# Would you forgive a cheater?



## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

This news has been on the website. I've watched all movies of Twilight and I would watch the last installment. But this scandal has left me questioning the actress' morality. I'm not a fan of her but after reading the article I got turned off by her infidelity. Usually, guys cheat, but now? Girls are leveling if not surpassing the cheating and betrayal they do to their SO. If you're a guy with a SO who cheats, would you forgive her? Are you willing to take her back? If my SO cheats on me, I would never take him back. We're better off as friends if we got kids. If I was single, I would forgive but we will never be friends ever! Because if your partner cheats, it means there is something wrong in your relationship, he/she doesn't love you anymore, he/she is not happy with you anymore. So it would be fair to set each other free. To unload the guilt of the cheater, and to help the aggrieved one to move on.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Forgive? Sure. I won't be hung up about it. I seriously doubt I'd continue the relationship though. Forgiveness doesn't mean the restoration of all trust.

Edit: In answer to your below question, my ego would be fine.  It would dictate that she's a douche, and that I'd be better off without her.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

To the guys, would it be hard for your ego to take if you found out that your current girlfriend or wife has had sex with somebody else? Are you willing to forgive her and take her back if she say "sorry"?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

I might forgive, though it's unlikely. Infidelity would mark the end of the relationship, however.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Sovereign said:


> Forgive? Sure. I won't be hung up about it. I seriously doubt I'd continue the relationship though. Forgiveness doesn't mean the restoration of all trust.
> 
> Edit: In answer to your below question, my ego would be fine.  It would dictate that she's a douche, and that I'd be better off without her.


What if she said sorry and said that she loves you still and also asks for one more chance? Wouldn't you think twice at giving her a second chance?


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Boss said:


> I might forgive, though it's unlikely. Infidelity would mark the end of the relationship, however.


What if s/he promised not to do it again and you love that person so much, won't you give that person another chance?


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> What if she said sorry and said that she loves you still and also asks for one more chance? Wouldn't you think twice at giving her a second chance?


It would depend upon the context of the situation. She'd have to provide some very good reason that her actions don't match her words. If she really loved me, she wouldn't have put herself in a situation where the infidelity was a legitimate possibility. The only other obvious possibility would be that she was too stupid to see it coming, which would be equal grounds for dismissal. She'd have to convince me I'm wrong.


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## Out0fAmmo (Nov 30, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> What if s/he promised not to do it again and you love that person so much, won't you give that person another chance?


It depends on the circumstances, but generally speaking, there are no second chances. People don't change, so if she cheated once, she's probably going to do it again.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm going to take a perhaps trolling stance here (unintentionally) and say that men and women cheat for different reasons. Men are much more capable of separating their sexual side from their emotional side. Just because a man cheats doesn't mean he does not love his SO. It just means he doesn't love her enough to not cheat on her or that he doesn't find his woman sexually appealing anymore. I might still love and care deeply for my SO, but if she were to gain 150 lbs, that would be the end of my sexual feelings for her and I would look to someone else to satisfy that need.

Women *tend* to have their sex drive aligned with their emotions. Any signs of cheating from a women, most definitely means the relationship is nearly dead because one side does not love the other. 

As such, being a man, I would leave my SO if she cheated on me. Even if she said she was sorry twice. *IF* I were to cheat on my SO, I would expect a second chance. Yep, that's right double standard.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

I would probably not be able to forgive a cheater, needless to say the relationship would end.


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## koalaroo (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm inclined to agree with people that the relationship would end. 

I am, however, inclined to say that I would eventually forgive such an egregious abuse and violation of my trust. I will note, though, that this process takes upwards of four or five years. I'm still not quite over my snitching roommate who told my mother every time I didn't go to class (I ended up on the President's List that semester, though, so I feel somewhat vindicated.) That's a whole different can of worms than cheating, but that's how my forgiveness process goes.


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## DemonD (Jun 12, 2012)

Would I forgive a cheater?

No.


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## Vicissitude (Jun 3, 2012)

I can eventually forgive the person. Just because I forgive them it doesn't mean I will take them back. Once you break my trust the relationship will be officially over.

I view cheating as a selfish action. The person wants to have their cake and eat it too or they're too much of a coward to end the relationship. The cheater is also putting their BF/GF at risk for a potential STD. The cheater could be going around having unprotected sex and catches something unknowingly and then gives it to their partner. Worse, what if they get pregnant/or someone else pregnant? 

Even though I'm female it would be a blow to my personal ego/pride. I would probably think " So what, I'm not good enough for you?" or that I am a fool for having trust in a dishonest person.


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## Tristan427 (Dec 9, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> What if she said sorry and said that she loves you still and also asks for one more chance? Wouldn't you think twice at giving her a second chance?


If she loved me she wouldn't have done it in the first place.


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## TrailMix (Apr 27, 2011)

I'd forgive, but the relationship would end without hesitation and I would lose a LOT of respect for them that they prolly wouldnt get back


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## disasterbunny (Jul 2, 2012)

I don't know really if I could forgive last time i just changed my phone no. But if a person told me about it I just might. It's not about my ego (which remains bigger than the planet itself it's about lying and i can see through the bullshit most of the time (i wish i couldn't ))


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

I'll negotiate anything with you, including open relationships. If you want to sleep with someone else, I won't hold it against you you'd just speak to me and we can work out if I want this to go ahead, or if I don't want to and you insist, we can end this relationship amicably can still be friends. As with anything else in a relationship, communication is paramount. Going behind my back is another matter. A man may "expect" a second chance after cheating, but it's too bad you don't always get what you want, nor do you deserve a second chance. You might love someone, but doing shitty things is still doing shitty things. You can even steal from someone you love, but don't expect her to take you back. I forgive, but with forgiveness comes ambivalence. That's how I forgive someone. 

I gain _perspective_, and see that on the long run you're not worth being in a relationship with. I also gain clarity, objectivity, and freedom from the hormones that enslave me emotionally to you, which also means I lose emotions toward you; anger, hatred or otherwise. I might still _like_ you, but liking someone is not the same as being emotionally vulnerable to someone, which is a prerequisite for love. So yeah, if I can find it in myself to forgive you, you're basically out. If I forgive you, it means you have no hold over me anymore. After that, my rationality kicks in and my Te tells me the right course of action and I'll rue the day I didn't listen to my trusty Te. Don't me wrong. A cheater is not an evil person. A cheater may be a good person but not good enough, amigo. Not good enough to be one of the special people I give a shit about, or to have access to my emotional core, or to have my children.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

No. No second chances. Never again. (I forgave my wife once - she did it again. Now I am a batchelor.)

I offer the following youtube clip for your consideration, a cheater caught. Warning: it is not work-friendly. Warning: it is brutal in many ways. I do not know if this is staged or real, though it has a raw emotional screwed-up lack-of-logic that makes it seem real to me. I know that I will catch SO much flak about this: I know that men cheat as well, this particular clip shows a cheating woman who was caught.

You might want to skip the clip and just read the analysis, I don't spare either the man or girl involved.






Let us analyze this.

A reasonably normal-looking scene, girl and guy in a tram, arms around each other, fairly happy-looking.

0:30 - surprise! Her: "What the hell is this?" Someone: "We're just curious if you recognize this gentleman."

0:40 - husband shows up. Her: "Oh my God, are you serious?" Him: "Is this serious, Olivia?" Her: "What the hell's wrong with you?!"

Note: She has been caught with another man, happily holding him close, by her husband. Her instant response once she realizes the jig is up: to attack the husband! Flat out she implies that something is wrong with him. He's caught her cheating (and men can be pretty oblivious so she must have been blatant) - and she is immediately implying that there is something wrong with HIM. Uh, yeah, for picking up on her signals of infidelity, apparantly he's not supposed to do that. Ever.

0:50 - he's saying that she's been caught on video tape walking and holding hands (obviously this wasn't a one-off madness or casual thing - it's serious, or at least serial, actions on her part). Her: "I cannot believe you did this! This is the most humilating thing that you could ever do! This is so ridiculous and invasive! How could you bring these people into our lives and our business!"

Note: More attacks, trying to divert the attention away from her behaviour and what she's done. He is the one at wrong for humiliating and shaming and invading her privacy. She attempts to shame HIM for involving other people in "their" business. I like the look on her face, to me it is a devil's-brew of rage attempting to cover something else - shame?

1:05 - whoops, he's starting to slip here. He's trying to explain why he's done this, to someone who isn't really interested in WHY - who is just attempting to shame-and-blame him for everything. Period. Unfortunately the fool has fallen into her trap and is attempting to justify HIS actions, instead of saying something along the lines of: "You're CHEATING with another man and you're trying to shame ME?!"

1:10 - she starts with abusive name-calling: "You're an idiot!" Given the way that he attempts to placate her, I definitely agree with that assessment: he is an idiot. At this point he's starting to show serious lack of balls. Pity because he did exceptionally well by getting up to this point at all. The proper response is something along the lines of: "You're a cheating slut."

1:20 - she attempts to run away from the cameras. More attempts at placation and reconciliation on his part.

1:35 - more screaming abuse and attempts to say that there is something wrong with him, plus shaming him by saying that he's not good in bed, and saying that he needs to be psychologically evaluated. 

2:05 - some explanation for the guy she was doing the cheating with (though its not clear if he knew that she was married or not).

2:15 - she seems practically incoherent. Him: "Three years Olivia!" Her: "I filed for divorce! Three months ago!" Oh, so they've been married for three years! And she filed for divorce without telling him, and is still living with him! Whatta schweeeeeetheart wife!

2:43 - more screaming abuse on her part: "I am sick and tired of you! I cannot stand you!" So that's an excuse for your cheating on your husband of three years? Unfortunately he gets down on his knees and begs her, effectively accepting all blame for her cheating behavior. Dude, you showed such promise in the way you caught your wife out - I have to ask, when did someone neuter you?

3:11 - more screaming abuse on her part, attempts at placation on his part. Her: "Don't touch me like a person! But you're not, you're an idiot, you're a weak (bleep) of a man! You're an idiot!" Yes, he should have taken his fists to her like Chris Brown to Rihanna. He's definitely showing his weakness there, in tolerating her bullshit behavior and language at all. Instead, him: "I'm not giving up this easy!" A real soft touch, he's saying that she's got him by the balls and can do whatever she wants and he'll tolerate it.

3:44 - she calls his mother.  So she really wants to parade her shitty behavior to as wide an audience as possible.

3:50 - Him: "Please, please, don't call my mom! Noooo!" He starts whining and blubbering. Her: "Gina? Gina! You could not believe what your son just did to me! Gina, I'm serious. And just so you know, I filed for divorce from your (bleeped) idiot son. That's it." She then keeps walking away.

4:05 - boyfriend tries to get Olivia out of the situation. Husband: "Are you serious about this? Are you serious about this?" Have to admire the boyfriend's loyalty, though he's showing a shitload more than Olivia showed her husband. Poor fool doesn't understand that she'll show him the same lack of loyalty if someone else captures her interest.

4:27 - hubby: "I changed my entire life for you!" Bad move, he made himself a mat from day-one. No wonder she felt that she could walk all over him with impunity - and tried to.

4:45 - more abuse from her: "You are a weak asshole!"

4:50 - hubby is sitting with his face in his hands. A load of random crapola that isn't exactly relevant.

5:29 - hubby: "Why did she have to do this to me?" Whining, so attractive, so manly - have to admit though, a very easy trap to fall into.

5:51 - hubby in back of a car or van: "She called my mom, man." And a whole lot of blubbering. Apparantly boyfriend can't hold down a job. Etc etc etc...

Question: would you want to go through that? As either man or woman.

Question: would you prefer it low-key and forgiving them? And then your partner doing it to you again? And again? And again?

Question: wouldn't it be better to be rid of such a low-quality partner permanently, the moment that their infidelity comes to light?

I am constantly surprised by how strange people can be (taken from the current PostSecret):










Note the plural: Mistresses. Why would a woman feel guilty for this? Did she get some sort of charge or validation from knowing that he had mistresses?

