# INFP Or ISFJ (Or Something Else?)



## vldrm (Jun 17, 2021)

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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> We use all the functions, all the time, but some we don't act or feel or think much of them because they act as shadow functions.
> 
> For me* Fi has always been a burden*, it’s a conglomerations of emotions that many times don’t let me act or speak spontaneously, as I would like at least, it’s this huge sea of emotions I have to dive through before I can go out into the world and say something as trivial “yes, I like that”. Fi helps us to dig into ourselves and determine what is right and wrong with an issue-- for us, and then we sort the incoming data through those measures.
> 
> ...


Such a detailed response, I really appreciate it. Re: Fe vs. Fi, I definitely relate to not being able to describe my emotions--whenever people ask, "How do you feel about that?" I freeze up. I can tell you all day what I think, explain my rationale, etc., but how I feel? That's so deep, so complex, I can't just give a simple emotion for it.

But I think I do tend to feel people's emotions, or a room's "vibe"--I think. If someone is mad, for instance, I'll get uncomfortable, and feel others' tension--but a lot of that is my own tension that I'm feeling too. But I've always thought I can feel others' emotions. So I don't know.

Your thought about idolizing the inferior function is brilliant. I love being logical, love love love it, love being objective and helping others make objective decisions. But I also love Ne, and maybe you're right, maybe I am idolizing it. I've thought that myself, though not in those terms. I just don't know. Re: Si, I do use it a good amount, I guess, especially when doing a task I've just learned, and I am fairly organized, but I don't enjoy organizing. I've learned it's smart so I keep track of things going on in my life and don't forget things. But, in contrast, my mom seems to actually like organizing things. It gives her satisfaction. Organizing anything is boring as heck to me (although I do love categorizing things, like people into personality types--ha ha). I want to be thinking about things, and creating, not having to worry about structure. But if I need to get a project done, I naturally organize, to be efficient.

I've read about inferior Te and Ne, and I relate to both. Like I said, I have a lot of anxiety, always have, about things that could go wrong, but I'm also not always afraid of something new--e.g., say I'm hiking with my mom, and I'll see a cool side trail that goes off into the woods, like a tunnel. That's exciting, and I'll say, "Ooh, I wonder what's down there, I'm going to check it out." That's my first reaction. But she'll say, "Ooh, yeah, you don't know what's up around the bend. Maybe you shouldn't go. There might be..." and she doesn't want to go, because she doesn't know what's there. I want to go, because I don't know what's there and it could be really cool.

I honestly never have thought I'm a sensor--but some others seem to think I am, and I think they may have good points. But I'm not inclined to think about the concrete world much. I don't have a ton of hobbies to be honest. Well, they're largely related to my characters. I write, I research history and psychology related to my characters (and psychology related to myself and others), I read fiction (though I'm picky about what I like now), I look at maps (I've always loved maps, I'll make up people who live in different places), collect old yearbooks (that started as a way to help me create more realistic characters, but I don't do it so much anymore), listen to music (all the time), and sing. I also watch and re-watch some TV shows (and song vids made from them) that I really love, mostly ones that deal with close friendships--I'm obsessed with friendships and sibling relationships, maybe because I'm an only child. Can't get enough of them. Buddy stories, like Starsky & Hutch, The Professionals, Supernatural, Alias Smith and Jones, Xena Warrior Princess, etc. Anything with two people who have a deep connection like that, I guess maybe I project some of myself onto one character, because I might want a relationship like that. I mostly likely drama--comedy doesn't dive deep enough into emotions and human relationships for me.

Maybe I will post some of my writing here--that feels like a scary thing to do, but I do think it might be helpful. Thanks for all your help. 

Have any more INFP friends who could give their opinions?


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

One other note: I always thought I used Ti, not Te--I love understanding all of a system, especially if I'm interested in it. Like, "Why does this go here? How do these parts work together? Let's see what happens if I put this here." I don't know if that's Ti, though. I have been told by others that I can be very objective, e.g. when giving advice, mostly if the problem doesn't have to do with me personally. I can detach myself and look at the situation from different angles, and I love doing that. Does this mean anything?


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

I realize it's a lot to read and you might not want to, but if you want more info/more details, here's my first post (when I answered the questionnaire): Please Help Me Type Myself


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> We use all the functions, all the time, but some we don't act or feel or think much of them because they act as shadow functions.
> 
> For me* Fi has always been a burden*, it’s a conglomerations of emotions that many times don’t let me act or speak spontaneously, as I would like at least, it’s this huge sea of emotions I have to dive through before I can go out into the world and say something as trivial “yes, I like that”. Fi helps us to dig into ourselves and determine what is right and wrong with an issue-- for us, and then we sort the incoming data through those measures.
> 
> ...





vldrm said:


> We use all the functions, all the time, but some we don't act or feel or think much of them because they act as shadow functions.
> 
> For me* Fi has always been a burden*, it’s a conglomerations of emotions that many times don’t let me act or speak spontaneously, as I would like at least, it’s this huge sea of emotions I have to dive through before I can go out into the world and say something as trivial “yes, I like that”. Fi helps us to dig into ourselves and determine what is right and wrong with an issue-- for us, and then we sort the incoming data through those measures.
> 
> ...


[QUOTE="vldrm, post: 44196981, member: 565555"

What I’m saying is that the lowest function in a person’s stack is what you would _like_ to be. If we follow along this idea, we can make the following hypothesis: you may be an ISFJ because of your infatuation with Ne, considering that ISFJ has this stack: Si, Fe, Ti, Ne. Ne is your ideal function, because it’s the lowest in your stack… if you were an ISFJ, which I think it’s very unlikely, but I can pose such proposition based on what you have given us.

[/QUOTE]
Well, this terrifies me, because it might be true. Makes so much sense. I know it's okay to be a sensor, and the last thing I want to do is offend anyone! I guess I just want to settle on one type so I can stop obsessing over this. I've always thought I was an INFJ... 

I don't know why Fi just isn't sitting right with me. But neither is ISFJ. I just don't want to go around mistyped.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

Also @vldrm, this probably bothers me the most: it seems generally agreed upon that Fi-users have a decent sense of self. In some ways I do, but in other ways I feel like I don't. I know I feel deeply, but most of the time I don't even think about what I could be feeling. I guess what I'm saying is, I value my feelings but I also devalue them in favor of logic/thinking. But, maybe this is just emotion, not Fi? I have to remind myself that Fi isn't emotions, Fi is values...

I've grown up valuing logic over feelings, though (logic/facts are more important than feelings), but this should only impact personality so much, right?

