# Are you a Vegan?



## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Clyme said:


> And if you want to answer more, provide your personality type and answer why you are or aren't.


I'm not a vegetarian because I don't have an access to equally cheap/nutritious vegetarian alternatives to replace animal products.

Trying to chew and digest a huge pile of legumes/fibrous junk is not the same thing with simply eating a slice of meat or an egg for taking the crucial amount of amino acids and protein. I couldn't care less if you have genetics, time and money for taking the long road. That's my simple answer if you want to know why I never suffered from any nutrient deficiencies in my entire life.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

yet another intj said:


> I'm not a vegetarian because I don't have an access to equally cheap/nutritious vegetarian alternatives to replace animal products.
> 
> Trying to chew and digest a huge pile of legumes/fibrous junk is not the same thing with simply eating a slice of meat or an egg for taking the crucial amount of amino acids and protein. I couldn't care less if you have genetics, time and money for taking the long road. That's my simple answer if you want to know why I never suffered from any nutrient deficiencies in my entire life.


That's totally your prerogative and access to such alternatives definitely plays a role.

On the other hand though, you would still need legumes and "fibrous junk" to be healthy and as I'm sure you know, cannot subsist purely off of animal products. It doesn't take much to get your amino acids and proteins as a vegan though. A handful of nuts, a cup of beans, and a veggie burger are enough to meet your total daily protein requirements as a female, and it only takes a little more than that to meet it as a male. More importantly than that, you accomplish this often with a greater nutrient intake and certainly with no cholesterol and less unhealthy fats, significantly reducing your risk for heart disease, strokes, heart attacks, certain kinds of cancers, and premature death. Contrary to popular thought as well, planning a healthy vegan diet is not difficult and certainly no more difficult than planning a healthy animal-based diet, nor does it have to cost more. It certainly can cost more if you purchase pre-made vegan meals and so forth, but it's not difficult to be vegan on a budget.

Again, it's totally your prerogative though.


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## yet another intj (Feb 10, 2013)

Clyme said:


> On the other hand though, you would still need legumes and "fibrous junk" to be healthy and as I'm sure you know, cannot subsist purely off of animal products.


Breaking news! Non-vegeterian people are also eating them since ages. Vegetarians are the ones who ignore something they still need, the complementary value of animal products.



Clyme said:


> It doesn't take much to get your amino acids and proteins as a vegan though. A handful of nuts, a cup of beans, and a veggie burger are enough to meet your total daily protein requirements as a female, and it only takes a little more than that to meet it as a male.


Once again, be my guest "if it's somehow working for you". The thing is, I can find so many contradicting studies about how a vegetarian diet is unhealthier than a balanced one if you are limited with the same amount of time and money. Simply reading the nutrition facts from packaging to keep up with the numbers means nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioavailability

That's why you have to consume the several times of theoretical amount to practically satisfy your nutritional needs with vegetarian alternatives. That's also how 10 grams of whey could be better than 100 grams of red meat in some situations. The efficiency of digestion is crucial. So, swallowing an alternative just because it supposed to contain this or that grams of protein and expecting it to work like another one is ridiculous. I'm not going to pay more to poop the half of my meal after I fail to digest it.



Clyme said:


> More importantly than that, you accomplish this often with a greater nutrient intake and certainly with no cholesterol and less unhealthy fats, significantly reducing your risk for heart disease, strokes, heart attacks, certain kinds of cancers, and premature death.


As always, moderation is the key. Nothing alone can make you cancer or prevent it. There are people who smoked until their 90's and the ones who born with it. We don't smoke to "reduce the risk", not eliminate the possibility. Our bodies are evolved to tolerate, even benefit from reasonable amount of animal fat. Your entire endocrine metabolism is made of cholesterol. Demonizing cholesterol is the most ridiculous scientific hype and it's nothing but blaming the effect before explaining the cause. Needless to say that I can consume animal products and also outlive you if I take care of my cardiovascular health with a balanced diet and exercise. If you didn't notice yet, I'm not supporting a carnivorous diet as a better alternative because it's unhealthy just like the vegetarian one.



Clyme said:


> Contrary to popular thought as well, planning a healthy vegan diet is not difficult and certainly no more difficult than planning a healthy animal-based diet, nor does it have to cost more. It certainly can cost more if you purchase pre-made vegan meals and so forth, but it's not difficult to be vegan on a budget.


After all, it's a discipline of consumerism with specialty products. Forgive me because I'm not going to follow a subculture movement with ideological justification, self-proclaimed gurus and pretentious cookbooks to relieve the inferiority complex for easing my canine guilt.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

Pardon me, but your tone seems aggressive, suggesting that you've somehow taken offense by what I've said. My only intentions were to initiate a conversation for the purposes of promoting clarity about an issue which is important to me.

Before I get into my response, you've used the word "vegetarian" and its extensions to address my comments. I take up the vegan position, not the vegetarian one.



yet another intj said:


> Breaking news! Non-vegeterian people are also eating them since ages. Vegetarians are the ones who ignore something they still need, the complementary value of animal products.


You seem to have misunderstood what I've said. Your prior comment had a tone of condemnation for legumes and "fibrous junk" and favored eating animal alternatives to those things. I merely stated that regardless of what your diet is, you still need these things to have a healthy diet. Also, your assertion that animal products are necessary for nutrition is false. Humans do not require any nutrients from animal products and well-planned vegan diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate (American Dietetic Association, 2009).




> Once again, be my guest "if it's somehow working for you". The thing is, I can find so many contradicting studies about how a vegetarian diet is unhealthier than a balanced one if you are limited with the same amount of time and money. Simply reading the nutrition facts from packaging to keep up with the numbers means nothing.


Clearly the key-word here is "balance." It's not impossible to be healthy when consuming animal products nor is it impossible to be healthy when consuming a diet free of animal products. The important thing to note is that the idea that veganism cannot provide individuals with the nutrients they need is simply a myth. Both The Dietitians of Canada and The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition have concluded that well-planned vegan diets provide all the nutrients a person needs.



> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioavailability
> 
> That's why you have to consume the several times of theoretical amount to practically satisfy your nutritional needs with vegetarian alternatives. That's also how 10 grams of whey could be better than 100 grams of red meat in some situations. The efficiency of digestion is crucial. So, swallowing an alternative just because it supposed to contain this or that grams of protein and expecting it to work like another one is ridiculous. I'm not going to pay more to poop the half of my meal after I fail to digest it.


