# ENTJ or ESFJ?



## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

Oh yay I thought of more! 


He can say some harsh truths that hurt my feelings and he doesn't realize it until I start crying. Darn my Fe -.-x
Doesn't express negative feelings (tired, annoyed, frustrated) when he should; He ends up telling me if I make him lose his patience
He can get overly upset and lecture me. I made the same mistake twice and got a really bad lecture for that z_z
He tends to want to cater to my wants, which means me choosing where to eat, and sometimes I don't feel like choosing because I get tired from planning things (I do a lot of event planning.. it sucks lol)
He doesn't seem to like event planning. When he does, it has to work out perfectly or he seems disappointed, like it should have been a perfect plan
I have a feeling he's not good with spontaneous planning. I'm perfectly fine with it, but if it doesn't turn out well, he's not very happy
In the beginning, he used to be impatient when I'd get upset and he'd want me to tell him why. It takes me like 5-10 minutes or more to collect my emotions and thoughts and he seemed like he wanted an answer right away
Yay. That took a little bit of thinking. xD I think I might worry that he'll get impatient if I can't voice an opinion or tell him something right away.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

I haven't read the thread past the OP but
@Ahiko
organized ENFP


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Hmm. Well, I share some of those traits in my personal life. My room is usually messy, as I stay stressed and rushed a lot. I don't take too kindly to repeated mistakes, either (then again, who really likes them?). I play video games and/or read a lot in my free time. It's pretty much the only way I can escape stress. Probably will add years to my life. Se is our tertiary function; we can appreciate the present at times.

However, I don't see any of those as pointing strongly in any direction. Not being good at spontaneous planning doesn't fit, but that was just your best-guess explanation of his behavior. I guess the best thing to do would be to sit him down with DETAILED descriptions of Ni and Si and make him choose one. lol


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## Wounded Bird (Aug 28, 2010)

Sovereign is right in that either ESTJ or ENTJ could fit your bf. I don't think ESFJ does, from what you've said.

ESTJs do have Ne as their tertiary function, and that could be a major part of your connection if he is an ESTJ. If he is an ENTJ, the fact that he is also an iNtuitive would likely be part of the connection. Both, like NFPs, use Fi. 

Both ESTJs and ENTJs can easily become workaholics. Both can be bossy. Judge Judy is a good example of a stereotypical, aggressive ESTJ. However, not all ESTJs are as mean as she tends to be. ENTJs are often hold managerial positions in corporations, but I imagine so do ESTJs. 

Does your bf like talking about abstract, intellectual topics often? Does he tend to use figurative language, metaphors, similes in his speech? Does he have a vivid imagination? Any of those things would like lean toward ENTJ.

ESTJs, as stated above, are more tradition oriented and concrete. They generally have little tolerance for matters they consider too abstract or theoretical. They are more focused on the world around them than on lofty intellectual concepts. They often have a dislike of people who deviate too far from the status quo. They think there is a certain, "right way" to do everything that is based on extensive evidence of past success. 

I imagine an ESTJ computer programmer would be more likely to take proven methods and apply them efficiently and consistently to get results. An ENTJ programmer would be more likely to come up with imaginative new solutions when possible.


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## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I haven't read the thread past the OP but
> @Ahiko
> organized ENFP


I'm only organized with things on computers and technology (document organization, writing out lists, etc), but when it comes to my real life stuff like my room it can be pretty unorganized. Always out of the house too much to have time to clean my room! XD


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## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

Wounded Bird said:


> Does your bf like talking about abstract, intellectual topics often? Does he tend to use figurative language, metaphors, similes in his speech? Does he have a vivid imagination? Any of those things would like lean toward ENTJ.


