# Intra-Block Dynamics



## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Model A defines four blocks each containing two functions one of which is _accepting_ and the other _producing_. The justification for this structure is that functions must appear in pairs where one function (the producer) generates information the other (the acceptor) processes to produce whatever cognitive output it is intended to produce. Yet, there is very little exposition of these intra-block dynamics. The only one that is really discussed at all is the _lead_-_creative_ function pair in the ego block, but even here, not much is said. What about the internal dynamics of this and the other blocks? How do the _role_ and _vulnerable_ functions interact? Ditto for the _suggesting_ and _mobilizing_ pair, and the _ignoring_ and _demonstrative_ pair? If the intra-block dynamics are really not apparent or even necessary to understand the personality, then why have them in the first place--except, that is, to impose an ad hoc rule in order to make a nice and neat theory?


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Model A defines four blocks each containing two functions one of which is _accepting_ and the other _producing_. The justification for this structure is that functions must appear in pairs where one function (the producer) generates information the other (the acceptor) processes to produce whatever cognitive output it is intended to produce. Yet, there is very little exposition of these intra-block dynamics. The only one that is really discussed at all is the _lead_-_creative_ function pair in the ego block, but even here, not much is said. What about the internal dynamics of this and the other blocks? How do the _role_ and _vulnerable_ functions interact? Ditto for the _suggesting_ and _mobilizing_ pair, and the _ignoring_ and _demonstrative_ pair? If the intra-block dynamics are really not apparent or even necessary to understand the personality, then why have them in the first place--except, that is, to impose an ad hoc rule in order to make a nice and neat theory?


There are actually some intra-block dynamics based on IM element axes (Ni/Se, Si/Ne, Ti/Fe, Te/Fi), the most talked about being Lead-Suggestive and Demonstrative-Vulnerable, as well as some based on cancelling forces (Lead-Role, Creative-Vulnerable, etc).


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> There are actually some intra-block dynamics based on IM element axes (Ni/Se, Si/Ne, Ti/Fe, Te/Fi), the most talked about being* Lead-Suggestive and Demonstrative-Vulnerable,* as well as some based on *cancelling forces (Lead-Role, Creative-Vulnerable, *etc).


No, those are _inter_-block, not _intra_-block dynamics. But since you mention them, what are they? ^^


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> No, those are _inter_-block, not _intra_-block dynamics. But since you mention them, what are they? ^^


Apologies, I read one of your examples wrong and assumed that you meant why aren't there inter-block dynamics and must have gotten confused, as I figured the intra-block dynamics can be already ascertained through +/- IM elements, which specify the leaning of the function (N with F, for instance, is denoted N- and F+, which signifies Intuition applied in the area of ethics). Yermak's +/- descriptions can be found here, which uses the original notation of the functions.

Lead-Suggestive -> Information and experience received through the Suggestive Function subsequently makes the Lead function more active and in some cases stronger with its judgments or perceptions. When you are in an environment that is made up mainly of your Suggestive function as an information aspect, your Lead function will inflate to meet the demand in the environment (In a crowd of Se Egos with Ni Super-Id, an Ni Ego becomes the sole supply of the desperately sought after introverted intuition).

Creative-Mobilizing -> Same concept as the Lead-Suggestive, except that engaging your Creative function too much or having others use it too much can sometimes become annoying, and too much help with your Mobilizing function annoys you. Therefore, you generally place less emphasis on receiving information through the Mobilizing function than with your Suggestive function, and tend to only use your Creative function as a means to an end in service to your pursuits with your Lead function, anyways. However, help garnered from types that have your Mobilizing function as 3-dimensional (Dual, Mirage) will, just like the Lead-Suggestive dynamic, strengthen your Creative function due to the fact that they, too, need it for their Mobilizing function.

