# I am walking cognitive science project (Best Fit Type Identification Request)



## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

Well that was interesting took the keys2cognition assessment. I refused to let any of my 'work personas' influence me I tried to focus on the _me outside my professional self_.

Cognitive Process	Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ***************** (17.3)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************** (20.4)
limited use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ************************************* (37.9)
excellent use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************************************* (45.7)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *************************************** (39.6)
excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ******************************** (32.8)
good use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ***************** (17.5)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ***************************** (29.4)
average use

Summary Analysis of Profile
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: *INTJ*

Lead (Dominant) Process
Introverted Intuiting (Ni): Transforming with a meta-perspective. Withdrawing from the world and focusing your mind to receive an insight or realization. Checking if synergy results. Trying out a realization to transform things.

Support (Auxilliary) Process
Extraverted Thinking (Te): Measuring and constructing for progress. Making decisions objectively based on evidence and measures. Checking if things function properly. Applying a procedure to control events and complete goals.

If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENTJ, or INTP


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

zedarko said:


> I just wonder why on the MBTI assessments (formal mail one) I always end up an XSTP -- the assessments have issues to be sure --- and I often don't relate to the description wholly.


Mayhap this will shed a bit of light on the similarities -- When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?

Depending on the context people know me in, the closest people usually get to typing me is INTJ, INTP, or ISTJ. I've only had two people correctly figure out I was an ISTP without aid.

I took a lot of the assessments multiple times when I was in high school. I got nearly every variation of an Ixxx with an occasional Exxx thrown in. The ISTP description didn't really resonate with me when I weighed them post-high school, but the cognitive process did. The thing is, I did not see how I was similar to the descriptions until people that really knew me told me what they saw that matched. Ask people who know you well what they see.

The descriptions often have a behavioral flavor to them, and at the backbones of MBTI, you're really looking at a cognitive process. It's true over time we learn to adapt and approach the world in ways that we don't prefer (like, learning to filter words, listen, acknowledge feelings, etc). The behavioral descriptions are trying to convey how the cognitive process _could_ manifest and appear to others. You have to read between the lines sometimes to see the principles/function dynamics the description is trying to illustrate. It's not an expectation or requirement that you agree/relate to them wholly.



> At a glance I think I am conflating my preference for enacting my plans immediately with a preference for the immediate environment -- *I do somtimes feel overwhelmed by the very things that I think many ISTP would have little issue with*


^ What do you mean by this?


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

zedarko said:


> ESTP: My Se is just entirely too terrible and I don't trust it enough for the ESTP to be a top contender. Though *I do have a strong bias for action and getting things done.* Perhaps this is a more mature Fe coming through from an ISTP function stack?


I'd say this is more indicative of a Je dom/aux-function rather than Se. Se is more "absorption of a present state/environment" rather than "getting things done." Because Se is good at absorbing immediate states, it allows for good _reactions,_ which ties xSxPs to action-oriented sports/hobbies and calm handling of crises. 



> ISTP: *I am frustrated very much by not being able to interact directly (I do a lot of strategy type work) but at the same time am told repeatedly I grasp organizational dynamics that everyone misses.* I 'get it' early and in great detail. Strong Ti and Se? or well developed Ni?


It sounds like your frustration is not being allowed to let your Je (which I read as Te rather than Fe) follow through with the course of action your Ni has constructed. I would say your intuitive grasp of organizational dynamics is an Ni/Se processing, with Ni stronger than Se.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

thunder said:


> Mayhap this will shed a bit of light on the similarities -- When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?
> 
> Depending on the context people know me in, the closest people usually get to typing me is INTJ, INTP, or ISTJ. I've only had two people correctly figure out I was an ISTP without aid.
> 
> ...



I would say that I think that thinking ahead tactically about something, implies that I am planning insofar as the online quizes are concerned. In all seriousness I am a terrible planner. While I may be making a 'plan' I have never once made a plan for anything longer than 30 to 60 days out and that pushing it...if I decide to change careers, or buy a car, or a house etc, I want to do it _now_ and feel very confident in my ability navigate the complexities absent a longer term plan. While I may look ahead and seek to exert some control over my future it is to solve an immediate problem.

As for being overwhelmed by things that might traditionally appeal to ISTP's -- I realize now its the stereotypes I was referring to..so its almost not worth mentioning, but generally I avoid situations I don't fully understand the risks of paragliding (nope!), motorcycles (nope!), rock-climbing (big nope!) in many ways I don't trust man-made things to keep me safe and would prefer to trust myself if I am going to do something risky -- I readily see too many possibilities for things to break.

At the same time I am very much drawn to the way things interact with their environment, how an engine works, an arrow flies, a gun works, a train changes on the tracks, hot oil heats up and travels faster through pipelines etc.

I was that weird kid in school lighting up florescent light tubes with my hands while touching a plasma-sphere..and bringing such dorkiness to class. I won the science fair every year? Why because most of the popular and easiest to measure experiments were mechanical in nature.


