# Why are ''Counterphobic'' Sixes and Enneagram Eights often conflated? I don't get it



## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

They don't have the same motivations at all. Like not even close. Even a ''Counterphobic'' 6 is still a 6, he will be motivated by 6 things and the 8 will be motivated by 8 things. I don't believe a cp 6 can ''act like an 8'' which is what I've heard a lot over the years. 

By the way wouldn't ''acting like something'' be more of a 3 or 4 trait?

Also, 6's can be strong, it doesn't mean they're counterphobic.


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## Jaune (Jul 11, 2013)

Unfortunately, a lot of people are hung up on typing enneagram through behaviors, which are often stereotypical, rather than looking into core motivations.

I'm in the same boat, I think CP 6s are inherently different than 8s, and that not all people who type as CP 6 are even CP. I would go as far as to say CP and P labels are completely unnecessary since every 6 is a 6 and would have signs of both, which are irrelevant to the core fears.

However, I think what they mean by "act like an 8" is having similar behaviors. Not necessarily that they're trying to put an image on for the sake of wanting to appear that way.


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## Karkino (May 25, 2017)

CelineDijon said:


> They don't have the same motivations at all. Like not even close. Even a ''Counterphobic'' 6 is still a 6, he will be motivated by 6 things and the 8 will be motivated by 8 things. I don't believe a cp 6 can ''act like an 8'' which is what I've heard a lot over the years.
> 
> By the way wouldn't ''acting like something'' be more of a 3 or 4 trait?
> 
> Also, 6's can be strong, it doesn't mean they're counterphobic.


If you use the tritype theory, then it starts making more sense, at least imo, that SIXes are much more likely to be confused with EIGHTs than any other enneatype. SIXes with an EIGHT fix (682, 683 and 684) fulfill their basic desire of feeling safe by going after what they fear and eliminate the problem at the source. While SIXes of any tritype are able to become counterphobic and manifest assertive or aggressive behavior, adding the EIGHT fix to the mix is like cranking the ambivalent SIX energy to a stronger need to cut the bogus crap out of the way and calling out what is insincere to them. However, the main behavioral manifestation of the type will remain present the whole time : SIXes are testers and try to sniff out the problem before being in trouble. They can be much more provocative and anti-autoritarian than EIGHTS who will act fiercely only if said issue is preventing them from reaching their goals first. 

SIXes shift their behavior more frequently (especially if anxious) and exude visible anxiety throught their facial expression. EIGHTs become unmoveable and steely when confronted, puffing their body energy outwardly like any animal in attacking or defensive mode. 

SIXes are fast-talking their way through an argument and try to find an opening in their opponent's statements. EIGHTs deny any weakness and use weight or emphasis in their way of speaking, often using short but powerful statements to stump opposition.

Finally, SIXes are extremely diverse in their way of handling danger in general, more than any other type imo. While it is always used as a way to quell their anxiety and be certain of what's ahead of them, their behavior is surprisingly adaptable and unpredictable at times. EIGHTs are much more predictable as they stick to their principles and don't budge an inch like rocks.


I hope my whole explanation is understandable


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

CelineDijon said:


> I don't believe a cp 6 can ''act like an 8'' which is what I've heard a lot over the years.


I rarely use P/CP distinctions with 6, since I believe most 6s reside close to the middle of that spectrum (and all of us use both strategies at times), but I'll describe to you the one individual I've ever met who I have to admit was a clear, striking CP 6w7. 

I believe this girl was an ENFJ - at least when healthy, she was friendly, assertive, focused, productive, and aesthetic. I met her when working together at a small grocery store. She was surprisingly aggressive for someone so otherwise cooperative and team-oriented. She had a tendency to get in drama/fights, both social and physical. She would often talk negatively and aggressively of the person she was feeling threatened by, though she would be passive aggressive around them more than openly hostile. She would also sometimes brag about the "tough" things she did, like going 4-wheeling on a dangerous course or getting drunk and tripping with an old guy friend. On social media, she alternates between posting really sweet photos of her kids or supportive messages for her coworkers/community and then things like "don't mess with me". 

So basically even though she was actually tiny in stature she could come across quite a bit like an 8 in the way that she was assertive, seemingly confrontational, and definitely territorial. I believe she was also sx/so, adding to her intense outward presentation. That said she had a much more defensive, feisty, and hot-cold style than the 8s I have known, who are more "full steam ahead".


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

right now amongst corona virus , many 6SX are like "the govt is taking our rights, lets protest" 

and 8's are like "idgaf"


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## Nicholasjh1 (Feb 6, 2018)

Why this meme that 6s are anti authoritarian? they definitely pick their group to follow and it can go against government but they are but no means anti authoritarian... only if their authority is against another authority.


