# One difference between 5 and 9: Boundaries?



## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

I am wondering, what my type is. I can relate to a lot of traits/thoughts/patterns about type 5 and 9.
But i begin to think, that my problem lies in one word: "boundaries".

Do i have them (5)? Or don't i have them (9?)

It's strange, but i can't decide for sure. I am not able to really say and mean "no" (a classic example in type 9 literature about not having boundaries). But on the other side people, who know me, always say, that i am "unapprochable" or "distant" and they have inhibitions to hug me, for example. I come across as cautious, but on the inside, i can tell, that i would really like to touch etc.

So, are there invisible boundaries, i can't see or is this typical for a withdrawn 9? What do you think? Does anybody have the same conflict or some insight about this?


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

Generally speaking, a 9 still has boundaries (everybody does, but gut types are characterized by their relationship with their boundaries), but convinces themself that they do not have boundaries and never have. This convincing does not have to be conscious. There are several differences between 5 and 9, but I do think this difference of boundaries concept is an important one. Nitpicky thing - relating to traits/thoughts/patterns smacks of "what" instead of "why", and on PerC we're quite fond of saying the "why" is crucial for Enneagram typings. 

I am neither a 5 nor a 9, so I won't be of any use in that regard, but in my experience, every time a person was torn between 5 and 9, they decided on 9. Furthermore, your "on the other side" did not strike me personally as an "other side". Do with that what you will.


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## Azazel (May 27, 2016)

Ok. First of all. Let's put a point into 9.
Why? 9s are the most likely to relate to other types and mistype themselves. The confusion between 9 and another type could lead into a more possible 9.


> Of all the personality types, Nines have the most difficulty identifying which type they are because their sense of self is undefined. Average Nines have little sense of who they are apart from those they have identified with; hence, they are usually at a loss to know where to begin to find their type. (As we have seen, either they think they are Fives or Twos or they see a little of themselves in all the types and make no further effort at identifying themselves. If they have no guidance, Nines in this predicament usually shrug their shoulders and give up on the Enneagram and more important, on acquiring self-knowledge.)


Source: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-5-and-9/

Since your misidentifying between 5 and 9 let's compare between them.
1. 5 leads to *thinking* traits, while 9 leads to *intelectual feeling* traits(Examples; 9 ENTPs normally have TONS of Fe and a ability to develop it easily. 9 ISTPs could appear as ISFPs/ISFJs due to their tendence to be really easy-going and laidback).
In case you're a feeler who oscillates between F and T, in case you're 5 it could be explained, BUT
In case you're a feeler with deep ideas and a tendence to think-outside-the-box could make you think you're a 5, misleading a path where 9 fits better.


> Part of the problem stems from the fact that individuals of both types can be highly intelligent, although as a group Fives are probably the most intelligent of the nine personality types. (When Nines are highly intelligent, they can be as brilliant as Fives, although their intellectual prowess is compartmentalized. They are brilliant at work but unfocused and inattentive everywhere else, whereas Fives are focused and attentive everywhere all the time.) Although intelligence can be manifested in different ways, being intelligent does not make Nines intellectuals, just as thinking does not make them thinkers. As we have seen, the pattern as a whole (and the motivations) must be taken into consideration, not one or two traits in isolation. Since all the types think in one way or another, thinking alone, with no further distinction, is not a sufficient basis for a personality diagnosis.


2. 5 leaves themselves much more grounded since they prefer to keep thinking deep. As 9 prefers to avoid thoughts that might disturb them, so, they would rather stop thinking about something deeper if it is going to hurt them.

3. Trusting.


> The two types are opposites in many ways. Nines are gentle, easygoing, patient, receptive, and accommodating, whereas Fives are intense, strong-minded, argumentative, contentious, and highly resistant to the influence of others. Nines like people and trust them; perhaps at times they are too trusting. By contrast, average Fives are suspicious of people and are anything but trusting, perhaps at times too cynical and resistant. Both types are among the three withdrawn types of the Enneagram, and (as we have seen with Fours and Nines), there are genuine similarities between them, although only superficial ones


 3.1. Comfort.
"_I am not able to really say and mean "no" (a classic example in type 9 literature about not having boundaries)_"

Even if 9 doesn't trust at all, they will always have some point of comforting people or even lie about their thoughts in order to avoid trouble.

4. Inner mind state.


> The fundamental difference between the thinking of Nines and that of Fives is that Nines are impressionistic, involved with generalities, imaginative ruminations, and fanciful situations. Nines typically do not concern themselves with details, nor are they usually good at following up once they have acted. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is highly focused, penetrating, and almost microscopic in the narrowness of its frame of reference. Fives love details, losing themselves in research, scholarship, and complex intellectual pursuits. They think in depth, concentrating so much that they block out other perceptions (eventually to their detriment). By contrast, even brilliant Nines tend to have problems concentrating; they also tend to lose interest quickly and to allow their attention to drift off when they become bored or anxious.





