# Are you a Patriot? Name your Country !



## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Graveyard said:


> Ah, I don't know, I just really like my people and everyone around me. I love the culture, I love the work ethics, and most of all, I love the country's natural beauties. I think it's a good thing to be proud of your background, since it's one of the few things you won't be able to change about yourself.
> 
> Of course I know the problems we face; as a society, as a country, and as people. But those things won't overshadow all the good I see. The bad should be solved, the good celebrated.


it is like being proud to be a man, or woman. Why are you taking pride in something you didn't do.

You can like your culture, and like being a male, but pride is a whole different thing.

Pride comes a feeling of superiority, because it is related with self-esteem, and personal identity, which is perfectly fine, unless we are talking about unfounded pride which it is patriotism in a nutshell.


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

johnson.han.3 said:


> it is like being proud to be a man, or woman. Why are you taking pride in something you didn't do.
> 
> You can like your culture, and like being a male, but pride is a whole different thing.
> 
> Pride comes a feeling of superiority, because it is related with self-esteem, and personal identity.


Hm, no, it's different. I am proud of things that shaped me as a person, not of the acts on their own. I can't be proud of the wars we've fought, since I was never part of them. Sure, I live in the resulting country, but that didn't define me. The culture did.

Being proud of being a man/woman... Hm, dunno. That one seems really pointless. Unless something about your upbringing as a man/woman has shaped your personality in some way. Don't know?


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

johnson.han.3 said:


> it is like being proud to be a man, or woman. Why are you taking pride in something you didn't do.
> 
> You can like your culture, and like being a male, but pride is a whole different thing.
> 
> Pride comes a feeling of superiority, because it is related with self-esteem, and personal identity, which is perfectly fine, unless we are talking about unfounded pride which it is patriotism in a nutshell.


I hear your point and reject it, personally, because I can be proud of whatever the hell I want to be proud of. Pride is an irrational emotion, anyway, so mandating logical process for when it can be used is subjective. Of course Fe helps determine appropriate times, and nationalism is generally considered to be appropriate. There, young johnson, I just out "Fe'd" you!!!


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Drunk Parrot said:


> I hear your point and reject it, personally, because I can be proud of whatever the hell I want to be proud of. Pride is an irrational emotion, anyway, so mandating logical process for when it can be used is subjective. Of course Fe helps determine appropriate times, and nationalism is generally considered to be appropriate. There, young johnson, I just out "Fe'd" you!!!


Well I never said you can't. I am only saying people are stupid for doing it. That is very different from "can't".


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Graveyard said:


> Hm, no, it's different. I am proud of things that shaped me as a person, not of the acts on their own. I can't be proud of the wars we've fought, since I was never part of them. Sure, I live in the resulting country, but that didn't define me. The culture did.
> 
> Being proud of being a man/woman... Hm, dunno. That one seems really pointless. Unless something about your upbringing as a man/woman has shaped your personality in some way. Don't know?


is your culture perfect? do you think it is better than other cultures?

I am proud of things I did. Same reason why I am not proud when my city's "insert sports team" won.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

def-Patriotism is an emotional attachment to a nation which an individual recognizes as their homeland. This attachment, also known as national feeling or national pride, can be viewed in terms of different features relating to one's own nation, including ethnic, cultural, political or historical aspects.

i don't know how to answer really. on one hand yes on the other no. by the definition given i'd say i have no emotional attachment to my country. i have lived in other countries and would possibly live in other countries in the future and i believe home is where you hang your hat to use a saying. i do have a feeling of pride sort of when it comes to my country just because of the constitution and what it stands for, but pride is a feeling i do try to avoid. i wouldn't call it pride so much as holding it in high esteem. in the sense that i believe in what my country stands for and would fight for it for the sake of others you might call me a patriot but to fight for my country no matter what the reason i would say no. only if what is being fought for is in agreeance with me. so yeah, i suppose it depends on what is meant by patriot.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

johnson.han.3 said:


> Well I never said you can't. I am only saying people are stupid for doing it. That is very different from "can't".


So having a socially acceptable emotional response like "pride in one's country" is stupid. You're starting to sound fringe Fi there. Or way too heavy on the Ti.

Haha, I'll concede there is a degree of actual stupidity that permeates nationalism. I don't fully believe in it, deep down, but I enjoy mimicking it. And like I told Big Jake, I also enjoy sports competitions. I see athletic competitions as the best alternative to war. Beating Mexico in soccer allows me (And millions of others) to celebrate the sheer bliss of seeing our neighbors humiliated while no one actually had to die. So competitive nationalism is healthy, but violent jingoism is not


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## camous (Jul 12, 2015)

No not a patriot, I am from France, I like my country but not more than any others, the only thing is that its culture shaped me so of course I have a different connection to it but I don't even live there anymore so...


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Drunk Parrot said:


> So having a socially acceptable emotional response like "pride in one's country" is stupid. You're starting to sound fringe Fi there. Or way too heavy on the Ti.
> 
> Haha, I'll concede there is a degree of actual stupidity that permeates nationalism. I don't fully believe in it, deep down, but I enjoy mimicking it. And like I told Big Jake, I also enjoy sports competitions. I see athletic competitions as the best alternative to war. Beating Mexico in soccer allows me (And millions of others) to celebrate the sheer bliss of seeing our neighbors humiliated while no one actually had to die. So competitive nationalism is healthy, but violent jingoism is not


no, taking pride in your country is stupid. This is very different from wanting your team to win during the olympics, it is a competition after all.


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## Leviticus Cornwall (Mar 27, 2014)

Drunk Parrot said:


> My brand of patriotism is just obnoxious show boating, especially during sports events. Like, I follow US Soccer and I love that Mexico got their ass whupped 7-0 by Chile.
> 
> So, I guess as far as political pride, I'm not too nationalistic, unless it's a good opportunity to, again, be really obnoxious about it like starting U-S-A chants at the bar


Yeah I guess I would hold pride if we made nice things. I'd rather stand behind a German flag simply because they make nice cars lol.


