# Please help me to quiet the frantic voices arguing in my head! (aka INTP or INFJ?)



## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm driving myself nuts with the back-and-forth of the voices in my head trying to decide my type, so I'm going to extravert a little and ask for help from anyone who's willing to give an opinion. (Pretty, pretty please!)

Let's start with the easy part: I'm absolutely certain that I'm an N. The first time that I read a description of an intuitive, I felt relief ... like I was coming home after a long, hard day. I thought to myself, "So _that's_ why I'm like this!" 

I'm also sure that I'm an I. The only time that I ever considered the possibility of being an E was with ENTP, but that possibility was entertained for less than two hours. Just reading all the Ne on the ENTP boards wore me out, and there's no way that I have enough energy to constantly interact with the Real World. I can easily last a month without human interaction (I've done it several times), but a month without any time alone turns me into a snarling b!tch (yup, I literally snarl). I also don't mind being a shut-in (though occasional excursions can be quite refreshing), and I'm almost always glad to come home.

So that leaves me with INTP, INTJ, INFJ, and INFP. Of those choices, INTP and INFJ seem to be the most applicable. 

I've never really considered the chance that I'm an INFP. The idea of being an F-dom just feels wrong, like wearing ill-fitting clothes. As far as I can tell, I'm an unskilled Fe user. I definitely care what other people think of me, and have developed overwhelming social anxieties in recent years (I'm 28 now). I want everyone to get along, to the point of playing devil's advocate in other people's arguments. Which, as you might guess, just makes them both mad at me and never seems to help ... so now I try to control that instinct and just avoid their arguments. I lack a certain innate sense of social niceties (e.g., I didn't know the proper response to a compliment until I was in 7th grade), but I am usually polite (mostly just "please" and "thank you" in my own perceptions, but people have commented on my good manners). My temper started to reveal itself in my teen years, but my heart skips a beat if someone raises their voice ... somewhere in the back of my mind, I quickly evaluate my recent behavior to figure out if I'm about to get yelled at. I'm not sure how much all of that has to do with my upbringing. ... And for a few years starting in my mid-teens, I became very outgoing and would talk to strangers quite often. People responded well because of my looks, but being friendly to unknown males repeatedly got me into trouble ... and that might be where the social anxieties came from.

I did briefly allow for the possibility of being an INTJ, but I'm pretty darn sure that I'm not. I'm just not that hard-a$$ed, and I don't deal well with Te. Give me a chance to organize something in the real world, and I'll become obsessive and increasingly frantic as I try to make it all work together the way it's _supposed to_, then I'll give up because I'm annoyed and bored as hell. On the other hand, give me a logic game, a complex equation, or a computer function to code, and my Ti will happily oblige you. 

When I was growing up, my favorite hobbies were reading (fiction), playing logic games (mostly the grid ones), and drawing floorplans. That last one might just be a reflection of my environment. We moved every 1.5 to 2 years, so I've been inside a lot of houses. Every time we toured a house, I could instantly visualize what it could look like with furnishings (usually not our own stuff) and maybe some upgrades. I sure got tired of moving, but I loooved walking around the houses and dreaming of what could be. Drawing floorplans felt like an extension of that. By drawing some lines on a paper, it's like they'd come alive and embody a life that _could_ be ... one day, for somebody .... It's the same feeling I get when walking or driving through a residential neighborhood. I look at a house and I wonder about the life that happens behind those walls. (Windows are particularly fascinating, maybe for some symbolic reason.) Usually these aren't fully formed ideas of people and their lives, but just this odd, vaguely pleasant, slightly sad sense of ... something. It's almost nostalgic. I dunno. 

Anyway, whatever that is, I would guess that it's a reflection of my dominant function because it feels like an integral part of _me_ and how I feel when I stop yelling at myself for wasting time daydreaming. And I can't remember how I felt when I was reading fiction back then, but I would guess it's related as well. I can get wrapped up in a story immediately, and the real world feels like the imposter when it tries to drag me away from the words on the page. I rarely read fiction these days because I know that I won't do anything else until I'm done with it. I'm a fast reader, but it still interferes with my responsibilities (ick!). 

So I think that I've identified strong Ti and weak Fe ... but I'm not really convinced that Ti is my dominant function. Whatever I described earlier sure doesn't seem like a logical process. It seems more N or F, but I don't think that I could be an Fx or Ne dom. So that leaves Ni, which I don't wholly understand. 

For a while, I had believed myself to be an INFJ. But I was also trapped in an abusive relationship and under an unreasonable amount of stress, so my emotions likely skewed my internal investigations. Once I managed to extricate myself from the situation and had a couple of months for my emotions to settle down, I became convinced that I'm an INTP. (That was also the result on the very first MBTI test I ever took; they're now entirely worthless because I can subconsciously answer them in any way that suits the type/functions I want.) But it's possible that the pendulum was just swinging in the other direction, and I was left with T and a dominant N to finish processing everything. ... Maybe?

After I started thinking that I'm an INTP, I accepted a professional programming job and did well. Coding isn't exciting unless I'm solving some interesting problem, but it can be easy and relaxing. However, recently something happened to knock me off-kilter. I'm not entirely sure how it all started, but I'm inclined to point the finger at S. I was content while coding the backend, but then I had to start on the frontend design. I had to convert a PSD to HTML/CSS, it had to be pixel-perfect, and the designer repeatedly changed things so I had to keep starting over on sections. I spent hours trying to make everything look perfect, while a ticking clock (and my boss) tried to push my S into doing it faster, faster, faster. I think that's when I started to go haywire. 

I was miserable, so I wanted to take two or three days off so I could spend some time with my daughter on a vacation. My boss got p!ssed and turned on me, so my Fe took an enormous hit. I also wasn't getting any alone time that week so my mood was off, and everything started to spiral out of control. It's rocked my confidence and sent me back to the drawing board to again figure out what I should be doing. I'm good at coding, but I should only be doing it if I'm a T (a tertiary Ti shouldn't be responsible for my livelihood, but it's ok if I'm a Ti-dom). An ST would be even better for most coding. Same goes for copy-editing, which I've done in the past. It's heavy on the S, but I mostly relied on Ti. Plus, I could tune out while reading and an internal alarm would jolt me back to reality whenever my eyes had passed over an error. I didn't rely on that method too often since it was professionally dangerous, but it was useful for days when I just didn't feel like focusing. (However, three years of editing had the side effect of giving me ridiculous writer's block on nonfiction, and I almost wish that I had never done it.) And, again, when I wired a house and its solar system, it was fun for my T but required too much attention to detail. It seems like a lot of jobs require that, and I just don't know how to get around it. But I would say that my professional history has been strongly skewed toward my T, although I would greatly prefer to use my N more.

I really just don't want to deal with S jobs, especially ones with lots of SJs (like my boss). I think that a good number of my ever-growing anxieties are a result of pressure to act like an SJ, which I just can't seem to do properly. (I wonder why!) But in an effort to "clean up my act," I've avoided doing things that bring me pleasure, feel guilty when I do indulge, and get increasingly bitter as the charade continues. It's not healthy. But unless I can replace it with something that seems more "correct" (as in, befitting my type), I expect it to continue. It'd be so nice to be an SJ and actually fit into this world, but that just ain't gonna happen for me. The next best thing is to find a suitable and profitable niche that I can truly commit to. 

