# Please help me identify my MBTI type



## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

_*Hello everyone!*_ :happy:

I have taken loads of online tests, trying to figure out my MMBI type, but I haven't been able to come to a conclusion, due to the variety of the results. I would, therefore, appreciate it a lot if you would employ your collective expertise and experience to identify my personality type.
 
In order to help you, I will post in two separate posts *a*. my answers to Herp's "What's my type" questionnaire, and *b*. the results from the tests I thought they were the most serious ones.

Please note that I'm not a native speaker of English.


____________________________*a*_______________________________

_*1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?*_

Most test results (see second post) type me as either ISFJ or INFP. Based on the descriptions of these two types I read on the web, I'm not an:

a. INFP, because I'm not as intuitive, dreamy, artistic, creative, poetic, endlessly selfless and self-sacrificing in order to heal and help others, more heart-than-head, disorganized, and "incapable" of dealing with hard facts and logic (quite the contrary), as INFPs are supposed to be.

b. ISFJ, because I'm not as hard-working (don't have either the physical or the emotional stamina), tolerant of routine, obsessed with detail, dependable, down-to-earth, allergic to ideas and abstract concepts (quite the contrary) as ISFJs are supposed to be.

_*2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?*_

God, Meaning, inner peace, harmony of thoughts and actions, knowledge, ways to alleviate the suffering of all living beings, stability and security. Why? Well, it's not a rational choice. My entire self, my inner nature compels me to yearn for these things.

_*3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.*_

I'm thinking about my time at university. I was *a*. living alone, and was thus 100% free to pursue my preferred lifestyle (for example, I didn't have my parents purposely throwing my recycling bags in the ordinary garbage), and *b*. doing one of the things I love the most, learning, and thus coming closer to finding answers (or more exciting questions!) to life's big questions (not a trivial knowledge fan here). I really miss that constant contact with new and exciting ideas. I also miss that false sense of living in the world (with all its ugliness and viciousness), and yet, at the same, being away from it, in a semi-secluded environment of exciting ideas and minds.

_*4) What makes you feel inferior?*_

Performing worse than the average person on a given task. Ranking below average in a group.

_*5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)*_

First is following my ideals and beliefs, then come the pros-cons and the impact that this decision might have on my family, friends, and loved ones.

*6) *_*When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?*_

My emphasis is on perfection, and superiority of the outcome. I like to have full control of a project, from the beginning to the final outcome, unless I know for certain that a particular aspect of the project needs to be assigned to a person that will deliver a better result than I will.
*
7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?*

I don't recall the last time I had a lot of fun. In fact, I'm "allergic" to the very notion of "fun", as it is commonly understood. I prefer to have a meaningful time. I mostly remember images and feelings from the beautiful and meaninful times I've had in my life. I'm least likely to remember the clothes people were wearing, and the exact conversations we had.

*8)* _*When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theorize, to memorize, etc)*_

I'm more prone to memorize. My brain takes snapshots of the texts I read and records the things I hear.

*9) How organized do you to think of yourself as?*

I have a very organized mp3/e-book/cd/book/magazine/dvd collection. I also have a very organized "My Documents" folder and email inbox. Moreover, I have folders with all the important documents of my life. I often make "to-do" lists and create reminders on my mobile phone's calendar for important appointments (or for magazines/newspapers that are published fortnightly), despite the fact that I rarely -if ever- forget the things I need to do or my important appointments. On the other hand, my room is usually messy and I don't make very detailed plans. Overall, I think I'm more organized than not.

_*10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?*_

I first try to understand the principles behind them, as well as examine how they relate to other relevant ideas (as some sort of indirect validity check). Then, If they make sense, I will look for information that supports (or disproves) them.

_*11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being 
yourself?*_

The most important thing for me is making sure that I follow what I believe in. I'm not sure I understand what "being youself" means; I don't feel the need to express myself, my individuality and my "uniqueness". The second most important thing is making sure that everyone is doing fine, in the sense that they are alright physically and psychologically, and that they don't need any help. I'm not interested in whether people belong to a given group -it's their choice and their "problem".
_*
12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?*_

I generally think before I speak, unless someone says that makes me explode, usually something that is a big lie or very unfair to somebody. I absolutely prefer one-on-one communication, as I tend to focus intensely on the person I communicate with.

_*13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?*_

I definitely need to know where I'm jumping before leaping, and that's why I do A LOT of research before I make a decision. I dislike the unknown and ambiguity. In most cases, action does indeed speak louder than words. You can preach philanthropy for days, and achieve a fraction of the motivational and educational effect you would achieve by offering a cup of food with your own hands.

_*14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favorite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?*_

I would stay at home and watch the show, unless it was a REALLY special occasion / night out. I don't/can't do things at such short notice. I'm the personification of inertia.

_*15) How do you act when you're stressed out?*_

I become tense, jittery, and overly focused on the stressor. If I don't find a way to deal it with immediately, I lose hope and stop panicking (internally). After a few hours, I feel psychologically and physically exhausted. When stressed out, I'm also very likely to comfort eat. I don't handle stress well at all.

_*16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?*_

I dislike different things about different personalities. That said, I really don't like people who are "evil". I understand/define "Evil" as that persistent malevolent inner quality that expresses itself outwardly in the form of physical and emotional aggressiveness/abuse.

_*17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?*_

The only thing I really like talking with other people is about my intellectual interests. 
_*
18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life
*_
Pubs/bars/cafeterias, fashion, jewelry, perfumes, sports, cars, gossip, and my external appearance. I generally pay the least attention to the material stuff, especially those that are considered the symbols of the "successful" person.

_*19) How do your friends perceive you? What is wrong about their perception? ? What would your friends never say about your personality ?*_

My friends would never say I'm extroverted, unintelligent, ignorant, not serious, and unethical. The exact opposite of that is how my friends perceive me -as far as I can tell. If there's some discrepancy betweem how they view me and how I think I am is the extent to which they feel they have "grown roots" inside me. I think of them more often than they most likely think I do, and I have stronger feelings (and attachment) for them than they possibly think I do.

_*20) You got a whole day to do whatever you like. What kind of activities do you feel like doing?*_

I'd take a long, solitary walk by the sea-side, where I would listen to lots of music (mostly classical, electronic, and ethnic), and think about the past/present/future (mine and of the world). I think I'd daydream a bit too. Then I'd have lunch by the sea-side, while reading my favorite newspapers. After that, I would return home, I'd sleep for a couple of hours, and then I'd read a book or magazine. Next, I'd check my emails and social networks profiles, I'd reply to any messages, perhaps I'd chat with / call a friend, and quite likely would call my parents to check how they are. In the night, I would read something spiritual and pray for an hour or so.


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## Herp (Nov 25, 2010)

First of all, I have some things to point out.

You have shown *a lot* of data. Tests, scores, results, charts and so, but have barely spoken about how you view yourself. Understand that your motivations and aspirations are _part_ of who you are, but not who you are. 

In order to give a guess on your type, I'd suggest you answering the following questions thoroughly, which is a standard procedure in these forums, developed specially to help you in your self discovery quest. So, here are the questions.



> 1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
> 
> 2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?
> 
> ...


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

*Part Two: Test Results*

____________________________*b*_______________________________
*
WARNING: Lots of data below! :happy:*

____________________________________________________________*


1. Cognitive Profile*

1. keys2cognition.com/explore.htm
 


> *Cognitive Process**, Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)*
> 
> introverted Feeling (Fi) ****************************************************** (54.3)
> excellent use
> ...


2. cognitivequiz.com/quiz.html



> *Your Cognitive Functions:
> 
> * Introverted Sensation (Si) ||||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.62
> Introverted Feeling (Fi) |||||||||||||||||||||||| 11.17
> ...


*

2. Results from MBTI-inspired tests

*a. *ISFJ *@ 1. _"...the official Keirsey-Bates personality test at 70 questions long."_ (okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=16567335035599898597 ): *9% I to E, 58% N to S, 24% F to T, and 37% J to P*

2. "Mental Muscle Diagram Indicator" (MMDI) - teamtechnology.co.uk/mmdi/questionnaire/

3. kisa.ca/personality/ - *(I) 86% -* *(S) 77% - **(F) 65% - **(J) 59%*

4. personalitytest.net/types/index.htm , and 5. 41q.com


b. *INTJ *@ "16 Personality Type Test" ( 16typequiz.com/quiz.html ):




> *Your Preferences:*
> Introversion (I): ||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%
> Extroversion (E): ||| 10%
> Intuition (N): |||||||||||||||| 62.5%
> ...


 c. *INTP *@humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp : (*I*)89% - (*N*) 12% - (*T*) 12% - (*P*) 11% 

d. *I*X*TJ *@ "Thomson-Maidenbaum Personality Inventory" ( greenlightwiki.com/lenore/inventory.html ): *E*(2)* - I*(12), *S*(7) - *N*(7), *T*(9) - *F*(5), *P*(6)- *J*(8)

e. *I**N**FP *@"Gray-Wheelwright-Winer Type Indicator" ( winerfoundation.org/gwtest/gwtest.html ): *E*(1)* - I*(9), *S*(9) - *N*(11), *T*(9) - *F*(11), *P*(9)- *J*(11)

*
3. Results from Enneagram tests

*a. *2w1, 5w4, 9w1* ( enneagramquiz.com/quiz.html )

b. *2* (58%)* 5 *(55%)* 9 *(50%) [*1 *(45%)] - Variant *SO/SP/SX* ( Advanced test @ similarminds.com/cgi-bin/sminds2/similarminds2.pl ) :




> Type *1* Perfectionism |||||||||||| *45%* Type *2* Helpfulness  |||||||||||||| *58%* Type *3* Image Focus |||||| *22%* Type *4* Hypersensitivity |||||| *28%* Type *5* Detachment |||||||||||||| *55%* Type *6* Anxiety |||||||||| *40%* Type *7* Adventurousness |||| * 20%* Type *8* Aggressiveness |||| *18% * Type *9* Calmness |||||||||||| *50%*


c. *5w6* @

1. eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/dotest.php 2. pstypes.blogspot.com/2009/11/pstypes-enneagram-test.html : 




> Type Five: 45
> Type Two: 39
> Type Six: 39
> Type One: 38
> ...


d. *4 *@ 1. RHETI Sampler ( enneagraminstitute.com/dis_sample_36.asp ), 2. personalityonline.com/tests/engine.html?testid=2 (180 questions)

_________________________________________________________________________________

*
Feel free to ask me anything you think will help you decide on my type. Thank you very much for taking the time to read through my posts! :happy::happy::happy:*



*CORRECTION*: _*15) How do you act when you're stressed out?*_

I become tense, jittery, and overly focused on the stressor. If I don't find a way to deal it with immediately, I lose hope and *START (not "stop")* panicking (internally). [...]


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

*Anyone???*

Anyone??? :sad:

(my first and last bumping of my thread)


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

i'm a little stumped, but i'm gonna say ISFJ, if you don't know what being yourself means i would say that eliminates you from INFP, not that you can't have a little ways of INFP, we can all have a little ways in each of the types, but we mainly are one dominant type over all the others. I think you mix up Fe/Si with Fi, it's not uncommon in ISFJ's to think that is Fi. And you are not into much intuitive and both your cognitive tests show low Ne and low Ni, which means one of them is your inferior, which is Ne for ISFJ, and the other one is the shadow function Ni of your inferior function Ne, thus called the devilish function, you should not be able to really understand what Ni means nor really relate to it?

Ni - INTROVERTED INTUITING
Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects.
Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Dreamer, and call you an INFJ with an unusually high S. 

I find that the easiest way to narrow down someone when typing them is to look at the four temperaments (SJ,SP,NT,NF). From what you've said about hating evil, wanting to help all people and enjoying theoretical thinking, I would put you in the NF category. One sentence that stuck out to me especially was, "I think of them more often than they most likely think I do, and I have stronger feelings (and attachment) for them than they possibly think I do". That is the definition of Fe.

Now, I and J. I see J in the structure of your post, something that I would normally call S if not for the content you've posted. You lay everything out, it's clear you've done your homework, and the data is, to be honest, comprehensive to a fault (all of those fancy numbers can appear intimidating). Your S is rather interesting, because you both hint at and negate it. You say you memorize, but then you say you can't remember what your friends wear. You have beautiful formatting, but then talk about theoretical analysis. I think, then, that this is your J coming out.

At this point, it comes down to INFJ vs ENFJ, and you seem much more the introvert than the extrovert. Also, the cognitive processes for the INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se, which I believe fits you rather well (except for perhaps the Se).


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

THANK YOU very much for your reply @Dreamer777 ! I really appreciate your time and effort! :happy:

I'd first like to comment on the "being yourself" thing. There might be a cultural reason why I don't really understand what it means: The phrase "being yourself" may be used by all native speakers of English to describe a concept that is phrased differently in my language and culture.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that, especially in the US, "being yourself" implies a "sub-conscious" "adoration" of one's uniqueness. I don't think that "celebrating" your uniqueness makes any sense, because "you're unique; just like everyone else" (yes, I love quotes). And, on a deeper level, I'm afraid that this constant cultivation and adoration of uniqueness and individuality creates people who are egocentric (the root of all vice, and, consequently, societal ills). If Einstein had wasted his time cherishing his uniqueness and individuality, he would have achieved (and thus offered Humanity) none of the things he is venerated for.

If I 'm wrong, and "being yourself" means something healthy like "staying true to your ideas and beliefs" and "not going where the social wind blows" (i.e. having a moral and aesthetic backbone), then I am "being myself".


As for the cognitive functions: 

I had to read the description of Ni very carefully to understand(?) what it's all about, and I don't think I can relate to it.

I don't know if this helps at all, but based on my very basic understanding of each function, I can say with some confidence that I use them in this order (strongest to weakest):

Fi Fe Ti Te (judgement) 

Si Ne Se Ni (perception)


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

THANK YOU very much for your reply @Creevy ! I really appreciate your time and effort! :happy:



Creevy said:


> Now, I and J. I see J in the structure of your post, something that I would normally call S if not for the content you've posted. You lay everything out, it's clear you've done your homework, and the data is, to be honest, comprehensive to a fault (all of those fancy numbers can appear intimidating).


