# What does a real life INFJ look like?



## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

Ocean Helm said:


> Damn why does that one thread have to be closed?


Cold was in a different context, btw.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> What do any of those have to do with being warm?


"Warm" is seen as a synonym to sympathetic:









The others are related to not being ice cold and unyielding.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> "Warm" is seen as a synonym to sympathetic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"feeling, showing, or expressing sympathy." So it could just be feeling. Someone could feel whatever and still be cold. And I said they're warm but there's a coldness to them. The point is feeler doesn't mean warm, thinker doesn't mean cold.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> "feeling, showing, or expressing sympathy." So it could just be feeling. Someone could feel whatever and still be cold. And I said they're warm but there's a coldness to them. The point is feeler doesn't mean warm, thinker doesn't mean cold.


This study was based off outside observers though, which is why I think it's good for answering "what does a real INFJ look like?" Without psychic powers, you can't tell if someone is literally feeling sympathy, so it becomes about their actions, or at the very least facial expressions and body language. And even those external cues could be taken as "warmth".


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

-_-


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> This study was based off outside observers though, which is why I think it's good for answering "what does a real INFJ look like?" Without psychic powers, you can't tell if someone is literally feeling sympathy, so it becomes about their actions, or at the very least facial expressions and body language. And even those external cues could be taken as "warmth".


So you're using anecdotal evidence against anecdotal evidence basically?


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> So you're using anecdotal evidence against anecdotal evidence basically?


No, it was an actual study which I am almost certain (I don't have the study in front of me, just as a footnote in the MBTI manual) was not anecdotal, and used multiple subjects for each type, and multiple raters for each subject. And the raters were blind to type when rating the people. @reckful mentioned another one of these ACL studies in another post so maybe he knows more about this one or has seen it himself.

It's cited as "Summary of salient ACL data and Q-Sort descriptions of 12 of the 16 types. Raters were naive to type when making their ratings. Thorne & Gough, 1991" in the latest MBTI manual.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

Turi said:


> *Real life INFJs:*
> 
> Somebody who prefers to organize abstracts concepts and patterns that are _already known to them_ - absolutely _hateful _of gathering new observable information, rejects the notion of gaining knowledge for the sake of it and is incredibly uncomfortable with researching things to support their points.
> That's Ni-Se.
> ...


Smh, this is not the description of an INFJ. This is an ignorant fool too incompetent to function.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> No, it was an actual study which I am almost certain (I don't have the study in front of me, just as a footnote in the MBTI manual) was not anecdotal, and used multiple subjects for each type, and multiple raters for each subject. And the raters were blind to type when rating the people. @reckful mentioned another one of these ACL studies in another post so maybe he knows more about this one or has seen it himself.
> 
> It's cited as "Summary of salient ACL data and Q-Sort descriptions of 12 of the 16 types. Raters were naive to type when making their ratings. Thorne & Gough, 1991" in the latest MBTI manual.


How is this any different from me or anyone else describing random INFJs?


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> How is this any different from me or anyone else describing random INFJs?


For starters:
a) the raters don't know if they people they are rating are INFJ or not. This leads to reduced bias.
b) the quantity. So it ends up being an average to where statistically significant results can be obtained.

I'm not sure about the rest because I don't have it in front of me, but likely some precautions were taken to gather a representative sample.

One thing I'd like to correct is I'm not sure if there were multiple raters for each subject. I'm not sure actually how it was set up.


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## Froody Blue Gem (Nov 7, 2017)

There are different types of INFJs so there are different ways a INFJ can look. I have seen many type descriptions saying "truly an introvert but can be mistaken for an extrovert." Going off of my experience, one INFJ I know is very energetic, she takes interest in other people's interests, she's dorky and loves books, but she will put her foot down when she needs to. She also loves cats. One other INFJ I know is kind of tense and bossy, super organized, kind of keeps to herself, is very orderly and on top of things, but she's nice once you get to know her. She and I were never best friends, she even quite disliked me when we first met but now we get along better than we used to. One thing about INFJs is fe so one thing to look out for is them paying attention to other people's intentions. 

For me, I come across timid and quiet, I have trouble opening up to new people. I may come across as cold is I go into stress mode and I don't know anyone. I also kind of have a clueless, naive air about me. Someone might not even know I am an INFJ or type me that way if I got into my on my guard mode. I am very nervous in general and have diagnosed generalized anxiety disorder so that goes into it. What would they type me as? I couldn't really say but it's just, my fe becomes invisible because I seem so drawn into myself. Once you get to know me, I get very hyper and crazy around people I know. I also ramble on a lot to the point of being really annoying.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> For starters:
> a) the raters don't know if they people they are rating are INFJ or not. This leads to reduced bias.
> b) the quantity. So it ends up being an average to where statistically significant results can be obtained.
> 
> ...


1. They can form an opinion on what type the person is so that not being bias argument doesn't really work and why would someone be biased to begin with?

2. Ok, but I can listen to what other people say about types. If they've observed the same things as me and others despite the descriptions not including it than I see no way it could be biased or inaccurate.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Daiz said:


> Smh, this is not the description of an INFJ. This is an ignorant fool too incompetent to function.


Almost quite literally the introverted iNtUiTiVe type.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Aluminum Frost said:


> 1. They can form an opinion on what type the person is so that not being bias argument doesn't really work and why would someone be biased to begin with?


Not really because these aren't PersonalityCafe users who know all about the letters, stereotypes, and whatnot.


> 2. Ok, but I can listen to what other people say about types. If they've observed the same things as me and others despite the descriptions not including it than I see no way it could be biased or inaccurate.


But that is anecdotal. Where's the large sample sizes, systematic data collection, precautions and standards to minimize data contamination, etc?


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Turi said:


> Almost quite literally the introverted iNtUiTiVe type.


