# ISTJ or ISTP?



## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

I'm having trouble figuring out if I use Si-Te or Se-Ti. If you think I'm something other than ISTJ or ISTP, feel free to tell me that.
I'm using Turi's questionnaire, by the way. I skipped a few but if you think I really should answer them, just let me know. Also, I'll try to answer any followup questions.

*Section 1.*


* *






> Pick any picture you like - tell us about it. Below are two websites to help find one - feel free to choose anything you want, though.
> Random Image Prompts
> https://www.flickr.com/explore/interesting/7days/


Towering over a faraway array of monotonous trees, two bulbous, royal blue figures emerge from the verdant ground, ready for humans to embark on a journey beneath them. The brand new hot air balloons patiently wait for customers to board their carts, ignoring their fallen red companion lying on the grass beside them that is gawked at by the people passing by.

Honestly, I didn’t feel like doing any of the other writing exercises.




*Section 2.*


* *






> Describe your verbal communication skills, your written communication skills, and your body language.
> Feel free to go in-depth. If possible, detail your natural communication and body language preferences in various circumstances - with friends, with strangers, at work, in one-on-one situations, in group situations, personal, impersonal, that kind of thing. If anything irritates you about how others communicate, talk about that too.
> The more information, the better.


My verbal communication skills aren’t great. I stutter quite a bit, and I find it difficult to form my thoughts into sentences out loud. I switch between either using too much eye contact or barely any at all. I barely talk in group situations because I find it hard to jump in even if I have something to say. However, I can easily keep up unintrusive small talk on one-on-one situations, especially with strangers. I get irritated by personal questions and people getting too close to me, I prefer to keep my distance.
My written communication skills are decent, maybe even good. Sometimes I have the same problem of not being able to turn my thoughts into words on paper/computer, but this happens much less frequently and I can express myself pretty well through pen or keyboard. I find it easy to jump into online group chats even if I don’t know the people very well, and struggle more with one-on-one situations.



> How do you prefer to make decisions, solve problems and/or puzzles?
> Run us through your entire process - use specific examples, if possible - some ideas for your answer -
> what questions do you ask yourself, if any? What goes through your mind? What do you take into account? What could alter your decisions? Are you comfortable with making a decision and settling on it? Do you like being able to change your decisions, after you've made them?


When it comes to small decisions, like what to eat, what album I should listen to next, and shit like that, I usually just go with a gut feeling that I can’t really explain that makes me crave one thing over another. This is my strategy (or lack of it) when I solve puzzles.

I can be rather analytical but indecisive when it comes to decisions that are bigger and wait for the last moment to make my choice. I like thinking about all the possible options, narrow it down to a smaller list using some sort of criteria, then imagine what would happen if I chose any of those options. For example, when I had to pick a university to attend. I imagined myself at selective schools such as Harvard or whatever but then narrowed it down because that was way out of the picture. Then, I used the criteria of not wanting to attend a school more than 1 hour away from where I currently live. I looked at all the schools within this radius, read about them, and imagined myself in all of them.



> Detail some things that piss you off - stress triggers - feel free to explain the reasons why these things irritate you - I don't want to hear about mild irritations - I want to hear about things that simply make your blood boil, or make you want to take action to alter the situation - things that make you want to leave an environment, things that make you dislike someone, things that truly get to you as a person and grate on every fiber of your being.


I was really angry and stressed as a middle/high-schooler because of some of the assholes at my school. Simply, people being complete jerks and bullies irritate the fuck out of me, and it seemed like my school was full of them. It made me have a disdain for teenagers and really got to me, giving me violent thoughts on a daily basis. I eventually had to leave that environment.

These days I’m not as pissed as I was as a teenager but I feel like little inconsiderate things have been affecting me way more than they should. Stupid drivers and people not covering their mouths when they cough grate on every fiber of my being. I guess my main stress triggers are people treating me like I’m shit or invisible.




> What is one specific trait that you value in others, yet simply do not possess yourself - though, if you were to work on it, it would really balance out your personality?


I wish I were naturally good at social situations. It seems like some people are just awesome at speaking in front of an audience, or flirting with someone they like, and I’d love to be one of them.



> What are the differences between how others see you, and how you see yourself?
> Feel free to elaborate and explain the reasoning.


I tend to think of myself as an angry, angsty person, but I don’t show that side of me to most people so I’m not perceived that way. People usually think I’m shy, and I don’t disagree with this assessment. I feel like others tend to use vague terms to describe me, such as “funny, smart, nice, quiet, etc.” I can’t say they’re wrong (although smart is debatable) but I know I’m more than that.




*Section 4.*


* *






> Are you, most of the time, acutely aware of the people, things and events occurring in your immediate surroundings?


Yes, I do try to be aware of my surroundings. I don’t like missing out if there are things going on around me so I make sure to pay attention to my environment, especially when I am alone. If I am with someone who can fill me in on possible events that I may have missed, I do let my guard down, though.



> Do you find yourself engaging in the sounds, colours, textures, scents and tastes of your environment - i.e, enjoying what you are currently experiencing, most of the time?


