# Struggles reflection of type?



## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Sorry if this is a stupid question. 

I've only recently really began tampering with socionics. It clearly focuses on different sort of aspects which I've never clearly thought of before. It's perception and picture painted of each type represents different vibes than many of the other theories and blah blah. 

And I wonder about internal struggles. How they're exactly correlated because I'm not sure yet. 
Keeping away from necessarily weaknesses because I don't think that's what internal struggles are necessarily a reflection of. Because I know there is a general sort of focus on which type one would 'struggle' with, 'admire' etc.. but I'm not sure about what certain sort of 'self struggles' would reflect. 

For example, I've noticed a general theme through my life has been a struggle towards linearity. As a 6 year old I said "I'm going to move back to Europe" and therefore a chain had been formed. For years and years (and still) despite changes in all, it remains a sort of quest. I can't abandon so I must fight, abandon objects and people, struggle with all my obstacles to obtain it (and fallen into a sort of miserable pit so many times due to this because I can't let go)... somehow. I can't 'move on', because I see this as cheating. I fear regret of not accomplishing this. I would rather try and fail than never try, but I fear not having enough power and failing. And I struggle towards this linearity constantly, when I fail I feel weak and useless, when I don't try I feel the same. I get distracted (it's not like I wake up every day thinking about it and worrying) but never for long enough to forget because I know decision day is coming and my big decisions reflect this linear line. I can't forget anything, I don't know how to abandon these formed lines. I just know how to focus on them almost blindly above all else. And I often wonder how much I miss out on around me due to this stubbornness. And I fear of making any sort of genuine emotional bonds with anything around me, because I know as soon as that occurs, I have another obstacle. 

I wonder whether the alpha quadra would really reflect any of this. Or maybe none of it is correlated. 

I wonder if other people experience similar struggles within themselves. Sort of themes. And how they think these themes are a reflection of their label on here.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

My life is a big fight against confusion. My goal is to continually push through. My weakness is that I expect both clarity and lack of effort. There is this current. It is not a concrete goal like yours, but it has developed into something of a meterstick and a consistent theme for pretty much all my interactions and thoughts.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

I think that struggles can outline our motivations, and therefore our cognition. But, every individual has a different struggle, so it becomes complex-- And interesting! But, definitely individual.

My main struggle is a pattern. I have problems with completing what I start, consistency. I may be resilient, but I am not persistent, and I find this to be a problem. I'm easily distracted from my goals, and I have difficulty maintaining a straight route. I admire those who stick to their guns and follow through.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

I struggle with knowing when to take action or initiative and self-promotion and putting myself 'out there.' I tend to wait for things to come to me. I struggle with how to best go about accomplishing a goal or actualizing dreams. I struggle when dealing with overly forceful, aggressive people. Considering my type this should be no surprise.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe. 

What strikes me as interesting in your story is your emphasis on linearity. Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe. I don't have any deep feelings of patriotism but I often feel like an outsider in Canada. I feel I'm living in a permanent hotel. 

There is no rational argument behind my feelings. There are no feelings of longing or nostalgia. I often feel the urge to find the real me because it is something that gets misplaced during the daily scrimmages with society. I am afraid to make emotional connections with people because I am afraid I would have to change who I am and who I want to be in order to gain their acceptance. 

... maybe I would have similar feelings if I stayed in Europe. Whatever it is, it is driven by emotion, by wanting to be honest with myself, by wanting sincerity from other people. Most importantly I don't want to feel like I'm in prison living a life I don't want to live. Or have to close the doors to my secret hopes and dreams.

Maybe it's enneagram. Maybe it's socionics. I don't know but looking back at what I have written it's very Fi. At least it feels personal.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Spastic Origami said:


> Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe.
> 
> What strikes me as interesting in your story is your emphasis on linearity. Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe. I don't have any deep feelings of patriotism but I often feel like an outsider in Canada. I feel I'm living in a permanent hotel.
> 
> ...


Believe me... If you live in a foreign land that's even only slightly different, with a different language, for more than 3 years, you really learn to appreciate home.

It's true what they say... The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Word Dispenser said:


> Believe me... If you live in a foreign land that's even only slightly different, with a different language, for more than 3 years, you really learn to appreciate home.
> 
> It's true what they say... The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.


 ... good point. Thank you.

Except, I don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the pond. Poland may be prospering economically and may have the highest growth rate in European Union but it doesn't change the fact that it has a recent history of social instability and borders with Ukraine making it a stronghold for NATO forces. France has its ethnic conflicts and I rather like English as a language. Some of the writers I'm most fond of happen write in this language.

