# Hitting a Woman = Unforgivable no matter what?



## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Women typically are physically weaker than men.


I can personally teach 90% of women how to physically take out 90% of people of any sex in 6 months.

So my point is that could very easily be solved, if one is willing to learn, has a few hours a week to train, and is willing to live a healthy lifestyle.


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## Baby Spidey (Jun 4, 2012)

B/C.

If I am going to control myself, then s/he better control him/herself too. No one has the right to hit me. If s/he lays a hand on me, then damn right I'll hit back, and I'll hit back even harder.

And when it pertains to D/s, I would never condone a Dom to hit their sub when they are angry.


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

Ideally no one would be hitting anyone. Though I can't imagine there being many scenarios one could justify hitting someone just because they're riled up, I don't find it surprising it happens when someone is relentless when they verbally barrage someone.
If you're up in someones face and they don't want no part of it and they suddenly explode back, well that's like poking at a snake with a stick. It wants you to mind your own business and you pissed it off so you got bitten.

I could probably forgive my partner if they slapped me but then again I don't really want to stick around with someone who is an adult and thinks it's okay to hit me.


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## Ramysa (Mar 22, 2012)

C . Hitting has no excuse . We're not animals, we're supposed to control ourselves and to discuss the problems we have.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

Ramysa said:


> C . Hitting has no excuse . We're not animals, we're supposed to control ourselves and to discuss the problems we have.


In a civilized society, animals that can't control themselves are kept in a zoo.


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

fourtines said:


> > If you believe in patriarchy and keeping women weak, then yes hitting a woman should be more unforgivable than hitting a man, clearly.
> 
> 
> Women typically are physically weaker than men.


The way I look at it is that the degree of forgivableness (or lack there of) should not depend on sex, but, on average it should be more unforgivable to hit a woman in compassion to hitting a man. 

I think the degree of unforgivableness should depend on the threat and toughness of the person being hit and the amount of force behind the hit and the placement. For instance, I think it is much more unforgivable to hit a man with a very scrawny body that hurts easily that it would be to hit a female bodybuilder who is skilled in some martial arts and is used to sparring. 

That being said, I'm a fairly strong guy and I don't hurt easily ... I would imagine an S.O. would realize that about me. ... Now, I have not been hit by a woman, but if I was dating someone who was not that strong physically and just went through something traumatic and she punched me in the chest as hard as she could out of grief knowing full well that I would not feel any pain - then I think I could forgive that (I'm not saying I condone violence, I'm just saying that I can forgive that). ... But if I was with an SO who was mad at me and in her anger she kicked me in the balls, I probably would end the relationship (I would "forgive", but I would end the relationship)


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

Even if I wanted to forgive him, I don't think I ever could.

C.


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## phony (Nov 28, 2012)

I was actually just thinking about this today.

Ugh I don't know how to answer this. I'd even have a problem if my boyfriend hit_ other _people. Physical violence isn't a rational way of dealing with things. I find it rather immature. Use your words.


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## devoid (Jan 3, 2011)

No, never. Violence in a relationship means you are past the point of broken trust. There are some things that redefine a relationship entirely, and physical violence is one of them.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

If someone is threatening me with physical harm, and I mean harm, I don't just mean slaps or whatever, I guess I would hit them... if I couldn't restrain them.



phony said:


> Physical violence isn't a rational way of dealing with things. I find it rather immature. Use your words.


 As for violence, when all other forms of negotiation have broken down, violence is legitimate, always legitimate in the defence of the weak against the strong and the just against the evil. In fact not only is it legitimate, it's a moral obligation.


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## Falling Leaves (Aug 18, 2011)

Abuse actually only very rarely begins with a slap... it's usually starts with months of whittling down the self-esteem and establishing yourself as the control in their lives; beatings are usually used to reinforce that message. Unsurprisingly, it's the former which causes the real long-term damage. 

Personally, I think it's a misdemeanor to see a one-off slap as = domestic abuse because it teaches people to look out for that, rather than the sick emotional tactics which make that behavior forgivable in the first place :/

Having said that, being myself in no way violent, I can think of no reason as to why someone could justify hitting me. I probably wouldn't forgive it because it shows both a lack of self-restraint and a lack of respect.

I think it's seen as less acceptable for a man to hit a woman due to archaic stereotypes our society still clings onto. Women are seen as both more emotional and physically weaker, therefore, I think there's a prevailing attitude of 'let her have her outburst, it's not like she can do any harm', all whilst the man is supposed to valiantly take it.


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

If women want equal rights then they should at least be prepared to not make a massive fuss when a man slaps them in the face. It goes both ways.

(not saying they should be completely passive, but that it's not fair to pull the "you shouldn't hit a woman" card when they'd readily hit a man)


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## phony (Nov 28, 2012)

Diphenhydramine said:


> As for violence, when all other forms of negotiation have broken down, violence is legitimate, always legitimate in the defence of the weak against the strong and the just against the evil. In fact not only is it legitimate, it's a moral obligation.


Maybe I should have been more specific, but I assumed everyone was going to be talking about romantic relationships. I was answering this:



puer_aeternus said:


> Take this scenario: a physically capable woman got into a HUGE argument with her equally physically capable man and out of rage, the man blows his cool and hits her. Then he immediately regrets it and apologizes.
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

phony said:


> Maybe I should have been more specific, but I assumed everyone was going to be talking about romantic relationships. I was answering this:


 It was just the way you said "dealing with things" made me think it was to do with everything. I agree that physical violence isn't the way to deal with things in a relationship.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

It's not just about how much muscle you have either.

Bruce lee had very little muscle.

Women just typically don't train to fight.