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## Karkino (May 25, 2017)

Nicholasjh1 said:


> Why this meme that 6s are anti authoritarian? they definitely pick their group to follow and it can go against government but they are but no means anti authoritarian... only if their authority is against another authority.


Part of the SIX defense strategy is to question other people's intention in order to get a clear picture of what awaits them in the long run. They are often doubting themselves and others even though they want safety from a group. This is why they are called anti-authoritarian sometimes, especially in unhealthy stages.


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## Full_fathom_4 (Jan 23, 2018)

6 isn't group. They might look at groups, they might even react to them occasionally, but the LCD is the experience of fear and safety/anxiety..... broadly stated. What they do is build a defense to live with it based on right-angle thinking, to include predictability, consensus, authenticity, correctness (as an organic repetition.... it's organic no?), acceptance for their methods (9) and admiration of their efforts (3). I'm being generous, there's a dark side too obviously. Take the previous sentence and put the devil to work. Penance, hide and seek, projection of (a punishing) authority upon others. 

8 is 8. Big zoo lizard chomping on a half-thawed chicken leg quarter. They react against the god-given ability of you standing between them and the chicken, to instill their own (distorted) 'right' to existence. That's what they're missing, the idealistic notion that other ppl might need some chicken too (um, 2). So they plot and plan ways to get over on you (5). They might even enjoy this, the way a 6 enjoys a peaceful place. 

So yeah I'm not sure how they get confused.


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## Nicholasjh1 (Feb 6, 2018)

Karkino said:


> Part of the SIX defense strategy is to question other people's intention in order to get a clear picture of what awaits them in the long run. They are often doubting themselves and others even though they want safety from a group. This is why they are called anti-authoritarian sometimes, especially in unhealthy stages.


I would agree. I just don't think it's correct to always think of them as "anti-authoritarian", I can only really speak from my own experience with a 6, but she would latch onto whatever group or authority she was into at the time (after a slow building of trust) and become very committed to them, at least until it "betrayed" her and they should would cut ties.


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## sweetrice (Jun 21, 2019)

CelineDijon said:


> They don't have the same motivations at all. Like not even close. Even a ''Counterphobic'' 6 is still a 6, he will be motivated by 6 things and the 8 will be motivated by 8 things. I don't believe a cp 6 can ''act like an 8'' which is what I've heard a lot over the years.
> 
> By the way wouldn't ''acting like something'' be more of a 3 or 4 trait?
> 
> Also, 6's can be strong, it doesn't mean they're counterphobic.



Because even though on the inside they're different, on the outside to the untrained eye/those who don't know enneagram so well yet they can seem kind of similar, I think.


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## shotgunfingers (May 6, 2020)

CelineDijon said:


> They don't have the same motivations at all. Like not even close. Even a ''Counterphobic'' 6 is still a 6, he will be motivated by 6 things and the 8 will be motivated by 8 things. I don't believe a cp 6 can ''act like an 8'' which is what I've heard a lot over the years.
> 
> By the way wouldn't ''acting like something'' be more of a 3 or 4 trait?
> 
> Also, 6's can be strong, it doesn't mean they're counterphobic.



CP 6 is confrontational like an 8, but there is a difference. The CP 6 agression comes from a place of fear & weakness, it is a defense mecanism, more bark than bite, something like when a pufferfish puffs itself up to make itself seem bigger to predators. Type 8 in contrast has a desire to dominate, to take control, the 6 has no such inclination.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@CelineDijon

Are you aware of the basic fear responses called: "Fight or flight"? Technically, there's 3 responses, we can fight, we can flee, or we can get stuck in a loop of trying to decide whether to fight or flee and wind up doing neither (the proverbial: "deer in headlights" response). Pretty much a six cycles between these three responses on a regular basis, depending on how stable their life is and how healthy they tend to be. In my estimation, sixes are not entirely phobic, or counter-phobic, and sometimes may be a little both. It often depends on how safe they feel at the moment. 

A phobic six is going want to run and hide, or seek out someone/something who makes them feel safe. This is the "flight" response. A phobic six is generally letting their fears control them, instead of controlling their fears. A phobic six is seeking a safe harbor from their fears. They will go to great lengths to avoid the object of their fear. 

A CP six is generally saying to the world: "I dare you to scare me." and this the "fight" response. This six is every bit as scared as a phobic six, but refuses to back down. There's a reckless desperation to their desire to be scared. They don't want to cower and hide. They want to face their fears. The scarier, the better. The thing is a six is essentially psyching themselves out of being afraid. CP sixes don't avoid their fears, they run right up to it and smack them around, and hope none of the, try to smack them back. The problem is, if you call a CP 6 on it, they will usually find some way to back off, if they can.

