# Quadra hangout observations



## Inure Penumbra (May 13, 2012)

Not sure if its just me but I seem to find a lot of Alphas on 4chan and a lot of Deltas on tumblr. This is something im interested in. Does anyone else have input on the online behaviours of the different quadras?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Inure Penumbra said:


> Not sure if its just me but I seem to find a lot of Alphas on 4chan and a lot of Deltas on tumblr. This is something im interested in. Does anyone else have input on the online behaviours of the different quadras?


Deltas on Tumblr? My impression is mostly betas, though there can be deltas there too. My impression of Tumblr in general is that it's mostly aristocrats, though, of either quadra.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Inure Penumbra said:


> Not sure if its just me but I seem to find a lot of Alphas on 4chan and a lot of Deltas on tumblr. This is something im interested in. Does anyone else have input on the online behaviours of the different quadras?


I think Tumblr is full of NFs of both quadras, but mainly betas. The archetypical Tumblr person is an opinionated individual with passionate opinions about social issues/fictional characters/obscure nonsense who also considers themselves awkward and confused in realistic situations. Their mode of expression tends to be pretty Fe -- loud, expressive, "WE ARE FIERCE WARRIOR QUEEN DRAGON UNICORN DIVAS AND WE HATE ALL MEN" -- and I'd say the current generation of social activists tend to be pretty beta too. 

On Tumblr I'd say gammas are usually personal blogs or one of those dark and edgy "aesthetic blogs" with a bunch of pictures of rain clouds, highways at night, and pale models in black. They don't post much about themselves and have minimalistic themes. But you can often find SFs run more colorful, opinionated blogs as well... after all, I'm generalizing. 

I've never been on 4chan but from what I've heard of it, I think it has many beta STs, and alphas too. 

Instagram is a SF haven. It's an incessant competition of who gets the best face angles, filters and lighting to create the perfect picture and impress everyone following you. People experiment with their aesthetic so much, and that's really cool but also pretty frightening in watching how the self-obsession gets out of hand at times. 

A lot of people making those Snapchat jokes and talking about how they message derpy faces to their best friends all the time are Ne types.


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

Reddit seems Alpha or Beta to me. I'm talking about mainstream Reddit as in what you see on the first page. What frustrates me is how it seems more like a social gathering where people spar with each other for karma and internet points as opposed to a forum devoted to insightful and serious discussion. Nothing against humor but when I click on a thread on r/news and see that the top comment is some goofy pun, it's rather annoying, not to mention the subsequent string of attempts at humor. You have to scroll down a lot to find a comment that actually addresses the topic.


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## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Night Huntress said:


> I think Tumblr is full of NFs of both quadras, but mainly betas. The archetypical Tumblr person is an opinionated individual with passionate opinions about social issues/fictional characters/obscure nonsense who also considers themselves awkward and confused in realistic situations. Their mode of expression tends to be pretty Fe -- loud, expressive, "WE ARE FIERCE WARRIOR QUEEN DRAGON UNICORN DIVAS AND WE HATE ALL MEN" -- and I'd say the current generation of social activists tend to be pretty beta too.


Whoa. We have a very different experience of tumblr. Most of the shit I see is fanart, some occasional SJW, but mostly just a lot of random crap like whatever the hell this is.

Then again, I'm probably avoiding most of the real intense opinions, and most of what I see can still easily fit with Delta NF.

Instagram as an SF heaven. Hm, maybe. Interesting. P:


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

My sis (SEI) is even more Alpha than_ I_ am (And I mean, I _am _Alpha Quadra hangout), and she seems to love Tumblr.

I honestly don't really keep up with trends much, unless they tend to criss-cross with my new/old interests.


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## Verity (Aug 2, 2014)

4chan seems to consist of mostly alpha/beta logicians, with the odd gamma/delta who will actually write something serious but it also depends on which forum you're on. /tg/ (traditional games) seems to have alot of deltas for example.

