# Donald Trump IS type 8w7



## Swordsman of Mana

Remcy said:


> You don't really know how Te works if you say that society is structured around Ti/Fe though :/
> Schedules, bureaucracy, rules, laws, numeric grading, etc. - those are all almost purely Te things.


exactly, though I'd argue society is just Je in general (lots of Fe governing the way things work too). 



> It's really quite the opposite of what you say about society based on Ti - Ti users have trouble with dealing rigid society structure because they want to work based on their views and frameworks.


indeed, I can sometimes lack patience with them for this reason. naturally, I'm not exactly a fan of rigidity, strict rules, etc myself, but the Te in me is like "let's define this already so we can move on and actually get shit done". frequent structure changes are kind of a nuisance. 

I think this is why ENTPs in business tend to entrepreneurs, because they have to have control over the systems and be able to tinker with them



> ENTPs for example are notorious for being anarchists from a very young age and they're definitely Ti-users. Is society built on anarchism?


makes sense. ENTP = Ne + Ti = double hatred of structure. this is probably why I get along with them better than INTPs, who are more likely to be social utopia theorists in some capacity.


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## Swordsman of Mana

Tega1 said:


> You can check this link https://uk.pinterest.com/stackemupennea/ mentions his a 8w7 sp/so


I don't trust that site at all.


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## Swordsman of Mana

Toroidal said:


> What's interesting is we are both ENFP 7w8 > 4w3 so we can see the similarities between ourselves and Trump. I'm a So/Sx just like Trump too, prob cuz I don't have any 1w9, in fact those two enneagram types I identify the least with and probably the same for Trump too.


the 1w9 fix makes me calmer and more grounded than most 7s.


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## Remcy

Toroidal said:


> This is going a little bit off topic but okay.
> 
> First those examples are terrible. You can redefine most of those as either Ti or Te depending on your POV. e.g. Schedules could be Ti because it is listing events in sequence A:B:C:E...n or Te because it's required for someone to function with a busy schedule. Likewise bureaucracy can be Ti because it's an hierarchy that is occupied with organization over results. Hence all the DMV jokes. Policy guidelines could be Ti because they want to quantify every detail and variable onto paper. Same with numeric grading.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...life-example-how-they-differ.html#post3740099
> 
> Ti is concerned with making rigid logical structures that explain everything. This is why they are rigid in the first place because they try to account for all variables and situations. Te is concerned with pragmatic application and it's less rigid because it doesn't care about accounting for all the details.
> 
> Almost everything in academia is Ti: the concept of free trade economics, military hegemony, conservative vs. liberal ideology, computer science, abstract math. The one exception is engineering which is Te dominated. Furthermore Ti works with Fe. Fe wants to keep the peace and ensure social harmony. So students are encouraged to not speak out or express ideas that would offend the professor or else they'll get a bad grade. The same is true in the workforce where people need to be careful of saying something that'll get them fired. Likewise on TV and in politics. Fe is everywhere in society trying to force people to conform to social norms and generally accepted principles.
> 
> This is what university ultimately creates, plastic humans injection molded with the latest Ti dogma that need to stay in line and not offend anyone (Fe). Most corporations, the news media and politics then enforce this social norm. @*Entropic* Trump is the exact opposite of all of this. Which is why the media goes crazy with him. He breaks all the Ti/Fe rules. Trump says what he believes (Fi) and does what he wants to do (Te).
> 
> With regards to the ENTP, Anarchism is a create example of a rigid Ti dogma. It's tried to create a great structure and it makes great sense in theory however it's completely impractical which is why it's not used in life. However Communism and Capitalism both fall into this exact same category. So yes society is based on Ti. Lastly since the ENTP favors Ti > Fe they'll lean toward Anarchism (or some other Dogma) until Fe develops and balances them.


Your function definitions are really wonky. Ti likes hierarchy? No, it's exactly the opposite. Hierarchy is a good example of how Te relies on external structure. Ti defies external structure unless it sees a way for it to make sense.

Your examples of Fe are also really just examples of how Te conforms to external guidelines and rules because Te doesn't have a natural preference for thinking how to approach something differently. Since Fe always works Ti, Ti-Fe users make their own judgments about how to treat and ensure harmony, without having to resort to following rules just because they are rules. 

And your examples of academia, how the hell are those just Ti?


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## Swordsman of Mana

@Toroidal , you're right about Fe, but @Remcy is correct that your take on Ti is extremely off.


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## Elistra

Trump = ESTP, and my guess as to primary enneagram type would be either 8w7 or 7w8. He's also got a 3 component in there somewhere, too.

His book makes it even more obvious than his speeches, if you've ever read it.


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## Toroidal

Remcy said:


> Your function definitions are really wonky. Ti likes hierarchy? No, it's exactly the opposite. Hierarchy is a good example of how Te relies on external structure. Ti defies external structure unless it sees a way for it to make sense.
> 
> Your examples of Fe are also really just examples of how Te conforms to external guidelines and rules because Te doesn't have a natural preference for thinking how to approach something differently. Since Fe always works Ti, Ti-Fe users make their own judgments about how to treat and ensure harmony, without having to resort to following rules just because they are rules.
> 
> And your examples of academia, how the hell are those just Ti?


The reason I would say hierarchy is more Ti is because of the following quote from the link I posted, Ti is "logical progression from one point to the next that creates a system." In other words Ti would more likely create a chain of commend (A:B:C:E) where your case keeps getting escalated by customer support. Te would probably want to go straight to top (A:E), "just get me the manager."

As for the second paragraph is kind of hard for me to understand. My Fe examples are how a Fi/Te user views Fe. Obviously I'll have a bias that dislikes Fe. From my POV Fe/Ti users tend to codify social norms (Fe) through Ti and then believe that is how a person should act. This is more common in the Fe > Ti users. After Ti develops they tend to develop their own judgements. In other worlds the Fi users natural state is to be an individual while the Fe users natural state is to be part of the collective. As each user develops their thinking functions it balances them out where they can make decisions based on the opposite dichotomy however these base preferences still remain.


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## Drops of Jupiter

@Toroidal Your understanding of Fe seems confused to me or I'm failing to understand you properly. You at first said, "Trump does have core Fi values such as patriotism and assimilation." And later, "Fe is everywhere in society trying to force people to conform to social norms and generally accepted principles." I agree with the later, but believe it contradicts the former. Desiring to have people conform to social norms is assimilation. Typically Fe is more focused on the greater good while Fi is more focused on the good for certain individuals or marginalized groups.


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## Entropic

Toroidal said:


> This is going a little bit off topic but okay.
> 
> First those examples are terrible. You can redefine most of those as either Ti or Te depending on your POV. e.g. Schedules could be Ti because it is listing events in sequence A:B:C:E...n or Te because it's required for someone to function with a busy schedule. Likewise bureaucracy can be Ti because it's an hierarchy that is occupied with organization over results. Hence all the DMV jokes. Policy guidelines could be Ti because they want to quantify every detail and variable onto paper. Same with numeric grading.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...life-example-how-they-differ.html#post3740099
> 
> Ti is concerned with making rigid logical structures that explain everything. This is why they are rigid in the first place because they try to account for all variables and situations. Te is concerned with pragmatic application and it's less rigid because it doesn't care about accounting for all the details.
> 
> Almost everything in academia is Ti: the concept of free trade economics, military hegemony, conservative vs. liberal ideology, computer science, abstract math. The one exception is engineering which is Te dominated. Furthermore Ti works with Fe. Fe wants to keep the peace and ensure social harmony. So students are encouraged to not speak out or express ideas that would offend the professor or else they'll get a bad grade. The same is true in the workforce where people need to be careful of saying something that'll get them fired. Likewise on TV and in politics. Fe is everywhere in society trying to force people to conform to social norms and generally accepted principles.
> 
> This is what university ultimately creates, plastic humans injection molded with the latest Ti dogma that need to stay in line and not offend anyone (Fe). Most corporations, the news media and politics then enforce this social norm. @*Entropic* Trump is the exact opposite of all of this. Which is why the media goes crazy with him. He breaks all the Ti/Fe rules. Trump says what he believes (Fi) and does what he wants to do (Te).
> 
> With regards to the ENTP, Anarchism is a create example of a rigid Ti dogma. It's a structure that makes sense in theory however it's completely impractical which is why it's not used in life. Communism and Capitalism both fall into this exact same category too. So yes society is based on Ti. Lastly since the ENTP favors Ti > Fe they'll lean toward Anarchism (or some other Dogma) until Fe develops and balances them.


Which is no offense to Figure since he wrote that post in 2013, but I really think it is misleading to use that post in order to argue your case, especially since I also think his post is by current standards of knowledge and understanding, completely inaccurate. These are much better definitions of Ti:



> We call 'logical' those feelings that arise from the process of comparing one object to another on the basis of some objective criteria — for example, a sense of distance, weight, volume, worth, strength, quality, etc. These are feelings of objective evaluation, which in certain situations help to activate or passivate the person who experiences them. Incoming information is recognized by such an individual as a sense of objects' proper or improper correlation and proportion, a sense of balance or imbalance between the objects, or a sense of understanding or lack of understanding of the advantages of one object over another. This also includes all feelings that result from knowing or not knowing objects and phenomena — curiosity, respect, fear, and a sense of the logicalness or illogicalness of things, as well as a sense of one's own power or powerlessness before different objects.
> All these feelings we shall call logical. Their sum is a person's sense of logic, which is developed to different extents in different people. We might say that logical feelings convey information about presence or lack of knowledge, comparability and incomparability, and the presence or lack of balance between them, as well as about the space and location of object within it. These feelings are called objective because they do not take into consideration the interests and needs of the person him/herself, but only such correlations of objective qualities. This perceptual element determines a person's ability or inability to see the objective, logical relations between objects or their components.
> When this element is in the leading position, the individual is distinguished by his or her ability to logically evaluate relations of the objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also has the ability to change the interrelations between properties of different objects according to his wishes, and through this influence objects themselves as carriers of these properties. Correct evaluation of one's relations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to knowledge of others. He has the ability to mold and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people. This creates a feeling of power when clashing with other people's logic or lack thereof.


Lenore Thomson touches on something similar:



> Introverted Thinking (Ti) makes sense of the world by apprehending it in terms of effects emerging from a cause, or a harmony of elements. For example, the way a beautifully made desk appears to emerge from a single idea. As an epistemological perspective, Ti leads one to trust only things that you understand first-hand for yourself, preferably through direct, hands-on interaction. You must see for yourself how a given thing or subject makes sense. Knowledge must emerge from the concrete reality itself, not from preconceived categories or criteria, and the search for knowledge must follow wherever logic and the subject matter lead, regardless of how people feel about it. As an ethical perspective, Ti leads you to do what is best for the system regardless of reward or gain or social conventions that define right and wrong behavior. For example, the sense of "natural law" that guides Clint Eastwood to do what needs doing in Old West towns regardless of the law.


Ti is about the logical definitions, what logically makes a thing a thing. I think your idea of both Ti and Fe as an axis is very flawed, because Fe isn't about keeping your mouth shut and refusing to speak up when you see injustice. Being conflict-avoidant isn't type-related though if we must make it type-related, then Ne egos, especially IxxPs, are the most likely to be overtly conflict-avoidant. Fe is harmony-seeking only in the same way Te is harmony-seeking by trying to create consensi and standards in the external world; Fe seeks to align emotional atmospheres and expressions in order to let people express themselves the most fully. If anything, Fe is very welcoming to various forms of expressions including disagreements but of course within reason. 

Trump is decidedly not Fi in the actual sense of the word; if he were, he would actually wtf his values are and where he stands on things. Instead he keeps shifting his opinions with the public which funnily _does_ fit what you claim is typical of Fe, which is the desire to create consensus opinion and not allowing dissenting expressions. If he was so much about his own appeals, then why does his opinions change with accordance to what the public finds the most disagreeable? The most obvious case in point is probably the bathroom bill, where he initially expressed very strong anti-LGBTQ sentiments but now he seems to at least in theory, be pro-LGBTQ.


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## Daeva

ESTP So/Sp 8w7


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## Drops of Jupiter

Entropic said:


> Trump is decidedly not Fi in the actual sense of the word; if he were, he would actually wtf his values are and where he stands on things. Instead he keeps shifting his opinions with the public which funnily _does_ fit what you claim is typical of Fe, which is the desire to create consensus opinion and not allowing dissenting expressions. If he was so much about his own appeals, then why does his opinions change with accordance to what the public finds the most disagreeable? The most obvious case in point is probably the bathroom bill, where he initially expressed very strong anti-LGBTQ sentiments but now he seems to at least in theory, be pro-LGBTQ.


Trump is not able to express himself very well. You need to read between the lines with him. I don't believe he shifts his opinions, so much as he doesn't think his personal feelings should be law just because they are his. This again is very Fe. He was quoted as saying, "Look, anything I say right now, I'm not the president. Everything is a suggestion, no matter what you say, it's a suggestion." This statement also implies strong Se usage, because he is showing that he feels comfortable developing a new strategy on his feet. To my eyes Trump seems very sure of his own opinions, but is willing to accept alternative viewpoints. He seems of two minds because of his Enneagram 8 forcefulness in sharing his own opinions.


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## Toroidal

Drops of Jupiter said:


> @*Toroidal* Your understanding of Fe seems confused to me or I'm failing to understand you properly. You at first said, "Trump does have core Fi values such as patriotism and assimilation." And later, "Fe is everywhere in society trying to force people to conform to social norms and generally accepted principles." I agree with the later, but believe it contradicts the former. Desiring to have people conform to social norms is assimilation. Typically Fe is more focused on the greater good while Fi is more focused on the good for certain individuals or marginalized groups.



You are correct, there is a contraction. The problem is Fi is opposed to Te yet they work together. Micheal Pierce describes Te as a tank and Fi as a protester standing in the way. So it's important to understand how they work together.

Fi is aware of how other people make it feel. Using this Fi can put itself in other people's shoes and understand how they feel. Fi is indirect (introverted) empathy while Fe is direct (extraverted) sympathy. (I noticed this myself with how I (ENFP) would never give money to the homeless while my ENTP friend would.) Now when Te kicks in that empathy bridge gets cut off. Te only cares about fulfilling the wishes of Fi and it'll do whatever is necessary to accomplish that. Since Te views the world as malleable, it has no problems crushing everyone and everything in it's way. It's a bulldozer and it's ruthless. This makes sense because the functions have to balance each other out; unchecked Te leads to total devastation (e.g. ENTJ) while unchecked Fi leads to martyrdom (e.g. INFP). In the well-developed user both functions bleed into each other and balance themselves out; they are yin and yang. (this is also why these relationship pairings make sense e.g. ENTJ-INFP or INTJ-ENFP). 

With respect to Trump his Fi has absorbed patriotism. He wants America to be strong and people to be proud of their country. He would prefer if people came to these feelings by themselves (Fi). But if not then Te kicks in and says that if people don't assimilation then they'll cause problems in society and that'll destroy everything. So yes in this sense Fi-Te becomes very similar to Fe-Ti but it's about the motivation, the underlying cognitive functions. To clarify what I said more, you can see still see the Fi in Trump because he wants Germans to be proud of being German, Russians of Russia, Chinese of China, Japanese of Japan, etc vs Fe which wants everyone to be one people with no separation between national identify (particularly in Europe).


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## enneathusiast

Please go argue about Jungian function, MBTI, etc. in the appropriate forum. This is the Enneagram forum. 

It's one thing to include Jungian discussion as part of the Enneagram typing process or to present another angle on type but quite another to argue exclusively about Jungian function and MBTI for 4 pages in a thread that is about Enneagram type. Show some respect for the OP and the intent of the forum please.


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## Toroidal

Entropic said:


> Which is no offense to Figure since he wrote that post in 2013, but I really think it is misleading to use that post in order to argue your case, especially since I also think his post is by current standards of knowledge and understanding, completely inaccurate. These are much better definitions of Ti:
> 
> 
> 
> Lenore Thomson touches on something similar:
> 
> 
> 
> Ti is about the logical definitions, what logically makes a thing a thing. I think your idea of both Ti and Fe as an axis is very flawed, because Fe isn't about keeping your mouth shut and refusing to speak up when you see injustice. Being conflict-avoidant isn't type-related though if we must make it type-related, then Ne egos, especially IxxPs, are the most likely to be overtly conflict-avoidant. Fe is harmony-seeking only in the same way Te is harmony-seeking by trying to create consensi and standards in the external world; Fe seeks to align emotional atmospheres and expressions in order to let people express themselves the most fully. If anything, Fe is very welcoming to various forms of expressions including disagreements but of course within reason.
> 
> Trump is decidedly not Fi in the actual sense of the word; if he were, he would actually wtf his values are and where he stands on things. Instead he keeps shifting his opinions with the public which funnily _does_ fit what you claim is typical of Fe, which is the desire to create consensus opinion and not allowing dissenting expressions. If he was so much about his own appeals, then why does his opinions change with accordance to what the public finds the most disagreeable? The most obvious case in point is probably the bathroom bill, where he initially expressed very strong anti-LGBTQ sentiments but now he seems to at least in theory, be pro-LGBTQ.


I find those Ti definitions horrible. They are very convoluted because other functions are bleeding into the description. e.g. "For example, the *way a beautifully made desk appears to emerge* from a single idea." *is Se*. Both definitions you quoted seem to be heavily biased toward Se/Ni. This probably explains why you like them as an INTJ however are not good definitions IMO. Figure's definition's are some of the best IMO because they strip all other functions away to expose thinking in it's truest form. His definitions are the most pure.

Trump shifts because of led Se. His natural instinct is to tell the crowd what it want's to hear. Coupled with Aux Te makes him very good at adapting. With LGBT issues his core value is pro-gay marriage however he has had to comprise on that to get the rest of his policy position done: securing borders, fighting terrorism, fixing trade deals. Social issues are not as important to him as economic or foreign policy.


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## enneathusiast

Toroidal said:


> I find those Ti definitions horrible. They are very convoluted because other functions are bleeding into the description. e.g. "For example, the *way a beautifully made desk appears to emerge* from a single idea." *is Se*. Both definitions you quoted seem to be heavily biased toward Se/Ni. This probably explains why you like them as an INTJ however are not good definitions IMO. Figure's definition's are some of the best IMO because they strip all other functions away to expose thinking in it's truest form. His definitions are the most pure.
> 
> Trump shifts because of led Se. His natural instinct is to tell the crowd what it want's to hear. Coupled with Aux Te makes him very good at adapting. With LGBT issues his core value is pro-gay marriage however he has had to comprise on that to get the rest of his policy position done: securing borders, fighting terrorism, fixing trade deals. Social issues are not as important to him as economic or foreign policy.


Start another thread in the proper forum for your discussion about Jungian Function!!!! Feel free to provide a link to it in your next post so others can join you who are interested in it.


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## Philathea

I can't see Trump as a Social dom. Everything he says and does points to him lacking awareness of others. Not that So-doms can't make cringe-worthy or controversial statements, but you can tell.. that's where there _attention_ is going, both when they are acting controversial and afterwards. Trump seems truly oblivious until someone says something that hurts his ego, _then_ he gets bothered by public perception, but only then.. 

My 8w7 so/sx friend offends others by being assertive and unapologetic and direct, but not from.. obliviously bulldozing on everyone around him. He is actually fairly careful about these things, because he's _aware_ of them. Don't know how to explain it. I just don't get a very Social feel from Trump. I think the lack of So is what a lot of Republicans find refreshing about him.


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## Toroidal

Philathea said:


> I can't see Trump as a Social dom. Everything he says and does points to him lacking awareness of others. Not that So-doms can't make cringe-worthy or controversial statements, but you can tell.. that's where there _attention_ is going, both when they are acting controversial and afterwards. Trump seems truly oblivious until someone says something that hurts his ego, _then_ he gets bothered by public perception, but only then..
> 
> My 8w7 so/sx friend offends others by being assertive and unapologetic and direct, but not from.. obliviously bulldozing on everyone around him. He is actually fairly careful about these things, because he's _aware_ of them. Don't know how to explain it. I just don't get a very Social feel from Trump. I think the lack of So is what a lot of Republicans find refreshing about him.


I think that is a limited perception of social because it's being completely influenced by political beliefs. From my POV most of the Western World has gotten castrated, we lost the 1st amendment, which is why Trump appears offensive. 

With politics removed, Trump's true social tendencies are clearly visible. He loves putting on a good show or act. He loves being the center of attention. Even if his language, "Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump" he loves getting admiration and respect from other people. I'm not sure about your 8w7 friend but Trump is an ESFP 7w8 so/sx so the Fi/Te axes causes that bulldozer behavior + billionaire that isn't accountable to anyone but himself.


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## Entropic

Toroidal said:


> I find those Ti definitions horrible. They are very convoluted because other functions are bleeding into the description. e.g. "For example, the *way a beautifully made desk appears to emerge* from a single idea." *is Se*. Both definitions you quoted seem to be heavily biased toward Se/Ni. This probably explains why you like them as an INTJ however are not good definitions IMO. Figure's definition's are some of the best IMO because they strip all other functions away to expose thinking in it's truest form. His definitions are the most pure.


If you think those examples are horrible when I know of INTPs that relates to Lenore Thomson's description, then you really just have your own idea of Ti, tbh, which makes your entire assertion about Trump's type flawed since you're not even generally adhering to the agreed upon definitions of what makes Ti Ti.

And actually, Augusta's definition which is the first one I provided, is an ENTP. So it is decidedly not biased towards Se. You should read her Se description to see the difference:



> Perceives information about what might be called objects' "kinetic energy" — for example, information about how organized/mobilized a person is, his physical energy and power, and his ability to make use of his willpower or position and exercise his will in opposition to others'. This perception implies the ability to tell what reserves of "kinetic energy" people have and how useful they can be in getting things done. It defines the individual's ability or inability to exercise his willpower and energy in opposition to the will and energy of other people.
> When this element is in the leading position, the individual possesses exceptional personal force/will. He is a born organizer of anything. He has the ability to mobilize people to achieve a goal and is able to make use of and manage animate and inanimate objects. Is able to work with things (objects) and reproduce almost any objects based on available samples. This is a reflection of his ability to organize material. These people are known for their striving to materialize their will, energy, and power, and for their desire to impose their will on others.


As for Figure's definition, the problem with his definition of Ti is still very colored by his own Te preference. Ti isn't so much A=B=C as he writes, but Ti is more about why A is connected to B and why B is connected to C and how A and C are connected in turn. That is actually very unclear. Instead he focuses on the linearity of progression which is more of a Te thing to do, to focus on the output of thought.

He tries to allude to it by talking about consistency and systems, but Ti isn't so much about fact, for example. If anything, Ti is very prone towards discarding any external facts if it goes against the inner symmetry and consistency of their thoughts. Jung writes how this is one of the more unhealthier qualities of the Ti dom, where the Ti dom is so concerned by their own thinking that when presented with evidence that suggests they are wrong, the Ti dom will simply go and cherrypick the facts that still supports their thinking or worse, dismiss external facts all together in favor of what they claim is true. It's consistent, so therefore it must be right. I've seen this happen a lot with some Ti doms on this forum that choose to rewrite entire typology systems such as the enneagram or the MBTI in favor of their own interpretations of how things are like and suggest that everyone else are simply inaccurate because their interpretation and how it symmetrically lines up in their minds is simply more true, even when there are glaring inconsistencies in their thought, would they align themselves with the agreed upon definitions of what things really are. 

It's a dismissal of Te style of orienting oneself to the logos of the external world. If anything, Te is far more about facts than Ti is. 



> Trump shifts because of led Se. His natural instinct is to tell the crowd what it want's to hear. Coupled with Aux Te makes him very good at adapting. With LGBT issues his core value is pro-gay marriage however he has had to comprise on that to get the rest of his policy position done: securing borders, fighting terrorism, fixing trade deals. Social issues are not as important to him as economic or foreign policy.


I have no idea why you think this is related to Se, but it really isn't. If you are around ESFPs, one thing you'll notice is their desire for a consistent sense of morality which is typical with all Fi egos and Fi types in general. Trump doesn't know where he stands on issues of morality, he doesn't know what he really feels for the LGBTQ. His main demographic, angry white working class men, are overall staunchly against anything LGTBQ; his lifestyle choices being a rich CEO of a multinational company and living the Kardashian life is also staunchly against the LGBTQ. He's not even a candidate for the democrats but he's a Republican. He has zero interest in endorsing the views of the liberal left as a part of his core values. Compare him to Bernie Sanders. Bernie is some Fi type (not sure which, never bothered to look). Hell, even Ted Cruz despite being a Republican, is more consistent in his values than Trump (I'd type Cruz as an ENTJ or similar). 

So that the LGBTQ is in an uproar and pointing out this inconsistency within Trump now that he swung around being against the bathroom bill just to ruffle the Christian right is absolutely correct; if Trump really knew where he stood on his values, he'd actually make choices and hold opinions consistent with his lifestyle, his main demographic and what he actually claims he's supporting. 

And just to be perfectly clear, anyone can have values such as say, being against injustice. Having values isn't Fi-related in itself, but when values begin to pertain to the morality of society, then we are moving towards Fi land and Trump has zero interest nor any real idea of how to improve USA. He can declare" Make America Great Again" how many times he want, but it seems to be fundamentally driven by an Fe desire for external affection and recognition, not because he is intrinsically driven to improve the moral situation of society. Even Hillary Clinton is more Fi than Trump is. She tries though she's utterly terrible at it. 

EDIT: This is the last post I'll write on the subject just to respect enneathusiast's request since I didn't see it prior.


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## Drops of Jupiter

Sorry for the misadventure into cognitive functions, enneathusiast.

Looking at these two definitions of Sx/Sp 7s and 8s from Ocean Moonshine I definitely see where Trump is coming from in it.


*Sexual/Self-pres 7*

The energy of the sexual instinct is, in some ways, at odds with the type Seven fixation. The Seven’s focus is future oriented and outward, away from the inner world, while the sexual variant is instinctual and dwells on the inner self as far as relationships and identity are concerned. This combination can make for a Seven that can be Four-like in many ways. They can have a flamboyant style and be very moody and intense. In relationships, there is often a push-pull quality. They are very attracted to the falling in love part. The buzz and high of that is very stimulating to them, almost drug-like for them. Their problems come when that buzz wears off. They want to recreate it again and again, but they also have a way of becoming attached and sometimes very dependent on their romantic partners. On the down side, they can be very clingy but don’t want at the same time to lose their freedom. When unhealthy, they can be very selfish in these relationships, things become one-sided in a way that favors the interests of the Seven.

