# Fi sympathy vs Fe empathy



## Hycocritical truth teller

pinkrasputin said:


> Constructive advice is DEF not empathy. Please guys, before you write these posts, actually do some research on empathy and sympathy.


and in which part of my sentence did you read "constructive advice it empathy"? LOL


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## Hycocritical truth teller

DAPHNE LXIV said:


> I guess this could be true.
> 
> For me, analysing someone's emotions is simply recreating whatever it is they are projecting and giving an appropriate emotional response. It's done on the spot, pretty much, so usually the more emotions I feel being projected at me, the more intense my response. Of course with Fi users this is damn near impossible. *I don't really trust Fi users because of how they manipulate feelings; they are more likely to play victim in my experience. *


This is actually very true. I have the same impression. And they sometimes have no problem in portraying themselves as victims in order to get the thing they are after. Usually to have their feelings satisfied but it might go even further.
By the way...do you mean Fi dom/aux? Because you are an ENTJ...technically you are Fi inferior, also an Fi user?


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## Hycocritical truth teller

ilia said:


> "Playing victim" is a harsh words. I hope you won't say it out loud to them, as it would only make us appear more defensive lol.
> 
> If you guys have no idea how you should handle an emotional Fi users, I'd suggest to simply offer your ears & shoulders. Really. Many times that's all what we need. If you offer solutions or even simply response in the wrong time, it just felt that you guys attack us even more, when we aren't emotionally ready yet, and that's why we would appear as attacking you out of nowhere. We simply return your attack lol.
> 
> *You have to options: leave them alone, or accompany them: simply be there, and do nothing. Until the Fi users calm down their self. When the Fi ask advice in calm tone, that's the indication they think they're emotionally ready and that's when your advice could be received as an advice, not an attack. If the Fi still receive it as an attack, I could only pray, may them grow up soon. Trust me, it's hard for us for not being that defensive. See. I'm being defensive.*
> 
> This is the very reason why I like to keep my feeling private. I would never break down in front of people even those I consider my inner-circle, unless I was in a very critical vulnerable state. I prefer that no one know how I feel than showing it to people and get reactions I don't like. It'd only make things worse. And when I say no one, I literally mean it.


But this is exactly what I do with most people. I don't like to meddle to avoid a possible mess. I often think that when people are being unreasonable...there is NO reasoning with them. So no point in talking much. I usually listen to them and when they ask my help, I'll help. That's it. I don't find that to be the problem because it burdens me less. I feel kinda in panic when someone gets overly emotional, I see so many things that could go wrong there. Now that I'm older I have better methods but when I was younger I would say the wrong thing and after various experiences like that I started to look for the way to avoid misunderstandings. 
When people calm down it's easier to approach them and actually tell them something useful.


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## Felipe

Fi = feel what others feel (or what you think they feel)

Fe = know what others feel and give importance to it (or not) but not necessarily feel it yourself

Fi = think you feel a certain way based on Fi's own set of values and tries to champion you or a cause

Fe = mimic what you feel but is just a reflex really, they may or may not feel the same.

Fi = opinions on ethical issues tend to be more inflexible

Fe - opinions on ethical issues tend to be more flexible depending on the circumstances

ps: these are my opinions, don't take it as facts


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## Dezir

uncertain said:


> From Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another person. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion."
> 
> It's usually said that being sympathetic to another person require common experience and empathy does not, and Fi is sympathetic while Fe is empathetic. Do you agree with it?
> 
> This popular Fi vs Fe seems to make sympathy and empathy the two end of a spectrum, so are Fi and Fe. The Wiki definition seems to imply that the two are not that different from each other, which makes me think of Fi and Fe, but I don't have an answer.
> 
> What do you think? And how about "accurate sympathy or compassion"?


Actually is the other way around. Fe is sympathy and Fi is empathy.






However, the end is the same, only the means are different.


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## MisterPerfect

I tend to be overly sympathetic of other people, but I dont really feel empathy for a lot of people. I think I do feel Empathy if its someone I deeply care about. Like I use to cry when my dad went to the hospital. Even though the procedures were not being done to me. I also feel very sad when animals are hurt, but I have a deep connection to animals.


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## 318138

It's the other way around. Fe uses mostly sympathy while Fi uses mostly empathy.

Eg. if a friend comes to an Fe user for advice the Fe user would be more likely to respond by 'mirroring' the person (if the person tells them something bad that happened Fe users would probably respond with expressions like aw... oh no...), which shows a preference for _sympathy_. An Fi user would probably respond with a personal story about their own experience with the same type of problem to show that they're not alone: _empathy_.


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## niss

Empathy and sympathy are not type dependent - all types have these feelings, and they are based on experience.


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## koalaroo

niss said:


> Empathy and sympathy are not type dependent - all types have these feelings, and they are based on experience.


I agree with this, but for the sake of cognitive functions, Fi lends itself more towards empathy than Fe does. That's mainly because Fi is an introverted function, where (in theory) the Fi user is better equipped to walk the mile in the other person's shoes. In other words, the person with Fi has an internal framework for ethical and emotional considerations -- which makes them (in theory) more prone to being able to say, "Maybe this is what the other person is experiencing."


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## Lakigigar

Antipode said:


> Are you asking if there is a difference?
> 
> Sympathy involves the sympathetic person to feel emotionally involved in the other person that they are willing to experience their emotions with them and help them through.
> 
> Empathy involves the empathetic person feeling that person's emotions to the point where they help because it hurts them as well--or affects them in the same way as it affects the other person.
> 
> A sympathetic person tends to the garden because they see the flower is bent and it needs help.
> 
> An empathetic person tends to the garden because they feel bent the same way how the flower feels bent, so they help.
> 
> It is like Ne and Ni. They both do different things in the beginning, but they eventually lead to the same end.


