# Why the fuck aren't there more Beta in the world?



## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I have been thinking up on socionics for quite a while now, and I have ran into the conundrum that I have stumbled upon. I was considering various breeding tactics that the various types will try to engage themselves in, pondering with my mental mind as a stumbled back in forth. Occasionally reading Japanese porn comics for inspiration. Then the true question that I have not yet answered stumbled onto my mind. "Why are their so few betas?" says my mind. Deflating my traction of thought, I beckoned to the answer with the hurried clockwork churning of a thousand mice pulling against the hands of a particularly huge clock. I have yet to answer the question but I do have a theory as to why.

First of all, despite the general bluntness of the IEI-SLE mating ritual. Their hobbies rarely correspond to each other, the IEI strokes the clomp with his tentative fingers while the SLE is out there doing kung-fu karate shit like a boss. They cannot make babies together whenever this happens, because both of which are too lazy to get outside of each other's comfort zones. They do this because they devalue Ne after all so they are likely to keep returning to the sensory object that strokes their egoistic zones as if they were snorting crack from the belly of a particularly attractive prostitute. I would assume the same applies to the EIE-LSI pair, but with more whacky screw ball comedy to it for no particular reason. Another reason as to why this happens is that each of their "sense of time" is generally different and what is can be pinned down to mean different things. It's as if the membrane of objects are filtered through a different cell layer despite being of the shape that the outer layer the object maintains. They fill this membrane with their own sense of unconsciousness, so the objects come to mean different things to them.

The Alpha/Deltas. As they live in a world outside of the physical constraints of the Se orientation, live in what is called a sensory impulsive magnetic zone as I like to call it. They more or less live in automatic shells in a cocoon of sensual impressions, which generally grants them a sense of them drifting off away from the world in their own particular way. Subjecting the here and now, into a self reflective, narcissistic worldview aroused from not objects themselves but from the general sensative idea of it (like say...energy or whatever). The Ne would naturally connect them outside of this cocoon by appealing to common archetypical representations and opportunistic orientation in which the collective unconsciousness orients trends in a fairly linear passage of time, such as say a sword meaning power whenever a Ni dominant could probably conjure up something away from such a thought. This is why they are likely to view knitting as boring. Despite the elephant like pace the Alpha/Delta sex having. The less raw fucking involved might make Alpha/Delta men more virile as well.

This of course involves Gammas but I couldn't really think up of anything to describe how Gamma relationships work.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Sixty Nein said:


> This of course involves Gammas but I couldn't really think up of anything to describe how Gamma relationships work.


You don't have to because Stratiyevskaya is the shit.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> You don't have to because Stratiyevskaya is the shit.


Thank god my work is cut out for me. This is like some sort of weird thought experiment as if two duals meet up with each other. They would create children within the same quadra as they are.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Sixty Nein said:


> Thank god my work is cut out for me. This is like some sort of weird thought experiment as if two duals meet up with each other. They would create children within the same quadra as they are.


I've read somewhere that this is the case more often than statistical distribution. Parents more often than not have dual kids. Gamma rational dualization is very quick from what I've read of this, so quick that it's very boring and they need a lot of work to make up for this boredom.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

cyamitide said:


> Gamma rational dualization is very quick from what I've read of this, so quick that it's very boring and they need a lot of work to make up for this boredom.


Ahaha holy _shit _that sounds like a dull dynamic


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> You don't have to because Stratiyevskaya is the shit.


I'm amazed you were able to spell that properly (I asume you did).



Are betas supposed to be more rare? I thought type distribution in socionics was more or less even. Btw, I'm not sure if beta's hobbies don't correspond to each other any less than other quadras'. There are surely some beta NFs who like sports that their counterparts may like (I, for example, did karate for a very short time when I was fourteen and currently do swimming on and off, but that's not an activity that lends itself to socializing imo) and they could have similar academical pursuits. I went a year to college to study music and I think I noticed a few betas and at least a couple were SLE. Also had an IEI teacher. And those are just a couple of examples, I'm not sure why we'd be in a less favourable position in that aspect.


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## vosquoque (Jul 26, 2012)

Natural processes keep the number of betas low because otherwise betas would flood the world with their pissing contests and kill each other. I am joking, of course. 

