# Am I a 4w5 or a 9w1 ?



## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

Hi everyone,

First of all, excuse my english, since it's not my mother tongue.

Whenever I test myself, i'm typed 4w5. But 9w1 is always second. And when I read the 9 and 4 descriptions, I can relate to both !

So I'm wondering whether I convinced myself that I was a 4 because the description looks more "cool". Maybe it was a way for me to "officialize" the fact that I was special, that my emotions were deep. And being typed 9 would mean that I'm not as deep than I thought, and that people out there in the world are deeper than I. And this makes me jealous. Let me tell you that I know this is absolutely stupid, but I want to tell you precisely how I feel, even if it's stupid, si that you can see more clearly the way I function. And now it's the chaos in my head because I so wanna know what type I am, and the more I try to analyze myself, the more I loose myself.

So i'm gonna quote sentences of type 9 descriptions and say whether I relate or not, and then do the same with the type 4 description : 

So for type 9 : 

*Nines are accepting, trusting, and stable. They are usually creative, optimistic, and supportive, but can also be too willing to go along with others to keep the peace*

No, i'm not stable, i'm quite unstable. Yes I am accepting and trusting. I don't know if i'm creative. I mean, I like to talk and explain things with metaphors, but other than that, I'm not that creative. I write in a diary, but nothing creative : I write to put in words how I feel, or to explan what I did in the day. I don't have any talent. I just write to understand myself better, and to not forget. I want to be able in like 30 years to remember how I felt 30 years ago. And I'll have my diary for that. 
Am I optimistic ? I don't know. I feel both optimistic and pessimistic. I feel pessimistic for exemple because I always assume that I won't be good enough for people, that they'll find me lame, not interesting, that i'll fail my year of study... But overall I always have that voice in my head that tells me that eventually, I'll be able to go through everyting in life, that even though it's hard and there will be hard times, I'll go through it okay eventually. Si in that sense i'm positive.
Am I too wiliing to go along with others to keep the peace ? Yes and no. For exemple, i'm gay, and I don't wanna talk about it with my parents because I don't want them to see me as "pervert" and stuff. And yes, usually I adapt myself to people because I hate conflict. But I hate injustice and if i'm victim of an injustice, i'll definitely stand up for myself. And I hate feeling manipulated, and if I once feel that i'm being manipulated, it'll piss me off very hard, and I will withdraw from the person that manipulated me, hating him. But I probably won't yell at him. I'll just disapear, in a more like passive-aggressive manner.

*Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.*

Yes, I can relate to that. I want to feel peace, harmony. I want feel good. I don't like tension, I don't like anxiety.

*When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), complacent Nines suddenly become anxious and worried at Six. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), slothful, self-neglecting Nines become more self-developing and energetic, like healthy Threes.*

I can totally relate to that.

*Basic Fear: Of loss and separation*

Hum, yes. Kinda...

*Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind"*

True !



Now for the description of type 4 : 

*Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity.*

Yes, I'm self aware, sensitive and reserved. I mean, reserved with people I don't know too well. When I feel confortable around people I know, i'm not reserved anymore.
Yes, I am emotionnally honest, at least with myself. With others too, most of the time.
I'm not sure i'm creative... Like I said, I like to think in metaphors so in that sense yes. But that's it.
Yes, I am very self conscious (I have a bit of social phobia... Even tough it gets better as i'm getting older)
Yes, I withhold from others because I feel bulnerable and defective. I feel like i'm different from normal people. I feel both "special", superior to others sometimes, and inferior at the same time. Superior because i'm "special", and inferior because I also feel like I lack something. Something that most people have and that I don't. When I'm out in the street and I can totally feel depressed because I look at other guys, "normal guys", and they have that send of being someone with a personnality, with an energy, with a sense of wholeness, when I feel like i'm lacking something. LIke, people have a color and i'm transparent. It makes me feel so bad. And also, I compare myself with others all the time. In my head when i'm in the street i'm like "That man is so much more beautiful than I. That man has so much mor eenergy than I. That man looks so much more confident that I. That man has friends, he can easily talk and be liked by people,way better than I, that's why I'm alone". So I feel both inferior because of these comparisons, but at the same time I feel superior because, i'm "different" to all of thoses people. I lack something. And that lack makes me "special".
Even if I know that i'm probably not that special. I mean, i'm not stupid, I can think, and there is no reason why I would be different. But I like to think that way. Feeling different makes me feel like I have a personnality. Because, I can understand all points of view (that's a 9ish thing), i'm like always feeling like everything is relative. And because I see all points of view, I feel like I have no personality. Everyone has a color, and i'm invisible. Like a sponge that can be fueled with everyone's liquid, when I don't have my own. So that's a 9ish thing... So I don't know.

*Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
*
True. I'm scared to have no personnality. I'm scared to be empty.

*Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an
identity)*

Yes, kinda. I mean, what I want the most if getting to know myself and be true to myself all my life. But sometimes I feel like I have no personnality. I understand all points of view and all of them seem legit in a way. And I'm like, what do I think ? And I don't think anything, I don't have my own opinion because I understand all the opinions. And that makes me feel like I have no personnality. And it depresses me. I want to be someone. I want to have a color, likes everyone does.

* Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."*

Yes, I would like my individuality to be known. I'd want people to notice how "special" I am. Even though I know i'm probably not special... But, that's just how I feel, even if it's logically wrong.
Yes, I like beauty. I mean, I love beauty. I listen to music all day. Sometimes happy music, sometimes sad music. Sometimes I prefer sad music because there is some "truth" and some dark beauty in sadness that's absolutely gorgeous, deeper than happy music. And dometimes I just want happy music. So it depends.

