# Did you know what sexual consent was when growing up? (TRIGGER WARNING)



## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm just curious to see if anyone else came from a family where you were never taught that it was wrong for men to pressure you into sex or that you had the right to say no.

Without typing a long explanation of my life, let's just say I didn't have the most "normal" upbringing. My father was pretty creepy, and my mom was submissive towards him. So, I grew up with the message that "*If someone wants you to have sex, you better do it." * I recall even my own mother saying things like* "Oh, all boys want sex"* or *"He's just trying to test you to see if you're a good girl or a bad girl" *when I would explain how I was being pressured to do things that I didn't want to do. I feel like my middle-aged mom doesn't know what consent or healthy sex is either.

The friends that I had at that time also would say that it's a typical guy thing to pressure. I didn't have too many friends back then anyway. I do regret asking dating advice from people that don't really know much about healthy relationships themselves.

At age 25, I picked up a book written by a male relationship expert. He said *"If a man is pressuring you for sex, take note that he doesn't respect you." * Then, I started to ask other men and they also said* "I would feel so awful if a girl had sex with me when she didn't want to!" 

*It's embarrassing for me to learn all of these things much later on in life, because these were things that my family never taught me at an early age. I regret having to give into things when I was younger, and am just wondering if any others were in the same situation?


Someone could ask me, *"How could you not know all of this stuff?"* Well, it's like asking Jaycee Dugard how she couldn't what the outside world was like. I didn't know, because I was a product of my sheltered parents' upbringing and it was discouraged to seek anything or anyone outside of their world. The friends that I had also shared similar views that my parents had about sex and women.


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## The King Of Dreams (Aug 18, 2010)

@loving2011 I never had to deal with this. But I just wanted to say apologize to you on behalf of of all men that do that. It's stupid, immoral and wrong and no one should ever have to go through that. I want to be with someone that wants to be with me. It should be consensual and mutual.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

The king-I'm now wondering if this topic might be too much. I've been told that it's desperate for women to initiate sex, but I do it bc I'm in control. At least I know I want it, instead of having to deal with pressure and then shutting down. I know I unconsciously chose these people, bc that's all what I knew. In my home, I certainly didn't own my body.


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## android654 (Jan 19, 2010)

I don't think children are meant to have that complex of an understanding on the intricacies of sex.


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

I didn't know about sexual consent either. In my heart of hearts (though I like being in control during sexual activity), I will still think it's normal for a guy to always have sex on his mind and always want to push the boundaries of what he can do with his girlfriend.

This doesn't mean I condone rape, whichever way it goes. No one should ever be _forced _to give up their body in any way. That's a value that many people theorize about but not many understand in real life.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

milti said:


> I didn't know about sexual consent either. In my heart of hearts (though I like being in control during sexual activity), I will still think it's normal for a guy to always have sex on his mind and always want to push the boundaries of what he can do with his girlfriend.
> 
> This doesn't mean I condone rape, whichever way it goes. No one should ever be _forced _to give up their body in any way. That's a value that many people theorize about but not many understand in real life.


I wonder if it's just a cultural thing, because the guys I dated also weren't talked to about women, sex and consent.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Don't worry, the topic isn't too much. I'm sorry you grew up in such a skewed environment, and if you are taking charge of your relationships now, in any way that makes you happy, good for you!!

To answer your question, the way I was brought up, I kind of figured out sex on my own, but the fact it had to be consensual seemed implied/obvious to me, but that's because I didn't have anyone telling me the way it was, I just figured out the way it was for myself.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

loving2011 said:


> I'm just curious to see if anyone else came from a family where you were never taught that it was wrong *for men to pressure you *into sex or that you had the right to say no.


Reeeeeally sexist premise, but I guess I'll let it slide?

Your OP doesn't really match your question. As a question, yes, I knew about sexual consent lol. I also knew about rape, and I knew that if the day ever came that I wanted to have sex and the other person said no, or vice-versa, that to go through with it was prape.

