# The vegan/vegetarian vs. meat eater war



## coconut sharks (Apr 26, 2015)

I can kinda see how they would get offended or something if you didn't tell them you're not going to eat most of the stuff they prepared. Maybe you should've told them in advance?
I've met some vegetarians/vegans (in real life) and they've never tried to even encourage me to stop eating meat. They had some amazing recipes too. I admire their lifestyle.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Emologic said:


> Hitler was a vegetarian.


So?


----------



## BlueWings (Jan 27, 2015)

Emologic said:


> Hitler was a vegetarian.


That's a complete myth.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

BlueWings said:


> That's a complete myth.


It's not a myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism

Here's a video from a vegan lady who is also PhD student in holocaust studies, she summarizes all known info on it:


----------



## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

I don't eat red meat either, and I've never been attacked for it. While their behavior might be annoying, I wonder whether you're making this a larger issue than it actually is. Of course there are going to be people with extreme opinions who don't get along with other people whose extreme opinions don't match theirs and inevitably someone who is less extreme will get caught in the middle, but I don't think this is as common as people make it out to be. Just because some people shout louder doesn't mean they represent all the people who are not shouting.


----------



## Juiz (Dec 31, 2014)

@soop

Your avatar pic lool


----------



## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

No one should judge the eating dispositions of another. What matters far more is whether someone is healthy. It's fine to eat a piece of pie a la mode...it's bad to eat a pie a la mode.


----------



## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> No one should judge the eating dispositions of another. What matters far more is whether someone is healthy. It's fine to eat a piece of pie a la mode...it's bad to eat a pie a la mode.


So there is no connection between what you eat and health?


----------



## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

Euclid said:


> So there is no connection between what you eat and health?


----------



## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

Murica


----------



## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Popinjay said:


>


Did you miss the question mark?


----------



## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

Euclid said:


> Did you miss the question mark?


No but I missed your point, considering it didn't address anything in my post.


----------



## BlueWings (Jan 27, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> It's not a myth.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism
> 
> Here's a video from a vegan lady who is also PhD student in holocaust studies, she summarizes all known info on it:


Ok so I'll be honest I didn't really go through both of the entire sources, because I don't actually care that much whether a man known for mass genocide chose not to eat animals. Either way, he did not live a compassionate life. Also, vegetarianism includes cruelty towards animals through the dairy and egg industry, so it doesn't make him animal-friendly. 

My quick response was basically just in annoyance of the impression you gave off which made it seem like you were trying to demonize veganism/vegetarianism as an ethical stance, since I really don't see any other possible purpose for your original comment. If there was one, please enlighten me.


----------



## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> No but I missed your point, considering it didn't address anything in my post.


There isn't a point, just a question, because apparently there's something strange going on behind what you said, and I'm having difficulties finding a charitable interpretation of it.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

BlueWings said:


> Ok so I'll be honest I didn't really go through both of the entire sources, because I don't actually care that much whether a man known for mass genocide chose not to eat animals. Either way, he did not live a compassionate life. Also, vegetarianism includes cruelty towards animals through the dairy and egg industry, so it doesn't make him animal-friendly.
> 
> My quick response was basically just in annoyance of the impression you gave off which made it seem like you were trying to demonize veganism/vegetarianism as an ethical stance, since I really don't see any other possible purpose for your original comment. If there was one, please enlighten me.


I'm not the one who you answered to.


----------



## BlueWings (Jan 27, 2015)

Red Panda said:


> I'm not the one who you answered to.


Ok then the last paragraph was for whomever I answered to.


----------



## Popinjay (Sep 19, 2011)

Euclid said:


> There isn't a point, just a question, because apparently there's something strange going on behind what you said, and I'm having difficulties finding a charitable interpretation of it.


Considering your question in no way addresses any of the content of my post, clearly you are making a point with a sardonic tone (and a sarcastic '?').

If anyone is being charitable here...


----------



## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

Popinjay said:


> Considering your question in no way addresses any of the content of my post, clearly you are making a point with a sardonic tone (and a sarcastic '?').
> 
> If anyone is being charitable here...


... it's definitively not you, since I've explicitly stated I wasn't making a point.


----------



## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

Euclid said:


> ... it's definitively not you, since I've explicitly stated I wasn't making a point.


Even from a neutral perspective the question you asked doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Euclid (Mar 20, 2014)

sprinkles said:


> Even from a neutral perspective the question you asked doesn't make any sense.


I'm just going to sit back and wait until someone comes up with a charitable interpretation, since that's really the only reason I asked. If you don't understand the question, then you need to go and retake English 101.


----------



## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

Euclid said:


> I'm just going to sit back and wait until someone comes up with a charitable interpretation, since that's really the only reason I asked. If you don't understand the question, then you need to go and retake English 101.


The question was implicitly answered before you even asked it. If you missed that then it's you who needs to retake English.


