# Eminem: ISTP or ISFP?



## Conterphobia

Zach very well could be an INFJ.


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## FearAndTrembling

QuickTwist said:


> Ooohhh. I like that.
> 
> Do akon: Scratch that.
> 
> Do Zach De La Rocha:


I am honestly not a good typer. I was just watching a quick interview with him. I have seen him listed as an ENFJ, which makes sense. After watching him for about ten seconds, I believe that even more.


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## Captain Mclain

Nvm. 

So... Ti-dom have emotions.  They just do not work with them as much as for example a feeler.

Correction; Ti-dom do not work them so much with their feeling function.


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## Psychopomp

@QuickTwist - I have had many an argument on Mr. De La Rocha - I think he is primarily concerned with the manipulation of forms. I think his STRENGTH, his FORTE, his GO-TO, is Se based. I think that focusing on his political and social commentary stuff is a bit of a false-dichotomy. There are plenty of Se types who do.. and we think it automatically makes them NFJs. It doesn't. I am not willing to throw down a type on him... but I think his Ni and Fe(?) are both well-expressed but of an inferior quality. Consider, too, that someones interest and familiarity with issues like him might be the result of other factors. There are plenty of Islamic ISTPs who will talk of nothing but global islamic issues, and will probably come across as NFJs as a result.. they will talk in very poetic and 'big' terms... but it is still inferior and brought to the fore mainly by virtue of their social background or some crisis they have experienced that they have had to cognitively deal with by really getting into all that stuff. 

Now, HE is a compelling question. Unlike Eminem. 



FearAndTrembling said:


> I said he was an ISTP too. He is an ISTP archetype craftsmen. He is using Ti. He splits hairs semantically. But he appeals to Fe. He knows the audience. For example, when he uses a word like "******", that is not Fi. That is not just expressing himself. It is calculated. It is saying, "Where I am from, ****** is not an insult on homosexuality. And if you don't understand that, you could never understand where I am coming from anyway. So fuck you." That isn't Fi. It is very fleshed out. He knows both sides, and that everyone is a hypocrite. But is willing to reconcile. lol. He just wants to test people first.
> 
> Do you think Method Man is an ISTP? I think he is similar. A lot of rapper wordsmiths are ISTP.
> 
> Eminem is like a comedian, which is Fe. Relating your own experiences to a wider audience. Like with his fans. He seems loyal too. Like a team player. Like that song, "You motherfuckers forgot about Dre." Because Dre is like his mentor, and he defends people he cares about. He knows the business, and who his friends are. He defends them. His tribe.


I agree with all of this. I am especially glad you mentioned his OBJECTIVE defense of using words like '******'. Great example of his Fe. The good or evil of it is wholly objective. He'll seem inconsistent and opportunistic, but it is just that if it lacks weight in objective terms, he will not give it any.



Captain Mclain said:


> Nvm.
> 
> So... Ti-dom have emotions.  They just do not work with them as much as for example a feeler.
> 
> Correction; Ti-dom do not work them so much with their feeling function.


I am an inferior Fe and am just a huge sack of sappy feels. I can't even imagine writing a poem or a song that isn't all about feeling. I mean, what would the point be? Who would even listen to it? I certainly wouldn't. Everything I have ever written, be it poem or story, is meant to express feeling or moral or something to that effect. That is the whole purpose, and feeling is more important in any pursuit anyway. That is ultimately irrelevant to my cognition, because while I value feeling ... I am nevertheless primarily a Thinker. Feeling things might be all I talk about, and it might permeate everything I produce in a certain medium or mediums, but I'd nevertheless still primarily be a Thinker. I have an INFP friend who has not cried since he was a child, and I cry all the time. He is unquestionably a dominant feeler... and I unquestionably an inferior one. I work as a teacher because I want to connect with people, he works as a researcher because he finds it challenging. The fact remains that he is dominantly a Feeling and I dominantly a Thinker. It manifests in a thousand ways - but just being emotional or having intense feelings means nothing in terms of whether one is a feeler.


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## Conterphobia

Thank you! You rock!!!

Just cuz I love the vibe of this song:


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## FearAndTrembling

arkigos said:


> @_QuickTwist_ - I have had many an argument on Mr. De La Rocha - I think he is primarily concerned with the manipulation of forms. I think his STRENGTH, his FORTE, his GO-TO, is Se based. I think that focusing on his political and social commentary stuff is a bit of a false-dichotomy. There are plenty of Se types who do.. and we think it automatically makes them NFJs. It doesn't. I am not willing to throw down a type on him... but I think his Ni and Fe(?) are both well-expressed but of an inferior quality. Consider, too, that someones interest and familiarity with issues like him might be the result of other factors. There are plenty of Islamic ISTPs who will talk of nothing but global islamic issues, and will probably come across as NFJs as a result.. they will talk in very poetic and 'big' terms... but it is still inferior and brought to the fore mainly by virtue of their social background or some crisis they have experienced that they have had to cognitively deal with by really getting into all that stuff.
> 
> Now, HE is a compelling question. Unlike Eminem.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with all of this. I am especially glad you mentioned his OBJECTIVE defense of using words like '******'. Great example of his Fe. The good or evil of it is wholly objective. He'll seem inconsistent and opportunistic, but it is just that if it lacks weight in objective terms, he will not give it any.
> 
> 
> 
> I am an inferior Fe and am just a huge sack of sappy feels. I can't even imagine writing a poem or a song that isn't all about feeling. I mean, what would the point be? Who would even listen to it? I certainly wouldn't. Everything I have ever written, be it poem or story, is meant to express feeling or moral or something to that effect. That is the whole purpose, and feeling is more important in any pursuit anyway. That is ultimately irrelevant to my cognition, because while I value feeling ... I am nevertheless primarily a Thinker. Feeling things might be all I talk about, and it might permeate everything I produce in a certain medium or mediums, but I'd nevertheless still primarily be a Thinker. I have an INFP friend who has not cried since he was a child, and I cry all the time. He is unquestionably a dominant feeler... and I unquestionably an inferior one. I work as a teacher because I want to connect with people, he works as a researcher because he finds it challenging. The fact remains that he is dominantly a Feeling and I dominantly a Thinker. It manifests in a thousand ways - but just being emotional or having intense feelings means nothing in terms of whether one is a feeler.


About Fe, and Eminem. I never liked this guy. Thought he was a clown. Tried too hard. Way back he was on TRL with Mark Wahlberg. They just both happened to be guests. And Wahlberg is acting all serious as usual. Serious actor. Eminem won't get to him. They're playing it cool. And at one point when they are going to break, Eminem grabs the mic, looks into the camera and says something like, "Let's all just be one happy BUNCH here." I fuckin lol'd immediately. 

I don't know if most people got it, but he was taking a crack at Wahlberg. Wahlberg got famous as Marky Mark, in Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. A ridiculous pop "rap" group put together, where Wahlberg ran around with his pants around his ankles, and showing his abs. A lot of people are too young to remember him as that, and Wahlberg doesn't want to be remembered like that. Because Marky Mark will always be ridiculous, no matter what he calls himself. 

And I know Eminem has been compared to guys like Marky Mark every time he tried to rap. He will not miss a chance to take a shot at him. He is not Marky Mark. He is not Vanilla Ice. Those idiots made it even harder for him.

That is one of the few songs of his I know. My friends were into him, I never was. Driving around, listening to, "Back when Mark Wahlberg was Marky Mark, this is how we used to make the party start.." lol. He dates things by the labels we give Mark Wahlberg. He is so not a Fi dom.


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## xraydav

i think he is a major Fi. While a lot of Ti users idealize him and think they're like him. He's just a bit twisted due to a socially competitive atmosphere growing up in da hood.


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## owlboy

arkigos said:


> Eminem is a word-hacker. He said it himself. He systemizes, subverts, manipulates based on visceral forms. In his case, the sound of the word as an object.
> 
> It is so painfully clear.
> 
> Wait, you think he is an NFP? Seriously?
> 
> An NFP would not give two shits about visceral word play...
> 
> Also, he isn't an intuitive at all.


... really? Where did NFPs get the reputation for being writers if they don't do word play? 

Fi is a judging function, it systemizes and organizes information as well, just based on different criteria to Ti.



> Again, an NFP would give zero shits about such posturing.
> 
> Even if I am wrong, it is still no proof at all of Ne.


I agree that he isn't an intuitive, but I think you're underestimating intuitives, here.

[I also agree that rap is dominated by STPs, but I'm not convinced SFPs are incapable of writing like that. I'm pretty certain Janelle Monae is an SFP for example].


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## Conterphobia

I like this song too:


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## Negativity Bias

Verity3 said:


> So much anger... I'm thinking Fi. Isn't it easier for Ti to not care?
> 
> It's not just anger for the sake of it either; it's protest. Recently I analyzed his lyrics for "Shady Cvxpher" when it came up in another forum... and I got the strong impression he was protesting the victimization of "acceptable targets" by going after "unacceptable targets." Others dismissed him as generating spectacle for the sake of it (and the profit), but I sensed more of a purpose behind it.
> 
> Not my style, but fascinating nonetheless.


Ti doms can be just as angry as Fi doms, its more about how they display said anger. I agree with your perspective on it though, since I don't really see myself or any INTP I know displaying their anger through that form of protest. I mean, Diogenes the Dog was a cynical philosopher ISTP that protested many things but he did it in a more satirical "fuck you" kind of way rather than this demonstrative and poetic form that Eminem uses. Although I don't doubt that Eminem could be an ISTP. 

Here is an interview of him:








owlboy said:


> ... really? Where did NFPs get the reputation for being writers if they don't do word play?
> 
> Fi is a judging function, it systemizes and organizes information as well, just based on different criteria to Ti.
> 
> I agree that he isn't an intuitive, but I think you're underestimating intuitives, here.
> 
> [I also agree that rap is dominated by STPs, but I'm not convinced SFPs are incapable of writing like that. I'm pretty certain Janelle Monae is an SFP for example].


Both INFP and ISTP are known for visceral word play, so I'm not entirely sure what the person you replied to was going on about. He might have been focusing on how specifically Eminem does the word manipulation. It comes off more calculated and violent than I would imagine an INFP or even an ISFP would use it.

I will say though, Eminem's lyrics and song structure come off as REALLY structured and logical. Perhaps even too logical at points.


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## Psychopomp

owlboy said:


> ... really? Where did NFPs get the reputation for being writers if they don't do word play?
> 
> Fi is a judging function, it systemizes and organizes information as well, just based on different criteria to Ti.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that he isn't an intuitive, but I think you're underestimating intuitives, here.
> 
> [I also agree that rap is dominated by STPs, but I'm not convinced SFPs are incapable of writing like that. I'm pretty certain Janelle Monae is an SFP for example].


