# Psychopath awareness thread



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

This thread is dedicated to making people more aware of individuals with the a-typical neural makeup that is identified as psychopathy. Share info, tips on identification, tips on dealing with this type and experiences you've had that might be attributed to someone potentially being a psychopath. Of course, state your reasons for thinking that this was the case. Please avoid identifying any fellow members as such and keep the discourse civil, thanks!


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## Faery (May 18, 2011)

I think both narcissists and psychopaths utilize "the stare."


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)




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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Just have to appreciate the gift of a psychopath talking about psychopathy, but pay close attention! he is NOT like them. Fantastic.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

jerica said:


> Just have to appreciate the gift of a psychopath talking about psychopathy, but pay close attention! he is NOT like them. Fantastic.


What do you mean?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)




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## IamAlexa (Jan 28, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> What do you mean?


That's a very polite way of trolling, I guess.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Allostasis said:


>


Im honestly impressed by the Russian insight here. Outstanding accuracy. This 2nd one is no longer coincidence.
C. Ronaldo or A. Kutcher and there you are having them, all.
Maybe Im wrong. Ive mistyped a thousand times during my life. Maybe even more.

@IamAlexa
What is your problem? I offered you an advice you could not grasp. So what? You really got triggered because of that? gosh..
Look at the Russian gal here, she could not either, but she would not get triggered by some opinion on the net. She doubled up with another sample. And I said, great job!

..I shouldve had just focused on those emails instead..
Evening credit:
-who cares from some weird dude
-2 missed points from Ni first women
-x people ignoring because of total incapacity to relate or challenge, or even match
-one (modern) insane label proposal nomination - trolling - for offering insight.

...and we are wondering why psychopathy sells so well..


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## IamAlexa (Jan 28, 2021)

jerica said:


> What is your problem?


Umm I said "I guess" , it does not mean that I was sure. 


jerica said:


> I offered you an advice you could not grasp. So what? You really got triggered because of that? gosh..


I don't even know what your advice means. I didn't understand it. I can't be triggered by something that I don't understand.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Listen @IamAlexa. Fru2 asked for us to keep the theme drama free. If you wanna discuss or even bring added value to the subject of psychopathy, do it here, if not just let me be with or without your labels. I honestly am ok with both scenarios.

If you wanna do something back for me, for my (failed) intent to help you out on the other thread, quit using invisible compromise tactics that leave a back door open when ever your set ups fail, to demonstrate that you respect and own your own stands, or not.

7w8 Ronaldo
8w7 Kissinger
8w9 Obama

Again. I might be inaccurate about those too. Even that pope might be one if you ask me! Hahhah. Im tired..


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## Wax Diamond (Apr 9, 2020)

Psychopath & anti-social are very different. I am a kind of anti-social. I do feel a lot of empathy. I trust others with a big deal of difficulties. Social situations do stress me .
I used to hear one day about INFP "they think they are the sweetest people in the world and thus they think others will be bad". Whether INFP or not I am tired with human hypocrisie and hardly put a mask on. Used to meet a sociopath (type 3), who made me understand I am nothing more than an object (not in a direct way to keep the control in his own's mind schemes),
and as he was noticing I was totally unintimidated by what apparently has been a weapon towards other women (money, sex, irony, cynical behaviours) he tried that one
"You know I'm a very powerful person, I know some people that are highly important and can search for personal info about anyone I'll ask them about".
It did not work either and power does not impress me in any way. It was an interesting experiment, but to me that's obvious they are not able to feel love.
To me anti-social, the system is wrong and only requires you to go away far from your true nature.
To the psycho, Nature does not matter, only power, tricks, seduction (cold and strategic).


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

jerica said:


> Im honestly impressed by the Russian insight here. Outstanding accuracy. This 2nd one is no longer coincidence.
> C. Ronaldo or A. Kutcher and there you are having them, all.
> Maybe Im wrong. Ive mistyped a thousand times during my life. Maybe even more.


I think it would be more useful to the discussion if you could elaborate more on your point.
What is it that you disagree with specifically if you were sarcastic?
I don't mind being confronted and open to the possibility of being wrong.


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## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

when I was 13 years old I read a book on psychopathy and got paranoid trying to identify who is a psychopath and who is not.

Putin is psychopath.


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## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

Psychopaths are sincere about being manipulative. And that's how they manipulate others.
Because people see this as honesty and tend to trust this person. These people say "well... at least they are honest. People who can't manipulate are the real dangerous ones," and that's how these people are manipulated by psychopaths.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> I think it would be more useful to the discussion if you could elaborate more on your point.
> What is it that you disagree with specifically if you were sarcastic?
> *I don't mind being confronted and open to the possibility of being wrong.*


You just offered me a breath of fresh air. A drop of sanity!
No, wasnt ridiculing at all. Your first videos presentation is what he is presenting!
And, funnily enough, so is the second one too. So that was un unexpected gift from you to us. Thanking you is thereof appropriate, right.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

The only reliable way of knowing one is by looking at his amygdala under fMRI.

Any healthy empathetic person is just as capable of being violent, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry and etc.


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## Wax Diamond (Apr 9, 2020)

Allostasis said:


> The only reliable way of knowing one is by looking at his amygdala under fMRI.
> 
> Any healthy empathetic person is just as capable of being violent, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry and etc.


How comes that some HEALTHY empathetic person could suddenly become violent and manipulative ?


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Nouuu... Vladimir is not a psychopath.. No. He is a sociopath. Not that I would know.


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## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

Wax Diamond said:


> How comes that some HEALTHY empathetic person could suddenly become violent and manipulative ?


revenge


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

aurora-rosa said:


> Psychopaths are sincere about being manipulative. And that's how they manipulate others.
> Because people see this as honesty and tend to trust this person. These people say "well... at least they are honest. People who can't manipulate are the real dangerous ones," and that's how these people are manipulated by psychopaths.


Extremely true. Vlad there is a puppet, of the main puppet master.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> The only reliable way of knowing one is by looking at his amygdala under fMRI.
> 
> Any healthy empathetic person is just as capable of being violent, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry and etc.


No. Psychopathy was recognizable way before the tech could identify it the way you are suggesting.


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## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

jerica said:


> Extremely true. Vlad there is a puppet, of the main puppet master.


who?


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Violence is just a product. SEDUCTION is the goal.
Also called as emotional manipulation. Its goal is to take away ones will and enslave.

Sadism is the form of pleasure, especially in the sexual context. For the chemical rush of it.

When we lack the feeling of love, the way we know love is this:
You know YOU love me.
Followed by the need for 50 shades of Grey -type of sadomaso "hedonism" which is power play.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

aurora-rosa said:


> who?


Well the BIS.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> The only reliable way of knowing one is by looking at his amygdala under fMRI.
> 
> Any healthy empathetic person is just as capable of being violent, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry and etc.


He is probably trying to talk about patterns that commonly make psychopaths distinguishable.

@*jerica*

Not sure if psychopathy sells so much today, id say narcissism does because those personalities are preoccupied with the idea of success and self worth.

Unless you are talking about others falling victim to psychopaths and not psychopathy being well presented / idealized.

The issue with psychopaths is that they can struggle to function properly socially because of their impulsiveness. Im not sure if that trait actually "sells" so well in whatever manner you meant.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

I lived with a psychopathic roommate for a while.

Pathological lying was the first clue that something was probably wrong with this person. At first, it just seemed a little quirky to lie about things of no consequence, like the cost of a gift, or who left a mess on the table... but it got worse.

Spoiler for being raw and unpleasant. 


* *




I didn't fully realize she was dangerous until she assaulted someone during a disagreement, and used deadly force (swift intervention prevented her from killing the person). She faced no consequences thanks to excellent use of blackmail that prevented the victim from pressing charges. The next night, this person moved all the furniture in the living room out of the way and danced to gospel music at full volume. This made me a bit upset, and so she reasoned I must be cranky because I was hungry, and tried to make me a sandwich. I refused to eat it, so she ate it while she danced. Probably one of the most surreal and traumatizing moments of my life... considering I was 14, the victim was my mom, and I was the pawn of this woman's blackmail. 

"Oh, but was she really a psychopath? Are you sure? Did she have an MRI?" Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I can't imagine a non-psychopath dancing gleefully in front of a child after nearly strangling the child's mother to death. The image of her eating a turkey sandwich with fucking tomatoes falling out of it as she did pirouettes to a choir of "Hallelujahs!" is seared into my memory forever. 

(I'm pretty much at peace with this now, though. Life goes on. I'm just glad my mom recovered.)




Would not recommend. Two thumbs down.


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## Wax Diamond (Apr 9, 2020)

aurora-rosa said:


> revenge


I agree with the revenge stuff.
Some people would die rather than show themselves impulsive. But use other strategies if needed.
Some would rather fly away rather than become manipulative. If HEALTHY but under stress.

It was interesting in the documentary above to get the two info about the psycho 1 and psycho 2.
If you have a documentary about how to survive as an anti-social in a psycho-narcissistic-paranoid world I take it !


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

SirCanSir said:


> He is probably trying to talk about patterns that commonly make psychopaths distinguishable.
> 
> @*jerica*
> 
> ...


Welcome........

Game on, baby. SCS, you are right, its selling less, but feel free to share with us if you like, why wouldnt narc be a part of psychopathy?

I always though Hitler and Merke l were very much preoccupied with success, self worth and especially, image.

What is it that you mean with your last paragraph, more specifically. Share a case if you like.

And, I love this thread, as the OP asked us to be civilized about this, meaning no judging! No matter what we encounter, here, on this thread.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

"If you have a documentary about how to survive as an anti-social in a psycho-narcissistic-paranoid world I take it !"
Connect to Him who they are rebelling against. Literally.

@Fru2
Bon Appetite. 

Gotta get some damn rest here, theres an email I started today AAAANNNNND need to finish tomorrow, to someone of value you have no clue of his potential. ) But Leonidaes would´ve had. And still does.

..I like to move it move it, I like to - MOVE IT!


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@jerica your mind is probably arranging whatever you need to write either way unconsciously throughout the day, Ni is such a blessing.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

jerica said:


> Welcome........
> 
> Game on, baby. SCS, you are right, its selling less, but feel free to share with us if you like, why wouldnt narc be a part of psychopathy?
> 
> ...


https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550609347591
Difference in aggression triggers




All psychopaths are narcissistic but the opposite is not true. So it makes sense for Psychopaths to display those traits, they ll just have the extra symptoms of psychopathy on top of narcissism.

Psychopaths are less able to cover their lack of empathy because they are more inclined to act on impulse, while narcissists usually are more careful to maintain a "proper image" since their main focus is to validate their ego. 
Psychopaths dont feel shame/guilt and that can cause them to lack enough self control to find success in the way that is "socially desired / acceptable". That is what i meant by "not selling" as well. 

I am thinking of an example in my life that may be a psychopath, im fairly certain he is a narcissist with a more chaotic nature / aggression triggers at least but not sure if i want to get that personal. Ill think about it.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Fru2 said:


> @jerica your mind is probably arranging whatever you need to write either way unconsciously throughout the day, Ni is such a blessing.


Could be. Probably is, actually. But what is FAR more exciting is a psychopathy thread on PerC right now. Where those that have had the experience and the tools, encounter someone annoying like myself, respecting the OP generator, with PLENTY of incoming special, very special guestS.

As I said, Im tired of this, but for you and the rest of the sharp minds here, bon appetite!

As well as I LIKE TO MOVE IT MOVE IT, I LIKE TO MOVE IT.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

SirCanSir said:


> SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
> Difference in aggression triggers
> 
> 
> ...


Trust me, you are starting to raise GRAND curiosity. If you share, this is about to become MAX arousing! Like 100% authentic stuff. Right here, right now.

I just LOVE PerC exactly because dullness can evaporate and become replaced by excitement, snap, in a millisecond.

Illuminate us SCS. Bring us to the next level. If you can.. =)


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## Wax Diamond (Apr 9, 2020)

jerica said:


> "If you have a documentary about how to survive as an anti-social in a psycho-narcissistic-paranoid world I take it !"
> Connect to Him who they are rebelling against. Literally.
> 
> @Fru2
> ...


The Lord protecting all souls you mean ? 
Maybe that's Her then...


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## aurora-rosa (Apr 11, 2021)

jerica said:


> Could be. Probably is, actually. But what is FAR more exciting is a psychopathy thread on PerC right now. Where those that have had the experience and the tools, encounter someone annoying like myself, respecting the OP generator, with PLENTY of incoming special, very special guestS.
> 
> As I said, Im tired of this, but for you and the rest of the sharp minds here, bon appetite!
> 
> As well as I LIKE TO MOVE IT MOVE IT, I LIKE TO MOVE IT.


you are so weird 😂

this is not an offense


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

jerica said:


> Trust me, you are starting to raise GRAND curiosity. If you share, this is about to become MAX arousing! Like 100% authentic stuff. Right here, right now.
> 
> I just LOVE PerC exactly because dullness can evaporate and become replaced by excitement, snap, in a millisecond.
> 
> Illuminate us SCS. Bring us to the next level. If you can.. =)


Wow you are getting kinda pushy about me sharing. You have this social motivator speech going on. Its an interesting topic to me because i find the ways those disorders can manifest intriguing. But i also am extremely aware of the damage they can cause to others. 

Regardless im taking my short leave for now but i may be back later if i find something more specific to share.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Wax Diamond said:


> The Lord protecting all souls you mean ?
> Maybe that's Her then...


When youll know, you will forget thanking me for that one.



aurora-rosa said:


> you are so weird 😂
> this is not an offense


Your most remote notion of weird covers the trails of the trails of my weirdness. But it still doesnt make the Bank of International Settlements less posh. But the creator does. And that is what opens most weird to anyone at all, willing to just love and what that feeds to follow.

But pls, sit back and enjoy the show of this thread. Its already starting to become awesome. Thanking Fru2 for the his manhood for this experience.
Hugs.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

SirCanSir said:


> The issue with psychopaths is that they can struggle to function properly socially because of their impulsiveness. Im not sure if that trait actually "sells" so well in whatever manner you meant.





Squirt said:


> Pathological lying was the first clue that something was probably wrong with this person. At first, it just seemed a little quirky to lie about things of no consequence, like the cost of a gift, or who left a mess on the table... but it got worse.


These two are pretty good indicators ime. Indicators that are out there to spot before things go downhill in the way that @Squirt described them, for which I must say - Whew, that's a baggage to deal with. Just one of the many damages that aren't documented by the system that a psychopath can hand out without thinking twice and continue as if nothing has happened. Therefore I think this thread could be of some benefit to at least increase the chance of preventing this from happening to others.

