# Shy extrovert's support thread



## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

I'm not sure if people realize shy extroverts are a thing and it might lead to many mistypes.

I'm a total awkward penguin in many social situations. I think my social anxiety comes from dom-Fe: I'm hyperaware of how people percieve me and if I say/do something wrong and people judge me for it I find it life-distroying. Especially when I was younger I was very sensitive and withdrawn 'cause I didn't want to get hurt (yey enneagram 6!). Not very stereotypical ENFJ behavior of me but that's how it was.

Does anyone else have experiences of this?


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

I don't understand it when people say "Introversion and extraversion have nothing to do with social skills or shyness". They use this mysterious "energy" term that has no practical application whatsoever. How can an extravert be shy? If they are, then they would prefer to be in their own company, right? Even if this was not the case, the overwhelming majority of people (I presume) have an intuitive understanding of introversion vs extraversion; which they define primarily on how easy they find it to socialise or how comfortable they feel with a load of strangers.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand it when people say "Introversion and extraversion have nothing to do with social skills or shyness". They use this mysterious "energy" term that has no practical application whatsoever. How can an extravert be shy? If they are, then they would prefer to be in their own company, right? Even if this was not the case, the overwhelming majority of people (I presume) have an intuitive understanding of introversion vs extraversion; which they define primarily on how easy they find it to socialise or how comfortable they feel with a load of strangers.


The same way an introvert can not be shy. Being I or E has nothing to do with shyness. Think of Putin. Does he strike you as being shy? What about Hitler?

You can be shy and enjoy being around others.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Noir said:


> The same way an introvert can not be shy. Being I or E has nothing to do with shyness. Think of Putin. Does he strike you as being shy? What about Hitler?
> 
> You can be shy but like being around others.


So what makes them "introverts" then?


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> So what makes them "introverts" then?


Extract from wikipedia:



> Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life". Some popular psychologists have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction. This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction.
> 
> They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking. Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.
> 
> Mistaking introversion for shyness is a common error. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not necessarily fear social encounters like shy people do.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Perhaps I used the wrong term. I associate shyness not just with feeling awkward, but also with the whole image of being an introvert - that feeling of being overwhelmed from too much social interaction. I'm not going off the dictionary definition, just the laymen's terms. My point is, if you're extroverted, why would you have trouble with socialising? An extravert would, in psychology speak, "gain energy" from social interaction. So I don't see how an extrovert can find it difficult to socialise with others. But as MBTI is about preference rather than ability, I suppose it must make sense... somehow. But preference and ability often go hand in hand. Certain types are attracted to certain things after all. If MBTI didn't allow us to make at least SOME generalisations and stereotypes, it would ultimately just be a theoretical framework where people found it impossible to type anyone but themselves. The whole point of MBTI is not only to understand oneself better, but to also be aware of others. I'm not saying people should go around typing everyone they see, but if it was easier to type people based on generalisations then we would have a better understanding of how we should interact with them better.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Perhaps I used the wrong term. I associate shyness not just with feeling awkward, but also with the whole image of being an introvert - that feeling of being overwhelmed from too much social interaction. I'm not going off the dictionary definition, just the laymen's terms. My point is, if you're extroverted, why would you have trouble with socialising? An extravert would, in psychology speak, "gain energy" from social interaction. So I don't see how an extrovert can find it difficult to socialise with others. But as MBTI is about preference rather than ability, I suppose it must make sense... somehow. But preference and ability often go hand in hand. Certain types are attracted to certain things after all. If MBTI didn't allow us to make at least SOME generalisations and stereotypes, it would ultimately just be a theoretical framework where people found it impossible to type anyone but themselves. The whole point of MBTI is not only to understand oneself better, but to also be aware of others. I'm not saying people should go around typing everyone they see, but if it was easier to type people based on generalisations then we would have a better understanding of how we should interact with them better.


In MBTI being an extrovert doesn't mean layman's terms extrovert. MBTI focuses on cognitive introversion/extraversion: are you understanding things through the object (extrovert) or the subject (introvert). 

All in all as an extrovert you focus mostly on external stimulation. This doesn't increase your social skills directly: while you seek the stimulation you bump into other people and get more practice when it comes to interacting with others but that's about it.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Straystuff said:


> In MBTI being an extrovert doesn't mean layman's terms extrovert. MBTI focuses on cognitive introversion/extraversion: are you understanding things through the object (extrovert) or the subject (introvert).
> 
> All in all as an extrovert you focus mostly on external stimulation. This doesn't increase your social skills directly: while you seek the stimulation you bump into other people and get more practice when it comes to interacting with others but that's about it.


In that case, how is anybody supposed to tell whether someone is an introvert or extrovert? How can you tell if you're an introvert or extravert without using functions? Even if the MBTI's definition is more formally inline with psychology, the practical application is greatly diminished imo.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> In that case, how is anybody supposed to tell whether someone is an introvert or extrovert? How can you tell if you're an introvert or extravert without using functions? Even if the MBTI's definition is more formally inline with psychology, the practical application is greatly diminished imo.