Didn't you dislike skill-based descriptions? Although I guess you can argue it's a preference for having your mind elsewhere ("in the clouds") but still your archetype seems diagnosable as Inattentive ADHD.


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## James Till (Feb 15, 2018)

Ocean Helm said:


> There is a study in the latest MBTI Manual, which involved outside observers (naive of type) using adjectives to describe INFJs.
> 
> The words they fit to INFJ were: sincere, sympathetic, unassuming, submissive, weak


Anyone describes me as submissive and weak I will judo throw them!

Jesus wasn't submissive and weak boi. I mean, lol, He submitted to the will of His father... But that took strength! Yeah!

But I've met a whole lot of INFJs irl, and they all seem very reserved. I was raised by an ESFP so...


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> Didn't you dislike skill-based descriptions? Although I guess you can argue it's a preference for having your mind elsewhere ("in the clouds") but still your archetype seems diagnosable as Inattentive ADHD.


I know I don't need to do this, because you've got _Psychological Types_, nevertheless.

Introverted intuitive type from _Psychological Types_.

..does this scream 'competent' to you? @Daiz?

The introverted intuitive section of Daryl Sharpes _Personality Types: Jungs Model of Typology_ is a great read as well, and accurately depicts the type.


I for one, believe the widespread image of INFJs as being these upstanding intelligent citizens, caring, competent - the perfect mixture or EQ and IQ - is sorely mistaken and untrue to the source.
People who return J results on dichotomy tests aren't actually Ni dominants, are they? They're judgers.
This is the reality.

If you want an example of an 'Ni' F type - look at INFPs - the real ones - the ones who become musicians or artists, as they truly can't express themselves in other way, they can't 'get out' what's in their head in any rational form like most people can.
They can only do it via what is essentially 'art'.
Those are the real Ni dominants.

The ones that rely on the goodwill of their friends and family to even survive as they can't manage day-to-day tasks such as 'keeping a job' or 'paying the bills'. 
That's the introverted intuitive type.

I think people have some _massively _distorted interpretation of what this type is and what an incredibly debilitating disease inferior sensation is.

Straight up - most people on this forum, and on the internet, that think they're INxJs are not.
They're J types. They're people that prefer J.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@Turi but isn't the source of the problem trying to attach Jung's Ni type to the letter J, rather than using new Ni descriptions compatible with J (not a great solution because it would have to make perceiving dominance signify judging somehow), or just not using MBTI letters for functions? I agree with almost all of what you said there though.


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## Aluminum Frost (Oct 1, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> Not really because these aren't PersonalityCafe users who know all about the letters, stereotypes, and whatnot.
> 
> But that is anecdotal. Where's the large sample sizes, systematic data collection, precautions and standards to minimize data contamination, etc?


1. Fair enough but it still doesn't answer my question.

2. I don't see why it matters. If people are coming to the same conclusions on their own I don't see how it's biased or inaccurate, especially when it's not stated in descriptions so there was nothing to influence people. Not only that but the words most commonly used to describe INFJs and other types are pretty general and only 5? Also these 5 words don't even necessarily describe someone with the preferences of I, N, F, J. I bet if this experiment was done multiple times you'd keep getting different results.


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## Violet777 (Feb 16, 2018)

Coburn said:


> The INFJ I know:
> 
> 1. Very focused on those specific topics that interest her. Not interested in topics that deviate from these...will usually not engage someone in a topic outside her personal interests except on a light, socially-polite level.
> 
> ...


Yes... this is similar to me.


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## Turi (May 9, 2017)

Ocean Helm said:


> @Turi but isn't the source of the problem trying to attach Jung's Ni type to the letter J, rather than using new Ni descriptions compatible with J (not a great solution because it would have to make perceiving dominance signify judging somehow), or just not using MBTI letters for functions? I agree with almost all of what you said there though.


100% yes, imo, I think it's almost beyond repair, I for one think the letters should simply represent the type - not any 'how we extrovert' ourselves type - covered this in another thread.. I think it's so ingrained into the typology community that P/J actually mean P/J for introverts, that what the types are has been completely misrepresented and distorted over time.

Ni and Si types have been twisted into J types - they've been somehow magic'd into structure, rules, regulations, adherence to authority, _*making decisions*_ based on the past/magic 8-ball.. I mean, I could go on for days, I'm sure most of us could, about how ridiculous the stereotypes are, how warped the general understanding is.

For some reason nobody does anything. 
We all just sit around and be like 'yeah man, Ni dom here - INFJ - always gettin' shit done, on the ball, never runnin' late, got my life totally sorted' and it's like ehhh.. no.

In my completely uneducated opinion, the P/J flip for introverts was a massive mistake and has completely twisted and destroyed the essence of each and every introverted type.

Dichotomy INFJs =/= Ni dominants.


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## Violet777 (Feb 16, 2018)

1. I'll either be super quite/stressed/distracted or animated if I we have similar interests (conspiracy theories, theology, shamanism, quantum physics - although I know shit all about the last one but find it mind blowing) 

2. Will pretty much always be polite 

3. My hair is usually pretty messy  

4. Lost in my own world a lot and you could talk for five minutes and then I'll ask you to repeat the whole thing (or work from what I picked up in and do a great job of coming across as if I heard it all - the key point seems to seep in and I'm good with words).

5. If it's an important issue or if you are worried or stressed out or in emotional pain - you have my attention 100%

6. Fixated on a topic of the month and will research the hell out of it. Will fall behind in my responsibilities due to a new obsession. Usually conspiracy theories, psychology stuff, spirituality, cryptocurrency haha. 

7. If I reveal too much of myself on facebook, I will later delete it. 

8. Keep quite and let you speak on an important thing and then connect all the dots in my mind and say something at the end that somehow strives to summarise/consolidate it and create a way for you to look at the problem, maybe in a new way (unless it's an overwhelmingly interesting topic and I'm so excited to be talking about it, then I'll interrupt and Move my arms around).