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## Leviticus Cornwall (Mar 27, 2014)

Graveyard said:


> Venezuela! Yes, despite everything going on, I am very patriotic. ...like most Venezuelans.
> 
> No I am not willing to comment on the situation, so please refrain from asking.


I have to ask is this to your culture and those around you or to the government and the way things are? 

For instance if there was no law of the land and it was just the land beneath your feet and the people you associate with is that what you connect with or do you take pride in what your country is as a set of laws and etc. just curious.


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## coconut sharks (Apr 26, 2015)

Poland. I am not patriotic.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

BIGJake111 said:


> Yeah I guess I would hold pride if we made nice things. I'd rather stand behind a German flag simply because they make nice cars lol.


No, dammit, national pride is supposed to be obnoxiously irrational. Do you even America, bruh?



johnson.han.3 said:


> no, taking pride in your country is stupid. This is very different from wanting your team to win during the olympics, it is a competition after all.


I partied whenever we killed Osama


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

johnson.han.3 said:


> is your culture perfect? do you think it is better than other cultures?
> 
> I am proud of things I did. Same reason why I am not proud when my city's "insert sports team" won.


Perfect? Far from it. But as I said, the negative can be improved, and what's already good can be celebrated. I'm not ignoring what is wrong with it, but rather, I acknowledge it and wish to work on it.

That's a different thing I believe.



BIGJake111 said:


> I have to ask is this to your culture and those around you or to the government and the way things are?
> 
> For instance if there was no law of the land and it was just the land beneath your feet and the people you associate with is that what you connect with or do you take pride in what your country is as a set of laws and etc. just curious.


It's kinda the culture, I guess. The government doesn't play much of a role; almost everyone agrees that anything said by the government is uhm... dull. To say the least.

I guess we'd take pride on it despite the lack of laws and regulations. Because based on it, new ones would arise. The culture is rich and well defined at the same time. It has distinctive traits that, if left to its own devices, could organize itself once more. The set of laws and the government are *not* something I can be proud of (funny of me, since I'm in law school).


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## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Kind of (for the Philippines), but since I left, that feeling has kind of lessened. I also don't really feel love for the country I live in (UK).

Scratch that, I like the Philippines for its culture and cuisine, but I'll probably find the social conservatism (compared to the west, but it is way more socially liberal compared to most Asian countries) less likeable since I moved here in the UK


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## TimeWaster (Apr 26, 2015)

(removed)


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Drunk Parrot said:


> Nice to see all the democrats posting in this thread :dry:


Because the Republican "patriotism"\nationalism is the reason why we get the reputation we do on a global scale. Personally, I'm a Democrat. I do have some pride and patriotism in the USA. It is a good place to live, but I'm not obsessed that I'm an American and this is the best place to live and nobody else even comes close. We have a ton of problems we need to fix and we need to get our heads out of our asses to first realize we have a problem and come up with a valid solution. Often, that means looking globally at how other people are doing things and then adjusting it for our own culture.


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

Kind of.. I think this country is breathtaking in its diversity both culturally and naturally..... Mountains, temperate rainforests, desert, coniferous forests, plains, beaches, swamps etc etc etc some of the greatest cities in the world, NY, Chicago, Miami, Seattle, San Francisco, LA, Vegas 


As far as politically not so much.

MURICA!




> edit: I'm bad at words


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

PowerShell said:


> Because the Republican "patriotism"\nationalism is the reason why we get the reputation we do on a global scale. Personally, I'm a Democrat. I do have some pride and patriotism in the USA. It is a good place to live, but I'm not obsessed that I'm an American and this is the best place to live and nobody else even comes close. We have a ton of problems we need to fix and we need to get our heads out of our asses to first realize we have a problem and come up with a valid solution. Often, that means looking globally at how other people are doing things and then adjusting it for our own culture.


Terrible reply

#Trump2016

:wink:


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> Because the Republican "patriotism"\nationalism is the reason why we get the reputation we do on a global scale. Personally, I'm a Democrat. I do have some pride and patriotism in the USA. It is a good place to live, but I'm not obsessed that I'm an American and this is the best place to live and nobody else even comes close. We have a ton of problems we need to fix and we need to get our heads out of our asses to first realize we have a problem and come up with a valid solution. Often, that means looking globally at how other people are doing things and then adjusting it for our own culture.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> You understand they’re as powerful as they are from our lack of patriotism, right? ISIS does what it does because they are taught those values and they act upon them. We are taught to write narratives of the other being a poor, oppressed culture in need of empowerment and a narrative of self-erasure.
> 
> It’s quite funny actually, but I often watch my colleagues teach history and pride in ones heritage under the condition it’s not white or European, exactly like I’ve been taught in school back in the mid-1990s. And people wonder why ISIS is home grown.
> 
> ...


lol, it is not lack of patriotism, but too much patriotism on our part that caused ISIS...

Most people only feel patriotic under certain circumstances, and one of the biggest motivation to feel pride for yourself or culture is when your culture is under persecution by another. 

This sense of threat can be real (native culture being erased) or could be whipped up by monkeys (blaming immigration). Either way, it is a great way to isolate yourself from rest of the world, and become entrenched in your own little bubble. Which is why in general, patriotism is for idiots, or not so smart people.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> This sense of threat can be real (native culture being erased) or could be whipped up by monkeys (blaming immigration). Either way, it is a great way to isolate yourself from rest of the world, and become entrenched in your own little bubble. Which is why in general, patriotism is for idiots, or not so smart people.