However, women that have given birth have a higher pain tolerance, right?

So technically, a woman that has given birth vs a typical guy, is an even fight.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

Mister Wolf said:


> It's not just about how much muscle you have either.
> 
> Bruce lee had very little muscle.
> 
> ...


Generally, just as you said, women are not trained to fight, so generally, they are at physical disavantage comparing to men.

Hmm I don't think that having suffered strong pain makes one less sensitive to it. Also, it doesn't give her more physical strength so that it's still not an even fight.

(not intending to say that it's more ok for women to hit men than men hit women, just commenting what you said)


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

AriesLilith said:


> Generally, just as you said, women are not trained to fight, so generally, they are at physical disavantage comparing to men.
> 
> Hmm I don't think that having suffered strong pain makes one less sensitive to it. Also, it doesn't give her more physical strength so that it's still not an even fight.
> 
> (not intending to say that it's more ok for women to hit men than men hit women, just commenting what you said)


Ironically, it doesn't take strength to hit a vital area and make it hurt.

And if someone has a high pain tolerance, and can take a hit, then they can almost be guaranteed at least one strike.

Fact is, men don't know how to fight at all, and men are freaked out about hitting girls because they think they'll be shot.

This gives girls the first strike usually, and since men don't know how to fight, most of them.

This whole myth that men can beat up women is ridiculous. All she needs is that one kick to the groin.

Smile, act like it's okay, then kick him in the nuts.

If someone knows anything, they know that a low kick drops the opponents hands, and opens it up to what?

The keys or nails you have in the eyes.

Seriously, this whole premise is wrong and off.

It's as fucked up as the whole self image or gender role stereotype shit in our country.

The myth of being helpless is a self fulfilling prophecy and isn't true.

For example, studies now show that women build muscle just as fast as men. There's no difference.

The only difference is testosterone, in that men might try harder in a workout for whatever reason, and therefore get more results, or bone size which supports more muscle.

That's just yet another myth.

It comes down to chivalry and myths, not about the weakness of women, which is a myth!


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## Mr. Meepers (May 31, 2012)

AriesLilith said:


> Generally, just as you said, women are not trained to fight, so generally, they are at physical disavantage comparing to men.
> 
> Hmm I don't think that having suffered strong pain makes one less sensitive to it. Also, it doesn't give her more physical strength so that it's still not an even fight.
> 
> (not intending to say that it's more ok for women to hit men than men hit women, just commenting what you said)


I think any physical confrontation would usually be scarier for the one more likely to get hurt and/or more likely to get hurt more .... That being said, anyone can hurt anyone else if they truly want to (they can use weapons), which is why people do need to have some control over themselves and why I would not want to be with someone who can easily lose her cool while having an intent to hurt me (that is not love to me).


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## Sovereign (Aug 19, 2011)

If you think it is more wrong for a man to hit a woman than it is for a woman to hit a man, you might be sexist. There's another vote for patriarchy, arbitrary social norms, and the subjugation of women. 

Just saiyan.

Both are literally equally reprehensible. Saying most women are physically weaker is about as relevant as stating that the grass is green. Not germane at all.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Why have you dated so many violent women? Are you aware that this isn't common, to have a succession of MULTIPLE girlfriends who pummel you? One maybe, two eh, but almost all relationships you've had?
> 
> I think you might consider going into therapy before entering another serious relationship.


Frankly, I have spent a lot of time considering it. I do have a lot of friends that say their wives or women take serious advantage of them physically, taking for granted the lack of a response - because that would just be unfair right? Most of them (the guys) tell me that I am in the danger zone even engaging in rough play back. 

I have been to therapy and therapists usually re-assure me that my responses (honestly portrayed) were appropriate if not amazingly measured.

I do crave a healthy relationship with a physical but non violent female but I despair of finding one if past history is any indication.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

Mister Wolf said:


> Ironically, it doesn't take strength to hit a vital area and make it hurt.
> 
> And if someone has a high pain tolerance, and can take a hit, then they can almost be guaranteed at least one strike.
> 
> ...


Of course that if you know where to hit or at least remember hitting there it would help, although just as you said earlier, generally women aren't trained, and if a fight breaks off, in case of both man and woman are not experienced at fights, the one who is more physically strong usually wins, unless the other can figure out something intelligently in the process, or maybe lucky enough to grab some tool nearby or hit at the right places.

Also, this pain thing, unless it's more trained, it doesn't seem to make sense that someone would become more desensitized to pain. I don't know if it's comparable, but I suffer from occasional belly pain, and whenever the pain is strong, I ca barely walk or move during the pain (it comes and goes). I have never really been desensitized.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

@puer_aeternus: (I'm not critizicing you) this is such a sensitive yet problematic matter that your initial post includes an apology/clarification. At this point of my life I find this unnecessary but yet unavoidable.

You could build a hypothetical scenario of 10 pages with one line of "and then he hit her in the face" and the whole 10 pages will be ignored while focusing on the solely fact of hitting her. I don't think too much of good can get out of this, in fact any non-rejection of hitting a woman or other hitting her will bring attacks and "supposed" words to any male expressing this same idea. "oh so you are in favor of..." and yet, this is also an act of aggression, sure, they don't get it. I find almost impossible to discuss this matter fluidly with women.

*Case 1.*
I was once on X dojo and there was this young girl. The sensei told us about the flaws of other "martial arts" being incompatible with real life attacks because in the real world there is violence and there is no honor, no respect. So you must work on realizing that anyone trying to kill you is the enemy, be it a kid, an old man/old woman or a young woman. It's difficult but in reality we are trained to think that way: giving up on face to face combat against women. Is immediately assumed that you can hurt her just because you are a guy dismissing the fact that hurting someone is independent of gender. This is a fact, still it will be attacked. Well at the end we had combat and I had to fight against the sensei (who was merciful with me) but my friend had to fight the young girl (16-17), well he said "I will go easy on you" and the girl kicked his ass. There you go, he was sore for several days after.

