# How do you find your type when you're healthy?



## Animal (May 29, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> The type 6 descriptions are terrible. None of them really sound like me and I can't relate at all to the levels of development (even the most detailed level descriptions from books), so I have no idea what level I'm at. I think the descriptions try to be broad but actually end up sounding vague and confusing. Instead of trying to make a one-size-fits-all description (which clearly doesn't work), maybe we need separate descriptions for different types of sixes. There are at least three main types of sixes that I've noticed (codependent phobic, independent phobic, and counterphobic), but only two are described. And they're usually described together rather than separately, even though some 6's are almost exclusively phobic.


When I came to the forum, I relied on those same descriptions. I read a few Riso-Hudson books 12 years ago (when I was severely disintegrated after a serious trauma), and mistyped at 5. But over the years I started to see serious signs of type 8. I came to PerC partially to sort out that discrepancy. However, I started seeing really ugly sides of type 8 that I didn't want to admit to myself, and clung to type 5. =/ I'm sorry, by the way, if I was misinformed/ less informed when I initially commented on your type-me thread. I didn't understand the enneagram with the depth I do now, and even now, I am at the point where I know enough to realize how much I *don't* know, if that makes sense.

However, the books that got me from that point to the understanding I have now were mostly Naranjo's "Character and Neurosis" and partly, Maitri's "Passions and Virtues."

Naranjo spares no one. I had already typed at 8, and it was a thoroughly painful and intense process, which made me pretty sure of my typing. When I read the Type 8 description by Naranjo, however, I once again shied away from my typing. It was *so* ugly I felt sick. But then I read the other types. While some seemed less "ugly" to me (since it ran less deep within myself) I was able to see that all of the pathologies, at their worst, have pretty bad potential. So I would suggest, if you are going to read his 6 or 5 description, that you would also read all of the other descriptions.

You seem very honest with yourself, and truly open to learning. =) I like your approach.

And, having been through so much with enneagram, I will never "come down hard" on someone about their type-me thread again!! =O I feel bad that I approached you with such vigor, but I was going through my own bullshit at the time, regarding some of the things in type 8 that I didn't want to see in myself; clinging to type 5 because it was the next most plausible option. (I even mistyped at 3 after that, as it seemed slightly more plausible.) I have come to believe a lot of the type-me threads end up being more projective on the parts of the typers than helpful for the typee so again, I'm sorry about that =,)

But anyhow, Naranjo is my strongest recommendation. And feel free to PM if you want to discuss anything =)


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## Flatlander (Feb 25, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> The type 6 descriptions are terrible. None of them really sound like me and I can't relate at all to the levels of development (even the most detailed level descriptions from books), so I have no idea what level I'm at.


Those level things read to me like a vague scale of your level of psychological health - so on the lower end you'll get a deep fall into your neuroses, and on the higher end you'll get a transcending of your neuroses into the capabilities they imply. I tend to approximate along the scale based on how low or high I know I can go and in what way.

This is why, though, I use them approximately rather than based on the precise things they say - they might not hold true for everyone just as stated. Approximation and fitting to your own situation makes it a better tool.


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## Tridentus (Dec 14, 2009)

you need to study functions, not type descriptions or anything else. once you know the ins and outs of each function there can be no doubt as to your type..

so many people on this forum waffle out "oh i'm this type because i do this", and make it clear they haven't explored the function theory properly, and believe it to be some kind of "identity" thing, or "behavioural" thing. in truth it's even possible for two people to be accessing different functions, and exhibit the same behaviour- the only way to tell them apart would be to explore why they are really motivated to behave that way, because the two reasons would be subtly different. as a simple example, two people could enjoy displaying a particular functional ability- say the ability to collect and store data.. one person might enjoy their ability to do that because they know it comes naturally to them, another type might be insecure about their ability to do that, because in fact they are an opposite type to the first person and have a low disposition to Si, and yet they equally enjoy promoting their abilities at it simply because they like to appear and believe they are good at that. the two people would appear to exhibit the same trait, but the functional orientation and motivations are very different. you get a million of these intersecting and complicating the learning of mbti.

