# Do some people require meat?



## Grandmaster Yoda

Just eat meat, no one cares. Trust us.


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## Carpentet810

Clyme said:


> Fair enough. What does meat provide you with that you cannot get from other sources?
> 
> 
> 
> So? There's no causal link. Correlation, sure, but no causality.
> 
> Edit: Bear in mind that I did not thoroughly read the study as of yet, but I will later when I have time. I just wanted to address that causality factor because many erroneously believe that vegetarian or vegan diets cause mental illness.


Who said anything about causing??? The report indicates people with mental illness tend to lean more toward vegan menus.


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## Carpentet810

Hilarious story! Anyhow this dude I know joined the USMC and at chow hall he asks his senior for Vegetarian menu...The senior makes him get up on the table in front of everyone and ask for the vegetarian menu!!! 

He then takes him over to the Sergeant's chow line, and piles 6 steaks on it sits him down then makes him eat everything on the plate but the bones!!!

Last time I talked to him he still hadn't gone back to veganism 7 years after leaving the Corp.


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## Red Panda

95134hks said:


> Are you going to read the article or are you going to stay in your crumbling ivory veggie tower ??
> 
> Protein Deficiency: The Hidden Signs | John Douillard's LifeSpa


I did, and he says exactly what I said.
I'm not vegetarian (yet), but I am a dietitian.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

Red Panda said:


> 1 cup of soybeans has more choline than an egg.


That's a cup of soybeans vs. a 20g of egg yolk. Soy comes with phytic acid.



Red Panda said:


> Other plant foods like quinoa, wheat, broccoli, cauliflower, black beans also have considerable amounts. And choline isn't even an essential nutrient. Also, vegetarians eat eggs (typically).


If you count enough for not dropping dead as essential.

For mental health, it's another story. Eating yolks was proven to relieve anxiety without side effects.


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## Clyme

95134hks said:


> Protein Deficiency: The Hidden Signs | John Douillard's LifeSpa
> 
> Apparently NOT.


Your article does not contradict the idea that a vegan diet can sufficiently meet one's protein needs, and even so, modern studies of nutrition show that vegan diets can be perfectly nutritious.



95134hks said:


> He is going to need steak AND eggs.


Both of those are extremely high in saturated fats and cholesterol, both of which will significantly increase the risk of cardiovascular diseases. Furthermore, when eating meats, it can be easy to go overboard with protein. Getting too much protein can end up sapping your calcium and weakening your bones. Furthermore, while meats are high in some nutrients, they aren't particularly nutrient-dense. A healthy diet is one that is varied and balanced, with much more emphasis on vegetables, whole grains, fruits, and so on.



Carpentet810 said:


> Who said anything about causing??? The report indicates people with mental illness tend to lean more toward vegan menus.


Nobody, but I've heard people frequently push that position. Anyway, what difference does that make and why is that relevant at all to the fact that meat and other animal products are unnecessary for nutrition?


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## Red Panda

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> That's a cup of soybeans vs. a 20g of egg yolk. Soy comes with phytic acid.
> 
> 
> If you count enough for not dropping dead as essential.
> 
> For mental health, it's another story. Eating yolks was proven to relieve anxiety without side effects.


It doesn't matter, because a good vegetarian will eat plenty of soy, other beans, other choline-rich plants _and_ eggs. Phytic acid is not as harmful as paleos like to say, as eating legumes and beans has only been found beneficial in population and food-model studies (i.e. Mediterranean diet).
Essential nutrient is a scientific term for a nutrient that cannot be synthesized by our bodies and we absolutely have to take it from our food. Choline is not essential.


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## 95134hks

Clyme said:


> Your article does not contradict the idea that a vegan diet can sufficiently meet one's protein needs, and even so, modern studies of nutrition show that vegan diets can be perfectly nutritious.
> 
> 
> 
> Both of those are extremely high in saturated fats and cholesterol, both of which will significantly increase the risk of cardiovascular diseases. Furthermore, when eating meats, it can be easy to go overboard with protein. Getting too much protein can end up sapping your calcium and weakening your bones. Furthermore, while meats are high in some nutrients, they aren't particularly nutrient-dense. A healthy diet is one that is varied and balanced, with much more emphasis on vegetables, whole grains, fruits, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody, but I've heard people frequently push that position. Anyway, what difference does that make and why is that relevant at all to the fact that meat and other animal products are unnecessary for nutrition?


It's not my article.

It is John Douillard's article.

I am not John Douilland.

The article makes perfect sense to me.

Are you trying to debunk the article?

If so then please cite your expert credentials first.


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## 95134hks

Red Panda said:


> It doesn't matter, because a good vegetarian will eat plenty of soy, other beans, other choline-rich plants _and_ eggs. Phytic acid is not as harmful as paleos like to say, as eating legumes and beans has only been found beneficial in population and food-model studies (i.e. Mediterranean diet).
> Essential nutrient is a scientific term for a nutrient that cannot be synthesized by our bodies and we absolutely have to take it from our food. Choline is not essential.


Apparently not.


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## 95134hks

Red Panda said:


> I did, and he says exactly what I said.
> I'm not vegetarian (yet), but I am a dietitian.


It sounds like the O/P has given himself protein deficiency syndrome.

The article homes-in on his symptoms.

So the O/P needs to give up the food fad for now until the symptoms go away.


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## 95134hks

Carpentet810 said:


> Hilarious story! Anyhow this dude I know joined the USMC and at chow hall he asks his senior for Vegetarian menu...The senior makes him get up on the table in front of everyone and ask for the vegetarian menu!!!
> 
> He then takes him over to the Sergeant's chow line, and piles 6 steaks on it sits him down then makes him eat everything on the plate but the bones!!!
> 
> Last time I talked to him he still hadn't gone back to veganism 7 years after leaving the Corp.


Morons like that who need a special diet do not belong in the American armed forces.


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## Red Panda

95134hks said:


> It sounds like the O/P has given himself protein deficiency syndrome.
> 
> The article homes-in on his symptoms.
> 
> So the O/P needs to give up the food fad for now until the symptoms go away.


The article you posted gives advice to people who want to maintain their vegetarian diet and not be protein deficient. So I don't see how he has to give up his "food fad".


