# Anti-Intellectualism and Black America



## wafflecake (Aug 30, 2010)

I never said that hip-hop was inherently anti-intellectual:


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

Dead Prez are the _perfect_ people to quote, but you should understand who it is these rappers are talking about and who it is they are talking to and what exactly they are saying.

I suggest you go get that album and listen to it with a little less ego.

Listen very closely.

Like DMX said "If you think you know then I don't think you know"

and Hip Hop is not a culture, it isn't. It's an art form that expresses itself in a larger culture i.e Black Culture.
Stop picking out what you want to hear.

"But you don't hear me though" -Biggie Smalls.
"They listen but they don't hear" -Common


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

How about this, examine the personal lives of your personal idols.

If you succeed in whatever you are trying to achieve your personal life will be very similar.


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> I didn't think you were old enough to know who blackstar is.


Huh, I'm 24 not 4, besides the album was released on my birthday.

======

But I feel this sort of angst from the OP is very questionable.


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## KrystRay (Jun 16, 2010)

So, back on topic... I notice this as well, but also in "white America." I don't understand it, but it's like its a trend and the latest craze for some priviliged white kids to "talk street" and fail out of college... I just see them as posing losers who don't care if they shame their families. 

Point of me being on this post is, I'd like to know if there is a solution. There is a church group here that goes into this city called Belle Glade and ministers to urban youth. It is a very poor city and there is a high AIDS population there as well. So, if someone like me- a pretty, well-spoken white girl were to go there, would I make an impact? I love children, but I just don't feel like the older ones would respect me because I'm almost the complete opposite of what they see every day. That and I'm not going to lie, I'm scared. I don't even listen to rap music, so I'm not up on the lingo... 

Does a once a week church group really impact those kids' lives? I don't know. Any insight?


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> So, back on topic... I notice this as well, but also in "white America." I don't understand it, but it's like its a trend and the latest craze for some priviliged white kids to "talk street" and fail out of college... I just see them as posing losers who don't care if they shame their families.
> 
> Point of me being on this post is, I'd like to know if there is a solution. There is a church group here that goes into this city called Belle Glade and ministers to urban youth. It is a very poor city and there is a high AIDS population there as well. So, if someone like me- a pretty, well-spoken white girl were to go there, would I make an impact? I love children, but I just don't feel like the older ones would respect me because I'm almost the complete opposite of what they see every day. That and I'm not going to lie, I'm scared. I don't even listen to rap music, so I'm not up on the lingo...
> 
> Does a once a week church group really impact those kids' lives? I don't know. Any insight?


You won't make much impact, but you might make some.
I suggest you go for your own edification.
Be humble.
Ask questions.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

Gaminegirlie said:


> But I feel this sort of angst from the OP is very questionable.


intp and infp are angst defined.


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> So, back on topic... I notice this as well, but also in "white America." I don't understand it, but it's like its a trend and the latest craze for some priviliged white kids to "talk street" and fail out of college... I just see them as posing losers who don't care if they shame their families.
> 
> Point of me being on this post is, I'd like to know if there is a solution. There is a church group here that goes into this city called Belle Glade and ministers to urban youth. It is a very poor city and there is a high AIDS population there as well. So, if someone like me- a pretty, well-spoken white girl were to go there, would I make an impact? I love children, but I just don't feel like the older ones would respect me because I'm almost the complete opposite of what they see every day. That and I'm not going to lie, I'm scared. I don't even listen to rap music, so I'm not up on the lingo...
> 
> Does a once a week church group really impact those kids' lives? I don't know. Any insight?


The fact that you are walking in there with pre-conceptions is disturbing.
'someone like you, a pretty bla blah' confounding.

You should question your motives, if you really love children I don't think you
should really be concerned about how much of an impact..except you are just 
looking to keep score and tick something off your 'things to do before I kick the bucket list'

I have never seen where true love failed to make an impact.


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## KrystRay (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm sorry, do you know someone who doesn't have preconceptions? I'm sorry for observing the world and aggreeing that I see that there is some substance to what the OP is saying, then pointing out the fact that my lifestyle is obviously different than someone elses. 

My motive for posting here was clearly made. I would like to find a way to help. Or is that racist of me?


