the only other one that halfway looks accurate to me. But I have a LOT to learn about all this. It's interesting, but I haven't invested any real time into this area...yet.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Decappuccino said:


> I would hardly call ISTJs "passive" (that auxiliary Te really knows how to make itself known, and god help you if you manage to anger their tertiary Fi to boot) and tertiary Ne in ESTJs isn't so much the ability to see the bigger picture as it is coming up with creative solutions to a given problem, but other than that you're pretty spot on. Those are still stereotypes of course, just fairly accurate ones.


Thanks for the detailed input! It definitely is something I'm going to have to consider more closely.

Overall, my brand of Te, would you say how it specifically differs from "auxiliary Te really knows how to make itself known"? (If we disregard the possible inferior Fi, etc for a second.) Like, when the aux Te really really comes out. I understand your conclusion, I am just curious about seeing this part more clearly.


With creative solutions, hmm I am only decent at this when I really really want something, or I feel the situation is special that really requires a quick response that needs a less than obvious (to me) solution, that's closer to emergency mode than normal situations though. Not necessarily some big emergency, I just mean this is utilising extra resources for me if that makes sense. But yeah then I get extra (always concrete though) options come up out of nowhere and they are usually usable immediately, yet they are not solutions that I'd see by default, so yes call them creative a bit lol.

I'm otherwise hopeless at brainstorming and dislike trying to do that. These "nonstandard" yet very concrete options though, finding them is enjoyable in these specific situations. Anger/being pissed off/strong desire/want/arousal will help me think of more of them, for some reason.




> That sounds more Te-dom than Si-dom. Te-doms need to feel productive and achieve results nearly constantly; Si-doms are generally fine with lying back and relaxing for a bit, even if they can still find it harder to unwind than those lazy xNxPs.


Right, unless I decided to really sit back and relax with something enjoyable, I am always focused on something. Tasks, short-term goals, long-term goals.




> So you adopt your behavior based on what is required to achieve a goal in an effective manner, and when active effort is required, you enjoy it and even find it hard to stop. Very Te-dom, though I suppose an ISTJ with developed Te might behave simialrly.


That's right. I like to be fast and make a challenge out of a small task too that way lol




> Again, very Te-dom mindset, especially the ability to respond fast. ISTJs are less spontaneous and need more time to take important decisions than their extroverted cousins.


Oh for important decisions I'm usually like "ok, nevermind pros and cons, here's the bottom line on what I want and I will go for this - decided". For everyday smaller decisions, it's similar, with the most relevant pros and cons and the rest is ignored. Then for very new and complex things, I patiently absorb all the details first, even compulsively to cover everything. That does take some time. I do still dislike taking more time with it than what I think is okay/warranted. Then eventually bottom-line decision. No second-guessing.

I'm not very spontaneous though, just a little bit. It gets to feel aimless if it isn't in service of a goal. If it is, then sure lol, it's fine to act in a way that's seemingly impulsive-ish (but it's not truly impulsive)




> That sounds more like something an ESTJ would say. ISTJs aren't pushovers, but they generally don't thrive on conflict the way Te-doms do, and they don't actively go looking for it.
> So far, you sound like an ESTJ.


I am only okay with conflict if it is not made personal. Personal shit is my death. I never start these hour long arguments myself but I don't back down from these for sure. I do start smaller conflicts so lol in that sense I go look for it. Overall what I mean is... I will be more a "responder" to someone who will go on and make the argument this long, I will not try to maintain it for this long on my own, I do not have that type of energy. Does this clarify? About how much I go actively looking for conflict.




> Definitely a Te-dom thing to say. I've never heard that from an ISTJ.


OK, good to know. I assume you mean the forcefulness. It's one of the main adjectives I get told lol sigh.

The toughness is just... something I can't live without. A very "logic-based" thing for sure. No sensitive soft feelz 




> That doesn't necessarily exclude ESTJ. While they are (in)famous for their micromanaging tendencies, their Te-Ne axis can also allow them to set up a plan of action, distribute tasks within their team, and step back expecting the work to be done in time. I also think ESTJs are less challenging of their superiors than ENTJs are because they are more respectful of the hierarchy.
> ESTJs, like all Te-doms, tend to naturally step into positions of authority/leadership, while ISTJs, despite generally being good leaders, are more likely to do it if no one else will.


