# Computer Illiteracy as a Badge of Honor



## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

So working in IT, I encounter a lot of dumb things and IU've got to the point I've started a YouTube channel called Glorified Help Desk literally to talk about the dumb users and also dumb fellow IT workers. Well, is it me, or does it seem like computers and technology are the only tools of a job a person can plead complete ignorance too and even be proud of it? You wouldn't brag about not being able to do basic math, but people wear their computer illiteracy as a badge of honor:






Also, it seems like a lot of people just don't lack technology skills, but lack basic life skills:






What do you guys think?


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I think it's a highly unwise badge of honor.

In fact, to survive nowadays, it's important to learn the basics such as building a computer or at last knowing the nooks and crannies, coding, graphics design.. these are the essentials to reading/writing in a new form as the heavy reliance on the Internet has changed our lives for better or worse.

Technology as a format is the new universal language.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

strawberryLola said:


> In fact, to survive nowadays, it's important to learn the basics such as building a computer or at last knowing the nooks and crannies, coding, graphics design.. these are the essentials to reading/writing in a new form as the heavy reliance on the Internet has changed our lives for better or worse.


Can't figure out whether you are joking. Building computers and graphic design are not basic computer skills.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Actually, I'm quite serious.

Computers- we will have to face buying one eventually at the very least learn how to use one.. so understanding how one computer works over another just like understanding how a 6 cylinder verses 4 on vehicle is just as important. Though, a computer is less complex than a car.

Either way, you don't want to get ripped off, and articulating through words and non-verbally through graphics are two basic essentials of online communication.

As they say, keep up or get left behind is what I initially took out of this thread. It's not smart to boast about how one cannot learn how to read in order to pay bills. And with technology ever advancing so quickly, doesn't hurt to broaden one's horizons for survival, no?

Even kids are learning how to code at elementary school level.


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## 21st Century Marxist (Feb 28, 2017)

The worst case I've had to deal with was a girl who got so many toolbars installed into her browser that it was constantly crashing. I mean, you could expect this from an older person, but from a 16 y/o girl?

And thanks for the second video, I've laughed a lot during the part about the ports and pounding the hole :laughing:


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

21st Century Marxist said:


> The worst case I've had to deal with was a girl who got so many toolbars installed into her browser that it was constantly crashing. I mean, you could expect this from an older person, but from a 16 y/o girl?
> 
> And thanks for the second video, I've laughed a lot during the part about the ports and pounding the hole :laughing:


Why is the girl not using a portable drive to keep some backup files?


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

Uh I don't see how this is any different from people bragging about how they can't cook or how their home is always so messy? I don't really understand it but some people think it's cute to suck at life or something. I'm not sure about computers though. I've never seen people wear that as a badge of honor.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

strawberryLola said:


> Actually, I'm quite serious.


...it seems that you started to address my post, then started talking about something totally irrelevant to what I'd said _and_ what you'd said...confused...


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## 21st Century Marxist (Feb 28, 2017)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> Why is the girl not using a portable drive to keep some backup files?


This was probably a joke I didn't get. Because otherwise I have no idea how exactly would backups of her files help her remove the toolbars.

Or you meant that she'd have to do a restore from a backup after that happened. Which doesn't always solve the issue anyways.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

We are going through a big evolution in the past few decades, from not having computers nor smartphones to the common use of devices and internet. So many people, specially older ones, are not very computer literate. But the younger ones are usually better at it, and the next generations are probably not going to have this problem.

But yeah, IT support can get you auite frustrated sometimes.  I'm a programmer so I don't have to deal with computer illiterate people lol, but my husband who is a sys admin in his company has to deal with stupid stuffs like people asking why the computer is not working when they have a bag on the keyboard or even not plugged into electricity. His superior who is supposed to share his responsibilities knows nothing about network and infrastructure too. Sometimes it's surprising how totally incompetent people are in the positions they are in. One thing is not knowing much about computers but not required to work with them, anither is but not knowing the minimum at all.

But hopefully the next generations will become computer literates. Although it can be hard for the older people who now has to learn about computers in order to adapt and secure a job in their last decade or years of work before retirement. It's not easy to learn new things in such ages and compete with younger ones and the past years has been a fast paced evolution in technology. Even those working in IT might have to put extra effort to adapt. Your COBOL skills might be sought after years ago but nowadays you might need to learn something else and even compete with young people. Those freshly graduated ready to be enslaved as interns for example.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

bentHnau said:


> Can't figure out whether you are joking. Building computers and graphic design are not basic computer skills.


Literacy sounds like it could be a spectrum. But everywhere I have heard, email, Internet and Microsoft Word is not enough to be considered computer literate. I'm sure a lot of people couldn't identify what a piece of hardware does or that a "network drive" is not actually a hard drive or what an adminstator account is. None of this is difficult stuff. Programming isn't really as hard as it sounds, but including that is somehow the upper-range of being considered literate with computers. There is a great deal that the average person doesn't understand or care about.
I disagree with the other user that it is essential to learn graphics design and even coding for the average person. Probably should want some Eli the Computer Guy, he has a lot of opinions. One of them he argued was that we don't need more people to do code. I don't remember his reasons. But from what is starting out in my class, coding and programming is clerical work. Thinking and planning are what makes someone valuable.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

strawberryLola said:


> Actually, I'm quite serious.
> 
> Computers- we will have to face buying one eventually at the very least learn how to use one.. so understanding how one computer works over another just like understanding how a 6 cylinder verses 4 on vehicle is just as important. Though, a computer is less complex than a car.
> 
> ...


Doing coding or graphic design isn't something basic. I'm guessing you never actually did tech support, but the people who can code or do graphic design are usually a little more advanced as users. These people probably won't be ripped off when buying a computer. In the car analogy, people who can code can at least do basic maintenance on their cars such as change oil, do a tune up, or do something basic. They would have a basic understanding of how a car works and probably wouldn't get ripped off. 

I'm literally talking about people who think rebooting a computer is turning the monitor on and off or don't even know the computer needs to be plugged in to work. They don't even know how to save a file or if they've saved a file don't even know where they saved it nor how to search for that file. They will brag, "Oh yeah I know nothing about these computers" and then expect you to do everything for them. Try to fix older people you know's computers and you will find this out quick.



Blue Ribbon said:


> Uh I don't see how this is any different from people bragging about how they can't cook or how their home is always so messy? I don't really understand it but some people think it's cute to suck at life or something. I'm not sure about computers though. I've never seen people wear that as a badge of honor.


