# thought-provoking piece on Fi vs Ti, Ni, and Fe



## pneumoceptor (Aug 25, 2011)

I'd love to start a discussion on the comparisons between Fi and Ti, Ni, and Fe in this article: Introverted Feeling (Fi) vs. Ti, Ni, & Fe | Personality Junkie.

(I really like this blog in general, and I'd recommend perusing it. )

I resonated with the following points in particular:

1. "As N dominants, INFJs do not generally rely on a predefined inner structure like IPs. Instead, they tend to approach each situation with fresh eyes, using their Se to subconsciously gather the situational puzzle pieces and their Introverted Intuition (Ni) to assemble them."

2. "Ni entails a sort of vague gut feeling, like having hunch about something... Fi judgments are not felt in any one bodily region. If they involve anger they may be felt in a different area than those that involve love. Or, IFPs may simply “know” their judgment without feeling much as far as inner sensations or emotions."

3. "IFP children can find it extremely difficult, confusing, and damaging if raised by an FJ parent who insists they put on a “happy face.”" (This is something I will actively avoid... how damaging.) 

4. "Fe types can struggle with IFPs’ lack of warmth and might see them as overly negative. Fe types are looking for physical signs of emotional expressiveness, which are largely absent when IFPs are expressing themselves through their Te. This can make Fe-Fi communication uncomfortable, with the IFP questioning the Fe type’s sincerity and the Fe type questioning if the IFP is feeling anything at all."

Also, the gray vs black blobs and hard vs. softer blocks description of Fi was useful to me. Did it seem to ring true for you Fi users?


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

Because my Fi comes 3rd in my conscious awareness there is a constant danger that I store feelings with out consciously checking their validity. also I think it important for me to be conscious of the separate responses - that is to say: there is my personal threatened survival response, my self esteem/ego response and my universal spiritual/ethical/moral response. It would be easy for the responses to become jumbled if I do not consciously acknowledge them at the time they occur (and i am currently concentrating on the quick flashes that can go unnoticed and then set).

Just my initial thoughts on the subject.


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## pneumoceptor (Aug 25, 2011)

Is it that you don't notice you're storing feelings in the first place, or that you don't want to/find it difficult to evaluate them? How does this manifest itself... a strong emotional response that seemingly came out of nowhere?


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

> Is it that you don't notice you're storing feelings in the first place,


Yes and No: some reactions are subliminal (could even be body language, tone of voice etc) - or triggers of childhood hurts. No, in the sense that I am aware of them but my Ni and Te are auto evaluating the situation and that process takes priority. So although I am conscious of the feeling it takes a back seat.


> or that you don't want to/find it difficult to evaluate them?


Both of these are a factor by the mere fact I am human:1. we tend to avoid pain 2. not so much find it difficult to evaluate but that they get incorrectly evaluated if not fully realised consciously - because they merely trigger a tape knee jerk category.


> How does this manifest itself... a strong emotional response that seemingly came out of nowhere?


 If the feeling acts as a trigger for unconscious past hurts that have not been resolved then yes it will rsult in a strong emotional response ... which people may or may not witness.


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## bobdaduck (Apr 24, 2010)

On the same site, is a description of Ni: Understanding Introverted Intuition (Ni) in INFJs & INTJs | Personality Junkie

The Ni description basically says "Ni is magic and you'll never understand it lol", so I'm inclined to dismiss the site almost entirely. Its a pet peeve of mine, Ni descriptions that are wrong.


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## Paradigm (Feb 16, 2010)

pneumoceptor said:


> 3. "IFP children can find it extremely difficult, confusing, and damaging if raised by an FJ parent who insists they put on a “happy face.”" (This is something I will actively avoid... how damaging.)


For me, it's simply annoying and disrespectful, not "damaging." My mother used to (actually, still does) try to cheer me up when I was terse, and when that didn't work she said "SMILE!" as if that would solve everything. I just stare(d) at her blankly.

Actually, most Fe-users I've spent a good amount of time around do this, if we have a close enough relationship. In one form or another, at least. Tert-Fe seems go sulkily go, "Man, you're are such a downer tonight / you're a barrel of laughs today."



> 4. "Fe types can struggle with IFPs’ lack of warmth and might see them as overly negative. Fe types are looking for physical signs of emotional expressiveness, which are largely absent when IFPs are expressing themselves through their Te. *This can make Fe-Fi communication uncomfortable, with the IFP questioning the Fe type’s sincerity and the Fe type questioning if the IFP is feeling anything at all.*"


Tbh, I feel overly negative and not warm enough even to myself. But that's for various reasons, some of which involve communicating to Fe itself 

The bolded occurs _so often_ when I'm trying to solve problems with an Fe-user. If we're just hanging out, then it doesn't matter so much... But once we even try to hit problem-solving mode, it's frustrating.

