# I'm a woman of my word.



## Helios (May 30, 2012)

hornet said:


> I can imagine that would be a struggle.
> I never get that much, unless I'm talking about something like this to someone who dont get it.
> 
> The more I learn about type the more I understand what types handle different topics well.
> ...


Which is why I talk about practical real-world things with my mother. 

Some of them expect you to have reliable air-tight proofs for everything! And when you tell them that you're speaking hypothetically they give blank stares and I just wave the white flag at that point. You have to keep it real with them. The best way to go is relate it to some real world event or experience. It's hard to do at first, but after a while, you get used to it. XD


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Which is why I talk about practical real-world things with my mother.
> 
> Some of them expect you to have reliable air-tight proofs for everything! And when you tell them that you're speaking hypothetically they give blank stares and I just wave the white flag at that point. You have to keep it real with them. The best way to go is relate it to some real world event or experience. It's hard to do at first, but after a while, you get used to it. XD


Heh hypoteticals...
I'm not to fond of them myself, especially if they are unanounced.
I can't really get why anyone would argue hypoteticals seriously.
I only use them as a joke.
Like I told my father that he would have died from the conditions of his teeth.... IF he lived in the middle ages.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> @hornet and @_Flatlander_ the reason that I personally don't care about discerning my type at this point is because of the realization I've made when coming here. Once I realized that MBTI describes more of how you think than how you act and what you believe, I stopped caring. I was attracted to learning about the system and how it works and it seems to be a largely functional system for classifying people in its own right. I've learned quite a bit, and I'm still learning but I've realized that people are so much more complex than that. MBTI is a quick way to assess or learn to understand people, but a person is more than his or her thought process. It's not just about how they think, but what they think and why they think it. Some of these aspects we won't be able to reach because we are not that person.
> 
> How is my pot analogy random? I just happen to like that metaphor so I put it there. That's all there is to it. Also how is not wanting to be stuck in a box an Fe trait? There are plenty of Fe and Fi users that get annoyed by that. I'm just curious to get more in depth reasoning with that.


I saw it as disliking the work of Je in general, classification of the external world. I was assessing it as a potential indicator of functions, and that seemed the clearest possibility, though it could obviously be wrong.

To note, I don't really care about your type either. I think I was asked for an assessment? Dominant Ni can be hard to pick up on anyway, that is true.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> I saw it as disliking the work of Je in general, classification of the external world. I was assessing it as a potential indicator of functions, and that seemed the clearest possibility, though it could obviously be wrong.
> 
> To note, I don't really care about your type either. I think I was asked for an assessment? Dominant Ni can be hard to pick up on anyway, that is true.


I see how you could look at it that way. I appreciate Je work actually, just not when it comes to excessively categorizing people. I have yet to figure out why. (Perhaps when done in excess, it clashes terribly with my individualistic tendencies.) Maybe because when there is too much emphasis on the group, there is a tendency to ignore the individuals in the group. Both are equally as important to me. It's also a problem when the similarities are cast aside. That's where all the good stuff is (patterns and such). I like to have all my bases covered and I need to take several factors into account before generating an idea. 

Well that makes two of us then. I just might declare myself ESFP for the hell of it. Plus I'm already aware of which functions I use for the most part, so I'm good.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Flatlander said:


> To note, I don't really care about your type either. I think I was asked for an assessment? Dominant Ni can be hard to pick up on anyway, that is true.


If the choice is between INFJ and INTP it can be a bit hard since both use Ti, and Ni can seem like Ti from the outside.
In general Ne is a lot more shallow than Ni. Ne are soon off to the next thing while Ni sticks with one idea longer.
I still think INTP, but an INFJ angle would be interesting.
As always it is up to the person in question to verify their own processes.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

hornet said:


> If the choice is between INFJ and INTP it can be a bit hard since both use Ti, and Ni can seem like Ti from the outside.
> In general Ne is a lot more shallow than Ni. Ne are soon off to the next thing while Ni sticks with one idea longer.
> I still think INTP, but an INFJ angle would be interesting.
> As always it is up to the person in question to verify their own processes.


I verified this a little while ago, but it's nice to see some analysis of my type every once in a while. At least with this questionnaire people gave me something different than my actual type. Mission accomplished.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

FacelessBeauty said:


> I verified this a little while ago, but it's nice to see some analysis of my type every once in a while. At least with this questionnaire people gave me something different than my actual type. Mission accomplished.


Well whatever makes you happy! 
I will unsubscribe then.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

hornet said:


> If the choice is between INFJ and INTP it can be a bit hard since both use Ti, and Ni can seem like Ti from the outside.
> In general Ne is a lot more shallow than Ni. Ne are soon off to the next thing while Ni sticks with one idea longer.
> I still think INTP, but an INFJ angle would be interesting.
> As always it is up to the person in question to verify their own processes.


I still think I saw a general aversion to Fe style that points away from INFJ, but it's possible.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Flatlander said:


> I still think I saw a general aversion to Fe style that points away from INFJ, but it's possible.


Yeah I just mentioned it since you brought up Ni!


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

hornet said:


> Yeah I just mentioned it since you brought up Ni!


Fair enough. "INFJ" might be a general designation for an Ni > Fe < Ti > Se. MBTI wouldn't like it much, though.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Flatlander said:


> Fair enough. "INFJ" might be a general designation for an Ni > Fe < Ti > Se. MBTI wouldn't like it much, though.