And in reality, it's really a birth lottery. You were just born in a given location by chance. What I find interesting is, growing up in Wisconsin, I have more in common culturally speaking with people in Thunder Bay, Ontario than I do with people in Texas. I mentioned to my girlfriend (native Texan) that it's so weird going up there and how we can be 2 different nationalities yet everything is pretty similar culturally speaking. She said I probably have more in common with them than I do with people in Texas just due to climate and proximity. It's kind of crazy to think but in a way the whole artificial boundary we set is just that, an invisible line.

With that being said, I do enjoy being an American and am happy the birth lottery put me here. I also wouldn't have minded being a Canadian and maybe will move there someday if things keep going south here.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

johnson.han.3 said:


> lol, it is not lack of patriotism, but too much patriotism on our part that caused ISIS...
> 
> Most people only feel patriotic under certain circumstances, and one of the biggest motivation to feel pride for yourself or culture is when your culture is under persecution by another.
> 
> This sense of threat can be real (native culture being erased) or could be whipped up by monkeys (blaming immigration). Either way, it is a great way to isolate yourself from rest of the world, and become entrenched in your own little bubble. Which is why in general, patriotism is for idiots, or not so smart people.


Idk man, ever since I was a kid, these songs have always brought me to tears. I can listen to other nation's songs, but they don't have the same effect. I was also raised to not be nationalistic like most people in Europe because of WW2.

It might be that Hungarian history has this overarching theme of freedom, idk... every time I listen they just get me right in my soul. 










Warning, very old songs ahead in a foreign language:


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

LibertyPrime said:


> Idk man, ever since I was a kid, these songs have always brought me to tears. I can listen to other nation's songs, but they don't have the same effect. I was also raised to not be nationalistic like most people in Europe because of WW2.
> 
> It might be that Hungarian history has this overarching theme of freedom, idk... every time I listen they just get me right in my soul.
> 
> ...


very powerful and moving songs.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> lol, it is not lack of patriotism, but too much patriotism on our part that caused ISIS...
> 
> Most people only feel patriotic under certain circumstances, and one of the biggest motivation to feel pride for yourself or culture is when your culture is under persecution by another.
> 
> This sense of threat can be real (native culture being erased) or could be whipped up by monkeys (blaming immigration). Either way, it is a great way to isolate yourself from rest of the world, and become entrenched in your own little bubble. Which is why in general, patriotism is for idiots, or not so smart people.


... or maybe, just maybe we are dealing with an ideology that is inherently anti-west, and make the mistake in trusting our allies with our infrastructure, machinery and weaponry. Or maybe, just maybe it was our mistake in thinking the west has allies in the Muslim world. A curious read is Wind, Sand and Stars by Antoine Saint-Exupery. He speaks of an Arab shown the riches of France. Fascinated, he betrays Allah and chooses France over the north African/Arabian deserts. His children, angry that the parents betrayed Allah betray and take vengeance on France. Maybe we’re dealing with a perverse religious logic, maybe the author of “The Little Prince” could offer some insight as to why ISIS is home grown. 

... furthermore, it is a common mistake for westerners to think all revolution starts with a state of oppression and leads to a state of greater freedom. This is not always the case. Consider the state of the Iranian/Islamic revolution of 1979. The house of Pahlavi was Muslim, yet secular. Exactly the kind of Muslims we want. The grand Ayatollah led a revolt that established a religious dictatorship. So much for cheering for the underdog. 

... so, maybe we could stop blaming ourselves and lead from a confident position that we are right. I understand why this might be difficult. We are a product of our education, and we are taught Europe/America is responsible for the world’s ills. Not true. We are taught to believe the myth of the noble savage and romanticize hunter-gatherer cultures as being the lost Eden. Not true, there are historical accounts of tribal barbarism which may or may not be true, and there are present day depictions tribal genocides in Africa or the violence in the Middle East for which the west is not responsible.

... anyway, I fail to see your argument how having pride in the accomplishments of your people, for drawing boundaries and knowing your enemies, and admiring your culture and your history is synonymous with xenophobia and living in a bubble. Take Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary for example, those fuckers played a huge in part in the fall of communism. From my home town, Artur Rubinstein or Henry Morgentaler [who is more a part of Canadian history, but from Lodz nevertheless]. From Poland abroad, Witold Lutoslawski, Witold Gombrowicz, Wieslawa Szymborska or Stanislaw Lem. Many respects for Alan Turing, but:

Poland's overlooked Enigma codebreakers - BBC News

... I could do the same for Canada: briefly, Marshall McLuhan, Glenn Gould, Banting/Best, the Avro Arrow team. And I’m only scratching the surface of things I personally find cool. Namely language, writing, music and mathematics.

@*BIGJake111* , there is truth in that statement. I’m curious to see the bigger picture. My first inclination is to ask if the anger is reactionary. Personally, my tipping point was the Paris attack. I understand the rage. Now do you think the rage would subside if we stop with the Muslim apologetics, stop with the cultural relativism and start telling things as they really are? Yes, the anger is hideous, but it is logical it exists.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> ... or maybe, just maybe we are dealing with an ideology that is inherently anti-west, and make the mistake in trusting our allies with our infrastructure, machinery and weaponry. Or maybe, just maybe it was our mistake in thinking the west has allies in the Muslim world. A curious read is Wind, Sand and Stars by Antoine Saint-Exupery. He speaks of an Arab shown the riches of France. Fascinated, he betrays Allah and chooses France over the north African/Arabian deserts. His children, angry that the parents betrayed Allah betray and take vengeance on France. Maybe we’re dealing with a perverse religious logic, maybe the author of “The Little Prince” could offer some insight as to why ISIS is home grown.
> 
> ... furthermore, it is a common mistake for westerners to think all revolution starts with a state of oppression and leads to a state of greater freedom. This is not always the case. Consider the state of the Iranian/Islamic revolution of 1979. The house of Pahlavi was Muslim, yet secular. Exactly the kind of Muslims we want. The grand Ayatollah led a revolt that established a religious dictatorship. So much for cheering for the underdog.
> 
> ...


