# Sx instinct and neurodivergence



## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

*If this has already been covered somewhere in-depth, please direct me there; I did a search but didn't find anything.

When I first read descriptions of the Sx instinctual variant that speak of its "high energy," "desire to meld" and "laser like intensity," the first associations I made were to "hyper-activity" and "hyper-focusing (clinically referred to as perseveration)," something experienced by those (including myself) with ADHD, an ASD or other neurodivergent cognition (personality disorders, OCD, PTSD, brain traumas, etc...). 

From the vantage point of my ADHD: I'm drawn to high stimuli (mentally and physically); I'm very on/off, hot/cold in that I'm either (very) interested or I'm (really) not, whether directed at a person, place or thing; when hyper-focusing on learning about a new interest, for instance, I absorb very large quantities of information in a relatively short period of time and for that moment (it can seem like a moment but end up being much longer), everything else fades away and doesn't seem to matter; it can be rather obsessive, in that I'm *consumed* with this interest, it's all I can think about, and if ever I'm away from it for too long, I become (covertly) moody, anxious and snippy; I'll forgo eating, sleeping and other priorities just to partake in it. Most recently, I've experienced this very phenomenon with population genetics, the most fucking adorable puppy ever, sugarless eating and Croatia. 

Wouldn't all that be defined as "Sx"? I've yet to read anything where someone attempted to establish a direct correlation, though I fully understand why one would be hesitant to link this personality theory and various "neurological conditions" (that may or may not be _actual_ conditions) without substantiated proof. Still, I'm just thinking aloud. 

Moreover, I once read somewhere that the higher Sx appears in one's stacking, the lower the MBTI "J" becomes; and if I interpret my dominant Sx as ADHD, this rings very true. 

1.) I'm a procrastinating, lazy ass E(*I*)*NT*J(*P*) when I'm *particularly* uninspired (read: disinterested); that's when I'm *most* eager to delegate work to others while I sit on my ass, most likely planning/thinking of something else. But when I'm passionate about a project, I embody every terrible/not so terrible archetypal ENTJ stereotype imaginable. Subconsciously, I'm always trying to amp up the energy and raise the stakes. Waiting to the last minute to achieve some objective gives me a palpable rush--I actually thrive under pressure and chaos while making shit happen. 

2.) Though I crave order and structure in my environment, and when fully attentive, can be rather obsessive-compulsive about cleanliness, everything belonging in its proper place, etc..., whenever I'm too busy melding with my interest, none of that shit matters; then, comfort is of secondary importance. One of the happiest/most fulfilling moments of my life was when I was first able to hire "help" to keep me together while I focused on "more important things." And whereas I'm usually anal about being punctual and on-time, if I'm melding to something *particularly* potent, I don't mind being late or even rescheduling/blowing it off altogether. 

It seems to me that, Enneagram aside, the instincts (especially Sx) can significantly impact how a MBTI type manifests, even leading to mistypes; and if Sx is in fact tied to neurodivergence, this makes all the more sense. 

Any thoughts? Or resources that might touch upon this?


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## mrrrmaid (Aug 11, 2018)

Actually I'm really interested in this post because I've considered that I might have ADD but then I read descriptions for my type(s) (ENFP, type 7, sx/so) and all my neurodivergent behaviour _could_ be explained by typology. 

I relate EXACTLY like you said about being a procrastinator a lot of the time and then flipping a switch and going to 110%. It's like I have two modes: stand-by and manic. I collapse when there's no structure around me (or try to fill the space with new hobbies) and my worst periods of anxiety and depression are linked to that. I often get obsessed and hyperfixate on things and will blow off other responsibilities and physical needs to pursue that interest. I also blurt out stuff about it in conversation even if the people around me aren't interested and usually I have a moment just before when I'm like "don't talk about this again" but then I'll talk about the thing immediately after that thought. Also time doesn't seem to work for me: minutes feel like hours sometimes and days feel like minutes other times. Sometimes I'm late without knowing why and generally it's because I'm terrible at predicting how long things take. And don't even start on the amount I fidget / zone out / fixate on random objects if I'm sat still for a while. I've never made it through a hole class without getting distracted. 

But yeah hot/cold interests could be Sx, collecting hobbies 7 / Ne dom, hyperfixating Sx, dominating conversations 7, zoning out 7 / Ne, constant stimulation ExxP / 7 / Sx.

I mentioned in another thread earlier today that a lot of Sx descriptions sound like Borderline Personality Disorder. They also can sound like autism spectrum, like you said. So I think it's important to find a way to distinguish between what is neurodivergence and what is type related. Also on the topic: I imagine a lot of depressed people type 4 and anxious people type 6 but that's their disorders and not their type / motivation. Probably the best way is to look at the core motivation of Sx (4/6) and not the behaviours associated? 

Anyway - nothing to actually add in terms of theory; but I relate! Hope someone has something useful to add or a way to spot the difference.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

This seems rather off. For one thing, I don't think all obsession is necessarily Sx, any instinct can be obsessive over their domain, so it's better to look at the _nature _of said obsession. Of course, I get that something like a disorder makes it tricky to untangle things like that.

