# The problem with me...



## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

I CANNOT figure out if I'm an E or an I! I think I'm definitely figuring out that I'm STJ. I originally figured I was ISFJ but I'm leaning towards ISTJ or ESTJ. I'm intensely in my own head and very logical and ordered but I can't seem to decide if I'm ESTJ or ISTJ because I work in customer service and I'm really quite excellent with customers, like, brilliant honestly. I can make them smile and if you met me you'd immediately say I'm an E because I'm just incredibly outgoing but underneath it all I'm so insecure that I'll say the wrong thing or that I'm embarrassing myself (and so compliments and customer comments make me feel confident if I do things right). But then I have no meaningful relationships in my life and I'm quite content with spending all my time alone in my room. I like talking to my mom and she's about the only person I open up to 100% because I've just been wronged so many times I don't trust people immediately (or at all, really). I'm wondering if I'm introverted or if it's the depression/anxiety that makes me want to be alone. I just don't think I gain energy much from being with people? It's probably the opposite? But at the same time I am a complete leader and manager and I'm vocal about plans and actions.

I think I'm Te - Si but it's a fine line because I could be Si - Te..

It's like I don't have an issue with being shy, in fact I'm so afraid of being socially awkward I introduce myself and make small talk but it's almost uncomfortable because it isn't sincere? It's like a show I put on?

Complicated, eh?


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## Daniel_James_Maher (Feb 11, 2013)

You sound a lot like an introvert to me. Introverts can be confident and leaders no problems but there is always that uncomfortable feeling like we are being fake. Classic, classic introvert.

More information on introverts here (courtesy of someone):
Caring for Your Introvert - Jonathan Rauch - The Atlantic


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

Daniel_James_Maher said:


> You sound a lot like an introvert to me. Introverts can be confident and leaders no problems but there is always that uncomfortable feeling like we are being fake. Classic, classic introvert.


Thanks so much! After reading that article, as well, I'm without a doubt an introvert! Haha! 

So where my confusion now lies is in the dominant function I exhibit? So it would be Si and not Te?


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## Daniel_James_Maher (Feb 11, 2013)

bookworm95 said:


> Thanks so much! After reading that article, as well, I'm without a doubt an introvert! Haha!
> 
> So where my confusion now lies is in the dominant function I exhibit? So it would be Si and not Te?


Glad to help. Si is dominant for ISTJs, Te comes in second.


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

E/I is a measure of expressiveness, not social skills. One of the give-aways is in how patient you are. Patient as in how fast you want life to move around you. If you tend to be in a hurry, wanting to get something done quickly, stamping your foot (figuratively, if not literally;-), add your voice to the discussion, and it comes out before you really think it through, then you are probably an extrovert. 

If you would rather listen, observe, think carefully about what you are going to express before you express it, then you are probably an introvert. 

Also, extroverts are extremely sensitive to stimuli and, as babies, they were the ones who gave their mothers migraines because they hated being asleep when so much interesting stuff was going on. Introverted babies sleep to escape it all! (I have both and I find the difference highly amusing).

Another give away--introverts are better listeners than extroverts. Extroverts are better "talkers", haha. 

Of course, you could be in the middle, with no clear preference. 

I got this out of Keirsey's book, btw. I highly recommend it.


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> E/I is a measure of expressiveness, not social skills. One of the give-aways is in how patient you are. Patient as in how fast you want life to move around you. If you tend to be in a hurry, wanting to get something done quickly, stamping your foot (figuratively, if not literally;-), add your voice to the discussion, and it comes out before you really think it through, then you are probably an extrovert.
> 
> If you would rather listen, observe, think carefully about what you are going to express before you express it, then you are probably an introvert.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I would have to disagree. This is what I've seen as a common starting point in MBTI research, though, and so I understand the confusion. It seems as we begin to understand we assume that extroverts are outgoing, introverts are shy, and so forth. This is just not true, however, because the very essence of drawing your energy from solitude and reflection makes you an introvert rather than an extrovert. If you're happy go lucky and talkative but you absolutely loathe socializing and you're ready to go home as soon as the party starts it doesn't mean you're extroverted it means you're introverted and you're in tune to others' feelings and your surroundings and so you 'put on a happy face'. 

I don't seem to think patience is an E/I thing but a J/P quality. A J is impatient and precise while a P is not. I don't seem to find any correlation with E/I and patience at all.

I know extroverts who think quietly before they speak and introverts who speak before they think, it's not about your discussion skills at all, really. I sort of dislike that about many tests, like truity, because extroverts are _not_ always loud and introverts are _not_ always quiet.


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

bookworm95 said:


> I'm afraid I would have to disagree. This is what I've seen as a common starting point in MBTI research, though, and so I understand the confusion. It seems as we begin to understand we assume that extroverts are outgoing, introverts are shy, and so forth. This is just not true, however.
> 
> I don't seem to think patience is an E/I thing but a J/P quality. A J is impatient and precise while a P is not. I don't seem to find any correlation with E/I and patience at all.
> 
> I know extroverts who think quietly before they speak and introverts who speak before they think, it's not about your discussion skills at all, really. I sort of dislike that about many tests, like truity, because extroverts are _not_ always loud and introverts are _not_ always quiet.