I actually don't care about MBTI all that much, I use the typenames as compressed cognitive functions.
I might be a bit back to the roots in doing this, as I see Jung as the supreme authority.
My knowledge of his method are a bit uncomplete, but I try to make due... XD


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

hornet said:


> I actually don't care about MBTI all that much, I use the typenames as compressed cognitive functions.
> I might be a bit back to the roots in doing this, as I see Jung as the supreme authority.
> My knowledge of his method are a bit uncomplete, but I try to make due... XD


I see it in a similar way, mostly concerned with determining dominant function and any other function use that pops up rather than type code. The idea that MBTI type codes are "best fit" at least leaves room for variance between the thinking of different types.

Really though, I'd like if the forum would let you officially use something like NiFe, or IN(F). It'd make much more sense than limiting it to MBTI, especially when people here are relatively cognizant of different options. (I envision this place as a big education crucible, I've gained a significant portion of my insight and understanding from things it's given me to consider.)


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Flatlander said:


> I see it in a similar way, mostly concerned with determining dominant function and any other function use that pops up rather than type code. The idea that MBTI type codes are "best fit" at least leaves room for variance between the thinking of different types.
> 
> Really though, I'd like if the forum would let you officially use something like NiFe, or IN(F). It'd make much more sense than limiting it to MBTI, especially when people here are relatively cognizant of different options. (I envision this place as a big education crucible, I've gained a significant portion of my insight and understanding from things it's given me to consider.)


Hehe looking for flexibility of expression! 
I could care less if it is expressed one way or another, as long as I understand it.
However standards are there because all the SJs would be upset over the change. 

I would know almost nothing about typology if it wasn't for Perc.
I have found lots of info elsewhere, but Perc pointed the way. =D


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

hornet said:


> Hehe looking for flexibility of expression!
> I could care less if it is expressed one way or another, as long as I understand it.
> However standards are there because all the SJs would be upset over the change.


^ LOL.

I guess I consider it important because probably not everyone sees MBTI in the same way I do, with the same kind of flexibility and attribution of meaning. Clarifying the meaning of a symbol is important in language, if you look at the way word use works..we stick to common definitions for the most part because that is how communication is achieved, and the internal or personal meaning of a word comes into contention much more rarely than it could. 

Applying the same principle to typology, the clearest option is to denote different symbology for different systems. NiFe allows for simple cognitive function clarity, while IN(F) speaks to the original Jungian system. Separating them out and even making a space for each would also allow you to display how different systems see you with more accuracy.



> I would know almost nothing about typology if it wasn't for Perc.
> I have found lots of info elsewhere, but Perc pointed the way. =D


Yeah, likewise. There's so much good material around this site, and some very helpful people, though I'm sure the same is true of other personality forums.


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## MegaTuxRacer (Sep 7, 2011)

FacelessBeauty said:


> @_LeaT_ just to humor you and test out your questionnaire, here goes:
> 
> 1. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.
> 
> ...


Not getting anything here.



> _2. Study these two images _here_ and _here_. Which one do you prefer and why? How would you describe it?_
> 
> The first one looks amazing and appeals to me much more than a lady eating a croissant or panini (whichever one it is lol). The green aurora at the edge looks a tad bit odd because runs along the edge of the orange stained horizon. The stars in the sky also add a nice effect to this picture as well the coastline where the water and sand meet.
> 
> This is the little corner of the universe where heaven meets earth, land meets sea, and dark meets light. It reminds me of what nature and ideas have in common: nothing is absolutely defined by borders and edges. Such lines are always blurred and there is always some sort of overlap in between them.


Ni, Fi, and some Te. I disagree with @LeaT that there is Si here.



> 3. Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter. What kind of person are you and why?
> 
> I'm a relatively simple and stoic person I suppose. I may not be the biggest genius out there, but I take great pride in being able to think for myself rather than adopting that blind herd mentality that some people tend to have. I'm a quick learner, and I'm always making new realizations about life because of what I learn. Even though I don't say much, I make it a point to be honest with people, and I'm rather good at it without hurting people's feelings or causing unnecessary conflict. I have no enemies, just friends. I either like you, or I'm indifferent towards you because I don't see the need to have negative feelings about anything. Waste of time and energy in my opinion.


Dominance of perceiving is evident in the fact that you want to learn stuff, some Te is shown in your measuring up with others objectively. Fi too.



> 4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be? Why? What kind of person would you NOT want to be? Why?
> 
> I just want to be me at the end of the day. But I wouldn't mind being oh I don't know, 5 inches taller.
> I don't want to be a person who just gives up easily, does what everyone else expects her to do, or a person who believes everything she's told without looking into something for herself. I don't want to have a closed mind, because you don't expand your horizons with that kind of mindset.
> ...


Ugh I hate breaking these things down, but I got INTJ.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@_hornet_ and @_Flatlander_

I don't know about you and why you feel that way about her, but I don't get those vibes. There is something about @_FacelessBeauty_'s writing that really strongly points towards NiTe at her core and her Fi is ridiculous. Granted, mine is too for an INTP, but cognitively I can only slip into NiTe mode. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I can understand where she's coming from? :tongue:

I think that might be somewhat confusing is that she's well-rounded. I also want to point out that to Ti doms, inner thought is not necessarily chaotic. That would point more towards Ni or at least Ne I think. The only thing I think of as chaos is Ne (my Ni is too subconscious for me to get a grasp of whether it's chaotic or not) but I can sort that out with Ti just fine. I have come to the conclusion that I in fact think and reason very linearly, more so than I think I do.

Ni on the other hand is not linear at all. 

