# graduated with a dead-end bio degree, now what?



## dragthewaters

I graduated in May 2013 with a degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology from an Ivy League school. I had a pretty good GPA (3.4 overall with above-4.0 both semesters of senior year) and extensive research experience, including at world-famous labs. I majored in biology because I thought it was a useful degree and there was a high demand for STEM degrees in the job market. Somehow nobody bothered to tell me that my degree would be worthless without a Ph.D and even then it would be not worth the time and risk involved to try to get a tenured position. Naturally once I figured that out I decided against going to grad school. I'm also not cut out for medical school even if I wanted to be a doctor.

My second mistake (first mistake being my choice of major) was to try to bail on the field of biology with no experience in any other field. I looked for an education/nonprofit job for about three months with no luck. By the time I started applying to lab technician jobs, I was pretty desperate for employment so (third mistake) I accepted the first job offer that I got without even asking about salary until after I accepted.

I do enjoy my job -- there's opportunity to learn new things, even though there's no opportunity to advance promotion or salary-wise. However, I only make 24K a year, and that's in New York City. I don't actually think that's an unreasonable salary since I have a lot of downtime at work (while waiting for reactions to run and so forth), and despite living in the NYC area I don't need much money (I live in NJ with my fiance and roommates so my rent is super cheap, and in any case my fiance makes 80K a year). The only reason why it bothers me is feeling like I am a failure compared to the people from my graduating class. I'm pretty happy with my life the way it is but it is obviously not sustainable in the long-term.

So I guess my question is, where should I go from here? I'm looking for a career track with growth potential and a reasonable salary. I will absolutely not get a Ph.D or go to medical school, but apart from that, I would be ok with getting a master's degree as long as I know beyond a reasonable doubt that it will help me land a career. Depending on the circumstances, I would even be ok with going to optometry school or dental school (although I'm not sure how good I would be at dentistry given my lack of coordination).

I think I could only land a technical sort of job since it seems like (from my job search this summer) potential employers aren't enthusiastic about my people skills (I don't think I'm bad at dealing with people, but I'm shy and I guess socially awkward). Also, I will be open to leaving the NYC area once I leave this current job and get my driver's license, so that expands my options somewhat.

Anyway, so here are various options I've been considering.
*Learning coding/computer science on my own and becoming a software developer or something else in that field. I have already been learning Javascript on my own during my downtime at work and my goal is to be proficient in multiple coding languages and know the basics of data structures, algorithms, etc. by October 2014. My fiance works in this field and he says that you don't need a degree or anything as long as you know what you're doing, and also his connections might or might not help me in the job search. The problem is that I worry the market is becoming too saturated.

*Going back to school for a master's in something related to biology, but with better career prospects. For example, environmental engineering, public health, or something like that.

*Going to optometry or dental school.

*Becoming an electrician. I know that one sounds weird, especially considering I'm a female, but there is an increasing demand for electricians in the U.S. (according to the Internet) and it's a job that can take you anywhere and can't be outsourced overseas. However the apprenticeship takes 4 years so I'd really have to be positive it was going to go somewhere.

*Getting some type of government certification related to biology and doing something related to that (ie. health inspector, industrial equipment inspector, working for the EPA, etc.)

*Becoming an accountant...I don't know how possible that would be at this point, but it pays well and I think I'd be good at it.

Anyone have any advice on specific careers or more careers to recommend? Any bio majors who didn't go to grad school or med school want to share their experience? Also do you think my current salary will cause future potential employers to not take me seriously?


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## FlightsOfFancy

Pure sciences are not really tailored for jobs. They teach theory in the idea that you are doing pure science to further science, i.e. go on to PhD/Academia/Teach HS. I did sciences/maths, too.

At this point, you are prime ready for Grad school and perhaps moderately-skilled work in the pharm industry that will pay you less than what you anticipated. My suggestion is to go to Grad school for something lucrative and that utilizes your core (Bio-engineering?). Most importantly, some place that will stipend you. Then get out in 2 years and work in a much higher caliber work.


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## dragthewaters

FlightsOfFancy said:


> Pure sciences are not really tailored for jobs. They teach theory in the idea that you are doing pure science to further science, i.e. go on to PhD/Academia/Teach HS. I did sciences/maths, too.


Yeah...tell that to all the "guidance counselors" who flat-out lied to my face for years and years saying I could easily get a job with a bio degree...nope, I'm not bitter....



FlightsOfFancy said:


> At this point, you are prime ready for Grad school and perhaps moderately-skilled work in the pharm industry that will pay you less than what you anticipated. My suggestion is to go to Grad school for something lucrative and that utilizes your core (Bio-engineering?). Most importantly, some place that will stipend you. Then get out in 2 years and work in a much higher caliber work.


So you mean get a Ph.D or a Master's? The "not getting a Ph.D" thing is 100% inflexible. I'm not about to throw away 6-7 years of my life on something I don't even care about all that much.

Apart from that, do you know anything about transitioning from biology to biomedical or environmental engineering? Are there extra classes I would have to take? Unfortunately I didn't know biomedical engineering was even a thing until it was too late to change my major, or else I probably would have majored in it.


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## Ice_Queen

I know you don't want to go for a PhD, but are you sure you don't want to go to biomedical school and do research? It seems to me that we're really hurting for researchers. It's not like you have to get your masters. In these programs, you just go straight from what you have to a PhD in 4 years. I mean sure, you'd have to do another 4 years to do post doc work.... but if it were me, I would probably consider it. Where I live in Texas, we have biomedical schools that give you a stipend of $29,000/year as a baseline. And the cost of living here is cheap. You can then get various other scholarships/fellowships/assistantships/traineeship stipends on top of that.

Edit: Nevermind. I just saw that you posted you don't really care for bio, just after I posted my response.


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## dragthewaters

Ice_Queen said:


> I know you don't want to go for a PhD, but are you sure you don't want to go to biomedical school and do research? It seems to me that we're really hurting for researchers. It's not like you have to get your masters. In these programs, you just go straight from what you have to a PhD in 4 years. I mean sure, you'd have to do another 4 years to do post doc work.... but if it were me, I would probably consider it. Where I live in Texas, we have biomedical schools that give you a stipend of $29,000/year as a baseline. And the cost of living here is cheap. You can then get various other scholarships/fellowships/assistantships/traineeship stipends on top of that.


Let's put it this way: if my choice is between getting a Ph.D and being unemployed/underemployed forever, I will commit suicide. I don't even want to be working in science now, the only reason why I am is because I have no other options. I mean science is ok but it's just not worth it. That's why I've been learning how to code, because that utilizes the same cognitive skills that biology does but it actually pays.

There are already too many Ph.Ds relative to the amount of positions opening up in the field, both in industry and in academia, and the funding situation in the U.S. for research really sucks right now too. A researcher I used to work for left the U.S. and moved to Scotland a few months ago because the funding situation is so bad in this country...and this was a few months after his lab's research was featured in National Geographic. My current boss is a new professor and thus doesn't have tenure yet, and if he doesn't get tenure he will be fucked and have to restart his career from basically nothing in his 40s. Less than 10% of grants even get funded and you can't even submit the same grant to more than two institutions.

The entire system is deeply fucked on every level. Why would an intelligent and skilled person want to work at a job until they were 40 with a shitty salary, complete career uncertainty, and having to move all across the country or possibly the world just for employment? And you can forget about raising a family. There's a reason that, out of the 4 researchers I've worked for, only one was married (to another researcher) and none of them had kids.

I wish I knew all these things when I was 17, but unfortunately I only learned them when it was too late to change my major, because everyone lied to me. They were giving me information based on how stuff was in the 90s.

My question is, why is there all this whining about not enough people majoring in STEM if the science majors can't even land decent jobs?


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## FlightsOfFancy

thismustbetheplace said:


> Yeah...tell that to all the "guidance counselors" who flat-out lied to my face for years and years saying I could easily get a job with a bio degree...nope, I'm not bitter....
> 
> 
> 
> So you mean get a Ph.D or a Master's? The "not getting a Ph.D" thing is 100% inflexible. I'm not about to throw away 6-7 years of my life on something I don't even care about all that much.
> 
> Apart from that, do you know anything about transitioning from biology to biomedical or environmental engineering? Are there extra classes I would have to take? Unfortunately I didn't know biomedical engineering was even a thing until it was too late to change my major, or else I probably would have majored in it.


I don't mean PhD. I mean Master's, and you will incur more math prerequisites, depending of course on how math/engineering heavy your bio degree was. This varies, so I cannot give you much data on it conclusively. You will almost invariably need SOME prereqs; however, these can often be taken online and transferred in.

Oh, and they didn't LIE. You can find A JOB. Plenty of jobs will use your skill, but be ready for the HS-graduate that's doing the titrations with you to be making more money than you are because they have real-world experience. You can also find jobs with places that just ask for ANY degree; these places often prefer science graduates, as we're considered "smart."


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## dragthewaters

FlightsOfFancy said:


> I don't mean PhD. I mean Master's, and you will incur more math prerequisites, depending of course on how math/engineering heavy your bio degree was. This varies, so I cannot give you much data on it conclusively. You will almost invariably need SOME prereqs; however, these can often be taken online and transferred in.
> 
> Oh, and they didn't LIE. You can find A JOB. Plenty of jobs will use your skill, but be ready for the HS-graduate that's doing the titrations with you to be making more money than you are because they have real-world experience. You can also find jobs with places that just ask for ANY degree; these places often prefer science graduates, as we're considered "smart."


In my experience most places that ask for "any degree" don't want science graduates because they assume we're soulless robots. Also I've never heard of a lab tech who didn't have at least an associates' degree (and all the ones I've met had bachelor's degrees, often from good schools too).

They did lie because multiple career counselors told me I could work my way up the career from lab tech-type entry-level positions even without a Ph.D. Maybe that's the way it was 20 years ago. Another guidance counselor told me I would have no problem getting a good-paying job with the government, but it turns out all the government jobs in science require certifications (not that I'm averse to getting a certification but it's a time-consuming extra step I didn't know about) and 90% of those jobs are only available to people who already work for the government.

What do you think of me learning computer science and coding on my own and going into that field without a degree or anything? Will my bio degree (or current salary) hold me back in that field?

