# Do I use Fe or Fi?? OMG SO ANNOYED



## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

ConspiracyTheory said:


> I live with a Fi Dom so I just contrast his logic from mine. He concludes things as right or wrong based on social values and a few of his own created values.
> Like he says polygamy is wrong - why? Because of religious, social and personal values. He then defends those with logic about ideal behavior in society.
> I argue that "wrong" is subjective. Objectively, we can only say, it's one of many possibilities. That doesn't mean I agree with it, I'm just saying wrong is not a truth, it's subjective.
> He says "wrong" is a truth. Right and wrong are decisions we have the capacity to make, and choosing moral behavior is part of the truth.
> ...


Hmm. Polygamy is interesting... Of course different FJs have different opinions on it, but for me it's hard for me to accept personally until I see society accepting it. When I talk to my friend who lives in a polygamous family, of course I don't have a problem with it. When polygamy is mentioned during church or something, of course I act like I support their not on that Polygamy Is Evil. 

And where do I stand? That's it. I don't know. 

I think that some Fe users can really suffer from that, especially when we don't have strong Ti. We get so caught up in having opinions that are appeasing to others that sometimes we don't have any idea of what our actual opinions are.

Edit: oh, and I realize I haven't elaborated on the society accepting it thing. While personally I am okay with people having polygamous relationships if they all consent to it, it will be hard for me to openly and personally condone the normalizing of such relationships. This is different from my stance on homosexuality, which I am firmly in support of (and willing to go against the majority to defend those rights if necessary). While part of this is sort of an inner moral compass thing, it also has to do with the normalizing of homosexuality within society.


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## ConspiracyTheory (Apr 13, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> Hmm. Polygamy is interesting... Of course different FJs have different opinions on it, but for me it's hard for me to accept personally until I see society accepting it. When I talk to my friend who lives in a polygamous family, of course I don't have a problem with it. When polygamy is mentioned during church or something, of course I act like I support their not on that Polygamy Is Evil.
> 
> And where do I stand? That's it. I don't know.
> 
> ...



When you theorize about the issue, you attach no personal insights or emotions or values, you just look at the literal description of a possible way of life that would let some people be happy, so you approve of it?

Fe perspective is like imagining the world was just created and humans were just born. Now we can build society however we want. But Fe users don't know how to create a social structure of "right" or "wrong" out of aaaalllllllll the possibilities. Who decides right and wrong anyway? If one way makes people happy and another makes other people happy- why does one have to be called wrong?

Fe users can side with those who are for it and those who are against it, when it comes to an issue. Because Fe is an objective view.


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

ConspiracyTheory said:


> When you theorize about the issue, you attach no personal insights or emotions or values, you just look at the literal description of a possible way of life that would let some people be happy, so you approve of it?
> 
> Fe perspective is like imagining the world was just created and humans were just born. Now we can build society however we want. But Fe users don't know how to create a social structure of "right" or "wrong" out of aaaalllllllll the possibilities. Who decides right and wrong anyway? If one way makes people happy and another makes other people happy- why does one have to be called wrong?
> 
> Fe users can side with those who are for it and those who are against it, when it comes to an issue. Because Fe is an objective view.


In response to your first question... Sort of. As long as people are happy and no one gets hurt. Of course as a Catholic I have other values - I wouldn't want a divorce for myself, for example, and I will baptize my children, Christian things like that - but even with that I'm not thinking about those as values. Usually when it comes to things though I'm okay as long as everyone is okay. (And if someone, say, wants to harass a polygamous... family, a whole society wants to harass a polygamous family because they don't approve... That's a social norm I wouldn't be okay with, because I'm never okay with people being hurt. If someone is but hurt about another person' existence, I'm completely okay with not pacifying them. But apart from those situations I tend to like a situation if everyone is happy and no one is hurt.)

If we just started society... Honestly I would be the person wanting to start a village. Band together. Form friendships. Form alliances. And I think I would essentially be okay with everything in the village... Until we started getting antagonistic towards other groups and picking on the weak in the society. These things would happen inevitably, but that's what I would stand against. I do have a strong idea of right and wrong, but to me right is "doing good to all people" and wrong is "doing harm to any person". 

Not sure how Fi would compare (I tried to compare in this post to Fi but it didn't work and I failed, ha) but that's how I would very likely react to the starting of a society.