That's actually only the case with iron and protein. Iron in plant-based foods is not as easily absorbed as iron in animal-based foods, but many mistakenly believe that vegan diets are therefor iron-deficient. What you discuss about having to eat more to satisfy nutritional needs is actually false. The reverse is true in terms of calories. Plant-based foods that are high in iron often give you more calories per every 100 grams of food than its animal alternatives. This means that you are more likely to to acquire more iron in your diet with less calories. In addition to that, Vitamin C increases the ability of your body to absorb iron, and many iron-rich plant-based foods are also high in Vitamin C (Reed Mangels, 2013). As for protein, our body certainly does absorb animal proteins better than plant proteins, but does that mean they're better for us? It depends. Red meats and processed meats, while delivering lots of readily digestible proteins, are extremely high in saturated fats and sodium. While there is a healthy limit to these, saturated fat has not essential to us and is actually high in low-density lipoproteins which drive up blood cholesterol and increase the likelihood of cardiovascular diseases (Harvard Medical Publications, 2015) (American Heart Association, 2015). Cutting out red meats and processed meats and replacing them with leans meats and certain kinds of fish certainly reduces the risk for many kinds of diseases. It's been found, however, that diets that are high in vegetable sources of protein and fats reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and improve weight control and weight loss (Harvard School of Public Health). Additionally, diets which are incredibly high in protein are linked with greater instances of osteoporosis and premature death. 



> As always, moderation is the key. Nothing alone can make you cancer or prevent it. There are people who smoked until their 90's and the ones who born with it. We don't smoke to "reduce the risk", not eliminate the possibility. Our bodies are evolved to tolerate, even benefit from reasonable amount of animal fat. Your entire endocrine metabolism is made of cholesterol. Demonizing cholesterol is the most ridiculous scientific hype and it's nothing but blaming the effect before explaining the cause. Needless to say that I can consume animal products and also outlive you if I take care of my cardiovascular health with a balanced diet and exercise. If you didn't notice yet, I'm not supporting a carnivorous diet as a better alternative because it's unhealthy just like the vegetarian one.


Yes, moderation is important. While it's true that harmful diseases and other afflictions are usually the result of multiple factors, this does not mean that the risks should be ignored. As the studies I've cited previously have indicated, animal products are higher in sodium and saturated fats which are harmful to our system. With some nutrients, such as iron as an example, they contain significantly less nutritional value for every 100 calories, making it far easier to over-consume calories with less nutritional gain. I won't repeat all of the things I've mentioned before, but the further away from red meats you are and the closer to plant-based sources of nutrients you get, the healthier you generally are. I'll address the points you've raised here though, namely that we have evolved to benefit from animal fats and that the harms of cholesterol is "scientific hype."

As I've pointed out before, our ability to absorb certain nutrients (like protein and iron) from animals is due to their similarity in structure to our bodily nutrients. We synthesize plant proteins into proteins that our body can use. Essentially, the nutrients that we acquire from animals are just recycled nutrients. But, are we actually evolved to digest animal products, or is our ability to more easily absorb certain nutrients purely a consequence of having similar bodily systems? An analysis of the anatomy of our jaws and the jaws, conducted by Mark Teaford and Peter Ungar, suggests that we've evolved primarily to eat plant-based diets but that the presence of some late-developed bone features (such as incisors) for the purposes of breaking down harder foods (like meats) are there due to food scarcity and climactic changes. Essentially, the groundwork was already laid for our diets, but having the ability to consume meat later on allowed us to survive long enough to pass on genes. Milton R. Mills has taken this further and performed comparative analysis between ourselves, omnivores, carnivores, and herbivores. I encourage you to read the analysis here. In any case, without providing a long-winded summary, the conclusion of the study found that the anatomy of our facial muscles, jaws, teeth, salivia, intestines, colon, liver, and more demonstrated that our structures are consistent with herbivore structures and not with the structures of carnivores or omnivores. Contrary to popular culture, we haven't evolved to digest animal products.

Before I begin my discussion on cholesterol, I would like to say that at no point was I attempted to demonize cholesterol in and of itself. The reason why not ingesting cholesterol is important is because our body already produces all the cholesterol we need (American Heart Association, 2014). So, there's absolutely no reason to ingest cholesterol from animal products. The problem comes in when we ingest too much cholesterol, and this is where we run into problems with animal products. Cholesterol comes in different forms of course, such as high-density lipoproteins and low-density lipoproteins. Low-density lipoproteins are the sorts of fats that build-up plaque in our heart and our arteries, increasing the risk for cardiovascular disease, strokes, and so forth. High-density lipoproteins are fats that are healthy for us and they actually remove this sort of plaque build-up from low-density lipoproteins (American Heart Association, 2015). Dairy products and most forms of meat, including red meats, processed meats, poultry, most fish, and shellfish contain higher proportions of low-density lipoproteins. There are exceptions to this, such as salmon, which contain less low-density lipoproteins and higher amounts of high-density lipoproteins (Crystal Welch, 2015). So yes, we can still be healthy and ingest certain kinds of meats on a limited basis, but the cholesterol in most of them does little to contribute to our wellness and poses significant risks instead.

Also, you've stated that a balanced diet is required for health, implying that a balanced diet means one that includes both animal and plant-based products. As I've refuted previously, animal products are not required for health and nutrition.



> After all, it's a discipline of consumerism with specialty products. Forgive me because I'm not going to follow a subculture movement with ideological justification, self-proclaimed gurus and pretentious cookbooks to relieve the inferiority complex for easing my canine guilt.


You can certainly attempt to minimize the significance of veganism by labeling it as a "subculture movement" and using phases like "self-proclaimed gurus" and "pretentious cookbooks," but there are significant harmful consequences of the animal industry on our economy, environment, and health. You're right in that I cannot force you to care about the ethics of harming other conscious creatures, but this industry has significant harmful consequences on the things I've mentioned. While I've only talked about health in this post, there are a number of resources out there which detail the problems of the industry in the areas I've mentioned. And lastly, there is no canine guilt. We evolved to eat plants, not animals, and not both.


Sources:

Craig W.J., Mangels A.R., (2009), _Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets._ Berrien Springs, MI, USA. Andrews University.

Dietitians of Canada, (2014), _Healthy Eating Guidelines for Vegans_. Retrieved from Dietitians of Canada - Eating Guidelines for Vegans.

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, (2009), _Health effects of vegan diets_. Berrien Springs, MI, USA. Andrews University.

Mangels R., Wasserman D., (2013), _Simply Vegan_. Vegetarian Resource Group

Harvard Health Publications, (2015), _The truth about fats: the good, the bad, and the in-between. _Retrieved from The truth about fats: the good, the bad, and the in-between - Harvard Health.

American Heart Association, (2015), _Saturated Fats_. Retrieved from Saturated Fats.

Harvard School of Public Health, (Unknown Date), _Protein_. Retrieved from Protein | The Nutrition Source | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Teaford M.F., Ungar P.S., (2000), _Diet and the evolution of the earliest human ancestors_. The National Academy of Sciences.

Mills M.R., (2009), _The Comparative Anatomy of Eating_. Retrieved from The Comparative Anatomy of Eating - Vegsource.com.

American Heart Association, (2014), _About Cholesterol_. Retrieved from About Cholesterol.

American Heart Association, (2015), _Good vs. Bad Cholesterol_. Retrieved from Good vs. Bad Cholesterol.

Welch C., (2015), _Foods Containing LDL Cholesterol_. Retrieved from Foods Containing LDL Cholesterol |.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Clyme said:


> My primary concern is based upon ethics and environmentalism. While vegetarianism is certainly better than eating a meat-based diet, it's still hard on the environment and unethical (in most cases). So, my concern was primarily with the vegan or non-vegan divide with those considerations in mind rather than taking a survey of people's diet decisions.