I really feel the need to express just how sorry I am for "making" you go through all that data. :sad: This is not something I feel as a result of you and @Herp pointing out just how "comprehensive to a fault" (I really liked the expression) the data was in that post. I was feeling bad about it the very moment I was putting it together, but felt I had to so, because I'm not a native speaker of English, and it is likely that a serious test will say more about a person than him/herself can express in a foreign language. Of course, having felt bad about it, I did my best to make all this information as easy to read as possible -enter "fancy numbers" (I guess you meant the extensive formatting). Being intimidated by lots of numbers and data myself, I have developed a strong preference for data that is presented in a very organized and visually appealing way. 



> Your S is rather interesting, because you both hint at and negate it. You say you memorize, but then you say you can't remember what your friends wear. You have beautiful formatting, but then talk about theoretical analysis. I think, then, that this is your J coming out.


Yes, I've noticed that contradiction too, but didn't want to edit the post just to avoid looking bad here. :happy: The truth is that I can never remember what my friends wear, yet my brain would record everything I was seeing and hearing at the lecture theatre. I think it becomes clearer now. I do have the ability to remember things, but it is used by my brain primarily for the things that I'm interested in.

As for the formatting vs. theoretical analysis contradiction: I'm not Noam Chomsky. I don't have the propensity for theoretical thinking that the average professional philosopher (or the philosophy aficionado) has. I don't walk around thinking/analyzing Hegel, Kant, or Wittgenstein in my head, and I can get tired -not bored- reading highly abstract texts. Also, I don't analyze chess tactics, software code, or complex systems inside my mind. I do, however, tend to be overly philosophical (my high school nickname was "the philosopher", as I later found out), attractred to ideas (new ones too), and lost in my thoughts. I am very interested in Philosophy, and I am a subscriber to the most popular, non-academic (it assumes little prior knowledge), monthly philosophical magazine.



> At this point, it comes down to INFJ vs ENFJ, and you seem much more the introvert than the extrovert.


I am VERY introverted. It's no surprise that in most tests my preference for introversion is between 80 and 90 percent.


A few more things that may help you type me:

a. My intellectual interests are: Philosophy (mostly Metaphysics, Ethics, and Epistemology), Theology (99% Christian and 1% Buddhist), Psychology (primarily Clinical Psychology), History, and International Relations. I'm also interested in Green and Ethical Living.

b. I can stay silent for hours, and talk very little with people (sometimes just the basics), until someone opens a conversation about one of my intellectual interests, in which case I can "miraculously" talk for hours and hours. I'm also very passionate when I talk about the things I believe in.

c. I have had a serious problem with procrastination. I'm still fighting it.

d. I can "read" people very accurately (8 out of 10 times). The moment I see a person for the first time, I can "feel" whether there's something wrong about him/her. It is a direct "feeling" about whether this person has something "dark" inside him/her (a hidden dark quality, let's say) or a malevolent/benevolent nature. This feels like being hit by a spiritual wind that flows from another person's chest area. I know this sounds very N, that's why I've thought of the possibility that this reading could be the result of a highly accurate and fast (to extent of seeming like intuition) Si that physiognomically examines people and then informs me about their quality with a feeling.

e. I was most likely an IFP child. The IFP description fits me as a child very well, with the exception of being artistic and creative. I would have written "definitely an IFP child" if I hadn't seen a lot of myself in the INJ child too. Later on, I was most likely an INFP teenager and young adult (until I was 21 or so). It seems, however, that during my time at university, and, after that, when I was faced with big life difficulties, I changed. Maybe the Dreamer was forced to make room for the Realist...

f. I'm a member of Mensa (in case this explains anything).

g. I am pessimistic and melancholic.

h. Since the age of 15, when I read a book about a famous modern saint, I have felt a "calling" to become a monk.

i. I can use such language: "God is the metaphysical black hole at the center of my psychological galaxy: with its infinite gravity it devours most of my thoughts and feelings." - Taken from my first, edited post here. I don't use such language on a daily basis; only when I'm talking about something that greatly inspires me.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> I really feel the need to express just how sorry I am for "making" you go through all that data. :sad: This is not something I feel as a result of you and @Herp pointing out just how "comprehensive to a fault" (I really liked the expression) the data was in that post. I was feeling bad about it the very moment I was putting it together, but felt I had to so, because I'm not a native speaker of English, and it is likely that a serious test will say more about a person than him/herself can express in a foreign language. Of course, having felt bad about it, I did my best to make all this information as easy to read as possible -enter "fancy numbers" (I guess you meant the extensive formatting). Being intimidated by lots of numbers and data myself, I have developed a strong preference for data that is presented in a very organized and visually appealing way.


Haha, I'm sorry man. I didn't mean to make it sound like these numbers were the worst thing in the world. Truth be told, they made me smile. It was just one of those scenarios where someone was like, "Oh, you want the file details? HERE!" It was probably a good thing, to be honest, it was just a metaphorical smack in the face of information. But it was a better thing to include it, then to give too little info 



> As for the formatting vs. theoretical analysis contradiction: I'm not Noam Chomsky. I don't have the propensity for theoretical thinking that the average professional philosopher (or the philosophy aficionado) has. I don't walk around thinking/analyzing Hegel, Kant, or Wittgenstein in my head, and I can get tired -not bored- reading highly abstract texts. Also, I don't analyze chess tactics, software code, or complex systems inside my mind. I do, however, tend to be overly philosophical (my high school nickname was "the philosopher", as I later found out), attractred to ideas (new ones too), and lost in my thoughts. I am very interested in Philosophy, and I am a subscriber to the most popular, non-academic (it assumes little prior knowledge), monthly philosophical magazine.


Ah, but that is theoretical analysis as well. And what's more, it's the same analysis that I gravitate towards. What you described first was the analysis of the physical realm, and what you described second was the analysis of the spiritual realm. The first tends to be for NTs, the latter for NFs. Think of it this way (as far as I understand it): the N is the letter that keeps your head in the clouds, has you thinking abstractly, wondering about different possibilities, etc etc. The T in combination with N will have you do this about _things_, because T is about understanding. The F in combination with N will have you do this about _ideals_, because the F is all about the connection of emotion.



> d. I can "read" people very accurately (8 out of 10 times). The moment I see a person for the first time, I can "feel" whether there's something wrong about him/her. It is a direct "feeling" about whether this person has something "dark" inside him/her (a hidden dark quality, let's say) or a malevolent/benevolent nature. This feels like being hit by a spiritual wind that flows from another person's chest area. I know this sounds very N, that's why I've thought of the possibility that this reading could be the result of a highly accurate and fast (to extent of seeming like intuition) Si that physiognomically examines people and then informs me about their quality with a feeling.


THAT is very much a defining characteristic for a lot of NFs. Si is going to tell you about their physical demeanor; it simply won't tell you about their "aura" the way N does.



> e. I was most likely an IFP child. The IFP description fits me as a child very well, with the exception of being artistic and creative. I would have written "definitely an IFP child" if I hadn't seen a lot of myself in the INJ child too. Later on, I was most likely an INFP teenager and young adult (until I was 21 or so). It seems, however, that during my time at university, and, after that, when I was faced with big life difficulties, I changed. Maybe the Dreamer was forced to make room for the Realist...


This explained very much to me. You're an INFP. Letters (in my opinion, although some people debate this) don't change. What charged you before will always charge you, and vice versa. Now, you can develop strength in other letters, but that doesn't mean it changes your functioning.

Take me for instance. My Fe used to be STRONG (likely too strong) and as a result I was known as the "crybaby" (this was in 6th and 7th grade, mind). So, I consciously repressed my F, and tried to "replace" it with T (of course, at the time I knew not this jargon, but that's basically what I was trying to do). As a result, I became what I call a synthetic INTJ. BUT, it drained me so much. I got into a rather dark area of life, and I couldn't understand why because my plan had worked "perfectly". It was only recently, when I was in a position that I felt comfortable releasing my Fe again, that I realized what had been wrong with me all these years. 

However, there was a silver lining. Because of the reinforcement of my T, My tertiary function (Ti) is stronger than most INFJs, and I also strengthened my Te. I approached it in an unhealthy way, but what I tried to do was actually quite good for me.

Now, why am I boring you with a life story, lol? Two reasons. First, I believe that you went through a similar (albeit much, much healthier) process with your P into J. You learned out of necessity how to reinforce your J, although you (unlike me) left room for your natural P. THIS is why your formatting was so spot on, and why you gave so many numbers. J isn't a natural thing for you; you had to learn it, and so your form was sort of sloppy (although in this case, sloppy can mean overly-neat, if that makes sense). It's not that you messed up, it's that you were trying to do something that doesn't come naturally to you. In my opinion, at any rate.

The second reason I told you all this was a test. Think back to how it made you feel, my struggle and the eventual overcoming of my challenge. Were you invested? Proud of me? Apathetic? Disgusted?

Chances are, if you were happy that I overcame my dilemma in more than a passing way, and appreciated the abstract jargon and attempt to better myself through spiritual reasoning, you really are an NF.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Yeah, i agree after reading all your new posts since the beginning it does sound like a toss up of INFJ and INFP, but you dont' understand Ni, that is dom for INFJ, are you sure you dont' understand Ni?

Ti is the devilish function of INFP's

here is Ti:

Ti - INTROVERTED THINKING 
Analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles.
Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> THAT is very much a defining characteristic for a lot of NFs. Si is going to tell you about their physical demeanor; it simply won't tell you about their "aura" the way N does.


The key word here is "aura". I'm not sure I believe in it as it is theorized by the New Age "gurus", but it certainly describes what I'm "reading" when I meet other people -especially for the first time. I wanted to use it -it felt natural- in my description, but I chose not to, because I didn't want to push the reader towards an NF conclusion. In the end, I used an even more powerful, yet more accurate description, and I most likely achieved exactly what I was trying to avoid. lol!

I can't help but commenting on just how surprisingly extremely shallow the Si process seems to me in this context, the way you described its function. If that's the only thing it does, than I'm definitely an NF.



> What charged you before will always charge you, and vice versa. Now, you can develop strength in other letters, but that doesn't mean it changes your functioning.


This is one of the most illuminating things I've read about personality typing so far. "Charge" is the key word/notion for typing yourself. Respect! 



> Now, why am I boring you with a life story, lol?


Are you??? :wink:



> First, I believe that you went through a similar (albeit much, much healthier) process with your P into J. You learned out of necessity how to reinforce your J, although you (unlike me) left room for your natural P. THIS is why your formatting was so spot on, and why you gave so many numbers. J isn't a natural thing for you; you had to learn it, and so your form was sort of sloppy (although in this case, sloppy can mean overly-neat, if that makes sense). It's not that you messed up, it's that you were trying to do something that doesn't come naturally to you.


I must note that I didn't consciously try to reinforce my J. It just happened, without my realizing it. All I was doing was trying to adapt and respond to the requirements and challenges of my studies and my life.

I think I see what you mean by "sort of sloppy"; the data was disproportionately formatted for the context of a forum.

Your explanation sounds very plausible to me (though I don't work for "Mythbusters!" , but it assumes that there is a P-J continuum and that one can slide on it (through training / without affecting the other "letters"), a proposition which I'm sure will meet the resistance of most hardcore cognitive functions fans. If I understand what you're saying correctly, it is possible that I can be an INFJ, if in a given period I'm more J than P, right? Can I likewise, become an ISFP or ISFJ, if for some reason my positions on the N-S and P-J continua change?



> The second reason I told you all this was a test. Think back to how it made you feel, my struggle and the eventual overcoming of my challenge. Were you invested? Proud of me? Apathetic? Disgusted?


I like intelligent people that do intelligent things. :wink: Thumbs up! 

I felt invested, if I understand the meaning of this noun accurately. I felt sadness and compassion for what you suffered at school and for your struggle. And in the end, I felt relief, because of your eventual overcoming of your challenge.



> Chances are, if you were happy that I overcame my dilemma in more than a passing way, and appreciated the abstract jargon and attempt to better myself through spiritual reasoning, you really are an NF.


"Happy" is a difficult word for me, because I'm a melancholic and not an easily excited person. However, the word "relief" that I wrote previously, may be, in this context, my psychological equivalent, in intesity, of the emotional state you described with the word "happy", in which case I meet that particular criterion you set for qualifying as an NF. Isn't that what you also mean by "more than a passing way"?

Secondly, I have no problem with jargon, as long as I know what each term means. Sometimes, I even prefer jargon because it produces more dense communication, thus allowing for more things to be communicated within a given time frame. And yes, the are also times that I find abstract jargon fascinating, especially in Philosophy, Religion and Psychology. 

In your description, I "appreciated" the abstract jargon because it produced the densest possible communication of complex concepts, that would otherwise require a 10 sq. feet post area to be discussed in ordinary words. Is this you had in mind when you wrote "appreciated the abstract jargon"?

Finally, I'm honestly not sure whether I understand what you mean by "appreciated [...] attempt to better myself through spiritual reasoning", so I can't comment on it. All I can say for sure is that I'm glad you overcame your challenge and returned to your true nature.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

> I can't help but commenting on just how surprisingly extremely shallow the Si process seems to me in this context, the way you described its function. If that's the only thing it does, than I'm definitely an NF.


Shallow perhaps, because it works with the physical realm. But that doesn't mean it's useless. Si is very important with memory, the keen appreciation of details, facts and figures, the understanding of information (although this can border on T). You speak very good English, despite it not being your native language. What allowed this to occur was your Si, remembering and processing the grammatical intricacies of the English language. Of course, the understanding of the language was T, but the recollection and processing of the language is your Si. 



> I must note that I didn't consciously try to reinforce my J. It just happened, without my realizing it. All I was doing was trying to adapt and respond to the requirements and challenges of my studies and my life.


Oh, absolutely. But just because you didn't mean to strengthen your J doesn't mean it didn't happen. Think of it sort of like going to the beach when the tide is strong. If you're in the water, the tide WILL carry you how you need to be carried. You may help it along by swimming with it (and therefore making a conscious decision to improve your J) or you may try to fight it (by repressing certain functions unhealthily). But, it WILL occur.