Here you go


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

I usually go with the whole "recharge" thing. Introverts prefer to recharge alone or only with one, _maybe _two other people. Extroverts recharge by being with groups.

I'm an extrovert. I crave social activity, but it doesn't always mean I prefer to engage. Sometimes, I sparsely participate in conversation but I still feel that I'm relaxing and chillin'. I can't be alone for too long, it bothers me. I crave the presence of people.

So while I'm not SHY by any means, I don't always engage. I'm still very solidly extroverted. Intro/extroversion is a need, HOW we fulfill that need can vary substantially.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

stiletto said:


> I usually go with the whole "recharge" thing. Introverts prefer to recharge alone or only with one, _maybe _two other people. Extroverts recharge by being with groups.
> 
> I'm an extrovert. I crave social activity, but it doesn't always mean I prefer to engage. Sometimes, I sparsely participate in conversation but I still feel that I'm relaxing and chillin'. I can't be alone for too long, it bothers me. I crave the presence of people.
> 
> So while I'm not SHY by any means, I don't always engage. I'm still very solidly extroverted. Intro/extroversion is a need, HOW we fulfill that need can vary substantially.


By this definition I would be an introvert :'D Or an ambivert to be precise. I need alone time and time with people the equal amount. Otherwise I snap.

Tho this might be an enneagram difference too? Eights are often a lot more "out there" than sixes.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> In that case, how is anybody supposed to tell whether someone is an introvert or extrovert? How can you tell if you're an introvert or extravert without using functions? Even if the MBTI's definition is more formally inline with psychology, the practical application is greatly diminished imo.


As @stiletto put it, it is about drawing and spending energy (Je, Ji, Pe, Pi). I, for example, get depressed and I feel down if a day goes by and I don't talk to someone. That doesn't make me a social butterfly. Introverts might not have this problem (and I envy them for this).
For example, ENTJ's might appear more introverted at first glance than, say ISFP. The latter might enjoy clubbing more than the first.


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## stiletto (Oct 26, 2013)

Noir said:


> As @_stiletto_ put it, it is about drawing and spending energ (Je, Ji, Pe, Pi). I, for example, get depressed and I feel down if a day goes by and I don't talk to someone. That doesn't make me a social butterfly. Introverts might not have this problem (and I envy them for this).
> For example, ENTJ's might appear more introverted at first glance than, say ISFP. The latter might enjoy clubbing more than the first.


That's very true. At first glance, my ISFP husband may seem like an E. He's a chatterbox, whereas I tend to say something only when it's important enough for me to make the effort. But when it comes down to "relaxing", my husband definitely prefers solitude and I always seek company.


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## lackofmops (Mar 13, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand it when people say "Introversion and extraversion have nothing to do with social skills or shyness". They use this mysterious "energy" term that has no practical application whatsoever. How can an extravert be shy? If they are, then they would prefer to be in their own company, right? Even if this was not the case, the overwhelming majority of people (I presume) have an intuitive understanding of introversion vs extraversion; which they define primarily on how easy they find it to socialise or how comfortable they feel with a load of strangers.


This guy. This guy gets it.



Straystuff said:


> I'm not sure if people realize shy extroverts are a thing and it might lead to many mistypes.
> 
> I'm a total awkward penguin in many social situations. I think my social anxiety comes from dom-Fe: I'm hyperaware of how people percieve me and if I say/do something wrong and people judge me for it I find it life-distroying. Especially when I was younger I was very sensitive and withdrawn 'cause I didn't want to get hurt (yey enneagram 6!). Not very stereotypical ENFJ behavior of me but that's how it was.
> 
> Does anyone else have experiences of this?


Oxymoron much?


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

lackofmops said:


> Oxymoron much?


Moron much 

It's really not for the reasons I stated in the posts before.

Also you are another Fi using Enneagram eight and I kind of figured you guys don't seem to get it.


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

I sort of wonder if I'm a shy extrovert. The reason why I think I'm an introvert is because of the recharging thing. One time I had an awesome time with awesome people and I still felt like I needed alone time. But the whole "group" concept confuses me. Can it be any group where you don't know anyone? Like for example a concert? If it's with people I know and get along well then I do feel ok within a group and fee happy and get a rush. I've never gotten a rush or felt happy while being alone so... idk if I'm a shy extrovert. I do feel like once I get past insecurities and paranoid thoughts (Fe-dom as well) and get talking to the person and I feel like they accept me I feel so happy to be around them. If I have successful conversations with people multiple times a day I feel happy (but that's also linked to social phobia and insecurity and low self esteem or confidence). It depends on the chemistry as well...so confusing...

I've never felt the need to be within a group, maybe accepted within one but not like I FEEL it, I crave it. I have craved alone time whilst in a group but never exactly the other way around...But I do agree that being alone depresses me.