9. Have a strong vision of how all the world could change and be better - I contemplate healing/transformation like every day. I'll speak about things pretty optimistically and passionately

10. Might disappear and not talk to people for a few months if I'm going through a big emotional thing. I hate feeling pressure/intrusion from others or feeling like I'm the focus of people's attention if I'm in hardship. 

9. Passive aggressive 

10. Can make things feel awkward if I sense the other person can "see" into me. I experience so much awkwardness. 

11. Will say yes and take on way too much. Boundary issues. 

12. Have a tattoo of a line from a Sylvia Plath poem from when I was 15 (and regret it). Although I love poetry. 


But these may really be moreso things about myself in particular.


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

nothing to see here​


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

Violet777 said:


> 1. I'll either be super quite/stressed/distracted or animated if I we have similar interests (conspiracy theories, theology, shamanism, quantum physics - although I know shit all about the last one but find it mind blowing)
> 
> 2. Will pretty much always be polite
> 
> ...


No, you are me. We're basically twins. Crypto/conspiracy theory/spirituality-loving, Facebook status shame-deleting twins.

Unless the status gets more than 10 likes. Then it's not just me being an emo loser in public, but the Voice of the People, and it can stay.


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## poisonr (Feb 20, 2018)

Coburn said:


> The INFJ I know:
> 
> 1. Very focused on those specific topics that interest her. Not interested in topics that deviate from these...will usually not engage someone in a topic outside her personal interests except on a light, socially-polite level.
> 
> ...





I'd say this is pretty spot on!!


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## Violet777 (Feb 16, 2018)

Daiz said:


> Violet777 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I'll either be super quite/stressed/distracted or animated if I we have similar interests (conspiracy theories, theology, shamanism, quantum physics - although I know shit all about the last one but find it mind blowing)
> ...



Hahahaha. I love it. 

The voice of the people


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

Hipsters or Hobos.


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

@Violet777 

I find it interesting that you admit to being passive aggressive. I've known an inordinate number of you guys and that's definitely a theme I've picked up on - some pretty intense yet somewhat evasive passive aggression, lmao. What gets me is even the INFJs I'm closest to will NEVER admit that they were passive-aggressive at a given point. To me it can seem so obvious that they're doing it, but they won't admit it so I can't do shit about it but insist and make a dick out of myself. 

Aside from that I've noticed a few really distinctive traits that set them apart from everyone else, especially if in combination. The first seems to be some kind of magnified level of attention paid to me (or I guess whoever's talking) in groups, especially when first meeting them or if they're a new acquaintance. They'll be the one person that listens super intently to what I'm saying and thinks so far as to give brand new input (like Violet said), perhaps that I've never even thought of myself. Alternatively they'll also throw out guesses as to how I'm feeling and it tends to catch me off guard (in a good way). Idk, I guess in real life it just comes off as a deep interest in the person they're talking to, to the point where one might describe them as an unusually warm and caring individual. Seems to stem from Ni-Fe tendencies.

For the ones I've gotten close to there's also a sense you can't really ever get to know them completely. There's always a level of processing in between you and them. Even if we've been best friends for years, they're not gonna spout all of their feelings on everything all at once - there are always emotional/mental boundaries I'm not allowed to cross in a given moment. Maybe I can cross them later, but not until they feel cool with it. I guess this is particularly striking to me, as a person who throws my feelings at people like a fucking tsunami and at random. You can basically ask me something and I'm gonna tell you ALLLL about it and more so you better grab a snack and sit the fuck down. INFJs I've known might vent about a certain topic but there're still strict limits as to what they're willing to talk about right then, they tend not to lay out all their cards. 

I've noticed they sometimes also give me the sense that they're messing with my feelings in a way to keep me constantly happy or intrigued. I can't explain why or how, but so far it has been ubiquitous to my relationships with people of the INFJ sector, lmao. I've noticed this in other types too, like my ESFJ mom for example, but there's a level of subterfuge to it (or something similar) that I feel with INFJs. Once again none of them have ever admitted to consciously doing anything like that (aside from "wanting me to be happy"), just an observation of mine.

Don't know if this is helpful at all lol, but I hope so.


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## Violet777 (Feb 16, 2018)

Wild said:


> @Violet777
> 
> I find it interesting that you admit to being passive aggressive. I've known an inordinate number of you guys and that's definitely a theme I've picked up on - some pretty intense yet somewhat evasive passive aggression, lmao. What gets me is even the INFJs I'm closest to will NEVER admit that they were passive-aggressive at a given point. To me it can seem so obvious that they're doing it, but they won't admit it so I can't do shit about it but insist and make a dick out of myself.
> 
> ...


This is really interesting as you've observed us well! I admit to being passive aggressive because it's one of the things about myself that is so obvious because it drives me insane. It's like we can't say what we want to say, so we express it in other ways. I noticed I used to be like this from a young age - about 10 - with my dad. He was super intuitive and I think I almost used it as a manipulation. It might also come down to expecting or wanting others to know our needs instinctively, because we don't like asking, and then being frustrated that they don't get it. At least this is the case with me. 

I also worked with another infj in close quarters for a year and her passive aggressiveness was through the roof. 

I guess I can safely admit this online because there aren't really repurcussions with online strangers. 

The thing you said about focusing on a person intensely when in a group is so true! I sometimes facilitate small groups and I have a tendency to hone in intently and instensely on a person if they bring up an issue. It feels like laser beam energy towards them and we can drop into a more sacred kinda space with that person and the rest of the world drops away. Yet still very aware and alert of everyone else. One on one connecting is golden. But I'm also good at reading if the other person is comfortable and wants me to hold that space or not. If I sense they don't want me to, I won't intrude or force myself upon someone. 

