# ESTP, ENTP = Most psychopathic



## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

I'm sure this thread was made few times but this is the thread to truly close the case.

I am talking from looking at the traits and also from my own experience as someone with ASPD, I would test either as ESTP or ENTP but typed by many other people as ENTP.

Some parts of Intuition don't add up at all with psychopathic people, that is long term goals, there might be a goal infront but there won't be anything like "In 5 years i will do this and that". When asked "Where do you see yourself in 10 years" my reaction usually is "No where, i'm not a prophet".

Another thing that lines up with ESTP and ENTP is a big one, being cold and detached while portraying yourself a certain way to gain benefits, obviously for an ASPD it will be much more complex and extreme but the idea is still the same and unlike many of the autists, such individual will know exactly how others tick, how to make them feel certain things, they will be social predators.

There will be disregard for tradition and rules, thrill seeking behaviour etc.

Many also argue ENTJs can be most psychopathic, but i don't see it at all, ignoring all the whole cold harshness you will be left with nothing that resembles psychopathy.

There are also people claiming that FPs can be psychopaths, there is literally not a single possibility that anyone remotely high on psychopathic spectrum would be an F. I am of course talking about primary psychopathy.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

I don't know how to say this nice, but from my own experience, I agree.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Ksiaze said:


> I'm sure this thread was made few times but this is the thread to truly close the case.
> 
> I am talking from looking at the traits and also from my own experience as someone with ASPD, I would test either as ESTP or ENTP but typed by many other people as ENTP.
> 
> ...


What is the "unnice" version?


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ksiaze said:


> What is the "unnice" version?


I could go on a rant if you want.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> I could go on a rant if you want.


Sure, let's see what is on your mind.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ksiaze said:


> Sure, let's see what is on your mind.


I feel like your Op is very diagnostic, talking about symptoms of ASPD and all that. It feels like so many words are used to say that EXTPs have the capacity to just suck as people. And in my experience with a number of both types, I agree, these people can suck as people. Some have no sense of how to treat people properly, I mean basic things. And if they are 7w8 they probably are a little sadistic "7w8s like to play rough and often enjoy pranks or practical jokes that cause the "victim" a little bit of pain." define a little bit, explains what I've seen with some folks in this type. Before learning MBTI the words socio and psychopath crossed my mind with a few individuals of this type, simply because of their complete lack of understanding why someone shouldn't treat someone else the way they did, like the idea that their action was clearly wrong is completely lost on them, it is shocking to see and does make you question the humanity of a person for a split second, wondering whether the person even has a soul, and psychopath was the only explanation for the lack. 

Connor Macgregor, great example, he throws a hand truck through Khabib's (his opponent) tour bus injuring Khabib's friend. Then When Khabib confronts him in the ring Connor in all sincerity says "it's only business." as if to be forgiven for putting someone's life in danger, on top of slandering the man's religion, country and father. The edgy troll trolled too hard and expects forgiveness, take some responsibility for once.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Ksiaze said:


> There are also people claiming that FPs can be psychopaths, there is literally not a single possibility that anyone remotely high on psychopathic spectrum would be an F. I am of course talking about primary psychopathy.


I know one. She's an ENFP (self-claimed, tested and I also agree). She doesn't deny she meets the criteria for ASPD, NPD & probably another 'cluster B' (she thinks this is funny). 

This is a person who told someone sleeping over at her place that she feels like chopping them up into little pieces. Fortunately the worst she did to that friend was set her hair on fire and hit her. Without any doubt, that ENFP is a psychopath. 

I don't see how being an F type would preclude a person from being a psychopath. I don't believe MBTI & personality disorders are so neatly correlated (her XSTJ parents have both got issues too). Although I'll note she's an _unhealthy_ enneagram 7 (but then, of course she is, she's broken).


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Predation is grounded in introversion, as well as manipulation, but when the introvert also happens to be an F-tard, they become so uninhibited that the resulting impulsiveness passes for some flexibility, because they can seem to change their plans very easily and disregard people's expectations and the risks. But what matters is how much they tolerate when something else contradicts their plan : not in the least. That's when the extraverted facade ("P" in MBTI jargon) collapses. Extraversion IS the tolerance for being contradicted, something psychopaths don't possess. ENTPs don't disobey to make their own rules, they disobey to figure out and follow better rules. They question the arbitrariness, the subjectivity, of human rules. ENTPs don't like to cause troubles but solve them. We are scientists, artists, philosophers, we want to understand how the universe works to adjust ourselves to it. Not to exploit and destroy it. We are no predators and opportunists.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Predation is grounded in introversion, as well as manipulation, but when the introvert also happens to be an F-tard, they become so uninhibited that the resulting impulsiveness passes for some flexibility, because they can seem to change their plans very easily and disregard people's expectations and the risks. But what matters is how much they tolerate when something else contradicts their plan : not in the least. That's when the extraverted facade ("P" in MBTI jargon) collapses. Extraversion IS the tolerance for being contradicted, something psychopaths don't possess. ENTPs don't disobey to make their own rules, they disobey to figure out and follow better rules. They question the arbitrariness, the subjectivity, of human rules.* ENTPs don't like to cause troubles but solve them.* We are scientists, artists, philosophers, we want to understand how the universe works to adjust ourselves to it. Not to exploit and destroy it. We are no predators and opportunists.


Sure. You think the troll stereotype came out of nowhere?


