# MBTI confuses the eff out of me. ENFP/ENTP



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I have a difficult time with MBTI and one of the key issues is with emotion/logic. I am an extremely emotional person. However, I am very internal about my feelings, and I have the ability to maintain a cool facade and to look at situations logically. It's a constant feeling of frustration when I can't reconcile my emotions with what I know to be true. It's like knowing what's real versus feeling a certain way. 

This has led to a lot of confusion about my MBTI type. 

Something to keep in mind is that I do NOT know MBTI functions well at all, so if I bullet point things that aren't relevant or need expanding on, don't hesitate to ask. 

- Sometimes I think it's fascinating when people care so much about things I honestly dgaf about. My emotions are wrapped up in myself and what affects me personally. Anything else - the environment, social issues... it's difficult for me to really become emotionally involved in things like that. It's selfish, but there you go. I also watch a lot of true crime, and while I feel empathy for people, sure, I'm never swayed by whether or not someone did or didn't do something based on conjecture. I have to have the full picture before I'll come to any sort of conclusion, and all the facts have to line up. 
- I push myself toward extreme feelings and intensity because I enjoy how it feels and I love the experience. My own emotions are very strong, but never black or white, and I think it's fun to put on different hats just to gain more perspective and learn. 
- When i'm upset about something I'm able to look at the situation rationally. I don't explode. I sit and brood and brood, turning the information over as I try to figure out what's happened. I know how I feel and that isn't something I'm able to manipulate, but I keep the facts separate and my feelings don't affect it. 

What bothers me is that the descriptions of the NON-Fs are so robotic, and I'm far from that. I know descriptions alone are going to be lacking, but it makes it difficult for me to come to a conclusion and I'm forever shifting in my understanding of the types and what it means to be that type. 

Any input or help would be appreciated.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Daenerys Targaryen

Hey, 
do this test and it will give you a general gist on what your function stack is.
If you need help translating it, then ask me.
Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

narcissistic said:


> @*Daenerys Targaryen*
> 
> Hey,
> do this test and it will give you a general gist on what your function stack is.
> ...


Ty. 

This is what I got, lit c/ped. 


YOUR COGNITIVE PROFILE

*Understanding Your Results*
A profile of your cognitive development is presented below, based on how you have described yourself. A 4-letter personality type code and temperament are also presented for your convenience if you are familiar with those frameworks. Most people find their results match their 4-letter personality type code and temperament. That is, we tend to develop what we prefer and vice versa. As you reflect on your cognitive profile, keep in mind that sometimes we develop a cognitive process to meet the demands of our environment or use a process well in one area of our lives but not others.
*The Eight Processes*
Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung identified four mental functions — today known as cognitive processes. We focus our attention and gather information using Sensing (S) and iNtuiting (N), and we organize our experiences and make decisions using Thinking (T) and Feeling (F). Jung described how each of these four processes plays out in a person's "internal world" (I) of thoughts, feelings, memories and imagination; and in the "external world" (E) of actions, people, tools and organizations. Thus, 8 cognitive processes (Se, Si, Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi).
*Basic and Developed Use*
Each cognitive process can be engaged in a basic, unsophisticated way reflecting our natural human capabilities. Almost everyone can engage each process in some basic way. Beyond this, you will engage some cognitive processes in a more sophisticated, developed way. This is usually the result of innate preference plus lifelong growth and practice, which equals development.
*Perceiving—how we focus our attention and gather information*

*Cognitive Process**Basic (Passive) Use**Developed (Active) Use*extraverted Sensing (Se)Notice sensory data in the environment.Trust your instincts and take action relevant to the moment and current context.introverted Sensing (Si)Recall tangible data and experiences.Stabilize a situation by comparing it to what is expected, known and reliable.extraverted Intuiting (Ne)Notice abstract patterns as they emerge.Shift a situation's dynamics and explore imaginative potential possibilities.introverted Intuiting (Ni)Receive "ah-ha" insights and realizations.Persue a greater level of awareness to transform who you are and how you think.
*Judging—how we organize our experiences and make decisions*

*Cognitive Process**Basic (Passive) Use**Developed (Active) Use*extraverted Thinking (Te)Follow steps, points and time tables.Create structure, reason by measures and evidence, and implement complex plans.introverted Thinking (Ti)Adhere to definitions and impersonal principles.Analyze a problem using a framework, and find an angle or leverage by which to solve it.extraverted Feeling (Fe)Honor others' needs and preferences.Connect with people by sharing values and taking on their needs as yours.introverted Feeling (Fi)Adhere to personal beliefs about what's important.Evalute situations and choose what you believe is congruent with your personal identity.
Development is more than basic or developed use of processes in isolation. Excellent use of a cognitive process involves both basic and advanced use as appropriate, and ability to deploy other processes in its service. Average to good use usually means we can use the process in limited situations or use it well but only with the aid of other processes. Poor use means basic use at most. Finally, we may get ourselves into trouble when we don't use a process at all.
*Your Cognitive Development Profile*
The forty-eight questions you rated earlier tap into the eight cognitive processes. Some questions tapped into basic or developed use of a process used by itself, while other questions tapped into use of multiple processes at once. The profile below is based on your responses. The number of squares indicate strength of response. The equivalent numeric is shown in parentheses along with likely level of development.


*Cognitive Process**Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)*extraverted Sensing (Se) ********************************** (34.1)
good useintroverted Sensing (Si) *********** (11.4)
unusedextraverted Intuiting (Ne) *********************************************** (47.1)
excellent useintroverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************************************* (43.2)
excellent useextraverted Thinking (Te) ********************* (21.8)
limited useintroverted Thinking (Ti) *********************************** (35.1)
good useextraverted Feeling (Fe) ***************** (17.8)
limited useintroverted Feeling (Fi) ***************************** (29.1)
average use
*Summary Analysis of Profile*
By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: *ENTP*
*Lead (Dominant) Process*
*Extraverted Intuiting (Ne):* Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation’s dynamics.

