# Thoughts on a Career in Philosophy



## Jordan J (Apr 1, 2015)

What do you think of philosophy? 
What's the current state of finding work in philosophy? 
What advice would you give someone desiring to pursue a life of philosophy? 
Should my undergraduate help toward the desired end of philosophy, or should it be in a separate field of interest?


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

I studied it academically. 

There are none unless you get a doctorate and a teaching position, but it usually requires linguistics or an attachment. Law is the other route, but that is pretty much a dead end, nowadays.

If you like philosophy, study it on your own. It's like most of the arts; it doesn't have much use in practicality. It's a waste of money when you can get the same things from the library.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

I think that I can't answer that in this context.
Professor, usually. 
Be honest.
Both, but not the latter necessarily.


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

What @Doktorin Zylinder said, mostly. I have 65 credits in philosophy and I do not study it any more academically. There are no career options but to teach philosophy at a university. These positions are rare to acquire and also naturally require an expensive doctorate. An alternative is to teach at a community college. These positions are similarly rare and pay even less. Please do continue to study more philosophy academically as an elective and to meet core requirements but do not pursue a degree in it unless you are dead set on this risky career path.

I don't think it's a waste to study it in the classroom as there are nuances made more accessible and sources more carefully analyzed and commentated on there. But it would be a waste to pursue a degree unless you want to become a university professor.

Also be wary that philosophy graduate school involves Ti-extreme topics. After a year of discussing epiphenomena, qualia, the Quine-Duhem theorem, modal logic and so on, I was ready to quit philosophy academically. My passion was ethics and even if you follow suit, you will be obligated to endure floating castles in the air and logic chopping during your education and for the remainder of your career. Not a good discipline for practical-oriented people, so be warned!

Something else that may or may not concern you: pursuing a philosophy degree and a career involves lots of questions, often condescending, from nearly everyone. Be prepared to be looked down on and explain your choice to others. This isn't what turned me off from philosophy, but it's something that should be considered. Some people find this aspect really annoying.


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## xisnotx (Mar 20, 2014)

I have found my undergrad degree well worth it. I'd be more encouraging than the rest. Plenty of opportunities, I have seen.


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## Jordan J (Apr 1, 2015)

I appreciate the honest feedback, guys. You gave me some good stuff to think about, and it was a good reminder of the potential difficulties. At this point, here is my plan:

1) Get my undergraduate in Western classics (includes a good amount of philosophy). 
2) Get a MA in Philosophy in a two year degree.
3A) Either go on to earn a doctorate in philosophy and pray for work.
3B) Or branch out into a different area of interest like theology or science or law. I could even end up becoming a pastor for a period.

As for the Ti comment: I've always identified pretty strongly with Ti thinking, even though I am pretty certain that Te is my main function.
As for comments about teaching at a university: I'd be very happy with that. Pretty much no matter what I end up getting a doctorate in, I want to spend at least part of my life teaching in that field at a university.
As for people wondering what I'm doing with my life: haha, I've already gotten that a little bit. I told a friend I hadn't seen in a while that I was thinking about pursuing philosophy, and she had a million questions that basically all were "Why?" 
As for the competitiveness of the field and limited positions: I guess that means I'll just have to break my back to be the best .


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

Jordan J said:


> I appreciate the honest feedback, guys. You gave me some good stuff to think about, and it was a good reminder of the potential difficulties. At this point, here is my plan:
> 
> 1) Get my undergraduate in Western classics (includes a good amount of philosophy).
> 2) Get a MA in Philosophy in a two year degree.
> ...


This may sound apocalyptic, but one does not simply walk into a philosophy PHD.:sad:

I'm not a philosopher, but I work daily with new and impending PhDs in philosophy at one of the top-ranked philosophy departments in the country, and I know the professors well. The work situation is DIRE. Only 2-3 members of each incoming PhD class get *any* placement each year. That includes community colleges and postdocs. After getting your PhD, your best-bet scenario is to move to various one-year positions for at least 3-5 years before having a chance at a tenure-track position. Consider the impact of that, especially if you plan to date or get married in graduate school. Again, this is at a school with a *high* placement rate.

Most PhDs in philosophy (and the rest of the humanities) end up as adjunct teachers, getting paid by the course with no benefits. Google "adjunct" and read some of the articles. Many of my friends have been living on foodstamps and Medicaid for years, because once you get off the academic track even for a semester, you will never have a chance at academic employment ever again. So you make $3000 per course, possibly commuting to 3 or more schools in a metro area just to beef up your CV.

