# Work References and Covert Sabotage



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

I think some employers I've been interviewing with have been contacting my previous employer as a reference before even interviewing with me. Do you think this is unethical? I believe that whatever my previous boss said has colored their perception of me before they even met with me. 

Now this is problematic, because my manager _offered _to serve as a reference. All of my performance reviews were good, and I worked tirelessly, even taking on other people's work, because they were so slow and "swamped" all the time. And those on the team concluded that I had "added value" during my tenure. But ultimately my boss still sees me as too artistic for a traditional job, and has asked me up until the day that I left am I bored. I was working up until the moment I clocked out for the last time! Only people left in the building were me, my manager, and a VP. No I'm not bored, I'm burnt out and emotionally dysregulated. 

Also let me say that everyone on the team knows my MBTI, because I had to take an assessment during the hiring process. No surprise, then, that my boss frequently says I remind her of William Shakespeare's Hamlet. And that I should seriously consider being an actress. WTH? I need a stable income in the here and now. And I'm not super conscientious, but I'm capable of acting like it at work. I work without stop! 

At an interview I had a few weeks ago I felt so happy that the woman was speaking honestly and telling me I was "too good" for the job and overqualified. I was so weak to flattery that I didn't stop to consider why she kept saying she was worried I would get bored. I don't experience boredom. I thought I would finally go for the quiet, routine job that would reset my poor nervous system.

One more clue is that the recruiter asked me for my references before my first interview. I had already provided them as the online application wouldn't allow me to advance without doing so. I declined, telling him that he should please not bother my references until just before they were prepared to make an offer. During the interview, the hiring manager was so nice and lovely to talk to, almost like we really clicked. But she was constantly reading from a second screen and preoccupied with whatever was on it.

So is it possible that these employers have been contacting references and starting the interview process from a place of bias? Or have I been paranoid and cynical? Some weird combination of the two?


----------



## Ms. Aligned (Aug 26, 2021)

Have someone call pretending to check your reference and see what they say?


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

Ms. Aligned said:


> Have someone call pretending to be checking your reference and see what they say?


That's really good advice. Not sure I know anyone who could maintain the level of acting required to ask about pretend corporate job skills. I need to think about that!


----------



## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

If you're in the USA (looks like you are) there are a lot of laws about what your old employer can tell a prospective one. Typically it's really minimal stuff like job title and dates of employment. The one allowed question that could possibly muck you up is "Would you hire OrchidSugar again?" 

Now if you old employer is particularly petty and on the small side, they might try to skirt the law and say something really negative. Also keep in mind that if you work in a smaller job market, your old employer can also pass around rumors about you. 

Last time I had to hunt for a job, I would get contacted by recruiters who would sell some sweet sounding job, and then just ghost me. It had me fairly paranoid for a while that I had been blackballed by the NSA, CIA and every business with more than 5 employees LOL. Apparently this is a fairly common experience, so I wouldn't dwell on it too much.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

OrchidSugar said:


> I think some employers I've been interviewing with have been contacting my previous employer as a reference before even interviewing with me. Do you think this is unethical? I believe that whatever my previous boss said has colored their perception of me before they even met with me.
> 
> Now this is problematic, because my manager _offered _to serve as a reference. All of my performance reviews were good, and I worked tirelessly, even taking on other people's work, because they were so slow and "swamped" all the time. And those on the team concluded that I had "added value" during my tenure. But ultimately my boss still sees me as too artistic for a traditional job, and has asked me up until the day that I left am I bored. I was working up until the moment I clocked out for the last time! Only people left in the building were me, my manager, and a VP. No I'm not bored, I'm burnt out and emotionally dysregulated.
> 
> ...


You seem new to how interviewing works. Employers check your references as part of the job process. If you are morally and ethically against them checking than don't apply to jobs that check them. Simple! Not every job asks for them. Also a job reference doesn't have to be your current employer but they can't be family. Is it that hard? Even if you think it's unfair doesn't mean this uncommon.


----------



## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

A few things...