Oh, INFPs are all about literary word play. Of course. Again, I could have poorly expressed myself, but I in that and previous posts, I am referring to manipulating words as objects, divested of meaning, for aesthetic effect. Like play doh. Se and Ti. 

An INFP would be quite the opposite, with the depth of nuanced meaning, in a literary sense, being what is 'played' with. 

I actually wouldn't naturally call that word play, but I suppose it should be. Mainly because what an INFP does it isn't about bending words, but about tapping into them.


... I also agree that SFPs are by no means incapable of succeeding in the industry.


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## Golden Rose

Eminem is an ISFP.
Always one of my favorites too. Em is the tits and I can relate to his music.


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## FearAndTrembling

arkigos said:


> Oh, INFPs are all about literary word play. Of course. Again, I could have poorly expressed myself, but I in that and previous posts, I am referring to manipulating words as objects, divested of meaning, for aesthetic effect. Like play doh. Se and Ti.
> 
> An INFP would be quite the opposite, with the depth of nuanced meaning, in a literary sense, being what is 'played' with.
> 
> I actually wouldn't naturally call that word play, but I suppose it should be. Mainly because what an INFP does it isn't about bending words, but about tapping into them.


You hit the nail on the head with Ti-Se in rap. That is what rap is largely about. A true dissection. I was telling somebody earlier this year, that Wu Tang Clan is better than The Beatles. They have better, and deeper lyrics than The Beatles. Method Man is deeper than John Lennon, and a better writer. That sounds absurd on its surface, but it is true. When you actually look at the words. Method Man's lyrics are more psychological, more personal, darker, and more precise. The word is the art.

I came to bring the pain hardcore from the brain
Let's go inside my astral plane
Find out my mental's based on instrumental
records hey, so I can write monumental

Is it real son, is it really real son
Let me know it's real son, if it's really real
Something I could feel son, load it up and kill one
Want it raw deal son, if it's really real

​^^That is better than anything the Beatles ever wrote.

​Lennon:

Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
Man you been a naughty boy. You let your face grow long
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye
Crabalocker fishwife pornographic priestess
Boy you been a naughty girl, you let your knickers down
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

Semolina pilchard climbing up the Eiffel Tower
Elementary penguin singing Hare Krishna
Man you should have seen them kicking Edgar Alan Poe
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob
Goo goo goo joob goo goo goo joob
Here come old flattop, he come grooving up slowly
He got joo-joo eyeball, he one holy roller
He got hair down to his knee
Got to be a joker he just do what he please

He wear no shoeshine, he got toe-jam football
He got monkey finger, he shoot coca-cola
He say "I know you, you know me"
One thing I can tell you is you got to be free
Come together right now over me

He bag production, he got walrus gumboot
He got Ono sideboard, he one spinal cracker
He got feet down below his knee
Hold you in his armchair you can feel his disease
Come together right now over me​

Whereas Paul Simon is probably using Se. And a great wordsmith.

The song Hook by Blues Traveler documents this:

It doesn't matter what I say
So long as I sing with inflection
That makes you feel I'll convey
Some inner truth or vast reflection
But I've said nothing so far
And I can keep it up for as long as it takes
And it don't matter who you are
If I'm doing my job then it's your resolve that breaks

Because the Hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The Hook brings you back
On that you can rely

There is something amiss
I am being insincere
In fact I don't mean any of this
Still my confession draws you near​


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## Deus Absconditus

@arkigos, @Captain Mclain

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Entropic

Dedication said:


>


man, this song just fucking speaks for itself. It's the Fi dom of Fi dom if I've ever come across one. With Se auxiliary because yes, it's very literal and concrete and getting a more singular point across the way Ni wants to do it. ISFP is just no contest. ESFP, they would be more focused on force, on action. I think the difference can be made clear comparing to Rage Against the Machine that I staunchly believe are a good example of ESFP musician or whatever, though they are a band and can't be as singularly represented:


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## Wolfskralle

>



Eminem seems like Beta quadra to me - this song particularly. I'd say ambiverted STP for him.
Most rap artists are STPs anyway, with few exceptions like Cypress Hill and Wu Tang Clan (Gamma), few lighter, more intellectual artists (Alpha).


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## Entropic

I've read up on the thread and @Shadow Logic Ne dom, srs and @arkigos Ti dom, srs? Ok, I'm going to give you an example of an inferior Fe musician just so you will see the notable difference + NFP musician too because it's obvious it's needed:






Ok, that video there, is exemplary of inferior FeNi in an ISTP (Robert Stjärnström in particular, since Machinae Supremacy is his band and he's the primary song writer/lyricist). Why? Notice the chorus: "So far apart, united by heart". This is an Fe(N)-laden sentiment, because it looks at values objectively and does so in the realm of intuition; it is oriented by feeling in the objective sense. Only Fe types do this and it is inferior quality because well, corn. Does this suggest high sophistication to you? Not to me, by any stretch of the imagination. An xNFJ wouldn't write this, but this is what they'd write:











Another important aspect regarding the Machinae Supremacy video is that the video is specifically shot including clips made by fans in order to exemplify this idea of "far apart, united by heart" logic. So if you are going to convince me that Eminem is an ISTP, you need to argue that this is how his feeling function looks like, and you won't, simply put. 

If you need more convincing why Robert Stjärnström of Machinae Supremacy is Fe inferior/ISTP, here's a Ted Talk he participated in:





If it's one thing that's true for the inferior function at least to outside observers, is that when we try to indulge in them, we tend to look utterly retarded due to their infantile or as Jung called it, archaic and primitive nature. I think the case can't be more clear than in this speech here.


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## Entropic

Moving on because I need to split my post in several parts because video posting limit fml, this is what I think xNFP music looks like (arkigos, you will bitch Marina is an Se dom but noooo, take that with @Amaterasu k, she has it all figured out):











In fact, notice how Poets of the Fall and Eminem are actually resoundly similar except one is clearly dealing with intuition and another sensation when it comes to the perceiving functions. 

Then I also second @Dedication's point and observations about the differences between Ne and Se types and how they come across. Funnily Ne types themselves seem oblivious to this and I wonder why. 

I really can't see Eminem as inferior Fe, and one of the reasons why is his tendency to, and clear ability to, deal with personal ethical issues. I mean, how are Eminem's lyrics any different from Linkin Park's, but no one is questioning whether Chester Bennington is an ISTP?!






Like sure, the actual subjects that the songs deal with differ, but the execution of them are extremely similar. They both a) deal with personal experience and Eminem as Dedication pointed out, seems to favor this songwriting over other forms of songwriting (I'm an Fi type but Te ego, I can't do that shit on a constant basis, I just end up writing weird as fuck abstract imagery all over the place), b) express this in a very literal and concrete way. When Chester sings "forget our memories/forget our possibilities/I hate what you are changing me into", he really means that. Eminem does the same thing. When he raps "I am whatever I say I am", he really means that. 

It's not some weird abstract logical construct they are making up. They are not trying to get at objective values which is true when it comes to Fe since Fe is concerned with the object. If anything, a song like "The Way I Am" is like the hallmark of Jungian introversion because it is denying objective criteria, standards and definitions, but it's not doing it the way Ti doms do it because the entire basis of the song is arguing ethical standards of right/wrong. It's not dealing with logical constructs of correct/incorrect as much as it is about the right to accept him as a person. That's Fi, because he himself subjectively defined that criteria, expressing it through Te "of the way" he is. That's a logical external objective result. Ti doesn't look at reality that way. Ti doms would ask, what am I? I mean, isn't that what most of Western philosophy has struggled with since forever, neatly presented with "cogito, ergo sum"? I'm reminded of that quote by Tilda Swinton CelebrityTypes have for her, which I think is fucking funny since they type her as an INFJ and it's the most Ti dom question in the world:



> I find fascinating the question, 'How do we identify ourselves, and how do we settle into other people's expectations for our identity?"


Granted, this is more Ti paired with intuition, but anyway, or you'll end up with Machinae Supremacy songs like these, that do touch on ethical issues (this song is about when the USA was about to pass the extreme anti-piracy laws that were later forfeited), but notice how it's ultimately impersonal:







* *





It's time to choose
Just don't fall for another ruse
You only lose
Watch as they abuse
You keep it up
And you're only asking for Moore
You need to stop
Believing they work for (you)
As time goes
The lies unfold
But once you know
You forget what you were told
They twist and redefine
The truth they tell is true to them only
They claim divine
And assemble at the frontlines
You're out of line
If you question or speak your mind
They want you blind
Stupid and behind
What to believe?
Nowhere in sight in industry
Can you receive
Without being deceived
This is your brain
And this is your brain on Fox news
You are insane
If you buy their sell-out truth
Don't be stoopid now!
Just like the (R)ecording (I)ndustry (A)ssholes of (A)merica
They promote mass ignorance cause that's what floats their aerials
Don't let them turn you into legion of stoopid
Don't let them turn you into drones
Right now, knowledge is the one weapon
That you can not throw away
Or else we all will pay




He's not singing about how he feels about it, whether it's right or wrong, or who he is or how he feels. If anything, the ethics is always externally focused on what *others *are doing, how *they *are affecting you etc. Like jeez. You guys are Ti types but can't get one obvious as fuck ISFP right. Eminem is as obvious ISFP as they come.

Case closed. I've had my say. I'm going to join @Dedication now because I am not sure I cba to argue this shit, lol. I am not even sure how this is a point of argument in the first place, tbh.


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## Entropic

wolf12345 said:


> Eminem seems like Beta quadra to me - this song particularly. I'd say ambiverted STP for him.
> Most rap artists are STPs anyway, with few exceptions like Cypress Hill and Wu Tang Clan (Gamma), few lighter, more intellectual artists (Alpha).


Ok, to be fair, Purple Hills is a collab he had with Cypress Hill so it's hardly representative of him alone as a musician, as it is of their entire collab project. I have to say it's pretty awkward to see Eminem in that video because he clearly doesn't look comfortable in it. It doesn't fit him. At all. I mean, compared to this?






The dude's an xSTP of sorts, probably ISTP, but he doesn't look at all uncomfortable. He's enjoying it a fuckton.

Fyi, Die Antwoord is another good example of NiFeTiSe whatever lyrics for those who again want to compare to Eminem.


