# The Existential Genius of Lana del Rey. ..



## sicksadworlds (May 4, 2015)

Really looking forward to listen to Honeymoon. Been listening to her a lot lately. (Also, she's most likely an ISFP just like me roud


----------



## Scarlet Eyes (May 15, 2015)

mhysa said:


> honeymoon actually leaked the other day! one could listen now if they were so inclined


Really? BRB, going to Google! 
I can't say I'm surprised. It seems like a lot of her songs have been leaked. Kind of the case with Marina and the Diamonds.


----------



## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

Scarlet Eyes said:


> Really? BRB, going to Google!
> I can't say I'm surprised. It seems like a lot of her songs have been leaked. Kind of the case with Marina and the Diamonds.


yeah, she has a serious problem with leaks lol. all of her albums have leaked early and she has 200+ demos and unused songs that have been leaked. i don't think she cares that much, but i'm surprised her team doesn't have it more under control.


----------



## SevSevens (Aug 5, 2015)

No one in the public domain can be considered existential. In fact, anything that is promoted on television or on any form of public media is by virtue of its essence anti-existential.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

some people need to find better things to write about, nobody in their good sense would watch music videos or attempt to derive meaning from them


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mhysa said:


> i love her and i think she's certainly one of the most enigmatic and unique figures in music right now.
> @Thalassa have you listened to her early, unreleased/leaked music? her may jailer album and some of her acoustic stuff as lizzy grant, from the _young like me_ and _from the end_ EPs as well as _lana del rey AKA lizzy grant_, the album? if not i HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend, they simultaneously shed a lot of light on her past and raise even more questions, as well as being beautiful and eerie songs. these were recorded when she was 20 (my age! crazy!) and they're among my favorite work she's ever done.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah Get Drunk is one of my favorites, and honestly, and I swear this, I was one of her Lizzy Grant YouTube fans. I guess I fell prey to the set up, but I'm glad because what I saw was You Can Be the Boss, and I'm like who is this woman, she's a real person, she made this herself and this is incredible. ..I also liked Kinda Outta Luck...so I was actually late on making the connection to Born to Die, but once I did I found myself having to explain her to people, and they didn't want to listen, and it was all "lame SNL performance lol" ...and I saw that insecure image she was projecting at that time, I was taken aback by the orange jumpsuit interview. ..but I get it now. I've seen clips of her performing live in her early 20s, (like Trash Magic) I saw that rawness, her shyness, and Mermaid Motel is actually one of my other favorites of her old stuff. ..I actually was so happy as I kept discovering more and more stuff (like She's Not Me, Serial Killer, Jealous Girl...stuff with a totally different style). I like some of her experimental songs, like Noir...and I didn't stumble on to May Jailer until about a year ago. I was glad when she released Ultraviolence, because I felt it was like her vindication. ...it's very hard for people to "get it" if they have only heard Born to Die singles, and not even listened to the entire album or Paradise version. ..but even the heavy, produced pop stuff falls into place when you have tried to scope out her work. 

I can't find an unpitched version of Summer of Sam, but I did find one of Dum Dum.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> some people need to find better things to write about, nobody in their good sense would watch music videos or attempt to derive meaning from them


Is this one of your jokes, or do you think some forms of artistic expression are more valid than others?


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> Is this one of your jokes, or do you think some forms of artistic expression are more valid than others?


I prefer poems, they are more direct, and unlike rap they don't normally promote rape cultures on the internets


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mhysa said:


> honeymoon actually leaked the other day! one could listen now if they were so inclined


She's already released High by the Beach, Terrence Loves You, Music to Watch Boys To and Honeymoon. ..and the entire album was being sold in some countries on the 16th, so I'm not sure if it's a real leak. Regardless I pay for her albums, I respect her.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> I prefer poems, they are more direct, and unlike rap they don't normally promote rape cultures on the internets


Lana del Rey isn't a rap artist, and she actually has a great voice. I've seen her live, she sounds pretty much the same.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> Lana del Rey isn't a rap artist, and she actually has a great voice. I've seen her live, she sounds pretty much the same.


Never watch someone live. You want to hear the music not some annoying clapping and cheering. Why do they sell those songs live? It's not s good thing ya know?


----------



## 66393 (Oct 17, 2013)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> it must be exhausting carrying around that kind of pure hatred for people.
> 
> and you can't even get her stage name right lols


Alright, calm down Children Of The Butthurt. I don't hate her, and I never wished any misfortunes would befall her. If you are incapable of performing even the most basic thought processes, then I ask that you don't bother responding to me.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

SevSevens said:


> No one in the public domain can be considered existential. In fact, anything that is promoted on television or on any form of public media is by virtue of its essence anti-existential.


Existentialism isn't my forte, this was the opinion of the writer in the OP. I just appreciated her arguments.


----------



## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Actually she did that great gatsby song so she can't be horrible but I think Soulja Boy is better


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Rala said:


> I know almost nothing about her, but I checked some of her music and I don't like it. I think it's mostly her lifeless voice mixed with that submissive vibe that's present in most of her lyrics and that I can't relate to at all. Just my opinion.


My sister also doesn't like it...she's like boring, weird. ..but she's respectful about it, like you are, she knows it's just her taste.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Grandmaster Yoda said:


> Never watch someone live. You want to hear the music not some annoying clapping and cheering. Why do they sell those songs live? It's not s good thing ya know?


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

coy said:


> Alright, calm down Children Of The Butthurt. I don't hate her, and I never wished any misfortunes would befall her. If you are incapable of performing even the most basic thought processes, then I ask that you don't bother responding to me.


----------



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Thalassa said:


> The modernist was in search of an abstract truth of life whereas the post-modernist did not believe in abstract truth or in universal truth. In modernism, there was an attempt to develop a coherent worldview. But in post-modernism, there is an attempt to remove the differences between the high and the low.


Yes! Postmodernism is a word that is thrown around a lot, but (and this is what I find ironic whenever I discuss it) I think we have to remember it in the context of Jean Louis Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition which deals primarily with the dissolution of the meta or "grand" narrative. Naturally, this makes discussion of postmodernism confusing, since attributing postmodernism to Lyotard violates Lyotard's central idea... which is that there is no center.

That said, I don't like how postmodernism has become a derogatory term, although that is another can of worms.

Now, for Lana del Rey. I don't really see her work as postmodernist or striving to meet the direct aim of postmodernism as against the metanarrative. She's too consistent for that. If we call del Rey postmodern, then we would have to call everything postmodern (which does happen and I can't say whether that is "right" or "wrong" since postmodernism by its very nature strives for pluralism in opposition of a central narrative.

del Rey I simply see as a nostalgic and an aesthete (I tend to think ISFP in that regard). Her style is clearly, painfully retro. The home movie quality of Summertime Sadness, for instance, nostalgic, too for things like The Graduate. There is a melancholy, pining desire for the idyllic naivete of youth, obviously centered around young love. I'd actually say Lana del Rey is too consistent to be considered _traditional _postmodern, but that, of course, will eventually devolve into an argument of what traditional postmodern is, since it's a bit of an oxymoron.