Ah I see. No I would not say that I only try to lead if no one else will. It really depends on the situation. I do not always engage actively. Otoh, as soon as I get engaged and want to influence things, it is natural for me to want to take some lead too. But I also keep a watch on what others do and I take it all into account and will step back from trying to lead if it makes more sense that way. This considered stepping back is also pretty natural.

I'm not always that truly respectful of the hierarchy though lol. It's always a considered response too, as to my behaving with respect to superiors without challenging them vs expressing disagreements. When I'm to follow the authority, I actually often have an opposing, or even slightly rebellious stance internally, so I do not feel I fully submitted. Lol and I don't mind being this way. I just don't tend to talk about it. :kitteh: It's like... it's there, on the ready to act even against the authority if need be. A constant readiness that's there just in case.




> That sounds like tertiary Ne more than inferior Ne. While you'd rather not work that way, you can plan while sorting through several options when necessary to reach your goal (very Te-dom). ISTJs prefer relying on methods that proved true in the past, and unless their inferior function is well developed, having too many options stresses them out - instead of the irritation/miffness you describe when you're forced in that kind of situation.


That's right about being able to push through like that. When it's just a few options/details to take into account, I just do this decisively.

Do ESTJs feel reliance on details in complex situations and feel a bit "blind" without them ever?

I'd rather not allow too many options to stress me out, right again. You are very spot on there, this relates strongly to my self-image of not wanting to be passive and indecisive. I'll either push through quick or patiently absorb and methodically and confidently sort through details to arrive to the decision. The one thing I'm unwilling to do is sit on the options and overthink the pros/cons, or freeze and not be able to decide within a couple of seconds when required or when I want to. That is what indecisiveness means to me.

As for relying on proven and true methods. I think I do rely on them though most of them have become rather automatic and ingrained. I have a problem with finding a method for dealing with something in some *new* situations because I get at the thing too fast and impatient. Then if that didn't work, I will get frustrated lol. I am so predictable with that lol but I can't help it. Because impatience. Then I find my method and I calm down and feel in control fully. Patient, calm, yet in control, no frustration, nothing getting in the way.

Basically I don't mind calming down and being methodical to avoid things getting in my way. I think I want those things to become predictable for this reason, and the methodical approach is for that purpose besides efficiency of course. To avoid irritation, frustration. Not because I'd be afraid that I can't deal with something coming up. Overall uh, really there is a fine balance between the impatience and the patience like that.

When my sense of caution (I do have some just not THAT much lol) gets triggered for whatever reason, that is when I actually approach the thing more calmly, slowly and methodically right away. Applies to anything, objects, situations. I think the sense of caution gets triggered due to a sense of ambiguity? Ambiguity I don't like at all.

Though if it's something coming up that wants to get in my way then often I will not have much of the caution, more impatience then bc I am already irritated lol. Regardless of ambiguity or whatever. I suspect in that mode I see less ambiguity and less detail anyway (more big picture).

Hm, also about patience with details. This is out of a desire for thoroughness in certain situations, especially complex situations. I simply want detailed optimisation then, more clarity, and generally want to avoid later frustration over the wrong decision if I were to see that there was a better, more satisfying decision. For example, find the best deal, a cool desirable object for the lowest possible price lol. In some cases, it is also cautiousness if I know making the wrong move will result in a really bad consequence. Say, applying for a work visa to a country where you know it's hard to get one.




> Could be an ESTJ or a very opinionated ISTJ. I don't fit the quiet INTP stereotype one bit either (probably because I was raised by a Te-dom). You're also a 1, which is a gut type, and an sx/so, a cocktail for a potentially more aggressive introvert.


Right, I could be convinced for ESTJ 1 sx/sp or ISTJ 1 sx/so (definitely not ESTJ with sx/so though, I imagine that would be a very, very obvious extravert).




> I agree that you sound more action-oriented than most ISTJs. Not necessarily enough to completely rule it out as a type, but still.


Yeah the indecisiveness problem made me baffled when I read about it lol




> The fact that you feel "a bit high" points more towards extroversion. Extroverts recharge by interacting with the outside world; once they are recharged, they can enjoy some alone time, and of course be tired since extended social contact is draining. Introverts are the opposite in that once they have recharged by spending some (a lot of) time alone, they can go out and enjoy some social interaction until their batteries empty again.


Yeah, my only problem here is the "high" means it is not my natural default. Yet it's enjoyable. A bit like being drunk (I don't need alcohol for this effect though).




> I think that's just a normal human reaction - whether you're extroverted or introverted - to non-enjoyable social interactions.


