# Music video that represents your quadra



## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

So I thought this might be fun to do 

I'm a Beta and I think this is pretty accurate for us:


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)




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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Straystuff said:


> So I thought this might be fun to do
> 
> I'm a Beta and I think this is pretty accurate for us:


Yes I feel the beta.
Scarily accurate.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

I guess this embodies gamma somewhat.






(Edited it to a more accurate video with the same song)


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

hornet said:


> Yes I feel the beta.
> Scarily accurate.


Hah yeah, I love that song/video!

I know a few music videos where one or two of the Beta types are represented, but that one has all intuitives and sensors crammed up in one magnificent video :')


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Straystuff said:


> Hah yeah, I love that song/video!
> 
> I know a few music videos where one or two of the Beta types are represented, but that one has all intuitives and sensors crammed up in one magnificent video :')


I know...
I've tried to find a similarly accurate gamma video, but can't seem to find one.
Luckily I can partake in the Se/Ni fiest of that one until I find one that is on par.


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)




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## Flaming Bassoon (Feb 15, 2013)

Delta:


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Mostly SEE, a little bit LIE as well.





I don't know, maybe it's ILI. Maybe it's Maybelline.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Now this is Gamma!


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


>


Muse is beta. Matt Bellamy is an Fe type for sure.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)




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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

Not nearly as good as the first one I posted but I do think this is Beta (intuitives overrepresented):


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

@Elyasis what quadra values do you think Homestuck represents?


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## MNiS (Jan 30, 2010)

Entropic said:


> Muse is beta. Matt Bellamy is an Fe type for sure.


The Muse is not a Beta band and Matt Bellamy is probably an ILE. I didn't choose that song for Gamma because I thought the band was Gamma though. I chose it for the ironic name which is probably not too coincidental. 

The music video itself is all Se-Ni.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Amaterasu said:


> @_Elyasis_ what quadra values do you think Homestuck represents?


As far as I can see it has representation from all the quadras. Maybe Alpha and Gamma more than Delta and Beta. Gamma being the group of the "bad guys", but really they are just self motivated. Alpha being the rest of the dorks.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> The Muse is not a Beta band and Matt Bellamy is probably an ILE. I didn't choose that song for Gamma because I thought the band was Gamma though. I chose it for the ironic name which is probably not too coincidental.
> 
> The music video itself is all Se-Ni.


Yes, but the video is beta, not gamma.


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## Wolfskralle (Nov 29, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Yes, but the video is beta, not gamma.


That video is - Se as hell, but dunno if Muse is that beta band overall...

To not spam - my quadra instrumental music, cause I couldn't find proper video for now.






OK I found some videos but they are too disturbing to post :|


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## Caelestis (Oct 3, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> As far as I can see it has representation from all the quadras. Maybe Alpha and Gamma more than Delta and Beta. Gamma being the group of the "bad guys", but really they are just self motivated. Alpha being the rest of the dorks.


Homestuck seems very Ne to me. The Humor as well. Everything ties together but the possible meanings and interpretations one could get from it is endless, because Homestuck doesn't have just one core idea, it's a giant ball of many different wacky ideas jumping everywhere. The fact that it was originally just supposed to be a short text adventure about some kids getting to the mail box to play a game, but Hussie decided to take it on this crazy wacky adventure, leads me to believe that the series has a more Ne oriented approach to story telling. So in short, Homestuck seems Alpha or Delta to me.

But of course this might just be me being biased, since I'm pretty sure I value Ne in some order at least, lol.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

MNiS said:


> The Muse is not a Beta band and Matt Bellamy is probably an ILE. I didn't choose that song for Gamma because I thought the band was Gamma though. I chose it for the ironic name which is probably not too coincidental.
> 
> The music video itself is all Se-Ni.





wolf12345 said:


> That video is - Se as hell, but dunno if Muse is that beta band overall...


I think so, because the music is Fe in the way it's written and presented. Take a song like this for example:






Matt has Fe moan to his voice and the lyrics are Fe-inclusive, rather than Fi. The video linked previously too, while not as clearly beta like Die Antwoord, it uses very similar static elements at its places and often seems to throw weird images in the viewer's face more for the sake of eliciting a reaction (Fe) rather than it trying to express some deeper meaning about human relationship and values (Fi).

As for Matt, I haven't looked much into it but I'm hunching he's far more likely to be an EIE than an ILE. Why would ab ILE write a song called "Glorious" in the first place and write about faith in this way? EIEs do that, not ILEs.

As a more obvious example for comparison:


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## Wolfskralle (Nov 29, 2013)

I dunno what type he is, EIE is possible but doubtful imo. 
I don't find Muse music that expressive at all and I know decent amout of Fi users (including Delta) who really enjoy this band. I think Muse is more like conglomerate of different types in one band. Vocals may sound like "Fe moan" at times, but - to give you an example - this one I don't really find that expressive:





At least not in a way I necessarily connect with Fe.
For comparision, I think she is an Fe dom:




I think she is an ENFj or maybe ESFj. Level of dramatism compared with Muse is intolerable. At least for me - perhaps we have different perceptions of what Fe & Fi is.

About that previous video I already agreed that it has Se-Ni static images, pretty much like Die Antwoord. Many of their videos have this feeling actually, but I think it is more on the side of video director, because again, their music do not sound strictly Beta to me.


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Caelestis said:


> Homestuck seems very Ne to me. The Humor as well. Everything ties together but the possible meanings and interpretations one could get from it is endless, because Homestuck doesn't have just one core idea, it's a giant ball of many different wacky ideas jumping everywhere. The fact that it was originally just supposed to be a short text adventure about some kids getting to the mail box to play a game, but Hussie decided to take it on this crazy wacky adventure, leads me to believe that the series has a more Ne oriented approach to story telling. So in short, Homestuck seems Alpha or Delta to me.
> 
> But of course this might just be me being biased, since I'm pretty sure I value Ne in some order at least, lol.