But I mean, I've always thought that "just say no" policy was extremely self-evident and obvious as all get out. Why in the fuck wouldn't it be? I don't just owe people sex, nor is it just expected that I just "should' give in to sex. That's silly. I'm a pretty selfless person, but I've never been so selfless to just think that if a person wants sex, I ought to just give it to them.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

Depending on the age, but I had a fairly strong sense of "Don't do things to people when they don't want you to do them to you." or "Don't do things that are clearly making other people unhappy." I'm not sure when I really became aware of sex (biologically I had 'the chat' quite early), probably when I was about 11 or so. By then I knew what rape was. Kind of weird if you don't.



loving2011 said:


> Then, I started to ask other men and they also said* "I would feel so awful if a girl had sex with me when she didn't want to!" *


 Yeah, it isn't good. Not at all. It's a really bad guilt trip you can never really apologise in the right way for.


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## MelissaC (May 23, 2012)

I know what you mean, OP. There's more to it than "Just say no!" Often it's much more subtle, and when you're a teenager it's much more complex (in my experience). 

I'd say most sex I had--be it with boyfriends or not--up until the age of, oh, 22 or so, felt pressured. That's not to say it was blatantly nonconsensual or "rapey" (and I'm very aware of the difference, having been blatantly date-raped at 18), but there was definitely little to no sense of having control over the situation on my side of it. 

And yes, there is a certain amount of sexism in this topic by nature but let's not make it entirely sexist. The OP asked about feeling pressured by guys specifically because she's a girl. We could have a conversation about guys who feel pressured into sex by women as well, if it would take away some knee-jerk reactions. 

Anyway. To answer your question, no I was never taught about the more subtle side of consent. I remember my mom giving me the "just say no!" talk but it was aimed more toward abstinence in general, and it was when I was really young. Like she just wanted to get "the talk" out of the way. In truth I was raised by a very patriarchal, and alcoholic, father and a faultless, very Christian, kind but passive mother so I received a more subtle but powerful message of my wants, needs, and desires being placed below that of a male's. "Just say no!...unless doing so will rock the boat and make a guy angry, in that case just do what he wants so he won't be mad at you and make your life difficult." Something like that.

I'm 25 and just now at a point where my sexuality isn't knotted up with cultural as well as familial bullshit like that.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Reeeeeally sexist premise, but I guess I'll let it slide?
> 
> Your OP doesn't really match your question. As a question, yes, I knew about sexual consent lol. I also knew about rape, and I knew that if the day ever came that I wanted to have sex and the other person said no, or vice-versa, that to go through with it was prape.
> 
> But I mean, I've always thought that "just say no" policy was extremely self-evident and obvious as all get out. Why in the fuck wouldn't it be? I don't just owe people sex, nor is it just expected that I just "should' give in to sex. That's silly. I'm a pretty selfless person, but I've never been so selfless to just think that if a person wants sex, I ought to just give it to them.



You obviously didn't grow up with a father that made you have sex with him when you were 12, and then told you that it wasn't rape. You need to pick up a book on surviving incest, and read how many adults were brainwashed into thinking that forced sex was normal.You say my OP doesn't match my question, but that's because you probably will never understand what it was like to be in our shoes. When I made this thread, I knew someone was going to walk in with a confused and condescending *"How could you not know?"* attitude. It's funny how the females in my thread get my point, but the males don't (except TheKingofDreams).

It's a pet peeve of mine when non-minority males assume that the whole world must be exactly like them. Go tell a child prostitute in a different country *"The just say no policy is extremely self-evident and obvious". *Go tell a woman in a different country entering a forced marriage *"You're an adult. Why can't you do whatever you want?" *You have to understand that not everyone has the same freedom and experiences as you.


There are a lot of angry things that I want to say to you, but I won't. When I first read your post, I was ready to swear the hell at you. You may defend yourself by saying *"I didn't know that you were molested by your dad"*, but my OP was giving hints. So, fuck you if you think that I was supposed to know what rape and sexual consent was at age 12. Seriously, fuck you. 




If you want to reply back to me, I'm not interested in replying back. In fact, your post makes me want to be done with this forum completely.

Thanks everyone else for the kind replies, but I think it's a waste of my energy to argue with people that don't get where I'm coming from. By making this thread, I was trying to connect with other women that were in my situation. Perhaps I would be better off at a rape survivor forum than have to worry about some guy thinking I'm being sexist.


