# Why are we the way we are?



## infinitia (Oct 31, 2011)

So now that I have a pretty good idea of how the MBTI theory works - I've been questioning _why_ we've developed into a certain type. Why is someone an S and not much of an N? Why would someone become an extreme introvert? A deep feeler?

I know that part of it is genetics - but how much of it? It's odd, because with an ISTJ father and an ISFP(?) mother, my INTJ brother and I constantly see faults in their statements and actions. It's hard to pinpoint what sort of personality traits I had possibly inherited from them. 

So I'm sure it's mostly the environmental influences that shaped us into who we are now, from one learning experience to another. We continue to be or do whatever was rewarding, and not what was punishing. Would some of us be introverted because we were put down for expressing ourselves early in life? I'm sure it's no coincidence that extroverted people are generally better looking; as kids they were probably looked up to as we're naturally more intimidated by good looks. Are we N and more intellectually driven because we were encouraged (through a specific occurrence, peers, parents, etc.) to be that way when we were really young? All of us go through that stage during childhood when we're naturally curious about our surroundings with endless "Why?" questions (see Erik Erikson's psychosocial stage theory - "Initiative vs. Guilt") - maybe some are S and less curious due to the fact that they were sort of let down (or "punished") during this stage. I've also noticed that those who are NT's are less attached to their parents, but I haven't looked into this very much yet.

I used to be a pretty prime example of an INFJ. I was really influenced by the religious school that I went to, but after I moved to a different country, my doubts and questions escalated so much that after some research and lots of thinking, I became aware of how much emotions can deter our perceptions of reality. It was a pretty strong epiphany and I've become more T ever since. And after all that time spent on thinking and analyzing, my N really developed, along with all the traveling and moving between places which really helped me become open-minded as well.

My J had also really developed through that private religious school, because it was a pretty rigorous one - and the fact that it was so small gave teachers the ability to make sure each of us did our work. I've become much better with time management and planning this way - it's almost like I was trained.

So it's a really strange thought to wonder what I would've been like if I had never attended that religious school. I probably wouldn't be as analytical or less intellectually driven, been more of a feeler, and maybe not have ended up at a great college if it weren't for that intense J-development. Same goes with all of these times in my life (especially childhood) that had really impacted me - it's somewhat mind blowing realizing that if I just so happened to _not_ experience some of them, my personality may have been really different right now. 

I guess what I'm getting at is - what would be the main reasons why someone would lean more towards each of the 8 letters? I often look at someone and try to analyze _why_ they are a certain way, but without making them explain their whole life to me, I think we'd able to have a general idea of why someone is more I or E, N or S, T or F, or P or J.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

I think people might sometimes go in the opposite direction of any extreme they've been exposed to, perhaps just in terms of becoming a T or F, like your religion example. My dad is an INTJ and he's softened up as he's gotten older ,but for a time he caused a lot of upset in the family because he was just arrogant and things had to be done his way or no way. I remember at some point thinking/deciding that I would not treat people that way, it was probably just the best and least harmful way of coping I could come up with, but I'm sure it's contributed to my F.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

We are the way we are based on basic instinctual elements, the environment we were raised, and what we were taught (or not taught) by our parents.

It's fairly simple to understand.

Now, try to figure out the missing pieces that make one person successful and another person...not as successful. 

For example, my friend grew up with a stepfather and a stepbrother. His parents divorced when he was young.

Growing up, he sometimes got himself into trouble. He wasn't the brightest kid, nor did he excel in athletics. However, he wasn't too bad to look at.

After high school, he joined the Air Force, was kicked out, but not before impregnating a girl. Upon returning home, he got a job at Circuit City. From Circuit City, he went to Car Toys, then Best Buy. He has been at Best Buy now for many years and makes 20-something an hour as an Installer.

About 5 years ago, he met his wife, but was dating someone and cheated on that person with his wife. Fast forward a few years. He now has a very nice home and two young boys...three young boys. I forgot about his son who resides in California with his mom.

He also drives a new $30k Toyota Tundra to work.

Now, take me. My parents are still married and play a large part in my life. I did better in school and athletics, despite not truly applying myself, and was also not too bad to look at. After school, I worked and went to community college. A few years later, I was accepted to a four-year university. A few years after that, I graduated with a BA in English...despite not truly applying myself.

It's been many years since then and I have still not found a career. I have bounced around from job to job, often not by any fault of my own...though, I have quit my last two.

I am single, though I was engaged once, and I have no children. I currently reside in my grandparents home while they pursue warmer climates and I am unemployed.

Tell me what happened. When did everything go wrong? Did my parents coddle me too much? Were they too supportive?

Until I have the answers, I fear that I will simply continue repeating the past.


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## TheBoss (Oct 27, 2011)

funcoolname said:


> I think people might sometimes go in the opposite direction of any extreme they've been exposed to, perhaps just in terms of becoming a T or F


That concept seems nice. In the big picture maybe a balance inside the family nuclear. Would work nice with physics.


