# What annoys you in a relationship? (vent)



## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> What annoys me?
> 
> Me, myself & I.


One of those guys is the third wheel. That's your problem. Get rid of one of 'em.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Veggie said:


> I don't think you can really speak this as truth. _Family_ oriented men probably want women they can see as family, and whom they genuinely love. "Marriage oriented" isn't necessarily synonymous with this.


Fair enough. When I think marriage oriented, I also think family oriented because to me, the purpose of marriage is to start a family.



> I wish I hadn't deleted my argument now that I'm really reading this over. I've been on at least a tad of a bender after a cleanse (like a true hedonist chick )... which is why I usually avoid them. I just remembered defending 'Murica and deleted everything without even reading it over in annoyance with myself. Tbh, sometimes I do it on purpose to pull the strings of all the extremely hateful racists (they're _obsessed_ with race and nationalism, etc - explain to me how that's being enlightened, loving, and moving past it?) who project and call everyone else one for my own amusement, but I do legitimately want to defend this awful innovative place sometimes too.


I believe in your freedom to do as you like, but I truly disagree with that lifestyle. Sex should be a means to connect with the right person and every time you do that with someone who isn't the right person, you're only taking the spirituality out of sex and devaluing yourself. I don't know what your personal experience has been, nor am I a woman, but I get the impression that a lot of Western women in particular grow up with this sort of masculine attitude where it's woman versus the world and the more she "experiences life" and is "independent", the more of a "successful" person she is. I think one of the spiritual aspects that makes a woman amazing is her ability to inspire a man to be the best version of himself. Maybe men inspire women too, I'm not entirely sure. Has a man ever made you feel more like a woman, a queen, a goddess? I've certainly felt from some women such a sense of femininity, that it really makes me aware of just how much of a man I am. It's refreshing and It saddens me to see so many women engage in such degenerate behavior. Don't get me wrong, men are just as horrible. Every woman that I've ever been involved with has told me how horrible some men are and some of the horror stories they've had. I wish people in general would ascribe to a more simplistic, spiritual outlook on life: Build a virtuous life, find a suitable man or woman, get married, have kids, be happy and pass on good values to those kids so that when they grow up, they can have the ability to navigate this world and be happy as well.

I think there is a lot to love about America, despite all the hate it gets. We have values worth protecting, a history, a culture, art, music, &c. I hate to see our country go down such a bad path and I truly see the way forward is for people to disconnect themselves from this internet world of media, news, &c. and just focus on being good people in the real world. We get too wrapped up in nothingness.



> Anyway, if you're associating women in the west with plenty of opportunities for hedonism and consumerism, then how is this an argument against my saying that maybe we have the power to be choosier? Are you sure that other women wouldn't be with the same options? Are you sure that virtue isn't just rationalization for the hand they've been dealt?


Well, I believe that because women (really people in general) in the West tend to be more hedonistic, that in the end, they actually have less choices in suitable husbands. As i mentioned earlier, a family-oriented man will want a woman he can trust, one that isn't hedonistic and impulsive. If a woman has a past with a large amount of sexual partners, to me, that signals that she doesn't have self control, that she may have bad judgement, and worse of all that she may not be faithful in the future. After all, if she was willing to have sex with all these other guys, then who's not to say that she will if another guy comes along while we're married?

Other signs that a woman is undesirable for marriage is debt, tattoos, smoking, drinking, &c. because these are all activities done by hedonists, people with impulsive behavior, &c. In the past, we knew and accepted this as a culture which is why older women would generally keep their daughters from engaging in these activities, but then our culture began to deteriorate, and these activities became "cool".

Yes, I think most of our beliefs are just rationalizations for the hand we've been dealt. I personally have not engaged in any the mentioned degenerate behavior (actually once and it's something I regret and will not be doing again), so it's easy for me to sit on my moral high ground and dictate that others should be as "holy" as me. I recognize that. I know it's not fair of me, but ultimately when it comes to finding a partner, that's what I want. Someone who shares those same deeply held values and beliefs. Someone I can fully connect with on that level you know?

I find it so sad to see a lot of these ladies and gentlemen so lost and unfulfilled because they just weren't given the traditional wisdom from their mothers and fathers.


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## Robert2928 (Apr 6, 2012)

What annoys me in a relationship? When they won't leave you alone. I mean it's friday night I wanna get on my PS4 and play online with strangers and eat pizza...not go on a date with someone I already been on dates with. Eww.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

Denature said:


> Fair enough. When I think marriage oriented, I also think family oriented because to me, the purpose of marriage is to start a family.
> 
> 
> I believe in your freedom to do as you like, but I truly disagree with that lifestyle. Sex should be a means to connect with the right person and every time you do that with someone who isn't the right person, you're only taking the spirituality out of sex and devaluing yourself. I don't know what your personal experience has been, nor am I a woman, but I get the impression that a lot of Western women in particular grow up with this sort of masculine attitude where it's woman versus the world and the more she "experiences life" and is "independent", the more of a "successful" person she is. I think one of the spiritual aspects that makes a woman amazing is her ability to inspire a man to be the best version of himself. Maybe men inspire women too, I'm not entirely sure. Has a man ever made you feel more like a woman, a queen, a goddess? I've certainly felt from some women such a sense of femininity, that it really makes me aware of just how much of a man I am. It's refreshing and It saddens me to see so many women engage in such degenerate behavior. Don't get me wrong, men are just as horrible. Every woman that I've ever been involved with has told me how horrible some men are and some of the horror stories they've had. I wish people in general would ascribe to a more simplistic, spiritual outlook on life: Build a virtuous life, find a suitable man or woman, get married, have kids, be happy and pass on good values to those kids so that when they grow up, they can have the ability to navigate this world and be happy as well.
> ...


Before I waste my time with reading through this, I have to ask - are you a virgin? And if so, how old are you?

Because if you are, and you're older than like 25, I doubt I'm going to get anything out of whatever supposed wisdom (aka life experience) you think you have.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

AnneM said:


> One of those guys is the third wheel. That's your problem. Get rid of one of 'em.


Working on it.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Denature said:


> Women from countries where hedonism isn't promoted through media probably end up being more naturally feminine and traditional.