While I am not that observant when it comes to colors, it is very easy for me to engage in the sounds, scents, and tastes going on around me. Music and food are probably my two greatest loves in life and I love choosing songs and meals that I enjoy so I can relish in the senses they bring me in the present. Usually I don’t care much about textures, but I really do find pleasure in touching velvet.



> Do you seek common ground, when faced with new situations - thoughts like "this is like _____" or "this is similar to _____" - something that will stabilise the current situation and turn it into something more comfortable for you?


Yes, when faced with new situations I do tend to compare them to past situations I have experienced or things that I have read to give me comfort despite the change. In addition, this outlook helps me to understand what is happening to me.



> Do you find you have a strong sense for how things 'should be', even when faced with something unfamiliar?


Not really. If I’m in an unfamiliar situation, I think that anything is possible, even if I try to compare it to past things. I don’t think that there is one way that things are meant to be and acknowledge the possibility of alternatives.



> Do you actively engage in promoting a harmonious atmosphere - be honest with yourself, this includes being a conflict-averse introvert.


I tend to avoid conflicts, but not actively; this is just what comes naturally to me. I don’t care much about promoting a harmonious atmosphere. I’m used to being around unpleasant people anyways.



> Do you actively seek to connect with other people, and do you make use of social niceties in order to interact with people more smoothly - to make them feel validated, accepted, comfortable? - this includes regular use of "please", "thank you", etc.. general social niceties.


I don’t like to connect with or get close to other people, but I do employ good manners to keep my interactions with other people smooth. I make sure to say “please” and “thank you” when people expect it, hold doors open (mostly), and stuff like that. However, I try to be genuine in any compliments I give instead of just flattery.



> Do you find yourself not being dependent on agreement and harmony around you, as long as the current situation doesn't impact on your own personal inner balance?
> An example of this might be if you are doing something, and people are arguing in the same room - are you able to remain yourself, or will it affect your inner balance in a noticeable way?


Yes, I don’t care if other people are in conflict near me because I can easily detach myself from their problems and I can remain the same. Sometimes I even grab out the popcorn and watch. My inner balance is only affected if they somehow drag me into it and personally attack me.



> Do you try to win others over to your point of view, in debates, arguments or just chit-chat in general?
> I.e seeking agreement from the other person. Have a real think about this question, and be honest with yourself.


Even if I am absolutely convinced that I am right and the other person is a fucking moron, I try to avoid debates because I know that it is impossible to change another person’s opinion and from personal experience in the past I only end up getting irritated in arguments. I’m pretty good at staying out of debates nowadays, but if someone tries pushing some of their viewpoints on me then I become argumentative. However, I would say that’s more of justifying myself than getting others to join my point of view.



> You just read that a local vacuum company just went bankrupt.
> What your thoughts - feel free to expand and explore your thoughts and ideas as much as you like here. Please don't say "who cares?". Just do it.


Honestly I’d probably start getting some pretty stupid thoughts like “haha they got rekt” or “lol loser.”



> Do you comfortably juggle multiple possible options in your mind, when problem solving? Do you find yourself exploring each of them - entertaining any possibilities that may arise from them, and enjoy envisioning scenarios where these might play out?


Yes, I feel that it is best to reference multiple scenarios when trying to solve a problem because you never know how something will end up. I think I’ve stated earlier that I like to imagine myself in any possible situation that I think may happen when making a decision and I have fun doing this sometimes.



> Do you have a tendency to organise the world around you? Is it important for you to be in an orderly environment?
> This might manifest as a preference for predictability - consider these questions on a smaller scale than what might be in your mind - i.e. is it important that the knifes go in the knifes slot, that the Nintendo games go where the Nintendo games go, etc.


Well, I don’t care much for putting things in their proper places. However, I am very intent on following a schedule and become stressed when things fall out of my schedule. I do like predictability.



> Do you find you are impatient with regards to efficiency?
> Again, consider this also at a smaller scale - for example, do you prefer to rush through whatever chores that need to be done, so they're out the way?


Yes, I really want things to be done efficiently, using the least amount of time and energy needed to do an acceptable job.



> Do you find yourself taking over certain tasks because you know you can do it quicker?
> This might be as mundane as telling your partner or friend, that you'll do the dishes - because you know they'll take forever and it's just 'better' for you to do it, and smash 'em out ASAP so they're done.


Not unless it’s something I really want to do. I sure as hell ain’t gonna do someone else’s chore just because they’re an idiot about it.



> Is it of high importance to you, to understand all of the pieces of a puzzle.. or all of the information you're given, before coming to a decision or a conclusion about anything?
> This might manifest as a tendency to hesitate when coming to conclusions or decisions as you don't feel you fully defined, or understood, all relevant information yet.


No, I don’t find it important to understand every single piece of a problem before making my decision. I prefer to get a general idea about something and then come to the conclusion.


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## Dinognar (Aug 1, 2017)

Just saying ISTP and ISTJ are two VERY different personality types and eventually you will nail your type with time. But, from your description I'm getting more of an ISTJ vibe. Although, not everything from your description is necessarily a typical ISTJ trait most of the key decision you make seem to have a solid Si-Te style, therefor it's an ISTJ for me.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Dinognar said:


> Just saying ISTP and ISTJ are two VERY different personality types and eventually you will nail your type with time. But, from your description I'm getting more of an ISTJ vibe. Although, not everything from your description is necessarily a typical ISTJ trait most of the key decision you make seem to have a solid Si-Te style, therefor it's an ISTJ for me.


Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. If you don't mind, is there something in particular, like a direct quote I said that points you in the Si-Te direction?


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## Hunter1611 (Apr 27, 2010)

> I'm having trouble figuring out if I use Si-Te or Se-Ti. If you think I'm something other than ISTJ or ISTP, feel free to tell me that.
> I'm using Turi's questionnaire, by the way. I skipped a few but if you think I really should answer them, just let me know. Also, I'll try to answer any followup questions.


So. Why are you so certain you're ISTP or ISTJ? Something about your answers isn't quite syncing right in my mind. I could be way off, here, but did you ever consider INTJ? 
If I had to choose between the two, I would lean more ISTJ. 

I'll give you a few thoughts here...



> My verbal communication skills aren’t great. I stutter quite a bit, and I find it difficult to form my thoughts into sentences out loud.


This threw me a bit because it seems more indicative of Ti, since Si-Te tends to be pretty straightforward. Part of me wonders if Ni has a similar problem as Ti? 



> When it comes to small decisions, like what to eat, what album I should listen to next, and shit like that, I usually just go with a gut feeling that I can’t really explain that makes me crave one thing over another. This is my strategy (or lack of it) when I solve puzzles.


Well, if this is a legitimate gut feelings, it's anti-ISTJ because Ni is the gut function, and not only do ISTJ's not have it, the N they have is inferior. So this could point to an Ni, but if it just amounts to food cravings, I'll just call it biology rather than a gut feeling. 



> I can be rather analytical but indecisive when it comes to decisions that are bigger and wait for the last moment to make my choice. I like thinking about all the possible options, narrow it down to a smaller list using some sort of criteria, then imagine what would happen if I chose any of those options. For example, when I had to pick a university to attend. I imagined myself at selective schools such as Harvard or whatever but then narrowed it down because that was way out of the picture. Then, I used the criteria of not wanting to attend a school more than 1 hour away from where I currently live. I looked at all the schools within this radius, read about them, and imagined myself in all of them.


This strikes more as Te. Ti will put off decisions to leave all their options open to the last possible moment, regardless of whether they've basically figured out their decision already. Te will take forever making a decision because they're using every moment to analyze and think so they can make the best possible decision. Plus, the way you described your process sounds like Te. 



> I was really angry and stressed as a middle/high-schooler because of some of the assholes at my school. Simply, people being complete jerks and bullies irritate the fuck out of me, and it seemed like my school was full of them. It made me have a disdain for teenagers and really got to me, giving me violent thoughts on a daily basis. I eventually had to leave that environment.
> 
> These days I’m not as pissed as I was as a teenager but I feel like little inconsiderate things have been affecting me way more than they should. Stupid drivers and people not covering their mouths when they cough grate on every fiber of my being. I guess my main stress triggers are people treating me like I’m shit or invisible.


The invisible comment kinda struck me as inferior Fe, but the little inconsiderate things bothering you does not strike me as ISTP. ISTP is more likely just to maybe annoyed in the moment and then shrug it off quickly. You seem pretty keyed up over it.



> I tend to think of myself as an angry, angsty person, but I don’t show that side of me to most people so I’m not perceived that way. People usually think I’m shy, and I don’t disagree with this assessment. I feel like others tend to use vague terms to describe me, such as “funny, smart, nice, quiet, etc.” I can’t say they’re wrong (although smart is debatable) but I know I’m more than that.


So I keep seeing this emphasis on angry... angry over little things. I dunno if maybe you got something in your past to account for this, but Te types tend be intense in that way. Ti-Se will be more... laid back. They may react violently in a quick moment but will be less likely to maintain that constant state of angry. More in the moment reactive. Explosive and then calm again. 



> Yes, I do try to be aware of my surroundings. I don’t like missing out if there are things going on around me so I make sure to pay attention to my environment, especially when I am alone. If I am with someone who can fill me in on possible events that I may have missed, I do let my guard down, though.


This honestly doesn't tell me much. Se focuses in on the things around them, while not necessarily remembering tons of details later. Si tends to remember tons of details later but since Si is subjective details, if you compare the memories of 2 Si doms who were at the same event, the remembered information might be very very different. 



> While I am not that observant when it comes to colors, it is very easy for me to engage in the sounds, scents, and tastes going on around me. Music and food are probably my two greatest loves in life and I love choosing songs and meals that I enjoy so I can relish in the senses they bring me in the present. Usually I don’t care much about textures, but I really do find pleasure in touching velvet.


Strikes as more Se, but whose to say that Si doesn't enjoy physical pleasures as well lol. 



> Yes, when faced with new situations I do tend to compare them to past situations I have experienced or things that I have read to give me comfort despite the change. In addition, this outlook helps me to understand what is happening to me.


Obviously this sounds more Si-Te. 
I do wonder what kind of memory you have? Detail oriented or more abstract, general ideas and themes? 



> Not really. If I’m in an unfamiliar situation, I think that anything is possible, even if I try to compare it to past things. I don’t think that there is one way that things are meant to be and acknowledge the possibility of alternatives.


