# Why do ISTJs have such a bad rap?



## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

Apart from the generalized descriptions, I've read several times about clashes between STJs and NFPs...usually along the lines of procedural strictness vs. freespirit-ness. Most descriptions makes them seem very cold and robotic, perhaps that's how they look from the outside, but all the functions are are Si, Te, Fi, and Ne. 

For instance, my ISTJ mother does stereotypically keep her stuff organized and gets upset if the house is messy, getting into our room (or any room) for a cleaning binge is a regular habit. She doesn't understand *not* getting things done (or getting them done last minute), wants things done right, has a strong sense of responsibility, and is naturally quiet and analytical. 

However, she's far from stuck in tradition. She doesn't abandon it for the sake of it, but she firmly believes in changing and adapting to what works better. She doesn't force her way, isn't controlling, is warm, and is a great conversationalist. She has a very playful sense of humor too. Thoughts?


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

Then she's obviously not an ISTJ. :laughing:


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## Caraxor (Apr 21, 2015)

She could be an ISFJ instead of an ISTJ?


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## JacksonHeights (Nov 6, 2015)

Some of them only talk about their "to do" list or about what's currently going on, so there is no chance for me to really be creative around them. Like usually I love talking about my visions for the world or crazy things I can do over the winter break and they just dont reply, like I dont think they understand what "hypothetical" means. They're "nice guys" pero like nice guys aren't exciting


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## niss (Apr 25, 2010)

Because people buy into stereotypes and rarely take the time to ask questions of the ISTJ.


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## Convex (Jan 5, 2015)

The best humor is when you fit right into the crowd of the stupid, like you belong. Force them to ponder Poe's law; raise their ego, to only shatter it worse than when it started once you reveal your true perspective. Some may enjoy keeping that to themselves, to let the their ego get them into a situation that they can't get out of, to not shatter it, but destroy it, beyond repair. Some are evil. I am not. I want to leave you with this thought: was this post used to cover-up a mistake I regret?


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

Caraxor said:


> She could be an ISFJ instead of an ISTJ?


 She's not. She's the most logical person I've met. Not saying ISFJs are illogical of course.


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

niss said:


> Because people buy into stereotypes and rarely take the time to ask questions of the ISTJ.


Thank you, I have noticed she tends to be looked over (unless people need tech support oddly enough). For some reason, there have been a few people who took her for being angry/bitter because of her silence. Or in the case of disagreement, unforgiving if she doesn't...I don't know...feel tremendously apologetic/guilty about being wrong? It's irritating to watch that kind of reasoning.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

My father is an ISTJ and while I love him and all, we tend to clash when it comes to problem-solving. He sometimes can see me as impractical and oblivious when I talk to him about my future plans and ideas because they seem impossible or even farfetched by his standards. Though he does admit that I have a couple advantages with my wild imagination. He mostly reflects on past experiences to solve problems by automatically choosing what worked then. He's very set in his ways and can be stubborn like myself. I'm willing to solve problems by relying on past successes too, but sometimes I'm convinced that a different solution should be more efficient. I'm also open to taking a more experimental approach when necessary, but he sees this as too risky and a waste of time.


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## Ksara (Feb 13, 2014)

From my perspective, 'the cold and robotic' stereotype is incorrect. If anything the 'lawyer' makes more sense.

I think what it comes down to is the concept of freedom. For an xNFP type freedom is the idea to do anything that is possible. It is all about the worth of ideas and their potential. Often the 'rules or procedures' can get in the way of this creativity. If the xNFP has low value for a rule and they think it is stupid, they can see it as restricting their freedom (an may proceed to break the rule to obtain their idea of freedom).

The xSTJ on the other hand sees following the rules and procedures as freedom. That is, if you break a rule and get caught what happens? your freedom is restricted. Now this is where I think the 'lawyer' stereotype fits well. If you know the rules of the game, you know what you can do within those limits to achieve what you want. Even better if you find a loop hole somewhere. The best part? You can not be 'caught out' as you have not broken any rule/law/procedure to be penalised. This idea is also freedom.

Even down to how one deals with planning. An xNFP may see a plan as restrictive. What if they have another idea? or something better comes up? the plan does not allow the freedom to change ones mind. From an xSTJ perspective the plan is freedom. It allows the individual to reach the goal they want, in the time that suits them, in a way that they prefer and restrict any unexpected events that may get in the way. Such unexpected events are a distraction and this hinders their freedom to reach such goals.

Someone who is less understanding may see the ISTJ as a boring rule follower, and an xNFP as an eccentric rule breaker.