Honestly the reason why I didn't major in engineering in the first place is because I'm not that great at math. I don't feel very comfortable taking online courses either, since I know that those tend to be scams.


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## FlightsOfFancy

thismustbetheplace said:


> In my experience most places that ask for "any degree" don't want science graduates because they assume we're soulless robots. Also I've never heard of a lab tech who didn't have at least an associates' degree (and all the ones I've met had bachelor's degrees, often from good schools too).
> 
> They did lie because multiple career counselors told me I could work my way up the career from lab tech-type entry-level positions even without a Ph.D. Maybe that's the way it was 20 years ago. Another guidance counselor told me I would have no problem getting a good-paying job with the government, but it turns out all the government jobs in science require certifications (not that I'm averse to getting a certification but it's a time-consuming extra step I didn't know about) and 90% of those jobs are only available to people who already work for the government.
> 
> What do you think of me learning computer science and coding on my own and going into that field without a degree or anything? Will my bio degree (or current salary) hold me back in that field?
> 
> Honestly the reason why I didn't major in engineering in the first place is because I'm not that great at math. I don't feel very comfortable taking online courses either, since I know that those tend to be scams.


Math really is the make or break of lucrative careers. I was not good at it in middle school, which must've been to lack of interest because I somehow have a degree in it. 

If you look at lucrative u-grad degrees (and most Master's), they might as well be called the math-heavy degrees. It makes sense. Most people seek to avoid math, so those that are well-versed in applying it are paid more handsomely. This doesn't apply for very useful long-term degrees like law/Dr--to a larger extent anyway. 

Almost every place I've seen asks for a degree. Remember, comp sci is really converging nowadays with non-degree skill. This is a good and bad thing. The good thing is that if you're super at programming, you don't need a degree (this is rare). The bad thing is that since the former is rare, most places expect a degree now, kind of like the SAT. 

I HAVE seen quite lucrative positions offered to even non-degrees, but remember that the 2 years will make you an official while imbuing you with the same skillset you can learn (ideally) on your own. This is important; many who got dusted off in the dot-com boom didn't have degrees, so their skills were "moot". However, those with degrees were treated as people who had more experience. It really is up to how much chance you're willing to take long-term.


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## dragthewaters

FlightsOfFancy said:


> Math really is the make or break of lucrative careers. I was not good at it in middle school, which must've been to lack of interest because I somehow have a degree in it.
> 
> If you look at lucrative u-grad degrees (and most Master's), they might as well be called the math-heavy degrees. It makes sense. Most people seek to avoid math, so those that are well-versed in applying it are paid more handsomely. This doesn't apply for very useful long-term degrees like law/Dr--to a larger extent anyway.
> 
> Almost every place I've seen asks for a degree. Remember, comp sci is really converging nowadays with non-degree skill. This is a good and bad thing. The good thing is that if you're super at programming, you don't need a degree (this is rare). The bad thing is that since the former is rare, most places expect a degree now, kind of like the SAT.
> 
> I HAVE seen quite lucrative positions offered to even non-degrees, but remember that the 2 years will make you an official while imbuing you with the same skillset you can learn (ideally) on your own. This is important; many who got dusted off in the dot-com boom didn't have degrees, so their skills were "moot". However, those with degrees were treated as people who had more experience. It really is up to how much chance you're willing to take long-term.


In that case, would it be possible and/or worth it to get a masters' in comp sci without having a bachelor's in it? My fiance got into software development without having a degree in it (and he works for a Fortune 500 company, although I'm not sure how much luck was involved in him getting that job due to his boss's unconventionality), but he had a master's in electrical engineering and 6 years work experience. I have asked him if he thinks it would be worth it for me to get a master's in comp sci but he has said most people don't really care about it and it would be a waste of time, so I don't know. I do know most coding-related jobs have technical interviews which should assess how much skill you actually have.


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## FlightsOfFancy

thismustbetheplace said:


> In that case, would it be possible and/or worth it to get a masters' in comp sci without having a bachelor's in it? My fiance got into software development without having a degree in it (and he works for a Fortune 500 company, although I'm not sure how much luck was involved in him getting that job due to his boss's unconventionality), but he had a master's in electrical engineering and 6 years work experience. I have asked him if he thinks it would be worth it for me to get a master's in comp sci but he has said most people don't really care about it and it would be a waste of time, so I don't know. I do know most coding-related jobs have technical interviews which should assess how much skill you actually have.


1) Electrical Engineers often code quite a lot. If he is older than 30, he most likely was around for when Electrical Engineers made programs for microcontrollers (remote controls/cellphones). A lot still do. 
2) It is and isn't worthless. As I said, it depends on risk, from what I have researched. If you think about it, no one really cares about a degree. It's just supposed to state that you are SUPPOSED to have such and such knowledge. So, if you wind up not having that knowledge in an interview, I'd imagine you'd be asked to leave even if you graduated from Yale or MIT. 

However, to assume that it doesn't get you an interview to have it would be a bit ludicrous, given how many jobs actually list it as a must nowadays. If you are prodigious, it will do a lot. Though, I'd ask him more about it as I'm a current M.S. student and he may have more to offer you than any of us here, as he also will tell his own wife a lot more.


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## dragthewaters

FlightsOfFancy said:


> 1) Electrical Engineers often code quite a lot. If he is older than 30, he most likely was around for when Electrical Engineers made programs for microcontrollers (remote controls/cellphones). A lot still do.
> 2) It is and isn't worthless. As I said, it depends on risk, from what I have researched. If you think about it, no one really cares about a degree. It's just supposed to state that you are SUPPOSED to have such and such knowledge. So, if you wind up not having that knowledge in an interview, I'd imagine you'd be asked to leave even if you graduated from Yale or MIT.
> 
> However, to assume that it doesn't get you an interview to have it would be a bit ludicrous, given how many jobs actually list it as a must nowadays. If you are prodigious, it will do a lot. Though, I'd ask him more about it as I'm a current M.S. student and he may have more to offer you than any of us here, as he also will tell his own wife a lot more.


He did signal processing stuff. I'm not really sure what that is but when I asked him if it involved coding he said "sort of." Whatever that means. In any case, I'm sure it is more relevant to computer science than biology is.

I'm not saying it won't help me get an interview, I'm just saying the time and money commitment might not necessarily be worth it.


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## FlightsOfFancy

thismustbetheplace said:


> He did signal processing stuff. I'm not really sure what that is but when I asked him if it involved coding he said "sort of." Whatever that means. In any case, I'm sure it is more relevant to computer science than biology is.
> 
> I'm not saying it won't help me get an interview, I'm just saying the time and money commitment might not necessarily be worth it.


Ah signals processing is like in layman's terms getting frequencies to play nice over wires. That is the basis of how we are communicating right now; someone has got to make sure that our fiber optics don't have a lot of noisy signals (light flashes). It's very math heavy (in fact, from working with it on research, it's all math--tell him you need help with a Fourier transform and convolution ). 

Anyway, that's very math/logic heavy, so he'd have a leg up on you with something similarly math/logic heavy. Also, I'd not pay for the Master's either. I'm on scholarship for mine; you have a good GPA and are a woman (sorry if not PC), so you should not have issue finding similar. My GPA was only slightly higher--but not as focused.


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## g_w

thismustbetheplace said:


> I graduated in May 2013 with a degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology from an Ivy League school. I had a pretty good GPA (3.4 overall with above-4.0 both semesters of senior year) and extensive research experience, including at world-famous labs. I majored in biology because I thought it was a useful degree and there was a high demand for STEM degrees in the job market. Somehow nobody bothered to tell me that my degree would be worthless without a Ph.D and even then it would be not worth the time and risk involved to try to get a tenured position. Naturally once I figured that out I decided against going to grad school. I'm also not cut out for medical school even if I wanted to be a doctor.
> 
> My second mistake (first mistake being my choice of major) was to try to bail on the field of biology with no experience in any other field. I looked for an education/nonprofit job for about three months with no luck. By the time I started applying to lab technician jobs, I was pretty desperate for employment so (third mistake) I accepted the first job offer that I got without even asking about salary until after I accepted.
> 
> I do enjoy my job -- there's opportunity to learn new things, even though there's no opportunity to advance promotion or salary-wise. However, I only make 24K a year, and that's in New York City. I don't actually think that's an unreasonable salary since I have a lot of downtime at work (while waiting for reactions to run and so forth), and despite living in the NYC area I don't need much money (I live in NJ with my fiance and roommates so my rent is super cheap, and in any case my fiance makes 80K a year). The only reason why it bothers me is feeling like I am a failure compared to the people from my graduating class. I'm pretty happy with my life the way it is but it is obviously not sustainable in the long-term.
> 
> So I guess my question is, where should I go from here? I'm looking for a career track with growth potential and a reasonable salary. I will absolutely not get a Ph.D or go to medical school, but apart from that, I would be ok with getting a master's degree as long as I know beyond a reasonable doubt that it will help me land a career. Depending on the circumstances, I would even be ok with going to optometry school or dental school (although I'm not sure how good I would be at dentistry given my lack of coordination).
> 
> I think I could only land a technical sort of job since it seems like (from my job search this summer) potential employers aren't enthusiastic about my people skills (I don't think I'm bad at dealing with people, but I'm shy and I guess socially awkward). Also, I will be open to leaving the NYC area once I leave this current job and get my driver's license, so that expands my options somewhat.
> 
> Anyway, so here are various options I've been considering.
> *Learning coding/computer science on my own and becoming a software developer or something else in that field. I have already been learning Javascript on my own during my downtime at work and my goal is to be proficient in multiple coding languages and know the basics of data structures, algorithms, etc. by October 2014. My fiance works in this field and he says that you don't need a degree or anything as long as you know what you're doing, and also his connections might or might not help me in the job search. The problem is that I worry the market is becoming too saturated.
> 
> *Going back to school for a master's in something related to biology, but with better career prospects. For example, environmental engineering, public health, or something like that.
> 
> *Going to optometry or dental school.
> 
> *Becoming an electrician. I know that one sounds weird, especially considering I'm a female, but there is an increasing demand for electricians in the U.S. (according to the Internet) and it's a job that can take you anywhere and can't be outsourced overseas. However the apprenticeship takes 4 years so I'd really have to be positive it was going to go somewhere.
> 
> *Getting some type of government certification related to biology and doing something related to that (ie. health inspector, industrial equipment inspector, working for the EPA, etc.)
> 
> *Becoming an accountant...I don't know how possible that would be at this point, but it pays well and I think I'd be good at it.
> 
> Anyone have any advice on specific careers or more careers to recommend? Any bio majors who didn't go to grad school or med school want to share their experience? Also do you think my current salary will cause future potential employers to not take me seriously?