To understand why patriotism is dangerous we must examine the nations like north Korea, China, and such. For us, we are quite lucky because our patriotism is quite begien because we won the lottery of being in countries where we have human rights, and have a exllcent multi-culural atomphere. But go to countries like the middle east, or north Korea you will understand why "patriotism" is extremely dangerous. In those countries, people are just as patriotic, and it is often towards ideals that are destructive, or inhumane. 

Now, is it wrong to be proud of Canada? no, because Canada is wonderful and one of the biggest traits that make Canada so wonderful is how accepting we are towards other cultures. However, this is an "objective" love for our nation because of the great values Canada posesses, which is different from "patriotism" the blind love for a culture, simply because you are part of it.

To compare the two different love. 

one is the blind love of parent's towards their children no matter how fucked up they can be. (patriotism) 

one is the objective love of you towards your spouse because he or she is a wonderful person, an excellent provider, and shows great integrity.

one is an attachment to one's country, where the other is an attachment to values and principles.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

... how do you understand multiculturalism, @*johnson.han.3* ? Because there is a specific definition of multiculturalism I have and will continue to vehemently argue against. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD HUMAN RIGHTS BE SACRIFICED TO BENEFIT CULTURE. This is simply non negotiable for me, and I feel much of the legislature and multicultural rhetoric from affirmative action, to distinct societies seeks to protect culture at the expense of the human. Last thing I want for Canada to be is a hodge-podge of conflicting legal systems with conflicting values. This will not do. 

This is completely different from accepting another human being as they are, regardless of skin color. I am willing to accept a form of social libratarianism that enshrines freedom of speech and conscience, freedom from slavery, freedom to work and of enterprise, freedom to own propriety. You know, personal dignity. There are times I feel we place culture on the pedestal at the expense of the human. 

... getting back to a few details from my initial posts: Poland is my home and they are my people. *This is not to say I approve of what the governments are doing.* I promise you there are many Chinese and North Koreans who feel the same. I read accounts of proud Germans lamenting the loss of the Germany they loved to fascism. On that note I don't think Germans of today are to be hold morally accountable for the genocide of their grandparents. I say this in full consciousness, knowing what they did to my people and my country. When I look at Merkel's Germany, I am bothered at the blind tolerance of anti-Semitism, rape and social decay just because it comes from foreigners. 

... shit dude, I can't shake the feeling this is where Trudeau is taking us. I just don't trust that man, never did. I respect and even admire Stephen Harper and Jim Flaherty for keeping us going through hard times. I respect Tom Mulcair and would not hold any objection if he were our PM, but junior scares me. I'm an odd fusion of conservative and NDP in my personal beliefs.

On a more personal level, would you stand up for the Canada you love, the Canada you wish to pass on to your family and friends or to the next generation at large? If so, you're a patriot. What I'm saying is that I have these feelings for Poland, and to a lesser extent for Canada and the last thing I want for us is to feel homeless in our own land because of poor legislature and blind faith in the other. These feelings exist, and like sexuality, you can repress and deny them or choose to embrace them and choose how to live with them and act accordingly as an expression of your best possible self.

Or would you prefer to have the government, religion or ideology tell you how to live with these feelings?


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> ... how do you understand multiculturalism, @*johnson.han.3* ? Because there is a specific definition of multiculturalism I have and will continue to vehemently argue against. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD HUMAN RIGHTS BE SACRIFICED TO BENEFIT CULTURE. This is simply non negotiable for me, and I feel much of the legislature and multicultural rhetoric from affirmative action, to distinct societies seeks to protect culture at the expense of the human. Last thing I want for Canada to be is a hodge-podge of conflicting legal systems with conflicting values. This will not do.
> 
> This is completely different from accepting another human being as they are, regardless of skin color. I am willing to accept a form of social libratarianism that enshrines freedom of speech and conscience, freedom from slavery, freedom to work and of enterprise, freedom to own propriety. You know, personal dignity. There are times I feel we place culture on the pedestal at the expense of the human.
> 
> ...


I don't love Canada, I love certain values Canada stands for. I love it because of objective reasons, not because I am currently living in Canada. I could be a Somalian living in Somalia and I will still love Canada because of its values. 

Multiculturalism doesn't mean accepting another culture for what it is without changing. This is the fear mongering a lot of Alt-Right wingers are trying to spread. Culture itself is fluid in nature and always incorporating different cultures into it. There will always be a dominant culture. We follow a Mosaic cultural model, rather than the melting pot model. In such a model, each individual culture is recognized and celebrated but under the framework of "Canadian culture". Therefore, our laws, and our human rights will not be compremised.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

johnson.han.3 said:


> I don't love Canada, I love certain values Canada stands for. I love it because of objective reasons, not because I am currently living in Canada. I could be a Somalian living in Somalia and I will still love Canada because of its values.


... fair enough, but I do have an irrational love and my argument is that it's important to understand this irrational love and to live with it accordingly. I don't think having these feelings is a signifier of lower intelligence. I didn't even know I had these feelings until after I started visiting Poland. It was almost a personal revalation for me: This is where I'm from, and these are my people. It doesn't follow that I like everything that is Polish or that it's immune from criticism. Maybe it's different if you live abroad a large part of your life. Anyway, let me point out something you said a moment ago.



> one is the blind love of parent's towards their children no matter how fucked up they can be. (patriotism)


Do you not think it's possible have feelings for a person, group or nation and disapprove of what they do. I could introduce to Persians who are proud of their heritage yet they loathe the state of their country, how it's governed by religion.



> Multiculturalism doesn't mean accepting another culture for what it is without changing. This is the fear mongering a lot of Alt-Right wingers are trying to spread.