I do find it interesting that the common use of the word 'alpha' explains more about betas than 'beta'. But it's just terminology.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

If you use the MBTI type statistics, the types that value Ti, Se, Ni, Fe if summed up comprised the smallest group of them all.

Ti/Fe, Ne/Si (≈Alpha) - 32.6%
Ti/Fe, Se/Ni (≈Beta) - 13.7%
Te/Fi, Se/Ni (≈Gamma) - 21.2%
Te/Fi, Ne/Si (≈Delta) - 32.8%


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

The irrational dualization seems to take a lot longer, likely due to the enticing between Se desire to chase and Ni thinking about the future and thus be less attuned to the same desire, creating this snowball effect within the SEE.

Right @Amaterasu



Pancreatic Pandora said:


> I'm amazed you were able to spell that properly (I asume you did).


It took time to learn it yes. 



> Are betas supposed to be more rare? I thought type distribution in socionics was more or less even. Btw, I'm not sure if beta's hobbies don't correspond to each other any less than other quadras'. There are surely some beta NFs who like sports that their counterparts may like (I, for example, did karate for a very short time when I was fourteen and currently do swimming on and off, but that's not an activity that lends itself to socializing imo) and they could have similar academical pursuits. I went a year to college to study music and I think I noticed a few betas and at least a couple were SLE. Also had an IEI teacher. And those are just a couple of examples, I'm not sure why we'd be in a less favourable position in that aspect.


I personally find betas more common than gammas based on the people I've met and observed here on PerC. I think PerC by nature attracts Fe types more than Fi though. Overall, based on my observations, the absolute largest group is alpha followed by delta. 

I'm of the belief that quadra distribution may not be exactly even among all quadras, but that dual distribution should be, though I have zero evidence to support this.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

I think Beta NFs tend to be somewhat rare and Beta STs less so. At least here in the US. So I'm guessing if one quadra tends to be less prevalent than the others it's likely due to social reasons on what tendencies are rewarded and which aren't. The US tends to reward Gamma and to a lesser extent, Alpha values the most so those are the quadras that do the "best".


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

The world couldn't handle more of us. : P


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> I think Beta NFs tend to be somewhat rare and Beta STs less so. At least here in the US. So I'm guessing if one quadra tends to be less prevalent than the others it's likely due to social reasons on what tendencies are rewarded and which aren't. The US tends to reward Gamma and to a lesser extent, Alpha values the most so those are the quadras that do the "best".


The USA seems more delta, honestly, so if gammas are rewarded it's the rational dyad.


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## AST (Oct 1, 2013)

We get shit done. Why is there any need for more?


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## Dosto Yevsky (Feb 9, 2014)

They 

A) don't fuck enough
B) use contraception too often.


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## Cantarella (Sep 3, 2010)

cyamitide said:


> If you use the MBTI type statistics, the types that value Ti, Se, Ni, Fe if summed up comprised the smallest group of them all.
> 
> Ti/Fe, Ne/Si (≈Alpha) - 32.6%
> Ti/Fe, Se/Ni (≈Beta) - 13.7%
> ...


Is passing type on by genes really a thing, though? Lol


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

It was a theoretical thought experiment.


* *




and a mating call


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Cantarella said:


> Is passing type on by genes really a thing, though? Lol


Too bad I'll never know (?) because I can't have children and Amaterasu doesn't want them, so I guess this means the impending extinction of gamma quadra.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> The USA seems more delta, honestly, so if gammas are rewarded it's the rational dyad.


Maybe in outward appearance to people from other countries, especially the military, but for people living here it's very Gamma and a little Alphaish. Most if not all of the older traditional American values are indeed very Delta but semi-modern (from the 1990s and on) values and the pop culture are so Gamma it hurts.


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## Thilas (Jan 26, 2014)

OrchestraInside said:


> They
> 
> A) don't fuck enough
> B) use contraception too often.


LOL.
I had an SLE friend, mate, he would fuck anything he saw, like litteraly.
On the other hand, it's kind of true, sometimes too much thinking is killing


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## Dosto Yevsky (Feb 9, 2014)

Thilas said:


> LOL.
> I had an SLE friend, mate, he would fuck anything he saw, like litteraly.
> On the other hand, it's kind of true, sometimes too much thinking is killing


Variety is key. Even if you have sky-high libido, fucking the same person over and over again isn't going to spread your genes much. Go Ziona Chana!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Maybe in outward appearance to people from other countries, especially the military, but for people living here it's very Gamma and a little Alphaish. Most if not all of the older traditional American values are indeed very Delta but semi-modern (from the 1990s and on) values and the pop culture are so Gamma it hurts.