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## ConspiracyTheory (Apr 13, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> In response to your first question... Sort of. As long as people are happy and no one gets hurt. Of course as a Catholic I have other values - I wouldn't want a divorce for myself, for example, and I will baptize my children, Christian things like that - but even with that I'm not thinking about those as values. Usually when it comes to things though I'm okay as long as everyone is okay. (And if someone, say, wants to harass a polygamous... family, a whole society wants to harass a polygamous family because they don't approve... That's a social norm I wouldn't be okay with, because I'm never okay with people being hurt. If someone is but hurt about another person' existence, I'm completely okay with not pacifying them. But apart from those situations I tend to like a situation if everyone is happy and no one is hurt.)
> 
> If we just started society... Honestly I would be the person wanting to start a village. Band together. Form friendships. Form alliances. And I think I would essentially be okay with everything in the village... Until we started getting antagonistic towards other groups and picking on the weak in the society. These things would happen inevitably, but that's what I would stand against. I do have a strong idea of right and wrong, but to me right is "doing good to all people" and wrong is "doing harm to any person".
> 
> Not sure how Fi would compare (I tried to compare in this post to Fi but it didn't work and I failed, ha) but that's how I would very likely react to the starting of a society.


Me too. My Fe tells me to beleive in an overarching truth, like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
In other words just don't hurt people. Beyond that I don't need to micromanage people in how they live. They can decide for themselves "right" and "wrong" as long as the abide by the overarching principle of treating others as you want to be treated.

Maybe this is a good description of Fe. I don't know. I'm glad to talk to someone who has Fe so I can see how we think in common.


The problem is Fe is very laissez-faire. It works in theory, but not always in practice. A lot of people cannot understand this concept and human weakness like greed will call for judgments to be made. Society has some issues that need more value judgments for fair behavior, and Fi is good with this need. It is comfortable judging where needed.


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## elliephant (Nov 5, 2014)

I'm just going to go with whole black shirt vs white shirt scenario right now but I'm pretty sure if someone wore a black shirt to spite everyone else like at a funeral or just to turn up and be different I wouldn't get angry at them or be annoyed, I think I'd question it more. Like was it actually necessary to do that? If they did it by accident I'd feel uncomfortable, like that second hand kind of awkwardness or embarrassment that you sometimes get. 

Normally, I'm cool with people embracing who they are and being different because that's what they want to be. Sometime's I do look at people, like maybe someone in my course who is clearly quite eccentric and feel this first impression sort of dislike towards them (WHICH I KNOW IS PRETTY JUDGEMENTAL) because they're not in the norm but then I check myself and I tell myself that sure I don't have to like them but I shouldn't judge them because of what they wear etc. 

It just confuses me as to how I act because I don't know whether I'm acting from what I want to do or what society expects me to do. I'm not even sure if that is an indicator of Fe or Fi. I guess I mould myself for the first impression so that people will like me, I do want to fit in in new situations. 

I try to look at most things objectively, at least I think I do. If I have a debate someone I'll choose the side that I stand for but I can clearly see where the other person is coming from and the merits of that. I have a friend who can't do that sometimes, she just pushes her point and I give her facts but she'll rebut it with some subjective experience and I'm like you can't argue using that because it only applies to you and it's being pretty general but then I still do understand what she's going on about.


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

ConspiracyTheory said:


> Unconscius Fe user here and I agree. Maybe this is a pattern to what Fe really is.
> 
> My first thought was : if the guy wore a black shirt because he wants to draw attention to himself for being an individual then he's annoying. Standing up against uniforms won't change the world in any meaningful way. *If he wore it to be funny, or saw wearing white as irrelevant and and only had a clean black shirt to wear then he's OK.*





alittlebear said:


> I _will_ say this is a little simplistic. Again, dominant Fe here, and I wouldn't think someone should change a shirt just to fit in. That's... like, not how it works, at least not for me. *If the person in the black shirt wore it to be rebellious and sulk because he didn't want to be like everyone else and wear a white shirt, now that would annoy me and I would think he needed an attitude check, but if someone just wears a different shirt color I don't think about how they need to conform more to the group in such a superficial way.*


Same.









That's actually good comparison of attitudes going in this thread.