I agreed a lot with the following:


> Since IFPs feel that Fe tact is not helpful if it skirts or obscures the truth, they are disposed to “stating it like it is” (Te), expressing themselves through action (often passive-aggressive action; see this post), or not saying anything at all.


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bobdaduck said:


> Its a pet peeve of mine, Ni descriptions that are wrong.


Yeah, but 90% of Ni descriptions are wrong. Apparently it's a "sage" function, "psychic" and "magical," "they just know."

No. -_-

The problem is trying to relay how Ni works in concepts rather than actual ideas that can be verbalized. Because how does that even sound plausible? Maybe it's just me, but I felt _so odd_ while growing up, knowing that I knew things but unable to verbalize what I knew. And I was ahead of my classmates in English, so _that_ wasn't the problem...

Anyway, too many people have a misunderstanding of functions*, so to me it feels futile to actually try and change minds  Fi and Ni just seems like the flavor of the month so far.

*To be fair, I'm one of them; I usually avoid posting Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te because I'm afraid of sounding too biased.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

@Paradigm


> and when that didn't work she said "SMILE!" as if that would solve everything


lol, reminds me: as a kid I was on a bus deep in thought - a nice guy across the seat said `... cheer up it may never happen` - instead of me smiling in acknowledgment I looked at him (thinking what`s it got to do with him) and said `how do you know it hasn`t already?` - been like that ever since oopsa.


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## Philo (Dec 15, 2011)

Bobdaduck,

Regarding dismissing Ni as magical, the page you mention does include:

Despite its magical appearance, *Ni can be understood on a rational basis*. What seems to be occurring is that many INJs have a *highly sensitive inferior function, Extraverted Sensation (Se), *which gathers copious amounts of sensory information from the outside world, including subtleties that other personality types tend to miss. Their Ni then subconsciously processes this data in order to make sense of it, like assembling pieces of a puzzle. Once finished, Ni generates an impression that seems to come out of “nowhere.” But the fact is that the intuition did not come out of nowhere, but from a *synthesis of sensory data gathered from the immediate environment combined with information from the INJ’s own psyche*.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

> Despite its magical appearance, Ni can be understood on a rational basis. What seems to be occurring is that many INJs have a highly sensitive inferior function, Extraverted Sensation (Se), which gathers copious amounts of sensory information from the outside world, including subtleties that other personality types tend to miss. Their Ni then subconsciously processes this data in order to make sense of it, like assembling pieces of a puzzle. Once finished, Ni generates an impression that seems to come out of “nowhere.” But the fact is that the intuition did not come out of nowhere, but from a synthesis of sensory data gathered from the immediate environment combined with information from the INJ’s own psyche.


 ^ This expresses part of what I do perfectly.

This does too:
INJs often feel more like recipients than they do creators of their ingenious ideas.


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## bobdaduck (Apr 24, 2010)

Philo said:


> Bobdaduck,
> 
> Regarding dismissing Ni as magical, the page you mention does include:
> 
> Despite its magical appearance, *Ni can be understood on a rational basis*. What seems to be occurring is that many INJs have a *highly sensitive inferior function, Extraverted Sensation (Se), *which gathers copious amounts of sensory information from the outside world, including subtleties that other personality types tend to miss. Their Ni then subconsciously processes this data in order to make sense of it, like assembling pieces of a puzzle. Once finished, Ni generates an impression that seems to come out of “nowhere.” But the fact is that the intuition did not come out of nowhere, but from a *synthesis of sensory data gathered from the immediate environment combined with information from the INJ’s own psyche*.


As far as I understand that statement: "We take in information and then our subconscious gives us random conclusions." (If that's not what it says, let me know) It almost NEVER works like that. In fact, flashes of insight and "Aha moments" are more often seen in extroverted intuition, or classic intuition in general. I have many friends who do occasionally have intuitive "Just knowing" moments, and I have never seen it coming from one who has Ni in their top four. 

When I know things, I can easily trace my reasoning. Ni connects dots really fast, and it does use the subconscious for that, but it is not fully subconscious. Ni "Insights" are basically a ton of obscure information connected. "This is a factor, and this is a factor, and this is a factor, so it probably is this." If someone wants to know more feel free to send me a PM.


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## RRRoooaaaRRR (Jun 18, 2011)

> Ni "Insights" are basically a ton of obscure information connected. "This is a factor, and this is a factor, and this is a factor, so it probably is this." If someone wants to know more feel free to send me a PM.


I would qualify this by saying: Ni insights consist of obscure information connected - a lt of the time this is done in a sequential manner, but also there are very often elements of viewing the whole and quickly chunking up and then junking down - a good amount of this can and is carried out on auto pilot (and so therefore the nuts and bolts are carefully done unconsciously). That having been said - once the full solution is there it is easy to trace back the component parts - including that which was done on auto pilot unconsciously. Indeed the process of tracing is imperative to check out the make up.

