# Transgendered INTJ.



## cipherdecrypt (Apr 30, 2017)

Figured an intellectual NT temperament conversation about transgenderism would be interesting. I am female bodied but identified male. The terminology sounds a bit ridiculous, I know. Any questions are welcome, considering I don't get offended basically whatsoever (obviously), and being it may help considerably to answer my own.


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## Omg (Apr 3, 2017)

cipherdecrypt said:


> Figured an intellectual NT temperament conversation about transgenderism would be interesting. I am female bodied but identified male. The terminology sounds a bit ridiculous, I know. Any questions are welcome, considering I don't get offended basically whatsoever (obviously), and being it may help considerably to answer my own.


What is your definition of trans? In my place, people usually knky called trans if they are going for a surgery to change their gender, but I also read online that trans means a different sex of a person's soul/spirit and biological gender.


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## mrkesu (Apr 17, 2017)

What is your view on people trying to hijack the word "gender" to encompass absolutely everything people feel like?


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

It must be alienating to be an INTJ *and* trans. 

Are you a part of any other minority groups (sexual, ethnic, religious, etc.) ?


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## Zerobot (Apr 29, 2017)

Oh, I'm curious to know your opinion about gender and also the binary comprehension of gender/sex. I might be way wrong, but I tend to think that many transgendered people denounces the idea of gender on basis that it's an actual social construct (therefore, non natural - there's this negative judgment of value of the idea given it's not inherent to humans), but still, defines themselves as belonging to one gender or another. And then there's - again, I'm not too certain - the difference between transexual and transgender that accentuates the logical inconsistency above, I mean, as I imagine, in the conception of transexual, to a person become someone that identifies as one gender, they must alter their biological sex, which seem to be the opposite of what they believe.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

mrkesu said:


> What is your view on people trying to hijack the word "gender" to encompass absolutely everything people feel like?


lol


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

mrkesu said:


> What is your view on people trying to hijack the word "gender" to encompass absolutely everything people feel like?


The word has been hijacked long before now--which is why most people tended to use "sex" and "gender," since gender means so many different things to different people.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Ah I can finally ask my politically incorrect questions. 

If being trans is not a 'mental illness', but is considered a medical condition necessitating medical intervention... what kind of condition is it? And how do some trans people justify wanting to "de-medicalize" being trans, but also wanting insurance to pay for everything?

Also, if gender is a social construct doesn't that mean that people change their gender for social reasons and not because of something internal like their brain wiring? Isn't that notion kind of in conflict with the concept of being trans (i.e., anyone can just declare themselves male or female for some perceived social gain/approval)?


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Ah I can finally ask my politically incorrect questions.
> 
> If being trans is not a 'mental illness', but is considered a medical condition necessitating medical intervention... what kind of condition is it? And how do some trans people justify wanting to "de-medicalize" being trans, but also wanting insurance to pay for everything?
> 
> Also, if gender is a social construct doesn't that mean that people change their gender for social reasons and not because of something internal like their brain wiring? Isn't that notion kind of in conflict with the concept of being trans (i.e., anyone can just declare themselves male or female for some perceived social gain/approval)?


I have considered that as well. I actually think it's probably beneficial to the trans community that it be formally considered a mental illness. Yes there is some level of social stigma attached to that, but the umbrella would protect the community legally and for insurance purposes in a way that their exclusion does not.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

BlackDog said:


> I have considered that as well. I actually think it's probably beneficial to the trans community that it be formally considered a mental illness. Yes there is some level of social stigma attached to that, but the umbrella would protect the community legally and for insurance purposes in a way that their exclusion does not.


I question fundamentally how it should be classified. There's such little discussion on that because it's been so politicized. But there are psychiatric disorders such as depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar etc that are responsive (to varying degrees) to medications and therapy. Then there are others like schizophrenia and autism which are more neurological, and in a way less stigmatized in modern times because they are seen as more "biological" (hardwired?) in origin. I.e. not something a person can change. So some moral burden is taken off the individual. Transgenderism seems more similar to the latter (and to homosexuality) in that regard -- it isn't responsive to typical psychiatric interventions. 