Anyway, if what you said I said is can actually be Fi (I don't want to upset people because I don't want to be that kind of person, etc.) than I really relate to Fi. But I just can't be sure. I overthink everything.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Hey, sorry i haven't replied still. All your answers are packed with Ne from the start! At least from what I notice. You're looking for multiple perspectives and focusing on a bunch of separate ideas at the same time. You keep looking at different ideas and sides of the topic and even after you've settled more ramifications and considerations pop into the conversation. You say you want more perspectives, to try to get the full picture and that's what Ne does... Si over Ne on the other hand tends to want to focus on something specific and then it can expand on it from that point of focus.
And the concern of identity and Fi is Fi ish itself.
Also self-discovery is very much a part of the Fi process. You're always checking in with yourself and self referring to see how you're feeling about things as you go along and your morals are constantly changing and evolving as that is the focus of your life For some reason, people think that high Fi makes it so that you already have your identity defined and not at all, the self-discovery is a crucial part of it: Fi is constantly reinventing itself through the support of both Ne and Si as well. (The more "rigid" personal moral stance/identity alligns more for someone with high Te and low Fi, as Fi is not the focus of their lives.)
The black and white thinking thing with Fi doesn't add up for me as well. Any IP is expansive by nature, they're constantly taking in new information into their world view. Fi also isn't separate from Te, so we're also constantly using and trying to find Te evidence to support our moral judgements as well.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

mosquitosoup said:


> Hey, sorry i haven't replied still. All your answers are packed with Ne from the start! At least from what I notice. Looking for multiple perspectives and focusing on a bunch of separate ideas at the same time. You keep looking at different ideas and sides of the topic and even after you've settled more ramifications and considerations pop into the conversation. You say you want more perspectives, to try to get the full picture and that's what Ne does... Si over Ne on the other hand tends to want to focus on something specific and then it can expand on it from that point of focus.


To add to what I talked about here, Ne seems to be a very constant and natural process in your life for it to be an inferior or lower function.


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## vldrm (Jun 17, 2021)

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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> sometimes feel like I have multiple selves, I can take different perspectives (maybe a 9 thing?), but most of all I want to be honest and figure out who I really am.


Yes, this alligns with so 9, the chameleon. Though 6, 9 and 3 all have different types of struggles with identity: they can all be very adaptable especially 9 and 3. And also you're just a complex human being. But the focus on wanting to find your identity is Fi in itself.


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> My issue is that I just don't see things so black-and-white as it seems a lot of Fi-users do...but I definitely relate to either liking/disliking something, or just not caring. Most things are neutral to me. I guess I get thrown off thinking I don't have Fi (and maybe I don't, who knows) because someone will say, "Oh, I don't care about xxx behavior," and I think, "Yeah, I do, that's wrong." And then I start to wonder, do I think it's wrong because of my religious beliefs (which are very strong) or because most of society values it--is it a cultural thing, Fe? Or is it Fi? And some of my values have changed over time...


Like I mentioned above, of course your values are bound to change over time and as you gain experience. That's just normal. And we all take from different sources when it comes to what we value. Sometimes our own personal values also allign with some cultural values too, so that's mot necessarily a sign of Fe. But feeling a gap between what you value and what people around you and being concerned about the fact that you don't care or do care about something is an Fi thing. 


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> As to inferior Ne--well, I definitely am not a huge fan of change, but it depends on the change. I wouldn't mind moving somewhere else, trying a whole new life, etc. It would be very hard, leaving family whom I'm very close to, but fun too. But in day-to-day life, I do like knowing what I'm going to be doing on the weekend, or if I'm going out with a friend, I want to plan and make sure I know what we're doing/where we're going, so I can mentally prepare. I suppose this is a big reason people think I'm Si-dom, and maybe I am. I need to feel prepared/safe/secure. I suppose this could be a 6 thing too? I generally don't go for spur-of-the-moment things--I need to prepare myself, as I said. I don't want to get lost or otherwise get stressed out.


Doesn't scream Si dom to me. I think wanting to know what you're gonna do ahead of time could be attributed to introversion as well. We're usually not ready to jump right into action, so having a vague idea of what something might entail for you mentally is helpful. A concern with security, safety and preparation alligns with type 6, yes. 
Here's a question, when you're learning about a new hobby or a new skill, where do you start? 



Through a Glass Darkly said:


> I do catastrophize a bit (what if this goes wrong, what if this happens), but I don't know if I really have inferior Ne or not. I also relate to inferior Te. But I do have a lot of anxiety about life in general, about getting things right, organizing and scheduling, etc. Juggling appointments is so stressful for me. It's important, but when I have a lot of stuff coming up, I have this need to organize it all so I don't forget and I have it all planned, and I hyperfixate on details, and it's very stressful. This is why I'm not sure I'm Si-dom--I have a need for structure, but I don't enjoy organizing. I just know it's smart to do.


If it's a very stressful process for you, do you do anything to make sure it's not a stressful process for you in the future? Because that's a way in which high Si users use their Ne. Basically they take from their past experiences and according to that they might be able to predict troubles that they might encounter in the future. It's a practical and methodical application.


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Jung's description of Si also throws me--it seems very imaginative, very subjective, similar to what Fi seems like. Do you have any thoughts on this?


It is!! Because it's an introverted and subjective function, it takes sensory data from their environment in a very personal way. And it's selective, it knows very well what it likes and what it doesn't like, so it's similar to Fi in those aspects. My stepmom is an ISFJ 6w5 and she has a connection with sensory experiences that's very personal. I share and understand some of it, but it's very methodical so I don't fully relate to it. She remembers important details because she plans everything ahead to a t. She has a lot systems in place in order to make things easier for her when she has to do idk stuff like laundry or something and hopes and encourages us to abide by those rules (possibly to make things easier in the environment and to avoid misunderstandings and conflicts within the family). Basically, if Si detects something that bothers it, and the person will remember that well and therefore do something about it. For me, as a low Si user, I have a personal connection to sensory experiences as well, but I'm not that proficient at using that wisely and applying it to my environment/life.
I sometimes will make the same clumsy mistakes over again or I won't even think that I could do something about a sensory hinderance until someone points it out to me. 

It can be a kind of romantic function I guess. I have read that ISFJs are the most idealistic among sensors. It enjoys the process of incremental learning, so it's very good at this slow process and appreciating and cataloguing sensory experiences. And I'm assuming because of Fe, they can connect those experiences to people as well, and that can bring further appreciation of those experiences as well, because they can apply to harmonize their environment (again Im assuming from what I've observed in other isfjs, but im not sure since it's not my domain). 


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> One other thing: something I've done since I was a kid is check to make sure everyone in a group is okay with something. E.g. with a project, if no one else asks, I'll ask each individual, "Are you okay with this? Does this sound good to you?" If not, I want to know, because I don't want to move forward with the plan until everyone is comfortable with whatever we're doing. I always thought this was Fe. What do you think?