You have probably never worked in tech support then. The thing is people can still function not being able to cook (they buy premade food) or clean (the walk around the mess). To literally do an office job, you need to be able to use a computer. Think of if a chef bragged they couldn't cook or a janitor bragged they couldn't clean. That's the equivalent of not knowing how to use a computer in a modern office is like.



AriesLilith said:


> But yeah, IT support can get you auite frustrated sometimes.  I'm a programmer so I don't have to deal with computer illiterate people lol, but my husband who is a sys admin in his company has to deal with stupid stuffs like people asking why the computer is not working when they have a bag on the keyboard or even not plugged into electricity. His superior who is supposed to share his responsibilities knows nothing about network and infrastructure too. Sometimes it's surprising how totally incompetent people are in the positions they are in. One thing is not knowing much about computers but not required to work with them, anither is but not knowing the minimum at all.


Haha sounds like he has a non-technical technical manager:


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

PowerShell said:


> Haha sounds like he has a non-technical technical manager:


Yeah unfortunately his manager knows nothing at all, even thought he is supposed to. He has a degree from some private university (not sure if finished) but somehow he barely worked with technical stuffs and now is clueless on anything. When he first came in he tried to assert his power over my husband, who never cared about it but only to get things done. It was frustrating, but soon the manager acknowledged his skills and importance (my husband is the only one supporting all the stuffs) so he stopped with power displays.

I really don't know how can some people still be hired or stay somewhere when people actually do notice their incompetence. Worse is when they don't even work hard nor bother. But then there are many dysfunctional places - their boss keeps his manager because he is his clown and laughs at his stupid jokes. My husband on the other hand is the typical IT guy, gets things done and deals with no sh*t or boot licking.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> Doing coding or graphic design isn't something basic. I'm guessing you never actually did tech support, but the people who can code or do graphic design are usually a little more advanced as users. These people probably won't be ripped off when buying a computer. In the car analogy, people who can code can at least do basic maintenance on their cars such as change oil, do a tune up, or do something basic. They would have a basic understanding of how a car works and probably wouldn't get ripped off.
> 
> I'm literally talking about people who think rebooting a computer is turning the monitor on and off or don't even know the computer needs to be plugged in to work. They don't even know how to save a file or if they've saved a file don't even know where they saved it nor how to search for that file. They will brag, "Oh yeah I know nothing about these computers" and then expect you to do everything for them. Try to fix older people you know's computers and you will find this out quick.
> 
> ...


I'm forgetting that where I live life is uber competitive, and doesn't represent a vast majority of the world.

When I see elementary kids already learning how to code and building websites, starting businesses at 19, animating in 3-d graphics at 16, it does make one think what one needs to prepare just to stay afloat even just to find a temp agency job.

This is a new era. And bragging about computer illiteracy isn't one of those wisest decisions to survive out here.


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## Hypaspist (Feb 11, 2012)

Some solid points in both videos. I agree with giving those who don't work with computers leeway, but there's a sizable amount of people that should know computers that don't. The one and only tech support job I did was cool because I got to deal with IT people on a regular basis. Now that I'm back in an academic environment and in an upper level course, I found it appalling that I had to sit through a class and listen as they couldn't figure out pie charts over the course of 30 minutes. Yes, 3-0 minutes.

Part of the problem I think is that the education system is a bit flawed. Pretty much everyone has to go through basic computer courses, and the ones I went through considered setting up a Google Drive account and the cloud "advanced". That stuff came over half way through the semester, but the majority of the course was taken up by hand-holding through Excel. Couldn't even use alternative methods to enter an equation for example, because the software would block you from pressing the "wrong" button or entering an "incorrect" formula. Web security made it into an upper level computer course, but was absent from the intro course. Maybe this is where it starts?


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

AriesLilith said:


> I really don't know how can some people still be hired or stay somewhere when people actually do notice their incompetence. Worse is when they don't even work hard nor bother. But then there are many dysfunctional places - their boss keeps his manager because he is his clown and laughs at his stupid jokes. My husband on the other hand is the typical IT guy, gets things done and deals with no sh*t or boot licking.


Because the typical IT people are working miracles and the right people don't see this and think everything is working correctly.



strawberryLola said:


> I'm forgetting that where I live life is uber competitive, and doesn't represent a vast majority of the world.
> 
> When I see elementary kids already learning how to code and building websites, starting businesses at 19, animating in 3-d graphics at 16, it does make one think what one needs to prepare just to stay afloat even just to find a temp agency job.
> 
> This is a new era. And bragging about computer illiteracy isn't one of those wisest decisions to survive out here.



Where do you live?


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Fact, women in general are bad at computers because it is pure logic and does not have any social, feelings or communication aside from 0s and 1s in binary. Nekminit, social media is invented via using computers as it's host and all of a sudden women all use the computer but fail to understand that it is the application they are familiar with, not the computer so billions of help desk calls are made which drives I.T guys nuts.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> Fact, women in general are bad at computers because it is pure logic and does not have any social, feelings or communication aside from 0s and 1s in binary. Nekminit, social media is invented via using computers as it's host and all of a sudden women all use the computer but fail to understand that it is the application they are familiar with, not the computer so billions of help desk calls are made which drives I.T guys nuts.


Are you sure about that?

The Forgotten Female Programmers Who Created Modern Tech : All Tech Considered : NPR


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

ENTJudgement said:


> Fact, women in general are bad at computers because it is pure logic and does not have any social, feelings or communication aside from 0s and 1s in binary. Nekminit, social media is invented via using computers as it's host and all of a sudden women all use the computer but fail to understand that it is the application they are familiar with, not the computer so billions of help desk calls are made which drives I.T guys nuts.


Lolz where do guys like you spawn from. XD


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

AriesLilith said:


> Lolz where do guys like you spawn from. XD


I'm guessing the whole "pick up artist" lot. It's funny because I was told my attitude is toxic because of some of my videos on YouTube but I'm just pointing out how dumb users in general can be. I also made a video on how you need to be patient with anyone willing to learn. The thing is, we need to be as open as possible with anyone looking to embrace technology and making a valid effort towards it. If you want a truly toxic attitude, it's what he said above.


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## Blue Ribbon (Sep 4, 2016)

ENTJudgement said:


> Fact, women in general are bad at computers because it is pure logic and does not have any social, feelings or communication aside from 0s and 1s in binary. Nekminit, social media is invented via using computers as it's host and all of a sudden women all use the computer but fail to understand that it is the application they are familiar with, not the computer so billions of help desk calls are made which drives I.T guys nuts.