... according to many political theorists, it does. This is why I asked you to clarify your definition of multiculturalism. Also fear mongering is not the exclusive domain of the right, just like moral outrage is not exclusive domain of the left. Neither are valid arguments worth giving any serious consideration.



> Culture itself is fluid in nature and always incorporating different cultures into it.


... this is true, but people do make a case and argue against cultural appropriation. This is true for both Americans and Canadians. I recall an incident when a student group at the University of Ottawa made a claim against whites practicing yoga. Screaming banshee style. 



> There will always be a dominant culture.


... yes, but the dominant culture is not necessarily the native culture.



> We follow a Mosaic cultural model, rather than the melting pot model. *In such a model, each individual culture is recognized and celebrated but under the framework of "Canadian culture". Therefore, our laws, and our human rights will not be compremised.*


... I hope so, I'm not fully convinced. I could share stories of friends and relatives who are social workers, teachers and the like but I do not wish to compromise their anonymity. The last thing they want is to deal with a left-wing government worker or an SJW after they've been dealing first hand with honour killings, the possibility of Sharia law in Mississauga and other unpleasantries.

Anyway, I'm gonna try sleeping again. Insomnia.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> ... fair enough, but I do have an irrational love and my argument is that it's important to understand this irrational love and to live with it accordingly. I don't think having these feelings is a signifier of lower intelligence. I didn't even know I had these feelings until after I started visiting Poland. It was almost a personal revalation for me: This is where I'm from, and these are my people. It doesn't follow that I like everything that is Polish or that it's immune from criticism. Maybe it's different if you live abroad a large part of your life. Anyway, let me point out something you said a moment ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is absolutely fine to have some irrational feeling for a country. It is even fine to wear a slightly rose tainted lens. Ask anyone who has been in love, or in a relationship before, these types of things are normal. However, just like loving a country, those people who are more objective when comes to selecting their partners, often have a much longer, and mutually satisfying relationship. 

Well, Justin Trudeau panders to the most popular social movements that are happening. I concluded that most politicians are not agents of social change, but mere panderer to social changes. So I doubt he will actually implement SHARIA LAW until Sharia law becomes so socially acceptable that majority of the people supports it. So as long as we keep that from happening, it wouldn't be a problem. Hopefully, people doesn't become retarded, and I am sure the sane still outweigh the insane in Canada.

Well, dominant culture is not the native culture, and that is for sure. consider the native culture of Canada is actually the native's culture and Europeans came after. However, this doesn't mean it would be taken over by Islamic culture. We are far far far far far far far far away from that culture. We are too used to the freedom.

There will always be SJw who use nonsense arguments to make their case, and it will never end. Just tell them to F off when they go full retard on people. Some people love to use political correctness to gain moral high ground. They are too eager to find a cause to fight that they look for every opportunity regardless of how ridiculous they are.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

@Doc Dangerstein Stuff to be proud of and live up to:






This globalist progressive propaganda that nationalism / patriotism is bad somehow is just nonsense imo and yeah, the state isn't the nation.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

@LibertyPrime it's a weird balance. It's one thing to enjoy the rich history of your nation, enjoy the customs of your people, and celebrate achievements. It's another to inflict genocide on other ethnicities, discriminate based on race, etc.

That's why I argue that sports is one of the best ways to encourage nationalism without violence. Hungary made it to the round of 16 in the euros while Austria didn't advance. That achievement allows for national pride at the expense of another, while no one died.


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## Shinsei (May 9, 2016)

Australia

not a patriot


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## Lone Adventurer (Jul 2, 2016)

United Kingdom...

Or what's left of it.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Drunk Parrot said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=385578" target="_blank">LibertyPrime</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> it's a weird balance. It's one thing to enjoy the rich history of your nation, enjoy the customs of your people, and celebrate achievements. It's another to inflict genocide on other ethnicities, discriminate based on race, etc.
> 
> That's why I argue that sports is one of the best ways to encourage nationalism without violence. Hungary made it to the round of 16 in the euros while Austria didn't advance. That achievement allows for national pride at the expense of another, while no one died.


Well I do discriminate based on race. There is scientific evidence that Asians on average are more intelligent then the rest of us for example. Why deny reality? It doesn't mean that any random Asian will be more intelligent then I, but on average that makes them more valuable to humanity. People discriminate based on many things, we can for example on meritocratic means. There is a difference between a mouth-breather and someone like Cristiano Ronaldo or Albert Einstein in value. Women in the army are a problem for example because they don't have the same upper body strength as men & their biology doesn't allow them to develop it. How will they carry tens of kilograms of gear on foot, drag wounded ppl under gunfire and other physically demanding tasks?

^^ and who is talking about genocide?

I swear everyone is panicking about racism, sexism and weird phobias these days as if virtue-signaling was more important then defending civilization, reason, virtue etc..

Are we really going to tie Prometheus to the rock and have the eagle pluck his liver out for bringing us fire every time, because the fire "upsets" us?

^^ so yeah, fuck that, even if I'll be painted as the devil or killed .. some things are worth it. Humanity is not this one big homogeneous species you know, we aren't interchangeable units, we can't escape the fact that we adapt to our environment & that different ppl in different places develop differently in many ways. Culture is just one aspect.


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## Belzy (Aug 12, 2013)

No, not at all. I find the idea of being one embarrassing. I've never been nationalistic, as a child I've hated the chants like _Hup! Holland! Hup!_ and the idea supporting my national football team simply because I'm Dutch. Where do we get the ego to praise the country we live in over the other? It's just some place where you were born and/or raisen, perhaps a special connection to it because of it, but better? Yeah, my mom's the best as well. I like the band Anti-Flag, they have a good name, love their music and lyrics.

the Netherlands


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

@LibertyPrime I'm not suggesting strong nationalism is the same as genocide, nor accusing you of being a proponent, but there's correlation between strong nationalism and eugenics/genocide. That's why I referenced sports, as a way to have strong nationalist pride, in a friendly manner.


