# Compare/Contrast of 8s and 6s by Swordsman of Mana



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

essentially, you have to look past the external and look at the _world view_ of the individual to tell the difference. the external cues and even the motivations can be completely identical
- 8s value power, so do 6s (6s sometimes even value power _more_ than 8s)
- 8s are survivalists and place high priority in physical safety, so do 6s
- 8s view the world as a dark and dangerous place where you have to be ready for shit to hit the fan, so do 6s

as you can see, even on a deeper level, 6s and 8s can be very similar. you have to dig VERY deep to be able to tell them apart sometimes


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

8s don't view the world as a dark and dangerous place where they have to *stay prepared* etc. That's a 6 thing. 8s don't feel the need to '*stay* prepared'; they "know" they can handle whatever comes up.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Boss said:


> 8s don't view the world as a dark and dangerous place where they have to *stay prepared* etc. That's a 6 thing. 8s don't feel the need to '*stay* prepared'; they "know" they can handle whatever comes up.


I guess what i meant is that they _are_ prepared for the worst (8s are naturally, 6s prepare preemptively). point is, neither expect to go through life with things going according to plan. 
it's like @Sovereign said. he views the world as dangerous, but he knows he can handle it.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

That's his personal perspective. Theoretically speaking, 'dangerous' is a bit off for an 8s perspective on the world. But, I see your point.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

It all depends on one's definition and weight of the word "dangerous," I suppose. An electric socket is dangerous. Lead paint is dangerous. If one stumbles out into the world an idiot, then the world will eventually eat them. The entire natural pattern is for the weak to be devoured by the strong. If you're strong, the world is still potentially dangerous. Everyone has to fight to succeed. Bad things happen. Death is an inevitability and a constant daily possibility, even in our modern day societies. The world is still not all unicorns and fairies. 

That said, fighters survive longer, and I'm a fighter.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> - 6s view themselves as vulnerable and easily hurt/manipulated; 8s view themselves as powerful and often forget the limits of this power


It is really important not to confuse being vunerable and open to being attacked to actually viewing yourself as vunerable. This is a key point in my thinking. I do not think I come accross as vunerable to others and do my upmost attempt to appear strong, not because I sense a strength in me, no. It is simply to act as a shield to others so they are less likely to look down on me as vunerable, its interesting because the vunerability I feel inside is most certainly there, sometimes repressed, distracted from, covered up in front of others. Sometimes the walls go up as a way of detering people. The only way to break through the walls are to get to know me, spend time with me so I can spend time figuring you out and once you have proven yourself to be genuine, I will let you see little bits, more of the vunerable side of me, sometimes it can take months, sometimes years. 



Nobleheart said:


> Counterphobic sexual 6's are almost identical to 8's, especially 8w9's as 6's integrate toward 9 and the sx nature gravitates them toward the gut triad. The major difference is that the CPsx6 is focused on power and strength for the sake of defense, while the 8 is more focused on power and strength for the sake of assertion.Strangely though, the CPsx6 is more likely to go on the offensive, and the 8w9 more likely to be on the defensive. I can't tell you how many times I've had some CP6 try to get in my face because they were actually afraid of me for no reason other than apparently I give off a big vibe that intimidates them. With CP6's it's calculated and planned bravado. With 8's it's inherent force of will. CP6's turn it up to create a defensive screen. 8w9's tone it down so people won't get jumpy. When these two types clash, it often seems like a water balloon hitting a brick wall.



Now, we are heading home. Especially when you mentioned cp6/sx which I am so can shed a little light on the perspective. I knew for sure, there was no way I was an 8 yet had the aggression, I should say defensive aggression. I will attack you before you attack me. This can and does make me unnapproachable. I am wary of other people, I want to know why they have asked me the question they have, what do they want to find out? Haha, being up big cases against someone percieved to be a threat is also striking home. My poor partner, he often hears the brunt of my paranoid delusions and how far I can actually go with them, I can make up some pretty extravagant scenarios in my head about a friend who maybe trying to play games with me, turns out I may well be the only player. Sometimes I am right, sometimes not. 



Nobleheart said:


> Do you feel this rush of anxiety because you don't want to upset anyone in the process, or are you afraid that you're stepping into the unknown?
> Meanwhile, the CP6 would likely want to avoid disrupting the atmosphere of the coffee shop for fear of the repercussions - especially if it would endanger their security with friends or their ability to have a hang out. If approached on the street, the CP6 would become more and more avoidant with the stranger as things escalate into being 'dangerous'. There might be some initial bravado to scare the stranger more than the stranger scared them, but this will quickly fade and likely turn to escape tactics.