The problem, I think, is that postmodernism is somewhat of the "be-all-end-all" in some regard, since it is something of short-circuited logic: 

If the notion of postmodernism is in rejecting metanarrative, isn't the rejection of metanarratives _*itself *_a metanarrative?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Extras (since I love studying postmodernism), and in true postmodern spirit (or not), the myriad of view upon postmodernism (or not):

Postmodernism is dead | Prospect Magazine

Lyotard's intro to The Postmodern Condition...

* *







> The object of this study is the condition of knowledge in the most highly developed societies. I have decided to use the word postmodern to describe that condition. The word is in current use on the American continent among sociologists and critics; it designates the state of our culture following the transformations which, since the end of the nineteenth century, have altered the game rules for science, literature, and the arts. The present study will place these transformations in the context of the crisis of narratives.
> 
> 
> Science has always been in conflict with narratives. Judged by the yardstick of science, the majority of them prove to be fables. But to the extent that science does not restrict itself to stating useful regularities and seeks the truth, it is obliged to legitimate the rules of its own game. It then produces a discourse of legitimation with respect to its own status, a discourse called philosophy. I will use the term modern to designate any science that legitimates itself with reference to a metadiscourse of this kind making an explicit appeal to some grand narrative, such as the dialectics of Spirit, the hermeneutics of meaning, the emancipation of the rational or working subject, or the creation of wealth. For example, the rule of consensus between the sender and addressee of a statement with truth-value is deemed acceptable if it is cast in terms of a possible unanimity between rational minds: this is the Enlightenment narrative, in which the hero of knowledge works toward a good ethico-political end -- universal peace. *As can be seen from this example, if a metanarrative implying a philosophy of history is used to legitimate knowledge, questions are raised concerning the validity of the institutions governing the social bond: these must be legitimated as well. Thus justice is consigned to the grand narrative in the same way as truth. *
> ...





I think there's an interesting connection to how postmodernism correlates with the Holy Spirit in the trinity, dealing with the notion of religious pluralism... a bit of a tangent and probably deserving its own thread, however.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

hal0hal0 said:


> Yes! Postmodernism is a word that is thrown around a lot, but (and this is what I find ironic whenever I discuss it) I think we have to remember it in the context of Jean Louis Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition which deals primarily with the dissolution of the meta or "grand" narrative. Naturally, this makes discussion of postmodernism confusing, since attributing postmodernism to Lyotard violates Lyotard's central idea... which is that there is no center.
> 
> That said, I don't like how postmodernism has become a derogatory term, although that is another can of worms.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I'm not a big fan of "post modern" ...in fact when babblingbrook posted it I almost wanted to laugh, seemed like something from a movie, like someone at a dinner party confusedly interjecting, "oh yes post modern, terribly post modern" to sound cool or savvy or intellectual (no offense intended to babblingbrook, I just think if we categorize Elizabeth Grant and her full narrative ...this is is much closer to the Modern period. ..construction of a cohesive narrative, not deconstruction)...her interest in sympathetic, romanticized nationalism as an art form is not at all post modern. It's as though she wants to weave together an aesthetic dream of America rather than deconstruction. Plus all the stuff you said about personal nostalgia, romance, sex, love, just very personal and subjective expression.


----------



## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> Yeah Get Drunk is one of my favorites, and honestly, and I swear this, I was one of her Lizzy Grant YouTube fans. I guess I fell prey to the set up, but I'm glad because what I saw was You Can Be the Boss, and I'm like who is this woman, she's a real person, she made this herself and this is incredible. ..I also liked Kinda Outta Luck...so I was actually late on making the connection to Born to Die, but once I did I found myself having to explain her to people, and they didn't want to listen, and it was all "lame SNL performance lol" ...and I saw that insecure image she was projecting at that time, I was taken aback by the orange jumpsuit interview. ..but I get it now. I've seen clips of her performing live in her early 20s, (like Trash Magic) I saw that rawness, her shyness, and Mermaid Motel is actually one of my other favorites of her old stuff. ..I actually was so happy as I kept discovering more and more stuff (like She's Not Me, Serial Killer, Jealous Girl...stuff with a totally different style). I like some of her experimental songs, like Noir...and I didn't stumble on to May Jailer until about a year ago. I was glad when she released Ultraviolence, because I felt it was like her vindication. ...it's very hard for people to "get it" if they have only heard Born to Die singles, and not even listened to the entire album or Paradise version. ..but even the heavy, produced pop stuff falls into place when you have tried to scope out her work.
> 
> I can't find an unpitched version of Summer of Sam, but I did find one of Dum Dum.


lol that's amazing that you tuned into her before she made the transition to Lana Del Rey! i found her right after she released the song born to die as a single, and i can't explain it but there was just something about her that i was immediately drawn to and hooked on. with that song/video in particular, i was in this really terrible, abusive relationship at the time and i felt completely isolated and as if no one could truly understand or articulate what i was going through. her music managed to capture some of the loneliness, the desperation, the hopeless devotion, and the complete, total unconditional love despite the abuse. she was the only singer i knew of that seemed to understand the thin line between love and fear that i knew so well. i decided to find out everything i could about her (she has a lot of lore, such a mysterious and storied past), and that's how i found out about all her past projects. i still follow her very closely.

i love that she's so eccentric, but not because she's trying to be that way to be cool or more appealing. i think she's genuinely a total atypical weirdo, and i love it lol. 

i also was happy when she put out ultraviolence, because it did seem to redeem her a lot, although it's not the album i care for the most in her discography. i can actually barely listen to it because it reminds me so much of the way my life was at one time - abuse, drugs, violence, the whole bit. i do wish that she didn't have to take on a certain sound and style to be taken seriously by snobbier high-brow critics, because i think her work was always brilliant, but, well. at least she's getting the recognition she deserves at all.



Thalassa said:


> She's already released High by the Beach, Terrence Loves You, Music to Watch Boys To and Honeymoon. ..and the entire album was being sold in some countries on the 16th, so I'm not sure if it's a real leak. Regardless I pay for her albums, I respect her.


i think it actually hit the internet on the 15th. my general rule when it comes to obtaining music... with artists i truly believe in and respect, if the music becomes available earlier than planned, i'll listen to it at that time just because i get too hungry for new material from them. then i'll always buy it when it gets an official release, as i plan to do with honeymoon. 

speaking of music to watch boys to, i'm obsessed. i think it's one of my new favorite songs she's ever made.


----------



## sicksadworlds (May 4, 2015)

Btw, if someone wants to listen to Honeymoon, it's already on Spotify :wink:


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mhysa said:


> lol that's amazing that you tuned into her before she made the transition to Lana Del Rey! i found her right after she released the song born to die as a single, and i can't explain it but there was just something about her that i was immediately drawn to and hooked on. with that song/video in particular, i was in this really terrible, abusive relationship at the time and i felt completely isolated and as if no one could truly understand or articulate what i was going through. her music managed to capture some of the loneliness, the desperation, the hopeless devotion, and the complete, total unconditional love despite the abuse. she was the only singer i knew of that seemed to understand the thin line between love and fear that i knew so well. i decided to find out everything i could about her (she has a lot of lore, such a mysterious and storied past), and that's how i found out about all her past projects. i still follow her very closely.
> 
> i love that she's so eccentric, but not because she's trying to be that way to be cool or more appealing. i think she's genuinely a total atypical weirdo, and i love it lol.
> 
> ...