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@ConspiracyTheory not gonna lie, it's hard for me to see Fe working in theory but not in practice. Because it's my dominant fiction and regardless if it is the lens through which I judge my life, regardless of if it works 

That said, we just discussed on another topic how I can't judge, like my Fe is so strong that it's hard for me to view things objectively and place value judgments on them. I can do it socially - I can tell you that right now society is really excited about Vangers and doesn't really care about that movie with the alien guy in it - but could I tell you my favorite movie out right now?nid probably stumble through that as well. This is just one of Fe's many weaknesses. 
@Herondale _hmm._ Your first paragraph seems more Fi, the second paragraph a little more Fe. 

One thing for me... I don't really ever think about if I'm doing what society wants me to do. I... don't even know if I've ever considered it. I mean, maybe to some extent? When it comes to my dreams, my future, I have to make sure I'm not just wanting to be a teacher because my mom wants me to be a teacher or if I really want to be a teacher, and I can easily be influenced by people like that... But I don't have a problem like wearing a dress or something because it's popular to wear dresses? That doesn't seem like something weird to me, being untrue to myself, that seems more like a smart move so I can stay in style. 

Okay, ready for another scenario? We might have to check this one, and it could be different for TPs, but...

In school, I _loved_ Spirit Days. I would go all out. We are apart of this school! We are all one, as a student body! I would like literally wear all the crap I could from my spirit stuff. If there was a pep rally, all the better! I loved pep rallies. So fun. So peppy. 

Now, there was a girl in my drama class... And she didn't like pep rallies. She saw them as like brainwashing or something. School spirit she thought was unfair, like it was gang mentality. And, sometimes when I talked to her, I would find myself being sympathetic... which might not have worked out so well for me, as I was covered in ten layers (not kidding) of school-colored beads. Eventually I just accepted that I didn't agree with her. Pep rallies were awesome. School spirit was awesome. And if rooting for my school made me a mindless chicken, then so be it! 

I think that difference demonstrates Fe and Fi to some extent. She saw danger in a lot of people conforming at once (even for something obviously harmless, like school spirit) while I was like... absolutely all for it. 

(Note: This does not mean I was susceptible to things like getting swayed to abuse when we did our Holocaust Simulation projects. I was still that "German"-grouped person who was being pointedly nice to the "Jewish"-grouped people, who was unable to treat them any differently. I'm not prone to peer pressure in that way. [I. know some Fe-doms especially are, but that's not how it is necessarily.] I like positive group feelings, but I will not conform if the unspoken standard of behavior includes being unkind to someone.)

Now, I also want to say that not everyone would act this way. I know some Fi-doms who found pep rallies quite amusing, and some Fe-doms who "hated" pep rallies (mostly to fit in with their social group who naturally hated pep rallies because they "weren't cool," as most high schoolers do... but of course I can't speak for them personally). But I think this is a good example of how Fe likes big groups and conforming while Fi shies away from any group behavior, which they see to some extent as "mob mentality".


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Let's say you were going through a really, rough and intense time in a situation that you KNOW the other person doesn't know how it feels. Yet, they say to you: "I know exactly how you feel."

What would your reaction be?


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

Revolver Ocelot said:


> If there's a group of people seated in the stands wearing white shirts and there's a lone person sitting in the middle of the group wearing a black shirt how would you feel? Do you think that person is a moron and should change his/her shirt or do you think it's cool?


If everyone was wearing a white shirt due to some rule that they were supposed to, and the black shirted person was trying to be a cute little rebel, I would probably think they were some kind of stupid or something.

No, maybe that's a bit harsh, but I would totally be rolling my eyes  I just wouldn't get it.



alittlebear said:


> That said, I think that peer pressure is usually associated with Fe. Personally I'm great at withstanding peer pressure, the only peer pressure I suffer from is like positive peer pressure to go on a roller coaster or something, but Fe typically is seen as that type that's vulnerable to jumping off the cliff because everyone else is. If that's what you mean by you would do drugs, like you would see everyone else doing it and you couldn't refuse them and go against the norm, that could be more Fe.


I find that so interesting that you would refer to that as "positive" peer pressure.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

If you're being persuaded by people to do something that you don't want to do.. . . that seems like totally negative peer pressure to me.

I don't enjoy roller coasters, so if someone tried to "positively" peer pressure me into going on one, I'd tell them to shut up.