----------



## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Your example sounds like their reaction towards "being picky". Some people can perceive ethical/spiritual choices as a sign of being ungrateful/spoiled. It's practically same for me when I'm being a guest of a vegan family member/friend. Just like everything we produce/consume, food is a political concept and there's no way to escape that tension.


----------



## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

soop said:


> I don't eat red meat either, and I've never been attacked for it. While their behavior might be annoying, I wonder whether you're making this a larger issue than it actually is.


You have to take into account where people live, too. I'm from a part of Texas where red meat is basically life for most people - steaks, burgers, bacon, etc. I hadn't been "attacked" per se by anyone until this point (besides family members who didn't like it - it's usually family members), but I've gotten a lot of weird looks/remarks when I inform people, and I've noticed people getting defensive about it multiple times. 

I don't think it's as much of an issue for people like us who've only cut out one type of food item. I know that it can be hugely annoying for vegans, though. Being vegan in the part of Texas I'm from would probably raise some kind of annoyance from other people on a weekly basis, if not even more often than that.

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. To me it seems obvious that a ton of people get their panties in a wad over other people's diets, but maybe you've noticed something different.



saccharine tangerine said:


> I can kinda see how they would get offended or something if you didn't tell them you're not going to eat most of the stuff they prepared. Maybe you should've told them in advance?





Wild said:


> I made sure that everyone who would ever need to feed me knew and understood fully what I don't eat.


They had known for about a year in advance, they'd just never "experienced" it in person.


----------



## Dagmar (Jun 26, 2016)

I'm probably gonna go 80% vegan pretty soon. People can tease you and tell you how much you're missing out on, but at the end of the day, you won't be the one with diabetes, clogged arteries or a heart attack... So that's something.


----------



## leictreon (Jan 4, 2016)

IDontThinkSo said:


> The only purpose of food doctrines is to make people feel smarter about their low-spec obsessions. The philosophical mystical and cultural sides are all smoke and mirrors.


Sums up what I think about this whole "food war" fiasco. I like meat. You like vegetables. All good, all good. Stop trying to "convert" other people to your "superior diet".

I personally don't like vegetables and don't wan to live very long so I don't care that much for diet, and I'm very picky about food in general anyways.


----------



## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm a vegan.

When I go to a birthday party, pool party, family gathering, etc., I know that there is going to be the typical spread of barbequed meat or meat sandwiches, mayonnaise-based salads, dairy dips, sugary cakes, ice cream, soda pop, etc. I don't eat any of that, but I don't expect the host/hostess to provide anything different from me. I'll either eat before I go, or if the host/hostess doesn't mind, bring my own food. So as not to be a distraction, I'll ask what type food they are serving and bring my substitutions accordingly. 

Last weekend I went to party where they were serving a taco buffet. I figured there would be rice and beans, tortilas, and they would serve meat-filler for the tacos. I brought my own single-serving container of Mexican rice (without chicken broth) and refried beans (without lard) and a baggie of chopped tofu. When it came time to eat I put my re-heated rice and beans on a plate (the same type everyone else was using) got in the buffet line and made a tofu taco by adding lettuce and tomato and guacamole. What was on my plate, pretty much looked like what was on everyone else's plate. 

I made my concession to being a good party guest by pulling that off as unobtrusively as possible. It's really not a big deal. Never even brought up the fact that I'm a vegan. 

Inevitably, though, someone else makes it their business to make an issue out of what I'm eating. 
(below, is literally all I said about it)

What is that? 
(me: tofu)
Eww gross.

Why did you bring your own rice? 
(me: most rice is made with chicken broth)
A little bit won't kill you. It's not like there is actually chicken in it.

Why did you bring your own beans?
(me: refried beans typically have lard in them) 
Well, come on, how much could possibly in there?

Now, tell me again why don't you eat cheese 
(me: I don't eat any animals or animal products) 
Pfft, they didn't kill the cow.

Now the whole table is talking about "how tasty" the meat is, how they "could never be a vegan", and asking me endless questions about:
why I decided to go vegan (I think it's a more healthful way of eating)
isn't that bad for you? (no, all my nutritional needs are met)
where do I get my protein? (plant sources)
is it hard to eat the diet? (no, super easy, actually)
don't I miss ice cream? (there are some really good plant-based options)


Can you just let me eat my taco in peace? 

If you ask these people later about me being a vegan, they'll probably reply that I made a big deal about what I eat, and lectured everyone about chicken stock and lard, and how dairy cows are abused. (nope never said anything like that)

No, I ate a taco. You're the ones that made it an issue. 

Ya. I'm the problem. :dry:


----------



## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

MsBossyPants said:


> I'm a vegan.
> 
> When I go to a birthday party, pool party, family gathering, etc., I know that there is going to be the typical spread of barbequed meat or meat sandwiches, mayonnaise-based salads, dairy dips, sugary cakes, ice cream, soda pop, etc. I don't eat any of that, but I don't expect the host/hostess to provide anything different from me. I'll either eat before I go, or if the host/hostess doesn't mind, bring my own food. So as not to be a distraction, I'll ask what type food they are serving and bring my substitutions accordingly.
> 
> ...