Lol not all women are ESFJs. And not all ESFJs are like this either. I may not be an expert, but I can code in two different coding languages and I work with microcontrollers and embedded systems on a regular basis. I also know plenty of women who are as good or better than I am and some of them are SFJs. Looks like we can thrive in an environment that's not social, feeling or communication related? 

Also I would argue that IT isn't entirely devoid of social, feeling and communication related things.


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## BearRun (Mar 3, 2017)

I don't think I'm exactly computer literate. I was born in '96 and I grew up with computers. I was ten when my Mom got the first iPhone. I don't know how to set up a home network. I can connect my phone and computer to wifi. I learned coding in elementary school and it was exciting as a dyslexic I found it's much easier than reading. It was a small confidence boost. But like learning a second language, I didn't continue using it, I don't remember how to code. I have helped build a computer and an engine but that doesn't leave me feeling competent that I "know" this stuff. I can do some trouble shooting but I used to just ask my Dad if I couldn't fix it. I'm at college and if I can't fix the problem, I call the help desk. I know more than nothing but I don't think I'm knowledgeable. 

I don't know where people get this idea that just because we grew up using computers we're going to be amazing with computers. I love sports and I'm not that interested in computers. I know the difference between the network drive and a hard drive. I am aware of security and look at the reviews before deciding what to buy. But I'd have a hard time teaching someone else about it or explaining it sufficiently to them. I mix up specifications on computers, so buying my laptop was a lot of reading up and once bought, promptly forgetting what it means until the next time I need to buy a computer. I'll have to look it up again. 

I think many older people seem to think it's all or none and get overwhelmed. I taught my grandmother some things just by saying, I didn't need to understand computers before I started using them. She presumed that I knew how to hack and code. I remember being a little kid and my parents denying me access to computers by unplugging them. It didn't take long to figure out that conundrum. I figured out the importance of security because I guessed passwords to get into administration to change my account settings as a kid. I think everyone's tried that. If a child can break in, your security is lax. 

I see computer literacy like reading literacy in that there are grade levels. I estimate my computer literacy at about a grade 9 or grade 10 level. My grandmother is at about a grade 3 level. My Dad is around a college level now but my Mom is around where I am. I think it would help if people could see it as being on a spectrum instead of a YES/NO.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

We can complain about older people now, but one day we're going to be calling our grandchildren to set up the gene splicer for the personalized pharmaceutical fruit tree, explaining that we didn't learn genetic engineering in preschool, and then the irony won't hit us but only because we didn't know how to set up the one that cures alzheimers. 
This is common enough for elderly that I fully expect it to be the case for most of us at some point, if society doesn't come up with any technology that will leave us behind that just means something went seriously wrong with society.

What I am actually a bit more worried about is younger people who are *less* technologically savvy than my own generation. Maybe its because we've gotten so much better with interfaces and reliability, but you see a lot of kids today who have no idea what goes in their phone or tablet or even basic things like how memory storage works, I've even seen some kids who won't use a PC at all because "Everyone uses a ipad/iphones", except that doesn't include professional software environments, and even when those do get ported, the reality is that the simplicity and user friendly interfaces they are used too aren't going to be there for them when it comes to more complicated work environments, you can't engineer a bridge within the framework of slide left or slide right.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

BearRun said:


> I don't think I'm exactly computer literate. I was born in '96 and I grew up with computers. I was ten when my Mom got the first iPhone. I don't know how to set up a home network. I can connect my phone and computer to wifi.


That's way more advanced than the users I'm talking about. Right now I'm on call and am spending my Saturday instructing a user how to navigate a file share to find their files.



Tropes said:


> We can complain about older people now, but one day we're going to be calling our grandchildren to set up the gene splicer for the personalized pharmaceutical fruit tree, explaining that we didn't learn genetic engineering in preschool, and then the irony won't hit us but only because we didn't know how to set up the one that cures alzheimers.
> This is common enough for elderly that I fully expect it to be the case for most of us at some point, if society doesn't come up with any technology that will leave us behind that just means something went seriously wrong with society.
> 
> What I am actually a bit more worried about is younger people who are *less* technologically savvy than my own generation. Maybe its because we've gotten so much better with interfaces and reliability, but you see a lot of kids today who have no idea what goes in their phone or pads or even basic things like how memory storage works, I've even seen some kids who won't use a PC at all because "Everyone uses a pad/iphones", except that doesn't include professional software environments, and even when those do get ported, the reality is that the simplicity and user friendly interfaces they are used too aren't going to be there for them when it comes to more complicated work environments, you can't engineer a bridge within the framework of slide left or slide right.


But are they less tech saavy? Yes they don't have to mess around with the innards of the computer to make basic things to work, but they possess a lot of critical thinking skills and technical knowhow to solve their own problems. I know we get way less calls from younger people than older people and, even with their calls, it's way easier to help them.


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## BearRun (Mar 3, 2017)

Tropes said:


> We can complain about older people now, but one day we're going to be calling our grandchildren to set up the gene splicer for the personalized pharmaceutical fruit tree, explaining that we didn't learn genetic engineering in preschool, and then the irony won't hit us but only because we didn't know how to set up the one that cures alzheimers.
> This is common enough for elderly that I fully expect it to be the case for most of us at some point, if society doesn't come up with any technology that will leave us behind that just means something went seriously wrong with society.
> 
> What I am actually a bit more worried about is younger people who are *less* technologically savvy than my own generation. Maybe its because we've gotten so much better with interfaces and reliability, but you see a lot of kids today who have no idea what goes in their phone or tablet or even basic things like how memory storage works, I've even seen some kids who won't use a PC at all because "Everyone uses a ipad/iphones", except that doesn't include professional software environments, and even when those do get ported, the reality is that the simplicity and user friendly interfaces they are used too aren't going to be there for them when it comes to more complicated work environments, you can't engineer a bridge within the framework of slide left or slide right.


I wonder how today's adult education (computer literacy specifically) measures up against adult education (basic literacy) of the early 20th century with the advent of public schooling. Did most illiterate adults get left behind or could most of them afford these classes and access them? Is it easier or harder to access this education now?


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

BearRun said:


> I wonder how today's adult education (computer literacy specifically) measures up against adult education (basic literacy) of the early 20th century with the advent of public schooling. Did most illiterate adults get left behind or could most of them afford these classes and access them? Is it easier or harder to access this education now?


I think most got left behind. Sure they may have been able to go basic jobs, but those jobs don't pay well and, because no skill is really required, the competition is fierce.


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## BearRun (Mar 3, 2017)

PowerShell said:


> I think most got left behind. Sure they may have been able to go basic jobs, but those jobs don't pay well and, because no skill is really required, the competition is fierce.


