# Getting hit on by women.



## kagemitsu (May 15, 2011)

Hey all,

so, I've grown tired of my permasingle status and, while I'm still in no position to attract anyone anywhere, was thinking about a reverse approach to dating.

Being a total idiot with the opposite sex, and so excessively shy that I never initiate contact ever (unless the girl is already taken or not available in some way), chances of finding someone are extremely small and I don't know for how long I can keep going like that. The solution would be having_ them_ come to me, instead of me being your typical alpha male that I know I'll never be.

What would it take, in your opinion, to make it so that the woman is the one doing the first step in a potential relationship? And if you're a woman, are you comfortable with you being the one who starts everything?

Thanks for any reply.


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## LittleHawk (Feb 15, 2011)

I'm more than happy to initiate my feelings if I know I have some good chemistry with the person or I feel that it's something I must do (getting it off my chest.) I also won't lie, alcohol has helped in the past... 

I'm not sure there is anything specific to encourage a woman to take the first step.. most women have been brainwashed into thinking a guy should make the first move and unless they're very confident I imagine they would only go for it if they had hints the person liked them in the first place.

You are not a total idiot though, just keep trying!


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

Dress COMPLETELY normally, as if, and then ... wear an item on your neck that is obviously a leash collar.

It sounds like a joke right? Try it. Use it as a conversation piece. A collar. Try different collars to see which one provokes the most women or the type of women you like to come talk to you. I think you'd be surprised.


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## Meirsho (Oct 9, 2012)

ok..man you've got a problem,you've gotta start getting over it...you're aware of it and that's good and now you need imo to take very slow steps at getting over this shyness and awkardness with women..you up for it?


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

kagemitsu said:


> Hey all,
> 
> so, I've grown tired of my permasingle status and, while I'm still in no position to attract anyone anywhere, was thinking about a reverse approach to dating.
> 
> ...


1. Get over your shyness; tough love, son, but it has to happen eventually. Get yourself out there. Do something out of your comfort zone. It worked for me. 

2. MOST women, and I am very comfortable assuming this, will find a confident man much more attractive than an insecure man. And it's not just women. It's people in general. Confident people who are secure with themselves tend to attract people. There is that sense of solace that many people find in a person.

3. A lot of women are about as insecure as you. Hence, they probably have the same dilemma you have: being too shy to approach people they like. So what if the girl you really like is as shy as you? You miss out on a lot of potential dates. Point goes back to point #1: *overcome your shyness.

*4. Yes, I have seen many women be the one to approach the guys and 'pick them up'. Yes, I have seen many women be the 'aggressor'. They were very confident in themselves. But the danger you leave by being the passive mate is the age-old issue of... GENDER ROLES. Trust me. Go to the ENTJ forums and discuss the plausibility of an ENTJ female and INFP male together. Good luck. The summary of what I learned in that discussion is this: an assertive woman is more likely going to find an even more assertive male attractive over a passive male. It just seems in-grained in many people's heads. Gender roles.

5. Another danger of leaving it up to the other pursue you is you're leaving the decisions to THAT person. What if she decides you're boring and lame and goes for someone else? You sure you can handle that? That sense of being replaced? It might make your sense of inadequacy and insecurity even worse.


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## chaoticbrain (May 5, 2012)

Try to give off a lot of posative energy.


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## qingdom (Apr 5, 2011)

OP must be a masochist to prefer getting hit on by women. just saying. sounds painful otherwise.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

you'll be waiting a while, unfortunately. 

women get hit on constantly. they have no need to approach guys. 
They'll rationalise it with bizarre ideas like the guy won't respect them or whatever. I don't know where they get that from.


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## Villainous (Dec 31, 2012)

kagemitsu said:


> Hey all,
> 
> so, I've grown tired of my permasingle status and, while I'm still in no position to attract anyone anywhere, was thinking about a reverse approach to dating.
> 
> ...


You're being a bitch. Get a pair of balls and get over your social fears through practice.

No woman will respect you if you're too scared to go after what you want.

If you want some help, check out rsdnation.com


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

Most men make the mistake of hitting on a woman; but the men who have the most success don't hit on women, they talk to them like they would anyone and get to know them. Then the women think, 'here's a friendly, good guy whose not a creep'. Then they begin to wonder why he's _not_ hitting on them which would hurt any woman's ego (yes, we also have ego's).
Then they begin to hit on the guys.

Talk to women, find out what they like/are interested in and invite them out to do something you both want to do. 
In a group the first few times is better because then they won't think it's because you're interested in them or at least they won't be sure. They think you're just being friendly.

Make no references to their appearance. Zero.
Make no references to sex. Absolutely Zero.

Typically, women are more attracted to a man's personality so you have to spend time with them in a comfortable atmosphere where they can be themselves. Once she gets to know you and like you, then you can hit on her -- she is far more likely to respond favourably. Or if you're lucky, she will do the work.

Good luck.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

amanda32 said:


> Most men make the mistake of hitting on a woman; but the men who have the most success don't hit on women, they talk to them like they would anyone and get to know them. Then the women think, 'here's a friendly, good guy whose not a creep'. Then they begin to wonder why he's _not_ hitting on them which would hurt any woman's ego (yes, we also have ego's).
> Then they begin to hit on the guys.
> 
> Talk to women, find out what they like/are interested in and invite them out to do something you both want to do.
> ...


here's what actually happens when one tries to apply that method:

guy talks to woman, without any hint of hitting on her. 
woman assumes he wants to be friends. 
at some point in the friendship, guy wonders how he will ever escalate to something more. 
guy tries to escalate. woman gets butthurt, laments evil nice guys that just act nice to get into their pants, and makes him feel guilty that friendship is not enough for him, accuses him of ulterior motives.
guy asks for advice online, and is told that he should be upfront about his intentions, or else it is deceitful. 
guy is upfront with his intentions, is labelled a creepy, demeaning pig with no respect, and who only wants sex. 
at this point, guy either gives up or continues going in circles, with every course of action used to demonise him in some way, at every turn.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

dizzycactus said:


> here's what actually happens when one tries to apply that method:
> 
> guy talks to woman, without any hint of hitting on her.
> woman assumes he wants to be friends.
> ...


Let's be honest. If you like the way that she looks and you don't know her, you only do want to have sex with her because you only like her for the way she looks and not who she is.

If you take time to get to know her and like both the way she looks and her personality then you like her for _her_. That's when you tell her you like_ her _or let it be known by asking her out on a proper date.

At this point she will be far more inclined to believe that you want more than sex, because you've spent time to get to know her and have asked her out on a date in a respectful way.

What you described does happen of course, but that is probably because the guy was just pretending to be her friend instead of really trying to get to know her. And also because the way he made his move lacked respect. And thirdly, because she perhaps genuinely wasn't interested in dating him, he wasn't her type. There is nothing you can do about the last part. You are who you are and you will or won't be her type no matter what. But you will have a far better shot at being given the chance if you take the time to get to know her.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

OP, I knew you were an INFP. I have the same issue as well, so I can empathize with you. I think that there really is no place in the real world where a woman initiating dates with a man will work out. In the social order of things, the guy would be seen to be weak and insufficient as a mate. On the instinctual level, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued because men are the alphas that seek to spread their seed, and need to be strong and secure in order to provide excellent genes. Women want those genes. 