*Case 2.*
Some guy was in jail because he hit his woman in the face with a closed fist. Every attempt from him explaining his back of the head injury was unsuccessful. He was having dinner and she broke a bottle in his head, the attack continued and while bleeding and with some difficulty he managed to hit her.

And... the first thought is: he must have done something to deserve it... bummer.

-----It's a dead end------

One exGF that I was going to married asked me to hit her after a terrible betrayal from her, there you go, she asked for it, he attempted to take my hands and hit her own face. The relationship was over that same day. Sure women, I made up that story, sure, I'm sick, sure, pure fantasy...

I have some martial arts training and this woman used to provoke me into fights, I told her to please stop because her attacks could trigger instant reflexes from my training. He laughed at me, thought I was weak for saying it and that I didn't dare to touch her so I tried to scare her... She insisted saying nasty things (she is big, I'm bigger) there were 2 surprise attacks to my throat (strongly grabbing it) and I gave the final warning, "I just need one finger to bring you to your knees, please stop" (I shouldn't have included "please) and then one day was enough, I grabbed one finger and used Aikido (*non violent self defense*). Doubts women? research about Aikido first and then complain.


*I believe we should look on talking about violence between human beings, human-beings.* I respect women and I respect men. I'm a MAN and I find it stupid to go out provoking another guy, it's worse when it's a woman doing it.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

changos said:


> @_puer_aeternus_: (I'm not critizicing you) this is such a sensitive yet problematic matter that your initial post includes an apology/clarification. At this point of my life I find this unnecessary but yet unavoidable.
> 
> You could build a hypothetical scenario of 10 pages with one line of "and then he hit her in the face" and the whole 10 pages will be ignored while focusing on the solely fact of hitting her. I don't think too much of good can get out of this, in fact any non-rejection of hitting a woman or other hitting her will bring attacks and "supposed" words to any male expressing this same idea. "oh so you are in favor of..." and yet, this is also an act of aggression, sure, they don't get it. I find almost impossible to discuss this matter fluidly with women.
> 
> *I believe we should look on talking about violence between human beings, human-beings.* I respect women and I respect men. I'm a MAN and I find it stupid to go out provoking another guy, it's worse when it's a woman doing it.


I can't remember all the posts in this thread, but the women here seemed fair when viewing this matter, as in it being wrong the same for women to hit men. Just coz it was mentioned that women are generally physically weaker, I guess that no one used it as an excuse to assume the contrary.

I don't really know much about laws, although in that case 2 you wrote, I can't understand why the man was to blame when it was the woman who hit him with a bottle... Maybe coz there are some social generalizations favoring women, although I as a woman find it unfair for the man in that case. Just as you said, if someone attacks you, be it a kid or a woman, you have the right to defend yourself. The one who attacks should expect that the victim fights back.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

AriesLilith said:


> I can't remember all the posts in this thread, but the women here seemed fair when viewing this matter


Yes, true, just consider those words as needed considering what may come (and pretty sure will come on this thread), In my experience predicting this often reduces the problem, but it's very common. I hope it continues to be discussed as it is 




AriesLilith said:


> [...]Just coz it was mentioned that women are generally physically weaker, I guess that no one used it as an excuse to assume the contrary.


True. One more thing, being stronger or weaker had little to do with domestic violence where attacks can happen face to face or without warning (surprise attacks or from behind, like the real life example)





AriesLilith said:


> [...]I don't really know much about laws, although in that case 2 you wrote, I can't understand why the man was to blame when it was the woman who hit him with a bottle... Maybe coz there are some social generalizations favoring women, although I as a woman find it unfair for the man in that case. Just as you said, if someone attacks you, be it a kid or a woman, you have the right to defend yourself. The one who attacks should expect that the victim fights back.


True, again. 

In my country there are new laws protecting women and punishing domestic violence, some attorneys are against it because it attempts against equal rights but there are other countries supporting this and forcing my country to adopt such measures (they give money to support this) angry harry on man women myth has very good cases and explanations on youtube


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## Shahada (Apr 26, 2010)

Barring extreme circumstances (i.e. self-defense) I'm inclined to see any man who physically attacks a woman he's in a relationship with as an absolute scumbag. I could not see myself ever hitting my fiance out of anger but if God forbid that ever happened I wouldn't expect any forgiveness from her, I doubt I'd ever be able to forgive myself (again barring extreme circumstances--yes, if she is trying to kill you you can hit her back, are you happy?). I'm extremely suspicious of the motives of men who downplay beating women as not that bad, come up with excuses for it or dream up belabored fantasy scenarios where it could be justified, or who want to accuse you of being sexist for being particularly mortified by a practice that's been used for centuries to keep half the human population in a state of fear and subservience and is still used for exactly that purpose by millions of people the world over.


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

changos said:


> In my country there are new laws protecting women and punishing domestic violence, some attorneys are against it because it attempts against equal rights but there are other countries supporting this and forcing my country to adopt such measures (they give money to support this) angry harry on man women myth has very good cases and explanations on youtube


That makes me wonder how the laws are in my country (Portugal). I guess that with domestic violence against women being more frequent than against men, the society would tend to protect women, although there are many men who suffers from violence as well. Worse is, for men, the element of shame for asking for help is worse, since men are viewed as the stronger ones, making it harder for them.