Honestly, Si is the security function, feeling the need to learn from the past and recreate what worked, and avoid what didn't like the plague. So, Si doms tend to think things should be a certain way. Your focus on possibilities seems anti that. More indicative of an N trait. I want to say Ni because I can't see you as having Ne even though both will focus on possibilities. 




> I tend to avoid conflicts, but not actively; this is just what comes naturally to me. I don’t care much about promoting a harmonious atmosphere. I’m used to being around unpleasant people anyways.





> I don’t like to connect with or get close to other people, but I do employ good manners to keep my interactions with other people smooth. I make sure to say “please” and “thank you” when people expect it, hold doors open (mostly), and stuff like that. However, I try to be genuine in any compliments I give instead of just flattery.


Anti-Fe. ISTP would still fit here because it's inferior. Living up to social expectations can point Fe, Si, Fi values, or a logical person's way of avoiding unnecessary conflict. (Avoiding unnecessary conflict does not equal promoting harmony.)



> Yes, I don’t care if other people are in conflict near me because I can easily detach myself from their problems and I can remain the same. Sometimes I even grab out the popcorn and watch. My inner balance is only affected if they somehow drag me into it and personally attack me.


This sounds more Te/Fi. An inferior Fe might not be deeply bothered, but depending on their use of Fe may still feel some urge to want the argument to end. I would probably recognize that it's happening, and then ignore.. and if it got too loud and annoying, leave the room. I wouldn't be interested in making a show out of it, and depending on the people and idiocy, might want to yell at both parties. 



> Even if I am absolutely convinced that I am right and the other person is a fucking moron, I try to avoid debates because I know that it is impossible to change another person’s opinion and from personal experience in the past I only end up getting irritated in arguments. I’m pretty good at staying out of debates nowadays, but if someone tries pushing some of their viewpoints on me then I become argumentative. However, I would say that’s more of justifying myself than getting others to join my point of view.


This could go either way. The Ti doms and Te auxs that I know don't really try to convert... The wording "justifying myself" strikes more Fi though. The Ti/Fe users that I know go more for....having their viewpoint understood and recognized as legitimate, even if the other people won't agree to it. 



> Yes, I feel that it is best to reference multiple scenarios when trying to solve a problem because you never know how something will end up. I think I’ve stated earlier that I like to imagine myself in any possible situation that I think may happen when making a decision and I have fun doing this sometimes.


If this a natural positive thing.. I'm leaning Ni with it. ISTJs with inferior Ne tend to come up with negative possibilities when stressing over a situation. 



> Well, I don’t care much for putting things in their proper places. However, I am very intent on following a schedule and become stressed when things fall out of my schedule. I do like predictability.


Si or Te or both



> Yes, I really want things to be done efficiently, using the least amount of time and energy needed to do an acceptable job.


Te



> Not unless it’s something I really want to do. I sure as hell ain’t gonna do someone else’s chore just because they’re an idiot about it.


Ha ha. I'm not sure what to do with this one though because I've done that at times, and the ISTJ I know does sometimes as well. Both Se and Te tends to be doing type traits. 



> No, I don’t find it important to understand every single piece of a problem before making my decision. I prefer to get a general idea about something and then come to the conclusion.


This sounds more Ni.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Hunter1611 said:


> So. Why are you so certain you're ISTP or ISTJ? Something about your answers isn't quite syncing right in my mind. I could be way off, here, but did you ever consider INTJ?
> If I had to choose between the two, I would lean more ISTJ.


Thank you so much for your help, this is the kind of in-depth response I was looking for. Honestly, I'm not sure why I never really considered INTJ, I've always assumed myself to be a sensor.



> I do wonder what kind of memory you have? Detail oriented or more abstract, general ideas and themes?


I think my memory is pretty detail-oriented. If I have a test I'm usually better at memorizing dates and names than more abstract stuff such as themes.


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## Hunter1611 (Apr 27, 2010)

> Thank you so much for your help, this is the kind of in-depth response I was looking for. Honestly, I'm not sure why I never really considered INTJ, I've always assumed myself to be a sensor.


Hmm. Unfortunately, I don't feel like there's much good information out there is describe an Ni dom. It's the trait that alot of people don't understand. Another way you could look at all this would be to determine how you react under stress. Looking into the inferior functions is usually pretty helpful. Ne for ISTJ, Fe for ISTP, and Se for INTJ. I've also heard that people get somewhat accurate results when they take a personality test and answer all the questions opposite of what they would. So if they get an ESTP, they're actually INFJ. 

Accurate Typing: The Inferior Function - Type Theory


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Hunter1611 said:


> Hmm. Unfortunately, I don't feel like there's much good information out there is describe an Ni dom. It's the trait that alot of people don't understand. Another way you could look at all this would be to determine how you react under stress. Looking into the inferior functions is usually pretty helpful. Ne for ISTJ, Fe for ISTP, and Se for INTJ. I've also heard that people get somewhat accurate results when they take a personality test and answer all the questions opposite of what they would. So if they get an ESTP, they're actually INFJ.
> 
> Accurate Typing: The Inferior Function - Type Theory


Thanks for this tip! That article was really helpful. I relate to the description of Inferior Se and to some extent to Inferior Ne, which confirms IxTJ.
I've done the backwards personality test thing and got ENFP and ENFJ, which points toward ISTx. I don't often score N on tests.
Yeah, you're right about there not being a lot of good information to describe a Ni dom. It seems like you know a good amount about this function, how did you learn about it?


