# My manager is annoying



## letsrunlikecrazy (Sep 21, 2015)

I changed teams in the summer, and it turns out my new manager is massively annoying. In my old team we were all grumpy introverts and wouldn't stand for more than one weekly meeting, let alone have anybody check on us all the time. My new team is ruled over by one extrovert who's been at the job for four years whereas everyone else has been in the team for less than a year. We're essentially all trainees and he feels entitled to all the annoying invasive manager tactics.

We have virtual team "standup" meetings every day except once a week when we have an hour-long team meeting, as well as a one-on-one check-in meeting once a week that typically runs at least 30 minutes, and various ad hoc meetings throughout the week. We also have company-wide meetings on top of that. Our boss tried to institute a norm of making everybody turn on their cameras during the company meetings, but half the company was like "f*** that" and so I guess it's optional now. It was optional for my team for our team meetings as well but my manager "asked" everybody to turn on their cameras which means it's not optional because if it was optional he wouldn't have asked. He only asked because more of us were starting to attend meetings with their cameras off.

The daily standups are pure and utter bullshit. It's a software development fad where everyone goes around and states what they're doing that day. The first problem with this is that the information typically isn't relevant or interesting to anybody except for the manager. But if he wanted to know what everyone was doing he could easily check our work calendars.

The second problem is there are way more efficient and less annoying ways to share that information. For example, we could have a weekly standup as opposed to a daily one. Also, the meetings themselves run longer than necessary because the manager can't communicate succinctly and goes on tangents. He sometimes blathers on about projects he's working on but which aren't finished yet, which means nobody can use them, so nobody cares. He'll go as far as to share screenshots and ask for feedback. But to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about his personal projects when I have my own tasks to finish, especially not first thing in the morning.

There are other times he goes into lecture mode, which would be fine if we were all total beginners but the thing is he doesn't know much about our backgrounds (he usually assumes we're dumber and less informed than we actually are) or the context behind our workflow, which means a lot of the times he just comes across as condescending and out of touch. Today he was talking about an Excel spreadsheet I made and referred to it as "bad data practice" because it doesn't fit neatly into a standard relational database schema. Except I was only using it for a simple purpose which didn't require a relational database, so it's not bad practice, and seriously if he wanted it to be a relational database he could have just said so. He didn't need to make it a fking lecture and make me look incompetent in the process.

Another similar incident when we lost a client for a project I was the lead on. He said in front of the entire team that the main reason the project failed was because of inadequate methodology. I disagreed and pointed out that there were other factors that went into it, including the way we handled the client. He basically shut me down and made methodology the official cause of death, which of course makes it my fault since it was my project. For context, I created this project and worked on it for months before his dumb ass got involved, and only sporadically at that. He knows jack shit about it except for the parts he told me to change, and even then he doesn't remember most of it. It pissed me off that he acted like he knew why the project failed and I didn't, not just that he indirectly put me at fault.

That said, I don't think he actually means to put anybody down. I would say he has "Dad Syndrome" where he tries to impart knowledge and wisdom on people with the best of intentions but fails because he comes across as boring, repetitive, insensitive, and out of touch with reality. Speaking of which, despite appearing sociable he is a poor manager which is why he is the only one who's been in the team for longer than a year. Everyone else quit. He is generally disconnected from how team members feel, largely because he doesn't allow them to be direct and open. 

Almost nobody speaks up and challenges him in meetings. I do occasionally because I don't care. But whenever I disagree he almost always just shuts it down. He doubles down especially hard in team meetings when the interns are present. You know, cuz his managerial dignity and reputation are at stake.

He also told our boss that I've been acting uncooperatively, which, even if it was a legitimate concern, I think it was a dick move to talk to our boss before talking to me first. Also, the only reason he thinks I'm not a "team player" because I express disagreement and make my frustrations known instead of putting on a fake smile like everybody else. Aside from that, I do as I'm asked. I'm an employee after all.

We don't work in a typical corporate environment. The company is considered a startup and we are in the tech space. It markets itself as a cool "young" company with a flat hierarchy and all that shit. Which means it's very strange to have this one team where the manager tries to play corporate manager with clear lines of authority. I mean, sure, if he wanted to have the final decision as the team lead, fine. Should he be immune to being challenged on his points and decisions? Fuck no. 

