# Ti users



## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

You guys ever find that you come to more realizations, a better understanding of things, when you think out loud?

As in it helps you to develop on your thoughts and spot things you hadn't realized before?

It certainly leads me onto new thought patterns I hadn't conceived when I was inside my head, I only really notice this when I explain things to others - ways to do things better. Or when I'm presenting.

I find it also helps me to feel more decisive, confident about the decisions I make and conclusions that I come to. 

Unless this is more my Ne surfacing when I start to express my thoughts out loud. However, answers are still wanted.

I also find that I think better when I'm moving around, or I'm dressed formally (shirt, shoes).

Though I do have a natural propensity to think inside my head. My thoughts often get jumbled together and overlap when I'm inside my head, so speaking aloud helps me to follow a straight line of reasoning.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

I dont get this thinking out loud thing. 

Why cant you just talk to yourself in your head without making the sound ? Isnt it the same thing essentially ?


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

TruthDismantled said:


> You guys ever find that you come to more realizations, a better understanding of things, when you think out loud?
> 
> As in it helps you to develop on your thoughts and spot things you hadn't realized before?
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness. I have come to these exact same realizations. I now 100% think you're an ENFP. You don't understand how Te this just was, heheh. An introverted Ti user feels no compulsion to share their discovery or understanding--they can discover new worlds of understanding, yet feel it too personal to share. Extraverted Ti users might be much more inclined to share; however, it is not necessary for them to. As an extraverted Te user, it is essential for me to interact with others in order to revise and enhance my understandings. I need to work with the material, which I assume to be more of Te thing, in order to understand it. The dichotomies mess up this understanding in attributing working with the material to S and understanding the concept to N. They're wrong. It's a thinking thing.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

crashbandicoot said:


> I dont get this thinking out loud thing.
> 
> Why cant you just talk to yourself in your head without making the sound ? Isnt it the same thing essentially ?


See last paragraph.

Thinking out loud helps me reflect more on what I've said, it helps me to avoid distraction because it almost blurs out other unrelated thoughts.

It almost brings conviction to my thoughts, makes them more tangible to me.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

Raawx said:


> Oh my goodness. I have come to these exact same realizations. I now 100% think you're an ENFP. You don't understand how Te this just was, heheh. An introverted Ti user feels no compulsion to share their discovery or understanding--they can discover new worlds of understanding, yet feel it too personal to share. Extraverted Ti users might be much more inclined to share; however, it is not necessary for them to. As an extraverted Te user, it is essential for me to interact with others in order to revise and enhance my understandings. I need to work with the material, which I assume to be more of Te thing, in order to understand it. The dichotomies mess up this understanding in attributing working with the material to S and understanding the concept to N. They're wrong. It's a thinking thing.


I have a lot reason to believe I use Ti/Fe though, so it brings my supposed use of Te into doubt. 

But yes I certainly need to work with material I intake. I need examples, statistics, outside opinions. I enjoy correcting people, teaching them things, doing things as efficiently as possible.

I think my feeling function, whichever orientation, is quite out of whack so can't really draw anything reliable from there.

As a strong Ne user it's fairly easy to find justification for my use of pretty much any function so I'm not sure what it would take for me to fully commit one way or the other.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

TruthDismantled said:


> See last paragraph.
> 
> Thinking out loud helps me reflect more on what I've said, it helps me to avoid distraction because it almost blurs out other unrelated thoughts.


I did see the last paragraph but i dont know what 'thoughts jumbling' can be, especially when you are just talking with yourself inside your head. Can you clarify that ?


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## Raawx (Oct 9, 2013)

TruthDismantled said:


> I have a lot reason to believe I use Ti/Fe though, so it brings my supposed use of Te into doubt.
> 
> But yes I certainly need to work with material I intake. I need examples, statistics, outside opinions. I enjoy correcting people, teaching them things, doing things as efficiently as possible.
> 
> ...


I went through a period where I thought I was an ENTP. Other people thought I was an ENTP. I just accepted it. Your rationale is very similar to that of an ENFP. I know it might be weird to identify as a feeling type, when you feel like a thinking type. I mean, I totally relate to that. O thought I was Ne-Te ENTP for the longest time. Then I believed I was a normal time. Maybe you don't realize it now, but you're an ENFP.