Denature said:


> I wish people in general would ascribe to a more simplistic, spiritual outlook on life: Build a virtuous life, find a suitable man or woman, get married, have kids, be happy and pass on good values to those kids so that when they grow up, they can have the ability to navigate this world and be happy as well.


I think it's really interesting that you pair feminine and traditional. To me, sensuality and some degree of hedonism are inextricably linked with femininity, because it is very much (as experienced within myself, anyway) a sex-influenced drive, and while sex _can_ occur in the framework of marriage and family, it's a drive is quite separate of that. Humans are k-selected biologically - we have few young both overall and at a time, we raise them for a long time, we put a lot of resources into them, and we have long lifespans on average. Our sex drives are really just designed to get us to reproduction, not to sustain us through child-rearing and beyond, and sex is an inherently risky behavior. I don't think that means femininity and traditionalism _can't_ go together - in fact, I'm rather fond of the picture when it does - but we have to have a sprinkling of hedonism and counter-traditionality or we'll never get to sex at all. 

Additionally... I appreciated your description of how a woman in her element can make you feel like a better man, and agree that a supportive man can make me feel like a princess/goddess/etc. - _however_, I don't feel elevated only by male attention, but also by taking care of myself, by excelling in my talents, and around other supportive women as well, and I think that's really important as well. 

All of this is to say that I think your view is certainly a workable way of life, and I respect its wholesomeness and cleanliness, but I don't think it's going to work for everyone nor that it needs to for us to have a relatively happy, healthy society. We need counter-measures like antiauthoritarianism and hedonism to ensure that power structures don't get too top-heavy, as they are wont to do, to ensure that the majorities and those born into power and resources don't just always keep them, to ensure that the genetic pools stay diverse and ever-changing, and to ensure that humans still have that raw sense of drive and passion and desire that plunges us forward into creating worlds anew.


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

angelfish said:


> I think it's really interesting that you pair feminine and traditional. To me, sensuality and some degree of hedonism are inextricably linked with femininity, because it is very much (as experienced within myself, anyway) a sex-influenced drive, and while sex _can_ occur in the framework of marriage and family, it's a drive is quite separate of that. Humans are k-selected biologically - we have few young both overall and at a time, we raise them for a long time, we put a lot of resources into them, and we have long lifespans on average. Our sex drives are really just designed to get us to reproduction, not to sustain us through child-rearing and beyond, and sex is an inherently risky behavior. I don't think that means femininity and traditionalism _can't_ go together - in fact, I'm rather fond of the picture when it does - but we have to have a sprinkling of hedonism and counter-traditionality or we'll never get to sex at all.


Yes, to me: feminine and traditional is linked. I think maybe our definitions of hedonism are a bit different. I don't find smoking, drugs, tattoos, or sexual promiscuity to be innately feminine characteristics, so I don't see this innate link between femininity and hedonism. If there is such a link, then I'd imagine there is a link between hedonism and masculinity and thus hedonism isn't a sex-linked characteristic at all.

I think I understand what you mean when you say that femininity is a sex-influenced drive and I agree. Women behave femininely to attract a good man for reproductive purposes and of course such a feminine woman would want to have sex with the right man. I don't find that hedonistic though. I think that's just nature. What I find detrimental to femininity is when women are promiscuous and deny their nature for the "virtues" of "freedom" (Ah yes, the freedom to ruin your marriageability by sleeping with guys and enjoying your sexual "liberation"). A woman's "sexual liberation" is rather sexual slavery to her worst base desires for sexual gratification. There's no freedom in that at all. Essentially, yes, femininity is inherently sexual, but not everything sexual is hedonistic.

As for needing counter-tradition, I can see where that makes sense. Maybe a sprinkling is ok, but officially, it shouldn't be endorsed as heavily as it is. We have much more than a sprinkling and the more we allow, the more that hedonism will grow. So I'll agree that a little bit is ok, but officially, it's not ok.



angelfish said:


> Additionally... I appreciated your description of how a woman in her element can make you feel like a better man, and agree that a supportive man can make me feel like a princess/goddess/etc. - _however_, I don't feel elevated only by male attention, but also by taking care of myself, by excelling in my talents, and around other supportive women as well, and I think that's really important as well.
> 
> All of this is to say that I think your view is certainly a workable way of life, and I respect its wholesomeness and cleanliness, but I don't think it's going to work for everyone nor that it needs to for us to have a relatively happy, healthy society. We need counter-measures like antiauthoritarianism and hedonism to ensure that power structures don't get too top-heavy, as they are wont to do, to ensure that the majorities and those born into power and resources don't just always keep them, to ensure that the genetic pools stay diverse and ever-changing, and to ensure that humans still have that raw sense of drive and passion and desire that plunges us forward into creating worlds anew.


I completely agree. Being around other men is great for me too. It gives you a sense of friendship and friendly competition beyond the romantic/sexual dynamics between men and women. One way that modern society has ruined this aspect of human life is by making everywhere and everything male and female accessible. I mean, where can you go to only be surrounded by men or women? Sometimes you just need to be surrounded by your sex so you can talk trash about the opposite sex (In a fun joking way), learn from one another, compete in a friendly manner, &c. For example, I have a female friend of mine who said she was in a class where every single person attending, including the professor was female. She told me how it ended up being a calm relaxing environment where the women could just be themselves and even talk trash about men a bit for fun. Of course, my gut reaction is "I don't agree with their criticisms of men", but upon further thinking, of course these girls weren't serious. People just say things for social interaction and bonding sometimes and what easier thing to bond over with the same sex than joking about the opposite sex?

I'm not entirely sure what the solution to this would be because obviously going too far means people don't have the experience to know how to talk with the opposite sex. We don't want to segregate the sexes too much, but I think a little bit is ok. For example, maybe the sexes are segregated up until a certain grade or something. I'm just thinking out loud here because I'm sure there's plenty of people with experience growing up in religious private schools and such, but I don't think we can always trust people's first hand accounts of event in their lives because people are so severely biased about their pasts.

