# 8 vs counter phobic 6



## e.g (Feb 26, 2016)

I know these are look-alike types, but I never got a good explanation of how one can tell them apart?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

By stop considering them as look-alikes because they're frankly not. They are very different types and operate in very different ways.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

The two may only look alike on the surface. Enneagram type has more to do with what's driving behavior than simply behavior itself. You may want to just break down the label to make sense of the motivation.

counter-phobic = countering fear = behavior is a response to counter or overcome the fear one feels inside
type 8 could be responding to a number of things but it won't generally be fear


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## newbie const (Nov 26, 2015)

e.g said:


> I know these are look-alike types, but I never got a good explanation of how one can tell them apart?


They are very different imo.
CP 6:
More reactive and badass-wannabe
Anxious at a deeper level,can be panic-stricken easily
Feels personally attacked easily
Has a considerable amount of cerebral energy
Gesture is not solid,micro expressions can be seen easily

8:Solid presence,lack of micro gesture
More gut energy,more realxed
Not anxious naturally
Don't feel attacked easily.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

6 is like a thrashing palm tree in a storm. 
8 is like a concrete bulwark.


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## Tripod (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm very curious about the distinction between the two. I've done two enneagram tests and both showed 8w7, but I can't fully discount 6w7cp either. 

My friends tell me that I seem hardy in the face of challenges and seem surprised when I tell them that I do get frustrated and stressed out too. 

How does it feel like to be a counterphobic 6? Enneagram descriptions say that 6s aren't fully aware of their own anxiety so it's hard for me to tell between the cp6 and the type 8.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Tripod said:


> I'm very curious about the distinction between the two. I've done two enneagram tests and both showed 8w7, but I can't fully discount 6w7cp either.
> 
> My friends tell me that I seem hardy in the face of challenges and seem surprised when I tell them that I do get frustrated and stressed out too.
> 
> How does it feel like to be a counterphobic 6? Enneagram descriptions say that 6s aren't fully aware of their own anxiety so it's hard for me to tell between the cp6 and the type 8.


This is exactly why this whole debacle is so damn misleading. The real question is here: what do you fear more? Do you fear being disconnected, to be lonely, the only one in the universe with no guidance and support, or do you fear being (emotionally) vulnerable by being in touch with yourself and whatever feelings are there? 6s are often acutely aware of their pain and have a notion where they think pain should also be faced. From the point of view of cp6, the cp6 is the 6 that is the most likely to try to face their own pain and thus thinking they are overcoming it (there's a nice line from the song Throat Full of Glass that's very exemplary of type 6, that goes "Now I am blind, I can open my eyes" which seems contradictory, but to the point of view of the unhealthy 6, the blindness is what allows them to see because they've been so marked by pain they can finally see the truth of the world and that is how it is so rife of pain which is what makes them abandoned). 8s are by and large, extremely oblivious and numb to it, so there is nothing for them to face. To them, truth is about what they've gone through, what they have experienced. To 8, pain doesn't matter in this regard. 

Even if we break down 6 vs 8 like this:

Both can fear being weak
Both can strongly value loyalty
Both can fear being vulnerable (because it ties into a sense of weakness)
Both can be distrustful of others

How they conceptualize these things are widely different. A 6 fears being weak or being seen as weak because it taps into their sense of incompetence at leading life, that will no one trust them and support them further, that they will be abandoned and left alone. 8s fear being weak because they fear being taken (emotionally) advantage of. Being abandoned isn't an issue to them. 8s deal with rejection by rejecting first, and they rather be alone than being dependent or connected to other people. Intrinsically, a 6 is a 6, and their issues are different to that of an 8, whereas an 8 is an 8, and their issues are different to a 6.

Then there are other finer aspects of how 6s project and how 8s blame, too. Furthermore, a lot of people can be unaware of their deeper motivations and issues.This isn't explicit or unique to cp6. This is why I find the cp6 label so meaningless. An 8 can be just as out of touch with their fear as a 6 can, however, 6s intrinsically feel as if they are without support or guidance, that they lack the knowledge of how to navigate life. 8s are the very opposite of this and may trust their own ability to navigate life and get through problems too much and may even end up biting off more than they can chew. Both types can fear opening up to people and be dependent, but they do that for very different reasons.