The "When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?" posted above is great. The parts that really resonate with me are the following:

ISTP colleague described a *tactical trouble shooting approach with a focus on getting the task done (Se)*

ISTP's frequently engage their Relief Role process (tertiary) of *introverted iNtuiting and enjoy looking at whole systems and patterns and getting a sense of what will happen in the future*. I do this while going on walks, always. 

desire to enter a situation with some sort of course of action in mind. It *doesn't have to be a detailed plan and ISTPs often seem planful as they analyze a situation in anticipation of what is likely to happen.*

*concrete language of the ISTP, which often creates a picture in the listener's mind. Such language is likely to be full of specific examples and stories.
* 

I love story telling -- creating the atmosphere and enjoy authors that emphasize painting the picture (and movies with good world building). Blade Runner, 5th Element, Star Wars (early ones) Riddick, Jurassic Park etc. I want to smell, feel and live in the place I reading about. As an example when I read about a sci-fi star-ship hangar I can almost smell the o-zone and oil, the thrumming of the idle engines etc. If I were to be in a temple in the jungle, I enjoy and can easily visualize the itchy skin from the sweat mixing with the small cuts from the tall grass, and cold, slippery tiles of the damp stonework. In terms of fiction I love that stuff. When I tell stories myself people often comment on the clarity with which I describe a scene or situation.

In a professional setting I am often told I get to the heart of the matter and able to either use metaphor or explicit well constructed description to describe a situation and the interacting parts, often with a tactical understanding, in the IT world his has benefited me greatly in the requirements gathering phase of systems/business analysis work.

Heck I just don't know anymore -- ENTP (this would explain the tendency for stereotypical introversion) very close to ESTP land because I like seeing my designs do something in the real world? Might also explain the higher than normal Fe, and mistrust in things inferior Si? This doesn't account for astute Ni Se explanation above though. I'll have to give this some thought.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

thunder said:


> I'd say this is more indicative of a Je dom/aux-function rather than Se. Se is more "absorption of a present state/environment" rather than "getting things done." Because Se is good at absorbing immediate states, it allows for good _reactions,_ which ties xSxPs to action-oriented sports/hobbies and calm handling of crises.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like your frustration is not being allowed to let your Je (which I read as Te rather than Fe) follow through with the course of action your Ni has constructed. I would say your intuitive grasp of organizational dynamics is an Ni/Se processing, with Ni stronger than Se.


Both of these make a great deal of sense. I'll see I can address them tomorrow with some examples. Of note is the Ni Se interaction.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Sorry I was busy again - I'll get to this on Sunday. Btw I completely agree with @thunder 's analysis in post #43.


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

> Of note is the Ni Se interaction.


 @*zedarko* ^ This I believe is a key point for you: how is the Ni/Se dynamic different in an INTJ vs an ISTP?

By no means am I error-free or complete in explaining, but here's a first attempt at describing some of it:



> ISTP colleague described a *tactical trouble shooting approach with a focus on getting the task done (Se)*


I'll echo my previous comment that "focus on getting the task done" may also describe a Je-dynamic. Both ISTPs and INTJs can "get the task done." INTJs tend to be more _consistent_ in getting things done (which it sounds like you are, considering other people describe you as a "doer", "someone who gets things done", "cares too much about work"). ISTPs often don't get things done until the moment calls for it. If ISTPs get things done, it is often either because they have internally-driven interest (Ji) or because the situation (finally) demands action (response via Se absorption of an immediate state).



> ISTP's frequently engage their Relief Role process (tertiary) of *introverted iNtuiting and enjoy looking at whole systems and patterns and getting a sense of what will happen in the future*. I do this while going on walks, always.


As an slight aside, when I go on walks, all I care about is clearing my brain and allowing Se to just absorb immediate states without thinking about implications (Ni). OTOH, when my INTJ sibling goes on walks, he will look at things and see the patterns/systems. He'll tell me all the interesting things about these systems and draw from the wealth of information he has accumulated and sometimes I just want to say, "Stop _thinking _[about all these connections, implications, etc] and just enjoy existing and experiencing the walk." (Him: Ni>Se. Me: Se>Ni)



> I would say I have human interests ultimately at heart sure --- because what else is there? *We are on this planet, and need to take care of each-other and resources etc or face complete chaos and suffering.* Not a world I want to live in or one I would wish on anyone I know. I would say I developed awareness because a logical approach was almost never recognized at work(or home) on its own, I found that at heart people are rather selfish beings who have their own interests at heart, or at the very least work within some reciprocal altruism model wittingly or otherwise.
> Why does this matter -- absent absolute authority to enact ones will directly *its all about influence without authority which means* *reading people and anticipating their desires leveraging that understanding to further your own ends.* Its not as cold as it sounds, often there is mutual benefit here and gains to be had by both parties.


All of this reads very Te/Fi, with Te>Fi: the Fi-principle morals lends motivation for the results and aims of Te. I can hear my INTJ brother saying this: "Work to address resources and social issues to better the world for humanity." whereas me: "I just want to do interesting stuff, and if I end up helping people, neat."

ISTP's Ti-Fe is rather hands-off on people. ISTPs typically do not care to change people or try to impose their own ideas/actions on others, because the logical framework is internal, and the the social harmony/agreement of Fe as an inferior function means ISTPs are disinclined to cause social disharmony by imposing ideas.

Te/Fi wants to make tangible changes and improve things for a cause/greater benefit. 



> I can only say I don't like to be controlled (strong independent streak), I don't mind being part of a larger organization, and *I very much am comfortable after making a decision instead of before it. Also surprises on the whole irk me a bit. Its one of the very things that drove me nuts about my former position I was never allowed to be prepared for much of anything, constant tap-dancing.*


This reads more Je dom/aux than Ji dom/aux. You prefer to exert your judgment/control outwardly. A healthy Ji-dom is pretty OK with uncertainty. In fact, having to prepare (too much) can be stressful.