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> I'm sorry, do you know someone who doesn't have preconceptions? I'm sorry for observing the world and aggreeing that I see that there is some substance to what the OP is saying, then pointing out the fact that my lifestyle is obviously different than someone elses.
> 
> My motive for posting here was clearly made. I would like to find a way to help. Or is that racist of me?


Yes we all have pre-conceptions, but letting that cloud your mind is where the real problem lies. If it's so bad, you can also make an impact from the comfort of your home.

<<I don't understand how your prettiness has to do with anything for example, you may not even be pretty in their eyes>>


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

I foresee a girl-fight.

I'd like to see a naked-baby-oil cage match.

Hold on, I need to get my popcorn and jergens.


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## KrystRay (Jun 16, 2010)

Again, I fail to see how preconceptions are a problem. Especially since I'm an ESTJ, where I try to see the world for what it is and then trying to make it better. You are clearly getting emotional about this whole thread. No one was making an attack on you. The OP made an observation, based on fact, and your spin on the entire thread has taken it down a completely different path. 

And BTW, I was stereotyping in my descreption of myself. I really don't care who thinks I'm pretty or not.


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## KrystRay (Jun 16, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> I foresee a girl-fight.
> 
> I'd like to see a naked-baby-oil cage match.
> 
> Hold on, I need to get my popcorn and jergens.


Ewe. I actually loled.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> Ewe. I actually loled.


It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> Again, I fail to see how preconceptions are a problem. Especially since I'm an ESTJ, where I try to see the world for what it is and then trying to make it better. You are clearly getting emotional about this whole thread. No one was making an attack on you. The OP made an observation, based on fact, and your spin on the entire thread has taken it down a completely different path.
> 
> And BTW, I was stereotyping in my descreption of myself. I really don't care who thinks I'm pretty or not.


Boy am I glad to hear that!, couldn't quite discern 'sarcasm' out of your first post and no I'm not getting emotional, Miss Sensor. And where did the talk of an 'attack' come from???

Pray tell what path I've taken this entire thread down, if anything you have tried to shine the spotlight on you
and your 'Wanna save the world one Aids-ridden community at a time' self.

and No..you only failed to read properly.:mellow:


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## wafflecake (Aug 30, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> intp and infp are angst defined.


What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

Next time I'll title the thread "Anti-Intellectualism in America (but especially so in modern Top 40 rap culture".


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## hood (Jun 15, 2010)

KrystRay said:


> So, back on topic... I notice this as well, but also in "white America." I don't understand it, but it's like its a trend and the latest craze for some priviliged white kids to "talk street" and fail out of college... I just see them as posing losers who don't care if they shame their families.
> 
> Point of me being on this post is, I'd like to know if there is a solution. There is a church group here that goes into this city called Belle Glade and ministers to urban youth. It is a very poor city and there is a high AIDS population there as well. So, if someone like me- a pretty, well-spoken white girl were to go there, would I make an impact? I love children, but I just don't feel like the older ones would respect me because I'm almost the complete opposite of what they see every day. That and I'm not going to lie, I'm scared. I don't even listen to rap music, so I'm not up on the lingo...
> 
> Does a once a week church group really impact those kids' lives? I don't know. Any insight?


I'm just coming from personal experience, and from once being that type of kid, but youth in that situation usually only respect those who've been in similar situations or worse, or at least has done something they deem as deserving of their respect and attention. They won't give a flying shit about college degrees, awards, any type of professional qualifications... It's more about the raw person you are that gets them, and how strongly you can hold yourself up because most of those kids in situations like that may be a lot stronger than you.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

hood said:


> I'm just coming from personal experience, and from once being that type of kid, but youth in that situation usually only respect those who've been in similar situations or worse, or at least has done something they deem as deserving of their respect and attention. They won't give a flying shit about college degrees, awards, any type of professional qualifications... It's more about the raw person you are that gets them, and how strongly you can hold yourself up because most of those kids in situations like that may be a lot stronger than you.


Like I told her.
Be humble, hell is right here on earth for some people and noone gives a fuck about your opinion if you've not beem through it yourself.


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## teddy564339 (Jun 23, 2010)

Going back to the OP...

I know it's probably stupid to use a Chris Rock bit to discuss an issue like this, but it was one of the first things that popped into my mind:








(The main part I'm thinking of starts around the 2:55 mark).