Tend to believe much of character (and therefore its personality manifestations) is acquired by the stars/birth/genes. At least two major changes happen theoretically, one at early childhood and one later on.
During early childhood, the kind of interaction with others will be the lead. Mom taught you to love animals? Dad answered all your questions? Mom didn't talk? Dad beat you up? Etc, will make the child assume a personality, like a costume filled by and yet covering the actual character.
The 2nd big change is when one will confront the external influence and pick new external influences (from new friends, to books, to ideas, to new family).

But that, doesn't explain how some people change more than once or twice their type. (Note to self: incomplete theory to be worked on)


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## TheBoss (Oct 27, 2011)

Slider said:


> Tell me what happened. When did everything go wrong? Did my parents coddle me too much? Were they too supportive?


My guesses: No, it wasn't the coddling. And for one, you seem to be cautious in serious things, thoughtful. Luck did play its part but I think you too some care too for not letting someone pregnant to raise a kid alone. You seem to take serious things seriously. 
Let's suppose the last sentence is correct, I will deduct you couldn't pick a career because of an actual intimidation, perhaps subtle. Choosing a career is a damn serious thing. What if you chose the wrong one? 
*here insert the countless possible thoughts about the issue "career"*
Not everybody knows what they want to do as a job. People with diversified interests often have trouble with that. Another example is that many highly gifted kids end up underachieving from adolescence onwards and also have trouble picking one subject to career on. Or doing classes and sports just because they are good in them and someone picks them, but not because they have a passion to do them. And many people, are not satisfied/happy with jobs like circuit city's and if they have potential, they will avoid the 'let's work basic salary for 10 years, then raise a bit for another 10, then etc etc, reach 100 and die".
Could any of the above be close to why you never "applied" yourself to things?

I may be wrong ofc.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

Slider said:


> We are the way we are based on basic instinctual elements, the environment we were raised, and what we were taught (or not taught) by our parents.
> 
> It's fairly simple to understand.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the present economy isn't helping your situation :/ I think your answer can probably be found in your statements about "not truly applying yourself". While your friend didn't have the most stable home-life growing up, or the best education, etc. he eventually found things that he stuck with. Best Buy was probably not his dream job starting out, but he kept going and it paid off. I definitely think my mom coddled me a bit too much growing up and it took me a while to start taking responsibility for things and becoming used to the risk that comes with that. At least I learned for my kids if I have them - parents should be supporters, not coddlers  Oh and I don't think parents can be too supportive. The difference between supporting and coddling is that supporting is not as hands-on as coddling. Being supportive is like saying "I know you can do whatever it is you want to do if you try and I will help you in this way, but it is up to you" Coddling is like "No don't do that, this is how you do it, etc". It may or may not be what happened in your case. I'm also not saying you should get a job at Best Buy, but I've found in general that even if it's something you don't enjoy doing, it's best to put as much as you can into whatever job you have - it raises your chances of being able to jump to something you do actually enjoy, whenever it is that you find it.


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## Slider (Nov 17, 2009)

I actually quit my job at Best Buy a few weeks ago. I only made it four days.

Obviously, it was very difficult for me to work there, but I'm not sure why. Everything just seemed ridiculous and beneath me, including the pay.


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## infinitia (Oct 31, 2011)

Slider said:


> We are the way we are based on basic instinctual elements, the environment we were raised, and what we were taught (or not taught) by our parents.
> 
> It's fairly simple to understand.


Haha I clearly understand that already, but I was asking what specific types of occurrences had to have happened to make someone more T or F, P or J, etc. For example, I really am noticing that T's (or NT's) parents weren't as affectionate when they were younger, _OR_ they were overly affectionate. 
Someone who didn't feel very approved by a higher power - let's say their parents constantly hurt them, or they were constantly sent to the principle's office when younger, etc. - may have built this need to go against obligations, or is not as into the idea of formal education because it makes them feel confined. You know?



funcoolname said:


> I think people might sometimes go in the opposite direction of any extreme they've been exposed to, perhaps just in terms of becoming a T or F, like your religion example. My dad is an INTJ and he's softened up as he's gotten older ,but for a time he caused a lot of upset in the family because he was just arrogant and things had to be done his way or no way. I remember at some point thinking/deciding that I would not treat people that way, it was probably just the best and least harmful way of coping I could come up with, but I'm sure it's contributed to my F.


That's really interesting. I think we'd go in the opposite direction if we were _hurt_ by what we were exposed to. I think if a child had parents who were very T, but was treated very well, the child will learn and also want to be more T. If they were hurt by extreme T parents, they may turn against it and want to be more F. Maybe?