I agree, this lifestyle doesn't work for everyone and a balance is probably best, but as of right now, I think we are too far on the hedonistic side of the spectrum and we need a return to tradition. Finding a man who is masculine, committed, attractive, etc. all at the same time is probably hard to find in this environment and when the media, music, etc. all pushes the hedonistic lifestyle on women, It becomes hard to find women who are more traditional, conservative, feminine, etc. Have you seen the amount of women who can't even cook a simple meal, dress like a proper lady, and speak respectfully? Because where I live, most women can't cook, they cuss a lot, and dress essentially like boys.

But you know what really makes a woman become feminine all of a sudden? A man. Every woman that I've dated was already feminine, but after they got into a relationship with me started caring more about their looks, started to cuss less, etc. Maybe it's just because I have a strong personality and so they were naturally submissive, but I think that's a good thing because I've had positive influences on them.

Anyways, I appreciate your more respectful and empathetic attitude! I can come off as pretty harsh and cold online because there's no repercussions, thus I value direct/blunt communication, but I soften really quick in the presence of sweet people as I see no need to have my guard up.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

@Denature I was really loving this post and agreeing with you until I got to THIS part:



> Other signs that a woman is undesirable for marriage is debt, tattoos, smoking, drinking, &c. because these are all activities done by hedonists, people with impulsive behavior, &c.


I had debt, I have tattoos, I smoke, I drink. I wouldn't consider myself a hedonist, though. I'm trapped in this house all day with two little kids. As an INFJ, I couldn't be impulsive if I tried.....well, maybe if I tried REALLY hard. 

And, let me tell you: I'm an awesome mom and wife. They would agree. I worked my fingers to the bone to be able to say that about myself.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

angelfish said:


> I think it's really interesting that you pair feminine and traditional. To me, sensuality and some degree of hedonism are inextricably linked with femininity, because it is very much (as experienced within myself, anyway) a sex-influenced drive, and while sex _can_ occur in the framework of marriage and family, it's a drive is quite separate of that. Humans are k-selected biologically - we have few young both overall and at a time, we raise them for a long time, we put a lot of resources into them, and we have long lifespans on average.


I agree. Dionysian cults like the Maenads were mostly associated with women. Man has been demonizing woman since Genesis, and @Denature - wanting subservient "safe" wives who live for pat's on the head for their pleasantry while you act like an 8 year old prick is a very patriarchal drive, and so truly feminine women would rebel against this, imo. Women have likely gone along with it because poor impulse control can result in pregnancy - and those things are expensive and life threatening... tho women don't so much die in child birth anymore, and can support themselves now if they want to too. Plus there's birth control and stuff. 

And the safer the chick, the more you can be sure her kids are your's - though we also have DNA testing now... so it's kinda like we're all freed from this all?

I'll say that the wilder women I've known have been some of the better wives and mothers imo. They're experts at dealing with chaos... and that's so much of what love and motherhood is lol.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Veggie said:


> I'll say that the wilder women I've known have been some of the better wives and mothers imo. They're experts at dealing with chaos... and that's so much of what love and motherhood is lol.


I'm going to get this etched into something somewhere in my house.....


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

AnneM said:


> @*Denature* I was really loving this post and agreeing with you until I got to THIS part:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough. There are clearly exceptions. However, this is my preference and I think the general rule applies.



Veggie said:


> I agree. Dionysian cults like the Maenads were mostly associated with women. Man has been demonizing woman since Genesis, and @*Denature* - wanting subservient "safe" wives who live for pat's on the head for their pleasantry while you act like an 8 year old prick is a very patriarchal drive, and so truly feminine women would rebel against this, imo. Women have likely gone along with it because poor impulse control can result in pregnancy - and those things are expensive and life threatening... tho women don't so much die in child birth anymore, and can support themselves now if they want to too. Plus there's birth control and stuff.
> 
> And the safer the chick, the more you can be sure her kids are your's - though we also have DNA testing now... so it's kinda like we're all freed from this all?
> 
> I'll say that the wilder women I've known have been some of the better wives and mothers imo. They're experts at dealing with chaos... and that's so much of what love and motherhood is lol.


I find the first part interesting, I'll have to do some research on it.

I haven't spoken of a man's duty in all of this, since we've focused on women, but of course a man is to respect his woman and treat her well. I don't expect women to be complete pushovers or slaves, but this mischaracterization of my beliefs is the exact kind of attitude I get from women who disagree with this traditional feminine/masculine dynamic. It's not an intelligent critique. It's just an emotional knee jerk reaction that doesn't aid in the discussion.

Perhaps you'll better understand if I state both the man's and woman's role at the same time, because when I focus on only the women, it seems to give you the impression that I only expect things out of women without providing anything in return and that's just false. I believe that one of the greatest things a masculine man should and does provide in a relationship is an overall sense of security and direction. A man should make his woman feel safe and cared for. He should be an intelligent person where she can trust his judgement and when they disagree they can discuss.

Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure. There's men who are more introverted like me, so taking charge in social situations is something that isn't as natural to me. There's women who are great systematizers and great with money, so the odds are they'll be the ones managing finances. There's a whole variety of ways a relationship can work and it'll depend on that relationship.

With my belief set, my background, &c. I believe that a traditionally feminine woman would best fit my goals of starting a healthy family. Modern society makes finding a woman like that more difficult because our media and general liberal attitudes on religion and sex indoctrinate women into believing that being traditionally feminine is "weak", that wanting a family over career is "a waste", that religion is for "idiots", that self-control is "missing out on the fun", and that maintaining sexual purity is "oppressive".

I believe that when we ignore nature's laws, we pay the price. Although there are exceptions like @AnneM , I don't want my kids growing up in a household where the aforementioned things are present. I don't want a wife that can't control her sexual urges enough to properly vet a man. I want a wife with some self discipline and a person's past tells you a lot about them. I'm fully justified in having high expectations for the mother of my kids and I'm not a sexist or 8 year old for wanting the feminine to my masculine.

How about the safer the woman, the more reliable? The more self disciplined? The better raised she was? It's not all about ensuring paternity alone.