Makes me wonder about the 1930s. The suicide rate was at it's highest in recorded history. What was the illiteracy rate was among the suicides during that economy? The birth rate dropped without improved access to birth control. I'm guessing many just weren't healthy enough to successfully reproduce. I wonder how many people who fell behind during the great depression were part of the adult population that missed out on access to public education.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

BearRun said:


> Makes me wonder about the 1930s. The suicide rate was at it's highest in recorded history. What was the illiteracy rate was among the suicides during that economy? The birth rate dropped without improved access to birth control. I'm guessing many just weren't healthy enough to successfully reproduce. I wonder how many people who fell behind during the great depression were part of the adult population that missed out on access to public education.


Not sure but with the Trump administration, you might find out again.


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## BearRun (Mar 3, 2017)

PowerShell said:


> Not sure but with the Trump administration, you might find out again.


Well shit... That's a scary thought.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Tropes said:


> What I am actually a bit more worried about is younger people who are *less* technologically savvy than my own generation. Maybe its because we've gotten so much better with interfaces and reliability, but you see a lot of kids today who have no idea what goes in their phone or tablet or even basic things like how memory storage works, I've even seen some kids who won't use a PC at all because "Everyone uses a ipad/iphones", except that doesn't include professional software environments, and even when those do get ported, the reality is that the simplicity and user friendly interfaces they are used too aren't going to be there for them when it comes to more complicated work environments, you can't engineer a bridge within the framework of slide left or slide right.





PowerShell said:


> But are they less tech saavy? Yes they don't have to mess around with the innards of the computer to make basic things to work, but they possess a lot of critical thinking skills and technical knowhow to solve their own problems. I know we get way less calls from younger people than older people and, even with their calls, it's way easier to help them.


I don't think there ever was a time when a lot of people were savvy anything. A lot of people never need to build bridges. I bet my mother was tought at school how to use a slide rule and got some correct results with it without ever knowing or stopping to think what she was doing and why it was working, nowadays she uses computers the same way. Hell, I use calculators the same way, I just punch some keys and hope it works.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jamaia said:


> I don't think there ever was a time when a lot of people were savvy anything. A lot of people never need to build bridges. I bet my mother was tought at school how to use a slide rule and got some correct results with it without ever knowing or stopping to think what she was doing and why it was working, nowadays she uses computers the same way. Hell, I use calculators the same way, I just punch some keys and hope it works.


That's not even close to what I'm saying. If your job required you to do some bridge building, you better know how to do bridge building. If you job requires you to drive a vehicle, you better know how to drive a vehicle. Basically a modern office worker uses computers to do their jobs. They need to know how to use it. In terms of punching keys, you still need to know how to punch the right keys to input the numbers you want.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

PowerShell said:


> That's not even close to what I'm saying. If your job required you to do some bridge building, you better know how to do bridge building. If you job requires you to drive a vehicle, you better know how to drive a vehicle. Basically a modern office worker uses computers to do their jobs. They need to know how to use it. In terms of punching keys, you still need to know how to punch the right keys to input the numbers you want.


Someone who doesn't care how the thing works is not going to get a job as a bridge builder. It doesn't matter whether someone like that knows what they're doing beyond swiping left or right. Most people don't need to know beyond that, most people don't need to be building bridges, we shouldn't be too worried if they don't understand much. As long as they can still get some job and the bridge builders can be made to learn more, we're good.

Me and punching the calculator, it was bit of an overstatement. I just mostly use it for the bare minimum and miss out on almost all of it's fancy features... like... memory. I just write things down instead. So I use it without punching, but it's very ineffective use. I should probably watch some youtube videos on "how to use your calculator".


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## Wiz (Apr 8, 2014)

Not in IT support exactly. But I frequently have to aid some ancient dinosaur with setting up their e-mail accounts, create google accounts for webmaster tools, etc and basic basic stuff like that. 

It's infuriating. I've had to learn all of this, and it couldn't be more easy to grasp technological concepts (and I'm not even particularly interested in IT). Sadly, the only thing I've ever gained from investing time and energy learning this shit is.. nothing other than continous torment. I'm always the person that get asked, and am equally expected to have both time and enthusiasm when updating their Java or whatever amoeba level task I'm presented with. 

And what makes it thousand times worse (as OP says), people take pride in it. Exploiting other peoples time because they "didn't feel like learning something new today.. or the next day.. or any other day".

On a more nuanced note: I do however like to help people that made an effort themselves and are generous enough to ask for help with a sense of humility, instead of expecting "tech guy" to show up and save the day like they have some divine right that excuses them from ever having to learn anything. 

Also, one shouldn't think that a 30 minute phone call was needed to explain how Microsoft Word works for every single person on planet earth except them, but apparently i guess writing a e-mail was just too time saving. No wonder this generation is suicidal.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

IKn reply to the OP: I've seen people being ignorant of math or even correct spelling wear it as a badge of honor. It's definitely not only about IT. I think it happens any time someone has decided that learning a particular skill is hard and would not make their life any better. Any attempts to try and show them the opposite is true will inevitably lead to them being even more militant on the subject. 

It's partly a problem of our current world where everyone is supposed to know everything, partly an age thing, where the working population is split among people who grew up with computers and the people who started to learn about them in their thirties and partly a problem of people hiding their shame about not knowing something in an agressive attitude towards those who remind them of that fact. 

The only real solution is to stay patient and try to help them in a way that makes them think they solved the problem themselves. It's a lot more work and it will make them feel like they're more competent than you, but in the long run it allows them to start developing their own skills because they feel like they have the power to influence what happens to them. 
Otherwise... only alternative is to suck it up and keep on venting on forums like this. People who are in IT will understand that you're only trying to get things off your chest.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jamaia said:


> Someone who doesn't care how the thing works is not going to get a job as a bridge builder. It doesn't matter whether someone like that knows what they're doing beyond swiping left or right. Most people don't need to know beyond that, most people don't need to be building bridges, we shouldn't be too worried if they don't understand much. As long as they can still get some job and the bridge builders can be made to learn more, we're good.



If every job required some sort of bridge building and someone couldn't build a bridge at a minimum level of bridge building required to competently do that job, they're incompetent at their job. Your analogy is flawed because only a few people actually need to know how to build a bridge as part of their job. 99.9% of other jobs require no bridge building skills. Now with computers in a modern office, it's the opposite. 99.9% of office jobs require some degree of computer skills. Going back to you calculator example, what if you didn't even know which buttons to push? Obviously, there's some skill required in knowing how to push the buttons correctly. You can't just slam your fist on a calculator and it magically gives you the right answer.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

PowerShell said:


> Your analogy is flawed


:shocked:


Dear Sir,

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean... Ok, the analogy is that you're the bridge builder! Office people are the swipers! They swipe the bridge you've built without thinking how it is that they can walk in the air! (Lol that's not how far I intended to take the analogy but see, it works.)



