# your friendly neighborhood INxx.. help please???



## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

yeah, i agree with the Ti that Jung mentioned, INFP and Ti don't get along! like say what???? oh keep that away from me, plz!!! like help, get that Ti away from me!!!! lol  

as an INFJ you will not much understand the description of Si, here is one version of the description, do you understand what it means, like really understand?

Si - INTROVERTED SENSING
Reviewing and recalling past experiences and seeking detailed data.
Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

Aha!!! That... makes no sense to me  I mean I can imagine how that would work but I probably just don't pay attention. 

Granted maybe my INTPs are on the F/T border-, but what I love Ti or maybe just the INTPs I've come across, is they hate social games and have so much integrity. I thought that was a Ti thing-- striving for logical consistency.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

lololol said:


> Aha!!! That... makes no sense to me  I mean I can imagine how that would work but I probably just don't pay attention.
> 
> Granted maybe my INTPs are on the F/T border-, but what I love Ti or maybe just the INTPs I've come across, is they hate social games and have so much integrity. I thought that was a Ti thing-- striving for logical consistency.


Ti is their dom, Ti is INFJ territary, much less than dom, nowhere near the amount in INTP, plus your Ni is dom, you dont' understand Si, which means Se is your inferior, Ni Fe Ti Se INFJ, for an INTJ which is what i was thinking at the start also when i first read your post, is Ni Te Fi Se, but you seem too much into feeling for an INTJ?

Here is a link to the eruption of inferior function of Se in INFJ and INTJ when under stress... see how you relate to it:
http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/76896-recognizing-inferior-function-intj.html


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

Oh, that's interesting. Well, I read the whole thing- skimmed parts of it- and I could not relate much to the Se either. 

I am clumsy and don't pay attention to tangible things like food or scenery that much. But obviously, the part about indulging under stress did make sense-- silly TV shows, Chinese food, you name it. So yeah, Se- a bit!

I guess I'm pretty sure now of being an INFP or an INFJ-- I like what you did there with the functions Ni, Fe, Ti, and Se. I'll take another cog. function test after this. 

Again, for me the indecision comes down to me definitely liking Fi more than Fe. 

That's the major difference I see between me and my INFJ mom. She has very low Fi. She is very stereotypically concerned with others' feelings (aka more "mom-like".. sorry!) compared to my dad, who processes things more through his own heartstrings. Like to give an example, when we (me and my siblings) got in trouble when we were kids, she would always say, "well, it never hurts to follow the rules." and he would say more like "whaaat those rules are silly! do what you think is right! that's all you can do in this life." I see that as a Fe vs. Fi clash. 

I see it all the time in INFPs, others being finding their moral worldview too idealistic or hard to understand due to their having high Fi. I can so relate to that!!!! :crazy:


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

ok, just took the cognitive functions test again! this was courtesy of http://www.keys2cognition.com/explore.htm

extraverted Sensing (Se) ************ (12.2)
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************* (19.7)
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ***************************************** (42)
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *************************************** (39.7)
extraverted Thinking (Te) ****************************** (30.7)
ntroverted Thinking (Ti) ************************** (26.7)
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ******************************** (32.7)
introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************************ (36.5)


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

lololol said:


> ok, just took the cognitive functions test again! this was courtesy of Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes
> 
> extraverted Sensing (Se) ************ (12.2)
> introverted Sensing (Si) ******************* (19.7)
> ...


well, that test shows ENFP Ne Fi Te Si

but the Ne and Ni are so close it could be either way, those tests are never 100% accurate, questions being too vague or too general, but they do help most times to help narrow it down to type the person...

So the Ne and Ni are close
the Te and Ti are close
Fe and Fi are close

Si and Se are further apart, and definately those are in last place

So you are either Si or Se inferior

INFP is Te inferior, you are not inferior in Te, you could not be an INFP

So that brings it down to INFJ, INTJ which are both Se inferior (devilish function Si)
or ENFP, ENTP which are both Si inferior (devilish function Se)

have you looked at ENFP yet?

and also INFJ's do have their own ideal values, but it's more in a group related thing, alot of times it seems people are confusing Fi with Fe and Fe with Fi when trying to figure out their type...


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

> Maybe you didn't explain it as well as you thought.


Yeah, I knew that it would require a ridiculously long paragraph to explain it like liquidlight posted. I just didn't feel like posting that long of a passage.