1st I need to STRESS there is a big difference on what they can ask based on how you list someone. If you simply list your old workplaces HR number for example they can only answer the bare minimum like mentioned. So HR is less likely to have a direct bias (unless you worked direct with them). HOWEVER if you list a specific person from there on your contact/reference list they CAN ask more in depth questions.

2nd I need to stress if you have a bad premonition about this old boss you should reconsider using them as a reference/contact. Because they can ask in depth questions that are more specific. They can ask things like your strengths, and weaknesses for example. And if they ask that question your boss could say things to under sell you.

3rd I wanted to say that I related to you. In that I sorted fumbled about like I'd say 6-7 years ago now on listing a boss as a reference thinking of them as a mentor. I did find out that while they did not 'hate' on me. They had let a few bias' sneak through. I was able to find this out from a future boss who told me not to list that person again. The future boss made clear that the prior boss had not been like horrible bashing me, but did not 'sell' my full ability.

4th Something I have learned in more recent years like the last 5 years is that it can serve people well in the longterm if they do not plan on being on a place permanent to network between connected departments, as well as offer to help a department, peer, boss, or specialized positions with random fluff work. Like if you have extra time is all I mean. By offering to say I can do that extra data entry for you, if they say they are overwhelmed. Or asking if you can assist them with anything. Well it just means you have more people besides a direct boss to rely on in the future for your resume. I'm serious my flexibility at two specific jobs I had to cross work and dig in doing things that were 'not my job' benefitted me for networking with my resume. No I am not telling you to be weird and poke your nose where it does not belong, or a weird ass kisser that is just waiting around begging for projects. I am simply saying be open to that kinda thing where the opportunity is there so you can list specialists, peers, other department supervisors on your references in the future so your entire future does not rest on simply a boss, or a coworker review.

I do say all that having had it be very effective. I will be candid I sorta job bounced like the last 2 years way more than my norm. But because this is a thread about how to get the job more so, rather than about staying at a job longterm I consider myself qualified for a few reasons to weigh in. Mainly being I have been able to utilize the accumulated skills by cross networking to sell myself into a number of positions. Mind you most of the positions listed a degree, I still was able to sell myself more so on my skillset, and utilize my strong references. Also a good thing to always get when you are on a bosses good side is a letter of recommendation. Make sure they date, sign, on company logo paper etc. That way when you auto submit a boss as a referral or anyone else you have a statement from them prior to sorta say they are inconsistent in their own words, if they change their mind. Always good to have back up.

Anyways ya can take or leave my advice but I will list here the jobs I have been able to obtain in the last few years to demonstrate range, but also it is all about the resume, the networking/references, and spinning things. Clearly I am evidence of that  . Just in last 3 years.
Float Crisis Responder
Program Director
Activity Director
*Hr Generalist/Recruiter *(bolded to point out my info comes from inside knowledge too)
Scheduling Coordinator
Hotel Front Desk
Content Creator
In Home Services

Now just got hired for both of these:
Remote Case Manager
Semi Remote Marketing/Advertising Outreach/Recruitment Director

So if I can take my resume and spin it with my contacts, skills/knowledge having had that many jobs within a short time period YOU can definitely do the same.

It does not hurt at all for you to even still go to that boss in question and ask if you could get a letter of recommendation. I think that could expedite this process of wondering. If they say no you have no more wondering. If you however get the letter then well she looks stupid to have a recently dated document and to contradict that.

Don't ask me to tell ya how to have the patience to want to stay somewhere long clearly . But how to get the job I am confident on selling to ya what it takes.


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

CountZero said:


> Last time I had to hunt for a job, I would get contacted by recruiters who would sell some sweet sounding job, and then just ghost me. It had me fairly paranoid for a while that I had been blackballed by the NSA, CIA and every business with more than 5 employees LOL. Apparently this is a fairly common experience, so I wouldn't dwell on it too much.