So now I'm thinking about writing fiction, which would be a great N outlet if I am an INFJ rather than an INTP. It's fun, and every night I fall asleep to the stories that I work on while I'm lying there. The obvious downside is that I can't force it and thus feel like I have little control over the process. (If I was financially secure, it'd be fine.) I've thought about doing a mix of coding and writing, but I don't want to pursue the latter if I'm unlikely to be successful at it (i.e., an INTP). If I am an INFJ, then I can convince myself that it's worth the time and effort, and maybe then I could relax enough to stay with it. I made a pro/con list of why it's a suitable choice, but honestly, I think that I'm just being reactionary. But when my thoughts keep feeding on themselves and running in ever-tighter circles around my mind, everything feels all jumbled and I don't know which way is up.

I think that I've reviewed my judging functions enough, so let's see about the perceiving functions. Unfortunately, my S is so weak in general that I can't determine its orientation. In my teens, I liked yoga (Si?), and in my 20s, I've had fun shooting big guns and driving way too fast (Se?). I don't have many S activities that I enjoy without reservation, though, so I don't know. I'm strangely in love with the fantasy of being an SP badass, but I know that I'm not sad: == me). That was one of the things that made me think that I might be an INFJ, like the inferior acting out ... but I could also make a decent case for Fe being my inferior. ... Or for me being an INFJ stuck in an Ni-Ti loop. I don't know. I can't figure it out.

Ok, moving on to intuition. ... I still don't really understand the difference between Ni/Ne. I mean, I "get" it sometimes, like in a moment of clarity, but then I start thinking about it more (through Ti, I believe) and that understanding slips away. So Ti is overriding or shutting down N ... and that happens in other cases too. Ti annoys me sometimes because it won't just leave me alone so I can get lost in N. And Nx is definitely my favorite function. I'm at my happiest when some idea has occurred to me and I'm figuring out all the different aspects of the plan. Usually it's impractical and can be severely detrimental to whatever I'm supposed to be doing, which was especially problematic in school. 

For example, I took a class on urban planning and there was some offhanded mention of company towns. That triggered a years-long obsession with a sort of utopia with a benevolent CEO. Everyone would work for the company (my imagination usually used a publishing company, since that made the most sense within the context of this fantasy), there would be a wonderful environment with a high degree of equality, company-provided housing and goods, loyalty between the company and employees, etc. I created diagrams of the town layout, business plans for how it would work, figured out how to provide employment for spouses, planned quality educational programs for the kids, etc. Even my thesis for that class was focused on the subject, although I had to do it from another angle (with urban planning and business management at the heart of my arguments, instead of my silly utopian dreams). 

But when the subject had initially caught my attention, I was supposed to be doing a paper on another topic for the class. Guess what? That paper was late because I instead spent my time planning my damn dream town. Same thing happened with a class on the American Revolution, when I thought it would be more fun to write an alternative history of the non-U.S. if Britain had won. This is a fun game for lots of wars (I really like war history), and there's a ton of material in the rise of the Third Reich (the subject of a 58-hour audio book that I'm currently listening to). However, my attention span for these activities is far shorter than for ones that really grab me, like the company town.

Whatever fantasy has caught my imagination, the execution almost always screws me up ... and I absolutely hate it. The closest I ever got to achieving something I wanted was with my undergrad education. When I was 15, I decided that I wanted to work in intelligence. So at 17, I started college at one of the top International Relations programs in the country. Great. Then I graduated at 20. I had worked hard to graduate early, even taking 24 credits in my last semester just so I could be done with it. (I was increasingly tired of school and was dying to escape.) And instead of applying to the CIA like I had planned to for years, I chickened out and went in an entirely different direction with something that I didn't even really like (regulatory compliance). Granted, there's much more to the story (like the politicization of intelligence under a presidential administration that I hated **cough**BUSH**cough**, my growing hatred of anything political, and my difficulty in understanding foreign languages when they're spoken), but I still haven't forgiven myself for screwing it up. And I screw up so many things, usually because I get so nervous and aimless ("I don't know what I want, but I know that I don't want _that_ anymore") that I end up just running away and trying to start over somewhere else. No baby steps for me! 

As a result, I've become increasingly anxious about everything and I don't trust my own decisions. (Unless I'm ensnared by my N's this-is-a-totally-awesome-idea-let's-start-right-this-second!, which brings with it a boundless enthusiasm and an optimistic sense that everything will work out well in the end. Seriously, it's like the best drug in the world.) I also make a lot of mistakes because I have a problem taking people seriously when they advise against a particular action. I admit that I've made major life decisions just to spite people who doubted that I'd ever actually do it (and told me that I shouldn't). I think that I have a sort of prejudice against SJ advice that's been shoved at me my whole life, so I tend to disregard any naysayers. I've realized that it can be very detrimental to my success and happiness, but I can't seem to stop doing it. I think that Si irritates me.

Anyway, I think that I've rambled quite enough, but hopefully I provided sufficient information to help you determine my best type fit. I don't expect you to have all the answers for fixing my life (so no pressure!), but even just an outside perspective would go a long way toward restoring some of my mental balance. Thank you so much!


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> I'm driving myself nuts with the back-and-forth of the voices in my head trying to decide my type, so I'm going to extravert a little and ask for help from anyone who's willing to give an opinion. (Pretty, pretty please!)
> 
> Anyway, I think that I've rambled quite enough, but hopefully I provided sufficient information to help you determine my best type fit. I don't expect you to have all the answers for fixing my life (so no pressure!), but even just an outside perspective would go a long way toward restoring some of my mental balance. Thank you so much!


WhoKnows,

Just a few quick questions:

1- Would you consider yourself more of a problem-_solver_ / troubleshooter / analyst or ... more of a person who passionately promotes (or pursues) a great _idea_ (in other words, a problem-_finder_ instead) who tends to feel a bit hostile towards anyone who may show doubt or little belief and enthusiasm for them? 

2-What are your big plans for your life? Your utopic, ideal, unrestrained life, I mean.

3-What would be a well-spent afternoon for you?

4-Which of these do you find to be the greater problem amongst most people (pick the ones that ressonate the most with you): 

a) being gullible and acting like children intellectually; being too vain and love-needing; not able to think logically, being too generous to others even when there are rules that forbid such benevolent acts. 

b) being «wicked», «evil»; doing (usually immoral) things as long as they pay off for them ; love of a 'live fast, die hard' kind of lifestyle, with no spirituality nor symbolism; not loving other _people _enough.


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> I'm at my happiest when some idea has occurred to me and I'm figuring out all the different aspects of the plan. Usually it's impractical and can be severely detrimental to whatever I'm supposed to be doing, which was especially problematic in school.


What exactly do you most want to _figure out_ about these kind of plans?, what would your preferred mental tools be?


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## Impact Calculus (Mar 29, 2012)

ISTP/ESTP

or

INTP/ENTP

-seems the most likely.