*Support (Auxilliary) Process*
*Introverted Thinking (Ti):* Gaining leverage (influence) using a framework. Detaching to study a situation from different angles and fit it to a theory, framework or principle. Checking for accuracy. Using leverage to solve the problem.
​If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: *INTP*, or *ENFP*


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Daenerys Targaryen

Ne>>Si (looks like a dom-inf relationship)
Ni>Se (looks like a aux-ter relationship)
Ti>>Fe (looks like a dom-inf relationship)
Fi>Te (looks like a aux-ter relationship)

Possibilities:
*ENTP:* but with resisting Fe.
*ENFP*
*INTP:* highly unlikely (stating it so you know)
*ISTP:* but with Ti-Ni loop.

Would say: 
ENFP>ENTP depending on if you are resisting Fe or not.
ISTP>INTP,
ENxP>ISTP.

Information about resisting Fe and looping Ti-Ni:

*Resisting Fe development: *

* *





excessive need for independence and overlooks the needs of others; refuses to prioritize important relationships or accommodate people; fearful of commitment; tendency to be manipulative, careless, irresponsible, or callous with other people’s feelings; sees compassion or emotional sensitivity as a sign of weakness; refuses to acknowledge the perspectives of those one disagrees with; prone to indifference, arrogance, or condescension; completely out of touch with own feelings and emotions




*Defensive loop tendencies: *

* *





cannot seem to trust in anyone or anything; passive, negative, pessimistic, or self-defeating; paranoid or suspicious about being restricted or controlled by outside forces; tends to be cynical about the future/people/world; tends to obsess about the past or future and ignore present facts; tends to overanalyze problems with poor results; feels like a lone wolf and unable to fit in, perceiving oneself as misunderstood or unappreciated by others; prone to pursuing “alternative” or antisocial or unproductive lifestyle choices to immaturely express independence or individuality; tendency to believe in mystical “signs” or intuitive “connections” that don’t really exist; makes poor knee-jerk judgments with the unconscious intent to avoid confronting objective factual reality (and stick with the aspects of life that one is most comfortable with)




*Ti-Ni loop dynamics: *

* *





Compelled to rationalize away one’s problematic beliefs, judgments, or decisions by applying any idea/perspective one can find -> but ultimately cannot see the purpose/point/meaning of any experience or action because of having no way of verifying which perspective is correct or factually accurate (i.e. fails/refuses to broaden knowledge base beyond mere personal knowledge) ->




ENTP's Ti vs ENFP's Fi:

*ENTPs’ Auxiliary Function: Introverted Thinking (Ti)*

* *





As dominant Perceivers, ENTPs are disposed to taking a more passive approach to life, particularly with regard to the outside world. Like other EPs, they are content to remain in a mode of open Perceiving until they are prompted, whether inwardly or outwardly, to employ their auxiliary Judging function, Introverted Thinking (Ti). When ENTPs feel compelled to engage their Ti, they become more inwardly focused and intense, similar to the typical mode of operation for INTPs. But because Ti is introverted in its direction, onlookers may fail to notice this more rational side of the ENTP.

Ti involves the application of logic and reason for the sake of understanding a given situation, system, or problem. It also works to bring structure and order to the inner world. This inner structuring grants ENTPs a good sense of inner control.

When engaging their Ti, ENTPs dig into the background of their thoughts to better understand their origins and to ensure their ideas are logical. Like INTPs, they can quickly find inconsistencies or logical shortcomings in a given theory or argument. They excel at identifying exceptions or imagining scenarios in which the proposed explanation might breakdown. They find it easier to identify logical shortcomings or inconsistencies —to assert what is not true—than to confidently assert what is true.

The difference between Ti in ENTPs versus INTPs is its place in the functional stack. For INTPs, it comes first, which makes them quicker to inwardly judge. INTPs then use their auxiliary Ne to open up and further explore their initial judgments. In ENTPs, the order is reversed. Rather than starting with an initial judgment or presumption like INTPs, they approach things through the fresh eyes of Intuition. They then employ their Ti to analyze and enhance the logic and structuring of their Ne perceptions.

In addition to the different ordering of their functional stacks, ENTPs, as dominant Perceivers, can more easily leave things open-ended or ambiguous than INTPs can. Their Ne dominance also makes them more open to “playing” than INTPs are. I once administered a values inventory and was surprised when a couple ENTPs marked “having fun” as one of their top priorities in life. To most INTPs, whose dominant Ti compels them to take life seriously, such a response smacks of hedonism and would likely be among their lowest ranked values. ENTPs’ dominant Ne may also confer a greater interest in the arts and culture than typically seen among INTPs

The difference between Ti and Fi seems largely a matter of interests and emphases. Fi types (FPs) are more concerned and skilled with moral judgments (Fi) than logical ones (Ti). They judge in terms of good and bad, love and hate, like and dislike. TPs, in contrast, start out with a need for sound logic (Ti) and are generally less concerned with matters of taste or morality upfront. They think less in terms of love and hate than reasonable and unreasonable, logical and illogical. With that said, since T and F are adjacent in ENTPs’ functional stack, it can sometimes be a bit tricky, especially early in their development, to tease out their T-F preference.




*ENFPs’ Auxiliary Function: Introverted Feeling (Fi)*

* *





Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the auxiliary function of both ENFPs and ESFPs. One of Fi’s primary concerns is the development of a personalized worldview, independent of societal conventions, which can serve as a platform for self-understanding and decision-making.

Fi is quite similar to Introverted Thinking (Ti) in that it involves an ongoing process of building an inner worldview and approach to life. The primary difference is that Fi focuses more on personal tastes (i.e., “likes and dislikes”) and moral judgments (i.e., “good and bad”), whereas Ti thinks more in terms of “true and false,” “logical or illogical.” Consequently, ENFPs first inclination is to use Fi to make moral, artistic, or taste-related evaluations, whereas ENTPs use Ti to evaluate the validity and veracity of concepts.

The difference between Fi in ENFPs versus INFPs is its place in the functional stack. For INFPs, it comes first, which makes them quicker to judge. Afterward, they use their Ne to probe the judgment to see if it is valid or whether it should be kept open or “grey.” For ENFPs, the order is reversed. They do not start with an initial judgment or presumption like INFPs. This is particularly true in Phase I of their development. ENPs are wired to approach each situation with the openness of their Ne. After exploring things by way of their Ne, they use their Fi to form a judgment. Then, if they feel confident in that judgment, they may express it through their tertiary Te.