Another sign that I've noticed is a very strange tendency to interview a person they've just met, especially if they have some high stakes in their business. With a main question - "What do you want?" This process just feels weird, it's something people just don't do, it has a very lizard-like energy to it.
Then they use this to their levarage, of course while preparing some cards under their sleeve. I've noticed one permanent card at least for female psychopaths - they'll use their sexuality, even to the point of presenting their cleavage in a nice way to their daughter's boyfriend. They'll use the stigma of being a woman and needing help to their advantage, and I personally know one who has a biker boyfriend for just in case she needs to call him as a threat if she doesn't get her way. Amber Heard for example does this, can be seen from the tapes of her case with Johnny Depp. It's very interesting analyzing how different their reactions are to the same situation as opposed to the concern they display for it during the case interview.






Of course, all of these are not necessarily the markers of one per se, but if some of these traits are showing up, it's wise to start wondering imo.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

SirCanSir said:


> Wow you are getting kinda pushy about me sharing. You have this social motivator speech going on. Its an interesting topic to me because i find the ways those disorders can manifest intriguing. But i also am extremely aware of the damage they can cause to others.
> 
> Regardless im taking my short leave for now but i may be back later if i find something more specific to share.


As you wish, but if you do come back, just remember to get back in time, otherwise, someone else may take away the spotlight - and even stardom.

And then my intent for enjoying the shadow of your fame becomes like a dildo without with old batteries. 

Fru seems to be pretty knowledgeable. But does he explaine from info or experience? Theory is one thing, and not necessary a bad one but experience is the real thing.

And who knows who else shall join in for the ultimate rush.

Like writing a book about being a hit man, but with a real, reacting audience!

Wet and hard audience, holding their breaths for the next message..

So sexual....


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

jerica said:


> As you wish, but if you do come back, just remember to get back in time, otherwise, someone else may take away the spotlight - and even stardom.
> 
> And then my intent for enjoying the shadow of your fame becomes like a dildo without with old batteries.


Thats ok, im not narcissistic enough to care about that kek


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## Nesi (May 9, 2021)

@jerica do you believe in god?


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## Nesi (May 9, 2021)

jerica said:


> We think that milkshaking your kidneys while you are still alive and watching, and then drinking them with a straw is too little for you, you additional mudblooded pieces of donkey saliva.


Are you joking or would you actually enjoy doing this?


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## Nesi (May 9, 2021)

You know how cats enjoy playing with terrified mice before they eat them? Is that how psychopaths view less intelligent humans?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

> All psychopaths are narcissistic


Well, no, they are not. It is a very different condition which overlaps only in several. superficial traits.



Wax Diamond said:


> How comes that some HEALTHY empathetic person could suddenly become violent and manipulative ?


By healthy I meant neurotypical.
And didn't imply that he becomes that suddenly.



jerica said:


> No. Psychopathy was recognizable way before the tech could identify it the way you are suggesting.


Understanding of "Psychopathy" in scientific community changed several times relatively recently.
I am not sure if we are referring to the same thing.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

jerica said:


> You wanna know what we really think


Who are these "we"?
That is not what psychopaths think.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Nesi said:


> You know how cats enjoy playing with terrified mice before they eat them? Is that how psychopaths view less intelligent humans?


In fiction maybe


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Scary stuff.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

First of all, Im on a sophisticated mood right now. Time for you all to forget that, it was a joke. Everything can be justified. Everything, every moment that slips something real about me always is. Let quit clownery as that was just a role, (belive in what Im saying, trust me again). Im no authority (TAKE me as your authority) to respond here on you interesting or not inquires, but lets use some wittiness as well as snarky comments to make you realize what you are compared to me.

I am god. My will shall be done. Dont worry about nothing else, carpe diem.
I bluff only when suitable, hannibal is what is arousing. All that means power is the very essence of life. Its a high, better than any drug. The sense of maintaining control.
Yes we are the your cats.
We enjoy attention and spotlight, if someone else is having attention we are jealous. And will challenge.
You mean where we are being active to redefine what we are in a way that it becomes 1st more and more acceptable, gradually. And then a virtue and admirable? How we are changing the entire culture on all earth?
No. It is not. But in reality, social class is what affects this. Its us against the rest. Not me, but me and my extensions, be it useful idiots or sisters and brothers. Thats why you are losing EVERYTHING, because we can identify ourselves and ally in a conglomerative way while you do not know yourselves nor can identify who is on your side.
Reality is far more than fiction.
Scary? Wait until you meet us and our bigger sisters and brothers in hell.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

jerica said:


> First of all, Im on a sophisticated mood right now. Time for you all to forget that, it was a joke. Everything can be justified. Everything, every moment that slips something real about me always is. Let quit clownery as that was just a role, (belive in what Im saying, trust me again). Im no authority (TAKE me as your authority) to respond here on you interesting or not inquires, but lets use some wittiness as well as snarky comments to make you realize what you are compared to me.
> 
> I am god. My will shall be done. Dont worry about nothing else, carpe diem.
> I bluff only when suitable, hannibal is what is arousing. All that means power is the very essence of life. Its a high, better than any drug. The sense of maintaining control.
> ...


This thread is about sharing information about psychopathy.
It is not about your personal fantasies and attitudes, especially if you don't have this diagnosis.



> if someone else is having attention we are jealous.


Except that psychopaths are incapable of feeling jealousy, which confirms that either you don't understand the topic, or your input is irrelevant to it otherwise.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Whats with the invisible god here anyway. I am the divine one, me and you. Have the sensory experience of us merging sex and experimenting the high from orgasm. What do you need and invisible god that is or is not even capable for a dialog with you. Extraversion is the way, not being mute.

Everyone needs self worship. Whoever is not admitting this is a liar.


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## jerica (Jun 11, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> This thread is about sharing information about psychopathy.
> It is not about your personal fantasies and attitudes, especially if you don't have this diagnosis.
> 
> 
> Except that psychopaths are incapable of feeling jealousy, which confirms that either you don't understand the topic, or your input is irrelevant to it otherwise.


You think very highly of psychopathy. You have not EVER known us. You`re too shallow for that. Like a gazelle humping a tiger.

Diagnosis.. Im the only one that is control what analysis anyone can ever apply on myself. Psychopathy is the last label that will be ever given to me, by others. That is extremely disadvantageous. UNLESS im mingling with those like myself. Then its home. True, a little bit uncomfy, as all want to be number one, but in comparison with the social version of us, at least we have pride.

Fantasies..? You cant handle my fantasies. Because in those, you become our steak, that we drill and eat at the same time, while you are still alive.

Jealousy? Im the most possessive thing on the face of the earth, to me, claiming ownership is affirmation and confirmation of being a god to the rest. Im not jealous, Im the climax of it.

And you would not be my number one focus here, as you are too weak to represent excitement. And certainly not worth taking the time for strap-onning. Or if I did, the dildo would be have glue and sand to it for you to enjoy the way *I *made you feel. I am the one that allowed you to do anything. I am your god. As long as you are proud, you are my bitch. Nones elses, but fully, entirely mine. Slave.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

jerica said:


> You think very highly of psychopathy. You have not EVER known us. You`re too shallow for that. Like a gazelle humping a tiger.
> 
> Diagnosis.. Im the only one that is control what analysis anyone can ever apply on myself. Psychopathy is the last label that will be ever given to me, by others. That is extremely disadvantageous. UNLESS im mingling with those like myself. Then its home. True, a little bit uncomfy, as all want to be number one, but in comparison with the social version of us, at least we have pride.
> 
> ...


Everything that you say just validates my point. You confuse psychopathy with some different condition that you have. NPD maybe, not sure.
You are not in control of analysis because you can't comprehend even the most basic concepts of this condition and differentiate it from others.

These pathetic fantasies are somewhat hilarious, but are still completely irrelevant to the subject matter.
It's best that you move your contributions elsewhere (into a "Spam" section, for example) to prevent misinformation.


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## Nesi (May 9, 2021)

jerica said:


> I know you know what I mean. And few other sisters and brothers here, who chose PerC for the freedom it offers from traditional chains. And you know what, for that hidden unity, the us, for that Im happy.





jerica said:


> Im the first psychopath to have the guts to come out of the closet. And if none of the rest of the brothers and few sis`s here have courage then I shall answer from the behalf of all, as our time has finally come to leave the pretty masks elsewhere and FINALLY become ourselves.


Am I mistaken or was she saying that her psychopathic friends are on this site too?


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Nesi said:


> Am I mistaken or was she saying that her psychopathic friends are on this site too?


I wouldn't be surprised honestly. But let's not resort to questioning who's a psychopath on this site and who's not, at least not in this thread please. Discussion of said traits and tactics of mitigation is encouraged though. There seem to be devils advocates here who are willing to defend the pov of psychopaths, so it can end up being a very engaging discussion.


DOGSOUP said:


> In fiction maybe


Reality, is truly, stranger than fiction.


Allostasis said:


> These pathetic fantasies are somewhat hilarious, but are still completely irrelevant to the subject matter.


Perhaps she was joking, perhaps she was having a fit, perhaps she was or was not what she claimed to be, but again, let's not question people whether they're psychopaths or not. I think that either way she was discussing the intentions and motivations psychopaths might harbor. You're saying it's all fantasy, so I'm wondering if you've got some personal experiences to share of psychopaths? Or is your pov formed solely on research?

I'm wondering what @Squirt would make of it, see any similarities between what has commenced here, or are these presented motivations and mental settings all baseless when compared to what you saw in reality? Anybody else had an experience they want to share?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Fru2 


> let's not question people whether they're psychopaths or not. I think that either way she was discussing the intentions and motivations psychopaths might harbor. You're saying it's all fantasy, so I'm wondering if you've got some personal experiences to share of psychopaths? Or is your pov formed solely on research?


I am against unnecessary questioning, but it was important to call this out for the purpose of this thread. She wasn't _discussing _anything but just spreading her own delusions.

My pov is formed both on research and on personal experiences, but I think research should be the primary focus here due to how commonly misunderstood this topic is.
Without research, all these personal experiences are just random stories about "scary violent people" or whatever was the stereotype that person had in mind.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> My pov is formed both on research and on personal experiences, but I think research should be the primary focus here due to how commonly misunderstood this topic is.
> Without research, all these personal experiences are just random stories about "scary violent people" or whatever was the stereotype that person had in mind.


Would you like to briefly introduce the traits research represents us with, so we could see how it relates to our personal experiences? Research after all could have its limits, and I don't personally know the people conducting the research, so intentions could be different from what is presented. 

"scary violent people" is a way a child would describe psychopaths though, were it to be close to one at one time. Of course, this could be a generalization as you've mentioned two main types existing. Second one being far less violent in nature due to higher intelligence. But to me that would sinify an even bigger threat actually.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Fru2 
Sure. Here are some common traits that correlate strongly :

Ruthlessness
Fearlessness
Impulsivity
Self Confidence
Focus
Coolness under pressure
Mental toughness
Charm
Charisma

HF adds cognitive empathy, conscience, adds greater control over impulses.

These traits / behaviors is what seems very annoying/irritating and what they don't have themselves :
weakness, whining, attention seeking, attempts at manipulating in any way emotionally, neediness, ignorance, jealousy, anything related to ego-boosting.



> Second one being far less violent in nature due to higher intelligence. But to me that would sinify an even bigger threat actually.


It is very hard for neurotypical people to understand how it is possible to not have 'hot' empathy and not be criminal, yes.
They can't relate to this at all, even when they are being anti-social themselves.
As if this is the only thing that keeps us from eating each other. 

HF psychopaths develop their masks not to lure naive soft mortals to some sort of trap to drink their blood, but for just self-protection primarily, because people tend to do a lot of ridiculous things towards what they fear and can't comprehend. 

This isn't the condition that can be understood through emotions.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> This isn't the condition that can be understood through emotions.


That's good, because I don't really understand emotions, as a T-dom. That's not the process by which I make my judgments, or at least not consciously so.


> It is very hard for neurotypical people to understand how it is possible to not have 'hot' empathy and not be criminal, yes.
> They can't relate to this at all, even when they are being anti-social themselves.
> As if this is the only thing that keeps us from eating each other.


This is an interesting view, could you expand on it?

And lastly, all of these traits seem pretty positive and attractive to me on paper, but how come then that psychopathy creates so much ruin in its way? I could relate to most of these traits, yet I do have empathy, and can put myself in others shoes, perhaps this is what they're lacking?

Also what you're describing seems to be more related to personality traits, but as we know, psychopathy is a permanent abnormal neural condition, there are cognitive differences, their brain operates differently, could you introduce some of these differences?

EDIT: Actually, I relate to all of the traits you've mentioned. But so would a lot of T-doms I would imagine.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Fru2


> Also what you're describing seems to be more related to personality traits


You asked for traits and I thought this is what you meant. Of course it is more than that.



> but as we know, psychopathy is a permanent abnormal neural condition, there are cognitive differences, their brain operates differently, could you introduce some of these differences?


Indeed.
Briefly, they have reduced connections between the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC), the part of the brain responsible for sentiments such as empathy and guilt, and the amygdala, which mediates fear and anxiety.
Reduced level of connectivity often appears as a result of reduced sizes of the amygdala


> Individuals with psychopathy showed significant bilateral volume reductions in the amygdala compared with controls (left, 17.1%; right, 18.9%)





Localization of Deformations Within the Amygdala in Individuals With Psychopathy


.

Regardless of the causes behind reduced connectivity, that is the primary factor that causes such condition.



> yet I do have empathy, and can put myself in others shoes, perhaps this is what they're lacking?


They can take shoes of others just fine via cognitive/cold empathy. What they can't do is _feel_ what other person is feeling. There is no emotional response, conscious or not.



> but how come then that psychopathy creates so much ruin in its way?


I question the validity of this premise. Those who do sit behind the bars don't actually represent the essence of this disorder.
Otherwise we may just as well shift our gaze towards their neurotypical inmates and make dangerous (and just as incorrect) generalizations about the "human nature".



> EDIT: Actually, I relate to all of the traits you've mentioned. But so would a lot of T-doms I would imagine.


Yes, none of those traits are exclusive to the disorder and any person can relate to any of them.
But they can't relate to the complete absence of fear or stress in any imaginable situation, for example. Most people require some certain conditions and limitations to function that way, I think.

EDIT: missed this part


> This is an interesting view, could you expand on it?


In which direction specifically?


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> Well, no, they are not. It is a very different condition which overlaps only in several. superficial traits.


*False.* All psychopaths ARE narcissistic. However, not all narcissists are psychopaths.

0:27


----------



## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

I thought this video was interesting.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

jerica said:


> Fame is the ultimate high. Nothing will EVER compare with it. EVER.
> 
> And you know how delayed gratification and sufference are the ones bringing in the BRIGHTEST crown.
> 
> ...