> Your explanation sounds very plausible to me (though I don't work for "Mythbusters!" , but it assumes that there is a P-J continuum and that one can slide on it (through training / without affecting the other "letters"), a proposition which I'm sure will meet the resistance of most hardcore cognitive functions fans. If I understand what you're saying correctly, it is possible that I can be an INFJ, if in a given period I'm more J than P, right? Can I likewise, become an ISFP or ISFJ, if for some reason my positions on the N-S and P-J contiua change?


Mmm, not quite. I'll try to explain it once more with an analogy (if these don't work for you, let me know. I always learn best through analogies).

Imagine you are a proficient swordsman. You live in feudal Japan or something, and are a master with the blade. BUT, you decide that you want to learn to become a marksman as well. You want to become as good with the bow as you are with your sword. So, you practice at it, and although it isn't initially easy for you, you eventually learn the art of shooting. However, and this is important, _it doesn't make you any less of a swordsman_. You still hold all the strengths of knowing how to use a sword. You haven't traded in one skill for another, you now merely possess them both.

Similarly, it's not that in order to develop your J, you have to give up your P. It's just that now you have your natural P abilities, and you have developed J skills as well. Will you be as good, or as comfortable with your J (the bow) as you are with your natural P (the sword)? Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean you can't be proficient with it.



> However, the word "relief" that I wrote previously, may be, in this context, my psychological equivalent, in intesity, of the emotional state you described with the word "happy", in which case I meet that particular criterion you set for qualifying as an NF. Isn't that what you also mean by "more than a passing way"?


Yes, exactly right. What was key here is that you became emotionally invested. I believe that you could, at least to a degree, place yourself in my shoes and become empathetic, even if you've never faced anything similar. THIS is the real strength of the NF; the ability to feel what they have not yet felt, through the emotions of others.



> Is this you had in mind when you wrote "appreciated the abstract jargon"?


Partly, but I believe the fault was mine, with a less than perfect deliverance of what I meant to say. All I meant by that was, could you register and comprehend the fact that I was talking about my emotional state in a very physical manner? Were you able to relate fairly easily with the idea that I took my emotions (which I think we can agree are abstract, borderline indefinable phenomena), place them into a confined area, and then speak with them in a way that both kept them finite for understanding purposes and allowed their true form as infinite beings to flow through my speech?

If so, you are definitely an NF, and you DEFINITELY possess a strong Ni. Ni in its most basic form, as I understand, is the ability to take abstract ideas, process them in a way that gives them pseudo-concrete definitions, and then relate them back as finite concepts. If you feel strong in this (which you definitely seem to be, from the way you replaced my usage of happy with relieved, and then gave a legitimate reason as to why) then your Ni is strong.



> Finally, I'm honestly not sure whether I understand what you mean by "appreciated [...] attempt to better myself through spiritual reasoning", so I can't comment on it. All I can say for sure is that I'm glad you overcame your challenge and returned to your true nature.


All I meant by that was, are you appreciative of the fact that I tried to become a better person through emotional concepts, rather then my physical skills or understanding? So, do you believe that it was better for me to learn something about myself through this experience, or would it have been a better use of my time to learn something like the makeup of a computer processor, or train to run three miles without stopping? In this sentence, I was talking about the emotional, quasi-ethereal state of the soul, as opposed to the physical realm of the body or the logical realm of the mind.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> Yeah, i agree after reading all your new posts since the beginning it does sound like a toss up of INFJ and INFP, but you dont' understand Ni, that is dom for INFJ, are you sure you dont' understand Ni?


Hi again, @Dreamer777!

The truth is that I've read so many and so different descriptions of the cognitive processes (which I only found out a few days ago), that the only thing I can be sure of is that I don't fully understand and "feel" what each function is all about. Likewise, I haven't quite been able to understand what the "devilish function" is.

Based on the definitions I read on cognitiveprocesses.com (the ones you're using too), I can say that I don't really understand Ni, and, in any case, that I don't relate to it. 



> Ti is the devilish function of INFP's


Since I don't really understand what the "devilish function" is all about, I can't tell you whether Ti is mine.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> Hi again, @Dreamer777!
> 
> The truth is that I've read so many and so different descriptions of the cognitive processes (which I only found out a few days ago), that the only thing I can be sure of is that I don't fully understand and "feel" what each function is all about. Likewise, I haven't quite been able to understand what the "devilish function" is.
> 
> ...


 
The devilish function is the shadow function of the inferior function, we don't hardly use it at all. Like for me as INFP i don't hardly use nor understand Ti.

To be an INFJ, Ni is dominant, so here's a fun article on Ni verses Ne, see if it helps to shed light for you? 
And INFP's use Ne alot it is the secondary function, we use Ne all the time. So read that and see what you think?


http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/84128-i-wrote-article-ne-vs-ni.html


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> Shallow perhaps, because it works with the physical realm. But that doesn't mean it's useless.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but my perception of Si being shallow was only in the context of reading people, compared to how rich and deep the NF experience is.

I'd be out of mind if I thought that Si is a shallow and useless process in general -it's my second most developed function! 



> You speak very good English, despite it not being your native language. What allowed this to occur was your Si, remembering and processing the grammatical intricacies of the English language. Of course, the understanding of the language was T, but the recollection and processing of the language is your Si.


That's a very interesting and illuminating remark. It also explains why I rarely, if ever, make spelling mistakes in my native language, as well as the other I languages speak. And why I have a rich vobaculary too.

What Si doesn't do, however, is find a way to make me less uncomfortable with the seemingly bragging quality that my last two sentences have. 



> I'll try to explain it once more with an analogy (if these don't work for you, let me know. I always learn best through analogies).


It's ok, analogies work really well for me. Like yourself, I use them a lot when I'm trying to explain something difficult to another person. Also, they are one of my favorite sections of IQ tests. Fish is to dolphin as Bird is to ___ . 



> Imagine you are a proficient swordsman [...] _it doesn't make you any less of a swordsman_. You still hold all the strengths of knowing how to use a sword. You haven't traded in one skill for another, you now merely possess them both.
> 
> Similarly, it's not that in order to develop your J, you have to give up your P. It's just that now you have your natural P abilities, and you have developed J skills as well. Will you be as good, or as comfortable with your J (the bow) as you are with your natural P (the sword)? Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean you can't be proficient with it.


THAT, my friend, is a FIRST CLASS analogy and explanation. Bravo!



> Partly, but I believe the fault was mine, with a less than perfect deliverance of what I meant to say. All I meant by that was, could you register and comprehend the fact that I was talking about my emotional state in a very physical manner? Were you able to relate fairly easily with the idea that I took my emotions (which I think we can agree are abstract, borderline indefinable phenomena), place them into a confined area, and then speak with them in a way that both kept them finite for understanding purposes and allowed their true form as infinite beings to flow through my speech?
> 
> If so, you are definitely an NF, and you DEFINITELY possess a strong Ni. Ni in its most basic form, as I understand, is the ability to take abstract ideas, process them in a way that gives them pseudo-concrete definitions, and then relate them back as finite concepts. If you feel strong in this (which you definitely seem to be, from the way you replaced my usage of happy with relieved, and then gave a legitimate reason as to why) then your Ni is strong.


I know that this may sound like a fake compliment, BUT you, my friend, have a talent for grasping abstract concepts and popularizing them by means of analogies or superb descriptions, aided by an above average ability to write concisely. I'm honestly impressed!

Yes, I did appreciate your abstract jargon. I could relate to the fact that you skillfully used these abstract concepts (i.e. the cognitive functions), as if they were concrete objects, to describe accurately and concisely a very complex and non-concrete internal situation (the emotions, the struggle and the overcoming of it), thus showing that you both understood these concepts theoretically (mind) and "felt" (intuition) them too.

Now, my N is probably not as strong as yours, but I do think that I'm somewhat more NF than SF. The reason why you see me being reluctant to accept that I'm an NF is because my test results frequently typed me as ISFJ, and as I replied in the first question of Herp's personality form, _"I'm not as intuitive _*[the fact that I "read" people is, of course*,* a big exception]*_ dreamy, artistic, creative, poetic, endlessly selfless and self-sacrificing in order to heal and help others, more heart-than-head, disorganized, and 'incapable' of dealing with hard facts and logic (quite the contrary), as INFPs are supposed to be._" What do you think?



> All I meant by that was, are you appreciative of the fact that I tried to become a better person through emotional concepts, rather then my physical skills or understanding? So, do you believe that it was better for me to learn something about myself through this experience, or would it have been a better use of my time to learn something like the makeup of a computer processor, or train to run three miles without stopping? In this sentence, I was talking about the emotional, quasi-ethereal state of the soul, as opposed to the physical realm of the body or the logical realm of the mind.


I absolutely do not believe that it would have been a better use of your time to learn something like the makeup of a computer processor, or train to run three miles without stopping! How can anyone even compare the two options?! 

I'm not sure, however, that I can relate to the sentence "become a better person through emotional concepts" -perhaps I don't perceive its meaning the same way you do. In my view, if you want to better yourself, the first you need to do is to get to know yourself through the observation of your feelings, thoughts, and behaviors. Then, once you have a clear picture of what is """problematic""" in you, you need to search for ways to heal it. You should preferably visit a psychologist, but if that's not possible (or desirable), you should search the internet for relevant information or, at least, for people with similar experiences. You shouldn't leave yourself alone, without external help, trying to heal itself through "emotional concepts", because *you* are part of your problem, and your internal perceptions are likely to be distorted or biased at the very least.

I emphasized the possibility of my understanding differently that sentence of yours, because later on you probably rephrased it and clarified that _"I was talking about the emotional, quasi-ethereal state of the soul"_, instead of the physical or the strictly logical. Let me know if this example from my life fits the distinction you are making: 

One evening (I don't actually remember the time of the conversation; this is just when he would return at home), when I was in high school, my father asked me why I was "down". I told him I was depressed, but could not and did not want to explain to him the reason why, because a. what was happening inside me was too complex to describe to him and b. I knew beforehand that he would offer me a """solution""" like, "go out and have fun/sex!" or "find a girlfriend and have sex!" (as he had done in the past) and that would "kill me". What I needed was someone who could help me discover my inner world and, most importantly, help me deal with its negative sides. That's why I eventually visited a psychologist.

Is this what you had in mind? The inner/mental/spiritual/ethereal versus the brutally physical ("go out", "have fun/sex")?

______________________________

I've started losing hope that we will be able to type me with a reasonable degree of confidence. The problem is the contradiction between my test results and the conclusions that can be drawn based on what I write here. All I can say is that I answered the questions in each test VERY CAREFULLY, making sure that I don't mix who I really am with who I'd like to be. Needless to say, I've done the same thing with my posts here.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

just food for thought... you like Creevy's style of deep precise informative info, which means you relate well to her type, which Creevy is INFJ, and honestly, when i first saw your user name and avatar pic, the first thing went through my mind was that looks INFJ, and now through all the conversing, it shows you are very complex and always doubting your type because you are so complex and cannot simply accept a type easily without debating and discussing and thinking over and over and over, which is very typical of INFJ's. However INTP's can be very much like this also. 

From the start i have thought about INTP along the way as well. Something significant has unfolded along the way in all the conversing, you say you are week with Ni and somewhat strong in Si. INTP is Ti Ne Si Fe, it could be that you and Creevy converse well because you share Ti, you being the INTP and she being the INFJ?


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> I've started losing hope that we will be able to type me with a reasonable degree of confidence. The problem is the contradiction between my test results and the conclusions that can be drawn based on what I write here. All I can say is that I answered the questions in each test VERY CAREFULLY, making sure that I don't mix who I really am with who I'd like to be. Needless to say, I've done the same thing with my posts here.


I disagree completely, that you are unable to be typed. Indeed, each post you make allows us to type you more and more clearly. Don't look at the personality test results, my friend. They're _wrong_. It has nothing to do with you answering the questions incorrectly, the tests are simply faulty. They try to overgeneralize what each of these letters stand for in an attempt to send it out farther to the masses. They trade depth for clarity, and in this situation that makes the tests (especially the free ones) illegitimate.

Trust US, the people who have spent time to understand the meaning behind the functions and are taking time to examine your individual scenario, over some random person who scribbled a random test on an eBook. Seriously, if you cannot let go of the chains that is the free online test results, you will constantly worried. It typed me as an INTJ, and an ENTJ before. Ha!



> Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but my perception of Si being shallow was only in the context of reading people, compared to how rich and deep the NF experience is.


In a way. N (and more commonly Ne) is going to tell you how are person is through creative analysis. You'd look at a person and see auras, and just "get that feeling" about them. Si and Se is going to tell you about them through the physical realm. For example, you could see a wedding ring not on their finger, but a white spot where a ring should be worn, and deduce that they are married but are trying not to show it. Or, you could see the posture of their stance and determine their mood.

S is much more Sherlock Holmes, whereas N is much more pseudo-psychic ability. Each have their place.



> Yes, I did appreciate your abstract jargon. I could relate to the fact that you skillfully used these abstract concepts (i.e. the cognitive functions), as if they were concrete objects, to describe accurately and concisely a very complex and non-concrete internal situation (the emotions, the struggle and the overcoming of it), thus showing that you both understood these concepts theoretically (mind) and "felt" (intuition) them too.


That is, at it's heart, the definition of Ni. I think you may be better at Ni than you give yourself credit for.



> The reason why you see me being reluctant to accept that I'm an NF is because my test results frequently typed me as ISFJ, and as I replied in the first question of Herp's personality form, _"I'm not as intuitive _*[the fact that I "read" people is, of course*,* a big exception]*_ dreamy, artistic, creative, poetic, endlessly selfless and self-sacrificing in order to heal and help others, more heart-than-head, disorganized, and 'incapable' of dealing with hard facts and logic (quite the contrary), as INFPs are supposed to be._" What do you think?


As stated before, ignore the test. It simply doesn't have the ability to read you like a human can. It's a fair starting point, but the brunt of your typing should be done through research, or by asking for help from those who have researched.

As for the rest, I think you're right. I don't think you're an INFP, I think you're an INFJ. What I thought was Si could easily be your Ti, as through introverted thinking you tend to be able to get a better grasp on certain skills that you learn (such as your languages).