Don't think high energy is inherently Sx either. There's a lot of Sx-lasts who are energetic.


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## Girl archer (Apr 28, 2016)

Hey OP, intriguing theory. Makes a lot of sense. But I have a question. Would someone without the above mentioned symptoms/issues be less able to relate to Sexual 7 even if they are one, thinking they are more of a Self Pres 7? If I understand correctly, you are saying that these symptoms may amplify the sx tendencies 10x more than usual?


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

mrrrmaid said:


> Actually I'm really interested in this post because I've considered that I might have ADD but then I read descriptions for my type(s) (ENFP, type 7, sx/so) and all *my neurodivergent behaviour could be explained by typology.*


*Yes.* I think the MBTI and Enneagram systems both (attempt to) account for neurodivergence but when taken altogether, a more complete and accurate picture comes into focus.

Theoretically, if the MBTI/Enneagram + instincts refer to biological drives and environmentally induced motivations (nature and nurture), it makes sense that ADHD and other forms of neurodivergence would manifest *within* that framework, seeing as how they also manifest due to biological and environmental directives. 

At best, Enneagram, MBTI, and Jungian cognitive function profile descriptions reflect mid range "health," (while, ideally, also noting the maladaptive, "unhealthy" extremities) concerning the ways in which the types manifest. And it's moving towards the extremities (where, vulgarly stated, the "cons" begin to outweigh the "pros") that neurodivergent cognition (arguably, _according to objective Te criteria_) becomes more readily apparent and noteworthy in the sense that it might potentially be necessary for some form of formal clinical diagnosis. Having said that, I do agree with argument that what constitutes "abnormality" is predicated upon a deviation from standards that reflect the majority, and, thus, may not in fact be defective and incomplete, hence my preference for the term "neurodivergence" as opposed to neurological "disorder."



mrrrmaid said:


> I relate EXACTLY like you said about being a procrastinator a lot of the time and then flipping a switch and going to 110%. It's like I have two modes: stand-by and manic. I collapse when there's no structure around me (or try to fill the space with new hobbies) and my worst periods of anxiety and depression are linked to that. I often get obsessed and hyperfixate on things and will blow off other responsibilities and physical needs to pursue that interest. I also blurt out stuff about it in conversation even if the people around me aren't interested and usually I have a moment just before when I'm like "don't talk about this again" but then I'll talk about the thing immediately after that thought. Also time doesn't seem to work for me: minutes feel like hours sometimes and days feel like minutes other times. Sometimes I'm late without knowing why and generally it's because I'm terrible at predicting how long things take. And don't even start on the amount I fidget / zone out / fixate on random objects if I'm sat still for a while. I've never made it through a hole class without getting distracted.
> 
> But yeah hot/cold interests could be Sx, collecting hobbies 7 / Ne dom, hyperfixating Sx, dominating conversations 7, zoning out 7 / Ne, constant stimulation ExxP / 7 / Sx.


This tickles me because you sound a lot like me and one of the first threads I created on this site was devoted to figuring out if I were an ENTJ or ENFP and, on its face, that might sound weird to some but depending on the context (*like if the ENTJ has ADHD* lol), both types can appear somewhat similar. 

1.) According to Socionics/8 functions model, ENTJs have strong, though unconsciously valued Ne (ADHD enhances this in me); 2 of my closest friends are an ENTP and ENFP, and *in a playful setting*, we're virtually indistinguishable when considering the ease and facility by which we bounce Ne off of each other. But Ne-doms drive me crazy when I've already managed to Te+Ni a solution to a problem and yet I'm still getting a thousand one-off ideas on how to handle it. lol 

2.) Both ENTJs and ENFPs struggle with Si; for us, it's our PoLR function and my ADHD exaggerates this vulnerability via disdain for details/tidniness/regulating physiological needs. 

3.) Both ENTJs and ENFPs utilize Te but my ADHD (which has some overlap with HSP sensory related issues) gives me an ambiverted quality, thereby (theoretically) making my Te and Ni more level and influential on the other. Subsequently, my Te can have more of a "chatty," rapid fire, loquacious, one-side monologuing, expository bent, which is common for those with ADHD. I've never met an ENTJ sx-dom that couldn't run their mouths, especially on topics of interest; it's the ENTJ sp-doms that are known for being brusque, terse, short on words and long on action.

4.) ADHD can cause a fair amount of emotional dysregulation (overall reactivity, outbursts, aggression, inability to self-soothe, accumulation of negative emotions) and this aligns well with an ENTJ's inferior Fi; however, because of negative consequences due to this behavior, I was forced to address it early on in my life which has made me far more aware than the average ENTJ concerning the role my Fi plays in my "unconscious" decision making. This made me consider whether or not Fi was higher in my stacking. 

So what was the point of that tangential redirection? I don't know. I have ADHD. lol



mrrrmaid said:


> I mentioned in another thread earlier today that a lot of Sx descriptions sound like Borderline Personality Disorder. They also can sound like autism spectrum, like you said. *So I think it's important to find a way to distinguish between what is neurodivergence and what is type related. *Also on the topic: I imagine a lot of depressed people type 4 and anxious people type 6 but that's their disorders and not their type / motivation. Probably the best way is to look at the core motivation of Sx (4/6) and not the behaviours associated?
> 
> Anyway - nothing to actually add in terms of theory; but I relate! Hope someone has something useful to add or a way to spot the difference.