 What’s commonplace, getting ghosted or getting blackballed?




thedazzlingdexter said:


> You seem new to how interviewing works. Employers check your references as part of the job process. If you are morally and ethically against them checking than don't apply to jobs that check them. Simple! Not every job asks for them. Also a job reference doesn't have to be your current employer but they can't be family. Is it that hard? Even if you think it's unfair doesn't mean this uncommon.


You miss part of my meaning. I’m used to providing references. I’m not used to them being contacted before an initial interview to create bias. Also, with some job apps designed to force you to disclose them at the beginning, you can’t control how they’ll be used. I obviously don’t want to burden my references by having them constantly called up for every little job before I’ve even gotten the chance to talk with the company to see if we both like each other. Companies should only reach out after they establish they want to hire you. But they try to save themselves time by essentially wasting yours.


----------



## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

OrchidSugar said:


> What’s commonplace, getting ghosted or getting blackballed?


Ghosting is extremely commonplace. Most recruiters are only interested in you if they can make a quick buck on you, and it seems relatively few HR departments are inclined to do applicants the favor of knowing they didn't get the job.


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

0.M.I.A.0 said:


> A few things...
> 
> 1st I need to STRESS there is a big difference on what they can ask based on how you list someone. If you simply list your old workplaces HR number for example they can only answer the bare minimum like mentioned. So HR is less likely to have a direct bias (unless you worked direct with them). HOWEVER if you list a specific person from there on your contact/reference list they CAN ask more in depth questions.
> 
> ...


I think you make great advice, which I wish I had handled better to begin with. The environment was unhealthy for me, which was part of the reason I left. And I saw how badly they talked about previous people who had worked there and managed to quit, even with proper notice.

So some of my own hypocrisy is exposed. That the very person who’s reference I need is the very person I do not wish to speak with. Ugh I just wanted to extricate myself from this place. I had some well meaning and hard working colleagues there that would also vouch for me. But they kind of fuel the rumor mill innocently.


----------



## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

OrchidSugar said:


> That's really good advice. Not sure I know anyone who could maintain the level of acting required to ask about pretend corporate job skills. I need to think about that!


You can pay a professional to do it if you're worried about someone giving you a bad reference, or an employer bad-mouthing you. In the past, I've hired a private investigator (posing as a prospective employer) to call an old workplace. As it turned out, my fears were unfounded. Be warned though, this is typically expensive.


----------



## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

CountZero said:


> You can pay a professional to do it if you're worried about someone giving you a bad reference, or an employer bad-mouthing you. In the past, I've hired a private investigator (posing as a prospective employer) to call an old workplace. As it turned out, my fears were unfounded. Be warned though, this is typically expensive.


Damn son, that's some boss Te shit right there!


----------



## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Firstly, I hope you recover from the burnout. My last job, I was in a similar position, I took on to much and I burned out. This ultimately led to me leaving. It took a couple of interviews before I was offered my current job.

In regards to the "Over qualified", firstly employers will be worried that you will get bored and leave. I have been involved in the hiring process before (I was team lead of a bunch of Infrastructure Engineers in my last job) and someone being overqualified is a red flag. Also, some employers will get worried that you will go after their position. They don't want to hire a threat to their role. I had an interview years ago, the official feedback was I was overqualified. A friend who worked at the (small) company told me that the hiring manager was worried I would go after her position as I was more than qualified/experienced for it.

I am not sure what the work reference laws are the USA however, so I cannot really comment.

All I will say, is stick in there and keep at it. You can do it.


----------



## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

OrchidSugar said:


> I think you make great advice, which I wish I had handled better to begin with. The environment was unhealthy for me, which was part of the reason I left. And I saw how badly they talked about previous people who had worked there and managed to quit, even with proper notice.
> 
> So some of my own hypocrisy is exposed. That the very person who’s reference I need is the very person I do not wish to speak with. Ugh I just wanted to extricate myself from this place. I had some well meaning and hard working colleagues there that would also vouch for me. But they kind of fuel the rumor mill innocently.