Personally, I think that the laws should be more equal, men can become victims of violence as well. Also, in the more modern societies, there is more equality that women can be strong and independent as well.


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Totally agree. I have friends in the field of justice, laws, etc... and the stats don't reflect what's on the papers or newspapers.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

series0 said:


> Frankly, I have spent a lot of time considering it. I do have a lot of friends that say their wives or women take serious advantage of them physically, taking for granted the lack of a response - because that would just be unfair right? Most of them (the guys) tell me that I am in the danger zone even engaging in rough play back.
> 
> I have been to therapy and therapists usually re-assure me that my responses (honestly portrayed) were appropriate if not amazingly measured.
> 
> I do crave a healthy relationship with a physical but non violent female but I despair of finding one if past history is any indication.


Hmm I still think you need more therapy. You seem to think it's okay to end violence in sex, going by your original post about this, which says to me that you may even be aroused by it. When I was in a relationship where there was a small degree of violence (it was faint though, more verbal abuse and intimidation and control than violence) it did not end in sex.

I also have NEVER observed that heterosexual women in general frequently physically attack their male mates, especially not to the degree of actually HITTING. 

Rough play? I think you're perpetrating this honestly. I'm not "victim blaming" with you, but the fact that you even use terms like "rough play" and talk about incidents ending in sex leads me to believe that there was not real violence and intimidation, or if there was, you have some sort of issue you need to work on if you keep attracting women who actually really violently attack you.

Your responses might be good, but why do you keep picking women that hit you?


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

fourtines said:


> Hmm I still think you need more therapy. You seem to think it's okay to end violence in sex, going by your original post about this, which says to me that you may even be aroused by it. When I was in a relationship where there was a small degree of violence (it was faint though, more verbal abuse and intimidation and control than violence) it did not end in sex.
> 
> I also have NEVER observed that heterosexual women in general frequently physically attack their male mates, especially not to the degree of actually HITTING.
> 
> ...


Well, I suppose I try for perhaps selfish reasons to turn the energy of physical violence first into play, get her laughing instead of hitting, and then that leads to sex, or it has for me often enough. 

I am mortified by the fact that the women I attract do indeed seem prone to violence. I'm fairly sick of it. The scenarios vary but literally usually involve otherwise innocuous conversations at first, leading to arguments. I am a very good arguer. Or maybe not ... Still, its when I finally have delivered a great set of premises and gone full circle with my reasoning, I think showing them or hoping to convince them, that I generally get a sudden negative spike. Now some of the ladies in question were more or less constant with minor violence, but most just lose it suddenly and then have trouble getting a hold of it again. I am not insulting at all just not easily swayed, nor incapable of emotional reasoning. In fact I find it's usually that truth that stuns and annoys them emotionally, at least on the spot. No one likes being called out on their shit. 

I have it on my online dating profile - the expectation that two people can have a discussion or argument and each take full responsibility for their conduct physically and emotionally. 

On the last comment you made, I just don't know what to say. As far as I am aware all of the women in question were heterosexual. They hit, and a few of them were amazons, and the thrown stuff - let's not go there. And just for the record I have indeed had knives drawn on me. No guns - yet. You would think I was talking about trailer-trash here but - that isn't it. At least on the surface they were all respected middle class-ish types with only a few even coming from rough family backgrounds. The knife wielder had some family mental health issues but I only discovered that after the fact.

Being an enneagram 8 I am ready for conflict and so a lot of this that would freak other people out is no big deal to me. Maybe that's not a good a thing; but some of these ladies, they confided in me later that they felt safer with me, learned to trust themselves because I was able to handle it and not so judgmental. They didn't really realize I judged by didn't feel the need to wound already wounded people like themselves. It certainly wasn't ideal and I've had many many discussions aimed at accountability for bad behavior.

Maybe it is me because the sane, accountable type women just aren't flocking to me ....


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## AriesLilith (Jan 6, 2013)

@*series0*, I don't know how to explain well, but if you are attracting the same pattern again and again, then there's something in you that influences that, whether consciously or unconsciously.

The abusive people I heard about have self-esteem issues, maybe in some way similar to those who allow constant abuse in relationships, but they are more about needing the other to comply and they manipulate and drain the support they can receive from their partners.
Maybe the women you have met are just not good at anger management, or maybe they have some unconscious issues, and since you're the more stable kind, you might attract the kind that needs support and draining that from others.
On the other hand, for you to have accepted these women, it might be that you uncosnciously try to become a supporter? Maybe you somehow need to feel needed that way?
But then I don't really know, coz some people might have appeared very normal at first, so I can't fully understand how the dynamics of this kind of attraction works, when things appeared normal in the surface.
But I'm just wondering about the dynamic here.


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## The Proof (Aug 5, 2009)

I think it's ok to hit women when they're about to kill you with a fire axe


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## Eos_Machai (Feb 3, 2013)

puer_aeternus said:


> Touchy topic since I can never seem to bring this up and not get flack from every woman no matter what MBTI it seems.



I don't think physical abuse is worse than psychological abuse. And I don't think that a man hitting a woman is worse than the opposite (well, often it is because men are stronger etc. but the sex of the offender is _in it self_ not a factor). 

All kinds of abuse in a relationship are terrible and I don't think anyone should tolerate the least of it. But no, you don't have to leave your partner at the first abuse. And you can forgive him or her. But you should not do so if this person does not take the incident _very_ seriously and do all he/she can to see that it will not be repeated. 

If your partner have some issues that makes him/her unable to stop abusing than you must really leave this person and ask him/her to get professional help.