@_FacelessBeauty_ you read my article about INTJ and INTP writing styles right? Which style did you identify most with anyway? I still see much Te rigidity in you. You certainly don't write and approach life as I do, at least. Granted, could be enneagram differences but I'm also a 9.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> I see how you could look at it that way. I appreciate Je work actually, just not when it comes to excessively categorizing people. I have yet to figure out why. (Perhaps when done in excess, it clashes terribly with my individualistic tendencies.) Maybe because when there is too much emphasis on the group, there is a tendency to ignore the individuals in the group. Both are equally as important to me. It's also a problem when the similarities are cast aside. That's where all the good stuff is (patterns and such). I like to have all my bases covered and I need to take several factors into account before generating an idea.
> 
> Well that makes two of us then. I just might declare myself ESFP for the hell of it. Plus I'm already aware of which functions I use for the most part, so I'm good.


Meh. I just see lots of Fi in this reasoning here. I think what people mistake for Ti is Fi. I don't know but to me, but maybe this is clear as day for most of the part because I both use them, but I strongly feel that the reason you're against the classification of yourself and people has to do with Fi values and ethics, nothing with what makes logical sense. And as I said before, your Fi is strong so it will affect Te. And I think it does to the degree that @_Flatlander_ and @_hornet_ thinks it's Ti :tongue:

But I see the inner chaos in you so much. And you write nothing like an INTP  Not at the core. You have the INTJ stubborness vibe I know very well. Or rather Te stubbornness vibe. INTJ butthurt is nothing like INTP butthurt, that's for sure. And you have INTJ butthurt all over you always when you're butthurt ^^

Maybe I can say these things because I have a good grasp of who you are as a person though. 

It's just so much FiTe all over the place here.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

@LeaT, is 9 your core? What are your wings? I'm a 9w1 with a strong 1 wing.


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> hornet and @_Flatlander_
> 
> I don't know about you and why you feel that way about her, but I don't get those vibes. There is something about FacelessBeauty's writing that really strongly points towards NiTe at her core and her Fi is ridiculous. Granted, mine is too for an INTP, but cognitively I can only slip into NiTe mode.


I don't know. I see where the Ni is possible, and the "chaos within, order without" is a potential pointer toward this pattern, but I don't get much Te out of her writing. Ironically, I was getting more of the Te feel from the ENTP/ENTJ thread where people are now trying to claim that he's an Fi-dom (which I suppose could be true). I picked up on potential Fi but the disdain for Fe style things was also strong. 

Cognitive functions _are_ messy, aren't they.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> @_LeaT_, is 9 your core? What are your wings? I'm a 9w1 with a strong 1 wing.


No, but in my tritype yes. So I know how 9 works :tongue: I had a discussion with this @Crono91 yesterday where I explained to him how I find balance between Ti and Fi very important to me. Probably because lack of balance between the two leads to chaos and chaos leads to anger. I got w8 though. When I do lash out in anger I do it like an 8 would. I become assertive, dominant and I completely disregard the feelings of orders in favoring of structuring the situation into what I think is the most efficient logical scenario.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> I don't know. I see where the Ni is possible, and the "chaos within, order without" is a potential pointer toward this pattern, but I don't get much Te out of her writing. Ironically, I was getting more of the Te feel from the ENTP/ENTJ thread where people are now trying to claim that he's an Fi-dom (which I suppose could be true). I picked up on potential Fi but the disdain for Fe style things was also strong.
> 
> Cognitive functions _are_ messy, aren't they.


They certainly are. It's hard when people are balanced. Also, Fi aux have a very strong and discernable tert Te :tongue: Or at least I have a very easy time picking that up. I know this because I am good friends with an ENFP and when she goes full force into NeTe mode which she does when stressed and annoyed (I wonder what enneagram she is, all I have picked up on so far is her instinctual stacking of sx/sp or sx/so, she might have 4 in her tritype, being unique and individual is a very strong motivator for her) she has Te butthurt all over her. I can't describe Te butthurt, it's a little similar to ISTP butthurt in a way, but more inwardly focused. Maybe because of how it operates with Fi. 

I suppose what's similar is how both ISTP and Te butthurt has this internal flair for drama. For ISTPs I think the real underlying reason is because of their aux Se making their butthurt take upon very concrete forms, but for Te users it's more because it's sparked by Fi. While they may necessarily not make a lot of ruckus in the sense of taking up a lot of social space, they just become incredibly stubborn and take upon a victimized attitude. So for Te users it's just Fi coming out, and appearing in a more concrete form because of Te being external. 

It's not like INFP butthurt or ISFP butthurt which is to show ridiculous levels of drama. INFPs and ISFPs become emo drama queens though, but that's because they're Fi doms. It's a little different for aux users or tert or inferior users. When Fi comes through Te, it's still very much thinker butthurt. 

I don't know, I think I am bad at explaining even though it's so clear in my mind. Sigh.

I want to add that @FacelessBeauty has a poor Fe :tongue: That could explain some things. And maybe her tritype has to do with that. Do you have 4 in it? I discussed that with @Crono91 yesterday too who scores on 2 that I think is the Fe enneagram embodied. 4 is Fi and 6 is strongly linked to Ni and Ti, and 7 Ne, 8 Te, 9 Fi or Ti, 1 Te and Fi, 3 can be either Fi or Fe. I forgot 5 but I see 5 mostly linked to Ti and Te. 

My point is that 4 and 2, while both image focused, are diametrically opposed because 4 is inwards and 2 is outwards. 4 forms identity from within, of how you are not like everyone else, and 2 is how your identity is ascribed by those around you. 