Now, I'm not well versed enough in black history and slavery to say how much truth there is to any of the bit. But for the sake speculation, I'm going to temporarily assume it's true in this post. 

It got me thinking about the whole type thing....has there ever been any study on how type varies from race to race in the US? If there's any truth to the Chris Rock bit, would it be possible that due to this "breeding" of slaves, that the percentage of N's, T's, or NT's is smaller among the black population in the US? Is it possible that this could have some impact on this anti-intellectualism that was mentioned?

Of course, I'm sure that in some way, shape, or form, the lack of equal education up until the Civil Rights movement has probably had some impact on the current culture as well. One would hope that after 45 years or so there would be less of this "anti-intellectualism", but the whole aspect of culture, urban history, political motivations/conspiracies, access to resources/education (or lack thereof), and socio-economic class differences all impact the whole situation making it extremely complex, at least for a little SF like me. :wink:


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## entperson (Sep 14, 2009)

teddy564339 said:


> Going back to the OP...
> 
> I know it's probably stupid to use a Chris Rock bit to discuss an issue like this, but it was one of the first things that popped into my mind:
> 
> ...


What Chris Rock says is somewhat true, there was legislation passed in the New England colonies after Cato's Rebellion which made it illegal for anyone to teach slaves to read. There were also laws stating that a master could kill a slave without repercussion so long as it was on his own property. The reason Cato's rebellion is significant is because the slave, Cato, was traded from the Portuguese, who operated under Code Noir for slave trade. Code Noir maintained a slaves dignity and allowed for voluntary manumission if the slave could earn enough money to buy his own freedom. It also allowed slaves one day a week, besides Sunday, to work for himself or whatever else he wanted. So a lot of slaves taught themselves to read for work so they could eventually buy their own freedom. Cato was fluent in both Spanish and Portuguese and was extremely intelligent and literate and lead 100 slaves to kill 30 colonists in South Carolina because the slave laws within the British colonies were brutal compared to the Spanish, French, and Portuguese. He knew there was another way, the British colonies saw intelligence as a threat and took matters into their own hands.

The catholic colonies were another story, you had many a free African within Louisiana and Florida. The Treme neighborhood in New Orleans is the very first free black community in the US and it was established in 1783. So in certain areas the idea that the intelligent were killed off and therefore genetically there are very few left could be true. But certainly not for all of the US. And that is only assuming that personality type and intelligence are genetic, which is questionable.

I think the biggest factor here is the lack of equal education prior to the civil rights movement, and the negative impact the civil rights movement had on the images of all sides involved. Let's be honest, many people still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. Some people can't let things go.


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## wafflecake (Aug 30, 2010)

entperson said:


> ...legislation passed in the New England colonies after Cato's Rebellion which made it illegal for anyone to teach slaves to read. There were also laws stating that a master could kill a slave without repercussion so long as it was on his own property. The reason Cato's rebellion is significant is because the slave, Cato, was traded from the Portuguese, who operated under Code Noir for slave trade. Code Noir maintained a slaves dignity and allowed for voluntary manumission if the slave could earn enough money to buy his own freedom. It also allowed slaves one day a week, besides Sunday, to work for himself or whatever else he wanted. So a lot of slaves taught themselves to read for work so they could eventually buy their own freedom. Cato was fluent in both Spanish and Portuguese and was extremely intelligent and literate and lead 100 slaves to kill 30 colonists in South Carolina because the slave laws within the British colonies were brutal compared to the Spanish, French, and Portuguese. He knew there was another way, the British colonies saw intelligence as a threat and took matters into their own hands.
> 
> The catholic colonies were another story, you had many a free African within Louisiana and Florida. The Treme neighborhood in New Orleans is the very first free black community in the US and it was established in 1783. So in certain areas the idea that the intelligent were killed off and therefore genetically there are very few left could be true. But certainly not for all of the US. And that is only assuming that personality type and intelligence are genetic, which is questionable.


I learned something today.

Word.


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## PyrLove (Jun 6, 2010)

entperson said:


> I think the biggest factor here is the lack of equal education prior to the civil rights movement, and the negative impact the civil rights movement had on the images of all sides involved. Let's be honest, many people still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. Some people can't let things go.


This is something well-meaning but naive suburban white girls like myself need to remember. I did not live through the civil rights movement and have no way of truly understanding the angst generated by the history of enslavement, oppression, and denigration. There is no doubt that individuals who are encumbered with racial, ethnic, and/or socio-economic class have a more difficult path than those of us who are more fortunate in birth.

