# A troubling but interesting trait of mine.



## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

So I've come to notice this particular trait of mine throughout these past few weeks. It urks me, but it's deadly accurate. This trait allows me to categorize a collective group with a name that fit's it's governing characteristic or aura. I don't look at the individual characters within the group either. The name just comes up when I see a whole lot of one powerful characteristic group up at one time. It's kinda like a gathering of rotten fruit. I can't distinguish the rotten apples from the rotten oranges because they're all ultimately rotten to me. The external difference is irrelevant to me. This trait tends to show it's head when I'm in public. When I don't like what I see of my own man, I then begin thinking why. This then causes me to reflect on noticed patterns exhibited by humanity. Finally, this all ends when I assign a pattern to a collective group of people and then name said group. This process is never positive either. I see the negative, so therefore I collect and name the negative.

Does this relate to a function? If not, then what does it sound like to you?


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## Oprah (Feb 5, 2014)

So like... _"Becky works at the bank, and therefore she's boring. Because everyone else who works at the bank is boring."_ Is that what you're trying to say here? 

It sounds like more of an emotional growth concept to me.

Also be careful.. because _"assigning a pattern to a collective group of people"_ can veer into some pretty sketchy world views depending on what you meant by "collective group." o_o


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

You mean stereotyping? Being quick to judge?


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

"So like... "Becky works at the bank, and therefore she's boring. Because everyone else who works at the bank is boring." 

No. More like " This bank is malicious and nefarious. This is because of these protected blue collars. They smile and take, smile and take. Greet and meet for the ignorant naivete. The government's demons." 

When I said "collective group", I meant societal parts of society that make for nasty collectives. They have this noticeable aura about them that I assign unto them through pattern recognition.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

No. I don't stereotype. Nor am I quick to judge. My judgments come from long periods of reflection. These reflections are typically started from the disappointing patterns exhibited by society.


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## PiT (May 6, 2017)

Do you apply these descriptions to individuals within those groups or strictly to the groups?


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## Tyche (May 12, 2011)

Why is the bank malicious? What did banks ever do to you?


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

I apply these descriptions to groups who have individuals with very similar energies. It's like a connector of negative energy. That's when I appoint descriptions.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

The bank fosters a system of people who will smile in your face and placate you to lose %'s of your money to provide for the lesser man's schemes.


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## Liove (Sep 16, 2017)

Ni-Fe: A description of an individual or group of individuals outside yourself that is predicated on convergent subcontexts


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

So basically, I describe individuals based on the unevident information I collect?


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## Liove (Sep 16, 2017)

Yes. The unevident information is convergent in nature.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

You'd be correct then. But, I don't value Fe. Heck, I'm pretty sure mines is dead. I just notice the nasty patterns of the nasty groups that run rampant in humanity. This would be through the convergence of the unevident.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

@*Pessimissing *
What you posted reminds me of several other Ne users EXTP mainly ENTP.
It seems that maybe your Fe is trying to nudge up some so your Ne is processing this information.

Your post was complete obvious N trait , I would say your traits is following thru of Ne with a Function of Fe interrupting the usual Ne/Ti So instead of Ne following thru with the usual Ti, the uprising of a tad of Fe is causing a little bit of confusion or at least at first. In a way the Ne can't really grasp just yet the concept because it hasn't yet found the right grasping point to understand fluently so it stay's upon an Intuitive thought raw and true thus your fruit comment.

With a possible INTP as well so XNTP conflicting traits it seems


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't think I use Ne. I see similarities in the unevident information. Then, I get a sense of the nasty governing characterisitic through said similarities. After I understand the governing characteristic, I begin to make labels that converge the nasty individuals into one mass connected by the governing characteristic. Unlike Ne, I never use anything extrinsic of the collective individuals to make my judgments. I always focus in and analyze the individuals to gain an understanding of the governing pattern that's controlling the formed mass.


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## Lady of Clockwork (Dec 14, 2017)

It doesn't relate to a singular function, no; but it does sound like a dom-Pe/inf-Pi. Possibly ESTP, with Fe and Ni lower on the spectrum, and with a pessimistic mindset, as your name entails -- unless I've got them back to front, and you're an ISTJ.

