# too far gone for redemption?



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Stickman said:


> Don't worry, because someone is more worried than you.
> Don't be sad, because someone is sadder than you.
> 
> What if I told you that some people are happier than you?roud:


Well you should probably worry about that.


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## Stickman (Sep 30, 2012)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Well you should probably worry about that.


It keeps me up at night.:dry:


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## karibaby (Dec 31, 2013)

i cant play the piano said:


> i don't think i've ever tried. i never had to. in the past i could get by on natural talent and skill (and lying and cheating) but now that i'm older and life's harder my usual tactics just don't cut it anymore. i'm still doing okay. i can land jobs fairly easily and friends aren't too difficult to come by but the jobs aren't all that great and the friendships are shallow and short-lasting. i can't hold down anything. not jobs, not friends, not relationships, not dreams.
> 
> i've suffered from depression for as long as i can remember. i know that isn't an excuse but it makes turning my life around a real challenge. i (probably) have BPD and the two overlap in some areas, depression and BPD, but i struggle to figure out which spawned from which and if neither spawned from the other then what spawned both?
> 
> ...


you're sooo young I think you should only be worried about this if you're on your deathbed and didn't realize this about yourself until after you were dead. Anyways read this article about silencing your inner story teller https://medium.com/social-encounters/want-to-shift-gears-get-to-point-zero-a00e65e494a6#.wcp5q5pkj


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

1. Accept your darkness. I said the best day ever was when I had that major panic attack. Well the day I accepted my dark side and my wrongful thoughts is when I really became content with myself.

2. The way you are gives you a very perosnal perspective which can be used for great things. I almost feel like some of us are sort of put upon this planet to yes, maybe carry a harder life, a mind that self-sabotages, but at the same time can help other's, can accept those whoa re in deep need of acceptance because we understand and can just leave a unique mark on the world. 

3. I really don't know how depression feels so I can't imagine that. I do know how extreme pain feels, how apathy feels (or rather doesn't feel), how hopelessness, self-hatred, disgust with everything feels. I used to again feel like it shouldn't be like that, that i have to get away from it. But now I am actually glad when I'm sad because It is energizing. It is alive. It isn't apathy which is almost like death. I fell in love with what comes the most natural to me - feeling. Anything really. Just feeling.

I kinda think we are quite similar and I really wish I could just explain you how my mindset almost compeltely changed one, two, thre day!
I used to also be so angry at the world for being so cruel, but once I decided not to judge it but understand it - I have a hard time being angry anymore. If anything - I am inlove with it, it's complexities. There needs to be a little detachment of yourself at times I guess to take a birds eye at the world and you in it to notice how everything makes fuckign sense and how wonderful it is. Brother's and sister's, everyone surviving, everyone driving for thriving.

There's also something else I have been thinking lately that relates. I'm still messed up in some ways. Messed up if you wanna compare it to the average Jane from a great family with great capacities of coexisting with other's. And I thought - why do i have to become that? Why can't I just embrace whatever my messed upness is best at and thrive my own way? I dream of creating a warm family, of being the best mom ever, but chances are I wouldn't be bbecause I don't know how to and my dream comes from a void of my messed-up nature anyway. So maybe being conscious of it I should just not focus on it and go do that which my messedupness has helped me be so good at - acceptance, non-commital exloration of life, curiosity to understand. That dream has not been showing to ever work out very greatly anyway, I'm just chasing possibly the impossible. And ''fixing'' myself seems like way too much painful work with no guarantee of success.

One thing to be careful of though... if you want to actually cuz whatever dude like.... embrace that too, consciously....
Anywho.... is not to get too attached to sadness and negativity because it gets you attention. I know this thought pattern very well. This sad thought pattern that deludes you into thinking this is your identity so you search for people who will come and love this you! You don't almost wanna let go of this pattern because it gets you desired attention. 

Ehh, I wish I could find words for it but here is someone who has been in a psychological and emotional self-fulfilled shithole and has found a pretty sweet viewpoint that took her out of it to an extent. But I really can't. You seem to be self-aware enough to know what to do and where to look once you know HOW TO look. So I'm gonna try to find the words for it eventually...

-----------------------------------

Read through my answer and I talk about myself a lot. It's really written for you and about you, just trying to explain a POW through personal experiences.


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)




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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

Stickman said:


> Don't worry, because someone is more worried than you.
> Don't be sad, because someone is sadder than you.
> 
> What if I told you that some people are happier than you?roud:


Uhh, yes. This thing ''there's someone in a worse situation than you''. I hate that mindset. It invalidates your personal experience (which sure sounds like such a selfless thing but is bullcrap, really. Can lead to burried issues). So only the man with the shortest stick can feel shitty - uhh, all right. Everyone else's just a wanky whiner. Let's party.


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## piano (May 21, 2015)

@Shameless Nation that was a thoughtful response so i wanted to reply as soon as i could.

haha there is no need to apologise at all. there's nothing wrong with talking about yourself, even in advising someone else. it's something i do quite often myself. if i take time out of my day to listen to and advise someone, it's because i relate to them on a personal level. so when it comes time to give them advice, i tackle the issue from a personal perspective, ergo i talk about myself. that's just how some people relate to others. there's a difference between talking about yourself for the sake of talking about yourself, and advising someone through the lens of your own experiences. what you were doing falls into the latter category. you wrote so much and you shed light on things i hadn't even thought of before and you even touched on your own personal struggles and that openness and willingness to help is very much appreciated, so don't ever feel like you have to apologise for something like that.

in the same way it's difficult for you to comprehend the full scope of my suffering, it is difficult for me to comprehend yours, so i'm sorry if i'm out of line for saying this, but i don't agree that you can't become a good mother. nor that you can't have the warm family you've always dreamed of having. i find that it's usually the people who are most hesitant about having kids, that turn out to be the most fitting for the job. not always, but usually. they understand the difficulties and responsibilities that come along with having a child and that in itself speaks volumes because, to me, it shows that they don't take it lightly, that they don't want to follow through until they _know_ they're ready.