Then again, putting homosexuality in the same category as schizophrenia and autism doesn't make much sense.

Of course, there are cases of mental illness like borderline personality where people can develop gender identity issues as sort of a secondary problem, but that tends to be treatable with the condition.

*shrugs* I suspect transgenderism should fall more under the neurological/neuropsychiatric umbrella. I seem to be alone in that thought, though. Even those who want to change its classification from a mental illness typically argue for it to fall into the intersex umbrella. I don't think there's enough medical evidence for that.


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## Tamehagane (Sep 2, 2014)

ninjahitsawall said:


> I question fundamentally how it should be classified. There's such little discussion on that because it's been so politicized. But there are psychiatric disorders such as depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar etc that are responsive (to varying degrees) to medications and therapy. Then there are others like schizophrenia and autism which are more neurological, and in a way less stigmatized in modern times because they are seen as more "biological" (hardwired?) in origin. I.e. not something a person can change. So some moral burden is taken off the individual. Transgenderism seems more similar to the latter (and to homosexuality) in that regard -- it isn't responsive to typical psychiatric interventions.
> 
> Then again, putting homosexuality in the same category as schizophrenia and autism doesn't make much sense.
> 
> ...


Mental retardation and schizophrenia _aren’t _in the same category… In the DSM, Schizophrenia is in Axis I or “Psychological disorders,” Autism is in Axis II, “Personality Disorders & Mental Retardation.”

Personality disorders don’t respond to treatment. This is where you have Psychopaths or Schizoids, and where I would classify Transgenderism if it really isn't treatable.

Gender-fluidity is trendy these days, though. They'd have to sort out who's actually Transgender and who just has a Tumblr account.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Tamehagane said:


> Mental retardation and schizophrenia _aren’t _in the same category… In the DSM, Schizophrenia is in Axis I or “Psychological disorders,” Autism is in Axis II, “Personality Disorders & Mental Retardation.”
> 
> Personality disorders don’t respond to treatment. This is where you have Psychopaths or Schizoids, and where I would classify Transgenderism if it really isn't treatable.
> 
> Gender-fluidity is trendy these days, though. They'd have to sort out who's actually Transgender and who just has a Tumblr account.


That'd be a new disorder though, because trans people tend not to meet the criteria for personality disorders/psychopathy (unless they have a personality disorder causing gender issues - this can occur with dissociative identity disorder i.e. "multiple personalties", where personalities have different genders; or borderline, which in turn can occur due to trauma like sexual assault... so there is probably an obvious explanation there).

I don't think that axis system is utilized anymore in DSM-V. There is some overlap between schizophrenia and autism though, in terms of brain development.


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## Tamehagane (Sep 2, 2014)

ninjahitsawall said:


> That'd be a new disorder though, because trans people tend not to meet the criteria for personality disorders/psychopathy (unless they have a personality disorder causing gender issues - this can occur with dissociative identity disorder i.e. "multiple personalties", where personalities have different genders; or borderline, which in turn can occur due to trauma like sexual assault... so there is probably an obvious explanation there).
> 
> I don't think that axis system is utilized anymore in DSM-V. There is some overlap between schizophrenia and autism though, in terms of brain development.


I merely brought up the different categories because I was thinking that classifying transgenderism as a psychological disorder would give more credence to the "gender is a social/mental construct" idea, whereas if it "hardwired" as a personality disorder, it would imply that gender is innate.

After thinking about it for a moment, it doesn't quite make sense, but I can imagine it being used as an argument.

...Why do people care?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Tamehagane said:


> I merely brought up the different categories because I was thinking that classifying transgenderism as a psychological disorder would give more credence to the "gender is a social/mental construct" idea, whereas if it "hardwired" as a personality disorder, it would imply that gender is innate.
> 
> After thinking about it for a moment, it doesn't quite make sense, but I can imagine it being used as an argument.
> 
> ...Why do people care?


Generally, there should be an understanding of how to define something in order to properly treat (or at least research) it. 

Though there are also major logical consistencies with the way the "social construct" idea is presented (as if it can be as easily 'deconstructed' as it was 'constructed', if only people had more awareness of their social beings), while simultaneously arguing that one was "born that way". 