The thing I differ when reading 4 description : I don't like to dress with a weird manner. I feel like i'm a simple man. I dress simple. I mean, it has to be beautiful, but a simple beauty. No eccentricity. But in my mind, simple doesn't mean that i'm like everyone else. I feel like we're living in a society where everyone wants to be original. So being simple and not wanting to be original, is actually a way to be original....

So what makes me think that I might be a 9 ? Well, that apathy, that lazyness that I have. I just can't put myself to work when I don't feel like it. Also, the impression that I have no personnality, that i'm flat. Also, the hate of conflict. And descriptions say that 9 don't like to dwell on their emotions contrarily to 4. And I don't know whether I like to dwell in them or not. Let me explain : I don't like feeling anxious, it's horrible. I don't like panicking, it's horrible. I don't like frustration, it's horrible. But in some ways, I like sadness. And sometimes when I feel sad I like to just lay in my bed, putting on a sad beautiful song that'll make my sadness beautiful. And then I can lay down for hours, feeling sad. And in a way I like it because that's a beautiful sadness.
The other think that makes me think I might be a 9, is that I'm very much anchored to the reality. I don't have fantasy worlds and stuff. That's so not me. I sometimes feel like a dreamer but not in the sense of having fantasy worlds. I feel like a dreamer in the sense that I'm sometimes lost in my feelings or in my thoughts. But I don't have fantasy worlds.

So, if you could please help me, thank you 

Oh also, I had the chance to take the complete RHETI test for free and here are my results : 
https://www.noelshack.com/2017-45-6-1510395365-img-20171111-111223.png


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm not accepting, trusting or stable and i'm a 9w1. Don't listen to the bland descriptions of the 9w1s. Look up the basic fears, sins and the triads and then it should be more clear. FYI, if you questioning the fact that you're a 4 then you're probably not a 4.


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

Well I'm probably a 9w1 then ! Even though I can also relate to most of the type 4 description


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

misfortuneteller said:


> FYI, if you questioning the fact that you're a 4 then you're probably not a 4.


Where on earth did you get that idea? Why would 4s be especially unlikely to question their type? I’d think they’d be more likely if anything, since they’re so focused on their identity.
@Snouker I wouldn’t worry too much about whether you think you might be a 4 because that’s what you want to be. I’m sure it does happen that some people type as what they want to be instead of what they are, but that line is used far too often around this place. Don’t forget that what we want to be partially depends on our personality; not everybody cares very much about being unique, special or deep. I’m not saying everyone who cares about those things is a 4 - people are more complicated than that - but the fact that someone has those as prominent concerns is one piece of evidence that makes a 4 typing more likely.

I was leaning a bit towards 4 when I read your post, but I’m not especially confident about that, and it wouldn’t particularly surprise me if you turned out to be a 9. It sounds like you relate quite a lot to both types, and whatever the official sources say about everyone having only one type, that might not be the way the real world works.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

still on the hunt @Snouker ? Good lad. I'd say the difference between 9's and 4's is pretty clear (to me)... sometimes its easier to see it in action than to read about it. 

I'd go check out youtube, see if you can dig something up.


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

Thanks for your replies !

So yeah I went on YouTube and I read a lot of articles on 4s and 9s.

I can definitely relate to both in a lot of ways.

My "passion" is sloth and like 9, I use narcotization (eating sugary food or listening to music) to soften my anxiety. So it sounds like 9. And like 9, I'm looking for peace and Harmony in my life. And like 9, I always understand all points of view. And like 9, I express my anger in a passive agressive manner.

But unlike 9, and like 4, I'm very self conscious and very close to my feelings. I don't ignore them, I always want to feel and understand them. And I want to understand what my feelings tell me on myself. That's a way to understand me better. The only feelings I don't like are anxiety and frustration. But I "like" sadness. And like 4, I kinda feel different from people, and lacking. And I appreciate being a misfit in some ways. And i both hate and love feeling that my life is a beautiful drama. That's also 4..

So, yeah, basically I still have no clue whether I'm a 9 or a 4.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

Octavarium said:


> Where on earth did you get that idea? Why would 4s be especially unlikely to question their type? I’d think they’d be more likely if anything, since they’re so focused on their identity.


No. 4's know about themselves more than any other type.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

Snouker said:


> Well I'm probably a 9w1 then ! Even though I can also relate to most of the type 4 description


*rolls eyes* so can I. The descriptions are irrelevant. Look at the basic fears, sins and triads like I actually suggested.


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## Octavarium (Nov 27, 2012)

@Snouker in case you find these helpful, here are some descriptions of the differences between 4s and 9s. Perhaps you could go through them and tell us what you do/don't relate to.

Riso/Hudson (from their book _Understanding The Enneagram_ and available here


* *




Some average Nines think that they are Fours because they have artistic talents and creative inclinations of one kind or another. As in the case of love not being the sole domain of Twos, artistic capacity is not the sole province of Fours. Other types can be, and often are, artists.

Even so, the artistry of Fours is much more personal and self-revealing than that of Nines. The art of Nines often expresses idealized, mythological, and archetypal worlds–usually the real world glossed into something fantastic and wondrous. Nines are often gifted storytellers in which "...and they all lived happily ever after" is assured. (There are no unhappy endings in the Nine's world of make-believe.) By contrast, the art of Fours is generally more personal and realistic, the expression of the Four's (and of everyone's) deep longing for love, wholeness, and meaning. Fours often deal in the tragic, finding redemption in self-transcendence; Nines deal in the commonplace, finding comfort in ordinary lives and simple situations.

The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.

Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life. Contrast the personalities of Mahler (a Four) and Aaron Copland (a Nine), Saul Steinberg (a Four) and Norman Rockwell (a Nine).