One of the more important features of Fi is its direction. Namely, because it is introverted, outsiders may not have easy access to ENFPs’ emotions, with the exception of their general spiritedness and enthusiasm. Like ESFPs, ENFPs express their Feeling judgments somewhat indirectly through their Te. This may at times lead others to view ENFPs as Thinking types, while seeing ENTPs, who extravert their judgments by way of Extraverted Feeling, as Feeling types.




*Ne-Ti:* 
*Healthy Ti* means you seek to achieve fast change or improvement in the world through trying to figure out which decision could have the biggest possible impact. You prioritize making decisions that seem to you to be unbiased or free of irrelevant information. 
*Unhealthy Ti* often leads to bad judgment, impatience, resistance against careful thought/analysis, self-confidence issues, arrogance, or insensitivity to the needs of others/society.

*Ne-Fi:* 
*Healthy Fi* means you seek to achieve fast change or improvement in the world through trying to figure out which decision could have the biggest possible moral and emotional impact on yourself and/or others. You prioritize the need to make decisions that are empathetic and compassionate to the people involved above the need to solve problems immediately, especially for those whom you believe to fall within your care or responsibility. 
*Unhealthy Fi* often leads to harmful inconsistency in applying moral values, self-centeredness, low self-confidence, indecisiveness, lack of self-care, or lack of patience in handling difficult problems.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

I'm going to bold what I relate to. The functions are something I've never really learned, so going into resisting Fe and the more complicated parts of the system, I start to get really thrown off.

*Resisting Fe development: *

* *





*excessive need for independence and overlooks the needs of others; refuses to prioritize important relationships or accommodate people; fearful of commitment; tendency to be manipulative, careless, irresponsible, or callous with other people’s feelings; sees compassion or emotional sensitivity as a sign of weakness; refuses to acknowledge the perspectives of those one disagrees with; prone to indifference, arrogance, or condescension;* completely out of touch with own feelings and emotions




*Defensive loop tendencies: *

* *





cannot seem to trust in anyone or anything; *passive, negative, pessimistic, or self-defeating;* paranoid or suspicious about being restricted or controlled by outside forces; tends to be cynical about the future/people/world;* tends to obsess about the past or future and ignore present facts;* tends to overanalyze problems with poor results; *feels like a lone wolf and unable to fit in, perceiving oneself as misunderstood or unappreciated by others; prone to pursuing “alternative” or antisocial or unproductive lifestyle choices to immaturely express independence or individuality; tendency to believe in mystical “signs” or intuitive “connections” that don’t really exist;* makes poor knee-jerk judgments with the unconscious intent to avoid confronting objective factual reality (and stick with the aspects of life that one is most comfortable with)




*Ti-Ni loop dynamics: *

* *





Compelled to rationalize away one’s problematic beliefs, judgments, or decisions by applying any idea/perspective one can find -> but ultimately cannot see the purpose/point/meaning of any experience or action because of having no way of verifying which perspective is correct or factually accurate (i.e. fails/refuses to broaden knowledge base beyond mere personal knowledge) ->




ENTP's Ti vs ENFP's Fi:

*ENTPs’ Auxiliary Function: Introverted Thinking (Ti)*

* *





*As dominant Perceivers, ENTPs are disposed to taking a more passive approach to life, particularly with regard to the outside world. Like other EPs, they are content to remain in a mode of open Perceiving until they are prompted, whether inwardly or outwardly, to employ their auxiliary Judging function, Introverted Thinking (Ti). When ENTPs feel compelled to engage their Ti, they become more inwardly focused and intense, similar to the typical mode of operation for INTPs. But because Ti is introverted in its direction, onlookers may fail to notice this more rational side of the ENTP.*

Ti involves the application of logic and reason for the sake of understanding a given situation, system, or problem. It also works to bring structure and order to the inner world. This inner structuring grants ENTPs a good sense of inner control.

*When engaging their Ti, ENTPs dig into the background of their thoughts to better understand their origins and to ensure their ideas are logical. Like INTPs, they can quickly find inconsistencies or logical shortcomings in a given theory or argument. They excel at identifying exceptions or imagining scenarios in which the proposed explanation might breakdown. They find it easier to identify logical shortcomings or inconsistencies —to assert what is not true—than to confidently assert what is true.*

The difference between Ti in ENTPs versus INTPs is its place in the functional stack. For INTPs, it comes first, which makes them quicker to inwardly judge. INTPs then use their auxiliary Ne to open up and further explore their initial judgments. *In ENTPs, the order is reversed. Rather than starting with an initial judgment or presumption like INTPs, they approach things through the fresh eyes of Intuition*. They then employ their Ti to analyze and enhance the logic and structuring of their Ne perceptions.

In addition to the different ordering of their functional stacks, *ENTPs, as dominant Perceivers, can more easily leave things open-ended or ambiguous than INTPs can. Their Ne dominance also makes them more open to “playing” than INTPs are. I once administered a values inventory and was surprised when a couple ENTPs marked “having fun” as one of their top priorities in life.* To most INTPs, whose dominant Ti compels them to take life seriously, such a response smacks of hedonism and would likely be among their lowest ranked values. *ENTPs’ dominant Ne may also confer a greater interest in the arts and culture than typically seen among INTPs*

The difference between Ti and Fi seems largely a matter of interests and emphases. Fi types (FPs) are more concerned and skilled with moral judgments (Fi) than logical ones (Ti). They judge in terms of good and bad, love and hate, like and dislike. TPs, in contrast, start out with a need for sound logic (Ti) and are generally* less concerned with matters of taste or morality upfront.* *They think less in terms of love and hate than reasonable and unreasonable, logical and illogical. (THIS IS SO TRUE x10000000000000)* With that said, since T and F are adjacent in ENTPs’ functional stack, it can sometimes be a bit tricky, especially early in their development, to tease out their T-F preference.