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Predation is grounded in introversion, as well as manipulation, but when the introvert also happens to be an F-tard, they become so uninhibited that the resulting impulsiveness passes for some flexibility, because they can seem to change their plans very easily and disregard people's expectations and the risks. But what matters is how much they tolerate when something else contradicts their plan : not in the least. That's when the extraverted facade ("P" in MBTI jargon) collapses. Extraversion IS the tolerance for being contradicted, something psychopaths don't possess. ENTPs don't disobey to make their own rules, they disobey to figure out and follow better rules. They question the arbitrariness, the subjectivity, of human rules. ENTPs don't like to cause troubles but solve them. We are scientists, artists, philosophers, we want to understand how the universe works to adjust ourselves to it. Not to exploit and destroy it. We are no predators and opportunists.


To be honest, i would label psychopathic people ambiverts, since there is no need or desire to be around people, one can go a long time without much of socialization, constant masking also tires you out so after a while you need to take a break. But it's not your typical introverted type because in a social situation psychopathic individual will thrive, be highly energetic , thrill seeking , extremely talkative etc.

Manipulation does not matter in I or E, since both can be manipulative but what makes a psychopathic person manipulative is the ability to blend in, while lacking many feelings an individual like that can APPEAR warm, friendly, loving, caring, empathic, whatever it takes. Isn't that what also applies to ESTP and ENTP? obviously not even to that extreme but the core principle seems to be there.

A psychopathic person adapts well , there is coolness under pressure and not many feelings involved so adapting comes easy, it has nothing to do with being impulsive. If something contradicts their plan, what we care about is what the plan is, what is there to achieve, if i have a goal i want to reach and you will stand in my way, why would i back out or change my route ?

If i deem the the goal important and you are in the way, it is only smart to remove you from my way, how do you do that? You pick the least resistiing route, first you try to tell the person please don't ruin my plan , please mind your own business okay? (most people will back off) if they don't, you intimdate them or hurt them, not for fun but for them to move away.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Dare said:


> I know one. She's an ENFP (self-claimed, tested and I also agree). She doesn't deny she meets the criteria for ASPD, NPD & probably another 'cluster B' (she thinks this is funny).
> 
> This is a person who told someone sleeping over at her place that she feels like chopping them up into little pieces. Fortunately the worst she did to that friend was set her hair on fire and hit her. Without any doubt, that ENFP is a psychopath.
> 
> I don't see how being an F type would preclude a person from being a psychopath. I don't believe MBTI & personality disorders are so neatly correlated (her XSTJ parents have both got issues too). Although I'll note she's an _unhealthy_ enneagram 7 (but then, of course she is, she's broken).


Don't listen to some girl claming to meet criteria of things, she sounds like she has ego problems and loves to get a boost, being considered psychopathic is not just about meeting criteria of ASPD, that would be too simple.

Also, ASPD is a behavioural diagnosis and psychopathy is considered a "sub type", it is marked by emotional deficiency, no depression, sadness, joy, anxiety, fear, empathy, conscience, no love, no need for admiration, natural confidence etc. An individual like that is highly objective and logical. Psychopathic person doesn't do things for their own emotional gratification beacuse emotional range is extremely limited, things are done based on how efficient, useful, logical and beneficial they are, no emotions involved. I score 100% on T.

Your friend just sounds like an edgy girl. Chopping people to pieces does not = psychopathy.

If anyone wants to see a good mask off psychopathic portrayal , check out Anton Chigurh, little to no emotions, of course the coin stuff shit is made up but the rest is pretty spot on.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

Ksiaze said:


> To be honest, i would label psychopathic people ambiverts, since there is no need or desire to be around people, one can go a long time without much of socialization, constant masking also tires you out so after a while you need to take a break. But it's not your typical introverted type because in a social situation psychopathic individual will thrive, be highly energetic , thrill seeking , extremely talkative etc.
> .


Except that extraversion is not gregarious. The attitude of consciousness is only about habit reinforcement/change. The MBTI is a pretty shitty test that doesn't measure the attitude within its E/I scope of symptoms. Introversion is reinforcing habits, prognoses, reactions. Aka sticking to one's own plan as long as you like it. If you expect something to happen and you'll do everything so that it does, this is introversion. Extraverts change their plan, not everything around. If something gets in the way, they do something else, completely. They accept that they won't have what they wanted.

Jung had the terrible idea to think sexuality as the product of extraversion, whereas by his own definition, the reproduction of oneself, spreading one's habits in the environment, is the fact of introversion. From this point, the self proclaimed scholars developed a definition of extraversion based on this fallacy.



Lord Pixel said:


> Sure. You think the troll stereotype came out of nowhere?


Came out of people mistyping themselves and writing dumb books and websites about it.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord Pixel said:


> Sure. You think the troll stereotype came out of nowhere?


reminds me of this

if you spend sometime in the ENTP forums reading old threads you'll see many people who are like this one, shitposting as ENTPs but having different types in their profiles, prob because they realised eventually they're a different type, it's fascinating


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

There is a reason why stereotypes exist. 

The issue here is that i'm talking about "real" introversion and extraversion, meaning, nothing more than does a person gain energy through interaction or by being in their own thoughts, applying other theories to it that are not connected in any way for example "if you expect something to happen and you will do whatever it takes to make it happen, that's introversion" , this just complicates things and makes the whole theory very unreliable.

ENTPs are not psychopathic , they're simply more psychopathic than other types, they seem to have most of the secondary type as impulsivity, boredom, starting things and never finishing them, loose ethics, don't really care about tradition or social norms as much as other types, they tend to be manipulative and are seen as they wanna be seen.

Now, if i take functions and just overall meaning of the function and how they interact, the biggest issue is Intuition.