... what strikes me as being type specific is that I have no desire to put everything in logical, consistent order. I will use logic and argue vehemently about what I believe in. Sometimes I will argue for the pleasure of intellectual exploration. But the events of my life do not always have to make sense. I sometimes think I do but the truth is that I only ever need to resolve whatever emotional baggage I carry. It's definitely not a quest for structure and understanding. 

Man, I can't believe I once thought I was a thinker. Such a mistype on my part. I do appreciate the sympathy Word Dispenser. Thank you.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Spastic Origami said:


> ... good point. Thank you.
> 
> Except, I don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the pond. Poland may be prospering economically and may have the highest growth rate in European Union but it doesn't change the fact that it has a recent history of social instability and borders with Ukraine making it a stronghold for NATO forces. France has its ethnic conflicts and I rather like English as a language. Some of the writers I'm most fond of happen write in this language.
> 
> ...


roud: You're welcome.

And... You know what I mean by 'grass is greener'. We idealize things, we reach for things... But, we should learn to look around and be happy with what we've got. That goes in particular for Ne-dom.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Spastic Origami said:


> Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe.
> 
> What strikes me as interesting in your story is your emphasis on linearity. Tell me more about wanting to move back to Europe. I don't have any deep feelings of patriotism but I often feel like an outsider in Canada. I feel I'm living in a permanent hotel.
> 
> ...


My focus is slightly different. Though I can understand. 
I don't believe there is a real self. We aren't permanent and stagnant, I think we are so much more fluid. There is no "real me" because the me is always changing, I would think. But you seem to be looking for that sort of linearity : linearity of the self. Not that you want stagnation necessarily, but rather to hold on to those established values and not to have to sacrifice them. I believe we are looking towards different things. I'm looking for a linearity in motives. In a sense it is.. at it's core... to finish what I started. This is how I would define as "staying true to myself". But it goes against my nature and I know it does, so I fight it very very hard.

Regarding Europe : Sentiment
There was a point in my life where I genuinely belonged somewhere, it was there, as a child. 
But never again. 
You are split. You will never fully belong to Canada and if you go to Poland, you will never fully belong there either. But the mind tricks us, it makes us think like it is still our home. And it never will be again You are permanently split. 
And in a sense, there is beauty in that. It's all about how you look at it.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

O_o said:


> My focus is slightly different. Though I can understand.
> I don't believe there is a real self. We aren't permanent and stagnant, I think we are so much more fluid. There is no "real me" because the me is always changing, I would think. But you seem to be looking for that sort of linearity : linearity of the self. Not that you want stagnation necessarily, but rather to hold on to those established values and not to have to sacrifice them. I believe we are looking towards different things. I'm looking for a linearity in motives. In a sense it is.. at it's core... to finish what I started. This is how I would define as "staying true to myself". But it goes against my nature and I know it does, so I fight it very very hard.


I never thought of linearity of the self. I never thought to give the self this structure or that logical form could achieve this level of complexity. Now I'll be staying up all night thinking about the extent of this idea.

I do believe there's a genuine self that often gets misplaced. How many times have people betrayed themselves by allowing themselves to be unwillingly defined by external forces? I'm not one to believe the self is unchanging either but there are times when people lose themselves in the commotions of work, media, familial and societal expectations and they have take a moment's time to find themselves and maybe rediscover their best pieces forgotten long ago.

We are leaning towards different things which is why I agree with you. Our struggles are reflected through our type. I'm not sure if it's a question of specific functions, their strength and whether or not we value these functions. Or whether it's a question of enneagram or something new altogether. Interestingly enough, I think our solutions are also reflected through our type and our interaction with other types.



> Regarding Europe : Sentiment
> There was a point in my life where I genuinely belonged somewhere, it was there, as a child.
> But never again.
> You are split. You will never fully belong to Canada and if you go to Poland, you will never fully belong there either. But the mind tricks us, it makes us think like it is still our home. And it never will be again You are permanently split.
> And in a sense, there is beauty in that. It's all about how you look at it.


That is true. Maybe this is also what makes us free. We are no longer bound by the shackles of culture and we are free to observe and understand things as they really occur without the weighted commitment of tradition. It's quite beautiful actually and I'm happy to live without any unnecessary bondage.

In all honestly, there's no guarantee that I wouldn't feel like an outsider if I stayed put in one place. Maybe this is the cost of freedom.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Spastic Origami said:


> I never thought of linearity of the self. I never thought to give the self this structure or that logical form could achieve this level of complexity. Now I'll be staying up all night thinking about the extent of this idea.
> 
> I do believe there's a genuine self that often gets misplaced. How many times have people betrayed themselves by allowing themselves to be unwillingly defined by external forces? I'm not one to believe the self is unchanging either but there are times when people lose themselves in the commotions of work, media, familial and societal expectations and they have take a moment's time to find themselves and maybe rediscover their best pieces forgotten long ago.
> 
> ...