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## Nessie (Jan 6, 2012)

puer_aeternus said:


> Touchy topic since I can never seem to bring this up and not get flack from every woman no matter what MBTI it seems.
> 
> Anyway, let me elaborate before you line me up for a shot of your elephant gun.
> 
> ...


B) Understandable circumstances are situations of previous accord : doing sparing partner in gym., learning self-defence and making fun (like battle with bed equipment). For some people it could be also accorded s/m sex, but this is not my taste.
I wouldnt accept it out of rage. I dont hit people myself, when provoked, but not physicaly attacked.

As for elephant gun....er....we are here gentle tender ladies, dont worry:
in estp pictures thread one lady choice was Makarov pistol, in my homeland popular with girls tend to be Berettas Cheetah. We arent gun addicts, so there isnt endless choice in schops.


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## TriggerHappy923 (Dec 8, 2012)

puer_aeternus said:


> Take this scenario: a physically capable woman got into a HUGE argument with her equally physically capable man and out of rage, the man blows his cool and hits her. Then he immediately regrets it and apologizes.
> So ladies, if your male lover ever laid his hands on you, will you forgive him?
> A) Yes, because I can learn to forgive and still love him
> B) If the circumstances are understandable, I might
> C) HELL TO THE THE FUCK, NO


Well it what case is it okay to hit... any one? If it's a case were it doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, I don't care about the law, this person deserves to be punched... then that's you. What can I saw the persona was probably an idiot, but man or woman, if you are the first one to blow the punch... legally it's your fault.

For me personally, I'm between B and C. It depends on the person and the circumstance. If I was outright physically abusing a man/my lover, the man has a right to defend himself. Beating me to a pulp... well that's just asking for his own demise (aka: Consummate my Plan B). If it's just a hit, even a bruise for weeks on end worthy bruise... then again, it depends on the circumstance... but it could be that I'm an idiot and deep deep down I'm just setting myself up for abuse. The example you gave is no reason to hit someone... any one, that's just pathetic... but without more specificity, that's all I can give you.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

AriesLilith said:


> @*series0*, I don't know how to explain well, but if you are attracting the same pattern again and again, then there's something in you that influences that, whether consciously or unconsciously.
> 
> The abusive people I heard about have self-esteem issues, maybe in some way similar to those who allow constant abuse in relationships, but they are more about needing the other to comply and they manipulate and drain the support they can receive from their partners.
> Maybe the women you have met are just not good at anger management, or maybe they have some unconscious issues, and since you're the more stable kind, you might attract the kind that needs support and draining that from others.
> ...


I think you are right about me somehow attracting these abusive women and the only thing I can say to suggest why is that I am not very much of a chaser. Since the lady usually is the chooser and the guy more of a demonstrator, I mostly peacock rather than chase, at least initially. It is definitely true that I am supportive and understanding beyond what most normal guys accept. I enjoy challenging my partner, and the emotional distance of enneagram type 4w3 INFJ and ENFJ women is a good match for me or at least often pulls me in. I have only had very few relationships that were with other types. My energy and emotional needs (to some extent) are too much for many other types to handle (at least so far - and that's only my guess based on limited feedback). I do admit I love to be needed but I am MUCH more about being admired than needed.

I did get to a point in my life several years ago where I was just resigned to be alone. I worked on my inner world and haven't begun dating again until recently. So far no pattern, new or old, has emerged.


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## Angelus (Apr 9, 2012)

@*puer_aeternus *

(Okay so I mighta arrived here because I checked your other sex and relationships threads after the dirty talk one.)

For some reason, in both relationships I've had, there's been hitting and other kinda physical 'abuse'. But I wouldn't really call it abuse. Personally it doesn't bother me. I guess it's caus I'm a masochist.

I just kinda expect it to happen every once in a while, even if it's because "I need to be punished" or because the other person just needs to let out steam. I'm never mad about it for longer than a minute or two if it really hurts. Most times I just suck it up though.

Last time was today when I got off the couch to make myself a fast dinner during a commercial break. My boyfriend told me to make dinner after the movie was over. I insisted to go already so he grabbed me to keep me on the couch playfully. It's happened before and he has a habit of teasing me and keeping me on the couch forcefully until the commercial break is over and I can't leave anymore. So I knew it was going to happen this time again so I pinched his hand when I was able to. This made him let go but since he's such a proud bastard he immidiately wen't "bitch" and kicked me when I was getting up. It hit me in the stomach pretty badly and I almost threw up so I had a 10 second cry caus it really hurt. He was very apologetic because he didn't realize he kicked me so hard. But I was over it in a minute and then I made dinner for us lol.

For some reason those kinda things just don't really affect me. It happens quite often.. But really...It doesn't bother me at all strangely. o.o

I'm starting to feel sick and unhealthy lol. I don't know what's wrong with me! Maybe it also has to do with loving martial arts *shrug*. 

Oh and also, before anyone condems my boyfriends, I need to say that I'm the one who encouraged them. I know that if I told my boyfriend that I don't want him to ever do it again, I know he wouldn't. It's just something I allow because.. Well, I'm a masochist.


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## Nekomata (May 26, 2012)

I would forgive him eventually, though I tend to give him shit a lot beforehand, and I always end up mentioning it... *holds grudges* yeah, I still have scars where he did stuff, and where he bit me on the face/arm etc. =_= it's never okay though... the other person could phone the police and... well, the police tend to take violence such as that very seriously x__x if you stay with the other person and they do it constantly though, resentment and hatred starts to build up until you feel like... *stabbity stab*

...yeah, ignore this, this topic of conversation tends to make me angry lol. Violence towards women or men isn't right though, unless they did something to really deserve it (like kill your dog or push you down a fleet of stairs or something).