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## Wolfskralle

Entropic said:


> Ok, to be fair, Purple Hills is a collab he had with Cypress Hill so it's hardly representative of him alone as a musician, as it is of their entire collab project. I have to say it's pretty awkward to see Eminem in that video because he clearly doesn't look comfortable in it. It doesn't fit him. At all. I mean, compared to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dude's an xSTP of sorts, probably ISTP, but he doesn't look at all uncomfortable. He's enjoying it a fuckton.
> 
> Fyi, Die Antwoord is another good example of NiFeTiSe whatever lyrics for those who again want to compare to Eminem.


I think it was a collaboration with D12 group actually. Cypress had very different vibes, much more darker, and hmm, introverted? At least on their first albums:





Maybe Eminem is uncomfortable on that video. Or maybe that weirdness is cause he is being ironic, and Antwoord is so serious about that shit. Anyway, his Fi doesn't seem convincing. And I am huge Fi junkie, when it comes to music. His only song that I recall now and is convincing is _Stan_. Which you'd probably call a Fe song.


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## Entropic

wolf12345 said:


> I think it was a collaboration with D12 group actually. Cypress had very different vibes, much more darker, and hmm, introverted? At least on their first albums:


Isn't D12 the name of their collab lol? Eminem + Cypress Hill? 



> Maybe Eminem is uncomfortable on that video. Or maybe that weirdness is cause he is being ironic, and Antwoord is so serious about that shit.


What? Look, you see him trying to emulate the beta atmosphere in the video but clearly failing at it. You see Cypress Hill doing it rather effortlessly in comparison. He's the one sticking out and doing so sorely. The video is actually a good example of quadra clash also, since it's a group so quadra values and ideals are more likely to actually be well-represented in it. 



> Anyway, his Fi doesn't seem convincing. And I am huge Fi junkie, when it comes to music. His only song that I recall now and is convincing is _Stan_. Which you'd probably call a Fe song.


Why would I argue Stan is an Fe song? It's so fucking Fi. lol. The entire concept of the song "Stan" is like, Fi in a nutshell, but even though it's supposed to be written from the perspective of a fan, the lyrical content is still entirely focused on how Stan is feeling. Self-referential, hence, Fi.

Here, the song fits this perfectly:



> *From this attitude, each living thing is completely unique, and has unique needs. *Every living thing needs to express itself and grow in its unique way. None of this can be put into categories or measurements, at least not without blotting out that utter uniqueness of each living thing. Because we are all living things, even though each of us is unique we can still connect to the life force as it exists in others. From an Fi standpoint, the way to respond to things is in a way that is faithful to that underlying life force.
> 
> *Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude of judging things good or bad based on how they harmonize or clash with a living being's inner essence. *That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul. It is known by attending to one's own emotions in response to things. What you like is good--for you, not necessarily good for others. What you don't like is bad--for you, not necessarily bad for others. Anything outside your own soul is irrelevant to evaluating anything or choosing your course in life.
> 
> *As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed. *ISFPs typically seek out a space in which they can be completely and spontaneously themselves, following their artistic impulses without regard to social expectation or definition of any sort. Some do their best to live life as a soap opera: creating and living out intense drama wherever they go. INFPs typically seek to understand the world in terms of drama, emotion, and people seeking their own unique callings (perhaps Garrison Keillor is a good example of that). Some, like John Gray, attempt to help others understand each other through empathy with each other's differences, and thereby find peace and synergy.
> 
> Developed Fi naturally leads people to favor mercy or forgiveness for people who have done heinous acts--anything from theft to murder to genocide--acts that, under the ordinary laws that make a society manageable (see Extraverted Thinking), would usually merit their imprisonment or execution.* From a developed Fi perspective, the criminal is still a living soul, still unique and precious despite whatever he may have done. If we walked in his moccasins for a while, maybe we could see it his way. Without condoning his crimes, maybe we could see how we ourselves could have done the same things under similar circumstances.* This use of empathy as one's ultimate anchor of orientation leads to a resolute non-judgementalness. First empathize--find something in your own heart that lets you see how someone could feel and act the way he did--and then you will probably find that you no longer feel hatred or a desire for retribution.


That's Lenore Thomson, fwiw, from this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/106583-introverted-feeling-described-lenore-thomson.html


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## FearAndTrembling

I am confused now. Him having feeling last does not make sense in many ways. I would lol if he was an INFJ. He may be. "What am I?" is answered differently by straight Ti. Dominant Ti. It is more mechanical. Behind Ni and Fe though, it can have the power of Fi. I think Ni-Fe can judge the world harshly, and appear to be judging doms, pushing Fi. They perceive, and then judge by Fe. That is why they can be such strict moralists. They can take Fe very seriously. They know who is faking it. They will straighten up, when other Fe straightens up.


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## FearAndTrembling

Entropic said:


> Isn't D12 the name of their collab lol? Eminem + Cypress Hill?
> 
> 
> 
> What? Look, you see him trying to emulate the beta atmosphere in the video but clearly failing at it. You see Cypress Hill doing it rather effortlessly in comparison. He's the one sticking out and doing so sorely. The video is actually a good example of quadra clash also, since it's a group so quadra values and ideals are more likely to actually be well-represented in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would I argue Stan is an Fe song? It's so fucking Fi. lol. The entire concept of the song "Stan" is like, Fi in a nutshell, but even though it's supposed to be written from the perspective of a fan, the lyrical content is still entirely focused on how Stan is feeling. Self-referential, hence, Fi.
> 
> Here, the song fits this perfectly:
> 
> 
> 
> That's Lenore Thomson, fwiw, from this thread: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/106583-introverted-feeling-described-lenore-thomson.html


Stan is Fe. The part that is Eminem is Fe. It is a grandmother speaking. The advice is textbook as Arkigos mentioned. It is a public service announcement. Fe knows Fi. Eminem is documenting Fi from a Fe perspective. He knows everything he does has consequences. So his silence is not ignorance. He is saying, "Yeah, I know you guys go through shit, so did I. I get it. Don't say I don't, and don't blame me. You know what is right."


----------



## Wolfskralle

Entropic said:


> Isn't D12 the name of their collab lol? Eminem + Cypress Hill?


Nope. It has nothing to do with Cypress Hill. If you'll listen to any song from that album I posted you will see that it coudn't possibly be the same group there and on that Purple video. Cypress isn't Beta. 



> What? Look, you see him trying to emulate the beta atmosphere in the video but clearly failing at it.


He is trying, or you just "see" it, because you already made your mind that he does not fit with that "carnival" atmosphere. Dunno, I could see many interpretations of how he does or does not fit there.




> Why would I argue Stan is an Fe song? It's so fucking Fi. lol. The entire concept of the song "Stan" is like, Fi in a nutshell, but even though it's supposed to be written from the perspective of a fan, the lyrical content is still entirely focused on how Stan is feeling. Self-referential, hence, Fi.
> 
> Here, the song fits this perfectly:


Cause you seem to oversimplify Fi as a function that merely made self-references and concentrate on self. And that song meaning is not that clearly focused at ones feeling, not as much as it is a look at psycho fan psyche from outside perspective, without judging it (maybe with a bit of sarcasm, but hey it's a rap song). 
Anyway Thomson's quote fits here. Last bit of bolded text "From a developed Fi perspective..." is most crucial to understand Fi without overly simplifying it, imo.


----------



## owlboy

arkigos said:


> Oh, INFPs are all about literary word play. Of course. Again, I could have poorly expressed myself, but I in that and previous posts, I am referring to manipulating words as objects, divested of meaning, for aesthetic effect. Like play doh. Se and Ti.
> 
> An INFP would be quite the opposite, with the depth of nuanced meaning, in a literary sense, being what is 'played' with.
> 
> I actually wouldn't naturally call that word play, but I suppose it should be. Mainly because what an INFP does it isn't about bending words, but about tapping into them.
> 
> 
> ... I also agree that SFPs are by no means incapable of succeeding in the industry.


Hmm okay, I think I get you. ''Bending words'' and ''tapping into them'' does seem like an appropriate distinction.


----------



## Entropic

@wolf12345 or perhaps the definition fits because, he is, you know, Fi dom? You accuse me of not showing a nuanced understanding of Fi but you haven't offered how I'm wrong. I don't cherrypick data to fit the argument, because how in the end would it ultimately apply if he is *not*? I didn't just give one sentence taken out of context but I copied three paragraphs. I could do the same with Jung or Augusta. I've given a clear counter-example of ISTP lyrics and I've given an example of how inferior Fe would look like and be detected in a musician and I've argued that if someone wishes to convince me that this is the definition that fits him, they need to argue and find evidence that support that. 

I don't think my understanding of Fi is at all lacking nuance, and I do think self-referencing is a very important aspect of what Fi is about since it is a recurring trend that you will see Fi types endorse in how they reason about things and express themselves, especially when we are talking about _lyrical content_. The reason why is actually something Lenore explains:



> That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, *is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul*.


She is actually explicitly stating that Fi is self-referential here. So both Fe and Fi can share personal experiences and sentiments, but how it's done is very different. Fi will always see it from the experience of how they subjectively understand because it is introverted and must involve focus on the relationship between subject and object rather than the object itself; Fe will not. Fe focuses on and denies the idea of subject and sees the self as another object.

"Stan" is a great example of this, and most importantly, how nuanced Eminem's expression of Fi is which is what ultimately imo, puts it in dominant category. He can see the need from several perspectives that he offers in the video:

1. He expresses the point of view of Stan and Stan's rights and needs. Stan feels ignored, thinks he is entitled to attention from Eminem, that Eminem is acting "high and mighty" and not caring about his fans. A majority of the portion about Stan's perspective is Stan arguing for the importance for Eminem to care about his fans and their need for attention. This also fits the Fi definition in socionics very well; understanding and manipulating relationship space. 

2. He expresses the point of view of Stan's little brother, through Stan. Stan argues that even if Eminem may ignore most of his fans, at least consider the importance of Stan's little brother, a child, with different needs from the adult fans. His rights, life experience and perspectives are more important because he is a more vulnerable person than adults. This is a very maturely expressed Fi sentiment, especially seeing how it's done through this extremely meta-narrative perspective of the perspective of Stan already being a meta-narrative because Stan is written from the perspective of a potential fan, and I would say this easily puts Fi in a socionics sense, at 3D which, would he be an ISTP or an LSI, already rules out Fi as a potential role function for him. I don't think I could do this in a meaningful way, due to my Fi being 2D, even with the more mature perspective I've gained from talking about Fi with the gf.

