# It's a boy! Now...to circumcise or to not?



## Kebachi

I'm 7 months now and we found out from the latest ultrasound that it's most likely going to be a boy. 

Now the age old debate has come up, should we circumcise him or not?

My husband wants to circumcise, I'm more on the fence. I want my son to have the option to decide, and I feel as though it might rob him of something to decide for him when he's just a baby and unable to choose for himself. The idea of deciding something for him that he might one day regret and can never get back really bugs me.
Here's a hypothetical example: if our child turned out to be a hermaphrodite I would be against the removal of any of their sexual organs because I would want them to have the option to decide what it is that they want to do/be when they have the wherewithal to make those sorts of decisions. 

On the other hand, I've done a bit of research and have found that there are some good health benefits to circumcision and that's it's WAY easier on someone to have the surgery done sooner rather than later.

I've cross referenced a lot, yet sadly nothing has really helped me come to a conclusion on the matter. Health care professionals seem to hold no strong opinion one way or the other as this still seems to remain as more of a religious/traditional issue than anything else. My husband strongly supports circumcision for the health and hygiene of it.

While debating on the subject with him and I found this image (NSFW, so beware) that compares the two:
http://www.thedailytransmission.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Natural-v-Cut.jpg

It seems as though the foreskin does keep the head more lubricated and protected, which probably also increases sensitivity. I would think as long as the extra effort is taken to keep the foreskin clean then hygiene shouldn't be an issue. Though my husband thinks that this could be a biased image, as it looks as though the uncircumcised penis is from a much younger individual than the other one. 

Anyways, TL;DR
I'm open to all opinions on the subject!


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution

Unless there is a medical issue, nobody should be getting a foreskin off a young infant.


----------



## Bassmasterzac

First off, congratulations. Second off, do not circumcise the boy! I repeat, do not circumcise him.


----------



## Kebachi

After reading this it seems like circumcision is better overall: Adult Circumcision Stories - Men Circumcised As Adults Tell It As It Is...

What do you guys think?


----------



## Kebachi

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> Unless there is a medical issue, nobody should be getting a foreskin off a young infant.


Noted, but would you care to elucidate as to why? What are your reasons behind your belief?



Bassmasterzac said:


> First off, congratulations. Second off, do not circumcise the boy! I repeat, do not circumcise him.


Thank you! Also why? What are your reasons/opinions on the subject?


----------



## Kynx

I live in the UK and I don't know anyone who has been circumcised except for medical reasons. I have 2 sons who are both uncircumcised and a daily bath or shower is all that's needed to keep them clean. The stuff in the article about uncircumcised penis' having a smell and causing condoms to come off is completely ridiculous imo. Keep them clean and they don't smell, it's that simple. People will say anything to justify a decision that they can't undo. All these supposed disadvantages to being uncircumcised are not apparent in the numerous men and boys who live in the UK where circumcision isn't the norm. They're perfectly fine. It's really not necessary.


----------



## Roland Khan

I know I would've appreciated having the option for myself...


----------



## Bassmasterzac

Kebachi said:


> Noted, but would you care to elucidate as to why? What are your reasons behind your belief?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Also why? What are your reasons/opinions on the subject?


1) you'll make him look Euro.

2) you don't mess with a man's hot dog popsicle 

3) circumcision only has 1 benefit - easier hygiene 

4) the downsides are you lose sensitivity and shit who wants that? plus it'll make his peter looks bigger and who doesn't want their son to have a jack in the bean stalk?


----------



## WitchPuddin

I haven't fact-checked this or anything, but I think it has some interesting points.
Keep in mind it's by college humor, in case you're sensitive to crude humor.


----------



## Word Dispenser

Kebachi said:


> After reading this it seems like circumcision is better overall: Adult Circumcision Stories - Men Circumcised As Adults Tell It As It Is...
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think it's a ridiculously bad source, but it doesn't really matter.

I would suggest not doing it.

If your son wants to do it later in life, it will be his choice. He may end up thanking you profusely for not doing it. And, I bet he probably will.

Well... If people are more open about talking about such things in the future... Which they probably will.

But, if not, he will thank you in secret, which is just as good.

I highly doubt you'll find him screaming in rage, "WHY WASN'T I CIRCUMSIIIIIIZED!?"


----------



## the_natrix

If I ever had a choice in the matter I wouldn't have. Seriously though, who thought elective surgery without the patient's choice was a good idea?