There are a number of questionable decisions he's made due to his own preferences and which he doesn't bother to check in with anyone about. For example, the standup meetings. Another, the weekly hour-long meetings. There is no reason at all it should run that long. A big chunk of it is just rattling off tasks and priorities for the next week (could this have been an email? YES), then somebody is forced to do a presentation based on their learnings that week. It's technically supposed to be a brief, casual "no pressure" presentation but who the hell actually thinks like that, I end up spending at least 2 hours on the research and preparation because I don't want to present on something trivial everyone already knows about. 

Oh, and the worst part. The enforced small talk. The worst. He always asks "What did you do on the weekend" in the Monday meeting and "What are your plans for the weekend" in the Friday meeting. I don't have any fucking plans I want to share you fool, I plan to do my laundry and catch up on sleep I missed from working in your team.


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## JBMan (Nov 3, 2020)

Go to him and explain this in a calm rational manner, that he has a misinformed opinion of the team, clarify you dont mean to insult him, but that you want to make it clear how you feel. Dont talk on anyone elses behalf, yourself only. Nothing will hurt your argument more than saying everyone agrees and then having them back down. Stay calm and polite, be friendly.

Should that fail, talk to the person above him, again, calm and rational etc etc. Possibly an alternate higher up also if they write you off.

If that fails then you hit making a formal complaint. Not just about this but about the fact you have spoken to two higher ups about it etc etc.


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## 8080 (Oct 6, 2020)

letsrunlikecrazy said:


> That said, I don't think he actually means to put anybody down. I would say he has "Dad Syndrome" where he tries to impart knowledge and wisdom on people with the *best of intentions* but fails because he comes across as *boring, repetitive, insensitive*, and *out of touch with reality*. Speaking of which, despite appearing sociable he is a poor manager which is why he is the only one who's been in the team for longer than a year. Everyone else quit. He is generally *disconnected from how team members feel*, largely because he doesn't allow them to be direct and open.





> Oh, and the worst part. The enforced *small talk*. The worst.


Some problems seem to be solvable; for a forecast it would be helpful to know his MBTI.

A. Is it likely that the manager's behaviour will change if he receives the necessary information about his shortcomings from his inferiors?

a) Is there anyone who is willing to sacrifice himself in order to give him the bad news, either as his own opinion or as the opinion of a subset of the group? Enneagram Nines aren’t exactly persons who find conflict stimulating.

aa) _Susan Cain’s Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking_ is given/sent to him with a letter pointing out the dissatisfaction and inefficiency resulting from the problems you mentioned, with the request to discuss these points at the next meeting.

bb) Less effective because the problem doesn’t receive a physical representation: Just an e-mail.

cc) A merely verbal intervention is likely to come to nothing or only solve some of the problems.

b) Are the other employees willing to give their opinion or will they pretend that everything is fine?

B. Is it likely that the manager's behaviour will change when he receives the information from his superior?

C. Since it seems to be quite an effort to change his behaviour in the desired way, what is the probability that you can get rid of him?


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## letsrunlikecrazy (Sep 21, 2015)

JBMan said:


> Go to him and explain this in a calm rational manner, that he has a misinformed opinion of the team, clarify you dont mean to insult him, but that you want to make it clear how you feel. Dont talk on anyone elses behalf, yourself only. Nothing will hurt your argument more than saying everyone agrees and then having them back down. Stay calm and polite, be friendly.


That would be the best thing to do except I am not confident I can explain everything calmly and politely or that he will not misinterpret things anyway. I would have said I'm a calm person before, but I guess with the stress of moving to a new team and having additional work due to the pandemic (the higher-ups are eager for more sales) I am having trouble regulating my emotions. I find myself being grumpy and irritable. My manager has pointed several times that I sound frustrated over the phone and it's usually true. Normally I don't get stressed that much, but when I'm stressed I have trouble hiding it.

I'm not even confident I can be perfectly calm and polite in writing. Rather, he might misinterpret the tone of the letter just based on his own biases. 