/confused mess, TL/DR: No. Never any second chances.


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## Ed S (Jul 27, 2012)

I have recently cheated and I have been cheated on. Sometimes a relationship just breaks down to nothing and you have to find meaning in your life somewhere else. I would forgive someone for it and may or may not want to continue the relationship. For me it's certainly a red flag that something is broken in the relationship. Somethings can be fixed somethings can't. Each situation is different some people are just cheaters in general. But I believe if two people really love each other it can be a chance to face some underlying problems that needed to addressed anyway and can actually be an opportunity for some real growth in a relationship that still has hope. Of course it can also be the catalyst that can move you out of a bad relationship which is what I'm going through now. I cheated because I wasn't happy with my SO and it confirmed that I needed to move on.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Would I forgive her? In a heart beat.

Would I ever date her again? Heck no. 

Betrayal is an act I won't stand for.


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## InLoveWithAWavelength (Jul 28, 2012)

I would forgive but not continue the relationship. They would have lost my trust and what's a relationship without trust? If i stayed i would be so paranoid and analyze everything they would do so it would not be a fulfilling relationship


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

@_Yardiff Bey_

The video is a completely fucked up situation. Both parties are pathetic. Instead of confronting his wife, the husband hires private investigators to dog her. The pathetic nature of Olivia, however, I do not need to expound on. If you feel insecure enough to spy on your spouse, you might as well divorce them. The trust is clearly gone. Lets just say if my husband hired a PI to spy on me, that alone is a ground for divorce. I'm not sure I agree with Olivia that he's not a "man". This isn't about masculinity. This is about taking initiative and facing your problems and doing your own dirty work, the upfront, the right way. Everybody should be a "man", if that's what being a man means.


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## Christie42476 (May 25, 2012)

Would I forgive him? Eventually, yes. Would I reconcile with him? No. Absolutely not. Even if he cried, begged and pleaded -- it wouldn't matter. Why? Because I don't trust easily, and once someone breaks it, I can't ever trust him completely again. It's a limitation of mine -- I acknowledge that -- but I can't change it, as it's a core aspect of who I am. And without trust, you've got nothing. No foundation upon which to build, or rebuild, a relationship.

As a result, if we did try to resume and repair the relationship, and he did everything right, _I_ would end up poisoning it with my constant distrust because I'd never be able to completely turn that off. In my mind, I'd be thinking, "Well, he did it before, so he could do it again." And if his reason for cheating had anything to do with something he found inadequate about me, I'd obsess over everything I might be doing wrong that could inspire him to do it again; I'd be besieged by chronic insecurity. 

Not healthy, for either of us. It would just plain suck. So, the relationship would be over. No second chance. 

But I'm upfront about that in a relationship. I always make it clear that infidelity is an absolute dealbreaker for me. I also make it clear that if there's something I'm doing or not doing, or some other aspect of me, that's causing my significant other to be tempted to infidelity, just freaking tell me about it (respectfully) _before _violating my trust, and I'll do everything in my power to resolve it. If it's not something I can change, I'll cop to that, and we can part ways amicably. So, as far as I'm concerned, there's no excuse for my significant other to be so weak and dishonorable as to cheat, and if he did, my attraction for him would die -- I'd be repulsed by the very thought of him ever touching me again -- so, again, there would be no saving our relationship, so there'd be no second chances. But I wouldn't hate him as a person, and I'd find a way to forgive him instead of holding onto the resentment. Overall, the whole thing would just make me sad.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Christie42476 said:


> Would I forgive him? Evenutally, yes. Would I reconcile with him? No. Absolutely not. Even if he cried, begged and pleaded -- it wouldn't matter. Why? Because I don't trust easily, and once someone breaks it, I can't ever trust him completely again. It's a limitation of mine -- I acknowledge that -- but I can't change it, as it's a core aspect of who I am. And without trust, you've got nothing. No foundation upon which to build, or rebuild, a relationship.
> 
> As a result, if we did try to resume and repair the relationship, and he did everything right, _I_ would end up poisoning it with my constant distrust because I'd never be able to completely turn that off. In my mind, I'd be thinking, "Well, he did it before, so he could do it again." And if his reason for cheating had anything to do with something he found inadequate about me, I'd obsess over everything I might be doing wrong that could inspire him to do it again; I'd be besieged by chronic insecurity.
> 
> ...


Everything you just said; even if he completely changes, I will stil ruin the relationship by being paranoid. I will be reasonable if you'd just _talked_ to me. But I won't reason with you if you close that channel first and take matters in your own hands. There are two in every relationship. Consider me.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

If by "forgive" you mean "stay in the relationship," then the answer is an unequivocal "no."

I make it clear from the beginning that I do not tolerate cheating. I also say that if I should cheat (which I don't), she should get rid of me. I do not do double standards. I expect to be held to the same standard.

When in a relationship, I am a one-woman man and will be there for her in every way to the best of my ability. If she cheats, then it's an "F You!" to me, showing that she didn't actually give a damn about me. Actions speak louder than words. I'm glad that being a Thinker, I can look at it rationally instead of having emotions cause me to act irrationally and make excuses for people (perhaps a stereotype, but in this case I'm grateful for it). The first time it happened, I changed my number because I was sick of her voice and her tearful excuses on my voicemail ("Baby, I'm sorry! I love you!" If you loved me, you wouldn't cheat on me. Yet if I did so, it would be because I was a "no good man." I TOLD you how it was from the beginning. Did you not think I was serious?), and completely erased her from my life. I deleted and threw away every picture of her and us, deleted her from my social messenging services, deleted every e-mail, letter and every piece of written correspondence, and moved. So there was zero chance of ever contacting me again. 

I do not play games. 

I do not care how much society has normalized cheating and infidelity and made it acceptable. I do not tolerate it, and I have zero problem with excising people who are not beneficial completely out of my life. I want nothing to do with cheaters. If you're capable of cheating once, you're capable of doing it again. You'll just try to be more careful about it and not get caught. I LOL at the notion of getting mad at the other guy and wanting to fight him over a cheater. My self-esteem is not so poor that I don't think I deserve better than someone who would cheat on me. He can have you.


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## Christie42476 (May 25, 2012)

Master Mind said:


> If by "forgive" you mean "stay in the relationship," then the answer is an unequivocal "no."
> 
> I make it clear from the beginning that I do not tolerate cheating. I also say that if I should cheat (which I don't), she should get rid of me. I do not do double standards. I expect to be held to the same standard.
> 
> ...


I agree with so much of this that thanking this post once didn't seem to be enough. I know I couldn't handle the situation as cleanly as you did -- that Fe thing of mine -- but I'd wish that I could. I'd be angry at first, but soon I'd internalize it and become depressed and then have to fight the feeling that there must have been something wrong with me for him to cheat on me rather than just talk to me about whatever issues he was having with the relationship, all the while knowing that those feelings are irrational because he was the one who chose to behave dishonorably.

But despite all of that, there is absolutely no chance I'd reconcile with a cheater. I would get through all that emotional muck...it'd just take me longer than others.


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Persephone said:


> @_Yardiff Bey_
> 
> The video is a completely fucked up situation. Both parties are pathetic. Instead of confronting his wife, the husband hires private investigators to dog her. The pathetic nature of Olivia, however, I do not need to expound on. If you feel insecure enough to spy on your spouse, you might as well divorce them. The trust is clearly gone. Lets just say if my husband hired a PI to spy on me, that alone is a ground for divorce. I'm not sure I agree with Olivia that he's not a "man". This isn't about masculinity. This is about taking initiative and facing your problems and doing your own dirty work, the upfront, the right way. Everybody should be a "man", if that's what being a man means.


I completely agree with you. I simply wanted to illustrate the whole mess, and that was a very over-the-top way of bringing such things out. Most people are more low-key about it than that, I certainly was.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

I would probably start with the words "BLYAT!" and "SUKA". And then comes the gradual erosion of their economic and social connections.. You have no respect for me. Why should I have any for you?


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## Neobick (Sep 2, 2010)

Never been in the situation. Probably I would have a hard time not ending the relationship. Though I find that people in general are too "black&white" in this. 

1# 
People makes mistakes, love is not a constant, it varies. People are impulsive, indecisive, insecure, all of that. Trying to deny that just so you can be sure of the underlying intent of an action is stupid.

2#
The possible relationship situation for this kind of scenario is great. You could be economically dependent, have kids, have invested in something big, having the time of your life for 3-4 years. Saying something like "No second chances" as a blanket statement is kind of pointless in an online discussion when other things than an illusionary concept of "eternal love" is on the line.

3#
People do change, though not much and not when they say they are going to. Though after a long period, let's say 5-10 years a person may have changed significantly. Though to be fair, its hard to know.


I would probably throw away the relationship in most cases, just because the inherent paranoia this would create. But I can't say that I would in all possible scenarios.

I would definilely forgive. Not enough forgiveness in the world as it is.


Edit: And I think a lot of you probably underestimates the power of a heavy FE-users manipulative plea for forgiveness, hopefully we all will avoid that trap


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

I would probably start with the words "BLYAT!" and "SUKA". And then comes the systematic destruction of their life. You have no respect for me. Why should I have any for you?


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Mutatio NOmenis said:


> I would probably start with the words "BLYAT!" and "SUKA". And then comes the systematic destruction of there life. You have no respect for me. Why should I have any for you?


Hahaha. I don't know what the first word means. I don't hear it used often. How I see it, is that I want to be in a relationship with a good person who will do right by others. It's not necessarily whether you'll do right by me, but one thing that makes me love someone is their integrity. I lose respect for you if you don't have integrity. While I may still love someone (because that's not all controlled by rationality) but I cannot have a relationship with somebody I cannot respect.


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## Impermanence (Apr 24, 2012)

No. All trust would be lost.


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## stone100674 (Jun 22, 2012)

I am an ISTJ. Cheaters? no. Once they violate my trust, it's done. I may agonize a little leading up to ending it, but it done. I don't want to be friends, I don't want to hear from her or see her: as far as I am concerned she no longer exists.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Neobick said:


> Never been in the situation. Probably I would have a hard time not ending the relationship. Though I find that people in general are too "black&white" in this.
> 
> 1#
> People makes mistakes


This actually annoys me. This isn't directed at you, but this is a general pet peeve of mine. A "mistake" is forgetting to get some milk while you were at the store. A "mistake" is "I apologize for earlier, I was being childish and stubborn." A "mistake" is not I-forgot-I-was-in-a-relationship-and-had-a-partner-so-I-cheated-with-this-person-who-is-not-my-partner. It's excuse-making. Everyone is responsible for his or her actions. Actions have consequences. You made a choice, so be willing to accept the consequences. That comes with choice. You can't discard it whenever it's "inconvenient" for you. If you do not wish to accept the consequences for your actions, then you must forfeit the ability to make choices. 

Otherwise, why stop there? A "mistake" is a "mistake" is a "mistake," right? The guy in Colorado "made a mistake" last week, right? Since "everyone makes mistakes," why don't we just forgive him and give him a second chance? Isn't he entitled to one? I disagree, as I don't make excuses for people and their actions. He made a choice, and now it's time for him to face the consequences.



Neobick said:


> love is not a constant, it varies.


Then be man or woman enough to *say so*. I let women know up front: if at any point your feelings for me change, just *let me know. *You can be free, and can be with the person you really want to be with _now_, with no hard feelings if you're simply honest with me, and at least we can end the relationship amicably and I will have respect for you because you were honest with me. That's all I ask. I don't think that's particularly difficult. I guess because I'm a Thinker, that's just the rational course of action to me.



Neobick said:


> 2#
> The possible relationship situation for this kind of scenario is great. You could be economically dependent, have kids, have invested in something big, having the time of your life for 3-4 years. Saying something like "No second chances" as a blanket statement is kind of pointless in an online discussion when other things than an illusionary concept of "eternal love" is on the line.


Perhaps people have standards and things they know they are unwilling to accept. IMO, more people need boundaries, because too many people accept any kind of crap a SO gives them. If you don't think you're worth a faithful partner, then you're not. Simple as that. It's all up to each individual person to draw the line as to what is or is not acceptable.