Well i'm definitely more empathethic then sympathetic. All my empathy is build via the 2nd way. If i build it via the first way, i was probably a proponent for death sentence because i'm not going to react when a prisoner needs help. But i'm going to react when imagining how I would feel in his shoes, how i would feel in the prison, how i would feel when a prisoner had some bad life experiences what made him to the person he is. Via empathy, i can understand both sides of a story, and with sympathy i'm always going to have sympathy for one side of it.

I'm sure you can't split INFP's and INFJ's by having more sympathy then empathy and vice versa.


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## bruh

taqwoman said:


> I was in a relationship with an INFP.
> 
> I can't stop feeling bad for people. Someone's suffering--oh god it's horrible! Why is the world like this! Why can't their fate change!! And i can't turn it off. If someone's sad, i'll be sad. Sad for them. My INFP ex says he thinks i'm the most empathetic (sympathetic?) person he's met, because of this. Unfortunately, it also means i am useless when someone needs comfort, because i end up needing comfort too. (If someone doesn't like pity, they should stay away from me.)
> 
> My ex had a hands-off (hearts-off?) approach with feeling for others. He knew he could never understand exactly what others are feeling, so he just didn't. He got perturbed when i tried to figure out what he was feeling and why. I considered it odd, because i thought that understanding others was a key part in getting along better, and being able to help people more effectively.
> 
> When we broke up, he didn't want to talk about it at all. He just wanted to keep being friends. I couldn't do it. I couldn't end an emotionally messy breakup without closure. So we were not able to "just be friends". (Ironically, years after our break up, he spent tons of time analyzing our online exchanges to figure out what went wrong between us. So much for not caring huh? Came to the conclusion i try to "speak for", he would speak only about himself, i was expecting him to be "nosy" back, he was expecting me to be "self-absorbed" back. On the plus side, we're friends again.)
> 
> Now that i'm older i totally get his point about not being able to ever truly understand someone else's suffering.


I think it's because Fi takes a back seat and analyzes everything but still feel like they don't know enough about the situation (p) so they don't take action


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## MisterPerfect

uncertain said:


> From Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another person. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion."
> 
> It's usually said that being sympathetic to another person require common experience and empathy does not, and Fi is sympathetic while Fe is empathetic. Do you agree with it?
> 
> This popular Fi vs Fe seems to make sympathy and empathy the two end of a spectrum, so are Fi and Fe. The Wiki definition seems to imply that the two are not that different from each other, which makes me think of Fi and Fe, but I don't have an answer.
> 
> What do you think? And how about "accurate sympathy or compassion"?



I always thought the difference was Sympathy means you feel bad for them but you dont feel their suffering, why empathy means you literally feel their pain.


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## bruh

I analyze a situation before I can feel empathy. I can experience the shortages and feel genuine will to help other people just like it was my problem. I already believe that suffering should be lifted as much as possible from anyone I encounter < this is healthy Fi


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## Inveniet

Yes it all makes perfect sense now.
People who express sympathy are Fi.
Hence anyone uttering statements like "Oh poor dear" must be some sort of Fi type.
I like it, clean usable and direct.
Can't wait to put my new speedtyping system into action, life will be so much easier now.


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## Felipe

hornet said:


> Yes it all makes perfect sense now.
> People who express sympathy are Fi.
> Hence anyone uttering statements like "Oh poor dear" must be some sort of Fi type.
> I like it, clean usable and direct.
> Can't wait to put my new speedtyping system into action, life will be so much easier now.


Not sure if he's being passive aggressive or actually has a new speedtyping system :ninja:


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## Inveniet

Felipe said:


> Not sure if he's being passive aggressive or actually has a new speedtyping system :ninja:


I'm on the phone with my publisher now it is going to be a bestseller.
I've even arranged for some low-paid scientists in the third world to do some "high-quality" studies to back it up.
OP will be famous and I will be rich, what could possibly go wrong?


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## Felipe

hornet said:


> I'm on the phone with my publisher now it is going to be a bestseller.
> I've even arranged for some low-paid scientists in the third world to do some "high-quality" studies to back it up.
> OP will be famous and I will be rich, what could possibly go wrong?


yep, passive aggressive it is


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## Belzy

uncertain said:


> It's usually said that being sympathetic to another person require common experience and empathy does not, and Fi is sympathetic while Fe is empathetic. Do you agree with it?


No. It looks like you've mixed them up.



Felipe said:


> Fi = feel what others feel (or what you think they feel)


That's empathy.


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## Felipe

Edison said:


> No. It looks like you've mixed them up.
> 
> 
> 
> That's empathy.


Fi (empathy) - feel what you think others feel (projection)

Fe (sympathy) - know what others feel and try to feel it yourself or pass on your mood to others (introjection)


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## Inveniet

Felipe said:


> yep, passive aggressive it is


So now that you have labeled me as passive aggressive,
what do you plan to do with that opinion about my state of being?
Or did you hope that stating it would have some sort of effect on me?


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## Felipe

hornet said:


> So now that you have labeled me as passive aggressive,
> what do you plan to do with that opinion about my state of being?
> Or did you hope that stating it would have some sort of effect on me?


I know it had some effect on you, or else you wouldn't bother to respond. I'm not hoping you're gonna change, but in case you have forgotten, I say it again: you are passive aggressive.


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## Inveniet

Felipe said:


> I know it had some effect on you, or else you wouldn't bother to respond. I'm not hoping you're gonna change, but in case you have forgotten, I say it again: you are passive aggressive.


What type of change are you NOT hoping for?


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## Felipe

hornet said:


> What type of change are you NOT hoping for?


You are smart, I'm sure you can figure it out. Besides the thread is getting derailed, again.