The argument that sexuality is a choice (basically a type of social construct) is usually laughed at by LGBT activists, so it's ironic that trans people would insist on the social construction of gender, as if there is nothing about gender that's inherent to the person. 

I was actually talking to a friend about this recently, how the notion of a gender identity seems nonsensical in that way; he suggested it is just another symptom of gender dysphoria, that in order to dissociate oneself from their bodies they have to insist on their identity being separated from their biology -- hence socially constructed.


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## HeadofHudet (Jun 7, 2015)

How would you define your male identity? Is it about specific personality traits? If so, would you say that other females with those traits should be considered male, too?


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## justAndroid (Aug 13, 2016)

cipherdecrypt said:


> I am female bodied but identified male.


Is "I identify as male" the same as "I am male" ?
Considering you actually said that, because you said "identified", which is passive participle, which form suggests that something was done to he subject from outside.


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## Seefow (Apr 19, 2017)

A trans gender person who identifies with the most "intellektual" type hmmm... Who has a picture of a person with two middle fingers thrown up in a very typical tumblr fashion, intellektually flipping the bird of course. Who's first post on a site which topic does not relate what so ever to gender debates, was about transgenderism and asking others to have her, sorry him as the focus of the thread. Yes very interesting stuff right here for sure. 


Here is a question I would like answered, why did you choose to identify as a male rather than simply accepting you are a women who is masculine and/or a lesbian. Could you feel the phantom dick? I'm very interested how a "Te user" such as yourself would attempt to logically conclude they should pretend to be a man, rather than accepting the body/genetics they were placed in.


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## Threeravens (May 1, 2017)

To study and not think is a waste, to think and not study is dangerous.

A simple gaze into the scientific research done in this subject would have saved most of you a lot of face.
Although we do not have much work done in the field of transgenderism, there is a lot of research done about homosexuality.

We know that homosexuality is not a developmental disorder, but simply a variance in neurostructure, most likely associated with the hormonal environment in utero. We know that there are certain factors that increase the likelihood of being homosexual (e.g. maternal catecholamines during pregnancy, previous number of pregnancies, etc.) And we know that in homosexual men, these factors end up in some regions of the brain forming "female" structures. Much like you wouldn't associate a cleft chin, brown eyes, or a birthmark a disease; nor should you consider this to be one.

It is not too much of a stretch to consider transsexuality another form of this "cross-gendered brain" phenomenon. Whereas homosexuals have some parts of their brains which make them attracted to people of their own sex, some act in a more "effeminate" fashion, some are more "butch". Thus, we know that there is a spectrum of possible outcomes of this brain wiring. As there is yet no empirical evidence to support this following idea, I'll say "perhaps": Perhaps one of these outcomes is that you feel like you were supposed to have a body with different sexual characteristics.

I will wax philosophical and say: You are your neurons. If your brain is cross-gendered, and this is not simply a symptom of a psychotic or other kind of neuropathological situation (which the DSM tries to assess), it is your body which is faulty. Thus it should not be classified as a "mental disorder" but a bodily one.

Unless you are American, the idea behind healthcare is not just insurance; but to benefit members of society so that not only are they free of disease, but their quality of life increases. Granted, we are not living in a post-scarcity utopia where every single operation can be covered by social healthcare, but this should be our end-goal.


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## Seefow (Apr 19, 2017)

Threeravens said:


> ...


The differences in brain structure between gay and straight people are slight and yes there is some minor evidence. However at the end of the day you need to stop fantasizing science lad, there's a difference between evidence of some gay men having slighty feminine brains, compared to having evidence that transgendered people are literally in the wrong body. 

Lets just pretend for one second that somehow there was a "trans gene". What would it matter unless you wanted to remove or add said gene? The fact remains that the rest of your bodies genetics are that of a man or woman. Until humanity can develop a ray that changes your body to that of the other sex then you are what you are. 


Also romancing healthcare is pretty funny, as a Canadian I can tell you from personal experience what the difference is between having it or not. Americans buy their "healthcare" when they fall ill, Canadians buy their healthcare for the whole of their lives. Americans can actually get treated the hour they walk into a clinic, I know Canadians who have had screwdrivers stuck in their heads or huge gaping wounds have to sit waiting for 8+ hours. 

