# Immature/Unhealthy Fi - What does it look like?



## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Just to even things out, since I'm really want to see some balance here; since based on the similar thread with Fe in the title, many of the adjectives for unhealthy and immature Fe seem to be almost the same.

The only differences that I can see with some poorly developed Fi users is: a maintaining I'll do whatever the hell I feel like regardless whether it hurts anyone or not. I'll impose my values on others and condescend and insult them, if they disagree with me.

Otherwise, it seems to be pretty much the same difference.
Is Fe bashing just another misdirected cognitive type witch hunt?

Because, any time there is a thread created to dump on Fe, some disgruntled Fi users go to town and IMO, that reeks of function bullying.

Thoughts?


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## LittleMissCurious (Jul 1, 2012)

Well, I do think immature Fe is more likely to disrespect boundaries than Fi. They are others oriented, so when that is immature, it's more likely to actively assault the social order. Like I mentioned in the other thread: bossiness, gossip, projection (guilt tripping), triangulation.

Fi would tend toward being judgmental, as in assuming that anything that did not automatically conform to its hierarchy of values is bad. It may or may not be, but Fi can be myopic in its judgmemts. ISTJs especially due to relatively weak N which, if better developed, would provide for other possibilities or at least more accurate insight.

I would argue that an Fi user unloading on someone is attempting to define that person in terms of their own values. I believe Fe would be inclined to use shame and the other person's sense of obligation. They could look the same, but people can do the same or similar things for entirely different reasons.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

I'll talk to Fi since I'm Fi-Dom. 

Immature Fi can go in three ways, two are ignorant, the other is annoying.

Ignorant: "Everybody thinks/feels the same way I do"
Or: "Nobody thinks/feels the same way I do"
Annoying: "Everybody _should _think/feel the same way I do"

So, probably black and white thinking?


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## mashedpotato (Apr 12, 2015)

Basically Fi is a little bitch and Fe is a huge asshole. Idk. It makes sense to me. :tongue:


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

maturity is subjective 
@bigstupidgrin 

what you are describing is an INFP Fi. for us ISFP's we don't have Ne .so most things are black and white.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

My mum is Fi dom. She has no idea how much she made me question my mental sanity. Still love her, she s amazing!


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

the401 said:


> maturity is subjective
> @bigstupidgrin
> 
> what you are describing is an INFP Fi. for us ISFP's we don't have Ne .so most things are black and white.


Fair enough. So what would an immature ISFP's Fi look like?


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

My thoughts? I clicked on this thread happy to oblige but this looks like a disingenuous attempt to denigrate Fi in order to type-bully back some disgruntled Fi-users. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Later.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Dao said:


> My thoughts? I clicked on this thread happy to oblige but this looks like a disingenuous attempt to denigrate Fi in order to type-bully back some disgruntled Fi-users.
> 
> Later.


If you don't do it for the OP, maybe you could reconsider your stance towards genuinely interested people.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

bigstupidgrin said:


> Fair enough. So what would an immature ISFP's Fi look like?


well that depends on what is your definition of "mature"

it can be anything since maturity is subjective lol.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Guys, can't you just stop nitpicking semantics bs? You could just give your own subjective version of immature Fi...


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## Revolver Ocelot (Feb 25, 2015)

Is Fe the bullying function? Fi users tend to be happy to let people be.


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

WikiRevolution said:


> If you don't do it for the OP, maybe you could reconsider your stance towards genuinely interested people.


Not on this thread. I can, however, PM you within two days. Please remind me!


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

WikiRevolution said:


> Guys, can't you just stop nitpicking semantics bs? You could just give your own subjective version of immature Fi...


lol.

i really don't know....... lol.

it's hard for me to decide because i don't have a clear idea of my own definition of maturity that doesn't contradict the very definition of what Fi is.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Dao said:


> Not on this thread. I can, however, PM you within two days. Please remind me!