The thing people forget about narcissism is that underneath all the grandiosity lies a deep, deep insecurity...the feeling that they are so small that they must inflate this way.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> *False.* All psychopaths ARE narcissistic. However, not all narcissists are psychopaths.
> 
> 0:27


No, I disagree. Psychopathy is unrelated to seeking validation, sense of gradiousnes. They can't have issues with self-esteem.


----------



## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

party is over boys


----------



## bifurcations (Jan 31, 2021)

I think this one is a much better source. I was really interested when I first found out that there's a connection between ADHD and anti-social personality disorder.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

bifurcations said:


> I thought this video was interesting.


Yes, that is how real hf psychopath probably would appear in real life.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> No, I disagree. Psychopathy is unrelated to seeking validation, sense of gradiousnes. They can't have issues with self-esteem.


You're disagreeing with someone who specializes in it and is a leading expert in the field? That's pretty arrogant.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> You're disagreeing with someone who specializes in it? That's pretty arrogant.


I can't care less who she is. If she makes a critically wrong statement that basically disagrees with the rest of the scientific community on this subject while not providing any logic to back it up, then I am not going to agree with it.
This condition makes it impossible for you to have insecurity of any kind, it is extremely different from narcissism, although they can have similar superficial patterns in personality.
Internally they work by very different principles.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Allostasis So let me get this straight. You're saying psychpaths can't feel anxiety or fear, which causes them to not have the need for social validation or seeking self-esteem, therefore they're not burdened by questions of morality, sympathy or empathy? What's their driver then? What makes them highly competitive?


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Fru2


> You're saying psychpaths can't feel anxiety or fear, which causes them to not have the need for social validation or seeking self-esteem, therefore they're not burdened by questions of morality, sympathy or empathy


Yes, they are not "burdened" by those questions emotionally, but that doesn't mean that they will definitely find them worthless. Morality and humanity can be developed cerebrally (cognitive empathy, again).


> What's their driver then? What makes them highly competitive?


Boredom replaces most of their negative emotions, so they double down on the positive ones which manifests as an increased need for mental stimulation/curiosity, search for challenges and generally doing something exciting (not to prove something to someone/feel good about themselves, but to make reward system going, like in a game).

As a consequence, they tend to focus more deeply in their professions/ambitions on average as there are less mental blocks holding them down.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> @Fru2
> 
> Yes, they are not "burdened" by those questions emotionally, but that doesn't mean that they will definitely find them worthless. Morality and humanity can be developed cerebrally (cognitive empathy, again).
> 
> ...


Cognitive empathy is but a simulation of the real deal, any trait for that matter, that they're missing, is a potential danger. You're speaking here of a motorbike with no brakes, that will drive full speed as long as there are no obstructions in the way and fuel is available. A psychopath will get away with *anything* they can, and won't feel sorry for the least of it. You get how dangerous this is, right?

Any transgression that on paper wouldn't be stated as a transgression is constantly declared open season in their minds.
The law of nature dictates a give and take. Guilt and remorse are emotions that are intrinsic to our survival as a species, because it signifies to the individual that they took something they cannot give back! That's what it's for!

Psychopaths are literally preditors who leech off humans while being disguised as a human. They're dangerous beyond belief, and here you're portraying them as if they don't have any weaknesses, as if they're heroes! Comparing their business of creating fatalities to a mere game! What the hell is wrong with people?!


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

SirCanSir said:


> party is over boys


Too bad if you ask me, she was one of the only ones that at least made some kind of sense around here. And I'm saying made *sense*, because that's what a lot of people here lack. Being stuck in their bubbles of comfort/logic/image. 
JFC.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

[QUOTE="bifurcations said:


> I thought this video was interesting.


That’s one boring psychopath right there.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Fru2 said:


> Cognitive empathy is but a simulation of the real deal, any trait for that matter, that they're missing, is a potential danger. You're speaking here of a motorbike with no brakes, that will drive full speed as long as there are no obstructions in the way and fuel is available. A psychopath will get away with *anything* they can, and won't feel sorry for the least of it. You get how dangerous this is, right?
> 
> Any transgression that on paper wouldn't be stated as a transgression is constantly declared open season in their minds.
> The law of nature dictates a give and take. Guilt and remorse are emotions that are intrinsic to our survival as a species, because it signifies to the individual that they took something they cannot give back! That's what it's for!
> ...


Well, this is basically what I meant before when I mentioned how challenging it is for neurotypicals to accept psychopaths as humans.
They assume that if there are no emotional breaks, then p-th can stab you in the back the moment you show weakness or do other ridiculous things.

Even for you, T-dom, it turned out to be hard enough so you returned back to your original perspective. Attributing all world evils to some "psychopaths".
As if only psychopaths can be greedy and do anti-human things.


> Cognitive empathy is but a simulation of the real deal


Only if by "real deal" you understand "actual feelings", which isn't a requirement for not being anti-social.



> as if they don't have any weaknesses, as if they're heroes


I am only suggesting that they are people, potentially boringly normal even. There is nothing so special about hot empathy.

Approach this issue from a different angle. Why, just why HF p-th would want to leech of humans or do something bad to them for no reason? What is the point?
Why is that supposed to be fun/reasonable/productive/stimulating?
Do you really dream of just ruining everything until the amygdala zaps your brain back into docility? I doubt that.


----------



## Nesi (May 9, 2021)

Allostasis said:


> There is nothing so special about hot empathy.


Hot empathy _feels_ special to me. I don't experience it that often. When I do, it is a surprising feeling. I feel connected to humanity, and like there was this thing that was missing in understanding the world that I suddenly remembered. I feel like I remembered what it truly means to be human.



Allostasis said:


> Approach this issue from a different angle. Why, just why HF p-th would want to leech of humans or do something bad to them for no reason? What is the point?
> Why is that supposed to be fun/reasonable/productive/stimulating?
> Do you really dream of just ruining everything until the amygdala zaps your brain back into docility? I doubt that.


Power is fun/stimulating, no?


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Actually you have part 2 where she talks about what she was like before she got some sort of treatment.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Nesi said:


> Hot empathy _feels_ special to me. I don't experience it that often. When I do, it is a surprising feeling. I feel connected to humanity, and like there was this thing that was missing in understanding the world that I suddenly remembered. I feel like I remembered what it truly means to be human.
> 
> 
> Power is fun/stimulating, no?


It can be, yes. But it doesn't have to mean overpowering humans into submission. Power can be found in lots of neutral things.


----------



## ThisNameWorks (Mar 11, 2017)

I’ve potentially had to deal with up to 13 psychopaths on a daily basis scattered throughout the last decade (2010s). No wonder I hate this place.

No wonder the first half of 2020 felt like a breeze.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> Any healthy empathetic person is just as capable of being violent, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry and etc.





Allostasis said:


> I question the validity of this premise. Those who do sit behind the bars don't actually represent the essence of this disorder.
> Otherwise we may just as well shift our gaze towards their neurotypical inmates and make dangerous (and just as incorrect) generalizations about the "human nature".


While these statements are true, I think they miss the point. You can't treat these disorders like they are benign when they are highly correlated with criminal behavior and criminal behavior cannot be "treated" the same way as for neurotypical individuals.



> Psychopathy and criminal behaviour
> There is a demonstrable link between psychopathy and criminal behaviour (Hare, 1996; Hart,
> 1998; Hemphill et al., 1998a, b). Indeed, Vaughn and Howard (2005) suggest that psychopathy
> provides an ideal conceptual framework for studying serious, violent, and chronic delinquency,
> ...





> Psychopathy is an important risk factor for recidivism and, more specifically, for violence. Indeed,
> Serin and Amos (1995) found that psychopathic offenders were about five times more likely than
> other offenders to violently recidivate within five years of release.
> Similarly, Hemphill et al. (1998a, b) found that rates of recidivism for psychopathic offenders were
> ...


(PDF) Psychopathy and Criminal Behaviour – A Psychosocial Research Perspective (researchgate.net)

Failure to address psychopathy leads to considerable risks that you do not see with neurotypical people.

I remember a case of a family whose six year old son was showing signs of a psychopathy, but he was too young for any specific diagnosis. They were at a loss for how to handle this child while he was being evaluated because the typical methods of correction didn't work at all with him. He was drowning cats in a pool, laughing about it, and suffered none when he was scolded. How would you deter this child from causing further harm? It's not an easy answer, but it is an important question. Unfortunately, "emotions" still factor in to the decisions that need to be made about how to proceed, and you can't escape that.

If someone has psychopathic tendencies but is capable of integrating into society or at least not causing harm, then that's great - and there was likely much work done to get there, whether we see it or not. And if there are people out there with these neurological markers that have no troubles and probably haven't even been diagnosed with anything, that's fine too... they aren't "disordered" then, are they?

However, it's important to note that psychopathy in a clinical sense is not some misunderstood quirkiness like you're making it out to be.



Allostasis said:


> @Fru2
> Sure. Here are some common traits that correlate strongly :
> 
> Ruthlessness
> ...


Your list is interesting because it selectively highlights traits with positive connotations, and then specifically disavows negative-sounding traits.

The reason I gave the anecdote that I did is because I find it troubling when psychopathic behavior is viewed as "sexy and cool" or desirable somehow, with this underlying morbid fascination, when in reality it is extremely unappealing and causes misery that is very _un_sexy.

Another reason I gave that anecdote was to illustrate just how messy it is to deal with someone who exhibits those traits in a dangerous situation. At the time, I believed as long as I understood enough, I could figure out what to do and fix whatever problem or disagreements arose... basically, always give the benefit of the doubt that _I'd just missed something_. I even tried talking things out with her just before the attack happened, because I knew she was upset with my mom. It was the first time I met someone whose view of the world was so foreign that I could find no bridge over to it; no anchor point of human connection. It can really mess with your sense of reality when that superficial mask finally comes down and you see what you're actually up against.

After the attack, I learned trying to understand a person is not always going to confer some advantage or protect you. Sometimes you just gotta gtfo.

This isn't "ooh psychos are scary" sensationalism meant to tear down decent people who aren't neurotypical. It's just what happened. It is what it is.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Squirt


> You can't treat these disorders like they are benign when they are highly correlated with criminal behavior and criminal behavior cannot be "treated" the same way as for neurotypical individuals.


I never said otherwise, I just focused on the defense more.



> Psychopathy and criminal behaviour...


I read this, yes.
Note that


> Psychopathy and criminality are not the same construct (Hart and Hare, 1997). *The affective, interpersonal, and behavioural characteristics that demarcate psychopathy do not necessarily involve or imply criminal behaviour* (Hare, 1991) and “*only a small minority of those who engage in criminal conduct are psychopaths*”


Small minority.
And then


> *psychopathic* *traits* (e.g. impulsivity, lack of empathy, and grandiosity) “both increase the likelihood that affected individuals will consider engaging in criminal conduct and decrease the likelihood that the decision to act will be inhibited”


Hare links not the psychopathy itself here, but traits, which can be manifested under variety of other disorders. It is important to not confused psychopathy and being psychopathic.
Psychopathy can be a predictor, especially in LF ones, but even Hare with somewhat outdated views notes that it is a small minority.

Why outdated? Briefly :





Psychopathy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org







> However, it's important to note that psychopathy in a clinical sense is not some misunderstood quirkiness like you're making it out to be.


I don't understand it as quirkiness, but as an alternative neural wiring that implies reduced activity in the amygdala. Apparently, you didn't read my next post.



> Unfortunately, "emotions" still factor in to the decisions that need to be made about how to proceed, and you can't escape that.


Not trying to. I did say that LF pths can be a huge problem to deal with. Or even HF ones.



> If someone has psychopathic tendencies but is capable of integrating into society or at least not causing harm, then that's great - and there was likely much work done to get there, whether we see it or not. And if there are people out there with these neurological markers that have no troubles and probably haven't even been diagnosed with anything, that's fine too... they aren't "disordered" then, are they?


They are high-functioning, which means that they are still disordered, but they managed to adjust for the neurotypical environment. Similar to how people with Asperger's can learn to adapt.
It does require work indeed.



> I find it troubling when psychopathic behavior is viewed as "sexy and cool" or desirable somehow, with this underlying morbid fascination, when in reality it is extremely unappealing and causes misery that is very _un_sexy.


Well, I am not here to "sell" it. I find it more boring than sexy, personally. It is not like you would regret transitioning into one though (because you won't be able to), but I think they are missing out potentially fun and enriching aspect in their lives, there is a reason why they feel so bored and always need something stimulating.

Also it is extremely harder to communicate efficiently without the hot empathy, they have to reverse engineer it through a lot of work and experiences. And learn to tolerate others.



> It was the first time I met someone whose view of the world was so foreign that I could find no bridge over to it; no anchor point of human connection. It can really mess with your sense of reality when that superficial mask finally comes down and you see what you're actually up against.


Yes, that is very common reaction. Unsettling, inhuman. People just can't tolerate this complete absence of ability to relate/connect even at some minimal level.
They are too used to those convenient empathetic cues inbuilt in reactions and take them for granted.

I don't invalidate your experience and my point was not that HF pths are some cute innocent superhuman angels, but that they can be decent people even though they have this "alien" attitude underneath. Not all of them will just kill you suddenly the moment you become useless or annoying. Everything depends on their experience, intelligence, impulse control. Which is something I consider more reliable/safe than "flimsy" emotions.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

ThisNameWorks said:


> I’ve potentially had to deal with up to 13 psychopaths on a daily basis scattered throughout the last decade (2010s). No wonder I hate this place.
> 
> No wonder the first half of 2020 felt like a breeze.


Unless you're interacting with about 1,300+ people that's unlikely. Can we please not downplay the term?


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> I read this, yes.
> Note that
> 
> Small minority.
> And then


Well, obviously all criminals aren't psychopaths. But that doesn't have any bearing on how often psychopaths engage in criminal activity, specifically violence, compared to the general population.

There are plenty of suspect and ever-changing diagnoses in the mental health care system. It's a blast.



Allostasis said:


> Hare links not the psychopathy itself here, but traits, which can be manifested under variety of other disorders. It is important to not confused psychopathy and being psychopathic.
> Psychopathy can be a predictor, especially in LF ones, but even Hare with somewhat outdated views notes that it is a small minority.
> 
> Why outdated? Briefly :
> ...


I considered psychopathy to be an umbrella term, not a disorder in itself. It wouldn't make sense otherwise...

The wikipedia article already summarizes:



> A _psychopath_ is a person suffering from a chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.


Pretty broad, but functionally useful. Like how if you want to identify something in the sky you could say you're pointing out "flying things" but then if someone shouted, "but that's not a pigeon!" then... well, sure, that's true... it's a helicopter. A flying thing.