Eh, I am still not sure what my point is more than I ramble 

Well, I think her tritype is 459 like mine. Am I wrong? :tongue:


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

LeaT said:


> @_FacelessBeauty_ you read my article about INTJ and INTP writing styles right? Which style did you identify most with anyway? I still see much Te rigidity in you. You certainly don't write and approach life as I do, at least. Granted, could be enneagram differences but I'm also a 9.


The INTJ writing style sounds a lot like me to be honest.

I hate crafted introductions since I want to get to the point. This is why my thesis will be two or three sentences covering the main idea and the major categories that support this idea (body paragraphs). If something doesn't fit in the paper as a whole or I'm saying way too much, I edit it out. I also rearrange the order of my sentences so that they are in a more sequential order. The only thing I have in common with INTPs is that when I can't think of any relevant data, I will write a hypothetical scenario.


@_LeaT_ my tritype is actually 953. XD


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> They certainly are. It's hard when people are balanced. Also, Fi aux have a very strong and discernable tert Te :tongue: Or at least I have a very easy time picking that up. I know this because I am good friends with an ENFP and when she goes full force into NeTe mode which she does when stressed and annoyed (I wonder what enneagram she is, all I have picked up on so far is her instinctual stacking of sx/sp or sx/so, she might have 4 in her tritype, being unique and individual is a very strong motivator for her) she has Te butthurt all over her. I can't describe Te butthurt, it's a little similar to ISTP butthurt in a way, but more inwardly focused. Maybe because of how it operates with Fi.


Te butthurt. Yeah, I think I know the one. 



> I suppose what's similar is how both ISTP and Te butthurt has this internal flair for drama. For ISTPs I think the real underlying reason is because of their aux Se making their butthurt take upon very concrete forms, but for Te users it's more because it's sparked by Fi. While they may necessarily not make a lot of ruckus in the sense of taking up a lot of social space, they just become incredibly stubborn and take upon a victimized attitude. So for Te users it's just Fi coming out, and appearing in a more concrete form because of Te being external.
> 
> It's not like INFP butthurt or ISFP butthurt which is to show ridiculous levels of drama. INFPs and ISFPs become emo drama queens though, but that's because they're Fi doms. It's a little different for aux users or tert or inferior users. When Fi comes through Te, it's still very much thinker butthurt.
> 
> I don't know, I think I am bad at explaining even though it's so clear in my mind. Sigh.


I get what you're saying, and raise you one;

Perceiving functions as dominant, especially something as vague as Ni, are an even stranger beast with the butthurt. 



> I want to add that FacelessBeauty has a poor Fe :tongue:


Indeed she does.

By the results of her Nardi test, even poorer than mine, which is kind of impressive. Still more Feeling than myself, though, overall.



> That could explain some things. And maybe her tritype has to do with that. Do you have 4 in it? I discussed that with @_Crono91_ yesterday too who scores on 2 that I think is the Fe enneagram embodied. 4 is Fi and 6 is strongly linked to Ni and Ti, and 7 Ne, 8 Te, 9 Fi or Ti, 1 Te and Fi, 3 can be either Fi or Fe. I forgot 5 but I see 5 mostly linked to Ti and Te.


Were you asking me, or her?

My own tritype is 5>>9>>>>3. Possibly 3w2, there's some really low order 2 influence in there which I feel even less than 3, impressively. My image center is so nil.



> My point is that 4 and 2, while both image focused, are diametrically opposed because 4 is inwards and 2 is outwards. 4 forms identity from within, of how you are not like everyone else, and 2 is how your identity is ascribed by those around you.


Yeah, I get your point. 4 is more correlated with Fi, 2 more with Fe.



> Eh, I am still not sure what my point is more than I ramble
> 
> Well, I think her tritype is 459 like mine. Am I wrong? :tongue:


9>4>5 perhaps? Could be part of why the Fi shows more.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> The INTJ writing style sounds a lot like me to be honest.
> 
> I hate crafted introductions since I want to get to the point. This is why my thesis will be two or three sentences covering the main idea and the major categories that support this idea (body paragraphs). If something doesn't fit in the paper as a whole or I'm saying way too much, I edit it out. I also rearrange the order of my sentences so that they are in a more sequential order. The only thing I have in common with INTPs is that when I can't think of any relevant data, I will write a hypothetical scenario.
> 
> ...


Yes, this post is so NiTe XD

Ah, of course. 3 is what gives you the more hardened approach towards life and desire to strive towards achievement I admire but personally lack :dry:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> Te butthurt. Yeah, I think I know the one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hm. I am not sure I understand what you mean with Ni and Si being even weirder with butthurt. I know ISTJ and ESTJ butthurt well, and INTJ butthurt, and ISTP butthurt, INFP butthurt, ENFP butthurt, INTP obviously (but that's more I don't care attitude).


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> Hm. I am not sure I understand what you mean with Ni and Si being even weirder with butthurt. I know ISTJ and ESTJ butthurt well, and INTJ butthurt, and ISTP butthurt, INFP butthurt, ENFP butthurt, INTP obviously (but that's more I don't care attitude).


Are you saying you do get Ne and Se butthurt being weird? 

The only thing comparatively weird about it is that it's butthurt over perception. Perception is this inherently neutral thing..it's just a perspective..but the ego owns it to the point where poking holes in it..with a different mode of perception..feels bad.