An Eight doesn't have to psyche themselves out of being afraid because they would rather gnaw their own arm off than ever admit to it. They mask their fear not out of desperation. They cloak it in a sense of outright defiance and a desire to never admit or experience any feelings of vulnerability. The 8 is essentially saying: "Who has time to be afraid? I'm too busy kicking ass and taking names! I'm no weakling! I'm in charge! Hear me ROAR!"

The underlying motivations are very distinct, when you know what to look for, but at first glance, how would anyone tell the difference? In both instances you have someone who is very much in your face but one is clearly operating out of fear, and one is operating from a standpoint of never slowing down long enough to even acknowledge anything, let alone fear. An eight always wants to have power and control and will angrily deny anything less.


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## baitedcrow (Dec 22, 2015)

Nicholasjh1 said:


> I would agree. I just don't think it's correct to always think of them as "anti-authoritarian", I can only really speak from my own experience with a 6, but she would latch onto whatever group or authority she was into at the time (after a slow building of trust) and become very committed to them, at least until it "betrayed" her and they should would cut ties.


You're being perceptive here. Sixes have an _orientation_ toward authority, which alone doesn't tell you whether they'll be anti-authoritarian or authoritarian, just that they're naturally attentive to authority and somewhat hierarchical in their thinking regardless whether they're supporting it or trying to dismantle it.

IME some 6es lean one way, some lean another, for many their behavior is extremely contextual - they may be deferential to authority in their workplace, dictatorial toward members of their family they see as being below them in the hierarchy, and rebellious toward religious authority, all during the same period of their life, for example. It depends on how they've logic-ed things out for themselves. 

This is one of the main bones I have to pick with for instance Helen Palmer, who claims 6es are "egalitarian" (paraphrasing). Palmer is a 6 and I suspect 6 tendencies manifest _in her_ as a scrupulous tendency toward egalitarianism, as they definitely do for some 6es. But I think she's engaging in a bit of typical mind fallacy by assuming that it's going to manifest that way for all 6es across the board.

Per Naranjo one of the main points of contrast between 6 and the types on either side of it (5 and 7) is that 6 is more hierarchical in its thinking and in many cases more comfortable pulling rank.

Compared to 5: 



> Also type 6 is comparatively more disciplined, and takes external authority more into account, both in terms of submissiveness to conventional or actual authority, and dominance towards those lower in the authority hierarchy.


Compared to 7:



> Whereas type 6 has a hierarchical view of relations type 7 approaches people as equals and is little intimidated by authority.


...Which is in line with how I see people I would consider 6es behaving esp. in comparison to other 5s and 7s, moreso than calling them "anti-authority" or "egalitarian" is.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

CP6s bait who they perceive to be authority figures (whether they are or aren't) and then cry foul/play victim after they get smacked around.

8s slug it out with authority figures we consider incompetent.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

i think some of the traits of the 6 seem to get interpreted in a negative way which I can't really understand. I mean, some of the things mentioned are good imo, questioning government/being skeptical/untrusting what's wrong with that? 

let me give you all a fictional scenario from a piece of entertainment I've seen recently, would this group of people be 6's? Here's their story arc: They are a group of men who do not like the system they're within, they see it as corrupt and want to destroy it. They also feel their talents and contributions aren't being rewarded and that they deserve more. They decide they will just take it by force from the system and they turn the entire system upside down through sheer protesting and violent onslaught to the authority in power. Physically destroying them also. The three guys dominate for many years and rise to power. They are violent but claim they live a life of justice and righting wrongs and that the violence is justified therefore, because they're righting wrongs.

Are those guys 6's?


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

CelineDijon said:


> i think some of the traits of the 6 seem to get interpreted in a negative way which I can't really understand. I mean, some of the things mentioned are good imo, questioning government/being skeptical/untrusting what's wrong with that?
> 
> let me give you all a fictional scenario from a piece of entertainment I've seen recently, would this group of people be 6's? Here's their story arc: They are a group of men who do not like the system they're within, they see it as corrupt and want to destroy it. They also feel their talents and contributions aren't being rewarded and that they deserve more. They decide they will just take it by force from the system and they turn the entire system upside down through sheer protesting and violent onslaught to the authority in power. Physically destroying them also. The three guys dominate for many years and rise to power. They are violent but claim they live a life of justice and righting wrongs and that the violence is justified therefore, because they're righting wrongs.
> 
> Are those guys 6's?