The sexual/self-pres Seven’s addictive behavior with relationships can extend to other areas, like music, and performing in general. The rock star image and lifestyle can be attractive to the sexual Seven. Many rock stars are sexual Sevens the buzz they experience from music can be similar to what they experience in relationships. Creativity can also function as a release of frustration from the boredom.

*Sexual/Self-pres 8*

This subtype is a very charismatic. They have a very assertive energy and they demand attention. The lust of the Eight combines with the sexual instinct to make one of the most fiery of the combinations of all of the enneatypes, especially if Seven is the dominant wing. Sexual/self-pres Eights aren't afraid to tell you what they think. The “can do” attitude that the other subtypes have is now intertwined with an outward passionate storm of energy. The sexual/self-pres Eight will be similar to the self-pres/sex Eight with respect to interests and attachment to close friends and family, but the intensity level is augmented. Since the sexual instinct is first, these Eights usually don’t let an opportunity pass by to connect with those they find interesting. They can sense the power in any situation and they like to challenge people. They can enjoy making others react to them, keeping others on their toes, to find out what makes them tick. They are likely to use humor to accomplish this. When sex/self-pres Eights are unbalanced, they are very quick to anger and have a difficult time controlling their impulses.

7 is the rock star or celebrity side of his personality and 8 is the businessman. It's soft of a matter of which comes first, just as @Swordsman of Mana said.


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## Daeva

Drops of Jupiter said:


> Sorry for the misadventure into cognitive functions, enneathusiast.
> 
> Looking at these two definitions of Sx/Sp 7s and 8s from Ocean Moonshine I definitely see where Trump is coming from in it.
> 
> 
> *Sexual/Self-pres 7*
> 
> The energy of the sexual instinct is, in some ways, at odds with the type Seven fixation. The Seven’s focus is future oriented and outward, away from the inner world, while the sexual variant is instinctual and dwells on the inner self as far as relationships and identity are concerned. This combination can make for a Seven that can be Four-like in many ways. They can have a flamboyant style and be very moody and intense. In relationships, there is often a push-pull quality. They are very attracted to the falling in love part. The buzz and high of that is very stimulating to them, almost drug-like for them. Their problems come when that buzz wears off. They want to recreate it again and again, but they also have a way of becoming attached and sometimes very dependent on their romantic partners. On the down side, they can be very clingy but don’t want at the same time to lose their freedom. When unhealthy, they can be very selfish in these relationships, things become one-sided in a way that favors the interests of the Seven.
> 
> The sexual/self-pres Seven’s addictive behavior with relationships can extend to other areas, like music, and performing in general. The rock star image and lifestyle can be attractive to the sexual Seven. Many rock stars are sexual Sevens the buzz they experience from music can be similar to what they experience in relationships. Creativity can also function as a release of frustration from the boredom.
> 
> *Sexual/Self-pres 8*
> 
> This subtype is a very charismatic. They have a very assertive energy and they demand attention. The lust of the Eight combines with the sexual instinct to make one of the most fiery of the combinations of all of the enneatypes, especially if Seven is the dominant wing. Sexual/self-pres Eights aren't afraid to tell you what they think. The “can do” attitude that the other subtypes have is now intertwined with an outward passionate storm of energy. The sexual/self-pres Eight will be similar to the self-pres/sex Eight with respect to interests and attachment to close friends and family, but the intensity level is augmented. Since the sexual instinct is first, these Eights usually don’t let an opportunity pass by to connect with those they find interesting. They can sense the power in any situation and they like to challenge people. They can enjoy making others react to them, keeping others on their toes, to find out what makes them tick. They are likely to use humor to accomplish this. When sex/self-pres Eights are unbalanced, they are very quick to anger and have a difficult time controlling their impulses.
> 
> 7 is the rock star or celebrity side of his personality and 8 is the businessman. It's soft of a matter of which comes first, just as @*Swordsman of Mana* said.


I'm not seeing the relation focus of Sx in Trump, so I raise you with the following from OceanMoonshine:


*Social/Self-pres 8*


This subtype generally has a larger sphere of influence, although they might still be very entrepreneurial. They are likely to be more socially minded than the other subtypes of Eight. They are more aware of group dynamics. The social instinct, when combined with the type Eight fixation, causes an exaggerated awareness of whoever is in control. This often leads these Eights to get involved in politics, or to rise to levels of leadership within their place of business, or within their social organizations. They are also just as likely to oppose the group or the person in charge of it. The self-pres instinct combines with the social to give this subtype a “can do” approach to life, similar to that of the self-pres/soc. The difference is that their scope of interests extends further into the social arena. The soc/self-pres Eight, when unhealthy, can use their awareness of power relations to abuse whatever power they might have.

----------

Trump's focus on making "America great again" comes from the Social instinct, and not from Fe as some claim.
Trump shows plenty of signs of being Sx-last, not in the least him having a 'trophy wife'.


----------



## Darkbloom

This guy is _the most obvious Se and Fe valuing person EVER._
He has zero Fi.
Fe is not about being nice and non controversial, Fe can influence the atmosphere in many different ways, and many Fe users (maybe more combined with Se) pride themselves in being no bullshit, brutally honest, etc. 
If he knew about the functions he'd probably think Fi is one of the dumb ones lol
Why would Te be more aggressive? Maybe in certain situations, but Fe is more expressive, more likely to exaggerate expressions, negative or positive to affect people, make them join the atmosphere.
Fe is not nice. Especially not Beta Fe. It can be, anyone can be nice, rude, selfless, selfish or whatever, but ESTPs definitely aren't defined by niceness and not being aggressive. A common flaw of Se and Fe is that the combination can be overly dramatic and aggressive seemingly just for the sake of it. I'm an ENFJ, sorta dating an ESTP, I know what I'm talking about :fox:
Again,_Fe is not (necessarily) nice or even wannabe/pretend nice_
Even my 70 year old ESFJ grandma has a habit of passive aggressively insulting people and then being like "Can't you handle a joke???", also a big fan of witty comebacks, always encourages people to have them, guess that's her Ne and Ti.
I don't know what more to say other than go read socionics function definitions and quadras, in the end the types are imo the same, only difference is that you're far more likely to get the right result using socionics.

Won't talk about functions anymore though, this is an enneagram thread but had to say this because some ideas floating around this thread are ridiculous.


----------



## enneathusiast

The title of this thread is: *Donald Trump IS type 8w7*

That's the debate. Is he or isn't he that particular Enneagram type. If you want to throw in something else related to the Enneagram like instinct, that's fine.

This has nothing to do with all this dick jousting over who understands the Jungian functions or MBTI better. Start your own thread on that if it gives you a hard-on.

It's extremely disrespectful of people who actually might want to participate in the designated debate. Throwing a passing mention of Enneagram type into a post to pretend you're not hijacking the thread is just a slap in the face as well. This is the third time I've posted something about this.

Note: this post is directed at those who are participating in this activity not anyone in particular.


----------



## Darkbloom

enneathusiast said:


> The title of this thread is: *Donald Trump IS type 8w7*
> 
> That's the debate. Is he or isn't he that particular Enneagram type. If you want to throw in something else related to the Enneagram like instinct, that's fine.
> 
> This has nothing to do with all this dick jousting over who understands the Jungian functions or MBTI better. Start your own thread on that if it gives you a hard-on.
> 
> It's extremely disrespectful of people who actually might want to participate in the designated debate. Throwing a passing mention of Enneagram type into a post to pretend you're not hijacking the thread is just a slap in the face as well. This is the third time I've posted something about this.
> 
> Note: this post is directed at those who are participating in this activity not anyone in particular.


Sorry, didn't really read the whole thread.


If someone wants to respond to my post, they can do that in a separate thread, I am not gonna start that thread however, because I'm not planning on participating in it.
I just wanted to correct the function ideas in this thread.
edit: changed my mind, I'd start it myself but my battery is almost dead :dry:

Edit 2: http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/670106-lets-type-celebrities.html
Don't think he needs abother personal thread)
Meant to make a thread in guess the type but tbh I don't like that subforum


----------



## Toroidal

delete


----------



## Ixim

Moderately Nefarious said:


> This guy is _the most obvious Se and Fe valuing person EVER._
> He has zero Fi.
> Fe is not about being nice and non controversial, Fe can influence the atmosphere in many different ways, and many Fe users (maybe more combined with Se) pride themselves in being no bullshit, brutally honest, etc.
> If he knew about the functions he'd probably think Fi is one of the dumb ones lol
> Why would Te be more aggressive? Maybe in certain situations, but Fe is more expressive, more likely to exaggerate expressions, negative or positive to affect people, make them join the atmosphere.
> Fe is not nice. Especially not Beta Fe. It can be, anyone can be nice, rude, selfless, selfish or whatever, but ESTPs definitely aren't defined by niceness and not being aggressive. A common flaw of Se and Fe is that the combination can be overly dramatic and aggressive seemingly just for the sake of it. I'm an ENFJ, sorta dating an ESTP, I know what I'm talking about :fox:
> Again,_Fe is not (necessarily) nice or even wannabe/pretend nice_
> Even my 70 year old ESFJ grandma has a habit of passive aggressively insulting people and then being like "Can't you handle a joke???", also a big fan of witty comebacks, always encourages people to have them, guess that's her Ne and Ti.
> I don't know what more to say other than go read socionics function definitions and quadras, in the end the types are imo the same, only difference is that you're far more likely to get the right result using socionics.
> 
> Won't talk about functions anymore though, this is an enneagram thread but had to say this because some ideas floating around this thread are ridiculous.


I can't read this anymore.

Fe IS about being nice and imbuing the atmosphere. Fe doesn't have to have its own values though-it most often just takes values from surrounding people. Fe just "surrenders" to outside emotional atmosphere, societal rules and values and takes them as theirs.

Fi IS NOT about being nice(especially if a person in case doesn't feel like being nice). Fi has its values though and it can cling to them even at the cost of a relationship(something Fe can NEVER do-even if then). Fi "seeks" to attain the mastery over the emotions and to use them for their own ends.

Just read Jung(and no, not only the chapter X ffs), ok?


----------



## enneathusiast

Ixim said:


> I can't read this anymore.
> 
> Fe IS about being nice and imbuing the atmosphere. Fe doesn't have to have its own values though-it most often just takes values from surrounding people. Fe just "surrenders" to outside emotional atmosphere, societal rules and values and takes them as theirs.
> 
> Fi IS NOT about being nice(especially if a person in case doesn't feel like being nice). Fi has its values though and it can cling to them even at the cost of a relationship(something Fe can NEVER do-even if then). Fi "seeks" to attain the mastery over the emotions and to use them for their own ends.
> 
> Just read Jung(and no, not only the chapter X ffs), ok?


I'm guessing you missed the post near the top of this page but I'm trying to get this thread back on topic and keep it there. Here's the post quoted for you.



> The title of this thread is: *Donald Trump IS type 8w7*
> 
> That's the debate. Is he or isn't he that particular Enneagram type. If you want to throw in something else related to the Enneagram like instinct, that's fine.
> 
> This has nothing to do with all this dick jousting over who understands the Jungian functions or MBTI better. Start your own thread on that if it gives you a hard-on.
> 
> It's extremely disrespectful of people who actually might want to participate in the designated debate. Throwing a passing mention of Enneagram type into a post to pretend you're not hijacking the thread is just a slap in the face as well. This is the third time I've posted something about this.
> 
> Note: this post is directed at those who are participating in this activity not anyone in particular.


----------



## Darkbloom

Ixim said:


> I can't read this anymore.
> 
> Fe IS about being nice and imbuing the atmosphere. Fe doesn't have to have its own values though-it most often just takes values from surrounding people. Fe just "surrenders" to outside emotional atmosphere, societal rules and values and takes them as theirs.
> 
> Fi IS NOT about being nice(especially if a person in case doesn't feel like being nice). Fi has its values though and it can cling to them even at the cost of a relationship(something Fe can NEVER do-even if then). Fi "seeks" to attain the mastery over the emotions and to use them for their own ends.
> 
> Just read Jung(and no, not only the chapter X ffs), ok?


http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/862650-fe-vs-fi.html


----------



## Ixim

enneathusiast said:


> I'm guessing you missed the post near the top of this page but I'm trying to get this thread back on topic and keep it there. Here's the post quoted for you.


I know, sorry, but I simply couldn't(and yes, I saw that, I am observant enough to notice a post lol). The modern explanations just get to me, see(when there's nothing wrong with the original).


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> I
> 
> Since you probably don't know how things work around here, I will provide some insight: people do not_ flock_.


Bullshit. 

they flock, they pack, they gang up. Groupthink absolutely occurs, and pretty soon we have the won twue weigh of enneagram, and people become disrespectful when newbies don't tag along as they are supposed to be.


----------



## drmiller100

Drops of Jupiter said:


> One would assume he gets along with his ex-wife for the sake of his children. This to me shows his dedication to family is on a more sincere level, not a superficial one. I don't perceive the "being seen as" aspect you're speaking of, but you're right that establishing your brand can very much be Social. In any case I secede my argument, since everyone flocked to your point of view and disregard mine.


I think you are on the right path. Lots of opinions in the world, and you are absolutely entitled to your's, and your's is worth as much as everyone else's.

As someone else, mentioned, welcome to PerC!!! I hope you stick around!!!

Smiles!


----------



## drmiller100

Anywho, IMO it is imposslble to argue Trump is anything other than 8w7. 

He mouths off with his gut reaction, he doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks, and he makes decisions based on his logic. I'd actually argue he is ENTP 8w7 Sp. 

He clearly doesn't really give a shit what he looks like. he does want to help the world, but on his terms. he doesn't give a shit about previous conventions and mores. 

There is not a lick fo a bit of a sense of peace (9), nor does he try to ignore his anger (9). 

There si a 3 flavor, but that is part of being an 8w7. 

To me, his accumulatino of wealth is an Sp thing for 8w7. Obvious Sx in there somewhere also.


----------



## Daeva

drmiller100 said:


> Obvious Sx in there somewhere also.


Obvious how?


----------



## RobynC

drmiller100 said:


> Anywho, IMO it is imposslble to argue Trump is anything other than 8w7.
> 
> He mouths off with his gut reaction, he doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks, and he makes decisions based on his logic. I'd actually argue he is ENTP 8w7 Sp.
> 
> He clearly doesn't really give a shit what he looks like. he does want to help the world, but on his terms. he doesn't give a shit about previous conventions and mores.


He doesn't want to help the world, unless the world is him

On that note, I have wondered if 8's sometimes see family members as extensions of themselves: Can you confirm/deny this


----------



## drmiller100

Sun Daeva said:


> Obvious how?


the drive for new, intense, change. How many businesses? how many wives/gf's? how many different ways to make speeches?

The dude is ancient. He is not an idiot. he is not an alcoholic nor an addict. He is working on growing him, and making him bigger and better all the time. 

There is some So in there, and Some Sx and some Sp. But I think the CORE is Sp with Sx second. He accumulates wealth, then he risks it all to try something new and intense.

Come to think of it, maybe Sx/Sp.

If he were So, he'd be more likely to have done charitable stuff earlier in life.


----------



## drmiller100

RobynC said:


> He doesn't want to help the world, unless the world is him
> 
> On that note, I have wondered if 8's sometimes see family members as extensions of themselves: Can you confirm/deny this


On your first point, why the fuck would anyone healthy or normal want to be president? The job is a huge pita. Look at obama and how sick he looks compared to when he became president. Say what you want, but Trump ain't stupid, and he KNOWS what he is signing up for. I don't think he's doing it for the pension.

re extensions. I think ENTJ and ESTJ's who are 8's do this. there is the Fi going on, buried deep, and I think it manifests itself as you describe.
As an ENTP 8, I'm protective, but I'm also desirous of my family members being powerful in their own right so they are safe. One manifestation of my Fe. 

I really want to be cognizant of the OP's desire this convo revolve around enneagram, not MBTI.


----------



## Daeva

drmiller100 said:


> the drive for new, intense, change. How many businesses? how many wives/gf's? how many different ways to make speeches?


... how is having a need to change things up Sx?

What matters is why he changes things up so often. Is it for personal fortitude (Sp), connections (So), or intimacy of experience (Sx)?

My bet is on _connections_. He *looooooooves* boasting about how he knows people and knows how to negotiate etc.



> The dude is ancient. He is not an idiot. he is not an alcoholic nor an addict. He is working on growing him, and making him bigger and better all the time.


Sp and 8.



> There is some So in there, and Some Sx and some Sp. But I think the CORE is Sp with Sx second. He accumulates wealth, then he risks it all to try something new and intense.
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe Sx/Sp.
> 
> If he were So, he'd be more likely to have done charitable stuff earlier in life.


Sx dominance... where?


----------



## RobynC

@drmiller100



> On your first point, why the fuck would anyone healthy or normal want to be president? The job is a huge pita. Look at obama and how sick he looks compared to when he became president.


No, I want to be the president's advisor or chief of staff: The job's easier and if I fuck up, the president gets the shaft. Plus he's the head, but I'm the neck, I can swing him any way I want (J/K).



> Say what you want, but Trump ain't stupid, and he KNOWS what he is signing up for. I don't think he's doing it for the pension.


Power entirely for it's own sake



> I think ENTJ and ESTJ's who are 8's do this.


Sounds about right



> As an ENTP 8, I'm protective, but I'm also desirous of my family members being powerful in their own right so they are safe. One manifestation of my Fe.


Yeah, I don't want my family to be weak and servile, either, I want them to be vibrant and able to stand on their own two feet against a world that is fascinating, but dangerous and unforgiving at times. Not that I want them to be mean and selfish, but able to assert their boundaries.


----------



## drmiller100

Sun Daeva said:


> ... how is having a need to change things up Sx?
> 
> 
> My bet is on _connections_. He *looooooooves* boasting about how he knows people and knows how to negotiate etc.


We disagree on how the stackings work. I don't think further discussions between the two of us will help this issue.


----------



## drmiller100

RobynC said:


> Yeah, I don't want my family to be weak and servile, either, I want them to be vibrant and able to stand on their own two feet against a world that is fascinating, but dangerous and unforgiving at times. Not that I want them to be mean and selfish, but able to assert their boundaries.


we really have similar viewpoints, right up until............ you mentioned "boundaries." 

to me, I think a 6 teaching their kids boundaries is incredibly healthy, and completely in line with how a healthy 6 would think about the world. to me, a healthy 6 wants to be safe from the world, yet engaged with the world. 

To me, an 8 would say everything you said, except the boundaries. I'm more like to say something like "but able to overcome challenges and difficulties when they need to." Subtle difference, but telling IMO.


----------



## Daeva

drmiller100 said:


> We disagree on how the stackings work. I don't think further discussions between the two of us will help this issue.


You say we disagree on how the stackings work. I'd have to take your word for it, because I have no idea how you view them.

You never expand on your idea of what constitutes an instinct. I don't think anyone on this forum knows why you type people the way you do. It's very frustrating to see you type people, yet also refuse to properly explain why.
I've honestly never met an ENTP before who wouldn't jump on the situation to expand (Ne) on their theories (Ti). You type Trump at ENTP 8w7, possibly Sx dom even, yet you don't see him lacking in words...

I can understand not wanting to explain your view on these things, but then.. why comment in the first place?

Afraid of a challenge?


----------



## Drops of Jupiter

drmiller100 said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> they flock, they pack, they gang up. Groupthink absolutely occurs, and pretty soon we have the won twue weigh of enneagram, and people become disrespectful when newbies don't tag along as they are supposed to be.


Absolutely, and I have usually intuited the social dynamics in a given situation before someone could start to explain it.



drmiller100 said:


> I think you are on the right path. Lots of opinions in the world, and you are absolutely entitled to your's, and your's is worth as much as everyone else's.
> 
> As someone else, mentioned, welcome to PerC!!! I hope you stick around!!!
> 
> Smiles!


Thank you. It's nice to see some genuine social graces.



drmiller100 said:


> the drive for new, intense, change. How many businesses? how many wives/gf's? how many different ways to make speeches?
> 
> The dude is ancient. He is not an idiot. he is not an alcoholic nor an addict. He is working on growing him, and making him bigger and better all the time.
> 
> There is some So in there, and Some Sx and some Sp. But I think the CORE is Sp with Sx second. He accumulates wealth, then he risks it all to try something new and intense.
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe Sx/Sp.
> 
> If he were So, he'd be more likely to have done charitable stuff earlier in life.


It seems you came to my conclusion of Sx/Sp also. I just don't think he cares about his public persona. It's a means to an end for him. I think he's more interested in expansion, as it were, and just uses the media to do that. I wonder if a Social 8 would make so many social faux pas that he loses social credibility in some circles? Perhaps you would know better as a fellow 8w7. 8s are conquerors anyway. I don't think you need the added Social instinct to get the command presence.

I love your TR signature quote, doc.


I thought I would add some brief excepts about Claudio Naranjo's view on the 8s.

8s generally: don't seek self knowledge, gravitate towards cynicism, hardening. Love issues are not accessible. A lot of repression of tenderness & inner child

SX-8 - Anti-social tendency. Rebellious. More provocative than SO, SP. Out front saying "my values are different from the norm". Hysterical, emotional 8. Possession of the scene in total, a little like being the center. Power comes through seductiveness and fascination. Colored feathers.

SO-8 - Punitive in defense of mother. A social anti-social. Example: a mother is abused by husband, the 8 child violently defends mother - it's a violence of solidarity. Ichazo used the word "friendship" for this subtype. Naranjo's word is "complicity". Related to loyalty. Child in example becomes anti-father, therefore anti-school, anti-authority, anti-intellectual. Underneath is something like an oedipus complex - to get mother love. It's hard to see the need for mother beneath the loyalty. Hard to make love-needs conscious (this is true with everyone, but more with this type). Most loyal of the 3 subtypes. The only 8 intellectual is the social 8.

SP-8 - Satisfaction. "It's mine; I have to get it." Intolerance of frustration of desires. Most armed of 8s. Doesn't need to talk too much. Lion only moves when hungry. No nonsense, no word play. Exaggerated selfishness. Know how to do business, bargain, get upper hand over anyone. Survival is the utmost. More action, not talk.

As you said aspects of all three seem to be present, but Sx/Sp makes the most sense to me.


----------



## Animal

Double post. To fill the space:


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> they flock, they pack, they gang up. Groupthink absolutely occurs, and pretty soon we have the won twue weigh of enneagram, and people become disrespectful when newbies don't tag along as they are supposed to be.


With all due respect, I respect and adore you @*drmiller100* - and you know that - but that is NOT what was happening here whatsoever. It was not us being disrespectful or "flocking" - it was @*Drops of Jupiter* CALLING us a flock that was disrespectful. All we were doing was stating our opinions. Not a single person EXPECTED her to agree because she's a n00b. That is coming from outer space, lol. All that I personally ask for is some respect, and being told I'm a flock is not respect. Period. Nobody ever, once, expected her to disagree; and if we did, please point it out. That is a projection or something out of your imagination. Perhaps it has occurred somewhere before, but here, everyone was arguing with everyone. She was no exception. The difference between her and them is that everyone else understood that these were opinions, whereas she chose to interpret it as some kind of groupthink which was also a slight against her.

The only reason I brought up that she was new to the forum was because I wanted to point out that she doesn't know us, so she _cannot possibly know the dynamics between us_ (and clearly she got at least some of those dynamics completely wrong, as I will explain below). I did not mean to imply that because she's new to the forum, she knows less than we do. Anyone could have studied enneagram courses or had tons of other experience outside perc. What I was implying, however, is that she does not know us personally, so her belittling opinion about the relationships between complete strangers was on shaky ground. 



Drops of Jupiter said:


> Absolutely, and I have usually intuited the social dynamics in a given situation before someone could start to explain it.


You called two of the most stubborn people on forum who have never agreed on anything before in their lives a "flock." @*Sun Daeva* and @*mistakenforstranger*, while they agreed here, were simultaneously arguing their butts off here:

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-enneagram-types-fictional-characters-24.html

And have been doing so for days. So obviously they are not a flock.

@*Sun Daeva* is my husband and part of what drew us together is that we SEPARATELY had many similar outlooks, values and opinions on things, including enneagram. We may argue in private, but I'm not about to start a crusade against my husband on a forum; however I also would not feel the need to contribute to a thread unless I had my own strong opinion. 

I am very opinionated (though perhaps not as stubborn as those two, who are arguing all the time). @*mistakenforstranger* and myself argued against each other for about a 100 page thread just a couple weeks ago, here:

http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...n-not-about-uniqueness-its-about-meaning.html

And even called each other names so badly that we felt the need to apologize over several posts and PMs, because we were both SO worked up. We finally found common ground in some ways, though we still continue to disagree on most typings, and we are also still arguing about them on the same thread about fictional characters. The fact that we all agreed on Trump here was an exception.



> Thank you. It's nice to see some genuine social graces.


I will be happy to be nice to you, polite, and enthusiastic about you and give you the "social graces" that you seem to want, if you would do the same. What I mean is, please don't automatically assume people are "flocking" when you don't know them and you don't know what is going on simultaneously between them in other threads; please give people more respect and credit than that. If there is genuine evidence of flocking, I would agree that it is human behavior, but in this case it was just diminishing people for no good reason. So I don't appreciate that.

That said, I do agree your opinion has as much value as anyone's. That doesn't mean I'll automatically agree with it. I have gotten into heated debates with close friends on this forum, who I respect tremendously. A disagreement DOES NOT EQUAL disrespect or your opinion being overlooked; it just means people have their own opinion. And in this case they weren't a flock. Sometimes they will be, but it would be "social graces" to give people the benefit of the doubt, at least until you know them, and you have observed their behavior over time. If you want social graces, you have to be socially graceful.... you know what I'm saying? Treat others as you would want to be treated. Respect their individuality, and they will respect yours. Or, I will, anyway.

I'm not trying to make an enemy here. I am glad you're contributing and I look forward to more posts. I just don't appreciate myself and two other people I know being seen through a completely incorrect, unfounded filter. We were not flocking against you. Nobody here is against you. We just have opinions, that's all.


Also, as a side note, I saw your picture in a picture thread. You are very beautiful.


