# What NF am I?



## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

ThisIsWhereIrunAway said:


> Hmmm Fe can make negative judgments im pretty sure.... and often. I also have an ENFJ friend who isn't very into ..... you know.... small talk and social niceties. I dunno if that means you suck at Fe though.


True. I guess I should say, I suck at certain aspects of Fe that I am very aware of because I wish I was better at them, but I just can't bring myself to be, and those aspects seem to be more associated with ESFJs and Enneagram 2s.



ThisIsWhereIrunAway said:


> And about my analysis into what you guys were talking about....sorry about making a judgment without reading everything again. IIII need to stop that.


I don't think so. Your insights have been very helpful so far. Whatever you're doing, keep doing it.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

In my personal experience with types IRL, I find that Se doms are the ones that seem most ADHD. They are usually all over the place (doing this! doing that! doing this! doing that!) so they can gather as much info from Se as possible. I went out with an ESTP for 3 years who was so ADHD that medication did not work. If he took enough for it to actually work he would fall asleep.

Now that ThisIsWhereIrunAway said it, You do seem to make the judjment of the info more quickly. It was actually bothering me slightly that you were not wallowing in it a little longer so you could find the best conclusion. I was trying to keep up with you because of this and wondering why you kept running away in a direction so quickly. If this were real life I would be able to slow you down and control it a bit by asking you question after question in a row, gather the info and sit on it myself until I found what I was looking for and then start giving the info back to you organized in a way where you could see what I was able to see. 

On that alone, I am VERY tempted to say you are an judjement dom.

Have you ever read this article? http://personalitycafe.com/infj-articles/19817-many-faces-infj.html


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Now this is so far one of the best threads I've followed in a while. 

I think I'll just listen from here, and let Rosebier's judgment work out. I admit to jumping to conclusions to quickly on my last post, and realize you're delving deeper than I have patience to do atm.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Rosebier said:


> Have you ever read this article? http://personalitycafe.com/infj-articles/19817-many-faces-infj.html


Yes, I came across it a few years ago, and to be honest, I originally dismissed it because it came from what clearly looked to be an INTP impossibility explosion... the kind where they come up with a bunch of tangential pattern spam that has no actual practicality, then insist that it is fact. This was also at a time when INTPs and ENTPs were annoying the hell out of me because I hadn't come to understand how their minds work yet. 

Ironically though, I met a guy at a coffee shop last week who claimed he was an INFJ, even though he seemed very ENFJ to me, who mentioned this article. That's twice in one week it's been mentioned, so I'll take a deeper look at it, even though I'm going to be looking at it with the slant that it was written with Ne and Ti.

However, there is another article I once read by an INTP where the author laid out the body language, facial expression, and mannerisms of the various cognitive functions, and it was astonishingly accurate. I wish I could find it, but I have no idea where it was. I mention it to say that I don't think all INTPs are inherently wrong, just that they have the capacity to generate possibilities, whether or not they are accurate.

When I wake up more, I will read the article you linked again and see if I have a different perspective on it.

*Edit:* I just re-read it, and it makes an excellent amount of sense that is alarmingly accurate in my case, especially when you consider that these are all simply modes of INFJ depending on the degree of lean on any of the cognitive functions. I can see myself in a lot of these modes, especially Ni's ability to transform itself. I speak 11 languages (basic conversational) and native speakers often assume I am fluent due to my accents and body language. There's also not an English speaking accent I can't imitate to a degree that fools a native speaker, even regional accents from other nations. All I have to do is be around someone with that accent for a few moments, and I can imitate their demeanor and mannerisms to a freakish degree. Give me a few hours or days, and I can _be_ that person. I'd never really associated this with cognitive functions, but I can see it now.

While I can see elements of all of these modes in myself, especially as developmental phases in my life, I'm definitely this one right now...



> The SP Wannabe:
> 
> “Let me tell you a little something about the universe. Fuck you.”
> 
> Nobody expects the SP wannabe! They are the face of INFJ that as soon as most people see, they automatically think “ESTP”. Little do they know there is a massive worldview and understanding of human kind and natural law behind that rough and tumble exterior. They are by in large the most in your face and Alpha Male/Female you can get with the INFJ breed. It is actually quite normal and even common for all personality types to have a fetishy relationship with their inferior function. For the INFJ, this fetish comes in the flavor of Se. They go out into the world, grab Se by the balls, and show the world who’s in charge. This is how they master their shadow, by fighting it head on becoming their Shadow’s master. Most if not all INFJs take on the aspect of the SP wannabe for at least brief periods of time. It could be through martial arts, racing, cooking, a good friend of mine does it through Hula Hooping. It is all a part of learning how to live in the now. Some INFJs take this fetish to a whole new level, almost fascinated with the sensations; Retelling stories emphasizing every gory detail they can remember in full detail.


This approach to INFJ modes also ties in very well with these points about dominant - tertiary function loops (even though these descriptions take things to an exaggerated extreme to illustrate their points...)



> ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends.
> 
> ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder. These types are socially incompetent for lack of trying, because they see little to no value in significant interaction with others. They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.


Yeah, that's more accurate than I remembered. I've learned a lot since I'd originally read it. I guess the real question is whether or not these modes could also apply to an ENFJ.



penchant said:


> Now this is so far one of the best threads I've followed in a while.
> 
> I think I'll just listen from here, and let Rosebier's judgment work out. I admit to jumping to conclusions to quickly on my last post, and realize you're delving deeper than I have patience to do atm.


That's too bad. I've appreciated your insight, but at least if you're lurking you might add some more later. :happy:


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

This thread lead to a very interesting observation about cognitive function preferences, so I'm going to reconstruct it and clarify it to an overly analytical degree.

While many of us have seen the formula for cognitive function preferences displayed as such... 

Ne > Ti > Fe > Si

... there seem to be few detailed explanations of what this actually means. At surface value, it is easy to misinterpret this formula as Ni is stronger than Fe is stronger than Ti is stronger than Se. It is also easy to make the induction that Ni is more developed than Fe is more developed Ti is more developed Se. 

However, what this formula actually expresses is how each cognitive function is subjugate to it's former. Using the above example, Fe is subjugate to Ni. Ti is subjugate to Fe. Se is subjugate to Ti. This isn't exactly synonymous with one function being stronger than another, or one function being better developed than another. Even though this is often the case, the distinction is important because these statements are the effects of the actual cause. And that cause is functions being subjugate to one another. 

Using the INFJ's formula... Ni > Fe > Ti > Se, let's put this into perspective...

My Ni sees intricate patterns. 

My Fe decides how I should feel about the things in which my Ni sees intricate patterns. 

My Ti wants to clarify what it is that I feel about the things in which my Ni sees intricate patterns. 

My Se wants to interact with what my Ti wants to clarify what it is that I feel about the things in which my Ni sees intricate patterns. 

Here is an example of this concept in actual practice...

My Ni notices something very subtle in a person's mannerisms.

Operating on behalf of Ni, my Fe is seeking to interpret these subtleties, and deduces this person is trying to hide something. This is Fe's reasoning supporting Ni's observations. In this case, Fe already has established parameters, which is that it cares about the person, and feels that the person should be healthy and happy. However, because Fe is subjugate to Ni, Fe is used as a deductive process that feels its way through the act of reasoning about this external variable and comes to the deduction that something feels wrong and that the person is trying to conceal hurt feelings. My Fe also feels compelled to interact with the person in order to generate more information for my Ni to process. More and more, my Fe's reasoning and interaction creates opportunities for my Ni to notice patterns and make inferences.

Operating on behalf of my Fe via my Ni, my Ti is now put into action to try to induce why this person is trying to conceal hurt feelings. Using the information that my Ni has noticed and my Fe has uncovered, my Ti induces that the reason for these hurt feelings are that this person has recently been through a break up. Because Ni and Fe work so well together in tandem, with Ni in the lead attempting to spot patterns, it is very possible that very little input can lead to this induction, possibly seeming that Ni and Ti have skipped Fe, but without Fe's imperative to care about the person, Ti would never have been put on the task of figuring out why. Also, keep in mind that Ti is ultimately supporting Ni here, so Ti's need to clarify will be combined with Ni's need to solve patterns to their terminus... but again at the imperative of Fe's sense of how things should be.

Operating on behalf of my Ti, my Se confirms what my Ti induced about the reasons behind what my Fe deduced what my Ni picked up on, and sees the overall impression of the person as well as providing empirical observations for Ni to make more pattern recognition. In a way, this can seem very much like Se directly supporting Ni, which it is, but the imperatives are coming from their superior functions. Without Fe seeking and Ti attempting to understand, Se wouldn't be engaged to further enhance Ni. Se is only subjugate to Ni via Ti via Fe. Se's observations will not reach Ni until it passes through the filters of Ti and Fe.

It's also important to notice that functions can defer to their subjugate. For example, Fe might only be engaged to provide motivation to seek clarity on how something works, offering no deductions or assertions, but simply deferring to Ti's expertise on the matter. This process works in reverse as well. Functions can become transparent when allowing a lesser function's reasoning or observations through their own filter to their superiors. For example, Ti and Fe can have very little opinion on what Se perceives, allowing to to pass through to Ni with very little alteration. However, these functions can also alter Se's perceptions considerably applying how Ti understands things to work and how Fe feels things should be to those empirical observations before Ni can begin to attempt to solve the patterns. While the functions may not be directly engaged in either direction, the hierarchy remains constant until the mind deliberately alters it in an attempt to overcome an obstacle that isn't surmountable with the current method. This is called adaptation, and is usually the result of stress. Otherwise the problem isn't important enough to warrant the effort. In the case of the INFJ, this means shifting to ENFJ priorities, then ISTP priorities, then ESTP priorities. 

The reason for this is because shifting the order of the functions completely changes the way in which they interact. This is why there is so much distinction between the introverted and extroverted versions of any given type. For example INFJs vs. ENFJs.

Let's rearrange the order of the above functions from INFJ to ENFJ to further illustrate this concept. As we will see, this completely changes the way the same functions we've looked at before interact. 

Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

My Fe decides how it feels things should be. (As a starting point, this allows the INFJ who as adapted their function hierarchy to be much more resolute and assertive.) 

My Ni sees intricate patterns that support how my Fe feels things should be. (Notice how Ni is no longer free to see patterns, but instead operates under the directive of Fe's sense of how things should be, making this dynamic literally opposite the INFJ hierarchy in which Fe supports Ni's need to solve patterns to their terminus. The difference is a shift to a greater amount of impetus and self directive toward outward people, places, and values that Ni's priority for observation lacks - allowing the individual to compensate for this in moments when this is a weakness - in proportion to how well developed the individual's Fe is.)

My Se confirms and wants to interact with the patterns that my Ni sees to support how my Fe feels things should be. (Notice how Se is now supporting Ni directly, and Ti has not yet been introduced to the interaction. This literally changes the entire dynamic of this combination of functions. No longer is Se a distant support of Ni, but is now very connected subordinate. Se goes from being the lowest on the totem pole to being Ni's right hand, giving Ni a much greater volume of empirical stimulus to process. If Ni were dominant, this degree of insightfulness would be utterly amazing, but in this configuration, Ni's primary imperative is to serve Fe, leaving it less able to spot patterns but much better at spotting the patterns it does see. Because all of these functions are supporting Fe without Ti, these observations are without the clarity or intricate logic provided by Ti, and only support Fe's sensibilities. Also, don't forget that Se brings with it a competitiveness, so this can fuel Fe's assertion. Again, this is by design as the INFJ configuration may need this extra umph to overcome obstacles.)

My Ti wants to clarify what it is that my Se confirms and wants to interact with the patterns that my Ni sees to support how my Fe feels things should be. (Notice though that Ti's understanding of how things work and need to clarify is way down the hierarchy from Fe's imperative to decide how it feels things should be. This creates a situation where Ti is only valid when it supports how Fe feels things should be. This is the opposite of INFJ's close relationship between Fe and Ti. While the INFJ configuration often misses the obvious and has little drive to interact with the world in real time due to Se being inferior, it retained Ti's capacities. ENFJ literally trades these factors, creating what can appear to be a great deal of insistence without logic to back it up.)

Here is the same example from above, but with the ENFJ priority set...

My Fe cares for this person and wants them to be happy.

My Ni notices something very subtle in a person's mannerisms, and since my Fe cares for this person, I want to understand what this means. Ni keeps reporting its findings to Fe, which is causing Ni to seek patterns based on how Fe feels things should be. In this instance, Fe wants this person to be happy and healthy, and feels that this should be the case, and is therefore alert to the fact that this is not the case. Ni is operating under Fe's curiosity as to why.

My Se notices signs and signals and seeks to interact with them, because my Ni sees something in the person that my Fe cares about. In this process, my Se creates more input that it processes and reports back to my Ni to discern patterns, which are then reported back to my Fe which operates under imperatives about how things should be. Just as before with Ni and Ti in the INFJ configuration, the interaction of my dominant and tertiary functions seem to be related and supporting each other directly. Fe and Se are prompting a lot of interaction with the person, but without Ni's need to discern pattern, Se would not be motivated to seek observation and interaction to provide Ni with more information to process in the effort of seeking the answer for Fe.

My Ti makes an induction about the reasons behind what my Se interactions brought forth about what my Ni picked up on in this person my Fe cares about, and induces that the reason for these hurt feelings are that this person has recently been through a break up. My Ti conflicts with how my Fe feels things should be, but my Se and Ni have confirmed this, and now my Fe is forced to either change its stance or find a way to make things be the way it feels they should be. This begins Ni on a search for how to make things the way Fe feels they should be, which is this person being happy and healthy. Ni sets Se on a search for real time observations so that it can see more patterns that might offer clues. Se sparks Ti to clarify the observations it makes so that it can give more precise information to Ni, which is seeking patterns for Fe.

While these functions come to the same conclusions, the method in which they arrive there is distinct, and this distinction is the basis for the differences in personality types.

Very often, our cognition need not go all the way to our inferior, or even tertiary functions. In some instances, our dominant function alone is enough to reach a cognitive conclusion. This means that individuals are almost always going to develop their dominant functions the most, their secondary functions less, their tertiary functions even less, and their inferior functions least of all. However, this is a working model, and cognition is a constant process. When Fe supports Ni, Ni gets used twice, as Ni is used again to confirm what Fe supported with. When Ti supports Fe, Fe gets used twice, and Ni gets used thrice. And so on. So it's not only the case that sometimes lesser functions don't get used for lack of need, but also the case that senior functions are constantly reused in the process of cognition as the lesser functions check in and confirm their support. 

So, while the assumption that this formula (Ni > Fe > Ti > Se) implies development is usually correct, it is not always correct, and any semblance of this being the case is nothing more than the effect of the cause that is each function is subjugate to its senior.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

^^^
I am terribly sorry that I didn't even read your post past the first few sentences, but I am not in a mood that makes me able to absorb that much text atm. So this might be totally irrelevant in which case, just ignore it. Anyway I wanted to share my reaction, fwiw. Here goes:

As I understand the function order, it is about control. Your dominant Ni will be in charge of your cognition and personality and can in extreme cases rule as a despot, never letting any other functions appear. This would not be very functional. In a more balanced personality Ni will be trusting and letting more inferior functions take care of certain "tasks" which it has found that they are more competent at than the dominant itself, thus making the person more "developed" and balanced. The more control Ni is willing to let go off to the other functions, the better for the balance and development of the personality.