In regards to the "Messing with feelings", do you mean that it's like we've are constantly trying to divert/buffer away from negativity? I think we have a hard time letting things be. sometimes things have no answers and we simply cannot change or help the person, and this makes us feel uncomfortable. I dont intentionally mess with others feelings, but I can see how it might seem this way. It is like we are steering things in a direction that makes us feel comfortable and useful. We want everyone to feel good and will dedicate our lives to this sometimes. But we are also okay with deep pain and silence and will join you there. It sounds contradictory I guess. 

I think a good life lesson for an infj is "letting go" and allowing there to be no solutions sometimes and accepting that we can't control/fix/make everything better all the time. 

These are realisations that I'm only just working on in my middle years and have perhaps be more closed-minded and "Rose coloured glasses" in the past. However, I still have ultimate hope and understanding that everything is going to be healed across all humanity - I think it's that sense of absoluteness that we love and crave. Could just be me though. 

In regards to the "keeping boundaries" and not spilling all at once... I can totally relate. I went through a pretty crap time that lasted over a couple years. I was confused and indecisive and guilt-ridden and basically lost and scared and frustrated. Anyway, I thought the best thing for me would be to talk to everyone to gain clarity. I somehow thought it would bring out "truth" and everything would fall into place from there. In reality, exposing my deep pain and confusion just made me feel so exposed and even more lost. It also gave me a feeling of being open to manipulation and at the whim of everyone's own emotional agenda. It was a really bad. 

This then turned into ignoring basically everyone and becoming a hermit for months. And then I became really passive aggressive towards people when it felt like they were prying back into my personal world. I felt really angry and intruded upon.. I was angry because I was feeling like they thought they had a right to know what I was feeling and it felt really intrusive and condescending - like being psychologically raped (sorry for brutal metaphor - but it's all I can think of). It was really strange. I know they were only trying to help. 

I have no problem talking about my deep self with those im close to. But maybe it should stop at a close friend or a lover. It's really strange. And I'll only talk if I feel like they aren't gaining something from it. I give too much power away - in a bad way. Like I lose myself and others can then take advantage. It's really really hard to explain and words can't paint the picture properly. 

I hope this helps! Sorry for intense rambling. I only expose this here because you are strangers! Haha. 

And yes, your insights are helpful  it is really interesting to see how our behaviour comes across.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

My INFJ Sis would appear more ENFJ to people who do not know much about functions and typing
She has sophisticated social skills like how I view Oprah

She is really in to self help stuff.

Her actual primary focus throughout her on off years of school has been drafting, project management, design and architecture 

She is hot. 
Sophisticated but not in an overt manicured way
Very Boho Natural 

She cracks me the fuck up when she gets kinda weird with talking about zen. All I mean by this is just her who she is specifically has some bizarre freak out moments (fine I don’t care whatsoever) but when she is making suggestions to other people she will tell them to do yoga and refer to how much it helped her (me busts out laughing-ok so she is really good at concealing her break downs, yes but I know her) so anyway I just roll my eyes. Not at doing yoga, just that she is talking about how calming it is. :laughing: what the fuck ever floats your boat sis. Thank gawd she smokes weed (being serious). You know that full throttle STP thing on the outside well that is what’s in the inside of many NFJs while a lot that whole zen diplomacy NFJ exude is often inside STPs already. That’s probably why I roll my eyes at her a lot of times what we channel is an alter ego. She knows I am a big mushy softy just like I know she is a rat in a cage waiting to be unleashed. 

Oh most of my studies in college have been in social sciences. Mentioned because she did more so what would be stereotyped as STP work

She is very flexible in what she will do for work to get bills paid as far as being a personal assistant at times, bartender etc 

My sis is my best friend 
She pissed me off with something last year but overall we are tight

I love her 

She is pure of heart and intention


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## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

They aren't. They think they are.

My husband is an INFJ. He pretty much ignores all advice I give him and then when he hears the same words from some Podcasts explains it to me like it's some brilliant, revolutionary thought that I could never understand myself.

Can't speak for other INFJ's.


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## TrappedQueen (Feb 21, 2018)

As an INFJ i dont really know what i look like to other people or even care but i can tell you what others have said about me, and the things i have noticed about myself.

1.) I have a weird way of attracting people and cannot explain it. People will just come up to me and start talking and i'll get irritated or try to answer them the best way i can

2.) People think i know more than i seem to let on. I'm not smart at all. I just know what i happen to know. Someone could tell me one thing then weeks later someone will ask a question related to that one thing someone else told me. Then surprisingly i'll have the answer

3.) I don't like being disturbed when engaging in a topic or activity i love

4.) People tell me i smile alot, but i don't even realize I'm smiling. I could be thinking about something and my face just takes on what im thinking about.

5.) I want to help people, but at the same time i hate them. I don't really understand myself

This is about all i can say im sure there's more, but i dont understand myself enough find any


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## Crowbo (Jul 9, 2017)




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## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

Fumetsu said:


> They aren't. They think they are.
> 
> My husband is an INFJ. He pretty much ignores all advice I give him and then when he hears the same words from some Podcasts explains it to me like it's some brilliant, revolutionary thought that I could never understand myself.
> 
> Can't speak for other INFJ's.


I admit that I will almost never take anyone's advice but it's because it doesn't fit my experience. 

I do take my INTP best friend's advice, which surprised me at first, but we got really close "first," and also we are similar in important ways, like she will be start explaining something she is doing in the lab and I jump in and finish what she was thinking she would have trouble getting me to see, and she'll say, "That's exactly right." 

Then I'll start explaining something going on with me, and she jumps in and finishes it, showing she knows from experience or from how she thinks that she really gets it, doesn't need my explanation for that.

So I'll take advice from someone I respect but unless someone clicks with me like my INTP best friend OR they ask questions rather than making assumptions, the advice isn't gonna work for me.