Of the choices you listed, electrician is a good bet.
If you want to leverage your degree, consider bioinformatics or public health (say, not the *molecular* end of cancer research, but the collecting/coordinating research data for longitudinal studies, Institutional Review Board type stuff)...now you mentioned that as a Masters' Degree, but with an Ivy League bio degree, you might get hired off the bat for general intellectual prowress and get them to pay for your Masters' a couple of classes at a time).

I know it's tough out there for STEM degrees after having been promised the moon...but the problem is one of *oversupply* relative to demand.

The other way is to network like hell and (not tenable for you given you are engaged to someone living in NYC, but more in general)
try to land a position in a non-trendy-place: (Maine, the White Lab Mouse capital of the world), Iowa (various USDA labs), Minneapolis (Cargill, plant genetics)...

Best wishes.


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## dragthewaters

g_w said:


> Of the choices you listed, electrician is a good bet.
> If you want to leverage your degree, consider bioinformatics or public health (say, not the *molecular* end of cancer research, but the collecting/coordinating research data for longitudinal studies, Institutional Review Board type stuff)...now you mentioned that as a Masters' Degree, but with an Ivy League bio degree, you might get hired off the bat for general intellectual prowress and get them to pay for your Masters' a couple of classes at a time).
> 
> I know it's tough out there for STEM degrees after having been promised the moon...but the problem is one of *oversupply* relative to demand.
> 
> The other way is to network like hell and (not tenable for you given you are engaged to someone living in NYC, but more in general)
> try to land a position in a non-trendy-place: (Maine, the White Lab Mouse capital of the world), Iowa (various USDA labs), Minneapolis (Cargill, plant genetics)...
> 
> Best wishes.


My main concerns with the electrician thing are a) not being taken seriously because I'm a woman, b) not being taken seriously because I'm "overqualified" and c) the job market not being as stable as the internet says it is. It's a 4 year commitment so I need to be certain about it.

It would be great if I could get a job in public health with just a bachelor's, but I know in my area it's not going to happen because I looked up job listings for it when I was unemployed. Maybe somewhere else in the country though. As for bioinformatics, I'm hoping that learning coding (I'm going to learn Python and Perl next after Javascript) and comp sci will help me with that even if it doesn't lead anywhere else. I'm not sure how well bioinformatics actually pays though. Some people say it's a great industry to get into, some people say it's not so great.

I don't mind moving outside of NYC when I quit this job (and my fiance plans to quit his job in a year or two) but the main problem right now is that I don't know how to drive yet. I only live in the NYC area because I grew up here and while I love NJ I really dislike how rich-people-centric the city is. I already know I'm going to have to jump ship from my neighborhood in a couple of years because I've seen multiple articles online proclaiming it to be "the new Bushwick."


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## g_w

thismustbetheplace said:


> My main concerns with the electrician thing are a) not being taken seriously because I'm a woman, b) not being taken seriously because I'm "overqualified" and c) the job market not being as stable as the internet says it is. It's a 4 year commitment so I need to be certain about it.
> 
> It would be great if I could get a job in public health with just a bachelor's, but I know in my area it's not going to happen because I looked up job listings for it when I was unemployed. Maybe somewhere else in the country though. As for bioinformatics, I'm hoping that learning coding (I'm going to learn Python and Perl next after Javascript) and comp sci will help me with that even if it doesn't lead anywhere else. I'm not sure how well bioinformatics actually pays though. Some people say it's a great industry to get into, some people say it's not so great.
> 
> I don't mind moving outside of NYC when I quit this job (and my fiance plans to quit his job in a year or two) but the main problem right now is that I don't know how to drive yet. I only live in the NYC area because I grew up here and while I love NJ I really dislike how rich-people-centric the city is. I already know I'm going to have to jump ship from my neighborhood in a couple of years because I've seen multiple articles online proclaiming it to be "the new Bushwick."


Cost of living is immeasurably less in the Midwest, if you can stand to be around people who are not among the anointed.


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## dragthewaters

g_w said:


> Cost of living is immeasurably less in the Midwest, if you can stand to be around people who are not among the anointed.


I was thinking more the Pacific Northwest. Not sure anyone would want to be friends with me out in flyover country.


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## Jet Black

The Army is looking for some people...


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## Hypaspist

thismustbetheplace said:


> The problem is that I worry the market is becoming too saturated.
> 
> *Going back to school for a master's in something related to biology, but with better career prospects. For example, environmental engineering, public health, or something like that.
> 
> *Getting some type of government certification related to biology and doing something related to that (ie. health inspector, industrial equipment inspector, working for the EPA, etc.)
> 
> *Becoming an accountant...I don't know how possible that would be at this point, but it pays well and I think I'd be good at it.
> 
> Anyone have any advice on specific careers or more careers to recommend? Any bio majors who didn't go to grad school or med school want to share their experience? Also do you think my current salary will cause future potential employers to not take me seriously?


First of all, your degree is NOT worthless. I used to work at a computer firm which had a department dealing with software related to biology, specifically blood on a cellular level. To be honest, only a small percentage went crazy far in computers, and they wound up being network admins or project managers. The highest positions in the firm were held by more people without computer degrees than with. A degree from a good school will get you far with jobs in general, unless it's a medical position. Those who say you need a degree in the field that you'll be going to be working in either have a distorted, old, or false view of the world. 

Out of the options, the one with you going back to school sounds like the best bet. The only reason people were hired at the computer firm was because they had experience, and that's the nature of the tech industry. If you don't have experience, you'll see the door pretty quickly, and overall, it is quite saturated. You'd be making a healthy living in environmental engineering, or a similar job. 

I may pursue a degree not in biology, but another hard science, and do not care about what the "experts" say. People who are make six figure salaries and have a pretty secure job say it's about having a degree more than what the degree is in, and people who make six figure salaries are making more than the "expert" sitting at home writing a blog. STEM is in demand, that is where the job market will be shifting in the future, so you'll be just fine down the road.


----------



## dragthewaters

Jet Black said:


> The Army is looking for some people...
> 
> View attachment 86040


Even if I wasn't opposed to war, I have been involuntarily hospitalized for being suicidal, so they wouldn't take me. Also considering I already have no self-esteem (which is probably a lot of what got me into this mess in the first place) I find it kind of insulting that you think all I'm worth is as cannon fodder.


----------



## dragthewaters

Naukowiec said:


> First of all, your degree is NOT worthless. I used to work at a computer firm which had a department dealing with software related to biology, specifically blood on a cellular level. To be honest, only a small percentage went crazy far in computers, and they wound up being network admins or project managers. The highest positions in the firm were held by more people without computer degrees than with. A degree from a good school will get you far with jobs in general, unless it's a medical position. Those who say you need a degree in the field that you'll be going to be working in either have a distorted, old, or false view of the world.
> 
> Out of the options, the one with you going back to school sounds like the best bet. The only reason people were hired at the computer firm was because they had experience, and that's the nature of the tech industry. If you don't have experience, you'll see the door pretty quickly, and overall, it is quite saturated. You'd be making a healthy living in environmental engineering, or a similar job.
> 
> I may pursue a degree not in biology, but another hard science, and do not care about what the "experts" say. People who are make six figure salaries and have a pretty secure job say it's about having a degree more than what the degree is in, and people who make six figure salaries are making more than the "expert" sitting at home writing a blog. STEM is in demand, that is where the job market will be shifting in the future, so you'll be just fine down the road.


I sure hope so. Do you think I should start looking for a better job now with my current degree and experience, or wait until I know more things (like coding) or go back to school for a master's?

The thing is, you'd think science would be in demand, but with the economy in the toilet, there isn't as much funding as there used to be. It's very interesting in that there's a need for this field to expand but the market dictates it must stagnate.


----------



## Hypaspist

thismustbetheplace said:


> I sure hope so. Do you think I should start looking for a better job now with my current degree and experience, or wait until I know more things (like coding) or go back to school for a master's?
> 
> The thing is, you'd think science would be in demand, but with the economy in the toilet, there isn't as much funding as there used to be. It's very interesting in that there's a need for this field to expand but the market dictates it must stagnate.


There are some companies out there that will take you on in an entry level position which may pay more than you're making now, and allow you to go back to school for something related to what the company does. That's always an option if you find a company that offers such an option. I'm not in a position to say what would be _best_ for you in your situation, education is a pretty expensive proposition. In my experience though, I saw people at my workplace with masters in everything from finance to psychology, even aerospace engineers. 

The market is flooded with people looking for the path of least resistance, and apparently the two paths in the mainstream consist of computer sciences and business. There are private companies independent of what the market "wants" that are still doing well in the STEM fields. The market is generally leaving the physical jobs and heading towards STEM and computer fields, and I agree with your statement, the computer sciences are in fact woefully over saturated. If you did have a masters, and I'm not saying that it would be easy, you'd be in some pretty good company and a group that would get high paying jobs regardless of field based on your education and skill level.

I've also gone through the job crisis several times (heck, still am) and have been screwed over at so many junctions that I know exactly where you're coming from.


----------



## Jet Black

thismustbetheplace said:


> Even if I wasn't opposed to war, I have been involuntarily hospitalized for being suicidal, so they wouldn't take me. Also considering I already have no self-esteem (which is probably a lot of what got me into this mess in the first place) I find it kind of insulting that you think all I'm worth is as cannon fodder.


A B61-12 Nuclear Warhead can cost around $28 million. Never underestimate cannon fodder. 

But, I think that a masters may be your best bet. Have you looked at making protein assays for a living? I know some bio majors that went into doing that and they seem pretty happy... don't know how much they get paid though. Also, PA school, not med school.