N - What makes one intuitive, is it the ability to read social situations, motives, meanings, to be attracted to theory or is it about being focused on the future and having future goals.

To a psychopathic person, art is just that , art, it's a painting, nature is just bunch of trees, greens and some sky, music is bunch of notes and lirycs that sound nice with no deep connection.

There is no deep meaning to life, there is no purpose to life, things are what they are. As i talked to other ASPDs who were on the psychopathic spectrum, it seemed like it was consistent for all of us, once you're high enough on it, there is a clear disconnect between you and the world.

Then we have another core trait which is lack of realistic long-term goals. Basically, there is no detailed map of planning for your general future, it's just blank.

That is not intuition, that's sensing, so the question is, what does it truly take to be considered intuitive? Because maybe we are looking for the wrong thing.

Assuming that is sensing quality, ESTP imo would be the most psychopathic. Thrill seeking, outgoing, spontanous, logical, focused on what is going on now rather than what will happen in 5 years, hedonistic.


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Lol. He's back.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Ksiaze said:


> A psychopathic person adapts well , there is coolness under pressure and not many feelings involved so adapting comes easy, it has nothing to do with being impulsive. If something contradicts their plan, what we care about is what the plan is, what is there to achieve, if i have a goal i want to reach and you will stand in my way, why would i back out or change my route ?
> 
> If i deem the the goal important and you are in the way, it is only smart to remove you from my way, how do you do that? You pick the least resistiing route, first you try to tell the person please don't ruin my plan , please mind your own business okay? (most people will back off) if they don't, you intimdate them or hurt them, not for fun but for them to move away.


adapting by changing the environment (i.e. other people/s choices) instead of your plan is literally "J" in the MBTI
adapting by changing your plan is P


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Red Panda said:


> adapting by changing the environment (i.e. other people/s choices) instead of your plan is literally "J" in the MBTI
> adapting by changing your plan is P


It is not about what you prefer but rather what is the logical solution. If my plan works i won't change it just because you are in my way, i will remove you, if my plan needs adjusting, it will be adjusted. The point is to get things done with least effort and in most efficient way.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Ksiaze said:


> It is not about what you prefer but rather what is the logical solution. If my plan works i won't change it just because you are in my way, i will remove you, if my plan needs adjusting, it will be adjusted. The point is to get things done with least effort and in most efficient way.


and that's what J is about


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## onLSD (Jul 28, 2019)

Ksiaze.

Youtubing:
7 Signs You're Dealing With a Psychopath

Sooo basically society is full of psychopaths...

Oh. You certainly are triggering psychopaths here. Even a few narcissist on board, I see. Nice job there.

Psychopathic researchers found that psychopaths often have these common traits:

Lack of empathy, guilt, conscience or remorse
Shallow experiences of feelings or emotions
Impulsivity and a weak ability to defer gratification and control behavior
Superficial charm and glibness
Irresponsibility and a failure to accept responsibility for their actions
A grandiose sense of their own worth

I had an enfp wife. She is slightly different as she is 7w8 and sx first instead of the casual 7w6 sosx. Sure, she would have the ballz to push the anvelope. And way beyond I ever belived she could. But no. That is nowhere near psychopathy.

scienceofpeople. com/psychopath/

This one is good too, just that it managed to confuse psychopathy with sociopathy.

Robert D. Hare is the best on the theme

And lastly. A professional dealing with this type of specimen on youtube.
Narcissist, Psychopath, or Sociopath: How to Spot the Differences

"My brother is a psychopath. You would like him. He excelled in sports, has many kids, a 5mil home, owner of a small biz and coaches high school football. Haven't seen the dude in a very long time, never will I see him again, either. Psychopaths must practice their fake emotions and manipulative tactics throughout childhood on . . . . . . somebody".

Had a friend once who would doubt she was psychopathic. She was that not, just narcissistic. And why. Bc she was confused as a child by others about what is worthy and what is not worthy for gettin attention. There I was, thinking to myself, I love her, I really, really do, but she is gonna go after anything that will drop out of the tree for the harder to get type of attention; so I had to make her let me go. 

Would estimate its a year or two now since that occured. Not sure of her type, mightve been ENTJ sxso 1w9? Really lovable, really profound, aesthetically pleasing, elegant, intelligent, even wise and delicate person. Outstanding potential in every sense there is. Even desire to learn the missing components. Self actualisation all the way, non stop. Id say in the very top 5 Ive ever even known. Really awesome girl. Just that she would need that monkey branching for the rest of her life (and gossiping), which aligned not with my needs. After all, that is how self entitlement works. I miss her mind often. I miss her a lot since my divorce, too. But its better as it was decided to be. As she would never understand my reality. While for me hers is just so easy. Even a delight to watch those dreams coming true slowly yet surely. It warms me up inside out to know she is having it the right way. Neutrality is her sense of peace. And that is fine by me as I havent been there for ages to restabilize that higher with higher lows. I used to have her at love, in love and loving all the time bf I decided to let her go. 

It ripped my heart away to see her drop into the less than love. But it was too much for me to bear, to have her needs for attention validated all the time by everyone at all. The narcissism means to need for approval of own selfworth all the time. Its this really, really low real self esteem disguesed as superiority complex that is needing to be pampered endlessly, and the less the person gives it, the more the narcissist will want it. Sure, the overall life-expectancy potential will outcome into the casual lesser, but the internal shall compensate for the lack of the external.  After all, love is all that matters. And if neutrality is love to her, then its nothing short of a sane affirmation that the cut off had to be made via her own "free" will.

