# Steve Jobs INTJ argument



## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Before you read this, understand that I do acknowledge that people can play other types to further their interests if they feel demanded to do so. No hard feelings ENTJ,ENTP, or INTP or even other types who believe he was on theirs...


*Adam Lashinsky's Apple*




Apple was run like a dictatorship where the only creativity permitted was from the top down and there was supposedly a sense of fear and loyalty induced. This trait strike me as being a bit more ENTJs, but that would be understandable since we share the same functions with them. I don't think ENTPs would be comfortable, in general, with a seemingly closed minded structure that's intolerant of openness to ideas brought by others. Plus the top down perspective means that there is no fear nor remorse in manipulating and controlling people to this perspective since it may seem limiting to them. I think Fi breeds more arrogance than Fe due to not being in touch with other's emotions. 

Do Ne's like to own their ideas? else that seems like Ni
When steve returned to apple he cut all the crap down and simply demanded projects he controlled to get the green light. Doesn't this sound like Ni guys, Ni is subjective and like to control its ideas but of course what keeps us rational is Te which forces the perception to be remain in touch with reality through its "objective" nature. From what I understand, NTPs like to control judgement Ti but not their ideas which are extroverted in nature, hence the "objective" tag. From my understanding Ni likes to force weird ideas to conform in reality (Te). What I sense is that Apple are very pragmatic yet they are detached from reality in their ideas (hence the NFs of NTs stereotype). My argument is a bit convoluted here but my point is that Ni controls its ideas but not its judgement (he didn't seem to have Ti).

Plus other misconceptions:
INTJs can develop charisma using their Ni since the end goal of it is to be manipulative, something I believe steve was especially considering how secretive he was. Are NTPs that manipulative to a point were they would feel great about getting their way round running a dictatorship.

*


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## Master of Visibility (Nov 5, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Are NTPs that manipulative to a point were they would feel great about getting their way round running a dictatorship.


Are NTJs that manipulative that they would feel great about running a dictatorship?

Did someone claim that Jobs was an XNTP? I have not seen anyone do so, but believe what you wish. 

In the end, he was just a person. A genius in his own right, but you will never know for sure if he did in fact share the same 4 letters as you.


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

I know it's mainstream here to type people based on cognitive functions but I believe we are constantly changing. So it can be used as a tool, but won't always be correct since it's not stagnant. We learn to use the other cognitive processes as well. I do know INTJ's with charisma (used to get what they want), but isn't that what ENTJ's do as well? Another guy that is often thought of as an ENTJ is Bill Gates, but I see him as an INTJ.

I'll play though, I see inferior Fi in Jobs, especially in the way you described his dictator work ethic, so sticking with ENTJ for him.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Master of Visibility said:


> Are NTJs that manipulative that they would feel great about running a dictatorship?
> 
> Did someone claim that Jobs was an XNTP? I have not seen anyone do so, but believe what you wish.
> 
> In the end, he was just a person. A genius in his own right, but you will never know for sure if he did in fact share the same 4 letters as you.


You did read my little intro didn't you? Any ways, I think he was just an average bloke who could dream and force his visions through;reality distortion seems to be a trait I view as personally sharing with him, but he could have been any type as I said


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> I know it's mainstream here to type people based on cognitive functions but I believe we are constantly changing. So it can be used as a tool, but won't always be correct since it's not stagnant. We learn to use the other cognitive processes as well. I do know INTJ's with charisma (used to get what they want), but isn't that what ENTJ's do as well? Another guy that is often thought of as an ENTJ is Bill Gates, but I see him as an INTJ.
> 
> I'll play though, I see inferior Fi in Jobs, especially in the way you described his dictator work ethic, so sticking with ENTJ for him.


But he was introverted and a dreamer, you introverts can learn to play the Extroverted card? BTW bill gates is an INTP and so is Mark Zuckerberg, they are just balanced but you can tell how they've got Ne due to their lax attitude. Te tends to have more confidence and agression from what I've seen


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## SweetPickles (Mar 19, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> But he was introverted and a dreamer, you introverts can learn to play the Extroverted card? BTW bill gates is an INTP and so is Mark Zuckerberg, they are just balanced but you can tell how they've got Ne due to their lax attitude. Te tends to have more confidence and agression from what I've seen


Have you read this? Bill Gates isn't exactly lax http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1120657-1,00.html


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## Master of Visibility (Nov 5, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> You did read my little intro didn't you? Any ways, I think he was just an average bloke who could dream and force his visions through;reality distortion seems to be a trait I view as personally sharing with him, but he could have been any type as I said


I did read it multiple times, it seems your wording caught me off guard(I read it wrong; my mistake). I do not believe that he was XNTP(in fact I don't understand him well enough to type); sorry, I just found this argument to fall under the "so what?" mentality.

While I can understand finding a similarity to someone, I find it silly that people try to fit them into pigeon holes that we ourselves usually find hard to fit into. Not implying that you did so.

I did not mean to offend or anything of the like.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MelanieM said:


> Have you read this? Bill Gates isn't exactly lax In Search of the Real Bill Gates - TIME


He's "balanced" cognitive functions wise if you know what I mean, his extroverted stereotype is a misconception that has been spread online.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> You did read my little intro didn't you? Any ways, I think he was just an average bloke who could dream and force his visions through;reality distortion seems to be a trait I view as personally sharing with him, but he could have been any type as I said


The problem isn't his reading comprehension skill--it's the fact that the evidence you put forth is flawed and uncompelling. Your use of stereotypes for ENTPs that aren't even true holds no water when presenting an argument. Furthermore, to say that an extraverted dominant user doesn't hold his or her ideas close to the chest is flat-out wrong. There are a multitude of reasons one might do such a thing, and most of them have fuck all to do with introversion and extraversion.

I would go through and pick apart your whole post to point you in the right direction, but the overall prognosis is that you need to study up on JCF more. This is a good place to start: Psychological Types - Wikisocion


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> The problem isn't his reading comprehension skill--it's the fact that the evidence you put forth is flawed and uncompelling. Your use of stereotypes for ENTPs that aren't even true holds no water when presenting an argument. Furthermore, to say that an extraverted dominant user doesn't hold his or her ideas close to the chest is flat-out wrong. There are a multitude of reasons one might do such a thing, and most of them have fuck all to do with introversion and extraversion.
> 
> I would go through and pick apart your whole post to point you in the right direction, but the overall prognosis is that you need to study up on JCF more. This is a good place to start: Psychological Types - Wikisocion


Stereotypes won't really hold for any type, won't they, plus no one can come up with an infallible analysis for any type. I'd read arguments for his claimed ENTP type and I thought I'd also issue my own, which I said can't in anyway be guaranteed to be right. Are you under the impression that INTJs can't be visionary or in general people of any type, that what I implied when I acknowledged it in the those first lines


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> The problem isn't his reading comprehension skill--it's the fact that the evidence you put forth is flawed and uncompelling. Your use of stereotypes for ENTPs that aren't even true holds no water when presenting an argument. Furthermore, to say that an extraverted dominant user doesn't hold his or her ideas close to the chest is flat-out wrong. There are a multitude of reasons one might do such a thing, and most of them have fuck all to do with introversion and extraversion.
> 
> I would go through and pick apart your whole post to point you in the right direction, but the overall prognosis is that you need to study up on JCF more. This is a good place to start: Psychological Types - Wikisocion


Yes, I read that page before and I meant to tell you about the flaw in analysis you came up with in your "Ni vs Ne" article, but when I wrote it I couldn't post private messages (to you) since I was still a newbie on the forums.