Maybe you commented on this, but I am not sure that this can be made to fit with your image of the dominant as passing on everything in a four step process for all cognition. I think of it as a chain of command, rather than as a "manufacturing chain".

But maybe you already said this and I'm not adding anything...


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

penchant said:


> ^^^
> I am terribly sorry that I didn't even read your post past the first few sentences, but I am not in a mood that makes me able to absorb that much text atm. So this might be totally irrelevant in which case, just ignore it. Anyway I wanted to share my reaction, fwiw. Here goes:
> 
> As I understand the function order, it is about control. Your dominant Ni will be in charge of your cognition and personality and can in extreme cases rule as a despot, never letting any other functions appear. This would not be very functional. In a more balanced personality Ni will be trusting and letting more inferior functions take care of certain "tasks" which it has found that they are more competent at than the dominant itself, thus making the person more "developed" and balanced. The more control Ni is willing to let go off to the other functions, the better for the balance and development of the personality.
> ...


I didn't address this effect directly, and you make some good points that add well to what I wrote.

Also, if there are any grammar mistakes or logic mistakes in there, it's because I am also too tired to go through that much text. I can't believe I wrote it all, but it seemed like it all had to be clarified.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Both of my nearest and dearest best friends are ENFJs and I was married to an ENFJ for 8 years. To me, it's really obvious when someone is an ENFJ.

After reading through your entire post, I still don't see why you think you are ENFJ over INFJ? The ENFJs I know use Fe, it's so obvious in their attitude and their whole pursuit in life. This extends to how they treat social circles and network with people. My INFJ friends in contrast are very different. Down to their writing style. It's a difference in _attitude._

I would only pay attention to your dominant function. What do you mostly use- Fe or Ni? I see very little use of your Fe on this thread.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> Both of my nearest and dearest best friends are ENFJs and I was married to an ENFJ for 8 years. To me, it's really obvious when someone is an ENFJ.
> 
> After reading through your entire post, I still don't see why you think you are ENFJ over INFJ? The ENFJs I know use Fe, it's so obvious in their attitude and their whole pursuit in life. This extends to how they treat social circles and network with people. My INFJ friends in contrast are very different. Down to their writing style. It's a difference in _attitude._


Sounds like you're voting strongly for my being INFJ. All of my friends who understand this system and know me well are under the impression that I'm a very extroverted leaning INFJ. I've also noticed the writing style difference. I write a lot more like an INFJ than an ENFJ.



pinkrasputin said:


> I would only pay attention to your dominant function. What do you mostly use- Fe or Ni? I see very little use of your Fe on this thread.


I honestly don't know. I have a lot of trouble discerning this in myself. However, this seems to be a rather universal INFJ trait. ENFJs seem to also have an inability to discern themselves in this manner, but don't seem to care to clarify, which would probably be the difference between Fe and Ti being so far apart, while INFJs have Fe and Ti more directly connected. I'm also more prone to Ni and Ti loops than Fe and Se loops.

...One Ni aha moment later...

Okay, I can't really make a case for me being Fe dominant anymore.

I'm just going to have to accept that I'm an INFJ 8w9 sx/so, which is why I seem so extroverted, why I'm so gregarious, and why I have developed so much of my Fe, Ti, and Se. But I have to say, I'm just not comfortable with being the rarest MBTI type with the rarest Enneagram combination. I can't be that unique... then again, I've never met anyone quite like me, as much as I'd like to.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Nobleheart said:


> Sounds like you're voting strongly for my being INFJ. All of my friends who understand this system and know me well are under the impression that I'm a very extroverted leaning INFJ. I've also noticed the writing style difference. I write a lot more like an INFJ than an ENFJ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MBTI or Jungian function analysis should _not_ take away any of your individuality. I may be an ENFP, but I'm still one very odd cookie when you group me amongst them. :wink:


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> MBTI or Jungian function analysis should _not_ take away any of your individuality. I may be an ENFP, but I'm still one very odd cookie when you group me amongst them. :wink:


Hehe, that's Fi individuality. I've got that Fe need to be part of a group. I have a bunch of INFP and ENFP friends whom I adore, but they just can't follow me on the need to be included, to be like others. Problem is, I have my own integrity, so I'm not going to change to be part of a group, which leaves me in a position where I'm unable to fill this need. It feels like always standing on the sidelines. However, it's less relevant to me than getting this answer solved once and for all.

If you were married to an ENFJ for 8 years, I'll consider you an expert. You really think I'm not one?


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Nobleheart said:


> Hehe, that's Fi individuality. I've got that Fe need to be part of a group. I have a bunch of INFP and ENFP friends whom I adore, but they just can't follow me on the need to be included, to be like others. Problem is, I have my own integrity, so I'm not going to change to be part of a group, which leaves me in a position where I'm unable to fill this need. It feels like always standing on the sidelines. However, it's less relevant to me than getting this answer solved once and for all.
> 
> If you were married to an ENFJ for 8 years, I'll consider you an expert. You really think I'm not one?


Well obviously you will have the ultimate say in what you are. I just haven't seen anything that supported you are an ENFJ over INFJ.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I realized that the main difference between my INFJ and ENFJ dilemma is as simple as the I and E axis. While this goes deeper into the component parts of Ni and Ti vs Fe and Se, the manifestation of these things can be narrowed down with simple Introvert vs. Extrovert statements.

*Extrovert Pros*

I love people, and sincerely care about them. 

I'll talk to anyone. I do not suffer from any degree of shyness with strangers. The only thing that makes me feel inhibited is the assumption that the other person might not want me to talk to them.

When I'm in a line waiting, I'll often strike up conversation with the people around me once I get acclimated to the crowd, and am prone to jumping into the conversations around me as if I own them.

I'm gregarious. Get me started on something I'm passionate about, and I can talk for hours, and can hold the floor without meaning to. I dominate conversations. 

I get lonely very easily, and think nothing of initiating conversation with people online, on the phone, in person.

People tell me I have a lot of charisma, as in pretty much everyone says this, even people who don't like me. However, it's described as a vibe, magnetism, or presence - not being diplomatic, charming, or otherwise based on my ability to win people over deliberately. In fact, the less I talk the better, as my way with words (being so direct and upfront with no instinct to back down or accommodate) often gets me on people's bad sides. So, the charisma might not be a function of extroversion in my case...

*Extrovert Cons*

I am uncomfortable in big crowds, of 100 or more people, especially when these are people I don't know, and quickly want to leave them. The noise and confusion gets to me very quickly.

I am uncomfortable in crowds, of say 20 to 100 people, especially when those are people I don't know, and will want to leave them sooner than my extroverted friends, often seeking to find a secluded place to talk to a few people or be by myself and refocus.

I am uncomfortable in crowded loud places, like night clubs, restaurants when they are especially busy, even when I'm there with people I care about. The noise and confusion gets to me very quickly.

I will not go see live bands because of all the noise, confusion, and crowds.

The idea of going someplace where there are going to be a lot of people never excites me. But, I can get excited to see the event that is drawing everyone, such as a play, a movie premiere, a speaker, and am able to ignore the crowds, especially if there is order and the crowds will be quiet and mannerly during the event. Loud and interactive crowds annoy me.

Being around lots of people drains me, but being around one or a few good friends energizes me. 

I feel like I have to put on an extrovert mask when I go out in public. I make my outward manner warmer, nicer, friendlier than I really am, because people seem to be put off by my intense and cold manner as they describe it, even though to me it feels very neutral.

Also, all of my introvert pros.

*Introvert Pros*

I almost always prefer one on one interactions and small group settings to crowds.

I spend an inordinate amount of time in my own mind, imagining, theorizing, pondering.

I strongly prefer to isolate myself from outside noises and distractions.

Being around small groups energizes me, but being alone generally does not.

I love all manner of 'introverted' things like video games, roleplaying games, comic books, movies, interacting on the internet.

I express myself much better in writing than in person, and very much prefer the ability to backspace, edit, and ponder my words.

I really don't like touching people, unless they're someone I'm intimate with, at which point I crave touching them. 

I am ten to twenty times more likely to type affectionate things to someone than say them.

I had to learn how to engage in social banter. The timing was really difficult for me to develop. 

I'm still learning how to be polite. It doesn't come naturally to me at all.

I spent a lot of time being socially awkward as a kid, unable to connect with most kids. It was as if I could clearly understand them, but they couldn't understand me. Therefore, I spent a lot of time by myself, and had few good friends. 

I was usually a loner growing up, even though I was lonely. 

I loved to go explore by myself, often traveling miles away from home at a young age.

I love going for walks by myself at night to clear my head and engage my thoughts and imagination.

My ideal setting is just me and someone I really love harmoniously doing our own thing in the same room, frequently interacting with each other.

My next ideal setting is getting together with a few close friends, chatting, and playing a game of some sort while we discuss all manner of imaginative things.

*Introvert Cons*

I don't like to read novels, but that's because extemporaneous reading is difficult for me because of my ADD, but once a novel grabs my attention, I love reading them.

Also, all of my extrovert pros.

*Final Note*

I noticed that my extroverted points are well developed, and my introverted points are concise. This has to mean something, but I'm too drained from writing all of that to put it together.

I also noticed I have a lot more introvert points than extrovert.



pinkrasputin said:


> Well obviously you will have the ultimate say in what you are. I just haven't seen anything that supported you are an ENFJ over INFJ.


Out of curiosity, do you know your ex-husband's Enneagram type? I'm rather certain I'm an 8w9, and am under the impression that this is throwing off my ability to neatly fit in either the INFJ or ENFJ box.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

This is making my Ni, Ti, and Fe go in circles...


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> This thread lead to a very interesting observation about cognitive function preferences, so I'm going to reconstruct it and clarify it to an overly analytical degree.


I did not quote this entire post because it was very long but I am replying to the entire thing. This was amazing. I loved it and I agree and see it much that way as well. 

I want to point out an observation I made after reading it and then thinking back to how I have seen you socialize generally on this forum. 

Don’t you think an ENFJ would be more concerned with FeSe-ing people backed up by Ni pattern info than taking the time & mental energy to do all this NiTi-ing you just did here to support Fe motivation? I have never in my life seen an ENFJ go to these lengths to support Ni at the expense of playfully directly interacting with people in real time. 

You are fighting with the people and playing with the info. I think an ENFJ would likely play with the people and fight with the info. EDIT: and I don't mean fighting in a bad sense necessarily, just in a way that gives the impression that you would rather force fit Fe in INFJ case and force fit Ni in ENFJ case, than than the opposite - a matter of preference. 



Nobleheart said:


> *Extrovert Pros*
> 
> I love people, and sincerely care about them.
> 
> ...


These are not extroverted qualities. Loving and caring has ZERO to do with E or I or any personality type for that matter.

Shyness is not a product of introversion. I know tons of extrovert shy people maybe even more than introverted shy people. 

Introverts usually get really into conversations about things they are passionate once they are in a setting where they want to get into it. 

I think the magnetism thing is an NiFe/FeNi quality. All ENFJs and INFJs I have ever met have had this “inborn talent.” One of the reasons I act so different, quiet, & weird most of the time, is because I am very aware of this magnetism quality about myself. If I did not act to keep people away they would all be bombarding me constantly wanting interaction and I would have to sacrifice a lot in order to do that. I am also extremely sensitive so it is usually way too much stimulation. Another thing that comes up, is I can’t take myself away once I have gotten their hopes up that we are going to be “best friends hanging out all the time or whatever,” because I feel their pain and see the Ni pattern of how they will feel about it. 

Many times the best way to figure out our type is to look back to what we were when we were a kid. As we grow we make all these decisions to use all the functions in all these different ways, distorting our natural preferences. You were an introvert as a child and therefore you are an introvert who has made a conscious decision to act extroverted in certain situations. 

What in the world is it that made you have such an aversion to being an INFJ?

My first guess would be the same reason you decided to act extroverted IRL around small groups.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I did not quote this entire post because it was very long but I am replying to the entire thing. This was amazing. I loved it and I agree and see it much that way as well.


Thanks!



Unicorntopia said:


> These are not extroverted qualities. Loving and caring has ZERO to do with E or I or any personality type for that matter.
> 
> Shyness is not a product of introversion. I know tons of extrovert shy people maybe even more than introverted shy people.
> 
> Introverts usually get really into conversations about things they are passionate once they are in a setting where they want to get into it.


Fair enough. You've just removed the largest part of my argument against being an extrovert.



Unicorntopia said:


> What in the world is it that made you have such an aversion to being an INFJ?


*EDIT:* It's not being an INFJ that is the problem. It's the possibility of being the wrong type that is the problem. I don't feel as if I have the right to help others with their cognitive functions and MBTI personality types if I can't define myself. I feel like a charlatan if I am not able to do for myself what I seek to do for others. I'm averse to being anything other than the 'correct' type because I want to have the ability to know that I am helping others, and not just another person who is spouting off baseless opinion. I have to orient from myself outward, and if I don't know how I fit into the system, how am I supposed to understand the system? That's where this need for clarity is coming from.


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## TreeBob (Oct 11, 2008)

Ok I read here and there on this. First off you should drop thinking about dichotomy. Your I/E is irrelevant right now. It seems to be a fact that you are borderline (ambivert). So that means you need to focus on cognitive functions only. 

Pinkrasputin was correct in her assessment in my opinion. You always test dominant Ni and Fe as a secondary. This makes you an INFJ. Why not trust it? You keep harping on how you don't use Fe very well. Whether this is true or not, you seem more confident in your primary Ni so therefore.... INFJ. In MBTI terms you are borderline. Nothing wrong with that. it means you gain your strength both ways. I am sure you go through periods where you want to be at home and want to out with people. Lots of people are like that. 

A lot of the INFJ that come to this forum are VERY INTROVERTED. Same goes for many introverts on here. It is the internet, introverts play here. So stop worrying about how you compare to every one of them. I am different then a lot of ESTP on this forum. A lot of it has to do with my age. People need to stop blaming tertiary loops on everything. People use it to explain why they are different. people act different because everyone is different. 

Lastly, being uncomfortable with a type description isn't grounds for not being a certain type. All types have something unflattering written about them.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

TreeBob said:


> Ok I read here and there on this. First off you should drop thinking about dichotomy. Your I/E is irrelevant right now. It seems to be a fact that you are borderline (ambivert). So that means you need to focus on cognitive functions only.


I think this has been my biggest tripping point, failing to accept the obvious because it doesn't fit into the I or E boxes. 



TreeBob said:


> Pinkrasputin was correct in her assessment in my opinion. You always test dominant Ni and Fe as a secondary. This makes you an INFJ. Why not trust it? You keep harping on how you don't use Fe very well. Whether this is true or not, you seem more confident in your primary Ni so therefore.... INFJ. In MBTI terms you are borderline. Nothing wrong with that.* it means you gain your strength both ways.* I am sure you go through periods where you want to be at home and want to out with people. Lots of people are like that.


Again, I'm failing to accept the simple reality because it doesn't fit the model. Your dose of Se is much appreciated.



TreeBob said:


> A lot of the INFJ that come to this forum are VERY INTROVERTED. Same goes for many introverts on here. It is the internet, introverts play here. So stop worrying about how you compare to every one of them. I am different then a lot of ESTP on this forum. *A lot of it has to do with my age.* People need to stop blaming tertiary loops on everything. People use it to explain why they are different. people act different because everyone is different.