Plus, it's not uncommon for male female auxiliaries to under-develop their feeling functions. I've seen many male ExFPs and IxFJs in the same predicament.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

crashbandicoot said:


> I did see the last paragraph but i dont know what 'thoughts jumbling' can be, especially when you are just talking with yourself inside your head. Can you clarify that ?


When I'm contemplating things in my head, I often notice interesting patterns between current thoughts and past memories or one train of thought links on to something unrelated.

So I could be thinking about why someone behaved unusually rudely in a family gathering. Then in thinking about it I would think about the fact that no one else noticed it, then that would make me question whether it was all in my head. So all these tangents would be created while I've lost track of why I started the train of thought in the first place. This often happens in arguments. Someone asks a not entirely related point, which I answer directly, then he counters. Suddenly I forgot what the originally argument was. 

So voicing my thoughts out loud keeps them more linear.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

Raawx said:


> I went through a period where I thought I was an ENTP. Other people thought I was an ENTP. I just accepted it. Your rationale is very similar to that of an ENFP. I know it might be weird to identify as a feeling type, when you feel like a thinking type. I mean, I totally relate to that. O thought I was Ne-Te ENTP for the longest time. Then I believed I was a normal time. Maybe you don't realize it now, but you're an ENFP.
> 
> Plus, it's not uncommon for male female auxiliaries to under-develop their feeling functions. I've seen many male ExFPs and IxFJs in the same predicament.


You may be right, I certainly haven't ruled it out altogether. Damn I sound so formal online, I'm actually not in real life. And my username was going to be changed to something like EggsandBeans or some other random crap but I end up going for something serious and kind of annoyingly quirky and unoriginal every time :blushed:

Dat Fe tho


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## Brother (Sep 21, 2013)

Absolutely. It even helps typing it out, like I do when replying to some threads, or in PMs with my peers. So I'll answer your question, but as with every a goddamn one of my posts, I have to start out with some necessary basics, for context. It'll get dry and theoretical, but I assume you like that shit, being an INTP.

I'll begin with our dauntless heroine.

Jerre Levy is the most important Jungian researcher you've never heard of. She doesn't know it, herself, of course, nor does the guys at MBTI, because as any serious researcher she views Jungian typology as a populistic, quaint scam that cons amateurs out of their money by masquerading the human psyche as simple enough that people may feel a sense of control.

When the MBTI people occasionally look up from counting moolah, they view other researchers as biased party poopers.









_(Pictured: Thomas G. Carskadon of the Myers-Briggs Foundation)_

Now, to the point. Dr. Levy is crucially important through her research on split-brain patients. That is, sufferers of epileptic seizures so bad that the only treatment is severing the connection between the two halves of the brain(the neural bridge known as the _corpus callosum_). She worked directly with Roger Sperry, the pioneer who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on exactly split-brain patients. She knows her shit quite well.

Our girl Jerre seems to think that although our brain works as a whole, and has plasticity enough to compensate for even the complete removal of half the brain(hemispherectomy), the halves have their specialisation. The right hemisphere is more involved in processing holistic reasoning, the left hemisphere is more involved in linear reasoning. In the words of her fellow neuropsychologists Phelps & Mazziotta(1997): _"Hemispheric specialization does not necessarily signify unique properties of one hemisphere, but merely an advantage of one hemisphere over the other for a specific task in certain situations."_

What she means, is that both hemispheres work together for every function of human thought, both linear and holistic processing is involved simultaneously, but different tasks call for different cooperations. The empiricism and the conclusions drawn have obvious applications for interpretation of Jungian cognitive functions. Ahem.









_(Pictured: My present level of comprehension, and also my literal facial expression right now)_

Where that puts us, is that the left hemisphere better handles linear reasoning. In Jung theory, this is known as _introverted processes_. Holistic reasoning is the attending to a large field of stimulus, either a chaotic visual representation, or a large and complex theoretical construct. Also known as _extraverted processes_.

Preference for linear or holistic thinking makes one introverted or extraverted. Xi-dom or Xe-dom, to dumb it down even more.

