# Dominant or Inferior Fi?



## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

ScarlettHayden said:


> But... is your family situation usually like this? Have you generally suffered a lot of anger from things going on? I don't know but I just had a feeling you might do. Because if you do then telling your type is going to be harder too. Unstable emotions tend to change our defenses, as you said you keep quiet for survival which is really from Freud's perspective your death instinct saying "better not do anything or it could mean death for me", though the death is symbolic and not literal. So at this point there's no logic left to be had anyway, you're operating from a primitive awareness. It's the same for all types. Though as you pointed out, the types might handle it in different ways, but it will still be harder to tell what is really dominant as shadow functions become more active.


Yes, I've always bottled up my emotions since I have to keep myself under control if I want a positive outcome out of this situation. This has been going on for years, so there may indeed be more at work than just the type/functions.
It could indeed be instinct, which my sister seems to lack as she will go against him without second thought. I'm not willing to risk it.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> I usually just assume the person wants something from me. It takes a long time for me to start trusting a person, and until that point I will remain skeptical of them. For instance, if someone is holding a pamphlet and coming at me with a smile I just sigh knowing they are going to try to get me to do something.


I think my brother is Fi dom. This above quote sounds like him. I don't know if in my brothers case this comes from Fi or from inferior Te; his lack of confidence that he can know or look objectively at a "deal" or functionality of how "he might help someone" and make a decision without feeling pressured.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

the401 said:


> perfect example is : when you first meet a person do you have an instinct to judge them to be good or bad?
> 
> im not sure how an Ti does it but I'm guessing they would "think" if they are good or bad based on their analysis of that person. and Fi however immediately feels if the the person is good or bad the moment they meet.
> 
> so which one relates to you more?


I don't judge anything "good" or "bad", as that are not terms I use. I see people as either "problematic" or "unproblematic". I scan if the person might be a threat to me. If so, I'll tread more carefully around them.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ninjaws said:


> Good suggestion. Could you give an example of a situation? I'm having trouble coming up with something that could be used for this purpose. Usually I'm fairly indifferent to things that are happening, as long as they don't affect me.


I wouldn't recommend trying to type yourself by putting yourself in a neutral situation to test how you respond. What you're looking for is your natural tendency, not your specific thoughts or behaviors in one or a few instances. Introspection based on observations across time may be more reliable.

From Jung:


> Sensation establishes what is actually present, thinking enables us to recognize its meaning, feeling tells us its value, and intuition points to possibilities as to whence it came and whither it is going in a given situation.


Is it your natural tendency to focus on the value of objects and situations? Good, bad, fun, nice, jerk, sad, hero, enemy, evil, wrong, funny, immature, pathetic, admirable, detestable, supportive, betrayal, etc. - these are all value-tinged words. None of them are neutral. Feeling types understand reality not as something neutral and impersonal but as having many shades of value.

Or do you repress this side of reality and view things in a more value-neutral way? Thinking focuses on understanding the meaning of reality, what things objectively are, how they fit together, and how they can be understood. If Feelers understand emotional, value-based relationships, Thinkers understand logical relationships.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> I don't judge anything "good" or "bad", as that are not terms I use. I see people as either "problematic" or "unproblematic". I scan if the person might be a threat to me. If so, I'll tread more carefully around them.


This statement - would be good to get an ENTJ's take on that - someone who strongly identifies with being ENTJ.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ninjaws said:


> I don't judge anything "good" or "bad", as that are not terms I use. I see people as either "problematic" or "unproblematic". I scan if the person might be a threat to me. If so, I'll tread more carefully around them.


Looks like you already have your answer, then. I'm the same way, as a dominant Thinker.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I don't judge anything "good" or "bad", as that are not terms I use. I see people as either "problematic" or "unproblematic". I scan if the person might be a threat to me. If so, I'll tread more carefully around them.


well i "good" or "bad: is just an general sense.

an Fi user that greatly values logic can view people as "problematic" or "unproblematic".


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

@Fried Eggz made a case for Ti/Fe. Can some of you give your opinions on this?

"
You're interested in group harmony (Fe), you're interested in a persons inner-workings (Ti-Fe) rather than objective facts about them (Te/Fi).

Here you talk like a Ti-dominant in need of Fe:
"When I'm really feeling comfortable I tend to lose my seriousness and become more playful. However, the moment I see one person I am not perfectly comfortable with and I become completely serious again."

You stated that you "want rules and regulations to make sense," which again, hints at Ti. It sounds to me that your logic is ruminating (Ti) rather than concerned with resources and statistical proof (Te).

You spoke about getting people angry when you debate with them, another hint at weak F. It's also common for Se users, because they're prone to being confrontational and impulsive.

Personally, I think you're an ISTP. There are many ISTPs who are indecisive and need to think before acting. Most of them call it a Ti-Ni loop, but personally, I think it's just a common ISTP trait.
"

All his points are valid, but I'd like to here it from an Ti/Fe perspective.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Silveresque said:


> I wouldn't recommend trying to type yourself by putting yourself in a neutral situation to test how you respond. What you're looking for is your natural tendency, not your specific thoughts or behaviors in one or a few instances. Introspection based on observations across time may be more reliable.
> 
> From Jung:
> 
> ...


I do however, use a lot of the words you named to describe things or people. "He seems to be a nice person" "That person over there is crying like a baby, how pathetic" "I hate that guy"

My mother said that I am extremely opinionated on everything around me. There is nothing that I don't have an opinion on (like the above).

However, people that are close to me (people I have to work with for instance) are possible threats, so I have a different approach around them. I focus completely on getting what I want, while staying on their good side.

Could you give your opinion on the comment above this one (with the Ti/Fe stuff). Since you are an ISTP I would like to know if you can relate to that.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Silveresque said:


> I wouldn't recommend trying to type yourself by putting yourself in a neutral situation to test how you respond. What you're looking for is your natural tendency, not your specific thoughts or behaviors in one or a few instances. Introspection based on observations across time may be more reliable.
> 
> From Jung:
> 
> ...


Can you give some concrete examples of value-neutral thoughts?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ninjaws said:


> I do however, use a lot of the words you named to describe things or people. "He seems to be a nice person" "That person over there is crying like a baby, how pathetic" "I hate that guy"
> 
> My mother said that I am extremely opinionated on everything around me. There is nothing that I don't have an opinion on (like the above).
> 
> ...


No, I can't relate to that. But it doesn't necessarily mean you're not a Thinking type. Some will be more judgmental and others will avoid making value judgments altogether.

I can't tell you what type you are, but I can try to give more information and examples of how I experience Thinking. You won't experience it in the same way, but there should be a similar essence.

A glass isn't half-full or half-empty for me, it contains exactly 273 mL of water. This is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is. 

_"That person over there is crying like a baby, how pathetic"_ - My response to this is to ignore the subjective/value-tinged side of it. No, that person is not crying "like a baby" and it's not "pathetic", it's just exactly what you see objectively happening (Sensing mixed in here). I might even go so far as to say those labels do not exist and are distortions of reality. If I ignore the value of it, I can go deeper into the meaning and logic of it. The person is crying because he's extremely angry because X and Y happened within the context of A, B, and C. Crying is a natural human response to strong emotion, so this makes sense. It does not always indicate sadness specifically, but may indicate any strong emotion including anger or joy. My focus is to understand what is happening and why, and I never judge whether any of it is good or bad or pathetic, etc. 

I almost never attempt to answer moral questions such as "Is it better to do X or Y?" To me, there is no "better". There is no "should". There is no "moral" or "immoral". There is only what actually objectively happens and how we feel about that. If someone feels that something is wrong, then that opinion exists as data: "X person feels Y about Z." My own opinions exist as data as well.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Pilot said:


> Can you give some concrete examples of value-neutral thoughts?


Already done before I even read your question, heh. See my above post.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Silveresque said:


> No, I can't relate to that. But it doesn't necessarily mean you're not a Thinking type. Some will be more judgmental and others will avoid making value judgments altogether.
> 
> I can't tell you what type you are, but I can try to give more information and examples of how I experience Thinking. You won't experience it in the same way, but there should be a similar essence.
> 
> ...


I relate to:

A glass isn't half-full or half-empty for me, it contains exactly 273 mL of water. This is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is.

And

I almost never attempt to answer moral questions such as "Is it better to do X or Y?" To me, there is no "better". There is no "should". There is no "moral" or "immoral". There is only what actually objectively happens and how we feel about that. If someone feels that something is wrong, then that opinion exists as data: "X person feels Y about Z." My own opinions exist as data as well.


With regards to the person, I have a tendency to just have an opinion on the matter and then move on without thinking about it further. My value judgement of that situation would mainly come from the fact that I find it disgraceful to show such weakness in public. My thought would be "Get a hold of yourself".


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

Silveresque said:


> Already done before I even read your question, heh. See my above post.


Maybe it's just me, but I can clearly see the P slant in your examples.

Just a hunch, but I would guess J types, even TJ types, are not so personally distanced from the way they process external info.

Not naturally, at least.


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## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

@Ninjaws,

I still honestly think you're Fi is not dominant...at all. You have a heap load of Te, much more than inferior. 
What you were feeling towards father dad was extremely Fi, though. My father is very much the same, and I've often felt like that in such situations.

One thing to be sure of, is that you're not a feeling dominant. There is no such way of this. In all honesty, I think your Fi might not be inferior, which is why I think INTJ may not be such a bad match for you. Why are you sure of ENTJ or ISFP only?

Also, another question is: When you first took the MBTI tests and whatnot, which of the 4 letters were you sure of? I remember I was positive on intuition, being an intuition dominant myself. However, I was completely lost when it came to thinking or feeling, because I have a well-developed tertiary Te. Sometimes my Te will overpower my Fi, and I get irritated when people are using their biased opinions when they should be thinking more objectively. I will also go into extreme Te mode when someone hurts my Fi. But, anyway, typically the letter you were originally sure of is your dominant function, because you know it so well. What was yours, if you had one?


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> which is why I think INTJ may not be such a bad match for you


Agree, I relate to a lot of your thought process with your Te and Fi use. It's very possible that you're an IxTJ

Join the club :laughing::laughing:


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

I would say that you don't want to type based on family interaction. The reason being that we act differently with our family than we do with other people. Maybe you could post another example, with someone who you could react how you normally would to without all of the family dynamics bullshit mucking it up?


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## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

selena87 said:


> Agree, I relate to a lot of your thought process with your Te and Fi use. It's very possible that you're an IxTJ
> 
> Join the club :laughing::laughing:


Wait, me? I'm an ENFP, positive on this (although I'm still open to criticism on my type because I'm an Ne-dom after all). But I thought I was an INTJ for a while because I relate a lot to how tertiary/auxiliary Te and Fi work, and I happen to get along with INTJs very well.

I still think Ninjaws is an INTJ, personally.

:laughing:


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> @Ninjaws,
> 
> I still honestly think you're Fi is not dominant...at all. You have a heap load of Te, much more than inferior.
> What you were feeling towards father dad was extremely Fi, though. My father is very much the same, and I've often felt like that in such situations.
> ...


On all the 4-letter tests I type INTJ. With the cognitive function tests it swings back and forth between a lot of types.
I'm not sure about anything at this point haha. It's just that people in the "What's my personality type?" section mainly suggested those two.

If only I knew which one was dominant, it would instantly narrow it down to two types. On cognitive function tests my highest function is usually Te though, followed by Ti, Ni, Si and Ne (in no particular order). Se is usually the lowest, with Fe and Fi being around the same amount. Then again, I take these testresults with a grain of salt (they change everytime I take the test).


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Wait, me? I'm an ENFP, positive on this (although I'm still open to criticism on my type because I'm an Ne-dom after all). But I thought I was an INTJ for a while because I relate a lot to how dominant/auxiliary Te and Fi work.
> 
> :laughing:


Nope, I mean the OP, the way he deals with his family situation and the way he usually posts

Not you ENFP :laughing: wish I was an ENFP though


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

The author (identified on the above link), I know has the respect of quite a few people into Jung, but I think Jung's definitions are simpler, and I think some of what she describes as the result of the inferior is kind of like splitting hairs to call it that; why not just part and parcel of Fi, rather than calling it a reaction of the inferior? 

The OP, already tells us of a pattern of behaving well to get a desired outcome, so why look at thread style as personality, but more as this same need to do things "right". INTJ's are obsessed with a right way but they believe in a universal or absolute right way that the Fi dom can never be sure about.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

selena87 said:


> From what I observed from real life friends, Fi doms have this complex with their inferior Te where they try hard to use it and prove to people that they are serious and logical.
> 
> Sometimes they get into this really serious state with me, and talk about social issues with such conviction in their voice. I'm amazed and honestly confused, because their points are kind of contradictory. But I'll be nice and listen to it all, then be confused all the way home, lol.
> 
> ...


you know what i used to think i was logical until the NT's proved me wrong. and that i value my own values over logic.

anyways i don't value logic or anything so i don't care if people call me illogical. thinking is simply not my thing. i prefer my own values and my loyalty and dedication to the ones i love.

imo Fi makes my world so much more colorful, easier to fall in love, and enjoy the beauty of nature, how ISFPs love animals and become musical artist not because we want to perfect the art but because deep down inside it's our way to express our feelings and we feel very good when we are doing it.



I'm just happy i can enjoy life having fun and doing all the fun things ISFP's love

no offense taken , i'm happy to give up my logic if that means i can have all the cute and colorful and warm traits of an ISFP.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

the401 said:


> you know what i used to think i was logical until the NT's proved me wrong. and that i value my own values over logic.
> 
> anyways i don't value logic or anything so i don't care if people call me illogical. thinking is simply not my thing. i prefer my own values and my loyalty and dedication to the ones i love.
> 
> ...


Seriously I like my ISFPs they're kind girls that invited me the loner into their group. But I wish they would be as happy with themselves as you lol.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Your family situation sounds a lot like mine, except it's my mum. I can understand the frustrations.



Now if you want to see a good example of ISFP and ENTJ watch the Spartacus series. The main character Spartacus is likely an ISFP (an Fi dom for sure). There are many examples where he does what he believes to be right regardless of the situation or others expectations.

The ENTJ(possible INTJ) Marcus Crassus comes into the show in the last season (War of the Damned). You should clearly notice how he is a strategist, especially the way he plays Spartacus, like in chess sacrificing a piece to force a move from your opponent. What is interesting is how his sense of right/wrong is external. He lives by example and holds everyone, including himself, to the same standard/laws. There are reasons why he enforces these laws (no he does no follow the rules because they are the rules, he follows them because he is living by example. Too achieve the utmost loyalty and respect from his soldiers he can not be playing by a different set of rules).