One banal example is someone who assumed that because I am broke I need clothing so she started telling me to pray and how "abundance" will come my way, going on and on about it, even getting--without asking me anything--a relative to put together a bag of clothing for me.

I don't need clothing. I wear the same things all the time because I don't like to bother with fashion. It doesn't interest me. Same with makeup and jewelry and so much more that people make suggestions or give advice about: Ask me for crimminy's sake, then give advice.

That's what I do. I am not a "should" kind of person so I don't like to be on the receiving end.

My ENFP husband has been with me going on 30 years and often gives off-the-mark advice, which is why I don't take it. But I do sometimes because, ah-tah-dah, he was on target.

My INTP friend is more on target, more often, than he, which makes sense to me, and would offend him if he read this.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Turi said:


> If you want an example of an 'Ni' F type - look at INFPs - the real ones - the ones who become musicians or artists, as they truly can't express themselves in other way, they can't 'get out' what's in their head in any rational form like most people can.
> They can only do it via what is essentially 'art'.
> Those are the real Ni dominants.


Clive Barker is textbook Jungian otherworldly Ni-dom, as you describe here, and I think he's INFJ:








> The ones that rely on the goodwill of their friends and family to even survive as they can't manage day-to-day tasks such as 'keeping a job' or 'paying the bills'.
> That's the introverted intuitive type


I don't think all INFJs are completely incapacitated, and I've met some people who I think would be INFJs who are doctors/professors/psychologists, which requires a lot of J-like qualities in their work, but yeah, I get your point. :blushed:


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## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

@mistakenforstranger

When I read _Gifts Differing_, referencing sections on INTJs/INFJs and ISFPs/INFPs, it is the INFJs and some INFPs that are highlighted for doing well as Rhodes scholars, doctors--and as Myers Briggs says, "any area they are interested in" for INFJs.

Almost verbatim, along with INTJs, for INFJs "the impossible takes a bit longer," i.e. hard is easy, impossible just takes more work.

It's the "sticking to it" bit that is often most difficult because we don't like routine--not INTJs, not INFJs,not INFPs (not most IN--s). And a whole lot of jobs in life are routine as hell, especially in the U.S. and those recommended by professors for money, status, etcetera.

For instance, I ran my own preschool. I set it up myself, and it was very structured but I created the structure, didn't have to follow someone else's that would choke me, but I could not work in someone else's preschool because it was rigid, unimaginative, boring tasks for the kids, cookie-cutter attitude for behavior including discipline.

What did me in with my own preschool was the hours and low pay: 6 in the morning to 6 at night, then the paperwork, clean up, set up for the next day, no vacations. 

And my standards for that were as high if not higher than my standards for COO of the mental health agency. 

If my county contact said something had to be done in three months, I had to beat that deadline, so I got awards; got the agency off its contract-at-risk status (which I inherited) after I went from accounting assistant (routine, boring as hell) to COO in six months (impossible take a little longer), and I never quit: 

I worked until 8 at night, took work home, did the clerical work myself because no one else was competent to do it and I didn't have the funding to hire help.

So after I accomplished what I needed to do accomplish--far more than removal from contract-at-risk, I hired my own replacement, and quit.

I don't get how so few know any INFJs then assert such and such about them. Or know only a few and do the same--and many of the INFJs are often strangers, actors and such. 

That kind of labeling and then making assertions associated with "imaginative" labeling isn't logical at all. 

Talk about a small pool to make observations about. In the case of actors and other unknowns it is usually a mythical pool. And further, without knowing these strangers intimately, we cannot know if they are successful over all "even if the typing is correct."

Just some thoughts.

Not singling you out. I "bootstrap" off posts when it triggers thoughts as yours did.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

BranchMonkey said:


> Almost verbatim, along with INTJs, for INFJs "the impossible takes a bit longer," i.e. hard is easy, impossible just takes more work..
> It's the "sticking to it" bit that is often most difficult because we don't like routine--not INTJs, not INFJs,not INFPs (not most IN--s). And a whole lot of jobs in life are routine as hell, especially in the U.S. and those recommended by professors for money, status, etcetera.


This isn't quite on topic but I do really struggle with routine, even when establishing that routine would help me achieve a goal, and this year I started changing that by doing onerous/easy-to-put-off tasks for only 10 minutes per day. I started off meditating, exercising (HIIT training, which is meant to be short and intense), reading, etc for 10 minutes each day. I actually love reading books but often am "too busy" doing other things (aka daydreaming in bed for 2 hours every morning/wasting time on the internet/working obsessively on some creative project).

It's really not long but that's the point. It's so short and easy, there's no excuse not to do it, and so it becomes routine. And now I do these things for longer than 10 minutes. I plan my day around them, and will soon be introducing some new 10-minute things to my life. 

Just wanted to mention it because I have found this has really helped me and may help other Ni-doms (or just people who struggle with getting important things done).


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## Lunacik (Apr 19, 2014)

@Turi


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## BranchMonkey (Feb 23, 2017)

Daiz said:


> This isn't quite on topic but I do really struggle with routine, even when establishing that routine would help me achieve a goal, and this year I started changing that by doing onerous/easy-to-put-off tasks for only 10 minutes per day. I started off meditating, exercising (HIIT training, which is meant to be short and intense), reading, etc for 10 minutes each day. I actually love reading books but often am "too busy" doing other things (aka daydreaming in bed for 2 hours every morning/wasting time on the internet/working obsessively on some creative project).
> 
> It's really not long but that's the point. It's so short and easy, there's no excuse not to do it, and so it becomes routine. And now I do these things for longer than 10 minutes. I plan my day around them, and will soon be introducing some new 10-minute things to my life.
> 
> Just wanted to mention it because I have found this has really helped me and may help other Ni-doms (or just people who struggle with getting important things done).


Thanks for sharing this. I've had to do it with things like walking inside the flat, doing laundry--I set a Dollar Store timer, and then carry it around with me in my pocket or palms up for walking. 