For INTPs and ENTPs, our main mode of perception is Extraverted Intuition. The summary of the summary of the short version is that Ne preference is a metaphor for the capacity of a given subset of our working-memory; and therefore the threshold at which a connection between two things may become conscious. The subset of working-memory in question is the semantic relationships and general nature of the big picture. The whole field of stimulus, from what we see to what we hear and are already thinking of.


* *




For Ti's sake I'll use a numerical metaphor: Imagine an idea X. The stronger the correlation with X, the higher a thought Y ranks on a scale to 10. Fewer ideas have high correlation scores; there's many more Y=7.8 than there are Y=8.8. The Ne threshold I mentioned, is at what Y score a thought is activated from long-term storage into working-memory processes(the active subconscious), and from there possibly to conscious attention. The more we can fathom, the lower the threshold, the more ideas we can entertain at once, the greater chance one of them will through some freak process randomly pop into our head.

Now, if we think hard about several things, their correlation scores intersect, and items highly correlative of several of the concepts we're thinking of, will be amplified.




If you're with me this far, you've understood that NeSi with Ne preference is a right-brained function, judging by Jerre Levy's definition. It floods us with information, but it doesn't allow for in-depth analysis. And as long as we're left to our own devices, that's generally what we do, analyse connections. Until we open our mouth, metaphorically speaking.

For an overwhelming majority of people - 98% of those with strong right-hand preference - the major language areas of the brain are located in the left hemisphere. Suffering brain injuries in the left hemisphere lead to much greater impairment of language than the same lesions on the right hemisphere.

My theory is that activation of the language centers fosters a wider activation of the left hemisphere, thus increasing 'introverted' processing with use of, for us ENTPs and INTPs, Ti and Si. Activation of our linear, analytic, "deeper" cognitive functions makes it easier for us to consolidate the chaotic wholeness of our Ne into deliberation of meaningful units of knowledge.

I also have a variant theory. Putting your thoughts "out there" allows for comprehension and processing across several spectrums. Split-brain patients can sometimes experience that one brain half becomes a little quarrelsome, such as both buttoning and un-bottoning a shirt at the same time. That's because one half of the brain makes a decision based on sensory clues, and the other half makes a different decision. Speaking out loud may coordinate the decisions, so that announcing one's intentions brings the mute, disconnected hemisphere on board with what's getting done.

So it stands to reason that speaking out loud may help to coordinate hemispherical efforts also in healthy people, not replacing but amplifying the internal cross-hemispheric pathways. Putting patterns of thought originating in one half out there so that sensory clues of the one, internal process may be simultaneously experienced by both halves, could also account for the feedback loop of Ne and Ti where, spoken out loud, ideas both generate linear reasoning and ideas surrounding their possibilities, because leftbrained and rightbrained processes of Ti and Ne are both activated to a greater degree than silent thought could emulate.

My variant theories are, of course, not mutually exclusive and there can be truth in either both or none, alternatively.

That's my take on why it helps to communicate our ideas.









_(Pictured: A manifestation of my Fe impulse to be self-depricating in order to conform to expectations of humility and social awareness of tl;dr)_


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

Brother said:


> Absolutely. It even helps typing it out, like I do when replying to some threads, or in PMs with my peers. So I'll answer your question, but as with every a goddamn one of my posts, I have to start out with some necessary basics, for context. It'll get dry and theoretical, but I assume you like that shit, being an INTP.
> 
> I'll begin with our dauntless heroine.
> 
> ...


Those pictures were pretty hilarious, I also have trouble not mentioning the fact that one of my posts is fairly excessive when they are. Use of tl;dr = Fe lol.

I only wish I could see the second image you uploaded haha.

Yeah I saw a graph once in which the functions were placed as either left hemisphere or right hemisphere dominant. Descriptions given to left-hemisphere seem to be the embodiment of Te and right-hemisphere the embodiment of Ne lol. Though I think Pe was right hemisphere while Je was left hemisphere, with Pi being left hemisphere and Ji being right hemisphere. This may be a different theory I was looking at.