I'm not arguing that it isn't heavily Alpha. But from a character standpoint it has a lot of Gammas. Hussie seems like an LII to me, but I don't know him personally so it's all speculation based on his writing style and various blog posts. I don't see it as favoring Delta or Beta, honestly... in Reinen dichotomies it falls squarely on the side of democracy. Both Delta and Beta are aristocratic. Not that there isn't Beta's in the work... HIC is one as a SLE. Or Delta's, Equius is an SLI.


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## Caelestis (Oct 3, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> I'm not arguing that it isn't heavily Alpha. But from a character standpoint it has a lot of Gammas. Hussie seems like an LII to me, but I don't know him personally so it's all speculation based on his writing style and various blog posts. I don't see it as favoring Delta or Beta, honestly... in Reinen dichotomies it falls squarely on the side of democracy. Both Delta and Beta are aristocratic. Not that there isn't Beta's in the work... HIC is one as a SLE. Or Delta's, Equius is an SLI.


From a character standpoint, then I agree. There are many Gamma characters in Homestuck, but it also has very many diverse and colorful characters, so of course there's going to be representation from every quadra. The series itself definitely has a very Ne oriented narrative though, much more extensively Alpha than Delta when I think about it. In Reinin dichotomies it seems much more merry than serious as well.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

More Beta:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

wolf12345 said:


> I dunno what type he is, EIE is possible but doubtful imo.
> I don't find Muse music that expressive at all and I know decent amout of Fi users (including Delta) who really enjoy this band. I think Muse is more like conglomerate of different types in one band. Vocals may sound like "Fe moan" at times, but - to give you an example - this one I don't really find that expressive:
> 
> 
> ...


I agree Evanescence and Fe, but that song you linked is definitely Fe. Even the video too, pretty Fe, imo. And sure, people can enjoy music cross-quadra, it's not like we have to enjoy music solely from our own. I mean, one of my favorite bands, I think the core band member (who is the one primarily driving the band, producing music etc.) is an LSI. 

I'd place Evanescence in alpha though. I find alpha Fe less tolerable than beta. The reason why I mention Smashing Pumpkins is because he's usually typed as EIE or ENFJ and you see the Fe drive in the lyrics; more concerned about values than Ni imagery. I find that to be true about Muse's lyrics too, for most of the part, anyway. Probably why the only song I really like by them is Uprising, it's more Se.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Type Jared Leto/30 Seconds to Mars:






(Already decided in my mind, but maybe @To_august will get it roud


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## phonethesun (May 6, 2013)

INCOMING DELTA STEREOTYPES(i think)


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Type Jared Leto/30 Seconds to Mars:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol to flying military vessels and warcraft. Concerning its theme video is supposed to be Se-driven, but somehow it doesn't give me this impression at all. I would say this is Fi-Ne or Ne-Fi and Jared Leto is probably IEE.

P.S. I think Matt Bellamy and an overall bent of Muse is Fe-Ti and Se-Ni. I have a hard time seeing Ne-Si in their work, so I lean Beta.


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## Wolfskralle (Nov 29, 2013)

Entropic said:


> that song you linked is definitely Fe. Even the video too, pretty Fe


Thought you gonna say so but dunno where you get that. I think this song is pretty bold example of what is called "ethics of relations", hence Fi.


> Animal
> You’re an animal
> Don’t take anything less
> 
> ...


I don't find here any "ethics of emotions" - Fe. It is pretty moralistic and even judgemental, but these judgements are made upon "moral code" of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong ("you're a fucking animal cause all you care is money, fuck you"). That - I see as Fi. Fe is more like a free expression of emotions, which happened - for example - in Evanescence video I posted last time.

One element I can possibly connect with Fe here is last verse:


> Amortise
> Downsize
> Lay off
> Kill yourself
> Come on and do us all a favour


But I wouldn't say it may be defined as Fe - socionics element. If anything, it could be MBTI Fe, since Fe is sometimes defined as a "group mentality" there (I don't really agree with this definition either, e.g. because I think most communist theoreticians were Te - Fi types). 

Personally I am not that huge fan of Muse. Just disagree as if they are "Fe frontman" or "Beta" band, since I can't see it. More like a conglomerate of different types. Uprising is nice, but I don't see how it differ from rest of their songs (in terms of cognition). Maybe it is a bit more rhythmical - that's all.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

wolf12345 said:


> Thought you gonna say so but dunno where you get that. I think this song is pretty bold example of what is called "ethics of relations", hence Fi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except the lyrics aren't actually phrased that way, nor are the lyrics actually making any clearcut distinction on what is an appropriate action to take in terms of right-wrong or good-bad. All the lyrics _are_ stating is that a) we are animals, b) we are out of control, c) we strike those in distress, d) we analyze, franchise, spread out, kill the competition, e) we buy ourselves an ocean. It's making zero moral judgement about the rightness or wrongness about these actions. It's only stating that these actions are taking place and this is what we are. In fact, I may argue that the very notion of that we are all animals and this is describing our very generic human nature is Fe, too. 

So I think you are projecting here, due to the vagueness of how they're written. Furthermore, are you suggesting Fe-valuing types can never talk about themselves or place themselves in the center or talk about other people or personal relationships? Because that's pretty shallow as a conclusion, if so. 

The biggest problem with this particular song is that the lyrics aren't elaborate enough to go on in the first place; they seem haphazard, random and for most of the part, nonsensical. However, perhaps, most importantly, what the lyrics _are_ doing is that they are expressing random actions almost for the sake of expressing them but without these actions in themselves actually holding any distinct meaning. That's actually pretty removed from anything Fi and is much better fit with Fe. 



> That - I see as Fi. Fe is more like a free expression of emotions, which happened - for example - in Evanescence video I posted last time.