Again, I think the aforementioned typing systems *organically* take neurodivergence into account; but unfortunately, at the expense of clarity, it just all comes down to shades and gradients and degrees and extents, which further muddies the already murky, opaque waters that is "typology". 

1.) For example, at the extreme (read: "unhealthy"), Ne can veer into _inattentive_ ADHD that may preclude someone from holding down a job and Se could manifest as _impulsive_ ADHD that may lead someone into high risk, potentially fatal behaviors. Unhealthy/Imbalanced/Atypical type 5s on the enneagram might be Schizotypal and unhealthy/Imbalanced/Atypical type 8s could have Antisocial Personality Disorder--and not for nothing, but similarly to those disorders, both 5s and 8s are rarer types among mankind, which in and of itself, suggests an "outlier," divergent form of being. And speaking of outliers, allegedly Sx is the rarest and most recently evolved of the instincts; IMO, it might be one of the few attributes (read: variables) that is just peculiar and impactful enough to make a noticeable and traceable differential in how the correlative typing systems manifest individually and cumulatively. 

2.) And I agree that its best to consider the type's core motivation as opposed to the behavior in so much as the behaviors usually take shape according to the mold of the underlying motivations. 

For example:

I'm ADHD-combination inattentive/hyperactive-impulsive type, which is characterized, in part, by high energy (with a palpable, charismatic, "in your face" charge), impulsivity, emotional reactivity (usually volatile and aggressive), an inability to endure boredom, vivid imagination and creativity, an endless parade of thoughts and ideas, hyperfocusing on interests and special hobbies, a heightened sensitivity to sight/smell/touch/sound, being highly attuned to the body language and "energy" of others, zoning out of the immediate environment, a propensity for scattered disorderliness, etc.....

And these are my personality typings and what they represent, in and of themselves.

a.]MBTI: ENTJ/Socionics: LIE-Ni > Se is the hidden agenda, which is to be present, strong, powerful and successful; embodies the "will to power"/Commander/Fieldmarshal/Pioneer/CEO

b.]Enneagram 8w7 > Seeks "power" and control over the environment in order to avoid being harmed, weak, vulnerable and exploited. Is fiery, mentally alert, offense oriented, asserts himself in the environment, prone to impulsive recklessness. 

c.] Sx-Sp > utilizes the self-preservational impulse out in the world to acquire what is necessary for my body (and the bodies of those I protect) to adequately survive, in order to, *most importantly*, focus with unyielding laser focused energy, to the point of merging and becoming one, with the object(s) of my desire. 

What's interesting is that my ADHD neurological orientation seemingly merges somewhat effortlessly with all of my personality typings, which suggests that some degree of neurodivergence might be hardwired into these types. 

All the above considered/included, my brand of ENTJ, *at the core *(excluding my extensive growth and maturation beyond this point lol) ostensibly blends rather easily with EXTPs > charged up, intense, intellectual, charismatic, affable, off beat, generous, curious, possesses the gift of gab, action oriented, protective, somewhat sentimental, intrusive in physicality, pedantic, long winded, trollish, confrontational, extremely reactive, recklessness prone, crass, lusty, manipulative, conniving, obsessive, covetous, secretive, paranoid, overbearing, domineering, vengeful and a bit grandiose. lol Fuck. These days that creature is largely kept at bay. 

An ENTJ 1w9 Sp-So (deadpan, sober, restrained, straight laced, buttoned up, tight lipped, perfectionistic) would find my brand of ENTJ to be uniformly repulsive and foreign. lol 

tl;dr I talk too fucking much--it's that Sx instinct, I'm nigh convinced!


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

No, this is a false association.

I've read just about every available resource (paid & free) on instinctual variants & enneagram, and I have never once seen mentioned a link between ADHD and Sx instinct, or even much in regards to "high energy", which I guess is someone's pet translation for the laser focused power brought to relationships & pursuits.

What I have seen linked together is ennea 7's and ADHD like energy. As well as Ne which may possibly be the true cause of behaviors diagnosed as ADHD.

It's a little odd that as an ENTJ you ran so far with an idea with nothing external to back it up, true Ti style, but I'm supposing perhaps you were in your shadow side. 
I also wonder if some disorders might cause deviations in function progression? Maybe.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Remnants said:


> This seems rather off. For one thing, I don't think all obsession is necessarily Sx, any instinct can be obsessive over their domain, so it's better to look at the _nature _of said obsession. Of course, I get that something like a disorder makes it tricky to untangle things like that.
> 
> Don't think high energy is inherently Sx either. There's a lot of Sx-lasts who are energetic.


I thought this would be a given but evidently not...

1.) What I _actually_ said is that "it *can be*," as in, it is *able to be* "obsessive," but not that it "necessarily" was. Also, no where did I use "all" as an adjective in describing "obsession" so you saw things that weren't there. 