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## Fourplay (Jun 27, 2012)

I'll never accept Steve Jobs being an INTJ.

I hate all ENTP famous personalities besides Steve Jobs. It'd suck to be a part of a clan full of clowns/comedians 



I believe ENTPs are really misunderstood tho. Everything that Steve Jobs represents in so many facets represents the way I have lived my whole life. Where an INTJ would put the engineering team at the top, Job's hierarchy had the design team with Jony Ives as his second in command. Tell me a large technology company that has done that? Rare. And the only type that has that refined taste for aesthetics are ENTPs. His obsession with the internal architecture, making the inside motherboard and its internal hardware look as nice as the outside screams the way Si works in us.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Fourplay said:


> I'll never accept Steve Jobs being an INTJ.
> 
> I hate all ENTP famous personalities besides Steve Jobs. It'd suck to be a part of a clan full of clowns/comedians
> 
> ...


An INTJ would put the engineering team lead? seriously, I thought it was apparent that INTJs were the idealists (NFs of NTs), who spend as much time as possible fantasizing about the possibilities, but when it comes to implementation, we are rigid and practical. 

BTW, I would think that Fi was responsible for making the inside motherboard look as enticing; who the hell said Si was is more aesthetically creative than Fi. I thought everyone understood that Fi is having unrealistic fantasy ideas, but being fortunate to have Te making sure that its forced into reality in the best way possible. Jobs put the "sleep" button on the MAC because his Fi was unwilling to accept that death was the end. It created that fantasy aspect unbounded in reality (just as Fi does) that having a sleep button would make him feel good about not accepting the off button (death was just off). Fi seems to hold unrealistic values detached from the environment in any way possible (the feelings are subjective). 

Plus Steve Jobs was arrogant and very manipulative to a point were Wozniak says that his only skill is "Marketing". Steve Jobs' (Te) enjoyed manipulating people only to serve his ends and that something I've herd that NTPs find uncomfortable and rigid. Perfection ideas and arrogance appear to be INTJ traits since we are interested in the glory of making thing HAPPEN (with perfection), instead of dwelling on possibilities then some how wondering whether those possibilities will be implemented. 

STEVE THE RIGID MAN (Te)
If you recall apple was rigid about allowing the app store to be open in any way shape or form. And also in 2010, they were arrogant about flash and considered it useless by then. But of course, they changed the app store opening it up since his Te, appeared to alter his Ni vision through acknowledging that the original plan didn't make enough sense in reality. Plus with flash, he said that if the market spoke with its wallet then they would be forced to consider, this to me seems as if its acknowledging that he is waiting for Te, to reconfirm that he was wrong.


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## lib (Sep 18, 2010)

MelanieM said:


> I'll play though, I see inferior Fi in Jobs, especially in the way you described his dictator work ethic, so sticking with ENTJ for him.





Fourplay said:


> I'll never accept Steve Jobs being an INTJ.
> 
> I hate all ENTP famous personalities besides Steve Jobs. It'd suck to be a part of a clan full of clowns/comedians


Steve Jobs' friend in 8th grade, the one introducing him to Steve Wozniak, calls him an introvert (5:07):


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

lib said:


> Steve Jobs' friend in 8th grade, the one introducing him to Steve Wozniak, calls him an introvert (5:07):


mate the link doesn't work


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## Fourplay (Jun 27, 2012)

lib said:


> Steve Jobs' friend in 8th grade, the one introducing him to Steve Wozniak, calls him an introvert (5:07):


ENTPs are one of the most introverted extroverts.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Watch Steve Jobs - One Last Thing online - Watch Movies Online, Full Movies, Download

Here is the working link, his child hood friend fenandez describes him as introverted and intellectual
(again its at 5.07)


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Fourplay said:


> ENTPs are one of the most introverted extroverts.


Last time I read that it said ENFJs were like that? those are silly stereotypes any type can seem introverted or extroverted. It's clearly his childhood friend that admits this. You can't really make that sh*t up, being introverted doesn't mean inferior social skills. Plus now I totally get why he liked to put on his visionary emerge. It was just for the sake of manipulating the environment (people) unto his will.


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## Fourplay (Jun 27, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> Last time I read that it said ENFJs were like that? those are silly stereotypes any type can seem introverted or extroverted. It's clearly his childhood friend that admits this. You can't really make that sh*t up, being introverted doesn't mean inferior social skills. Plus now I totally get why he liked to put on his visionary emerge. It was just for the sake of manipulating the environment (people) unto his will.


What are you saying Steve Jobs is an INTJ? Unlikely for sure.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Fourplay said:


> What are you saying Steve Jobs is an INTJ? Unlikely for sure.


"Introverted and intellectual" straight from the horse's mouth mate? He did play a great ENTP though in his presentations which were rehearsed, controlled and done excellently.

Denial is the first step to admitting uncomfortable knowledge, I reckon when you dial it in & use your Ti it may make sense. I mean apple was run like a dictatorship, was secretive (mastermind stereotype)


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## Fourplay (Jun 27, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> "Introverted and intellectual" straight from the horse's mouth mate? He did play a great ENTP though in his presentations which were rehearsed, controlled and done excellently.
> 
> Denial is the first step to admitting uncomfortable knowledge, I reckon when you dial it in & use your Ti it may make sense. I mean apple was run like a dictatorship, was secretive (mastermind stereotype)


I am not going to argue here he could be an ENTJ, but its nonsense you'd think he is an INTJ. Complete nonsense.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Fourplay said:


> I am not going to argue here he could be an ENTJ, but its nonsense you'd think he is an INTJ. Complete nonsense.


What ever floats your boat?


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## jhoro115 (Jul 14, 2012)

Honestly, I've seen Steve Jobs been typed a little bit of everything, from ENFP to ISTP. At first I thought ENTJ, then I read he was ENFP, then I saw Celebrity Types type him ISTP *shrug*


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Zhoro Zhekov said:


> Honestly, I've seen Steve Jobs been typed a little bit of everything, from ENFP to ISTP. At first I thought ENTJ, then I read he was ENFP, then I saw Celebrity Types type him ISTP *shrug*


Are you fan or just developed interest studying him? The guy wasn't honest and was very secretive which really beats me.


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## jhoro115 (Jul 14, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> Are you fan or just developed interest studying him? The guy wasn't honest and was very secretive which really beats me.


