# Why do people think Kurt Cobain was an Enneagram 5?



## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

@mistakenforstranger Yeah, at some point you have to laugh a little as you recognize you're filtering everything through your own types eyes. With the quote you offered above (re 1:10) this 5 couldn't help but notice he said he's envious of those who "aren't bothered by the complications of knowledge" which seems a 5-ish thing to say (in addition to 4-ish).

I was interested in how you had interpreted his lyrics (All Apologies, you posted previously), it was very different to how I would have interpreted them (I saw it as a theme of differentness and dis/connection rather than envy and shame even though those words were used). I was interested more bc what that says about us than what it says about Cobain (a sx-blind 4 vs a sx 5 reading the same lyrics).

I'm fine to type him as a 4w5. I see *some* 5 in him (from what little I've seen of Cobain). Whether being a 5 is helping me pick up things or bending what's there, who knows. I'd be curious to know if you have an opinion on his instinct.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

He was a keen observer of the human condition. A 5ish trait observing. Then using that as part of his basis for creativity(4). I see him more as a 4 tho overall. Sometimes I see 6 in him..


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Dare said:


> @*mistakenforstranger* Yeah, at some point you have to laugh a little as you recognize you're filtering everything through your own types eyes. With the quote you offered above (re 1:10) this 5 couldn't help but notice he said he's envious of those who "aren't bothered by the complications of knowledge" which seems a 5-ish thing to say (in addition to 4-ish).


Oh, I did notice that part actually :blushed:, which yes, is 5, I agree, but the core of the sentiment overall seemed to be coming from 4. I even hesitated posting it, despite the strong point about envy, because I knew someone would probably make that argument haha, but as a whole, I don't see the 5 core in him. I wouldn't say I'm filtering him through my type's eyes, though. Yes, we all have our own interpretations, filter it through our own subjectivity, but I try to not let that affect me when I'm typing him or others, but we're not completely immune to it either. I actually have no affinity/identification with Kurt, even if it seems like I'm invested in this topic, but I do see so much that is 4 about him every time I look into it, and think it's one of the more glaring mistypes in Enneagram literature, and feel like making it known as I've always discussed it in other threads before, and now here's a whole thread dedicated to it! :laughing: Also, as I said before, van Gogh too. Very much a 4, not a 5, but no need to discuss it here.



> I was interested in how you had interpreted his lyrics (All Apologies, you posted previously), it was very different to how I would have interpreted them (I saw it as a theme of differentness and dis/connection rather than envy and shame even though those words were used). I was interested more bc what that says about us than what it says about Cobain (a sx-blind 4 vs a sx 5 reading the same lyrics).


Yes, lyrics are definitely open to interpretation, but yeah, that sense of differentness/disconnection is related to 4 and loss of Holy Origin, but 5s have their own sense of that too. If you'd like, how would you see that manifesting in 5s? 



> I'm fine to type him as a 4w5. I see *some* 5 in him (from what little I've seen of Cobain). Whether being a 5 is helping me pick up things or bending what's there, who knows. I'd be curious to know if you have an opinion on his instinct.


That's actually more of the discussion I'm interested in, what is his instinct, or even tritype? Something that I've been trying to figure out lately, and glad you brought it up. At this point, I'm leaning towards sx/so. I think there's a lot of Social in his outlook, which makes me think he isn't so-last, and he has the sx-4 theme of hate/anger, and he wouldn't be sx-last. Not that Social 4s can't be angry either, so maybe so-4 too, but rage/anger is often talked about in relation to him, and by others who knew him, which is more in line with sx-4. I know The Fauvres type him as 4w5 so/sx, and I remember reading some post of theirs about it, where they say he's the antisocial "negatively identified" (their term) social 4, which I was looking for today, but can't find, not that I find their opinion all that important, but it just made me think of it. Also, think if contraflow/synflow theory has any weight, he'd be pretty clearly contraflow, but also think 4s, in general, are a pretty contraflow type. If not sx/so, then maybe sx/sp.