My age is likely a factor as well. Again, thanks for the obvious perspective that I've been missing. It seems I'm much more prone to an Se fail than I expected. 



TreeBob said:


> Lastly, being uncomfortable with a type description isn't grounds for not being a certain type. All types have something unflattering written about them.


I'm more uncomfortable with some of the flattering bits actually, but in either case, you're right. Not every description is going to describe everyone perfectly. I got hyper focused on details that were irrelevant in the face of the big picture. I'm realizing how prone I am to doing this.

When an ESTP, ENFP, INFJ, INTP, ENTP, ENTJ, and INTJ who understand the theory behind this system all agree, there is clear validity. 

INFJ it is.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

And 14 days later... I'm back to pondering my type. 

My apologies to those of you who might be driven looney by my indecisiveness here. I've spent the past several months with three real life INFJs. Two of them (both male) frequent a coffee shop I hang out at. The other is a close friend's girlfriend, who I hang out with at their place. There are also two confirmed ENFJs (one male, one female) who come up to said coffee shop, and I worked with another ENFJ (female) for several years. 

*INFJs*

With the INFJs, I marvel at their Ni. I mean literally. They are constantly blowing me away with their insights, and leaps of induction. They also amaze me with their Ti... not because it is better developed than mine, but because it is so much _faster_ than mine. What would have taken me twice as long to grasp, they can grasp with half as much. 

The INFJs and I have a lot in common, with respect to not only interests but also how we approach those interests. We talk for hours and hours about all manner of theoretical topics, spirituality, roleplaying games, relationships, and the like. But, I'm noticing that their perspective is at the same time a little more emotionally detached from the subjects but also quicker to jump to the logical conclusions. Also, the INFJs spend a lot more time staring into space with those distant eyes, which I've come to know is their Ni working. I've seen all of them sit for extended periods, in a coffee shop full of people they know and talk to regularly, without anything to do or read...nothing...and just stare off into space...no fidgeting, or anything... just blank and serene. I would have to force myself to not talk to someone, to not find something to do, or not interact with my surroundings.

I've also noticed that while they are passionate about certain things (mostly those tied to their sense of how things should be), they're so much more willing to let something pass them without emotional attachment. For example, we could talk about a recent movie, and they have a much greater ability to allow the film to be what it is without applying any sense of how it could have been or even should have been. This ability really fascinates me, and unless something really offends one of their core values, they seem to exist in this state. I don't have this ability. Everything I take in has to pass through my filter of how I feel about it, and how I feel it should be. I have to either force myself into the somewhat indifferent serene state my INFJ friends seem to naturally have, or be so depressed or stressed that I begin to not care. Most importantly, this is an ability that I've had to develop. This says to me that I'm an Fe dominant, and that the ability to shift to Ni is one that I've adapted, just like my ability to write these sorts of analytical posts.

*ENFJs*

All of the ENFJs I've met are like mirrors, with one exception. They're much better at politeness than I am. However, while talking to one of the ENFJs at the coffee shop, I realized she had roughly my own level of politeness. She shares my instant concern for everyone, but doesn't go to the same extent that my other ENFJ friends go to. And then all of a sudden it hit me. We're both from the Western US, but we are living in the Southern US. This is one of those 'aha' moments that are more like realizing something so obvious that it's embarrassing to admit. The Southern US has a completely different set of etiquette than anywhere else in the world I've been. It's a lot like Japan, though. A lot of smiling, politeness, and a much higher expectation for concern and interaction in small talk... also, there is a lot of focus on family, and believe it or not, the Southern US is actually an 'honor' based society like Japan... as opposed to the 'dignity' based society in most of the rest of the US (some guy at Yale did a big study on this... I'm not making it up). Okay, all that to say, I think I've been applying too much cultural expectation to my definition of Fe, because the ENFJ who shares basically the same cultural expectations as myself expresses her Fe in a *very* similar way. I realized I don't suck at Fe. I suck at being Southern.

When I'm around the ENFJs, we have so many similarities. We're passionate about pretty much everything. We care. We talk _way_ too much - for hours on end. We charm people into listening to our stories (which is saying a lot if you knew how lame our stories are). We're often too intense. We take over conversations. When we are happy, sad, angry, etc. we project it without trying, or being able to filter it. When we are not feeling anything at all, we're even projecting that. We tell people how _they_ feel, how they _should_ feel, and what they should do about it, even when they don't ask us to. We reflexively try to persuade people to our sense of how we feel things should be about pretty much everything. I could go on and on, but the best thing to point out is the eyes. My eyes have the same expressions and energy in them as nearly all of the ENFJs I've met. When they have the same eye color as me, it's like looking into a mirror. 

INFPs are my kryptonite. This is commonly mentioned by ENFJs, as these types are inverses.

While I generally like most ENFPs, they generally don't like me for some reason (always a different reason, but usually focused on my clear sense of how things should be inadvertently stepping on how they feel), but the ENFPs I know seem to get along very gracefully with INFJs I know. If I were an INFJ, then I should be able to get along with ENFPs better as inverses.

The thing I noticed that was the most telling was that I have nearly identical body language, manner of expression, pacing and intensity of vibe, and most importantly nearly identical rhythm of thought/emotional pattern to the ENFJs. The tempo of the way my thoughts progress, when they shift, make leaps of logic, how my emotions flow, turn, and redirect... it's all almost identical to my ENFJ friends. 

*Hypothesis*

So, what I think is going on here is this... When I'm online or alone, I'm more focused on my introverted functions. I'm leaning more on Ni and Ti, but this doesn't make me an INFJ. It just makes me seem like one when I'm here because I've been in adaptive modes through many of the tough times in my life, which have caused me to withdraw into INFJ, occasionally even ISTP, modes - which have developed my Ni and Ti.

I lost my wife several years ago, and I cannot put into words how bad of a blow that was to my entire worldview - my sense of how everything should be which contained my entire approach to life - my Fe. It literally shattered me. I don't know how I kept going, but somehow I made it though, and in that time I found the MBTI. I also found an online test that measured cognitive functions, and for no reason I can now remember, I started taking it once every few weeks and saving the results. At one point, I put the scores for each cognitive function in chronological order, and as my depression worsened over time my Fe, Se, and Ne dropped off, while my Ni, Fi, and Ti grew. However, I originally tested ENFP. All of my dichotomies were moderate to strong, but my P was very borderline... something like 1% if I recall correctly. the description sounded something like me in a vague way, but not enough to allow me to accept it, which is what got me into the theory behind it all. From there, I generally tested ENFJ or INFJ, slowly testing INFJ more and more often when I'd take the test as I got more depressed.

However, when I'm happy and healthy, I'm full of energy and really love being around people, and doing things. It's when I'm depressed that I withdraw... mostly because I don't want to bother anyone with it. When I'm out with my friends, I'm almost always the last one to leave, and so long as the atmosphere isn't toxic to me (strangers who don't seem to click with me after I've done what I can to click with them is a bit toxic to me), I can hang out for days - literally. 

But, I don't like disharmony in my home, and only really special people get to be here when I'm sleeping. Other than my private home space, I love being around people, talking to them, and helping them. I have the classic ENFJ problem in my office, where everyone is welcome to come in and talk, and whoever has come in the most recently gets my attention, putting the others on hold.

Lastly, I write these long dissertations in an expression of my findings because I want to share them with others, and possibly help others learn something, while at the same time opening up discussion so I might gain something from the insight of others. If that's not the ENFJ 'teacher' effect, I don't know what is.

I think Treebob is perfectly right. I'm an ambivert. I just think I'm an ENFJ ambivert.

(Someone please correct me if any of this sounds wrong.)


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Thank you very, very much for sharing that last post! It was very insightful and is completely in agreement with my understanding of type and function as well. I think that you understand exactly what you are talking about! I hope you don't mind me bookmarking this as a help to disitinguishing INFJs and ENFJs. :happy:


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Sorry for letting you wait...

I don't know if you have seen this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/39278-enfj-vs-infj.html It isnt very long, but I found a few helpful things in there that you might relate to.



Nobleheart said:


> This is one of the points that actually got me thinking I was an ENFJ. I assumed that this was a valid point, and that ENFJs would shut down their Fe last. It's simply not the case. Almost all of the ENFJs on the forums and that I've spoken to in real life describe Ni as their starting and ending function when they are tired or wake up.
> 
> There's actually a physiologically proven explanation for this. The 'emotional' centers of the brain are the most taxing on the mind (glucose and other physical fuels), and therefore, when someone gets tired (or isn't awake yet) their F functions are the first to be shut down (or last to start up) because of a lack of resources to operate them. Meanwhile, Ni is, as far as I can tell from almost all of the NJs I know, a very low energy function because INTJs, INFJs, ENTJs, and ENFJs have all described the Ni effect of 'never being able to turn their brain off', unless they are completely exhausted.
> 
> Granted, ENFJs can run their Fe a lot longer than most INFJs, but there is a clear preference for small groups, aversion to extended duration in crowds, and the like. These 'classic extroverted' traits just aren't there with most ENFJs (and even ENTJs), and I really think this is because of the influence of Ni. Because Ni is such a strong diffusing factor for Fe (and to a slightly lesser extent Te) the difference between an INFJ and an ENFJ (or INTJ and ENTJ) can be extremely subtle if either is well developed - more so than many other types' introverted and extroverted pairs.


I agree with all this, but my point was slightly different. It makes sense that being physically worn down makes people less sociable and seemingly introverted. If the introverted functions are located further back in the brain, then that is a good explaination for why.

What I was thinking of was rather that overextending my Fe in itself can cause me to introvert even if my general energy levels are high. It's not that I couldn't extravert if I wanted to, I just don't see the reason to do so any more at that point. My Ni doesn't trust that Fe would do anything sensible in that situation, I guess.



> None. In fact, I've noticed that I crave interaction in small groups. One on one, or no more than 5 or 6. Any more than that and I start to get overwhelmed - very quickly. But, I also get lonely very quickly. Being completely alone without anyone to interact with drains me as well - and drains me very quickly. I've been down this train of deduction more times that I can count. It never helps. In rare moments, I will look forward to a large gathering, or an extended period of solitude. I am charged by interaction one on one or in small groups. In fact, posting on forums seems like a conversation with a small group, and charges me.


Interaction in small groups could be a sign that you are only comfortable behaving in a more extroverted way when you feel in control of the situation. I picked up somewhere recently that this issue of 'control' is related to introversion. Feeling lonely easily... idk. But I would guess that most introverts don't mind spending a few days on their own without other people. (though I realised that might be a misunderstanding on my part, so I posted a thread on that and hope for a few responses)



> Oh snap! I wrote up a counter post, and I just realized it didn't post for some reason. It was really eloquent too. /sigh
> 
> Well, it went something like this...
> 
> After thinking about it, I realized that while I made a really good analysis of the differences between distinct INFJs and distinct ENFJs, I'm still in the middle of them both. I'm not as good at the INFJ things as the INFJs, but I love to talk to them about the sorts of things that they love to talk about. But I'm also not as good at the ENFJs things as the ENFJs, even though I keep pace with their enthusiasm.


Yes, that is the worst part of this. No matter how much you learn about the system, having a good understanding of oneself can be just as difficult... :laughing:



> *INFJs*
> 
> I'm not as quick as they are, especially looking at how I was at the same age as the younger INFJs. My Ni just isn't that fluent. I'm clearly using Ni, but it just doesn't jump as far or as quickly between jumps. Meanwhile, I love my Ni, and can get lost in it. There are things that my INFJ friends and I can ponder for hours that most of my ENFJ friends just can't get into... It's difficult to explain this difference, but I can talk to INFJs for hours and hours about these things, going all over the spectrum of theoretical imagination and our vivid 'fantasy lives', but I'm sort of leading these conversations in reverse. Like, I'm the one switching the subject or leading the direction - yet, I'm almost always following the INFJs leaps of induction, and herding it with my Fe. INFJs seem mesmerized by my Se as well. My stories about martial arts, sparring, target shooting, dealing with life from a somewhat Se perspective gets a lot of them asking the most questions.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that great summary. It makes perfect sense to me, even though I'm not fully convinced that all the things you mention are necessarily type related. However, I found it interesting that you relate so well both to your Ti and your Se. Would you say that either of these are more "aspirational" or "childish"? (you present them both here as very well developed and well-behaved...)

Also, reading a little of your earlier posts, I connected something you said about understanding the system by locating yourself within it to this: Orienting (If you haven't checked the other examples at Extraverted maybe they could help too.)



> I'm really starting to see that type models only apply to people who haven't developed outside of them. At a certain point, I think a function is fully developed. Any more is just additional to this. You've mastered the function. Each time a function is mastered, it's added to a person's cognitive repertoire. The more functions you have, the more type models you can fit.


While I don't agree that you will be able to fully develop your functions, I agree with the thrust of this. People that are less well-rounded and developed is generally much more easily typed, since their function preference will shine through in almost any situation.



> I can sincerely see myself leading my thoughts with my Ni, my Fe, or even my Ti or my Se. I can switch modes. Leading with my Ti and Se are modes that I've learned. I can remember the process of learning to do this. Se was in martial arts. Ti was when I was learning computer programming. I also have a strong Fi, which I use when I'm making art. I'm a published illustrator, and have been drawing pictures since before I could write my own name...so this is a function I've used quite a bit in my life. I'm currently developing Te. Te and Fi don't fit INFJ or ENFJ, but I know for a fact that I'm developing Te in this phase of my life, because people who I know who have it as a dominant or secondary function used to really offend me - even seem kind of evil - but the more I develop my Te, the more sense these peoples' perspectives are making to me.
> 
> I'm really starting to believe that type models are simply the way the mind develops, up to the point before it truly matures into being adaptable, and at that point (and many people have mentioned similar) you have to go back and look at who you were when you were younger. Problem with that is - if you had a different perspective when you were younger, you were a different person, and you're typing someone who you are no longer. That's almost as pointless as typing someone else to determine your own type.


So, you have developed a better use of most functions... But the one true dominant function (assuming type doesn't change) should be the one that you can't remember when you learned, as it is part of your natural functioning. And, also, don't you think that it is still the case that people with many learned skills will still feel most natural and being themselves with their natural preference? If so, then looking at childhood, might help to identify this...



> But, let's do this, just to be thorough...
> *
> My Type as I Developed From Childhood to Adult*
> 
> When I was a very young child, my parents tell me I never met a stranger. I'd talk to anyone, but I remember having a very accurate 'radar' about people even when I was as young as 4 years old. I knew who was good and who was bad by how their vibes felt to me, even though I had no idea how to explain that to people (and from the looks of it, I still don't do too good of a job explaining it, hehe). I assumed everyone else did this also, until I was probably into my late teens, at which point I realized most people didn't. I was very positive, and a happy child, and wanted very much to be 'good'. This sounds like an ENFJ to me (because I felt these impressions and was very outgoing), but it could also be INFJ (because it could have been Ni filtering through Fe). Then again, it could have even been INFP (keen insight about people, the desire to be good, etc).


Read through this (Kids' Personality Portraits) and see what you think? To me it seems EFJ.