----------



## Kebachi

WitchPuddin said:


> I haven't fact-checked this or anything, but I think it has some interesting points.
> *Keep in mind it's by **college humor*, in case you're sensitive to crude humor.


lol, that was pretty funny XD and informative even though it was slightly biased (only slightly at least). There actually are benefits to circumcision other than hygiene, that was about the only thing they got wrong. Thank you for the video!

Here are the pros from WebMD:
Circumcision: Get the Facts, Benefits, Risks & More

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of some sexually transmitted diseases in men.
Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).

In general the likelihood of all of those issues can be reduced with proper hygiene with the exception of phimosis. If our child has that we might have to circumcise so he doesn't experience pain and infections. That's more of an individual need basis though.


I'm having a hard time making a decision because I'm seeing more bias in a lot of posts here as opposed to sound arguments. Still, all information is useful so keep it coming!


----------



## the_natrix

Kebachi said:


> I'm having a hard time making a decision because I'm seeing more bias in a lot of posts here as opposed to sound arguments. Still, all information is useful so keep it coming!


If you ask for OPINIONS you're going to get bias. Besides, have you heard of researcher bias?


----------



## incision

Why in the world would anyone want to mutilate the genitals of babies? The practice of circumcision came from a time when paper was made from papyrus leaves and mummies were de rigueur. Isn't it time to enter the 21st century where we try not to torture our children?


----------



## Wild

I say don't do it. I find the practice to be barbaric. 

I doubt he'll ever have any issues with the foreskin so long as he washes it properly. If he does have issues, he can always get it cut off later. If you cut him and he wants it back later, he's likely to be bitter about what you did to him.


----------



## Kebachi

the_natrix said:


> If you ask for OPINIONS you're going to get bias. Besides, have you heard of researcher bias?


That's obvious, I was just surprised by how one sided all the posts are so far. I was hoping for arguments on both sides.


----------



## incision

Kebachi said:


> That's obvious, I was just surprised by how one sided all the posts are so far. I was hoping for arguments on both sides.


There are no quantifiable benefits to genital mutilation. Perhaps there was practical/logical benefit, when sand, dust and a lack of hygiene dominated.


----------



## Sinsinity

I barely have any knowledge on this subject at all, but isn't this a case where you don't do it if you're unsure? In the same way that someone who's unsure if they want a tattoo or not probably shouldn't get one.


----------



## FlaviaGemina

Yikes. Why would you even consider that unless you have religious or medical reasons?


----------



## Misaki

Horrible idea. I'm a bit late to the party, but several others have made a good case against this. Unfortunately, a lot of the research on this is heavily politicized and the practice is perpetuated by religious and cultural traditions rather than serious medical considerations. Another question you might want to ask yourself is whether you think this should be up to you or your child in the future.


----------



## Red Panda

planetanarchy said:


> Just go to to any health forum or anyone complaining of chronic UTI,s BV, etc. It's everywhere.
> 
> Actually, a place that has a higher rate of infection is a great to make these studies, where the cause and effects can be observed at a fast rate, whereas men in other countries have milder subclinical infections- but end up with cysts or testicular cancer later in life and the damage is already done. That's what you want!


If forums were representative of the world, every other person I'd meet would be an INFP. 

We're not discussing the chronic effects of infections though, but whether circumcision matters as a preventive measure in the first world, where hygienic conditions are very good.


----------



## planetanarchy

Red Panda said:


> If that's what you understand from my posts then it only reinforces my initial statement that you are bitter about this subject.


No, I'm not bitter about the subject, again, speaking for my feelings: I observed your own statements that said men's experiences are more valuable anecdotes than others.


----------



## Red Panda

planetanarchy said:


> No, I'm not bitter about the subject, again, speaking for my feelings: I observed your own statements that said men's experiences are more valuable anecdotes than others.


goodness...
I NEVER said that
I said that if enough men complain about losing sensation after circumcision then perhaps it's true and should be studied. If women had dicks I would have included them as well.


----------



## planetanarchy

Red Panda said:


> If forums were representative of the world, every other person I'd meet would be an INFP.
> 
> We're not discussing the chronic effects of infections though, but whether circumcision matters as a preventive measure in the first world, where hygienic conditions are very good.


Try reading that again.


----------



## planetanarchy

Red Panda said:


> goodness...
> I NEVER said that
> I said that if enough men complain about losing sensation after circumcision then perhaps it's true and should be studied. If women had dicks I would have included them as well.


I actually am speaking for my boyfriend's experience as well. The issue is that these things are asymptomic, in the west, we still have the same infections as uganda, but its subclinical and goes untreated- there is a reason why the researchers value the studies done there.