This is the only thing that strikes me as potentially Fe from what you've said. Fe is an organizer and it often works on getting people on the same page.
Obviously you have to think about what the motivation behind this behavior is. Does it have to do with the result that you might get if people aren't on the same page? Does it have to do with a moral standard that you have for yourself where you wouldn't want someone to dismiss your opinions or discomfort during a group project and therefore wouldn't want to do that to someone else? Is the harmony in the environment important to your peace of mind on a personal level or are you concerned that it's important for everyone else instead? Do you feel morally responsible for the harmony in the group and that's why you do it or is it just a nice thing to do (a gesture that maybe you would appreciate and think others might too because of that)?


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> And then I start obsessing: who am I? What is my voice? And I don't know, but I want to be myself. I know in some ways who I am, but not in all ways. It seems Fi-doms are fairly self-aware and know who they are. I've never felt I know myself very well (although I'm learning).


As I mentioned before, getting to know yourself is more crucial than simply knowing yourself and moving on is to an Fi dom. They're always trying to dig deeper and find new things within themselves and other people. I think the idea of never changing or evolving at all would be excruciating to any P type.
Also from everything you have said so far, you actually do seem self-aware, but you might have trouble asserting yourself and valuing your own ideas or contributions. I think part of you doesn't want to believe youre an Fi user, because of the stereotypes you see online. You're afraid of misrepresenting yourself👀 and also maybe that other people will assume things about you that aren't true based on that.
But so far you have been able to respond to everything we've said or asked about you with a lot of dominion and a good understanding of how your mind works. It's just that humans are contradictory and you also have a lot on your mind, so it's hard for you to narrow it all into one single thing, because you are a lot of different things at once. A confusing sentence, but I think you'll probably understand what I'm saying.



Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Have any more INFP friends who could give their opinions?


I actually think it would be good if you could get some insight from an ISFJ instead. I think Ne users tend to romanticize Si a bit and since there are so many intuitives on the internet, Si is expressed from the perspective of what it's like to have Low Si (aka boring details or nostalgia trips or the "playful" part of the function, rather than its practical and functional purpose in everyday life and in someone who uses it as their main approach or instinct in life).


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> “I hate planning things” – couldn’t be a judging type, wanting to discard INFJ at that point.


Thank you so much for taking the time to analyze my super-long post. And humans are complex, because I'm going to say some things that will contradict what I previously wrote, lol.

Did you take this from my original post? Because I don't hate planning--sorry if I wrote in an unclear way--I won't say I like it, but I feel the need to do it, so I know what's going to happen in the coming days/at a certain event. What I meant by that sentence in my original post was that I hate last-minute planning--that terrifies me. It means I have to change my mindset, change what I was expecting and what my mind was expecting, and prepare to _socialize_. Which is not my strong suit or preference, lol. So, in short, I don't hate planning, I feel it's very necessary for my sanity. But I view planning and organizing as different things. Like, I organize and plan so I don't forget things--so I can be free to do other things. I don't organize and plan because I like to. But I don't know anyone who really likes organizing. I suppose Si-doms might dislike organizing too, maybe?

Anyway I wanted to clear that up. Sorry again for any confusion. I'm going to ponder the rest of your reply and try to come up with a response that isn't pages long. 

As to if I write fantasy--actually I really don't. I have written one sort-of fantasy novel (it's more speculative, it has no magic or stuff like that, just takes place in another world), and it was super fun to write, but I based it on a dream. It wasn't something I would just think up myself. I'm not opposed to fantasy at all, but it's not really my thing--I prefer to write realistic stories mostly because I can know the world fairly well, and then I have more mental energy to focus on the characters' relationships and emotions.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> Hey, sorry i haven't replied still. All your answers are packed with Ne from the start! At least from what I notice. You're looking for multiple perspectives and focusing on a bunch of separate ideas at the same time. You keep looking at different ideas and sides of the topic and even after you've settled more ramifications and considerations pop into the conversation. You say you want more perspectives, to try to get the full picture and that's what Ne does... Si over Ne on the other hand tends to want to focus on something specific and then it can expand on it from that point of focus.
> And the concern of identity and Fi is Fi ish itself.
> Also self-discovery is very much a part of the Fi process. You're always checking in with yourself and self referring to see how you're feeling about things as you go along and your morals are constantly changing and evolving as that is the focus of your life For some reason, people think that high Fi makes it so that you already have your identity defined and not at all, the self-discovery is a crucial part of it: Fi is constantly reinventing itself through the support of both Ne and Si as well. (The more "rigid" personal moral stance/identity alligns more for someone with high Te and low Fi, as Fi is not the focus of their lives.)
> The black and white thinking thing with Fi doesn't add up for me as well. Any IP is expansive by nature, they're constantly taking in new information into their world view. Fi also isn't separate from Te, so we're also constantly using and trying to find Te evidence to support our moral judgements as well.


Hey, please don't apologize. If anything I probably should, because I keep making new posts and probably overwhelming you with information 😄. I just want to be super clear about where I'm coming from so you all understand me as much as possible. I appreciate your insights, whenever they come. 

I have to say I relate to everything you've written, but I'm going to ponder your long response, too, and reply later when I've thought about it all. Thanks again!


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> Yes, this alligns with so 9, the chameleon. Though 6, 9 and 3 all have different types of struggles with identity: they can all be very adaptable especially 9 and 3. And also you're just a complex human being. But the focus on wanting to find your identity is Fi in itself.
> 
> Like I mentioned above, of course your values are bound to change over time and as you gain experience. That's just normal. And we all take from different sources when it comes to what we value. Sometimes our own personal values also allign with some cultural values too, so that's mot necessarily a sign of Fe. But feeling a gap between what you value and what people around you and being concerned about the fact that you don't care or do care about something is an Fi thing.
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha ha, I posted a while ago on the ISFJ subforum, asking if they could give opinions on whether I sounded like an ISFJ or not. So far no one has replied.  Maybe I should try again. I would love to hear from them.

Okay, I’m going to respond to things in order so I hopefully hit everything I want to and don’t have to come back and make another post:

You asked where I start when learning a new skill or hobby. I have a really hard time visualizing this. First of all, I’d have to be really interested in this skill to dive deep into it, which is what I normally do with things I’m interested in. (I rode horses for years, and when I was more obsessed/into them, I would pour through catalogs and read up on all the products, imagining different situations in which I might want to buy different things. I knew SO MUCH about products, riding styles, breeds, training, etc., because I was really into it.) So is this hobby something I have to learn, or something I would like to learn? Sorry to ask a question back to you, but this makes a difference to me.

I’m really bothered that it seems like I’m contradicting myself, or misrepresented myself, but I may have exaggerated that having plans/scheduling is very stressful for me. I mean, it’s not fun, and it’s a bit stressful, but not the worst thing ever. I tend to get overwhelmed by lots of information (sensory or not) coming at me at once, so if I suddenly have several appointments to juggle around, maybe I’ve double-booked or something, I can get very stressed.