It's the only way I can get certain tasks down because they're necessary--I know, but I can't stick to doing them when more interesting things beckon--yes, doing what you call "working obsessively" is what I call "zoning" and when I'm like that I don't stop for anything--I literally won't go to the bathroom until my bladder feels like it's gonna burst, and I give myself a stern talking to but it doesn't stop me from "zoning" next time. 

I used to clean the bathroom the same way, breaking it down into manageable bits, and I'd feel so ridiculous sometimes because it only took 45 minutes to get both bathrooms done (when my husband and I lived in San Diego and each had a bathroom). 

How hard is that, right? Right. Hard for those of us who can't buckle down to the mundane without some kind of mnemonic device; whatever works--I agree, share it; it may help some others who struggle with the seemingly simple and straightforward yet really snoring stuff.

Today my INTP best friend and I talked for 4 hours straight--that was easy. But try getting me to spend 20 minutes washing up dishes and I need some kind of incentive.


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## Daiz (Jan 4, 2017)

BranchMonkey said:


> Thanks for sharing this. I've had to do it with things like walking inside the flat, doing laundry--I set a Dollar Store timer, and then carry it around with me in my pocket or palms up for walking.
> 
> It's the only way I can get certain tasks down because they're necessary--I know, but I can't stick to doing them when more interesting things beckon--yes, doing what you call "working obsessively" is what I call "zoning" and when I'm like that I don't stop for anything--I literally won't go to the bathroom until my bladder feels like it's gonna burst, and I give myself a stern talking to but it doesn't stop me from "zoning" next time.
> 
> ...


Oh, I am not judging over the bathroom stuff or the dishes! I will turn cleaning my bedroom floor (not even vacuuming - just picking things up) into a 3 hour task. And washing the dishes is often me doing 2 minutes and then repeatedly interrupting to go on the internet. 

Getting into the zone for work is so GOOD when it happens though. I'll frequently go without food despite hunger pangs until I've reached a point where I'm satisfied with what I've done. Having to stop for physical needs is the worst though. I can't believe we need food and bathrooms and 6-8 hours of sleep per night. It's so useless and unfair and INCONVENIENT


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## Janna (Aug 31, 2018)

The one INFJ that I know (hasn't been tested officially but got INFJ from an online test and felt that the description was accurate) is very likable, soft-spoken and diplomatic, smart, organized and efficient. She's able to keep her eye on the ball even when there are distractions like office drama, and she's ambitious but not pushy at all. Actually as her boss I'd like to see her push her views a bit more: she's insightful and always well prepared, but if there's somebody louder around, she can sometimes just step back and not make her point of view known, which is everybody's loss.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@mistakenforstranger Hitler was not an INFJ in MBTI (clearly not J), even by the function definitions created for MBTI purposes although functions aren't a technically valid typing method in MBTI. In Socionics, both Manson and Hitler are usually considered EIE but it seems for those purposes all you really need to do get people sort of emotionally engrossed in your intuition which itself is more of a "social role" and ability than a preference but that's just sort of how Socionics is set up.

In Jung's types he was probably somewhere between the extraverted intuitive type and the introverted sensation type in the sense of being highly fueled by his subjective perception of power as well as using his intuition to see external possibilities which he then followed while rarely caring to bring judgment into the picture. And when his top party officials tried to do so he didn't care much to listen to them. Structurally I believe that the Third Reich was an IxxP guiding a predominantly NTJ inner circle from which they carried out his vision. He was clearly in a different world from them and had a natural gift of connecting directly with the people, but when it came to the actual structural planning, he was nowhere to be found. But in a more Jungian model, Intuition outside (focused on envisioning real possibilities in the external world and charismatically leading people to make it happen) combined with Sensation inside (focused on the forceful psychological impact on his own psyche) makes great sense. In Jung's words "The secret to Hitler's power is ... that his unconscious has exceptional access to his conscious." Which I think is very much in line with these two "opposites" being in a more friendly relationship than in most people.

Why not Ni type? He used his intuition to uncover _real possibilities_ and not uncover these sort of "remote" things from his unconsciousness. He was more concerned with the visceral grip which certain things provided to him which is more in the line of Si. He seemingly turned away from the subject more than toward it on the topic of intuition, happy when he had his answer for external events without deeply examining his own psyche and what got him there as an Introverted Intuitive would. Also just to further illustrate his *lack of introverted intuition* I think we can examine his attitude toward art where he hated "abstract art" which he viewed as degenerate as it only seeked to create negative external possibilities in the external world from his perspective. And if you look at his own art it was quite straightforward. This is almost certainly not someone who was illustrating from a deeper examination into his own psyche. 

Adolf Hitler:
IxxP (MBTI)
Extraverted Intuitive, Auxiliary Feeling (Jung)
EIE (Socionics)
NF (Keirsey)

Manson I think is a bit different. It's hard for me to see what you quoted as legitimately showing a "feeling" preference as it seems too rebelliously anti-morality however through his art I do think that you can see a lot more of what would be considered introverted intuition in Jung's world although I think he clearly is an xNTP in MBTI. Rather than focus on what can be externally, what he expresses in his music is the output of him mulling around internal images brought about by few stimuli. However at the same time he does seem to be very conscious of envisioning external scenarios and focusing his intuition outwards. He seems more just like an Intuition dominant ambivert and he seems to make his point more through analysis than personal connection so I see a Thinking preference.

Marilyn Manson:
xNTP (MBTI)
Intuitive Primary, Thinking Auxiliary (Jung)
EIE (Socionics)
NF (Keirsey) I think he is still somewhat of an "idealist" moreso than a rational and this category seems to exist for these NPs that aren't really all that into a purely scientific way of thinking and maybe this is where I can agree with your Fi analysis although I think we're just sort of looking at things through different typological lenses.
4w5 (Enneagram) I think I'm converted to this. In the past I saw things a bit differently.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

mistakenforstranger said:


> I also don't see why INTPs would care all that much about value systems, especially not in the way he advocates for it.