Could tell me which one you correspond to more _based on this thread_?

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...ted-sensation-function-si-misconceptions.html


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi, Ludi. Thanks for responding!

1. If I think something is really interesting, I may express surprise and confusion when others disagree. I'd prefer that they agree with me and I may sometimes try to persuade them, but it's not something that I enjoy. Analyzing and exploring ideas is far more interesting, and solving a big problem (like with some cool code) can be such a rush. 

2. In some awesome, ideal life, I would be running towns that enable people to live rich and fulfilling lives. I'd try to screen out all the jerks and there'd be a strong sense of community, so these towns would probably best described as utopias. And once they were founded and running smoothly, I might hand most of the control over to the residents and a council. But the council would probably be my picks, and I'd always be watching to make sure they don't screw things up.

3. In the real world, a well-spent afternoon is extremely productive so I can be proud of what I accomplished (and I'd probably use it as an excuse to be lazy the following day). In an ideal world, I'd spend the afternoon fantasizing about some story in my head or following a random thread on the internet for whatever subject has caught my eye. Time spent learning something new is always time spent well.

4. 'B' people sound like jerks and are a much bigger problem for society. Personally, I don't see the value in a life like that. The legacy that you leave would be superficial (at best) or truly despised (at worst). 

'A' people make me think of political sheep, except for the last part about being generous when you're not allowed to be (a rule which I would gleefully break just to send a big FU to whoever made it). I hate when people are brainwashed and won't think for themselves, but it bothers me mostly because I know that they're being manipulated and handing power over to people who will use it against others. (I don't much care if the power is used against them, since it's their own fault, but it's not fair to indirectly oppress others.) Of course, that opens a whole can of political worms.



Ludi said:


> What exactly do you most want to _figure out_ about these kind of plans?, what would your preferred mental tools be?


I _think_ it's N or T, but I'm not entirely sure. (Whatever it is, it gives me a high.) Maybe you can recognize one of the functions if I give an example?

Recently I got the idea to create a website where you buy somebody's time. (It's basically a commodity anyway, but this would just be a direct transaction like buying 5 hours from a web developer for $150. And then you give them your website to work on for those 5 hours.) Anyway, I didn't do much with it at first. The idea had popped into my head when I didn't have time to deal with it. But a couple weeks later, I got inspired and spent the whole morning figuring out all the pieces. Quickly it moved from a basic transaction service to also including a community with profit-sharing, group health insurance, philanthropy projects, etc. I wrote up copy for the website, outlining the community purpose, policies, etc. But my energy started to flag when I had to work out the numbers. I was fine with percentages, but dealing with real-world concerns like taxes, advertising, etc. were no fun and killed my buzz. Then it wasn't some idealistic idea, but something that I would actually have to build and put into action. And I really didn't feel like coding it all. I considered paying someone else to do it, but that seemed beyond ridiculous when I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself. So I did the design, got bored, and haven't touched the project since.

Does that sound mostly like an N? I think there's some F in there because I was very interested in the community aspect, but that wasn't the fun part. And I can't really say that it was a logical process ... I was kinda just jumping around with whatever ideas popped into my head, but I guess that I could make the case for some T involved.

Thanks again!


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## Impact Calculus (Mar 29, 2012)

Woops, Ni and Si are inf/tert for those types. You probably won't relate very well to either of those.

I think the contrast between both _sets_ of perceiving functions would be better.

Could you let me know which set you relate to more based on what you get from this thread?

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/50007-hopefully-better-discussion-cognitive-functions.html


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi, Impact Calculus. Thanks for replying, and thanks for the links. They were interesting reads.

I really don't think that I use Se as one of my top functions. My ex used Se extensively, which I thought was sexy at first. But after a while it was just annoying, he got on my case for not being more like him, and it became a major source of resentment when I was constantly stuck at home alone with a newborn while he went out playing. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he couldn't just sit still and use his brain instead of his body.

As for my own Se use, it seems pretty limited. I think that the appeal of guns and speeding (which I don't always enjoy) is that it forces me to be in the moment, which is something that I'm rarely capable of. One of my deepest fears is going crazy, which I think stems from what I know is a pretty loose grip on "reality." Things don't feel real to me most of the time, so it seems like it'd be so easy for it all to just slip away.

As for XNTP, those are definitely in the running. Can I ask why you consider them to be likely? I'm pretty doubtful about ENTP, since I don't think that I have the same energy they seem to. But my opinion may be overly affected by a few who were over-the-top enthusiastic. 

Also, would it affect your opinion at all if I were to mention that I've had significant and relatively frequent major depressions? I didn't think to include it earlier because I'm not depressed now (just really anxious), but I've had plenty of experience with suicidal ideation. The last time that I thought about killing myself, it occurred to me that I'm "already dead." That turned partly into a spiritual thing (like Zen Buddhism and my ego being dead) and partly into this idea that my body is just an empty shell. Strangely enough, it's become a weird but really comforting refrain that I use to calm myself down now. It's like some freeing thought. Similarly, I find atheism to be really comforting. Most of the time I believe in my own made-up stuff about the life force and reincarnation and tarot cards and whatnot, but sometimes it's so nice to think that nothing really matters because one day I'll die and that'll be the end of it. I don't mean that in a depressing way, it's just the idea that I might as well not worry about things so much.

From one of your links:
"So say that an INTJ observed that A causes B several times in his/her life. An Ni user will remember an A then B causal relationship very well. Then continues on with life where Se detects A in environment. Then the mind immediately recalls the pattern and the INTJ think "Wait I remember this, B is going to happen now". This is how the predictive ability of Ni works. It is basically anticipating. It's like flipping the patterns you have perceived in past situtions into the future and expecting them to repeat."

I thought that this was Si, which is partly why I related to the INTP description. Would this recognition of the pattern be accompanied by physiological reactions if 'B' was bad in the past? 'Cause that seems like it'd be Si as it was discussed in your other link (when it talks about Si gut feelings).

"As composed to Si/NE with an ISTJ, a Si user collects data and streams them to find equilibrium (basic patterns). When a piece is collected which conflicts with the established pattern Ne kicks in and brainstorms “why did this happen? What holistic change is needed in my equilibrium to be able to include this?” It’s like testing information against a query and updating the structure of the query for future use. The humorous title Inspector given to ISTJs is in referenced to this combination where unique pieces are what catch the eye of the ISTJ."

I don't really get this, but I'm not sure if that's because the Si and Ne roles are flipped. I want to respond to your post now, but I'm going to continue thinking about that and about the Si/Ni post. I'm not really sure which functions I relate to the best, so I'm going to sleep on it. Thanks for the good info!


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## Impact Calculus (Mar 29, 2012)

> Also, would it affect your opinion at all if I were to mention that I've had significant and relatively frequent major depressions? I didn't think to include it earlier because I'm not depressed now (just really anxious), but I've had plenty of experience with suicidal ideation. The last time that I thought about killing myself, it occurred to me that I'm "already dead." That turned partly into a spiritual thing (like Zen Buddhism and my ego being dead) and partly into this idea that my body is just an empty shell. Strangely enough, it's become a weird but really comforting refrain that I use to calm myself down now. It's like some freeing thought. Similarly, I find atheism to be really comforting. Most of the time I believe in my own made-up stuff about the life force and reincarnation and tarot cards and whatnot, but sometimes it's so nice to think that nothing really matters because one day I'll die and that'll be the end of it. I don't mean that in a depressing way, it's just the idea that I might as well not worry about things so much.