It seems that a man taking the passive position will not progress with women. I like to dream that society can completely rise up above instinct, but in reality it isn't true. It seems that we as INFP males need to build our self-esteem and self-confidence, become secure in how we approach things, and take the initiative to find the woman we want. 
The choice then is whether or not you want to do so.


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## Kyandigaru (Mar 11, 2012)

You see a girl somewhere that you both frequent. You look at her monday and smile (showing teeth). Do the same thing for the next couple of days, until that ONE day you're tired of just smiling and push yourself to say Hello OR ask her an open ended question.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

amanda32 said:


> Let's be honest. If you like the way that she looks and you don't know her, you only do want to have sex with her because you only like her for the way she looks and not who she is.
> 
> If you take time to get to know her and like both the way she looks and her personality then you like her for _her_. That's when you tell her you like_ her _or let it be known by asking her out on a proper date.
> 
> ...


there are many problems with this. 
Firstly, what you said is true about not knowing someone, and I would personally love to get to know someone properly first. However, this isn't an issue that is controllable by the guy. You may disagree, but personally, I feel pressured to fit a certain role. If I want to get to know her, I'm a friend. There's no real difference between getting to know someone, and being their friend. In fact, I'd want to get to know them for several months first, and by then they'll definitely think we just a friend. It seems, as far as I can see, women place men into two categories: friends are guys that care about her. They are seen as sexless eunuchs. Potential boyfriends are guys that make sexual intentions clear, that are sexually exciting, and generally not really caring or sensitive. The dilemma, then, for a guy like me, is trying to merge the two roles. To be both a friend, and still be seen as potential boyfriend material. 

And, what exactly do you mean "pretending to be a friend"? How do you get to know someone, without making any kind of sexualised comment at all to reveal romantic intentions, without doing exactly the same as pretending to be a friend? And why must someone pursuing a relationship be unable to be a friend? You seem to think them mutually exclusive. 

your third paragraph, I would be ok with, if it was indeed something that simply happened sometimes, at the rate consistent with people not being interested in you. The issue, is when the rate of failure becomes so incredibly high, that it becomes undeniable that the method itself is ruining all chances, and that is where the fault lies.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

my advice, is to watch what people do, not what they say. 
if what they say is true, it will match with actions, anyway. So, actions are the sure way to tell. 
I'll leave it up to you to observe, and learn, with no input from me to influence what you will see, but I know already what you will see.


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## Villainous (Dec 31, 2012)

Immerseyourself said:


> OP, I knew you were an INFP. I have the same issue as well, so I can empathize with you. I think that there really is no place in the real world where a woman initiating dates with a man will work out. In the social order of things, the guy would be seen to be weak and insufficient as a mate. On the instinctual level, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued because men are the alphas that seek to spread their seed, and need to be strong and secure in order to provide excellent genes. Women want those genes.
> 
> It seems that a man taking the passive position will not progress with women. I like to dream that society can completely rise up above instinct, but in reality it isn't true. It seems that we as INFP males need to build our self-esteem and self-confidence, become secure in how we approach things, and take the initiative to find the woman we want.
> The choice then is whether or not you want to do so.


INFPs seem to have a really hard time in life in general since their personalities exhibit few traits of what our cultures considers masculine. Nonetheless, being shy is a social fear one of which is not genetically programmed. Any man can learn how to approach and attract women.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

dizzycactus said:


> there are many problems with this.
> Firstly, what you said is true about not knowing someone, and I would personally love to get to know someone properly first. However, this isn't an issue that is controllable by the guy. You may disagree, but personally, I feel pressured to fit a certain role. If I want to get to know her, I'm a friend. There's no real difference between getting to know someone, and being their friend. In fact, I'd want to get to know them for several months first, and by then they'll definitely think we just a friend. It seems, as far as I can see, women place men into two categories: friends are guys that care about her. They are seen as sexless eunuchs. Potential boyfriends are guys that make sexual intentions clear, that are sexually exciting, and generally not really caring or sensitive. The dilemma, then, for a guy like me, is trying to merge the two roles. To be both a friend, and still be seen as potential boyfriend material.
> 
> And, what exactly do you mean "pretending to be a friend"? How do you get to know someone, without making any kind of sexualised comment at all to reveal romantic intentions, without doing exactly the same as pretending to be a friend? And why must someone pursuing a relationship be unable to be a friend? You seem to think them mutually exclusive.
> ...


I am trying to help you but I'm not sure you're listening.

A quality woman wants a good, nice guy. End of story. You can argue with me if you like, but you'd be wrong.
If you want a quality woman, you have to be friendly to her and take out the sexual element _at first_ because as soon as you mention sex her guard will go up and she'll just think you're like every other guy who hits on her (and she gets hit on a lot) and only wants one thing.

She will know that you think she's attractive without you telling her. She'll know that you're interested in her because you're spending time with her and being a gentleman. And then she will begin to think you are different than the other men she's met and actually interested in_ her_.

The trick, I guess is to keep the tension there, to keep her wondering, to let her know you're interested in her without verbalizing at first. She will get the hint. 

Keep all the date rules in play. Open the door for her, be polite, don't talk about your ex's, or anything unsexy like bathroom stories or burping. Don't make crude jokes, etc.

She will get that you are interested in her and if she continues to go out with you then she is thinking about dating you.

Women give men tests. One of the biggests tests is time -- something a lot of men are not willing to invest. If you invest the time to get to know her, she will equate that with genuinely liking her instead of just wanting to sleep with her.

Don't be her new sexless best buddy -- just be friendly and spend some time with her without telling her how beautiful she is or trying to touch her or kiss her. Let her see it in your eyes, in how polite and caring and protective of her you are, in how interested you are in what she has to say.

And don't believe this garbage about how women put men into a "friend zone" that you will never get out of. That's crap. Women are always falling for their guy "friends". In fact, I'm working with two women right now who are dating guys they were first friends with.

The only reason a woman will be friends with you and not date you is because she is not sexually attracted to you, but every guy friend a woman has -- she. has. thought. about. him. and. considered. it. She just decided he she wasn't attracted to him, the way men decide all the time that they're not attracted to a certain woman no matter how nice/sweet she is.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

Villainous said:


> INFPs seem to have a really hard time in life in general since their personalities exhibit few traits of what our cultures considers masculine. Nonetheless, being shy is a social fear one of which is not genetically programmed. Any man can learn how to approach and attract women.


I agree with your statement. The only reason I actually (temporarily) pulled myself out of my shell to pursue a woman once was because my ENTJ friend was there to provide some support. The relationship crashed before it began, and he's still shaking his head in irritation at my reticence to do so again with another woman. 
The issue is that INFPs are not naturally assertive and push to get what they want from people. Fi _generally_ results in shy introspective attitudes where the roiling doubts and insecurities interact with fantasies to form delusions not based in reality; it can create high standards, obliviousness towards real potential emotional interactions, and leaves an INFP dead in the water when it comes to interaction of the opposite sex. 

Yes, any man can learn to approach and attract women. It is a _skill_ that must be achieved as any other, however the only way to achieve that skill is to provide incentive and motivation to do so. Incentive can be derived from the apparent opportunity costs abundant in the environment, and the weighted values placed on each. If I think that reading or browsing online is easier and more rewarding than obtaining skills to interact and attract women, then I'll do so. Developing the latter skills provides more long-term benefit, but the costs are heavy through the process and reading or browsing provides no distinctive costs and plenty of benefits.