I’m really trying to think of anything I do to make it not a stressful process…I do know I learn from the past to some extent (though doesn’t everyone?). Like I said, if I learn a new task (say, using a lawnmower), I tend to duplicate what I know works, because I know it’ll work and get the job done. But as far as processes that are stressful…I don’t really know. I just tend to schedule things, do what works, make sure everything is clear, so I can not have to think much about it anymore. (That doesn’t sound too healthy 😊). I have learned to put events on my phone calendar (it was recommended to me), which at first I hated (because I'm not a fan of technology), but it's been really helpful. I've learned to put several reminders, weeks out, so I don't forget about the appointment, and that's really helped. But other than that, I can't think of anything.

You saying your mom has “systems in place” made me laugh and wonder, “Systems? For laundry?” I do have some OC tendencies, so some things I need done _RIGHT_, but I wish I wasn’t that way so much—that’s all the result of intense anxiety. I’m not sure I relate to having systems for things. I just do them. I suppose still living at home could affect this too, but the times I’ve been on my own, I guess I just tend to do things, too. I mean, I plan: “Okay, right now I should do laundry, then I’ll work on my book, then I’ll take the dog for a walk.” But, systems? I just don’t know. I’m having a hard time comprehending what that means.

“the same clumsy mistake over and over again”—ah, yes, I do that a lot. Especially with more physical tasks I’m not that interested in—I don’t make the effort to remember what I did (although I try), and the next time, I’ll screw up again, and think, “Why don’t I learn from my mistakes?” But then I’ll make the same mistake again…

I suppose I do like incremental learning, although I’m not entirely sure what that means. I do tend to take my time learning something, if it’s something serious that needs to be done right, because I want to fully understand what I’m doing and not make a mistake. This especially applies when, say, someone might want advice—give me the details, give me all the details, lets me figure out what’s going on first and put it all together.

But some things I’ll catch on to right away; it just depends. I do love learning details about a topic, when I’m interested; e.g., I loved biology in high school and dove into the details, because I loved seeing how everything worked together (like an assembly line, cells are so cool), but didn’t like chemistry and couldn’t get myself to care much about it, except that I wanted to get a good grade. Sorry if I went off on another tangent, I’m trying to figure out what the heck incremental learning actually is. 😊

So I have been obsessing over my motivations lately, especially in group situations like the one I described. Here’s what I know for sure: often, when I ask someone, “Is this okay to you?” it’s because I don’t want that person to feel left out. Why? Because I’ve felt left out, and it’s no fun. It’s awful. I don’t want anyone else to experience that either. I want them to feel like they belong (like I want to feel like I belong). I want them to know someone sees them, and cares about them and their opinions. (Yep, because I want to feel that, too.)

Well, harmony is important for everyone’s mental health, I think, but if other people are okay not having harmony, then good for them. I guess what I really want in a group is to know what’s ideal for everyone, to know what other people value, so I can take that into consideration (and everyone can) so no one gets run over/forgotten in decisions.

Another example: if I say something and realize it might be offensive, I feel awful because I don’t want to be an offensive person, I want to be a kind person, I want others to know I’m kind and trustworthy and they can feel safe with me. And I don’t want to hurt that person. But if what I said wasn’t offensive (and wasn’t offensive to myself, obviously) then I won’t feel bad.

If I may use a more personal example: I’ve noticed this when I pray too (I’m very religious, it’s super important to me). When I was around 12/13 I realized that other people in the world were suffering a lot, and the most important thing to me became praying for individual peace. Besides everything else, I always pray that people have peace. Why? Because I know what it’s like to not have peace, and it’s awful. Even when you’re in pain, you can have peace in your soul. I want peace at that deep level (wow, that sound selfish!), and I want others to have that peace too, because ultimately that lasts longer and is more reliable than physical health.

I thought of this the other day as a potential example of Fi: a few years ago, some old friends of mine were planning for us to spend a few days at one of their parents’ cabin. We hung out every summer (we knew each other from elementary school), so getting together was important to us, and me (keeping up those friendships). But then I learned there was going to be alcohol, and I’d never spent time overnight with all of them together, and I didn’t know how they acted after drinking. I personally do not drink, never want to, and don’t feel comfortable around others who do, mostly from childhood trauma and family alcoholism. I’m fine if others drink, but I’ll remove myself from the situation. These friends likely weren’t going to go crazy, of course, but I couldn’t be sure, and I knew we were changing and growing apart, and most of all I just didn’t want to hang out with alcohol. So I didn’t go, even though they really wanted me to. And I felt bad, letting them down, but I just didn’t feel comfortable going. We all haven’t gotten together since, and I’m not really in contact with several of them anymore (and they don’t contact me), which makes me sad. I don’t know if this happened because I didn’t go that one time, but I don’t see why it had to. Anyway, I just didn’t feel comfortable.

I suppose that sounds more like inferior Ne, huh? But I do feel that that’s something I value highly (just myself). I just don’t like hanging around alcohol, even if people aren’t really getting drunk. The potential is there, and it just doesn’t sound like a good time to me.

“You might have trouble asserting yourself and valuing your own ideas and contributions”—you hit the nail on the head there. And I can say with confidence this is why I try to always include everyone, because I want them to know they’re valued and respected and appreciated.

“Part of you doesn’t want to believe you’re a Fi user”—got it again! Because of all the reasons you listed. Are you hacking into my brain?? 😊 I would hate for someone to say, “Stop thinking you’re so unique, you’re actually a Si dom,” and then I look like I don’t know what I’m talking about, and like I’ve been showing a false self/lying to others about my MBTI type. Also, I do want to be unique, though I don’t want that to get in the way of knowing who I really am. (And of course I know each person is unique, but really, it is exciting to think I might be an intuitive and in the minority. I hope this doesn’t sound superior, I really don’t want to sound that way.)

Yep, I understand what you’re saying in that second-to-last sentence. 😊 Makes complete sense. I’m really leaning toward INFP now, except the logical part of me says “Statistics don’t lie, and statistics say most people are sensors, so if you’re unsure, go with the most common!”

I’d still like to answer your question about learning a new skill/hobby, though.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

@vldrm Why do you say harmony means INFP? Just curious. Isn't harmony a Fe thing too?


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> I need to soak up more everything you have written @Through a Glass Darkly , to analyze it a little deeper, but as far as I have read, I can give some observations about some phrases that caught my attention and here’s my take on some of them:
> 
> “ I don’t consider myself a very practical person (as far as focus on bills, housing, clothing, etc.),” Not Se, not Te, .. sounds more like P kind of thing
> 
> ...


Well, everything you wrote makes sense to me (with the exception of me hating planning, lol, which I addressed above). Re: inferior Se, a few years ago when I took the 16personalities test, I tested both times as an INFJ, though I'm aware the tests aren't very reliable and are biased. Do you see any signs of Ni in me? I used to think I used it, but now I'm not so sure. I do relate to inferior Se somewhat, though.

I am really starting to realize that a lot of my motivation in social groups comes from a "Golden Rule" sort of thinking--"treat others the way you want to be treated," i.e. respectfully, with value. That's what I always strive to do, because I want others to value me, too.