I had a similar visceral response to her. Like I wanted to be her friend, or "love at first sight"...I think the fact that as Lizzy Grant she was so accessible, real and vulnerable she seemed like someone who would be easy to connect with. She still projects that vibe in a different way, that's why some of her fans love her so much, people have credited her with saving their lives. I do know I relate to a great deal of what she sings about, and I have played Ultraviolence to pieces, I mean if it was vinyl it would be warped...the sound you call snobby and high brow is actually the sound she apparently wanted to do. That's her authentic idea, in fact it was the slick produced pop album that was more compromise for her, apparently, to get known...I do hate though when people can't appreciate some of her old stuff like You Can Be the Boss or Trash Magic. ..those songs are truly alternative to what's been happening in the mainstream, though she's still called an alternative artist.

That's really awesome that you understand her magnetism....I definitely have been listening to Music to Watch Boys To and High by the Beach.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

sicksadworlds said:


> Btw, if someone wants to listen to Honeymoon, it's already on Spotify :wink:


It's past midnight in New York. I'm going to try to buy it now. The Internet isn't like on California time lulz.


----------



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Thalassa said:


> her interest in sympathetic, romanticized nationalism as an art form is not at all post modern. It's as though she wants to weave together an aesthetic dream of America rather than deconstruction. Plus all the stuff you said about personal nostalgia, romance, sex, love, just very personal and subjective expression.


Precisely. del Rey is decidedly Americana. If I'm making up words that sound right, Neo-Americana, or something. I'm not much of a music person so much of my perspective is filtered through film, actually, which I have more experience with. I tend to pick on Summertime Sadness in particular, because of the Super 8. Whether del Rey was actually influenced by it or not, I see similarities, aesthetically speaking, to Wim Wender's Paris, Texas which also utilized Super 8 for the purposes of nostalgia.

To me, Super 8 is a terrific stylistic tool; I'm quite fond of it myself, since it captures the notion of the "home movie" that is somewhat ubiquitous with Americana (i.e., pool parties, grainy videos of that outing to the beach, road trips, etc.):










Lana del Rey's work lives in this bizarre landscape that, taking extreme liberties in my interpretation, are doubly nostalgic. On the one hand, I see her aesthetic as rooted in the 1970s-1980s, but that nostalgia is itself nostalgic for an even older time... the 1940s-1950s.

Marilyn Monroe, Five Easy Pieces, Easy Rider, Two-Lane Blacktop, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (somewhat). Nevertheless, I think del Rey's nostalgia originates in the 1970s-1980s (after all, she was an 80s child), which saw a revival of neo-noir (which itself evokes the time period of actual film noir, which is historically from 1940-1959):

Body Heat:

















Blood Simple (of course!):









I wonder if Lana del Rey's pseudonym is at all influenced by Lana Turner, most famous probably for The Postman Always Rings Twice:









Which itself was remade in the 1980s, go figure. And, of course, Mulholland Dr. (David Lynch is the obvious influence that people like to cite, but I tend to see John Cassavetes as well).










Film noir I consider a modernist text echoing existentialism... specifically, film noir was a subconscious stylistic film movement that attempted to capture the pessimism and disillusionment with War and post-War Americana (and some British, but film noir is decidedly an American movement). This is why film noirs dealt chiefly with the antihero, femme fatale, and loss of faith in authority (i.e., corrupted cops, romanticizing of marginal figures, etc.).

The images del Rey pulls from are "throwaway" in some regard, but this isn't a pop art superficiality, per se, but a statement about the superficiality itself. Let's say you call someone superficial... perhaps you are then missing something? We are all human, even the most superficial, and it's a story and experience. In a way, I consider her somewhat akin to Roy Lichtenstein (who yes, I am a fan of, because I see in Lichtenstein a humanist capturing the sadness of a moment, transfixed by the everyday....

I'm not fond of arguments that either praise for "depth" or criticize for "shallowness" because... emotions are not necessarily deep. Sadness is often times simply sadness, but to me, that doesn't really detract from its beauty, _per se_.









^How is the sentiment of expressing hopelessness, purely and simply, _*not *_an expression of a very important and ubiquitous part of the human experience? (if admittedly mostly just copying it from a comic strip, lol, but that, to me, does not detract from the meaning or emotion contained _within _it)

Lichtenstein was construably a "superficial" artist. Indeed, the debate still rages on whether he was the "world's worst artist". 

Mountain Dew, Pepsi-Cola, Super 8... it evokes disposable cameras and those "throwaway" moments that are nevertheless ingrained in one's personal experience, and it is precisely that disposable Americana that cements del Rey's style. The sweet, ever-so-brief moment, and the fondness towards the memory of it, reign supreme in del Rey's style. 

It's pretty easy, for me at least, to see the bittersweet pattern in Lana del Rey's work, which is one of loss and a yearning to return to those oh-so-brief moments of bliss... the Summertime between "real life" where the youth wander aimlessly, at a loss, perhaps, of their purpose in life.





Literature reference? I would say Lolita comes close, since Nabokov's prose is utterly sumptuous, sweet cherry pies... Nabokov is junk food for the soul. I remember reading Lolita and thinking: Wow, this prose is so delicious! Granted, I prefer Pale Fire, but Lolita is pretty memorable.



> *“Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta. She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita. Did she have a precursor? She did, indeed she did. In point of fact, there might have been no Lolita at all had I not loved, one summer, an initial girl-child. In a princedom by the sea. Oh when? About as many years before Lolita was born as my age was that summer. You can always count on a murderer for a fancy prose style. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit number one is what the seraphs, the misinformed, simple, noble-winged seraphs, envied. Look at this tangle of thorns.”
> *


Ew, did I just turn this post into a pretentious undergrad's awkward thesis on pop art? How very postmodern.

Oh, pshhh... how did I not see this connection either? Veronica Lake, well known for the "peekaboo" style, sort of straddles the fence between shyness and seduction, for instance, and is known for several film noir roles, including in This Gun for Hire.


----------



## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

Thalassa said:


> the sound you call snobby and high brow is actually the sound she apparently wanted to do. That's her authentic idea, in fact it was the slick produced pop album that was more compromise for her, apparently, to get known...I do hate though when people can't appreciate some of her old stuff like You Can Be the Boss or Trash Magic. ..those songs are truly alternative to what's been happening in the mainstream, though she's still called an alternative artist.


oh, i don't think the sound is snobby or high-brow, i like the sound a lot. i just think the critics and a lot of people who hated her when she first became well-known are snobby and high-brow for not really taking her seriously as an artist or a woman until she worked with certain people (the guy from the black keys who produced ultraviolence) and made music in the vein of a more generally respected genre than straight-up pop or chamber pop.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

hal0hal0 said:


> Precisely. del Rey is decidedly Americana. If I'm making up words that sound right, Neo-Americana, or something. I'm not much of a music person so much of my perspective is filtered through film, actually, which I have more experience with. I tend to pick on Summertime Sadness in particular, because of the Super 8. Whether del Rey was actually influenced by it or not, I see similarities, aesthetically speaking, to Wim Wender's Paris, Texas which also utilized Super 8 for the purposes of nostalgia.
> 
> To me, Super 8 is a terrific stylistic tool; I'm quite fond of it myself, since it captures the notion of the "home movie" that is somewhat ubiquitous with Americana (i.e., pool parties, grainy videos of that outing to the beach, road trips, etc.):
> 
> ...