however i think it's great that you're putting all your focus right now on finding and bettering yourself. everything else will fall into place eventually. if this thread has taught me anything (which is an understatement because these lovely people have taught me quite a lot) it's that it's not a matter of being broken and having to fix oneself, but of embracing and even polishing the self one has. like layers on an onion, except instead of peeling off layers you're adding them.

i don't like to use my negative experiences as a method to garner attention or affection from others, though i understand that there are people who do. it's the dark aspects of myself that have pushed the ones i love away in the past. i went through an especially hard time in my last year of high school and when i lost myself, was when i lost everything. i lost my friends, my grades, my hobbies, even my family members distanced themselves from me. it felt as though the moment i brought up a negative feeling or concern i had, people ran for the hills. so if i can help it, i keep my negative/dark thoughts to myself. if i do talk or write about it it's because i need to get it out of my system before i lose it, or because i'm seeking some form of help/advice/assistance. 

it's true that i like attention as much as the next person (more so, even) but i don't like negative attention and i would never use negative past or present experiences/feelings as a means to get it. if i'm confronted by conflict that is neither necessary nor light-hearted i get really anxious. positivity attracts, negativity repels. people who are attracted to negativity in others are either equally as damaged or predator-like. there's nothing wrong with the former but my experience tells me it makes getting better a lot more difficult.

it reminds me of a quote i read by... well, google is telling me plato said it. i think you'll like it. it's one of my favourites: "You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation." i've always kind of lived by it. well... not lived by it, but it's a quote that resonates with me deeply. it didn't introduce a new idea to me, it just put into words an idea i've always had but could never articulate myself. it's through the mutual exchange of laughter and positivity that i've built the most beautiful, deep, and meaningful friendships. getting out of The Slump, as i like to call it, is such a challenge when you've been in it for so long. what draws me back in every time is the safety, the comfort, the knowledge that "hey the reason i'm not where i want to be isn't because i can't do it but because i don't want to do it!" okay so the last bit is a half-joke but there's an element of truth to every joke. anxiety, fear of failure and rejection, laziness. put the three together and you have me.

if there's one thing i'm happy about it's that i learned a hell of a lot about myself when i was deep into my depression. now it just comes in short and intense bursts rather than long and drawn out periods of misery and self-pity. when i made this thread i was totally and completely 200% off my rocker.

this part of your post in particular touched me, and i think it's what drove me to reply to you asap:



Shameless Nation said:


> 1. Accept your darkness. I said the best day ever was when I had that major panic attack. Well the day I accepted my dark side and my wrongful thoughts is when I really became content with myself.
> 
> 2. The way you are gives you a very perosnal perspective which can be used for great things. I almost feel like some of us are sort of put upon this planet to yes, maybe carry a harder life, a mind that self-sabotages, but at the same time can help other's, can accept those whoa re in deep need of acceptance because we understand and can just leave a unique mark on the world.
> 
> 3. I really don't know how depression feels so I can't imagine that. I do know how extreme pain feels, how apathy feels (or rather doesn't feel), how hopelessness, self-hatred, disgust with everything feels. I used to again feel like it shouldn't be like that, that i have to get away from it. But now I am actually glad when I'm sad because It is energizing. It is alive. It isn't apathy which is almost like death. I fell in love with what comes the most natural to me - feeling. Anything really. Just feeling.


it lines up with some of my own opinions/thoughts and in a time where i can't tell right from left or up from down, it helped. so thank you. seriously.


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## piano (May 21, 2015)

Shameless Nation said:


>


i love this video, and i love his nervous stutter and mannerisms. it made the video that much better, hearing this speech from someone who is experiencing/has experienced exactly what he's preaching. vulnerability and authenticity. this video was the cherry on top.

also he's a total babe


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

@i cant play the piano will respond at a more convenient time today with an edit
but the video - yeah. When I first watched a video of his, i thought - hello. Have I met my soulmate? But seems like he has a lot of soulmates


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

i cant play the piano said:


> @Shameless Nation
> in the same way it's difficult for you to comprehend the full scope of my suffering, it is difficult for me to comprehend yours, so i'm sorry if i'm out of line for saying this, but i don't agree that you can't become a good mother. nor that you can't have the warm family you've always dreamed of having. i find that it's usually the people who are most hesitant about having kids, that turn out to be the most fitting for the job. not always, but usually. they understand the difficulties and responsibilities that come along with having a child and that in itself speaks volumes because, to me, it shows that they don't take it lightly, that they don't want to follow through until they _know_ they're ready.


Yeah, absolutely. Same way as compassion - those who have suffered the most often have the most potential for patience and compassion as you need to know darkness to recognise light. And everyone knows darkness. But the more pitch black the night, the lighter rays of light. 
But here's the slippery slope - Only if you are conscious, self-aware. It's nothing new that people who come from troubled past repeat it, because the troubled past has taught them the ways to live. It's ingrained in the unconscious. Families of generations of criminals, abusers, anything.... 
Self-awareness is the biggest of blessings, i think, and I admire anyone who strives for it.
Jung himself said "_“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” _ and ain't that the biggest truth. And how do you make the unconscious conscious? By not fearing to look at all the corners of yourself - bad and good. Chronic sadness adn self-hatreds a tendency to make you fear seeing the good. It's also the most honorable and selfless thing one can do I think - get to know your demons so they don't ruin other people behind your back. And you seem to have a focus on that too so I doubt you will be a slave to yourself and you aren't too far gone for redemption.
In my case though I just really fear screwing up motherhood. That would be the biggest fail of my life. But when I imagine having a little popsicle to love and take care of - I cry.



> However i think it's great that you're putting all your focus right now on finding and bettering yourself. everything else will fall into place eventually. if this thread has taught me anything (which is an understatement because these lovely people have taught me quite a lot) it's that it's not a matter of being broken and having to fix oneself, but of embracing and even polishing the self one has. like layers on an onion, except instead of peeling off layers you're adding them.