That said, I have had the joy of talking with several African-Americans who have defied the odds and are actively working to improve their lives through education. They have chosen to make a better future for themselves, even though it means giving up part of the culture they grew up with. They believe their condition in life is a choice -- a hard one, but still a choice.

The question in my mind, though, is what can we as a society do to make the choice easier without creating a state of entitlement and dependency?


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## entperson (Sep 14, 2009)

ChanceyRose said:


> The question in my mind, though, is what can we as a society do to make the choice easier without creating a state of entitlement and dependency?


There is no doubt in my mind the key factor in this is top notch public education. Having been born and raised in New Orleans I have witnessed the amazing changes we've made in just 5 years since the entire public school system overhaul. All we did was set up each school as its own entity with its own school board rather than one board governing all of the schools in the district, graduation rates and test scores have improved drastically. In the next decade the results should be great.

Of course there are several other factors here, but I believe education is the first and most important step to breaking this "anti-intellectualism" cycle.


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## Andrewfromthebay (Sep 10, 2010)

wafflecake said:


> As an "African-american" (I hate using that term, but that's too long to go into now), I have always noticed the rampant disdain, no, _hate_ of independent thought and intellectual pursuits. Personally, I have been rebuked on numerous occasions for my offenses such as: playing tennis (" that's a white sport"), renouncing organized religion, and most laughably, for speaking and using proper English (talking "white"; I'm sorry, but "axe" != "ask"). Growing up this was a huge blow to my self-esteem, but now I see it for what it is: anti-intellectualism in the black community.
> 
> My girlfriend and I had a long talk on the subject, ranging from how I couldn't take hip-hop as a genre seriously until I was 13 (when I found artists that really were masters of the art form and who rapped about things that mattered), to how "we" are doing little to change the popular perception of the race (see: Tyler Perry's œuvre; we actually discussed the possibility that maybe he is fully aware of his movie's effect, and, with the money that consumers/TBS throw at him, that he is laughing his way to the bank), and how if black America hadn't been so easily swayed by race, Obama might not be in office (not anything against him; I have no opinion yet on his tenure as the head-of-state).
> 
> Anyone else notice this, or am I way off the mark?


WOW, thank you so much for speaking up. I am a white man, and I have been in a relationship with a black woman for 3 years. She is the LOVE of my life, and she has experienced a backlash like you wouldn't believe from the "black community" (hate saying that word like you hate saying 'african american'). Where do I begin....there's almost too much to say. Here it goes...

My girlfriend was ostracized from her family growing up for "talking white", listening to rock music, and taking an interest in school. Friends and family would tease her and put her down and say she was trying to act white. She actually has nothing to do with her family now because they are so ignorant and hateful. She is an indivudual who thinks for herself, and it is so upsetting to hear and see how other Blacks treat her. We are both conservative republicans, and we both voted for Mccain. She gave a speech in her college class about being a conservative and how the welfare state has created a culture of dependance in the black community. In the middle of class, a black woman stood up and yelled at her. After class, as my girlfriend was walking to her next class, a group of black women made fun of her and said she was trying to be white. 

We have been heckled walking down the street in nearby cities by black men who say "go back to black!". We can't go into certain neighborhoods now that have high population of low income blacks because we are so afraid of getting harassed for being in an interracial relationship. 

Personally, I wish this country would get past race and achieve the colorblind society that MLK dreamed of. Race is such a primitive idea and the whole concept needs to be done away with. It seems as if the civil rights movement was highjacked by payback racists like Sharpton and Jackson. There is such a large groupthink mentality among black Americans found little where else in the world. There are black student unions, churches, clubs, congressional caucuses, BET, etc. all because of white guilt and individuals who are too afraid to stand up and call them what they are: racially seperatist. These clubs do not unite the races, they divide them. We are all of one race: the human race. Double standards in this country have created a culture where blacks can "bond together" and have their own culture, while their mentaity is inherently racist. The idea that people are the same because of skin color is the same argument used by slaveholders, and it is a twisted irony how so many black americans still hold on to that primitive idea. No one can change America's past of racism and slavery, but the solution is not to have blacks practice payback racism and racial seperatism. Back to my girlfriend:

Recently, my girlfriend and I were watching ABC's nightline. A panel of black americans and a black audience were talking about the epidemic of single women in the black community. One woman on stage said that "the whites are stealing our men away". The audience of hundreds rose up and cheered. It made my girlfriend and I sick. If this was a white crowd and a white group of people on stage, it would be denounced as a racially supremacist and seperatist orginization. There is no such thing as reverse racism. Racism IS racism. There is a large amount of it coming from Black Americans, and everyone else sits around and watches it.