You think you applied Levy's work well in trying to explain why speaking out loud helps with more varied and thorough thought processing, encouraging certain brain areas over others for instance. You should check out a TED talk by 'Jill Bolte Taylor'. She is a psychiatrist who herself had a stroke in her left-hemisphere I think it was and she basically explains their differences, how they interact, etc. It definitely supports this idea of the right hemisphere focusing on past and future, thinking in images, kinesthetic learning, bodily sensations. She also talks about her experience in real time as her left-hemisphere would shut down and restart over and over, experiencing only the energy around and feeling unable to separate the subject from the object.

Interesting stuff.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

I can sort of relate to this, to an extent. 

Before I say my thoughts I've already basically come to all the conclusions on my own. I don't really feel like I need others input on the matter. So the conclusions are already there.... but typically in a very un-userfriendly way and temporary way until I add more to it. 

And then come situations like this now (whether that be typing, teaching, talking to someone, pretending to talk to someone in my own head), there comes the organizing factor. Attempting to synchronize my thoughts/conclusions/views into user-friendly ways. This takes more time, because understanding something and expressing it are two very different things. While I understand it, kind of forcing it out in the open makes me almost view my own information from a different perspective simply by saying it in that user-friendly way. 

I don't do it for other people's interpretations, I do it very much for myself. I do it more for a different perception of my own thinking. Which is often why I "talk to people in my head" and imagine what it is I would say out loud to a certain person (without even caring for their reaction or ever even taking the extra step of telling them irl). And even this is with specific types of information. 

When I form new conclusions/idea I will get so fucking excited but verbally expressing it to someone can be so... frustrating, because of that extra step, because you can't exactly go back and rewrite/retweek which results in the pauses when Ti users talk about certain things, I believe it's that synchronizing process. . Because it forces you to convert that thinking into a step by step form. Forming it in an understandable way for others. But this lack of need for their input probably makes it come off as conceited?

It could come off occasionally like I just enjoy hearing myself talk, meanwhile I'm simply trying to synchronize my ideas/conclusions and coming up with new ideas as I say it and attempting to incorporate them as I go (perceiving function playing a role). It has nothing to do with the other person, it has to do with hearing it from a different perspective (again, often why I talk to people in my head instead because it's easier to go back and rewrite). 

Just like this post. I've edited it over 10 times already. But I still feel like it's not getting the actual point across as well as I could.


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

> Which is often why I "talk to people in my head" and imagine what it is I would say out loud to a certain person


I often do this too, btw. But i never feel any need to actually open my mouth and say the words out loud. 

I assumed, all people talked to people in their heads and didnt find this significant. I'm curious now.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

TruthDismantled said:


> When I'm contemplating things in my head, I often notice interesting patterns between current thoughts and past memories or one train of thought links on to something unrelated.
> 
> So I could be thinking about why someone behaved unusually rudely in a family gathering. Then in thinking about it I would think about the fact that no one else noticed it, then that would make me question whether it was all in my head. So all these tangents would be created while I've lost track of why I started the train of thought in the first place. This often happens in arguments. Someone asks a not entirely related point, which I answer directly, then he counters. Suddenly I forgot what the originally argument was.
> 
> So voicing my thoughts out loud keeps them more linear.


That's how I saw it.

Ne is web-like and spatial in nature. It radiates outward in all directions with great speed and everything gets all tangled up.

Ti is linear and summarizing. You're boiling things down to their rational essence.

Saying it out loud and/or writing it down can be helpful because you're forced to cut off a lot of that radiating web. Yes, you lose a lot of connectivity, but then again, you've pruned things back to a few basic concepts.





crashbandicoot said:


> I often do this too, btw. But i never feel any need to actually open my mouth and say the words out loud.





crashbandicoot said:


> I assumed, all people talked to people in their heads and didnt find this significant. I'm curious now.




I usually talk in my head or write things down (as my way of "extraverting" them).

Although it's funny on occasion, where although I'm by myself, I catch myself talking to myself out loud. It makes the thoughts more real in some ways... or maybe it's just what happens when a person spends too much time alone.


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## Bricolage (Jul 29, 2012)

Jennywocky said:


> That's how I saw it.
> 
> Ne is web-like and spatial in nature. It radiates outward in all directions with great speed and everything gets all tangled up.
> 
> ...


How would Ni be then?


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## Brother (Sep 21, 2013)

TruthDismantled said:


> Those pictures were pretty hilarious, I also have trouble not mentioning the fact that one of my posts is fairly excessive when they are. Use of tl;dr = Fe lol.
> 
> I only wish I could see the second image you uploaded haha.