The same thing about studying super bacteria that grows in ponds, we would rather study it there, to understand how to treat smaller colonies that can hit our water source in smaller colonies- unrecognized unseen, missed, etc. Hope that finally computes for you.


----------



## Red Panda

planetanarchy said:


> I actually am speaking for my boyfriend's experience as well. The issue is that these things are asymptomic, in the west, we still have the same infections as uganda, but its subclinical and goes untreated- there is a reason why the researchers value the studies done there.
> 
> The same thing about studying super bacteria that grows in ponds, we would rather study it there, to understand how to treat smaller colonies that can hit our water source in smaller colonies- unrecognized unseen, missed, etc. Hope that finally computes for you.


Citations needed.


----------



## planetanarchy

Seriously, I'm not going to google things for you for commonly known facts such as STD's and infections going undetected in men.


----------



## AesSidhe

Copy paste from a Skype conversation I'm having:

Yippy: "Plus. Males are naturally uncircumsized. Why would the natural state of the penis cause more difficulties during sex than the unnatural state of the penis? Doesn't make sense"

Sidhe: "uh huh that's why male cats for example have brambles: to get hooked"

Yippy: "And they need those for reproduction. Nature creates everything for a reason. If there is any problem with having sex with someone who's uncircumsized and subsequent bleeding it is down to the individual. There is no problem with uncircumsized penises in general.

That's a sentence I never ushered before >.> haha."


----------



## Red Panda

planetanarchy said:


> Seriously, I'm not going to google things for you for commonly known facts such as STD's and infections going undetected in men.


Simply claiming that we still have the same infection rates as in Uganda is not enough to convince anyone. 
Nor that undetected infections in men are statistically significant for infecting women with UTIs, so much so that the best solution would be circumcision. 
If you've done all that research why not post it and educate everyone.


----------



## planetanarchy

Red Panda said:


> Simply claiming that we still have the same infection rates as in Uganda is not enough to convince anyone.
> Nor that undetected infections in men are statistically significant for infecting women with UTIs, so much so that the best solution would be circumcision.
> If you've done all that research why not post it and educate everyone.


Well, I can't post hours upon hours of discussion with academics who are leading these studies, nor do they want to jump into these forums about circumcision, they recognize the anti-circ crowd is anti-facts as well. Believe me, I have tried, but after reading anticircumcision activists write and how they shame parents and doctors- I see why. I also have some background in mircobiology/neurobiology, but mostly labwork anyway. 

So, the nuance of every detail of how I had sex with my boyfriend can be discussed and critiqued to no end and you want to know every detail about our hygiene habits and shaved hairs, yet the s nuance of what these studies are saying, is going ignored or only selctively looked into by you, because it's in another country where you beleive hygeine is much worse and human anatomies are drastically different. I find the bias and way of blame and focus very interesting. I'm glad I'm not polarized in either direction for or against circumcision- and can weight in the necessities and deal with the facts in this case. Anti-circ should stop shaming parents who may have to face this decision for very real health issues, who know from their personal experience that simply "washing" may not be enough. Just like we know how to tell people suffering other conditions with our ignorance on how to treat their problems.


----------



## planetanarchy

Red Panda said:


> Simply claiming that we still have the same infection rates as in Uganda is not enough to convince anyone.
> Nor that undetected infections in men are statistically significant for infecting women with UTIs, so much so that the best solution would be circumcision.
> If you've done all that research why not post it and educate everyone.



Strawman galore. #1 I never advocated circumcision or said its the "best" or the "only solution. A bacteria strain of salmonella, wheter that colony is 500, or 100,000mil per square inch, is still the same bacteria. 

The statistics are significant for infections in women, already provided some here, you can do the rest.


----------



## Strayfire

Red Panda said:


> Anecdote vs anecdote.


Hehehe; you know what they say at uni: "plural of anecdote is not evidence". 

Silly 

c;



planetanarchy said:


> Strawman galore. #1 I never advocated circumcision or said its the "best" or the "only solution. A bacteria strain of salmonella, wheter that colony is 500, or 100,000mil per square inch, is still the same bacteria.
> 
> The statistics are significant for infections in women, already provided some here, you can do the rest.


This v



Red Panda said:


> Yes but how many complain about having UTIs even after both they and their man adopt more appropriate hygienic conditions, or use condoms?
> The study you provided was in Uganda, a place completely different to EU and US in regards to hygiene and disease.
> *facepalm* at your assumption in the end


Uganda I can understand. There's so many STDs floating around; rampant rape etc. 

But the story is different in the Western world. 

If we use this logic, based on American statistics, starving children in Africa should go on diets because of overwhelming obesity in America.