I think it's good to understand the layers and look behind them - know them. But peeling off layers is a lot more complicated than that. There's this awesome spiritual teacher Teal Swan. She goes into a shit ton of unnecessary yada yada meta ideas, but her way of dealing with issues is fantastic I think. She's not the delusional "positive thinking, ignore everything negative" profit, but she really suggests you to become content with reality and find a better relationship with life's negativities. Not ignore them just develop your relationship with it. It's the people who fear darkness and sadness that push it away so delusionally. When is fear ever good? What will you do one day when there's no more extra place to freeze the dark matters? Break down and die probably!
Ohh, she also talks about going inside yourself, back to memories that are the root of your negative thought patterns, facing them and instead of erasing them (with ignorance) but changing them. That you have the power to correct your memories to how it should have been. Haven't gotten that far - that's where I become fearful too.



> It felt as though the moment i brought up a negative feeling or concern i had, people ran for the hills.


Fuck dose pussies. They are not friends. 



> So if i can help it, i keep my negative/dark thoughts to myself. if i do talk or write about it it's because i need to get it out of my system before i lose it, or because i'm seeking some form of help/advice/assistance.


You surely know or will know better, but the reason I bring this up is because as a type 4 we tend to seek for self identity in everything, so this can turn into a rat circle that you want someone to come and save you (in any way, really. Not just romantically), but at the same time you are clinging and identifying with that which you need to be saved from. And with identifying with it you also try to relate to other's with it. It ends up being this situation where - someone came to save you, you feel like - yayyyy, they love me for me, they are here to make it better for me- but then you don't wanna get better because you will loose that which attracted them in the first place.... 

A personal story on the matter again: I once observed myself starting to identify as someone who loves reading cuz I got back into reading again. Started using goodreads.com to get more into it you know. But browsing I noticed people who were way more of avid readers and it made me angry. Tracing back my thougts and feelings - it made me angry because them being better at something that I am now identifying with devalued my personality. And while I was identifying with this reading stuff, I noticed myself dreaming and fantasizing about a guy finding me irresistable because of this "identity characteristic". As in - uuu, wow, shes such a reader, so deep, yummmm. So when in the picture came the fact that there's someone who has this very same quality he would be attracted to - and is even better at it - I felt very threatened. Like this hypothetical lover just left me for someone else because that someone else was better at being the me that he got attracted to.
It's really funny actually we 4s can be ridiculous ^_^



> it's true that i like attention as much as the next person (more so, even) but i don't like negative attention and i would never use negative past or present experiences/feelings as a means to get it. if i'm confronted by conflict that is neither necessary nor light-hearted i get really anxious. positivity attracts, negativity repels. people who are attracted to negativity in others are either equally as damaged or predator-like. there's nothing wrong with the former but my experience tells me it makes getting better a lot more difficult.


I actually do get attracted to negativity, mostly sexually though, cuz it makes me feel secure, like I wont have to look into the other's eyes, see a perfectly healthy, loving soul and in their reflection see my fuckedupness. It's just so much easier... But not good, or something to pride on and repeat, for sure.



> it reminds me of a quote i read by... well, google is telling me plato said it. i think you'll like it. it's one of my favourites: "You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation." i've always kind of lived by it. well... not lived by it, but it's a quote that resonates with me deeply. it didn't introduce a new idea to me, it just put into words an idea i've always had but could never articulate myself. it's through the mutual exchange of laughter and positivity that i've built the most beautiful, deep, and meaningful friendships.


That is a wonderful quality then. Something very healthy 

I'm glad this was just a down moment for you. Good to explore those and understand of course. I think you wrote also about feeling lost in life, with no direction? There's a thread on this subforum about "so what do i do with my life" and in one comment there's a really cool article that is helping me now. Maybe you saw it already. Can't copy it now...


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

Also - why It really upsets me when people are ignorant of their own darker side and fear it - they will oroject that on other's. They won't approach people with full empathy and compassion (this should not be mixed with letting shit behavior slide because uhh compassion. You can be compassionate, understanding, yet also recognize that beahviors have to change).
So when someone shows their negative aspects, those other's will demonize, will emotionally and verbally crucify. "How can you be like that? Horrible, you have to change". So this basically sets the mindset - unless you change and become that kind of a person, get to that point - you are horrible and shouldn't be accepted." So then the person goes on with a mindset that they can only be good people once they get to a soecific point or even better - become someone else.
And again - this does not mean allowing for shitty behavior, but allowing a person to become content with themselves and recognize how they are affecting other's and then with the same compassion and empathy try to be better. I can already hear other's crying - compassion achieves nothing. Sure, compassion alone doesn't, it just pitty strokes the other's back, but it can coexist with firm criticism. 

I mean, we are like pilots of an ariplane and that airplane is ourselves. And just like in most airplanes - there are passenger's too. So you better fucking learn how that airplane works and how it flies or you are for sure endangering other's.


Lol, sorry. This thread ha shelped me too - I've had so many thoughts on these topics and now it's just coming out in a ramble, but they are certainly refining. So thank you for making and not abandoning this thread. But sorry for spamming it so much. Stuff like this gets me thinking ^_^

I guess the very core idea that I was trying to describe was the same old already recognized - do not look at your character flaws as you being fuckedup and somehow less of a person. Even though I used to describe that about myself too, I haven't attached as negative of a notion to this word.


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## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

@Shameless Nation



> Also - why It really upsets me when people are ignorant of their own darker side and fear it - they will project that on other's. They won't approach people with full empathy and compassion (this should not be mixed with letting shit behavior slide because uhh compassion. You can be compassionate, understanding, yet also recognize that beahviors have to change).


Sometimes it is best to keep someone's darker side hidden. While I am aware of MINE, I do fear it. In regards to projecting that onto others I'm not sure what you mean? I'm one to approach with full empathy and compassion, it's how I deal with my bad side. Now that I'm replying to you, I think I'm as empathetic, compassionate, and as caring as possible in order to compete with my aggression. I almost have total control, but it does almost slip out. I hate when it does. I think that's what you were saying? I'm also totally talking about myself, and think saying bad side and dark side is cheesy...Darth Shameless. 