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## Cascadia

Lakigigar said:


> Well i'm definitely more empathethic then sympathetic. All my empathy is build via the 2nd way. If i build it via the first way, i was probably a proponent for death sentence because i'm not going to react when a prisoner needs help. But i'm going to react when imagining how I would feel in his shoes, how i would feel in the prison, how i would feel when a prisoner had some bad life experiences what made him to the person he is. Via empathy, i can understand both sides of a story, and with sympathy i'm always going to have sympathy for one side of it.
> 
> I'm sure you can't split INFP's and INFJ's by having more sympathy then empathy and vice versa.


My experience and my opinion are very close to this. I too feel all sides, though I find some more impenetrable than others (truly, I believe there are people among us who don't have feelings). 

I truly wish I had less empathy, but I automatically feel everything I see. It gives me tremendous depths and colors of emotional experience but also a lot of pain seeing the world as it is and the media reflecting and amplifying it. I also have to put my shields up if I go to a movie (almost any movie, except chick flicks) with my far less empathetic ENFP spouse.

If I didn't care so much about the world I would be out on Walden Pond sitting and writing (longhand) in Henry David Thoreau's cabin. He's the hermit who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation" and "This world is but a canvas to our imagination" and "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth" and "What is the use of a house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on?" and "I love to be alone. I never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude." INFP much? I suspect he, like poet Emily Dickinson, became recluses to get away from all the overwhelmingness of others. I can relate.


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## Inveniet

Felipe said:


> You are smart, I'm sure you can figure it out. Besides the thread is getting derailed, again.


True, oh us sinful derailers...
We must repent
Yet I do NOT hope for a change


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

Looked at Pod'Lair observations on Xai (Fi correlate) and Xyy (Fe correlate)...

Power of Xyy

Power of Xai

Looks like empathy is in Xai domain. Caring/personaly consideration of Xyy is probably something like sympathy?


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## VagrantFarce

Here's a thought:


*Fi* understands "values" as something that is internalised and emerges experientially. In this sense, everyone is entitled to their own individual emotional experience as it occurs to them. "You can't tell me how I feel".


*Fe* understands "values" as something that you align to, create or enforce, outside of yourself. In this sense, values are what bring people together rather than seperate, and we have an obligation as individuals to play our emotional part.


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## lookslikeiwin

I see both emotional variations as having important roles. To me, empathy has more to do with development than it does with the type of feels you use. Undeveloped feels appear ridiculous, self-centered and dramatic/melodramatic no matter which kind you use, while developed feels are empathetic, self-sacrificing and, amazingly, _rational_ (or you could say calm and under control). The best way to achieve developed feels is via experiences. It also speeds up or slows down development to have certain kinds of wiring (sensitivity, feeling vs thinking types, etc).

This is an interesting discussion in any case.


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## Scarlet.Black

Felipe said:


> Not sure if he's being passive aggressive or actually has a new speedtyping system :ninja:


I believe that @hornet is just being sarcastic.


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## Scarlet.Black

lookslikeiwin said:


> I see both emotional variations as having important roles. To me, empathy has more to do with development than it does with the type of feels you use. Undeveloped feels appear ridiculous, self-centered and dramatic/melodramatic no matter which kind you use, while developed feels are empathetic, self-sacrificing and, amazingly, _rational_ (or you could say calm and under control). The best way to achieve developed feels is via experiences. It also speeds up or slows down development to have certain kinds of wiring (sensitivity, feeling vs thinking types, etc).
> 
> This is an interesting discussion in any case.


I agree with you. I don't think that empathy and sympathy has anything to do with Fe and Fi. I think that empathy and sympathy are both something you can learn to use. I would say that empathy means that you are aware of others feelings and sympathy means that you can blend in others feelings. Maybe it depends on your personality type which ability is easier for you to learn but I think that every personality type is able to do both.


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## lookslikeiwin

Scarlet.Black said:


> I agree with you. I don't think that empathy and sympathy has anything to do with Fe and Fi. I think that empathy and sympathy are both something you can learn to use. I would say that empathy means that you are aware of others feelings and sympathy means that you can blend in others feelings. Maybe it depends on your personality type which ability is easier for you to learn but I think that every personality type is able to do both.


Yeah, I know I do both, only empathy is rarer for me, and sympathy honestly is kinda rare too. It does happen, it just doesn't come as naturally to me as other people and sometimes I will cry even if I'm not feeling anything (sympathy crying, because I am HSP I suppose) and other times I won't cry or feel anything even though something sounds absolutely horrible. And sometimes I will cry at Panera about a friend's roommate's terrible situation (yes, this happened once). INTPs are known for their feels being turned off and on at random though.


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## AltruisticMisanthropist

I'm an INTJ, so I have Fi as a tertiary function which means this may or may not be credible, but whatever. I think that as someone has stated before me, I do attempt to figure out the sincerity of someone's emotions before helping them out logically. If I sense that someone is being emotional with no good reason (based on my own judgment and values), I'll probably call them out. I think an Fe user might feel pity without thinking about whether or not they should. And since Fi decides the validity of the person's emotions from their own internal values, they end up empathizing instead of feeling pity.


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## Monroe

Just skimming this thread and trying to understand:

So Fe is the ability to have compassion and yet keep yourself separate from the object of compassion, and Fi is the ability to merge with the object of compassion? Because I have a great deal of feeling for people and I do help them, but I don't know if I can accurately predict their feelings. I just know they aren't necessarily feeling what I am, pain or otherwise.


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## Rose for a Heart

Antipode said:


> Sympathy involves the sympathetic person to feel emotionally involved in the other person that they are willing to experience their emotions with them and help them through.
> 
> Empathy involves the empathetic person feeling that person's emotions to the point where they help because it hurts them as well--or affects them in the same way as it affects the other person.
> 
> A sympathetic person tends to the garden because they see the flower is bent and it needs help.
> 
> An empathetic person tends to the garden because they feel bent the same way how the flower feels bent, so they help.
> 
> It is like Ne and Ni. They both do different things in the beginning, but they eventually lead to the same end.