> However the common denominator during those MBTI evaluations was that *in all those cases I was working in a position that was crisis oriented, ones in which I have learned to react immediately to my environment and bury any feelings deep underground.*


In my experience, under stress both the inferior and tertiary functions surface in negative forms. With the Ni/Fe combo for ISTP, one manifestation for me is I tend to freak out over minor social interactions and start finding all the awful meanings and perceptions people _might possibly_ think of me. I interpret people's words and actions in the worst meaning and then fly off the handle at them. 

I read the above as an INTJ engaging in a lot of inferior Se and uprising of tertiary Fi. (annnnndddd now I'm too tired to bother further explaining.) BUT to get away from all this theoretical cognitive function analyses and comment on your end goal -- 



> I am tired of overextending for years. I feel like if I can find my type, it is not going to box me in so much as help identify where my fatigue boundaries are, allow me to recognize when I am using functions that are more draining than my preference and keep the duration of use somewhat limited. Choose a professional that wont wipe me out in the first week as an example.


I honestly believe you are an INTJ but at the end of the day that is your assessment to conclude on. I am happy to continue to discuss and reconsider. I think even if you conclude a "wrong" type but are able to get yourself to a happier professional state, that's useful in itself. _If I were to suggest characteristics of a good job for you based on an INTJ assessment, I'd say you would be happier in one where you can lead projects/parts of projects you are either passionate about or is of your own making. You know what you want to achieve and the possible impacts it can make (even if the details of the path to the end goal changes along the way) and you have competent people who you trust to help get things done._


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

thunder said:


> @*zedarko* This I believe is a key point for you...........................


 @thunder

All of that was spot on... I have certainly settled on XNTJ and in fact may even edge over into the ENTJ zone give my bias towards action and efficiency above all else. I had originally discounted the type as the descriptions often talked about controlling others --- but I think I want to control the situation (which often oddly enough includes others).

I think perhaps struggling to recognize my own type is possibly driven by inferior Fi? It s likley also then then that I use Dom Te and Tertiary Se to navigate people and emulate Fe insofar as weak online tests tend to articulate that function.


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

> I think *perhaps struggling to recognize my own type is possibly driven by inferior Fi?* It s likley also then then that I use Dom Te and Tertiary Se to navigate people and emulate Fe insofar as weak online tests tend to articulate that function.


It is possible. I know an ESTJ who is uncomfortable with digging through their own feelings or being sure of certain aspects of their identity (in spite of what others tell them). If an internal compass value is shaken it can be a process for them to reestablish a strong Fi value/belief/identity facet. I struggle to recognize how I fit in socially (Fe). My perception of and belief in my own sociability isn't the strongest thing.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> I would say the closest thing I can compare it to a need to make sure things are working in my immediate environment because if this is not the case it otherwise it causes disharmony/tension and I feel like I cant focus on what my interior thoughts are at the time. The impulse is to fix the 'problem' to eliminate the distraction. Oddly enough the problem may not be a problem at all --- its more a sensitivity to local disarray. Frustrates me immensely.


This is a bit too abstract - what sort of disharmony and tension are we talking about? What sort of things need to be working in the immediate environment? If you got some typical examples for this, it would help.

A little reminder for the context, lol, but we started this topic about you having morals changing/being determined by situation and that looking like an extraverted function. 




> I characterize a task-focused relationship as ultimately keeping relationships and pleasant as they need to be to maintain a good working relationship. I would certainly be one to engage in small talk only as a means to an end. Not for its own purposes. I have my own purpose for talking to anyone just about always, with the exception of those closest to me.


I didn't know small talk was actually supposed to have its own purpose. 




> Feelings should be attended to like a fire at a military camp, without it things get can get cold people get uncomfortable and bad things happen, even if my real purpose is to setup camp to discuss strategy or prepare for the coming battle. Feelings should be managed like anything else (externally and internally), though to me they are not the focus at all of my goals. I would say I pursue the greater good sure -- but the path to success is almost always a logical one in which feelings are a necessary accessory to the overall strategy. By the same token a world without feelings and emotion would be dull indeed, even if it often causes more problems than it solves.


Why do you think feelings are a necessary accessory to the overall strategy? What do you think of strategies that do not view feelings as such necessary accessories and actually pretty much ignore them instead?




> I would say I have human interests ultimately at heart sure --- because what else is there? We are on this planet, and need to take care of each-other and resources etc or face complete chaos and suffering. Not a world I want to live in or one I would wish on anyone I know. I would say I developed awareness because a logical approach was almost never recognized at work(or home) on its own, I found that at heart people are rather selfish beings who have their own interests at heart, or at the very least work within some reciprocal altruism model wittingly or otherwise.


What do you have in mind that would go beyond this reciprocal altruism model? Not sure I was following you perfectly well there 




> Why does this matter -- absent absolute authority to enact ones will directly its all about influence without authority which means reading people and anticipating their desires leveraging that understanding to further your own ends. Its not as cold as it sounds, often there is mutual benefit here and gains to be had by both parties.


Could you give an actual example where you leveraged your understanding of people's desires/emotions to further your own ends - what were your own ends, what was the mutual benefit/gains to be had by all parties in the specific case?