Motivation is often harder to achieve. I need to somehow convince myself that obtaining these skills are worth it, and something I should seek. However, when you work, take college classes, volunteer your time, hang out with your two friends, and try to relax and unwind with your own time, the motivation to take on the stress of developing skills towards the opposite sex and stomach the unmotivating (and inevitable) rejections, you really want to procrastinate it and dump it.
Being a P, its easy to look at it and say "Yeah...._no_. Browsing online, reading, studying, hanging with friends, all are things I enjoy doing, where being shot down by the opposite sex, learning the dating game, playing "dress up", and more, are not stuff I enjoy."

The hardwiring of my brain thereby ascertains that pulling up a chaise and relaxing in my comfort circle provides contentedness and makes my life easier. The only downside is that you have to wonder if you _really, really_ want to have a woman in your life. And if you _do_ really, _really _want a woman in your life, than you need to make sacrifices to do so.
A lot of us INFP males either never get there, somehow get lucky and find the perfect woman without much effort, or actually stand up and make an effort.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am really curious to see the stats on those three.

On a side note, typing ctrl-r for "really" in the above paragraphs actually refreshed my screen. I almost raged at both the screen and the ceiling at the loss of my written work (its happened before on fora because of stupid stuff like hitting the back-space button when clicking off, and going back a page), until I noticed the auto-save feature. So I'd like to extend my thanks to the programmer who put that code there.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

amanda32 said:


> I am trying to help you but I'm not sure you're listening.
> 
> A quality woman wants a good, nice guy. End of story. You can argue with me if you like, but you'd be wrong.
> If you want a quality woman, you have to be friendly to her and take out the sexual element _at first_ because as soon as you mention sex her guard will go up and she'll just think you're like every other guy who hits on her (and she gets hit on a lot) and only wants one thing.
> ...


that all depends on her being a "quality woman", which is both subjective, and, if defined by the criteria you list, extremely rare. 
Personally, I have only met a handful of women in my life that are attracted to nice guys, that would not friendzone a guy for being friendly. Of course, I only require one woman to be happy, but it isn't much good for general advice, since such advice would be applied to many guys, more guys than there are these rare women to match up with. 

oh, and if a woman "tests" me at all, I'm done with her. 
Don't have time for games, to be tested. 
Depending on the definition of test. If it's simply a criteria to be filled, that's a little different.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

...ok...good luck.


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## Villainous (Dec 31, 2012)

Immerseyourself said:


> I agree with your statement. The only reason I actually (temporarily) pulled myself out of my shell to pursue a woman once was because my ENTJ friend was there to provide some support. The relationship crashed before it began, and he's still shaking his head in irritation at my reticence to do so again with another woman.
> The issue is that INFPs are not naturally assertive and push to get what they want from people. *Fi generally results in shy introspective attitudes where the roiling doubts and insecurities interact with fantasies to form delusions not based in reality;* it can create high standards, obliviousness towards real potential emotional interactions, and leaves an INFP dead in the water when it comes to interaction of the opposite sex.
> 
> Yes, any man can learn to approach and attract women. It is a _skill_ that must be achieved as any other, however *the only way to achieve that skill is to provide incentive and motivation to do so.* Incentive can be derived from the apparent opportunity costs abundant in the environment, and the weighted values placed on each. *If I think that reading or browsing online is easier and more rewarding than obtaining skills to interact and attract women, then I'll do so. Developing the latter skills provides more long-term benefit, but the costs are heavy through the process and reading or browsing provides no distinctive costs and plenty of benefits.*
> ...


I call BULLSHIT. Stop rationalizing being a bitch. First, cognitive functions like those describe in MBTI might not actually exist so ignore that crap.

How about the motivation of pussy? That should be enough. If it's not, then how about the skills you gain to be a conversationalist, to be charming, to gain strength by confronting fear, to cultivate amazing relationships with women and people in general, to discover who you are, what strengths and weaknesses you have, and your life purpose?

There is no benefit to reading and surfing the internet endlessly. It's just mental masturbation that distracts people from DOING and LIVING. Sex and relationships are more beneficial for your health and character then this forum or facebook.

You'll probably continue to be this way until you get sick of being in a state of lacking relationships with women crack. This'll be a tipping point and hopefully you'll start this new journey.


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

kagemitsu said:


> Hey all,
> 
> so, I've grown tired of my permasingle status and, while I'm still in no position to attract anyone anywhere, was thinking about a reverse approach to dating.
> 
> ...



I think this is a very lazy approach to dating, and life.

Dont get me wrong, I think if an opportunity comes knocking you should answer it; but if you feel attracted to someone, and are shy, it very unlikely that they will come to you. Why? Because usually shy people arent good at physical, or verbal cues; if you cant ask a woman out, you probably cant flirt with one to make them comfortable enough to ask you out.

Shyness is just a fear-based response to feeling insecure or vulnerable; and not many people, especially women, view it as a good thing.

You are making your own dating pool nonexistent by being both shy, and choosing not to initiate contact.

You have to do something.


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## TWN (Feb 16, 2012)

@amanda32


I just want to say that I cant take anything you type seriously due to your sig.

It is completely wrong.


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## Marek (Jan 14, 2013)

amanda32 said:


> Let's be honest. If you like the way that she looks and you don't know her, you only do want to have sex with her because you only like her for the way she looks and not who she is.
> 
> If you take time to get to know her and like both the way she looks and her personality then you like her for _her_. That's when you tell her you like_ her _or let it be known by asking her out on a proper date.
> 
> ...


You explained it previously but still I don't get this part. I can't imagine trying to be be friend with someone without getting to know that person.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

Why don't you just make an online dating profile and say you're looking for assertive women?


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

TWN said:


> @amanda32
> 
> 
> I just want to say that I cant take anything you type seriously due to your sig.
> ...


Sheesh, lighten up.:ninja:

Evolutionists are so touchy about their faith...


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

amanda32 said:


> _*Most men make the mistake of hitting on a woman; but the men who have the most success don't hit on women, they talk to them like they would anyone and get to know them. Then the women think, 'here's a friendly, good guy whose not a creep'. Then they begin to wonder why he's not hitting on them which would hurt any woman's ego (yes, we also have ego's).*_
> Then they begin to hit on the guys.
> 
> Talk to women, find out what they like/are interested in and invite them out to do something you both want to do.
> ...


Yup. Most women I'd argue _adore attention_. Key is to give 'em genuine attention but not too much (or they get bored and an inflated ego). 

I think some guys have this mentality "I have to do this and that and say this and that to get a girl". This can be a very wrongful approach to "getting a woman". 

I'm gonna have to disagree with the last two paragraphs though. 

That can lead to a man getting dumped in the friend zone because a woman's gonna rationalize, "well, he's not making a move so he's not interested" and thus will open their prospects to someone else (especially if they get suitors on an occasional basis). 

Not exactly a "pimp" when it comes to getting women but for someone who's failed a lot I can honestly pinpoint what I did wrong or what I did not do that led to the failure.


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

amanda32 said:


> Sheesh, lighten up.:ninja:
> 
> Evolutionists are so touchy about their faith...


Science is taken religiously. Religion is taken scientifically. Take your pick lol


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## kagemitsu (May 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies everyone. 

