# Why going vegan might not be a good idea



## Persona Maiden

Forest Nymph said:


> Actually strict vegetarianism and what essentially amounts to being vegan appears both in Jain culture and in ancient China in Buddhist and Taoist traditions, though Jainism is millions of years old, probably the world's oldest, still running, organized religion, so it's easier just to say "Jains." Besides, although many modern Jains in India are lacto-vegetarians, Jains who move to the West have such a serious problem with the way dairy is procured here (because in Jainism cows must be cared for and loved, be allowed to give their milk to their calves, live out a normal healthy life, and not be murdered for meat or leather) that most Jains who leave India become what we now call "vegans." But something has existed in their culture from ancient times that wasn't called "veganism" that is essentially veganism (actually stricter, because they also won't consume fermented foods and root veggies in some cases).
> 
> *Historically speaking, veganism makes an appearance in Israeli/Jewish culture too, because in the Creation story, Adam and Eve are obviously vegan.* The world vegan was coined in the English speaking world in 1944, but India had an organization similar to the Vegan Society beginning in the 1920s, and we really can't take credit as Westerners for inventing the idea (and it's a bad idea to do so anyway, because it deludes present-day Westerners into the idea that there's something horribly unnatural and painfully difficult about veganism that never existed before 1980 - I've actually encountered idiots who didn't think vegans existed until the 21st century).
> 
> So that's where I was going with that, I concede your point, but maintain my own, with explanation.
> 
> Yes, the biggest hurdle to vegan nutrition is culture and education. For example if someone doesn't know how to feed themselves properly then of course they'll starve or have deficiencies. The barriers to that though have nothing to do with the wholesomeness of plant-based diets in and of themselves. We also have a hard time teaching children from Arkansas evolution, and adults from Alabama about climate change, but that doesn't make those concepts any less valid. Veganism is similar.


Just to point out, while that's true, that would have been before the fall, and after that people did eat meat.


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## Mammon

Welp, after struggling for a while about eating animals as immoral in this day and age as a first world human being. And after the dream of this cute little white elephant that I held in my hands as an archetype for all animals, I have now concluded I shall continue eating meat. I am disappointed. Some animals live a terrible life and not only that, they'll get slaughtered for food...

It's truly abhorrently disgusting.

I hope one day science will be able to lab create all vitamins and such needed for the human body.

Gambarou, Science-sama

In the mean time I will try to cook as much as I can without meat and only eat as much meat as I need.


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## Mick Travis

Forest Nymph said:


> The fact that most Westerners maintain willful ignorance about vegan nutrition says a lot about the influence of the meat and dairy industries on your TV soaked brains.















Forest Nymph said:


> that never existed before 1980


In the 80's, a lot of money got poured into media to make America Subservient Again.


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## SilentScream

I'm not looking to debate or argue, but I think some of the attitudes against Veganism are being driven by fear of potential ostracization from large populations in case veganism is adopted as wider morality as a whole. 

I believe that deep down most people know that killing innocent animals for food in this day and age is a lifestyle _choice _rather than an actual _necessity _... Most people know somewhere in their hearts that it is immoral, but since it's harder to accept that one is being immoral, it's easier to _ignore _morality in this lifestyle entirely. We don't think about the animal that is on our plate. We've trained ourselves to simply look at it as an object instead of it being a living thing once. 

(I do accept the "veganism is too expensive" argument however because I've done the math and my wife and I cannot afford a vegan lifestyle at our income levels and so someone making under 30k in the US simply cannot get enough nutrition without eating meat once in a while imo). 

I completely accept that some people look at meat and they see the animal it came from and it makes it unpalatable for them. 

I'm one of those people who willingly accepts that I'm engaged in something immoral every time I eat meat but I'm incapable of changing my lifestyle right now because I have not been able to overcome my desire for meat. 

I think vegans are the ones who have the right ideas and they should be listened to instead of being ridiculed or ignored.


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## Dragunov

Has anyone who see's eating meat immoral unironically gone hunting or at least grown their own food?


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## Westy365

Archon of Life said:


> Most 'Real Food' (minimal to no processing) is bitter to the palate of a lot of people. Perhaps even the majority of Americans, as it's a fact that the majority of food to be found in a grocery has added sugars.
> 
> When one purges their palate of artificial sweets by consuming absolutely none of it for a while, everything else and even the fake sweets begin to taste better. A soda is nearly nauseatingly sweet and simple salad base has a sweet tinge to it, one now able to taste the ever so subtle glucose resulting from the greens' photosynthesis.
> 
> Not that I'm vegan or even vegetarian. Rather, your relative enjoys the food she does because she actually does really enjoy its taste - and it's likely that you're simply not accustomed to something so pure.


I get that—my wife and I have done our best to purge added and processed sugar from our diet. We can't afford to buy the fancy health food stuff we'd like to eat, so we do the best we can by cooking from scratch. We have noticed a difference in the way things taste, and we both agree that a lot of food in America is overly sweetened and makes us feel gross. 

But if I'm going to make a cake, I'm not going to make it out of kale. Cake should taste remotely like cake. You can make it less unhealthy, but I'd rather just not eat cake than to make one that is an "abomination" haha. Kale can be good in some things, but I'm sorry, even after eating healthy for over a year, I don't register _any_ sweet notes from kale. I'd rather just have a savory food with kale in it than to try to eat a kale cake. Dessert should be enjoyed, and should not feel like a punishment (imho). 

Said relative made a smoothie the other day, and I think she used maybe 1 banana in the entire blender, along with avocados, spinach, and kale. No honey, no berries, nothing. It tasted disgusting and bland. It would've been fine if she had just added, I don't know, some FRUIT. She excluded other fruits because "they have sugar."

My opinion is that natural sugars in the form of berries and fruit are perfectly healthy in moderation. Putting strawberries into a smoothie does not make it unhealthy. Unless one is allergic, has diabetes, or some other health problem, I don't see why berries are a problem. She just takes things to the extreme and she sacrifices seemingly all the flavor in order to be "healthy." She tried one of the smoothies I made once, and she said it was the best she'd ever had. I pretty much just use berries, spinach, bananas, cocoa, milk, and up to 1 tablespoon of honey (I adjust to taste). It just doesn't seem like a difficult skill to master, but then again, maybe cooking/baking/making food just isn't her strength.


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## Mick Travis

Jawz said:


> someone making under 30k in the US simply cannot get enough nutrition without eating meat once in a while imo


I clash with those who wield power, so I've been a poor vegetarian for a couple of decades. I've even picked bacon out of beans in the soup kitchen. I'm 50, and people say I look 35. At work, I'm out performing the the 30 year old dishwashers.


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## incision

Forest Nymph said:


> Actually strict vegetarianism and what essentially amounts to being vegan appears both in Jain culture and in ancient China in Buddhist and Taoist traditions, though Jainism is millions of years old, probably the world's oldest, still running, organized religion, so it's easier just to say "Jains." Besides, although many modern Jains in India are lacto-vegetarians, Jains who move to the West have such a serious problem with the way dairy is procured here (because in Jainism cows must be cared for and loved, be allowed to give their milk to their calves, live out a normal healthy life, and not be murdered for meat or leather) that most Jains who leave India become what we now call "vegans." But something has existed in their culture from ancient times that wasn't called "veganism" that is essentially veganism (actually stricter, because they also won't consume fermented foods and root veggies in some cases).


The number of Jains in the U.S., Canada, Europe and other countries equate to less than 300,000 are dwarfed by the 4.5+ million in India and not all the 300K have gone vegan, only the youth movement which doesn't represent the majority, even among Jain youths.



> Historically speaking, veganism makes an appearance in Israeli/Jewish culture too, because in the Creation story, Adam and Eve are obviously vegan. The world vegan was coined in the English speaking world in 1944, but India had an organization similar to the Vegan Society beginning in the 1920s, and we really can't take credit as Westerners for inventing the idea (and it's a bad idea to do so anyway, because it deludes present-day Westerners into the idea that there's something horribly unnatural and painfully difficult about veganism that never existed before 1980 - I've actually encountered idiots who didn't think vegans existed until the 21st century).


This is irrelevant to my point, one of how you're attempting to define Jains as vegans, would be inaccurate.



> So that's where I was going with that, I concede your point, but maintain my own, with explanation.


There's a Jain youth movement in the U.S. that's going vegan but they're only a small portion of the 150,000 in the U.S. and the under 300,000 all over the world besides India.

I'm pushing my point because people need to understand that you've greatly exaggerated food preferences for Jains and while it appears that you're passionate about your eating preferences, it would be better if you brought facts to the table.



> Yes, the biggest hurdle to vegan nutrition is culture and education. For example if someone doesn't know how to feed themselves properly then of course they'll starve or have deficiencies. The barriers to that though have nothing to do with the wholesomeness of plant-based diets in and of themselves. We also have a hard time teaching children from Arkansas evolution, and adults from Alabama about climate change, but that doesn't make those concepts any less valid. Veganism is similar.


You do you, I'll continue to consume an omnivorous diet while supporting your right to have your own food preferences but debunking any b/s.


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## Mammon

Mick Travis said:


> I clash with those who wield power, so I've been a poor vegetarian for a couple of decades. I've even picked bacon out of beans in the soup kitchen. I'm 50, and people say I look 35. At work, I'm out performing the the 30 year old dishwashers.


Your avater now makes sense. All of it. Fully.


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## Archon of Life

Westy365 said:


> I get that—my wife and I have done our best to purge added and processed sugar from our diet. We can't afford to buy the fancy health food stuff we'd like to eat, so we do the best we can by cooking from scratch. We have noticed a difference in the way things taste, and we both agree that a lot of food in America is overly sweetened and makes us feel gross.
> 
> But if I'm going to make a cake, I'm not going to make it out of kale. Cake should taste remotely like cake. You can make it less unhealthy, but I'd rather just not eat cake than to make one that is an "abomination" haha. Kale can be good in some things, but I'm sorry, even after eating healthy for over a year, I don't register _any_ sweet notes from kale. I'd rather just have a savory food with kale in it than to try to eat a kale cake. Dessert should be enjoyed, and should not feel like a punishment (imho).
> 
> Said relative made a smoothie the other day, and I think she used maybe 1 banana in the entire blender, along with avocados, spinach, and kale. No honey, no berries, nothing. It tasted disgusting and bland. It would've been fine if she had just added, I don't know, some FRUIT. She excluded other fruits because "they have sugar."
> 
> My opinion is that natural sugars in the form of berries and fruit are perfectly healthy in moderation. Putting strawberries into a smoothie does not make it unhealthy. Unless one is allergic, has diabetes, or some other health problem, I don't see why berries are a problem. She just takes things to the extreme and she sacrifices seemingly all the flavor in order to be "healthy." She tried one of the smoothies I made once, and she said it was the best she'd ever had. I pretty much just use berries, spinach, bananas, cocoa, milk, and up to 1 tablespoon of honey (I adjust to taste). It just doesn't seem like a difficult skill to master, but then again, maybe cooking/baking/making food just isn't her strength.


