# Dear NF's, what annoys you the most about rationals?



## EndsOfTheEarth (Mar 14, 2015)

Aelthwyn said:


> I appreciate seeing that you deal with the emotion first too. It's just that I need the interaction/sympathy to deal with the emotion and get it out of the way, and NTs need to deal with it privately. It's when that step gets skipped that I have a lot of trouble moving on with life and dealing with the situation.


I think NT have difficulty with this because outpouring of emotion tends to just solidify our emotions rather than let them go. The more talk about how I'm feeling, the more intensely I feel it and that's uncomfortable. So perhaps this failure to allow an NF to vent is where the wires are really crossed. We each do the exact thing that would cause the other to feel more uncomfortable rather than less so. It's interesting that you mention having the relationship reaffirmed during a time of distress is really important to your wellbeing. I have the habit of assuming that once a relationship is forged, in the absence of any kind of evidence to the contrary that relationship exists in perpetuity. So reaffirming it, just doesn't even occur to me as an action to take. It would be like reaffirming that I can breathe or similar. 



> It's interesting you mention handing it over to your subconscious. I find I need to consciously brainstorm, but I do have to prevent myself from simply 'brooding' by thinking about the problem when I'm not in a mindset or situation where I can actually make any progress towards a solution.


Probably the clearest distinction I've seen between Ni & Ne. Brainstorming is something I just can't do, it's like a brake on my creativity. I hate it when I must do this at work in a group setting because I feel as if someone just stoppered my font of idea's. So Ne is largely a foreground process that needs to engage the conscious mind while Ni is background process that needs the conscious mind to let go to truly work. I have weak Ne, which causes me all sorts of issues with people who use it heavily, I often can't follow their line of thinking and feel disorientated by it. 



> This is exactly like my friend, though she's trying to loose weight and doesn't want me to even mention good sounding food... She tells me she wants distraction, so I do try to do that but somehow don't always seem very good at it. She tends to get irritated when I try to bring up things she isn't thinking about or into right now, but... I either can't read her mind as to what she would enjoy thinking about, or even if I know what she's into at this time I'm not currently reading the same series or watching the same show or reading about the same information or mulling over the same concept etc. so I don't really have enough knowledge to make an interesting discussion about it  so I end up feeling helpless to distract her.


I know that frustration too. It could just be that she needs a little more 'me time' and your suggestions are just a bit too early in her process. Ni and tertiary Fi are very slow moving. I find the Fi-Ne combo to be lightening fast by comparison. It's possible that your desire to feel comfort in the moment is way ahead of the slowly ambling Ni-Fi which likes to just sit and observe until the dust settles. If we were prey, I'd liken the INFP to a gazelle and the INTJ to a chameleon in terms of how they deal with their flight or fight response. We are that different I think. Often if the circumstances do not allow me complete privacy then I camoflage in terms of being busy and putting on a show of everything being alright until I can find that private space and let everything simmer to the surface in it's own time. 

If she's on a diet and trying to lose weight, you can always tempt her by learning a new diet legal recipe. I do this all the time to soothe myself. Rather than grab a chocolate bar I'll likely grab some organic cocoa, dates, nuts and cranberries and make my own truffles that don't send my blood sugar levels sky-high the way a processed snack does. The payoff is really in the process of making something new, treating myself by learning a skill. The sneaky way to draw an INTJ in is to phrase things like this....

_Well I'm going to spend the afternoon making these great blah, blah, blah. I found a new recipe, looks delicious. You can join me if you want. No pressure. _


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## Aelthwyn (Oct 27, 2010)

InSolitude said:


> I think NT have difficulty with this because outpouring of emotion tends to just solidify our emotions rather than let them go. The more talk about how I'm feeling, the more intensely I feel it and that's uncomfortable. So perhaps this failure to allow an NF to vent is where the wires are really crossed. We each do the exact thing that would cause the other to feel more uncomfortable rather than less so.


mhmm. Interestingly, it seems to me like my ISFP husband is somewhat similar. While he does usually appreciate shows of sympathy, he doesn't want to actually talk through or vent the feelings because he feels like that gives them more solidity or makes them stronger as you said. And for me it's really a release that I need to get them out so I can move on, if I don't get to express them to someone who is understanding I get mentally hung up on brooding over them and stirring them up into worse and worse feelings. With my INTJ friend she likes to hear a 'snap out of it' when she moans to me, but when she says that to me it makes me feel unheard so I express louder which of course is the exact opposite of the affect she was hoping for. And I like to hear an 'aww, I know how you feel, that sucks' and just hearing that makes me feel loads better, but when I say that to her it of course brings about the opposite effect. It's one of those things that mutual understanding can help with, but it's just a natural part of our mental-make-up that can't be expected to change. 