one useful tool i like to use is to compare yourself when you are stressed as opposed to when you are happy.. most people tend to exhibit the opposite functions when they are stressed, and seem to turn into a completely different person. of course, some people may be chronically depressed, or always stressed, and would find it counter-productive to search for such comparisons- and so this has lots of variables to consider as well.

there's a hell of a lot to learn and consider, and tbh you can't really understand mbti properly unless you have a good grasp of both general psychology and are a generally very self-aware person.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I've been thinking about type 6, thinking about my motivations, and reading some more about the type. What I decided about my motivations is that I certainly _could _be driven by self-doubt and the need for security, but I still can't really say for sure whether this is my primary motivation. This is the same conclusion I came to in the past. 

I've been reading from _Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery_, and I read that type stems from the basic fear, which leads one to develop a self-image that serves to protect one from that fear. So I started thinking: what is my self-image? Here's my list:

Nonjudgmental
Self-aware
Self-honest
Deep
Introspective
Open-minded

There are other adjectives that strongly describe me as well, but these ones are special because these are the ones I'm so attached to that I will get upset and defensive when accused of not being these things. My self-image seems to be based on the idea that I'm easy to get along with (nonjudgmental, open-minded), and that I have personal depth and self-understanding. So what fear do all of these revolve around? The first part sounds like sp 6--being non-threatening and easy to get along with to avoid making enemies. But the second part has nothing to do with security. "Self-aware", "Self-honest", "deep", and "introspective" all sound very 4-ish. I'll have to think some more about what these traits mean to me, where they come from, and why they're so important.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Seeing yourself in every type or finding none fit much at all is usually indicative of being in the 3-6-9 triad, due to the nature of their fixations, although that is not a fool-proof way to type & in itself should not be used to type. I suggest looking closer into 6, based on a lot of what you've said. And yeah, if you really want to get past stereotypes & grasp the fundamental meaning of each fix, then read some Naranjo. I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm echoing...

I agree that being healthy would include an awareness of how you can be & have been unhealthy, because "healthy" is not some finish line you reach. It's kind of like a major weight loss - maintaining it means life-long changes, & while once your weight has stabilized it's usually easier to maintain, you can still always gain weight again if you indulge too much in old bad habits (which will continue to pop up as temptations). Each enneatype is very "tempted" by their "passion" as a way to cope with life, explain reality, etc. To avoid sliding back, awareness has to be maintained, so a healthier person, IMO, may be more likely to identify their e-type easily.


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## CataclysmSolace (Mar 13, 2012)

In my experience; doing extensive research, testing myself, and relating to a certain type for a indiscernible amount of time has helped me decide my type. Of course every couple of months or so, I go through the same process over and over to test if I have changed at all. 

When I first got into Enneagram theory I was a 6w5. After about a half a year, I re-evaluated myself to be a 5w6. Four to five months after that I re-tested as a 5w4, which I am now. From my experience and knowledge, the core type rarely changes. Tritypes are easier to change than anything else; I've changed it many times but used the same method.

These are just my observations and experiences with settling on types. Every person's personality is dynamic, ever changing, one description one week could fit any person better than the following week.


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> 4 and 5 sound right but don't really feel right. 9 feels right but when I actually read about it, it doesn't sound right. 6 neither sounds nor feels right, but since it's so common and easy to miss, I can't ignore the possibility.
> 
> What about 9? I really identify with this type because *I feel slothful both physically and mentally*. When I was a child my parents sometimes complained that I move slowly. Mentally, I see myself as intelligent but slow. *I need more time than most to process things and organize my thoughts into anything comprehensible, but given sufficient time I can come up with more thoughtful ideas than most people*.
> 
> ...


Ok, don't want to confuse you anymore, but I was reading through this and I thought that you sounded like my 9 friend. I bolded some of it which sounded like things she might say or things I believe she believes.