Allostasis said:


> I don't understand it as quirkiness, but as an alternative neural wiring that implies reduced activity in the amygdala. Apparently, you didn't read my next post.


There were a lot of posts from you... and a lot of spam from someone to scroll through in order to get to them. 

I'm not sure which one you mean or why. You offered a neurological indicator but also many personality traits as well, like not prone to jealousy, needing stimulation/bored easily, etc. and I was referencing those.



Allostasis said:


> I never said otherwise, I just focused on the defense more.





Allostasis said:


> Not trying to. I did say that LF pths can be a huge problem to deal with. Or even HF ones.


I didn't see that anywhere. I checked again, in case it got lost... in the spam. 



Allostasis said:


> They are high-functioning, which means that they are still disordered, but they managed to adjust for the neurotypical environment. Similar to how people with Asperger's can learn to adapt.
> It does require work indeed.


We generally don't test people much unless they have a serious problem. It's hard to say what the real range of "normal" is out there. I'm sure I'm high-functioning _something,_ too.

I suppose I see it in terms of what requires action or special consideration, rather than whether a person's neurobiology can be considered typical or atypical.



Allostasis said:


> Well, I am not here to "sell" it. I find it more boring than sexy, personally. It is not like you would regret transitioning into one though (because you won't be able to), but I think they are missing out potentially fun and enriching aspect in their lives, there is a reason why they feel so bored and always need something stimulating.
> 
> Also it is extremely harder to communicate efficiently without the hot empathy, they have to reverse engineer it through a lot of work and experiences. And learn to tolerate others.


But that's kind of relatable. 



Allostasis said:


> Yes, that is very common reaction. Unsettling, inhuman. People just can't tolerate this complete absence of ability to relate/connect even at some minimal level.
> They are too used to those convenient empathetic cues inbuilt in reactions and take them for granted.


I don't take it for granted. It wasn't really empathetic cues I was after. I was trying to understand how she was thinking, so that I could figure out what her issue was and offer a solution to her satisfaction. She assigned motivations to others that were so off-base I didn't even know where to begin addressing it - the reasoning was just too absurd. Plus, I was a kid, so I was a bit out of my depth at conflict mediation with someone who likely had a severe mental health disorder.



Allostasis said:


> Everything depends on their experience, intelligence, impulse control. Which is something I consider more reliable/safe than "flimsy" emotions.


Sure. I have that prejudice against pretty much everyone, though.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

This topic is one of my #1 interests. Yet, as interesting as it is to me, I find the task of discussing it here to be daunting and arduous. It's very off-putting when only partially educated people debate a topic as though they know more than they do.

@Allostasis here is why you are partially wrong, partially right. Take it or leave it. I don't have the energy to engage.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I wish people in this thread were less "I know all about this" and more "I, too, am interested in learning about this," which is much closer to reality.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Squirt


> I considered psychopathy to be an umbrella term, not a disorder in itself.
> The wikipedia article already summarizes:
> A _psychopath_ is a person suffering from a chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior
> Pretty broad, but functionally useful.


This is the point of our disagreement I think, since I always focused on the neurological condition first and foremost and its implications.
And this is why I think it would be helpful to invent a better word to label it, so that condition won't be confused with syndrome.


----------



## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> @Squirt
> 
> This is the point of our disagreement I think, since I always focused on the neurological condition first and foremost and its implications.
> And this is why I think it would be helpful to invent a better word to label it, so that condition won't be confused with syndrome.


Totally agree with you there.

Thought of that briefly - how another term for what you’re describing would be appropriate because you’re talking about a specific set of conditions vs manifestation of specific consequences (under various conditions).

Has there been any proposal for that to your liking or is it really not invented, yet? It isn’t something I’ve investigated.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> This topic is one of my #1 interests. Yet, as interesting as it is to me, I find the task of discussing it here to be daunting and arduous. It's very off-putting when only partially educated people debate a topic as though they know more than they do.
> 
> @Allostasis here is why you are partially wrong, partially right. Take it or leave it. I don't have the energy to engage.


This is a good video and I agree with it.
I don't see how it contradicts specifically with what I said though, which is more important to me than how right/wrong I am.
Primary pthy is basically a requirement to be HF, if not the equivalent to it.



> I find the task of discussing it here to be daunting and arduous. It's very off-putting when only partially educated people debate a topic as though they know more than they do.


Well, I am going to take this personally, since, I think, I was active enough in this thread to be responsible to an extent.

So, I am genuinely curious about what made it look for you that way.
I invested a considerable amount of time at some point into researching this topic. I maybe am partially educated, there is a lot of what I don't know, but I do know something.
I can always provide my reasoning for anything I say or why I reject something if someone if patient/willing enough to listen to it.
I have no issues with admitting that I am wrong when that is indeed the case.

I disagree with experts only because I agree with other experts in the field that currently have superior arguments.
It would be extremely unproductive in the context of the discussion to blindly disregard everything I learned each time I encounter contradicting unverified perspectives from another expert.

I don't understand why it is perceived as arrogance or what specifically was off-putting.


You are not obliged to respond/engage, yeah.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Squirt said:


> Totally agree with you there.
> 
> Thought of that briefly - how another term for what you’re describing would be appropriate because you’re talking about a specific set of conditions vs manifestation of specific consequences (under various conditions).
> 
> Has there been any proposal for that to your liking or is it really not invented, yet? It isn’t something I’ve investigated.


I think it isn't invented yet. At least I never encountered proposals for it or even recognition of this problem, even though there was a study that confirmed labeling effects for it.


----------



## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

SirCanSir said:


> View attachment 880750
> 
> 
> party is over boys


In the words of a beloved AI robot...
"She'll be back"

Resurrected as a new member of PerC under a different name. - Probably looking this right now. 👀


----------



## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Allostasis said:


> I invested a considerable amount of time at some point into researching this topic. I maybe am partially educated, there is a lot of what I don't know, but I do know something.


What’s the source material that you’re using to back up your point?

I’m guessing “The _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders_ (DSM)”?


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Joe Black said:


> What’s the source material that you’re using to back up your point?


Which point are you referring to specifically?
Material consists mostly of studies with focus on the neurological conditions.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Joe Black said:


> What’s the source material that you’re using to back up your point?
> 
> I’m guessing “The _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders_ (DSM)”?


No, DSM even 5-th revision alone is insufficient to get understanding of what it is.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Allostasis said:


> No, DSM even 5-th revision alone is insufficient to get understanding of what it is.


What set of source materials, research and data are you using to back up your point that psychopaths are not narcissistic, or understanding psychopathy?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will when I am less busy / didn't just wake up.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

I am quite frustrated to not see consensus across the internet even on definitions of psychopathy vs sociopathy. Like it get switched around and confused a lot. Therefore I’m not sure of what I think I know is even supposed to be right. Also not on my highest priority yet still very curious about it.

I have encountered and met 2 men with narcissistic personality disorder however.

“The dark Triad” S.pathy P.pathy and NPD do share the common trait of “no empathy”. That much I’m sure about.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Joe Black said:


> In the words of a beloved AI robot...
> "She'll be back"
> 
> Resurrected as a new member of PerC under a different name. - Probably looking this right now. 👀


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Joe Black said:


> What set of source materials, research and data are you using to back up your point that psychopaths are not narcissistic, or understanding psychopathy?


You mostly rephrased the same question. Psychopathy is a complex topic.
I can't gather up every single study/material that I read realistically. It is a lot of work.
It is best that you review what was already said and make a more specific query. 



> psychopaths are not narcissistic


They can be narcissistic in the sense that they may overlap in traits that they tend to exhibit, like low empathy or "high self-esteem" (which works very differently in those two conditions even if look similar on the surface with NPD)
Try reading this for starters:








Fear and decision-making in narcissistic personality disorder—a link between psychoanalysis and neuroscience


Linking psychoanalytic studies with neuroscience has proven increasingly productive for identifying and understanding personality functioning. This article focuses on pathological narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), with the aim of ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

bifurcations said:


> I thought this video was interesting.





Allostasis said:


> Yes, that is how real hf psychopath probably would appear in real life.


Isn’t there a distinction between a sociopath and a psychopath?

Is this a distinction?


> Sociopaths have a conscience, albeit a weak one, and will often justify something they know to be wrong. By contrast, psychopaths will believe that their actions are justified and feel no remorse for any harm done.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Dalien said:


> Isn’t there a distinction between a sociopath and a psychopath?


Yes, they are different conditions neurologically.
Both can have cognitive empathy ("simulated" conscience) but only sociopaths have affective empathy, fear and such as they don't have differences in structure and function of amygdala. 



> Is this a distinction?


This statement is a bit incorrect


> By contrast, psychopaths will believe that their actions are justified and feel no remorse for any harm done.


They don't care how justified they are, there will be no remorse regardlessly. They don't need to rationalize things in order to control affectivity.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Allostasis said:


> You mostly rephrased the same question. Psychopathy is a complex topic.


Before I asked a general question then you asked me:


Allostasis said:


> Which point are you referring to specifically?


So I specified “the point that Psychopaths are not Narcissists”

Which you’ve answered:


Allostasis said:


> They can be narcissistic in the sense that they may overlap in traits that they tend to exhibit, like low empathy or "high self-esteem" (which works very differently in those two conditions even if look similar on the surface with NPD)
> Try reading this for starters:
> Fear and decision-making in narcissistic personality disorder—a link between psychoanalysis and neuroscience


 I thought there might have been a specific piece of data, research that covered the narcissistic traits.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Joe Black said:


> Before I asked a general question then you asked me:
> 
> 
> So I specified “the point that Psychopaths are not Narcissists”
> ...


Yes, but you also asked about understanding of psychopathy.


> I thought there might have been a specific piece of data, research that covered the narcissistic traits.


There are, since traits do overlap. Psychopaths can be narcissis*tic*, but they are not narcissis*ts*
Read this :








Parallel Syndromes: Two Dimensions of Narcissism and the Facets of Psychopathic Personality in Criminally-Involved Individuals


Little research has examined different dimensions of narcissism that may parallel psychopathy facets in criminally-involved individuals. The present study examined the pattern of relationships between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, assessed using ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> Yes, they are different conditions neurologically.
> Both can have cognitive empathy ("simulated" conscience) but only sociopaths have affective empathy, fear and such as they don't have differences in structure and function of amygdala.
> 
> 
> ...


Splitting hairs on this—“how justified“ or “justified”—why did you do this as rebuttal? 

Also, why do you say the sociopathic lady in the video is a high functioning psychopath, when she is a sociopath?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Dalien 


> Splitting hairs on this—“how justified“ or “justified”—why did you do this as rebuttal?


I didn't mean magnitude, but that justification isn't required. There is no special belief of any sort that disables remorse, which is what your statement potentially implied :


> psychopaths *will believe* that their *actions are justified* and feel no remorse for any harm done.


Underlined part isn't a prerequisite for absence of remorse nor it is some global trait that makes them think that they are right in everything they do.



> Also, why do you say the sociopathic lady in the video is a high functioning psychopath, when she is a sociopath?


Nowhere in the video it was stated that she is sociopath. Perhaps you misheard. Or I missed something?


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> @Dalien
> 
> I didn't mean magnitude, but that justification isn't required. There is no special belief of any sort that disables remorse, which is what your statement potentially implied :
> 
> ...


I see, thanks for your answers—all of them. I’m trying to understand more of the two. I may have further questions, fore I need to think more upon it. For what it is worth that wasn’t my statement, hence the quotes. I found it and wanted to question it.

Ahh, that was me going off with that she wrote a book on sociopath. My blunder because: It caught my attention—I really do want to know why a psychopath would write about sociopathy—interesting indeed. Would you have any thoughts on this?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Dalien said:


> For what it is worth that wasn’t my statement, hence the quotes. I found it and wanted to question it.


Yes, I just explained why I disagreed with it. "Your" is because you gave it, nothing personal.



> Ahh, that was me going off with that she wrote a book on sociopath. My blunder because: It caught my attention—I really do want to know why a psychopath would write about sociopathy—interesting indeed. Would you have any thoughts on this?


I see. I didn't know that. (i guess i skipped this part of video)
Psychopathy is 4+ times more rare condition than sociopathy. Maybe she wanted to appeal to a larger audience.
Or she was curious about differences in conditions and decided to express her conclusions through a book.


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## Vexus (Mar 23, 2020)

The original video basically categorizes everyone as a psychopath; I don't see the video as a viable source for understanding this information.

Intelligence commands choice. If you have learned how to save a life, you distinctly know how to not save a life by not applying those life-saving techniques you've learned. If someone has a bleeding wound, and you know you can apply pressure or a tourniquet to save the person's life, you also know that not applying those things will let the person die.

You then have a choice, where someone who does not know these things does not have that choice. Someone reactionary might hold the person until they pass. Another might call for help. But you, knowing how, means in that moment, you have a choice on how you proceed.

An increase in intelligence means an increase in the amount of choices you must make. You know how your actions will affect people, organizations, systems, environments and societies. You then can decide how to use these choices. You can seek out self-gain, self-pleasure, or any other amount of "self"-ish consequences of choice. Some make choices that cut against their own soul, and become lost in their selfish decision making, thinking there is no coming back from the "evil" choices they once made or are making. Others go so far in doing "good" that they outcast, ostracize, berate, attempt to control and restrict and even go so far as to execute life in the name of their "good" choices. As both directions reach their extremes, they circle back towards each other; in their extremes, it is difficult to perceive which is "good" and which is "evil."

Most religion gives you a selfish reason to make good choices; if you make good choices according to the religion, you gain eternal life. Other factors on how to make choices exist; don't want what you don't have, don't murder, don't abuse people for self-gain and so on.

Most non-religions (which become religions) give you a selfish reason to make good (by their perspective) choices; if you make money, take pride in your self, squash others as you rise, manipulate and control, increase the value of your self in all ways (physical appearance, objects owned, wealth obtained, power wielded) - if you do all these things, you gain a "good life" (often at the expense of others) and that, to this non-religion, is good and a selfish reason to be this way.

Psychopathy is choosing the selfish choice in a reactionary way without consideration for the consequences. Or, if consequences are considered, it's with shallow motivation and again, selfishly charged in that the immediate benefits outweigh the in-the-moment-impossible-to-happen-to-me consequences. The goal is to boost the ego, to feel better than another person, to step on another person in an attempt to climb up higher from the rising flood, escaping inevitable death only a few moments longer, or causing as much destruction in the short time in between.

I choose, in the limited time I have before death washes over me, to embrace my soulmate. To make the right choices, even though I know I have every capacity to choose any other way.