I guess I'm gonna have to grow a pair eventually. :\


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

devoid said:


> Why don't you just make an online dating profile and say you're looking for assertive women?


because assertiveness would only be a required attribute for them to approach him. If he's on an online dating site, assertiveness is suddenly redundant for that use, because he doesn't require that she approaches him, being online as it were.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

dizzycactus said:


> because assertiveness would only be a required attribute for them to approach him. If he's on an online dating site, assertiveness is suddenly redundant for that use, because he doesn't require that she approaches him, being online as it were.


I mean, it's not like he has to write that out specifically. But it sounds like he is looking for a strong willed and assertive partner regardless.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

devoid said:


> I mean, it's not like he has to write that out specifically. But it sounds like he is looking for a strong willed and assertive partner regardless.


not really. sounds like he just wants someone to ask him out.


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## Nixu (Jun 2, 2010)

Immerseyourself said:


> OP, I knew you were an INFP. I have the same issue as well, so I can empathize with you. I think that there really is no place in the real world where a woman initiating dates with a man will work out. In the social order of things, the guy would be seen to be weak and insufficient as a mate. On the instinctual level, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued because men are the alphas that seek to spread their seed, and need to be strong and secure in order to provide excellent genes. Women want those genes.
> 
> It seems that a man taking the passive position will not progress with women. I like to dream that society can completely rise up above instinct, but in reality it isn't true. It seems that we as INFP males need to build our self-esteem and self-confidence, become secure in how we approach things, and take the initiative to find the woman we want.
> The choice then is whether or not you want to do so.


I guessed the INFP-ness too, since it's to much like me. However, I never approeached a woman. They come to me. It's not really often, but then they come for me, they are not very subtle about it.
And a thought I got when I read your post....I don't count myself as an alpha or anything, I'm not very assertive, but I have high standards. That doesn't mean I need to chase, right? The women who really want me will come to me anyway, and vice versa. If I _really_ wanded someone, I'd do something. But so far, no one has "forced" me to act first, and if things go where they seem to be heading, I'll have a very, very wonderful woman in my arms before the end of the year; the whole thing initiated by her a long time ago.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

I would try something online and start going on dates.


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## Arbite (Dec 26, 2010)

amanda32 said:


> Women give men tests. One of the biggests tests is time -- something a lot of men are not willing to invest. If you invest the time to get to know her, she will equate that with genuinely liking her instead of just wanting to sleep with her.


Why should I care about a womans tests? Why shoudn't I have tests of my own? Why do I have to do all the work?



amanda32 said:


> Sheesh, lighten up.:ninja:
> 
> Evolutionists are so touchy about their faith...


3/10, but thats the best I can do.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

Nixu said:


> I guessed the INFP-ness too, since it's to much like me. However, I never approeached a woman. They come to me. It's not really often, but then they come for me, they are not very subtle about it.
> And a thought I got when I read your post....I don't count myself as an alpha or anything, I'm not very assertive, but I have high standards. That doesn't mean I need to chase, right? The women who really want me will come to me anyway, and vice versa. If I _really_ wanded someone, I'd do something. But so far, no one has "forced" me to act first, and if things go where they seem to be heading, I'll have a very, very wonderful woman in my arms before the end of the year; the whole thing initiated by her a long time ago.


Yes, high standards can be the norm of INFPs, at least the ones I've met. Two of them (myself and another INFP male I knew) hold high standards for women. And on the other foot, I knew an INFP who kind of drifted around like a balloon when it came to relationships; you could hold her, and she'd float around, but she was oblivious to how bad the relationships were. She was stuck in her dreamworld too much. 
I don't necessarily agree that a woman who really wants you will come. I _do_ agree because it has happened to me, but I _don't_ agree because it has happened so rarely to me that I think it just depends on their desperation and personality. It is ingrained in our culture, at least over here in the United States, that men ask women out. That has to do with the extraverted culture we have over here. Women _expect_ men to ask them out, and if the men don't? Well, obviously they don't care for you. 

You likely come from a more introverted society where if you _want_ things, you _grab_ them because people are more inclined to let things pass by. The only way I would really settle with a woman is if they have the will to initiate first, and stick with it. Is it likely to happen? In my dreams. So with that, it looks like some INFPs at certain parts of the world need to go outside their comfort zone.
What is hilarious (in a dark way) is that a greater fraction of those INFPs who need to go outside their zone, won't do it because they're so stuck in their ideologies and the comforts they bring. 
Oh well.


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## Nixu (Jun 2, 2010)

Immerseyourself said:


> It is ingrained in our culture, at least over here in the United States, that men ask women out. That has to do with the extraverted culture we have over here. Women _expect_ men to ask them out, and if the men don't? Well, obviously they don't care for you.
> 
> You likely come from a more introverted society where if you _want_ things, you _grab_ them because people are more inclined to let things pass by


Good point. While Finland is clearly a Western culture, we are quite introverted, especially when compared to the culture over there in the USA. Most women here do expect men to initiate, but not all.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

I have a bizarre twist on the OPs situation. I am supremely confident and have no issue approaching women. Unlike most confident men though, I do care a lot about rejection. I usually feel very vengeful about it. Further I find that most of my lasting relationships have occurred in one of two ways:

1) The woman did approach me and her choice left the quick rejection option mostly on my side of the table, so, she got to know me by her own choice and that usually results in her sticking around and being interested despite my flaws.

2) The wonder of happenstance threw us together and we had to deal with something. We just naturally became involved and usually at some point simultaneously grabbed each other as if someone had rung a bell and said, 'go!' I find these relationships to be the most rewarding and passionate initially, but so far they have trailed behind the type of situation listed in 1 above over the long term.

What I am now not looking for actively (because you can't) yet I hope to find, is the combination of the above two. 

Notice that in both cases I did not do the approaching. I have had relationships that worked for a while on the basis of my own approach, but consider the odds. Approach isn't a likely bet for a demonstrator. The male role is usually demonstrative. The female role is the chooser. Usually.

What do the two scenarios above require logically and emotionally?

You have to be physically out in the world mixing with women of an appropriate age in activities that show you off favorably, are a mix of physical and mental efforts, and there is at least some idle time to chat.

You have to be emotionally available, having dealt with your own issues internally, free from past relationships and casually open to a new dating experience. If you are not ready, that scar or leftover will blemish the new attempt.

The addictions we can easily fall into with respect to staying in our comfort zones are far more damning in some ways than even the ravages of lighter substance abuse. Dreamworld/realworld percentages need to be dialed up in favor of the realworld. Consciously. A retreat is supposed to be a brief sabbatical where you restore your energies to foray out in to the realworld again. Make it so!


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## Pom87 (Apr 7, 2012)

Hit 'em with herpes. That will give something between you that lasts forever.


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

kagemitsu said:


> What would it take, in your opinion, to make it so that the woman is the one doing the first step in a potential relationship?


Women give nonverbal clues of interest. You might be missing these hints. Even if you misinterpret a signal and you do end up being the one who initiates (tag, you were it all along), she might reciprocate your mistaken advance. Or if you had a very weak interest and had only shown the courtesy of responding, call it luck and see where it goes.

In short: You may be in a false mindset that women aren't initiating because you aren't sensitive to their advances, which for most of us won't be on the level of a celebrity. But even if I was just bullsh*ting you to raise your level of confidence, believing this lie would be in your short term interest.


