# Typing your parents and relatives



## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I think it is more that caretakers are likely to be typed as Fe types. This forum for example. Read what they call FJ. The caretakers, the givers, the protectors, the nurturers. Shit is embarrassing. I picture people changing diapers and putting presents under the Christmas tree. lol. 

Jung started this stereotype and it appears that Keirsey really ran with it. 

But I agree that Si is close behind. Si is like actually artistic and shit. And can be cool. Another thing Keirsey got wrong by associating Se with art and athletics.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@*FearAndTrembling*

LEAVE. You are not welcome on this thread or any of my future threads. You've been systematically harassing me for well over two years and it is the creepiest thing I have experienced on this forum. Don't fool yourself about being truthful or straightforward. You're just stalking me at this point. Go. Away.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Night Huntress said:


> @*FearAndTrembling*
> 
> LEAVE. You are not welcome on this thread or any of my future threads. You've been systematically harassing me for well over two years and it is the creepiest thing I have experienced on this forum. Don't fool yourself about being truthful or straightforward. You're just stalking me at this point. Go. Away.


Don't slander me. I haven't stalked anything. I made a relevant post to this thread. Again.


If it is so bad set up a separation agreement. You seem to need a safe space. But I never heard a peep about it before. Now I am harassing you loll. You would think if I consistently harassed you for 2 years the mods or you would said something about it,. lol


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Don't slander me. I haven't stalked anything. I made a relevant post to this thread. Again.
> 
> 
> If it is so bad set up a separation agreement. You seem to need a safe space. But I never heard a peep about it before. Now I am harassing you loll. You would think if I consistently harassed you for 2 years the mods or you would said something about it,. lol


You've been asked to leave several times now, so I've reported you to the mods. You need to stop pushing people.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

owlet said:


> You've been asked to leave several times now, so I've reported you to the mods. You need to stop pushing people.


Thank you, Ms Robot. I love hall monitors. No idea what we would do with you. You don't add anything but how people should be silenced. Address my points instead of telling people what to do all the time. You're so fuckin anti-intellectual it is ridiculous.


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

FearAndTrembling said:


> Thank you, Ms Robot. I love hall monitors. No idea what we would do with you. You don't add anything but how people should be silenced. Address my points instead of telling people what to do all the time. You're so fuckin anti-intellectual it is ridiculous.


No problem (sorry, I can't process sarcasm).
If anti-intellectual means not letting people harass and disrespect others, then yes, you're right.
And now I'm going to get back on topic and ignore you.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

owlet said:


> No problem (sorry, I can't process sarcasm).
> If anti-intellectual means not letting people harass and disrespect others, then yes, you're right.
> And now I'm going to get back on topic and ignore you.


You're playing usher again. Trying to suppress people, as usual. That is anti-intellectual. 

I made good points about this subject. See post 21. See how that is a bad post. lol. Tell me how that is a bad, uninformed or troll post. Please. Just stop acting like you rule the world for a second and process things.

You're like that miserable neighbor who has the cops on speed dial.​


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

For future reference when this instance occurs: I'd just ignore whatever input is being disruptive and move on. It's not, such as in this situation, even worthy of being responded to because it contributes zero to the discussion. Unfortunately this thread is already derailed so I'd really like to get it back on track. 

One thing I think is overlooked with regards to the OP, however, is the holding environment and the cultural attitudes that this holding environment exists within. I for example did grow up in a very Si-Ne heavy household where the majority of my close family on my father's side that I grew up with, are all Ne-Si valuing. My dad is an LII, my stepmom is an LSE and my paternal grandmother is an ESE and my paternal grandfather was probably an LII as well. 

I do think that this did rub off on me quite a fair bit, especially as I was still growing up. When coupled with the fact that Swedish culture in general is very anti-Se and Ne-Si biased (it's pretty much the epitome of EII logic), think it can lead to a lot of personal biases not only with regards to other people, but also with regards to oneself. 

Other aspects probably include socioeconomic class. Would someone from a poor working class environment share the same perception of their parents as would someone from a middle or upper class environment? Traditionally speaking, the most traditional social groups tend to be the more well-off, because they benefit the least from any supposed social revolutions. Children's families of all kinds also tend to benefit from very traditional and safe environments and the middle class family is known for its preference towards the suburban lifestyle.