Well half of your post is criticising the people at that party so I think you are the one with the problem. 

If you don't like these people don't go to that party. Simples.


----------



## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Aridela said:


> Well half of your post is criticising the people at that party so I think you are the one with the problem.
> 
> *If you don't like these people don't go to that party. Simples.*


:laughing: I didn't even know most of them. 

Yet, they felt the need to comment on what I was eating, and then question it. The criticism is warranted. 

I was an invited guest. No reason to stay home. Simples.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

I used to be very much against vegetarianism and especially veganism from a nutrition perspective, but I've grown out of that lately. I guess I'm getting older. And know a lot more intelligent and educated vegans/vegetarians, who know how to compensate what they should be getting from animal products. I don't believe it's natural for humans, but it is doable. And I commend it from an ethical perspective. I'd love to not rely on meat, but unfortunately, that is not a very real option for me, unless I want to invest a lot more time, effort and money in it.

I've always been eating meat and animal products, apart from other reasons, because it's of the few things that I can easily digest, and previous doctor check ups in times when I haven't been eating much else show that I know how to take most of the nutrition a body needs from there. I can absorb it all better. Also, have not so severe, but relevant issues with gluten, and have quite a few issues with digesting most fruits and some nuts. So I guess it's a natural and easy thing for me to eat animal products. However, I do think of how it is for the animals, and I don't want them to suffer and die for my sake if I can help it. So I try eat meat from 'big' animals, where one animal dies to feed many, rather than to have multiple beings on my plate to eat - such as shrimps, which I love, but don't really eat anymore. And I've toned it down a lot. I used to eat meat every day, now I eat less.

The major issue for me is to keep the appropriate amout of protein intake. It's not as difficult for a chick that weights 50k to get 50g of protein, as it is for me to get at least 80g, and approaching 100g on workout days, which can be anywhere up to 5 days a week. I do eat a lot more vegan stuff, but even with all the chickpeas, beans and hokkaido, I seem to level out around 40-50g per day, which is not good, since I need muscle mass and regeneration for American football.

Also, when you eat meat, you eat a couple times a day. When you don't eat meat, you have to keep up a perpetual income of food. I don't have the time for that, I do activites.

Anyway, rambling over, I bet you didn't read it:laughing:


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Also, have heard from my sister, that there is artificial chicken meat available in the Netherlands that tastes, smells, and has the same texture, so I am curious to try that when I get the opportunity. That would be a feasible alternative for me.


----------



## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

MsBossyPants said:


> Can you just let me eat my taco in peace?
> 
> If you ask these people later about me being a vegan, they'll probably reply that I made a big deal about what I eat, and lectured everyone about chicken stock and lard, and how dairy cows are abused. (nope never said anything like that)
> 
> ...


Ugh. I'm so sorry.

I had (still have?) a friend from high school that was vegan long before I cut anything out of my diet by choice. The sheer amount of shit she got for it was incredible. Myself, I thought it was awesome - she was always bringing these fresh, colorful, delicious looking smoothies/salads/wraps to lunch, meanwhile most people were eating the revolting cafeteria meat. And people would _still_ complain about how restrictive her diet is while they shoveled mystery meat into their mouths. Even _teachers_ would prod her for reasons why she would ever choose to cut out meat/dairy, and criticize her on how you "need" those things to be healthy.

Oh, and another thing.

When people make you explain why you eat that way, they have a tendency to feel attacked. Like wtf? Don't ask me why I don't eat something if my answer is going to make you feel inferior. When I was asked about why I don't eat red meat at the party, the reason I gave was A) It's not great for you and B) I don't feel morally okay with eating something I wouldn't be willing to kill myself (any mammal). Then the whole table started coming up with justifications for the health value and morality of eating red meat.


----------



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Wild said:


> I feel like I didn't do a good job conveying this - I didn't expect them to prepare anything for me, nor did I say anything about it. I was totally fine eating what I had. The people in this situation noticed that I didn't have any meat on my plate, and started losing it as though they didn't already know that I wouldn't eat it.
> 
> My problem here isn't that I didn't have acceptable food, never has been. It's the behavior. In this case, they'd likely have been offended if I brought my own dish and seen it as haughty or an inadvertent way of suggesting the food wasn't good enough (the setup was that two people were cooking for and serving everyone).


While I rarely eat red meat myself, cuz too much of it can make me really nauseous; I have been in similar situations to you. Years ago, I had like a gazillion food allergies and my host was less than pleased trying to figure out how to accommodate my diet limitations. I always make it a point to let anyone who invites me for a food-related activity, that I am extremely allergic to peanuts and red kidney beans. If they refuse to accommodate me; I won't attend. Your problem is much simpler: Just request that they either prepare chicken or fish or you will have to bring your own dish. Either they accommodate you/make you feel welcome or they don't.