3. He ultimately returns to his actual self, to argue his perspective and his right as the actual musician, Eminem. Perhaps Stan is a little inconsiderate of him. He's an artist too, he's busy, got a life, tours all over the world, is pestered by millions of fans worldwide asking for the same attention Stan does. It's not that he doesn't care but that he can't attend every fan meaningfully. It's not humanly possible.

4. A less emphasized perspective, but Eminem also mentions the perspective of Stan's girlfriend and her needs and rights as a person. He outright suggests to Stan that "she needs him" and that he should pay his attention to her, not so much on him. 

Seriously, I don't think you can get a more obvious example of 4D Fi than this. It's already a complex song seeing the perspective it's written through, but I think Eminem shows how sophisticated his understanding and use of ethics is in how many perspectives he's so capable of handling in this one song and how he doesn't deny any of them but rightfully argues for all to be considered. The more I think about it, the more it impresses me actually, because I know for a fact I can't do this. 

I mean, tbh, the entire thread is actually fucking hilarious at some level because here we are, THINKERS, arguing about whether he's a feeler or a thinker. LOL. Do you guys even think Eminem gives a shit? It's like what the gf told me yesterday when she said that "it all comes back to feelings." In the world of feeling, none of this matters. Like, idk about you guys, but I'm beginning to understand how limited my understanding is from the POV of thinking, and I think Eminem actually shows that. Just no way in hell that guy's 2D Fi or whatever with 1D Fe. LOL. Most ridiculous assertion I've heard. Stan is the fucking counter-example if you could ever find one but since most of us here are feeling retarded because that certainly applies to us (poor sophistication of ethics) I am not even sure most of us are even capable of understanding why because when you are shit at something, you don't tend to realize how shit you are and you can't detect something of better quality above your own level of shitness.


----------



## Captain Mclain

@Entropic You sometimes say stuffs like "Fi in 2D" and 4D. What does that mean? Never read it anywhere else.

Ok nvm. Its socionics functionslot.

*Ego Block*
1.Leading Function
2.Creative Function
*Super-Ego Block
*3.Role Function
4.Vulnerable Function
*Id Block
*5.Suggestive Function
6.Mobilizing Function
*Super-Id Block
*7.Ignoring Function
8.Demonstrative Function

Eminem have Se in 2D. 

Blue = Valuing functions
Red = Unvalued

... And thats how socionics and MBTI are kinda the same. MBTI only focus on the valued functions and Socionics kinda have an theory for all of them. Edit; And Jung is the theory of the first two.


----------



## Entropic

Captain Mclain said:


> @Entropic You sometimes say stuffs like "Fi in 2D" and 4D. What does that mean? Never read it anywhere else.
> 
> Ok nvm. Its socionics functionslot.
> 
> *Ego Block*
> 1.Leading Function
> 2.Creative Function
> *Super-Ego Block
> *3.Role Function
> 4.Vulnerable Function
> *Id Block
> *5.Suggestive Function
> 6.Mobilizing Function
> *Super-Id Block
> *7.Ignoring Function
> 8.Demonstrative Function
> 
> Eminem have Se in 2D.


Yes, it's socionics but no, if he's an xSI, then Se is 3D.


----------



## Captain Mclain

Entropic said:


> Yes, it's socionics but no, if he's an xSI, then Se is 3D.


Se in the creative function. Creative function is 2D.
Socionics Types: LSI-ISTj


----------



## To_august

@Captain Mclain

* *




Strong/Weak – Depending on our type, certain kinds of information metabolism will be strong or weak, meaning we find it easy or difficult to act on that kind of information effectively. Strength/Weakness can be divided into four levels, known as Dimensionality which varies from One-Dimensionality to Four-Dimensionality:



One-Dimensionality (1D) – Very Weak. We can only use these kinds of information at the most basic and rudimentary level.
Two-Dimensionality (2D) – Weak. We have to work at these kinds of information to achieve adequacy in it. Usually its use will be tiring to maintain.
Three-Dimensionality (3D) – Strong. We can easily and readily metabolise these kinds of information, acting on them as and when we wish.
Four-Dimensionality (4D) – Very Strong. These kinds of information are so prevalent in us that they strongly dictate how we move and communicate in the world. People can easily be recognised by the IM Elements assigned to these strongest functions.
Leading _(4D)
_Creative _(3D)_
Role _(2D)_
Vulnerable _(1D)_
Suggestive _(1D)_
Mobilising _(2D)_
Ignoring _(3D)_
Demonstrative _(4D)_


----------



## Kabosu

Creative and ignoring are 3D.

E: I was beaten to it.


----------



## Conterphobia

I'm very new to Socionics. I took a really good test and got EII-3Ne (INFj). It sounds like people are currently saying Eminem is something vastly different than this. Can someone describe the differences between MBTI and Jungian and Socionics?

[Edit] Better yet, can we talk about how beign a feeler or even a Ti dom translates into aggression which would be present in so many Em songs its not even funny.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I do think he is probably a feeler now. The theory of forms by Arkigos kind of enchanted me with its aesthetic appeal. It seemed so right. I still think it applies to many other rappers. But I believe Eminem is lead around by feeling. It isn't about logic or system, but about people. People are his focus. That is obvious to me. 

And I don't really know much about quadras. People were arguing whether he fit in in with rap culture or whatever. He did actually. Maybe he isn't one of them, but he got in there. That is tough to do. I wouldn't do the shit he did. I would think it takes a lot of calculation and risk. So I thought maybe he was using Fe or Ti to do that. But ISFP probably makes the most sense to me now.


----------



## Captain Mclain

I think a feeler-dom would be more dynamic in his internal feelings then just rage about how everyone leaves him. For me his strength is that he is accurate and really pushes his message so people listening to him can almost feel they are in his songs.






This is like only sensation stuffs in this text. And no feeling.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I don't think Fi feels the need to explain itself. Its authenticity and existence is justification enough. It is real on that alone. To explain itself, detracts from it. It was honestly ridiculous for me to think he was using Fe in any capacity. I don't know ISTP very well, but INTP, though they can be pushy, they are somewhat reeled in by Fe. They are uncertain beyond a point. They use a lot of qualifiers and caveats in their language. Fe kind of creates around its audience. Fi creates through it.


----------



## Captain Mclain

FearAndTrembling said:


> I don't think Fi feels the need to explain itself. Its authenticity and existence is justification enough. It is real on that alone. To explain itself, detracts from it. It was honestly ridiculous for me to think he was using Fe in any capacity. I don't know ISTP very well, but INTP, though they can be pushy, they are somewhat reeled in by Fe. They are uncertain beyond a point. They use a lot of qualifiers and caveats in their language. Fe kind of creates around its audience. Fi creates through it.


But its the same with Ti ffs..  
here is ISFP




They do not have the same upgrowing so, there is a difference there.* He is waaay more dynamic with his feelings.*


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Captain Mclain said:


> But its the same with Ti ffs..
> here is isfp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They do not have the same upgrowing so, there is a difference there. He is waaay more dynamic with his feelings.


I agree that Ti and Fi can be hard to tell apart, because they are both subjective and don't really explain themselves. What makes me lean towards Fi is the certainty of it. Both Ti and Fi can be pretty inflexible, but Fi pushes it harder.

The main thing is the focus on people. It is Fi-Te. It is deconstructive. It is not about hope or unity. It isn't about creating anything. It is about deconstructing the flaws of society, and leaving nothing in its place. He is breaking down personality and psychology of individual and cultures. Just exposing it. It reminds me of what Jung said about Freud, he would always tell people, "This is who you are.. You are nothing but this.." And he was brilliant at doing that. Whereas Jung thought where a person comes from, is only half the story at best. It is an open book, and often wrongly interpreted.


----------



## Captain Mclain

FearAndTrembling said:


> I agree that Ti and Fi can be hard to tell apart, because they are both subjective and don't really explain themselves. What makes me lean towards Fi is the *certainty* of it. Both Ti and Fi can be pretty inflexible, but Fi pushes it harder.


What do you mean?


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Captain Mclain said:


> What do you mean?


Let me just give my take on ISFP. They are Ni-Fe's worst nightmare. They are moral rocks in a concrete world. Imagine the steadfastness of the INFP, coupled with being greatly in tune with environment. They are very keen when somebody is trying to pressure them in any way. A NFP can perhaps be conned with idealism/romanticism. But Se would take a very long and drawn out con. 

I know little about Socionics. But from what I just read, he also makes total sense as Fi-Se there. Fi is basically the ego. And Se is the creative function. The application of the ego. Eminem is delivering his Fi through Se. 

ESIs often have a tendency to be confrontational and may come across as unwavering and strict in their judgments and discipline. They are usually particularly oppositional towards those whom they mistrust or towards characters whose moral fortitude they are inclined to question. They may go out of their way to press judgment, fight for what they believe is ethically sound, or for those emotionally close to them. -


----------



## Captain Mclain

FearAndTrembling said:


> Let me just give my take on ISFP. They are Ni-Fe's worst nightmare. They are moral rocks in a concrete world. Imagine the steadfastness of the INFP, coupled with being greatly in tune with environment. They are very keen when somebody is trying to pressure them in any way. A NFP can perhaps be conned with idealism/romanticism. But Se would take a very long and drawn out con.
> 
> I know little about Socionics. But from what I just read, he also makes total sense as Fi-Se there. Fi is basically the ego. And Se is the creative function. The application of the ego. Eminem is delivering his Fi through Se.
> 
> ESIs often have a tendency to be confrontational and may come across as unwavering and strict in their judgments and discipline. They are usually particularly oppositional towards those whom they mistrust or towards characters whose moral fortitude they are inclined to question. They may go out of their way to press judgment, fight for what they believe is ethically sound, or for those emotionally close to them. -


ISFP are actually benefactors to INFJ.  They are like awesome and can help us loads. I do not see eminem fight for moral courses really, not in his songs anyway. He just accept raw his situation and everyones situation and calling everyone names.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Captain Mclain said:


> ISFP are actually benefactors to INFJ.  They are like awesome and can help us loads. I do not see eminem fight for moral courses really, not in his songs anyway. He just accept raw his situation and everyones situation and calling everyone names.


I think there is a method to it though. He is trying to hit certain notes.

I think it may be a quadra thing too. I don't know much about it. ISTP and ISFP are both very independent, but I think that ISTP are more tribal, and have an inclination for group harmony and belonging to certain group of people. Either by real life or idea. ISTP, ESTP, INFJ and ENFJ are actually quite jolly, and not very serious. We would rather everybody be having a good time. We work quite well with others. We get riled up, but it is temporary, and then we want everybody to be happy again. We are team players, or think we are anyway. And pride ourselves on that. So Stan could be a rejection of any team. Everybody is their own player. Fe is like a coaching function. Eminem is not a coach.