Yeah, I just find it weird that if I decide to engage myself with something more passive instead of the non-enjoyable interactions, say, I sit down and try to read something, I'll still be just as tense and drained simply from the fact that I'm there. Like I can't shut out the people properly. And I can when I am focused on a task, I shut out people factors very well then, no problem. But in a situation that's supposed to be social, nope. I am not sure if this is I/E rather than just being an S type liking to stay physically present in the situation. In fact, thinking about this further, if I just try to keep engaged with some action even without it being social, I'm okay actually. Maybe because then I get task-focused enough. Lol I think this issue is complex.




> ISTJs have a low expression of emotions because they have tertiary Fi, meaning their feelings are turned inwards. However, they are much better at identifying and dealing with their emotions than ESTJs, who generally struggle with handling most of them properly. Anger is common, but anger is a secondary emotion; if you ask an ESTJ to identify the primary emotion that caused their anger in the first place, they are likely to not know. ISTJs have a much softer edge because of their tertiary Fi.
> As for the "ESTJs stay angry for a while", that's not what I observed. When a Te-dom blows up, and unless they don't like you at all or you did something really bad, they're often just as quick to cool down and even act like nothing happened - and I've made a *lot* of Te-doms angry (not always willingly).


Ahh this is very interesting. Nah I was never good at identifying or managing my emotions. I had a little ability for this but not much of it naturally. I learned a lot about it in recent years though, so now it's getting more natural. It's been a BIG struggle though, no question about that!!

Eh anger being a secondary emotion, I have heard that theory and I keep opposing it lol. It makes no sense to me. : p Makes no sense to single out anger as an emotion that can only be secondary. So you are right, I would not see anything behind the anger, no other emotion. I dislike even the idea of that as you can see. 

Hm as for softer edge. If you meet me for the first time, you'll see a soft, nice, smiling and reserved presentation of me with me being a girl especially. I am good at that actually. Then the opinionated and direct me will come out later lol. Less reserved overall and not soft.

Thanks for the clarification on Te-dom anger. I meant specifically ESTJs here, I've definitely seen the quick short ENTJ anger. 

Actually about not liking someone... if I do have a personal problem with someone's attitude towards me, and it is not resolved quickly, I do get angry longer, though I still do not like to and don't have a very good capacity to stay angry very long at a time. Especially with strong anger or rage. After 5 minutes of that, I feel like it's been going on forever and will never stop lol. I prefer to stay in control more than that.




> More ESTJ indeed. I've never met an ISTJ who considered being cautious a negative trait, not one bit. Si-dom means they tend to favour caution, even.


Right, for me it's related to too much passiveness and indecision. But additionally it's just annoying a bit. Favouring it, that's a strong word to me lol. No way I'd want to consciously favour it. I'm more about avoidance of frustration than avoidance of risk. I do avoid some big risks of course, but then sometimes people feel there is a big risk where I see none and act accordingly (in a "risky" way). Then with some risks, I only think of them later. Like sometimes only years later LOL




> ESTJs absolutely like all those things you've listed as being ISTJ-like.
> Combined with everything that you wrote before, you sound more ESTJ than ISTJ.


I read that ESTJs focus more on goals than on commitment/consistency. For me ofcourse, again it gets complex lol. These two strong tendencies of mine can become incompatible in some cases. Oh well... 

How about the fact that I don't talk as much about taking charge or managing people? Relative to the things I said are ISTJ-like.




> Tertiary Fi = strong, unwavering set of morals and values which the user draws upon to dictate many of their major decisions + ability to identify and handle one's emotions relatively well
> Inferior Fi = general disdain for emotional expression and a fear of being perceived as ‘weak’ by others + trouble identifying one's primary emotions (anger doesn't count)
> You sound more inferior Fi than tertiary, especially with that previous bit where you mentioned emotional expression and your next post about struggling to make decisions in personal relationships.


Hahahah about how anger doesn't count. Alright, it definitely sounds like I've developed some more Feeling in recent years, but not to the point of believing that anger must be a secondary emotion 

I do like to try and reach for this "emotional compass" though now when it comes to relationships or just people and emotion related things. It is a cool ability I had less of before. I always had some but it was incredibly basic and very little. Only when it came to it being real obvious that, say, the relationship isn't working at all.

It is still all very new so I am still miserable with responding fast enough with these matters lol. But I have trust I will be getting better in this area. It does seem complex because most of these newly identified feelings are fleeting and each one is only a piece of the whole big picture. So may be best to have my details-focused patient side here with collecting these and waiting until I collect enough for a decision.