The real solution is to just never have anything unhealthy in the first place. Mine, anyways. Some days it kind of feels masochistic, utterly depriving myself of...a lot of stuff. But upon the blue moons when I do have 'fake food', I always feel worse for wear and it usually shows too. The other day I made the mistake of getting blazed and not really having any food at all in the house, sans a few long lasting leftovers from less healthy days (ought to throw them away really). Cue munchies kicking in and me figuring; _shit, it's just on occasion. _

Then I wake up to a big old zit on my chin. 

But that's anecdotal, really. Humans do have kidneys for a reason. Birthday cake won't ever ruin your body, but I myself never feel good after having those kinds of sweets anymore. 




...And bananas most definitely have sugar. All fruits do. They all have glucose. If something natural is sweet, it has glucose. Your relative is a little off.


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## Forest Nymph

Persona Maiden said:


> Just to point out, while that's true, that would have been before the fall, and after that people did eat meat.


If you're actually interested in the history of Judaism you might want to check out the Books of Enoch. Enoch was apparently Noah's grandfather or Noah's great-grandfather (I'm taking this strictly from memory, you can look up the lineage for sure elsewhere if you care but he was a ancestor of Noah). Noah, you know, who G-d appointed as the only righteous man living on Earth, or the only one righteous enough to lead the warning to the sinful people around him that the world would be destroyed by a flood and built an ark. He was also chosen to save all of the animal species on Earth, two by two.

In the Books of Enoch, meat eating is described as an activity taught to humans by giant demons, along with other unsavory activities like war and seduction. In case you didn't notice, Noah and his family didn't eat animals either and were only allowed to do so because the entire earth and therefore all crops were covered in ocean.

Later, in Daniel, when Daniel and his men eat vegetables for G-d, they are stronger than the king's men fed on a rich diet of meat and wine. Then in Isaiah, a book well known for it's prediction of the birth of Christ, also describes the future heavenly paradise as being a place of no violence, of obvious vegetarianism, where lions lay down with lambs, there's no bloodshed. It's interesting how many Christians just kind of ....skim over all of this.

Interestingly, Israel has more vegans now per capita than any other nation currently in existence. 

You should also look into how many early Christians were vegetarian and the admonishments that eating meat didn't matter came from PAUL not Jesus, and he only did so in an attempt to compromise with Romans, people who ate dogs and cats and fed humans to wild animals for entertainment.

Also, there was no Nazareth in Jesus' lifetime. For him to be called "Jesus of Nazareth" implies that he was a Nazarene jew. In that time, Pharisees and Sadducees were the two main groups of religious Jews. Hebrew scholars speculate that Jesus was actually from a third sect of Jews - a sect of Jews who were very strict vegetarians and near vegan. The Aramaic word for sea weed, dulse or kelp, was mistranslated to "fish" to suit Medieval Europeans. This is common knowledge among Jewish people. That it's not among Christians borders on blasphemy, but even if you aren't religious, it's certainly disturbing that modern culture has twisted this ancient book to suit their cultural purposes of glorifying McDonald's and factory farming.


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## Forest Nymph

Dragunov said:


> Has anyone who see's eating meat immoral unironically gone hunting or at least grown their own food?


Well it's immoral unironically since animal agriculture is one of the main contributors to starvation in developing countries and is equal to fossil fuels in it's impact on global warming. Even if you're a sociopath who doesn't feel a shred of shame seeing pigs or cattle beaten, caged, tortured in spaces too small for a creature half their size, it's still immoral. But thanks anyway for that cute attempt at being clever.


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## Forest Nymph

Westy365 said:


> I get that—my wife and I have done our best to purge added and processed sugar from our diet. We can't afford to buy the fancy health food stuff we'd like to eat, so we do the best we can by cooking from scratch. We have noticed a difference in the way things taste, and we both agree that a lot of food in America is overly sweetened and makes us feel gross.
> 
> But if I'm going to make a cake, I'm not going to make it out of kale. Cake should taste remotely like cake. You can make it less unhealthy, but I'd rather just not eat cake than to make one that is an "abomination" haha. Kale can be good in some things, but I'm sorry, even after eating healthy for over a year, I don't register _any_ sweet notes from kale. I'd rather just have a savory food with kale in it than to try to eat a kale cake. Dessert should be enjoyed, and should not feel like a punishment (imho).
> 
> Said relative made a smoothie the other day, and I think she used maybe 1 banana in the entire blender, along with avocados, spinach, and kale. No honey, no berries, nothing. It tasted disgusting and bland. It would've been fine if she had just added, I don't know, some FRUIT. She excluded other fruits because "they have sugar."
> 
> My opinion is that natural sugars in the form of berries and fruit are perfectly healthy in moderation. Putting strawberries into a smoothie does not make it unhealthy. Unless one is allergic, has diabetes, or some other health problem, I don't see why berries are a problem. She just takes things to the extreme and she sacrifices seemingly all the flavor in order to be "healthy." She tried one of the smoothies I made once, and she said it was the best she'd ever had. I pretty much just use berries, spinach, bananas, cocoa, milk, and up to 1 tablespoon of honey (I adjust to taste). It just doesn't seem like a difficult skill to master, but then again, maybe cooking/baking/making food just isn't her strength.


Vegans don't bake cakes out of kale either. We eat a lot of delicious foods, and it's truly saddening that people in our culture actually believe that animal flesh contains that much nutrition. It doesn't - there isn't a whole hell of a lot of nutrients in meat, which is why children are told to eat their vegetables and why cereals like Cheerios have to be fortified with vitamins...meat has protein, fat, and calories - the only advantage meat has in any arena is if you are truly starving to death on the Alaskan tundra, it will indeed give you a lot of calories and fat, things we actually have an excess of in the Western first world. There are also plenty of substitutes for milk and eggs. During WWII people didn't eat that many animal products and often made vegan cakes (they didn't call them that but they are vegan) because they didn't buy animal products often due to the war effort. 

Press here for cake.


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## Forest Nymph

Jawz said:


> I'm not looking to debate or argue, but I think some of the attitudes against Veganism are being driven by fear of potential ostracization from large populations in case veganism is adopted as wider morality as a whole.
> 
> I believe that deep down most people know that killing innocent animals for food in this day and age is a lifestyle _choice _rather than an actual _necessity _... Most people know somewhere in their hearts that it is immoral, but since it's harder to accept that one is being immoral, it's easier to _ignore _morality in this lifestyle entirely. We don't think about the animal that is on our plate. We've trained ourselves to simply look at it as an object instead of it being a living thing once.
> 
> (I do accept the "veganism is too expensive" argument however because I've done the math and my wife and I cannot afford a vegan lifestyle at our income levels and so someone making under 30k in the US simply cannot get enough nutrition without eating meat once in a while imo).
> 
> I completely accept that some people look at meat and they see the animal it came from and it makes it unpalatable for them.
> 
> I'm one of those people who willingly accepts that I'm engaged in something immoral every time I eat meat but I'm incapable of changing my lifestyle right now because I have not been able to overcome my desire for meat.
> 
> I think vegans are the ones who have the right ideas and they should be listened to instead of being ridiculed or ignored.


LOLOLOLOL I'm sorry, but the excuse that you can't afford to be vegan is one of the worst ones. Under 30K? Dude, I've been homeless and vegan. Not currently, but a couple of years ago. Beans and rice are one of the cheapest things in the world. Food pantries would love to give you lots of beans, rice, oatmeal, canned vegetables and maybe some fresh produce and bread. Anyone with SNAP/EBT can be vegan, and even mothers with small children and pregnant women on WIC have the option of getting soy milk instead of dairy milk, and can get beans, Cheerios, peanut butter, and fresh veggies with their vouchers. 

I'm sorry, you seem sincere, but come on, if you can work the Internet well enough to post on Personality Cafe, you can work it well enough to look up "vegan on a budget" if you really wanted to. There is actually a woman called Cheap Lazy Vegan who does bulk shopping and meal prep, and there's a lot of resources from the much maligned PETA on how to shop vegan at places like Wal-Mart or get vegan options at Taco Bell.


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## Forest Nymph

I absolutely DO NOT recommend that anyone have a food budget of only 11 dollars a week (even college students spend 25?) but this woman did the 1.50 a day challenge as a vegan just to show she could.

Vegan on a Budget


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## Forest Nymph

Duo said:


> The number of Jains in the U.S., Canada, Europe and other countries equate to less than 300,000 are dwarfed by the 4.5+ million in India and not all the 300K have gone vegan, only the youth movement which doesn't represent the majority, even among Jain youths.
> 
> This is irrelevant to my point, one of how you're attempting to define Jains as vegans, would be inaccurate.
> 
> There's a Jain youth movement in the U.S. that's going vegan but they're only a small portion of the 150,000 in the U.S. and the under 300,000 all over the world besides India.
> 
> I'm pushing my point because people need to understand that you've greatly exaggerated food preferences for Jains and while it appears that you're passionate about your eating preferences, it would be better if you brought facts to the table.
> 
> You do you, I'll continue to consume an omnivorous diet while supporting your right to have your own food preferences but debunking any b/s.


I believe they call what you just did "a red herring." Or perhaps it was "attacking a straw man." 

Even a publication as mainstream as the Independent applauded Jains for their influence on modern vegans: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/who-were-the-world-s-very-earliest-vegans-a7668831.html

I WILL REPEAT MYSELF...their religious retreatists such as Jain monks and nuns, as well similar people in Buddhism and Taoism in China IN THE ANCIENT WORLD were the first "vegans." 

You seem like someone who reads a lot of Wikipedia, watches too much television, and secretly feels guilty that they're flagrantly contributing to animal cruelty and climate change.


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## Forest Nymph

Mammon said:


> Welp, after struggling for a while about eating animals as immoral in this day and age as a first world human being. And after the dream of this cute little white elephant that I held in my hands as an archetype for all animals, I have now concluded I shall continue eating meat. I am disappointed. Some animals live a terrible life and not only that, they'll get slaughtered for food...
> 
> It's truly abhorrently disgusting.
> 
> I hope one day science will be able to lab create all vitamins and such needed for the human body.
> 
> Gambarou, Science-sama
> 
> In the mean time I will try to cook as much as I can without meat and only eat as much meat as I need.



Well then that would be zero. No one needs meat. People live to be very old never having meat in their entire lives. I'm not just talking about vegans, there are vegetarians the world over, every day, not eating meat.

There's nothing meat can give you that any other combination of foods cannot. I'm not sure exactly what you believe you think you're getting from meat. It's mostly fat and calories, of which there is an abundance in the Western world. 

Eating meat is more expensive than being vegetarian or vegan. Meat is one of the most expensive foods you can purchase, unless you eat by-products like cheap hot dogs or Spam, which is basically slaughterhouse waste swept from the killing floor, lots of buttholes and eyeballs and ground up teeth, maybe some nice tumors and a little feces, processed with chemicals to sanitize it, then colored to make it look nice, and pressed into a bizarre shape. Yeah you really "need" that.