But if you actually _wanted _to go on the roller coaster but were just scared and needed that social push, that's hugely different.


Which one were you referring to?


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

@emberfly I refer to it as positive peer pressure because it's pushing me out of my comfort zone in a safe way (as opposed to being pushed out of my comfort zone to do something dangerous or illegal, like go fish off the train tracks or do drugs or movie hop). Usually I don't want to go on the roller coaster, but I feel pressured to anyway because others want me to go and I feel bad disappointing them. I've gotten better at setting boundaries (especially since I now know I have serious anxiety problems and roller coasters impact me negatively in a way they don't for most people), but in the past I guess I have been pushed to go on roller coasters I didn't in an unhealthy way. It's just I have an ESTP dad and he's taught me it's good to step out of my comfort zone, so I tend to see safe and harmless stepping out of the comfort zone as more of a positive than a negative thing. (Like trying something new at a restaurant, it usually only causes temporary duress but broadens your horizons permanently in what I would consider a good way).


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## elliephant (Nov 5, 2014)

@alittlebear Well that scenario is a little difficult just because in Australia (or at least where I live) we don't have school spirit days so I can only imagine what they would be like. I'm just going to base this off athletics and swimming carnivals but when we had them I would dress up and participate, I enjoyed doing it and being part of the colour house I was in. There were some people who just turned up because it was compulsory and they just clearly didn't want to be there. They annoyed me because it's supposed to be a day of joining in and they just thought they were too cool for it. 

I think if someone talked to me about their reasons for not participating, like the girl in your drama class, I'd understand their point of view but I don't think I would be sympathetic or feel like I should join them. I'd just be like "oh yeah I get your point" and maybe mull over it but I would still go back to what I was doing. 
@angelcat ahh I'm not sure. I'm tossing up between just saying thanks but internally being like you don't know how I feel or just being nice about it and saying straight up to them something like "I really appreciate it but I really don't think you know how I feel right now". I wouldn't be rude. That's never happened to me so I don't know how my emotional state would factor in to my reply


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Fi is more resistant to being told how it feels. Fe would accept that such statements are social niceties, not meant sincerely, and take them in stride, because Fe is more inclined to "know" itself how a situation might feel even if it has never been in it. (IE, if I can do it ... they can do it.)


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

angelcat said:


> Fi is more resistant to being told how it feels. Fe would accept that such statements are social niceties, not meant sincerely, and take them in stride, because Fe is more inclined to "know" itself how a situation might feel even if it has never been in it. (IE, if I can do it ... they can do it.)


Confused. Did you mean Fi won't like if someone, let's say John is telling Fi how John feels, or did you mean that Fi won't like it if John tells Fi how something should feel to Fi?


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## 68097 (Nov 20, 2013)

Fi is more inclined to assert: NO, YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW I FEEL, AND I RESENT THAT YOU CLAIM YOU DO. 

Fi doesn't like others speculating on its motives.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Herondale said:


> So whenever I do a cognitive function test I always get Fi as my main function but then when I answer the questionnaires on here people see Fe in me.
> 
> I just don't understand because I think Fe/Fi is my main function or my second function and so I need it to work out my type and when I get two different answers I just get confused!
> 
> How should I work it out properly?


Take a deeeeep breath. Take another. Take another. Now explain to me why it's so important to know whether you are using Fe or Fi? Don't you think if you calm down a little bit and stop trying to over-analyze things, you'll be better able to figure it all out? Did it ever occur to you that, despite your type preferences, you might have developed some skills in other cognitive functions that aren't part of your core type? It's true. Just because I prefer to use Ne-Ti-Fe does not mean I can't tack on some skill with using Se-Si-Ni-Fi-and Te. 

This desperate frustration about functions is really not necessary. It's like everyone feels so completely lost unless they know exactly what type they are and what functions they prefer. Type is a general tool about some basic cognitive processes we prefer to use. It isn't the "end all be all." Type helps us gain some insights into some parts of who we are, but it isn't going to unlock EVERYTHING about you, or someone else. You still have to do that one experience at a time. 

I'll be 45 in about six weeks, and _I'm still a work in progress_. In some ways, I'm a little further down the road, in others, I'm not. We all develop differently and we all have hidden strengths and weaknesses. Type is not going to help you with that. All it is going to do is give you some idea as to how you prefer to interact with yourself, and the world. You are more than your type. Your type is only a small part of who and what you are, and who and what you can become.


