# A Little More Help



## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Great, reading those articles just brought the Se/Ne line closer to Ne again, meaning it's back in the middle. From the apple tree one, I'll put a 1-5 for how well I relate to it:



> Se - You might look at the apple tree and notice the contrast of the ruby red apples and the deep green leaves, the rich brown-gray of the trunk and branches, and how the sunlight plays across the yard. You go to the tree and pick an apple, and bite into it with a crunch, savoring the tree ripened sweetness and the aroma of a really fresh apple. Sitting down on the ground you feel the coolness under you and the warmth of the sun.


4



> Si – You look at the apple tree and immediately recall an image of an apple tree you’ve seen before and you were then become aware of the feel of autumn in the air and remember being in an apple orchard picking apples.


3



> Ne – You might wonder why the former owner of your house planted an apple tree and why this kind of apple tree. Then you might consider why this kind of apple tree grows well in this climate but not in others. Or maybe it occurs to you that your life is like this apple tree in so many ways. Then you might be curious if apples represent the same ideas in other cultures and so on. Or you may even wonder, “What if the apple tree did not exist?”


4



> Ni – If you did not even notice the apple tree this there, but instead go a sense that the orchards around will soon be cut down and replaced with a housing development, you have experienced Ni.


1



> Te – You notice the fruit was starting to fall off the tree and make a mental note to get several containers to put the apples in. You would have a trashcan handy for the rotten ones and a basket for the ripe ones to wash and put on the table. You would also have a plastic pan for the ones that are bruised, but not rotten, to cut up for applesauce.


0... I mean 1. I said 1-5, not 0.



> Ti – You might notice that the leaves are falling off early. You would analyze the situation and try to figure out what is wrong with the tree. You might use the principles of good gardening, or you might reference the scientific principles of plant disease


3-4



> Fe – You might think about removing the tree because of the mess the apples make on the ground, but then remember that your family really likes having that old apple tree around. So you decide not to remove it. Besides you might think, Aunt Mary really likes apple pie made with those apples and make a mental note to bake an apple pie for her. In deciding what to do with the tree, the likes and dislikes of others are considered and adjusted to.


2



> Fi – You might reflect on how much you really like that tree and the apples it yields. You might even consider the importance of having a fruit tree for the children to learn from.


3

Regarding the Se and Ne one, I have done both of those kinds of things equally as many times throughout my life. It depends on my mood and situation, but there definitely is not a clear leaning toward one or the other.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

*double post*


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> Thanks. I'll read those later. You mention Lenore. I used to read her stuff until her area on greenlightwiki seemed to have gone down.


You should pick up her book. It's a really good read. 



> One thing I seem to really disagree with other ISTPs on is that they seem to not want to talk a lot or share their thoughts and feelings and also don't seem to care to listen to other people a lot. Like even when you said that when your friend said they hated the guy and it took you a while to finally care enough to ask. I'd be immediately curious if someone said that to me. I'd want to know why. I'd want to know what they did to make the person hate them. I don't know if it's because I care about their feelings or if I'm just curious or just want to talk or if it's because it would take a lot for me to hate someone so I'm curious about what this person could have done, or if it's just because I like listening to gossip. I love gossip, especially when someone's telling it to me. The whole time I feel good because the more bad things the person they are complaining about did, the bigger gap there is between me and them in the list of things we did wrong, and the better I am by comparison.
> 
> And as you can tell, I thoroughly enjoy talking about my thoughts and feelings. Perhaps it's my way of making an impact.
> 
> But besides the asking or not asking part, I'd also take it as she said it and then figure he must have done something mean or rude on a previous occasion. Ne would really make an assumption like hating someone she just looked at? Wouldn't that be Fi making an unhealthy decision based on Ne's information? I usually look at someone for the first time and determine a bunch of stuff about them, but I know my assumptions are most likely subjective and I try to keep them at bay because of it. I really give people the benefit of the doubt a lot. Even if everything is telling me they are a total jerk once I talk to them, a little part of me always tells me that I could just be misunderstanding. I could be wrong. I don't know anything for certain. I don't know what's in their head. What I see as asshole behavior could just be their defensive stance because they are misunderstanding me and thinking I'm being a something their environment growing up has taught them is something negative. I take the most likely approach, but I'm always open to something new. There are very few things I know for an absolute certainty.