INFJs can be artsy and creative, but their NF usually takes the form of trying to help the world reach "enlightenment". These are the people that are going to take a personality test twelve times, searching for secret meanings within the questions to better themselves as an individual.

One reason I say INFJs is because they can look like Ps to people who only look at the four letters (as opposed to the functions beneath them) and if an INFJ is put in a scholarly environment, they can easily learn to develop their T (hell, it happened to me. For the longest time I thought I was an INTJ). This would allow you to better rule with your head, instead of your heart, and may even help with your organizational skills. 

INFJs actually work very similarly to INTJs. The main difference is motive. INTJs will work hard to better improve the physical (and usually scientific or mathematic) realm. INFJs will work equally hard to better improve the collective spiritual realm (or, enlightenment). They both plan ahead, they both are very logical. INFJ could be called the type most likely to type as something else through a test. Why? Because THESE are the people constantly bettering their weaknesses and honing their strengths. They put the advancement of humanity above all else, and work hard to try to become as ideal as they can (sometimes to a fault)!

I'm going to break down your next paragraph bit by bit, and relate it to why I beleive you to be an INFJ.



> In my view, if you want to better yourself, the first you need to do is to get to know yourself through the observation of your feelings, thoughts, and behaviors. Then, once you have a clear picture of what is """problematic""" in you, you need to search for ways to heal it


Notice the logical way in which you broke down to a science how to better yourself (your words). THAT is the heart of INFJ. INFJ's use a scientific process to try to analyze something that couldn't be less scientific. You use the "first, then" speech that denoes listing and order. Imagine what were to happen in a science experiment was done in a less-than accurate order. It was be catastrophic, no? You gave that same rigidity to delving into the heart.



> You should preferably visit a psychologist, but if that's not possible (or desirable), you should search the internet for relevant information or, at least, for people with similar experiences. You shouldn't leave yourself alone, without external help, trying to heal itself through "emotional concepts", because *you* are part of your problem, and your internal perceptions are likely to be distorted or biased at the very least.


Oh man. Oh _man_! If I wasn't sold before, I certainly am now. An INFJs auxiliary function is Fe (extroverted feeling). That means that they feel the emotions of others, and replicate it. Essentially, they feel what their friends feel. If you think back to your opening post, and how you don't believe your friends think about you nearly as much as you think about them, this is why right here.

Now, Creevy, shut up and relate the two. OK, rude other Creevy, I will!

This Fe, being in your auxiliary, is fairly strong. In fact, it's stronger than your Ti. What does this mean? It means that _you need others to help make your decisions about yourself_. I'm going to take a guess and say that you're very good at giving objective advice to others. That's because you have the ability through your Ni-Fe combination to see the best way to help someone else. But, when it comes to yourself, you don't have a well-developed Fi. You need an external voice (such as that therapist or those online documents you were talking about) to coach you through the enlightenment process.

And Dreamer, I am in fact a man, lol.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> To be an INFJ, Ni is dominant, so here's a fun article on Ni verses Ne, see if it helps to shed light for you? And INFP's use Ne alot it is the secondary function, we use Ne all the time. So read that and see what you think?


Both the cognitive tests I took, showed that Ni is nowhere near being my dominant function, so that technically excludes the possibility of me being an INFJ.

I read this very informative article, and I concluded that I can relate more to Ne than to Ni.

It seems to me that the most important question to be asked is this: What is the best way to type someone? Do you give him a cognitive test and then try to see to squeeze him into the predetermined quartets of cognitive functions that correspond to the MBTI types? Or do you start from scratch, without any limitations, and try to discover whether this person is more I then E, N than S, F than T, and P than J? I'm troubled by the fact that there are people who believe that the former is the only, the orthodox way of typing someone.



> just food for thought... you like Creevy's style of deep precise informative info, which means you relate well to her type, which Creevy is INFJ, and honestly, when i first saw your user name and avatar pic, the first thing went through my mind was that looks INFJ, and now through all the conversing, it shows you are very complex and always doubting your type because you are so complex and cannot simply accept a type easily without debating and discussing and thinking over and over and over, which is very typical of INFJ's.


Your remarks are correct and I see what you mean. Being an INFP yourself, do you think that I'm more INFJ than INFP? Also, isn't it likely that I simply cannot accept a type easily not because I'm complex, but because, like a good INFP, I'm afraid of making the wrong choice (of type)?



> From the start i have thought about INTP along the way as well. Something significant has unfolded along the way in all the conversing, you say you are week with Ni and somewhat strong in Si. INTP is Ti Ne Si Fe, it could be that you and Creevy converse well because you share Ti, you being the INTP and she being the INFJ?


That's a very interesting proposition. If you read this ( typelogic.com/intp.html ) description of the INTP (you most likely don't need to! , you will be tempted to type me as an INTP, but I don't think I am one. I'm not THAT much of a thinker. Besides, both cognitive tests I took, show -correctly- A LOT of F. Fi and Fe are either 1st/3rd or 2nd/3rd.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> I disagree completely, that you are unable to be typed. Indeed, each post you make allows us to type you more and more clearly.


I can use a little encouragement every once in a while. Thanks. 



> Don't look at the personality test results, my friend. They're _wrong_. It has nothing to do with you answering the questions incorrectly, the tests are simply faulty. They try to overgeneralize what each of these letters stand for in an attempt to send it out farther to the masses. They trade depth for clarity, and in this situation that makes the tests (especially the free ones) illegitimate.


I don't believe that objective and impersonal measures such as tests, especially the free ones, are to be viewed as the ultimate authority in personality typing. You 're right. I do, however, as you yourself pointed out elsewhere in your post, believe that tests are a fair starting point, and, when they are designed by professionals (such as the one on keys2cognition.com), a good indicator.



> Trust US, the people who have spent time to understand the meaning behind the functions and are taking time to examine your individual scenario, over some random person who scribbled a random test on an eBook.


I AM (capitals for emphasis) the kind of person that respects the experts, to such a degree that it makes me more likely to consult one than most people I know. I really don't like know-it-alls, and I deeply value the concept of "expertise". Let me "remind" you how I opened my first post here:
_
"I would, therefore, appreciate it a lot if you would employ your *collective expertise and experience* to identify my personality type."_ 



> In a way. N (and more commonly Ne) is going to tell you how are person is through creative analysis. You'd look at a person and see auras, and just "get that feeling" about them. Si and Se is going to tell you about them through the physical realm. For example, you could see a wedding ring not on their finger, but a white spot where a ring should be worn, and deduce that they are married but are trying not to show it. Or, you could see the posture of their stance and determine their mood.
> 
> S is much more Sherlock Holmes, whereas N is much more pseudo-psychic ability. Each have their place.


Yet another perfect explanation by the usual suspect, @Creevy.  

When I meet a person, I first use N and then, immediately after that, S. I'll first get that "feeling", and then start (within milliseconds after that initial "feeling") noticing the posture of their stance and determine their mood, and whether their clothing and styling betray a certain type of person (the hippie, the yuppie, the leftist, the religious etc).



> That is, at it's heart, the definition of Ni. I think you may be better at Ni than you give yourself credit for.


The way you put it, I think you may be right in saying that I may be better at Ni than I give myself credit for. Still, I can't completely ignore the fact that Ni ranked last at the keys2cognition test. Would you completely disregard it?



> As for the rest, I think you're right. I don't think you're an INFP, I think you're an INFJ. What I thought was Si could easily be your Ti, as through introverted thinking you tend to be able to get a better grasp on certain skills that you learn (such as your languages).


That is an interesting (and clever) suggestion, however I don't think that my Ti is stronger than my Si. The fact, for example, that I very rarely make spelling mistakes points more to a stronger Si than a stronger Ti, as far as languages are concerned. I'm more likely to make a grammar/syntax mistake, than I'm likely to make a spelling one, which means that Si > Ti. What do you think?



> INFJs can be artsy and creative, but their NF usually takes the form of trying to help the world reach "enlightenment". These are the people that are going to take a personality test twelve times, searching for secret meanings within the questions to better themselves as an individual.


Again, that is a very interesting point you're making here! I don't, however, feel the need to undertake such "missionary" work on a global scale. The world "enlightenment" brought to my mind the great spiritual teachers of mankind, namely Jesus of Nazareth, the Buddha, and Socrates, and I don't think I'm in the same category with them *motivation-wise *(not class-wise). For the most part of my life, I had wanted to heal people. In the last 5 years, however, I've shifted from desiring to heal them (which is a profound intervention) to just wishing to consult them, and alleviating human and animal suffering on a global scale. Since my early teens, I've tended to be the personal counsellor of all my friends. Even now, people of all ages, even people twice my age, tend to consult me, and deeply value my opinions. I wish I could tell you more things about this, but I don't want to write them here [I am slightly(?) paranoid], and can't pm you either.



> and if an INFJ is put in a scholarly environment, they can easily learn to develop their T (hell, it happened to me. For the longest time I thought I was an INTJ). This would allow you to better rule with your head, instead of your heart, and may even help with your organizational skills.


This is exactly what happened to me during my time at university, although probably not to the extent that it happened to you. I was never tempted to perceive myself as a "Scientist" (INTJ). I can be like that at times, usually in an academic/intellectual environment, but it is not who I really am.



> INFJs actually work very similarly to INTJs. The main difference is motive. INTJs will work hard to better improve the physical (and usually scientific or mathematic) realm. INFJs will work equally hard to better improve the collective spiritual realm (or, enlightenment). They both plan ahead, they both are very logical. INFJ could be called the type most likely to type as something else through a test. Why? Because THESE are the people constantly bettering their weaknesses and honing their strengths. They put the advancement of humanity above all else, and work hard to try to become as ideal as they can (sometimes to a fault)!





> Notice the logical way in which you broke down to a science how to better yourself (your words). THAT is the heart of INFJ. INFJ's use a scientific process to try to analyze something that couldn't be less scientific. You use the "first, then" speech that denoes listing and order. Imagine what were to happen in a science experiment was done in a less-than accurate order. It was be catastrophic, no? You gave that same rigidity to delving into the heart.


Again, these are very enlightening -not just informative- pieces of text.



> Oh man. Oh _man_! If I wasn't sold before, I certainly am now. An INFJs auxiliary function is Fe (extroverted feeling). That means that they feel the emotions of others, and replicate it. Essentially, they feel what their friends feel. If you think back to your opening post, and how you don't believe your friends think about you nearly as much as you think about them, this is why right here.


Well, I do have a very strong Fe, but I can't judge whether it is my auxiliary function, and I'm thus an INFJ. It is, nonetheless, my 3rd strongest/most developed function.

Here's what I had written in my opening post: _"[...] the extent to which they feel they have "grown roots" inside me. I think of them more often than they most likely think I do, and I have stronger feelings (and attachment) for them than they possibly think I do."_ 

Because I'm such an introvert (or even a loner at times), I'm very unlikely to call them often, so I'm sure that my friends believe that they don't mean much to me, which is untrue. I care for them, I think about them, and I "feel" them inside me. It's not an "out of sight, out of mind" situation. And when they have a serious problem, I'm the one who is most likely to be there for them at 4 am. I still remember one such night at uni., when I had to rush at 4 am to save a female friend of mine from her violent boyfriend, when all her other "macho" and "closer" friends had kindly declined to "intefere"...



> Now, Creevy, shut up and relate the two. OK, rude other Creevy, I will!


 :laughing:



> This Fe, being in your auxiliary, is fairly strong. In fact, it's stronger than your Ti. What does this mean? It means that _you need others to help make your decisions about yourself_. I'm going to take a guess and say that you're very good at giving objective advice to others. That's because you have the ability through your Ni-Fe combination to see the best way to help someone else.


I'm not sure I _need _others to help me make my decisions about myself, but I am sure that I deeply value the opinions of the experts (not that of the layperson), and take them into *serious* consideration.



> But, when it comes to yourself, you don't have a well-developed Fi. You need an external voice (such as that therapist or those online documents you were talking about) to coach you through the enlightenment process


If by that you mean that I'm unable to achieve self-knowledge by myself, then I do not agree. It's honestly not a bruised ego that disagrees; it's just the fact that my self-knowledge is higher than most people I know, and I didn't have anyone constantly coaching me through this lifelong enlightenment process. Of course, I have gotten the most important insights (quality) about me from the experts, but it was me, independently, who did most of the internal digging (and discovery), so I can't agree with the phrase "_*need* an external voice [...] to coach you..."_


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

sorry Creevy, i thought the avatar was a woman, my apologies 

i have taken down the link for that other cognitive quiz and saved it for future to give out as an option to use for the test.

i agree the cognitives are not 100% accurate due to the questions being too vague or too general, but it does help sometimes.

it takes alot to type especially complex cases, it takes alot of dialog.

I would say you are INFJ, the way you respond to Creevy, you have to be INFJ, you connect well with Creevy, and the fact that people always come to your for counseling is a true INFJ, they are the Counselors, and also you have strong Fe, and i think your Ni is strong the way you relate to Creevy, maybe you just haven't understood what Ni really is yet but you use it. And your paranoia is in line with INFJ, with what you mentioned about not wanting to disclose certain things.

Sorry for my casual style if it offends you, i'm a Ne and inferior Te user, a dom Fi, thus, i'm INFP, see you are nothing like me, you could never be an INFP, you're way too complex, we're much more simple and quick to speak and not afraid to make mistakes when we speak, that's how we learn, by soundboarding, we don't use much Ni and we dont' use Ti, we use Ne and inferior Te for our extraverted functions. 

You might as well accept that you are INFJ and continue to discover the information on INFJ's. I really can't see you fitting any other type, and that counseling is a dead give away if nothing else, that is the strongest confirmation over all. People don't come to INFP's or INTP's or INTJ's for counseling, they go to INFJ's just like me, i go to INFJ's for counseling, they are objective and empathetic and excellent counselors by far, natural born talent! 

here is something for you to look at:

EDIT: Add link:
INFJ's and Daydreaming
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/42083-music-daydreaming.html


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> ...and the fact that people always come to your for counseling is a true INFJ, they are the Counselors, and also you have strong Fe, and i think your Ni is strong the way you relate to Creevy, maybe you just haven't understood what Ni really is yet but you use it. And your paranoia is in line with INFJ, with what you mentioned about not wanting to disclose certain things.