Anything that is "free" will be abused by leeches and those who are beyond selfish in nature. Why should I have to pay for the treatment of people who willingly put themselves in harms way by either drinking, drugs, obesity, stupid activities, smoking etc. Even if I would not have had to use the hospital even once in my life I would still be paying for it to be used by retards.


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## Finny (Jul 17, 2015)

HeadofHudet said:


> How would you define your male identity? Is it about specific personality traits? If so, would you say that other females with those traits should be considered male, too?


Transsexualism (or now called transgenderism) is caused by feeling like one's not in the correct sex's body. For example, if a biological female wanted to become a male through hormones and surgery, that person may feel that their hips are too wide, that they don't have the right genitals, that they should have more hair on their body, and that their breasts should be flat. Some social aspects may be pronouns and appearance (clothing, hair), but it MUST accompany the feeling that they are in the wrong sex's body. Simply wanting to dress in masculine clothing or act traditionally male does not make a person transsexual / transgender (I understand the terms have actually different but now they are used together).


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## Threeravens (May 1, 2017)

Seefow said:


> The differences in brain structure between gay and straight people are slight and yes there is some minor evidence. However at the end of the day you need to stop fantasizing science lad, there's a difference between evidence of some gay men having slighty feminine brains, compared to having evidence that transgendered people are literally in the wrong body.
> 
> Lets just pretend for one second that somehow there was a "trans gene". What would it matter unless you wanted to remove or add said gene? The fact remains that the rest of your bodies genetics are that of a man or woman. Until humanity can develop a ray that changes your body to that of the other sex then you are what you are.
> ...


I've read and re-read your post a couple of times to make sense of it.

Are you saying that because we cannot change the body of a transgendered person *completely*, we should not do anything?

Obviously gender reassignment surgery is not a miracle cure. There is no such thing as a miracle cure. We make do with what we have. Some girls are born without a vagina. To enable them to have a sexual life, surgeons make a vagina out of intestines. This girl's genetic makeup that made the girl not have a vagina remains the same in the rest of her body, but now, she can enjoy sex.

Aside from the complete idiocy of that "all-or-nothing" argument, you would do well to be informed that sexuality is not caused 100% by a single gene. There are epigenetic and environmental factors included, as I have stated in my post.

And indeed, it is not up to you to decide whether or not a transgendered person would benefit from a gender reassignment surgery - this is the choice of the patient.


On the subject of social healthcare, I'm sorry that you have had a negative experience with the healthcare of your country, but you might be pleased to know that statistically (and statistics are more objective than anecdotes and "I know of patients who..." stories) your country does much better than the US. This is a different subject and deserves discourse in another thread.

I hope you were not going to argue that people might exploit the system to have gender reassignment surgery - an operation with no return - done to them.


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## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

ninjahitsawall said:


> That'd be a new disorder though, because trans people tend not to meet the criteria for personality disorders/psychopathy (unless they have a personality disorder causing gender issues - this can occur with dissociative identity disorder i.e. "multiple personalties", where personalities have different genders; or borderline, which in turn can occur due to trauma like sexual assault... so there is probably an obvious explanation there).
> 
> I don't think that axis system is utilized anymore in DSM-V. There is some overlap between schizophrenia and autism though, in terms of brain development.


Hm. My aunt ( previously uncle) suffered from depression and schotzophernia. After gender reassignment surgery she is a completley different persion-outgoing, bubbly, very happy.

To be honest, I don't really know where I'm going with this as I have no new information to add, I just found this interesting. I always assumed that his mental issues where because of his dismorphia, but you're saying that it could be the opposite?


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## Seefow (Apr 19, 2017)

Threeravens said:


> I've read and re-read your post a couple of times to make sense of it.


Thanks for letting me know, if you have the same problem perhaps consider seeing an eye specialist and having an iq test to check if your doing all right.



Threeravens said:


> Are you saying that because we cannot change the body of a transgendered person *completely*, we should not do anything?


Until the day you can change chromosomes and the entire body structure then yes you should accept that biologically you are what you are born as.