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

@Turi

I hope you don't mind me tagging you. As a Ni-dom and creator of this questionnaire, do you think I'm a high Ni user based on what I have written here?


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

@Jaune Valjaune I agree with @Hunter1611 on you being an N. INTJ.

That would explain also why you can't pick between ISTP and ISTJ: neither is really you.


EDIT: adding some reasoning

N: _"If I’m in an unfamiliar situation, I think that anything is possible, even if I try to compare it to past things. I don’t think that there is one way that things are meant to be and acknowledge the possibility of alternatives."_

This is strong Intuition. Easily your Dominant function. I assume you do evaluate these things in a logical fashion with Te, but it seems like strong openness to intuitive possibilities.

Unless you just meant that in theory you accept that there are alternatives for how things are to be interpreted and don't orient by this at all. But the way you said this, it sounded natural. You can correct me here if I'm wrong, ofc.


Inferior Se: _"Yes, I do try to be aware of my surroundings. I don’t like missing out if there are things going on around me so I make sure to pay attention to my environment, especially when I am alone. If I am with someone who can fill me in on possible events that I may have missed, I do let my guard down, though."_

As for you doing this more easily when alone: indicates your Sensing is weak if you can't handle it as easily in more complex situations.

And you being willing to rely on others's help here also indicates that.


As for your detail-orientation: if it's your memory that's detail oriented, and you need this to manage your surroundings, covering details of the surroundings slowly, that sounds low Sensing to me. High Sensing - both Si and Se - easily and quickly deals with the perceptions of the environment. IxSJ's just have an attitude that's more structured based on one's own priority system and expectations, unlike ExSP's who have no priority system or expectations determining everything else.


Also, typical INTJ Fi with Se inferior: 

_"I was really angry and stressed as a middle/high-schooler because of some of the assholes at my school. Simply, people being complete jerks and bullies irritate the fuck out of me, and it seemed like my school was full of them. It made me have a disdain for teenagers and really got to me, giving me violent thoughts on a daily basis. I eventually had to leave that environment.

These days I’m not as pissed as I was as a teenager but I feel like little inconsiderate things have been affecting me way more than they should. Stupid drivers and people not covering their mouths when they cough grate on every fiber of my being. I guess my main stress triggers are people treating me like I’m shit or invisible."

"I tend to think of myself as an angry, angsty person, but I don’t show that side of me to most people so I’m not perceived that way. People usually think I’m shy, and I don’t disagree with this assessment. I feel like others tend to use vague terms to describe me, such as “funny, smart, nice, quiet, etc.” I can’t say they’re wrong (although smart is debatable) but I know I’m more than that."_


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I think my memory is pretty detail-oriented. If I have a test I'm usually better at memorizing dates and names than more abstract stuff such as themes.


This is something I've had INTJ friend tell me before. Some kind of abstract stuff she really does not deal well with. She cannot imagine anything for the blotches in the Rorschach test for example. She has an issue with some Feeling-based stuff in general, which probably has to do with this issue too. She has a flair of Aspergers though. At the same time, she will be really abstract about simple real life situations compared to me. She has to analyze it all out in her head before she can deal with certain stuff where immediate strong Sensing would just deal with it right away. She is very detail oriented in analyzing those things. My take on why this is the case is that she cannot perceive the Sensations together easily, so she has to break them down in details first.

What kind of themes do you have trouble with?


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

Run.


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## 1000BugsNightSky (May 8, 2014)

if you're sandpit turtle, istp makes sense. I don't see you as Judger, nor Te heavy.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

@Moonious Yeah, I'm Sandpit Turtle. I have a hard time seeing J for myself too, to be honest.
@grumpytiger Thanks so much for the reply, I forgot I even had this questionnaire up.



grumpytiger said:


> @Jaune Valjaune
> 
> N: _"If I’m in an unfamiliar situation, I think that anything is possible, even if I try to compare it to past things. I don’t think that there is one way that things are meant to be and acknowledge the possibility of alternatives."_
> 
> ...


Yeah, it does come naturally to me.



> Inferior Se: _"Yes, I do try to be aware of my surroundings. I don’t like missing out if there are things going on around me so I make sure to pay attention to my environment, especially when I am alone. If I am with someone who can fill me in on possible events that I may have missed, I do let my guard down, though."_
> 
> As for you doing this more easily when alone: indicates your Sensing is weak if you can't handle it as easily in more complex situations.
> 
> And you being willing to rely on others's help here also indicates that.


Hmm, I never thought of it that way, interesting. Maybe I thought I was a sensor because I pay too much to my sensing, rather than it coming naturally to me. A lot of my friends do say I'm observant and such, but I guess that's not sensor-exclusive.



> She is very detail oriented in analyzing those things. My take on why this is the case is that she cannot perceive the Sensations together easily, so she has to break them down in details first.
> 
> What kind of themes do you have trouble with?