Demonstrative-Vulnerable -> This axis is interesting considering the fact that it can be deemed as rationalizing failures in your Vulnerable function with your Demonstrative Functions. If you don't see the consequences of actions (Ni), it's because you are too worried about steps that needed to be taken right now to achieve what you need (Se). Or, if you can't see other people objectively and logically categorize them (Ti), it's because you legitimately care about people and what affects them personally (Fe). Due to the fact that both of these elements are subdued, you will not seek out either functions in others, but when others force you to engage them in tasks related to your Vulnerable function, you will subsequently gravitate toward using your Demonstrative function to explain your faults or attack/mock others who actually care about your Vulnerable function as an information aspect.

Ignoring-Role -> Some rationalization can be seen here, but due to the fact that the Ignoring function is cast aside as antithetical to your Lead Function, you will probably only engage it to mock others who care about your Role function as an information aspect.

Lead-Role, Creative-Vulnerable, Suggestive-Ignoring, Mobilizing-Demonstrative -> Due to the fact these functions share the same element attitudes (Je, Pe, Ji, Pi), engaging in one forces you to not pay attention to the other. You cannot direct your attention at the dynamics of people (Fe) and the dynamics of technical processes (Te) at the same time, nor pay attention to the static qualities of objects (Se) and the static potential of objects (Ne), thus, sociotypes specialize in one or the other. Take for example, an IxI, whose Lead is Ni, and whose Role is Si. The IxI pays most of his attention toward processes occurring outside of present reality as it lies, trying to perceive distortions in reality and how fake or real the reality in front of them is, so then he must shift his attention entirely if he must perceive how the environment affects him physically. Thus, these inter-block dynamics have an on-off feeling, you are either engaging Introverted Intuition or Introverted Sensation, and Introverted Feeling or Introverted Thinking, as they force you to pay attention to different things within the same element attitudes.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> Apologies, I read one of your examples wrong and assumed that you meant why aren't there inter-block dynamics and must have gotten confused, as I figured the intra-block dynamics can be already ascertained through +/- IM elements, which specify the leaning of the function (N with F, for instance, is denoted N- and F+, which signifies Intuition applied in the area of ethics). Yermak's +/- descriptions can be found here, which uses the original notation of the functions.


The +- designation is different than the accepting-producing one. The latter indicates the _flow_ of information and is generally in the direction from producing to accepting. Accepting and producing functions can both be either + or -. Also, my understanding is the accepting-producing idea is original to the theory while the +- idea was created and added later.

http://en.socionicasys.org/teorija/dlja-novichkov/bloki-i-kolca

The link above shows the model stack and the flow of _control_ within block functions. It also calls the mental and vital superblocks "tracks", suggesting control (and information) flows _around_ the tracks laid out by the control diagram. It also claims the control for the entire model stack originates in the _suggesting_ function. Does it flow through the whole vital track before moving to the mental track? Does it have to go through the supergo in the vital track?


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

For starters, I don't think the Superego functions "interact" very much because they aren't strong areas of a person's cognitive structure and lack free flow of intake and use. It would be more a case of how someone perceives input from these functions together than how they interact when in use, which is what we typically see with the Base/Creative descriptions. 

The PoLR is an area of deficiency and sensitivity, a sense of ineptness and vulnerable lack of awareness. The Role is an unacceptable but helpful alternative to your Base. Strength in both of these functions makes the communicant look oddly novel and intriguing from afar, because the Role is an area you'd like to improve and the PoLR is an area that represents your biggest gap and an area of possible unknown danger. When used with the same rationality as your type, the Superego block looks more like a shadow of your own perspectives, giving a sense of full coverage of the single perspective. When it is used with the opposite rationality as your type, it looks like a confusing, but somehow effective opposite goal. 

People sometimes "use" the Superego block when they first meet new people, or once they have trailblazed a pre-established or pre-obtained convention of the two functions. I would think in these cases the Role feeds the PoLR, in a very rudimentary, static copycat of the Ego block.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Figure said:


> For starters, I don't think the Superego functions "interact" very much because they aren't strong areas of a person's cognitive structure and lack free flow of intake and use. It would be more a case of how someone perceives *input from these functions together *than how they interact when in use, which is what we typically see with the Base/Creative descriptions.