Neither is better or worst. Just different perspective one holds. Each perspective has some value as it often leads to useful skills that can be applied in different areas. Someone who gives a type a 'bad rap' can only see one side of the coin and can not see the whole coin has some sort of worth.


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

Ksara said:


> From my perspective, 'the cold and robotic' stereotype is incorrect. If anything the 'lawyer' makes more sense.
> 
> I think what it comes down to is the concept of freedom. For an xNFP type freedom is the idea to do anything that is possible. It is all about the worth of ideas and their potential. Often the 'rules or procedures' can get in the way of this creativity. If the xNFP has low value for a rule and they think it is stupid, they can see it as restricting their freedom (an may proceed to break the rule to obtain their idea of freedom).
> 
> ...


This sounds like exactly something she'd say.


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## EccentricSiren (Sep 3, 2013)

The thing I've noticed with ISTJs is they usually have a wicked sense of humor that doesn't necessary get shown to a lot of people and they have a really strong playful side if you can just get them to tap into it. They come across as kind of cold and robotic and overly practical at first, but with the ones I've known, if you get in touch with their playful side, they're a a lot of fun!


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## Kurt Wagner (Aug 2, 2014)

People are lazy and stupid. ISTJs, therefore, get bad rep.

This is simple logic.


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## grimoire (Nov 7, 2015)

People who are very into MBTI on the internet tend to be introverted perceivers, and introverted perceivers have all inevitably met _that one_ SJ who spoiled the whole lot for them--which really isn't fair at all since SJs are a very common temperament.

This also is an example of the good old 'mistaking MBTI as a personality indicator' issue which plagues nearly everyone who has even heard of MBTI types. Functions and types only show how you think and process the world. They don't necessarily indicate your personality or how you behave, and while they often contribute to those two things so do many other things. The knee-jerk reactions againt ISTJs and other SJ types is IMO another example of why there's such a bias toward typing as intuitives in the MBTI community (which honestly I do believe that a good portion of intuitives are mistyped sensors due to the scalding stereotypes against sensors, which is quite a shame overall).


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## MisterPerfect (Nov 20, 2015)

Since S is for Sinister! 

Bahahaha ignore me I know im not helping


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

LittleDicky said:


> Since S is for Sinister!
> 
> Bahahaha ignore me I know im not helping


lol, how could I? The comment made me audibly chuckle.


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

grimoire said:


> People who are very into MBTI on the internet tend to be introverted perceivers, and introverted perceivers have all inevitably met _that one_ SJ who spoiled the whole lot for them--which really isn't fair at all since SJs are a very common temperament.


I was just thinking about that a day or two ago. I think I read somewhere that SJs are over 10% of the population, that's a large part of the population to dismiss. 



grimoire said:


> This also is an example of the good old 'mistaking MBTI as a personality indicator' issue which plagues nearly everyone who has even heard of MBTI types. Functions and types only show how you think and process the world. They don't necessarily indicate your personality or how you behave, and while they often contribute to those two things so do many other things. The knee-jerk reactions againt ISTJs and other SJ types is IMO another example of why there's such a bias toward typing as intuitives in the MBTI community (which honestly I do believe that a good portion of intuitives are mistyped sensors due to the scalding stereotypes against sensors, which is quite a shame overall).


Agreed.


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## Beatriz (Oct 18, 2015)

I don't know why they're so hated. ISTJ is one of my favourite types. My dad is an ISTJ and he is so dedicated to his family, he wants to make sure everyone has a good life. He works so much to give his family a comfortable life. Honestly, I admire him so much, I couldn't thank him enough. I also had a teacher who I'm sure was an ISTJ, and he was definitely one of the best teachers I've ever had, I'll never forget how much he inspired me. He sure is a big role model. I could see how passionate he was for his job, always doing his best to provide good material to his students. I love how ISTJs are so dedicated, it makes me want to be like them. I love how their passions are silent but big! Oh, and also, their humour is BRILLIANT. They tell the best jokes ever, I'm not even kidding! And they can tell these jokes with a total neutral look on their face which makes it even funnier. Yes, they can be cold at first, but once you get to know them, they're so friendly and nice. They are the most loyal friends you could ever have. ISTJs are so dear!


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## Handsome Jack (May 31, 2015)

Luke Skywalker said:


> People are lazy and stupid. ISTJs, therefore, get bad rep.
> 
> This is simple logic.


This. SJs keep this world running.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ISTJs are the "workhorses" that make it possible for people like me to sit and think inventive thoughts. I don't think they deserve a bad rap.