> I think empathy as stated above is a bit imbalanced. The best course of action when faced with an adverse action (say in a supervisory role?) recognizing the emotional impacts on personal feelings, when selecting between otherwise logically equal paths is certainly important. Equitable would be the word I would choose that characterized my own approach to things.


So we can state you are good at recognizing the emotional impacts. How you integrate this with the logical path is what would be worth further exploring here.




> At a glance (gross stereotype here) INTP's seem to enjoy theory for theory's sake or at the very least are not as sensitive to need to apply that theory. I would say unless I can use the theory I am not going to any attention to it at all.


Got you there.  That stereotype isn't bad since it does get at the way of thinking INTPs have instead of some crappy behavioural stereotyping. 




> Without writing a novel I would quickly say that a computer can take you places, albeit virtual, one is a vehicle for information and creativity and other a vehicle for physical movement etc. Both have a central engine that processes a currency, carbon and electrons. These fuels operate within a complex network of pipes and pathways which stores its currency temporarily, RAM/fuel tank. In both cases a computer and car have various models are constantly improving, and have varying degree of performance options that emphasize different things, graphics, physical acceleration etc.
> 
> In fact they have in many ways become the same device, as we start to blur the lines between the physical world and cyberspace world (internet of things) that distinction will become even less clear.
> 
> I could go off the deep end here but will stop there ---this comparison got fun.


OK, this seems like an Intuitive parallel. Not really utilizing Ti too closely in it. And yeah I can see how it got fun 




> Basically, I will make an initial assessment of something, and then interpolate the gap in-between upon revisiting it, until I understand all the possible ways (within reason) something can exist/operate. Its iterative in the sense that I like to revisit my understanding, add to it, remove pieces, tweak it, adjust it, until it works. That a terrible description but all I can come up with at the moment, Ill try to find a good example.


Oh, it's fine, I understood it no problem (on a general level). If you want to give an example, feel free to. 




> I am going to make a separate post for this as it will require some space


OK  (Yes still interested)




> I would much rather believe that I am not so great at implementing long-term plans (ISTP), than to think the environment I worked in for the last few years was so absolutely dysfunctional (un-satisfied INTJ) I feel like I _have to_ have been missing the bigger picture somehow because there were plenty of people totally fine with the chaos.


ISTP is pretty fine with chaos, them being P types. Are you trying to say that your plans tended to fail in that environment due to other people's doing whatever (I remember what you said earlier about politics)?




zedarko said:


> I while I don't have my answers on me at the moment Ill post by answers to the quiz posted in the stickies (self assessment one) as that was an almost dead giveaway as an INTJ, if we can take the scoring mechanism at face value anyhow, and I thought it did a pretty decent job of being diagnostic. Though I cant speak to the validity how they assigned the functions of to the response -- they are all becoming a bit of a blur.


Interested in this as well.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> I would say that I think that thinking ahead tactically about something, implies that I am planning insofar as the online quizes are concerned. In all seriousness I am a terrible planner. While I may be making a 'plan' I have never once made a plan for anything longer than 30 to 60 days out and that pushing it...if I decide to change careers, or buy a car, or a house etc, I want to do it _now_ and feel very confident in my ability navigate the complexities absent a longer term plan. While I may look ahead and seek to exert some control over my future it is to solve an immediate problem.


This to me indicates ENxJ more than INxJ. (I can explain more on why if you need me to, let me know!) 




> At the same time I am very much drawn to the way things interact with their environment, how an engine works, an arrow flies, a gun works, a train changes on the tracks, hot oil heats up and travels faster through pipelines etc.


You do this via that conceptual way of understanding, like you drawing those parallels and systems working together etc on an abstract level. Right?




> The "When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?" posted above is great. The parts that really resonate with me are the following:


Those are pretty generally worded, not really getting into the thinking process behind too much. So for example, "getting the task done" is general, can be achieved in more than one way cognition-wise. @thunder already pointed this out though. As for engaging the tertiary process, it's quite vague on how "frequently". Again this has been adressed by an actual ISTP, I see.  

As for that picture being created - for ISTPs this would be a constant flow of concrete details. I like this example for ISTP story-telling from this forum (first one that came up in my mind): 


_"I used to do all sorts of crazy things when i was younger, one thing i really loved was mountain biking down hill, winding through trees and rocks. I remember when i lived in upstate New York, there was a shallow creek that would go down hill for a pretty long distance, there were no trees on the creek so it was pretty much a straight line down, all through really slippery rocks. I used to ride down there as fast as i could possibly go, and at the very end was a small road and a very small pipe that would allow the water to pass through. If you hit the road where the pipe was you would get pretty messed up, but if you turned at the last minute, you could use the dirt next to the road as a sort of ramp and clear the road to the other side.

I must have done that almost every day after school when i lived there. I only fell off once, but it was near the top so i wasn't carrying any real speed and didn't get hurt.

I used to climb really tall pine trees and try to jump to another tree from near the top. Usually even if you missed, because the branches were so dense, you could eventually catch yourself and you wouldn't fall straight to the ground. I remember climbing a giant boulder occasionally too, obviously with no equipment.

When i was in my teen years in California, there was a group of kids in my high school that would have these kick boxing matches in a park. It was a really bad neighborhood so small children never really went there, but i remember getting in a lot of fights there with people i knew from school. There was never really any animosity, at least none that i was aware of, we were just stupid kids having fun. Usually a fight would end if someone gave up or got knocked out or dazed. Everyone stopped doing it because two weeks in a row cops kept showing up, basically waiting for us there since, i assume they found out that we were fighting there. I still missed the forests from when i lived on the east coast though, i always liked being near nature, the fighting was fun, but didn't really fill the void entirely.