HERES THE WORST EXAMPLE THOUGH: My girlfriend was coming home on the train, sitting by herself, and a young black man selling rap CD's asked if she wanted one. She politely said "no thank you". He then told her loudly for the whole train to hear "you have been hanging out with too many crackers!". A full train of people didn't say anything. In fact, a black woman called him over, not to tell him that what he said was racist and offensive, but to ask him if she could buy a CD. If this was reversed, and a white man was selling CDs of some stereotypical white music (if there is such a thing), and he went up to a black guy and he said "no thank you", and the white guy said "you have been hanging out with too many n-words" the train would have errupted, garunteed. 

I completely agree with your original post. There is a groupthink, victomologist, separatist mentality among Black americans today. 96% of Blacks voted for Obama., and 90% vote democrat every election (the party of slavery, jim crow, anti-civil rights act, and policies that focus on race). I know race played a big role in the election for blacks, which is very sad. What's worse is how blacks treat other blacks who think on there own and don't kowtow to stereotypical black culture. This is in my opinon, one of America's biggest tragedies. MLK is spinning in his grave. I could go on and on and on, but I will stop, I think you get the picture. Again, thank you so much for being an individual and standing up for yourself. My girlfriend read your post and thought it was great, as did I. You are certainly not alone my friend.


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## st0831 (Jul 13, 2010)

Andrewfromthebay said:


> WOW, thank you so much for speaking up. I am a white man, and I have been in a relationship with a black woman for 3 years. She is the LOVE of my life, and she has experienced a backlash like you wouldn't believe from the "black community" (hate saying that word like you hate saying 'african american'). Where do I begin....there's almost too much to say. Here it goes...
> 
> My girlfriend was ostracized from her family growing up for "talking white", listening to rock music, and taking an interest in school. Friends and family would tease her and put her down and say she was trying to act white. She actually has nothing to do with her family now because they are so ignorant and hateful. She is an indivudual who thinks for herself, and it is so upsetting to hear and see how other Blacks treat her. We are both conservative republicans, and we both voted for Mccain. She gave a speech in her college class about being a conservative and how the welfare state has created a culture of dependance in the black community. In the middle of class, a black woman stood up and yelled at her. After class, as my girlfriend was walking to her next class, a group of black women made fun of her and said she was trying to be white.
> 
> ...


I am a minority and I acknowledge "reverse racism". The use of the term reverse racism is redundant because any type of "stereotyping by race" is already racism, which includes black on white or white on black. 

There are individual thinkers out there. I'm glad you're not jaded over the CD event. Stay human.


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

I ultimately am afraid of being called the "R" word; however, you make some very good points. A black woman at my old office once proclaimed, "I don't know how to read them circle clocks," to one of her black cohorts who consoled her and told her it wasn't that big of an issue, and while I know it's insensitive of me, I definitely was thinking, "Probably an affirmative action hire right there."

I for the life of me cannot understand how a culture (African Americans) can eschew the betterment of themselves just in the name of some racial pride. If blacks --forgive me if off base here-- don't want to climb up what they perceive to be a 'white system' with a 'white language' because it would make them uncle toms then why would they rather live in the ghettos dealing drugs finding themselves in the 'white man's' jail? It doesn't make much sense to me. Why can't you be proud of your race while succeeding? The two are not mutually exclusive to one another. If the problem is that it's a 'white system' then get in there and influence it. If there were more blacks in the office I _know_ I'd wind up adopting some ebonics phrases and it would be absolutely hilarious because I am just so horribly and awfully white, I'm like translucent, that's how white I am.