----------



## Captain Mclain

FearAndTrembling said:


> *I think there is a method to it though. He is trying to hit certain notes.*
> 
> I think it may be a quadra thing too. I don't know much about it. ISTP and ISFP are both very independent, but I think that ISTP are more tribal, and have an inclination for group harmony and belonging to certain group of people. Either by real life or idea. ISTP, ESTP, INFJ and ENFJ are actually quite jolly, and not very serious. We would rather everybody be having a good time. We work quite well with others. We get riled up, but it is temporary, and then we want everybody to be happy again. We are team players, or think we are anyway. And pride ourselves on that. So Stan could be a rejection of any team. Everybody is their own player. Fe is like a coaching function. Eminem is not a coach.


That is, I believe, Fe.  And I see why not Eminem is not able to be a great coach. I mean, based on what? Stan is a story of a crazy fan. Someone else and not based on himself. If it is that song you are referring to.


----------



## Conterphobia

Captain Mclain said:


> That is, I believe, Fe.  And I see why not Eminem is not able to be a great coach. I mean, based on what? Stan is a story of a crazy fan. Of someone else and not based on himself. If its that song you are referring to.


I disagree. Stan is how he sees the world. He's putting himself in this awkward situation and the chaos that surrounds him and how he tries to fix it, but its too late.

[Edit] I have often viewed that piece as a satire; that he really does not give a single fuck about how fucked up the world is. "Come to think of it, it was you." Now why would he include this unless it had some purpose? My guess is that it is meant to bring this satirical piece to an end.


----------



## Captain Mclain

QuickTwist said:


> I disagree. Stan is how he sees the world. He's putting himself in this awkward situation and the chaos that surrounds him and how he tries to fix it, but its too late.
> 
> [Edit] I have often viewed that piece as a satire; that he really does not give a single fuck about how fucked up the world is. "Come to think of it, it was you." Now why would he include this unless it had some purpose? My guess is that it is meant to bring this satirical piece to an end.


Thats is a great point actually, forgot about that punchline. I do not see why a Fi would do such a statement, or Si for that matter. Yea, I think that is to go too far with function and what they does.  Still would have liked a poll! ;D haha _(sry)_


----------



## Wolfskralle

Entropic said:


> @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=69190" target="_blank">wolf12345</a></i></span> or perhaps the definition fits because, he is, you know, Fi dom? You accuse me of not showing a nuanced understanding of Fi but you haven't offered how I'm wrong. I don't cherrypick data to fit the argument, because how in the end would it ultimately apply if he is *not*? I didn't just give one sentence taken out of context but I copied three paragraphs. I could do the same with Jung or Augusta. I've given a clear counter-example of ISTP lyrics and I've given an example of how inferior Fe would look like and be detected in a musician and I've argued that if someone wishes to convince me that this is the definition that fits him, they need to argue and find evidence that support that.
> 
> I don't think my understanding of Fi is at all lacking nuance, and I do think self-referencing is a very important aspect of what Fi is about since it is a recurring trend that you will see Fi types endorse in how they reason about things and express themselves, especially when we are talking about _lyrical content_. The reason why is actually something Lenore explains:
> 
> 
> 
> She is actually explicitly stating that Fi is self-referential here. So both Fe and Fi can share personal experiences and sentiments, but how it's done is very different. Fi will always see it from the experience of how they subjectively understand because it is introverted and must involve focus on the relationship between subject and object rather than the object itself; Fe will not. Fe focuses on and denies the idea of subject and sees the self as another object.
> 
> "Stan" is a great example of this, and most importantly, how nuanced Eminem's expression of Fi is which is what ultimately imo, puts it in dominant category. He can see the need from several perspectives that he offers in the video:
> 
> 1. He expresses the point of view of Stan and Stan's rights and needs. Stan feels ignored, thinks he is entitled to attention from Eminem, that Eminem is acting "high and mighty" and not caring about his fans. A majority of the portion about Stan's perspective is Stan arguing for the importance for Eminem to care about his fans and their need for attention. This also fits the Fi definition in socionics very well; understanding and manipulating relationship space.
> 
> 2. He expresses the point of view of Stan's little brother, through Stan. Stan argues that even if Eminem may ignore most of his fans, at least consider the importance of Stan's little brother, a child, with different needs from the adult fans. His rights, life experience and perspectives are more important because he is a more vulnerable person than adults. This is a very maturely expressed Fi sentiment, especially seeing how it's done through this extremely meta-narrative perspective of the perspective of Stan already being a meta-narrative because Stan is written from the perspective of a potential fan, and I would say this easily puts Fi in a socionics sense, at 3D which, would he be an ISTP or an LSI, already rules out Fi as a potential role function for him. I don't think I could do this in a meaningful way, due to my Fi being 2D, even with the more mature perspective I've gained from talking about Fi with the gf.
> 
> 3. He ultimately returns to his actual self, to argue his perspective and his right as the actual musician, Eminem. Perhaps Stan is a little inconsiderate of him. He's an artist too, he's busy, got a life, tours all over the world, is pestered by millions of fans worldwide asking for the same attention Stan does. It's not that he doesn't care but that he can't attend every fan meaningfully. It's not humanly possible.
> 
> 4. A less emphasized perspective, but Eminem also mentions the perspective of Stan's girlfriend and her needs and rights as a person. He outright suggests to Stan that "she needs him" and that he should pay his attention to her, not so much on him.
> 
> Seriously, I don't think you can get a more obvious example of 4D Fi than this. It's already a complex song seeing the perspective it's written through, but I think Eminem shows how sophisticated his understanding and use of ethics is in how many perspectives he's so capable of handling in this one song and how he doesn't deny any of them but rightfully argues for all to be considered. The more I think about it, the more it impresses me actually, because I know for a fact I can't do this.
> 
> I mean, tbh, the entire thread is actually fucking hilarious at some level because here we are, THINKERS, arguing about whether he's a feeler or a thinker. LOL. Do you guys even think Eminem gives a shit? It's like what the gf told me yesterday when she said that "it all comes back to feelings." In the world of feeling, none of this matters. Like, idk about you guys, but I'm beginning to understand how limited my understanding is from the POV of thinking, and I think Eminem actually shows that. Just no way in hell that guy's 2D Fi or whatever with 1D Fe. LOL. Most ridiculous assertion I've heard. Stan is the fucking counter-example if you could ever find one but since most of us here are feeling retarded because that certainly applies to us (poor sophistication of ethics) I am not even sure most of us are even capable of understanding why because when you are shit at something, you don't tend to realize how shit you are and you can't detect something of better quality above your own level of shitness.


OKay, you analysis is fairly convincing, but I never doubted that song is a Fi song actually. You might have convinced others though. What gives me more doubts about him being a fi dom is stuff like that _Purple Hills_ song, or like this:




I mean, WTF.

Good you started to quote big works like Thomson or Augusta xD. But I don't feel like quoting / going into Te war now. 
One thing I want to disagree:


> I do think self-referencing is a very important aspect of what Fi is about since it is a recurring trend that you will see Fi types endorse in how they reason about things and express themselves, especially when we are talking about lyrical content. The reason why is actually something Lenore explains:
> She is actually explicitly stating that Fi is self-referential here.


IMO you can't really determine whether lyrical content is written with use of Fi function based on how "self-referential" it is. It might be correct on theoretical level (that "Fi is reffering to self") but it woudn't be visible in the lyrics. 
I actually might argue that the opposite is true - Fi, as a introverted function, will write less obvious, methaphorical lyrics, which actually DON'T refer to self. You might get impression that it is refering to "object" but in fact it's not - it's just less obvious; content might even be judgemental but you wouldn't be able to determine it with certainty... Which is the case of _Stan_ (see how everyone in this thread have completely different interpretation of that song). The same case with Muses _Animals_. You have personal feeling there involved, just not stated obviously. Same with, for example, Regina Spektor. You might argue that she is a Fe type, because she often sings about "stuff", or with metaphors without referencing it to any first-person experience, or even sings in a third person (_Laughting with_); but in fact she is most obvious Fi type ever.
Fe could be much less concerned with exposing self, hence it might appear much more self-referential when, let's say, it want to evoke certain feelings in listener, or when it expose certain feeling it get from without (from "object"; "objects" in this context are norms, feelings, morals).



> Fi will always see it from the experience of how they subjectively understand because it is introverted and must involve focus on the relationship between subject and object rather than the object itself; Fe will not. Fe focuses on and denies the idea of subject and sees the self as another object.


Again - theoretically, yes. Fi is introverted so obviously it focus on subject and uses it as a reference point. Practically - often not visible. 
Fe itself "denies idea o subjectivity", right. But a Fe user appear not any less focused on self than a Fi type. That's the whole idea. Unhealthy Fe type girl who is marring a guy for his social status, so she could fulfill a certain social contract (Jungs example) wouldn't feel any different emotions about it than a Fi dom who felt in love for quite different reasons. Lyrical content of songs generally deal with emotions, not jungian Fe or Fi as a method of judging informations. So the means of expressions of a Fi and Fe types will be quite similar, at least in a sense of "self-referencing". I think that if women from Jungs example had to write a poem, she wouldn't be not any less self-referential than any of your post child Fi doms. Example: Evanescence (ENFJ) song _Imaginary_.



> Fi will always see it from the experience of how they subjectively understand because it is introverted and must involve focus on the relationship between subject and object rather than the object itself; Fe will not. Fe focuses on and denies the idea of subject and sees the self as another object.


But I think that object, as a philosophical term in jungian psychology, mean "idea taken from without". Hence Fe takes ideas (feelings, evaluations, etc.) from ouside and utilizes them. It doesn't necessarily "sees self as an object", not so much as it "evaluates based on objects", hence it makes feeling judgements based on what was "injected" to an Fe user from his environment. Nevertheless, a Fe user wouldn't feel any less personal about his feelings than a Fi type, and as a result he wouldn't make any less amount of self-references in lurics, as "objects" has already been utilized and are used as a "private emotions". Objects will be "translated" into personal emotions.

If I misunderstood your use of phrase "self-reference" or whatever feel free to correct.


As for Eminem I feel torn now. Stan is quite a Fi song, as few other might be, but his vibe in lots of songs is pretty much what could be expected from a ST beta type, not an ISFP.