Wow thanks for this, need to read it again, only scanned it quickly. ..but yes Americana...and Lolita is more than what it seems, I don't think it's "junk food"...she also references Jack Keroauc and Oscar Wilde. ..she studied metaphysics, her references hold some kind of meaningful weight...the taste in my mouth that I get from Honeymoon just having listened it to it kind of jumping around for the first time are things like "sentimental 50s/60s"..."Audrey Hepburn"..."Lawrence Welk"...Italian giallos from the 60s. ..she's always retro, and Ultraviolence was also a "mellow" album, but Honeymoon is sweeter. She went for a different angle this time. Early seasons of Mad Men.

"Salvatore" really made an impression on me.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mhysa said:


> oh, i don't think the sound is snobby or high-brow, i like the sound a lot. i just think the critics and a lot of people who hated her when she first became well-known are snobby and high-brow for not really taking her seriously as an artist or a woman until she worked with certain people (the guy from the black keys who produced ultraviolence) and made music in the vein of a more generally respected genre than straight-up pop or chamber pop.


True. Because some of the pop on Born to Die is pretty intricate. ..there's straight up candy like Diet Mountain Dew (one of my favorite "happy songs")...but particularly the Paradise edition, listening to Million Dollar Man and Yayo...her vocals on those two...and National Anthem somehow NEVER gets old to me, I'm surprised it wasn't a bigger hit, but I think it's another song that was interpreted as "shallow" ...wrongly, imo, but whatever. ..Blue Jeans pretty much summarizes her entire moody/sexy/Americana effect...Born to Die is a good album....but Ultraviolence as an album is musically unique in its usage of a seven piece live band, no usage of autotune...and conceptually listened to *as an album* it's pretty powerful, though it didn't really have too many singles. 

I like Music to Watch Boys To on Honeymoon, but Salvatore and Freak are great...the only thing that's rubbing me the wrong way is that she put a cover on this album. ..she's notorious for doing good covers (like Chelsea Hotel #2) ...but I don't care for it. I want to know why, and I am guessing the song just has deep personal meaning for her.


----------



## Maxxie (Nov 29, 2014)

I seriously wanna get stoned and see her live. I think she's amazing though I don't really listen to her and my favorite song of her's is actually a cover (Once Upon a Dream.)


----------



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

double post, because of some database error...


----------



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Thalassa said:


> @_babblingbrook_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No need to take offense if something can be considered as postmodern. Your avatar can be considered as highly postmodern as well. There is no need to throw around words like postmodernism, if I don't find it appropriate. I did study both existentialism and postmodernism quite extensively.

Also @hal0hal0

Postmodernism is centered around the image. Her image is a hyperreal pastiche of nostalgia and antiquity. The image is just as important, if not more important than her music is. She presents herself as a copy and an amalgation of Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, John Wayne, Jesus, Adam, Eve, Allen Ginsberg, Jacqueline Kennedy, etc. In this mishmash of identity and history, the original, and indeed, any sort of metanarrative and differences between 'high' and 'low', disappears.


----------



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Thalassa said:


> @_babblingbrook_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No need to take offense if something can be considered as postmodern. Your avatar can be considered as highly postmodern as well. There is no need to throw around words like postmodernism, if I don't find it appropriate. I did study both existentialism and postmodernism quite extensively.

Also @hal0hal0

Postmodernism is centered around the image. Her image is a hyperreal pastiche of nostalgia and antiquity. The image is just as important, if not more important than her music is. She presents herself as a copy and an amalgation of Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, John Wayne, Jesus, Adam, Eve, Allen Ginsberg, Jacqueline Kennedy, etc. In this mishmash of identity and history, the original, and indeed, any sort of metanarrative and differences between 'high' and 'low', disappears.


----------



## CrystallineSheep (Jul 8, 2012)

You are looking at the biggest Lana Del Rey fan. OMG  

I first listened to Lana after hearing all the controversy surrounding her. At first, I liked the sound of her music but it wasn't love at first listen then slowly, I became so obsessed with her music, her image etc. Lana Del Rey is a walking, breathing embodiment of romantic literature and music. She completely drowns herself in art in the way she lives her life and creates her music. It is more like envisioning your life in connection and as a reflection of existing art that stem back into existing of reality of people's lives. It is kind of a vicious cycle of the ideas that life is art and art is life. I completely feel connected to her in that regard. Like how we wallow, without shame, in the romantics of life. She isn't necessarily trying to glorify domestic violence or whatever people accuse her of but some people just naturally, can't help, but view everything in their life as a poetic statement and just see it through a kaleidoscope of emotions and dreams. Lana seems to value nostalgia a lot but she seems to appreciate the present and the future just as equally. It is almost like she views time as non-linear and interrelated. I could go on forever about Lana and everything else but it be a giant post of me rambling forever XD


----------



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Thalassa said:


> Wow thanks for this, need to read it again, only scanned it quickly. ..but yes Americana...and Lolita is more than what it seems, I don't think it's "junk food"...she also references Jack Keroauc and Oscar Wilde. ..she studied metaphysics, her references hold some kind of meaningful weight...the taste in my mouth that I get from Honeymoon just having listened it to it kind of jumping around for the first time are things like "sentimental 50s/60s"..."Audrey Hepburn"..."Lawrence Welk"...Italian giallos from the 60s. ..she's always retro, and Ultraviolence was also a "mellow" album, but Honeymoon is sweeter. She went for a different angle this time. Early seasons of Mad Men.
> 
> "Salvatore" really made an impression on me.


Oh, haha, I tend to be somewhat facetious whenever I talk about "depth" vs. "shallow/superficial" because I don't get the arguments some people make, nor am I fond of preserving them as mutually exclusive (i.e., why not merge the superficial with the deep?). What I mean is that Lolita's prose in particular is some of the sweetest I've ever read. Nabokove imbues each frickin' sentence with the sort of TLC of a confectionary artisan. It's like he's making the most opulent of cakes.

I often see appraisals of work in terms of depth or superficiality, but for me, all I really care about is what feels interesting, unique, exciting or presents things in a fascinating way. Calling something superficial isn't, per se, a criticism, just as calling something deep isn't, per se, a compliment. Either can be good or bad, to me.

Similarly, "style vs. substance." What if the style _*is *_the substance?

Taking Lolita, for instance, the style becomes critical to the actual meat or "substance" of the book. The book does an obscenely excellent job at capturing Humbert's perspective; to me, that's what makes the book great, is just how well that opulent prose captures his subjective lens perfectly. 