As for morals and values, I do have a problem with directly focusing on those in a personal way. That Thinking gotta make these things defined and objective asap. If I can get all technical and objective about it then I am all okay. Otherwise it will feel uncomfortable. But then if I can do that, I can talk with real conviction because the feelings got properly justified .

About emotional expression, I don't have active disdain for it, I'm just more private about these things, I have some serious distrust and lack of comfort about doing too much emotional expression in public. It's true I do not like to show or even feel "weak soft feelings".




> Possibly, but even an ISTJ sx/so would still show a preference for Si over Te and be very in touch with their tertiary Fi, neither of which I see in your posts.
> 
> I say ESTJ.


Thanks for your opinion. I asked a few questions for a little more clarification, if you don't mind. If you have any additional comments based on what I added now, I'd be curious.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

@sriracha 

Thanks for the input and the link. I saw this before, it's a decent fit, though it does not take into account some other parts of mine (fails to mention them) which I elaborated on in this thread.

As to what I would like to do with the information on type. It's just for more self-knowledge/understanding myself/exploring myself more and then relative to that, it is easier to see some things about other people too.

Oh the passiveness issue. This article does imply that to me, with being mainly quiet, reserved and with the main interest just being in security and peaceful living. This is the kind of thing I meant. I didn't mean passive as in being totally lazy or doing nothing at all but being quite introverted and low-key, along with the indecisiveness issue (hence not taking action easily). Hope this clarifies.

BTW I don't know if you remember me, we talked a bit a while ago where you did question my type. I do not mind you adding input for that here on the thread as to what seemed non-ISTJ in my posts before.


@Steelight

Thanks. Yeah I agree that we are not one black and white type and that we all use all cognitive functions in some ways.  I'm trying to see the best way of putting all these aspects together (Enneagram can count into it too). Do have fun learning more about all this and about yourself too.


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

I don't think you are an ISTJ. If i recall back our interaction from the past, you saying to me things like "you are too cautious" seems just wrong if you also had inferior Ne. Also as you pointed out, way too argumentative.

Problem with those type me threads like this is they are listing just traits. While personality types are consisting of sets of cognitive functions which explain why something happened, what lead to specific decision, how person thinks and perceives the world. Not what actual person does. The same behaviour can come from different reasons. To type right one must have figure out that thought process. It is hard to really say anything from this.

When we last talked i had slight doubts, because i was also taking this approach, but I am for long time secure on my typing because on cognitive level it fits. Offical MBTI is BS.

The key for the type is Inferior function to me. Reading Jung helps (though it is not easy read). From that text i could see ESTJ, but honestly ESFP could also fit that. Te-fi seems pretty certain, but figuring out perceiving axis online is quite rough. This whole "I don't understand or control my emotions" talk leads to nowhere. I have seen actual INFPs saying that.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

@Elwinz hey there and thanks for the input. It makes sense about cognitive stuff. For me, I do see thought processes for myself, but not their ordering as functions. ESFP is unlikely for me.  I can imagine INFPs not controlling their emotions while also not understanding them in a way lol i.e. they have the feelings and they act by them, but they are not able to organise and label them, etc.


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## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

grumpytiger said:


> @srirachaAs to what I would like to do with the information on type. It's just for more self-knowledge/understanding myself/exploring myself more and then relative to that, it is easier to see some things about other people too.
> 
> Oh the passiveness issue. This article does imply that to me, with being mainly *quiet, reserved* and with the main interest just being in *security* and *peaceful living*. This is the kind of thing I meant. I didn't mean passive as in being totally lazy or doing nothing at all but being quite *introverted and low-key*, along with the indecisiveness issue (hence not taking action easily). Hope this clarifies.


Just to clarify, are you saying that the words I bolded above do not identify with your personality? Have you read the other type descriptions on the site I linked, and if so do you identify close to any other types?