*ENFPs’ Auxiliary Function: Introverted Feeling (Fi)*

* *





Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the auxiliary function of both ENFPs and ESFPs. One of Fi’s primary concerns is the development of a personalized worldview, independent of societal conventions, which can serve as a platform for self-understanding and decision-making.

Fi is quite similar to Introverted Thinking (Ti) in that it involves an ongoing process of building an inner worldview and approach to life. The primary difference is that Fi focuses more on personal tastes (i.e., “likes and dislikes”) and moral judgments (i.e., “good and bad”), *whereas Ti thinks more in terms of “true and false,” “logical or illogical.”* Consequently, ENFPs first inclination is to use Fi to make moral, artistic, or taste-related evaluations, whereas ENTPs use Ti to evaluate the validity and veracity of concepts.

The difference between Fi in ENFPs versus INFPs is its place in the functional stack. For INFPs, it comes first, which makes them quicker to judge. Afterward, they use their Ne to probe the judgment to see if it is valid or whether it should be kept open or “grey.” For ENFPs, the order is reversed. They do not start with an initial judgment or presumption like INFPs. This is particularly true in Phase I of their development. ENPs are wired to *approach each situation with the openness of their Ne. After exploring things by way of their Ne, they use their Fi to form a judgment.* Then, if they feel confident in that judgment, they may express it through their tertiary Te.

One of the more important features of Fi is its direction. Namely, because it is introverted, outsiders may not have easy access to ENFPs’ emotions, with the exception of their general spiritedness and enthusiasm. Like ESFPs, ENFPs express their Feeling judgments somewhat indirectly through their Te. This may at times lead others to view ENFPs as Thinking types, while seeing ENTPs, who extravert their judgments by way of Extraverted Feeling, as Feeling types.




*Ne-Ti:* 
*Healthy Ti* means you *seek to achieve fast change or improvement in the world through trying to figure out which decision could have the biggest possible impact. You prioritize making decisions that seem to you to be unbiased or free of irrelevant information. *
*Unhealthy Ti* often leads to bad judgment,* impatience, *resistance against careful thought/analysis, *self-confidence issues, arrogance, or insensitivity to the needs of others/society.*

*Ne-Fi:* 
*Healthy Fi* means you seek to achieve fast change or improvement in the world through trying to figure out which decision could have the biggest possible moral and *emotional impact on yourself* and/or others. You prioritize the need to make decisions that are empathetic and compassionate to the people involved above the need to solve problems immediately, especially for those whom you believe to fall within your care or responsibility. 
*Unhealthy Fi* often leads to harmful inconsistency in applying moral values, *self-centeredness, low self-confidence, indecisiveness, lack of self-care, or lack of patience* in handling difficult problems.

... I don't know if bolding what you showed me might help at all. The main thing is that I look at a concept and try to find the holes in it, versus holding to my own personal standards. I recognize it as subjective. It doesn't mean that I have no opinion, but I find my opinion pointless if I'm trying to analyze something for its own sake.

The primary difference is that Fi focuses more on personal tastes (i.e., “likes and dislikes”) and moral judgments (i.e., “good and bad”), *whereas Ti thinks more in terms of “true and false,” “logical or illogical.”

*^
That is my biggest point of contention between the two. I see no point in moral judgments, I don't really believe in immorality as it's conventionally defined, and my personal taste doesn't seem important because it isn't the reality being presented.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Daenerys Targaryen

I felt like this when you bolded the text:








Because I usually have to go through 1000s (word count) of text being 70-80% of it as useless information.
So I'm really happy you did that.

Regardless,
*You are ENTP*.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

narcissistic said:


> @*Daenerys Targaryen*
> 
> I felt like this when you bolded the text:
> 
> ...


I feel you on that. I figured that would be more direct and make it easier to break down.

*



You are ENTP.

Click to expand...

*That's what I'm leaning toward at this point.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

*MyersBriggs-wise:*

Nobody is 100% of *anything,* but the descriptions you find online tend to be written around the hypothetical 100% extremes.

Moreover, "T" versus "F" isn't about "Do you have emotion or not." The word for somebody who doesn't have emotion is "psychopath," and those only make up 1% of the population, whereas Thinkers are closer to 40%.

Thinker just means that you think more in terms of the things that you do for your loved ones, whereas Feeler just means that you think more in terms of the loved ones that you do things for. It's not how much you *have* emotion, it's about how much you *value* emotion as the basis for important decisions.

I would even argue that Thinkers often have *stronger* emotional reactions than Feelers, simply because we don't tend to be as comfortable with our emotions - prefering to be more analytical – and we tend to bottle more:










Feelers think that Thinkers are computers because we don't have emotions. In reality, we are computers because our emotions are binary :wink:


* *












*Cognitive Functions wise:*

Ne (47.1) - Ni (43.2) - Ti (35.1) - Se (34.1) - Fi (29.1) - Te (21.8) - Fe (17.8) - Si (11.4) best simplifies to

Ni/Se combined is stronger than Ne/Si combined (either xNxJ or xSxP)
Ti/Fe and Fi/Te are about the same, but both Ji are stronger than either Je (xxxP)

This leaves Ti-Se-Ni-Fe, Fi-Se-Ni-Te, Se-Fi-Te-Ni, and Se-Ti-Fe-Ni as the least inaccurate combinations so far. The fact that both Je are a lot weaker than your Ni means that we can further narrow you down to Ti-Se-Ni-Fe and Fi-Se-Ni-Te.

This becomes harder to narrow down to just one - your Ti is stronger than your Fi, implying ISTP, but your Te is also stronger than your Fe, implying ISFP - but on the whole you can still easily enough say that your Cognitive functions type is ISxP.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Simpson17866

You seem to have neglected:
Ne>>Si.
i.e. the obvious possibility of ENxP.



> Ni/Se combined is stronger than Ne/Si combined (either xNxJ or xSxP)
> Ti/Fe and Fi/Te are about the same, but both Ji are stronger than either Je (xxxP)


I can assume you're talking about the aux-ter relationship here.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

narcissistic said:


> @Simpson17866
> 
> You seem to have neglected:
> Ne>>Si.
> ...