If I had to describe the mental atmosphere of both del Rey and Lolita with a single word (which I am fond of doing), it would be this: _

Sanctuary_.

Both works exist in this heavily subjective frame of mind that seeks to turn that inner space into a "room of one's own" or sanctuary, in a sense, regardless of how they may appear to the outside world (i.e., pedophilia, del Rey's intoxication with the thrill of escape or "juvenile fantasy"... I'm thinking of American or whatever it was, where her heaven and her bliss is out in some roadside diner). del Rey's subject matter, for instance, craves that little back corner in her mind, those memories tucked away ever so carefully, that are held closely, coveted and raised to the level of personal mythos, similar to how Humbert Humbert covets the idealized image of his Lo (even when she's a total brat).



babblingbrook said:


> Also @_hal0hal0_
> 
> Postmodernism is centered around the image. Her image is a hyperreal pastiche of nostalgia and antiquity. The image is just as important, if not more important than her music is. She presents herself as a copy and an amalgation of Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, John Wayne, Jesus, Adam, Eve, Allen Ginsberg, Jacqueline Kennedy, etc. In this mishmash of identity and history, the original, and indeed, any sort of metanarrative and differences between 'high' and 'low', disappears.


I don't disagree (and our very discussion is postmodern in spirit, is it not?) The internet allows for pluralism, and the reason I actually consider myself (if I _had_ to consider myself anything) a postmodernist, is because I value multiple interpretations and simultaneously existing, if contradictory realities/perspectives. I like new spins on the old stuff. 

I would actually say that postmodernism is more a logical puzzle, which is why I think it's fun to think about.

For instance, if we attempt to pin postmodernism to any one thing, like "image" or "consistency" or "deconstruction" then doesn't that violate its premise? As I said, isn't calling postmodernism the deconstruction of metanarratives _itself _a metanarrative?


----------



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

I can see the comparison to David Lynch only in this context, for his films can be filed under postmodern cinema, i.e. Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.

But I do not understand the existential implications of her work, neither does the author give us any arguments and here I have to assume the writer of the article isn't well versed in existential philosophy at all.

For existentialism in cinema, look into Taxi Driver or Woman in the Dunes. Taxi Driver comes closest to introducing and bringing existentialism into popular culture I think.

For New Sincerity in music, Daniel Johnston, Okkervil River and Conor Oberst (Bright Eyes) are a couple of candidates.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

hal0hal0 said:


> Oh, haha, I tend to be somewhat facetious whenever I talk about "depth" vs. "shallow/superficial" because I don't get the arguments some people make, nor am I fond of preserving them as mutually exclusive (i.e., why not merge the superficial with the deep?). What I mean is that Lolita's prose in particular is some of the sweetest I've ever read. Nabokove imbues each frickin' sentence with the sort of TLC of a confectionary artisan. It's like he's making the most opulent of cakes.
> 
> I often see appraisals of work in terms of depth or superficiality, but for me, all I really care about is what feels interesting, unique, exciting or presents things in a fascinating way. Calling something superficial isn't, per se, a criticism, just as calling something deep isn't, per se, a compliment. Either can be good or bad, to me.
> 
> ...


I will give you a longer response later, but I absolutely have to address your pedestrian assessment of Lolita. ..I'm sorry, I majored in literature. . And Lolita is not a trashy paperback novel about a pedophile. .it's a portrait of a man society deems evil, from a more sympathetic point of view that makes Humbert human...Nabokov explains Humberts conditions, and meanwhile makes him appropriately ridiculous, and later repentative...without dehumanizing him to someone who is to be burned at the stake. So let's start there, with Nabokov addressing the problem of human evil with compassion and perspective, a sort of loving the sinner while hating the sin...Lolita is also a critcism of empty capitalism from a European perspective. ..Humberts mocking of Lolita is Nabokov scrutinizing America. ..Nabokov was a Russian writer, and Lolita was intentionally published entirely in English to start for a very good reason. Russian writers sometimes did this to make a point, like Pushkins French, English, Russian Eugene Onegin was part of the point of the narrative. ..

People make a similar mistake with Lana del Rey. I think she appreciates when people love her just for the music...especially her teenaged fans...but she's extremely frustrated and used to get hurt by adults not understanding her more complex narrative ("they judge me by the colors like a picture book, like they forgot to read" is an extremely pertinent statement she made about this in her lyrics)...I don't know if she's hurt more by the ignorance, or just the cynicism of our culture as an Fi type.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

babblingbrook said:


> No need to take offense if something can be considered as postmodern. Your avatar can be considered as highly postmodern as well. There is no need to throw around words like postmodernism, if I don't find it appropriate. I did study both existentialism and postmodernism quite extensively.
> 
> Also @hal0hal0
> 
> Postmodernism is centered around the image. Her image is a hyperreal pastiche of nostalgia and antiquity. The image is just as important, if not more important than her music is. She presents herself as a copy and an amalgation of Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, John Wayne, Jesus, Adam, Eve, Allen Ginsberg, Jacqueline Kennedy, etc. In this mishmash of identity and history, the original, and indeed, any sort of metanarrative and differences between 'high' and 'low', disappears.


Existentialism was born out of Modernism, not Post Modernism, so I don't see existentialism as intrinsically post modern. ..she does have a metanarrative and I don't believe she's trying to blow these up as meaningless or as all things having equal meaning, but rather attempting to construct a cohesive narrative about seemingly disparate aspects of American culture. ..I do believe she was attempting to remind people, particularly young people, sour on America about what makes this country beautiful and great...to separate love of America from the Bush administration. ..she took a side, but made it clear her "side" wasn't necessarily fueled by authoritarian hatred of an enemy. I think she depicts just how deeply capitalism is ingrained in our positive consciousness, that it's not this separate evil monster, but simply *can* be twisted that way...and she looks to history to explain who she is and who we are, which is a feature of Modernism. 

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, though.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

IndustrialClef said:


> You are looking at the biggest Lana Del Rey fan. OMG
> 
> I first listened to Lana after hearing all the controversy surrounding her. At first, I liked the sound of her music but it wasn't love at first listen then slowly, I became so obsessed with her music, her image etc. Lana Del Rey is a walking, breathing embodiment of romantic literature and music. She completely drowns herself in art in the way she lives her life and creates her music. It is more like envisioning your life in connection and as a reflection of existing art that stem back into existing of reality of people's lives. It is kind of a vicious cycle of the ideas that life is art and art is life. I completely feel connected to her in that regard. Like how we wallow, without shame, in the romantics of life. She isn't necessarily trying to glorify domestic violence or whatever people accuse her of but some people just naturally, can't help, but view everything in their life as a poetic statement and just see it through a kaleidoscope of emotions and dreams. Lana seems to value nostalgia a lot but she seems to appreciate the present and the future just as equally. It is almost like she views time as non-linear and interrelated. I could go on forever about Lana and everything else but it be a giant post of me rambling forever XD


Yes and I think that's why she's compared to David Lynch...I don't think David Lynch promotes violence but simply quietly illustrates how it's part of life, how it does provoke different emotions in us, how we deal with it through romantic archetypes...like murder mysteries, or the specific image of Laura Palmer relating back to the Black Dahlia or the way people often especially see the murder of a white woman of childbearing years as horrifically tragic, and leaves it to us to be smart enough to understand we can't help wanting to protect the perpetuation of our own tribe. ..I don't think he's mocking or deconstructing it, I think he's saying here look this is a part of the human condition, you can't ignore it. I was wondering when Lana was going to get to guns, and of course she addresses "gun" as a larger than life archetype in High by the Beach, not like oh here's a cautionary tale involving handguns, but here's a ridiculous Hollywood bazooka and me expressing my very human frustration of being stalked by the press...like Nabokov, she's trying to promote empathy for the sinner, I think...she's not at all saying "let's be violent and shoot people" as a recommendation. If anything she comes across as extremely kind and loving.