This isn't the post I was looking for, but they do mention it here..."Curt Cobain" lol: https://www.facebook.com/Enneagram.Explorations/posts/166123266776387
https://www.facebook.com/Enneagram.Explorations/posts/446134315456270


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## Spiritwalker86 (Sep 11, 2017)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Okay, and yes, I see your point. There are definitely variations among the types, and can see why that would apply in some cases. Naranjo has even said there's the most variation among subtypes of 4. I just don't see it happening here with Kurt. He isn't a counter-type 5. The easier answer, at least to me, is he's a 4.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, right it is, as a wing, but it does blow my mind that anyone who knows anything about him would choose 5 over 4 for him in the first place. I don't think it necessarily has to be that one's view of 5 is off, people can just be bad at typing and come to the wrong conclusion, but can see why that would be upsetting for a 5 too, if it seems like one is only typing someone based on stereotypes. Though, I often think people assume this too much, that people are typing based on stereotypes, in cases of disagreements like this, when it isn't really the issue. I also don't think it's useful to type a person based on lyrics, as was done earlier, and say someone's lyrics are 5, because that's how you interpret them, therefore so is that person, which to me is just as much typing based on stereotypes. Lyrics can be open to a lot of interpretation, even though I do think aspects of one's type can come through in lyrics.



Since I'm the one who you say "typed" his artistic work -actually, it was food for thought- and (now) you strongly criticize the approach, please use the @ or quote so that I can directly know that what I wrote is being discussed. Anyway, back to the topic.

If you say that I typed him on the basis of his lyrics, I start to think that there is a comprehension problem, since I NEVER typed Cobain with a definitive core in any of my posts. Of course, I took the lyrics as a reference for pointing out why some people could type him as a 5, which was the main question of the OP (and I'm kinda getting tired by repeating it). You say that typing someone on the basis of lyrics is the same thing as relying on stereotypes. You have to pardon my french here, but that statement is bullshit. If we talk about an artist who writes lyrics for his own songs, lyrics are expression of feelings, sensations visions, or ideas. This works from Gene Simmons to Bob Dylan, because when you have to create something from scratch, you express your self, no matter what. Can you find everything about a person in there? Of course not. Can they tell you a lot about their personality and mind? Yes, with the right contextualization. 

The second point is: it's pointless and misleading taking lyrics into consideration while typing, because they are subject to interpretation by the one who types. Here I was shocked. I'll tell you one secret: the enneagram of personalities itself is an interpretation of human psyche (made by different authors, with different interpretations) using the enneagram symbol -an intepretative tool, according to Gurdjieff- as a starting point. And each of us, while reading those analysis, interprets them. Typing itself is an act of interpretation of someone's thoughts, feelings, behaviour, speeches, dynamics, and so much more: an interpretation made using the interpretation of an interpretation as a reference. A human personality/mind is exponentially more complex than a lyric. And you think that a lyric can be more open to interpretation than human psyche? 



> Just because they're an expert instead of a rookie doesn't mean they are right, and in this case, I cannot see any reason why they decided to type Kurt as a 5 instead of a 4. Kurt isn't the only mistyped 5, who's likely a 4 instead, on that list either. There are quite a few. Although I do like Riso-Hudson's content on the Enneagram, I honestly think it's sad that an Enneagram expert can't even identify one of the more obvious examples of a 4.
> 
> As far as I know, Riso-Hudson are the only Enneagram authors who type Kurt as a 5. Other Enneagram authors identify Kurt as a 4.


So? If 9 persons on 10 say a thing, does it mean that they're right? Herd mentality never worked for me. Again, different authors, different interpretations. We can't judge the quality of those interpretations since we don't have the analysis that drove to those conclusions. And who on earth would have the last word to say that a personality is rightly typed or mistyped? In this case, the only one who could was Kurt, and (sadly) he's dead. Typing people who do not have voice in the matter is nothing more and nothing less than an entertaining mindgame based on speculation and argumentation. There's nothing wrong in it, it's just important to be aware that there is no true, definitive solution.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Spiritwalker86 said:


> If you say that I typed him on the basis of his lyrics, I start to think that there is a comprehension problem, since I NEVER typed Cobain with a definitive core in any of my posts.


You strongly implied that you see him as a 5 instead of a 4 in your earlier post. What am I supposed to think? 



Spiritwalker86 said:


> Hard to tell, probably the only one who could really type Kurt Cobain was Kurt Cobain himself. He seems on the thin line between 4w5 and 5w4 for sure.* But honestly, I've always seen much more 5 than 4 in him. *





Spiritwalker86 said:


> Of course, I took the lyrics as a reference for pointing out why some people could type him as a 5, which was the main question of the OP (and I'm kinda getting tired by repeating it). You say that typing someone on the basis of lyrics is the same thing as relying on stereotypes. You have to pardon my french here, but that statement is bullshit. If we talk about an artist who writes lyrics for his own songs, lyrics are expression of feelings, sensations visions, or ideas. This works from Gene Simmons to Bob Dylan, because when you have to create something from scratch, you express your self, no matter what. Can you find everything about a person in there? Of course not. Can they tell you a lot about their personality and mind? Yes, with the right contextualization.