----------



## Despotic Nepotist

ESTP 8w7 > 3w2 > 6w7 sp/so, maaaaaybe so/sp.

There is no way in fucking hell that he is sp-last. He may have a brash version of Se, but the man's primary mode of operation is the accumulation of wealth and material security.


----------



## Animal

@Despotic Nepotist
I like 6w7 for his head-fix. I've been mulling it over myself.
I also think he's so/sp, though sp/so is a possibility. Sx anywhere in his stack does not strike me as a feasible possibility. But people have already argued about that, so I won't regurgitate. Pretty much anything that I would say has been said already.


----------



## Despotic Nepotist

Animal said:


> @Despotic Nepotist
> I like 6w7 for his head-fix. I've been mulling it over myself.
> I also think he's so/sp, though sp/so is a possibility. Sx anywhere in his stack does not strike me as a feasible possibility. But people have already argued about that, so I won't regurgitate. Pretty much anything that I would say has been said already.


I wrote sp/sx, whoops need to fix that to so/sp lol. (I discussed in another thread a while back.)

I agree, I don't really see the sx in him. I think it's in part because 8s are considered the most intense of the Enneagram types, while sx is associated with intensity and that's where the confusion often comes from.


----------



## Animal

Despotic Nepotist said:


> I wrote sp/sx, whoops need to fix that to so/sp lol.
> 
> I agree, I don't really see the sx in him. I think it's in part because 8s are considered the most intense of the Enneagram types, while sx is associated with intensity and that's where the confusion often comes from.


Yes - his intensity is in his forcefulness and "I don't give a fuck"ness.... but it's not sexual magnetism or charisma. His charm or appeal (to many) lies in his complete lack of charisma, in fact.


----------



## Despotic Nepotist

Animal said:


> Yes - his intensity is in his forcefulness and "I don't give a fuck"ness.... but it's not sexual magnetism or charisma. His charm or appeal (to many) lies in his complete lack of charisma, in fact.


Couldn't have said it better myself. A large part of his appeal lies more in "getting the job done" rather than being personable and charming. Contrast to Bernie Sanders, whom I consider to be a 1w9 so/sx. I think Hillary is a 3w2 so/sp, but she embodies the worst traits of an unhealthy three by trying to hard to be charming. Also contrast to Ted Cruz, a 3w4 so/sx. The way Cruz works seems to be trying to reach a broad audience and identifying himself with a larger coalition of American conservatism (so) while still trying to exert some sort of forceful, raw charisma (sx).


----------



## Philathea

Okay I think I've finally found words for why I don't think Trump is a Social dom (annoying inferior Te taking forever to kick in..)
@Sun Daeva
His So seems childish, poorly expressed, rudimentary.. it doesn't seem _natural_. He may value some Social-y things like his connections and such but nothing about Social seems innate or INSTINCTUAL to him. It feels like these are _values_ he has picked up over his life.. but not necessarily where his natural focus lies. Just like with me valuing relationships, and being Sx-last, or people valuing money but not being Sp-dom, I don't think his focus lies naturally on Social things, even if he has come to value certain Social things that he perceives as valuable or admirable. 

I am going mostly off of vibe here but I can't shake this feeling.. I will be back once my Te kicks in again lol


----------



## drmiller100

Drops of Jupiter said:


> SX-8 - Anti-social tendency. Rebellious. More provocative than SO, SP. Out front saying "my values are different from the norm". Hysterical, emotional 8. Possession of the scene in total, a little like being the center. Power comes through seductiveness and fascination. Colored feathers.
> 
> SO-8 - Punitive in defense of mother. A social anti-social. Example: a mother is abused by husband, the 8 child violently defends mother - it's a violence of solidarity. Ichazo used the word "friendship" for this subtype. Naranjo's word is "complicity". Related to loyalty. Child in example becomes anti-father, therefore anti-school, anti-authority, anti-intellectual. Underneath is something like an oedipus complex - to get mother love. It's hard to see the need for mother beneath the loyalty. Hard to make love-needs conscious (this is true with everyone, but more with this type). Most loyal of the 3 subtypes. The only 8 intellectual is the social 8.
> 
> .


Interesting quotes you give. the nuances of stackings within the types escape me - too confusing for me, and I've never understood the interelationship very well. I only know them to separate them. I can see interrelations, just like I can see interrelations between MBTI and enneagram. 

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I'm an 8w7. I read the three stackings, and Sx screamed my identity. Sp had NOTHING for me. So was like "meh". 
Now your quotes.......... the Sx is me.
I have mother issues. Not Oedipus. None the less, mother issues affect my life, and I'm understanding them still. But the depth of the intertwining is not there for me. To me, social means i want to change the world to make it a better place, especially for those two young to make their own decisions yet. But I want to have new and fun and sex first. once that is fulfilled, then save the innocents fo the world. 

Intellectual I found humorous. I think many 8's can be intellectual. We don't VALUE intellectualism, nor elitism, despise the pompous, own being arrogant ourselves. But we DO have a strong connection to 5, and learning is easy for most of us. Some of us even make a living doing it..........


----------



## Daeva

Philathea said:


> Okay I think I've finally found words for why I don't think Trump is a Social dom (annoying inferior Te taking forever to kick in..)
> @*Sun Daeva*
> His So seems childish, poorly expressed, rudimentary.. it doesn't seem _natural_. He may value some Social-y things like his connections and such but nothing about Social seems innate or INSTINCTUAL to him. It feels like these are _values_ he has picked up over his life.. but not necessarily where his natural focus lies. Just like with me valuing relationships, and being Sx-last, or people valuing money but not being Sp-dom, I don't think his focus lies naturally on Social things, even if he has come to value certain Social things that he perceives as valuable or admirable.
> 
> I am going mostly off of vibe here but I can't shake this feeling.. I will be back once my Te kicks in again lol


Yeah, I see what you're saying. His whole take on Social might be more Social in service of Self Pres, as in, "negotiating" for gain.

I can see either So/Sp or Sp/So for the man, honestly. I'll have to think some more on those two as well.

... but Sx dom.. I really can't see it


----------



## drmiller100

Philathea said:


> I am going mostly off of vibe here but I can't shake this feeling..



Sounds legit. Ouija board anyone?


----------



## Philathea

drmiller100 said:


> Sounds legit. Ouija board anyone?


My intuition never fails..

(^*Blatant* lie :tongue


----------



## Animal

Philathea said:


> Okay I think I've finally found words for why I don't think Trump is a Social dom (annoying inferior Te taking forever to kick in..)
> @*Sun Daeva*
> His So seems childish, poorly expressed, rudimentary.. it doesn't seem _natural_. He may value some Social-y things like his connections and such but nothing about Social seems innate or INSTINCTUAL to him. It feels like these are _values_ he has picked up over his life.. but not necessarily where his natural focus lies. Just like with me valuing relationships, and being Sx-last, or people valuing money but not being Sp-dom, I don't think his focus lies naturally on Social things, even if he has come to value certain Social things that he perceives as valuable or admirable.
> 
> I am going mostly off of vibe here but I can't shake this feeling.. I will be back once my Te kicks in again lol


Hm..
Maybe a good way to look at it, would be through the "which one is the neurosis and which one is just missing?" lens.

To my eye, Sx is just missing.

Soc... is it missing? Or is it neurotic?

What about Sp?

(I am not sold on one conclusion or the other, but just pointing out a way that we might consider this.)

Supposedly the middle instinct is smooth, the first is neurotic and obsessed over, and the last is just ignored.

For me it doesn't work. Sp and Soc are not big problems for me but Sx is a huge pile of neurosis. It's arguable that I ignore one of the other two and don't even realize it.

But I'd say it's pretty fair to claim he ignores Sx. He has trophy wives.. he is more focused on "lots of people..." he lacks that sexual charisma that Danzig has (a Sx/So 8). Or even Muhammad Ali, who is either Sx/So or So/Sx 8. Or MLK, Soc/Sx 8w9 probably...

He's a lot more abrupt, not really "connected" in the sense of Sx. That's my impression anyway.

So the question is , which one is the neurosis?


----------



## Philathea

Animal said:


> Hm..
> Maybe a good way to look at it, would be through the "which one is the neurosis and which one is just missing?" lens.
> 
> To my eye, Sx is just missing.
> 
> Soc... is it missing? Or is it neurotic?
> 
> What about Sp?
> 
> (I am not sold on one conclusion or the other, but just pointing out a way that we might consider this.)
> 
> *Supposedly the middle instinct is smooth, the first is neurotic and obsessed over, and the last is just ignored.*
> 
> For me it doesn't work. Sp and Soc are not big problems for me but Sx is a huge pile of neurosis. It's arguable that I ignore one of the other two and don't even realize it.
> 
> But I'd say it's pretty fair to claim he ignores Sx. He has trophy wives.. he is more focused on "lots of people..." he lacks that sexual charisma that Danzig has (a Sx/So 8). Or even Muhammad Ali, who is either Sx/So or So/Sx 8. Or MLK, Soc/Sx 8w9 probably...
> 
> He's a lot more abrupt, not really "connected" in the sense of Sx. That's my impression anyway.
> 
> So the question is , which one is the neurosis?


It doesn't work for me either. Sx is last in my stacking.. but it is certainly not ignored. I am more naturally focused and _reactive_ when it comes to Social things, and I have lots of insecurity in this area, but I have just as much insecurity regarding Sx, though for different reasons. (And Sp, I don't even know what that it is or how it manifests in me, it may as well not exist lol.) So I don't know if the instincts 'flow' that cleanly, like stairsteps, but I think everyone can agree that your dominant instinct will be your MAIN focus and where the neurosis naturally lies. As for Trump.. I really can't say for sure.


----------



## drmiller100

Animal said:


> W
> It was not us being disrespectful or "flocking" -
> us a flock that was disrespectful.
> 
> she doesn't know us, so she _cannot possibly know the dynamics between us_ (and clearly she got at least some of those dynamics completely wrong, as I will explain below). she does not know us personally,
> 
> We were not flocking against you.



Who do you consider "us", and "we" when you speak for your group?

Bringing this back around, I consider myself an 8w7 Sx. I stick sacred cows. Packs of people with groupthink pretty well guarantee I'm gonna speak up about my opinion, even if it pisses everyone off. I'm gonna tell you what I think, and don't really care a whole lot about the social consequences. 

I think Trump is damn similar.


----------



## Daeva

drmiller100 said:


> Who do you consider "us", and "we" when you speak for your group?
> 
> Bringing this back around, I consider myself an 8w7 Sx. I stick sacred cows. Packs of people with groupthink pretty well guarantee I'm gonna speak up about my opinion, even if it pisses everyone off. I'm gonna tell you what I think, and don't really care a whole lot about the social consequences.
> 
> I think Trump is damn similar.


Ugh. The only "group" she has is me, and I'm her husband.

No one here was "grouping up." People agree and disagree left and right. It's a forum. Discussion happens. You're not pissing anyone off, you're only making something out of nothing.


----------



## Animal

Philathea said:


> It doesn't work for me either. Sx is last in my stacking.. but it is certainly not ignored. I am more naturally focused and _reactive_ when it comes to Social things, and I have lots of insecurity in this area, but I have just as much insecurity regarding Sx, though for different reasons. (And Sp, I don't even know what that it is or how it manifests in me, it may as well not exist lol.) So I don't know if the instincts 'flow' that cleanly, like stairsteps, but I think everyone can agree that your dominant instinct will be your MAIN focus and where the neurosis naturally lies. As for Trump.. I really can't say for sure.


Yeah.. I definitely pay more attention to Sp than Soc. I don't know if that means I'm lacking in that area and compensating (thus Sx/So), or it just means that it's my crutch that I need in order to deal with my Sx (thus Sx/Sp). I do idealize Sp a lot more; the idea of being totally autonomous, self-sufficient etc, is very appealing to me, and even tends to conflict with my ideal of being with my soulmate. (Now that I'm with him though, it's not a choice or a conflict, but up until we met it plagued me that I might ahve to give up my solo walks, my writing, my music, any chance to just go off and do things alone without having to explain, etc..) ... meanwhile Soc is something I don't think about, but I usually have friends (though they are always mad at me that I forgot to call and so forth).


About Trump... I'm going to think about it more. He's so crazy in general lol.. it's hard to pinpoint what the actual neurosis is, though 8 really works.


----------



## Animal

drmiller100 said:


> Who do you consider "us", and "we" when you speak for your group?
> 
> Bringing this back around, I consider myself an 8w7 Sx. I stick sacred cows. Packs of people with groupthink pretty well guarantee I'm gonna speak up about my opinion, even if it pisses everyone off. I'm gonna tell you what I think, and don't really care a whole lot about the social consequences.
> 
> I think Trump is damn similar.


Lol. She disrespected several people, that's why I said "we" - because it happened to a few people including myself, not because we're a group or a pack. Like I demonstrated, we disagree very often with the third party in your supposed "group."

Anyway, I love you for speaking up about your opinion. Always will. I don't think much about consequences either, you know. I just say what I think as well. And I did. 

But yeah, Trump is over the top with that. He is really THE BEST symbol of "I don't give a flying fuck." 



Sun Daeva said:


> Ugh. The only "group" she has is me, and I'm her husband.
> 
> No one here was "grouping up." People agree and disagree left and right. It's a forum. Discussion happens. You're not pissing anyone off, you're only making something out of nothing.


^ Exactly.

I agree with everything you say. You are perfect. You are my 'group.' Awwwwwwwwww. How offensive. Everyone will hate us now.


----------



## Scarlet Eyes

8w7 fits perfectly for Trump. I could see 7w8 too, but honestly, those are the only valid guesses for his Enneagram. 

His instincts on the other hand, are dodgy. At first, I thought he was an SX-dom. But I'm starting to lean to SX-last because it _does_ seem too...forced. He has charisma, but it isn't the _attractive_ kind of charisma. Sure, SX-doms can both repel and attract, yet it probably is his dominant Se and core 8 that makes him appear SX-dom. 

Regarding that, I'm inclined to say So/Sp. For all his abrasiveness, you got to give him credit. He capitalized on the anti-PCness boiling under the country, and used that to further his political agenda.


----------



## Daeva

Animal said:


> ^ Exactly.
> 
> I agree with everything you say. You are perfect. You are my 'group.' Awwwwwwwwww. How offensive. Everyone will hate us now.


It's just so _*offensive* _that we thank each others posts.


----------



## knife

It's the unpredictable ones that are the most interesting!

...well, those and the horny hornballs. :tongue:


----------



## Drops of Jupiter

Animal said:


> Lol. She disrespected several people, that's why I said "we" - because it happened to a few people including myself, not because we're a group or a pack. Like I demonstrated, we disagree very often with the third party in your supposed "group."
> 
> Anyway, I love you for speaking up about your opinion. Always will. I don't think much about consequences either, you know. I just say what I think as well. And I did.
> 
> But yeah, Trump is over the top with that. He is really THE BEST symbol of "I don't give a flying fuck."
> 
> 
> ^ Exactly.
> 
> I agree with everything you say. You are perfect. You are my 'group.' Awwwwwwwwww. How offensive. Everyone will hate us now.


Since you won't stop talking about me you are both getting put on ignore until you can learn how to be civil and act like proper human beings.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> You called two of the most stubborn people on forum who have never agreed on anything before in their lives a "flock." @*Sun Daeva* and @*mistakenforstranger*, while they agreed here, were simultaneously arguing their butts off here:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enneagra...-enneagram-types-fictional-characters-24.html
> 
> And have been doing so for days. So obviously they are not a flock.
> 
> @*Sun Daeva* is my husband and part of what drew us together is that we SEPARATELY had many similar outlooks, values and opinions on things, including enneagram. We may argue in private, but I'm not about to start a crusade against my husband on a forum; however I also would not feel the need to contribute to a thread unless I had my own strong opinion.
> 
> I am very opinionated (though perhaps not as stubborn as those two, who are arguing all the time). @*mistakenforstranger* and myself argued against each other for about a 100 page thread just a couple weeks ago, here:
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-f...n-not-about-uniqueness-its-about-meaning.html
> 
> And even called each other names so badly that we felt the need to apologize over several posts and PMs, because we were both SO worked up. We finally found common ground in some ways, though we still continue to disagree on most typings, and we are also still arguing about them on the same thread about fictional characters. The fact that we all agreed on Trump here was an exception.


Haha, I didn't realize I was part of the "flock," but in this case I suppose I was, which is hilariously ironic considering, as you say, how I've disagreed with you and @*Sun Daeva* on practically every typing of a celebrity or character we've discussed so far. To think that Trump's typing would be the one that we would come together on! He did say he was a "unifier." :laughing:






Even if @*Drops of Jupiter *perceived "flocking" and was "wrong" about it here, it does occur, and I've even been one to point it out myself in other threads. Nothing says I'm (or anyone) is right or wrong in thinking this, but I have felt that sense a few times before, so I'm not offended by her also thinking so. It can feel very frustrating when no one listens, or only just feels like no one listens or considers your point of view. 

As far as Trump's stacking, I do think sx-first (which I did think coming into this thread) isn't right, so I have appreciated your input in making me reconsider it. It's hard to pin this down if we're only looking at him as he presents himself in the political arena this election year. Of course then he's going to look social, or present himself as a "unifier," "good with people," or a "great negotiator." Those are qualities that will help him get elected, and would want to stress to the public, but is it the truth? It might be, but Trump is a lot of show. How is he in his personal relationships? How was he in the past? I don't know enough about Trump or really even care to find out. At least almost all of us agree he's 8w7, and I think that's very clear from the outside.


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> Haha, I didn't realize I was part of the "flock," but in this case I suppose I was, which is hilariously ironic considering, as you say, how I've disagreed with you and @*Sun Daeva* on practically every typing of a celebrity or character we've discussed so far. To think that Trump's typing would be the one that we would come together on! He did say he was a "unifier." :laughing:


Exactly. And I don't appreciate our agreement being reduced to 'flocking' or 'ignoring her.' That's why I pointed out that she did not know any of us, and disagreements happen on this forum, it's nothing against her personally. She made it about a "collective" who was "overlooking _her_" rather than being about our opinions as individuals. In fact it wasn't about her, or about each other, at all. It was about Trump. The "unifer" indeed. roud:



> Even if @*Drops of Jupiter *perceived "flocking" and was "wrong" about it here, it does occur, and I've even been one to point it out myself in other threads. Nothing says I'm (or anyone) is right or wrong in thinking this, but I have felt that sense a few times before, so I'm not offended by her also thinking so. It can feel very frustrating when no one listens, or only just feels like no one listens or considers your point of view.


You have never considered my point of view on Bowie being a 3. Or many other characters or actors. Has it occurred to you that it might feel frustrating to others that YOU never budge on some of your opinions, or does that apply only to me and whoever happens to agree with me? :happy:

Of course flocking does occur. But it wasn't occurring here. Since we pointed out her error of judgment, now she claims it is my husband and I who are not being civil or even_ acting like proper human beings._ So let me get this straight.. pointing out that an insult to our characters was unfounded is _sub-human_... but it is perfectly proper and human to accuse people she doesn't know of "flocking" and "ignoring her opinion?" If that's what being human means, I'll stick to my home planet. :ninja:



> As far as Trump's stacking, I do think sx-first (which I did think coming into this thread) isn't right, so I have appreciated your input in making me reconsider it. It's hard to pin this down if we're only looking at him as he presents himself in the political arena this election year. Of course then he's going to look social, or present himself as a "unifier," "good with people," or a "great negotiator." Those are qualities that will help him get elected, and would want to stress to the public, but is it the truth? It might be, but Trump is a lot of show. How is he in his personal relationships? How was he in the past? I don't know enough about Trump or really even care to find out. At least almost all of us agree he's 8w7, and I think that's very clear from the outside.


Yeah.. I'm going to consider sp/so or so/sp. The question is, which instinct is serving which? But him being soc last OR Sp last are both off. I don't see how either of those could be "ignored" with him.


----------



## angelfish

Absolutely 7 and 8. I always considered him 8w7 - never thought of 7w8. But that's reasonable. I see why. For these sorts of things I go hunting out distinguishing information.



Enneagram Institute said:


> Misidentifying Sevens and Eights
> Sevens and Eights are both aggressive types (PT, 433-36) and can resemble each other in certain respects. Both are powerful personalities who are able to go after what they want in life, but what they want, and how they attempt to get it, are different.
> 
> Sevens are primarily interested in variety–they want to sample as many different experiences as possible and become practical in as much as their practicality gives them the means to pursue the experiences they want to try.
> 
> Eights, by contrast, are more interested in intensity–they care less about variety than about having intense experiences that they enjoy. Eights are also interested in power, both as a way to maintain their independence and as a way of asserting their dominance in the environment. Sevens are not particularly interested in having power, seeing the work necessary to maintain it as possibly infringing on their freedom.
> 
> Eights are an Instinctive type, and as such, make decisions from their “gut” instincts. They prefer dealing with practical matters, and although emotionally volatile at times, generally remain grounded and down to earth. Sevens are Thinking types, and can have brilliant, quick minds. At the same time, Sevens can get ahead of themselves with their plans, schemes, and interests: they can have trouble staying grounded and on track with their projects. Sevens see themselves as idealistic optimists, while Eights see themselves as hard-nosed realists. Compare Sevens Mike Myers and Goldie Hawn with Eights Danny DeVito and Roseanne Barr.


I think Trump errs to 8 given this description. 



Enneagram Worldwide said:


> Types 7 and 8
> 
> What’s similar: Epicures (7) and Protectors (8) are each other’s wings. Both are self-assertive, express their wants and desires, believe in their own power and ability, resist limits and controls, and are pleasure-oriented. They have high energy and little inner restraining force.
> 
> What’s different: Epicures avoid pain, explain away or rationalize difficulties, escape conflicts and go into future planning. In contrast, Protectors accept pain, engage in difficulties, confront conflicts directly and live mostly in the present.


Here's where it gets a little complicated. 

My best guess right now is that I think Trump is an 8w7 with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Trump does live in the present and certainly is no stranger to conflict - but he avoids ever letting anyone see that he is "less than" in either way - to the extent that I think he himself genuinely believes that he really is the best at everything. I believe that exacerbates the 7 side of him, freeing it to play uninhibited and unafraid. But at core, he seems more 8 than 7. More pushing than running. More aggression than play.

As for IV... another interesting thing about the Donald is how truly malleable his claims and positions are. He is all self and ego and bluster on the outside, but in a way he actually sort of absorbs opinions from his environments. They're strong opinions, presented strongly, but they're actually group-derived. Anyway, I don't get sx out of him - little intimacy, little magnetism, little fluidity, little darkness. 

I've always seen him typed sp/so, but I think a good argument could be made for so/sp. That said, going by neurosis, I think sp-dom would win out.

8w7 sp/so.


----------



## angelfish

*I think there is also something sp/so about his frankness. So/sp tends to have better polish, to come across more smoothly. There is a particular sp/so bluntness - a very very straightforwardness - that I think is quite characteristic in Trump.


----------



## Animal

angelfish said:


> *I think there is also something sp/so about his frankness. So/sp tends to have better polish, to come across more smoothly. There is a particular sp/so bluntness - a very very straightforwardness - that I think is quite characteristic in Trump.


I know that not everyone buys into this theory, and I'm not sure how much stock to put into it, but...

Have you seen this?

Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings

Specifically, this part:



> *Flow of Instinctual Energies & Compatibility
> 
> When we invest our energy, most of it is devoted to fulfillment of our primary instinct. The remaining energy radiates or flows onto the secondary instinct and finally onto the last instinct, which receives the smallest share. There are two possible configurations or directions for this flow. In first configuration, energy is invested in the order of sx→sp→so→sx. This direction gives rise to three stackings: sx/sp, sp/so, so/sx. In the second configuration, energy is invested in the order of sx→so→sp→sx, which gives rise to the other three stackings: sx/so, so/sp and sp/sx.
> 
> Syn-flow: sp → so → sx → sp
> Stackings involved: sp/so → so/sx → sx/sp → sp/so
> Direction: Compelled toward people. Acting upon and with others as a born insider i.e.- deeply human.
> 
> Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
> Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
> Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.
> 
> The two flows move in the opposite directions. This antithesis can be seen if the instinctual stackings are compared in pairs:
> 
> so/sx - including, associating, affiliating, networking, incorporating, interconnecting, introducing, unifying, linking, bonding, annexing, cooperating, receiving
> sx/so - excluding, eliminating, dividing, separating, contradicting, subverting, confronting, rebuffing, ridiculing, challenging, interrupting, reforming, rupturing
> 
> sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting
> sp/sx - dulling, calming, quieting, grounding, descending, lowering, dampening, numbing, desensitizing, exhausting, deadening, extinguishing, making still
> 
> sp/so - conserving, protecting, maintaining, preserving, supplying, repairing, sustaining, stewarding
> so/sp - utilizing, employing, implementing, expending, exercising, spending, capitalizing, expropriating
> 
> *


If there is any truth to this, I'd assume Trump would have to be contra-flow, which would mean So/Sp. @Philathea you might find this interesting too, since you are So/Sp yourself.. maybe you have thoughts on its merit or demerit?


----------



## Philathea

Animal said:


> I know that not everyone buys into this theory, and I'm not sure how much stock to put into it, but...
> 
> Have you seen this?
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings
> 
> Specifically, this part:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is any truth to this, I'd assume Trump would have to be contra-flow, which would mean So/Sp. @Philathea you might find this interesting too, since you are So/Sp yourself.. maybe you have thoughts on its merit or demerit?


I remember coming across this and thinking it was _extremely_ insightful.. back when I typed at So/Sx. =/

Looking back over my life I would probably seem more contra flow, mostly because I was the demon child from hell (my poor parents) but I have always felt 'deeply human'.. different from others, and worse than others, but still human. This is probably very unrelated lol but it reminds me of how I like movies where humans and aliens meet in some way, invasion or otherwise, but it's clear that humans are.. morally better. I don't like when humans are portrayed as inferior somehow, because I always feel.." No, there's something SPECIAL about humans, I _know_ there is!" 

I do relate strongly to 'rejecting the human condition', but I think for unrelated, Fi reasons. Throughout my life I have come across people or even fictional characters that I perceive as false, cowardly, weak.. and everyone around me said this was normal, you can't expect anything more from people, they're only human. But I don't agree. That isn't true, and it isn't me. I would never be that person, I would never stoop that low. If that was 'only human', then I am not human. 
But that is the only sense in which I can relate to that. Otherwise, I think I am very syn-flow in general. So, over-all, I don't put much stock in it.