I suppose it could be rationalized by returning to the idea that perception and judgement are two sides of the same coin in the human psyche.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

LeaT said:


> @_hornet_ and @_Flatlander_
> 
> I don't know about you and why you feel that way about her, but I don't get those vibes. There is something about @_FacelessBeauty_'s writing that really strongly points towards NiTe at her core and her Fi is ridiculous. Granted, mine is too for an INTP, but cognitively I can only slip into NiTe mode. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I can understand where she's coming from? :tongue:


Well I have noticed it too, that when I say Fi you say Ti and when you say Ti I say Fi.
I think we need to sit down and reflect on what we believe is what.
I'm not going to put my heels in the ground and say I'm totally right.
Cause maybe I'm an ISTP believing Ti to be Fi or you are an INFP beliving Fi to be Ti.
It is really hard to say... especially over the internet.
Maybe I just suck at detecting it in others in writing.
We seem to be on the opposide side of the fence so often that it would be well worth figuring out what the deal is.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> Are you saying you do get Ne and Se butthurt being weird?
> 
> The only thing comparatively weird about it is that it's butthurt over perception. Perception is this inherently neutral thing..it's just a perspective..but the ego owns it to the point where poking holes in it..with a different mode of perception..feels bad.
> 
> I suppose it could be rationalized by returning to the idea that perception and judgement are two sides of the same coin in the human psyche.


I am saying I don't even understand what you mean :tongue: I can't differentiate it like that I think. I think of attitudes. How Fe of me 

In fact I can strangely enough not follow your line of reasoning at all and get what you're getting at more than perception of judgement being different, definitely. I was simply thinking in terms of overall behavior. 



hornet said:


> Well I have noticed it too, that when I say Fi you say Ti and when you say Ti I say Fi.
> I think we need to sit down and reflect on what we believe is what.
> I'm not going to put my heels in the ground and say I'm totally right.
> Cause maybe I'm an ISTP believing Ti to be Fi or you are an INFP beliving Fi to be Ti.
> ...


I think you're very Fi dom. I do however notice that Fi users have it a little harder to tell the difference between Fi and Ti unless they come in their rawest forms. This is not just you but just a perception I've made. It becomes clear in an argument between F and T, but when they analyze others they have often issues seeing the differences. 

Not because I say I can always see the differences either, but the reason why I say that FacelessBeauty is using Fi over Ti is because I can just see the raw difference. Her refusal to adhere to group think and feel unity with the group does come off as anti Fe, but this is because Fi is the pure anti-thesis of Fe, not Ti. Ti is the opposite but Fi is the anti-thesis if you understand what you mean. Fi and Fe are diametrically opposed on the F axis. Her underlying reasoning does however have nothing to do with Ti. The reason she reacts so strongly has to do with how it _resonates *against* who she is. _The core feelings of being an individual is strongly linked to Fi. Not becaus I can currently come up with an argument that sounds more Ti over Fi in this situation, but the thing is, Ti just doesn't care. That's the real difference. Group think or individualism. It doesn't care. It's completely apathetic to both. Why? Because it has to do with people. With feelings. With emotions. Ti cannot elicit or even bother to come up with reasoning why group think or individualism is better because it concerns things Ti is NOT concerned over. 

Not sure if you've ever seen the anime Bleach and studied the character Ulquiorra in more detail? Well, something like that. Just pure apathy. Ti is like, I can't even begin to muster a fuck about the group or even about me. If I try to hide my Fi beliefs and values regarding this question and just argue it based on Ti, it would sound like this:



> *
> 11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?*
> Meh, I really don't think I care much about what other people think or what society thinks. I just can't be bothered or be arsed. I take on the values and norms I have to to get along and I suppose that's about it, because it's annoying to always clash too. But it's not that I particularly care about them. I mean, as an example, let's look at Christmas. What's the point of purpose of such a tradition? So what, Jesus died on the Christmas tree, oops sorry, I meant the cross, but Christmas tree sounds more funny, (yes, Ne spasm), but I don't see the point of celebrating the death of a dead man. Religion, what's the point of that? Like society, social interactions, it's all just so pointless. I wish they could just leave me be so I can live my own life quietly and alone. That'd make everything simpler for sure, but alas.


This is exactly how a Ti response to this question would look like in its purest form. Also notice the dash of inferior Fe when I wrote: 



> "I take on the values and norms I have to to get along and I suppose that's about it, *because it's annoying to always clash too*."


It shows that I recognize them but I do not find them important, clearly showing a preference towards Ti to the point where I'm Ti dom. Here we have some Ti bluntness also. I don't think a person like @_Crono91_ would ever write this sentence this way: 



> "So what, Jesus died on the Christmas tree, *oops sorry,* I meant the cross, but Christmas tree sounds more funny, (yes, Ne spasm), but I don't see the point of celebrating the death of a dead man."


Notice the sarcasm that also points towards inferior Fe. I am aware of what I said was actually inappropriate, but again I couldn't care. Showing Ti dominance. Another preference towards Ti with inferior Fe in this sentence: 


> "I wish they could just leave me be so I can live my own life quietly and alone."


Not something like:



> *11. Describe your relationship to society. What are the elements of it you hold important or unimportant (e.g. social norms, values, customs, traditions)? How do you see people as a whole?
> *I don't like traditions or that kind of stuff for most of the part. What I really don't like is how I must conform in order to get along, it just doesn't feel like me. That I always must act like I'm someone I'm not. Sure, I guess there are some elements of social interaction that's important and stuff. I mean, I can get why some people like religion. It provides safety and security to your personal beliefs right? But I don't need that religion crap, it doesn't really give me anything that feels fulfilling to me. Plus, I don't like how religion always imposes its beliefs upon others anyway. They're all sheeples. I want people to be able to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about life and who they are. Unfortunately I don't think most people think of life this way. It's just easier to get along than be who you are sometimes.