----------



## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Chesire Tower said:


> While I rarely eat red meat myself, cuz too much of it can make me really nauseous; I have been in similar situations to you. Years ago, I had like a gazillion food allergies and my host was less than pleased trying to figure out how to accommodate my diet limitations. I always make it a point to let anyone who invites me for a food-related activity, that I am extremely allergic to peanuts and red kidney beans. If they refuse to accommodate me; I won't attend. Your problem is much simpler: Just request that they either prepare chicken or fish or you will have to bring your own dish. Either they accommodate you/make you feel welcome or they don't.


Okay.

*The problem wasn't the accommodation*. I was perfectly fine as far as the food went, I had eaten before, I wasn't hurting for more food. That's not what I'm concerned about whatsoever.

My issue was with the outraged behavior that I don't eat one type of food item, which I had absolutely no way of circumventing in this case. I should probably mention that I also didn't really have a choice in attendance.


----------



## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

Most people seem to see their food as something necessary to stuff their face with, so they do not know how to be creative with things that are not usual for them. That is why there's the same types of things everywhere you go, and even to an extent the reason why vegan food items some times try to mimic traditional food items, as if it's not possible to be something unique.


----------



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Wild said:


> Okay.
> 
> *The problem wasn't the accommodation*. I was perfectly fine as far as the food went, I had eaten before, I wasn't hurting for more food. That's not what I'm concerned about whatsoever.
> 
> My issue was with the outraged behavior that I don't eat one type of food item, which I had absolutely no way of circumventing in this case. I should probably mention that I also didn't really have a choice in attendance.


Yeah, I *do* get it but my answer is still the same. Think about it: They aren't making you *feel welcome*; that was my point. Why didn't you "really have a choice in attendance"?


----------



## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Wild said:


> Ugh. I'm so sorry.
> 
> I had (still have?) a friend from high school that was vegan long before I cut anything out of my diet by choice. The sheer amount of shit she got for it was incredible. Myself, I thought it was awesome - she was always bringing these fresh, colorful, delicious looking smoothies/salads/wraps to lunch, meanwhile most people were eating the revolting cafeteria meat. And people would _still_ complain about how restrictive her diet is while they shoveled mystery meat into their mouths. Even _teachers_ would prod her for reasons why she would ever choose to cut out meat/dairy, and criticize her on how you "need" those things to be healthy.
> 
> ...


WTF?, indeed.

*They interrogate you* about why you choose to eat this way, you explain it from your own personal perspective, and *then they get defensive* about what they eat like *you* just attacked *them*. 

I particularly cringe when they randomly pop off with "no one is going to tell me I can't eat meat!!!!!". Well, Skippy, I never said you couldn't. I just said that I choose not to.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

MsBossyPants said:


> I'm a vegan.
> 
> When I go to a birthday party, pool party, family gathering, etc., I know that there is going to be the typical spread of barbequed meat or meat sandwiches, mayonnaise-based salads, dairy dips, sugary cakes, ice cream, soda pop, etc. I don't eat any of that, but I don't expect the host/hostess to provide anything different from me. I'll either eat before I go, or if the host/hostess doesn't mind, bring my own food. So as not to be a distraction, I'll ask what type food they are serving and bring my substitutions accordingly.
> 
> ...


That's nasty of them. The way you did it was very considerate and unobtrusive.

I do sometimes get curious about people's diets, I do sometimes ask, if the person is willing to share, but I hope I don't sound condescending. I truly ask so that if there's something I don't know I discover it and can try it. Though I doubt I'll ever go vegan, I feel okay trying some new foods or nutrition tips.


----------



## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

Dora said:


> That's nasty of them. The way you did it was very considerate and unobtrusive.
> 
> *I do sometimes get curious about people's diets, I do sometimes ask, if the person is willing to share, but I hope I don't sound condescending. I truly ask so that if there's something I don't know I discover it and can try it.* Though I doubt I'll ever go vegan, I feel okay trying some new foods or nutrition tips.


The awareness that you hope that you don't sound condescending means that you probably don't. :happy:


----------



## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Chesire Tower said:


> Yeah, I *do* get it but my answer is still the same. Think about it: They aren't making you *feel welcome*; that was my point. Why didn't you "really have a choice in attendance"?


It was a family thing, and I'm already somewhat on salty terms with some of the members because... Well, I'm a flake. I don't show up for things like holidays very often. I was also there in part to try and fix my broken relationship with my mom - for her sake, not mine. In short, if I hadn't gone it would've been kind of a "fuck you" to the people I went for.

I dunno. For the most part I did feel welcome until they singled me out over my diet. I don't see how I could've avoided that though, without irritating the above situation by just not showing up at all!