The thing is, it's not that I don't talk a lot, or share my thoughts and feelings with others. I just don't do it with everybody, and I don't do it all the time (especially with my feelings). I need to be really comfortable with somebody to open up like that. But once I get to know someone, I can talk a lot. I love telling stories, and listening to them too. And I listen to people. 

And it 's not I wasn't curious. I am a very curious person. Now that I think about it again, I think I did ask why she hated him, and she would always answer very vaguely with things like "oh he didn't hold the door open for me" and "he has a douche bag haircut." My assumption was that she knew him from before that class we had, which something happened and these things that she mentioned just added to the past. But what was crazy about it is that she didn't even know him. I was quite flabbergasted at this. I too have first impressions about people, but like you, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, until all the "evidence" is in. So I don't really understand how a person can decide that they hate someone based off of these vague impressions. And you could be completely right that it was Fi making an unhealthy decision, but I'm not really sure what judging functions she uses. She's not the most healthy example of the functions to give, but I just gave it to illustrate how Ne can be used to make these wrong assumptions.

But something about your posts has made me think of something. If you don't relate to ISTPs not wanting to talk about their feelings, you must not relate to INTPs in the same way. Our inferior function is Fe, that's our Achilles' heel. And talking about feelings is tied up in this. So if you don't have the same problems with Fe as a Ti-dom does, you might not be IxTP. One way to help differentiate how and to what extent you use the functions is to look at the functions from bottom-up, basically looking for your inferior rather than your auxiliary or dominant. 

Check out these articles and tell me which one describes you more:
http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/76805-recognizing-inferior-function-entp.html
http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/76785-recognizing-inferior-function-istp.html


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

madhatter said:


> Check out these articles and tell me which one describes you more:
> http://personalitycafe.com/entp-articles/76805-recognizing-inferior-function-entp.html
> http://personalitycafe.com/istp-articles/76785-recognizing-inferior-function-istp.html


lol, I will. I already had the ENTP one of those open in another tab because MadHattress linked me to it. I might just be weird, though, because both my INFJ ex-girlfriend and ISFJ wife have commented on how unfair it is that I can so easily put my feelings into words when they get frustrated just trying to explain theirs semi-coherently. Could be wrong on their type, though, since theirs were determined by an online test.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Inguz said:


>


Watching the video, it is fairly clear you are ENTP. Do you know any other ENTP in real life whom you can identify with?


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Sparky said:


> Watching the video, it is fairly clear you are *ENTP*. Do you know any other ENTP in real life whom you can identify with?












Sorry, I'm not making fun of anything. It's just that the person you quoted cited that same video as a very strong example of Se while ENTP is Ne dominant. The Picard picture is at the fact that the same behavior can so easily be misinterpreted. And unfortunately I don't know any ENTPs that I know of. There's only a few people I know in real life that I can be semi-certain of their type, and even those have a good chance of being wrong. But I thank you for your input and would like to hear more from you.

That reminds me. I had this stupid exchange with my wife last night. Ugh.

So we were discussing how to get our daughter to get ready for bed faster. She's 7 and I'm pretty sure she's ExxP, probably ENxP. My wife being ISFJ practically pulls her hair out every night over the fact that our daughter not only constantly forgets what she needs to do (my wife is convinced this is an act), but that it also takes her so long to do them once she's told. I finally stepped in and observed her getting ready to find the major delays and slowdowns and when I reported the largest areas of wasted time to my wife, she kept telling me how it doesn't matter, she just needs to do it. Huh? Um, that's not even something that's in question. I'm explaining what things I saw that took so long so we can work on those areas. She says it doesn't matter what the excuses are, she still needs to do them in a timely manner. WTF, has she never solved a problem in her life? Then she got too upset to continue. I suspected she was probably too upset about our daughter taking so long and it wasn't just at me.