> If every job required some sort of bridge building and someone couldn't build a bridge at a minimum level of bridge building required to competently do that job, they're incompetent at their job. Your analogy is flawed because only a few people actually need to know how to build a bridge as part of their job. 99.9% of other jobs require no bridge building skills. Now with computers in a modern office, it's the opposite. 99.9% of office jobs require some degree of computer skills. Going back to you calculator example, what if you didn't even know which buttons to push? Obviously, there's some skill required in knowing how to push the buttons correctly. You can't just slam your fist on a calculator and it magically gives you the right answer.


 Exactly, some degree of computer skills; enough that they know how to turn the thing on, open the program they need in their everyday use, use it for what they need to do, have someone they can ask for help if they don't know how to, turn off the computer at the end of the day. Just like how people have learned by rote to operate every other mechanical/technical thing in the past and will operate in the future. Just like my mother used the scale slid to get an answer she didn't understand, just like she uses a computer in the office every day, just like I use my calculator, just like most people use their cars, we just don't care how it works as long as we can do the basic things we need to do with it and move on. Like someone could go in a kitchen, notice there is a fridge and a microwave and a dumpster bin and they'd be happy with that, that's all they need to get by and they'd never even notice there's more things they could be doing in that kitchen. It's ineffective use of resources but it's not wrong per se.

That's why there needs to be tech support and user friendliness and complete packages sold so that you can just buy what you need, turn it on, and use it without having to learn anything. People will pay for that. Why are you bitching about people needing you? Isn't it great that you have a job? Also the user friendliness and wireless technologies will mask the basic functions even better, people will be thinking the machines run on magic, so it's not going to get easier for you.

Young people are seemingly better at it because more of them are bridge builders to an extent and even the ones that aren't have from the beginning been exposed to so many different kinds of digital environments they have a more abstract working model in their head about what kind of features they can expect to encounter. They're not as easily thrown off by a symbol or text or color or layout being different, and they have some grasp of what kind of dimensions there can be hidden, not just linear top-down paths. Plus the brain just is more adjustable if something new comes up, they may even be more brave to try different things on their own. That might be also because a lot of things are fool proof these days, you can't easily break them by trying different things. 

I have an elderly aunt who has taught programming in the 80's. She understands the basics of coding and she has used computer at her work as a teacher up until she recently retired. Still she needs to have her son set up her computer, set up her accounts and show her how to use them, because to her navigating the user interfaces is light years away from the basic coding she did. To her there are infinite options to how something might work, so she has no idea how to get going. And she also knows by experience there are things she could be doing wrong with the wires or with the computer itself that might lead to real damage, plus the unknown threats of cyberspace, so she'd rather not try. Still she's not retarded even though it sometimes sounds like it. 

Or another not quite yet retired person, a CEO who has learned how to use many appliances but may not understand if you tell him to open a web browser, he has to be told to look at the bottom of the screen and click the blue e. Because that's how he uses the computer, he follows the physical paths that have worked before, and if it doesn't some time work there's 0 things he can do other than try again with force and then call for help, of course also 0 patience to even attempt anything else on his own because he has no idea where the problem might be. Repeating a procedure thousand times makes you better at that procedure, but a lot of the times it doesn't help you in dealing with a change. 

Also, people do have all sorts of badges of honor. Basic Maths skills is totally one. A lot of times it's a very strong defense mechanism.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

It's because we use it as a way to distance ourselves from the humiliation.

Believe it or not, people also wear math illiteracy as badge of honor.

"You really don't know what 7*6 is?"
"Haha! I don't know math, man. That's not my area."

As someone who writes well, I encounter this a lot with those who cannot write well, too. 

it's really subtle and clever dissonance. 

For instance, let's just take computers again. You help someone who made a dumb mistake with their computer. That person keeps to themselves that they are horrible with computers, so now you get to judge them, and that person gets to internalize and assume you're judging them, which then you pick up on and the judging intensifies, because we all meet the expectation placed on us.

But that goes both ways. By that person vocalizing that he sucks at computers, then he is able to disarm the embarrassment. Even if you were to still judge him, because he already placed into words his failures, he can ignore the subtleties of your judgement and move on. 

Being proud in the lack of skill usually is in reference to the opposite skill. Being proud that one is a poor student, allows that person to then be proud in the opposite that their good at, as in star athlete. "Yeah man, I'm not that good at school. But hand me a football and I'm the best." 

Someone who sucks at computers may express pride in another field--as if they're connected.

Also, it creates groups. We all want to belong to a group, even if the topic that binds us can be seemingly negative. "We're misfits. We don't care about being popular kids." They're bonding over not being popular.

"I don't know computers well. I grew up mastering the practical knowledge of the world, just like my other friends in the older generation." 

---

TL;DR
*
Embracing failure can be, in a way, avoiding admitting failure to oneself.* "Haha, man I don't even know how to change a tire!" By vocalizing it, it becomes less internal, which means now I don't have to actually think about the fact that I don't know how to change a tire. Think of overweight individuals that constantly bring up that their overweight. It's dissonance.
*
We desire to belong, and crafting our likes and dislikes around others can foster that.* Sharing in a love for video games and anything nerdy, and a hate for anything sports, would lead that person to probably not consider engaging in any sports. For some, being computer literate is nerdy or geeky, and, like sports, is an area they share a dislike in within their group, and would not consider engaging in it.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jamaia said:


> :shocked:
> Just because you don't understand doesn't mean... Ok, the analogy is that you're the bridge builder! Office people are the swipers! They swipe the bridge you've built without thinking how it is that they can walk in the air! (Lol that's not how far I intended to take the analogy but see, it works.)


I guess I see your analogy, but it still doesn't align. If you said people who use a bridge vs. people who build bridges, that would be a better analogy. With that, you still need to know you're walking onto a bridge and have basic skills to cross it and not fall into the river. Even the non-bridge builders who use the bridge need to have a basic understanding of what the bridge does and why they use it in the first place. They may not have had to build it, but they still need to use it.



> That's why there needs to be tech support and user friendliness and complete packages sold so that you can just buy what you need, turn it on, and use it without having to learn anything. People will pay for that. Why are you bitching about people needing you? Isn't it great that you have a job?