Sorry if I sounded salty in my response btw, I didn't mean to. I just keep getting responses giving me advice on how to make people accommodate me or how to be polite in these situations, and I'm like guys, I don't need it.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Wild said:


> It was a family thing, and I'm already somewhat on salty terms with some of the members because... Well, I'm a flake. I don't show up for things like holidays very often. I was also there in part to try and fix my broken relationship with my mom - for her sake, not mine. In short, if I hadn't gone it would've been kind of a "fuck you" to the people I went for.
> 
> I dunno. For the most part I did feel welcome until they singled me out over my diet. I don't see how I could've avoided that though, without irritating the above situation by just not showing up at all!
> 
> Sorry if I sounded salty in my response btw, I didn't mean to. I just keep getting responses giving me advice on how to make people accommodate me or how to be polite in these situations, and I'm like guys, I don't need it.


It's alright to be upset and hurt by how they acted. No advice needed. You did what you thought was right, and hopefully you're at peace with that.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Mind your own business. I have work to do.


----------



## Felipe (Feb 25, 2016)

Meat eaters can be assholes too, I've experienced it first hand when I refused to eat veal (which has inhumane process). And they kept trying to convince me it's just cow, it's made for you to eat. I could have given a proper answer, I just didn't have the backbone at the the time.:tongue:


----------



## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

I was always the only one in my immediate family to eat red meat for the most part (everyone is OK with hot dogs for some reason, and my sister eats bacon the past few years). So if we visit other family for the holidays, they usually have an alternative. Sometimes they make an effort to point it out lol. I think the "war" comes from people being dogmatic about it on both sides. 

Personally, where I live vegan/vegetarian dining is trendy (and more expensive) and that puts me off to whatever that subculture is...kinda like fashion branding but with food.

It can be more difficult to agree on places and dishes to eat with family or friends if their diets are different. Eating is kind of a bonding activity (even going back to caveman times). So maybe disrupting the flow of that by having meat eaters and non meat eaters together, creates a distance and a sense of not being part of the group. Especially for meat eaters, because maybe they're using more of the caveman instinct of bonding over a successful hunt, lol.


----------



## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

Nobody complains if it's Lent, or if you're Jewish or something. There's a lot of double standards going on for no reason.


----------



## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

sprinkles said:


> Nobody complains if it's Lent, or if you're Jewish or something. There's a lot of double standards going on for no reason.


People seem to value religious choice over dietary choices - personally, I don't see why it matters what type of personal choice it is. If you choose to do something for yourself, people should respect that.


----------



## B3LIAL (Dec 21, 2013)

At the end of the day - Killing animals is something most of us don't like. It's what most of us consider immoral but most people are blinded by propaganda thinking that they need to eat meat or they'll be "protein deficient" and drink cows milk or they'll get weak bones... lol.

If we stopped consuming animals products, or at least reduced our consumption, there'd be far less suffering on the planet.

Also, the environment would be far better off without animal agriculture.

Human being thrive on plant based diet.

This is fact.

You can be healthy eating only or mostly plants. You cannot be healthy eating only or mostly animal products.

We evolved to eat animal products because of environmental restrictions. It's something we can do if we need to, but it's not a necessity for most people.

We could also put a massive dent in world hunger as well.

I see no strong case for consuming the amount of animal products that we do.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

I have a maths involving sample problem for anyone willing to take me up on it.

So, I play American football, which is quite a physically draining sport, and I need to have a protein intake of at least 1g of protein to 1kg of my weight on days that I don't work out, and should have at least 1.3g to 1kg when I do, which is maybe 5x a week. I am 79.5kg for 166cm of height, and although a lot of it is muscle mass, I am overweight and need to lose weight, so am on a program for the last 4 months of 1410kcal daily, which allows me to lose cca 0.5kg per week.
Considering the constraints 80-103g of protein, 1410kcal daily, what would be a one day sample diet for a vegetarian?

To put this into perspective, I'm not trying to be an asshole. Quite the contrary, I've cut down on meat significantly (although, I am not intent on going full vegetarian), but would like to stay healthy, but struggle to put up more than cca 38g of protein daily, if I don't want to exceed the calorie limit. I do not have the time or money capacity to cook 5x a day, or to eat more than 5x a day.


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dora said:


> I have a maths involving sample problem for anyone willing to take me up on it.
> 
> So, I play American football, which is quite a physically draining sport, and I need to have a protein intake of at least 1g of protein to 1kg of my weight on days that I don't work out, and should have at least 1.3g to 1kg when I do, which is maybe 5x a week. I am 79.5kg for 166cm of height, and although a lot of it is muscle mass, I am overweight and need to lose weight, so am on a program for the last 4 months of 1410kcal daily, which allows me to lose cca 0.5kg per week.
> Considering the constraints 80-103g of protein, 1410kcal daily, what would be a one day sample diet for a vegetarian?
> ...


Looks like a diet based heavily on beans and low calorie protein shakes should help you reach you protein intake while remaining within your daily caloric intake. That diet sounds like it would become bland rather quickly so it would probably be best to get most of your protein from shakes then focus the remaining calories/carbs on making the bean dishes as tasty as possible.