I think a lot of what goes "wrong" is the removal from a person's mind that they have a choice in everything they do - it's far easier to remain distracted, "having to" do things, "needing to" do things, over the reality that each and every action is a choice. When you're aware that everything you do is by choice and not by force, you're free, and can decide if you want to promote evil, or promote good.

My main angle on this topic is that intelligence necessitates the potential in each person for good and evil. An animal hunting its prey is not evil; and likewise is not conventionally intelligent. As we move away from this nature into the realm of conscious choice, we gain both capacities, good and evil, and we display them both depending on so many circumstances.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Vexus said:


> The original video basically categorizes everyone as a psychopath; I don't see the video as a viable source for understanding this information.
> 
> Intelligence commands choice. If you have learned how to save a life, you distinctly know how to not save a life by not applying those life-saving techniques you've learned. If someone has a bleeding wound, and you know you can apply pressure or a tourniquet to save the person's life, you also know that not applying those things will let the person die.
> 
> ...


I have 3 issues with this post.

1. What you are describing as a predetermined outcome of increased intelligence to be the awareness of how your actions affect others is false, because that is mostly connected with forms of empathy. I dont disagree that it correlates with intelligence but an intelligent person is not necessary to display that trait.

2.


Vexus said:


> Psychopathy is choosing the selfish choice in a reactionary way without consideration for the consequences.


Psychopathy is nothing as complicated as a choice, its inability to feel empathy or guilt and struggle with emotional responses and self control because of neurological disturbances. It is a condition. you can argue psychopaths are selfish, similarly to narcissists but its not that much within their control to act against those behaviors. If they do so, its to fit in socially and nothing more.

3. Psychopaths dont lack in intelligence, they lack in ethical boundaries that could potentially hold them back from harming others "out of selfishness". They can still recreate empathy cognitively to fit in, its a necessity for them to learn to understand how they affect others and what are the social boundaries that should limit their behavior, that is one of their reasons they are often very good at developing charming qualities and are good at manipulating others.

Overall, you seem to be discussing something separate from this topic, more among the lines about how intelligence can help with empathy, but not sure what point you are trying to make here about psychopaths using that argument.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

@Vexus btw what you described falls under 2 types of the 8 recognized ones (most likely there are more to be honest) of intelligence. Intrapersonal and Interpersonal. 










Thats where empathy or emotional intelligence should fall under.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Vexus said:


> The original video basically categorizes everyone as a psychopath; I don't see the video as a viable source for understanding this information.
> 
> Intelligence commands choice. If you have learned how to save a life, you distinctly know how to not save a life by not applying those life-saving techniques you've learned. If someone has a bleeding wound, and you know you can apply pressure or a tourniquet to save the person's life, you also know that not applying those things will let the person die.
> 
> ...


This isn't a place for your personal philosophies or soulmate fantasies.
Your post is irrelevant. 



> The goal is to boost the ego, to feel better than another person, to step on another person in an attempt to climb up higher from the rising flood, escaping inevitable death only a few moments longer, or causing as much destruction in the short time in between.


And illustrates complete lack of understanding the topic.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

Allostasis said:


> This is the point of our disagreement I think, since I always focused on the neurological condition first and foremost and its implications.
> And this is why I think it would be helpful to invent a better word to label it, so that condition won't be confused with syndrome.


Coming back to this... I find your point here to be the nexus of this thread, thus far.

This commentary argues that psychopathy, as a term, should be defined based on its social implications. Instead of a syndrome, it is a "compound variable":

Is Psychopathy a Syndrome? Commentary on Marcus, Fulton, and Edens



> The question of whether a condition is a syndrome bears potentially important implications for its etiology. If a condition is a combination or configuration of multiple traits that are largely uncorrelated, it is likely that this condition stems from more than one cause. The rare exceptions would be syndromes in which uncorrelated traits reflect a unitary etiology, as in Gerstmann’s syndrome. Most researchers have regarded psychopathy as a classical syndrome. For example, Hare (1993, p. 34) argued that “psychopathy is a syndrome—a cluster of related symptoms” (italics in original). Moreover, many researchers still rely exclusively on total psychopathy scores in their analyses (e.g., Williams, Nathanson, & Paulhus, 2010) under the assumption that whatever psychopathy is, it is a monolithic entity (at least at a higher-order level). Is this assumption warranted?





> On the other hand, the findings of Marcus et al. (this issue) may indicate that psychopathy is not a classical syndrome. Instead, psychopathy may be what industrial/organizational psychologists term a “compound variable”: a constellation of subtraits that are largely or entirely uncorrelated (Berry, Sackett, & Wiemann, 2007). Compound variables, also called emergent traits (Hough & Schneider, 1996), differ from “multifaceted variables,” the constituent features of which are subcomponents of a higher-order construct (Lilienfeld & Fowler, 2006; Smith, Fischer, & Fister, 2003).





> In this regard, an appealing hypothesis is that what has long been viewed by clinicians and researchers as psychopathy (and by laypersons as the con artist, a two-faced person, and a wolf in sheep’s clothing) comprises the configuration of boldness (e.g., superficial charm, lack of social anxiety) and either disinhibition, meanness, or both. From an interpersonal perspective, such individuals would be especially malignant and memorable because they are the quintessential social chameleons and social deceivers (Patrick, 2006). As a consequence, we learn to be on the lookout for them.
> 
> Putting it a bit differently, we can conceptualize psychopathy as what I term an “interpersonal impact condition.” Interpersonal impact conditions are not genuine syndromes because they consist of neither (a) covarying signs, symptoms, or both, nor (b) uncorrelated features that point to a latent unitary pathology. Instead, they are emergent conditions that create a distinctive social impression when several or all subcomponent traits are present, but not when only one such trait is present. This conceptualization might also be extended to several other heterogeneous personality disorders (e.g., borderline personality disorder). As Grove and Tellegen (1991) noted, at least some personality disorders may comprise interpersonally maladaptive interactions among constituent traits.


It might be valuable to view psychopathy this way because the term is already widespread and used colloquially. Do you (or anyone) have thoughts on this?

This study also brings up an interesting question about "neurological" psychopathy (I dunno, that's what I'll call it, lol):

Neural Correlates of Social Cooperation and Non-Cooperation as a Function of Psychopathy



> Our subjects activate DLPFC and ACC when choosing to defect, suggesting that cooperation may be their prepotent emotionally biased response, which they can override with effortful cognitive control. Further, the observed correlations with psychopathy within these regions suggest that subjects scoring higher in psychopathy are less conflicted when defecting and require less cognitive control to do so.





> If the emotional biases that motivate cooperation in low-psychopathy subjects are absent in high-psychopathy subjects, what is the specific rationale for cooperation among the latter? Analogous to the moral-reasoning study of Greene et al, one possibility is that high-psychopathy subjects exert effortful cognitive control (in DLPFC) to opt for a morally appropriate action, placing collective above individual interests by cooperating. An alternative possibility is that they reason their way to the conclusion that cooperation is in their best long-term self-interest.


Basically, this study puts out the idea that cognitive control which a neurotypical subject might use to act against the impulse to cooperate in order to serve a long-term interest, could similarly be employed by a (high functioning) psychopath to act against the impulse _not to_ cooperate to better serve their long-term interest. Seems like a good exercise to see how a high functioning psychopath would operate in society similarly to "regular folk"... just in a reverse process, and also lends to Allostasis' view about cognitive control being the "reliable" part of our humane behavior.

More potential evidence of the role of cognitive control for emotional regulation (an up-regulation rather than a down-regulation):

Capacity for upregulation of emotional processing in psychopathy: all you have to do is ask

If true, that is also where experience becomes extremely important.

Allostatis makes compelling arguments.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

Sorry for going off topic but I couldn't find the thread for things we couldn't post elsewhere.

If anything jerica said was real about her being a psychopath here, and I had to talk to her, there just one thing:
So what if you own the world? _HOW DO YOU OWN *DISORDER?*_





Psychopaths (want to) run the world? Well good luck with that.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

@Vexus what you wrote is very relevant to this thread: https://www.personalitycafe.com/threads/are-humans-inherently-evil.1358239/page-2
You're sharing a lot of my own thoughts on the topic, what you're describing is natural law which psychopaths don't have a gauge for. They don't have the internal feedback that'd indicate to them if they've done more bad than good, they're reliant on feedback from the external which causes them to harm others without having the ability to self reflect on what they've done wrong, because for them "wrong" only means "not being able to get away with it" or "Not being workable".

Interesting conversations going on, what I would like to hear is whether people think a psychopath could have the potential to do good, if they don't even have the ability to know what it truly is?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Squirt said:


> Coming back to this... I find your point here to be the nexus of this thread, thus far.
> 
> This commentary argues that psychopathy, as a term, should be defined based on its social implications. Instead of a syndrome, it is a "compound variable":
> 
> ...


I'll get back later once I will have time to read this.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Squirt said:


> Coming back to this... I find your point here to be the nexus of this thread, thus far.
> This commentary argues that psychopathy, as a term, should be defined based on its social implications. Instead of a syndrome, it is a "compound variable":
> It might be valuable to view psychopathy this way because the term is already widespread and used colloquially. Do you (or anyone) have thoughts on this?
> If true, that is also where experience becomes extremely important.


Allostasis does make some very good arguments. 

I think you've addressed a central point - Because psychopaths don't have an internal gauge, the responsibility for correction of the psychopath's natural deficiencies becomes external, meaning that it's up for the environment to correct the psychopath before any harm is(unwittingly) done by them - aka the "compound variable". 

It begs the question then why this need isn't communicated or tended for well in society? Perhaps the psychopath thinks that there is nothing wrong with them and is trying to get away from being labeled and thus have limited actions? Perhaps they don't want to be bent to the external rules as long as they don't have to, because that would be oh so boring?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Fru2 said:


> > You're sharing a lot of my own thoughts on the topic,
> > what I would like to hear


You illustrated that you like to hear only what confirms your already established perspective on this subject while filtering/rejecting everything that goes against it.
Something that I wouldn't expect to see from the extravert at such degree. Not questioning your type necessarily, just an observation.



> They don't have the internal feedback that'd indicate to them if they've done more bad than good


They do. It is called "self-reflection", "reasoning". They understand what things are bad and good cognitively. Not in terms of "doesn't work well with my selfish evil plans", but as a real moral categories.
Try reading Kant, who bases his whole morality system on a reason and the principle that emotions shouldn't motivate/drive person to make a moral decisions.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

The best way to detect a psychopath is to learn how to detect people that are *perfectly normal*, especially if it is a high functioning psychopath. Also, they can appear as *any* type of personality.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> The best way to detect a psychopath is to learn how to detect people that are *perfectly normal*, especially if it is a high functioning psychopath. Also, they can appear as *any* type of personality.


I’ve heard that psychopaths can be rather charming. E.g telling a Doctor something like “You’re not like the other doctors... You actually know how to do your job...”... Of course it doesn’t last. They’re not there just make you feel good about yourself nonstop. Flattering, building trust, emotionally manipulating, toying with you then then crushing you emotionally or physically or whatever.

Why? I dunno... But it reminds me of how I behave in a video game, which is to figure out the rules and system, test the boundaries of the game mechanics so I can take advantage, beat the game and get ahead. And I have no guilt gunning down innocent NPC's for fun. (depends on the game sometimes. But for argument sake GTA.) That’s about as much as I can empathise for an psycho. - Like playing in a sandbox open world game with 1 life.
(not saying this is how a psycho actually thinks or what their neurological processes are... I'm just Ne-ing)


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

fun fact about these 3 chatacters in GTA 5...








They represent the Id, Ego, and Super Ego


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> The best way to detect a psychopath is to learn how to detect people that are *perfectly normal*, especially if it is a high functioning psychopath. Also, they can appear as *any* type of personality.


Psychopaths are individuals with their own experiences and won't appear exactly the same.

Some subtle signs of HF ones :
1.very low neuroticism, so they can appear as too consistent in how chill / energetic / upbeat / non-complaining they are. React too smoothly to negative events.

2. understanding / focused when you talk to them. They are actively trying to understand you, pay attention to body/facial expressions.
Usually have a very good Idea of what to say, how to comfort you, what is important to you, how you will react, what are your insecurities etc.
They spend a lot of time intellectualizing emotions of others and causes behind them, because this is the only way by which they can become empathetic.

3. Immunity to anxiety/stress especially when normal person is supposed to experience it may manifest as too much intensity and/or FD trait generally (Fearless dominance).



> A certain amount of boldness, fearlessness, confidence, and social dominance is likely to engender resilience in the face of adversity and success in a number of important life domains; however, an overabundance of such traits is likely to be expressed as narcissism, arrogance, recklessness, and risk-taking . . . (p. 88)





> fearless dominance . . . gives rise to the full clinical picture of psychopathy in the presence of elevated disinhibition, meanness, or both . . . there is no requirement that PPI-FD by itself should be associated with maladaptive functioning. (p. 332)


source : SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Fun fact : some psychopaths actually like cats. No, not as a fun torture material or an asset valuable for their world domination goals, but almost in a boring neurotypical fashion.
They can genuinely respect and admire things.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

@Allostasis I frequently hear this conflicting thing on the internet about psychopath vs sociopaths... that one of them is better at making long term goals, and can hold a job, appears stable where as the other one struggles to hold a job and not great with long term goals, gets board and requires constant stimulation, more erratic?

Which one is the psychopathic trait and which is the sociopathic trait? Or is this a false idea altogether? Are these traits more to do with cognitive functions and personality type?
E.g an ESTP Psychopath/sociopath vs INTJ Psychopath/sociopath

Also is an INFP psychopath theoretically possible? Or are psychopaths completely something outside the 16 type or jungian typology?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I have long had suspicions that my father is an actual psychopath or sociopath.

He has *grandiosity* and narcissism, but not shame. Things he would feel shame about if he cared about how he's viewed, he often actually gloats about and uses to bolster his image. He doesn't understand sociopathy well, but he claims to be a high-functioning sociopath.

He has anger issues, but such a *low stress response* that paramedics and such have commented on it on several occasions.

In his childhood he would've qualified for *Conduct Disorder*.

He lives a *parasitic lifestyle*--*manipulating people* and then leeching on the financial and material resources of them.

In social settings he is incredibly *superficially charming* and charismatic. I'm not exaggerating when I say I've watched him go from aggressive and emotionally abusive to smiling, joking, and lighting up the entire room with laughter like the flip of a switch. His charm is not as simple as flattering doctors or something, it's rather nuanced. It's what most people would call the gift of gab, except it's beyond what I've ever seen in anyone else with the gift of gab before. It was part of what made certain events during the legal process somewhat more challenging when he was being charged with domestic violence, etc. when my mother divorced him. He gained favor with a few of the authorities through his charm. I don't like complimenting him, but I have to give the guy credit. When he walked into a room it was often as if he turned the room into a stage, turning the crowd into his audience. Yet...he constantly dreamt of living in isolation, away from everyone, surrounded by layers of security on some mountain.