The few deltas I know irl seem to enjoy tumblr, but they don't really post much. beta and alpha ethicians are another matter though... A piece of advice: Never mention _Supernatural_ or _Buffy_ to an aristocratic NF. 



ildiavolo said:


> Reddit seems Alpha or Beta to me. I'm talking about mainstream Reddit as in what you see on the first page. What frustrates me is how it seems more like a social gathering where people spar with each other for karma and internet points as opposed to a forum devoted to insightful and serious discussion. Nothing against humor but when I click on a thread on r/news and see that the top comment is some goofy pun, it's rather annoying, not to mention the subsequent string of attempts at humor. You have to scroll down a lot to find a comment that actually addresses the topic.


This is my experience as well.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

I totally thought this was going to be a thread about the other four threads LOL.

The only online friend I have from previous years was an ILI, and he simply ran his own forum. I believe he also lurked 4chan. Would occasionally randomly message me random furry pics to amuse himself lol


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Night Huntress said:


> On Tumblr I'd say gammas are usually personal blogs or one of those dark and edgy "aesthetic blogs" with a bunch of pictures of rain clouds, highways at night, and pale models in black. They don't post much about themselves and have minimalistic themes. But you can often find SFs run more colorful, opinionated blogs as well... after all, I'm generalizing.


About rarely posting personal information, that's damn true for me and my loose cannon friend. She posts a bit more about personal stuff, but it's not much compared with other RPers. Also is true that my own theme is quite minimalistic and my friend's a bit more colorful, but still with blue or other dark colors. I also follow other RPers that don't like to post much personal stuff, specially as it's easier to avoid that anon hate BS if someone doesn't know much about you.

I also think that SJWs are mostly aristocrats, as they box people instead of seeing them as individuals. I avoid them like the pest to be honest as they're annoying and are quite common in the Pokemon fandom. They push trans headcanons like crazy even if that seems not too legit, or pass white characters as black people.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

zinnia said:


> Whoa. We have a very different experience of tumblr. Most of the shit I see is fanart, some occasional SJW, but mostly just a lot of random crap like whatever the hell this is.
> 
> Then again, I'm probably avoiding most of the real intense opinions, and most of what I see can still easily fit with Delta NF.
> 
> Instagram as an SF heaven. Hm, maybe. Interesting. P:


I've been on Tumblr for a few years now, and as I perceive it, the number of deltas has declined quite a bit. It's almost customary that you have be louder, bolder, rebellious, and paradigm-breaking with your opinions on social issues. The current "social landscape", so to speak, favors beta youngsters (lol I sound so old when I say this but ironically...) who are all about making a colorful and impactful statement about the shining awesomeness of their identity  It's come a long way from when it was a site where everyone could revel in how "quirky" and "weird" and different they were from the rest of normal society, cause they're into obscure shows and novels and are socially awkward and whatever. Before it was more about individuality and creativity of opinion, and creating a cozy space where we could all be weird together. Now it's more about how strikingly expressive you can be, how many ripples you create, and the shock value you have. Not just on Tumblr -- in society in general. Of course, the delta side is still very prominent and certainly hasn't died out. But beta is the new metagame.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Blue Flare said:


> About rarely posting personal information, that's damn true for me and my loose cannon friend. She posts a bit more about personal stuff, but it's not much compared with other RPers. Also is true that my own theme is quite minimalistic and my friend's a bit more colorful, but still with blue or other dark colors. I also follow other RPers that don't like to post much personal stuff, specially as it's easier to avoid that anon hate BS if someone doesn't know much about you.


I always feel rather awkward when I post overly personal opinions and I almost always take them down immediately. Meanwhile other people get so candid about everything going on in their life, how their partner dumped them, their birthday presents, where they're going out for dinner...

When I was an RPer I always got significantly weirded out by how people were so intent on forming a welcoming and nurturing community where they patted each other's backs. I always just wanted to do my own thing and only RP scenarios I found interesting, but apparently when you enter the RP community you have to try and build camaraderie with a lot of others. That was sooooo tiring. 



> I also think that SJWs are mostly aristocrats, as they box people instead of seeing them as individuals. I avoid them like the pest to be honest as they're annoying and are quite common in the Pokemon fandom. They push trans headcanons like crazy even if that seems not too legit, or pass white characters as black people.