> Nines have an active fantasy life and think that they have deep thoughts. Sometimes they do, of course, although the thinking of intelligent, well-educated Nines tends to be in the direction of simplifying reality and cutting through abstruse thickets to get at the kernel of truth beneath. Nines tend to see things the way they want them to be; they reinterpret reality to make it more comforting and less threatening, simpler and less daunting. By contrast, the thinking of Fives is complex. By attempting to arrive at a grand unifying theory that encompasses and explains everything, average Fives end up involved in increasing complications and abstractions. Their thought is focused on specifics, often highly technical and concerned with foresight and the consequences of acting one way rather than another. But at an extreme, Fives risk seeing reality not as it is but as a projection of their preoccupations and fears. They distort their perceptions of reality so that reality seems more negative and threatening than it actually is.


As for other things, here is the source of the quote. It may help you:
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-5-and-9/


Now, let's attend to your concrete case.

Z. Boundaries.
Z.1. Point 3. Trusting.
Z.2. Boundaries.
Logically, 9 will not stablish that much boundaries. 9w8 will do it but keep it on the limits.
5s are not that afraid of stop people and they will often retreat in other hand.
Z.2. Merging with the world.


> Nines feel at ease in the world, and their style of thinking reflects their unconscious desire to merge with the world. Fives are afraid of being overwhelmed by the world, and their intellectual efforts are an unconscious defense against the world


 The fact that you're distanced should be analyzed. But, from what you've talked about, 9 sounds fine.
9 often experiment the desires but they could be very withdrawn and avoid it(this happens to me, actually).
The desire is not that strong on 5s, they have it but their avoidance often comes with consciousness of what can it lead to and retreat from it in order to not to be overwhelmed.

So, 9s have the desire but lead with the direct introversion, avoidance and withdrawn-ness. In other hand, 5 can have the desire but their "5-ness" sometimes can cut-off it.


OFC. Read this in case you want to know more.
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-5-and-9/

PD: The institute already has other comparison pages for other types.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@mysterio
Well, my first thought is that if you're not sure if you have boundaries or not, that points towards 9, because I think a 5 would be more aware... or at least see themselves as more aware. 

I don't really like the "9s are more likely to identify as other types"-argument, because I think that depends, but this kind of fuzziness about yourself I do associate with 9.


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## Azazel (May 27, 2016)

Distortions said:


> I don't really like the "9s are more likely to identify as other types"-argument, because I think that depends, but this kind of fuzziness about yourself I do associate with 9.


It is actually very senseful and likely to happen. But that doesn't mean that it will always do, of course.


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> Generally speaking, a 9 still has boundaries (everybody does, but gut types are characterized by their relationship with their boundaries), but convinces themself that they do not have boundaries and never have. This convincing does not have to be conscious. There are several differences between 5 and 9, but I do think this difference of boundaries concept is an important one. Nitpicky thing - relating to traits/thoughts/patterns smacks of "what" instead of "why", and on PerC we're quite fond of saying the "why" is crucial for Enneagram typings.
> 
> I am neither a 5 nor a 9, so I won't be of any use in that regard, but in my experience, every time a person was torn between 5 and 9, they decided on 9. Furthermore, your "on the other side" did not strike me personally as an "other side". Do with that what you will.


Thx for your thoughts! 
My very great problem is, that i, perhaps, don't want to be a 5 and make a (un)conscious decision to not have boundaries or not liking them or don't acknowledging them myself. Would this be possible for a 5 or would this move be something no one could do and still BE a 5 (because it's their core)?

I wanna see and explore the "why" and not only the "what", because it drives me in circles, as i know quite well. But its difficult for me to relate to any of the "why"-descriptions. Especially the parts about "holy X/Y". It's to far away for me. 

You think it's quite "normal" for a 9 to appear distant/unapproachable to others? 

I talk more about it, here: http://personalitycafe.com/whats-my...t-where-core-experts-needed.html#post29047778



Sve said:


> Ok. First of all. Let's put a point into 9.
> Why? 9s are the most likely to relate to other types and mistype themselves. The confusion between 9 and another type could lead into a more possible 9.
> 
> Source: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-5-and-9/
> ...


I am an ENFP in the MBTI. And i long thought i would be an introvert (because socially i appear this way). So i struggled between INFP and INTP. But i almost always tested as an INFP (sometimes INFJ). But i am an ENFP. Which makes a 5 more unlikely, i think (but sure, not impossible). I am not sure, whether i have "deep ideas" or "think outside the box". People who know me, certainly would think so, but i am one of the only ones in my environment, who went studying. So i could appear this way for people. But it's difficult!



> 2. 5 leaves themselves much more grounded since they prefer to keep thinking deep. As 9 prefers to avoid thoughts that might disturb them, so, they would rather stop thinking about something deeper if it is going to hurt them.


I don't like disturbing thoughts. But again: I think i don't! Perhaps my "not so disturbing thoughts" are disturbing for a lot of people? 



> 3. Trusting.
> 
> 3.1. Comfort.
> "_I am not able to really say and mean "no" (a classic example in type 9 literature about not having boundaries)_"
> ...