> One element I can possibly connect with Fe here is last verse:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your way of distinguishing MBTI Fe and socionics Fe here. I don't operate this way. I look at the actual cognitive content, whether the ethics are oriented externally or internally, whether it's looking at or away from the object world. I don't see the lyrics ultimately looking at a subject experience here. You can't necessarily draw a clearcut line on where the lyrics fall in terms of ethics, but if you wanted an example of an Fi song from Muse, I think this song is a terrible example of it. Take this for example:






Notice not only how there is such a distinct difference in musical quality, but this distinct quality accompanies the lyrics into creating a very, clear, strong and obvious preference towards Fi. The only way you'd reasonably convince me that Muse can write Fi-motivated content would be if you can find songs like these. 



> Personally I am not that huge fan of Muse. Just disagree as if they are "Fe frontman" or "Beta" band, since I can't see it. More like a conglomerate of different types. Uprising is nice, but I don't see how it differ from rest of their songs (in terms of cognition). Maybe it is a bit more rhythmical - that's all.


Uprising is a very Se-driven song. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think you've made a very strong or convincing case to support your claim.


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## Wolfskralle (Nov 29, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Except the lyrics aren't actually phrased that way, nor are the lyrics actually making any clearcut distinction on what is an appropriate action to take in terms of right-wrong or good-bad. All the lyrics _are_ stating is that a) we are animals, b) we are out of control, c) we strike those in distress, d) we analyze, franchise, spread out, kill the competition, e) we buy ourselves an ocean. It's making zero moral judgement about the rightness or wrongness about these actions. It's only stating that these actions are taking place and this is what we are.


Of course it is not written as a fact - statement lol. It's a god damn song. With last verses:


> Lay off
> Kill yourself
> Come on and do us all a favour


I think it is pretty obvious what it is about, though. And if you still disagree you can watch the video (till the end).



> So I think you are projecting here, due to the vagueness of how they're written. Furthermore, are you suggesting Fe-valuing types can never talk about themselves or place themselves in the center or talk about other people or personal relationships? Because that's pretty shallow as a conclusion, if so.


I am not projecting because I have absolutely no reason to do so. I'm discussing this mostly for the sake of intellectual enjoyment and to practice my english.  Also, to learn something new.
This song seem pretty straightforward; not vague at all. Maybe not as simple as Linkin Park, which you linked in your last post, but still, it is not any sort of abstract poetry which could be misunderstood, or which meaning we could discuss for hours.
I'm not suggesting what someone can or cannot do, I'm simply stating a fact, that Fe is defined as "ethics of emotions" in Socionics, while Fi is defined as "ethics of relationships". I think overall temper and meaning of this song belongs to the latter. Reason for that is because it isn't operating with any kind of free emotional expression; instead, it deals with human interactions in society. It describes certain actions undertaken by a certain person ("Analyse, Advertise, Expand" and then "Analyse, Franchise, Spread out"). These are of course steps in progression of business. So as you can see, this person progress with some kind of activity, probaly a professional or business - like. Simultaneously, there is a progression of immoral behavior ("Strike those in distress", "Bend more rules", "Buy when blood is on the street", "Crush those who beg at your feet", "Kill the competition"). This behavior seem more and more profitable, since after "bending more rules" he could "only" "buy an island", while after "killing a competition" there is a verse: "buy yourself an ocean".
Last verses are crucial: "Amortise, Downsize, Lay off". These are of course collapse stages of business. What happens with a person when he fails in this kind of immoral world then? He became useless and all he can do is: "Kill yourself, Come on and do us all a favour".


I think it is not that random. It is just not as literal, as say, Linkin Park. "Animals" is about living in a society governed by money and purely materialistic concerns. Moral of this song is that if you live in that kind of society, and agree on it's terms, live by it's conditions, you become an animal; you live and die like an animal. And when you fail, you become useless.
If you think that only songs with strong and unequivocal moral order (like "do that, avoid that!" ) may treat about (im)morality - then you are wrong. 




> In fact, I may argue that the very notion of that we are all animals and this is describing our very generic human nature is Fe, too.


?



> I don't agree with your way of distinguishing MBTI Fe and socionics Fe here. I don't operate this way. I look at the actual cognitive content, whether the ethics are oriented externally or internally, whether it's looking at or away from the object world.


I think there is nothing to agree or disagree with, since I am stating a fact: some parts of Fe definition differ in MBTI and Socionics. Take no offence, but how you operate is irrelevant with what I said there.



> I don't see the lyrics ultimately looking at a subject experience here. You can't necessarily draw a clearcut line on where the lyrics fall in terms of ethics, but if you wanted an example of an Fi song from Muse, I think this song is a terrible example of it. Take this for example:


Linkin Park, like many similar bands, have strong Fi "scent", agree. That song is also very Fi, agree. It is also pretty simple and immature, imo. Still, very Fi, and quite nice song by the way. Used to listen a lot of this. 



> Notice not only how there is such a distinct difference in musical quality, but this distinct quality...


I don't understand what kind of "distinct quality" are you talking about.



> ...accompanies the lyrics into creating a very, clear, strong and obvious preference towards Fi. The only way you'd reasonably convince me that Muse can write Fi-motivated content would be if you can find songs like these.


I'm not gonna take my chances, since I don't think every Fi song has to be Linkin Park-alike. "Don't stay" is about feelings of a person towards another person; "Animals" is about moral code of human relations in modern, "developed" society. Imho both songs lean more towards Fi than Fe. The difference is that "Don't stay" is literally about how someone feels, while "Animals" is about (im)morality of modern society. I don't think that only slightly emo, rock bands who sings about "how they feel" may be classified as Fi. Actually, after spending enormous amount of time with one Fi dom, I think that healthy and well developed Fi is NOT about "how you feel", but more about making moral judgements about "what really matter" (just like Ti is about making logical judgements).



> Uprising is a very Se-driven song. Feel free to disagree, but I don't think you've made a very strong or convincing case to support your claim.


I disagree to disagree, because I didn't make any claim in the first place. ;-)
You said it is their only song that you can tolerate, and I said that I don't see how it essentially differ from rest of their songs. Nothing about "how Se" it is.