> So when someone shows their negative aspects, those other's will demonize, will emotionally and verbally crucify. "How can you be like that? Horrible, you have to change". So this basically sets the mindset - unless you change and become that kind of a person, get to that point - you are horrible and shouldn't be accepted." So then the person goes on with a mindset that they can only be good people once they get to a specific point or even better - become someone else.


I do this to myself...because my situation is different, but I also can relate to almost everything you're saying, even in your previous posts. I'm interpreting this as you talking about self chatter and self introspection...the little demons that take you for a ride. The harder you try to pull out the more they pull you in. It may not be depression but it's certainly depressing. Best thing to do is let them flow as thoughts and thoughts only...not part of yourself. I think you said that?



> And again - this does not mean allowing for shitty behavior, but allowing a person to become content with themselves and recognize how they are affecting other's and then with the same compassion and empathy try to be better. I can already hear other's crying - compassion achieves nothing. Sure, compassion alone doesn't, it just pitty strokes the other's back, but it can coexist with firm criticism.


Reading through your comment in detail is like solving a cryptex...about myself. You're right about compassion. When you say "pitty strokes the other's back" what do you mean?



> I mean, we are like pilots of an ariplane and that airplane is ourselves. And just like in most airplanes - there are passenger's too. So you better fucking learn how that airplane works and how it flies or you are for sure endangering other's.


Boom! Bravo. After reading back over my reply I see every reason to delete it because it looks like it was written by me to myself, differently. It's like you hid thousands of personal details inside a simple piece of text...that I found difficult to read.


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## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

Sometimes from these feelings can grow a bitter resentment toward life itself....so I would suggest just trying to find something about yourself to hold onto and present outward more and at least you're capable of socializing well enough to make friends, even if shallow ones (for now, eventually bound to find a worthy and long lasting friendship), so don't allow that bitter resentment to start growing....it's even worse than what you're feeling now and makes _everything _seem/feel _completely _hopeless, trust me.


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## Angina Jolie (Feb 13, 2014)

Sorry for spamming again. Warning of a long incoming ramble. @spidershane


* *







spidershane said:


> Sometimes it is best to keep someone's darker side hidden. While I am aware of MINE, I do fear it. In regards to projecting that onto others I'm not sure what you mean?


You know how when you fear something you start seeing it in everything only encouraging the anxiety? It's like a protective instinct. You fear i because you see it as danger, and your whole consciousness shifts to protecting yourself from the danger. This is a common notion in psychology and it's ok if you don't trust that, but projecting is meant as seeing into other that which is relatable. So if you find someone to be annoying and attention seeking - chances are you are annoyed by it in the other person because you dislike it in yourself. Our perception is relative to our understanding of the world - and that is often subjective.
This is, of course, debatable, but these are all such subjective experiences - just gotta think about it and try to see if you can notice it in yourself.
I remember once in the INFP subforum there was a thread about whether other's often have evil thoughts. Most said yes. Are most of them evil people? But there was one person who got really upset and scared and angry of the others admitting to their evil thoughts. I would bet 99% chance the person is very self-deluded, fears the evil in herself therefore projects it and ends up fearing evil in other's so much.
I mean it's kinda ridiculous. We cognitively make sense of the world, constantly. This process just happens, you can't choose of what you are gonna make sense of next when there are so many layers to your consciousness. Evil thoughts that are trying to make sense of the world will certainly run through your mind. That shouldn't make you a bad person - whether you disrespect the rest of the world and act upon them should. If one bases their judgment of bad and evil on what kind of thoughts from the gazillion daily thoughts that run through their mind - then yeah. They'll find themselves to be bad people once a single bad thought sneaks in, and they will find everyone else horrible too. 
So this is where in my opinion and personal experience (of getting content and feeling so much better) comes in - accept the fact that there are things that would be considered messed up about you, there are negative thoughts that will enter your mind, but if you get to know yourself, why and how they come there, you gain control of them. Pull them from subconscious influencers to conscious awareness. And BOOM - self acceptance. Cuz now you have control over being a good samaritan by choosing no to act upon them. Isn't that just beautiful ^_^



> I'm one to approach with full empathy and compassion, it's how I deal with my bad side. Now that I'm replying to you, I think I'm as empathetic, compassionate, and as caring as possible in order to compete with my aggression. I almost have total control, but it does almost slip out. I hate when it does. I think that's what you were saying? I'm also totally talking about myself, and think saying bad side and dark side is cheesy...Darth Shameless.


Darth Shameless  Bad side and dark side do sound cheesy, but what's the alternative? I think I'm maybe using too many concepts to describe the same notion and it can be confusing. But you know - the unpleasant side of existance... all that kinda jazz.

My bad also slips out from time to time. I don't know myself to the fullest. But hell I'm so much further in the process once I decided to without fear and judgment explore those corner's of my mind that feel shameful to explore. With full control - it's just my mind. 
So like I said in the previous post - the getting angry at a random person on internet just because they read more than me - If I didn't have the curiosity to understand WHY do I feel angry and how did I arrive to that feeling - I would just keep feeling angry and lost with my identity. But once I decided to face that anger - I ended up laughing and in such joy of how silly this all is. 
I've been angry and jealous with people on here too only to come to realization of why and not beign able to take that jealousy seriously anymore. Then I just wanted to hug them all, my brother's and sister's of this crazy journey. 




> The little demons that take you for a ride. The harder you try to pull out the more they pull you in.


Yeeees. Better to get to know the enemy so it can't surprise you. Don't leave them to decide your ''fate''.



> It may not be depression but it's certainly depressing. Best thing to do is let them flow as thoughts and thoughts only...not part of yourself. I think you said that?


Yeeeesh. Don't let them define you I mean. They are just thoughts coming there for one reason or another. There are way more layers to you than that, wonderful, cheerful, compassionate layers and potential.

Again a personal short story to explain this better: I experienced a really crazy panic attack once. It was almost like an out of body experience. Got there because of the negative thought patterns I wasn't aware of. In the panic attack I was almsot looking at myself have these crazy thoughts of needign to kill myself right then and there or otherwise other's will get hurt. WHAT? Again - WHAT? That's crazy. But then it ended, I could look back at it calmly and realize - those were some crazy thoughts that I cannot relate to right now at all. They were just there, almost independent of me. trying to make sense of something. There were 2 me's really - the one having those thoughts and the one realizing those thoughts.