Not really a fan, just wanted to give some input from what I've read on the internet. For example, here's an extract from Personality Junkie which gives a short reason why he might've been an ENXP:

"When operating in Ne mode, ENFPs tend to be oblivious to details. They focus on abstract ideas and the big picture rather than details or minutia. However, when engrossed in a project, ENFPs can become highly perfectionistic and obsessive over details. As N-dominants, it can be difficult for them to accept anything less than perfection when it comes to the physical embodiment (S) of their ideals (N). Walt Disney and Steve Jobs, both of whom were ENFPs, exemplified this N-S perfectionism."


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## Extraverted Delusion (Oct 23, 2011)

Fourplay said:


> ENTPs are one of the most introverted extroverts.


And significantly introverted at a young age. This point is important since they're late bloomers. The type of conversation an ENTP might conjure in his adult days may be answered with "you're gay bro" in elementary -- driving them into introversion and not understanding conformity. Abstraction at a young age is usually seen as stupidity.


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## Extraverted Delusion (Oct 23, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> "Introverted and intellectual" straight from the horse's mouth mate? He did play a great ENTP though in his presentations which were rehearsed, controlled and done excellently.
> 
> Denial is the first step to admitting uncomfortable knowledge, I reckon when you dial it in & use your Ti it may make sense. I mean apple was run like a dictatorship, was secretive (mastermind stereotype)


If you're going to hold a potential NT's personal account so linearly, I'd be wary of his tert or inferior sensing in assisting with the recall memory. Considering he's reflecting about something from over 40 years ago, the definition of "introverted" could have actually meant that Jobs shared common interests and sat in a social category similar to his. A nerd, basically. All nerds are to some extent "introverted", especially when asked to elaborate on concrete topics that they seemingly fail to do well with at a young age.

Jobs was by no means an "introvert". His focus on the core design of the first Apple computer was not quite as technical but rather ideological and his charismatic, salesmanlike nature was the magic pixie dust that Wozniak's devices flourished from. In some accounts of his teen and young adult life, Jobs and Wozniak were seen as two contrasting personas that shared similar interests, and approached computers from different angles.

What exactly is it that makes you think Steve Jobs is an INTJ? You are aware that Jobs delegated a lot of tasks in his restructuring of Apple and shuffled the order of business around to be self-sustaining rather than Steve-sustaining?


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Extraverted Delusion said:


> What exactly is it that makes you think Steve Jobs is an INTJ? You are aware that Jobs delegated a lot of tasks in his restructuring of Apple and shuffled the order of business around to be self-sustaining rather than Steve-sustaining?


The more I read into the whole MBTI, the more I realise that people aren't stereotypes and will simply not fit into a nice easy model. 

I don't know what "INTJ" would want to be burdened with 24/7 responsibility, self-sustaining is always preferred since the burden of uncertainty and having to keep tweaking a system is stressful.


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## Extraverted Delusion (Oct 23, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> The more I read into the whole MBTI, the more I realise that people aren't stereotypes and will simply not fit into a nice easy model.
> 
> *I don't know what "INTJ" would want to be burdened with 24/7 responsibility, self-sustaining is always preferred since the burden of uncertainty and having to keep tweaking a system is stressful.*


I think I can make this efficient for you and cut it down to three letters.

CEO.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Extraverted Delusion said:


> I think I can make this efficient for you and cut it down to three letters.
> 
> CEO.


Again I phrased that wrongly, as a CEO you'd want to make sure you have a general working system in the nitty gritty departments you wouldn't want to touch. Its the macro management dictatorship.

Are you coming from the stereotype type that introverts don't lead, lack social skills? Unlike your INTP cousins we are said to be accustomed to leadership though of course unlike our ENTJ cousins we will only do it if we see a clear reason to. ENTJs only beat us statistically due to their need to just dominate whatever scene they've been given (that's why most of them aren't here, the ENTJ forum is kind of dead). 

The bottom line is that people simply can't be put into stereotypical models, personal dynamics are were a person is. Their cognitive function are just tools they prefer to use, balanced folks (those with all 4 developed functions) tend to be more illusive.


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## Ozymandias (May 6, 2011)

I just watched the whole video and I think I can come up with some valuable insight based on my previous experience.

When I was younger there is not doubt that I was introverted. I was shy around people, not outspoken in any way, and had a great need to seclude myself to tinker with my gadgets and read my books.

Over time I've acquired more social skills and have a greater facility in communicating with others. I prefer interaction with others over staying in (however there is a time and place for that in my schedule). Needless to say, I am now preferably an extrovert.

We cannot treat our cognitive functions like unwavering abilities that one is stuck with his/her whole life. They are skills that we can acquire and learn to build on. If someone like Steve in his case has a life changing experience in India and takes up a whole new philosophy of life; is it not possible for him to develop different preferences and use them to accomplish his newly defined goals?

After the video I had the impression that Steve was an opportunist and made good use of his Ne. He was also however characterised many times throughout as a visionary Ni. I think it's safe to say that Steve was very much intuitive. He demonstrated very abstract speech patters in the way he spoke and he always seemed to have a knack for knowing what to say to entice people to believe what he was saying. The fact of the matter is, Steve is an extrovert through and through. He even made Bill gates ENTJ seem like a little introvert beside him. 

That being said, we can narrow his lead function down to 2 assuming that he is in fact an intuitive person, Te or Ne.
Because there is so much compelling evidence of him being both extremely creative with extroverted intuition as well as being able to visualize and predict future states and outcomes which are reminiscent of introverted intuition.

I wouldn't hesitate to classify Steve Jobs as both ENTP and ENTJ. Perhaps this is the answer that everyone is looking for. Maybe to accomplish the things that he did, it is important to make use of a multitude of cognitive functions in order to outperform the rest.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Stereotypes won't really hold for any type, won't they, plus no one can come up with an infallible analysis for any type. I'd read arguments for his claimed ENTP type and I thought I'd also issue my own, which I said can't in anyway be guaranteed to be right. Are you under the impression that INTJs can't be visionary or in general people of any type, that what I implied when I acknowledged it in the those first lines


No I am not under that impression. If I were, I would be seriously delusional. I am simply saying that you need to examine the way he went about his different interactions and processes of thinking in order to type him. I cannot say for sure whether or not he was an ENTP, but I am very certain that he was Ne dominant. My reasoning behind this is because I have seen many instances in studying him where he displayed a blatant objectivity in perceiving and a subjectivity in his understanding of what he perceived.

It would also be worth noting when he was forced out of Apple, he spent quite some time in a depressed state, moping and feeling as though the world hated him. He reflected on the past and how everything that he worked for did not matter in the end because nobody wanted him to be a part of it anymore. This is emblematic of a severe Si grip episode for ENTPs. He has even stated as much. I can't remember the exact quote or where it came from, but later, when he returned to Apple, he said something to the effect of, "We can't sit here worrying about yesterday, so let's go and invent tomorrow."


