# Notice the Pattern



## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

i've been thinking about this too, and i know that my own departure from the enneagram has been more that it's become sort of stale for me. not because there isn't a lot to it, and not because it's not potentially helpful, but because after reading about something you are just left with some knowledge of a subject and no real ability to actually apply it--other than, you know, just living and thinking. 


i've been thinking of making a thread on this sub-forum, but haven't really put thought to paper yet as i really doubt the seriousness it'll be taken with (a branch of occultism). i don't want to throw it out there because it's "so legit", but because it may give everyone a different lens to view themselves and the knowledge of the enneagram with, and so have more room to conceptualize themselves and their habits in terms of the enneagram. 


hell, i might just post it anyhow, as an exercise in cultivating yet another self-conceptual view of oneself.


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

Blazkovitz said:


> Understanding yourself and understanding others is a part of development. Typing others is not necessarily a frivolous pastime.


It's not typing others that is frivolous. 

But hey, does red make my butt look big? Maybe hide it with black? Oh, but black's too serious... I'll try maroon, it's like dark red. Ahh, what about my hair?!

self awareness vs. self indulgence


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I've noticed that knowing my enneagram type hasn't actually helped me with introspection. It's the other way around--introspection is the way I come to understand myself and how I perceive the world, and my enneagram type was just something I found out along the way. Enneagram can't tell me who I am or what I need to work on, but once I know those things, then I can know my enneagram type. For me enneagram is just a label and not the source of growth because the real stuff comes from within.

It's kind of like this: there's a big difference between knowing your issues intellectually, and knowing them _experientially_. There are different ways of knowing, and the most profound ways which lead to actual growth are the ways that involve your full mental, emotional, and experiential participation. Not just reading it in a book and saying "Yeah, that fits." But actually coming to a realization from within, that triggers something deep and powerful. Then you can say, "Now this _really _fits, and I really know it."

So in a sense, it's actually kind of futile to try to get growth from the enneagram, since it only gives you knowledge and not real personal insight that's experientially felt. Knowledge alone is not therapeutic. It might be a decent starting place that can lead you to deeper introspection, though.

Because of that, I don't think it's necessarily a problem that the enneagram isn't being used for growth on this forum. Enneagram on its own doesn't have the ability to create personal growth. People can try to offer generic advice for certain types, such as "Exercise more" or "Be more assertive" but that isn't going to do much. What has to happen is not advice by type but deep, personal introspection--not "What do you like to do on Saturday nights?" kind of introspection, but more like "If you were to go into therapy today, what real, personally significant issues would you bring up? What thoughts and feelings do you have toward the therapist, and toward yourself as you share these issues?" And of course, this may be better done alone in private or with an actual therapist than on the forum.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

The enneagram and PerC has helped me a lot with understanding my issues because now instead of just thinking I'm insane; I canfind a way to deal with, explore and my specific type 5 issues and try to grow based on that; so you could say that the enneagram has given me a framework to approach self-growth.


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## Blazkovitz (Mar 16, 2014)

Silveresque said:


> I've noticed that knowing my enneagram type hasn't actually helped me with introspection. It's the other way around--introspection is the way I come to understand myself and how I perceive the world, and my enneagram type was just something I found out along the way. Enneagram can't tell me who I am or what I need to work on, but once I know those things, then I can know my enneagram type. For me enneagram is just a label and not the source of growth because the real stuff comes from within.
> 
> It's kind of like this: there's a big difference between knowing your issues intellectually, and knowing them _experientially_. There are different ways of knowing, and the most profound ways which lead to actual growth are the ways that involve your full mental, emotional, and experiential participation. Not just reading it in a book and saying "Yeah, that fits." But actually coming to a realization from within, that triggers something deep and powerful. Then you can say, "Now this _really _fits, and I really know it."
> 
> ...


I would say the Enneagram can give you the conceptual framework to understand yourself. It does not give knowledge by itself, but is still useful.