You might be a 9, but your "instinctual variants" and "stacking" might have something to do with you being more assertive.
Take a look at the bottom of this link's page (sorry to send you more links! I know you are getting a lot of them.)

http://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...iptions-from-Oceanmoonshine-and-Other-Sources

I can't guarantee the accuracy, I just got into enneagram myself...but if the instinctual stacking descriptions are true, then you might identify with one of them.

Ah, I'll just post the section about 9's:

*Type 9*​
Enneatype Nines are out of touch with the instinctual center. Because Nines are of touch with their instinctual energy they have a very conflicted relationship to the expression of the various instincts.

9-SP/SO: This subtype is the most self-effacing of type Nine, possibly the least assertive of all the enneagram types. They can feel as though they have been looked over and passed by. While they do desire attention and recognition, with the sexual instinct last in the stacking, they seldom actively pursue it. They feel as though it’s just not worth it. This subtype is usually very deliberate and methodical in their speech. They sometimes get frustrated because they don’t feel that they can say what they really want to say. They are therefore often very short and concise with their communication, not wanting to provoke any confrontation. But when given a chance and the time to express themselves, they can be quite talkative. While self-pres needs are important to this type, the fact that they are essentially Nines, sometimes causes them to put the needs of others before their own. When under stress, this type is likely to do busy work, anything that distracts them from their problems.
In relationships, the self-pres instinct combines with the merging qualities of the Nine to make a person committed and connected strongly in areas of security, home and other practical matters. They merge their environment with their loved ones. On the down side, this subtype can be passive-aggressive and withdraw under stress, holding back affection. They could possibly go long periods of time without talking to their spouse directly.

9-SP/SX: This subtype is self-effacing also, but is generally more assertive. They may be the subtype of Nine which is most aware of the boundaries between themselves and others and at the same time, possibly the most frustrated when those boundaries are violated. They can be aware of being walked over and they might even be aware of the anger it causes, but they become frustrated with their seeming inability to control this pattern. This is true, to some degree, of all Nines, but with the self-pres/sexual instinctual stacking, there seems to be a complex and interesting balance between the withdrawing energy caused by the dominant self-pres instinct and the assertive energy of the sexual instinct. This combination seems to raise consciousness of this dynamic.
Getting healthy for this subtype, and for all Nines, involves becoming aware of this dynamic and realizing they do have the power to control their boundaries. Part of this must come from the realization on the part of the Nine that they have invited this overstepping of their boundaries from others by not defining them.
Close relationships will usually work or not for this subtype depending on how well they deal with this issue.

9-SO/SP: Social Nines feel the need for validation and for "fitting in" but they feel these indirectly. They move towards others in a way which can resemble Twos, but they are motivated by a desire to initiate and maintain contact without provoking conflict. On the high side, the social/self-pres Nine generally knows a lot of people and gets along with most everyone. They are helpful people who generally have a great sense of humor. They get involved with the social environment. They might be the soccer coach, or if politically inclined, they might join and participate in a political party. When in leadership roles, they lead by consensus and charm. Their skill is in conflict management. With the sexual instinct last, they tend to avoid intensity, but they are actively involved with people.
Intimate relationships might be frustrating for the partner of this subtype of Nine because the Nine's social engagements might make the partner feel as though the Nine is connected with everyone except them. Sometimes this subtype can use their social connections in a passive-aggressive way against the partner; they might withhold attention from the partner in lieu of spending time with friends.

9-SO/SX: This subtype is "everyone’s friend." The social/sexual energy combines with the Nine's merging tendency and conflict avoidance to create a subtype that is very charming and uses humor quite extensively to engage with the people in their lives. On the down side, they can be frustrating because they can easily lose focus when it comes to their life priorities. With the self-pres instinct last in the stacking, they have a hard time tending to their own needs. They drift, and tend to use their charm to get a lot of their self-pres needs met by the people in their lives. When the Eight wing is dominant, they sometimes even develop a sense of entitlement, though they are just as likely to return help to those they charm into helping them.
In relationships, this subtype can suffer from some of the same problems as the other social subtype. They usually fall into a relationship in which the partner pushes them to "do more" with their lives. This can be positive for both parties, but often ends up causing resentment to build for both partners.