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Again I phrased that wrongly, as a CEO you'd want to make sure you have a general working system in the nitty gritty departments you wouldn't want to touch. Its the macro management dictatorship.


But he did micromanage everything. EVERYTHING. From the ad campaigns to the shape of windows in the operating system. He had his hand in everything.


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## CColeSV07 (Jul 14, 2012)

I would say it's a big possibility that he's INTJ. Now, I'm only participating in this thread because of a wild coincidence I just came across. I wanted to hear a speech from Steve Jobs tonight, and I came across this video:

*[Skip to 0:48 and pause]*







This quote caught my eye because it was only _*TWO*_ *DAYS** AGO* that I said almost the _exact same thing_ when describing the creativity of Ni and how I use it:




> Originally Posted by *lolthevoidlol*
> _
> I'm wondering if the pattern finding of Ni not only sees what exists but is also creative? Or creativity its own thing?
> _
> ...






MegaTuxRacer said:


> But he did micromanage everything. EVERYTHING. From the ad campaigns to the shape of windows in the operating system. He had his hand in everything.


I do the same with my business. It's my passion for innovation that drives me to tweak little things here and there, mostly through all of the universal principles I've gathered and been drawn to through Ni.

Oh, and socially? Outside of my home you would most definitely wonder if I'm ENTP _or_ ENTJ.. but honestly, [screw] the labels -> I can guarantee that cognitive functions aren't as black and white as we think.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> No I am not under that impression. If I were, I would be seriously delusional. I am simply saying that you need to examine the way he went about his different interactions and processes of thinking in order to type him. I cannot say for sure whether or not he was an ENTP, but I am very certain that he was Ne dominant. My reasoning behind this is because I have seen many instances in studying him where he displayed a blatant objectivity in perceiving and a subjectivity in his understanding of what he perceived.
> 
> It would also be worth noting when he was forced out of Apple, he spent quite some time in a depressed state, moping and feeling as though the world hated him. He reflected on the past and how everything that he worked for did not matter in the end because nobody wanted him to be a part of it anymore. This is emblematic of a severe Si grip episode for ENTPs. He has even stated as much. I can't remember the exact quote or where it came from, but later, when he returned to Apple, he said something to the effect of, "We can't sit here worrying about yesterday, so let's go and invent tomorrow."


That that perceived objectivity and subjectivity made me mistype this ENTP guy for an INTJ (*theraminestrees* on youtube struck me as an INTJ till I actually asked him, it was a total surprise that he was an ENTP); I had related to him as an INTJ totally. I see what you describe as making Te observably focus on the facts though the perceived subjectivity was more from the doubt that Ni is entirely right. Though I totally respect that he could have been any type since there are lots holes in the guy and the illusion he put up was nothing sort of magic. 

The Si perspective is a good point, though I also interpreted that as Fi breaking down since all that source of confidence had vanished (I've gone through depression myself its an unhealthy episode). I thought that feeling of depression and rejection was the grip of Fi and Se were there is that perceived antagonism of all his experiences with everyone. That poor memory could also be seen in the Fi/Se relationship were there is a poor grasp of reality. But overall point taken, you could see jobs depression in either of the two examples below (it's not fully completed but it's worth a read).

the Form of the Inferior - ENPs
The Form of the Inferior - INJs


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Apple Computers is the physical representation of NeTiFeSi.

I'll be brief:

Ne - uniqueness, creative possibilities
Ti - single, elegant solution
Fe - Apple devices are designed to "play well" with your other devices
Si - All Apple devices share a similar, comforting design.

All things considered, I think it's pretty obvious that Jobs was Ne dom, if not definitely an ENTP.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> Apple Computers is the physical representation of NeTiFeSi.
> 
> I'll be brief:
> 
> ...


Apple the INTJ

Ni - ingenious, uniqueness, never been seen before, random 
Te - pragmatic (dictatorship apathy) and realistic; Guy Kawasaki "it's ok to be crappy but be unique"
Fi - Passion and the perfectionist, the idealist that makes things happen due to Te being above, 
Se- Awaken the senses, pleasure seeking


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

You have to be kidding me if you think it's Te instead of Ti or Fi instead of Fe.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> Apple Computers is the physical representation of NeTiFeSi.
> 
> I'll be brief:
> 
> ...


Have you seen this presentation buy Guy Kawasaki ? Nothing short of genius, it's all about getting to the point and not wasting time, seems like Te efficiency, plus the long rehearsals that's suppose to make it perfect. But anyway that would be just nonsensical rumbling. The is an equal possibility that he couldn't have been any type, he persona isn't really clear. But is it a natural Ne/Ti thing to get to the point with maximum efficiency and endless rehearsals? (Even though that's stereotypically Te behaviour it's not without doubt that you guys could learn to mimic it via Fe, life experiences can teach you)


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> You have to be kidding me if you think it's Te instead of Ti or Fi instead of Fe.


I'm really surprised by how Te Fi is often misunderstood are you big into researching Jobs and Apple? Have you seen lashinksy's take on apple?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

CColeSV07 said:


> I do the same with my business. It's my passion for innovation that drives me to tweak little things here and there, mostly through all of the universal principles I've gathered and been drawn to through Ni.
> 
> Oh, and socially? Outside of my home you would most definitely wonder if I'm ENTP _or_ ENTJ.. but honestly, [screw] the labels -> I can guarantee that cognitive functions aren't as black and white as we think.


I was responding to his point about Steve Jobs having a macromanagement style. I wasn't saying that INTJs are incapable of micromanagement.



Boolean11 said:


> That that perceived objectivity and subjectivity made me mistype this ENTP guy for an INTJ (*theraminestrees* on youtube struck me as an INTJ till I actually asked him, it was a total surprise that he was an ENTP); I had related to him as an INTJ totally. I see what you describe as making Te observably focus on the facts though the perceived subjectivity was more from the doubt that Ni is entirely right. Though I totally respect that he could have been any type since there are lots holes in the guy and the illusion he put up was nothing sort of magic.
> 
> The Si perspective is a good point, though I also interpreted that as Fi breaking down since all that source of confidence had vanished (I've gone through depression myself its an unhealthy episode). I thought that feeling of depression and rejection was the grip of Fi and Se were there is that perceived antagonism of all his experiences with everyone. That poor memory could also be seen in the Fi/Se relationship were there is a poor grasp of reality. But overall point taken, you could see jobs depression in either of the two examples below (it's not fully completed but it's worth a read).
> 
> ...


I simply disagree. I don't know how much you know about Steve Jobs other than watching things on YouTube, but if you read his biography, you will notice that his behavior more well aligns to an Ne dominant in the grip of Si. I have never heard of an Ni dominant acting the way he did when in the grip of Se.