If that s all I can get, I feel honored, and I will PM, thanks. However, I have to state that I feel sorry that you didn't manage to get over it.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Revolver Ocelot said:


> Is Fe the bullying function? Fi users tend to be happy to let people be.



well yea i guess.. but as a Fi -dom for me personally i'm not happy or anything it's that i literally just don't care. asking people questions and stuff that Fe does drains me.

i don't know if Fe is the bullying functions . but i think it all just depends on how you use it. it can be used for bullying though.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Bullying involves Force & Opposition. Both have a responsibility in it. One can't simply label something as being too forceful without recognizing the relative weaker opposition.

Also, I think every function (probably more noticeably a judging one) has the potential to be bullying, it is not particularly inherent to any of them.


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

WikiRevolution said:


> If that s all I can get, I feel honored, and I will PM, thanks. However, I have to state that I feel sorry that you didn't manage to get over it.


It isn't matter of hurt feelings or getting over it. It's a matter of principle and personal ethics. I don't oblige type-bullying even in response to other type-bullies. This is the essence of Fi.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Dao said:


> It isn't matter of hurt feelings or getting over it. It's a matter of principle and personal ethics. I don't oblige type-bullying even in response to other type-bullies. This is the essence of Fi.


Ok, thanks for clarifying this.
Disappointment => Respect


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## Dao (Sep 13, 2013)

WikiRevolution said:


> Ok, thanks for clarifying this.
> Disappointment => Respect


No problem! I will get you that message soon.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Questionable thread aside, I liked @Thalassa's contribution.

Both Lana and Eminem were the first artists crossing my mind when thinking of ISFPs at low levels of health.
It helps that many of them tend to be reactive types (usually 6s) while INFPs tend to favor withdrawn ones.

But I agree that the ways Se and Ne tackle an issue are very different.
Se will jump in and react with fire, determined to act upon the feelings of the moment.
Ne is more cerebral, more guarded, busy trying to find alternatives and avoiding unnecessary conflict.
Both are rooted in hurt principles and self-loathing, often an NFP will have similar thoughts to an SFP but not act on them.

This reminds me of a typical ISFP stuck in an unhealthy loop:






As you can see, it starts with defensive confrontation to cover up internal moral dissonance

*Being a mistress on the side,
It might not appear to fools like you.
Creeping around on the side
Might not be somethin' you would do.*

There's a strong Ji-judgmental streak, self doubt hidden by aggressiveness.

*You haven't seen my man,
You haven't seen him.

He's got the fire and he walks with fame*

Loyalty to her feelings, strong idealization, "it's wrong but it feels so right".

*I'm a sad girl, I'm a sad girl, I'm a sad girl.
I'm a sad girl, I'm a bad girl, I'm a bad girl.*

After the realization, this is her inner and hidden feelings.
Despite her confrontational appearance, there's a lot of self loathing and struggling.

*Watch what you say to me,
Careful who you're talkin' to.

I'm on fire, baby, I'm on fire*

She still refuses to let her side show, unlike an INFP she doesn't conceal it or withdraw, she covers it up with aggression.

This is an INFP stuck in an unhealthy loop for comparison:






*The city's driving me out of my mind.
I've seen a child is caught in the sad trap of gravity.
He falls from the lowest branch of the apple tree
and lands in the grass and weeps for his dignity.
Next time he will not aim so high.
Yeah, next time, neither will I.*

He sees his own feelings in everything he sees, in every metaphor he can think of.
Self-defeatist, hiddenly open self loathing "Next time I won't aim so high".
Passive aggressive rather than aggressive.

*And so I've learned to retreat at the first sign of danger.
I mean, why wait around, if it's just to surrender?
An ambition, I've found, can lead only to failure.
I do not read the reviews.
No, I am not singing for you.*

Everything is failure, nothing is worth fighting for.
More self-pitying than an ISFP will ever be, passive aggressive, hurt and hiding.
Ne is quite childish, there's a childlike element to his deep pain and self loathing.