 No, just the functions themselves. Ne was a little stronger than either Ni or Se, but Si was a *lot* weaker, showing a stronger preference for the Ni/Se pairing as a whole than for the Ne/Si pairing as a whole.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> No, just the functions themselves. Ne was a little stronger than either Ni or Se, but Si was a *lot* weaker, showing a stronger preference for the Ni/Se pairing as a whole than for the Ne/Si pairing as a whole.


So are you suggesting Si is her: Blind-spot or PoLR function?


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

narcissistic said:


> So are you suggesting Si is her: Blind-spot or PoLR function?


 What's PoLR again?


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> What's PoLR again?


"Point of Least Resistance" aka Vulnerable Function:
That's socionics terminology,
but I suspect blind-spot functions are still present in MBTI.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ENTP - Charming, innovative, friendly, but argumentative. The "Swiss Army Knives" of MBTI. They can usually work out a solution to every problem, or a problem for every solution. Always up for something new. Can sometimes come off as unemotional until you get to know them. 
Ne-->Ti-->Fe-->Si

ENFP - Outgoing, adaptive, enthusiastic, people-oriented. These folk can be annoyingly attention-seeking at times, but make some of the best and most loyal friends you will ever have. Highly free-spirited. Will join causes only if they strongly believe in them. 
Ne-->Fi-->Te-->Si

Both types are somewhat "ambiverted," meaning they can move between alone time and group time with minimal difficulty. Both are very adaptable and agreeable, unless you try to manipulate, fool, or lie to them, then they tend to become increasingly disinterested in your company. Less likely to seek revenge, they'll simply drop people who cross them without ever looking back, or explaining why. Both also enjoy playful banter, wordplay, puns, and the like.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Simpson17866 said:


> Moreover, "T" versus "F" isn't about "Do you have emotion or not." The word for somebody who doesn't have emotion is "psychopath," and those only make up 1% of the population, whereas Thinkers are closer to 40%.


I wouldn't think so, but the descriptions are written so terribly that it certainly makes it sound that way.



> Thinker just means that you think more in terms of the things that you do for your loved ones, whereas Feeler just means that you think more in terms of the loved ones that you do things for. It's not how much you *have* emotion, it's about how much you *value* emotion as the basis for important decisions.


I don't value emotion in important decisions, but only because I KNOW how my emotions don't always reflect facts or the reality around me. I am very aware of how out of tune they can be. I feel things very intensely, but also selectively, and they don't color my understanding or my decision-making process unless it's something catastrophic. 



> I would even argue that Thinkers often have *stronger* emotional reactions than Feelers, simply because we don't tend to be as comfortable with our emotions - prefering to be more analytical – and we tend to bottle more:


I'm comfortable with what I feel and I'm comfortable with emotion, but I have a very developed analytical side that doesn't let me get swayed by emotion over fact.



> This becomes harder to narrow down to just one - your Ti is stronger than your Fi, implying ISTP, but your Te is also stronger than your Fe, implying ISFP - but on the whole you can still easily enough say that your Cognitive functions type is ISxP.


Never considered that type before, but I'll definitely look into it.



tanstaafl28 said:


> *ENTP - Charming, innovative, friendly,* but argumentative. The "Swiss Army Knives" of MBTI. *They can usually work out a solution to every problem, or a problem for every solution. Always up for something new. Can sometimes come off as unemotional until you get to know them.*
> Ne-->Ti-->Fe-->Si
> 
> ENFP - Outgoing, *adaptive*, enthusiastic, people-oriented. These folk can be annoyingly attention-seeking at times, but make some of the *best and most loyal friends you will ever have. Highly free-spirited.* Will join causes only if they strongly believe in them.
> ...


The similarities (what I bolded) I can really relate to, except I have a difficult time letting go of people. I can do it in the moment without much thought, but I have a strong nostalgic streak. If I really care about someone, I will accept them back into my life if they apologize and want to connect again. I don't seek revenge necessarily, but I have a bit of a sadistic satisfaction if I see someone get what they deserve and I would have no trouble facilitating that, given the chance. 

I won't join a cause hardly ever, even though I recognize it might be the right thing to do. Political movements or causes don't really touch me, even when they affect me. If I were personally involved and was somehow greatly inspired, I might join it, depending on the platform. I also like the idea of being an underdog and a losing fight would be exciting in its own right.

What has me leaning toward ENTP is that I do appear withdrawn and aloof/disinterested around people I don't know well. Once I'm comfortable I open up and am more sociable, but overall, I'd rather just do my own thing.

What has me leaning away ENTP is that I like attention, but I'm not demonstrative or annoying about it. I have friends who shamelessly seek attention and I'm always *eyeroll* behind their back. I'd rather make things fall into place for myself behind the scenes so that I'm not making a fool of myself. But I DO enjoy attention and I'm not a shy person. I just don't engage with people unless they've caught my interest in some way, which seems to be a more rare occurrence than it used to be.

Either way, I love playful banter and poking holes in theories is one of my favorite things to do. It's what initially made me want to type as 4w5 and is singularly why I like reading about true crime so much. I like being given all the facts and coming to my own understanding of what might have happened. While it's interesting to read about others' perceptions, I don't take it into much consideration or let it sway me unless they are an expert of some kind or have given me something new to mull over.

I know that ENFPs have a strong analytical side to them so this doesn't discount ENFP, either.

I'm kind of stuck.


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

entp


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

@ai.tran.75 - Kind of summoning you to this train just to see what you think, if you have time.


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## Endologic (Feb 14, 2015)

narcissistic said:


> @Daenerys Targaryen
> 
> Hey,
> do this test and it will give you a general gist on what your function stack is.
> ...


Logic >>>>>>>> Tests

The best and most accurate way for someone to find out their type is to explain the theory to them / help them get a grasp on it, and for them to evaluate who they are.
Nobody knows one better than oneself.

@Daenerys Targaryen

An ENTP has internal thinking (short: Ti) and external feeling (short: Fe)
They process things with logic - they check whether and how much sense things make and draw deductions from what they learned.
Their values and morals are environmental - they think in groups and types rather than individuals, and moral principles are general.