He can use all of the above. I know he has a good imagination. His ideas seem more practical and concrete rather than abstract. He does seem to like when I tell stories and how I describe what I'm thinking about because my ideas can be pretty out there. As for talking about theoretical and figurative topics, my explanations are really scattered and his are always more dead on. This is usually after watching movies together and we're talking about them after. My interpretation is always more "What the heck. That doesn't make sense" Sometimes he teases me when my interpretation is really off and then explains his interpretation. But when he explains it, it makes perfect sense. In a few lines too, as opposed to my paragraphs. His way with words... -__-;;

I like how it all works out, though. He's amused by my spontaneous thoughts and creative thoughts and I like his honest and accurate thinking. It's as if our different perspectives help add to our ideas because we wouldn't have thought of the other's ideas on our own.

I do love reading literature and books occasionally. He'd rather watch movies. He feels that "movies inspire imagination" and "they save time", which I agree on both parts, but I feel that reading literature inspires our own imagination, and I do value being able to nurture one's own imagination. I asked him to read this and he complained it was too long and didn't understand why reading a short prose could make me so emotional. 



> ESTJs, as stated above, are more tradition oriented and concrete. They generally have little tolerance for matters they consider too abstract or theoretical. They are more focused on the world around them than on lofty intellectual concepts. They often have a dislike of people who deviate too far from the status quo. They think there is a certain, "right way" to do everything that is based on extensive evidence of past success.
> 
> I imagine an ESTJ computer programmer would be more likely to take proven methods and apply them efficiently and consistently to get results. An ENTJ programmer would be more likely to come up with imaginative new solutions when possible.


I can see him being rather tradition oriented. He values spending holidays with his family, likes to celebrate people's birthdays. We don't celebrate the monthly anniversary (we think that's a little weird), but we'll see how the one year goes.  I can tell he'd be glad to start yearly traditions with me, though.


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## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

@Sovereign

Which would you relate to with solving a problem? 

1) More concerned with knowing for sure *what* is going on so you can fix it
2) More concerned with *why* it's going on so that they can thoroughly fix it


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

@Ahiko

Both. 

However, instead of "thoroughly fix it", maybe sub in "avoid it in the future." It's indeed important to solve individual problems. However, it's perhaps even more important to build a system that creates as few problems as possible. In a retail example, I'd rather put someone else on the specific problem (calming the irate customer who's been waiting for 45 minutes) while I fix the system (change the policy regarding the number of people it takes in queue to open up a 3rd register).


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

After rethinking, the why is much more important than the what. If you take out the root, the specific problem doesn't matter at all. It goes away regardless.


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## AbioticPrime (Sep 1, 2011)

Why hasn't anyone mentioned ENFJ yet...?


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## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

Serial Hero said:


> Why hasn't anyone mentioned ENFJ yet...?


I'm not sure if he would fit ENFJ.

I actually have an ENFJ female friend and her F makes her super emotional, even I can't stand it. Her feelings rule her judgments and decisions. I see no comparison between the two of them.  F's in general can be pretty darn emotional, and all the Fs I know can have their emotional sprees (ESFJ mom, ENFJ friend, ENFP friend & me).

I did have an INTJ friend who is also a computer programmer, and he and my boyfriend would usually give me the same opinion when I asked them about things. They always looked at every situation objectively and used some sort of rational system to interpret it. Their interpretations were usually dead on exactly the same. The main difference I noticed was where their ideals lie.

My INTJ friend doesn't believe in following traditions. He feels that traditions are more detrimental to society because they're the root of many flaws in US government. The rest, I can't word as well as he does.. something along how religion is based on intangible ideas and morals that have no proven origin. He could go on and on, but the more technical he got, the less I could understand.  My ideals are way too different for him and I admit it would've taken me a while to understand what he was talking about because it was new to me. For a computer programmer to be so involved in politics, that's freaking ridiculous. INTJs and their endless knowledge is insane. 

My boyfriend does believe in traditions and feels they're important to keep, but he didn't really explain why. It just seemed more like it was the "normal" thing to do, which he seems perfectly okay with. (He was busy owning his friends up on Madden '12, so he probably didn't feel like explaining things. ) He failed at explaining the Moon Festival to me and he's Chinese.. So that.. is an epic Asian fail. -___-"



Sovereign said:


> I have no Si. I don't internalize rules or norms. I don't value tradition. I don't generally pick the "proven option" unless it fits the path to my goal that my Ni has generated. If you see much use of the Si function at all, he's probably ESTJ.