While I do think that the idea of the suburban middle class family life is probably in origin Si (and arguably delta Si), it of course doesn't mean that every family that aspires towards the suburban family life is a delta family. And of course, this becomes more interesting to compare to when you begin to mix in other kinds of family structures and ideals. The traditional working class would probably at least in the MBTI, be deemed the typical SP family. I am not entirely sure exactly how that would carry over to socionics, however, except there being a clear ST bias.

@Curi @owlet @Night Huntress @To_august @Fenix Wulfheart @Mordred Phantom @lets mosey @O_o @Verity

If I forgot someone you have my greatest condolences, but in my mind it just so happened that you momentarily ceased to exist.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@Entropic

"condolences"

bruh


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

Night Huntress said:


> I am currently also considering that there may be a trend in female parents and caretakers being likelier to receive a typing of Si ego/valuation. In general I have noticed that fathers, uncles, and so on have a higher propensity of being typed as non-Si ego types than the women in the family do, and I wonder if this has to do with the fact that women are naturally predisposed to (at least superficially) assuming a more caring and nurturing role. In the sense that it's a gender role.
> 
> I have never seen anyone type their mother as an ILE or an SLE, for example. I wonder if there's an assumption of masculinity tacked onto types like that.


(I've tried to reply to this about three times and my browser keeps crashing - evil spirits in my laptop)

This is a good point. I think I've only talked to a couple of people who typed their fathers/male relatives as Si ego, while many have typed mothers/female relatives as Si. I do think Si can come across these days as more typically 'feminine' - but if you look back through time, it was more masculine for a long time. This can be seen in a lot of academic writings, especially around literature and culture, with the men writing on these (generally men) focused on aestheticism for its own sake.
@Entropic Sorry, I'll have to write a reply to you in a separate post because my browser is acting up so badly..


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## owlet (May 7, 2010)

Entropic said:


> While I do think that the idea of the suburban middle class family life is probably in origin Si (and arguably delta Si), it of course doesn't mean that every family that aspires towards the suburban family life is a delta family. And of course, this becomes more interesting to compare to when you begin to mix in other kinds of family structures and ideals. The traditional working class would probably at least in the MBTI, be deemed the typical SP family. I am not entirely sure exactly how that would carry over to socionics, however, except there being a clear ST bias.


I do agree with what you've said here. Actually, and this is personal experience so not really representative, but my older sister was a very obvious SLE when she was younger, but once she got married to a man from a very middle class background (this is English middle class), her use of Fe and Si increased dramatically and she 'put on' the face of an almost stereotypical ESE woman, because that was what was expected of her (it caused her an extreme amount of stress and she's moved back towards her usual self now). So I wonder if some parents or relatives are simply acting out a focus on things that, when left to their own devices, they wouldn't normally focus on?



> If I forgot someone you have my greatest condolences, but in my mind it just so happened that you momentarily ceased to exist.


_Brutal_


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## AdInfinitum (Oct 21, 2014)

Interesting topic and I do enjoy the sincere way of presenting actual issues when people are introduced to typology whatsoever.

There is such a bias created due to aligning systems between eachother so that surrounding concepts are reunited into a huge misunderstanding and as NH has stated, creating a family, nurturing their members, ensuring the growth and development of those dear to you require a lot more than Si. A person is put in different, difficult and fragile roles to ensure the best outcomes for the concepts which hold importance to them and those around them so we might see the masks set upon their personality instead of their true self. For example: My mother is a SEI but before truly grasping typology I would have sworn on all the holy skies that she is a LSE due to the values she had tried to sprout awareness towards in me (e.g. efficiency, respect towards my work and the expectations of others, even a competitive nature was given to me since early ages, an increasing regard towards my appearance, daily chores, etc.) however, when she retracted from her roles I could easily glance into her true self which includes being a Si lead with a lovely internal world and a very insightful nature, she has amazing improvisation skills with the materials she has at hand, she is naturally in tune with her interior sensations so deeply that when she is done with her daily chores she continuously talks about how everything affects her and she knows what measures to take in order to stop the crippling pain/dizziness/nausea she is going through, I would say it is the most seen element in her world perceiving and if I am not mistaken, that is how the dominant function should feel to the user. And why I decided Fe over Te is due to her wish to unite people through relaxing atmospheres, I would always call her a magician of shapes, taste and calming emotions thrown all around her, she is a forever-blooming flower in a garden sustained only through her talents.