Beatrice Chestnut (from her book _The complete Enneagram_ and available online here


* *




Fours and Nines share some common characteristics. They can look alike because both place a great deal of importance on cultivating relationships and the achievement of connections with other people. Both types can lose themselves in relationships, although Nines do this more regularly and with more people by merging or blending with the other person’s energy, priorities, and desires. Fours can also lose their sense of self, but they only do this in extremely close relationships and through sublimating their own needs and desires to those of the other person in hopes of maintaining the close connection.

Both Fours and Nines have the capacity to understand people. Because Fours are emotionally intuitive and sensitive to the moods and feelings of others, they are able and interested in understanding them in depth. Nines are skilled, non-invasive, and nonjudgmental questioners and want everyone to be heard; they have the capacity to understand and embrace many points of views, some even more clearly than their own.

Fours and Nines can feel overlooked and often have the feeling that they are misunderstood or undervalued by others. Fours, however, most often feel misunderstood and therefore overlooked in terms of their feelings and intentions, feeling like misfits who are different and marginal to the groups they belong. Nines most often feel overlooked and therefore not understood in terms of not fully belonging or not being important enough as a person. They often have a deep concern about whether or not they belong to the group, whether it is their family or other groups.

Fours and Nines also differ in significant ways. Nines are other-referencing, while Fours are self-referencing. Nines pay attention to other people’s opinions, agendas, and moods far more than their own, putting their needs and priorities aside in favor of the needs and agendas of others. Fours emphasize and value their own internal experience, focused more on satisfying their own needs, feelings, and desires. Nines tend to be more steady and even-tempered than Fours and they avoid conflict and crave harmony between themselves and others as well as within groups. This is not a priority for Fours, who experience a wider range of intense emotions. In fact, they may even create or contribute to discord if they believe it is important for the authentic communication and the expression of feelings.

Finally, Nines are reluctant to state their preferences for several reasons. They may not know what they want or may believe that someone else’s opinions or desires are more important than their own; they don’t want to create a conflict and believe that expressing a preference can invite opposition. The Nines’ tendency to overadjust to other people – often thinking the connection will be broken that if they do not adapt to others – creates difficulties for Nines in terms of saying no, defining boundaries, and asserting themselves. By contrast, Fours believe that their opinions are of value and should be heard. They assert themselves more, adapt less often, and say no more regularly.




Daniels/Price (from their book _The Essential Enneagram_ with a version available online here


* *




. Romantics and Mediators can be considered look-alike types because they are both relationship-oriented, caring, and empathic. Both can get lost or absorbed in their circumstances, feel deficient, become self-deprecating, and, lose their impetus for action. They differ in that Mediators are oriented toward others and like to blend in and keep life steady in order to feel comfortable and avoid conflict. Romantics, by contrast, are oriented toward themselves, are attached to being special or extraordinary, and readily go to extremes or depths of emotions in order to feel vital and alive.




Herb Pearce (from his book _Enneagram Beyond the Basics_


* *




The sexual subtype 9, particularly women, almost always think they are 4s. 9s want peace and harmony but often get drawn to situations and people who are intense, often 4s who are anything but calm and peaceful. They bring out the hidden intensity of the 9. 9s tend to imitate other types they are in relationship with. 9s can be filled with anxiety, sadness, pain and anger like anyone else, though tend to hide feelings, particularly anger, more than 4s. 9s always prefer peace, calmness and evenness as their stabilizing energy. 9s are okay repeating the same thing over and over if it feels good. 4s go for more depth and something new or more strongly expressed. 4s push the edge more and will go for intensity and heightened engagement over calmness. 9s generally prefer things relatively even keeled and 4s can get bored with the same thing or too much calm. 4s react more to their upsets and personal conflicts, both inner and outer. Both types can blame and be victims if not at optimal functioning. 4s often want to be calmer appearing like 9s and 9s seek more depth and passion like the 4s. 4s are more passionate and expressive in general whereas 9s tend to make “molehills out of mountains” and downplay their inner experience and depth of feeling. 4s can make mountains out of molehills for attention and heightened intensity. 4s seem more crisis oriented.


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

misfortuneteller said:


> *rolls eyes* so can I. The descriptions are irrelevant. Look at the basic fears, sins and triads like I actually suggested.


I looked up the basic fears here :
https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pr...confused-about-your-enneagram-type-read-this/

I can relate to both the 4 and 9 basic fear. I can't see one being dominant. The 4s basic fear actually feels more like me immediately, but when I actually think, the 9 basic fear is very true too.

I looked up the sins here :
Discover Your Core Sin - Fours: The Need to be Special (Envy and Fantasy) - Beliefnet

The 4s sin definitely describes me.
But then I read the 9, and it also describes me !

For the triads, I looked them up here :
Enneagram: Triads and Primary Emotions | Life Arts Media

I honestly can relate to both the body and the heart triads. Though I right relate a bit more to the heart triad, because I'm almost never angry, and I don't feel like I repress my anger like the 9 does, I feel like I'm simple rarely angry... (So yeah you might say that's because I'm not even aware of it... But I don't think so. I'm simply not angry most of the time)


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

misfortuneteller said:


> No. 4's know about themselves more than any other type.


That is a delusion, though.

4s believe they know themselves, and they obsess about knowing themselves, but the things they "know" are usually kind of shallow and get in the way of real understanding. So one way that could manifest is by going through phases of "THIS is me!" "no THAT is me!" "now I really understand..." And it's kind of an epiphany treadmill.

It's like how 2s don't always actually help anyone. They think they're helpful. Sometimes they help and sometimes they don't help, but what makes them a 2 is they always _think_ they're helping.