In case it makes any difference, I should note that not ALL people come to me ALL the time for counselling. In fact, I don't think that people come to me with the intent to be counselled in the first place -at least not consciously. People come to me because they enjoy conversing with someone who *THEY* believe is very intelligent and very well-read in psychology, philosophy, religion, international relations and history. What fascinates them the most (I can see it in their eyes) is when I discuss the interplay between them, as well as when I combine knowledge from two or three of them to prove a point. In these meetings, however, the focus of the conversation seems to be somewhat predetermined to be shifted to personal issues and worries, and it is then that I will naturally and very gladly undertake the role of the counsellor. Especially in my teen and early adulthood years, my friends (usually classmates) would often give me the impression that they viewed me as the wise old man of the village.

Important note: I hope that the formatting of the phrase "they believe" didn't go unnoticed, because people do have an exaggerated impression of my knowledge and my intelligence. I am *far* from being a "walking library" or "super intelligent". This is NOT modesty at work here; it is just accurate metaknowledge and accurate estimation of my brainpower (or lack of) -that's all.



> Sorry for my casual style if it offends you


In all honesty, I can't see *anything* wrong with your style. What I do see, however, is a very considerate person, i.e., the type of person that has the highest place in my heart. 



> i'm a Ne and inferior Te user, a dom Fi, thus, i'm INFP, see you are nothing like me, you could never be an INFP, you're way too complex, we're much more simple and quick to speak and not afraid to make mistakes when we speak, that's how we learn, by soundboarding, we don't use much Ni and we dont' use Ti, we use Ne and inferior Te for our extraverted functions.


How can I argue with that???  Oh, wait: Perhaps male INFPs have been forced by the societal preconceptions of masculinity to employ their minds more than their hearts, a habit (and perhaps "second nature") that makes them *appear* more complex than their female counterparts, because it is commonly (mis-)associated with depth of thinking? 

My suggestion doesn't apply, of course, in my case, since you perceive me to be THAT complex (i.e., more than a male INFP could ever pass for). I just used it as an example of my "ability"(?) to quickly find loopholes (now matter how small, *as in this example*) in other people's arguments, which is a scaringly INTP characteristic. 



> You might as well accept that you are INFJ and continue to discover the information on INFJ's. I really can't see you fitting any other type, and that counseling is a dead give away if nothing else, that is the strongest confirmation over all. People don't come to INFP's or INTP's or INTJ's for counseling, they go to INFJ's just like me, i go to INFJ's for counseling, they are objective and empathetic and excellent counselors by far, natural born talent!


I got you tired, didn't I?  That's *OK*; I understand. And I'm really sorry about it. ( In fact, I may be somewhat tired myself. I would just like you to know that I'm not being indecisive for any other reason than my inability to completely disregard the cognitive test results, that show beyond any doubt that I'm not Ni dominant, and I therefore can't be an INFJ, not matter how much I look like one. That's all.



> here is something for you to look at:
> 
> EDIT: Add link:
> INFJ's and Daydreaming


?? 

Don't most people daydream (some less, some more) when they're listening to music?

_______________________

Again, THANK YOU very much for your time and effort. I *HIGHLY* appreciate it! :happy:


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

your welcome, thanks for the compliment also about the heart, of course the heart is what matters to me most 

i wouldn't say YOU got me tired, i would say the Ti in the communication between you and Creevy got me tired.... Ti gives me a headache, i respect Ti, i respect Ti users, all functions are needed in the human race, each type has different strengths, skills, talents, and weaknesses. But it's just as an INFP, Ti is my devilish function, and it gives me a headache to try to engage in heavy Ti conversations, my brain can't take it.

let me see if i can give you an example:

An INFJ would get drained from Si
An INTP would get drained from Fi

Which one drains you more in conversation, Si or Fi?
Si - Introverted Sensing
Introverted Sensing 

Fi - Introverted Feeling
Introverted Feeling


i agree with you that you need to seriously look into Ni to decide how much Ni you think you use, dont' worry about the test result, focus on how much you use Ni. INFJ's can make up whole movies in their minds with daydreaming. I can't do that, yes i can reminisce while listening to music or daydream a little but i can't make up a whole movie in my mind.

INFJ's naturally attract people to come to them for counsel. They do good in Counseling Careers. They are by far the best Counselors! As a matter of fact, i think that most licensed professional Counselors are INFJ's. That is a strong feature of the INFJ type. That alone would lead me to believe you are an INFJ. But keep studying it and dialoging til you feel you have pinpointed your true type. You will settle for a type at some point, no rush. You know yourself, by gathering all this information you'll be able to eventually feel comfortable to accept a type.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

I apologize for disappearing for a couple of days, I've been at school.

DigitalPsyche, let's look at this from a different perspective. For a moment, let's just forget about your personality test scores. Let's forget even about your "type" as a whole. The only thing I want you to focus on are the eight cognitive functions. Could you please take your time, and put them in order, from what YOU feel is your strongest function to the one you feel is your weakest? Ignore the tests, ignore what we've been saying. Just focus strictly on your thoughts.

If you don't understand, or don't feel comfortable enough in your degree of understanding on one or more of the functions, I'd be happy to explain them to you _as I understand them_.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> I apologize for disappearing for a couple of days, I've been at school.


It is I who should probably apologize for taking up so much of your time and brainpower. 



> DigitalPsyche, let's look at this from a different perspective. For a moment, let's just forget about your personality test scores. Let's forget even about your "type" as a whole. The only thing I want you to focus on are the eight cognitive functions. Could you please take your time, and put them in order, from what YOU feel is your strongest function to the one you feel is your weakest? Ignore the tests, ignore what we've been saying. Just focus strictly on your thoughts.


Alright. Let's do that. 

Based on these (mbtitypes.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html & cognitiveprocesses.com) descriptions of the cognitive functions, I can say with reasonable confidence that I use them in the following order:

Fi Fe Ti Si Ne Ni Te Se

I read the descriptions very carefully, again and again, and I used a lot of Si, as well as N, trying to figure out which cognitive is/feels stronger in me.

The Ns are the most difficult to understand, but I think I can relate more to Ne than Ni, which is notoriously difficult to grasp.

From the age of 12 to the age of 14, I was probably Fi Fe Si Se Ne Ni Ti Te.
From 15 to 20, I was probably Fi Fe Si Ne Ni Ti Se Te.
Then, both my Ti and Si started getting stronger, and Se definitely became my least used function. Also, I can sense some weakening of my Fe.

In case you 're wondering, I believe that Fi is my strongest cognitive function because I can completely identify with this description:



> "As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything..." - CognitiveProcesses.com


I'm looking forward to your reply.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> let me see if i can give you an example:
> 
> An INFJ would get drained from Si
> An INTP would get drained from Fi
> ...


I think I get more drained from Si. I still remember not being able to read past the first chapter of a book that has been awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature, because I got fed up with the extremely detailed descriptions of the village, the people, the clothes, etc., when what I was expecting, based on the spiritual title, was a book full of meaning, spirituality and philosophy.



> INFJ's can make up whole movies in their minds with daydreaming. I can't do that, yes i can reminisce while listening to music or daydream a little but i can't make up a whole movie in my mind.


I can't make up whole movies in my with daydreaming either.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> Fi Fe Ti Si Ne Ni Te Se


Alright, there are only two personality types with Fi as the dominant: INFP and ISFP. Have you studied both/either of these? If not, please do so now. When you come back, can you please make a pro/con list for each, with pros being why you think you may be this type, and cons why you think you may not be?


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> Alright, there are only two personality types with Fi as the dominant: INFP and ISFP. Have you studied both/either of these? If not, please do so now. When you come back, can you please make a pro/con list for each, with pros being why you think you may be this type, and cons why you think you may not be?


Yes, I've studied both extensively (because of the dominant Fi), and I'm certain that I'm an INFP, to such an extent that there really is no point in making a list of the pros/cons for each choice.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

for what it's worth, mabye not much, i'm gonna try this with you:
this is my simplified version, let's see if it makes sense or helps in this situation trying to type you:

Fi - cares more about how i feel and how others affect my feeling than cares about how others feel over my own feelings
Fe - cares more about how others feel and how i affect their feelings, rather than care about my own feelings or how other's affect my own feelings
Ti - takes one topic and elaborates on it to the finest well spoken detail with choice words
Te - charts, graphs, bullet points, lists, dialogs with others like a soundboard
Ni - internal intuition from visions in the mind coming from unknown mysterious spiritual places, psychic, mysterious, scientific intuition, etc.
Ne - external intuition while using senses, see something and intuit the endless possibilites it could be, hear, touch , feel, smell i guess, cause it takes things from external sources, i guess we can do it with smell too, never thought of it that way though
Si - loves to reminisce of past in detail, very nostaligic, very good at remembering details of past experiences, memories, etc
Se - action oriented, impulsive to immediate surroundings, see's surroundings in fine detail


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> Yes, I've studied both extensively (because of the dominant Fi), and I'm certain that I'm an INFP, to such an extent that there really is no point in making a list of the pros/cons for each choice.


Oh yeah? Congrats, then man!

Just to make sure, you aren't just saying that, right? I promise, I don't mind help you out with this, lol


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

Dreamer777 said:


> for what it's worth, mabye not much, i'm gonna try this with you:
> this is my simplified version, let's see if it makes sense or helps in this situation trying to type you:
> 
> Fi - cares more about how i feel and how others affect my feeling than cares about how others feel over my own feelings
> ...


Dreamer, I'm confused now. I tend to daydream about my favorite points in the past all the time, but Si is supposed to be my devilish function. Thoughts?


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Creevy, i think the word "favorite" is what sets you apart from a more dominant Si user, Si users can remember lots of stuff, not necessarily favorite stuff. in my opinion you as an INFJ, i think what you may be referring to is things that gave you great excitement, is that what you mean?


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

Dreamer777 said:


> Creevy, i think the word "favorite" is what sets you apart from a more dominant Si user, Si users can remember lots of stuff, not necessarily favorite stuff. in my opinion you as an INFJ, i think what you may be referring to is things that gave you great excitement, is that what you mean?


Yes, that is what I mean. I'm terrible at remembering the color of a person's shirt, or what restaurant we went out to eat at. But I can remember how you made me feel, and how I made you feel, and the special moments we shared that sparked this soul communication. Does that sound INFJ to you?


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Dreamer777 said:


> for what it's worth, mabye not much, i'm gonna try this with you:
> this is my simplified version, let's see if it makes sense or helps in this situation trying to type you:


It's worth a lot, for reasons that I needn't even mention to an INFP. 

Your simplified version confirms my understanding of each cognitive function; that's a relief. I'm now even more sure that I put them in right order.

So...hello from a highly unusual fellow INFP!


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> Oh yeah? Congrats, then man!
> 
> Just to make sure, you aren't just saying that, right? I promise, I don't mind help you out with this, lol


lol! 

To tell you the truth, I am bit disappointed about how this turned out, not because of the result, but because you've put so much effort and time into typing me, that I kinda feel bad that we finished right where we started (INFP).

For a moment there, I had started thinking that I may in fact be an INFJ, but it seems that the dominant function.... is fate: You are Fi, then it's over. 

Especially when I realized that I had Fe Ti Se, I was very close to accepting that I may be some sort of hybrid (which is a polite way of saying something that I can't write in a forum, but ends in "up") INFJ! lol!


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> It's worth a lot, for reasons that I needn't even mention to an INFP.
> 
> Your simplified version confirms my understanding of each cognitive function; that's a relief. I'm now even more sure that I put them in right order.
> 
> So...hello from a highly unusual fellow INFP!


Welcome aboard man  glad we could be of some help.

Now, I'd like to ask YOU far some help. If it wouldn't be much trouble, could you use your understanding of the cognitive functions to give me your _honest_ opinion on my type. Do you think I'm an INFJ? Why or why not? If you want to ask me some questions, I'd be happy to answer them. I also have made a thread like this one on here, I can link it if you want me to, for the twenty question form.


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## Creevy (Nov 28, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> lol!
> 
> To tell you the truth, I am bit disappointed about how this turned out, not because of the result, but because you've put so much effort and time into typing me, that I kinda feel bad that we finished right were we started (INFP).
> 
> ...


LOL

Don't worry man. I'm a firm believer in making the journey to search for home, only to realize that home was where you were all along.

As for your hybrid scenario, in a way it's true--very few people are the exact cookie cutter cognitive function map that their type states, for a thousand different reasons. It's a best fit thing, in a way.


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Creevy said:


> Welcome aboard man  glad we could be of some help.
> 
> Now, I'd like to ask YOU far some help. If it wouldn't be much trouble, could you use your understanding of the cognitive functions to give me your _honest_ opinion on my type. Do you think I'm an INFJ? Why or why not? If you want to ask me some questions, I'd be happy to answer them. I also have made a thread like this one on here, I can link it if you want me to, for the twenty question form.


Please believe me that if I was THAT good at typing someone, I would have a. not bothered you people (I would have asked just for a simple opinion), and b. been helping other people in this part of the forum. I am nowhere near understanding the cognitive functions/MBTI types as well as you do, and I will therefore not even dare type someone as complex as you (INFJ).

For the exact same reason, I wouldn't bet my head on either the order of the cognitive functions in me, or my type. 

And yes, I do tend to read hidden meaning/motives in other people's words.


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## Metanoia (Nov 21, 2011)

I was summoned here... read most of the thread posts... and here are my thoughts, for what it's worth.

First off, MBTI suggests that only the subject, the individual being typed, can make a final determination as to their true type. So really, when the rest of us try to guess at your type, @DigitalPsyche , we're doing just that--_guessing_. 

It takes a lot of time, a lot of reading and honest introspection/reflection to determine your type. Some people are harder than others, but ultimately it's going to be a choice you make, that you feel the most comfortable with.

That said, here are my third party, don't-know-you-at-all thoughts:

From your first posts I was thinking INFP, ISFJ or possibly INFJ too. As you went along, and you Creevy seemed to develop a rapport, I started to lean more toward INFJ. But your questionnaire was very heavy Fi for me... and that stayed with me through all the subsequent posts. And now, it looks like (for the time being) you've settled on INFP. 