You know, sometimes I feel like it's so easy to get caught up in this whole thing. 
Is it enneagram? cognitive function? is it... 
I was reflecting before on how much time I spent personally trying to figure out myself within the system. It had me thinking I didn't know myself. Who am I in this system and where do I fit?
Every time I did find a fit I felt satisfied to an extent, it made me feel like I could concur the system. But not really. It was all so irrelevant in the end.

They're only titles. 

So regarding my struggle and your struggle. How it's a reflection of "our type", what "type"? It's a reflection of you and me right now. Giving it a title doesn't change what it is. Using the titles as a reason for their existence only masks their essence. They're not the reason. As long as you can understand it for that. Why title it? Why is the MBTI distributed in the first place? For people to learn how to categorize themselves, as a sort of "enlightenment" but what more, exactly. They're only that : titles to what was always there to begin with. God knows how many things I've known in and out without knowing their title. 

idk. It seems so straight forward, right? Obvious. But you'd be surprised.

Maybe I'm being entirely irrelevant. It happens.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

Or maybe you know yourself too well? Think about the population of Canada which is a mere 35 million. America is at least ten times as large. Do you think that half a billion people living on this continent could be packages cleanly into 16 categories that are caricatures at best?

It's funny. I don't want to argue against this because I feel it would take us further away from the truth.

I never found enlightenment in typology. At most it helped me look outside myself by showing me how different people think and how different people experience the world. Bridge communication gaps. Inwards, maybe I asked questions of myself I would have never bothered to ask. Maybe the idea is to find an adjective. Not a verb. Because I identify with a certain type doesn't mean I restrict myself to the limitations of this type. Adjective.

... I can't begin to count the times where language failed me. And I love words. They betray me because I try and can't always express myself. Many things are beyond language. Words are also labels for things.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Spastic Origami said:


> Or maybe you know yourself too well? Think about the population of Canada which is a mere 35 million. America is at least ten times as large. Do you think that half a billion people living on this continent could be packages cleanly into 16 categories that are caricatures at best?
> 
> It's funny. I don't want to argue against this because I feel it would take us further away from the truth.
> 
> ...


No. I agree. It has helped me come to similar realizations. 
But we differ in that I never really had communication gaps to begin with. Outside of the system I still knew how to pick up on these subtle differences, craft myself around them. The difference is that now they have a name. They're organized. And other things, of course. 
The only enlightenment it failed to sort of provide was about myself, to an extent. So what I write is personal. It crafted a distraction, when before it and during it I already knew where I was going in life, what I wanted out of it, what I wanted to become, what my struggles and strengths were. What my type is has just stuck a name on it, but not really made me realize it was there to begin with. If anything, I attempted to use it in the wrong sort of way, as a sort of outward mask (as disgusting as that is). It's healthier for me, personally, not to know. And again, it's personal. I can definitely definitely see how it has helped in making others grow. 

Has language failed you due to the language differences? Or for other reasons. But I know what you mean : it's one thing to understand yourself and it's another skill to understand yourself within the borders of language. If we can't understand what we are trying to say within the border of language, then we obviously can't express it. But that's the cool thing about language~ there isn't only one way. There are multiple words for the same thing. But the same thing exists, regardless. 

(and now I start to really ramble) Words, just like these personality typing terms, are all subjective to an extent though. They have a "broad, overall meaning" understood by all, but it is always different. How we use the terms is a reflection of how we define them. I've brought this up before, but just like all the personality typing tests on line. What is their main flaw and why do they always seem vague? : multiple perspectives. How you answer demonstrates what type that particular test maker thinks of you to be, not necessarily which type you genuinely are. It demonstrates his or her perspective. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, but every single definition will always be fluid as long as differences in human perspective are present.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

I guess what I'm trying to say is. This is just language. 
I've been struggling to use it's vocabulary to fit myself and have been having a hard time. 
So I think : why? why use the language?
There is other vocabulary.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

Spastic Origami said:


> ... good point. Thank you.
> 
> Except, I don't think the grass is greener on the other side of the pond. Poland may be prospering economically and may have the highest growth rate in European Union but it doesn't change the fact that it has a recent history of social instability and borders with Ukraine making it a stronghold for NATO forces. France has its ethnic conflicts and I rather like English as a language. Some of the writers I'm most fond of happen write in this language.
> 
> ...


What made you decide that these were the correct criteria, the difference between constant order and use of logic? What examples of people besides yourself illustrating this difference do you have? Just curious because I've been exploring this notion of constant order as it relates to myself, too.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

... @_tangosthenes_, I don't know. It's something that came naturally in the flow of the conversation. I read 's posts and I understood that I would never think her thoughts unless they were presented to me by another person.