It's definitely Ti-Fe, writing so much. Explaining an intuitive thought is difficult enough, if people can't be sure that you're absolutely 100% rooted in good empiricism. So if I make sure everybody's aware of the facts before I explain how I think all the facts are linked, it satisfies my people-sensitive Fe and my Ti, both, as well as letting my intuition off its leash and chase the neighbor's kids.


* *





The second picture, since it didn't show.









[/QUOTE]




TruthDismantled said:


> Yeah I saw a graph once in which the functions were placed as either left hemisphere or right hemisphere dominant. Descriptions given to left-hemisphere seem to be the embodiment of Te and right-hemisphere the embodiment of Ne lol. Though I think Pe was right hemisphere while Je was left hemisphere, with Pi being left hemisphere and Ji being right hemisphere. This may be a different theory I was looking at.


Ugh. I'd love for simple explanations, but if anything neuroscience is the art of scientific shrugs. There _is_ a binary division between hemispheres in some fashion, as well as the involvement in cognitive functions, and I'd love to make heads and tails of it, myself, but any graph with some pin-the-donkey's-tail approach is barely worth a chuckle from a professional view. I intend to examine Nardi's EEG research on functions alongside Levy's research as soon as the university library can find our copies and release the subject matter to me.



TruthDismantled said:


> *You think you applied Levy's work well in trying to explain why speaking out loud helps with more varied and thorough thought processing, encouraging certain brain areas over others for instance.* You should check out a TED talk by 'Jill Bolte Taylor'. She is a psychiatrist who herself had a stroke in her left-hemisphere I think it was and she basically explains their differences, how they interact, etc. It definitely supports this idea of the right hemisphere focusing on past and future, thinking in images, kinesthetic learning, bodily sensations. She also talks about her experience in real time as her left-hemisphere would shut down and restart over and over, experiencing only the energy around and feeling unable to separate the subject from the object.
> 
> Interesting stuff.


Did you mean "I think you applied it well", or did you actually mean to acidically state "You think you applied it well"? If it's the latter, I'm kind of stuck at hearing Tywin Lannister's voice when reading it in my head, dripping with sarcasm.









_"Leads you to falsely assume excellence in your own fatally aggrandized ideas. Which is why you're posting mad theories on some backwater forum, and I have edited the Westerlands Psychological Review for a decade. You're excused, boy."_

I think I actually had a professor like that. Except, you know, not a Machiavellian feudal warlord.

Jill Bolte Taylor, TED Talk. I will check that out as soon as I can, that actually sounds incredibly illuminating. I like the challenge of taking fringe science and finding the actual merit in it. MBTI and hemispheric function locality both have tons of introspective, unscientific proof, and they are both kinda sorta frowned at. I can't wait to rub whatever I find in people's faces.


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## Distort (Aug 31, 2012)

I hardly ever think out loud. Quite often, I'll be imagining myself interacting with someone, explaining my thoughts to them, though. And after I have developed and become confident in said thoughts, I'll enthusiastically present them to someone in the _real_ world. I also manically pace around a lot too, and if in the house one my own, you'd find me wandering absent-mindedly around all the rooms, writing notes down when necessary.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Not verbalising my thoughts, but writing them out does help me organize and clarify--ie, think things through.


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Nope.


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## TruthDismantled (Jan 16, 2013)

Brother said:


> It's definitely Ti-Fe, writing so much. Explaining an intuitive thought is difficult enough, if people can't be sure that you're absolutely 100% rooted in good empiricism. So if I make sure everybody's aware of the facts before I explain how I think all the facts are linked, it satisfies my people-sensitive Fe and my Ti, both, as well as letting my intuition off its leash and chase the neighbor's kids.
> 
> 
> * *
> ...


Lol nah it was a genuine typo, or was it!?

I thought the picture of John Cena was your reaction to the picture not showing haha, not the actual picture re-posted, or was it!? (that one's a serious question btw)

Yeah my computer crashed half way so I only caught half of the video unfortunately. Also forgot where I found it and youtube takes long to type, even though I'm currently typing..

Btw I read the other half to your post but somehow the reply quote thing messed up


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