Threeravens said:


> Obviously gender reassignment surgery is not a miracle cure.


Lmfao have you watched and read about what is done? Besides being revolting, your right about it being far from a miracle cure, in fact I would say its far from even being considered as any sort of cure.



Threeravens said:


> Some girls are born without a vagina...


Oh yes this is clearly related to someone who tries to deny their entire genetic makeup. Gender isn't just male=dick female = vagina



Threeravens said:


> Aside from the complete idiocy of that "all-or-nothing" argument, you would do well to be informed that sexuality is not caused 100% by a single gene..


I said "_Lets just pretend for one second that somehow there was a "trans gene"._", can you see the word pretend in that sentence? Really mate you should probably get your eyes checked.



Threeravens said:


> And indeed, it is not up to you to decide whether or not a transgendered person would benefit from a gender reassignment surgery - this is the choice of the patient.


Nor did I say it was



Threeravens said:


> On the subject of social healthcare, I'm sorry that you have had a negative experience with the healthcare of your country, but you might be pleased to know that statistically (and statistics are more objective than anecdotes and "I know of patients who..." stories) your country does much better than the US.


Statistically my country does better in what way? I would assume you mean life expectancy, which can be effected by numerous things such as higher obesity rates and different demographics. Statistics are more objective in some sense yes, but the information gained from them can and usually is just as subjective as anecdotes. Such as "Japan has a high life expectancy, Japan has a huge percentage of smokers, thus smoking isn't a leading effect on life expectancy", which if you care to do the research upon that topic you would understand this isn't true.



Threeravens said:


> I hope you were not going to argue that people might exploit the system to have gender reassignment surgery - an operation with no return - done to them.


Nooooo I would love to have the taxes I pay funding others to have their genitalia turned inside out


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## Threeravens (May 1, 2017)

Seefow said:


> Until the day you can change chromosomes and the entire body structure then yes you should accept that biologically you are what you are born as....


And until the day we can change the chromosomes in our entire body, we should just "accept" that some people have male-pattern baldness, for example? Or some people have a hormonal disturbance, do we not give them the hormone they need from pills? Or that a child has syndactyly? Do we not seperate the two conjoined fingers and say "oh, it is his _chromosomes_ which caused it. Even if we do the surgery, the chromosomes in the body will remain the same. So let him live with four fingers, thus is the almighty will of the Chromosomes!"

Have I watched and read about the surgery? Yes, I actually attended one as part of my rounds at the plastic surgery department. As a tip, I would recommend refraining from using words like "revolting" to describe surgical operations unless you want to sound like some middle-school student who is about to reach puberty. Colostomies are much more revolting, I assure you (and there are even more "revolting" surgeries out there), but they are the best option for some patients.

That example was there to show that surgeries are performed also in cases where it is the genetic makeup of the person that causes the problem, and the surgery circumvents the problem to provide a better quality of life for the patient - all in all without altering the genetic makeup.

_Nor did I say it was_
Actually, when you say things like "you are what you are" and in your previous post "revolting" and "have their genitalia turned inside out" you kind of do - or at least, it comes off as such. When you pass subjective judgment, you are making it about yourself.

_"Nooooo I would love to have the taxes I pay funding others to have their genitalia turned inside out"_
That is called a non-sequitur. It also shows that you are rather crude and boorish. Please do not dig yourself deeper.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Fumetsu said:


> Hm. My aunt ( previously uncle) suffered from depression and schotzophernia. After gender reassignment surgery she is a completley different persion-outgoing, bubbly, very happy.
> 
> To be honest, I don't really know where I'm going with this as I have no new information to add, I just found this interesting. I always assumed that his mental issues where because of his dismorphia, but you're saying that it could be the opposite?


I knew someone with BPD who thought they were female-to-male transgender. She (no longer identifying as male) read a story of someone else who thought they were trans -- MTF I believe -- and then realized that it's because they were sexually assaulted or something (don't remember details) as a child, and actually don't have dysphoria or anything. It is a way of distancing one's sexual identity from the trauma, I suppose. So she (person I knew) read this, and then also had her own kind of epiphany/identity crisis that she doesn't think she's actually trans.... switched to gender neutral pronouns/genderqueer for a few years. Had a few additional identity crises shifting back and forth among male, genderqueer, and female. Then finally settled on female about a year or two ago. 

