# Anime and Video Game Characters' Socionics Types



## ToriKago (Nov 29, 2011)

Since there's one for MBTI and enneagram, it's only natural....
I'll start:
*
Death Note:

*Light: LIE 
L: LII (Could be ILI, too)
Misa: SEE
Mello: SLE
Near: ILI
Takada: IEE
Ryuuk: ILE (Could also be SLE)
Rem: ESI

I'll probably add more later, but for now this is all I've got.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I actually think it's interesting that Light is such a stereotypical LIE in socionics but in MBTI people struggle to type him between INTJ, ENTJ and I've even seen some people suggest ENTP.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

*Bleach*

Ichigo: ESI (could also EII, would make his hollow's type his shadow/anima which makes more sense to me)
Rukia: SLI
Orihime: SEI
Ishida: LII (ILI could work too)
Renji: LSI

Isshin: ILE
Karin: LSI
Yuzu: IEI

Hollow Ichigo: LSE

Want me to type someone else from Bleach? Give me a holla in this thread


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## Humaning (Aug 29, 2010)

Bakemonogatari/Nisegatagari
Araragi - EII
Senjogajara - LSI
Kanbaru - SLE (probably Araragi's manifested anima)
Hanekawa - IEI
Karen - SEE
Shinobu - SLI
Cat Hanekawa - ESE?


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## ToriKago (Nov 29, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I actually think it's interesting that Light is such a stereotypical LIE in socionics but in MBTI people struggle to type him between INTJ, ENTJ and I've even seen some people suggest ENTP.


People have typed him as an ISTJ and an INFJ as well. I chose ENTJ in MBTI because it seems like he has inferior Fi. ('People who don't think that Kira is righteous are just as bad as criminals! Soon everyone will see that Kira is good!') Although I'm not so certain about Light being a LIE; inferior Si is a bit iffy.


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## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Bump.



Humaning said:


> Bakemonogatari/Nisegatagari
> Araragi - EII
> Senjogajara - LSI
> Kanbaru - SLE (probably Araragi's manifested anima)
> ...


I'd say:

Araragi - IEI
Senjogajara - EIE
Kanbaru - SLE 
Hanekawa - LSI
Karen - SEE
Shinobu - SLI
Nadeko - IEI >> SEI
Mayoi - ESE 
Kaiki - Gamma NT

*Fate/stay night:*

Shirou - ESI
Rin - LIE
Saber - LSI 
Gilgamesh - SLE 
Sakura - EII

*Gundam Universal Century:*

Amuro: SLI
Char: SLE
Lalah: IEI
Bright: LSE
Sayla: ESI
Kamille: ESI
Scirocco: EIE
Haman: IEI?
Judau: SEE
Quess: SLE
Banagher: EII


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Vers said:


> *Fate/stay night:*
> 
> Shirou - ESI
> Rin - LIE
> ...


I agree that Gilgamesh is SLE and I could see either ESI or EII for Shirou, as I'm only sure that he's a Fi base. However, I think that Rin is SEE, Saber SLI and Sakura SEI.


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## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Saber is, in my opinion, an archetypical LSI and couldn't be anything else. She exemplifies Ti base; resolute in following her principles (her chivalry especially, which will not be broken even if it puts at disadvantage), which are governed by the time/society she lived in. Also, quite clearly IJ temperament. SLI's from the Nasuverse would be the Shiki's (Tohno and Ryougi). Fe POLR? Saber appears cold, but she only suppresses her emotions to focus on her goals - she firstly sees herself as a knight and believes it unsightly for a knight to act in such a manner, that's her rational. Trying to be perfect, black and white thinking (her rigidity) seems to be the bane of her existence. 

Rin's entire act at school is to ward people off, and she's pretty dismissive and hostile towards people despite being actually nice. She makes decisions based on cold, rational logic and what's efficient (but this is often tampered by her morality and honor, like in the case with Shirou and even Shinji - she was simply going to ignore him at school before she knew about the barrier despite him being a master), etc. Where's the Se base/Fi-creative coming from? Maybe Arcueid is a SEE, but it's hard to say.

Why SEI for Sakura? Because of the emphasis on cooking in Heaven's Feel?


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Vers said:


> Saber is, in my opinion, an archetypical LSI and couldn't be anything else. She exemplifies Ti base; resolute in following her principles (her chivalry especially, which will not be broken even if it puts at disadvantage), which are governed by the time/society she lived in. Also, quite clearly IJ temperament. SLI's from the Nasuverse would be the Shiki's (Tohno and Ryougi). Fe POLR? Saber appears cold, but she only suppresses her emotions to focus on her goals - she firstly sees herself as a knight and believes it unsightly for a knight to act in such a manner, that's her rational.
> 
> Rin's entire act at school is to ward people off, and she's pretty dismissive and hostile towards people despite being actually nice. She makes decisions based on cold, rational logic and what's efficient (but this is often tampered by her morality and honor, like in the case with Shirou and even Shinji - she was simply going to ignore him at school before she knew about the barrier despite him being a master), etc. Where's the Se base/Fi-creative coming from? Maybe Arcueid is a SEE, but it's hard to say.
> 
> Why SEI for Sakura? Because of the emphasis on cooking in Heaven's Feel?


I see Saber's principles as Fi derived, and in general Te creative and Fe PoLR make sense considering that her logic is externally derived, but her ethical principles are not. Besides, the whole idea that she has about being a king is SiFi derived, and you can see in Fate Zero how Rider managed to shake her ideals, as she reacted to his Ne, as it's her DS and not her PoLR. Besides, your reasoning for Fe DS makes more sense if Fe is her PoLR. I suspect that you may confuse her as LSI because it also has 4D Ti and Si, being SLI's quasi identical type. Apart of that, from what I've noticed, she's Sakura's kindred, as both are Si bases.

You're seeing Se and Te in Rin's case, and you should know that the HA can be overused, so that explains why you may think that she's LIE. I don't know if you've read about the tsundere archetype, which is clearly Gamma SF. Her cognition isn't the one of an NT, as you notice how easily she makes ethical judgements, and she's also unable to see the consequences of her actions, acting recklessly in the moment, which would speak against being Ni ego. She has a clearly grounded energy as well.

LOL, I don't resort to that kind of reasoning. I get a SEI vibe from Sakura, because her way of being makes me cringe badly thanks to her SiFe. Heck, even her theme song as Angra Mainyu screams Alpha to me.


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## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Blue Flare said:


> I see Saber's principles as Fi derived


Why?



> Besides, the whole idea that she has about being a king is SiFi derived,


How? It was based on being perfect, to be right and just based on the principles of chivalry and knighthood, to be balanced (this all corresponds to enneagram one). "She strictly kept to the oath that a king is not human and that one cannot protect the people with human emotions." 


* *




"The felt that a human without emotion cannot rule over others, leading to several reputable knights leaving Camelot. She simply accepted this to be a natural event that is part of the process of government, isolating the fair king honored by her knights. Having abandoned her emotions from the start, she did not change her mind even if she was abandoned, feared, or betrayed. There was no right or wrong to someone who saw such events as trivial."






> and you can see in Fate Zero how Rider managed to shake her ideals, as she reacted to his Ne, as it's her DS and not her PoLR.


Huh? Alexander the Great (Rider) is even more obvious a SLE than Gilgamesh. Rider also didn't really shake anything given how resolute she still was in Fate/stay night. Hell, she even kills Shirou in one bad end to obtain the Grail.



> Fe PoLR make sense considering that her logic is externally derived


Saber is also highly responsive to Irisviel's Fe (she was highly likely Fe base).