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## Playful Proxy (Feb 6, 2012)

Of course it is not unforgivable. In terms of self-defense, men have just as much right to defend themselves against a woman as they would against another man. The man may be physically superior, but the woman should have thought about that before deciding to start the fight. I will not hold back if my life is on the line and if I have to break some bones or dislocate a jawbone in the process, so be it. 

I can't really understand the part of saying your SO makes you so angry you hit her, if it gets to that point, I'm not entirely sure you two should be together. I tend to drop people who infuriate me that much faster than a Jew goes after a nickel. The purpose of a SO is someone who you trust and feel comfortable with. Wanting to slit their throat does not qualify as such.


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Women typically are physically weaker than men.


I think that's a garbage argument. 

If I'm physically weaker than another man, and I slap them round the face and they knock me out I think they are fully justified in what they did. I shouldn't have assaulted them. 

It's socially unacceptable to hit women, that's why often you'll see women in TV and film slapping (assaulting) men and it's ignored, whereas if a man does it it's the 'center' of the scene. To treat women differently for assaulting people is sexism.

Like comedian Bill Burr has said, if it were socially unacceptable to hit me, do you have any idea how much of an asshole I'd be?

(Fast forward to 4:20)


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I think it's bullshit that women are able to (and often do) joke around or makes threats about hitting a man 'down there' for little to no reason at all, openly and without worry, while the very thought of a man using force to defend himself against a woman is enough to spark a heated debate on ethics.


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## rosegeranium (Apr 1, 2013)

C.

Why? Because such behavior will *not* stop. I would get the hell out of there and, if he damaged my body enough to create a large bruise, I would call the cops on him. You do not hit anyone out of anger, ever. People like this need to learn, they will just keep doing it over and over an over to different people. I've even told men, "If you ever hit me out of anger, I will make sure you end up in jail. Your life will never be the same." 

Similarly, I do not think a man should *ever *let a woman hit him. Should he hit back? If he is in danger, which is possible. But usually men that hit back are not in danger, they are weak like the women hitting them. I say stear clear of such people or suffer the consequences. Easier said than done, I am sure.


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## Murky Muse (Mar 19, 2010)

I disagree with any violence in a relationship. It doesn't matter who starts it. 

And if the woman starts it, the man has every right to defend himself. That's the only condition where I'd be okay with a man hitting a woman (and vice versa, a woman should never hit/slap/physically attack a man unless it's self defense).


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## Elov (Mar 18, 2012)

I would have to say B. It would all depend on the circumstances of the situation. If him hitting me really was a one time thing, then I'd be able to forgive him. But if it ever occured multiple times, I would leave. I will not stay in an abusive relationship, no matter how much I love(d) him.


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

I'd go with C. . . although I could understand if someone says B.

However, I'd answer the same if it was about hitting another man.


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

Wow this topic still lives? Suffice to say that violence towards woman in whatever shape or form will always generate buzz. People feel strongly for it. Hmm... 

I'll come back to read some of your replies but that's a lot. 

Carry on


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## EightySixOneMe (Jan 1, 2011)

Well, I'd never hit a girl. EVER. I don't even care what would/could/did happen, I'm not assaulting a female. If I was answering this question for a girl, it would be C... C for myself too.

I'd never hit a guy, that's still assault. Would I hit a male if we agreed to fight? Well yeah, because we agreed to a fight and it wouldn't be assault. Would I agree to a fight or propose a fight? Probably not, there's no point. 

If a male or female ever sucker punched(assaulted) me... forgiving them would never happen. I guess at that point they're just stupid/illogical in my eyes and it will never change...you done fucked up and traveled into 110% unforgivable land if you went that far. I'd probably think even less of a person if they attempted to apologize after a stunt like that.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

I don't believe "women are physically weaker" should be a deterrent. If a kid is trying to kill me with a knife I'm going to damn well try to kill him first. Better him than me. Physically weaker doesn't factor into it.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

I've only hit a girl once in the third grade, but only because she was physically larger, cornered me, and had been acting aggressive towards me for weeks, so one day I just let loose. It wasn't a _hard_ hit, but she made sure to soak up any sympathy offered. There were no problems after that.


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## Zanimus (Aug 25, 2011)

This seems to be one of those threads that never really go away. When one dies, someone usually posts the same question and it continues all over again.

Personally, I find the idea of women being completely exempt from personal accountability laughable.


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

Zanimus said:


> Personally, I find the idea of women being completely exempt from personal accountability laughable.


Personally I find it offensive. The only other class of people we treat like this are _children. _That's why juvies serve a couple of years where an adult might get a death sentence. That's because they're not as mentally developed. I find that to say a woman should be exempt from accountability is to say a woman is mentally equivalent of a minor.


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## Death Persuades (Feb 17, 2012)

I will defend myself against any threat.


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

lex talionis.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Diphenhydramine said:


> lex talionis.


Rattan?


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## Diphenhydramine (Apr 9, 2010)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Rattan?


 No, haha - I mean, that I give back what I get in proportion.


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## benoticed (Nov 14, 2012)

If i was a man i would hit these women...









but im a woman, also the least violent person and i would still hit these women :dry:


* *




Violence is not the answer though.


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## Pyromaniac (Apr 2, 2013)

Why does everyone bandy around the pretext that women are weaker and therefore are not able to pose a physical threat? So what if you find a particularly weak man or a particularly strong woman? Why can't you go with the actual principle instead of an indicative that only alludes to it? There are exceptions to rules, and by differentiating and assigning special treatment to a rule is not comprehensive of the exceptions.