Long term interest, however... If you are looking for or require a confident woman who is willing to initiate on a level that registers with you, then, by your own experience, there is an undeniable shortage in your neck of the woods. You can adapt to your environment or you can change your environment. (You decide which is the problem. Don't listen to anyone else.) Anyway, Brazil and Asia are good confidence boosters for foreign-looking white guys.


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## paperbrain (Jan 4, 2013)

I’m going to give you what might be the most crackpot suggestion of them all but I’m going to do it anyway because as an introvert it helped me, so I’m speaking from some experience. I am not going to promise you that it will get you laid. I’m not going to promise you it will get you a girlfriend. But what it does do, much like amanda32 is suggesting is it creates a controlled environment which allows you to experiment and explore, it's just my suggestion is a little bit different. 

I’m suggesting to you to take an acting class and more specifically one that is focused on scene study. If you have ever have watched the Actor’s Studio I’ve seen more than one male actor come on and say, "I started taking acting classes to meet girls"…and it works, partly because there are more females in these classes than men, usually and a large portion of scenes that actors work on, though not all, are love/sex scenes.

Scene study classes often do love scenes, not always but often and you have to figure out how to get your character what they want in a, shall we say, simulated situation or shall we say a laboratory for sexual situations, which makes things a little more comfortable, I think, for introverts. I’ve had to make out with several guys on and off stage to practice and perform scenes and I did it without problem and I'm quite introverted. But you get to go home at the end of the day and not deal with anything messy or feel embarassed. And it gives you some confidence. I’m not advocating dating actresses per say, not at all, but acting forces you to be in a situation, a simulated one, where you can try different things with women that you might not be comfortable trying in real life. Don’t worry about trying to be the best actor in the world. That’s not your goal. Your goal is to become more comfortable around women and to have a place to explore.


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## Strife (Aug 25, 2010)

paperbrain said:


> I’m going to give you what might be the most crackpot suggestion of them all but I’m going to do it anyway because as an introvert it helped me, so I’m speaking from some experience. I am not going to promise you that it will get you laid. I’m not going to promise you it will get you a girlfriend. But what it does do, much like amanda32 is suggesting is it creates a controlled environment which allows you to experiment and explore, it's just my suggestion is a little bit different.
> 
> I’m suggesting to you to take an acting class and more specifically one that is focused on scene study. If you have ever have watched the Actor’s Studio I’ve seen more than one male actor come on and say, "I started taking acting classes to meet girls"…and it works, partly because there are more females in these classes than men, usually and a large portion of scenes that actors work on, though not all, are love/sex scenes.
> 
> Scene study classes often do love scenes, not always but often and you have to figure out how to get your character what they want in a, shall we say, simulated situation or shall we say a laboratory for sexual situations, which makes things a little more comfortable, I think, for introverts. I’ve had to make out with several guys on and off stage to practice and perform scenes and I did it without problem and I'm quite introverted. But you get to go home at the end of the day and not deal with anything messy or feel embarassed. And it gives you some confidence. I’m not advocating dating actresses per say, not at all, but acting forces you to be in a situation, a simulated one, where you can try different things with women that you might not be comfortable trying in real life. Don’t worry about trying to be the best actor in the world. That’s not your goal. Your goal is to become more comfortable around women and to have a place to explore.


Great advice, and I second this. Acting classes can really help bring you out of your shell overall, it teaches you how to be which is probably the quintessential 'skill' when dealing with people.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

amanda32 said:


> Most men make the mistake of hitting on a woman; but the men who have the most success don't hit on women, they talk to them like they would anyone and get to know them. Then the women think, 'here's a friendly, good guy whose not a creep'. Then they begin to wonder why he's _not_ hitting on them which would hurt any woman's ego (yes, we also have ego's).
> Then they begin to hit on the guys.
> 
> Make no references to their appearance. Zero.
> ...


Terrible advice.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

kagemitsu said:


> Being a total idiot with the opposite sex, and so excessively shy that I never initiate contact ever (unless the girl is already taken or not available in some way), chances of finding someone are extremely small and I don't know for how long I can keep going like that. The solution would be having_ them_ come to me, instead of me being your typical alpha male that I know I'll never be.
> 
> What would it take, in your opinion, to make it so that the woman is the one doing the first step in a potential relationship? And if you're a woman, are you comfortable with you being the one who starts everything?
> 
> Thanks for any reply.


I'm an INFP, and I've found all my relationships (bar one) in work environments, I find it pretty easy to do that actually. I'm currently unemployed, and even if I do get a job I don't want another serious relationship for a while (got out a marriage in summer) so I have to learn to approach women now.

The truth is the cultural norm in the west is that men have to approach women, unless women are drunk they will rarely will ask you out on a date, or for your phone number even if they like you. I have had women ask for my phone number sober, twice - but the majority of my kisses, hook ups or dates have been because I've took the lead.

So what we have to do is develop positive self-talk and a relaxed nervous system, and learn to take the lead with women who we think are 'open' to us.

Doesn't look like the cultural norm will change this lifetime dude.

This is a great talk (they give good advice for free, I wouldn't bother buying anything from PUA guys);


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## niffer (Dec 28, 2011)

I have no fricken clue how you could get women to come to you more than they currently do.

However.

If your plan is to hang around and wait for fish to take the bait, then I suggest you make yourself visible to as many fish as possible. You have to at the very least put yourself out there where there are a lot of women, especially places where there are the type of women who might potentially "bite" and who would like you for you.

My boyfriend is an INFP(ish), one of the most introverted people I've ever met, and I met him over the internet, on an MBTI forum like this one actually before we took our relationship IRL. He started liking me quite a while before I even noticed him, yet I confessed my feelings to him first.

I have always played an active role in pursuing people I've been interested in, and have always gone for the nice (or at the very least, more emotionally complex seeming) guys. I am the type of person who has always, without fail, ended up gravitating towards the quietest guy in the corner at parties. Women like me do exist. So there is hope brutha boy.


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## Devrim (Jan 26, 2013)

My biggest advice to you is confidence,
Love yourself and they'll love you,
Don't let them see the bad of you,
Only show them the good time!

People like winners,
And if you're a positive person,
They'll want you around!
But that's for any gender,
And anyone 

These may all be cliche,
But they are true,
And they work very well!

Also,
Don't look so hard,
Be open to the possibility of someone,
But don't become depraved and desperate for it,
Because then it'll just ooze off of you,
And it'll chase ANYONE away,
Romantic or not.

Otherwise!
Be yourself,
You want them going for you,
Because they want to be with YOU,
And not some fake version you've created of yourself,
It's a lie to them,
And draining to you.

So to re-cap
-Confidence, love YOU and they'll like you too
-Positive, No one likes a party pooper, try the wild things in life
-Don't look to hard, you might just miss the right one, or drive them away!

Good luck!


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

Palaver said:


> Women give nonverbal clues of interest. You might be missing these hints. Even if you misinterpret a signal and you do end up being the one who initiates (tag, you were it all along), she might reciprocate your mistaken advance. Or if you had a very weak interest and had only shown the courtesy of responding, call it luck and see where it goes.
> 
> In short: You may be in a false mindset that women aren't initiating because you aren't sensitive to their advances, which for most of us won't be on the level of a celebrity. But even if I was just bullsh*ting you to raise your level of confidence, believing this lie would be in your short term interest.
> 
> ...