2.) Yes, I know that any instinct can be "obsessive" over its domain, but an Sx obsession would be consumed and preoccupied with melding (by way of an, *arousing*, *intensely focused*, *energetic* *fusion*/engagement) with the object of its desire; Sx seeks *chemistry* and *raw attraction*, to be *compelled* and *drawn in* by something or someone. I've yet to read a Sp or So description where a certain brand of "sexual" energy was essential to its operation. I'm speaking about something very particular here. 

"Hyperfocus," as it relates to those with ADHD and an ASD, is believed to stem from a dopamine (neurotransmitter that encourages reward-motivated behavior) deficiency that makes it difficult to shift gears from chemically "pleasurable" activities (read: shit that interests us) to boring, less stimulating/captivating (but sometimes necessary) things that don't provide the same "high." It's hard for us to do things that don't give us instant and immediate bio(electric) feedback. Do you see now? Our brand of "obsession" is primarily concerned with literal chemical underpinnings that draw us to an object in an intensive, sedating, pleasure releasing fashion. That's what the fuck Sx is. 

3.) More givens that evidently weren't givens: the placement of Sx within one's stacking obviously matters concerning how it will manifest; the juxtaposed MBTI and Enneagram types also matter in regards to the Sx manifestation. Though "obsession" exists at the extreme end of the "attachment" continuum, it still will look differently depending on multiple other variables. Dominant Te might be obsessed with learning everything and getting all the facts and dominant Fi might be obsessed with some subjectively idealized, though actually false wet dream for someone who thinks they're a fucking whackjob. 

4.) PLEASE FIND ME A DESCRIPTION OF THE SOCIAL INSTINCT THAT DESCRIBES ITS ENERGETIC MANIFESTATIONS AS A "LASER LIKE INTENSITY" AND "DESIRE TO MELD." Please stop trying to bring vegan patties to the Turkey Fry. You act as if I've shown NO specificity in describing the type of energy Sx encompasses. Sx energy is more primal and predatory, it's magnetic and seeks to "turn on" and be "turned on." Sx energy says "fuck me"; So energy says "love me!" They are different, DUH.



Girl archer said:


> Hey OP, intriguing theory. Makes a lot of sense. But I have a question. Would someone without the above mentioned symptoms/issues be less able to relate to Sexual 7 even if they are one, thinking they are more of a Self Pres 7? If I understand correctly, you are saying that these symptoms may amplify the sx tendencies 10x more than usual?


1.) Famed Author/Professor/Autism Spokesperson Temple Grandin says that "there’s no black and white dividing line between a mild case of autism and geek and nerd. They are the same thing. It is a continuum of traits."

So, to that end, it can be argued that *all* high Ne users/or type 7s, for example, are neurodivergent, it's just that at the extremes, it can come with more uneven benefits potentially or more adverse side effects. And historically, in order for something to be labeled a disorder, there had to be significant impairments to one's ability to optimally function; one's life quality had to be negatively impacted. However, though neurodivergence can certainly come with traits poorly suited to the current norms/standards that constitute neurotypical cognition, there are also gifts, that to some, make up for the deficits. 

Seeing as how XSXJs theoretically comprise the norm, then XNXPs must form the cognitive outliers. So, yes, INTPs are disproportionately represented when it comes to ADD/ADHD diagnoses. But here's something very interesting: do you know which other type is highly represented? ESFJs. (Source, The Secret Lives of INTPs, 2012). In keeping with my theory, many ESFJs have Sx somewhere in their stacking, usually Sx-So or So-Sx. You know what else? THEY ARE TERTIARY NE USERS. Ne and Se are the functions that find the most correlation with "ADD" and "ADHD"; and the tertiary function is an inconsistent, attitudinal, sometimes-y bitch--it can be either embraced or repressed. Just as ADHD seems to raise/elevate the Se of ENXJs, it does the same for Ne in ESXJs. My mother is an ESFJ Entrepreneur and, like me, she is most definitely a combination inattentive/hyperactive-impulse ADHD type with a potent side of Obssessive Compulsive Disorder which makes for *nassssssty* combination. lol

So, hypothetically speaking, if my theory that Sx is related to neurodivergence and the higher in the stacking it occurs, the more readily apparent it is, were to hold up, ENFP 7w6 Sx-So should appear to be more readily neurodivergent than an ENFP 7w6 So-Sx, but in so much as both possess the Sx variant, one is just further a long a continuum. 

2.) It's not so much that neurodivergence amplifies Sx tendencies but the other way around, that Sx does the amplifying. In the OP, I was saying that if the Sx instinct is correlated to some degree of neurodivergence, it makes sense as to why the presence of the Sx instinct (and its placement in one's stacking) can so greatly impact how one's MBTI+Enneagram manifests, to the degree that one can mimic another type. 

So, for example, ENTJ and enneagram 8 usually correspond; I'd say the "stereotypical" CEO brand of ENTJ as personified by the archetypal MBTI profiles is an ENTJ 8 *Sp-So* > blunt, of few words, energetically contained, straight to the point, no nonsense, business oriented, methodical, expansive minded, empire building, not known for being warm and cuddly. 