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## Clyme

95134hks said:


> It's not my article.
> 
> It is John Douillard's article.
> 
> I am not John Douilland.
> 
> The article makes perfect sense to me.
> 
> Are you trying to debunk the article?
> 
> If so then please cite your expert credentials first.


When I said, "your article," I meant the article that you provided. Did you even read the article? It doesn't state that meat is necessary for protein, as you seem to think it does. There's nothing to debunk, because it doesn't claim what you think it claims. Secondly, I've already cited the Dietitians of Canada as my source, which is a professional and academic organization dedicated to providing information about nutrition from scientific studies and research.


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## 95134hks

Red Panda said:


> The article you posted gives advice to people who want to maintain their vegetarian diet and not be protein deficient. So I don't see how he has to give up his "food fad".


The author concludes with:

"As you can see, your protein levels can really make a difference in how you feel, especially throughout the winter. Whatever your diet of choice, I hope you continue to stay balanced and use these tips to help find what works for you. And remember, your feedback is always valued!"

Looks like it is time for a steak to me.

If that's not also obvious to you then I would say you have some prognostication issues.

Food fads are fine but they have major limitations.

Shortages of proteins, electrolytes, salts, and vitamins are the major risks of various food fads.

This O/P needs to rectify his problem which has resulted from his food fad.


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## 95134hks

Clyme said:


> When I said, "your article," I meant the article that you provided. Did you even read the article? It doesn't state that meat is necessary for protein, as you seem to think it does. There's nothing to debunk, because it doesn't claim what you think it claims. Secondly, I've already cited the Dietitians of Canada as my source, which is a professional and academic organization dedicated to providing information about nutrition from scientific studies and research.


You have committed too many rhetorical offenses.

You are a budding sophist.

This is all probably due to your mom lying to you while she tried to get you to clean up your room.

Goodbye.


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## Clyme

95134hks said:


> The author concludes with:
> 
> "As you can see, your protein levels can really make a difference in how you feel, especially throughout the winter. Whatever your diet of choice, I hope you continue to stay balanced and use these tips to help find what works for you. And remember, your feedback is always valued!"


Right. Where does it say that meat must be the protein source?


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## Clyme

95134hks said:


> You have committed too many rhetorical offenses.
> 
> You are a budding sophist.
> 
> This is all probably due to your mom lying to you while she tried to get you to clean up your room.
> 
> Goodbye.


Your tone suggests that you are taking offense by what I'm saying. Rather than addressing the evidence or my position, you seem to be resorting to ad hominems. Whatever it is you mean by "rhetorical offenses" is not immediately clear. If I am incorrect in my position, then I'm definitely open to this, and I'd encourage you to present evidence to me that will lead me to a more correct understanding. Thus far, however, you have presented evidence that contradicts the position you are trying to present. I'm unsure as to why you are so unsettled by this conversation.


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## Red Panda

95134hks said:


> The author concludes with:
> 
> "As you can see, your protein levels can really make a difference in how you feel, especially throughout the winter. Whatever your diet of choice, I hope you continue to stay balanced and use these tips to help find what works for you. And remember, your feedback is always valued!"
> 
> Looks like it is time for a steak to me.
> 
> If that's not also obvious to you then I would say you have some prognostication issues.
> 
> Food fads are fine but they have major limitations.
> 
> Shortages of proteins, electrolytes, salts, and vitamins are the major risks of various food fads.
> 
> This O/P needs to rectify his problem which has resulted from his food fad.


The same article says multiple times that it's not necessary for that protein to come from meat. 

"I often say that to be a good vegetarian you need to cook at least two hours a day. That’s not to propose a strict numbers rule, simply to emphasize that being a healthy vegetarian takes extra work. And when we consider our current lifestyles, it’s not surprising that many of us don’t actually end up putting in that extra work and our health suffers for it."
[...]

2. If eating meat is not an option for you, try the following:

Have 3 whey, pea, rice, or hemp protein powder shakes a day; one with each meal for a total of 75g of extra protein per day.
This is in addition to your regular balanced diet.
Eat off the winter grocery list and emphasize the vegetarian proteins and fats listed."


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

Red Panda said:


> Essential nutrient is a scientific term for a nutrient that cannot be synthesized by our bodies and we absolutely have to take it from our food. Choline is not essential.


So, what it gets synthetised from so that one wouldn't get anxiety?


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## Red Panda

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> So, what it gets synthetised from so that one wouldn't get anxiety?


Choline is synthesized from methionine and folate. Methionine is an essential amino acid found easily in meat, eggs, dairy and beans and folate is an essential vitamin found mainly in beans and green vegetables. Folate was also added to breakfast cereals many years ago, to address low folate levels in the population in USA, if I remember correctly. 

Where did you read that egg yolks are proven to reduce anxiety?


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

Red Panda said:


> Where did you read that egg yolks are proven to reduce anxiety?


In a paper in Polish.

Anyway, anti-anxiety role of choline is well documented and egg yolks contain lots of it.

I eat about 10 egg yolks a day and it helps a lot with my anxiety. Used to eat 4-6 egg yolks a day before but it wasn't enough.


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## BroNerd

MeteorShadow said:


> Well, I eat mostly vegetarian, but I've noticed this odd thing where if I eat meat, I get this surge of energy, where as generally I struggle with fatigue on a fairly regular basis; but when I eat meat at times it's like, damn! I get this surge of energy and oomph or something.
> 
> It doesn't always seem to be effective with all brands or sources of meat, so I am not really sure. It's kind of a hit-miss thing, but seemingly more consistent with meat...(I think?)
> 
> Other sources of protein help, but they don't seem to as much. I spoke to one dietitian who claimed it didn't make a difference, but they were older, and seemed to just have kind of run-of the mill opinions that weren't that in depth.


I dont think anyone needs to eat meat since there are other sources of protein out there - however, the majority of people definitely benefit from doing so..myself included.


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## Red Panda

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> In a paper in Polish.
> 
> Anyway, anti-anxiety role of choline is well documented and egg yolks contain lots of it.
> 
> I eat about 10 egg yolks a day and it helps a lot with my anxiety. Used to eat 4-6 egg yolks a day before but it wasn't enough.