Psychopaths..They make other people do it for them. Just like with sociopaths. Those two are the ultimate leader of sickness, first will use and ditch, the latter will reuse & recompensate to have it all under control. Both of us are nothng short of sick. But perhaps God will help that. That is my only shot.

And Jaws.
No. The OP guy is not me. There are others who can see your ASPD-psycho stuff too - and link it correctly to xstp. The difference between me and the OP person is that that person is clearly normal, while Im this sociopath .. thing. So he wont do no manipulation to gain advantage nor to use people for mutual benefit, or like you do for personal goals/pleasure solo. So what puzzles me is, how can this person know so accurately to associate the genetic permutation with that type? Talented, intelligent and fiesty little fucker. I actually respect the skill set here. This person will go far in life.

If he helped me with my depression too, thatd just be the ultimate thrill.

But my sadness... Im telling you Jaws. Even estp's will give a forcepsed labour to temporary empathy when they see how increbilely miserable I can become in just one second. I can literally drop from reason to apathy and suicidal even, in a snap, just like that. If Im thinging that I can not do much to get the humanity out of their misery, I makes me wanna drill a hole in some tree, and fuck it till I die from too much ejec.t.culation. That cold hole shall be my last mistress, my last lover, my last GF, my last wife and my first tree with a pair of fake tits. Small, C75 size fake tits. But man, you know, they feel almost real. You have them there in your face, thinking what a neat form. But then suddenly you realise, its just fucken silicone you are having that frection with, and then the meltdown starts. But then you think, who the fuck cares anyway about anything meaningfull anymore. And you just close your eyes, and imagine grasshoppers on a tractor to last 30-45mins longer than usually, meaning a full 31-46min.. And then at one point, you think to yourself, that it be nice for her not to ask it havin it up her arse this time. As the smell will always be there no matter what hygine methods are being used. And also, you hope for the anal part not to take place, because its really not that nice to have someone havin it painfully when the idea is pleasure. As there obviously is no real love involved if pervesions are required to keep thinks tickin.

Its somewhat interesting to have all these posh ladies from Helsinki, Moskow, Stockholm, Oslo and so on.. They send these mast videos to try to turn me on before, too. But they are so full of pride man. They think they are somesort of goddesses, when all they are are mainly 9.00-9.33, 9.50/10 at best. I havent had a pure tenner since I dont even remember when. Almost two months now! But I couldnt do the lesbian stuff man anylonger. A man needs his sleep and health. I dont care how much I lack that instinct, I need my health. That was just insanely addictive. No sane man can ever refuse them when they start to physically fight about who hops on it first. It was pure lust.

But I tell you something Jaws. I been on this philantropy project during the last years. Just trying to help out random strangers on the streets of London (and few from originally online too). Just give life changing advice, offer support to their dreams, connect them with their dream person and so on. And doing that, seein their smiles, seeing their sadness go away, and just being a bit happier after the interaction and during any form of worldy intervention actually makes my day, my psycho friend who know my pain better than anyone here on the PerC. After all you know me from 2010 dont you. We talked before anomalia. We talked and talked. And what the conclusion was again. "You fuck or you dont, the time the willy works is limited". 

Anyway.

Why do we have to go extinct again on my watch here? Why will the A.I. take over more than certainly. Why does everyone behave like wed have more than 6.9 years to go here? I dont know. What I know is that I have some tortellino's on the pan right now, and in around, what is it, 12mins Ill do something so many other people on this Earth can not, unfortunately, do. EAT.

And that is the only remaining satisfation I anylonger have it seems, to eat. Just like a pig that I am.


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## onLSD (Jul 28, 2019)

Sometimes. When I really think about it. Taking in consideration what is about to happen to all humanity. Even a socio-psychopath is a warm thing.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

IDontThinkSo said:


> *Came out of people mistyping themselves and writing dumb books and websites about it.*


You can say that all you want, until you've seen it in person, consistently. To act like the stereotype is completely off is just ignoring it exists because, idk, that's what you choose to do. I've seen, dealt with and still see it too much to ignore it. Even other ENTPs have acknowledged this about ENTPs. I've heard the trolling nature comes from their desires to change what is normal, that also includes people's states and reactions and world views, and I heard this affect of change they make gives them pleasure, hence the trolly nature, and a sadistic ENTP getting pleasure out of causing someone pain because of the "change" they affected. I've known people like that and have been trying to understand people who I know who are like that and that explanation gave me clarity as to how someone can enjoy effing with people essentially.



Red Panda said:


> reminds me of this
> 
> if you spend sometime in the ENTP forums reading old threads you'll see many people who are like this one, shitposting as ENTPs but having different types in their profiles, prob because they realised eventually they're a different type, it's fascinating


Spend some time with ENTPs, and you'll see the stereotype did not come out of now where. 






Dare said:


> *Getting an impulse to be violent, acting on it, taking pleasure from hurting others and feeling no empathy/guilt/remorse is a pretty big clue you're dealing with a psychopath. *


I've seen this with the types in the title, I've dealt with this with the types in the title, with multiple people in both types, now I could just be completely crazy, experiencing apophenia, mistyped everyone (these types are not hard to notice), or OP is on to something.

And ESTP (when they are psychopathic) are more likely to be physically violent, while ENTP physically and psychologically violent ( getting under your skin and convincing you of dangerous things).