Now, I'm an ENTJ 8, but an *Sx-Sp*; according to my theory, if Sx represents my neurodivergent ADHD, then it makes a lot of sens as to why I can look more like an EXTP than an ENTJ at first glance. My ADHD (read: Sx dom) makes me more expressive, loud, talkative, amped up, "heady," impulsive and more emotionally reactive. I'm still forward looking and strategic minded like an ENTJ, but having ADHD impulsivity/being an Sx dominant relinquishes some of the strategy for a bit more tactile, in the moment maneuverability. Essentially, being an Sx dominant jacks up my Se "call to action."


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## mrrrmaid (Aug 11, 2018)

I think all the focus on this being a null theory because Sx isn't always high energy is missing the point. Sx certainly can be high energy and tends to be charged when it comes to passion projects and people. For example, descriptions of Sx tend to talk about feeling lost or even 'dead' inside without something to latch onto, and then when they do they throw their all into that thing. 

That description of an Sx dom could very much also be a description of hyperfocus (associated with ADD/ADHD), hyperfixation (associated more broadly with neurodivergent people i.e. depression, anxiety, manic depression, BPD etc) or specialist interests (autism spectrum). 

Speaking personally again, hyperfocus / hyperfixation was one of the things that alerted me to the fact that I'm neurodivergent but then I read a description of how an Sx dom experienced her dominant instinct and it mirrored my experience exactly (she didn't say whether or not she was neurodivergent so maybe she was describing an extreme). Therefore I wouldn't say it's a bad theory to propose that some Sx-doms might be predisposed to that instinct because of their neurodivergence. Obviously there's no evidence yet to support this but I'm p sure OP was proposing a theory to discuss based on their own experience rather than stating the fact.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Sour Roses said:


> No, this is a false association.
> 
> I've read just about every available resource (paid & free) on instinctual variants & enneagram, and I have never once seen mentioned a link between ADHD and Sx instinct, or even much in regards to "high energy", which I guess is someone's pet translation for the laser focused power brought to relationships & pursuits.
> 
> ...


Lol Talk about learning disabilities...

1.) I must be doing something wrong--you're the second person with an evident reading comprehension problem (at the very least) to, upon entering my thread, a.) instantly and miraculously go deaf, dumb and blind or b.) suffer a mini stroke, creating a sensory and memory deficit that prohibits you from accurately recalling the information before you. 

2.) A "false association" according to whom or what? lol Can you prove somehow that I made a "false association?" NOPE. Most of this shit is theoretical and rather pseudo-scientific until it (hopefully) becomes more empirically backed/supported. I'm just conjecturing, same as you. 

3.) Please learn to properly read, not limited to decoding context clues, before you attempt a critique and fail. I qualified my association of ADHD with the Sx instinct based on more than just "high energy." And since writing the OP, I've reiterated/fortified my arguments several times throughout the thread. You're either dumb or intellectually dishonest. Pick your poison. 

4.) Again, either dumb or intellectually dishonest. Dumb is looking more and more likely. 

a.) Though not consciously valued, Te dominants have strong Ti and, when so inclined, can engage it with facility. ENTJs are NTs, DUH, and like the rest, possess no true hardship when it comes to asserting and assessing logic and rationale. So fuck off. 

b.) *So I start off the thread* referencing information gathered from an external source (Te) before I pulled back the hood and looked for logical consistency and an overarching framework that might lend to greater clarity and truth (Ti). I also used Te data points about ADHD in juxtaposition to the Te data points I possessed concerning the Sx instinct. That's what Te does Dear, it compares rationale in order to create a hierarchy based on the greatest/likeliest truth. And when there is a discrepancy, Ti steps in to analyze. I also utilized anecdotal evidence, which, while it isn't the same as having scientific evidence, isn't completely without merit. And then in every long winded ass comment I've made since the OP, Te comprises the foundational underpinnings. 

5.) Try that unnecessary, unwarranted, snarky, punching above your pay grade, low cunning, passive-aggressive bullshit somewhere else; it won't work here. You're ill suited for the job.


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## Aerari (Jun 27, 2018)

Why so angry?


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Aerari said:


> Why so angry?


lol I didn't realize I was angry until a few minutes after I pressed "submit." 

I believe that if we're going to debate/argue, we must do so in good faith. To me, it's "sinful" and the height of bad faith to misrepresent someone's argument by mis-attributing/mis-ascribing points and stances I never made and discounting the ones I actually did. I take that as an act of hostility--the facts are everything and so there's no room for misinformation. I try to use a fair amount of precision in crafting and articulating what I think and will only be diplomatic so long as I'm debated according to the thoughts I've put forth, in all of the nuance and context I (most likely) provided. 

It may ostensibly seem like I'm hyper sensitive to critique, but *nope*, not at all; I enjoy having my ideas challenged, but again, only according to what I've *actually* put forth. Logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty don't get passes. Because, again, the facts are everything. Don't fucking misrepresent the facts or else, we can't argue in good faith. IMO, there must be certain parameters we strictly adhere to when debating.