But at this point, yeah. I can agree to disagree. As I said 2 or 3 posts before we have probably different definitions of what Fe and Fi is. So we can end this right now. If you willing to continue, I probably won't be able to respond till next week anyway.

One more thing I am curious about is where you see Fe in "Animals". But not like "cause it's not Fi" or "it's random and doesn't make sense". Where you see Fe, not where you don't see Fi.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

wolf12345 said:


> Of course it is not written as a fact - statement lol. It's a god damn song. With last verses:
> 
> I think it is pretty obvious what it is about, though. And if you still disagree you can watch the video (till the end).


I never denied the overall meaning but I'm denying that the song is actually drawing moral implications based on lyrical content alone. It doesn't. 



> I am not projecting because I have absolutely no reason to do so.


A person can project for many reasons; in this case, I think you are projecting meaning that's not actually there because you think it's there because that is how you interpret the song, though objectively speaking, the song does actually never clearly state such a thing. 



> I'm discussing this mostly for the sake of intellectual enjoyment and to practice my english.  Also, to learn something new.
> This song seem pretty straightforward; not vague at all.


By vague I mean that the preferred cognition that could have been creating the song and driving its reasoning is vague; that's not clear at all. You cannot draw such conclusions from stanzas that only contain one word on a line. 



> Maybe not as simple as Linkin Park, which you linked in your last post, but still, it is not any sort of abstract poetry which could be misunderstood, or which meaning we could discuss for hours.


You completely misunderstand what I meant with vagueness. 



> I'm not suggesting what someone can or cannot do, I'm simply stating a fact, that Fe is defined as "ethics of emotions" in Socionics, while Fi is defined as "ethics of relationships".


No shit Sherlock, but they are a little more than those crude definitions. 



> I think overall temper and meaning of this song belongs to the latter. Reason for that is because it isn't operating with any kind of free emotional expression; instead, it deals with human interactions in society.


I think you are too hung up on the socionics definition of Fe, as if Fe cannot be concerned about human interactions in society. What you just outlined is ethics in general; both Fe and Fi are concerned about the social meaning of human interaction. They just conceptualize that meaning differently. If Fe cannot be concerned about human interactions in society, then why is the beta quadra the quadra associated with social revolution? 



> It describes certain actions undertaken by a certain person ("Analyse, Advertise, Expand" and then "Analyse, Franchise, Spread out"). These are of course steps in progression of business.


That is a very literal interpretation of the words only looking at how those words are used in a business-related context. Again, do you really think Fe types cannot actually think in terms of analyze (in fact, I think a lot of traditional socionists would say that the word "analyze" is a Ti word, not Te), advertise, and expand? You can argue that it's Je perhaps, in that it's looking at the result of outward action, but take a word such as advertise; what are advertisements? They are selling you messages, trying to convince you of the importance of something. Logic does not deal with notions of importance; that falls under the realm of values. Therefore advertisements, if we are going to be really nitpicky and look at the meaning of these words, would actually be better associated with Fe than Te. Then there's the word "expand" which would best be interpreted as representing Se or at least Pe, in the sense that expansion is a notion associated with potential and outwards movement. However, due to the more implicit aggressive nature of the word expansion, I think Se would be better suited than Ne. 

Then if we go on to study the word franchise, again, franchise indicates an idea of pertaining a certain value. Like yes, if we are looking at franchises in the literal concrete sense of the word in that franchises exist as businesses, then one would associate the existence of franchises with Te, but a franchise is more than just an activity of business; a franchise is a brand containing social value. Because this kind of value is actually defined by the external environment, it would fall under Fe, not Te. 



> So as you can see, this person progress with some kind of activity, probaly a professional or business - like.


Already debunked this. I think you are interpreting the lyrics too literally and applying the meaning of the words too literally, only looking at the literal meaning of how these concepts exists. 



> Simultaneously, there is a progression of immoral behavior ("Strike those in distress", "Bend more rules", "Buy when blood is on the street", "Crush those who beg at your feet", "Kill the competition").


You are right, this is dealing with ethics, but notice how the moral behavior is never judged as good or bad, right or wrong. It simply states that these behaviors exist. It makes for a very important distinction here. Also notice how these values are delivered in a very general, generic and larger-than-life kind of sense; it does not speak of them in terms of personal experience that Fi does. 



> This behavior seem more and more profitable, since after "bending more rules" he could "only" "buy an island", while after "killing a competition" there is a verse: "buy yourself an ocean".


Wow, you are so literal, I swear, lol. How is it even possible to be this literal? It's fairly obvious to me that the lyrics are metaphorical. He isn't singing about literally buying an ocean, and even if he were, why must that necessarily be Te? As if Fe types cannot be concerned about money? 



> Last verses are crucial: "Amortise, Downsize, Lay off". These are of course collapse stages of business. What happens with a person when he fails in this kind of immoral world then? He became useless and all he can do is: "Kill yourself, Come on and do us all a favour".


Sure, that all makes sense, but I don't think that Fe types are exempt from using the meaning of a business metaphorically in a songtext, lol. It's not like Fe types cannot have their own businesses or think about business. 



> I think it is not that random. It is just not as literal, as say, Linkin Park.


Linkin Park is Se literal, but the Muse song is very much random. There is very little meaning to go off, especially in a cognitive context, from a song whose stanzas have one word on each line. Without knowing the proper context as to why those words over other words, you cannot tell what kind of cognition it is that drove it to be structured and expressed this way. 

If I wrote a poem that goes like this:

Mayflower blooms
Happily

Can you tell me what cognition I used in order to express this? 



> "Animals" is about living in a society governed by money and purely materialistic concerns. Moral of this song is that if you live in that kind of society, and agree on it's terms, live by it's conditions, you become an animal; you live and die like an animal. And when you fail, you become useless.


It does again however, not connote whether that is good or bad. It's only describing the outcome. 



> If you think that only songs with strong and unequivocal moral order (like "do that, avoid that!" ) may treat about (im)morality - then you are wrong.