Thanks for the film recommendation! I'll definitely have to check that out. I do find that I relate to a lot of supposedly-INFP characters. Then again I also relate to Beth March, who seems to be ISFJ.  I do find that I love Se-doms--they have an energy to them that is really appealing (and exhausting). They just seem so fun and present-oriented.

I'm hesitant to post any writing that I might try to publish, as posting on the web is technically "publishing," so I may post something a bit less polished. Is that okay? Would you like something that's been edited, or does it matter? I'm a bit nervous...


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## vldrm (Jun 17, 2021)

.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> Ni? yes I did found some of it when you were talking about how you figured out the maps and things related for your stories. That puzzle solving thinking that strike some of your commentaries is very Ni.
> 
> And I would add that that "Golden Rule" is something by which all personalities should abide by, independently of their type.
> 
> Definitely something that is unpolished and raw, direct from the craftsperson's hands, that's what I would like to read,I think that sometimes it adds to the genuineness of the work -- but I also say this so that the edited stuff you can save it for later for when you want to publish it in a more formal manner (which is also very genuine of course).


Ah, I see. Well, now I'm officially confused. I do relate to some Ni descriptions, but I'm not big into metaphors (consciously anyway), and the whole "hunch" thing baffles me.

I'm going to take some time to mull over my motivations. In the meantime, have some (very raw) writing (featuring characters in the novel I'm working on currently):

“What happened to yours arms?” Ali asks one night, lying close beside Gene on the floor of their room. They’re alone in the flat; Geoff, Des and Frank have gone out, likely to not just dance but find girls, on a rare night off from playing, and Ali and Gene are tired. More than that, they don’t want to go anywhere. Sometimes the others tease them about it, but mostly they understand. Tomorrow they’ll stay around the flat, listening to records and drinking tea and not doing much else, until their show.

But the flat is nice this way, quiet, and Ali and Gene prefer quiet. They were working on name designs and posters for the band, but they gave up early on, not really wanting to work much more. It would be nice to stop working at the factory, but the band just doesn’t bring in enough money. It probably never will. They can try.

Ali is now staring at Gene’s arms, the still-visible faint red lines and marks here and there. It’s unfortunate that Gene’s skin scars easily, and these scars, though significantly faded since their creation, will likely never entirely go away. He doesn’t usually wear short-sleeved shirts because of this. But around Ali, he feels he can be entirely himself. And Ali is eyeing the marks with gentleness, that peaceful curiosity, and maybe even concern.

“Long story,” Gene says, unsure how else to get to the heart of the matter. Ali, lying with his elbow holding him up, raises his eyebrows, and Gene grins.

“When I was younger—I just picked, sometimes. It was relaxing. Just finding something that wasn’t quite right, and trying to fix it. Or sometimes messing it up myself, just to have something to pick at. It was soothing.” It sounds bloody ridiculous now, and Gene hopes Ali won’t laugh, though it would be warranted. “Stupid. But it distracted me. From everything, I guess.”

Ali is quiet. Gene doesn’t know if he wants him to keep talking, so he says, “That’s why—my face too, you know. Not as much, since that’s more visible, but I did it there a bit, too.”

“Enough to scar,” Ali murmurs.

Gene doesn’t speak. He can feel the shame, lets it wash over him. He deserves it.

“Do you do that anymore?”

“No, no.”

“I’d think I’d have seen you.”

Gene turns. Ali lies flat on his back, staring at the ceiling, his face his usual serious but now too serious, bothered. Maybe he actually does care.

“I know it was stupid,” Gene says.

Ali makes an “mm” sound, like a question. “You’ve had a lot of crap, mate. Everybody deals with it somehow.”

He wasn’t condemning him, maybe. He was contemplating. Ali has never condemned him.

“At least it’s better now. I don’t do that anymore. I don’t have to step off with my right foot the way I used to have to. I couldn’t walk anywhere without thinking, and taking just the right step, the right length of stride, everything.” He smiles, partly because it seems ridiculous to him now, but more so because he is very glad that he doesn’t care about that anymore. “I don’t obsess about that stuff so much anymore.”

“That’s good,” Ali says, voice strong, meaning it.

“I’ve never told anyone about that before,” Gene says. “I always hope no one will ask.”

“You don’t have to answer,” Ali says.

“The others?”

“I think you could tell them. They know you. It wouldn’t change how they see you.”

“Wouldn’t it?”

“It’s not changed how I see you.”

Gene’s heart fills, that nearly-familiar sensation now, of his chest threatening to burst open, cutting off his breathing.

“You’re not them,” he says.

“Aye, but they’re you’re mates, right? I wouldn’t worry about it, Gene. It’s just a part of your past. If you can’t be honest with your mates, who can you be honest with?”

Of course. “Thanks,” Gene says. They’ve rolled to face each other, staring at each other. Ali’s blue eyes blink back at him, and the direct contact still scares Gene, but the gentleness keeps him still, holding on. “It’s good to be able to be honest.”

Ali smiles just barely, and Gene can’t think of anything to say even if he wanted to, that’s how powerful eye contact is. He never knew that, until he met Ali. He’d never looked at someone in the eye as much as he does Ali. He never knew that eye contact could actually make two people feel closer. That a person’s soul is revealed through their eyes.


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## vldrm (Jun 17, 2021)

.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

vldrm said:


> Before that I had finished reading "The Metamorphosis", let me tell you that it's a great contrast on the styles, for me Kafka's work was a real dry read for me, felt a NT vibe. Some say he was INFP but others say INTP. Well to me he writes like an INTP at least.


I'm sorry, this doesn't involve me, but I just have to say this because I'm a big Kafka fan. He was an infp, but that's something you can see in his letters and personal diary rather than in his formal work. 
He wrote novels that reflected a very cold/drab/harsh and even detached view of reality (which I think relates to his inferior Te, but I also see why it can be percieved as Ti ish because of that detachement), yet in his letters where he revealed more of his motivations snd personal struggles you can see that he was someone of a very emotional nature. He has a quote about books that I think explains why the contrast between his writings was so big: 
"I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound or stab us. If the book we're reading doesn't wake us up with a blow to the head, what are we reading for? So that it will make us happy, as you write? Good Lord, we would be happy precisely if we had no books, and the kind of books that make us happy are the kind we could write ourselves if we had to. But we need books that affect us like a disaster, that grieve us deeply, like the death of someone we loved more than ourselves, like being banished into forests far from everyone, like a suicide. A book must be the axe for the frozen sea within us. That is my belief."

That quote to me is mega Fi-Te. I think Kafka wrote about the reality that broke him in order to provoke those strong intense emotions in the reader (and i think he was successful at this: at least in me, the Metamorphosis provoked that exact feeling of grieving he describes in that quote; I cried for hours afterwards). I think he looked to intensify feelings.