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## downsowf (Sep 12, 2011)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Reeeeeally sexist premise, but I guess I'll let it slide?
> 
> Your OP doesn't really match your question. As a question, yes, I knew about sexual consent lol. I also knew about rape, and I knew that if the day ever came that I wanted to have sex and the other person said no, or vice-versa, that to go through with it was prape.
> 
> But I mean, I've always thought that "just say no" policy was extremely self-evident and obvious as all get out. Why in the fuck wouldn't it be? I don't just owe people sex, nor is it just expected that I just "should' give in to sex. That's silly. I'm a pretty selfless person, but I've never been so selfless to just think that if a person wants sex, I ought to just give it to them.


Honestly, you're an idiot. Next time think and have some sensitivity. I hope for your sake that you are just really stupid so you couldn't read into the OP's situation. If not the case then I'm pretty revolted by your response.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

I think pressuring anyone for sex is in poor taste (even heterosexual women :dry: ), but how are we defining pressure here?


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

@loving2011, I am so sorry your Father did that to you and that your Mother is so blind. I just want to say that you sound like a strong woman who will make it through this. Just the fact that you're questioning it and learning how YOU feel about it tells me you are the track to being free of this. It doesn't have to define you or affect you negatively if you decide to overcome it. I wish you the best.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

loving2011 said:


> Stuff


Mm, way to distract from my points and enter into a shouting match the likes of which does not match what I said, and is thus completely misguided and irrational. Kudos.

First off, your OP started with a sexist premise. That's not okay. If you were ever wronged by a person of a different ethnicity, I'd expect you to blame the person, and not their race/culture. Likewise, if you are ever wronged by a person, I'd expect you to blame the person, not their gender. But, no, you're obviously much too happy to abuse sexism for leverage, so whatever, no point in trying to get you to budge on your bias.

Your examples about asking prostitutes in other countries and girls in forced marriages are nothing more than logical fallacies. Not only because they have nothing to do with what we're talking about, but also because you weren't a child prostitute nor were you in a forced marriage.

You're your own thinking individual, so, yes, to assume that you just owe somebody something that you obviously do not. I can't make that point any more clear. Logical points are immune to feelings.

All in all, if your intention was to connect with other women, you should have picked a more accurate title, and not written an OP so slathered in sexist statements that you try to justify by embedding your tales of misfortune. You can't commit a horrendous act and then say that because abhorred things were done to you that gives you the right to be horrible back. Jus saiyan meign


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## knittigan (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm very sorry to hear about your experiences, @loving2011, and I'm even more sorry that someone came into your thread and trivialised them. I hope that you're alright and that this has not turned you off of PerC for good.

To answer your OP, I think that I had some conception of a "no means no" standard of consent as a child, but it wasn't until last year that I actually learned that the legal definition of consent in Canada is actually an affirmative one: "ONLY yes means yes." Obviously an affirmative consent standard is much stricter than a negative one: any sexual encounter that lacks ongoing, enthusiastic consent is not, by definition, consensual; it's sexual assault.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

@Shinji Mimura you are the most insensitive prick that I have ever met.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

knittigan said:


> I'm very sorry to hear about your experiences, @_loving2011_, and I'm even more sorry that someone came into your thread and trivialised them. I hope that you're alright and that this has not turned you off of PerC for good.
> 
> To answer your OP, I think that I had some conception of a "no means no" standard of consent as a child, but it wasn't until last year that I actually learned that the legal definition of consent in Canada is actually an affirmative one: "ONLY yes means yes." Obviously an affirmative consent standard is much stricter than a negative one: any sexual encounter that lacks ongoing, enthusiastic consent is not, by definition, consensual; it's sexual assault.


 This is the case in all common law countries, I _think. _


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## JaySH (Jul 29, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Reeeeeally sexist premise, but I guess I'll let it slide?
> 
> Your OP doesn't really match your question. As a question, yes, I knew about sexual consent lol. I also knew about rape, and I knew that if the day ever came that I wanted to have sex and the other person said no, or vice-versa, that to go through with it was prape.
> 
> But I mean, I've always thought that "just say no" policy was extremely self-evident and obvious as all get out. Why in the fuck wouldn't it be? I don't just owe people sex, nor is it just expected that I just "should' give in to sex. That's silly. I'm a pretty selfless person, but I've never been so selfless to just think that if a person wants sex, I ought to just give it to them.