What do you mean "input from these functions _together_"? Do the superego functions each give input to the ego or other blocks? Or are the output from each combined to give a single superego output? 



Figure said:


> The PoLR is an area of deficiency and sensitivity, a sense of ineptness and vulnerable lack of awareness. The Role is an unacceptable but helpful alternative to your Base. Strength in both of these functions makes the communicant look oddly novel and intriguing from afar, because the Role is an area you'd like to improve and the PoLR is an area that represents your biggest gap and an area of possible unknown danger. When used with the *same rationality as your type,* the Superego block looks more like a shadow of your own perspectives, giving a sense of full coverage of the single perspective. When it is used with the *opposite rationality as your type,* it looks like a confusing, but somehow effective opposite goal.


The superego has he same "rationality" as the ego. How can it be used in the "opposite" sense?



Figure said:


> People sometimes "use" the Superego block when they first meet new people, or once they have trailblazed a pre-established or pre-obtained convention of the two functions. I would think in these cases the Role feeds the PoLR, in a very rudimentary, static copycat of the Ego block.


Why would they use it when they first meet new people? What does "trailblazed a pre-established or pre-obtained convention..." mean? And the role fcn is the _accepting_ fcn. Why would it feed the PoLR? Isn't the flow of information the other way around?


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> Lead-Suggestive -> Information and experience received through the Suggestive Function subsequently makes the Lead function more active and in some cases stronger with its judgments or perceptions. When you are in an environment that is made up mainly of your Suggestive function as an information aspect, your Lead function will inflate to meet the demand in the environment (In a crowd of Se Egos with Ni Super-Id, an Ni Ego becomes the sole supply of the desperately sought after introverted intuition).
> 
> Creative-Mobilizing -> Same concept as the Lead-Suggestive, except that engaging your Creative function too much or having others use it too much can sometimes become annoying, and too much help with your Mobilizing function annoys you. Therefore, you generally place less emphasis on receiving information through the Mobilizing function than with your Suggestive function, and tend to only use your Creative function as a means to an end in service to your pursuits with your Lead function, anyways. However, help garnered from types that have your Mobilizing function as 3-dimensional (Dual, Mirage) will, just like the Lead-Suggestive dynamic, strengthen your Creative function due to the fact that they, too, need it for their Mobilizing function.
> 
> ...


All of these examples involve interblock and not intrablock dynamics.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> All of these examples involve interblock and not intrablock dynamics.





> *No, those are inter-block, not intra-block dynamics. But since you mention them, what are they? ^^*


That is what you requested.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> The +- designation is different than the accepting-producing one. The latter indicates the _flow_ of information and is generally in the direction from producing to accepting. Accepting and producing functions can both be either + or -. Also, my understanding is the accepting-producing idea is original to the theory while the +- idea was created and added later.
> 
> Blocks and rings of the A-model | School of System Socionics
> 
> The link above shows the model stack and the flow of _control_ within block functions. It also calls the mental and vital superblocks "tracks", suggesting control (and information) flows _around_ the tracks laid out by the control diagram. It also claims the control for the entire model stack originates in the _suggesting_ function. Does it flow through the whole vital track before moving to the mental track? Does it have to go through the supergo in the vital track?


The specific mindset of +/- involving areas of specification and generality is an addition, but the concept of "T oriented in an N fashion and F oriented in an S fashion" is actually fairly redundant to Model A itself, with the producing functions being specific ways of relaying your accepting functions to the world, the output of each block.

The idea that the Suggestive function powers the whole model is probably due to the assertion that it both begins the vital flow of information and subsequently powers and supports the Lead function, which in turn begins the mental flow of information. Information received through the suggestive function subsequently churns the vital flow of information so that the Id block can be successfully activated and mobilized in defense of the information supply for the Suggestive function (which is primarily for Duals and Activity Partners, whose Super-Ego block is your Id block). At the same time, information received from the suggestive function stimulates and increases the power of your Lead function, which in turn trickles information down its mental track, flowing from the Lead function to the Vulnerable function. This is why the Suggestive function is often referred to as the self-actualization function, because its stimulation influences both flows of information and thus leads to easier access and easier understanding of the Vulnerable function (which lies at the bottom of the mental track) and the demonstrative function (which lies at the bottom of the vital track). Thus, there are two separate tracks, but both can be influenced and started through the suggestive function.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> Why would they use [the Super-Ego functions] when they first meet new people?


