# Lying Vs. Being Honest



## NephilimAzrael (Oct 26, 2008)

Kysinor said:


> *How* other individuals possibly chose to interpret my message is not a fault of my own; which can be easily manipulated; which is why I say people perceive information different. Usage of either rhetoric and / or personal writing style does not make a message less true -- in fact I would say that it has actually little to do with it at all I would say; again; I do not imply that you stated this.


Please clarify why this assertion is relevant. I understand that one may assume that use of rethoric is important, yet, over emphasis of rhetoric is what I was shedding light on, in general, rather than specifically in your posts. I do attempt to maintain as close a balance as possible between logic, rhetoric and dialectic measures.



> My reference to how people perceive information by NF in relation to MBTI was ignorance by my side; so I take that back except that I do still state that people perceive different.


This is strongly dependent on your own knowledge of what perception entails.. I am speaking on perception as it has come to be understood through knowledge amassed.. The cognitive process of understanding/being aware of sensory information.. As far as this goes, I assert that the use of this perception requires a judgement to be made, should any effect have to come about. Or even:



James Gibson said:


> perception and movement are two sides of the same coin, the coin is action


Whereby the motives of perception are not inherently representative of the reality of anything.. 
Human perception is greatly flawed in presenting the truth by itself.. 



> Usually isn't very accurate indeed. Just because I'm honest about a thing doesn't necessarily mean that the thing I'm implying isn't true due to my possibility of ignorance; but just because I ought to be a little ignorant about an issue now whenever it might be doesn't make my intent of honesty being less valid even though it *could* be not valid. And certainly could the lack of knowledge be the source of such; but always?


I do not understand what you are sating here.. The message itself can cause it to be perceived as unmeasured, it may not be biased, but some of the criteria for it to be honest is lacking. This is what I mean by unintentionally misleading someone. You are being honest (I am taking in good faith) and thus, I do not assume you have any intent to mislead, thus you are not lying to me.. However, truth is not the diametric opposite of lies. Likewise, honesty remains upon a spectra, in which case, if one does not intentionally aim to mislead or misinform someone, they are not lying, they are failing to be honest. This is what forms dishonesty. Does that make sense?



> We can't know everything; we can't be sure of everything. Knowledge is a powerful thing that's sure; but is it everything? Knowledge have to come from somewhere; but how do we determinate such knowledge as true? What if such knowledge has a possibility to not being true? Which is why I am thinking about new ways of thinking rather than to amass information; even though a large base of information would be quite useful. Of course this doesn't not necessarily imply that I won't search for information about a subject matter that already exist.


Rhetoric is unsuccessful in accessing truth for the reasons you have stated here. Knowledge may not hold any definition, but, it certainly does not have an absolute as insinuated above.. Knowledge, when used as a measure can be used to achieve a greater awareness or assurance. To be able to apply knowledge more effectively and thus assist ourselves in being clearer (beyond mere perception) then we can attain a more probable image of truth.. 

Information is a composite of knowledge, not knowledge itself, which is what is implied in the above quotation. Just as data is a composite of information. And an instance a composite of data.. This differentiation becomes familiar as we continue down this route.. It becomes a resounding Sorites paradox and that, I am afraid is a rather elusive lie in itself, for it aims to misdirect the receiver from pursuing truth.. Limited knowledge can be enhanced and reassessed progressively, whilst not holding confidence in knowledge acquired, scrutinised and enhanced in a continuum is the equivalent of conserving a principle of faith rather than accuracy. To conserve such a principle would not result in the consequence of being honest, it would be consequentially ignorant..


----------



## thehigher (Apr 20, 2009)

Welp...lets see....

I personally like to be honest all the time. Honesty makes things less complicated. I would like everyone to be honest with me no matter what. Therefore, I like to be as honest as I can with everyone. 

Is there a time to lie? Gosh I don't know haha. If it is in accordance to your personal values....sure... If it is in accordance to your personal rationale.....sure. To me...it isn't about when to lie...or when not to lie....to me it's more about....why do you act the way do? If it makes sense to me....then I accept it. I don't think there is a huge law that says here is where to lie and where not to lie. 