> When you say "pitty strokes the other's back" what do you mean?


Pitty stroking - validating their behavior. ''It's ok, I understand, that really sucks. Yeah it's understandable.'' And that's it. They are left feeling like they had a right to be shitty cuz it's understandable. ''I understand where you came from and I do feel for your pain, but realize that you have a choice to behave one way or another in that moment and you chose to behave the wrong way''. That sounds better to me. Understanding, but still critical and letting the other know that they did not control their actions when they could. At least now, next time they can.



> Boom! Bravo. After reading back over my reply I see every reason to delete it because it looks like it was written by me to myself, differently. It's like you hid thousands of personal details inside a simple piece of text...that I found difficult to read.


Hih. Difficult as in hard to accept? 
I know my writing style can be messy and I take thousands of pages to explain something. But I kinda need to, cuz there are so many thoughts relating to this one subject. Eventually though, as we can see, it leads to a a nice little analogy. But I could never come to one explanatory point without going through pages of useless crap 

i hope it was helpful. I think about this stuff daily, obsessively. Kinda like my passion so I do have a lot to say. Just, my aplogies to anyone who decides to go through it and then just gets confused because I can't english properly and concisely.


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## piano (May 21, 2015)

@Shameless Nation i said something similar on the thinking thread a while back but nobody got what i meant.

“If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us.”

it isn't always the case but it sometimes is. it's interesting but also discomforting how much the people you hate can teach you about yourself. the quote/idea doesn't really factor in everything, but there is some truth to it.

sorry. i'll read and reply to the rest later (your post to me). that part just stood out to me as strikingly accurate.


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## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

@Shameless Nation


> You know how when you fear something you start seeing it in everything only encouraging the anxiety. This is a common notion in psychology and it's ok if you don't trust that, but projecting is meant as seeing into other that which is relatable. So if you find someone to be annoying and attention seeking - chances are you are annoyed by it in the other person because you dislike it in yourself. Our perception is relative to our understanding of the world.


Well yeah. I trust that. But there's different types of annoying and attention seeking (that's usually the line that follows when something is being debated), which I'm sure you know. What bothers me are the ones that do it to spite someone, evoke a response. It almost feels threatening, condescending, and one upping. That's a totally different topic I can talk on for days. Environmental factors, upbringing, the type of day the person is having would all come into the conversation. But it's easy to tell when it's forced. The question of "why force it?" is much more interesting. 



> I remember once in the INFP subforum there was a thread about whether other's often have evil thoughts. Most said yes. Are most evil people? But there was one person who got really upset and scared and angry of the other's admitting to evil thoughts. I would bet 99% chance the person is very self-deluded, fears the evil in herself therefor projects it and fears the evil in other's so much.


Well yeah that's a primitive instinct we all have that was evolutionarily programmed into out DNA. It sounds more like "self denial". Also depending on the individual addressing the person could have had an emotional affect on their interpretation of what was being said, maybe family trouble/trauma/a cataclysmic event. Such conversations should not take place publicly. If the one who got mad instigated it...I'd need to know more about what happened. 



> I mean it's kinda ridiculous. We cognitively make sense of the world, constantly. This process just happens, you can't choose of what you are gonna make sense of next when there are so many layers to your consciousness. Evil thoughts thata re trying to make sense of the world will certainly run through your mind. That shouldn't make you an evil person - whether you disrespect the rest of the world and act upon them should. If one bases their judgment of bad and evil on what kind of thoughts from the gazillion daily thoughts, run through their mind - then yeah. They'll find themselves to be bad people once a single bad thought sneaks in, and they will find everyone else horrible too.


Yeah. Well I'd question your "you can't choose of what you are gonna make sense of next" with "we're all guests in each other's reality". It's quite a polite, confident and accepting way of viewing the world...and depending on the person, maybe this quote could have sufficed...depending on the hostility. 



> Isn't that just beautiful ^_^


Phantasmagorical.



> Darth Shameless  Bad side and dark side do sound cheesy, but what's the alternative? I think I'm maybe using too many concepts to describe the same notion and it can be confusing. But you know - the unpleasant side of existance... all that kinda jazz.
> My bad also slips out from time to time. I don't know myself fully. But hell I'm so much further in the process once I decided to without fear and judgment explore those corner's of my mind that are shameful to explore. With full control - it's just my mind.
> So like I said in the previous post - the getting angry at a random person on internet just because they read more than me - If I didn't have the curiosity to understand WHY do I feel angry and how did I arrive tot hat feeling - I would just keep feeling angry and lost with my identity. But once I decided to face that anger - I ended up laughing and in such joy of how silly this all is.
> I've been angry and jealous with people on here too only to come to realization of why and not beign able to take that jealousy seriously anymore. Then I just wanted to hug them all, my brother's and sister's of this crazy journey.


I dunno...mellow. "You will feel mellow" *waves hand*. 
The trickery!



> Again a personal short story to explain this better: I experienced a really crazy panic attack once. It was almsot like an out of body experience. Got there because of the negative thought pattern's I wasn't aware of. In the panic attack I was almsot looking a tmyself have these crazy thoughts of needign to killmyself right then and there or otherwise other's will get hurt. WHAT? Again - WHAT? That's crazy.


Holy shit. I might have had one of those or come very close. I was shopping on Christmas and town was packed (full of people). I was wearing a thermal T-shirt and had bags of shopping. It may have been a cold day but I was extremely warm. There were so many people I just had to get the f*ck out of there. I was hyper alert of everyone's facial expressions, possibly due to the materialism. I think I freaked out.



> Pitty stroking - validating their behavior. ''It's ok, I understand, that really sucks. Yeah it's understandable.'' And that's it. They ar eleft feeling like they had a right to be shitty cuz it's understandable. ''I understand where you came from and I do feel for your pain, but realize that you have a choice to behave one way or another in that moment and you chose to behave the wrong way''. That sounds better to me. Understanding, but still critical and letting the other know that they did not control their actions when they could. At least now, next time they can.