What? If you think that was the point I was trying to raise, you don't understand how I differentiate between Fi and Fe at all. Fi isn't about declaratives; Fi is about using the self as reference point in order to judge something of right or wrong. The reason why I linked you the Linkin Park song is because the song is a good example of this: It's about how I feel, how I think, what I want, what I need. It's always going back to the self as reference point in order to gauge what action is correct or incorrect. Do you see the Muse song doing that? No. It's broadly speaking about, assuming your interpretation is correct, human behavior and its relationship to money and how money affects human behavior. In fact, that alone is very Fe in how it's being reasoned, or at least Je, but since it's after all dealing with ethics, then it points far more strongly to Fe than it does Te. 



> ?


Fe is all about how certain values affect people in a general and generic kind of sense. Especially if we are talking about beta Fe, because I understand it far better than I do alpha, Fe exists together with Ni idealism in how ideals affect us. Objects are relative to each other, we have relationships to them. Therefore words such as "darkness" is not something that humans can intrinsically possess; instead darkness is an object that humans can have relationships too and be affected by. You actually see this tendency in the Muse lyrics, though they are so brief it's difficult to of course say with certainty that so is the case, but the argument for that is far stronger than it is Fi and personal values. 



> I think there is nothing to agree or disagree with, since I am stating a fact: some parts of Fe definition differ in MBTI and Socionics. Take no offence, but how you operate is irrelevant with what I said there.


Yeah, you are stating a fact but with that fact you are missing out on _a lot_ of nuance of what these two elements actually do and are capable of in a truly cognitive sense. You are reducing them to something so simplistic I can't even begin to agree with your basic methodology. 



> Linkin Park, like many similar bands, have strong Fi "scent", agree. That song is also very Fi, agree. It is also pretty simple and immature, imo. Still, very Fi, and quite nice song by the way. Used to listen a lot of this.


The point wasn't whether you liked the song lol, but the point was merely to bring up an example of a song that I think showcases a good and strong example of Fi in music that isn't just resonated in the lyrics but also in the very music structure and the way the song expresses itself. 



> I don't understand what kind of "distinct quality" are you talking about.


The distinct quality difference between Linkin Park and Muse in how the ethics seems to be oriented. 



> I'm not gonna take my chances, since I don't think every Fi song has to be Linkin Park-alike. "Don't stay" is about feelings of a person towards another person;


Of course not, and it's perhaps more literal in the sense that in the case of Linkin Park, Fi is blocked with Se, but that's beyond the point. I could also have linked you this song if you want to see Fi blocked with intuition:








> "Animals" is about moral code of human relations in modern, "developed" society.


Except again, the song never actually explicitly states whether this is good or bad! That is all on you and how you choose to interpret this song. That is why I am telling you that you are projecting, because you are projecting ethical meaning that is not there or in the very least, not overtly stated. 



> Imho both songs lean more towards Fi than Fe. The difference is that "Don't stay" is literally about how someone feels, while "Animals" is about (im)morality of modern society.


Except... if we are talking about society at large like that, we are moving into NF-territory and if we are talking about general values of society as a whole that are collectively shared, then that is actually Fe, not Fi. 



> I don't think that only slightly emo, rock bands who sings about "how they feel" may be classified as Fi.


Of course Fe can sing about how they feel, but when they do, it will definitely be in the lines of Evanscence. 



> Actually, after spending enormous amount of time with one Fi dom, I think that healthy and well developed Fi is NOT about "how you feel", but more about making moral judgements about "what really matter" (just like Ti is about making logical judgements).


Like Carnival of Rust? Yeah, that's Fi when you pair it with intuition but see, Fe can also be concerned about what matters. Just that it's more contextual. 



> I disagree to disagree, because I didn't make any claim in the first place. ;-)
> You said it is their only song that you can tolerate, and I said that I don't see how it essentially differ from rest of their songs. Nothing about "how Se" it is.


My point was that the song differs from other songs in that it's more Se, thus implying that I like the song precisely because of it's stronger Se-focus. Kapich?



> But at this point, yeah. I can agree to disagree. As I said 2 or 3 posts before we have probably different definitions of what Fe and Fi is.


No shit. Yours is literal as fuck and I can't stand it tbh. It's missing out on so many dimensions of how these play out in cognition. 



> we can end this right now. If you willing to continue, I probably won't be able to respond till next week anyway.
> 
> One more thing I am curious about is where you see Fe in "Animals". But not like "cause it's not Fi" or "it's random and doesn't make sense". Where you see Fe, not where you don't see Fi.


I think I've explained this plenty by now.


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## Wolfskralle (Nov 29, 2013)

@Entropic


> A person can project for many reasons; in this case, I think you are projecting meaning that's not actually there because you think it's there because that is how you interpret the song, though objectively speaking, the song does actually never clearly state such a thing.
> ...
> ...
> Except again, the song never actually explicitly states whether this is good or bad! That is all on you and how you choose to interpret this song. That is why I am telling you that you are projecting, because you are projecting ethical meaning that is not there or in the very least, not overtly stated.



The thing is it is stating only you are too blind to see it. It is such simple anti-capitalistic song with such as simple meaning it is amazing you are unable to see it, because you don't have it given on a plate, lol, and you say I am literal. I tried to translate it to you in simple terms so you can understand, but no, you started talking about Te and Fe types being able/unable to grow a business, lol. 



> 'Animals' is about economies collapsing under the weight of stock market savagery, of industries desperate to "advertise, franchise… kill the competition," and of the *greed of bankers who Matt claims should "kill [themselves]." Matt says: "This song is conjuring up the rawest form of that feeling of 'look what humans are capable of doing, it's shocking.'*"[1]


Source. It is a god damn simple moral judgement. And yeah, your interpretation of Fi is so brilliant. It boils down to "when *I* talk about how *I* feel *I*'m using Fi".