How is being a vegetarian unethical? Are the specific foods that they eat that has an effect on the environment? Could one be an ethical vegetarian?


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

I respect your right not to eat meat. Why won't you respect my right not to eat fake meat?


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> How is being a vegetarian unethical? Are the specific foods that they eat that has an effect on the environment? Could one be an ethical vegetarian?


Ethics, for me, is about the well-being and suffering of conscious creatures. The consumption of animal products, such as cheese, milk, eggs, and so forth, still involve the torture, rape, and murder of animals. Now, that's not always the case, as you could, like some people in this thread, acquire your eggs from local farms where the animals are treated properly and so forth. So, in that sense, it could be ethical. Predominantly though, most people who are vegetarians are purchasing animal products from grocery stores. The harvesting of those animal products considerably harms the animal and it also supports an incredibly harmful industry. As for environmentalism, vegetarianism is certainly better on the environment than meat-eating is, but we still run into the sustainability problems of factory farming, namely with the feeding of livestock, the pollution factory farming produces, the water usage, the land-space it takes up, and so forth. Again, it's better than meat-eating, but still hard on the environment.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I respect your right not to eat meat. Why won't you respect my right not to eat fake meat?


I appreciate that. I do respect your right not to eat fake meat. I don't respect anything that involves unnecessary harm to conscious creatures though. That's just an ethical standard that I, personally, cannot forfeit. Additionally, factory farming is tremendously harmful for the environment and so on-top of it being unethical, I recognize that it's an unsustainable industry that needs to be removed for the sake of our world and future generations.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Clyme said:


> Ethics, for me, is about the well-being and suffering of conscious creatures. The consumption of animal products, such as cheese, milk, eggs, and so forth, still involve the torture, rape, and murder of animals. Now, that's not always the case, as you could, like some people in this thread, acquire your eggs from local farms where the animals are treated properly and so forth. So, in that sense, it could be ethical. Predominantly though, most people who are vegetarians are purchasing animal products from grocery stores. The harvesting of those animal products considerably harms the animal and it also supports an incredibly harmful industry. As for environmentalism, vegetarianism is certainly better on the environment than meat-eating is, but we still run into the sustainability problems of factory farming, namely with the feeding of livestock, the pollution factory farming produces, the water usage, the land-space it takes up, and so forth. Again, it's better than meat-eating, but still hard on the environment.


Ok, this is good to know. It makes sense too actually - those who are cruel to animals to get their meat will be cruel to them to get other resources as well.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Ok, this is good to know. It makes sense too actually - those who are cruel to animals to get their meat will be cruel to them to get other resources as well.


Yeah, it's exactly that. Animals used for other resources such as eggs or dairy are also eventually slaughtered anyway if they don't die in the process. I was a vegetarian for about two years before discovering this. Although this article does not solely focus on non-meat animal products, it does give an overview of the sorts of things that occur within the factory farming systems that do.

What made you desire to go vegetarian anyway?


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Clyme said:


> Yeah, it's exactly that. Animals used for other resources such as eggs or dairy are also eventually slaughtered anyway if they don't die in the process. I was a vegetarian for about two years before discovering this. Although this article does not solely focus on non-meat animal products, it does give an overview of the sorts of things that occur within the factory farming systems that do.
> 
> What made you desire to go vegetarian anyway?


Thank you for that information!

The main reason for me is to avoid contributing to animal cruelty as much as possible, but an added bonus is I think a meat-free diet would be a healthier one. Good for the animals, good for me. 

What about honey tho? As I hear vegans don't eat honey either (correct me if I'm mistaken on this one). I find it an ideal alternative to sugar.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Thank you for that information!
> 
> The main reason for me is to avoid contributing to animal cruelty as much as possible, but an added bonus is I think a meat-free diet would be a healthier one. Good for the animals, good for me.
> 
> What about honey tho? As I hear vegans don't eat honey either (correct me if I'm mistaken on this one). I find it an ideal alternative to sugar.


You're very welcome.

Ah, so I see. Yes, it's wonderful that it happens to work out that way.

Honey is unethical as well. This article here should give you a pretty good overview of that.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Clyme said:


> You're very welcome.
> 
> Ah, so I see. Yes, it's wonderful that it happens to work out that way.
> 
> Honey is unethical as well. This article here should give you a pretty good overview of that.


With regards to bees, I'm glad to see that many people are taking seriously the lives of these living creatures. On the article: Bee keepers could be doing this form of farming without causing the bees any pain, stress or death couldn't they? Would that make a difference? Also, the bee keepers don't have to take all the honey, but only what they need, so in effect that would be sharing with the bees. This could be seen as a two way relationship as well - the bee keeper offers the bees a safe, roomy, dry place to build their homes and lives in, providing also protection. The bee keepers remove some honey when needed, but do so in a way that doesn't stress the bees out, not harms them in any way. Would that be fair and ethical do you think? This seems distinct to me from how, for example, chickens are farmed (I never eat chicken at all, and have never bought caged eggs ever). Ideally one would get honey from a source they know treats the bees well too.


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## Turlowe (Aug 4, 2014)

Happily omnivorous INFP.


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## overtherainbow (Oct 16, 2015)

Yes ENFP


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> With regards to bees, I'm glad to see that many people are taking seriously the lives of these living creatures. On the article: Bee keepers could be doing this form of farming without causing the bees any pain, stress or death couldn't they? Would that make a difference? Also, the bee keepers don't have to take all the honey, but only what they need, so in effect that would be sharing with the bees. This could be seen as a two way relationship as well - the bee keeper offers the bees a safe, roomy, dry place to build their homes and lives in, providing also protection. The bee keepers remove some honey when needed, but do so in a way that doesn't stress the bees out, not harms them in any way. Would that be fair and ethical do you think? This seems distinct to me from how, for example, chickens are farmed (I never eat chicken at all, and have never bought caged eggs ever). Ideally one would get honey from a source they know treats the bees well too.


Admittedly, I haven't researched much into the methods of honey harvesting that aren't in practice in honey-farms. If bee keepers were not causing pain, stress, or death to these bees, than that would certainly be more ethical than the practices that do cause that. Is it ethical though? I'm not sure. The honey they produce is the result of their hard-work, and so removing any amount would be stealing from them. Even if we were to provide them with some kind of habitation, I'm not sure what right we have to impose any kind of a trade. We'd think of it as a mutual benefit, but essentially we're controlling the terms of the contract and as far as I'm aware, we don't have any way to know their will. Again though, I'm not sure. Once I discovered the way that honey was obtained, I cut it out of my diet and didn't look further into the issue. This is something that I'd have to think more about because I'm honestly not sure right away. Those are my preliminary thoughts though.