I think it's important to note that most Type descriptions are written with clear behavioral examples, to give people a more accessible foot-hold on understanding the general tendencies of that type. However, not all counselors are INFJ, not all artists are ISFPs - nor is the reverse true (all ISFPs artists, etc.). It really comes down to the cognitive functions and how you understand them and use them to process information. I kept seeing you talk about your values/beliefs, those come first. In your questionnaire you said your values even came before others. Later you said that you do care for others, etc., and someone pointed out that as Fe, but I think that Fi can look like Fe if your core values are the same as those held by others around you, in a community sense.

I think a lot of times Fe users get caught up in what others think, what others would expect of them, and what others are feeling. Those expectations and emotions can even take the place or supersede our own. I am 100% sure I use Fe over Fi myself, and I think that likewise, @DigitalPsyche says he uses Fi over Fe, too. This was a great first step, and led you to look at both INFP and ISFP. I think it's safe to say, of those two, and given your posts, you're more intuitive than sensing, so yes, I would agree with INFP for the time being. Remember, not all INFPs are Healers (that was just a buzz word given by one Personality typologist to try to make this 'easier' to absorb for people, but is probably doing a disservice as people get caught up on one word and think it doesn't describe them so they drop it). And INFPs are not always dreamy or intuitive in the sense they can predict the future, etc. These are just behavioral generalizations, and they need to be observed with respect and objectivity.

So keep reading up on the functions, find as many different descriptions out there on the web as you can and find the common denominators present in them. But as I started out this post saying, you're the only one who can type yourself. 

No matter your type, you sound like an interesting person! Best of luck!


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

Creevy said:


> Yes, that is what I mean. I'm terrible at remembering the color of a person's shirt, or what restaurant we went out to eat at. But I can remember how you made me feel, and how I made you feel, and the special moments we shared that sparked this soul communication. Does that sound INFJ to you?


i asked an INFJ for you, and they said they could not relate to the daydreaming about special moments in the past, and said maybe it was just their own personal preference, but said rather that sounded like more to do with Fi or Si?


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## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello @_elemental_ , and thanks for "stopping by".  Your post was VERY helpful, and it cleared a lot of things in my mind. Again, thank you very much for your time and effort. 



elemental said:


> From your first posts I was thinking INFP, ISFJ or possibly INFJ too. As you went along, and you Creevy seemed to develop a rapport, I started to lean more toward INFJ. But your questionnaire was very heavy Fi for me... and that stayed with me through all the subsequent posts. And now, it looks like (for the time being) you've settled on INFP.


The truth is that I have not really settled on INFP. I was just asked by @_Creevy_ , who saw the dominant Fi in my self-made cognitive profile, whether I think I'm INFP or ISFP. I replied that I'm confident that I'm an INFP, *as opposed to* being an ISFP.

The reason why I am not settled on INFP is because I see myself having A LOT of common things with an INFJ, except for the dominant Ni. I know this sounds absurd, since it's technically not possible, but I can't help saying it. 

For example, I can *COMPLETELY* relate to the following from the INFJ description @ Personality Junkie | INFJ:



> "INFJs are “old souls.” They grow up feeling far wiser than would be predicted by their chronological age. Some may experience themselves as wiser than their teachers or parents. They may take on the role of counseling and advising their friends and siblings, or even their adult family members, from an extraordinarily young age."





> "Growing out of their distrust of first-blush appearances, INFJs are reluctant to trust majority opinion. They are often the last to read a bestseller, feeling that if everyone else (i.e., the majority of whom are prone to being fooled by appearances) thinks it is good, it probably is not worth their time."





> "INFJs also tend to be purists and classicists. Many enjoy collecting antiques, historical artifacts, old first edition books, rare art, or anything that satisfies their thirst for what they perceive as pure or classic works. For similar reasons, they may find themselves captivated by a certain period in history, a specific genre of music, or a handpicked selection of actors or writers. In selecting a novel, would far prefer a known classic to a new bestseller. Similarly, if they are going to wear shoes (which according to recent research, most INFJs do), they want the shoes to be of high quality and a classic, rather than trendy style. If selecting artwork for display in their home, they most would opt for an original over a print."





> Because of their love for proferring advice and solving people-related problems, INFJs are commonly drawn to careers such as ministry, counseling, and teaching. Others may opt to work toward social change in politics or non-profit work.





> Metaphor, the primary offspring of a fertile Ni, is INFJs’ bread-and-butter tool for communication, allowing them illustrate their ideas in an easy-to-swallow format. In contrast to INTs’ bent toward linguistic parsimony, INFJs prefer to dress up their ideas, invigorating and embellishing them with descriptive metaphors.


Yet, I simply cannot relate to any of the descriptions of their "psychic"* and prophetic abilities, the premonitions and the visions, their moments of disembodiment (OBEs?), the "a ha!" moments, when solutions and entirely novel theories or compositions come out of "nowhere". I, therefore, cannot be Ni dominant.

UNLESS, of course, what I read somewhere is true, and we are barely aware of our dominant function when it's an introverted one, especially if it is well developed, in which case the notoriously hard to grasp/define Ni will be almost impossible to be diagnosed as dominant by the untrained seeker. It's like asking someone what's their most used piece of software and him replying that it's the web browser, when in fact it is the operating system, but because it is "one" with the overall computer experience, most pc users won't even think about it.


*Only once in my life did I have such a moment, but *don't most people have such an experience once in their lives*? One day, back in high school, I was calling my best friend, but his phone was busy for over an hour, so I went to his home. After hanging up, I asked somewhat angrily who had he been talking to for so long. He mentioned a common classmate whom I hadn't seen in years, because I went to a different school, and I automatically asked: _"What's wrong with him?! Does he have cancer?!!"_. I immediately "bit my tongue" and was terribly shocked but what I had said, yet my friend replied with eyes wide open "YES....!!!!!!". The guy was only 16 and he had been diagnosed with leukaimia... STILL, this proves nothing, because the majority of people have at least one similar experience during their lives.




> In your questionnaire you said your values even came before others. Later you said that you do care for others, etc., and someone pointed out that as Fe, but I think that Fi can look like Fe if your core values are the same as those held by others around you, in a community sense.
> 
> I think a lot of times Fe users get caught up in what others think, what others would expect of them, and what others are feeling. Those expectations and emotions can even take the place or supersede our own.


Yes, my values do come before others. I find it, for example, very difficult to be *best* friends with people who don't share at least some of my core values/beliefs, no matter how nice they are overall. For example, I could never be best friends with a neo-liberal. I also despise lawyers, and I could never be close friends with one, because I view them as hired assassins of truth and justice (in effect of people). On the contrary, I am more likely to befriend someone just because our beliefs are very close, ignoring (to a reasonable extent), at the same time, personality traits that I would otherwise find it more difficult to tolerate. However, I help indiscriminately.

As for the second part, i.e., the Fi looking like Fe "if your core values are the same as those held by others around you"; that is not the case with me, because I have a combination of values and beliefs that is rare (at least in the statistical sense), being the product of what *I *feel is ethical/right/correct. For example, my political beliefs are a combination of trends that have not been historically associated together a lot, and this makes all people around me busting their heads trying to find out what my political convictions are.



> This was a great first step, and led you to look at both INFP and ISFP. I think it's safe to say, of those two, and given your posts, you're more intuitive than sensing, so yes, I would agree with INFP for the time being.


Thank you for confirming this. 



> No matter your type, you sound like an interesting person! Best of luck!


Thank you for your kind words.


----------



## Metanoia (Nov 21, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> Hello @_elemental_ , and thanks for "stopping by".  Your post was VERY helpful, and it cleared a lot of things in my mind. Again, thank you very much for your time and effort.


You're very welcome, glad to help 





DigitalPsyche said:


> The truth is that I have not really settled on INFP. I was just asked by @_Creevy_ , who saw the dominant Fi in my self-made cognitive profile, whether I think I'm INFP or ISFP. I replied that I'm confident that I'm an INFP, *as opposed to* being an ISFP.


Okay, I see, I was definitely scanning/skimming the posts, so I must've missed this detail, but yes, Definitely N more than S, therefore INFP more than ISFP.



DigitalPsyche said:


> The reason why I am not settled on INFP is because I see myself having A LOT of common things with an INFJ, except for the dominant Ni. I know this sounds absurd, since it's technically not possible, but I can't help saying it.
> 
> For example, I can *COMPLETELY* relate to the following from the INFJ description @ Personality Junkie | INFJ:


I relate 100% to everything you quoted as well. So it is very likely you could be INFJ! However, Type descriptions from all the various sites around the internet teach by example or commonality, but they don't do much to explain the theory behind the functions, which were developed by Jung and are the basis for the various iterations of Personality Typology found on this forum (Keirsey, MBTI, Beebe, etc.), except for Enneagram. You may identify with these descriptions, as I do, but you need to look back at how you perceived and judged the information you obtained from the world, and how this has led to the behaviors you quoted above. You must think more deeply about the theories or reasons behind something, instead of simply checking off behaviors that sound like you on any given description, because the descriptions vary and overlap heavily! Since INFJs love metaphors (and you've made some great ones, just like the browser/OS example above which I greatly enjoyed ), here's one to explain this phenomenon (that I made up off the top of my head, and isn't one of my greatest metaphors by far haha): two people are on a first date. Even though never met before, they end up ordering the same drinks, the same meals and the same desserts. Their preferences match, and on the surface this might seem like a perfect love connection. However, the woman ordered the drink because it reminded her of one her father always made when she was a child, while the man ordered it because he didn't like anything else offered. The woman ordered the entree because it seemed the most indulgent to her appetite, and the man because he couldn't decide what else to order. Finally the woman ordered that dessert because it was the first thing that caught her eye and she wanted to just go with that moment and choose something without thinking, and the man because he it was the cheapest thing offered, and he was already thinking that the meal was already going to be so expensive. So you have one person, the woman, who made her choices based off sentimental memories, sensory indulgence and spontaneity. Conversely, the man made his choices based off demanding taste, indecision, and frugality. So yes, their choices matched, but their reasons for making them are wildly different and probably indicate these two would NOT be a good match in a relationship. 

Let's see if we can figure out why you scored so high with Fi then, shall we? Fi is often loosely associated with values, but values are something any type can have, and can have strong convictions about as well. Basically, introverted feelers make judgments about things based off subjective attitudes or feelings they have, rather than more collected judgment. Perhaps the questions on the test itself misled you to score high with Fi, although you also independently chose Fi as your first function, just reading the descriptions. You said English is your second language, and while you seem very versed in expressing yourself in it, have you tried reading descriptions or taking tests in your native tongue to see if you get a similar result? Keep trying to get at why Fi resonates with you so well, try different angles and ways to explore this, because most Typologists would agree you cannot be INFJ if your dominant function is truly Fi.



DigitalPsyche said:


> Yet, I simply cannot relate to any of the descriptions of their "psychic"* and prophetic abilities, the premonitions and the visions, their moments of disembodiment (OBEs?), the "a ha!" moments, when solutions and entirely novel theories or compositions come out of "nowhere". I, therefore, cannot be Ni dominant.
> 
> UNLESS, of course, what I read somewhere is true, and we are barely aware of our dominant function when it's an introverted one, especially if it is well developed, in which case the notoriously hard to grasp/define Ni will be almost impossible to be diagnosed as dominant by the untrained seeker. It's like asking someone what's their most used piece of software and him replying that it's the web browser, when in fact it is the operating system, but because it is "one" with the overall computer experience, most pc users won't even think about it.
> 
> ...


Here is another example where I think the descriptions can mislead people, because they are too general, or in this case, determined to identify Ni as something akin to being psychic or a prophet. If you look around the INFJ boards, not many of us have daily examples of psychic visions of the future. Ni is much more subconscious, as you pointed out by that one description you read. But we can have moments like you did with your friend and the phone call. Think about how many times you had thoughts like that and DIDN'T voice them. I think many of us with Ni dom begin to say hey... my intuitions are more right then I am willing to admit, and over time we become more confident in taking a risk to express them, to stop over-thinking/analyzing reality, and go with gut feelings as they arise. Personally, I get deja vu A LOT... and I see this as Ni working behind the scenes. I've also had my psychic episodes as a child, and a few later in life... but this is not the totality of Ni, nor a determining factor.

How I look at Ni is... possibilities. It's seeing beyond what is right in front of you. It's all about *perspectives*. In general, sensing types are more apt to take reality as it is, as it is presented to them, whereas intuitives are more likely to ask "what does this mean? why are things this way?" And we often attack problems from as many angles as we can imagine, trying to gain the right perspective, often one that's outside our own, to solve the problem. It's taking into account a seemingly immense amount of data, even things totally unrelated to the object we're evaluating, to see underlying patterns, and almost 'guessing' at the future outcome based on that. It's an analytical, reductive process, because it's introverted, but it's a lot more about big picture ideas and *connections* than the sum of the data in front of us. It's exactly the "what computer software do you use the most?" example you used... a sensing type would be more likely to answer "My browser" where as an intuitive would be more likely to take a step further back, to see a more inclusive picture of the environment, and answer "my Operating system."



DigitalPsyche said:


> Yes, my values do come before others. I find it, for example, very difficult to be *best* friends with people who don't share at least some of my core values/beliefs, no matter how nice they are overall. For example, I could never be best friends with a neo-liberal. I also despise lawyers, and I could never be close friends with one, because I view them as hired assassins of truth and justice (in effect of people). On the contrary, I am more likely to befriend someone just because our beliefs are very close, ignoring (to a reasonable extent), at the same time, personality traits that I would otherwise find it more difficult to tolerate. However, I help indiscriminately.


I see less similarity with your values here and myself. Maybe I'm just more... relaxed? It could be something more, but I find that I could be casual friends, like acquaintances, with anyone, regardless of their personal beliefs. I'm very understanding in most cases. However, if the person is openly ignorant, such as being racist, sexist, etc., I am more apt to just smile and nod, but keep that person at a great distance from myself. This is not someone I'd want to get involved with more than a superficial way. I used to judge people more harshly in my teens/early 20s... maybe I've just become more accepting in my early 30s, but I would not exclude someone solely based on political beliefs (as you referenced, being a 'neo-liberal'). I think that's pretty close-minded actually, which is something that INFJs can be if we're too stuck on reinforcing our own, subjective views of the world (through Ni or Ti), without weighing our judgment on our own values, always against others' (Fe).