Because the Super-Ego is the block of social expectation. You expect that people expect these function from you, and thus you strive to make a good impression on others with them, which usually involves politely entertaining topics related to your Role function and the avoidance of stimuli toward your Vulnerable function, for the latter of which will more than likely cause ridicule and embarrassment, which isn't worth trying to play up.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> That is what you requested.


I was thinking of intrablock dynamics when I read and and forgot my request! My bad. And thanks.



Alea_iacta_est said:


> Because the Super-Ego is the block of social expectation. You expect that people expect these function from you, and thus you strive to make a good impression on others with them, which usually involves politely entertaining topics related to your Role function and the avoidance of stimuli toward your Vulnerable function, for the latter of which will more than likely cause ridicule and embarrassment, which isn't worth trying to play up.


So if your role function is say Ti, what kind of chit-chat would you engage in? It seems to me you would engage in whatever the topic _du jour_ is whatever function that engages. Why would you feel compelled to use the role to engage new people? More often than not, you need some Fe, maybe some Ne, etc. Subjective functions we don't normally show anyway, especially introverts.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> The specific mindset of *+/- involving areas of specification and generality is an addition, but the concept of "T oriented in an N fashion and F oriented in an S fashion"* is actually fairly redundant to Model A itself, with *the producing functions being specific ways of relaying your accepting functions to the world, the output of each block*.


So "T oriented in an N fashion" means T+ and N-? And how do the two functions in each of the four blocks interact to produce the block output? And the output comes out of the accepting function, right?



> The idea that the Suggestive function powers the whole model is probably due to the assertion that it both begins the vital flow of information and *subsequently powers and supports the Lead function, *which in turn begins the mental flow of information. Information received through the suggestive function subsequently churns the vital flow of information so that the Id block can be successfully activated and *mobilized in defense of the information supply for the Suggestive function* (which is primarily for Duals and Activity Partners, whose Super-Ego block is your Id block). At the same time, information received from the suggestive function stimulates and increases the power of your Lead function, which in turn trickles information down its mental track, flowing from the Lead function to the Vulnerable function. This is why the Suggestive function is often referred to as the self-actualization function, because its stimulation influences both flows of information and thus leads to easier access and easier understanding of the Vulnerable function (which lies at the bottom of the mental track) and the demonstrative function (which lies at the bottom of the vital track). Thus, there are two separate tracks, but both can be influenced and started through the suggestive function.


So the suggestive function directly feeds the lead function? What do you mean by "subsequently feeds..."? Why "subsequent"? And the suggestive fcn is an accepting so it's supposed to take inputs from the producing mobilizing function. What information does it get from the mobilizing function? And finally, what do you mean by "mobilized in defence of the information supply for the Suggestive function"?


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> I was thinking of intrablock dynamics when I read and and forgot my request! My bad. And thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> So if your role function is say Ti, what kind of chit-chat would you engage in? It seems to me you would engage in whatever the topic _du jour_ is whatever function that engages. Why would you feel compelled to use the role to engage new people? More often than not, you need some Fe, maybe some Ne, etc. Subjective functions we don't normally show anyway, especially introverts.


Ti Role would be the desire to appear logically sane, orderly, and rational to others while realizing that you actually aren't. Wanting others to see you as able to understand system hierarchies and able to objectively analyze and categorize things in a mental framework, so that _they will not criticize you for not being so._ The Role function, like the Vulnerable function, is considered to be your downfall, but the difference lies in the fact that the Vulnerable function is seen as something beyond hope while the Role function is seen as something that can be fixed with great effort (even though it will probably never be fixed). Therefore, you try to look like you are succeeding in your Role function when engaging new people, so that you leave the impression of a balanced person.