Have you ever considered that you are *no type*? I find that too many people come on here desperate to squish themselves into a box they cannot fit in. And then they try to adopt traits, changing themselves to fit the type descriptions even if it feels unnatural. If the MBTI theory cannot give explanation on who you _already _are, then you're better off not using it. Humans are very complex creatures. There are lots of personality theories out there, and MBTI is only one of them. It works perfectly for me, but it may not work for you. Because you have the intent of wanting to understand and explore yourself more, I recommend you to search out other personality theories. Labelling and defining yourself as something that is not true to your personality is not any help on your journey of self-knowledge.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

sriracha said:


> Just to clarify, are you saying that the words I bolded above do not identify with your personality? Have you read the other type descriptions on the site I linked, and if so do you identify close to any other types?
> 
> Have you ever considered that you are *no type*? I find that too many people come on here desperate to squish themselves into a box they cannot fit in. And then they try to adopt traits, changing themselves to fit the type descriptions even if it feels unnatural. If the MBTI theory cannot give explanation on who you _already _are, then you're better off not using it. Humans are very complex creatures. There are lots of personality theories out there, and MBTI is only one of them. It works perfectly for me, but it may not work for you. Because you have the intent of wanting to understand and explore yourself more, I recommend you to search out other personality theories. Labelling and defining yourself as something that is not true to your personality is not any help on your journey of self-knowledge.


I do relate to the bolded but only in half. I'm pretty ambiverted. The only other description I relate decently well to on that site is ESTJ. I am somewhere between the two.

As for your warning - I don't really have the slightest idea as to how I would even begin to try and adopt new traits. Nor do I have the interest in that. I am what I am.

I did not say MBTI was completely useless to me, I am just exploring this a bit further. I am aware of other personality theories too. (Never said I was not.)

Do you remember what you saw as non-ISTJ in my posts before?


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

sriracha said:


> Just to clarify, are you saying that the words I bolded above do not identify with your personality? Have you read the other type descriptions on the site I linked, and if so do you identify close to any other types?
> 
> Have you ever considered that you are *no type*? I find that too many people come on here desperate to squish themselves into a box they cannot fit in. And then they try to adopt traits, changing themselves to fit the type descriptions even if it feels unnatural. If the MBTI theory cannot give explanation on who you _already _are, then you're better off not using it. Humans are very complex creatures. There are lots of personality theories out there, and MBTI is only one of them. It works perfectly for me, but it may not work for you. Because you have the intent of wanting to understand and explore yourself more, I recommend you to search out other personality theories. Labelling and defining yourself as something that is not true to your personality is not any help on your journey of self-knowledge.


That is what i did. No MBTI type. Type 6 in enneagram and Jungian Si dominant. MBTI ISTJ profile doesn't fit, nether makes any sense. First thing is MBTI ISTJ has Fe not Fi, secondly all this following the rules non sense. I am Si first, i follow the rules convenient/comfortable to me, break a lot of them actually.. Blindly following external rules i would read as Te dominance. But yeah Myer's ISTJ is less social ESTJ basically and more logical, less sensitive SFJ..All Myer's SJ are roughly the same actually


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## UltimaRatio (Jan 31, 2019)

grumpytiger said:


> So. I realise that


No.

_Please respect the protocol. Go through the chain of command. We will contact you for a meet to better understand your grievances.
_
Seriously...

Stereotypes. You are ESTJ if you like mainly to lead or organize teams... ESTJ are dominators. It's not an option. They speak a lot too. A non-management ESTJ is an unfortunate ESTJ. But you can be ISTJ and competitive or lead a team if the opportunity arises. It will be just less nervous. Do you know that most of the soldiers are ISTJ. Most police officers are also ISTJ and are in constant activity so they can be very speed and competitive. 

Arthur Wellington was ISTJ.

In essence, you think that _introvert_ means submission ... When it's simply means that management is not our absolute preference.


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## UltimaRatio (Jan 31, 2019)

Steelight said:


> I usually test as INTJ, but I once tested as ISTJ .



You make me think to Brienne of Tarth, ISTJ:


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

So you are sure you are XSTJ. So what are you proposing? That you are ESTJ?
Are you an extravert?

Only thing this pointed out is that you have strong Te and weak Fi.

So examine the Si and Ne, do you think you have stronger Ne than Fi? Or Stronger Te that Si. Can you Te longer than you can Si or do you need a break? When you take a break what do you do?

I think Sx/So can make someone more argumentative since it's in contra flow, and that's separate from type. Sx/So is the boldest of the IVs.


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## sriracha (Sep 19, 2010)

grumpytiger said:


> I do relate to the bolded but only in half. I'm pretty ambiverted. The only other description I relate decently well to on that site is ESTJ. I am somewhere between the two.
> 
> Do you remember what you saw as non-ISTJ in my posts before?


