# Misconceptions About Science



## Randomasd (Aug 29, 2013)

I made a(poor) translation of a passage I just read in a book:

*The scientific ideas, which should be comprehended as relative and transitory, essentially human, are being transformed in idols; the science instead of being comprehended as a cultural work becomes an object of cult and it's social success turns against the own scientific knowledge, for conducing it to the same plan as the myth which it pretends to overcome.
...
the common sense still tends to interpret scientific knowledge as an equivalent to all objective knowledge, true in absolute terms, non-ideological in essence, without influence of subjectivity and fundamentally discovered and proven...
*Alice Ribeiro Casimiro Lopes
CONHECIMENTO ESCOLAR: CIÊNCIA E COTIDIANO

And, wow, that's exactly what's bugging me for a while. People using science as a synonym to absolute truth; scientific knowledge is always changing and even well established theories may fall.

Thoughts?


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## SA1988 (May 25, 2012)

Interesting and fair point! I guess it's better than the blind dogma of religion though. At least when science proves itself wrong, it moves on and adjusts.

Whereas _jesus rose from the dead so there_.


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## marsec (Nov 6, 2012)

Thomas Kuhn has a good book on this (if that quote isn't from there already). 

I think its mostly a cultural thing if you ask me, why do we latch onto certain beliefs as hardcore truths? It seems the human mind throughout all points in history had at least something that was an unshakable belief to base truth off of whether it was a wrong idea (the world is flat, fire burns because of a chemical called phlogiston, witches were made of wood and weigh the same as ducks) or whether it was a "right" one. 

I think the healthiest saying I heard regarding this is that all theories have room to be proven wrong even though we can use them to our advantage currently. It is arrogant to think we have the ability to perceive all that is really going on since most of our experience is limited by what we has humans can take in through our senses.


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## DemonAbyss10 (Oct 28, 2010)

and the same can be applied to religious nonsense. The truth is something that truly will be beyond human grasp, from both a physical AND so called spiritual standpoint.


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## wuliheron (Sep 5, 2011)

According to the National Science Foundation, one in five Americans insists the sun revolves around the earth. If you think that's an issue of education all I can say is denial is not the name of a river in Egypt.


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## Randomasd (Aug 29, 2013)

marsec said:


> Thomas Kuhn has a good book on this (if that quote isn't from there already).


It's from a Brazilian book about education.

The whole problem is on education. Teachers are not being able to explain the meaning and the method of science. Students only get the scientific concepts and absorb it as it's immutable. They do it in school and keep doing it in their whole lives.

And I think it's important to know what's behind science and that's something we can be critical about. 

And of course the opposite would be problematic too, when someone discredit scientific knowledge too fast. Today I heard a future electrical engineer saying: "Biologists are against hydroelectric power plants but they are using electric energy too". I found this argument so ridiculous that I didn't even argue.

There is a lot of knowledge being produced on ecology and now we know a lot about environmental Impacts of hydroelectric power plants on jungles, how can someone ignore that?


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

As I see it, science today for many is becoming and is what religion was for people in the 11th century. You simply don't question it. It's always right, it's the last argument, objective and whatever you wish. And everything that is not science is very questionable, useless and even dangerous to society (take religion for example). This forum is one of the places where all of this can be seen very vividly. 

When I write ''science'', I of course only mean the natural sciences. Nobody takes social sciences seriously, they're safe.



Randomasd said:


> scientific knowledge is always changing and even well established theories may fall.


I don't think the quote you wrote here is referring to this. Even if theories do not fall and turn out to be 100% true, Western science is only a part of the story, plus it cannot be approached as dogmatically as more and more people are attempting to do, even if right now we knew that all science is completely true. 

Is it a problem of education - of course. And not just education in schools but also unis. I have talked to/been friends with/dated lots of m.sc. and sc.d. students and I have to say that they are quite boring people, with a very primitive view of religion, culture, art, and generally everything that is outside their narrow field of specialization, many believe in various conspiracy theories, and once I had a sc.d. biology student tell me that plants feel just like humans feel. He was the best one in his course and was hired by the uni to work for them, but that's what he thought. Currently I share a flat with a UCL m.sc. student (of neurology) and every evening I try to talk about some ''controversial'' topics (religion & art mostly) with him because he's such a peculiarity to me, like a rare bird at the zoo. Generally I've been very disappointed with the science students whom I've met. It's been said that the vast majority of scientific research is mechanical work that even a trained monkey can do, which seems to be exactly what the West is producing.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

Pessimisterious said:


> Interesting and fair point! I guess it's better than the blind dogma of religion though. At least when science proves itself wrong, it moves on and adjusts.
> 
> Whereas _jesus rose from the dead so there_.