Also, it should be important to note that functions in the mental block strive to express themselves objectively (even the introverted functions, in which case the subjective feelings produced by them are relayed objectively to others anyways) while functions in the vital block appear to be expressed more subjectively.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> Ti Role would be the desire to appear logically sane, orderly, and rational to others while realizing that you actually aren't. Wanting others to see you as able to understand system hierarchies and able to objectively analyze and categorize things in a mental framework, so that _they will not criticize you for not being so._ The Role function, like the Vulnerable function, is considered to be your downfall, but the difference lies in the fact that the Vulnerable function is seen as something beyond hope while the Role function is seen as something that can be fixed with great effort (even though it will probably never be fixed). Therefore, you try to look like you are succeeding in your Role function when engaging new people, so that you leave the impression of a balanced person.
> 
> Also, it should be important to note that *functions in the mental block strive to express themselves objectively *(even the introverted functions, in which case the subjective feelings produced by them are relayed objectively to others anyways) while functions in the vital block appear to be expressed more subjectively.


So how would Fi express itself in the role function? How would it express itself in the vulnerable fcn? And the creative?


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> So "T oriented in an N fashion" means T+ and N-? And how do the two functions in each of the four blocks interact to produce the block output? And the output comes out of the accepting function, right?
> 
> 
> 
> So the suggestive function directly feeds the lead function? What do you mean by "subsequently feeds..."? Why "subsequent"? And the suggestive fcn is an accepting so it's supposed to take inputs from the producing mobilizing function. What information does it get from the mobilizing function? And finally, what do you mean by "mobilized in defence of the information supply for the Suggestive function"?


Actually, "T oriented in an N fashion" is denoted in Socionics as T- and N+, as T+ is "T oriented in an S fashion"* (this is due to preassigned +/- notations). The accepting function will be the input of information, and the producing function will be the output of whatever the directive of the accepting function is. With an accepting function of Fe, we see the reception of the Fe information aspect that is subjected to analysis "What is this person feeling, what is causing him to feel this way, how can I change that" (dynamics of emotional processes). Then, with a producing function of Si, we see this information outputted in the form of making the environment more pleasurable and comfortable for the other person. (Fe-Si, by the way, is Fe- and Si+)

Stimulation of the Suggestive function is soothing to the sociotype, due to the fact that it is the inverse of the Lead function. The more stimulation that is received through the Suggestive function, the stronger and more pronounced your Lead function will become. The Suggestive function actually receives information from the environment (accepting) and is produced or outputted through the Mobilizing function (that which your particular suggestive function is aimed at).

If you notice in the Model A stackings of Duals, one dual's Demonstrative function is the other's Vulnerable function. This allows for one dual to easily cover for the other's shortcomings in their Vulnerable function, especially since that dual will supply the supporting dual with information toward their Suggestive function, which in turn, as discussed before, strengthens the vital track and therefore increases the ease of access and understanding to and of the Demonstrative function. Thus, when others begin criticizing your dual's Vulnerable function, you will instinctively fend off the critics with your more primal, aggressive Demonstrative function, and since your dual is the source of your Suggestive function's input, you are defending your supply of your Suggestive information aspect. This reasoning is also why Dual relations are better than Activity Relations in some regards, as the latter of which has a correspondence between the Ignoring function of both types and the Vulnerable function of both types, and due to the fact that the ignoring function is more realized as something that is wanted to be done away with, Partners will be more reluctant to help each other's Vulnerable functions, as they don't wish to engage their Ignoring function unless the situation directly calls for it, preferring the Lead perspective.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

ae1905 said:


> So how would Fi express itself in the role function? How would it express itself in the vulnerable fcn? And the creative?


"I have a clear reason to disagree with or agree with people or ideas on an ethical basis." Your emotional or ethical reaction to things, while you don't prefer to pay attention to them, should feel as though they should have a sound basis that others can understand, in contrast to Fi vital types, who tend to subjectively state "I just don't like [such and such] or I do like [such and such]" while being somewhat unable to provide a reason that others would be able to understand clearly.