Wouldn't affect it at all, but be aware that depression can cause extraverts to seem more introverted. So we would be far less able to better classify you as an ENTP or an INTP based off of energy. 



> I really don't think that I use Se as one of my top functions. My ex used Se extensively, which I thought was sexy at first. But after a while it was just annoying, he got on my case for not being more like him, and it became a major source of resentment when I was constantly stuck at home alone with a newborn while he went out playing. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he couldn't just sit still and use his brain instead of his body.
> 
> As for my own Se use, it seems pretty limited. I think that the appeal of guns and speeding (which I don't always enjoy) is that it forces me to be in the moment, which is something that I'm rarely capable of. One of my deepest fears is going crazy, which I think stems from what I know is a pretty loose grip on "reality." Things don't feel real to me most of the time, so it seems like it'd be so easy for it all to just slip away.
> 
> As for XNTP, those are definitely in the running. Can I ask why you consider them to be likely? I'm pretty doubtful about ENTP, since I don't think that I have the same energy they seem to. But my opinion may be overly affected by a few who were over-the-top enthusiastic.


There are tendencies that arise in people, but any type can be obsessed with athletics. 

However, you do seem very much so like a strong Ti user. If we're certain you're on the Ne/Si axis, then you're either an INTP or ENTP. 

Though, we should probably confirm your perceiving functions before working any further.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't have the same nervous energy as yesterday, but my Fe always thinks that I'm being rude when I'm brief. I do appreciate your help, so please don't interpret it that way.

I don't think that Se is one of my top two functions, and I don't think that I'm an extravert. Did you have any particular reason for keeping those options on the table?

I examined the links that you sent and I gave it all some more thought, but I'm afraid that I still can't determine which perceiving functions I favor most.

Do you know which function(s) would want examples and context for everything? How about where a simple physical stimulus (usually visual) sparks thoughts about interconnectedness and the meaning of life? Or an endless but perhaps bittersweet curiosity about all of the alternative lives that we'll never get to experience? Or earns you exasperated comments about how you "twist everything around" in arguments? Or a love of verbal debate, which flows effortlessly for you and tends to annoy most other people?

I think that I can identify Ne and Si in there, but I'm not sure about others.

Thanks!


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

I'm not one of those overly-enthusiastic ENTPs, but that may be because I have Ti that dominates my Ne from time to time. I also have a much more dominant Ni and a far more removed Fe (probably because I don't honestly give a sh*t anymore; I am polite to most people, but I'm so abrasive when I do speak that I think Fe isn't getting used much). My subconscious issue of Si has reared it's ugly head from time to time, but it depends - although I draw on past experiences more than usual these days, I tend to use my Ti-Ni to decipher it. My Ne comes into play when I start ranting about it and getting off-topic with other things.

I definitely see the argumentative Ne in your description, and since you were attracted to an Se, it may be likely that it's your inferior function. I know far too many NTs that have defaulted to the SPs due to their subconscious desire for Se. It's terribly annoying to those of us that have come to grips with reality - of course, in an SJ/SP-dominant society, it becomes highly unlikely that an NT will choose to be with another NT unless they actually realize how necessary a 'mind-mate' is. Of course, NFs could be useful company too, but with their oft-dominant Fe/Fi, I can't say they won't have difficulties with NTs' Te/Ti. Anyway, I could definitely see Se being your inferior, although since your last marriage to an Se-dominant, it may have been displaced by Si as you suggested. Remembering a difficult past is something you're more likely to do subconsciously anyway; it's why I've seen a lot of depression among those using Si as their tertiary or inferior function.

However, I should add that your stated-inability to think on your feet seems more Ni to me. It makes you ask 'why?' more than Ne, which is bound to make you ask questions like 'why not?'. I use both on a rather daily basis now, so it's easy to see why I have no expectations anymore - just educated guesses that have a disturbing tendency to be right when I don't want them to be.

As for Te/Ti, I do admittedly see more Ti, but society forces more Te-like behavior on us. That trait may have grown on you by now. And Fe/Fi? I'm going to take a wild gander here and say Fi, probably as a tertiary function close to your subconscious Se. I don't know if they're connected, but it seems like those with either Fi/Fe or Si/Se as tertiary/inferior have more bouts with depression than others. I know anyone of any type can undergo depression, but it has always seemed more likely with these types. My grandmother is a suicidal ESTJ that has consistently tried to kill herself; I know equally suicidal INFJs that do the exact same thing, or they fall back into fantasy realms; and INTJs that go into escapism, finding initial comfort in SPs but failing to establish long-term connections - it doesn't stop them though and they have ended up hurting themselves over and over again.


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## Alarox (Jun 12, 2012)

[Edit:] I'm almost positive INTP.

*Dominant: Introverted Thinking
Auxiliary: Extraverted Intuition*
Tertiary: Introverted Sensing
Inferior: Extraverted Feeling

INFP has dominant introverted feeling, and your description certainly doesn't sound like introverted feeling.

INFJ has dominant introverted intuition, but has extraverted feeling (something that still doesn't match your description in my opinion), and you certainly seem to prefer perception > judgement. 

[edit2:] Not sure how I missed this paragraph.



WhoKnows said:


> When I was growing up, *my favorite hobbies were reading (fiction), playing logic games (mostly the grid ones), and drawing floorplans.* That last one might just be a reflection of my environment. We moved every 1.5 to 2 years, so I've been inside a lot of houses. *Every time we toured a house, I could instantly visualize what it could look like with furnishings* (usually not our own stuff) and maybe some upgrades. I sure got tired of moving, *but I loooved walking around the houses and dreaming of what could be. Drawing floorplans felt like an extension of that.* *By drawing some lines on a paper, it's like they'd come alive and embody a life that could be ... one day, for somebody ...*. It's the same feeling I get when walking or driving through a residential neighborhood. I look at a house and I wonder about the life that happens behind those walls. (Windows are particularly fascinating, maybe for some symbolic reason.) Usually these aren't fully formed ideas of people and their lives, but just this odd, vaguely pleasant, slightly sad sense of ... something. It's almost nostalgic. I dunno.


Hello introverted thinking/extraverted intuition.

You're definitely an INTP. There's a reason we're called "The Architect".


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

NovaStar: So you don't really follow the MBTI system with the standard function order? I have questioned it myself. There are some people who seem like perfect representations of a particular type, and yet others refuse to fit into one of the 16 molds. I understand that we're all individuals and special little snowflakes, but it'd be nice to have a framework that accounted for individual variations (even if just allowing for different development patterns in the non-dominant functions). Of course, then it wouldn't be as neat and pretty. How do you feel about the eight-function patterns with archetypes and the shadow four?