EDIT: Also, syn-flow descriptions in general sound a bit attachment type, and I'd bet they're more likely to relate to it. And I personally have both 6 and 9 in my tritype; that may be why I find it more relateable.


----------



## Animal

Philathea said:


> I remember coming across this and thinking it was _extremely_ insightful.. back when I typed at So/Sx. =/
> 
> Looking back over my life I would probably seem more contra flow, mostly because I was the demon child from hell (my poor parents) but I have always felt 'deeply human'.. different from others, and worse than others, but still human. This is probably very unrelated lol but it reminds me of how I like movies where humans and aliens meet in some way, invasion or otherwise, but it's clear that humans are.. morally better. I don't like when humans are portrayed as inferior somehow, because I always feel.." No, there's something SPECIAL about humans, I _know_ there is!"
> 
> I do relate strongly to 'rejecting the human condition', but I think for unrelated, Fi reasons. Throughout my life I have come across people or even fictional characters that I perceive as false, cowardly, weak.. and everyone around me said this was normal, you can't expect anything more from people, they're only human. But I don't agree. That isn't true, and it isn't me. I would never be that person, I would never stoop that low. If that was 'only human', then I am not human.
> But that is the only sense in which I can relate to that. Otherwise, I think I am very syn-flow in general. So, over-all, I don't put much stock in it.
> 
> EDIT: Also, syn-flow descriptions in general sound a bit attachment type, and I'd bet they're more likely to relate to it. And I personally have both 6 and 9 in my tritype; that may be why I find it more relateable.


That's interesting - I think about it the opposite way. Like in the movies "Avatar" or "District 9" - argue what you want about how corny Avatar is, or how both plots are almost the same.. but when it comes to the principle of the thing, I agree with them. Humans are destructive, xenophobic, intolerant, counter-productive. I love people on an individual basis, and I respect people on an individual basis by default (I also am more than willing to "point out" when someone DISRESPECTS me or others by default, without knowing anything about me or that person) .... but I hate the way humans form groups and those groups turn against other groups and then we have war, and famine & poverty (which is a form of violence), and slavery... all for the benefit of a few assholes sitting on the top of some throne collecting something from it. I find most people's voting choices, willful blindness to the truth, etc... completely insane and counter-productive. I can't believe that we had the money to go to the moon 50 years ago, and now we have done nothing more and wasted most of our money on fighting against each other. What is wrong with this race?? Therefore I do tend to feel like if there is an alien species somewhere who would be able to find us and comprehend what we do, they would shake their heads and say to each other in their language "These people have the mental capacity for space travel and they waste it on wars against their own species. Why?"

It's a fundamental flaw in human nature. I sometimes don't feel like part of this race, but other times I can acknowledge my own flaw and how it's shared with other humans, and that makes me sick.

Yet I'm known to be one of the most loving, tolerant friends. I am the first person to help a loved one who is abused, help them with addiction, listen to their woes when they cheated on someone or made a terrible mistake (without condoning it, but without rejecting them as a person... ) yet I can see the major flaw in the race AS A WHOLE and it's hard to forgive. Maybe that's just being social last, or having 8 and 5 in my tritype; both rejection types.. I don't know.


That said, I do agree with you about the "That's normal" bit. when people say things like "All men are pigs" I calmly list 20 men I know who aren't pigs at all, and I tell them that writing it off as "boys will be boys" is just a man's way of excusing his horrible behavior, or a woman's way of excusing it so she can continue staying with him and allowing his shit to continue. (Same goes for women's bullshit as well, but that's just an example.)


Edit: @Philathea @Scarlet Eyes
Here's a good example of what's wrong with this culture: People are so offended by PDA. Several people have complained that my husband and I thank each other's posts all the time. In person, people complain that we are affectionate in public. Yet, nobody complains about public displays of indifference toward other people; that is just the norm. I don't know how this works in other cultures, but the fact that a culture that considers itself progressive and tolerant has such values, is pretty sickening.... and very few people actually stop and notice such things. They just take it for granted.


----------



## Philathea

Animal said:


> That's interesting - I think about it the opposite way. Like in the movies "Avatar" or "District 9" - argue what you want about how corny Avatar is, or how both plots are almost the same.. but when it comes to the principle of the thing, I agree with them. Humans are destructive, xenophobic, intolerant, counter-productive. I love people on an individual basis, and I respect people on an individual basis by default (I also am more than willing to "point out" when someone DISRESPECTS me or others by default, without knowing anything about me or that person) .... but I hate the way humans form groups and those groups turn against other groups and then we have war, and famine & poverty (which is a form of violence), and slavery... all for the benefit of a few assholes sitting on the top of some throne collecting something from it. I find most people's voting choices, willful blindness to the truth, etc... completely insane and counter-productive. I can't believe that we had the money to go to the moon 50 years ago, and now we have done nothing more and wasted most of our money on fighting against each other. What is wrong with this race?? Therefore I do tend to feel like if there is an alien species somewhere who would be able to find us and comprehend what we do, they would shake their heads and say to each other in their language "These people have the mental capacity for space travel and they waste it on wars against their own species. Why?"
> 
> It's a fundamental flaw in human nature. I sometimes don't feel like part of this race, but other times I can acknowledge my own flaw and how it's shared with other humans, and that makes me sick.
> 
> Yet I'm known to be one of the most loving, tolerant friends. I am the first person to help a loved one who is abused, help them with addiction, listen to their woes when they cheated on someone or made a terrible mistake (without condoning it, but without rejecting them as a person... ) yet I can see the major flaw in the race AS A WHOLE and it's hard to forgive. Maybe that's just being social last, or having 8 and 5 in my tritype; both rejection types.. I don't know.
> 
> 
> That said, I do agree with you about the "That's normal" bit. when people say things like "All men are pigs" I calmly list 20 men I know who aren't pigs at all, and I tell them that writing it off as "boys will be boys" is just a man's way of excusing his horrible behavior, or a woman's way of excusing it so she can continue staying with him and allowing his shit to continue. (Same goes for women's bullshit as well, but that's just an example.)


(Had a lot of trouble wording this, will be back once I can.. grasp what I'm trying to say better)

That's funny.. I do agree mostly. I just sort of see things the other way around. I do see people collectively as selfish, but despite being continually surprised and disappointed by, and massively judging, the majority of humans around me, I still have an optimistic view of people- Because I know of all the good they are CAPABLE of.. even while I also know all the bad. So yeah, I disagree with the point of those movies. I feel they are emphasizing the wrong thing. Sure, humans can be selfish, cruel, terrible.. but they can also be so good. I just can't even paint the whole race as "mostly" bad (even though I believe that), because I value the human spirit so strongly, and I so strongly believe that anyone, at any moment, can do what is right.. 

Individually, I am disappointed by people. My family, my friends, and even during darker times, myself.. I feel like people are selfish, and self-justifying. But I know how much good they are capable of. I know anyone can change. So I remain.. optimistic about humans.


----------



## Animal

Philathea said:


> (Had a lot of trouble wording this, will be back once I can.. grasp what I'm trying to say better)
> 
> That's funny.. I do agree mostly. I just sort of see things the other way around. I do see people collectively as selfish, but despite being continually surprised and disappointed by, and massively judging, the majority of humans around me, I still have an optimistic view of people- Because I know of all the good they are CAPABLE of.. even while I also know all the bad. So yeah, I disagree with the point of those movies. I feel they are emphasizing the wrong thing. Sure, humans can be selfish, cruel, terrible.. but they can also be so good. I just can't even paint the whole race as "mostly" bad (even though I believe that), because I value the human spirit so strongly, and I so strongly believe that anyone, at any moment, can do what is right..
> 
> Individually, I am disappointed by people. My family, my friends, and even during darker times, myself.. I feel like people are selfish, and self-justifying. But I know how much good they are capable of. I know anyone can change. So I remain.. optimistic about humans.


Yeah.. I am still not completely sure if I'm Sx/So or Sx/Sp, but if I am Sx/Sp, it could probably explain our difference here. It seems like you are optimistic about humanity, and more centered in feeling like _humanity is special_ and there's something about the species that makes it special compared to others (how 4ish) while I feel like I am special and stand out from humanity (along with a few of my close connections, or "people like me" or "people from my planet") ... (how 4ish too)... 

But we both place our optimism in a different place - you on Soc (even if you also struggle to feel part of it) and me on Sx (even if I also struggle to feel seen for who I am). Yet being Sx last you feel disappointed in your connections; being likely Soc last I feel disgusted by humanity as a whole and having to be part of it.

Trump is not a 4. So obviously the soc vs. sx vs. sp would affect him a different way. I wonder how we could set up a parallel though. Also, I wonder how an Sp 4 would relate to this... and likewise how an Sp 8 would be likely to view humanity if he is social second. He seems to LOVE AMERICA (or his idea of what 'makes' America, biased though many people might believe it is) ... so that does indicate he's not social last.. no matter how clumsy he is. At least it does to me. I know an Sp/Sx 8 who gives exactly zero shits about anyone outside his immediate concern, and a lot of times there's nobody in his immediate concern.. which is why he says his kids saved his life.


----------



## d e c a d e n t

I relate to feeling very human, though at the same time, humans overall are pretty horrible. So I have some mixed thoughts on this (not like this is the right place to unpack them =P)


----------



## Parrot

Animal said:


> I know that not everyone buys into this theory, and I'm not sure how much stock to put into it, but...
> 
> Have you seen this?
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings
> 
> Specifically, this part:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is any truth to this, I'd assume Trump would have to be contra-flow, which would mean So/Sp. @Philathea you might find this interesting too, since you are So/Sp yourself.. maybe you have thoughts on its merit or demerit?


I read that too. I think the flow concept is a little too much. For example, inclusion vs exclusion is also affiliated with other typology traits too, like Ne/Si is more inclusive while Se/Ni is more exclusive. Not sure I'd agree that flow exists, but so/sp just means one is dom and the other is also a priority. Otherwise, this system is just pure speculation, and I don't think it's as relevant to personality as cognition and emotion are.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

Animal said:


> That's interesting - I think about it the opposite way. Like in the movies "Avatar" or "District 9" - argue what you want about how corny Avatar is, or how both plots are almost the same.. but when it comes to the principle of the thing, I agree with them. Humans are destructive, xenophobic, intolerant, counter-productive. I love people on an individual basis, and I respect people on an individual basis by default (I also am more than willing to "point out" when someone DISRESPECTS me or others by default, without knowing anything about me or that person) .... but I hate the way humans form groups and those groups turn against other groups and then we have war, and famine & poverty (which is a form of violence), and slavery... all for the benefit of a few assholes sitting on the top of some throne collecting something from it. I find most people's voting choices, willful blindness to the truth, etc... completely insane and counter-productive. I can't believe that we had the money to go to the moon 50 years ago, and now we have done nothing more and wasted most of our money on fighting against each other. What is wrong with this race?? Therefore I do tend to feel like if there is an alien species somewhere who would be able to find us and comprehend what we do, they would shake their heads and say to each other in their language "These people have the mental capacity for space travel and they waste it on wars against their own species. Why?"


You know who had a similar view...


* *











> Sailors fighting in the dance hall
> Oh man!
> Look at those cavemen go
> It's the freakiest show
> Take a look at the Lawman
> Beating up the wrong guy
> Oh man! Wonder if he'll ever know
> He's in the best selling show
> Is there life on Mars?


----------



## Animal

mistakenforstranger said:


> You know who had a similar view...
> 
> 
> * *


I think you're reading a bit into his "view" here - and mine. A lot of people talk about other planets or fantasize about being elsewhere, and the lyric you quoted is so abstract, it could literally mean anything.

This is the origin of the song you just quoted, according to Wikipedia:



> In 1968, Bowie wrote the lyrics "Even a Fool Learns to Love," set to the music of a 1967 French song "Comme d'habitude," composed by Claude François and Jacques Revaux. Bowie's version was never released, but Paul Anka bought the rights to the original French version and rewrote it into "My Way," the song made famous by Frank Sinatra in a 1969 recording on his album of the same name. The success of the Anka version prompted Bowie to write "Life on Mars?" as a parody of Sinatra's recording.


So.. even if you could somehow find an emotional message in there, the song was intended as a parody, and has nothing to do with Bowie's feelings.


Overall, David Bowie is like a prism of mirrors. You can interpret any meaning you want because his lyrics are so off-the-wall and abstract. I don't want people to hear my lyrics and read whatever they want into it; I want them to see ME, naked and plain, for who I am, stripped bare.... and in seeing me, they will also see themselves stripped bare, ideally. I can't relate to singers who try to reel everybody in with their abstract metaphors, or who cover their bare naked honesty with any sort of glitz that obscures the raw emotion they're conveying.

My version of the "why am I on this planet?" sentiment can be summed up in a short a poem I wrote in 1999, which I've shared many times on this forum before:

_Am ii too jagged 
Or is the world too perfectly round?
Sometimes ii feel like everyone else is lost
and ii, alone, am found.
But if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it
Does it make a sound?
That question is what keeps me
so tightly bound._


I'm no poet, but I don't want to share my song lyrics on forum. Still the poem gets the point across, and demonstrates how I write. I'm straight forward, and you can't possibly read another meaning into it. It is what it is - raw. 



___

I won't say any more on this topic in this thread, out of respect for the OP. You can have the last word... _or talk about Bowie on one of the two threads that are about Bowie. _


----------



## angelfish

Animal said:


> I know that not everyone buys into this theory, and I'm not sure how much stock to put into it, but...
> 
> Have you seen this?
> 
> Socionics - the16types.info - Instinctual Stackings
> 
> Specifically, this part:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is any truth to this, I'd assume Trump would have to be contra-flow, which would mean So/Sp. @Philathea you might find this interesting too, since you are So/Sp yourself.. maybe you have thoughts on its merit or demerit?


Indeed, and I love the patterns! 

I don't know that I do see Trump as contraflow though. He is definitely brash, and challenging, and kind of an asshole in general - definitely self-invested over everything else - but I don't see him as always rejecting of the human condition. Trump is all "make America great again", building things, starting businesses, improving conditions, gathering people, collecting things under his name. I think he's an idiot and disagree with almost all of it, but it still seems potentially quite synflow to me. 

I suppose my position is a bit colored by my personal experience of initially having believed I was contraflow myself, sx/so. I am swift to be skeptical and to raise a banner against anything I perceive to be injustice. But as I'm sure you can guess that ties into being a 6 - I believe at the time I learned this bit of theory I was typing as a 7 or 3 and didn't consider my e-type being the root of my antagonistic stance. Now I can see that I am a pretty cp 6, but synflow in my behaviors.

I do love the flow descriptive pairs but I think they can be misleading in isolation. My good college friend is an ENFJ 3w4 so/sp but if I had to type her by this she would easily fall more under soc/sx, while my sx/sp ISTP 9w8 brother could easily pass for the sp/sx energies.


----------



## Animal

Calm younger Trump.






Lots of Soc and Sp signs. Thoughts?


----------



## dfoster

Sun Daeva said:


> *Sp *is dry and solid. *So *is airy and electric. *Sx *is wet and fiery.
> 
> And I disagree with the idea of Trump being fiery. To my eyes, he is not fiery at all. He is loud and controversial, but all in an almost light-hearted fashion. He is heady, for an 8. He's a lot of talk, but has no sense at all for (emotional) seduction.
> Social first, Sexual last.


Right, almost like he wants people to think he's sexual but he's not really sexual.

I read that in college, he spent most of his free time working, not chasing women. A long time friend said he never heard Trump talk romantically about a woman, but heard him talk romantically about WORK. The guy even said a typical Friday night for Trump is buying a bag of candies and going home to watch TV.

What I get is a workaholic loner.

He BRAGGED about his sexual conquests but the main goal is the bragging, not the activity itself. He bragged about his close relationships with big, powerful people for the same purpose.



Sun Daeva said:


> He is loud and controversial, but all in an almost* light-hearted* fashion.


Exactly! He's almost making fun of himself if you really pay attention to the way he says things. One example is him saying how he loved the lighting in a video of himself because it covered his bald spot really well. In one of his books, he talks about walking to a fundraiser while it was raining and was concerned that his hair would look terrible. He makes fun of his hair obsession many times in his speeches, if you really read between the lines.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

@Animal, in the link you provided it says,



> Bowie, at the time of Hunky Dory's release in 1971, summed up the song as "A sensitive young girl's reaction to the media." In 1997, he added "I think she finds herself disappointed with reality... that although she's living in the doldrums of reality, she's being told that there's a far greater life somewhere, and she's bitterly disappointed that she doesn't have access to it."


And in regards to it not being about his feelings, 



> While on tour in 1990, Bowie introduced the song by saying "You fall in love, you write a love song. This is a love song."[4]


However, I won't talk about it anymore here. Maybe I'll start a new thread on Bowie's E-type, and see what everyone else has to say, like we're doing with Trump here.


----------



## Animal

@dfoster
Yay! You're back!


----------



## dfoster

Animal said:


> @*dfoster*
> Yay! You're back!


 Hey! good seeing you on here. Good to be back. I'm running into real life situations where I need to brush up on my Enneagram knowledge. Also want to learn more about the instincts which I didn't think I had a good grip on. Looks like things are as lively as ever here


----------



## Animal

dfoster said:


> Hey! good seeing you on here. Good to be back. I'm running into real life situations where I need to brush up on my Enneagram knowledge. Also want to learn more about the instincts which I didn't think I had a good grip on. Looks like things are as lively as ever here


Lively, yes! Overflowing with quantity, unpredictable in quality... same old perc. I miss your realistic and honest posts about type 8. Tiz a rare gem on this forum.

Real life situations, though??? Yuck.

:tongue:


----------



## Helios

Donald Trump seems pretty 7w8 to me. Yeah sure he's aggressive and ballsy and all of that but most of it is for entertainment and shock value. Definitely 8w7 fixed.


----------



## Once Upon A Time

On second thought, does anyone think he might be an ESTJ? I got that vibe after reading what some of his former producers and contestants had to say about him.


----------



## enneathusiast

Once Upon A Time said:


> On second thought, does anyone think he might be an ESTJ? I got that vibe after reading what some of his former producers and contestants had to say about him.


Please keep the discussion focused on Enneagram type and/or instinct. This thread and forum are about the Enneagram not Jungian related systems. There are plenty of other forums for discussing those systems. Thanks.


----------



## Felipe

I don't think there is anything "7" about trump, not even a wing


----------



## Once Upon A Time

enneathusiast said:


> Please keep the discussion focused on Enneagram type and/or instinct. This thread and forum are about the Enneagram not Jungian related systems. There are plenty of other forums for discussing those systems. Thanks.


Oops, last I left this thread they were discussing if he was estp or esfp. Sorry!


----------



## enneathusiast

Helios said:


> Donald Trump seems pretty 7w8 to me. Yeah sure he's aggressive and ballsy and all of that but most of it is for entertainment and shock value.


Actually, what he continually reminds everyone is that he's in it to win. The shock value is what keeps all eyes on him. It sucks the attention away from everyone else and puts him at the center of things.


----------



## enneathusiast

Once Upon A Time said:


> Oops, last I left this thread they were discussing if he was estp or esfp. Sorry!


Yea, that Jungian stuff derailed the discussion for pages. It took me a while to get it back on track and I don't want to have to go through that again. Thanks for understanding.


----------



## Animal

Felipe said:


> I don't think there is anything "7" about trump, not even a wing


How would you type him?


----------



## angelfish

Felipe said:


> I don't think there is anything "7" about trump, not even a wing


Trump took over his family real estate company in 1971... it now includes or has included... 
- Lots of resorts/casinos/hotels/homes/stores
- Marina
- Private clubs
- Merry-go-round
- Skating rink
- Winery
- Steaks
- Bottled water
- Vodka
- Golf courses
- Financial services holdings
- Energy drinks
- Books
- Miss Universe 
- Restaurants 
- Business education
- Search engine
- Coffee
- Shuttles
- Computer games
- Fragrances
- Jewelry
- Clothing

If that's not e7 influence... 

Seems 378 come to think of it... 8w7-3w4-7w8 or the like...


----------



## enneathusiast

angelfish said:


> Trump took over his family real estate company in 1971... it now includes or has included...
> - Lots of resorts/casinos/hotels/homes/stores
> - Marina
> - Private clubs
> - Merry-go-round
> - Skating rink
> - Winery
> - Steaks
> - Bottled water
> - Vodka
> - Golf courses
> - Financial services holdings
> - Energy drinks
> - Books
> - Miss Universe
> - Restaurants
> - Business education
> - Search engine
> - Coffee
> - Shuttles
> - Computer games
> - Fragrances
> - Jewelry
> - Clothing
> 
> If that's not e7 influence...
> 
> Seems 378 come to think of it... 8w7-3w4-7w8 or the like...


That's just merchandising the brand and growing the empire. Gene Simmons does the same thing with the "Kiss" brand - everything from action figures to caskets to video games to condoms.

Trump is all about the "Trump" brand and how to make money from it. That's his empire.


----------



## angelfish

enneathusiast said:


> That's just merchandising the brand and growing the empire. Gene Simmons does the same thing with the "Kiss" brand - everything from action figures to caskets to video games to condoms.
> 
> Trump is all about the "Trump" brand and how to make money from it. That's his empire.


I agree to some extent - but there are other ways of making money, too. There are businesses like Rolex that make their money by being very, very good at making a much smaller collection luxury items - more 531ish. Trump could have further refined into real estate (or any other area) instead of spreading outwardly so much. Certainly most name-brand companies have minor merchandising, but a major overall theme with Trump is expansion, which seems very 7/8.


----------



## enneathusiast

angelfish said:


> I agree to some extent - but there are other ways of making money, too. There are businesses like Rolex that make their money by being very, very good at making a much smaller collection luxury items - more 531ish. Trump could have further refined into real estate (or any other area) instead of spreading outwardly so much. Certainly most name-brand companies have minor merchandising, but a major overall theme with Trump is expansion, which seems very 7/8.


I'm not sure it was clear but I was implying that Trump's excessive expansion of brand has to do with type 8 (it doesn't have to do with type 7). I see Trump as empire building which would fit social 8 to me (having impact/control/power in the social realm). Add in the narcissistic branding (seeing his own name on everything) and it fits for Trump as so/sp 8w7 to me. 

There's more than just that to suggest that typing but that's so primary in his life that I don't know that much else is needed to make that determination. I guess you could throw in his constant criticism for why he's running for president if you need it: everyone else is weak and incompetent and I would be a strong and competent leader (classic pull that brings type 8 to take over the leadership role - others are weak and/or incompetent).


----------



## Felipe

Animal said:


> How would you type him?


just 8, no wing (if that's possible)


----------



## Felipe

angelfish said:


> Trump took over his family real estate company in 1971... it now includes or has included...
> - Lots of resorts/casinos/hotels/homes/stores
> - Marina
> - Private clubs
> - Merry-go-round
> - Skating rink
> - Winery
> - Steaks
> - Bottled water
> - Vodka
> - Golf courses
> - Financial services holdings
> - Energy drinks
> - Books
> - Miss Universe
> - Restaurants
> - Business education
> - Search engine
> - Coffee
> - Shuttles
> - Computer games
> - Fragrances
> - Jewelry
> - Clothing
> 
> If that's not e7 influence...
> 
> Seems 378 come to think of it... 8w7-3w4-7w8 or the like...


7 likes to consume things not have things to show off their power, that is an 8 thing. Trump doesn't have problem with over consuming life or being an adrenaline junkie or avoiding unpleasant and serious matters.


----------



## angelfish

Felipe said:


> 7 likes to consume things not have things to show off their power, that is an 8 thing. Trump doesn't have problem with over consuming life or being an adrenaline junkie or avoiding unpleasant and serious matters.


I disagree - Trump seems like he _does_ have a problem with overconsumption. He flaunts his wealth and possessions, and his dynamic energy. He is in constant pursuit of more. I do not identify "adrenaline junkie" as a pure 7 trait - more 7 sx, and as I have stated before I believe Trump is sx-low, so I don't consider that a useful distinguishing trait in terms of his enneatype. He doesn't avoid unpleasant or serious matters outside himself, but I've never heard him apologize (9s on the other hand tend to be self-effacing). He doesn't seem to have much patience, and doesn't seem to do much sitting still. 

That said, as I indicated in the previous post, I do believe Trump is a core 8 - just an 8w7. I feel like his wing is quite clear. Hardly any indication of e9 in his external presence.



enneathusiast said:


> I'm not sure it was clear but I was implying that Trump's excessive expansion of brand has to do with type 8 (it doesn't have to do with type 7). I see Trump as empire building which would fit social 8 to me (having impact/control/power in the social realm). Add in the narcissistic branding (seeing his own name on everything) and it fits for Trump as so/sp 8w7 to me.
> 
> There's more than just that to suggest that typing but that's so primary in his life that I don't know that much else is needed to make that determination. I guess you could throw in his constant criticism for why he's running for president if you need it: everyone else is weak and incompetent and I would be a strong and competent leader (classic pull that brings type 8 to take over the leadership role - others are weak and/or incompetent).


Oh, that's funny! I agree exactly with that typing (8w7). I typed him the same several posts (maybe pages by now?) ago. Though I feel like IV is a hard call between sp/so and so/sp. It seems to me like he is more neurotic in the sp realm. As a soc-dominant, I feel like he is often oblivious to Social cause and effect. I struggle to see him as a composed soc/sp. He's painfully straightforward - an 8 quality, true, but also sp. Candor is 8. Consciously choosing time and place to say what is soc. I am not sure I feel like Trump plays that game to a neurotic soc-first level.

I just was disagreeing with Felipe's post where he said he didn't see any 7 in Trump at all. I feel like a 7 wing is quite characteristic of him.


----------



## charlie.elliot

Donald Trump has no real opinions of his own, he says whatever will get him attention, whatever the public wants to hear. He maneuvers perfectly and harnesses peoples' fears perfectly. Would an 8 do that? He's incredibly in tune with the people he talks to. How would he have gotten anywhere otherwise? That's why I think he's a 3. 