Boolean11 said:


> Have you seen this presentation buy Guy Kawasaki ? Nothing short of genius, it's all about getting to the point and not wasting time, seems like Te efficiency, plus the long rehearsals that's suppose to make it perfect. But anyway that would be just nonsensical rumbling. The is an equal possibility that he couldn't have been any type, he persona isn't really clear. But is it a natural Ne/Ti thing to get to the point with maximum efficiency and endless rehearsals? (Even though that's stereotypically Te behaviour it's not without doubt that you guys could learn to mimic it via Fe, life experiences can teach you)


Yes, it can be an Ne/Ti thing. If an ENTP believes in what he or she is doing enough, the ENTP will go to painstaking efforts to perfect everything about that thing. That can be said about any type.

The mistake you're making is associating efficiency with the Ni/Te axis, but that axis does not have exclusive rights to that. If someone is throwing irrelevant information at me, I get frustrated and impatient. The question is, is that information objectively irrelevant to the subjective framework or subjectively irrelevant to the objective framework?


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> I'm really surprised by how Te Fi is often misunderstood are you big into researching Jobs and Apple? Have you seen lashinksy's take on apple?


I've read enough and seen enough of Jobs and Apple to know that I see Ti and Fe. And while other people's take on Jobs and Apple are nice, I'm not interested in trying to type a dead person through the lens of another person. I'd rather take the objective reality available, and the way Apple operates indicates NeTiFe, definitely. There are plenty of ways that Apple doesn't maximize efficiency or eliminate the unnecessary. Are solid aluminum unibodies cut from a single sheet necessary? No, but it is elegant and useful. The time Apple takes to make sure that the user experience is all that it can be and nothing that it shouldn't indicates to me an interest in group harmony. Fe.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

gingertonic said:


> I've read enough and seen enough of Jobs and Apple to know that I see Ti and Fe. And while other people's take on Jobs and Apple are nice, I'm not interested in trying to type a dead person through the lens of another person. I'd rather take the objective reality available, and the way Apple operates indicates NeTiFe, definitely. There are plenty of ways that Apple doesn't maximize efficiency or eliminate the unnecessary. Are solid aluminum unibodies cut from a single sheet necessary? No, but it is elegant and useful. The time Apple takes to make sure that the user experience is all that it can be and nothing that it shouldn't indicates to me an interest in group harmony. Fe.


I saw that as being realistic with what you got, that's the "be crappy but innovative", it is apparent that perfection can never be guaranteed but things have to as good as they possibly can. It was pretty much common sense what Guy Said. And yes of course you are right that a dead person is difficult to type and the fact that he was very dishonest, makes it difficult to note what was his natural behaviour and what wasn't.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> ...
> 
> I simply disagree. I don't know how much you know about Steve Jobs other than watching things on YouTube, but if you read his biography, you will notice that his behavior more well aligns to an Ne dominant in the grip of Si. I have never heard of an Ni dominant acting the way he did when in the grip of Se.


I've done a lot of research but I could never buy the book since I'm kind of cheap, I'm a student. What was that behaviour explicitly? I just want to understand what would stereotypically constitute as exclusive ENTP behaviour under those circumstances.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> I've done a lot of research but I could never buy the book since I'm kind of cheap, I'm a student. What was that behaviour explicitly? I just want to understand what would stereotypically constitute as exclusive ENTP behaviour under those circumstances.


He simply went to his mansion, reflected on the past, and moped. I do not claim that this is an ENTP or ENFP exclusive thing, but you have to remember that being in the grip of the inferior is when the inferior two functions sort of flip and predominate over the dominant two in certain respects. For an ENxP, this means looking like a really childish ISxJ. For an INxJ, this looks like a really childish ESxP. When it comes down to it, the inferior grip is an unhealthy indulgence in the inferior functions.

He doesn't talk about that period much in anything I have seen other than his biography. If you can, I would get ahold of it. It's very revealing. Your library probably has it.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> He simply went to his mansion, reflected on the past, and moped. I do not claim that this is an ENTP or ENFP exclusive thing, but you have to remember that being in the grip of the inferior is when the inferior two functions sort of flip and predominate over the dominant two in certain respects. For an ENxP, this means looking like a really childish ISxJ. For an INxJ, this looks like a really childish ESxP. When it comes down to it, the inferior grip is an unhealthy indulgence in the inferior functions.
> 
> He doesn't talk about that period much in anything I have seen other than his biography. If you can, I would get ahold of it. It's very revealing. Your library probably has it.


I've been depressed before I totally relate to that. 

Do you know anything about woz's possible type? I made a new thread over that under the that "what's my type" sub forum?


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> I've been depressed before I totally relate to that.
> 
> Do you know anything about woz's possible type? I made a new thread over that under the that "what's my type" sub forum?


I think he was an INTP.


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## Ozymandias (May 6, 2011)

More and more leaning towards ENTJ... 21.55


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Ozymandias said:


> More and more leaning towards ENTJ... 21.55


 @Ozymandias
After reading Walter Issacson book, I agree that his binary world view were things where either "SHIT" or "INSANELY GREAT", was something none other than blunt Te. Te doesn't really care what anybody thinks thus it can blast out binary judgement irrespective of what anybody else thinks. If it was Ti coldness, it would be some longer winded insult/expression carefully thought out without the gut instinct (which it quite seems). I would think that if an ENTP had been quick to judge, they would be using Fe where its coldness if masked by some kind of "emotion" instead of quick blunt criticisms lacking any emotional undertones. Plus his displays of affection appear to be more of Fi some what not adhering to an objective standard (like Fe), else he seemed to use quick emotionless Te viewpoint. 

Plus he's dictatorial tendencies and need for control and manipulation, invading everyone's space (justified by the reality distortion, potentially Fi based) seemed to reek more Se than Si. 

The guys could have been an ISTP though since he's attention to detail and more of "editor" type contribution to the business seems to point in that direction. Gates looked down on him for his clueless outlook on engineering, the guy could even write code, but he knew about aesthetics and experience.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Jobs was a strong Se type, particularly ISTP, the strong called pushiness reeks that.
Extroverted sensing - Wikisocion


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## Ozymandias (May 6, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Jobs was a strong Se type, particularly ISTP, the strong called pushiness reeks that.
> Extroverted sensing - Wikisocion


Resting Steve Job's personality type on the fact that he is pushy and then associating that with Se...You must excuse my response Boolean11 but that's just silly.

Te and Se acting together form a greater argument for his pushiness and desire for his employees to make deadlines. Both extroverted functions in this case act in conjunction and in Steve's case are particularly demonstrated during some of his many "in your face confrontations" with many of his employees. Se alone is a perceiving function. It gathers information from it's immediate environment while Te is the rational, we have a plan so lets follow it bulldozing function.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Ozymandias said:


> Resting Steve Job's personality type on the fact that he is pushy and then associating that with Se...You must excuse my response Boolean11 but that's just silly.
> 
> Te and Se acting together form a greater argument for his pushiness and desire for his employees to make deadlines. Both extroverted functions in this case act in conjunction and in Steve's case are particularly demonstrated during some of his many "in your face confrontations" with many of his employees. Se alone is a perceiving function. It gathers information from it's immediate environment while Te is the rational, we have a plan so lets follow it bulldozing function.