In the midst of all this a mutual friend had already been familiarized with BPD first hand (doesn't have it, but knew others who did), and he told me that sexual/gender identity issues can actually be a symptom of BPD, especially as the disorder itself can result from childhood sexual abuse. 

I have also heard of people with dissociative identity disorder having alternate personalities of the opposite sex... so essentially when they are in the mode of that person (forget the official term for that), they are effectively "identifying" as the opposite sex.

So as far as personality disorders go, yes, I think it can happen the other way around. 

Depression and schizophrenia though? No, probably not.

Though for schizophrenia to be resolved after transition sounds unusual, as schizophrenia supposedly occurs during brain maturation (average age of onset is 24 or so), and so far, is incurable.

ETA: WRT borderline and gender identity, I never was able to find many references to that, but here is one: 



> Difficulties in cognition and sense of self can lead to frequent changes in long-term goals, career plans, jobs, gender identity, sexual orientation, friendships, and values....They may feel unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, bored, empty, and have little idea who they are.


http://www.psychologistanywhereanyt...gists/psychologist_borderline_personality.htm


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## Gojira (Dec 18, 2015)

Gender = social construct. If you were stranded on an island by yourself, there is no gender, only the biological reality of your sex.

I don't understand why the medical community, instead of treating a person's dysphoria over their biological sex, will instead perform medical procedures that are not only dangerous but can come with it a lifetime of complications and increased risks, not to mention infertility. There is no such thing as some spiritual innate femaleness or maleness. The social construct of what it means to be male or female varies across cultures and time, hence why gender is a social construct. You can wear boy clothes, get a short hair-cut, speak in a gruff voice, adopt the mannerisms typical of men, but at the end of the day, your biology dictates whether you are man or woman and society, and reality, will treat you accordingly. If you are intersex, your biology will also treat you accordingly with a host of health problems.

I am also sick of people saying transwomen are women or transmen are men. If transwomen are women, then can I, a woman, also be a transwoman? Can I identify as a transwoman despite being biologically female? They are the same right? Women and transwomen. No, because that's absurd. So does that mean transwomen are women, and women are ciswomen now? How ridiculous. There's nothing to be ashamed of by being trans. Being trans and calling yourself a transman or a transwoman is perfectly valid, no less or better than "man" or "woman".

While I have nothing but sympathy for those experiencing dysphoria (I experienced it myself in my teens where I wanted to cut off my breasts because the idea of being a woman was unbearable), hormone therapy and surgery should be the very last resort.


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## starscream430 (Jan 14, 2014)

Antipode said:


> The word has been hijacked long before now--which is why most people tended to use "sex" and "gender," since gender means so many different things to different people.


Well...there is an academic difference between sex and gender. Heck! Even sex gets complicated because you get intersex people. Sex is usually determined by genitalia while gender is determined by mindset. It seems to be a head-on between biology and psychology / sociology.


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## Gr8ful (Feb 18, 2014)

*Meet Joe Black*

How do trans ppl with children reconcile that confusion and trauma to the child? It just seems psychologically traumatizing for children to have to deal with. Does Bruce Jenner's children no longer have a father? To know someone as a man and your father for so long and then he up and turns into a woman (or was a woman all along) seems like something out of a suspense movie.


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## Cal (Sep 29, 2017)

cipherdecrypt said:


> Figured an intellectual NT temperament conversation about transgenderism would be interesting. I am female bodied but identified male. The terminology sounds a bit ridiculous, I know. Any questions are welcome, considering I don't get offended basically whatsoever (obviously), and being it may help considerably to answer my own.


 Could you answer a few of my questions? Just out of curiosity!:happy:


So as a trans person, do you get annoyed when people(specifically, young "edgy" teenagers) pretend to be transgender, as a way to play the victim card, or too feel special(whether that be pretending to be trans, or making up 500000000000 genders, and claiming that makes them trans)?

What struggles did you have to go through(I ask this out of boredom and curiosity)?

