# My rant on ENTJ VS ESTJ, why ESTJs are better leaders, and what an ENTJ is



## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

So I'm an ENTJ. Tested every time in Myers Briggs and Socionics, and have been accustomed to my ENTJness in way. I've been on this forum for awhile and been reading a lot of posts about ENTJs, especially in comparison to ESTJs, and I feel there's a lot of misconceptions especially about ENTJs and a lot of people mistyped.

First I'd like to say what spurred me to write this is that I recently hung out with one of my ESTJ friends. If I were to go by our fnctions, our Te made hanging out and we got a long fine...until we started talking about more serious stuff. People, values etc, and he and I started talking and I realized, how extremely different we were. We were both expressing our ideas through Te, but the Ni/Se combo was so different from the Si/Ne combo.

Think about it this way, if you guys played a video game and used a gun, Te is the gun. But Ni VS Si is the ammo. Same firing mechanism, but your lightning ammo that electrocutes the enemy ends up having a way different effect than your ice ammo that freezes.

And that's where I want to expound on. Ni isn't just simply about thinking in the future, and Si isn't thinking about the past. Your auxiliary function works with all other functions and affects a person as a whole. 

As an ENTJ, here's how I am, and what I honestly think are other ENTJs. First of all I want to put out this link as I think this is a very accurate description of an ENTJ: Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer)

And as an ENTJ, I want to first say I'm a weirdo, but I'm a focused and goal driven weirdo. I love being a comedian, I'm usually relaxed because my work and responsibilities are done. I do derive confidence from having my work done, but I don't domineer or try to be a leader. Honestly most people don't look to me as a leader, but I know where my expertise is, and I can lead in that area if I feel I have to. But for me goals are a very personal thing. I do it because those are my dreams, and ambitions, and only will lead or try to push something if it coincides. And I guess to further expound, what I mean by Ni affecting a person as a whole is that ENTJs I know LOVE being new and not cookie cutter. They love being unique/out there, and they love it when their eccentricities and who they are a person is really defined(and for many of them it's by their goals). This makes ENTJs very optimistic people, who like partying, being class clowns, who love self improvement such as working out or studying, and feel they can genuinely conquer or do anything that they desire.

An ESTJ is different in the fact that they're traditional. They are much more of the achievers in Myers Briggs. They care a lot more about social status. But this honestly makes them better leaders in an everyday setting. For them a lot more is on the line than their personal goals, and that's also everyone else opinion of them and how well they can do it. It contrast ENTJs really don't care about that image that much. ESTJs want to lead, they want to be known, and out of all the types take the most objective approach when leading. This is a good and bad thing, as objectivity is great for nearly all work settings, and their more conservative practical approach makes them in tune with how things work, but they also have a tendency to be more domineering and aggressive. 

I know it's socionics again, but this really describes the difference between an ENTJ and ESTJ: Comparative relations between psychological ("personality") types

They're comparative functions and while similar on the surface are very different deep down. Similar to how you would compare and contrast and ENTP with an ENFP.

And on final note, if you guys want to spot an ENTJ VS ESTJ. Look for their clothing. ENTJs have a tendency to wear more outlandish stuff, I guess like me in this pic: http://i.imgur.com/UNrN8qL.jpg

I used to be an Air Force ROTC, when I still wanted to be a fighter pilot, and one of my best friends was an ENTJ like me. We liked being weird and we were obviously different from most of our win, and we actually got tuxedo t shirts together, and when our wing had "unofficial parties" you could tell the ESTJs as they were were in traditional outwear of button ups or quarter zips and jeans. We on the other hand were wearing something like this: http://i.imgur.com/4OYIMza.jpg

So I guess that's just my final thoughts on the whole ENTJ VS ESTJ thing. Thanks for reading guys!


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## Mutant Hive Queen (Oct 29, 2013)

Hmmmmm...so I'm going to go ahead and see if I understand this correctly...

ENTJs are sort of inclined to be efficient and do "what works", for their own personal enjoyment.

ESTJs, meanwhile, seek efficiency and "doing what works" in matching up to some external standard. 

Would that be about right?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Chained Divinity said:


> Hmmmmm...so I'm going to go ahead and see if I understand this correctly...
> 
> ENTJs are sort of inclined to be efficient and do "what works", for their own personal enjoyment.
> 
> ...


A bit yeah. I guess to best put in perspective. The ESTJ is the executive. The ENTJ is the pioneer/entrepreneur


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

I'd use ENTJ and ESTJs as leaders but for different scenarios and different goals, all else being equal.