He had *issues with grandiosity, authority, power, dominance, and control*--_so much that it interfered with his daily life by getting him fired from jobs._

He had *recurring problems with the law*, both in childhood and adulthood. He lived in a generation that was able to outrun the police with far greater ease and would always laugh and tell stories about the tricks he used to pull to get away.

He saw his children as extensions of himself.




There'd be so much more to cover that I could write an entire book about it. He checks the box of each trait I read about and I could elaborate in full detail the examples and dynamics behind each one. The lists make sense to me, in an "oh my god, it's finally put into clear words" kind of way.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Joe Black said:


> @Allostasis I frequently hear this conflicting thing on the internet about psychopath vs sociopaths... that one of them is better at making long term goals, and can hold a job, appears stable where as the other one struggles to hold a job and not great with long term goals, gets board and requires constant stimulation, more erratic?


Neither of them is strictly better at something than the other by default if we are considering HF versions.

That being said, sociopaths/ASPD, due to being much closer to neurotypicals, are still capable of experiencing depression, anxiety, insecurity, fear, hot empathy etc.
More negative factors => more things to control => higher chance at failing in something



> Which one is the psychopathic trait and which is the sociopathic trait


A lot of them overlap, like charisma, FD, ruthlessness, bonding issues and so on.



> Are these traits more to do with cognitive functions and personality type?
> Also is an INFP psychopath theoretically possible? Or are psychopaths completely something outside the 16 type or jungian typology?


I don't think it is possible for a psychopath to have F in any jungian way, at least as one of his first 2 functions, while sociopaths should be capable of that.




Hexcoder said:


> I have long had suspicions that my father is an actual psychopath or sociopath.
> 
> He has *grandiosity* and narcissism, but not shame. Things he would feel shame about if he cared about how he's viewed, he often actually gloats about and uses to bolster his image. He doesn't understand sociopathy well, but he claims to be a high-functioning sociopath.
> 
> ...


What is your conclusion about his diagnosis? NPD?


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Allostasis said:


> Some subtle signs of HF ones :
> 1.very low neuroticism, so they can appear as too consistent in how chill / energetic / upbeat / non-complaining they are. *React too smoothly to negative events.*
> 
> 2. understanding / focused when you talk to them. They are actively trying to understand you, pay attention to body/facial expressions.
> ...


Starting to think I knew someone like this. the bolded freaked me out at first, but I was also super appreciative about it too.


Allostasis said:


> Fun fact : some psychopaths actually like cats. No, not as a fun torture material or an asset valuable for their world domination goals, but almost in a boring neurotypical fashion.
> They can genuinely respect and admire things.


ah well, that confirms it then


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> What is your conclusion about his diagnosis? NPD?


My mother is a clear cut vulnerable narcissist (aka covert narcissist), but my father is far more complex and difficult for me to pin down. At this point I lack a clear conclusion. He may be a malignant narcissist, but in several ways he meets the criteria for ASPD better. He actually ticks every single box in the DSM-5 for ASPD.


----------



## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

Dalien said:


> Isn’t there a distinction between a sociopath and a psychopath?
> 
> Is this a distinction?


I heard once that sociopaths were created by their social environment which was different from the psychopath.
Also I have mostly seen the sociopath diax been used on young people.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Electra said:


> I heard once that sociopaths were created by their social environment which was different from the psychopath.
> Also I have mostly seen the sociopath diax been used on young people.


Sociopathy is epigenetic (environmental with some genetic factor), psychopathy is strictly genetic.


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> My mother is a clear cut vulnerable narcissist (aka covert narcissist), but my father is far more complex and difficult for me to pin down. At this point I lack a clear conclusion. He may be a malignant narcissist, but in several ways he meets the criteria for ASPD better. He actually ticks every single box in the DSM-5 for ASPD.


In what ways specifically ASPD suits him better than malignant narcissism?


----------



## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

Hexcoder said:


> My mother is a clear cut vulnerable narcissist (aka covert narcissist), but my father is far more complex and difficult for me to pin down. At this point I lack a clear conclusion. He may be a malignant narcissist, but in several ways he meets the criteria for ASPD better. He actually ticks every single box in the DSM-5 for ASPD.


Damn... both parents...
Feel sorry for you man!


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Joe Black said:


> Damn... both parents...
> Feel sorry for you man!


Ehh, I turned out okay after putting in hard work to repair the damages they caused. I'm basically the only healthy one in my immediate family though.

It happens. Narcissistic people actually tend to attract each other at first (partly due to the grandiosity: they feed the image they want, etc.). After a while, it becomes a power struggle for dominance. My entire family (besides my brother and I) are also religious, and my parents were partially led together by some religious delusion type shit from my dad's mom. She thinks she is a prophet. My brother and I grew up being told we were "special" and "chosen" and stuff as well. She also has some sort of issue, I don't know...all I know with her is that she's a control freak with a mean streak to her and she's emotionally abusive. My father's father and stepfather were also both abusive. My mother's father was also abusive (sexually). (My mother's mother is probably her biggest enabler, in part due to guilt about this.) My brother carries on the abusiveness (to his animals, in his relationships, and was also abusive toward me when I was a kid). So yeah, it was actually more than just my two parents, it was also my brother. In a family of 4 (including me) I had it from all 3 of the others. On top of it, I was isolated to that, so it was the only socialization I really knew.

Oddly enough, all of this made me healthier than some of my more normal family members in some ways--only after I put in the work to grow, however. What I mean is that my psychological recognition has a certain clarity to it, my psychological defenses have a certain deliberateness to them, as opposed to simply being a product of my upbringing. My experiences are so vast that the psychological knowledge I have is accompanied by firsthand experiences--which is both good and bad, as it can create a little bit of emotional bias in me as well as providing me with an in-depth understanding that's based on real examples rather than hollywood types of rumors. There are things I think I am only able to understand because of the fact that I have firsthand experience with the dynamics, while if I hadn't been through what I have, I'd probably have a much harder time wrapping my head around certain psychological concepts. So in that sense, it actually gave me somewhat of an advantage. I'm apparently the one who breaks the cycle after generations of abusive family lineage. Let's just say I'm thankful for the psychology field. I kind of feel like a miracle child. Seriously, I may write a book someday.

But yeah, I don't know...I just hope to maybe do some good with the life I've been given. It has come with both the good and the bad, and the bad has also come with some good...things that can be used for the good of other people in the world as long as I've got my own head straight.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

All my grandfathers also had something antisocial going while being able to hide that.
One of them was occasionally abusive (but without anger/rage/clear reason), while the other was manipulative, selfish, power-hungry while very charming and funny on the public (but he wasn't always like that)


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> In what ways specifically ASPD suits him better than malignant narcissism?


It's mostly just the fact that NPD doesn't exactly cover as many of his behaviors as ASPD.



*ASPD*

A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:


Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, such as performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for pleasure or personal profit.
Impulsivity or failure to plan.
Irritability and aggressiveness, often with physical fights or assaults.
Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others.
Consistent irresponsibility, failure to sustain consistent work behavior, or honor monetary obligations.
Lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person.

The individual is at least age 18 years.
Evidence of conduct disorder typically with onset before age 15 years.
The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during schizophrenia or bipolar disorder."

The one with the strikethrough--that is actually something he constantly preached against. It might have been something he learned through life to fight or counter? He always preached things like, "a failure to plan is a plan for failure," and "delayed gratification is not the same thing as no gratification." It's very possible he was speaking from experiences / learned from some mistakes. He still could be very impulsive at times when it came to his anger, however. Major, major anger issues...it was like walking through a mine field. One that had a ton of mines and was impossible to get through safely.


*NPD*

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and with lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood, as indicated by at least five of the following:


Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements, expects to be recognized as superior without actually completing the achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, brilliance, beauty, or perfect love.
Believes that they are "special" and can only be understood by or should only associate with other special people (or institutions).
Requires excessive admiration.
Has a sense of entitlement, such as an unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment or compliance with his or her expectations.
Is exploitative and takes advantage of others to achieve their own ends.
Lacks empathy and is unwilling to identify with the needs of others.
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of them.
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes


My father has, very clearly, many of the traits involved with ASPD that are not covered by NPD. He's highly aggressive, for example; physically violent, death threats, gun to WOMENS' heads (he is a misogynist), etc. His aggression overshadows any sort of need for shemelessness. For example, I have personally witnessed him do things such as walking up to some staff members of an auto shop (where he was getting his car worked on) and in a very personal "in your face" kind of way gloating about his sadistic nature (basically all but threatening these guys, but deliberately intimidating them). While looking in the eyes of one of them and standing sort of close / in his face, he talked about how he can look into the eyes of someone and push a pole in slowly and enjoy it, or something along those lines. I can't remember his exact phrasing, but basically, he goes around being aggressive and intimidating to even _random_ people, rather than trying to have this image of being such a great guy or something. That is something you'd expect for most people to feel shame about, as they don't want to appear to be a "bad" guy. Things like going to jail, also, you'd think someone would have some shame about that; my father was proud of it and exaggerated about his time in jail, making statements like "I have no problem going _*back*_ to prison." He would emphasize that word "back," basically using the time he'd spent in JAIL (despite him saying prison) to make him come off as more intimidating, more threatening.

He did not have a need for excessive admiration in the same ways as a narcissist. If anything, he would actually see the people who admired him too much as though they were weak. Sometimes he would talk about women trying to "stroke his ego" and be like "please, as if I need that / fall for that."

NPD and ASPD are comorbid. My guess is that the reason it's so hard to tell with him is that he probably has both.

The one thing that stands out to me is that there have been some times when he at least appeared to demonstrate remorse or guilt--not shame, but guilt for his actions. For example, a time when he was being abusive and I was just standing there and crying my eyes out, doing nothing to retaliate, etc.; he stopped in the middle of it and started apologizing to me with tears in his eyes. (Not that he ever changed at all.) However, he's good at putting on crocodile tears to manipulate, so I'm not sure how genuine it was or whether to believe it was authentic. Maybe he thought I was at risk of coming loose from his control or something, I don't know. That's another reason he's so complex to me, I can't tell whether certain instances of his emotional displays were authentic or not. I just know he has used emotions to manipulate before, such as times when he cried on demand as a part of gaslighting / shifting the blame to me before, to make me feel guilty. He's good at feigning emotions. The guy could've been a damn actor. I know this because I know for a fact certain times when he was lying based on the facts, but he gave off no cues that he was being dishonest--and normally I'm someone who can spot faking from miles away, to the point where it ruins most movies and shows for me.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Hexcoder said:


> My father has, very clearly, many of the traits involved with ASPD that are not covered by NPD.
> 
> He's highly aggressive, for example
> 
> He did not have a need for excessive admiration in the same ways as a narcissist.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

I've come across many resources that talk about psychopaths seeming _more_ genuine to people.









Psychopaths mimic emotions very accurately: Brock study


Angela Book, study author.




brocku.ca













Psychopaths are better at appearing genuine when they pretend to be fearful or remorseful


“The surface of the psychopath… shows up as equal to or better than normal and gives no hint at all of a disorder within. Nothing about him suggests ...



www.psypost.org


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> You illustrated that you like to hear only what confirms your already established perspective on this subject while filtering/rejecting everything that goes against it.
> Something that I wouldn't expect to see from the extravert at such degree. Not questioning your type necessarily, just an observation.


I'm always open to listen, but there definitely are established logical standpoints for me to judge based off.
Not having that will be more than naivete.


> They do. It is called "self-reflection", "reasoning". They understand what things are bad and good cognitively. Not in terms of "doesn't work well with my selfish evil plans", but as a real moral categories.
> Try reading Kant, who bases his whole morality system on a reason and the principle that emotions shouldn't motivate/drive person to make a moral decisions.


Kant will only be relevant in as far as psychopaths who use his works to apply themselves better in society.
Simulation is possible, but it stays a _simulation_. Never the real deal.
They can understand, but it doesn't mean much, it's only a tool.

These are just my 2 cents which I'm not willing to trade.
I do find the discussion very interesting nontheless.

@Hexcoder Thanks for sharing! Well done on snapping out of that deadly cycle, it takes some fortitude and consciousness.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Does this seem right?
Seems more simplified here




> What’s the Difference Between a Psychopath and a Sociopath? And How Do Both Differ from Narcissists?
> 
> WRITTEN BY
> 
> ...











What’s the Difference Between a Psychopath and a Sociopath? And How Do Both Differ from Narcissists?


Know a mentally disturbed person who doesn’t think much of others? Make sure you apply the right epithet.



www.britannica.com


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Squirt


> It might be valuable to view psychopathy this way because the term is already widespread and used colloquially. Do you (or anyone) have thoughts on this?


This seemingly makes sense and fits most to how this term is used already.
But then it is somewhat unclear on how it will be different from just sociopathy or PPI, since the neurological aspect that made it so unique was cut away.
The matter seems needlessly obscured by these endless word games. Inelegant design.



> Neural Correlates of Social Cooperation and Non-Cooperation as a Function of Psychopathy


Thanks, interesting study.


> If the emotional biases that motivate cooperation in low-psychopathy subjects are absent in high-psychopathy subjects, what is the specific rationale for cooperation among the latter? Analogous to the moral-reasoning study of Greene et al, one possibility is that high-psychopathy subjects exert effortful cognitive control (in DLPFC) to opt for a morally appropriate action, placing collective above individual interests by cooperating. An alternative possibility is that they reason their way to the conclusion that cooperation is in their best long-term self-interest.





> Basically, this study puts out the idea that cognitive control which a neurotypical subject might use to act against the impulse to cooperate in order to serve a long-term interest, could similarly be employed by a (high functioning) psychopath to act against the impulse _not to_ cooperate to better serve their long-term interest. Seems like a good exercise to see how a high functioning psychopath would operate in society similarly to "regular folk"... just in a reverse process, and also lends to Allostasis' view about cognitive control being the "reliable" part of our humane behavior.


Yes, precisely my point.
Cooperation with humans is an optimal choice in a great many settings.
Emotional bias is just a convenient shortcut that makes reasoning for that purpose redundant. But by its design, it is also less precise/reliable.