I think a psychopath also has a lack of understanding fair treatment, they are willing to throw stones if they live in a glass house, but will go off the handle if one is thrown their way, and some will even try to convince you why you should not throw stones at their house after the fact. The idea of fairness is not considered or completely lost. I hit you but DON'T YOU DARE HIT ME! kinda crazy.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Dare said:


> Getting an impulse to be violent, acting on it, taking pleasure from hurting others and feeling no empathy/guilt/remorse is a pretty big clue you're dealing with a psychopath.
> 
> I get that psychopaths are a subset of ASPD. It wasn't a case of what this girl was telling me, it was also my observations (her & I were friends at one stage), observations of others and the fact that her therapist told her he can no longer help her and recommended a psychiatrist who specializes in personality disorders (her response: "oh good, someone new to manipulate").
> 
> ...


Having impulse to be violent and acting on it is not a sign of psychopathy, it's a sign of low impulse control, anyone can be that way, sadistic person, ADHD person, Bipolar person, ASPD person, to jump to a conclusion and say damn that's a big clue it's a psychopath is just untrue.

You claim she has a therapist that says he can't help her, why was she in therapy? 

The traits you mentioned can be met by someone with Borderline personality disorder, ASPD, Narcissistic Personality Disorder. 

She most likely is a combo of BPD/NPD and some antisocial traits, she seems to be emotional in her actions , beating a girl up and then bothering to go to police to make up a victim story, waste of time.

Another thing, the fact you can spot all those traits with such ease is another sign that she is not exactly psychopathic. If she was one, she would be excellent in blending in and masking herself, you would not spot any signs of lack of empathy, cold hearted nature, egoism, overt violence etc. 

That bullshit psychopathic checklist, it is not used in my country but me and my therapist played a speculation game of how much i would score on it if was to be tested, he believed it would be 32 but what does that mean? Nothing, it's just traits, it doesn't look for the origin of the disorder (biological), it doesn't look for deficiency in emotions, fear, stress and anxiety.

When it comes to commorbidity, it's pretty limited in psychopathy, primary psychopathy is in born condition, you're basically immune to emotional trauma since the get go, PTSD resistant, an individual like that is unable to develop any full blown personality disorder that is based on trauma (NPD, BPD etc).


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> You can say that all you want, until you've seen it in person, consistently. To act like the stereotype is completely off is just ignoring it exists because, idk, that's what you choose to do. I've seen, dealt with and still see it too much to ignore it. Even other ENTPs have acknowledged this about ENTPs. I've heard the trolling nature comes from their desires to change what is normal, that also includes people's states and reactions and world views, and I heard this affect of change they make gives them pleasure, hence the trolly nature, and a sadistic ENTP getting pleasure out of causing someone pain because of the "change" the affected. I've known people like that and have been trying to understand people who I know who are like that and that explanation gave me clarity as to how someone can enjoy effing with people essentially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A true psychopath is 100% aware of fair treatment, there is lack of delusion that is part of the "disorder". It's like, you are aware of what is fair and what is not fair, you simply don't care for it.

It is nto to be forgotten, when i am implying ESTP or ENTP are most psychopathic, i am not saying they are close to being a psychopath or that they are one, in fact, they share the some tendencies that are seen in psychopathic people on a very surface level.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ksiaze said:


> A true psychopath is 100% aware of fair treatment, there is lack of delusion that is part of the "disorder". It's like, you are aware of what is fair and what is not fair, you simply don't care for it.
> 
> It is nto to be forgotten, when i am implying ESTP or ENTP are most psychopathic, i am not saying they are close to being a psychopath or that they are one, in fact, they share the some tendencies that are seen in psychopathic people on a very surface level.


Whether the people I knew were full blown psychos, probably not, but they did have the tendencies talked about in this thread. Some fairness seemed lost and some didn't care. Actually probably all didn't care and to me that lack of care seemed like maybe they hadn't even considered, because an ENTP friend of mine, when I told him about something unfair, he said to me "You think about that? Whether it's fair or not?" but he said it in a way like he knows it's not fair but doesn't care. I never asked any of the other people I know who are like this but I imagine they also did not care, because it wasn't this innocent lack of knowledge, but more of an "I'm looking out for myself only" attitude.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> Whether the people I knew were full blown psychos, probably not, but they did have the tendencies talked about in this thread. Some fairness seemed lost and some didn't care. Actually probably all didn't care and to me that lack of care seemed like maybe they hadn't even considered, because an ENTP friend of mine, when I told him about something unfair, he said to me "You think about that? Whether it's fair or not?" but he said it in a way like he knows it's not fair but doesn't care. I never asked any of the other people I know who are like this but I imagine they also did not care, because it wasn't this innocent lack of knowledge, but more of an "I'm looking out for myself only" attitude.


This attitude is pretty common with ENTPs it seems, they also tend to be unaware of how they impact their enviroment in a negative way, but yeah i get it, ENTPs are philosophers n shit.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

@*Ksiaze* 

The reason why stereotypes exist is because people are stereotypically unable to understand what Jung was talking about, let alone, to distinguish his theories from his observations.

Real introversion and extraversion are just what I said, it's the basic principle upon which Jung built his theory about how it influences the human mind. Your list of ENTP traits is very popular but not relevant to the dominant functions. Manipulation is the very act of introversion. The introvert manipulates the source of stimuli so that it keeps matching their expectations. Loose ethics also supposes a loose drive to understand how the world works, out of sensorsness and/or introversion. Boredom? N doms are less bored than others due to their creativity. Certainly the later develops to fight the former, but as a result, it takes a lot to be bored. People would die of boredom if they lived my life. All I need to be happy is a new problem to solve. Impulsivity? I let that to sensors and feelers. No care for norms, well, much less I assume than psycopaths. N doms don't believe in the accumulation of evidences (hence norms), so we wouldn't use stereotypes as an argument to prove a point. Statistics are meant to measure an object, not to prove its existence. Real intuitives are highly principled, and when extraverted, they actively seek the flaws in their own principles. There is, as a result, a deep hatred for the arbitrary, whether it comes from someone else, or oneself. So ENTPs won't set double standards for their own profit.