> Around the time I turned 5 or 6, my mother started being very abusive with me. She has Borderline Personality Disorder, and would fly at me in psychotic rages at least once a week, sometimes several times a day in bad phases. She would beat me senseless, and then threaten to leave and never come back, or send me to an orphanage if I didn't stop crying because of it. Regularly, I was told how much she regretted ever having me, how miserable I made her, and that she wanted to kill herself. I could write volumes about the crazy things this woman has done over the course of my life, and these are actually typical behaviors for Borderlines, but I was a child, and she was my mother. I remember hurting very badly emotionally because of it, always trying harder to be 'a good boy', and wishing that she would stop hurting. That might be a telling point. I always wished for her betterment, always had a clear sense of how things should be, and that she was doing wrong. But, I remember going very much into my own imagination in this phase. My toys were my friends, as were the scenes I would draw. This could be straight INFJ, INFJ adaption mode, or INFP shadow mode. In any case, at school, I was always a straight A student, and wanted to make everyone happy. (INFJ? ENFJ?) But, it didn't matter what I did, I couldn't make everyone happy, no matter how hard I tried. My ideal world just wouldn't work out. Eventually, I started to give up trying. (Fe giving up?)


I'm not sure how to type this, but you seem to be focusing on Fe rather than Ni characteristics here. Imagination, yes, but you are imagining friends. You also seem concerned that people were happy around you. Now this could of course simply be a consequence of your experiences of not being able to "please" your mother.



> My father's jobs moved us around a lot (roughly once per year) so I was never really able to form lasting friendships with people, and was frequently forced to make an entirely new set of friends. The more we moved, the less happier my mother became, and the more she took it out on me, as my father was a workaholic and never around. I withdrew more and more into the safety of my imagination, and I clearly remember this phase of life, from around 10 to 13. If I was at any point an ENFJ, I'd fully switched to INFJ or INFP during this era. I dove really deep into my fantasy worlds, playing a lot of roleplaying games and drawing pictures. I gave up on getting good grades or even trying. I ended up in a lot of trouble over it, but by this point I just didn't care about any of that any more. My imagination gave me happiness when everything else failed me.
> 
> I had very few friends until I got to high school, where we lived long enough for me to graduate. The friends I made shared my imagination, and I started to come back out of my shell. I was almost always the leader of any group I was part of, but it just kind of happened. People tended to follow me. I had one group of friends where I wasn't the leader, and that was also really nice. It was a bunch of guys who went to other schools in the area who both played roleplaying games but were actively social (that I met at a science fiction convention). This reopened a world of possibilities to me. It was difficult at first because I was so emotionally guarded and had nearly no self esteem from all of my mother's abuse over the years and usally being in the 'outcast' bracket in my schools, but these guys were like training wheels for me, and I took to it like riding a bike. The more I let go of my hurts, the more people liked me, admired me, and wanted me around. My idealism started to return, and more and more I started to regain my faith in the possibility of the world being the good place I always knew it should be. INFJ to ENFJ? INFP to ENFJ?


This reminds me of other people I've talked to here that have withdrawn from their dominant extraverted function during early childhood and then regaining it when being able to "calibrate" themselves with a social world outside a dysfunctional family. The pattern of turning to introversion but not really enjoying it and then finding back to extraversion seems common.



> From there, I went through very ENFJ phases until I became an adult. The more healthy I got, the more I opened up, and the more ENFJ traits I developed. By the time I was an adult, I was a true to life hero, living to my core the values and way that I always knew people should. I regularly risked my own safety and even life to help others. I'd give someone the shirt off my back and not even think twice about it. I lived for others, and my ideals, constantly striving to make the world around me a better place, however I could. I developed that classic ENFJ charisma, and would have been a lady killer if I didn't believe sex was sacred - and sought more than anything a soul mate.
> 
> It took me many years, but I eventually found her, and it was wonderful. We had ten wonderful years together, the best of my life. When I was with her, I was definitely more of an ENFJ. She tested as INFJ, and really seemed to be a classic INFJ. We had so much amazing harmony. We only ever had 3 fights, and they consisted of us not talking to each other for about 10 minutes and realizing that nothing was worth our relationship.
> 
> And then I lost her. There are no words that could express how badly this wounded my soul. Everything I was mentally, emotionally, idealistically, and spiritually was shattered. Everything I believed in, and the amazing light filled world that I always sought to create was gone. To call it a depression would be like calling a cataclysm a 'natural disaster'. It's been many years, and I'm just now beginning to recover and feel 'healthy' - though I'm still very numb, and it often feels like my soul is made of stone.


Again, there is a very clear trauma that changed a lot in your life, and it would be strange if that also didn't affect your personality. And I think that you describe the shifting emphasis in a way that makes sense to me.



> In other words... looking at my childhood, I could easily see myself being an ENFJ that went through a lot of withdrawn periods because of all the abuse and shifted through INFJ and INFP modes, or maybe I was always an INFJ, or maybe I was an INFP who became an ENFJ who has now become an INFJ. I honestly don't know, and at this point am really beginning to suspect that I'm simply the sum of all of these things.


I think this is exactly it. In one sense you are of course the result of all parts of your life so far. But it seems to me that the parts of your life that you really enjoyed and felt healthy were clearly ENFJ. This does not mean to take anything away from the reality of the other parts of your life. I might need to think more about this, but I would think that your innate cognitive preference would be what still now gives you the most sense of being yourself, though obviously only when you feel comfortable.

Anyhow, I should probably re-read the entire thread more properly to get a better perspective on this, but maybe my comments so far has given some new input.

Oh, and a final thing: Has any ENFJ actually looked at this? As in, have you asked @kiwigrl or any of the other ENFJs here to give their perspective?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

penchant said:


> But it seems to me that the parts of your life that you really enjoyed and felt healthy were clearly ENFJ. This does not mean to take anything away from the reality of the other parts of your life. I might need to think more about this, but I would think that your innate cognitive preference would be what still now gives you the most sense of being yourself, though obviously only when you feel comfortable.


I know I have asked you (Nobleheart) to look into this function order stuff and how one will feel about that function before, but I still think there might be some hidden gems of realization left in there. 
Since INFJ's aspirational function is Se, they will tend to feel the most alive, confident, & well when they have good use of this function. When young of course it will make them feel rather vulnerable like how I never played team sports in school. The only good example of how I am switching from being totally vulnerable with Se to loving every minute of it is dancing. In the past couple of years I have been forcing myself to dance even though it made me extremely uncomfortable, because I wanted to have fun with everyone else. Now it takes about 5 to 10 minutes. I continually push all the anxiety/doubt about it out of my head until all the sudden I am going on autopilot and having a blast. It is incredibly difficult to get myself to stop once I have entered this mode and I absolutely love it. Se aspiration making me feel awesomely good. 

Ti does not make me feel this way. It is fun and all but it mostly makes me feel like I can say "hey everyone, I can too back up my Ni and I do it daily as opposed to Se being select occasions!" roud: It is more like when I feel like playing without having to overcome the vulnerableness of Se. It is kind of just like default something to do when I am bored - "lets see how much of this Ni Fe I can sort out with Ti while I am in this waiting room, no pressure."

Also, which one out of Ni or Fe do you tell yourself you _should_ do. While we do enjoy our secondary function and it is colored through everything we think and do, we often times have an attitude about it that we know we _have_ to do this. We will often advise people in it reactively, where it won't necessarily occur to us to advise someone to do our dom function until further contemplation. If someone advises me to Fe, I will not get defensive or annoyed at all, I will most likely feel horrible and jump to the chance to fix it. If someone advises me to Ni I will get offended because I feel like they are assuming I am really stupid since that function comes so natural to me - I am like "of course I have done that! I do that all the time!" If someone advises me to Ti I will get very defensive and frustrated and won't feel the need to - "I can get all that done with Ni Fe why should I have to Ti? You are just trying to make my life miserable by nitpicky lawyer talking!" - or at least that was how it was back in high school and before. If someone advises me to Se, I will make a really effective excuse and try to forget they suggested that, usually quite successfully.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

These two posts have given me a lot to think about. There are many extremely astute insights in them. Thank you both very much for taking the time to consider all of that. However, as with anything really profound, it's probably going to take me a moment to process and refine the answers. At current, there are a lot of answers, and I need to narrow them down to the source... so forgive if this meanders in stream of consciousness...

I loved the notion of being the sum of all my parts. That was an outside perspective that I was missing. I was trying to fit all of my parts into the box.

As for which function I feel I should use and which is natural. I very much think I should Fe. I never stopped to consider if I should Ni. It just happens. I've forced myself to Fe better. At several points in this thread, I've mentioned that I suck at Fe. Nothing proves that I feel an imperative to Fe like that sentiment. Ni happens whether I want it to or not, much like right now as I'm processing everything I've read in these replies. I always assumed that this was the case for anyone who used Ni dominant or secondary, that the inability to turn Ni off was an inherent part of Ni. I also assumed that Fe was something that one feels compelled to do, that they should do it (whether dominant or secondary). It never occurred to me that Fe could be an inherent state and Ni could be a 'should', but all of a sudden I can see this so clearly in the ENFJs I know. I'm going to think about this and try to remember if there were points in my life when it was more this way than it is now, as my current state makes it difficult to remember previous states. 

I read about cocooning vs conforming, and the cocooning sounds almost exactly like me, with one exception. Here's where I'm going to rip off a line I read once, but I am the empathic equivalent of the Eye of Sauron. I have always been able to see directly into people. Anyone who is at all sensitive to these sorts of things has commented on how uncomfortable it can be to feel someone seeing so deeply into them. My first memories of being around people include sensing them on this deep level. This is an ability that has not improved at all in its clarity. It's always been at maximum strength. What has improved is my ability to understand what I'm seeing/feeling. I've refined that a great deal over the years. To make an analogy, it would be like telescopic eyes that could read a newspaper a mile away, but not know how to read. I knew it was a newspaper, and I could see the letters on the pages, but I had to learn what they meant. I hope that makes sense, because this has allowed me to create instant cocoons with people, whether they're aware of it or not. I also have never had any fear of creating a cocoon, because I know who I can do this with, and I have always been aware that I am a stronger person than most people even as a small child, and even without being consciously aware of it. As for the conforming that extroverts do, I tend to shut down in larger groups if I can't take them over and 'perform', and follow the description of being overwhelmed by a bunch of extroverts are extroverting on each other. The only time I have the "uhh..." moments attributed to extroverts when they are in private is when I can't form a cocoon with the person or if someone asks me a question that has too many possible answers. For example, "Tell me about yourself" will always send my mind racing for what specific part of myself this person is trying to get to, because there are far too many to unload in a moment or even days.

My grasp of Ti and Se come from my father who is a quintessential ISTP, and I admire him deeply. He is a kung fu instructor, and put me in martial arts classes when I was 5. I've grew up with a strong Ti and Se sensibility. My two longest friends from the time I was a teenager are an ISTP and an ESTP. My father felt compelled to Se, so I can see how I ended up with such a drive to Se. The zone you mentioned when dancing... that's one of the greatest feelings in the world, and I reach it when sparring against multiple attackers. Everything in me has to go on pure zen and react. I can't think about anything. It has to just happen. It feels like my Ni and Se are synchronizing through the axis of my Fe and Ti... like all of my cylinders are firing at the same time, and I go into warp drive where time slows down. There are a few other activities that allow me to reach this state. Target shooting. I'm an extremely good shot, also learned from my father. I can shoot about a 2 inch grouping at 100 yards, but only when I enter that zenlike state of Ni and Se. I also reach into this state when making art.

If I had to choose which is easier for me to do, it would definitely be Ti. Ti just happens. I love tinkering with things, especially abstractions like game mechanics, theories, and this cognitive function stuff. When I'm engaging my Ti, it's just simple curiosity. I never get much of a high from it, other than it's fun, and if I make some sort of interesting breakthrough, then I'm usually pretty impressed with myself for a moment maybe even a day, but nothing like when I'm in that Se zone which is almost like a drug, or if I pull off a feat of Se then I'll have pride over it for the rest of my life. For example, I'll find pieces of paper that I had a Ti breakthrough on, remember it and say to myself "oh yeah... that was a really good idea" and I'll forget about it in a few days if not moments. However, the time I ran into a burning building and saved two kids will never be forgotten. The time I shot 0.38 MOAs (less than a half inch grouping at 100 yards with 5 shots) will never be forgotten. The time I took on 6 dudes in a bar fight and kicked all of their asses, and put several of them in the hospital will never be forgotten. It's not just because I did something amazing, but how it felt when I was doing it. There is a description of the various levels of Extroverted Sensing on that greenlightwiki site you mentioned, and I have to say that I follow the pattern for inferior Se more than tertiary Se. I have adopted a few of the tertiary traits over the years, but I certainly didn't have them as a kid. 

The point about learned traits becoming second nature was a really good one. I learned how to Fe. I always had the compulsion to care and always had a clear sense of how things should be, but I had to learn (and am still learning) the finer points. Even when I was a kid, I remember seeing and feeling my intuitions more than having a drive to conform to others' expectations. I remember more than a few occasions early in life where simple Fe expectations were very alien to me, and I couldn't understand why they were such a big deal. I sincerely cared about people. That should have been enough. I should have been judged by my intentions, which was how I judged (and still judge) others. However, that's really an intuitive concept now that I think about it. I definitely learned Ti, but things involving Ti usually came quickly to me unless they opposed how my Fe felt they should be. My Fe has often (and still does) been a stumbling block for my Ti. This proves I'm Fe > Ti, but that doesn't help with the INFJ vs. ENFJ. I've always had a talent for picking up Se related tasks, but I definitely had to learn them, and I think they were more foreign to me than Ti because in order to pick any of them up, I had to go through the filter of my Ni, Fe, and Ti. Wow. Sorry, I just realized this. In order to develop an Se skill, my Ni has to focus on the task with my Ti deconstructing it, but only if my Fe really feels like I should put forth the effort to do so. Only then does my Se engage, but when it does, the 'awkward stage' is very short, and it just clicks, and all of a sudden I'm doing it like I've been doing it for years, and people are having trouble believing I've only been engaging in the task for a few hours. If I can put my Ni, Fe, and Ti analysis on watching a person who is really good with the skill, and peering into them while they're doing it, I can literally form that state in myself and imitate it on a very deep level, even too deep for me to fully understand. I just do it.

I tend to spot things visually, but now that I think about it, it's pretty clear that it's intuition that pulls my eye. For example, and this happens to me many times a day, I will feel something that pulls my attention, and in the midst of a bunch of sensory input that I'm effectively ignoring because I'm deep in thought all of a sudden I'm looking at something of interest to me. I always spot people in crowds before they see me, because something pulls my attention to them, and _then_ I realize I'm looking at them. My eyes drift while I'm thinking about something else and end up exactly on the "needle in a haystack" I've been looking for. I used to think this was pure Se, but now I'm seeing how this is Ni with Se.