Yeah, thats true and i am sure of this, because it was always the case, since childhood.



> 4. Inner mind state.
> 
> As for other things, here is the source of the quote. It may help you:
> https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/misidentifying-5-and-9/


Yeah, i like this text and i read it before... a lot! :laughing: I always relate way more to the 9. But here: https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/fives/ i also can find me as a 5 and this text goes into the "why" i think. (The 9 one also sounds true in a lot of parts, damn, this is difficult!)



> Now, let's attend to your concrete case.
> 
> Z. Boundaries.
> Z.1. Point 3. Trusting.
> ...


You give some really great points, but i am not sure, i understand it right or know, which is more like me. I read a lot about 5s feeling overwhelmed. But i don't know exactly what this really means. Perhaps i need an example! ;-)

When i have got difficult situations to face, i don't want to do it and always try to get through without directly facing the problem. I don't really think about, why i do this. I think i don't like this feeling inside then. I don't think i really "detach" as a 5 would. Detaching (or Dissociation, i don't know) is only possible when other people have problems. Then i have got a clear mind, see, where the problem is and can also understand the feelings/intentions/thoughts of other people, who are connected to these problems. 
Does my rambling make any sense?! Please ask me questions! :-D



Distortions said:


> @*mysterio*
> Well, my first thought is that if you're not sure if you have boundaries or not, that points towards 9, because I think a 5 would be more aware... or at least see themselves as more aware.


Yeah, my self-concept includes being aware. ;-) Perhaps, that's a lie it tell myself? Or it's possible, that i have boundaries, and don't want to acknowledge it, because i don't want to be a "bad" person/5.
Ever heard of some rambling like this?! :exterminate:


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## Azazel (May 27, 2016)

mysterio said:


> I am an ENFP in the MBTI. And i long thought i would be an introvert (because socially i appear this way). So i struggled between INFP and INTP. But i almost always tested as an INFP (sometimes INFJ). But i am an ENFP. Which makes a 5 more unlikely, i think (but sure, not impossible). I am not sure, whether i have "deep ideas" or "think outside the box". People who know me, certainly would think so, but i am one of the only ones in my environment, who went studying. So i could appear this way for people. But it's difficult!
> 
> 
> I don't like disturbing thoughts. But again: I think i don't! Perhaps my "not so disturbing thoughts" are disturbing for a lot of people?
> ...


I think you're a 9. Definitely, 9s are not necesarily introverts but actually act like them and you said you got Introverted on test, which is a signal of it.

When talking about "disturbing" we talk about thoughts that can disturb *you*. Also, 9 avoids a lot paranoid thoughts that can make you sad or angry.
5s actually even prefer to do that and prefer to break the sanity borderline of thinking as they priorize always the acknowledge. Not something that sensitive 9 would like to do. They do, but it is really unusual to be its preference, 9 wants more a peaceful and idealistic way to think and could even sacrifice knowledgable characters in order to stay on sanity.

As for the last part, 5 normally goes about getting ideas and thoughts as big as they can, so it often make them lost it because their thirst of acknowledge can be over what they can handle, that's how they get overwhelmed.
And, for the very last part. That's what 9s normally do. That's a little of 9's state of avoidance, and If you really don't think about that feeling, that's a not-5 indicative.

And, now, wings. From what you're talking about, I don't get much about them, but 9w1 seems likely(and it is the most one to get mistyped as a 5). But, I don't know enough at all.
Take a look here, this might help you:

http://personalitycafe.com/type-9-forum-peacemaker/39226-enneatype-9-wings.html


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

Having met you two seconds ago, I can't say much, but yeah, I'm leaning 9 for you as well. 

When my friends and I were all getting into the Enneagram and typing ourselves, one friend did originally look at 5, and a lot of it did fit him. But then we reached type 9 in our studies, and we were blown away. The concept of boundaries was a big deal in the typing process for us, and especially for him. (We all ended up typing as gut types, so that's fun.) 

It can be kind of complicated, how he is both apart and nearby. He doesn't have any "official" boundaries, but he does leave a lot of psychic space in between people, and often seems "unapproachable" if he's not putting energy into being seen as friendly or involved. He does often exist distant from others, but he can get low-key upset when we point out where his energy goes (hint, always away from the group). He doesn't have _boundaries_, not really, (not in any way my 8 self would do them), never says no to people even when he really wants to say no, like you say, but he will unknowingly make space for himself when he needs to, in very passive ways. He doesn't like the idea of boundaries, but he still needs his space.

I'm not sure if this is "normal" for 9s or not (though the two other 9s I know do something similar, with a duality of distant/involved), but hope this helps.


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

mysterio said:


> I am wondering, what my type is. I can relate to a lot of traits/thoughts/patterns about type 5 and 9.
> But i begin to think, that my problem lies in one word: "boundaries".
> 
> Do i have them (5)? Or don't i have them (9?)
> ...