So I think people can write in different styles and sometimes the way someone writes gives off the vibe of a certain type or of cognitive functions that aren't their own preferences. Writing and fiction allows someone to explore cognitive processes and write from perspectives that aren't their own or even explore processes that they don't use as much on a regular basis, right?


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

vldrm said:


> The other day I picked up randomly Gabriel Garcia Marquez' book "To live to tell the tale", read a few pages and I got a startling sensation that this guy was NF , looked up on the web and happens that he was an ENFP. Before that I had finished reading "The Metamorphosis", let me tell you that it's a great contrast on the styles, for me Kafka's work was a real dry read for me, felt a NT vibe. Some say he was INFP but others say INTP. Well to me he writes like an INTP at least.
> 
> Typing based on writing is not very accurate for me (yet) but I'm practicing. That's why I boldly asked for an excerpt of yours. Maybe it can give me ideas.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts (and for reading!). I will say I didn't think it was that detailed of a passage (compared to some writers who go into super-descriptive world details, ha ha, and I've been told I don't use enough detail in my writing), so your noticing all the details is interesting. So is your comments on Ni. I just don't know that I get Ni...some of it, yeah, but people talk about it like it helps them know the future. I'm not confident enough to say I could do something like that. I certainly don't get "hunches." 

I'm still going to keep track of my motivations for a while, see what I see. But ISFJ at least feels like a "safe" option, lol--I can just be a more theoretical one, maybe.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> I'm sorry, this doesn't involve me, but I just have to say this because I'm a big Kafka fan. He was an infp, but that's something you can see in his letters and personal diary rather than in his formal work.
> He wrote novels that reflected a very cold/drab/harsh and even detached view of reality (which I think relates to his inferior Te, but I also see why it can be percieved as Ti ish because of that detachement), yet in his letters where he revealed more of his motivations snd personal struggles you can see that he was someone of a very emotional nature. He has a quote about books that I think explains why the contrast between his writings was so big:
> "I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound or stab us. If the book we're reading doesn't wake us up with a blow to the head, what are we reading for? So that it will make us happy, as you write? Good Lord, we would be happy precisely if we had no books, and the kind of books that make us happy are the kind we could write ourselves if we had to. But we need books that affect us like a disaster, that grieve us deeply, like the death of someone we loved more than ourselves, like being banished into forests far from everyone, like a suicide. A book must be the axe for the frozen sea within us. That is my belief."
> 
> ...


I completely agree, although some part of the writer's functions may still come through. But yes, the fun of writing is trying on different personalities! I'm not sure how different this character's one is from mine, honestly. I was trying to write him very much like myself. 

I'm now leaning toward ISFJ. I wish this didn't matter so much to me! But now I'm confused about Fe, how it differs from Fi, because if I use Fi, then it looks a lot like Fe.

I guess I'll just keep observing myself. Of course I'd love to hear any other thoughts. Thank you for your help!


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> You asked where I start when learning a new skill or hobby. I have a really hard time visualizing this. First of all, I’d have to be really interested in this skill to dive deep into it, which is what I normally do with things I’m interested in. (I rode horses for years, and when I was more obsessed/into them, I would pour through catalogs and read up on all the products, imagining different situations in which I might want to buy different things. I knew SO MUCH about products, riding styles, breeds, training, etc., because I was really into it.) So is this hobby something I have to learn, or something I would like to learn? Sorry to ask a question back to you, but this makes a difference to me


Ok, all of that sounds like Ne and hyperfixation to me. Did you eventually get tired of that hobby or has the passion been consistent? 
I'm asking about something that you would like to learn. What would the process of learning it entail? Would you maybe wanna recieve a class or would you prefer to teach yourself? Would you buy a book or manual? Stuff like that.


Through a Glass Darkly said:


> So I have been obsessing over my motivations lately, especially in group situations like the one I described. Here’s what I know for sure: often, when I ask someone, “Is this okay to you?” it’s because I don’t want that person to feel left out. Why? Because I’ve felt left out, and it’s no fun. It’s awful. I don’t want anyone else to experience that either. I want them to feel like they belong (like I want to feel like I belong). I want them to know someone sees them, and cares about them and their opinions. (Yep, because I want to feel that, too.)
> 
> Well, harmony is important for everyone’s mental health, I think, but if other people are okay not having harmony, then good for them. I guess what I really want in a group is to know what’s ideal for everyone, to know what other people value, so I can take that into consideration (and everyone can) so no one gets run over/forgotten in decisions.
> 
> Another example: if I say something and realize it might be offensive, I feel awful because I don’t want to be an offensive person, I want to be a kind person, I want others to know I’m kind and trustworthy and they can feel safe with me. And I don’t want to hurt that person. But if what I said wasn’t offensive (and wasn’t offensive to myself, obviously) then I won’t feel bad.


Ok, those are all Fi motivations, not Fe. You're thinking about your own personal ideals and motivations and applying them. And you're respectful and mindful of everyone else's ideals ("if they're okay with that, than good for them"). The last one is especially Fi. Hopefully you understand why, but if you want me to elaborate, let me know.
.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> guess I'll just keep observing myself. Of course I'd love to hear any other thoughts. Thank you for your help!


Well that's the most important thing in the end. That you are convinced, even if you have to explore a bunch of different possibilities for a while until you reach a conclusion that feels right.

Also, I'll explain what i meant with the systems thing later that my dad's partner does later, because it could be important.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Also, there's a a long comment by drosk under the thread that i made last year about typing myself. I think that could be helpful to you too.

I think you should also look at thinking functions, see which one alligns more with you and which one you understand better.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> Also, there's a a long comment by drosk under the thread that i made last year about typing myself. I think that could be helpful to you too.
> 
> I think you should also look at thinking functions, see which one alligns more with you and which one you understand better.


I remember reading that comment, but not what it said, so I'll go back and look. Thanks!

Well, see, now I'm confused with the thinking functions. 😄 I always thought I relate to Ti. I can see Te in myself though, too. But I feel like Ti might be stronger (I like to discuss things logically, that make sense to me, and try to show why I believe what I do in a rational way). But I also like facts, because they're proof/evidence, and make my view even stronger, which seems more Te-related. Anyway I lean toward Ti...but I could be wrong.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> Ok, all of that sounds like Ne and hyperfixation to me. Did you eventually get tired of that hobby or has the passion been consistent?
> I'm asking about something that you would like to learn. What would the process of learning it entail? Would you maybe wanna recieve a class or would you prefer to teach yourself? Would you buy a book or manual? Stuff like that.
> 
> Ok, those are all Fi motivations, not Fe. You're thinking about your own personal ideals and motivations and applying them. And you're respectful and mindful of everyone else's ideals ("if they're okay with that, than good for them"). The last one is especially Fi. Hopefully you understand why, but if you want me to elaborate, let me know.
> .


Yes, I understand what you mean. Thank you.