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## Aerari (Jun 27, 2018)

Sven The Returned said:


> lol I didn't realize I was angry until a few minutes after I pressed "submit."
> 
> I believe that if we're going to debate/argue, we must do so in good faith. To me, it's "sinful" and the height of bad faith to misrepresent someone's argument by mis-attributing/mis-ascribing points and stances I never made and discounting the ones I actually did. I take that as an act of hostility--the facts are everything and so there's no room for misinformation. I try to use a fair amount of precision in crafting and articulating what I think and will only be diplomatic so long as I'm debated according to the thoughts I've put forth, in all of the nuance and context I (most likely) provided.
> 
> It may ostensibly seem like I'm hyper sensitive to critique, but *nope*, not at all; I enjoy having my ideas challenged, but again, only according to what I've *actually* put forth. Logical fallacies and intellectual dishonesty don't get passes. Because, again, the facts are everything. Don't fucking misrepresent the facts or else, we can't argue in good faith. IMO, there must be certain parameters we strictly adhere to when debating.


You might be spiralling yourself down... Well, whatever.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Aerari said:


> You might be spiralling yourself down... Well, whatever.


Figured out what the deeper problem was...and Incidentally, this served as another confirmation of my Te-dominance, so thanks for that. 

1.) > *Caught unawares*, I'm particularly hostile when my ego function is being critiqued (read: condescended and antagonized) by those who are Te PoLR and/or inferior Te users. Especially for those who are Te PoLR, this can get pretty nasty, very quickly because alongside the bulkiness and inept clumsiness that manifest as they oftentimes wield it, the deeper insecurity, distrust and disdain they have for it as a judgment function also manages to seep through. This more aptly explains why I perceived some form of hostility and reacted accordingly. 

I've worked with a shit ton of ISFJs over the years and have an INFJ friend and it was surprising to find out that many of them, at some point, found me to be rather "harsh" and "oppressive." lol Yikes. And the only way I came to that conclusion was through their occasional, torch lit revolts. lol I'd pick up that they were challenging me (and resisting their deeper subconscious angst), but was often too busy to engage; but I had no idea that they saw themselves as "pushing back" against my alleged Te "assaults." lol And that was never my intent, but especially in a busy work environment, Te mode takes no prisoners and refuses to hold hands. I learned to use a lot more role Fe but at the same time, if Te is a vulnerable function for you, then a high octane office environment may not be the best fit; but in the real world not everyone has ideal choices concerning what they do. That being said, on a personality forum, with as many (however dubious lol) INFJs as there are around here claiming to be MBTI experts/mystical seers/Jung reincarnated, I'd think there'd be an understanding with some of them that the very types we are discussing, we (allegedly) possess ourselves and enact in real time, which might cause potential conflicts. So "tread _mindfully_." But, alas....

2.) But thanks for being an optimal INFJ (who utilizes what you excel at lol), with direct Fe engagement and open-ended, subtle prompting that allowed me to dig a bit deeper and readjust for myself. Effective and appreciated.


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

Sven The Returned said:


> Lol Talk about learning disabilities...
> a.) instantly and miraculously go deaf, dumb and blind or b.) suffer a mini stroke, creating a sensory and memory deficit that prohibits you from accurately recalling the information before you. ...
> You're either dumb or intellectually dishonest. Pick your poison. ...
> Again, either dumb or intellectually dishonest. Dumb is looking more and more likely. ...
> ...



Do you have tourette's or something?! I removed all the filler from the above so you can see clearly how much ranting you did. Talk about a freak out! 
Can't take discussion & disagreement, huh? You need everyone to validate you all the time?




> That's what Te does Dear, it compares rationale in order to create a hierarchy based on the greatest/likeliest truth. And when there is a discrepancy, Ti steps in to analyze. I also utilized anecdotal evidence, which, while it isn't the same as having scientific evidence, isn't completely without merit. And then in every long winded ass comment I've made since the OP, Te comprises the foundational underpinnings.



I have never seen an ENTJ have this level of trouble defending their position that they resort to having an utter hissy fit. 
In fact I've seen the opposite attitude, enjoyment at having their theories challenged or even just more clearly explaining something when they believe they're right. 
If you claim this is a product of Te, Sir I am sorry, but you are doing the function and type a disservice.


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## Aerari (Jun 27, 2018)

Sven The Returned said:


> 2.) But thanks for being an optimal INFJ (who utilizes what you excel at lol), with direct Fe engagement and open-ended, subtle prompting that allowed me to dig a bit deeper and readjust for myself. Effective and appreciated.


Shall we dance my Ne-Fi dance?


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Sour Roses said:


> Do you have tourette's or something?! I removed all the filler from the above so you can see clearly how much ranting you did. Talk about a freak out!
> Can't take discussion & disagreement, huh? You need everyone to validate you all the time?


1.) Tourette's? Are you fucking referring to my motherfucking profanity? The technical term is called coprolalia and yes, it does stem from a misfiring inhibitory response mechanism closely linked to Tourette's (approximately 10% experience this); Tourette's and ADHD overlap 50% of time seeing as how similar parts of the brain are affected; I most likely have a mild form of coprolalia and it feels so fucking good to articulate; moreover, studies have shown that the most prolific swearers tend to possess the most expansive and impressive vernaculars. I relate to this, of course, and, _naturally_, wouldn't expect you to. 