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

Octavarium said:


> @Snouker in case you find these helpful, here are some descriptions of the differences between 4s and 9s. Perhaps you could go through them and tell us what you do/don't relate to.
> 
> Riso/Hudson (from their book _Understanding The Enneagram_ and available here
> 
> ...


Thank you !

*Some average 9 think that they're 4s because they avec artistic talents or creative inclinations*

=> Thta's not the reason why I think I may be a 4... I don't have artistic talents. I think I'm a 4 because I identify quite a lot to my emotions, because I feel different, even if i'm within a group and there is harmony, I still feel different somehow. And also because of this feel of lacking something consistent that most of people have. Like something is missing in me.

*Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nine, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them*

Hum... Well, I withdrow from others because I feel anxious around people. So i withdraw in order to feel secure. Why am I anxious around people ? Because I'm scared that peopled might end up seeing how "flawed" (I guess that's my "difference") and fragile I really am deep inside. If I go to a party, I'm scared because I don't know how I will have to behave, I will feel anxious and i'm scared people will see that i'm anxious, and I won't be natural. And I'm scared people might see my flaws and eventually see me as uninteresting. And if that happens, I'll feel a tremendous shame and the deep feeling of being worthless. So I withdraw to feel secure.... I feel like that's both 4 and 9. But I let you judge.

*Fours withdrow from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines in the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset*

Both is true to me... I withdraw to protect myself, to give me time dealing with my emotions, and I remove my attention from people and situations that threaten me, disengaging emotionally so that I will not be anxious or upset.....

*Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain*

Here I think I relate more to the 4. I am detached from the external world, but not from my emotions. I mean, ok, I eat sugary foods and stuff to soften my anxiety (Is it a way to detach from my emotions??? ) But If i'm feeling sad for example, I will not detach, I will definitely feel that emotion and sometimes even amplify it with sad music. What I like with sad music is that it makes sadness beautiful, so bearable, and even sometimes, likable.

*Nines see the world through rose colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted : everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life*

Well I relate to both. I see the world through rose colored glasses in the sense that I often feel like the world is a magical poetry. Everything outside is like a poem, and great moving never ending painting. But I definitely see the world from a window, as an outsider and everyone seems to live a happier, more normal life.

*Both types can lose themselves in relationships, although nines do this more regularly and with more people by merging or blending with the other person's energy, priorities, and desires. Fours can also lose their sense of self, but they only do this in extremely close relationships*

Here I am more like a 4. I can't lose myself in relationships that aren't extremely close. I can't lose myself in friendships. I can only lose myself when I'm in love (so not everyday...)

*Because 4s are emotionally intuitive and sensitive to the moods and feelings of others, they are able and interested in understanding them in depth. Nines are skilled, non invasive, and nonjudgmental questioners and want everyone to be heard; they have the capacity to understand and embrace many points of views, some even more clearly than their own.*

I relate to both of them, really... Though i'm much more at ease with my own feelings than with others feeling. I can understand other's feelings, but I never feel like I can do anything about it. I mean, when I'm sad, no one can actually makes me feel better. I have to withdraw from everyone, feel my sadness, and eventually it'll go away. 
And when they say that I understand peoples points of view better than mine, it's totally true : Most of the time I don't have a strong opinion because I know every opinion has some truth attached to it. So why would I pick an opinion and reject all the others when I think there is some truth in the others too ? That's very 9ish I guess.

*4s and 9s can feel overlooked and often have the feeling that they are misunderstood or undervalued by others. Fours, however, most often feel misunderstood and therefore overlooked in terms of their feelings and intentions. Feeling misfits who are different and marginal to the groupes they belong. Nines most often feel overlooked and therefore not understood in terms of not fully belonging ot not being important enough as a person*

I relate to both... I can't really tell which one describes me better here.

*Nines pay attention to other people's opinions, agendas and moods far more than their own, putting their needs and priorities aside in favor of the needs and agendas of others. Four emphasize and value their own internal experience, focused more on satisfying their own needs, feelings and desires*

Well here i'm kind of a mix of both description : When I'm around people, I pay attention to other peopl's opinions more than to mine, because like I said I often feel anxious around people, so i'm way too much concerned about how they feel around me, how they perceive me. So in that sense i pay much attention to how they feel. But like 4s, I definitely don't put my needs, feelings and priorities aside in favor of the priorities of the other. Nope, my priorities stay my priorities. Like 4, I emphasize and value my own internal experience, and i'm focused more on satisfying my own needs, feelings and desire.

*Nines are reluctant to state their preferences for several reasons. They may not know what they want or may believe that someone else's opinions or desires are more important that their own; they don't want to create a conflict and believe that expressing a preference can invite opposition. The nine's tendency to overadjust to other people - often thinking the connection will be broken if they do not adapt to others - creates difficulties for nines in terms of saying no, defining boudaries, and asserting themselves. By contract, fours believe that their opinions are of value and should be heard. They assert themselves more, adapt less often, and say no more regularly*

Here again i'm a mix of the the two.... Like 9s, I'm reluctant to state preferences when I don't have a strong opinion, or when I think it might end up in a conflict (I hate conflict) or when I feel like It could be too shameful. (But it doesn't mean I'm ashamed of my opinions. I value them, but I know some people might think my opinions are shameful, because they're dumb or whatever, and I pay too much attention to what people think of me to take the risk to say something they might think is shameful). So the 9 description here definitely fits me. The only thing very different is that I don't think people's opinions or desires are more important than mine. HELL NO ! My desires and opinions are as important as everyone else's. And I can be very angry if somehow someone tell me otherwise. I hate being dispised, and that's one of the rare things that can really make me angry.