Dad is an ESI , however, same as mom he took on some roles that time embraced him with, maybe changed him a little, gave him more insight, prepared him for the worst and calmed some wounds while reviving others. Shallowly, at that time I typed him as LSE strictly due to his teaching style. Once you go deeper in typology there are wonderful archetypes defining people's eyes into the field of their existence, each and every one of them painting different worlds sprinkled with their deep inner conflicts.

So yes, Si is more than appearances and it might not even be Si to the eye of the beholder and as I pave my path into the whole concept I discover how fascinating and beautiful people can be due to the simple fact that there is so much uniqueness to them. 

EDIT: God, I am sorry for anyone having to read this, I have such a complicated way of composing phrases.


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## O_o (Oct 22, 2011)

Yeah, interesting topic to me. I originally typed my mom ESE pretty blindly.

With my mom, for example - how she communicates with people (at least how she values communicating with people) and how she wants to be 'viewed' all fits around a very stereotypical "housewife" role - comforter, emotionally warm, etc stuff. From an outside perspective, she values aesthetics, comfort, etc. But distinguishing between what is 'played up' and what is there. I'm pretty sure at this point that she is an SLE (ILE in second). And it's interesting seeing how she reacts to the other women around her. In Europe she felt ostracized because she wasn't serious and 'calm' enough so she tried to 'make up' for that by being ex) wonderful at cooking, putting a lot into family gatherings, doing stereotypical 'wife' stuff. In America she feels lacking because she sees all these delicate, sociably-smooth housewives with their fancy homes (majority of these women are upper-middle class here) and she feels different. As a kid, she had all male friends, huge into sports, extremely competitive and a 'performer', I can't imagine anyone better at succeeding in the shittiest of situations and pulling herself out- lots of street smarts. And she is really confident with herself, but a part of her (and you can see it when she really talks about some things, when she asks for certain advice) seems to feel like she's 'awkward' in the role she tries to play. Very big into aesthetics and decorating, but our home looks tacky as all fuck - gold curtains, chandeliers, furniture that's not meant to be sat on, Louis XIVing the fuck out of everything (I'm not complaining, but it is what it is). She sucks at 'emotionally comforting' but will do anything to get 'around' that - she'll cook you whatever you need, take you anywhere, distract you, but there's an indirectness to that lol. Thinking of my friend's IEI mom. There's a similar kind of story and 'cover up'.

I mean, I guess it ties into the idea that everyone can really use every function, and parental roles tend to require certain kind of things (differing from culture, but still certain similarities), and what shows is the parent's 'flexibility' and general comfort rather than always necessarily whether they're just 'valuing' the traits associated with it or not.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

owlet said:


> (I've tried to reply to this about three times and my browser keeps crashing - evil spirits in my laptop)
> 
> This is a good point. I think I've only talked to a couple of people who typed their fathers/male relatives as Si ego, while many have typed mothers/female relatives as Si. I do think Si can come across these days as more typically 'feminine' - but if you look back through time, it was more masculine for a long time. This can be seen in a lot of academic writings, especially around literature and culture, with the men writing on these (generally men) focused on aestheticism for its own sake.
> @*Entropic* Sorry, I'll have to write a reply to you in a separate post because my browser is acting up so badly..


Yeah I think it is less likely to be assumed feminine in cultures where Western notions of masculinity don't exist. But honestly, I am not sure it is even right to speak in terms of isolated cultures in that way, because Western culture bleeds into the rest of the world so much that many other cultures have adopted many of these mannerisms and expectations as their own. One could argue it's a "global" culture now, but the primary undertone and source of propagation is still Western -- and specifically American.

For example, standing up to and even disrespecting the older members of the family is a value that becomes more and more prominent in Asian families these days, among the youth, because a lot of media portrays independence and individualism as ideal. Some people would call this "liberation" (an inherently disrespectful notion to hold, imo) although it is only ONE of several ways of handling the problem. Diplomacy and concern for the desires of the group is another. 

