# The origin of life?



## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

Did we come from Apes? From gods? From aliens?


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## KyojiK (Apr 14, 2010)

I chose Other. We all came from Star Stuff.


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## Lucretius (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, the title asks about the origin of life, but the poll seems to ask about the origin of humanity...
Which one are you asking?


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

Depends on your timescale.


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## KyojiK (Apr 14, 2010)

Heh, I was confused about this as well. Hence my answer.


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## Zic (Dec 30, 2009)

Evolution, of course.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Humans evolved, as did all living creatures.


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## Vaka (Feb 26, 2010)

I was the one who picked aliens because that's my favorite theory!


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

If life had an origin it would have to be nothingness.


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## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> If life had an origin it would have to be nothingness.


There is a lot of nothing all around us, so I suppose that makes sense :O


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Humans evolved, as did all living creatures.


...and are still evolving but that hardly says anything about the origin. Evolution is a constant process which must include some forms of life throughout its way. If we think this process will continue eternally then evolution and thus also life has no origin.


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> ...and are still evolving but that hardly says anything about the origin. Evolution is a constant process which must include some forms of life throughout its way. If we think this process will continue eternally then evolution and thus also life has no origin.


*Evolution:* any process of formation or growth
*Evolution:* _Biology_ . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> *Evolution:* any process of formation or growth
> *Evolution:* _Biology_ . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.


Yes, a population of organisms (life).


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> Yes, a population of organisms (life).


agreed

Just wondering what you mean by this



> If we think this process will continue eternally then evolution and thus also life has no origin.


I think you are getting forwards and backwards mixed up.


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> Just wondering what you mean by this
> 
> 
> Me said:
> ...


If evolution changes populations' gene pools from generation to generation, the process has no ending and thus it cannot have a beginning. And if this process involves life, also life must have no beginning and no end.


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## Nearsification (Jan 3, 2010)

This poll makes little sense sense.
Like azreal said.

But disregarding evolution the origin of our species aliens seems like an logical answer.


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## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

Azrael said:


> Well, the title asks about the origin of life, but the poll seems to ask about the origin of humanity...
> Which one are you asking?


Answer the poll.


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## HannibalLecter (Apr 18, 2010)

Anti-Helena said:


> I was the one who picked aliens because that's my favorite theory!


My favorite, too.


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## Lucretius (Sep 10, 2009)

HannibalLecter said:


> Answer the poll.


Alright, well _humanity _quite clearly came from evolution...


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> If evolution changes populations' gene pools from generation to generation, the process has no ending and thus it cannot have a beginning. And if this process involves life, also life must have no beginning and no end.


this doesn't make sense.

as an analogy, if I push a ball out in space and it just keeps floating on forever does that mean that I didn't push it?


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> this doesn't make sense.
> 
> as an analogy, if I push a ball out in space and it just keeps floating on forever does that mean that I didn't push it?


Honestly I had some kind of concept on this subject but now I'm "getting forwards and backwards mixed up" (not for the first time :laughing. Need some time to think.

As to your analogy: you just change the ball's course. It is the laws of physics that keep the ball floating.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Origin of Humanity: biological evolution
Origin of Life: probably chemical evolution


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## Heathrow (Apr 23, 2010)

It's possible that terrestrial life is developed from alien microbes deposited on Earth early in its lifetime, it's also possible that life simply developed on Earth through some process of chemical chance. In both those cases life still evolved from crude chemical reactions it's just a matter of where it first started.

Personally, I think it's more likely that Life developed on Earth, if you think about the shear amount of biology that would need to be imported for alien life to take a foothold on our planet you start to think that every single asteroid or comet impact on the Earth must have brought a substantial number of microbes with it. On the other hand, if some attribute of generic asteroids colliding with Earth caused self replicating molecules to form over the whole of the planet you can easily see how there would have been enough sheer biomass for some good adaptations to take hold and for life to get its foot in.

As to whether this thread is discussing the origins of humanity or the origins of life itself it really doesn't matter. Either life evolved from simple chemical reactions to complex microbes or they didn't, either those microbes evolved into complex multicellular organisms (like us humans) or they didn't, either those chemical processes that created life happened on Earth or they happened elsewhere. There really only need to be two poll options. "Evolution" and "Other" all the rest are just variations on those two themes.