> I don't know if you've read about the tsundere archetype, which is clearly Gamma SF.


I don't think so. I'll give you two examples that aren't Gamma SF - Lina Inverse (LIE, remarkably similar to Rin in many aspects), Asuka Soryuu/Shikinami (SLE, the latter fits the archetype far better and they're the same type). I doubt Haruhi is a Gamma SF despite the Se use (Ne > Se there, Fi Polr, but that's besides the point I guess). Confining the tsundere archetype to Gamma SF seems nonsensical since the criteria doesn't have much to do with how one process information and perceives the world as well as the variety of tsundere in anime.



> Her cognition isn't the one of an NT, as you notice how easily she makes ethical judgements


One prominent thing about the Gamma quadra is judging harshly and moving away from "bad" people, it wouldn't necessarily be indicative of an ethical type. 



> and she's also unable to see the consequences of her actions, acting recklessly in the moment, which would speak against being Ni ego. She has a clearly grounded energy as well.


What is this based on? Tohsaka is described as "making trivial mistakes at the worst possible moment", but not seeing the consequences of her actions and acting recklessly in the moment is not how I would describe her.



> LOL, I don't resort to that kind of reasoning. I get a SEI vibe from Sakura, because her way of being makes me cringe badly thanks to her SiFe. Heck, even her theme song as Angra Mainyu screams Alpha to me.


A small description of Sakura's character:


* *




She has a quiet personality, and all things considered is exceptionally patient and persevering.
Basically, she is a worrisome girl that never resents others (not even Shinji or Zouken), and always blames herself for everything.




She does not seem SEI at all with such an attitude.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Vers said:


> Why?


Because she creates ethical axioms, not logical ones. A Ti base wouldn't reason in that way since Fi is devalued, and she hadn't any logical reason for clinging to her ideals.



> How? It was based on being perfect, to be right and just based on the principles of chivalry and knighthood, to be balanced (this all corresponds to enneagram one). "She strictly kept to the oath that a king is not human and that one cannot protect the people with human emotions."
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


I'm not sure if she's a gut type to be honest.



> Huh? Alexander the Great (Rider) is even more obvious a SLE than Gilgamesh. Rider also didn't really shake anything given how resolute she still was in Fate/stay night. Hell, she even kills Shirou in one bad end to obtain the Grail.


Orly? seems like you should rewatch that part then:






Besides, Rider is Alpha extrotim, his way of dealing with information is NeFe and not SeFe like Gilgamesh'. Gil is clearly aristocratic and Alexander is democratic...



> Saber is also highly responsive to Irisviel's Fe (she was highly likely Fe base).


She's a SEI, therefore Saber's kindred, so that explains why she reacted well to her.



> I don't think so. I'll give you two examples that aren't Gamma SF - Lina Inverse (LIE, remarkably similar to Rin in many aspects), Asuka Soryuu/Shikinami (SLE, the latter fits the archetype far better and they're the same type). I doubt Haruhi is a Gamma SF despite the Se use (Ne > Se there, Fi Polr, but that's besides the point I guess). Confining the tsundere archetype to Gamma SF seems nonsensical since the criteria doesn't have much to do with how one process information and perceives the world as well as the variety of tsundere in anime.


I know Lina and she's not a Te base, and Asuka is a SEE. Do you want an example of LIE? have one here:






Cornelia is a LIE, and you see how factual and dry she is. She has this typical robotic tone which isn't present in Rin, Lina nor Asuka. 



> One prominent thing about the Gamma quadra is judging harshly and moving away from "bad" people, it wouldn't necessarily be indicative of an ethical type.


Well, you can notice that because Rin's Fi is far more nuanced than the Fi of a LIE. Her Fi is 3D and not 1D.



> What is this based on? Tohsaka is described as "making trivial mistakes at the worst possible moment", but not seeing the consequences of her actions and acting recklessly in the moment is not how I would describe her.


Again, compare her reasoning with Cornelia's and you will see the difference. Here I found another video of her, interacting with Schneizel who is EIE:








> A small description of Sakura's character:
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


That seems far more Alpha than Delta.

Suzaku is an EII, Kallen is ESI and Lelouch is ILI. Charles is likely LSI:





Mayuri is SEI, Kurisu SLI and Okabe ILE:






Do you see now why I fail to see Sakura as a Fi base?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@Vers Saber is unlikely a 1 and far more likely to be a 6. A 1 wouldn't struggle to try to live up to their namesake like she does.


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## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Blue Flare said:


> Because she creates ethical axioms, not logical ones.


I was honestly expecting less jargon. How does Si ego fit into any of this? 



> A Ti base wouldn't reason in that way since Fi is devalued, and she hadn't any logical reason for clinging to her ideals.


Adherence to a logical system of beliefs was her reason, your opinion of its practicality is irrelevant.



> Orly? seems like you should rewatch that part then:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not understanding where you're seeing Alpha values, valued Ne and devalued Se. All information elements deal with information and we use them all to varying degrees. In that scene Rider personifies Se ego, the general themes being willpower; desire; struggle; conquest; force. "The king must be greedier than any other." "He must laugh more loudly and rage for longer." "He must embody the extreme of all things, good and evil." " That is why his retainers envy and adore him." "And why the flames of aspiration to be as the king is can burn within his people.

Rider foremost acts according to his impulses and desires, this is his idea of kingship. His motivation for the Holy Grail is reincarnation in order to conquer the world. "And with nothing but my body, I shall defy both heaven and earth. That is the meaning of conquest. Thus it begins, then proceeds, and is finished. Such is the path of my conquest."

Rider's entire conflict with Saber was he felt she was not acting in accordance of his (and Gilgamesh's) idea of what kingship was. He believe a person should not live the way Saber did (remember my quotes about Saber in the last post). "You did not show them what a king should be." You're emphasizing a contrast between Gilgamesh and Rider, but they both came out with respect for another due to their similar views. Rider is also mostly inconsiderate of others, which I would attribute to Fi POLR. 

Rider inquires on what morals and reasoning Gilgamesh's principles on. 

Gilgamesh: "It is the law. My law, which I set down as king." 
Rider: "Perfect. To live according to one's own law is the epitome of kingship." "But still, I want the Grail so badly I can taste it. It's my style to take what I want. After all, Iskandar is the King of Conquerors, is he not?

Gilgamesh: "Right and wrong do not enter into it. You break the law and I will punish you. There is no place for discussion."

Rider grunts in agreement.

Rider: "The King does not devote himself. It is the nation and the people who devotes themselves to the King"
Saber: "Those are the words of a tyrants"
Rider: "Just so. We are heroes because we are tyrants." "However, if a king regrets his rule or its end, that king is nothing but a fool."
Saber: "You have no regrets about that end?"
Rider: "None. Not if it came to pass by my judgment and my retainers' sacrifices. Its destruction was inevitable. I shall morne and sheds for it. But I shall never regret."

Rider to Saber: "No, you don't understand at all. I suppose I'll have to show you exactly how a king should be."


* *




"Waver sees Rider as deserving of title of "King of Conquerors" because that which he strives to conquer most is not lands or material wealth, but the hearts of people, the toughest conquest that can be undertaken by anyone."

"Even when they died in battle after giving all they had, their faces still held a proud smile until the end. They’d be able to return to the image in their dreams, the evening-mist-covered seashore that they had once seen. A scene that they continued to long for in their hearts during their heroic crusading lives.

Their bodies may return to ash but they are loyal followers, they are true companions, one flawless cooperation with their king. The king had stronger desires than anyone else, was more magnificent than anyone else, was more easily angered than anyone else, pure and chaotic, a man who was more real than any other man."