Sexist? Your making this a politics thing? Really? Do you not have a sensitive bone in your body? 

Yes, she, as a female, asked if anyone was taught that it wasn't ok for men to pressure you....Guess what...I'm a man and will say it is far more common for men to pressure women than the other way around. But, that's irrelevant. 

She's looking for insight and someone who relates to her situation. She wasn't pressured by women. She hasn't been pressured by women (or, it hasnt impacted her the same, i assume) in the sense she's discussing and therefor she did not make it a gender neutral question. 

She's looking for people who relate to share in her struggles...not people to add to those struggles by making this into something it clearly wasn't. Why don't you go fuck with someone else. 

To the original OP, I honestly can say, as a child, that I had a man in my neighborhood who pressured kids into many things they/I didn't realize were leading down the road they were...he drugged us and...well, Nuff said. I never let anything like that happen again...and he went to jail after his son suffered the same and he actually murdered a young girl...an acquaintance of mine actually...anyway.. I was never taught just how to handle the situation I was in and...I'm not sure anything could have prepared me. 

Honestly I think somethings need to be learned on our own...the hard way...so to speak. But, never should anyone have to go through what you did to learn a lesson. I am so sorry for what you've been through.


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## Rachel Something (Jan 30, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Reeeeeally sexist premise, but I guess I'll let it slide?
> 
> Your OP doesn't really match your question. As a question, yes, I knew about sexual consent lol. I also knew about rape, and I knew that if the day ever came that I wanted to have sex and the other person said no, or vice-versa, that to go through with it was prape.
> 
> But I mean, I've always thought that "just say no" policy was extremely self-evident and obvious as all get out. Why in the fuck wouldn't it be? I don't just owe people sex, nor is it just expected that I just "should' give in to sex. That's silly. I'm a pretty selfless person, but I've never been so selfless to just think that if a person wants sex, I ought to just give it to them.


Wow, you really are obtuse, are you?


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## dottywine (Feb 7, 2011)

No I wasn't raised with this and I do not fault any man you were with who made you feel pressured and had sex with you (unless it was rape). Men usually pressure women to have sex. Because a man wants sex. Just like a kid tries to pressure their parents to getting them a new toy. A man will do his best to let a woman know what he wants and almost beg for it. Men with issues will ty to manipulate a woman for it and the worst will take what they want, no questions asked. The problem starts simply. The men who are wanting sex, being the kid asking for the toy. Begging, crying for it. Unfortunately, many women are not taught that you are ALLOWED to NOT want to have sex and let that man know that! These are things people just do not "KNOW"... I'm sorry and let us continue to educate.

I think we just need to accept people as they are and people need to accept their feelings for what they are. Its okay that a man desperately wants sex. Its ok that a woman does NOT want it from him. The world should move on. It sounds so simple in my head, but maybe its not.

In response to the non-response:
I feel like in any other situation, a non-response is considered "your fault". Right? You're getting a haircut, and you see them doing something you don't like but you don't respond. People would say its your fault. A stylist who asked "Is it okay?" as they went along is considered a higher standard, but its not required of the stylist. --- With sex, I think we need to approach it both ways. Teach people that a non-response doesn't always mean a positive one AND teach people to SPEAK UP about their feelings in the moment.


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## The King Of Dreams (Aug 18, 2010)

@milti I was talking to a CNA that is from India and she was telling me that women are highly respected in India and how they are much more different than the United States and western culture. Was she wrong? Does she have a naive perspective? I believed what she said but now this sounds different then what she told me. Give me the hard truth, because maybe she was looking at things through rose-colored glasses.


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

The King Of Dreams said:


> @_milti_ I was talking to a CNA that is from India and she was telling me that women are highly respected in India and how they are much more different than the United States and western culture. Was she wrong? Does she have a naive perspective? I believed what she said but now this sounds different then what she told me. Give me the hard truth, because maybe she was looking at things through rose-colored glasses.