----------



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Thalassa said:


> Existentialism was born out of Modernism, not Post Modernism, so I don't see existentialism as intrinsically post modern. ..she does have a metanarrative and I don't believe she's trying to blow these up as meaningless or as all things having equal meaning, but rather attempting to construct a cohesive narrative about seemingly disparate aspects of American culture. ..I do believe she was attempting to remind people, particularly young people, sour on America about what makes this country beautiful and great...to separate love of America from the Bush administration. ..she took a side, but made it clear her "side" wasn't necessarily fueled by authoritarian hatred of an enemy. I think she depicts just how deeply capitalism is ingrained in our positive consciousness, that it's not this separate evil monster, but simply *can* be twisted that way...and she looks to history to explain who she is and who we are, which is a feature of Modernism.
> 
> You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, though.


Her version of history is a hyperreal one, though. What is real and what is fiction are seamlessly blended together so that there is no clear distinction between where one ends and the other begins. But oh well, let's leave it at that.

I'd just like to point out that I never stated anywhere that existentialism is intrinsically postmodern. I also have no clue why you mention this.


----------



## sicksadworlds (May 4, 2015)

I think her choices of style/aesthetic are just... fascinating. The elements of 'american', modern, neo-noir (I'm a sucker for neo-noir...) or whatever concepts she uses to present her persona and art are so interesting.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

babblingbrook said:


> Her version of history is a hyperreal one, though. What is real and what is fiction are seamlessly blended together so that there is no clear distinction between where one ends and the other begins. But oh well, let's leave it at that.
> 
> I'd just like to point out that I never stated anywhere that existentialism is intrinsically postmodern. I also have no clue why you mention this.


I just don't think it can be argued she's purely post modern. She's not at all. She has values, she isn't overbearing or preachy about her values, but she posts statements about God frequently, and displays what she values quietly through her art without doing something as simple as "ok do this"...she knows it's not realistic to do that, she has compassion and is also resigned to the actual whole of the human condition, even if some parts of it make her very sad, she won't pretend they don't exist or that dark things don't feel good sometimes to people. Her world is not a politically correct one. ..yet neither is it a world without real values, real ideals, etc...I think the post modern world actually sickens her on some level, which is why she has built such an insular world of beauty around herself. ..I very much imagine, because what I know about her, googling post modern art is as much of an eyesore to her as it is to me...her world has aesthetic standards, she lives in a world where beauty, love and truth still have profound meaning...there is right and wrong, and we can feel our feelings, respond to music and art with the enthusiasm of an adolescent. ..we don't have to be dulled, cynical, ironic about all things. 

But it's ok to be ironic sometimes, and we live in a collage culture. ..which is why I said in my first post she can't help having some post modern characteristics, because she's a 21st Century young woman, how could she escape the influence entirely. ..none of us can, but I don't think that makes her "highly post modern." 

I am sorry if I misunderstood that you were saying existentialism made her post modern, you said you had studied both in depth. ..and Modernism is my favorite phase of American literature. ..it's not just my imagination though. ..her ideals, values, expression of gender, religious beliefs are all features of the modern period...as is her belief that many answers lie in the past, or even that time is one seemless form...we can't ever just shut the past out, because all time is still existing. ..a lot of people talk about Lana del Rey's metanarrative, or what they interpret it to be.


----------



## mhysa (Nov 27, 2014)

so the reviews for _honeymoon_ are coming in, and i think this is her most well-received album yet! 

Lana Del Rey's 'Honeymoon': Review Revue | Idolator
@Thalassa feel free to tell me to fuck off and make a separate honeymoon thread if you'd rather have this one be about the article/lana's persona in general, haha.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

babblingbrook said:


> I can see the comparison to David Lynch only in this context, for his films can be filed under postmodern cinema, i.e. Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive.
> 
> But I do not understand the existential implications of her work, neither does the author give us any arguments and here I have to assume the writer of the article isn't well versed in existential philosophy at all.
> 
> ...


From what I understand of existentialism, it may because Lana del Rey relies so much on her own subjective experience, and her philosophical approach seems grounded in experience. That's another reason to come to the conclusion she has constructed her insular world, the existentialist does that in different ways...but the idea I suppose is that the world is absurd or not preferable, so she's had to be an individual to make her own way and come to her own conclusions...and songs the author refers to, like Ride, imply this kind of seeking meaning through experience. ..I don't think she's as bizarre or abstract as what I think of at least when I think of existentialist writers...her world is still very intensely collectively relatable to an intense group of fans. I think people may get the feeling she said what we can't say, or she pulled the collective consciousness of a certain sort of person out of a rabbit hat....

Lana isn't always ironic or detached. ..I've noticed people want to box her in...like she's all a subjective silly romantic girl...or else they say the entire body of work is an inauthentic ironic ruse. ..both kinds of people are wrong. She's an authentic nostalgic romantic who also has intelligent ideas...she isn't one or the other.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

mhysa said:


> so the reviews for _honeymoon_ are coming in, and i think this is her most well-received album yet!
> 
> Lana Del Rey's 'Honeymoon': Review Revue | Idolator
> @Thalassa feel free to tell me to fuck off and make a separate honeymoon thread if you'd rather have this one be about the article/lana's persona in general, haha.


I don't mind at all! But it might be productive to make a separate thread for everyone to discuss Honeymoon without all this talk about existentialism, modern, post modern, is she real or fake, the people saying they hate her or don't care if she died...I think if we focus on the music it would be a good idea.

I really really like Honeymoon, I think it's a beautiful album...and I think the final track/cover is used as a "message" to the general public, when I thought about Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood. ..it seemed as clear as day, I got over my original annoyance the entire album wasn't "Lana originals"...I don't think it's a cheat or throw away track, but very intentionally placed.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

@hal0hal0

Sorry, I said I would get back to your detailed post...from what I understand Lana del Rey is a combination of Lana Turner and an 80s South American Ford car, and she thought it sounded beautiful rolling off the tongue...Also, Lana del Rey's noir, or let's say Lizzy Grants, reached all the way back to the 30s and 40s in videos like Kinda Outta Luck (which specifically highlights Mildred Pierce)...and the Born to Die video reminded me of The Big Sleep, classic noir fiction and film. ..also her actual album sound reaches back much further than the 70s-80s, especially once we get away from Born to Die and move on to Ultraviolence and Honeymoon. One of my favorite tracks, Salvatore, is clearly the 50s/early 60s...and honestly if my grandparents were alive, I think they'd like Honeymoon best of all her albums, they were the sentimental generation of Silents.