Clear Fe hidden agenda. Rider was enamored with the physical and action. Once again, I see no Ne or Si emphasis anywhere.



> She's a SEI, therefore Saber's kindred, so that explains why she reacted well to her.


I specifically mentioned Fe. When Saber was perplexed (Iri: "I never get tired of watching you." Saber: "Is there something wrong with me?" Iri: "No, not at all." Saber: "When you laugh like that, there is some hidden meaning behind it. What is it? I want you to be frank with me.") by her apparently ambiguous demeanor and after Iri cleared it up, she was even more responsive. It suggests Fe DS+Ne polr, but that dialogue alone isn't not entirely conclusive by itself but their general dynamic of their relationship is and perhaps her relationship with Kiritsugu.



> I know Lina and she's not a Te base, and Asuka is a SEE.


Based on? 

Asuka's attitude adheres to Fi POLR/Fe Hidden Agenda (difficultly expressing her feelings towards other despite her joviality and behavior aimed at showing how popular and admirable she is), aristocratic, etc. 



> Cornelia is a LIE, and you see how factual and dry she is. She has this typical robotic tone which isn't present in Rin, Lina nor Asuka.


I've had too much of a fill of CG, but no idea on Cornelia's type.

Not all LIE have a monotonous tone of voice and remember Fe is the role function. That's not a really point against LIE typing.



> Well, you can notice that because Rin's Fi is far more nuanced than the Fi of a LIE. Her Fi is 3D and not 1D.


I'm not seeing it. Rin does not go into depth about her feelings and rejects even using them in her judgement (trying to give the appearance of using cold, rational logic instead, her preferred method of dealing with information is based on the external state of things - instead of making a judgment of Shinji's character to determine whether or not he was a threat, she worked off the facts and derived her conclusion of his viability as a master from them - and is her area of confidence)



> Again, compare her reasoning with Cornelia's and you will see the difference. Here I found another video of her, interacting with Schneizel who is EIE


What exactly is your point of contrast? Is Cornelia's moral outcry and reasoning meant to be less sophisticated than Rin's? 



> That seems far more Alpha than Delta.


That amount of belief in human kindness and potentially despite the atrocities, bottling of negative emotions, focus on self-improvement made me think Fi/Ne. Mayuri is nothing like Sakura beyond a few surface traits that can attributed to many types.



> Suzaku is an EII, Kallen is ESI and Lelouch is ILI. Charles is likely LSI


I disagree with every single typing here except maybe the last one. 



> Mayuri is SEI, Kurisu SLI and Okabe ILE:


I thought Kurisu was a LII, otherwise I agree. 



> Do you see now why I fail to see Sakura as a Fi base?


No.



> Saber is unlikely a 1 and far more likely to be a 6. A 1 wouldn't struggle to try to live up to their namesake like she does.


Your objection makes little sense, given how that is a characteristic of any enneagram one description I've seen ... constant striving to improve everything, feeling guilty for not living up to their likely impossible standards. 6 is the second most likely.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vers said:


> Asuka's attitude adheres to Fi POLR/Fe Hidden Agenda (difficultly expressing her feelings towards other despite her joviality and behavior aimed at showing how popular and admirable she is), aristocratic, etc.


LOL this made my day and I lost all potential respect for your ability to type right there. Also, just interrrupting, but afaik @Blue Flare never argued that Rider wasn't Fi PoLR/Fe HA, but Ne over Se base which perfectly demonstrates why both he and Gilgamesh actually agree over how to rule, since they are after all, business partners, and business partners share ideals of how to operate and lead in a work environment.



> Business relations (also known as look-alike relations) are similar to identity and kindred in that partners have half their functions in common — in this case, all the even-numbered ones. *This provides a certain commonality of methods and approaches and somewhat similar communication styles. Business partners rarely have serious problems understanding each other and don't need much time to get to know each other and find common ground (or define their differences). The psychological distance is naturally large enough that partners do not generally seek to know each other deeply. Rather, they are content to pal around with the other on a relatively superficial basis.* A change in location or life circumstances is usually enough to interrupt the friendship.





> *I.D. Vaisband, publications on Socionics*
> Relations of this kind usually progress smoothly and calmly.* Partners understand each other in the areas of their creative functions, which adds sincerity,* but they don't know how to help each other and improve each other's mood and morale. Business relations develop into rivalries of respective styles of behavior and promote constant "probing" of your competitor who doesn't yield to you in any respect. Business partners with eagerness seek out weaknesses in each other's positions.* These relations markedly improve in a mobilized state - partners quickly unite against a common enemy or a common problem - and worsen in calmer times when resentments over minor things begin to surface. Business relations are primarily based on logic. They make people more calculating, weighting and evaluating everything from a pragmatic point of view.* One logical plan is replaced by another while each partner insists on his own version. Feelings in business relations are entirely subordinated to logic of achieving success. Business relations reinforce power wielding abilities of both partners, making them more competitive, and encourage ability to realistically assess the balance of power. Business partner should not take on long-term projects. These relations encourage achievement of short-term objectives that yield tangible benefits. Business relationships are built on a balance of force. Unlike the superego relations, business partners don't try to maintain this balance but to disturb it to their favor. Over time partners begin to feel tired of continuous struggle for authority, leadership and relevance. In disputes they may not seek to find the truth, but instead probe for the weaknesses in each other's position. *Business partners seemingly use similar methods in dealings, but they are oriented towards completely different ends.* Competitive element of these relations increases, which throws back both of them. After re-evaluating their actions, partners become close again, but a new leap forward is followed by another setback. Each believes that the goal set by the other is wrong. In the later stages of business relationship all desire to be similar to each other is gone.





> *O.B. Slinko, "The key to heart - Socionics"*
> Business partners have the same functions of implementation, so their methods are alike. Communication in a business pair is always lively and long-winded. It has undoubted benefit: partners help each other develop their role-function, orient each other at solving problems, such that their contact resembles business discussion and cooperation. In dealing with your business partner, avoid exerting pressure on each other with your leading functions or communication will turn into an unpleasant verbal match.





> *R.K. Sedih, "Informational psychoanalysis"*
> These relations can be seen approximately as Identity plus Superego relations. The more developed both people are, the more their interests coincide - the more comfortable and beneficial these relations will be. In cases when both partners feel insecure in interaction they can hurt each other's weak role functions. This rarely leads to any serious consequences, however. *Due to partial overlap of worldviews, partners can easily come to a compromise if they so wish*. Light friction in business relations usually does not let these partner get too close. They maintain a certain distance, *and at the same time can be quite sympathetic and helpful to each other. *These relations worsen if partners give in to their desire to fit the other to own measure. Experience shows that this should be avoided. Trying to outperform each other, business partners obtain an opportunity to develop themselves. These relations can be very beneficial in terms of cooperation as each can provide his partner with interesting information, helping both of them to raise their prestige and capability.





> Your objection makes little sense, given how that is a characteristic of any enneagram one description I've seen ... constant striving to improve everything, feeling guilty for not living up to their likely impossible standards. 6 is the second most likely.


And how much have you read about the enneagram beyond superficial descriptions? Your direct need to correlate an expressed desire for perfection with type 1 belies that you probably haven't studied the system much in depth. To go on, superficial need for perfection e.g. types that may openly express a desire for perfection or wanting reality to be perfect can be attributed to several types e.g. 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7 that all seek to become perfect in their way respective ways, however, only type 1 actually experiences their very core of being as imperfect. Their strive towards perfection is less a consciously expressed attitude of wanting life to be perfect (actually, that is probably more typical for 3s or 7s or even 6s), but is a much more deeply felt and seated belief of thinking that their understanding of reality is the only perfect way of how it could be. It suggests a removal from and a attempt to recreate holy perfection, so 1s would are actually rarely likely to openly declare that they think the world _is_ imperfect, just like you will not see a type 8 declare that the world is good. This is because they deny this aspect of reality and rather laden it with their own egoic subjective point of view which they think is the only correct way to see things. 