Women _are _respected - revered. A lot of Hindu gods are women. Mothers, grandmothers, etc. are all treated with respect. People look after their parents when the parents are old. Men are responsible providers and respect for elders is ingrained in our society from a young age. We are taught to greet our elders by touching their feet and seeking their blessings, and if in Hindi TV serials they really glorify the mother-son bond and show the son as very attached to the mother and he will do anything for her, etc. If his wife complains against her mother in law, he will side with the mother, that sort of thing.

It is all hypocrisy because apart from the mother, most men seem not to care about treating women with respect. They think it is their god given right to dominate over women and they blame westernization for the modern ideas women have today (reg. leaving the house, working, wearing jeans, etc.)


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

dottywine said:


> In response to the non-response:
> I feel like in any other situation, a non-response is considered "your fault". Right? You're getting a haircut, and you see them doing something you don't like but you don't respond. People would say its your fault. A stylist who asked "Is it okay?" as they went along is considered a higher standard, but its not required of the stylist. --- With sex, I think we need to approach it both ways. Teach people that a non-response doesn't always mean a positive one AND teach people to SPEAK UP about their feelings in the moment.


That seems to work in theory, but what if you are raised to feel ashamed at making ANY reference to sex at all? You are raised in an environment where you're encouraged NOT to say anything about what happens to you or your body? You're forced to marry someone you don't know (not allowed to argue), told what to wear inside the home and out, told what time to be home, told to stop working... The list is endless. So what if you're raised in this culture where no one knows that they CAN say no? 

I agree with you. I just think changing cultural mindsets is very tough. And practically impossible.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

TheKingofDreams-I don't discuss this with other Indians, because I know there are people that will blame me or say that I'm lying. My parents view themselves as very moral people with better values than other white people.They will swear to you and up down that Indian society is the most perfect type of culture with no wrongdoings. They don't have any insight as to what they did was wrong. I was also commanded by mom and and Indian ex-boyfriend that my future Indian husband will hate me if he knows what has happened to me. 

Milti-I have no evidence to prove what happened years ago in court. I also know court cases where the perpetrator is let go scott free. Some of these court cases can take years. I don't think the mental energy is worth it.



Dottywine-Yes, it's perfectly normal for men AND women to have strong sexual urges. But, there's a huge difference between wanting sex and pressuring someone that doesn't want it.I post on sex forums that attract highly sexual people, even people that are into BDSM. Why is that most of those posters on those sex forums are well aware that it's wrong to pressure someone into sex? They don't use their high sex drives and "edgy" sexual preferences to justify pressuring someone into sex. 

As far as rape is concerned, there are some states that count verbal coercion and a lack of response as rape or at least some form of sexual abuse. The only grey area is having enough evidence to prove it in court. It's common for rape victims to shut down and freeze, just like people that are getting mugged or having a gun held to their head. Our bodies enter the "fight or flight" response to deal with crisis.

People say *"Oh, I would never do that"* or* "I would kick his ass if someone did that to me."* If you weren't in that situation, how would you know how you would react? People say all kinds of things to protect their egos.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

milti said:


> That seems to work in theory, but what if you are raised to feel ashamed at making ANY reference to sex at all? You are raised in an environment where you're encouraged NOT to say anything about what happens to you or your body? You're forced to marry someone you don't know (not allowed to argue), told what to wear inside the home and out, told what time to be home, told to stop working... The list is endless. So what if you're raised in this culture where no one knows that they CAN say no?
> 
> I agree with you. I just think changing cultural mindsets is very tough. And practically impossible.



Milti, this was what my life was like. Women weren't allowed to say no. If I ever tried to fight back or defend myself in my home, I was told that good Indian girls don't do these things and how it will be hard for an Indian man to marry me. Out of guilt and fear, I gave into my parents' rules to avoid any wrath.

When I shared my situation with other Indians, they also said "My parents do the same thing! It's just our culture." When I shared my home life with non-Indians, they would say "What the hell is wrong with you? Why can't you just say fuck off to your parents?" Um, because I wasn't raised that way? 

I've discussed the issue of "not knowing" in therapy, and every therapist I've seen says it's not my fault and that people are products of their environments. They also warned me to stay away from internet forums, because these are havens for perpetrators, victim-blamers and people that want to take out their anger on you. 