----------



## g_w

thismustbetheplace said:


> I was thinking more the Pacific Northwest. Not sure anyone would want to be friends with me out in flyover country.


Calling it "flyover country" is one of the ways to not make friends there. :wink:


----------



## g_w

Jet Black said:


> A B61-12 Nuclear Warhead can cost around $28 million. Never underestimate cannon fodder.
> 
> But, I think that a masters may be your best bet. Have you looked at making protein assays for a living? I know some bio majors that went into doing that and they seem pretty happy... don't know how much they get paid though. Also, PA school, not med school.


Ah, the B-61, good old "dial-a-yield"...it costs $28 million but can do many billions worth of damage in three shakes of a lamb's tail...


----------



## associative

thismustbetheplace said:


> Anyone have any advice on specific careers or more careers to recommend? Any bio majors who didn't go to grad school or med school want to share their experience? Also do you think my current salary will cause future potential employers to not take me seriously?


When I was doing my Biochem degree my ambition was to work in the Pharma or Cosmetics industries.
Pharma is doing badly at the moment, but cosmetics continues on the up-and-up, with new start-ups entering the market all the time. I know that the north-east US is a hotbed for that kind of business.

I assume you have signed up to all the relevant employment agencies. These are becoming increasingly specialist, with a number focusing on scientific/technical recruitment.

And you are prepared to move. That is good. Science is a global profession.

Another thing worth considering is work that is not necessarily scientific (you were dead-on with accountancy). Employers like science grads because they have the ability to think logically and methodically, they understand that skill/expertise is a tool that can be picked up and used as necessary. Cast your net wide. One of the ironies of being in a scientist in the UK, is that many of the best maths/physics graduates are hoovered up by City of London corporations offering salaries 3 or 4 times that in research in order to improve their share-trading algorithms, so some of the best potential scientists don't go into science.

And why would your current salary be the business of a future employer?

_EDIT: _Oh yeah, food manufacturing and brewing - they always need development and QA staff.
I saw a massive Anheuser-Busch brewery on the way out of Newark a couple of years ago.


----------



## dragthewaters

associative said:


> When I was doing my Biochem degree my ambition was to work in the Pharma or Cosmetics industries.
> Pharma is doing badly at the moment, but cosmetics continues on the up-and-up, with new start-ups entering the market all the time. I know that the north-east US is a hotbed for that kind of business.
> 
> I assume you have signed up to all the relevant employment agencies. These are becoming increasingly specialist, with a number focusing on scientific/technical recruitment.
> 
> And you are prepared to move. That is good. Science is a global profession.
> 
> Another thing worth considering is work that is not necessarily scientific (you were dead-on with accountancy). Employers like science grads because they have the ability to think logically and methodically, they understand that skill/expertise is a tool that can be picked up and used as necessary. Cast your net wide. One of the ironies of being in a scientist in the UK, is that many of the best maths/physics graduates are hoovered up by City of London corporations offering salaries 3 or 4 times that in research in order to improve their share-trading algorithms, so some of the best potential scientists don't go into science.
> 
> And why would your current salary be the business of a future employer?
> 
> _EDIT: _Oh yeah, food manufacturing and brewing - they always need development and QA staff.
> I saw a massive Anheuser-Busch brewery on the way out of Newark a couple of years ago.


I think the cosmetics and manufacturing industries usually want chem people.

To be honest I didn't even know there were employment agencies for bio-related jobs. I assumed the demand was so low that there wouldn't be any.

I'm prepared to move within the contiguous U.S.

Most potential employers ask about your previous salary to determine how much they're going to pay you, at least in the U.S.


----------



## associative

I've inserted my replies.



thismustbetheplace said:


> I think the cosmetics and manufacturing industries usually want chem people.
> *
> I wouldn't limit yourself. It takes all sorts.
> I assume you have some chemistry - necessary to back-up your** bioscience understanding?
> My impression of bioscience in the US is correct is it not: biochem, genetics, microbiology, physiology, pharmacology that kind of thing? The chemistry you learn here will take you as far as you need to go, other stuff you would have to learn on the job anyway.
> There is a big area of manufacturing QA (foods, cosmetics, all sorts of other industries) looking at bacterial contamination. This is monitored by in-house or contract-lab microbiologists.
> Cosmetics R&D: Skin, hair, anti-perspirants, personal hygiene - all have a bio-focus (with some chemistry as well). You may find the consumer testing/sensory science part more interesting - you will still need a science background for this.
> Also safety and environmental.
> *
> To be honest I didn't even know there were employment agencies for bio-related jobs. I assumed the demand was so low that there wouldn't be any.
> *
> Cast your net wider.*
> Science Jobs With Adecco USA | Science Recruitment Services *for example. Sign up, friend them on linkedin etc.
> Network, network, network.
> *
> I'm prepared to move within the contiguous U.S.
> 
> *Happy days.*
> 
> Most potential employers ask about your previous salary to determine how much they're going to pay you, at least in the U.S.
> 
> *Jeez, that is mercenary. I can imagine the temptation to exaggerate *:wink:*. I'd definitely include any shift-allowance, overtime and bonus in your estimate, and also if you are part time, pro-rata it up to the full-time wage.*


Random thoughts: Make your recruitment agencies sweat. If they are any good they'll give you top-quality advice on Resume-writing, applications processes and interview technique. Maybe ask them about your trouble with pay etc.

There are plenty of opportunities for bioscience in the medicine - clinical biochemistry, hematology, histology - check out careers at your local hospitals (I very nearly ended up as a clinical biochemist). Wider? What about radiology or other medical practitioner-type professions?

This job is your style of thing - obviously they are looking for a chemist rather than bioscientist - but you'll notice that you have a BS plus experience - for a similar role. 
R&D Skin Care Chemist Job in Nanuet, NY - Adecco
You don't need to be a perfect fit. HR gimps like to write moon-on-a-stick requirements in job advertisements. Then go on the internet whinging about a skills shortage. If they ask for 5 years experience and you have 3 - _go for it_. If you are asked about it in an interview, play up how your experience was very high quality. :tongue:

Finally - you are being held back by your shyness. Realize you are a high-quality candidate for a wide-variety of positions _and go for it.
_
Best of luck.


----------



## Thalassa

Practical associates or certification in some thing vaguely related to biology.....unless you want to go to grad school.


----------



## associative

thismustbetheplace said:


> I think the cosmetics and manufacturing industries usually want chem people.
> 
> To be honest I didn't even know there were employment agencies for bio-related jobs. I assumed the demand was so low that there wouldn't be any.
> 
> I'm prepared to move within the contiguous U.S.
> 
> Most potential employers ask about your previous salary to determine how much they're going to pay you, at least in the U.S.


Found this one as well:

Bioanalytical Associate Jobs in Westchester, New York

17-19 bucks an hour. Not bad that.


----------



## dragthewaters

associative said:


> Found this one as well:
> 
> Bioanalytical Associate Jobs in Westchester, New York
> 
> 17-19 bucks an hour. Not bad that.


I could do that one now (if it wasn't in Westchester) but it still suffers from the problem of being something of a dead-end job. Also I probably could have gotten a job making up to $20/hr with my current experience, but I didn't have enough confidence that something else would come up if I turned down this job offer.

I have taken general chemistry and organic chemistry in college, but I wasn't very good at it. I really sucked at organic chemistry. I also don't have a microbiology background. My background is in molecular and cellular biology.

I don't know, the more responses I get on this thread, the more convinced I get that my career really has no future. Even if I had a chance to have a decent career when I first graduated, I think I fucked it up by settling for my current job. Even if I leave this job after only a year, companies aren't going to want me. They're going to want the new graduates.


----------



## angularvelocity

Some of the highest funding from the NIH is in the sciences. Off the top of my head, the highest grants went to neuroscience, genetics, topics geared towards cardiovascular health, and I believe biomedical research (robotics that help veterans).

I would be completely against going to get a Master's unless it's free. Most Master's programs, even for the sciences, seem to charge $30,000-$50,000 a year without living costs included. The trick I heard is to apply for a Ph.D program, get accepted, do the coursework for the first two years and then leave. The Ph.D program is free, you get paid $30,000 a year, and after those first two years you get a Master's degree, so instead of paying $100k+ for a Master's, you get paid $60,000 and get the same degree. Everyone I've spoken to at the doctoral level (on the administration side) told me a Master's degree is a money generating degree for the university. 

To be honest, it sounds like you have a great application for entering further education and it's just whether or not you want to pursue it. I don't think it is as dead-end as you believe it us. Unfortunately, the whole idea of getting grants is that you have to tailor your research to what is trending. You lose the independence of selecting what your interest is in the entire process (a lot of the time). Although you were right about it being hard as fuck to get grants with low acceptance rates.

For jobs - Where have you been job searching? Do you check hospitals? They have laboratory positions where they need bio people. The last two hospitals I worked at had extensive positions for individuals with bio degrees. I would definitely check some of the hospitals around you, Sutter, Kaiser, Kindred, etc. Have you already checked county, state and federal jobs (usajobs.gov) in your location for positions in biology or something related?

Best of luck.


----------



## dragthewaters

angularvelocity said:


> Some of the highest funding from the NIH is in the sciences. Off the top of my head, the highest grants went to neuroscience, genetics, topics geared towards cardiovascular health, and I believe biomedical research (robotics that help veterans).
> 
> I would be completely against going to get a Master's unless it's free. Most Master's programs, even for the sciences, seem to charge $30,000-$50,000 a year without living costs included. The trick I heard is to apply for a Ph.D program, get accepted, do the coursework for the first two years and then leave. The Ph.D program is free, you get paid $30,000 a year, and after those first two years you get a Master's degree, so instead of paying $100k+ for a Master's, you get paid $60,000 and get the same degree. Everyone I've spoken to at the doctoral level (on the administration side) told me a Master's degree is a money generating degree for the university.
> 
> To be honest, it sounds like you have a great application for entering further education and it's just whether or not you want to pursue it. I don't think it is as dead-end as you believe it us. Unfortunately, the whole idea of getting grants is that you have to tailor your research to what is trending. You lose the independence of selecting what your interest is in the entire process (a lot of the time). Although you were right about it being hard as fuck to get grants with low acceptance rates.
> 
> For jobs - Where have you been job searching? Do you check hospitals? They have laboratory positions where they need bio people. The last two hospitals I worked at had extensive positions for individuals with bio degrees. I would definitely check some of the hospitals around you, Sutter, Kaiser, Kindred, etc. Have you already checked county, state and federal jobs (usajobs.gov) in your location for positions in biology or something related?
> 
> Best of luck.