I assure ya I get it. I really did relate to alotta your post, that was why I wanted to make sure to tell ya in can and will get better. Does not help ya this exact second. I just know that you will end up ok. Even if it possibly takes some time. I had some really discouraging experiences at different points specifically after I had been in a similar position to what you are describing. If you would like any feedback feel free to message. If not I respect that and understand. Like I said I am not selling myself on finding my dream job and keeping it longterm. But if you have any questions for tips etc I could be able to help with hiring process suggestions. 

Looking for jobs is just super defeating experience I think in general. It is not fun. Especially when you feel like you do in that scenario. I hope things turn around for you.


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> Firstly, I hope you recover from the burnout. My last job, I was in a similar position, I took on to much and I burned out. This ultimately led to me leaving. It took a couple of interviews before I was offered my current job.
> 
> In regards to the "Over qualified", firstly employers will be worried that you will get bored and leave. I have been involved in the hiring process before (I was team lead of a bunch of Infrastructure Engineers in my last job) and someone being overqualified is a red flag. Also, some employers will get worried that you will go after their position. They don't want to hire a threat to their role. I had an interview years ago, the official feedback was I was overqualified. A friend who worked at the (small) company told me that the hiring manager was worried I would go after her position as I was more than qualified/experienced for it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement. Burnout makes me feel very stupid bc to some degree I must have behaved in a way that was too permissive.

For the overqualified bit, hearing it from an employer kind of makes me want to go after higher positions. But if they were improperly influenced then their assessment is skewed. Tbh I’m not that ambitious, so idk what people are seeing. I usually leave jobs due to burnout or not enough pay to survive. I accidentally developed a kind of....diverse resume like @0.M.I.A.0 describes.


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

0.M.I.A.0 said:


> I assure ya I get it. I really did relate to alotta your post, that was why I wanted to make sure to tell ya in can and will get better. Does not help ya this exact second. I just know that you will end up ok. Even if it possibly takes some time. I had some really discouraging experiences at different points specifically after I had been in a similar position to what you are describing. If you would like any feedback feel free to message. If not I respect that and understand. Like I said I am not selling myself on finding my dream job and keeping it longterm. But if you have any questions for tips etc I could be able to help with hiring process suggestions.
> 
> Looking for jobs is just super defeating experience I think in general. It is not fun. Especially when you feel like you do in that scenario. I hope things turn around for you.


I really appreciate it, and will probably try to take you up on that offer soon. I’m kinda hanging in the balance now.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

OrchidSugar said:


> What’s commonplace, getting ghosted or getting blackballed?
> 
> 
> 
> You miss part of my meaning. I’m used to providing references. I’m not used to them being contacted before an initial interview to create bias. Also, with some job apps designed to force you to disclose them at the beginning, you can’t control how they’ll be used. I obviously don’t want to burden my references by having them constantly called up for every little job before I’ve even gotten the chance to talk with the company to see if we both like each other. Companies should only reach out after they establish they want to hire you. But they try to save themselves time by essentially wasting yours.


Than you do not understand how interviewing works. This is a common practice so if you don't like it interview with company's that don't ask for them. Simple fix


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

thedazzlingdexter said:


> *You seem new to how interviewing works.* Employers check your references as part of the job process. If you are morally and ethically against them checking than don't apply to jobs that check them. *Simple!* Not every job asks for them. Also a job reference doesn't have to be your current employer but they can't be family. *Is it that hard?* *Even if you think it's unfair doesn't mean this uncommon. * It's a very common practice.





thedazzlingdexter said:


> *Than you do not understand how interviewing works. *This is a common practice so if you don't like it interview with company's that don't ask for them. *Simple fix*


Dex I appreciate your insights, but I do not appreciate your snark. Please dial it back. I am not one of your little subs and I don't appreciate being spoken to as if I were. Just in case you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I will highlight it above. 

It makes it very difficult for me to hear the value in your advice when you speak this way.