No, I think your interpretation of his lyrics as being 5 was based on stereotypes, as you said below:



Spiritwalker86 said:


> I*'m not a Nirvana expert, but from what I recall his lyrics (and his diary too, but I've read it once many years ago so I can't really take that in consideration) scream 5.* There is practically no space for emotions (even metaphorical), it's all like big sensory chaotic-horror hallucination. They all have this "the world around me is rotting" quality, with grotesque-anatomical style flashes, in a much similiar way to David Cronenberg's first works, Nine Inch Nails, or Silent Hill, just to give you some examples.





Spiritwalker86 said:


> *This is a part of Heart Shaped Box, and all Kurt's song that I remember at the moment are in this style. Compare them to "4w5" Alice In Chains or The Cure.* There is a striking difference. Even the songs that cover the same themes/atmospheres, with grotesque schizophrenic hallucinations, have a completely different feel ("Rotten Apple", "Lullaby").


Because why, a 4 can't write about those subjects or have that outlook? I also brought up quotes that refute that idea. There may be a "striking difference" in their lyrics, (I'll take your word for it, as I'm not familiar with either), but I don't think that has to mean they're different types. You can type by lyrics all you want, I even did! And yes, I agree with you that a type can be revealed in the lyrics, but it's all subject to interpretation. You read 5 in those lyrics, I don't see why they're 5, so it's likely not going to lead anywhere, so I brought up quotes that are _very_ 4 in nature, or even a song that I think that is more 4. We're likely not going to agree, but don't see where you can see 5 in those quotes, no matter how you interpret them, not necessarily the song. 



> The second point is: it's pointless and misleading taking lyrics into consideration while typing, because they are subject to interpretation by the one who types. Here I was shocked. I'll tell you one secret: the enneagram of personalities itself is an interpretation of human psyche (made by different authors, with different interpretations) using the enneagram symbol -an intepretative tool, according to Gurdjieff- as a starting point. And each of us, while reading those analysis, interprets them. Typing itself is an act of interpretation of someone's thoughts, feelings, behaviour, speeches, dynamics, and so much more: an interpretation made using the interpretation of an interpretation as a reference. A human personality/mind is exponentially more complex than a lyric. And you think that a lyric can be more open to interpretation than human psyche?


It's not as complicated as you make it sound, and yes, I agree it's an act of interpretation, but you can't see the 4 patterns in what he says? You said you can see him on the line between 4w5 and 5w4, so you acknowledge you do see those patterns. Why make this statement about how complex the process is? It really isn't. 



> So? If 9 persons on 10 say a thing, does it mean that they're right? Herd mentality never worked for me. Again, different authors, different interpretations. We can't judge the quality of those interpretations since we don't have the analysis that drove to those conclusions.


Yeah, I agree, not saying just because Riso-Hudson type him as a 5, and the others do, and they're in the majority that makes them more right, and him wrong, but they are the only experts I know who do, and I also find he isn't the only mistype in their "Famous Fives" lineup. 



> And who on earth would have the last word to say that a personality is rightly typed or mistyped? In this case, the only one who could was Kurt, and (sadly) he's dead. Typing people who do not have voice in the matter is nothing more and nothing less than an entertaining mindgame based on speculation and argumentation. *There's nothing wrong in it, it's just important to be aware that there is no true, definitive solution.*


No, I don't believe that. There are so many examples of people who exemplify their types. He may not be able to type himself, but there's plenty of information on him out there, of many celebrities/historical figures, where you can reach a definitive conclusion on their type.


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## Spiritwalker86 (Sep 11, 2017)

mistakenforstranger said:


> You strongly implied that you see him as a 5 instead of a 4 in your earlier post. What am I supposed to think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. You understand the difference in saying "I think Cobain was a 5" and "I've seen more 5 than 4" ? In the first one I give a typing, in the second one I share an impression clearly stating (and now I think that it's the third or fourth time I say it) that the only one who could really type Cobain was Cobain. 