2.) Someone in this conversation is a fucking idiot and it certainly isn't me. I've had 3 successful interactions with other posters thus far in this thread, each rooted in a mutually civil, informative back and forth; one of my favorite things to do in life is argue/debate/discuss and ferociously so. But, admittedly, I'm not good with incompetents who don't quite realize they're incompetent. The inept simpletons improperly utilizing Te as they waded neck deep in illogical fallacies were handled accordingly. 

3.) All the validation I need in life is currently resting pretty in my bank account; it would be *impossible* for you to achieve that type of worth and significance to me. Furthermore, I created this thread solely for the purpose of possibly finding greater clarity and truth--which might not be so lofty an ideal to those with *obviously* submerged logic. lol 



Sour Roses said:


> I have never seen an ENTJ have this level of trouble defending their position that they resort to having an utter hissy fit.
> In fact I've seen the opposite attitude, enjoyment at having their theories challenged or even just more clearly explaining something when they believe they're right.
> If you claim this is a product of Te, Sir I am sorry, but you are doing the function and type a disservice.


1.) I had already "defended" my positions throughout the thread by the time you made your first shittastic, ignorant, uninformed, woefully ill begotten post. I have no trouble defending my thoughts *whatsoever* and certainly not against the likes of you--my Ti is unconscious and unvalued and still *automatically* sharts all over yours on my worst day, with a knife through my skull and a migraine headache, upon which I OD on pain meds, and drift off into a lifelong coma. You must have more deleted chromosomes than I originally thought if you think you're going get over with that argument. For shame. lol

2.) I do my type a disservice? Heh. This coming from the socially remedial (alleged) INFJ who flagrantly violated the Fe structures I put into place in the OP (via my purposefully referring to the various cognition types I was going to discuss as "neurodivergence") by way of your deliberate decision to call them "disorders." Which is most likely why your transparent, psychic screams of "OH NOOOOS, I'M AN SX DOM, I CAN'T BE A FREAK, EVEN THOUGH I STILL DESPERATELY NEED TO BE RARE AND MYSTICAL IN ORDER TO HAVE VALUE SO I'M STILL GOING TO PRETEND TO BE A FAUX ASS, DOLLAR STORE, BITCH ON A BUDGET INFJ, JUST DON'T SAY I HAVE A MENTAL DISORDER...WHICH WOULD ACTUALLY EXPLAIN MY 4 SPIDER TERRARIUMS, CONSPICUOUSLY SPRAWLED OUT BARELY READ WICCAN SPELLBOOKS, SHRIVELED UP BARELY SOUND PRODUCING LARNYX AND VENTURING OUT ON THE FRONT PORCH TO SEE SUNLIGHT TWICE A YEAR WHERE UPON A STRAY SQUIRREL FART 200 MILES AWAY TRIGGERS MY INFERIOR SE" read so clearly for what it was > wanting to protect your own ass-based, rudimentary Ti "logic" rooted in something pulled from the farthest reaches of your intestinal tract. Not to mention, you totally took a not so obvious manipulative Fe dig at my typing, likely as an additional transparent attempt to dissuade me from further ruining your misunderstood, tortured, inhumanly empathic and rare but otherwise perfectly normal INFJ wet dream.

3.) But...let's be serious for a moment. You really do vibe like a delusional, one dimensional ISFP with an overactive, yet unreliable tertiary Ni; nothing about you says INFJ. Either that, or you're one of those resentfully weak willed, eternal doormat predispositioned but pitiably trying to finally grow a backbone and RESIST on the anonymous interwebs before shrinking back into nothingness "Hitler was an INFJ/We can be bad too/Please believe I'm edgy" type lames.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

Hm, I know that neurodivergency can make socionics type harder to figure out, and stuff like anxiety can make one mistype as a head type, which was my case. However, I haven't thought if that could also mess with the instincts. Maybe hyperfixations can mimic sx instinct to some degree so it also messes up this part. But being honest, this needs more fact checking as I haven't seen any studies about the matter.


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## Sven The Returned (Feb 10, 2018)

Dragheart Luard said:


> Hm, I know that neurodivergency can make socionics type harder to figure out, and stuff like anxiety can make one mistype as a head type, which was my case. However, I haven't thought if that could also mess with the instincts. Maybe hyperfixations can mimic sx instinct to some degree so it also messes up this part. *But being honest, this needs more fact checking as I haven't seen any studies about the matter.*


Agreed. Very little else nags at me worse about personality typing than empirical data being scarce, inaccessible and/or non-existent. 