> It's interesting that you mention having the relationship reaffirmed during a time of distress is really important to your wellbeing. I have the habit of assuming that once a relationship is forged,* in the absence of any kind of evidence to the contrary* that relationship exists in perpetuity. So reaffirming it, just doesn't even occur to me as an action to take. It would be like reaffirming that I can breathe or similar.


ah, but here's the thing, a failure to volunteer emotional support when someone's in distress _IS_ evidence to the contrary, indicating that the relationship isn't secure, from an INFP perspective. Similar to this my INTJ friend says that once the 'I love you' has been said once and established there's no point in repeating it, it simply remains understood. It's a perspective I can mentally 'get', but for me my inner state of affection for someone automatically outpours in affectionate words like that and thus if I stop saying it, it's a sign that my internal regard is no longer the same and I may not actually like you anymore - which is why a lack of reaffirmation naturally registers to me as a warning sign that all is not well. Realizing this difference really helps in understanding each-other, but it can be hard to always remember to consciously override one's natural language and re-interpret it into the way you know the other person communicates. 




> I know that frustration too. It could just be that she needs a little more 'me time' and your suggestions are just a bit too early in her process. Ni and tertiary Fi are very slow moving. I find the Fi-Ne combo to be lightening fast by comparison. It's possible that your desire to feel comfort in the moment is way ahead of the slowly ambling Ni-Fi which likes to just sit and observe until the dust settles. If we were prey, I'd liken the INFP to a gazelle and the INTJ to a chameleon in terms of how they deal with their flight or fight response. We are that different I think. Often if the circumstances do not allow me complete privacy then I camoflage in terms of being busy and putting on a show of everything being alright until I can find that private space and let everything simmer to the surface in it's own time.
> 
> . . . The sneaky way to draw an INTJ in is to phrase things like this....
> 
> _Well I'm going to spend the afternoon making these great blah, blah, blah. I found a new recipe, looks delicious. You can join me if you want. No pressure. _


interesting comparison! I will keep that in mind. And I think you're right that trying a direct approach of "perhaps this will help you" is less effective for my friend and can even make her kind of stubbornly resistant, while talking about something as if independent so there's no pressure helps draw her out.


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

My bad reading this I was thinking rational as Judging Dom - but if we're talking NTs- then I don't have much to say  


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

They're mostly just annoying when they develop an inflated sense of their own competence, and sometimes it's kind of funny seeing how the emotions that they consider beneath their notice can wreak havoc on their lives. Sometimes it seems like they have difficulty assessing value, get into an ethical argument with some of them and they will fixate on some pedantic and supposedly logical point that poorly tracks the substance of the argument, and then confuse themselves and the entire debate in the process all while insisting that it must be pivotal, because of _reasons_. These are all more so traits of arrogant people with rigid thinking than it is rationals, though.


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## Crimplene for men (Nov 6, 2014)

umop 3pisdn said:


> They're mostly just annoying when they develop an inflated sense of their own competence, and sometimes it's kind of funny seeing how the emotions that they consider beneath their notice can wreak havoc on their lives. Sometimes it seems like they have difficulty assessing value, get into an ethical argument with some of them and they will fixate on some pedantic and supposedly logical point that poorly tracks the substance of the argument, and then confuse themselves and the entire debate in the process all while insisting that it must be pivotal, because of _reasons_. These are all more so traits of arrogant people with rigid thinking than it is rationals, though.


I remember being like that when I was younger, but these days I just don't feel the need to argue the toss. There's more to life than proving a point. Is it worth the energy? Is it worth potentially alienating the other person unnecessarily? Is it worth potentially stressing myself out? Probably not a very NT attitude, but they do say that Fe develops with age.

I do tend to withdraw at times, which could be mistaken for coldness. That's usually when I'm angry or upset and don't want to come out with emotionally loaded statements that could make a situation worse. I usually go away, calm down and think about how best to talk about it. That means I can then get it out in the open and express my feelings in a healthy way. 