But isn't that the whole thing of Inferior functions though? They feel like they don't need it but long to understand it?

I can see Fi Dom though because they are the epitome of _''Fuck you, I do what I want!''_. They usually don't care also about feedback and how their thoughts and actions are received by the masses. Ti Doms actually care to some extent. They need to see a reaction from people to make sure they're _''alive''_ so to speak and I see Manson very much like this. But there's already too many Manson threads on this forum to count, so let's resume with the initial what an INFJ looks like.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Stevester said:


> But isn't that the whole thing of Inferior functions though? They feel like they don't need it but long to understand it?


You're right about this in wanting to understand it and/or integrate it, but I still don't think an inferior function is at the forefront of one's mind. It's more like you have to consciously focus on your inferior, if you want to improve it. 



> I can see Fi Dom though because they are the epitome of _''Fuck you, I do what I want!''_. They usually don't care also about feedback and how their thoughts and actions are received by the masses. Ti Doms actually care to some extent. They need to see a reaction from people to make sure they're _''alive''_ so to speak and I see Manson very much like this. But there's already too many Manson threads on this forum to count, so let's resume with the initial what an INFJ looks like.


Yeah, that's totally fine with me, and I'm actually now thinking INTJ. I see Ni/Fi overall (despite not having very strong Te, as far as I can tell) not Fi/Ne, so I take back INFP.


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

Ariviel said:


> Mooncutter said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't met any either, they are extremely rare. Johnny Depp is an INFJ. Go ahead and research him.
> ...


 Lol Depp is an obvious perceiving type. NP definately. Weird even how anyone thinks Manson is an Infj. Like what? Do you even know what an infj is? They dont generally come off as edgy (which are mostly perceiving types with low levels of Fe, I can even see Isfp in Manson), they blend in pretty well but there is definately something different about them. The eyes give it away. Dam I love those eyes. They seem to look right through you and thats ironically what I like as an Entp because most people often cant see past the external image we present, which is pretty adaptable because of our Ne. We like being exposed (well atleast i do). The thing is, most people fail the test. Infj ace the test. Id say this is the major reason why our opinion of them is higher than most. So if you want to spot an infj and see what they look like, simply get your local entp out of his dog cage and have him do some sniffing. If you were expecting an alien, prepare to be disappointed though. You might have already met the infj.


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

And btw, if you think INFJ's are high in Ti, you are retarded. It's a fairly subconscious proces for them. (Even more if you labeled yourself an infj because you think you use Ti instead of Te. The whole "loop" thing is bullshit. These are just mistyped thinkers. Probably INTJ's.) 
This must be why people think Hitler was an INFJ, because of a completely false understanding of the shadow functions. I've even made an entire thread about this recently where I explain this in detail. Ti is really quite low on a real INFJ. These people are not deep thinkers, they are deep intuitives and feelers, it's this combination that gives them their "sixth sense" so to speak. (Although yes, Ti will be even lower on an ENFJ.) Which is not to put them down. It's just to raise awareness about the actual consciousness of an INFJ and that it's probably completely unlike you have in your head. The whole "darkness" thing sounds ridiculous to me. (Although they might have an higher awareness of injustice which can cause some wounds in them.) It seems like you're just projecting on people you don't know, which is easy to do because they are so rare. You're more likely going to find them in some new age crowd than in some weird satanic circle. (My dog nose is working well today.)


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## BenjiMac (Aug 7, 2017)

Zidane said:


> And btw, if you think INFJ's are high in Ti, you are retarded. It's a fairly subconscious proces for them. (Even more if you labeled yourself an infj because you think you use Ti instead of Te. The whole "loop" thing is bullshit. These are just mistyped thinkers. Probably INTJ's.)
> This must be why people think Hitler was an INFJ, because of a completely false understanding of the shadow functions. I've even made an entire thread about this recently where I explain this in detail. Ti is really quite low on a real INFJ. These people are not deep thinkers, they are deep intuitives and feelers, it's this combination that gives them their "sixth sense" so to speak. (Although yes, Ti will be even lower on an ENFJ.) Which is not to put them down. It's just to raise awareness about the actual consciousness of an INFJ and that it's probably completely unlike you have in your head. The whole "darkness" thing sounds ridiculous to me. (Although they might have an higher awareness of injustice which can cause some wounds in them.) It seems like you're just projecting on people you don't know, which is easy to do because they are so rare. You're more likely going to find them in some new age crowd than in some weird satanic circle. (My dog nose is working well today.)


I believe Hitler could very well have been an INFJ and not for the reasons you outline.

He certainly was not a thinker in the Jungian sense - his actions were very values based, the hallmark of a feeling type. In the latter stages of the war, he could have changed tack - postponed his final solution and redirected resources to winning the wars he began. Setting aside that he started his wars out of a desire for and vision of a unified Pan-Germanic state akin to an extended family - he didn't take these logical actions because a) He was upset at the German people (I was surprised to learn this but he genuinely felt betrayed by them toward the end and resolved to abandon them to their fate) and b) His values/feeling judgement demanded the extermination of the out-group - in this case the Jews - which is a very, for want of a better term, maternal sort of aggression.

I find people always seem to view INFJs as universally good, Hitler is for me the perfect example of an INFJ gone bad. The smothering parent, the provoked mother bear - willing to do horrific things for what he viewed as his group at the expense of those outside his group. He imagined a utopic, idealised land in which art and beauty abounded and within which his people would be forever secure - he spents vast amounts of time designing cities and monuments and plazas.

There are many points in his life that lay bare the fact that it was anything but logic steering his decision making - if opening up an unwinnable two front conflict isn't enough.