Sorry if my post is offensive to anyone. I did make some racial assumptions in posting that could be deemed obtuse and offensive. But I assure you I know that race doesn't necessarily confine someone to one specific fate/culture/personality and meant no offense.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

The cold reality is that white people don't want black people amongst them.
They want black people who have adopted white values and ways.
Views, Habits, Styles, Ways of speaking and carrying oneself that is acceptable in the black community are automatically deemed as bad.
In order to accept mainstream white culture one has to abandon their own culture and that goes for any minority whether typological or having to do with skin color.

In order to fit in with one group you have to sell-out the other.

That's a fact.


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> The cold reality is that white people don't want black people amongst them.
> They want black people who have adopted white values and ways.
> Views, Habits, Styles, Ways of speaking and carrying oneself that is acceptable in the black community are automatically deemed as bad.
> In order to accept mainstream white culture one has to abandon their own culture and that goes for any minority whether typological or having to do with skin color.
> ...


Hadn't thought about it like that before.. However, look at people brought over from India to program computers, do they stick around the impoverished neighborhoods of India out of a sense of pride? I still think you can dress business professional and also adorn your own unique pieces of flare. I imagine the people from India don't suddenly switch to Christianity once they come here.


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> The cold reality is that white people don't want black people amongst them.
> They want black people who have adopted white values and ways.
> Views, Habits, Styles, Ways of speaking and carrying oneself that is acceptable in the black community are automatically deemed as bad.
> In order to accept mainstream white culture one has to abandon their own culture and that goes for any minority whether typological or having to do with skin color.
> ...


Someone had to say the truth.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

Trainwreck said:


> Hadn't thought about it like that before.. However, look at people brought over from India to program computers, do they stick around the impoverished neighborhoods of India out of a sense of pride? I still think you can dress business professional and also adorn your own unique pieces of flare. I imagine the people from India don't suddenly switch to Christianity once they come here.


You have no idea about what those people do India, I can guarantee you that those people are ostracized by some section of their own culture. You will also notice that most Indians stick together, they do not mix.
Living amongst two worlds is a walk on a cultural tightrope, most often people at the crossroads of two cultures end up belonging to neither.

That's a paraphrasing of Obama by the way. There's an ENTJ somewhere on this forum with a Obama picture where he's photo-shopped as white.
This illustrates the idea of culture and race being conflated by people. The message is clear you can't have a black president he's really white inside.
I would love to believe it's just ignorance, but I know better. It's human nature. 

If you want it spelled out in an academic sense you might want to read a book called "The Human Zoo"


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> You have no idea about what those people do India, I can guarantee you that those people are ostracized by some section of their own culture. You will also notice that most Indians stick together, they do not mix.
> Living amongst two worlds is a walk on a cultural tightrope, most often people at the crossroads of two cultures end up belonging to neither.
> 
> That's a paraphrasing of Obama by the way. There's an ENTJ somewhere on this forum with a Obama picture where he's photo-shopped as white.
> ...


So if becoming successful boils down to being white then it's just a white mans world and you can either be white (not necessarily in skin color) or fail??? Something about that just doesn't sit right with me. What would be proposed then? Make it a black man's world so all the white people have to betray their white identity to succeed? Or should we just give all the black people their own state and we can commerce with them as though they were a foreign entity that way blacks within the black state can be successful in a black society without betraying their own black-ness?? But doesn't a black state and a white state sound horribly un-progressive???

Is it just the nature of the beast?? 

Thoughts?


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

Trainwreck said:


> So if becoming successful boils down to being white then it's just a white mans world and you can either be white (not necessarily in skin color) or fail???


Within the system. If you wish to exist within the system your success is highly defendant on your ability to ingratiate yourself to enough people to ensure you can move up within the system.
The other option is to have businesses within your own culture. Hence the emphasis in the black community of supporting "black" businesses. The clueless interpret it as racism when it is no such thing. 



> Something about that just doesn't sit right with me.


I would hope not it's a shitty situation.



> What would be proposed then? Make it a black man's world so all the white people have to betray their white identity to succeed?


No, that's the status quo. Blacks best bet is to form their own businesses serving their own people with the blessing (not financial support) of the system. It sounds racist if you don't see the social need for it.



> Or should we just give all the black people their own state and we can commerce with them as though they were a foreign entity that way blacks within the black state can be successful in a black society without betraying their own black-ness?? But doesn't a black state and a white state sound horribly un-progressive???