It is very interesting how for Spartacus the whole ordeal is personal and about him doing what he believes is truly right. On the other hand for Marcus it is not personal. It is just one stepping stone on his path. He actually respects Spartacus and what he was able to achieve, just Spartacus is the opposition and one side must lose. No hard feelings there.

I think this paints a good contrast between Fi>Te and Te>Fi. It can however be full on, very much like Game of Thrones (just a precaution).



A few questions 

Would you be more offended if someone attacked your logic/reasoning skills or if someone attacked your character/integrity?

Are you constantly aware of things that are agreeable/repulsive to you? Are you most of the time aware of your mood?

Are you often asking yourself “will this work?” or instead do you often ask yourself “ How will this affect me?” 

Do you often have to wait until something feels right before you begin, or do you do something because you have to regardless to how you feel?

Are you more likely to put aside what your are passionate about because it isn't practical, or follow your passion regardless of the practicality.
(an example would be to work in a job you didn't like but it paid very well, or to work in a job you loved even if the pay was minimum wage)

Do you preach for things to be efficient, especially when starting to get stressed?

What do you think your strengths are?

What do you think your weaknesses are?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> I would lean Fi Dom - ISFP, before INTJ, just don't see that here, but possibly ISTJ.
> 
> What I wonder is if there is ego defensiveness or need to save face, or problem with authority that is about something other than type. Not like you have any bad behavior on this thread, but you seem to worry about it quite a bit. INTJ's usually complain more about a lack of challenge or integrity to be found, and the mindlessness out in the world.
> 
> I've read on forums and even an author (self proclaimed as INFP ) Fi doms, who feel like getting what they want or need from life involves some form of fakeness or trickery.


I only go against authority if it tries to force me into a role I don't want to be in. For example, last year I had an introduction week at the start of college. We went to the city and were told we had to wear shirts with all kinds of advertisements on them. I plainly refused, since I'm not a walking billboard.

I do change my posture and look on my face in public to appear more self-confident. As you might imagine, it's really tiring to do this for a long time, so at the end of the day I'm usually exhausted.

I am pretty good at subtle manipulation, in stark contract to my sister who takes the 'takeover' approach. I'll try to steer something my way by dropping hints here and there. She just pushes it into the direction she wants it to go.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> If anything, he is actually doing the opposite of that, trying to prove that he is friendly and not harsh with all the excessive use of emoticons and excessive pressing of the like button. :laughing:


Shhh, they musn't know. :th_blush:


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> A few questions


*Would you be more offended if someone attacked your logic/reasoning skills or if someone attacked your character/integrity?*
Hmm, hard one. If they attack my logical reasoning I would feel uncertain of myself and I'll usually take an openminded stance in that I'll listen to everything they have to say and then give my thoughts on whether or not it makes sense.

If someone attacks me directly I would probably just be dumbfounded, searching for a reason as to why they would do such a thing. If they do it in an argument, I'll just call them out on there nonsense. I am not a fan of conflict though, so when the tension rises with these things I would prefer to just stop the argument there.

*Are you constantly aware of things that are agreeable/repulsive to you? Are you most of the time aware of your mood?*
Yes. If I see a person doing I don't approve of I'll instantly take a hostile stance (in my mind, not visibly). My mood is strange in that music plays in my head which gives me a certain mood. Without the music I feel empty, so I use that to give my inside some colour, so to speak. The only thing I feel without music is irritation/anger/fear.

*Are you often asking yourself “will this work?” or instead do you often ask yourself “ How will this affect me?” *
Both, actually. When a person is doing something stupid, I think "Is there a chance that I'll be affected by what he is doing?". If not, then I don't really care. If I am at risk of being drawn into it, I'll act in a way to protect myself.

"Will this work" is the question that I ask when people are brainstorming. Sure, you can come up with all kinds of fantastical ideas (I love that as well), but if there is no way to make it real, there is no real point to it. For instance, I wanted to make a giant lego robot a few weeks ago (never went through with it, but that's beside the point). I had some ideas as to what the design would be like, but my main focus was on the leg joints. It was going to be immense so I had to design something that would remain standing with a massive weight on it. The standard balljoint will never remain standing, but multiple balljoints will make movement difficult.

*Do you often have to wait until something feels right before you begin, or do you do something because you have to regardless to how you feel?*
I often have to force myself to get started on things I don't want to do. I generally jump from topic to when I'm on the internet. For instance, yersterday I suddenly became interested in ants. I got really pumped and started reading about all the species there were. And then suddenly "Meh, nevermind". DONE. xD
The thing is, if I allow this to happen constantly I'll never get the work done, which means I'll never get into college. Even when I get my attention back on track, it's usually only a few minutes before I get really tense and have to do something else again.

*Are you more likely to put aside what your are passionate about because it isn't practical, or follow your passion regardless of the practicality.
(an example would be to work in a job you didn't like but it paid very well, or to work in a job you loved even if the pay was minimum wage)*
I kinda bounce back and forth on this. I was a great fan of paleontology (fcking love dinosaurs ) and ancient history. But the chance of getting a job was minimal so I had to say no to them. If I get a wellpaying job I can then do those things as hobbies anyways, but I don't want to be poor.

*Do you preach for things to be efficient, especially when starting to get stressed?*
When I get stressed I want the problem to go away as quickly as possible, since the stress makes me extremely uncomfortable. I'll often try to retreat out of those situations.

*What do you think your strengths are?*
Planning. I'm insanely good at making plans for over 10 years into the future. I have a problem with getting stuff done, but I do know exactly what I have to do to reach my goals.

*What do you think your weaknesses are?*
My incredibly poor concentration when it comes to things I don't find interesting. Math is giving me a serious headache since I find it ridiculously boring yet have to do it for my entry exam.


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## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

My cousin, a cool guy, considers himself an ENTJ. Quick to express his emotional state and someone not knowing him as well as I do could mistake him for another type. The thing is he really expresses himself well with logic(Te) but gets irritated quickly, he can change his mood fast and doesnt dwell on the past.
He could easily be mistaken for an ISFP (his mother is ISFP) but if you compare him to one he has nothing in common in real life.
His favourite quote he often tells is: "why use words to complicate things, make your point as simple and short as possible"

So my advice would be to stick with ENTJ you seem to use Ni, Fi so just focus on Te and you will grow as a person


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

A disclaimer: I am no expert, I do not know you, Do not take what I say as truth. It is merely me applying my understanding to my interpretation of your answers. I do hope they can give you some insight 





Ninjaws said:


> *Would you be more offended if someone attacked your logic/reasoning skills or if someone attacked your character/integrity?*
> Hmm, hard one. If they attack my logical reasoning I would feel uncertain of myself and I'll usually take an openminded stance in that I'll listen to everything they have to say and then give my thoughts on whether or not it makes sense.
> 
> If someone attacks me directly I would probably just be dumbfounded, searching for a reason as to why they would do such a thing. If they do it in an argument, I'll just call them out on there nonsense. I am not a fan of conflict though, so when the tension rises with these things I would prefer to just stop the argument there.


To me it does not sound like you get offended either way.
What is likely to offend you?




> *Are you constantly aware of things that are agreeable/repulsive to you? Are you most of the time aware of your mood?*
> Yes. If I see a person doing I don't approve of I'll instantly take a hostile stance (in my mind, not visibly). My mood is strange in that music plays in my head which gives me a certain mood. Without the music I feel empty, so I use that to give my inside some colour, so to speak. The only thing I feel without music is irritation/anger/fear.


I think this may suggest Fi>Te. I'm thinking a strong Te user won't take a hostile stance as they put less weight on what they consider agreeable/repulsed. I think they would be more concerned about how that person measures up to external standards or look at the facts about the person to determine how useful they are. I think even if that person does something immoral I think the strong Te user wouldn't care, but would care about the persons competency.

I find this interesting as I don't have music playing in my head. I often hear my own voice or see images. I tend to feel my feelings, and I'm happy with feeling neutral.
I did come across something suggesting thinkers prefer feeling neutral as they are uncomfortable with their feelings, where as feelers want to feel as that sense of neutrality feels cold/empty, kinda like a fear of not feeling, could be another indicator of Fi>Te. 





> *Are you often asking yourself “will this work?” or instead do you often ask yourself “ How will this affect me?” *
> Both, actually. When a person is doing something stupid, I think "Is there a chance that I'll be affected by what he is doing?". If not, then I don't really care. If I am at risk of being drawn into it, I'll act in a way to protect myself.
> 
> "Will this work" is the question that I ask when people are brainstorming. Sure, you can come up with all kinds of fantastical ideas (I love that as well), but if there is no way to make it real, there is no real point to it. For instance, I wanted to make a giant lego robot a few weeks ago (never went through with it, but that's beside the point). I had some ideas as to what the design would be like, but my main focus was on the leg joints. It was going to be immense so I had to design something that would remain standing with a massive weight on it. The standard balljoint will never remain standing, but multiple balljoints will make movement difficult.


Perhaps this is just confirming Fi and Te.

(If I began that project I would question why I need legs in the first place for my robot, I like to solve problems by completely removing the problem all together if I can. Laziness on my part, eh I call it efficiency )




> *Do you often have to wait until something feels right before you begin, or do you do something because you have to regardless to how you feel?*
> I often have to force myself to get started on things I don't want to do. I generally jump from topic to when I'm on the internet. For instance, yersterday I suddenly became interested in ants. I got really pumped and started reading about all the species there were. And then suddenly "Meh, nevermind". DONE. xD
> The thing is, if I allow this to happen constantly I'll never get the work done, which means I'll never get into college. Even when I get my attention back on track, it's usually only a few minutes before I get really tense and have to do something else again.


Now I'm thinking Fi>Te here. If Te/Ni envisions going to college, once the path is clear they will take the steps necessary to meet this goal. It is a process of completing actions that bring them closer to the goal and avoid actions that take them off the path. Even if they don't like what they are currently doing they will continue doing it if it is in the direction of it's goal.

Fi Dom does not like doing something unless it's wants/desires/wishes line up with what it is doing. It wants to follow it's passion (sounds like in you case inspiration about ants ) even if it is not quite in the direction of a goal it may have. Perhaps it's more follow what their interests are and explore the journey this takes them on. Fi hates to go against what it is really feeling inside, It wants to want to do it, and really will drag it's feet if it is forced to do something it does like.

In a classroom setting the strong Fi user is likely to question is it worth their time, are they really learning something here or just ticking boxes, is it beneficial to them, will it help them. If no, then there is no point continuing and wasting their time and searches for something they want to do. I think a strong Te user is likely to do the tasks set, even if they have no interest and are not learning, because it needs to tick the boxes to get to where it's going.
(I could be wrong)





> *Are you more likely to put aside what your are passionate about because it isn't practical, or follow your passion regardless of the practicality.
> (an example would be to work in a job you didn't like but it paid very well, or to work in a job you loved even if the pay was minimum wage)*
> I kinda bounce back and forth on this. I was a great fan of paleontology (fcking love dinosaurs ) and ancient history. But the chance of getting a job was minimal so I had to say no to them. If I get a wellpaying job I can then do those things as hobbies anyways, but I don't want to be poor.


To me this suggests Te>Fi. Following what is practical over something that you really want.

(That was my reasoning as well (dinosaurs, among other things, were my childhood haha) and the reason why I'm studying to be an engineer. Applied physics seems practical and well sort after in the workforce.)






> *Do you preach for things to be efficient, especially when starting to get stressed?*
> When I get stressed I want the problem to go away as quickly as possible, since the stress makes me extremely uncomfortable. I'll often try to retreat out of those situations.


Te>Fi

What I have noticed with strong Fi users, as they become stressed they become more critical and efficiency become more important. An ENFP I know when ready to leave the house becomes concerned with the state of the house, ensuring things are cleaned up and put in their place because it is efficient...and they're now late...
(though this is only an observation)

In general strong Te users when stressed will get more emotional, be affected more by others criticism and start to feel unappreciated. They will start to place more attention on how they feel.

I get a sense here that you become concerned with how the situation makes you feel, this is uncomfortable and want to retreat. I think this may suggest Fi is less developed because Fi users are constantly exploring themselves and their feelings. I don't think they would feel so uncomfortable in the feelings realm. Just my thoughts.




> *What do you think your strengths are?*
> Planning. I'm insanely good at making plans for over 10 into the future. I have a problem with getting stuff done, but I do know exactly what I have to do to reach my goals.


May indicate a good use of Te.
Te is renowned for knowing the steps to take to complete a task.





> *What do you think your weaknesses are?*
> My incredibly poor concentration when it comes to things I don't find interesting. Math is giving me a serious headache since I find it ridiculously boring yet have to do it for my entry exam.


This to me seems like a perceive trait, so an xxxP type (But I could be wrong). Hmm, I may have to get back to you on this one if this can be put down to a personality trait or if it's just a human boredom trait.




Now I'm not getting any clear preference.
Do you often struggle with identifying in general if you are a thinker or feeler?
If yes perhaps this indicates thinking and feeling are your middle functions.

Do you identify strongly with intuition?
If so have you considered INTJ and ENFP? both have Te/Fi in the middle.

Also clarify if I have misinterpreted any of your questions


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> A disclaimer: I am no expert, I do not know you, Do not take what I say as truth. It is merely me applying my understanding to my interpretation of your answers. I do hope they can give you some insight



*What is likely to offend you?*
I don't get offended quickly, but I do get depressed when I'm left out of something. Seeing others have fun and not being able to join makes me quite sad.
Ofcourse I would get mad if someone started insulting me, and if that happens my thoughts are focussed on how I can destroy the threat.


*(If I began that project I would question why I need legs in the first place for my robot, I like to solve problems by completely removing the problem all together if I can. Laziness on my part, eh I call it efficiency )*
Well, I was planning on making one with four legs and a 'cockpit' in the middle, where I can put a Bionicle as a driver, so to speak. 


*Now I'm thinking Fi>Te here. If Te/Ni envisions going to college, once the path is clear they will take the steps necessary to meet this goal. It is a process of completing actions that bring them closer to the goal and avoid actions that take them off the path. Even if they don't like what they are currently doing they will continue doing it if it is in the direction of it's goal.*
My path and goal are clear, but that doesn't make getting there any easier.