Do you think people would look down on me if I got my Masters' degree that way? Like would they see me as a "failure" because I dropped out of getting my Ph.D? And would I learn the same stuff that I would learn otherwise?

If I did get a master's degree it would be at a local university or state university where the tuition is only about $5K/year. Going to an "elite" college didn't do shit for me this time around so I'm avoiding that scam in the future. I've also heard that a master's is really only a part-time degree and you can usually work while getting one in any case.

Usually you have to have a medical technologist or medical laboratory technician certification to work in a hospital. It was listed as a requirement on almost all of the jobs I saw when I was looking. Considering it's not that much of a pay increase and I don't particularly like lab work anyway, I don't think it's worth it to study for and take the exam.

USAjobs didn't have anything when I looked, and anything they did have required additional certifications. It's really hard to get a government job because 90% of the jobs are reserved for people who already work for the government. A lot of times they require certifications and then the certification exams don't even get scheduled, and when they do get scheduled they get postponed or the results get thrown out because too many people cheated on the test (this happened to my mom once when she had to take a civil service exam). I don't mind studying for and taking a certification exam but I don't want to waste time and money on a career path only for it to turn out to be another dead end. I need to be certain that things are going to pan out before investing in them.


----------



## Zombie Devil Duckie

> I'm pretty happy with my life the way it is



Life is a journey, not a destination. Find something you enjoy and don't worry about what others "think" of you. To hell with them... you have your life and they have theirs. 



> I need to be certain that things are going to pan out before investing in them.


You'll be waiting for a very long time if you wait for the perfect moment. Things happen, life changes suddenly, but this doesn't mean that you can't adjust when it happens. 

Figure out what is important to you in life and go in that direction. 

I don't know if this fortune-cookie advice will help you, but if I could send a message back in time it's what I would have told myself.



-ZDD


----------



## geekofalltrades

thismustbetheplace said:


> I don't know, the more responses I get on this thread, the more convinced I get that my career really has no future. Even if I had a chance to have a decent career when I first graduated, I think I fucked it up by settling for my current job. Even if I leave this job after only a year, companies aren't going to want me. They're going to want the new graduates.


I don't think most companies would take a new grad over a recent grad with a year of experience, all other things being equal.

You and I are facing some similar issues. I got my degree in Biotechnology and wasn't particularly enthused with it; I figured out about halfway through college that computer science would have been a better fit for me, but sort of got stuck in the biotech program. I compromised by specializing in Bioinformatics, which has some light computer science elements, and taking a lot of computer science electives.

Then I graduated and worked at my university in a bioinformatic programmer/analyst position for two years. That ended in August, and now I'm looking for new work. I'm also considering getting a Master's in computer science.

Coding is definitely a skill you can teach yourself, with patience. I think I read that you're learning Javascript, then looking at either Perl or Python. While I'm a heavy Perl user myself, and don't know a lick of Python, I think Python is actually the language I would recommend. A whole lot of people use Python, and it's got a pretty great reputation.

Something to note - and this is something that I've mostly been told by other people, not experience for myself - is that a lot of the really big tech companies (here in the Seattle area where I am, that's firms like Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Boeing) snap up a whole lot of recent graduates with science degrees, even if they aren't necessarily tech-related. That builds on something I was reading earlier in this thread: people with science degrees are perceived as smart, and are valued for their ability to think logically and coherently. I'm on a shortlist right now for an interview at Amazon working on the Kindle - even though my degree is in Biotech.

I struggle with the "my career has no future" thing, too. Honestly, I think the future is bright enough - it's just that there's a whole lot of really hard extrovert-type work in the way that I would really rather not have to do. A couple nights since I started searching, I've lain in bed wondering if I could just die and not have to deal with any of this anymore. May the wind be always at your back.


----------



## dragthewaters

geekofalltrades said:


> I don't think most companies would take a new grad over a recent grad with a year of experience, all other things being equal.


Even if the year of experience wasn't that great? (I mean, I do have the opportunity to do interesting things in my job, like learn how to use an electron microscope and do some crystallography stuff, but currently I haven't been doing much of anything really because we're not in the phase of the experiment yet where that has to come into play...and as I mentioned I have a lot of downtime at work, some days more than others. A lot of it right now is just repetitive work like setting up reactions, running gels, etc.)



geekofalltrades said:


> Coding is definitely a skill you can teach yourself, with patience. I think I read that you're learning Javascript, then looking at either Perl or Python. While I'm a heavy Perl user myself, and don't know a lick of Python, I think Python is actually the language I would recommend. A whole lot of people use Python, and it's got a pretty great reputation.


Well I was all excited about that until people on this thread told me that nobody would care unless I got a Masters in computer science...at least you got some computer science classes in before you graduated. Now I don't know if it's even worth pursuing.



geekofalltrades said:


> Something to note - and this is something that I've mostly been told by other people, not experience for myself - is that a lot of the really big tech companies (here in the Seattle area where I am, that's firms like Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Boeing) snap up a whole lot of recent graduates with science degrees, even if they aren't necessarily tech-related. That builds on something I was reading earlier in this thread: people with science degrees are perceived as smart, and are valued for their ability to think logically and coherently. I'm on a shortlist right now for an interview at Amazon working on the Kindle - even though my degree is in Biotech.


Interesting, but I'm sure none of those companies would want anything to do with me. I feel like accepting this job has kind of boxed me into a corner in that people will think I'm not worth anything because of my low salary. Also I've never felt that others have perceived me as smart because of my science degree (in fact I've felt like it held me back because potential employers assumed I was a soulless robot who could never be good at anything but science); I was only perceived as smart because of the college I went to, and I think when I was looking for a job most people didn't even care about that.

Good luck in your job search  It seems like you will end up fine.


----------



## geekofalltrades

@thismustbetheplace I think most of the concerns you just raised are going to come down to marketing yourself effectively. This is that nasty extrovert-stuff-I-really-rather-wouldn't-do that I mentioned. You'll need to really learn to play up the experience you've gained in your current job. If you teach yourself to code, it'll be the same thing: always push and advertise that you know the stuff really well. Stress that you taught it to yourself; that you were really enthusiastically interested in learning to code, so you took the initiative, found educational materials, and built and stuck to your own educational plan gag vomit I really hate marketing-speak. It'll really help to have tangible projects that you can show off, too. I built a videogame level back in 2009 and I'm pimping the hell out of it on my LinkedIn profile right now.

There are people you can work with to help you build those self-marketing skills, too. They're skills that a lot of otherwise really competent people lack. I worked with a guy at a group called Career Horizons, which is local here in Seattle, but I'm sure you could find a similar group near where you live. It feels fake and terrible when you first start doing it, but you sort of just have to recognize that it's all really overblown, and people generally expect it to be really overblown, and it's sort of just what everyone has to do to get ahead in the job environment.

It ain't easy. I just had an informational interview over the phone with a guy my dad knows who works at Amazon, just to do general career research, ask him about the company, the interview process, etc. Now I'm having another I'd-rather-just-die phase.


----------



## Eudaimonia

My sister was an electrician for a while. Nothing weird about that. Only she was saying that you really have to put up with being shocked every day. She switched to Radiation Technician. It was less stressful for her.


----------



## dragthewaters

geekofalltrades said:


> @_thismustbetheplace_ I think most of the concerns you just raised are going to come down to marketing yourself effectively. This is that nasty extrovert-stuff-I-really-rather-wouldn't-do that I mentioned. You'll need to really learn to play up the experience you've gained in your current job. If you teach yourself to code, it'll be the same thing: always push and advertise that you know the stuff really well. Stress that you taught it to yourself; that you were really enthusiastically interested in learning to code, so you took the initiative, found educational materials, and built and stuck to your own educational plan. It'll really help to have tangible projects that you can show off, too. I built a videogame level back in 2009 and I'm pimping the hell out of it on my LinkedIn profile right now.


I know that's what you're supposed to do, but it's not so much that it feels fake to me as that it feels delusional. I don't want people to think I'm some insane person who thinks I'm so great when it's obvious to everyone out there that I suck. If I didn't suck I'd have a better job.

It would be great if learning things on your own was more appreciated in this society, but it seems like you have to throw away thousands of dollars on some stupid meaningless degree in order to be respected. I suppose I could play it up in interviews by saying I didn't have money to go to school so I created my own opportunity, or something.



geekofalltrades said:


> There are people you can work with to help you build those self-marketing skills, too. They're skills that a lot of otherwise really competent people lack. I worked with a guy at a group called Career Horizons, which is local here in Seattle, but I'm sure you could find a similar group near where you live. It feels fake and terrible when you first start doing it, but you sort of just have to recognize that it's all really overblown, and people generally expect it to be really overblown, and it's sort of just what everyone has to do to get ahead in the job environment.


Will these places also teach me how to not repulse other people with my body language? I went to a recruiting agency towards the end of my unemployment and was told I was "too shy."



geekofalltrades said:


> It ain't easy. I just had an informational interview over the phone with a guy my dad knows who works at Amazon, just to do general career research, ask him about the company, the interview process, etc. Now I'm having another I'd-rather-just-die phase.


Searching for a job is the worst. I'm really not looking forward to having to do it again in a couple of years. Our society is a crumbling metropolis of bullshit.


----------



## dragthewaters

Scruzz said:


> My sister was an electrician for a while. Nothing weird about that. Only she was saying that you really have to put up with being shocked every day. She switched to Radiation Technician. It was less stressful for her.


What did she think of the apprenticeship/training process? Did she have trouble finding work?