*Well, my teachers, they built this retaining wall of memory,
all those multiple choices I answered so quickly.
And got my grades back and forgot just as easily,
but as least I got an A.
And so I don't have them to blame.
Well I should stop pointing fingers;
reserve my judgment of all those public action figures* 

You can see Ji being just as strong and yet held back somehow.
"Perhaps this is wrong, perhaps I'm the problem like always"
Extremely strong self awareness, almost distorted. He can't help but judge even if he doesn't want to.

*"Honesty", "Accuracy" is just "Popular Opinion."*
INFP's hatred of group think (often falling under Fe, explaining the natural conflict)
As you can see, he's jaded and hurt. NFPs can be extremely cynical, far from fluffy.

*And my father was there, in a chair, by the window, staring so far away.
I tried talking, just whispered, "...so sorry...so selfish..." *
The undying perception of an INFP of themselves as too selfish and yet they cannot stop focusing on themselves. Not believing any kind of compliment nor positive enforcement if not felt as true.

*But where was it when I first heard a sweet sound of humility?
It came to my ears in the goddamn loveliest melody.
How grateful I was then to be part of the mystery,
to love and to be loved. Let's just hope that is enough.*

There it is. The extreme passive aggressiveness of an INFP.
We avoid conflict, let it out on ourselves, conceal this side from others, withdraw and yet it can't be helped.
A depressed INFP will always be a bit snappy and reluctantly passive aggressive, regardless of enneatype.

I liked your example of Morrissey, after re-reading about him and focusing on his songs, I can see it too.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Hotaru said:


> Questionable thread aside, I liked @Thalassa's contribution.
> 
> Both Lana and Eminem were the first artists crossing my mind when thinking of ISFPs at low levels of health.
> It helps that many of them tend to be reactive types (usually 6s) while INFPs tend to favor withdrawn ones.
> ...


hmmmm i know eminem the rapper....... ( not a big fan but i know him, i really like his song "lose yourself"). don't know Lana though. i don't know anyone from Thalassa's mention in the thread.

but anyways, aren't you taking the lyrics too seriously? i mean are you even sure they write their own lyrics? ( i think eminem does) I'm not too sure about Lana though.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

the401 said:


> but anyways, aren't you taking the lyrics too seriously? i mean are you even sure they write their own lyrics? ( i think eminem does) I'm not too sure about Lana though.


I like analyzing lyrics.

I know that Conor Oberst (the lead singer of the band in the second video) is a songwriter and writes his own songs, I think Lana does too and even with a bit of help here and there, the feelings in her songs are genuine and based on her own experience. I like using music as a basis because it's usually a great way to express intimate feelings without being too straightforward about it (Kurt Cobain was a master of hiding bleeding emotions behind nonsense).

It might be excessive but it sure is interesting to me.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Hotaru said:


> I like analyzing lyrics.
> 
> I know that Conor Oberst (the lead singer of the band in the second video) is a songwriter and writes his own songs, I think Lana does too and even with a bit of help here and there, the feelings in her songs are genuine and based on her own experience. I like using music as a basis because it's usually a great way to express intimate feelings without being too straightforward about it (Kurt Cobain was a master of hiding bleeding emotions behind nonsense).
> 
> It might be excessive but it sure is interesting to me.


hmmmmmm ok cool lol.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Hotaru said:


> Questionable thread aside, I liked @Thalassa's contribution.
> 
> Both Lana and Eminem were the first artists crossing my mind when thinking of ISFPs at low levels of health.
> It helps that many of them tend to be reactive types (usually 6s) while INFPs tend to favor withdrawn ones.
> ...


Oh this is very good. I especially relate to the Sad Girl cocky aggression concealing pain, and it's not just a show either, I think this is really how she feels, or how I would feel. It's genuine. Why would I do this socially unacceptable thing? But you haven't seen my man, you haven't seen him. I have certainly felt that way, and also seen the INFP as annoyingly passive aggressive. Great post!