As a side-comment, if you're in the United States, I would encourage you to refrain from buying "free range" eggs or whatever the label is. Essentially, due to American laws, they do not differ greatly from "caged eggs." It's a marketing scheme developed by the industry and does nothing to guarantee the welfare of these chickens. Here's an article on the misleading use of such labels. I've not researched much into the laws in other countries regarding this labeling system, but I do not expect it to be that different. Essentially, regardless of what the label is, it still involves the torture and rape of animals that are subject to horrible conditions. Labels like that are there to make us feel better about purchasing unethical products.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

I was actually raised a vegan by my mother. I then became a vegetarian when I was about 12. Then I went about half a year as a vegan of my own decision when I was 16 but gave up for some reason because I guess I just wanted to eat cheese and thought oh well at least being a vegetarian is a step in the right direction and it is still way better than actually eating meat. Then when I was 19 I tried fish and decided to become a somewhat pescatarian because I thought it would be healthy to eat fish (even though I don't think it is that healthy now. There are alternatives for omega 3). Then when I was 24 I'm really ashamed to say that I tried chicken and beef a couple of times  I don't really know why. I was literally going through a mental breakdown at that point. This sounds so stupid (because it is) but I think subconsciously I was trying to separate myself from my mother because we had fallen out as she had badly betrayed me and I had gone through a traumatic experience because of her (which I don't want to talk about right now). I think it's because everyone around me at that point was a meat eater (I mean my friends) so I just decided to start trying meat maybe to fit in or something, I don't know. I made a lot of stupid decisions around that time. It's so stupid because I knew for myself that eating meat is morally wrong and it wasn't like I was just following my mother anyway or anything. I was a grown woman at this point with my own beliefs and values. But for some reason I went against my own values and beliefs. And now two years later I feel really guilty about trying meat. It's like I never doubted that it was wrong. I was just in some catatonic state for over a year where I guess I would just do bad things for some reason and not care. But I did care of course and now just regret it so much and feel really bad. So now I am of course a vegetarian and am recently decided to be a vegan and also not buy anymore leather shoes and also find out which cosmetic companies test on animals so I can avoid them.

I'm an INTP.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

lmao! accidently answered yes XD

hell no, ENFP meat lover for LIFE!


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## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

I couldn't last a week as a vegetarian let alone vegan. ENFP


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## NewYorkEagle (Apr 12, 2015)

I'm not really a vegan, since I love eating meat a lot. Also, I'm an ENFJ.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Clyme said:


> Admittedly, I haven't researched much into the methods of honey harvesting that aren't in practice in honey-farms. If bee keepers were not causing pain, stress, or death to these bees, than that would certainly be more ethical than the practices that do cause that. Is it ethical though? I'm not sure. The honey they produce is the result of their hard-work, and so removing any amount would be stealing from them. Even if we were to provide them with some kind of habitation, I'm not sure what right we have to impose any kind of a trade. We'd think of it as a mutual benefit, but essentially we're controlling the terms of the contract and as far as I'm aware, we don't have any way to know their will. Again though, I'm not sure. Once I discovered the way that honey was obtained, I cut it out of my diet and didn't look further into the issue. This is something that I'd have to think more about because I'm honestly not sure right away. Those are my preliminary thoughts though.
> 
> As a side-comment, if you're in the United States, I would encourage you to refrain from buying "free range" eggs or whatever the label is. Essentially, due to American laws, they do not differ greatly from "caged eggs." It's a marketing scheme developed by the industry and does nothing to guarantee the welfare of these chickens. Here's an article on the misleading use of such labels. I've not researched much into the laws in other countries regarding this labeling system, but I do not expect it to be that different. Essentially, regardless of what the label is, it still involves the torture and rape of animals that are subject to horrible conditions. Labels like that are there to make us feel better about purchasing unethical products.


Ok, that is fair enuf. Personally, provided the bees are being properly looked after and not mistreated at all, and only a portion of the honey is taken, I'm ok with eating honey. The bee keeper should be working hard to look after the bees too, which would make for an equivalent exchange then, in my opinion of course.

Do you know what it's like for free ranged chickens in Australia? I don't know all of the cases, but I have seen some chicken farms and seen that the chickens have a humongous area to live in...Hopefully all of them are like that, but I doubt it. I always carefully examine the information on the packaging to see how much area they have - they usually say that now. Still, whenever I go shopping for eggs, I see people lining up for the caged eggs, and few others buying the free ranged eggs at all..
I've even tried explaining that to people as they bought them, but they laughed at me..

At least as individuals we can try.


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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

He's a Superhero! said:


> Ok, that is fair enuf. Personally, provided the bees are being properly looked after and not mistreated at all, and only a portion of the honey is taken, I'm ok with eating honey. The bee keeper should be working hard to look after the bees too, which would make for an equivalent exchange then, in my opinion of course.


That's fair. It's certainly better than getting honey from bee-farms. I still don't know if it's ethical of us to take something that they put effort towards and that benefits them. I suppose the real question here to clarify the issue would be whether leaving the honey would benefit them. That is, does honey at any point become unusable or unable to benefit the hive? If it does, then taking it would merely be using a product otherwise useless to the bees. If it doesn't become unusable to them or they can still benefit from it, then the reverse of this is that the honey we're taking is of detriment to them. That's pretty much what would make the difference for me.



> Do you know what it's like for free ranged chickens in Australia? I don't know all of the cases, but I have seen some chicken farms and seen that the chickens have a humongous area to live in...Hopefully all of them are like that, but I doubt it. I always carefully examine the information on the packaging to see how much area they have - they usually say that now. Still, whenever I go shopping for eggs, I see people lining up for the caged eggs, and few others buying the free ranged eggs at all..
> I've even tried explaining that to people as they bought them, but they laughed at me..


I don't, sorry. I wouldn't expect it to be much different though. Animal food industries are often closely connected to the government and so more likely than not, information will be skewed because it's very profitable. Not just that, but animal welfare is usually of very little concern to the public, and it's certainly of no concern to those that are murdering them. So, with that in mind, I don't expect it to be that different. Still, that's something you'd have to research yourself. I wouldn't purchase eggs until researching that though. Also, it's unfortunate but a lot of people have that attitude.



> At least as individuals we can try.


I agree with you completely. I really respect your values here.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

i like eating meat


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## cielo_nlu (Feb 7, 2014)

I wish I was a vegan :sad:

I grew up in a family and culture of meat-eaters, but now after seeing documentaries over the treatment of animals and workers, the huge issues involving labor trafficking, and the overall corruption involved in mass meat production and its contribution to disease - I really, genuinely want to stop altogether. 

So much time has gone by between learning all of that information that I'll forget, then it will all come rushing back at the worst (or best?) of times, like right before dinner, and if I can't verify that it's organic, free range, cruelty/corruption-free etc., I either can't eat or stew in guilt. Would rather just not, you know? 

So any vegans on here, please feel free to send on any helpful forums, infographs, and/or information!


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## Tsubaki (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm a pescetarian but I don't think that I could be vegan.

I also wouldn't be a vegetarian or pescetarian because of the poor animals, the pollution or whatever. I just love fish and if I don't eat meat, I can eat more fish, duh.