Do NOT get a two-year masters. No one intending to get at PhD in the humanities should ever pay for a degree. If you have even the slightest chance of making it to tenure-track, you will get accepted directly into a PhD program and they will pay YOU. This is somewhat unethical, but it's very common to be accepted as a PhD student, and receive a stipend, and leave after you finish the masters degree. Some people do this to vault themselves into better schools for their particular sub-field once they have a better idea what they want to write their dissertation in. For an influential, though flawed, ranking system, check out the Leiter Reports on philosophy programs. But if you do this, you will have to start over, meaning a minimum of 2 years MA + 5 years PhD, or 3 years PhD in the British system, but good luck getting funded for a British PhD.

If you want to pursue theology, be aware that you MUST have a Masters in Theological Studies to enter most funded PhD programs. No one will pay you for this, and it is usually a 3-year degree. I know some theology students at other schools (we don't have a program) who have the MTS *plus* MAs in philosophy and/or the relevant languages. They don't start a funded graduate program until age 30, at the earliest. This may not be true at seminaries; if you're serious about the clergy, it's worth looking into.

Science or law is a better bet: a B.S. in philosophy (especially ethics) will prepare you well for a J.D./PhD, but you'll have to start researching J.D./PhD programs NOW, as an undergraduate in the early stages, because you will need many extra courses if you ever want to consider law. Bioethics is a hot field right now in philosophy. If you check the job listings with the American Philosophical Association, you'll see most of the postings are for ethics, so if you're interested in metaphysics, epistemology, historical philosophy, continental, or philsci, good luck.

If all of this sounds far from the dream of contemplating the big question in the ivory tower, it is. The one thing that unites almost every student who ends up getting an academic job *anywhere* in their field is that they have been planning for it since at least our sophomore year of undergrad. Can you get a PhD with less than that? Sure. But you won't get a job.

*Having said that*, if you take the attitude that your self-worth does not depend on your tenure-track status and be OK starting from a low salary at an entry-level position at the age of 32, getting an advanced degree in the humanities (again, provided you get into a top-tier school that pays grad students a living wage) is a wonderful experience and grad student life is fantastic. There are lots of ways to work at a university without killing yourself, contrary to what most PhD students think. 

My advice is to double-major in something useful and get internships in that secondary field during grad school. That way, when you don't get a job (hope for the best and plan for the worst), you can at least do something interesting instead of working at a call center. I got a science degree and a humanities PhD, and had I not gotten lucky with my (non-teaching) job, it's nice to know I can lab-tech instead of starving.

*Edit*: Classics, i.e., Greek and Roman studies, is one of the few fields with a worse job market than philosophy. It is, however, a really useful and rewarding undergraduate degree that will help you with philosophy or law. If by "Western classics" you mean a Great Books program (these are really common at religious schools), many of the most talented people I've ever met, in science or the humanities, came out of those programs. If your school has one, seriously consider it, though you may need to double-major in a science if you want to be competitive there.


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## Swelly (Nov 3, 2011)




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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

Jordan J said:


> As for the competitiveness of the field and limited positions: I guess that means I'll just have to break my back to be the best .


Good for you! That is refreshing to hear. As long as you know that it may take a very long time for a position to open up. Definitely get a back-up job while you wait.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> I studied it academically.
> 
> There are none unless you get a doctorate and a teaching position, but it usually requires linguistics or an attachment. Law is the other route, but that is pretty much a dead end, nowadays.
> 
> If you like philosophy, study it on your own. It's like most of the arts; it doesn't have much use in practicality. It's a waste of money when you can get the same things from the library.


As in philosophy of law?


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## Jordan J (Apr 1, 2015)

Bathilda said:


> This may sound apocalyptic, but one does not simply walk into a philosophy PHD.:sad:
> 
> I'm not a philosopher, but I work daily with new and impending PhDs in philosophy at one of the top-ranked philosophy departments in the country, and I know the professors well. The work situation is DIRE. Only 2-3 members of each incoming PhD class get *any* placement each year. That includes community colleges and postdocs. After getting your PhD, your best-bet scenario is to move to various one-year positions for at least 3-5 years before having a chance at a tenure-track position. Consider the impact of that, especially if you plan to date or get married in graduate school. Again, this is at a school with a *high* placement rate.
> 
> ...


I very much appreciate this! At first this was a little depressing, but I'm actually more excited now than ever to try to pursue this. You're surprisingly familiar with pretty much all of the areas that I am interested in. If you don't mind my asking, what university do you work at? What do you do there?