 @Ozymandias
I'm using this definition of the functions:

*Si vs. Ni: a focus on one's environment and how it's affecting one's physical state vs. a focus on a situation's development over time and other underlying meanings

Se vs. Ne: active acquisition, control, and organization of visible territory and objects vs. active search for and development of invisible potential and emerging situations

Fi vs. Ti: evaluation according to personal sentiments vs. evaluation according to impersonal laws (mercy vs. justice)

Fe vs. Te: evaluation according to the people/social element involved vs. evaluation according to efficiency, effectiveness or objective reasoning*


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

@Ozymandias

This is what Se means to you guys most likely. However one thing that has been strange is how Jobs was obsessed with tiny details being intimately in touch obsessively with the material experience he was trying to control and manipulate. I actually rule out Si since the focus Jobs had was more "objective" judging the sensations as they actually were instead of strange subjective aurora "focused". 


> ENTJ
> 6.  Extraverted SensingLIEs actively pursue their external goals, to the sacrifice of their immediate considerations of comfort, but regularly experience periods of procrastination where they need prodding, a strong push, or forceful support from others to continue onward in the direction they have chosen.
> LIEs admire people who do not back off from direct personal confrontations and who stand their ground; they aim at doing that and often succeed, but their stronger focus on  means that their resolution in this regard is often weakened by thoughts of the possible negative consequences of such confrontations. Likewise, they admire, and try to emulate, persons who are resolute, even pushy towards others, when pursuing their goals. However, they are put off by persons who are overly aggressive and who seem to prefer to use verbal or physical aggression as a replacement of logical or ethical arguments, rather than as a support for them.
> The focus of LIEs on  and  means that a strong motivation in their actions is of achievement in the longer term, either of a material or professional nature, most typically financial, over more short-term considerations.





> ISTP
> 2.  Extraverted SensingLSIs prefer to apply their clear, logical thinking to forcibly affect how the real world is organized, rather than simply producing conjectures or thought exercises that have no material application. LSIs prefer to work with systems of "real" things — material assets, organizations, management, and production — and to perfect their structure and organization (). When they are certain they are right, LSIs can act decisively to enforce rules, and, if necessary, to punish violators, in order to protect the integrity of the system.
> LSIs handle high-pressure situations well and can maneuver skillfully around obstacles to achieve their goals. They cannot be intimidated easily by displays of force or aggression, but follow closely the balance of power and make sure they are in the best position.


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## Augustus777 (Sep 4, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> The problem isn't his reading comprehension skill--it's the fact that the evidence you put forth is flawed and uncompelling. Your use of stereotypes for ENTPs that aren't even true holds no water when presenting an argument. Furthermore, to say that an extraverted dominant user doesn't hold his or her ideas close to the chest is flat-out wrong. There are a multitude of reasons one might do such a thing, and most of them have fuck all to do with introversion and extraversion.
> 
> I would go through and pick apart your whole post to point you in the right direction, but the overall prognosis is that you need to study up on JCF more. This is a good place to start: Psychological Types - Wikisocion




This. Steve Jobs was highly creative and hated people who couldn't keep up or adapt with his train of thought. This strikes me as ENTP, although other types can also share this. Steve also liked to have total control over his projects and products. Now this falls more into other categories, but I as an ENTP always feel the need to perfect everything I pursue and create. It has to be bloody perfect in my minds eye, and if anyone screws with it or insist it can't be done I get beyond pissed. 

And of course, Steve manipulates others to his gains but in a way that clearly illustrates he understands others and their motivations very clearly. That is because he is primarily extroverted and can empathize with others (he just didn't are to be nice most of the time). Again, this seems to me to be an ENTP quality. Using both charisma and other tactics to get what we want.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Augustus777 said:


> This. Steve Jobs was highly creative and hated people who couldn't keep up or adapt with his train of thought. This strikes me as ENTP, although other types can also share this. Steve also liked to have total control over his projects and products. Now this falls more into other categories, but I as an ENTP always feel the need to perfect everything I pursue and create. It has to be bloody perfect in my minds eye, and if anyone screws with it or insist it can't be done I get beyond pissed.
> 
> And of course, Steve manipulates others to his gains but in a way that clearly illustrates he understands others and their motivations very clearly. That is because he is primarily extroverted and can empathize with others (he just didn't are to be nice most of the time). Again, this seems to me to be an ENTP quality. Using both charisma and other tactics to get what we want.


I guess you are still new around here, you seem to be big on stereotypes. Rationalizing him to any type with a vague understanding of the cognitive process is quite easy. 

Celebrity Type has him classed as an ISTPs, at first I was like WTF, but the more I research the cognitive functions and the more I learn about him, the harder it becomes to determine a precast mould for him.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

STEVE JOBS ISTP:



INTJellectual said:


> But the person above you is an ISTP and Steve Jobs is ENTP
> 
> 
> 
> I never met an ENFP in real life, but I bet, you guys would be an INTJ's bestfriend


After looking at Jobs closely, I started to doubt as to whether the guy was actually an ENTP since he seemed to have introverted tendencies. But the more I dug the hole, the more I became speculative that he was an introverted or a "Te Ni" type especially when one of his childhood friends described him as an introvert. (you can see my thought process in that Steve Jobs INTJ thread). Jobs was really rigid, controlling and inflexible. Apple was run like a dictatorship, that is not a very ENTP like character, so firm doubts were insert for the ENTP persona. 

The more I even read and watched the long detailed interviews, the more I became convinced that he was influenced more by the "subject", introverted (ENTPs are bouncy lively jumping from idea to idea unless when looking internally strongly). Plus his intuition is the one which striked me as "subjective". Anyways, after then finally deciding to read Walter Issacson's biography, getting into socionics and better knowledged about about Jung plus Celebrity type's weird ISTP typing. His type became even far more confusing to determine since it was just too strange, the guy had very odd mannerisms. But that lead me more to dismiss ENTP entirely and think that he may have been even some kind of NF as a random possibility. 

However after I began to dial things in I began to realise that Se and Ni was quite certain; the guy wanted control and domination plus when critiquing things from his sensing perspective (see SivsNi... below). it was evident that it was "Se" instead since he did not do his crituqe under a "lens" of focus. He just critiqued what was there simply, he wouldn't really tell you strongly "why" through implication that there was a subjective lens. Things either looked "shit" or where "insanely great" as there were presented to him. His intuition is what looked focused since when exploring uncharted territory, he always stayed attuned to the subject and not the object, he just didn't seem to respect the integrity of the object ("Ne"). 

But anyway, what broke the NT assumption in total was realising that he was a judger and surprisingly subjective as he had a subjective criteria put in place plus the sensing was strong and objective; Plus Se folks can easily be obnoxious and ruthlessly honest without looking at the intended consequences of their actions, they bias themselves against the present. Jobs simply didn't care that his "uber" rude behaviour had side effects; He complained more so about the tiny details, he was a total negativitist. His feelings were really badly handled and really looked like something of the inferior. The bottom line is that it is a really strange and complicated story with the guy.