I'm definitely SHY, without a doubt. I don't know if I'm a shy extrovert though... I have thought about it.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

Gossip Goat said:


> I sort of wonder if I'm a shy extrovert. The reason why I think I'm an introvert is because of the recharging thing. One time I had an awesome time with awesome people and I still felt like I needed alone time. But the whole "group" concept confuses me. Can it be any group where you don't know anyone? Like for example a concert? If it's with people I know and get along well then I do feel ok within a group and fee happy and get a rush. I've never gotten a rush or felt happy while being alone so... idk if I'm a shy extrovert. I do feel like once I get past insecurities and paranoid thoughts (Fe-dom as well) and get talking to the person and I feel like they accept me I feel so happy to be around them. If I have successful conversations with people multiple times a day I feel ok (but that's also linked to social phobia and insecurity and low self esteem or confidence). It depends on the chemistry though...so confusing...
> 
> I'm definitely SHY, without a doubt. I don't know if I'm a shy extrovert though... I have thought about it.


You sound like me  

I used to misype as an INFJ for a long time 'cause I thought shyness and getting energy from being alone doesn't work with extroversion. I'm definitely Fe-dom tho, aka an extrovert. So. Shy extroverts are definitely possible :')


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## idklol (Aug 20, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand it when people say "Introversion and extraversion have nothing to do with social skills or shyness". They use this mysterious "energy" term that has no practical application whatsoever. How can an extravert be shy? If they are, then they would prefer to be in their own company, right? Even if this was not the case, the overwhelming majority of people (I presume) have an intuitive understanding of introversion vs extraversion; which they define primarily on how easy they find it to socialise or how comfortable they feel with a load of strangers.


being shy has to do with fear, being introverted has to do with preference


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

Straystuff said:


> You sound like me
> 
> I used to misype as an INFJ for a long time 'cause I thought shyness and getting energy from being alone doesn't work with extroversion. I'm definitely Fe-dom tho, aka an extrovert. So. Shy extroverts are definitely possible :')


I was also mistyped as an INFJ, actually I don't know why i said Fe-dom. I don't know what my dom is, I type myself these days as ISFJ thus Si is supposed to be my dom but I just don't know...I do use Fe though and a lot of it.

I know of a fictional ESFJ, and I am very similar but...not quite.

I think my dependency on people's opinions (therefor lack of self confidence) and social phobia limit me to understand what I would be, and since MBTI is aimed at healthy individuals... the way I actually came to identify as ISFJ or at least confirm the SF was by researching what they would look in an unhealthy individual.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

Gossip Goat said:


> I was also mistyped as an INFJ, actually I don't know why i said Fe-dom. I don't know what my dom is, perhaps Si...I do use Fe though and a lot of it.


The difference between your dom and auxiliary is sometimes really hard to pinpoint 'cause you use both a lot. In some ways your auxiliary is almost easier to pinpoint 'cause you consciously use it whereas your dom function just kind of is there in the backround.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

idklol said:


> being shy has to do with fear, being introverted has to do with preference


Here's what I don't get: if the only difference between being shy and being introverted is fear vs preference, then why would someone PREFER what they FEAR? It makes no rational sense. A "shy extrovert" will either overcome their shyness, or become an introvert, surely.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Here's what I don't get: if the only difference between being shy and being introverted is fear vs preference, then why would someone PREFER what they FEAR? It makes no rational sense. A "shy extrovert" will either overcome their shyness, or become an introvert, surely.


Because extroversion and introversion in MBTI sense are not choises. They are static cognitive processes.


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## Innogen (Oct 22, 2014)

You know what I don't get? People thinking that introverts are automatically shy, and extroverts are automatically outgoing. Are introverts more likely to be shy than extroverts? Of course. But does that mean introvert = shy, period? No.


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## nO_d3N1AL (Apr 25, 2014)

Straystuff said:


> Because extroversion and introversion in MBTI sense are not choises. They are static cognitive processes.


Is "shyness" a choice? If anything, I believe people have more of a choice in their MBTI type than traits like shyness (which are typically seen as being negative or even a disorder in extreme cases). I understand the distinction between the definitions, but I can't work out how they can be unrelated. To me, it just doesn't make sense for someone to be shy and extroverted; or introverted and not shy. I'll try and relate from a different angle:

You say you're a "shy extrovert". Well, I could be a "non-shy introvert". By that, I mean that I'm usually comfortable revealing things about myself or interacting with people I know. I don't feel this need to censor myself or think too hard about what's appropriate to say - I just "do it". I'm not "afraid" of talking to people or social situations (I was EXTREMELY shy when I was younger perhaps, not so much now). But I've always been an introvert. However, more recently, I've been longing for more social interaction but I don't talk to people much or make attempts to meet people even though I'd like to do that, simply because I don't know where to start or how to go about it. Maybe that's a lack of information, or maybe lack of confidence.

