# Judgers vs. Perceivers (in the cognitive function sense)



## allisreal (Mar 23, 2010)

So in the four letter type code being a J vs. P boils down to which function of your top two functions, the Judging or Perceiving, has an extraverted orientation. I've seen a lot of J vs. P comparisons, but only based around what that last letter is in the type code. If we are classifying types as J and P strictly according to whether one's dominant function is Judging (Je and Ji) or Perceiving (Pe and Pi), what are the commonalities? How does the experience of being a dominant Judger (EJ or IP) differ from the experience of being a dominant Perceiver (EP or IJ)? I'm just curious because I haven't really seen any information grouping all Judging functions (Te, Fe, Ti, and Fi) and all Perceiving functions (Se, Ne, Si, and Ni), then contrasting the two categories solely based on their positions as dominant functions, which are the most influential on one's personality.

All input is appreciated...


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Well you hit at the underlying problem with identifying people based on judging/perceiving dichotomies. Because the MBTI paradigm is built solely around extraverted functions, its kind of hard for people to wrap their heads around the fact that IPs might have more in common with EJs than they do IJs. This gets further problematic when temperamental designations like Kiersey get added in the mix, when in fact an ENTP might functionally be closer to ENFP (or even ESFJ) than ENTJ. 

IJs and EPs are truly perception-oriented types. In fact both the dominant and inferior functions in IJ/EP are perceiving functions, so the entire spine of self (as Beebe might call it) is perception oriented in these types, with judging influencing their relations to others.


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## Obsidian (Aug 10, 2011)

IJs may be perception-oriented, but that isn't what being a Perceiver means. Being a Perceiver means that your judgments are more "introverted" than extraverted. So an INTP might make tons of rational judgments all the time, compared to an INTJ, but the INTJ is still more outwardly logical, making him a Judger. I think the INTP basically makes more judgments in the sense that he keeps on critiquing his positions over time, whereas the Judger will make up his mind and be less likely to re-examine the issue. And also, extraverted Thinking relies more on authority from consensus and precedent.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Obsidian said:


> IJs may be perception-oriented, but that isn't what being a Perceiver means. Being a Perceiver means that your judgments are more "introverted" than extraverted. So an INTP might make tons of rational judgments all the time, compared to an INTJ, but the INTJ is still more outwardly logical, making him a Judger. I think the INTP basically makes more judgments in the sense that he keeps on critiquing his positions over time, whereas the Judger will make up his mind and be less likely to re-examine the issue. And also, extraverted Thinking relies more on authority from consensus and precedent.


The issue here is that MBTI uses Extraverted Functions as the basis for judgment and perception and in that paradigm, as you stated, only Extraverted Judgment gets called 'judgment.' But in terms of actual cognition that's untrue. This is one of the reasons why newer philosophies like Socionics discounts J and P in the type code because its misleading. 

Once we step out of the MBTI paradigm an INTJ is a dominant perceiver. Period. The ego complex of an INTJ is built around intuition not thinking. It doesn't matter how their auxiliary Te shows up because it is still auxiliary. The second function in introverts. It doesn't carry near the weight or cognitive power as the dominant function (in any type), it simply is the first function that is visible to the world, but Aux-Te in INTJ (or ISTJ) is not going to carry the same cognitive weight as dominant Te in ETJs (and if you believe Berens, the auxiliary in many people is underdeveloped to boot). It's kind of like a person whose right arm has been amputated. It doesn't mean that person is now left-handed even though use of the left hand is all we can observe.

If it was really the case that the second function was strong enough to change J/P dichotomy as MBTI claims, then ISFJ and INFJ should come across as extraverts very similar to Fe-doms. Myers built the type code around extraverted functions, in part, because they're observable, where introverted functions do not have an outward manifestation. But with introverts placing emphasis on the auxiliary can be highly misleading because the J/P label is assigned to a secondary function that is often significantly weaker than the dominant function (which the person's ego and persona are built around).