I really like your points about Super 8 film, and about how we can find authentic or poignant human emotion even in "shallow" art..as if mere human emotions makes something shallow, if so we should throw away the entire genre of opera....Lana del Rey has said herself more or less it is about those beautiful, small moments and elevating them or making them last...a big part of what makes us human seems to have been lost in a sea of cheap mass production, and people used to put a lot more care into small things, like houses, diners, dresses, and plates...these things may be "shallow" but they make us human and we attach deep meaning to certain archetypes. When one looks at tribal culture, or even Western culture of not so long ago, everything was a lot more aesthetic. ..from archetecture to the way everyone dressed, to the functions or ritual of eating. LDR is Roman Catholic and went to Catholic school until she was thirteen...I do think this has something to do with her appreciation of an almost pagan tie to human history, the beauty of ritual and of "small things."


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

sicksadworlds said:


> I think her choices of style/aesthetic are just... fascinating. The elements of 'american', modern, neo-noir (I'm a sucker for neo-noir...) or whatever concepts she uses to present her persona and art are so interesting.


Yeah she grabs me on a visceral and emotional level, if she didn't, I wouldn't care about the intellectual implications of her music or videos as much. ..it's just the truth, I've seen people talk about how complex and advanced some metal lyrics are...but for the most part I don't like metal outside of Megadeth or Sisters of Mercy, so it's lost on me.

There are things that grabbed me as a teenager...The Shining, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Twin Peaks and The Lost Highway...that I didn't really understand until I had gone to college and was almost 30 years old or in my 30s. ..and it's pretty powerful to understand that you just felt attracted to something that actually had a powerful message about humanity or life and death. 

I think Lana del Rey is like that. It's all about the feeling, the style, the atmosphere. ..and there are people who appreciate some of her songs that will never really love her or get her, because they don't like her aesthetic, or whatever.


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

Honeymoon is amazing. More than makes up for the borefest and fillerfest disappointment that was Ultraviolence. Definitely worth the £10 I paid in advance for it. I'd recommend at least buying it on iTunes! Would not regret it.


----------



## Aya the Abysswalker (Mar 23, 2012)

@Thalassa me and you already talk a bit about Lana's presence and I feel that very much misunderstood by others because of the way she shows and even critics the American high live society. I remember Video Games getting some backslash because the video recreated the assassination of JFK with a black man. I thought that was very clever and telling of the American society.

Since we're talking about nostalgia and obsessive love, I would like to introduce you to what I consider Lana's 80s male counterpart, Trevor Something. Many of his songs speak of the night life, sex, drugs and broken hearts that reflect the 80s, but also American life. The obsession for love and the good life is present in both, as well the nostalgia for a time that as longed passed.
I hope you enjoy his songs.















I might look silly relating the two, but it made sense in my head.


----------



## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I really don't know much about Lana Del Ray. However, as a student of philosophy who has read Sartre, existentialism focuses on existence. Pink Floyd, I think is a good representative of Sartre, Jugband Blues, Us, and, Them, Welcome to the Machine, Another Brick in the Wall Part II, Comfortably Numb. they're songs the wrestle with whether a person is really there in mind, body, and, spirit. Are we saying the Lana, is saying people chasing the American Dream are existing, but, not living? Or is she saying the nostalgia for a distinct American Past, is futile, because, its not really there? Or in our world of Apple products, and facebook, that we're more programmed, to not really live in the libertarian world of Jack Kerouac, and, Neal Cassady? Where are we existing, but, just being?


----------



## Children Of The Bad Revolution (Oct 8, 2013)

rey....rey.....

REY

rayse me upppp


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Children Of The Bad Revolution said:


> Honeymoon is amazing. More than makes up for the borefest and fillerfest disappointment that was Ultraviolence. Definitely worth the £10 I paid in advance for it. I'd recommend at least buying it on iTunes! Would not regret it.


I think Honeymoon is a very strong album.

Even if it bores you personally, Ultraviolence wasn't a fillerfest, it's what Lana really wanted to do musically, it had very strong critical reception, and it was a fantastic album to see performed live last year at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. ..it's best listened to as a whole concept album. ..I love Ultraviolence, and some of the stand out songs on that are West Coast, Old Money, Fucked My Way to the Top, and Money Power Glory...The Other Woman and Brooklyn Baby also are popular with fans. ..I have also noticed a lot of her very young fans like Florida Kilos, to the point of screaming it at live performances. ..I don't know why a good 25-30 percent of her fans weren't able to appreciate it, I guess it's just personal taste, I almost wonder if it was just aversion to it being so different from Born to Die/Paradise. ..though I expect her real fans to connect it to older work like Mermaid Motel, Trash Magic, Get Drunk, etc. 


Ultraviolence is like a watercolor painting, or Impressionism, as an album, done in blues, light greens and purples.


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Brian1 said:


> I really don't know much about Lana Del Ray. However, as a student of philosophy who has read Sartre, existentialism focuses on existence. Pink Floyd, I think is a good representative of Sartre, Jugband Blues, Us, and, Them, Welcome to the Machine, Another Brick in the Wall Part II, Comfortably Numb. they're songs the wrestle with whether a person is really there in mind, body, and, spirit. Are we saying the Lana, is saying people chasing the American Dream are existing, but, not living? Or is she saying the nostalgia for a distinct American Past, is futile, because, its not really there? Or in our world of Apple products, and facebook, that we're more programmed, to not really live in the libertarian world of Jack Kerouac, and, Neal Cassady? Where are we existing, but, just being?


Yeah I think it being existentialist was likely the authors personal opinion, because I'm pretty sure she isn't saying those things are futile, she talks about being nostalgic for an era she never knew. I think some people don't know how to define her being both so authentic but also playing roles, with her emotional expression but also self aware.


----------



## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

Thalassa said:


> There are things that grabbed me as a teenager...The Shining, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Twin Peaks and The Lost Highway...that I didn't really understand until I had gone to college and was almost 30 years old or in my 30s. ..*and it's pretty powerful to understand that you just felt attracted to something that actually had a powerful message about humanity or life and death.*


A bit of a side note, but I really relate to this perspective (maybe it's an ISFP thing, IDK). My tastes often coalesce before I am able to fully explain or understand them. I wouldn't say I stop at judging a book by its cover, but I admit the initial allure is often because of some _je n'est sais quoi_ about the cover that drew me in. Twin Peaks is also my favorite show by far.



Thalassa said:


> I'm sorry, I majored in literature. . And Lolita is not a trashy paperback novel about a pedophile.


No worries. I admit that I've become somewhat lazy with analyzing texts, regardless of the media. My knowledge of literature is limited, since I don't study it academically; I prefer to simply let the experience wash over me these days. I didn't understand half of Ulysses, but there are some terrific passages in the book. Part of this is because I used to study film in college, and I found that dissecting movies by dismantling each shot through the "academic lens" sort of killed my interest in movies themselves. I became more interested in the meaning behind the film than I did the experience of the film itself. So in some regards I've swung the other way into thinking that only the immediate experience and feelings it evokes matter, since I don't want to forget what drew me to the movies in the first place.