My impression of the pop culture is beta, not gamma. And the south and much of the politics seems delta as well.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

Why does this thread contain so many references to IEI's and SLE's needing to make babies and Betas needing to have more sex without contraception etc. 

It seems incredibly stupid. Since when the Jung's types and JCF's became genetically hardwired traits, waiting to be passed on to younger generations? 

I double dare anybody to make attempt at trying to prove me otherwise. You'd become my personal laughing stop for quite a long time.

Back to the topic. When you're speaking of why there aren't more Betas, I believe you're talking about why the culture of the nation you're speaking of does not value Beta quadra's values, not about that there are not enough people belonging to a Beta quadra. 

There are two different things, since the change of paradigm does not need a majority, it just needs a brilliant group or people, organization etc. to make waves amongst society, which happens to have similar values to one of the socionic's quadras, and that's enough to trigger a paradigm shift in what the culture widely accepts and values.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Sixty Nein
do you want the world to be like Game of Thrones?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> My impression of the pop culture is beta, not gamma. And the south and much of the politics seems delta as well.


Beta? Aside from Disney Beta would probably be the least prevalent in pop culture.  I mean, I guess one could make an argument about the 80s but today? Nah. I think you're correct about the South though.


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## Nico1e (Jul 27, 2011)

I cannot go into a restaurant in this town without sitting next to some douchebag talking in a loud, nitpicky voice about how a well-seasoned stainless steel frying pan is just as good as a nonstick pan, or telling the waitress that the chai tea in this restaurant isn't authentic enough and he wants a recommendation for where to get some authentic chai tea, or describing his college lab experiment where he tortures lab rats, all of this while I am trying to eat in peace. Invariably, I try to guess these people's types, and it seems there are particular types that dominate this town. There are a huge number of 'nitpicky douchebags' here where I live, and all of them want to eat at the same restaurants where I am eating and talk loudly about extremely boring or annoying things. Come on, you don't go up to the waitress and inform her that this restaurant's chai tea sucks - and yet, the waitress acted like this behavior was perfectly fine with her.


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

Nico1e said:


> I cannot go into a restaurant in this town without sitting next to some douchebag talking in a loud, nitpicky voice about how a well-seasoned stainless steel frying pan is just as good as a nonstick pan, or telling the waitress that the chai tea in this restaurant isn't authentic enough and he wants a recommendation for where to get some authentic chai tea, or describing his college lab experiment where he tortures lab rats, all of this while I am trying to eat in peace. Invariably, I try to guess these people's types, and it seems there are particular types that dominate this town. There are a huge number of 'nitpicky douchebags' here where I live, and all of them want to eat at the same restaurants where I am eating and talk loudly about extremely boring or annoying things. Come on, you don't go up to the waitress and inform her that this restaurant's chai tea sucks - and yet, the waitress acted like this behavior was perfectly fine with her.


Wait, are you saying these people are Betas? I'll cop to being a loudmouthed douchebag, but I can't imagine having a serious discussion about the merits of stainless steel pans or the authenticity of chai tea. That sounds kinda Si valuing to me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Beta? Aside from Disney Beta would probably be the least prevalent in pop culture.  I mean, I guess one could make an argument about the 80s but today? Nah. I think you're correct about the South though.


Nah, you need to see more pop culture coming out from Hollywood. Tarantino and Nolan are two very notable examples being possibly SLE and EIE respectively, though Aronofsky if one is looking for the more pseudo-intellectual definitely comes to mind as well (I would wager NF). Even movie blockbusters like Pacific Rim lie closest to beta Se way of telling a story (i.e. Tarantino).

And that's just Hollywood. You see a similar trend among books too with books like 50 Shades of Grey suggesting more of an Se-Ni kind of sexual attraction in the bedroom being favorable (to read about), or Game of Thrones (both TV series and the books) being very beta Se-laden too. 