I guess it's not your fault that Western television brainwashed you into thinking that there were four food groups or some stupid pyramid you had to eat or you'd die. I mean look around you - people are dying because they're overfed, not underfed. 

It is your fault though that you're an adult and that you are sentient of what it happening, and you also happen to be privileged and educated enough that you found your way to a forum like this, and you are participating in this thread, and you aren't doing the research that is easily accessible to anyone with an 8th grade reading ability in the 21st century English-speaking world.

Spare us the maudlin little show, and go read Dominion by Matthew Scully, or Google "vegan nutrition."


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## Highway Nights

Youtube isn't a source op

I'm not vegan and have no interest in becoming vegan, but you people have got to stop linking to social media to back up your "arguments."


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## Forest Nymph

Mick Travis said:


> In the 80's, a lot of money got poured into media to make America Subservient Again.



I'm quoting this for truth, I really wish people would especially watch that dairy video - I don't really understand it either, when people are "liberal' or consider themselves "intellectual" but they're afraid to find out that maybe big ag lied to them. The same people who will protest big oil and our very own military are suddenly terrified to find out that American agriculture is also a terrible lie that is polluting our water and air, disproportionately polluting the neighborhoods of people of color, as well as causing deforestation, CO2 and methane emissions that directly contribute to climate change, steal food from the mouths of children in developing countries (because their soy and grain is sold to feed our "beef cattle" and other livestock), and ...oh yes...exacting hideous and unbearable cruelty to sentient mammals that rivals any horror movie that is legally allowed to be shown in a theater.


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## Forest Nymph

Rebelgoatalliance said:


> Youtube isn't a source op
> 
> I'm not vegan and have no interest in becoming vegan, but you people have got to stop linking to social media to back up your "arguments."


Noam Chomsky is on YouTube. Is he not a source? There's world news on YouTube. You need to elucidate your argument a bit. I agree with you his sources are trash, but it's not explicitly because it's YouTube.


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## Dragunov

Forest Nymph said:


> Well it's immoral unironically since animal agriculture is one of the main contributors to starvation in developing countries and is equal to fossil fuels in it's impact on global warming. Even if you're a sociopath who doesn't feel a shred of shame seeing pigs or cattle beaten, caged, tortured in spaces too small for a creature half their size, it's still immoral. But thanks anyway for that cute attempt at being clever.


You failed to comprehend my question or just ignored it and addressed a point I didn't make in order to take the virtuous high ground.
You didn't answer the question so I'll ask again.

Have you ever gone hunting or grown your own food?


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## Panorama

The head of the US cardiology is a vegan.. 











I prefer the term plant-based. Vegan is simply too broad and you can drink coke and chips and still call yourself a vegan, so of course veganism can be unhealthy. 

But then there are others who don't see themselves as vegan unless they are 100% animal free in every aspect - they must also have a social-media following of thousands while living a life of globe-trotting luxury while demanding the farmers of Indonesia stop growing palm trees... you see, even a little bit is just not enough! Yet, they remain inherently hypocritical by extreme versions of virtue signalling. 

I guess what I'm saying is that saying things like 'veganism is unhealthy' is kind of like saying buddhism is unhealthy, or atheism is unhealthy, or stoicism is unhealthy... it's a philosophy more than it is a diet, whereas plant-based is all about (mostly) diet and (partly) the ethics of eating other animals, while still remaining functional in societies that see non-animal eaters as suspect.


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## Mick Travis

Dragunov said:


> Have you ever gone hunting


Does playing war games in my youth count?



Dragunov said:


> or grown your own food?


I grew up with a large garden. I've been renting a clay lot, so I grow something in a container each spring. Someday, I hope to have the money, property, and time to build an aquaponics unit. My cats aren't vegetarians yet.


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## Westy365

Forest Nymph said:


> Vegans don't bake cakes out of kale either. We eat a lot of delicious foods, and it's truly saddening that people in our culture actually believe that animal flesh contains that much nutrition. It doesn't - there isn't a whole hell of a lot of nutrients in meat, which is why children are told to eat their vegetables and why cereals like Cheerios have to be fortified with vitamins...meat has protein, fat, and calories - the only advantage meat has in any arena is if you are truly starving to death on the Alaskan tundra, it will indeed give you a lot of calories and fat, things we actually have an excess of in the Western first world. There are also plenty of substitutes for milk and eggs. During WWII people didn't eat that many animal products and often made vegan cakes (they didn't call them that but they are vegan) because they didn't buy animal products often due to the war effort.
> 
> Press here for cake.


Hahaha I understand. There are 3 kinds of vegans: ones that are crazy and overly health-obsessed, ones that are reasonable (like yourself), and ones that give up meat and still eat unhealthy.

The relative I was mentioning was not a vegan or vegetarian, she's just notorious for making "healthy" stuff that tastes bland at best. She's just on another level...
Healthy food is great. 

One problem I've personally encountered when trying to eat meals without meat is that I often feel they are lacking in protein. I'm not attacking vegans/vegetarians, but I'm sincerely curious—how do you overcome this problem? Is there a cheap way to do this? Is there a way to be a bodybuilder and be vegan for cheap (almond milk and protein powder are expensive). The only meals I've had that I don't experience this hunger with are black bean soup and multiple PB&J sandwiches. What inexpensive healthy vegan meals make you feel full? (please share!)


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## Katie Koopa

Being vegan works for some people, but certainly not others. I personally couldn't do it because I'm hypoglycemic and have to eat low carb (I know there are low carb vegan options too, but they're often too expensive on my meager salary, unless someone else wants to pay for my groceries). I did try to be vegetarian a couple of years ago but I was lightheaded and hungry all the time, and I was still living with my dad back then so money wasn't even an issue yet.


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## Persona Maiden

Forest Nymph said:


> If you're actually interested in the history of Judaism you might want to check out the Books of Enoch. Enoch was apparently Noah's grandfather or Noah's great-grandfather (I'm taking this strictly from memory, you can look up the lineage for sure elsewhere if you care but he was a ancestor of Noah). Noah, you know, who G-d appointed as the only righteous man living on Earth, or the only one righteous enough to lead the warning to the sinful people around him that the world would be destroyed by a flood and built an ark. He was also chosen to save all of the animal species on Earth, two by two.
> 
> In the Books of Enoch, meat eating is described as an activity taught to humans by giant demons, along with other unsavory activities like war and seduction. In case you didn't notice, Noah and his family didn't eat animals either and were only allowed to do so because the entire earth and therefore all crops were covered in ocean.
> 
> Later, in Daniel, when Daniel and his men eat vegetables for G-d, they are stronger than the king's men fed on a rich diet of meat and wine. Then in Isaiah, a book well known for it's prediction of the birth of Christ, also describes the future heavenly paradise as being a place of no violence, of obvious vegetarianism, where lions lay down with lambs, there's no bloodshed. It's interesting how many Christians just kind of ....skim over all of this.
> 
> Interestingly, Israel has more vegans now per capita than any other nation currently in existence.
> 
> You should also look into how many early Christians were vegetarian and the admonishments that eating meat didn't matter came from PAUL not Jesus, and he only did so in an attempt to compromise with Romans, people who ate dogs and cats and fed humans to wild animals for entertainment.
> 
> Also, there was no Nazareth in Jesus' lifetime. For him to be called "Jesus of Nazareth" implies that he was a Nazarene jew. In that time, Pharisees and Sadducees were the two main groups of religious Jews. Hebrew scholars speculate that Jesus was actually from a third sect of Jews - a sect of Jews who were very strict vegetarians and near vegan. The Aramaic word for sea weed, dulse or kelp, was mistranslated to "fish" to suit Medieval Europeans. This is common knowledge among Jewish people. That it's not among Christians borders on blasphemy, but even if you aren't religious, it's certainly disturbing that modern culture has twisted this ancient book to suit their cultural purposes of glorifying McDonald's and factory farming.


The book of Enoch is part of the Apocrypha, and is NOT Christian. You might want to check this out: https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/why-66-books/

And they did eat meat in the Bible, God even told them what they could eat after the fall of man:



> Genisis 9:1-3 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. *3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.*





> Matthew 15:10-12 New International Version (NIV)
> 10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”
> 
> 12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
> 
> 13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”


There's more verses here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...icus 11:3,9,21,22; Deuteronomy 14:4-6,9,11,20


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## attic

Westy365 said:


> One problem I've personally encountered when trying to eat meals without meat is that I often feel they are lacking in protein. I'm not attacking vegans/vegetarians, but I'm sincerely curious—how do you overcome this problem? Is there a cheap way to do this? Is there a way to be a bodybuilder and be vegan for cheap (almond milk and protein powder are expensive). The only meals I've had that I don't experience this hunger with are black bean soup and multiple PB&J sandwiches. What inexpensive healthy vegan meals make you feel full? (please share!)


Part of it is getting used to it, it takes a little while for one's body to associate new foodsources with protein. When I have been lazy and not eating enough protein in some days, I don't start to crave meat now, I crave tofu, chickpeas, lentilsoup, and nuts and seeds. Beans and lentils and peas contain quite a lot of carbohydrates, and if not exercising lots you might want to have a larger part of your plate consist of "proteinfoods" than otherwise, so don't just exchange your burger for a chickpeaburger, and have potatoes with it like before, perhaps instead have more peas, and less potatoes. There's also more dense stuff, like texturized soy protein, glutenproducts etc. But those one might want to eat in moderation. One can also add protein where it isn't usually as much in a meatbased diet, like having beans in the dough when baking bread for example, or having just a thin slice of bread with lots of spread made of seeds and beans etc. Have some soyflour in the crust of the pie for dessert and so on and so forth, being inventive. But really, getting enough protein is rarely a problem if you eat varied foods and get enough energy.
inspiration: Patrik Baboumian, vegan strongman and plant based beast
 (less expensive: sunflowerseeds instead of almonds, or peanuts. Buy dry beans and peas and lentils and boil lots and freeze in portionsizes to use later. Lentilsoup(lots of variants, red lentils, green lentils, puy lentils, with vinegar, or garlic or curry, tomatoe or onions or parsley a bit of everyting) and punkstew(beans/peas and whatever you have in the fridge pretty much) are cult poormans veggie-foods, texturized soy protein can be cheap depending on the brand, suggest starting with the kind you use in recepies where one would otherwise use minced meat. Make you own spreads for having on bread, like one out of mixed roasted sunflowerseeds and spiced and oil, or hummus or similar but with beans. Pancakes with soyflour in them. Oatmeal for breakfast with some seeds and nuts on it. Make your own bread with some beans mixed in it. Yellowpeasoup with thyme and mustard...........)







-----------------
As for the thread at large:
I welcome critical questions about nutrition in the vegan diet. It is a relatively new way of eating for a lare group of people and I see it as somewhat experimental, there are still so much we learn about nutrition, plantbased and meatbased. But I don't doubt it will be possible to overcome whatever the vegan diet might lack, like with vitamin b12 that was discovered not so very long ago, and now algeaoils and vitamin k from natto etc (if that is really necessary, I don't know, I would take safe before sorry if being pregnant for example). There is some risks from lack of knowledge with a vegan diet, but so is there in a omnivourous diet (heartdisease etc), and I find it very much worth it, because I am not vegan for my health, but to not torture and kill animals primarily, and for the environment secondarily.