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## penny lane (Nov 21, 2011)

Depending on the person I might resent them saying they know how I feel but in general I would think they meant well or didn't know what to say. Sometimes it's just awkward someone wants to say the right thing but might not know what that is.


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## ConspiracyTheory (Apr 13, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> @ConspiracyTheory not gonna lie, it's hard for me to see Fe working in theory but not in practice. Because it's my dominant fiction and regardless if it is the lens through which I judge my life, regardless of if it works
> 
> That said, we just discussed on another topic how I can't judge, like my Fe is so strong that it's hard for me to view things objectively and place value judgments on them. I can do it socially - I can tell you that right now society is really excited about Vangers and doesn't really care about that movie with the alien guy in it - but could I tell you my favorite movie out right now?nid probably stumble through that as well. This is just one of Fe's many weaknesses.
> ".


Odd. Me too. I have to create a list of my favorites and my interests or I will forget them. 
It's embarassing to forget things you should know.
Someone asked me my favorite scary movie because I said I liked them. And my mind was blank, like I had to think about it. After they left it came to my mind. 28 weeks later is my favorite scary movie. How did I not think of that?

Im always open to hearing other people's interests and can see the positive and negatives without ever deciding how I feel about it. I usually agree with other people on any topic because I can see their side. Then I can agree with someone arguing the opposite because I see their side. I'm just neutral a lot.


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

ConspiracyTheory said:


> Odd. Me too. I have to create a list of my favorites and my interests or I will forget them.
> It's embarassing to forget things you should know.
> Someone asked me my favorite scary movie because I said I liked them. *And my mind was blank, like I had to think about it.* After they left it came to my mind. 28 weeks later is my favorite scary movie. How did I not think of that?
> 
> Im always open to hearing other people's interests and can see the positive and negatives without ever deciding how I feel about it. I usually agree with other people on any topic because I can see their side. Then I can agree with someone arguing the opposite because I see their side. I'm just neutral a lot.


Hmm, curious if this is function related. Myself I have "I like this" and "Eh, whatever" mind drawers. I wouldn't be able to tell whats my favorite anything expect maybe for sweets because chocolate.


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## ConspiracyTheory (Apr 13, 2014)

Greyhart said:


> Hmm, curious if this is function related. Myself I have "I like this" and "Eh, whatever" mind drawers. I wouldn't be able to tell whats my favorite anything expect maybe for sweets because chocolate.


"Interest and attention follow objective happenings and, primarily, those of the immediate environment. 

Feeling in the extraverted attitude is orientated by objective data.

If one has always known feeling as a subjective fact, the nature of extraverted feeling will not immediately be understood, since it has freed itself as fully as possible from the subjective factor, and has, instead, become wholly subordinated to the influence of the object.

In precisely the same way as extraverted thinking strives to rid itself of subjective influences, extraverted feeling has also to undergo a certain process of differentiation.

Feeling becomes subject to conscious control. "


Jung is saying exactly what we are saying about Fe.

When asked how I feel about a topic, I am not used to looking inside myself for these views.
I need an example to focus on, then I can see whether I agree with or disagree with it. Give me a specific item and I'll tell you what I think of it. In an objective way. That's how I feel about it.

Feeling what my own likes or dislikes are is hard. There is no outside data to look at, it's asking for subjective data.

Extroverted feeling is an objective view. So if you have Fe, you don't really know if you like or dislike something, but you know whether it seems "correct" or "agreeable".

Normally when people think of feelings, you think of a subconscious, subjective liking or disliking of something.

But when feeling is extroverted, you don't feel "feelings" the way most people describe them. Extroverted feeling wants to be objective. It doesn't look inside yourself. It wants to look outward at an object and consciously decide it is agreeable or disagreeable.


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## Greyhart (Oct 13, 2014)

ConspiracyTheory said:


> When asked how I feel about a topic, I am not used to looking inside myself for these views.
> I need an example to focus on, then I can see whether I agree with or disagree with it. Give me a specific item and I'll tell you what I think of it. In an objective way. That's how I feel about it.


Oh, yes. Situational. Yeah, I describe my ethics like this too. I need a concrete situation to tell what I feel about it.

Now that I think about it, isn't OP's posts are basically that^?


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