Neobick said:


> Edit: And I think a lot of you probably underestimates the power of a heavy FE-users manipulative plea for forgiveness, hopefully we all will avoid that trap


I am immune to any and all forms of manipulation. When you've grown up with a manipulator, you become inoculated against it and recognize when it's taking place. Or at least in my case, I was, to speak solely for me. I am vigilant against manipulation attempts. The last time a woman attempted to use her "feminine wiles" to manipulate me, I coldly rebuffed her and was insulted that she thought that because I was a man, she could bat her eyelashes and wrap me around her finger. Recently, someone attempted to "guilt trip" me, and I felt nothing. I can be completely cold at times, and a cheater attempting to plea for forgiveness is one of those times. I'm speaking from experience, because I was actually in that situation. I'm a left-brained person, and the logic was "If A, then B." "If [she cheats on you], then [she doesn't care about you]. Dump her." Attempts to appeal to my "feelings" will be futile, as I'll be thinking with cold, ruthless logic.


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## Adythiel (Jun 28, 2012)

This is one of those "It depends on the variables" things for me. Different situations would cause different reactions from me. As a baseline though, sure I'd forgive. But after that, the variables come into play.



Neobick said:


> Edit: And I think a lot of you probably underestimates the power of a heavy FE-users manipulative plea for forgiveness, hopefully we all will avoid that trap



Like Master Mind, I cannot be manipulated into doing something. I've dealt with enough manipulation that is has no effect on me any longer.


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## WishyWashy (Jul 26, 2012)

Yes. If he doesn't tell me about it.


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## Neobick (Sep 2, 2010)

Master Mind said:


> A lot of text


You seem to be under the impression that all humanity are superhumans and take all the right in the moment decisions to properly represent their feelings. I don't believe that is the case. I think insecurities, sudden urges and alcohol can make one go against them. Though I see your point regarding standards. 

I'm not trying to relieve the cheater of her/his guilt as much as you describe. She/he does something incredible stupid and/or wrong. She/he hurts another person a lot. As I wrote I can't really see myself staying in the relationship. But I wanted to emphasis the point that it is easy to be sure of something before it happens. Life is not a flowchart.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Master Mind said:


> I am immune to any and all forms of manipulation. When you've grown up with a manipulator, you become inoculated against it and recognize when it's taking place. Or at least in my case, I was, to speak solely for me. I am vigilant against manipulation attempts. The last time a woman attempted to use her "feminine wiles" to manipulate me, I coldly rebuffed her and was insulted that she thought that because I was a man, she could bat her eyelashes and wrap me around her finger. Recently, someone attempted to "guilt trip" me, and I felt nothing. I can be completely cold at times, and a cheater attempting to plea for forgiveness is one of those times. I'm speaking from experience, because I was actually in that situation. I'm a left-brained person, and the logic was "If A, then B." "If [she cheats on you], then [she doesn't care about you]. Dump her." Attempts to appeal to my "feelings" will be futile, as I'll be thinking with cold, ruthless logic.


I admire this a lot. I'm not speaking for all INTJ women but it seems that's where the sexes differ. I would be devastated- I'm not sure if you would be, and would agonize over it for a long time. In the back of my mind my Te (ie. cold, hard logic) would have already concluded: "If he cheats on you, he doesn't care about you. Dump him." But my Fi will overwhelm my Te and distract me from what I really need to do. But no amount of Fi will change the conclusion though. When the feelings wear off I will revert to my cold, rational default setting and dump him, but first, I will procrastinate, falling into an abyss of dark emotions. When I get even one moment of clarity I will seize this opportunity and do it. And then after that I might fall into the abyss again. It takes me some time.


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## bromide (Nov 28, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> This actually annoys me. This isn't directed at you, but this is a general pet peeve of mine. A "mistake" is forgetting to get some milk while you were at the store. A "mistake" is "I apologize for earlier, I was being childish and stubborn." A "mistake" is not I-forgot-I-was-in-a-relationship-and-had-a-partner-so-I-cheated-with-this-person-who-is-not-my-partner. It's excuse-making. Everyone is responsible for his or her actions. Actions have consequences. You made a choice, so be willing to accept the consequences. That comes with choice. You can't discard it whenever it's "inconvenient" for you. If you do not wish to accept the consequences for your actions, then you must forfeit the ability to make choices.


Precisely. That language of 'mistakes' always gets on my nerves, "Oops, I accidentally tripped and my dick landed right in her vag I tell you, right in it!"

I don't forgive cheating, I cut that person out of my life entirely and move on. I'm perfectly fine with people who want open or polyamorous relationships, but I don't want to be in a relationship with them. Let's put all of the emotional betrayal aspects aside here, one of the worst things you can do to someone in a relationship is to give them an STD that you got from cheating on them. Think about that for a second, a lot of people in relationships have unprotected sex because they know they're clean and they're using birth control. One partner cheats and contracts an STD and due to the lack of disclosure that is the nature of cheating, their partner continues to have unprotected sex with them, blissfully ignorant until symptoms start showing. Horrendous.


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## illegal (Jul 27, 2012)

It would be dependent upon the situation, but yes, I have it in myself to forgive a cheater.


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## Noctis (Apr 4, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> What if s/he promised not to do it again and you love that person so much, won't you give that person another chance?


Nope. Once they do it, the trust is lost forever, and that second chance as well, since the person is capable of doing it again. If that person loved me enough, that person wouldn't have done it in the first place, and I would love that person well enough by being faithful.


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## Noctis (Apr 4, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> To the guys, would it be hard for your ego to take if you found out that your current girlfriend or wife has had sex with somebody else? Are you willing to forgive her and take her back if she say "sorry"?


I am sorry, I feel I would not, because once they do something so hurtful and embarrassing to me at that level, the strings of trust will be broken.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Absolutely not. I would lose all respect for that person. It would become a stain on their character and I would no longer be able to stomach being around them. The fact that they betrayed me would be enough for me to maintain disdain for them for a very long time. I think cheating in general is a huge smack in the face of the person cheated on. Its like taking a huge shit on their face and then asking for forgiveness. Since we all know the consequences of cheating, choosing to do so anyway means that you could give less of a fuck about your partner. And for that, the same sentiment would be returned on my end.


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## SlowPoke68 (Apr 26, 2010)

It depends. 

Live with the person? Need their support? Kids involved? Why did they cheat? Have you been a good partner? Did you give subtle (or not so subtle) hints that it would be tolerated in some way? Was the cheating emotional or just physical? Did you ever really trust this person in the first place, or were you both just screwing around with each other? Are they contrite? Has more stable emotional grounding developed in their efforts to explain and get back into your good graces? Were you kinda cheating in some way, too?

It gets complex. I know a lot of bitter middle-aged people who can't let go of an instance of cheating and end up cheating themselves out of something resembling happiness.


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## bromide (Nov 28, 2011)

Persephone said:


> I admire this a lot. I'm not speaking for all INTJ women but it seems that's where the sexes differ. I would be devastated- I'm not sure if you would be, and would agonize over it for a long time. In the back of my mind my Te (ie. cold, hard logic) would have already concluded: "If he cheats on you, he doesn't care about you. Dump him." But my Fi will overwhelm my Te and distract me from what I really need to do. But no amount of Fi will change the conclusion though. When the feelings wear off I will revert to my cold, rational default setting and dump him, but first, I will procrastinate, falling into an abyss of dark emotions. When I get even one moment of clarity I will seize this opportunity and do it. And then after that I might fall into the abyss again. It takes me some time.


Hmm, Fi is my dominant function and when something like cheating gets sifted through my values system, it shakes out as a reactionary fuck you sort of contempt. I feel immediate contempt for that person for violating my values (which in this case would be treating a partner with honesty and respect) and contempt for what I would perceive as their falseness as a person. I wouldn't procrastinate in dumping them because in my mind the relationship would be completely irreparable. Idk though, I suppose inferior Fi rears its head in different ways than dominant Fi. Any thoughts on that?


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## viva (Aug 13, 2010)

I would hope that I could eventually find the goodness in my heart to forgive them, but forgiveness does not equate to a second chance. If anyone ever cheated on me, that would signify the immediate end of the relationship. I know myself well enough to know that I would never be able to fully trust them again.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Neobick said:


> You seem to be under the impression that all humanity are superhumans and take all the right in the moment decisions to properly represent their feelings. I don't believe that is the case.


Again, this is nothing personal toward you, nor is this directed toward you. So don't take this the wrong way. 

But I hate this as well.

I absolutely *refuse* to except that it takes nothing less than being "superhuman" or being "perfect" in order for someone to not freaking cheat on their partner. I will never accept this. If this is the standard way of thinking for people, then I'm glad I got out of the dating scene, and I will never have anything to do with it again if this is what is acceptable. That way of thinking is exactly one of the problems I had; people don't seem to take relationships as seriously as I do. Apparently it's nothing more than something to pass the time, or something to do "because everyone else does it" and they don't want to "feel left out," or because it's a way to get free sex when you want.



Neobick said:


> I think insecurities, sudden urges and alcohol can make one go against them.


Then.

Live.

With.

The.

Consequences.



Neobick said:


> Though I see your point regarding standards.
> 
> I'm not trying to relieve the cheater of her/his guilt as much as you describe. She/he does something incredible stupid and/or wrong. She/he hurts another person a lot. As I wrote I can't really see myself staying in the relationship. But I wanted to emphasis the point that it is easy to be sure of something before it happens. Life is not a flowchart.


Most people don't know themselves well enough to know what they'd do when a situation occurs. They don't think about it. They live purely in the moment. Most people try to escape themselves through whatever their preferred method of choice. So how the hell would they know what they'll do in any given situation? But if cheating is no big deal for them, then that's the choice they've made, and _they'll_ have to live with that.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

bromide said:


> Let's put all of the emotional betrayal aspects aside here, one of the worst things you can do to someone in a relationship is to give them an STD that you got from cheating on them. Think about that for a second, a lot of people in relationships have unprotected sex because they know they're clean and they're using birth control. One partner cheats and contracts an STD and due to the lack of disclosure that is the nature of cheating, their partner continues to have unprotected sex with them, blissfully ignorant until symptoms start showing. Horrendous.


Outstanding point.

I _think_ I recall hearing somewhere—but I'm not uncertain, I'd have to look it up to confirm, so don't hold me to this—that people in relationships actually have a higher risk of contracting an STD, because at least people not in relationships will use condoms when having one-night stands or something. Whereas people in relationships have presumably already been tested for STDs, know they're clean, and thus protection may not be used, and thus when a partner cheats, he or she brings it back home to the partner, who is devastated when they've somehow gotten an STD when they *know* they haven't sexually been with anyone other than their partner. Which would then mean...

And I personally know of cases like this.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

INTJellectual said:


> To the guys, would it be hard for your ego to take if you found out that your current girlfriend or wife has had sex with somebody else?


Ego has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's pure logic.

If A, then B.

If [she cheats on you], then [she doesn't care about you].

Action: Dump her.

No ego is involved, nor emotions. Pure logic.

I let it be known from the beginning, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. Unless others, I mean exactly what I say. I also let it be known that I expect to be held to the same standard. I am not a hypocrite.



INTJellectual said:


> Are you willing to forgive her and take her back if she say "sorry"?


I will not take her back. I don't care what she "says." Again, logic. If A, then B:

If [words and actions of an individual conflict], then [always go with their actions].

As far as forgiveness, she will not continue to occupy my thoughts after the relationship has been terminated. I will get rid of her, then move on with my life.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

No, I wouldn't, and I would want to end the relationship. If sex is so important to them that they need to cheat on me, they can go and find someone else.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

bromide said:


> Hmm, Fi is my dominant function and when something like cheating gets sifted through my values system, it shakes out as a reactionary fuck you sort of contempt. I feel immediate contempt for that person for violating my values (which in this case would be treating a partner with honesty and respect) and contempt for what I would perceive as their falseness as a person. I wouldn't procrastinate in dumping them because in my mind the relationship would be completely irreparable. Idk though, I suppose inferior Fi rears its head in different ways than dominant Fi. Any thoughts on that?