That last bit is up for debate because we'd have to define terms like what is a "wild woman"? Because if that definition includes women who smoke, get tattoos, previously promiscuous, &c., then I'd imagine data would suggest otherwise.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

> 1 People who don't communicate
> Communication is key in a relationship. Not communicating leads to misunderstandings and dissatisfaction. I can't read minds. When my partner is mad, sad or upset in any way I'd like to know (even if I can't help). Or at least communicate you don't want to communicate right now and want to deal with your issues personally. It's exhausting and stressful to be with someone who is constantly upset or depressed but never wants to talk about it. Even more if you are the reason they're upset. Please don't do this to your partner. Please talk to them if you have issues.


I heard a saying "Communicaiton is only hard for someone who doesn't want to be with you" This is true in my personal experience and often the case if someone is not communicating with you very well or often.


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## Stopping By Woods (Jun 20, 2016)

Leaving the toilet seat up, dirty pants, socks and other clothing all over the place, crumbs in the bed...

Oh wait...

That's me.


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Stopping By Woods said:


> Leaving the toilet seat up, dirty pants, socks and other clothing all over the place, crumbs in the bed...
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> That's me.


I would be so pissed off at you all the time imao


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## Stopping By Woods (Jun 20, 2016)

Bad Bunny said:


> I would be so pissed off at you all the time imao


I actually don't do any of those things...roud:


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## Wisteria (Apr 2, 2015)

Stopping By Woods said:


> I actually don't do any of those things...roud:


Oh lol good. I'm sure all guys leave the toilet seat up at least sometimes


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Denature said:


> Fair enough. When I think marriage oriented, I also think family oriented because to me, the purpose of marriage is to start a family.
> 
> 
> I believe in your freedom to do as you like, but I truly disagree with that lifestyle. Sex should be a means to connect with the right person and every time you do that with someone who isn't the right person, you're only taking the spirituality out of sex and devaluing yourself. I don't know what your personal experience has been, nor am I a woman, but I get the impression that a lot of Western women in particular grow up with this sort of masculine attitude where it's woman versus the world and the more she "experiences life" and is "independent", the more of a "successful" person she is. I think one of the spiritual aspects that makes a woman amazing is her ability to inspire a man to be the best version of himself. Maybe men inspire women too, I'm not entirely sure. Has a man ever made you feel more like a woman, a queen, a goddess? I've certainly felt from some women such a sense of femininity, that it really makes me aware of just how much of a man I am. It's refreshing and It saddens me to see so many women engage in such degenerate behavior. Don't get me wrong, men are just as horrible. Every woman that I've ever been involved with has told me how horrible some men are and some of the horror stories they've had. I wish people in general would ascribe to a more simplistic, spiritual outlook on life: Build a virtuous life, find a suitable man or woman, get married, have kids, be happy and pass on good values to those kids so that when they grow up, they can have the ability to navigate this world and be happy as well.
> ...


Are you conflating 'family oriented' with 'traditional' perhaps? 

If you ask me, a family oriented man would be interested in having a family and providing for it. 

The only 'family oriented' men I've met where men that wanted to lock me up in a golden cage and have me cook/clean and make babies. Unfortunately, I'm not interested in being a brood mare nor a maid. 

What would a 'family oriented' man do with someone who is not 'wild' ( no tattoos, drinks very little, doesn't go clubbing, not into promiscuous sex) BUT has no interest in giving up my job and cook/clean/raise children?


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## Stopping By Woods (Jun 20, 2016)

Bad Bunny said:


> Oh lol good. I'm sure all guys leave the toilet seat up at least sometimes


But if I shared my Tunnocks tea cake with you in bed, would you be so mad?


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Aridela said:


> Are you conflating 'family oriented' with 'traditional' perhaps?
> 
> If you ask me, a family oriented man would be interested in having a family and providing for it.
> 
> ...


Yes.

Yes, I would too.

It's a matter of perspective. What you see as a "golden cage", others see a beautiful home (both physical and spiritual) that they play an integral part in maintaining. When you see "cook and clean" others see providing physical and spiritual nourishment to those she cares about. When you see "make babies", others see building a heritage, leaving a legacy, providing love and creating new experiences and growing together as people. When you see "brood mare", others see the miracle of life, the love of a mother and father, &c. When you see "maid", others see chores around the house that any normal person would do. Am I a "maid" whenever I cook and clean for myself? Am I a "maid" if I did it for a girlfriend out of love and appreciation or out of my protective instinct to make sure she's well nourished and her environment is clean when I notice she hasn't been taking good care of herself lately?

Allow me to clarify, I'm not so strict on the gender roles as much as I care about the whole personality dynamic of masculine/feminine. I shouldn't have to convince the mother of my kids that children are wonderful, that cooking and cleaning aren't oppressive, &c. They should just be things *we* naturally do with regards to the situation. I don't even want the 1950s style life. I have different dreams, but those dreams involve kids, a wife, a house, all of which requires particular skills and personalities to do effectively and I need her to be on the same page as me with regards to belief, spirituality, background, &c.

To me, those 'wild' characteristics are turn offs, red flags, deal-breakers because a woman who is more grounded, came from a good family, &c. wouldn't do those things. Now, everyone makes mistakes and I'm willing to be realistic with my standards, but this is a wife and mother we're talking about, not just a girlfriend.

To answer your last question, if a man wants kids and you don't, he'd do the right thing and leave. If you're implying the whole situation where you hire others to raise your kids, then it depends. Personally, I'd much rather have the actual mother raise our own kids, rather than childcare "professionals". If a mother isn't willing to raise her own kids, then I don't see why she'd want any and I don't see why any man would want her to be the mother of their kids. That being said, there are some men that are ok with that arrangement, but I'd rather be a more involved parent, so I expect the same of my wife. Ultimately, I think it just depends on the two people involved. I can understand if a woman has other passions alongside being a mother. Ideally those passions don't get too much in the way of her being a mother because you can't always be both a mother and a [Whatever else she wants to be], but I've seen some mothers go anywhere from being straight up homemakers to having part-time jobs on the side and I don't notice any correlation of happiness or quality of the family. It could even be a mixed strategy where at first she stays home and then as the kids age, she goes back to work or she decides she actually likes being a homemaker, &c. The key though is that she's involved with the kids enough. I want my kids to have fun memories with their mom.