I went back and re-read some of Jung's _Psychological Types_, which I haven't done since I first took an interest in typology. The Ti section was quite interesting ... have you other Ti users read it recently or remember it well? Ti apparently does more than I gave it credit for (not necessarily in a good way).

Like this:
"This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts."

I thought this was Fe, although it could be within the context of Ti/Fe:
"Courtesy, amiability, and friendliness may be present, but often with a particular quality suggesting a certain uneasiness, which betrays an ulterior aim, namely, the disarming of an opponent, who must at all costs be pacified and set at ease lest he prove a disturbing element."

And I thought that this was a reflection of Ne realizing all the scenarios in which the statement might be inapplicable or proven wrong:
"His style is usually loaded and complicated by all sorts of accessories, qualifications, saving clauses, doubts, etc., which spring from his exacting scrupulousness."

Maybe I pull into my Ti more than I realize ... which could actually make me quite imbalanced.

Thank you all for your opinions; it seems pretty unanimous that I am indeed a strong Ti user, and INTP seems to be the favored choice. That saves me such a headache from the nagging doubt. It's funny how INTP was the very first type that I identified with, and how I keep trying to disassociate myself from it after repeatedly acknowledging its applicability. I think there's some identity issue buried in there. But this is the first time that I've had anyone else weigh in on the matter, and you've helped enormously. Thank you so much!

If you'd care to chime in on a related matter, would it be your opinion that I should stick with programming? (Focusing on the code-reliant backend instead of the design-heavy frontend.) Being a coding monkey can get boring, though, and I worry about my Ne tripping me up. Do you have other ideas? Or maybe I should focus on my own projects? I love the freedom and the N indulgence, but it's just so hard for me to see things through to completion. Do other NPs have advice on if/how they learned to manage it?


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> Does that sound mostly like an N? I think there's some F in there because I was very interested in the community aspect, but that wasn't the fun part. And I can't really say that it was a logical process ... I was kinda just jumping around with whatever ideas popped into my head, but I guess that I could make the case for some T involved.
> 
> Thanks again!


I do not think you are an INTP...your answers suggest preferences for F and J. Ni would be your dominant cognitive tendency.

A mistake would be understandable...both are Introverted Intuitives...Ti can seem like Ni and Ne can 'imitate' Ne.

If you wish, I may elaborate. Just point out what you least agree with and why not.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Haha, so am I back with INTP vs. INFJ? At least I wasn't crazy for thinking that INFJ could be applicable.

I can't say that I disagree with you, especially since my inability to distinguish INTP and INFJ were at the heart of my request for assistance. But I do identify well with Ti. Would it be possible for you to explain why you think it's Ni instead of Ti? If they look similar, how can you tell them apart? Or were you basing it on me being an FJ?

Thanks for your input!


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## Alarox (Jun 12, 2012)

WhoKnows said:


> Haha, so am I back with INTP vs. INFJ? At least I wasn't crazy for thinking that INFJ could be applicable.
> 
> I can't say that I disagree with you, especially since my inability to distinguish INTP and INFJ were at the heart of my request for assistance. But I do identify well with Ti. Would it be possible for you to explain why you think it's Ni instead of Ti? If they look similar, how can you tell them apart? Or were you basing it on me being an FJ?
> 
> Thanks for your input!


Just my opinion but...

INFJ:

Dominant: Introverted Intuition
Auxiliary: Extraverted Feeling

INTP:

Dominant: Introverted Thinking
Auxiliary: Extraverted Intuition

For one, you seem to use Ne rather than Ni. It's very hard to tell the difference since the process is so similar. Ne seems to be more about possibilities while Ni seems to be more about planning.

*However the bigger indicator of INTP rather than INFJ is that you most certainly use your Ti and yet you haven't shown any definite indication of using Fe.* *The fact that you show the dominant function for a INTP frequently and don't show the auxiliary function of an INFJ significantly shifts the odds in the direction of INTP.
*
----------------

The reason INFJ could cause confusion is your frequent use of Ne/Ni. Fe wouldn't be as important as a discerning factor since Ni is the dominant function you would expect to see. So if any Fe/Fi type could be likely, it would be INFJ. However, I still don't think it's the case at all. The only real link to you is the (obvious) introversion and Ni/Ne.



WhoKnows said:


> So I think that I've identified strong Ti and weak Fe ... but I'm not really convinced that Ti is my dominant function. Whatever I described earlier sure doesn't seem like a logical process. It seems more N or F, but I don't think that I could be an Fx or Ne dom. So that leaves Ni, which I don't wholly understand.


That's the issue. I think you may simply have a very developed Ne. Not necessarily dominant Ne, but to the point where it's normally 70/30 Ti/Ne, but now 60/40 if you catch my drift.


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## starryeyedsky (Jun 16, 2012)

Idk, sounds kind of complicated. Although I can say there's some si in your typings. I think INTP fits you quite well.


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> Hi, Ludi. Thanks for responding!
> 
> 1. If I think something is really interesting, I may express surprise and confusion when others disagree. I'd prefer that they agree with me and I may sometimes try to persuade them, but it's not something that I enjoy. Analyzing and exploring ideas is far more interesting, and solving a big problem (like with some cool code) can be such a rush.
> 
> ...


*Please carry on. What are your thoughts now?*


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Alarox, I believe that you're right about it being Ne rather than Ni. I went looking for more information, and I ended up watching a video from Doctorjuice. Most of it sounded like other stuff that I've read, but then he gave an awesome analogy: Ne is like a supernova while Ni is like a black hole amassing information and building on itself. That sparked a moment of clarity for me, and I definitely prefer Ne to Ni. 

starryeyedsky, I think that you're right about some Si showing. Some recent new interests of mine might be Si-related, so I may be starting a phase of tertiary development.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify, Ludi. I thought over everything, and I'm inclined to think that the INFJishness is a bit of a mirage (for myself as well).

It seemed like your conclusion was mostly based on three things:
1. My distaste for Se;
2. My Fe tendencies; and
3. My J desires.

Last fall, I left a bad long-term relationship with an alcoholic Se-dom. There's a lot to the story, and I still have a ton of residual anger. After all the crap I went through with him, I can't respect someone whose primary purpose in life is nothing more than some immature indulgence of every physical whim. (The "live fast, die hard" person from your original question.)

Now, of course, how could an NP maintain that kind of thinking, since Ne wants indulgence of its intellectual whims? You've gotta do some mental gymnastics, and you might end up with a sort of fake Jness. Not to mention the fact that I'm now a single mother and kinda clueless about how I'm supposed to take care of someone else all by myself for the next 16 years. I feel like I need to be Jish or else I'm a bad mom. But the fact that I couldn't think that I was a J without adding the modifier "unhealthy" shows that I don't make a very good J.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that Se was not the only function for which I was expressing disapproval. That 'B' person could also be using Te (a shadow function for INTP). The phrases "doing (usually immoral) things as long as they pay off for them" and "not loving other people enough" were the reason I said that they could be despicable. I was thinking about Madoff and others who profit from people's misery without giving a damn. I don't think that strong Fe users are the only ones who think that those kinds of people are parasites. (Se was the "superficial" part because I was thinking of entertainers.) 