Pitty stroking! That's terrible! More like "hey...I know you...and sh*t get's tough, but I got you bro".



> Hih. Difficult as in hard to accept? I know my writing style can be messy and I take thousands of pages to explain something. But I kinda need to, cuz there are so many thoughts relating to this one subject. Eventually though, as we can see, it leads to a a nice little analogy. But I could never come to a one explanatory point without going through pages of useless crap
> 
> i hope it was helpful. I think about this stuff daily, obsessively. Kinda like my passion so I do havea lot to say. Just, my aplogies to anyone who decides to go through it and then just gets confused because I can't english properly and concisely.


No, difficult as in I think I'm retarded. Same. It's not crap. You think you're in trouble? I have no idea how to post a spoiler alert.


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## piano (May 21, 2015)

@Shameless Nation

you're definitely an INFP. all that text bwoi.



> But here's the slippery slope - Only if you are conscious, self-aware. It's nothing new that people who come from troubled past repeat it, because the troubled past has taught them the ways to live. It's ingrained in the unconscious. Families of generations of criminals, abusers, anything....


if i don't control my thoughts i'll lose myself in thoughts like that and it breaks my heart. how everyone is just a product of their circumstances and experiences and biological conditioning and everything and anything that is completely out of their power and control. it makes you wonder about the people who experience hardship and come out better people for it. a young boy came into my work with his mother a few weeks ago and she was so awful. it wasn't like she was having a bad day, it just seemed like who she was. she was abrupt and terse and slightly mean-spirited but i try not to be fazed by people like that because it usually only serves to make matters worse but i was still astonished by the manner in which she spoke to me and my coworkers. her little boy, you know what he did? he apologised. he... apologised... for his mother. he didn't do anything wrong. he was quiet and sweet and polite and there he was apologising to me because of the way his mother, an adult, was speaking to me and my coworkers. she paid with a credit card so she had to sign the receipt and when she did she just left it on her side of the cash/counter and just walked away and her sweet little son picked it up and handed it to me and smiled. when i handed her order to her she didn't even look at me and sort of... scoffed? i don't even really know what that was, but her son, after she stalked off, apologised again and wished me a nice day. how could someone like that raise such a sweet and innocent kid? is he the way he is because he knows how she is and it forced him to grow up and mature faster than most kids his age? is he the one taking care of his mother? did she really just have a bad day? was that why he was so apologetic? maybe i was wrong in judging her so harshly. i felt bad about it afterwards but i was happy with myself for not engaging her because if she really was just having a bad day then me being passive-aggressive or even just aggressive back to her would just perpetuate the cycle of hate.

there's so many kids out there that come from broken homes. some grow up to become just like their parents but then there are those that don't, those that become the opposite of their parents. what about a person's personality and cognitive processes dictates how he or she will respond to abuse? or anything, for that matter. what is it about people like oprah, people who come from the most unfortunate of circumstances, that makes them different from (most) other people? she had a very unfortunate upbringing, but look at where she is now. i don't care for her, really, but that doesn't discredit her success or fame or all that she's done to make the world a better place.



> Self-awareness is the biggest of blessings, i think, and I admire anyone who strives for it.
> Jung himself said "_“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” _ and ain't that the biggest truth. And how do you make the unconscious conscious? By not fearing to look at all the corners of yourself - bad and good. Chronic sadness adn self-hatreds a tendency to make you fear seeing the good. It's also the most honorable and selfless thing one can do I think - [n]get to know your demons so they don't ruin other people behind your back[/b]. And you seem to have a focus on that too so I doubt you will be a slave to yourself and you aren't too far gone for redemption.
> In my case though I just really fear screwing up motherhood. That would be the biggest fail of my life. But when I imagine having a little popsicle to love and take care of - I cry.


it really is, self-awareness. i always teeter back and forth on the concept of us potentially having free will. when i was younger i always thought we had it but not because i had any evidence proving we did but because i just really wished we did. after i spent a grueling year trying to find evidence to support it and falling short every time i changed my mind. now i'm more in the middle... which is where i started. i don't lean either way, really, but i think that through mindfulness and thus self-awareness one can gain more control over their life and the circumstances surrounding it. once you dig and dig and dig and find out why you are the way you are or why you do the things you do or why you react to certain people/things/events the way you do, the easier it will become for you to control yourself and the decisions you make. 'cause i think most people operate on autopilot, just casually going through the motions, and that's why history repeats itself. they don't know why they are the way they are. i know because i used to be like that and, you know what? i still kind of am. the only difference now is that i can sometimes catch myself before i do something and stop before i do (though i still sometimes let my body get the best of me and follow through anyway, fully aware of how stupid or irrational or petty what i'm doing is) and i've had the pleasure of knowing and befriending a few people who have noticed and pointed out unhealthy patterns in my behaviour.

i am of the opinion that no ones know you or i or anyone as best as we know our selves but we all have blind spots, all of which are a result of our ego and self-schema. a great example would be our voices. sure, we know what we sound like... generally... but when we hear a recording of our voice we're all put off by it, because that isn't how we're used to hearing ourselves. the same can be said of our identities. we know ourselves best but there's a lot that we can't see because we don't ever physically _see_ ourselves or how we act or speak or are. it feels like the only time i'll ever get an honest opinion is from a loved one who is angry or an enemy who wants to knock me down a notch. both deliveries, although they may contain some truth, are delivered harshly and rarely as constructive criticism. i know i'm self-aware, or getting there, but i also recognise that i have a traits i'm not seeing. how does one view themselves from an objective angle? it reminds me of this quote i love, as most things do: "the truth will set you free, but not until it is finished with you."

so i just reread this post and i pretty much said what jung said except my explanation was verbosity incarnate.