Based on that, I would say Fi is more empathetic.


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## Rose for a Heart

Lady O.W. Bro said:


> Fi is funny because on one hand, l can take a step back and really analyze the feelings behind a situation. So, in this way, l may come to a deeper understanding about a situation than a Fe user. But the subjective nature it's based on, still renders a toss up as to whether my perception will be accurate or not.
> 
> l do strive to be as accurate as possible and have for as long as l can remember(because l knew l was prone to believing my own thoughts).


This is why Feeling is balanced out by thinking. Te helps in such cases. I find it helpful to ask the person, so that in future I am not basing my judgment solely from "how would I feel."


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## Antipode

Azalea said:


> Based on that, I would say Fi is more empathetic.


Mhm.

Fi users are far more likely to come to your aid when you're experiencing something they relate with. When they've been through it, they can completely feel what you're feeling--or should I say, they're able to re-feel what they felt before, and thus can relate. Similar to how if you talk about food with a Si, they're able to re-taste that food from their previous experience.

On the flip side, though. Fi users are less aware of other people's emotions than a Fe user. Fe users are constantly able to sense out what other people are feeling, because they aren't hindered by their own emotions. This is why some people say Fi users are selfish.

Yet, this is speaking entirely in function terms--none of this accounts for the human element. Your actual personality--beyond MBTI words--also influences your empathy and sympathy. The number of mirror neurons you have also influences that, too. Pure choice is also a factor.

But entirely talking about functions, Fi is the more empathetic function.


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## Rose for a Heart

VagrantFarce said:


> Here's a thought:
> 
> 
> *Fi* understands "values" as something that is internalised and emerges experientially. In this sense, everyone is entitled to their own individual emotional experience as it occurs to them. "You can't tell me how I feel".
> *Fe* understands "values" as something that you align to, create or enforce, outside of yourself. In this sense, values are what bring people together rather than seperate, and we have an obligation as individuals to play our emotional part.


OMG yes. And that is why there can be so much friction between the two. I think being forced to exist in an environment where your personality preferences aren't valued can feel very threatening to your emotional security (This is my experience as dom-Fi)


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## Allyrianne

I think you have it the other way around.

Fi users would tend to be more empathetic.

Fe users would tend to be more sympathetic.


In an INFP vs INFJ example:

An INFJ would use Fe (get a grasp of external emotional stimuli) and process it through Ni to make an inference of how the other person feels.
An INFP would directly use Fi (scan through an arsenal of emotions relative to situations gathered through a lifetime experience) and get a feeling which closely resemble to that of the other person, if not exactly the same.

An INFJ's intuition is powerful that it's mostly never wrong, but it falls short a bit on the feeling department. Thus, you may end up sympathizing with the person and offer solace to an aching heart.

An INFP's feeling however is not just powerful but a real time reflection of other people's feelings. It breaks through the sympathy phase and even goes deeper to the point of actually "living" the other person's experience, seeing how an INFP would feel about it as if it's their own reality. That's empathy.


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## Blacteco

Saying Fi is more empathetic than Fe is like saying Ti is more logically consistent than Te and there are just hundred examples around prove this statement is wrong.


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## Allyrianne

Blacteco said:


> Saying Fi is more empathetic than Fe is like saying Ti is more logically consistent than Te and there are just hundred examples around prove this statement is wrong.


It's a statement describing tendencies. You're barking up the wrong tree.


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## Notus Asphodelus

Blacteco said:


> Saying Fi is more empathetic than Fe is like saying Ti is more logically consistent than Te and there are just hundred examples around prove this statement is wrong.


According to Google's dictionary, *sympathy* is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while *empathy* is putting yourself in the shoes of another. From what I can understand Fi's way of understanding is quintessentially putting oneself into another person's shoe because Fi can only understand through knowing one's own self.


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## Allyrianne

Notus Asphodelus said:


> According to Google's dictionary, *sympathy* is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while *empathy* is putting yourself in the shoes of another. From what I can understand Fi's way of understanding is quintessentially putting oneself into another person's shoe because Fi can only understand through knowing one's own self.


Spot on!


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## Blacteco

Allyrianne said:


> It's a statement describing tendencies. You're barking up the wrong tree.


Your tendencies about Fe users are wrong because everyone can have sympathy and empathy even Thinkers as well. For example, an INFJ might have more empathy than an INFP but on the other side of world an INFP might have more empathy than INFJ. *"FJs/TPs"* or *"Fe users"* must tend to less empathetic just because word sympathy has similar definition to function Fe, is wrong. There is no such thing as *"Fe users"* has less empathy, but a *function Fe* has a similar definition to "sympathy". You're wrong, you just hurt a really empathetic INFJ with your bad and biased example.


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## Blacteco

Notus Asphodelus said:


> According to Google's dictionary, *sympathy* is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while *empathy* is putting yourself in the shoes of another. From what I can understand Fi's way of understanding is quintessentially putting oneself into another person's shoe because Fi can only understand through knowing one's own self.


Actually I don't mean function Fe and Fi. I mean Fe users and Fi users. I forgot to put word "users" in my statement but thanks for adding information.


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## Allyrianne

Blacteco said:


> Your tendencies about Fe users are wrong because everyone can have sympathy and empathy even Thinkers as well. For example, an INFJ might have more empathy than an INFP but on the other side of world an INFP might have more empathy than INFJ. *"FJs/TPs"* or *"Fe users"* must tend to less empathetic just because word sympathy has similar definition to function Fe, is wrong. There is no such thing as *"Fe users"* has less empathy, but a *function Fe* has a similar definition to "sympathy". You're wrong, you just hurt a really empathetic INFJ with your bad and biased example.