2. And you missed the point. I gave some comparisons, but the point stays in "There is practically no space for emotions (even metaphorical)". The example I gave, was to point out that "the landscape" is more a culminating projection of concepts or sensations rather than being a catharthical expression of deep, idealized feelings and inner experience. Different artists doesn't mean different types? Of course yes! But is it AIC, Cure, Edgar Allan Poe, Baudelaire (just to stay in the same "thematic field", with depression mixed with schizoidness), and I could say many others who are not even getting close to those dark themes... they all share a vibe, amongst many things (dynamics, fixations, and much more). And I don't get that vibe and I don't see the other stuff in Cobain's works. Take About a Girl. It should be a love song. Where are the strong feelings in the lyrics? How are the feelings expressed by the voice? How is it supported by the music? It seems really detached/neutral to me. It applies also to Love Buzz. If you'd like to suggest other songs, I would be glad to discuss them!

About lyrics quotes: if you cherry-pick fixation-related single words and single lines to support a typing (talking about stereotypes...) ... again, with that approach, also Tony Soprano could be typed as a 4. What makes the difference is the overall feeling and vision.

About the interviews: yes, there's a lot of "4ishness" in some of them. 

3. The process isn't complex? It is not complex just if you don't wanna see it. It's like being asked how many shades of colours are in a three-dimensional painting, then covering your eyes and saying: "Easy. Just one, black".
The enneagram is an act of arbitrary interpretation: different authors have different intepretations of the cores and of human behaviour. Instinctual variants are just an example: how many interpretations of the instincts exist? Delimiting the 9 types is the first act of interpretation. Then you have to intepretate a real person psyche and associate it to one of those 9 types. The same person can easily be typed differently by two different authors, since they could have a different intepretation for that person and a different intepretation of the 9 cores. 
And if you think that a lyric, a little, minuscule fragment of expression of human psyche, requires more interpretation than the whole human psyche... I don't know what to tell you.

4. Could you please tell me how do you know that a definitive conclusion has been reached? How do you definitely know that a person's type is wrong or right? A sign appears in the sky, saying "Well done, buddy"? Plus, on the basis of which intepretation? Naranjo's one? Ichazo's one? Palmer's one? A new one? The enneagram is not an algebraic equation, is more like philosophy: there is no definitive conclusion, and that's not a problem, since it doesn't have that purpose.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

mistakenforstranger said:


> Yes, lyrics are definitely open to interpretation, but yeah, that sense of differentness/disconnection is related to 4 and loss of Holy Origin, but 5s have their own sense of that too. If you'd like, how would you see that manifesting in 5s?


There is an aspect of it with the withdrawing/observing/being on the outside as a 5. Not that I think about dis/connection from that people aspect -- there is a sense of choosing it afterall (maybe this is just so-blind me talking -- an idea I'll come back to). 

Although I say that ^ as a relatively healthy 5. Unhealthy 5s are said to detach with less control (controlled by fear): "In the unhealthy state, the basic fear of being overwhelmed by the world can cause Type Fives to become detached from the people around them and the world around them as a defense. This unfortunately causes them to understand the world even less, which further increases Fives' basic fear. The cycle continues to build up." Type 5 -- Enneagram Personality Dynamics

I personally become mindful of connections more in the context of being sx (sx/sp to be precise). I've always _felt_ a connection to nature, the sun feels like an old friend to me (hence me reading Cobain talking about a connection with the sun in All Apologies as quite literal). When I watch the sunset I can feel 'one with the universe' as odd as that may sound. The only other time I experience awareness of connection is in certain close personal relationships (chemistry) -- in a full bloom romantic relationship it can take on a 'spiritual' feeling (as I can experience with nature).

I'm not aware of my disconnection to other people in this feeling way: I don't feel connected but I don't feel any loss/absence of connection either. I'm not entirely blind to the concept though. I understand my sx/so friend wants to connect with many people and when I hear lyrics that talk along the lines of "because we separate, like ripples on a blank shore" (Radiohead, Reckoner) I imagine it's disconnection from each other that is being spoken about in the Holy Origin sense. I assume it's being so-blind that frees me from experiencing this dis/connection with other people (and being absent core 4).



> That's actually more of the discussion I'm interested in, what is his instinct, or even tritype? Something that I've been trying to figure out lately, and glad you brought it up. At this point, I'm leaning towards sx/so. I think there's a lot of Social in his outlook, which makes me think he isn't so-last, and he has the sx-4 theme of hate/anger, and he wouldn't be sx-last. Not that Social 4s can't be angry either, so maybe so-4 too, but rage/anger is often talked about in relation to him, and by others who knew him, which is more in line with sx-4. I know The Fauvres type him as 4w5 so/sx, and I remember reading some post of theirs about it, where they say he's the antisocial "negatively identified" (their term) social 4, which I was looking for today, but can't find, not that I find their opinion all that important, but it just made me think of it. Also, think if contraflow/synflow theory has any weight, he'd be pretty clearly contraflow, but also think 4s, in general, are a pretty contraflow type. If not sx/so, then maybe sx/sp.