the bold hit home. it rubbed me the wrong way at first and i was being all dramatic in my head like "gah"ing and shit but then i was like... fuck, that happens a lot. i've had a lot of people receive me poorly in the past and i never knew why. i was super sarcastic in high school with my friends (who knew it was all in good fun) but outside observers couldn't tell it was sarcasm... deadpan humour has that effect. a lot mistook for arrogance or malice. the shit i got for it though. some people were ruthless and i didn't get why because i didn't know half of them. for the longest time i didn't know who to blame for it. me? them? i settled on neither. i know i'm not a bad person and i know i would never use sarcasm in response to people who couldn't tell i was being sarcastic, but i also know that those people didn't know any better. to them, it looked harmful. just as, to me, it looked harmless. it's all about perspective, i guess.

in time, shameless. i don't know where your life will take you but if motherhood does become a reality for you then i'm sure you'll give it your all. it's normal to be scared, and i'm sure you don't need me telling you that, but i would try very hard not to worry about it too much if i were you. that probably doesn't hold much weight coming from someone who worries about everything but i have confidence that it'll all work out in the end. what about motherhood appeals to you?



> I think it's good to understand the layers and look behind them - know them. But peeling off layers is a lot more complicated than that. There's this awesome spiritual teacher Teal Swan. She goes into a shit ton of unnecessary yada yada meta ideas, but her way of dealing with issues is fantastic I think. She's not the delusional "positive thinking, ignore everything negative" profit, but she really suggests you to become content with reality and find a better relationship with life's negativities. Not ignore them just develop your relationship with it. It's the people who fear darkness and sadness that push it away so delusionally. When is fear ever good? What will you do one day when there's no more extra place to freeze the dark matters? Break down and die probably!
> Ohh, she also talks about going inside yourself, back to memories that are the root of your negative thought patterns, facing them and instead of erasing them (with ignorance) but changing them. That you have the power to correct your memories to how it should have been. Haven't gotten that far - that's where I become fearful too.


this is an interesting perspective. i can't say if i agree with it yet but it's interesting nonetheless. i do, however, think that coming to terms with reality is the biggest challenge/burden but also the biggest accomplishment a person can have. what does she mean by changing them though? like literally molding them into something else? changing the memory entirely, or just one's perceptive of it?



> You surely know or will know better, but the reason I bring this up is because as a type 4 we tend to seek for self identity in everything, so this can turn into a rat circle that you want someone to come and save you (in any way, really. Not just romantically), but at the same time you are clinging and identifying with that which you need to be saved from. And with identifying with it you also try to relate to other's with it. It ends up being this situation where - someone came to save you, you feel like - yayyyy, they love me for me, they are here to make it better for me- but then you don't wanna get better because you will loose that which attracted them in the first place....


interestingly enough i've had the opposite problem. my positivity is what attracts people - or reels them in, if you will - but because my image is so extreme, meaning i'm either VERY positive or VERY negative, the second i jump to the opposite side of the spectrum they freak out and at first this really hurt me but it's sort of, like... i think it's just hard for people to stomach, the dramatic shift in personality. what drew them in was this, but now you're that, and they're confused and instead of trying to understand why that shift may have occurred they become frightened. i'm guilty of it too. i met a guy who was similar to me. he was either all good or all bad and it was so, so hard to deal with him when he was in the dumps because he was impossible to deal with. i tried to help him because i saw a part of me in him... that's exactly how i was when i was down, but i was only that way with my mother and very close friends. it wasn't until i saw him act like that that i saw how damaging that type of behaviour is not just to those around you but yourself. he really was a good kid though. so selfless when he was healthy that it was only natural for him to become the complete opposite of that when he was unhealthy.



> A personal story on the matter again: I once observed myself starting to identify as someone who loves reading cuz I got back into reading again. Started using goodreads.com to get more into it you know. But browsing I noticed people who were way more of avid readers and it made me angry. Tracing back my thougts and feelings - it made me angry because them being better at something that I am now identifying with devalued my personality. And while I was identifying with this reading stuff, I noticed myself dreaming and fantasizing about a guy finding me irresistable because of this "identity characteristic". As in - uuu, wow, shes such a reader, so deep, yummmm. So when in the picture came the fact that there's someone who has this very same quality he would be attracted to - and is even better at it - I felt very threatened. Like this hypothetical lover just left me for someone else because that someone else was better at being the me that he got attracted to.
> It's really funny actually we 4s can be ridiculous ^_^


i do this too and i think i posted about it once in the past. when i start losing myself to the unhealthy i find myself clinging to past identities or past hobbies or past anything i identified with. that's when i know one of my depressive states is ahead. it's when i try too hard. even while typing this i'm afraid that i'm gonna get like that again. i need to learn how to find a balance because i know the only reason i'm so bad/sad when i'm unhealthy is because i'm so good/happy, or i try to be, when i'm healthy.



> I actually do get attracted to negativity, mostly sexually though, cuz it makes me feel secure, like I wont have to look into the other's eyes, see a perfectly healthy, loving soul and in their reflection see my fuckedupness. It's just so much easier... But not good, or something to pride on and repeat, for sure.


could you maybe elaborate on this? i'm curious to know what you mean. i think i have an idea but i don't want to make any assumptions for fear of guessing wrong and sounding like a prick.

i'm attracted to darkness and dark things as well. i meant to say that others are not attracted in _my_ darkness but looking back now i didn't really clarify at all. i think it scares a lot of people away because they haven't faced their own demons and so they're put off by mine because it's kind of like looking in a mirror, no? i don't know if this happens to you but i find that the most genuinely good/self-aware people i've known, are the ones who like me the most. opposites attract, maybe? maybe i'm the worst type of person there is (i don't actually think this but i've entertained the thought because i feel like on some level it makes sense for that to be the case) or maybe they see that i'm struggling to understand myself like they do and they... appreciate it? or something? i don't know. 

god like that just reminds me of how frustrated i get when people make assumptions about me. it's kind of why i've grown scared of vulnerability and admitting i'm wrong/that i have flaws. it's not because i don't want to be that way, honest about myself, but because i'm scared shitless that someone will hear me saying that i have a bad temper, and instead of just making note of that they... treat me differently? or sometimes they'll do something that hurts me, like something that warrants a negative reaction from me (or anyone), and if i react accordingly they'll just say "oh well i didn't do anything wrong. you just have a bad temper... and you know it." and then i feel like absolute shit about myself. it's similar to the anger some men might feel when some women/men say "ALL men are this way" and they wanna say "not all men!", except i want to say "i'm not ALWAYS like that"

4s are definitely ridiculous. healthy 4s though... that's what we gotta strive for. one day we'll be rumi as fuck... maybe.