And as notions of what is the right way to act in a family change, so does your perception of your position and role in the family. Ultimately, how you see your parents and relatives also changes as a result of this. And here we are.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@AdInfinitum
You expressed yourself very well and it's perfectly understandable :happy:

I agree that typing someone on the basis of the various roles they assume can prove to be erroneous. I suspect that sometimes it becomes unavoidable though, because we may not have the chance to get to know someone better :/ Throughout our life we all embrace so many different roles for different people. I may be a rock of strength to someone and be a mushy little fluffball to another. I may be a taskmaster to one and a perennially late person to another. Sadly we often don't have the capacity to see past what someone else is to us, as opposed to who they really are. But we certainly can try. And I believe that with parents and relatives who have contributed to our growth, they definitely deserve that kind of empathy. (At least assuming you have a good relationship with these people.)

I did something similar to you when I typed my mom as SLI. I found her so efficient around the house and outside it, working so smartly and always knowing exactly how to get stuff done, while being chilled out and smooth-paced about it. I always thought she had poor Ni though, because she would always tell me to get stuff done way before I thought it was necessary.

Turns out I just had a shit sense of time because she always turned out to be on the DOT with her predictions. She knew exactly how long I would take for something and just because I found her warnings stressful I attributed it to a bad sense of time, when in actuality I was the one suffering from that fault, lol! She also has this impeccable sense of just knowing someone's character and motives right when she meets them. So many EII signs. 

(Tbh, I digress, but realizing how absolutely horrible my sense of time is these days and I am feeling so inadequate lol. Oh god. I can't be on time to things to save my life... I literally miss the right bus_ every day_...)


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

O_o said:


> Yeah, interesting topic to me. I originally typed my mom ESE pretty blindly.
> 
> With my mom, for example - how she communicates with people (at least how she values communicating with people) and how she wants to be 'viewed' all fits around a very stereotypical "housewife" role - comforter, emotionally warm, etc stuff. From an outside perspective, she values aesthetics, comfort, etc. But distinguishing between what is 'played up' and what is there. I'm pretty sure at this point that she is an SLE (ILE in second).


Yes!! First SLE mom on this thread! Cookie for you.

SLE women are so interesting. When I think female SLE, I think P!nk or Halsey, who are both pretty badass.

I love reasonable and intelligent SLE adults, though. They know how to capitalize on all the best opportunities, but they are also extremely grounded, stable, and protective people. And when they express emotion genuinely, it's just so sweet.


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## Lord Fenix Wulfheart (Aug 18, 2015)

I only ever meet SLE men...T_T


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## myst91 (Sep 9, 2014)

I type my parents ESI and LIE.

When I was a kid, I used to call my grandmother a sour lemon. She most certainly wasn't anything like this: _"Which is probably why your grandma loves asking about how you feel, trying to cheer you up, and cooking for you. I mean, shit. Sometimes people just want to be loved and appreciated."_ (She did cook, this was the only thing true. I can't type her tho', not enough information.)


This isn't to do with Si in Socionics, only in MBTI:



> First of all, many adults tend to become more set in their ways when they grow up. This doesn't necessarily mean they're predisposed to being traditional, but that the mind gravitates towards what has always worked all these years and will continue to work.


What has always worked etc... In Socionics, this is easily just Rational Sensor. Also, MBTI ISxJ correlates best to Socionics xSI.




owlet said:


> I think the bolded fits the socialisation idea, because in many cultures parents especially are supposed to be caring, protective, pay attention to their child's comfort etc. It would be interesting to see if there was a disparity between people typing their parents certain ways (in Socionics) depending on where they come from. There might also be a difference based on how authoritarian the parents/relatives were, as that would influence people's responses to them (and they'd be more likely to type them as a type they don't like in theory - which weirdly seems to be Si/Fe egos a lot of the time).


I'm in the EU.

As for your bolded: "they care for others, pay attention to their comfort, may be ritualistic and protective, and so on", my mom takes care of food, cleaning etc matters in an Se fashion. She can enjoy comfort but it's clearly not what she pays the main attention to. Protective, somewhat. Ritualistic, no. My dad was Si PoLR most likely. :wink: But he was more protective. I don't see why that'd even be linked to Si.