I have mixed feelings about SJWs. On one hand, many of them advocate very important causes such as appropriate representation in media (example: why does the black man always die first in action movies?) and they definitely help present an alternative perspective of how things can be more inclusive and respectful of different social groups. They are definitely necessary to keep things moving and destroy poisonous social orders.

On the other hand, they do this by creating box after box, and the thing about boxes is that they have sharp corners and leave many people and factors out. This inevitably alienates many types of people in favor of pleasing some others. Boxing people into different categories fails to acknowledge the fluidity and dynamism of one's identity, and while it may have good intentions, it creates many enemies and loses sight of the original, clear-cut issue: respecting all living beings on the planet and treating everyone as equals. 

The way betas destroy social orders is by taking a cookie cutter to society and making division after division. Sure, it's radical, inspirational, and gets a lot of shit done. But in the long run it causes severe fragmentation and utter chaos. And (this is my favorite part) that's when the social landscape changes to favor the gamma quadra, which brings progress and efficiency out of the rubble of wasted resources, and advocates personal conviction and stubborn determination when facing the wasteland. 

Of course, everyone knows how frightfully isolated and self-serving gamma can get, so it will probably be followed by an alpha cycle which seeks to create comfort and positivity after a long spate of "hardship", rebellion and toil. And so it goes.

...oops, I rambled XD


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## Abraxas (May 28, 2011)

All I really use tumblr for is furry porn and hentai.

I wonder if I'm a good sample of the primary tumblr demographic though. People tend to exaggerate things that annoy them, so I'm skeptic as to whether or not tumblr is actually for being a SJW, or mostly for sharing pictures of naked things.

If the latter is true, then maybe there's a lot of gammas on there. Otherwise, maybe not.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Night Huntress said:


> On the other hand, they do this by creating box after box, and the thing about boxes is that they have sharp corners and leave many people and factors out. This inevitably alienates many types of people in favor of pleasing some others. Boxing people into different categories fails to acknowledge the fluidity and dynamism of one's identity, and while it may have good intentions, it creates many enemies and loses sight of the original, clear-cut issue: respecting all living beings on the planet and treating everyone as equals.
> 
> The way betas destroy social orders is by taking a cookie cutter to society and making division after division. Sure, it's radical, inspirational, and gets a lot of shit done. But in the long run it causes severe fragmentation and utter chaos. And (this is my favorite part) that's when the social landscape changes to favor the gamma quadra, which brings progress and efficiency out of the rubble of wasted resources, and advocates personal conviction and stubborn determination when facing the wasteland.


And if you point that out, they'll begin to ramble about the importance of intersectionality, LOL.



> Intersectionality (or intersectionalism) is the study of intersections between forms or systems of oppression, domination or discrimination. An example is black feminism, which argues that the experience of being a black woman cannot be understood in terms of being black, and of being a woman, considered independently, but must include the interactions, which frequently reinforce each other.[1]


I agree that intersectionality is important, but sometimes a person can just be without belonging to multiple categories.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Entropic said:


> And if you point that out, they'll begin to ramble about the importance of intersectionality, LOL.
> 
> I agree that intersectionality is important, but sometimes a person can just be without belonging to multiple categories.


I've not been fortunate enough to encounter any SJW who actually knows what that word means. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.


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## AdInfinitum (Oct 21, 2014)

Night Huntress said:


> I always feel rather awkward when I post overly personal opinions and I almost always take them down immediately. Meanwhile other people get so candid about everything going on in their life, how their partner dumped them, their birthday presents, where they're going out for dinner...
> 
> When I was an RPer I always got significantly weirded out by how people were so intent on forming a welcoming and nurturing community where they patted each other's backs. I always just wanted to do my own thing and only RP scenarios I found interesting, but apparently when you enter the RP community you have to try and build camaraderie with a lot of others. That was sooooo tiring.
> 
> ...