----------



## angularvelocity

thismustbetheplace said:


> Do you think people would look down on me if I got my Masters' degree that way? Like would they see me as a "failure" because I dropped out of getting my Ph.D? And would I learn the same stuff that I would learn otherwise?
> 
> If I did get a master's degree it would be at a local university or state university where the tuition is only about $5K/year. Going to an "elite" college didn't do shit for me this time around so I'm avoiding that scam in the future. I've also heard that a master's is really only a part-time degree and you can usually work while getting one in any case.
> 
> Usually you have to have a medical technologist or medical laboratory technician certification to work in a hospital. It was listed as a requirement on almost all of the jobs I saw when I was looking. Considering it's not that much of a pay increase and I don't particularly like lab work anyway, I don't think it's worth it to study for and take the exam.
> 
> USAjobs didn't have anything when I looked, and anything they did have required additional certifications. It's really hard to get a government job because 90% of the jobs are reserved for people who already work for the government. A lot of times they require certifications and then the certification exams don't even get scheduled, and when they do get scheduled they get postponed or the results get thrown out because too many people cheated on the test (this happened to my mom once when she had to take a civil service exam). I don't mind studying for and taking a certification exam but I don't want to waste time and money on a career path only for it to turn out to be another dead end. I need to be certain that things are going to pan out before investing in them.


You will not be looked down upon for getting a Master's degree in that way. Your mentor might be disappointed that you didn't stay for the entire duration of the program (cause you are their investment). And yes, you learn the same stuff you learn in the Master's program. Master's students typically take the exact same coursework as the Doctoral student for the first two years. At that juncture, the Master's student obtains their degree and leaves while the doctoral student does their proposal and begins their dissertation work. 

I think the time commitment for the Master's depends. The one-year programs (if you can still find them nowadays) are full-time and all day in classes, or at least a good chunk. Most programs I've come across are two years and hold their classes in the evening and night to allow people to work during the day. I'll be honest, I would take the ivy league over the state university. There is a tremendous difference in what you learn. Just my two cents.


----------



## dragthewaters

angularvelocity said:


> You will not be looked down upon for getting a Master's degree in that way. Your mentor might be disappointed that you didn't stay for the entire duration of the program (cause you are their investment). And yes, you learn the same stuff you learn in the Master's program. Master's students typically take the exact same coursework as the Doctoral student for the first two years. At that juncture, the Master's student obtains their degree and leaves while the doctoral student does their proposal and begins their dissertation work.
> 
> I think the time commitment for the Master's depends. The one-year programs (if you can still find them nowadays) are full-time and all day in classes, or at least a good chunk. Most programs I've come across are two years and hold their classes in the evening and night to allow people to work during the day. I'll be honest, I would take the ivy league over the state university. There is a tremendous difference in what you learn. Just my two cents.


idk, I'd feel sleazy doing things that way and having to lie about my intentions to so many people. Also don't grad students have to do rotations in labs and stuff like that in addition to coursework? So it would be the same thing as having a full-time job while getting a master's degree.

I doubt I could get into another Ivy League college again even if I wanted to go, and it would be massively expensive (I know the master's in education at Columbia costs $60,000).


----------



## Eudaimonia

thismustbetheplace said:


> What did she think of the apprenticeship/training process? Did she have trouble finding work?


She is very bright and worked for the company who trained her (as is normally the case). Apparently she went through the training very quickly and then had more work than she could shake a stick at. You need to drink a lot of water to make sure your salt level in your blood is low so that you are less conductive. haha. She worked out in the country which is different from working in a big city in a guild or union type situation. Don't know all the ins and outs of being licensed or passing city tests and stuff like that because she did all this when I was living overseas, but now, when I need an electrician, I call my sister first.


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## geekofalltrades

thismustbetheplace said:


> I know that's what you're supposed to do, but it's not so much that it feels fake to me as that it feels delusional. I don't want people to think I'm some insane person who thinks I'm so great when it's obvious to everyone out there that I suck. If I didn't suck I'd have a better job.


If you graduated with a 3.4 GPA and a year of lab experience from an Ivy League, you certainly don't suck. You've probably learned a lot of skills in your lab job that seem mundane to you, but they're valuable skills that not every layperson has. It sounds like you maybe run a lot of PCR or cloning type reactions? I had a job like that for a grand total of two months when I was a sophomore, or something, but I still keep it around on my resume; PCR, electrophoresis, micropipetting, sterile technique, photospectrometry, bacterial cloning, etc. are not common skills, especially in your run-of-the-mill Bachelor's-degree-holder who went to all his lectures but never interned or got any lab experience while he was in school. Even if you don't intend to use those skills ever again (I sure don't; I hated the wet lab, which is why I quit after two months), keeping a nice bulleted list of them around shows that you're adaptable, a quick and intuitive learner, easily trained, and other such soulless marketing buzzwords.



> It would be great if learning things on your own was more appreciated in this society, but it seems like you have to throw away thousands of dollars on some stupid meaningless degree in order to be respected. I suppose I could play it up in interviews by saying I didn't have money to go to school so I created my own opportunity, or something.


Exactly, yeah (on the playing it up part). I think it's kind of a shame that self-sufficiency isn't more valued, too, but then again, big successful companies are pretty much by necessity cooperative efforts, so it makes sense that interviewers want to evaluate your fit into the company's social environment in addition to just your competency. Would that it weren't so. At my last position, we were all in a shared office space, but communicated pretty much exclusively via Skype all day; that was a dream come true for me.



> Will these places also teach me how to not repulse other people with my body language? I went to a recruiting agency towards the end of my unemployment and was told I was "too shy."


They might. The one I've been working with asked me at the end of our last appointment how I think other people perceive me. My answer was immediately, "awkward." He said no, and that the impression of me he's gotten in our appointments has always been cold, standoffish, even arrogant. Apparently the robotic INT stereotype is often perceived, rather than as shy, awkward, or nervous, as superior, or as you thinking the other person is beneath you, or not important enough, etc. He told me that I should laugh more and not play my cards so close to my chest. Actually working through the social anxiety issues is a bit out of his job description, but it was useful that he made me aware of them. That's the sort of thing a career counselor type person might point out to you.

My counselor is also very aware of the fact that I'm an extreme introvert. He designed a plan for me that's centered around using LinkedIn and online jobhunt sites like Indeed, SimplyHired, Monster, and Dice. He directed me to glassdoor.com for most of my career research. To network, he showed me how I can "get an introduction" to people on my LinkedIn network who I share a connection with via LinkedIn's messaging system. He gave me a big list of recruiters and taught me how to write a reasonable cover letter to send off to them along with my resume. The counselor is actually one of the only people I've actually talked to in person during the whole process, which is great, since that isn't my strong suit.


----------



## dragthewaters

geekofalltrades said:


> If you graduated with a 3.4 GPA and a year of lab experience from an Ivy League, you certainly don't suck. You've probably learned a lot of skills in your lab job that seem mundane to you, but they're valuable skills that not every layperson has. It sounds like you maybe run a lot of PCR or cloning type reactions? I had a job like that for a grand total of two months when I was a sophomore, or something, but I still keep it around on my resume; PCR, electrophoresis, micropipetting, sterile technique, photospectrometry, bacterial cloning, etc. are not common skills, especially in your run-of-the-mill Bachelor's-degree-holder who went to all his lectures but never interned or got any lab experience while he was in school. Even if you don't intend to use those skills ever again (I sure don't; I hated the wet lab, which is why I quit after two months), keeping a nice bulleted list of them around shows that you're adaptable, a quick and intuitive learner, easily trained, and other such soulless marketing buzzwords.


I think most people graduate with internship experience (and most people have more varied experience than I did; I wish I had interned in an office during one summer so it would show people I have administrative/people skills). I currently have 4 summers of lab experience as well as a 2-3 credit internship during the last 3 semesters I was at college (my experience includes cancer-related molecular biology, plant molecular biology, and evolutionary biology research). By the time I quit this job I have currently, I will have 1-2 more years of experience in molecular and structural biology; hopefully I will actually get to do the electron microscopy, cryo-EM and crystallography type of stuff as well as help in analysis of the results, since I feel like this will better show off my critical thinking skills and intelligence to future employers (as well as being a topic of interest for me).



geekofalltrades said:


> Exactly, yeah (on the playing it up part). I think it's kind of a shame that self-sufficiency isn't more valued, too, but then again, big successful companies are pretty much by necessity cooperative efforts, so it makes sense that interviewers want to evaluate your fit into the company's social environment in addition to just your competency.


And that cooperative effort thing is part of what's held me back. I've never really worked on a team in a work context -- it's always been a one-to-one relationship between me and whatever boss I had at the time on whatever project I was doing, with maybe occasional contribution from other members of the lab who were working on different projects. I actually work really well in a group and I always was the main coordinating/organizational-management person when we did group projects in school, but unfortunately you can't put that on your resume 

Also so many people are learning coding right now to become employable, I don't know how much it will actually help me.



geekofalltrades said:


> They might. The one I've been working with asked me at the end of our last appointment how I think other people perceive me. My answer was immediately, "awkward." He said no, and that the impression of me he's gotten in our appointments has always been cold, standoffish, even arrogant. Apparently the robotic INT stereotype is often perceived, rather than as shy, awkward, or nervous, as superior, or as you thinking the other person is beneath you, or not important enough, etc. He told me that I should laugh more and not play my cards so close to my chest. Actually working through the social anxiety issues is a bit out of his job description, but it was useful that he made me aware of them. That's the sort of thing a career counselor type person might point out to you.
> 
> My counselor is also very aware of the fact that I'm an extreme introvert. He designed a plan for me that's centered around using LinkedIn and online jobhunt sites like Indeed, SimplyHired, Monster, and Dice. He directed me to glassdoor.com for most of my career research. To network, he showed me how I can "get an introduction" to people on my LinkedIn network who I share a connection with via LinkedIn's messaging system. He gave me a big list of recruiters and taught me how to write a reasonable cover letter to send off to them along with my resume. The counselor is actually one of the only people I've actually talked to in person during the whole process, which is great, since that isn't my strong suit.


That sounds like a good service that guy provides. However I would guess that most career counselor type people aren't as helpful and perceptive as he is. The ones at my high school/college definitely weren't.


----------



## angularvelocity

thismustbetheplace said:


> idk, I'd feel sleazy doing things that way and having to lie about my intentions to so many people. Also don't grad students have to do rotations in labs and stuff like that in addition to coursework? So it would be the same thing as having a full-time job while getting a master's degree.
> 
> I doubt I could get into another Ivy League college again even if I wanted to go, and it would be massively expensive (I know the master's in education at Columbia costs $60,000).