And like the 4, when I have a strong opinion about something (It means when I'm quite confident what I think is right) then I value it and I want it to be heard. And I will not adapt to an opinion that I think is wrong. I like truth, and I can't adapt to lies or errors.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

Snouker said:


> I looked up the basic fears here :
> https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pr...confused-about-your-enneagram-type-read-this/
> 
> I can relate to both the 4 and 9 basic fear. I can't see one being dominant. The 4s basic fear actually feels more like me immediately, but when I actually think, the 9 basic fear is very true too.
> ...


Well, I relate to envy too but not as much as I do with sloth. Everyone has envy. The 4 just has an abnormal amount of envy like a 9 would have abnormal amounts of sloth. I'm more of the latter hence why i'm a 9w1. You should check all the triads then not just the main ones. See if you are in the reactive triad or positive outlook triad that may help a little.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

spiderfrommars said:


> That is a delusion, though.
> 
> 4s believe they know themselves, and they obsess about knowing themselves, but the things they "know" are usually kind of shallow and get in the way of real understanding. So one way that could manifest is by going through phases of "THIS is me!" "no THAT is me!" "now I really understand..." And it's kind of an epiphany treadmill.


Interesting. I guess that's probably why a lot of them hate to admit that they crave attention.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

Snouker said:


> *Some average 9 think that they're 4s because they avec artistic talents or creative inclinations*


I've been actually called a 4 because of my creativity. I found it insulting cause they're basically the reason why so many people want to claim to be 4s, 5s or 8s cause 1s, 6s and 9s are so underrated.


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

misfortuneteller said:


> I've been actually called a 4 because of my creativity. I found it insulting cause they're basically the reason why so many people want to claim to be 4s, 5s or 8s cause 1s, 6s and 9s are so underrated.


Yes! The association of creativity with 4 is the worst one in my opinion, but the 5/intelligence and 8/strength associations are also quite bad. Those qualities are much too broad and vague to be given to any type, and can be a part of any type's fixation. Creativity, especially, is part of what it means to be human. They are also personal strengths that you can have without any compulsions or negative things attached to them.

One of the things that really irritates me is when 9/4 contrasts basically say “oh, well 9s _think_ they’re deep and creative…” or in the 5/9 contrast it was basically “they _think_ they’re an intellectual…” How is that going to help people type themselves correctly? 




Snouker said:


> Hum... Well, I withdrow from others because I feel anxious around people. So i withdraw in order to feel secure. Why am I anxious around people ? Because I'm scared that peopled might end up seeing how "flawed" (I guess that's my "difference") and fragile I really am deep inside. If I go to a party, I'm scared because I don't know how I will have to behave, I will feel anxious and i'm scared people will see that i'm anxious, and I won't be natural.


Superficially, themes of “security” and anxiety make me think more attachment triad, with its line to 6. I notice a lot of references to anxiety, security, threaten in your posts. If you don’t mind sharing, do you have an anxiety disorder? Disintegrating to a head type, especially 6, would make sense for you, but if you have an anxiety disorder or something then it’s not relevant to type.

That’s something to take a look at in your considerations: 9 disintegrates to 6, whereas 4 disintegrates to 2. Which do you think might be your line of disintegration?




> And I'm scared people might see my flaws and eventually see me as uninteresting. And if that happens, I'll feel a tremendous shame and the deep feeling of being worthless. So I withdraw to feel secure.... I feel like that's both 4 and 9. But I let you judge.


Why uninteresting? Do you see yourself that way?




> I mean, ok, I eat sugary foods and stuff to soften my anxiety (Is it a way to detach from my emotions??? )


Yes, this could be an example of narcotization. Thinking about those I know in real life, the 6w5 indulges in comfort food at lot more than the 9w8, who zones out in other ways, so this relationship to food isn’t inherently 9, but it certainly could be.




> But If i'm feeling sad for example, I will not detach, I will definitely feel that emotion and sometimes even amplify it with sad music. What I like with sad music is that it makes sadness beautiful, so bearable, and even sometimes, likable.


As I understand it, this is more 4ish. 




> Well I relate to both. I see the world through rose colored glasses in the sense that I often feel like the world is a magical poetry. Everything outside is like a poem, and great moving never ending painting. But I definitely see the world from a window, as an outsider and everyone seems to live a happier, more normal life.


Do you know why others seem to be happier and more normal? Is there anything in particular about you that keeps you behind the window?




> Here I am more like a 4. I can't lose myself in relationships that aren't extremely close. I can't lose myself in friendships. I can only lose myself when I'm in love (so not everyday...)


I would consider sx9.




> I relate to both of them, really... Though i'm much more at ease with my own feelings than with others feeling. I can understand other's feelings, but I never feel like I can do anything about it. I mean, when I'm sad, no one can actually makes me feel better. I have to withdraw from everyone, feel my sadness, and eventually it'll go away.


That’s definitely something I could see for both types--I think it might be a withdrawn triad thing, actually.




> And when they say that I understand peoples points of view better than mine, it's totally true : Most of the time I don't have a strong opinion because I know every opinion has some truth attached to it. So why would I pick an opinion and reject all the others when I think there is some truth in the others too ? That's very 9ish I guess.


Yes: this sounds 9ish.



> *4s and 9s can feel overlooked and often have the feeling that they are misunderstood or undervalued by others. Fours, however, most often feel misunderstood and therefore overlooked in terms of their feelings and intentions. Feeling misfits who are different and marginal to the groupes they belong. Nines most often feel overlooked and therefore not understood in terms of not fully belonging ot not being important enough as a person*
> 
> I relate to both... I can't really tell which one describes me better here.


Yeah, it sort of describes them both as “not belonging” so that’s not very helpful. Could you talk a little more about how you feel misunderstood?




> (I hate conflict)


Why?




> I hate being despised, and that's one of the rare things that can really make me angry.