To tell you the truth, no I'm not happy I have a "job" due to stupid users. I'm actually a Systems\Network Administrator. My skills are way higher than that. I make the stuff on the backend run. Now when my non-technical manager insists I do help desk and instruct people to do basic things, I'm neglecting the backend. Yeah it might look good on the physical end of things but it literally took a 12 year old core switch where I work that failed and brought down the whole network for my boss to wake up and realize we need to replace a bunch of old equipment we've neglected. Now I have literally 3-4 months on the road to replace this equipment that would have been replaced if we were given proper time to do it. Also, if a user is not able to do basic stuff on the computer, they are no productive in their jobs. They're also tying up tech support resources. This is a double lose for a company. There's only so many tech resources and using them to literally do computer 101 doesn't move a company forward.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Well the analogy started with someone else saying experience with iPad isn't going to help much with something like CAD, that was the core of it. I said most people will be fine with just the iPad because they don't need to be building bridges. The bridge builder knows how the stuff that the iPad user uses actually works, the swiper gets to swipe without thinking how it works because there are people who have created the stuff for them. Then the physical analogy building a bridge (CAD) or swiping (iPad) requires... people focused on the bridge and others sweeping the bridge... so you have to imagine there that... to swipe is the same as to sweep. Well the gesture is similar. Ok it's not perfect but it was nice while it lasted. Thanks for playing. 



PowerShell said:


> To tell you the truth, no I'm not happy I have a "job" due to stupid users. I'm actually a Systems\Network Administrator. My skills are way higher than that. I make the stuff on the backend run. Now when my non-technical manager insists I do help desk and instruct people to do basic things, I'm neglecting the backend. Yeah it might look good on the physical end of things but it literally took a 12 year old core switch where I work that failed and brought down the whole network for my boss to wake up and realize we need to replace a bunch of old equipment we've neglected. Now I have literally 3-4 months on the road to replace this equipment that would have been replaced if we were given proper time to do it. Also, if a user is not able to do basic stuff on the computer, they are no productive in their jobs. They're also tying up tech support resources. This is a double lose for a company. There's only so many tech resources and using them to literally do computer 101 doesn't move a company forward.


Ok, but someone else will be happy there's a niche for them to make use of their expertise, a niche that emerged from people having limited resources and the demands on them rising due to technological advances. That's not a bad thing. The people who have a bad attitude about their skills are like that to protect their ego. It's not about IT or computers, even when the highest tech was horses in front of a cart there were people who had no idea what they're doing and who blamed everyone else and the horse for their own failings, and people who knew how to handle horses couldn't understand how this ass can be so clueless. Sometimes the people with skills were in a position to knock the ass down a few notches, a lot of times not.

What you say of the company is probably all true. But if the problem is that you are frustrated because of inefficient management, it's not the fault of the office staff. They probably have shitty management too wasting resources, for not putting them on computing 101 courses and/or hiring incompetent people and/or burdening them with unnecessary work so they don't have the time to learn what they really should be learning... so they just call for help. Or... You're saying they can't use the bridge, but what if their boss thinks they're using the bridge just fine, that this is all that is needed for their job? What if there are no better office workers available or better managers for that matter? It seems like that is the case if they're not indeed fired for being stupid, and if that is the case, then your assessment of them is objectively wrong. I laughed at the square peg round hole thing though . Maybe take one of those toys with you next time and let the person play with it and explain that hooking the computer up is just the same, it might relieve their fears.

You know you can't just arbitrarily request people be better. It would be a great solution to any problem if people could just become better, but it's not possible. If you're in a position to control how the business is run, then you can make changes as you best see fit and maybe find a way to get more skilled workers. Still, if you're not the boss, the problem comes back to you, maybe it's up to you to let the more important people know that there's inefficiency and problem with productivity. You can't change the reality of limited resources. So the problem is not how stupid everyone else is, but what you are asked to do with your limited time. If you're so highly skilled why are you at a position or job that feels like a waste and gets you frustrated. Is it because there are no better positions available? Oh. So it's not a waste then? You are actually dependent on the stupid people? You're pretend-taking responsibility of things you're not responsible for, it's making you frustrated and you're complaining about other people just like most people in the history of humans working together.

**

Also in one video you talk about acknowledgement and confirmation. If there's a history of things happening with the user out of the loop, then it's going to reinforce the general notion that it is a black hole, impossible for the user to gauge at all. Instead if every time they get an experience where they've personally noticed something is wrong and it is followed through and they are kept informed/involved, they learn a tiny bit of the unknown thing and they built a relationship with what first seemed like a black hole.


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## Ghosties (Sep 7, 2014)

I work in a call center, and our company has a website that makes looking for certain information much more easily obtainable than calling and asking us. 

If I had a dollar for every time I said "if you go online--"
"I ain't got no computer! I'm 80 years old, I served in Vietnam, and I ain't never touched no computer and I ain't gonna"

...I would have a significant pay raise.

I don't get where this pride in ignorance comes from, truthfully, but most of these older people are also Trump supporters who think they're more intelligent for going against the "status quo" so...they think they're smart for not expanding their horizons?
It's an oxymoron centered mindset.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jamaia said:


> Also in one video you talk about acknowledgement and confirmation. If there's a history of things happening with the user out of the loop, then it's going to reinforce the general notion that it is a black hole, impossible for the user to gauge at all. Instead if every time they get an experience where they've personally noticed something is wrong and it is followed through and they are kept informed/involved, they learn a tiny bit of the unknown thing and they built a relationship with what first seemed like a black hole.


My latest video is on IT knowing the job of its users and designing systems accordingly. It's a 2 way street. IT needs to know how users do their jobs, but users need to know how IT works at a basic level. Also, confirmation and acknowledgement is a separate issue, but sometimes IT workers get pissed and try to put off dealing with stupid users. When they know a call is going to take an hour on the phone to explain to a user how to do something basic whereas another user can have this explained in a couple minutes, that's where people get hesitant and I see the root cause. Does that mean they can ignore them? Absolutely not, but this is a huge issue.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> So working in IT, I encounter a lot of dumb things and IU've got to the point I've started a YouTube channel called Glorified Help Desk literally to talk about the dumb users and also dumb fellow IT workers. Well, is it me, or does it seem like computers and technology are the only tools of a job a person can plead complete ignorance too and even be proud of it? You wouldn't brag about not being able to do basic math, but people wear their computer illiteracy as a badge of honor:
> 
> Also, it seems like a lot of people just don't lack technology skills, but lack basic life skills:
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think you should take that flag behind you down.