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## Vahyavishdapaya (Sep 2, 2014)

Patriotism is just lol. Nothing is more cringeworthy than people trying to steal credit for the achievements of others by association on spurious grounds like nationality and race. 'Thomas Edison did so and so and that's why I feel so good about myself and that's why white people are the best!' umm, no. Thomas Edison done what he did because he was Thomas Edison, not because he was fucking white and American. And your being white and American does not make you Thomas Edison, so either stop pretending to be him and stop taking personal pride and satisfaction in his achievements (as though, by mere virtue of sharing nationality and race with Edison, you had something to do with his contributions), or start inventing.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

... actually, @johnson.han.3, the possibility of Sharia zones/Sharia law is an issue in Ontario. Not so much in London where I presently live, but definitely in Mississauga, Toronto and Ottawa where I have close friends and family. We do live in different parts of the country, after all. With a large gap of terrain between us.

In a perfect world, I would love to embrace an open-door, multicultural policy, under the condition it is one of mutual respect. The reality is unfortunately different and we need to draw intelligent boundaries and say “no” sometimes. I do and will continue to say no to Islam because of the values it represents and brings to the west. This is no longer a political argument considering it’s heard on the left and the right -- yes, people like Bill Maher are left of center. The logical fallacy I often see in arguments is that if you say no to Islam [or any other civilization in that is in conflict with your thought, values and interests] you’re instantly a xenophobe and therefore close yourself off from the rest of the world and live in a bubble. It is an argument I felt you used against me. Nothing can be further from the truth. Saying “no” to Islam because it poses a rational threat is not synonymous with saying “no” to everyone else. 

The problem with multiculturalism is that it is all embracing and doesn’t discriminate accordingly and make necessary adjustments. Yes, I choose my trigger words deliberately. It’s fun to imagine the cute little idiots having a histrionic or an aneurysm. Equality is a myth. Not all cultures are equal, you made this point yourself in your argument against patriotism. Multiculturalism demands that we see them as such. It requires the west [or the lowest tier on the affirmative action totem pole] to compromise [read, forfeit] their position in order to accommodate the other. Equality requires all parties to have the same end game. The objective of the west, freedom and democracy. The objective of Islam, theocracy and government under Allah. We have a conflict of interest: Authoritarianism versus non-authoritarianism. I don’t see how a high presence of Islam adds value to my life, to the lives of non-Muslim or to the lives of Arabs who practice Islam.

... an important point to realize is this. The third world is the third because of their third world values. We are quick to point the fingers at western corporations. While the criticism is valid, we are quick to overlook their poverty stems not from their absence of resources but their value system and their priorities. Instead of multiculturalism I propose relationships of compatibility and mutual benefit and rational boundaries when conflicts of interest occur. Simply put, classical liberalism and intelligent diplomacy and to courage to enforce and demand respect for our values. 

... @LibertyPrime, what bothers me sometimes is that our Polish leaders don’t always see the value in Hungarian-Polish relations. Personally, I like the idea and consider the Hungarians like family. I like Poland’s and central Europe’s position on the issue of the migrants. When I watch Polish news or read Polish press there are many issues with which I disagree with PiS. They can be a frightening lot. I didn’t mind Donald Tusk as prime minister and Bronislaw Komorowski as president. It was under their office when I last visited Poland and considered settling in Warsaw. I am skeptical of Tusk’s relationship with Merkel, and unaware of his position in European parliament, but I understand there has recently been a schism between the two. Dare I say, I used to think Angela was reasonable and I even liked her until she started screaming for more migrants. 

... oh, the genetic argument. Actually, there is an equal and opposite counter argument in favor of education. The Chinese and the Japanese use iconographs in their language. This form of reading/writing trains the cognitive abilities required for association. The Europeans and the Jews value Socratic reasoning, dialectic. Jews tend to have more training in debate whereas Europeans tend to have more training in mathematics. What frightens me most about religious and ideological cultures is they require complete abandonment of the will and an acceptance of an authority figure. This includes Loyala's position in Roman Catholicism, Islam, Marxism and it's many incarnations, Freudian psychoanalysis, etc. 

I am familiar with a video in which Stefan Molyneux makes a similar claim, except I don't put as much faith in genetic determinism as he does and I'm willing to argue another, completely different position. Edward O. Wilson's On Human Nature is a favorite of mine and I'm looking forward to reading this:

https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/evolution-four-dimensions-0

... anyway, I don't feel like writing a second essay on genetics or globalism at this time. :kitteh:


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Drunk Parrot said:


> @LibertyPrime I'm not suggesting strong nationalism is the same as genocide, nor accusing you of being a proponent, but there's correlation between strong nationalism and eugenics/genocide. That's why I referenced sports, as a way to have strong nationalist pride, in a friendly manner.


 well yeah, I agree. In addition imo we need to watch for the negative kind of nationalism.



Doc Dangerstein said:


> ... @LibertyPrime, what bothers me sometimes is that our Polish leaders don’t always see the value in Hungarian-Polish relations. Personally, I like the idea and consider the Hungarians like family. I like Poland’s and central Europe’s position on the issue of the migrants. When I watch Polish news or read Polish press there are many issues with which I disagree with PiS. They can be a frightening lot. I didn’t mind Donald Tusk as prime minister and Bronislaw Komorowski as president. It was under their office when I last visited Poland and considered settling in Warsaw. I am skeptical of Tusk’s relationship with Merkel, and unaware of his position in European parliament, but I understand there has recently been a schism between the two. Dare I say, I used to think Angela was reasonable and I even liked her until she started screaming for more migrants.


I think you said this as well, the government or the state is not the nation. They are more often in the way, especially when it comes to the economy and the church. I personally think we need to sever the state from church as well as the economy...but I digress I'm sort of a libertarian anyway.