Word. I could not pin down what turn Tumblr has taken over the years as my interests have changed and the blogs I used to follow have faded yet indeed, the place has a way more aggressive scent in terms of values and ethical placements, a more "If you do not think <<...>> is wrong you should feel ashamed with yourself" concrete ideal meant to radically impose change without the choice for self discovery or different-perspective exploration which is indeed extremely Beta. Very real world oriented but at the same time revolutionary and big picture seeking, change oriented and mentality shifting. The force of Se and the visionary focus of Ni altogether with the collectivity of Fe without the emphasis on the individual and personal opinions. I wonder if all the quadras will have their time of glory in the future. Farewall Delta.

Fi users will mostly be heard through the Fe imposing nature of values and as a result of the massive highlight of need for change over the years, the quadra that has the most resonating voice in the ethical display is Beta right now.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Abraxas said:


> I wonder if I'm a good sample of the primary tumblr demographic though. People tend to exaggerate things that annoy them, so I'm skeptic as to whether or not tumblr is actually for being a SJW, or mostly for sharing pictures of naked things.


I think it's a bit of both. Tumblr is a good place for porn, indeed. :')


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## Inure Penumbra (May 13, 2012)

OMG Im so sorry i never realised the SJWs were my beta bethren. I also find them really annoying because they force their opinions on others using scare tactics which i dont have a lot of respect for. I want to apologize for their behaviour. Im very disappointed and sorry you have to deal with them. I always thought they were something else because I assumed that other betas would behave like me. I'm guessing that SJWs have SO instincts. I hate the groupthink and how I have to support certain celebrities like wtf why are celebrities even important. Though, I don't miss Delta tumblr either since it suffered heavily from special snowflake syndrome. 2012 tumblr was the best.



Night Huntress said:


> The archetypical Tumblr person is an opinionated individual with passionate opinions about social issues/fictional characters/obscure nonsense who also considers themselves awkward and confused in realistic situations.


I thought the obsession with fictional characters was more of an Ne/Si thing though since its random and so torn apart from reality.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@inura penumbra
Oh well, I don't think it's your fault that other Betas might have a tendency to be those kinds of SWJs. I mean, judging you based on that would be fairly ironic anyway, if you think about it.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

I use only Pinterest occasionally, which I found out to be a handy place to collect images by theme and keep them in one place online. 

Have an empty tumblr account and never really used tumblr except for occasional blog articles read, seeing nice gloomy art or saving some gifs.


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## Mizmar (Aug 12, 2009)

I have a facebook account which I use primarily to discover and share pics/videos of the things I like -- usually art, or pics of the natural world, sometimes a favorite song, ect. I rarely post personal life updates or images of myself (though people often tag me in pics they've taken of me). I don't post political views because, I can't really be bothered with that stuff. (I don't mind political discussions but I'd rather have them in person.)


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Inure Penumbra said:


> OMG Im so sorry i never realised the SJWs were my beta bethren. I also find them really annoying because they force their opinions on others using scare tactics which i dont have a lot of respect for. I want to apologize for their behaviour. Im very disappointed and sorry you have to deal with them. I always thought they were something else because I assumed that other betas would behave like me. I'm guessing that SJWs have SO instincts. I hate the groupthink and how I have to support certain celebrities like wtf why are celebrities even important. Though, I don't miss Delta tumblr either since it suffered heavily from special snowflake syndrome. 2012 tumblr was the best.


I appreciate the sentiment, but you don't have to apologize. Also, "SJW" has something of a negative connotation nowadays. A lot of people who are arguing very fair causes get flippantly labeled SJWs as a method of dismissal. But many of them are actually pretty nice people. And not always betas, too. 



> I thought the obsession with fictional characters was more of an Ne/Si thing though since its random and so torn apart from reality.


Anyone can be obsessed with fictional characters, but NFs in particular enjoy meta-analysis of the motivations and situations of characters. Intuition itself (in its purest form) is disconnected from reality. Ni can be just as disconnected as Ne is.


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## Inure Penumbra (May 13, 2012)

Night Huntress said:


> Anyone can be obsessed with fictional characters, but NFs in particular enjoy meta-analysis of the motivations and situations of characters. Intuition itself (in its purest form) is disconnected from reality. Ni can be just as disconnected as Ne is.