Fi is actually tertiary for INTJs. Which is why I always laugh when they say how unfeeling they are. Lol, its hilarious. Fi is inferior for ENTJs and ESTJs, I believe.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

Starting here in your post pretty much sums me up:


Persephone said:


> I forgive, b*ut with forgiveness comes ambivalence.* That's how I forgive someone.
> 
> I gain _perspective_, and see that on the long run you're not worth being in a relationship with. I also gain clarity, objectivity, and freedom from the hormones that enslave me emotionally to you, which also means I lose emotions toward you; anger, hatred or otherwise. I might still _like_ you, but liking someone is not the same as being emotionally vulnerable to someone, which is a prerequisite for love. *So yeah, if I can find it in myself to forgive you, you're basically out*. *If I forgive you, it means you have no hold over me anymore*. After that, my rationality kicks in and my Te tells me the right course of action and I'll rue the day I didn't listen to my trusty Te. Don't me wrong. A cheater is not an evil person. A cheater may be a good person but not good enough, amigo. *Not good enough to be one of the special people I give a shit about, or to have access to my emotional core*, or to have my children.


The bolded especially.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

Master Mind said:


> I absolutely *refuse* to except that it takes nothing less than being "superhuman" or being "perfect" in order for someone to not freaking cheat on their partner. I will never accept this. If this is the standard way of thinking for people, then I'm glad I got out of the dating scene, and I will never have anything to do with it again if this is what is acceptable. That way of thinking is exactly one of the problems I had; people don't seem to take relationships as seriously as I do. Apparently it's nothing more than something to pass the time, or something to do "because everyone else does it" and they don't want to "feel left out," or because it's a way to get free sex when you want.


Whenever I hear someone say "I'm only human. I'm not perfect", I want to smack them in the face. The sheer volume of things that get catalogued under this excuse is ridiculous. Like you said, it doesn't take being superhuman to not cheat on your partner. Any person with an ounce of integrity and grain of self respect would be able to avoid doing so. So when people use this excuse, it makes me lose respect for them. Its a fucking cop out. If you're going to cheat, at least take responsibility for it. At least admit that it was a shitty thing to do. Trying to make it "human" is pathetic.


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't know.. probably not but if I could even the score and we truly loved each other maybe.. Then again I think the more you love them the harder it is to deal with cheating so I honestly don't know. 

I guess I'd probably dump them. But the thing is I've been tempted to cheat a lot too and I question if monogamy works even though I want it. 

So I don't know lol


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

bromide said:


> Hmm, Fi is my dominant function and when something like cheating gets sifted through my values system, it shakes out as a reactionary fuck you sort of contempt. I feel immediate contempt for that person for violating my values (which in this case would be treating a partner with honesty and respect) and contempt for what I would perceive as their falseness as a person. I wouldn't procrastinate in dumping them because in my mind the relationship would be completely irreparable. Idk though, I suppose inferior Fi rears its head in different ways than dominant Fi. Any thoughts on that?


I would think so. I don't have inferior Fi, by the way. I have tertiary. Inferior functions rarely get expressed, if at all, in my experience. I certainly don't express Se. When third or fourth functions come out they tend to be unhealthy, foreign or even destructive, and the user will have no idea what to do with that function. This is why your opposite type is your "shadow" type. You're essentially an ESTJ when you're stressed... But a very, very negative ESTJ. Your opposite type has your functions, but in the exact opposite order.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

INTJellectual said:


> What if s/he promised not to do it again and you love that person so much, won't you give that person another chance?


Nothing personal but this question roundly insults my intelligence. Actions speak louder than words, and I am no idiot who'd lap up a cheat's 'apology' and give them another chance. Where was the love when that person was disrespecting the trust I showed them by fucking around behind my back? And no, my love for a person quickly turns to hatred and then indifference the second they cheat.

I have 0 interest in being with a disrespectful, dishonest, spineless asshole. I would lose all respect for this person and would cut them out of my life forever.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

WishyWashy said:


> Yes. If he doesn't tell me about it.


Yes you would forgive if he lies about it?


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## Coburn (Sep 3, 2010)

With time I would forgive. But forgiveness does not mean a continuation of the relationship. Trust, once lost, is gone forever.

EDIT: @Boss So glad we've got a mind reader on here to write all my thoughts for me. Great job with that last post. Couldn't agree more.

@Chipps great post on the "I'm only human" excuse. I'd be right behind you to help with the smacking.

@bromide I'm inferior Fi (ESTJ here) and would have a similar reaction to yours. Cheating is not an acceptable trait in a mate, and I have absolutely no tolerance for it.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> This news has been on the website. I've watched all movies of Twilight and I would watch the last installment. But this scandal has left me questioning the actress' morality. I'm not a fan of her but after reading the article I got turned off by her infidelity. Usually, guys cheat, but now? Girls are leveling if not surpassing the cheating and betrayal they do to their SO. If you're a guy with a SO who cheats, would you forgive her? Are you willing to take her back? If my SO cheats on me, I would never take him back. We're better off as friends if we got kids. If I was single, I would forgive but we will never be friends ever! Because if your partner cheats, it means there is something wrong in your relationship, he/she doesn't love you anymore, he/she is not happy with you anymore. So it would be fair to set each other free. To unload the guilt of the cheater, and to help the aggrieved one to move on.


It is late, so I hope you don't mind if I skip the other comments .. but I always like replying to the questions of a friend ^__^


First off, I want to say who cares whether it was the man or the woman that cheated. Both sexes and all genders can cheat. I think it maybe more socially acceptable for men to cheat, so it is more out in the open .. plus there is a basic assumption by some people that if a man cheats, he does it because he only cares about sex, while, if a woman cheats people are willing to look for underlying reasons and protect their friend because "woman just don't do that" (at least I feel like this is how our society operates ... I could be wrong) and it it unfair for both sexes.
Anyway, I don't want to make a judgment based on the person's sex.


Now, I don't know anything about celebrities, so I can not comment about this lol ... but I can say what I would do given some situations.




So, would I forgive a person who cheated on me?
Forgive: Well, I don't believe in hating other people (just actions and intentions), so of course I would forgive her.


Could we continue on a relationship and could I trust her again?

Well that depends:
Why did she do it? 
Was she vulnerable?
Could I be partly to blame for what happened? (Edit:Maybe I had recently hurt her)
Do I believe she is genuinely sorry?
How long have we been in a relationship for?/How emotionally invested are we in the relationship?
How would I feel if the relationship ended? 
How would I feel if we continued the relationship? (this may take into account more that just the cheating)
Was this the first time?
Would the termination of our relationship affect anyone else? (i.e. our imaginary kids we have in this imaginary relationship ... Why is my imaginary girlfriend/wife cheating on me? I really need a better imagination XD)
Edit: How long has the cheating been going on?

These are all things I would think about before deciding on whether or not I could continue a relationship after cheating ... I think cheating is a big breach of trust, but there are much worst things someone can do to you and I would not say that cheating is necessarily a deal breaker ... ... I would even date someone who has admitted to cheating in the past (before dating me) if I fell in love


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

I'd think he was an immature coward for not breaking up with me first before being with someone else. Seriously, how stupid. I need a man, not a child.

I don't think anyone who has been cheated on should blame themselves if they've given a partner a second chance. It is so much different when you are married or have a child. If you've never been in that position, you might not know how you'd react.

But I really think it's lame if a guy can't break things off before he is with someone else. I'd think, "What else is he going to be a coward about?"

We are together by choice. Each and every day, even if we are married. We are both free to leave at anytime. There is no reason to cheat.


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## WishyWashy (Jul 26, 2012)

Christie42476 said:


> That would suggest you know he is (or might be) cheating, and I'm referring to situations where you're ignorant of it and learn the hard way (in response to the comment that you'd rather he never tell you he's cheating because ignorance is bliss). Plus, if you give permission, it's an open relationship, not infidelity, so it's not the same situation. An open relationship wouldn't work for me, but at least then both partners are in agreement and there's no betrayal of trust. It's the violation of trust that's the critical issue.


No it wouldn't be a 'open' relationship because he wouldn't tell me so i wouldn't get hurt.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> It is late, so I hope you don't mind if I skip the other comments .. but I always like replying to the questions of a friend ^__^
> 
> 
> First off, I want to say who cares whether it was the man or the woman that cheated. Both sexes and all genders can cheat. I think it maybe more socially acceptable for men to cheat, so it is more out in the open .. plus there is a basic assumption by some people that if a man cheats, he does it because he only cares about sex, while, if a woman cheats people are willing to look for underlying reasons and protect their friend because "woman just don't do that" (at least I feel like this is how our society operates ... I could be wrong) and it it unfair for both sexes.
> ...


Mr. Meepers always the reasonable one xD 

Being able to stay in love with someone who cheated is pretty strong-willed on your part.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

WishyWashy said:


> I don't really care if you agree or not, i am me i'm not you so why should i care?


I didnt say you should care. Did I? Simply saying "Thank you for being honest"_ could_ have implied that I would do the same so I was offering a clarification early on. But you obviously missed that.

I just wanted to say I appreciated your honesty.


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## Noirell (Jul 30, 2012)

I would forgive but end the relationship


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## WishyWashy (Jul 26, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I didnt say you should care. Did I? Simply saying "Thank you for being honest"_ could_ have implied that I would do the same so I was offering a clarification early on. But you obviously missed that.
> 
> I just wanted to say I appreciated your honesty.


OK.


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## Angelus (Apr 9, 2012)

@Master Mind


Chipps said:


> Whenever I hear someone say "I'm only human. I'm not perfect", I want to smack them in the face. The sheer volume of things that get catalogued under this excuse is ridiculous. Like you said, it doesn't take being superhuman to not cheat on your partner. Any person with an ounce of integrity and grain of self respect would be able to avoid doing so. So when people use this excuse, it makes me lose respect for them. Its a fucking cop out. If you're going to cheat, at least take responsibility for it. At least admit that it was a shitty thing to do. Trying to make it "human" is pathetic.



I agree! I watched a few videos about this whole Kristen's cheating thing. The comments were full of stuff like _"Give her a break! She's only 22! People do stupid things when they're young!" 

_Those comments make me so FURIOUS. I'm younger than 22 and I'm in a pretty lenghty relationship for my age, just like she was...Yet I would NEVER cheat. And sure, things don't always go as planned, but I simply know that I don't have it in me to cheat! I couldn't! I would get no pleasure from it. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I'm a selfish idiot, nor is it some lame excuse to cheat! >___<


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Crono91 said:


> Mr. Meepers always the reasonable one xD
> 
> Being able to stay in love with someone who cheated is pretty strong-willed on your part.


Well people have done it before XD

People cheat for all kinds of reasons, and it is not always about sex. And it is not always planned either, it can happen in the moment. ... Many people cheat because they are selfish, but some people are just hurting. 

For example, let's I have a wife and something tragic happened where she needed emotional support and I was not providing it for her. She might become vulnerable and someone might be able to take advantage of that. And then she might do something that she quickly regrets. And then she comes to me and tells me honestly.
Although I would be upset with her, I would think that I would be more upset with the other guy for taking advantage of someone's emotions and I would be upset at myself for not being a good husband.

I also like to think I'm a pretty forgiving person and I realize that people can change and that, sometimes, they should get a second chance


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> For example, let's I have a wife and something tragic happened where she needed emotional support and I was not providing it for her.


Well how dare you. 

Haha, yeah I fully understand. I guess it's just one of those things where you need to be in the situation before making a blanket-statement.


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## thor odinson (May 21, 2011)

Whether it's a half a second kiss on the lips or a full blown sexual affair that lasted for 6 months, the relationship is terminal

For this specific flaw, there are no degrees of honesty, there is no forgiveness , no "everybody deserves a second chance"

As @Sovereign mentioned, there is no need to get hung upon it, but in my view, fulfilling this doesn't require restoration nor even forgiveness

You just end, and move on


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

Oh the relationship would end, that's for sure.