This is a Fi response (but unfortunately merged with Ti because Ti is my dominant function after all). However, the overall voice and tone sounds more like Fi through Te since well, I can't sound like a true feeler even if I try  You can still sense my Ti apathy behind my words. However, it's not that I am apathetic to social rules, norms and values (Ti) in this response, but more I am _diametrically opposed_ of what they mean. Therefore Fi over Ti. I wish I could go dig up a more pure Fi response since I can't mimic them entirely. If I were to read this response from someone else I would probably think of that person as a thinker with a strong Fi anyway. But you get the idea of what I was trying to say.

Of course, in other individuals the responses will not always as clear, but this is what I look for pretty much when I study people when they respond to this question. It's also a lot about what mood the writer generates and I also look for other cues in the entire questionnaire to see what they seem to be more interested in. Is it feelings, values and people or facts and objective data?


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@LeaT

Thanks for fleshing out how you see it! 
It really helps knowing whare you come form.



> I think you're very Fi dom. I do however notice that Fi users have it a little harder to tell the difference between Fi and Ti unless they come in their rawest forms. This is not just you but just a perception I've made. It becomes clear in an argument between F and T, but when they analyze others they have often issues seeing the differences.


Yeah I kinda detect Ti by looking for the Fe, that is the easiest.
However my method for looking for it is having a personal bottom up system of reasoning/logic.



> Not because I say I can always see the differences either, but the reason why I say that FacelessBeauty is using Fi over Ti is because I can just see the raw difference. Her refusal to adhere to group think and feel unity with the group does come off as anti Fe, but this is because Fi is the pure anti-thesis of Fe, not Ti. Ti is the opposite but Fi is the anti-thesis if you understand what you mean. Fi and Fe are diametrically opposed on the F axis. Her underlying reasoning does however have nothing to do with Ti. The reason she reacts so strongly has to do with how it _resonates *against* who she is. _The core feelings of being an individual is strongly linked to Fi. Not becaus I can currently come up with an argument that sounds more Ti over Fi in this situation, but the thing is, Ti just doesn't care. That's the real difference. Group think or individualism. It doesn't care. It's completely apathetic to both. Why? Because it has to do with people. With feelings. With emotions. Ti cannot elicit or even bother to come up with reasoning why group think or individualism is better because it concerns things Ti is NOT concerned over.


Sooo that would rule out INTP, ENTP and INFJ by any standard way of looking at it since if @FacelessBeauty has Fi over Ti
Ti is repressed way down there.



> Not sure if you've ever seen the anime Bleach and studied the character Ulquiorra in more detail? Well, something like that. Just pure apathy. Ti is like, I can't even begin to muster a fuck about the group or even about me. If I try to hide my Fi beliefs and values regarding this question and just argue it based on Ti, it would sound like this:


No I havn't watched Bleach, but I guess I could use L from deathnote as a substitute.
I don't understand how a Ti dom could even talk about Fi values. 
Wouldn't that be off the radar being the daemon function?



> This is exactly how a Ti response to this question would look like in its purest form. Also notice the dash of inferior Fe when I wrote:


 That seems pretty Ti yes!



> This is a Fi response (but unfortunately merged with Ti because Ti is my dominant function after all). However, the overall voice and tone sounds more like Fi through Te since well, I can't sound like a true feeler even if I try  You can still sense my Ti apathy behind my words. However, it's not that I am apathetic to social rules, norms and values (Ti) in this response, but more I am _diametrically opposed_ of what they mean. Therefore Fi over Ti. I wish I could go dig up a more pure Fi response since I can't mimic them entirely. If I were to read this response from someone else I would probably think of that person as a thinker with a strong Fi anyway. But you get the idea of what I was trying to say.


Yeah know I'm confused again...
How excactly are Fi and Ti merged?
What model allows that? 
Wouldn't that make you kinda unstable?
This seems to me to be based on a *very personalized Ti/Ne model* that can't really be combined in any real way
with other people who follow more standard models of JCF.
It would most definitely make you an INTP, but it would most definitely confuse the hell out of us Ni/Te users... :-/


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hornet said:


> Yeah I kinda detect Ti by looking for the Fe, that is the easiest.
> However my method for looking for it is having a personal bottom up system of reasoning/logic.


 I think maybe that's the problem since you seem to have issues to detect Te as well, especially if it's softened up by Fi or because it's not dominant. That you have issues to detect Te makes sense since it's your inferior.


> Sooo that would rule out INTP, ENTP and INFJ by any standard way of looking at it since if @_FacelessBeauty_ has Fi over Ti
> Ti is repressed way down there.


 Wouldn't say repressed. She's got it all right, but it's a strong developed shadow function and is normally not used in her natural cognitive processing and when it is used, it's always with Ni.


> No I havn't watched Bleach, but I guess I could use L from deathnote as a substitute.
> I don't understand how a Ti dom could even talk about Fi values.
> Wouldn't that be off the radar being the daemon function?


Too long since I have watched DN to remember how L was like at all. But I try to explain it further down regarding the other question you had.


> Yeah know I'm confused again...
> How excactly are Fi and Ti merged?
> What model allows that?
> Wouldn't that make you kinda unstable?
> ...


