# Childhood-Parent Relationship an Indicator of Type



## Wake (Aug 31, 2009)

Riso-Hudson traced the development of a type all the way back to the parent-child relationship. I have personal experience which has proved this to be an indicator. Don't you think this topic should be a question included in our questionnaire @Spades? It also seems like a nice subject to have a follow-up question to. We could have done DJ's typing right the first time if we relied on it more as well. Do you guys agree or disagree in a child-parent relationship question to be added to the questionnaire?


----------



## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

I don't know. The Parent Orientation is the only section in Riso-Hudson's description that I didn't relate to at all.


----------



## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm divided on this issue, my current belief is that enneagram types are present at birth and that's the assumption under which I wrote my enneagram description articles. But my article on Freudian enneagram could definitely tolerate the concept that types are learned or conditioned. On the other hand, it could be that a type present at birth then affects Freudian elements of psychology, not the other way around.

This is in the same category as wings and tri-types for me.


----------



## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm divided on this issue, my current belief is that enneagram types are present at birth and that's the assumption under which I wrote my enneagram description articles. But my article on Freudian enneagram could definitely tolerate the concept that types are learned or conditioned. On the other hand, it could be that a type present at birth then affects Freudian elements of psychology, not the other way around.

This is in the same category as wings and tri-types for me.


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

You say your personal experiences has proven this. That's merely one data point, so we don't know if there's an actual correlation. What type of correlation in particular are you expecting? I'm curious because I want to see if this exists in most people or not. The problem with asking really personal questions on the questionnaire is that people may be reluctant to answer and/or feel uncomfortable. This was one of the issues we considered when making the questions. We already asked a couple of personal questions in the optional set, and found that many people didn't answer the one that required them to describe a major event in their life. Furthermore, while this can be a real correlation, most of the effect would have been inflicted in the first 3-5 years of life, a time people generally don't remember too accurately.


----------



## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

It makes absolute sense from my experience why im the type I am. A lot of my behaviours are fundamentally motivated by the experiences I grew up in, no doubt about it, to deny that would be silly. Now, had I not experienced the upbringing I had then I do possibly think I could well have developed into another type, I reckon in fact it would have been another of my tritype but my core type has through past experience and conditionment overridden my gut and heart types. I'm just not sure if our core wants are present from birth and am more inclined to believe it is mostly an environmentally influenced thing.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I think so based on myself, an ISxJ 9w1, and an ESFJ 3w2 that is this is most definitely true.

The 9 learned quiet, stubborn control as a response to his angry, dominant mother. It looks submissive, yet there's apparently sometimes nothing more vexing to her than his stubborn silence etc. Dude has a wall of stone.

The 3's mother wanted more children, and instead ended up with one, and spoiled him rotten, believing from an early age that he was exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally intelligent, and THAT PEOPLE WERE JEALOUS OF HER FOR HAVING HIM AS HER SON. I am not joking, she told me in all seriousness one morning that people had been jealous of her when ESFJ was little. He's been made into a "star" by his own overbearing mother.

I'm a 6 probably due to a conflicting relationship between the instability of my mother having depression and anorexia when I was little, yet being "rescued" by the rigid security of my ISTJ grandfather. I have a weird push-pull relationship with security and also with authority figures...and my grandparents were VERY authoritative SJs, old-school SJs, who kept me secure and gave me everything I wanted and needed, but practically kept me in a cage and stifled parts of my personality that displeased them. Ergo...


----------



## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

I am of the opinion that our types are inborn. 

My father and I were talking about this just the other evening. He's a 6w5 and truly believes he developed the way he did due to the verbally and sometimes physically abusive way his father treated him. I was talking about my anger issues, and he told me he sometimes has issues of rage himself, and his father had them even worse (he appears to have been a less-than-healthy 8 based on my dad's descriptions).

My grandfather died a decade before I was born, and my father was notably in another country for pretty much my entire life. Yet I've somehow managed to inherit their 6 and 8 issues despite the fact that I was raised by two 9s (who don't even have an 8 wing or a 6 in their tritypes). I _have_ developed a lot of 9ish ways of coping with things, however--but that's not my type, nor is it my gut center. My half-sister far more resembles her 9ish parents than I do.

I know that personality traits are often independent of enneagram types (anyone can have anger issues, for instance) but in my case, I feel I have inherited most of my natural tendencies, including type. I have actually read the Riso and Hudson childhood experiences, and I don't relate strongly to any of them. I suppose, looking back, I can find some instances of each in my childhood, but nothing I would consider definitive.

Oh, and @Wake I do think it might be insightful, despite what I have just said. I filled out the questionnaire, and no one saw my painfully huge 4-fix. I felt like we needed some questions about the past (perhaps even one about the future). I'd support a motion for something along these lines.