The only stellar Ne-valuing company I can think of right now in terms of popular media is Disney, definitely creating this odd offset to the recent trends of seeking more gratification in violence and voyeurism. 

Twilight is an oddity here, though Myers does seem to ultimately rely on some ST-esque logic when it comes to presenting the dynamic between men and women. Could be either delta or beta depending on how you see it. 

Other popular media that comes to mind would be the Avengers which is definitely told through an Se-laden perspective, and I think it stands to reason that it is Loki the Se-valuing type, who is favored among the audience in contrast to Thor, the Si type.

I could go on really.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

spiderfrommars said:


> Wait, are you saying these people are Betas? I'll cop to being a loudmouthed douchebag, but I can't imagine having a serious discussion about the merits of stainless steel pans or the authenticity of chai tea. That sounds kinda Si valuing to me.


^^; you have to admit thou, those topics are booring and its annoying when people whine about trivial stuff.

I'd fall assleep if someone sat down next to me and started telling about tea and pans...people usually start with the weather and day to day stuff...which is worse.


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## Nico1e (Jul 27, 2011)

spiderfrommars said:


> Wait, are you saying these people are Betas? I'll cop to being a loudmouthed douchebag, but I can't imagine having a serious discussion about the merits of stainless steel pans or the authenticity of chai tea. That sounds kinda Si valuing to me.


I apologize, I've been sick the last few days and in a grumpy mood. I don't normally like to call people insulting epithets. I actually think my town is filled to the brim with LSIs. They seem to be attracted to Penn State University. In my experience, and also according to the socionics model that I am blindly struggling to use without understanding it (Model B with the plus and minus signs), there's nothing contradictory about saying that an LSI is Si-valuing, because, in that model, according to my garbled understanding of it, every quadra has some kind of Si... The LSIs who I've known are all these 'connoisseurs,' if I can spell that word correctly. They appreciate food being prepared and presented in a particular way, and (in my garbled socionics model) their kind of sensing is similar to the SEI and ESE. It's hard to explain in a hurry, and I'm waiting for a taxicab right now, and I feel like a fool trying to explain Model B when I know almost nothing about how it's supposed to really work... But the point was that I'm surrounded with so many suspected LSIs, it feels like the whole world is completely overrun by them, but that might just be because this is the town where Penn State is located, and something about Penn State magically attracts LSIs.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Nico1e said:


> I apologize, I've been sick the last few days and in a grumpy mood. I don't normally like to call people insulting epithets. I actually think my town is filled to the brim with LSIs. They seem to be attracted to Penn State University. In my experience, and also according to the socionics model that I am blindly struggling to use without understanding it (Model B with the plus and minus signs), there's nothing contradictory about saying that an LSI is Si-valuing, because, in that model, according to my garbled understanding of it, every quadra has some kind of Si... The LSIs who I've known are all these 'connoisseurs,' if I can spell that word correctly. They appreciate food being prepared and presented in a particular way, and (in my garbled socionics model) their kind of sensing is similar to the SEI and ESE. It's hard to explain in a hurry, and I'm waiting for a taxicab right now, and I feel like a fool trying to explain Model B when I know almost nothing about how it's supposed to really work... But the point was that I'm surrounded with so many suspected LSIs, it feels like the whole world is completely overrun by them, but that might just be because this is the town where Penn State is located, and something about Penn State magically attracts LSIs.


Why can't that just be Se, at least when it comes to food presentation since it after all deals with the external nature of the object as opposed to its internal qualities e.g. well-cooked? I see what you are saying and I'm familiar with the + and - elements, but I think what you are trying to describe would be better simplified into understood as simply LSIs being Se, or perhaps even simpler, S-valuing.


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## spiderfrommars (Feb 22, 2012)

FreeBeer said:


> ^^; you have to admit thou, those topics are booring and its annoying when people whine about trivial stuff.
> 
> I'd fall assleep if someone sat down next to me and started telling about tea and pans...people usually start with the weather and day to day stuff...which is worse.


LOL, yeah, that wasn't fair of me. Any type would find this boring.

I just imagine if you're going to stereotype, this is far more the stereotype of Delta STs than Beta STs...right? Beta STs are loud, dumb football cavemen and/or pick-up artists. (In this stereotype, Beta STs are exclusively male.) They're way too brutish to have a civilized conversation about chai tea, or even recognize any of the words I used in this sentence.