Later on she calmed down and asked me if I was okay because I looked upset. I said that I was thinking and trying to figure the situation out myself because that's the next best thing. I knew that would make her feel bad, but I didn't care at that point. She wrote up a list of all the things our daughter needs to do each night and then gave it to me, saying "I don't know how long each of these will take her to do, but here's the list." The first item was to clean her room.

*Me:* Well, cleaning her room will depend on how messy our son makes it.
*Her:* No, it doesn't matter how messy he makes it. That's something I've given her to do every day. There's no excuses.
*Me:* No, I mean if he takes every toy out of the toybox--
*Her:* It doesn't matter. She still needs to clean it. That's one of her every day things she needs to do.
*Me:* I know. I'm saying that it will take her longer to do it if it's really messy.
*Her:* It doesn't matter how messy it is or how long it takes her! She needs to do it every day no matter what!
*Me:* I'm not disputing that. I'm saying it will take longer or shorter depending on how messy it is. Of course she still needs to do it.
*Her:* Why does it matter how long it takes?
*Me:* You said you didn't know how long each one will take when you handed it to me, so I said that this one will depend on how messy it is.
*Her:* Oh. Okay.
*Me:* (looks down the list, sees shower, then brush teeth, then wash face) Wash face? Wouldn't her face already be clean after a shower?
*Her:* Not after she brushes her teeth. She gets toothpaste on it.
*Me:* She doesn't wipe it off afterward? I mean, she's looking in the mirror.
*Her:* No, she doesn't. I have to tell her every time.
*Me:* Does she spit the toothpaste out or keep it in her mouth as well?
*Her:* Yes, she spits it out. She just doesn't wash her face off.
*Me:* Isn't that the same type of thing?
*Her:* She just needs to wash her face. Why are we arguing about this? Why are you making excuses for her?
*Me:* ...Um... Is that really what you think I'm doing? Making excuses for her?
*Her:* Yes, that's what it sounds like!
*Me:* I can assure you I'm not making excuses for her. Not even close.
*Her:* Well, you're critiquing.
*Me:* Yeah, I'm critiquing her.
*Her:* And me.
*Me:* How am I critiquing you?
*Her:* By saying I shouldn't put that on the list, but I'm saying it needs to be on there because she won't do it otherwise!
*Me:* Wha...? Really? I... uh... I really don't understand how your mind works, I'm sorry.

(at this point she got up and left the room)

Later on I told her that her list was good and it's good she included "wash face" on it, I was just completely surprised and found it hard to believe that she needed to be told that. Not that I didn't believe her, just that it's hard to believe that it's true. I was criticizing the fact that including it on the list was even necessary, but that doesn't change the fact that it is. I was agreeing with her about how stupid it is that she doesn't do it on her own. Whether I got through or not, it didn't seem to make her feel better. Once she gets upset, nothing from me will make her feel better, including hugs.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> Sorry, I'm not making fun of anything. It's just that the person you quoted cited that same video as a very strong example of Se while ENTP is Ne dominant. The Picard picture is at the fact that the same behavior can so easily be misinterpreted. And unfortunately I don't know any ENTPs that I know of. There's only a few people I know in real life that I can be semi-certain of their type, and even those have a good chance of being wrong. But I thank you for your input and would like to hear more from you.
> 
> That reminds me. I had this stupid exchange with my wife last night. Ugh.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you use Ti, given this situation. You were making an impersonal analysis of the situation, and your wife took it as a personal critique. It happens to me often. I don't mean to be critical of people, it's just my natural state to analyze in that fashion. So I believe Ti is either dominant or auxiliary for you. As for Se and Ne, I'm still stumped by you. :/ I was thinking given that you related to Ni the least, you might be Se dominant. But there's was an Ni inferior article! LiquidLight hasn't gotten to that yet.  But I'm interested in hearing your feedback on the inferior function articles.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

madhatter said:


> As for Se and Ne, I'm still stumped by you. :/


This seems to be a common trend. As much as I like being unique, it's starting to get in the way of this situation.



> I was thinking given that you related to Ni the least, you might be Se dominant... But I'm interested in hearing your feedback on the inferior function articles.