----------



## planetanarchy

Stray Venus said:


> Hehehe; you know what they say at uni: "plural of anecdote is not evidence".
> 
> Silly
> 
> c;
> 
> 
> 
> This v
> 
> 
> 
> Uganda I can understand. There's so many STDs floating around; rampant rape etc.
> 
> But the story is different in the Western world.
> 
> If we use this logic, based on American statistics, starving children in Africa should go on diets because of overwhelming obesity in America.



That's a pretty weak analogy and does not bare a direct link. As I stated earlier, doctors in ob-gyn clinics recognize that women are getting these infections from uncircumicezed men- as another bonus, it's worse men who use their own saliva as lubrication on themselves. But here is some western samples since you think penises in africa are dirtier. Male Circumcision for the Prevention of Acquisition and Transmission of Sexually Transmitted Infections I don't know about you, but there is some kind of racist air to all that denial of value of the uganda samplling- not all places in africa are in the poorest of conditions.


----------



## Strayfire

planetanarchy said:


> That's a pretty weak analogy and does not bare a direct link. As I stated earlier, doctors in ob-gyn clinics recognize that women are getting these infections from uncircumicezed men- as another bonus, it's worse men who use their own saliva as lubrication on themselves. But here is some western samples since you think penises in africa are dirtier. Male Circumcision for the Prevention of Acquisition and Transmission of Sexually Transmitted Infections I don't know about you, but there is some kind of racist air to all that- not all places in africa are in the poorest of conditions.





> The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) male circumcision policy states that while there are potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision, the *data are insufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.*


Well it does say this in your article.

Might be doesn't cut it. 

Tamiflu might help against pandemics of flu. It might not.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...unless-drug-companies-release-all-their-data/


----------



## planetanarchy

Stray Venus said:


> Well it does say this in your article.



where did I ever reccommend routine circumcision?


----------



## aendern

Stray Venus said:


> Hehehe; you know what they say at uni: "plural of anecdote is not evidence".


I've never heard that, but I LOVE IT!


----------



## Strayfire

planetanarchy said:


> where did I ever reccommend routine circumcision?


Well you did recommend your article as reading material. 

Its conclusion? We have no clue because of a lack of data.

<333

Edit: It has been brought to my attention that I had some crap phrasing issues: here in depth are my gripes about the research:

I meant that it doesn't provide enough of a discussion about potential side effects to come with with an adequate personal conclusion. 



> While the rates of neonatal circumcision complications vary widely between studies, the generally accepted rate is between 0.2% and 0.6% of operations. [SUP]1[/SUP][SUP],[/SUP][SUP]65[/SUP][SUP],[/SUP][SUP]66[/SUP] The most common complications are bleeding and local infection.[SUP]65[/SUP][SUP],[/SUP][SUP]66[/SUP] The bleeding, which is usually a slight oozing, is most often controlled with pressure, and the infection is treated with wound care or antibiotics.[SUP]67[/SUP] While other complications such as phimosis and concealed penis, adhesions, fistula, meatitis, meatal stenosis, and injury to the glans may occur,[SUP]68[/SUP] they are extremely rare.[SUP]1[/SUP][SUP],[/SUP][SUP]65[/SUP][SUP]-[/SUP][SUP]67[/SUP]


I want to know how serious these so called complications are. What is considered a complication? 

Does the bleeding stop quickly or does it keep bleeding despite the pressure? 

How bad are the infections? Life threatening? They are treated with antibiotics but to what effect? 

DO PEOPLE DIE FROM THIS PROCEDURE OR ATTAIN PERMANENT DAMAGE? 

Also the study makes no mention as to precisely how many transpeople get circumcised.



Torai said:


> Another argument in favor of uncircumcised: If your child happens to be a girl, a fully intact foreskin gives her better options with regards to surgery down there if she decides to do that.


From what I understand; circumcision limits the option on bottom genital surgery as stated earlier. 

That's an important part of improving one's bodily image (if female). 

Since we do not know what % of the population is trans we cannot be certain how much of an impact circumcision has. 

Estimates vary; but statistics are difficult with the inherent difficulty and conceptual trouble with self-identifying as trans. 

Obviously the complication stats do not count gender dysphoria as a complication, so in reality the problem extends far further than just medical complications. 



> Among adults, there have been anecdotal reports of circumcision causing sexual dysfunction or decreased satisfaction. However, there were no reported differences in sexual satisfaction in the randomized study arms in either the Ugandan or Kenyan male circumcision trials or among men before and after they were circumcised.