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bethdeth said:


> I think it's rather fraught with issues trying to lump Fi and Fe comparatively as one function separate from the pairings.
> 
> When I think of Fi being poorly developed it's more like it's in the tertiary or the inferior position like it is for ENTJs, ISTJs ESTJs and INTJs. It won't develop as a matter of course until there is some kind of movement but it still doesn't mean that these types are immature.
> 
> ...


Yes, I apologise for not being clearer. I was not so much referring to stacking as to improper or unhealthy (I hate the word, "immature" -- too judgemental sounding - just like the word, "petty" which isn't even function related) Fi. If I were to make a thread on the proper or healthy uses of this function, I have a really amazing friend who could be the poster child for Fi at it's best, most profound, insightful and deep. I never tire of listening to her; since she helps me to get in touch with the deeper recesses of my soul - which not being Fi type, and a core E 5, isn't easy for me.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

the401 said:


> hmmmm i know eminem the rapper....... ( not a big fan but i know him, i really like his song "lose yourself"). don't know Lana though. i don't know anyone from Thalassa's mention in the thread.
> 
> but anyways, aren't you taking the lyrics too seriously? i mean are you even sure they write their own lyrics? ( i think eminem does) I'm not too sure about Lana though.


Elizabeth Grant writes her own lyrics and creates entire concepts and personas, I have perfect clarity on why her lyrics should be taken seriously in fact I tend to think people who don't are misogynistic.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

the401 said:


> hmmmmmm ok cool lol.


Is there a particular reason you don't take singer/song writers seriously, or is it just the females?


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Thalassa said:


> Elizabeth Grant writes her own lyrics and creates entire concepts and personas, I have perfect clarity on why her lyrics should be taken seriously in fact I tend to think people who don't are misogynistic.


oh well I'm not misogynistic ( heard of this word before, weird word lol) i mean you can't hate women as a whole...... there are types of women that i completely hate. But there are ones that i really like too lol.

anyways yea i mean if she writes her own lyrics then of course it is to be taken seriously since as an ISFP that's more of an "musical type" myself.

i truly understand what it means to write your own lyrics. and the importance of the message of the song written by ISFP's. 

i just said that IF they didn't write their lyrics then maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously ( which doesn't really matter anymore since you already said that she did.)


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

the401 said:


> oh well I'm not misogynistic ( heard of this word before, weird word lol) i mean you can't hate women as a whole...... there are types of women that i completely hate. But there are ones that i really like too lol.
> 
> anyways yea i mean if she writes her own lyrics then of course it is to be taken seriously since as an ISFP that's more of an "musical type" myself.
> 
> ...


Ok I guess this was your way of asking for sources since you aren't personally familiar with them? Yes, Eminem, Lana del Rey, Jared Leto and Morrissey all write lyrics, or I would not have used them as examples. I just didn't understand if you were questioning the entire field of composing popular music, or just Lana del Reys ability to write her own lyrics, because she's a girl. 

Ok.


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## the401 (Mar 1, 2015)

Thalassa said:


> Ok I guess this was your way of asking for sources since you aren't personally familiar with them? Yes, Eminem, Lana del Rey, Jared Leto and Morrissey all write lyrics, or I would not have used them as examples. I just didn't understand if you were questioning the entire field of composing popular music, or just Lana del Reys ability to write her own lyrics, because she's a girl.
> 
> Ok.


hmmmmm interesting...... it seems like you have interpreted my message in a very weird way (in my opinion)

but no i didn't mean anything that you thought i meant lol.

i enjoy all types of music though, my favorite band is "Simple Plan" if you ever heard of them. i find that the lead singer of simple plan is an ISFP. 

do you think this is lyrics of an ISFP?