My father is quick to make logical connections, construct theories and procedures, however they are always at the expense of observation. His theories border on the ludicrous but they are always well structured and methodical. He is in the habit of changing his observations to fit the structure and not changing his thoughts based on his observations.

I never thought to apply logic, structure and linear continuity to the idea of being. I would use logic to give form to my thoughts, observations and as a means of explaining my position on an issue. My relationship with structure is that I have studied mathematics and formal logic extensively throughout high school and I taught myself how to write code back in the mid 1990s. They are tools, tools I use extensively, but there's no real connection. I don't even strive for consistency in thought.



... @__. Learning languages has never been much of an issue. I learned both French and English with great ease. I taught myself programming languages and toying with the idea of learning Latin. Just for the laughs. The limitation is that I think visually, conceptually and holistically. The problem is deciding what is an important detail and what is superfluous. Very often I write paragraph upon paragraph upon paragraph because everything happens so quickly and I want to capture the extent of my thought and I want to capture is accurately. I wish I would mentally project an image, a sensation or emotion and articulate it with only a few words. Language is an inefficient medium. But at the same time I like the ambiguity of language which creates new images and new sensations and new perceptions. It's really cool actually, this interaction, like a perpetual motion machine inside our minds.

Type is broad strokes. You can't do detail work on a Renaissance style painting with a paint roller. ENFP/IEE just happens to be my paint roller. It's great for capturing contours, basic colors and such. Portrait work, nope. Won't work. Imagine doing microsurgery with a run of the mill Black and Decker.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

@*Spastic Origami.
*I really like the way you type. 

But I understand what you mean, that process of condensing. And that's something that involves seizing, there's sense of manipulation of it, you have to know how to bend language the right way to form that single image, sensation or emotion which you're understanding in your gut and visualizing. Just like you just imagine it as a whole and single thing, that process of condensing it into a few powerful words to get the same strength across. I actually struggle with this too, it's why I usually write so much. But there is a lot of power in it; it's harder to condense than to expand. 

I think type is both. It's broad and very detailed. I think it's important to have both of these realizations side by side. For appreciation purposes. It might not seem like detailed work, but it always is.



> My father is quick to make logical connections, construct theories and procedures, however they are always at the expense of observation. His theories border on the ludicrous but they are always well structured and methodical. He is in the habit of changing his observations to fit the structure and not changing his thoughts based on his observations.



He's trying to mold observation. He doesn't seem to take it as a concrete sort of... rock, which others might. He might see observation as a possible mask, something with multiple interpretations and more vague than others. I always wonder if this is more of a flaw or skill. 
It might be the difference between thinking clearly and thinking deeply. I usually don't quote folk but : since Tesla has been relevant to what I've been studying lately : "Scientists today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly. One can think deeply and be quite insane". "sane vs insane" is kind of strong and obviously subjective, but I think it get's a similar point across.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

O_o said:


> He's trying to mold observation. He doesn't seem to take it as a concrete sort of... rock, which others might. He might see observation as a possible mask, something with multiple interpretations and more vague than others. I always wonder if this is more of a flaw or skill.




This is exactly what he trusts me to do.

Maybe we give one another confidence to take chances with out weaknesses. I know I'm not pragmatist: The greatest criticism I received from any one of my school teachers was that I am disorganized, that my work lacks structure in spite of its rhetorical impact and originality of thought and that I have absolutely no discipline. Guess who I go to for specific concrete advice? Dad. I wonder if he constructs his theories so that I could make the necessary observations and fill in the missing gaps. I was reflecting upon our relationship and I know he doesn't indulge his speculative side with mom or my sister.

... sister on my essays: nice poetic meter, otherwise bullshit. We are talking about struggles, are we not?

?I t'ndid ,llew liared siht pu derevoc I


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

Spastic Origami said:


> This is exactly what he trusts me to do.
> [/COLOR]
> Maybe we give one another confidence to take chances with out weaknesses. I know I'm not pragmatist: The greatest criticism I received from any one of my school teachers was that I am disorganized, that my work lacks structure in spite of its rhetorical impact and originality of thought and that I have absolutely no discipline. Guess who I go to for specific concrete advice? Dad. I wonder if he constructs his theories so that I could make the necessary observations and fill in the missing gaps. I was reflecting upon our relationship and I know he doesn't indulge his speculative side with mom or my sister.
> 
> ...


Wow...that's pretty close to exactly my feedback in essays. My rebuttal was...if I made a good point, who gives a shit? Battled with writing down the flow of thought as comprehensively and compactly as possible vs. cutting it up for the grade. Too much structure equals a lot of extra words with diluted meaning, and I don't like wasting my time reading them, let alone writing them.


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