I think an 8 would have their own _personal_ agenda. They would be acting out of a fear of being attacked. Donald Trump has no such fear. He is not at all afraid of anything; he has a blatant disregard for taking _anything_ important seriously-- all that matters is his image, his status. That fits perfectly with the image triad. 8s take threats seriously (though they like to show a persona of having no fear); 3s just plunge ahead towards victory with no regard for their own safety. (8s like to say they have no fear, but I think that's the fear itself talking. If you _really_ had no fear, why talk about it? 3s really have no fear, and they dont even feel the need to talk about it). 
3s have no fear because they're not really dealing with reality in their heads; all they care about is their image. 8s, at least, are engaged with reality, and thus need some healthy fear.

Trump seems so adverse to shame, so deliberately shameless, but that's his purposeful decision. He realized he could win by purposefully subverting all shame from himself. He's made himself immune to shame, and that's probably why he feels he could take over the world-- he's conquered the one great demon. "Shame" is definitely his core issue, not anger or fear. 

For an example of how an 8 would handle a presidential campaign, see Bernie Sanders... literally doesn't care what anyone thinks (in contrast to Trump who is completely aware of what other people think). Just plunges ahead with his personal agenda. Wants to bulldoze everyone over who doesn't agree with him. He's the one who gets angry incredibly easily and shouts "fuck you" at people in meetings (trying to locate article I read that in...). 
Trump would never dare say such an uncalculated thing-- Trump is calculated at every moment, never loses control.


----------



## Daeva

charlie.elliot said:


> I think an 8 would have their own personal agenda. They would be acting out of a fear of being attacked.


Type 8 would act out of fear of being attacked? How do you figure?



charlie.elliot said:


> 3s really have no fear, and they dont even feel the need to talk about it).


Are you familiar with this interpretation of 3?

http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-f...ation-threes-according-beatrice-chestnut.html

Regardless of the dominant instinct though, I highly doubt 3's have no fear. Can you elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?



charlie.elliot said:


> 3s have no fear because they're not really dealing with reality in their heads; all they care about is their image. 8s, at least, are engaged with reality, and thus need some healthy fear.


.. because that is not what the Image triad is about.
With this reasoning, we could argue that none of the types deal with reality.


----------



## Quernus

charlie.elliot said:


> I want to click 8 because he certainly seems 8ish.
> 
> However, I keep being struck by the way he adapts to situations. He does the typical 3 thing of reflecting exactly what people want to hear. He doesn't seem to have any strong beliefs in particular, aside from "get rich and famous". He just reflects exactly what people want to hear, and uses that to get ahead.
> 
> I read an article about how he knows exactly how to speak to appeal to people (everything down to how many syllables his words have).
> 
> I would expect an 8 to be more specific-agenda-driven (i.e. having a really strong opinion about particular issue and not caring what people think). Like Bernie.
> 
> But on the other hand, I would not expect a 3 to be so ugly and disgusting to watch XD
> Seems like 3s would operate with dignity and decorum .


I think he panders to what specific people want to hear - powerful people in particular, or people who will gain him power. He has no qualms being generally unpopular as long as he gets whatever the hell he wants in the end. I think the reason he doesn't seem truly agenda driven is because he has never formed actual ideas, therefore has no real values, just thinks he and other rich people are better than anyone else. Like, his one true value/goal is to set out to prove he can do whatever he would like to do, that anyone who can't keep up deserves to suffer (minorities, non-rich people, etc).

The only time I've seen him express potential image issues - when Obama "roasted" him years back, and he was clearly furious... and anytime someone (like in the audience) booed him or something. But then, I don't think it even looked like shame, so much as "how dare you try to bring me down, you inferior buffoon. I will have my revenge". LOL I kind of wonder if this entire campaign is just an attempt at getting revenge on Obama for roasting him? That could be seen as an image thing or a power thing.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I agree with @*Swordsman of Mana*, and am back to my original impression of Trump as 8w7 sx/so for his instincts. He has a clear so-instinct, but he devalues sp over sx, so I can't see him as sx-last:

"If you're interested in 'balancing' work and pleasure, stop trying to balance them. Instead make your work more pleasurable."

"Money was never a big motivation for me, except as a way to keep score. The real excitement is playing the game."

"All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me - consciously or unconsciously. That's to be expected."

Compare him to actual so/sp 8 Bill O'Reilly, and you'll see he's sx-last. Trump? I can't see it.

And compare the energies of the stackings:

So/Sp

Motivation: to attain status within their chosen sphere - the "social climber."
This type is often the most comfortable in group settings, but tends to be a bit formal and awkward in one to one relations. This is the natural political type, affiliating themselves with groups or theories which best defend their social and material interests. They may lack warmth and individual identity and this could lead to problems in forming meaningful relationships outside of a shared social interest. They know what they like, but often find it difficult to get deeply excited or enthusiastic about anything.

Expression: bright smiley, calm expression
Energy: outward energy expressed calmly, steadily, broadly (more flow and steady energy to their engaging and less jerkiness, gushiness, or over-the-topness like the so/sx)
Behavior: bright, smiley, calm and thoughtful
Mindset: "If I can establish an orderly and pleasing lifestyle, I can make sure of and keep improving my position and inclusion in the group/world."
Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to maintain physical saftey, comfort, and an orderly lifestyle for the sake of their primary concern of building their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the need to stimulate the mind or emotions, of a sense of deep excitement or enthusiasm, of a need for intimate experiences, of the need for the unfamiliar. May fall into routines and, despite social connection, may feel a strange disconnection even from spouses, friends, and family. They may often limerence but struggle to develop deeper attachments.

Sx/So

Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this sub-variant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this sub-variant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.

Expression: intense, outer-focused
Energy: intense energy expressed outwards, assertively
Behavior: intense, assertive, sultry and aggressive
Mindset: "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the body's need for food or sleep, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle.


----------



## enneathusiast

mistakenforstranger said:


> Sx/So
> 
> 
> Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences...


I don't think that's Trump's blind spot. It seems a big part of his life. It's all about his brand, showing off his accomplishments, accumulating wealth, etc. IMO, if that quote is referring to SP-last then that take on it doesn't apply to Trump.


----------



## tanstaafl28

With a strong 3 fix, I'd say. Or a 3 with a strong 8 fix. I could see him as a 837 or a 387.


----------



## throughtheroses

I still see him as an especially aggressive 7w8-8w7-3w2 sp (and an ESTP, for what it's worth). 

Then again, I read an article recently about his childhood, and I saw the clear clash with authority of both 7 and 8 (and the disturbing bullying behavior of the 7w8). He apparently ran around the neighborhood throwing rocks at younger children and misbehaving, just to spite his seeming-ESTJ/1 father. Then his dad sent him away to military school, where he chafed under the restraints but nonetheless managed to claw his way to the top.

It's impossible to tell his true motivations, though, which makes it tricky to decide between the two types. Did/does he want to be in charge for reasons of personal enjoyment and freedom or as an extension of his perceived autonomy and capability? I lean towards enjoyment (7), but I could see the argument for 8 as well.


----------



## Animal

throughtheroses said:


> I still see him as an especially aggressive 7w8-8w7-3w2 sp (and an ESTP, for what it's worth).
> 
> Then again, I read an article recently about his childhood, and I saw the clear clash with authority of both 7 and 8 (and the disturbing bullying behavior of the 7w8). He apparently ran around the neighborhood throwing rocks at younger children and misbehaving, just to spite his seeming-ESTJ/1 father. Then his dad sent him away to military school, where he chafed under the restraints but nonetheless managed to claw his way to the top.
> 
> It's impossible to tell his true motivations, though, which makes it tricky to decide between the two types. Did/does he want to be in charge for reasons of personal enjoyment and freedom or as an extension of his perceived autonomy and capability? I lean towards enjoyment (7), but I could see the argument for 8 as well.


About his motivations- I think there's an element of wanting glory. He already has enough money and resources, and he is already super famous, but it seems like the glory and fame are never enough for him. It seems to me, that it goes beyond wanting more autonomy or freedom, or wanting power.... he wants to be seen a certain way, and remembered.

That said, 3 makes no sense for him. I would see this motivation - in his case - as 7 narcissism, or Soc 8 line-to-2 "glory," or 2 "pride and glory." 

I think he's So/Sp. It's hard to decide which instinct is first, but the apparent need for glory, to be remembered, strikes me as a deeper social neurosis. It appears to me that he uses his Sp (money, resources) in order to meet the needs of his social instinct , which involve a desire for incredible magnanimity and glory which will never be enough.

He strikes me as the type of person who would do ANYTHING for attention. And both 8s and 7s can be like that, though the idea is usually associated with image types at surface. For 7s it's narcissistic supply and for 8s, the broken line to 2 and which leads to a distorted and buried urge to display magnanimity, which can come out in revenge or other ways. 

I am rethinking his typing because I've been looking at childhood pictures and other stuff from his early life, but I think there are 7, 8 and 2 elements, and strong Social instinct.


----------



## enneathusiast

I don't get why people are considering type 7 for Donald Trump. All I've heard from him are type 8 motivations. Here's an example from an interview in 1988 where he's talking about how he's tired of seeing the US being taken advantage of by the rest of the world (something he continues to say today).


----------



## JonathanLivingstonSeagull

_Sorry, post removed._


----------



## JonathanLivingstonSeagull

Toroidal said:


> Let me ask you this, why is Ted Cruz more calm than Donald Trump? Trump gets much more angry and upset. Why? Which cognitive function causes that. This is real intelligence.


Partly because Ted Cruz is a Te dom rather than an Se dom, but primarily because Donald Trump has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And whenever Trump lashes out (which is constantly) he's exhibiting narcissistic rage.


----------



## periwinklepromise

JonathanLivingstonSeagull said:


> Partly because Ted Cruz is a Te dom rather than an Se dom,


Hey man, just lettin you know - This is an Enneagram thread, and enneathusiast doesn't much care for people bringing Myers Briggs into it. Leave that stuff out, start your own thread, or argue it over PM. Just don't do it here.

To contribute to the discussion, I will add that for me, my hesitance to type Trump as 8 is in part due to Lust vs Gluttony. I see Trump as falling into the Gluttony side of things, because I don't see Trump as doing the Lust thing of needing excess just so he can _finally_ feel something, which is how I experience my type 8 Lust. I will admit my distaste for his beliefs (can we call them beliefs?) and rhetoric make it harder for me to type him, but I also know that there are other figures typed at 8, whom I dislike, but I still agree with the typing. So idk


----------



## JonathanLivingstonSeagull

periwinklepromise said:


> Hey man, just lettin you know - This is an Enneagram thread, and enneathusiast doesn't much care for people bringing Myers Briggs into it. Leave that stuff out, start your own thread, or argue it over PM. Just don't do it here.
> 
> To contribute to the discussion, I will add that for me, my hesitance to type Trump as 8 is in part due to Lust vs Gluttony.


Sure no prob. The main point of that last post of mine was just that Trump has a personality disorder, so that influences the manifestation of any of the personality theory criteria, both MBTI and Enneagram. Pathological narcissists may effectively exhibit all nine of the Enneagram vices.


----------



## drmiller100

JonathanLivingstonSeagull said:


> Sure no prob. The main point of that last post of mine was just that Trump has a personality disorder, so that influences the manifestation of any of the personality theory criteria, both MBTI and Enneagram. Pathological narcissists may effectively exhibit all nine of the Enneagram vices.


sometimes I get sick of the armchair bullshit opinions regarding PEOPLE. 

He is a PERSON. You don't have to like him, but your bullshit diagnosis is meaningless drivel.


----------



## JonathanLivingstonSeagull

> sometimes I get sick of the armchair bullshit opinions regarding PEOPLE.


Then why are you on a forum all about classifying PEOPLE according to subjective observations (i.e. armchair bullshit opinions)?



> He is a PERSON. You don't have to like him, but your bullshit diagnosis is meaningless drivel.


Hey man. I know he's a person. And I actually don't mind him that much. 

Anyone who isn't into Enneagram would say the same thing about us typing Trump an 8 or a 7 -- just a "bullshit diagnosis" that's "meaningless drivel".

I guess you found it offensive that I brought the term "personality disorder" into this, but there's no need to be offended. It's really just a classification just like any other, like ESTP type 8w7.

I'm not being holier-than-thou by saying he has a personality disorder. I grew up with a narcissistic father who routinely exhibited narcissistic rage, I've done a bunch of reading into the subject, and all I'm saying is that Trump clearly exhibits pathological narcissistic rage characteristic of someone with narcissistic personality disorder.

Clearly.


----------



## drmiller100

JonathanLivingstonSeagull said:


> Then why are you on a forum all about classifying PEOPLE according to subjective observations (i.e. armchair bullshit opinions)?
> 
> .


I don't classify others. when asked, I give opinions on where to start reading, but I believe it is really up to each person to figure themselves out. 
I havent' seen anyone claiming to be trump ask me for my opinion. 

Clearly.


----------



## JonathanLivingstonSeagull

> I don't classify others. when asked, I give opinions on where to start reading, but I believe it is really up to each person to figure themselves out.


Dude that's fine, that's your prerogative. 

But literally the entire point of this thread, and many other threads on this forum, are to classify people regardless of whether they want to figure themselves out, in an attempt to better understand people in general.

It's our prerogative to give people classifications based on psychology and personality theories, and there's no need for you to condemn people for doing so.


----------



## drmiller100

JonathanLivingstonSeagull said:


> Dude that's fine, that's your prerogative.
> 
> But literally the entire point of this thread, and many other threads on this forum, are to classify people regardless of whether they want to figure themselves out, in an attempt to better understand people in general.
> 
> It's our prerogative to give people classifications based on psychology and personality theories, and there's no need for you to condemn people for doing so.


Dude. I didn't condemn you. 

Clearly.


----------



## mangodelic psycho

His political personna seems 8.. I think because he sounds so dumb and blunt when he talks publically people automatically assume that's his personality genuinely (which is the whole ESTP game I may add), but in the end it is a personna at least to some degree. Think of his target audience.. Real Trump could be a 3 or 1 or even 6.


----------



## 000

psychedelicmango said:


> His political personna seems 8.. I think because he sounds so dumb and blunt when he talks publically people automatically assume that's his personality genuinely (which is the whole ESTP game I may add), but in the end it is a personna at least to some degree. Think of his target audience.. Real Trump could be a 3 or 1 or even 6.


Real Trump is an Eight. It's not like insight into who is hasn't been shown through documentaries, his "empire", buisiness dealings and TV shows, and now running for POTUS. The man is not putting on a front at all (to his occaisional detriment in the political game) and that's refreshing for a lot of people.
He sounds dumb and blunt? That bluntness has gotten him media publicity estimated around Two billion dollars.


----------



## Endologic

Where's the "Enneagram is bullshit" option?


----------



## Shadow Tag

Emologic said:


> Where's the "Enneagram is bullshit" option?


So edgy.
[HR][/HR]
But back on topic: dunno what Trump's instincts are because I haven't been following him _that_ closely, but not only is he an 8w7, he's a caricature of one. 3s have more of a reserved, professional air to them, and tact is their speciality. Trump isn't any of these things.


----------



## Endologic

Floette said:


> So edgy.


I'm kidding, but I'm also serious.


----------



## Endologic

Floette said:


> So edgy.


I'm kidding, but I'm also serious. (Double post, please delete.)


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I agree he is an 8. I don't see what other type he could be. He thinks and acts like he owns every room he is in. I couldn't stand his Apprentice Show. It was all about power and and what you are willing to do to get it. Make tough decisions. Sell out your friends. That is stuff you have to do. lol


----------



## Kisshoten

This is one of the characters of Theophrastus - 


Theophrastus said:


> BRAGGING is pretending to have excellences that one
> does not really possess. The
> braggart is the man who stands
> on the wharf and tells the by-
> standers how much capital he
> has invested in ships at sea, and
> tells how extensive is his busi-
> ness of loaning money, and how
> much he has made and lost by
> different ventures. As he talks
> thus magnificently, he sends his
> slave to his banker, where he has
> — exactly one shilling to his
> credit. On a journey he imposes
> on his travelling companion by
> telling him that he once served
> with Alexander, and how intimate
> were their relations, and how
> many jewelled cups he brought
> back from his campaigns.
> 
> 
> As regards the Asiatic artists, he
> counts them better than those in
> Europe. And all this he tells
> you without having once set foot
> outside his native city. He claims
> further to have three letters from
> Antipater bidding him come to
> Macedonia; but he declares that,
> though he has been guaranteed the
> privilege of exporting wood free
> of duty, he has refused to go, sim-
> ply to avoid being suspected by
> his fellow-citizens of foreign lean-
> ings. The Macedonians, he says,
> in urging him so to come, ought
> to have considered this point.
> 
> 
> In time of famine, he says, his expen-
> ditures for the poor amounted to
> over five talents ; for he had n't the
> heart to refuse. When he 's with
> strangers, he often bids some one
> place the reckoning counters on
> the table, and computing by six
> hundreds and by minae, glibly
> mentioning the names of his pre-
> tended debtors, he makes a total of
> twenty-four talents, saying that the
> whole sum had gone for voluntary
> contributions, and that, too, with-
> out including subscriptions for the
> navy or for other public objects.
> 
> 
> At times he goes to the horse-
> market where blooded stock is
> for sale, and makes pretence of
> wanting to buy ; and stepping
> up to the block, he hunts
> his clothes for two talents, up-
> braiding his servant for com-
> ing along without any money.
> Though he lives in a rented
> house, he represents it to those
> who do not know as the family
> homestead ; yet adds that he
> thinks of selling it as being too
> small for the proper entertain-
> ment of his friends.


I think this is Trump from Theophrastus' time. And Naranjo classified this Theophrastian character under E2. 

Just saying.


----------



## Belzy

Makes enough sense to me, while it's a type (and he's a person) I cannot relate to at all.


----------



## dfoster

Animal said:


> About his motivations- I think there's an element of wanting glory. He already has enough money and resources, and he is already super famous, but it seems like the glory and fame are never enough for him. It seems to me, that it goes beyond wanting more autonomy or freedom, or wanting power.... he wants to be seen a certain way, and remembered.
> 
> That said, 3 makes no sense for him. I would see this motivation - in his case - as 7 narcissism, or Soc 8 line-to-2 "glory," or 2 "pride and glory."
> 
> I think he's So/Sp. It's hard to decide which instinct is first, but the apparent need for glory, to be remembered, strikes me as a deeper social neurosis. It appears to me that he uses his Sp (money, resources) in order to meet the needs of his social instinct , which involve a desire for incredible magnanimity and glory which will never be enough.
> 
> He strikes me as the type of person who would do ANYTHING for attention. And both 8s and 7s can be like that, though the idea is usually associated with image types at surface. For 7s it's narcissistic supply and for 8s, the broken line to 2 and which leads to a distorted and buried urge to display magnanimity, which can come out in revenge or other ways.
> 
> I am rethinking his typing because I've been looking at childhood pictures and other stuff from his early life, but I think there are 7, 8 and 2 elements, and strong Social instinct.


I also think he's 8w7 So/Sp which is exactly what I think my type is. But I don't think I have that much narcissism in me (at least consciously.) This is interesting because I keep asking myself: What's the difference between him and me? either I had him wrong or myself wrong, or there are variations I have not accounted for.

It's an interesting exercise to look inside myself. About narcissism, I love to pull the strings, to make things happen which is like Trump but I don't care or don't want people to recognize me doing it, too much work and I don't like extra work 

Btw, in one of his books that I skimmed through years back, there's a chapter titled "Revenge"


----------



## enneathusiast

Animal said:


> About his motivations- I think there's an element of wanting glory.
> 
> ...I would see this motivation - in his case - as 7 narcissism, or Soc 8 line-to-2 "glory," or 2 "pride and glory."





Yasuo said:


> This is one of the characters of Theophrastus -
> I think this is Trump from Theophrastus' time. And Naranjo classified this Theophrastian character under E2.


I agree that character does fit Trump. I don't think his dominant type is 2 but I do see a connection from 8.

[HR][/HR]
I think it's worth exploring the type 8 connection to 2 for Trump. Several things come up in doing so.

IMO, it's an incorrect belief that the movement from 8 to 2 is an integration. It's not a positive or negative. To look at it having to be a positive misses what's there.

Type 2 is not "the helper". This was a label Naranjo used when he first began teaching the enneatypes and regrets having ever used it because he doesn't see type 2 as being especially helpful. The underlying motivation for it is what's important not how individuals may or may not behave in order to satisfy that motivation.

Personally, I see the type 2 for Trump as an awareness of the emotional energy within the crowd he's speaking to. He plays off that in order to ramp up the emotional energy in the crowd and their connection to him. He can't help himself from doing that. It's what takes him off message and gets him in trouble. He says whatever he has to in making that connection. 

Simply put, he says things that the crowd likes to hear, they then like him because of it. But it's in a direct and confrontational way that can be associated with type 8 (as opposed to the polish of type 3, the empathy of type 2, etc.).


----------



## mistakenforstranger

I see the influence of social instinct in Trump, however bad he is at managing it, but how is he sx-last?



> SX blind spot - subvert the fiery energy, tame the fire, don’t honor your passions, procrastinate and postpone if you need to, avoid anything stimulating. Inertia. When the sexual instinct is least developed, the personality can lack a certain charisma and momentum. These people may fear of being a boring, bland person, without passions, be afraid of having 'no juice', and feel flattered that someone wants to spend time with them. Their personal relationships can suffer from a lack of attention or attention that is too scattered.


----------



## enneathusiast

mistakenforstranger said:


> I see the influence of social instinct in Trump, however bad he is at managing it, but how is he sx-last?


I don't know what the SX-last quote you posted is saying.

To me, Trump is SX-last because SX simply isn't part of his MO.

He's huuuuge on managing and expanding his empire and brand (the Trump brand) which seems very self-preservation to me. It's also important that he have a huuuuge influence on the social realm. 

He seems rather flat, bland, uncaring in the intimate realm (whether that be one-on-one in terms of showing any reciprocal affection with anyone close or with interviewers). How he talks about those close to him or others seems to do with making them look good or bad in the social realm. It's almost as if he treats people according to what they represent to him (often on a superficial or caricature level) rather than with any deeper intimacy and understanding. It's all about "the Donald" and the social maneuvering.


----------



## Kisshoten

enneathusiast said:


> I agree that character does fit Trump. I don't think his dominant type is 2 but I do see a connection from 8.


I was of the opinion that Trump was a 2 until someone I know and consider to be well versed with how types worked made a very good argument about 2s typically being soft, which is when I shifted to 3. 

Like I have stated before, my primary argument against 8 (although superficially the guy does appear like an 8) relies on how much Trump is "image'' and nothing but image. As John Oliver puts it in his episode titled Donald Trump: Trump - the word - is a brand name he has cultivated. Everything 'Trump' is essentially something Donny has slapped his revamped last name on. Brands as quintessentially "image" concerns. Even his "I'm tough" is image. There is little to nothing that leads me to believe that he can back it up. He threatens to sue, he threatens never to settle and yet he either doesn't sue or settles. Pretty un-8-ly. 

This is also exactly the sort of the thing Theophrastus notes about his BRAGGART character. Quoting the relevant part. 


Theophrastus said:


> _The _
> _braggart is the man who stands _
> _on the wharf and tells the by- _
> _standers how much capital he _
> _has invested in ships at sea, and _
> _tells how extensive is his busi- _
> _ness of loaning money, and how _
> _much he has made and lost by _
> _different ventures. As he talks _
> _thus magnificently, he sends his _
> _slave to his banker, where he has _
> _— exactly one shilling to his _
> _credit._


The point I'm trying to make is how the braggart is essentially deceitful and picks the coward's way out -

BRAGGART: talking about shit tons of money --> depositing petty savings in the bank
TRUMP: talking about suing and never settling --> not suing, or settling when suing 





Pasting relevant John Oliver vid.



> I think it's worth exploring the type 8 connection to 2 for Trump. Several things come up in doing so.
> 
> IMO, it's an incorrect belief that the movement from 8 to 2 is an integration. It's not a positive or negative. To look at it having to be a positive misses what's there.


I am not talking about this, at least not right now. 



> Type 2 is not "the helper". This was a label Naranjo used when he first began teaching the enneatypes and regrets having ever used it because he doesn't see type 2 as being especially helpful. The underlying motivation for it is what's important not how individuals may or may not behave in order to satisfy that motivation.


I'm a Naranjo fan and I can't stop myself. So, forgive me for being exacting. 

Naranjo calls E2 _the Seducer _in his book, Character and Neuroses" and to my knowledge the book was published in 1994, i.e., 20+ years ago. All the "helper" references on the internet are now from other authors, iirc. 

So, yeah... 

(seriously though.. I'm sorry. this was irrelevant to the discussion) 



> Personally, I see the type 2 for Trump as an *awareness of the emotional energy within the crowd he's speaking to. He plays off that in order to ramp up the emotional energy in the crowd and their connection to him. He can't help himself from doing that. It's what takes him off message and gets him in trouble. He says whatever he has to in making that connection.*
> 
> Simply put, he says things that the crowd likes to hear, they then like him because of it. But it's in a direct and confrontational way that can be associated with type 8 (as opposed to the polish of type 3, the empathy of type 2, etc.).


This is the biggest piece of my argument. All the emotional awareness he displays, all of that is typical/natural/expected of a type 2. 

A person who can't help themselves from behaving like a 2 and acting on 2 motivations is more likely a 2 than an 8 acting out of their connection to 2. 

Besides, the connections in the enneagram are not connections due to similar behavior. They are connections owing to related motivation, where the relation is also very specific. Type 8 rejects type 2 motivation. Type 8 rejects pride and that is why everything that can be done is fair and justifiable. There is no 'stooping too low' per se because there is no pride involved that determines what is worthy or not worthy. This can also be related to guiltlessness, in a way. If nothing is deemed as being unfair, i.e., if everything is acceptable, there is no question of wrongdoing and therefore no guilt that can develop. 

Quoting Naranjo again:


Naranjo said:


> Apart from the psychodynamic links between fear, falseness and indolent laziness, they indicate the unidirectional paths between the points of the enneagram - psychodynamic links between the other passions - pointing to the following: how anger, when it turns on itself, becomes self-destructive envy; how envious voracity, seen in the mirror, becomes generosity fed by pride; how the attitude of the seductive conquest of pride becomes the domineering conquest of lust; how lustful greed, via self-negation becomes the impotent greed of avarice; how making economies and depriving oneself of avarice engender, as compensation, the attitude of self-wasting and self-indulgence of gluttony; and how once again sweet self-indulgence engenders an opposite: the austere severity of anger.
> 
> - pg41, from The Enneagram of Society


I think I'm going to back to 2 from 3, but I can't vote again. Nuts.