Well we have 50 states already and each state has it's own laws that exist to serve that that within the context of the nature of the lives of the people whom live in the state.
Different states have different ways of thinking because of the types of people most likely to inhabit them.
The beauty of this is that if you are in a state that does not match your values you can simply move.
It is a fairly obvious and elegant system but even then human nature intervenes as people from one state makes fun of people from another state.



> Is it just the nature of the beast??


Yes.


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## Trainwreck (Sep 14, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> Well we have 50 states already and each state has it's own laws that exist to serve that that within the context of the nature of the lives of the people whom live in the state.
> Different states have different ways of thinking because of the types of people most likely to inhabit them.
> The beauty of this is that if you are in a state that does not match your values you can simply move.
> It is a fairly obvious and elegant system but even then human nature intervenes as people from one state makes fun of people from another state.


I agree with this 100% which is why I hate what our enormous federal government has grown into. 

Ultimately what I've gathered from your musings is that it's ultimately going to be about nurturing a sense of pride within the community, and if the community is drawn on racial boundaries it will obviously lead to racial divides and I don't see anything wrong with that. But I think what TS was complaining about was receiving ire for not being a member of a specific community simply because of the color of his skin which I think could be taken as an odd form of racism. I have no problem with people wanting their own communities and whatnot. If people want to divide on racial lines _on their own_ because they're happier that way I say by all means feel free to do so. Just don't berate those who branch out. And I know my white friends for sure would rag on me if I joined a different racial community and I also know a lot of people have thrown the term "******" at a white person in the ghetto. Yeah, I really go nothin' left though.. A nice INTP trail-off to an overwrought discursive piece of verbiage


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## wafflecake (Aug 30, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> The cold reality is that white people don't want black people amongst them.
> They want black people who have adopted white values and ways.
> Views, Habits, Styles, Ways of speaking and carrying oneself that is acceptable in the black community are automatically deemed as bad.
> In order to accept mainstream white culture one has to abandon their own culture and that goes for any minority whether typological or having to do with skin color.
> ...


And of course this is compounded when you are of both races.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

wafflecake said:


> And of course this is compounded when you are of both races.


You are twice screwed.
Multi-Racial ( A minority attempting to bridge two cultures)
INTP( The most intellectual of the types and thus the most confused)

Your mother was right, you will be judged and misunderstood whether you're self aware enough or not to know that is the question. Once you wake up to this unpleasant fact you will be better able to deal with it.
Until then you're always going to feel like a victim.
Man Up.


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## wafflecake (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't feel like a victim; I just wish "my people" so to speak would think for themselves.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

wafflecake said:


> I don't feel like a victim; I just wish "my people" so to speak would think for themselves.


Stop being derogatory of "your people" do you honestly believe white people think for themselves?
People are people, they can only be judged within the context of their existence.
Which is to say they all suck, humanity is a big pile of dog doo-doo with one or two kernels of decent corn.
Get your head right, you get nothing by being condescending towards your people when in reality you have little grasp of people on a whole.


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## Dawnchild (May 21, 2010)

ENTrePenuer said:


> Stop being derogatory of "your people" do you honestly believe white people think for themselves?


It is precisely because people aren't prone to think by themselves that the community mentality is so important. Black people need as, any regular person, to look for a "better" life and to stay away from what causes arm.
If white people act right then doing the contrary for the sake of the community is a mistake.


> People are people, they can only be judged within the context of their existence.


And the choices they make. Individual responsability is also important.


> Get your head right, you get nothing by being condescending towards your people when in reality you have little grasp of people on a whole.


I think you'got a problem with people criticising black communities.


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## Gaminegirlie (Jul 31, 2010)

Dawnchild said:


> It is precisely because people aren't prone to think by themselves that the community mentality is so important. Black people need as, any regular person, to look for a "better" life and to stay away from what causes arm.
> If white people act right then doing the contrary for the sake of the community is a mistake.
> 
> And the choices they make. Individual responsability is also important.
> ...


You don't even understand a pip of what he wrote. How can you make comments.


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## ENTrePenuer (Jun 12, 2010)

Dawnchild said:


> It is precisely because people aren't prone to think by themselves that the community mentality is so important. Black people need as, any regular person, to look for a "better" life and to stay away from what causes arm.
> If white people act right then doing the contrary for the sake of the community is a mistake.
> 
> And the choices they make. Individual responsability is also important.
> ...


I think you're an idiot so it works out.


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