I'm tired of people like you always complaining about religion it when you don't even have to be a part of it. Also plenty of scientific types refuse to believe they can ever be wrong and can't move on and adjust, not to mention science has been used for evil. And no one says Jesus rose from the dead and ends it there, don't make stuff up to feed your ego.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

SuperDevastation said:


> I'm tired of people like you always complaining about religion it when you don't even have to be a part of it. *Also plenty of scientific types refuse to believe they can ever be wrong and can't move on and adjust, not to mention science has been used for evil.* And no one says Jesus rose from the dead and ends it there, don't make stuff up to feed your ego.


You serious? I'm not an atheist, but these claims are incredibly one-sided. 

First, sure, cocky people exist everywhere, but there's a huge peer-review portion of science that will just leave these types butthurt and without merit in the community. That's the beautiful part; no matter how right people think they are, if it does not work or is untenable, it's shit. It's done. Why? There's another cocky person who wants their idea on the forefront, so they will destroy the others for a good published paper. 

Secondly, science has been used for evil, eh? What hasn't? I'm enjoying my computer, are you? Looks like it. And Christianity has never been used to back up evil? Please.


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## SuperDevastation (Jun 7, 2010)

FlightsOfFancy said:


> You serious? I'm not an atheist, but these claims are incredibly one-sided.
> 
> First, sure, cocky people exist everywhere, but there's a huge peer-review portion of science that will just leave these types butthurt and without merit in the community. That's the beautiful part; no matter how right people think they are, if it does not work or is untenable, it's shit. It's done. Why? There's another cocky person who wants their idea on the forefront, so they will destroy the others for a good published paper.
> 
> Secondly, science has been used for evil, eh? What hasn't? I'm enjoying my computer, are you? Looks like it. And Christianity has never been used to back up evil? Please.


Funny I don't recall saying or implying nothing else has been used for evil. And the rest of your reply makes no sense and seems like a crazy and desperate attempt to discredit me rather than refute me.


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## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

SuperDevastation said:


> Funny I don't recall saying or implying nothing else has been used for evil. And the rest of your reply makes no sense and seems like a* crazy and desperate attempt to discredit me rather than refute me.*


That's what I think of your entire religion with respect to science. It seems most here do. It makes no sense at all, really. It makes claims far past what evolution claims. It makes no sense, yet a lot of people think it does.


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## Psychosmurf (Aug 22, 2010)

SuperDevastation said:


> I'm tired of people like you always complaining about religion it when you don't even have to be a part of it. Also plenty of scientific types refuse to believe they can ever be wrong and can't move on and adjust, not to mention *science has been used for evil.* And no one says Jesus rose from the dead and ends it there, don't make stuff up to feed your ego.


But there's no such thing as evil, though.


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## Uralian Hamster (May 13, 2011)

Religion doesn't have to make sense. Trying to apply scientific concepts and logic to religion doesn't make sense. Likewise, blindly believing scientific concepts without actually understanding why that is, is just as senseless. 

So ya, the theist trying to use "science" to prove religion is just as bad as the atheist that spouts scientific theories without actually knowing anything about them.


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## SA1988 (May 25, 2012)

SuperDevastation said:


> I'm tired of people like you always complaining about religion it when you don't even have to be a part of it.


A part of what? '_The club'_? 

Sorry but you've just shot down your own argument. If I don't need to be 'a part' of religion, then clearly it's useless anyway. Sounds like nothing more than a cult. Oh how special.



> Also plenty of scientific types refuse to believe they can ever be wrong and can't move on and adjust, not to mention *science has been used for evil.*


Ok. Congratulations on conveniently forgetting every single religiously motivated human atrocity that has ever been. Where should I start? The crusades? The Inquisition? Or how about the current civil war in Syria? Did you see the video of that man eating a dead person's heart in the name of his particular religious sect? Did you hear about the Homs massacre? Probably not. 100% religious in-fighting. Enjoy. 





Sorry this forum seems to automatically want to embed this video. Oh well. It's on youtube and it's real life. Deal with it.



> And no one says Jesus rose from the dead and ends it there, don't make stuff up to feed your ego.


Yes, people do say that. How the fuck am I feeding my ego.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

The problem is people take current conclusions and take it as dogma. Religion was a method to explain the world for the most of human civilization. Then we created the scientific method that's premise was to constantly question things and not accept something until it's been questioned by many people and backed up. The scientific method itself isn't the problem. It's people thinking that things don't change and therefore not questioning things. Also, people hate being wrong so they will hold onto things they believed as true, even though evidence proves otherwise.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Madam said:


> As I see it, science today for many is becoming and is what religion was for people in the 11th century. You simply don't question it. It's always right, it's the last argument, objective and whatever you wish. And everything that is not science is very questionable, useless and even dangerous to society (take religion for example). This forum is one of the places where all of this can be seen very vividly.


Weird, I have the exact opposite view.