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## DarklyValentine (Mar 4, 2010)

tooters in with booze
wicked is quite drunk that fact can be verified by another

anyhoos

giggles your frothing of the gob mrs hanjibel


to stay on course we await your wise statement, owly wise....like thats ever gonna happen


let me change me thingie to bloootered


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

signorlaine said:


> As to your analogy: you just change the ball's course. It is the laws of physics that keep the ball floating.


It's also the laws of physics that allow you to change the course of the ball. It's also the laws of physics which would state what the ball would be doing had you not pushed it, and what the ball does when you do push it.

So if pushing the ball produces a sought result, then it is pushing the ball which we would need to look at (because physics is always implied, regardless)


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> Honestly I had some kind of concept on this subject but now I'm "getting forwards and backwards mixed up" (not for the first time :laughing. Need some time to think.
> 
> As to your analogy: you just change the ball's course. It is the laws of physics that keep the ball floating.


oh goodness. let's break everything down here

This is what you stated

"If evolution changes populations' gene pools from generation to generation, the process has no ending and thus it cannot have a beginning. And if this process involves life, also life must have no beginning and no end.?

You state that the process is evolution.
If the process has no ending.
It cannot have a beginning.

*Process* 1. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result:

If I push a ball in space it moves from one point to another point.
This is in effect a process, the ball moving from one point to another point.
The process of the ball moving has no ending because space is infinite,
Is it therefore true that I did not begin the process by pushing it?


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

It depends on where you place bounds on what constitutes the process which you are considering. You placed it at the point where you pushed the ball, which is a clear point.

I can kind of understand what he is trying to say but it is not a strong or clear point... something which is endless can have a beginning, it depends on what is endless and if it is bounded on one end or not. e.g. positive integers are endless but they have a beginning, while the set of all integers is endless in both directions because that includes both positive and negative - it is not bounded on either end so no point is the beginning, or end, and also no point is the middle.

So it depends.


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## Midnight Runner (Feb 14, 2010)

We didn't come from apes. Apes and humans simply have a common ancestor in the (relatively) recent past.


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> Process 1. A series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result:
> 
> If I push a ball in space it moves from one point to another point.
> This is in effect a process, the ball moving from one point to another point.
> ...





sprinkles said:


> It depends on where you place bounds on what constitutes the process which you are considering. You placed it at the point where you pushed the ball, which is a clear point.
> 
> I can kind of understand what he is trying to say but it is not a strong or clear point... something which is endless can have a beginning, it depends on what is endless and if it is bounded on one end or not. e.g. positive integers are endless but they have a beginning, while the set of all integers is endless in both directions because that includes both positive and negative - it is not bounded on either end so no point is the beginning, or end, and also no point is the middle.
> 
> So it depends.


I don't see the ball but the movement and regardless of your pushing and stopping the ball the movement remains as a force.

Imagine a last individual of endangered species that suddenly dies. It's evolution stops completely but however evolution as a force still has an effect on other species.

Probably nothing strong or clear but anyway something of my stream of consciousness put on verbal form.


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

Evolution by natural selection isn't a force which affects things.
It's a description of a process by which speciation occurs. 

*Still does not address your idea that if a process goes on forever it therefore never had a beginning.*

{---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------∞

{ = beginning
∞ = infinite


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> Evolution by natural selection isn't a force which affects things.
> It's a description of a process by which speciation occurs.


What is the process itself then?


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> What is the process itself then?


Hmmm, biology isn't my forte. But I'll try.
The process starts with a state of multiple organisms within a species with genetic variability. It then applies environmental pressures on these species for survival. Pressures such as limited resources (food, water, habitat) and environmental variables (natural disasters and predators). Those with genetics that favour survival in such an environment are more likely to pass on their genes to their offspring. Speciation occurs when a new species is formed through evolutionary process.