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Over and above all that, there is another main factor. Judgers are not comfortable until a decision is made and action taken. For Perceivers on the other hand making decisions equals closing all options ... they prefer to moot ideas longer allowing for further input. I was in a relationship with an`P` and we drove each other mad over one element and that was making arrangements. I like to know a week ahead what is happening he wanted to keep plans open!


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

I hadn`t heard of Socionics before and have just done the test. It is spot on with this (I identify with most all of it):

INTjs have a characteristic ascetic face. There are two reason for this. Firstly the facial structure itself is often reminiscent of ancient portraits because of its angularity and composition of the features, like cheekbone and eyebrow arcs. Secondly their facial expression is often accepted as emotionless and severe. Their face is usually pale or bloodless. Males often have a short haircut. 

In many cases INTjs are slim. Their stomach is usually placed ahead of the chest giving them their characteristic posture. Their gait is somewhat unsure, wavering slightly. _Sometimes it seems like they are not sure where they are going._ This becomes more obvious in moments of excitement. Their clothes are not usually very striking. INTjs do not like to attract excessive attention to themselves and most of the time they stick to simple clothes, often wearing the same style and composition for a long time. 

INTjs behave in a very self-restrained manner with strangers, never showing initiative first and always maintaining a long psychological distance. Their speech is very clear and logical and they always follow a logical progression. They also have a tendency to emphasise key words. When defending their concepts and ideas during a confrontation their logic can become solid and absolute. They cut out all irrelevant details that may cloud the argument. 

Although the first impression of INTjs is that they are emotionless, when they become inspired during conversation an emotionality previously unseen begins to emerge. Their eyes start flashing with a fanatic light and their passion increases as the conversation progresses. However, they still try to maintain their self-control. INTjs sustain conversations only if they find them interesting. They prefer to keep silent rather than give an opinion on a subject to which they are indifferent. 

INTjs always give others a chance to say what they need to say. They consider that everyone has got talents and they try at least not to interfere. They do not refuse any proposals immediately, preferring to examine them first. INTjs are _very reserved and usually do not take the initiative in talking about their interests and private life_. This can lead others to think that they have no private life at all. 

INTjs have a very characteristic tendency to independence and can only accept a whole freedom. In work matters they combine their need for freedom with a feeling of responsibility. INTjs are not very demanding. They are often indifferent to food and its presentation. It can be simple but must be fresh. When involved in something interesting they can completely forget that they need to eat. In everyday matters INTjs are modest and are happy to have a minimum degree of comfort. 

INTjs usually have an interest that stays with them for a long time and are absolutely indifferent to what others say about it. They never endorse their position in life. INTjs live in a world of their own conception. They simply ignore rules, concepts and directives that do not suit them. Most people do not understand INTjs and try to keep away from them. 

*The gait typing has some resonance but I do stand confidentally (but can`t balance on one leg). Also I often take the initiative - can`t just stand by and see c**p going off or watch when action is needed! But specifically do not talk about my private life - not relevant and nobody`s business!*

₪₪₪ Socionics - The New Psychology ₪₪₪


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

It says this as well lol Absolutely brilliant I`m grinning away, totally me!:

INTj uncovered 

If there were Weirdness Olympics between all 16 types then INTj would be an unbeatable gold medallist. In fact INTjs are so weird that they do not just appear weird to people who don't know them, but to other INTjs as well. This is because INTjs take little or no notice of what other people think. What they think themselves is much more important to INTjs. That is why if everybody is certain that bridges have to be built across the river, an INTj may contemplate the possibility of building one along the river. There would probably be a logical reason for that since INTjs view everything through the square prism of logic. And as long as logical rules are obeyed everything is fine.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

RRRoooaaaRRR said:


> Over and above all that, there is another main factor. Judgers are not comfortable until a decision is made and action taken. For Perceivers on the other hand making decisions equals closing all options ... they prefer to moot ideas longer allowing for further input. I was in a relationship with an`P` and we drove each other mad over one element and that was making arrangements. I like to know a week ahead what is happening he wanted to keep plans open!


I agree, what you said is correct. All evidence I have seen so far confirms the observation.


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