So I wasn't saying that I would bar strong Te and Se users from my utopia ... just the unhealthy ones. Te and Se are perfectly capable of being lovely functions when they're balanced, just like with the other functions. But why the heck would I want to screw up a good community by introducing into it selfish 'B' people who will try to profit from other people's good will? That would be illogical and could potentially break the system. There has to be trust for it to work.

I really do love the idea of people working together and building something beautiful. And heck yeah, it'd be cool to be the person who made it all possible. It means that your life meant something, which I assume most people want. But I wonder how much of this fantasy is about people themselves and how much is about building an operational system that manages to bring order to the chaos of humanity without resorting to immoral methods. I like the idea of being a benevolent dictator, which is a bit like being a puppeteer. But then I feel bad for degrading the value of human beings, and I start couching it in idealistic terms.

I dunno, I'm just thinking. There are a couple other points that I'd like to examine, like how INTP has an Fe inferior that may manifest itself in personal ambitions. However, I think that further analysis is rather unnecessary at this point. You've been a great help because you verbalized some of the reasons that I had for considering INFJ. But hearing them from someone else kicked me into evaluation mode instead of having another fruitless argument in my own head. So I thank you!

Thanks also to everyone who responded, especially for mentioning which functions I seem to be showing (Ti seemed like a common one). I have a very difficult time judging it myself, so finding out what's apparent to other people is very helpful. I think that this discussion has pretty much solidified INTP in my head. I might have some doubts here and there just because I'm always open to alternative explanations and answers, but I don't think they'll be able to gather as much mental weight as they did before. 

Many thanks to all of you!


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> Many thanks to all of you!


Even by this post alone...you are much more N than T, that is too obvious...


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Ludi said:


> Even by this post alone...you are much more N than T, that is too obvious...


You're much more succinct that I am, so maybe quick answers to bulleted questions would be useful for communication?
* Are you saying that I am not showing much T, or just not as much T as N?
* Would you say that I'm showing Ne and Ti?
* Do you still think that I'm showing a lot of F(e)?


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> You're much more succinct that I am, so maybe quick answers to bulleted questions would be useful for communication?
> * Are you saying that I am not showing much T, or just not as much T as N?
> 
> *I perceive that you rely much more on iNtuition than Thinking; thus, it is not very likely that your temperament be dominated by Ti.
> ...




Excuse me for the late reply...

I have a suggestion... take this test:

Big Five Personality Test

Choose carefully and then publish the results. I think this will be useful information for all concerned in solving your dilemma.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Ludi said:


> Excuse me for the late reply...
> 
> I have a suggestion... take this test:
> 
> ...


No problem at all. Thank you for taking an interest. 

I got RLUEI, if that helps.

However, I think that I have settled on INTP, at least for now. I'm never 100% sure about anything, so I may change my mind at some point in the future. For right now, though, INTP makes sense from what I know about myself and my tendencies.

Thanks again!


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> No problem at all. Thank you for taking an interest.
> 
> I got RLUEI, if that helps.
> 
> ...


The result you've gotten explains:

R - correlates with I
U- c. with P
E- c. with T
I- c. with N

L is the odd one out...it corresponds, but only slightly, to F in jungian typology, I think. So what we can understand is that you are _most _like an INTP than any other type, with (perhaps unsual for INTPs) limbic or «neurotic» pre-dispositions.

Which one description do you relate to the most?

Limbic - Global 5 Primary Type Description

or

Calm - Global 5 Primary Type Description

If it is _limbic_, consider the aforementioned as a sound hypothesis. 

A suggestion: take that test a few more times, it may offer some confirmation.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Ludi said:


> The result you've gotten explains:
> 
> R - correlates with I
> U- c. with P
> ...


It's definitely limbic. I have an anxiety disorder, and the idea of being "calm" is like some sweet fantasy. I'm about to start on medicine for it, so here's hoping ....

I still wonder if I'm INFJ rather than INTP, but it's so hard for me to tell at this point. I consider uncontrollable anxiety to be more of a biological problem than a personality trait, but it could be masking my natural personality-related impulses. I'm going to re-assess in a month or so, when I hope to be less anxious. 

Thanks again for your help!


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## Yomotsu Risouka (May 11, 2012)

WhoKnows said:


> I consider uncontrollable anxiety to be more of a biological problem than a personality trait...


But... personality is biological...


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Tenebrae said:


> But... personality is biological...


True, but there are limits to MBTI's usefulness. I have a lot of fun attributing everything to cognitive functions, but I'm also aware that our physiological responses to stimuli can be separated from our identities. 

By all accounts, I was an extremely mellow baby and toddler. But a traumatic event occurred in my early childhood, and my mother says that I was a different child after that (with regression, volatility, etc.). For as long as I can remember, I've struggled with crippling anxiety that often ends up driving me into a depression. It has never felt like something that is truly a part of me ... it's like a gorilla trying to smother me. I like theories about the inferior function and what role it may play, but intellectualizing and analyzing the problem is an activity that I use to avoid taking action to actually solve the problem. _That_ is probably a reflection of my personality, but I don't think that the anxiety really is.


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## Yomotsu Risouka (May 11, 2012)

WhoKnows said:


> True, but there are limits to MBTI's usefulness. I have a lot of fun attributing everything to cognitive functions, but I'm also aware that our physiological responses to stimuli can be separated from our identities.
> 
> By all accounts, I was an extremely mellow baby and toddler. But a traumatic event occurred in my early childhood, and my mother says that I was a different child after that (with regression, volatility, etc.). For as long as I can remember, I've struggled with crippling anxiety that often ends up driving me into a depression. It has never felt like something that is truly a part of me ... it's like a gorilla trying to smother me. I like theories about the inferior function and what role it may play, but intellectualizing and analyzing the problem is an activity that I use to avoid taking action to actually solve the problem. _That_ is probably a reflection of my personality, but I don't think that the anxiety really is.


Hm. I'd agree that anxiety isn't _part_ of your personality, but I think personality is probably related to its development and expression. Sadly, there hasn't been much research into this, and what little I've found doesn't take cognitive functions into account. Since, for example, INFJ and ESTP have the exact same cognitive functions (though in a different order), that approach could easily fail to find correlation even if it exists.

Despite this, certain correlations have been found. However, with no followup research to determine the causal relationship, the statistics are... difficult to interpret, at best.


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

WhoKnows said:


> I like theories about the inferior function and what role it may play, but intellectualizing and analyzing the problem is an activity that I use to avoid taking action to actually solve the problem. _That_ is probably a reflection of my personality, but I don't think that the anxiety really is.


I can assure you, analyzing the problem isn't necessarily a way of avoiding action; once you've identified the general source of the problem, you can take steps to deal with it. Not everything can be answered with medicine, but give it a shot if you at least need some sort of material reassurance that you have willpower. Actually, a therapist could probably prescribe you something that at least gets rid of most biological obstacles standing between you and a controlled individual that can get anything done. Just watch out for the side-effects.