They have different strengths, but depending on the nature of the leadership task one out of the two may be too inadequate.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

I agree, but I think ESTJs in general are much better/equipped for majority of leading situations. You need to know facts and details and be concrete in most things in the real world, and introverted sensing goes a long way with that. However if it's something that is visionary an ENTJ is much more equipped to handle that, but the ENTJs I see, are too uninterested/too busy in a sea of thoughts to care about most leadership type roles.


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## shakti (Oct 10, 2012)

@Nightmaker81 - I like your explanation and your style...I always imagine ENTJs looking something like that 

Hahahah and I can totally relate to being a "focused and goal driven weirdo" :-D


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## Thomas60 (Aug 7, 2011)

I see the ESTJ's as being responsibility driven and to delegate and enforce it. Guardians in the sense they are societies and businesses pillars. As intellectuals, the ENTJ I see as driven to apply the creative process to identify new needs and meet them. The ENTP may be about new ideas then see who's needs they can meet.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

shakti said:


> @_Nightmaker81_ - I like your explanation and your style...I always imagine ENTJs looking something like that
> 
> Hahahah and I can totally relate to being a "focused and goal driven weirdo" :-D


Haha thank you! Glad someone feels me on that!


Thomas60 said:


> I see the ESTJ's as being responsibility driven and to delegate and enforce it. Guardians in the sense they are societies and businesses pillars. As intellectuals, the ENTJ I see as driven to apply the creative process to identify new needs and meet them. The ENTP may be about new ideas then see who's needs they can meet.


I agree with that. I believe ENTJs and ENTPs are both very visionary, but in different ways. ENTJs vision is very planned out and they have an idea how and what to get. They're like a speeding bullet train when they know they want something, and is very much like a pioneer.

An ENTP is much more like an inventor. Their vision comes from Ne, and producing more ideas. Their ideas may not be completely planned, but when one idea really clicks with them, they take off.

I believe ENTJ and ENTP both have this desire to be unique and different, and stand out from the crowd in their own special way.


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

bump


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Any thoughts on what I feel an ENTJ is?


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## redneck15 (Mar 21, 2011)

Nightmaker81 said:


> Any thoughts on what I feel an ENTJ is?


I know an executive of a company who I think is an ENTJ. Also the executive's son I think is an ENTJ. To me, when compared to the ESTJs I know, the ENTJ is like a king standing next to his trusted general, the ESTJ. There is something almost ESTPish, except more intellectual and less devil-may-care, about the ENTJ. Something possibly a little aristocratic, or 'I have leeway because I'm me' in the ENTJ attitude...

This sounds funny, but as I say, I think the ENTJ is naturally dominant over the ESTJ, all things being equal. However, the ESTJ is more solid and 'field-commander'-like. They seem like the least imaginative of all types; I think Sam in LOTR might be either ESTJ or ISTJ. On the other hand, their great talents for 'keeping on' like a train, and their realism more than make up for a lack of imagination in the game of life.


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## Pendit76 (Jul 31, 2013)

I think you really sell ENTJ leadership sort though. I pick and choose where I lead, which is a few shades different than what you are claiming is atypical ENTJ behavior. There's a couple of ships that can crash and sink that I don't care about. There's also some ships that have precious cargo that I want to save. The latter ships I will commandeer. If I see someone who can not plan or organize events, I may step in and help out--if it's in my best interest to do so. ENTJs are pragmatists. 

I've let people embarrass themselves in situations where I could have easily lead them out from the black. It's all about my values. I've also saved people and programs from drowning. When I'm playing on a team, I'll take lead usually because I like to win, and I can easily influence the game with my inspired play. I serve no ruler except myself. I don't give a shit about tradition or social standards.

You are correct on the ENTJ's lack of detail, however. I do not care too much for details, but when I do, it takes way longer than it would for a Si type--and often causes me to over manage, which I try to avoid. I'm good with numbers, but my short-term memory is relatively poor, and my physical awareness is more general than acute and precise. I'll often give people a general idea of what to do, and let them make the ultimate sink-or-swim decision. I'll tell you we have to be at the Lecture Hall by 4. I just won't tell you exactly how to get there. 



> 'I have leeway because I'm me


Aptly describes me. I know what I'm doing--or else I wouldn't be doing it.