*Fi Dom does not like doing something unless it's wants/desires/wishes line up with what it is doing. It wants to follow it's passion (sounds like in you case inspiration about ants ) even if it is not quite in the direction of a goal it may have. Perhaps it's more follow what their interests are and explore the journey this takes them on. Fi hates to go against what it is really feeling inside, It wants to want to do it, and really will drag it's feet if it is forced to do something it does like.*
That's pretty much what made high school hell. So many things I know I have to do while I don't want to do them.


*In a classroom setting the strong Fi user is likely to question is it worth their time, are they really learning something here or just ticking boxes, is it beneficial to them, will it help them. If no, then there is no point continuing and wasting their time and searches for something they want to do.*
Jup. Everyday I said to myself "What a waste of my time". Everytime I had to make homework the words "Waste of time" just kept floating through my head.


*What I have noticed with strong Fi users, as they become stressed they become more critical and efficiency become more important.*
Well, when I notice time is being wasted to the point that I won't be able to finish my work in time, I get annoyed and will be like "Okay enough! Time to get to work. No more wasting time." I tend to get more tense and aggrevated with others. My usually laid back attitude changes into dictatorship where I keep an eye on everyone's progress.


*In general strong Te users when stressed will get more emotional, be affected more by others criticism and start to feel unappreciated. They will start to place more attention on how they feel.*
I get angry and agitated, so in a way, yes more emotional.


*Do you often struggle with identifying in general if you are a thinker or feeler?*
The thing is, I can relate to all types in a certain way. My "look at it from all sides" attitude does not serve me well in this situation.


*Do you identify strongly with intuition?*
I'm extremely imaginative and am able to make light of serious situations by looking at it from a different perspective.
I'm not sure if this exclusive to intuition though.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> I only go against authority if it tries to force me into a role I don't want to be in. For example, last year I had an introduction week at the start of college. We went to the city and were told we had to wear shirts with all kinds of advertisements on them. I plainly refused, since I'm not a walking billboard.
> 
> I do change my posture and look on my face in public to appear more self-confident. As you might imagine, it's really tiring to do this for a long time, so at the end of the day I'm usually exhausted.
> 
> I am pretty good at subtle manipulation, in stark contract to my sister who takes the 'takeover' approach. I'll try to steer something my way by dropping hints here and there. She just pushes it into the direction she wants it to go.


I just mean dealing with someone who has leverage on you in some way comes out as a common theme, the only thread I see running through the thread. Yes, subtle manipulation, in my opinion, from what I've seen in discussions on the forum - this is Fi.
It's a choice, it works I guess for some people. I can tell you it doesn't work on me and it irks me enough in real life that I might sever ties at all costs in preference to dealing with someone who uses what I call posturing, subtle manipulation. To me this makes an energy sapping elaborate, project out of non-issues, and stands in the way of being constructive, and honest. It breeds lying. Not lying might be the only holy grail of morality for an ENTP.

But that being said, it is a style, you would likely see me as a takeover type closer to how your sister is. Although, I simply see things as choices, and I don't get worked up, other than occasionally some people, I have to minimize interaction with. These people are people who want to play manipulative games with me. They seem to not want anything but to be blameless and to feel on top, without ever risking, or thinking, without wanting anything specific. The whole game is to get other people to bow down or do the dirty work, and to always be able to play the blame card. They want to do heads I win tails you loose on me - and I walk away.

I'm not saying this to pick on you, and I suppose I could be wrong about the function attached to this, but I don't think so. The way I see it, Fi is very focused on blame and worth as if it is intrinsic and unchangeable, being hard on one's self, Fi's are inconsolable if they fall short of what the believe they "should" be or how they need to see themselves. I think my brother is INFP, and this doesn't mean we don't speak or don't get along, but sometimes he is a morbid pain, downer, energy sucker. I use techniques to deal with him, according to knowing how he is. When he is in a silly mood, he is a treat, with being goofy and spontaneous, and having weird funny observations.
--------------------

"My path and goal are clear, but that doesn't make getting there any easier".
^ this quoted from above post - is puzzling to me, about school? Are you on a path leading to gloom and doom? Do you simply hate what the day to day doing is made up of? Do you second guess yourself and get discouraged ..... or what?


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> *Do you often struggle with identifying in general if you are a thinker or feeler?*
> The thing is, I can relate to all types in a certain way. My "look at it from all sides" attitude does not serve me well in this situation.
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, I would say it can't possibly be more Ni than that. Definitely a Ni dom/aux. The following is a description of Ni:



> Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of exercise!


Again, I relate to the majority of the questions you answered. But I'm not sure whether that means you're an ENTJ or INTJ because I never met ENTJs in real life.

Source: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...iled-descriptions-each-function-attitude.html


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@selena87 So is it a cliche to think Ni's have to like things like physics or chemistry?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> @selena87 So is it a cliche to think Ni's have to like things like physics or chemistry?


I know for a fact that I don't like either of those. All the time you have to spend on getting an outcome out of difficult questions. I find it extremely uninteresting.


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

@Old Intern

I always associated the "subtle manipulation" tactic with Fe. The only people I know who use it are Fe users. Also, they tend to express pride over their ability to do it.

Generally speaking, most Fi users I know (and see on here) favor the "takeover" style of direct confrontation regarding emotions. They're less concerned with whether or not they keep the harmony while getting what they want emotionally.

Granted, all of this is observational. There's no direct correlation poll or any hard evidence to support it besides my own anecdotal experiences.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> @selena87 So is it a cliche to think Ni's have to like things like physics or chemistry?


I love physics but hate chemistry, and yes I do think it is a cliche, some Ni users are utterly uninterested in Science. :laughing:


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> Hmm, I would say it can't possibly be more Ni than that. Definitely a Ni dom/aux. The following is a description of Ni:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*I'll bolden the things I relate to with in every function*


Now, on to the functional attitudes...first, the extroverted Perception (Pe) attitudes. These are dominant for ExxP types, secondary for IxxP, tertiary for ExxJ and inferior for IxxJ:

Ne, or extroverted iNtuition, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns. Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other, more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.

As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g. Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to put the pieces together and get it.


Se, or extroverted Sensing, is dominant for ESxP, secondary for ISxP, tertiary for ENxJ and inferior for INxJ. It is the attitude that what is directly apparent in our immediate physical surroundings is the most important thing to go by. Se leads you to follow your gut instincts, pay very close attention to what's going on around you, and respond to things in the moment in whatever way will make the strongest and most immediate guttural, sensory impact on others. Se users are so present-focused that they're often on the cutting edge of new trends because they place so much emphasis on what is current and new. *They like to learn things via a hands-on, figure-it-out-by-experimenting-as-you-go, direct experiential approach (in this way they are similar to Ne) but they are more focused on what is immediately tangible than on what their surroundings might be changed into.* They usually pay a lot of attention to their physical appearance and *are very good with reading body language and using it to immediately size up a person or a situation and respond instinctively.* They can be quite impulsive and prone to overindulgence in sensory pleasures, but they also know how to work a crowd and they tend to make themselves into reflections of current popular trends--whatever will make an impact.

Se is the opposite of Ni because it intentionally focuses on the literal surface meaning of exactly what is going on right in front of you right now, whereas Ni tries to ignore that and see the hidden meaning in what is not directly apparent.

---------------------------

Next, the introverted Perception (Pi) attitudes. These are dominant for IxxJ types, secondary for ExxJ, tertiary for IxxP and inferior for ExxP:

Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, *Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of exercise!* Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. *Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on*...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

*Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others.*

*As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does.* To Ni, I get the significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer, but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

For another example, Isaac Newton (INTJ) invented calculus and didn't bother telling anyone about it for 20 years. Ne would have been out showing the idea to others and changing it based on their reactions--but not Ni!

As a result Ne is typically much better at putting its abstract ideas into terms that others will understand than Ni.

On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible.


Si, or introverted Sensing, is dominant for ISxJ, secondary for ESxJ, tertiary for INxP and inferior for ENxP. It's related to Se in that it deals with sensory experience, but rather than constantly scan for everything about what's going on now, it relies on internalizing those experiences into an extremely detailed internal map of highly vivid *memories* of those past sensory experiences. This dependence on reliving past experience and using it as a guide for the present leads to an extremely good memory for detail, and a general attitude that going with what we know for sure from having experienced it before is usually best.

Si is the opposite of Ne because rather than relate new information to some larger external, constantly changing pattern, it tries to relate all new information to something it already knows, some sensory data that it's absorbed from its past experiences. This leads to the classic Ne vs. Si battle: Ne wants to try something new just for the sake of doing something different and finding something interesting; Si wants to stick to what we've done before because its vivid memories of direct experience allow us to relate the new information to that past information we've already absorbed.

It's a common misconception that Si users are traditionalists on principle. In my experience, many older Si users (xSxJ types have Si as dom/secondary) are traditionalists because the only source of information they had was their parents and the traditions they were raised with, but these days many younger SJs are much less traditionalist in nature because information is so much more freely available than it was just a few generations ago. Si is not into tradition just for the sake of tradition; it just likes to relate new information to something it already knows. Rules and traditions can be a convenient way to do this, but it's a mistake to believe that Si always leads to traditionalism for its own sake.

Si also does some really cool stuff like perfect pitch...I have one ISFJ friend (Si dominant) who can tap into his past sensations of what a particular note sounded like and use it to identify some note he hears now as a G#. That's amazing to me...as an Ne dom I only understand notes in terms of their relationship to other notes in a larger pattern; Josh just taps right into his detailed sensory memory and can identify the note by remembering what it sounded like before, on its own.

Si doms like to collect objects and facts that evoke pleasurable memories from the past. An Si who's into history will collect books, photos, stamps, etc...an Si who's into music will collect instruments, sheet music, photos of concerts, and so on. Many Si types love scrapbooking because looking back at those old photos evokes those powerful, highly detailed sensory experiences from the past.

On a more morbid note, Dexter (from the TV series "Dexter") is probably ISTJ. He collects blood slides because they evoke the detailed memories of his most enjoyable murder experiences from the past. =/

-----------------------------

Next, the extroverted Judgment (Je) attitudes. These are dominant for ExxJ types, secondary for IxxJ, tertiary for ExxP and inferior for IxxP:

Te, or extroverted Thinking, is dominant for ExTJ, secondary for IxTJ, tertiary for ExFP and inferior for IxFP.

It's an attitude that encourages an external, objective standard when dealing with logic, impersonal facts and ideas. Te, when arguing, will tend to cite appeals to authority and other widely accepted, externally focused evidence; i.e., citing books or prominent authors/studies, or any widely accepted consensus among the external world of people who study the topic in question. "The experts all agree that this is the case" is a very Te-oriented argument, because it relies on external standards and context for its evaluation of logical decisions.

For this reason Te people will usually insist on seeing quantifiable, repeatedly demonstrable, empirical evidence before accepting anything. If you can't put it in a test tube, measure it and repeat these results any time for all to see, it's not valid. The scientific method is extremely Te-oriented. From the Te perspective, there is no such thing as logic without this sort of externalized validity, because impersonal ideas are to be shared and agreed upon by large groups instead of individuals (the same way Fe treats ethics) and determined by objective consensus. Te users tend to find Ti selfish and unyielding in its insistence on fitting things into its own personal logical framework before accepting them, rather than taking widely accepted external evidence or consensus seriously.

Strong Te users are efficiency experts. They are typically very good at translating a theoretical idea into a fluid, external process that gets effective, measurable results that can be repeated and verified on schedule. They usually do very well in management positions that allow them to focus on process over theory in order to maximize efficiency and bring about the desired goal while expending the smallest possible amount of resources (especially time.)


Fe, or extroverted Feeling is dominant for ExFJ, secondary for IxFJ, tertiary for ExTP and inferior for IxTP. It is an attitude that encourages adherence to the ethics of the cultural/social/familial groups we feel emotionally connected to. Fe leads you to derive your moral viewpoints from some sort of externalized consensus. This doesn't mean you automatically fall in line with whatever moral viewpoints happen to surround you, just that (unlike the accompanying Ti view on logic as something you don't need external input to understand) you don't see how ethics can be decided reasonably without some sort of external context. (Fe views ethics as dependent upon collective consensus in the same way Te views logic/impersonal ideas.)

Fe leads people to adjust, hide or set aside entirely their own emotions in favor of fitting the emotional needs of the broader groups that are important to them. This leads to a certain respect for the common consensus among those important groups regarding interpersonal behavior and treatment of others. If you were to criticize someone's behavior from an Fe standpoint, it would be from the standpoint of, "Your behavior is inconsistent with the group's standards--most people would consider it wrong or inappropriate." Fe appeals to the collective morality of the whole; the fact that "most people would agree" serves as externally objective evidence to support Fe's moral standpoints.

People with strong Fe are typically good at saying just the right thing that fits in with the moral expectations of the audience. For this reason Fe tends to make great politicans because strong Fe users often make outstanding, charismatic public speakers who can play off the emotions of others to rally groups toward the desired cause. They are excellent at organizing, leading and delegating tasks to others with an interpersonal style that gets the job done while still appearing socially appropriate and respecting the emotional needs of others (so long as those needs are reasonable within the group's objective framework of ethics.) They understand how to perform the social/cultural responsibilities expected of them and they expect others to do the same, and if you're not fulfilling these responsibilities they're very good at appealing to the crowd to deliberately make you look like an asshole in front of everyone. ("Look everyone, this guy doesn't fit with our collective moral ideals!")

Fe considers it paramount to show overt displays of loyalty to the people in the groups it feels connected to, which includes helping out friends/family whenever possible and receiving similar displays of loyalty in return. (If these displays are not reciprocated Fe may take this as a sign that the other person is not loyal.) Fe tends to see Fi users as selfish for refusing to adapt their feelings to the feelings of others in service of the good of the larger group, and for ignoring objective standards on ethics in favor of purely personal ones.

The whole idea behind Ms. Manners is very Fe--Fi would wonder why anyone cares about any external consensus on ethics, because to Fi ethics are purely subjective. Fe is concerned with adjusting to the ethical standards as established objectively by the groups it feels are important.

-------------------------

And finally, the introverted Judgment (Ji) attitudes. These are dominant for IxxP types, secondary for ExxP, tertiary for IxxJ and inferior for ExxJ:

Ti, or introverted Thinking, is dominant for IxTP, secondary for ExTP, tertiary for IxFJ and inferior for ExFJ.