What I think I'll do instead is just be direct and honest during our one-on-one conversations, but stick to relatively shallow issues like individual decisions and certain things he said in a meeting rather than go into the deeper issues like his persona or managing style. That would keep the discussions relatively simple and brief and would be far less likely to open a can of worms. Not to mention, being relatively new I don't have that strong of a rapport with him yet and he might not trust my input regarding the bigger issues. 



> Should that fail, talk to the person above him, again, calm and rational etc etc. Possibly an alternate higher up also if they write you off.
> 
> If that fails then you hit making a formal complaint. Not just about this but about the fact you have spoken to two higher ups about it etc etc.


I may do that if I find things are getting worse and not better. Thanks for your input.


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## JBMan (Nov 3, 2020)

I would say feel free to talk about his management style, as it pertains to work, but i agree with avoiding mentioning him personally, as that is him as a person, and whilst it can affect your work, would take away from the issues and seem like a personal attack.

It might be helpful to right down what you want to talk about first so you can assess how you want to address it, before going in(obviously, dont read from the script)

Hopefully though you both find a way to come to a good compromise, because that's all life is at the end of it, Es and Is compromising on who gets to embrace their nature at that time


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## letsrunlikecrazy (Sep 21, 2015)

8080 said:


> Some problems seem to be solvable; for a forecast it would be helpful to know his MBTI.


I'm not sure of his type. When I was in the other team I casually guessed ENFP just based on vibes. He seemed like one of those stereotypically upbeat, "live, laugh, love" types who like to travel and try new things. I admit I didn't know much about ENFPs at that point, he just seemed "quirky" and rainbow-farty enough where he might fit the general description.

From working with him more closely I can see a lot of Fe. One thing I do like about him is that he is friendly and polite, at least when he's not power-tripping during group meetings. It's hard to get extremely mad at him during one-on-one discussions because he'll try to defuse the situation and make some sort of compromise. But one shitty aspect is that he's sometimes indirect about what he wants, probably because he wants to keep things nice and comfortable rather than risk starting a battle.

There are some indications he's an intuitive, like for example he seems obsessed with looking at and framing things from a "bird's eye view" rather than the "street level view." He seems very dismissive of data entry, treats it like drudgery and relegates it to the interns. But in my opinion data entry can be a very informative and useful exercise when you're trying to gain familiarity with a dataset, so I would actually do it myself a lot of the time even if I could assign it to someone else. Also, I tend to not trust people to do it "right." Based on his seeming disdain for data entry and his typical style of reviewing the data, I suspect he's one of the people who wouldn't do it right. He seems to have little patience for minutiae in general.

I also thought he might be an ESTJ, just based on his repetitiveness, some of his more bureaucratic tendencies, and overall Dad vibes. He's technically a millennial but I kind of see boomer in him.



> A. Is it likely that the manager's behaviour will change if he receives the necessary information about his shortcomings from his inferiors?
> 
> a) Is there anyone who is willing to sacrifice himself in order to give him the bad news, either as his own opinion or as the opinion of a subset of the group? Enneagram Nines aren’t exactly persons who find conflict stimulating.


I would be the closest thing to the sacrificial victim. I have spoken with a teammate about our shared grievances, and she is much more pragmatic than I am. She'd rather bear with him silently until she can safely exit, like the former teammates did. The other teammates are fresh out of school and seem to be wearing rose-colored glasses as a result.

So I can't count on my teammates to back me up, not that I'd expect them too. My strategy for now is to discuss minor issues as they arise in a friendly but straightforward manner in private. I'll try to go through all the Fe hoops like qualifying all my statements ("I mean no disrespect but...") and well, trying to be _nice_ (Canada, eh?). That way he won't feel like I'm attacking him but rather just being honest and trying to help. And frankly, I'm cool with him when he's not being managerial (I know I sounded really salty in the first post but it was mostly just venting).



> B. Is it likely that the manager's behaviour will change when he receives the information from his superior?


I'm not sure but I wouldn't bet on it. The two superiors are somewhat stereotypical dweeby techie types. They have polished enough social skills where they can make a sales pitch and stuff like that but don't seem well-equipped to handle interpersonal conflicts among employees.



> C. Since it seems to be quite an effort to change his behaviour in the desired way, what is the probability that you can get rid of him?


Very low, I imagine. It's a small company and what with the high turnover within the team, there's nobody who can replace him.


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