> well, that test shows ENFP Ne Fi Te Si
> 
> but the Ne and Ni are so close it could be either way, those tests are never 100% accurate, questions being too vague or too general, but they do help most times to help narrow it down to type the person...
> 
> ...


Well, the fact that she says that she's an introvert, tested so high for Ne, and couldn't relate to Si leads me to believe that she is an INFP.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

The Great One said:


> Yeah, I knew that it would require a ridiculously long paragraph to explain it like liquidlight posted. I just didn't feel like posting that long of a passage.
> 
> 
> Well, the fact that she says that she's an introvert, tested so high for Ne, and couldn't relate to Si leads me to believe that she is an INFP.


ENFP's can be introverted at times, but it can't be INFP by saying not relating to Si, Si is our territary, i use my Si, i use Ne and Fi more but i do use Si, Te is less and Ti is almost not existing in INFP's. ~Just food for thought~


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

Dreamer777 said:


> ENFP's can be introverted at times, but it can't be INFP by saying not relating to Si, Si is our territary, i use my Si, i use Ne and Fi more but i do use Si, Te is less and Ti is almost not existing in INFP's. ~Just food for thought~


She just says that she's an introvert. That's what leads me to believe that she is most likely an INFP. I mean, yes, Big Five and MBTI extroversion do not "always" correlate, but most of the time they do. The only type that I have seen that would commonly test as an introvert on a Big Five test, and an extrovert in the MBTI is the ENTP.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

The Great One:2181335 said:


> Dreamer777 said:
> 
> 
> > ENFP's can be introverted at times, but it can't be INFP by saying not relating to Si, Si is our territary, i use my Si, i use Ne and Fi more but i do use Si, Te is less and Ti is almost not existing in INFP's. ~Just food for thought~
> ...


But Big 5 tests only test extraversion on a sliding scale. There is no introversion just different levels of extraversion. The OPs CF test clearly show her with an intuition preference with sensing being so low and MBTI extraversion is inconsistent within itself. On one hand it only relates to the direction of cognitive energy, but on the other hand it tests for behaviors it associates with I and E so this confuses matters. Many functional extraverts are behaviorally introverted and because MBTI tests for both this confuses many people to think they are Is when they are really just shy Es.


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## The Great One (Apr 19, 2010)

LiquidLight said:


> But Big 5 tests only test extraversion on a sliding scale. There is no introversion just different levels of extraversion. The OPs CF test clearly show her with an intuition preference with sensing being so low and MBTI extraversion is inconsistent within itself. On one hand it only relates to the direction of cognitive energy, but on the other hand it tests for behaviors it associates with I and E so this confuses matters. Many functional extraverts are behaviorally introverted and because MBTI tests for both this confuses many people to think they are Is when they are really just shy Es.


I understand that. What I am saying is that most "Big Five" Introverts will test as an introvert on MBTI and Vice Versa. She could be an extrovert, but not likely.


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

Yeah, I personally think I'm an INFP with very high Ni. Briggs Myers tests give me INFJ but if you slightly scale down how high the Ne is on that cognitive function test (and who knows, maybe I was in a good mood that day and feeling extra-extra Ne-ful!) then the cognitive function profile fits INFP to a t. I think that the high extraverted score could be due to working on something creative that day or just being in the "zone." 

To comment on the big 5 discussion, I'm not that familiar with the overlap between the two theories, but I'm an introvert in the Big 5 sense, I'm sure of it. For example, I would hate to go across country with a tour group but would love to do it alone. I think that would be lonely for an extravert. Things like that make me sure that I'm an I.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

lololol said:


> Yeah, I personally think I'm an INFP with very high Ni. Briggs Myers tests give me INFJ but if you slightly scale down how high the Ne is on that cognitive function test (and who knows, maybe I was in a good mood that day and feeling extra-extra Ne-ful!) then the cognitive function profile fits INFP to a t. I think that the high extraverted score could be due to working on something creative that day or just being in the "zone."
> 
> To comment on the big 5 discussion, I'm not that familiar with the overlap between the two theories, but I'm an introvert in the Big 5 sense, I'm sure of it. For example, I would hate to go across country with a tour group but would love to do it alone. I think that would be lonely for an extravert. Things like that make me sure that I'm an I.


Actually what you describe points more to a Se preference (somewhere) not really Ne. 

For one, MBTI does not allow for an INFP to have Ni at all (Beebe's theory sort of does and Jung's theory does, but you wouldn't be an INFP in Jung's theory).