Now here's a warning to you and any woman that doesn't want kids or marriage. There are plenty of guys who have every incentive in the world to win your heart just so they can make you an eternal girlfriend, use up your fertile years and leave you when they get bored. I swear the majority of relationship problems I hear of from women on PerC is some variation of "where have all the good men gone?". There are good men out there, the problem is that our culture has indoctrinated men and women into thinking that everything natural and good is "oppressive". So women lose their femininity, men lose their masculinity and good men have problems finding good women and vice versa. In the past, a man had a lot of incentives to marry, to have kids, &c. Those incentives were taken away due to modern social conceptions. Thus, the only marriage/family oriented people are by choice, which is a double edged sword.

Be very wary of any man who does not judge you. He doesn't judge you because he has already deemed you unworthy to marry, but good enough to use up. Lots of times men don't even realize they're literally wasting women's time. But, if you don't want kids, you don't want marriage, &c. then you can just get into a LTR. But if you do that, don't be surprised when a man's instincts drive him to look elsewhere once you've lost your beauty and there's no reason for him to stay.

I can't remember if there was a study done on this but I think men's minds are rewired once they have kids and the wife in his mind turns from a sexual object into family. (I think there's research that indicates that the male mind literally views women as objects. If I remember correctly, the same area of the brain as "tool use" lights up when a man sees a sexually attractive woman, or something along those lines).

I like to think with a healthy level of idealism tempered with the realities of human instincts, biological and psychological differences between the sexes, &c.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

@Denature

Isn't cleaning and cooking though an inherent 'female' trait? 

Biology dictates females are the ones who will bear children, fair enough. 

There's no biological need for the female to stay with the child past lactation. If a family doesn't want to pay for hired help, surely the father could stay at home and look after the children.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Aridela said:


> I can understand that, I'm the same way with Fe.
> 
> Left underdeveloped for decades and I've only recently made a conscious effort in trying to level it up. I don't know if that agrees with the going MBTI theory but I sometimes feel my top two shadow functions (Te/Ni) are much easier for me to access than Fe. Fi is a virtual impossibility. I don't get this function at all, it just seems very irrational and selfish to me.
> 
> Fe I can sort of appreciate, but overusing it makes me feel depleted in a way no other function can. Taking care of others' needs is just so incredibly draining to me.


The way I understand it, Jung originally thought that the most important function pair is your dominant vs. your inferior. They are opposed to one another and actively inhibit each other. Your inferior is your Achilles' heel, it's where you keep having trouble. Your shadow functions are less central to your struggles. At the same time, your inferior is that one pesky thing you keep feeling you have to get better at, often reluctantly.

When I was younger, I despised all things Se (except nature). I despised beauty, physical prowess and life itself, in the flesh. I'm sure my religious upbringing nudged me that way, but I was extremely opposed to Se without anyone urging me to be ... full-on Ni-suppression of it. I refused to masturbate from around 15 to 22 (when I got married), I refused to entertain any sexual thoughts even. Was a virgin when I married.

Well, that didn't pan out. Took me a fair few years to begrudgingly accept that Se wasn't going anywhere, and even longer to accept that it might actually be good for something, properly applied. Currently in that stage where you've decided to git gud at it but you're still taking wobbly baby steps.


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## Hifrad (May 11, 2019)

Childish behaviour plus thinking I'm a sort of babysitter. That makes winter come sooner . It surprises me how quick I detach from the other one when this happens.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Hifrad said:


> Childish behaviour plus thinking I'm a sort of babysitter. That makes winter come sooner . It surprises me how quick I detach from the other one when this happens.


Ah yes, mammoni, am I right? 

Damn right, if I wanted a child I'd have one.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Good heavens, where to begin.

OK, so this type of thread has been done before. But the answer is worth repeating.

As there is only one focal core to all meaning in life, and that is morality, to me, finding a partner that is willing to first admit that, and then aim for that set of truths in every way, in other words to GROW together in life as a team, is critical.

Along those lines and in order to avoid being generic and dull I will list some of the important issues:

1) Right action in includes right judgment. Along those lines I will say that although item 2 for the OP suggests there is no winning or losing, that IS NOT TRUE regarding moral judgment. That is to say, it would be hard indeed to accept a continuous and dedicated as immoral partner, i.e. one's whose judgment was immoral. This does not mean that someone who is actually TRYING genuinely and just not great at it cannot be forgiven.

2) Proper worthiness seeking via support of one's commitments. To me this translates 2 ways, first that the person loves 'in spite of' and not 'because of'. And second that a partner would indeed go out of their way to assist me directly and that this tendency would remain intact despite ALL other commitments and even children. I find that men are often the last benefactors in all relationships once they are fully underway.

3) Proper worthiness seeking via individual and as a team achievement. This includes healthy competition and 'fun' engagement of literally everything and everyone else in existence. I find that a lot of couples close down and clam up to the world or others or claim low energy and tiredness a lot. That is unacceptable.

4) Proper worthiness seeking via understanding each other deeply, intimately. This includes an interest in a continuous wealth of intimate expression, verbally, mentally, artistically, and physically. Leave out any of those things or stop a continuous flow of them and the relationship seems disingenuous to me. 

5) An ongoing effort to be aware of everything in life. Science, art, current events, cultural trends, world scenarios, etc. Inability to engender in oneself curiosity or the need to know is annoying.

6) An ongoing effort to prepare for most of life's dangers and typical expectations. A willingness to work hard to be ready in this way. An unwillingness to dismiss such concerns if they are expressed in balance. And a very strong loyalty to commitments despite the truth of the grass always being greener elsewhere. The basic human respect not to bring up the grass being greener elsewhere except only rarely and in a careful way.

7) A vast appreciation for the variety of life and experiences and an interest in all of them. A dedication to be a partner in crime to avoid boredom and routine. A joyous daily resolve! I find a lot of people who are down are doing it to themselves and will not admit it.

8) A willingness to challenge each other and the entire world to do better. The challenge to the self being also reflected in a deep and abiding tolerance of failure by way of forgiveness. The personal resolve to have energy and express it, even if you do not feel like it. The appetites of life kept high by choice.