I'm not really good with figuring out analogies and such, I suck at reading "between the lines." I guess the most notable example would be if I'm reading a story for school and they ask what the theme of the story is. I can remember what the characters did, but unless it's said explicitly I'm not sure why they did the things they did.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

ISTP - emotional on the outside, dead inside
ISTJ - seems grim and grumpy most of the time, but has sentimental feelings towards specific persons


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> Thanks so much for the reply, I forgot I even had this questionnaire up.


Np 




> Yeah, it does come naturally to me.


Except when it comes to people related themes?




> Hmm, I never thought of it that way, interesting. Maybe I thought I was a sensor because I pay too much to my sensing, rather than it coming naturally to me. A lot of my friends do say I'm observant and such, but I guess that's not sensor-exclusive.


Yeah my INTJ friend, the one I mentioned above is also observant about things that interest her. Mostly certain animals, mechanics of some stuff. Oh she will also use her Sensing more when alone, and she can use it to destress in a weird way... She told me she once watched her new chameleon in its terrarium for 3 full hours. She also likes to observe certain animals elsewhere, just watches them pretty passively forever but likes to analyze them at the same time I think.  Me personally, I'd get bored really fast just watching the same thing for that long if I didn't have some other goal with this.




> I'm not really good with figuring out analogies and such, I suck at reading "between the lines." I guess the most notable example would be if I'm reading a story for school and they ask what the theme of the story is. I can remember what the characters did, but unless it's said explicitly I'm not sure why they did the things they did.


If you don't mind me asking, have you considered Aspergers? My INTJ friend has had a lot of trouble too here until she took it up as a pastime to analyze people out. She claimed after a few years that she got bored with analyzing them out, now she sees all the repeating patterns and whatnot. (She still doesn't read between the lines though.) Speaking of repeating patterns... She once started watching some TV series that I already watched and really enjoyed... she almost stopped after a few episodes, telling me that she figured out the pattern of what is going to happen next. lol. I don't know if you relate to this sort of pattern perception.




jetser said:


> ISTP - emotional on the outside, dead inside
> ISTJ - seems grim and grumpy most of the time, but has sentimental feelings towards specific persons


Interesting. I have the grim look but I can mirror/respond to certain people so that looks emotional maybe...? Not very emotional though, I think, just... involved and smiling a lot. Did you mean more than that when you called ISTP emotional on the outside?

Otoh I don't ever feel dead inside, even if I don't feel emotional, I don't feel empty - and sure, I get to have some warmer feelings towards people important to me.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

grumpytiger said:


> Except when it comes to people related themes?


Yeah, I noticed my intution is really bad when it comes to people. I compared my Ni to a lot of NFJs and I don't seem to have their gift at reading people.



> If you don't mind me asking, have you considered Aspergers?


I've had passing thoughts about relating to some of the symptoms of Aspergers but never really looked into it in detail.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

You've got that Fe-female competitiveness going on so you're not likely an ISTJ. But I also don't think you're an ISTP since they exhibit bad ass behaviour. Have you considered ISFJ?


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Duo said:


> You've got that Fe-female competitiveness going on so you're not likely an ISTJ. But I also don't think you're an ISTP since they exhibit bad ass behaviour. Have you considered ISFJ?


That's interesting. I haven't really seriously considered ISFJ, most aux Fe descriptions never really resonated with me. Also they usually seem pretty nice and unrelatable but I've never really known any well. What would be some examples of the female competitiveness in my questionnaire and how they relate to Fe, if you don't mind going into detail?


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> That's interesting. I haven't really seriously considered ISFJ, most aux Fe descriptions never really resonated with me. Also they usually seem pretty nice and unrelatable but I've never really known any well. What would be some examples of the female competitiveness in my questionnaire and how they relate to Fe, if you don't mind going into detail?


Rather than me pinpointing the incidents, do you consider yourself competitive with other women, relative to male attention?


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Duo said:


> Rather than me pinpointing the incidents, do you consider yourself competitive with other women, relative to male attention?


I never really paid much attention to gender being a factor in my competitiveness, honestly, so I would say no.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I never really paid much attention to gender being a factor in my competitiveness, honestly, so I would say no.


Guess you know yourself better than anyone else but it's a behaviour that you might want to think about.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Duo said:


> Guess you know yourself better than anyone else but it's a behaviour that you might want to think about.


The main reason I made this questionnaire is to get to know myself better based on other people's input, so I am quite curious about any leads you have toward ISFJ to me, and any specific instances of this behavior I've done so I can perhaps fix it in the future. I would like to think about it but I'm not quite good with vague comments so I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate.


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## gassendi (May 5, 2018)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I'm having trouble figuring out if I use Si-Te or Se-Ti.


The bigger question concerns the perceiving (N, S) and judging (T, F) axes, so as to determine which functions are extraverted and introverted respectively. We can deal with dominant and auxiliary functions later.

By method of elimination, I have two questions relating to the first pair: 
1a. What is your immediate reaction to my avatar?
1b. Which writer or style of writing do you prefer? 

And then there are two relating to judging:
2a. How do you react to off-topic posts or logically incoherent comments?
2b. What do you do online when someone is being attacked or dogpiled?


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

gassendi said:


> The bigger question concerns the perceiving (N, S) and judging (T, F) axes, so as to determine which functions are extraverted and introverted respectively. We can deal with dominant and auxiliary functions later.
> 
> By method of elimination, I have two questions relating to the first pair:
> 1a. What is your immediate reaction to my avatar?