From what little I know, my guess would be instinct sx/so, as you said. I can see why people might like the 'suffering' 'sensitive' social variant for him but I think, although there is a bit of that, it's overall too subtle & light for him and so I prefer the 'shameless' 'mad' sx 4 for him (even more so after hearing people who knew him described him as having rage/anger). When I read the quotes you posted on him it struck me that while he might use the word envy he comes across as quite shameless. 

Sx/so may also explain his focus on connection (with people). I get the impression he felt he should connect with his audience but didn't which made him feel bad. In the envy Freddie Mercury example it struck me that the _why_ he envied (connection) is just as significant as the envy itself. I understand this focus on dis/connection can be explained by the Holy Origin idea at the core of 4s too.

Sx/so is neat for him in a few other ways. It's intense, it can have exhibitionist & challenging convention qualities which it looks Cobain may have had. I agree the contraflow idea fits too. Negatively identified social isn't a better description imo.

The sx/so 4 description from Oceanmoonshine, fwiw https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/four-stacks/

"This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies."

Just to play devils advocate, let's take a look at what Ocean says about 5 sx/so https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/five-stacks/

"This subtype is the most dramatic of the instinctual stackings of type Five. They are less concerned than the social/sexual subtype with social rejection, but take rejection from intimates very much to heart. They have a strong desire to express themselves, and can be the most Four-like of all the instinctual subtypes of type Five.

Not only do they have a strong desire to merge with a significant other, they also want to make their mark in the larger social sphere. The intensity, aggression, counterphobic stance and desire to connect deeply, all combine with the social instinct to produce a highly charged personality. This subtype can become quite accomplished if they are able to form an intimate connection with someone who will help ground them and provide them with a feeling of security. When Fives of this subtype feel a sense of safety due to healthy intimate relationships, they will want to share whatever knowledge, talent or insight they may have.

When unhealthy, this subtype can be very dark, pessimistic and the most confrontational of all the subtypes of Five. They can also become very arrogant."

Ocean also types Cobain as a 5 https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/fives/
"Cobain is sometimes also mistyped as a Four, but he was uncomfortable expressing himself emotionally except through his art, and he sadly succumbed to nihilism in the end."

That's not to say I believe Ocean's right about Cobain, it's to say 5 is not outlandish to consider and probably should be carefully ruled out with Cobain since he has quite a bit of 5ishness in him. That's why I (tentatively) type him as 4w5 458. I'd be curious to know what tritype you see him as.


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## joaocarlos (Feb 19, 2019)

Maybe, Cobain was 1 self-preservation and he spent most of his life in point 4 (arrow). This explains his perfectionism.

Great instrumentalists are usually type 1 for the detail and rigidity required by the instruments, as well as the natural movement for point 4 (arrow). This also seems to have been the case with Igor Stravinsk


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## wums (Nov 25, 2013)

I mean I don't even think INFPs can be e5 in the first place. I only ever see INFP 4s and 9s in reality. This business about INFP 5s and 6es or even 2s, I just don't see it.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

joaocarlos said:


> Maybe, Cobain was 1 self-preservation and he spent most of his life in point 4 (arrow). This explains his perfectionism.
> 
> Great instrumentalists are usually type 1 for the detail and rigidity required by the instruments, as well as the natural movement for point 4 (arrow). This also seems to have been the case with Igor Stravinsk


Nah, he's definitely not a 1. 4s can be perfectionists about their craft. He doesn't show any patterns of 1, even for a fix. 

I don't know how anyone still can't see what an E-4 Cobain is, he's like a textbook example.


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

Finally I find some time to get myself into this super interesting topic here of typing Kurt Cobain correctly.

To me, as a five, it's been clear from the beginning that he is correctly typed as a five by some important authors of the Enneagram like Riso and Hudson and also as I read somewhere above by Naranjo. And I already know that I really have my mind fixed on that idea and I don't think that I am going to change it. But what I think is a very interesting and promising challenge is to find good arguments against typing him as a four and others in favor of his five style.

What I am especially interested in is to find out more about the four actually. I meet them only seldom and I think that they look quite different from each other. I am quiet sure that one of my former female flatmates was a four. But she had a very lively, you could say outgoing personality and looked like a seven at the first spot. Also she was a terrible listener. My hypothesis of her being a four is that she could get in to a roller coaster of hot but very dark feelings and I can tell that she felt chased by them (and the way she dressed).