I also feel that I have the duty to educate others and correct misonceptions. I just can't imagine some of the posters on here becoming parents that will also be the type that would look the other way when something bad happens to their kid.


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

@_loving2011_ - The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : Rape and the crisis of Indian masculinity

I think Indians of this generation are more aware and awake to the wrong teachings of culture. It will take some time but mindsets are slowly changing. You're right that in the arranged marriage system you are advised not to reveal that you have a past or are not a virgin. I was talking to one of my friends about her engagement to some guy in America (an Indian working there) that her parents found for her. In college she was known to be a great flirt and lots of guys had huge crushes on her. She says she "had her fun, now it's time to settle down. Anyway my parents don't know about all the guys I've slept with. They would flip if they knew." She was compromised repeatedly by her uncle (mother's brother) at the age of 7-9 and she told me - "my mother still doesn't know. And no way in hell is this guy ever going to find out how crazy my life has been." I said, "He's going to be your husband! Won't you want to have full disclosure with him?" She says, "No dude, that's just asking for trouble. He thinks I am a virgin. I've thrown away all my exs' gifts." She had a hymen reconstructive surgery as well. Her parents are very traditional and her mother assumed she needed it because of all the physical activity from dance. 

I've visited her home. Her parents seem like nice people, but clueless as to the inner life of their own daughter. Makes me feel very sad.

My own situation is very different from yours or even what normal Indian girls often go through. That's because thankfully my parents (and extended family) are cool about the falling-in-love way of finding someone. My mother knows I'm not a virgin. They all know about my various boyfriends and crushes throughout the years, ever since I was 15.  My family makes mild fun of me and sometimes my mother worries about how she will be able to arrange a marriage for me. But all in all, I have it easier than most of my friends. There's no rush for me really, and all my parents want is for me to be happy with the person I end up with and not have any divorce.


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## dottywine (Feb 7, 2011)

Loving, this is why my only solution is to continue to advocate and distribute knowledge to everyone. You cannot help the culture you were raised in, but those of us who know better can spread a message far and wide. Are you familiar with vagina monologues? It is a world-wide effort to spread information to women. I'm very interested in people who take it outside of North America. There are a few chapters in india.

_"People say "Oh, I would never do that" or "I would kick his ass if someone did that to me." If you weren't in that situation, how would you know how you would react? People say all kinds of things to protect their egos."_

Yes, people cannot see outside of their own experiences. I've been in many situations where if someone had just told me that its okay to say no, things would have turned out differently. I suppose that until we have a culture where women KNOW they can say NO, unresponsiveness can definitely be seen as rape.


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## The King Of Dreams (Aug 18, 2010)

milti said:


> Women _are _respected - revered. A lot of Hindu gods are women. Mothers, grandmothers, etc. are all treated with respect. People look after their parents when the parents are old. Men are responsible providers and respect for elders is ingrained in our society from a young age. We are taught to greet our elders by touching their feet and seeking their blessings, and if in Hindi TV serials they really glorify the mother-son bond and show the son as very attached to the mother and he will do anything for her, etc. If his wife complains against her mother in law, he will side with the mother, that sort of thing.
> 
> It is all hypocrisy because apart from the mother, most men seem not to care about treating women with respect. They think it is their god given right to dominate over women and they blame westernization for the modern ideas women have today (reg. leaving the house, working, wearing jeans, etc.)


Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was confused. I'm sorry that women have to go through that in this world. It's sad. There's not much more I can say *hugs*


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## The King Of Dreams (Aug 18, 2010)

loving2011 said:


> Milti, this was what my life was like. Women weren't allowed to say no. If I ever tried to fight back or defend myself in my home, I was told that good Indian girls don't do these things and how it will be hard for an Indian man to marry me. Out of guilt and fear, I gave into my parents' rules to avoid any wrath.
> 
> When I shared my situation with other Indians, they also said "My parents do the same thing! It's just our culture." When I shared my home life with non-Indians, they would say "What the hell is wrong with you? Why can't you just say fuck off to your parents?" Um, because I wasn't raised that way?
> 
> ...