I am not confused. I am very clear in my understanding of this issue. And I am not "starting" this research; I am well versed in Keirsey's theory, having read the book. It is precisely these "exceptions" people make in their understanding--these alleged introverts who speak before they thing, or extroverts who think quietly before they speak--which confuse people. 

Most people on this forum don't seem to understand that the Myer-Briggs theory and most other theories on the internet are laden with mistakes. The MB theory of compatibility, for instance, is contradicted by Keirsey's clearly articulated empirical research, which shows that the marriages least likely to fail occur between pairings of either SJs and SPs or NTs and NFs.

The MB understanding of introverted vs. extroverted was also deeply mired with inconsistencies, which he addresses and resolves in his book Please Understand Me II, which I read.

And, yes, I agree with you. I/E has nothing to do with social skills. It is possible to be an I with great social skills, as you point out, or an E with terrible social skills. E/I has nothing to do with social skills or being happy-go-lucky, or being in tune with the feelings of others. It has everything to do with expressiveness, as I stated before, which manifests itself as I articulated above.

I am sorry to be so curt with you, but I feel a little taken about about your assumption that I don't know what I am talking about. Especially since you then ended up agreeing with me--



bookworm95 said:


> the very essence of drawing your energy from solitude and reflection makes you an introvert rather than an extrovert. If you're happy go lucky and talkative but you absolutely loathe socializing and you're ready to go home as soon as the party starts it doesn't mean you're extroverted it means you're introverted


Besides assuming that I thought expressiveness as a euphemism for social acceptability, which I do not, why did you think my post contradicted the above statement? 

Moreover, the J/P has nothing to do with patience as I defined it (how fast you want life to move around you). While J's are more precise than P's, their level of impatience has more to do with their introversion or extroversion. Same for Ps. For instance, my INTJ husband is very slow moving, impossible to hurry. Our oldest son on the other hand--ENTJ--is impatient and bossy, even though he differs from his father's temperament in this E/I regard alone. Our second son, INFP, is dreamy and also impossible to hurry--the slower version of my own NFP temperament. 

In generally, the I's in our family tend to enjoy sleeping more than the E's--napping at a picnic while my E son and I wander around the park and enjoy all the stimuli of the other people, the trees, the dogs, etc. 

Please read the book before any silly internet source, and know that the book is better researched, consistent, and correct in its application toward understanding who we are and why we do what we do.


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> I am not confused. I am very clear in my understanding of this issue. And I am not "starting" this research; I am well versed in Keirsey's theory, having read the book. It is precisely these "exceptions" people make in their understanding--these alleged introverts who speak before they thing, or extroverts who think quietly before they speak--which confuse people.
> 
> Most people on this forum don't seem to understand that the Myer-Briggs theory and most other theories on the internet are laden with mistakes. The MB theory of compatibility, for instance, is contradicted by Keirsey's clearly articulated empirical research, which shows that the marriages least likely to fail occur between pairings of either SJs and SPs or NTs and NFs.
> 
> ...


Well I do apologize. It seems I indeed misunderstood you and you present valid evidence and points. I will, of course, need to purchase Please Understand Me. 

I think what I thought you were trying to communicate was that no matter what you're introverted or extroverted based on the patience level or how you observe/express. If I'm understanding correctly now, that is true but many other factors also dictate your I/E preference? 

I suppose I've bought into many of the 'exceptions'. I would very readily be an E but I've got all the symptoms of AvPD and so I figure I must be an I?

Thanks for your explanation, seriously, it helps me in my understanding.


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

bookworm95 said:


> I suppose I've bought into many of the 'exceptions'. I would very readily be an E but I've got all the symptoms of AvPD and so I figure I must be an I?
> 
> Thanks for your explanation, seriously, it helps me in my understanding.


You're very welcome; I am happy to share my enthusiasm for the book, which really does clarify these issues. Keirsey is the only temperament typology that I've studied in-depth. I have no idea what AvPD means. I hear there are ways to interconnect the categories across typologies, but I imagine this is quite messy. For me, Keirsey's theory is functional and whole enough that I don't feel the need to look for outside explanations--I don't feel lingering uncertainties or doubts as to this or that.

Keirsey corrects several glaring flaws in the Myers Briggs theory. He does it respectfully, and he maintains the integrity of her theory in his own, but, really, it makes me suspicious of other new theories which haven't been yet been analysed and tested empirically. Perhaps the AvPD is a false indicator?