I'm starting to feel really disconnected from other NF types now. Tbh the only form of intuitive stuff i do is learning theories and how the world works. I've got a few classic sociology and political science books/collections, as well as three books on art. I barely read any fiction and I think I'm mostly focused on fostering real life relationships and not obsessing over those in books. Maybe I'm LII lmao


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## fair phantom (Mar 5, 2015)

In my experience tumblr used to have a much stronger delta presence than it now has. It used to be a refuge for me and I spent way too much time on there. But as time has passed I find it more and more _exhausting_, and correspondingly my time there has dwindled to where I might go a week without looking at my dashboard.

I will still defend tumblr to some extent because some important work is being done there. I think it can still be a great medium for allowing marginalized people to have a voice. But something is being lost, or perhaps smothered. I used to feel I could say what I wished there, but that feeling of acceptance has declined and so now I mostly use it to save pictures, for amusing humour posts, to read a couple of good meta blogs, and to comment on the text posts of friends. I don't really use it to express myself or explore ideas anymore.

I imagine this is not an uncommon experience.


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## Jeremy8419 (Mar 2, 2015)

Inure Penumbra said:


> I'm starting to feel really disconnected from other NF types now. Tbh the only form of intuitive stuff i do is learning theories and how the world works. I've got a few classic sociology and political science books/collections, as well as three books on art. I barely read any fiction and I think I'm mostly focused on fostering real life relationships and not obsessing over those in books. Maybe I'm LII lmao


That sounds like something very familiar... There's some term for it... I think... Maybe... It's called "adulthood." Lol.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

ildiavolo said:


> Reddit seems Alpha or Beta to me. I'm talking about mainstream Reddit as in what you see on the first page. What frustrates me is how it seems more like a social gathering where people spar with each other for karma and internet points as opposed to a forum devoted to insightful and serious discussion. Nothing against humor but when I click on a thread on r/news and see that the top comment is some goofy pun, it's rather annoying, not to mention the subsequent string of attempts at humor. You have to scroll down a lot to find a comment that actually addresses the topic.


WORD!

If I want to look at goofy jokes and stupid shit...guess what? I'll look at goofy jokes at sites specialised for them(idk...cracked and the like?). When I go to reddit or to some "serious" site, I go there for info or for a "deep"(if I can indeed be so vain to call my discussions deep) discussion on the topic. I don't go to a specialised forum(former BSN or battle.net or reddit or whatever) to crack jokes and troll. I mean...don't people have anything better to do? Even masturbating is better(hey! it's 147% more pleasurable :angry: ), so...wtf?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Inure Penumbra said:


> I'm starting to feel really disconnected from other NF types now. Tbh the only form of intuitive stuff i do is learning theories and how the world works. I've got a few classic sociology and political science books/collections, as well as three books on art. I barely read any fiction and I think I'm mostly focused on fostering real life relationships and not obsessing over those in books. Maybe I'm LII lmao


I focus on non-fiction, mostly theoretical occult stuff, metaphysics, typology. I was double-majoring in Sociology and PoliSci. NFs who do this are, in fact, a thing.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

I was thinking apple in the early days beta. Microsoft delta. google alpha. wikipedia delta (or some Te). Not sure what I would assign gamma, maybe wikileaks. 

for fun; Who is who!


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> for fun; Who is who!


I have a really bad cold, but I will not rest until I type them all!!


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Yeah, Tumblr is a Beta NF hellhole for small minds who think they're tough and radical. I wish I could take the hipster route and say "it used to be cool", but eh, at least there used to be _good stuff_ on there _sometimes_.



Kerik_S said:


> I was double-majoring in Sociology and PoliSci.


Got bored?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Yeah, Tumblr is a Beta NF hellhole for small minds who think they're tough and radical. I wish I could take the hipster route and say "it used to be cool", but eh, at least there used to be _good stuff_ on there _sometimes_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. Realized that not enough people actually cared in a non–_Tumblr-SJW_ way. And it was really heavy stuff, and I deeply connected it to actual problems I've seen in the world.