I hope you don't choose to lie though. Follow your intuition, and I think you may arive at that conclusion.


----------



## Kysinor (Mar 19, 2009)

NephilimAzrael said:


> Please clarify why this assertion is relevant.


The reason why this assertion it is relevant is that the receiver of my possible information can judge my information different in many angles which myself can not determinate; and the receiver of of my information can twist my words in many ways in such ways that I didn't intend; we should not forget that communication is a tool and it has it's limits and it's possible to abuse such tool and possibly if one is seeking to abuse such tool it isn't my fault that such person abuse it. We'll go around in circles if we're going on like this. 



> This is strongly dependent on your own knowledge of what perception entails.. I am speaking on perception as it has come to be understood through knowledge amassed.. The cognitive process of understanding/being aware of sensory information.. As far as this goes, I assert that the use of this perception requires a judgement to be made, should any effect have to come about. Or even:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes the human perception could in most cases be flawed in presenting the truth; I did not imply that the senses weren't flawed in such. But is knowledge everything in finding a possible solution and truth that does not refer to the human five senses? No; it is other possible ways to process such knowledge to come to such conclusion. If we'll focus on what is "right" in itself we have the possibility of narrowing our vision of the truth if we're not certain if such knowledge isn't right; as such knowledge could easily be applied wrong -- and if we apply it in practice; how do we make sure that such knowledge is accurate if the fives senses are flawed in presenting the truth? :laughing: 



> I do not understand what you are sating here.. The message itself can cause it to be perceived as unmeasured, it may not be biased, but some of the criteria for it to be honest is lacking.


 It could miss a form of criteria; but it also couldn't. Sometimes less is more than more; and omitting such criteria that has a possiblity of not being honest could be better than to apply such knowledge that would be either misleading and not accurate. 



> However, truth is not the diametric opposite of lies. Likewise, honesty remains upon a spectra, in which case, if one does not intentionally aim to mislead or misinform someone, they are not lying, they are failing to be honest. This is what forms dishonesty. Does that make sense?


 Yes it's likely a possibility that the person that conveys a certain message can be dishonest without being aware of it; even if the person that convey such a message isn't lying himself. But even if you are able to tell whole story, what information is accurate and which is not? What if such information that you amassed was misleading information? Could in such case instead cloud your vision rather than if you didn't have such misleading information? 



> Rhetoric is unsuccessful in accessing truth for the reasons you have stated here. Knowledge may not hold any definition, but, it certainly does not have an absolute as insinuated above.. Knowledge, when used as a measure can be used to achieve a greater awareness or assurance. To be able to apply knowledge more effectively and thus assist ourselves in being clearer (beyond mere perception) then we can attain a more probable image of truth..
> 
> Information is a composite of knowledge, not knowledge itself, which is what is implied in the above quotation. Just as data is a composite of information. And an instance a composite of data.. This differentiation becomes familiar as we continue down this route.. It becomes a resounding Sorites paradox and that, I am afraid is a rather elusive lie in itself, for it aims to misdirect the receiver from pursuing truth.. Limited knowledge can be enhanced and reassessed progressively, whilst not holding confidence in knowledge acquired, scrutinised and enhanced in a continuum is the equivalent of conserving a principle of faith rather than accuracy. To conserve such a principle would not result in the consequence of being honest, it would be consequentially ignorant..


Just as we're discussion here is what I'm talking about. That of which you tell is probably information that you amassed and perhaps a lot of facts, but what I meaning is how we process such information because it is trough that way we form concepts in the first place -- abstract connections. To be able to process the connections between the data could sometimes be more important than the amount of data you possess yourself. That is why we might use metaphors and the likes; because it gives a potential other way to look at a certain thing; because there is just more than one angle to look at a piece of information and people *perceive different*. To have confidence in information itself that *could not* be accurate would be foolish -- if we applied this mindset everywhere; we'll never find anything new. Do not focus on the information itself and try to twist it; focus on what I intend to message.