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## Mick Travis

> Genisis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.


Kill em all.








> Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.


Just not weed.


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## Forest Nymph

Dragunov said:


> You failed to comprehend my question or just ignored it and addressed a point I didn't make in order to take the virtuous high ground.
> You didn't answer the question so I'll ask again.
> 
> Have you ever gone hunting or grown your own food?


Why would I go hunting? I understood your question completely, I'm not sure what it has to do with anything. My grandparents grew all of their own vegetables and made their own jam/jelly from home grown grapes. My mother grows vegetables and I have kitchen herb plants. 

Are you implying that someone who grew their own food would automatically eat meat? I have a close friend who I stayed with for a while, and he raised chickens. I obtained all of our food from bulk bins and produce at the local grocery and co-op, and prepared vegan meals for both of us that lasted for days. He is a small farmer by profession, and found that he could not bring himself to kill one of his chickens - so he does eat their eggs, but gives them back the shells, and things like apple cores to make up for any nutrients his taking by eating eggs. He's the most ethical vegetarian I've ever met, as both a vegan and an environmental science educator I found him impressive, and he's exactly who I'd go to live with again during the zombie apocalypse.

Many small farmers in previous eras (and in current times in other countries) were vegetarians, who grew things like corn and peas and squash, and may have gotten milk from a goat or eggs from a family of chickens. You don't have to eat meat even if you grow your own food.

As a vegan, it would be easiest to maintain a vegan diet in a communal farm setting, a larger diverse farm - small farms are easier if you concede to eat eggs or drink milk. But there'd be no need for meat.

Around the turn of the 20th century people ate about 1/3 the meat they do now in America, and drank about 1/2 as much milk. That you would imply a less technologically advanced society necessarily eats more meat is pure comedy to me.

I grew up with relatives who hunted deer, only to learn that deer populations are intentionally overblown to provide sport for hunters. There's no "need" to kill the deer, they actually compensate for deaths in their species by hypergamy in females (this is also seen in human women during times of war) so hunting bucks actually creates more deer. So does killing all the bears and wolves and mountain lions who would naturally feed on them. I know all about this stuff, it's part of what I went to college for.

I also live in an area where I frequently pick my own berries for snacks, have friends who can ID edible plants in our ecosystem easily, and can buy fresh produce from local farmers. I intentionally chose to live in a county where there are no factory farms, the dairy farms that do exist here are small and the cattle roam freely, the whole fairy tale ideal that isn't reality at all in Central California. I had the displeasure of riding past many factory farms on my journey away from Los Angeles.


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## Forest Nymph

Westy365 said:


> Hahaha I understand. There are 3 kinds of vegans: ones that are crazy and overly health-obsessed, ones that are reasonable (like yourself), and ones that give up meat and still eat unhealthy.
> 
> The relative I was mentioning was not a vegan or vegetarian, she's just notorious for making "healthy" stuff that tastes bland at best. She's just on another level...
> Healthy food is great.
> 
> One problem I've personally encountered when trying to eat meals without meat is that I often feel they are lacking in protein. I'm not attacking vegans/vegetarians, but I'm sincerely curious—how do you overcome this problem? Is there a cheap way to do this? Is there a way to be a bodybuilder and be vegan for cheap (almond milk and protein powder are expensive). The only meals I've had that I don't experience this hunger with are black bean soup and multiple PB&J sandwiches. What inexpensive healthy vegan meals make you feel full? (please share!)


That's a very good question! I am female and not a body builder so my diet may differ from yours, but I am active, and I eat extra firm tofu (I can eat a half block in a meal, you may require a whole block) and I use peanut butter not only in PBJ sandwiches, but also in a savory peanut sauce I make for pasta. I have also put peanut butter in oatmeal with maple syrup or soy milk for breakfast. Beans are cheap and versatile, I actually really like lentils because I can make everything with them from dal curries to a filling for tacos or taco salad.

Most vegans will tell you that all food contains protein (it does) and Americans actually eat far too much protein (they do), but I concede that there are people who are very athletic who may actually require more protein. 

A few I can recommend would be No Meat Athlete, Rich Roll, Vegan Gains, and then Men's Health has these dudes:

https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a19535559/vegan-bodybuilders-instagram/

Just FYI, the only male weight lifter to make it to the Olympics in 2016 to represent the U.S. was vegan Kendrick Farris!


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## Forest Nymph

Katie Koopa said:


> Being vegan works for some people, but certainly not others. I personally couldn't do it because I'm hypoglycemic and have to eat low carb (I know there are low carb vegan options too, but they're often too expensive on my meager salary, unless someone else wants to pay for my groceries). I did try to be vegetarian a couple of years ago but I was lightheaded and hungry all the time, and I was still living with my dad back then so money wasn't even an issue yet.


There are low-carb vegans. You should watch Forks Over Knives, there are people on there with full-blown diabetes not just hypoglycemia.


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## Forest Nymph

Persona Maiden said:


> The book of Enoch is part of the Apocrypha, and is NOT Christian. You might want to check this out: https://answersingenesis.org/the-word-of-god/why-66-books/
> 
> And they did eat meat in the Bible, God even told them what they could eat after the fall of man:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's more verses here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...icus 11:3,9,21,22; Deuteronomy 14:4-6,9,11,20


Oh wow Catholics aren't Christian, that's really a nice thing for you to say! Also, I was talking about Jewish people, and the same Bible that you read, and you're just kind of ....pretending I didn't say those things? Have you read Daniel or Isaiah? You are aware Jesus was a Jew? 

As I said before, G-d allowed Noah's family to eat animals in a very particular catastrophic circumstance, when they couldn't have possibly farmed or foraged. 

Later, major serious laws were laid down about how Jewish people were to treat animals. That's why Jews don't eat milk and meat together, and why there's kosher and non-kashrut meats, because Jews hate animal torture as a general rule, there are constant references to animal cruelty in the Bible, and kashrut/kosher was intended for both health reasons and also to promote humane treatment of animals.

You can't get away from the fact that in the Garden of Eden, the original ideal was vegan, and in Isaiah the future paradise is described as at least being vegetarian. The evidence that Torah scholars have for Jesus probably having actually been vegetarian makes a whole lot of sense to me as well. 

I have a great book for you. It's called Dominion by Matthew Scully. I am not even a conservative and I think this man just has it all figured out, his arguments are flawless and he knows his Bible (likely better than you do, would be my guess, since he's a writer by profession as well as being a conservative Catholic).

I'm also really surprised that someone who considers themselves an INFJ takes that verse from Matthew so literally. .Right, what is in the heart is what defiles. The violence towards animals is what defiles you, not the natural instinct you have to eat or ignorant cultural eating habits. If what is in your heart is "I can abuse animals any way I want because I'm a person" I can reassure you, you're defiled.


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## Persona Maiden

Forest Nymph said:


> Oh wow Catholics aren't Christian, that's really a nice thing for you to say! Also, I was talking about Jewish people, and the same Bible that you read, and you're just kind of ....pretending I didn't say those things? Have you read Daniel or Isaiah? You are aware Jesus was a Jew?
> 
> As I said before, G-d allowed Noah's family to eat animals in a very particular catastrophic circumstance, when they couldn't have possibly farmed or foraged.
> 
> Later, major serious laws were laid down about how Jewish people were to treat animals. That's why Jews don't eat milk and meat together, and why there's kosher and non-kashrut meats, because Jews hate animal torture as a general rule, there are constant references to animal cruelty in the Bible, and kashrut/kosher was intended for both health reasons and also to promote humane treatment of animals.
> 
> You can't get away from the fact that in the Garden of Eden, the original ideal was vegan, and in Isaiah the future paradise is described as at least being vegetarian. The evidence that Torah scholars have for Jesus probably having actually been vegetarian makes a whole lot of sense to me as well.
> 
> I have a great book for you. It's called Dominion by Matthew Scully. I am not even a conservative and I think this man just has it all figured out, his arguments are flawless and he knows his Bible (likely better than you do, would be my guess, since he's a writer by profession as well as being a conservative Catholic).
> 
> I'm also really surprised that someone who considers themselves an INFJ takes that verse from Matthew so literally. .Right, what is in the heart is what defiles. The violence towards animals is what defiles you, not the natural instinct you have to eat or ignorant cultural eating habits. If what is in your heart is "I can abuse animals any way I want because I'm a person" I can reassure you, you're defiled.


Catholics aren't Christian, they have some beliefs that are similar, but they are not the same. There are many things Catholics do that Christians do not, we do not have Priests, rosaries, have all the Hail Mary rituals, and we don't hold the Virgin Mary up like a major figure, etc, so that's just the truth. I'm not saying a Christian cannot exist in Catholicism, but that aren't the same.

I'm very aware Jesus was Jewish, and again People ate meat through out the Bible, they had lamb on Passover, ate fish many times.



> Proverbs 27:26-27
> 26 the lambs will provide you with clothing,
> and the goats with the price of a field.
> 27 You will have plenty of goats’ milk to feed your family
> and to nourish your female servants.





> Exodus 12:20-22
> 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread.”
> 
> 21 Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. 22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning.





> John 21:4-8
> 4 Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.
> 
> 5 He called out to them, “Friends, haven’t you any fish?”
> 
> “No,” they answered.
> 
> 6 He said, “Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.
> 
> 7 Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, “It is the Lord,” he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. 8 The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.[a]


Also, God DID allow people to have meat after Noah and his family, there is a whole chapter in Leviticus.



> Leviticus 11
> Clean and Unclean Food
> 11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.
> 
> 4 “‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you. 5 The hyrax, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you. 6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you. 7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
> 
> 9 “‘Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams you may eat any that have fins and scales. 10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean. 11 And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean. 12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be regarded as unclean by you.
> 
> 13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
> 
> 20 “‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you. 21 There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean.
> 
> 24 “‘You will make yourselves unclean by these; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 25 Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening.
> 
> 26 “‘Every animal that does not have a divided hoof or that does not chew the cud is unclean for you; whoever touches the carcass of any of them will be unclean. 27 Of all the animals that walk on all fours, those that walk on their paws are unclean for you; whoever touches their carcasses will be unclean till evening. 28 Anyone who picks up their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening. These animals are unclean for you.
> 
> 29 “‘Of the animals that move along the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, 30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. 31 Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food you are allowed to eat that has come into contact with water from any such pot is unclean, and any liquid that is drunk from such a pot is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. 36 A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. 37 If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. 38 But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.
> 
> 39 “‘If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches its carcass will be unclean till evening. 40 Anyone who eats some of its carcass must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening.
> 
> 41 “‘Every creature that moves along the ground is to be regarded as unclean; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves along the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is unclean. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. 45 I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
> 
> 46 “‘These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves about in the water and every creature that moves along the ground. 47 You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.’”


Also don't forget all of the animal sacrifice in the Old Testament to atone for sin before Jesus. There's many verses in books like Leviticus.