So, all this to say that if I was not always an INFJ, I certainly am now, but it's starting to look like I always was. I looked at the EFJ and INJ child lists and INJ is nearly 100% dead on for ages 7-12. ENJ child was about 85-90%. The paragraph that you said sounded like an EFJ child was actually me before age 6, so that would either be EJ or IJ, and as I think I've described fairly well, I think I was using Ni with Fe as a back up. I just don't have a 'fear' response to people on a social level, and I think this is what has been confusing me about being an extrovert. I'm starting to think that if I were an extrovert, I would have reacted to the abuse differently. In all the years of it, I've never retaliated against my mother, not even by raising my voice to her. It was never fear, as odd as that sounds. I was never afraid of her. I was always a tough kid, and she was never really capable of inflicting physical injury on me. It just hurt my feelings that she would treat me that way. I never feared her wrath, I simply didn't want to cause her to hurt my feelings, nor cause her to be hurt by the things I did to upset her. By the time I was 12 years old, I'd been in enough real fights to know that I could have beat her senseless if I wanted to because she couldn't hit me without my blocking it (mostly due to martial arts training). It never crossed my mind to retaliate, and I was in no fear of harm. Hell, one time when I was 15 she flipped out on me over something I found hysterical and I fell down on the floor in a ball laughing while she was literally kicking me, and I couldn't stop laughing. No fear. If I were an extrovert, I would have reacted more drastically. If I were a dominant Feeler, I would not have been able to dissociate myself from my feelings and those feelings would have ruled me. Most importantly, with tertiary Se I would have at least at some point made subtle threats through my body language that would have tried to intimidate her, and I did not learn how to intimidate people until I was well into my late teens / 20s. ENFJ just isn't adding up anymore. It's a really close second, but unless I switched from ENFJ very early in life, then went back and forth over the years, my ENFJ > INFJ > INFP > ENFJ > INFJ theory is losing weight. (Note, I haven't given up completely, but it's falling apart.)

Finally, no I haven't specifically asked any ENFJs to read this. I would love kiwigirl 's perspective and opinion as she's a great example of a well developed ENFJ.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> I have always been able to see directly into people. Anyone who is at all sensitive to these sorts of things has commented on how uncomfortable it can be to feel someone seeing so deeply into them. My first memories of being around people include sensing them on this deep level. This is an ability that has not improved at all in its clarity. It's always been at maximum strength. What has improved is my ability to understand what I'm seeing/feeling. I've refined that a great deal over the years. To make an analogy, it would be like telescopic eyes that could read a newspaper a mile away, but not know how to read. I knew it was a newspaper, and I could see the letters on the pages, but I had to learn what they meant. I hope that makes sense, because this has allowed me to create instant cocoons with people, whether they're aware of it or not
> 
> "Tell me about yourself" will always send my mind racing for what specific part of myself this person is trying to get to, because there are far too many to unload in a moment or even days.
> 
> ...


YES YES YES to all these things!!! You explained them supurbly! :laughing:

Boy, I really hope we are actually INFJs or we are in for some major mind reconstruction. Or, I am at least...


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I know I have asked you (Nobleheart) to look into this function order stuff and how one will feel about that function before, but I still think there might be some hidden gems of realization left in there.
> Since INFJ's aspirational function is Se, they will tend to feel the most alive, confident, & well when they have good use of this function. When young of course it will make them feel rather vulnerable like how I never played team sports in school. The only good example of how I am switching from being totally vulnerable with Se to loving every minute of it is dancing. In the past couple of years I have been forcing myself to dance even though it made me extremely uncomfortable, because I wanted to have fun with everyone else. Now it takes about 5 to 10 minutes. I continually push all the anxiety/doubt about it out of my head until all the sudden I am going on autopilot and having a blast. It is incredibly difficult to get myself to stop once I have entered this mode and I absolutely love it. Se aspiration making me feel awesomely good.
> 
> Ti does not make me feel this way. It is fun and all but it mostly makes me feel like I can say "hey everyone, I can too back up my Ni and I do it daily as opposed to Se being select occasions!" roud: It is more like when I feel like playing without having to overcome the vulnerableness of Se. It is kind of just like default something to do when I am bored - "lets see how much of this Ni Fe I can sort out with Ti while I am in this waiting room, no pressure."
> ...


Thanks a lot! That was a brilliant post! I would only like to add that I have understood the aspirational inferior to be the function _most_ related to 'should' and 'ought to'. (Of course it makes sense for all the functions with an opposite attitude to the dominant to have that connotation...)

Now to Noblehearts post...


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

I started a thread on INFJs and solitude (http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/40282-infjs-solitude.html) if you want to check it out...



Nobleheart said:


> As for which function I feel I should use and which is natural. I very much think I should Fe. I never stopped to consider if I should Ni. It just happens. I've forced myself to Fe better. At several points in this thread, I've mentioned that I suck at Fe. Nothing proves that I feel an imperative to Fe like that sentiment. Ni happens whether I want it to or not, much like right now as I'm processing everything I've read in these replies. I always assumed that this was the case for anyone who used Ni dominant or secondary, that the inability to turn Ni off was an inherent part of Ni. I also assumed that Fe was something that one feels compelled to do, that they should do it (whether dominant or secondary). It never occurred to me that Fe could be an inherent state and Ni could be a 'should', but all of a sudden I can see this so clearly in the ENFJs I know. I'm going to think about this and try to remember if there were points in my life when it was more this way than it is now, as my current state makes it difficult to remember previous states.


Exactly!



> I read about cocooning vs conforming, and the cocooning sounds almost exactly like me, with one exception. Here's where I'm going to rip off a line I read once, but I am the empathic equivalent of the Eye of Sauron. I have always been able to see directly into people. Anyone who is at all sensitive to these sorts of things has commented on how uncomfortable it can be to feel someone seeing so deeply into them. My first memories of being around people include sensing them on this deep level. This is an ability that has not improved at all in its clarity. It's always been at maximum strength. What has improved is my ability to understand what I'm seeing/feeling. I've refined that a great deal over the years. To make an analogy, it would be like telescopic eyes that could read a newspaper a mile away, but not know how to read. I knew it was a newspaper, and I could see the letters on the pages, but I had to learn what they meant. I hope that makes sense, because this has allowed me to create instant cocoons with people, whether they're aware of it or not. I also have never had any fear of creating a cocoon, because I know who I can do this with, and I have always been aware that I am a stronger person than most people even as a small child, and even without being consciously aware of it. As for the conforming that extroverts do, I tend to shut down in larger groups if I can't take them over and 'perform', and follow the description of being overwhelmed by a bunch of extroverts are extroverting on each other. The only time I have the "uhh..." moments attributed to extroverts when they are in private is when I can't form a cocoon with the person or if someone asks me a question that has too many possible answers. For example, "Tell me about yourself" will always send my mind racing for what specific part of myself this person is trying to get to, because there are far too many to unload in a moment or even days.


I didn't get what the exception would be. It all sounds introversion to me.



> If I had to choose which is easier for me to do, it would definitely be Ti. Ti just happens. I love tinkering with things, especially abstractions like game mechanics, theories, and this cognitive function stuff. When I'm engaging my Ti, it's just simple curiosity. I never get much of a high from it, other than it's fun, and if I make some sort of interesting breakthrough, then I'm usually pretty impressed with myself for a moment maybe even a day, but nothing like when I'm in that Se zone which is almost like a drug, or if I pull off a feat of Se then I'll have pride over it for the rest of my life. For example, I'll find pieces of paper that I had a Ti breakthrough on, remember it and say to myself "oh yeah... that was a really good idea" and I'll forget about it in a few days if not moments. However, the time I ran into a burning building and saved two kids will never be forgotten. The time I shot 0.38 MOAs (less than a half inch grouping at 100 yards with 5 shots) will never be forgotten. The time I took on 6 dudes in a bar fight and kicked all of their asses, and put several of them in the hospital will never be forgotten. It's not just because I did something amazing, but how it felt when I was doing it. There is a description of the various levels of Extroverted Sensing on that greenlightwiki site you mentioned, and I have to say that I follow the pattern for inferior Se more than tertiary Se. I have adopted a few of the tertiary traits over the years, but I certainly didn't have them as a kid.


I understand this is the common way of describing inferior Se, so you are probably correct, though I personally do not relate to this description of inferior Se.



> I sincerely cared about people. That should have been enough.


I like (and identify with) this part!



> In order to develop an Se skill, my Ni has to focus on the task with my Ti deconstructing it, but only if my Fe really feels like I should put forth the effort to do so.


And here again...



> I tend to spot things visually, but now that I think about it, it's pretty clear that it's intuition that pulls my eye. For example, and this happens to me many times a day, I will feel something that pulls my attention, and in the midst of a bunch of sensory input that I'm effectively ignoring because I'm deep in thought all of a sudden I'm looking at something of interest to me. I always spot people in crowds before they see me, because something pulls my attention to them, and _then_ I realize I'm looking at them. My eyes drift while I'm thinking about something else and end up exactly on the "needle in a haystack" I've been looking for. I used to think this was pure Se, but now I'm seeing how this is Ni with Se.


This, not however. Or, well sometimes... but I do need to know what I am looking for (and be correct about it), otherwise my expectations will filter out reality so that I miss out on what I'm not expecting to see.



> So, all this to say that if I was not always an INFJ, I certainly am now, but it's starting to look like I always was. I looked at the EFJ and INJ child lists and INJ is nearly 100% dead on for ages 7-12. ENJ child was about 85-90%. The paragraph that you said sounded like an EFJ child was actually me before age 6, so that would either be EJ or IJ, and as I think I've described fairly well, I think I was using Ni with Fe as a back up.


I didn't state that explicitly, and I probably should have, but in my experience the 7-12 year descriptions are valid for the period before that as well. I don't know what they will post as IJ and EJ in the future, but I think that if you combine the INJ and the ISJ into one profile, that is about it. I assume the EJ will be a fusion of the ETJ and the EFJ profiles. It's really all about functions in the end anyway, just less developed, and less balanced by any auxiliaries.

I understand that INJ fits as a glove for the 7-12 period. What concerns me is that it doesn't really make sense to me couple this with being E(F)J before the age of 7. And as there seems to be a reason for a substantial change in personality, I'm not yet fully convinced. But then, I guess, this is why some people would claim that there is no fixed personality before the age of 6-7.



> I just don't have a 'fear' response to people on a social level, and I think this is what has been confusing me about being an extrovert. I'm starting to think that if I were an extrovert, I would have reacted to the abuse differently. In all the years of it, I've never retaliated against my mother, not even by raising my voice to her. It was never fear, as odd as that sounds. I was never afraid of her. I was always a tough kid, and she was never really capable of inflicting physical injury on me. It just hurt my feelings that she would treat me that way. I never feared her wrath, I simply didn't want to cause her to hurt my feelings, nor cause her to be hurt by the things I did to upset her. By the time I was 12 years old, I'd been in enough real fights to know that I could have beat her senseless if I wanted to because she couldn't hit me without my blocking it (mostly due to martial arts training). It never crossed my mind to retaliate, and I was in no fear of harm. Hell, one time when I was 15 she flipped out on me over something I found hysterical and I fell down on the floor in a ball laughing while she was literally kicking me, and I couldn't stop laughing. No fear. If I were an extrovert, I would have reacted more drastically. If I were a dominant Feeler, I would not have been able to dissociate myself from my feelings and those feelings would have ruled me. Most importantly, with tertiary Se I would have at least at some point made subtle threats through my body language that would have tried to intimidate her, and I did not learn how to intimidate people until I was well into my late teens / 20s.


Now for this final part, to have anything meaningful to say, I would need to know much more about common reactions to growing up with abusive parents. With what I know now, I wouldn't be able to tell how much of this is type, and how much is simply a normal reaction to the situation. So, the only thing I can say is that to me personally your explanation here didn't really give me any new insights; in short: I don't have the framework to neither agree nor disagree intellectually and my feelings aren't convinced either.



> ENFJ just isn't adding up anymore. It's a really close second, but unless I switched from ENFJ very early in life, then went back and forth over the years, my ENFJ > INFJ > INFP > ENFJ > INFJ theory is losing weight. (Note, I haven't given up completely, but it's falling apart.)


I hope that you understand that I'm not trying to square you off as an ENFJ for the sake of it, its just that I don't get it all to add upp yet. I see it as a possibility that you in fact have been suppressing your ENFJ-ness from early life, and that discovering that would help your personal development, but unless you yourself feel that typing yourself as an ENFJ is in anyway helpful over seeing yourself as INFJ then it is at best a meaningless exercise and possibly misleading, if you in fact are not ENFJ. In any case, you would be a better judge of this than me, and unless you experience any dissonance as a result of seeing yourself as an INFJ (and I'm not sure how big issues the differences that you have described really are) then it would seem to me that INFJ is either what you have always been, or what you have become as a result of your childhood.

From a theoretical standpoint I would assume that the function roles of an INFJ and an ENFJ can be used to give similar end results and appearences. I'm thinking about two areas where I wonder how you think you have changed (or stayed the same) over the years. First, in relation to introversion and extraversion, it makes sense that you would have focused on your introverted functions during parts of your life, which would then give more prominence to Ni and Ti. Since you now are quite well balance on the E/I scale, I'm not sure how that would happen for an INFJ (with a natural I preference) without any pull in the E direction. Do you see any such thing? Secondly, have you looked at the shadow functions, and their respective function roles to see how that matches up? If hero, parent, puer, and anima, by themselves don't give enough clues, what about the rest. How would you relate to this, for instance: Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes ?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

penchant said:


> Thanks a lot! That was a brilliant post! I would only like to add that I have understood the aspirational inferior to be the function _most_ related to 'should' and 'ought to'. (Of course it makes sense for all the functions with an opposite attitude to the dominant to have that connotation...)
> 
> Now to Noblehearts post...


I understand them both to be shoulds but in a different way. Secondary is the should that you accept. Inferior is the should that you don't accept. My assumption/guess is that when you are developing Secondary, you will resist at first but since we develop it so young, it will be ingrained in us by now and we have enough proof for ourselves by experience with it that we accept it and know it is good through and through. It is the mother we choose for ourselves if we could have chosen a mother. Inferior on the other hand takes a lot longer to develop and we will be struggling with it our entire lives. We reject it for such a long time that if we were, at our age, to sum up all of our experiences with it, the answer would come up, as not as much mother, as some foreign thing we rejected for such a long period and have only had select experiences, mostly recently, that have started giving us the realization that we _should_ Se. It is more like the mother we chose to adopt later in life, and this one really works to complete the puzzle. 

Fe is comfy mother; Se is uncomfy mother until we finally conquer it/our fears and come to piece with living a life full of it. Some people never get around to doing this. I am still struggling. 

Sorry for that really long sentence with lots of commas in there.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

penchant said:


> I started a thread on INFJs and solitude (http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/40282-infjs-solitude.html) if you want to check it out...


I1 did, and I still have the stance that I gain energy from interacting in small groups. Being alone and being in crowds drains me. 

Being alone puts me in a dull empty state after a while, especially if there is nothing to occupy my mind. However, if I have something to think about and 'interact with', like playing a video game, making art, working on creative things like writing, or theorizing like I do on this forum, then I maintain a lower energy state and can do this indefinitely. Being alone with nothing to do will quickly send me into a tailspin of dark thought processes, and I'll end up depressed unmotivated and lethargic.

Being in a crowd irritates me. I need the cocoon effect when interacting with others or things, but I have to interact with someone or something. The more I look at how introverts and extroverts describe their experiences with respect to these things, the more I'm starting to think I really am an ambivert. I only identify with the most extroverted introverts and the most introverted extroverts.I'm really in between the two.



penchant said:


> I didn't get what the exception would be. It all sounds introversion to me.


The exception was that I can create the cocoon effect with strangers or out in public, quickly shutting anyone else out. Then again, I have a reflex to pay attention to my surroundings, so it's like a transparent cocoon effect, if that makes any sense. Kind of like a force field that allows me to stay in one on one or small group interactions. 



penchant said:


> I understand this is the common way of describing inferior Se, so you are probably correct, though I personally do not relate to this description of inferior Se.