I don't know if that is safe. No one really does, but there are studies that have found correlations with increased egg consumption (>7 per week) and cardiovascular incidents. It may be better if you just take a supplement. Even if the role of eggs has been reduced compared to the past with the recent studies, I don't think they included such high intake.


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> I don't know if that is safe. No one really does, but there are studies that have found correlations with increased egg consumption (>7 per week) and cardiovascular incidents. It may be better if you just take a supplement. Even if the role of eggs has been reduced compared to the past with the recent studies, I don't think they included such high intake.


The real culprit for heart disease is inflammation. I bet the people eating that many eggs were frying them in vegetable oil (highly inflammatory) and eating other inflammatory foods.


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## 95134hks

Food fads are fun until they make you sick.


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## Clyme

PowerShell said:


> The real culprit for heart disease is inflammation. I bet the people eating that many eggs were frying them in vegetable oil (highly inflammatory) and eating other inflammatory foods.


Eggs contain tons of cholesterol. Cholesterol leads to an increase in low-density lipoproteins (LDLs) in the blood, and these LDLs are what accumulate as plaque in the arteries. As plaque builds, it increases blood pressure. High blood pressure leads to atherosclerosis. If a passage is blocked off by plaque, it can cause a heart attack or a stroke.


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## Clyme

95134hks said:


> Food fads are fun until they make you sick.


I do not intend this as an insulting question. Very sincerely: do you care what's true?

I'd like to have a genuine discussion about nutrition with you, but I cannot engage in such a discussion if there is no respect, nor concern for evidence. If you care about what's true, I'd encourage you to be open-minded and approach this conversation with sincerity.


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## aef8234

And then it became about vegans.


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## aef8234

Fumetsu said:


> Steak was my favorite until I discovered salmon sashimi.
> 
> O-toro is great too. (fatty tuna) Wont eat white-fish Sashimi/sushi. Never.


I eat whatever tastes good, I've been fine so far.
Then again I fucking hate fast food, most of the time.
Greasy shit clogs my throat.


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## Fumetsu

aef8234 said:


> I eat whatever tastes good, I've been fine so far.
> Then again I fucking hate fast food, most of the time.
> Greasy shit clogs my throat.


Never liked fast food. Never liked sugar either.
My Mother used to bitch that my tastes were "pretentious" for a child, that I wouldn't eat anything that could just be microwaved or heated.

I'm also the only one in my family who is yet to get the 'betis or a single cavity

I agree about the grease- epecially when it gets cold. It just..sits there congealing. Ew.


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## ShadowsRunner

Well, I try to eat protein everyday (except for lately cuz I have been lazy-ish) 

So plenty of chickpeas, beans, lentils eggs. Sometimes nuts and bananas etc

Oddly enough though, I noticed a difference between canned beans and non-canned beans. The non canned beans gave me a shit ton of energy, so maybe I will try eating them again. 
I was told there was no real difference except for sodium content, but perhaps they are more processed then is realized.


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## PowerShell

Clyme said:


> Eggs contain tons of cholesterol. Cholesterol leads to an increase in low-density lipoproteins (LDLs) in the blood, and these LDLs are what accumulate as plaque in the arteries. As plaque builds, it increases blood pressure. High blood pressure leads to atherosclerosis. If a passage is blocked off by plaque, it can cause a heart attack or a stroke.


It only collects if there's damaged arteries for it to collect on. Otherwise it flows freely through the arteries.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

Red Panda said:


> I don't know if that is safe. No one really does, but there are studies that have found correlations with increased egg consumption (>7 per week) and cardiovascular incidents. It may be better if you just take a supplement. Even if the role of eggs has been reduced compared to the past with the recent studies, I don't think they included such high intake.


Dr. Kwaśniewski's Optimal Diet includes heavy consumption of egg yolks - minimum 4-5 daily. It was clinically tested and the conclusion was that it doesn't cause cardiovascular issues.
It was also used for long time for curing atherosclerosis.

Atherosclerosis when consuming eggs is caused by consuming eggs together with significant amounts of carbohydrates, especially simple carbohydrates. With high quality fats from eggs available, carbohydrates aren't "burned" as fuel but transformed into fat and cholesterol in a way that causes atherosclerosis.


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## ShadowsRunner

Red Panda said:


> I don't know if that is safe. No one really does, but there are studies that have found correlations with increased egg consumption (>7 per week) and cardiovascular incidents. It may be better if you just take a supplement. Even if the role of eggs has been reduced compared to the past with the recent studies, I don't think they included such high intake.


I take the yolks out :shocked:


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## Clyme

PowerShell said:


> It only collects if there's damaged arteries for it to collect on. Otherwise it flows freely through the arteries.


Can you cite evidence to support that claim?


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## PowerShell

Clyme said:


> Can you cite evidence to support that claim?


Heart surgeon speaks out on what really causes heart disease -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net

Additionally, heart disease runs in my dad's side of the family. Everything checked out fine with my dad in terms of cholesterol, yet he still had a heart attack at 50. The doctor said that it's really half and half with people having high cholesterol. In the case of my dad, his cholesterol was considered normal and in good levels, but his predisposition to heart disease (basically my theory is the threshold for what causes inflammation is lower for people with a predisposition of heart disease).

Basically the body, especially brain, needs cholesterol. My grandpa also had heart disease and really was a marvel of modern medicine to survive 5 heart attacks. They gave him statins and his memory really started to go. My dad also takes statins but obviously being in his 50's his memory is still good.

Now we are told high fat and cholesterol cause heart disease. Well what about the Eskimo's that eat that all the time? You would think they'd be tipping over left and right. The Inuit Paradox – High Protein & Fat, No Fruits/Vegetables and yet Lower Heart Disease and Cancer : The IF Life

It wasn't until the modern Western diet which is high in inflammatory grains came about that they started experiencing issues. They have been studying this for almost a century: Stefansson 2 - Eskimos Prove An All Meat Diet Provides Excellent Health.

Plain and simple, our bodies are still that of hunter gatherers. Modern agriculture has existed for 10,000 years but the modern human genome traces back over a million years. While we are very flexible in what we eat, our ideal diet is meat and whatever foods were typically gathered.