9) A commitment to balance and not the watered down balance of moderation. The balance of raising all virtues to a fever's pitch and using each to restrain the other, making all voices and virtues heard within you. I find far too many couples are willing to do things halfway or avoid whole areas of their lives. I do not think that is in any way healthy.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> The way I understand it, Jung originally thought that the most important function pair is your dominant vs. your inferior. They are opposed to one another and actively inhibit each other. Your inferior is your Achilles' heel, it's where you keep having trouble. Your shadow functions are less central to your struggles. At the same time, your inferior is that one pesky thing you keep feeling you have to get better at, often reluctantly.
> 
> When I was younger, I despised all things Se (except nature). I despised beauty, physical prowess and life itself, in the flesh. I'm sure my religious upbringing nudged me that way, but I was extremely opposed to Se without anyone urging me to be ... full-on Ni-suppression of it. I refused to masturbate from around 15 to 22 (when I got married), I refused to entertain any sexual thoughts even. Was a virgin when I married.
> 
> Well, that didn't pan out. Took me a fair few years to begrudgingly accept that Se wasn't going anywhere, and even longer to accept that it might actually be good for something, properly applied. Currently in that stage where you've decided to git gud at it but you're still taking wobbly baby steps.


Haha yes, my grandmother is an ENFJ and her Fe used to annoy me to bits when I was younger. 

I just couldn't understand why she would insist on manners, putting other people first and the such - especially when it was obvious to me other people can and will take advantage of you if they sense you have that weakness. 

I think seeing it as a 'weakness' describes it perfectly actually. I'm still very wary of using Fe for the same reason, especially in romantic relationships, because that pesky Fe is so easily wounded - it's annoying. I'd rather go through life not using it at all, but that's like self-amputation, won't work. So, yeah, baby steps. Teaching helps too, I find.


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## Hifrad (May 11, 2019)

Aridela said:


> Ah yes, mammoni, am I right?


Yes :laughing:


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## WeirdlyAwesome (Aug 1, 2019)

Kommandant said:


> *I find relationships very difficult.*
> Here I want to vent what i find is difficult.
> Would be nice if people could share some of their realtionship pet peeves, red flags etc. here, so I can *learn what affects other people in a negative way in a relationship*.
> 
> ...


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Have you spent any time in such societies? I find that nothing gives you perspective like seeing things for yourself. I also find that all kinds of relationship cultures come with pros and cons, and getting to a good place depends more on self-awareness and individuation than courtship culture. Plenty of pitfalls in all of them, just different flavours of pain.
> 
> Whenever I read your posts, I get the distinct feeling that you find the "11-dimensional" (arbitrary number, you get my point) nature of actual humans troublesome to deal with, and would prefer for things to be "2-dimensional" so they fit distinct boxes where they can be neatly dealt with. That doesn't come without a price, even if *you *won't necessarily be the one to pay it.
> 
> People are "11-dimensional", that's just how we are wired. Culture can force us to behave in "2-dimensional" ways, but there's a price to pay. Dealing with "11 dimensions" isn't easy either, I'm not saying it makes things easier. But our evolution wasn't interested in creating an easy species ... we are complex and difficult to deal with. "2D" solutions can't fix it. Nor can anything else.


I have not. I didn't mean to imply that I wish to live in a overly strict society, but I do think many people would do good to have more restraint, purpose, and order in their lives. I agree that every relationship culture is going to have its pros and cons and I agree that individual self awareness is more important, but there's no harm in having social conventions to aid you along the way.

You're being quite vague with this description of "11-dimensional". What exactly am I oversimplifying in your mind and how is your perspective any different than mine?



Aridela said:


> Anyone called?
> 
> But, in general I have to agree with @*Denature* that most men are going to be deterred by a female who has had a large number of sex partners. Mostly because they don't like the idea of being compared to past partners. Which is understandable, if you base your self worth on sexual prowess alone.
> 
> For me, the number of sexual partners someone has had is irrelevant. The length of the relationships and how serious they were is what's relevant.


I've already explained a variety of reasons why males would steer clear of promiscuous females for marriage so I wont restate them, but there's some irony here at the end. Female psychology will in theory not care so much about the promiscuity of males, because it is not sex that the male is valued for, it's resources. The only way for a woman to secure these resources is through the male's voluntary grant of commitment, hence why you look at his relationship history as very important (how serious they were and the length as these both indicate how well he can commit to a woman and thus provide those resources).

You see, your female focus on the male relationship past is just the other side of the coin of the male focus on a woman's sexual past. They are both biologically ingrained detectors of how sexually faithful a woman will be to ensure his paternity and of how committed a male will be, and thus less likely to spend his resources on another woman, leaving your children hungry and unsheltered to die.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Denature said:


> You're being quite vague with this description of "11-dimensional". What exactly am I oversimplifying in your mind and how is your perspective any different than mine.


The wants and desires of men and women you describe are true on a certain species-specific, evolutionary level. But they only capture one thin slice of a much bigger cake. People are infinitely more complex than our basic simian impulses, we look for partners and pair up within a complex mesh of desires, conscious and especially unconscious. 

You've got your Jungian shadow patterns, attachment patterns, immune system coupling ("chemistry" or part thereof), pheromones, current self-development phase, level of maternal/paternal hormones and a gazillion other factors playing in - all of which are likely to have a major impact on the outcome of your relationship(s).

Our unconscious attachment patterns in particular hold huge sway over our coupling decisions by making only certain individuals feel emotionally desirable, often for deeply mentally pathological reasons. 

You can't bypass any of that no matter how successfully you can *consciously* ignore some of it.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> Our unconscious attachment patterns in particular hold huge sway over our coupling decisions by making only certain individuals feel emotionally desirable, often for _*deeply mentally pathological reasons*_.