You think someone felt hurt just because I said Fi users tend to be more empathetic? Lol. No INFPs are competing with you, you can believe in your delusions as it pleases you. But you can't tell me what to believe. I don't intend to argue with people like you and your emotions, so I'm gonna lay this one warning before I put you on permanent block. Have a nice day!


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## Allyrianne

@Blacteco I'm sorry for the things I said. I was just about to explode yesterday, and thank goodness I haven't said anything too nasty. Anyway, I respect your opinion even if we can't agree on some things.


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## Bastard

Blacteco said:


> I mean Fe users and Fi users.


So... _everyone_?


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## Forest Nymph

I recently met a guy who seems super-natural (not "supernatural") at facilitating others, so much so that I asked if he had taught professionally or worked with children, and he said no he had only worked with children once for a few months but not extensively. Then he said that when he was little he was kind of a class clown because he wanted other people to be happy. What stuck out to me was that he then said, "you know I'm okay, I just worry about others, I want them to be alright."

Someone could have taken "class clown" and ran away with ExFP, but my best friend from high school is ENFJ and she was exactly like that in high school, a comedian, and she used humor to deflect people from talking about her mental state or feelings, humor was like her way at keeping people at a distance from her inner state while simultaneously caring for them. 

Same with this guy, not because I assume every ENFJ is like my teenage bestie (they aren't, some are more serious maybe with less attention to their tertiary Se) but because he said "I'm okay, I want other people to be alright."

An Fi type, no matter how empathetic and kind, would negate themselves in this martyr type way, especially not as a declaration of their overall personality. Of course an FP could be "I'm ok but how are you" in a specific situation but that would never be an Fi life credo. Fi would be more like "I'm okay, you're okay" or "self-care is the first step to being able to care for others."

I had a professor also who I believe is an xNFJ and I can tell sometimes she's taken aback by how resolutely I actually live my values. She's affronted a bit by how passionate I am about being vegan (though she tells me she admires my passion and understands why I want others to share my values) and when I told her the other day I don't want a car unless I can have a Prius or a Tesla i.e. something that uses little to no (preferably zero) fossil fuels, she was just kind of like...lol...I could just feel it and see it in her face, because she teaches environmental science classes, and here I am, actually living my values in a way she pays lip-service to in a more passive, moderate way, because G-d forbid she be anything other than "politically correct" and "inclusive." That's Fe too, that's garbage Fe though, the kind of Fe that drives me batshit.

The guy I met doesn't seem to have that kind. I could be wrong, maybe he is an FP but I'd be really shocked. Maybe he's trying to impress me with what a good person he is.


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## Bastard

Forest Nymph said:


> Someone could have taken "class clown" and ran away with ExFP, but my best friend from high school is ENFJ and she was exactly like that in high school, a comedian, and she used humor to deflect people from talking about her mental state or feelings, humor was like her way at keeping people at a distance from her inner state while simultaneously caring for them.


That's all Fi at work, controlling emotional distance between self and others while evoking goodwill. Auxiliary Fi, if she was an extravert.


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## Forest Nymph

Bastard said:


> That's all Fi at work, controlling emotional distance between self and others while evoking goodwill. Auxiliary Fi, if she was an extravert.


Not only have I typed her as ENFJ she consistently self-types as xNFJ on type tests. As she's grown and matured she's the homegirl who is always down for old friends. When anyone from our high school has died, she's been there for either the sick person or their loved ones. The way she expresses her values, too, is very palatable. Her values aren't much different from my own, but she would never risk hurting someone's feelings with her views unless they really meanly stepped out of line (like being racist or posting nudes of their ex on FB). 

Fe knows expertly how to both pull in and push away. This is not just the "INFJ door slam" but the way an Fe type might just stop talking to you suddenly instead of arguing with you, or how they might be infuriatingly moderate.

Of course there are different levels of Fe. The garbage Fe I can't stand is when people seem to have no other real values than not to rock the boat. The world could burn, and they wouldn't make a move to put out the fire if it meant stepping on someone's toes in their inner circle.

That's why ultimately Fi is what changes the world. Fi is philosophical ethics and ideals, and standing up for that rational ideal. An Fe dom may be the "teacher" who popularizes that ideal, but it has to come from Fi types first. Fe even in it's best and highest form is just too concerned with offending those in the inner circle.


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## X A N A

I feel deeply when it comes to my experiences, but when it comes to other's emotions I am very blind. I don't feel with them, and see it as a problem to be fixed if negative. An inconvenience.

So I assume I am very Fi.


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## Forest Nymph

Yamimaru said:


> I feel deeply when it comes to my experiences, but when it comes to other's emotions I am very blind. I don't feel with them, and see it as a problem to be fixed if negative. An inconvenience.
> 
> So I assume I am very Fi.


Yeah that's tertiary Fi, you have a "younger" version of Fi than an FP. All FPs go through an extremely self-absorbed phase (especially in early to mid teens) though those who are neurotic or who have been traumatized may need to linger in the self-absorbed phase until young adulthood, the "mature" FP DOES feel with others and feels it viscerally. 

Like when I see certain types of suffering I literally feel it inside my body, it's almost unbearable depending on what it is, but with people who deeply offend my values or confront me or just strike me as narcissistic, it's amazing how little fucks I give about their feelings.

I see this in Lana del Rey, too, probably an ISFP, she writes a lot of songs based on her personal experiences and sufferings, and in sync with her own little aesthetic - and yet as a 30ish woman she employs this as a way to love her fans, I've never seen a musician genuinely love her fans so much, she hugs and kisses people, holds them as they cry, comes down into the audience, because she FEELS her fans like she feels herself. However, any time anyone fucks with her she lashes out, one time on Twitter she called someone a little bitch because they were harassing her about releasing her album that year (I believe it was Honeymoon) and more recently a fan was acting really narcissistic during a selfie, like trying to get the perfect selfie and adjust the angle, and she just looked at them and said "fuck it" and walked away.