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

Chesire Tower said:


> Yes, I apologise for not being clearer. I was not so much referring to stacking as to improper or unhealthy (I hate the word, "immature" -- too judgemental sounding - just like the word, "petty" which isn't even function related) Fi. If I were to make a thread on the proper or healthy uses of this function, I have a really amazing friend who could be the poster child for Fi at it's best, most profound, insightful and deep. I never tire of listening to her; since she helps me to get in touch with the deeper recesses of my soul - which not being Fi type, and a core E 5, isn't easy for me.


I wasn't criticising the OP for being judgmental or having a go at the four types who don't have dom or aux Fi although it does seem relevant to point out from time to time that no type is lesser than or greater than, just because. 

It's more that when you look at the pairings of the ESFP compared to the ENFP with Se-Fi and Ne-Fi you get all differences of ideas about Fi. Similarly if you get an ENTJ compared to an ESTJ with inferior Fi it's different again. If you ask me about tertiary Fi in an INTJ and how it might look when that person is being immature it would be different again. There's Te and there is Ni to cloud the idea of a function and it's not easily separated. That's what makes it fraught to say Fi on it's own and how it could be seen in immature type people. I tend to put arseholes, immature people etc into their separate categories outside MBTI mostly because they don't make sense in terms of cognitive functions alone and usually here people asking about specific types aren't exactly sure what type they are talking about (or are sure but wrong, or just confused).

If we were to ask an ISTP, ISFP, ENFJ or an ESFP and all about their Ni and how they might see that function play out in an immature person I wonder what the consensus there would be. Would there be one? I think I pulled a pooper valve trying to think about that.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

bethdeth said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent post! There is an MBTI web site that I saw and I can't remember the name of it but it showed how all of the functions were affected by the stacking, which I found fascinating. If anyone knows the name of that site; I would greatly appreciate you letting me know.


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## TwistedMuses (May 20, 2013)

bigstupidgrin said:


> I'll talk to Fi since I'm Fi-Dom.
> 
> Immature Fi can go in three ways, two are ignorant, the other is annoying.
> 
> ...


I am a Fi-Ne dom, and when I was unhealthy in my teens, my thinking was 'I do not fit into this World. I feel a need to fix myself and be loved. I am wrong about everything and I need to fix my outlook in life.'


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

TwistedMuses said:


> I am a Fi-Ne dom, and when I was unhealthy in my teens, my thinking was 'I do not fit into this World. I feel a need to fix myself and be loved. I am wrong about everything and I need to fix my outlook in life.'


Pretty much how it went for me too.


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## triste (Apr 29, 2015)

the401 said:


> well i mean, the thing about the Fi dom is that imo it's more controllable with the INFP's since like i said before "Ne makes them able to see the world in an more objective way".
> 
> like for example they INFP's tend to not take things as personally because they accept the other possibilities to be also true. like for example if somebody said " you are ( insert insult) " the INFP might not take that as an offense because having Ne and being an intuitive type they think well "maybe he's in a bad mood? " or " he just angry it's not what he really thinks" " he's just setting off steam " and etc........
> 
> ...


If someone insults me, I take it personally. My Ne tends to take what was said and overanalyze all the ways it was insulting. I'm also very sensitive to insult and often find it more deeply offending because I see the depths of what was said.


Usually I will distance myself since I don't need that kind of negativity in my life. Talking back usually starts with someone insulting my friends...and then you'd better watch out because I'll verbally tear them limb from limb.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I find myself to be a bit of a bully, cold, and demanding.


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## Retsu (Aug 12, 2011)

I HATE MY FEELINGS I DON'T WANT THEM GO AWAY EVERYBODY
Is what I am like at the best of times.


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## TimeWillTell (Jan 14, 2015)

Chesire Tower said:


> Excellent post! There is an MBTI web site that I saw and I can't remember the name of it but it showed how all of the functions were affected by the stacking, which I found fascinating. If anyone knows the name of that site; I would greatly appreciate you letting me know.


If you manage to get that info, please forward here or PM.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

^ditto, might as well post it here


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