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## Clyme

PowerShell said:


> Heart surgeon speaks out on what really causes heart disease -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net
> 
> Additionally, heart disease runs in my dad's side of the family. Everything checked out fine with my dad in terms of cholesterol, yet he still had a heart attack at 50. The doctor said that it's really half and half with people having high cholesterol. In the case of my dad, his cholesterol was considered normal and in good levels, but his predisposition to heart disease (basically my theory is the threshold for what causes inflammation is lower for people with a predisposition of heart disease).
> 
> Basically the body, especially brain, needs cholesterol. My grandpa also had heart disease and really was a marvel of modern medicine to survive 5 heart attacks. They gave him statins and his memory really started to go. My dad also takes statins but obviously being in his 50's his memory is still good.
> 
> Now we are told high fat and cholesterol cause heart disease. Well what about the Eskimo's that eat that all the time? You would think they'd be tipping over left and right. The Inuit Paradox – High Protein & Fat, No Fruits/Vegetables and yet Lower Heart Disease and Cancer : The IF Life
> 
> It wasn't until the modern Western diet which is high in inflammatory grains came about that they started experiencing issues. They have been studying this for almost a century: Stefansson 2 - Eskimos Prove An All Meat Diet Provides Excellent Health.
> 
> Plain and simple, our bodies are still that of hunter gatherers. Modern agriculture has existed for 10,000 years but the modern human genome traces back over a million years. While we are very flexible in what we eat, our ideal diet is meat and whatever foods were typically gathered.


I don't have the time to right at this moment, but I'll read through these sources soon (probably on my day off, on sunday). Thank you very much. If this is true, this will really alter my understanding of cholesterol.


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## PowerShell

Clyme said:


> I don't have the time to right at this moment, but I'll read through these sources soon (probably on my day off, on sunday). Thank you very much. If this is true, this will really alter my understanding of cholesterol.


There is no doubt that cholesterol is *part* of the equation when it comes to heart disease, it is not the root cause. It is responsible for clogging the arteries. The thing that is ignored is, there has to be inflammation present to damage the walls of the artery to allow it to collect in the first place,


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## Clyme

PowerShell said:


> There is no doubt that cholesterol is *part* of the equation when it comes to heart disease, it is not the root cause. It is responsible for clogging the arteries. The thing that is ignored is, there has to be inflammation present to damage the walls of the artery to allow it to collect in the first place,


To save time later, what causes the inflammation?


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## ShadowsRunner

So does that prove the "anti-gluten" theory" true?

Everything is so gluten-free now, yet I don't really ever recall there being any insignificant proof.


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## Red Panda

MeteorShadow said:


> Okay, can anyone give me a rough idea how many calories are in a bowl of just normal spaghetti or pasta and only tomatoe/pasta sauce on it?
> 
> And also, can caffeine significantly contribute to fatigue?


Roughly 600-700+, depending on how much spaghetti you are having, how much oil in the sauce and how much cheese you put on.

Caffeine withdrawal can cause fatigue and headaches for sure, depending on how much you drank and how much you reduced. If you went from 5 cups/d to 1 or 0 you would feel it more than going from 1 cup to 0.

As for the meat, I do believe you that you feel this way when you eat it, but the reason is not necessarily because you need it, but because you could be making mistakes when you aren't eating it. Maybe it's the macronutrient ratio you have the days with meat vs without that makes you feel fatigued and stuff. Meat is definitely a convenient choice in getting enough protein, calories and some micronutrients compared to a vegetarian diet, so maybe you are doing something "wrong" the days you're not eating it. Try eating 2-3 eggs one day, instead, and see how you feel.


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## Red Panda

MeteorShadow said:


> Are these ingredients safe/healthy to eat?
> 
> DURUM WHEAT SEMOLINA, TOMATO POWDER, SPINACH POWDER
> 
> It's the ingredients to my pasta...I just really worry about eating GMO's...I just can't afford all that expensive health food shit.


that seems fine


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## ShadowsRunner

Red Panda said:


> Roughly 600-700+, depending on how much spaghetti you are having, how much oil in the sauce and how much cheese you put on.
> 
> Caffeine withdrawal can cause fatigue and headaches for sure, depending on how much you drank and how much you reduced. If you went from 5 cups/d to 1 or 0 you would feel it more than going from 1 cup to 0.
> 
> As for the meat, I do believe you that you feel this way when you eat it, but the reason is not necessarily because you need it, but because you could be making mistakes when you aren't eating it. Maybe it's the macronutrient ratio you have the days with meat vs without that makes you feel fatigued and stuff. Meat is definitely a convenient choice in getting enough protein, calories and some micronutrients compared to a vegetarian diet, so maybe you are doing something "wrong" the days you're not eating it. Try eating 2-3 eggs one day, instead, and see how you feel.


Well, the problem is that...I think the eggs I've been getting having been that nutritious. Is that a possibility? I don't eat the expensive omega 3 fortified eggs...some times I have noticed a difference eating lots of eggs like that, but not always. I take the middle part out, though. Does that make a difference?


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## SuperDevastation

Clyme said:


> I had a sneaking suspicion that this was the case. Anyway, then there's no point discussing anything with you since our conversation, by your own admission, is irrational.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to break it to you, but you need vegetables and fruit in your diet whether you consume meat or not.
> 
> 
> 
> That's perfectly alright. Thanks for recognizing that.


Don't tell me what to eat, it's my life, so stay out. And I never admitted to anything being irrational, don't lie. Also if I didn't consume meat I'd starve to near death, think before you reply.


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## Red Panda

MeteorShadow said:


> Well, the problem is that...I think the eggs I've been getting having been that nutritious. Is that a possibility? I don't eat the expensive omega 3 fortified eggs...some times I have noticed a difference eating lots of eggs like that, but not always. I take the middle part out, though. Does that make a difference?


Meat doesn't have omega-3s anyway so it wouldn't make a difference in that case. The yolk has the most nutrients, the white is mostly protein. You can have 1-2 yolks for sure every day.


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## ShadowsRunner

Red Panda said:


> Meat doesn't have omega-3s anyway so it wouldn't make a difference in that case. The yolk has the most nutrients, the white is mostly protein. You can have 1-2 yolks for sure every day.


Ha, that's weird. I really start to notice after the 2nd egg yolk a sort of heaviness in my chest. Kind of a scary thing.

Erm....This is all soo overwhelming. My gosh. 