> I'm glad this was just a down moment for you. Good to explore those and understand of course. I think you wrote also about feeling lost in life, with no direction? There's a thread on this subforum about "so what do i do with my life" and in one comment there's a really cool article that is helping me now. Maybe you saw it already. Can't copy it now...


as am i and yea i wrote about that once. people gave me some solid advice, as they did here, but i don't like replying unless i know i'm capable of giving them the response and thanks and gratitude they deserve but it's so... hard, because it would take me days. so i freak out internally and then eventually forget to reply. the time i spend stressing about that shit could've been used to reply to those messages.

the feelings i experienced when i made this thread still linger from time to time and i am, at the end of the day, still somewhat depressed, and still BPD (and i know you mentioned not identifying with a mental illness or interest or hobby but this has been around for a majority of my life and i think is as much a part of my identity as my actual personality traits. it is part of my "fuckedupness" i suppose) but where i am now in comparison to where i was 4 years ago... holy shit. there are a lot of negative thought patterns/behaviours i've eradicated. blooaofpdshffhfofasfpi.

thank you for taking the time to help me figure out the maze of what-the-fuck in my head and i'm glad that you were able to take/get something from these interactions as well, at least i hope you were.


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## BelovedDay (Feb 7, 2013)

i cant play the piano said:


> i've suffered from depression for as long as i can remember. i know that isn't an excuse but it makes turning my life around a real challenge. i (probably) have BPD and the two overlap in some areas, depression and BPD, but i struggle to figure out which spawned from which and if neither spawned from the other then what spawned both?


Bipolar Personality Disorder often posits that the person sees no wrong within themselves because they think they function normally that way. Although based from what you have expressed, it seems as though you may qualify for a disorder within the bipolar spectrum. Even then I have nothing solid.



i cant play the piano said:


> my thinking is so extreme. i'll go from thinking everyone loves and admires me one day to thinking everyone hates and is out to get me the next day. i'll go from thinking i'm insightful and self-aware and creative, to thinking i'm dull and idiotic and that "i don't get it". regulation is futile. i don't have it in me to regulate my thoughts or behaviours. i feel as though it is all beyond my grasp and comprehension.


I find it hard to liquidate what I feel, sometimes people would point out that they would rather see me smile all day than see no emotions at all. I don't understand them at all, like I find it hard to express or even know what I am feeling. I started writing as a sublimation to lodge out my pent up feelings. Although I won't say this would be effective for you though, each of us have his or her own unique way of expressing oneself.



i cant play the piano said:


> i went out with my friend and her friends for her birthday the other night and when the girl who was driving nearly hit the car in front of us because she wasn't paying attention, she said "my whole life flashed before my eyes... and i saw nothing" and i think she said it as a joke but it resonated with me, still. i haven't lived a life worth living. i've spent the last 21 (almost 20 fucking 2) years of my life simply going through the motions, daydreaming about the life i wish i had, daydreaming about people who would never give me the time of day, daydreaming about how wonderful my life and i _could_ be.


If I'm a philosopher I would say your going through an existential crisis. 



i cant play the piano said:


> and when i reminisce about the past, i don't do it in the way that normal, sane people do. when i reminisce, i reminisce about how i wish my past was, not how it actually is. i don't know why i do this.


I do this kind of things too, if its any better, most of my friends told me the same. I assumed this was because there were mistakes we couldn't accept within the past. I told them that we study the past so that we can face the future without repeating the same mistakes we'd make.



i cant play the piano said:


> i have thoughts and feelings to my name but very few real experiences. i am nothing. i am empty. i spent my whole life in my comfort zone and now i'm paying for it. i'm paying for it _hard_. i'm sensitive and impatient and lazy and depressed and self-critical with bad habits in spades and good habits in small doses. i've tried to get out of this slump for years but ain't shit changed.


I know someone similar, she's always in her comfort zone, depressed, sensitive when she is criticized. I realized she seems that way because she is afraid of failing in other people's eyes, that is why she doesn't try to exert herself, thinking that her best won't be good enough.

I'm giving her a small push and know her interests to understand her, now she's back at college trying to redeem what she dropped going to where she is.



i cant play the piano said:


> nobody ever understands me the way i want them to. nobody can tell when i'm being sarcastic or when i'm being serious. i overestimate how close i am with certain people. i underestimate the magnitude of my problems. my perception is so fucked. so beyond fucked. everything is all bad or it's all good. no in between. no objectivity. irrational feelings and fears everywhere. i feel so backwards.


After living in a world where the only permanent thing is 'change', I think that everything coexists with each other. Objectivity and subjectivity, good and bad, problems and solutions. Each words won't exist without the other, take your time to understand things the way only you can, fear is something to be accepted in order to be conquered.



i cant play the piano said:


> there are people who leave lasting impressions on the people they meet. i am not one of those people. i come and go and you forget.


Why would you think this? I remember playing tetris, one of the things I realized that when you fit the blocks in it disappears. I applied the hypothesis in the real world and the implications seemed true at some point. What impressions are you trailing behind?



i cant play the piano said:


> so, is it possible to be too fucked up to save? because i think i am.


One of the hardest things that I have encountered are people who think they can't be saved, because they seemed to have given up on themselves as well. Remember, everything is what you chose to believe in. I believe everyone can save themselves from themselves.

You want to have genuine friendships and that's good, you want to have a long lasting relationships and that's good, you want a job that lasts within your interests and that's good, you want yourself under control and that's good, you want to hold down a dream and that's good, you want to change for the better and that's good, you want to be understood and that's good, you want to be saved and that's good.

I believe these are the things that will carry you to redemption.


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