But if instincts refer to fundamental biological imperatives that all humans possess, how could neurodiverent cognition *not* be included? IMO, the Sp and So instincts are easily resolved/squared away as far as their most immediate pragmatic human value; and I can even imagine the Sx instinct pragmatically functioning as some sort of fertility booster/facilitator for primitive humans. lol But at the point where Sx began to meld with...objects. lol I mean, c'mon. Now we're undeniably getting into "that one over there is...unique" territory. I'd imagine the Sx "melding with objects" phenomena was strong in ancient "Blacksmiths"; and in that instance, the pragmatic and societal necessity for (War/protection/expansion oriented) products requiring that its makers sustain heightened mental intensity and "hyper focus" in order to not only keep up with supply/demand production but the attention to detail and craftsmanship, becomes rather clear and important. A Blacksmith creating a powerful, beautiful, flawless weapon should be like lovemaking of a sort. And I refuse to believe that they were "normal" guys "just like everyone else." lol


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

Sven The Returned said:


> yes, it does stem from a misfiring inhibitory response mechanism closely linked to Tourette's (approximately 10% experience this); Tourette's and ADHD overlap 50% of time seeing as how similar parts of the brain are affected; I most likely have a mild form of coprolalia and it feels so fucking good to articulate



Clearly this thread was an attempt to rationalize problems. 

I'm sorry if my participation got in the way of your coping mechanisms, I'll leave you to it.




> my purposefully referring to the various cognition types I was going to discuss as "neurodivergence") by way of your deliberate decision to call them "disorders."



Merriam-Webster 
Definition of *Disorder* noun

1 : lack of order • clothes in disorder
2 : breach of the peace or public order • troubled times marked by social disorders
*3 : an abnormal physical or mental condition* • a liver disorder • a personality disorder


Merriam-Webster 
Definition of *Neurodivergent*

_The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above._



Keep talking to me about logic. 
I try not to use words that don't properly exist. 

It wasn't to purposefully hurt you, but there is a whole community to think of when it comes to inventing additional stereotypes, and I believe it's imperative to act responsibly for the sake of all those yet to come.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Sven The Returned said:


> When I first read descriptions of the Sx instinctual variant that speak of its "high energy," "desire to meld" and "laser like intensity," the first associations I made were to "hyper-activity" and "hyper-focusing (clinically referred to as perseveration)," something experienced by those (including myself) with ADHD, an ASD or other neurodivergent cognition (personality disorders, OCD, PTSD, brain traumas, etc...).


I'm a sx/sp 513 ENTJish INTJ, high average to healthy range in health level (e5). I have no "neurodivergence" (unless you include being a HSP). I don't associate the "high energy" of sx with anything you listed. To me sx energy has a particular 'alive' radiating-from-the-core feel to it -- it can be magnetic, making you want to 'plug in'. If you take someone with ADHD or OCD, for example, the energy/vibe feels different -- more 'bouncy', more surface level, 'nervous energy'. More like what I see in my Ne dominant e7 friends.



> ...I absorb very large quantities of information in a relatively short period of time and for that moment (it can seem like a moment but end up being much longer), everything else fades away and doesn't seem to matter; it can be rather obsessive, in that I'm *consumed* with this interest, it's all I can think about, and if ever I'm away from it for too long, I become (covertly) moody, anxious and snippy; I'll forgo eating, sleeping and other priorities just to partake in it. Most recently, I've experienced this very phenomenon with...


I do the stack of information absorbed quickly thing too (although I see that as an e5 thing in me). I always attributed the world fading out, forgetting meals etc as more inferior Se or me just being 'in the zone'. Typical for a HSP, I get annoyed if people interrupt me while I'm concentrating. I seem to differ from you in that I don't take up new interests very frequently (I prefer to strive for a mastery level in a few things I stick at) and it's more a consistent controlled 'build' (part of 'the plan') rather than an obsession which controls/consumes me. 



> Moreover, I once read somewhere that the higher Sx appears in one's stacking, the lower the MBTI "J" becomes; and if I interpret my dominant Sx as ADHD, this rings very true.


I'm very high in J and unquestionably sx.



> It seems to me that, Enneagram aside, the instincts (especially Sx) can significantly impact how a MBTI type manifests, even leading to mistypes; and if Sx is in fact tied to neurodivergence, this makes all the more sense.


Instinct is meant to be filtered through/affected by the personality. But I see no reason an instinct should be tied to what you're referring to here (in a 'healthy person). Riso/Hudson (The Wisdom of the Enneagram) say "when they are unhealthy, Sexual types can experience a scattering of their attention and a profound lack of focus."



Remnants said:


> *Don't think high energy is inherently Sx either*. There's a lot of Sx-lasts who are energetic.


There's a lot of non sexual types (so + sp) who have sex. The 'but-someone-else-does-it' argument isn't valid when the point is about something deeper and patterns discovered on that level.



Sour Roses said:


> I've read just about every available resource (paid & free) on instinctual variants & enneagram, and I have never once seen mentioned a link between ADHD and Sx instinct, *or even much in regards to "high energy"*, which I guess is someone's pet translation for the laser focused power brought to relationships & pursuits.


It's more frequently found than "someone's pet translation". On sx:

"Governs our sexuality, intimate relationships and close friendships, *and the vitality of the life force within our bodies*"
https://www.enneagramworldwide.com/instinctual-subtypes/ 

"The self-preserving instinct represents the lowest and the sexual *the highest energy level.*"
Subtypes - Enneagram Monthly

"The energy projected is described as *"high energy"* and is often experienced as "intense" and laser-like, appearing to be intently focused, and is usually playful and light, yet penetrating in nature. There is a sense of energy and vibration..."
Sexual Enneastyle


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