DigitalPsyche said:


> As for the second part, i.e., the Fi looking like Fe "if your core values are the same as those held by others around you"; that is not the case with me, because I have a combination of values and beliefs that is rare (at least in the statistical sense), being the product of what *I *feel is ethical/right/correct. For example, my political beliefs are a combination of trends that have not been historically associated together a lot, and this makes all people around me busting their heads trying to find out what my political convictions are.
> 
> Thank you for confirming this.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words.


You're welcome. The whole process of finding your type is exactly like the adage "life is more about the journey than the destination." No matter what type you finally decide upon for yourself, you're going to have gone through a well-thought out, introspective, analytical process within yourself, and ultimately end up with a better understanding of how you work, and maybe even where you could improve yourself. 

You're welcome again. Cheers!


----------



## DigitizedConsciousness (Feb 10, 2012)

elemental said:


> I relate 100% to everything you quoted as well. So it is very likely you could be INFJ! However, Type descriptions from all the various sites around the internet teach by example or commonality, but they don't do much to explain the theory behind the functions, which were developed by Jung and are the basis for the various iterations of Personality Typology found on this forum (Keirsey, MBTI, Beebe, etc.), except for Enneagram. You may identify with these descriptions, as I do, but you need to look back at how you perceived and judged the information you obtained from the world, and how this has led to the behaviors you quoted above. You must think more deeply about the theories or reasons behind something, instead of simply checking off behaviors that sound like you on any given description, because the descriptions vary and overlap heavily!


What you're saying here is SO right and SO commonsensical (at least in my mind), that it made me realize that I had entered a trance-like state, where I would voraciously read descriptions around the internet, without pausing for a moment to reflect on the reasons that led me to particular behaviours, which is exactly what I would normally do! I feel sort of angry at me right now.  

I'll try to make a new start by explaining what led me to THIS behaviour. 

The first reason is that I want to bring closure to this type identification process. I want to definitely know whether I'm an INFP or an INFJ, so that I can then move on to exploring my type. It's like being a member of a mountain rescue team and being informed that you need to go rescue an injured skier, without being told which mountain he is on... Just how are you going to design the rescue mission??? 

The second -equally strong- reason is that I feel bad taking up so much of your (i.e., the people who have posted on my thread) time. I know that you are doing this out of the kindness of your hearts, but this doesn't stop me from feeling that I may have overused your "collective expertise". I know that other people are "waiting in line" to be helped by you, and I don't think that I'm more important than any of them, so as to be "asking" more of your time and attention.



elemental said:


> Let's see if we can figure out why you scored so high with Fi then, shall we? Fi is often loosely associated with values, but values are something any type can have, and can have strong convictions about as well. Basically, introverted feelers make judgments about things based off subjective attitudes or feelings they have, rather than more collected judgment.


Reading this "intuitively" made me feel that there may be something very wrong with my perception of Fi. I first got that "hunch" (not sure about the preciseness of this word), when I first read the INFJ description, because I realized then that other types can be equally serious about their convictions/ideas.

Let me see if I understand what you 're saying: 

Fi judges the quality of a person/situation/idea by comparing it to an internal system of beliefs and preferences that was formed somewhat arbitrarily (i.e., not after philosophical or other *reflection*), and that is never really validated against reality, because the introverted feeler doesn't feel the need to do so.

The exact opposite of this must be judging the quality of things by comparing them against archetypes of Morality, Justice, Beauty, etc., pretty much like Plato's "Ideas". In reality, I have a feeling that this might just be a more intellectual and unconscious version of Fe's adopting group ethics and preferences. It reminded me of a relevant quote by Einstein: "_Common sense __is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen".
_
For example, in the case of seeing a homeless person, the introverted feeler would say _"This is unacceptable! I__ can't stand seeing people on the streets in the 21st century!", _whereas the other type would say _"This is unacceptable! By virtue of belonging to the human race, all people should have a home!"_ (comparison against the archetype of Human Rights). Now, they are both *feeling equally strong* about this situation, they might both *equally help* the homeless person, yet one referenced an internal touchstone, and the other a pseudo-external one.

Is this correct? Do you think I have understood what Fi is all about?

IF my understanding of Fi is correct, then I most likely belong in the second group of people. This is not to say, however, that I'm Fi-free, because in the case of the homeless man, I would also be able to feel bad about this person on a human level, perhaps by semi-consciously imagining myself feeling terribly bad being in his place, or even *subconsciously* fearing that I could one day end up like him. HOWEVER, the crucial difference is that my *moral reasoning* of the situation would be in terms of archetypes of morality, and that means a "should" conclusion.



elemental said:


> You said English is your second language, and while you seem very versed in expressing yourself in it, have you tried reading descriptions or taking tests in your native tongue to see if you get a similar result?


Nothing there. 



elemental said:


> Personally, I get deja vu A LOT... and I see this as Ni working behind the scenes.


I was like that too when I was a teenager. It doesn't happen as often now.



elemental said:


> How I look at Ni is... possibilities. It's seeing beyond what is right in front of you. It's all about *perspectives*. In general, sensing types are more apt to take reality as it is, as it is presented to them, whereas intuitives are more likely to ask "what does this mean? why are things this way?" And we often attack problems from as many angles as we can imagine, trying to gain the right perspective, often one that's outside our own, to solve the problem. It's taking into account a seemingly immense amount of data, even things totally unrelated to the object we're evaluating, to see underlying patterns, and almost 'guessing' at the future outcome based on that. It's an analytical, reductive process, because it's introverted, but it's a lot more about big picture ideas and *connections* than the sum of the data in front of us. It's exactly the "what computer software do you use the most?" example you used... a sensing type would be more likely to answer "My browser" where as an intuitive would be more likely to take a step further back, to see a more inclusive picture of the environment, and answer "my Operating system."


THAT, my friend, is the million dollar explanation of Ni.  You've *completely* changed the way I (quasi-)understand it! 

Let's put my new (quasi-)understanding to the test: I'll try to explain to you how I think analogies are created. What Ni does, in the case of analogies, is that *it extracts the pattern of the most fundamental/essential/important relations/interactions between the principles/people/objects in each life experience* the person has, and then when the pattern of an "object" (in the sense of "anything that is perceived both from the inner or the outside word") it "sees"/sees, matches that of an already existing one in its *database of patterns*, it informs the person by means of the analogy that suddenly (or perhaps after very little effort) appears in his/her mind as a conscious thought. More specifically, in the case of the browser/OS example, my Ni had already extracted the pattern of the computer experience, i.e., "Hardware, BIOS, OS, then all the rest", or that "the OS is the foundation and the enabler of the browser", and when it extracted (perhaps falsely, but that's another subject) the pattern of principles behind the statement _"we are barely aware of our dominant function when it's an introverted one, especially if it is well developed"_, it found that the two matched and it informed me by means of the conscious thought that I shared with you.

The exact same process also explains how and why Ni can "foresee" the future and create metaphors. In the first case, it matches the pattern of the current set of circumstances with that of similar ones from the past, and it informs of you how things will develop by means of a conscious thought. And in the second case, it matches the pattern of one thing (situation/living thing/object/idea) to another, seemingly unrelated one.

What do you think of this explanation? Is it correct? Does is it show that I have an understanding of at least these particular manifestations of a well developed Ni?

In my case, now, it is "conceivable" (I would have written "possible", but that usually implies a probability judgement, which I don't intend to make) that because a *dominant* Ni is such a pervasive and strong (being dominant), yet hard to define and to conceive in a concrete (i.e., easily identifiable) manner, quality, it essentially feels so *one*, so *identified* with what I perceive as "my self" (the "I" experience), that it becomes almost *as difficult* to diagnose as trying to sense your own, distinctive scent. In simpler words, it is conceivable that the Ni is so intertwined with my "being I" that it is very difficult (in the beginning at least) to recognize it as something that exists independently of yourself, in the sense of a concept that is used to classify people into certain personality types.



elemental said:


> I see less similarity with your values here and myself. Maybe I'm just more... relaxed? It could be something more, but I find that I could be casual friends, like acquaintances, with anyone, regardless of their personal beliefs. I'm very understanding in most cases.


I knew when I was writing this that it was very likely that it would be misinterpreted, but I preferred a false positive for narrow-mindedness over not expressing the strong relationship I have with my values. Please read below. 



elemental said:


> However, if the person is openly ignorant, such as being racist, sexist, etc., I am more apt to just smile and nod, but keep that person at a great distance from myself. This is not someone I'd want to get involved with more than a superficial way.


I've had that experience twice within the last five years, with two white-supremacists/neo-nazis. I didn't smile and nod (my facial expression becomes serious and frozen in such cases), but I kept the talking to a minimum and greeted them warmly, as I would with every other human, when we parted.



elemental said:


> I used to judge people more harshly in my teens/early 20s... maybe I've just become more accepting in my early 30s...


Same thing, same age. 



> ...but I would not exclude someone solely based on political beliefs (as you referenced, being a 'neo-liberal'). I think that's pretty close-minded actually, which is something that INFJs can be if we're too stuck on reinforcing our own, subjective views of the world (through Ni or Ti), without weighing our judgment on our own values, always against others' (Fe).


I do not *exclude* anyone solely based on any aspect of his identity. I've had all sorts of harmonic relationships with a variety of people. 

What I was really trying to say is that my values *real*, and I *respect them* and *try to live by them*. My values are not the decorative elements of my inner world, and I don't have them because everyone should have a set of them. And these values are so important to me, that if I'm asked, in an "either-or" fashion, to *compromise them* just to be with someone, then I will simply not do it. Τhis is how I basically perceive the phrase "values before people".

Furthermore, in a more Fi manner I guess, because I believe that *"birds of a feather flock together"*, I don't know how *comfortable *I would feel being *BEST FRIENDS* -*not simply "friends" or acquaintances*- with someone who feels it is just and/or okay to have homeless people, being a proponent of Social Darwinism and/or Neo-Liberalism. I know that somewhere inside me there would be a shadow about him/her. That shadow would be a perception of him/her as a basically heartless person (not totally!), not just someone I simply disagree with. The *extreme* such example I can think of is being *BEST FRIENDS*, or in an *INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP*, with a lawyer. How can I feel *comfortable *being *SO CLOSE *to a person that will, in the next morning, *WILLINGLY LIE at Court*, just because someone payed him/her to?! Imagine him defending -everyone has a right to a lawyer, but not to one that *distorts the truth*- a drug dealer or a crook; would you feel *perfectly okay* with that, in the context of a "brotherly" or romantic relationship? I think that it requires some degree of """sociopathy""" to *completely *disregard that. 



elemental said:


> You're welcome. The whole process of finding your type is exactly like the adage "life is more about the journey than the destination." No matter what type you finally decide upon for yourself, you're going to have gone through a well-thought out, introspective, analytical process within yourself, and ultimately end up with a better understanding of how you work, and maybe even where you could improve yourself.


ABSOLUTELY so!


----------



## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

@DigitalPsyche



> What I was really trying to say is that my values real, and I respect them and try to live by them. My values are not the decorative elements of my inner world, and I don't have them because everyone should have a set of them. And these values are so important to me, that if I'm asked, in an "either-or" fashion, to compromise them just to be with someone, then I will simply not do it. Τhis is how I basically perceive the phrase "values before people".
> 
> Furthermore, in a more Fi manner I guess, because I believe that "birds of a feather flock together", I don't know how comfortable I would feel being BEST FRIENDS -not simply "friends" or acquaintances- with someone who feels it is just and/or okay to have homeless people, being a proponent of Social Darwinism and/or Neo-Liberalism. I know that somewhere inside me there would be a shadow about him/her. That shadow would be a perception of him/her as a basically heartless person (not totally!), not just someone I simply disagree with. The extreme such example I can think of is being BEST FRIENDS, or in an INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP, with a lawyer. How can I feel comfortable being SO CLOSE to a person that will, in the next morning, WILLINGLY LIE at Court, just because someone payed him/her to?! Imagine him defending -everyone has a right to a lawyer, but not to one that distorts the truth- a drug dealer or a crook; would you feel perfectly okay with that, in the context of a "brotherly" or romantic relationship? I think that it requires some degree of """sociopathy""" to completely disregard that.


LOL! As an INFP, i think i'm seeing INFP in you here! I want to help the homeless so much that i want to move to the US to be a part of homeless ministry!!! My Fi tells me everyone deserves to have a home, so that explanation you gave earlier about Fi and Fe, i can't say i agree with it. As for the lawyer thing, as me as an INFP i hate the lies lawyers willfully tell too, it is simply gross. "May the best man win", that is how i look at court cases, it's not always about justice, it's just about who can find the most loopholes in the law to weaken the case against their client so as to vindicate their client. It's just a game of minds with truth taking a back seat if and when needed to, to give lies first place to vindicate the client. However sometimes justice is served too, so i guess you just can't have the good without the bad, cause we do need Law and Courts. We as INFP's don't, because we have very deep consciences, a built in moral compass inside ourselves to not hurt humanity, to live and let live, to live in harmony in love and care and respect for one another, to help and be kind to one another, so in an INFP planet no we would not need court and law. But for other types we need court and law. I think you show Fi way over Fe in all what you say here, with the passion for the homeless, with your strong values that come first over people, and with the hating of the lies of lawyers.


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## Metanoia (Nov 21, 2011)

DigitalPsyche said:


> What you're saying here is SO right and SO commonsensical (at least in my mind), that it made me realize that I had entered a trance-like state, where I would voraciously read descriptions around the internet, without pausing for a moment to reflect on the reasons that led me to particular behaviours, which is exactly what I would normally do! I feel sort of angry at me right now.


It seems so commonsensical to me too, and people have pointed out to me before that I'm being obvious when I make observations like this, but I think it's so easy to forget the obvious sometimes it's good to remind ourselves. So don't be hard on yourself, I'm just glad you're feeling like you're getting something out of it. 




DigitalPsyche said:


> I'll try to make a new start by explaining what led me to THIS behaviour.
> 
> The first reason is that I want to bring closure to this type identification process. I want to definitely know whether I'm an INFP or an INFJ, so that I can then move on to exploring my type. It's like being a member of a mountain rescue team and being informed that you need to go rescue an injured skier, without being told which mountain he is on... Just how are you going to design the rescue mission???