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## SilverFlames (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm an ENFP and I'm not a vegan because it would be really difficult to go to restaurants if I couldn't eat animal products. However, as a New Years Resolution I'm going to try going pescitarian (no meat except for seafood) for a while. Depending on how that goes I might try flip-flopping between omnivorous (can't think of a better word so early in the morning) and pescitarian every month or so for the health benefits. For a permanent change, though, I'm hoping to go out of my way to avoid factory farmed meat, because the ways that such animals are raised are so sickening.


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## gengar_ (Dec 19, 2015)

This thread got me thinking.. so before posting I researched the counter argument to my logical response. 

9 Reasons Your Canine Teeth Don’t Make You a Meat-Eater - See more at: freefromharm.org/photo-galleries/9-reasons-your-canine-teeth-dont-make-you-a-meat-eater/#sthash.dzZG0mqT.dpuf

That was an eye opener.


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## Bitterself (Mar 14, 2015)

When they give me proof that animals have consciousness, I'll become one.


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## Finntheirish (Jun 4, 2012)

I am an INFJ and I am Vegan. I have been for almost two years. When asked why my only real reason is it just feels right. That is how I explain it to everybody, and my own justification. For me it is just the right thing to do. I am not a Vegan activist, though if asked about it I will express my opinion and make it known that I would prefer the world to be Vegan.


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## xGx (Aug 3, 2011)

ISTJ vegan here. 6 years already! :carrot:

It's very simple for me: As a being with a nervous system, I know what pain and suffer is, so through that I relate to the rest of animals, and so I don't want them to feel pain or suffer.


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## Delicious Speculation (May 17, 2015)

INTJ, and no. I knit with wool yarn, and I wear leather boots. And, on rare occasion, I like cheese pizza. Not a vegan. 

I AM a vegetarian who eats some eggs, and I prefer to get those eggs from so-called ethical sources (try scrambled eggs made with eggs from a stand at your local farmers' market. Far superior to grocery store eggs). I don't eat them very often. I have strong views on animal agriculture/factory farming and its impact on the environment. Plus, I just feel better physically without meat. Some people thrive on low carb, I happen to do better on a plant-based diet.

Will I ever go vegan? Maybe.


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## katemess (Oct 21, 2015)

ENTP.

I'm not a vegan, because it's too high maintenance a lifestyle for me. I like being able to eat whatever I want, whenever I want, and I'm a person of convenience. I like what takes little effort but what will still fill me up. 

Also, vegans always seem to have to take a fuck ton of vitamins and supplements in order to remain healthy. Well, I haven't had so much as a cold in over 3 years and I'm not about to start shoveling supplements in just so that I can go vegan, be hungry and MAYBE continue being healthy.


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## karethys (Dec 4, 2015)

ISFP here. Not a vegan. I avoid anything from factory farms, grain fed cows, etc, but have no problem with meat from good local farms and take into consideration both the nutritional quality and the conditions for the animals/workers. I avoid dairy.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

cielo_nlu said:


> I can't verify that it's organic,


There's no package marking where you live? What does organic food have to do with veganism, anyway?



> cruelty/corruption-free etc.,


It's rather easy to tell whether or not products are cruelty-free. If it contains or is produced with anything _taken_ from an animal (including life, limb, labor, and freedom), cruelty was involved. If you can't figure out how it was produced or don't want to bother figuring it out, don't buy it. This also happens to be an excellent way to keep junk out of one's diet.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

i'm a vagitarian


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## GoosePeelings (Nov 10, 2013)

Nah.


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## SimplyRivers (Sep 5, 2015)

INTP here, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian due to the fact that nobody has convinced me otherwise. Meat has proteins and nutrients you can't obtain from plants. Though, you need them as well; a balance has always seemed right to me.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

ENTP and not vegan. My favorite food groups are meat and dairy. I've actually considered doing an anti-vegan diet and only eating animal products to see if I can lose weight.


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## LightTree (Dec 19, 2015)

ISTJ, not a vegan, but i've moved more closely toward that direction. I no longer eat meat every meal or every day necessarily, and I haven't eaten beef since July or so. It's so much easier than I ever thought it would be. Environmental concerns are my primary motivation, but health health also motivates me to a lesser extent.


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## lmpeiris (Dec 25, 2015)

INFP, and not vegan .. yeah i know, it's not usual.
*I do not strictly need a diet with meat though; i can survive months on vegan diet without complaints (have done so).

If I turn vegan, following would be the reasons in order:*

1) Meat in food requires high resource (water, energy, land etc..) consumption to make. It is one of primary reasons for environmental degradation.

2) My religion (*Therovada Buddhism*) preaches to avoid / reduce harming other living things, it's one of the basic five disciplinary, *self enforced* guidelines in the religion (Therovada do not have rules, but self enforced guidelines). 

3) It requires bad treatment of animals.

4) In our country, it's very less expensive to rely only on vegetables.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

niss said:


> Never would be a vegan. All the vegans I know IRL have been too close to the cray-cray line for my taste.


How are the people who are vegan related to a personal dietary choice that you could choose to have? I get it that many vegans are very unpleasant in their way of relaying a good message, but saying you wouldn't ever be a vegan because of some crazy people is an excuse not to think about the topic at all.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

Fi and Si users are more likely to be vegans.


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Would there be a term for a vegan that eats honey? That probably wouldn't be considered vegan tho technically.

Full vegetarian is my personal goal (I'm still currently semi-vegetarian), but I like the ethics of vegans as I really care about animal welfare. On the question I asked, I don't see myself stopping with honey if I was to become more vegan, however I think it's important to take an interest in the condition that the bees live in and how they are treated by their keepers...One keeper would really care for their bees, while another would only care about the money they are making.
I also buy "free ranged" milk now, which I didn't know about before. There should really be more awareness about free ranged milk, as there is with free ranged eggs (even tho there are still heaps of caged eggs on the shelves..)...It's such a basic concept, yet surprisingly little attention is given to it.

Awareness really is significant.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> How are the people who are vegan related to a personal dietary choice that you could choose to have? I get it that many vegans are very unpleasant in their way of relaying a good message, but saying you wouldn't ever be a vegan because of some crazy people is an excuse not to think about the topic at all.


Is this a debate thread? A general question was asked and I gave my opinion, which apparently does not sit well with you, and now you want to take me to task and accuse me of not thinking about the issue? Really?

Are you trying to convince me with your little barbs? Is that supposed to make me aware of how right your position must be?

What do you know about the research and consideration I've given to the topic? Not assume, but really know? Next to nothing?

There are many reasons that I would choose not to be a vegan, but I've only listed one. Do I have to justify my decision in your eyes? Or am I allowed to have my own opinion on the matter, without being forced to justify it to you?

FYI, IME, IRL, vegans tend to be focused on a very narrow set of conditions, through which they filter their decisions about people. They have been some of the most closed to understanding the opinions of others that I have encountered. Based on my experience with a dozen or so vegans, I'll pass. Veganism is not some morally superior position from which the enlightened ones can pass judgment on the unwashed masses. 

I veiw veganism in an unfavorable light. Even after reading about it. A lot. This is just one of the reasons.

Now, go and have a nice day.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

niss said:


> Is this a debate thread? A general question was asked and I gave my opinion, which apparently does not sit well with you, and now you want to take me to task and accuse me of not thinking about the issue? Really?
> 
> Are you trying to convince me with your little barbs? Is that supposed to make me aware of how right your position must be?
> 
> ...