I know that it is Stalin but I'm not bothered by it. I think he looks aesthetic in the avatar, actually, his hair is nice and I like the checkered shirt. I also like black and white pictures a lot.



> 1b. Which writer or style of writing do you prefer?


Honestly I haven't been reading a lot. I don't have a favorite author. I really liked _The Stranger_ by Camus (although a lot of that depended on the translator, I suppose). Generally I like stuff that isn't too hard to understand. I like some artistic techniques like alliteration from time to time but nothing over-the-top.



> 2a. How do you react to off-topic posts or logically incoherent comments?


Off-topic posts honestly bother me, especially when they get in the way of something I said and distract people from replying to me. I used to try to redirect people but I haven't done that in a while, usually seems like an honest mistake that isn't worth correcting. If I see a logically incoherent comment, first I try to figure out what it means, and maybe ask the person to explain.



> 2b. What do you do online when someone is being attacked or dogpiled?


It really depends on the situation. First, I'm much more likely to respond if the person is a friend of mine. It also depends on my mood, how bad I think the scenario is, if the people being attacked seem to be doing a good job defending themselves, etc.


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## gassendi (May 5, 2018)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I know that it is Stalin but I'm not bothered by it. I think he looks aesthetic in the avatar, actually, his hair is nice and I like the checkered shirt. I also like black and white pictures a lot.


That points to Se/Ni, as the aesthetically pleasing (Se) stands in preference to the trail of blood that signifies Stalin's imprint on world history (Si).



> Honestly I haven't been reading a lot. I don't have a favorite author. I really liked _The Stranger_ by Camus (although a lot of that depended on the translator, I suppose). Generally I like stuff that isn't too hard to understand. I like some artistic techniques like alliteration from time to time but nothing over-the-top.


The dreamy and imaginatively inclined often go for Ne/Si and the writings of Poe, Kafka, Camus, or the like. Meanwhile, the more direct writers, such as Hemingway (Se/Ni) or Tolstoy (Ni/Se), prefer conceptual clarity and condensed, descriptive writing. And even though you mentioned Camus above, your overall expression strikes me as far more in line with Se/Ni.



> Off-topic posts honestly bother me, especially when they get in the way of something I said and distract people from replying to me. I used to try to redirect people but I haven't done that in a while, usually seems like an honest mistake that isn't worth correcting. If I see a logically incoherent comment, first I try to figure out what it means, and maybe ask the person to explain.


That answer is a solid and patient Ti, which by necessity also entails Fe.



> It really depends on the situation. First, I'm much more likely to respond if the person is a friend of mine. It also depends on my mood, how bad I think the scenario is, if the people being attacked seem to be doing a good job defending themselves, etc.


Here, the impulse is to defend, even if you stand off to see how well the attacked party is handling it, the other qualifiers aside. Again, Ti/Fe comes to mind, which expresses a personal understanding (Ti) through the grid of what is socially acceptable (Fe).

With the function axes settled, Se/Ni and Ti/Fe respectively, we get what socionics calls the beta quadrant, containing NFJ/STP. Considering your initial question, this closes the book on ISTJ and definitely points to ISTP.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Just gonna come in and say that a lot of what Juane said about your avatar is something I would have said. 

That said, I think he's an ugly motherfucker that looks like a psychopath already with those cold, deadish eyes ... But that doesn't change the fact that it's very much Se.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

@gassendi

The Se is inferior. He will let others handle Se. Patience doesn't have to mean Ti.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> Yeah, I noticed my intution is really bad when it comes to people. I compared my Ni to a lot of NFJs and I don't seem to have their gift at reading people.


OK so the "themes" you said you have trouble remembering are people related themes always yeah?




> I've had passing thoughts about relating to some of the symptoms of Aspergers but never really looked into it in detail.


Why not look into it, some of the information might be useful to you even if you do not have all symptoms


And btw this was meant as a question actually lol: "I don't know if you relate to this sort of pattern perception."

Do you?


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> Just gonna come in and say that a lot of what Juane said about your avatar is something I would have said.
> 
> That said, I think he's an ugly motherfucker that looks like a psychopath already with those cold, deadish eyes ... But that doesn't change the fact that it's very much Se.


I think it's bullsh. Knowing your way of history or thinking that someone might have done too many bad things to look good has nothing to do with Si or Se.

Generally speaking you can not determine someone's type based on what he/she likes.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

jetser said:


> I think it's bullsh. Knowing your way of history or thinking that someone might have done too many bad things to look good has nothing to do with Si or Se.
> 
> Generally speaking you can not determine someone's type based on what he/she likes.


Who's talking about that? We're talking about her / his initial reaction being to point out the sensor-like details. It points to a Sensation cognition preference. 

Perhaps read and understand context before knee jerking.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> Who's talking about that? We're talking about her initial reaction being to point out the sensor-like details. It points to a Sensation cognition preference.
> 
> Perhaps read and understand context before knee jerking.


No, he was specifically talking about a preference of Se over Si, based on that she acknowledged aesthetics over historical facts.