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

PowerShell said:


> My latest video is on IT knowing the job of its users and designing systems accordingly. It's a 2 way street. IT needs to know how users do their jobs, but users need to know how IT works at a basic level. Also, confirmation and acknowledgement is a separate issue, but sometimes IT workers get pissed and try to put off dealing with stupid users. When they know a call is going to take an hour on the phone to explain to a user how to do something basic whereas another user can have this explained in a couple minutes, that's where people get hesitant and I see the root cause. Does that mean they can ignore them? Absolutely not, but this is a huge issue.


I just mentioned it because I thought it could be a way to slowly change attitudes for the better by making the users more involved without necessarily having to invest much more resources. Like even if the main reason was improving the service, it could help in another way too.

If your job is designing systems for the users, of course you need to know what they need from the system or else you're doing a bad job. But it doesn't follow that they _must_ know anything about your job. They should, but unless you're in a position to make them*, then it doesn't mean anything to say the users need to know. They don't. Are you just posting videos to complain and get validation?

*You could go on a strike maybe...


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## Lip Service (Mar 8, 2017)

That just seems so stupid that my brain can't process what I'm hearing and seeing. Forget the logic, not even the emotional reasoning works here.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Peter said:


> I think you should take that flag behind you down.


Why?


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## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

I don't know much about coding and I get along just fine. However, I did once work in a tech support position and there were many people who didn't know the difference between a web browser and the internet, or Google and Google Chrome.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

lookslikeiwin said:


> I don't know much about coding and I get along just fine. However, I did once work in a tech support position and there were many people who didn't know the difference between a web browser and the internet, or Google and Google Chrome.


The point of my thread and video is not to say people who can't code or do advanced stuff are computer illiterate, but merely to state how basic use knowledge is required. Things like making sure a computer is plugged in to make it work or knowing what a web browser is is the main thing.


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## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

PowerShell said:


> The point of my thread and video is not to say people who can't code or do advanced stuff are computer illiterate, but merely to state how basic use knowledge is required. Things like making sure a computer is plugged in to make it work or knowing what a web browser is is the main thing.


Yes, at least younger people should. My dad got a brain tumor when he was in his 20s and they took out a part of his temporal lobe so now it's harder for him to learn new stuff. He was once pretty good at it, but now you can tell him to click on something and it takes a while for it to process sometimes, so he hasn't progressed much since then. Because of situations like that - some people have it much worse than my dad, and brains aren't as elastic as they get older - I can't be too upset with some people for not getting it. Like, my grandfather got a smartphone and for a long time couldn't remember how to connect it to his car with blue tooth so he kept asking. Normally he's a very good learner - I know because he likes to regurgitate a lot of information he reads, which includes the car manual, but he couldn't find it in there. He's not stupid and it isn't that he doesn't try. He's just over 80 years old. Eventually I just wrote it down for him in his car manual. But, yes, as time rolls on, it's becoming more important.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

How tinkering with computers is not fun is beyond me. <.< its like tinkering with photography gear and software, your car, your bicicle and so on... ABSOLUTE PORN 100% pure enjoyment and "flow". Time flies, its like a drug. :blushed: tools are wonderful, but computers are the ultimate tool. Ppl don't know what they are missing out on.

q_q gib muney fer 3D printer plox!... CNC machine... laser welder.... gosh soo many fun tools run through computers.












PowerShell said:


> The point of my thread and video is not to say people who can't code or do advanced stuff are computer illiterate, but merely to state how basic use knowledge is required. Things like making sure a computer is plugged in to make it work or knowing what a web browser is is the main thing.


Are ppl not required to know that in order to function in school? How do ppl get through school in the first place without knowing the basics? Its kind of mandatory nowadays.  that badge of honor is more like a serious handicap.


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## Flamme et Citron (Aug 26, 2015)

Being good with computers requires some autonomy and self-efficacy, a lot of things aren't spelled out for you. Some people's way of dealing with problems is to run to other people for help, it's a generalized strategy they use in many situations. I know many companies have workshops for certain applications, usually those in the MS office suite. They never teach people how to find solutions to problems on their own though, which is a normal skill for people who have used computers a lot.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

LibertyPrime said:


> How tinkering with computers is not fun is beyond me. <.< its like tinkering with photography gear and software, your car, your bicicle and so on... ABSOLUTE PORN 100% pure enjoyment and "flow". Time flies, its like a drug. :blushed: tools are wonderful, but computers are the ultimate tool. Ppl don't know what they are missing out on.


I understand why people don't want to go above and beyond. A computer is a tool to get a specific task done. Beyond getting that task done, they don't want anything to do with the computer. Honestly, that's fine. The main thing is knowing how to get the task done and realize what they are doing so they can do basic troubleshooting and figure out why the desired result didn't happen.



> Are ppl not required to know that in order to function in school? How do ppl get through school in the first place without knowing the basics? Its kind of mandatory nowadays.  that badge of honor is more like a serious handicap.


For younger people, who have had the training which is now required in school, they're not as much of the problem. It's the older people who didn't have the training in school. The thing that doesn't really excuse them is they have been in front of a computer for decades in their job so they should have learned it there.



Flamme et Citron said:


> Being good with computers requires some autonomy and self-efficacy, a lot of things aren't spelled out for you. Some people's way of dealing with problems is to run to other people for help, it's a generalized strategy they use in many situations. I know many companies have workshops for certain applications, usually those in the MS office suite. They never teach people how to find solutions to problems on their own though, which is a normal skill for people who have used computers a lot.


Yep and people instantly call the help desk the second something isn't exactly and instantly like they expected. The phone is super distracting so we put a message before it would ring us basically telling the user the phone was for emergencies only and then defined the emergency as being locked out and also a few other things. It then mentioned how first rebooting a computer would solve many issues. It was about 45 seconds. You would not believe how the users started screaming at us because of this.


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## master of time and space (Feb 16, 2017)

I hear the frustration 

I blame Microsoft, Apple and other closed source companies who set all the setting just to be used out of the box. so that Joe Blogs doesn’t have to think, therefore does not ever learn anything either. just switch it on and there you go. easy
I have been trying for 15 years to convert all my friends over to a Linux Distro, because I am sick of running AV and malware scans on their virus infected bloatware machines
even adding HTTPS everywhere, noscript or an adblocker is a major life changing experience for them, they deserve to be hacked
These days I just tell them they need a new PC or laptop and they go get one, idiots!

A modern day equivalent of learned helplessness


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

master of time and space said:


> I hear the frustration
> 
> I blame Microsoft, Apple and other closed source companies who set all the setting just to be used out of the box. so that Joe Blogs doesn’t have to think, therefore does not ever learn anything either. just switch it on and there you go. easy
> I have been trying for 15 years to convert all my friends over to a Linux Distro, because I am sick of running AV and malware scans on their virus infected bloatware machines
> ...