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## Shazzette (May 26, 2012)

I might forgive and forget, but I doubt that I would stay in the relationship.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

I'd have to factor in whether the cheating seemed to be a one off accident, and whether I could do better than my current partner or not. For example, Kristen Stewart probably won't go out with that director again as she seems pretty embarrassed, so that might get a pass. On the other hand, mr pattinson can do better than some pouty faced girl, so this would probably be a good reason to go afield. If I was going out with kristen stewart I would definitely let it go though, because I'm nowhere near her league.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

bellisaurius said:


> If I was going out with kristen stewart I would definitely let it go though, because I'm nowhere near her league.


You would let someone cheat on you just because you found them physically attractive? Do you have really low self-esteem, or are you just really shallow?


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## EbonyTigger (Apr 13, 2012)

bellisaurius said:


> I'd have to factor in whether the cheating seemed to be a one off accident, .


How can cheating be an accident?  "Oops I just had an accident and cheated on my partner"


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

skycloud86 said:


> You would let someone cheat on you just because you found them physically attractive? Do you have really low self-esteem, or are you just really shallow?


No, just brutally pragmatic. Plus, it's always struck me that a preening moral pride, jealousy, and desire for a perfect mate are shallow qualities as well.

There's a point at which it wouldn't be worth it even with say kate winslet, but one makes all kinds of sacrifices in a relationship; especially where there's a power/desire imbalance of some sort. What's someone getting sex in the side on the big picture? They're still coming home to you in the end.


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

midnightstar said:


> How can cheating be an accident?  "Oops I just had an accident and cheated on my partner"


A possible example: At a professional association meeting, you're entertaining some clients, and accidentally get drunk (the bartender made stiff drinks, say). You end up really hitting it off with this person, your lusty side kicks in, and you end up realizing what had happened after. This was unintentional, and involved two unlikely events (drinks that were too strong, and someone you had chemistry with).

Not likely, granted, but I don't get into relationships with anyone I'd probably not give the benefit of the doubt to.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

bellisaurius said:


> No, just brutally pragmatic. Plus, it's always struck me that a preening moral pride, jealousy, and desire for a perfect mate are shallow qualities as well.


You can justify it to yourself as much as you want, but the truth is, you would gladly let someone cheat on you because you don't have the backbone to end the relationship.



> There's a point at which it wouldn't be worth it even with say kate winslet


Do you actually know anything about these people as human beings, or are you basing this solely on their appearance? You're coming across as very shallow and misogynistic.



> What's someone getting sex in the side on the big picture? They're still coming home to you in the end.


I don't know, the risk of STDs and the lack of trust maybe?


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## Kainita (Aug 31, 2011)

I wouldn't care that much. I would forgive them and then move on. This actually happened with my first boyfriend, I think he was most shocked that I didn't care and I broke up with him. Haha good times.


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## L (Aug 12, 2011)

midnightstar said:


> How can cheating be an accident?  "Oops I just had an accident and cheated on my partner"


Oh golly gosh I just hate it when that happens....

:dry:


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## bellisaurius (Jan 18, 2012)

skycloud86 said:


> You're coming across as very shallow


I would hope it doesn't get too lonely for you out there in the deep. 

I am an unashamed pursuer of beauty in life. This is not a shallow thing. I see the sunrise, I see the works of titian and caravaggio, and I do not stand unmoved. I also appreciate beauty in its appearance of the plain, the dun of my lover's breasts, and her feet as she treads the ground. To not acknowledge beauty that her beauty is short of others, or to overstate my own is the height of folly in some post modern relativism. 

But you might say, "What of their inner personas?" What of it? Mind and body are not separate. Pursuing a personality is just as shallow as pursuing beauty. Our minds are work of a myriad of biological connections, and we as human beings adapt to each other, especially when we feel attraction and chemistry, which isn't just 'two good or bad people get together.'. 

Some people don't take the time to appreciate the introvert, the cantankerous, and the down right icy: I do. I appreciate all personalities as they are like keys, each unlocking a different part of what we are. For example, your self righteousness is useful as it acts like a lymphocyte attacking societal diseases as they arise, and my personality is of the type that asks 'why?' because the examination benefits people. Both are awkward and offputting on their own, but together, they make for a better culture.


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## SarraR (Aug 3, 2012)

i LOVE your pic, intjellectual. i personally, do, but i seek revenge later. passive aggressive behavior....


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## SarraR (Aug 3, 2012)

i try not to be so passive aggressive but i feel i must give karma a push sometimes!


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

So, I've posted in this thread but not directly on the question at hand.

I think cheating needs to be better defined than it is by simply saying a cheater. 

I can tell you from experience that I would not forgive a cheater who set out to cheat. Who had the time to think it through and still chose to make the choice of giving themselves up to someone else.

I would not forgive a cheater who lied, repeatedly, to cover their own asses, and did so not because of guilt but to carry on with cheating...though, I don't think either purpose would change my ability to forgive.

I tried, for my son, to forgive this situation. I lied to myself in convincing myself that it was even possible. Betrayal of trust of this magnitude will never allow me to fully trust again. Just how it is.

If a SO found themselves pursued by someone, especially if under the influence of alcohol, and didn't immediately put a stop to advances but, stopped before they went through with it completely and was honest with me about the situation, I may be able to forgive.

This would only be if I didn't have to question it, or, if I questioned and they immediately broke down and spilled everything. For this, I know being honest is incredibly difficult. While betrayal is still at play, the fact that they did not lie to me, when many would, would offer some redemption and allow me to retain an element of trust that would otherwise be severed. 

The biggest part of it is the trust. If you can't trust the person, your relationship will never fully recover. Not fair to yourself to live with the constant fear and discomfort this would cause. 

Trying this changed me. It changed who I was and I even let my own values slip some. Whilei never technically cheated, I did something I would not have ever done had this not been done to me so many times by this ***** (many were suspicions after knowing of the first incident, which there will be a lot of if you do"forgive". My suspicions were, however, confirmed by her circle of friends).


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

Yardiff Bey said:


> Disgusting as this sounds, a lot of married women hit on me. Or try to date me. Or do date me, until I find out. Either it is prevalent, or I radiate some kind of magnetic vibe which attracts them.
> 
> One of my friends said words to the effect of: Something about you attracts the lack of committment in them. How fucked up is that. v_v


That's probably true. You might have qualities that they don't see in their spouse. I've also realised that when women sometimes find someone that seems better than the person they're with, they can develop feelings for that person. Like my one friend wasn't happy with her own boyfriend, but she had been spending time with an ex of hers. She began to compare them and make her ex seem like a better choice for her, and she had essentially been seeing him behind her boyfriend's back for a few months. I felt sorry for the poor guy when she dumped him for the other guy. And one of my friends lost his girlfriend because she had been developing feelings for someone else and she essentially started a new relationship before ending it with him.


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## Alysaria (Jul 7, 2009)

INTJellectual said:


> This news has been on the website. I've watched all movies of Twilight and I would watch the last installment. But this scandal has left me questioning the actress' morality. I'm not a fan of her but after reading the article I got turned off by her infidelity. Usually, guys cheat, but now? Girls are leveling if not surpassing the cheating and betrayal they do to their SO. If you're a guy with a SO who cheats, would you forgive her? Are you willing to take her back? If my SO cheats on me, I would never take him back. We're better off as friends if we got kids. If I was single, I would forgive but we will never be friends ever! Because if your partner cheats, it means there is something wrong in your relationship, he/she doesn't love you anymore, he/she is not happy with you anymore. So it would be fair to set each other free. To unload the guilt of the cheater, and to help the aggrieved one to move on.



Temptation happens. Being in a relationship doesn't make attraction to other people just end. Putting yourself in a position where something could happen is the problem. 

Regardless of whether there is a fundamental flaw in the relationship, clearly a cheater doesn't respect their SO enough to either resolve the problem or end things before hooking up with someone else. Without respect, you don't have much of a relationship... Forgiveness is one thing, but without respect from one end or trust from the other, is it worth salvaging?


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## ThatName (Nov 9, 2011)

to the people ganging up on me, sorry, i just don't care. it pisses me off when i feel bullied. but oh well, life goes on. so get over it.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

ThatName said:


> to the people ganging up on me, sorry, i just don't care. it pisses me off when i feel bullied. but oh well, life goes on. so get over it.


I'm sorry you felt ganged up upon. For myself, I know it can be hard when there are a lot of people disagreeing with me all at once and they sound upset with me. So I'm sorry for that. And I was apart of that, so I am sorry.


But, I also hope that you understand their point of view too. Saying all men will cheat in their lives is hurtful to men who don't cheat. Even if you don't believe they exist, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Now, I'm no saint, and I have made plenty of mistakes in my life, but those mistakes are my own. Don't blame a group of people for what I have done, or for what someone else has done. We are all individuals, and, as individuals, we should be blamed for our actions, not our biology.

I also think a lot of posters just want to stop these ideas about the sexes being different in a non-biological way. Judging as entire sex can hurt everyone, even the other sex, and can get in the way of societal equality. Your beliefs can also hurt the feelings of the people you are communicating with, in this case, men. ... It also hurts that stereotyping either sex, when it comes to dating, still seems socially acceptable.


I doubt I will be able to change your mind on this issue, as we probably have different fundamental assumptions of human nature. My fundamental assumption is that sex or gender does not influence behavior (how society treats a sex can, but the sex itself is irrelevant) and I also belief we have an ethical duty to treat all people equally. Like I said, I know I may not be able to change your mind, but I do want you to at least understand why all the posters got upset.


Oh, and, in case I sound upset, I'm not upset or mad ^__^ (it would take a lot more than that to upset me lol) ... so I'm sorry you were and were aware of/felt ganged up on *hugs*, but I also hope you try to understand our point of view and maybe, maybe, even think about. Okay ^__^ *Hugs* ^__^


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

ThatName said:


> to the people ganging up on me, sorry, i just don't care. it pisses me off when i feel bullied. but oh well, life goes on. so get over it.



Okay, not one person here bullied you. So, lets not even attempt to imply that someone did. Bullied would mean that everyone attacked you and made you feel bad when you'd done nothing wrong. That hasn't happened yet. However, what did happen is that several people disagreed with a ridiculous claim you made that casts all males in a negative light. Surely if a guy had said "All women are bitches" like it was somehow rooted in fact, everyone would have harped on them as well, no?

So lets recap what _really_ happened:

1.You make baseless claim about men (as a whole).
2. Numerous people disagree. Why? Because it is not rooted in fact, so how could you make such a claim.
3. Instead of admitting that maybe you shouldn't have implied "all men", you held your ground.
4. Everyone continued to disagree.
5. Now, you're mad. And attempting to claim being "bullied". Nice try though. Its called being disagreed with. 

End of story. 

I just wanted to clear that up for anyone that is going to read only this post and then sympathize with you, when in reality you brought such disagreement on yourself.

*Pro tip*: All you had to say was that in _your_ experience men have a tendency to cheat. This is the internet. You have to be specific. Making sweeping statements about an entire gender will only annoy people and cause them to disagree strongly.


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## Twoshoe (Mar 2, 2011)

Hmm, well, if they were cute/hot or still kind of perky like Kirsten Stewart, I'd keep them.

Then again she could have just asked for an open relationship and then she wouldn't have had to cheat on me.


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## Hypaspist (Feb 11, 2012)

No, never. If a woman cheats on me or betrays me in some way, the message will be clear - the direction of the door will be shown and she's more than welcome to leave if she so desires. If some miracle occurs and she's in some way forgiven or finds her way back into my life courtesy of an acquaintance (I've had women try to mend fences before), then she'll be viewed as more of a liability than an asset. There are plenty of other women out there and it's not like there's only one single woman that can satisfy my needs. One leaves, there are plenty of others to take her place.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Twoshoe said:


> Hmm, well, if they were cute/hot or still kind of perky like Kirsten Stewart, I'd keep them.