I wasn't going to take on that Superman complex if I know I'd only be surrounded by loud, obnoxious, _“small minds”_ from a _“hellhole”_.

I would have continued my studies if there existed a critical mass that I had access to, where we'd actually address the problems proactively rather than just fish for reblogs about _How Sophisticated Our Understanding (that we ripped from someone else and don't actually understand) Of Hashtag-PROBLEMATIC Shit Is_.

They're bollocks. I'd need solidarity and level-headed actual warriors (rather than hapless, mercenary parrots) in order to feel some shred of hope in even approaching the problems I learned about in Sociology and PoliSci.

I can't sail with a fleet of bollocks. So I jumped ship.

Now I just watch both sides bicker like idiots and focus on critiquing their stupidity so maybe they'll learn to think like adults. Maybe.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kerik_S said:


> No. Realized that not enough people actually cared in a non–_Tumblr-SJW_ way. And it was really heavy stuff, and I deeply connected it to actual problems I've seen in the world.
> 
> I wasn't going to take on that Superman complex if I know I'd only be surrounded by loud, obnoxious, _“small minds”_ from a _“hellhole”_.
> 
> ...


I never pursued a job in global studies precisely because too much political idealism. You sure you're not too cynical for an NF bro?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Kerik_S said:


> No. Realized that not enough people actually cared in a non–_Tumblr-SJW_ way. And it was really heavy stuff, and I deeply connected it to actual problems I've seen in the world.
> 
> I wasn't going to take on that Superman complex if I know I'd only be surrounded by loud, obnoxious, _“small minds”_ from a _“hellhole”_.
> 
> ...





The_Wanderer said:


> Yeah, Tumblr is a Beta NF hellhole for small minds who think they're tough and radical. I wish I could take the hipster route and say "it used to be cool", but eh, at least there used to be _good stuff_ on there _sometimes_.
> 
> 
> 
> Got bored?





Entropic said:


> I never pursued a job in global studies precisely because too much political idealism. You sure you're not too cynical for an NF bro?


I focus my ideals on the endgame of reconciling the dysfunctional way people talk about problems, in order to then eventually get them on-board with actually making progress.

I'm not so much cynical than realizing the bulk of "social justice" is far from the ideal forum to actually solve anything.

The idealism shows in my most-times pointless rallies of "We may disagree, but we're just fighting because of the lack of emotional restraint necessary to make progress. If we just fix the discourse, there's still hope! We can find superordinate goals and compromise!"

I just bemoan the time I wasted skipping the Address the Discourse part and going straight for the Expecting Angry, Attention-Seeking People To Make Progress When Their Discourse Is Completely Shoddy


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> You sure you're not too cynical for an NF bro?


Inside every cynic is a broken idealist...


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Inside every cynic is a broken idealist...


Bless the quippy extroverts who get straight to the point.:spam:


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Kerik_S said:


> Bless the quippy extroverts who get straight to the point.:spam:


Thank the late George Carlin for that one...


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Thank the late George Carlin for that one...


Damn. Mood change. :sadcloud:


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

The_Wanderer said:


> Inside every cynic is a broken idealist...


Typically SEE to go to such depths, but never admitting it


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Typically SEE to go to such depths, but never admitting it


Oh shizz, he's onto you.


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## Verity (Aug 2, 2014)

The_Wanderer said:


> Inside every cynic is a broken idealist...


Yes, and people often seem to miss that cynicism is just another way of caring. Glassy-eyed apathy is the true corruption imo. 

I've often wondered if it's possible to live without illusions though


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Verity said:


> Yes, and people often seem to miss that cynicism is just another way of caring. Glassy-eyed apathy is the true corruption imo.


Shit, even then there's a strong argument that apathy is often another mask worn by broken idealists; that it's simply a reaction to severe trauma. It's pretty black and white to chalk something like that.



Verity said:


> I've often wondered if it's possible to live without illusions though


Not if you're an idealist, or a cynic... or an intuitive-ego *poke*.


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