The only biological factor I'd say would influence my reaction to physical assault, would be age and bodily strength, both of which would have to be extreme to hold ground i.e being 10 or being a disabled cripple. Otherwise, when you're attacked, you are well within your rights to defend yourself, though there is a fine line between defense and retaliation (one I myself must confess to be guilty of crossing at times).

I don't condone initial violence under any circumstance but that where a preemptive attack is necessary in all probabilities. But if I am assaulted, I will not adhere to the social ethic that you may not even defend yourself against women.



Diligent Procrastinator said:


> I will defend myself against any threat.


Here we go. A simple but binary and universally binding moral. Why do we have to overcomplicate things with mass-generalizations, and not simply stick to the principle behind them?


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## strangestdude (Dec 8, 2011)

I'll leave this here...


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## twoofthree (Aug 6, 2011)

Persephone said:


> Personally I find it offensive. The only other class of people we treat like this are _children. _That's why juvies serve a couple of years where an adult might get a death sentence. That's because they're not as mentally developed. I find that to say a woman should be exempt from accountability is to say a woman is mentally equivalent of a minor.


What has hitting someone to do with accountability?


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## Persephone (Nov 14, 2009)

twoofthree said:


> What has hitting someone to do with accountability?


I was replying to someone else. Mind the context.


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

strangestdude said:


> I'll leave this here...


Baiting someone? 

I won't lie though. I snickered. If that makes me evil then so be it lol


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## Barcelonic (Jan 5, 2013)

ilphithra said:


> this isn't the topic at hand in this thread.


Lol exactly. Your rant about child protection was totally off-topic.

And as to the rest, I did say quite clearly I was speaking in a more esoteric sense. I have little time for practicalities.

If you can put aside your unabashed rage for just one second you might be interested to know just how little you _actually_ know about my country.

I'm not going to bother sourcing anything tho or commenting further here. If you can get on-topic and not allow your maternal craziness to envelop your thinking, then I don't know what I can say to such a person. And btw I am not stupid enough to have at any point thought I could 'change your views' on anything.

Lunatic!


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## ilphithra (Jun 22, 2010)

Barcelonic said:


> Lol exactly. Your rant about child protection was totally off-topic.


You spoke about violence against women or children... I took from there...



Barcelonic said:


> And as to the rest, I did say quite clearly I was speaking in a more esoteric sense. I have little time for practicalities.
> 
> If you can put aside your unabashed rage for just one second you might be interested to know just how little you _actually_ know about my country.
> 
> ...


Name calling and personal attacks to boot... so mature.


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## Barcelonic (Jan 5, 2013)

ilphithra said:


> *You spoke about violence against women or children... I took from there...*
> 
> ______________________________________________
> 
> *Name calling and personal attacks to boot... so mature*.





ilphithra said:


> About my sarcasm:
> 
> And extremely so... that will never change... some like it, some don't... that's life.
> 
> Anyway...



Lol, ye like you're in a position to talk to be about maturity.

I've been conversing; you've been raging. And let us see exactly what you were raving over....




Barcelonic said:


> _I can't imagine there'd be too many people who'd agree with me here, but if anyone thinks domestic violence against men, women or children is 'occasionally useful' they're simply not smart enough to think of a better way of dealing with things_


You may or may not notice I chose my words carefully. It's something I do and people deride me for it because I sound unnecessarily 'machine-like' but this way I tend to (usually) get my point across as best I can.

I mentioned children once - just once - and you derailed the thread ENTIRELY onto a rant over how to discipline one's children!?! 

And in case you didn't notice my carefully-chosen words, there are many possible ways you could have chosen to take my statement:

1) He is right; I cannot agree

2) He is wrong; few people would agree

3) He is right but his opinion is wrong. Gladly he _did_ express this as mere opinion on his part

4) His opinion is wrong! Damn him to Hell! I love my kids and violence as discipline can work! He's speaking on behalf of his whole country! What is wrong with that place?!? How dare he include children in this? It's a totally different issue and instead of creating a thread about it I'm going to be a sarcastic troll and proudly admit my sarcasm in all its, ahem, 'glory'!! 

Seriously either of the first 3 above would have been good - the first two particularly. Number 4 was an emotional spill. If you want me to return to maturity and address your points then just end the harassment and make one...

______________________________________________________________



ilphithra said:


> You spoke about violence against women or children... I took from there...


Yes this is all on me :dry:


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

I believe in gender equality. 

Gender plays no part whatsoever in my decision to hit someone.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

if you want to act like a man, expect to be treated like one...


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## ilphithra (Jun 22, 2010)

Barcelonic said:


> bla bla bla


You don't know how I post or you would have known I'm not raging.
I'm sarcastic and 100x more so in real life. I don't care if you like it or not.
I didn't grow up being told to make what I say pretty as to cater to thin skins. 
I'm done with you.

/waves


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## Barcelonic (Jan 5, 2013)

ilphithra said:


> You don't know how I post or you would have known I'm not raging.
> I'm sarcastic and 100x more so in real life. I don't care if you like it or not.
> I didn't grow up being told to make what I say pretty as to cater to thin skins.
> I'm done with you.
> ...


.... and with that the mature black pot leaves the room


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## ilphithra (Jun 22, 2010)

Barcelonic said:


> .... and with that the mature black pot leaves the room


Know what? Tired of your constant personal attacks... you shall receive the dues of your labor soon.

/ignore


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

A guy I knew pulled my hair when I was driving. I pushed him out of the moving vehicle into a ditch. He never lifted a hand to me again. 

Another pushed me against an arcade game in a bar, and I gave him a swift knee the groin and he doubled over. 

And so on. 

I come from a place where there are lots of drunk ********, and it -does- happen. I will react with much more force than necessary if a guy dares to lay a hand on me though. 