Bottom line: when I was younger, I was more shy AND more private, introverted etc. Now I'm still introverted but no longer shy, but I desire more social interaction (which extroverts prefer). So the two seem to correlate, at least for me


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Straystuff said:


> Here you go ...


I don't think there's any question that Entropic is one of the most reliably _unreliable_ sources on Jung that we have here at PerC, and I suspect it's more likely you're a "confused introvert" than a "shy extravert."

Entropic posted that video just a couple weeks ago, passing along the same misinformation about Jung's view of E/I that I've corrected him about on at least one past occasion.

As the old saying goes, everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. You can agree or disagree about whether Jung was right or wrong about X, Y or Z aspects of personality, but on _some_ issues at least, the issue of _what Jung thought_ (rightly or wrongly) is more of a factual matter. And there's no question that Jung thought that what you might call _social introversion_ (including shyness) and what you might call _cognitive introversion_ went hand in hand — because he thought that, as described below, both had the same underlying cause.

Jung viewed extraversion/introversion as the most fundamental division underlying his types, and spent more of Psychological Types talking about the personality characteristics he thought extraverts tended to have in common and introverts tended to have in common than he spent talking about all eight of the functions put together.

Jung believed that the ultimate reason there were extraverts and introverts in the first place was that extraversion and introversion represented two competing evolutionary strategies, each successful in its own way. Here's how he described them:



Jung said:


> There are in nature two fundamentally different modes of adaptation which ensure the continued existence of the living organism. The one consists of a high rate of fertility, with low powers of defense and short duration of life for the single individual; the other consists in equipping the individual with numerous means of self-preservation plus a low fertility rate. This biological difference, it seems to me, is not merely analogous to, but the actual foundation of, our two psychological modes of adaptation. I must content myself with this broad hint. It is sufficient to note that the peculiar nature of the extravert constantly urges him to expend and propagate himself in every way, while the tendency of the introvert is to defend himself against all demands from outside, to conserve his energy by withdrawing it from objects, thereby consolidating his own position. Blake's intuition did not err when he described the two classes of men as "prolific" and "devouring." Just as, biologically, the two modes of adaptation work equally well and are successful in their own way, so too with the typical attitudes. The one achieves its end by a multiplicity of relationships, the other by a monopoly.


And the result of those evolutionary machinations was that, in Jung's words, introverts tend to be "reserved, ... rather shy people," with "a hesitant, reflective, retiring nature that keeps itself to itself, shrinks from objects, is always slightly on the defensive and prefers to hide behind mistrustful scrutiny"; while extraverts tend to be "open" and "sociable," with "an outgoing, candid, and accommodating nature that adapts easily to a given situation, quickly forms attachments, and ... will often venture forth with careless confidence into unknown situations."

And for Jung, the psychodynamic mechanism behind introversion involved a projection of negative unconscious contents by the introvert onto the people and things of the external world, which in turn caused the introvert to falsely perceive that those people and things were charged with negative energy (libido), which in turn caused the introvert to feel threatened by those people and things, and fear them, and mount a defense which took the form of, among other things, (1) avoidance, and (2) a process of "abstraction" by which the introvert reduced people and things to their abstract qualities, thereby (as Jung explained) "withdrawing libido from the object ... to prevent the object from gaining power over him."

So as Jung saw it, the cognitive turning-inward that "cognitive function" aficionados like to emphasize _and_ the fearful/defensive attitude toward other people that Jung also viewed as part of introversion were _both_ (and equally) second-order results of the introvert's projection of negative unconscious contents onto the people and things of the external world.

In the spoiler is a collection of quotes that should leave no doubt in anybody's mind that, as far as Jung was concerned, whether someone's an extravert or an introvert has quite a lot to do with whether they'll tend to be "shy" or "outgoing."


* *






Jung said:


> [Extraverts and introverts] are so different and present such a striking contrast that their existence becomes quite obvious even to the layman once it has been pointed out. Everyone knows those reserved, inscrutable, rather shy people who form the strongest possible contrast to the open, sociable, jovial, or at least friendly and approachable characters who are on good terms with everybody, or quarrel with everybody, but always relate to them in some way and in turn are affected by them.





Jung said:


> [The introvert] holds aloof from external happenings, does not join in, has a distinct dislike of society as soon as he finds himself among too many people. In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. ... He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. He is apt to appear awkward, often seeming inhibited, and it frequently happens that, by a certain brusqueness of manner, or by his glum unapproachability, or some kind of malapropism, he causes unwitting offence to people. His better qualities he keeps to himself, and generally does everything he can to dissemble them. He is easily mistrustful, self-willed, often suffers from inferiority feelings and for this reason is also envious. His apprehensiveness of the object is not due to fear, but to the fact that it seems to him negative, demanding, overpowering or even menacing. He therefore suspects all kinds of bad motives, has an everlasting fear of making a fool of himself, is usually very touchy and surrounds himself with a barbed wire entanglement so dense and impenetrable that finally he himself would rather do anything than sit behind it. ...
> 
> For him self-communings are a pleasure. His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best. He feels at home in his world, where the only changes are made by himself. His best work is done with his own resources, on his own initiative, and in his own way. ...
> 
> His relations with other people become warm only when safety is guaranteed, and when he can lay aside his defensive distrust. All too often he cannot, and consequently the number of friends and acquaintances is very restricted.