Now please, GTFO. Got no time for that. Plus you are being rude and talking to you here is not a pleasure. It is not that informative either, bacause all you do is negate what other person have to say (next to posting your music videos) :x



* *


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

wolf12345 said:


> @Entropic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I never denied that meaning. I never argued that it was wrong; I am arguing and have been arguing that how the lyrics are written do not, however, actually provide sufficient content to argue that you can say with absolute certainty that this is reflecting Fi over Fe values. You can't. Fe can also be concerned about capitalism but the most important fact here is how it actually goes back to how it makes people _act like animals_. It is not in itself deriving an intrinsic value of like-dislike, good-bad, right-wrong. You say being an animal is a bad thing, that capitalism is bad, but again, where does it actually state that in a personal way in using the self as a reference point? Saying this is bad is a personal interpretation of how you understand it. Not sure how you cannot see that you are making that bias. 

And no, I can't say I experienced any meaningful information exchange with you at all tbh, and by IE I mean in a socionics sense, not in the general sense. Your thinking frustrates me more than I find it pleasurable or enjoyable.


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## Straystuff (May 23, 2014)

I'm still looking for Alpha and Delta examples, does anyone know any good ones??


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Here is your Alpha and Fe overload:kitteh:


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

To_august said:


> Here is your Alpha and Fe overload:kitteh:


That video reminds me of Jung Si. Maybe I'm just taking very literally. But she's crazy.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

To_august said:


> Here is your Alpha and Fe overload:kitteh:


Gross I hope not.


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## Gentleman (Jun 14, 2014)

Alpha:





Beta:





Gamma:





Delta:


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## To_august (Oct 13, 2013)

Cellar Door said:


> Gross I hope not.


Lol, there's no reason to deny - SiFe does have this crazy side. 

..............

Here is some Delta stuff. The first one is Delta ST.










I think Enya is also Delta. I saw many different typings for her, but SiNe is written all over her 
music and subdued Fe makes sense.


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## Kabosu (Mar 31, 2012)

Elyasis said:


> Alpha:


It reminds me of a lighthearted Anime edition of Robot Chicken, mixed with a lot of the actual internet interactions and memes I experience and oddly enough, mixed with some dreams I sometimes have.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Word Dispenser said:


> Alphaaaa
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alpha on drugs. :laughing:


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## Elyasis (Jan 4, 2012)

Caelestis said:


> From a character standpoint, then I agree. There are many Gamma characters in Homestuck, but it also has very many diverse and colorful characters, so of course there's going to be representation from every quadra. The series itself definitely has a very Ne oriented narrative though, much more extensively Alpha than Delta when I think about it. In Reinin dichotomies it seems much more merry than serious as well.


Changed my mind about Hussie. It's clearly a story written by a dynamic over a static. He has way too many characters, all with their POV being represented, to be a static.

Also, tentatively, typing Vriska as a SEE. Se subtype. Sollux is probably an LII. ESI for Karkat. IEI for Rose. Dave is ILE to the max. Those are just some of my favorites though.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Straystuff said:


> So I thought this might be fun to do
> 
> I'm a Beta and I think this is pretty accurate for us:


Associative, emphatic, dramatic, whimsical, hierarchical, inclusive, skeptical, zef social commentary, Die frigging Antwoord

EDIT: Yolandi is everything I want to be.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Kerik_S said:


> Associative, emphatic, dramatic, whimsical, hierarchical, inclusive, skeptical, zef social commentary, Die frigging Antwoord
> 
> EDIT: Yolandi is everything I want to be.


No. beta is very assertive, to the point, in the flow of the environment. Not like that SEI your posted.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

MNiS said:


>


Abstract tangential expression of sentiments rooted in core personal values?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Elyasis said:


> Mostly SEE, a little bit LIE as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love seeing Fi and Te through my familiar Ni/Se tandem.

I actually just added Noragami to my anime list, ready to watch it soon! The animation looks beautiful and crisp and the characters emotive and resolute

　
EDIT: Homestuck is the most Fi thing I've ever seen ever


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Entropic said:


> Muse is beta. Matt Bellamy is an Fe type for sure.


Yeah, this post was very One Of These Things Is Not Like The Other


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Gentleman said:


> Alpha:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was venturing a guess-- since I just really studied Quadras a few hours ago, specifically to relate to this topic-- that I'm drawn mostly toward Beta and Gamma music. I guess that means my Decisive slant is more clear than my Merry slant? I don't mind Serious if it's paired with Decisive... and Alpha is only relateable when I'm feeling "genki." Judicious and Serious strikes me as either silently brooding or affectively subdued, preferring to illustrate the emotions in a controlled intellectual flourish rather than just emoting in an emphatic and affected way. I like Delta for friendship, but if you translate the Delta essence to music, it's takes a bit too much "translating the message" for me to listen to it for leisure.

Alpha is translated pretty easily (Fe-Ti is good for content over aesthetic), but the message doesn't tickle my abstract bent enough in a relatable fashion (Ne doesn't "hit" me as easily as Ni) unless it's Si-heavy (how things felt, what makes the writer avoid or cling to certain things... usually fun things, materialistic stuff that I can get at with some roundabout Se).

Gamma, though. YASSSSSSSSSSSSSS. It tickles my Ni or my Se, in a way that "says things in ways I can't say them very often" (Fi, Te to some degree).


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

MNiS said:


> Adriaaaaan!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^_^


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Straystuff said:


> I find this interesting. How would you describe the difference between these two Fe:s?


Alpha Fe's tend to sacrifice emotional breadth to preserve pleasantries and positivity, for emotional configuration (finding any atmosphere to express it, and expressing it in a way that changes the atmosphere via expression). Beta Fe is more interested in sacrificing pleasantry and positivity for communicating convictions and nuances in a way that is meant for emotional impact (finding the ideal atmosphere to express it, and expressing it fully).