I'm not so sure many inferior Se's do, but maybe this is something that comes with developing the function, which often happens after adolescence, even into the 20s or 30s depending on how well a person can adapt to life without it. If an Se inferior never had to develop Se, then it's likely that this effect would be much lessened.



penchant said:


> I like (and identify with) this part!
> 
> And here again...


This tells me that I have some strong INFJ traits, since you're very clearly Ni dominant. 



penchant said:


> This, not however. Or, well sometimes... but I do need to know what I am looking for (and be correct about it), otherwise my expectations will filter out reality so that I miss out on what I'm not expecting to see.


I've had a few friends (as in I've only ever known 3 people) who have my amazing ability to spot things. I didn't know the MBTI stuff back then, and never got them typed, but in retrospect I would have a lot of trouble typing them as INxJs or ENxJs. I got to know two of them (and could see into the third well enough to know that they were all victims of rather harsh child abuse. 

I wonder if this is a result of the need to be hyper vigilant to our abusers' moods actions or anything that could create an abuse episode more so than a result of cognitive function development. For instance, one Se user does acrobatics and dance, while another does martial arts but can't dance, still another plays football. There are many ways that cognitive functions can be developed, so I think I should stop focusing on whether or not others use their functions to do the same things I do, and more focused on the order of preference.

This hyper vigilance also makes me wonder if this is what caused me to have such an extroverted streak if I'm actually an introvert. Makes sense since it's a survival mechanic. It also makes sense that I had to seek the solution to my emotional needs outside my home with an abusive mother that I could rarely interact with without being abused, and a work-a-holic absentee father. I could have developed these traits out of necessity, but the fact that there was necessity implies that I was actually an extrovert. Either way, there is some manner of justification for unusual development and usage.



penchant said:


> I didn't state that explicitly, and I probably should have, but in my experience the 7-12 year descriptions are valid for the period before that as well. I don't know what they will post as IJ and EJ in the future, but I think that if you combine the INJ and the ISJ into one profile, that is about it. I assume the EJ will be a fusion of the ETJ and the EFJ profiles. It's really all about functions in the end anyway, just less developed, and less balanced by any auxiliaries.


Yeah, I dunno. Seems like I was more Ni than Fe. I lived in my imagination as a kid, even a young child. I can kinda see a strong Fi too.



penchant said:


> I understand that INJ fits as a glove for the 7-12 period. What concerns me is that it doesn't really make sense to me couple this with being E(F)J before the age of 7. And as there seems to be a reason for a substantial change in personality, I'm not yet fully convinced. But then, I guess, this is why some people would claim that there is no fixed personality before the age of 6-7.


Entirely possible either way. I was always a good kid, and concerned with being a good kid, but I was not what you'd call compliant the way that the Fe kids seem to be described. I was principles oriented. I did my own thing my own way most of the time having an inate sense of what was good or bad (one of the reasons I can see the possibility of Fi). This is also one of the things that made my mother's abuse so difficult for me. I knew good from bad, yet I was being abused no matter what I did. There was no fairness, no justice to it. I remember developing a resistance to being controlled by others at an early age and it grew as I got older. By the time I was a teenager, there was no telling me right from wrong. I knew the difference, and if you didn't that was your problem, and I wasn't backing down, but I had also become an expert at coming to mutually beneficial solutions. That was a developed skill, and I associate it with Fe and Ti.



penchant said:


> penchant said:
> 
> 
> > Now for this final part, to have anything meaningful to say, I would need to know much more about common reactions to growing up with abusive parents. With what I know now, I wouldn't be able to tell how much of this is type, and how much is simply a normal reaction to the situation. So, the only thing I can say is that to me personally your explanation here didn't really give me any new insights; in short: I don't have the framework to neither agree nor disagree intellectually and my feelings aren't convinced either.
> ...


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

I see a lot of Fe's who have been abused in childhood develop _extremely_ manipulative qualities as their defense against people later in life. It is how they try to control the situation so they don't end up getting hurt again. I know three off the top of my head. Two were girls. One was one of my best friends growing up in high school and college and now, another was a friend I had for about two years recently who I had to discontinue talking to because she could not control it to any extent or apologize for it ever, and a guy I just dated for a minute. He could apologize next day after the fact but I would not play along with his games and let them get to me, so I am unsure whether or not he would have apologized if he tactics would have actually worked. 

example: if he could have duped me and successfully changed the way I thought felt and acted, he might not have the need to apologize(maybe he only apologized because he is smart enough to realize that the only way to get me not thinking badly of him again is to apologize.) 

I have to distance myself from the long time friend and only be light friends because when I don't, she fixes her fangs into me and the cycle of manipulative abuse begins again. Her's is much more controlled and under the radar. It can take years to see what she has been doing. Catching her three times was enough. 

These people do not realize they are manipulative. I used to play manipulative emotional games along with the ones who manipulated me in the past and realized it is of no use and only destroys trust. You must allow people to be free. If you are one of these, you most likely will not realize it unless you have already realized you do it and are battling it.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I understand them both to be shoulds but in a different way. Secondary is the should that you accept. Inferior is the should that you don't accept. My assumption/guess is that when you are developing Secondary, you will resist at first but since we develop it so young, it will be ingrained in us by now and we have enough proof for ourselves by experience with it that we accept it and know it is good through and through. It is the mother we choose for ourselves if we could have chosen a mother. Inferior on the other hand takes a lot longer to develop and we will be struggling with it our entire lives. We reject it for such a long time that if we were, at our age, to sum up all of our experiences with it, the answer would come up, as not as much mother, as some foreign thing we rejected for such a long period and have only had select experiences, mostly recently, that have started giving us the realization that we _should_ Se. It is more like the mother we chose to adopt later in life, and this one really works to complete the puzzle.
> 
> Fe is comfy mother; Se is uncomfy mother until we finally conquer it/our fears and come to piece with living a life full of it. Some people never get around to doing this. I am still struggling.
> 
> Sorry for that really long sentence with lots of commas in there.


Thanks, that makes sense. I thought more about it after writing the last post too, and figured that the inferior is very much something "foreign" but that I still fell attracted to and something that I feel would be good for me, but that I'm not confident that I can do. The auxiliary is more like something that I know that I can, but am not always motivated to, more like something that is a part of me, but that I sometimes choose to ignore but know that I really shouldn't. In the same way, I don't feel bad about not using more Se – I just wish I had more of it – while a lack of Fe will make me feel that I'm not doing my best. That seems to me to fit well with the labels 'parent' and 'aspirational' too...

edit: and advanced sentence structures are just fun and as I see it really the only way to actually express in writing what is going on inside the head, so no need to apologise for that... :happy:


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I see a lot of Fe's who have been abused in childhood develop _extremely_ manipulative qualities as their defense against people later in life. It is how they try to control the situation so they don't end up getting hurt again. I know three off the top of my head. Two were girls. One was one of my best friends growing up in high school and college and now, another was a friend I had for about two years recently who I had to discontinue talking to because she could not control it to any extent or apologize for it ever, and a guy I just dated for a minute. He could apologize next day after the fact but I would not play along with his games and let them get to me, so I am unsure whether or not he would have apologized if he tactics would have actually worked.
> 
> example: if he could have duped me and successfully changed the way I thought felt and acted, he might not have the need to apologize(maybe he only apologized because he is smart enough to realize that the only way to get me not thinking badly of him again is to apologize.)
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention this. I've frequently been described and accused of being manipulative because I can be incredibly persuasive. I've been introduced to people as "He can talk you into anything and you won't realize he talked you into it until you're doing it." Problem is, I don't see it as manipulation. I'm very upfront about my persuasion. I tell people what I want and why it's a good idea. They generally go along with it because of my enthusiasm. I'm very sincere in caring about people and whatever it is that I'm persuading them into. I've very rarely used this ability for personal gain because I can't put my heart into it if I'm harming someone in any way. For example, if a woman seemed like she just wanted some good sex, then I had no problem talking her into a one night stand because I knew I could provide it - but if at any point in the process she seemed like she changed her mind, I stopped the persuasion process (which I found out later really frustrated more than a few women who like to play the resistance game). I have to point out that if I could talk to a woman, any woman, I could usually get what I wanted from her. I'm kinda notorious for this in my community, even though I was always quite a gentleman. However, I don't think you're talking about being able to walk up to a complete stranger and bed them within the hour as being manipulative. I think you're talking about long term manipulation that is very selfish and doesn't take the other person into consideration. No, I don't and will not do that consciously. However, looking back there were phases where I wasn't aware that I was being selfish, and I regret those.

And you're absolutely right, this is a survival trait of abuse victims - learn to manipulate your abuser so you don't get abused. Problem here is that my mother is a Borderline, so there's really nothing you can do to persuade them, as it's essentially a sociopathic disorder. On top of that she's an ESTJ, which I'm only now beginning to understand how they think. I don't think this trait in my case came from abuse, because I never really learned how to manipulate my mother, but in all honesty never had the drive to do so because it was so insincere, and if I can't be sincere, then I can't truly be loved, so why bother? I think it came from moving to a new school at least once a year most of my childhood. I had to learn how to adapt to new people, new cultural expectations, and new social environments over and over. I had to learn how to make friends, or I wouldn't have them until we moved again. I became quite adept at it during this period of my life. This is one of those moments where my Fe grew, but I remember rather clearly using Ni to figure out what to do and how. I learned how to pick out which side of myself was most appealing in any given moment.

Remembering certain parts of myself all of a sudden from this perspective... wow. I used all of my functions in really focused bursts. My mind was/is far more adaptable than I've given it credit, and looking back I remember developing the ability to become anything I needed to be, no matter what it was, nor how intense. I'd focus on what I needed to be, absorb it from people, formulate it, and then I would become it. There was always this underlying intensely unyieldingness to me, and it's only been since I lost my wife that I've finally lost a lot of that. The strange part is I was always unyieldingly 'good'. Even in those phases in my college years when I was having one night stands, I felt like a bad person for it, felt like I was using them, even though I knew they were using me too. A good person doesn't have one night stands, so it bothered me enough that I quit doing so, even though I know that I could at any time.

I think part of my problem is that I've done this mental shapeshifting thing so long, maybe I really don't know who I am, and am only able to go off of the parts I have at current. What a disheartening thought.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

It seems that you are running around back and forth with all this info. It does not seem to be helping you make a decision. You still feel some key piece of info is needed to bring it all together for you. You have a ridiculous amount of info on the subject. 

Maybe you need to start focusing on what you do not want to know about yourself rather than what you do want to know. 

Maybe you need to scare yourself with a horrible realization and cry it out. 

Do you know how your shadow manifests?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> It seems that you are running around back and forth with all this info. It does not seem to be helping you make a decision. You still feel some key piece of info is needed to bring it all together for you. You have a ridiculous amount of info on the subject.


True. This means that I'm not seeing something obvious.



Unicorntopia said:


> Maybe you need to start focusing on what you do not want to know about yourself rather than what you do want to know.


I think it's more that I'm too focused on the details to see the big picture. This proves to me that I'm deep into an Ni + Ti loop, constantly trying to refine and clarify.



Unicorntopia said:


> Maybe you need to scare yourself with a horrible realization and cry it out.


Taking a look at how I used to be in my darkest hours compared to where I am now was scary enough. But I thought about it and realized that I'm just not that person anymore, and that's a truly good thing. That part of myself isn't lurking in there anymore. 

However, I have a lot of trouble crying. I've needed to many times in my life and couldn't. The only time I could truly cry was when I lost my wife, and I sobbed until I didn't have tears left every day for months. Since then, I really haven't been able to, and I've wished that I could.



Unicorntopia said:


> Do you know how your shadow manifests?


It's very selfish, and can be quite a fleshy jackass, almost entirely the opposite of my 'true self'. If I had to guess, it seems like a bad version of INFP, but at times it can seem very much like ESTP possibly ENFP. When I take cognitive function tests, my Fi always scores the highest of my shadow functions, and I am very certain that I went through a lot of INFP phases in my childhood. The ESTP and ENFP modes happened later in life, probably once I developed my Se (for ESTP mode) and had started to switch into INFJ state (which would turn that shadow into ENFP).

In a really weird way, I think I've merged my shadow with my true self in the past few years. In a lot of ways, now that I look at it, I think I forged my shadow into something benevolent (or hammered out the bad things), and absorbed it. I think a lot of the realization was looking back at how my shadow used to manifest. I'm really not that person anymore, and all of a sudden that realization is pretty awesome. I think this means I've developed healthy control of my shadow functions (or am far enough along in the process that it's mostly downhill from here). That's pretty awesome.

Back to the type discussion...

I gave it some thought, and the reason I can't let go of the ENFJ to INFJ shift is because it's the one that seems right, even though it defies the 'box'. I think the problem is that my Ni + Ti can't clarify it into fitting the definition, so it keeps trying.

If this is the case and I was an ENFJ who became an INFJ, which type does that make me? Am I an ENFJ with INFJ leanings so strong that I appear to be an INFJ, yet am still at my core an ENFJ? Or have I fully switched my preferences and am now an INFJ? I guess this comes down to whether or not people can actually change their inherent preferences. 

At least I've gotten some clarity on what happened and where I am now, even though I really don't like the idea of being an exception to the rule... but if this actually is the case, then I suppose that gives me a great deal of advantages if I choose to embrace them.

All this said, does this make me an ENFJ or INFJ? Or does it make me a true ambivert (ANFJ)?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't think people change types. I think you choose at or around birth and everything else is adaptation. I know I choose introversion at birth because my mother always tells me "your sister (ENTP) was born facing outwards (always wanting to look at everything that was going on around them as opposed to looking at my mother) and you were born facing inwards (and I continued to be rather quiet, shy, sensitive, and picky)." My best guess is that it is Ni since I relate very well to its descriptions and I do not relate well to P descriptions. After that, the rest is adaptation(Fe, Ti, Se). I believe there are plenty of introverts who have adapted an extroverted attitude at some point in life and see no reason to introvert again. It still means it is an adaptation or choice made later in life, not their original preference. 

Healthy individuals cannot be typed as the are now. You must examine how they were from the beginning and then see which functions were picked up as they grew.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> I don't think people change types. I think you choose at or around birth and everything else is adaptation. I know I choose introversion at birth because my mother always tells me "your sister (ENTP) was born facing outwards (always wanting to look at everything that was going on around them as opposed to looking at my mother) and you were born facing inwards (and I continued to be rather quiet, shy, sensitive, and picky)." My best guess is that it is Ni since I relate very well to its descriptions and I do not relate well to P descriptions. After that, the rest is adaptation(Fe, Ti, Se). I believe there are plenty of introverts who have adapted an extroverted attitude at some point in life and see no reason to introvert again. It still means it is an adaptation or choice made later in life, not their original preference.
> 
> Healthy individuals cannot be typed as the are now. You must examine how they were from the beginning and then see which functions were picked up as they grew.


So, you think this means I'm an INFJ or ENFJ?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> So, you think this means I'm an INFJ or ENFJ?


What do you remember your mother saying about you as a baby and up to the age of about 6, and do you have any memories of this time period? 

I think this is the only way to type someone who goes back and forth so often and so extremely.


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## penchant (Sep 20, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> So, you think this means I'm an INFJ or ENFJ?