I hope that future studies incorporate statistics that show precisely the rate of compliant of sexual dysfunction in the Western population and whether they are statistically significant or not; that should better determine any potential impacts rather than just dismissing them as anecdote. 

It is physically impossible to do a double blind trial (the Gold standard of science) with circumcision so this is obviously not ideal. 

I suspect there could be element of fear complaining regarding what many might consider help because of the power differentials between African and Western men. 

My Anthropology professor always said for the most part people in developing nations are often scared of complaining to the officials or chieftains that represent them. 

Perhaps the chieftians are scared the NGOs/government will stop giving them aid etc. or increase taxes etc. 

Perhaps there is a cultural element about not talking about bedroom matters to the local statistician. 

I believe that a stronger Anthropological research needs to be taken to address potential problems as correlation =/ causation (that and it potentially conflicts with the Western data as hinted by the author). 

I am not a doctor or a biologist. I will refrain from critiquing their immunology research, but I strongly believe that the article does not properly address counter concerns in a scientific manner. It is easy to point your results in the direction of your research if you do not adequately measure and dismiss the opposing arguments.


----------



## planetanarchy

Stray Venus said:


> Well you did recommend your article as reading material.
> 
> Its conclusion? We have no clue because of a lack of data.
> 
> <333


Now you lie.

CONCLUSIONSThe World Health Organization/Joint United Nations Program on HIV/AIDS has concluded that “the research evidence that male circumcision is efficacious in reducing sexual transmission of HIV from women to men is compelling … and has been proven beyond reasonable doubt.”17 In 2007, the American Urological Association revised their policy to state that “circumcision should be presented as an option for health benefits.”74 However, the AAP, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and American Medical Association are likely to have the greatest influence on parental decisions and insurance coverage for neonatal circumcision in the United States. With the mounting evidence that male circumcision decreases viral STIs, genital ulcer disease, and penile inflammatory disorders in men, and bacterial vaginosis, _T vaginalis_ infection, and genital ulcer disease in their female partners, it is time for the AAP policy to fully reflect these current data.

Go to:​Acknowledgments


----------



## AesSidhe

planetanarchy said:


> That's a pretty weak analogy and does not bare a direct link. As I stated earlier, doctors in ob-gyn clinics recognize that women are getting these infections from uncircumicezed men- as another bonus, it's worse men who use their own saliva as lubrication on themselves. But here is some western samples since you think penises in africa are dirtier. Male Circumcision for the Prevention of Acquisition and Transmission of Sexually Transmitted Infections I don't know about you, but there is some kind of racist air to all that denial of value of the uganda samplling- not all places in africa are in the poorest of conditions.


I gave the researchers a quick background check, and on the quick check I already found out 2 of the 3 researchers are Jewish: this makes the research biased ...


----------



## planetanarchy

AesSidhe said:


> I gave the researchers a quick background check, and on the quick check I already found out 2 of the 3 researchers are Jewish: this makes the research biased ...


Yeah, this statement continues to prove how many anticircs on the internet are anti-facts.

I would have said anti-semetic, but really you would have found excuses regardless of their ethnic or religous background.


----------



## Scrabbletray

I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised penises until I was an adult. I thought they all just looked like mine. :frustrating:


----------



## Razare

Kebachi said:


> My husband wants to circumcise, I'm more on the fence. I want my son to have the option to decide, and I feel as though it might rob him of something to decide for him when he's just a baby and unable to choose for himself.


The problem with this idea, of him choosing himself, is no grown man will make that choice because it is going to hurt like hell.

That's not to say we might not want it done. It's much better to do it to us before we have memory of events.

This way, it never "hurts" because we can't remember it hurting. I was circumcised and I am thankful it happened before I was grown. I also can't imagine my penis being any other way.

I think ultimately that's the key, whichever you decide, when your son grows up, he probably wont be able to imagine his penis being any other way.


----------



## aendern

Razare said:


> The problem with this idea, of him choosing himself, is no grown man will make that choice because it is going to hurt like hell.


This is not only untrue logically but also in reality. Some men do choose to be circumcised as adults.



> It's much better to do it to us before we have memory of events. This way, it never "hurts" because we can't remember it hurting.


Your only argument is that "it hurts"? That's pretty wimpy.



> I also can't imagine my penis being any other way. I think ultimately that's the key, whichever you decide, when your son grows up, he probably wont be able to imagine his penis being any other way.


This is kind of the whole point. His natural penis is taken away from him and he never gets the chance to experience it or make the decision for himself.

Maybe, like you, he will be perfectly okay with that. Maybe, like other people, he won't.