A key distinction between the two is a sense of individuality - 9s feel they are insignificant, that others' wants are more important than theirs. They don't generally like conflict and tend to avoid more heated debate. A 9 will end up disconnected from others through inattention or maybe forgetting themselves at home.

5s, if they get disconnected from people, will likely end up so because people can be a drain on them: A more fixated 5's solution to excess drain is invariably to cut it off, a 9's to ignore that it exists in the first place. 5 is a highly overthinking orientation: The kind of person who goes into analytical philosophy, while 9 is more the kind of person that just switches their mind off. Turning their mind off would drive a 5 insane in short order: They have a driving need to achieve clarity to feel relaxed.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

@mysterio

I would also definitely definitely say 9 for you. 5s have VERY STRONG boundaries. They are very sensitive to demands on them and their time, and they can only tolerate it for so long. They are much more likely to rub people the wrong way because they say "no" so often (even if they feel bad about it, because they often do) than they are to not be able to say no at all. Even very passive or shy 5s will NEED their boundaries. 5s have _too many_ boundaries, it's part of what keeps them detached from the world.


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

periwinklepromise said:


> I'm not sure if this is "normal" for 9s or not (though the two other 9s I know do something similar, with a duality of distant/involved), but hope this helps.


FWIW sounds totally normal to me. 


Anyway this whole boundary discussion -- I think when 9s think they don't have boundaries it's because they've identified with their public facade. I have boundaries out the wazoo, but the thing is I avoid having to make a boundary known if I don't need to. The 9 disposition is to solve "stress" by not dealing with things, both inside and out, meaning that even having to explicitly assert a boundary _already_ is violating. 9s handle this though by disassociating, both in the moment as well as by conveniently disappearing when a boundary would have arisen. Typically 5s have _something_ they have a strong attachment to, but 9s ultimately are most attached to the "not dealing with things" itself, whatever form that takes. And because 5s can't really disassociate, it can seem like it is the 5s who have the stronger boundaries.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Sve said:


> It is actually very senseful and likely to happen. But that doesn't mean that it will always do, of course.


However, other types can mistype too, which is why I prefer to think of why it happens.



mysterio said:


> Yeah, my self-concept includes being aware. ;-) Perhaps, that's a lie it tell myself? Or it's possible, that i have boundaries, and don't want to acknowledge it, because i don't want to be a "bad" person/5.


Well, you seem unaware of if you have boundaries or not, so that's what I was thinking about.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

I've managed to understand it like this: Fives do have some trepidation about the future, worried they will be powerless to say "no" in face of some vague and scary external forces. So, they set up a lot of boundaries in advance. They remove themselves from situations where they don't feel useful, powerful, in control - sometimes by isolating, withdrawing intimacy, or immersing themselves in familiarity (hobbies etc). But they can usually say "no" when needed. 

However, sometimes they do struggle to say no, once you manage to break past their preventative measures, but mostly because they are afraid or feel like they somehow "can't". 

Whereas: Nines are unable to say "no", because they feel like they are "not allowed to". Non-self-aware Nines sometimes seem to _think _they're the most open, easygoing people ever, which is hilarious. Because you definitely still hit those sore spots with them... the arms cross, the tone changes, but call them on it and they have no idea what you're talking about, everything is fine! So basically their boundary is to deny the need for boundaries (by saying there is no problem even when there is). 






Another thing I have noticed but this is just my experience and speculation: When 9s do end up "going along" with things instead of saying no, they are more likely to stew inside with quiet resentment. When 5s end up going along with things (which is less often), they tend to internalize the situation and be angry/self-deprecating toward themselves for ending up in that situation (which would make sense with the whole fear of incompetence thing).


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

Thank you very much for your input, everyone! :happy:

All seems to point in the direction of 9. But yesterday i got a feedback from a very good friend of mine, who knows me quite well since over 15 years. We often speak about ourselves and about personality and life in general. He doesn't really know about the enneagram, but i asked him to read the two descriptions from oceanmoonshine about 5 and 9.

We didn't have a chance to talk about it in detail yet, but he said, the 9 descriptions would not be like me at all! The 5, on the other hand, fits 90% (his words).

So, as you can may imagine: I am confused again! :exterminate:

What do i make of this? Yeah, he doesn't have much knowledge about the enneagram, as you all have, but he is perhaps one of the people, who knows me quite well. How i act und also a lot about, why i do this.

What would you all make about this?

My best theory for now: I am a Five, but one of the subtypes, who doesn't have such strong boundaries or doesn't really push or see them. Perhaps sx or so, who go a bit against the dominant Fiveness? Is this likely?

Perhaps i only "want" to be a 9, because they are liked and peaceful. And no isolating, crude 5? 



Sve said:


> When talking about "disturbing" we talk about thoughts that can disturb *you. *Also, 9 avoids a lot paranoid thoughts that can make you sad or angry.
> 5s actually even prefer to do that and prefer to break the sanity borderline of thinking as they priorize always the acknowledge. Not something that sensitive 9 would like to do. They do, but it is really unusual to be its preference, 9 wants more a peaceful and idealistic way to think and could even sacrifice knowledgable characters in order to stay on sanity.
> 
> As for the last part, 5 normally goes about getting ideas and thoughts as big as they can, so it often make them lost it because their thirst of acknowledge can be over what they can handle, that's how they get overwhelmed.
> And, for the very last part. That's what 9s normally do. That's a little of 9's state of avoidance, and If you really don't think about that feeling, that's a not-5 indicative.