As for the book, I'll look into it, though I don't believe just because someone is a writer, means they know more.

I do agree the Garden of Eden was at least vegetarian (don't recall it saying anything on whether it was vegan or vegetarian, could have been ether), but that was BEFORE the fall, and in Heaven, it will probably be that way again. But we live in a fallen world, nothing is how it should be, this world is essentially broken because of sin. Also, I'm not an INFJ, I'm an INFP, I have never claimed to be an INFJ, I don't know where you came up with the INFJ.

I don't condone abusing animals, but I have nothing against eating them ether. God allowed them to be used for food, If he has no issue with it nether do I. Though I do oppose the abuse of animals to be eaten, just because their to be food. It's still warranted to treat animal to be used for food with respect, because it is a living creature, and in the Bible they took good care of their animals, even the ones to be eaten. 

Animals are supose to be taken care of, but they are not to be place at or above people, that borders into worshiping the creation over the Creator, which is a sin. 



> Romans 1:24-25
> 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


I take the parts of the Bible literal that are suppose to be, within the context of the book. Some are historical, some are poetry, some are prophetic.

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/why-do-you-take-the-bible-literally/


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## Forest Nymph

Persona Maiden said:


> Catholics aren't Christian, they have some beliefs that are similar, but they are not the same. There are many things Catholics do that Christians do not, we do not have Priests, rosaries, have all the Hail Mary rituals, and we don't hold the Virgin Mary up like a major figure, etc, so that's just the truth. I'm not saying a Christian cannot exist in Catholicism, but that aren't the same.
> 
> I'm very aware Jesus was Jewish, and again People ate meat through out the Bible, they had lamb on Passover, ate fish many times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, God DID allow people to have meat after Noah and his family, there is a whole chapter in Leviticus.
> 
> 
> 
> Also don't forget all of the animal sacrifice in the Old Testament to atone for sin before Jesus. There's many verses in books like Leviticus.
> 
> As for the book, I'll look into it, though I don't believe just because someone is a writer, means they know more.
> 
> I do agree the Garden of Eden was at least vegetarian (don't recall it saying anything on whether it was vegan or vegetarian, could have been ether), but that was BEFORE the fall, and in Heaven, it will probably be that way again. But we live in a fallen world, nothing is how it should be, this world is essentially broken because of sin. Also, I'm not an INFJ, I'm an INFP, I have never claimed to be an INFJ, I don't know where you came up with the INFJ.
> 
> I don't condone abusing animals, but I have nothing against eating them ether. God allowed them to be used for food, If he has no issue with it nether do I. Though I do oppose the abuse of animals to be eaten, just because their to be food. It's still warranted to treat animal to be used for food with respect, because it is a living creature, and in the Bible they took good care of their animals, even the ones to be eaten.
> 
> Animals are supose to be taken care of, but they are not to be place at or above people, that borders into worshiping the creation over the Creator, which is a sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take the parts of the Bible literal that are suppose to be, within the context of the book. Some are historical, some are poetry, some are prophetic.
> 
> https://answersingenesis.org/bible-questions/why-do-you-take-the-bible-literally/


This isn't a religion thread and you lost me at "Catholics aren't Christians." Enjoy your narrow world view.


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## Persona Maiden

Forest Nymph said:


> This isn't a religion thread and you lost me at "Catholics aren't Christians." Enjoy your narrow world view.


A.K.A, you have nothing to come back with to the debate that YOU were the one that started, and I DID Address the dietary issue, but since I get the feeling your not even reading my posts (since you can't even get my type right), and just want to argue, I supose it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## Forest Nymph

Persona Maiden said:


> A.K.A, you have nothing to come back with to the debate that YOU were the one that started, and I DID Address the dietary issue, but since I get the feeling your not even reading my posts (since you can't even get my type right), and just want to argue, I supose it doesn't matter anyway.


I have a lot to come back with, but they're things that would just go over your head. Frankly you seem profoundly ignorant, like someone raised in a Mormon commune or in the backwoods sticks in a Pentecostal church ...the fact that you think Catholics aren't Christians and that the Jewish interpretation of scripture isn't worth your attention as a Christian is so stupidly arrogant I can't even begin to think of what might be a good topic that might be on your level.

You appear to still be at the stage where you go to Bible school and learn to sing songs and make crafts and follow directions, though ostensibly you're a rational adult. Honestly? When I told you all of those things about the Israeli interpretation of scripture and the history of Christianity, I thought we might have an interesting discussion - instead, you reacted with the religious version of "hurr duurrrr."

I wasn't even as blockheaded about philosophy and faith when I was fourteen or fifteen, and I was raised conservative Christian in the deep South. I don't know how to even begin to relate to someone like you, other than to recommend you read a book by a conservative Christian whose IQ is probably double yours.


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## Persona Maiden

Forest Nymph said:


> I have a lot to come back with, but they're things that would just go over your head. Frankly you seem profoundly ignorant, like someone raised in a Mormon commune or in the backwoods sticks in a Pentecostal church ...the fact that you think Catholics aren't Christians and that the Jewish interpretation of scripture isn't worth your attention as a Christian is so stupidly arrogant I can't even begin to think of what might be a good topic that might be on your level.
> 
> You appear to still be at the stage where you go to Bible school and learn to sing songs and make crafts and follow directions, though ostensibly you're a rational adult. Honestly? When I told you all of those things about the Israeli interpretation of scripture and the history of Christianity, I thought we might have an interesting discussion - instead, you reacted with the religious version of "hurr duurrrr."
> 
> I wasn't even as blockheaded about philosophy and faith when I was fourteen or fifteen, and I was raised conservative Christian in the deep South. I don't know how to even begin to relate to someone like you, other than to recommend you read a book by a conservative Christian whose IQ is probably double yours.
> 
> View attachment 810053


First off, you don't need to attack me as a person, you know nothing about me, I am not Mormon, I am a Non denominational Christian.

2. Catholicism is a separate religion, I never said Catholics could not be Christian, but they have many differences, there not the same, otherwise they would just be called Christian. I never said I disagreed with Jewish scripture, the Torah is just the first 5 books of the Bible, and I also quoted many scriptures that proved people ate meat after Noah. Are you just going to ignore Chapter 11 of Leviticus? 

Your awfully judgmental, simply because what? I gave Biblical proof, which you have had many opportunities to do yourself, but all you've done is recommend a book, personally, I'll trust Scripture first.

Not only is your response very childish, lacking any adult tone, but it's very dismissive without addressing any of the points I made, and doing nothing to helping anyone understand your argument. I would love to have an interesting discussion, but you completely dismissed me without even trying to address anything I wrote, which I had at least been doing for you, you seem unwilling to entertain anything which you deem irreverent, regardless of content, which I did for you, even if I don't agree, which is coming off as rather intolerant.


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## Dragunov

Forest Nymph said:


> Why would I go hunting? I understood your question completely, I'm not sure what it has to do with anything. My grandparents grew all of their own vegetables and made their own jam/jelly from home grown grapes. My mother grows vegetables and I have kitchen herb plants.
> 
> Are you implying that someone who grew their own food would automatically eat meat? I have a close friend who I stayed with for a while, and he raised chickens. I obtained all of our food from bulk bins and produce at the local grocery and co-op, and prepared vegan meals for both of us that lasted for days. He is a small farmer by profession, and found that he could not bring himself to kill one of his chickens - so he does eat their eggs, but gives them back the shells, and things like apple cores to make up for any nutrients his taking by eating eggs. He's the most ethical vegetarian I've ever met, as both a vegan and an environmental science educator I found him impressive, and he's exactly who I'd go to live with again during the zombie apocalypse.
> 
> Many small farmers in previous eras (and in current times in other countries) were vegetarians, who grew things like corn and peas and squash, and may have gotten milk from a goat or eggs from a family of chickens. You don't have to eat meat even if you grow your own food.
> 
> As a vegan, it would be easiest to maintain a vegan diet in a communal farm setting, a larger diverse farm - small farms are easier if you concede to eat eggs or drink milk. But there'd be no need for meat.
> 
> Around the turn of the 20th century people ate about 1/3 the meat they do now in America, and drank about 1/2 as much milk. That you would imply a less technologically advanced society necessarily eats more meat is pure comedy to me.
> 
> I grew up with relatives who hunted deer, only to learn that deer populations are intentionally overblown to provide sport for hunters. There's no "need" to kill the deer, they actually compensate for deaths in their species by hypergamy in females (this is also seen in human women during times of war) so hunting bucks actually creates more deer. So does killing all the bears and wolves and mountain lions who would naturally feed on them. I know all about this stuff, it's part of what I went to college for.
> 
> I also live in an area where I frequently pick my own berries for snacks, have friends who can ID edible plants in our ecosystem easily, and can buy fresh produce from local farmers. I intentionally chose to live in a county where there are no factory farms, the dairy farms that do exist here are small and the cattle roam freely, the whole fairy tale ideal that isn't reality at all in Central California. I had the displeasure of riding past many factory farms on my journey away from Los Angeles.


I'm saying that in the process of growing your own food, you have to stop other animals from consuming it. How do you go about doing this?

When you build farm land for that communal farm of yours, what gets displaced and what do you have to keep away?

You seem to be bringing in irrelevant information, claiming that its what i'm supporting, then refuting it.

I don't support factory farming but I also acknowledge that feeding 7.5 billion people is no easy task.

I bring up hunting because it gives new found respect to nature, animals and waste. Once you realize you are part of it, consuming animals doesn't feel wrong, you feel grateful.

I dont see what relevance your deer statistics have here, also im not talking about sport hunters who shoot on the back of atv's.

I can understand your backlash against factory farming I'm no fan of it either but no matter how you cut it, life consumes life.

What separates plants? Is it there inability to express pain in a humanly conceivable way?


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## Forest Nymph

Panorama said:


> The head of the US cardiology is a vegan..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer the term plant-based. Vegan is simply too broad and you can drink coke and chips and still call yourself a vegan, so of course veganism can be unhealthy.
> 
> But then there are others who don't see themselves as vegan unless they are 100% animal free in every aspect - they must also have a social-media following of thousands while living a life of globe-trotting luxury while demanding the farmers of Indonesia stop growing palm trees... you see, even a little bit is just not enough! Yet, they remain inherently hypocritical by extreme versions of virtue signalling.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that saying things like 'veganism is unhealthy' is kind of like saying buddhism is unhealthy, or atheism is unhealthy, or stoicism is unhealthy... it's a philosophy more than it is a diet, whereas plant-based is all about (mostly) diet and (partly) the ethics of eating other animals, while still remaining functional in societies that see non-animal eaters as suspect.


You are absolutely right, I think your post is a great addition to this thread! I love how you compare vegans to atheists and Buddhists, and yet clarify that plant-based diets can be very healthy and that the head of US cardiology is vegan! Hooray! 