*It's an attitude that encourages subjective logical decision-making based on our personal and directly experiential ideas of what fits into an impersonal logic framework and what doesn't. When it comes to logic/impersonal ideas, Ti reasons, external consensus can go to hell because it might very well be wrong, no matter how many people believe it or how many experts claim to know the truth. Ti seeks truth for its own sake; it wants to understand the relationships that force frameworks of information to fit together into cohesive wholes. Ti is focused on the blueprint, the design, the idea--while Te is focused on the application of that idea into an objectively measurable process. Externally measurable application is not nearly as important to Ti as internal structural integrity and logical consistency with itself.*

Ti appreciates structural symmetry, balance, and the beauty of symmetrical models that elegantly explain and organize real world phenomena (perceived by Ne or Se) into neatly arranged categories. Ti people are usually very good with pure logic in a vacuum, as Ti simply "knows" inherently what is logical and what is not, and will defend this sense of logic to the death just to prove a point. *Te people, on the other hand, are more concerned with what tangible USE can come from an argument--which is often none. This is why INTPs will argue hypotheticals all day but INTJs will rarely bother trying to convince you. For the INTJ, Te simply doesn't see what useful goal would be served by trying to change your opinion.*

Ti: What logical relationships necessitate this system working the way it does, and how can I make them make sense to me?

Te: What externally verifiable, quantifiable evidence can we show that this is logical, and what tangible goal can be served by spending our time on it?

Another good example is music theory...when I learned chord theory I naturally wanted to learn the rules of how chords fit together so that I'd understand the entire system holistically and could theoretically figure out any chord. Ti likes to figure out entire systems just for the sake of getting a glimpse of complete truth ("I want to play guitar, so I will learn the system of rules for how chords are built so I understand the whole thing at once"), whereas Te is much more goal-oriented and always wants to know how this system can be applied to something externally useful or used to accomplish our predetermined goals...so Te would be more inclined to first figure out what the goal is ("What do I plan to use my guitar playing for?") and then learn only what's necessary to complete that goal. ("I want to learn 'Freebird', so I will learn the chords and techniques necessary to play that song.")

*Te takes a step by step, sequential and linear approach based on which steps are needed to complete its goals*, while Ti tries to understand the entire system as one big unit simply because it's interesting and stimulating.

I borrowed the following baseball analogy from Lenore Thomson, because it works so well:

So let's say you're playing baseball. Te would tell us that if the runner doesn't reach the base before the ball gets there, he's out--period. That's objectively verifiable and can be shown logically, through external empirical evidence/consensus of experts that it is always the case, and it can be quantified and measured precisely without any personal emotions getting involved. (You can see why so many TJs are research scientists, especially NTJs.)

But Te won't do us any good when we're the runner trying to decide whether to steal 2nd base or wait for another hit. The situational logic in this case is subjective Ti because it requires us to reason out what makes sense at the moment according to our direct experience--the logic at play here cannot be precisely quantified in an externally verifiable manner.


Fi, or introverted Feeling, is dominant for IxFP, secondary for ExFP, tertiary for IxTJ and inferior for ExTJ. Unlike Fe, Fi leads you to draw ethics purely from an internal, subjective source and finds Fe's collective approach to morality shallow and fake. Since ethics are purely a personal ideal in Fi's view, all personal feelings are sacred and allowing any outside views to affect them is patently unethical. Fi treats ethics in the same way Ti treats logic, in that it's something that requires no external context to understand and that should not be influenced or changed by any outside forces.

The ability to express one's personal feelings and inner self freely and maintain a strong sense of personal uniqueness and individuality is of utmost importance to Fi. (It's also important to Ti, but for different reasons and in different contexts.) I have found that many Fi users dislike typology in general because they feel that "putting people into boxes" suppresses their sense of personal identity, and that people are too unique to be categorized so easily.

*Fi people are typically very good at picking up emotional vibes in the tone of voice and word choice of others. They often know what you're feeling even better than you do because they're aware of the subtle effects that different emotional states have on our behaviors and can pick up cues about how you're feeling that you didn't even intend to give off. For this reason strong Fi users are profoundly empathetic and tend to understand and identify with basic human needs on a profound level. If you were to criticize someone's behavior from an Fi standpoint, it would be in the form of, "What you are doing is hurting my feelings/violating my ethics/preventing me from fulfilling my basic human needs." Strong Fi users often feel a certain connection to the beauty of nature, animals, and life itself, simply "knowing" deep inside themselves that life is sacred and all individuals possess inherent value.*

*A mature Fi user is extremely in tune with the emotional needs of others and very supportive of and responsive to them.* An immature Fi user is overly preoccupied with his own emotional needs and will act passive aggressively toward people who don't bend over backwards to cater to how he feels. Note that both Fe and Fi users often feel a strong sense of moral obligation to their loved ones; the difference is simply the source of this obligation. If it comes from an external/objective cultural standard, it's probably Fe--if it comes from a personal sense of moral responsibility that deliberately blocks out external influence, it's probably Fi.

Fi doms are ethical perfectionists in the same way Ti doms are logical perfectionists. They seek a sense of internal balance and harmony with their surroundings that feels right in their own individual way. Note that introverted judgment (Ti/Fi) seeks depth and specificity while extroverted judgment (Te/Fe) seeks broad applicability. Ti wants to define exactly what is logically correct under an extremely specific set of circumstances that may never happen in the real world, while Te seeks widely applicable objective consensus that can apply in many different situations. Fi seeks to determine precisely what the user feels is morally right regardless of external application, while Fe seeks widely applicable, generalized ethical rules that can serve to govern entire groups. Ti/Fe = I think/We feel; Fi/Te = I feel/We think.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Pilot said:


> @_Old Intern_
> 
> I always associated the "subtle manipulation" tactic with Fe. The only people I know who use it are Fe users. Also, they tend to express pride over their ability to do it.
> 
> ...


I think Fe can go two ways. Fe dom, yes they use shaming tactics because they believe everybody is desperate to be deemed "normal" and things like that. But extroverted functions are about taking in and comprehending the essence of the object with a focus on the object. I'm not saying altruism, but they gather information about the social group in the moment. They want to gauge how to go with the flow to have a wider circle of connections and be part of the group. They manipulate in packs, group cohesion. This is not an I win you loose kind of "strategy". Example, when I make a sales call I am aware of body language and everything, but this is a gauge of if we are connecting as in on the same page.

^this is different than someone trying to win or be safe. My default setting is I am safe, context shows if I am understood, and clues about what matters to the"others" - just information, about choices, not about threat, no threat just choices. We make a deal or not, but it has to work for all parties - deal or no deal is not win or loose and does not strike at my worth or power as a person. Something is a fit or not a fit. I don't have to do manipulations because I can use reasons(Ti), plus reasonable consideration for human nature and context of the situation (Fe).

The OP mentions a choice that may not seem like a choice because one party has all the leverage, but it is still a trade off. If I know I have made this trade off, keeping my mouth shut sometimes is not seen as a violation of my true self or power, just a choice that was already made. The rightness or whatever of "others" behavior is not my responsibility, only the deals I have made.

So I could be sad about someone's behavior, but Fe would say what am I dealing with in the other? is this modifiable from the perspective of what they care about? If I see no answer, I accept it (or not, meaning let it go or walk away). Fi would be angry, like you said - confrontational because they believe in absolutes, shoulds.
----------------
Well, thank button not available above yet so thanks twice.
But I have one disagreement. Fi's may know what someone else feels but they can also be the most oblivious because they have no idea how much their own internal standards are not yours! So they empathize according to how they would feel if they were you. Some may be more in tune with physical cues but this is usually self protective? - rather than open and seeing, hearing the true other.
--------------
And while Ti does love thinking as it's own end; the engagement with how something works as a whole system scratches an itch for us, learning tickles us - this doesn't mean we are incapeable of or disinterested in goals. For Ti, goals are facilitation for more of thinking growth and exploration - opportunities. Facilitation includes speed and resources.

For Te thinking is a means to an end, speed and volume of resources are not the facilitation they are the drive, the end product period. So, your guitar analogy could just be Te in a support role to values and self expression pulled out of you from Fi.
---------------
One last thing, what you highlight of Ni, makes it sound more personal than what I see in INTJ's or NI doms in general. The way I see it, my Ti is like Ni that makes noise in my head. Ni picks up a sense of universal truth, laws of nature - this is why your lack of being drawn to something like physics, even if not good at it, seems like NI thing to be drawn to that.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> "My path and goal are clear, but that doesn't make getting there any easier".
> ^ this quoted from above post - is puzzling to me, about school? Are you on a path leading to gloom and doom? Do you simply hate what the day to day doing is made up of? Do you second guess yourself and get discouraged ..... or what?[/COLOR]


My goal is becoming a video game programmer. My path is what I need to accomplish this goal. Getting there is a pain because it requires a lot of work to get to my goal. I hope that makes it a bit more clear.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> I think Fe can go two ways. Fe dom, yes they use shaming tactics because they believe everybody is desperate to be deemed "normal" and things like that. But extroverted functions are about taking in and comprehending the essence of the object with a focus on the object. I'm not saying altruism, but they gather information about the social group in the moment. They want to gauge how to go with the flow to have a wider circle of connections and be part of the group. They manipulate in packs, group cohesion. This is not an I win you loose kind of "strategy". Example, when I make a sales call I am aware of body language and everything, but this is a gauge of if we are connecting as in on the same page.
> 
> ^this is different than someone trying to win or be safe. My default setting is I am safe, context shows if I am understood, and clues about what matters to the"others" - just information, about choices, not about threat, no threat just choices. We make a deal or not, but it has to work for all parties - deal or no deal is not win or loose and does not strike at my worth or power as a person. Something is a fit or not a fit. I don't have to do manipulations because I can use reasons(Ti), plus reasonable consideration for human nature and context of the situation (Fe).
> 
> ...


The reason I'm not drawn to physics has little to do with interest though. I dislike things that require a lot of work for little reward. Physics had difficult exercises that only ended in simple answers. I want more, I want to see my succes. That is why programming is interesting. I see what I've accomplished.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

*@*Ninjaws good answers. Now could you define reward to me?

When you say you like to see what you have accomplished - what does that mean?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> *@*Ninjaws good answers. Now could you define reward to me?
> 
> When you say you like to see what you have accomplished - what does that mean?


A reward is something that can be seen by all. For instance, when I'm programming I will keep making progress and slowly but surely my game will become reality. First the tiles, then the objects, then the player, then the ability to interact with everything. Eventually everything works and I can look back at my work with pride.

I love showing my mother what I have achieved, and I'm rather excited to be able to show it to the teachers at the college (they will judge me based on my product).

If you were to compare theoretical and applied sciences, I would be applied to the max. I don't care about anything that is not able to produce results. Solving difficult problems when there is no tangible result frustrates me. 

"I solved the problem!" - No
"I made my character move in the game!" - Yes

That I also had to solve a problem to get the character to move is beside the point for me. I have created something, just the solving is not enough.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

@Old Intern

I'm curious, can you tell me why you are trying to argue against the OP being Ni/Se and Te/Fi? As an ENTP you share none of those functions?


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

selena87 said:


> @_Old Intern_
> 
> I'm curious, can you tell me why you are trying to argue against the OP being Ni/Se and Te/Fi? As an ENTP you share none of those functions?


I'm more like poking to see what can be seen. I hesitate to conclude INTJ because this is different than many conversations I've had with Ni doms, and the Fi of the thread seemed strong to me.

Also, the creating part seems like a drive to create and express, where INTJ's seem more focused on doing something that has an absolute confirmation. example "I brought something important to the world or the company" (leverage and N future thinking) (Te data plus Fi dedication) OR "people will judge me by my work" - equally valid but different.

Even though I fit Ne and Ti quite strongly, I think impracticality for Ne gets over emphasized on this forum. I also neeeed to do work where my brain-child goes out into the world to prove itself.

If I were to go only on functions (for me) Ne>Ti>Ni>Te, but a lot of that has to do with how tests are worded.

@selena87 200ish posts is still relatively new on the forum . . . . but @Ninjaws experience resonates with yours then?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> Also, the creating part seems like a drive to create and express


That's a good observation. I also love building cities in Anno, houses in the Sims, characters in RPGs. Basically any game that gives me the freedom to express myself is something I enjoy.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> "I brought something important to the world or the company" (leverage and N future thinking) (Te data plus Fi dedication) OR "people will judge me by my work"


It's more like "look at what I have achieved!". I don't really care about the effect it has on the world (as long as it is not a negative influence, anyways), it is just something that I am proud of. Like my own 'child', in a way. That's also why I hate losing units in strategy games. I'll make my armies in a way that I find them to be perfect, and losing stuff will take away from that perfection.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Do I hear votes for Fi-Se as dom and secondary? Relatively developed tertiary Ni would explain relate-ability of T

And of course Te in fourth place says nothing about IQ; I happen to think virgin records guy might be ESFP.

To be fair, I know there are people who have been on the forum - INTJ's doing graphic design or fine art. But ISFP seems to fit theoretically and with the time I've spent trolling INTJ's, and my Dad is ESFP 
-ISFP is my final answer:happy:


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> Do I hear votes for Fi-Se as dom and secondary? Relatively developed tertiary Ni would explain relate-ability of T
> 
> And of course Te in fourth place says nothing about IQ; I happen to think virgin records guy might be ESFP.


That would fit in with the initial suggestions people had in my Type me thread (http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my-personality-type/536745-here-we-go-again.html)

Is it possible for an ISFP to be a great long-term planner?


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

I think so. Just because your judging function is introverted doesn't mean you have no structure. It's just that you have to find methods that allow for that inner structure. Today people have many ways to organize, but that's my opinion that structure P/J labeling means something different today than 20 years ago. - Unless a person is far to the outside edge with Se or Ne, then spontaneous adaptability is the primary strength.

In some ways today, nobody is a good long term planner because things keep changing - but that might be me being old.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

I read through this thread and the OP just sounds like a more extroverted version of me. Same way of dealing with things, same way of "acting polite" in front of teachers and the subtle manipulation. Even the same kinds of video games, lol.

But of course a sample size of 1 doesn't mean anything, maybe we could have more people here to vote on it.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> I read through this thread and the OP just sounds like a more extroverted version of me. Same way of dealing with things, same way of "acting polite" in front of teachers and the subtle manipulation. Even the same kinds of video games, lol.
> 
> But of course a sample size of 1 doesn't mean anything, maybe we could have more people here to vote on it.
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:














Random trivia:
This song gets me so pumped, especially when he beats the drums at 4:18


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## VoodooDolls (Jul 30, 2013)

an ntj wouldn't even have a doubt about his type, just syng


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

MeTheParrot said:


> an ntj wouldn't even have a doubt about his type, just syng


I highly doubt that.