Intuition is all about distrusting the persistence of stimuli (hence the accumulation of evidences). Sensors are often believed to focus more on the dot than what connects the dot, but it's rather a matter of which dot is perceived as a more trustable superset based on its reccurence or lack thereof. The intuitive thinks out of the box by supposing instead that the most recurrent stimulus is the subset, its presence explained by less recurring stimuli. But this defiance about persistant stimuli translates as looking into things (how they work) beyond their simple presence (which one is). Jung didn't say that in case you ask, it is my observation of how highly creative people think out of the box and legitimaly score N. By resisting to the more evident connection, the intuitive perceiver surely develops one's ability to postpone decisions and anticipate, which in the case of extraverts can be paradoxically seen as an inabiliity to plan in depth because it goes too far and in too many directions to be set in stone.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ksiaze said:


> This attitude is pretty common with ENTPs it seems, they also tend to be unaware of how they impact their enviroment in a negative way, but yeah i get it, ENTPs are philosophers n shit.


What is extra weird is the people I knew were also generous with resources, it's strange.


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dare said:


> Getting an impulse to be violent, acting on it, taking pleasure from hurting others and feeling no empathy/guilt/remorse is a pretty big clue you're dealing with a psychopath.
> 
> I get that psychopaths are a subset of ASPD. It wasn't a case of what this girl was telling me, it was also my observations (her & I were friends at one stage), observations of others and the fact that her therapist told her he can no longer help her and recommended a psychiatrist who specializes in personality disorders (her response: "oh good, someone new to manipulate").
> 
> ...


Holy cow. What would you say is the probable cause? Abused as a child? Sociopathy taken to the extreme? Genetics? Also, I notice that you live in California. Does she as well? Because I definitely never want to run into someone like that. :shocked:


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord Pixel said:


> Spend some time with ENTPs, and you'll see the stereotype did not come out of now where.


I have... the point of the above was to show that many people mistype themselves because of the stereotypes, and even use the stereotypes an excuse to say that's who they are.

My experience with any NTP is that they care very much about the state of society and hate being untruthful. So they will speak of their ideas and truth, even if it butthurts others. But becoming personally sadistic to someone... I've only seen that from TJs.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

Lord Pixel said:


> I've seen this with the types in the title, I've dealt with this with the types in the title, with multiple people in both types, now I could just be completely crazy, experiencing apophenia, mistyped everyone (these types are not hard to notice), or OP is on to something.


I believe you! I just wanted to point out it isn't only those types, since I have personal knowledge of a female ENFP who is one (the only person I've ever met who I know with certainty is one).

Curiously, while on the topic, the one ENTP I've known very well describes himself as an "asshole" -- he loves to argue, holds himself separate to/above others, a scratch on him is the end of the world but others being badly injured is no biggie etc etc -- but he isn't actually a psychopath -- I think... 



> I think a psychopath also has a lack of understanding fair treatment, they are willing to throw stones if they live in a glass house, but will go off the handle if one is thrown their way, and some will even try to convince you why you should not throw stones at their house after the fact. The idea of fairness is not considered or completely lost. I hit you but DON'T YOU DARE HIT ME! kinda crazy.


Yep. This is what I've seen too. Egoism includes the belief no consequences will befall them (they're 'above it'). Everyone else is meant to take their rightful place as a zero in relation to them. 



Ksiaze said:


> You claim she has a therapist that says he can't help her, why was she in therapy?


Court ordered.



> She most likely is a combo of BPD/NPD and some antisocial traits, she seems to be emotional in her actions


She can do something terrible & feel nothing. Her overall affect is shallow. I agree there is comorbidity there.



> Another thing, the fact you can spot all those traits with such ease is another sign that she is not exactly psychopathic. If she was one, she would be excellent in blending in and masking herself, you would not spot any signs of lack of empathy, cold hearted nature, egoism, overt violence etc.


It took me months to detect something was wrong (and even then it was more there was something 'off' with her family which made me wonder and led me to look for signs in her). Once I caught her in a pointless lie I was done with her.

Once I distanced myself, the charm fell away and she took pleasure in showing me what she really is (I assume this was to show me she out-smarted me -- I get the sense she didn't like my IQ). I doubt she lets the mask slip very frequently.

Some of the things I found out about her were found indirectly (e.g., I heard she was hanging out with this new girl so I went to that girl's house to warn her, but instead I got to hear what had already been done to this latest victim). 

I would describe her as a master manipulator who is honing her skills as she gets older. I've seen the way she fools people into being empathetic towards her, 10/10 performance -- I suspect she knows her long-time survival rests on 'blending in'.



Scoobyscoob said:


> Holy cow. What would you say is the probable cause? Abused as a child? Sociopathy taken to the extreme? Genetics?


I can only guess. No abuse although her parents are freakishly cold/egotistical/bad boundary people themselves. So, heredity/genetic/born that way? Or early trauma from having two blocks of steel for parents? Both? Idk. 

She told me that her first memory was as a 4 year old asking her about-to-play-tennis mom if she could stay home (rather than being left with her au pair) and her mom said no -- she claims something 'snapped' in her mind at that time. Mind you, this is a pathological liar telling this story so who knows if any of it is true (especially when there is an appeal-to-empathy element contained in it). 