*Si vs. Ni: a focus on one's environment and how it's affecting one's physical state vs. a focus on a situation's development over time and other underlying meanings

Se vs. Ne: active acquisition, control, and organization of visible territory and objects vs. active search for and development of invisible potential and emerging situations*


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

@boolean

I thought that this is my thread which was derailed by Steve Jobs argument.

OK. Explain this to your ENTP mates


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> @_bool_ean
> 
> I thought that this is my thread which was derailed by Steve Jobs argument.
> 
> OK. Explain this to your ENTP mates





INTJellectual said:


> Oh ok. But I always think he is an ENTP. Well, I have to research before giving any opinion.
> @_SoulScream_
> 
> +1 xD


listen to this:




Famous ISTPs - CelebrityTypes.com (too bad they haven't written an article explaining their decision yet)











Logical Intuitive Introtim - Wikisocion (NiTe)
Logical Sensing Introtim - Wikisocion (TiSe)
Logical Intuitive Extratim - Wikisocion (TeNi)
Intuitive Logical Extratim - Wikisocion (NeTi)

Plus the guy was just an editor whose job was just to control the vision, he had no technical skills of what so ever. Bill Gates an ENTJ, looked downed on him for not being able to write code, even simple code itself.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> He complained more so about the tiny details, he was a total negativitist. His feelings were really badly handled and really looked like something of the inferior. The bottom line is that it is a really strange and complicated story with the guy.


Yeah I can see where you're getting Se from complaining about the tiny details. Look up the Si grip. In ENTPs, it is characterized by an irrational and emotional focus on all of the tiny details of something and mopey and depressive behavior when engaged for an extended period of time.




> *Si vs. Ni: a focus on one's environment and how it's affecting one's physical state vs. a focus on a situation's development over time and other underlying meanings*


Try "a focus on subjectively relevant explicit details vs. a focus on subjectively relevant implicit connections" and you would be on the right track.



> *Se vs. Ne: active acquisition, control, and organization of visible territory and objects vs. active search for and development of invisible potential and emerging situations*


Try "active focus on the explicit as it exists in its original and entire form vs. active focus on possible events as they could exist in reality" and you would be on the right track.

Your definitions of the functions have implications that can move towards other functions.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> Yeah I can see where you're getting Se from complaining about the tiny details. Look up the Si grip. In ENTPs, it is characterized by an irrational and emotional focus on all of the tiny details of something and mopey and depressive behavior when engaged for an extended period of time.



Jobs was rational and sensing in his criticisms, he was cold and brutal barely caring about the consequences of his obnoxious behavior. He could even control his "Fe". Plus jobs was not depressed and neither did he say he had torretes, he just blurted out things as they met his first. ISTPs are negavitivitists and they don't care about how that affects others, well in Jobs that was very explicit.




> Try "a focus on subjectively relevant explicit details vs. a focus on subjectively relevant implicit connections" and you would be on the right track.


Of course. 



> Try "active focus on the explicit as it exists in its original and entire form vs. active focus on possible events as they could exist in reality" and you would be on the right track.
> 
> Your definitions of the functions have implications that can move towards other functions.


That is plucked right out of socionics, its not my quote.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

MegaTuxRacer said:


> I wanted to see if there was something that made you more than an armchair expert other than paying for server hosting and running a website. You speak with a lot of agency, enough to call everyone here armchair experts. Where does that come from?


Steve Jobs never got a degree, whats the obsession with a piece of paper certificate. This stuff isn't a legit science and even if it were, only the arguments themselves would count, the level of education the originator has wouldn't even matter. I personally feel like university is not worth the price its like I'm paying to teach myself stuff I could have learnt myself.


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## nujabes (May 18, 2012)

Boolean11 said:


> Steve Jobs never got a degree, whats the obsession with a piece of paper certificate. This stuff isn't a legit science and even if it were, only the arguments themselves would count, the level of education the originator has wouldn't even matter. I personally feel like university is not worth the price its like I'm paying to teach myself stuff I could have learnt myself.


you didn't answer the question.

also, if you know you make so many errors when you type, why not correct them? it's a pain in the ass for the rest of us to try to decipher your horrendous typing.


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## Briguy (Nov 20, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Are you still on Keisey and MBTI's stereotypes about the types? Anyway after delving into this going beyond MBTI itself with socionics and Jung himself, I've learnt that the caricatures Myers used are really out of place and they severely distort Jung's original work over the types. If you decide to study socionics, which is more interesting with better substance in general, you'll see how the two author's interpretations differ with the stereotypes they create based on their own subjective understanding of Jung attempting to simplify his work. And the crucial thing you'll learn is that Myers totally ruined the functions when she decided to associate introverts with their auxiliary extroverted function which destroys everything really. INTJs are actually percievers whilst INTPs are judgers, its strange but true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You accuse me of relying on stereotypes to articulate my point, I, however, would like to bring into question the stereotypes you have brought up to defend your conclusions on this forum, for instance you rely on the INTJ Mastermind stereotype, and the stereotype that NTJs are dictators to make your point. I have watched the videos you have referenced, I have read Isaacson's book, along with several interviews over the years from magazines that profiled Jobs, I.e. Time, Business Weekly, Playboy et al. I weighed the evidence, you decided he was an INTJ and found evidence to support your hypothesis, I went out looking and found a conclusion, I am almost certain he is an XNTP. Getting back to your point, if I wanted to stereotype Jobs I could say he was an SP because he was an artistan, I could say he was an ENTP because he was a visionary, I could say he was a ESFP because he was a performer, these are stereotypes, none of which I did state, nor do I believe.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Briguy said:


> You accuse me of relying on stereotypes to articulate my point, I, however, would like to bring into question the stereotypes you have brought up to defend your conclusions on this forum, for instance you rely on the INTJ Mastermind stereotype, and the stereotype that NTJs are dictators to make your point. I have watched the videos you have referenced, I have read Isaacson's book, along with several interviews over the years from magazines that profiled Jobs, I.e. Time, Business Weekly, Playboy et al. I weighed the evidence, you decided he was an INTJ and found evidence to support your hypothesis, I went out looking and found a conclusion, I am almost certain he is an XNTP. Getting back to your point, if I wanted to stereotype Jobs I could say he was an SP because he was an artistan, I could say he was an ENTP because he was a visionary, I could say he was a ESFP because he was a performer, these are stereotypes, none of which I did state, nor do I believe.


If you read my post you'd see that I didn't really challenge your argument. Since you are naturally in love with the conception of guy you've built, based on your natural admiration, there isn't any room for argument here. After all its all up to you to determine your version of truth over the matter.