I understand why you'd feel guilty taking that route to getting a Master's degree. Interestingly enough, I was at a house party this weekend and found myself in a group of individuals who are pursuing their doctorates in philosophy (I think there were 6 of them). They were discussing the length of their programs, as one of them was on their 8th year, and they mentioned how a lot of students enter the program and end up dropping out and taking a Master's degree in the process. Some of the students in that party circle jested, but were also rather serious, about dropping the program and leaving with a Master's. Apparently it is a very common practice because people can't finish the Ph.D. I wouldn't feel bad just because you might consider doing it consciously. In my honest opinion, education is a rip off and no Master's degree is worth $50,000. The school system won't be losing money by you entering as a doctoral student and taking a free Master's degree. I mean they will, but it's chump change to them.

You'd be surprised at how easy Ph.D programs are to get in. Competition is BY FAR less stiff than professional/clinical degrees like Medicine, Dentistry, Law, Physical Therapy etc. A lot of people don't want to go and commit 5+ years in school making little money to have poor job prospects. Plus, the application process is incredibly simple. One of the programs I got accepted to for the sciences is a top ranked school in the world and they accepted 10 of the 12 applicants into the program. I did check Columbia for my program and they tend to not fund which is highly atypical of most doctoral programs. And I know this cause I went from what is considered "a very low ranked state university already in a low tier" to the #1 ranked university for my program. Given that you have an Ivy League undergraduate education, you are fine applying there for graduate schools.


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## Death Persuades

Life isn't all about making more money. You say you enjoy the job... So why not stick to it? You're engaged and once you're married, individual income will matter very little. Together you two would make more than 100k a year, and considering that the scientifically backed fact that money stops producing more happinesss at around 75k a year (assuming we're talking about a married couple), I'd say you two are just where you should be. You enjoy it, so stick to it. If it at any point bores you, I'd vote for electrician. (But I think you'd make more or less the same unless you work independently)


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## dragthewaters

angularvelocity said:


> I understand why you'd feel guilty taking that route to getting a Master's degree. Interestingly enough, I was at a house party this weekend and found myself in a group of individuals who are pursuing their doctorates in philosophy (I think there were 6 of them). They were discussing the length of their programs, as one of them was on their 8th year, and they mentioned how a lot of students enter the program and end up dropping out and taking a Master's degree in the process. Some of the students in that party circle jested, but were also rather serious, about dropping the program and leaving with a Master's. Apparently it is a very common practice because people can't finish the Ph.D. I wouldn't feel bad just because you might consider doing it consciously. In my honest opinion, education is a rip off and no Master's degree is worth $50,000. The school system won't be losing money by you entering as a doctoral student and taking a free Master's degree. I mean they will, but it's chump change to them.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how easy Ph.D programs are to get in. Competition is BY FAR less stiff than professional/clinical degrees like Medicine, Dentistry, Law, Physical Therapy etc. A lot of people don't want to go and commit 5+ years in school making little money to have poor job prospects. Plus, the application process is incredibly simple. One of the programs I got accepted to for the sciences is a top ranked school in the world and they accepted 10 of the 12 applicants into the program. I did check Columbia for my program and they tend to not fund which is highly atypical of most doctoral programs. And I know this cause I went from what is considered "a very low ranked state university already in a low tier" to the #1 ranked university for my program. Given that you have an Ivy League undergraduate education, you are fine applying there for graduate schools.


I wouldn't feel bad cheating the school out of money, I would feel bad having the PI invest resources into me when I didn't intend to follow through.


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## dragthewaters

Diligent Procrastinator said:


> Life isn't all about making more money. You say you enjoy the job... So why not stick to it? You're engaged and once you're married, individual income will matter very little. Together you two would make more than 100k a year, and considering that the scientifically backed fact that money stops producing more happinesss at around 75k a year (assuming we're talking about a married couple), I'd say you two are just where you should be. You enjoy it, so stick to it. If it at any point bores you, I'd vote for electrician. (But I think you'd make more or less the same unless you work independently)


It's not about the money itself. It's about feeling like I wasted my potential. It's about having to lie to my mom and tell her I'm making 30K a year because she would flip her shit if she knew I was only making 24. It's about seeing all the people I graduated high school and college with going out there and doing great things, while I am stuck feeling like I don't do anything of much importance. It's about feeling like other people think I am valueless. It's about feeling like I sacrificed 6+ years of my life on college and getting into college for absolutely nothing (I never enjoyed school and if I could have gone straight into the workforce after high school I would have...but my family expected me to pursue higher education because of my academic record).

I could be making this salary working retail without even a high school diploma. It's a slap in the face. And the job doesn't have any opportunities for advancement either; at least if it had a career ladder then there would be something to go after.

Also a significant other should never be a financial strategy. I want my own independent income and nest egg. You never know what will happen in life. And I don't want to waste my potential. My fiance and I have almost the same IQ. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to get to the level he is at in life by the time I'm his age.


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## angularvelocity

thismustbetheplace said:


> I wouldn't feel bad cheating the school out of money, I would feel bad having the PI invest resources into me when I didn't intend to follow through.


Truth.

Although here is the other thing, they are paying you go to to school there and also to work for them. While you are there, you are getting paid minimal amounts to teach (which they usually don't want to teach). You are doing them a favor while you're there. And you'll probably get an abstract or paper out while you're there which helps them out too. It's not the worst thing in the world to grab a free Master's that route. In a sense, everyone wins.


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## dragthewaters

angularvelocity said:


> Truth.
> 
> Although here is the other thing, they are paying you go to to school there and also to work for them. While you are there, you are getting paid minimal amounts to teach (which they usually don't want to teach). You are doing them a favor while you're there. And you'll probably get an abstract or paper out while you're there which helps them out too. It's not the worst thing in the world to grab a free Master's that route. In a sense, everyone wins.


I suppose. Then there's the other problem of figuring out what degree I should get, if any. I'd rather not have to go back to school to be honest (as I mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I don't particularly enjoy school, or lab work). The electrician thing is looking more appealing by the day.


----------



## Gossip Goat

I'm also a soon to be bio major & this scared the shit out of me. Even tho i knew a bio degree itself is pretty useless unless you plan to head out to med school (which I'm still debating)

Maybe nursing could be your thing, its also a path I'm considering, among others if I decide biology isnt my thing.


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## SingingStars

thismustbetheplace said:


> I graduated in May 2013 with a degree in Molecular and Cellular Biology from an Ivy League school. I had a pretty good GPA (3.4 overall with above-4.0 both semesters of senior year) and extensive research experience, including at world-famous labs. I majored in biology because I thought it was a useful degree and there was a high demand for STEM degrees in the job market. Somehow nobody bothered to tell me that my degree would be worthless without a Ph.D and even then it would be not worth the time and risk involved to try to get a tenured position. Naturally once I figured that out I decided against going to grad school. I'm also not cut out for medical school even if I wanted to be a doctor.
> 
> My second mistake (first mistake being my choice of major) was to try to bail on the field of biology with no experience in any other field. I looked for an education/nonprofit job for about three months with no luck. By the time I started applying to lab technician jobs, I was pretty desperate for employment so (third mistake) I accepted the first job offer that I got without even asking about salary until after I accepted.
> 
> I do enjoy my job -- there's opportunity to learn new things, even though there's no opportunity to advance promotion or salary-wise. However, I only make 24K a year, and that's in New York City. I don't actually think that's an unreasonable salary since I have a lot of downtime at work (while waiting for reactions to run and so forth), and despite living in the NYC area I don't need much money (I live in NJ with my fiance and roommates so my rent is super cheap, and in any case my fiance makes 80K a year). The only reason why it bothers me is feeling like I am a failure compared to the people from my graduating class. I'm pretty happy with my life the way it is but it is obviously not sustainable in the long-term.
> 
> So I guess my question is, where should I go from here? I'm looking for a career track with growth potential and a reasonable salary. I will absolutely not get a Ph.D or go to medical school, but apart from that, I would be ok with getting a master's degree as long as I know beyond a reasonable doubt that it will help me land a career. Depending on the circumstances, I would even be ok with going to optometry school or dental school (although I'm not sure how good I would be at dentistry given my lack of coordination).
> 
> I think I could only land a technical sort of job since it seems like (from my job search this summer) potential employers aren't enthusiastic about my people skills (I don't think I'm bad at dealing with people, but I'm shy and I guess socially awkward). Also, I will be open to leaving the NYC area once I leave this current job and get my driver's license, so that expands my options somewhat.
> 
> Anyway, so here are various options I've been considering.
> *Learning coding/computer science on my own and becoming a software developer or something else in that field. I have already been learning Javascript on my own during my downtime at work and my goal is to be proficient in multiple coding languages and know the basics of data structures, algorithms, etc. by October 2014. My fiance works in this field and he says that you don't need a degree or anything as long as you know what you're doing, and also his connections might or might not help me in the job search. The problem is that I worry the market is becoming too saturated.
> 
> **Going back to school for a master's in something related to biology, but with better career prospects. For example, environmental engineering, public health, or something like that.
> 
> *Going to optometry or dental school.
> 
> *Becoming an electrician. I know that one sounds weird, especially considering I'm a female, but there is an increasing demand for electricians in the U.S. (according to the Internet) and it's a job that can take you anywhere and can't be outsourced overseas. However the apprenticeship takes 4 years so I'd really have to be positive it was going to go somewhere.
> 
> *Getting some type of government certification related to biology and doing something related to that (ie. health inspector, industrial equipment inspector, working for the EPA, etc.)
> 
> *Becoming an accountant...I don't know how possible that would be at this point, but it pays well and I think I'd be good at it.
> *
> Anyone have any advice on specific careers or more careers to recommend? Any bio majors who didn't go to grad school or med school want to share their experience? Also do you think my current salary will cause future potential employers to not take me seriously?


Please don't go back to school for another degree or anything that's going to cost a lot of money until you have a plan. Right now since you are kind of lost (seeing as you have laid out a bunch of unrelated options) my advice to you would be to do some free exploring. Like try out a different job. You don't have to find your forever workplace right now and a forever workplace may not even exist. But definately, try something new without paying for it. Maybe get a random office job (office assistant or something that doesn't require specific training beforehand) in a new field just to see if you like it. Maybe learn how to do excel or quickbooks on your own time and apply for a bookeeping job. Maybe go to a temp agency and see what they have to offer.