I tried playing tennis, or just running to get the same adrenaline and exercise, but it never really filled the urge completely. I also had an opportunity to drive a series of race cars in Japan in late 2009 and early 2010, a few different open wheel cars, and some sports cars. The open wheel cars were a good rush. I had a chance to drive in a historic series for the owner of the cars, but it wasn't a paying job, and i wouldn't have been able to support myself while doing that so it wasn't a realistic thing to do and never happened.

Right now, since i live away from any place that gets me close to nature, and can't seem to get any real excitement, i feel like i'm missing a big part of the life i had my whole life up until early adulthood. I play around on racing simulators to try and trick myself into feeling like i'm driving a real car, but it just doesn't give you the proper feeling of motion, even if the steering feedback and physics are pretty close, the whole experience just doesn't compare to the real thing."_


Now on the other hand, I get a feeling you do more Ni than Sensing in your stories, at least the bits I've seen from you so far were all more abstract and less detail oriented than this. You mention metaphors, creating an atmosphere, etc.. I've seen these, yes.




> Heck I just don't know anymore -- ENTP (this would explain the tendency for stereotypical introversion) very close to ESTP land because I like seeing my designs do something in the real world? Might also explain the higher than normal Fe, and mistrust in things inferior Si? This doesn't account for astute Ni Se explanation above though. I'll have to give this some thought.


I thought of ENTP only for a short time for you because I get Ni/Se from you more overall, not Ne/Si. You relating to ESTP would also show you preferring Se enough as an NJ type.




zedarko said:


> I have certainly settled on XNTJ and in fact may even edge over into the ENTJ zone give my bias towards action and efficiency above all else. I had originally discounted the type as the descriptions often talked about controlling others --- but I think I want to control the situation (which often oddly enough includes others).
> 
> I think perhaps struggling to recognize my own type is possibly driven by inferior Fi? It s likley also then then that I use Dom Te and Tertiary Se to navigate people and emulate Fe insofar as weak online tests tend to articulate that function.


The interesting thing here is that I've seen both T and F aspects from you. Where you explicitly go into talking about Je things - in a quite Je manner too - I can see quite some Te definitely but you've also mentioned a lot of Feeling and possibly Fe aspects too. 

So you want to control the situation, that much is clear - you could compare how ENTJ and ENFJ do this.

Also, what do you mean by emulating Fe in the tests etc.?


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

@zedarko, a quick link on that last note about ENFJ vs ENTJ (and even ESTP!): When does an ENFJ look like an ESTJ, ESTP, or ENTJ?


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> @zedarko, a quick link on that last note about ENFJ vs ENTJ (and even ESTP!): When does an ENFJ look like an ESTJ, ESTP, or ENTJ?


Excellent! Thank You, reading this now.

Update: Interesting! I am going to have to take a look at how Te and Fe operating as a dominant function and how Fi and Ti operate in an inferior capacity.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> Excellent! Thank You, reading this now.
> 
> Update: Interesting! I am going to have to take a look at how Te and Fe operating as a dominant function and how Fi and Ti operate in an inferior capacity.


Sounds like a good plan


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

@myst91 @thunder

So I just spent the better part of 5 hours (don't ask) reading extensively on the cognitive functions and have had a couple epiphanies..some more obvious than others.

Online tests suck. We know this though. Even the official MBTI test is pretty iffy but has been the most consistent for me.

Given that I have almost always gotten ESTP and a couple ENTPs and a single ISTP (though I think I was biased on that particular one as I was annoyed with people in general) I think the true answer is closer than I originally assumed.

The military and government are very SJ in nature and certainly more S than N-like tendencies. What if I have been an ENTP and the environment has pushed me to value S and J like words/values on the test and pushed my result closer to ESTP from the "natural" ENTP insofar as the MBTI dichotomy is concerned/represented on the formal test.

It's clear the position/job was stressful, and a poor match for overall demeanor it was also clear I was given way more work than I could ever accomplish and frankly I didn't know where my limits were (Ne)...I think it's likely that I was not necessarily pushing for closure or organization explicitly but more being trapped in the following situation...

I was often overwhelmed with new long term projects (many were unrealistic even by those skilled with such things) and often I missed near term opportunities and didn't know how to say no (Ne)and (Fe), additionally I was frustrated with not being able to turn my (Ne) and (Ti) generated ideas into something that would work in a very tangible/tactical environment, and struggling to learn from this reality, repeating the same mistakes (Si).

I struggle horribly with being objective about myself on weak online tests (apparent in previous posts) As (Ne) is always able to come up with an alternative explanation for why I might pick the other option..and I may end up just going with it. I feel generally I have a very flexible internal compass, and am often driven by pure "potential", or what sounds plausible and workable.

I would also say that the directive speech pattern ( mentioned by some --where it existed) is a learned behavior to be sure. As professional a project manager this was often a necessity of any written communication especially in a government role where I had to be very careful about not only what I said but how I said it. But for all the learned behavior it broke down about halfway into my original post as noted by one of the first respondents to to this thread. 