The problem with women's "non-verbal clues" is that they are non-verbal. In the definition of _initiating,_ non-verbal is not initiating unless you are a complete master of body language and can understand even the most subtle hint.
I say it isn't initiating because it can easily be misinterpreted by the novice. _No one_ can misinterpret the words "Hey, you want to grab a cup of coffee" or "Hey, I was wondering if you wanted to catch a movie?"
They are initiating if not out of romantic interest, than at least out of an interest in hanging out with you. Non-verbal clues are not of substance, and can easily fade away with no one knowing better.

i don't read women, and I have no intention of reading women for the sake of initiating, because in doing that I am subjecting myself to a whole new world where I dictate the game. I don't want to play chess with a woman because I have no inclination of having my chess board swept clean by the rejection of an uninterested woman. I also don't have time in my life to play games.
The OP likely feels the same way.
If a woman did approach, then it would be a different story.

I could also make the argument, "What are they doing to pull their weight?" This is the 21st century. Women have equal rights. Its about time they _act_ like they have equal rights, and by that I mean the negatives with the positives. If they want to bow down to instincts and let the men chase as it has been since the dawn of our species, than I want nothing to do with that woman. I want one that can give, as much as take, _from the very beginning_. I'm positive the OP has the same mentality.


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## lolwut12345 (Feb 25, 2013)

If you're a shy guy, then the easiest way to get a woman to like you is to act like an asshole.

I'm not a shy guy, but I would say that I'm a nice person who used to want to be in a relationship with a woman that was egalitarian, so I acted nice to women. Without going into detail, the moral of the story was that I got rejected by women every single time I showed interest in them in a polite and nice manner.

The only times I have ever gotten women interested in me in my entire life is when:
A. I wasn't interested in them, and since I wasn't interested in them even though I was nice and polite to them, I was that way in a disinterested fashion and that seemed to make women attracted to me.
B. When I was attracted to them, I acted like an asshole. I was aggressive, I took the initiative every time, I acted like a leader and I told her what to do. Whenever we'd go out I'd tell her where we're going, I'd tell her what I wanted to do. Women responded very positively to this as well and were attracted to me.

Moral of the story is this, sure you can attract women and be nice, but you can't be too nice. You can be nice and polite, but you have to do it in a way that conceals your interest in them at the same time. This is very difficult to do for many men. Some men are able to do it, but there are plenty who can't. If you aren't that good of an actor or you just don't have good game with women or for whatever reason you just can't follow this method, then I suggest to just act like a stereotypical alpha male. Be aggressive, be straightforward and blunt to the point of being completely inappropriate and rude, boss her around, tell her what to do, etc, etc. This will work better than you think, and it will be a lot more effective than being a shy nice guy and never ever getting women to like you.

Also like another wise person said in this thread, it's more important to observe people's actions and less important what they say. It's especially true with women. In most cases I'd say, what women say they want in a guy and who they actually end up dating are two very different types of men. Women typically say they want a nice man, but almost always when you look into their dating history (or just look at the men they're currently dating) it's full of evidence that suggests she's into guys who boss her around and wouldn't be considered very nice.


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## lolwut12345 (Feb 25, 2013)

Immerseyourself said:


> The problem with women's "non-verbal clues" is that they are non-verbal. In the definition of _initiating,_ non-verbal is not initiating unless you are a complete master of body language and can understand even the most subtle hint.
> I say it isn't initiating because it can easily be misinterpreted by the novice. _No one_ can misinterpret the words "Hey, you want to grab a cup of coffee" or "Hey, I was wondering if you wanted to catch a movie?"
> They are initiating if not out of romantic interest, than at least out of an interest in hanging out with you. Non-verbal clues are not of substance, and can easily fade away with no one knowing better.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha yeah well good luck with that. Good luck finding a woman who is decently good looking who is going to give as much as she can take.

If the woman is decently attractive, she'll have lots of men wanting to go out with her. Why would she date a guy who wants her to give just as much as she takes if she can instead date a man who will give her more than she will give in return?

The fact is relationships on the broad perspective are quite simple how they function. Men date women for sex, women date men for resources and status. It's really that simple when you look at it from the big picture.

Sure there are women who want an egalitarian relationship, but 99% of the time those women are ugly and don't have a lot of options.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

lolwut12345 said:


> Hahahaha yeah well good luck with that. Good luck finding a woman who is decently good looking who is going to give as much as she can take.
> 
> If the woman is decently attractive, she'll have lots of men wanting to go out with her. Why would she date a guy who wants her to give just as much as she takes if she can instead date a man who will give her more than she will give in return?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, your answer is exactly why I choose to go through life without a woman. I refuse to let someone parasite off me (regardless of gender) in that regard. We are an intelligent civilization that has risen far and will continue to do so, but in the very end we are ruled by our instincts and our sexual appetites. We are animals, often not much better than those creatures we deem "beasts". 
When I get thinking about it, it often leaves me disgusted.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Immerseyourself said:


> Unfortunately, your answer is exactly why I choose to go through life without a woman.


Don't know how you can live without women (if you are hetero, bi or pan).






Repressing your libido and desire for physical affection is a horrible state to be in... I know I used to do it when I was a muslim. I couldn't date outside marriage or masturbate. 

I saw that it often led to a dislike of sexually attractive in women (What I saw in others), you hate having the desire to have a women.


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## dpt727 (Jul 16, 2012)

I have no problem initiating or perusing a relationship. I would say, being confident is attractive. 
Being and extrovert, I am romantically attracted to introverts, so shyness is OK. Most of the the extrovert men I meet get friend zoned. 
Be yourself. :happy:Good luck to you!


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## Palaver (Jan 5, 2010)

Immerseyourself said:


> I don't want to play chess with a woman because I have no inclination of having my chess board swept clean by the rejection of an uninterested woman. I also don't have time in my life to play games.


If you are the novice that you claim to be, then you should start out as a novice with a open mind. That means you should approach not with a fear of rejection, but with another goal in mind. Setting up yourself up for a reward and not getting that reward will depress you. Therefore, set reasonable goals for each encounter that are not directly related to your self image. Also, women have more to offer than simple acceptance or rejection. They will qualify themselves before you and speak of their strengths or interests. This is their way of seeking approval, of saying take me or leave me. Women have their vulnerabilities too and recognizing their moment shows presence. If you are too preoccupied with your own self confidence, you will miss this.

It's the same message as before really. Making the encounter all about you will make you miss things and you will appear unnaturally stuck in your head due to that tunnel vision. Walking away having accomplished something, no matter how small, will get you into the habit of actually enjoying the approach--and that's what you need to break before you can start understanding women and yourself. There is something hidden about women that you've yet to appreciate. Make it your mission to discover it. Personally, I love their smiles the most, so I'm always smiling and playful. I usually get what I want.

Oh, I can sympathize about women not being "proactive" enough, but they do put a lot effort into their appearance--much more than guys. That is pretty close to meeting you halfway. Don't let it go to waste. I've seen girls who are nicely made up. They dance all night and yet when I glance away from my conversation too check on them, they are usually looking around for some guy to approach them. This is horrible. This is rejection to them. It hurts me to see it. You don't even try and you feel dejected. Imagine what they feel with all that visible effort? They can still have standards, but don't feel that they haven't skin in the game, literally.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Oh, I can sympathize about women not being "proactive" enough, but they do put a lot effort into their appearance--much more than guys. That is pretty close to meeting you halfway. Don't let it go to waste.