It sounds like you need to observe less, inventing your own theories about collective groups, and gain more experience by associating yourself a bit more.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Etherea said:


> Why is the bank malicious? What did banks ever do to you?


Dodgy loans...


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

So you state that I either use Se+Ni or Ne+Si according to Pe dominance and Pi inferiority. 

Se+Ni: I'm definitely not a Se dom. In fact, I get depressive when I experience the moment. Mind you, it's not because of the moment that I get depressed. It's truly because I find the moment to be ultimately meaningless and transparent. I find no meaning in experiencing something that's irrelevant to my being and my purpose for being. When I experience life, I tailor it to align with my self-perceived purpose. Otherwise, I become almost lifeless if what I'm experiencing feels unrelated to said purpose. So if anything, Ni pulls my Se and not the other way around.


Ne+Si: Ne and Si both would be shadowed. I'm aware of Ne, but I don't value it more than Ni. Ne at least has the tolerance to look at all of the extrinsics. I wouldn't look at all of the extrinsics unless I find them somehow related to my picture. I respect Si, but I don't value Si. I get very detached to things once they're of no importance to my purpose, regardless of their past attraction to me. I take what I need and throw it into my handbasket. No more, no less. I won't stick by something if that something doesn't help my goal. I'll use this analogy for Si vs Ni. The injured man with the crutches. The injured man with Ni would become aware that he alone can't recover. Therefore, he accepts the crutches and heals soon thereafter. Afterwards, he stores the crutches for their possible usefulness in the future. The injured man with Si becomes aware of the same issue and uses the crutches all the same for treatment. The difference is the relation with the crutches. The injured man with Si would form a bond with the crutches regardless of their possible usefulness. This bond would be formed out of the dependable strength of the crutches and how this strength helped heal the injured man with Si. The injured man with Si would give the crutches their due thanks and as a result would begin to advocate crutches for their loyalty.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

They smile and snatch. Smile and snatch......


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Pessimissing said:


> You'd be correct then. But, I don't value Fe. Heck, I'm pretty sure mines is dead. I just notice the nasty patterns of the nasty groups that run rampant in humanity. This would be through the convergence of the unevident.


Btw, you sound like a young Ti dom to me.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Sei35 said:


> I don't agree with how he dealt with the problem, but the "normies" label is quite accurate imho. My INTJ and I would laugh together about how "normies" are so different from us. How our lives are that much harder because we're just a bit off from normal and how lonely it is to be like us and... then it's not funny anymore...
> 
> Well, joke's on the "normies" when they're wrong though. hah.


Sei35 Remember that this is wrong..... you know nothing about those people you are labeling. They could have had much harder lives than you. They could be at the verge of suicide. You wouldn't know. You should read about "The Other" as well. It might help. 
It's dangerous thinking, imo. 
https://othersociologist.com/otherness-resources/


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Pessimissing said:


> That's funny. I thought of myself as an 8w9. But, 5 has been a very competitive contender. In fact, if I were to ignore the wing part of the enneagram, I'd most certainly be an 8w5 or a 5w8. I have equally dominating traits from both 8 and 5. They're almost like dual-modes that can't work in unison. 8 causes me to see life as a constant battle. It sometimes has me forget the moment and the forethought pertaining to the present in order to dominate the present given to me. I won't lie, those moments feel good and satisfying. 8 helps me reveal without fear. It's because of this honesty that I am fearless and unabashed to the public. 5 causes me to sit back and reflect. It reminds me that life requires a rational mind for conquest. It reminds me that no action is truly too difficult as long as I'm mentally prepared for it. 5 allows me to understand my fellow man in a way in which my fellow man won't allow themselves to. It's given me the eyesight and mental endurance to handle the pains of the light of truth. Sadly, due to these two approaches to life, I feel very similar to a lone hermit who wonders the wastes. No moment in life do I feel free and serene. Therefore, being a 584 or 854 kinda sucks.


It does make sense that you are torn between 8 and 5, because the 8 disintegrates to 5 and the 5 integrates to 8. I think both types share some characteristics. There is a theory that even if you aren't "integrated" or "disintegrated", you may adopt traits of your arrow types. So there's that.