If you feel that you are an extrovert based on what I posted above, then you probably are one;-)


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> You're very welcome; I am happy to share my enthusiasm for the book, which really does clarify these issues. Keirsey is the only temperament typology that I've studied in-depth. I have no idea what AvPD means. I hear there are ways to interconnect the categories across typologies, but I imagine this is quite messy. For me, Keirsey's theory is functional and whole enough that I don't feel the need to look for outside explanations--I don't feel lingering uncertainties or doubts as to this or that.
> 
> Keirsey corrects several glaring flaws in the Myers Briggs theory. He does it respectfully, and he maintains the integrity of her theory in his own, but, really, it makes me suspicious of other new theories which haven't been yet been analysed and tested empirically. Perhaps the AvPD is a false indicator?
> 
> If you feel that you are an extrovert based on what I posted above, then you probably are one;-)


Oh, sorry-- AvPD is Avoidant Personality Disorder! Haha so I was thinking that is where my feelings of introversion are misunderstood by me.


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

So I was just thinking about my earlier posts here and I realized that it might not be adequate because I was thinking about the E/I as it manifested itself in my own family and that it might look really different in other temperament types. In particular, I was thinking about my ISTJ mom-in-law, and how she would _never _sleep at a picnic. 

Unlike the introvert portrait I gave previously, she is always in a hurry, moving here and there, accomplishing an astonishing amount of work in a single day. At a picnic, she would be supervising the grandkids, making sure they wore their hats, got sunscreen on their ears, were well-hydrated, etc. I get the sense that this sort of exertion is exhausting for her, but I also know that she loves being able to help out where she can. Nevertheless, I see her most content when she is in the tranquility of her sewing room, browsing the latest catalogue of dress patterns and admiring the different cuts and seaming techniques. 

Another way her introvertedness comes across is in the constraint she uses in conversation. Her words don't tumble out of her mouth, loud and immediate to her thoughts. When she says something, it is clear that she has thought it out beforehand, and when I reply, she considers my response carefully, sorting through the meanings in her head. It is very different from the extroverted version of her STJ--Judge Judy, for instance--who seems to take great pleasure in telling people _exactly _what she is thinking. 

So there is a relative speed involved--but the way I and E manifest themselves seem to vary according to other functions of a temperament. I think that's the problem with limited anecdotal evidence trying to answer broad questions. I should be more careful. 

Anyway, I just wanted to put it out there.


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

dawilliams said:


> So I was just thinking about my earlier posts here and I realized that it might not be adequate because I was thinking about the E/I as it manifested itself in my own family and that it might look really different in other temperament types. In particular, I was thinking about my ISTJ mom-in-law, and how she would _never _sleep at a picnic.
> 
> Unlike the introvert portrait I gave previously, she is always in a hurry, moving here and there, accomplishing an astonishing amount of work in a single day. At a picnic, she would be supervising the grandkids, making sure they wore their hats, got sunscreen on their ears, were well-hydrated, etc. I get the sense that this sort of exertion is exhausting for her, but I also know that she loves being able to help out where she can. Nevertheless, I see her most content when she is in the tranquility of her sewing room, browsing the latest catalogue of dress patterns and admiring the different cuts and seaming techniques.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying! It's so odd that I got a notification you'd replied literally as I was just considering your thoughts!

I've done extensive research in some texts (I've ordered Please Understand Me but it hasn't arrived yet!) and I've taken Keirsey's test and the MyPersonality one and paid for both of their "professional" analyses and in-depth reports. I was astounded because I tested strongly INFJ when I put everything aside and answered truthfully.

I always used to test INFJ but a part of me wasn't sure it was possible, I just was limiting my thinking by thinking too broadly, if that makes any sense at all. After reading the in-depth reports of personality including the learning types and the cognitive function I am absolutely certain that I am an INFJ.

It's actually quite funny, one thing commonly brought up in INFJ discussions is that they _may_ commonly be mistaken for extroverts! Isn't that extraordinary? I think it's because I want to please people so much and bring out the best in others that I fake extroversion, but much like your mother-in-law it's draining and I'm always very excited to get to be alone and read or write or just daydream... I research pointless things a lot. Anywho, I've discovered with a lot of introspection and research that I'm definitely an introvert.

You sound apologetic in your reply and I don't want you to feel as if you've stated anything incorrectly. I think it's important for anyone interested in psychology to be open to new interpretations etc. and you helped me to really understand I/E a lot better and to trust not everything I read, but the reliable information. I actually would love to thank you for assisting me in my journey of self discovery with MBTI because I think I would've just been aimlessly questioning for ages if you hadn't sort of led me to the proper tools.

So honestly, thank you very much! You're incredibly knowledgeable and I have a lot of respect for you!


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## dawilliams (May 15, 2012)

@bookworm95 Goodness; you're so welcome! I know a lot of other NF's who've "flunked" personality tests. I never got ENFP from my Myers Briggs tests--once I got ISFP, once I got ESFJ...but I am most definitely ENFP (crazy, quirky, often opens mouth and inserts foot;-)

I think it has a lot to do with our ability to accurately intuit what the question is getting at, and--like you said--our desire to come across in the best light possible. Keirsey talks a lot about the NF search for identity. I'm happy for you that you got the book--I hope it provides you with as much insight and satisfaction as it did for me!


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## 63511 (Aug 15, 2013)

@dawilliams I really am interested in reading it! I think that's really true, though, it's like you see a question and you immediately realize exactly what it's determining so it makes testing difficult!


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