I have actually played this scenario in my head many times, where I am walking in an alley late at night and if I were attacked, what would I do. I have a mental list so I feel prepared if this should happen. Having said all that, I have also just stuck a thumb out a few times to hitch a lift somewhere. So there you go. If you act weak, though, people will treat you as such, thats what I learnt. 



Boss said:


> This would fit in with your point about 6s being much more sensitive to how they're perceived.


Yes but do many 6's have any idea how they are percieved? Do other 6's put a lot thought into what others think of them, does it go with the territory?



Spades said:


> Sixes' anxiety isn't always conscious. In fact, it's not in many CP 6's. When I take the Big Five tests, I always score high on "Calm" vs "Limbic". I consider myself much more able than the average person to handle stressful situations and conflict, and I'm generally in a peaceful mood. I think this may be because I've taken all the necessary measures to ensure that aspect of my life is stable, which could be a Six problem-solving quality. Sixes aren't little helpless wimps that descriptions make them out to be  Then again, I'm not fully convinced I am one.


I agree. In fact, although at times, I can appear not very confident, much of the time depending on what environment I am in, I can appear pretty calm. Thats also experiece though. I expect many 6's have picked up a few books on how to live a more peaceful life, lol! But all the destress techniques I have been taught over the years have worked a lot. I end up sometimes being the one that destresses others, take a deep breath...
Helpless little wimps? Nah, I don't think so. How can you be a problem solver but unable to actually solve your own problems, thats helpful. I would say this occurs though at the unhealthier levels for sure. I'm being honest in that I exhaust myself with overthinking, so by the time comes for action, I probably do need someone to give me a little pep talk, maybe even take over until I have recharged my brain again.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@mushr00m



> It is really important not to confuse being vunerable and open to being attacked to actually viewing yourself as vunerable. This is a key point in my thinking. I do not think I come accross as vunerable to others and do my upmost attempt to appear strong, not because I sense a strength in me, no. It is simply to act as a shield to others so they are less likely to look down on me as vunerable, its interesting because the vunerability I feel inside is most certainly there, sometimes repressed, distracted from, covered up in front of others. Sometimes the walls go up as a way of detering people. The only way to break through the walls are to get to know me, spend time with me so I can spend time figuring you out and once you have proven yourself to be genuine, I will let you see little bits, more of the vunerable side of me, sometimes it can take months, sometimes years.


thankyou. this is what I was getting at, but you explained it much better than me


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Sovereign said:


> It all depends on one's definition and weight of the word "dangerous," I suppose. An electric socket is dangerous. Lead paint is dangerous. If one stumbles out into the world an idiot, then the world will eventually eat them. The entire natural pattern is for the weak to be devoured by the strong. If you're strong, the world is still potentially dangerous. Everyone has to fight to succeed. Bad things happen. Death is an inevitability and a constant daily possibility, even in our modern day societies. The world is still not all unicorns and fairies.
> 
> That said, fighters survive longer, and I'm a fighter.


this sums up pretty well some of the life lessons my 8w7 best friend has taught me
- shit happens
- if you are stupid or hold naive notions, you will suffer consequences, which can range anywhere from bumping your head to dying. 
- failure and defeat are the defaults of life. winning in life is *hard* and does not _just happen_
- life brings challenges and hardship to everyone. strong people are the ones who learn from it and put it behind them
- if you aren't strong, people can and will take things away from you

apart from my external demeanor (which looks absolutely _nothing_ like the stereotypical 7w6 descriptions lol) I think his influence on my perception of reality runs on a deep level that causes me to relate to 8s a lot (as opposed to when I was younger. I basically thought life was like Winnie the Pooh and couldn't really understand why anyone would want to hurt each other or do anything other than frolic around and have fun LOL). no matter what type you are, learning through experience that people can and will hurt you, life doesn't always work out and that you are a slave to your circumstances until you can overcome them would motivate almost anyone to become strong and independent. 

@Boss
by dangerous I mean: full of things that can cause you potential harm


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

- I don't think Sixes value power, I think CP Sixes in general value the appearance of being powerful (at least the ones I know)
- Eights place a high priority on Justice and controlling their themselves and their environment ; Sixes place a high priority on ensuring they are with supported and feel secure
- Boss already corrected this one so I'm just going to +1 her comment


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> by dangerous I mean: full of things that can cause you potential harm


 Same difference.... Eights are not scanning the environment for potential harm or expect for the environment to be a harmful one. If you must go with this Eights view the world as an unjust place.