That said, in all seriousness, don't blame everything (or even the majority of issues) on your biology, or you're making the mistake of limiting yourself to it. Your mind is complex enough to filter out what really is biology and what isn't, but it's just as capable of making you believe that something is physical when - in reality - it's actually psychological. The mind itself is no less real than the body or the brain, and it plays the most integral role in keeping the body functional. If you let it be unimportant, then you honestly won't be capable of controlling yourself every time the need arises.

Your reactions to outside stimuli is not always going to be the same as another person's. Hence the need for Psychology - to study the mind itself and determine the similarities and the differences between various minds. But Sociology focuses on the external factors, which are equally as important; however, not everyone responds to the same shot of stimuli in the same way. With the help of statistical analysis, one can make statements about the commonality of certain reactions over others, but you can't always say that it's true in all cases. You'd be surprised especially by any case study involving a set of extremely similar minds that act completely different.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Tenebrae said:


> I think personality is probably related to its development and expression.


I absolutely agree. I evidently withdrew from the world, except for my outbursts if you tried to get near me. I guess you could call that exaggerated introversion? And now I have severe problems with social phobia. ... Is that kinda where you were headed with your statement?



Tenebrae said:


> Sadly, there hasn't been much research into this, and what little I've found doesn't take cognitive functions into account. Since, for example, INFJ and ESTP have the exact same cognitive functions (though in a different order), that approach could easily fail to find correlation even if it exists.


If we were to use cognitive functions, do you think that the dominant or the inferior function would play a larger role in a child's response to trauma? If our dominant function is pretty much innate and is a guiding force throughout our lives, then wouldn't the inferior also play a large role in our development? In a child's stress response, though, I'm not sure which would be more important. Like you said, it'd be hard to figure out if you just look at types that share the same functions (especially on the primary axis).



Tenebrae said:


> Despite this, certain correlations have been found. However, with no followup research to determine the causal relationship, the statistics are... difficult to interpret, at best.


Thanks for the link! It's interesting that they associated pathology most closely with I/N/T/P. I understand the heavy slant towards introversion, but I was suprised that the T pole was significantly correlated, too. I wonder how much of the data was affected by the large percentage of females. I didn't see a breakdown of the personality types' representation, which seems like useful info.

If I were to pick a personality disorder, I'd say that I'm Avoidant. I guess that's why I lean toward INTP (with inferior Fe) more than INFJ (with aux Fe), since I generally like people and care what they think, but I feel completely inept around them. I can easily turn into a shut-in because the thought of being around people makes my hands shake. ... Okay, that's not a completely honest way to put it. Most people would probably classify me as a shut-in. I even avoid standard employment because I can't bear the thought of facing people every day. 

The funny thing is that I'm completely capable of being charming. When I'm not consumed by my nerves, I can be friendly, flirty, and fun. Even then, I can't maintain the facade for very long and sometimes (often?) I don't understand what people actually want from me ... but the point is that I _can_ do it. 



NovaStar said:


> I can assure you, analyzing the problem isn't necessarily a way of avoiding action; once you've identified the general source of the problem, you can take steps to deal with it. Not everything can be answered with medicine, but give it a shot if you at least need some sort of material reassurance that you have willpower. Actually, a therapist could probably prescribe you something that at least gets rid of most biological obstacles standing between you and a controlled individual that can get anything done. Just watch out for the side-effects.


I probably shouldn't have called it "medicine," since most people don't seem to think about herbs in the same way that I do. I took valerian root for a couple of years in my late teens because my insomnia was becoming a massive problem. The valerian root ended up helping my anxiety, too. I hate swallowing pills, which is why I stopped taking it, but I'm about to reach a breaking point and I've gotta try something. As for therapy ... I went once, realized that I didn't want to "open up," and ended up talking about things that didn't rile up my emotions. As long as I have no emotional connection to the topic, I can often discuss intimate stuff with strangers. But that doesn't seem to be the true point of therapy. 

Really, I'd love to be able to talk to someone and just have the pain and problems disappear. Sometimes a good talk will help for a little while ... but it's not a cure, and it's not like I can subject the useful person to the same conversation whenever I need a fix. Repetitive conversations annoy me, so I'm not going to boo-hoo to someone else with the same crap on a regular basis ... even if I'm paying them to put up with it.



NovaStar said:


> That said, in all seriousness, don't blame everything (or even the majority of issues) on your biology, or you're making the mistake of limiting yourself to it. Your mind is complex enough to filter out what really is biology and what isn't, but it's just as capable of making you believe that something is physical when - in reality - it's actually psychological. The mind itself is no less real than the body or the brain, and it plays the most integral role in keeping the body functional. If you let it be unimportant, then you honestly won't be capable of controlling yourself every time the need arises.


I absolutely agree that the mind-body connection is powerful and important. I get psychosomatic symptoms when I'm under a lot of stress, I think that the placebo effect is actually really cool and useful, etc. However, I'm also very curious about neuropsychology and the biology behind our moods. If someone's upset, I'll tell him that he should cry because it will flush stress hormones from his system and release endorphins to make him feel better. There's a part of me that loves the humanity of the mind, but another part of me is fascinated by the brain itself. 

It seems to be the same duality that allows me to enjoy occult interests and believe in a "life force," even while I'm sort of an atheist who thinks that we're just a collection of chemicals and electrical impulses. The "spiritual" side usually wins out because I think that the latter is kinda heartless and boring, and I choose to believe that there's more to life. Even so, I think that managing my brain's chemical balance is a useful tool for addressing my emotional problems. I'd love to use meditation, diet, exercise, etc., since I think that they're extremely useful for the proper care of our brains ... but I just don't seem to have enough discipline or interest to really do it. 




NovaStar said:


> Your reactions to outside stimuli is not always going to be the same as another person's. Hence the need for Psychology - to study the mind itself and determine the similarities and the differences between various minds. But Sociology focuses on the external factors, which are equally as important; however, not everyone responds to the same shot of stimuli in the same way. With the help of statistical analysis, one can make statements about the commonality of certain reactions over others, but you can't always say that it's true in all cases. You'd be surprised especially by any case study involving a set of extremely similar minds that act completely different.


Well, life experience would certainly play a role. And you could argue that experience has primed you to react a particular way to stimuli, whether you consciously recall the experience or your brain was somehow affected during previous exposure. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If two people were to have the same life experiences, the same personality, and the same brain chemistry ... what's left to make them react differently? Obviously, no two people do have all of those things in common, which is why you'd get variations in their reactions.


... I just looked up Avoidant Personality Disorder. Wow. Maybe I _should_ go see a shrink. It's interesting that this post on dom-tert loops attributes Avoidant Personality Disorder to an Fi-Si loop. INFP was the only INXX personality type that I never really considered. I have a hard time seeing myself as an F-dom, especially Fi-dom. You don't think that I am, do you? I also don't think that I'm an ISTJ, although I'm sometimes jealous of Si types. I guess it seems like life would be so much easier with strong Si, especially in our culture.

If I were to open up the possibilities to all 16 types and we were to take my anxiety (and my reaction to it) into account, which type would you say that I am? (I'm quite tired today, but I think that I've been honest in what I've said. I'm not sure if it's shown a different side to my personality.)

Thanks!