Well, related to Ni the least for that one example. I also spent a good amount of time in the INTJ forum and talked at length to 2 members there. They said it was very clear I preferred Ti over Te and that I didn't use Ni very much if at all. They both thought Ne was closer because I was still able to pick up on their humor, though my Fe, even the little I have, caused conflict. But having a lower developed Ni would also be able to pick up on their humor as well, and I relate to you regarding making assumptions that the guy must have been rude to your friend. There's something else I found:



> *Se-Ni:* sees a world in great detail. This function pairing uses sensing freely without limitation. With Se, one recognizes that there is a vast amount of concrete sensory data available and because of that you have to pay attention to the finer details of what each piece of information means. What is it telling you? What does it want? What am I supposed to do with this information?
> 
> Se dominants look at the information, and finds the most obvious gut felt answer and runs with that answer at face value. In its rawest/unbalanced form Se does what its told, and believes the conclusions it has come up with. Of course you can probably see why this is a bad thing. To balance out this world view, Ni has to come into play
> 
> ...


At first I related to the Se-Ni one a lot more, but then I read them again and wasn't so sure. I mean, when I really look at them, they are different scenarios. I mean sure, Se-Ni would see the sign as one and Ne-Si the other, but that still doesn't tell me how *I* would see the sign. (I saw the sign, and it opened up my eyes, I saw the sign). So the best I can do is put myself in both situations.

I wake up in a building with rooms and doors. I hate alcohol, so we'll say ice cream. I come upon a door with a sign that says “Free ice cream inside come inside now to have the time of your life, fun all day long at no cost!” I'd be like "Uh... yeah... I'm not so sure about that." I love ice cream and all, but I don't really want some right now. I can have some anytime I want. I don't know if I'm in danger or this is a test or game someone is putting me through. This sign just points more to the idea that it is. What if there is a time limit to get out of here? I'm really curious about what is behind it, so I'm tempted to open it a little and peek inside. There might be someone behind it who can tell me what's going on. But I think I need more information so I can consider all my options. Any wrong move and I could die. I'd then go about looking at all the doors to see what else there was. If I found no way out and all the other doors were unlabeled, I'd probably go back to the door with the sign and proceed cautiously.

I'd proceed the same way if it only said "Enter", but I'd be less suspicious of it because it looks like a sign that was just part of the building rather than one someone put specifically for this game or test. It would probably lead to where I need to go, but I'd still be cautious. But the Si saying "Why would you open up more doors when what you know is that opening doors lead you here in the first place" stood out. Is that true? Did opening doors really lead me here in the first place? That would be useful information to know in the Se-Ni example. I sure as hell would consider that if I knew that. That makes where I'm at much less of a mystery. If I know what led me here, I can remember what door I opened and how I got to that door and it would at least put everything in context and aid me in figuring out who is behind this and what is probably needed to get out.

So does that mean I use both Ne-Si and Se-Ni, or were those just too narrow of examples?

And lastly, I've read about as much as I can read of the ENTP Inferior Function article. The only thing I related to was the part about being uncertain about facts I know if other people confidently say I'm wrong. I'm reading the ISTP one now.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Okay, definitely closer to the inferior function of IxTP than ENxP. I think I just realize that no one can actually do me any harm in knowing my feelings, so I don't have any problem in talking about them unless I know that it would hurt a situation I'm in. I have another lengthy story in another forum that may or may not shed some light into my thought processes. It's on another personality forum, though, so I can't link to it and I don't really want to post it all in here unless it would be well received with it's length.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> This seems to be a common trend. As much as I like being unique, it's starting to get in the way of this situation.
> 
> Well, related to Ni the least for that one example. I also spent a good amount of time in the INTJ forum and talked at length to 2 members there. They said it was very clear I preferred Ti over Te and that I didn't use Ni very much if at all. They both thought Ne was closer because I was still able to pick up on their humor, though my Fe, even the little I have, caused conflict. But having a lower developed Ni would also be able to pick up on their humor as well, and I relate to you regarding making assumptions that the guy must have been rude to your friend. There's something else I found:
> 
> ...