(See what I did there? )

EDIT: That sounded better in my head, nevermind. >.<


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Ninjaws said:


> I usually just assume the person wants something from me. It takes a long time for me to start trusting a person, and until that point I will remain skeptical of them. For instance, if someone is holding a pamphlet and coming at me with a smile I just sigh knowing they are going to try to get me to do something.


This sounds more like Te over Fi than Fi over Te. And in the situation with your dad, most Fi/Te or Te/Fi types reason this way, I will shut up to keep my house, room, job, to make things simpler for me...so Fe is likely out, Fe usually reasons it is the polite or correct thing to do, or simply want to maintain a pleasant atmosphere of feeling, like you said.

If you are very young I would suggest Te is stronger in you. Fi might speak out on the principle of the thing, defending mom, without stopping to think about the consequences.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> This sounds more like Te over Fi than Fi over Te. And in the situation with your dad, most Fi/Te or Te/Fi types reason this way, I will shut up to keep my house, room, job, to make things simpler for me...so Fe is likely out, Fe usually reasons it is the polite or correct thing to do, or simply want to maintain a pleasant atmosphere of feeling, like you said.
> 
> If you are very young I would suggest Te is stronger in you. Fi might speak out on the principle of the thing, defending mom, without stopping to think about the consequences.


I'm 19 at the moment, so I am pretty young. At this point I'm pretty much certain I use Te/Fi, while I can't really decide on Si/Ne or Ni/Se.

This is so frustrating. I was hoping to come to a conclusion but I keep running in circles. Worst of all, I am wasting far too much time on this while I should be focussing on my math exercises (even if I hate them with a passion).


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Pilot said:


> @Old Intern
> 
> I always associated the "subtle manipulation" tactic with Fe. The only people I know who use it are Fe users. Also, they tend to express pride over their ability to do it.
> 
> ...


Yes I swear, this is not made up, I had a TP guy tell me I should manipulate him, that he actually wished I would be conniving to my own benefit rather than state my feelings openly. He also said how valuable it is to say everything in a pleasant tone so that everyone will listen to what you have to say. This is why I don't date TPs, they secretly fetishize Fe skill as much as they may reject it as a social concept in theory.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Ninjaws said:


> I'm 19 at the moment, so I am pretty young. At this point I'm pretty much certain I use Te/Fi, while I can't really decide on Si/Ne or Ni/Se.
> 
> This is so frustrating. I was hoping to come to a conclusion but I keep running in circles. Worst of all, I am wasting far too much time on this while I should be focussing on my math exercises (even if I hate them with a passion).



Well it can take a long time to find your type, so good luck ...and I will continue to observe your posts and if I have anymore input, I will let you know!


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> He also said how valuable it is to say everything in a pleasant tone so that everyone will listen to what you have to say


Ugh. For real??? Now I know which kinds of guys to avoid. :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Thalassa said:


> This sounds more like Te over Fi than Fi over Te. And in the situation with your dad, most Fi/Te or Te/Fi types reason this way, I will shut up to keep my house, room, job, to make things simpler for me...so Fe is likely out, Fe usually reasons it is the polite or correct thing to do, or simply want to maintain a pleasant atmosphere of feeling, like you said.
> 
> If you are very young I would suggest Te is stronger in you. Fi might speak out on the principle of the thing, defending mom, without stopping to think about the consequences.


I disagree.
Trust? If you are using a thinking function - trust is a non issue, unless you have reason to think somebody is hiding a gun? or you have some serious shocking secret that could ruin you from a very practical standpoint? As a thinker you can take in information or not and you can just say No, nobody talks you into something without a gun to your head.

I just don't get what you are saying about concern that somebody wants something from you means you are using a T function.
A T function would define the situation with questions or action - what is there to stress over?

And it isn't logical to confront your Dad as if a lecture from you should be productive.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Old Intern said:


> I disagree.
> Trust? If you are using a thinking function - trust is a non issue, unless you have reason to think somebody is hiding a gun? or you have some serious shocking secret that could ruin you from a very practical standpoint? As a thinker you can take in information or not and you can just say No, nobody talks you into something without a gun to your head.
> 
> I just don't get what you are saying about concern that somebody wants something from you means you are using a T function.
> ...


Te thinks of things in strategic, quantifying ways. Te would be more likely to ask what someone else desires from an interaction, it's actually perfectly logical to presume people want something, because everyone does, even if it's something as innocent as love or belonging. I don't think young Fi types look at people and think what do they want, that more likely comes with age and experience, or spikes of inferior Te.

It also suggests higher Ni to be wary of people's motives, rather than taking them at face value. 

As for your last statement, you're repeating my sentiment in different words. Strong Te types would learn when young to think of logical consequences, and keep quiet for that reason, while a young Fi type would say hey fairness or my mother's rights are too important not to speak up about, without thinking or maybe just not caring if dad gets pissed.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> Yes, I strongly focus on the reactions of the other person. If I notice something makes them uncomfortable, I steer the conversation away from it or try to cover it with a joke.


There was something I read that I can not find that suggested paying attention to other s in conversation was an extroversion thing. I think this was in contrast to paying attention to your own thoughts and ideas (which I saw you mention wanting to have something formulated in your head before anwsering).
I also think this is feeling orientated in general.



> I've always found this such a vague question. The 'world' is basically the universe, filled with stars and planets. We happen to live on one of these. Looking at it like that also makes you feel quite insignificant, since we are absolutely nothing. It makes me feel less stressed, thinking about how unimportant everything is anyway.


So would you say that you perceive the world as a large interconnected system?




> A cup. I don't attach special meaning to something like that. The text on the cup might remind me of something, but a cup in and of itself is just a tool, nothing more. I do find certain cups more enjoyable to use, depending on how they look (I like the orange chocomel cup, since it looks tasty. ).


A cup looking tasty, sounds like your own subjective sensation which points to Si.

The cup is orange..ish.. x high, with y diameter. The label says 'something'. It's a cup.
(that would be more along the lines of Se, it is what it is. What can be sensed is a propety inherent in the thing itself)




> Hmm. I like tasty food, the feeling of the sun on my body, the feeling of water around me. I do like to try things (once I have the funds to do so, anyways), such as surfing. I am always a bit cautious when trying new things, but once I've done it once I'm comfortable with it. The thing that usually holds me back is my fear of looking like a fool in front of the others. I often act like I'm not interested, just because I don't want to look stupid.


I'm not sure which sensing function here.
Maybe Si as you have a sense of caution until the experience becomes familia.
Are you drawn to try something because it is new or because of the intensity of the experience?



> I often get ideas as to what I might do, but I'm really good at shooting those things down. I might suddenly think "I want to build a giant lego robot!" and start seaching for all the parts, make a design in my head. And then suddenly "Eh, screw it, too much work/cost/etc".


Do often find a knew idea you have interesting?
However once you flesh it out in your head you are now bored and move on rather than making it happen?




> I say "This reminds me of" quite often. Or "This tastes like". I generally relate things to something else, mainly to give the person I'm talking to a clearer view of what I'm saying. So when I'm explaining how I beat opponents in strategy games I might say "It's kind of like a bridge. You have to break it's supports, but you have to do it in one clean sweep. Once the supports are broken, the bridge will collapse and the opponent is done for. If you fail to break them, the opponent will be aware of your tactic and adjust accordingly. The advantage is lost at that point".


This sounds very Ne, Perhaps eve Fi and Ne.
Ne speaks in metaphors. It is brilliant at explaining things in different ways. Being feeling orientated with Ne I think manifests as using metaphors to help others understanding better.

Do you find it difficult to explain things straight to the point?




> Yes. This is also what makes me careful. I think "If I speak up to the teacher now, everyone will focus on me. As a result I might get targeted by other students. Let's keep quiet to avoid this."
> 
> Thinking about it, it's probably less focussed on the possibilities, and more on the consequences. I don't see things at surface level, I can make large leaps through time as to what could happen. This is why I am good at planning. I set up a general plan, think about all the intersections where things can go wrong and then try to make backup plans for those situations.
> 
> It's kind of like a long road. Things that can always be done (riding the bus for instance) are not things I look at, since they are not obstacles. An obstacle would be "I have to be admitted into college". There is a possibility this doesn't work out. For safety I should have a back-up plan to make sure I don't get stuck. Right now I have 3 back-up plans for possibilities like these.


I'm not sure if this indicates which type of intuition you are using here.

Do you often position yourself or base your decisions on results that yield the most potential?



> I used to do this with lego. I had a whole bunch of bionicles and I just started coming up with backstories for them, reason why they were allies, wars they fought in, strategies they had to beat eachothers, weaknesses, etc. I had built an entire world in which they lived (inside my head, ofcourse).


I think I read somewhere suggesting this is how intuitive children play.
To me this seems Ne like.



> Yes, I will think "How did it come to this? What did I do wrong? Was it perhaps the other person's doing?" Once I've determined the cause I think about what I could have done to prevent it, like "When he started speaking to me I should have diverted his attention elsewhere, this way he wouldn't have been inclined to start annoying me".


Again Ne, more possibilities.
I don't think Se would go over all the possible reasons why something went wrong. Rather try something out, if it doesn't work, try something else and see if that works (and through experience it will build up a practical sense of the consequences to things)...I could be wrong though as I think I'm speculating a bit.



> Yes, though especially in video games (like Terraria, I love building things), or with lego. I don't do it with things like clay, wood, paint, etc though since I can get dirty with those things (I can't stress enough how much I hate getting dirty xD)


Why do you think you enjoy creating?
Do you think it is about the possibility of ideas, or to physically express yourself in some way?



> Usually objects are just objects to me. I will remember where they came from (I used to have a plush lion I got from my uncle when I was born), but when they outlive their usefulness (don't look good anymore, functionally no longer working, etc), I tend to throw them away.
> 
> My mother saves everything from our past. Old toys, pictures, boxes, everything. I would throw all of that away if I had to deal with it. It takes up far too much space and if it was so important it wouldn't be in storage anyways. I'm fairly minimalistic in that way, all stuff with value is within sight.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your minimalistic side is Te coming through (objects must have some function or usefulness to be worthy )




> @Ksara, Please don't leave me hanging


I have actually tried to answer you twice now (hopefully I'm third time lucky haha), technology is against me...and who knew my phone lacks an undo button :/

Also I noticed some of you posts since and you believe your are an introvert.
Why do you believe so? In what way do you think your are introverted?


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

@Ninjaws
also take a look here:http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/425698-fi-users-how-objective-your-te.html
and here: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/533770-breaking-things-down-getting-overwhelmed.html

I think this may help how an Fi dom may relate to there Te.
Post #5 of the first link is interesting describing how for them to understand something they must be able to attach a feeling or make it personal in some way to appeal to them.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> So would you say that you perceive the world as a large interconnected system?


That's kinda what it is, isn't it? One big whole that exists out of a large amount of small things.




> A cup looking tasty, sounds like your own subjective sensation which points to Si.
> 
> The cup is orange..ish.. x high, with y diameter. The label says 'something'. It's a cup.
> (that would be more along the lines of Se, it is what it is. What can be sensed is a propety inherent in the thing itself)


I have the same thing with walls of a house, in that I look at it and think "It looks unpleasant, rough" and I don't want to touch it at that point.




> Are you drawn to try something because it is new or because of the intensity of the experience?


Mainly as a way of expanding my horizons. If you never try something new, you'll never get any new hobbies. For instance, I've never surfed before, but if I don't try it I'll never know whether or not I like it.




> Do often find a knew idea you have interesting?


That depends on whether or not I like the idea. If someone where to say "Let's go paint someone's house blue!" I would be against it since 1. I don't enjoy it, 2. The house owner will have to deal with a large mess, 3. He/she has not done anything to us, so us doing something to him/her would be unfair.

However, if someone was to suggest "Let's design a new boardgame!" I'd be all for it since I can really let my creativity loose on something like that. 




> However once you flesh it out in your head you are now bored and move on rather than making it happen?


Fairly often. Like the example above (with the boardgame), I can work tirelessly on the idea and have a fully fleshed out game done in a week. But then I'd have to get all the materials to make it, which is not something I enjoy doing. 

Same thing with Warhammer 40000 (a tabletop game). I think "Oh, that would look really nice if I used it in an army", but the price of the pieces and having to paint every model by hand just turns me off.




> Do you find it difficult to explain things straight to the point?


I rarely explain things without drawing comparisons or saying "For instance". If I were to teach a subject, I would make examples that the students would be able to relate to, instead of quoting the book.




> Do you often position yourself or base your decisions on results that yield the most potential?


Do you mean like the idea that has the most chance of becoming reality? Then yes. For instance, with the previously mentioned boardgame, if people started suggesting all kinds of fantastical things that we have absolutely no way of implementing, then we would just be wasting our time since it will never become more than an idea.




> Why do you think you enjoy creating?
> Do you think it is about the possibility of ideas, or to physically express yourself in some way?


I like to create things that can interact with other things. That's why painting doesn't interest me. If I build a house in the Sims, I can observe it from all angles and I can let my characters do their thing inside of it. If I make a character in a RPG, I can walk around in the world and interact with everything around me.

For instance, I tried modeling in Maya some time ago, but it bored me greatly. The model just stands still and has no mass. With programming, you create things like gravity and collision which actually impact everything in the game. 

I like to experiment with things. For instance, in Total War, I used to take 2 units and made them charge at eachother. I observed which one was superior and kept doing that until I found the best units in the game. I never did anything with those units, but the testing was fun. 

Oh, I think I didn't answer the question. ^^'
I think it's a combination of both. When I create something (like a house) I want it to be beautiful. But I also think about what kind of thing I can make of it. For instance, with RPGs I look through the skilltrees for interesting abilities, then I start to look for potential combos (bonus backstab damage combined with invisibility spell in Skyrim for instance). When I've mapped out what I want to do with my character, I start playing.




> I have actually tried to answer you twice now (hopefully I'm third time lucky haha), technology is against me...and who knew my phone lacks an undo button :/


Ah, technology. Can't live with it, nor without it. 




> Also I noticed some of you posts since and you believe your are an introvert.
> Why do you believe so? In what way do you think your are introverted?