The biggest thing that is non-ISTJ about your posts is that many of them are super long. A majority of the time, ISTJs do not like long posts. They will try to write their posts with preciseness but straight to the point. I don't want to eliminate xSTJ as a possibility for you, because I know English is your second language and culture may have to do with your writing style. But it does seem like you lack self-awareness.


Here's a site that can help you understand more of the theory (read part III): 
https://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/theory#dom
https://mbti-notes.tumblr.com/basics#off


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

UltimaRatio said:


> No.
> 
> _Please respect the protocol. Go through the chain of command. We will contact you for a meet to better understand your grievances.
> _


:dry:




> Seriously...
> 
> Stereotypes. You are ESTJ if you like mainly to lead or organize teams... ESTJ are dominators. It's not an option. They speak a lot too. A non-management ESTJ is an unfortunate ESTJ. But you can be ISTJ and competitive or lead a team if the opportunity arises. It will be just less nervous. Do you know that most of the soldiers are ISTJ. Most police officers are also ISTJ and are in constant activity so they can be very speed and competitive.
> 
> ...


You are right about how I was interpreting introversion. A lot of people post about it like that.

According to your criteria, I'm ISTJ.

Actually, that makes total sense the way you put it.

That is, I am active in that I like achieving and accomplishing things and putting in the effort for that, with some competitiveness and quite strong willingness to fight but always being the boss for the whole group or team everywhere would be too extraverted. While you say that only that is true extraversion.




Lord Pixel said:


> So you are sure you are XSTJ. So what are you proposing? That you are ESTJ?
> Are you an extravert?
> 
> Only thing this pointed out is that you have strong Te and weak Fi.
> ...


I was not proposing that I had to be an ESTJ, I wanted to see more about it though, yes.

Funnily enough, I need a break from both - sometimes from Te, and sometimes from Si. Though it's different for a Te break than for a Si break...

About Te - if I have been active doing things actively - and not just the detail oriented or routine stuff - for a long time, then I do like to rest. That rest is pretty passive even if not 100% passive, and I withdraw to be alone. I either read something easy or sometimes maybe watch a video with someone I like to be with, or it's late enough to go bed and just sleep. I don't like to be too passive, so yeah, if I'm just passive not even reading, I get uncomfortable, I'd rather sleep than just be fully passive like that. All in all, I do definitely need some downtime and rest, though that seems a natural, necessary thing for everyone.

And about Si, if I have been doing routine or detail oriented work with relatively little action beyond that, then after a while I can get to feel it's a bit too low key, low energy, low mood (though by this I mostly mean just being unemotional), whatever. If I was to be like this forever, I'd be sorely missing the action and excitement. I'd need someone to at least entertain me enough then. I do overall have high tolerance for doing less action-oriented tasks though, I have patience enough. All in all, I would psychologically be capable of doing this kind of life forever but I'd feel unfulfilled. Whatever that means. Maybe needing the inferior function too, idk.

So things like this definitely made me consider the I/E letter more.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

sriracha said:


> The biggest thing that is non-ISTJ about your posts is that many of them are super long. A majority of the time, ISTJs do not like long posts. They will try to write their posts with preciseness but straight to the point. I don't want to eliminate xSTJ as a possibility for you, because I know English is your second language and culture may have to do with your writing style. But it does seem like you lack self-awareness.
> 
> 
> Here's a site that can help you understand more of the theory (read part III):
> ...


Oh I mainly write long when I get into internal aspects of myself or other people. Metacognitive, sometimes emotional.

I do not like your assumption that I lack self-awareness... that was pretty rude and uncalled-for. Besides being nonfactual.

Thanks for the links though. I have been on this forum for years so I have the theory basics alright, but more detail on the functions etc. never hurts.




Elwinz said:


> That is what i did. No MBTI type. Type 6 in enneagram and Jungian Si dominant. MBTI ISTJ profile doesn't fit, nether makes any sense. First thing is MBTI ISTJ has Fe not Fi, secondly all this following the rules non sense. I am Si first, i follow the rules convenient/comfortable to me, break a lot of them actually.. Blindly following external rules i would read as Te dominance. But yeah Myer's ISTJ is less social ESTJ basically and more logical, less sensitive SFJ..All Myer's SJ are roughly the same actually


ISTJ has Fe and not Fi? How?


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## Elwinz (Jan 30, 2018)

grumpytiger said:


> ISTJ has Fe and not Fi? How?


In official MBTI manual: ISTJ Si-Te-Fe-Ne ISFJ Si-Fe-Te-Ne
ISTJ with Fi is in Grant-Brownsword stack.


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