When you're able to go back to a maintenance calorie intake is when you'd be able to experiment with a much wider range of vegetarian protein sources. Honestly though, trying to cut weight as a vegetarian sounds like it would suck, any way you try to slice it.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Looks like a diet based heavily on beans and low calorie protein shakes should help you reach you protein intake while remaining within your daily caloric intake. That diet sounds like it would become bland rather quickly so it would probably be best to get most of your protein from shakes then focus the remaining calories/carbs on making the bean dishes as tasty as possible.
> 
> When you're able to go back to a maintenance calorie intake is when you'd be able to experiment with a much wider range of vegetarian protein sources. Honestly though, trying to cut weight as a vegetarian sounds like it would suck, any way you try to slice it.


I do supplement with whey protein shakes, but it gets old pretty quickly. i actually enjoy food, so would like it to have some taste and variability. Also, I've heard this retired dude from the NFL that now does nutrition programs for up and coming athletes that the protein absorption from shakes is not ideal and is less than from actual foods, something to do with chewing. We are especially well geared to digest animal protein, and from what I've read and heard, that if taking non-animal protein, you need to ingest more to get the same amount absorbed.

I will continue to eat meat, despite ethical reservations, but I'd like to cut down on it, and especially, I don't want to have to need it daily to keep my protein intake anywhere near relevant. I do like beans though  And hokkaido. I can work with those for good taste.


----------



## INFPsyche (Nov 13, 2014)

I think it's interesting that people are like 'vegans and vegetarians won't shut up about their diet' but really it seems to be others who won't shut their mouths about it.. ..


I mean duh anyways.. Meat people are obsessed with their meat and I'm obsessed with my vegetables.. get over it..


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dora said:


> I do supplement with whey protein shakes, but it gets old pretty quickly. i actually enjoy food, so would like it to have some taste and variability. Also, I've heard this retired dude from the NFL that now does nutrition programs for up and coming athletes that the protein absorption from shakes is not ideal and is less than from actual foods, something to do with chewing. We are especially well geared to digest animal protein, and from what I've read and heard, that if taking non-animal protein, you need to ingest more to get the same amount absorbed.
> 
> I will continue to eat meat, despite ethical reservations, but I'd like to cut down on it, and especially, I don't want to have to need it daily to keep my protein intake anywhere near relevant. I do like beans though  And hokkaido. I can work with those for good taste.


Absorption from shakes not being a good source is only for protein shakes that pack in too much protein density. The intestines typically are only able to absorb about 1g of protein for every 50-60g of food. So packing any more protein per that amount of bulk is pointless. Yes, I believe whey isn't the most absorbable protein but it's at least natural. Chewing food would be irrelevant as to digestion when it comes to shakes.

I think including eggs would be a good source of protein and good cholesterol and doesn't have nearly the same "ethical" problems as consuming flesh does. I put ethical in quotations because I don't find eating meat to be unethical.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Absorption from shakes not being a good source is only for protein shakes that pack in too much protein density. The intestines typically are only able to absorb about 1g of protein for every 50-60g of food. So packing any more protein per that amount of bulk is pointless. Yes, I believe whey isn't the most absorbable protein but it's at least natural. Chewing food would be irrelevant as to digestion when it comes to shakes.
> 
> I think including eggs would be a good source of protein and good cholesterol and doesn't have nearly the same "ethical" problems as consuming flesh does. I put ethical in quotations because I don't find eating meat to be unethical.


I believe eating meat is natural and that it's what my body was geared towards doing. I'm actually way better than average people in digesting any and all animal products. I can drink unpasteurized milk and I'm fine, I can eat anything that's come from an animal, and it's easy to digest. I've also had blood tests when I was on an almost exclusively animal product diet and it showed that I am really great at absorbing what is good to absorb and not absorbing too much of the unhealthy. My blood work looked like a sample of "perfectly nurtured healthy human". I also don't digest a lot of fruit and vegetables well, definitely not raw, and some even cooked, and have a mild gluten intolerance, it's very inflammatory for me.

However, I do have a lot of compassion and find it difficult to imagine the living conditions of animals that serve as my food or the source of my food and how they feel, whether they're in pain, or whether they're scared... So from that perspective, I'd like to be able to live in a utopistic world, where nobody suffers and my conscience is clear of causing suffering to others. I don't believe in utopia, however, if there are steps I can take that will make a positive mark for someone, then why not? I've cut down on meat, I pay for eggs that are from free range, as opposed to caged chickens, I prefer eating big animals, like a cow, where one dies to feed many, as opposed to eating the tiny ones, where multiple die to feed me. It won't change the world, nevertheless...

However, I am quite unaware of what are my nutrition alternatives that would work within the limits of my life - ease of access, ease of preparation, time constraints, heavy workouts, budget tighter than a virgin's bum...