Alpha = Fe to configure
Beta = Fe to contribute


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> Going through a lot of my music, thinking "what actually matches my quadra". We seem to be lacking a bit here.
> 
> 
> 
> To a large extent I agree with Alpha Fe being "soft and fluffy" and Beta Fe being not so much. When I have discussions about important stuff with ethical Alphas I rarely feel threatened, even if our ideas or beliefs are vastly different or even opposing. I generally avoid doing the same thing with ethical Betas simply because I get the opposite vibe from them. When it comes to ESE and EIE, both of them seem to pretty much always at the centre of attention. But I get the feeling that the latter are trying much harder (a little _too_ hard, it's always a little _too much_ with you Beta NF's :tongue for that attention, though.


It's important to realize that, just because someone's doing something more often than you might prefer to, doesn't mean that there's the same amount of _effort_ it would take for them to do it as it would take for you to. "Trying too hard" implies that everyone has the same struggle in mustering certain behaviors as you do.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Word Dispenser said:


> Alphaaaa
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about sexy-time music for people that have mutually agreed that sex isn't considered a "heavy" topic? Alphas are very "GET YOUR LIFE" and encouraging of things they consider healthy and good, and sometimes they consider sexual topics to be healthy and make some pretty sensual music


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> No. beta is very assertive, to the point, in the flow of the environment. Not like that SEI your posted.


All the words that I posted could apply to Alpha and Beta. What makes the Die Antwoord video Beta is the willingness to assert things without worrying about "grating" certain people. Alpha isn't hierarchical because that creates a clear power dynamic. Alpha isn't associative in the sense that I meant it because it's willing to cut people out for the sake of harmony and atmosphere (though, it would be done by covertly diverting attention, rather than direct overt confrontation like a Gamma). Alpha won't express skepticism if it's too sobering to the atmosphere. In the context of the video and lyrics, skepticism was more about being skeptical about dismissing "Ugly Boys" at face-value, and instead focusing on what they bring to the table (in the minds of the writers).

And, moreso, I associate Die Antwoord with "sobering skepticism" because their entire act is satire and social commentary on a subculture that they both find inane and destructive (Zef).


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Kerik_S said:


> All the words that I posted could apply to Alpha and Beta. What makes the Die Antwoord video Beta is the willingness to assert things without worrying about "grating" certain people. Alpha isn't hierarchical because that creates a clear power dynamic. Alpha isn't associative in the sense that I meant it because it's willing to cut people out for the sake of harmony and atmosphere (though, it would be done by covertly diverting attention, rather than direct overt confrontation like a Gamma). Alpha won't express skepticism if it's too sobering to the atmosphere. In the context of the video and lyrics, skepticism was more about being skeptical about dismissing "Ugly Boys" at face-value, and instead focusing on what they bring to the table (in the minds of the writers).
> 
> And, moreso, I associate Die Antwoord with "sobering skepticism" because their entire act is satire and social commentary on a subculture that they both find inane and destructive (Zef).


Well, die antwood is good and all. But Im not sure if solidify beta values.


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

I find it offensive in many spiritual levels that this wasn't here as a beta representative.

I will make sure to have you all prosecuted for this.


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Kerik_S said:


> "Trying too hard" implies that everyone has the same struggle in mustering certain behaviors as you do.


I don't struggle to do the same, it just reeks of massive insincerity; basically _faking it_. While Alphas appear to be children, or delusional-often both-I don't get the same _fake_ vibe from their melodrama as I do with Betas, or when I play up the drama for the same of it (a.k.a IRL trolling). 

I know that as often as not they're _not _faking it, but it doesn't stop the gut instinct of _why you so fake bro?!_​ Most of the time I ignore it, it has no effect on me, but I can't really take that stuff too seriously. Any message that was being conveyed is often ignored due to it. Take FaT, for example.

Oh, and Fear Factory.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> I don't struggle to do the same, it just reeks of massive insincerity; basically _faking it_. While Alphas appear to be children, or delusional-often both-I don't get the same _fake_ vibe from their melodrama as I do with Betas, or when I play up the drama for the same of it (a.k.a IRL trolling).
> 
> I know that as often as not they're _not _faking it, but it doesn't stop the gut instinct of _why you so fake bro?!_​ Most of the time I ignore it, it has no effect on me, but I can't really take that stuff too seriously. Any message that was being conveyed is often ignored due to it.


"Trying too hard" implies that everyone has the same struggle in mustering certain behaviors as you do.

By that, I meant:

If you're doing this: (A) Thinking that someone is "trying too hard" to sound simply how they naturally phrase things a lot of the time

Then you're failing to understand this: (B) Some ways that you communicate things naturally _aren't_ the way that others communicate things naturally. Just because you _don't struggle to communicate *(because I should have phrased it that way) *_... just because you have certain ways you _"don't _sound try-hard'y_"_, it makes no sense to project that expectation onto other people and think that-- whenever they fail to phrase things the way you do-- that they're "trying too hard" and acribing false motives of attention-seeking on them.

It's basically typist. And it makes zero sense if you consider that:

The whole point of 16 personality types is that there's gonna be 15 general _different ways_ that people process and communicate informations.

"That's not how I do it" doesn't mean "They must be doing it deliberately, because if they were actually acting naturally without childish insecure motives, they would act more like how I think they should."

Typism. Prejudice based upon projections rooted in type.

It's not cute.

　


The_Wanderer said:


> Take FaT, for example.


I have a thread in which I came to the conclusion to ignore him based on his personality that has nothing to do with IEI. I personally don't believe he is, and even someone I got into an argument with that seemed diametrically opposed to most of what I said told me that they didn't see FaT as IEI either.

Maybe "try-hard"-'ism is more a reflection of someone trying to convince themselves that they are what they're not.

Perhaps "act of stereotypical IEI" are annoying, and you're getting a lot of fakers.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Well, die antwood is good and all. But Im not sure if solidify beta values.


I just studied Quadras after opening this thread up yesterday and trying to get the gist of it. I'm sure they fit to a _shallow understanding of Beta at least_. Time will tell if they fit into more sophisticated interpretations I make later on.