Try some new stuff. Don't be too committed too quick and please don't enroll in graduate school or another degree program that will cost you thousands as a way to explore your options.


----------



## dragthewaters

SingingStars said:


> Please don't go back to school for another degree or anything that's going to cost a lot of money until you have a plan. Right now since you are kind of lost (seeing as you have laid out a bunch of unrelated options) my advice to you would be to do some free exploring. Like try out a different job. You don't have to find your forever workplace right now and a forever workplace may not even exist. But definately, try something new without paying for it. Maybe get a random office job (office assistant or something that doesn't require specific training beforehand) in a new field just to see if you like it. Maybe learn how to do excel or quickbooks on your own time and apply for a bookeeping job. Maybe go to a temp agency and see what they have to offer.
> 
> Try some new stuff. Don't be too committed too quick and please don't enroll in graduate school or another degree program that will cost you thousands as a way to explore your options.


I don't plan on it. I decided against dental/optometry school due to the cost and the restrictiveness, and against accounting since I think computers will probably take over that industry in the near future.

I'm still learning how to code, albeit extremely slowly, so maybe that will lead somewhere. Government certifications are still an option -- they're self-study and all you have to pay for is the fee for the exam, so it wouldn't be a huge time or money commitment. And if I ever wanted to get into a trade, I would study it and maybe take one class in it on my own before deciding whether to commit.

I WISH I could get an office job, and I did try when I first graduated...but I live in New York City. I'm competing against people who have worked in administrative jobs for years and years, and everyone is looking for those types of jobs. I did go to a temp agency back when I was unemployed but I actually got rejected by them for being too shy, if you can believe that. It would be great if I had more ability to explore my options, as liberal arts majors usually do, but everyone assumes that science is all I can do unfortunately.


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## HandiAce

thismustbetheplace said:


> In that case, would it be possible and/or worth it to get a masters' in comp sci without having a bachelor's in it? My fiance got into software development without having a degree in it (and he works for a Fortune 500 company, although I'm not sure how much luck was involved in him getting that job due to his boss's unconventionality), but he had a master's in electrical engineering and 6 years work experience. I have asked him if he thinks it would be worth it for me to get a master's in comp sci but he has said most people don't really care about it and it would be a waste of time, so I don't know. I do know most coding-related jobs have technical interviews which should assess how much skill you actually have.


You may need some undergraduate courses, but you could definitely do the bridge into an MCS degree at some colleges. University of Illinois, for instance writes this:

"Applicants who do not hold a bachelor in computer science must have sufficient background in computer programming, algorithms and data structures, computer organization, and theory of computation (Comparable to CS 125, CS 225, CS 231/232, and CS 173/373 at UIUC). _"_

So those courses are:
Intro to Computer Science
Data Structures
Computer Architecture I + II
Discrete Structures
Theory of Computation

Your life isn't over. I graduated with a B.S. in Biology. I help relocate laboratories and tutor on weekends. I don't do any pipetting or examinations under microscopes, but if I want to, I could bridge over to a Master's in mechanical engineering by taking some extra undergraduate courses. If you find computer science interesting, you'll enjoy the coursework needed to get into that area.


----------



## Emerald Legend

If I was in your shoes I would've looked into-
-Teaching biology in high school level/
-Lerning perl scripting, and enrol at a bioinformatics program at local college. Work for a lab after../
-Going for associates degree in lab technologist, radiation technologist. 

etc. etc.


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## dragthewaters

HandiAce said:


> You may need some undergraduate courses, but you could definitely do the bridge into an MCS degree at some colleges. University of Illinois, for instance writes this:
> 
> "Applicants who do not hold a bachelor in computer science must have sufficient background in computer programming, algorithms and data structures, computer organization, and theory of computation (Comparable to CS 125, CS 225, CS 231/232, and CS 173/373 at UIUC). _"_
> 
> So those courses are:
> Intro to Computer Science
> Data Structures
> Computer Architecture I + II
> Discrete Structures
> Theory of Computation
> 
> Your life isn't over. I graduated with a B.S. in Biology. I help relocate laboratories and tutor on weekends. I don't do any pipetting or examinations under microscopes, but if I want to, I could bridge over to a Master's in mechanical engineering by taking some extra undergraduate courses. If you find computer science interesting, you'll enjoy the coursework needed to get into that area.


Do you think I could get a job in computer science without a formal degree though? If I learn things on my own and create a portfolio of projects? I know a master's isn't that many credits but it's still expensive and kind of a waste of time, and, as you said, I may have to take a ton of prerequisite comp sci classes even if I already have that knowledge just as a formality.

I tried to become a tutor, but unfortunately the Powers That Be decided I was too inexperienced or not good enough or whatever. I think I could only really do a technical job because people seem to think that I'm not good at jobs that involve human interaction, at least compared to the average person.



Emerald Legend said:


> If I was in your shoes I would've looked into-
> -Teaching biology in high school level/
> -Lerning perl scripting, and enrol at a bioinformatics program at local college. Work for a lab after../
> -Going for associates degree in lab technologist, radiation technologist.
> 
> etc. etc.


I tried to get into teaching but I wasn't good enough. And I don't have the money for a master's in education.

Bioinformatics is an option, but don't most people have to have Ph.Ds in it? As I said, I'd rather shoot myself in the head than go to grad school.

I'll become a medical technologist if I absolutely have to, but I don't really want to expose myself to dangerous pathogens just for a job that I won't even particularly like. And I don't want to have sacrificed so many years getting an education just to have a job that I could have gotten with an associates' degree from a community college, and make $20 an hour for the rest of my life. But if I absolutely have no other options I'll do it.


----------



## HandiAce

thismustbetheplace said:


> Do you think I could get a job in computer science without a formal degree though? If I learn things on my own and create a portfolio of projects?


I can't guarantee you would. I would imagine your options would be more limited. I know there are some Ruby on Rails/Web development bootcamps which last no more than 12 weeks (http://www.gotealeaf.com).
You might find www.EdX.org appealing. They have computing courses you can take for free which can end in a certification granted you pass them.


----------



## dragthewaters

HandiAce said:


> I can't guarantee you would. I would imagine your options would be more limited. I know there are some Ruby on Rails/Web development bootcamps which last no more than 12 weeks (Ruby on Rails Online Bootcamp - Tealeaf Academy).
> You might find www.EdX.org appealing. They have computing courses you can take for free which can end in a certification granted you pass them.


I heard that employers don't take those certifications that seriously though. I have a friend who took a Ruby on Rails course similar to the ones you mentioned, and he didn't include it on his resume because he said there are so many of these types of programs out there that employers can't tell which ones are reputable and which ones aren't. But that you can prove your competence through the technical interview and your portfolio.

I would take the courses for learning experience if necessary (I'd have to wait until after quitting my job to do "bootcamp" ones though, because according to my friend they're about 80 hours a week of work) but I don't know if the actual piece of paper saying I took the course would give me an advantage. In any case there's a ton of free and good-quality info online to learn any conceivable topic related to computer science, and my fiance tutors me sometimes also, so that's why I'd rather not waste the money on a degree.


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## Razare

thismustbetheplace said:


> So I guess my question is, where should I go from here? I'm looking for a career track with growth potential and a reasonable salary.


It sounds like you need to switch out of the biology industry, whatever industry that is, I have no clue... just sounds like it's not working for you.



> *Becoming an accountant...I don't know how possible that would be at this point, but it pays well and I think I'd be good at it.


So that's what I do, if you can get a few years experience at it, you can do well in the job market.

If you get a bookkeeper position, they can pay as high as $16 per hour. I make $13 at mine. Most bookkeeper positions require you have an associates degree, but not all of them do. If you had a few years experience as a bookkeeper, you could eventually get hired somewhere else as one. The problem is getting that first job where you accumulate experience.

If you want to make 45k+ you're probably going to have to get a bachelor's degree in accounting. Once you have a bachelor's degree, the industry opens up quite a bit... it's still hard to get an entry-level job if you have no experience, but if your grades are good, and you have 150 credit hours you may get into a major accounting firm. If you land one of those jobs and become a CPA, you can probably expect to make 60k+ down the road because you'll get the best experience possible.

It's still possible to earn 50k+ without becoming a CPA, and just have a bachelors degree in accounting. It just depends what kind of job experience you accumulate.

--------------------------------------

There is an entirely different avenue you could get into as an accountant that requires no college.

You could study and pass the enrolled agent exam administered by the IRS. It would be very hard to find a job with just as an enrolled agent and no degree or experience... yet, I don't think it would be impossible.

An enrolled agent is authorized by the IRS to file taxes for individuals/corporations, as well as represent clients before the IRS. You could then legally start your own tax & accounting business, representing people and doing accounting work which requires no degree. Getting hired somewhere is possible, I think, I just don't see a lot of enrolled agent openings online that don't also require experience and a degree.

Yet if you train yourself on Quickbooks (or something similar) and known your accounting stuff, I could definitely see a small CPA firm hiring you. This is the cheap route as it requires no degree. But you'll want to know basic accounting and try to learn the basic software (Excel & QB), so it would be the equivalent of a degree in terms of how much you would have to learn.

According to payscale.com enrolled agents earn anywhere from 24k to 72k... the higher end probably requires a degree... but hey, if you get really good at doing taxes, start your own firm, and make 100k a year if you can bring in the clients.

H&R block will also hire enrolled agents, but I'm not sure how competitive the pay is.


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## xisnotx

i'm in a similar position...

i'm trying to realize what i'm really good at. i figure, the top 1% of any profession is living well...and really, it's about using your own talents and situation to achieve some goal. 

what do you want to see get done? go help and do it, helping as only you can.

that's my perspective, anyway. 

everything else will fall into place.

but doing something because "the market is good"...i don't like that idea. it's why i'm not becoming a doctor...i value being the best. i don't think i'd be the best doctor. i'd be a good doctor. maybe in the top 30% of doctors...but i want to be the best. good isn't good enough.


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