After finally having some meat again, I feel better overall. I have been sort of not quite getting as much calories as I should lately, and I ate a bunch of pasta and feel pretty good now (because I was starting to feel 'off' again) 
But now I feel groggy, and sluggish, plus kind of sore and stiff. Is that diet related as well? 

Physically, I'm still in better shape then most people I know and have better stamina and strength in that sense, but like it's hard to get myself moving because I feel sort of weighed down. The sluggish-ness is the worst. That has been a re-occurring thing for quite some time.

I have been thinking mean to start doing yoga on a regular basis again, but I don't think it really helps all that much. 

I don't think it's depression...? but I wonder if it is. I'm not really "depressed" though, just sluggish. I don't think I really get depressed all that often, only very sad. The sadness I can handle, though. 
just endlessly confusing health stuff.


Can your adrenals glands stop working properly? I have relied on coffee too much in the past, and it's become sort of an issue for me.


My journey to health has been so ridiculous. Before I was _depressed, and _set out to effectively solve that; to which I made progress(alot of it was just because I was unhealthy) Eventually on the way, I suppose I ended up using coffee as a crutch way too often, and I think I've met the end of my journey with it.

*sigh*


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## Red Panda

MeteorShadow said:


> Ha, that's weird. I really start to notice after the 2nd egg yolk a sort of heaviness in my chest. Kind of a scary thing.
> 
> Erm....This is all soo overwhelming. My gosh.
> 
> After finally having some meat again, I feel better overall. I have been sort of not quite getting as much calories as I should lately, and I ate a bunch of pasta and feel pretty good now (because I was starting to feel 'off' again)
> But now I feel groggy, and sluggish, plus kind of sore and stiff. Is that diet related as well?
> 
> Physically, I'm still in better shape then most people I know and have better stamina and strength in that sense, but like it's hard to get myself moving because I feel sort of weighed down. The sluggish-ness is the worst. That has been a re-occurring thing for quite some time.
> 
> I have been thinking mean to start doing yoga on a regular basis again, but I don't think it really helps all that much.
> 
> I don't think it's depression...? but I wonder if it is. I'm not really "depressed" though, just sluggish. I don't think I really get depressed all that often, only very sad. The sadness I can handle, though.
> just endlessly confusing health stuff.
> 
> 
> Can your adrenals glands stop working properly? I have relied on coffee too much in the past, and it's become sort of an issue for me.
> 
> 
> My journey to health has been so ridiculous. Before I was _depressed, and _set out to effectively solve that; to which I made progress(alot of it was just because I was unhealthy) Eventually on the way, I suppose I ended up using coffee as a crutch way too often, and I think I've met the end of my journey with it.
> 
> *sigh*


If you are depressed you are going to feel crap regardless of what you eat. Are you perhaps a bit too much preoccupied with what you eat? Your posts here give me that impression. Heaviness on your chest from an egg seems like a psychological thing and not physical. If you are a bit afraid of eating certain foods for x,y reasons you can feel all kinds of strange sensations that come from your mind and not by the food you eat. By no means am I dismissing what you feel when I say this, so don't take it like that. I've been through such situations where I was so anxious and depressed that I felt that certain things bothered me, when they really didn't. But perhaps that's where you should focus.

Adrenal fatigue is not a proven medical condition. There is an illness that causes adrenal insufficiency but it's not that common and has different symptoms, usually. And it's definitely not related to how much coffee you drink.


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## Alpha_Orionis

I am not an expert in this, but i think that people can get a good enough portion of protein from vegeterian or vegan food. Meat is just easier to acquire.


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## XO Skeleton

Nothing puts a smile on my face more than a plate of dead animal carcass. That being said, I have an incredibly fast metabolism.


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## Hypaspist

Yeah. I get headaches when I don't eat meat. Either that or I feel like I haven't eaten. Yes, I eat like an animal.


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> Adrenal fatigue is not a proven medical condition. There is an illness that causes adrenal insufficiency but it's not that common and has different symptoms, usually. And it's definitely not related to how much coffee you drink.


Adrenal fatigue is cause by excessive chronic stress. It might not be proven in itself but it's basically burnout, which a ton of people suffer from.


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## Red Panda

PowerShell said:


> Adrenal fatigue is cause by excessive chronic stress. It might not be proven in itself but it's basically burnout, which a ton of people suffer from.


Like I said, adrenal fatigue is not a proven illness. Stress can cause fatigue but not because your adrenal glands are not working properly, or else we would know because it would show up in blood work.


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## Aya the Abysswalker

I would say that people who lack iron in their blood would require red meat at least...


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> Like I said, adrenal fatigue is not a proven illness. Stress can cause fatigue but not because your adrenal glands are not working properly, or else we would know because it would show up in blood work.


Wouldn't it be like the diabetes of stress?


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## Red Panda

PowerShell said:


> Wouldn't it be like the diabetes of stress?


how so?


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> how so?


Just like having too much insulin in your body all the time wears on that system, having too much stress all the time wears on the nervous system.


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## Red Panda

PowerShell said:


> Just like having too much insulin in your body all the time wears on that system, having too much stress all the time wears on the nervous system.


yeah except if it really did we would know from blood tests (the adrenal fatigue i mean)


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## ShadowsRunner

Red Panda said:


> If you are depressed you are going to feel crap regardless of what you eat. Are you perhaps a bit too much preoccupied with what you eat? Your posts here give me that impression. Heaviness on your chest from an egg seems like a psychological thing and not physical. If you are a bit afraid of eating certain foods for x,y reasons you can feel all kinds of strange sensations that come from your mind and not by the food you eat. By no means am I dismissing what you feel when I say this, so don't take it like that. I've been through such situations where I was so anxious and depressed that I felt that certain things bothered me, when they really didn't. But perhaps that's where you should focus.
> 
> Adrenal fatigue is not a proven medical condition. There is an illness that causes adrenal insufficiency but it's not that common and has different symptoms, usually. And it's definitely not related to how much coffee you drink.


Well no, when I eat greasy food or high in cholesterol, I notice how it feels when I'm digesting it. It feels heavy and gross.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure it's not psychological. I've always been a very picky eater, and have had very very strong senses of smell and taste, etc.