----------



## Troll (Apr 5, 2009)

Honesty begins with being honest to yourself. A person who is honest with themself will be unlikely to be dishonest with others. A person in the habit of lying to others is mostly likely a person who is habitually dishonest with himself.
Anyone who feels the need to quibble over the definition of what is honesty and what is dishonesty strikes me as being most likely inherently dishonest. An honest person knows darn well what the difference is.

And that's the essential point it all comes down to: the fact that if you spend your life in dishonest mode you end up so mixed up that you end up unable to distinguish between up and down or day and night.
Be true to yourself, because this will help you see and think clearly more than any other gimmicks you might try.
Honesty is neither a gimmick nor a policy, it is a state of mind. Nothing can top it.


----------



## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)

The only time I will ever lie is if it's in regards to myself personally and perhaps something personal that I'm not okay with being brought out into the open.

In this situation, however instead of lying I mostly just am all "yea I don't wanna talk about it." 

But. Occassionally it's necessary I think. 

"Do I look fat in these jeans?"

"No, you actually look like a malnutritioned ethiopian whose organs are starting to fail."

See what I mean?

EDIT: Another acceptable context. If I need to protect the innocence/pride/privacy/etc. of a friend I care deeply about, I will create the most badass shit to cover for them.

Also. Skipping class or work. Lies all over the place.


----------



## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

Kevinaswell said:


> The only time I will ever lie is if it's in regards to myself personally and perhaps something personal that I'm not okay with being brought out into the open.
> 
> In this situation, however instead of lying I mostly just am all "yea I don't wanna talk about it."
> 
> ...


Agreed. I dont lie to those close to me unless it is for one of the reasons above, but to strangers or people i dont know that well or care about, then sometimes it can be interesting to see what i can getthem to believe. Even more fun at the poker tables


----------



## Perseus (Mar 7, 2009)

If you ask 16 different types to decribe an event in words, you will get 16 different versions of the truth.


----------



## Kevinaswell (May 6, 2009)

Perseus said:


> If you ask 16 different types to decribe an event in words, you will get 16 different versions of the truth.


All true, though. 

Unless one is lying. For whatever demented reason.


----------



## turbomursu (Apr 14, 2009)

i don't lie usually. it makes me feel bad and i'm too absent minded to remember what i've said so catching me lying would be too easy. i was raised that way. always tell the truth or if you know the truth is going to hurt someone, tell nothing or don't answer the question.

i've got away with my mom asking about my drinking when i was younger by just telling the truth. she always thought i was joking


----------



## Jamie.Ether (Jul 1, 2011)

Dishonesty annoys me because I think it's immoral, but even more so it annoys me because I find it to be a waste of time. Lies complicate things and usually for nothing in the end. It's cowardly and I can't respect it at all. It's just of bad character. People lie to themselves when they tell themselves that they are only lying to avoid hurting someone. They are lying because they wish to avoid conflict with that person. They are not benefiting anyone by lying to them. Encouraging others to believe things that are not true is not helping them, it only holds them back. Everyone needs to discover truth and by lying to someone you are putting roadblocks in their way to find the truth. You're only contributing delusion and making their journey longer than it needs to be. I see this as being mindless, selfish and counter-productive.


----------



## Perseus (Mar 7, 2009)

Jamie.Ether said:


> Dishonesty annoys me because I think it's immoral, but even more so it annoys me because I find it to be a waste of time. Lies complicate things and usually for nothing in the end. It's cowardly and I can't respect it at all. It's just of bad character. People lie to themselves when they tell themselves that they are only lying to avoid hurting someone. They are lying because they wish to avoid conflict with that person. They are not benefiting anyone by lying to them. Encouraging others to believe things that are not true is not helping them, it only holds them back. Everyone needs to discover truth and by lying to someone you are putting roadblocks in their way to find the truth. You're only contributing delusion and making their journey longer than it needs to be. I see this as being mindless, selfish and counter-productive.


Dishonesty annoys a dismays me, but it is just their personality, the Dirty Rats ISXJ.


----------



## MCRTS (Jul 4, 2011)

Lying is easy for me, but I prefer being honest. I don't flatter a person, any compliment I give is what I truly and honestly believe about that person. Like, you know the common "Do I look fat in this outfit?", if I say no, I'm not lying. I really don't think the person looks fat. But yeah, I can pull of a lie if I want to. And people all believe me, including those close to me.