:/ yeah I had a good impression of Angela initially as well.... then she went nuts and brought ruin on her people and Europe by allowing uncontrolled immigration into an economically unstable zone. If the EU made economic crisis (sovereign debt bubble anyone) didn't kill Greece, the migrants will.

The EU was a problem before the migrants however, its a centralized bureaucratic mess which provides a haven for the global elite & their multinationals.



> ... oh, the genetic argument. Actually, there is an equal and opposite counter argument in favor of education. The Chinese and the Japanese use iconographs in their language. This form of reading/writing trains the cognitive abilities required for association. The Europeans and the Jews value Socratic reasoning, dialectic. Jews tend to have more training in debate whereas Europeans tend to have more training in mathematics. What frightens me most about religious and ideological cultures is they require complete abandonment of the will and an acceptance of an authority figure. This includes Loyala's position in Roman Catholicism, Islam, Marxism and it's many incarnations, Freudian psychoanalysis, etc.


You could very well argue that modern day liberal progressivism is such a religion. 

Asians also have a different attitude towards learning, its in the culture. Their environment, family life and national culture over many years contributed to this. Most Caucasian societies have even if to a lesser degree a similar kind of attitude and have had for a very long time.

If you look at blacks however, especially those in Africa, this just isn't the case. They haven't had anything similar for hundreds of years and arguably even now its not even remotely close to Asian and western culture's influence on the native populations there.

The end result is that it shows. Ppl in Africa & the Middle East can often not even maintain what is built there through western aid, because they lack the human capital & the culture to sustain it.



> I am familiar with a video in which Stefan Molyneux makes a similar claim, except I don't put as much faith in genetic determinism as he does and I'm willing to argue another, completely different position. Edward O. Wilson's On Human Nature is a favorite of mine and I'm looking forward to reading this:
> 
> https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/evolution-four-dimensions-0


I agree that this is a more complex issue where nature and nurture both have a large part to play. Imo disregarding either is a mistake. You need both the culture and the genetic foundation, but through a good proactive culture a lot of progress can be made

... it doesn't mean we need to treat people like the progressives do. Its demeaning imo.



> ... anyway, I don't feel like writing a second essay on genetics or globalism at this time. :kitteh:


 you don't have to.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> While the criticism is valid, we are quick to overlook their poverty stems not from their absence of resources but their value system and their priorities.


This is definitely an issue. I even notice this as I get into the Valley in Texas, where it's basically like Mexico 2.0 USA. While they may see themselves as "laid back," the lack of hustle does contribute to a lack of productivity, which ultimately leads to less wealth creation. This is also true in Northern vs Southern US states.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

PowerShell said:


> This is definitely an issue. I even notice this as I get into the Valley in Texas, where it's basically like Mexico 2.0 USA. While they may see themselves as "laid back," the lack of hustle does contribute to a lack of productivity, which ultimately leads to less wealth creation. This is also true in Northern vs Southern US states.


This is true in eastern vs western Europe as well. In the former communist block nations especially in my parent's generation there still is a mentality which I see now resurfacing across western Europe in the millennial generation. 

They expect too much from the state, they want handouts and for the leadership to regulate and handle their lives. The culture is still very much hurting from Communism. They basically grew up during communism, so I don't blame them...  but man my generation in the west sucks balls for being similar.


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## Turlowe (Aug 4, 2014)

USA

I'm honestly not sure whether or not I'm a patriot. I have a love for my country and it's citizens, culture etc., though I certainly don't believe that we're inherently exceptional or better than many other countries. I served in the military and did my duty and I believe that I still have a duty to try and make my country better, but I am painfully aware that we as a nation have done many things to be ashamed of. I am proud of the accomplishments of my fellow citizens past and present, and I am troubled my many actions of our citizens past and present, though I don't feel terribly attached to either, they did those things, not me. I really dislike the noisy boisterous displays of patriotism, the "my country right or wrong" mentality, and the people who thing that wearing a flag on their lapel or their car makes them patriotic. I also dislike the people who ignore the many good things or the bad things that this country has done to support some jingoistic pseudo tribalistic b.s. . I hate how patriotism is used as a metaphorical club to bash those who don't agree with a particular political position. I also can't forget the quote by Oscar Wilde, "patriotism is a virtue of the vicious". Too much empty headed and non critical patriotism can often lead to a smug sense of entitlement, which in turn often leads to pointless and unprovoked aggression. I'm obviously pretty conflicted about patriotism, but I'm not conflicted about the idea that this is where my family is, my friends, and that I owe my society for all that I've received from it.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> ... actually, @johnson.han.3, the possibility of Sharia zones/Sharia law is an issue in Ontario. Not so much in London where I presently live, but definitely in Mississauga, Toronto and Ottawa where I have close friends and family. We do live in different parts of the country, after all. With a large gap of terrain between us.
> 
> In a perfect world, I would love to embrace an open-door, multicultural policy, under the condition it is one of mutual respect. The reality is unfortunately different and we need to draw intelligent boundaries and say “no” sometimes. I do and will continue to say no to Islam because of the values it represents and brings to the west. This is no longer a political argument considering it’s heard on the left and the right -- yes, people like Bill Maher are left of center. The logical fallacy I often see in arguments is that if you say no to Islam [or any other civilization in that is in conflict with your thought, values and interests] you’re instantly a xenophobe and therefore close yourself off from the rest of the world and live in a bubble. It is an argument I felt you used against me. Nothing can be further from the truth. Saying “no” to Islam because it poses a rational threat is not synonymous with saying “no” to everyone else.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood what Multi-culturalism means. It doesn't that we let cultures operate without leash. This is the false narrative Far righters are fear mongering about. I read about ontario Sharia law problem, and this has happened in America too. It gets rejected each time it is brought up to court. You have to understand just because it is brought up, doesn't mean it is something that will pass. I mean if you think about it, Canada even have a communist party, do you think it will ever win? 