Most of that made perfect sense, but I wasn't sure what you said about how most people go about earning/not earning a Masters degree in philosophy. Do people get them or not? If not, do they go straight from undergrad into Phd work? I don't think that's what you meant, but I'm a little bit confused. You said at the beginning of the paragraph "Do not get a two-year MA," and then later seemed to say the opposite. But regardless of all this, I actually have my heart set on doing a two-year MA at Talbot. It has the best Phd placement out of all Christian philosophy departments in the country. Given that I want to go there, do you have any further advice? Most likely, I'll just have to break my back working while I'm there :/.

About the Western Classics: Yes, I was referring to a Great Books program. I didn't know people knew about them, so I just gave it that generic description. If you're curious, here's a list of the books we'll be reading:
Bachelor of Arts in History of Ideas
I love this degree, because it will literally prepare me for law, philosophy, and theology.


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## Bathilda (Nov 4, 2014)

@Jordan J Good deal! Grad school is a wonderful experience, as long as you know what you're getting into!

I'm a little too paranoid to say which university I work at I hope you'll forgive me, I just have too much personal information out there. I will say I work at an institute, kind of a think-tank, in a research/administrative position that involves working with a lot of philosophers. 

Sorry for the confusion! To clarify on masters degrees: if you are admitted into a PhD program in the US, then entire program is usually 5 years. The first 2 years or so will be courses, followed by your candidacy examinations. After passing exams (at most places), you receive what's called an "en passant" or in-passing M.A. You don't usually have to do anything special to get this M.A. except maybe fill out a form; it's just a step in your degree process. At this point, you can leave with a Masters, having been paid all the time. Whereas if you just applied to what's called a "terminal" Masters, you would be paying the school, instead of them paying you. But if certain really good programs only offer a terminal masters, it may be well worth it to get to work with people who really matter in your field. 

Christian philosophy is something I don't know much about. I actually ran into an acquaintance yesterday who does religious history who said that, actually, if you belong to a particular denomination, the job market is a little bit better. He said schools like BIOLA, Westmont, Wheaton, Calvin, etc have pretty strict codes of belief that faculty have to ascribe to, and so professors who are willing to sign a document attesting to their belief in the divinity of Christ, predestination, or what have you, are at a major advantage for working at a religious school! I can vouch that a lot of the job ads say things like "the ideal candidate will embrace the principles of a Christian education" or something like that.

Good for you already having a place to go--just be sure to ask as many people as you can. All I know about Christian philosophy is that Notre Dame has historically been a big producer of PhDs in that field (I know one graduate of there who did get a great job in Christian philosophy, and he's not a Catholic), but a lot of their big guys like Alistair MacIntyre and Peter van Ingwagon (?) are retiring, so I don't know how it is now. Might be worth looking into.

Good luck, and enjoy your program! I'm drooling over the Western Classics curriculum. Feel free to PM me sometime if you have more detailed questions--not sure I can help, but I'll do my best!


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## Jordan J (Apr 1, 2015)

@Bathilda, thank you again! I'll certainly keep you in mind if I have more detailed questions in the future. This has been very helpful .


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## Doktorin Zylinder (May 10, 2015)

Noir said:


> As in philosophy of law?


No, I mean to be a good lawyer, you should probably have a philosophical background, but if you have too good an understanding, the premise of the legal system falls apart at its seems and the foundation crumbles. In North America, the LSAT requires logic, if I recall. Quite a bit of it. But, hey, everyone loves a little cognitive dissonance. 

It's one of the reasons I was never a lawyer. I would have been disbarred very quickly for exploiting loopholes. I also don't like how the system is run and its corruption, but that another matter entirely.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

Doktorin Zylinder said:


> No, I mean to be a good lawyer, you should probably have a philosophical background, but if you have too good an understanding, the premise of the legal system falls apart at its seems and the foundation crumbles. In North America, the LSAT requires logic, if I recall. Quite a bit of it. But, hey, everyone loves a little cognitive dissonance.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I was never a lawyer. I would have been disbarred very quickly for exploiting loopholes. I also don't like how the system is run and its corruption, but that another matter entirely.


Oh, ok. I live in a civil law country, so I won't comment on this.
To the OP, for what's worth, we have a pretty good university professor that teaches philosophy of law in my law school.


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## Apple Pine (Nov 27, 2014)

Only if it really interests you, think you are witty enough.


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