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dora said:


> I believe eating meat is natural and that it's what my body was geared towards doing. I'm actually way better than average people in digesting any and all animal products. I can drink unpasteurized milk and I'm fine, I can eat anything that's come from an animal, and it's easy to digest. I've also had blood tests when I was on an almost exclusively animal product diet and it showed that I am really great at absorbing what is good to absorb and not absorbing too much of the unhealthy. My blood work looked like a sample of "perfectly nurtured healthy human". I also don't digest a lot of fruit and vegetables well, definitely not raw, and some even cooked, and have a mild gluten intolerance, it's very inflammatory for me.
> 
> However, I do have a lot of compassion and find it difficult to imagine the living conditions of animals that serve as my food or the source of my food and how they feel, whether they're in pain, or whether they're scared... So from that perspective, I'd like to be able to live in a utopistic world, where nobody suffers and my conscience is clear of causing suffering to others. I don't believe in utopia, however, if there are steps I can take that will make a positive mark for someone, then why not? I've cut down on meat, I pay for eggs that are from free range, as opposed to caged chickens, I prefer eating big animals, like a cow, where one dies to feed many, as opposed to eating the tiny ones, where multiple die to feed me. It won't change the world, nevertheless...
> 
> However, I am quite unaware of what are my nutrition alternatives that would work within the limits of my life - ease of access, ease of preparation, time constraints, heavy workouts, budget tighter than a virgin's bum...


Eating meat is natural but eating fruits and vegetables is as well. If humans were meant to be primary meat eaters, we'd have much sharper teeth except for only 4 canines, with the rest being more suited for a herbivore type diet. Humans are omnivorous. No comment on the rest of what you wrote except the last sentence. Eating vegetarian is much less expensive than eating a lot of animal protein. Anyways, best of luck! I used to be super into nutrition and fitness so I'm a pretty good source of information on the topic; plus I don't use stupid bro science.


----------



## soop (Aug 6, 2016)

B3LIAL said:


> At the end of the day - Killing animals is something most of us don't like. It's what most of us consider immoral but most people are blinded by propaganda thinking that they need to eat meat or they'll be "protein deficient" and drink cows milk or they'll get weak bones... lol.
> 
> If we stopped consuming animals products, or at least reduced our consumption, there'd be far less suffering on the planet.
> 
> ...


Its not impossible for someone to be healthy eating mostly animal products. It might not be likely but its not impossible. The facts are generally on your side which is why vegans relying on hyperbole as a tactic annoys me.


----------



## Wartime Consigliere (Feb 8, 2011)

To anyone who identifies as vegetarian/vegan, would you accept a gift of food with meat/dairy in it if it was purchased/prepared for you (without your knowledge) and would be thrown to waste if you refused to eat it?

This is the one grey area/issue of this I'm having trouble deciding where I stand on. At that point, there's nothing that can be done to prevent the suffering of the animal used to make it or other animals in future (it was already sold, so even if you refuse to eat it, the market of it is going to be supported anyway) so I don't really see any nobility or moral high ground in insisting the meat/dairy product goes to waste.


----------



## AshOrLey (May 28, 2016)

People couldn't stop talking about my veganism last thanksgiving. I kind of thought it was hilarious. I only had carrots and some broccoli on my plate, which made it even funnier. The entire time I could just see my grandma imploding, though. :laughing::crying: But honestly veganism is just...different to them. They don't understand it. If you ever expect most people to understand it...unless your living in India, you'll be disappointed continuously. Try to not get emotional about it/too worked up, though. I know it can be annoying when everyone suddenly becomes a health expert as they pretend to have some degree in nutrition, but not all people are like that. Some are just curious/caring. 

Also, I think it's relatively easy to get people to start thinking about dairy in more depth. Like maybe ask them, why don't we drink giraffe's milk? :laughing: Picturing a human baby drinking from a cow's udder is just awkward. But take their views into consideration as well. Raw milk can apparently heal cavities. The human body is a complex thing, that's fosho. 

My theory is that it may depend on the environment. For example, know the 'bad teeth' vegan stereotype? Well, what contributes to this? Fruit. Namely, citrus fruit. Many tropical fruits. What does citrus fruit do to your teeth, exactly? It cleans the plaque off. Where do these tropical fruits primarily grow? The tropics. What do you think of when you imagine the tropics? Sparkling water...lush foliage...aaaand, sun! What essential nutrient does sun provide? Vitamin D. What is one of the main things Vitamin D does for the body? Tooth remineralization. Boom!

Why do most humans like the tropics? Well, I think that is one of the reasons a vegan diet is perfect for most people.

I'm not really an ethical vegan, but I understand the perspective of ethical veganism. I annoyingly feel for everything, even objects at times. Just know that no one will ever fully understand your perspective, on anything in general.