----------



## Daeva

mistakenforstranger said:


> I see the influence of social instinct in Trump, however bad he is at managing it, but how is he sx-last?


The man pays no respect to the energetic connection that Sx brings with it. How would you see him tuning in on the magnetism between him and a person of interest?


----------



## karmachameleon

Agree, he is sx last. When do you ever see him vulnerable and wanting to open up to be intimate? never. He can talk about politics and money alllll day long. Hes sp/so. And yes, 8.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

enneathusiast said:


> I don't know what the SX-last quote you posted is saying.
> 
> To me, Trump is SX-last because SX simply isn't part of his MO.
> 
> He's huuuuge on managing and expanding his empire and brand (the Trump brand) which seems very self-preservation to me. It's also important that he have a huuuuge influence on the social realm.
> 
> He seems rather flat, bland, uncaring in the intimate realm (whether that be one-on-one in terms of showing any reciprocal affection with anyone close or with interviewers). How he talks about those close to him or others seems to do with making them look good or bad in the social realm. It's almost as if he treats people according to what they represent to him (often on a superficial or caricature level) rather than with any deeper intimacy and understanding. It's all about "the Donald" and the social maneuvering.


Yes, I would agree now. I think he's so/sp. 

Read this article: Donald and Ivana Trump's Divorce: The Full Story | Vanity Fair

I would go through and highlight all the social instinct elements, but I don't care to spend much more time on Trump. And he's an 8w7 w/ 3w2-fix. He wanted warriors on his ceiling haha! 



> This past April, when his empire was in danger of collapse, Trump isolated himself in a small apartment on a lower floor of Trump Tower. He would lie on his bed, staring at the ceiling, talking into the night on the telephone. The Trumps had separated. Ivana remained upstairs in the family triplex with its beige onyx floors and low-ceilinged living room painted with murals in the style of Michelangelo. The murals had occasioned one of their frequent fights: Ivana wanted cherubs, Donald preferred warriors. The warriors won. “If this were on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, it would be very much in place in terms of quality,” Trump once said of the work. That April, Ivana began to tell her friends that she was worried about Donald’s state of mind.


----------



## enneathusiast

Yasuo said:


>


I've gotta remember that: Donald Drumpf!!!

Drumpf Towers, Drumpf University, Drumpf Steaks, Drumpf Vodka, Drumpf Airlines...sounds more appropriate.



Yasuo said:


> I'm a Naranjo fan and I can't stop myself. So, forgive me for being exacting.
> 
> Naranjo calls E2 _the Seducer _in his book, Character and Neuroses" and to my knowledge the book was published in 1994, i.e., 20+ years ago. All the "helper" references on the internet are now from other authors, iirc.


Yes, it's strange to me that so many authors use the term "helper" which originated from something the originator of the enneatypes (Naranjo) introduced with regret but then when he corrects that by saying "the helper" is inaccurate people continue to use it as if it's part of some ancient system. There's such a disconnect with the enneatypes in this way. People continue to use terms and concepts that have since evolved because people somehow tap into sources before the corrections and resurrect the misconceptions. E2 as the "helper" and the lines of integration are two such examples.

I think Naranjo's label for E2 in Ennea-Type Structures as "Egocentric Generosity" offers a needed contrast to type 2 as "the helper."



Yasuo said:


> This is the biggest piece of my argument. All the emotional awareness he displays, all of that is typical/natural/expected of a type 2.
> 
> A person who can't help themselves from behaving like a 2 and acting on 2 motivations is more likely a 2 than an 8 acting out of their connection to 2.
> 
> Besides, the connections in the enneagram are not connections due to similar behavior. They are connections owing to related motivation, where the relation is also very specific. Type 8 rejects type 2 motivation. Type 8 rejects pride and that is why everything that can be done is fair and justifiable. There is no 'stooping too low' per se because there is no pride involved that determines what is worthy or not worthy. This can also be related to guiltlessness, in a way. If nothing is deemed as being unfair, i.e., if everything is acceptable, there is no question of wrongdoing and therefore no guilt that can develop.


My take on the types is that we aren't a single type but a dynamic or pattern between the types. IMO, the dominant type is the one that's primary in that it's served first and foremost. Movement to the other types comes off the primary type so that the primary type is always first and in control behind the scenes. The other types simply are sort of layered on top.

I don't think it's that type 8 rejects pride but that type 8 remains strong and isn't vulnerable. Type 8 is also direct and not afraid of confrontation or controversy. Donald Drumpf doesn't show ANY vulnerability, empathy, or those things E2 would more freely express. The underlying E8 keeps that from happening and also shapes how he connects with the crowd - through toughness, directness, confrontation, blame, etc.


----------



## Kisshoten

enneathusiast said:


> My take on the types is that we aren't a single type but a dynamic or pattern between the types. IMO, the dominant type is the one that's primary in that it's served first and foremost. Movement to the other types comes off the primary type so that the primary type is always first and in control behind the scenes. The other types simply are sort of layered on top.


Yeah, I get that. 



> I don't think it's that type 8 rejects pride but that type 8 remains strong and isn't vulnerable. Type 8 is also direct and not afraid of confrontation or controversy. Donald Drumpf doesn't show ANY vulnerability, empathy, or those things E2 would more freely express. The underlying E8 keeps that from happening and also shapes how he connects with the crowd - through toughness, directness, confrontation, blame, etc.


This is the stuff that contributes to the impression that Trump is 8. But that's what I'm saying, it isn't real. All the fearlessness, etc. it's all just bluster. As for empathy and vulnerability being something core to 2, you're right, but would a guy advocating to build a wall to keep rapists out, a guy advocating the deportation of multiple productive people of American society, purely based on their religious affiliation, afford to display empathy? 

His "I'm a badass!" is an image and being that Trump has been in the business of cultivating an image for several decades, you'd have to take into account his near mastery of manipulating the image he projects. Actions need to be taken into account, to see whether they match up with words. That's the most assured way of separating image from truth. 

Afaik, Trump inherited most of his wealth, most of his business and that forms a big part of why I distrust his claims of being a tough guy. Very little of his business's standing in the world is the result of his own hard work. A ton of it was already there and let's not forget that employees (read: underlings) also form a big part of why an organization manages to stay afloat despite a less than [st]able leader at the front. 

Ambition is what he projects and that is the reason, I have read (in no noteworthy form/place, from here and there, from no reliable source) that he inherited the business as against one of his siblings getting their father's business. I don't see him echoing any of the "You have to take what you want in this world" mentality which is typical of 8. He didn't take anything. It was handed down to him. The self-made man impression is therefore a big lie. 

There was one other thing I wanted to write but I forgot it coz I'm at work right now. I'll share in case I remember. But yeah, my whole point is that Donny can't seem to back up his tough guy act with facts/actions/incidents in his past. All he is is a label, with disgusting amounts of self-importance and smugness oozing from it which reeks image and pride, imo.


----------



## Trent James

I tend to think he is an 8 with 7 wing. So much focus on 'strong' temperament and all the 'unfairness' of things being rigged against him. Very 8-ish to my mind.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

enneathusiast said:


> I've gotta remember that: Donald Drumpf!!!
> 
> Drumpf Towers, Drumpf University, Drumpf Steaks, Drumpf Vodka, Drumpf Airlines...sounds more appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it's strange to me that so many authors use the term "helper" which originated from something the originator of the enneatypes (Naranjo) introduced with regret but then when he corrects that by saying "the helper" is inaccurate people continue to use it as if it's part of some ancient system. There's such a disconnect with the enneatypes in this way. People continue to use terms and concepts that have since evolved because people somehow tap into sources before the corrections and resurrect the misconceptions. E2 as the "helper" and the lines of integration are two such examples.
> 
> I think Naranjo's label for E2 in Ennea-Type Structures as "Egocentric Generosity" offers a needed contrast to type 2 as "the helper."
> 
> 
> 
> My take on the types is that we aren't a single type but a dynamic or pattern between the types. IMO, the dominant type is the one that's primary in that it's served first and foremost. Movement to the other types comes off the primary type so that the primary type is always first and in control behind the scenes. The other types simply are sort of layered on top.
> 
> I don't think it's that type 8 rejects pride but that type 8 remains strong and isn't vulnerable. Type 8 is also direct and not afraid of confrontation or controversy. Donald Drumpf doesn't show ANY vulnerability, empathy, or those things E2 would more freely express. The underlying E8 keeps that from happening and also shapes how he connects with the crowd - through toughness, directness, confrontation, blame, etc.



What do 2s look like then? Do you they look like those crazy, aggressive women from those real housewife shows? lol.


----------



## karmachameleon

FearAndTrembling said:


> What do 2s look like then? Do you they look like those crazy, aggressive women from those real housewife shows? lol.


Nah 2s arent reactive like that =)


----------



## Daeva

karmachameleon said:


> Nah 2s arent reactive like that =)


Oh, they absolutely can be. Hurt that pride and their will be hell to pay.


----------



## enneathusiast

Yasuo said:


> This is the stuff that contributes to the impression that Trump is 8. But that's what I'm saying, it isn't real. All the fearlessness, etc. it's all just bluster.


I think you may be too narrowly focused on just one aspect of your interpretation of type 8. Since you're a fan of Naranjo's work, let me quote from Character and Neurosis about several aspects of Drumpf's character.



> Referencing Reich's description of narcissism as relates to type 8 (p. 131):
> "In everyday life, the phallic narcissistic character will usually anticipate any impending attack with an attack of his own. The aggression in his character is expressed less in what he does and says than in the way he acts. Particularly he is felt to be totally aggressive and provocative by those who are not in control of their own aggression. The most pronounced types tend to achieve leading positions in life and are ill suited to subordinate positions among the rank and file...Their narcissism, as opposed to that of other character types, is expressed not in an infantile but in a blatantly self-confident way, with a flagrant display of superiority and dignity, in spite of the fact that the basis of their nature is not less infantile than that of the other types." He observes too that "relationships with women are disturbed by the typical derogatory attitude toward the female sex."


Regarding narcissism, Naranjo sees different variations of it by different authors. When he ascribes narcissism to a particular type, he references a particular take on it. In other words, he doesn't see narcissism as being applicable to only one type but elements of the different interpretations being more or less relevant to different types.



> Referencing Eric Fromm (p. 131):
> "exploitative orientation"
> ...here the person "does not expect to receive things from others as gifts, but to take them away from others by force or cunning," that "their attitude is colored by a mixture of hostility and manipulation" and that "one finds here suspicion and cynicism, envy and jealousy."


Some examples:
Drumpf is a con man. He manipulates people to take their money. 
He doesn't pay contractors all their money because he feels they've been paid enough or simply stiffs them for some other reason.
He is suspicious and cynical of others and promotes all sorts of conspiracy theories and outright lies.



> Referencing elements of anti-social personality regarding type 8 (p. 132):
> Some diagnostic criteria
> 
> Failure to accept social norms with regard to lawful behavior
> Irritability and aggressiveness
> Failure to honor financial obligations
> Disregard for the truth as indicated by "conning" for personal profit, etc.
> Recklessness
> 
> Some of Millon's elements that served as the initial working draft for "antisocial personality" in the DSM III:
> 
> Assertive self-image (e.g., proudly characterizes self as self-reliant, vigorously energetic and hard headed; values tough, competitive and power oriented life style).
> Interpersonal vindictiveness (e.g., reveals satisfaction in derogating and humiliating others; contemptuous of sentimentality, social compassion and humanistic values).
> Malevolent projection (e.g., claim that most persons are devious, controlling and punitive; justifies own mistrustful, hostile and vengeful attitudes by ascribing them to others).


I've only quoted from 2 of 26 pages from Naranjo's chapter on type 8 so there's plenty more that relates to Drumpf.

It's interesting that the press gave Drumpf a diagnosis of narcissistic personality but missed the antisocial personality diagnosis. IMO, he's an extremely fixated type 8 that has elements of both personality disorders. I'd hate to see him as the most powerful leader in the world and what might happen if something pushed him to an even deeper level of fixation.


----------



## 000

"It's interesting that the press gave Drumpf a diagnosis of narcissistic personality but missed the antisocial personality diagnosis. IMO, he's an extremely fixated type 8 that has elements of both personality disorders. I'd hate to see him as the most powerful leader in the world and what might happen if something pushed him to an even deeper level of fixation."

Same here, and post nails it, imo. The drumpf thing though? His name is spelled t-r-u-m-p


----------



## enneathusiast

000 said:


> The drumpf thing though? His name is spelled t-r-u-m-p


You must have missed my earlier post where I was responding to the John Oliver video (at the end of the video) where he said that the Trump name actually was changed from Drumpf somewhere in the Donald's lineage and Oliver made a huuuge deal about it. I just find Drumpf more appropriate. It takes some polish of the brand.


----------



## 000

enneathusiast said:


> You must have missed my earlier post where I was responding to the John Oliver video (at the end of the video) where he said that the Trump name actually was changed from Drumpf somewhere in the Donald's lineage and Oliver made a huuuge deal about it. I just find Drumpf more appropriate. It takes some polish of the brand.


Yep, I missed that. Fair enough.

Guess it takes a bit off the polish off, lol.


----------



## 000

The theory, that Trump could be a Three...

Just, no. Study Bill Clinton. Through his first term, everyone (congress, media) thought he was a weak president who could be rolled. Who would honestly think Trump is soft? Turns out Clinton was a lot more resilient than they thought. But the difference in styles vs. Trump, couldn't be more different.


----------



## drmiller100

enneathusiast said:


> You must have missed my earlier post where I was responding to the John Oliver video (at the end of the video) where he said that the Trump name actually was changed from Drumpf somewhere in the Donald's lineage and Oliver made a huuuge deal about it. I just find Drumpf more appropriate. It takes some polish of the brand.


So you are being personally insulting to the man to diminish his credibility. Hence the diagnosis as well?

I find posts like these to be less than worthwhile, and a waste. Fits somewhere under the "trolling" category.


----------



## enneathusiast

drmiller100 said:


> So you are being personally insulting to the man to diminish his credibility. Hence the diagnosis as well?
> 
> I find posts like these to be less than worthwhile, and a waste. Fits somewhere under the "trolling" category.


Trump is a brand name that has been misrepresented to mean prestige, quality, success, etc. when in fact the brand has lead to bankruptcy, law suits, investor loss, unpaid financial commitments, etc. I use Drumpf to indicate that I'm not buying into the BS being sold about the brand. If the Donald wants to tie his identify so closely to the brand that the two are virtually inseparable then he leaves little to no wiggle room to separate the brand from the man. He basically presents himself as the Trump brand and subsequently deserves all the associations that go with it and not just those that he's trying to sell me on.

It's sad that my knocking the hypocrisy of the image portrayed by the brand causes you to ignore the facts at hand. I find it a poor excuse to close your mind, but to each their own.


----------



## drmiller100

enneathusiast said:


> T. I find it a poor excuse to close your mind, but to each their own.



That is a personal attack on me, not my opinion or position.


----------



## enneathusiast

drmiller100 said:


> That is a personal attack on me, not my opinion or position.


You'll need to clarify this post you made then.



> _So you are being personally insulting to the man to diminish his credibility. Hence the diagnosis as well?_


I took this to mean that the "diagnosis" from an earlier post of mine lost it's credibility to you because you felt I was personally insulting Donald Trump.


----------



## drmiller100

enneathusiast said:


> You'll need to clarify this post you made then.
> 
> 
> 
> I took this to mean that the "diagnosis" from an earlier post of mine lost it's credibility to you because you felt I was personally insulting Donald Trump.


Yes, using your words, the diagnosis lost all credibility because it is based and wrapped with personal insults. To me, personal insults are a sign the argument is weak and incapable of standing on its own. 

Technically you can personally insult third party people on this site. However, insulting me as a person is against the rules on this site because I am a member here. 

Do you understand the difference? Do you see how you insulted me personally, and do you agree that you probably shouldn't do this again?

I did not attack you as a person. I pointed out the weakness in your method. If you had used a strawman, or some other fallacy I would have pointed that out as well.


----------



## Kintsugi

Donald Trump seems to have what we call a "personality disorder" which makes it hard to type him.


----------



## 000

TheOtherside said:


> Donald Trump seems to have what we call a "personality disorder" which makes it hard to type him.


Heh, don't we all. :dry: But I don't think it's hard to type him in the least.


----------



## enneathusiast

drmiller100 said:


> I did not attack you as a person. I pointed out the weakness in your method. If you had used a strawman, or some other fallacy I would have pointed that out as well.


Give me a break. You basically said I was a troll.



drmiller100 said:


> I find posts like these to be less than worthwhile, and a waste. Fits somewhere under the "trolling" category.


I simply said that I thought you discounting my post because you didn't like that I was knocking the Trump brand was being closed minded.



> It's sad that my knocking the hypocrisy of the image portrayed by the brand causes you to ignore the facts at hand. I find it a poor excuse to close your mind, but to each their own.


So somehow I'm supposed to see how I was wrong to insult you (by saying I think you're being closed minded) and what you said was perfectly innocent (that what I said was worthless and belonged in the trolling category). I've just got nothing more to say about this unless you want to help me understand this back and forth in terms of the 8w7 type because it reminds me of the way Donald Trump responds as 8w7 where someone responding to a veiled insult is somehow the bad guy.


----------



## Kisshoten

enneathusiast said:


> ...


huh, I suppose I should give the book another read. 

Great case, though. Thanks


----------



## drmiller100

enneathusiast said:


> Give me a break. You basically said I was a troll.
> 
> 
> So somehow I'm supposed to see how I was wrong to insult you (by saying I think you're being closed minded) and what you said was perfectly innocent (that what I said was worthless and belonged in the trolling category). I've just got nothing more to say about this unless you want to help me understand this back and forth in terms of the 8w7 type because it reminds me of the way Donald Trump responds as 8w7 where someone responding to a veiled insult is somehow the bad guy.


My words say what they say. You can spin it around and rewrite them in your mind. I never attacked your person. You personally insulted me. Big difference on this site. One is welcomed and rewarded. The other is against the rules as I understand them.

I attacked your position and your arguments. If it helps you understand, I insulted your position and your methods. 

If you would like your arguments to be more credible I suggest you learn the difference. 

In terms of 8w7, I'm in your face, talking to your face, disagreeing with you. As an 8w7, I'm trying to help you learn to be more effective, and whittle and hone your logic skills (a very useful 5 type thing which has a strong connection to 8). I'm doing it dispassionately (like a 5 might), yet persistently, and I do have an interest in seeing whether you are interested in my help (like a 2). 

I'm not playing the victim here. The victim role is a great one for many, but not for me. I'm trying to FIX, and change, and grow you and this site. 

The bashing of US politics is creating dischord and hate everywhere, and I might as well do my part to try to put an end to it where I can.


----------



## enneathusiast

drmiller100 said:


> My words say what they say. You can spin it around and rewrite them in your mind. I never attacked your person. You personally insulted me. Big difference on this site. One is welcomed and rewarded. The other is against the rules as I understand them.
> 
> I attacked your position and your arguments. If it helps you understand, I insulted your position and your methods.
> 
> If you would like your arguments to be more credible I suggest you learn the difference.
> 
> In terms of 8w7, I'm in your face, talking to your face, disagreeing with you. As an 8w7, I'm trying to help you learn to be more effective, and whittle and hone your logic skills (a very useful 5 type thing which has a strong connection to 8). I'm doing it dispassionately (like a 5 might), yet persistently, and I do have an interest in seeing whether you are interested in my help (like a 2).
> 
> I'm not playing the victim here. The victim role is a great one for many, but not for me. I'm trying to FIX, and change, and grow you and this site.
> 
> The bashing of US politics is creating dischord and hate everywhere, and I might as well do my part to try to put an end to it where I can.


Thanks for the 8w7 feedback. The question I have (in reference to you identifying as 8w7) is why is your position put forth as not an insult and OK but you put mine forth as an insult and not OK even though I'm keeping what I say limited to your behavior and not who you are (i.e., I said you're being closed minded in your response, I didn't say you're a closed minded person)? 

(Again, in terms of the 8w7) It's strange to me that what you say is not to be taken personally by me, but what I say is taken personally by you. It seems like two separate standards: one for how you treat me and how I should respond to that vs. one for how I treat you and how you respond to that.


----------



## drmiller100

enneathusiast said:


> you're being closed minded in your response, I didn't say you're a closed minded person)?
> 
> (Again, in terms of the 8w7) It's strange to me that what you say is not to be taken personally by me, but what I say is taken personally by you. It seems like two separate standards: one for how you treat me and how I should respond to that vs. one for how I treat you and how you respond to that.


Ahhhh. Now I understand better. The first 3 words of what quoted above say "YOU ARE BEING". If we read the whole sentence, the obvious to ME interpretation is you are JUDGING ME. Judging me as a PERSON as evidenced by my response. Now that you have rephrased it, I can see your point in how you didn't mean to attack me. Can you see mine??

If you had worded it as "your response is close minded" then all ambiguity would have been eliminated, and that is an ENTIRELY fair argument. And when I think about it, you are probably right. 

Smiles........

TO me, listening and working to understand each other's POV is inherently powerful, and awesome, and worthwhile. Thank you for a great discussion!


----------



## Matejko108

The Perfect Storm said:


> Donald Trump seems to have what we call a "personality disorder" which makes it hard to type him.


exactly. I could see him as a 8 or a 3. 
But he definitely has a narcissistic personality disorder, maybe also anti-social personality disorder. 
And developmentally he is stuck at the stage of a 4th grader. 
So we have to differentiate type, stage of development and pathology. Which is not easy to do with a person you're close to, let alone a celebrity or politician. 

I can see him as both a 3 or an 8, and I can see the case for both. I tend towards 8 though. He is too aggressive, provocative and bold for a typical 3, but he is too much of an insecure bullshit artist to be a typical 8. But all of these things can just be symptoms of his personality disorders and his crippled personal development.


----------



## Matejko108

"what drives donald trump, in his own words, is a persistent, obsessive fear of losing status and being seen in public as a loser" 
that's textbook 3. 
He's not an 8, he's a 3.


----------



## Parrot

Matejko108 said:


> "what drives donald trump, in his own words, is a persistent, obsessive fear of losing status and being seen in public as a loser"
> that's textbook 3.
> He's not an 8, he's a 3.


That's more narcissism. Doesn't mean he isn't still an 8.

I'm a social 7w8, moderately narcissistic, and losing status like that would certainly bother me.


----------



## Endologic

He's an ESTP.

The Enneagram is crack.


----------



## Majority

Trump is neither head type nor image triad. At times he looks a little like a three as he brings out that big, wide smile but his internal mechanism is way different. Threes are at their core artisans. They become, or desire to become, great doctors or surgeons. They master a job, any job, and become people that other look up to for their skill. Trump is not a worker he is a ruler. He is clearly a gut type and just as clearly type 8. 

Going with the suggestion of 6 this doesn't fit. A six, even a masculine six becomes powerful by tricks. They may, for instance, dominate events by dominating the media or the flow of information. They teach or spread the information that benefit them and that control the population by controlling the debate. They become like bishops next to the government, and fight the government for power and achieve this simply by spreading or teaching religion while they themselves achieve high statuses as spiritual teachers chosen by gods. And while there are such head types, or sixes, there is also the head types that go the other way and teach or spread that religion is bogus which once again changes the power dynamics within a society. 

Trump is direct. There is no game. The main confusion is that everyone keep assuming him to be unhealthy, for they don't know what healthy people are like especially healthy people of the counter-flow stackings. They do not recognize Trump as an 8 for they are much more used to seeing the common stacks and perhaps compare him to other 8s that they have known. 

I'd guess that Trump is at health level 4, considering that anything beyond that is or tend to be reserved for those with spiritual pursuit. Meditators in particular. Yet there is something pure about him, and his intelligence is very spot on. "Good instincts". He do reach into healthy expressions of type 8, and the arrogance that people see isn't arrogance, it is the big heart of 8s. They show off with a light heart and jokes, like he did with Arnold Schwarzenegger the other day. Unfortunately Arnold couldn't take a joke . Muhammad Ali was very similar. You could consider him for another 8 with a similar disposition. Not the same but similar. 

Gut types like to show off. 









Note his, trumps, smile in the last seconds. He's playing. AND he is right.


----------



## Majority

About his instincts. Watch this and consider soc last, spsx. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FLo14GMYos#t=3m29s
He is too outspoken for a true politician.


----------



## Paradigm

@Majority I feel like you got the right idea of the types, but refuse to see Trump in any bad light and it will cloud any debate we might have. I'm not trying to say he's all bad or whatever, I try to stay as neutral as I can and admit I don't always stay there, but your logic is also biased in a very positive, pro-Trump way - and I suspect any conversation we might have about Trump ending badly.



charlie.elliot said:


> That's an interesting point to bring in, the competency thing. He certainly doesn't have the ~dignified~ aspect of competency that many 3s (and 1s especially) exhibit. But I think he always goes for the top of whatever he's doing -- running for president case in point-- and brags about how he's the best. He clearly is holding onto a self-image of being quite competent (even if the rest of us would disagree).


Agree, but the self-image of being competent isn't necessarily limited to type 3 (or 1, or 5). In the context of 6, if you read around a bit, you'll see several authors saying that when 6 goes to 3, they will try to scramble around and will try to put off a "I got this" air in an attempt to control their fears. 

Other types will put off a similar air, take 2s: they like seeming in control of things so they'll be able to "help" more (and thus get more "love"). 7s (and 9s) can seem "competent," because others may misinterpret their possible "devil may care" aura. 8 is obvious or has been talked about repeatedly, I feel, considering the topic of the thread. 



> That is very interesting, I'd have to think about it more. What role does narcissism play in type 6-- other than disintegration to 3?


Good question, and something I need to put more thought about. I think some of his might come from a fundamental disconnect from being born into a rich family, but then you could argue that for many politicians of many types, so maybe that's moot. I suppose certain types of CP6s could come off as narcissistic: being closed off to new information, being distrustful, putting/trusting your own self (or family - your "tribe") before others. 

I've been sitting here for a while pondering, coming up with not much than what's already been said. Narcissism is a bit out of the purview of types. Types tend to come off as egotistical more than narcissistic, if that makes sense.