I have a model that is based on that people's cognitive process is only determined by dominant function. Drawing from this, the dominant and auxiliary have different relationships with their opposite functions, for example, Fe for Ti. Furthermore, I am of the belief that all other functions in an individual are slaves to the dominant function. This means that these functions can only be expressed through the dominant function. As an example, I want to show you this NiTe writing about how I would describe Ti:



> I completely agree. I am in such an INTJ mode today so I reiterate my previous statement: Ti is logical consistency. It's about categorization, classification and (de)construction. That's the only thing it does. It's incredibly linear and analytical. It picks things apart and puts things back together. It's a highly abstract function, driven by subjective logic. It does not think. It does not feel. It just is. Its only concern is to reach logical consistency in order to achieve clarity, and clarity can only be reached by breaking data down into details and comparing each part to each other. If Ti deems that the parts match, then Ti considers them to be consistent and it's accepted into the Ti model. If the parts do not match, then Ti discards the data. Ti does this systematization and categorization endlessly and it occurs on a highly subconscious level. What's important to understand about Ti is that is that it's driven by the subjective values provided by Fi. That's how Ti deems what's logical or not, but Ti values are not the same as Fi values. The only value Ti considers important is logical consistency. That's why Ti is logical consistency.


The thing to understand here is_ how_ it is written. While the overall tone and writing style is reminiscent of an ENTJ more so than INTJ I think, you can still discern that deep down I am still doing Ti deconstruction. I am completely deconstructing the Ti function, but I am doing it using the mindset of an NiTe user. I think this is causing the end result to be almost something that I think would look like an extremely pure form of Ti without any Ne attached to it.

This is what I mean with that all the other functions are always slaves to the dominant. While I have a strong Fi I cannot sound like an Fi or even an auxiliary Fi user. At best I sound like a tertiary Fi user, because Fi is always filtered through Ti, and this is because Ne is my auxiliary. When I deconstruct my values regarding society I don't do it with an Fi mindset in mind. I don't look at meanings of relationships or people. Instead I view norms, values and traditions as social _facts _of life. I have a very impersonal and abstract attitude towards them. However, I still have opinions about them and these opinions are Fi-value based since Ti cannot have any values on its own more than logical consistency. 

If I were to categorize my cognitive function order with the strongest to the weakest, it would look like this:

Ti - Ne - Fi - Te - Ni - Si - Se - Fe​ 
From this you can also discern the function combinations I prefer to use in order of importance: 



TiNe
NeFi
FiTe
TeNi
NeSi
NiSi (I suppose that's why I'm always so confused about them lol!)
SeTi
SiFe
FeTi

You can also do it backwards from least used to most used:



TiFe
TiSe
TiSi
TiNi
TiTe
TiFi
TiNe

This is not static by any means but dynamic, but you get the idea. When we make this system more complex and build adding the third and fourth function since they always work in pairs, we get an even better idea of how my mind works without any necessary order of importance:



TiNeSiFe (basic which is static for all INTPs, since it is this function combination that is defined as INTP)
TiNeFiTe
TiNiTeFi
TiSeNiTe

And so forth. This is basically how I study people when it comes to their cognitive processes as well. It is absolutely pointless to try to single out individual functions working alone. The work we have to do is try to see what the dominant function is how this dominant function _colors the perception of all other functions_. This is the cognitive relationship map of how I truly understand the Jungian functions and the MBTI. And I realize it's probably a model that is highly modified without any particular relevance to the actual models more than that I have continue to build on what they proposed. 

What we therefore look at are preferred relationships, as the MBTI and Jung for the matter, describe relationship preferences between functions. While it is possible to come up with weird and random function combinations that are not officially recognized by Myers-Briggs such as NiSi or FiTi, I believe these functions are possible. SiFiNiTi for example. However, due to way these functions works if you have no external function in the loop, it will not be felt as or perceived as healthy behavior, especially if it occurs through a dominant introverted function. If the dominant function is an extraverted function, it will not occur that way. 

Let's take @Flatlander for example, who identifies that his two strongest functions are NiTi and I agree that this is a strong function preference in him. However, because he's actually Ne dominant the end result is not the paranoia you see in say, ISTPs or INFJs when they are in the NiTi loop. What we thus have to remember is that when we look at people and their MBTI types, we tend to simplify this relationship quite a bit and simply try to peg down the most common and accepted function combination of a type, e.g. TiNeSiFe and the relationships the functions have to each other. Ti for example represses Fe naturally, just like Ne represses Si. However, this repression occurs as Ne being a slave to Ti. The end result is that the INTP actually finds reliance on experience and memories _irrational_. It's kind of like Ne and Ti being best cognitive buddies so Ne says, "Hey Ti, I don't like this Si dude, what do you say about that?" And Ti responds with "Yeah, you're right, I don't like Si either because it's so irrational. We don't like stability and we don't value experience. We want to explore new and open scenarios and see where they lead and whether they make sense or not. If we'd like Si tag along this wouldn't be possible because Si would always hinder us." This is why Si is the tertiary function, because it describes the relationship Ne as an auxiliary function has with Si. Between Ne and Si there are a plethora of other functions that I prefer to use before I fall back on Si. However, Si being tertiary, it means that it's also largely subconscious so Si will be sneaky, especially if Ti feels that Ne is not being helpful. It would be kind of like "Hey Ne, I don't like you right now. You're such a bitch because you're so bad at generating new options for me to analyze so I'll go talk to this Si dude because I'm sure he has something better to say."