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## Tripod (Mar 12, 2016)

Thanks Entropic, this is very informative.



Entropic said:


> Do you fear being disconnected, to be lonely, the only one in the universe with no guidance and support, or do you fear being (emotionally) vulnerable by being in touch with yourself and whatever feelings are there?


I do not fear being disconnected and alone without guidance and support. For me, it's more a concern for the physical consequences of old age, and that's something that money is able to partly alleviate. Whether justified or not, I feel perfectly capable of weathering life's storms on my own - even if the entire world abandons me, I will stubbornly soldier on. For me, it's not so much Throat Full of Glass' "Now I am blind, I can open my eyes", which I still struggle to grasp.

Instead, it's more Steve Perry's I Stand Alone:
"I embrace what others fear... Reaching for the sky I stand alone
I share my world with no one else...
Just the likes of me welcome here... there's no need for sympathy"

Estrangement isn't something I normally dwell upon. I fear being emotionally vulnerable more - the moments when these neglected, soft emotions get triggered and I discover to my horror that they actually exist, an open trap lying latent. Whenever these surface, I often feel that I owe it to myself to honour these emotions. However, it's uncomfortable and I avoid thinking about the implications of this discovery, choosing instead to tune them out by distracting myself with other preoccupations.

About a decade ago, I pinned down that while I hated being emotionally taken advantage of (I have had moments where I doubt if it's even a possibility), the idea of somebody taking advantage of my loved ones in order to take advantage of me, puts me into a blind rage. 



Entropic said:


> A 6 fears being weak or being seen as weak


I do not mind being viewed as weak, as being underestimated has its perks. If in my assessment I discover that I truly have a certain weakness, that gives me the drive to work hard at overcoming that weakness. If on the other hand, the perceived weakness is a false one, a part of me gets excited, because it could indicate an imminent encroachment, which usually means a legitimate excuse to switch into attack mode and tear into something or somebody, without having to be too concerned over the consequences (after all, they started it!).



Entropic said:


> 8s deal with rejection by rejecting first, and they rather be alone than being dependent or connected to other people... may trust their own ability to navigate life and get through problems too much and may even end up biting off more than they can chew.


If an initiative that I take up IRL doesn't work out in the direction I wanted it to, I go with the attitude: "fuck it, this isn't at all worth my time and effort" and "if I couldn't do it, fat chance that other person could. Even if he/she did, they merely got lucky, the circumstances were different, etc etc".


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

Entropic said:


> This is exactly why this whole debacle is so damn misleading. The real question is here: what do you fear more? Do you fear being disconnected, to be lonely, the only one in the universe with no guidance and support, or do you fear being (emotionally) vulnerable by being in touch with yourself and whatever feelings are there? 6s are often acutely aware of their pain and have a notion where they think pain should also be faced. From the point of view of cp6, the cp6 is the 6 that is the most likely to try to face their own pain and thus thinking they are overcoming it (there's a nice line from the song Throat Full of Glass that's very exemplary of type 6, that goes "Now I am blind, I can open my eyes" which seems contradictory, but to the point of view of the unhealthy 6, the blindness is what allows them to see because they've been so marked by pain they can finally see the truth of the world and that is how it is so rife of pain which is what makes them abandoned). 8s are by and large, extremely oblivious and numb to it, so there is nothing for them to face. To them, truth is about what they've gone through, what they have experienced. To 8, pain doesn't matter in this regard.
> 
> Even if we break down 6 vs 8 like this:
> 
> ...



that's inaccurate in my opinion like the stuff you have written on your short trip on don richard riso's former enneagram institute discussion board, to put it mildly.

on the eidb ( and other boards) which is an ennegram board (not primary a mbti board like personalitycafe) you have been typed as sp/so 6w7 on the basis of your posts and video clip as you might remember. well, on this board you selftype as sx/so 8w9...

so it's no surprise for me that you have a skewed understanding of 6 and 8 in my eyes.


victimhood is the inborn attitude of 6 or cp6. the child perspective towards authorities means overestimation of their power.

fear of punishement leads to the fundamental, everlasting doubt of 6 or cp6: dualism of obedience/ rebellion (contraobedience). rebellion can lead to fanatism btw...