Wow, I get it now. People tell you "Why don't you tell them to stop" and it's easy for them to say because they weren't raised that way. So you were conditioned from infancy to follow that way and so to deviate from that is difficult because that's what your parents instilled in you. Wow, I'm sorry. I understand now.


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## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

> by @loving2011
> When I shared my situation with other Indians, they also said "My parents do the same thing! It's just our culture." When I shared my home life with non-Indians, they would say "What the hell is wrong with you? Why can't you just say fuck off to your parents?" Um, because I wasn't raised that way?


Indian culture has its +'s and -'s I think. We're not kicked out of the home at 16 or 18 or whatever. :kitteh: We're allowed to live at home with our parents for however long it takes us to start our own lives. All this comes with the knowledge however that you owe a lo to your parents and ought to thank them everyday for giving birth to you, and if you live under their roof, you do things their way. Saying fuck off to your parents is absolutely unthinkable and you'll be labelled a rebel and unstable and whatever else.


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## loving2011 (Nov 6, 2012)

Thekingofdreams-even when I did say no, it was met with pressure and emotional blackmail. I'm almost 30, and now my mom is finally realizing that I'm an adult with her own life. I know that my parents also came from families where the adult woman had to do as she's told, so the idea of me making my own decisions is understandably foreign to her.


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

Ningsta Kitty said:


> @_Shinji Mimura_
> 
> why are you being so sensitive?
> 
> ...


Lol, I've only ever been banned once dudesicle :O

See, that's why I'm being so sensitive: she posted something sexist *without knowing that she had said something sexist*. That's why I'm so upset; when you become so okay with sexism that you are *literally ignorant to it when it comes out of your mouth*. 

That's why I'm so upset. Like I said, I'm not about to allow people to just get away with casual, *unknowing* sexism. It's been brought to light, my job is done.

Furthermore, as I said in my first post, you are your own person, capable of your own thoughts and judgments. Why would any logical, thinking person just give somebody something they knew they didn't owe them? Hence, I said it was obvious, because it is obvious.

And let's try our hardest to stop with the personal attacks, hmm? I didn't bother prefacing what I said with my sensitive regards, because they'd only get disregarded for my criticisms anyways, so let's not jump onto the "you're insensitive" boat.


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## WickerDeer (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think this topic is too much at all, loving2011. I think it's important to be able to talk about important stuff--and I guess I think this topic is more important than what reality TV show was on last night, or who won the most recent sports game, or the newest fashion.

I didn't come from a family where there was a man like that. My mom and dad separated when I was three or so. But we did not have discussions about sex. I think once my mom told me to cross my legs. Another time, my grandma told me "be careful who you marry; some men seem nice at first, but then they turn out mean."

I remember when I lost my virginity to a date rape--I said "I don't want to have sex." And he said, "it's OK, we aren't going to." Then he did it.

Well, I remember that after that happened, my female best friend acted like it was my fault. I should have known that he was going to do it, because i should have known that men were "that way." 

For a long time I blamed myself, thinking that it really was my fault--if only I had been smarter or less trusting. I should have KNOWN.

But now i realize that men and women have the same capacity for ethical acts. I wouldn't have date-raped someone--nor would I pressure someone for sex. It's not OK, regardless of your sex. Especially with a child. Children can not be expected to be responsible for "fending off" male advances. 

And no--men are not like that. I think that society does project these negative images of men (whether from your mom, my best friend, or the media). And it sucks to have to work out those old ideas that all men are a certain way, but they really are detrimental for us women and also for most men. Some men do pressure for sex, but their gender isn't an excuse, and most men do not act this way.

Edit: but I think it's even harder to work through these kinds of beliefs when your father is the one who taught you, so I don't want to make it seem like it's no big deal. The father is one of the most important male role models, and it's sad that you were forced to grow up faster because of his behavior.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> Lol, I've only ever been banned once dudesicle :O
> 
> See, that's why I'm being so sensitive: she posted something sexist *without knowing that she had said something sexist*. That's why I'm so upset; when you become so okay with sexism that you are *literally ignorant to it when it comes out of your mouth*.
> 
> ...


Her FATHER (and Mother by allowing it) are the ones who put this way of thinking on her...adults, on a child. She is now an adult, undoing that damage. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand? I am left to assume you are completely trolling. I will not feed you from here on out. It's like trying to talk to a drunk person...Cannot. Get. Through.