9-SX/SP: The energy of the sexual instinct is at odds with the dominant type Nine energy and makes for a conflicted subtype. These Nines can appear to have a stronger connection to Three, for this reason. The assertive fiery energy engages in a constant push-pull with the calm peace-seeking energy of the Nine. This subtype can have an intense relationship with their environment. They are often drawn to solo sports or to an active engagement with nature that involves some risk and exertion. These Nines are drawn to peak experiences. They might enjoy outdoor solo sports or engaging in nature by way of hiking, rock climbing etc.
With the social instinct last in the stacking, there can be an on/off quality when it comes to relating and these Nines are often somewhat moodier than the other subtypes. As with the self-pres/sexual, this subtype might not engage socially with the same smoothness as other subtypes of Nine. They seem to go towards others in a staccato fashion - they connect in bursts, then withdraw.
When it comes to intimate relationships, this subtype can be needy. The merging of the Nine combines with the intensity of the sexual instinct to create a subtype that will always be in danger of losing themselves in a relationship. Their boundaries for themselves and their partner can become blurred which can lead to conflicts. This subtype might have a hard time judging clearly the degree to which they have merged.

9-SX/SO: This subtype of Nine may appear least like a stereotypical Nine because the outward sexual and social energies obscure some of the withdrawing and "zoning out" tendencies of the Nine. These Nines are the most connected and assertive of the subtypes of Nine, especially when it comes to relationships. There is still some internal struggle, as with the sexual/self-pres, but overall there is less of a tendency to withdraw. With the self-pres instinct last, this subtype can neglect self-preservationist needs in favor of the intensity of their sexual instinct's pursuits. Individuals of this subtype could easily be mistaken for the dominant wing, because the sexual energy tends to flow in a manner similar to the energy of the wing. A Nine with a One wing would therefore appear more One-like and a Nine with Eight might be mistaken for an Eight.
The central conflict for these Nines will still be in the realm of close intimate relationships and these Nines will have many of the same issues and challenges as the sexual/self-pres Nines.




*And if you have been very stressed lately, then you might think and behave like a 6...which could explain why you tested as a 6 in that quiz I gave you.

Or you could be a healthy 3? haha. A healthy 3 also can behave like a 6, but when stressed they become like a 9! So confusing...

But I have a 3 sister, who also cares about peace and not hurting others. But she never really talks much about this side of her. It is almost like she doesn't consciously know how much she needs peace, cuz she makes herself so busy.*


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> I've been thinking about type 6, thinking about my motivations, and reading some more about the type. What I decided about my motivations is that I certainly _could _be driven by self-doubt and the need for security, but I still can't really say for sure whether this is my primary motivation. This is the same conclusion I came to in the past.
> 
> I've been reading from _Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery_, and I read that type stems from the basic fear, which leads one to develop a self-image that serves to protect one from that fear. So I started thinking: what is my self-image? Here's my list:
> 
> ...


the _introspective_, _open-minded,_and _deep_ adjectives could even stem from your mbti such as you being an intp or infj.

I am an enfj type 4, so I often find things conflict at times with the descriptions I read. Sometimes they portray type 4 as very dark, which I usually am not if I'm not too stressed, and I think this is because I am an ENFJ, which are typically portrayed as very happy cheerful folk (which I always thought was exaggerated...since I am a 4). The MBTI seem to both compliment and contradict each other and I find that it helps describe my personality much better when I use them together.

It helps to explain why I find my extraversion and introversion traits are equally matched, probably due to being an Enfj 4w5. Though lately I'm starting to feel more and more introverted. I sometimes have a strong desire to be left alone, especially if I am deep in thought over something, yet I know being with people can really energize me.


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## Kitfool (Oct 24, 2012)

I am too tired to read this entire thread, but your case is very interesting to me. I am almost positive you are a 469 (though I think 9 is your main). I've known of 469s to be very self doubting. 9s often have trouble typing themselves and are more passive observers than anything. You could be a 459 actually. I am pretty sure you are a 9w1 though.

How about...9w1 6w5 4w5?


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