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

@BenjiMac Ah so you think T's are rational now. Lol, is that why 50% of the population are T's yet about 80% of the population have nonsensical religious beliefs? Explain that contradiction to me please. And Donald Trump is a T too. And look what an idiot. Thinkers are not robots making decisions the way an artificial intelligence would. They are human! And F is not really about values. That's a misconception. The values arise resulting from F. For example, a person high in F might feel bad about seeing a person in pain. Then he develops a value whereby it's wrong to cause needless suffering. But that value is not F anymore than principles are T. They are nothing more than belief systems which are merely a consequential outcome as a result from using that function. T's have alot of values too. Hitlers values were clearly fucked up, and hence it is my opinion that his values did not arise from high F use. (I am not claiming F are angels, far from it, I am simply claiming that F's tend to not be capable of mass slaughter. That's why almost all terrorists are male, and that's because males make up the majority of T's.) He was not an idealist. Sure, idealists might have an utopian vision too, but their vision is for all humans, and hence, they will violently oppose a vision such as Hitler's third Reich which would cause extinction of other groups of humans. So basically, Hitler's vision was world domination, just like all dictators. Okay, so he "cared" about the German people. Oh, is that why he threw them away like cannon fodder? Funny how that works. Basically, talking about this makes me sick. I don't know how people can be so mistaken to get something as obvious as this wrong. Probably the same kind of people who claimed Hitler was a vegetarian too, lmao... Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, why don't you suck his dick? I can argue about this all day, so if you push me, the only thing that will result is you will end up looking like an idiot. So it's better you quit now.
(Preparing for incoming forum violation, AGAIN)


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## BenjiMac (Aug 7, 2017)

Zidane said:


> @BenjiMac Ah so you think T's are rational now. Lol, is that why 50% of the population are T's yet about 80% of the population have nonsensical religious beliefs? Explain that contradiction to me please. And Donald Trump is a T too. And look what an idiot. Thinkers are not robots making decisions the way an artificial intelligence would. They are human! And F is not really about values. That's a misconception. The values arise resulting from F. For example, a person high in F might feel bad about seeing a person in pain. Then he develops a value whereby it's wrong to cause needless suffering. But that value is not F anymore than principles are T. They are nothing more than belief systems which are merely a consequential outcome as a result from using that function. T's have alot of values too. Hitlers values were clearly fucked up, and hence it is my opinion that his values did not arise from high F use. (I am not claiming F are angels, far from it, I am simply claiming that F's tend to not be capable of mass slaughter. That's why almost all terrorists are male, and that's because males make up the majority of T's.) He was not an idealist. Sure, idealists might have an utopian vision too, but their vision is for all humans, and hence, they will violently oppose a vision such as Hitler's third Reich which would cause extinction of other groups of humans. So basically, Hitler's vision was world domination, just like all dictators. Okay, so he "cared" about the German people. Oh, is that why he threw them away like cannon fodder? Funny how that works. Basically, talking about this makes me sick. I don't know how people can be so mistaken to get something as obvious as this wrong. Probably the same kind of people who claimed Hitler was a vegetarian too, lmao... Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, why don't you suck his dick? I can argue about this all day, so if you push me, the only thing that will result is you will end up looking like an idiot. So it's better you quit now.
> (Preparing for incoming forum violation, AGAIN)


Wow, someone seems a little insecure and angry this morning.

I don't think you really understand what I'm saying and you're oversimplifying - yes, he absolutely would sacrifice some of his in-group for a bigger vision. What he was aiming to build, in his deluded way, was agrand vision that required sacrifice - what he wouldn't compromise on was who was in his in-group. Yes, he believed he cared about the German people - in his twisted mind, he was aiming to build a better world for them and he genuinely seemed to believe it, at least initially. It doesn't make it so, it doesn't make him right - it's merely part of working to understand the man and his actions, after all we never want this to ever happen again.

Yes, thinkers are logical, as far as is possible - that doesn't make feelers illogical, what drives their thought processes is believed to be different is all. It doesn't mean thinkers are always correct - have you read much Jung?

I believe Hitler was a vegetarian - it's not relevant to anything. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to see it - it makes for an interesting dinner table conversation fact.

80% of who has non-sensical religious beliefs?


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## Zidane (Sep 9, 2015)

So basically, my argument is that all mass murderers must be people with highly suppressed F (which doesn't mean that everyone with highly suppressed F is a mass murderer in the making which is silly, because you know, logic...), and hence, it cannot be a conscious function as you cannot suppress your dominant/auxiliary. You can only suppress your shadow functions. (And I don't think most people suppress them, they're just not aware of them.) It's as simple as that and I haven't seen anyone present a decent counter argument to this. They just lash out because they feel it's offensive. Well sorry to say but saying one of the most evil people in history was an infj, is pretty offensive to infj's too... So if you can say that, why I can not say this if that's what I believe?


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

@Zidane There's a whole thread on typing Hitler (link). I'm unsure on F vs T but he was no J so thus he couldn't be INFJ.


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## BenjiMac (Aug 7, 2017)

Bringing things back on topic - I'm not sure I've ever met an INFJ, I was mistakenly typed as one in my early days of looking into personality typing (apparently this sort of mistype is more common than one may think, though it surprised me at the time and made me question the system somewhat).

I have however met a person who claims with great conviction to be INFJ, but whom I have found to be somewhat untrustworthy, attention seeking and emotionally manipulative (This is a reflection on that person alone and not an attempt to project onto other INFJs, real or imagined)

One could reasonably conclude that I perhaps have met some INFJs in my life but that they haven't aligned with the often idealised descriptions you find discussing INFJs - or simply that INFJs don't really make themselves known. Certainly I don't discuss my typing with, well, anybody - as its really only relevant to myself and perhaps INFJs I have met have felt likewise.

I'm curious if others here think that perhaps our sometimes idealised view of INFJs exaggerates their rarity.


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