You come back to asking for definite answers, not only from yourself about your type, but also from me and Unicorn here. It there something that you find particularly discouraging about not knowing for sure?

And, another idea that I'm not really sure about going down that path either, but: As you talk about your childhood, have other people given you external confirmation of your own subjective understanding of it or do you rely solely on your own memories. If so, that memory might not be a reliable source of information, especially if there is something that you could have reason to repress.

I hope you don't mind these questions, but I'm starting to think that going after the reason that you find it difficult to choose itself might be meaningful...


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> What do you remember your mother saying about you as a baby and up to the age of about 6, and do you have any memories of this time period?


My mother's opinion is not especially valid as she's crazy, and prone to projecting what she wants things to be onto her reality. My dad was quite an absentee father, and to be honest I doubt he'd be able to give me an objective opinion rather than simply trying to tell me what I want to hear because he just doesn't think about these kinds of things. Other than that, I don't have many people I could even begin to ask about this, as I'm quite old and most who would have a clear memory of me as a child have passed away.

I think I'm going to go dig up old family albums and take a good look at myself as a child as if I were looking at photos of someone else, and decide what type I'd assign that child. This will also help me remember how I thought and felt at those ages.



penchant said:


> You come back to asking for definite answers, not only from yourself about your type, but also from me and Unicorn here. It there something that you find particularly discouraging about not knowing for sure?


Actually, yes. This might sound strange, but last year when I was about to give up on determining which type I am, INFJ or ENFJ, I randomly ended up having to do tech support for a pastor (who was acting as a motivational speaker) and his message was "Figure yourself out". He even spcifically said "Figure out who you are, if you're an introvert or an extrovert." I took that as a sign, and have been trying to determine which it is. That's the biggest reason I won't let it go. The next is for credibility - I can't help others if I don't know myself. And last is self help - I can't help myself heal if I don't know myself, and I've been in the process of healing since I lost my wife.



penchant said:


> And, another idea that I'm not really sure about going down that path either, but: As you talk about your childhood, have other people given you external confirmation of your own subjective understanding of it or do you rely solely on your own memories. If so, that memory might not be a reliable source of information, especially if there is something that you could have reason to repress.


As mentioned above, I no longer live in the area where I did at that age, and have very few relatives who knew me at that age who could offer an opinion, unfotunately. However, yes, I agree that an outside opinion would be very helpful to determine how much is my own projection and repression. Hopefully looking at old photos will help me summon up recognition based memories, rather than forcing me to rely purely on recall.



penchant said:


> I hope you don't mind these questions, but I'm starting to think that going after the reason that you find it difficult to choose itself might be meaningful...


I don't mind at all. I really appreciate them. You guys are both helping me think in directions I hadn't considered.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Sometimes facial expressions and vibes can be better read in photos. What type would you guess based on these pictures? INFJ or ENFJ?

View attachment 1607
View attachment 1608
View attachment 1609
View attachment 1610
View attachment 1611


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

You know what? I don't think it matters what type I was. I'm pretty clearly an INFJ now, whether or not I always have been. Life is future focused. Where do we go from here and how do we plan? Sometimes you don't need to know where you have been to understand where you are going. Sometimes you only need to know where you are, and go from there.

At this point, the question of what I have been and how I got here is really only important to the study of how cognitive functions can work, operate, and adapt under certain conditions. I really do appreciate everyone's help with this, and I can fully admit that I am still very curious to get to the bottom of what I was and how I got here, so please don't think I'm just doorslamming this thread. I'm not.

I am just saying that whether or not people change types, or however this works, I'm an INFJ now. This may someday change, but my current type is INFJ, and that answers the question "What NF am I?"


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> Sometimes facial expressions and vibes can be better read in photos. What type would you guess based on these pictures? INFJ or ENFJ?
> 
> View attachment 1607
> View attachment 1608
> ...





Nobleheart said:


> You know what? I don't think it matters what type I was. I'm pretty clearly an INFJ now, whether or not I always have been. Life is future focused. Where do we go from here and how do we plan? Sometimes you don't need to know where you have been to understand where you are going. Sometimes you only need to know where you are, and go from there.
> 
> At this point, the question of what I have been and how I got here is really only important to the study of how cognitive functions can work, operate, and adapt under certain conditions. I really do appreciate everyone's help with this, and I can fully admit that I am still very curious to get to the bottom of what I was and how I got here, so please don't think I'm just doorslamming this thread. I'm not.
> 
> I am just saying that whether or not people change types, or however this works, I'm an INFJ now. This may someday change, but my current type is INFJ, and that answers the question "What NF am I?"


I don't know man... In the end it's up to you. You seem like both. 

And actually, I don't think we can decide until you decide. If you decide, we will be able to read where you are coming from and tell you. I think since you have so many defense mechanisms for letting people know you, it is very difficult for us. xNFJs can pretty much lead others to believe whatever they want them to believe about them. 

I use this place as a place where I can just say whatever so I can get to the bottom of things. There won't be any repercussions since it is anonymous. I don't know about you but it really stresses me out and bothers me to be back and forth about stuff and unable to make a decision that I can stick with most likely forever. Of course I always have reevaluation times but over all, you know. 

If you don't know which one you are, then pick the one you like best. If is not the correct one, most likely after a while you will realize you were fooling yourself because of some insecurities and then start being confident and loving the person you truly are. 

Wish you the best of luck. :happy:


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

So here's an interesting thing that occurred to me.

This is an illustration of the Limbic System.










According to a study going on in Berkley involving the cognitive function test and an MRI scanner...

Ni _seems_ to reside mostly in the Cingulate Gyrus.
Ne _seems_ to reside mostly in the Cingulate Gyrus and the Corpus Callosum.
Fi _seems_ to reside mostly in the Limbic System (Instinctive Centers).
Fe _seems_ to reside mostly in the Limbic System and Frontal Lobe.

(Note that these are theories at the moment in an ongoing study, and not proven fact)

Note that the Cingulate Gyrus (Ni, and to a lesser extent Ne) are involved in survival behavior. This may be a very clear explanation of the 'hyper vigilance' of child abuse victims I've mentioned before, and why so many of us appear to have strong Ni. The other thing to mention is that this illustration doesn't show that the Cingulate Gyrus presses directly against the sensory centers, implying the direct relationship between Ni and Se. Meanwhile, the Corpus Callosum has a direct connection to the memory centers of the mind, implying the connection between Ne and Si. In other words, Se and Ni need each other to function. Si needs Ne to function, and vice versa.

In addition, because the Cingulate Gyrus and the Corpus Callosum are part of the overall Limbic System, this may explain why so many NFs have a strong Fi. However, the very interesting point here is that all four of the NF functions are very close to one another and contained within the same cerebral system, implying that there is a lot more overlap and 'gray area' with the NF types than previously considered. 

While other types tend to have more geographically distinct centers for their functions, NF functions are all clustered very close together, making it much more likely that NF types have a lot of ambiguity among themselves. INFPs, ENFPs, INFJs, and even ENFJs essentially share the same cerebral components. The only difference in the types is which components they lean on more, and this means that if they shift the balance of the way that they lean on these components even slightly, effective type can change. 

This isn't the case with any of the other type sets (NT, SP, or SJ) because they don't share cerebral geography unto themselves. Any shifting would require a great deal of mental rewiring - which validates the idea that type doesn't change.

However, in the case of NFs, due to this intricate interaction, I believe it is possible that NFs can actually change type with enough external pressure to do so. 

This also explains the NF 'mental shapeshifting' ability, as NFs can develop the ability to change the slight leanings within their Limbic Systems.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> Sometimes facial expressions and vibes can be better read in photos. What type would you guess based on these pictures? INFJ or ENFJ?
> 
> View attachment 1607
> View attachment 1608
> ...


Judging by these pictures I would say ENFJ.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> Judging by these pictures I would say ENFJ.



Cool. That's one of the ENFJ friends I mentioned earlier in the thread. I just wanted to test the typing ability of those of you still in the thread. I might post my own pics at some point to verify, but I'm shy about that. The reason I posted someone else's was because there would be no point to attempt to overcome my shyness if you weren't accurate with someone else. It was a control group. Sorry for the potential deception.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I am revisiting this thread for two reasons. One, I am still ambiguous about my type. Surprise surprise. Two, I found these quotes that make a lot of sense about why I'm having trouble discerning my type.



> “Parents can give children three kinds of messages,” says Katherine Myers, INFP, trainer and consultant in psychological type, “to be what you are, to be something you’re not, or mixed messages, where one day you’re OK and the next day you’re not, with the same behavior.”
> 
> “Initially, there are usually some people who can’t decide on one or two dimensions,” says Jean Kummerow, ESTJ, psychologist and co-author of Lifetypes (Warner, 1989). “But after reading more and giving it more time, things fall into place for them. However, about 3 in 100 people can’t decide after a long period of time. When they do seek further help (and it’s mostly the NFs who do that, since they’re usually the most interested in self-knowledge), I’ve noticed a pattern of difficult childhoods, often with chemically dependent family members. As children, they didn’t get consistent messages from their parents. They tried everything to get the approval of their parents, and kept switching, and now they don’t know who they are.”


My mother suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder, and one thing I can say with all certainty about her was that very little was certain growing up. I was just as likely to be beaten as coddled over the same behaviors. 

This explains a lot, and validates my inability to settle upon a type in any given system.

I am rather certain I'm an NF, and I generally test N over F. I usually test INFJ, though sometimes ENFJ. Though sometimes I consider if I might be an INFP, ENFP, INTP or ISTP. I could really see any of them applying to myself. I claim INFJ because based on test results, feedback, and comparing myself to people of various types this seems to be the most likely case. I'd consider ENFJ next likely, followed by INFP, ISTP, ENFP, and INTP as a remote last possibility (which assumes I have almost no idea who I am as I've seen INTPs convince themselves of all manner of things, and I do tend to favor Ni and Ti, especially when I'm confused and over clarifying patterns that don't seem to fit). 

In all cases, I can see where I might have been one type or another inherently, and moved through some of the others as I developed. I could see where I might have actually been an ENFJ probably an Enneagram 2 or 9, but my childhood pushed me into my introverted functions and shadow modes, which developed a lot of INFJ and INFP traits. I'm constantly at odds with the idea that I could be an Fe or Ti dom, and not an Ni dom. I could also see how I've convinced myself of these and I'm actually an INFP, but I have an amazing ability to click with Fe users and inadvertently upset Fi users who often pick up on my Fe as toxic. 

Therefore, this "ENFJ Interrupted" theory seems to hold.

ENFJ > INFP shadow mode would create strong shadow Fi (which I often score on cognitive function tests)
ENFJ > INFJ stress mode would create strong Ni and Ti loops (which I clearly have)
ENFJ > INFP or INFJ modes would diminish my Fe and make it much less confident as a dominant function, even though it likely governs my other functions, it's more like a weak king that uses the opinions of his regents to make his decisions. It's still technically in charge but often relents an opinion. This creates a situation where Fe can infrequently flare up and take over, and the other functions are better developed, they still technically defer to Fe.

That almost makes perfect sense. Then again, I could be an INFJ who had to develop Se out of hyper vigilance. The end result would be almost identical (an overlap of all functions mentioned), and very difficult to discern. If I were originally INFJ, I'd assume my Ne would be stronger.

However, I am starting to think that the regardless of where I started, the end result is that I am unable to discern my type because I am now several.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Nobleheart
what were you like as a child?
Portrait of an ENP Child
Portrait of an EFJ Child
Portrait of an IFP Child
Portrait of an INJ Child

so far I'm thinking INFJ


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Nobleheart
> what were you like as a child?
> Portrait of an ENP Child
> Portrait of an EFJ Child
> ...


For ages 7-12, INJ is almost a 100% match and EFJ is about an 85% match.

For ages 0-6, EFJ seems to be a better match. However, my child abuse issues started around age 5.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Nobleheart said:


> For ages 7-12, INJ is almost a 100% match and EFJ is about an 85% match.
> For ages 0-6, EFJ seems to be a better match.


I think the sucking at Fe/politeness fail is just being an 8. I've talked to a few NFJ 8s and I got this vibe from most of them as well. Fe is somewhat obligation/service oriented; 8 is acquisition, Id and independence oriented (I often mistake Fe/Ti using 8s to be Fi users for this reason, and a lot of them probably do too). to an NFJ 8, Fe might seem inhibiting, fraudulent, invasive or wishy-washy. most of the NFJ 8s I've met had a better sense of personal boundaries and seemed quite fond of Te users even though they were kind of confused by them.

ENFJ 8s: Martin Luther King Jr., Charles Manson, Jules Winfield, the stereotypical black preacher, 
INFJ 8s: Wyatt Earp (Tombstone), Aslan (Chronicles of Narnia), Aragorn (Lord of the Rings)
ENFP 8s: Sean Penn, Darth Vader, Jessye Norman
INFP 8s: the only definite example I can think of is a video game character. Sean Penn might actually be an INFP though

Edit:
ENFJ 8s: gregarious, expansive, take charge, often become head of organizations, charismatic, great motivators of people (lots of dictators are probably this type lol)
INFJ 8s: mysterious, keep to themselves, often look like ISTPs or INTJs, protective (I kinda think of a knight guarding a princess when I think of this type)
ENFP 8s: intense, more solid and grounded than other ENFPs, often look like SPs


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I think the sucking at Fe/politeness fail is just being an 8. I've talked to a few NFJ 8s and I got this vibe from most of them as well. Fe is somewhat obligation/service oriented; 8 is acquisition, Id and independence oriented (I often mistake Fe/Ti using 8s to be Fi users for this reason, and a lot of them probably do too). to an NFJ 8, Fe might seem inhibiting, fraudulent, invasive or wishy-washy. most of the NFJ 8s I've met had a better sense of personal boundaries and seemed quite fond of Te users even though they were kind of confused by them.


Agreed. However, I am also doubting my Enneagram type lately, so this might not be something I can orient from.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> ENFJ 8s: Martin Luther King Jr., Charles Manson, Jules Winfield, the stereotypical black preacher,
> INFJ 8s: Wyatt Earp (Tombstone), Aslan (Chronicles of Narnia), Aragorn (Lord of the Rings)
> ENFP 8s: Sean Penn, Darth Vader, Jessye Norman
> INFP 8s: the only definite example I can think of is a video game character


Here's where we disagree a little.

Dr. Martin Luther King was an INFJ and an Enneagram 1. He was a reformer who wanted things to be done right and fair without violence or aggression. Malcom X was an 8. Aside from the stereotypical black preacher (arguably depending on the interpretation of the stereotype), your ENFJ 8 options are technically villains.

Wyatt Earp in just about any recounting was an S type. Aside from this, your INFJ 8 examples are all heroes. This puts me in a position where I'm reflexively inclined to identify more with the latter group. Wyatt Earp, Aslan, and Aragorn are all personal heroes. It would be difficult for me not to want to claim your INFJ 8 group as more similar to myself than your ENFJ 8 group. It sort of stacks the deck in favor of your hypothesis.