Edit: The core motivations and desires are Eights are very different. Both are reactive....so, to an outsider looking in they may appear the same on the surface but there is a distinctive and qualitative difference between the two. 

Eights focus is power with a habitual thought of vengeance. And, are blind to the impact they have on others.

Sixes focus is hazard with a habitual thought of doubt. And, are blind to the actual power of authority.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

n2freedom said:


> Same difference.... Eights are not scanning the environment for potential harm or expect for the environment to be a harmful one. If you must go with this Eights view the world as an unjust place.
> 
> Edit: The core motivations and desires are Eights are very different. Both are reactive....so, to an outsider looking in they may appear the same on the surface but there is a distinctive and qualitative difference between the two.
> 
> ...


I never claimed that 8s were "scanning their environment" for potential danger, but they expect conflict and hardship in life (more so than, say, a 7w6 or 9w1)


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## n2freedom (Jun 2, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I never claimed that 8s were "scanning their environment" for potential danger, but they expect conflict and hardship in life (more so than, say, a 7w6 or 9w1)


 I disagree.....expect injustice yes. Hardship in life....no. I can't speak for other eights but I expect to get what I want with little to no difficulty. And, so far life has proven me right as I typically get what I want without encountering "hardships". 

I used the "scanning their environment" because if one fears their environment to be harmful then they would be hypervigilant in looking for possible threats to their safety. Hence "scanning their environment".


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

n2freedom said:


> I disagree.....expect injustice yes. Hardship in life....no. I can't speak for other eights but I expect to get what I want with little to no difficulty. And, so far life has proven me right as I typically get what I want without encountering "hardships".
> 
> I used the "scanning their environment" because if one fears their environment to be harmful then they would be hypervigilant in looking for possible threats to their safety. Hence "scanning their environment".


I was under the impression 8s thought their environment was harmful but that they were nonetheless not afraid of it. interesting point though, perhaps my evidence was a little too anecdotal (I know at least ten definite 8s in my life and they all give the impression that they view life as a tough game where you have to fight for what you want, whether that's against an enemy or a work project) maybe they just look this way on the outside and really think "this is it? lol"


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

They expect conflict, and they learn how to overcome hardship especially when they come from difficult backgrounds. And, SOM, instead of basing the bulk of your observations upon the "8s you know", it would be better to actually read Enneagram theory.

Btw, that 'definition' you gave me, of the word dangerous is pretty much universally accepted. You haven't placed an innovative spin on it. So, the whole 'harmful' theme is really off as N2 has also pointed out. And @Sovereign, I am well aware that shit happens and life isn't a fairy tale. 
What I am saying about the 'dangerous' theme is that I expect an 8 to see the world as inherently conflictual as opposed to dangerous, and conflict may or may not be 'harmful'. Having lived through a lot of shit (War, violence, death on a massive scale) that most people only read about or watch on TV, I still don't see the world as a 'dangerous' place. I know that conflict is the very cornerstone of existence and survival. Despite my rather extreme experiences, the danger part hasn't left an impression on my psyche. I don't expect most 8s to view the world as dangerous and keep an eye out for whatever is potentially harmful.


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

6 – It goes more like how much one was able to handle tough situations, how often or good one was able to defend oneself, how capable someone was holding one’s ground

8 – The above sounds rather weak to 8s as it shows persons who are reacting to outside forces instead of letting others react how they want it to be.


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

Boss said:


> And, SOM, instead of basing the bulk of your observations upon the "8s you know", it would be better to actually read Enneagram theory.


To get what a type is about you actually have to observe living and breathing people of that type or else you will be stuck with mere descriptions which are likely to be misinterpreted. People who only know the descriptions are likely to squash themselves into a type instead of experiencing it from the inside. Like for instance people mistyping as Fives tend to say they are about gathering knowledge and wanting to know more and more whereas for Fives knowledge is more like a by-product. 
Of course, you have to identify the types correctly which is difficult at first.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Delphyne, The value of observation can never be discounted. So, my point is more about having a good grasp of the theory so the least you can do is identify types correctly. Mis-typing people based on half-baked stereotypes hinders one's progress. So, start with a decent grasp on theory and reinforce your learning and enhance your current knowledge by observing those around you, noting subtler nuances in behaviour etc.

P.S. While I agree with the 6 part, I don't think an '8' would view that as weak. I would expect that an 8s sense of personal strength/confidence is not dependent on the number of times they've stood their ground etc. But, it's pretty obvious that everyone is reacting/responding to their environment. That you believe you can make that 'environment' bend to your will is awesome, but sometimes, you'll have to temporarily adapt before you can achieve that.