Again, why...what about being despised do you hate so much?




> And like the 4, when I have a strong opinion about something (It means when I'm quite confident what I think is right) then I value it and I want it to be heard. And I will not adapt to an opinion that I think is wrong. I like truth, and I can't adapt to lies or errors.


So something about this does not quite sound like an image type. I think it’s the focus on the truth, rather than on yourself--you want _this truth_ to be seen, rather than wanting yourself to be seen and identified with it. Your focus is on communicating something other than the self.


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

> Superficially, themes of “security” and anxiety make me think more attachment triad, with its line to 6. I notice a lot of references to anxiety, security, threaten in your posts. If you don’t mind sharing, do you have an anxiety disorder? Disintegrating to a head type, especially 6, would make sense for you, but if you have an anxiety disorder or something then it’s not relevant to type.
> 
> That’s something to take a look at in your considerations: 9 disintegrates to 6, whereas 4 disintegrates to 2. Which do you think might be your line of disintegration?


Hum, I never went asking a doctor but I do have an anxiety disorder, that's obvious to me, yes. My anxiety is beyond what is normal in a lot of circumstances.

Well usually I think my line of disintegration is 6. But when I'm in a relationship, my line of desintegration is more like 2 : I start being possessive, jealous as hell, hypersensitive to what the person might tell me. The boyfriends I had always told me they felt like they were walking on eggshells with me because a wrong word they said could make me sad instantly.



> Why uninteresting? Do you see yourself that way?


Well, here it is quite bizarre : I both tend to feel superioir to others because of the fact that I feel "différent", so special. But I'm also scared to be inferior and uninteresting. Being uninteresting is absolutely horrible. It means being nothing. It's almost a synonym of non existence to me. So, yeah, I both feel superioir and inferior. And I'm scared to be uninteresting. But actually, even if people think i'm uninteresting, It'll hurt me but at the same time I'll be like "Well, if he thinks i'm uninteresting it means that he's not capable of appreciating my beauty". 



> Do you know why others seem to be happier and more normal? Is there anything in particular about you that keeps you behind the window?


I don't even know why. I just feel like it. 
What keeps me behind the window ? My insecurity I guess. I feel lacking. The way I see it is everyone has a color. That particular color is his personnality. And i'm transparent. No color. Something lacking. I feel insecure.



> Yeah, it sort of describes them both as “not belonging” so that’s not very helpful. Could you talk a little more about how you feel misunderstood?


Well, I feel like i'm overlooked because I can't have people understand exactly how I feel. I feel like if i could make them feel how I feel, they'll admire me, or they'll start thinking I'm very interesting. I know this is objectively stupid. I know it. But that's just how I feel... Maybe I like ti think there is something deep in the way I feel. Maybe that's a way for me to compensate the fact that I feel lacking....

*Why do I hate conflict ? *

I fear conflict like I fear any life threatening situation. I feel insecure so I feel fragile. And when there is a conflict coming, I feel like i could be internally destroyed. I'm scared I might be harmed or destroyed, physically or morally. It triggers my anxiety.
But if I feel like i'm victim of an injustice or if I feel like i'm being despised, then I can definitely launch a conflict because my angriness will be stronger than my fear of conflict.



> Again, why...what about being despised do you hate so much?


I cannot stand being despised because being despised means that the other person see me as inferior to him, he sees me as less important. And I absolutely hate that. I can't stand people who believe they're superior to me. And I despise people that despise me.



> So something about this does not quite sound like an image type. I think it’s the focus on the truth, rather than on yourself--you want this truth to be seen, rather than wanting yourself to be seen and identified with it. Your focus is on communicating something other than the self.


Well, yes I like the truth to be said, and if no one says it, I may be the one saying it.
But i also pay attention to my image. For example, I like to express in metaphors my inner world to people, hoping that they'll somehow be impressed by the beauty or complexity of my inner world. I know this might sound stupid but... Tht's how I feel.


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## Lady Golden (May 16, 2012)

I'm gonna give a try !



> I don't know if i'm creative. I mean, I like to talk and explain things with metaphors, but other than that, I'm not that creative. I write in a diary, but nothing creative : I write to put in words how I feel, or to explan what I did in the day. I don't have any talent. I just write to understand myself better, and to not forget. I want to be able in like 30 years to remember how I felt 30 years ago. And I'll have my diary for that.


4 are too much accounted for being the "most creative type" and exaggeratedly eccentric people. Which is usually BS. 
4 tend to be creative because they tend to fantasize themselves, and because creativity can be a good way to actualize themselves too. But they are not always creative in the most common sense. The cliché might come from the fact 4 embodies the artistic temperament cliché the best : never satisfied with themselves,, longing, elitist, and so on. 
Other types can be just as creative as them, but their reasons are different.



> Even if I know that i'm probably not that special. I mean, i'm not stupid, I can think, and there is no reason why I would be different. But I like to think that way. Feeling different makes me feel like I have a personnality. Because, I can understand all points of view (that's a 9ish thing), i'm like always feeling like everything is relative. And because I see all points of view, I feel like I have no personality. Everyone has a color, and i'm invisible. Like a sponge that can be fueled with everyone's liquid, when I don't have my own. So that's a 9ish thing... So I don't know.





> I relate to both of them, really... Though i'm much more at ease with my own feelings than with others feeling. I can understand other's feelings, but I never feel like I can do anything about it. I mean, when I'm sad, no one can actually makes me feel better. I have to withdraw from everyone, feel my sadness, and eventually it'll go away.
> And when they say that I understand peoples points of view better than mine, it's totally true : Most of the time I don't have a strong opinion because I know every opinion has some truth attached to it. So why would I pick an opinion and reject all the others when I think there is some truth in the others too ? That's very 9ish I guess.