Obviously the ideal is to be BOTH...but there are people who are vegan for philosophical reasons who are unhealthy or even say they "fail" because they ate a bunch of Oreos and ramen ( I do eat ramen sometimes but not exclusively) ...one of the most frustrating things for me as a vegan are these people, actually, because they claim their own failure had something to do with the vegan philosophy as a whole, or plant-based diets (when they obviously weren't eating balanced whole foods) and it's one of the most hurtful things to the vegan movement (if you regard it as a philosophy as I do) that those people make us look bad, more or less. Yesssss they're technically vegan, and that's fine if they're seventeen and we can guide them to a better path, but it's worse if they're 25 and go around saying all veganism is terrible (like the OP) because they ate a diet of nothing but carrots and apple juice, or if they felt sick after six months of living off of potato chips, vegan cheez pizzas, and Apple Jacks. 

I welcome your healthy, robust addition to this conversation, I think it's absolutely valid and truth telling.

It also begs the question: who did more for the animals, Phil Collins becoming vegan at 60, or Peter Gabriel being a lacto-ovo vegetarian for 40 years? Obviously the end goal is vegan, but someone who is vegetarian for 40 years (and possibly 20 more) causes overall less harm to animals that someone who goes "vegan" ten years before they die in old age. That being said, any time is a good time to stop eating meat. I was listening to a Paula Cole song tonight where she says her grandmother went vegetarian at 83 and did not die until 96...thirteen years of a person's life is significant. I thought it was actually very touching that she wrote a song talking about this.


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## Forest Nymph

Dragunov said:


> I'm saying that in the process of growing your own food, you have to stop other animals from consuming it. How do you go about doing this?
> 
> When you build farm land for that communal farm of yours, what gets displaced and what do you have to keep away?
> 
> You seem to be bringing in irrelevant information, claiming that its what i'm supporting, then refuting it.
> 
> I don't support factory farming but I also acknowledge that feeding 7.5 billion people is no easy task.
> 
> I bring up hunting because it gives new found respect to nature, animals and waste. Once you realize you are part of it, consuming animals doesn't feel wrong, you feel grateful.
> 
> I dont see what relevance your deer statistics have here, also im not talking about sport hunters who shoot on the back of atv's.
> 
> I can understand your backlash against factory farming I'm no fan of it either but no matter how you cut it, life consumes life.
> 
> What separates plants? Is it there inability to express pain in a humanly conceivable way?


Well since I studied environmental science and live in the state of California, I'm actually LEGALLY REQUIRED to deploy NON-LETHAL methods of keeping wild animals away from my crops. 

Allow me to teach you: there are all sorts of lovely new technologies! Sensor motion lights, sensor sprinklers, loud alarms, both barbed and electric fencing, keeping your goats or chickens inside at night instead of leaving them vulnerable to predators, protective dogs or llamas (yes llamas, I know a professional goat dairy farm that employs llamas and they've had a goat dairy farm since like 1907). In fact, in the state of California, if you can't prove you have done all of these things (and possibly more) you will be fined or imprisoned for killing wildlife. *happy smile*

You acknowledge that feeding 8 or 9 billion people is no easy task. What if I told you we could solve global hunger right this second if everyone went vegan? 

Hunting doesn't have to give me a "newfound respect" for animals, nature and waste because I already have them without hunting. I grew up on a vegetable farm in West Virginia and have a bachelor's of science in Environmental Sciences. I am very fortunate that I have the sort of brain where I don't have to kill things to understand ecosystems, the life cycle, and appreciate nature.

What separates plants is that they aren't sentient. Sentience is a huge factor in vegan philosophy, though like my Native American friends, I still show great respect to my plants, and to the trees in the forest around me, because I respect all life, I just understand that animal life experiences suffering in a way much more similar to my own.


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## Mick Travis

Mr. X said:


> It's always ironic that vegans are promoted as bad guys and accused of throwing ideology in others faces, but go on a vegan diet yourself and mention to others, the first responses will always be people announcing, "Oh my god, I love meat so much, it's so good. I cant live without meat." Many people who are vegan or vegetarian don't even want to mention it to others, because they have to go through this same routine.


lol


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## Mick Travis

pwowq said:


> Everything in your supermarket aisle is INDUSTRIAL and unnatural, most likely non-ecological.


Thank you for your support.


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## ShashaCruz

I am vegetarian and everyone knows. is personal choice. nobody ever downed me about my choice. I oppose murdering animals for food


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## Panorama

ShashaCruz said:


> I am vegetarian and everyone knows. is personal choice. nobody ever downed me about my choice. I oppose murdering animals for food


My experiences have been different. As a male who has worked and lived around other men for quite some time it was only when I began to question the idea of eating meat that I saw how much of a social obsession it actually was. I came at it initially from an ethical view in that we should not abuse those who are less intelligent than ourselves - just as we cannot dismiss non-human animals simply because they are not human. For me it boiled down to my own personal values versus those that are socially ingrained and often required in order to be part of the 'in groups', so early on many years ago I paid a price for it and sometimes still do. 

It's because of this that I think everyone should at least see what it is like to try living without non-human animal meat in their diet, to see that it is not as 'critical' to their existence as they claim. It can be an eye opening experience and may change their views on other things as well. Of course some people will always want to eat animal meat for whatever trumped up excuse they can muster, but in the end the future will see the mass slaughter of animals for our consumption as barbaric and inhumane, just as we look back at our past and realize not all that was done was right, some people are just destined to be on the wrong side of history.. So hopefully by doing this, even for a short time, they can learn to appreciate all species and lifeforms in a more compassionate way as part of a greater existence, one that doesn't seek to see the very destruction of everything that isn't human and cute..


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## ShashaCruz

@Panoram Excellent narrative on improving humanity and respecting other life forms. Meat causes many health issues such as obesity, heart failure etc.


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## Forest Nymph

pwowq said:


> Eat whatever you want. You'll ruin the earth anyway. Example:
> Featuring our fav fruit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything in your supermarket aisle is INDUSTRIAL and unnatural, most likely non-ecological.


You actually raise a very interesting point and since my background is in environmental science, I like to stay abreast of topics about agriculture and I agree with you that most things in the supermarket aisle are industrial and unnatural. Veganism is actually a strong reaction to the wrongs of industrialization, including factory farming, so ironically you're on to something and probably didn't even know it. 

There is no diet that includes meat that is agriculturally sustainable. The only real hope for ending the problem, due to ignorance, apathy and culture, is to just create laws to shut down factory farming and put a carbon tax on meat, which will naturally make animal flesh so expensive most people won't be able to afford it, just like in the good old days, before the industrial revolution. This would dramatically decrease greenhouse gas emissions, as well as air and water pollution, not to mention land waste. 

However, a vegan diet that is primarily based upon synthetic products is no more sustainable than being a lacto-vegetarian. In fact, while the most sustainable diet is a whole foods, locally sourced vegan diet, if a vegan consistently eats a lot of processed products rather than whole foods, it would actually be better to be a lacto-vegetarian, particularly a lacto-vegetarian who eats goat dairy rather than products from cow's milk.

You are wrong when you say "eat whatever you want, you'll ruin the earth anyway." That's the equivalent of saying that you're going to poison yourself slowly with cyanide because everyone dies anyway. Exaggerating isn't a rational way to make life decisions.


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## IDontThinkSo

People can't escape the perception of their banality anymore so now they adopt political stances only to feel special and useful without talent and effort. Especially an issue when you wanna live the murican dream. It's all about saving their self esteem. They're not intellectually committed enough to go in a lab and find a solution against pollution or bring any real solution to the table. Just want to feel good at the end of a normal day of their normal life. Finding enemies who are easy to fight with easy ideas. They're generally satisfied when it allows them to feel morally superior to their parents, their neighbor, their boss... Veganism is one of those ideas. Cultivation will save the Earth! Killing animals for food is murder! ....Not. But it surely allows you to argue victoriously with your dumb neighbor.


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## Mick Travis

IDontThinkSo said:


> People can't escape the perception of their banality anymore so now they adopt political stances only to feel special and useful without talent and effort. Especially an issue when you wanna live the murican dream. It's all about saving their self esteem. They're not intellectually committed enough to go in a lab and find a solution against pollution or bring any real solution to the table. Just want to feel good at the end of a normal day of their normal life. Finding enemies who are easy to fight with easy ideas. They're generally satisfied when it allows them to feel morally superior to their parents, their neighbor, their boss... Veganism is one of those ideas. Cultivation will save the Earth! Killing animals for food is murder! ....Not. But it surely allows you to argue victoriously with your dumb neighbor.


I haven't met any centrists posing as left wingers. I wouldn't mind if they paid lip service. We need all the help we can get to counter the right wing voices. Thanks to your information, I'm now hoping communal living becomes popular with the centrists. Centrists work so close to right wingers, they tend to have money.


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## IDontThinkSo

@*Mick Travis* Centrism is the modern politically correct term for right-winged populism. Their rhetoric is to pretend that populism lies at the ends of the rope, far away from them, self-proclaimed center. There is no shades of right, only shades of wrong and corruption. No happy medium in the middle of the rope, only fallacies of relative privation and ad temperantiam in order to punish legitimate defense against minor crimes and corruption. Centrists are moderately corruptible and that's the only stupid thing that is moderate about them. The corruptible always turn nasty. No amount of veganism will make up for their trashy morals.


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## Mick Travis

IDontThinkSo said:


> @*Mick Travis* Centrism is the modern politically correct term for right-winged populism. Their rhetoric is to pretend that populism lies at the ends of the rope, far away from them, self-proclaimed center. There is no shades of right, only shades of wrong and corruption. No happy medium in the middle of the rope, only fallacies of relative privation and ad temperantiam in order to punish legitimate defense against minor crimes and corruption. Centrists are moderately corruptible and that's the only stupid thing that is moderate about them. The corruptible always turn nasty. No amount of veganism will make up for their trashy morals.


I agree with you. I have independently come to my conclusions, and the political compass always puts me to the extreme left. It also puts me down as *half* libertarian. Without regulations, the selfish people you mentioned will take advantage of the ignorant.


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## Mick Travis

View attachment 812513




Forest Nymph said:


> exacting hideous and unbearable cruelty to sentient mammals that rivals any horror movie that is legally allowed to be shown in a theater.


I will respectfully refrain from posting slaughterhouse videos.


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## Forest Nymph

Mick Travis said:


> View attachment 812513
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will respectfully refrain from posting slaughterhouse videos.


Thank you for sharing that cartoon video, it's perfect. I especially love the end because the sort of person who continues to justify such behavior always seems to strangely suffer from a delusion that we can colonize Mars within their lifetime.


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## Mick Travis




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## pwowq

Forest Nymph said:


> Veganism is actually a strong reaction to the wrongs of industrialization, including factory farming, so ironically you're on to something and probably didn't even know it.


To only focus on the damage industrial meat production does is unfair towards all the damage all industrial agriculture cause.
Can the Aral Lake still be seen on maps? (barely)



Forest Nymph said:


> There is no diet that includes meat that is agriculturally sustainable.


There is. You can't find it in cattle ranges in Ireland, Brazil or Germany. It can be found in places where specific farm animals is the only way to use the energy stored in the plants humans can't eat, places where eadible plants can't be grown. Usually these places are fairly cold and can't provide vegan alternatives thru a whole year.