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## Sixty Nein (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't know, I think that an actual Te dominant would just find both of them relate able? I'm fairly certain that I'm of the Ni type, mostly because of the fact that I'm not particularly really all that particularly focused on where exactly the flow of intuition will land and effect the environment rather than I am turning inward and then subscribing personal content with it. Then again I am of the personal belief that if you are an extrovert then all of your functions that you reject from the consciousness would be of the opposite effect, and I honestly can't say that I'm particularly well integrated with Intuition or Sensing. I have issues with both. Also I'm a lazy, no good slacker who has trouble giving a shit about anything. I have only recently started to get a drive into me, and even that is sort of directionless. Really all a Te dom really means is that you are objective in your thinking, there are various "checkpoints" that you have to fulfill and these all require you to just sort of fulfill them whenever you are saving yourself. In that case, the only thing that saves me is my pragmatic/mathmatical thinking. What the current facts are, what could be is all subservient to the hero that saves me from trouble. It is what I rely to get by on life, to meet the world and play it's game by subscribing to all of the theories and yet also being utterly heretical to it whenever that is necessary. It is using the measuring stick that others give you, and you use it for your own ends. Tho who the fuck knows? I may not even be a Te dominant.

Outside of that, all of what you are saying about yourself is silly shit that could even apply to a Si dominant because nothing there seems to be particularly Te-ish in that mentality. Why exactly would perception (Ni in this case) really give a shit about being unique? Wouldn't this mostly be a form of feeling?


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## Nightmaker81 (Aug 17, 2013)

Reality Hazer said:


> I don't know, I think that an actual Te dominant would just find both of them relate able? I'm fairly certain that I'm of the Ni type, mostly because of the fact that I'm not particularly really all that particularly focused on where exactly the flow of intuition will land and effect the environment rather than I am turning inward and then subscribing personal content with it. Then again I am of the personal belief that if you are an extrovert then all of your functions that you reject from the consciousness would be of the opposite effect, and I honestly can't say that I'm particularly well integrated with Intuition or Sensing. I have issues with both. Also I'm a lazy, no good slacker who has trouble giving a shit about anything. I have only recently started to get a drive into me, and even that is sort of directionless. Really all a Te dom really means is that you are objective in your thinking, there are various "checkpoints" that you have to fulfill and these all require you to just sort of fulfill them whenever you are saving yourself. In that case, the only thing that saves me is my pragmatic/mathmatical thinking. What the current facts are, what could be is all subservient to the hero that saves me from trouble. It is what I rely to get by on life, to meet the world and play it's game by subscribing to all of the theories and yet also being utterly heretical to it whenever that is necessary. It is using the measuring stick that others give you, and you use it for your own ends. Tho who the fuck knows? I may not even be a Te dominant.
> 
> Outside of that, all of what you are saying about yourself is silly shit that could even apply to a Si dominant because nothing there seems to be particularly Te-ish in that mentality. Why exactly would perception (Ni in this case) really give a shit about being unique? Wouldn't this mostly be a form of feeling?


This was something I have against the whole Myers Briggs system. An ENTJ isn't some bullet train going forward with Te only. I always thought that was a ridiculous notion. If you go on the Myers Briggs system and see what an ENTP is, and their strengths one of them is being an individual and unique: ENTP strengths and weaknesses | 16 Personality Types

And their logical thinkers. Just because ENTJs are also logical, doesn't mean they're not human. They have desires too and emotions. For the ENTJs I know, we're good at what we do. We can think, assess and organize with Te. But Ni is how we perceive information, but it works in tangent with all the ENTJ functions.

So for me, I see an ENTP being unique and wanting to stand out, but isn't that also a feeler function? No I don't think so. I think you can be logical and have a desire to be different. I think intuitives thinkers in general do have this need to be seen as different and not follow norms. And I think that's just functions coming in with human desires. When an ENTJ is a weirdo off the wall person, but at the same time can organize and do well in most situations, I feel it builds them to be this visionary/pioneer type.

But here's another link that I think appropiates of an ENTJ/LIE could be divided:
Socionics type and subtype descriptions - by Valentina Meged

I feel I do lean much more to the strategist. A lot of ENTJs are much more of the serious reformer, but with the ENTJs I have met in Air Force ROTC, aerospace engineering, and astrophysics, I can say we do have a desire to be unique and be visionary, to be something new.


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## Valargrim (Jul 20, 2014)

Nightmaker81 said:


> A bit yeah. I guess to best put in perspective. The ESTJ is the executive. The ENTJ is the pioneer/entrepreneur


I disagree. We are more fitting to an executive role. That is why CEOs and CTOs that are ENTJs are much more efficient at moving things forward in large corporations. Especially, in technology. ESTJs are great if you don't want to "rock the boat." Which is perfect in government or non-profit organization. My business unit has 5 ENTJs in the heart of R&D. We rock the boat quite often. To the ESTJs dismay. Our corporate slogan is the wild cowboys. If you want to see an interesting combination add in "Master Mind" INTJs as advisers. They really know how to create efficiency and can lead perfectly well in their own right. I often just look around and notice that there are people following me on the mission.

A joke from a fellow ENTJ, "We are the Gods of Life. We show people how to truly live. To be completely free."


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