The thing about touring the country alone, may not necessarily point to introversion (in fact it probably doesn't). This is probably Se (maybe Ne, but because we're not dealing with ideation but rather the actual world as it exists it falls more to sensing). Ne generally creates ideas around the physical world (so a Ne dom could have the same type of exploratory experience around one simple idea as a Se-type has exploring the world). 

What would point to introversion is the perspective you were using along with your exploring (so for example an ISTP might want to go snowboarding or snowboarding, hiking, rockclimbing or some other solitary activity that is rooted in the physical world -- this would be their Ti coupled with Se, not Ne). 

Long story short perhaps you might be an ISFP (whose Sensing and Intuition are relatively undifferentiated, which accounts for the behavior that seems to correlate with both Ni and Ne).


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

I would be tempted to agree if there were any evidence, but neither the Briggs Myers nor the cognitive function quizzes really give much support that I use Se much- it's my last preference! 

Also, for travelling the country, I agree that it is a Se-rich activity but why can't travel feed N? I can't imagine many N doms who hate travel on principle. Being in transit is like being in a second home for people who like learning new ideas and ways of doing things. Do you understand what I mean by this?


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

I wasn't insinuating that Se was your dominant preference, just that you had some penchant for it somewhere even in the inferior like INFJ. If you have strong Ni then you will also have Se (they come as a pair -- this is why someone doesn't just have Ni out of the pattern in MBTI). 

So if sensing is your least preferred conscious function, then it's probably your inferior function (making you either a Ne or Ni-dominant, INFJ, INTJ, ENFP, ENTP).


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

Oh I see! Yeah, that makes sense- and I guess is why the test said "INFP.. if not, consider ENFP or INTJ..." I was like-- huh, what on earth would make INTJ a third possible backup to ENFP, those types are so different..... XD

I don't think there's a clear answer for what fits other than maybe getting to know some other INFPs and INFJs and checking out what fits closer to home. I dearly love my Fi and don't want to give up the potential of being an INFP. After going to a work party this week, I realized that while I test INFJ, the J is usually something I do for the benefit of other people in my life, helping them get organized and knowing what to expect. Professionally it fits too as my company uses the MBTI and specifically said they needed someone with a strong TJ preference in my role. But I would love to just be a freely roaming Fi being sometimes.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

lololol said:


> Oh I see! Yeah, that makes sense- and I guess is why the test said "INFP.. if not, consider ENFP or INTJ..." I was like-- huh, what on earth would make INTJ a third possible backup to ENFP, those types are so different..... XD
> 
> I don't think there's a clear answer for what fits other than maybe getting to know some other INFPs and INFJs and checking out what fits closer to home. I dearly love my Fi and don't want to give up the potential of being an INFP. After going to a work party this week, I realized that while I test INFJ, the J is usually something I do for the benefit of other people in my life, helping them get organized and knowing what to expect. Professionally it fits too as my company uses the MBTI and specifically said they needed someone with a strong TJ preference in my role. But I would love to just be a freely roaming Fi being sometimes.


Well actually what you are describing is actually strong Fe. Anytime you are bringing yourself into alignment with the external world that is extraversion. (What you think is J is actually Te). What screws everyone up is they think Fi means "my values" but the reality is everyone perceives the values they hold as "their values." Fe types don't recognize that their value system might be largely based on an appeal to the outside world, they just don't see it. If you ask a Fe type they will tell you "I stick to _my_ values," just the same as a Fi-type, which is what leads to so much confusion and mistypes, because many of these online questionnaires, tests, etc are not written with that in mind. Very few people actually realize they are conforming to a group ideal (clearly indicated in American society where individualism is preached as the ideal - but rarely practiced. Just try showing up to work or school naked one day and see what happens). 

See again the J/P is all messy in MBTI because it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense (especially regarding introverts). INFJ is really a P because their dominant function is Intuition, a perception function, so MBTI gets that backward by only pointing to the extraverted functions (INFJ gets the J because of Fe - however MBTI tests often only describe J as Te or closure seeking). So what happens is you get closure seeking INFs who are really Fi-doms (but their Inferior Te is influential) and they erroneously test as INFJs (because J means closure seeking) even though its impossible functionally for an a person with a Fi-Ne-Si-Te preference to be an INFJ. This is one of the places where the MBTI dichotomy (really the way in which it tests) falls apart because even if an INFJ, for instance, has P-ish behavior, they are still an INFJ by functions (even though an MBTI test they might score as INFPs which is ridiculous because INFJs do not have Fi or any other function in common with INFP and couldn't possibly be INFPs -- they're just open-ended INFJs thats all).