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## phEight (Dec 17, 2010)

Zamyatin said:


> Why on earth would I talk about my personal struggles and failures in a public setting? That's embarrassing and vaguely needy. "Oh please random people on the internet, help me with my integration!"
> 
> Yeah, nah, fuck that noise. I work on my problems off-screen, where they're private. I've never been the type to whine about their emotions on social media or on message boards, and I'm not about to start because the Enneagram is ostensibly about personal growth. Leave the public confessions and histrionics for needy people who want Facebook sympathy.


You threw a dart without knowing your target.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

The aimlessness of the eneagram is built within itself from the very beginning. From it's flawed conception enshrining only 3 of the western elements (Fire = Gut Triad, Water = Image Traid, Wind = Intellect traid). The lack of the fourth element would only inhibit the desire for a metamorphosis, but without any sort of actual _direction_ because earth is associated with melancholy. A naturally self reflective process that is a deep well of sensation, meaning and value. This lack of value, lack of purpose in the enneagram is reflected in the way that gives the system any real sort of depth and just clutters up the whole system from the get-go, because it really is about just knowing what type you are. Then slamming in a bunch of senseless, dumb associations in order to make an occult symbol that expresses it's content through it's simplicity and turning it into a degraded, bastardized form of modern psychology. A form of politics, maybe even a contraption of a demiurge, though unlikely malicious in it's desire to form the enenagram, has none-the-less shown it's flaws. Much more concern with checking off an arbitrary check-list of surface behaviors, that doesn't have any logical coherency. You could say that that the enneagram has been taken over by Extroverted Thinking folks, trying to impose their measurements and rulers onto something that is meant to be more a philosophy. An abstraction of human behaviors, and actually materialize it in the real world. Not that I can really blame them really, the scientific method has gone a long way, and it's generally a useful tool. It just isn't very capable of capturing the usefulness of such a system, because it relies on subjective experiences above concretion.

The perfect example of this is the "8" type. In a more geometrically pure system, is the point in which the desire to express oneself is immense in it's intensity. No externals will let the flow of energy that bellows forth from their mouth to fill the world! A type that will vomit forth all sorts of doggerel, vile shit from their mouth. If they desire it. The most unfiltered type in the enneagram, with a lack of desire for metamorphosis that the water (phlegmatic types) have. They aren't perfect, but they are who they are and that's what matters to them.

Instead we get this broken emotionless, utterly inwardly devoid, hollow criminal who's also somehow the most badass and sacred type to have. That only the most _tortured_ and _inwardly angsty_ individuals are allowed to have the pride to wear the equivalent of a badge with a picture of a shit on it. Boy-howdy does that sort of description make me not want to fucking kill myself.

Y'see the difference here? The second example is too specific to be an all-encompassing archetype, and the first one is more or less free to fit onto whatever persona that a person might wear on the outside. Also THE POINTS ARE NOT INHERENTLY NEGATIVE, HOW FUCKED UP YOUR TYPE IS, IS BASED OFF HOW FUCKED UP YOU ARE AS A PERSON!

Another thing is, that people DO change in life and have different priorities that change with time and whatnot. So it would make sense that your type would also change too. So if your past isn't like the shit-eating coward that the type 6 child is supposed to be like. Yet you do related to being a type 6, and finds that it correctly fits into what sort of mindset your ego is undergoing. Congratulations, you don't need to win the mental gymnastics to be a fucking six! and thus you can actually change for the better, or do whatever the fuck you want. Instead of trying to make it PERFECTLY like some assholes said it should be like.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Twrankt said:


> The aimlessness of the eneagram is built within itself from the very beginning. From it's flawed conception enshrining only 3 of the western elements (Fire = Gut Triad, Water = Image Traid, Wind = Intellect traid). The lack of the fourth element would only inhibit the desire for a metamorphosis, but without any sort of actual _direction_ because earth is associated with melancholy. A naturally self reflective process that is a deep well of sensation, meaning and value. This lack of value, lack of purpose in the enneagram is reflected in the way that gives the system any real sort of depth and just clutters up the whole system from the get-go, because it really is about just knowing what type you are. Then slamming in a bunch of senseless, dumb associations in order to make an occult symbol that expresses it's content through it's simplicity and turning it into a degraded, bastardized form of modern psychology. A form of politics, maybe even a contraption of a demiurge, though unlikely malicious in it's desire to form the enenagram, has none-the-less shown it's flaws. Much more concern with checking off an arbitrary check-list of surface behaviors, that doesn't have any logical coherency. You could say that that the enneagram has been taken over by Extroverted Thinking folks, trying to impose their measurements and rulers onto something that is meant to be more a philosophy. An abstraction of human behaviors, and actually materialize it in the real world. Not that I can really blame them really, the scientific method has gone a long way, and it's generally a useful tool. It just isn't very capable of capturing the usefulness of such a system, because it relies on subjective experiences above concretion.
> 
> The perfect example of this is the "8" type. In a more geometrically pure system, is the point in which the desire to express oneself is immense in it's intensity. No externals will let the flow of energy that bellows forth from their mouth to fill the world! A type that will vomit forth all sorts of doggerel, vile shit from their mouth. If they desire it. The most unfiltered type in the enneagram, with a lack of desire for metamorphosis that the water (phlegmatic types) have. They aren't perfect, but they are who they are and that's what matters to them.
> 
> ...


Most empowering thing I have read in a while. This was a brilliant post and a very interesting idea to mull over, thanks.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Twrankt said:


> The aimlessness of the eneagram is built within itself from the very beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> I


Yawn. Words are meaningless, classifications of any kind have no value, the objective is really subjective making all systems worthless and a waste of time. 
Yawn. 

Enneagram has several meaningful attributes IMO. IT is a method with a clearly laid out map of how one might go about growing oneself, and the kinds of behaviors a more "healthy" example looks like. Further, it separates "Maturity/growth" from "healthiness" giving 4 dimensions to examine (if you include wings and the enneagram itself). 
Add on stacking for a fifth dimension. Thrown in MBTi for learning methodologies and decision and you have a couple of more dimensions.



Twrankt said:


> The perfect example of this is the "8" type. In a more geometrically pure system, is the point in which the desire to express oneself is immense in it's intensity. No externals will let the flow of energy that bellows forth from their mouth to fill the world! A type that will vomit forth all sorts of doggerel, vile shit from their mouth. If they desire it. The most unfiltered type in the enneagram, with a lack of desire for metamorphosis that the water (phlegmatic types) have. They aren't perfect, but they are who they are and that's what matters to them.
> 
> 
> I


God loves you, and so do I.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

Amaterasu said:


> Most empowering thing I have read in a while. This was a brilliant post and a very interesting idea to mull over, thanks.


You're welcome.



drmiller100 said:


> Yawn. Words are meaningless, classifications of any kind have no value, the objective is really subjective making all systems worthless and a waste of time.
> Yawn.


That is the opposite of what I believe. Of both the enneagram and real life. I am just saying that the enneagram cannot be scientifically proven to be incorrect or correct. That is all.




> God loves you, and so do I.


Thanks.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Twrankt said:


> Y
> 
> . I am just saying that the enneagram cannot be scientifically proven to be incorrect or correct. That is all.
> 
> ...


why did you use so many words when it could be simplified? I completely misunderstood your point.


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

I can't speak for others, but for me personally Enneagram is helping me the most of all these "personality labels". Pride is my vice, and seeing that is making me more aware of the ways I am prideful and how I can cut that down and become a more humble person. 

Admittedly I do like Enneagram for the label, but I also like it for the honesty that MBTI doesn't have on the surface. Enneagram is immediately about flaws and weaknesses in a way that MBTI isn't. This startled me when I first came across the theory, but now I really find it helpful (for myself, at least. I still prefer MBTI when considering others because it helps me recognize the strengths of others, but enneagram is helping me come to terms with and improve my own weaknesses).


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