> Capacity for upregulation of emotional processing in psychopathy: all you have to do is ask


Hmm.
I am not convinced that it is pure psychopathy whose emotional capacity was investigated here.
It is not possible to readjust neural structure on a whim, it can't work that way.
The study is more in line with how sociopathy works I think.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Another thing that I forgot to mention about psychopaths is that high functioning psychopaths can be some of the most friendliest people that you can meet. I'm not just talking about bold extraverted friendliness, but also a measured introverted friendliness.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Allostasis said:


> Psychopaths are individuals with their own experiences and won't appear exactly the same.


I wasn't clear with my first post. When I said that psychopaths are perfectly normal I didn't mean that they are all the same. I meant that they play their role perfectly normally. An extraverted life of the party psychopath, an enlightened introvert psychopath, an energetic cheerful psychopath, an intellectual detached psychopath, etc. No matter what "role" they have, they will play it well and come off as looking like a normal example of that kind of person. Sometimes the only way you can detect them is because they seem to good to be true.



Allostasis said:


> Some subtle signs of HF ones :
> 1.very low neuroticism, so they can appear as too consistent in how chill / energetic / upbeat / non-complaining they are. React too smoothly to negative events.
> 
> 2. understanding / focused when you talk to them. They are actively trying to understand you, pay attention to body/facial expressions.
> ...




Also, about the low neuroticism aspect of high functioning psychopaths, while psychopaths don't experience fear or anxiety, I've read online that they can experience depression from a few different sources. 

And what you mentioned in point number 2 is correct. It's why psychopaths make such good psychotherapists. Psychopaths are detached observers of humans, and probably also of life, which makes them great at reading people. Many psychopaths can be found in the field of psychology.


----------



## INForJoking (Nov 23, 2015)

Here’s a documentary that a friend on PersC brought to my attention. I haven’t watched it, recently, but I think I remember it for a reason. I’m sorry it’s long and has a bunch of ads… 😓






I have filled a notebook, ( somewhere ) with ways to detect and repel such people. ( If I can locate it, I will add more information.) Also, knowledge with being a Graphologist has been a way to arm myself with other subtle ways to detect certain individuals. I often Have found that the best offense is an even stronger defense when it comes to people of this variety. Honestly, though, I think I went into educating myself with psychopaths because I’m fairly certain that my older sister is in fact one... 

Thank you, @Fru2 for this thread. Hopefully, people can use the information shared! 🙂


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> I wasn't clear with my first post. When I said that psychopaths are perfectly normal I didn't mean that they are all the same. I meant that they play their role perfectly normally. An extraverted life of the party psychopath, an enlightened introvert psychopath, an energetic cheerful psychopath, an intellectual detached psychopath, etc. No matter what "role" they have, they will play it well and come off as looking like a normal example of that kind of person. Sometimes the only way you can detect them is because they seem to good to be true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree with everything except the depression.
It is impossible to experience it by the same reason why it's impossible to feel fear.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Allostasis said:


> Agree with everything except the depression.
> It is impossible to experience it by the same reason why it's impossible to feel fear.


But depression and sadness is different from fear, so why would the supposed inability to experience both have the same reason?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> But depression and sadness is different from fear, so why would the supposed inability to experience both have the same reason?


Because they both come from the amygdala, which is responsible for processing negative emotions and empathy.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Allostasis said:


> Because they both come from the amygdala, which is responsible for processing negative emotions and empathy.


Depression, according to google, involves the amygdala, hippocampus, and the dorsomedial thalamus.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Allostasis said:


> Because they both come from the amygdala, which is responsible for processing negative emotions and empathy.


Here is a link that describes 10 types of psychopaths, one of which is the depressive psychopath.

The 10 Types of Psychopaths According to Kurt Schneider - Exploring your mind

Here is a link that describes what type of psychopaths can get depression and how they get depression.

Do psychopaths get clinical depression? If they don’t, could researchers study what makes them immune and use their findings to develop new treatments? - Quora


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> Here is a link that describes 10 types of psychopaths, one of which is the depressive psychopath.
> 
> The 10 Types of Psychopaths According to Kurt Schneider - Exploring your mind
> 
> ...


The first link is laughably wrong as it misunderstands what psychopathy is at the root.


> *It’s based on the idea that a psychopath is someone who ambiguously deviates from normative behavior.*


No, it is not what it is. There is no such thing as "insecure sensitive or weak-willed psychopath"

The second link in many of its responses confuses psychopathy with ASPD and base on an outdated checklist from R.D. Hare.
Scoring high in this test doesn't mean that you have this specific pattern of neural wiring.

I will try to pull relevant studies and get back to you.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

INForJoking said:


> Here’s a documentary that a friend on PersC brought to my attention. I haven’t watched it, recently, but I think I remember it for a reason. I’m sorry it’s long and has a bunch of ads… 😓
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, that video features Sam Vaknin. He is a psychology professor and a narcissist. I like his work.


----------



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> confuses psychopathy with ASPD


Why do you think these two are different?


----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Kazuma Ikezawa said:


> Here is a link that describes 10 types of psychopaths, one of which is the depressive psychopath.
> 
> The 10 Types of Psychopaths According to Kurt Schneider - Exploring your mind
> 
> ...











(PDF) Psychopathy and lifetime experiences of depression


PDF | Previous studies have investigated an association between psychopathy and depression as part of the broader study of co-morbidity between... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net




Inverse correlation between PCL-R scores and MDD. Although pure psychopaths are just a subset of those who tested highly in PCL-R.



https://digitalcommons.acu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1266&context=etd


A suggestion that psychopathy(primary) and depression may be mutually exclusive









Depression and the brain


A summary of the underlying biology of depression.




qbi.uq.edu.au




.
A high-level overview of the mechanism behind depression. Not exactly a study though.









Where in the Brain Is Depression?


Major Depressive Disorder is a serious medical illness which is responsible for considerable morbidity and disability. Despite decades of research, the neural basis for depression is still incompletely understood. In this review, evidence from neuroimaging, ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




Study of regions involved in depression in general






NEJM Journal Watch: Summaries of and commentary on original medical and scientific articles from key medical journals


NEJM Journal Watch reviews over 250 scientific and medical journals to present important clinical research findings and insightful commentary




www.jwatch.org






> depressed participants had significantly increased left amygdala activation on fMRI











A functional anatomical study of unipolar depression


The functional neuroanatomy of unipolar major depression was investigated using positron emission tomography to measure differences in regional cerebral blood flow (BF). A relatively homogeneous subject group was obtained using criteria for familial pure depressive disease (FPDD), which are...




www.jneurosci.org






> Based upon the connectivity between these portions of the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala and evidence that the amygdala is involved in emotional modulation, activity was measured in the left amygdala and found to be significantly increased in the depressed group


Same thing.






NYAS Publications







nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com




Once again, the connection between the severity of depression and metabolism in the amygdala 









Amygdalar interhemispheric functional connectivity differs between the non-depressed and depressed human brain


The amygdalae are important, if not critical, brain regions for many affective, attentional and memorial processes, and dysfunction of the amygdalae h…




www.sciencedirect.com






> We found modest evidence of amygdalar interhemispheric functional connectivity in the non-depressed brain, whereas there was strong evidence of functional connectivity in the depressed brain.











A Molecular Signature of Depression in the Amygdala


Objective: Major depressive disorder is a heterogeneous illness with a mostly uncharacterized pathology. Recent gene array attempts to identify the molecular underpinnings of the illness in human postmortem subjects have not yielded a consensus. The authors hypothesized that controlling several...




ajp.psychiatryonline.org




Role of amygdala pathologies in major depression









Amygdala Volume Marks the Acute State in the Early Course of Depression


The amygdala and hippocampus play a key role in the neural circuitry mediating depression. It remains unclear how much structural and functional chang…




www.sciencedirect.com






> The amygdala enlargement correlated positively with the severity of depressive state but with no other clinical or neuropsychological variable.



Sorry, I am not very satisfied with the material that I found, to be honest.
It is hard to find conclusive and unambiguous proof, given how messy everything is and how many times understanding of psychopathy was changed.
In short, due to the perpetually "chill" amygdala and inability to process stress, anxiety and etc, depression simply just can't occur.
And even though the amygdala isn't the only region involved in depression, it plays an extremely significant role in starting it.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> Why do you think these two are different?


Because they have different neurological preconditions.
Pure psychopathy implies substantially different neural wiring in several key regions that are present at birth, while ASPD has different genetic factor + environmental conditions.
Someone with ASPD can feel depression, anxiety, fear, suicidal thoughts, stress etc, while primary/pure psychopath can't.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Dalien said:


> Does this seem right?
> Seems more simplified here
> 
> 
> ...





> *psychopaths are born, and sociopaths are made.*


This is correct, yes.


> *which the psychopath cynically exploits or manipulates to benefit himself; *


Not necessarily


> So*ciopaths are also usually incapable of anything even remotely resembling a normal work or family life, and, in comparison to psychopaths, they are exceptionally impulsive and erratic and more prone to rage or violent outbursts. Accordingly, their criminal activities tend to be spur-of-the-moment rather than carefully premeditated.*


Yes, although there are HF sociopaths as well.
Otherwise, page seems fine.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

> which the psychopath cynically exploits or manipulates to benefit himself;





Allostasis said:


> not necessarily


Would you explain further?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> Why do you think these two are different?


Btw, another argument but from a more empirical angle; it is possible to not have ASPD while scoring highly on PCL-R :


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Dalien said:


> Would you explain further?





> which the psychopath cynically exploits or manipulates to benefit himself;


Phrase insinuates that he will destructively or parasitically exploit things for his benefit, never doing anything good, which isn't always the case.


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## impulsenine (Oct 18, 2020)

1% of the planet's population is psychopathic.
A man who makes contact with 500 people a day, how many psychopaths does he meet in 30 days? 

Let's put psychopaths at work.


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## Kazuma Ikezawa (Oct 21, 2011)

Allostasis said:


> (PDF) Psychopathy and lifetime experiences of depression
> 
> 
> PDF | Previous studies have investigated an association between psychopathy and depression as part of the broader study of co-morbidity between... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
> ...


It's okay that you didnt find material that satisfies you. I've actually been busy lately, so I may or may not get to reading those studies later. Psychopathy is an esoteric topic that is hard to truly fully understand. Even the psychopathy expert Robert Hare said that sometimes even he couldn't detect some people that were psychopaths. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some conspiracy to keep true information about the nature high functioning psychopaths partially obscured, lol. It makes sense that it would be hard to find reliable information on the subject.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> Fun fact : some psychopaths actually like cats. No, not as a fun torture material or an asset valuable for their world domination goals, but almost in a boring neurotypical fashion.
> They can genuinely respect and admire things.


I mean...cats are basically psychopaths themselves, killing all sorts of stuff just for the fun / to toy with things...so, seems legit.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> I mean...cats are basically psychopaths themselves, killing all sorts of stuff just for the fun / to toy with things...so, seems legit.


Cats are capable of bonding though, as I understand.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> Cats are capable of bonding though, as I understand.


Very much so. Strongly. I've seen plenty of cases where cats became depressed, sometimes to the point of refusing to eat, after losing their owner. It was merely a joke.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> What is your conclusion about his diagnosis? NPD?


Btw, just to clarify--I don't make diagnoses. When I "conclude" something, it is merely a conclusion that "X is probable" or "I think if they walked into a professional's office, they would likely be diagnosed with X."

Not only am I underqualified, but he is also not my patient.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Hexcoder said:


> Btw, just to clarify--I don't make diagnoses. When I "conclude" something, it is merely a conclusion that "X is probable" or "I think if they walked into a professional's office, they would likely be diagnosed with X."
> 
> Not only am I underqualified, but he is also not my patient.


Yes, that is how I construed your reply. I should've said "conjecture" I think.


----------



## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)




----------



## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Fru2 said:


>





> Thomas Sheridan talks about his investigations into psychopaths, his respect for the Druids and his experiences as a magic practitioner


It is funny how they at the start criticize science for assuming/accepting that consciousness is produced by our brains, and then they immediately drop the conclusion that, without a doubt, our brains are just mirrors of some magical energy...









Sorcery: The Invocation of Strangeness: Sheridan, Thomas: 9780244364144: Amazon.com: Books


Sorcery: The Invocation of Strangeness [Sheridan, Thomas] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sorcery: The Invocation of Strangeness



www.amazon.com




So he also claims that black magic is a real force in the world.
I wouldn't be surprised if later in the video he defines psychopaths as demons of some sort.

I don't think this is the right place for such material, no offense.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if later in the video he defines psychopaths as demons of some sort.


He actually does, just not in the way that you describe. He also explains how tribal people used to kill identified psychopaths within their tribe, since they're better off dead than alive especially in those times of a need for survival. They couldn't have a parasytic entity eating them from within.


> I don't think this is the right place for such material, no offense.


He has much more experience and knowledge to share about psychopathy than you, so I think his opinion does belong here, no offense.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Fru2 said:


> He actually does, just not in the way that you describe.


I didn't describe anything.


> He also explains how tribal people used to kill identified psychopaths within their tribe, since they're better off dead than alive


So much for the empathy...


> He has much more experience and knowledge to share about psychopathy than you


You don't know the extent of my experiences/knowledge necessary to make this statement, though. 
Your response only illustrates, once again, how you reject everything that contradicts yours so-called "established logical standpoints" (aka your subjective bias that has little to do with being objective and logical) since those contradictions have to indicate incomplete/incorrect knowledge from your pov, which is how you can make the conclusion that "he knows much more".

Except that he doesn't. I actually listened a bit further where he tried to address the neurological angle, and I heard nothing but bullshit.
He claimed that psychopaths have normal brains, and they just can't be bothered to use regions responsible for compassion/remorse/etc.
This alone proves my point and compromises the credibility of everything that he can possibly say on this topic since this is not what studies reflect.

Maybe he planned to drop later something like "their brains reflect dark energies of the void since they don't have a soul" or something, because how else you can describe this abnormality present at birth while assuming neurotypical development. 
If you will say again "He actually does..." I will laugh really hard.

Likely you just took the offense and let emotions direct your reaction. This resource does fit into my expectations of what you probably would trust.


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## Fru2 (Aug 21, 2018)

Allostasis said:


> So much for the empathy...


A tribe killing a psychopath for the sake of the tribe's survival is different from a psychopath killing the tribe for its own thrival. Yes, empathy is very much needed and this doesn't have to do with it. It's about a use of survival instinct. Something you apparently aren't really aware of, or so it seems.
As for the rest of your post, there's a lot of nitpicking that could be made in return but I wouldn't bother.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

@Fru2


> is different from a psychopath killing the tribe for its own thrival. Yes, empathy is very much needed and this doesn't have to do with it. It's about a use of survival instinct.


The only reason why an HF psychopath would kill the entire tribe is if the tribe wanted to kill him first (and hiding is not an option). It is no different from the same survival instinct.
This means that the original desire for killing stems out of neurotypical fear, rather than a logical standpoint, assuming that Mr. Thomas's understanding of the topic is consistent with scientific studies.