This sound both 4 and 9... 
I guess you have both in your tritype (probably 469), but I'd say you have to find which one incorporates the other in terms of motivations.

And you have to find which are your main centers as well :

4 and 9 are :
- Withdrawn (Ego) types 

4 is :
- Emotional center
- A reactive type

9 is :
- Gut center (though repressed)
- A positive type

4 will mostly dwell in their emotions.
9 are more ambiguous : their gut center is dominant, yet repressed. Anger is their main theme (for 4, it would be image), but they spend their energy repressing it, to the point they usually aren't aware of it. They can have a strong image center but there still will be this force before it. 

Also, 4 are reactive type : in conflict, they can't help expressing their emotions. When offensed, when they feel their image is shattered, they will most likely withdraw to deal with their feelings.
As for 9, as a positive type, they tend to refuse the conflict itself, making them passive-agressive. They usually won't be hurt in the same way as 4 because they refuse it. They will withdraw to feel better (while a 4 will ofte, make himself feeling worse in this process). 
I am under the impression that 4 can feel too intense, too temperamental to 9. It can be focused on a few subjects only (regarding identity), but 4 will react strongly to those and 9 will usually find it draining and difficult to understand (but maybe it's less true for 4 and 6 fixed 9).



> 4s believe they know themselves, and they obsess about knowing themselves, but the things they "know" are usually kind of shallow and get in the way of real understanding. So one way that could manifest is by going through phases of "THIS is me!" "no THAT is me!" "now I really understand..." And it's kind of an epiphany treadmill.


THAT is ME ! :shocked:



> Here I think I relate more to the 4. I am detached from the external world, but not from my emotions. I mean, ok, I eat sugary foods and stuff to soften my anxiety (Is it a way to detach from my emotions??? ) But If i'm feeling sad for example, I will not detach, I will definitely feel that emotion and sometimes even amplify it with sad music. What I like with sad music is that it makes sadness beautiful, so bearable, and even sometimes, likable.


4 can over-indulge in food (or something else, spend too much money, ...) when unhealthy. In my case, when I've spent a bad day, I will usually order some food I like (not something ordinary), or buy something to compensate. It's a way to have a quality experience in a life that is too dull.
But in 9, it would be narcotization, without this elitist streak.



> Here I am more like a 4. I can't lose myself in relationships that aren't extremely close. I can't lose myself in friendships. I can only lose myself when I'm in love (so not everyday...)


But how strong is this tendency ? Do you find it difficult to know who you are, then ?



> I fear conflict like I fear any life threatening situation. I feel insecure so I feel fragile. And when there is a conflict coming, I feel like i could be internally destroyed. I'm scared I might be harmed or destroyed, physically or morally. It triggers my anxiety.
> But if I feel like i'm victim of an injustice or if I feel like i'm being despised, then I can definitely launch a conflict because my angriness will be stronger than my fear of conflict.


What makes you angry ? Injustice by itself ? the fear of losing your integrity ? Or the fact they damage your self-image ?


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

> never satisfied with themselves,, longing, elitist, and so on.


That is so me : Never satisfied with myself, longing, both feeling inferior and superior (elitist in that sense)


> 4 will mostly dwell in their emotions.
> 9 are more ambiguous : their gut center is dominant, yet repressed. Anger is their main theme (for 4, it would be image), but they spend their energy repressing it, to the point they usually aren't aware of it. They can have a strong image center but there still will be this force before it.
> 
> Also, 4 are reactive type : in conflict, they can't help expressing their emotions. When offensed, when they feel their image is shattered, they will most likely withdraw to deal with their feelings.
> ...


I honestly can't tell which one is more me.
But when you say that when offensed, when their image is shatterds, 4 will withdraw to deal with their emotions while 9 will withdra to feel better, then i'm definitely a 4 : When I feel like my image is shattered, I feel sad/depressed, and I withdraw so that everyone let me alone so that I can feel the sadness I have. I don't like people trying to comfort me when I'm feeling bad. I need to feel the pain and the sadness without people interfering in the process. I can only go back to people when the sadness has fainted, which can take hours or days.



> But how strong is this tendency ? Do you find it difficult to know who you are, then ?


It's more like I find it difficult to know what I want. Usually I want to be in a relationship, and when I'm in a relationship, things just don't feel right. I'm scared I won't be good enough, I'm scared I won't be pretty enough to be loved, not interesting enough... So I become jealous, possessive, I want to be the most important person in the man's life, I get hypersensitive. I mean, real relationships aren't what my fantasies were, obviously. And I often end up breaking up before the other person has the chance to break up. I mean, really, I often say to myself that men that want to be in a relationship with me are going to go through hell with me. Unfortunately.
And, yeah, I just feel like I don't know what I want when I'm in a relationship.



> What makes you angry ? Injustice by itself ? the fear of losing your integrity ? Or the fact they damage your self-image ?


The three of them. I hate injustice, it makes me angry by itself.
I also fear losing my integrity, and I'm scared they might damage my self image.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

what do you say about this:


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

Snouker said:


> Hum, I never went asking a doctor but I do have an anxiety disorder, that's obvious to me, yes. My anxiety is beyond what is normal in a lot of circumstances.


OK. I’m not going to assume that’s too type related then.



> Well usually I think my line of disintegration is 6. But when I'm in a relationship, my line of desintegration is more like 2 : I start being possessive, jealous as hell, hypersensitive to what the person might tell me. The boyfriends I had always told me they felt like they were walking on eggshells with me because a wrong word they said could make me sad instantly.


Yeah. This fits ->2 for sure. 

Why do you say you usually think your line of disintegration is 6? Just the anxiety, or something else?