If I am honest get tired of being (Te) oriented for any length of time. I would rather explore possibilities. And I would love for them to work, tweak them try again. If successful they would give me more information to adjust the next attempt and try something new. (I cant find it now but I think I even asserted at one point I take an iterative approach to most thing). In the end I am lazy..so I seek the cheapest path to success as well. I don't plan much but at the same time like to see some immediate results...for feedback, then try again, see how it works rinse-repeat. This tendency was not supported well in the multi-month long stractical (intentional word use here, strategic and tactical simultaneously) endeavors of previous employer.

I need to strongly consider Ne Ti Fe Si over Te Ni Se Fi. 

Most of the time I have no grand designs, loathe controlling people and want to play with my ideas to create something thats awesome(tm), and that hopefully works.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> @myst91 @thunder
> 
> So I just spent the better part of 5 hours (don't ask) reading extensively on the cognitive functions and have had a couple epiphanies..some more obvious than others.


OK I'm here now. Haha, "don't ask"...




> Online tests suck. We know this though. Even the official MBTI test is pretty iffy but has been the most consistent for me.
> 
> Given that I have almost always gotten ESTP and a couple ENTPs and a single ISTP (though I think I was biased on that particular one as I was annoyed with people in general) I think the true answer is closer than I originally assumed.


I would not decide type based on the tests. But you already know my opinion on that.




> The military and government are very SJ in nature and certainly more S than N-like tendencies. What if I have been an ENTP and the environment has pushed me to value S and J like words/values on the test and pushed my result closer to ESTP from the "natural" ENTP insofar as the MBTI dichotomy is concerned/represented on the formal test.


It's one of the many little speculative possibilities that on their own aren't going to determine anything.




> It's clear the position/job was stressful, and a poor match for overall demeanor it was also clear I was given way more work than I could ever accomplish and frankly I didn't know where my limits were (Ne)...I think it's likely that I was not necessarily pushing for closure or organization explicitly but more being trapped in the following situation...
> 
> I was often overwhelmed with new long term projects (many were unrealistic even by those skilled with such things) and often I missed near term opportunities and didn't know how to say no (Ne)and (Fe), additionally I was frustrated with not being able to turn my (Ne) and (Ti) generated ideas into something that would work in a very tangible/tactical environment, and struggling to learn from this reality, repeating the same mistakes (Si).


The problem with this analysis is that the loose associations of these specific bits to cognitive functions could be replaced with other loose associations to different cognitive functions.

I instead believe in finding strong repeating trends that show the dominant and the inferior function.




> I struggle horribly with being objective about myself on weak online tests (apparent in previous posts) As (Ne) is always able to come up with an alternative explanation for why I might pick the other option..and I may end up just going with it. I feel generally I have a very flexible internal compass, and am often driven by pure "potential", or what sounds plausible and workable.


I noticed that, hence my considering ENxx for you initially too.




> If I am honest get tired of being (Te) oriented for any length of time. I would rather explore possibilities. And I would love for them to work, tweak them try again. If successful they would give me more information to adjust the next attempt and try something new. (I cant find it now but I think I even asserted at one point I take an iterative approach to most thing). In the end I am lazy..so I seek the cheapest path to success as well. I don't plan much but at the same time like to see some immediate results...for feedback, then try again, see how it works rinse-repeat. This tendency was not supported well in the multi-month long stractical (intentional word use here, strategic and tactical simultaneously) endeavors of previous employer.


That's noted.




> I need to strongly consider Ne Ti Fe Si over Te Ni Se Fi.
> 
> Most of the time I have no grand designs, loathe controlling people and want to play with my ideas to create something thats awesome(tm), and that hopefully works.


I did consider ENTP for you originally but then you seemed more J and Ni than P and Ne and I saw a fair bit of Fe. I still would not drop the ENFJ option for you at this point but I'm curious if you have explored the ENTP option more since your post and what you think about it now.


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## thunder (Jun 15, 2011)

@zedarko -- have you given this (ENTJ/ENTP/ENFJ) more thought, or are you taking some time off from it? (which may be good -- taking a break certainly helped me in my own search years ago)


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

thunder said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
> @<b><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=408018" target="_blank">zedarko</a></b>
> <!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> -- have you given this (ENTJ/ENTP/ENFJ) more thought, or are you taking some time off from it? (which may be good -- taking a break certainly helped me in my own search years ago)


I am still here! And yes I have given it some thought just caught up with work. Though between the three I have no idea -- and in some ways I don't think I am going to find my preference. The functions are too abstract, and the discreet tools (i.e. online tests are too unreliable) -- but I I had to pick on based on what I know of the functions id say ENTP fits the best.

This is great.....


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## Shroud Shifter (Sep 9, 2015)

Based on your questionnaire I would type you as XNTJ. But ENTP is within the realm of possibility.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

Shroud Shifter said:


> Based on your questionnaire I would type you as XNTJ. But ENTP is within the realm of possibility.


Yeah? Funny I had ENTJ in the above post and edited it to ENTP-- showed my wife the video just now she said ENTJ (of the two) all the way. And laughed that I even debated the other type.

Apparently I am very direct...........


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## Shroud Shifter (Sep 9, 2015)

I would trust your wife on this.  I get ENTJ vibes from you as well. But if you can't relate to it at all, then I guess ENTP is within margin.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

Shroud Shifter said:


> I would trust your wife on this.  I get ENTJ vibes from you as well. But if you can't relate to it at all, then I guess ENTP is within margin.