The reason Saber cannot be a 1 are plenty, and one of them is the reason I already cited above. A recurring theme with Saber's characterization is that she has issues with faith. She does not believe in herself, her own strength or even that of her comrades'. She struggles with living up to a story of a heroic tale about who she is, feeling that the tale is much too grand and the shoes too big for her to fit into. She doesn't see herself as a strong, heroic kind of person. She doubts herself and people around her, having a constant sense of ambivalence towards trying to fill the roles of a supposed hero while at the same time feeling contrary. This is archetypal of type 6. She's lacking holy faith, the ability to believe in one's own inner strength and power and thus also inner conviction. Thus she ends up as a vacillating, doubting kind of person, struggling with the idea of needing to succeed, to be strong and powerful, while at the same time feeling invisible, small and insignificant. Her desire for perfection stems from type 6's connection to 3, because 3 has a desire to become god themselves. They seek to overcome and transcend humanity, become a little bit better than the common everyday man. It brings a very conscentious attitude to type 6, and an internalized sense of never quite being good enough but not in the 1-ish sense of the word of being imperfect, but more simply shameful for not being as outstanding as they think they need and should be. 

I could go on here and while one could perhaps make an argument for that Saber is 1-fixed in a tritype sense, she's definitely not a 1 core. She's not rhetorically nor behaviorally stiff like 1s are, due to their over-identification with superego and repressing all id desire.


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## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Entropic said:


> LOL this made my day and I lost all potential respect for your ability to type right there.


And I never had potential respect for your ability to type, so what's your point in mentioning this? I do not care nor let it cloud my judgment, even an ignoramus can be right sometimes. You're overemphasis on a purposefully short and superficial description is your prerogative. In contrast, your superfluous post was full of holes and more than enough to reason you have little clue.



> Also, just interrrupting, but afaik @Blue Flare never argued that Rider wasn't Fi PoLR/Fe HA.


Where did I mention he didn't? I was justifying the SLE typing in any way I saw fit (also partly due to Rider only being described as an Alpha extrovert by him), not specifically countering a typing of ILE as Blue Flare never actually explained himself in detail.



> which perfectly demonstrates why both he and Gilgamesh actually agree over how to rule, since they are after all, business partners, and business partners share ideals of how to operate and lead in a work environment.


LOL, no. You do not use your impression of intertype relations to justify typings of fictional characters, that's ridiculous and counter intuitive. You're aware they aren't human, right? Typing fictional characters only works in relation to gauging and typing their personality correctly, and the intertype relations not making sense is the norm. Business partners would also not necessarily share similar views on how to rule as king ... that's an inane line of reasoning. 



> And how much have you read about the enneagram beyond superficial descriptions?


A bunch, actually. Your likely eagerness to present some form of superiority may have led to your quick conclusions throughout your post, but I'm primarily concerned with the faulty reasoning and failure to recognize how Saber's fixation can clearly be correlated with the holy idea of perfection. 



> Your direct need to correlate an expressed desire for perfection with type 1 belies that you probably haven't studied the system much in depth. To go on, superficial need for perfection e.g. types that may openly express a desire for perfection or wanting reality to be perfect can be attributed to several types e.g. 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7 that all seek to become perfect in their way respective ways


You're attacking a straw man, note the absence of the claim a typing of six is unreasonable in addition to what I actually said there. "Superficial" need for perfection was not my sole reason for the typing, nor is that anywhere in the quote you're refuting (the mention of this trait somehow being ultimately unique to ones being nowhere said in this thread, however, it is their main compulsion). Let's also note how this isn't even a enneagram typing forum and how you're harping on my comments with all these presumptions already certain in your mind, attributing foreign opinions to me in order to them knock down for some odd reason before even begging the question. 

It's amusing how my actual point against your objection (the quote) was not addressed and you completely deviated somewhere else. Given how it was correct (you even say so above), your objection was indeed faulty and then you simply choose to build upon it. 



> This is because they deny this aspect of reality and rather laden it with their own egoic subjective point of view which they think is the only correct way to see things.


You said nothing I didn't know or couldn't gather from one of those superficial descriptions at first glance.



> A recurring theme with Saber's characterization is that she has issues with faith.


No, it isn't? Where are you getting this from? I doubt you've seen more than Fate/zero and the new anime with such an opinion. 

Saber bears so many burdens and is willing to sacrifice herself for her country DUE to her faith (a king is to become a martyr for their ideals, she suppresses her humanity - her ideals center around perfection, self control, self-sacrifice, isolation, and what is right and wrong). Even using excerpts from the type moon wikia your premise is made flimsy and bewildering. 

Saber only wanted to save her country from ruin as it fell during her reign and is thus her responsibility to correct what she saw her as imperfection, but remember she still clung to her ideals in fate/zero and majority of fate/stay night even afterwards. After F/Z that is when she begins to doubt her ability as king and wish to make it so she never pulled out the sword in the stone. What Saber failed to realize was the issue wasn't hers to burden (perhaps the following is where her focus on imperfection can be gleamed) but the knights' attitude. "If she shows weakness as a king, the knights will betray her" - this is said by the narrator, not Saber. They demanded knowingly impossible things, resented her, expected her slip up and planned treason; but Saber showed no weakness as King and they borne witness, this was attitude reinforced by her actual environment but was long ago a part of her, but was still betrayed due to isolation and being believed to not understand people's hearts ...). 

Saber's character development in FSN about learning to accept her past for what it was and that her wish cannot be granted as well as her apparent imperfections and living as more of her own person.

Excerpts from the VN:


* *




So that's what it means. She was only idolized. Many knights looked down on Arturia who looked like a small kid, and they did not approve of swearing their sword to her.

But because she drew out the sword that they could not, they had to obey her at least in form. They just accepted the disgrace, believing that it would pass.

Even if she drew the sword, she is just a child. Even with Merlin's help, she will fail soon enough. When that happens, they need to only take the holy sword away from her and reselect the king. That's what most of the knights thought.

But the results were different. The knight that just entered adulthood was a king without flaw. She brought peace to the fighting lords and immediately fought off the invading enemies. Of course, it wasn't because of the power of the holy sword. The holy sword only protects the king. It is the king's power that protects the country.

And in that way, she suppressed the knights with results. The protection of the holy sword works only against enemy swords. It does not help rule over people's hearts. She worked hard to be an ideal king.

And so, the knights had to follow their king from their heart. They suppressed their dissatisfaction with the young king, as they saw he was perfect. She tried to be an ideal king. Being an ideal king was the condition of their support. '''There was no room for the human, Arturia.''' The girl determined to be king. A great knight who pulled out the holy sword, who did not age from that moment on, and one who won twelve great battles. The more perfect she was, the more people kept away from her. The longer she stayed that way, the more isolated she became. That was her true identity.

But she still did well. No, she did too well. She defeated her enemies efficiently and minimized the victims in battle. No matter what kind of a war it is, a battle will have victims. So she believed she should make sacrifices before the war to prepare the army and to defeat the enemy efficiently.

She would exhaust one village to prepare the army, defeat the invaders before they could damage the land, and save ten villages. That was the solution she came up with as the king, and in truth, it was the best policy.