Then you're naive and gullible, and shouldn't get into a relationship until you're more mature. Think about what you just wrote.



> Then again she could have just asked for an open relationship and then she wouldn't have had to cheat on me.


You don't really get how cheating works, do you?


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## Enkidu (Apr 19, 2010)

Mr. Meepers said:


> But, I also hope that you understand their point of view too. Saying all men will cheat in their lives is hurtful to men who don't cheat. Even if you don't believe they exist, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Now, I'm no saint, and I have made plenty of mistakes in my life, but those mistakes are my own. Don't blame a group of people for what I have done, or for what someone else has done. We are all individuals, and, as individuals, we should be blamed for our actions, not our biology.
> 
> I also think a lot of posters just want to stop these ideas about the sexes being different in a non-biological way. Judging as entire sex can hurt everyone, even the other sex, and can get in the way of societal equality. Your beliefs can also hurt the feelings of the people you are communicating with, in this case, men. ... It also hurts that stereotyping either sex, when it comes to dating, still seems socially acceptable.


Yup, yup. You summed that up nicely. Most cultures dismiss or even encourage philanderous behavior in men. This is common knowledge, despite personal beliefs about the similarities between genders on this thread. "Boys will be boys" precisely because they are raised to exhibit these tendencies, there are fewer repercussions for men in most religions, and thus most cultures common sensically think that males have stronger libidos. In my own experience, I have known (or dated) women with much stronger sex drives than my own or other men I'm friends with. It's an unfounded myth that perpetuates misunderstanding and misogynistic tendencies in men. Neither is it fair that women deserve harsher treatment when they cheat outside of relationships just because this behavior is characteristic of males. Both genders cheat, this is human unfaithfulness - a miscommunication of needs and wants. If you think about the dynamic, more women cheating is actually evidence of the loosening stranglehold of patriarchy. Greater sexual freedom for both genders means women can make their own choices, without the backlash of chauvinism. The fact that it is crossing gender lines is a sign of the times.


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## Twoshoe (Mar 2, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> Then you're naive and gullible, and shouldn't get into a relationship until you're more mature. Think about what you just wrote.


I was being sardonic.



skycloud86 said:


> You don't really get how cheating works, do you?


How does cheating work? Please explain.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Twoshoe said:


> I was being sardonic.


Fair enough.



> How does cheating work? Please explain.


Numerous reasons - the cheat may not feel that their needs are met so much by their partners so decide to go behind their backs and cheat, they might like the idea of being unfaithful and so cheat numerous times on different partners and so on.


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## Helios (May 30, 2012)

ThatName said:


> to the people ganging up on me, sorry, i just don't care. it pisses me off when i feel bullied. but oh well, life goes on. so get over it.


Well some of us just don't share your negative perception of the male species, and some of us actually know that women are just as capable of infidelity. So you can build a bridge and get over it. I'm just tired of seeing women who play the victim card and make all men seem to be these horrible creatures incapable of being in a stable and loving monogamous relationship. It really pisses me off.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

FacelessBeauty said:


> Well some of us just don't share your negative perception of the *male species*, and some of us actually know that women are just as capable of infidelity. So you can build a bridge and get over it. I'm just tired of seeing women who play the victim card and make all men seem to be these horrible creatures incapable of being in a stable and loving monogamous relationship. It really pisses me off.


We are a different species :shocked:  .... I went to an engineering college, so I always used to tell my ex that I never met anyone of her species before XD ... "But Imma human" was always her response ..... Personally, I think nerds are secretly cyborgs bent of ruling the world, but I suppose they are part human *sarcasm*





Also, I agree with with you ^__^ ... But I hope she reads all the comments (otherwise, I would have wasted my time writing mine )
Also, I think some sexism is culturally acceptable and it should not be, but many people are raised this way. ... And then society kind of rewards this belief system ... not to mention that many people seem to be very friendly with the same sex (close friends .... from my perspective at least) and most people are straight ... not to mention that romantic relationships are very emotional ... and we may fail to see the extent of the flaws in our friends and ourselves ... so, some people many have a perception that the "other" sex just keeps hurting them and their friends

The reason I say this is because it is hard to expect other to try to understand us, if we don't try to understand them ^__^

We all CHOOSE to believe what we believe (for different reasons ... evidence, we want it to be true, ...) ... and, once you are an adult, you must take responsibility for what you say and do based on your beliefs ... You are, and should, be free to believe whatever you want to believe, but there are consequences .... And, as you stated, one of those consequences is having people be angry with you


Of course, if too many people tell you off, you may ignore and feel hurt yourself ... we all have feelings .... and it is also unfair that society encourages sexism too .... Our current society, and our society's history, does take part of the blame too ... she deserves most of it though ...... But people are only human

More on the subject of prejudice (my opinion at least):
http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/101017-what-you-cant-understand-4.html#post2546415

(if you agree or disagree with me ... or just want to respond ... it would probably be more fitting to do so in the thread posted above ^__^ *hugs for @_FacelessBeauty_* ^__^ )
Edit: Also, there is a saying that says something like, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" ... ... ... I'm naturally sweet (It is just who I am) ^__^ *hugs* ...... but everything you said was correct ^__^


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## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Twoshoe said:


> Hmm, well, if they were cute/hot or still kind of perky like Kirsten Stewart, I'd keep them.
> 
> Then again she could have just asked for an open relationship and then she wouldn't have had to cheat on me.


She'll probably bounce around between "boyfriends" for years now, not knowing - or thinking about - why. Almost stereotypical bland and characterless actress-type. Perfect typecast for the role of Bella, of course.

Might even end up in someone's soft-harem/booty-call as her looks decline even further. Can almost imagine her being passed amongst the various directors and crew of Hollywood, just so she can feel normal - "like something would fucking happen". /rolleyes

Source: Kristen Stewart Craved Something 'Crazy' To Excite Her 'Boring' Life! - Robert Pattinson - Zimbio



> "You can learn so much from bad things. I feel boring. I feel like, 'Why is everything so easy for me?' I can't wait for something crazy to f–king happen to me. Just life. I want someone to f–k me over! Do you know what I mean?"


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

ThatName said:


> to the people ganging up on me, sorry, i just don't care. it pisses me off when i feel bullied. but oh well, life goes on. so get over it.


While I can appreciate not wanting to feel ganged up on, nobody is bullying you, that I can see. Would you feel the sympathy for all of us men if numerous women on here agreed with what you said...for, we might feel ganged up on by an entire gender.

You posted a very sterotypical/sexist comment regarding men and their "need to cheat". Is it not fair for us men who are so adamantly against cheating to defend ourselves? I, for one, don't believe I even commented on it, until now. Personally, I feel it was an ignorant comment and was made without respect and consideration for the men who truly are against cheating. If i posted a comment that all women belonged in the home doing housework and raising children, I would expect to receive a flood of posts disputing my claim and noting my sexism...so, it was also ignorant for you not to expect the same!

I am against cheating. I have many guy friends who are completely against cheating even after being cheated on by women multiple times. While I think it's almost fair to say that men are more prone to cheating...as, men and women are different (equal but different), passing judgement on people, such as you did, simply because they share a common thread is wrong. The reason I say "almost fair" is because it is my experience that woman who cheat are more prone to cheat secretly while men that are into seeing multiple people will often do so openly. In fairness, it isn't as taboo for men to seek multiple partners as it is women (generally speaking, as a result of societies perception of "Lady-like vs. Masculinity)so I can see why the difference in secretiveness would be in favor of women. I also find it so frustrating that often, even in movies, women who cheat are made out to be "victims" because " their husband was never home and neglected them so". To quote a movie from some time ago, "The Last Boyscout", as Joe Hallenback (Bruce Willis) said to his cheating wife when she says "I was lonely Joe".......they should " Buy a dog"! It's wrong for both genders, no matter what the circumstances, and there are cheaters and faithfuls within each! 

I think that women cheating is much more common, and more even to men, now than it was 30 years ago. With the "empowerment" women gained with being more equal forces in the workforce seemed to come more similarities to the men of the older eras. Men, with the acceptence of showing more of their sensitive side, seem to have become more honest on a whole when it comes to cheating, among other things. I do not disagree with either the "empowerment" women sought after and gained, nor the acceptance of men being more open with their feelings. What did come from it, i believe, was less of a divide between the 2 genders...including the subject of cheating, IMO. These are just theories of mine and I , in no way, would be so bold as to say all women who work full time are likely to cheat or all men who seem to be so sensitive now wouldn't. It would be a very bold, broad and ignorant statement and I, for one, will not do such a thing.

I guess, bottom line is, if you come on a forum filled with people in both genders and make a comment regarding an entire gender, that could be considered offensive to said gender, you should probably expect some backlash. But, at least you aren't sorry for what you said and you don't care so we won't have to worry about you rethinking your sexist post and being overwhelmed with guilt. 

FYI....I'm a man and I am not a cheater!

P.S. This is not as "clean" as I'd like it to be but, I think everyone will understand my point.


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Chipps said:


> Okay, not one person here bullied you. So, lets not even attempt to imply that someone did. Bullied would mean that everyone attacked you and made you feel bad when you'd done nothing wrong. That hasn't happened yet. However, what did happen is that several people disagreed with a ridiculous claim you made that casts all males in a negative light. Surely if a guy had said "All women are bitches" like it was somehow rooted in fact, everyone would have harped on them as well, no?
> 
> So lets recap what _really_ happened:
> 
> ...


I so wish I had caught this before posting my own "bullying post". 2 reasons:

1. You made the same points as I but drove them home much better and in far fewer words (it's an easier read).
2. It would have saved me a lot of typing to just quote you and type "Well said"

But, better late than never!

WELL SAID!


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## SJ1974 (Jul 15, 2009)

Geez. I just wnt to say something about this actress who slept with an older, married guy. Firstof all, I don't watch the twilight films, not a fan of hers...just not interested and I'm not the demographic these movies are aiming for anyway.
So...Why is this girl getting so much flack? She's 22 years old. The married guy should be the one getting all the shit. His wife is beautiful, just gorgeous, but he is a guy an wanted to sleep with a young hot star. 22 is still an impressionable age. Is this actress supposed to stay with her bf for her entire life? At 22? The business she's in is too glamorous for a 22 young RICH girl to be able to come to her senses and stay with her one BF. She should date, get to know some guys, LIVE a little too before staying with this bf as a rule. 22 is the right age for this, not 37.

What bothers me more is that this is what is in the papers, websites. I'm bombarded with it all of the time. I don't even WANT to know about this.

So would I ever forgive a cheater? I have and I paid a price for it. Would I once again forgive a cheater? Probably, but I would more than likely blame myself if my gf had a want or need to be with someone else. Being drunk is not an excuse or a reason. I used to fight these things, but you can't. If they want to be with you, they will be with you and if they want to go sleep with someone else, it's your choice to accept it and stay or simply move on. 




INTJellectual said:


> This news has been on the website. I've watched all movies of Twilight and I would watch the last installment. But this scandal has left me questioning the actress' morality. I'm not a fan of her but after reading the article I got turned off by her infidelity. Usually, guys cheat, but now? Girls are leveling if not surpassing the cheating and betrayal they do to their SO. If you're a guy with a SO who cheats, would you forgive her? Are you willing to take her back? If my SO cheats on me, I would never take him back. We're better off as friends if we got kids. If I was single, I would forgive but we will never be friends ever! Because if your partner cheats, it means there is something wrong in your relationship, he/she doesn't love you anymore, he/she is not happy with you anymore. So it would be fair to set each other free. To unload the guilt of the cheater, and to help the aggrieved one to move on.


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## Christie42476 (May 25, 2012)

@SJ1974: I'm sorry you had to go through that. As for your point about her age, regardless of her youth, that age is still old enough to know that violating someone's trust is wrong. If someone feels they're too young to be in a committed, monogamous relationship and needs to get out there and date, that's completely fair. If someone feels that they're just not cut out for that kind of relationship, that is also fair. To each their own. 