That's good information for the function pairs. I relate to Se-Ni (obviously!). What I think part of the problem is, is that you're over-analyzing it and second-guessing yourself. I generally like going off my first impressions of it before I have a chance to over-analyze it. (I do this all the time.) Now I don't know whether you're ISTP-over-analyzing or INTP-over-analyzing (because both types tend to do it)...at this moment, you might want to take a step back, take a break, and come back to it a bit later with fresh eyes. Like I said earlier, you're pretty settled on IxTP, and that's a big step.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

madhatter said:


> ...at this moment, you might want to take a step back, take a break, and come back to it a bit later with fresh eyes.


¬_¬ you're just getting overwhelmed and _you_ need a break. 

But seriously, I've taken probably 3-4 multi-month breaks and it hasn't helped. My problem is that no matter how good Ne or Se looks, I keep finding conflicting information. I know I won't find 100% of the things I find point to one or the other, but when a path I go down looks to give me some certainty about one over the other, I want to follow that path, but just end up finding another example of why I'm not that type. I'm even having trouble determining if I'm Chart-the-Course or Behind-the-Scenes.


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

@Elaminopy - You are suffering from over-analyzing. I agree that you're IxTP, by the way. You are an obvious Ti user. I honestly have no idea whatsoever if this helps, but somebody had an interesting post fairly recently that mentioned a good difference between Sensing versus Intuition in general. It focused on Si versus Ni, but it was true for Ne versus Se as well. Here's the link: 

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/95707-sensing-verus-intuition-my-theory.html

Another suggestion for you would be to not over think this. Go with what you initially feel fits best. The one you were initially drawn to. Usually, that's the most accurate thing. 

I applaud you, by the way, for having done lots of homework and reading up on cognitive functions.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> ¬_¬ you're just getting overwhelmed and _you_ need a break.


Ha! No. That's the advice I usually give to people who are going cross-eyed trying to find their type.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah, I need to work on my card game some more anyway. I'm not just trying to figure out type anyway. I'm also working on the fine details of my card game, coming up with a board game idea, playing Sudoku on extreme on the toilet, playing Catan: Cities and Knights regularly, and reading cracked.com articles each day. But yeah, I'll try to slow down on my type thing because I do seem to be over-analyzing.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> Yeah, I need to work on my card game some more anyway. I'm not just trying to figure out type anyway. I'm also working on the fine details of my card game, coming up with a board game idea, playing Sudoku on extreme on the toilet, playing Catan: Cities and Knights regularly, and reading cracked.com articles each day. But yeah, I'll try to slow down on my type thing because I do seem to be *over-analyzing*.


The curse of being a Ti-dominant!


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

madhatter said:


> The curse of being a Ti-dominant!


I witness this curse every day... I have mentioned my INTP brother. Lol. XD I've actually seen him go completely in circles. If he wanted to, he could over analyze in such a way that he ends up at the exact opposite conclusion he really ought to have gotten to.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Elaminopy said:


> Sorry, I'm not making fun of anything. It's just that the person you quoted cited that same video as a very strong example of Se while ENTP is Ne dominant. The Picard picture is at the fact that the same behavior can so easily be misinterpreted. And unfortunately I don't know any ENTPs that I know of. There's only a few people I know in real life that I can be semi-certain of their type, and even those have a good chance of being wrong. But I thank you for your input and would like to hear more from you.
> 
> That reminds me. I had this stupid exchange with my wife last night. Ugh.
> 
> ...


That is very interesting, because my cousin is an ENFP, and her father is ISFJ while her mother is ENTP, so could your daughter be ENFP as well?

Following a detailed list of tasks step-by-step might be a hallmark of SJ, because while an intuitive seeks more independence and fosters greater autonomy, an SJ prefers order and obedience to rules.

Reading the dialogue, you appear to have dominant Ne, or intuition, while Ti-Fe is also apparent, thus supporting the guess for ENTP.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

Sparky said:


> That is very interesting, because my cousin is an ENFP, and her father is ISFJ while her mother is ENTP, so could your daughter be ENFP as well?
> 
> Following a detailed list of tasks step-by-step might be a hallmark of SJ, because while an intuitive seeks more independence and fosters greater autonomy, an SJ prefers order and obedience to rules.
> 
> Reading the dialogue, you appear to have dominant Ne, or intuition, while Ti-Fe is also apparent, thus supporting the guess for ENTP.