Mmmmmm. Love. :heart:


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## Denature (Nov 6, 2015)

Marvin the Dendroid said:


> The wants and desires of men and women you describe are true on a certain species-specific, evolutionary level. But they only capture one thin slice of a much bigger cake. People are infinitely more complex than our basic simian impulses, we look for partners and pair up within a complex mesh of desires, conscious and especially unconscious.
> 
> You've got your Jungian shadow patterns, attachment patterns, immune system coupling ("chemistry" or part thereof), pheromones, current self-development phase, level of maternal/paternal hormones and a gazillion other factors playing in - all of which are likely to have a major impact on the outcome of your relationship(s).
> 
> ...


I'm open to broadening my perspective.

I've never heard of Jungian shadow patterns. I imagine that by "attachment patterns" you mean 'Attachment Theory' right?
Never heard of immune system coupling either. This isn't to imply that I'm close-minded to the ideas/dismissing them. I'd like to learn more.

I think pheromones play a part and I think our visual perception works together with that to screen for mates that have good genetics for mating with. (not to imply that there's a complete objective standard superior genetics for everyone, but rather a relative genetic basis for what is best for us, which explains the differences in what people find attractive. Not to mention the cultural part either).

By self-development phase I imagine you mean the compatibility between people based on where they are in their life/development? Yes, I'd imagine that's quite important.

Maternal/paternal hormones? Do you mean the levels of testosterone and estrogen that could possibly play a part in the compatibility between people? Yes, yes.










I tend to focus largely on the biological because I believe that much of the things you mention is inevitably built on the foundation of evolution. I mean, I think much of personality is genetically inherited, influenced by hormones, &c. and you did mention pheromones as well. The cultural factors do play a role of course and I don't mean to ignore those, in fact much of what I've already stated as preferences are actual behaviors manifesting from deeply held beliefs and things such as your place in self-development are self evident to me.

Perhaps my attitude here is simply, let the unconscious do its work as it does best, and figure out what you rationally can so that you can consciously make decisions while giving your subconscious more information to work with.


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## Marvin the Dendroid (Sep 10, 2015)

Denature said:


> Perhaps my attitude here is simply, let the unconscious do its work as it does best, and figure out what you rationally can so that you can consciously make decisions while giving your subconscious more information to work with.


I'm a bit busy, may return later with more thoughts. However this feels by far the most important part: you can't ignore the unconscious and imagine you can rule it consciously. Unless you are aware of and have integrated your unconscious mind, *you are little more than a puppet in the hands of your shadow*. 

Read Jung. With an open mind, understanding he is operating deep in the intuitive and unconscious parts of the mind, not describing objective reality. Read (and watch) Alain de Botton. Accept that you are not the consciously operating, rational mind you feel you are. Your rational mind is thin icing on a far thicker cake. 

Meditate. Watch your mind play its games with you.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

Denature said:


> I have not. I didn't mean to imply that I wish to live in a overly strict society, but I do think many people would do good to have more restraint, purpose, and order in their lives. I agree that every relationship culture is going to have its pros and cons and I agree that individual self awareness is more important, but there's no harm in having social conventions to aid you along the way.
> 
> You're being quite vague with this description of "11-dimensional". What exactly am I oversimplifying in your mind and how is your perspective any different than mine?
> 
> ...


It's interesting that we assume people always cared about paternity. 

There are several cultures (Hebrew for instance), that consider mainly the maternal line, because it's the one line you can be sure of. In tribal cultures (even cultures in existence now), tribal orgies were a norm, and children were raised communally. Such a paternal-centrist way of thinking is more likely a product of the agricultural revolution and all the individualist ideals that ensued.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

Im pretty happy atm,,,

give it a few moew days ;DD


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## misslatte (Jun 15, 2019)

Lack of tolerance.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

misslatte said:


> Lack of tolerance.


“Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good.”


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## Introvertia (Feb 6, 2016)

When it shifts into a state you see the other person's face every single fucking day and whenever you think you'll be alone, in peace, finally, no, they are still there. Every. Time. They appear somewhere. Even if you think about them, they're invading your thoughts. Plus you have to hear their voice saying stuff.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Introvertia said:


> When it shifts into a state you see the other person's face every single fucking day and whenever you think you'll be alone, in peace, finally, no, they are still there. Every. Time. They appear somewhere. Even if you think about them, they're invading your thoughts. Plus you have to hear their voice saying stuff.


Is that why people have a fucked up view of the self then? Gotta see that bitch every day..


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## 6007 (Feb 12, 2010)

reflexive shitty comments instead of thinking about things. getting defensive. being bludgeoning when it isn't needed.
escalating but insisting the other person is escalating, creating drama while saying the other is dramatic.
i get it, scorpio, you have feelings. but calm your tits, the aquarius isn't wired for that shit.


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

The other person


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## Introvertia (Feb 6, 2016)

Stelliferous said:


> Is that why people have a fucked up view of the self then? Gotta see that bitch every day..


Maybe. Break the mirrors and reflecting surfaces. It's liberating.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Introvertia said:


> Maybe. Break the mirrors and reflecting surfaces. It's liberating.


But that's what you want


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

What annoys me, of course, is that it's not perfect all the time. 

What annoys me _more_ is that I can't define exactly what "perfect" would look like, much less describe it to my spouse, much less determine if it's a fair or good expectation. There is too much mystery even just internally in each of us for us to know what perfect would _be_, if it were a real thing, which I suspect it's not and is actually just a mental artifice made of cognitive constructs and happy-neurotransmitter flood.

@Marvin the Dendroid, I love Alain de Botton's points and appreciate them. Of course we will all marry the wrong person, and of course we are all each the wrong person ourselves. Perhaps a better question is whether there is a person that is right enough for us that we are willing to spend much of our lives trying to be a better person not just for ourselves but also _for them_. 

Personally I have to remember that my spouse is really a quite wonderful person and if I ask him nicely he will really do just about anything for me. He even often will pre-emptively notice and provide what I want or need when he notices I'm getting fussy. Sometimes I get in my head that he won't be there for me and I don't know why. It is totally against all objective evidence, so think it has to do with those old hardwired subconscious fears. Which is reasonable, since our bodies and minds are designed to protect us at all expenses, but becoming "woke" enough to love unconditionally requires a bit of spiritual override, it seems.

Anyway, I have devised a practical metric. Is my partner annoying me more than I am annoying myself? No? Then, good enough!