Jung said:


> The [introvert's] personality seems inhibited, absorbed or distracted, "sunk in thought," intellectually lopsided, or hypochondriacal. In every case there is only a meagre participation in external life and a distinct tendency to solitude and fear of other people, often compensated by a special love of animals or plants. ...
> 
> The [introvert's] sudden explosions [of emotion], alternating with defensiveness and periods of taciturnity, can give the personality such a bizarre appearance that such people become an enigma to everyone in their vicinity. Their absorption in themselves leaves them at a loss when presence of mind or swift action is demanded. Embarrassing situations often arise from which there seems no way out—one reason the more for shunning society. Moreover the occasional outbursts of affect play havoc with their relations to others, and, because of their embarrassment and helplessness, they feel incapable of retrieving the situation. This awkwardness in adapting leads to all sorts of unfortunate experiences which inevitably produce a feeling of inferiority or bitterness, and even of hatred that is readily directed at those who were the actual or supposed authors of their misfortunes. ... They have a peculiar emotional sensitivity, revealing itself to the outside world as a marked timidity and uneasiness in the face of emotional stimuli, and in all situations that might evoke them. This touchiness is directed primarily against the emotional conditions in their environment. All brusque expressions of opinion, emotional declarations, playing on the feelings, etc., are avoided from the start, prompted by the subject's fear of his own emotion, which in turn might start off a reverberating impression he might not be able to master. This sensitivity may easily develop over the years into melancholy, due to the feeling of being cut off from life.





Jung said:


> Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...
> 
> The disinclination to submit his own motives to critical examination is very pronounced. He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth. ...
> 
> The psychic life of this type of person is enacted, as it were, outside himself, in the environment. He lives in and through others; all self-communings give him the creeps. Dangers lurk there which are better drowned out by noise. If he should ever have a "complex," he finds refuge in the social whirl and allows himself to be assured several times a day that everything is in order. Provided he is not too much of a busybody, too pushing, and too superficial, he can be a distinctly useful member of the community.





Myers and Briggs, in turning Jung's theory into the MBTI typology, viewed E/I as multifaceted (as Jung had), including various elements normally associated with shyness and sociability. In Gifts Differing, Myers noted that introverts tend to be "subtle and inpenetrable, often taciturn and shy." She also said (again echoing Jung): "Intense and passionate, they bottle up their emotions and guard them carefully as high explosives."

The MBTI Manual is full of charts showing the results of various studies that have been done over the years that have found statistically significant correlations between the MBTI dimensions and other personality measurements. MBTI extraversion correlates positively with traits like "affiliation," "sociability," "social presence," "exhibition," "gregariousness," "expressed affection" and "talkativeness," while MBTI introversion correlates positively with traits like "controlled," "social introversion," "reserved," "shy," "defendance" and "infavoidance" (avoidance of embarrassment).

Whether you're looking at MBTI sources that focus primarily on the four dichotomies (and combinations thereof) or MBTI sources more focused on the "cognitive functions," the E/I descriptions generally include some elements of shyness and sociability in the mix (along with other characteristics). Keirsey's type test includes questions like, "Do you think of yourself as (a) an outgoing person or (b) a private person?", "At work do you tend to (a) be sociable with your colleagues or (b) keep more to yourself?", and "Are you inclined to be (a) easy to approach or (b) somewhat reserved?" And Lenore Thomson characterizes extraverts as "outgoing," and introverts as "reserved" and "private."

It's important to keep in mind, though, that when most people think of a "shy" person, I'd say they're substantially more likely to be thinking of somebody in a relatively small minority consisting of the _shyest_ 20% (or 10% or something) of the population, whereas _introverts_, as measured by the MBTI, make up around half the population, and it's generally thought — consistent with both Jung's and Myers' perspectives — that they include a relatively wide range of preference _strengths_, from mild introverts to strong introverts. (Jung, for what it's worth, thought more people were essentially in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted.)

So... depending on where somebody wants to draw the line in terms of who's a "shy" person, it could easily be the case that they wouldn't consider the majority of introverts "shy" — but that's not to say that most shy people probably aren't introverts, or that _mild_ introverts aren't significantly more likely to be _mildly_ shy/reserved/private than their mildly extraverted counterparts.