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## Guajiro

I have seen this "sympathy vs empathy" a lot of times about Fi and Fe. I don't know who started this idea but I find it ridiculous.
Jung explained Extroversion as an Empathic relation with the object and Introversion as a detached relation with objects. It was to give an example and make it easier to explain the two attitudes... not to imply that Introverts have less empathy.

I also came across a Youtube video with Jung's interview where he talks about Intuition and the tittle of the video is "_Jung talks about Introverted Intuitives (Empaths)_". Again, the worship that was created arround the INFJ type and all the hate on Introverted Feeling and the bias that it is Selfish... Sorry, this is ridiculous. My gut feeling tells me these stupid ideas come from imature and narcissistic INFJs in the comunity who want us all to belive that they are Angels, Saints... 

I am not saying this is the case with all INFJs... I am just saying that this hate *Fi* gets, as if it was lesser than the other functions is the least empathetic thing. Introverted Intuition became almost like a religion "because since it is Introverted it is deeper, and not shallow like the Extroverted Intuition" (like a lot of people say).... But when it comes to *Fi*, suddenly it is not deeper, suddenly it has no empathy (just sympathy)...

I am not saying this because I want people to worship *Fi* like they do with *Ni*. I don't. It's just that it is ridiculous

To me the "empathy vs sympathy" about Fi and Fe is failing to understand that *Feeling* functions are about evaluating the worth of something and *not experiencing emotions*. 
It is also implying that Thinkers have less empathy. For god's sake. Empathy and sympathy depend on the individual, the situation, etc.


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## Forest Nymph

Notus Asphodelus said:


> According to Google's dictionary, *sympathy* is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters, while *empathy* is putting yourself in the shoes of another. From what I can understand Fi's way of understanding is quintessentially putting oneself into another person's shoe because Fi can only understand through knowing one's own self.



Yeah that's exactly right. That's why Fe can look "inauthentic" to an Fi type because sometimes Fe acts on genuinely held values, but other times they simply appear to be operating on a distanced, cognitive bias of rotely doing the right thing (even though they don't actually feel anything particularly about it one way or the other). This ability of Fe to reach out and help without internal feeling can be both a blessing and a curse. It can make them good teachers or counselors who routinely act in the archetype of "this is what a caring responsible human does" and yet it can also come across as insincere, unthinking, unquestioning, or stupidly judgmental of people who are "different" because Fe is more "efficient" like Te. Imagine being "efficient" in one's feelings, there's something a bit sinister about that. It has its ups and downs. I spent six years with an Fe dom who could be a real doll or a real asshat, and I really hated when we got into fights and he revealed to me that sometimes he was "nice" to me when he was thinking other things. Like thanks a lot creep, glad I'm a paper doll cut out you project your affectionate behavior upon until I act out of accordance with your family's shared values. 

Though Fi isn't necessarily a picnic always obviously. We spend a lot of time clarifying what ethics mean to us, and we don't want other people intruding upon the clarity of the ultimately chosen value. This can make us irritable or cold at times, and we also are more likely to offend other people in cases where we care more about the ethic than the person. We do have an advantage of being authentic or sincere most of the time (though we can learn to "use" Fe when we are older at work or whatever) and genuinely living what we believe. I think the idea of "walking the walk" is a very Fi concept - or at least for "mature" Fi, when we are an embodiment of our values in our real lives because we feel so strongly about these ethics we wouldn't live any other way, I mean how could we. This uncompromising attitude can actually help people. Think Erin Brockovich the ENFP fighting for environmental rights despite her lack of education and money - in that case, she actually helped people more than the EPA. Fi types do stuff like this when they are "mature" or at least intelligent, they have a tenacity for whatever it is they were born to do, and they get it done. I believe Bernie Sanders is an INFP. Look at how many people he inspires. People credit ISFP Lana del Rey for literally saving them from suicide or serious depression or loneliness (in fact many SFP musicians, particularly soloist vocalists, have been credited with a similar feat by their fan base).


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## Forest Nymph

Guajiro said:


> I have seen this "sympathy vs empathy" a lot of times about Fi and Fe. I don't know who started this idea but I find it ridiculous.
> Jung explained Extroversion as an Empathic relation with the object and Introversion as a detached relation with objects. It was to give an example and make it easier to explain the two attitudes... not to imply that Introverts have less empathy.
> 
> I also came across a Youtube video with Jung's interview where he talks about Intuition and the tittle of the video is "_Jung talks about Introverted Intuitives (Empaths)_". Again, the worship that was created arround the INFJ type and all the hate on Introverted Feeling and the bias that it is Selfish... Sorry, this is ridiculous. My gut feeling tells me these stupid ideas come from imature and narcissistic INFJs in the comunity who want us all to belive that they are Angels, Saints...
> 
> I am not saying this is the case with all INFJs... I am just saying that this hate *Fi* gets, as if it was lesser than the other functions is the least empathetic thing. Introverted Intuition became almost like a religion "because since it is Introverted it is deeper, and not shallow like the Extroverted Intuition" (like a lot of people say).... But when it comes to *Fi*, suddenly it is not deeper, suddenly it has no empathy (just sympathy)...
> 
> I am not saying this because I want people to worship *Fi* like they do with *Ni*. It's just that it is ridiculous


I'm honestly not sure if it comes from INFJs or from SFJs tbh. An Fe type that isn't as mature, or not as intelligent will see the "boat rocking" of Fi strong values as "immature." As though the hallmark of maturity is to tolerate bullshit with a smile on your face, lol. Fi kind of looks down on this as a particularly offensive form of idiocy, just as a strong Ti type would one a not-so-bright Te type. Not-so-bright Te types are rigid rule followers and not-so-bright Fe types think the be all and end all is to have everyone discussing ideas so politely that even Nazis are "tolerated" because being politically correct is more important than truth. 