I would feel nauseous from strong smells, and couldn't wear certain clothes, like those woolen sweaters..(ack)


I notice a direct correlation with how I feel, and how well I sleep. I didn't sleep very well last night because I have been sort of upset lately. I woke up today and I feel much better after sleeping quite deeply, and I did some stretches and I notice a difference. I think my body is starting to get really tense. Only, after being so fit and healthy for so long, it feels quite bad to feel my body get unhealthy. I notice a lot of strange feelings when I don't sleep well for some reason.

I went out of my way and bought really nice things for my bed, so it helps me sleep better.


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## SuperDevastation

Alpha_Orionis said:


> I am not an expert in this, but i think that people can get a good enough portion of protein from vegeterian or vegan food. Meat is just easier to acquire.


Thinking and knowing are 2 different things.


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## ShadowsRunner

Anyway, I think that a large portion of how we feel is the result of our diet and physical health in general. 

I have also noticed that for myself, caffeine seems to have a large impact on my mood for some strange reason. It's not even that mild. I just don't want to go through withdrawal right now, as it's like giving yourself the flu. I would kinda be set back for like a month probably. Ugh.

I feel sharp, angry and restless when I drink caffeine(and then after it's warn off, I feel deathly depressed and aggressively nihilistic) It's fucked up. And just so everyone knows, thanks to crony-capitalism, there are a large amount of lobbyists that exist in almost every institution and profitable market place, they will be in there pushing their products and agenda's of the highest bidder.


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## ShadowsRunner

SuperDevastation said:


> Thinking and knowing are 2 different things.


You like hi-jacked my thread, man. Terrorist thread hi-jacker. 

Osama bin threadenator. 


Edit: Wait, I guess Clyme did, too. He's like Fruitolf Vegetler.


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## 1000BugsNightSky

No one *requires* meat. However, any change in diet will have effects on your body, especially during the adjustment period. So when you eat less meat than you normally do, you're going to feel tired, just because your body functions based on the amounts of nutrients you currently eat. So for you, meat gives you energy when you eat it because it's part of your diet, even if you do eat less. (Also, meat is a source of energy, so that is why, but the question is if humans require meat).

It's similar to diets and how people recommend never to just stop eating less all of a sudden because when you eat less food, your body starts to conserve energy and lower metabolism. Then when you stop your diet, you have the potential of gaining a lot of weight because you body is running based on the lower food intake. 

Same thing with sugar. People who eat a lot of sugar feel tired when they go a period with low sugar intake and then crave sugar for energy.

Point is, you're going to feel less energy when you don't eat meat for extended times because your body is not used to it. However, after adjusting you would be able to go without meat a lot more easily. In fact, (long time) vegetarians don't have the enzymes that break down meat, so it's extremely hard to even eat meat after that because your body wouldn't be able to break it down and will feel sick. So at that point, you wouldn't even be able to eat meat if you wanted to :tongue: 
But long story short, you do not require meat to survive.


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## aef8234

PowerShell said:


> Adrenal fatigue is cause by excessive chronic stress. It might not be proven in itself but it's basically burnout, which a ton of people suffer from.


The second your adrenal glands burn out is the second being tired is the least of your worries.
Kidney failure was one iirc.
Also no scientific backing.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fatigued-by-a-fake-disease/

In short, calling it "adrenal fatigue" has a lot of non-scientific connotations that snake oil salesmen use, so it's kinda douche-related.


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## Red Panda

aef8234 said:


> The second your adrenal glands burn out is the second being tired is the least of your worries.
> Kidney failure was one iirc.
> Also no scientific backing.
> 
> https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fatigued-by-a-fake-disease/
> 
> In short, calling it "adrenal fatigue" has a lot of non-scientific connotations that snake oil salesmen use, so it's kinda douche-related.


Yeah exactly. There is an actual illness called adrenal insufficiency (Addison's disease) and it's serious, so if this "fatigue" was real, we would know.


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## karmachameleon

People say sugar is horrible because we get "addicted" and feel tired when we're off it. But it's the same with meat, and then poeple say we need meat. ??logic?


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## Clyme

MeteorShadow said:


> Edit: Wait, I guess Clyme did, too. He's like Fruitolf Vegetler.


That's a pretty clever title. I haven't heard that one before. I hope you're not offended by my comments in this thread.


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## lemony

So I didn't read the entire thread, and I'm not sure what you are (aspiring vegetarian? flexitarian?), but you need to take a very close look at your lifestyle and what you are eating if you are experiencing fatigue as a healthy person. Get yourself a profile on cronometer and track what you eat for a week. You might not even be aware that you are not getting enough nutrients. You could also simply not be eating enough. Analyse your macros and micros after the week is over to see if you could stand to improve your diet. 

I've been vegan for 8 years now, and I was a vegetarian prior to that. I get more than enough protein every day and with a complete profile of essential amino acids at that. I honestly can not imagine you being protein deficient, especially because you still eat eggs and dairy, and you also mentioned that you eat beans and legumes... But I suppose there's a chance.


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## DemonAbyss10

lemony said:


> So I didn't read the entire thread, and I'm not sure what you are (aspiring vegetarian? flexitarian?), but you need to take a very close look at your lifestyle and what you are eating if you are experiencing fatigue as a healthy person. Get yourself a profile on cronometer and track what you eat for a week. You might not even be aware that you are not getting enough nutrients. You could also simply not be eating enough. Analyse your macros and micros after the week is over to see if you could stand to improve your diet.
> 
> I've been vegan for 8 years now, and I was a vegetarian prior to that. I get more than enough protein every day and with a complete profile of essential amino acids at that. I honestly can not imagine you being protein deficient, especially because you still eat eggs and dairy, and you also mentioned that you eat beans and legumes... But I suppose there's a chance.


A chance is still a chance. Do they do any sort of working out, or have a physical job? Protien requirements are going to be higher, same for complex carbs.

I am surprised no one asked (or maybe I didn't notice since I got way too much catching up to do with the thread) if they get tired later on, or after a while into the day. If it is early on, especially after eating, need to bring up your complex carbs a bit, elsewise bring up the protein.even proper fat intake is necessary, but much harder to spell out. Thankfully the 80's/90's/2000's all fat is bad mentality is being re-evaluated. Also not all proteins are built the same, Soy protein is pretty damn different from casein, whey and other proteins, and they themselves from eachother. (They mostly differ in how they break down and the aminos they are made up of. There is plenty of information and misinformation about all three. Misinformation is an issue with the internet in general, and all sides of the diet debate fall for it, vegan, carni, Raw food, anti-gmo, gluten free, omnivore, and any other side I am missing, they all fall for it.)