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## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

An entire group has a characteristic, because I know one person from that group that has that characteristic.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Stickman said:


> An entire group has a characteristic, because I know one person from that group that has that characteristic.


Stereotype? I thought perhaps we were guessing the term from the definition...


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## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Stereotype? I thought perhaps we were guessing the term from the definition...


I was thinking 'generalization', but close enough.


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## Green Girl (Oct 1, 2010)

It seems like ISTJs keep their eye on the goal. They know that to reach a goal, you have to have a plan or a system in place - and then you have to make that plan or system work. You can't just set up a plan and then go off and do something else - you have to maintain it over time. If you do that, and the plan is a good one, you'll reach the goal. It's a simple strategy and works great. I especially like working with ISTJs, because they are clear about what they are doing and you can count on them to do it, or ask for help if the plan isn't working. They will also accept when the plan needs to be changed. You will have to convince them that the new plan is better, but that's a benefit - it saves wasted effort if you think about why you are doing something.

I think the problem comes in when other people don't get what the ISTJ is trying to accomplish, or get bored and want to try something new, or just have different goals. The ISTJ can't figure out why the other person doesn't get what is so glaringly obvious. As in, "To have clean clothes on a regular basis, you have to wash them once a week." The other person can't figure out why the ISTJ can't see what is glaringly obvious. As in, "I don't like doing laundry - there are so many other fun things to do. I'll wash my clothes when I have nothing left to wear."

The result is laundry discord.


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## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Green Girl said:


> It seems like ISTJs keep their eye on the goal. They know that to reach a goal, you have to have a plan or a system in place - and then you have to make that plan or system work. You can't just set up a plan and then go off and do something else - you have to maintain it over time. If you do that, and the plan is a good one, you'll reach the goal. It's a simple strategy and works great. I especially like working with ISTJs, because they are clear about what they are doing and you can count on them to do it, or ask for help if the plan isn't working. They will also accept when the plan needs to be changed. You will have to convince them that the new plan is better, but that's a benefit - it saves wasted effort to think about why you are doing something.
> 
> I think the problem comes in when other people don't get what the ISTJ is trying to accomplish, or get bored and want to try something new, or just have different goals. The ISTJ can't figure out why the other person doesn't get what is so glaringly obvious. As in, "To have clean clothes on a regular basis, you have to wash them once a week." The other person can't figure out why the ISTJ can't see what is glaringly obvious. As in, "I don't like doing laundry - there are so many other fun things to do. I'll wash my clothes when I have nothing left to wear."
> 
> The result is laundry discord.


Doing your laundry all at once is much more efficient than doing them when you still have clothing left to wear. Less effort, same outcome.

This was my argument when my parents used to tell me to do my laundry. My way is better, and so I will do it my way. I do not impose on your way. Do not impose on mine.


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## Green Girl (Oct 1, 2010)

Stickman said:


> Doing your laundry all at once is much more efficient than doing them when you still have clothing left to wear. Less effort, same outcome.
> 
> This was my argument when my parents used to tell me to do my laundry. My way is better, and so I will do it my way. I do not impose on your way. Do not impose on mine.


I'm sure your parents had a response like this: "If you wait until the last minute, you might run out of clothes at at time it will be inconvenient or impossible to wash them. Also, you'll spend most of your time with most of your clothes dirty, so you won't have as many options to wear. Also, all the dirty clothes get stinky."

It's the great, unending laundry debate. I am more of your school of thought, but there are never any winners.


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## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Green Girl said:


> I'm sure your parents had a response like this: "If you wait until the last minute, you might run out of clothes at at time it will be inconvenient or impossible to wash them. Also, you'll spend most of your time with most of your clothes dirty, so you won't have as many options to wear. Also, all the dirty clothes get stinky."
> 
> It's the great, unending laundry debate. I am more of your school of thought, but there are never any winners.


Sure there are. If they leave me alone, I win. Or at least I get what I want and doesn't that mean winning?


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## Sangmu (Feb 18, 2014)

Personally I love XSTJs because of their values and reliability, and ISTJs are my favorite. 

They are like ESTJs but warmer due to tertiary Fi rather than inferior Fi, and they're quieter. ESTJs can talk WAY too much about completely mundane (mundane IMO) details. I'm guessing just to hear themselves talk.

Anyway - what hell's not to like about a well-rounded ISTJ? Having one in your life is like having Lassie the dog in your life.


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## great_pudgy_owl (Apr 20, 2015)

WhateverLolaWants said:


> Anyway - what hell's not to like about a well-rounded ISTJ? Having one in your life is like having Lassie the dog in your life.


I love this analogy! xD


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