Saying no to Islam is way too open to interpretation. Part of human communication is to communicate what you mean effectively. Using such vague language will cause people to misunderstand what you mean. I would encourage you to say, I am against a certain aspect of Islam and make it clear what you mean. I have certainly run into those problems in the past with crybabies. 

I actually brought up an interesting topic in a class of mine that deal with diversity. I said the idea what can't criticize another culture simply because it is another culture is ridiculous. I explained that Aztec people used human sacrifice and should we condone such acts? The answers we reached was very promising. We don't condone such act under our laws, and our culture, therefore, even though it was ok for another culture to do it in their land under their laws, the moment they move to Canada they will follow our laws.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

... calling something “right-wing fear mongering” is not a counter argument. If you care to examine the definition multiculturalism in the Stanford philosophical dictionary it speak of cultural accommodation, affirmative action, ethnic quotas, etc. All the things I have been critical of in my posts. 

Multiculturalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

... now, everything points that Justin Trudeau is pushing towards the multiculturalism I don’t want. We have a cabinet on gender and ethnic quotas. We waste tax payer money on rewriting the national anthem because it might be offensive to the gender-queer. If you read Michael Ignatieff’s work, he is in favor of the affirmative action policies that I oppose and have opposed before I knew about Rebel media, Breitbart press or the new right. I do think Ezra Lavent’s criticism of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and section 13 was valid at the time. I understand changes have been made to section 13 in recent years, a victory for free speech that makes me ecstatic. 

This might come as a shock, because I disagree with many right-wing policies. I don’t wish to privatize everything and I certainly don’t wish to abolish health care, low income subsidies. But I do wish to foster a culture that encourages self-reliance, entrepreneurship and open market in which big business and multinational corporations don’t have politicians in their pockets. While I read and watch right wing media it doesn’t follow that I agree with their conclusions. I find the left is overly concerned with ideology and I’m more concerned with facts and reasoning. 

... and yes, I’m white, male and heterosexual and it bothers me that I have extra hurdles to cross in my social circle and perhaps recently in job applications. Being a musician, I’m often around SJW types and left leaning people. I had people tell me I must be a latent homosexual, because I am blatantly male and when I told them to fuck off and that I didn’t want that kind of attention I found myself accused of homophobia and pretty much without friends or allies. So, yes, I do occasionally speak from a veil of contempt but certainly not from economic privilege. I’m in the lower echelon of income and certainly want to change that. Fuck, I need a few good friends who are smart in business, not so much to coach me because I can do research for myself, but to inspire me and keep me focused. Actually, our talk is doing much to help me regain my faith in Canada. Thanks for that.



> ﻿Saying no to Islam is way too open to interpretation. Part of human communication is to communicate what you mean effectively. Using such vague language will cause people to misunderstand what you mean. I would encourage you to say, I am against a certain aspect of Islam and make it clear what you mean. I have certainly run into those problems in the past with crybabies.


... good Fe advice, thanks. I’m gonna “peace out” for some time. Too much time in front of the computer, and the television set watching Germany/Italy play with dad. Really want to go out and do something. We could talk diversity later. It’s another thing I have mixed feelings about. It’s something we admire, but too much diversity will lead to diffusion and confusion, and to little, dogmatic thought and horse blinders.

@*LibertyPrime* , quick note. Everything taken ideologically, dogmatically and on blind faith is a religion. Even taking the channels you and I watch on blind faith, without going through the arguments, counter-arguments and evidence is “religious” Anyway, what make you switch to NT? because I sometimes wonder about this myself, always been Ne-dominant, Ti/Fi, Se, Ni/Te/Si and Fe as my last function because I often take a skepical/critical attitude towards cultural norms, legislature, ideologies, etc.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Doc Dangerstein said:


> @*LibertyPrime* , quick note. Everything taken ideologically, dogmatically and on blind faith is a religion. Even taking the channels you and I watch on blind faith, without going through the arguments, counter-arguments and evidence is “religious” Anyway, what make you switch to NT? because I sometimes wonder about this myself, always been Ne-dominant, Ti/Fi, Se, Ni/Te/Si and Fe as my last function because I often take a skepical/critical attitude towards cultural norms, legislature, ideologies, etc.


I switched, because I don't stick to values like a good Fi user should. I'm skeptical about what I'm being told and skeptical about what I think (doubt). My main activity is thinking to be honest and I switch my perspective based on what makes sense, what I think is closer to reality, despite offending people or starting an argument. I mean, sure I prefer not to argue and it pains me at times, I don't like being at odds with society, ppl around me... but for me the truth is more important then that.

This is how I got here. I used to be one of those useful idiots (although one with deep doubts and skeptical of the whole deal). It all changed when the migrants hit Hungary's borders and I saw with my own two eyes, heard with my own two ears the giant chasm between what was happening in reality and what the media, not just the mainstream, but the alternative left was broadcasting. 

I swear I have never been pissed at John Oliver, Chenk Ugur or John Green before that... but they really screwed the pooch on this one. :/ so I started to listen more closely to the other side, hell I went so far as to have a look what the alt right was saying... and fuck me they were reporting accurately in comparison.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out wtf is really going on. Imo the best place for info is the Rubin Report. I recommend subscribing:






Also this pretty much applies to me quite literally: https://www.16personalities.com/entp-personality


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## bremen (Apr 25, 2016)

I used to be patriotic,but over time and more recently I strayed away from that idea.
I'm disapointed in a lot of things of my country,when I look at other countries I think they are overall just better than mine,and more interesting.
The lack of culture,and proud history is just astonishing here.

On an another note,I don't see the point in being patriotic,it's a way to control population,and bind us together,
but as I see it,in the end everyone is still alone,and struggling to each and their own problems.

My country is Canada


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Racism: Their nation is inferior to mine.
Nationalism: My nation is superior to their's.


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