# What "causes" enneagram?



## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

What is the root cause as to why someone becomes one enneagram type over another? 

Is it nature? Is it nurture? If nurture, what sort of situations would cause one type to develop over another?


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

childofprodigy said:


> What is the root cause as to why someone becomes one enneagram type over another?
> 
> Is it nature? Is it nurture? If nurture, what sort of situations would cause one type to develop over another?


Hmm why is it always nature or nurture? Why can't it be both? ^^

*MY opinion:
*
People are born with predispositions towards being in a certain way. This is nature. Nobody is a "Tabula rasa". Now the family, other people and the conditions when growing up, situations encountered ( a lot of variables) play into either strengthening the predisposition or causing alternative adaptive structures to develop within the personality.

The MBTI is more on nature's side and the enneagram more nurture then nature imo. It isn't one or the other, but a combo of both.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

childofprodigy said:


> What is the root cause as to why someone becomes one enneagram type over another?
> 
> Is it nature? Is it nurture? If nurture, what sort of situations would cause one type to develop over another?


my opinion is that the best way of conceptualizing the enneagram epistemologically is as a fallible personality model. as a model, it exists as a high-level framework of output but necessarily cannot make a causal inference as to the source; it might be nature, nurture, some combination thereof, or something else entirely and our model would have no way of discriminating between these possibilities. people can and have developed a sophisticated set of theoretical ideas that further discriminate this question which describe complex interactions of nature and nurture, and which, when thought out carefully enough to be worth taking seriously, generally lead to conclusions like our high level personality constructs are "almost totally nature."


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

According to the book i'm just reading ("Het Neurogram" by Joost van der Leij - only obtainable in Dutch) the Enneagram would be nature - and nature only. Only the health levels and integration/desintegration would be influenced by our experiences. 

This book is saying that the Enneagram type is determined by the configuration of hormones and neurotransmitters. And this configuration is and stays the same from the beginning to your death (in case you don't get any severe brain injuries) according to the book. He also says that this is based on newish neuro-psychological studies... I haven't checked this. :wink:


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> This book is saying that the Enneagram type is determined by the configuration of hormones and neurotransmitters.


is it that miserable idea of hornevian styles, enneagram center, and outlook triad corresponding to DA, NE, and 5-HT respectively, or is it a more sophisticated argument about hormones and neurotransmitters?


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## timeless (Mar 20, 2010)

Probably the most classical answer to this question is rooted in the "spiritual" part of the psychospiritual system. There's this famous quote (not about enneagram): "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." From that angle, the enneagram is a coping mechanism for spiritual beings limited by a human form.


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## funcoolname (Sep 17, 2011)

This site gives "emotional origins" for each type if you click around: Introduction to Enneagram 

And this one give another version in a more positive, less Freudian light: Personality Types: Chilhood Scenarios for Enneatypes: Law of Three - Enneagram and Myers Briggs


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## PlushWitch (Oct 28, 2010)

aestrivex said:


> is it that miserable idea of hornevian styles, enneagram center, and outlook triad corresponding to DA, NE, and 5-HT respectively, or is it a more sophisticated argument about hormones and neurotransmitters?


van der Leij calls his approach the Neurogram because in his opinion his theory is too far away from the apporach according to Naranjo (which he learned). van der Leij based his writings on some research about the Big 5 and the way those Big 5 character traits are influenced by the configuration for hormones and neurotransmitters. As a side note: He doesn't like the Big 5 as a theory because it doesn't take into account all the connections and interactions between character traits.

I still haven't read past the introduction since the book arrived this afternoon (it's evening here). So maybe later more. :wink:


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> van der Leij calls his approach the Neurogram because in his opinion his theory is too far away from the apporach according to Naranjo (which he learned). van der Leij based his writings on some research about the Big 5 and the way those Big 5 character traits are influenced by the configuration for hormones and neurotransmitters. As a side note: He doesn't like the Big 5 as a theory because it doesn't take into account all the connections and interactions between character traits.
> 
> I still haven't read past the introduction since the book arrived this afternoon (it's evening here). So maybe later more. :wink:


okay, so clearly nothing to do with that garbage on EI's website. thanks.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

PlushWitch said:


> van der Leij based his writings on some research about the Big 5 and the way those Big 5 character traits are influenced by the configuration for hormones and neurotransmitters.


I'd be very interested to see the correlation of traits to neurotransmitters! It's an interest of mine.


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## antiant (Jul 4, 2010)

Head trauma to the brain, clearly.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Spades said:


> I'd be very interested to see the correlation of traits to neurotransmitters! It's an interest of mine.


 The Enneagram and Brain Chemistry


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

cyamitide said:


> The Enneagram and Brain Chemistry


This was a great read! It was what I was looking for, but now that I've read it, I disagree. It's a reasonable theory, but there is no research to back it up (or maybe there is, I'd like to see at least a couple studies).

It doesn't seem to work for me, as I would describe myself as Serotonin (high), Norepinepherine (medium), Dopamine (medium?) whereas for 8's it's predicted low, low, high. The wings and tritypes probably muddle these estimates. I'm curious why they chose norepinepherine, as it's similar to dopamine and epinepherine. I'm also curious how people of different neurotransmitter levels react differently to drugs (e.g. adderall (amphetamine)).

Lastly, I highly disagree that the instinctual variants are developed depending on your first two years of life. I think they have more to do with nature, or nurture on a larger scale (e.g. up until you're around 20).


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## hedwig (Dec 6, 2010)

timeless said:


> Probably the most classical answer to this question is rooted in the "spiritual" part of the psychospiritual system. There's this famous quote (not about enneagram): "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." From that angle, the enneagram is a coping mechanism for spiritual beings limited by a human form.


Thank god I wasn't the only one wondering this! roud:


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

cyamitide said:


> The Enneagram and Brain Chemistry


*headdesk*


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## darude11 (Jul 6, 2011)

I think both are genetically given. They are nature.
Even through... the people are always talking about ideal MBTI personality being XXXX (aka The Balanced One). And most are trying to get there. Soo... maybe the MBTI is half nature half nurture.
And Enneagram maybe too... If we are of course talking about part, which is on healthiness of type.

- sorry if there are any mitakes -


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

aestrivex said:


> *headdesk*


 Enneagram types correlate decently well with Big 5 scales which as many studies have shown have a basis in brain neurochemistry.

I hope you didn't hurt yourself too badly headdesking there.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

cyamitide said:


> Enneagram types correlate decently well with Big 5 scales


no they don't. what is your source?



> which as many studies have shown have a basis in brain neurochemistry.


no they don't. what is your source?


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

aestrivex said:


> no they don't. what is your source?


Enneagram types correlated with Big 5, OPQ, and Great8: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/SHLresearch.pdf



aestrivex said:


> no they don't. what is your source?


Use google and you'll find it.


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## aestrivex (Mar 7, 2011)

cyamitide said:


> Enneagram types correlated with Big 5, OPQ, and Great8: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/SHLresearch.pdf


okay, so there was a bad correlation study that relates a third party questionnaire to enneagram types and does a reasonably good job predicting enneagram types. "decently well" correlated with enneagram types, all right, fair enough, though i think the assessment measure is probably a bit suspect.



> Use google and you'll find it.


what is your source? the body of literature on the neuroscience personality is lengthy and i am fairly familiar with it and i know for certain that what i have read of it as a whole (mostly from two years ago) i make no sense of at all. quit wasting my time and source your claims.


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