But the knights must have been unhappy. For them, only the invaders should die. It was only proper to win without allowing any victims. There is no need to sacrifice one's own territory before a battle. We will win, so there will not be any victims. There will not be any victims, so the king's actions are fruitless. That's what they thought.

Of course, that was just a fantasy. Once the battle began, the knights did not think about the small villages. It was only natural for them to trample over them as the small villages are not what they seek to protect. The knights say it is only natural to be destroyed by the invaders, but it is a great sin to destroy them with our own hands.

Of course, she knew that. But a king cannot allow her personal feelings to affect her decisions. She kills her emotions to make a decision, and the knights suppress their personal feelings to obey. And after many sacrifices and continuing victories, the country became stable.

The price of that was a revolt against the king. "King Arthur does not understand human feelings." One knight said so and left the castle. …It's a ridiculous story. Nobody wanted her to be human, but they revolted against her because she didn't have a human's feelings

The knights, who had been dissatisfied with the king for some time, became more dissatisfied after that one knight left. They pushed all problems onto her and cornered her.

Ruin was in sight. Death if she could not solve all the problems. Even if she did solve them, the result would be the same.

But such trivial things are of no concern to a king. Her mind will not change even if she is abandoned, feared, or betrayed. …Probably because she had her mind made up long before. She abandoned her emotions from the moment she decided to pull out the sword





* *




Pulling out the sword in the stone: 

"You should think this through before you grab that." Merlin says he is not trying to frighten her, but that she should stop. "You will not be human once you take hold of the sword." He also said that she would be resented by all humanity and die a miserable death.

She could not have been without fear. Because the magus showed her. The end she would face if she took the sword.

"No." But that just made the girl more determined. She nodded firmly, even when she was shown her future. The magus asks her if she is really fine with that.

"Many people were smiling. I do not believe it will be a mistake."

That's right. The girl only wanted to protect everyone. But to do so, she had to throw away the emotion of 'wanting to protect people'. …Because one cannot protect a country as king if one has human emotions.

She accepted it and pulled out the sword. She accepted it and swore to live as the king. So her heart would not change even if she was abandoned, feared, or betrayed. She threw away her heart. The young girl decided to protect in exchange for it.

Who would ever know of such a sublime oath? She chose to fight. No matter what. She still chose to fight. Even if there was inevitable solitary ruin waiting at the end.





* *




The battle of Camlann:

One knight usurped the throne while King Arthur was on a campaign, her country split into two, and a war began.
In the legend, it is said that knights and chivalry were utterly destroyed.

She slashed away the knights that once followed her and attacked the lands she once protected. The knights who sided with her died and her body was crippled.

There was nobody around her. That's normal. Nothing has changed. The only thing in her heart is her pride as the king. She knew of this end. But she still ran through her life because she believed something came of it.

That's why she has no regrets. If there is one regret, it is that the country is in ruin.



Other source:

* *




As a child: "Ector felt that he must raise her as a knight, and he wished for her to grow. He never needed to wish for such a thing, as she trained day after day to become stronger than anyone. She swore to bear her sword for the only reason that "only a king can save a ruined country headed for death" without ever being told such."

"Lancelot's affair with Guinevere was eventually revealed through the plans of traitors who hated Camelot, causing them to stand opposed. Altria did not see this inescapably unrighteous action as a betrayal, but instead understood Guinevere's sacrifice due to having concealed her gender."






> -snip-


Most of what you're mentioned is pure fanon and plain incorrect. Your understanding of Saber's character is dubious at best, another quick example being:



You said:


> She *doesn't see herself as a strong, heroic kind of person*. She doubts herself and *people around her*, having a *constant sense of ambivalence towards trying to fill the roles of a supposed hero while at the same time feeling contrary*. This is archetypal of type 6.


The bold is explicitly not true. Isn't the second sentence redundant? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your understanding of enneagram also leads you to believe anxiety and being worrisome is not characteristic of ones for some reason. That is a misunderstanding someone new to enneagram can rectify from widely available and easily accessible text. Simply wrapping it up in that all confining bow at the end is just silly and revealing.



> I could go on here and while one could perhaps make an argument for that Saber is 1-fixed in a tritype sense, she's definitely not a 1 core. She's not rhetorically nor behaviorally stiff like 1s are, due to their over-identification with superego and repressing all id desire.


I think you've only achieved demonstrating your misunderstanding of both Saber and enneagram.

If this is to be drawn out any further, would you mind giving your actual opinion on the socionic types of Fate characters or something equally relevant? At least the thread's getting activity albeit being limited to three people.


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vers said:


> And I never had potential respect for your ability to type, so what's your point in mentioning this?


Perhaps because I used to think there was legitimacy to it, but then not really. I dismissed it. 



> I do not care nor let it cloud my judgment, even an ignoramus can be right sometimes. You're overemphasis on a purposefully short and superficial description is your prerogative. In contrast, your superfluous post was full of holes and more than enough to reason you have little clue.


lol let's have at it then:



> Where did I mention he didn't? I was justifying the SLE typing in any way I saw fit (also partly due to Rider only being described as an Alpha extrovert by him), not specifically countering a typing of ILE as Blue Flare never actually explained himself in detail.
> 
> LOL, no. You do not use your impression of intertype relations to justify typings of fictional characters, that's ridiculous and counter intuitive. You're aware they aren't human, right? Typing fictional characters only works in relation to gauging and typing their personality correctly, and the intertype relations not making sense is the norm. Business partners would also not necessarily share similar views on how to rule as king ... that's an inane line of reasoning.


But you did. You explicitly stated that one of the reasons why both Rider and Gilgamesh got along was because you saw them as identicals. Also, you do realize this argument can be drawn even further, so if these characters are just fictional and all so thus intertype doesn't apply, then why should socionics and thus also sociotype, apply? The primary theoretical foundation of socionics is information metabolism and how this explains human social relationships aka intertype. Remove intertype and socionics becomes pretty pointless. 

And you are right, Blue Flare did not explicitly state that Rider was _not_ Fi PoLR/Fe HA, but like you accused me of, you operated as if Blue Flare did and this should entirely devalue their point that Rider belongs to the alpha quadra. I also don't see anything pertaining to Se in itself in the quotes you offered. I don't think the stuff you mentioned necessarily supports Se as an actually valued cognitive element. 



> A bunch, actually. Your likely eagerness to present some form of superiority may have led to your quick conclusions throughout your post, but I'm primarily concerned with the faulty reasoning and failure to recognize how Saber's fixation can clearly be correlated with the holy idea of perfection.


Then present it. 



> You're attacking a straw man, note the absence of the claim a typing of six is unreasonable in addition to what I actually said there.


I misread that part, my bad. I saw it later but cba to edit that in. My point stands as an argument against 1, though. 



> "Superficial" need for perfection was not my sole reason for the typing, nor is that anywhere in the quote you're refuting (the mention of this trait somehow being ultimately unique to ones being nowhere said in this thread, however, it is their main compulsion). Let's also note how this isn't even a enneagram typing forum and how you're harping on my comments with all these presumptions already certain in your mind, attributing foreign opinions to me in order to them knock down for some odd reason before even begging the question.


Does it matter that this isn't the enneagram forum? I wasn't the one who brought up enneagram in this thread. I merely choose to attack that part. 



> It's amusing how my actual point against your objection (the quote) was not addressed and you completely deviated somewhere else. Given how it was correct (you even say so above), your objection was indeed faulty and then you simply choose to build upon it.
> 
> You said nothing I didn't know or couldn't gather from one of those superficial descriptions at first glance.


lol, like what descriptions? 