_But_ they need to be upfront about that with whomever they're dating so their partners can make the choice you mentioned as to whether to accept that or move on -- because they have an equal right to decide what kind of relationship is right for them. In this particular instance (and I agree about not wanting to see it plastered everywhere -- my previous responses to this thread were about the subject in general, not this specific scandal), if she felt she was too young for the kind of relationship she was in, she had a responsibility to own up to that, in private, to her partner and give him the courtesy of allowing him to make the same decision for himself as to what arrangement would or wouldn't work for him.


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## SJ1974 (Jul 15, 2009)

Fully agree with you. So true. 





Christie42476 said:


> @_SJ1974_: I'm sorry you had to go through that. As for your point about her age, regardless of her youth, that age is still old enough to know that violating someone's trust is wrong. If someone feels they're too young to be in a committed, monogamous relationship and needs to get out there and date, that's completely fair. If someone feels that they're just not cut out for that kind of relationship, that is also fair. To each their own.
> 
> _But_ they need to be upfront about that with whomever they're dating so their partners can make the choice you mentioned as to whether to accept that or move on -- because they have an equal right to decide what kind of relationship is right for them. In this particular instance (and I agree about not wanting to see it plastered everywhere -- my previous responses to this thread were about the subject in general, not this specific scandal), if she felt she was too young for the kind of relationship she was in, she had a responsibility to own up to that, in private, to her partner and give him the courtesy of allowing him to make the same decision for himself as to what arrangement would or wouldn't work for him.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I don't 100% disagree with your point however:
> 
> 
> 
> This ^^ is bullshit. Sorry.* Even if what you say is true, if two people commit the exact same act, they should be dealt with the same.* Implying that men should *maybe* get a second chance is the biggest fucking joke on the planet. The day someone told me to my face that a man should forgiven for an act and a woman shouldn't (for the same fucking act) is the day I'm gonna bitch slap the fuck out of someone. Nothing is more disgusting than a hypocrite.


On the basis of egalitarianism, I would like to agree with you. However, egalitarianism is not what usually plays out in the world. My perception is that men tend to be forgiven much more often than women for cheating. I think Yardiff Bey posted up a video about a women who was caught cheating. The video supports my claim that the relationship was dead long before the cheating occurred. No need to forgive her.

From my understanding of your argument, your premise is that men and women should be treated the same for the same crime. You're opening a huge can of worms with a statement like that. Basically, you are saying to disregard reasons and circumstance over an action. Cheating is cheating and murder is murder. There is no self-defense, there was no accident, just a dead body and life behind bars no matter what.

My premise is that there are different reasons why men and women cheat and therefore different odds of being forgiven vs not exist. Men just have (should have) better odds of being forgiven for cheating than women. Again I speak in relative, not absolute terms.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> As a "man" I can ignore my emotions during sex, but I will still have emotions ... Although that has nothing to do with being a man. The only woman I had sex with, did not want a relationship with me and I did want to have a relationship with her ... she seemed more emotionally cut off than I was ... Now, my experience is limited, but, even when it comes to physical relations, men and women seem just at emotional and, as I said in another comment, I think we should assume that men and women are just equal ... This is more than just a fact argument, but a values argument too ... If statistics say men and women are different in __________, *Do we choose to believe that men and women are inherently different OR do we choose to believe that as a society, we have forced this divide.* Neuroscience, to my knowledge, says that the brain is pretty malleable and statistics says that individual differences are far greater than sex differences (which are not always statistically significant). So I argue that we should go with the value judgement that men and women are inherently equal. Plus, the individual difference is more scattered anyway, so there is no need to make sweeping arguments like that. ... Cheating is not different for men or for woman, and should be judged the same, regardless of sex.


You make a good argument. Do you have any articles on these statistics? I'm sure they would make a fascinating read.

Here's my counter-argument:
*Do we choose to believe that men and women are inherently different?
*If yes, then my argument would stand valid.

*Or do we choose to believe that as a society, we have forced this divide.*
If yes, then my argument is still valid because society has forced a different way of thinking a reasoning behind the genders and why they would cheat. 

Why Men Cheat
Top 10: Reasons Why Men Cheat - AskMen

Why women cheat
Confessions: 7 reasons why women cheat

The biggest difference in why men and women cheat that summarizes these two lists: Men wanted more; women weren't getting enough.


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Solrac026 said:


> On the basis of egalitarianism, I would like to agree with you. However, egalitarianism is not what usually plays out in the world. My perception is that men tend to be forgiven much more often than women for cheating. I think Yardiff Bey posted up a video about a women who was caught cheating. The video supports my claim that the relationship was dead long before the cheating occurred. No need to forgive her.
> 
> From my understanding of your argument, your premise is that men and women should be treated the same for the same crime. You're opening a huge can of worms with a statement like that. Basically, you are saying to disregard reasons and circumstance over an action. Cheating is cheating and murder is murder. There is no self-defense, there was no accident, just a dead body and life behind bars no matter what.
> 
> My premise is that there are different reasons why men and women cheat and therefore different odds of being forgiven vs not exist. Men just have (should have) better odds of being forgiven for cheating than women. Again I speak in relative, not absolute terms.


Hmmm..I see it differently. I don't believe men are more easily forgiven...and when they are, it is because "that's what men do...they can't help themselves" type BS..which is insulting to our gender. 

It is often stated that a cheating husband/bf is a "NO Good DOG" regardless of the circumstances. If he was lonely because she worked long hours, more often than not, it would most likely be said that he was a horrible person to act in such a way while she was off working to make ends meet.

Women, in the same situation, are often given a pass because they are more emotional and need that connection. I think of the movie "Liar, Liar", in which he is defending a cheating wife. His defense is something to the effect of "Your husband neglected you, went away for days on business trips and ignored you. You are the victim as he Drove You into the arms of another man!"

While this is a comedy, and a Hollywood take on life, it is an exaggeration of a common thought process in society, and it is not completely untrue. 

I also question why you say "Men just have *(should have)* better odds of being forgiven for cheating than women..". Why is it that men "should have" better odds of being forgiven?

I really don't think there is any excusable reason for cheating. It is not the same as Cold blooded murder vs. Self defense. Defending yourself to protect your own life and it resulting in death is unfortunate but, it was them or you. Unless your argument is that cheating was necessary for one to live, i don't see the relation between the 2. One is a clear choice. "Do i take my clothes off or...keep them on and go home to my significant other?". The other is " oh fuck...theyre gonna kill me...WHACK...oops". Obviously this is not every self defense case out there...but, it is in most case, when truly self defense, a reaction lead by instinct as opposed to attraction leading to making a choice to betray. And the accidental killing is also different..." We were horsing around and he fell off the edge" is far more believable than " My clothes fell off, I tripped and landed D**k first in her accidentally exposed v*****a" ...ummm... oops?

Even if you are right, it isn't for the right reasons. If men, in fact, are more easily forgiven it's because of the ignorant stance that "Men have a harder time keeping their **** in their pants" meaning we are still judged negatively as a whole group because of it..while women are more often judged individually and based on the specific circumstances.

All just my opinions. :wink:


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

To cheat oneself out of love is the most terrible deception; it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation, either in time or in eternity..Soren Kierkegaard 


The problem with cheating is not the act itself, is the broken of trust and the lies that goes with it. A relationship is like a link that is born of the bonding, experiences and memories that two people construct together. To build trust can take months and years but it can be broken in the blink of an eye. Trust is the foundation of all relationships, without it the relationship can't survive. Even when you forget and decided to give the relationship another go...it changes...it will never be the same. It is like having an elephant in the room, that everyone knows is there but no one wants to talk about it. 

Cheating also cause funny things to the mind of the people: the one that was cheated on, start feeling devaluated and not good enough. Could think that there was something wrong with him/her. The pain could affect other future relationships that they might have. They will be wary of opening themselves to other relationships because someone betrayed them in the past. Sometimes years can pass before the wounds are healed and the person is open to have another relationship.

The one who cheats, often feel guilty. This guilty can turn to paranoia....the cheater usually projects their own infidelity as jealousy in his/her partner. Usually try to rationalize his/her behavior by saying that it was their partner fault,stress,work,etc. Most of them also experience emotional pain driven by the guilt.

I will forgive the cheater in a heart-beat. I cannot carry a grudge but the nature of the relationship will change. We could stay as acquaintances and with time maybe as friends but that woman will immediately lose the privileges that goes with been my SO and that is punishment enough. When someone cheats it also corrupts and eat them on the inside. They know that what they did was wrong. Every time they see you, they will remember what they did to you. The cheater will usually regret it, because they know that something precious was lost. No matter where they go, that moment will be part of them. I feel compassion for both sides of the coin: the cheater and the one that was cheat on. Nothing good really comes out of cheating;just pain, pain and more pain.

People have different physical/emotional/intellectual needs. Some people are fine with having all their needs fulfill with a partner, others might need more. Everyone have different expectations of what they want out of the relationship. Communication is there for that. If you feel that something is missing share it, before you do something that you may regret for your entire life. This person loves you, don't hurt him/her. 

I am probably one of the few people that have all their needs fulfill with one partner that at the same time will give my SO the freedom to pursue another relationships as long as she is careful and honest about it. Like I said in the beginning...is not the act itself but the broken of trust, the lies and the repercussion it causes in your life.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

Solrac026 said:


> You make a good argument. Do you have any articles on these statistics? I'm sure they would make a fascinating read.
> 
> Here's my counter-argument:
> *Do we choose to believe that men and women are inherently different?
> ...



I'm not really sure you made much of an argument ... and it has been a while but the statistics had to do with intelligence and emotional intelligence ... I'm sorry, I don't have them though

As for the ask men article, well I always found that sight to be sexist and a little disturbing, so I try not to use it as a source (usually it acts as if all women are X and all men want is sex).

Anyway, the articles only list a few reasons why people cheat. The "8 reasons reasons why men cheat" and the "7 reasons why women cheat" articles did not seem to be that different, but it was just a bunch of "case studies"

And I said IF there is a difference (the if is important) 



> *Or do we choose to believe that as a society, we have forced this divide.*
> If yes, then my arguement is still valid because society has forced a different way of thinking a reasoning behind the genders and why they would cheat.


So, you are suggesting that we continue to keep the divide instead of treating people as equals and letting time fix the mistake



> *Do we choose to believe that men and women are inherently different?*
> If yes, then my arguement would stand valid.


Not necessarily

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/29/health/29book.html

If we treat people equally and hold them to the same standards ... maybe, as people age, maybe people will become more alike. ... I can't say for certain, but maybe


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> I'm not really sure you made much of an argument ... and it has been a while but the statistics had to do with intelligence and emotional intelligence ... I'm sorry, I don't have them though
> 
> As for the ask men article, well I always found that sight to be sexist and a little disturbing, so I try not to use it as a source (usually it acts as if all women are X and all men want is sex).
> 
> ...


Would we want to become more alike? We can be different while still being held to the same basic standards. 

I like the thought of being equal overall while embracing our differences. I think the latter is what's often missed.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

JaySH said:


> Would we want to become more alike? We can be different while still being held to the same basic standards.
> 
> I like the thought of being equal overall while embracing our differences. I think the latter is what's often missed.


But, I think that would still promote sexism though ... Individual differences, to my knowledge, is far greater that any sex, or at least our perception of sex, differences 
Although, I am physically a man, I would say that I have some "masculine" traits and some "feminine" traits, probably more feminine traits though. ... Should people assume that because I have a penis, I act like _____ ... I am saying that why would we want the differences to be sex differences, where we can make judgement based on a sex ... there is a lot of variability in the individual ... I would think that if we lost statistical differences between the sexes, those differences would still exist between the individuals ... Otherwise, we might keep forgetting about those statistical outliers and they will have to feel a divided between who they are and what people say they should be. I don't really like ascribing a gender to myself, but I don't want to be told I'm any less of a man, because I act and think like there "stereotypical woman".