8 is the antipode as this kind of depending makes you weak and vulnerable. 8 fears powerlessness.

(analogues to the power of 5 which
means inter alia avoiding giving (others , own emotions..whatever) anything too much power that could thwart the rely on the independent, objective understanding ability .)

it doesn't matter if 6 or cp6 says that hard times made her stronger. next day 6 or cp6 complains and puts the blame on "authorities" again for her suffering. 

it's about an inborn attitude you cannot influence by "encourager-thoughts" later.

no, it doesn't matter what happens, 8 believes, everything hardens, everything develops you further...so you can be thankful for everything in a way ...and in a way everything is like you want it to be..because that's what you believe.. motto:" what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 

8 believes that she is responsible for everything that has to do with herself. she is the authority by herself including everything e.g inner guidance, strength, power, lust and well-being etc..
so her will and own justice is essentiel. anger as the emotional main drive helps getting things done and waking up from inertia.

superego or fear of punishment ( death) and being without support, leading and protection of "authorities" (especially with 6w5 also intellectual autorities or spiritual model) leads to the attachment of 6 .

so 6 attaches importance to be more loyal, dutiful, conscientious and loveable, generally spoken.

the will of 8 can be abusive and without consideration for herself and others.

in addition to that 6 is a head type with more consciousness within the ratio cage whereas 8 uses more intuition/ instinct and suppresses things that trigger their vulnerability.

this unconsciousness has an important meaning with the inborn 8 pattern as denial and suppression of weakness supports the eightish self-confidence, ironcically or paradoxi-cally, if you want .

by contrast 6 or cp6 struggles with self-confidence because of the doubting mind rooted in awareness within the ratio cage.


etc ...


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bearlin said:


> that's inaccurate in my opinion like the stuff you have written on your short trip on don richard riso's former enneagram institute discussion board, to put it mildly.
> 
> on the eidb ( and other boards) which is an ennegram board (not primary a mbti board like personalitycafe) you have been typed as sp/so 6w7 on the basis of your posts and video clip as you might remember.
> 
> so it's no surprise for me that you have a skewed understanding of 6 and 8 *in my eyes.*


Your opinion is an opinion but not always rooted in fact. So let's get down to it then, with actual sources to support my point of view:



> *victimhood is the inborn attitude of 6 or cp6*. the child perspective towards authorities means overestimation of their power.


Incorrect. Victimhood is a very important feature for type 8 as well, however, 6 and 8 view victimhood differently. 6s identify as being the vicim, 8s identify as being the victimizer. These passages by Sandra Maitri all imply that 8s experience victimhood as children:

Most Eights, however, feel that they have been more or less completely stripped of Bieng at a very young age. An Eight's innermost feeling is that something terrible has happened, although on this preverbal and preconceptual level, he does not even have the concept of loss of contact with his depths. [...] Out of the eradication of his inner sense of oneness with Being which results in a sense of self and other - duality - arises the conviction that someone must be responsible for this terrible state of affairs. [...] In either case, he believes he is a bad person for having let this happen. [...] While it may seem that he is being excessively hard on himself (if his self-blame is conscious) and unforgiving toward his early caretakers, this stance actually protects him from something that is to him far worse: *experiencing his powerlessness. To do so would mean capitulation to him, a surrender to the sources of egoic reality, both within and without. Continuing to hold others accountable and trying to set things right keeps an inner fight going with reality, which keeps him from having to accept it, and for an Eight this was a necessary psychological survival strategy of early childhood. To have fully experienced his helpnessness and defenselessness would have meant physically giving up, and he indeed might not have survived if he had done so.* This is especially true if he experienced severe trauma or abuse in his childhood. *His inner powerlessness, helpelessness, and vulnerability to the forces of conditioning are what he considers the core of his weakness, and this is his most avoided experience*, as we see on the Enneagram of Avoidances, Diagram 10, where weakness appears at point 8. 

*If he had only been stronger and more powerful, he tells himself, this would not have happened. If he had been more forceful and assertive enough, he could have made mommy perceive his depths and he would have retained contact with Being. If he only had been stauncher, he could have resisted the force of egoic reality. If only he had been tougher, he could have stopped all the abuses, large and small, of which he was the recipient* - and many Eights had childhoods in which they either were abused physically or sexually, or felt as though they were. *His take on his childhood is that he was humiliated, exploited and punished for reasons that had little to do with him or his behavior.* Many Eights have the impression that mother withheld her love and did not protect him from his dominating and brutal father. A sense of profound injustice is left in his soul, and the world appears more or less malevolent to him. 