> No, it isn't? Where are you getting this from? I doubt you've seen more than Fate/zero and the new anime with such an opinion.


Seen Fate/Zero, can't say it left me wanting to explore no, so not really. My point in relation to Saber stands in Fate/Zero, however. 



> Saber bears so many burdens and is willing to sacrifice herself for her country DUE to her faith (a king is to become a martyr for their ideals, she suppresses her humanity - her ideals center around perfection, self control, self-sacrifice, isolation, and what is right and wrong). Even using excerpts from the type moon wikia your premise is made flimsy and bewildering.
> 
> Saber only wanted to save her country from ruin as it fell during her reign and is thus her responsibility to correct what she saw her as imperfection, but remember she still clung to her ideals in fate/zero and majority of fate/stay night even afterwards. After F/Z that is when she begins to doubt her ability as king and wish to make it so she never pulled out the sword in the stone. What Saber failed to realize was the issue wasn't hers to burden (perhaps the following is where her focus on imperfection can be gleamed) but the knights' attitude. "If she shows weakness as a king, the knights will betray her" - this is said by the narrator, not Saber. They demanded knowingly impossible things, resented her, expected her slip up and planned treason; but Saber showed no weakness as King and they borne witness, this was attitude reinforced by her actual environment but was long ago a part of her, but was still betrayed due to isolation and being believed to not understand people's hearts ...).


I think it's fair to say that Saber pre-summon was a very different kind of person than post, however, my point about her character is post, not pre. With that said, I do not see the resentment in Saber, nor do I see her manifesting the suppression of her own desires. 



> Saber's character development in FSN about learning to accept her past for what it was and that her wish cannot be granted as well as her apparent imperfections and living as more of her own person.
> 
> Excerpts from the VN:
> 
> ...


lol, I couldn't care less about fanon. I'm not a fan of the anime or the verse, by any means so trying to attack me on that basis as a way to invalidate isn't going to work. If you are going to argue that my understanding of Saber, given how she was depicted in Fate/Zero, is correct, then offer an alternate interpretation of how she should be understood and how that runs contrary to how I saw her in Fate/Zero. 



> The bold is explicitly not true. Isn't the second sentence redundant? Correct me if I'm wrong.


How isn't it true? 



> Your understanding of enneagram also leads you to believe anxiety and being worrisome is not characteristic of ones for some reason. That is a misunderstanding someone new to enneagram can rectify from widely available and easily accessible text. Simply wrapping it up in that all confining bow at the end is just silly and revealing.


Since you accused me of straw men, here are you, creating a straw man, too. I never once said anxiety cannot be be a part of type 1 or denied that 1s cannot come across as neurotic. They are however of course, neurotic for very different reasons than 6s. 



> I think you've only achieved demonstrating your misunderstanding of both Saber and enneagram.


Your accusation of my understanding of the enneagram isn't valid, sorry. 



> If this is to be drawn out any further, would you mind giving your actual opinion on the socionic types of Fate characters or something equally relevant? At least the thread's getting activity albeit being limited to three people.


I don't have many opinions to share except that I think Rider is a blatant ILE and Gilgamesh SLE, at least typings I'm certain of.


----------



## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

I'm actually of the opinion this discussion is ultimately fruitless and a waste of time. A sudden realization when I was typing my response, but I like proving a point, so I go on. Saber's personality may not fully match a 1 but a 6 is even less likely, this goes back to the whole fictional character thing. The holy idea faith fits well in many aspects but other aspects are stretches, so I would like if you explained yourself (you likely are more knowledgeable in enneagram from what I've now seen in the enneagram section since I care little for it nowadays). I just find your objections to a one typing flawed and understanding of Saber's character weak atm.



Entropic said:


> But you did. You explicitly stated that one of the reasons why both Rider and Gilgamesh got along was because you saw them as identicals.


No, I did not. That's another straw man of your invention. I simply said "You're emphasizing a contrast between Gilgamesh and Rider, but they both came out with respect for another due to their similar views", meaning where is the point of contrast if they were in agreement (he emphasized a difference between them and used that video as an attempt to illustrate, he again didn't go into much detail). Their similar views have nothing to do with my typing of either.



> you operated as if Blue Flare did


Refusal to accept what I'm saying about my own reasoning and preferring your own limited interpretation is odd. I don't really care what you think here, so further talk is pointless about this.



> Then present it.
> 
> I think it's fair to say that Saber pre-summon was a very different kind of person than post, however, my point about her character is post, not pre. With that said, I do not see the resentment in Saber, nor do I see her manifesting the suppression of her own desires.


I did, you failed to address the excerpts (maybe I should've bolded the particularly important parts). For example, they directly contradicting your assertion that "She's not *rhetorically nor behaviorally stiff* like 1s are, due to their *over-identification with superego and repressing all id desire*." The bolded fits her to a tee. Her stand was that her idea of kingship was perfect despite lamenting it during F/Z and blaming no external force, wasn't it? I think that supports the one typing. 

Despite knowing and seeing a vision that she would be resented by all and die a miserable death, Saber still pulled out the sword and did not fear it. This contradicts this idea that there's a recurring theme about Saber having issues with faith:

"Many people were smiling. I do not believe it will be a mistake."
"So her heart would not change even if she was abandoned, feared, or betrayed. She threw away her heart. The young girl decided to protect in exchange for it."

Being abandoned, feared or betrayed is specifically stated to not be what drives her and the motivation behind her actions.

Saber acted primarily upon the demands of her superego and let it dictate her actions (much like Shirou, her ideal to save and protect everybody), striving against and suppressing her inner desires, subjective needs and feelings. *From the VN:* That is her heart that holds her country dear. It is the mind of a girl before she became a king. But it is not the heart of the king. 

At the point of her death is when her suppressed personality comes out and she laments her reign. She was purely following her selfish desires in Fate/Zero and FSN while still clinging to her ideals. The new addition is what causes her wavering, attempting to fix things that can't be fixed. Saber's encounter with Lancelot in F/Z is what changed her wish from "to be a better king by redoing her rule" to "to have never been king." 

"*Ruin was in sight. Death if she could not solve all the problems. Even if she did solve them, the result would be the same.*

But such *trivial things* are of no concern to a king. Her mind will not change even if she is abandoned, feared, or betrayed. …Probably *because she had her mind made up long before*. She abandoned her emotions from the moment she decided to pull out the sword"

Again, none of this in conflict with Saber's characterization in F/Z or FSN. 

"Lancelot's affair with Guinevere was eventually revealed through the plans of traitors who hated Camelot, causing them to stand opposed. Altria *did not see this inescapably unrighteous action as a betrayal, but instead understood Guinevere's sacrifice due to having concealed her gender.*" 



> Seen Fate/Zero, can't say it left me wanting to explore no, so not really. My point in relation to Saber stands in Fate/Zero, however.


You have little idea of what you're talking about because Fate/zero does not go into depth with Saber's backstory like the original story. Saber is also mostly the same in both stories, so it's irrelevant which specific story you're talking about.



> lol, I couldn't care less about fanon.


Not my point, I just meant what you wrote was essentially fanfiction and your interpretation has little support in the actual works.



> I'm not a fan of the anime or the verse, by any means so trying to attack me on that basis as a way to invalidate isn't going to work.


You showed little knowledge of the verse and the character, so I was within my right to question you and I happened to be right in the matter. That's all it was, you could still be right despite the lack of knowledge (but you not being so is my point in all this).



> If you are going to argue that my understanding of Saber, given how she was depicted in Fate/Zero, *is correct*, then offer an alternate interpretation of how she should be understood and how that runs contrary to how I saw her in Fate/Zero.