I found it strange that of all the arguments you could have made about not going vegan, you choose the one is really not about the dietary choice at all, but about some obnoxious people who are vegan, as if becoming vegan would make you one of them.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> I found it strange that of all the arguments you could have made about not going vegan, you choose the one is really not about the dietary choice at all, but about some obnoxious people who are vegan, as if becoming vegan would make you one of them.


I find it strange that you seem to think that you are the appointed one who decides the validity of random people posting their opinions in this thread. That you fail to see the reasoning behind my choice of thought to share does not negate my reasons or opinion. Personally, I can't see that it is your concern.


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## Cbyermen (Nov 28, 2014)

I'm an INFP. I'm not a vegan, but there's nothing wrong with being one. I don't like how there's so many stereotypes about vegans, but I could personally never be one because I love bacon too much. Veganism is also so so so expensive, and as the youngest child in my family, I have no control over the groceries. I could be a vegetarian someday, though. Would just have to give up bacon lol.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I try not to have more than two servings of dairy/eggs per day. I tried being vegan a few weeks ago but I was concerned about the long-term health effects. I support reducing animal product consumption for ethical and environmental reasons.

I only eat the most ethical dairy/egg options available in the store. I am aware they still are unethical. But I see it as a "necessary evil."

We all need to do our part to reduce our carbon and resource footprint if we want to build a more sustainable society that will survive through the next century. Going vegetarian or vegan is the most effective thing the average person can do for the environment.

If you don't think you could give up meat entirely, just work on reducing your meat consumption. Try "Meatless Mondays," or try only eating meat for one meal per day. Try focusing on quality over quantity and buying better-tasting organic ethical meat rather than factory farmed meat. Also, try some vegan meat alternatives. Nowadays there are some great ones out there, such as Gardein and Beyond Meat, which are very similar-tasting to meat.

Try replacing "non-essential" dairy and egg products. For example, replace butter with Earth Balance. Replace milk with coconut milk or some other vegan "milk." If there's a vegan bakery or a Whole Foods in your area, try out some vegan baked goods.



Eluid Sade said:


> When they give me proof that animals have consciousness, I'll become one.


It's been well supported by science that many animals do. Just go to a farm and spend an hour watching the animals. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, and even more intelligent than chimps by some measures.



SimplyRivers said:


> INTP here, I'm not a vegan or vegetarian due to the fact that nobody has convinced me otherwise. Meat has proteins and nutrients you can't obtain from plants. Though, you need them as well; a balance has always seemed right to me.


Umm...no it doesn't? Meat is a complete protein (contains all the essential amino acids) and so are many other proteins, such as tofu, various types of nuts and seeds, chickpeas, quinoa, and black beans. If you're vegetarian, dairy and eggs are complete proteins as well, and have B12.



Apple Pine said:


> No. Why would you be a vegan?
> 
> We can learn from animals. None of them are 100% vegan.


Is this a joke?



niss said:


> Is this a debate thread? A general question was asked and I gave my opinion, which apparently does not sit well with you, and now you want to take me to task and accuse me of not thinking about the issue? Really?
> 
> Are you trying to convince me with your little barbs? Is that supposed to make me aware of how right your position must be?
> 
> ...


Wow, if anything YOU are the one who's getting ridiculously defensive here over nothing. Hmm I wonder what that's all about.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

dragthewaters said:


> Is this a joke?


Uhm. No.

I am not saying being vegan is wrong, I am just asking why.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

Apple Pine said:


> Uhm. No.
> 
> I am not saying being vegan is wrong, I am just asking why.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_herbivorous_animals <-- your argument is invalid

Honestly I'm not convinced veganism is healthy. Simply because it's a relatively new phenomenon, and not very much research has been done on it. I'm not saying it's necessarily unhealthy, I'm just saying I'm not willing to risk it personally.

However, there have been many entirely vegetarian cultures for thousands of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism

Today 70% of vegetarians live in India. About 40% of India's population is vegetarian (and in India, that means lacto-vegetarian). If they can do it without access to all the specialty vegetarian foods that we have, then we can do it also.

Anyway, as for why someone would choose to be vegan...Google "ethics of the meat industry," "ethics of the dairy industry," and "ethics of the egg industry." Also Google "environmental impact of meat consumption." You may be surprised by what you find.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

niss said:


> I find it strange that you seem to think that you are the appointed one who decides the validity of random people posting their opinions in this thread. That you fail to see the reasoning behind my choice of thought to share does not negate my reasons or opinion. Personally, I can't see that it is your concern.


I guess we shouldn't even have forums after all, what's the point of people discussing things? If you choose to post something in public, people are free to comment on what you posted, that's the purpose of forums. 
I didn't even call you any names or anything. I'm not even vegan if that's something relevant to you. You are the one who is blowing it out of proportion.


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## MsBossyPants (Oct 5, 2011)

tummyboxes said:


> I'm an INFP. I'm not a vegan, but there's nothing wrong with being one. I don't like how there's so many stereotypes about vegans, but I could personally never be one because I love bacon too much. *Veganism is also so so so expensive*, and as the youngest child in my family, I have no control over the groceries. I could be a vegetarian someday, though. Would just have to give up bacon lol.


No, it's not.

The number of servings of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains recommended in a Standard Diet (which includes meat and dairy) is the same as a vegan diet. Where a vegan diet varies is merely in the source of protein on your plate. 

At my local market, this morning:

One pound of dried black beans - $1.69/pound

cooked, will yield at least 12 - 1/2 cup servings

So for $1.69, I can make 12 servings of protein, or about 15 cents per serving.


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## SimplyRivers (Sep 5, 2015)

@dragthewaters

Alright, you're a vegan! Do you want a pat on the back or something. I don't want to be a vegan, there I said it. Don't shove your vegan ideas down everyone's throat; I'm not doing it to you, so don't do it to me.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

SimplyRivers said:


> @_dragthewaters_
> 
> Alright, you're a vegan! Do you want a pat on the back or something. I don't want to be a vegan, there I said it. Don't shove your vegan ideas down everyone's throat; I'm not doing it to you, so don't do it to me.


..........

a) I'm not a vegan, as I said several times.

b) The person asked me why people would be vegan. So I told them.

c) Maybe if you get this butthurt over people discussing why they are vegetarian/vegan, you shouldn't click on a thread entitled "Are you a vegan?", where it's a reasonable assumption people will be discussing the reasons behind their choice.

In conclusion:


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## SimplyRivers (Sep 5, 2015)

dragthewaters said:


> ..........
> 
> a) I'm not a vegan, as I said several times.
> 
> ...


What? I'm not 'butthurt'. I'm just stating that you shouldn't be so confrontational about your diet. I don't care if you're vegan, (or, whatever you are) no bad feelings. I just think everybody should be able to live their life freely. I sincerely apologize if I offended you in any shape or form.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

SimplyRivers said:


> What? I'm not 'butthurt'. I'm just stating that you shouldn't be so confrontational about your diet. I don't care if you're vegan, (or, whatever you are) no bad feelings. I just think everybody should be able to live their life freely. I sincerely apologize if I offended you in any shape or form.