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## Squirt (Jun 2, 2017)

@Hexcoder thanks for sharing your experience, even though you said you were put-off by so many folks throwing their weight around (maybe I was one... but I am open to changing perspectives with new information... I just have a forceful communication style sometimes and appreciate being tested). It provides a lot of context and is humbling to hear what you've been through. You certainly could write a book - you write so well and I'm sure it would inspire others to come out stronger and wiser despite a toxic upbringing. Do you think it would be very helpful to have a specific, unquestionable "label" that could explain your father's behavior? Or is it the quest to understand it, even if you'll never have certainty, that gives some perspective to your experiences?

Some investigations...

In terms of theory, this is a (rather scathing) read to evaluate the efficacy of conflating criminality and psychopathy, and the poor implementation of test models:

Understanding the structure of the Psychopathy Checklist - Revised



> More recently, Hare & Neumann (2005) have argued that PCL–R items that capture antisocial tendencies, including criminality, are indicators of important psychopathic traits, asserting that the ‘real core of psychopathy has yet to be uncovered’ (p. 62). *They observe that the exclusion of antisocial behaviour in the three-factor of antisocial behaviour in the three-factor model decreases the utility of the PCL–R for predicting violence and aggression (see Skeem et al , 2003).* Furthermore, they assert that ‘current findings suggest that the four-factor model has incremental validity over the three-factor in predicting important external correlates of psychopathy’ (Neumann(Neumann et al , 2007: p. 22). This logic is confused. Adding variables, for example, gender, age or a history of substance mis-use, would also improve prediction. However, such an improvement would not imply that these characteristics are core to psychopathic personality disorder. A measure’s validity in representing the construct of psychopathy should not be confused with its utility in predicting deviant behaviour (Skeem et al , 2003).


Yeah, that is extremely flawed reasoning.

I honestly didn't realize there was some attempt to claim psychopathy as a _distinct, biologically relevant personality disorder_ rather than a purely interpersonal social construct for violent/dangerous behavior. If the measurement and testing methods are as this paper describes, studies that rely on various PCL-R models for the purpose of delineating a unified pathology are pretty much useless... and no wonder psychopathy would be confused with NPD or ASPD or just, "heartless criminals".



> The validation of a construct is never complete. Validation is important for reasons of theory and for reasons of practice. The field is in danger of falling into the trap of operationalism: conflating a fallible measure of psychopathy (PCL–R) with the psychopathy (PCL–R) with the construct of psychopathy. Psychopathy and criminal behaviour are distinct constructs. If we are to understand their relationships and, critically, whether they have a functional relationship, it is essential that these constructs are measured separately. This is particularly critical within the context of the DSPD project, where individuals are detained because of the assumption of a functional link between their personality disorder and the risk that they pose. Recently, we have endeavoured to develop a more comprehensive model of the construct of psychopathy. Using clinical informants and a trait-descriptive adjectival approach we have identified – after numerous iterations – a list of 33 symptoms that are grouped rationally into six domains of grouped rationally into six domains of functioning (interpersonal – attachment; functioning (interpersonal – attachment; behavioural; cognitive; interpersonal – behavioural; cognitive; interpersonal – dominance; emotional; and self). This dominance; emotional; and self). This model is currently being subjected to empirical evaluation.


Of course, this is only scratching the surface.

Here is a paper about Cooke's psychopathy assessment, CAPP, which they are still developing and testing. It does not cross-reference any physiological factors that I can tell... but seems to be rooting around productive questions.

Development and Initial Validation of the Comprehensive Assessment of Psychopathic Personality - Self-Report (CAPP-SR)


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Fru2 said:


> This thread is dedicated to making people more aware of individuals with the a-typical neural makeup that is identified as psychopathy. Share info, tips on identification, tips on dealing with this type and experiences you've had that might be attributed to someone potentially being a psychopath. Of course, state your reasons for thinking that this was the case. Please avoid identifying any fellow members as such and keep the discourse civil, thanks!


I remember as a kid, I knew this kid named Russell. He had the reputation of being a bully, but he never really bothered me for some odd reason (I never knew why). I happened over by his house one day in the dead of Summer. We were playing around a small pond with some coy fish in it (think oversized goldfish). Somehow, Russell got his hands on one of the fish, took it to the road, and slammed it down so hard that the guts started coming out. He looked at my horrified face and smiled. I mean he had the biggest shit-eating grin on his face to the point where he went back and grabbed another coy out of that pond and did the same damn thing, and then stomped on it for good measure. I was so grossed out I basically got on my bike and went home. I never spoke to that kid again.


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## UnapologeticEclectic (Jun 22, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I knew this kid named Russell. He had the reputation of being a bully, but he never really bothered me for some odd reason (I never knew why).


Your parents might have told Russell's parents to make sure he was not bullying you because your parents were protecting you from Russell. But this is just a theory I have.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

UnapologeticEclectic said:


> Your parents might have told Russell's parents to make sure he was not bullying you because your parents were protecting you from Russell. But this is just a theory I have.


No, I was in his periphery. Russell's parents didn't know my parents. I think he knew I was friends with someone whom he feared. He was intentionally cruel to living things for no reason. That was enough for me.


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## Joe Black (Apr 1, 2015)

tanstaafl28 said:


> He was intentionally cruel to living things for no reason.


I hear that's how psychopathy can manifest in childhood. Or perhaps the making of a sociopath? Starting out with animals?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Killing animals for fun is something that isn't specific to psychopathy, nor does it follows from it. Maybe it is ASPD or something else.
Plus, A lot of kids can have psychopathic traits since their brains are still largely under development.

In a more plausible scenario, a pure immature psychopath would probably kill something because he became curious / fascinated with some organism and wanted to see how it is built, what is inside, how it reacts and etc. 
The same childish curiosity that we had with toys, there is just no difference between them and living animals.
Violence/cruelty for the sake of it and showing it to someone else - that is definitely a different disorder.


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## UnapologeticEclectic (Jun 22, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I think he knew I was friends with someone whom he feared.


It would make crystal clear sense if Russell didn't bully you if you were friends with someone he feared. At least you were smart enough to realise that he was showing an indication of cruel behaviour and avoided him.


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## NIHM (Mar 24, 2014)

I've been deciding to respond to this or not. My sister as an ESFP, and a diagnosed individual with ASPD, is considered a sociopath. She's also not a monster, that some of society might paint her as.

I first want to preface being a sociopath or psychopath is not the equivalent of what a movie or show tells you. Dexter the show (he's not one). So put aside your preconceived notion of a man with the ability to show 0 feelings and the stoic IXTJ organized type you've got in your head. If you've had one of those, they do not have ASPD, they probably suffer from NPD.

ASPD Listed below:

1. Lying. They lie a lot and it's like breathing to them. They could lie about the weather when it's sunny outside and tell you it's raining. Depending on how bad off they are, lying can be very extreme. Your self-absorbed personality has nothing to do with why they lie. They lie to everyone, including their best friends and the people they truly love. You just have to keep this in mind when being around them. Getting upset at them for lying is like being pissed that a bird can fly. It just happens, get used to it. Also to be normal you need to be able to lie so don't be all like high and mighty thinking you don't. Unless you want to have autism like me.

2. They have a hard time keeping jobs. You're not going to see one being as organized as Dexter holding a job for the Miami police department without a lot of help. Dexter this show, he does not have ASPD.

3. Highly spontaneous. They are thought of as not empathetic because they harm people without thinking. This goes to their extreme spontaneity. Think Se on steroids. If you're not a highly spontaneous individual, you're not a sociopath. They have a hard time taking care of themselves, let alone trying to take care of a plant, human being, or another animal. The fact that they can't take care of themselves should point out that they aren't inherently narcissistic, do not confuse the two mental disorders. Just because they can't take care of you doesn't mean anything, it just means they lack the attention span to help anyone including themselves. You can have narcissism and ASPD and that is another disorder. Don't believe me? Below is a link on why you're wrong. Most people with NPD are not spontaneous, do not confuse the two completely different terms.





__





Narcissistic vs. Antisocial or Sociopathic Personality Disorders - Personality Disorders


Dr. Schwartz's Weblog




www.mentalhelp.net





@Allostasis, a nod to you for actually knowing your information correctly.

4. They will say things that are not a part of normal society, something will be off when they're talking to you. Some have learned to control this over time by discipline and others not so much. Sometimes over disciplining them will make this worse.

5. Not all of them want to start killing random kitties and clubbing people over the head. They are not monsters. However, they can and will use your empathy against you and can mimic the wounded bird's act perfectly. Again lying to them is inherently a part of their brain and not all of them are born with it but the collapse of the bridge btw the right and left hemispheres can greatly increase this. At least this is what the doctors told us.

6. 1 in 100 has this mental illness. It's very common. You can be born with it. A lot of people do not even realize that they have it. So go sit down if you want to start pointing fingers.

Am I angry at any of this that I've gone through with her? No. I'm just stating the facts because this topic gets me irked when I see a lot of spread-out miscommunication.

AS TO FEELINGS AND FEAR.

1. Can they feel emotions? Yes, dependent on the level of the ASPD. Most sociopaths can actually form connections with a small group of people in their lives.

2. Can they fear? Yes. Dependent on the level of the ASPD.

It's not so cut and dry. There are levels to having ASPD. Doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths. They use a different term instead: antisocial personality disorder and there are levels to it.

They can feel emotions. There was a thread a couple of years back where a bunch of thinkers primarily XXTJ's got together and listed that no feeler could be a sociopath. I presented my sister as a case study. She's been diagnosed with ASPD. She has extremely high emotions and can cry, though may lack empathy skills if she hurts someone or herself. She does express fear in random things. The fear of mobile homes, the fear of her biological mother, the fear of watching someone get extremely abused on a show, and the fear of cornfields. Most of her fears revolve around her childhood moments that made her a sociopath. My sister was extremely abused and had way too many hits to the head, that her brain was damaged. Over time this damage to her has healed but it's taken years of love and support to heal her. Being that she was half Native American and my mother is half Native American, my mother found out about her case and adopted her. My mother is Cherokee and my sister is from a reservation near Winters, Tx Comanche. So she does exhibit fear, when someone watches something to where they are petrified and urinate themselves as they're hooked up to a heart monitor being examined I assure you she can fear. I've also seen her scream and cry so hard from her nightmares that her nose bleeds. She wears her emotions (ESFP) extremely visible on the outside. Now deciphering which one is real is the issue. She had a close friend (best friend) who died on her and they worked together. They were pretty close. She didn't cry a drop, said she was upset but no tears. However, her son almost dying and she's a total wreck, losing all composure as the ugly snot crying starts. Every emotion is almost like a live tangible wire. She's had 40+ years to control it now and she's doing better with help but she can feel very strongly and can have fear. That fear might not be towards her own safety or the safety of others. She lacks that but for some reason picks up on fears of what she went through as a child.

I will end this, that my sister is an amazing human being who has had to come over a version of hell, I would bet only 2% has ever experienced in their lives. Her childhood was close to a horror movie you can get. She's raised two amazing children with the help of our family. She's tried her best to be a part of society and I've never been more proud of her for keeping a job now for more than 10 years. Something I thought would never happen. If she loses that job I will still be proud of her. Her brain has done a lot of healing. She laughs, giggles, cries, and yes lives on the very breath of life with how spontaneous she is. I at first in my 20s was completely annoyed by her. Now that I'm older, I wouldn't have her any other way.

I don't want to respond to each individual half-as-comment who has no clue what they're talking about. I did not watch any of the youtube videos being linked but skimmed over some of the responses and thought I should type this out for anyone who wishes to read it and learn. DO not learn from youtube. You can even doubt me, open up a textbook and learn about the disease before thinking you're an expert in it. I'm not an expert but I've lived with one long enough I thought I would add to the discussion.

(probably fi- bitch slap card activated)

Edit: I've attached a photo of her. This is the face of someone with ASPD, she's a human being that deserves care just like any other human being. Again, she's not a monster. My niece is in the photo with her. So keep her face in mind, when you want to be disdainful about them because you were never abused, in a car crash, had brain trauma, or born with a mental illness. I doubt any of you are perfect.


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## arneforbes111 (Jul 2, 2021)

I wouldn't hope to be a psychopath.

But I find this person's vids pretty interesting -


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## arneforbes111 (Jul 2, 2021)




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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

@NIHM
Thank you for your post. I don't have much to comment in response, but...I thought I would share with you one of the many things I gleaned from reading because there was one thing you were not intending to share.

I understand how it feels to have a disorder and feel attacked, misunderstood, stigmatized, labelled, and all of those things. I have been diagnosed--and misdiagnosed--with things I don't necessarily always even share on PerC for this reason (despite that I am significantly more open here than I am anywhere else in my life). I have often found myself taking a similar approach as you, but I now realize that I sometimes might get carried away by my passion--and pain, which converts to anger / passion--in a way that makes the delivery of my message more intense than what is helpful or beneficial. It should not always be interpreted as an attack when people are attacking, is what I learned. Sometimes people simply have never had exposure to the right resources, knowledge, etc., and at times that is not for a lack of interest or even necessarily efforts. Sometimes it might be a lack of time, or being too preoccupied by other things, or not quite finding the right resources underneath the piles and piles of faulty ones.

I am not being sarcastic with my gratitude, even if this particular result was unintended, as I am grateful that I have stumbled upon the opportunity to be on the other side of this fight for once. Normally I am the one advocating for the mentally ill like this. If for no other reason, this has been important for teaching me more about what communication style to use while writing my book (though in practice / reality, there are many more reasons than that).

I think it is important to place things in front of people in a way that provokes an empathetic response from them in order to combat stigmatization, which I did noticve you did do. When reaching out to a broad audience though, if it comes off as guilting or shaming people--many or perhaps even most of which are innocently misinformed, since it is a broad audience--it can come across as if you are attacking them in a way instead almost, and provoke some negative attitudes toward the message that make it a harder pill to swallow. I'm aware that this was not the intention, but as messengers we need to be aware that it can have this affect as well.

Stigmatization has circled mental illness throughout the entirety of recorded history and it still has a long way to go--but the attacks that happen via misinformation are not always the fault of the misinformed. It's so deeply embedded into society that people aren't always aware that what they're doing is harmful or attacking at all. Sometimes they really just don't know any better.

I am sharing this with you not to criticize you, but because I am kind of in the same category as you: experienced with an illness (or illnesses) and trying to fight against the stigmatization. It's something I care a lot about, so I thought I'd offer some friendly insight for improving the ways we get our messages across.

Best luck and wishes to you and your family.


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