Fi Role would manifest as a desire to appear refined and courteous to new people for the sole purpose that you expect others expect it of you. They want to appear polite, kind even, and appropriate so that others won't criticize them for their tendency to not care about the socially appropriate thing to like, dislike, or do, since they really only care about what seems logically right or reasonably right according to their analysis of things.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alea_iacta_est said:


> Actually, "T oriented in an N fashion" is denoted in Socionics as T- and N+, as T+ is "T oriented in an S fashion"* (this is due to preassigned +/- notations).


Right. So +- can be assigned to the accepting functions, T+ or T- in your example. So they aren't the same idea as accepting-producing. Accepting functions are always the odd numbered functions in the model stack; they are the _controlling_ functions in their blocks. So +- doesn't signify the direction or control of information. What purpose, then, does +- serve?



> *The accepting function will be the input of information, and the producing function will be the output of whatever the directive of the accepting function is. *With an accepting function of Fe, we see the reception of the Fe information aspect that is subjected to analysis "What is this person feeling, what is causing him to feel this way, how can I change that" (dynamics of emotional processes). Then, with a producing function of Si, we see this information outputted in the form of making the environment more pleasurable and comfortable for the other person. (Fe-Si, by the way, is Fe- and Si+)


If the accepting function is the "input of information" _from_ the producing function, then wouldn't the output for the block come from the _accepting_ function, not the producing? Doesn't _producing_ mean producing _for_ the accepting to accept _as input_?



> Stimulation of the Suggestive function is soothing to the sociotype, due to the fact that it is the inverse of the Lead function. The more stimulation that is received through the Suggestive function, the stronger and more pronounced your Lead function will become. The *Suggestive function actually receives information from the environment (accepting) and is produced or outputted through the Mobilizing function *(that which your particular suggestive function is aimed at).


Same question about the direction of information and source of output. But also where does the superid block's output go to? You seem to suggest it goes out of the person, but what about the vital track? Doesn't the superid output flow around the vital track? And if so, where does it come out and where does it go?

And how do the +- designations affect these dynamics? How does this work differently in a T+ vs a T- type?



> If you notice in the Model A stackings of Duals, one dual's Demonstrative function is the other's Vulnerable function. This allows for one dual to easily cover for the other's shortcomings in their Vulnerable function, especially since that dual will supply the supporting dual with information toward their Suggestive function, which in turn, as discussed before, *strengthens the vital track and therefore increases the ease of access and understanding to and of the Demonstrative function.* Thus, when others begin criticizing your dual's Vulnerable function, you will instinctively fend off the critics with your more primal, aggressive Demonstrative function, and since your dual is the source of your Suggestive function's input, you are defending your supply of your Suggestive information aspect.


Here, the output of the superid goes around the vital track down to the id block. Let's take the example of an LII. How does the information from the suggestive function flow through the vital track and "increase the ease of access and understanding to and of the Demonstrative function"? And how do the other id track functions benefit or respond to this same flow?



> This reasoning is also why Dual relations are better than Activity Relations in some regards, as the latter of which has a correspondence between the Ignoring function of both types and the Vulnerable function of both types, and due to the fact that the ignoring function is more realized as something that is wanted to be done away with, Partners will be more reluctant to help each other's Vulnerable functions, as they don't wish to engage their Ignoring function unless the situation directly calls for it, preferring the Lead perspective.


This actually contradicts what you said above about the source of output of the ego (and other) block(s). The activation relations have the creative functions in each other's suggestive. If output is from the creative function, as you claim, then the activation relations would stimulate the suggestive functions more than the duals; and that stimulation should flow around the vital track and benefit the ignoring functions, thus strengthening them to come to the defence of the vulnerable.

So for the idea of duality to work as claimed, the outputs of the ego (and other) blocks must come from the accepting function, not the producing.

Btw, is there any *scientific evidence* that any of this actually happens? How do you know any of this is actually happening?


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