@disturbing:
I recently watched Mr. Robot (who in my opinion struggles with 5/6 problems). The beginning was really interesting, the story too. But in the end, i got really depressed and it got a lot harder to watch. Afterwards i had a very disturbing feeling inside, which i didn't liked at all!
I am generally more of the Disney-Guy with happy-endings. But on the other hand i like meaningful deaths in fiction (One Piece or Game of Thrones, for example). Hate looking at the news, because they are depressing. Do you have some questions to ask, which would shine light on this aspect?
@Knowledge/curiosity:
I don't know, whether i have it. I only have a few interests i explore one at a time. In my youth it would be soccer (i knew every player in the german bundesliga and where he played before by heart), later i've got a fetish about star wars and learned all about this galaxy, the aliens and started writing fanfcition with others. The last years i read a lot about personality and careers, MBTI, enneagram, BIG FIVE etc. Still ongoing. But in the end, nothing is really "practical". ;-) Five? Or more 9?
I some texts, who contrast 9 and 5, it's said, that 9 would write a nice little story about something, which interests them (peace for example) and 5's would research everything to find the one and only true "code" for the problem. I think i am more of an 9, in this respect.
I want to be seen as competent though.

@discussion:
I like discussing! Especially about the "world at large" and what goes wrong with it. I don't relate to the part of the 9, who says they don't know their one opinion in a discussion! I almost always have an opinion! But i am conscious about who thinks what and wouldn't bring all topics to the table, if people are there who would be offended.

I relate strongly to this 5-part:


Brains said:


> A more fixated 5's solution to excess drain is invariably to cut it off, a 9's to ignore that it exists in the first place. *5 is a highly overthinking orientation:* The kind of person who goes into analytical philosophy, while 9 is more the kind of person that just switches their mind off. *Turning their mind off would drive a 5 insane in short order: They have a driving need to achieve clarity to feel relaxed.*


Everyone who knows me, would say THIS about me!



Philathea said:


> I would also definitely definitely say 9 for you. 5s have VERY STRONG boundaries. They are very sensitive to demands on them and their time, and they can only tolerate it for so long. They are much more likely to rub people the wrong way because they say "no" so often (even if they feel bad about it, because they often do) than they are to not be able to say no at all. Even very passive or shy 5s will NEED their boundaries. 5s have_too many boundaries, it's part of what keeps them detached from the world._


But this again, sounds not like me. Or i don't want to see it in myself, because i don't want to be a "bad" person.



Dying Acedia said:


> Anyway this whole boundary discussion -- I think when 9s think they don't have boundaries it's because they've identified with their public facade. I have boundaries out the wazoo, but the thing is I avoid having to make a boundary known if I don't need to. The 9 disposition is to solve "stress" by not dealing with things, both inside and out, meaning that even having to explicitly assert a boundary _already is violating. 9s handle this though by disassociating, both in the moment as well as by conveniently disappearing when a boundary would have arisen. Typically 5s have something they have a strong attachment to, but 9s ultimately are most attached to the "not dealing with things" itself, whatever form that takes. *And because 5s can't really disassociate, it can seem like it is the 5s who have the stronger boundaries.*_


It's difficult for myself to see what i am doing. But i think the last part fits. I am not so easy able to "disassociate". I am always "there" and aware and need to cope in a way. 



Distortions said:


> Well, you seem unaware of if you have boundaries or not, so that's what I was thinking about.


Yeah, and this is very helpful! How can i find out, whether i have them or not? 



Quernus said:


> *I've managed to understand it like this: Fives do have some trepidation about the future, worried they will be powerless to say "no" in face of some vague and scary external forces. So, they set up a lot of boundaries in advance. They remove themselves from situations where they don't feel useful, powerful, in control - sometimes by isolating, withdrawing intimacy, or immersing themselves in familiarity (hobbies etc).* But they can usually say "no" when needed.


The *bold part* fits! I can only say "no", when i have some kind of plausible excuse at my side and sometimes not even this, if a person is obstinate.



> Another thing I have noticed but this is just my experience and speculation: When 9s do end up "going along" with things instead of saying no, they are more likely to stew inside with quiet resentment. *When 5s end up going along with things (which is less often), they tend to internalize the situation and be angry/self-deprecating toward themselves for ending up in that situation (which would make sense with the whole fear of incompetence thing).*


5 would be more like me, i think.


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## Aletheia (Dec 25, 2014)

mysterio said:


> Perhaps i only "want" to be a 9, because they are liked and peaceful. And no isolating, crude 5?





> But this again, sounds not like me. Or i don't want to see it in myself, because i don't want to be a "bad" person.