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

OrchidSugar said:


> Dex I appreciate your insights, but I do not appreciate your snark. Please dial it back. I am not one of your little subs and I don't appreciate being spoken to as if I were. Just in case you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I will highlight it above.
> 
> It makes it very difficult for me to hear the value in your advice when you speak this way.


Why would you bring submissive and Doms into this? I wouldn't want you as one. You are putting a weird spin on this. 

Anyways, this is a common practice. You cannot get upset and have a meltdown over it. While I agree that a lot of interviewing processes are stupid and most hiring practices are horribly inefficient in every way, shape or form, you kind of have to deal with it. 

You can escape this if you start your own business or find a way of making money without getting a job. I personally am all for hustling and sales. If you can wing it, good for you but even when you are starting a business most people have a part time job supporting their project until their projects become big. So you are going to be have to deal with BS until you get out of the system, but until than you are going to have to accept this is how the world is and whining about it IN AN INTERVIEW is probably not making the employer want to hire you.


----------



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

thedazzlingdexter said:


> Why would you bring submissive and Doms into this? I wouldn't want you as one. You are putting a weird spin on this.


Fine. My request still stands. If you notice the responses of others they either lead with empathy and offer advice or just plain offer advice. That was my point. There is no need to add extra snark, that’s just how gratuitous it is.



thedazzlingdexter said:


> Anyways, this is a common practice. You cannot get upset and have a meltdown over it. While I agree that a lot of interviewing processes are stupid and most hiring practices are horribly inefficient in every way, shape or form, you kind of have to deal with it.


I have not reached meltdown mode. This is me in trying to learn mode. Again, if I come to a forum asking for advice, there’s no need to remind me of my ignorance or naïveté. Gratuitous like I said. 



thedazzlingdexter said:


> You can escape this if you start your own business or find a way of making money without getting a job. I personally am all for hustling and sales. If you can wing it, good for you but even when you are starting a business most people have a part time job supporting their project until their projects become big. So you are going to be have to deal with BS until you get out of the system, but until than you are going to have to accept this is how the world is and whining about it IN AN INTERVIEW is probably not making the employer want to hire you.


Fine. I did not whine in an interview. This is something I thought about and asked about weeks later.

All in all I ask that you try to be a bit more respectful in your tone. I try to do the same when offering advice to you. I really do not think this is too much to ask. Are you willing?


----------



## thedazzlingdexter (12 mo ago)

OrchidSugar said:


> Fine. My request still stands. If you notice the responses of others they either lead with empathy and offer advice or just plain offer advice. That was my point. There is no need to add extra snark, that’s just how gratuitous it is.
> 
> 
> I have not reached meltdown mode. This is me in trying to learn mode. Again, if I come to a forum asking for advice, there’s no need to remind me of my ignorance or naïveté. Gratuitous like I said.
> ...


I am sorry you do not like the reality of how interviewing works. Life is hard, and systems are inefficient but acting like this is a brand-new concept doesn't change the established system. This is part of being an adult and if that hurts your feelings, you are going to have a hard time in life. Eventually you will become desensitized and realize the nonsense around you is something every single person around has noticed. The only difference is they choose to navigate around it or just bitterly accepted this stupidity is the standard. Are many of these standards stupid "Yes" does that mean they are not the standard "No". 

Being angry and upset about it makes sense but to feel entitled to not giving your references to a job you chose to apply to is nonsense. If you are applying to THEM you are on their terms. Its like getting angry that you have to give them an application. While acting as though this is not the basic standard. 

The Basics are 

Background Check 
References 
Resume 
Cover letter 

The MINUMUM 

Resume 
References

This will hopefully get you an Interview/Working interview 

Companys ask for references since they want people who are not your parents who can vouch that you are not complete trash. Most places I think asks for them but never double checks. Also you said the Interviewer was looking over something the whole time, they likely were reading off your resume. A lot of interviewers will grab your resume and look it over and ask around key points in your resume while they are interviewing you. You can argue this is lazy, but if that is the person between you and a JOB, you kind of have to play nice at least till you get the job, or can eventually get higher up in the company and than YOU make the rules.


----------