That said, I will take a more academic approach to Born to Die's album cover, since I'm noticing a few things, and I'm more familiar with studying the visual arts like film, I'll draw the main comparison (let's go for the low-hanging fruit, shall we?), which is Lynch's Blue Velvet:









I still remember the only reason I picked up Born to Die was because of seeing the album cover as I rode the bus to school. Something about the cover drew me in. I still can't put my finger on it precisely, and to be honest, I haven't really made the effort to up until now because of aforementioned laziness. But...

Blue skies. White-wash. Cleanliness. Those are the immediate parallels between the Born to Die cover and Blue Velvet, but the similarities, at least on the technical level, extend beyond that. What is really interesting about Born to Die's album cover is the angle of the photograph. It's ever so slightly off, which gives the impression of viewing Lana Del Rey from below; she looks down on us. "Lana del Rey" I see as a character or a personal muse of Grant's, one she has infused with Americana influences ranging from a number of aforementioned time periods... mainly connected with retro-Hollywood. So del Rey, not unlike, say, Springsteen's characters in his songs, becomes something of an avatar through which she can tell her narratives.

Taking more liberties, I see del Rey as an amalgam of Americana and becomes something of a mythological creature... a "suburban goddess" so to speak. When I look at Summertime Sadness, the narrative being painted is a sheltered suburban girl, whiling away her summer while fantasizing of escape to an exotic life on the road, perhaps to Hollywood. And Grant would have to be blind not to see that same pattern occuring within America itself... say for instance, the aspiring actress casting aside her family's shelter to pursue neon lights.

Ofc the broader implication is indicative of American culture in general (or westernized society) of "flying the coop." Running away from the suffocation of suburban safety. I continue to think of The Graduate, which itself has become part of American's cultural lexicon. And there is a "tranquil darkness" to del Rey's sound and lyrics, not unlike Simon and Garfunkel as well... again, flaying the flesh off the pristine suburban surfaces.

Also: Look at her shirt: The white top with the more seductive undershirt... again, that "clean" surface with the more carnal innards, similar to Blue Velvet and Lynch in general.

Going back to Blue Velvet briefly: The appeal of Lynch's nastily exquisite opening to Blue Velvet is how it quickly slides from white-picket fence suburbia into flaying the skin off the seemingly immaculate veneer. Even though I'm not the hugest fan of Blue Velvet nor is it my favorite Lynch work by a long shot, the opening sequence nevertheless is basically a 5 minute lesson in "this is how you make a movie" from the standpoint of visual storytelling.








Thalassa said:


> @_hal0hal0_
> 
> Sorry, I said I would get back to your detailed post...from what I understand Lana del Rey is a combination of Lana Turner and an 80s South American Ford car, and she thought it sounded beautiful rolling off the tongue...Also, Lana del Rey's noir, or let's say Lizzy Grants, reached all the way back to the 30s and 40s in videos like Kinda Outta Luck (which specifically highlights Mildred Pierce)...and the Born to Die video reminded me of The Big Sleep, classic noir fiction and film. ..also her actual album sound reaches back much further than the 70s-80s, especially once we get away from Born to Die and move on to Ultraviolence and Honeymoon. One of my favorite tracks, Salvatore, is clearly the 50s/early 60s...and honestly if my grandparents were alive, I think they'd like Honeymoon best of all her albums, they were the sentimental generation of Silents.
> 
> I really like your points about Super 8 film, and about how we can find authentic or poignant human emotion even in "shallow" art..as if mere human emotions makes something shallow, if so we should throw away the entire genre of opera....


Confession: I haven't really listened to Ultraviolence much (once only) or Honeymoon at all (I didn't even know she made an album). That said, I listened to Born to Die ad nauseum and have put "Cola" on repeat more times than I can count. Not because I don't like her work, I just get distracted so easily.

But.... I just youtubed Summer Wine, and hot damn! I like it. I think she's pulling from either the hippie era (free spirit/flower child) and "Sonny and Cher" sort of thing, at a glance. I will have to marinate that one for a bit, though, so that's a first impression:






I will note that for New Hollywood emphasized notions of The Road, escape, and new beginning (i.e., late 1960s and 1970s American cinema... Two-Lane Blacktop, Five Easy Pieces, Easy Rider, Mean Streets, The Passenger, Night Moves, Midnight Cowboy, Bonnie and Clyde, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls, etc.). Frankly, I'm a fan of people that pay homage to the classics, such as remaking the Nancy Sinatra version of Summer Wine.



Thalassa said:


> Lana del Rey has said herself more or less it is about those beautiful, small moments and elevating them or making them last...a big part of what makes us human seems to have been lost in a sea of cheap mass production, and people used to put a lot more care into small things, like houses, diners, dresses, and plates...these things may be "shallow" but they make us human and we attach deep meaning to certain archetypes. When one looks at tribal culture, or even Western culture of not so long ago, everything was a lot more aesthetic. ..from archetecture to the way everyone dressed, to the functions or ritual of eating. LDR is Roman Catholic and went to Catholic school until she was thirteen...I do think this has something to do with her appreciation of an almost pagan tie to human history, the beauty of ritual and of "small things."


My favorite writer ever is Raymond Carver. I can't quite put my finger on it, as is often the case with my most favorite things:



RaymondCarver said:


> It's possible, in a poem or a short story, to write about commonplace things and objects using commonplace but precise language, and to endow those things - a chair, a window curtain, a fork, a stone, a woman's earrings - with immense, even startling power. It is possible to write a line of seemingly innocuous dialogue and have it send a chill along the reader's spine - the source of artistic delight, as Nabokov would have it. That's the kind of writing that most interests me. I hate sloppy or haphazard writing whether it flies under the banner of experimentation or else is just clumsily rendered realism.


Carver could do so much with so little.

Alright, sloppy writing from me so that might not have come out right, but I've got to go work tomorrow (the endless grind) :crying:


----------



## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

hal0hal0 said:


> A bit of a side note, but I really relate to this perspective (maybe it's an ISFP thing, IDK). My tastes often coalesce before I am able to fully explain or understand them. I wouldn't say I stop at judging a book by its cover, but I admit the initial allure is often because of some _je n'est sais quoi_ about the cover that drew me in. Twin Peaks is also my favorite show by far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really love the in depth complexity of your posts, but they are a lot for me to comment on all at once. 

I can and do relate to your desire to separate academia from your experience of art. I actually had no inclination to go to grad school for literature, because I felt being an undergraduate was already controlling/directing my writing and ruining my love of reading (for at least six months after leaving school) ..so the ISFP in me agrees with you...but I am also deeply grateful for what I have learned about being able to analyze literature, music and art...I can get even more from it...Del Rey's especially pointed usage of Lolita would utterly lost on anyone who thinks it's actually a romance about pedophiles. 

More later. Thanks again. Thinking about this suburban element. ..


----------