An ENFP has internal feeling (Fi) and external thinking (Te)
They process things with emotion - they relate things to each other and have empathy with individuals, rather than types of people.
Their logic applies to the environment - they only learn and spend time with things that matter to them and those who they hold dear. They also filter information by relevance when it comes to problem-solving, rather than considering all data.

Also, you may get along great with @mhysa


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Emologic said:


> Logic >>>>>>>> Tests
> 
> The best and most accurate way for someone to find out their type is to explain the theory to them / help them get a grasp on it, and for them to evaluate who they are.
> Nobody knows one better than oneself.
> ...


What if you process things with logic, despite being aware of how you feel about it - but having the ability to separate it? 

I don't really think in terms of groups. Morality doesn't exist to me in general. I suppose I have a personal moral code, in a way, but it really depends on who's standing in front of me and what makes the most sense in the moment. So that part is individualized. I like to consider all sides to something, which includes the emotional, subjective component, although the facts sway me more.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Emologic said:


> Logic >>>>>>>> Tests
> 
> The best and most accurate way for someone to find out their type is to explain the theory to them / help them get a grasp on it, and for them to evaluate who they are.
> Nobody knows one better than oneself.


Why am I quoted in this?

Underlined:
Incorrect, it is natural for people to be blind to themselves.
If they knew themselves best then there wouldn't be so many threads as of such as they would simply only need to research MBTI/cognitive functions.
That would suggest that people are incompetent to research.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

narcissistic said:


> What is Grant (in terms of: the theory, not: what my Grant is)?


 The stack system popularized by Harold Grant says that each type only uses 2 pairs of opposite functions: INTP = Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, ESTJ = Te-Si-Ne-Fi...


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

@*Daenerys Targaryen* you're an ENTP. Your uncertainty of your type is due to your understanding of the functions and function stack. You are denying to be one thing or the other based on your interpretation of the questions asked. That is understandable but if someone doesn't take the time to read everything you've said and how you've said it, everything you say no to, 'I'm not like that', they could take your word for it and discount it as a possibility. 

Here is a prime example of what I mean: earlier on someone wrote a brief but comprehensive description of an ENFP and ENTP. In the ENTP section there was a part that said they're argumentative. What was really stated here is that they like debates. Maybe you understood it as literal arguments (angry at someone) and therefore you didn't bold that part. In a latter post you say you really enjoy debates and you stated why. 

Everything you've said all points down to ENTP. It's your own personal, not fully developed understanding of the functions that's causing you to deny one or the other in a way that you wouldn't if you had a firm grasp of the functions, etc.

There are so many parts you have written that I could break down like the above (debates).

Your understanding of Fe is wrong/incomplete and it would be beneficial for you to take your time to mull over it.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Weekend said:


> OP you're an ENTP. Your uncertainty of your type is due to your understanding of the functions and the function stack. You are denying to be one thing or the other based on your interpretation of the questions asked. That is understandable but if someone doesn't take the time to read everything you've said and how you've said it, everything you say no to, 'I'm not like that', they could take your word for it and discount that possibility.


I appreciate that you took the time to read through it. I do not understand MBTI and I have no qualms about saying so; I should just buckle down and learn the functions. It's laziness that's keeping me from it. I'll get around to it eventually.



> Here is a prime example of what I mean: earlier on someone wrote a brief but comprehensive description of an ENFP and ENTP. In the ENTP section there was a part that said they're argumentative. What was really stated here is that they like debates. Maybe you understood it as literal arguments (angry at someone) and therefore you didn't bold that part. In a latter post you say you really enjoy debates and you stated why.


You hit the nail on the head. I saw argumentative and interpreted that as arguing in an angry fashion. I don't typically like arguing unless I have good reason to. I tend to see all sides of an issue and I like talking it over with someone interested in having good conversation. 



> Everything you've said all points down to ENTP. It's your own personal, not fully developed understanding of the functions that's causes you to deny one or the other in a way that you wouldn't if you had a firm grasp of the functions, etc.
> 
> There are so many parts you have written that I could break down like the above (debates).
> 
> Your understanding of Fe is wrong and it would be beneficial for you to take your time to mull over it.


I have no idea what Fe is, lmao, so I take your word for it. Do you have a preferred definition, or website that describes the functions accurately?


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

I edited my post slightly. While I'd still like you to really delve into Fe to gain understanding, I'd now like to go through your post regarding Ti and Fe to show you what I mean. It will take me some time to start since I'm busy but in the meantime it would help both of us if you went into Fe a little more.

I'm glad you understood what I was saying.

I'll grab a link for your soon. It's a pretty excellent desription but even so you'd need to take your time in understanding it and you'd need personal experience and other examples to solidify your understanding.

@*Daenerys Targaryen*
I'm on my phone so when I edit my posts it's quite slow lol and you're replying quickly! Anyway, here's the link. While it's good to have simple descriptions of Fe and Fi, I believe it's good to have a resource with much more depth so that you can refer back whenever you forget the real meaning behind what's said simply.

Yeah, that site is one of my preferred resources but I can't rely solely on it. I need to go look for more personal experiences to understand what it's saying. That said, I'm able to understand what's on that site now because I've spent like what... a little over a year going into all this stuff? 

*Also, yes, you are logical and you make decisions (solve problems) that way. Yes, you use Fe as well but because it is lower down on your function stack - it is not your preferred method to handle decisions.* Please keep this in mind so when you are reading all about Fe and Fi you don't keep saying to yourself, but that's not me! I'm not emotional! etc, etc.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> I have no idea what Fe is, lmao, so I take your word for it. Do you have a preferred definition, or website that describes the functions accurately?


 Ti, Introverted Thinking: wanting your internal mindscape to make sense

Te, Extraverted Thinking: wanting the world around you to make sense

Fi, Introverted Feeling: wanting to act according to your personal values

Fe, Extraverted Feeling: wanting to act according to your social group's expectations


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## Endologic (Feb 14, 2015)

narcissistic said:


> Could you please speed yourself up when "debating" with me,
> I know it must be hard having to be ignorant on purpose and having to try find ways to be ignorant,
> but still: waiting 30 minutes for you to reply is tedious.


Of course your previous mistakes stem from you replying this fast as you don't think through what you're writing.