Re: the hobbies--thank you for the clarification!--yes, I did get tired of the hobby. I rode horses for about ten years, but about seven years into it, I lost a lot of interest. One day it just...felt like work, not fun. Like I had to do it, not like I wanted to. The same happened with piano, and guitar. So I stopped doing those things--because they felt like work, not fun.

Hyperfixation? That's me!

So, if I was learning a new hobby, if it was something I could do by myself, I might want to teach myself, but with the added help of a teacher. Like, looking up YouTube videos of experts teaching, and supplementing that with my own reading of articles, and practicing (I tend to learn best when I'm able to do things myself, not just watch others do them or read about it). I would read all about the basics, and then probably start thinking ahead to what I would most like about it, and what I would most like to focus on. But I'd force myself to learn all the details if they were needed, to give myself a solid foundation.  I do tend to defer to experts a lot, and I like the structure and guidance they give--although sometimes I can make my own structure, if I'm really invested and feel confident. A few years ago I tried to teach myself jazz piano, because I love that style of playing and I'm a fairly good piano player, and I was somewhat structured about it, watched videos daily, kept a notebook with details I thought were important...for a few months. Then I got busy, and lost interest--it was too much mental energy and starting to feel like something I "had" to do again.

Thanks for your thoughts on Fi vs. Fe. I just keep thinking that I might be skewing my answers to sound more Fi-like, because I want to be an INFP. I know I'm obsessing, but it just seems more likely I'm an ISFJ (statistically), so I don't want to assume anything. Does that make any sense? I really don't want to be making myself sound a certain way, but I sometimes wonder if I don't do that, make myself sound a way I want to, even if I really am not that not way. I relate to so much of Fe, except a very few things. I just can't know if I'm being honest in how I portray myself.

Thanks again!


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> know I'm obsessing, but it just seems more likely I'm an ISFJ (statistically), so I don't want to assume anything.


I don't know which statistics you are citing. I've heard this claim around the internet, but i think it's very questionable (can those statistics take into account that some people can mistype themselves? Not really.) I don't think that's a good thing to base your typing on/a good way to type yourself. 
I understand that you don't want to assume anything though.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> I don't know which statistics you are citing. I've heard this claim around the internet, but i think it's very questionable (can those statistics take into account that some people can mistype themselves? Not really.) I don't think that's a good thing to base your typing on/a good way to type yourself.
> I understand that you don't want to assume anything though.


Good point. I should look into the validity of those stats. Do you think Si-doms can have fairly developed Ne?

One more thing: I'll tend to say, "I'm sorry" to people when they're going through a hard time, because I've learned it's polite and because I am sorry that person is hurting. And I tend to nod, be fairly expressive with my face, say "uh huh" etc. to show I'm engaged. Does this mean anything at all to you? Just curious, then I'll stop bothering you.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Good point. I should look into the validity of those stats. Do you think Si-doms can have fairly developed Ne?
> 
> One more thing: I'll tend to say, "I'm sorry" to people when they're going through a hard time, because I've learned it's polite and because I am sorry that person is hurting. And I tend to nod, be fairly expressive with my face, say "uh huh" etc. to show I'm engaged. Does this mean anything at all to you? Just curious, then I'll stop bothering you.


They can have developed Ne throughout their life I'm sure, but it's gonna look different than the way a high Ne user uses it. Also it is for sure gonna be present, because Si-Ne work together, I think it's helpful to look at them together as well. 

Just means you want to make the other person feel that they're being listened to. They're just gestures to help communicate to that person that you care and maybe console them. I don't know if it points to a specific function, other than maybe feeling in general. 

If you have any more questions or anything, you can also PM me! I'll be happy to discuss them with you. There are some things I didn't answer yet either, so I might send you one myself later. Either way, good luck with everything!! Don't get too stressed out, self-typing can take time.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

mosquitosoup said:


> They can have developed Ne throughout their life I'm sure, but it's gonna look different than the way a high Ne user uses it. Also it is for sure gonna be present, because Si-Ne work together, I think it's helpful to look at them together as well.
> 
> Just means you want to make the other person feel that they're being listened to. They're just gestures to help communicate to that person that you care and maybe console them. I don't know if it points to a specific function, other than maybe feeling in general.
> 
> If you have any more questions or anything, you can also PM me! I'll be happy to discuss them with you. There are some things I didn't answer yet either, so I might send you one myself later. Either way, good luck with everything!! Don't get too stressed out, self-typing can take time.


Thank you so much for your perspective and help. I might message you, and in the meantime keep trying to observe myself; it's harder than I thought! Thank you again


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## ImminentThunder (May 15, 2011)

This is a tricky one for sure. I don’t think you’re ISFJ, but I could be wrong. I still think INFP, or maybe INFJ.

how would you organize your function stack, or order didn’t matter? For example people say that you can’t have both Ti and Fi, but if we ignore stuff like that, what would be your functional stacking order? Even if it contradicts Jung —which ones do you relate to the most and the least?


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

ImminentThunder said:


> This is a tricky one for sure. I don’t think you’re ISFJ, but I could be wrong. I still think INFP, or maybe INFJ.
> 
> how would you organize your function stack, or order didn’t matter? For example people say that you can’t have both Ti and Fi, but if we ignore stuff like that, what would be your functional stacking order? Even if it contradicts Jung —which ones do you relate to the most and the least?


I wish it was easier to answer your quesion--I'm not entirely sure how well I understand the functions. I've read so much and observed others and myself and I've gotten a bit confused. There seem to be different interpretations (or maybe that's just in my head!). But I'll give it a shot. Just be aware that I am not entirely certain in my knowledge of the functions. 

In order from the ones I relate to the most, to the least:

Fe
Fi (not sure about this placement)
Ne
Si
Ni (I'm not sure on this, could possibly switch this with Si)
Ti
Te
Se

I know for sure that Te and Se are the ones I relate to least. Though I do enjoy being efficient. 

I'm sorry for being so unsure, but I hope that's helpful.


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

I've also realized that much of what I do is motivated by the desire to not be rejected. The last thing I want to do is upset a person and cause them to get annoyed and reject/abandon me. I think this has more to do with Enneagram, but I want to point it out as it affects much, if not most, of my motivations when dealing with people.


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## goodvibe (Aug 23, 2013)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> I think this has more to do with Enneagram





Through a Glass Darkly said:


> The last thing I want to do is upset a person and cause them to get annoyed and reject/abandon me.


All of that is textbook Enneagram type 6. This enneagram is strongly_ correlated _with Si doms (ISXJ) but this does not necessarily mean this is your type.



Through a Glass Darkly said:


> In order from the ones I relate to the most, to the least:
> 
> Fe
> Fi (not sure about this placement)
> ...


I agree with you about Te and Se, and those are not in your front stack. It seems you are a cross between an INFP and ISFJ, which would be close to INFJ in a big 5, letter dichotomy sense, but technically you would still be an ISFJ because you are leading with Si.