I'm not actually 100 percent sure, since I definitely have social anxiety. I'm basically a recluse who only comes out of the house when I absolutely have to. I see interactions as a distraction from what I want to be doing. An exception is people that are very interesting to me. With those I can hold long conversations. I am kind of awkward though, in that I suddenly feel the need to go do something else. Balancing that with not wanting to be rude is quite a task.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=130282" target="_blank">Ninjaws</a></i></span>
> also take a look here:http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/425698-fi-users-how-objective-your-te.html
> and here: http://personalitycafe.com/nfs-temperament-forum-dreamers/533770-breaking-things-down-getting-overwhelmed.html
> 
> ...







This would be me making a business decision (I'd be Donna (the woman) in that situation, obviously).


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Ninjaws said:


> I'm kind of confused at the moment. I keep dartling back and forth between ISFP and ENTJ because both have things I can relate to. I just had an 'interaction', and I was wondering what others would get from it.
> (excuse me for my poor translating, this happened in Dutch)
> 
> My parents, my sister and me were having dinner a moment ago. My father starts complaining there isn't enough fish (it's always about him which pisses me off, but that's a separate issue), while he does absolutely nothing these days (home after having a heart operation). Then he starts talking about his training schedule (to get back in action).
> ...


 no idea, but you are kinda like me (maybe its a 6 thing :/ )

I tend to rage at stuff like that as well & I control it for various reasons at the time that its happening. If I'd just let go, I'm pretty sure I'd rip a lot of ppl a new asshole .

Despite this I'm quite mellow generally ~_~. ENFP here (well sort of, I'm not THAT social so I prefer INFP, thou I'm more agressive and Te-ish then msot INFPs I know)


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

FreeBeer said:


> no idea, but you are like me (maybe its a 6 thing :/ )


Good observation, as we have come to the conclusion that it indeed is dominant Fi. 
Ksara is now helping me figure out whether I use Se or Ne. The truth is so close I can almost taste it. ^^


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## Fierce (Mar 28, 2015)

diffidently inferior superior subconscious!!


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> That's kinda what it is, isn't it? One big whole that exists out of a large amount of small things.


Well your perception suggests so 
I could then say you could very well just be a brain in a jar being feed electronic signals to believe the world around you is true
Or maybe you are actually dead and right now is just you life flashing before your eyes 
or perhaps everything is one big hallucination and nothing is real, that I'm not real, and you're not real 



> I have the same thing with walls of a house, in that I look at it and think "It looks unpleasant, rough" and I don't want to touch it at that point.


To me I think this is Si because what you think is unpleasant is your subjective impression. Mine could very well be completely different (may I find that wall pleasant )




> Mainly as a way of expanding my horizons. If you never try something new, you'll never get any new hobbies. For instance, I've never surfed before, but if I don't try it I'll never know whether or not I like it.


Fair point, but what drives you to seek out new hobbies? Why is it important to have new hobbies?



> That depends on whether or not I like the idea. If someone where to say "Let's go paint someone's house blue!" I would be against it since 1. It's a waste of time, 2. The house owner will have to deal with a large mess.
> 
> However, if someone was to suggest "Let's design a new boardgame!" I'd be all for it since I can really let my creativity loose on something like that.


Ok with this board game idea, are you more interested in the concept of what the game could be, or are you more engaged with physically making the game?



> Fairly often. Like the example above (with the boardgame), I can work tirelessly on the idea and have a fully fleshed out game done in a week. But then I'd have to get all the materials to make it, which is not something I enjoy doing.
> 
> Same thing with Warhammer 40000 (a tabletop game). I think "Oh, that would look really nice if I used it in an army", but the price of the pieces and having to paint every model by hand just turns me off.


I think that just answered my previous question.

I think in general intuitives much prefer the idea over the concrete thing. They like to play around with the concept rather than make the thing.



> I rarely explain things without drawing comparisons or saying "For instance". If I were to teach a subject, I would make examples that the students would be able to relate to, instead of quoting the book.


This sounds like comparing and connecting ideas together. You are also aware of the reactions/purpose/audience as well. To me I think this is Ne and Fi. Ne is Shifting their perspective to the students point of view, and is relying on Fi to relate to the student or understand how the student feels.



> Do you mean like the idea that has the most chance of becoming reality? Then yes. For instance, with the previously mentioned boardgame, if people started suggesting all kinds of fantastical things that we have absolutely no way of implementing, then we would just be wasting our time since it will never become more than an idea.


Not quite what I meant. A basic example would be someone studying a general degree over a specialized degree as the general degree can be applied to many more fields. There are more potential outcomes.



> I like to create things that can interact with other things. That's why painting doesn't interest me. If I build a house in the Sims, I can observe it from all angles and I can let my characters do their thing inside of it. If I make a character in a RPG, I can walk around in the world and interact with everything around me.
> 
> For instance, I tried modeling some time ago, but it bored me greatly. The model just stands still and has no mass. With programming, you create things like gravity and collision which actually impact everything in the game.
> 
> ...


I think you answered my question about can you explain things to the point 
This wasn't really to the point




> Ah, technology. Can't live with it, nor without it.


The worst part is I took the the time to research my phone to ensure it had the features I needed for the best price...and it doesn't have anyway to undo something I accidentally delete.



> I'm not actually 100 percent sure, since I definitely have social anxiety. I'm basically a recluse who only comes out of the house when I absolutely have to. I see interactions as a distraction for what I want to be doing. An exception is people that are very interesting to me. With those I can hold long conversations. I am kind of awkward though, in that I suddenly feel the need to go do something else. Balancing that with not wanting to be rude is quite a task.


Now social anxiety =/= introversion
a recluse =/= introversion
not holding long conversations =/= introversion

introversion in general is the attention is placed within the self, and that this is where you draw your energy from.

For an extrovert their attention is to the world and will often align themselves to the current environment. This could be in the form of improving the world or making it more efficient, engaging people, just doing some sort of activity in the world, even sussing out possibilities and observing connections. For extroverts there is a lack of filter between them and the world, rather they immerse themselves in it. Often They need this process to engage their dominant process. And with this lack of filter they will often share their thoughts, feelings, opinions, personal histories with others. Generally if you don't know an extrovert you haven't been listening.

For introverts there is a filter between them and the world and often want the world to align to their ideals. That is they are paying attention to their reactions to things, it could be their thoughts, feelings, there inner experience, imagination, etc. It is pretty much about everything that goes on in their head or their own mental responses to things. Because of this filter they can be very selective with what they share with others and can very well keep their thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. to themselves. Generally if you don't know an introvert you haven't asked the right questions.


Now an extrovert can have social anxiety, they could very well be worried about what others may think or have a desire to impress others and fear failure. There could be many reasons why someone feels social anxiety regardless of their I/E orientation.

Again someone may be a recluse, and perhaps not by choice. There could be a number of external factors why someone is not constantly surrounded by people. Te dom, for example, may find people lacking in competence or illogical and prefer not to engage people as it wastes their time, yet they are still an extrovert.

As for not holding long conversations, an introvert is able to hold a long conversation when the environment aligns to them. This could be as simple as a conversation topic that interests them in some way comes up, and then they can be off talking about this with someone for hours. length of conversation is not dependent on the I/E orientation.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> This would be me making a business decision (I'd be Donna (the woman) in that situation, obviously).


Lol that's funny.
I'm not sure what to make of it though personality wise.

Perhaps, and very tentatively on my side, introverted, takes in all the information, then comes to a decision.





What are your thoughts on Ne?
How well do you relate to this process?

Also what are you thoughts on ENFP?

Also check this thread out: http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/99661-descriptions-mbti-step-ii-facets.html. I recommend going through the different facets of each dichotomy and seeing which side you generally fall on.

I think this will give a good indication of type.
People do say that cognitive functions are the way to go however I don't think the functions always line up neatly to distinguish type. There is actually no consensus yet on the way functions are to stack.


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

Ninjaws said:


> Good observation, as we have come to the conclusion that it indeed is dominant Fi.
> Ksara is now helping me figure out whether I use Se or Ne. The truth is so close I can almost taste it. ^^


For what it's worth, I've seen no indications of Ne in you whatsoever.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

So, ugh... you decided that you're an INFP now? I'm so confused, lol. But good luck with finding out your type.

ggwp


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

selena87 said:


> So, ugh... you decided that you're an INFP now? I'm so confused, lol. But good luck with finding out your type.
> 
> ggwp


I don't think he did decide that, I think he's just talking to someone about it. 

Because @Ninjaws , my dear, I really doubt you're INFP. But...I don't know you, so I could be wrong of course.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, what type of TV or movies attract you, and when gaming, what about games do you enjoy most?

And while you considered fields of study, how did you arrive at connecting education with employment opportunities. I mean you have been kicking this around, - with what criteria or sources?

These questions are more about past action vs. self awareness.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> So, ugh... you decided that you're an INFP now? I'm so confused, lol. But good luck with finding out your type.
> 
> ggwp


I have not decided anything, I'm just answering the questions and observing what comes out.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> I have not decided anything, I'm just answering the questions and observing what comes out.


Here are my thoughts on your intuition. You seem to prefer to orientate towards problem-solving rather than generating new ideas. It's like you come up with a new idea, and work it to death or at least with the intention of finding resolution. That would indicate more to me an introverted intuition vs. extraverted. Also, it seems you like to work through these ideas with manipulatives, whether virtual or material. That, to me, indicates possibly even stronger extraverted sensing. 

But again, none of this is what i'd call "settled." Have you considered ISTP? I don't know why, but reading what you wrote about the games, and trying out various combinations, etc. all of that struck me as more STP than anything else--but again, I'm no expert, and it is just my impressions as I read. You, like @Ksara are tough nuts to crack. ;-)


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> Well your perception suggests so
> I could then say you could very well just be a brain in a jar being feed electronic signals to believe the world around you is true
> Or maybe you are actually dead and right now is just you life flashing before your eyes
> or perhaps everything is one big hallucination and nothing is real, that I'm not real, and you're not real











When I read those things I usually feel like "Yes, that can all be true, but even if it was, would it make a difference?" For instance, if we lived in the Matrix, would it make a difference that we know we live in it? Ofcourse, you'd be like "This is all not real" but if there is nothing you can do about it, then all you will have is a hard life since you know you are a slave while no one else believes you and there is nothing you can do to change it.




> Fair point, but what drives you to seek out new hobbies? Why is it important to have new hobbies?


I don't often go out of my way to find new hobbies, since video games have so many genres, but something that would drive me is if my friends all did a certain thing and had a lot of fun with it. Assuming I like it as well, I'd adopt that new hobby so I can have a good time with them. Like how I bought Age of Empires 3 just so I could play with my high school friends. That was a lot of fun and money well spend, in my opinion.




> Not quite what I meant. A basic example would be someone studying a general degree over a specialized degree as the general degree can be applied to many more fields. There are more potential outcomes.


Oh, I'm sorry. Yes definitely potential outcomes. A very good example are the subjects I chose in high school. I was really unsure as to what I wanted to become later, so I decided to choose all the subjects that opened more doors for me later on. Things like history weren't even required to study history, so I didn't take those. I chose things like physics, chemistry, math, economics, biology, etc. I didn't like any of these, but they allow me to basically pick any major I want now, which gives me a lot more freedom than if I had said "Oh I like history, let's go with that".




> For an extrovert their attention is to the world and will often align themselves to the current environment. This could be in the form of improving the world or making it more efficient, engaging people, just doing some sort of activity in the world, even sussing out possibilities and observing connections. For extroverts there is a lack of filter between them and the world, rather they immerse themselves in it. Often They need this process to engage their dominant process. And with this lack of filter they will often share their thoughts, feelings, opinions, personal histories with others. Generally if you don't know an extrovert you haven't been listening.
> 
> For introverts there is a filter between them and the world and often want the world to align to their ideals. That is they are paying attention to their reactions to things, it could be their thoughts, feelings, there inner experience, imagination, etc. It is pretty much about everything that goes on in their head or their own mental responses to things. Because of this filter they can be very selective with what they share with others and can very well keep their thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. to themselves. Generally if you don't know an introvert you haven't asked the right questions.


The thing is, if you look at the functions introversion/extraversion doesn't really matter. 
With extraversion, if someone asks I'll share my opinions and stuff on things, but I don't mention them before then.
Based on your descriptions, that sounds more in line with introversion.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Old Intern said:


> Just out of curiosity, what type of TV or movies attract you, and when gaming, what about games do you enjoy most?
> 
> And while you considered fields of study, how did you arrive at connecting education with employment opportunities. I mean you have been kicking this around, - with what criteria or sources?
> 
> These questions are more about past action vs. self awareness.


I'm not really a fan of television, since I can only sit and watch (obviously). I like stuff like Game of Thrones since the story has a lot of depth, though. If there is something I enjoy watching, it is nature programs. Like how wild animals hunt for prey, etc.

I like a wide variety of video game genres. The first requirement is good graphics, though. The game has to look nice. 

Genres I enjoy a lot:
RPGs (Dark Souls, Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls) 
Simulation games (Anno, Rollercoaster Tycoon, Sims)
Open world games (Terraria, GTA, Far Cry)
Platformers (Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter, Rayman 2, Spyro)
Strategy games (C&C, Total War, Dawn of War)
[even though I'm pretty bad at them, I like building armies/bases that suit my tastes. I prefer building a large prosperous empire over matches that are over in 5 minutes and don't achieve anything] 

I used the information on the site of the school and a book called "Keuzegids" which goes over all fields of study, their starting income, prospects and chance to get a job. This is based on reseach (basically questioning students that have just graduated).


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> I don't think he did decide that, I think he's just talking to someone about it.
> 
> Because @Ninjaws , my dear, I really doubt you're INFP. But...I don't know you, so I could be wrong of course.


If you have suggestions, please throw them my way!


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> What are your thoughts on Ne?


Full-on Ne would be the person that moves furniture around every week just because it has become boring. I'd be like "But it looked good before! Why did you change it?!".




> How well do you relate to this process?


I relate to the asking 'what if' questions, seeing different perspectives and the experimental attitude (like what I described with Total War) quite well. I don't have a constant desire for change however. If I find a balance that I find comfortable, I'll hold onto that. 




> Also what are you thoughts on ENFP?


Based on the stereotypes, they seem to be bubbly happy go lucky kind of people. I exercise extreme caution when around people I don't know, since everybody is a potential threat. Only after I'm sure they are friendly will I drop my barriers(so to speak). Then again, I've not exactly had a happy life up until this point so that might have changed me quite a bit.