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## Pete The Lich (May 16, 2011)

common lets have sex!

No?


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## Shinji Mimura (Aug 1, 2012)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Her FATHER (and Mother by allowing it) are the ones who put this way of thinking on her...adults, on a child.


And she had every ability to think, "That doesn't sound quite right." It's grossly offensive to presume that children are incapable of thinking for themselves, or that all of them are 100% impressionable to the whims of their parents.


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## William I am (May 20, 2011)

Hmmm. 

It's normal for someone to want sex, and sometimes to ask for it - not always verbally. I got the point where I would just ask "can we have sex?" with this one girl I was seeing because I didn't like beating around the bush. Sometimes we wouldn't both be in the mood simultaneously, and once or twice we compromised and had sex anyway - which included me making one or two statements of why it would be nice to be indulged. And then stopping if we talked normally like adults and she didn't want to - or if she genuinely didn't want to for any reason she thought was good enough. 
If she really didn't want to, we wouldn't, but sometimes I would ask if that's how she really felt, and that's not too much to ask.

This question is easy to answer "NEVER! No pressure and no asking is ever ok." but that overly simple rule excludes things that can normally happen. We can't read your minds, and we don't want to try something and then get turned down, so sometimes we ask. Asking and a brief, respectful conversation is healthy. 

Threats and lies and coercion are not healthy ever.

It's not normal (or not ok because it's not healthy) for someone to ask you over and over, or for someone to put pressure on you as in "you should have sex with me because you know you want it/I need it/your a __bad thing___/you love me/if you cared about me..../etc.".

If someone won't stop asking or tries to manipulate your feelings to make you consent, (to coerce you), then that's a bad sign, and generally it happens with people that men disrespect, or who they don't feel have earned their respect. I can't think of any time when it's a good thing or even an allowable thing to try to coerce anyone. 
You can find examples of attempted (or successful - yuck) coercion in movies all the time, especially older movies.

Best of Luck and I hope my answers were helpful.


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## Paradox1987 (Oct 9, 2010)

@Shinji Mimura

Whatever you choose to do in life, don't opt for a client facing role. If you have sense, you'll opt to never work in healthcare. That you may be responsible for someone's welfare is beginning to scare me slightly given that you really don't see how you should let this go, your point is not borne out and yet you're clinging to it like the dying man's proverbial straw. Give it a rest man.

@loving2011
I am sorry that you had to live through these experiences, and I do see how they'd give you a skewed outlook from the word go. My own experience of understanding consent went as follows: I knew that you could want and not want things. I was a very affectionate toddler, but it wasn't until around 7/8 that I learned what sex was. Initially, I had no idea how it'd work, but my parents gave the medical version of all things sex around the same age because I asked questions. That was when I realised that consent would play a role. 

I didn't really ever give it much thought until I was a teen, that was when I realised how important consent would be. After all, I don't want sex 24/7 myself, so why would a woman? Whilst ongoing consent made sense to me like a big meal, you wanted to eat it all at the start, but didn't want any more past a certain point. That, and my subsequent undergraduate studies in law got me interested in consent. So no, I wasn't born with the idea, but it developed over time. The only advice I can give is to seek out the support that is best/most effective for you, and also to pick up more and more info (like you're doing). 

Anyone that overrides consent with force or any wilful ignorance is poor form, and most people I know find the idea of having sex with someone that doesn't want it abhorrent and traumatising. That being said, there are obviously people that don't care about consent and either use force or prey on the vulnerable. 

Last thing I'd say is that, just like if a pedestrian on the pavement gets struck by a car it's not the pedestrian's fault. If someone overrides your consent and assaults/rapes you it's not your fault either. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


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## Rachel Something (Jan 30, 2012)

Shinji Mimura said:


> And she had every ability to think, "That doesn't sound quite right." It's grossly offensive to presume that children are incapable of thinking for themselves, or that all of them are 100% impressionable to the whims of their parents.


You have no point. You haven't even explained why you thought she was being sexist. And she didn't even make the presumptions that you claim she is making. Why don't you just leave it alone?


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