Keep in mind, introverted functions are the hardest to detect...even your leading one. I don't think it can be Ni, because Ni is usually vague, yet direct. And your not Ti, or else you would be an INTP (my type BTW). I think Fe is in front of Ti. You seem to be about 75% Fe, and 25% Fi, so for a feeler type this is nothing out of the ordinary. When I first read your answers, you were Fi at the beginning and then Fe all the way down from there.

As far as cognitive stacks, there are no hard rules that they MUST be in some predetermined order fixed throughout your life...are the MBTI gods enforcing them on your psyche? Of course not. So, maybe you are something like Si, Fe, Ne, Ti or even Si, Ne, Fe, Ti. Again, I like the cognitive function stack theory in that I believe there are 4 main functions, with 2 pairs working together. However, I do not believe inferior / auxillary functions must always be in order; yes, they best represent the archetypes...but how many people are perfect representations of the archetypes? Very few. Also, the mind does not fully develop until mid-20s, and auxiliary functions continue to develop. Environment plays a huge role too.

As I mentioned before, we don't even know how many fiction authors are actually ISFJ...my thinking is that there are more than you think because Si/Ne, Fe/Ti is very suitable for that. Although they are fairly represented, INFPs are prob not even the dominant type for fiction writing,









​


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

goodvibe said:


> All of that is textbook Enneagram type 6. This enneagram is strongly_ correlated _with Si doms (ISXJ) but this does not necessarily mean this is your type.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good points. I definitely lead with Si? I wasn't so sure about that. Ive realized I use a decent amount of Ne, and really like it. But I like to think the stacks aren't set in stone, like you said. Although then, how can we type anybody?

Thanks for weighing in!


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## goodvibe (Aug 23, 2013)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Very good points. *I definitely lead with Si*? I wasn't so sure about that. I've realized I use a decent amount of Ne, and really like it. But I like to think the stacks aren't set in stone, like you said. *Although then, how can we type anybody?*
> 
> Thanks for weighing in!


With detectable Si, and sheer process of elimination....I think so...although as an INTP, I have a hard time committing 100% to anything. Definitely is not usually in our vocabulary, lol.

It is still relatively easy to type someone based upon their leading function...and then knowing if their mental processing is using Ti, Te, etc. It is a little trickier to see with introverted doms because the function is not expressing itself in an extraverted manner. The leading function is pretty much fixed, unless there is some major, life-altering event that makes another function take over — but, that would take many years to happen. I think your Fe is most likely your leading extraverted function (as you yourself feel most identified with). This means your Ti is below that in your front stack (thus, you can't be leading with Ti). You use Ti, but not lead with it. 

If Fe or even Ne is your top extraverted function (2nd slot), then Si would have to be your primary function because there are no other places for it to go. There are no other introverted functions you can possibly be leading with, because we already eliminated Ni and Ti as possibilities. If you are leading Ni, you would also have Se, and not Si, but we see Si and not Se. And, you would have an Ni /Se communication style.

You can still type someone with certainty because in the conscious mind there are only 4 functions, 2 extraverted and 2 introverted (and they work in pairs). In other words, you can't be Fi, Fe, Te, Ti or something weird like that, unless maybe you are extremely young, like a child. Your typing comes from your leading function along with 3 lower functions (which the order is not as important with the lower 3).


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## Through a Glass Darkly (May 10, 2021)

goodvibe said:


> With detectable Si, and sheer process of elimination....I think so...although as an INTP, I have a hard time committing 100% to anything. Definitely is not usually in our vocabulary, lol.
> 
> It is still relatively easy to type someone based upon their leading function...and then knowing if their mental processing is using Ti, Te, etc. It is a little trickier to see with introverted doms because the function is not expressing itself in an extraverted manner. The leading function is pretty much fixed, unless there is some major, life-altering event that makes another function take over — but, that would take many years to happen. I think your Fe is most likely your leading extraverted function (as you yourself feel most identified with). This means your Ti is below that in your front stack (thus, you can't be leading with Ti). You use Ti, but not lead with it.
> 
> ...


Okay, I understand what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. Definitely is not in my vocabulary either, lol.

Just a thought (to throw out a different perspective): in talking to some others, I've realized that sometimes Fi can look like Fe, and wonder if I couldn't lead with Fi. I realize my Si is strong, but as I'm in my mid-20s, couldn't I be developing my tertiary function about now? Just curious.

I was pondering ESFJ too, not because I think I fit there, but the functions fit...Ne higher, Fe coming first. But I don't think I'm a cognitive extrovert. Thoughts?

I have never heard someone described as between one type and another. Does this mean I can go around saying I'm an INFP AND an ISFJ? How exciting. 😄


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## goodvibe (Aug 23, 2013)

Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Okay, I understand what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. Definitely is not in my vocabulary either, lol.
> 
> Just a thought (to throw out a different perspective): in talking to some others, I've realized that sometimes Fi can look like Fe, and wonder if I couldn't lead with Fi. I realize my Si is strong, but as I'm in my mid-20s, couldn't I be developing my tertiary function about now? Just curious.
> 
> ...


You express with way too much Ti to be Fi. I can see the difference.

I considered ESFJ too, but then you would show more signs of extroversion. With that, you would still be Si/Ne though. 



Through a Glass Darkly said:


> Does this mean I can go around saying I'm an INFP AND an ISFJ? How exciting. 😄


Look back a few years ago, and everyone was typing themselves with an X or lower case letter, so you would be IXFJ, or InFJ, IsFJ. The collective narrative of what is and isn't acceptable always changes. 

In my mind, I often type people as hybrids. So, even myself, I feel like I am an INTP/INFJ hybrid because I was born with lots of Ni, and as a young child I was extremely intuitive in general. As I got older, and my mind fully developed, I have slowly lost much of my Ni. I also hear some of the INFJs speak, and I see myself in them too. But, I must realize I am a thinking type first and foremost. I have some J qualities for sure but in my natural state...I am totally an INTP. Now, my leading function is Ti, so technically I am an INTP..but in my mind, I know that I am some hybrid form, and all that matters is what I know myself to be, not other people. 

I mean, what does it matter what anyone identifies you as. Someone with 3rd slot Ti out there may outperform even me on a Ti loaded test, if they are in an environment that fosters that side of them. My cousin is a computer programmer, not me. He is an ISFJ. Having that Si has brought him stability in his life that I don't have. My Ne can get out of control sometimes as I am always chasing that rabbit, and then lose sight of it as another one appears. I also get bogged down in analysis paralysis, seeing too many options being unable to decide on one.

Some functions are easier to develop than others BTW, Ti being one of them, but I digress. But, don't ever think that because technically you are leading with Si that you can't be highly intuitive as well.


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## mosquitosoup (Nov 5, 2020)

goodvibe said:


> You express with way too much Ti.


Where do you see Ti??


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## goodvibe (Aug 23, 2013)

mosquitosoup said:


> Where do you see Ti??


Everywhere, except a few places in her questionnaire going back whenever that was


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