Or sometimes, in other scenarios like when I write a scientific article, Ti can say, "I need more help because Ne sucks. Ni and Te, come here!" This is because NiTe are two functions that are better suited for this kind of task. I also want to add that the more you use a function combination or combinations the more developed they become and the more likely they are to repress their opposing functions. This become less and less pronounced the further away you get down the stack where the most pronounced repression always occurs between the dominant and the inferior. In the middle, between function 4 and 5, there is little to no repression going on. Te doesn't really care much about my Fi and my Fi about Te, but my Ne cares a lot about Si but since Ti is less concerned about the Ne-Si axis than Ne doms are for example, Ti is still willing to work with and rely on Si to provide with useful data. Ergo the TiNeSi function combination. Ne has no choice to comply because Ti rules, not Ne. 

I hope this made some kind of sense.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

@LeaT


> I hope this made some kind of sense.


It made a lot of sense!
As long as I know why you say what you say I can deal with it.
I don't have to go "WTF is this??? I don't even.....XD"

It ties nicely into jung dealing with dom/aux/inf in psychological types.
Still this is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more complex than I ever need to deal with I think.... :-O
Nice to know that the concept excists and that people like you are using it though.
Makes for a less confusion when you enter a thread and start talking about Ti merged with Fi. XD
Thanks again for taking the time to explain where you are coming from! =D


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

The thing @LeaT said about functional preferences is interesting. Mine look a lot like this but sometimes Te comes out on top by a small percentage:

Ni-Te-Ne-Ti-Fi-Se-Si-Fe 

Perhaps this is why I don't have much difficulty understanding any of the NTs really.


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

Late for the party again! And I so wanted to contribute here; @FacelessBeauty, you're quite a remarkable person. This is the primary reason why.

Ok, so I read through the whole questionnaire, and some of the responses, mainly on the first two pages, but then went tl;dr because I have to share what I've "seen" before it fades from my mind. I'll quote, structure, and elaborate on things later.

For starters, I can see why the INFJ description appealed to you. You're very calm and centered for an INTJ (which is still the most likely type for you, in my eyes), but you're _far_ from the stereotype. I know you're only 17, and I say "only" simply to draw attention to how advanced and mature you are for that age, which further supports my view of you as quite the exceptional person.

You remind me a lot of my INTJ bro, who is definitely THE closest male friend I have. The parallels and similarities are astounding. It helped put the references to the INFJ in context, and here's why: you're both very stoic and dignified, with a highly developed Fi (yes yes, I know INFJs use Fe as aux, but the manifestation of the general behavior is what concerns me/us here). You're both not heavy Fe users; it's the Fi that balances you out and makes you so much more than the INTJ robot stereotype. It makes you _authentic_ and _human_, if I may. Like you, he highly values close friends, and loyalty to a fault is one of best and highest-ranking traits in my eyes. It's all because of the highly developed Fi. I once described his personality as a "samurai", along with all that that entails; insofar as it is possible for an INTJ, he melted xD

You also share some core values, namely: integrity, reason, justice and independence, most. Like you, he has a high respect for individuality and people who are strong enough to _dare_ to be themselves, and not care too much about the opinions of others if they know they're right and what they're doing is the right thing to do. Frustration with stupid, unreasonable rules and _indifference_ to authority is another thing you share. He prefers to just nod, smile politely, and work around it, pretty much ignoring it rather than becoming upset by it, like an NTP would be likely to do. He's quite proud of the fact that he's (usually) able to tackle things on his own. He perseveres, and this can often appear as stubbornness or arrogance to the more "groupthink"-oriented, shallower people that come into contact with him.

There's a difference, though, and I'm guessing that's the Enneagram, (I don't know his, but it's obviously different): he never ceases to surprise and amaze me with how just much in touch he is with his inner self.

*sigh* Please excuse the Fe gush. I'm going to engage my Ti now, and focus on making some more useful contributions; I just had to blurt this out. Thus far, however, I stick with what's already been said: definitely INTJ, but a highly developed, composed and mature one at that - the powerful Fi could be what's making you idealize the INFJ type, and I think I understand what it is you mean by that. If you'd also excuse the shameless flattery, to me, this is what an INTJ _should_ be, and the immature ones (which there seems to be a lot of) should aspire to be.

Also, I _get_ the merged Ti-Fi thing. It makes perfect sense to me, but then, something happened to me that allowed me to merge them, and make them build a consensus, work together. The end result is encapsulated in the following abstract concept: "JUSTICE".


Kthnx, luvya, ttyl, brb.


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## Brainfreeze_237 (Oct 31, 2010)

PS: Nvm, went through the other posts, pretty much everything I could have to say has been covered. @LeaT especially summed up my thoughts; we even use the same (or at least similar) concept of the dynamic model of functions.

So, yeah, Ti just did another cba, sorry. -.-


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

LeaT said:


> I am saying I don't even understand what you mean :tongue: I can't differentiate it like that I think. I think of attitudes. How Fe of me
> 
> In fact I can strangely enough not follow your line of reasoning at all and get what you're getting at more than perception of judgement being different, definitely. I was simply thinking in terms of overall behavior.


Judging by your subsequent post, we are on two different tracks.  No matter. Your reasoning is interesting.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Flatlander said:


> Judging by your subsequent post, we are on two different tracks.  No matter.


I figured.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

@Brainfreeze_237 awww I wanted the play by play analysis. But that really long one was a nice read. Thanks a lot. 

All the dialogue in this thread has been interesting to read. I should make posts like these more often. :happy:


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

@FacelessBeauty

I got around to giving it a read, and my guess is LII - WSWiki

Quadra values made me pick this over ILI
Quadra - Wikisocion


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Promethea said:


> @_FacelessBeauty_
> 
> I got around to giving it a read, and my guess is LII - WSWiki
> 
> ...


Thanks. I usually score either one on some tests, and I relate to both to some extent.


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