----------



## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

@Wake @Spades What questionnaire is this? I would also like to assist in giving my answers... FOR SCIENCE!


----------



## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

I think it's a mix of being inborn and environmental factors. Everyone I've met IRL has fit the childhood pattern (the ones described by Riso and Hudson in _Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self Discrovery - _not the short versions found in_ The Wisdom of the Enneagram _and _Understanding the Enneagram _or the abridged versions posted in various spots on PerC)_. _

I think there's a bit of a misconception for some of the folks who are newer to the Enneagram that there are a specific events that the childhood pattern refers to, but I read it as much more broad. I also think the childhood patterns can be a lot more subtle than people think too - I had a really happy childhood which almost made it more difficult to see the pattern. But there are a few specific events that I think made an impact and helped develop my type. 

Having said that, I also think a lot of my personal traits are genetic. Almost everyone in my family is withdrawn and introverted; my temper came from my dad; my mom is a very quiet, thoughtful person; etc. But those traits combined with the way my household was growing up completely make sense in the way I developed and became a 5 - likewise for my brothers and their types (4 and 7). 

Being a counsellor and often doing a lot of work with childhood issues, I often see the childhood indications in peoples past (I never tell clients about the enneagram but sometimes it's helpful to use with certain clients in terms of how to approach an issue).

I think it could potentially be helpful to add childhood questions but I also think the way people relate to that will vary widely.


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

possiBri said:


> @Spades What questionnaire is this? I would also like to assist in giving my answers... FOR SCIENCE!


I think he is talking about the Type Me questionnaire.

I'm still curious what kind of correlation he's referring to though. Is it the one where for example, Compliant child + Withdrawn parent = Type X, and so on? *Looks for that thread*

Whatever my parents are, I made their lives so miserable and I'm not proud of this at all.


----------



## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Spades said:


> I think he is talking about the Type Me questionnaire.
> 
> I'm still curious what kind of correlation he's referring to though. Is it the one where for example, Compliant child + Withdrawn parent = Type X, and so on? *Looks for that thread*
> 
> Whatever my parents are, I made their lives so miserable and I'm not proud of this at all.


Well here is the thread I started a while ago for type 7: http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...d-relationship-likely-produce-e-type-7-a.html


----------



## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

possiBri said:


> Well here is the thread I started a while ago for type 7: http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-f...d-relationship-likely-produce-e-type-7-a.html


Ah yes, that thread contains the link to the article I was referring to!
Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs

I'm going to base my answers off this then. Sooo, I was definitely an *active child*, with an *active/responsive father* and an *active/neutral mother* (both Te users). Our home was a warzone. This system did get my tritype right: 748, but I should technically be an 8.

*Edit*: Knowing what my parents were like when I was 0-3 is quite tricky. I realize they were probably very different than who they are now, especially when my brother was born and I was neglected. It's interesting to note also, that my brother was a Neutral child, and his tritype (935) also matches with the Neutral options. Judging from my brother and I, it seems type is more in-born and correlated to which one of the three styles you were.


----------



## possiBri (Jan 4, 2011)

Spades said:


> Ah yes, that thread contains the link to the article I was referring to!
> Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs
> 
> I'm going to base my answers off this then. Sooo, I was definitely an *active child*, with an *active-responsive father* and an *active-neutral mother* (both Te users). Our home was a warzone. This system did get my tritype right: 748, but I should technically be an 8.


I fit quite well into the scenario listed for the 7. For the 9 and the 3, the description is accurate as well, and I think was cultivated by my mom having my little brother when I was 9. So after creating a 7 (active child/responsive parents), I suddenly was second-string because the baby got all the attention (my bro was sick a lot as a child). I already liked achieving things and doing things to impress my parents, but I think after my brother was born I first developed the 3 tendency (active-neutral) in order to get attention from adults in general (not just my parents), and then after a while it became a 9 tendency (neutral-active) once I hit high school and had figured out how to take care of myself, my mom wanted to start telling me what to do, etc.


----------



## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

I like the Law of Three theory. It leaves room for individual experiences. 5 fits for me (practically the story of my life with my type 2 mom!). The other withdrawn child descriptions fit me as well too. Actually all three of the withdrawn child descriptions are the types in my tritype.


----------



## wayupnorth (Feb 14, 2009)

I think we're born with our personalities. But the environment causes different manifestations of it and levels of development (healthy versus unhealthy). 

My sister and I are less than a year apart. Not twins but essentially experienced the same environment, though different relationship with our parents. That difference was likely due to the fact that we have completely different personalities. So our experience in an identical environment is very very different.

I think I was born extraverted but how I was treated as a child, especially as an older child and being a type 9, caused me to become much more introverted (I withdrew to keep the peace). I could not express myself externally without being attacked, so my Fi and my Ti and Ni are really developed for having dominant Ne. 