Bolded isn't true. How about firstly backing up anything you're saying?

I have, you just didn't address any of it. Saber is largely the same person as she was in Fate/stay night as well as her backstory and her character is not confined to Fate/zero, nor is it particularly expounded upon, so I'm not restricted in simply gathering info from either F/Z's LN or anime. Dismissing it as unrelated to Fate/zero seems like an effort to not counter the contradictions the texts brings in your interpretation.



> How isn't it true?


They're qualities specifically contradicted in the excerpts I posted. You're also making assertions without any evidence, remember that. Saber strictly follows and believes in traditional knightly and chivalrous values even when her life is in peril. Where is it expressed that Saber does not think she's heroic of all things? Saber did not doubt her ability to fulfill the role of King while performing her duty.



> Since you accused me of straw men, here are you, creating a straw man, too. I never once said anxiety cannot be be a part of type 1 or denied that 1s cannot come across as neurotic. They are however of course, neurotic for very different reasons than 6s.


I guess. You did, however, make a laughable sweeping generalization without going into details while expressing contempt for that very thing, so I couldn't just let it pass without mention. Why you would choose to deal with generalizations that can be applied to many types while attempting to refute a particularly typing is a mystery. Um, how about backing up anything you're saying with specific manifestations or citations if you're trying to prove a point ...


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vers said:


> I'm actually of the opinion this discussion is ultimately fruitless and a waste of time. A sudden realization when I was typing my response, but I like proving a point, so I go on. Saber's personality may not fully match a 1 but a 6 is even less likely, this goes back to the whole fictional character thing.


Again, you realize that argument goes both ways? If typing fictive characters because they are fictive and would thus not be able to ever fully embody the complexity of a human and thus also be typable in a personality typing system because of it, then why are you here arguing this in the first place? 



> The holy idea faith fits well in many aspects but other aspects are stretches, so I would like if you explained yourself (you likely are more knowledgeable in enneagram from what I've now seen in the enneagram section since I care little for it nowadays). I just find your objections to a one typing flawed and understanding of Saber's character weak atm.


I can admit that my understanding of Saber's character is weak. I'm mostly operating off memory of a not so memorable anime and less memorable character. 



> No, I did not. That's another straw man of your invention. I simply said "You're emphasizing a contrast between Gilgamesh and Rider, but they both came out with respect for another due to their similar views", meaning where is the point of contrast if they were in agreement (he emphasized a difference between them and used that video as an attempt to illustrate, he again didn't go into much detail). Their similar views have nothing to do with my typing of either.


Indeed, but at the same time you also stressed how both Rider and Gilgamesh shared values in how to rule and what the purpsoe of a king is, and emphasized several aspects of what you thought was characteristic of Rider's Se with the implicit meaning that Rider and Gilgamesh get along because they share cognition or something like that. It was very much an intertype typing that you used to justify this point and my point to bring in intertype was to show you that they could have that relationship without necessarily sharing Se and Ne, to prove that Rider does not have to be an Se-valuing type to agree with Gilgamesh. 



> Refusal to accept what I'm saying about my own reasoning and preferring your own limited interpretation is odd. I don't really care what you think here, so further talk is pointless about this.


And I don't care what you care about that either, so *shrug*. 



> I did, you failed to address the excerpts (maybe I should've bolded the particularly important parts). For example, they directly contradicting your assertion that "She's not *rhetorically nor behaviorally stiff* like 1s are, due to their *over-identification with superego and repressing all id desire*."


You merely operated on an assumption what this meant, but you didn't ask me what it meant or what I was referring to when it came to this part of his character. My perception of her not being "stiff like a 1" is highly subjective; so how can you refute it without knowing what I'm referring to? 



> The bolded fits her to a tee. Her stand was that her idea of kingship was perfect despite lamenting it during F/Z and blaming no external force, wasn't it? I think that supports the one typing.
> 
> Despite knowing and seeing a vision that she would be resented by all and die a miserable death, Saber still pulled out the sword and did not fear it. This contradicts this idea that there's a recurring theme about Saber having issues with faith:
> 
> ...


Why would 6s blame an external force? What you seem to describe here, in terms of fears, fits 8 better than 6. We can both agree on that she's not an 8. 



> Saber acted primarily upon the demands of her superego and let it dictate her actions (much like Shirou, her ideal to save and protect everybody), striving against and suppressing her inner desires, subjective needs and feelings. *From the VN:* That is her heart that holds her country dear. It is the mind of a girl before she became a king. But it is not the heart of the king.
> 
> At the point of her death is when her suppressed personality comes out and she laments her reign. She was purely following her selfish desires in Fate/Zero and FSN while still clinging to her ideals. The new addition is what causes her wavering, attempting to fix things that can't be fixed. Saber's encounter with Lancelot in F/Z is what changed her wish from "to be a better king by redoing her rule" to "to have never been king."


I don't see anything here contradicting a 6 typing. 



> "*Ruin was in sight. Death if she could not solve all the problems. Even if she did solve them, the result would be the same.*
> 
> But such *trivial things* are of no concern to a king. Her mind will not change even if she is abandoned, feared, or betrayed. …Probably *because she had her mind made up long before*. She abandoned her emotions from the moment she decided to pull out the sword"
> 
> Again, none of this in conflict with Saber's characterization in F/Z or FSN.


No, but it does not necessarily again, contradict 6 either. 



> "Lancelot's affair with Guinevere was eventually revealed through the plans of traitors who hated Camelot, causing them to stand opposed. Altria *did not see this inescapably unrighteous action as a betrayal, but instead understood Guinevere's sacrifice due to having concealed her gender.*"
> 
> You have little idea of what you're talking about because Fate/zero does not go into depth with Saber's backstory like the original story. Saber is also mostly the same in both stories, so it's irrelevant which specific story you're talking about.


I never claimed such a thing to begin with. I merely claimed that her characterization is different pre and post summoning.. 



> Not my point, I just meant what you wrote was essentially fanfiction and your interpretation has little support in the actual works.


If we are going to discuss enneatype, everything boils down to interpretation, since we cannot explicitly ask her what's her greatest motivation/fear in life. /shrug



> You showed little knowledge of the verse and the character, so I was within my right to question you and I happened to be right in the matter. That's all it was, you could still be right despite the lack of knowledge (but you not being so is my point in all this).


Sure, in a historical sense. Doesn't mean that my understanding of her underlying motivations have to be, though. 



> Bolded isn't true. How about firstly backing up anything you're saying?


To be honest, I genuinely thought you would understand it was a typo on my end and I didn't arse to go back and edit it to be proper. I guess I was wrong, lol. 



> I have, you just didn't address any of it. Saber is largely the same person as she was in Fate/stay night as well as her backstory and her character is not confined to Fate/zero, nor is it particularly expounded upon, so I'm not restricted in simply gathering info from either F/Z's LN or anime. Dismissing it as unrelated to Fate/zero seems like an effort to not counter the contradictions the texts brings in your interpretation.


I skimmed through most of it, didn't quite see your point. And my point is that while I'm primarily addressing Fate/Zero because this is the anime I saw, if you say Saber's characterization in it is not much different or anything from the other verses, then it just validates that my understanding can be extrapolated across the verses. I fail to see the validity of your objection in this regard. 



> They're qualities specifically contradicted in the excerpts I posted.


Didn't see it, necessarily.



> You're also making assertions without any evidence, remember that. Saber strictly follows and believes in traditional knightly and chivalrous values even when her life is in peril.


How is that inconsistent with 6-ness? It's very consistent with 6-ness. 



> Where is it expressed that Saber does not think she's heroic of all things? Saber did not doubt her ability to fulfill the role of King while performing her duty.