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## Aiwass (Jul 28, 2014)

Alesha said:


> Sei35 Remember that this is wrong..... you know nothing about those people you are labeling. They could have had much harder lives than you. They could be at the verge of suicide. You wouldn't know. You should read about "The Other" as well. It might help.
> It's dangerous thinking, imo.
> https://othersociologist.com/otherness-resources/


Take it easy.

I mean, I get it that you are very well-intentioned here, and what you say is at least partially true.
But there is a vast difference between putting people into boxes and wanting to harm them in any way. Sometimes I joke with my friends about stereotypes in very informal situations, but does that mean I would hurt someone or become a criminal? NO. That doesn't even mean I take stereotypes seriously.

I think the tendency to see people according to collectivity/groups is not dangerous per se. People need plenty of other problems to become violent in the first place.


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## Liove (Sep 16, 2017)

That's some impressive Ti, though.


Please describe what happens when you are in 'the present moment' in a social atmosphere.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

Alesha said:


> Sei35 Remember that this is wrong..... you know nothing about those people you are labeling. They could have had much harder lives than you. They could be at the verge of suicide. You wouldn't know. You should read about "The Other" as well. It might help.
> It's dangerous thinking, imo.
> https://othersociologist.com/otherness-resources/


It is dangerous but it is also fair. Other people also label me, consciously or subconsciously, without getting to know me. It is normal and necessary for people to make assumptions, and I just happen to get the short end of the stick often. I get what you are trying to say, but consider the effort and energy it would take. Why should I go the extra mile in getting to know and understanding other people, on top of my everyday difficulties, when these other people won't do the same for me? 

In the end, we only need information that is enough to work on. Consider this also, every time I try to explain my mental condition to others in real life, it only leads to further confusion, even discrimination. I don't believe this is done on purpose by most people, but that's how it goes. The only difference between this and that is that the OP and I are more aware of our "base assumptions", whereas most people go about this subconsciously, do what is normal, or follow the crowd. Hence the terms "normies", "zombies" and "soulless".

The OP is intelligent, and has found a great way to simplify his life, imo.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

Pessimissing said:


> @*Sei35* You said you went from disgusted to bored when it came to other people. Would this indicate a progress from rebuking anger to calmed anger? To answer your question, I find that people to cluster themselves into soulless groups purely out of a fear of difference, conflict, abandonment, and loss. They fear the painful search of truth. In my opinion, to truly find yourself, you must first separate yourself from the masses. Only then, will you be able to find the light that will only accept your true self.


You said earlier that you have no desire to change humanity. Are you sure about this? Not even in a very small sense? Because if that's the case, there is no point in socializing with anyone. Hermiting would suit you.

I went from rebuking anger to hopeless anger to pure despair. I have the same fears as the masses, even more so, therefore I can't blame them. I can only sit and wait for the inevitable loss of my soul.


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## ButIHaveNoFear (Sep 6, 2017)

Sounds like a wronged, isolated, and hopeless INFJ to me. Ni and Ti are the acting pair here. It appears that Ti is a crutch and servant of the Ni, so I don't think the type is ISTP. Fe has been rejected, aside from subject matter interest, and Se perceptions are disregarded. Plus, these thoughts just _sound_ like INFJs I know when they get sucked into their critical inner world and don't trust anybody or anything. 

The tertiary function is looping with the dominant to make this obsessive, withdrawn, overly-analytical, "wrongly concluding" mental engine. Healthy preferencing of the dom and tert probably wouldn't come to these conclusions, which is why I put that last thing in quotes. I think a vacation is in order, like a camping trip to clear the mind, or a road trip with lots of nice food. Or further probe the conclusions you make—try to pester your subjects with questions and see what makes them tick. Do something to entice the extroversion.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

ButIHaveNoFear said:


> Sounds like a wronged, isolated, and hopeless INFJ to me. Ni and Ti are the acting pair here. It appears that Ti is a crutch and servant of the Ni, so I don't think the type is ISTP. Fe has been rejected, aside from subject matter interest, and Se perceptions are disregarded. Plus, these thoughts just _sound_ like INFJs I know when they get sucked into their critical inner world and don't trust anybody or anything.
> 
> The tertiary function is looping with the dominant to make this obsessive, withdrawn, overly-analytical, "wrongly concluding" mental engine. Healthy preferencing of the dom and tert probably wouldn't come to these conclusions, which is why I put that last thing in quotes. I think a vacation is in order, like a camping trip to clear the mind, or a road trip with lots of nice food. Or further probe the conclusions you make—try to pester your subjects with questions and see what makes them tick. Do something to entice the extroversion.