> Also check this thread out: http://personalitycafe.com/intj-forum-scientists/99661-descriptions-mbti-step-ii-facets.html. I recommend going through the different facets of each dichotomy and seeing which side you generally fall on.
> 
> I think this will give a good indication of type.
> People do say that cognitive functions are the way to go however I don't think the functions always line up neatly to distinguish type. There is actually no consensus yet on the way functions are to stack.


Iniating-Receiving

-Receiving. No contest.


Expressive-Contained

-Not sure. I'm willing to share and I'm not secretive, but I will only share it if the other person is interested. I will, however, withhold information I think might cause damage. For instance, when I'm at college and a teacher is assessing my work, I will obviously not mention that I've not been using my time efficiently. Or when I have my thoughts on something but I think it might cause someone to be mad at me, I'll just be quiet. In general I don't like drawing attention to myself as it makes me nervous, so I rarely speak up in public situations.
Leaning towards contained.


Gregarious-Intimate

-Intimate. Remember my conversation with that girl?


Active-Reflective

-Reflective. I do like to engage with the environment when playing boardgames with friends and such, though.


Enthusiastic-Quiet

-Quiet


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> Have you considered ISTP? I don't know why, but reading what you wrote about the games, and trying out various combinations, etc. all of that struck me as more STP than anything else--but again, I'm no expert, and it is just my impressions as I read. You, like @Ksara are tough nuts to crack. ;-)


I do relate well to the inferior Fe descriptions (seeking a good atmosphere but being unable to create it), but I'm not sure about dominant Ti. Most people seem to think I'm a Te/Fi user, but Fe/Ti is quite possible, I think.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> I do relate well to the inferior Fe descriptions (seeking a good atmosphere but being unable to create it), but I'm not sure about dominant Ti. Most people seem to think I'm a Te/Fi user, but Fe/Ti is quite possible, I think.


On the other hand, the previous post of yours (before this last one) screams ISFP to me... There's one thing I remember. When I was college age, and in college, I had a great desire to be logical, rational, and engage that side of me very strongly. It was, in fact, during these years that I found it difficult to admit to myself that I was, in fact, a more "emotionally-orientated" person--something I could admit to my now wife, and to her alone, but not to anybody else. I didn't know about myers-briggs, or cognitive functions or Jung, and the fact that feeling is also a rational function, so to me, emotions were emotions, and the idea of "following your heart" just reeked of gushiness and saccharine to me, and totally yucky. 

Like I said... you and ksara... ;-)

You seem to understand yourself quite well, in actuality. I really wouldn't kill myself to find a four-letter type, when that could end up simply being a distraction.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> When I read those things I usually feel like "Yes, that can all be true, but even if it was, would it make a difference?" For instance, if we lived in the Matrix, would it make a difference that we know we live in it? Ofcourse, you'd be like "This is all not real" but if there is nothing you can do about it, then all you will have is a hard life since you know you are a slave while no one else believes you and there is nothing you can do to change it.


Haha yes, I was just demonstrating how perception can differ between people, my examples to the more extreme ends.
It could be as simple as someone views a glass half full, another the glass is half empty, the third comments the glass contains exactly 250ml of water.



> I don't often go out of my way to find new hobbies, since video games have so many genres, but something that would drive me is if my friends all did a certain thing and had a lot of fun with it. Assuming I like it as well, I'd adopt that new hobby so I can have a good time with them. Like how I bought Age of Empires 3 just so I could play with my high school friends. That was a lot of fun and money well spend, in my opinion.


So for you it would be more about the experience than seeking something new?
This to me comes across more as Se.



> Oh, I'm sorry. Yes definitely potential outcomes. A very good example are the subjects I chose in high school. I was really unsure as to what I wanted to become later, so I decided to choose all the subjects that opened more doors for me later on. Things like history weren't even required to study history, so I didn't take those. I chose things like physics, chemistry, math, economics, biology, etc. I didn't like any of these, but they allow me to basically pick any major I want now, which gives me a lot more freedom than if I had said "Oh I like history, let's go with that".


I do know that Ne is often described as making choices based on what yields the most potential. I am unsure about how similar Se is to this.



> The thing is, if you look at the functions introversion/extraversion doesn't really matter.
> With extraversion, if someone asks I'll share my opinions and stuff on things, but I don't mention them before then.
> Based on your descriptions, that sounds more in line with introversion.


Well Jung's book psychological types actually goes into great depths about introversion and extroversion, leaving the cognitive functions to chapter X. I think it is an important aspect to understand and is a real aspect of personality that is able to be physically tested.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

Ninjaws said:


> Full-on Ne would be the person that moves furniture around every week just because it has become boring. I'd be like "But it looked good before! Why did you change it?!".


No not really, to small a scale here.
Ne isn't concerned with furniture, Ne is concerned with the new, how it can manipulate and change things, bringing it's visions into reality. Ne Creates, invents, interconnects. 
How this guy describes Ne here I think gives a good idea: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/551778-functions-ti-ne-little-intp.html



> I relate to the asking 'what if' questions, seeing different perspectives and the experimental attitude (like what I described with Total War) quite well. I don't have a constant desire for change however. If I find a balance that I find comfortable, I'll hold onto that.


Well I would not place you as an Ne dom. There is a desire for change. When things become routine here is a sense of entrapment and something else foster.




> Based on the stereotypes, they seem to be bubbly happy go lucky kind of people. I exercise extreme caution when around people I don't know, since everybody is a potential threat. Only after I'm sure they are friendly will I drop my barriers(so to speak). Then again, I've not exactly had a happy life up until this point so that might have changed me quite a bit.


Well yes they can be however the ENFP I know isn't always bubbly and go lucky. They can be quite conscientious and thinks a lot about his impact on the world. Everywhere they look they sees how everything interconnects and the state the world is in. Even with people, they wants deep connections, not just go out and have light fluffy fun that is completely meaningless.
They are very caring but will always uphold there values and what they believes is right. They is always seeing the possibilities, and is always relating his experiences to one another or to other people.

Stereotypes aren't the complete picture.



> Iniating-Receiving
> 
> -Receiving. No contest.
> 
> ...


Well according to the official MBTI I would say you are most likely an introvert.
There are the other dichotomies further along in that post.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> No not really, to small a scale here.
> Ne isn't concerned with furniture, Ne is concerned with the new, how it can manipulate and change things, bringing it's visions into reality. Ne Creates, invents, interconnects.
> How this guy describes Ne here I think gives a good idea: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/551778-functions-ti-ne-little-intp.html


That was just my perception of it. 
From what I've read, it seems to be that Ne gets stimulated by ideas for the sake of ideas. New experiences for the sake of new experiences. 

I only get energised by new experiences if they are enjoyable in some way. 

For instance: 
Boardgame: Fun with friends
Beach: Nice and warm
Food: Tasty

However, I will only know if they are enjoyable after I have tried them. This leads me to be skeptical of new things at first. "New food? The old food tastes good, why do we have to change it?". Once I know something is enjoyable, I will engage in that activity more often.




> Stereotypes aren't the complete picture.











If that was the case, then finding the type would be over in 5 minutes.




> Well according to the official MBTI I would say you are most likely an introvert.
> There are the other dichotomies further along in that post.


I could go over all of those, but wouldn't that be rather shallow since it is based on the 4-letter test?
The difference is not just S/N, it's Si vs Se vs Ni vs Ne.
I can go over all of them, if you think that will help.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ninjaws has already highlighted which of the 8 functions he identifies with earlier in this thread, if that helps, ksara.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

@selena87, @Ksara
I went looking for that list and it is on page 10.

I noticed a few things I missed though:

Si:
I do collect things that brought me pleasure from the past (a good example are the Bionicles I recently bought to complete my collection)
I do compare new sensory data with already accumulated data ("This new food tastes worse than the food we used to eat")

Fe:
I am able to set aside my own viewpoints for the sake of harmony. (when this really conflicts with me as a person I will refuse, however and simply leave the people I'm with)


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

I noticed you didn't highlight anything in that Te part  Just an observation.
Not gonna interfere with you and ksara though, good luck :wink:

gg


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> I noticed you didn't highlight anything in that Te part . Just an observation.
> Not gonna interfere with you and ksara though, good luck :wink:
> 
> gg


That's because of crap like this:

"The experts all agree that this is the case"

Like I give a shit about what 'experts' think.


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

Ninjaws said:


> If you have suggestions, please throw them my way!


Well reading some of your other posts I don't think you have the best understanding of Ne. I would research it more deeply, but I would guess not an NP for you. 
Kind of a vibe thing...and how you speak. 

Probably ISFP?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> Well reading some of your other posts I don't think you have the best understanding of Ne. I would research it more deeply, but I would guess not an NP for you.
> Kind of a vibe thing...and how you speak.
> 
> Probably ISFP?


It is important to note however, that while my typing style is (at least, this is how I see it) pretty dry and straight forward, my way of talking is not. I have to force myself to speak up since I naturally have a fairly weak and relaxed way of speaking.

I don't know if this changes anything, but I know for a fact that I'm not nearly as confident in real life as I might appear online.
(which may explain why people see me as a dominant Te user at times)


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

Ninjaws said:


> It is important to note however, that while my typing style is (at least, this is how I see it) pretty dry and straight forward, my way of talking is not. I have to force myself to speak up since I naturally have a fairly weak and relaxed way of speaking.
> 
> I don't know if this changes anything, but I know for a fact that I'm not nearly as confident in real life as I might appear online.
> (which may explain why people see me as a dominant Te user at times)


That really has nothing to do with what I was getting at. xD

What I meant was your entire style of speaking does not fit with a Ne user, and the way you talk about Ne isn't really what Ne is. 

I don't think you're a Te dom though.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> That really has nothing to do with what I was getting at. xD
> 
> What I meant was your entire style of speaking does not fit with a Ne user, and the way you talk about Ne isn't really what Ne is.
> 
> I don't think you're a Te dom though.


Oh.. 
Still, it might be worth something, right?:th_blush:

Oh and what I used as examples of Ne is just how far my understanding of it goes. I don't fully understand it yet, as you can clearly see.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

If I were to decide based on this video, I'd go with Ni. As I've said before, I am good at taking an idea and fully fleshing it out. The guy in the video says that Ne is the opposite: plenty of ideas, but mainly surface level, not as deep.


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## Courtalort (Jun 29, 2013)

Ninjaws said:


> Oh..
> Still, it might be worth something, right?:th_blush:
> 
> Oh and what I used as examples of Ne is just how far my understanding of it goes. I don't fully understand it yet, as you can clearly see.


Hehe you're ok. It was still helpful yes, just wasn't my point (which I realize is my fault, I should have been more clear). 

Is there something about ISFP that doesn't sit right?


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

CourtneyJD said:


> That really has nothing to do with what I was getting at. xD
> 
> What I meant was your entire style of speaking does not fit with a Ne user, and the way you talk about Ne isn't really what Ne is.
> 
> I don't think you're a Te dom though.


Second these. Don't see Te or Ne, especially Ne.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

CourtneyJD said:


> Hehe you're ok. It was still helpful yes, just wasn't my point (which I realize is my fault, I should have been more clear).
> 
> Is there something about ISFP that doesn't sit right?



ISFPs are not impulsive, right? Since I tend to have a rather cautious approach to things (like I said with food "The old food tastes good, there is no need to replace it."). I'm not much of a thrillseeker, but as long as they don't have any risks attached to them, I am open to them (I've never backed away from sports/rollercoasters/etc)

This does speak out to me: (From Se from ISFj in Socionics)


> ESIs often have a tendency to be confrontational and may come across as unwavering and strict in their judgments and discipline. They are usually particularly oppositional towards those whom they mistrust or towards characters whose moral fortitude they are inclined to question. They may go out of their way to press judgment, fight for what they believe is ethically sound, or for those emotionally close to them.
> 
> ESIs may sometimes practice a variant of "tough love," challenging others towards acting in a way they feel is in their best interests. They can often come across as matter-of-fact and demanding in their expectations of others, and may have blunt advice, especially geared towards success in the material world. They are sometimes archetypally pictured as strict disciplinarians. Often, however, they may feel as though they challenge others no harder than they challenge themselves; they are often extensively self-critical and may strive hardest to live up to their own expectations for themselves. ESIs may concern themselves with following the rules or ettiquette for successfully interacting in a formal setting, and with dressing and coming across properly to others. They often have a keen sense of style.
> 
> Though ESIs are sometimes inclined to retreat from and avoid others, they at other times are not reticent to initiate contact and engage others intimately. They may become very absorbed and reliant on their emotional connections towards others. They may also at other times be highly proactive and constantly prepared to contact others or push others towards a state of activity.


However, I'm rarely confrontational. I will speak up when I have to, but usually I prefer being in the shadows (though this most likely comes from having been picked on for a long time, which made me fear being in the center of attention)
I can be loud and gregarious when the mood is right, but I have to drop my defenses to be able to let loose like that.

The one thing that doesn't fit with me is that when I was in high school I chose my subjects based on usefulness and potential later on, rather than immediate interest. Are ISFPs that careful/logical at such an age (13/14)?


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

Socionics Se is very different from mbti Se, so I wouldn't put much stock on this.

Remember the drawing analysis thread? I saw to_august analysis of yours, and apparently, s/he is pretty sure of you being intuitive and logical.  Just throwing this out there.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> The one thing that doesn't fit with me is that when I was in high school I chose my subjects based on usefulness and potential later on, rather than immediate interest. Are ISFPs that careful/logical at such an age (13/14)?


That would depend on upbringing. If your parents strongly supported it, and spoke about it, you may be either more likely to be like this, or contrariwise, less likely--especially if they were negative in their approach, and not positive. 

For myself, I was, I fear, the opposite. I was in the advanced placement program through ninth grade, but I hated the lit and English program for the college prep line--too much artsy criticism of literature, and the math was horrible (even though, in the end, I didn't get out of Algebra II), so I jumped ship, so to speak. I took generic English (grammar) and a more interesting history course in 10th grade. I stuck with my Advanced Lab Biology, because we were going to dissect sharks, pigs and other fun stuff--though not, that year, the cat or watch the dissection of a brain--human or cow, I don't remember, but the previous class got to do those). That was also the year, I think, we bred tsetse flies, which was also fun. My approach to education has always been a bit quirky and individual. To me, I never cared about grades or tests, homework or any of that. I just enjoyed learning--everything. I don't think I ever had a class that bored me entirely. There was always something that was fun to learn, and that was what I did--learn. I didn't always do the assignments properly or on time, and I was really bad about homework (especially in the maths), but I always did really well on tests. I tended to also, if something interested me, go to the library and look up more information. I seldom left a class knowing exactly what the teacher intended, but always with more and broader knowledge than what the assignments showed. I like learning and I like reading. I did the same thing in college. I forget my ending grade average--3.4 or something--but it didn't reflect what I had actually learned, to be sure. I had some profs who saw that, and who would feed my curiosity, but some didn't notice their students at all. Life's like that, I suppose. I have always tended to fly below the radar, and I like it that way. I don't want nor need recognition from others. Satisfying my own curiosity and desire to know has always been enough for me. 