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## Ludi (Dec 25, 2011)

WhoKnows said:


> I
> 
> 
> ... I just looked up Avoidant Personality Disorder. Wow. Maybe I _should_ go see a shrink. It's interesting that this post on dom-tert loops attributes Avoidant Personality Disorder to an Fi-Si loop. INFP was the only INXX personality type that I never really considered. I have a hard time seeing myself as an F-dom, especially Fi-dom. You don't think that I am, do you? I also don't think that I'm an ISTJ, although I'm sometimes jealous of Si types. I guess it seems like life would be so much easier with strong Si, especially in our culture.
> ...


Although avoidance and anxiety are not necessarily the same thing...I reckon that, in jungian typology, the Introverted Perceiving types are the most likely to present avoidant personality traits (IFP types slightly more).

You may also want to check these two:

Personality-Based Diagnostic Taxonomy

Personality Subtypes Summary


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

WhoKnows said:


> Well, life experience would certainly play a role. And you could argue that experience has primed you to react a particular way to stimuli, whether you consciously recall the experience or your brain was somehow affected during previous exposure. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If two people were to have the same life experiences, the same personality, and the same brain chemistry ... what's left to make them react differently? Obviously, no two people do have all of those things in common, which is why you'd get variations in their reactions.


Admittedly, I also believe in cause and effect, but let's say these individuals have all spoken to other people. Taking what they hear from other peoples' experiences, they begin to see or understand the world in different ways. One sees the inherent hypocrisies, another sees the best, and yet another sees possibilities. Now let's say they were shown a picture; each one focuses on the part that reminds them of their viewpoint. Now, let's still say they have the same general personality (I'll use ENTP for this example; we're surprisingly different, particularly between age levels), they were all raised in the same home, they went through school (and their entire lives) together. However, with the advent of the internet, they were able to learn about these viewpoints outside their own lives.

Why would they choose those mindsets when they've all lived a pretty good life? Perhaps philosophy just sparks something in all of them, no matter what form it comes in. Perhaps they all saw a more effective trio in themselves if each could argue different viewpoints from the ones they were raised in. Perhaps they all came to the conclusion that the world needs it's cynics, it's optimists, and it's objective theorists. Or perhaps they decided they should all take on certain chores in the same household to make sure it all gets done (different example, but the same general idea applies here).

People can choose no matter what the outside world does to them should they think it's important enough. They could seek out alternative experiences of others and begin to base their own philosophies around those, so long as it's for a greater purpose. So although they all have had the same experiences (we can say they all listened to various cynics, optimists, and theorists simultaneously), they could still CHOOSE to take on something different from each other for the betterment of the group's understanding. In a real life example, I chose to take on the role of the objective thought-provoker early on in my life because there were usually none around me. I went against everything because of a choice, and I must say, it was hard at first because I was fighting against my basic need to just ignore those hard questions in life - by staying simple, I could've led a better, happier life. But I chose not to, despite having an environment that encouraged such happiness.

For most people, the choice would come out of ego, self-interest, or maybe an innate 'biological' selflessness. I know for a fact that I don't give a shite if I'm right or wrong (otherwise, I wouldn't be willing to make compromises or learn anything from others); I tend to forget my own needs, like food (unless I'm about ready to fall over unconscious, or if it interferes with my work); and although I admit that I want to see my work benefit others, I honestly don't care enough about other people to push it (and it's the furthest thing from introversion that does that). People here wonder if I was born in the right area, since they say I should've been born in New York; then someone from there said that I should've been born in England; then someone from there said I should've been born in France; and I can go on, but I won't. I just don't get how I seem not to fit in with most groups whatsoever; and even though I have an soc/sx instinctual stacking, I honestly don't try hard to fit into a group whatsoever.

Anyway, don't discount the human capability of individual consciousness. Biology just causes higher 'chances' of certain mindsets or activities, but the intangible mind can still dominate. I'm not ignoring the fact that some of my actions and thoughts aren't the result of simple chemical reactions to the environment, but it seems like other thoughts come out of seemingly nowhere, even when I carefully analyze them. So I know there's something more in me than just a bag of blood and guts - I just can't quite figure out what it is yet. If it was a 'soul', I'd love to figure out a way to measure and analyze it, but science is still stuck in a highly 'concrete reasoning' stage. Too bad I'll probably die before it advances (if it does at all).


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## Alediran (Aug 31, 2011)

You could be an INFP, though an unbalanced one. I've met another female INFP that struggles with many of the issues you also have (the anxiety for example, she can barely stand using public transport because of all the people in there, while I have no issues with them). 

You also mentioned some details about the system you were developing that strike me more as things that would be considered by a Fi user (the social aspects of the system). I would like you to also consider that I work as a code monkey (and I'm an INFP, but problem solving and the mental work feeds my Ne like few things can, except for novelties) and it is ironic that my most prized skills are my technical instead of socials, but that is to be expected of Fi as it has a very hard time dealing with people and I don't have an auxiliar Se to compensate, so most of the time I tend to miss social cues.

Check this thread to see a comparison between Ti and Fi: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/3074-ti-v-fi-closer-look.html. In particular read the last post of the first page.


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you guys for your help. I've been digging down deep, and I'm finding some interesting answers.

Thanks again!


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## Alediran (Aug 31, 2011)

So, what have you found out?


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## Coyote (Jan 24, 2012)

Alediran said:


> So, what have you found out?


I haven't quite got it settled yet, but I can share what I have so far. 

Studying Jung's writings helped a LOT. (For example, I now know that I'm definitely not an Ni-dom.) The most interesting discoveries that I made were:
1) Jung's Ti would probably be considered T+N in MBTI; and
2) Jung's Si is actually pretty cool.

Thank you for sharing your experience with Fi, since it encouraged me to really give consideration to the Fi section of Jung's work.  However, I struggled to recognize it in myself. I believe that my feeling function is extraverted.

Ti and Si are the functions that I most strongly identify with. I don't think that my intuition function has been differentiated enough to have an orientation, so it's just N. And I'm still inclined to say that Fe is my inferior function, since I have it but tend to use it really badly. So right now, I think that my stack is Ti-Si-N-Fe. (The rule about I-E-I-E is an MBTI thing.)

I'm not completely sure, though. It's possible that Si is actually my dominant function. ... Did you ever see _A Beautiful Mind_, with Russell Crowe? That movie touched a nerve with me because I have this fear that I'll lose touch with reality and won't even realize it. Basically, I'm afraid that I'll go crazy. And honestly, that's not an impossibility, because reality doesn't feel _real_ to me. So I was highly amused by this part of the Si description:


Jung said:


> The results of this are, on the one hand, a feeling of complete depreciation on the part of the object, and, on the other, an illusory conception of reality on the part of the subject, which in morbid cases may even reach the point of a complete inability to discriminate between the real object and the subjective perception.


So anyway, I don't know that I have a real MBTI type. MBTI's Si is all mixed up with the SJ types, which I definitely am not. The INTP description fits me the best, even if it's not the most accurate representation of the functions involved. So I dunno what I'll do about that. But I'm having fun with Jung's types, so I'm not too concerned about it.


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