As a little introduction I begin with two interviews with other female fours from the list of the Enneagram Institute. One is with Jackie Kennedy at the White House:






The other is with the author Anne Rice. I think it's an interview from the eighties. She's wearing a beautiful blouse and bow. It's a must see!






What strucks me with both is the sweetness and kindness of these two women. Both are very collected in one way but also really engaged in the discussion and connected to the interviewer. I add the last word because when I was watching the two interviews it was this fourish characteristic that stood out as very different from the five. These two four women really are, I am hesitating to write "eager to please". Because it sounds like I have both figured them out as three wingers. Maybe they both are. I cannot tell yet. (They wouldn't be the best examples then to start in a study on Kurt, because you Kurt-is-a-four-theorists agree on his having a five wing, I suppose.)

And it can again be seen in this video here, where three self-identified fours give some of there knowledge around having the four traits:






These people are here with us. The focus is very much on relating to the person they are talking to. They connect very easily (from my five point of view).

It seems to mirror what is said about the fours in the literature on a very basic level, that they are oriented to other people or more exactly to the other's image of them.

The last video I would like to present is this very, very sweet Ingmar Bergman in part two of a series of videos






where I just watched the part where he describes how he and his older brother decided with four and eight to kill their new born little sister because they were so jealous that she took away their father's attention from them completely. The little girl had very strong lungs already and fortunately, and someone in the church next door must have heard her screaming he explains...

Fours are so sweet people!

I get back here later.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Because for everything that is obvious there always has to be someone to say it's not what it seems.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Sengai said:


> ...I begin with two interviews with other female fours from the list of the Enneagram Institute. One is with Jackie Kennedy at the White House:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you jump to 9:15 in the video it becomes apparent that Jackie Kennedy was the often overlooked, frequently misunderstood, 3 sx. Or, at a minimum, she's sx and has a 3 fix -- either way 4 as her core type is ruled out. That's what I see anyway; there is disagreement as to whether she was a 4w3 or a 3w4. Tom Condon even suggests she is the most famous 5 woman (presumably 5w4). A 5 who dresses well, loves great furniture/interior design, enjoys being a woman and strives to support/promote her husband -- how could that be possible!? (said with a smile 


* *










































Regarding the "eager to please" aspect; while 3s can have an eager to please/watching-you-watching-me quality, how she's perceived today will be different to how her audience of 56 million (!) saw her in 1961 (when they watched her full White House tour). Her 3 sx "classic male/female" style was seen as welcome, feminine, be-like-me leadership (typical of healthy 3s). As I watched the video my 3 fix admired the way she positioned & held her body in the chair. Being a role model to millions made an enormous difference to her husband's career. It's been said no one knew the power of image in politics like Jackie did.






I don't see 4s being so emotionally detached, nor so conforming to an ideal. I believe 5 with a 3 fix as more plausible than 4 (but think 3w4 is most likely). What extremes in this thread: from Kurt Cobain's grunge to Jackie O's grace.



> Threes can mistype as Fours, again, especially if the wing is strong, but Fours are much more introspective and emotionally aware, even emotionally self-indulgent when unhealthy. As Threes become unhealthy, they increasingly detach from their inner states and become less emotionally aware. Both types can suffer from depression, but Threes much less so than Fours, and when they are feeling low, they tend to consider it a sign of weakness and try to work it off. *Jackie Kennedy Onassis is a good example of a Three who is sometimes mistyped as a Four, because of her elegance and sometimes even mistyped as a Five, because of her detachment. Both traits can be accounted for by recognizing the fact that she was a Three*. https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/threes/


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

What was another impression of watching these fours or maybe, thanks @Dare, one 3w4 or even 5, that stayed with me, was that they seem to be comfortable with the outside, the surrounding, and the others out there.

The five has this idea, it is said, – and sometimes I can begin to see what is meant with this in my experience – of imagining the inside save and the outside uncotrollable. When I was still smoking the first thing when I left the house was to light a cigarette and it had except from the addiction a lot to do with bringing me back a little bit of safety when now I was in this wide, big outside unprotected by the walls of our appartement. I also don't like the fact about springtime and going into summer that I have to give up layer after layer of my protective cloths.

So watching all these fours (maybe with the exception of Jackie) gave me a good sense of that them were not concerned with staying safe and what I am going to try to show later in interviews with fives in order to protect themselves seeing the world and talking about the world from a certain distance and disconnectedness. The connection is established through the thinking about it.