Many, many people in the U.S. are not as educated as they should be or were held to very low standards in public schools so they could be controlled easily by factories and corporate America. This transcends personality type. There are philosophers that are ISFPs and fine artists that are ISFJs, Ns don't hold the world record for being "smarter" but I think what tends to stick out more in our culture is ignorant STJ and SFJ types because there are so many of them, and Te and Fe tends to impose itself in a way that is quite organized and institutional. 

That's another stupid stereotype too: that Fi never imposes itself. Oh Fi values sure do impose themselves, but not with the factory-esque mechanistic group think of Fe and Te. Fe = change government from within by applying one's self to the system and working patiently within it over time. Fi = change government by being an activist, lobbyist or grassroots local anarchist. Hell, just burn the damn building down (j/k). 

I think Fe types can actually be brutal about other people's feelings if it disrupts the flow of the group-think. Fe isn't always caring towards everyone, they can be totally vindictive towards an "out group" (like the way conservative Christians will give their last dollar to the church or feed the hungry, but then go hate gays in a way that suggests overt organized societal bullying). I've experienced this on a personal level too, within family structures especially.


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## Bastard

Forest Nymph said:


> Not only have I typed her as ENFJ she consistently self-types as xNFJ on type tests. As she's grown and matured she's the homegirl who is always down for old friends. When anyone from our high school has died, she's been there for either the sick person or their loved ones. The way she expresses her values, too, is very palatable. Her values aren't much different from my own, but she would never risk hurting someone's feelings with her views unless they really meanly stepped out of line (like being racist or posting nudes of their ex on FB).


None of this invalidates my observation. There is no reason why your friend _can't_ be an ENFJ and prefer Fi over Fe. MBTI is a system of preferences. Although Myers and Briggs were inspired by Jung, there isn't much of a link between MBTI and CF.



Forest Nymph said:


> Fe knows expertly how to both pull in and push away. This is not just the "INFJ door slam" but the way an Fe type might just stop talking to you suddenly instead of arguing with you, or how they might be infuriatingly moderate.


Fe-dominant types are all about the external feels. They have infectious personalities that sway groups. Fe in general is rowdier than Fi is, it's the _extraverted_ attitude, after all. "INFJ door slam" is Fi. This shouldn't be too surprising: Fi dominants _are_ "judging" dominants after all.



Forest Nymph said:


> Of course there are different levels of Fe. The garbage Fe I can't stand is when people seem to have no other real values than not to rock the boat.


Low-level Fe in the so-called "stack" results in stereotypical "ExTP" shit: trying to get people to like you by cracking jokes, kicking on the charm. All while being unable to pick up on what other people are actually feeling. _Unintentionally_ stepping on toes.

Lower than that and you're in the "robot" territory, people who're incapable of much expression and who pay little attention to the feelings of others. "IxTJs" are the best example of this; at least "IxTPs" have that shit in their "stack."

"Rocking the boat" depends on what you mean specifically. Feelers are as often the "thought police" as they are the boat rockers. Thinkers rock the boat more. Extraverts especially. The stereotype of "boat rocker" in terms of ideas and shit goes to the ENTPs. 



Forest Nymph said:


> That's why ultimately Fi is what changes the world. Fi is philosophical ethics and ideals, and standing up for that rational ideal.


Haaaaa No. You're being biased here. "Ideals" and "philosophy" in this sense have _nothing_ to do with cognitive functions. Cognitive functions explain behaviour, communication and thought processes. 



Forest Nymph said:


> An Fe dom may be the "teacher" who popularizes that ideal, but it has to come from Fi types first. Fe even in it's best and highest form is just too concerned with offending those in the inner circle.


Bias again. High-level Fe changes the circle's outlook, out of all types they're the _best_ at pushing a change in atmosphere. Fi is more individualistic, more one-on-one. Fi types change the atmosphere through their relationships with people.

Your stereotypical "charismatic speaker" is an Fe type. Take Hitler, for example. :laughing:

*Teacher* is the Keirsey name for ENFJ. Keirsey's system is not the same as MBTI, but confusion arises because he adopted the same four letter code. Keirsey deliberately has *NOTHING* to do with Jungian stuff. Keirsey's dichotomies are abstract/concrete, cooperative/pragmatic, directive/informative and expressive/attentive.

The most "original thinkers" are Ne types. Especially Ne types that don't value Te's pragmatism.


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## Drecon

Forest Nymph said:


> Yeah that's exactly right. That's why Fe can look "inauthentic" to an Fi type because sometimes Fe acts on genuinely held values, but other times they simply appear to be operating on a distanced, cognitive bias of rotely doing the right thing (even though they don't actually feel anything particularly about it one way or the other). This ability of Fe to reach out and help without internal feeling can be both a blessing and a curse. It can make them good teachers or counselors who routinely act in the archetype of "this is what a caring responsible human does" and yet it can also come across as insincere, unthinking, unquestioning, or stupidly judgmental of people who are "different" because Fe is more "efficient" like Te. Imagine being "efficient" in one's feelings, there's something a bit sinister about that. It has its ups and downs. I spent six years with an Fe dom who could be a real doll or a real asshat, and I really hated when we got into fights and he revealed to me that sometimes he was "nice" to me when he was thinking other things. Like thanks a lot creep, glad I'm a paper doll cut out you project your affectionate behavior upon until I act out of accordance with your family's shared values.