TheBoss said:


> Tend to believe much of character (and therefore its personality manifestations) is acquired by the stars/birth/genes. At least two major changes happen theoretically, one at early childhood and one later on.
> During early childhood, the kind of interaction with others will be the lead. Mom taught you to love animals? Dad answered all your questions? Mom didn't talk? Dad beat you up? Etc, will make the child assume a personality, like a costume filled by and yet covering the actual character.
> The 2nd big change is when one will confront the external influence and pick new external influences (from new friends, to books, to ideas, to new family).
> 
> But that, doesn't explain how some people change more than once or twice their type. (Note to self: incomplete theory to be worked on)


Ah I've been meaning to look into astrology - I sort of freaked out when I read how closely the description of Aquarius seemed to fit me. 

I definitely support your theory, though. We're first nurtured in a close knit by our family, then we're off to school (esp. college) and more on our own.. then boom. New insights, learnings, etc. Exposed to the "real world".




Slider said:


> Tell me what happened. When did everything go wrong? Did my parents coddle me too much? Were they too supportive?


It's true that a child becomes more independent when feeling somewhat betrayed by parents. Definitely how it can is/was for me. I definitely agree with @TheBoss - you seem like a thoughtful, careful person whereas your friend just sort of out there and instinctive. You want to make sure things don't go wrong, you don't want a job that's 'beneath' you, and making sure not to cheat and impregnate a girl. Also is he more socially skilled?


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

infinitia said:


> I used to be a pretty prime example of an INFJ. I was really influenced by the religious school that I went to, but after I moved to a different country, my doubts and questions escalated so much that after some research and lots of thinking, I became aware of how much emotions can deter our perceptions of reality. It was a pretty strong epiphany and I've become more T ever since. And after all that time spent on thinking and analyzing, my N really developed, along with all the traveling and moving between places which really helped me become open-minded as well.


I realize I've never addressed you directly, but I enjoy reading your posts. You and I are pretty similar. I always test INTJ but someone from the outside might say I'm INFJ. I also grew up in a religious school and wonder how different my life would have been if I hadn't. If there is such a thing as a turning point, I started using a lot more T after leaving a very bad relationship. It no longer made sense, I realized how clouded my judgment had become, and I've never really looked back.


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## infinitia (Oct 31, 2011)

corgiflatmate said:


> I realize I've never addressed you directly, but I enjoy reading your posts. You and I are pretty similar. I always test INTJ but someone from the outside might say I'm INFJ. I also grew up in a religious school and wonder how different my life would have been if I hadn't. If there is such a thing as a turning point, I started using a lot more T after leaving a very bad relationship. It no longer made sense, I realized how clouded my judgment had become, and I've never really looked back.


Aw thanks so much - that's really nice of you.  It's always encouraging to bump into people who are actually like me.. I know someone who is _really_ like me, except this was back when I was INFJ. Her and I still talk, but it's just not the same since I've really railed up my T and sometimes find her flowery feelings irksome. I can't really relate to any girls now..

Oh god, my T sky rocketed even more after leaving a relationship as well. It wasn't even a bad relationship, but now I really don't let my emotions get in the way. I feel like a man, lol. I sometimes wonder if I'm a closet INFJ, but I've changed so much that I kinda doubt it.


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## quadrivium (Nov 6, 2011)

infinitia said:


> I feel like a man, lol.


Think like a man, act like a lady lol
I hear that, though. Emotions are fine and all, but they really get in the way when it comes to decision-making.


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## randomness123 (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't really think it's possible to work out what percentage comes from our environment and genes until we have more scientific evidence. You could appear to share a certain trait with your parents, but that's just a casual, not a causal link - the trait could come from anywhere. This is an NT thread after all...


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

In no particular order: 

biochemical programming/genetics (this determines who we are a LOT more than we like to admit to ourselves, IMHO)

social environment (especially role models in the childhood setting)

traumas we've experienced

psychological problems

chemical or behavioral addictions

intelligence


All of these criteria (some of which of course may overlap with others) combine in a very complex, non-linear and non-quantifiable way (which differs in each person) to form our personalities. MBTI measures only some of these things, and is largely inconclusive as to whether our MBTI type is "who" we're hard wired to be, or whether it's an effect of all of those mixed together.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

corgiflatmate said:


> Think like a man, act like a lady lol
> I hear that, though. Emotions are fine and all, but they really get in the way when it comes to decision-making.


I think your NT bias/blindness is showing here. 

Not all decisions are best made using the logic that we NT's so love.


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## infinitia (Oct 31, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> I think your NT bias/blindness is showing here.
> 
> Not all decisions are best made using the logic that we NT's so love.


I agree that not all good decisions are made using NT - in fact, I think it's impossible. As human beings, we are wired to be in touch with feelings, but it's up to the person to admit it or not. We'll sacrifice what seems more logical if it ultimately means getting our deeper feelings satisfied.

But I think you know what @corgiflatmate meant. Most decisions are best made when done rationally, even if it means crying yourself to sleep for a week.


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