I'm surrounded by Feelers and grew up with them though, so tend to be accommodating. :happy:


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## untested methods (May 8, 2015)

For the most part, we get along fine.

One _very specific_ NT I have horrible, stereotypical and immature arguments with now and then. I don't care who was or wasn't justified and if a wrongdoing was or was not rational at the time, but our conflicts tend to revolve mostly around that after the fact. 

I just care that someone realizes on an emotional level why something was wrong and why it caused damage.


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## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

several things!

i hate how things just _need_ to make sense to them in order to be valid. why does everything need to make sense? why can't some things just be? it sucks to share an idea that's important to me with an NT/ST, only to have it dismissed almost immediately because it doesn't follow logic or reason. also, i'm fond of off-the-wall, ironic humor, and they don't always "get" whether i'm joking or just a huge weirdo (it's actually both). that sucks too. 

this kind of goes hand-in-hand with that first statement, but i also hate being required by a rational friend or family member to explain things that i only understand in an intuitive sense and can't put into words (which isn't really something i should get annoyed about, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to be asked to do, but still).

i do love thinker types (NTs in particular), most of my good friends are thinkers and my romantic history consists of them almost exclusively. i just get annoyed with their computer brains sometimes.


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## Crimplene for men (Nov 6, 2014)

mhysa said:


> several things!
> 
> i hate how things just _need_ to make sense to them in order to be valid. why does everything need to make sense? why can't some things just be? it sucks to share an idea that's important to me with an NT/ST, only to have it dismissed almost immediately because it doesn't follow logic or reason. also, i'm fond of off-the-wall, ironic humor, and they don't always "get" whether i'm joking or just a huge weirdo (it's actually both). that sucks too.


I don't know many thinkers in real life apart from my partner, but we're both quite weird and we like weirdos. To be honest things that don't make sense drive me mad, but that's usually my own issues and wondering about stuff like why we've invaded certain countries under the guise of humanitarian issues and made them worse when it's obvious that it's going to end up in a shit storm? What is the real agenda behind that? 

I really hope that I'm not that rude person who just dismisses other people's ideas because they don't make sense to me personally. I don't make sense to a lot of people and appear to be pretty random and chaotic, but I have my reasons for doing what I do. I think everyone does and they aren't obliged to explain them. We have to respect those boundaries.


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## Tram (Jun 24, 2015)

I dislike the tendency some have to stereotype Fi users.


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## Verity3 (Nov 15, 2014)

It REEEEALLY bothers me when people announce how logical they are, then proceed to advance their propaganda using cherry-picked facts, distinctions without a difference, and/or flat-out emotional rhetoric with the excuse "I'm only doing this because you asked for it." I'm pretty sure this isn't an NT-specific problem, though.

I strongly prefer cooperative dialogue over competitive debate. I think it actually fosters accountability to the rules of logic.


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## Eggsies (Feb 5, 2013)

Aelthwyn said:


> I know emotions aren't always simple but I really don't know where people get this idea that they don't make sense, that they are random and arbitrary. I can certainly see clear chains of cause and effect with people's emotions.
> 
> Emotions provide a source of energy or they drain energy. Emotions give people motivation and drive. Emotional factors have a very practical effect on things.


I don't think ENFJs would have evolved socially if this wasn't the case. I don't think I would be spending most of my mental energy thinking about how to drive social progress if this wasn't, either. Values and principles are how we rationalize these subjective experiences, and if these were not important variables, then you hit a dead end on explaining the irrationality of the masses. It has been observed that the effect can work both ways, for progression and regression, I think that being able to affect people on a societal level without any physical entity as a basis for that movement is fucking insane.

As for my experiences with my NT friends, being the vast majority of the people I'm close with, teaching them how to clinically observe the combination of a life experience and an emotional response, in relation to a resultant behaviour, has helped them understand themselves a lot more about themselves. It has helped them feel more comfortable with their emotions, and knowing not just the factual basis of their decisions, but also their inclination for them, has made many of them feel more confident in their decisions.

Of course it's vice versa for myself.


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## Aizar (Mar 21, 2011)

I just wanna talk about my FEELS, man! :shocked:

^That. They always get this strange caged animal expression on their faces when I get in that mode... :laughing:


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## LandOfTheSnakes (Sep 7, 2013)

The idea that emotions aren't an incredibly important facet of rational thought, especially in regards to human related issues.