I mean, if we're gonna be stereotyping here...!

I don't know. I wonder who these people are, really, who legitimately enjoy discussing the quality of food, etc, instead of shutting up and eating it. I mean, do they exist? Maybe some people just like to complain for the sake of being annoying. Meh.
　



Nico1e said:


> I apologize, I've been sick the last few days and in a grumpy mood. I don't normally like to call people insulting epithets.


I wasn't insulted, I was being serious--I'm loud, opinionated, and enjoy offensive humor. I think those are Beta traits, and they might lead somebody to think of me as a loudmouthed douchebag. I was honestly confused by why you saw Beta in the people you were describing, because it didn't sound like the Beta brand of obnoxiousness.



> I actually think my town is filled to the brim with LSIs. They seem to be attracted to Penn State University. In my experience, and also according to the socionics model that I am blindly struggling to use without understanding it (Model B with the plus and minus signs), there's nothing contradictory about saying that an LSI is Si-valuing, because, in that model, according to my garbled understanding of it, every quadra has some kind of Si...


Okay, that is true, every type uses every function in some way. But we have the functions we value, and the functions we don't. LSI values Ni, Fe, Se and Ti, just like I (a IEI) do. Both of us devalue Si (as well as Te, Fi and Ne). It means that we don't think those things are important. They do show up in our function pattern, but as devalued functions.
　



> The LSIs who I've known are all these 'connoisseurs,' if I can spell that word correctly. They appreciate food being prepared and presented in a particular way, and (in my garbled socionics model) their kind of sensing is similar to the SEI and ESE.


Actually, this is the very stereotype of SLI. Far exaggerated, but it does have a basis in Si+Te. LSIs lead with Ti+Se. Is it the ISTj title that's confusing you? LSIs are called ISTj because they lead with a judging function. They're "equivalent" to MBTI's ISTP in terms of their functions, not ISTJ. It's dumb.

I'm not familiar with model B, so perhaps model B calls Si+Te a LSI and I'm talking out of my ass, here. If that's the case, sorry. Just explaining why this doesn't make sense in the way that terminology is generally used on this forum, and that I am familiar with.

But then, if that's what you call LSIs, what's a Beta? What does Beta mean, then? I don't know what worth the quadras would have at all. You can't make a quadra out of half the people who value Ni-Fe-Se-Ti, and half the people who value Si-Te-Fi-Ne. I mean, what sort of group are you describing, then?

...Oh right, Keirsey NFs.  Yeah, like I said, not a very useful grouping.
　
　



> It's hard to explain in a hurry, and I'm waiting for a taxicab right now, and I feel like a fool trying to explain Model B when I know almost nothing about how it's supposed to really work... But the point was that I'm surrounded with so many suspected LSIs, it feels like the whole world is completely overrun by them, but that might just be because this is the town where Penn State is located, and something about Penn State magically attracts LSIs.


Oh, you're surrounded by college students. That may be the problem. :tongue:


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## Nico1e (Jul 27, 2011)

FreeBeer said:


> ^^; you have to admit thou, those topics are booring and its annoying when people whine about trivial stuff.
> 
> I'd fall assleep if someone sat down next to me and started telling about tea and pans...people usually start with the weather and day to day stuff...which is worse.


Usually I am able to ignore people's conversations, but there are just certain times when people are pushing my buttons. The worst was the one where the guy went on and on describing in detail exactly what he was doing in his laboratory rat experiment. That whole thing made me angry on so many levels, and my brain couldn't help automatically asking, 'What personality type is this guy?' I honestly didn't know for certain what type he was, but I suspected LSI - I could be wrong. The other two examples didn't really make me angry so much, and I was fairly sure they were LSIs.



ephemereality said:


> Why can't that just be Se, at least when it comes to food presentation since it after all deals with the external nature of the object as opposed to its internal qualities e.g. well-cooked? I see what you are saying and I'm familiar with the + and - elements, but I think what you are trying to describe would be better simplified into understood as simply LSIs being Se, or perhaps even simpler, S-valuing.