But what if he won't? Is that worth it?


----------



## Apolo

a1b2c3d4 said:


> I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised penises until I was an adult. I thought they all just looked like mine. :frustrating:


I knew early on via locker rooms, but in the places I lived as a kid, which were 12 different states, uncircumcised members where the minority.


----------



## Razare

emberfly said:


> This is not only untrue logically but also in reality. Some men do choose to be circumcised as adults.
> 
> 
> Your only argument is that "it hurts"? That's pretty wimpy.
> 
> 
> This is kind of the whole point. His natural penis is taken away from him and he never gets the chance to experience it or make the decision for himself.
> 
> Maybe, like you, he will be perfectly okay with that. Maybe, like other people, he won't.
> 
> But what if he won't? Is that worth it?


I don't care if she does or doesn't.

I am just saying it was a benefit for me because I didn't have to walk around for a week holding my crotch, and I get to have my penis just the way I want it.


----------



## Dakitty

[No message]


----------



## Sourpuss

There is no good reason not to let your son decide for himself when he is older. It's his body, it should be his choice.


----------



## koalaroo

The scientific consensus on this is that this is ultimately not a question of science, but that of ethics.


----------



## Misaki

Dakitty said:


> As the father of the kid in question, I've read over some of the "advice" my wife was given on this thread, and wow... This has been a true eye opener. I was on the fence somewhat leaning toward circumcision at first, but now it seems like a no brainer.
> 
> If there are this many retarded folk ready to bash on a woman just for asking for information, then the anti-circumcision folk have done a fine job in proving to me that the bias against is even worse than the bias for. Folk like Emberfly and Shotophop have literally contributed nothing but personal hate and fear to this topic, and made me think that much lower of my already low opinion of the Personality Cafe on the whole. Thank you for removing any doubts I had about the stance I took in regards to the health of my son, and please go choke on some foreskin you horrible human beings.


Many did not bash, and some strong points were raised. Very big of you to judge an entire community based on a few people disagreeing with you though. Your final comment makes you sound like a complete imbecile (and based on the general consensus here, those of us with foreskin will have to pass up your request - we tend to like it intact, thanks). My sincerest condolences for your son.


----------



## koalaroo

Dakitty said:


> As the father of the kid in question, I've read over some of the "advice" my wife was given on this thread, and wow... This has been a true eye opener. I was on the fence somewhat leaning toward circumcision at first, but now it seems like a no brainer.
> 
> If there are this many retarded folk ready to bash on a woman just for asking for information, then the anti-circumcision folk have done a fine job in proving to me that the bias against is even worse than the bias for. Folk like Emberfly and Shotophop have literally contributed nothing but personal hate and fear to this topic, and made me think that much lower of my already low opinion of the Personality Cafe on the whole. Thank you for removing any doubts I had about the stance I took in regards to the health of my son, and please go choke on some foreskin you horrible human beings.


So, you're going to do unnecessary ELECTIVE surgery on your infant because people on an internet forum told your wife to do so was unethical? It's actually not a matter of medical science, but a matter of ethics. Frankly, it's unethical to perform this surgery on an infant.


----------



## serenitative

The whole practice is 100% unnecessary.


----------



## Dakitty

Yes, and I shall continue my reign of tyranny by kicking no fewer than five small dogs in the teeth, then urinate on every flag in the city! And not even Batman can stop my diabolical scheme! Muahahahaha!


----------



## Aletheia

Dakitty said:


> As the father of the kid in question, I've read over some of the "advice" my wife was given on this thread, and wow... This has been a true eye opener. I was on the fence somewhat leaning toward circumcision at first, but now it seems like a no brainer.
> 
> If there are this many retarded folk ready to bash on a woman just for asking for information, then the anti-circumcision folk have done a fine job in proving to me that the bias against is even worse than the bias for. Folk like Emberfly and Shotophop have literally contributed nothing but personal hate and fear to this topic, and made me think that much lower of my already low opinion of the Personality Cafe on the whole. Thank you for removing any doubts I had about the stance I took in regards to the health of my son, and please go choke on some foreskin you horrible human beings.


Where is this personal hate and fear that you speak of? Horrible human beings?

I understand that this may be a personal matter for you or a sensitive topic. But most people who have read through the thread will likely see your response as lashing out in a very irrational way. You took the opinions of others, that are in opposition to your own, and vilified them. I hope that, whatever decision you and your wife come to on this matter, it's made with a level head and sound reasoning.


----------



## Misaki

Dakitty said:


> Yes, and I shall continue my reign of tyranny by kicking no fewer than five small dogs in the teeth, then urinate on every flag in the city! And not even Batman can stop my diabolical scheme! Muahahahaha!