Another complicating factor when it comes to sociability is that _both_ E/I and T/F have a significant impact, on average and all other things being equal, on somebody's propensity to engage in social activity, with EFs being the most social, ITs the least, and ETs and IFs in between. (And as long as I'm rambling, I'd say male/female and S/N can also, each in its own way, have some influence on someone's social propensities, with the result that I'd be inclined to peg female ESFs as the likeliest social butterflies and male INTs — like me — as the likeliest MBTI candidates for hermithood.)

As a final note, there's a well-established fifth temperament dimension that isn't included in the Myers-Briggs typology and is often referred to as "neuroticism" (although it isn't a psychological disorder). The Big Five/SLOAN typology labels it Emotional Stability and refers to the two poles as Calm and Limbic. Being Limbic on that dimension tends to be associated with, among other things, anxiety/worry-proneness; emotional sensitivity/volatility; proneness to annoyance/irritation; self-consciousness; and (sometimes) depression. I consider myself Limbic, and I'd say the self-consciousness and anxiety-proneness that come with that make me more "shy" than I would be if I was the same degree of introverted but below-average in neuroticism.


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## Gossip Goat (Nov 19, 2013)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Here's what I don't get: if the only difference between being shy and being introverted is fear vs preference, then why would someone PREFER what they FEAR? It makes no rational sense. A "shy extrovert" will either overcome their shyness, or become an introvert, surely.


For me, if I am a shy extrovert, not sure but how I think of it is, perhaps wanting to be apart of a big group or be the center of attention but being to afraid of seeming like an idiot. The shyness holds you back from achieving it.


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## lackofmops (Mar 13, 2014)

Straystuff said:


> Moron much


OH
SNAP

You have just earned my respect for life.


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## idklol (Aug 20, 2014)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Is "shyness" a choice? If anything, I believe people have more of a choice in their MBTI type than traits like shyness (which are typically seen as being negative or even a disorder in extreme cases). I understand the distinction between the definitions, but I can't work out how they can be unrelated. To me, it just doesn't make sense for someone to be shy and extroverted; or introverted and not shy. I'll try and relate from a different angle:
> 
> You say you're a "shy extrovert". Well, I could be a "non-shy introvert". By that, I mean that I'm usually comfortable revealing things about myself or interacting with people I know. I don't feel this need to censor myself or think too hard about what's appropriate to say - I just "do it". I'm not "afraid" of talking to people or social situations (I was EXTREMELY shy when I was younger perhaps, not so much now). But I've always been an introvert. However, more recently, I've been longing for more social interaction but I don't talk to people much or make attempts to meet people even though I'd like to do that, simply because I don't know where to start or how to go about it. Maybe that's a lack of information, or maybe lack of confidence.
> 
> Bottom line: when I was younger, I was more shy AND more private, introverted etc. Now I'm still introverted but no longer shy, but I desire more social interaction (which extroverts prefer). So the two seem to correlate, at least for me


i think you have a point here, but i think the whole shy extrovert thing is more of a feelery thing because it's mostly caused from underlying insecurity. not saying thinkers can't be insecure because that would be typist of me, but i'm saying it's natural that a feeler would be more likely to take criticism personally or have a fear of rejection, which would cause them to shut themselves out from actually being their normal self, sometimes without even realizing it but just chilling in their own private hell. an introvert probably wouldn't mind that as much, from what i'd assume (not to be typist.)


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Shy extrovert here 
It makes a lot of sense. My whole life I've spent looking at groups of people going, "I really really want to talk to those people" but I was always terrified they wouldn't like me, they didn't want me talking to them, they'd humiliate me . . . I don't seem 'shy' with my friends but there's always a niggling fear in the back of my mind that these people don't want me around, that they're all secretly wondering when I'll go away, that the whole world is a giant Truman project and everyone is conspiring to pretend to accept me despite my true annoying awfulness))
Ok, I exaggerate)) But that's the thing that makes me shy) That, and the fear of saying the wrong thing. And honestly, it's probably caused by my extroverted feeling function. I am very sensitive to criticism and rejection, and the moments when I felt like I was being pushed away from people stayed with me for a long time. That, and I'm observant, I see other people make fools out of themselves, I think _I must do whatever it takes to stop that from happening to me_, naturally I end up receding. I'm super-attuned to the social tensions, etc. in a room and that sorta paralyses me.
Another problem is not knowing where I stand with someone. Like, ok, my friends are obviously my peers and I can talk casually to them, my parent's friends are obviously my elders and I should speak respectfully, with more distance, to them . . . what about people five, ten years older than me? And so on. I'm fine when I know where I stand, but if not I become shy and awkward.
I'm probably atypical but I still think like an extrovert and behave like an extrovert in situations where I'm comfortable.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

I determined my introversion base on functions, i think it is more accurate. I compared the differences between a ESJ and ISJ, and its very clear I am Si dom. therefore I must be ISFJ, rather than ESFJ.


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## Kyusaku (Mar 18, 2014)

Introversion picks a single element while extroversion is aware of the whole. Introversion has a narrower focus while extroversion a broader focus.