However if you are prepared to have an open exploration over MBTI and the cognitive functions as well as looking at Jobs objectively without/resisting trying to typecast a mold then it will become a great argument. Not the regular internet shite. If you want to preserve your idolized image of him that's fine anyway.


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## Briguy (Nov 20, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> If you read my post you'd see that I didn't really challenge your argument. Since you are naturally in love with the conception of guy you've built, based on your natural admiration, there isn't any room for argument here. After all its all up to you to determine your version of truth over the matter.
> 
> However if you are prepared to have an open exploration over MBTI and the cognitive functions as well as looking at Jobs objectively without/resisting trying to typecast a mold then it will become a great argument. Not the regular internet shite. If you want to preserve your idolized image of him that's fine anyway.


How does Steve Jobs being an INTJ change my image of him? I only care about the truth (Ti), if he's an ESFP then fine, I can only work from my own analysis, I would venture to guess the reason so many have a difficulty typing him is simply the chameleon characteristics of the INTP, I am, however, almost certain he is an INTP, that is based off of my analysis, I only ask that you are fair in yours, and at this point you seem to be accusing me of something that you are doing.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> Steve Jobs never got a degree, whats the obsession with a piece of paper certificate. This stuff isn't a legit science and even if it were, only the arguments themselves would count, the level of education the originator has wouldn't even matter. I personally feel like university is not worth the price its like I'm paying to teach myself stuff I could have learnt myself.


Not really the point of the question.


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## Boolean11 (Jun 11, 2012)

Briguy said:


> How does Steve Jobs being an INTJ change my image of him? I only care about the truth (Ti), if he's an ESFP then fine, I can only work from my own analysis, I would venture to guess the reason so many have a difficulty typing him is simply the chameleon characteristics of the INTP, I am, however, almost certain he is an INTP, that is based off of my analysis, I only ask that you are fair in yours, and at this point you seem to be accusing me of something that you are doing.


I guess you haven't been following the shifting thought process as the thread has been going along, through reasoning I shifted between various points of view, even going to the point of typing him as an ENTJ due to the general vibe he appeared to have a judgmental attitude as opposed to a perceiving attitude under a Jungian perspective. Judger types(Lead Ti, Te, Fe, Fi) generally appear to be a bit more on the close-minded since they exclude a lot more information, however on the upside they "process" a lot more information; On the other hand, perceiving types (Lead Ni, Ne, Si, Se) take in a lot more information but process a lot less as compared to judger types, and they appear to be slower and more indecisive especially to judging types. Jobs apparent quickness (this is "shit" or "insanely great") to appears to indicate a judging type far more so than a percieving type who's likely to toy with ideas more so before feeling as if they have to produce a conclusion. Percieving types only appear to cast quick judgemnts when they realise that the information they are percieving is a lot similar to the past information. MBTI crippled Jung when they messed up the judging types for introverts, plus a lot the function distortions they inserted along with their stereotypes (hence learning socionics makes things a lot clearer). 

The conclusion at that point was assigning him as either a lead "Te" or "Ti", a judgmental attitude appears to dominate his personality but the question as to whether its objective or subjective in orientation was the mystery. I leaned more towards "Te" but I was still unsatisfied with the facts, so I dug in some more; where the question became about asking whether the sensing or intuition drove the subject, did he objectify his sensing and subject intuition(NiSe) or subject his sensing and object the intuition(SiNe). This was really the hard part but realizing that he always greeted what was infront of him by quickly judging it as it is, I was inclined to lean more so towards "Se" since that is a lot more raw and direct as compared to "Ne" which looks beyond; plus has his sensing been "Si" what would have been expected is an odd subjective lens that went with his critique, but those where absent since the sensing was "objectified". Plus also when analyzing his intuition it appeared to the one driving the subject as oppose to being driven by the object since he always stressed with importance of focusing on the "vision", in a way vision drove the subject. "Ni" is put under a subject whilst "Ne" appears to have its integrity observed being taken from without. 

So as far as was concluded ENTJ appeared to be the most likely type. However when when deciding to closely analyse the judgmental attitude, something seemed a little bit strange with it since it was like a regular "object" orientated one. Instead it dawned on me that the slight weirdness it had was because his logic was coerced around "subject" and that threw the whole flirtation with Te orientation accepting that he may be driven more by the subject. Whilst threw the percieving functions into doubt, the Se Ni remain thus ending up with ISTP.

However I still think that without talking to loureign Powell or Reed Jobs (INFJ, I speculate since he is said to have inherited his "mother's kindness"), teaching them Jung's work properly, its difficult to come to a conclusive end.


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## Briguy (Nov 20, 2011)

Boolean11 said:


> I guess you haven't been following the shifting thought process as the thread has been going along, through reasoning I shifted between various points of view, even going to the point of typing him as an ENTJ due to the general vibe he appeared to have a judgmental attitude as opposed to a perceiving attitude under a Jungian perspective. Judger types(Lead Ti, Te, Fe, Fi) generally appear to be a bit more on the close-minded since they exclude a lot more information, however on the upside they "process" a lot more information; On the other hand, perceiving types (Lead Ni, Ne, Si, Se) take in a lot more information but process a lot less as compared to judger types, and they appear to be slower and more indecisive especially to judging types. Jobs apparent quickness (this is "shit" or "insanely great") to appears to indicate a judging type far more so than a percieving type who's likely to toy with ideas more so before feeling as if they have to produce a conclusion. Percieving types only appear to cast quick judgemnts when they realise that the information they are percieving is a lot similar to the past information. MBTI crippled Jung when they messed up the judging types for introverts, plus a lot the function distortions they inserted along with their stereotypes (hence learning socionics makes things a lot clearer).
> 
> The conclusion at that point was assigning him as either a lead "Te" or "Ti", a judgmental attitude appears to dominate his personality but the question as to whether its objective or subjective in orientation was the mystery. I leaned more towards "Te" but I was still unsatisfied with the facts, so I dug in some more; where the question became about asking whether the sensing or intuition drove the subject, did he objectify his sensing and subject intuition(NiSe) or subject his sensing and object the intuition(SiNe). This was really the hard part but realizing that he always greeted what was infront of him by quickly judging it as it is, I was inclined to lean more so towards "Se" since that is a lot more raw and direct as compared to "Ne" which looks beyond; plus has his sensing been "Si" what would have been expected is an odd subjective lens that went with his critique, but those where absent since the sensing was "objectified". Plus also when analyzing his intuition it appeared to the one driving the subject as oppose to being driven by the object since he always stressed with importance of focusing on the "vision", in a way vision drove the subject. "Ni" is put under a subject whilst "Ne" appears to have its integrity observed being taken from without.
> 
> ...












I enjoyed both of these vids from way back in the late 70's very early 80's.


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## DeductiveReasoner (Feb 25, 2011)

Steve Jobs was a visionary.
ENTPs are visionaries.

Therefore, Steve Jobs is an ENTP.

Deductive reasoning, bitchezzzz.



Note: I am being completey facetious. I am well aware of the fallacies in this argument.


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