Vader was an NTJ of some sort, most likely an ENTJ who went INTJ under stress. He's clearly a Te/Fi user as well as a clear Ni user (seeking the one answer rather than the possibilities). However, I bring this up because his character actually illustrates the principle I mentioned a few posts above about how a person's development can create a hybrid type. Vader is a Te dominant (he delegates and domineers) but his Ni is stronger than his Te. His is Fi is very strong as well, but poorly developed implying an inferior function preference. Though Vader starts at Te (the most villainous function in the perspective of an INFJ aka George Lucas who was trying to write a villain), Vader's Ni actually has more power in his personality, perspective, and decision making process. I'm sure this was the result of an INFJ (Ni dom) trying to write a Te dom and falling back on their own Ni, but the effect is a good illustration of what I'm piecing together here both for myself and others who have had conflicting signals in their development and have become people who have more strength in their secondary and inferior functions than their dominant and tertiary. The end result is a criss cross of the I and E versions of any given type set that creates a lot of internal conflict - as seen in Vader through the course of his character's story.

Here's that graphic I posted earlier in this thread to illustrate the effect...

View attachment 29525


When someone's secondary and inferior functions are more developed than their dominant and tertiary, the end result looks and functions a lot like its inverse type.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Nobleheart
- Martin Luther King is an 8w9 integrated to 2. 8s at their best are heroic, protective of their loved ones/social group and able to channel their charisma toward whatever they do. Martin Luther King as a type 8 is agreed upon by virtually every practitioner of the enneagram.
- Anakin could very well be an xSFP (also Ni/Te), in fact, I'm leaning this direction more and more, but his natural tendencies are not those of a Te dom or aux. he is irrational, impulsive and improvises without much thought. he uses Te much more under stress 
- George Lucas is an INFP or INTJ. he is definitely an Fi/Te user (I tend to lean INFP, I think I see Ne in there somewhere)
- I was referring specifically about Kurt Russel's interpretation of Wyatt Earp in Tombstone (a great movie, it's on youtube if you haven't seen it). I can't say I know much about the real Wyatt Earp though, you could right
- I tend to use extreme examples when comparing to make the point more clear (I apologize if this threw you off, I'll try to think of some more "typical" examples)


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Martin Luther King is an 8w9 integrated to 2. 8s at their best are heroic, protective of their loved ones/social group and able to channel their charisma toward whatever they do. Martin Luther King as a type 8 is agreed upon by virtually every practitioner of the enneagram.


Ghandi is often assumed to be an INFJ 8 as well. I could be wrong, but I see them both as 1's. I am finding that 8's are more domineering and concerned with themselves than others, even when integrated. At best they are helpful and easily able to overlook the failings of others. 8's don't push for reform like a 1 does. If I'm wrong about this, it would certainly explain why I'm considering that I'm not an 8 recently.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Anakin could very well be an xSFP (also Ni/Te), in fact, I'm leaning this direction more and more, but his natural tendencies are not those of a Te dom or aux. he is irrational, impulsive and improvises without much thought. he uses Te much more under stress


As an ENTJ, Anakin would have frequently dipped into shadow mode (ISFP) as his character progressed toward the dark side. This would illustrate how I dip into ISTP mode at times. 

However, I think the character was too poorly written and acted to really define him through specific MBTI terms, so I'm not trying to debate his type so much as use the character as an analogy and illustration of what I'm trying to describe about this criss-cross development pattern.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - George Lucas is an INFP or INTJ. he is definitely an Fi/Te user (I tend to lean INFP, I think I see Ne in there somewhere)


Lucas has a very hard time expressing what he wants from his actors and crew (Ni). He's at his heart a technical craftsman special effects innovator (Ti), and has tried to clarify and redefine his movies repeatedly (classic Ni + Ti loop evidenced by this being more important than the fans' expectations = Ni + Ti > Fe). The Jedi are almost a perfect exaggeration of the NFJ personality. Ni sees the one answer. Fe serves others not the self. Ti seeks the truth. Se combines with Ni to do the Jedi swordsmanship stuff. I'd have a very hard time believing Lucas is not an INFJ (and trust me, I don't want this guy on my team after he's raped my childhood like he has). The original Jedi Code as written by Lucas is about as NFJ as it gets.

Emotion, yet peace. (Fe's seeking of harmony and connection)
Ignorance, yet knowledge. (Ni's I don't know how I know, I just do.)
Passion, yet serenity. (The resolution of Fe's need to serve the self and others)
Chaos, yet harmony. (Ni finding the pattern in the disorder and confusion)
Death, yet the Force. (Ti's truth and Se's reality supporting Ni and Fe's ideals)



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - I was referring specifically about Kurt Russel's interpretation of Wyatt Earp in Tombstone (a great movie, it's on youtube if you haven't seen it). I can't say I know much about the real Wyatt Earp though, you could right


I own it. Very good film, and I see what you mean there. However, I always see Kurt Russel as an ISTP (Snake Pliskin) or ESTP (Jack Burton). I also own several other versions of the Wyatt Earp story and am an avid fan of the historical accounts. If you can stomach Costner and the slow pace of the first half of the film, the movie "Wyatt Earp" is the most accurate historical portrayal I have found. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> - I tend to use extreme examples when comparing to make the point more clear (I apologize if this threw you off, I'll try to think of some more "typical" examples)


Not a problem at all. I prefer to speak in analogies, especially ones that use fictional reference points. It makes things more clear to us NFs.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Nobleheart said:


> Ghandi is often assumed to be an INFJ 8 as well. I could be wrong, but I see them both as 1's. I am finding that 8's are more domineering and concerned with themselves than others, even when integrated. At best they are helpful and easily able to overlook the failings of others. 8's don't push for reform like a 1 does. If I'm wrong about this, it would certainly explain why I'm considering that I'm not an 8 recently.


- Ghandi is 1w2 Sx/So or So/Sx
- Martin Luther King is an 8 and would match the below description from enneagram institute perfectly


> Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness.
> Level 2: Self-assertive, self-confident, and strong: have learned to stand up for what they need and want. A resourceful, "can do" attitude and passionate inner drive.
> Level 3: Decisive, authoritative, and commanding: the natural leader others look up to. Take initiative, make things happen: champion people, provider, protective, and honorable, carrying others with their strength.





> As an ENTJ, Anakin would have frequently dipped into shadow mode (ISFP) as his character progressed toward the dark side. This would illustrate how I dip into ISTP mode at times.
> However, I think the character was too poorly written and acted to really define him through specific MBTI terms, so I'm not trying to debate his type so much as use the character as an analogy and illustration of what I'm trying to describe about this criss-cross development pattern.


he uses Te when he is stressed. when he is healthy he is impulsive, spontaneous, free spirited and disorganized. an ENTJ would not struggle with the same issues of rationality and feelings that he did. 



> Lucas has a very hard time expressing what he wants from his actors and crew (Ni). He's at his heart a technical craftsman special effects innovator (Ti), and has tried to clarify and redefine his movies repeatedly (classic Ni + Ti loop evidenced by this being more important than the fans' expectations = Ni + Ti > Fe). The Jedi are almost a perfect exaggeration of the NFJ personality. Ni sees the one answer. Fe serves others not the self. Ti seeks the truth. Se combines with Ni to do the Jedi swordsmanship stuff. I'd have a very hard time believing Lucas is not an INFJ (and trust me, I don't want this guy on my team after he's raped my childhood like he has). The original Jedi Code as written by Lucas is about as NFJ as it gets.


all of this sounds INTJ to me



> Emotion, yet peace. (Fe's seeking of harmony and connection)
> Ignorance, yet knowledge. (Ni's I don't know how I know, I just do.)
> Passion, yet serenity. (The resolution of Fe's need to serve the self and others)
> Chaos, yet harmony. (Ni and Fe)
> Death, yet the Force. (Ti's truth and Se's reality supporting Ni and Fe's ideals)


this all sounds more like Fi to me




> I own it. Very good film, and I see what you mean there. However, I always see Kurt Russel as an ISTP (Snake Pliskin) or ESTP (Jack Burton). I also own several other versions of the Wyatt Earp story and am an avid fan of the historical accounts. If you can stomach Costner and the slow pace of the first half of the film, the movie "Wyatt Earp" is the most accurate historical portrayal I have found.


- Wyatt is harmony seeking; ISTPs are adventure seeking
- Wyatt goes stress ESxP under stress and goes crazy shooting cowboys left and right, very similar to my INTJ friend under stress
- Wyatt is organized, calculated, deliberate and "work first, play later" it's why he is so confused by Josephine who is an E?FP 7w6 Sx/Sp (an SP would get her spontaneity and free spirited-ness more easily)



> Not a problem at all. I prefer to speak in analogies, especially ones that use fictional reference points. It makes things more clear to us NFs.


that's good, this is a problem for a lot of people lol


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - Ghandi is 1w2 Sx/So or So/Sx
> - Martin Luther King is an 8 and would match the below description from enneagram institute perfectly


It also describes Ghandi. These two men had a lot in common, and not all Enneagram enthusiasts agree on their types.



Swordsman of Mana said:


> he uses Te when he is stressed. when he is healthy he is impulsive, spontaneous, free spirited and disorganized. an ENTJ would not struggle with the same issues of rationality and feelings that he did.
> 
> - Wyatt is harmony seeking; ISTPs are adventure seeking
> - Wyatt goes stress ESxP under stress and goes crazy shooting cowboys left and right, very similar to my INTJ friend under stress
> - Wyatt is organized, calculated, deliberate and "work first, play later" it's why he is so confused by Josephine who is an E?FP 7w6 Sx/Sp (an SP would get her spontaneity and free spirited-ness more easily)


I think you're over extending the differences between J and P. The difference between Fe and Te J are rather significant, as are the differences between Se and Ne P - especially in introverts. I don't think you doubt that I'm a J. I'm definitely a play first and work later person. I need to force myself to work first and play later. Most of the INFJs I know are like this, as are many of the ENFJs who are interact first, work second.

Meanwhile, ISTPs are not especially adventure seeking. Sure it's on their list, but they are primarily clarifiers and doers. Wyatt didn't seek harmony. He sought order. That's very Ti supported by a need to serve others (Fe). The reason Josephine was such a mystery to him was because she was very likely an ENFP, with Ne and Fi being entirely alien to him. ISTPs live in the 'real world'. ENFPs live in... well... you live there. ;-)

Meanwhile, Vader uses Fi when stressed to support his Te. He bolsters his own demanding and how he feels things should be. When things are going well and according to his Te, Vader is not stressed. The character is never care free, but he does live in the moment. That's Te and Ni supported by Se. I know several ENTJs who act almost exactly the same when they're in a good spot. NO ONE parties like an ENTJ when they cut loose. Anikin being an ENTJ in a primarily INFJ and ENFJ organization would create exactly the sorts of conflicts, confusions, and resentments that happened in the films.

Again, this approach is designed to support my criss-cross function theory, not to seriously attempt to debate a poorly written and even more poorly acted fictional character's MBTI type (which isn't possible to determine).


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

I don't remeber if I mentioned this already but many of the Fe doms I know, especially ENFJs, describe themselves as intovertes who love people and want to help them. They often say they are shy. I understand how they might feel this way since they are feelers and they want to connect with people and relate to them so badly. It is a nessecity for how they operate. One of the main differenses between INFJS and ENFJs is ENFJs in general have the ability to move on more quickly from relationship to relationship since they prefer they outside world to the inside. They find comfort in the outside relationship when they are stressed and the INFJ will find comfort retreating within themaelves. Of course there are exeptions and I am not saying every Fe dom will go running to someone new as soon as relationship ends but they will atleast need plenty of Fe time even if it is just from freinds and family.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Add to your statements my theory about how an ENFJ could develop stronger Ni than Fe and stronger Ti than Se, and it looks very possible that I am actually an ENFJ that appears very much like an INFJ.

Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

I've been trying to discern how this process could have worked in reverse, making an INFJ seem like an ENFJ by creating stronger Fe than Ni and stronger Se than Ti, and that seems almost the opposite of me. However, it seems a lot like a dear friend of mine.

The question is then, is it possible for cognitive function preference order to change or not?


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

Nobleheart said:


> The question is then, is it possible for cognitive function preference order to change or not?


Carl Jung said it was possible for one's type to change. I saw it in a video posted in a thread. I think it may have been famous INFJs or what and INFJs looks like in the stickied INFJ threads.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Unicorntopia said:


> Carl Jung said it was possible for one's type to change. I saw it in a video posted in a thread. I think it may have been famous INFJs or what and INFJs looks like in the stickied INFJ threads.


I recall him saying that. In fact, he stated that people will likely change their type several times through the course of their life. I suppose I'm proving no exception to that, and regardless of how I got here, I'm an INFJ now. The only reason how I got here matters is that it provided me with strengthened functions, most notably Fe, Fi, and Se. I think I'm cool with this.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Here are my score averages between 2007 and 2012

(Ni) (41.5)
(Fe) (39.1)
(Fi) (32.5)
(Ti) (29.6)
(Se) (29.3)
(Ne) (27.3) 
(Te) (24.7)
(Si) (18.7)

These are my scores from each year (2007 at the top down to 2012 at the bottom) each grouped by cognitive function. I included the asterisks to illustrate departure from the lowest score in each group.

My Ni scores have been pretty consistent.

introverted Intuiting (Ni) **(41.8)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) (39.1)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *****(44.5)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) **(41.1)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***(42)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *(40.7)

I think my Fe took a dip when I was depressed, but is again stable.

extraverted Feeling (Fe) (31.6)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************(43.3)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *******(38.4)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ****(35.2)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********(38.9)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *******(38.6)

I would assume that my Fi is again stable, after a spike in shadow function when I was depressed in 2008-2010

introverted Feeling (Fi) *(29.8)
introverted Feeling (Fi) ****(33.1)
introverted Feeling (Fi) ********(37.3)
introverted Feeling (Fi) ********(37.2)
introverted Feeling (Fi) *(29.9)
introverted Feeling (Fi) (28.6)

I think my Ti is stable, and the first two years were inflated self opinion.

introverted Thinking (Ti) *******(34.8)
introverted Thinking (Ti) *********(36)
introverted Thinking (Ti) (27.2)
introverted Thinking (Ti) ****(31.9)
introverted Thinking (Ti) **(29.7)
introverted Thinking (Ti) *(28.5)

I think my Se is stable, and the first two years were inflated self opinion.

extraverted Sensing (Se) ************(35.8)
extraverted Sensing (Se) *************(36)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ***(26.2)
extraverted Sensing (Se) (23.9)
extraverted Sensing (Se) **(25.7)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ****(27.6)

Aside from an aberration which may have been shadow function due to depression, my Ne seems stable.

extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (25.8)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (25.9)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (25.3)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *******(32.2)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *(26.9)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) **(27.5)

My Te seems to be improving.

extraverted Thinking (Te) (17.5)
extraverted Thinking (Te) *(18.2)
extraverted Thinking (Te) *******(24.6)
extraverted Thinking (Te) *****(22.7)
extraverted Thinking (Te) *********(26.8)
extraverted Thinking (Te) *********(26.5)

My Si seems to be improving.

introverted Sensing (Si) *(16.4)
introverted Sensing (Si) **(17.7)
introverted Sensing (Si) ********(23.1)
introverted Sensing (Si) (15.8)
introverted Sensing (Si) *****(20.7)
introverted Sensing (Si) *******(22.4)

Here are today's results isolated, which are in the exact same order as my averages, and very close to those scores as well.

introverted Intuiting (Ni) (40.7)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) (38.6)
introverted Feeling (Fi) (28.6)
introverted Thinking (Ti) (28.5)
extraverted Sensing (Se) (27.6)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (27.5)
extraverted Thinking (Te) (26.5)
introverted Sensing (Si) (22.4)


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