And, most importantly, do you like Blaire White? If you don't know her, she is this trans youtuber, who happens to be pretty smart(and gorgeous too). I love her videos!

Now, if you need me, I shall be arguing with a duck! I shall name him... Tee-Doe!


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## Exquisitor (Sep 15, 2015)

Are you concerned about the possibility that people who have very strong feelings of body dysphoria might be motivated by those strong feelings to seek medical interventions that might not actually be improvements in the long run, at this stage? I'm thinking more of male-to-female treatments, which are often very physically uncomfortable and which some post-surgery transwomen have come to regret. There are still plenty of disturbing studies that show depression and suicidal feelings don't necessarily improve in the years post-surgery, or actually deteriorate even more.

Although going by longitudinal studies it's hard to say how much that is only relevant to earlier attempts at sexual reassignment surgery, and I wouldn't know how much the process has advanced and how fast it is advancing. Still, if a mental condition makes someone very uncomfortable in their body, you want to make sure that their feelings don't lead them to accept unrealistic solutions, and if we don't actually have relevant longitudinal data, I would think that should be a call for more caution, if anything.

I don't have trouble believing that predatory surgeons would be just as happy to provide a well-paid service that they may be aware the patient could easily end up regretting, and our very defensive discourse about what it means to be trans and how we can talk about it respectfully (i.e. if you're skeptical about the still-emerging science, you're probably a bigot), could bury the negative evidence for ideological reasons. I'm uncomfortable about how this all coincides with the amount of young people who are being encouraged to identify as trans on the basis of apparently typical transitory pubescent body confusion.

I have as much human respect for individual transpeople and what they may be going through as anyone else, but I feel like some of the really important questions about what's going on are stifled by aggressively optimistic pro-LGBT advocates who are dominating the conversation.

EDIT: Ugh, should've read the timestamps. @Gr8ful be more careful about dragging up old threads where the original poster is probably long gone.


Also, to answer your question, how does _anyone_ deal with the potential trauma of a self-revelation to their family? What kind of answer are you expecting to this question? Your example is someone whose adult children seem fine with it. But yeah, the obvious conclusion to take from it is to sort out any core identity issues before deciding to create a family that that identity will become a part of. How people deal with the ramifications of failing to do that is up to the individual and their unique situation.


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## Gr8ful (Feb 18, 2014)

I’m not expecting a certain kind of answer. When I try to put myself in the situation, even as an adult child, I draw a blank as to how my parent(s) could do that to me/us. So I’m not expecting a certain kind of answer, just curious as to the point of view of someone who might know. What I surmise is that its THAT important to the individual to be the opposite sex. 

The example I used is the only one I know of and is the most prominent; and since it was celebrated and given such a huge platform I figure it’s like a window (glimpse) into all the others who would do that. I don’t think something that could traumatize children (adult or otherwise) like that is a cause for celebration and honor, but that’s my opinion…and off topic. 

You say his adult children seem fine with it, but I don’t think they really had a choice. I think most adult children would _seem_ fine with it on the outside, but I think it’s much harder to reconcile internally than what may be displayed externally. Especially as an adult child - after knowing him as a man and your father for so long. Do they no longer have a father? Just the thought of my father doing that to me, at any age, causes a tightness in my chest and a gloom over my mind/heart/spirit. I even consider the possibility that he wanted to and didn’t, and am grateful that he didn’t if that was the case. 

So I guess that is kind of my answer to your first questions of how does _anyone_ deal with it: You don’t put that on your children to have to deal with. You ride it out to the end; take it to the grave, so as to not cause pain/trauma to them for the remainder of their. So it must be THAT important to them to put that on their children. But again, jmo. And what are the odds that _all_ of his kids or _all_ of anyone’s kids who would do that will be fine with it, anyway?

I feel I’m pretty reasonable and level headed and can therefore understand an answer, opinion, or point of view, rather I agree or like it or not. I’m just curious to know how that works for the child and or what’s the train of thought behind it when it comes to the children. 

This older thread may not be the place to try to obtain an answer as you stated, but it's not that serious to me anyway either. I'm just curious. If I never get an answer or understanding of it, it's okay. There may not be an answer?


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