Sovereign mentioned that a while back!

At this point, I'm pretty sure he's ESTJ.  Yay!


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Ahiko said:


> I'm not sure if he would fit ENFJ.
> 
> I actually have an ENFJ female friend and her F makes her super emotional, even I can't stand it. Her feelings rule her judgments and decisions. I see no comparison between the two of them.  F's in general can be pretty darn emotional, and all the Fs I know can have their emotional sprees (ESFJ mom, ENFJ friend, ENFP friend & me).
> 
> ...


Figured I'd throw this out there: "normal" is an Si construct, at its core. We all have a sense of normal, because we all use Si to some extent. Memory is related to Si, I think. We can all judge whether something is normal, to some extent. If your mayonnaise on your sandwich has gone bad, you'll probably be able to tell very quickly that the mayonnaise doesn't taste like the mayonnaise that you've eaten previously. 

I think the strength of our Si determines how much we actually care about the concept in real-world situations, and in what way. To an Si user, differing from the norm would most likely be "bad," or at least a less attractive option. To other functions, particularly Se, differing from the norm would actually be MORE attractive. It's "interesting." The Mayo example doesn't really apply here, though. I don't know any Se-users that would eat old mayo because it is "interesting," but the example still holds for Si-related purposes. :wink:

It sounds like you got a mature, well-rounded ESTJ. :happy:

Also, in an interesting twist; I am also a computer programmer. lol


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## Ahiko (Dec 20, 2011)

Sovereign said:


> Figured I'd throw this out there: "normal" is an Si construct, at its core. We all have a sense of normal, because we all use Si to some extent. Memory is related to Si, I think. We can all judge whether something is normal, to some extent. If your mayonnaise on your sandwich has gone bad, you'll probably be able to tell very quickly that the mayonnaise doesn't taste like the mayonnaise that you've eaten previously.
> 
> I think the strength of our Si determines how much we actually care about the concept in real-world situations, and in what way. To an Si user, differing from the norm would most likely be "bad," or at least a less attractive option. To other functions, particularly Se, differing from the norm would actually be MORE attractive. It's "interesting." The Mayo example doesn't really apply here, though. I don't know any Se-users that would eat old mayo because it is "interesting," but the example still holds for Si-related purposes. :wink:
> 
> ...


lol that's hilarious. I'm surrounded by computer programmers.  You guys are my favorites! I'm actually studying computer science, too, but I feel like the ideas are a little more challenging for me to grasp. My boyfriend and my INTJ friend can explain all the concepts to me in the simplest metaphors, and I just can't get over how good they are at breaking down programming logic for me. You guys are so lucky to have your TJs on your side with programming. 

Thanks much for all your help and input! I really appreciate it.


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## ReflecTcelfeR (Jul 28, 2011)

I would just like to mention that a value function makes you conscientious, it doesn't force you to be emotional, or nice. It makes you aware.

Maybe Te is fitting. I still wouldn't rule out ESFJ just because you think they can't be logical.


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

Ahiko said:


> lol that's hilarious. I'm surrounded by computer programmers.  You guys are my favorites! I'm actually studying computer science, too, but I feel like the ideas are a little more challenging for me to grasp. My boyfriend and my INTJ friend can explain all the concepts to me in the simplest metaphors, and I just can't get over how good they are at breaking down programming logic for me. You guys are so lucky to have your TJs on your side with programming.
> 
> Thanks much for all your help and input! I really appreciate it.


It is indeed the Te (which you have as a tertiary, so you can develop it relatively easily, too). However, the Ni helps a lot as well in designing an efficient, all-encompassing structure. Si would also be well-suited here, as it is adept at working in the "known." To Si, it's "how can I best work in what I already know works, then build from that." Ti/Ne is also well-suited here (for any lurking xNTPs), simply because there's no "right" way to do things while programming, assuming that the same results would be achieved regardless.

As for the rest, you're quite welcome. I enjoy things like this. With that, I guess, I'm out. Don't be a stranger. :happy:


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