Damn good point dude.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

Palaver said:


> If you are the novice that you claim to be, then you should start out as a novice with a open mind. That means you should approach not with a fear of rejection, but with another goal in mind. Setting up yourself up for a reward and not getting that reward will depress you. Therefore, set reasonable goals for each encounter that are not directly related to your self image. Also, women have more to offer than simple acceptance or rejection. They will qualify themselves before you and speak of their strengths or interests. This is their way of seeking approval, of saying take me or leave me. Women have their vulnerabilities too and recognizing their moment shows presence. If you are too preoccupied with your own self confidence, you will miss this.
> 
> It's the same message as before really. Making the encounter all about you will make you miss things and you will appear unnaturally stuck in your head due to that tunnel vision. Walking away having accomplished something, no matter how small, will get you into the habit of actually enjoying the approach--and that's what you need to break before you can start understanding women and yourself. There is something hidden about women that you've yet to appreciate. Make it your mission to discover it. Personally, I love their smiles the most, so I'm always smiling and playful. I usually get what I want.
> 
> Oh, I can sympathize about women not being "proactive" enough, but they do put a lot effort into their appearance--much more than guys. That is pretty close to meeting you halfway. Don't let it go to waste. I've seen girls who are nicely made up. They dance all night and yet when I glance away from my conversation too check on them, they are usually looking around for some guy to approach them. This is horrible. This is rejection to them. It hurts me to see it. You don't even try and you feel dejected. Imagine what they feel with all that visible effort? They can still have standards, but don't feel that they haven't skin in the game, literally.


I appreciate the advice. The problem I run into is that on top of being pre-occupied with my mental space and my books, I work a job and live a lifestyle that tends to stress my weaker functions, often leaving me exhausted. 
I also go on and off with depression and self-esteem issues; It is kind of a fi-si loop (if you can say one exists) that brings idealistic comfort, if not addicting self-criticism, that also proccupies my time. I won't even go into the amount of work I put into volunteering (which also has to do with my lifestyle and with work) and I don't meet women that way.
I don't have the motivation or incentive to go after women. Building a new warddrobe, becoming fashion conscious, getting out there, building my emotional skills and my relationship skills, is too much effort. 
When I weigh things, and prioritize them, women are low on the scale, if they are even _on_ the scale, regardless of how much I may want a relationship, or what my pent-up sexual energies are at. 

Furthermore my ideologies get in the way, and I'm not willing to topple them and rebuild them back up in my current stage of life. Reading a book is cheap, beneficial, and can last me for a very long time. Dating a woman is expensive, requires good skills, takes up time in all areas of life, is unpredictable with mood swings, and can be stressful. So which which should I prioritize right now? What would you prioritize?

Dressing up, setting themselves up for approach, is all well and good and I can understand it takes a lot of effort on their part and can really blow at their self-esteem (if not approached) but initiating proactivity is needed on the part of women due to my scarce time, activity preferences, and ideologies. 
Intellectualism, knowledge, self-development, and my ideologies/mind, take precedence over another human being _potentially_ being in my life, particularly when the latter means _a lot_ of crazy effort on my part.

I don't like waste, particularly of the mind and a person's potential, but fortunately for women there are a lot of men out there and they should have no issues settling down. So waste on that part is not a big deal.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Don't know how you can live without women (if you are hetero, bi or pan).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol @ video. I often wonder about the objectivity of "The sexiest woman in the world", although the title seems to just speculate on it. You know, if you consider it, repressing your libido for a greater cause (e.g. developing your pool of knowledge, self-developing, pursuing other things, etc) does present a challenge and the "greater cause" can make you feel like you are achieving something amazing.


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## runnerveran (Dec 19, 2011)

Palaver said:


> Oh, I can sympathize about women not being "proactive" enough, but they do put a lot effort into their appearance--much more than guys.


Not really. They spend more time putting on make up, shaving, and all that jazz in the bathroom, but men spend more time, on average, exercising. The difference is even larger in college where men spend a considerably larger amount of time exercising (whether it's in the gym or as part of a sport team). So in the end, it averages out. If anything, men spend _slightly_ more time, on average, on their appearance than women.

In western society, for better or worse, men are just expected to put more effort in than women to attract a member of the opposite sex. A typical woman might grumble about the hours she spent fixing her hair and putting on her make up, all the while being completely clueless that the male pursuing her has spent an equal amount of time in the gym, plus _considerable_ additional time researching a spot for a first date, and going over in his mind interesting topics he can bring up if their is a lull in the conversation - after all, the man is expected to lead, at least at first.

(Once a man and woman are _already _in a relationship, I think that American society expects approximately equal effort from both).


American Time Use Survey Summary
http://time-spent.sciencedaily.com/...rticipating-in-sports-exercise-and-recreation
http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Survey_of_Diet_and_Exercise_Habits_in_a_College_Population.pdf


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Immerseyourself said:


> Lol @ video. I often wonder about the objectivity of "The sexiest woman in the world"


You analyze things too much.

,


> although the title seems to just speculate on it. You know, if you consider it, repressing your libido for a greater cause (e.g. developing your pool of knowledge, self-developing, pursuing other things, etc) does present a challenge and the "greater cause" can make you feel like you are achieving something amazing.


Why not have both? Many successful men like fucking.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> You analyze things too much.


A friend of mine has commented before that I analyze a lot. Others have told me I over-analyze things at times. You can cover so many different interesting avenues when you do that. Some things, like the video, can be viewed in different ways.




> Why not have both? Many successful men like fucking.


Because you often can't have both, or one interferes with the other. A relationship can stop you from doing many things. Sometimes I like to sit up during the night and ruminate...reflect...
I like to come and go; get things done when I need to.
Sometimes I need to stay late at work to get things done, and a relationship would be problematic in that regard.

Diving my nose into a book would also suffer, as attention and time would divert from books to a sweetheart. The only good news about a relationship here is that I would suffer less nose injuries. 

Sometimes I just like to kick back and realize that relationships can be counterproductive, that I can rise above human instincts, and that relationships are not the end-all-be-all. It isn't what life is about (it does create life though) because if life were about orgasms and screwing people then life could possibly have made us into conscious _beings (e.g. energy)_ without a physical body, that systematically go through orgasmic events on a constant basis. 

If you've ever done research into Tesla (one of the most brilliant minds in history, but one that doesn't get the credit he _deserves_) then you would find that he actually refused to date because it would interfere with his work. I kind of have the same mentality; Tesla realized that he could achieve great things, and that finding love would distract him.
Unfortunately, the human instinct to breed, as well as an INFP's mentality of romance and the mental dreamland, has me wanting a relationship; there are two opposing forces, often grating at my sanity.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Immerseyourself said:


> Sometimes I just like to kick back and realize that relationships can be counterproductive, that I can rise above human instincts, and that relationships are not the end-all-be-all.


Yeah we have a strange culture of denying every aspect about ourselves other than our thoughts in the west. As if we thoughts on a body, and our body is a horse to be metaphorically whipped by our will power to do our bidding. But thankfully trends like yoga, tai chi and mindfulness meditation are expanding our sense of self beyond our thoughts.

This explains the basic theory behind somatic therapy practices, you might find it interesting.