> fear of punishement leads to the fundamental, everlasting doubt of 6 or cp6: dualism of obedience/ (rebellion (contraobedience).


Have you read anything else but Naranjo? 



> 8 is the antipode as this kind of depending makes you weak and vulnerable. 8 fears powerlessness.


What state brings powerlessness? Victimhood. 



> (analogues the power of 5 which
> means inter alia avoiding giving (others , own emotions..whatever) anything too much power that could thwart the rely on the independent, objective understanding ability .)
> 
> it doesn't matter if 6 or cp6 says that hard times made her stronger. next day 6 or cp6 moans and put the blame on "authorities" again for their suffering.


So do 8s. Blame, as Maitri writes to directly quote:



> Blame is a word that figures largely in the psychology of an Eight - ascertaining who is at fault and avenging the wrong is a central preoccupation.





> it's about an inborn attitude you cannot influence by "encourager-thoughts" later.


This sentence is nonsensical. 



> 8 believes that she is responsible for everything that has to do with herself. so her will is essentiel. anger as the emotional main drive helps getting things done and waking up from inertia.
> 
> superego or fear of punishment ( death) and being without support, leading and protection of "authorities" leads to the attachment of 6 .


And where did I ever suggest that 8s care for protection, fear punishment or seek support? 8 is rejection triad, 6 is attachment triad. 8s reject, 6s attach. 

so


> 6 attaches importance to be more loyal, dutiful, conscientious and loveable, generally spoken.


8s care a great deal about being loyal too, and healthy 8s can definitely demonstrate the other qualities you mention. 



> in addition to that 6 is a head type with more consciousness within the ratio cage whereas 8 uses more intuition/ instinct and suppresses things that trigger their vulnerability.


I have no idea what you are trying to suggest about 6s vs 8s here. Both can suppress/deny, but 6 possesses an innate sensitivity tha 8s blunt themselves to. 6s are more conscious of pain, if that is what you are trying to suggest, which I agree with you with. 8s numb themselves to it. 


> this unconsciousness has an important meaning with the inborn 8 pattern as denial and suppression of weakness supports the eightish self-confidence, ironcically or paradoxi-cally, if you want .


And exactly did anything I write actually contradict this? 



> by contrast 6 or cp6 struggles with self-confidence because of the doubting mind rooted in awareness within the ratio cage.


I don't believe cp6 is a thing. A 6 is a 6. If we're going to talk about cp6, we also need to talk about cp8 but no one talks about cp8 because it makes no goddamn sense, so hence it makes no goddamn sense to talk about cp6 either. According to Naranjo, the counter-lust 8 would be the social 8, anyway, because he thinks it's the least overtly aggressive and angry out of the subtypes.


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Your opinion is an opinion but not always rooted in fact. So let's get down to it then, with actual sources to support my point of view:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah... i have a dejavu...grin... see above...
same skewed copy stuff again...
as i said on the eidb before. learn independently.make own thoughts. have own ideas.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Bearlin said:


> yeah... i have a dejavu...grin... see above...
> same skewed copy stuff again...
> as i said on the eidb before. learn independently.make own thoughts. have own ideas.


Is that the only way you can refute? Kind of disappointing. In the very least one ought to think you would have some sources to support your opinions rather than being just that, mere opinions based on fluff.


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Is that the only way you can refute? Kind of disappointing. In the very least one ought to think you would have some sources to support your opinions rather than being just that, mere opinions based on fluff.


well, what do you believe shows that statement about you in terms of the difference between cp6 and 8...grin?


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## DefectumEstMortem (Mar 5, 2016)

I thought 6s core was anxiety/fear? I've always thought of 8s as more aggressive and assertive. Which obv counter phobic 6s are too, but for different reasons. Primally, it stems from a different place than 8. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding op


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

DefectumEstMortem said:


> ... I've always thought of 8s as more aggressive and assertive. Which obv counter phobic 6s are too, but for different reasons. ...


can you elaborate on these "different reasons"?