Uhm, part of how Saber was constantly criticized in Fate/Zero pertained to that her sense of duty did not seem to stem from a true notion of courage but instead rigidly indeed, stuck to her belief system as a crutch. While you are right that 1s _may_ also hold onto systems like this, because they think they are the perfect way to understand something, I think a 1 would actually take more pleasure in upholding the standard since they idealize their internally felt sense of perfection and it is what they desire the most. If you've watched the anime K, the character Munakata Reisi is a much better example of a 1 who takes on a system to uphold like this. I don't see that in Saber. 



> I guess. You did, however, make a laughable sweeping generalization without going into details while expressing contempt for that very thing, so I couldn't just let it pass without mention. Why you would choose to deal with generalizations that can be applied to many types while attempting to refute a particularly typing is a mystery. Um, how about backing up anything you're saying with specific manifestations or citations if you're trying to prove a point ...


Uhm, you did the same thing when you initially suggested type 1 for her and I questioned that.


----------



## Vers (Nov 28, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Again, you realize that argument goes both ways? If typing fictive characters because they are fictive and would thus not be able to ever fully embody the complexity of a human and thus also be typable in a personality typing system because of it, then why are you here arguing this in the first place?


Because I like to. While intertype relations can be evident between fictional characters due to them resembling human beings, it is the exception since quite often characters act contrary. Not sure why you're harping on this since I thought it was an attitude generally agreed upon.



> I can admit that my understanding of Saber's character is weak. I'm mostly operating off memory of a not so memorable anime and less memorable character.


It was alright.



> Indeed, but at the same time you also stressed how both Rider and Gilgamesh shared values in how to rule and what the purpsoe of a king is, and emphasized several aspects of what you thought was characteristic of Rider's Se with *the implicit meaning that Rider and Gilgamesh get along because they share cognition or something like that*.


Think of it like this - Gilgamesh expresses a sentiment, Rider agrees with that sentiment. The focus was on the sentiment, not the agreement between the two.



> my point to bring in intertype was to show you that they could have that relationship without necessarily sharing Se and Ne, to prove that Rider does not have to be an Se-valuing type to agree with Gilgamesh.


Sure. The only original point is lost here and this is becoming even more meaningless. Blue Flare would rather give you a thanks for any of your posts here rather than clarify himself. 



> so how can you refute it without knowing what I'm referring to?


What are you referring to, then? You could've simply elaborated in place of that if that was your thought process. 



> If we are going to discuss enneatype, everything boils down to interpretation, since we cannot explicitly ask her what's her greatest motivation/fear in life. /shrug


True. Getting to the bottom of that is the key, which Fate/zero does not provide a lot of detail on (which was the point of my objection to focusing on it despite Saber being mostly the same).


* *




*Saber:* Shirou - you are like me. That is why I can tell you what you have done wrong. As I am the same, I can tell what will happen to you if you continue on like this."
*Shirou:* "…But I haven't done anything wrong. My mistakes are countless of course, but I'm going to become a superhero like my father. *I can't do anything wrong.*"
*Saber:* "I am saying that is the wrongdoing. …Shirou, that accident was not your fault. It is not something you can be held responsible for. There is nothing for you to make up for."




Despite believing that, she still wanted to undo her rule. Also, note the bolded. Shirou fixates on the idea of doing the right thing and correcting what's wrong, which Saber recognizes in herself.

*Shirou:* "She only wished for others. She did not wish anything for herself in return."

Saber's doubts center around might not being the right king and that there was another hero who should have been. "There must have been a suitable king who would have been able to save the country I could not." There's an expressed difference between Saber pre and post summon, but only in that her doubts before becoming the king resurfaced.

"That is her heart that holds her country dear. It is the mind of a girl before she became a king. But it is not the heart of the king. The only one the king believed in was herself. To deny that would be to deny everything she has taken away."

Doubting her people and suspicion never factored into her mind. 



> Uhm, part of how Saber was constantly criticized in Fate/Zero pertained to that her sense of duty did not seem to stem from a true notion of courage but instead rigidly indeed, stuck to her belief system as a crutch.


Saber wasn't constantly criticized in this manner, that's an exaggeration. There were two at most examples that only specifically retained to her kingship. Her knightly values are only criticized by Kiritsugu due to his own personal hangups (she chastises him for his terrible methods, which make him a terrible man in her eyes - until Kiritsugu killed Lancer's masters, Saber, in her own words, placed faith in Irisviel's words and thus did not doubt him despite the mass of ambiguity. This contradicts this apparent theme of issues with faith you brought up even further.)



> If you've watched the anime K, the character Munakata Reisi is a much better example of a 1 who takes on a system to uphold like this. I don't see that in Saber.


Haven't.



> Uhm, you did the same thing when you initially suggested type 1 for her and I questioned that.


I was only making a passing comment and wasn't making an argument of it, a significant difference.

*Evangelion*

Shinji: IEI
Asuka: SLE
Misato: IEE


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Vers said:


> Because I like to. While intertype relations can be evident between fictional characters due to them resembling human beings, it is the exception since quite often characters act contrary. Not sure why you're harping on this since I thought it was an attitude generally agreed upon.


Makes the point of kind of moot and just seems like you brought it up in order to use it as a form of dismissal of my claims. 


> Think of it like this - Gilgamesh expresses a sentiment, Rider _agrees _with that sentiment. The focus was on the sentiment, not the agreement between the two.


You just wrote in this very paragraph that Rider agrees. You can do a semantics game, but I don't think it inherently changes anything, saying they are agreeing with sentiment or agreement. The point remains the same. 



> Sure. The only original point is lost here and this is becoming even more meaningless. Blue Flare would rather give you a thanks for any of your posts here rather than clarify himself.


Then mention them and continue that part. 



> What are you referring to, then? You could've simply elaborated in place of that if that was your thought process.


You could equally just have asked me, though. And by that I mean that whether someone seems high-strung the way 1s are high-strung, is a very subjective thing. You and I clearly have two different ways of understanding this. 



> True. Getting to the bottom of that is the key, which Fate/zero does not provide a lot of detail on (which was the point of my objection to focusing on it despite Saber being mostly the same).


Fair. 



> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you talking about pre or post summon?



> Saber wasn't constantly criticized in this manner, that's an exaggeration.


Ok, the word "constantly" may have been an exaggeration on my end, but the point still stands.



> There were two at most examples that only specifically retained to her kingship. Her knightly values are only criticized by Kiritsugu due to his own personal hangups (she chastises him for his terrible methods, which make him a terrible man in her eyes - until Kiritsugu killed Lancer's masters, Saber, in her own words, placed faith in Irisviel's words and thus did not doubt him despite the mass of ambiguity. This contradicts this apparent theme of issues with faith you brought up even further.)


Another point here is that people don't always need to open criticize - but that they also feel that her actions are situationally inappropriate like her inability to act in situations where she should but is not etc. People don't need to openly criticize her lack of action, as it is inferred in how the scenes are conveyed. 



> I was only making a passing comment and wasn't making an argument of it, a significant difference.


My point is that you were the one who brought up the enneagram in here, though. Not that it matters.



> *Evangelion*
> 
> Shinji: IEI
> Asuka: SLE
> Misato: IEE


I only agree on Misato, not Asuka and Shinji. Shinji EII 6/9, Asuka SEE 3, Ritsuko SLI 4, Misato IEE 7, Kaji IxE, likely ILE 7, Toji beta ST 8, leaning LSI. I don't find Gendo and Rei necessarily typable though there's an argument that Rei could be a 5.


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