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## lololol (Feb 22, 2012)

Yeah... if I think I understand what you're saying, I agree- there's a sort of disconnect between the questions designed to gauge Fe and Te in the cognitive function tests and the questions designed to measure the "J/P" dichotomy in the MBTI that raises questions for me as well. Planning actions ahead of time, creating schedules, and putting things in order are all stereotypically "J" traits, which are the things I've had to develop at this job. However, that doesn't necessarily correspond to Te: "applying leverage to solve problems impersonally" and "measuring achievements with points" being two random questions I remember from the cognitive functions test that have nothing to do with being orderly. Measuring achievements in points makes no sense if the achievement is something wicked, stupid, or unfair. 

The connection between Fe and J is much more abstract for me, and I think you pointed that out as well. I'm not a strong "J" and not a strong "Fe," but I think a lot of INFJs experience neither having an overwhelming amount of Fe, NOR being tidy tidy tidy. The connection there is a bit hard to grasp and I would love to get a clearer sense of how Fe and J are related. In my negative experiences with ESFJs, Fe and J are definitely related in that Fe is explicitly used to judge people for diverging from the "norm." The individual emotional experience is closely tied to this judgment for Fe-dom types, from what I gather. My grandmother is an ESFJ and while she extraverts feeling, she feels most comfortable when things go according the social plan. I am not sure if this "feeling" is actually Fi, as you mentioned, though. For me, Fi is not just a sense of personal well being but a way of evaluating "fairness" "goodness" and "fit" independently of Fe.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> Measuring achievements in points makes no sense if the achievement is something wicked, stupid, or unfair.


Not to a Te-dom. In fact the strong Thinking type would roll their eyes at taking something like human fairness into consideration usually from the standpoint of "we can't accomodate everyone therefore we must have objective rules." 

It should be said that Te-doms do value fairness, but more of a conceptual fairness in the form of say numerical equity (everyone gets the same fair share - but note this is removing the individual human component to the equation) or in an egocentric sense it can manifest as "I did my part, you do yours." Both of these though point at a strong Te-oriented mindset, where the more humane considerations are downplayed in favor of more cold technical considerations. 

Fe and J aren't really related at least not in the commonly believed sense. The J loosely points to "likes things decided" (ostensibly by others). But again its a dubious connection to make because why can't, say for example, an ENFP can not or will not have situations where they like things decided. They do, after all, have a preference for Te. In terms of keeping a room clean or messy, or making lists, that is generally Te (provided we're talking about the functional applications of this and not just something you've been socialized to do). So those questions about J and Te on that tests are asking the same thing (which again is where mistypes come from). A Fe type might keep the house neat and the bills paid, to avoid looking bad to others (sometimes), but I think more often since Feeling in general is the antithesis to the rigidity and dispassion of Thinking, what we think of as P (or living in the moment) refers more to Feeling. (We can clearly see this if we apply it to real life. The Thinking type does their homework because it's required. The Feeling type, if they don't do their homework, MBTI would see this as P, but in fact, the Feeling type would probably just say "something more important came up," - value judgment - or "I didn't FEEL like doing it." This really highlights the difference between dominant thinking and feeling and shows that the J/P dichotomy as commonly conceived is somewhat meaningless). 



> Fe and J are definitely related in that Fe is explicitly used to judge people for diverging from the "norm."


Te does this too. Just try to get into a philosophical argument with a Te-type for which there is no common basis or empirical proof.



> Fi is not just a sense of personal well being but a way of evaluating "fairness" "goodness" and "fit"


This is the definition of Feeling in general. So the question becomes by what standard is measured? An objective, external ones (BMWs are nice cars because all the magazines say so) or an internal one (BMWs are nice cars because they represent something personal to me that only I can tap into and can't be easily explained). This is why to Fi-types, Fe is seen as superficial. ESFJs aren't the only people who judge people. Everyone does this to some degree and actually ESFJs are probably less negatively judge-y overall (especially if harmony is desired) than types with Inferior Feeling like INTPs who can be like a bad caricature of Fe-doms when their Inferior Fe roars up. Fe types in general will probably adhere outwardly to a social plan (even INTPs) but that may not be reflected in their inner lives (in fact it really wouldn't be at all).


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## Prion Indigo (Jan 3, 2012)

lololol said:


> I have no idea what my MBTI type is. :crying:
> 
> Believe me it is not for lack of trying!
> 
> ...



My dear, you are purple.


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