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## DefectumEstMortem (Mar 5, 2016)

Bearlin said:


> can you elaborate on these "different reasons"?


Well according to the theory, as far as I understand it anyway, each type is either thinking feeling or instinctual. The urge to be assertive and aggressive for a six, a thinking type, stems from their need for safety and security. When unhealthy and stressed, they become arrogant and competitive. Which is similar to eights, an instinctual type whose basic primal fear is to be strong and self reliant. Which could be interpreted as aggression. 

In summation eight's need to outdo themselves and want to be powerful. 6s want to be safe and secure. 

When unhealthy 6s are more aggressive than is usual for their type.

8s are naturally aggressive, assertive and independent.

When sixes are healthy, they resemble 9s, more easygoing and happy go lucky. The difference is the well of anxiety and inclination toward intellectualizing 6s exhibit.


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## DefectumEstMortem (Mar 5, 2016)

angelfish said:


> 6 is like a thrashing palm tree in a storm.
> 8 is like a concrete bulwark.



6s are only like that when unhealthy. Healthy sixes are peaceful, cerebral and loyal, but always looking out for trouble, anxiety keeping them on their toes to maintain a level of comfort and serenity.


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

DefectumEstMortem said:


> Well according to the theory, as far as I understand it anyway, each type is either thinking feeling or instinctual. The urge to be assertive and aggressive for a six, a thinking type, stems from their need for safety and security. When unhealthy and stressed, they become arrogant and competitive. Which is similar to eights, an instinctual type whose basic primal fear is to be strong and self reliant. Which could be interpreted as aggression.
> 
> In summation eight's need to outdo themselves and want to be powerful. 6s want to be safe and secure.
> 
> ...


thanks


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## Bearlin (Feb 14, 2013)

DefectumEstMortem said:


> 6s are only like that when unhealthy. Healthy sixes are peaceful, cerebral and loyal, but always looking out for trouble, anxiety keeping them on their toes to maintain a level of comfort and serenity.


especially sx 6s (or second sx 6s partially) can rather ignore security or "comfort and serenity". all the more when they have an 8 gut fix. there you can find their tendency for audacity instead. in this case also when not "unhealty"...


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Entropic and I go about things differently. he is a Te type 8, I'm a Ti type 8. I respect his opinion, and offer another perspective as it may help someone.

8 is described as being gut based. We REACT, or ACT. So, imagine someone standing around, with a giant rubber band around their gut. All of a sudden, something happens, and the rubber band starts PULLING them off to an adventure. As we go, we might say something, or do something, or even delay the trip a bit, but MOSTLY we're looking forward. And, any emotion we have, in the spur of the moment, gets turned to rage or anger and fuels us to make a difference.

to me, 6 is different. 6 can be reactive, but they are more likely to pull back, and bite off whatever is attacking them. An 8 explodes outward. A 6 protects their home front.

Push on an 8, and they get angry and shove back. Piss off a 6, and they come up with a plan, and DECIDE what to do.

8's can be cerebral, 6 can be angry, but tendencies.............

An 8's fear is to be controlled. manipulate us, or shame us, or control us, or back us into a corner, and we'll destroy the corner and you when we explode outwards.

a 6's fear is something else, manipulate them, or shame them, or control them, and they don't care as much. back them into a corner, and they go quite willingly, but if you go INTO their corner after them, they will fucking destroy you.

Keep in mind there is also health levels. Healthy 6 behavior CAN be unhealthy 8 behavior, and vice versa. there is also maturity. Perspectives change, how integrated we are changes, how we are feeling changes.

An 8 has a sense of justice for the weak, and power. We KNOW where power lies. Even my descriptions about the corner - I respect greatly a 6 who is fighting for his home or family. I want no part of a strong 6 who is protecting his home. Likewise, if my kids were to need a safe place to stay, and I had earned a 6's loyalty, I would be VERY appreciative of the protection a 6 can offer his "own kind." 

A 6 might look at me to see if I'm going to be loyal to his cause, his mission, his home, and the answer is "probably not." A strong 6 doesn't need my help. A 6 can take care of himself.


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## beth x (Mar 4, 2010)

*Time for a breather folks*

....and just because, here's a cheesy clip for the interim. The long version!


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