Hah! Thats some great advice. So started searching for "ENTJ" folks on YouTube, mind blown. Now I am almost certain --- between helpful folks such as yourself and seeing videos like the below -- there is little doubt in my mind. Of note I don't pause to think something through as many NTP's appear to, I am just charismatically spewing it out there in a structured (possibly imprecise manner) much like the video below.

Though I am not ruling out INTJ -- XNTJ for sure.

or ENFJ with rampant Ti?


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> Yeah? Funny I had ENTJ in the above post and edited it to ENTP-- showed my wife the video just now she said ENTJ (of the two) all the way. And laughed that I even debated the other type.
> 
> Apparently I am very direct...........


Does she still think the Ti inferior fits you? Instead of Fi inferior of ENTJ?

Also what's her type if you know it?


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> Does she still think the Ti inferior fits you? Instead of Fi inferior of ENTJ?
> 
> Also what's her type if you know it?



I read several description of inferior Fi, and Inferior Ti --- she said inferior Ti fit better. So.. ENFJ 

As for her without a doubt in my mind ISFP. Makes for an interesting dynamic.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> I read several description of inferior Fi, and Inferior Ti --- she said inferior Ti fit better. So.. ENFJ
> 
> As for her without a doubt in my mind ISFP. Makes for an interesting dynamic.


Oh so trying on ENFJ now?  What's the dynamic like btw?


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> Oh so trying on ENFJ now?  What's the dynamic like btw?


Yeah ENFJ -- I still think on some level the STP's is more me.. but eh. Actually I am hanging up the hat on MBTI personality types altogether I think. Either I am too broken -- or the system doesn't account for my personal kind of weird. 

I think we complement each other quite well neither of us plans very well, generally both very laid back and tolerant. She tends to focus on details I miss and I nab things she misses. I very much value forward motion (almost impatient about it) she is content to go at her own pace.

We value many of the same things -- and yet have stark differences of opinion sometimes. Under pressure we can accomplish some pretty cool things then look back and have no idea how we pulled it off. I would say the dynamic is much like Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz in the Mummy series of movies. Almost exactly...come to think of it.


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> Yeah ENFJ -- I still think on some level the STP's is more me.. but eh.


The TP part, for some reason?




> Actually I am hanging up the hat on MBTI personality types altogether I think. Either I am too broken -- or the system doesn't account for my personal kind of weird.


It can be hard to type yourself with very low Si not grounding things well. 




> I think we complement each other quite well neither of us plans very well, generally both very laid back and tolerant. She tends to focus on details I miss and I nab things she misses. I very much value forward motion (almost impatient about it) she is content to go at her own pace.


Still _very _ENxx and ISxx. 




> We value many of the same things -- and yet have stark differences of opinion sometimes. Under pressure we can accomplish some pretty cool things then look back and have no idea how we pulled it off. I would say the dynamic is much like Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz in the Mummy series of movies. Almost exactly...come to think of it.


Socionics - the16types.info - Making Duality Work by V. Meged
Socionics - the16types.info - Socionics Duality Descriptions by V. Meged, A. Ovcharov.

ILE-SEI, that is, ENTp-ISFp (very first description at both links).


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> The TP part, for some reason?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow.....this is rather enlightening.

Bwhaha so much _yes_.

"The Innovator does not regulate interpersonal distance in communication very well well; sometimes he is inappropriately familiar and impolite, too trusting towards other people, or too kind to those who don't care for him. For this reason he may fall into troubles and difficult situations. The Mediator relieves him from such mistakes."

@myst91

This was the single most diagnostic thing I have ever read about personality types. Why didn't we think about understanding my through my interaction with someone I know very well earlier (ie spouse?). Great call genius move!

ENTp I assume is loosely correlated with MBTI ENTP? I know for 'Judgers' the relationship is less clear though between the systems.


Awesome. Like a glove, and its a somewhat cringe-worthy fit on the flaws -- so I know its accurate. lol..
http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ILE-ENTp/

Single most effective line defining how I evaluate most everything that pops into my head. 

"He prefers to think about immediate possibilities (Ne) and what can be done to materialize them (Ti) rather than to dwell on the outcome of what might or might not be."


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> Oh wow.....this is rather enlightening.
> 
> Bwhaha so much _yes_.


Glad if it helps.




> "The Innovator does not regulate interpersonal distance in communication very well well; sometimes he is inappropriately familiar and impolite, too trusting towards other people, or too kind to those who don't care for him. For this reason he may fall into troubles and difficult situations. The Mediator relieves him from such mistakes."


Ah does this happen often?




> This was the single most diagnostic thing I have ever read about personality types. Why didn't we think about understanding my through my interaction with someone I know very well earlier (ie spouse?). Great call genius move!


It did seem to give more information :kitteh:




> ENTp I assume is loosely correlated with MBTI ENTP? I know for 'Judgers' the relationship is less clear though between the systems.


It's correlated decently well. NT would not differ between the systems, I/E J/P can.




> Single most effective line defining how I evaluate most everything that pops into my head.
> 
> "He prefers to think about immediate possibilities (Ne) and what can be done to materialize them (Ti) rather than to dwell on the outcome of what might or might not be."


The latter part would be about Ni leading types's passivity, I think.


I see you quoted it from the Ni of ENTp... How do you relate to the other parts: _"While the ILE may seem entirely spontaneous to the observer, he will often plan extensively for the fallout of his ideas in order to rally the support of others and guide it towards actualization."_ Do you seem spontaneous like that to others?