> Well, here it is quite bizarre : I both tend to feel superioir to others because of the fact that I feel "différent", so special. But I'm also scared to be inferior and uninteresting. Being uninteresting is absolutely horrible. It means being nothing. It's almost a synonym of non existence to me. So, yeah, I both feel superioir and inferior. And I'm scared to be uninteresting. But actually, even if people think i'm uninteresting, It'll hurt me but at the same time I'll be like "Well, if he thinks i'm uninteresting it means that he's not capable of appreciating my beauty".


Themes of “uninteresting” fit both 9 and 4, but this sounds much more like a 4 way of talking about it. Your focus is entirely on the other, on how you will be seen. It seems like your “uninteresting” is a variation on the 4 concern of “ordinary; not special” 



> What keeps me behind the window ? My insecurity I guess. I feel lacking. The way I see it is everyone has a color. That particular color is his personnality. And i'm transparent. No color. Something lacking. I feel insecure.


Okay, I’m having two conflicting thoughts here: this sense of lacking and insecurity is very 4ish, so I see it from that angle. On the other hand, you specifically phrase it in terms of transparency, lacking color--this seems to fit 9’s disconnection with their sense of self.

Again, though, staying on the 4 side.



> Well, I feel like i'm overlooked because I can't have people understand exactly how I feel. I feel like if i could make them feel how I feel, they'll admire me, or they'll start thinking I'm very interesting. I know this is objectively stupid. I know it. But that's just how I feel... Maybe I like ti think there is something deep in the way I feel. Maybe that's a way for me to compensate the fact that I feel lacking....


Certainly sounds like 4 themes. The strong desire/need to be understood. That’s human of course, but it's the obsession of 4.



> I fear conflict like I fear any life threatening situation. I feel insecure so I feel fragile. And when there is a conflict coming, I feel like i could be internally destroyed. I'm scared I might be harmed or destroyed, physically or morally. It triggers my anxiety.


I’m guessing this is as much anxiety disorder as type. Also, you’re INFP, which in socionics has Se-PoLR, making conflicts and aggression difficult for them and an area of vulnerability.

All that said, this way of fearing conflict does not sound especially 9 to me. I don’t associate fragility with 9--rather, 9 fears that they will destroy something lovely and harmonious in the external world. (The connection to another, the atmosphere, whatever.)

How do you mean, destroyed morally?



> But if I feel like i'm victim of an injustice or if I feel like i'm being despised, then I can definitely launch a conflict because my angriness will be stronger than my fear of conflict.


Do you also rise like this to defend another who is the victim of injustice/is despised, or are you inspired only when you are the victim?



> I cannot stand being despised because being despised means that the other person see me as inferior to him, he sees me as less important. And I absolutely hate that. I can't stand people who believe they're superior to me. And I despise people that despise me.


Seems a bit 4 > 9 to me. Very wounded animal language. 9s would also dislike someone thinking they’re superior--I mean everyone would--but you want to reverse the relationship by despising them back, which gives me envy vibes.



> Well, yes I like the truth to be said, and if no one says it, I may be the one saying it.


Sure.

I realized the emphasis on “the truth” and if things are going unsaid could potentially be reactive type, as well. How do you feel about reactive vs attachment triad? 



> But i also pay attention to my image. For example, I like to express in metaphors my inner world to people, hoping that they'll somehow be impressed by the beauty or complexity of my inner world. I know this might sound stupid but... Tht's how I feel.


It’s not stupid. I think it sounds more 4, not because your inner world is beautiful/complex, but because of your belief that if others knew you better they’d find you fascinating. 9s tend to undersell how important or interesting they could be to others, regardless of their relationship to their own inner world. Also with the integration to 3, they want to be appreciated for accomplishing something that may grow out of their inner world, but is also tangible--not simply for being.

I’m leaning toward 4. I definitely think you have both in your tritype.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

spiderfrommars said:


> That is a delusion, though.


what is the delusion for 6s and 9s?


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

misfortuneteller said:


> what is the delusion for 6s and 9s?


6 -- There exists a fundamental truth/absolutely trustworthy person/perfect law/perfect system that will withstand any test and I can then have absolute faith in. (The idea that faith should be earned is in itself part of the delusion--like how 2s believe love must be earned. Maybe the concept of "earned" relates to superego types?)

9 -- A lack of conflict or struggle is the same as being connected (with people, but also with the environment in general).

I think most types have multiple delusions so there are more I didn't list here but I think those are the most central.


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## misfortuneteller (Apr 4, 2015)

spiderfrommars said:


> 6 -- There exists a fundamental truth/absolutely trustworthy person/perfect law/perfect system that will withstand any test and I can then have absolute faith in. (The idea that faith should be earned is in itself part of the delusion--like how 2s believe love must be earned. Maybe the concept of "earned" relates to superego types?)
> 
> 9 -- A lack of conflict or struggle is the same as being connected (with people, but also with the environment in general).
> 
> I think most types have multiple delusions so there are more I didn't list here but I think those are the most central.


why haven't you written a book? these explanations are gold!


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## Snouker (Nov 14, 2015)

Hey everyone.

Thank you for all your answers.

So yeah, now I'm pretty sure I'm a 4. 
I probably have both 4 and 9 in my tritype though.

I made my mum (who's probably the person who knows me the best) read the 4 and 9 personnality, and she told me that I was a 4 without a doubt.

I've also been hanging in some type 4 forums, and... Well, they're like me !


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## Lady Golden (May 16, 2012)

Yes actually 4 seems to fit you, from the beginning. Even if you may have many 9 characteristics, you often seem to spontaneously mention some feelings and experiences that are directly tied to 4 (envy, etc)... While many self-typed 4 I know won't.
You do seem in touch with your feelings, too.


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