I agree with you, it was more like some kind of Se. I was being sloppy and not trying very hard to pinpoint what information element they were using, and they were indeed talking about material objects and their external, objective qualities. Pots and pans, chai tea, and lab-rats-as-unfeeling-objects-to-be-manipulated (note, I'm not a vegetarian, and I do eat meat, I just don't like torturing animals for long periods of time for the purpose of developing new drugs that will be used to poison millions of people - like I said, the lab rat thing pushed my 'pet peeve' buttons in a hundred different ways).



spiderfrommars said:


> LOL, yeah, that wasn't fair of me. Any type would find this boring.
> 
> I just imagine if you're going to stereotype, this is far more the stereotype of Delta STs than Beta STs...right? Beta STs are loud, dumb football cavemen and/or pick-up artists. (In this stereotype, Beta STs are exclusively male.) They're way too brutish to have a civilized conversation about chai tea, or even recognize any of the words I used in this sentence.
> 
> ...


I tried to break the quote into smaller pieces, but had a technical difficulty, so I had to just delete it. 'Loud, dumb football cavemen' made me laugh. I'm going to answer the rest of it separately and I shouldn't have tried to quote them all in one post simultaneously. My web browser did not like that.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> Nah, you need to see more pop culture coming out from Hollywood. Tarantino and Nolan are two very notable examples being possibly SLE and EIE respectively, though Aronofsky if one is looking for the more pseudo-intellectual definitely comes to mind as well (I would wager NF). Even movie blockbusters like Pacific Rim lie closest to beta Se way of telling a story (i.e. Tarantino).
> 
> And that's just Hollywood. You see a similar trend among books too with books like 50 Shades of Grey suggesting more of an Se-Ni kind of sexual attraction in the bedroom being favorable (to read about), or Game of Thrones (both TV series and the books) being very beta Se-laden too.
> 
> ...


Tarantino yes, Nolan no. Nolan is Gamma and Tarantino is an oddity among Hollywood directors so he's a perfect example of how un-Beta Hollywood is. It's pretty much a pocket of Gamma city within LA with the rest of the quadras taking second seat. Now, if you want to talk the film industry itself then I think there are very Beta heavy sectors but few in the direct cultural process. Many would prefer to go the indie route anyway since it's less "selling out". Plus you have to remember that just because an industry is heavily influenced by one quadra doesn't mean that they're going to exclude all the others. That's poor business and are obviously going to cater to as wide an audience as possible.

Disney as an Ne-valuing company? Well it's a large enough company with a wide enough audience that certain aspects of it would be true but considering how the company seems to be run it's more than likely run by Betas and maybe a few Gammas.

At any rate, aside from a few Delta specific parts of the US, I'd say it's still overall Gamma in nature. Thinking back on K-12. American values are pretty much Gamma values. The sanctity of the individual above the whole. Self-sufficiency (perhaps some would say selfishness) is the norm. Money or more importantly entrepreneurship is valued highly. Spending time on concepts without clear purpose (like Socionics) aren't valued. I'm sure there're more but that's off the top of my head. I'd be interested in hearing your arguments in favor of Delta though.


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## Nico1e (Jul 27, 2011)

spiderfrommars said:


> LOL, yeah, that wasn't fair of me. Any type would find this boring.
> 
> I just imagine if you're going to stereotype, this is far more the stereotype of Delta STs than Beta STs...right? Beta STs are loud, dumb football cavemen and/or pick-up artists. (In this stereotype, Beta STs are exclusively male.) They're way too brutish to have a civilized conversation about chai tea, or even recognize any of the words I used in this sentence.
> 
> ...


I know someone who I've typed as an LSI who does talk about being a pick-up artist.  And actually, having a civilized conversation about the chai tea wasn't such a bad thing. I think what bothered me about that was he just, basically, went up to the waitress and for all practical purposes he told her, 'Your tea sucks.' This is a sort of truth-telling that the Beta STs like to do, but when I hear it, it sometimes rubs me the wrong way (if I'm in a bad mood and paying attention, etc, etc disclaimer). When I get to know someone better, I get used to it - I have several coworkers who are LSIs and I'm quite fond of them. I just know what to expect from them - blunt truth-telling. Honestly, sometimes I'll be secretly thinking exactly those truths, I just don't like to come out and say them out loud to people.



spiderfrommars said:


> I wasn't insulted, I was being serious--I'm loud, opinionated, and enjoy offensive humor. I think those are Beta traits, and they might lead somebody to think of me as a loudmouthed douchebag. I was honestly confused by why you saw Beta in the people you were describing, because it didn't sound like the Beta brand of obnoxiousness.