Let alone you cannot generalize nutrition. There is no "one size fits all" meal plan for health. You get cravings for a reason and 100% ignoring them (unless they are cravings brought about by boredom) is not exactly good for you. Body states, psychological states, activity level... might be missing a few other factors, but they all determine what one needs. I know my own bodily needs better than someone who tries to cram ideology down my throat (and I really do not care if people take offense). And different cravings mean different things. For example a craving for meat (organ meat in particular, which is a pretty frequent craving for me), tends to signal one of a few things: A need for Protein, Iron, Zinc, various lipid chains, B12 and maybe a few other things I am missing. Vegetable and fruit cravings function in the same way, for example, craving citrus usually means a need for vitamin c.


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## Xanthus Primus

I require one soul, every three weeks.


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## Lakigigar

*“It’s time to ask ourselves: if it is now possible to live a life that involves delicious food and drink, delivers better health, leaves a smaller carbon footprint and avoids killing other creatures – then why don’t we?”*

I eat fish occassionaly. I never eat meat, dairy products & poultry. I don't know if i want to keep eating fish. I'm not sure of it. I do it mainly for ecological reasons. It is also better for your own health.


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## PowerShell

I'm trying to eat at least 1 can of sardines, salmon, or mackerel a day.


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## lemony

DemonAbyss10 said:


> A chance is still a chance. Do they do any sort of working out, or have a physical job? Protien requirements are going to be higher, same for complex carbs.


Right, which is in agreement with what I said, no? 

I don't think the rest of your reply was directed at me, but I was always under the impression that the brain craves certain foods because it has learned to associate those foods with certain nutrients. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get those nutrients from other sources. Iron deficiency for example will sometimes symptomize by a desire to chew on ice, but that doesn't mean that that is what you should be doing. Ignoring cravings is not good, I absolutely agree, but if (for whatever reason) you've switched from a meat eating lifestyle to a meat-less lifestyle, you're going to need to give your brain some time to form new associations. 



Lakigigar said:


> *“It’s time to ask ourselves: if it is now possible to live a life that involves delicious food and drink, delivers better health, leaves a smaller carbon footprint and avoids killing other creatures – then why don’t we?”*
> 
> I eat fish occassionaly. I never eat meat, dairy products & poultry. I don't know if i want to keep eating fish. I'm not sure of it. I do it mainly for ecological reasons. It is also better for your own health.


Just do your own research and decide for yourself. Giving up fish turned up to not be as hard as I thought it would be, but that's just me.


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## Red Panda

PowerShell said:


> I'm trying to eat at least 1 can of sardines, salmon, or mackerel a day.


I'm not sure that's a great idea, especially with mackerel. It has a lot of mercury.


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## Red Panda

lemony said:


> Right, which is in agreement with what I said, no?
> 
> I don't think the rest of your reply was directed at me, but I was always under the impression that the brain craves certain foods because it has learned to associate those foods with certain nutrients. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get those nutrients from other sources. Iron deficiency for example will sometimes symptomize by a desire to chew on ice, but that doesn't mean that that is what you should be doing. Ignoring cravings is not good, I absolutely agree, but if (for whatever reason) you've switched from a meat eating lifestyle to a meat-less lifestyle, you're going to need to give your brain some time to form new associations.


Yeah, most of the cravings relating to nutrients is BS. I mean, sure sometimes, some cravings could be related to actual nutrient needs, but we can't rely on that because we simply can't know for sure if it's truly related to that. For example, chocolate cravings and depression or bad mood. Your body isn't necessarily missing any nutrient, but it needs something satisfying/pleasurable and thus it manifests as craving for chocolate. Food cravings can be related to hormonal balance and mood and not nutrient deficiencies and imo they are more powerful when it's about that, rather than a deficiency. i.e. Are food cravings the body's way of telling us that we are lacking certain nutrients? - Scientific American
Food Cravings: Why They Strike, How to Curb Them


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> I'm not sure that's a great idea, especially with mackerel. It has a lot of mercury.


Well Mackerel is on the low mercury fish list, along with Sardines Which Fish Contains the Least Amount of Mercury? | LIVESTRONG.COM


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## Red Panda

PowerShell said:


> Well Mackerel is on the low mercury fish list, along with Sardines Which Fish Contains the Least Amount of Mercury? | LIVESTRONG.COM


I'm not saying it has a high content, other fish are much worse. But still you might want to keep it in mind especially since you consume it very frequently. You can also calculate your approximate mercury intake in this site Calculate Mercury Content in Fish

I've seen videos on youtube where they measured mercury content on several fish live and all were multiple times over the "official" content. So you can never really be sure. Sardines and anchovies are safe because they are small fish and can't accumulate mercury as much as the others.


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## PowerShell

Red Panda said:


> I'm not saying it has a high content, other fish are much worse. But still you might want to keep it in mind especially since you consume it very frequently. You can also calculate your approximate mercury intake in this site Calculate Mercury Content in Fish
> 
> I've seen videos on youtube where they measured mercury content on several fish live and all were multiple times over the "official" content. So you can never really be sure. Sardines and anchovies are safe because they are small fish and can't accumulate mercury as much as the others.


I'll keep it in mind. For the most part I eat Sardines since a can of Mackerel will fill me up almost to the point of being stuff and I don't want an open can of fish sitting around. The reason I'm eating a lot of fish now is it is super high in nutrients that I need to recover from this broken leg. Plus Omega 3 is good for the heart.


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## Carpentet810




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## lemony

Red Panda said:


> Yeah, most of the cravings relating to nutrients is BS. I mean, sure sometimes, some cravings could be related to actual nutrient needs, but we can't rely on that because we simply can't know for sure if it's truly related to that. For example, chocolate cravings and depression or bad mood. Your body isn't necessarily missing any nutrient, but it needs something satisfying/pleasurable and thus it manifests as craving for chocolate. Food cravings can be related to hormonal balance and mood and not nutrient deficiencies and imo they are more powerful when it's about that, rather than a deficiency. i.e. Are food cravings the body's way of telling us that we are lacking certain nutrients? - Scientific American
> Food Cravings: Why They Strike, How to Curb Them


Oh, that's interesting - thanks for the links!