Her mother said she was a disobedient child, even as a very young child. When she was two and her weak/born-premature brother was brought home from the hospital she was told she cannot hold him yet. The first thing she did after they put him in bed was sneak into his room and lifted him to hold him. 

Years later her little brother was found face down in the swimming pool -- ENFP, an excellent swimmer from a very early age, was just standing there doing nothing/alerting no one/just watching the back of his head (luckily he was okay).

As a teen her brother saw a therapist who said the mother had "ruined him", fwiw (he's got problems too). The mom is controlling -- her children are either nothing or an extension of her. I'm positive her father has NPD (or close to it). They both say really crazy things (reality is whatever they say it is). They've been successfully sued for breaching a big contract (with a long drawn out court battle even though the conditions of the agreed-upon-contract was clear and they owed $$$$$$). 

It's possible she's both victim (in a sense, from her parents) & perpetrator but I have witnessed her running circles around her parents (she manipulates them into action). She once told her father the only thing missing from their picture-perfect home was a basket ball hoop over the garage (note the appeal to image rather than simply asking for it). The next day one appeared. She loves running to them with 'X hurt me' stories -- it plays perfectly into the conveniently warped view of reality her parents hold ('we're perfect but people are out to get us').

The family is wealthy -- they don't blink at paying $25K to get a great lawyer to undo whatever their children has done now (but they get angry at the possibility society might see behind the pristine family mask). The judge sees a well spoken Doctor & devoted wife/mom and so the kids get warnings/the benefit of the doubt rather than jail. They go to top private schools/the local country club etc where who you know opens more doors than what you do. Whatever she is, however she got that way, she has a lifestyle that supports her no-consequences behavior (she jokes about how there are never any consequences). 



> Also, I notice that you live in California. Does she as well? Because I definitely never want to run into someone like that. :shocked:


If only it were that simple. The stats I saw say there is roughly one psychopath in every hundred people. Seventy five percent of the time it will be a man but female psychopaths exist too. How many people are there in California? 

It's creepy the way they're (usually) hidden but then the thought of identifying a psycho every time you leave the house (if they were visible) is just as creepy. The fact that I can only confidently identify one psychopath (so far in life) is disconcerting in both ways...


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> I have... the point of the above was to show that many people mistype themselves because of the stereotypes, and even use the stereotypes an excuse to say that's who they are.
> 
> My experience with any NTP is that they care very much about the state of society and hate being untruthful. So they will speak of their ideas and truth, even if it butthurts others. But becoming personally sadistic to someone... I've only seen that from TJs.


Will speak their truth even if it butthurts other's, and sometimes _to_ butthurt others, because they are asshats when immature or just feeling trolly in that moment. And god forbid you tell them something in confidence, it will be thrown in your face soon enough in a very hurtful way that you didn't ask for, just to get under your skin, all for their own pleasure of having influence over you. #notallENTPsofcourse.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Dare said:


> I believe you! *I just wanted to point out it isn't only those types, since I have personal knowledge of a female ENFP who is one (the only person I've ever met who I know with certainty is one).*
> 
> Curiously, while on the topic, the one ENTP I've known very well describes himself as an "asshole" -- he loves to argue, holds himself separate to/above others, a scratch on him is the end of the world but others being badly injured is no biggie etc etc -- but he isn't actually a psychopath -- I think...


Yea I don't think being a psychopath is an exclusive club.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord Pixel said:


> Will speak their truth even if it butthurts other's, and sometimes _to_ butthurt others, because they are asshats when immature or just feeling trolly in that moment. And god forbid you tell them something in confidence, it will be thrown in your face soon enough in a very hurtful way that you didn't ask for, just to get under your skin, all for their own pleasure of having influence over you. #notallENTPsofcourse.


That sounds like it could be the general dynamic between F dom and T, you can't expect Ts to act like Fs and vice versa, it must be understood from both sides to be a good relationship. NTPs in general like to tease and give a different perspective to encourage growth but it's not my experience that they do it to be intentionally mean and hurtful, but if expectations don't match I can see why it can be hurtful. I personally tend to appreciate this behavior because it works positively on me, I expect them to bring me to my senses.

I thought my sister was ENTP because she gives me mean comments all the time and enjoys having that influence over me, but she's an ENTJ with low J-P and not N dom. Which explains everything, since enjoying having influence over the environment is a J trait and the high T-F difference makes it very hard for her to casually care for feelings. Also many ETPs are actually T doms because the tests use dichotomies and not function dominance to give results. Strong T is the actual assholeness factor.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Dare said:


> I believe you! I just wanted to point out it isn't only those types, since I have personal knowledge of a female ENFP who is one (the only person I've ever met who I know with certainty is one).
> 
> Curiously, while on the topic, the one ENTP I've known very well describes himself as an "asshole" -- he loves to argue, holds himself separate to/above others, a scratch on him is the end of the world but others being badly injured is no biggie etc etc -- but he isn't actually a psychopath -- I think...
> 
> ...


I don't see any reason to believe she was a psychopath, she can do bad things and not feel bad, that means lack of guilt and empathy.

But that really doesn't tell us much at all, we can take Ted Bundy for example who has murdered 36 women, not like he felt anything about it, he was charming and manipulative, all that stuff yet he was not a psychopath. Yeah he was cold hearted but he was too emotionaly for psychopathy.