Uhhhh. So this is the 3rd/4th time you've insinuated/point blank stated that type 5 is "bad." What gives? The fact that in reply to a description of type 5 having/needing boundaries, being sensitive to demands and having little qualms about saying no when they feel the world/others impeding upon them, you somehow find these to be "bad" or undesirable traits to possess? I mean... c'mon. That alone should tell you a lot.

You're not a 5.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

windspeaks said:


> Uhhhh. So this is the 3rd/4th time you've insinuated/point blank stated that type 5 is "bad." What gives? The fact that in reply to a description of type 5 having/needing boundaries, being sensitive to demands and having little qualms about saying no when they feel the world/others impeding upon them, you somehow find these to be "bad" or undesirable traits to possess? I mean... c'mon. That alone should tell you a lot.
> 
> You're not a 5.


Yeah... OP, regardless of what you end up typing as, what the heck is with the disdain for Fives? I think you have some imbalanced perspectives and maybe some misinformation on the types, which could be clouding your judgment here.


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

windspeaks said:


> Uhhhh. So this is the 3rd/4th time you've insinuated/point blank stated that type 5 is "bad." What gives? The fact that in reply to a description of type 5 having/needing boundaries, being sensitive to demands and having little qualms about saying no when they feel the world/others impeding upon them, you somehow find these to be "bad" or undesirable traits to possess? I mean... c'mon. That alone should tell you a lot.
> 
> You're not a 5.





Quernus said:


> Yeah... OP, regardless of what you end up typing as, what the heck is with the disdain for Fives? I think you have some imbalanced perspectives and maybe some misinformation on the types, which could be clouding your judgment here.


I am sorry! I never intended to offend anyone, really. When i have some "disdain" against anyone, it's only myself! It is quite possible, from what i have heard people say about me, that i could be quite "rude" (perhaps because of boundaries, i don't see having myself?). And i have a problem with this. I don't want to considered rude. So it's possible that i try to be a "nice" type as a 9, for example. Yeah, 9's also have a lot of problems, like 5, and different solutions for this, but i think people in general will like them more, because they think last at themselves, where 5 are more self-concious and more able to say, whether they comply or not. 5 are, in my opionion, way more honest and true to themselves and "know" more, what they want/need. That's cool and i like that. But i am much more "lying/diplomatic" (depends on where you stand) to not hurt anyone, if i can. 

But i am not the one who goes towards other people or texting them (first!). I don't know, whether i fear to be a burden or whether it has some other reason, perhaps cherishing time alone? I don't know (again)! But people think, i am not interested in them or don't like them. Which ist mostly not true.

So i fear to be seen as "rude", "bad" or "cold" or something like this. Yeah, i wanna be seen as cool, but in a friendly, empathic way. And i fear i am lying to myself. A lot of things, which SHOULD bother myself, don't bother me. I want to be selfless, have an ego in not having an ego etc., but is this only wish-thinking? 

I want to be seen as "nice", but also have some complex around this, especially with girls (often being "too nice"). I want to be seen as loyal, trustworthy and stable, but these are all things i WOULD LIKE to be and i doubt that people get this message of me.

So, when other people, who know me, all (more or less) say the same thing (me being a reclusive five, as it is described), i think i am lying to myself about being a nice and peaceful 9, who likes to have people around.

But perhaps you are right: I have too much stereotypes in my head. Perhaps it's perfectly normal that a 5 wants to be nice, peaceful and be empathic etc, but just CAN'T, because of own boundaries, not having enough time for oneself or having fear to be depleted. When THIS is the normal way a 5 thinks, than i think i am one.

Thoughts to my ramblings?


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## Dyidia (May 28, 2010)

Sounds a bit like shame tbh. A lot of people feel shame at discovering how they really are.

ETA: whoops, a bit late



mysterio said:


> But i am not the one who goes towards other people or texting them (first!). I don't know, whether i fear to be a burden or whether it has some other reason, perhaps cherishing time alone? I don't know (again)! But people think, i am not interested in them or don't like them. Which ist mostly not true.


mysterio, I think it might be a good idea to spend time observing yourself, especially in light of any specifics about your "coldness" that the people in your life notice about you. The way in which you distance yourself from others may illuminate more where you really stand.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

mysterio said:


> The *bold part fits! I can only say "no", when i have some kind of plausible excuse at my side and sometimes not even this, if a person is obstinate.
> *


But why? Is it because without a proper reason and explanation, you will ... be _incapable _of taking control of your will, not have the right tools, and feel trapped in a situation? Or is it because you fear conflict, and need an excuse in order to avoid that?




> *When 5s end up going along with things (which is less often), they tend to internalize the situation and be angry/self-deprecating toward themselves for ending up in that situation (which would make sense with the whole fear of incompetence thing).
> 
> *5 would be more like me, i think.​





Haha, well, that was just my speculation. I can't speak for core 5s or core 9s despite having a fix for both, so I would be curious about any input from those types. Regardless, interesting.