I could be totally wrong, too. I have a way of typing people by how they make me feel. I learn from experience how particular types of people tend to make me feel, and so when I get that same feeling later on, I can guess that this person might be that type - and my stereotyping is probably pretty shallow, and sometimes wrong. It happens when I'm typing strangers in public places without knowing them. And I ignore the types of almost everybody - unless they do something blatantly annoying that catches my attention, and all of a sudden I'm wondering, 'What type is this jerk?' Meanwhile, hundreds of people of other types pass by, and I don't notice or care what type they are. I'm totally biased.



spiderfrommars said:


> Okay, that is true, every type uses every function in some way. But we have the functions we value, and the functions we don't. LSI values Ni, Fe, Se and Ti, just like I (a IEI) do. Both of us devalue Si (as well as Te, Fi and Ne). It means that we don't think those things are important. They do show up in our function pattern, but as devalued functions.
> 
> Actually, this is the very stereotype of SLI. Far exaggerated, but it does have a basis in Si+Te. LSIs lead with Ti+Se. Is it the ISTj title that's confusing you? LSIs are called ISTj because they lead with a judging function. They're "equivalent" to MBTI's ISTP in terms of their functions, not ISTJ. It's dumb.


Yeah, the thing with the functions - I gave up on that, because I think there's a mistake in the reasoning somewhere, but it's hard to find it, pinpoint it, and disprove it.... So if I tried to argue about the order of the functions in Jungian versus the order of the functions in socionics versus which type they are in MBTI, it's gonna sound like 'But, up is down, and *you* said that down is up!' We'll both be spouting gibberish but I think we both are trying to say the same thing...



spiderfrommars said:


> I'm not familiar with model B, so perhaps model B calls Si+Te a LSI and I'm talking out of my ass, here. If that's the case, sorry. Just explaining why this doesn't make sense in the way that terminology is generally used on this forum, and that I am familiar with.
> 
> But then, if that's what you call LSIs, what's a Beta? What does Beta mean, then? I don't know what worth the quadras would have at all. You can't make a quadra out of half the people who value Ni-Fe-Se-Ti, and half the people who value Si-Te-Fi-Ne. I mean, what sort of group are you describing, then?
> 
> ...


 I won't blame you if you don't remember this, but I'll try to describe what the LSI looks like on Model B. The LSI would be: (+Ti/-Te) (-Se/+Si) (+Fi/-Fe) (-Ne/+Ni) (and then after that there are all the subconscious functions (+Fe/-Fi) (-Ni/+Ne) (+Te/-Ti) (-Si/+Se). Unfortunately, I can't explain how that works, because, doggone it, I don't read Russian.... That's what I mean when I say that the LSI has 'both types of sensing.' Their second function is -Se/+Si in that model. I'm talking out of my ass too, actually, but I have seen charts that show it like this, and the chart is called Model B. .... But we don't even need to worry about that too much - if I ever learn it well enough to explain it, I'll come back here and write about it without feeling helpless to explain. 

To confuse you even more, my own functions (SLI) would be: (-Si/+Se) (+Te/-Ti) (-Ni/+Ne) (+Fe/-Fi). I like the model because it just makes sense to me. But talking about Model B is opening up too much of a can of worms....

My typing of people is extremely biased, as I said above. I only try to guess the types of strangers in public if they happen to be doing something which is very noticeable or annoying, so there are millions of people whose types I will never notice. I never actually counted how many betas there are compared to how many other types there are (to attempt to bring myself back on topic).


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@spiderfrommars and while I understand your sentiment that betas wouldn't discuss the finer nuances of chai tea, I think those Se-inclined may very well get hung up on the external qualities of what makes a product more appealing or superior especially in terms of presentation. I love flashy stuff for example. If you are going to dress do it with bang, if you are going to decorate your apartment, do it with a bang too. Of course Se types can be highly concerned about what sensory stimulation is of superior quality over other forms and prefer the high-sophisticated life (I might argue that's more in line with Se either way seeking that kind of materialism whereas Si doesn't really have that drive preferring the "cozy" or familiar instead), so ultimately it boils down to what qualities about said tea was discussed. 