----------



## ferroequinologist

IMO, lots of confusion in this guy, or surrounding this guy. I never liked him and have never listened to any of his stuff (other than Weird Al's Couch Potato) ;-)

But seeing this thread got me watching interviews, etc. And I'm no closer to the truth than before. My thoughts might go like this however.

Some confusion regarding his use of words. What we are seeing in his lyrics is not Se-Ti, but Se-Ni. There's a video out there of Bob Dylan reading the words of some barber shop or pet shop sign. This is something fun that Se-Ni types get into. 

Anyway, don't confuse his use of language with Ti. It's not really. 

I think the place to look is at the extroverted judging function, rather than the leading function. Does he express more Fe language (not sentiments, but Fe language) or Te language. Fi expresses verbally via Te and it can come across as quite harsh and angry. Put someone like him in a horrible environment, and you have a very harsh-sounding person. I saw an interview where he talks about the use of the word "******." To me, that sounds more like something an Fi-Te type would do than Ti-Fe. But that's just me. 

I don't know if I can accurately describe how Ti-Fe would express itself, but it seems to me that he would use more inclusive language--language that would attempt to attract sympathy for his cause or for how he feels, rather than pushing you away, he would want you to feel sorry for his plight or want to excuse or forgive him in some way. But that's my guess. I know my INTP wife, when she writes, she tries to find common ground, and to evoke some sort of sympathetic reaction in a substantial way. I try that in my writings, but it always sounds a bit forced to me when I read what I wrote compared to her. She is much better, for instance, at writing thank you letters or invitations than I am. I would suspect that Ti-Fe in an ISTP would be comparable, especially in music.

Now, because he is a performer, and because he is a rapper, maybe all of these differences are muddied and smeared over, and I suspect that that may be the case. He's an ISTP play acting at being "sensitive", or maybe he's an ISFP trying to play tough and hide his sensitive side. I don't think we really can know very definitively. That's my conclusion. The fact that we have nine pages, and people changing their minds mid-stream suggests to me we can't type him anywhere near accurately.


----------



## Captain Mclain

This thread become overly complex imo. Id say still its obvious he is creative Se and I do still think he communicate Fe and not Te. To type from songs can sometimes be a longshot. Someone might have written parts of some of them, perhaps he is writing stories taken from a Fi-doms life. I think the interviews are best because thats really him, not worked on or any lost information.


----------



## ferroequinologist

Captain Mclain said:


> This thread become overly complex imo. Id say still its obvious he is creative Se and I do still think he communicate Fe and not Te. To type from songs can sometimes be a longshot. Someone might have written parts of some of them, perhaps he is writing stories taken from a Fi-doms life. I think the interviews are best because thats really him, not worked on or any lost information.


The interviews I've watched, he seems to work hard at being inscrutable. He plays the tough guy, and only says the most minimum. IMO, the closest thing I've seen to Ti is his shoe boxes full of words. I don't see myself ever doing that... but I could see a Ti-dom doing that. But that is such a thin line of reasoning, that I don't trust it. Otherwise, I've really had a hard time pinning him. Sometimes, I think I see Ti others, Fi. 

Here's a question. Do ISTPs, when done performing, simply walk off the stage, or do they soak in the applause? ISFPs tend to avoid the applause--once they're done, they may acknowledge the applause, but they are gone as soon as they can be. It's like they turned off the lights. Do ISTPs do this as well? or are they more open to the applause, and accepting of it? That would be someplace to look if ISTPs are different from ISFPs in this area.


----------



## Captain Mclain

ferroequinologist said:


> The interviews I've watched, he seems to work hard at being inscrutable. He plays the tough guy, and only says the most minimum. IMO, the closest thing I've seen to Ti is his shoe boxes full of words. I don't see myself ever doing that... but I could see a Ti-dom doing that. But that is such a thin line of reasoning, that I don't trust it. Otherwise, I've really had a hard time pinning him. Sometimes, I think I see Ti others, Fi.
> 
> Here's a question. Do ISTPs, when done performing, simply walk off the stage, or do they soak in the applause? ISFPs tend to avoid the applause--once they're done, they may acknowledge the applause, but they are gone as soon as they can be. It's like they turned off the lights. Do ISTPs do this as well? or are they more open to the applause, and accepting of it? That would be someplace to look if ISTPs are different from ISFPs in this area.


I... dont know. I have imagine istp to be hardworking backstage people mostly. That they kinda know if they did good or not and do not really need that outside validation. But this is mostly speculations.


----------



## Entropic

@wolf12345



> OKay, you analysis is fairly convincing, but I never doubted that song is a Fi song actually. You might have convinced others though. What gives me more doubts about him being a fi dom is stuff like that Purple Hills song, or like this:
> 
> I mean, WTF.


lol. As if this song means Manson cannot be an INTJ, either?











Does everything a gamma does be super-ultra-serious all the time? I don't think a couple of bad apples must point away from it, if it is clear this is not a consistency of his. And I thought that using Purple Hills is a bad example since it's a collab and may not wholly reflect him as an artist.



> IMO you can't really determine whether lyrical content is written with use of Fi function based on how "self-referential" it is. It might be correct on theoretical level (that "Fi is reffering to self") but it woudn't be visible in the lyrics.
> I actually might argue that the opposite is true - Fi, as a introverted function, will write less obvious, methaphorical lyrics, which actually DON'T refer to self. You might get impression that it is refering to "object" but in fact it's not - it's just less obvious; content might even be judgemental but you wouldn't be able to determine it with certainty... Which is the case of Stan (see how everyone in this thread have completely different interpretation of that song). The same case with Muses Animals. You have personal feeling there involved, just not stated obviously. Same with, for example, Regina Spektor. You might argue that she is a Fe type, because she often sings about "stuff", or with metaphors without referencing it to any first-person experience, or even sings in a third person (Laughting with); but in fact she is most obvious Fi type ever.
> Fe could be much less concerned with exposing self, hence it might appear much more self-referential when, let's say, it want to evoke certain feelings in listener, or when it expose certain feeling it get from without (from "object"; "objects" in this context are norms, feelings, morals).


I disagree. It's very easy to discern. Do they "value drop" and view/deal/treat values as objects in themselves? If yes, then Fe, if no, then Fi. And I thought I was clear on that I think Animals by Muse is an Fe song and Bellamy is an Fe type. You would have to use another example I am not familiar with and have a clear opinion on. Animals is a good example of the Fe values-dropping I just mentioned.


> Again - theoretically, yes. Fi is introverted so obviously it focus on subject and uses it as a reference point. Practically - often not visible.


Practically, it is visible since it will use Te as an anchor.



> Fe itself "denies idea o subjectivity", right. But a Fe user appear not any less focused on self than a Fi type. That's the whole idea. Unhealthy Fe type girl who is marring a guy for his social status, so she could fulfill a certain social contract (Jungs example) wouldn't feel any different emotions about it than a Fi dom who felt in love for quite different reasons. Lyrical content of songs generally deal with emotions, not jungian Fe or Fi as a method of judging informations. So the means of expressions of a Fi and Fe types will be quite similar, at least in a sense of "self-referencing". I think that if women from Jungs example had to write a poem, she wouldn't be not any less self-referential than any of your post child Fi doms. Example: Evanescence (ENFJ) song Imaginary.


Again, you are making it more complicated than it is. Are values treated objectively as objects in themselves? If yes, then Fe.



> But I think that object, as a philosophical term in jungian psychology, mean "idea taken from without". Hence Fe takes ideas (feelings, evaluations, etc.) from ouside and utilizes them. It doesn't necessarily "sees self as an object", not so much as it "evaluates based on objects", hence it makes feeling judgements based on what was "injected" to an Fe user from his environment. Nevertheless, a Fe user wouldn't feel any less personal about his feelings than a Fi type, and as a result he wouldn't make any less amount of self-references in lurics, as "objects" has already been utilized and are used as a "private emotions". Objects will be "translated" into personal emotions.
> 
> If I misunderstood your use of phrase "self-reference" or whatever feel free to correct.
> 
> 
> As for Eminem I feel torn now. Stan is quite a Fi song, as few other might be, but his vibe in lots of songs is pretty much what could be expected from a ST beta type, not an ISFP.


Yes, but an extrovert will deny the subjective perspective also, the subject itself which is you. It want to place the subject in the object world, becoming a part of it, too. This is why you will see that Fe types, when referring to their own feelings, will never do it from the perspective of themselves. No, it's their *hearts* roaring with passion.


----------



## Conterphobia

I need more manson in my life. Love that tainted love song.

+1 for bringing manson into the mix.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

I agree that Manson is an INTJ. I have seen him listed as an INFJ, but he has no Fe whatsoever. He judges by thinking.

What about Trent Reznor, The Beastie Boys, and Tupac? They seem to be using a lot of Se-Ni too. Anyone want to take them on?


----------



## Conterphobia

I got INFJ on Trent.


----------



## Word Dispenser

FearAndTrembling said:


> I agree that Manson is an INTJ. I have seen him listed as an INFJ, but he has no Fe whatsoever. He judges by thinking.
> 
> What about Trent Reznor, The Beastie Boys, and Tupac? They seem to be using a lot of Se-Ni too. Anyone want to take them on?


Tupac was definitely ENFJ. I mean... Yes. It seems very obvious when you watch an early interview with him. Fe-Ni all over the place.

Trent Reznor probably INFJ.


----------



## FearAndTrembling

Word Dispenser said:


> Tupac was definitely ENFJ. I mean... Yes. It seems very obvious when you watch an early interview with him. Fe-Ni all over the place.
> 
> Trent Reznor probably INFJ.


Tupac does use a lot of Fe. He is quite personable. He was always one of my favorites. He is rallying people. He has an edgy Fe. It is so hip and biting, it can appear to be Fi. The song Hit em Up. lol. It sounds so Fi. It is basically just gossip though. He is like Oprah. He is about the community. He makes anthems. He is also hilarious.


----------



## Entropic

I've been musing over the idea of Trent Reznor being an ISTP lately. He doesn't seem like a feeler in interviews.


----------



## Captain Mclain

If Eminem is ISTP, and Lana Del Rey is ISFP. Would it not make sense? Taking the music and videos. Both heavy contrast with colors and "objects", both kinda bending words (lana del rey even more it seems, kinda drag out the words) but different content focus. (trying find some contrast of the types)


----------



## Entropic

Captain Mclain said:


> If Eminem is ISTP, and Lana Del Rey is ISFP. Would it not make sense? Taking the music and videos. Both heavy contrast with colors and "objects", both kinda bending words (lana del rey even more it seems, kinda drag out the words) but different content focus. (trying find some contrast of the types)


No, because gender, music genre and enneatype differences. Try to find *any* hip-hop video shot similar to Lana Del Ray's. You won't find any, because it doesn't conform to the hypermasculine presentation of hip-hop music, that Eminem in particular, endorses.