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

Dying Acedia said:


> Sounds a bit like shame tbh. A lot of people feel shame at discovering how they really are.
> 
> ETA: whoops, a bit late


Shame, huh? Sounds familiar. I have a lot of this! ;-)



> mysterio, I think it might be a good idea to spend time observing yourself, especially in light of any specifics about your "coldness" that the people in your life notice about you. The way in which you distance yourself from others may illuminate more where you really stand.


I also think this is a great idea! In my childhood my parents often had the problem, that i wouldn't be "polite", i think. Not coming down to them or others, when "guests" were there, for example. I didn't want to "play" with everyone, especially, when i was "forced" to do it. The most examples are around this complex about "social introvert" (i am an ENFP), which was something my parents didn't like so much. ;-)
Other people say, i don't contact them or ask for "dates". They always have to take the initiative and they say, that i have a body posture, which isn't inviting...i don't know! :-D



Quernus said:


> But why? Is it because without a proper reason and explanation, you will ... be _incapable _of taking control of your will, not have the right tools, and feel trapped in a situation? *Or is it because you fear conflict, and need an excuse in order to avoid that?*


Definitly the bold part. I don't want to hurt anybody.



> Haha, well, that was just my speculation. I can't speak for core 5s or core 9s despite having a fix for both, so I would be curious about any input from those types. Regardless, interesting.


Nah! :-D Now i am doubting again! ;-) 
I hate to do things, which are unnecessary in my opinion or feel like a "drag". But if anybody has something of a real problem, where i think i could make a difference, i am there, full armored!


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

Coldspot said:


> Procrastinating is not type specific, I'm a 5 and I procrastinate a lot. Where 5s are concerned though, they might put something off until they believe they have all the info/knowledge that they desire about it beforehand, though this is of course just one excuse for procrastinating.


Yeah, sure, i never thought procrastinating is one trait, which says you are type X. And every type has his ways with procrastinating. But it's interesting to notice that in literature it's almost always the 6 and 9, the 4 and sometimes the 1, who get this trait in these descriptions. These types have different reasons for procrastinating though. I think i am more on the side of having fear being not good enough or don't want to deal with things, because they are hard or i don't want to do them.



> A big part in why I type myself as a 5 is how I relate to the type's vice and fear, avarice and incompetence respectively. These are things that may help in looking to type yourself.


Yeah, but my problem is, i can't really relate to any of it or to all. They are not really "specific". Do you know, what i mean?



periwinklepromise said:


> ...Yeah, you're a 9. 9w1, social-first, as has been stated above.
> 
> I haven't seen any evidence for type 5 at all, while my type 9w1 friend agrees with everything you've said about boundaries, people, self-image, preferred public image, etc. I'd probably guess a 6-fix, instead of 5-fix, but I'd need more information to say anything for sure. I'm honestly not seeing why you keep pushing 5.


I am only "pushing 5", because people, who know me quite well and did the ennegram-test with myself, keep scoring a clear 5 AND think it fits nearly perfect for me! It's the test on this site btw: https://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/type5.php
My mum said this text fits perfectly and explains a lot! So, my great fear is: I am a 5, but don't want to see it AND i am altering my image here at PerC, for you all, who don't know me in person, to get you to type me as a 9w1, which i kind of "want to be", because 9 SHOULD be likeable (perhaps it's also another reason, why i want to be a 9, don't know!)
Makes any sense? It's nothing against the 5, but against me being not so likeable, as i thought and hoped i am. I also would be depressed, if a was indeed a 5, because i would be ashamed of not knowing/seeing myself clearly.

What more information do you need to decide between 6- and 5-fix? I gladly want to give it to you! 



Distortions said:


> I don't know. I think 9w1 works well enough, but they might have thought so because you seem pretty uncertain.
> I wouldn't put it past 5s to procrastinate as well, but that's because they'd worry about being capable enough before they can do anything.


Is a 6 more uncertain as a 9? 



compulsiverambler said:


> Inverse snap!
> We both used to struggle between INTP and INFP before deciding we're extraverts, but you went for ENFP and I for ENTP.
> 
> You thought you were an introvert because you seemed like one socially, while I thought I was one even though to everyone else I seemed like an extravert socially.
> ...


Thanks very much for your very thoughful comment!  I really appreciate your words and your intention. And i think you're right. I don't have to alter myself (or altering seeing myself in a way) to my type. That's really helpful!

But, if we are like some "diametrical twins" (<-- don't know whether this really makes sense! :-D ), it would mean i am indeed a 5 as you are a 9w1! ;-) Destiny! :-D


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## periwinklepromise (Jan 26, 2015)

mysterio said:


> I am only "pushing 5", because people, who know me quite well and did the ennegram-test with myself, keep scoring a clear 5 AND think it fits nearly perfect for me!