*You still have not addressed your idea that if a process goes on forever it therefore never had a beginning.*


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> The process starts with a state of multiple organisms within a species with genetic variability. It then applies environmental pressures on these species for survival. Pressures such as limited resources (food, water, habitat) and environmental variables (natural disasters and predators). Those with genetics that favour survival in such an environment are more likely to pass on their genes to their offspring. Speciation occurs when a new species is formed through evolutionary process.


Now that you have described what happens in this process would you mind stating what the process actually is? A force that affects things?



> Evolution by natural selection isn't a force which affects things.
> It's a description of a process by which speciation occurs.


Evolution = a description of a process. Process = ?



Coffee Grinder said:


> *You still have not addressed your idea that if a process goes on forever it therefore never had a beginning.*


And will not be able to do so before we (or perhaps just I) have a clear understanding on this process.

– –

However I do understand your point



> {---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------∞
> 
> { = beginning
> ∞ = infinite


and agree on it in some scientific contexts (maths etc.) but I'm lost in metaphysics.


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> Now that you have described what happens in this process would you mind stating what the process actually is? A force that affects things?


The process is what happens in the process.
If I walk, the process of walking is the movement of my legs to acquire movement.
As I said, evolution isn't a "force".




> Evolution = a description of a process. Process = ?


The process starts with a state of multiple organisms within a species with genetic variability. It then applies environmental pressures on these species for survival. Pressures such as limited resources (food, water, habitat) and environmental variables (natural disasters and predators). Those with genetics that favour survival in such an environment are more likely to pass on their genes to their offspring. Speciation occurs when a new species is formed through evolutionary process.



> And will not be able to do so before we (or perhaps just I) have a clear understanding on this process.


A process is a series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result

Evolution involves changes in the gene pool and actions of the various organisms within that species.



> and agree on it in some scientific contexts (maths etc.) but I'm lost in metaphysics.


I would like to know what metaphysics justifies your idea that if a process goes on forever it therefore never had a beginning.


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> 1. A process is a series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result.


Back to the analogy about the ball being pushed in space. You define the process as being movement (x-----------------------------∞) you started. But are not the push and it's causes also actions that bring about a result (movement)? The ball began it's movement on your push but the process has it's roots in the distant past. It would not have moved if there was no potential for it. Can you separate the causes of the movement from the actual movement and say they do not belong to the same process?

Causality – does it have a beginning?


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## Lucem (Dec 2, 2009)

signorlaine said:


> Back to the analogy about the ball being pushed in space. You define the process as being movement (x-----------------------------∞) you started. But are not the push and it's causes also actions that bring about a result (movement)? The ball began it's movement on your push but the process has it's roots in the distant past. It would not have moved if there was no potential for it. Can you separate the causes of the movement from the actual movement and say they do not belong to the same process?
> 
> Causality – does it have a beginning?


We can cut and slice the causal chain however we want. I can understand how you can think that everything is causally linked to the past but I think it's safe to be able to split up this chain into the actor and the subject. I am the actor in this division and the subject is the ball, I exert an action on the subject. This is merely looking at the same set of states in a different manner.

As I said, a process is a series of actions, changes or functions. Note the word "series", a process is the name given to a series of actions, changes or functions. Whether the process has a causal relationship in the past is apart from the point. 

As a process, evolution by natural selection has explanatorial boundaries, it starts at the first replicating species. The process by which the first replicating species came about is called abiogenesis. They are separated because there are distinct differences in the process that occurs.


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## signorlaine (May 14, 2010)

Coffee Grinder said:


> We can cut and slice the causal chain however we want. I can understand how you can think that everything is causally linked to the past but I think it's safe to be able to split up this chain into the actor and the subject. I am the actor in this division and the subject is the ball, I exert an action on the subject. This is merely looking at the same set of states in a different manner.
> 
> As I said, a process is a series of actions, changes or functions. Note the word "series", a process is the name given to a series of actions, changes or functions. Whether the process has a causal relationship in the past is apart from the point.
> 
> As a process, evolution by natural selection has explanatorial boundaries, it starts at the first replicating species. The process by which the first replicating species came about is called abiogenesis. They are separated because there are distinct differences in the process that occurs.


Fair enough.


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