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## Vahyavishdapaya (Sep 2, 2014)

mhysa said:


> several things!
> 
> i hate how things just _need_ to make sense to them in order to be valid. why does everything need to make sense? why can't some things just be? it sucks to share an idea that's important to me with an NT/ST, only to have it dismissed almost immediately because it doesn't follow logic or reason.


If your ideas are being dismissed as illogical and irrational then it means they're crap and full of holes, and need to be improved and refined. Don't take it personally the next time somebody dismisses your ideas as illogical or irrational. Criticism is an opportunity for you to improve your idea. Just because something is important to you, doesn't mean its perfect, and it doesn't mean it can't be improved!

Also everything has to make sense, or else it's a figment of your imagination and doesn't exist in reality, which is why other people will have a hard time understanding it. Unless they can somehow get inside of your head, they're not going to know unless you explain your thoughts in a way that makes sense.


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## Tetsuo Shima (Nov 24, 2014)

It's annoying how 5w6s think science can explain everything.


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## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

Spitta Andretti said:


> If your ideas are being dismissed as illogical and irrational then it means they're crap and full of holes, and need to be improved and refined. Don't take it personally the next time somebody dismisses your ideas as illogical or irrational. Criticism is an opportunity for you to improve your idea. Just because something is important to you, doesn't mean its perfect, and it doesn't mean it can't be improved!


this is exactly what i'm talking about! the ideas i'm talking about aren't based in logic or rationality in the first place, they're based in emotion and feelsy things. they come from a place of intuitiveness and subconscious and weird stuff like that. they're not meant to be viewed through that lens. that's why it's so frustrating to share that type of idea with ST/NTs, it's the only lens they can (comfortably) see things through. always about "refining" and making things more cohesive, more sensical. that is sooooo not my intention with a lot of my ideas.


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## Groovy (Jan 4, 2015)

I guess this is partly stereotypical and partly based on experience;

- Arrogance
- Can be sociopathic at times, when unhealthy it's scary
- Think feelers are automatically not as intelligent by default lol

On the whole though I love NTs


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## peyandkeele (Jul 28, 2015)

Lol its funny hearing how people with different "brain wiring" react to people of my type. Some of the gripes the F types hear have make little to no sense to me, and reading through the thread kinda puts things into perspective. The way us t types irritate f types is basically the same way you f types can get on the nerves of some of us t types. Its because the way we rationalize things makes little sense to the other types, we get on each others nerves in this regard. This is actually quite interesting to me to see how different we can be. 

I will say in my own defense as an nt, that its not that i dont feel things at all, but i honestly just dont feel like showing off my feelings very often. "emoting" as some put it, wears on my energy, and when being emotional wastes my energy, then i see little reason to unnecessarily waste more of my valuable energy, by putting out constant shows of emotion. And as far as rationalizing facts goes, in my own brain things have to make sense, and that means finding as many facts as possible to support an idea to make sure its valid. If theres not enough facts to support an idea, or if the facts tend to contradict themselves, then in my own brain the idea is invalid, until I or someone else finds more evidence to support the idea. To me personally, feeling something is right never made sense to me, because it always felt like it was another way of saying i made this fact up. To me unless you can physically prove it, then(to me) theres nothing to your theory in my own mind(exceptions do apply in a few cases). Of course this just all translates to mean, i dont understand feelings the way you f types do, so i choose to stay well enough away from using feelings as a point of rationale.

Id also like to point out that this isnt me bashing feelers at all, so much as im trying to give insight on how some of us thinkers, well, think. And why we may not always relate to feelers types or there emotions. or at least give insight to how i may not relate to feelers.


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## stripedfurball (Jun 7, 2015)

Aizar said:


> I just wanna talk about my FEELS, man! :shocked:
> 
> ^That. They always get this strange caged animal expression on their faces when I get in that mode... :laughing:


LOL!!! Yeah, this, right there, is at the top of the list lately. Or making puns while I'm trying to have a discussion about something that's bothering me (my NT family). Or completely blipping past some kind of emotional statement I've made and clearly hoping I'll forget about it and won't bring it up again (STJ boyfriend). I know the situation as described is really funny if you think about how it plays out, but it's really maddening when it's actually happening.


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## Logical Ambivert Feeler (Aug 17, 2011)

The bluntness.....but then you realise they aren't actually being mean and you appreciate the criticism so you can improve yourself


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