Binge Thinker said:


> To anyone who identifies as vegetarian/vegan, would you accept a gift of food with meat/dairy in it if it was purchased/prepared for you (without your knowledge) and would be thrown to waste if you refused to eat it?
> 
> This is the one grey area/issue of this I'm having trouble deciding where I stand on. At that point, there's nothing that can be done to prevent the suffering of the animal used to make it or other animals in future (it was already sold, so even if you refuse to eat it, the market of it is going to be supported anyway) so I don't really see any nobility or moral high ground in insisting the meat/dairy product goes to waste.


This is difficult for me as well. Personally, I might not eat it because if I don't eat meat/dairy for a very long time, my body stops producing most of the enzymes necessary for digesting meat/dairy. I will get extremely bad stomach spasms, and constipation. So purely for health reasons.

(off topic) Which is actually another reason why veganism seems like the perfect diet to me. Because of this:

When you first eat a lot of fruit, what will you get? Something along the lines of diarrhea.
When you first eat meat/dairy, what will you get? Its opposite - constipation.
What happens when you have food poisoning? Diarrhea. 
Why do you get diarrhea when you have food poisoning? Because your body is doing an emergency cleanse.

Now the question remains...if meat and dairy are as perfect for us as grass is for cows...why the heck does it not contribute at all in the cleansing of our system?


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Scoobyscoob said:


> Eating meat is natural but eating fruits and vegetables is as well. If humans were meant to be primary meat eaters, we'd have much sharper teeth except for only 4 canines, with the rest being more suited for a herbivore type diet. Humans are omnivorous. No comment on the rest of what you wrote except the last sentence. Eating vegetarian is much less expensive than eating a lot of animal protein. Anyways, best of luck! I used to be super into nutrition and fitness so I'm a pretty good source of information on the topic; plus I don't use stupid bro science.


Yeah, I'm not claiming it was a healthy diet, nor advertising that people should try it. Just saying, that I am better adapted to it than the average person. I appreciate actual advice, rather than bro science.
My sister is a nutrition specialist for athletes, but she's not a big fan of vegetarian or vegan from a nutrition perspective. She will tell me what plant foods are a good source of whatever nutrient and a good supplement, but she will also tell me that she would never recommend vegetarian diet if not for some special requirements of the person.


----------



## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dora said:


> Yeah, I'm not claiming it was a healthy diet, nor advertising that people should try it. Just saying, that I am better adapted to it than the average person. I appreciate actual advice, rather than bro science.
> My sister is a nutrition specialist for athletes, but she's not a big fan of vegetarian or vegan from a nutrition perspective. She will tell me what plant foods are a good source of whatever nutrient and a good supplement, but she will also tell me that she would never recommend vegetarian diet if not for some special requirements of the person.


No, that's horseshit. There are a lot of professional athletes that are vegetarian or promote a mostly vegetarian diet. Vegetarians eat a lot of fibers including complex carbs which is exactly what most athletes need to perform. However, what you're talking about is strictly bulk, which for most sports is pointless. We can get into different muscle types and how that's relevant to a sport, but that would be a different conversation entirely.

FYI: Body builders are technically considered fat. Because their level of bulk isn't normal. Look at most linemen on football teams, they're bulked up but not what you would consider be an athletic body.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Scoobyscoob said:


> No, that's horseshit. There are a lot of professional athletes that are vegetarian or promote a mostly vegetarian diet. Vegetarians eat a lot of fibers including complex carbs which is exactly what most athletes need to perform. However, what you're talking about is strictly bulk, which for most sports is pointless. We can get into different muscle types and how that's relevant to a sport, but that would be a different conversation entirely.
> 
> FYI: Body builders are technically considered fat. Because their level of bulk isn't normal. Look at most linemen on football teams, they're bulked up but not what you would consider be an athletic body.


Well, it's rather a preference, of course you can have vegetarian athletes. She's not a fan of it though. And that's fair.

But yeah, I find body-builders rather unaesthetic. I don't care about bulk, I care about efficiency and regeneration. Actually, being too bulky can get in the way. And in football, you have all sorts of figures. Linemen in general are big and have a lot of body fat. Wide receivers on the other hand are rarely bulky. The position I play is inside linebacker, which suits my figure well, although, I need to trim down on fat and lose another 10kg (I've lost 10kg in the past 4 months), but I shouldn't lose the muscle. The muscle I have is the muscle I need.


----------



## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Wild said:


> But then again, I live in Texas.
> 
> *The point of this thread is to get people talking about this war between meat eaters and vegetarians/vegans*. I'm not a vegetarian or vegan myself yet, but I already get people throwing fits about how I don't eat red meat - and I sense that it's because they're offended by vegetarianism, and feel like I'm "turning to the dark side".


The land of pest(s).

*Eat *or be _eating_, playa.

I will consume a vegan as well - if necessary.

A vegan will not fight it. As famine and catastrophe spread(s) + pollutes the planet (&) only humaniod(s) are left - vegan(s) are the first easiest (&) optimal targets until replenishment. 

̿̿’̿’\̵͇̿̿\=(҂◣ ◢)=/̵͇̿̿/’̿̿ ̿ ̿ ̿ ​


----------