I don't think that physical violence is necessarily correct, though I may joke about it from time to time. In any civilized society, we learn that there are better ways to handle things than to physically harm another person. But sure, it happens.. i'll be damned if I'll take it from some schmuck though.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Promethea said:


> A guy I knew pulled my hair when I was driving. I pushed him out of the moving vehicle into a ditch. He never lifted a hand to me again.
> 
> Another pushed me against an arcade game in a bar, and I gave him a swift knee the groin and he doubled over.
> 
> ...


Too many humans are just cavemen in disguise. Drinking booze doesn't improve the situation. 

By and large, humanity is far less advanced and enlightened than we like to believe so sometimes you need to knee a dude in the nuts. 

Call it type 8 cynicism. . .


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## WisePhoneX (May 7, 2013)

Is it okay to ever hit anyone? Same question.


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## PurpleApple (Mar 11, 2013)

Hitting people in general is wrong.


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## WisePhoneX (May 7, 2013)

Only in self defense or defense of others... Man or Woman, no difference. ISTJ


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

WisePhoneX said:


> Only in self defense or defense of others... Man or Woman, no difference. ISTJ


Easier said than done. While many in this thread agree that hitting anyone is wrong, and that if a woman attacks a man, he should have the right to defend himself, I think some degree of influence of this double standard is always going to exist for humans, unfortunately. At least, so long that there are two sexes: male and female.


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## feefafo (Jul 20, 2010)

My boyfriend is a stick-thin weakling. I could hurt him more than he could hurt me. Hell, I could probably lift him over my head if I tried. If he were to attempt to lay his hands on me, then BOOM, MOTHERFUCKING *BODYSLAM*. Or, y'know, just a swift punch in the gut, followed by a conversation about _what the fuck _he thinks he's doing.

Hitting anyone is stupid and unnecessary. *Abusing* someone you have more power than is seriously inexcusable, and I think that's the real problem people are talking about when they say "hitting women". The idea of a partner physically abusing me is difficult to imagine because of the type of guy I'm currently involved with and my own mental/physical strength. I could deal with a partner losing his temper - I don't believe one physical outburst against someone who can defend themselves makes you an abuser. Using your power (physical or psychological) to control, dominate, intimidate, manipulate, etc., in my opinion, is what makes you an abuser.


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## HighClassSavage (Nov 29, 2012)

If a woman were to come at me swinging, I would have absolutely no problem decking her in the face. I don't really discriminate between male or female. Thankfully I can just subdue most women anyways so I wouldn't have to resort to hitting them but if they pissed me off enough, I wouldn't regret harming them. Of course I'm only speaking about self-defense though. Initiating violence against a woman is wrong but not because she's a woman, it's just wrong in general.


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## Mysteryman (Apr 21, 2012)

I know I've never hit a woman. If I did, I don't think I'd want her to forgive me. If they get in my way, I'll just lift them and put them down away from the door. They hit me, my instinct is to subdue them by wrestling them to the ground. Then, say "Get the fuck out. Don't bother coming back."


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Promethea said:


> I come from a place where there are lots of drunk ********, and it -does- happen. I will react with much more force than necessary if a guy dares to lay a hand on me though...


I would want to react definitively in situations like that too. If something is going to get physical, IOW, and so I'm at a disadvantage anyway, it only makes sense to make the first response count (either to dissuade someone from going further or disable them so that they can't). There are just some lines that you can't let people think are okay to cross.



> I don't think that physical violence is necessarily correct, though I may joke about it from time to time. In any civilized society, we learn that there are better ways to handle things than to physically harm another person. But sure, it happens...


I don't prefer it either, I just see it as a disappointing reality.


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## Hal Jordan Prime (Dec 13, 2012)

Interesting answers. I'm happy to see a lot of the people here, especially the women being more open-minded about the issue being VIOLENCE in general as opposed to just violence against women. 

I guess the intellect trumps the double standard 

Before you couldn't even bring up topics about women without someone dumping the double standard vat of acid on you


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## changos (Nov 21, 2011)

Just found this


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## TwistedMuses (May 20, 2013)

Well, sometimes I think I SHOULD hit myself for doing/telling stupid and unnecessary things for certain close people. I do this mostly with a newspaper. My boyfriend only used to hit me on my buttocks like a child when I annoyed him/did something bad. And yes, some women just ask themselves to be hit, there are plenty of certain examples in my town. That's just my opinion.


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## Sun Lips (Jan 28, 2013)

I get the whole age-old thing about women being physically inferior and blah blah, so therefore a man should never hit a woman no matter what she does. And I'm not going to pretend it has NO merit at all. Whether or not some people want to admit it, your average man is stronger than your average woman. If a woman slaps a man across the face, and then he slaps her back, he's likely to do a lot more damage. Then of course, there's all this stigma about how a "real man" treats a woman. It's all very garbled up.

That said: Unforgivable no matter what? Disagree completely. If a woman attacks a man, he has every right to defend himself. And hey, wow, if a man attacks a woman, she has every right to defend herself, too!

I think the idea that one should never hit a woman comes from misconceptions about domestic abuse, i.e, the abused female is cowering in a corner doing her best to harm no one while her awful husband senselessly beats her and she is defenseless. Yes, this does happen, and my heart goes out to those women. But domestic violence against men is something people just love to ignore.

So, along with many posts before me, I'll just say that I condemn violence in all situations instead of specifically condemning violence against women. A man should not hit a woman for any reason. But a woman should not hit a man for any reason, either. It happens anyway, of course. But it is not any _more_ unforgivable when a man abuses a woman than it is when a woman abuses a man.


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