Both and my grandmother had some authoritarian tendencies. That's got nothing to do with what I type them and it's not out of dislike.




Night Huntress said:


> I am currently also considering that there may be a trend in female parents and caretakers being likelier to receive a typing of Si ego/valuation. In general I have noticed that fathers, uncles, and so on have a higher propensity of being typed as non-Si ego types than the women in the family do, and I wonder if this has to do with the fact that women are naturally predisposed to (at least superficially) assuming a more caring and nurturing role. In the sense that it's a gender role.
> 
> I have never seen anyone type their mother as an ILE or an SLE, for example. I wonder if there's an assumption of masculinity tacked onto types like that.


My mom's actually got a rather decent amount of masculinity. Sometimes almost more masculine than my dad, him being Ni ego. I say almost since my father did have a lot more Te than my mom.


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

@*Entropic*, these are great questions to consider.

My growing up experience was relatively varied with respect to IEs. Except, probably, for Ne. Don't think I've been exposed to anything Ne related as a kid or a teenager. It didn't occur to me before, but it could be the reason why I think my Ne is so very poor. I don't quite understand how it works for people and Ne can easily be the source of uncertainty and anxiety for me. Not only my relatives but society in general, including school environment - which was pretty strict at the beginning to the point of being ridiculous - neither provided nor encouraged much of it.

Si wasn't in the top spot either. The closest I can get to it was about learning the importance of observing hygiene rules and keeping yourself safe and stable. Fancy stuff like good looking clothes, making comfy environments, tasty food, "decorating" one's life in some way was never in the picture and was frowned upon or treated as useless things only rich people can spend time on. 

Middle class comfortable lifestyle, the way it is understood in the west, has never been advocated but approached with a dose of disdain. Can't say I minded such state of things. That's the way I was brought up and it made sense. But it's worth noting that middle class was literally non-extent here so there wasn't any lobby to explain possible benefits of it. I'm from the place where for eighty-something years authorities were trying to eliminate classes and succeeded to quite a significant degree in this pursuit so almost everybody here still belong to working class. Now it just became poorer. Te and Se were (and still are) universally valued by society here, which in its turn influences families choices and aspirations. It also makes sense that it resembles Socionics ST. There's been a discernible emerging trend of moving towards more "European", and I'd say Si, way of life in a last decade or so though.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

@To_august yes my experiences mirror yours and what others have said about adopting a role you're not comfortable with because the environment didn't expose you to your valued IEs or expect you to express them. While I did have some exposure to Se because my maternal cousin is an SLE and her mother (my aunt) is an ESI and I grew up with them a bit intensely when I was very young, I don't think I ever really got any real Se exposure in the valued sense. Both my ESE grandmother and my LSE stepmother used Se against me in very stressful ways without teaching me how to use it back which goes in line with how the demonstrative is used to mock people and belittle them, not necessarily to make others improve in this area. While I'm not going to say that they did try to consciously do just that, I often found myself in a spot where I just felt very pressured without knowing how to respond to it. 

My aunt once told me when I was younger that I'd develop this capacity better eventually when I felt more secure with myself and she was right about that. I finally feel that I've gotten some proper Se exposure in the past years along with ability to practice that skill and I definitely feel how much of a difference it makes in my psyche in its ability to round out my character. Before that I identified more with the Se PoLR attitude of my culture (it's extremely conflict avoidant and indirect) and it doesn't help that I pretty much was daddy's boy growing up so I adopted a lot of things from my dad which probably ended up including his conflict avoidance. So in general while I grew up in heavy conflict ridden environments I was never encouraged to learn how to deal with that adequately even though I always had this inner sense of knowing that I can. I just don't know how. 

I think that's typical in general when we underdevelop our super-id; we just see someone else being skilled in this area and we feel like we could do it too but then we just don't know how anyway. That experience is infinitely frustrating. 

I also don't respond as well to SLEs and their use of Se because it tends to come with an implied assumption about using Fe and that makes me feel uncomfortable. Fe is the only IE I absolutely knew very early on bothered me though, but then I spent many years as a child to grow up with my conflictor.

She IS the epitome alpha SF AND the most literal example of an MBTI ESFJ at the same time though. I've never met a person as type caricature as her.


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