I think people nowadays in postmodern Western culture just believe whatever the hell they want, and they don't feel the need to examine it and support it, it's all what they want to believe and what seems believable in their own little microcosm of the world. They just shut out things they don't want to hear... and they can get away with it too. Tribal beliefs are back in style, and civilization is segmenting accordingly. We no longer need EVERYONE, so we can easily exclude all the people who tell us things we don't want to hear.

It doesn't matter what the topic is -- science, religion, or whatever else. You can place your faith in anything and pretty much still build a little world around it.

People just pick and choose, and they only change their worldview if they are have no choice in order to survive.




PowerShell said:


> The problem is people take current conclusions and take it as dogma. Religion was a method to explain the world for the most of human civilization. Then we created the scientific method that's premise was to constantly question things and not accept something until it's been questioned by many people and backed up. The scientific method itself isn't the problem. It's people thinking that things don't change and therefore not questioning things. Also, people hate being wrong so they will hold onto things they believed as true, even though evidence proves otherwise.


Right, I agree too that it's the mindset of PEOPLE and not necessarily the topic/field of interest that is causing the most problems.* Basically, people find something they are comfortable with and trust most, and are afraid to open themselves and rethink.

While I do think there are people who do this for bad reasons, I do try to be fair, though, and acknowledge that often our beliefs have been constructed to make sense of the world and also incorporate our values. If your values of beauty and worthwhileness are invested in a particular worldview, and something challenges that worldview, to reject the worldview often feels like you will lose everything you think is wonderful and praisesworthy in life. 

I mean, if someone sees science as saving people and providing for them, curing the sick, etc., to admit some of those same views might also contribute to destruction of the environment can be difficult to accept. The same thing -- if someone believes their God has made them a better person and promised them a future, then to reject the trappings of that God is like damning oneself and then throws into doubt everything they believed about who they were.

I don't want to downplay the huge sacrifice and uncertainty that comes with abandoning an old view for an updated one.


*Although I do see science and faith as two different processes, and science does have checks and balances that religion does not seem to have, since it is "revelation" based -- the only way to change faith is for "God" to reveal something new to you, whereas the scientific method is designed to constantly weed out observed inconsistencies in the system.


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## PowerShell (Feb 3, 2013)

Jennywocky said:


> I mean, if someone sees science as saving people and providing for them, curing the sick, etc., to admit some of those same views might also contribute to destruction of the environment can be difficult to accept.


It's all about value created and also accepting, with solutions to old problems, comes new problems. It's an evolutionary process that continues. The thing is, with science, we are in more control of the process than other animals.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

That any of the hard tangible sciences disprove God. Anything which can actually be directly observed in reality has nothing to do with that. I find that any argument that insists God or the supernatural does not exist is based in mathematical speculation and theory, not observing matter.


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## Madam (Apr 1, 2012)

Jennywocky said:


> Weird, I have the exact opposite view.
> 
> I think people nowadays in postmodern Western culture just believe whatever the hell they want, and they don't feel the need to examine it and support it, it's all what they want to believe and what seems believable in their own little microcosm of the world. They just shut out things they don't want to hear... and they can get away with it too. Tribal beliefs are back in style, and civilization is segmenting accordingly. We no longer need EVERYONE, so we can easily exclude all the people who tell us things we don't want to hear.
> 
> ...


Believe whatever the hell they want? What are you talking about exactly? Ethics, aesthetics, values, that sort of thing? Certainly you are not claiming that we in the West have a widespread pick-and-choose attitude towards natural sciences. Try claiming that you don't ''believe'' in evolution, Earth revolving around the Sun, or that you consider physics complete quackery etc. - you will be singled out and regarded as an idiot or a religious fanatic (or both). Science is one thing that is accepted completely. Even religious people attempt to prove that their religion makes no claims in conflict with science. And of course, only the scientific method is valid, nothing else really, that's why all non-scientific matters are doubted to the max, considered completely relative and subjective, made up and so on.


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## Takadox (Apr 5, 2013)

People take science for granted. Science is not the problem, scientists are. Often conclusions are drawn from data, that has other interpretations, that are curbed to agree with what you wanted in the first place. This is is common it's not even funny. People go out looking to prove some conviction that they hold(nothing wrong with this, you need a hunch or hypothesis in the first place) onto even when the data might not agree with, or might not say much at all. This is harder in your sciences that are more concrete, because it's harder to draw different conclusions from the same data, but in more statistic based sciences in can be bad.

And this is coming from an electrical engineer. So I have nothing against science, or even most sciences, just some people that have to always be right. Not try to see another solution or answer that might be possible.

And yes things do change, constantly in some fields, while in others things are more or less set in stone. For instance if in neurology or climatology or social sciences or really anything with more statistical measurements changed one day, maybe the whole field no one would be too thoroughly surprised though, well not as much as if something like physics or chemistry or math was turned upside down.


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