No they sound more like 8s. 8s despise injustice and incompetence, particularly from authority figures, and the more unhealthy they are, the more reckless and violent they're likely to be.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

shotgunfingers said:


> CP 6 is confrontational like an 8, but there is a difference. The CP 6 agression comes from a place of fear & weakness, it is a defense mecanism, more bark than bite, something like when a pufferfish puffs itself up to make itself seem bigger to predators. Type 8 in contrast has a desire to dominate, to take control, the 6 has no such inclination.


Of course, someone who is reacting from a place of fear & weakness can also have a desire to dominate and control.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

the 6 moves to 9 in integration, right? What does this really mean though, also if someone is cp6 are they just gone or can they return again to a place of peace and well being?


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## Heavy (Jun 16, 2010)

the first reason is that R & H wrongly attributed the self-protective gestalt of type six to type eight and, in turn, attributed the self-doubting, support-seeking qualities of type nine to type six. by way of review, the core desire for the six is to avoid being harmed (ex. duped, conned, controlled, attacked, pushed around, picked on). Thus, the main interest of the six is self-protection. With eight, the core avoidance is whatever you would call the state of not exercising power (ex. weakness, passivity, dependence, tender-mindedness). The main interest of the eight is exercising power. 

There's other reasons as well that I won't go into, but the six can often develop a power-orientation comes through defensive necessity....for the eight power-orientation ties into their core distortion that might makes right. sixes hide their vulnerability with anger whereas eights are out of touch with vulnerability. 

In contrast to eights, sixes have a life pattern of falling behind the eight-ball due to interpersonal conflicts. They have a fundamentally adversarial nature that can manifest, as previously pointed out, through an exaggerated againstness and they can devote their entire lives to taking people down, for better or worse (the vigilante; the adversary, 'diablo').

In contrast to sixes, eights have a life pattern of empire building from scratch, resource acquisition, and using aggression instrumentally in order to preserve, expand or consolidate their own dominance/control/order. The eight also has the requisite temperament for outwitting, outmanuevering, and outmuscling others in order to acquire their own spot at the top of the mountain. They are instinctually drawn to environments where boldness and hard-headed realism pays off, they are comfortable giving orders, and don't see a problem with using savage, diabolical methods. [As a point of note, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin and Al Capone had their own personal torture chambers. Capone was known for spending all night in there.] The thing to look for is that whatever position you find the eight in they will use that position in the most aggressive manner possible but not at the expense of being incompetent at that position….more often than not eights get their way. Aggression itself is a competency for getting ahead. In the less healthy levels, the eight is susceptible to engaging in criminal behavior through the use of violence and using intimidation/threats/manipulation of resources to make people do what they want and hold onto/expand their power base.


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## Snakebite (Aug 31, 2019)

As a 6w7, I can tell you that many people (unfamiliar with the nuisances of Enneagram) can be fooled into thinking the 6 is an 8. However, if the 6 is honest with themselves, they will know. I did, and the more Counter-phobic you are (frequency and intensity), the more embarrassing it is. 

Sixes are more unpredictable. Sixes do bark, but they also may bite (see Mike Tyson...like literally). 

After learning my Tritype (6x8), my behavior became much more clear to me.


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## Full_fathom_4 (Jan 23, 2018)

CelineDijon said:


> the 6 moves to 9 in integration, right? What does this really mean though, also if someone is cp6 are they just gone or can they return again to a place of peace and well being?


I used to think in these terms, but more and more I question the whole integration/dis-integration concept, it seems a little too idealized, like an invented E widget. The lines are undeniable, no doubt. To me, 6 to 9 represents an avenue of 'disengagement' from most of the cliches... structured, imaged (further from 3, offense is best defense), dogged, convicted religiously. But there's still some negatives in that movement too..... hiding away, blind acceptances, inertia toward fresh thinking etc. I can't call that 'integrative health', personally. This goes for the other types just as much, in their nature.


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

@Full_fathom_4
Yes, integration and disintegration goes both ways.


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## CelineDijon (Jul 5, 2016)

Snakebite said:


> As a 6w7, I can tell you that many people (unfamiliar with the nuisances of Enneagram) can be fooled into thinking the 6 is an 8. However, if the 6 is honest with themselves, they will know. I did, and the more Counter-phobic you are (frequency and intensity), the more embarrassing it is.
> 
> Sixes are more unpredictable. Sixes do bark, but they also may bite (see Mike Tyson...like literally).
> 
> After learning my Tritype (6x8), my behavior became much more clear to me.


Oddly enough it seems that like in Mike Tyson's case, the more Sixes are honest with themselves, the more they become more powerful and confident. He even recently got back into boxing after a long journey of being more honest with himself and all sorts of shit. He used to be thought of as an 8 but its clear he isn't if you watch a interview with him. Its sort of fascinating how Tyson was so dominant in the ring and evoked fear in others but outside of it he was insecure and a real mess in his personal life.


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