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> But, I think that would still promote sexism though ... Individual differences, to my knowledge, is far greater that any sex, or at least our perception of sex, differences
> Although, I am physically a man, I would say that I have some "masculine" traits and some "feminine" traits, probably more feminine traits though. ... Should people assume that because I have a penis, I act like _____ ... I am saying that why would we want the differences to be sex differences, where we can make judgment based on a sex ... there is a lot of variability in the individual ... I would think that if we lost statistical differences between the sexes, those differences would still exist between the individuals ... Otherwise, we might keep forgetting about those statistical outliers and they will have to feel a divided between who they are and what people say they should be. I don't really like ascribing a gender to myself, but I don't want to be told I'm any less of a man, because I act and think like there "stereotypical woman".


Hmm...while I can see your point, we view sexism differently. Acknowledging that men commonly do "A" and woman commonly do "B", while excepting it as simply an observation, is not sexist in my eyes. It is an observation based on a group as a whole. As long as it is recognized that these differences are not defining, but merely common themes, I believe it is healthy. 

I can see your point, though. I remember when my son was a baby having people so shocked at how good I was at doing things like changing a diaper, packing a diaper bag, feeding him, burping, getting him to sleep, etc. because I was a man. It was often women making such observations. While it wasn't done offensively, and I took no offense, I wondered if I acted surprised at them being able to fix a car or use a hammer would go over well with them. the simple fact is though, it does surprise me a little when I see such things. It isn't because I don't believe they have the ability but more because it isn't common for them to want the ability..or to use it.

I have been frustrated in relationships when everything to do with keeping up a house from a cleanliness standpoint, was to be equal but, when it came to yard-work, fixing things, killing spiders, etc, that was the man's job. 

True, I was better at those things..also true they were better (well, not all of them), at keeping up with cleaning (not saying it's their place and not mine...just that I had to work harder at it because it doesn't come as naturally for me as the other things mentioned). 

To me equal is treating each other with a shared respect but acknowledging strengths and weaknesses and living together accordingly. This can definitely change with individuals though. I know many many men who can't turn a wrench to save their life and they are often with women who are very handy. It just isn't as common. 

And I, too, have some "feminine" qualities...though I think my masculine ones reign supreme. I believe growing up in a house with mainly females actually lead to this..."balance". I wouldn't change it for anything. 

So..guess I agree and don't...each to a degree. but, I certainly respect your opinion. 

Sorry for being so off topic...damn us ENFPs! :wink:


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

JaySH said:


> Hmm...while I can see your point, we view sexism differently. Acknowledging that men commonly do "A" and woman commonly do "B", while excepting it as simply an observation, is not sexist in my eyes. It is an observation based on a group as a whole. As long as it is recognized that these differences are not defining, but merely common themes, I believe it is healthy.
> 
> I can see your point, though. I remember when my son was a baby having people so shocked at how good I was at doing things like changing a diaper, packing a diaper bag, feeding him, burping, getting him to sleep, etc. because I was a man. It was often women making such observations. While it wasn't done offensively, and I took no offense, I wondered if I acted surprised at them being able to fix a car or use a hammer would go over well with them. the simple fact is though, it does surprise me a little when I see such things. It isn't because I don't believe they have the ability but more because it isn't common for them to want the ability..or to use it.
> 
> ...


Well, now that you explained it, I can definitely respect and agree with a lot of what you are saying too ^__^

I would say that what I would like to see is that people are diverse and the idealization of what is "masculine" is considered different, but equal to the idealization of what is "feminine", but no one is judged for where they are on the spectrum between masculine and feminine. And, in personal relationships, responsibilities are divided according to the individuals (for instance I'm physically stronger than a large majority of my friends, so, more than likely I would have to take care of a lot of the tasks that require heavy lifting and transporting) .... I think if those conditions are met, I would be okay with either scenario ... FYI when I was talking about differences between the sexes, I was ignoring physical differences.


Also, don't worry .. I understand ... I'm an INFP ^__^
But I feel more sorry for the INTJellectual that started this thread  (concerning our tangent)



Edit: What I said is subtly different ... When I say masculine and feminine, I mean a set of qualities that we have traditionally placed with being male or female, but may not have any relation to what is "typically male" or "typically female" in terms of statistics ... thus this post can be consistent with what you said and consistent with what I said ... basically an abstraction keeping our mutual ideals
Another Edit: I should probably add that not only are people not judged but they are aware that people can be anywhere on this masculine-feminine spectrum ... and men and women as a sex are treated equally


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Mr. Meepers said:


> Well, now that you explained it, I can definitely respect and agree with a lot of what you are saying too ^__^
> 
> *I would say that what I would like to see is that people are diverse and the idealization of what is "masculine" is considered different, but equal to the idealization of what is "feminine", but no one is judged for where they are on the spectrum between masculine and feminine. And, in personal relationships, responsibilities are divided according to the individuals (for instance I'm physically stronger than a large majority of my friends, so, more than likely I would have to take care of a lot of the tasks that require heavy lifting and transporting)* .... I think if those conditions are met, I would be okay with either scenario ... FYI when I was talking about differences between the sexes, I was ignoring physical differences.
> 
> ...


You just summed up exactly what I had been trying to say all along. 

And...Cheaters suck and I wouldn't forgive them! (just to be somewhat on topic)


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## WanderingLucid (Jul 11, 2012)

I could go on forever about this topic but I'll just say if my SO cheated on me, he is knowingly telling me he wants to end the relationship.


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## LiLesah (Jul 30, 2012)

I'd probably forgive... but never forget - & it would end shortly after.


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## INTJellectual (Oct 22, 2011)

Mr. Meepers said:


> But I feel more sorry for the INTJellectual that started this thread  (concerning our tangent)


Don't be sorry. I like it


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

INTJellectual said:


> Don't be sorry. I like it



:happyhew...I was given the impression that varying too far was frowned upon by most. It hasn't completely stopped me, but I do feel bad for going so far off topic. Just isn't a thought in my mind...or it is but there's always sooooo many of them that it does not prevail in the fight to be the most prominent thought. I tried though, with the last post  (kind of) :wink:


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## Aqualung (Nov 21, 2009)

This happened to me once. The day after I found out I called & cancelled our plans for that night & said, "Sorry, something came up" & I never spoke to her again. I let her figure it out & quickly moved on. I forgave her to relieve the burden of my own anger but the trust & respect was gone.


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## FreeSpirit (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, I would. Work through it. Relationships aren't what they're
'supposed' to be all of the time. That doesn't mean they aren't
worth fighting for.


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## Noirell (Jul 30, 2012)

You are a saint. At my age I have no interest and less patience for these kinds of things. That's why I have chosen to remain single.


FreeSpirit said:


> Yes, I would. Work through it. Relationships aren't what they're
> 'supposed' to be all of the time. That doesn't mean they aren't
> worth fighting for.


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

FreeSpirit said:


> Yes, I would. Work through it. Relationships aren't what they're
> 'supposed' to be all of the time. That doesn't mean they aren't
> worth fighting for.


For any degree of cheating?

I might try, again, with forviving if it involved only kissing and touching, one time, and they were open and honest about it. But, if they chose to lie to me about, carry on a relationship with the other person behind my back or go all the way with them even once...I could not forgive. 

They are certainly worth fighting for. They are also worth staying honest, faithful and true for. Once one has proven it isnt worth doing these things, maintaining some level of respect for you, your feelings andyour relationship with them, is there any amount of fighting or effort that can bring back trust, faith and respect in them for the cheated, lied to and betrayed partner?

For me, the answer is no. That's me though.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

android654 said:


> Nah, they definitely are.


Sarcasm?

...........


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Sarcasm?
> 
> ...........


Acceptance of a simple fact.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Saira said:


> This was. I didn't quote the whole post.
> 
> I love a good discussion, but you didn't just comment, you replied as if I offended you. No big deal, I was just curious why would someone react like that if they hadn't been provoked.


Sorry if you got that impression, my posting style can be a bit abrasive.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

android654 said:


> Acceptance of a simple fact.


Really? An accepted fact? Perhaps you would like to show me some sources to back your claim?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Really? An accepted fact? Perhaps you would like to show me some sources to back your claim?


My penis is the only source I need to validate my claim.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

android654 said:


> My penis is the only source I need to validate my claim.


Yet my male genitalia is attached to a person who disagrees. Surely if men were more animalistic than women, we would both agree?


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Yet my male genitalia is attached to a person who disagrees. Surely if men were more animalistic than women, we would both agree?


Ever considered the fact that you're the one that's different?


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

android654 said:


> Ever considered the fact that you're the one that's different?



He is claiming, I think, that your penis is not an object source of "factual" information and that another source, maybe more appropriate in this case ^__^ ... especially given the subject matter


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## SumSamurai (Sep 9, 2010)

I forgave them... And they did it again and again and again and........ 

Never forgive a cheater.. Your forgiveness is an invitation for them to do it again because they know they can walk all over you. Your unconditional love means NOTHING.


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## Sollertis (Aug 2, 2012)

JaySH said:


> I'm not sure if your "flack" comment was in regards to what I said r what you expect to hear from people regarding your views on trust and lying.
> 
> I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with what you wrote...your p.o.v. I was just curious about how you would handle the relationship to begin with...is it open? Is it committed with a get out of jail free card? Or is it full commitment but you're willing to let go? I think you answered. I was by no means judging...there was a time I felt similar to you. I just know better, for me, now. Doesn't mean you'd be the same.
> 
> ...


What I meant about the flack comment is that I doubt many people see eye to eye with my views on honesty. I try to be very honest my self, mainly because I think honesty saves time, but I'm not personally offended if someone lies to me. I can respect that everyone has aspects of themselves that they prefer not to share with others, and, like I stated above "don't like getting needless flack". Generally speaking I think lies have far more to do with the person telling them than the people being lied to. I don't think dishonesty necessitates disrespect, but that's another discussion altogether.

EDIT: If my partner wants an open relationship, they can have one. A relationship maintained because two people are together, not because they both want to be, but because they previously did in the past is unhealthy and stunting. To be quite honest, I don't know if I'd be very comfortable if I was the sole focus of my partner's interest, I'm a very private person and need lots of time alone.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

One time, yes. I would. Anyone can make a mistake.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Emerson said:


> One time, yes. I would. Anyone can make a mistake.


Explain how someone can accidentally cheat, because I think the general consensus on cheating is that it's pretty much done on purpose.


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## CrabbyPaws (Mar 5, 2012)

Forgive? No. Forget? No. Stay together? No. 
Why? No.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> Explain how someone can accidentally cheat, because I think the general consensus on cheating is that it's pretty much done on purpose.


Anyone can make a mistake. If its a 1 night fling I would forgive. Anything else I would not however.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Emerson said:


> Anyone can make a mistake. If its a 1 night fling I would forgive. Anything else I would not however.


That doesn't answer my question. How does one person "accidentally" cheat? As for one night flings, what if they keep having them? Will you keep forgiving them, or it one fling and the relationship ends?


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> That doesn't answer my question. How does one person "accidentally" cheat? As for one night flings, what if they keep having them? Will you keep forgiving them, or it one fling and the relationship ends?



No the first one I would forgive, I don't know what I'd do beyond that, whenever I've found out multiple cheatings the relationship has been over.

I don't think people can accidentally cheat, but that doesn't change my position.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Emerson said:


> No the first one I would forgive, I don't know what I'd do beyond that, whenever I've found out multiple cheatings the relationship has been over.
> 
> I don't think people can accidentally cheat, but that doesn't change my position.


If you don't think people can accidentally cheat, then you don't think they can make a mistake by cheating, so it does change your position.


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## Emerson (Mar 13, 2011)

skycloud86 said:


> If you don't think people can accidentally cheat, then you don't think they can make a mistake by cheating, so it does change your position.


I'll take my contradictory thinking and keep it. It saddens me. But I must, for whatever inescapeable reason I find myself in this position.


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## Agile (Sep 27, 2010)

Yes - I don't think cheating is a one way street. If I was cheated on, I should share part of that responsibility.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Agile said:


> Yes - I don't think cheating is a one way street. If I was cheated on, I should share part of that responsibility.


Why? It's your partner who cheated, it's your partner who could have communicated with you that they weren't happy with the relationship and so on.


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