Okay, but those people aren't you. You are you. You are the only one who can actually dig inside yourself and "figure out" who you are in this system. Other people can have guesses. They can get vibes from you. They can strongly advocate for a certain typing and say, "That is so type X!" or "Type X is so you!", but at the end of the day, they're _still not you._

Outside perspectives can be helpful, I get that. I had no idea I came across as an 8 when I was getting into Enneagram - that I took up so much psychic space, that I had such a forceful energy, that my physical cues are always amped up to maximum. I thought they were perfectly under control; everyone around me knew otherwise. When I started a Nohari window for fun (long before I got into this system), I was shocked that not a single person agreed with me on what my flaws were. They all agreed with each other, but they didn't see what I saw - I put weak, insecure, passive; they all put hostile, volatile, aggressive, loud, vulgar. (I think we all missed *impatient*, which is what I now claim as my official worst trait.) So obviously, people can be right about you where you miss the mark.

But unless these people actually know anything about the Enneagram, their opinion about this system, or their opinion about your type in this system, won't mean much at all. And even if all of them were experts? 

They're still not you.

And for the rest of what you wrote - I mean, does that honestly sound like something a 5 would do, to you, possibly misrepresenting themselves just so people will like them? Because if I *had* to type anybody based on just this one piece of information, I'd say 9. It sounds to me like you've made type 9 boil down to one superficial trait - likeable - and type 5 to the superficial trait of _not_ likeable/"crude", I think you said earlier in the thread. Both of these are inaccurate, and both of these are - let's face it - useless. 

Your mother says you're a 5. Congrats. 5s say you're not a 5. 9s say you're probably a 9. Why do the opinions of _people who actually know this system and know what they're talking about_ get disregarded for the opinion of someone you know personally? Again, does that sound like Type 5 behavior to you?

I'm getting annoyed with this conversation for no good reason, so I'm stepping out after this.


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

periwinklepromise said:


> Okay, but those people aren't you. You are you. You are the only one who can actually dig inside yourself and "figure out" who you are in this system. Other people can have guesses. They can get vibes from you. They can strongly advocate for a certain typing and say, "That is so type X!" or "Type X is so you!", but at the end of the day, they're _still not you._
> 
> Outside perspectives can be helpful, I get that. I had no idea I came across as an 8 when I was getting into Enneagram - that I took up so much psychic space, that I had such a forceful energy, that my physical cues are always amped up to maximum. I thought they were perfectly under control; everyone around me knew otherwise. When I started a Nohari window for fun (long before I got into this system), I was shocked that not a single person agreed with me on what my flaws were. They all agreed with each other, but they didn't see what I saw - I put weak, insecure, passive; they all put hostile, volatile, aggressive, loud, vulgar. (I think we all missed *impatient*, which is what I now claim as my official worst trait.) So obviously, people can be right about you where you miss the mark.
> 
> ...


Thx for all this input!  I really had to think about all this. But i never intended to mean that you all aren't right! I am only struggling with my doubts (as you can see in my type-me-thread!). And i like to find a type, which fits "perfectly", no loopholes! 9 has the pole-position in this. But not all doubts have left.
How can you tell i haven't "incorporated" type 9 over the years in my view of myself and am showing you only this side? If all the people in my real life would agree with these traits about me (traits in general, not knowledge about enneagram), than all would be good! :-D No loopholes. I read a lot of storys about people, who couldn't find their type, because they thought one type was "bad" (because it was the type of their bad father for example) and coulnd't see themselves being this type. I fear i also do this in way, when people tell me, how i come across and which doesn't fit to my view of myself! -.-


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## Coldspot (Nov 7, 2011)

No type will fit perfectly as the descriptions are not of you, but of general observations. There are many influences in everyone's lives that descriptions cannot take into account.


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

Coldspot said:


> No type will fit perfectly as the descriptions are not of you, but of general observations. There are many influences in everyone's lives that descriptions cannot take into account.


Yeah, that is certainly true. I need to find the type, which kind of explains my behaviour - in general.
But it's really hard for me, to see a pattern without examples of types. And if the examples for the types don't really fit and i can't relate to them, i am kind of screwed.
Perhaps i should do it the other way round? And see, which traits i have (in my opinion and significant others?). I don't know, probably i can see a pattern (or anybody, who likes to help!)?

So, confirmed/said by others (versus personal and possible blind-spot of mine):
- i am good with people (collegue)
- calm, level-headed, cautious (collegues)
- distant, reserved
- nice
- competitive (mother)
- never initiating contact with anybody (friends)
- mindful, thoughtful
- lazy
- intellectual
- know-it-all
- seeing faults always in me
- over-thinker, analysing
- pessimist

i see myself as:
- doubting, indecisive, procrastinating
- clever, fast-thinking
- brainstorm-guy
- idealistic
- can listen well
- contextual thinker (not having much knowledge), generalist
- shy
- a head-type

what i don't i think i am/have:
- boundaries
- assertive
- reckless
- not having an opinion
- confidance
- disciplin, or "a plan"
- problems with authority
- relaxed


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## mysterio (Mar 11, 2012)

Hiho!  Thx for your input! But my doubts already got me! :dry:
So i am having my last fight with myself in figuring out my type! I could really need a hand...
... you find my last type-me-thread-ever here: Final Decision. Thx in advance! roud:


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