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## Yamato

yush ppl needzzz meadzzzz ^^ me in perticaly needzzz meadzzzz , eather to feedzzz me , or to have fun ;P


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## ArmchairCommie

I've been a vegetarian for practically my whole entire life and the last time I eat meat was over 8 years ago now. Considering how much protein one can get from nuts, legumes, eggs, etc I see no nutritional reason for people to require meat in their lives.


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## Aely1986

Some people prefer veggies while others don't. And of course, some people need some calories in their diet.


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## Hero of Freedom

Its very hard to quit meat though and for some reason sometimes whenever I try to eat vegetables. Especially the soft green leafy ones with steams, it feels "Gross" for some reason. Idk if its a biological reaction(Due to body adapting to a majority meat diet), psychological due to not being used to it or genetic. Meat is easier because it is bigger, more whole and solid.


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## ShadowsRunner

eating only meat? ha ha, that's kind of gross. I think the actor Michael Clark Duncan died from cancer because he ate meat all of the time. I believe predominately red meat, and steak, sausages.


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## Red Panda

Dawn of the Light said:


> Its very hard to quit meat though and for some reason sometimes whenever I try to eat vegetables. Especially the soft green leafy ones with steams, it feels "Gross" for some reason. Idk if its a biological reaction(Due to body adapting to a majority meat diet), psychological due to not being used to it or genetic. Meat is easier because it is bigger, more whole and solid.


you should be eating vegetables regardless if you eat meat, you know


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## islandlight

In answer to the original question: Yes.


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## Hexigoon

Require meat? No. The body does not require meat, we're not carnivores. If there were no animals to eat, would such humans have to turn to cannibalism if that was the case?
I can survive just fine without meat if I have other food sources because thankfully we're omnivores and so the body can digest a wider array of things.


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## TKDfan888

Clyme said:


> When I said, "your article," I meant the article that you provided. Did you even read the article? It doesn't state that meat is necessary for protein, as you seem to think it does. There's nothing to debunk, because it doesn't claim what you think it claims. Secondly, I've already cited the Dietitians of Canada as my source, which is a professional and academic organization dedicated to providing information about nutrition from scientific studies and research.


I agree with @Clyme. Many scientific organizations have stated that veganism & vegetarianism can be perfectly healthy when it is done correctly. 

Note: "correctly": means getting enough nutrients.


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## Electra

I used to be a vegetarian but I lost a lot of iron due to bleeding and I started fainting, getting cramps in my legs, got a strange fast irregular heart beat, feeling dizzy, I got problems breathing, etc. so in the end I stopped and vent back to be a non vegetarian again. I can't believe nothing is done with this issue. I dream of once becoming a vegetarian again one day. But first I need to figure out how to afford the food and get enough Iron and Protein. Tbh it is way too exspensive to just eat "normal" food here, vegetarian food is even more exspensive.


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## attic

Theoretically, I think there are very few who need it (people who can't eat beans and nuts etc, due to allergies or similar for example, have trouble accessing the nutrients in plant foods, immune reactions...). But it requires knowledge and then following what one has learnt in action, fairly consistently. Vitamin b12 needs to be added in supplements or enriched foods, there might be some things containing it, but not enough is know yet so one ought to take the vitaminpill. There is some in milk and eggs if just vegetarian, but one ought to be aware of amounts, it might not be enough. Often vitamin D is also advised if living far from the equator, and not eating fish often, during winter. One can likely eat chanterelles (a mushroom, the gold of the forest), but might be good to wait for a bit more studies on that, plus there is likely not enough if all is going to get vitamin d from them. Omega 3s are also good to be aware of, to be on the safe side, either eat algea that has epa/dha, or supplement made from them, and flax or hemp or rape for ala. There might be more nutrients that are a bit difficult to get and that we don't know about yet, like how it was not so long ago choline was discovered to be essential.

So I think almost all can live on a vegan diet in theory without problem, and I think as more is known and it is incorporated in foodcultures in a way that makes it easier, and food is enriched with what might be a bit more difficult to get etc. it will be fairly easy. I think society is moving towards that, hopefully. But right now it demands that you read up, and follow through, which not all will manage, and it is a bit of an experiment, as not that many vegans have lived from birth do old age on a vegan diet and been researched on.

I eat vegan food myself, for ethical reasons, and think it is worth the experiment for myself. I think I eat well now and get what I need. But when I first started over 20 years ago, I had bad information-sources and probably had pretty bad b12-deficiency for a while (because I thought my b12-stores would last for 2 years when becoming vegan, and they might, but they might not, having been vegetarian for three years already, I likely didn't have much in the stores to begin with). I also didn't learn about omega-3s until a few years later, and it still seems like the judge is out on if epa/dha is needed or if the body can convert enough from ala to be at one's best (I now take algea oil supplements, and try to learn to eat algea, but it is an acquired taste). So I don't think it is easy-peasy to change diet, and it is likely good to do it gradually over time and learn as you go.


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## Rainbow Iris

It’s rare, but there are some disorders that could possibly cause a person to require meat, such as an immune disorder that made a person have multiple severe food intolerances. There are some people who can only eat two or three foods without going into anaphylaxis, and when that happens, often the safest of those tolerable foods will be freshly frozen chicken meat, based on what I’ve been seeing online. (I know about this because I’ve been trying to fix my overactive immune system after covid messed it up, and I’ve been joining groups for people with similar food intolerance issues. I’m lucky I can still eat a diet consisting exclusively of plants, feel sunshine, drink water, bathe, and exercise without any serious problems, because some aren’t so fortunate.)

However, most people do not require meat, even if they have such disorders, and are significantly healthier without it. There is a non-zero chance of getting a health condition that makes you unable to eat any plants, but you most likely won’t end up in that situation. That kind of disorder is extremely rare, and most who have the kind of immune issues I mention can still eat enough plants to survive without requiring meat. Some actually lose the ability to eat meat, and can _only_ eat plants.


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