In what way am I being confrontational? I'm not putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to be vegan. I'm just stating uncomfortable facts that we will all have to confront sooner or later.

I haven't stated anything that isn't supported by research:

*The IPCC, along with many other researchers and organizations, state that reduced meat consumption is essential to building an environmentally sustainable future: Eating less meat essential to curb climate change, says report | Environment | The Guardian

At our current meat consumption levels, if we limit carbon emissions to prevent a temperature rise above 2 degrees C, livestock will take up the ENTIRE carbon budget by 2050.

*Reducing or cutting out animal products is the most impactful thing an individual can do to reduce their carbon footprint:





*There are many vegan and vegetarian complete proteins, and many of them are even more easily digestible than meat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein

*Pigs are among the most intelligent animals:
IQ Tests Suggest Pigs Are Smart as Dogs, Chimps : Discovery News

*95% of meats (in the US) are factory farmed:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840.html

*Even the dairy and egg industries are unethical. For example, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are immediately killed after birth, and male calves born to dairy cows become veal.
10 Dairy Facts the Industry Doesn't Want You to Know
12 Egg Facts the Industry Doesn't Want You to Know

I'm sorry if you don't want to hear these things. But they are facts. Don't kill the messenger.


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

dragthewaters said:


> Wow, if anything YOU are the one who's getting ridiculously defensive here over nothing. Hmm I wonder what that's all about.


Of course I'm defensive. I gave an opinion in a poll ... get it? A poll ... and I'm told that I'm just using my opinion as an excuse not to think. This by someone who doesn't have the remotest idea of what thought I've invested in ANY topic. 



Red Panda said:


> I guess we shouldn't even have forums after all, what's the point of people discussing things? If you choose to post something in public, people are free to comment on what you posted, that's the purpose of forums.
> I didn't even call you any names or anything. I'm not even vegan if that's something relevant to you. You are the one who is blowing it out of proportion.


It's a poll. P-O-L-L. I could say that I would never be a vegan because <insert any reason> and it should not matter to you at all. IOW, it is none of your business as to my thought, or reasoning process. If the question were along the lines of "defend your position," then you would have a point. But in this thread? You are out of line.

Comment? That is one thing. To say that it is "just an excuse" is passing judgment on something about which you really don't have a clue. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. No clue.

I don't care if you are a purple people eater. I just don't care.

Now, how about the two of you bug off and quit with any mentions or quotes concerning me, in this thread. I really don't want the interaction with either of you.


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## Glenda Gnome Starr (May 12, 2011)

ESFP
Not a vegan
Due to current living situation, I cannot become a vegetarian, which would be my desired diet.
Still not sure what sort of diet to follow.
Vegan seems a little bit too strict to me.
Also, I'm not sure how vegans get their vitamin B-12.
I think that I would choose either a vegetarian or a Mediterranean diet.
Still researching these diets.


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## dragthewaters (Feb 9, 2013)

niss said:


> Of course I'm defensive. I gave an opinion in a poll ... get it? A poll ... and I'm told that I'm just using my opinion as an excuse not to think. This by someone who doesn't have the remotest idea of what thought I've invested in ANY topic.
> 
> It's a poll. P-O-L-L. I could say that I would never be a vegan because <insert any reason> and it should not matter to you at all. IOW, it is none of your business as to my thought, or reasoning process. If the question were along the lines of "defend your position," then you would have a point. But in this thread? You are out of line.
> 
> Comment? That is one thing. To say that it is "just an excuse" is passing judgment on something about which you really don't have a clue. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. No clue.


Debate was clearly going on in this thread before you got here. In PerC threads in general, there is an established precedent that discussion and debate will occur for any opinion that is stated, whether debate is specifically asked for or not. Otherwise the whole thread would just be people stating "Yes, I'm a vegan" or "No, meat is awesome" and no discussion would occur.

If you are really that sensitive, that someone challenging your opinion causes your fragile ego to shatter so that you erupt into a childish narcissistic temper tantrum, then next time keep your opinion to yourself.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

niss said:


> Of course I'm defensive. I gave an opinion in a poll ... get it? A poll ... and I'm told that I'm just using my opinion as an excuse not to think. This by someone who doesn't have the remotest idea of what thought I've invested in ANY topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeez... dude, I don't give a fuck about you, I challenged your argument, not who you are. When you say "I'm not X because Y" it's kinda meant that that's your reasons for choosing X. Since I don't know you, I can only comment on what you say. And in this specific case, it's quite common for people to avoid veganism because of the fanatics, so I challenged that.


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

I've been vegetarian for 5 1/2 weeks now and am eating almost exclusively plant-based (my shopping hauls, for example, are completely vegan). I'm not ready to officially declare myself vegan yet since I'm still adjusting into the lifestyle, but I'll most likely be at that point within the next few months. 

While health and the environment are certainly important to me, my primary motivation for making this switch was ethics. I've been an animal lover all my life, but until this year, I hadn't really made the connection between my ethics and my actions (mainly because I saw animal products as a necessary evil). A few months ago, though, it hit me that I couldn't truly call myself an animal lover while playing a part in their suffering, and after doing a lot of research and introspection, I decided to make a change.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

No. 

1)It's inconvenient. 
2)It's not natural (see B vitamins)
3)I metabolise meat better than grains/pulses. 
4)I get fat on a vegan diet
5)I don't like fussy people, or being fussy myself with food. 

As for the 'ethical' reasons, I'll answer with a question: 

Is a pig 'unethical' for being omnivorous and a gazelle 'ethical' for being a herbivore?


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

Aridela said:


> Is a pig 'unethical' for being omnivorous and a gazelle 'ethical' for being a herbivore?


No, animals can't be held to the same standard as us because they lack the same reasoning skills that we have. They can't ponder on whether their actions are ethical or not to nearly the same extent that we can. Any nonhuman animal who kills for food is not acting unethically but on instinct and need. Human beings do not act merely on instinct, nor is meat a need for us.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Ardielley said:


> No, animals can't be held to the same standard as us because they lack the same reasoning skills that we have. They can't ponder on whether their actions are ethical or not to nearly the same extent that we can. Any nonhuman animal who kills for food is not acting unethically but on instinct and need. Human beings do not act merely on instinct, nor is meat a need for us.


I don't think there are universal ethics you can apply to all humanity. 

Nature made you a certain way. If you want to eat just veggies that's your choice but you can't claim that those of us who chose not to are 'unethical'.


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

Aridela said:


> I don't think there are universal ethics you can apply to all humanity.
> 
> Nature made you a certain way. If you want to eat just veggies that's your choice but you can't claim that those of us who chose not to are 'unethical'.


This discussion is going to go around in circles if we argue the absolutism vs. relativity of what is ethical. My personal view is that while individual ethics are subjective, I see morality itself as objective.