_"That points to Se/Ni, as the aesthetically pleasing (Se) stands in preference to the trail of blood that signifies Stalin's imprint on world history (Si)."_


And if you ask me about a picture I will point out aesthetic details too, because guess what - it's a picture. You can not talk about a picture and not point out aesthetic details.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

Sounds more ISTP to me. The decision making process is the same overall structure that I relate to that is likely the Pe-Ji axis (Perception to gather all possibilities, Judgement to consider each in turn and rule them out), and the rest doesn't seem too typically ISTJ. The being annoyed with a lack of manners or social consideration for others even seems Fe.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

jetser said:


> I think it's bullsh.* Knowing your way of history or thinking that someone might have done too many bad things to look good has nothing to do with Si or Se.[/b>
> 
> Generally speaking you can not determine someone's type based on what he/she likes.*


*

You said the above and I highlighted the bold point where you missed the general preference indicated for noticing aesthetics which is actually very much a preference for extroverted sensing. Noticing objects in the environment. Introverted Sensing is more about impressions. Not often oriented towards the object. Not as easily as extroverted sensing. You missed a key point in what pointed towards an Se preference. 



jetser said:



No, he was specifically talking about a preference of Se over Si, based on that she acknowledged aesthetics over historical facts.

"That points to Se/Ni, as the aesthetically pleasing (Se) stands in preference to the trail of blood that signifies Stalin's imprint on world history (Si)."

Click to expand...

Yes. And that's correct. The fact that someone is oriented towards the object and considers the aesthetics of an object is extroverted sensing. Object in the external world first. Each type notices different things. Si types tend to have more of a nostalgic impression / recollection from the objects in the external world since it's inward oriented. Extroverted Sensing tends to notice more about the object itself.



jetser said:



And if you ask me about a picture I will point out aesthetic details too, because guess what - it's a picture. You can not talk about a picture and not point out aesthetic details.

Click to expand...

I just saw this edit. Actually yes you can. That is the whole point of the "picture test".*


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> You said the above and I highlighted the bold point where you missed the general preference indicated for noticing aesthetics which is actually very much a preference for extroverted sensing. Noticing objects in the environment. Introverted Sensing is more about impressions. Not often oriented towards the object. Not as easily as extroverted sensing. You missed a key point in what pointed towards an Se preference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay. If you think you can type someone based on an answer about a specific picture, go on then.

Occurencess like this ruin this forum and turn into a kind of horoscope MBTI.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

jetser said:


> Okay. If you think you can type someone based on an answer about a specific picture, go on then.
> 
> *Occurencess like this ruin this forum and turn into a kind of horoscope MBTI.*


And yet you can't refute an argument with fact so you walk around strutting like you know something without actually showing it.

I don't even know why you're throwing a hissy fit right now :laughing:


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## gassendi (May 5, 2018)

jetser said:


> Occurencess like this ruin this forum and turn into a kind of horoscope MBTI.


Chill.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

Arrogantly Grateful said:


> And yet you can't refute an argument with fact so you walk around strutting like you know something without actually showing it.
> 
> I don't even know why you're throwing a hissy fit right now :laughing:


I wasn't.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

gassendi said:


> Chill.


On your way on to becoming the man on your picture. :wink:


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

jetser said:


> Okay. If you think you can type someone based on an answer about a specific picture, go on then.
> 
> Occurencess like this ruin this forum and turn into a kind of horoscope MBTI.


The main issue I see here in general is people intently focusing on one small detail to the extent that they can basically create any conclusion out of it they want. Accurate typing to me is more about keeping the bigger picture or context in mind. It's like someone saying "this object has branches, so it clearly must be a tree", but if they looked at the bigger picture maybe they'd see the river.


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## jetser (Jan 6, 2016)

dizzycactus said:


> The main issue I see here in general is people intently focusing on one small detail to the extent that they can basically create any conclusion out of it they want. Accurate typing to me is more about keeping the bigger picture or context in mind. It's like someone saying "this object has branches, so it clearly must be a tree", but if they looked at the bigger picture maybe they'd see the river.


Exactly.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

grumpytiger said:


> OK so the "themes" you said you have trouble remembering are people related themes always yeah?


I think for the most part, there could be a couple exceptions but can't think of any examples at the moment.



> Why not look into it, some of the information might be useful to you even if you do not have all symptoms


Sure, thanks for the suggestion.



> And btw this was meant as a question actually lol: "I don't know if you relate to this sort of pattern perception."
> 
> Do you?


Yeah I do. I haven't really noticed it before, but my mom actually recently said that I get analytical about patterns that actually interest me, such as if I'm watching a show like your friend and can predict stuff.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

jetser arguing against Se vs Si and then agreeing with dizzy eventually about typing methodology is amusing to me because dizzycactus also saw Se. 

Just saw it probably in some other way as compared to how Gassendi and myself saw it. 

Similar conclusions. Different methods. h:


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Jaune Valjaune said:


> I think for the most part, there could be a couple exceptions but can't think of any examples at the moment.


Makes sense for INTJ with perhaps the Asperger-ish traits added.




> Sure, thanks for the suggestion.


Np!




> Yeah I do. I haven't really noticed it before, but my mom actually recently said that I get analytical about patterns that actually interest me, such as if I'm watching a show like your friend and can predict stuff.


That's Ni.


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