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## Delphyne (May 15, 2011)

Boss said:


> @Delphyne, The value of observation can never be discounted. So, my point is more about having a good grasp of the theory so the least you can do is identify types correctly. Mis-typing people based on half-baked stereotypes hinders one's progress. So, start with a decent grasp on theory and reinforce your learning and enhance your current knowledge by observing those around you, noting subtler nuances in behaviour etc.


I don’t know if typing based on stereotypes can be avoided at the beginning. Actually it’s not so much the stereotypes I see as problematic as people not seeing how much of the learning about the enneagram is an ongoing process. 
In your previous post you said something about it being better to read up on the theory. While I see it as a good thing to get a basic understanding of the types unfortunately not everything written about the enneagram is good stuff and some things are actually creating new stereotypes or wrong knowledge instead of helping to gain a better understanding. This includes published enneagram authors and teachers. And even with the authors who have a good grasp in general come up with mediocre stuff now and then, but revise and find better words and subtler nuances as they learn more. The reader normally doesn’t know if the author still likes what he has written some time ago or thinks rather ashamed of the crap he produced while people eagerly quote his sentences. 




> P.S. While I agree with the 6 part, I don't think an '8' would view that as weak. I would expect that an 8s sense of personal strength/confidence is not dependent on the number of times they've stood their ground etc. But, it's pretty obvious that everyone is reacting/responding to their environment. That you believe you can make that 'environment' bend to your will is awesome, but sometimes, you'll have to temporarily adapt before you can achieve that.


This is something that can be observed with 8s. How they interpret everything out of a position of strength rather than proving themselves or showing courage against outside forces.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

This is a really good thread


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## RobynC (Jun 10, 2011)

@_Swordsman of Mana_



> 6s view themselves as vulnerable and easily hurt/manipulated; 8s view themselves as powerful and often forget the limits of this power


As a child I was actually more like the 8 description -- except the fact that when I got hurt I found myself quite surprised by how bad this could be. Then I realized that I (as well as most people) are actually surprisingly vulnerable under most circumstances and wanted to prevent this from happening.



> 6s want power so they can find stability, predictability and know "everything's going to be okay", 8s want power so they can be independent (which some 6s want as well), do what they want, be self sufficient and make sure no one gets in the way of their life


I want power so I can be autonomous, be self-sufficient, and I want predictability so I can have autonomy, self-sufficiency, and maintain a degree of security.



> 6s and 8s both view the world a dangerous place, but for 6s, this is a bigger deal for them. to a 6, the world is unstable, unpredictable and scary.


Well yeah, the world's a jungle...



> an 8 by contrast view contrast as natural. they view life much the way nature is presented in a nature documentary. there are limited resources, high competition and inevitable conflicts.


I understand this mode of thinking, but I don't like to operate this way. A society that operates that way is basically a society of... well bankers and dominant tyrants.



> both 8s and 6s can be combative, but the 6's combativeness is more personal and reactive "sicking it to the man"


You mean revenge like?



> a 6 will not be able to maintain this state for as long as an 8 (who can fight indefinitely).


That's not true, nobody can fight indefinitely -- I can give you a real good example. I hit you right under the jaw and (your jaw might break and teeth might come out) you'll fly back a bit, then land on the floor like a big old sack of bricks.



> when you dig deeper, as 6s and 8s disintegrate further, the core of 6 is insecurity and an unstable, wobbly foundation. with the 8 however, the deeper you dig, you only find MORE rage and MORE desire to dominate one's environment until you get get down to sheer predatory vengeance and rage.


Ummm, I kind of fit the last one more.

Like this sort of :shocked:



> integrated 6s become serene, content and at peace. an integrated type 6 is a very gentle and understanding type who has gained control over his quick, mental energy and can apply it more productively.


When I'm not stressed I can be pretty mellow -- I'm still pessimistic but I'm not generally that overtly anxious.



> 6s and 8s both tend to do well under pressure, but 6s will reach a point where they've "had enough" or buckle under the pressure.





> 8s by contrast have nearly unbreakable wills and will keep fighting at whatever they're doing until they die or decide to move on to something else.


Doesn't deciding to move onto something else sort of mean giving up?



> 6s are conscientious and will often fret about other's opinions of them looking back on "oh no! did I say something wrong? what if they thought this?!" 8s by contrast, even social 8s, tend to give little if any energy into how they are perceived by others


I care about others a lot... usually about how things affect them. When under pressure though I tend to act/react then think about it later (smetimes with horror)


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