Also, I think a _defining _feature for ENTp is: _"ILEs are obsessed with how things work, and how they will work together. Understanding how something works is merely the baseline for the ILE. When the ILE finds something new or interesting he thinks about how it could be used in conjunction with other objects he has come into contact with in the past."_


One more thing. You jumped on the EIE description with similar enthusiasm before  If you were to compare the two, what would you say?


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

Quick note/summary: what I am convinced about (that will not change, seems too solid) for you:

1) ENxx
2) Fe over Fi


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

@zedarko I wonder how things are going with this.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> @zedarko I wonder how things are going with this.


Digging back in now -- will update tomorrow morning.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> @zedarko I wonder how things are going with this.


I have been on travel! I am back now ---- I had a lot of time to give your assessment thought and my own behavior decision making process I also agree with your assessment that EN for sure -- and Fe over Fi.

Since putting on the ENXX hat --- I feel in flow, (less closed off!) I am attempting to capitalize on that strength at work on home and its working wonders -- I do think I have been in one of the below loops for a good long while, trying now to figure out which of the three has been more often true for me:

"ENFJ Fe-Se loop: An ENFJ in an Fe-Se loop seeks external validation and pours themselves into others without being able to consider their personal feelings or take time to consider themselves. They become particularly sensitive to others’ view of them and their image, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They over-socialize and look to fulfill their short term impulses and desires."

"ENTP Ne-Fe loop: An ENTP in an Ne-Fe loop would imagine a bunch of negative future scenarios and lose sight of reality as they fail to apply logic to their unrealistic beliefs. In addition, they become extremely sensitive to others’ opinions of them and are extremely concerned with being accepted by those around them and feeling disliked."

"ENTJ Te-Se loop: An ENTJ in a Te-Se loop becomes power hunger, grabbing at anything that can bolster their image or control without considering the sensibility behind these actions, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They become overly concerned with “doing” all of the time, unable to let themselves stop to take a break. They become forceful, aggressive, insistent upon taking action whether or not it hurts those around them." 

Can you describe what each loop looks/acts like,... - Confessions of a Myers Briggs-aholic


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

double post! (deleted)


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> I have been on travel! I am back now ---- I had a lot of time to give your assessment thought and my own behavior decision making process I also agree with your assessment that EN for sure -- and Fe over Fi.
> 
> Since putting on the ENXX hat --- I feel in flow, (less closed off!) I am attempting to capitalize on that strength at work on home and its working wonders -- I do think I have been in one of the below loops for a good long while, trying now to figure out which of the three has been more often true for me:


Hey. Glad the ENxx typing* works for you. 

*: (half-typing, anyway lol)




> "ENFJ Fe-Se loop: An ENFJ in an Fe-Se loop seeks external validation and pours themselves into others without being able to consider their personal feelings or take time to consider themselves. They become particularly sensitive to others’ view of them and their image, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They over-socialize and look to fulfill their short term impulses and desires."
> 
> "ENTP Ne-Fe loop: An ENTP in an Ne-Fe loop would imagine a bunch of negative future scenarios and lose sight of reality as they fail to apply logic to their unrealistic beliefs. In addition, they become extremely sensitive to others’ opinions of them and are extremely concerned with being accepted by those around them and feeling disliked."
> 
> "ENTJ Te-Se loop: An ENTJ in a Te-Se loop becomes power hunger, grabbing at anything that can bolster their image or control without considering the sensibility behind these actions, obsessing over ways to bolster this image through material goods and sensory experiences. They become overly concerned with “doing” all of the time, unable to let themselves stop to take a break. They become forceful, aggressive, insistent upon taking action whether or not it hurts those around them."


I think the loop theory is not very good tbh. I don't find the behavioural descriptions or the motivations as described as specific enough to type. Other things can cause behaviour and such rather general motivations can come from elsewhere.

Checking out inferior function and its problems is a better way to go about it if you feel you have function related issues.

If you could describe the issue in as much depth or detail as possible that would be helpful. Still interested in that other topic to about "what this dynamics of the office/friendship circle may look like, via an example", if you think this is still possible to describe.


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> Hey. Glad the ENxx typing* works for you.
> 
> *: (half-typing, anyway lol)
> 
> ...


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

zedarko said:


> *If you could describe the issue in as much depth or detail as possible that would be helpful. Still interested in that other topic to about "what this dynamics of the office/friendship circle may look like, via an example", if you think this is still possible to describe.*
> 
> I gave this a lot of thought -- basically I was everyone's therapist --- mostly women but some men as well. self-worth, pressure, aspirations, stress resolution, career counseling, hobbies, their kids' lack of ambition. I sought mostly to advise commiserate and offer constructive gentle criticism where I could.
> 
> Lately I have started to see a lot of INFJ tendencies. Given that is one of the types that can appear more extroverted (high order Fe), its consistent with much of what I have come know about myself.


Hmm, self-worth, and stress resolution, what sort of advice would you give to them about those?


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

@zedarko

still INFJ? lol


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## zedarko (Sep 30, 2016)

myst91 said:


> @zedarko
> 
> still INFJ? lol


No idea hah! Been on a long project away from the forums and civilization really. I have all intents and purposes given up on trying to figure my type out. The help you provided was very welcome though. I might give it another go at some point.

Though honestly..... _*ENTP*_


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