Also I find that another difference about the five and fours I can see here is that the fours in these videos are very much to meet somewhere else but in their heads. It's something about the emotions with them. I sound still very flat and just like from the book, I guess. I'm going to try to deepen this. Because I would really like to understand the four better. Because, in the end, it's my wing and I don't get at all how it influences my basic five motivations except from the fact that I like paintings and history and that I am maybe a bit "softer", "kinder" than the 6 wing fives.

And to finish this: When I looked up some more of the fours and the fives from the Enneagram Institute list I also detected a typing that seems flawed to me. It's Susan Sontag. She's in the five list, but to me, absolutely clearly, she's an eight.






What do you think?

Another typing in the list struck me as very interesting. It's Jodie Foster.






Is that the female social five or is it not rather a six or something completely else? I had a very wierd experience watching her becuase somehow I related to her like to a five but something didn't make sense. Very interesting feeling. My hypothesis is that this is actually the 6w5. I haven't met women 6w5 personally (since knowing the Enneagram) but I remember two women professors from university that were just like Jodie here and I didn't connect at all with them in a way that I do it instantly with fives.

I have met two male 6w5 in the last two years and they were very easy to type for me because I get a very distinct feeling when talking to them. I described it to myself as talking to a pseudointellectual. This sounds degrading but I don't mean it. I think what I experience is that they're very into thinking things through just like me but that they lack the certainty (or stubborn clinging) that fives have with their thoughts. And therefore I feel much stronger, or better superior on the intellectual field at least to 6es.


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

Thank you so much @Dare for your interesting thoughts on Jackie's type and the discussion on it.

I am not US-American and I know very little about her and US elites and political history. Saying that as a historian and a five : ) 

I love your joke about Tom Condon's argument that Jackie must be seen as the most stylish, famous and popular five in history. Haha!

I imagine that male Enneagramists of every corner might completely overlook the attraction to dark and "dangerous" subject matters of female fives which we do to enhance our feeling of security just like our male versions. I mention it because it is this that I miss completely in Jackie. I was myself almost mistyped by my five Enneagram coach as a four because of this lack of perceived oddness, I think. When the thing is actually that there are just any female role models for expressing this antisocial, lonesome cowwboy trait at the core of the five. My favourite male cartoon hero as a child was Lucky Luke.

Could you tell me more why you can definetely rule out the idea of Jackie being a four? To me the thing with the fours at the moment is very much that when I try to type someone I can easily rule out that someone is not a one, not a two, not a three, not a five and neither a six, seven eight or nine... You understand? To me - a bit like nines - I do not see some very characteristc traits in them right on the spot. But the nines - they're so easy to detect for me in being with them because I have 9-people close to me, so it's them I studied the most apart from the five.

What are these positive characteristics of the four for you? And which Jackie doesn't show?


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## AppleKore (Jun 14, 2013)

Dare said:


> If you jump to 9:15 in the video it becomes apparent that Jackie Kennedy was the often overlooked, frequently misunderstood, 3 sx. Or, at a minimum, she's sx and has a 3 fix -- either way 4 as her core type is ruled out. That's what I see anyway; there is disagreement as to whether she was a 4w3 or a 3w4. Tom Condon even suggests she is the most famous 5 woman (presumably 5w4). A 5 who dresses well, loves great furniture/interior design, enjoys being a woman and strives to support/promote her husband -- how could that be possible!? (said with a smile





Sengai said:


> I love your joke about Tom Condon's argument that Jackie must be seen as the most stylish, famous and popular five in history. Haha!
> 
> I imagine that male Enneagramists of every corner might completely overlook the attraction to dark and "dangerous" subject matters of female fives which we do to enhance our feeling of security just like our male versions. I mention it because it is this that I miss completely in Jackie. I was myself almost mistyped by my five Enneagram coach as a four because of this lack of perceived oddness, I think. When the thing is actually that there are just any female role models for expressing this antisocial, lonesome cowwboy trait at the core of the five. My favourite male cartoon hero as a child was Lucky Luke.