I mean, for a comparison here, this is both INTJ content:











Both representing extremes of their genres, but what similarity do you see in the videos? None. Because different genres endorse different acceptable aesthetics.


----------



## Captain Mclain

Entropic said:


> No, because gender, music genre and enneatype differences. Try to find *any* hip-hop video shot similar to Lana Del Ray's. You won't find any, because it doesn't conform to the hypermasculine presentation of hip-hop music, that Eminem in particular, endorses.
> 
> I mean, for a comparison here, this is both INTJ content:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both representing extremes of their genres, but what similarity do you see in the videos? None. Because different genres endorse different acceptable aesthetics.


both are kinda miserable and crazy?  And dark. And absurd. Dark shadow people with white eyes kinda thing and the other vid is also kinda shadow/zombie/satanistic theme. Abstractions of some persons internal miserable feelings.


----------



## Entropic

Captain Mclain said:


> both are kinda miserable and crazy?  And dark. And absurd. Dark shadow people with white eyes kinda thing and the other vid is also kinda shadow/zombie/satanistic theme. Abstractions of some persons internal miserable feelings.


Yeah, and the argument about Lana and Eminem if so is that both are shot with a lot of color, so what's the point?


----------



## owlboy

I was skeptical of the ''Eminem is an ISTP'' arguments but I can totally see it now.

He has this low level sort of paranoia / martyr complex thing going on [''everyone wants to mess with me but I'll show them blaahh''] that reminds me of my ESTP friends.


----------



## Conterphobia




----------



## Entropic

owlboy said:


> I was skeptical of the ''Eminem is an ISTP'' arguments but I can totally see it now.
> 
> He has this low level sort of paranoia / martyr complex thing going on [''everyone wants to mess with me but I'll show them blaahh''] that reminds me of my ESTP friends.


That's typical of a lot of inferior Ni types, not just ESTPs but applies to all SPs.


----------



## something987

Eminem is an ISTP hands down.


----------



## Conterphobia

Should we wrap this thing up? Looks like the dust has settled and not much more is going on here. Thanks everyone for your input.


----------



## ferroequinologist

I'll one-up you on this video:







:crazy:


----------



## Conterphobia

Close to post-modern.

[Edit] He blows its all over. < .<


----------



## Mimic octopus

Entropic said:


> I've been musing over the idea of Trent Reznor being an ISTP lately. He doesn't seem like a feeler in interviews.


There is a lot of diversity amongst feelers, it might just be Fi stoicism. I'd say he does though because when he talked about Johnny Cash covering his song he said it felt like a 'pat on the back' and he also focuses on his band-mate's feelings and opinions when he talks too.


----------



## star tripper

Why have you guys ruled INTJ out for Trent Reznor? He strikes me as so ridiculously Ni+Fi it's crazy (Ni being the dominant function since everything is getting filtered through it).


----------



## Deity

Ahahaha everyone knows Eminem is the 17th personality type: TRSS, otherwise known as "The Real Slim Shady".


----------



## Entropic

Patrick_1 said:


> There is a lot of diversity amongst feelers, it might just be Fi stoicism. I'd say he does though because when he talked about Johnny Cash covering his song he said it felt like a 'pat on the back' and he also focuses on his band-mate's feelings and opinions when he talks too.


I don't type someone a feeler based on whether they are emotional or not. 


star tripper said:


> Why have you guys ruled INTJ out for Trent Reznor? He strikes me as so ridiculously Ni+Fi it's crazy (Ni being the dominant function since everything is getting filtered through it).


That's the thing, Trent doesn't seem Fi at all. Compare him to Marilyn Manson who is ridiculously Fi. Trent is Fe.


----------



## ferroequinologist

Entropic said:


> I don't type someone a feeler based on whether they are emotional or not.
> 
> 
> That's the thing, Trent doesn't seem Fi at all. Compare him to Marilyn Manson who is ridiculously Fi. Trent is Fe.


I'm curious if you think if Hurt is an Fi or Fe song...


----------



## star tripper

^ Yeah, that's the thing, I was gonna prepare an argument for Fi by using TDS songs, but songs outside of TDS do point toward Fe, don't they? Like "The Collector," "The Fragile," and "Echoplex."


----------



## ferroequinologist

star tripper said:


> ^ Yeah, that's the thing, I was gonna prepare an argument for Fi by using TDS songs, but songs outside of TDS do point toward Fe, don't they? Like "The Collector," "The Fragile," and "Echoplex."


Actually, I wouldn't know. I've never listened to them. I only know Hurt because of Johnny Cash and Halo (longish story)


----------



## Entropic

ferroequinologist said:


> I'm curious if you think if Hurt is an Fi or Fe song...


Johnny Cash or Nine Inch Nails?


----------



## ferroequinologist

Entropic said:


> Johnny Cash or Nine Inch Nails?


Same song. Why would it make a difference?


----------



## Entropic

ferroequinologist said:


> Same song. Why would it make a difference?


Well, I didn't know if they were the same song or not, aside sharing title. With that said, I think the lyrics are pretty Ji, at least, but most of all they are 8-ish. I lean Fi though, because of these lines:



> I will let you down
> I will make you hurt


And:


> Full of broken thoughts
> I cannot repair


And:



> What have I become
> My sweetest friend
> Everyone I know goes away
> In the end
> And you could have it all
> My empire of dirt
> I will let you down
> I will make you hurt
> 
> If I could start again
> A million miles away
> I would keep myself
> I would find a way


----------



## star tripper

ferroequinologist said:


> Actually, I wouldn't know. I've never listened to them. I only know Hurt because of Johnny Cash and Halo (longish story)


TDS is a concept album that details a man systematically losing his mind and committing heinous acts before killing himself ("Hurt" serves as an epilogue). The songs don't really show any action and just illustrate his internal reactions to shit that happens to him and all his rationalizations. 

But then outside of TDS (which feels Fi-heavy because it explores a depth of emotion), you get songs like the ones I mentioned. Here are the lyrics to see what I mean.


* *




I pick things up, I am a collector
And things, well things, they tend to accumulate
I have this net, it drags behind me
It picks up feelings for me to feed upon

There are times, plenty of times
I wish I could let it go
But it's time to breed
And it's got to grow inside me

There are times, plenty of times
I wish I could let it go
But it's time to make me think things
I don't want to know

I'm trying to fit it all inside
I'm trying to open my mouth wide
I'm trying not to choke
And swallow it all
Swallow it all
Swallow it all
Swallow it all

I am the plague
I am the swarm
All your heart sticks on me
And I keep it warm

It'll make me stay
It won't let me leave
There are so goddamn many of them
It gets hard to breathe

I'm trying to fit it all inside
I'm trying to open my mouth wide
I'm trying not to choke inside
I am a good boy, and I will
Swallow it all
Swallow it all
Swallow it all
Swallow it all

Every last one




and


* *




She shines
In a world full of ugliness
She matters when everything is meaningless

Fragile
She doesn't see her beauty
She tries to get away
Sometimes
It's just that nothing seems worth saving
I can't watch her slip away

I won't let you fall apart

She reads the minds of all the people as they pass her by
Hoping someone can see
If I could fix myself I'd - but it's too late for me

I wont let you fall apart

We'll find the perfect place to go where we can run and hide
I'll build a wall and we can keep them on the other side
...but they keep waiting
...and picking...

It's something I have to do
I was there, too
Before everything else
I was like you




and


* *




nice and high and far apart 
just like they said 
i built this place with broken parts 
just like they said 
you chip away the old version of you 
you'd be surprised at what you can do 
i'm safe in here 
irrelevant 
just like they said 

my voice just echoes off these walls 

you feel me breathe 
i am watching you 
i see it all 
the many ways you can't get to me 
i see it all 
i see the hell you put yourself through 
oh the things i could do (if i wanted to) 

my voice just echoes off these walls 
my voice just echoes off these walls 
i don't need anything at all 
my voice just echoes off these walls 

and i just slowly fade away 

you will never ever get to me in here


----------



## ferroequinologist

star tripper said:


> TDS is a concept album that details a man systematically losing his mind and committing heinous acts before killing himself ("Hurt" serves as an epilogue). The songs don't really show any action and just illustrate his internal reactions to shit that happens to him and all his rationalizations.
> 
> But then outside of TDS (which feels Fi-heavy because it explores a depth of emotion), you get songs like the ones I mentioned. Here are the lyrics to see what I mean.
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I pick things up, I am a collector
> And things, well things, they tend to accumulate
> I have this net, it drags behind me
> It picks up feelings for me to feed upon
> 
> There are times, plenty of times
> I wish I could let it go
> But it's time to breed
> And it's got to grow inside me
> 
> There are times, plenty of times
> I wish I could let it go
> But it's time to make me think things
> I don't want to know
> 
> I'm trying to fit it all inside
> I'm trying to open my mouth wide
> I'm trying not to choke
> And swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> 
> I am the plague
> I am the swarm
> All your heart sticks on me
> And I keep it warm
> 
> It'll make me stay
> It won't let me leave
> There are so goddamn many of them
> It gets hard to breathe
> 
> I'm trying to fit it all inside
> I'm trying to open my mouth wide
> I'm trying not to choke inside
> I am a good boy, and I will
> Swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> Swallow it all
> 
> Every last one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She shines
> In a world full of ugliness
> She matters when everything is meaningless
> 
> Fragile
> She doesn't see her beauty
> She tries to get away
> Sometimes
> It's just that nothing seems worth saving
> I can't watch her slip away
> 
> I won't let you fall apart
> 
> She reads the minds of all the people as they pass her by
> Hoping someone can see
> If I could fix myself I'd - but it's too late for me
> 
> I wont let you fall apart
> 
> We'll find the perfect place to go where we can run and hide
> I'll build a wall and we can keep them on the other side
> ...but they keep waiting
> ...and picking...
> 
> It's something I have to do
> I was there, too
> Before everything else
> I was like you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nice and high and far apart
> just like they said
> i built this place with broken parts
> just like they said
> you chip away the old version of you
> you'd be surprised at what you can do
> i'm safe in here
> irrelevant
> just like they said
> 
> my voice just echoes off these walls
> 
> you feel me breathe
> i am watching you
> i see it all
> the many ways you can't get to me
> i see it all
> i see the hell you put yourself through
> oh the things i could do (if i wanted to)
> 
> my voice just echoes off these walls
> my voice just echoes off these walls
> i don't need anything at all
> my voice just echoes off these walls
> 
> and i just slowly fade away
> 
> you will never ever get to me in here


I dunno... Those all sound pretty Fi to me. Notice the separation from others, not a real reaching out, not a real connection to the other, but more like a longing or projecting of self onto others. But to me, the big thing is that distance that exists--and always there. 