I 100% agree.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Sei35 said:


> It is dangerous but it is also fair. Other people also label me, consciously or subconsciously, without getting to know me. It is normal and necessary for people to make assumptions, and I just happen to get the short end of the stick often. I get what you are trying to say, but consider the effort and energy it would take. Why should I go the extra mile in getting to know and understanding other people, on top of my everyday difficulties, when these other people won't do the same for me?
> 
> In the end, we only need information that is enough to work on. Consider this also, every time I try to explain my mental condition to others in real life, it only leads to further confusion, even discrimination. I don't believe this is done on purpose by most people, but that's how it goes. The only difference between this and that is that the OP and I are more aware of our "base assumptions", whereas most people go about this subconsciously, do what is normal, or follow the crowd. Hence the terms "normies", "zombies" and "soulless".
> 
> The OP is intelligent, and has found a great way to simplify his life, imo.


This doesn't simplify. It skews. It is un-balanced.


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## ButIHaveNoFear (Sep 6, 2017)

Alesha said:


> I 100% agree.


I see there's a bit of a scuffle going on above me, so I want to clarify that my previous comment was about the OP and nobody else.
:yeah:


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

ButIHaveNoFear said:


> I see there's a bit of a scuffle going on above me, so I want to clarify that my previous comment was about the OP and nobody else.
> :yeah:


No probs. I don't think the OP would identify himself as INFJ though, as he doesn't value Fe.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

@Liove When I'm present within society, I tend to play observer and wait for the inevitable idiocy to happen. When the eventual idiocy happens, I look at the actors. Their motives, feelings, logicisms, and truthful personas are all unmasked at that moment. In that moment, I see cannabilistic monsters who seek to overpower one another for vain gratifications. Those who watch and bask are just as cannabilistic and are therefore just as disgusting as the actors.
@Alesha I never once said that I felt superior to my idiotic man. I just simply point out who is who. Pride to me is a bitter father. It rewards you when you represent it, but it also whips you when you act against it. I instead simply feel strong when I'm passionate about something and weak when I'm foreign, unprepared, and vulnerable to something. Words like superiority, pride, and elitism are for people who can't detach from the prison of society's ego. Also, I'm not gonna become a criminal based just on my cynicisms. I'm just heavily disturbed by my own specie is all. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, I love it. It gives a perpetual topic to think about.
@Aiwass That's interesting to think about. It also kind of gives me a headache to think about. Based on what you said, I thought of my strong attractions to 5 and 8 to be like an infinity loop. 4's bridge creates a connection point between the two fixes though. This imagery makes sense to me since neither my 8 nor my 5 are integrated. Instead, they work interconnectedly to form a coexistent balance with one another. What's your tritype? I'd like to see if this idea is logical.
@Sei35 I agree with you. Idealism is an easy blindfold to truth. Why play the punching bag when I can play the thinker. When dealing with humanity, I've come to learn of two very real possibilities. One: Trying to heal humanity becomes useless when there are a multitudinous amount people who are doing the exact opposite; willpower and determination be damned. It just ain't worth it in the big picture. We've doomed ourselves. Don't carry that on your shoulders. Two: You reject the stapled dogmas of altruism and selfishness. You become "altruistic" when you give and receive nothing but pain. On the other hand, you become "selfish" when you want something for yourself because doing otherwise will most likely damn you in the big picture. In the long term, following either of these paths will do nothing but harm you. Ultimately, I'd say to just ignore humanity's implaced dogmas and swim your on your own sense of righteousness. You'll become hated by the average mind, but oh well. About your question, I'd most likely become a hermit then. Humanity's sense of right and wrong is too much of a prison anyways. They want and take and give you nothing but pained palms and broken hopes. 
@ButIHaveNoFear Fe is definitely my inferior. I'm inept when it comes to interpersonal connection with my fellow man. You'd be correct on my Ti acting like my crutch though. It makes low of what I see on the road of my Ni. I can definitely be cruel when I use Ti as a result. While I do Ni value, Ti is so close that I can't tell the difference sometimes. Everything else is far below these two in valuing. Se is my tert by the way.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=630ikWb61cs
See 17:00 about Ni-Ti together. See 19:00 for what I think is going on here...I hope....this was your reveal? Go earlier around 14:00 for my reaction as a Fi user and also note that this all sounds completely crazy to Ne-Si who sees where this kind of troubled thought could lead to and has led others. Do you INFJs need to play with fire? It’s hard for me to see how far you could let yourself go with this since even a thumb nail of this thinking seems faulty to me. Why entertain thoughts like these at all? I’m connected to what actually is and thinking like yours does not reflect fact or reality to me. I have explored thousands of minds and people are not soulless. My Fi then yells to cut you off at the pass when I hear any dehumanizing of people.
Anyway, if you are inclined to thinking of structures and how we got current structure, it’s not fair to blame fellow victims, is it? Like let’s say you are a soldier, would it make sense to blame the war on your fellow soldiers? We are in this together.
A close INFJ friend of mine uses his mind to research economic math ideas and structures in order to help people in developing countries. I’m super proud of him. That’s the kind of thing I expect a good INFJ mind to go to work on.
You could join a good cause where you use Se to help others and get more Fe development to make decisions in the outside world that actually reflect compassion and understanding. There are lots of good causes out there. Good luck.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Alesha said:


> Sei35 Remember that this is wrong..... you know nothing about those people you are labeling. They could have had much harder lives than you. They could be at the verge of suicide. You wouldn't know. You should read about "The Other" as well. It might help.
> It's dangerous thinking, imo.


And yet you judge Sei35 and Pessimissing for judging people while you judge them.

In response to your comment to me, Pessimissing is not the one who seems mentally unhealthy.

I don't know how you are unable to see Ti throughout Pessimissing comment's. He seems very much INTP.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

@myjazz I disagree with the INTP judgment. However, I'd still like to see your reasons on why you think I'm an INTP.


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## myjazz (Feb 17, 2010)

Pessimissing said:


> @*myjazz* I disagree with the INTP judgment. However, I'd still like to see your reasons on why you think I'm an INTP.


One of the troublesome descriptions of Ni and Ti is that they make them seem the same. I will go over more in detail little later if you want.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

I'd appreciate that myjazz.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

myjazz said:


> One of the troublesome descriptions of Ni and Ti is that they make them seem the same. I will go over more in detail little later if you want.


Depending on the source you read, it's very easy to identify with different ordered functions. So maybe you can just say that you fit one type better in one person's model or description, and another type better in another person's model or description, etc.


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## Fennel (Jan 11, 2017)

myjazz said:


> And yet you judge Sei35 and Pessimissing for judging people while you judge them.
> 
> In response to your comment to me, Pessimissing is not the one who seems mentally unhealthy.
> 
> I don't know how you are unable to see Ti throughout Pessimissing comment's. He seems very much INTP.


The difference between me and Pessimissing is the difference between unhealthy and healthy. It is not so much the beliefs themselves but the ability to consciously choose your beliefs. What I do subconsciously and sloppily is done consciously and perfected by the OP.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

@Sei35 What you said just now was interesting. Are you saying that Ti chooses the most rational belief in relation to the external tension present? I may be assuming this, but are you also saying that I act much more like a Ti-dominant than a Ni-dominant? I'm asking this since you said that I was masterful in Ti. But, I may also be assuming this too from what you just said.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Aristocracy in Socionics?


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

RGB said:


> Aristocracy in Socionics?


I don't follow. Can you elaborate?


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Pessimissing said:


> I don't follow. Can you elaborate?


Socionics Dichotomies: R2t3


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

I'm definitely more socionically aristocratic. This might define why I'm so dismissive to people of whom I deem as corporate and boring.

Edit: This may also be why I'm innately attracted to people who I perceive as unique and societally unaffected.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Pessimissing said:


> This may also be why I'm innately attracted to people who I perceive as unique and societally unaffected.


No one is societally unaffected.


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## 543452 (Mar 15, 2015)

RGB said:


> No one is societally unaffected.


I guess what I said was a bit too simple. To sum what I truly meant, I don't like the common tendencies of man. Therefore, I seek to only live by my own. Nonetheless, you're correct. I live this way because of what I've experienced from society.


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