Stelliferous said:


> Is that why people have a fucked up view of the self then? Gotta see that bitch every day...


Hah! It works both ways though. Sometimes you are a relief from your partner. Sometimes your partner is a relief from yourself!


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Having other friends or a life outside of me.

Also I don't like them demanding any commitment of me. 


(What, I never claimed to be reasonable)


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## WeirdlyAwesome (Aug 1, 2019)

when the other person is rushing too much that he is demanding me to do "Acts of Service" to him simply because it's his love language


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## Firelily (Apr 20, 2016)

When you find out that the person who you are meant to be able to trust has been venting to people behind your back instead of talking to you and making you out to be a crazy person and turning people against you because they view you differently then before.
sadly i think this is normal for people to do and it often woman doing it. i think its an unhealthy habit and its best to talk it out with the person. 

trusting them is just never the same now you have that new info.


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## Iloveshopping (Jul 10, 2018)

Them cheating and other things.


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## Abbaladon Arc V (Jan 16, 2018)

Me ? 

Immaturity 
And 
Don't like huge in every seconds of his existence


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## Firelily (Apr 20, 2016)

WeirdlyAwesome said:


> when the other person is rushing too much that he is demanding me to do "Acts of Service" to him simply because it's his love language


I'm so sorry you are going though this. :hug:

I'm not sure i see demanded love as real love but i could be wrong, maybe he will feel loved if you do things for him that you arent doing freely and out of love. 

This must make you feel very stressed.


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## SirCanSir (Mar 21, 2018)

Dishonesty, and someone trying to take control of my life's decisions and personal space under the name of the relationship.


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## hakk1 (Oct 15, 2019)

Ghost of Kommandant said:


> *I find relationships very difficult.*


Oh same. People who want me to be a mindreader of their feelz... not a chance. Or if they read my intent as some negative crap, and I tell them it isn't, they see that as argumentative... no thanks.


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## hakk1 (Oct 15, 2019)

Firelily said:


> I'm so sorry you are going though this. :hug:
> 
> I'm not sure i see demanded love as real love but i could be wrong, maybe he will feel loved if you do things for him that you arent doing freely and out of love.
> 
> This must make you feel very stressed.


That's another thing I don't understand and annoys me a lot. If you know your partner feels loved if you do x, then if you do x, that's what matters, and you do it out of love. It's freely done in my eyes even if explicitly asked for because you freely decided to be with your partner and to give your love in ways that they can enjoy it.


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## BenevolentBitterBleeding (Mar 16, 2015)

When they're better looking than me.


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## Meliodas (Nov 16, 2016)

When they are passive and expect me to initiate, create and organize everything we do together for them just because I'm a man and they are a woman. This makes me feel like I am talking to an overgrown child whose endless needs will drain me of energy, and it's exhausting enough just waking up to another lonely, empty day, wondering what the point of existing even is, then on top of that, having other people expect you to do X and Y for them. It would be amazing if someone showed some interest in meeting _my_ needs for a change!


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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

The implied pressure of always:
- wanting to meet.
- missing the partner.
- communicating.

I'm somewhat tired of the seriousness. I'm not a serious person.
10 months in and I'm learning what's awful about monogamous relationships. 
The cons far outweight the pros.


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## Stopping By Woods (Jun 20, 2016)

_One rule for me and another for thee._.. i.e they can freak out and get angry about something (usually small) but if you show any, even righteous anger when you have been really wronged by others, that's not allowed - cue the pop-psychology / self help / new age solutions for daring to display such toxic emotional behaviour.

_You are always wrong_ - realising it will always be this way despite all your efforts...eventually leads to _'I have no fucks to give'_

_I changed my mind_ - they don't like something you like, and made it clear, so you've not pushed them again on the issue after inviting them to try it. Sometime later, they are with friends / acquaintances - and they tell you they've tried it, and how wonderful it is, and you're left feeling like you've jumped into a parallel dimension and are slowly going insane.


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## Penny (Mar 24, 2016)

my biggest annoyance is getting the silent treatment


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## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

When people have tried to "play games". Rather than being open and direct about their thoughts and feelings, they opt for manipulation and lies. Nothing in the world makes me dislike a person more.


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## Lunatics (Jun 20, 2015)

If they are unwilling to compromise or when they become too reliant on me to come up with dates and experiences to spice up our relationship.


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## RyuukoGo (Apr 6, 2015)

The other person? :wink:

Not being open emotionally.
Not being honest...even brutally honesty is better than lying.
Not being in touch with their feelings,needs,wants desires and so on.


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## barathrum (Jun 6, 2011)

The inability to confront or rationally deal with truth. Emotion outbursts: acceptable and reasonable as the truth can be a deep as a labyrinth or as complex as a Church. 

I find cowardice and fear to be disgusting attributes which delay the inevitable acceptance of an already known state. 

Can't move on until its dealt with anyways, so it festers. Often used to subvert and react to their own scheme of things, also is usually pointed out at the start of the conversation but will be hidden by other party and used as a weapon. Shameful, deceit.


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## 30812 (Dec 22, 2011)

Over-competitiveness. Big red flag. I don't compete with friends what do they want me to do? Put on my game face and still call us friends?


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Compromise 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kommandant (Jun 27, 2017)

ai.tran.75 said:


> Compromise
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hm, interesting. Can you elaborate? Isn't compromising usually a good solution?


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## Cherry (May 28, 2017)

So many things, but I fear if I write them all out, I'll just be investing energy into the wrong place...
Better to focus on what I DO like I think...


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Ghost of Kommandant said:


> Hm, interesting. Can you elaborate? Isn't compromising usually a good solution?


I’m thinking in term of marriage 

Accepting your partners family and avoiding clashes with childrearing 

In laws - though I love mine - their ethical/political/

Vacation spot 

Child’s name 

With my partner / he had to compromise with me not wanting to change my last name 

It could be good but at the same moment it could be very annoying 





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## pwowq (Aug 7, 2016)

Idiot GF, ruined my jalapenos by tying the plastic bag they were in. 

Stuff like above. Someone else coming into my area and make a mess of my mess. At least in my mess there would be jalapenos!


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