Forest Nymph said:


> You are wrong when you say "eat whatever you want, you'll ruin the earth anyway." That's the equivalent of saying that you're going to poison yourself slowly with cyanide because everyone dies anyway. Exaggerating isn't a rational way to make life decisions.


By simply existing as a human being you're detremental to the health of the natural world. It doesn't matter what you do, nature will be hurt by you. 

Now, I don't live to save 'the earth'. I want humanity to prosper and develop into an intergallactic species. We need an earth that suits our needs but it seems we're kinda screwing that part up more and more.


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## soop

ShashaCruz said:


> @Panoram Excellent narrative on improving humanity and respecting other life forms. Meat causes many health issues such as obesity, heart failure etc.


Meat doesn't cause obesity or heart failure. Processed foods some of which contain animal products surely do though.


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## ShashaCruz

@soop where did you get your medical degree? get your money back if they taught that falsehood


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## soop

ShashaCruz said:


> @soop where did you get your medical degree? get your money back if they taught that falsehood


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority


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## Zeta 97

ShashaCruz said:


> @soop where did you get your medical degree? get your money back if they taught that falsehood


I back this! If you would like me to give you the scientific breakdown as to why meat causes high blood cholesterol (LDL) and increase your chances for chronic diseases such as heart disease, high blood pressure and obesity, I will do so with pleasure. But in saying that yes processed foods are also a contributor (depending on what processed foods we are talking about ) cause many processed foods are actually pretty healthy .


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## soop

Zeta 97 said:


> I back this! If you would like me to give you the scientific breakdown as to why meat causes high blood cholesterol (LDL) and increase your chances for chronic diseases such as heart disease, high blood pressure and obesity, I will do so with pleasure. But in saying that yes processed foods are also a contributor (depending on what processed foods we are talking about ) cause many processed foods are actually pretty healthy .


You "backing" someone's logical fallacy laden attack has no relevance to the facts of the situation...but since I'm here...

I never said eating cholesterol doesn't have any effect on your LDL cholesterol, I said meat doesn't cause obesity or heart failure (and it doesn't cause any of the other issues you mentioned either), if you don't understand this nuance you probably also don't understand the science you are attempting to use to prove your point.

Since no one else seems in the mood to post sources, Ill post this, he explains it better than I ever could.









Theres 90 minutes of info here, so have fun with that. I sure did.


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## crazitaco

From what I've read over the years, a lot of people do fine on a vegan diet. However some people don't. Vegans will claim that anyone can do it, and those who become ill are just "doing it wrong" and anti-vegans will often claim veganism is inherently unhealthy. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I'm not vegan because I think its pointless. I believe that what is best for humans and what is best for non-humans are inherently in conflict, and for that reason we will never be able to ethically coexist with the animal world unless we as a species choose to reduce our population to fit with the global ecosystem. And i don't see that ever happening, even vegans get all pissy if you question the ethics of bringing people onto the earth. Vegans, at some point the ideology is faced with the ethical dillema to pick between reducing human suffering or reducing non-human suffering.


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## Mange

I never understood how people could be vehemently non vegan. YEAH I EAT MEAT YOU BIG PUSSY. IM A MAN! MURICAAAAA

like ok bro who is clearly insecure about his 4.5 inch member so you gotta eat 12 steaks a day, drive a lifted truck, tell everyone you're a marine, and brag about being a GUN OWNIN AMERICAN


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## Ardielley

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> From what I've read over the years, a lot of people do fine on a vegan diet. However some people don't. Vegans will claim that anyone can do it, and those who become ill are just "doing it wrong" and anti-vegans will often claim veganism is inherently unhealthy. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Personally, I'm not vegan because I think its pointless. I believe that what is best for humans and what is best for non-humans are inherently in conflict, and for that reason we will never be able to ethically coexist with the animal world unless we as a species choose to reduce our population to fit with the global ecosystem. And i don't see that ever happening, even vegans get all pissy if you question the ethics of bringing people onto the earth. Vegans, at some point the ideology is faced with the ethical dillema to pick between reducing human suffering or reducing non-human suffering.


Do I think there are some people who can't successfully be vegan? Perhaps. But I think a lot more just aren't interested in trying hard enough, which is understandable since from an outside perspective, being vegan looks difficult. From my experience, though, it requires minimal effort. I think if you're committed to the philosophy behind it, you have much more incentive to stick it out.

I don't see being vegan as pointless, much like how I don't see voting in elections as pointless. On your own, you might not have much impact, but as the saying goes, an avalanche can't exist without the individual snowflakes making it up. And society IS changing. We're seeing more and more vegan options all the time in restaurants and grocery stores, not to mention the increased publicity veganism is seeing on different forms of media.

However, even if vegans made no difference, I would still be vegan because I see it as the right thing to do. A lot of times, people don't change because they believe that doing so is futile. That's not just a self-defeating mindset -- it's also a self-fulfilling one. You don't change because you don't think anything will change... but things aren't changing because _people_ aren't... the same people who think they can't make a difference. The world would be a much better place if we could drop this mindset and just do what we think is right regardless.


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## soop

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> From what I've read over the years, a lot of people do fine on a vegan diet. However some people don't. Vegans will claim that anyone can do it, and those who become ill are just "doing it wrong" and anti-vegans will often claim veganism is inherently unhealthy. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


Thank you. It's almost like people don't realize that different people have different reactions to food. There is nothing controversial about saying "I'm lactose intolerant" but suddenly when someone says that they got severe IBS on a vegan diet and could not cure it without eating animal products they're either a liar, they did it wrong, or they were never vegan and didn't want it bad enough.  

Its wrong too for people to say its impossible to be healthy on a vegan diet, I think it's possible, but its not as easy as some people would have you believe, and for some people I don't think its possible at all.

And by the way, my timeframe here is not 4 months, 2 years, or all through collage. Its a lifetime.


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## Denature

Humans evolved eating meat. Surely nothing could go wrong by cutting it out completely.

I wonder what effect being a vegan has on testosterone levels in men.


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## Forest Nymph

pwowq said:


> To only focus on the damage industrial meat production does is unfair towards all the damage all industrial agriculture cause.
> Can the Aral Lake still be seen on maps? (barely)
> 
> 
> There is. You can't find it in cattle ranges in Ireland, Brazil or Germany. It can be found in places where specific farm animals is the only way to use the energy stored in the plants humans can't eat, places where eadible plants can't be grown. Usually these places are fairly cold and can't provide vegan alternatives thru a whole year.
> 
> 
> By simply existing as a human being you're detremental to the health of the natural world. It doesn't matter what you do, nature will be hurt by you.
> 
> Now, I don't live to save 'the earth'. I want humanity to prosper and develop into an intergallactic species. We need an earth that suits our needs but it seems we're kinda screwing that part up more and more.


Animal agriculture does significantly more damage. This is not my personal opinion, it is a fact backed by numerous studies. Animal agriculture is more harmful to the environment than even being a vegan who eats processed foods shipped from another state. If we wiped out animal agriculture, only 2% of our planet's land would be needed for farming. At present 45% of the earth is covered with farms which is atrocious and is why Phys.org predicted animal agriculture to outpace fossil fuels in emissions and overall environmental harm soon. 

Oh and just stop with the stupid "being alive harms the earth." There are cultures and ways of life much more sustainable than others. Ecosystems depend on the cycle of life and death but 99 percent of Western people live nowhere near the "circle of life" they're so fond of using for an excuse to eat farmed animals and destroy the earth at an exaggerated pace.


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## Forest Nymph

Denature said:


> Humans evolved eating meat. Surely nothing could go wrong by cutting it out completely.
> 
> I wonder what effect being a vegan has on testosterone levels in men.


Well that's a blatant misunderstanding of science. Humans evolved due to increasing efficiency in caloric consumption. This was mostly due to cooking not flesh itself. At any rate in the 21st century West not getting enough calories for brain development is hardly an issue. If anything excess consumption of dairy has been linked to an increased chance of getting Parkinson's.

It's the opposite of what you think. Erectile dysfunction is more common in obese or aged meat eaters than vegan men lol.


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## Forest Nymph

soop said:


> Meat doesn't cause obesity or heart failure. Processed foods some of which contain animal products surely do though.


Orly? Please introduce me to an obese vegan. A few might be a little chubby from genes or a fondness for Oreos, but there just aren't vegans who have morbid obesity. All of those people who weigh so much they can't move from bed are meat eaters. Numerous studies have been done on body weight and even vegetarians are on average slimmer than meat eaters not just vegans. 

Your risk of getting heart disease as a meat eater are about ten times the vegan risk due to cholesterol and excess saturated fat. Also have you ever noticed all those guys who push Atkins and paleo are always having heart attacks no matter how in shape they look? I know a slim woman who had high cholesterol in her 40s. Despite her appearance she loved steak. 

I was told last year I have the blood work of someone half my age. Lol.


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## soop

Forest Nymph said:


> Erectile dysfunction is more common in obese or aged meat eaters than vegan men lol.


https://towardsdatascience.com/why-correlation-does-not-imply-causation-5b99790df07e


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## soop

Forest Nymph said:


> Orly? Please introduce me to an obese vegan. A few might be a little chubby from genes or a fondness for Oreos, but there just aren't vegans who have morbid obesity. All of those people who weigh so much they can't move from bed are meat eaters. Numerous studies have been done on body weight and even vegetarians are on average slimmer than meat eaters not just vegans.


Even if it were true that there are no obese vegans, which its not, that doesn't prove that meat causes any of the conditions that were listed. 


> Your risk of getting heart disease as a meat eater are about ten times the vegan risk due to cholesterol and excess saturated fat.













> I know a slim woman who had high cholesterol in her 40s. Despite her appearance she loved steak.


I know a doctor who said that in general the patients with higher cholesterol were healthier, you know what neither of these statements do? Prove anything. 



> I was told last year I have the blood work of someone half my age. Lol.


Good for you, I never said it was impossible to be healthy on the vegan diet though, so I don't know what you think you're proving.


----------



## crazitaco

Ardielley said:


> Do I think there are some people who can't successfully be vegan? Perhaps. But I think a lot more just aren't interested in trying hard enough, which is understandable since from an outside perspective, being vegan looks difficult. From my experience, though, it requires minimal effort. I think if you're committed to the philosophy behind it, you have much more incentive to stick it out.
> 
> I don't see being vegan as pointless, much like how I don't see voting in elections as pointless. On your own, you might not have much impact, but as the saying goes, an avalanche can't exist without the individual snowflakes making it up. And society IS changing. We're seeing more and more vegan options all the time in restaurants and grocery stores, not to mention the increased publicity veganism is seeing on different forms of media.
> 
> However, even if vegans made no difference, I would still be vegan because I see it as the right thing to do. A lot of times, people don't change because they believe that doing so is futile. That's not just a self-defeating mindset -- it's also a self-fulfilling one. You don't change because you don't think anything will change... but things aren't changing because _people_ aren't... the same people who think they can't make a difference. The world would be a much better place if we could drop this mindset and just do what we think is right regardless.