Anyway, my point is that while you're not necessarily an unethical person, choosing to purchase from these industries that routinely exploit and slaughter animals is (in my view) immoral. If you don't agree, fine.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Ardielley said:


> This discussion is going to go around in circles if we argue the absolutism vs. relativity of what is ethical. My *personal view* is that while individual ethics are subjective, I see morality itself as objective.
> 
> Anyway, my point is that while you're not necessarily an unethical person, choosing to purchase from these industries that routinely exploit and slaughter animals is (*in my view*) immoral. If you don't agree, fine.


Yes.


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## leictreon (Jan 4, 2016)

INFP.

Sorry, I enjoy bacon, fried chicken, hamburgers, pasta and fish too much. And I've historically hated the taste of most vegetable foods. I think I only like fruit, rice and french fries, and sometimes lettuce.


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

Aridela said:


> Yes.


I'm not sure I see what your point is with this response. I _explained_ that my viewpoints are subjective, but they're ingrained in what I believe is right and wrong. Just like I see the unnecessary slaughter of human beings as wrong, for example, I believe that the unnecessary slaughter of nonhuman animals is wrong as well. Most people would agree that the former is typically wrong, yet their purchases of animal products contribute to the latter on a daily basis. 



leictreon said:


> INFP.
> 
> Sorry, I enjoy bacon, fried chicken, hamburgers, pasta and fish too much. And I've historically hated the taste of most vegetable foods. I think I only like fruit, rice and french fries, and sometimes lettuce.


It's a misconception that vegans only eat fruits and vegetables. Pretty much anything you could eat as an omnivore you can eat as a vegan if you make the right substitutions and get creative with spices and mixtures of different ingredients. Not to mention there's plenty of junk food out there that's still vegan-friendly.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Ardielley said:


> I'm not sure I see what your point is with this response. I _explained_ that my viewpoints are subjective, but they're ingrained in what I believe is right and wrong. Just like I see the unnecessary slaughter of human beings as wrong, for example, I believe that the unnecessary slaughter of nonhuman animals is wrong as well. Most people would agree that the former is typically wrong, yet their purchases of animal products contribute to the latter on a daily basis.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a misconception that vegans only eat fruits and vegetables. Pretty much anything you could eat as an omnivore you can eat as a vegan if you make the right substitutions and get creative with spices and mixtures of different ingredients. Not to mention there's plenty of junk food out there that's still vegan-friendly.


What I meant is that you're entitled to your own beliefs but you're not entitled to generalise for all people. 

It's your subjective truth based on your own morals.


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

Aridela said:


> What I meant is that you're entitled to your own beliefs but you're not entitled to generalise for all people.
> 
> It's your subjective truth based on your own morals.


Is that not what I just said, though? I _did_ say I view morality as a whole as objective in an earlier post, but that viewpoint stems from my subjective mindframe. Not everyone is going to agree with me on what's moral and what isn't, which is where individual ethics come in, but my subjective, individual ethics are connected to what I see as objectively right and wrong. 

So if an individual is contributing to the exploitation of animals unnecessarily, I'm going to see that as wrong. As long as billions of people are contributing to this worldwide, then yes, I _am_ entitled to generalize for those people, just like you're entitled to disagree with me.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Ardielley said:


> Is that not what I just said, though? I _did_ say I view morality as a whole as objective in an earlier post, but that viewpoint stems from my subjective mindframe. Not everyone is going to agree with me on what's moral and what isn't, which is where individual ethics come in, but my subjective, individual ethics are connected to what I see as objectively right and wrong.
> 
> So if an individual is contributing to the exploitation of animals unnecessarily, I'm going to see that as wrong. As long as billions of people are contributing to this worldwide, then yes, I _am_ entitled to generalize for those people, just like you're entitled to disagree with me.


That's why I highlighted the words: *personal view* and in *my view* when I quoted you. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.

I base my understanding of the world on logic, hence I'm an INTP. You can't ask me to base it on morals as I view them as subjective. Logically my eating animals has nothing to do with morality. It's for survival and pleasure. Animals and plants are both alive and some argue sentient. I can't see any differentiation between the two when I approach the issue from this perspective.


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## Shinsei (May 9, 2016)

INTJ
I can't live without eating meat


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## Ardielley (Aug 4, 2013)

Aridela said:


> That's why I highlighted the words: *personal view* and in *my view* when I quoted you. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.
> 
> I base my understanding of the world on logic, hence I'm an INTP. You can't ask me to base it on morals as I view them as subjective. Logically my eating animals has nothing to do with morality. It's for survival and pleasure. Animals and plants are both alive and some argue sentient. I can't see any differentiation between the two when I approach the issue from this perspective.


Fair enough, when you put it that way. I still don't agree with your outlook, but that's because we're coming from two entirely different perspectives.


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## Ride (Jun 30, 2016)

INFJ

I have the diet of a Tyrannosaurus Rex! Rawr!! Feed me meat!


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## Pepperminty (Jun 30, 2016)

INFJ

Been vegan for 2.5 years, never looked back  Because most animals feel both physical and emotional pain, whereas plants have no central nervous system to feel pain or brains for emotion. Also it's easier on the environment, I feel better than I ever did when I ate animal products, and the world is screwed up enough, I don't want to contribute any more suffering than I have to.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

I'm an INFP and a vegetarian: I don't eat meat or fish, but I do eat milk and eggs. Not sure if I should vote yes or no ...


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

I would like to think one day I could give up meat, but it probably won't happen.

I will concede that those who don't eat and meat, and don't shove their beliefs about killing animals for food down my throat, are morally superior than I.


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## CaboBayCaptain1297 (Mar 19, 2016)




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## Clyme (Jul 17, 2014)

Aridela said:


> That's why I highlighted the words: *personal view* and in *my view* when I quoted you. Sorry if that wasn't obvious.
> 
> I base my understanding of the world on logic, hence I'm an INTP. You can't ask me to base it on morals as I view them as subjective. Logically my eating animals has nothing to do with morality. It's for survival and pleasure. Animals and plants are both alive and some argue sentient. I can't see any differentiation between the two when I approach the issue from this perspective.


I don't mean to jump in here, but just as a passing comment, meat-eating, vegetarianism, and veganism are not, insofar as they are the diets they are, illogical to hold by default. Furthermore, in the way that you state your position ("I base my understanding of the world on logic"), whether you meant it that way or not, you are effectively stating that those who differ from your particular diet do not have logically-considered positions. There are people on both sides who are both logical and illogical in the positions they hold, regardless of whether their conclusions are correct. The same position holds for your mentioning of being an INTP, for there are NT meat-eaters and vegans too. NTs are not necessarily logical either, nor are NFs necessarily illogical. Anyway, I don't mean to jump in here or sound rude or anything, but I just wanted to clarify that statement. Regardless of what your intentions were, I thought it worthwhile to highlight what you are, in effect, saying.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ENTP, and a proud omnivore. Screw that all-veggie crap! I'll die earlier and enjoy every bite.

Of course, if they start making vegetable proteins that look, taste, and feel, like meat, I might be tempted to give it a try.


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## FemmeOnTheProwl (Oct 4, 2017)

Vegetarian; not vegan. 
I do organic eggs and some cheese.

ISTP


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