> Well I think when you said "8s come out and confront those thing" is what I meant by "causes". I didn't mean "causes" in the abstract like "save the rainforest!"-- but when they notice a threat, they will stop at nothing to destroy it-- so like you said, you won't be left wondering how they feel about a certain issue.


Ah fair enough, then we were talking about the same thing. Yeah, that's another huge factor in my not-8 idea: they never leave you questioning where they stand. They might change the rules on you without warning, but that's a little different. Trump, relatively speaking, hasn't told us much of anything; he's always hiding something.


----------



## charlie.elliot

Just watched an interview with David Muir (ABC host) from Jan 26th....



> Trump: I can be the most presidential person EVER. Other than... possibly... the great Abe Lincoln, alright... I can be the most presidential person.
> 
> Muir: Your predecessor used to talk about finishing the day to get to his family upstairs... the stairwell is right over here... to have dinner with them. And I know that the first lady Melania has a big job back in New York taking care of Barron.
> 
> Trump: She does, yes.
> 
> Muir: Does it make it a lonely place for you at the end of the day?
> 
> Trump (with finality, walking away): No, because I end up working longer, and that's okay. I'm working long hours.


He also said the word "success" twice in the first sentence. 

I know one quote doesn't prove anything, and after all, its just talk-- but the way he says "success" constantly, the way he is constantly saying he's the best at literally everything, the way he is constantly using superlatives when describing himself-- 

"Nobody respects women more than I do"
"I understand the tax laws better than almost anyone" [this one might be true...]
"I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth"
"Nobody knows banking better than I do"
"I understand money better than anybody"
"Nobody knows more about trade than me"
"Nobody in the history of this country has ever known so much about infrastructure as Donald Trump"

I mean, obviously you don't have to be a 3 to be a narcissist, but isn't this his most distinctive personality trait-- and a textbook example of the way 3s brag about themselves? I really can't see what would motivate any other type to act this way.

And just in case any 3s are reading this-- I love you, and I don't think you're as shitty as Trump, he's incredibly unhealthy and like I said, anyone as unhealthy as he is would be equally as terrible, just in a different way...

* *


----------



## charlie.elliot

P.S. also watching another interview of him bragging about how he was the "first ever" to hire a woman in some specific position while building his tower-- he's so proud of it-- and he has "tremendous amount of women working for him, at top levels" -- when we all knows he doesn't give a shit about empowerment for women. He's just saying it because the interviewer started off clearly wanting him to say he respected women. So he automatically pulls out the "I think I was the first, ever" line... when clearly he knows no such thing.
Oh, and remember him pretending to be a *Christian* to pander to the evangelicals, who he knew would vote for him? When every action he does is the least Christian thing ever. 

Vanity. Deceit. 



* *





the first one I mentioned--






pretending to be Christian-- (not sure what all the annoying laughing is for)


----------



## FearAndTrembling

throughtheroses said:


> I take back everything I've written on this subject. Donald Trump is, without question, a counter-phobic 6w7 and an ESTJ. Case closed.



No. the guy is loyal to nothing and changes with the wind. Not a 6.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

charlie.elliot said:


> Just watched an interview with David Muir (ABC host) from Jan 26th....
> 
> 
> 
> He also said the word "success" twice in the first sentence.
> 
> I know one quote doesn't prove anything, and after all, its just talk-- but the way he says "success" constantly, the way he is constantly saying he's the best at literally everything, the way he is constantly using superlatives when describing himself--
> 
> "Nobody respects women more than I do"
> "I understand the tax laws better than almost anyone" [this one might be true...]
> "I know more about renewables than any human being on Earth"
> "Nobody knows banking better than I do"
> "I understand money better than anybody"
> "Nobody knows more about trade than me"
> "Nobody in the history of this country has ever known so much about infrastructure as Donald Trump"
> 
> I mean, obviously you don't have to be a 3 to be a narcissist, but isn't this his most distinctive personality trait-- and a textbook example of the way 3s brag about themselves? I really can't see what would motivate any other type to act this way.
> 
> And just in case any 3s are reading this-- I love you, and I don't think you're as shitty as Trump, he's incredibly unhealthy and like I said, anyone as unhealthy as he is would be equally as terrible, just in a different way...
> 
> * *



That is classic SP lower Ni. Believing in every conspiracy there is. Thinking everything is rigged. Painting in massively broad strokes and not knowing the details of anything. Extroverted Sensor. Probably ESTP.


----------



## charlie.elliot

FearAndTrembling said:


> That is classic SP lower Ni. Believing in every conspiracy there is. Thinking everything is rigged. Painting in massively broad strokes and not knowing the details of anything. Extroverted Sensor. Probably ESTP.


Of course.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

charlie.elliot said:


> Of course.



Not sure if serious but all those exaggerations fit into what I am talking about. I mean, all the claims the guy makes that turn out to be dead wrong. And he just keeps on trucking. It doesn't matter.

And I want a reason to post this gif. lol. O'Donnell and Trump. The epitome of obnoxious New Yorkers. And I love when he brought up Bill Clinton's affairs when Hillary went after him about women. lol. And even brought some of Bill's accusers to the debate. You could hear a rat piss on cotton when he went after Bill Clinton. lol. Imagine how Billy Bob must have felt. Awkward for everyone. Bill Clinton is basically an admitted sex offender. He has had settlements with these women. I think that says enough.


----------



## Paradigm

FearAndTrembling said:


> No. the guy is *loyal to nothing* and changes with the wind. Not a 6.


Oh not this again. I had thought this stereotype died out on PerC by now.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Paradigm said:


> Oh not this again. I had thought this stereotype died out on PerC by now.



What stereotype? All types are stereotypes. 

For example, Malcolm X is often typed as 6. Malcolm X always refers to something larger. To a higher authority. He is a servant of Elijah Muhammad. He is just a soldier in that army. From what I have read he is classic 6. Need structure to maximize their talents. They don't act like Trump does.

6 is like independence within structure. Punk rock. Punk rock guys are not sheep but they belong to something and are true to it. Punk is 6.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

@*charlie.elliot*, Trump is a pathological narcissist, but that isn't the same as Type 3. 3s hide their true selves, like all heart types, out of shame. Seriously, what is Trump hiding about himself (besides his tax returns lol) in terms of identity? He's pretty shameless. He doesn't have the "image" of a 3 that seeks to be the "best," because what is "best" for a 3 is tied into the expectations of society. Trump could care less. He's going in with the lowest approval rating of any incoming President, and I doubt that bothers him very much. No 3 would act the way he does, or let it get as far as he did to have the lowest approval rating. They'd start changing their image if it didn't get approval, "Oh, I think they'll like this..." An example of this would be Marco Rubio, who I think is a 3, and started to say towards the end of his run that Trump has small hands as a way to get more votes/approval. Trump hasn't changed his image at all. He's just been the same loud, boisterous Trump from day one. 



> The problem is that, in the headlong rush to achieve whatever they believe will make them more valuable, Threes can become so alienated from themselves that they no longer know what they truly want, or what their real feelings or interests are. In this state, they are easy prey to self–deception, deceit, and falseness of all kinds. Thus, the deeper problem is that their search for a way to be of value increasingly takes them further away from their own Essential Self with its core of real value. From their earliest years, as Threes become dependent on receiving attention from others and in pursuing the values that others reward, they gradually lose touch with themselves. Step by step, their own inner core, their “heart’s desire,” is left behind until they no longer recognize it.
> 
> 
> Threes report that when they realize to what extent they have adapted their lives to the expectations of others, the question arises, “Well, then, what do I want?” They often simply did not know; it was not a question that had ever come up before. Thus, the fundamental dilemma of Threes is that they have not been allowed to be who they really are and to manifest their own authentic qualities. At a young age, they got the message that they were not allowed to have feelings and be themselves: they must, in effect, be someone else to be accepted. To some degree, all of the personality types have been sent the same message, but because of their particular background and makeup, Threes not only heard it, they began to live by it. The attention they received by performing in a certain way was their oxygen, and they needed it to breathe. Unfortunately, it came at a high price.


And look at Rubio, perfect smile, perfect hair. Image. Who wouldn't like me? 










And then you've got Trump...










I posted on an earlier page of Trump saying, "I don't put on any airs." An average 3 would never openly admit that because that's exactly what they do, and they wouldn't want anyone to know it either. 

Another thing that points away from 3 is that Trump is _very_ reactive, and 3s aren't even a reactive type. That's Types 4, 6, and 8.


----------



## Paradigm

FearAndTrembling said:


> What stereotype? All types are stereotypes.
> 
> For example, Malcolm X is often typed as 6. Malcolm X always refers to something larger. To a higher authority. He is a servant of Elijah Muhammad. He is just a soldier in that army. From what I have read he is classic 6. Need structure to maximize their talents. They don't act like Trump does.
> 
> 6 is like independence within structure. Punk rock. Punk rock guys are not sheep but they belong to something and are true to it. Punk is 6.


Most references go over my head, sorry :\ I ignore a lot of media and such.

The problem with saying what you did is the fact that _you have no idea_ if he does or does not feel "loyal" to anything. You're not in his head. Maybe he follows what his parents did. Or some books he read. He could very well follow his own personal creed, too - many 6s do that. (Hi.) His age lends itself even more to a mish-mash than to "structure," as does his lower Ni that you proposed. (And Ti being favored. He does show a lot of classic Fi "blind spot," iirc.)

Even if you want to insist 6s need perceived structure, he _is_ working within the structure available. Business and law? It's hard to get more structured than that, outside of STEM! Many argue his picks are anti-"drain the swamp," as well, which is "establishment" or whatever. (I'm not a fan of many of his picks, for personal reasons, but I have no opinion on if they are anti-establishment or not.) But then you could argue that business and law are fluidic, unstable; that his picks are "anti-establishment."

So... Much like everything else, it comes down to how you perceive what he's doing.

I still think outsiders can't perceive a lot of 6's so-called "loyalties," though.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

FearAndTrembling said:


> What stereotype? All types are stereotypes.
> 
> For example, Malcolm X is often typed as 6. Malcolm X always refers to something larger. To a higher authority. He is a servant of Elijah Muhammad. He is just a soldier in that army. From what I have read he is classic 6. Need structure to maximize their talents. They don't act like Trump does.
> 
> 6 is like independence within structure. Punk rock. Punk rock guys are not sheep but they belong to something and are true to it. Punk is 6.


Yeah, that's another reason why Trump isn't a six/head-type. He isn't ideological. A 6 would be like Steve Bannon and his alt-right movement. Trump plays by his own rules.


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Core is 8... too impractical to be a 6. I see 8, 3 and 6/7 in him...


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Paradigm said:


> Most references go over my head, sorry :\ I ignore a lot of media and such.
> 
> The problem with saying what you did is the fact that _you have no idea_ if he does or does not feel "loyal" to anything. You're not in his head. Maybe he follows what his parents did. Or some books he read. He could very well follow his own personal creed, too - many 6s do that. (Hi.) His age lends itself even more to a mish-mash than to "structure," as does his lower Ni that you proposed. (And Ti being favored. He does show a lot of classic Fi "blind spot," iirc.)
> 
> Even if you want to insist 6s need perceived structure, he _is_ working within the structure available. Business and law? It's hard to get more structured than that, outside of STEM! Many argue his picks are anti-"drain the swamp," as well, which is "establishment" or whatever. (I'm not a fan of many of his picks, for personal reasons, but I have no opinion on if they are anti-establishment or not.) But then you could argue that business and law are fluidic, unstable; that his picks are "anti-establishment."
> 
> So... Much like everything else, it comes down to how you perceive what he's doing.
> 
> I still think outsiders can't perceive a lot of 6's so-called "loyalties," though.



Nobody is in anybody's head. The fact is that Malcolm X had to be dragged to the fact that the Nation of Islam was corrupt. He truly believed in it and was loyal to it until it was no longer possible. Trump sheds his skin every week. There is no comparison. Regardless of type, I can safely say that one believes in his cause more than the other.

Trump is the biggest bandwagon jumper, Malcolm X was a rock. He was also cerebral like a head type and used his mind. Trump does not.


Trump's song. lol. Basically he is Fi polr and has no heart. Even his evil deeds have no passion. 






My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock

And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their schemes
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my dreams​


----------



## Majority

TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Core is 8... too impractical to be a 6. I see 8, 3 and 6/7 in him...


I see 8 and many including me notices 3 so 8 and 3. For head I would suspect 7. Making have a 'mover & a shaker' according to fauvre. Tony Robbins is another but with 3 first. 

I don't see the heaviness of 5. Don't see much that indicates 6 either. He is more like a visionary and fun, as he imagines and lays out how he is gonna build a wall. It's gonna be beautiful, a beautiful wall, big wall, with a beautiful door for legal passway. 

Then if his core is 8w7 that would give a little 7 influence. Still I feel that 378 is a good tritype match. Not sure what 368 is called, justice fighter? 378 rings true.


----------



## Paradigm

FearAndTrembling said:


> Nobody is in anybody's head. The fact is that Malcolm X had to be dragged to the fact that the Nation of Islam was corrupt. He truly believed in it and was loyal to it until it was no longer possible. Trump sheds his skin every week. There is no comparison. Regardless of type, I can safely say that one believes in his cause more than the other.
> Trump is the biggest bandwagon jumper, Malcolm X was a rock. He was also cerebral like a head type and used his mind. Trump does not.


I think you're underestimating the power of doublethink and narcissism, to be honest. The human mind is amazing at rationalizing for itself, and few actually grow out of that (let alone try to actively avoid doing it). 

Your point overall is good, I just disagree with the conclusion. And I try to never type by such strong comparisons, so I'm not going to weigh in on that.



TheDarknessInTheSnow said:


> Core is 8... too impractical to be a 6.


Since when is practicality dictated by type? 

Like pretty much the only time I've seen this argument used is for ExTJs, and even that's debatable and off-topic. Isn't a point of the Enneagram that every type is deluding themselves of something in some fashion?


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Paradigm said:


> I think you're underestimating the power of doublethink and narcissism, to be honest. The human mind is amazing at rationalizing for itself, and few actually grow out of that (let alone try to actively avoid doing it).
> 
> Your point overall is good, I just disagree with the conclusion. And I try to never type by such strong comparisons, so I'm not going to weigh in on that.
> 
> 
> Since when is practicality dictated by type?
> 
> Like pretty much the only time I've seen this argument used is for ExTJs, and even that's debatable and off-topic. Isn't a point of the Enneagram that every type is deluding themselves of something in some fashion?


As a four, my number one critique of the sixes in my life are their security and practicality. It's a vibe that is specific to my perspective... 

From the Enneagram Institute that really describes what I mean from my four perspective: 

"Generally, Fours are more interested in self-exploration and self-development and they tend to be more adventuresome in their tastes and in what they allow themselves to think and to experience. Sixes tend to be more conservative and resistant to change and to personal exploration, making for potential conflict with Fours, who may feel that Sixes are holding them back and stifling their creativity and development."

You don't understand how frustrated I actually get, since I attract a lot of sixes. And I have a 6 fix in me, so I even see it strike my four-ness down sometimes. Like just play it safe. But ideally, I hate playing it safe. I like to flirt a little with everything I'm doing. 

"Fours typically have about Sixes is that they are not free-spirited and romantic enough" YES YES YES, I just wanna free some of my six friends into the direction I think they should be going in. But they really don't agree and don't see themselves restricting themselves...


----------



## TheDarknessInTheSnow

Majority said:


> I see 8 and many including me notices 3 so 8 and 3. For head I would suspect 7. Making have a 'mover & a shaker' according to fauvre. Tony Robbins is another but with 3 first.
> 
> I don't see the heaviness of 5. Don't see much that indicates 6 either. He is more like a visionary and fun, as he imagines and lays out how he is gonna build a wall. It's gonna be beautiful, a beautiful wall, big wall, with a beautiful door for legal passway.
> 
> Then if his core is 8w7 that would give a little 7 influence. Still I feel that 378 is a good tritype match. Not sure what 368 is called, justice fighter? 378 rings true.


Agree completely. I think he politically attracts some sixes with his paranoia, but in his personality directly, I see 7 with a 6 wing more than a 6 with a 7 wing. So I think 8w7, 7w6, and 3w4. I think he's way too explorative and risky to have a 6 fix. And you're right, it's like he's having fun while aggressively defending himself and maintaining a successful, results-oriented image. Now that I think about it, he's not aggressive enough to be an 8. Yet he's willing to engage in fights and quickly oppose others and defend himself ruthlessly in a very outlandish way. I really feel he's a 387 or 378 now.

Look what I just read that seems scary accurate. There's definitely 8 and 3 in him:

"eight with a three fix: the notably success oriented, prominence seeking eight. utilizes
image and manipulation to advance their career or enterprise.
business achievement can lead to political aspirations."


----------



## mushr00m

> People whose dominant Harmonic approach is the reactive approach are emotionally reactive under stress. They tend to work themselves up when a problem happens and have a hard time containing their feelings. This emotional intensity allows them to feel the "realness" of the problem, even if it is a relatively small one. Venting their frustration allows them to move on to dealing with the issue. Wanting others to see the realness of the problem, they expect others to react emotionally. Such a reaction would confirm that others agree that indeed this is a big deal. If others don't respond in the way the Reactive approach types want, they may become even more frustrated and emotional.
> The Reactive approach is not naturally trusting of others. They have strong opinions and tastes and want to know where others stand.
> 
> Their desire for a strong emotional response from others may be a test of trust.


This is roughly why Trump may be a reactive type, not the best descriptor but an okay general one. Look into his recent statements at his being challenged over the immigration ban. He wants his concerns mirrored. It actually seems rather manipulative where he deflects criticism of his policies. Sometimes, im not actually sure how he will react. He did respond in a very calm manner at being banned from addressing the houses of commons, which btw, only two presidents have actually addressed in it's history. He does want others to agree with him and his responses at disagreement are interesting to say the least.


----------



## mushr00m

More.



> The gut triad deals with issues of anger and autonomy. The emotion of rage is most pronounced in this triad, though it is only directly expressed in 8. For ones, *the anger gets manifest as righteous indignation*, and for the nine it gets denied and repressed, only coming out when they're pushed too far. There was a sense in childhood of not being able to assert one's space, and so *there's a sense of needing to carve out a space for oneself in the world.*"* There's an acute awareness of one's body, and a key theme of being in opposition to the environment. There is a strong impression of "this is me, this is where I am" and "this is the other, this does not belong to me*.* For the eight, there's an awareness this is a strange, new land which one needs to conquer in order to be certain to have a place for oneself. The boundaries are asserted in the most aggressive manner possible. For the one, there are a lot of strange customs and equally strange natural impulses that come up. They don't want their internal boundary disrupted, so they scan the new place, hold back and compare it to where they were from, their own customs and sense of right and wrong,* fearing if they ease up, they may lose control of themselves and have their inner boundaries permeated. Type nine will adapt to the new environment with seeming ease, while part of them remains disengaged from it.





> The reactive types tend to want to get a reaction from others. When a reactive type is upset, they don't want the other person to stay calm. *They want to see their negative emotions mirrored by others. They are often referred to as the "truth tellers of the enneagram" for the simple reason that reactive types can pick up on the more troubled aspects of a situation before other types do.* If the positive outlook types err by focusing too much on the positive, reactive types can err by focusing too much on the negative. What they're seeing may, in fact, be there, but what comes across as barely perceptible to other types comes across like a flashing neon sign to the reactive types, and it's very difficult for them to not address it.


Source

And you can see how 1 and 8 can get mixed up with the righteous indignation also appearing in the expression of Trump's values. 

The emboldened section in the second paragraph, you can find evidence of this with his reform of NY, his casino business. See HyperNormalisation which goes into this side of Trump in his career.

But I may have to adjust what I said above about Trump being a hard and sure reactive type. He definitely has the positive outlook stance to what he says at least. He talks about the problem addressed albeit simplistically. How reactive he is, is questionable.
And is he consolidating power for him AND his team or for himself? How much is Steve Bannon being delegated here?


----------



## angelfish

Paradigm said:


> Before your edit, I was a little concerned you hadn't exactly understood my point on how Se/Ni affects 6, but you do seem to have an idea. I have a hard time relating to many 6s, while also relating to them quite a bit - I'm not sure if it's my MBTI or Sp/Sx or what, but it's there. (I have a hard time relating to INFJs, too. The Ni-Ti loop can drive me crazy.) Anyway tbh I don't have much to add tonight, just wanted to put this out there.
> 
> Oh fwiw I don't think I was taking about your post with the spoiler but the one before that. On mobile and it's a bit annoying to go check, sorry :/


Oh, no problem, phone browsing is never easy it seems. I think I may share some of your feelings, whether for the same reasons or different ones. Something about 6 seems to complicate our wiring, sharpen our edges, create more echoes in the chambers of ourselves, something. It is like there is "more" there with other 6s, so there is more to relate to and to not relate to. Like an elevator with mirrored walls creating endless small worlds... the overactive mind. 

I also have a hard time relating to a fair amount of INFPs, which I have assumed is mostly because I don't seem to have a lick of 4 in me, though most INFs, maybe even NFs, seem to. Sorry about the edits, anyway... I feel like I could do and re-do edits for hours and perhaps never really express myself quite right. Which seems like an ironically 4ish thing to express, doesn't it.

As for 6 and Ni/Se... I wish I could step behind Ni/Se eyes for a while. I can conceptualize it, to a certain extent, and parrot that, and in rare moments I think I see the flash of illumination. But it is never continuous. 



mushr00m said:


> He definitely has the positive outlook stance to what he says at least. He talks about the problem addressed albeit simplistically. How reactive he is, is questionable.


My personal opinion would be that he is a reactive type and that simplifying tactic is easily explained by narcissism, since it is at core a protective mechanism to make one feel comfortable and confident despite fragile self-esteem.


----------



## Quernus

Perhaps this has been posted, I've not gone through the whole thread. But it is a speech and Q&A session by the guy who wrote Trump's "autobiography", and who spent much time with him getting to know him over several years. If it's true, I think it lends plenty of insight into Trump's personality (though none of it surprises me/could have gotten by anyone paying attention, anyway). 

Pretty sure the speaker is a Four, as an aside. I kept saying that to my partner while we watched and he didn't really care so now I am saying it here. :wink:


----------



## series0

I would say he is 8w7, 3w2, 6w7


----------



## CelineDijon

He's very VERY whiny for an 8. Are 8w7's usually this whiny when criticized? 

He instantly goes to twitter to tell the media they're being unfair and nearly cries about everything. Doesn't seem like 8 energy to me. Most 8's I've known don't give you any type of reaction to criticism. They don't give a shit unless you're their family member/some other loved one/relationship partner. 

He's a brat imo.


----------



## o0india0o

This drives me _crazy_ (as I've seen just about everyone type Donald Trump 8w7). I feel he doesn't vibe Type 8 to me at all. He's whiny, narcissistic, not all that intimidating (heck- he's actually kind of a wimp imo), cares about appearances, seems narcissistically wounded (& needing badly of love), manipulative, craves and absorbs the spot-light and attention, and on, and on.

He seems more interested in having others worship and adore him, give him attention and validation, than he takes action or gets anything done (Type 8's seem to get down to business; that is not the case with The Donald).

He strikes me as a Type 3 (a *super* unhealthy one of course).

*Edit*: I'm going to add a Tritype guess ... _3w2 7w8 8w7_

Edit Edit: I cannot decide between Type 6 and Type 7 for a head-fix. There is an awful lot of fear under-currents in Trump (latching on to conspiracy theories, and looking for the approval of that alt-right broadcaster he watches).


----------



## o0india0o

charlie.elliot said:


> @Tega1 @Paradigm
> 
> I agree with you both, I've never thought he was a type 8- I've always thought of him as a type 3. I mean, I can certainly see _why_ people think he's a type 8. But to me, he has the soul of a 3. Image, attention, that's literally all he cares about. Saying just the right thing to get people to pay attention. I've argued this before, probably on this thread, so sorry if I'm repeating myself. But I would expect an 8 to have some cause they were really passionate about, and that's just not the case with Trump. He is not really truly passionate about anything-- except himself. All his so-called "causes", i.e. his campaign promises, were made up on the spot, because he could sense that's what people wanted to hear. He doesn't really give a shit.
> Eights, on the other hand, _deeply care._
> 
> And yes, you'd _think_ a 3 would dress better and do their hair better, etc... But it has come out how alarmingly thin-skinned he is, and how he really does care about his appearance... I mean, the whole blonde thing thing might be his _attempt_ at personal vanity... and he got pissy about pictures that made him look fat or whatever. Would an 8 do that?
> 
> I never considered type 6 for him but its an interesting idea ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> I don't want this to sound like I'm ripping 3 apart :/
> I really love 3s... but if Trump really is a 3, he's the absolute _worst_ and _unhealthiest_ 3 there ever was... and anyone at unhealthiest level of their type would be equally horrible, just in a different way. "Sad!"
> 
> 
> 
> LOL no he didn't
> 
> 
> [edited to add quote]


Couldn't agree more with all of this. roud:


----------



## Mr. Meepers

I am honestly surprised he is typed so much as an 8, but not so much as a 3. (Really I am surprised he is not typed as 3 more often)

To me, Trump's anger seems kind of fake and flimsy. I don't think he acts based on anger.

To me, he seems to care very much about how others see him (what his image is) and that seems to be his main motivation too. He talks about being "the best". "the greatest", and he talks about his accomplishments (real and imagined) throughout his life. He wants people to love him for his greatness and crowd size. I don't think he even cares what policies he passes (although he probably prefers that they benefit him), as long as he gets something through and accomplished. I see him as being all about "winning" over substance.

Because of that, I think he is more of a very unhealthy 3, than an 8.


----------



## charlie.elliot

Wow I'm glad I'm not the only one! I get absolutely no 8 / body type vibes from him at all. And body type vibes are pretty easy to pick up on.


----------



## Winter Queen

ESTP 8w7 Sp. I thought he was a social 8 on his campaign, but Katherine Fauvre, the founder of tritype, made a good case for him being a self-preservation 8 and I saw no reason to question her expertise on the matter. She talked about his desire to build large buildings, a wall, a large military and how he reacted to 9/11 happening in his city.