I really hope you're a troll, and not actually a father. If the latter is the case, I am genuinely concerned for your son.


----------



## Kebachi

Shouta Misaki said:


> Many did not bash, and some strong points were raised. Very big of you to judge an entire community based on a few people disagreeing with you though. Your final comment makes you sound like a complete imbecile (and based on the general consensus here, those of us with foreskin will have to pass up your request - we tend to like it intact, thanks). My sincerest condolences for your son.


This post just furthers his point, please do not resort to insulting my husband. He's also been lurking the forum for a bit, so his annoyance is not over this thread alone. All we wanted originally was information from both sides on the issue. I can understand his frustration on the matter as I've felt it as well. I haven't appreciated the insinuations and insults I've received for simply mulling over the issue and wanting to engage in civilized discourse over it. It's amusing really, seeing as I'm against circumcision. People like to post, they don't like to read. Much like offline life, it's all about who's the loudest with their opinion while completely missing the point. 

---

This thread has served to remind me that I'm very fortunate to have met someone like my husband. We can talk about anything, even debate on touchy subjects like this, without insulting the other's viewpoint. I've never felt more lucky to have him in my life than when I'm reminded of how special he is compared to the masses.

If folk want to continue to argue and my husband chooses to continue trolling then that's fine (it cracks me up when he does so). I'm pretty much done with this thread myself, and will be taking my research elsewhere. Thank you to those who posted in a logical fashion, irregardless of the side taken. Your posts have been very helpful!


----------



## Misaki

Kebachi said:


> This post just furthers his point, please do not resort to insulting my husband. He's also been lurking the forum for a bit, so his annoyance is not over this thread alone. All we wanted originally was information from both sides on the issue. I can understand his frustration on the matter as I've felt it as well. I haven't appreciated the insinuations and insults I've received for simply mulling over the issue and wanting to engage in civilized discourse over it. It's amusing really, seeing as I'm against circumcision. People like to post, they don't like to read. Much like offline life, it's all about who's the loudest with their opinion while completely missing the point.
> 
> ---
> 
> This thread has served to remind me that I'm very fortunate to have met someone like my husband. We can talk about anything, even debate on touchy subjects like this, without insulting the other's viewpoint. I've never felt more lucky to have him in my life than when I'm reminded of how special he is compared to the masses.
> 
> If folk want to continue to argue and my husband chooses to continue trolling then that's fine (it cracks me up when he does so). I'm pretty much done with this thread myself, and will be taking my research elsewhere. Thank you to those who posted in a logical fashion, irregardless of the side taken. Your posts have been very helpful!


Look, this is an online forum; you're going to get a mixed bag of people. It's rather astounding that after what your husband said, you can go on and spout this nonsense. I also wouldn't be primarily concerned with me insulting your husband, as your husband evidently insults himself.


----------



## Dakitty

Alas, I am the genuine and true father of the child. It's why my wife's picture matches up with mine, as they're from the same source image that is nearly impossible to find online~

Woe and misery obviously await my poor son, as his father is a pro-circ monster who thinks that the only choice is the choice Da-Kitn, alien misanthrope and super villain, gives from atop his throne of cute animal skulls and foreskin bindings!

Shouta's terrible dramatics aside, I've actually been researching with my wife a fair deal, and think that we've come to a conclusion based on fair research and consultations with folk who've been cut at birth, post teens, or not at all. It's just a shame only a handful of posters kept this thread civil, but as I've noticed from lurking around here it tends to be the norm on Personality Cafe.


----------



## The Chameleon

a1b2c3d4 said:


> I didn't even know there was such a thing as uncircumcised penises until I was an adult. I thought they all just looked like mine. :frustrating:





Apolo said:


> I knew early on via locker rooms, but in the places I lived as a kid, which were 12 different states, uncircumcised members where the minority.


Oh my god, I can't even imagine living like that :O
uncut is like
*w*


----------



## Kebachi

Shouta Misaki said:


> Look, this is an online forum; you're going to get a mixed bag of people. It's rather astounding that after what your husband said, you can go on and spout this nonsense. I also wouldn't be primarily concerned with me insulting your husband, as your husband evidently insults himself.


Saying things like: "My sincerest condolences for your son." is a pretty disparaging and immature thing to say to someone just because you don't agree with their opinion on something. This is the sort of thing that has annoyed us, you're not the only one to post such a sentiment here.