You don't quite get my mindset. The way I see it it doesn't matter if I eat meat my whole life because at the end of the day I will still caused less harm and left less of an ecological footprint upon the earth than even the most well intentioned vegan who chose to have kids, and the preceeding generations that resulted from that once choice. Any harm I've caused will end at the grave with me, I will not restart the cycle, I am responsible for myself only. So I don't care what a vegan has to say about my habits unless they are also an antinatalist.

By all means be vegan though, its certainly noble in its own right. But don't fool yourselves into thinking that a diet alone will save the animals, humans are the most invasive species on the planet.


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## Forest Nymph

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> From what I've read over the years, a lot of people do fine on a vegan diet. However some people don't. Vegans will claim that anyone can do it, and those who become ill are just "doing it wrong" and anti-vegans will often claim veganism is inherently unhealthy. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Personally, I'm not vegan because I think its pointless. I believe that what is best for humans and what is best for non-humans are inherently in conflict, and for that reason we will never be able to ethically coexist with the animal world unless we as a species choose to reduce our population to fit with the global ecosystem. And i don't see that ever happening, even vegans get all pissy if you question the ethics of bringing people onto the earth. Vegans, at some point the ideology is faced with the ethical dillema to pick between reducing human suffering or reducing non-human suffering.


Is that so? Are you recommending genocide or just a nuclear war? If not I don't know how you think we will magically reduce the population fast enough to address manmade climate change. 

Besides it's a dumb argument apart from all of that. Why? Because Americans have the largest carbon footprint in the world per capita. Americans eat more meat than any group of humans in recorded history. The people doing the most damage actually aren't the countries with the largest populations. 

I feel like most conservatives stopped having new thoughts around 1995. Most of the anti vegan arguments and population control suggestions are so idiotic, vulgar, offensive and unscientific that I feel like we should just end the American public school system and start over with schools like MUSE in LA.


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## Mick Travis

Forest Nymph said:


> I feel like most conservatives stopped having new thoughts around 1995.


They're just protecting their indulgence and investments.


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## crazitaco

Forest Nymph said:


> Is that so? Are you recommending genocide or just a nuclear war? If not I don't know how you think we will magically reduce the population fast enough to address manmade climate change.


I'm recommending people voluntarily not have kids. People who are already existing can't be helped, may as well let them live life to the fullest. Do you really believe that our kind will experience climate catastrophe?



> Besides it's a dumb argument apart from all of that. Why? Because Americans have the largest carbon footprint in the world per capita. Americans eat more meat than any group of humans in recorded history. The people doing the most damage actually aren't the countries with the largest populations.


So would you say that american vegans are causing more overall harm than people in other countries just on account of their american-ness?


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## Ardielley

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> You don't quite get my mindset. The way I see it it doesn't matter if I eat meat my whole life because at the end of the day I will still caused less harm and left less of an ecological footprint upon the earth than even the most well intentioned vegan who chose to have kids, and the preceeding generations that resulted from that once choice. Any harm I've caused will end at the grave with me, I will not restart the cycle, I am responsible for myself only. So I don't care what a vegan has to say about my habits unless they are also an antinatalist.
> 
> By all means be vegan though, its certainly noble in its own right. But don't fool yourselves into thinking that a diet alone will save the animals, humans are the most invasive species on the planet.


I'm gay and will most likely not have kids, so. *shrug*

If you're concerned about the ecological impact of your choices, then yeah, choosing to not have kids might be the most efficient single choice. However, there's also the possibility that any kids you choose to have could bring about more good than harm in the world -- perhaps not in an ecological sense, but possibly in other ways. But as I've stated, most vegans are vegan for reasons beyond just the planet's well-being.

And no, I'm not under any delusions that I will change the world on my own or that the world will go vegan during my lifetime. But if I can help to bring the world even just a little bit closer (if only by not partaking in unnecessary harm myself), then that's something I see as worth striving for. Even if I make no difference at all, I'm still trying to live compassionately.


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## Forest Nymph

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> I'm recommending people voluntarily not have kids. People who are already existing can't be helped, may as well let them live life to the fullest. Do you really believe that our kind will experience climate catastrophe?
> 
> 
> 
> So would you say that american vegans are causing more overall harm than people in other countries just on account of their american-ness?


No. It's not enough to say that people should voluntarily have less kids. We have twelve years to stop climate change. That's not enough time to change the cultures of India, China, Ghana, and Niger. And like I said THEY'RE NOT EVEN THE PROBLEM AMERICANS ARE. 

You don't seem to understand that it's American MEAT CONSUMPTION driving climate change and global hunger. I don't know in what delusional world eating meat helps other humans. Grain and soy from developing countries is being sold to Western meat animals. American and Western European steaks are literally driving global hunger as well as global warming. 

Animal liberation is human liberation. To think it's caring for humans versus caring for animals is dangerously ignorant.


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## crazitaco

Ardielley said:


> I'm gay and will most likely not have kids, so. *shrug*
> 
> If you're concerned about the ecological impact of your choices, then yeah, choosing to not have kids might be the most efficient single choice. However, there's also the possibility that any kids you choose to have could bring about more good than harm in the world -- perhaps not in an ecological sense, but possibly in other ways. But as I've stated, most vegans are vegan for reasons beyond just the planet's well-being.
> 
> And no, I'm not under any delusions that I will change the world on my own or that the world will go vegan during my lifetime. But if I can help to bring the world even just a little bit closer (if only by not partaking in unnecessary harm myself), then that's something I see as worth striving for. Even if I make no difference at all, I'm still trying to live compassionately.


I can respect that, though you still seem supportive of human reproduction even if you aren't likely to have any yourself. As for whether my kids would do good, that's another can of worms. I'll say this though, people prefer not to think of the possibility that their child might grow to be a monster. And there's no shortage of terrible people in the world.

I do try to atleast limit my use of animal products. My problem though is when vegans use the specific argument that people shouldn't seek things for the sake of personal enjoyment if it causes any harm in the process. Because they only seem to want to apply that philosophy in one area of their life. Whether that involves having kids for the sake of personal fulfillment, going on some nice vacation which unintentionally causes the death of some animals along the way, or importing things they don't actually need but just want to enjoy. Some of them shit on vegetarians for not being as extreme as them, but everyone could always behave more compassionately/ethical.

Its not as though I'm living with zero regard for ethics/compassion, but my way of doing things is different. And sometimes I just need a damn ice cream to drown my sorrows.


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## crazitaco

Forest Nymph said:


> No. It's not enough to say that people should voluntarily have less kids. We have twelve years to stop climate change. That's not enough time to change the cultures of India, China, Ghana, and Niger. And like I said THEY'RE NOT EVEN THE PROBLEM AMERICANS ARE.


Nowhere did I place any blame on those countries or suggest its feasible to change the culture there. Besides, what's the worst that can happen after twelve years?



> You don't seem to understand that it's American MEAT CONSUMPTION driving climate change and global hunger. I don't know in what delusional world eating meat helps other humans. Grain and soy from developing countries is being sold to Western meat animals. American and Western European steaks are literally driving global hunger as well as global warming.


Do you think your current lifestyle is an ethical one? And do you object when non-americans consume animal products?



> Animal liberation is human liberation. To think it's caring for humans versus caring for animals is dangerously ignorant.


Explain.


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## Forest Nymph

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> I can respect that, though you still seem supportive of human reproduction even if you aren't likely to have any yourself. As for whether my kids would do good, that's another can of worms. I'll say this though, people prefer not to think of the possibility that their child might grow to be a monster. And there's no shortage of terrible people in the world.
> 
> I do try to atleast limit my use of animal products. My problem though is when vegans use the specific argument that people shouldn't seek things for the sake of personal enjoyment if it causes any harm in the process. Because they only seem to want to apply that philosophy in one area of their life. Whether that involves having kids for the sake of personal fulfillment, going on some nice vacation which unintentionally causes the death of some animals along the way, or importing things they don't actually need but just want to enjoy. Some of them shit on vegetarians for not being as extreme as them, but everyone could always behave more compassionately/ethical.
> 
> Its not as though I'm living with zero regard for ethics/compassion, but my way of doing things is different. And sometimes I just need a damn ice cream to drown my sorrows.


Have you ever heard of So Delicious? They make vegan frozen desserts. It's weird to me when people think vegans don't like to eat. It's like honestly do you know Pinterest even exists. Painting all vegans as ascetic or living in self denial is sheer comedy in 2018. People using these 1978 arguments like lolwut.


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## Forest Nymph

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> Nowhere did I place any blame on those countries or suggest its feasible to change the culture there. Besides, what's the worst that can happen after twelve years?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think your current lifestyle is an ethical one? And do you object when non-americans consume animal products?
> 
> 
> Explain.


Yes. I don't have children, I don't have a car, I haven't flown in an airplane in at least five years. I compost, I recycle, I vote. When I lived in LA I marched in multiple demonstrations. I have done volunteer work with children to teach them basic ecology. 

Yes I am also vegan. Yes I think meat consumption should cease immediately world wide. I know in some developing countries people can only be vegetarian and that's fine. For people in the first world who have no excuse no it's not fine. Part of vegan activism is education and I've considered going to grad school to focus specifically on environmental outreach for plant based diets and making them more accessible to everyone. Among other things. 

What you don't seem to understand about climate change and energy is the runaway tipping point. We have twelve years max to restructure society to avoid that. That doesn't mean everyone is dead in twelve years. It means after that it's basically a psychotic domino effect. People are already dying from climate change related events. Not just extreme weather and fires. But the war in Syria is a climate change war. Many people don't know that. 

My bachelor's is in environmental science. I'm used to people not understanding or simply not listening. But instead of giving up it's made me angry more than anything. People who literally are richer than kings were five hundred years ago make up the American middle class. My pity hovers right around zero. 

I don't believe in violence but I do believe in holding people personally responsible. Each and every one of you. I began with myself. I am personally responsible for climate change and I will devote my life to trying to help. 

Like I said plant based diets mitigate climate change and global hunger, so that is how animal liberation is human liberation. Also have you ever seen the conditions of workers in a slaughterhouse? It's like a horror movie I'm surprised they haven't marched on Washington with scythes. In the UK people are refusing to work in slaughterhouses in such numbers the meat council is worried for Christmas sales. Good. 

There's also underlying philosophical concepts like carnism and speciesism some vegan thinkers are convinced are related to racism, sexism, all forms of bigotry and the human tendency to war.


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## contradictionary

Feliz NaviDON'T said:


> I believe that what is best for humans and what is best for non-humans are inherently in conflict, and for that reason we will never be able to ethically coexist with the animal world unless we as a species choose to reduce our population to fit with the global ecosystem. And i don't see that ever happening, even vegans get all pissy if you question the ethics of bringing people onto the earth. Vegans, at some point the ideology is faced with the ethical dillema to pick between reducing human suffering or reducing non-human suffering.


Nice taco.

Vegans and PETAs. The latter is having it worst in term of such ethical dilemma, bordering in self (species) hating.



_Sent sans PC_


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