To be honest, I think you're right on the Windows part, but I think Apple does a great job of making things super simple for basic use. If people are at the level of not being able to run basic malware scans themselves, I'd highly recommend not giving them Linux. Sure there will be less viruses, but you're going to get even harder things to mess with like say when they just buy say a printer or some other piece of hardware and there aren't drivers or if something more advanced needs to be configured. Linux is its own beast and is not for the faint hearted. I'll eventually do some videos on Linux and what I think about it. With that being said, I do not think it's anything for beginners. The bet beginner OS is Apple OSX.

This video goes into some of my thoughts on this:


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

master of time and space said:


> I hear the frustration
> 
> I blame Microsoft, Apple and other closed source companies who set all the setting just to be used out of the box. so that Joe Blogs doesn’t have to think, therefore does not ever learn anything either. just switch it on and there you go. easy
> I have been trying for 15 years to convert all my friends over to a Linux Distro, because I am sick of running AV and malware scans on their virus infected bloatware machines
> ...


It's good to have things so simple one does not have to put on much effort to learn how to use. It's great if tools are intuitive and easy to save time. The problem is when one is supposed to know how to use a set of tools in their jobs but not only they don't bother but even proudly admits their lack of skills. That's probably what gets help desk techs and sys admins crazy, when they can't even properly use a computer when their jobs requires them to do so.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

I just think that they're Luddites and they don't see the indirect benefits of computers and the indirect functions of computers. They just see it as like abstract art i.e. not useful for society.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Riven said:


> I just think that they're Luddites and they don't see the indirect benefits of computers and the indirect functions of computers. They just see it as like abstract art i.e. not useful for society.


I guess it's kind of a paradox. You're right in how people don't realize the usefulness of computers, in a work setting at least. The biggest problem is they do see use in their personal lives. Who isn't on Facebook? Who doesn't use the internet in some way or another? I really don't know anyone besides my grandmas who don't use a computer and/or smartphone. I mean it can be done because my grandmas are able to live perfectly well without that technology, but most people a generation or two younger absolutely rely on it in one way or another and it's useful to their social lives.


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

PowerShell said:


> I guess it's kind of a paradox. You're right in how people don't realize the usefulness of computers, in a work setting at least. The biggest problem is they do see use in their personal lives. Who isn't on Facebook? Who doesn't use the internet in some way or another? I really don't know anyone besides my grandmas who don't use a computer and/or smartphone. I mean it can be done because my grandmas are able to live perfectly well without that technology, but most people a generation or two younger absolutely rely on it in one way or another and it's useful to their social lives.


My parents blame useless app installs for why I slow down their computers. They're only partly right.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> Why?


Gives a bad impression. Makes you look like an extremist.

I have no problem with the flag itself. But it's the only thing there is in your background. Looks like you put it up there for the sake of the video. Who does that?


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## Psychophant (Nov 29, 2013)

strawberryLola said:


> Actually, I'm quite serious.
> 
> Computers- we will have to face buying one eventually at the very least learn how to use one.. so understanding how one computer works over another just like understanding how a 6 cylinder verses 4 on vehicle is just as important. *Though, a computer is less complex than a car.*
> 
> ...


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## Jamaia (Dec 17, 2014)

Plus, no person needs to know how many cylinders there are in their car or computer or mobile phone, as long as other people, who do know, are taking care of the thing. The person can just buy one of the cars they've seen other people drive, from the price range they can afford, of a pleasant color. It doesn't matter if they don't know anything about the thing, as long as certain requirements are met (and enforced, related to safety and stuff, environment).

I'm sure my mother does not know there's something called Google Chrome. To her Google just means the thing where you type something and it brings you stuff. I'm sure she does not even know there are different ways to use google to get more out of the search. I'm not certain she has ever used another browser than IE so to her it probably is not clear how IE is not the same as the internet. I don't think she needs to know these things to do her job. I'm sure she would understand if they were explained to her, but there are more important things in her job she needs to know. 

Advising her with her computer is probably impossible to do over the phone or e-mail. I don't think she has an attitude or would scream at you for trying though, but what she would need is someone to come over and show her what to do and explain why if she is having problems, and it will take repetitions. The people who demand that someone else fixes everything for them asap are trying to force part of the burden that they feel is excessive on someone who they think should be shouldering it. If you don't think the burden should be on you, then don't accept the burden. 

I think there has to be a better way of looking at this problem than blaming the people for being stupid. That attitude just makes it worse imo because once you agree they're stupid then that's it, you can only influence them if you show some respect. Unless of course you're in a position to cut them off, but you're not. Come on, this is personality theory site, it shouldn't be a surprise that not everyone cares to know. I think a lot of us here believe picking up interesting and useful things happens and should happen automatically for other people too. I think we're out of touch with reality.


**

Ok, let's say, another example form my stupid family; my father is retired and uses computers but is not particularly IT savvy. He is an engineer though and interested in learning, he has a certain pride in keeping up with things and he'd be ashamed to admit he has little idea of the basics of a computer, but I think he would rather be quiet and listen to others and then slowly start adopting terms others use, lol, like talk about a feature in a way that makes him sound like he knows more. But he is also a bit set in his ways, and likes comfortable life, so instead of starting from the scratch and assembling his own computer to better learn, like he would've when he was 20, he buys something affordable and then is frustrated if he can't get it to work. He asks for one of the Gen Y men in the family for help, like my INTJ will come over, speculate on 5 different things that could be wrong, throw some fancy terms around, work on it for some time usually in solitude, find out the issue was none of those first suggested but something else entirely, and then fix it. 

That should be good, right, but the thing is my dad never learns much in the process even if he was briefed about what went on. All the information just adds to the "Black Hole", making him more inclined to learned helplessness than feeling empowered to attempt to solve future issues on his own. It's too much of information because my INTJ doesn't have the slightest idea what parts my dad understood obviously because a) it's not his job to educate my dad and b) my dad would not say if he does not understand something, most people do not. In this case there's not really an issue, everyone will get on with their life. But if it was his job though to assist my dad with the computer, he would have to have a particular way of doing it, like any teacher, he would have to limit himself to terms and procedures and features he knows the student is familiar with and not confuse the student with inconsistencies. If the student has no foundation, then the foundation (shared terminology and such) should be built first with time. Teaching is not as easy as it seems, you can't necessarily teach just because you know how to do something, it goes way beyond having basic social skills. Your effort may be wasted if the student can not take in the information, in which case it's not surprising the student never learns.


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