Such a complicated question! Fully aware that this comment doesn't have a real point. Can't seem to get there!


----------



## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Spades said:


> Ah yes, that thread contains the link to the article I was referring to!
> Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs


According to this, I should be a type 4. I can also see elements of 6 and 8 to my upbringing, although the 4 resonates with me a lot more. Interesting theory, and it does nail my tritype, although I've backed off thinking I'm a 4-dom.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

You know what? I've also been thinking of why I know two enneagram 9s in the same family: their mother is, like, this really OVER THE TOP ESFJ Enneagram 3. She is outgoing, personable, in your face, open, telling everything, and has always been a "sexy mom" (still is at nearly 50, her bf is eight years younger than her and she had her last child at 46 and still looks good). 

In response, at least two of her children became private, easy-going, modest, peacemaking 9s - one became a 9w8 and the other became a 9w1. I believe the third adult child became a very self-contained, directed, responsible 1. The two 9s have a similar vibe, and the third is has a more quietly in self-control Si dom. 

What's hilarious, though, is that the four year old seems exactly like her mom already, instead of consciously molding herself to be pretty much the opposite.

According to the enneagram institute, the two 9s were neutral children resisting the active parent (incidentally, they're both IxxP). Then the 1 was a responsive child with an active parent (interestingly she's an ISxJ).


----------



## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

Spades said:


> Ah yes, that thread contains the link to the article I was referring to!
> Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs


Well one of my brothers and I technically fit into this system, the descriptions don't fit any of us, and the 4 description doesn't match at all.

I'm a 5 and using those definitions I would fall into the neutral child vs responsive parent but I also didn't feel intruded upon by my parents. They gave me space and I always appreciated that. They were involved parents but they also had 3 kids very close in age, so I think having one who was comfortable entertaining themselves and withdrawing was a bit of a relief for them. I have brief flashes of memory from around 3 of wanting to be closer to my mom but there was a new baby so I quickly learned how to comfort myself.

My 7 brother technically fits the active child vs. responsive parent but the description of the 4 child is much closer to his experience: _In this relationship, the child usually tries to grab the attention of an parent...by expressing himself with increasing intensity, until a response is achieved. The Active child may act in a dramatic, exaggerated manner, attempting to get his message across to the...caretaker._ The description of the 7 childhood really doesn't fit for him. He was craving attention so badly when we were all young but most of it was going to the younger sibling.

My 4 brother and his parental relationship would be the same as mine. Definitely a neutral child who I think also felt intruded because he was the baby. He gets tons of extra attention from my mom and on the one hand seems to like that but also seems to resent it. I know he feels like neither of my parents understands him but the primary caregiver, my mom, was absolutely a responsive parent to him. He experienced a trauma when he was young (that wasn't disclosed until recently) and I think this has a big part of him feeling like my parents don't really understand him.


----------



## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

I take it all back. The childhood pattern is indeed true.

Now that I am for sure a type 7, I can concede that I do indeed see the childhood pattern. Sevens are supposed to be negatively oriented towards their mother figure. That's exactly true. I actually nicked-named her Susan "Never there when I need her" [last name].

In some ways, she was a great 9w1 mom--she embraced me for who I was, encouraged my creativity, was tolerant of my immature outbursts, and gave me lots of personal space. 

But that cannot obscure the fact that she neglected me in other ways--I remember lugging a full gallon across the room at the age of 4 to pour milk on my own cereal, because she couldn't be bothered to help me. I remember her telling me it was my "own damn fault" if I got hurt on the stove, or scuffed my knee running around. When my peers and stepfather were verbally abusive to me, she would act like it wasn't a problem. It's SO true; I just didn't see it till now.

But if I were another type, say a 6, I might pick up on my step-father abusing me. If I were an 8, maybe I'd feel that I'd needed to toughen myself up to do combat with him and my peers (there's a tendency in me to feel that way as it is). If I were a 1, I may have picked up on the fact that my 9w1 parents both disapproved of an open expression of anger and had high expectations for my academic achievement. Etc.

But instead, I picked up on my mom "not being there for me". It's not her fault--I just experienced her withdrawal this way. My sister is possibly a 4, and she experienced this as tragic parental abandonment.

That's why I feel type is unborn--all the factors are present, but we pick up on the issue that hurts us the most at an early age. I interpreted things through the lens that there I might never quite get what I need in life, and therefore had to rely on myself. 

My biological father is a 6, and he's always telling me about how much better off I'll be now that I live on my own and my step-father is out of my life. He picks up on the "abuse of power" issue. He doesn't understand that it was far more devastating to me that my mother acted like that "abuse of power" didn't matter. I now see why we have that difference of opinion.


----------