Okay so I don't _exactly _have a horse in the race for if Jackie was a 3, 4 or 5, however... She was not all fluffy. I do feel like she was a withdrawn type which learned to present an image of femininity as a protective mechanism and a power move to support her husband's platform. Now I know the assassination of ones husband is going to be a pretty extreme scenario, but when I think of Jackie I think of the following:

In _Death of a President_, William Manchester wrote: ”_The Lincoln flew down the boulevard’s central lane; her pillbox hat, caught in an eddy of whipping the wind, slid down over her forehead, and with a violent movement she yanked it off and flung it down. The hat-pin tore out a hank of her own hair. *She didn’t even feel the pain.*”
_
At the hospital, several people asked the former first lady to change her gore-soaked pink Chanel suit. But, *Jackie, obviously still in shock and in the fist phase of grieving, assertively refused*, saying:_ “*Oh, no … I want them to see what they have done to Jack.*”_

Despite all the efforts that people around her did to convince her to take off the blood-stained suit, Mrs. Kennedy continued to wear the Chanel suit, ... alongside Vice President Johnson as he was sworn in as the 36th President of the United States. Lady Bird [Johnson] recalled:_“*Her hair [was] falling in her face but [she was] very composed … I looked at her. Mrs. Kennedy’s dress was stained with blood. One leg was almost entirely covered with it and her right glove was caked, it was caked with blood – her husband’s blood. Somehow that was one of the most poignant sights – that immaculate woman, exquisitely dressed, and caked in blood.*”_[1]​
The drama of that image sticks with me. What it says about Jackie's type? Hard to say; but there is a simmering aggression in the refusal to remove her bloodied clothes which does, on some level, highlight a deep attachment to dark or dangerous aspects. In that moment, the authentic appearance of the blood that had been shed took prescient over any notions of conventional femininity that would shy away from gore. Take from that what you will!


[1] _Jackie Kennedy wore her blood-splattered pink Chanel suit for the rest of the day after JFK’s assassination. _2016. The Vintage News. Accessed at: https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016...e-rest-of-the-day-after-jfks-assassination-2/


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## Schizoid (Jan 31, 2015)

I can't see him as an enneagram 5. Kurt Cobain is such a 4w5 to me... 

IEI-Ni enneagram 4w5

Not sure about his instincts though.


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

Thank's AppleKore for your interesting and loving thoughts on Jackie. I think neither Dare nor I wanted to say anything bad or degrading about Jackie.

I think what is just very funny for female fives when hearing that someone thinks that Jackie Kennedy was a five is that we'd love to have her as our five sister. (Fives are just like everybody else and admire threes very much. Dare has convinced me of Jackie having the 3w4 style.) But we fives simply do not know at all how to make ourselves popular. We can train it a little bit by faking it but it's extremely draining for us. And especially when we are stressed we of course just fall back on our distanced intellectualism and analytical strength which with intellectual protestantism, scientific revolution and the age of reason (I didn't know there was a book by Thomas Paine with that title) got more and more defined as a male trait and the most ugly and unnatural in women. And this is very much around in our thinking still. I find this very unjust and it makes me very angry. It hurts!

I must admit that I judged everything too narrowly and too eagerly and too fast when I commented on Gordons "Jackie was a five-suggestion". I think what I instantly concluded was that there was "yet another guy so much into female stereotypes that although he has been an Enneagram expert for decades he still cannot recognize (and validate) the female five for the female five. I hate this men's world so much".

I am not very proud of this anger and hatred and often I' m also suffused with feelings of vengeance. But I remember myself that it is ok to hate, to have whatever feelings, and that this is now the process of making peace with it and not blame me because it's there. It's just there. And I try my best to not act it out again perfectly unciously the next time. This here will help!

I apologize if I sounded harsh. I didn't realise that I was so angry.


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

I have started to do some research on Tom Condon who I judged so harshly unknowingly.

The first google result was a video with a self-identified female four at a workshop telling Tom Condon a little bit about herself combining it with or better analyzing herself in the mirror of her knowldge of the four's issues. And well, this woman is clearly a five. I then conclude very conciously again now that Tom Condon really cannot validate the female five. Otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to have this video uncorrected, would he?






Obviously he has the five style himself:






I am without words now. It doesn't seem easy for many people to see the difference between the four and the five. And I suppose that the reason is the strong stereotypes on both types.

Also, nobody seems to like fours. But Ingmar Bergman and Anne Rice and all these people presenting themselves in the narrative tradition, they all look so kind. It's very sad!

I am looking forward though to this challenge of discerning the five from the four. What I need is more correctly typed examples of 4w5s. Ingmar seems to me to be one. A bohemian of aristocratic descent, as you can see in the next videos. That's funny.


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## Sengai (Sep 2, 2018)

Okay, there it was at 28:02, Tom Condon explains having the four style...

I feel a bit confused now. The four and the five seem to be those styles that you cannot discriminate.


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