Most of all though, one might argue that it's perhaps more in line with gamma than it is beta to sit and banter in this pseudo-aristocratic way and poking fun of each other while playing that game than it is beta. Gammas can be pretty darn offensive to others too since they are also Se-valuing, and may come across as harsher and crasser than betas. Betas I just find offensive sometimes when the humor is taken too far usually because I can't agree with the ethical implications of the jokes. I think my biggest issue has to do with aristocracy vs democracy.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> Tarantino yes, Nolan no. Nolan is Gamma and Tarantino is an oddity among Hollywood directors so he's a perfect example of how un-Beta Hollywood is. It's pretty much a pocket of Gamma city within LA with the rest of the quadras taking second seat. Now, if you want to talk the film industry itself then I think there are very Beta heavy sectors but few in the direct cultural process. Many would prefer to go the indie route anyway since it's less "selling out". Plus you have to remember that just because an industry is heavily influenced by one quadra doesn't mean that they're going to exclude all the others. That's poor business and are obviously going to cater to as wide an audience as possible.


I can't agree on that Nolan is a gamma. No way. If he was I am quite sure I would be able to actually appreciate his stuff instead of finding it completely devoid of any feeling or ability to connect to his works. 

Though yes of course, but that wasn't quite my point. I was speaking in generalities first and foremost, not specifics. I might argue gamma is more likely to take an indie route e.g. Donnie Darko, Mr. Nobody, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. 



> Disney as an Ne-valuing company? Well it's a large enough company with a wide enough audience that certain aspects of it would be true but considering how the company seems to be run it's more than likely run by Betas and maybe a few Gammas.


Perhaps, but the art that is being produced is clearly delta. 



> At any rate, aside from a few Delta specific parts of the US, I'd say it's still overall Gamma in nature.  Thinking back on K-12. American values are pretty much Gamma values. The sanctity of the individual above the whole. Self-sufficiency (perhaps some would say selfishness) is the norm. Money or more importantly entrepreneurship is valued highly. Spending time on concepts without clear purpose (like Socionics) aren't valued. I'm sure there're more but that's off the top of my head. I'd be interested in hearing your arguments in favor of Delta though.


I fail to see how that just can't be applied to Te-Fi in general, meaning it also applies as much to the delta rational dyad which I already mentioned before.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

ephemereality said:


> I fail to see how that just can't be applied to Te-Fi in general, meaning it also applies as much to the delta rational dyad which I already mentioned before.


Fair enough the US is very Te-Fi which is evident in the payscale for LIE and LSE compared to every other type. Although generalizing a bit more, one could probably make a compelling case for the US being of the Ej temperament. Dynamic, conscientious and extroverted.


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## dreamsofsilence (Sep 17, 2020)

Sixty Nein said:


> I have been thinking up on socionics for quite a while now, and I have ran into the conundrum that I have stumbled upon. I was considering various breeding tactics that the various types will try to engage themselves in, pondering with my mental mind as a stumbled back in forth. Occasionally reading Japanese porn comics for inspiration. Then the true question that I have not yet answered stumbled onto my mind. "Why are their so few betas?" says my mind. Deflating my traction of thought, I beckoned to the answer with the hurried clockwork churning of a thousand mice pulling against the hands of a particularly huge clock. I have yet to answer the question but I do have a theory as to why.
> 
> First of all, despite the general bluntness of the IEI-SLE mating ritual. Their hobbies rarely correspond to each other, the IEI strokes the clomp with his tentative fingers while the SLE is out there doing kung-fu karate shit like a boss. They cannot make babies together whenever this happens, because both of which are too lazy to get outside of each other's comfort zones. They do this because they devalue Ne after all so they are likely to keep returning to the sensory object that strokes their egoistic zones as if they were snorting crack from the belly of a particularly attractive prostitute. I would assume the same applies to the EIE-LSI pair, but with more whacky screw ball comedy to it for no particular reason. Another reason as to why this happens is that each of their "sense of time" is generally different and what is can be pinned down to mean different things. It's as if the membrane of objects are filtered through a different cell layer despite being of the shape that the outer layer the object maintains. They fill this membrane with their own sense of unconsciousness, so the objects come to mean different things to them.
> 
> ...


There’s more betas than deltas lmao


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