I'm happy to use shallow interpretations if it's simply for face-value consensus like "music videos that represent your quadra"


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Most stuff here is just, stuff that resemble the stereotype of the quadra and not the actually quadra values and such.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Graveyard said:


> I find it offensive in many spiritual levels that this wasn't here as a beta representative.
> 
> I will make sure to have you all prosecuted for this.
> 
> _*{*PARAMORE - "Ain't It Fun"*}*_[/video]


Paramore is my favorite band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only Page I Like on Facebook, the only ones whose careers I follow, the only ones I consider myself part of legit fandom!

We
Are
Paramore

$_P.A.R.A.F.A.M.I.L.Y.-$ |||


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

What is this then, Gamma right?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> Most stuff here is just, stuff that resemble the stereotype of the quadra and not the actually quadra values and such.


It'll give me a good feel for the stereotype since T stuff doesn't stick too much for me. Consensus of others works best for me to keep in my mind as "this is the prevailing idea"... and from there, I can tweak it with Ti to make sure it makes logical sense later.

I "get my foot in the door" through Ni-Fe, and refine with Ti, find loopholes with Ne, compare to personal sympathies and sentiments with Fi, try and give myself some visual aids and kinesthetic/sense-memory reinforcements with Se, and I generally just suck at Te and Si.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Beta


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Captain Mclain said:


> What is this then, Gamma right?
> 
> *{*_THREE DAYS GRACE - "Animal I Have Become"_*}*[/video]


I mean... I can't turn my volume up now because my mom and I are having are usual _Veg-Out-In-Each-Other's-Company Sunday_, but I like TDG, and my main gripe has been that a lot of their songs are so similar, so if it's anything like their other stuff, it seems like the Gamma stereotype. Beta would be more other-focused. This is all about his feels


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

Kerik_S said:


> Paramore is my favorite band!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The only Page I Like on Facebook, the only ones whose careers I follow, the only ones I consider myself part of legit fandom!
> 
> We
> Are
> ...


I believe I'm missing out a joke, so I'm going to pretend I know what's going on and laugh it off.


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Alpha


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Beta


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## Captain Mclain (Feb 22, 2014)

Delta


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## Serpent (Aug 6, 2015)

I've been listening to Disturbed a lot recently. Gamma or Beta? Definitely Se ego/valuing.


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## willowglass (Aug 6, 2015)

Delta


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## willowglass (Aug 6, 2015)

Delta


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## willowglass (Aug 6, 2015)

Delta?





Weezer as Delta? Ugh. I can't stand their Beverly Hills song...


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Kerik_S said:


> Then you're failing to understand this:


It's actually more a reflection of how Beta NF's can appear to people outside their quadra. It's not even a rule, but an observation. If you took it as some personal attack or typist statement then that's your issue, really. It wasn't.



Serpent said:


> I've been listening to Disturbed a lot recently. Gamma or Beta? Definitely Se ego/valuing.







Beta ST has always been my bet. Awesome band though. 

... then there's this gOLDie, which is probably Alpha:








Captain Mclain said:


> Most stuff here is just, stuff that resemble the stereotype of the quadra and not the actually quadra values and such.


Yeah, but take it for what it is because that's pretty much all you'll get when you see media that represents a quadra. I highly doubt creators go out of their way to make sure their work adheres to the values of their quadra.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Graveyard said:


> I believe I'm missing out a joke, so I'm going to pretend I know what's going on and laugh it off.


lulz. "Parafamily" is what the fans of Paramore are called.

||| <--- that's to represent that even though Paramore only has (well, had) three members after Josh and Zac Farro left (and the bassist got married and has a kid, so only the singer and the lead guitarist that replaced one of the Farro brothers are left), that they still have a band identity and solidarity

But, the bassist didn't "break-up" with them, so I still consider the ||| to be the symbol for Paramore. Josh and Zac were very vocally against the direction Paramore was taking and left. Jeremy just is raising a family and can't devote his time to things like going on the Parahoy! cruise this year, and I think he's been getting into hip-hop, too. xD


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

The_Wanderer said:


> It's actually more a reflection of how Beta NF's can appear to people outside their quadra. It's not even a rule, but an observation. If you took it as some personal attack or typist statement then that's your issue, really. It wasn't.


Fair enough. I just have a definition of typism that includes believing negative stereotying and basing exclusionary attitudes and behaviors off of those beliefs.

If you don't fall into that trap, you're not being typist.




The_Wanderer said:


> ... then there's this gOLDie, which is probably Alpha:


Be still my heart-- this is basically what I always thought of their music. Lots of syncopated non-semantic syllables and angst


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

Kerik_S said:


> lulz. "Parafamily" is what the fans of Paramore are called.
> 
> ||| <--- that's to represent that even though Paramore only has (well, had) three members after Josh and Zac Farro left (and the bassist got married and has a kid, so only the singer and the lead guitarist that replaced one of the Farro brothers are left), that they still have a band identity and solidarity
> 
> But, the bassist didn't "break-up" with them, so I still consider the ||| to be the symbol for Paramore. Josh and Zac were very vocally against the direction Paramore was taking and left. Jeremy just is raising a family and can't devote his time to things like going on the Parahoy! cruise this year, and I think he's been getting into hip-hop, too. xD


Oh. Okay, given context I get it. 

Though, I think he's really not into the band member life anymore? So it wouldn't surprise me if he "broke up" with them definitely. And as they will make music without him anyway, that wouldn't affect him.


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

goldberry3 said:


> Delta?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's like their least Delta song ever!! But stuff like Buddy Holly and the Sweater Song maybe...?


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Graveyard said:


> Oh. Okay, given context I get it.
> 
> Though, I think he's really not into the band member life anymore? So it wouldn't surprise me if he "broke up" with them definitely. And as they will make music without him anyway, that wouldn't affect him.


Jerm has been friends with Hayley for over a decade. I don't think he's going to break up with her or Taylor. He's just got a family now.


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## Graveyard (Oct 23, 2015)

Kerik_S said:


> Jerm has been friends with Hayley for over a decade. I don't think he's going to break up with her or Taylor. He's just got a family now.


Needless to say, I know nothing about them. So I can't tell. Sorry.


----------