If any one wants to know more please feel free to make a post here quoting any part


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## Worriedfunction (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeah Fi is a funny thing at times, people have often put forth the opinion, (the very cliched opinion), that I am cold and distant but I dont mean to come across that way and those who know me well realise the reality of this.


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## ukinfj (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm not really into this theory anymore, but I am still fascinated by the differences between people. I test as an INFJ and I would say I agree with some of the Ni stuff - but I can also say that I don't recognise the Fi stuff in myself (as I wouldn't as an INFJ).

It always seems to me that we sort of decide what is ok while there are no actual right and wrong answers. 

While it may be offensive to an Fi user to be told to put on a happy face. I find the idea of going with your emotions (I knew I valued it because I felt I valued it at the moment) shocking. To me - although all of this is opinion-based and there is no right and wrong - that idea makes me squeamish and feels dangerous. To me, I may have an initial reaction to things, I've not massively noticed, but I absolutely wouldn't trust it. I feel extremely strongly that everything should be stripped of connotations, personal experiences and preconceptions before it can be judged. I would say I can be opinionated when I have thought something through well and I have come to a conclusion I find to be logically consistent. However, I will be happier to say I have made no judgement due to a lack of information to make an informed decision than to just go where my heart takes me. I assume I am not objective enough to get it right and I assume I am vulnerable to irrationality by my just being human. I see irrationality as dangerous, because it can lead to homogenisation - and homogenisation always seems to me to be the most dangerous thing of all.

That's not to say this is right, of course, but it's interesting how we all value different things. Like I say, I don't really trust MBTI but that again is because it is a theory that lies in a bubble with itself. It can be true - but it is only as true as any other categorisation of personality and it is only ever true in certain circumstances. So it is not all-encompassing enough. But then an Fi user inherently values their feelings about something and might not see this as dangerous because they are staying true to themselves. And that's interesting.

Just a bit on Ni and Fe since its been discussed here:

Despite the above, I don't need logical consistency when it comes to individual people, only opinions on things. I do make snap judgements (which can be changed later if I got it wrong) although these judgements are never "bad" or "good" - they are "this is this kind of person who falls into this sort of category" and "the way other people will treat this person is ...." and "the implications of me ingratiating myself with this person will be ...." as well as "the implications of me not ingratiating myself with this person will be ...". I tend to be swamped with a convergence of these intuitions that tell me the situation - but my actual decision of what I should do might not be immediate. I'm awkward in social situations and often the reason is that I'm thinking - how do I want this to play out? Sometimes I'm just not sure what the best course of action is. Every choice I am given seems to me to be massively complex - everything has bad and good, so what is the best decision? What's best for everyone in the end?

I would say that's how Ni and Fe works. The main aim tends to be "what's the most appropriate course of action for the feelings of everyone here" (Fe) in this particular situation right now (Se)? Ni/Fe does not presuppose set rules of engagement. It recognises there are no rules of engagement. You just wait until you're in the situation and then you assess what kind of situation you are in and what rules have arisen from it.

I think I have had a lot of arguments with people over what is Ti and what is Ni. I see a lot of Ti in me but the above is how I actually would describe Ni as well. I have my epithany moments but in all honesty I don't know anyone who doesn't and I think it wouldn't be fair to say absolutely everyone I know must then be an Ni user. To me Ni refers to the process of zooming out on the picture, as if you're looking at a map with a system of roads. You know where you want to get to - or sometimes you don't but you're trying to decide - and you have about a million choices to make to decide what is the best route. You could look at it this way, that way, that person over there would probably look at it this way (would that cause me problems in the future? Yes, but are they important problems?) - my understanding of Ni is more like that. I think the idea of it being subconscious is quite unnecessary. I might not have the sprialling thoughts of some people - (which reminds me of this, which reminds me of this - ooo shiny thing!) as Ne is often described (I'd probably find this annoying as I prefer to come to a conclusion before moving on to something else, otherwise it feels messy and it also seems to have little worth to me - whats the point if you haven't made a decision?). But I do tend to zoom out and see a multitude of possibilities. The choices I make then require me to be fully zoomed out and deciding everything in advance - trying to make the decision that is the "best fit". I assume all decisions are flawed - but that's life.

Anyway, that's how I would describe Ni and Fe. The desire for objectivity I would actually describe as Ni not Fe. Ni wants to see everything from a new angle and is worried about contamination from elsewhere - the worst thing for an Ni user would be to have missed something. For something unexpected to happen that they hadn't thought of in advance. That's what I think, anyway.


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