You call me "ingnorant", yet you derogatorily put quotation marks on "debating", like this. You are your namesake.

I'm actually making something really cool on Photoshop regarding this "non-quotation marked" debate, so I apologize if it takes longer for me to reply.



> Actually you being INTP or not is subjective.


Internally objective.



> Yes, an INTP does not have Te as their preferred function in their stack.
> However Te is still used by an INTP never the less, and that goes for all types.


That goes for no type.

The MBTI is based on deductions regarding the human psyche.

There are 2 cognitive modes: Perception and Judgement.
There are 2 types of Perception: Sensation and Intuition.
There are 2 types of Judgement: Logical and Ethical.

*If A is introverted, B must be extroverted.*
This logic applies to all of the above, and this is the foundation of all deductions drawn in the MBTI.

Everybody senses, intuits, thinks and feels.

If one's S is introverted and one's N is extroverted, an extroverted S and an introverted N cannot coexist in their psyche.
If one's F is introverted and one's T is extroverted, an extroverted F and an introverted T cannot coexist in their psyche.

If one's more introverted, one's internal function is better, and if one's more extroverted, one's external function is better.
The mirroring logic is used once more to cover the lesser functions, and this is what sets the "dominant-auxiliary-tertiary-inferior" rule in stone.

Example:
"A" has internal sensing, and external thinking.
Therefore, A has external intuition and internal feeling.
A is an introvert. Therefore, internal sensing is his dominant function.
This means, external intuition is his inferior function, because it mirrors.

*This is how the psyche of all conscious life works. These are the laws of Psychology.*

If a Ti-user used Te, he would be literally breaking the laws of Psychology (defying his own nature).
He can only feign Te.

You should know a lot about fiction. Oftentimes, especially in anime, there are characters who defy the laws of physics with ease. There are characters who become as powerful as gods. However, they remain a slave to the laws of Psychology. If they broke them, they would become another person.

That's why I believe that if God exists, it must have 4 brains.

Since you're well-versed in Socionics, I'll explain it like this: God would have to have balanced cognitive functions on the Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta psyche structures.

If you want for me to elaborate on that, I can do that.



> That is indeed fact,
> but not a contradiction.


Of course you wouldn't see the contradiction as you believe that every type has every functions and only prefers half of them.
Unless you have two brains, you cannot have more than 4 cognitive functions.



> Her being ENTP is subjective,
> but I agree upon her being ENTP.


No, it's objective, but simply not empirical.



> Why can an ENTP not possess the ability to use Ni or Se?


your question should be answered. I explained it above.



> Yes, indeed her having both high Ne and Ni is fact.
> But not a contradiction.


Considering that (I proved, by pure logic, that) it's impossible to have both Ne and Ni, having both functions is the contradiction.



> No, you are just close-minded and believe people can only utilize/possess 4 functions and "that's that".


You're the one denying logic and not willing to handle the truth.



> Again from my an earlier post of mine that was on another thread:
> "Don't assert on others your opinion."


"Opinion"?
I gave you deductions, I gave you the foundation of the theory of MBTI. I might as well give you Carl Jung himself.
I thought you were logical. I gave you the purest logic you have ever tasted, and you rejected all of it.



> You are proving my point by being blind to blindness.


You are proving my point by being blind to logic.



> Also proving my point of you being close-minded and ignorant.


I don't even have to make it a point to expose you as being close-minded and ignorant. It's already apparent.



> I can not be bothered arguing about such when clearly you are pulling the: ambiguity card.


There's nothing ambiguous about it. You blamed the individual's intrapersonal skills, when it's clearly the individual's grasp on the theory.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Weekend said:


> I edited my post slightly. While I'd still like you to really delve into Fe to gain understanding, I'd now like to go through your post regarding Ti and Fe to show you what I mean. It will take me some time to start since I'm busy but in the meantime it would help both of us if you went into Fe a little more.


Definitely. Thank you!



> I'm glad you understood what I was saying.


As well as possible while being clueless about MBTI. 



Simpson17866 said:


> Ti, Introverted Thinking: wanting your internal mindscape to make sense
> 
> Te, Extraverted Thinking: wanting the world around you to make sense
> 
> ...


I see I see. I feel like I do all of these things, aside from Fi, but I suppose that goes into the definition of "values"...


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

Simpson17866 said:


> The stack system popularized by Harold Grant says that each type only uses 2 pairs of opposite functions: INTP = Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, ESTJ = Te-Si-Ne-Fi...


Confused now on what my type "should" be based upon:
The MBTI's I/E N/S T/F J/P or the cognitive function's Pi Pe Ji Je

Because MBTI would be IxTJ, and cog would be INTP + ESTJ


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Emologic

You're applying the theory of: E/I S/N T/F J/P to the theory of: Pi Pe Ji Je,
that will not work.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Weekend said:


> I'll grab a link for your soon. It's a pretty excellent desription but even so you'd need to take your time in understanding it and you'd need personal experience and other examples to solidify your understanding.
> 
> I'm on my phone so when I edit my posts it's quite slow lol and you're replying quickly! Anyway, here's the link. While it's good to have simple descriptions of Fe and Fi, I believe it's good to have a resource with much more depth so that you can refer back whenever you forget the real meaning behind what's said simply.
> 
> Yeah, that site is one of my preferred resources but I can't rely solely on it. I need to go look for more personal experiences to understand what it's saying. That said, I'm able to understand what's on that site now because I've spent like what... a little over a year going into all this stuff?


That is a really, really good website. Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I can see why you prefer this site above some of the others I've stumbled across. Those websites made me want to fling myself into the sun.

One of the other things that had always turned me away from ENTP was because it's rare that it corresponds with enneagram type 4, which I have no doubt is my type. It seems that these functions operate in an entirely different way than what I've learned of the enneagram, which is more personality based and less about how someone takes in/processes information.


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## Simpson17866 (Dec 3, 2014)

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> I see I see. I feel like I do all of these things, aside from Fi, but I suppose that goes into the definition of "values"...