People that don't know about MBTI laugh at me when I tell them I'm an introvert. I'm a smooth talker, self assured, resilient. I see social dealings as purely utilitarian for the most part though, the emphasis isn't the same as an extroverted feeler. It is like a role play, a game, and I wouldn't mind "loosing", because my core is at a safe distance, hidden from sight.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

@reckful 


> Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts, and hence by a strong tendency to make a show of oneself. Accordingly, the extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion. Moral misgivings arise mainly when "other people know." His religious convictions are determined, so to speak, by majority vote. ...


How does being like this prevent shyness?Some parts of it could actually _cause_ it.


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## Noir (Jun 20, 2014)

lackofmops said:


> Oxymoron much?


I might be stupid, but I don't see the oxymoron. Shy extroverts exist, as I have bothered earlier and extroverts can be sensitive and withdrawn as children. What's more, a lot of people argue that extroversion in MBTI is merely meant to reveal the direction of the first function.


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## reckful (Jun 19, 2012)

Living dead said:


> @reckful
> 
> How does being like this prevent shyness?Some parts of it could actually _cause_ it.


If you say so. Jung, as you know if you read all those quotes, certainly associated shyness with introverts, and I wouldn't say the passage you've quoted has much of what I'd consider a "shy" flavor.

The extravert in that passage is all about _quantity over quality_ in the "cultivation of friends and acquaintances" department, and has "a strong tendency to make a show of himself."


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

reckful said:


> If you say so. Jung, as you know if you read all those quotes, certainly associated shyness with introverts, and I wouldn't say the passage you've quoted has much of what I'd consider a "shy" flavor.
> 
> The extravert in that passage is all about _quantity over quality_ in the "cultivation of friends and acquaintances" department, and has "a strong tendency to make a show of himself."


What I think is that Jung spoke of EXTREME introverts and extraverts to prove a point,his extravert has no introverted functions and his introvert no extraverted which is not possible in reality.

And I don't think you get shyness at all,at least not shyness everyone else is talking about here.Yes,that passage does not have a "shy" flavor but that does not mean a person that passage describes can't also be shy.The fact someone cares about image,wants attention and wants many friends does not mean they are not shy at the same time.For me,a shy person is someone who wants those things but has something blocking them from getting as much as they wish to have and they suffer because of it.If they don't suffer because of it and don't try to get it in some way then that person isn't the kind of shy we are talking about here.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

INTROVERTS DOESN'T NOT MEAN YOU ARE SHY. WE ARE ALL SHY ABOUT SOMETHINGS, REGARDLESS OF BEING INTROVERTED OR NOT. !

Extroverts can ignore their Introvert functions for sometime, where as Introvert has no choice of to express their extravated functions.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

Oswin said:


> Shy extrovert here
> It makes a lot of sense. My whole life I've spent looking at groups of people going, "I really really want to talk to those people" but I was always terrified they wouldn't like me, they didn't want me talking to them, they'd humiliate me . . . I don't seem 'shy' with my friends but there's always a niggling fear in the back of my mind that these people don't want me around, that they're all secretly wondering when I'll go away, that the whole world is a giant Truman project and everyone is conspiring to pretend to accept me despite my true annoying awfulness))
> Ok, I exaggerate)) But that's the thing that makes me shy) That, and the fear of saying the wrong thing. And honestly, it's probably caused by my extroverted feeling function. I am very sensitive to criticism and rejection, and the moments when I felt like I was being pushed away from people stayed with me for a long time. That, and I'm observant, I see other people make fools out of themselves, I think _I must do whatever it takes to stop that from happening to me_, naturally I end up receding. I'm super-attuned to the social tensions, etc. in a room and that sorta paralyses me.
> Another problem is not knowing where I stand with someone. Like, ok, my friends are obviously my peers and I can talk casually to them, my parent's friends are obviously my elders and I should speak respectfully, with more distance, to them . . . what about people five, ten years older than me? And so on. I'm fine when I know where I stand, but if not I become shy and awkward.
> I'm probably atypical but I still think like an extrovert and behave like an extrovert in situations where I'm comfortable.


Finally some peer support! 

I can relate, especially the last sentence you wrote is so true.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

reckful said:


> I suspect it's more likely you're a "confused introvert" than a "shy extravert."


Ok let's say this is true. It would make me a Ni dom since I use functions Fe, Ni, Se, Ti and I'm a feeler. However, I don't abstract enough to be an INFJ. Also, I'm way too emotional to be one. How does this work with your logic?


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

lackofmops said:


> OH
> SNAP
> 
> You have just earned my respect for life.


I've learned at a very young age that the only way to survive an argument with ENTJ is to counter with well-refined sass. My older brother is one of you guys so I've had a lot of practice


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

many people are willing to believe there is/are unicorns, the big man in the sky, Santa clause, big foots, but a shy extrovert? get outta here!