There is no way to confitently identify a psychopath, unless you give them a brain scan, the closest thing we can hold into is if they truly showed no emotional feedback EVER, if a person showed some kind of emotional response at the age of 6-8 they would not be a psychopath, primaries are born that way so i suppose if you never saw a person stressed, in panic, overwhelmed by fear, sad, depressed, in love, anxious, insecure that could be a sign they might be psychopathic but that is the issue with normal people they are emotional beings so if they see someone who has no empathy or guilt they believe that person has no emotions.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> Yea I don't think being a psychopath is an exclusive club.


It's not that it's exclusive, it is that a primary psychopath would never be typed as an F, cold, collected, calm, unemotional and non caring, it would never add up with a feeling type.

The people who claim to be psychopaths and score F are secondary "psychopaths", they are not true psychopaths, they're sociopathic individuals/ASPD, impulsive, anger problems, erratic, don't plan well etc.

Think about it, if people type as ESTP, ENTP, ENTJ, INTJ, they are normal human beings who feel many things right? Yeah, they have lower empathy than feelers and tend to be more objective, you focus on the goal and don't involve emotions in it.

Now, how do you see an individual who truly lacks any deep emotions? They don't get rattled by anythiing, there is no anxiety, no empathy for anyone or anything, they don't even care about themselves in emotional sense, they are always focused on what is beneficial (money,sex,power), they don't care about ego boost or emotional gratification, there is no values and ethics.

How can an individual that i described be remotely close to a feeler? It doesn't add up.


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## AnneM (May 29, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> Yea I don't think being a psychopath is an exclusive club.


IT'S NOT? Then why did they tell me it was when I joined???


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## Scoobyscoob (Sep 4, 2016)

Dare said:


> I can only guess. No abuse although her parents are freakishly cold/egotistical/bad boundary people themselves. So, heredity/genetic/born that way? Or early trauma from having two blocks of steel for parents? Both? Idk.
> 
> She told me that her first memory was as a 4 year old asking her about-to-play-tennis mom if she could stay home (rather than being left with her au pair) and her mom said no -- she claims something 'snapped' in her mind at that time. Mind you, this is a pathological liar telling this story so who knows if any of it is true (especially when there is an appeal-to-empathy element contained in it).
> 
> ...


Well, I'm no psychologist but she sounds like a sociopath with NPD and some symptoms of ASPD. Likely due to her upbringing or lack of rather. Also, you haven't really described any psychopathic traits and as an aside, the vast majority of actual psychopaths have never hurt a person. It's actually a sociopath who has the most ability to harm your life in some way because they use people and social structures in a way that only benefits them at the expense of those around them.

So how did you meet said person? I'm curious how you met someone like her with that kind of family background and not immediately run away. Because I've met plenty of people who would be upper/upper-middle and are nothing like that. I mean, maybe some kids were a bit stuck up, but nothing sociopathic and especially nothing so dysfunctional to that degree.


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Red Panda said:


> That sounds like it could be the general dynamic between F dom and T, you can't expect Ts to act like Fs and vice versa, it must be understood from both sides to be a good relationship. NTPs in general like to tease and give a different perspective to encourage growth but it's not my experience that they do it to be intentionally mean and hurtful, but if expectations don't match I can see why it can be hurtful. I personally tend to appreciate this behavior because it works positively on me, I expect them to bring me to my senses.
> 
> I thought my sister was ENTP because she gives me mean comments all the time and enjoys having that influence over me, but she's an ENTJ with low J-P and not N dom. Which explains everything, since enjoying having influence over the environment is a J trait and the high T-F difference makes it very hard for her to casually care for feelings. Also many ETPs are actually T doms because the tests use dichotomies and not function dominance to give results. Strong T is the actual assholeness factor.


Expecting someone to not be an asshole is not expecting them to be an F type. Teasing is the first level, it slowly graduates to trolling once more information about the subject is gained. Sure someone saying the blunt truth is refreshing, until they start saying really effed up things about you and in front of other people without remorse true or not. 

The time I notice just natural Fdom and T problems is when someone says harsh truth that hurts but is helpful.

I could totally see ENTJ being like that, I think they do it more for power sake, control over your ego, keeping you underneath them, besting you essentially so yea I can see them as sadistic as well. When ENTPs do do it it's purely for pleasure, to amuse themselves, and that's what I mean by influence over you, they like to have access to your puppet strings so they can amuse themselves, I wanna know the things that affect you so I can use them to get a laugh to shake up the mundane, scary thing is that it's not always intentional it's more reflexive, ENTP sees potential for a great joke given the confidential info they know about you and they cannot help themselves but say it, and then they expect you guys to still remain the best of friends, which makes me wonder if this person is a psychopath or not for a split second, this back and forth from 2 extremes behavior. Oh you have autism, *austism joke at your expense* oh your afraid you could potentially have cancer *cancer joke* oh you're driving * jump scare joke, almost makes you hit a streetlight*, laughs with no remorse, and then "Why don't we hang out anymore? I thought we were best friends?". 0.o What?


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## L P (May 30, 2017)

Ksiaze said:


> It's not that it's exclusive, it is that a primary psychopath would never be typed as an F, cold, collected, calm, unemotional and non caring, it would never add up with a feeling type.
> 
> The people who claim to be psychopaths and score F are secondary "psychopaths", they are not true psychopaths, they're sociopathic individuals/ASPD, impulsive, anger problems, erratic, don't plan well etc.
> 
> ...


I mean this makes sense, I guess F and T psychopaths look different.


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## Ksiaze (Jul 21, 2019)

Lord Pixel said:


> I mean this makes sense, I guess F and T psychopaths look different.


The "psychopath" having F in their type is not a psychopath, it's sociopathy. Primary psychopathy is only T


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