"I'll build a wall and we can keep them on the other side" 
(this is very true for Fi types--one or two others inside the wall--the rest outside.)

"I'm safe in here
Irrelevant just like they said"
(again, that separation)

That swallowing song... think about that... Fi absorbs--swallows, but never regurgitates. Fe is nothing but. ;-)

And through it all, notice how indirect it is--never really stating its point, never being direct and never simply stating what it wants, what it needs, and never, ever directly relating to other people--they are always in the third person, with few exceptions, which simply underscore the sense of distance. I really don't see Fe there, nor a desire for it. But I could be reading myself into it too.


----------



## star tripper

ferroequinologist said:


> I dunno... Those all sound pretty Fi to me. Notice the separation from others, not a real reaching out, not a real connection to the other, but more like a longing or projecting of self onto others. But to me, the big thing is that distance that exists--and always there.
> 
> "I'll build a wall and we can keep them on the other side"
> (this is very true for Fi types--one or two others inside the wall--the rest outside.)
> 
> "I'm safe in here
> Irrelevant just like they said"
> (again, that separation)
> 
> That swallowing song... think about that... Fi absorbs--swallows, but never regurgitates. Fe is nothing but. ;-)
> 
> And through it all, notice how indirect it is--never really stating its point, never being direct and never simply stating what it wants, what it needs, and never, ever directly relating to other people--they are always in the third person, with few exceptions, which simply underscore the sense of distance. I really don't see Fe there, nor a desire for it. But I could be reading myself into it too.


I was thinking of it as Fe-overload and a response to said overload. The way I took "The Collector," for instance, is that he was taking other people's burdens onto himself, like Atlas, and it became too much. And his reaction to seeing his grandma live in a cruel world in "The Fragile" is to sort of keep her in a little box away from the ugliness. So Fe doesn't withdraw from the world when the world gets too difficult to cope with? I suppose that would go against the nature of extraversion.


----------



## Cobble

I would say ISTP all the way.

Why ? Just a *hunch *without proper explanation.

I work in an Art-related domain. And the people called the most "sensitive", feelings driven, denouncing-all-the-shits-of-life are unexpectedly... Ti-dom. I think it comes from the fact that T-type don't base their decisions on feelings in general, and when it comes to self-expression, it just comes in a explosive way. You get all the inferior FEELS drama who never expresses itself, never take care of itself in his daily life, and who found a way to get out through Art. They also are, surprisingly, a lot less secretive than Fi-users when it comes to expressing their feelings and personal experiences through Art. There's something very cathartic in their approach, like, the will to pull out all their hidden sensibilities and *yell *it out.

Totally a "_Take all my feelings in your face, I fucking don't give a shit._"

It's very *raw*. You could say, *explosive*. And totally *naked*.

While Fi-dom usually are more chill in this domain. In their every day life : they take care of what make them feel good, they pursue what make them feel good internally. And even when they denounce stuffs, you can sense they gave a lot of thoughts about it, that they are a lot more at peace with it, so they express themselves in usually nuanced/funny/quirky way. More in a_ "We're all so twisted, let's kill them all -_-  -_- " _ way. They would say they are expressing their raw emotions, but they are actually very refined, nuanced even when they're being crude. 

That's it. I just wanted to express that because I find this experience of mine pretty ironic. 

Also. I wanted to express that because someone is "emotional" "sensitive" "feeling-driven" (or speaking about injustice, love, compassion, feelings, whatsoever), doesn't mean that he isn't a T. - and VICE VERSA. I used to mistype my (ex) as a ESFP because of that. But no, he was a ISTP under the "haunted artist who despises society" charm. Inferior Fe/Fi : _ "More a feeler than any feeler"_. The irony.


note : I'm not gonna analyze the ISFP vs ISTP Eminem matter. I don't want to go through all Eminem songs and interviews to check whether he's really Ti-dom or Fi-dom.


----------



## edge magic

I would actually say ISFP. Many fi doms on the outside can see really tough, but on the inside sensitive without showing it.


----------



## holly182

edge magic said:


> I would actually say ISFP. Many fi doms on the outside can see really tough, but on the inside sensitive without showing it.


Yes, it is. Many ISFP don't let people see their sensitive side, their inner world .


----------



## typethisperson

Stevester said:


> LOL @ the notion of him being ''tough'', he's a modern-day Napoleon.
> 
> Actually I think the reason why people would see him as a T is because a lot of his lyrics and videos are extremely crude, sarcastic and offensive which many associate with TP types. Not every feeler takes everything super seriously all the time.


mabye his Slim Shady persona can seem T but his lyrics are so unhealthy Fi.


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## typethisperson

Lynway said:


> I would say ISTP all the way.
> 
> Why ? Just a *hunch *without proper explanation.


smfh.


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## Parrot

ISTP type 8. Having some strong opinions on something is not Fi. Mostly, he just goes with the flow and observes; then writes so raw lyrics roasting people.


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## Conterphobia

Lynway said:


> I would say ISTP all the way.
> 
> Why ? Just a *hunch *without proper explanation.
> 
> I work in an Art-related domain. And the people called the most "sensitive", feelings driven, denouncing-all-the-shits-of-life are unexpectedly... Ti-dom. I think it comes from the fact that T-type don't base their decisions on feelings in general, and when it comes to self-expression, it just comes in a explosive way. You get all the inferior FEELS drama who never expresses itself, never take care of itself in his daily life, and who found a way to get out through Art. They also are, surprisingly, a lot less secretive than Fi-users when it comes to expressing their feelings and personal experiences through Art. There's something very cathartic in their approach, like, the will to pull out all their hidden sensibilities and *yell *it out.
> 
> Totally a "_Take all my feelings in your face, I fucking don't give a shit._"
> 
> It's very *raw*. You could say, *explosive*. And totally *naked*.
> 
> While Fi-dom usually are more chill in this domain. In their every day life : they take care of what make them feel good, they pursue what make them feel good internally. And even when they denounce stuffs, you can sense they gave a lot of thoughts about it, that they are a lot more at peace with it, so they express themselves in usually nuanced/funny/quirky way. More in a_ "We're all so twisted, let's kill them all -_-  -_- " _ way. They would say they are expressing their raw emotions, but they are actually very refined, nuanced even when they're being crude.
> 
> That's it. I just wanted to express that because I find this experience of mine pretty ironic.
> 
> Also. I wanted to express that because someone is "emotional" "sensitive" "feeling-driven" (or speaking about injustice, love, compassion, feelings, whatsoever), doesn't mean that he isn't a T. - and VICE VERSA. I used to mistype my (ex) as a ESFP because of that. But no, he was a ISTP under the "haunted artist who despises society" charm. Inferior Fe/Fi : _ "More a feeler than any feeler"_. The irony.
> 
> 
> note : I'm not gonna analyze the ISFP vs ISTP Eminem matter. I don't want to go through all Eminem songs and interviews to check whether he's really Ti-dom or Fi-dom.


I think what you say here really applies to where the F function fits into the stack of functions. If the feeling function is in the first two functions, then it's a much more mature in the way it comes across. Conversely to that, if the F function falls in the last two functions, it's likely to come out in a very immature way.

That said, I still think this doesn't really clear up whether eminem uses his F function in a mature or immature way. You can argue either or IMO.


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## Quernus

ISFP, but an ISTP wannabe.

For one thing, where in the heck is there even a trace of Fe on the guy?

He is dripping with Fi, and seems to makes decisions the way an F would. He's very subjective with his feelings and his ...values/worldviews, and lets that dictate everything for him. Just because someone is cold and mean doesn't make them a T.

He acts like he doesn't give a crap what anyone thinks - and in some ways that is true, he says and does whatever he wants despite criticism. He gets off on making a show of it. But, he is a big baby about it and petty and obviously really cares. I don't think most ISTPs would go through the trouble to appear like a big tough jigglypuff but then get pissed off and defensive when people talk crap. It's more of an immature Fi behavior.


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## OliveBranch

A lot of Fi doms appear to be Ti doms, because they work to have a stoic and strong appearance, but his lyrics embody Fi in my opinion. Not saying that an ISTP couldn't write about emotional topics, but he speaks from a very personal place, and how everything in his life has impacted him emotionally. He is very authentic and passionate about the music, and it's less about finding lyrics that are relatable or that people will value, not that he doesn't care about that, but it's definitely not where is coming from.


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## Aluminum Frost

I think ISTP, him being how he is isn't Fi so much as it's he's a neurotic enneagram 6


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## spaceynyc

his Fi is so obvious to me. ISFP


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## Reila

OliveBranch said:


> A lot of Fi doms appear to be Ti doms, because they work to have a stoic and strong appearance


That implies Fi-doms attempt to look stoic and strong, while it is something natural. The stoic, aloof thing, anyways.

As for Eminem, I think he is a feeler, for sure and Fi does seem more likely than Fe.


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## soop

Error 3w4

Ti not found


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## spaceynyc

soop said:


> Error 3w4
> 
> Ti not found


Agree with the second part but he’s totally a counterphobic 6


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## soop

spaceynyc said:


> Agree with the second part but he’s totally a counterphobic 6


ayyy:tongue:


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## Monadnock

The impression I get from Eminem is either INTJ with strong Fi, INFP or ISFP. Whatever MBTI type he is, the Introverted Feeling is thick enough to cut with a knife.


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## Conterphobia

I find it kinda odd that every once in awhile this thread comes back to life but with few actual new developments or information...


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## shinedowness

opcorn: *Thinks that Eminem might not have taken the MBTI test yet, so people's words here may or may not be relevant to who he really is.*


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## isfpisfp

He's Fi dom which makes him "too smart for his own good" and makes decisions on morals without really thinking it through. case in point this cringeworthy video


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## Stevester

^ This is another good case for Fi over Ti. No matter what you think of it, you see the intensity. He has a message. TP types who have taken on Trump usually do it with smartass humor.


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## Conterphobia

I am now convinced that Eminem (Marshall Mathers) is ISFP.

I recently bought his new album "Revival" it's very good and by far his most creative and artistic work to date IMO. It also delves into some very personal shit and I really like that aspect of this album. I think this album is by far way more ISFP than ISTP.


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