You seem like a book addict, so if you are interested in books on this subject I recommend;

In an unspoken voice by Peter Levine (I think this one will wet your appetite)

The revolutionary trauma release process by David Berceli

Depression and the body by Alexander Lowen

Somatics by Thomas Hannis

Narcissism; Denial of the true self by Alexander Lowen

The art of living consciously by Nathaniel Branden


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Yeah we have a strange culture of denying every aspect about ourselves other than our thoughts in the west. As if we thoughts on a body, and our body is a horse to be metaphorically whipped by our will power to do our bidding. But thankfully trends like yoga, tai chi and mindfulness meditation are expanding our sense of self beyond our thoughts.
> 
> This explains the basic theory behind somatic therapy practices, you might find it interesting.
> 
> ...


I think your post deviated off-course by a large margin, and what is the west?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Immerseyourself said:


> I think your post deviated off-course by a large margin, and what is the west?


Hmm... seems like you didn't understand what was getting at. Ah well.


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## Immerseyourself (Feb 12, 2013)

strangestdude said:


> Hmm... seems like you didn't understand what was getting at. Ah well.


I understand what you _mean_ with the self-criticism, and high standards/complex ideologies. I'm not sure about the reference, and depression has nothing to do with it.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

Immerseyourself said:


> I understand what you _mean_ with the self-criticism, and high standards/complex ideologies. I'm not sure about the reference, and depression has nothing to do with it.


Yeah you didn't get it (which might just be a failure of my communication skills). I can't make it any clearer that I have. It happens.


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## donkeybals (Jan 13, 2011)

kagemitsu said:


> Hey all,
> 
> so, I've grown tired of my permasingle status and, while I'm still in no position to attract anyone anywhere, was thinking about a reverse approach to dating.
> 
> ...


You don't have to be an "alpha" male to get girls man. In fact, I hate that term, it is so archaic. We aren't friggin' monkeys and it's the 21st century. Damn it. 

 

Anyway, I think the advice given in some of these posts have been great! Personally, I think you might be putting too much pressure on things, considering you are comfortable talking to some girls, but only the ones who aren't available.

Also, I think it's important to know what you are looking for in a girl. I look for certain qualities and traits, that are genuinely them, for example, if I notice they are consistently rude to others, but nice to me, that _may_ be a trait that I don't like, and once I get to know them a bit better, they'll go off on their own ways. So I look for caring/considerate, nice and polite to pretty much everyone.

But I think you may be right that you need to "man up", but it's not exactly manning up, if you just go into it with the attitude you are just talking and getting to know them.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

It doesn't matter what sex you are, if you want to be the chasee and not the chaser you have to *lure *the chaser. 

What would that *lure *be?

Humor? Flashy ways of dressing? Demonstration of wealth? Artsy delivery of vulnerability? Find your lure!  The chasers are everywhere. Some respond to flashy spinning things, and others like a deep voice. If you can't develop a *lure *of some type you are left with chasing as a role.

The pick up artists use confidence as a lure drowning the woman in it. Clearly, although confidence is always a plus, this technique is going to result in finding a disproportionate number of submissive female types. Not what the OP is after (presumably). 

The trainer video is better because determination is cute in a submissive and the more dominant ladies out there are going to think it's cute and you'll get better results. Determination as a *lure*. There are many!


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I like the girl to make the first move too often times, unless I'm really confident in what I'm doing, then I actually like showing off haha. If I'm nervous, I like a little help from the girl basically.

To answer your question, I basically sit at home every night, and on the weekends, training in things to make me more attractive. I feel like I'm a hell of a catch right now, however, what it really comes down to is having a girl I connect with, and they have to be okay with a guy that is sometimes passive.

Not that I'm "passive" but that I'm lost in thought about spirituality. That's just fact and nothing I will change about it.

Obviously if she plays coy it will make me want to chase her, as is just instinctual though, etc... And if I'm practiced and trained in taking the lead, then when I'm in that kind of mood, I can DO IT.

So I guess for me it's a mix of training to take the lead, but waiting for a girl that is okay with me not always taking the lead.

The girl I had a date with today, and it went really well. She actually was told by her sister that she should date me.

Just be you, and maybe some day your reputation will proceed you


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

I wish women would do it more often and more obviously, but it's just a pipe dream.


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## jennamax (Feb 26, 2013)

If you're looking for a decent relationship, you won't find it by someone simply coming onto you. Just like a guy approaching you on the street singing your praises is trouble, it's the same with women. You really don't want to be hit on like that, trust me. Best relationship you'll ever have is with someone who doesn't just like what you look like, but what's inside you


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## Dashing (Sep 19, 2011)

Talk. To. Them.

Pretend like they are just regular human beings like me* and you. A point I've found hard to pinpoint is:
- When do you make known that you're interested / attracted?
I'm getting the vibe that, unless you have a really sweet talk and a stunning body, you get labeled as a creep when trying to hit on a girl. Knowing that what I just said is complete bullshit (at least, I hope so), you should focus less on what you're trying to achieve, work without an agenda. Just get to know them with some playful banter. 

Of course this could end up looking like you're NOT interested. 

Meh, this ain't really my strong point, so I'll just stop now. (Never been of the flirting and hitting on strangers(can't say I haven't tried though.)).

*source needed.


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## isi1000 (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm permanent chastity for 12 years and a virgin.
Every month my wife made ​​a milking or ruined orgasm.
She presses rubber gloves to do more because I allowed to touch my cock.


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## Tridentus (Dec 14, 2009)

series0 said:


> Dress COMPLETELY normally, as if, and then ... wear an item on your neck that is obviously a leash collar.
> 
> It sounds like a joke right? Try it. Use it as a conversation piece. A collar. Try different collars to see which one provokes the most women or the type of women you like to come talk to you. I think you'd be surprised.


this is a good tip- wear things that women can comment on. i used to wear a bunch of things around my wrist which meant different things, and girls would always ask about those, and i have a tattoo on my arm which is the first thing girls talk about if they want to talk to me. wear distinctive (but not ultra-weird or anything) clothing and girls will come up and comment. i used to wear this







when i was 17-18. i wouldn't recommend wearing this if you're over 25ish mind, but clothes like this which make you stand out will get girls commenting and starting conversations with you, even when you're not really trying.

if it's halloween, or even if you're just having a laugh with some friends, a stand-out costume will get you loads of attention from girls.. they'll all come up and want to get their picture taken with you, and then they'll often start a conversation with you.

if you're a teenager, just go to some parties and hang out with your friends there- i always found it a turn-off but i remember loads of teenage girls always would want that story of how they pulled some guy at a party, and even when i wasn't trying i'd occasionally get girls hitting on me when they were drunk.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't "hit" on men I like, or find attractive. I act like their friend, with the bonus of hinting at that I find them attractive. I find hitting on people kind of degrading if I don't even know them. To me that just says "I find you attractive for sex only.". If you want a relationship with a woman, build up a friendship.

I have had men hit on me in the past, and then they decided not to make any sort of conversation, and kept referring back to me being attractive. *rolls eyes* Not only does that make me turn in the other direction, but it tells me he just wants sex. Even if he clearly wants to see if we could start something serious. This is not the way, at all.

Have conversations with me, and then hint that you find me attractive Lay some ground work. This is how I "hit" on men. 

If she is attracted to you, then it will happen. If she isn't, then there you go, but you now have a friend.


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