 Everybody does all of this, I just know that I do Fi and Ti *more* than Fe or Te.



narcissistic said:


> Confused now on what my type "should" be based upon:
> The MBTI's I/E N/S T/F J/P or the cognitive function's Pi Pe Ji Je
> 
> Because MBTI would be IxTJ, and cog would be INTP + ESTJ


 I'd go with MBTI just for being more straightforward.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Simpson17866 said:


> Everybody does all of this, I just know that I do Fi and Ti *more* than Fe or Te.


And that's where the stacking comes in, I'm assuming?


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## Candy Apple (Sep 10, 2015)

Daenerys Targaryen said:


> That is a really, really good website. Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. I can see why you prefer this site above some of the others I've stumbled across. Those websites made me want to fling myself into the sun.


lmfao lovely description



> One of the other things that had always turned me away from ENTP was because it's rare that it corresponds with enneagram type 4, which I have no doubt is my type. It seems that these functions operate in an entirely different way than what I've learned of the enneagram, which is more personality based and less about how someone takes in/processes information.


I don't delve into enneagram nor do I really have a surface understanding or insight to it BUT I still agree that it's personality based so I believe it is quite 'different'.

Also I edited my earlier post.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Daenerys Targaryen



> One of the other things that had always turned me away from ENTP was because it's rare that it corresponds with enneagram type 4, which I have no doubt is my type.


Enneagram is somewhat different in theory to MBTI,
though there is somewhat of a correlation between the two theories.

Type 4s are common in: INFP, INFJ and INTP.
Type 7s are common in: ENFP, ESFP and ENTP
Type 9s are common in: INFP, INFJ, ISFP, and ISFJ.

So I doubt you have to worry about enneagram not matching up with ENTP,
because it doesn't match up with ENFP either.


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## Endologic (Feb 14, 2015)

narcissistic said:


> @Emologic
> 
> You're applying the theory of: E/I S/N T/F J/P to the theory of: Pi Pe Ji Je,
> that will not work.


I think that what you think that I think is wrong.

_If Judgement is introverted, Perception must be extroverted, and vice versa._
If Ji, then Pe. If Pi, then Je.

This doesn't mean that I mean that both T and F are introverted and that both S and N are extroverted.
This applies to the greater functions in relation to each other and lesser functions in relation to each other.

Our example will be an NT.
If his N is extroverted, his T must be introverted.
Then, the mirroring logic dictates that if his dominant function is Ne, his inferior function must be Si.

One's lesser functions are always the mirror to one's greater functions.
@narcissistic
You, out of nothing, changed yourself to INTJ?

You dirty switch-hitter. Changing type is impossible (With the exception on intro/extroversion). Are you just trying to piss me off because you know that I know it makes no sense and illogical things piss me off?


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Emologic



> I think that what you think that I think is wrong.


Go read about socionics and your mind will be blown.
But it seems that you already have if you've decided LII.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Weekend said:


> *Also, yes, you are logical and you make decisions (solve problems) that way. Yes, you use Fe as well but because it is lower down on your function stack - it is not your preferred method to handle decisions.* Please keep this in mind so when you are reading all about Fe and Fi you don't keep saying to yourself, but that's not me! I'm not emotional! etc, etc.


Looking at Fe and Fi, there are things I relate to with both of them, but in general, you're right, neither of them are far up when it comes to making decisions. 

Relating to Fe, there are some things I do relate to, notably: 

Fe loyalty comes from a place of duty or reciprocation (”I should do this for the sake of maintaining the relationship bond”) and Fi loyalty comes from one’s own conscience (”I should do this because I know in my bones it’s right/moral”). This means that Fe loyalty tends to be somewhat “emotionless” or principle-based, whereas Fi loyalty tends to swell into fullness with inner “gut feeling” as one acts in accordance with one’s own values.

*When making a sacrifice, Fe tends to “calculate” the result of the sacrifice beforehand (not always consciously however)*, whereas Fi tends to sacrifice without thinking much about what will happen next. *Fe tries to accurately read the other person’s emotional state and then has to make a rational decision about whether or not to act, often employing Ti to do a hasty cost-benefit analysis.

*^
I'm the HR Manager for my workplace. Outside my window I heard two of my employees screaming at each other. It sounded like they were about to attack each other. I stood up and walked to the door, but then stopped, because I was like... "well, I don't really want to get knifed rn, do I really want to go out there?" I was just going to go back to my desk and pretend I never heard it. Then another employee approached me all concerned and I was like "...ugh, fml, now I have to do something since it's my job and all."

One thing that makes me relate more to Fi is the need to blame myself for issues that arise. I don't look outwardly or blame others for things, I tend to be very self-critical and very self-blaming. I'm also pretty in touch and focused on my self, although I do see that the lesser developed Fe would be the same... and from what I'm reading, my Fe is sucking super hard and needs development.



Weekend said:


> I don't delve into enneagram nor do I really have a surface understanding or insight to it BUT I still agree that it's personality based so I believe it is quite 'different'.


Definitely different. I can't see how any type could be ruled out as any MBTI type, based on what I see on this website.


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## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

narcissistic said:


> @*Daenerys Targaryen*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True - and actually, my type, 4w3, can be mistaken as 7s. My instinctual stacking, sx/so, is also 7ish. That seems to be an interesting correlation.


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## Endologic (Feb 14, 2015)

narcissistic said:


> @Emologic
> 
> 
> Go read about socionics and your mind will be blown.
> But it seems that you already have if you've decided LII.


Yes, I actually did look at Socionics. It contradicts the deduction foundation of cognitive functions, but I'm not above giving it the benefit of the doubt. I typed myself as LII because that's what correlates to INTP.

(Unlike the Enneagram) I don't even mind discussing it and replying on the forums for it, if that's what you mean.

However, I've come to the conclusion that it was popularized in the Eastern Bloc because it takes the theory and (by stating that all types have all functions) declares everyone as equal and promotes communism.


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## Eset (Jun 7, 2016)

@Emologic



> Yes, I actually did look at Socionics. It contradicts the deduction foundation of cognitive functions, but I'm not above giving it the benefit of the doubt. I typed myself as LII because that's what correlates to INTP.


lmaoooooo...
Suppose that wraps up this argument then.


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