Very well said. One thing I need to comment here though is that we Fe-users don't get a choice in how we experience these things. Our need (especially for Fe-doms) to have 'external peace' is so big that we _have to_ set our own personal feelings aside. That is, until we find a balance with a developed Ti, which allows us to actually stand up for ourselves and give our own feelings a say in the matter as well. 
So what I'm saying is that while it's probably good to have stopped seeing this Fe-dom ex of yours, it doesn't feel fair to call him a creep because of it. His brain was just set up in this way and he couldn't have changed that part of him if he tried (at least not without becoming deeply unhappy). That said, in a relationship it's very important to find out what parts of your partner you can and can't live with. If this was something you couldn't accept, that means it's better this way. 

I do want to reiterate that I really value your post though. You've said this a lot better than I am usually able to.


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## Forest Nymph

Drecon said:


> Very well said. One thing I need to comment here though is that we Fe-users don't get a choice in how we experience these things. Our need (especially for Fe-doms) to have 'external peace' is so big that we _have to_ set our own personal feelings aside. That is, until we find a balance with a developed Ti, which allows us to actually stand up for ourselves and give our own feelings a say in the matter as well.
> So what I'm saying is that while it's probably good to have stopped seeing this Fe-dom ex of yours, it doesn't feel fair to call him a creep because of it. His brain was just set up in this way and he couldn't have changed that part of him if he tried (at least not without becoming deeply unhappy). That said, in a relationship it's very important to find out what parts of your partner you can and can't live with. If this was something you couldn't accept, that means it's better this way.
> 
> I do want to reiterate that I really value your post though. You've said this a lot better than I am usually able to.


Oh no, we were together for six years and he was abusive. There's no other way to describe his on-going behavior. I loved him deeply, we intellectually connected with music, film, and humor, and we lived together, and we had an incredible level of intimacy, but his father was a violent, terrible man. My ex was never like his father, it was a point of pride for him (probably because his mother was his best friend before me) and that's why I stayed with him all those years. But he had a mental disturbance, an anger problem, I think he was probably borderline - borderlines are usually women, but being an Fe dom, it made sense for him, he was artistic and sensitive and expressed emotion easily. However, he also did things to my life which wouldn't allow me to have the college education I now have after leaving him. Since leaving him, I am a whole human being even without a partner. When I was with him, I was only half a person without him. That sounds romantic, and it was, but I knew I'd never have any life with him, and if we had children, he'd be my "first child" ....he refused to get therapy. The SJ in him hated things like clinical psych and etc. My ultimatum to him was to get therapy so we could get married. Instead he kept begging me to come home. It nearly killed me, but I actually kept my word that time, in that sixth year.


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## Drecon

Forest Nymph said:


> Oh no, we were together for six years and he was abusive. There's no other way to describe his on-going behavior. I loved him deeply, we intellectually connected with music, film, and humor, and we lived together, and we had an incredible level of intimacy, but his father was a violent, terrible man. My ex was never like his father, it was a point of pride for him (probably because his mother was his best friend before me) and that's why I stayed with him all those years. But he had a mental disturbance, an anger problem, I think he was probably borderline - borderlines are usually women, but being an Fe dom, it made sense for him, he was artistic and sensitive and expressed emotion easily. However, he also did things to my life which wouldn't allow me to have the college education I now have after leaving him. Since leaving him, I am a whole human being even without a partner. When I was with him, I was only half a person without him. That sounds romantic, and it was, but I knew I'd never have any life with him, and if we had children, he'd be my "first child" ....he refused to get therapy. The SJ in him hated things like clinical psych and etc. My ultimatum to him was to get therapy so we could get married. Instead he kept begging me to come home. It nearly killed me, but I actually kept my word that time, in that sixth year.


I understand. Good of you to get out of this abusive relationship. It sounds horrible.


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## RifanShah

uncertain said:


> From Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another person. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion."
> 
> It's usually said that being sympathetic to another person require common experience and empathy does not, and Fi is sympathetic while Fe is empathetic. Do you agree with it?
> 
> This popular Fi vs Fe seems to make sympathy and empathy the two end of a spectrum, so are Fi and Fe. The Wiki definition seems to imply that the two are not that different from each other, which makes me think of Fi and Fe, but I don't have an answer.
> 
> What do you think? And how about "accurate sympathy or compassion"?


Personally I disagree with that. I feel like it's the opposite. I find Fi to be more empathetic, and Fe to be Sympathetic. If to be empathetic is to put oneselves into someone's shoes, then that would sound like Fi. Fe users would analyse someone's feelings, and create there own understanding of their feelings, but Fi users would imagine themselves in this person's situation, and try to feel it. As for me, I'm an ENFP. I don't like sympathising others and I don't like to be sympathised. But when I see anyone going through a tough time, I always imagine myself in their position, analyse how I would feel if I'm them. I might not be able to know how this person exactly feel, but I understand the struggle they are in. 

Fe user are good at picking up other people's feelings by observing them, then uses their Ti to piece it together to make sense of it. But they can't understand fully, and can't personally feel it in them. That's what I observe from my INFJ bestfriend. He's really good at accurately pointing out whatever I feel, but he doesn't feel anything(I mean empathise, he does feel, like feeling worried). 

Fi users are the opposite. Since we put ourselves in their position, we feel the stress and struggles, and really emotional, we understand their problems, but we are not good at picking up their emotions. We usually point out their feelings inaccurately. So we may not know how they actually feel, but we understand the stress and pressure they feel.

Maybe most people think Fe are Empaths and Fi are Sympathetic because they stereotype Fes as the type of people who would understand and care of other people's feelings, and Fi users don't care about other people but themselves. 

But I feel like Fe users would make the type of people who would sit down with you, and help you sort out your feelings, and gives good advice to overcome them. And Fi user would be the type who would find out about your problems, gets emotionally fired up, and ready beat the crap out of whoever who made them feel that way.


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