----------



## Misaki

Dakitty said:


> Alas, I am the genuine and true father of the child. It's why my wife's picture matches up with mine, as they're from the same source image that is nearly impossible to find online~
> 
> Woe and misery obviously await my poor son, as his father is a pro-circ monster who thinks that the only choice is the choice Da-Kitn, alien misanthrope and super villain, gives from atop his throne of cute animal skulls and foreskin bindings!
> 
> Shouta's terrible dramatics aside, I've actually been researching with my wife a fair deal, and think that we've come to a conclusion based on fair research and consultations with folk who've been cut at birth, post teens, or not at all. It's just a shame only a handful of posters kept this thread civil, but as I've noticed from lurking around here it tends to be the norm on Personality Cafe.


You flatter me. I could never hope to be the drama queen you've proven to be. If you're finished with your circumcision "research", I recommend taking some time to find a few kids help lines for (probable) future use.


----------



## Misaki

[No message]


----------



## Scrabbletray

Shouta Misaki said:


> You flatter me. I could never hope to be the drama queen you've proven to be. If you're finished with your circumcision "research", I recommend taking some time to find a few kids help lines for (probable) future use.


Are there even people who are circumcised who get mad about it later? I've never heard someone say, "I wish my parents hadn't circumcised me" before. Maybe someone did in this thread, but I'm not going to read 18 pages just looking for it.


----------



## Dakitty

I know all the child protective services numbers by heart, and have programmed my supercomputer to block them so that my son can never find aide against my nefarious schemes. He shall forever be a component in my world domination plot that hinges on his penis being violated, possibly repeatedly due to the would-be do-gooders like you preaching at my doorstep! Your insinuations only make the unborn's trauma that much deeper, which fuels my annihilatrix greatly! I did thank your posts, right?


----------



## Misaki

[No message]


----------



## Scrabbletray

Shouta Misaki said:


> Plenty. Although I didn't make that recommendation primarily because of a potential circumcision. This father who's recently surfaced sounds rather unhinged.


You just called his wife insane for marrying him. If this were the real world and we were all standing in a room together you would probably have gotten punched in the face for that and nobody would back you up because we would all think you deserved it.


----------



## Misaki

a1b2c3d4 said:


> You just called his wife insane for marrying him. If this were the real world and we were all standing in a room together you would probably have gotten punched in the face for that and nobody would back you up because we would all think you deserved it.


I didn't _call_ her insane. You also assume I was making reference to her decision to marry him. I was more so concerned with her odd sense of priority, given that she doesn't seem to find his comments disturbing. 

I had to ask because of the fact that, among other things, he's asked people to choke on their foreskin. Something that must not strike you as particularly concerning, given that you're more focused on me. If you actually look at some of the things he's said, it strikes me as a legitimate question.


----------



## Aletheia

Kebachi said:


> Saying things like: "My sincerest condolences for your son." is a pretty disparaging and immature thing to say to someone just because you don't agree with their opinion on something. This is the sort of thing that has annoyed us, you're not the only one to post such a sentiment here.


While I don't think certain things have been said in the best taste, I can see why certain people feel so strongly against circumcision. It seems so fundamentally unnecessary. To make such a huge decision based on what-ifs and inconclusive research would leave me with a very uneasy feeling. 

You talk about others' "immature" comments, yet I can't help but notice your husband blatantly trolling.


----------



## Jennywocky

a1b2c3d4 said:


> Are there even people who are circumcised who get mad about it later? I've never heard someone say, "I wish my parents hadn't circumcised me" before. Maybe someone did in this thread, but I'm not going to read 18 pages just looking for it.


Yes. There's actually organized groups of men who seek to have their foreskin surgically restored and/or go to therapy regarding their missing foreskin. I've talked to men (friends) who have been very angry about getting a circumcision and feel physically violated because of it. I'm sure you can find some if you Google around.

But I also have a lot of male friends who don't really think twice about it as well.


----------



## Scrabbletray

I can understand the philosophical argument, but it's not something I've ever even thought was an issue for anyone. I'm just amazed how passionate people are in this thread when I'd imagine the vast majority of people never feel any sort of annoyance over whether or not they were circumscribed.


----------



## Jennywocky

/mod hat on

Okay, due to the numerous personal comments in this thread (which we are still reviewing to see if any action is needed) and because the originators of the thread who were asking for advice have received the information they requested, we are closing this thread.

This is not a closing with prejudice; i.e., if you want to discuss circumcision in another thread outside of the context of the thread originators, please feel free. But making personal comments about other members based on their stance on this topic is not permissible. Please focus on discussion of the issue, not the people involved.

Thanks.

/mod hat off


----------