----------



## enneathusiast

I was going back and forth on so/sp and sp/so during the campaign but to see him as president the way he isolates himself, creates boundaries, makes unilateral decisions, and seems frustrated with having to build consensus makes sp/so seem obvious. I think I heard Condon put him at sx-first though which seemed odd. 

I'm sticking with 8w7 on type. The seeming 3-ness had me a little confused but the more I looked into it the more I saw that as unhealthy 8 aspects. He's definitely an impulsive gut decision-maker, to a fault.


----------



## Brains

Someone's put it well: "3s can't escape polish." Trump is not polished. He may care about his appearance, but does he do much about it? Nah. Not to that extent. He dresses well technically, it's a suit, but just evidences a certain degree of blindness or lack of caring by his own actions. I've wanted to look good for years but only "grew eyes" for personal aesthetic and dressing better in the last year or so. And I still fall short of my brother who when he took up dressing well became Mr. Polish in short order.


----------



## charlie.elliot

People on this thread convinced me a couple months ago that he wasn't a 3, mainly due to comments like this one -



Brains said:


> Someone's put it well: "3s can't escape polish." Trump is not polished. He may care about his appearance, but does he do much about it? Nah. Not to that extent. He dresses well technically, it's a suit, but just evidences a certain degree of blindness or lack of caring by his own actions.


But that doesn't mean I think he's an 8.

So, I thought myself, what other options are there? Then, I thought- SEVEN. That seems the most likely possibility to me at the moment. 

-he has a short attention span
-7s can have problems with narcissism
-I could see his desire to be president as a thought process of "I'm bored, what else could I do?!"
-but now he's whining because it's boring and too much work
-7s can have that charisma and way with words that he _apparently_ has (according to his voters... )
-7s have an attraction to business/ marketing (he's not good at it, but it IS his profession, and he does have wet dreams over how good he thinks he is at it)
-his interaction with political issues seems 7-ish. He doesn't really understand them and doesn't really care about their seriousness, but he can still _talk_ about them, in a way that makes people pay attention (unfortunately)
-were he not corrupted by greed, narcissism, cruelty, and a fundamental lack of self-worth that drives him to demand attention at all costs, I could see him being a fun guy, playing around with the kids, firing up the grill, making jokes, etc. He seems playful at heart, despite his grouchy expressions [we're seeing him in an incredibly stressful time, after all]. 

Ok guys, I've pretty much convinced myself. Idk about 7w8 or 7w6 but I could go with 7w8 to satisfy the 8ness that people apparently see in him. 

Being a head type seems so much more likely [head types at their worse of course] -- he's flighty, insincere, two-faced-- nothing like the deep/ [obsessive] sincerity, gravity, and purpose of body types. 

And I deeply apologize to any 7s reading this, I love you and I think you are wonderful, Trump is extremely unhealthy and doesn't have anything to do with who you are a person, Hitler was an INFJ so its all good <3 lol


----------



## Figure

He is definitely a type 8. I'm not sure why people are seeing 3. 

I think Trump is a Social 8, and that some of the "3-ish" concepts stem from his awareness and interest in what other people are doing. He is engrossed, even now, with public messaging. He is obsessed with ratings, having a direct public voice via Twitter, and was savvy enough with masses of people to pick up on the midwest anger as well as how to leverage it. His brand is plastered to the highest, most prominent buildings in powerful cities with big bold "TRUMP" letters. 

His rationale for wanting to be the President touches the lower side of type 2's pride - "things are very bad now, and I'm the only one who can fix it, I'm the last hope" but hits the attacking side of 8 more often. 

The whiney, pouty, complaining is *very* typical of 8's when they are attacked. I don't think people realize how pathetic 8's look when they are attacked and too fixated within their type. They are attempting to emulate strength because they _are_ weak and just like any other type the type structure is a flawed means to that. It is very common for 8's to bite off more than they can chew, have vulnerability surface, and deny their way through it all. That is all very evident in the hyperactive work Trump says he is doing at 3AM, leaks, and denial to the media of late. It's also evident in the crude means of overpowering people like "low energy Jeb Bush" and "Crooked Hillary." 

One of the biggest tipoffs of 8 to me is that he moves at a pace too rapid and impulsive for his staff to keep up with, and puts a sort of barrier around himself such that they can't keep in constant touch. This leaves his presidency without a message or narrative, and a sort of crudeness. 3's do move rapidly, but are frequent communicators. And little that a 3 does will be seen as "crude" or lacking a narrative. This is their strong point. 


As for 3's: 

One of the key earmarks for type 3 for me is a smooth, composed, non-objectionable presentation (sometimes alongside actions that are extremely objectionable). They typically hide comments and stances that are unsavory to a given audience they are seeking to impress, and do that very well. They usually have a careful strategy, calculate well, lie smoothly, and look like they have everything together or at least make extreme attempts at that when it isn't the case. They even look precalculated. It is very rare that their appearance, facial expressions, movements, and otherwise persona are anything but composed and synchronized. Maitri uses the word "steely." 

There are a lot of 3's in US politics (though I think, a higher number on the liberal side). Bill Clinton and Joe Biden are 3's. Susan Rice is a 3. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (DNC), Robby Mook (Hillary's campaign manager), George Stephanopoulos, Kathleen Sebelius (the healthcare.gov lady) and many others in the liberal cast of characters are 3's. Paul Ryan is an excellent example of a Social 3, as may be Ted Cruz ("Lying Ted"). Rand Paul also strikes me as a more technocratic type 3. I used to think Mike Pence was a 6, but now lean towards 3 for him as well. Same with Mitt Romney.



Interestingly, there is not one single person in Trump's inner circle other than perhaps Pence that I would type as a Competency type. I think the mainstream media, and insiders are used to a more Competency triad approach to politics.


----------



## o0india0o

Brains said:


> Someone's put it well: "3s can't escape polish." Trump is not polished. He may care about his appearance, but does he do much about it? Nah. Not to that extent. He dresses well technically, it's a suit, but just evidences a certain degree of blindness or lack of caring by his own actions. I've wanted to look good for years but only "grew eyes" for personal aesthetic and dressing better in the last year or so. And I still fall short of my brother who when he took up dressing well became Mr. Polish in short order.


I would argue that *caring* at all about appearance is a key indicator. I don't think it says anywhere that Type 3's must dress well (though, many of them do). It's more that they must care about their appearance (& President #45 does). Whether a Type 3 gets the "polish" you speak of correct or not, often, it is the fact that they are obsessively managing their appearance in all aspects of their life (wanting to seem "successful", better than others, competent, etc...) that is the tip off to me.

My mother is an unhealthy Type 3, and she was not able to pull off the "polish" while she was at rock bottom health. At lower health levels, image types become less about embodying the image they want (at least in any real way), and more about convincing others (& themselves) that they are that thing. They do less to uphold that image with any real substance, and more advertising and asserting of their image. I find this is not as true of SX-dom Type 3's (who tend to get heavy into plastic surgery the more unhealthy they get- which can kind of be an example in itself, as they start to look a bit alien), but as a possible SP-dom Type 3, it is completely plausible.

For example, when Melissa McCarthy began playing Sean Spicer on SNL, someone close to Trump mentioned that he didn't like it, because he didn't like when "his people" appeared weak. I recognize that not wanting weakness seems 8-ish, but what struck me, is the emphasis on the word "appear". Sean Spicer is pretty weak. That doesn't seem to bother Trump. What bothers him, is if he *appears* weak. Appearance. Appearance. Appearance.


----------



## o0india0o

You said a lot of good stuff there: that I'm not going to argue with.

But...



Figure said:


> [...] and Joe Biden are 3's.


You take that back*!* I've seen Joe Biden typed as 7w6;; & I like the idea (& agree with said idea) that Joe Biden belongs with us Type 7's. :tongue:

*EDIT:* I do want to say, that the "steely" bit you mentioned is very persuasive (though;; I'm not ready to accept a Type 8 typing of #45 just yet). Type 3's do tend to become less and less emotional as they cascade through the health levels;; sort of robotic and plastic-y. True. True. This obviously does not fit The Donald ... but I never imagined a Type 8 to seem so ... _weak_.

Edit Edit: But what about "_narcissistic rage_" when people don't agree or reinforce the mask/image an image type is projecting*?* Isn't that a thing*?* A lot of his anger and irritation comes in direct response to assaults on his *image*.


----------



## o0india0o

charlie.elliot said:


> People on this thread convinced me a couple months ago that he wasn't a 3, mainly due to comments like this one -
> 
> 
> 
> But that doesn't mean I think he's an 8.
> 
> So, I thought myself, what other options are there? Then, I thought- SEVEN. That seems the most likely possibility to me at the moment.
> 
> -he has a short attention span
> -7s can have problems with narcissism
> -I could see his desire to be president as a thought process of "I'm bored, what else could I do?!"
> -but now he's whining because it's boring and too much work
> -7s can have that charisma and way with words that he _apparently_ has (according to his voters... )
> -7s have an attraction to business/ marketing (he's not good at it, but it IS his profession, and he does have wet dreams over how good he thinks he is at it)
> -his interaction with political issues seems 7-ish. He doesn't really understand them and doesn't really care about their seriousness, but he can still _talk_ about them, in a way that makes people pay attention (unfortunately)
> -were he not corrupted by greed, narcissism, cruelty, and a fundamental lack of self-worth that drives him to demand attention at all costs, I could see him being a fun guy, playing around with the kids, firing up the grill, making jokes, etc. He seems playful at heart, despite his grouchy expressions [we're seeing him in an incredibly stressful time, after all].
> 
> Ok guys, I've pretty much convinced myself. Idk about 7w8 or 7w6 but I could go with 7w8 to satisfy the 8ness that people apparently see in him.
> 
> Being a head type seems so much more likely [head types at their worse of course] -- he's flighty, insincere, two-faced-- nothing like the deep/ [obsessive] sincerity, gravity, and purpose of body types.
> 
> And I deeply apologize to any 7s reading this, I love you and I think you are wonderful, Trump is extremely unhealthy and doesn't have anything to do with who you are a person, Hitler was an INFJ so its all good <3 lol


I saw 7w8 as possible in Tritype (especially the SP-dom 7w8 con man aspects); & I agree with many of your assertions. His entrepreneurial-ness, and businessman stuff, also corresponds to Type 7w8; as well as the narcissism.

But he doesn't seem playful enough to me, to be a Type 7.

Just my thoughts, but I like a lot of your points. 

*EDIT:* I just imagine an unhealthy Type 7 would have fun while watching the world burn. :laughing:


----------



## Dangerose

o0india0o said:


> I would argue that *caring* at all about appearance is a key indicator. I don't think it says anywhere that Type 3's must dress well (though, many of them do). It's more that they must care about their appearance (& President #45 does). Whether a Type 3 gets the "polish" you speak of correct or not, often, it is the fact that they are obsessively managing their appearance in all aspects of their life (wanting to seem "successful", better than others, competent, etc...) that is the tip off to me.


I mean...because style is not universal and people have different ideas of what looks good and different skill sets, of course all 3s don't 'objectively dress well', also I think that all people want to dress well especially if the CEO of a big company, president of a country...not doing anything for your appearance in this case would be a HUGE statement. But with 3s...well, I've yet to meet a 3 who...even if I personally don't like their style, doesn't give off a vibe like they know exactly what they're wearing and exactly why, which isn't the vibe I get from Trump. :/ I mean, with 3s the image is woven into minute of every day, they don't forget and remind themselves that there's a certain reputation they want to maintain, with Trump I never get the idea that he's thinking about appearance, image all that often, as a separate thing maybe, he definitely thinks about how people are going to react to what he says and does but not really how he, Donald, is going to come off. 



> My mother is an unhealthy Type 3, and she was not able to pull off the "polish" while she was at rock bottom health. At lower health levels, image types become less about embodying the image they want (at least in any real way), and more about convincing others (& themselves) that they are that thing. They do less to uphold that image with any real substance, and more advertising and asserting of their image. I find this is not as true of SX-dom Type 3's (who tend to get heavy into plastic surgery the more unhealthy they get- which can kind of be an example in itself, as they start to look a bit alien), but as a possible SP-dom Type 3, it is completely plausible.


I agree about image types but I think when it comes to the polish it's a lot more than pure appearance. I don't know a 3 who doesn't...hide their opinions, feelings, thoughts, very naturally, feel very uncomfortable sharing them...my brother will vent like once a month to me, everything he's been chewing over that month...but in a real-time situation he'll almost never jump in with 'oh but I think-' or 'yikes what are you doing', I have a 3 friend who got really mad at me for being at a party and getting into a big discussion of the nature of morality with a guy there, because she 'wanted us to talk about party things', endless sense of 'the right thing at the right time', 'place for everything and everything in its place', Trump doesn't seem to have any sense of that; he says what he wants and tries to strategize with it but, I think, usually about a second later does it occur to him. Like "oh here's a cannon huh I should face it at the enemy'



> For example, when Melissa McCarthy began playing Sean Spicer on SNL, someone close to Trump mentioned that he didn't like it, because he didn't like when "his people" appeared weak. I recognize that not wanting weakness seems 8-ish, but what struck me, is the emphasis on the word "appear". Sean Spicer is pretty weak. That doesn't seem to bother Trump. What bothers him, is if he *appears* weak. Appearance. Appearance. Appearance.


I can't tell if this is a verbatim quote or someone else's interpretation, but I see 'I don't like it when my people appear weak' as a 6 statement above all, then 8. It's military, it's clan-ish, and I don't think it's focused on image-type type of appearance.


----------



## Figure

o0india0o said:


> You said a lot of good stuff there: that I'm not going to argue with.
> 
> But...
> 
> 
> 
> You take that back*!* I've seen Joe Biden typed as 7w6;; & I like the idea (& agree with said idea) that Joe Biden belongs with us Type 7's. :tongue:


I can see why people type him as a 7, but he spends a lot of time and personal association being the ideal champion of the underdog, white working class, the "kid from Scranton" and what not. He strikes me as a SX 3 in that way - it's a type whose image is of being the energetic ideal, as saying or doing anything to be the ideal person champion for another person/people. 



> I do want to say, that the "steely" bit you mentioned is very persuasive (though;; I'm not ready to accept a Type 8 typing of #45 just yet). Type 3's do tend to become less and less emotional as they cascade through the health levels;; sort of robotic and plastic-y. True. True. This obviously does not fit The Donald ... but I never imagined a Type 8 to seem so ... _weak_.
> 
> Edit Edit: But what about "_narcissistic rage_" when people don't agree or reinforce the mask/image an image type is projecting*?* Isn't that a thing*?* A lot of his anger and irritation comes in direct response to assaults on his *image*.


Yes, but every type has a self image. 

Donald Trump's ideal image is one of "winning." Winning is often associated with type 3, but for 3's it's a moniker for success, looking good, getting things done, and being noticed, loved, and elevated in the limelight. If that was what Trump cared about, he would probably be a bit more careful that what he says and does aligns with a more approval-sure persona. 

Winning to Donald Trump is more implicit in, you lost because you were weak/lacked energy/were too soft/can't do things as fast or easily as I can. Winning is having the "great health care" he brought in when "Obamacare is a disaster" and it was the democrats' fault/weakness that caused it to happen. It's "doing what took Obama 3 months to do in 2 minutes." Winning to Trump is synonymous with showing that someone else was weak and he was strong. He may tell lies and such to the media, but his presentation tells no lies. When he wins, he boasts; when he loses, he either boasts some more, or has a temper tantrum. 

This also stands in contrast with 3's, who often take silver lining behind failure to narrate true failure into a win rather than outright deny a loss or, even worse, respond emotionally in public to it. 3's are certainly competitive, and would not in any way want to be seen as weak but would be well aware that simply telling someone "my healthcare is great" isn't really selling a personal brand, nor does it show/lie to show that progress and movement has been made. In a 3's world, you can hate someone and compete with them, but should really still at least smile and make it look like you're cool. Not being able to articulate your plan and its details, attacking the former President, firing your FBI director without sweetening the message is poor form.


----------



## mistakenforstranger

enneathusiast said:


> Just ran across this interview with Tony Schwarz (he spent a lot of time with Trump in private as a ghost writer for "Art of the Deal") where he discusses the psychology of Donald Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's also interesting about Schwartz is that he wrote a book titled "What Really Matters" in 1996 that had a chapter called "Personality and Essence" in which he writes about the Enneagram.
> 
> What I found most interesting in the video was when it was pointed out how Trump often seems to be describing himself when he's saying things about others (e.g., Comey is a showboat and grandstander). I've noticed for some time now how he does that (most people simply call it being hypocritical but I think it's more than that). I'm not sure if that has anything to with Enneagram type though. It seems like a projection of himself onto others and then a justification for taking action against that projection.


Nice video! Trump is an 8, and that video speaks to him being one too. See the part at 4:25 and read this:



> The Soul-Child of Enneatype Eight (Point Two)
> 
> *Within the tough and no-nonsense Eight who delights in testing her grit and that of others, dominating and controlling life, and triumphing over any adversity lies a needy, clingy and lonely little Two-ish soul child who is desperate to be loved and held.* An Eight's soul child wants to snuggle up to others, getting as close as possible, and can be insistent and demanding about it. Beneath an Eight's show of strength is this soul child who is filled with all of the emotions she considers weak- needing others, fearing rejection, insecurity, and a deep sense of sadness and loneliness. With the sense that her contactful and loving qualities were not wanted as a child, an Eight reacted by essentially saying "Fuck you!" to everyone she felt dependent on, and set out to prove she didn't need anyone or anything. *She hid what felt like her vulnerable soft underbelly behind a veneer of callousness and in the process closed down her openness and receptivity.*
> 
> 
> As an Eight contacts the defensiveness behind her pride and the sense of rejection and neediness that underlie it, it may feel as though her whole world will collapse. *She has done everything she can to not experience these "weak" places in her soul and often feels she will not survive (In the video, they talk about him being in survival mode) if she allows them to emerge.* As she lets herself contact her neediness and pain, her heart can open again and her soul can become permeable. She can be touched once again, and as she contacts reality with less and less of a thick and defended skin, she will gradually feel more connected with life. Instead of trying to wrestle life for what she needs, she will find her soul relaxing, melting and merging with her essential nature, whose honeylike nectar fills her soul in the form of Merging Gold. Instead of fighting with reality, she will be united with it; and as she progressively surrenders more and more fully to his Being, she will find fulfilment and loving union rather than the capitulation she had feared.


Riso-Hudson:



> In short, Eights tend to grow up quickly, and *survival issues* are foremost to them, as if they were asking, "How can I--and the few people I care about--survive in a cruel, uncaring world?"


And don't forget, Trump is a Reactive type (4, 6, or 8). See 0:20 in video. 7s and 3s are not reactive types. I'd consider 7w8 before 3w2, because I could see the argument that he's a Positive Outlook type, "So-and-so is great," or "I'm going to be the best jobs creating President," etc, but again he is so reactive. I think a 7w8 with his kind of power/brand (before becoming President) would be someone like Hugh Hefner. Trump certainly has a 3w2-fix too, but I can't see it as his core type.


----------



## enneathusiast

Here are some excerpts from an article by Tony Schwarz about Donald Trump that seem relevant. You can read the full article here.



> Three decades ago, I spent nearly a year hanging around Trump to write his first book, “The Art of the Deal,” and got to know him very well. I spent hundreds of hours listening to him, watching him in action and interviewing him about his life. To me, none of what he has said or done over the past four months as president comes as a surprise.





> Early on, I recognized that Trump’s sense of self-worth is forever at risk. When he feels aggrieved, he reacts impulsively and defensively, constructing a self-justifying story that doesn’t depend on facts and always directs the blame to others.





> To survive, I concluded from our conversations, Trump felt compelled to go to war with the world. It was a binary, zero-sum choice for him: You either dominated or you submitted. You either created and exploited fear, or you succumbed to it — as he thought his older brother had. This narrow, defensive outlook took hold at a very early age, and it never evolved. “When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now,” he told a recent biographer, “I’m basically the same.” His development essentially ended in early childhood.
> Instead, Trump grew up fighting for his life and taking no prisoners. In countless conversations, he made clear to me that he treated every encounter as a contest he had to win, because the only other option from his perspective was to lose, and that was the equivalent of obliteration.





> With evident pride, Trump explained to me that he was “an assertive, aggressive” kid from an early age, and that he had once punched a music teacher in the eye and was nearly expelled from elementary school for his behavior.
> Like so much about Trump, who knows whether that story is true? What’s clear is that he has spent his life seeking to dominate others, whatever that requires and whatever collateral damage it creates along the way. In “The Art of the Deal,” he speaks with street-fighting relish about competing in the world of New York real estate: They are “some of the sharpest, toughest, and most vicious people in the world. I happen to love to go up against these guys, and I love to beat them.” I never sensed from Trump any guilt or contrition about anything he’d done, and he certainly never shared any misgivings publicly. From his perspective, he operated in a jungle full of predators who were forever out to get him, and he did what he must to survive.


 @charlie.elliot
Regarding what you said in an earlier post:


> I've also not read his book (and I don't think I could ever bring myself to bother to... why waste that much of my life?)


Here's an article you might like:
I just binge-read eight books by Donald Trump. Here’s what I learned.


----------



## CelineDijon

I just can't imagine an 8 taking up so much time on Twitter whining about people treated them wrong or bad. Seems really pathetic.


----------



## Brains

CelineDijon said:


> I just can't imagine an 8 taking up so much time on Twitter whining about people treated them wrong or bad. Seems really pathetic.


Eights can be really pathetic. Everyone can.


----------



## brightflashes

I just re-read Helen Palmer's chapter on 3s and I'm not so certain that he's an 8. The best way I could explain would be by copying and pasting the whole chapter (which I will not do), but there were some interesting cases and defense mechanisms that she brought up that were compelling. For example, the difference between the real self and the ideal self is rarely detected in a 3 (who hasn't done any self evaluation, that is). It seems like Donald Trump thinks he's a caricature of success and perfection and even if people try to explain, using evidence, that something is not what he thinks, he dismisses it because only he really knows what's true. 

hmm. Interesting to think about.


----------



## enneathusiast

Just ran across an article detailing how Trump fits Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It's amazing how well the writer explained pretty much every aspect of his personality with it (though I'm not sure how much was interpretation and how much was directly from the diagnosis criteria and such). The article is obviously biased against Trump but I hope Trump voters can keep an open enough mind to read it for the psychological analysis.










I think the Narcissistic tendencies are what keep me wondering about how type 3 fits in with Trump (and I imagine what keeps some other people wondering as well).


----------



## CelineDijon

Yeah, I agree that he doesn't have 8 energy as other commenters said. His energy is sporadic and whiny and easily upset and offended. Maybe more to do with how he grew up, I guess. But I think he's more into being adored and praised and having the spotlight than any 8 I've ever known or interacted with. They like genuine compliments and are not the slightest bit into flattery for the sake of it. If he is an 8, he has to be the most pathetic and whiny and petty 8 I've ever seen. If you want to see an 8 in politics look at Franklin Roosevelt. Notice the difference between the two. Trump is much more sporadic. When Roosevelt spoke it was in a ''I have conviction in what I'm saying'' kind of way. When Trump speaks it's almost always light hearted jokes and trying to entertain. I don't see any 8 energy. Not that 8's are serious all the time, but Trump is only serious about how he feels about something someone said about him. Cmon.. Look at Lyndon Johnson, another 8 (imo) he speaks in a slow, present, grounded type pace and he has that charisma that 8's often have. This quiet confidence. 8's don't need to announce how strong they are, people just sense it. That's what Trump lacks. He has to manufacture his strength.


----------



## typethisperson

Trump is a 3w2 ESTP with an 8 fix which can seem like 8w7s cause ESTPs like ESTJs, ENTJs and ENFJs are choleric types.


----------



## CelineDijon

I don't think he's a 3 either. Hes more likely an immature/grew up entitled 7w8


----------



## Judson Joist

If President Trump truly want to be more like Ronald Reagan, he needs to ditch the narcissism and the tendency toward autocracy. Reagan surrounded himself with experts in fields beyond his own aptitude and realized that he needed them for effective leadership.


----------



## Spirited

ESTP 8w7 Sx/So sounds right to me.

I'd argue that Sx 8's are generally more competitive and narcissistic, which is why they may sound similar to 3's in terms of behavior. But the motivations are totally different, a 3 fears failure more than anything else, and I don't think Trump fears failure as such. To be honest I'd say he's so self-confident that he doesn't even think about it, he just acts.


----------



## Apple Pine

No good reason not to think he cannot be type 3

His whole life is about external image, rather than having/showing power. He controls businesses etc. just so he can do whatever he thinks necessary to look cool. 

The way he talks. It's very much about impressing people. 

If you wanna see 8s, watch house of cards. The main character. Now, that's type 8. Power hungry. Works, does not care about the image at all, almost.


----------



## CelineDijon

I'd argue that 3's are way more competent than Trump. They are very professional. Not sure where people are getting 3 from. While 3's enjoy compliments and feeling like they are acknowledged for their accomplishments, they aren't like Trump in the sense that Trump is at heart an entertainer. I still say 7. Not that 3's can't be entertainers, but Trumps energy is 7. I don't know how people can't see it.


----------



## typethisperson

then mabye he's a cp6w7? they tend to look like 8s don't they?


----------



## CelineDijon

Anyway, I think the guy should get a haircut already.


----------



## typethisperson

^ you should totally play Jesus anyway... the fact that people think he's a 8 just shows the misinformation there are being spread about 8s. Too many cp6s out here posing as 8s.


----------



## CelineDijon

Jesus was an entitled jerk.


----------



## typethisperson

really? i thought he was a selfless guy that gave all he had to the poor people?


----------



## CelineDijon

Yeah but only because he thought we'd serve and worship him after it's like when somebody gives you something you didn't ask for then expects you to do them a favor after


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## Paradigm

CelineDijon said:


> I'd argue that 3's are way more competent than Trump. They are very professional.


While 3s _desire_ to be competent, sometimes they just aren't. Sure, wanting being seen as competent is part of the type, but that doesn't mean one has to be exactly successful at it to be a 3.

As for professionalism... No, that's just for some 3s. Most of the time their behavior reflects what they chose to succeed at. And sometimes they fail at that, too. 

And anyway, the likelihood he has some kind of mental disorder like narcissism means he probably sees himself as both of those things while failing utterly. 

PS: I'm not saying if he is or isn't a 3, 'cause I'm really past caring. But I like talking types.


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