I also prefer being a bit more "hand's on" than some others, which made it difficult at times, but I found ways around my inability to sit still. I allowed myself the freedom to spend 15 minutes working hard, so long as I could, for instance, go read a photography or typography or graphic arts mag on my "break" or go walking. I pace a lot when studying. I loved my printing classes, because it was entirely hand's on. I quickly became the go-to guy to fix problems with the shop equipment or problems with design or design elements--if something didn't look right, I was the one to ask, because I had an eye for that stuff. I loved physically manipulating all the elements of a page--back then, it was all physical. You made PMTs of graphic elements, used a Compu-graphic typesetter to print out columns of text, which you then cut to fit the layout, and there was tons of genuine clip art in huge books that we would shoot onto PMT, and clip out. I loved taking all those elements, and putting them together on a pasteboard, masking, and burning to a plate (or two or three) and watching it all come to life out the back end of an offset press. It was wonderful, and the smells! and the ka-thump and whirr of the press. Glorious! Nowadays, it's all virtual on my Mac screen, and the silent whirrr of a desktop printer. bleh. But it's still fun to hold in your hands the results of that. Last year, I helped publish a book--a real book with a cover and everything. To hold in one's hands the physical book, and know it is your handiwork, and that it's being sold all over the world--awesome! Even though I miss the smells and sounds. (I also did the ebook, but that's even more boring, because you have almost no control of how the final book will look--and Kindle books are ugly! Hate them)

But I somehow have digressed... oh, learning... No, I never was so pragmatic in my studies.... but I don't think that this would be indicative of all ISFPs. I hated school and everyone in it. This was my oasis in the misery. It was how I coped. I loved college, though, as I was much freer, and people are nicer by then. ;-)


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

selena87 said:


> Socionics Se is very different from mbti Se, so I wouldn't put much stock on this.
> 
> Remember the drawing analysis thread? I saw to_august analysis of yours, and apparently, s/he is pretty sure of you being intuitive and logical.  Just throwing this out there.


Socionics Se seems to take on one aspect of Se that MBTI misses, but it misses some aspects that MBTI gets. Put the two together, and I think you get a fuller picture. Socionics Se is all about the volitional aspect--it's portrayed like Te without the T--irrational volition. Keirsey describes it as utilitarian use of tools. MBTI treats it as passive observation--observing everything--and honestly, I don't think this is true, except when it's in the weaker positions. Se, when in the ego is a differentiating function, and quite active--choosing and ignoring as it sees fit. Socionics gets that part quite well. The thing is, at least when it's aux, it is not the sort of thing that is always active, and it does overlook a lot of the world around it. If something doesn't need attention, it is in and out, and forgotten. Actually, Se is more like RAM than anything else. If it is something that needs to be executed, it's loaded into RAM, and executed, and when it's no longer needed, it's purged and forgotten. Si, on the other hand, is more like a hard drive. In order to be used, it has to be loaded into RAM, but that is only momentary. When it's unloaded from RAM, the data is still stored on the hard drive, and that's what really matters to Si. There are a lot of analogies that can be drawn out from this comparison between RAM and long-term storage, how they operate, etc.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> That would depend on upbringing. If your parents strongly supported it, and spoke about it, you may be either more likely to be like this, or contrariwise, less likely--especially if they were negative in their approach, and not positive.


My parents supported making wise choices, but they were careful never to push me into a certain direction.




> My approach to education has always been a bit quirky and individual. To me, I never cared about grades or tests, homework or any of that. I just enjoyed learning--everything. I don't think I ever had a class that bored me entirely. There was always something that was fun to learn, and that was what I did--learn. I didn't always do the assignments properly or on time, and I was really bad about homework (especially in the maths), but I always did really well on tests.


I'm the exact opposite here, sadly. I hated all the subjects I took and only cared about my grades. All that was on my mind was getting out of there so I could finally do something I enjoyed.
Because of my desire to get out of there, I paid special attention to assignments, as failing was unacceptable to me. I did fail though, since I was trying to make it through the highest level of education in the Netherlands (VWO). I failed miserably after 5 years and had to go back to 4 HAVO (second highest level and one year backwards). This shattered me completely. I was far above the level of the others though, so getting through it was extremely easy. 

I do not regret that though, because Havo is where I met the people that I had a lot of fun with. More fun than I've ever had in high school up until that point. Homework I did simply because I wanted to keep up and get good grades. I never liked it, but because I finished everything at school I didn't really have much homework. Once I was at home I did absolutely nothing (no motivation whatsoever). I think I worked the hardest of everyone in my class, since I wanted nothing more than to get away from that place.





> I also prefer being a bit more "hand's on" than some others, which made it difficult at times, but I found ways around my inability to sit still.


I am able to concentrate extremely well when the subject interests me. However, if it doesn't, even 5 minutes of focussing is torture.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

@TelepathicGoose
Nothing much. Not much progress since the last time :/

Ninjaws:
Wanna make a thread later and ask people to test our games? Or would it be bad to expose your game before the interview?


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> @TelepathicGoose
> Nothing much. Not much progress since the last time :/
> 
> Ninjaws:
> Wanna make a thread later and ask people to test our games? Or would it be bad to expose your game before the interview?


Then it would be unveiled before the interview! 

I'm not totally sure how to do such a thing though. would I have to open source all of the code?


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## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

selena87 said:


> @TelepathicGoose
> Nothing much. Not much progress since the last time :/


Awh, I see.


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## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> I think ISFP is the right one. People have made clear I don't use Ne and that my Te is fairly weak. I use Fi over Ti. It's been a long and hard battle, but results are finally starting to show!
> 
> I will wait for Ksara and Old Intern who still have some information, but I think ISFP is the right one.


Oh, now I see. ENTJ to ISFP? A shadow, I see.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

It's ok, no problem, you don't have to do that XD

As for the showing people part, I don't know about SFML but some other game engines I tried has an export option into swf/java and people can just run it in the browser. I don't remember the exact names though..


edit: NO you WONT open source your code


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

TelepathicGoose said:


> Oh, now I see. ENTJ to ISFP? A shadow, I see.


Well, ENTJ is mainly my mask in public. I had gotten so good at faking being productive that I actually believed that it was part of my nature. What I had forgotten is that while I might have been able to keep that up for some time, it started to drain me completely to the point that I started to get chronic fatigue. By focussing on what I enjoy rather than what I can do, the differences became clear.

I get no joy from the productive behaviour nor planning, I merely do them because I have to. 
My joys are mainly Fi and Se: Self-expression, building things, beauty, having fun with friends (boardgames, sports, etc), food, laying in the sun.


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## Telepathis Goosus (Mar 28, 2015)

Ninjaws said:


> Well, ENTJ is mainly my mask in public. I had gotten so good at faking being productive that I actually believed that it was part of my nature. What I had forgotten is that while I might have been able to keep that up for some time, it started to drain me completely to the point that I started to get chronic fatigue. By focussing on what I enjoy rather than what I can do, the differences became clear.
> 
> I get no joy from the productive behaviour nor planning, I merely do them because I have to.
> My joys are mainly Fi and Se: Self-expression, building things, beauty, having fun with friends (boardgames, sports, etc), food, laying in the sun.


Ah, I see. 

Yes, you're definitely not an ENTJ. My ENTJ father's list of "joyful" activities would be "organizing the household, talking about extremely intellectual topics for ten hours, and yelling at us to do certain chores." I love him, because he is intelligent and awesome, however a bit of a hothead and a control freak.

Anyway, ISFP seems to me like a good match. And good for you, ISFPs are really wonderful and yet are extremely underrated and somewhat rare on this website.


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## sicksadworlds (May 4, 2015)

@Ninjaws have you ever read the book "Was That Really Me?: How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality"? I think reading it may be a bit clarifying for you. The book explains how both dominant and inferior functions manifest in each type, which I found very interesting.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

I go to be and wake up to an explosion of activity lol



Ninjaws said:


> That was just my perception of it.
> From what I've read, it seems to be that Ne gets stimulated by ideas for the sake of ideas. New experiences for the sake of new experiences.
> 
> I only get energised by new experiences if they are enjoyable in some way.
> ...


If this is that case my vote is sensing.
Now you could very well be Se with your hesitancy due to your overall introversion.



> If that was the case, then finding the type would be over in 5 minutes.


cute owl.



> I could go over all of those, but wouldn't that be rather shallow since it is based on the 4-letter test?
> The difference is not just S/N, it's Si vs Se vs Ni vs Ne.


I think it is a good indicator for a number of reasons. To begin with, both Fi and Fe have something in common, they are both feeling functions, that is they judge something as agreeable/repulsive or like/dislike. As they both judge through feelings there is an overlap between the two. This goes for Ti and Te, Ni and Ne, and Si and Se

This is where I believe the MBTI taps into these overall generalities to distinguish an overall feeler from an overall thinker, etc. so it can give an overview or direction to investigate.

Another thing to note, when you look at the socionics system and look at the different blocks functions belong too, a person is very good at using the functions in their ego block, and there ID block. However they value the functions of their ego block and devalue the fuctions of the Id block. Turns out for an ISFj (for example) they have good use of Fi, Se and Fe, Si however they are going to favour Fi over Fe, and Se over Si. Their world view and what brings them satisfaction are the Fi/Se perspective, and what they take for granted and may use to mock others is the Fe/Si perspective.

I do not know how much Socionics relates to MBTI, and I very well could have mish mashed them together to make sense why someone may be confused between type xxxP or xxxJ, even though they have nothing in common.

(I'm not sure how much you have looked into socionics here is a start about the blocks I was talking about if you are interested:http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/431850-dimensionality-typing.html)




> I can go over all of them, if you think that will help.


No need I found the list 
thanks @selena87


So you identify strongly with the Ji functions, you identify with Se, Ni and somewhat with Si and Fe?
You do not identify with Ne or Te according to that list (nothing was highlighted for either)?

You identfy as an introvert?
and you identfy as a feeler, most likely Fi?

This really that leaves Fi/Se or ISFP.
How do you relate to this (though I think you already answered this )

Ultimately this is your decision. If you believe this describes you well then I do not see any reason why you would be any other type


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

ferroequinologist said:


> You, like @Ksara are tough nuts to crack. ;-)


Maybe I'll just go with I'm nuts


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

Ninjaws said:


> Well, ENTJ is mainly my mask in public. I had gotten so good at faking being productive that I actually believed that it was part of my nature. What I had forgotten is that while I might have been able to keep that up for some time, it started to drain me completely to the point that I started to get chronic fatigue. By focussing on what I enjoy rather than what I can do, the differences became clear.
> 
> I get no joy from the productive behaviour nor planning, I merely do them because I have to.
> My joys are mainly Fi and Se: Self-expression, building things, beauty, having fun with friends (boardgames, sports, etc), food, laying in the sun.


It took me 48 years to discover what you have at your age. Consider yourself fortunate.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

sicksadworlds said:


> @_Ninjaws_ have you ever read the book "Was That Really Me?: How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality"? I think reading it may be a bit clarifying for you. The book explains how both dominant and inferior functions manifest in each type, which I found very interesting.


There's a somewhat digested version of the IXFP section right here on PerC:
http://personalitycafe.com/isfp-articles/76773-recognizing-inferior-function-isfps.html

I believe that most types have this in their "articles" section under the Keirsey forums.


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## selena87 (Aug 15, 2014)

This thread has gone on for ages and the OP has received so much info and perspectives, yet he still took so long to make a simple judgement for himself. Ninjaws just kept asking for more and more info, and can't determine whether the source is reliable or not neither.. :laughing:

Now that I think about it... is this the inferior Te showing? It seems my earlier impression was wrong, he is a Fi dom


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

sicksadworlds said:


> @Ninjaws have you ever read the book "Was That Really Me?: How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality"? I think reading it may be a bit clarifying for you. The book explains how both dominant and inferior functions manifest in each type, which I found very interesting.


I have read this: http://personalitycafe.com/isfp-articles/76773-recognizing-inferior-function-isfps.html

Which I believe is from that book.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Ksara said:


> So you identify strongly with the Ji functions, you identify with Se, Ni and somewhat with Si and Fe?


From that information, yes.




> You do not identify with Ne or Te according to that list (nothing was highlighted for either)?


With Te, the text is focussed on stuff like "All the experts agree" and appeals to authority. I don't really care what the so called 'experts' think, I want to come to a conclusion myself

With Ne, I don't relate to the wanting to change things into things that are more interesting. While I might do this from time to time, it's not something that mainly on my mind.

I see the environment more as an obstacle course. I have a goal, and to get to that goal I have to move around all kinds of obstacles (people, vehicles, houses, etc). This is why I get annoyed when I'm walking the dog and someone is coming right at me. I know that their dog and Simba (our dog) always play for a long time, which slows me down from getting to my destination (home).

In that situation I scan the surroundings for a path so that I can avoid contact with them.




> You identfy as an introvert?
> and you identfy as a feeler, most likely Fi?
> 
> This really that leaves Fi/Se or ISFP.
> ...


Yep, we also came to that conclusion. 
Thanks a lot for your help with this, I am in your debt.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

selena87 said:


> This thread has gone on for ages and the OP has received so much info and perspectives, yet he still took so long to make a simple judgement for himself. Ninjaws just kept asking for more and more info, and can't determine whether the source is reliable or not neither.. :laughing:
> 
> Now that I think about it... is this the inferior Te showing? It seems my earlier impression was wrong, he is a Fi dom












If I take more than an hour to know what I want for dinner, you know finding out the type is going to be an endeavour.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

Oh boy this is going to take a long time..
@penny lane, @Silveresque, @the401, @ScarlettHayden, @Old Intern, @selena87, @Pilot, @TelepathicGoose, @CourtneyJD, @Ksara, @jkp, @Thalassa, @ferroequinologist, @FreeBeer, @sicksadworlds

Thank you all for your assistance! The Fi is dominant and the type is ISFP! 



@firedell, Could you please lock this thread? I have the answer to my question.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Thread closed, due to OP's request.


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