----------



## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Telling the truth could mean two things: the risk of rejection from others, and/or the risk of rejection of self (as in personal values- not 'ego' psychology).

It's just like feeding people bitter medicine. Would you rather feel that distaste in your mouth forever? Or would you rather be honest, because sometimes courage actually feels much better than living a lie? Ultimately, the person who can dictate your own happiness is you.

Telling a lie so that others can accept you for whom you are is focusing waay too much on what others think, and not taking credit for your own personal integrity. That's like letting others own you. At the same time, there are ways to be honest without being offensive, rude, or step-on-toes kinda behavior.

At the end of the day, it's really about looking at yourself in the mirror and being able to accept yourself for whom you are, because that is way more empowering than disowning the most important part whom you are. Then again, I tend to be too honest sometimes where I admit, it makes life a bit difficult, but at least I am S-A-T-I-S-F-I-E-D. Nobody can take that away from me. No one.


----------



## Life.Is.A.Game (Nov 5, 2010)

People take lying way too seriously. I used to be one of them people but then I realized that people lie because they don't want to get in a fight, they're scared to say the truth or they just don't want to. People have that choice, to tell the truth or not... so ... I don't really care anymore about "the truth" because the truth is relative anyway.

What I care about is... am I content with my life? Yes? Ok then, go on and lie to me, what do I care? Doesn't hurt me any.


----------



## Life.Is.A.Game (Nov 5, 2010)

My sister just told me I'm too honest. And I wasn't even honest, I was trying to say something by asking her questions, but she's a smart cookie and she figured out what I wanted to say..however, I was not even up front and honest about it. Yet I'm too honest? 
But then if I lie it's not good either... see? Either way it's not good with some people. Fuck em, I'm so tired of having to worry about it and walking on egg shells. I'm just gonna say whatever comes to my mind and that's that, if people don't like it, too bad.


----------



## Chwimleian (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah, I'm too honest most if not all of the time. When someone asks me a question, the idea of 'maybe I shouldn't tell the truth' hardly ever comes up in my head...


----------



## Misha (Dec 18, 2011)

If, for some reason, we must tell the truth, even if we risk the hurtful feelings of others, than we should do it the right way. This includes choosing the right place and time. If it is going to be hurtful then it should be done in a private place and at a time that they are able to get support from others.

And if the truth is needed to be said, say the whole truth. I also must emphasize on being descriptive. Also when telling the ugly truth, we have to expect the worst, but hope for the best. At the risk of the loved one thinking that it is a lie, try not to fight back or defend yourself. Instead of doing this, try and listen to their reactions and feelings. In worst case scenarios, such as cheating in a relationship, the truth must be told, because sooner or later the lies build up and the truth will come out. 

Even though in certain small situations lying is needed we need to make sure that we don't become a continuous liar. A few lies here and there are okay, but they do build up. Keep it to only when necessary in the relationship in order to avoid conflicts.

By the way, those who've claimed that they've never lied are among the liars themselves.


----------



## Yardiff Bey (Jun 5, 2011)

Small, white lies, I can do.

Truth, is what I prefer. Even if it is "I'd rather not say".

Then I don't have to try to remember who I've told what lie to.


----------



## GenreWalker (Jun 13, 2012)

I love honest people (even brutally honest), and lean towards honesty myself. I enjoy searching for truth. I seem to be able to see through quite a few lies as well, and when I do I lose a little respect for the person\group. Unfortunately, it seems that lies are _much _​more abundant than truths.


----------



## Roland Khan (May 10, 2009)

I lie because I get no other pleasure from life....

If it's just a matter of personal truths/lies, they make no difference to me. When it comes to objectivity and social policies etc., then lying just to support your side is just fucked up because it is affecting a lot of other people. To where lies about your personal life, hobbies, the stuffed animal on your bed you claim not to have sex with, the marijuana you tell the officer is not in your pocket, etc. are all personal choices and nobody elses business to begin with if you dont want it to be, so lying is not wrong, it's just a choice of privacy.


----------