Thanks, but I related much more to the difficulties people with inferior Fe have than those with inferior Si.

In cases like this where there's difficulty telling between 2 things, I try to find some advantage one has over the other. That's when I look for a general opinion and I want to go back through all the posts that anyone has tried to type me and tally up the number of times Se and Ne have been cited. But that's putting equal weight on everyone's conclusion when some might know next to nothing of how each one really is.

Also, on a semi unrelated note, there seems to be bias for certain functions. Some want to be T over F and some want to be N over S and vice versa because of whatever ideas they have formed. T is thought of as cold, F is weak, N is absent-minded, and S is dense. Depending on which you'd rather be, it makes you lean toward that one. But T isn't cold because it has F. F isn't weak because it has T, etc. And since Ti *always* comes with Fe, Ni *always* comes with Se, etc. with no exceptions, is it practical or even beneficial to talk about them separately? Why not just consider each function as Se-Ni, Ne-Si, Fe-Ti, Te-Fi? 4 functions. I know we separate them to determine which half is more prominent, but that should be left until after the 2 functions are determined, with no emphasis on which half of each function is stronger. "You say you're more of a thinker than a feeler because you're a guy and crying is weak? You weren't manly enough to earn your T in your code and now everyone will make fun of you if you? Great, but that's not what we're trying to determine. Being a thinker is irrelevant right now. We just want to find out if your behavior and thoughts follow those of Fe-Ti or Te-Fi, so read the description of each and see if one rings truer to you." The descriptions should describe it as though Fe-Ti, etc. is one function. One way of making decisions. Once the 2 functions can be determined (Fe-Ti and Se-Ni), that only leaves you with INFJ, ENFJ, ISTP, and ESTP. Those seem vastly different with our current 4-letter code and I'm sure have vastly different stereotypes, certainly different enough to where it would be a surprise to many to find they use all the same functions. Then all that's left is fine-tuning which half of the 2 functions is stronger for you.

I realize this is similar to the Keirsey temperaments, but it groups different types together. NFs, NTs, SJs, and SPs. Then there's the interaction style that group still others together: INFJ, ISTJ, INTJ, and ISTP are together, so that's closer to my idea, but still different.

Opinions?


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

What are the difficulties that people with inferior Fe (INTP and ISTP) have? How is that different from inferior Si?


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

There are long articles that were posted earlier that explain them, but what stood out to me was mainly saying something in the wrong way and hurting someone's feelings vs being uncertain of the accuracy about facts you know.


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## Elaminopy (Jun 29, 2011)

It seems to me as though Ne is Se+Ni. Your eyes transmit what they see to Se. Se just passes it along to Ni without changing it at all. It's unfiltered. "There's a mass of bright yellow with really bright white areas moving along some grey." Ni then compares it to other things Se has given it in the past and links things together into something more manageable and compatible with the other functions. "That mass of yellow is confined to a specific shape that follows the pattern of what I recognize as a car. The really bright white means it is sunny and is reflecting off the car. It also means it's relatively clean, likely taken care of well. It's also moving at a rate that seems fast for this street. I wonder if they'll get caught." Some Judging is probably involved in there as well.

But how I understand Ne, it takes what the eyes delivered to it and since the eyes were unfiltered, Ne receives it unfiltered. It then does like Ni and finds patterns and links things together, but it doesn't have access to the memories like Ni, so it only finds patterns between the things the eyes are currently seeing. So Ne itself seems superior to Se, since it is all of Se with the addition of a demo version of Ni. It then gives it to Si and it compares it to other patterns and situations Ne has given it in the past.

So really, the only difference I can see is that Ne-Si finds present patterns and then compares them to past patterns, whereas Se-Ni compares present single objects and then finds patterns between them and past single objects.


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## Lunarprox (Feb 16, 2012)

Inguz said:


> Don't let typists troll you, you're not Ne. If you want I can dig you up with some weed.


Please, do so.


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