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

I've been lately thinking if I can be one of you guys. I definitely was much more extroverted when I was a kid and been choosing "breadth" instead of "depth". 

As much as I'm concerned with achieving results in the object world I don't voluntarily search for interaction with people. Though Te in itself isn't the most social function, so it's hardly surprising. Go figure.


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## Bassmasterzac (Jun 6, 2014)

As an extrovert, I'm not always a very talkative person. I'm fairly withdrawn and even shy sometimes (I don't even know why either). I've been mistaken as an introvert, but really, I'm not. I do seek stimulation in the outside world, it's like a drug to me (I have ADHD too). I also seek social interaction, but not to talk - to do. I also enjoy a little "me" tilling up everyone I know to get a little rowdy. I'd rather workout with my friends than by myself.me at the end of the day as well to unwind.

I don't like doing things alone, that's no fun. I'd rather go kayaking with a handful of friends to share the experience. I'd rather spend my evening around a bonfire ca

But the thing is, I'm rarely ever the talkative one. I'm the director getting everyone together and leading them to action.

I think extroverts find pleasure and energy in seeking stimulation while introverts find pleasure and energy avoiding it. Ever take an introvert out to a social gathering? They're like, "Ahhh, the sweet sound of silence! This is great!" Then they kick their feet up and drift off into their inner world.

By the way, I scored a 70 something on extroversion scale. Oh, and another exception, I tend to know a lot of people and have plenty of friends, but I tend to care more about my close friend group which fluctuates around 10.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> Here's what I don't get: if the only difference between being shy and being introverted is fear vs preference, then why would someone PREFER what they FEAR? It makes no rational sense. A "shy extrovert" will either overcome their shyness, or become an introvert, surely.


My friend is a shy extrovert. On the first day of class, he's initially cautious and observant, but not long after, he's making friends and laughing along with everyone else. He might not be super talkative at all times, but it's pretty obvious he likes being around others - that's how he recharges and relaxes. 

On the other hand, a confident introvert would have no problems speaking their mind, making eye contact, or socializing, when they need to. A lot of people seem to think bad social skills come with being introverted, but how many ENxx types alone have said they spend more time in their head, compared to their sensing counterparts? Or that they were huge dorks in high school?

In fact, thinking back to school, I'd assume classes are usually 50/50 in terms of I/E distribution, yet only a handful of students are really engaged at all times. It's far more common for a handful to alternate. A lot harder to tell in that setting, really, and I think stilleto's post on being around others, but not necessarily engaging at all times was most telling for me.


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## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

nO_d3N1AL said:


> I don't understand it when people say "Introversion and extraversion have nothing to do with social skills or shyness". They use this mysterious "energy" term that has no practical application whatsoever. How can an extravert be shy? If they are, then they would prefer to be in their own company, right? Even if this was not the case, the overwhelming majority of people (I presume) have an intuitive understanding of introversion vs extraversion; which they define primarily on how easy they find it to socialise or how comfortable they feel with a load of strangers.


Yo, I think you can be both a shy extrovert and an introvert, it just inspires different behaviour in people. I've been a shy extrovert for most of my life, granted I'm very ambiverted, but I tend to feel incredibly frightened if I feel alone in social situations. For example I dislike interacting with strangers one on one because I get incredibly anxious but am immediately more comfortable with the situation if there is more than one stranger present. My INFP friend on the other hand cannot talk to more than one stranger at a time or she'll freeze up. For years I couldn't talk to strangers without having an anxiety attack but I didn't become an introvert because you can't really chose to be one or the other. It's part of your type, you just develop it over time.


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## Pantali (Jan 31, 2015)

Also it's kinda upsetting that a support thread for shy extroverts has derailed by a discussion concerning our apparent non-existence D:


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## mangodelic psycho (Jan 12, 2015)

I have introverted friends with developed social skills who have no problem whatsoever with being in a social environmet with lots of strangers, ect. While I went throught a phase when I was really shy, mainly due to undeveloped socia skills. 
It all comes down to this, I think. Either you learn social skills, through practice mainly and maybe observation, and you are outgoing, or you don't and become shy. 
The difference in E/I is that an introvert would rather not be in a social situaton, even if they're good at it; it's just not as important to them. While for an extrovert it's vital, even if they'reawkward in it.
Well. Practice makes perfect. :happy:


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

Cryo said:


> I've been lately thinking if I can be one of you guys. I definitely was much more extroverted when I was a kid and been choosing "breadth" instead of "depth".
> 
> As much as I'm concerned with achieving results in the object world I don't voluntarily search for interaction with people. Though Te in itself isn't the most social function, so it's hardly surprising. Go figure.


That's actually really interesting. I don't see why Te -dom would need human interaction to fulfill their need for thinking -based external stimulation. I mean sure they could organize other people etc. which is pretty Te I guess but that's about it.


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