I *love* analogies/metaphors (it's how I think) and new and unusual ones really tickle me, and I've enjoyed all of yours so far, keep them coming!  



DigitalPsyche said:


> The second -equally strong- reason is that I feel bad taking up so much of your (i.e., the people who have posted on my thread) time. I know that you are doing this out of the kindness of your hearts, but this doesn't stop me from feeling that I may have overused your "collective expertise". I know that other people are "waiting in line" to be helped by you, and I don't think that I'm more important than any of them, so as to be "asking" more of your time and attention.


I wouldn't worry about that... there are a number of people who frequent this forum who get a lot of pleasure out of using their knowledge to help others, like @_Dreamer777_ ... so you're basically giving them purpose, a way to be helpful that they truly enjoy. 





DigitalPsyche said:


> Reading this "intuitively" made me feel that there may be something very wrong with my perception of Fi. I first got that "hunch" (not sure about the preciseness of this word), when I first read the INFJ description, because I realized then that other types can be equally serious about their convictions/ideas.
> 
> Let me see if I understand what you 're saying:
> 
> ...


This example is good, but I think it reflects the fact that your understanding of Fi is still in development, because I don't feel any resonation or "A-ha, he got it!" when I read it. But don't get discouraged, I think that you're well on your way to better understanding it. For me, I've been studying this for only a few months now (so I'm still relatively new, too), and my understandings of the cognitive functions are still in flux, getting slightly refined or re-defined as new realizations come to me. 

I'm going give you more of my personal idea about the Fi/Fe differences, but they are pretty general, and based mostly on my own observations/experience, so I would really encourage you to read some of the Fi vs. Fe threads around the forum, particularly in the Cognitive Functions subforum, to get other people's understanding as well.

I know 100% I use Fe over Fi. Sometimes I see myself using Fi... but it's rare, and probably more likely I'm using a Ni-Fe combo. Actually, I'll step back a bit... and say that on this forum, I've noticed that the various functions have almost morphed into a community-driven set of synonyms. For example... Fi has been tied closely to people's "values" and sometimes I see people using Fi almost just in place of saying the word they mean. That is, someone might say "I see your Fi is strong about the topic of the homeless" when really... it would be more accurate to just say "I see you have strong values about the homeless issue." But it's almost like... when people visit this forum and commune here, they adopt this MBTI/JCF-based nomenclature and make contextual replacements in their conversations when talking about whatever the subject at hand might be. And I totally understand why this is the case... this is a forum created by and for people who are interested in and want to talk about these topics. Just sometimes... I see people taking the functions out of context, and creating figurative meaning (something I'm very comfortable doing myself usually), which is fine if you understand the concepts well, but can also confuse people who are new and trying to learn it. 

I went off on a tangent a bit there... back to my own personal understand of Fi. I said I know 100% I use Fe, it's because a lot of times I find myself almost... unaware of my feeling... or adopting those of others around me. I think this is why INFJs are said to be somewhat empathic, because of the combination of intuition (trying to fill in the missing/hidden information) with a general attitude of our feelings being directed outward. Extroverted functions/attitudes need input from the outside, it looks for validation or definition from external sources. Introverted is the reverse, looking inward, and surviving self-sufficiently.

For me, Fi users are much more prone to just... feel the way THEY feel, and base those feelings off wholly subjective, internalized and self-contained stimulus or catalysts. As an Fe user, when I see Fi users applying their feeling judgments, I often find them ... selfish. That is, if a judgment they've made goes against what others feel, or would negatively effect the group, I see that as inconsiderate and unilateral. Perhaps this is some byproduct of the way the functions operate, but I see Fi users as operating off their feelings only, whether it effects others negatively or not, whereas Fe users would be more apt to take others' feelings or perception into account, and possibly revise how they feel to better fit the standardized, expected reaction. Does that make sense?

As a result, Fi users tend to have more unusual or unorthodox opinions about things, because they tend to care less how others might perceive or judge them. Fe users are more apt to hide or excise these types of abnormal opinions, lest they be judged by the community. If we put a spin on your homeless person analogy, I think being outraged by the fact people are homeless in the 21st Century is not a novel idea; in fact, I'd say it's socially accepted to be against homelessness. So this is potentially a very Fe-based opinion (depending on how you came to decide upon it). Whereas, an Fi user might take an unorthodox approach to the homeless issue, and say that people have the right to be homeless, and if it is a situation they chose for themselves, the rest of society should just butt out, stop feeling pity for them, and let them live their lives on their own terms. You could imagine, if I expressed this opinion to group of people at a party, there might be initial shock or confusion, because this is an atypical approach to how we are taught to view the homeless.

Let's try another analogy, since we both enjoy employing those to better comprehend things. Introverted functions are like nuclear reactors - once the first, small infusion of plutonium is introduced at the beginning of the reactor's life, it can generate energy independent of new fuel for decades. It's a self-contained, independently operating system. In contrast, Extroverted functions are more like traditional power plants. Yes, they produce energy, but they need to be constantly fed fuel (coal, gas, etc.) from outside sources in order to keep working. So if mankind were somehow blinked out of existence tomorrow, the nuclear fuel would keep producing energy, while the coal/gas fired plants would cease energy production the instant the outside fuel ran out. 

This is a personal understanding, others may disagree with me, but I thought I'd share, so you can add it to your repertoire. 



DigitalPsyche said:


> IF my understanding of Fi is correct, then I most likely belong in the second group of people. This is not to say, however, that I'm Fi-free, because in the case of the homeless man, I would also be able to feel bad about this person on a human level, perhaps by semi-consciously imagining myself feeling terribly bad being in his place, or even *subconsciously* fearing that I could one day end up like him. HOWEVER, the crucial difference is that my *moral reasoning* of the situation would be in terms of archetypes of morality, and that means a "should" conclusion.


This is good, keep at it. People disagree on whether we are able to use all 8 functions, just a various levels, or if we really are only consciously aware of the top 3 or 4, and the rest we are somehow unaware of, and when we'd think we're using one of those hidden, _shadow_ functions, we're actually using a combination of other functions, and not realizing or misinterpreting it. Psychoanalysis, like every theoretical field, has proponents and opponents to almost every aspect of it. As your cognitive function results showed, you have both Fe and Fi high in your stacking, and theory purists would say you could only have one Feeling function, either introverted or extroverted, under your conscious control, and this test result was just the result of you being a very F-dominant (or possibly auxiliary) person; that is, some of the questions meant to elicit an Fi positive result dealt with Feeling in general, so you scored high on Fi and Fe. But really, we can only have one orientation for our functions, or so some purists would say...

I think if you can positively identify your dominant (1st) function, as well as be pretty sure of your aux (2nd) function, paying less attention to whether it is extroverted or introverted in nature, then you'll be able to accurately figure out your type. So for you, do you feel more Fi-Ne or Ni-Fe? Another way to attack it, that @Dreamer777 often employs, the Quenk method, is to try to identify your 4th (Aspirational/Inferior) function. For INFJ it would be Se, for INFP it would be Te. 

The INFJ/INFP confusion is common when you're starting off with MBTI and JCF; I myself got INFP for one or two of my first test results, and was caught between those two when I started. But now, seeing the differences between the types as exemplified by the people on this forum, there is no doubt in my mind I'm more INFJ than INFP. I'd say you're a likely INFJ candidate as well... but as I said before, the answer is your own, and only you can find and decide upon it. 



DigitalPsyche said:


> THAT, my friend, is the million dollar explanation of Ni.  You've *completely* changed the way I (quasi-)understand it!
> 
> Let's put my new (quasi-)understanding to the test: I'll try to explain to you how I think analogies are created. What Ni does, in the case of analogies, is that *it extracts the pattern of the most fundamental/essential/important relations/interactions between the principles/people/objects in each life experience* the person has, and then when the pattern of an "object" (in the sense of "anything that is perceived both from the inner or the outside word") it "sees"/sees, matches that of an already existing one in its *database of patterns*, it informs the person by means of the analogy that suddenly (or perhaps after very little effort) appears in his/her mind as a conscious thought. More specifically, in the case of the browser/OS example, my Ni had already extracted the pattern of the computer experience, i.e., "Hardware, BIOS, OS, then all the rest", or that "the OS is the foundation and the enabler of the browser", and when it extracted (perhaps falsely, but that's another subject) the pattern of principles behind the statement _"we are barely aware of our dominant function when it's an introverted one, especially if it is well developed"_, it found that the two matched and it informed me by means of the conscious thought that I shared with you.
> 
> ...


Your understanding of Ni is superb! Especially for a beginner. Another reason to lean toward Ni-dominant 



DigitalPsyche said:


> I knew when I was writing this that it was very likely that it would be misinterpreted, but I preferred a false positive for narrow-mindedness over not expressing the strong relationship I have with my values. Please read below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No worries, misunderstandings happen. I'm glad you clarified, and now that you have, I do see this as less of an Fi-based opinion. 

I hope this all helps you more. I find all this personality typing and psychoanalytical theory very fascinating. And I've specifically enjoyed our interaction! Take care.


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

@DigitalPsyche i think you are INFJ

@elemental nice post! i wanted to clarify something in it compared to my post compared to DP's post:
when i was speaking of the homeless, as in not agreeing with DP's assessment of how an INFJ views it verses how an INFP views it, what i said was that I as an INFP view it that everyone should have their own home, DP said INFP's think that because it is the 21st century no one should be homeless, and INFJ's view it that everyone should have their own home, but what i was saying is that it is the INFP's who say that everyone should have their own home, like in other words, the because of the 21st century perspective didn't relate to me as an INFP, so in other words, i see it in the reverse as DP.

Now you said that INFP's with their Dom Fi, would say more like everyone has a right to live the way they want to live if they choose to be homeless they have that right.... so that kinda doesn't jive with me either as an INFP, i still view it as everyone should have a home and no one should be homeless, that's how i view it, and it is actually a passion in me to do homeless ministry in the US because that is how passionate i am about thinking it's not fair that anyone should have to live in the streets.

So i just wanted to clear that up how i feel and how i believe cause it kinda got crosswired. I'm deeply passionate about the homeless people and would love to see them all have a home, even if they have to share a home with others, but at least somewhere that they can call home and have a roof over their head and stay warm, have a bed, and clean clothes, etc....


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## Metanoia (Nov 21, 2011)

Dreamer777 said:


> @_DigitalPsyche_ i think you are INFJ
> 
> @_elemental_ nice post! i wanted to clarify something in it compared to my post compared to DP's post:
> when i was speaking of the homeless, as in not agreeing with DP's assessment of how an INFJ views it verses how an INFP views it, what i said was that I as an INFP view it that everyone should have their own home, DP said INFP's think that because it is the 21st century no one should be homeless, and INFJ's view it that everyone should have their own home, but what i was saying is that it is the INFP's who say that everyone should have their own home, like in other words, the because of the 21st century perspective didn't relate to me as an INFP, so in other words, i see it in the reverse as DP.
> ...


I actually didn't even read (or don't remember now) the part where you referred to the homeless, so my example/analogy I gave about Fi doms being more likely to view the homeless problem in a unique way wasn't intended to counter your own personal views. Sorry to confuse the situation...

Basically, I believe, an Fi dom is more likely to have unorthodox views, and champion them, independent of other people's opinions or input. That said, I don't think EVERY INFP thinks homeless have the right to be homeless, I just think that Fi doms would be more likely to stand up for their own personal feelings about something, even unorthodox views, more so than Fe users. So my example didn't work perfectly for you, personally, as an INFP, but perhaps you have other very strong feelings/judgments about things or people that might be less than "politically correct", let's say? In this specific example, it just so happens that your view of the Homeless is more or less in line with what I would say is generally accepted in society, so it's a bad example, given the context of players here.

To make an even more simple comparison, let's say you have an ESFJ for a best friend. You're both actively involved in animal rights issues together. Now you're at a party together, and are introduced to a woman wearing a mink shawl. In my mind, an Fi dom would be _more likely_ to comment on this _flagrant disregard for another life equal in every way to a humans_ (this is your own evaluation of the situation, of course, where your values come first), perhaps daring to ask if she knows about the cruel conditions animals used for fur clothing are subjected? To you, your introverted-feeling-based judgment that fur is murder overrode your social graces, so to speak, that dictate you to just be polite and keep to topics that wouldn't insult or inflame others. Now your Fe-dom ESFJ friend is _more likely_ to avoid bringing up such a controversial topic in that setting, because it could deeply insult and offend the woman or your hosts. 

What do you say about that scenario, my Fi dom friend?


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## Dreamer777 (Jan 15, 2011)

elemental said:


> I actually didn't even read (or don't remember now) the part where you referred to the homeless, so my example/analogy I gave about Fi doms being more likely to view the homeless problem in a unique way wasn't intended to counter your own personal views. Sorry to confuse the situation...
> 
> Basically, I believe, an Fi dom is more likely to have unorthodox views, and champion them, independent of other people's opinions or input. That said, I don't think EVERY INFP thinks homeless have the right to be homeless, I just think that Fi doms would be more likely to stand up for their own personal feelings about something, even unorthodox views, more so than Fe users. So my example didn't work perfectly for you, personally, as an INFP, but perhaps you have other very strong feelings/judgments about things or people that might be less than "politically correct", let's say? In this specific example, it just so happens that your view of the Homeless is more or less in line with what I would say is generally accepted in society, so it's a bad example, given the context of players here.
> 
> ...


Lol 

well, what i have to say on that is this...

i'm gonna give 2 answers:

1. for that situation, being at a party and seeing someone in fur that an animal was brutally taken and murdered for, i probably wouldn't say anything unless the topic came up then i would say my little input that i could not feel comfortable in my feelings/values to wear that because of the cruelty to the animal side of the story of the reality of how it came to be. Like for instance after i saw how rooster tail feathers are so brutally plucked out quickly out of their back end all at once while the rooster screams out, and the immense pain and soreness and redness and limping they go through for a couple weeks, not to mention they look so "unmasculine" after, like a disgraced king made to walk naked out of the city after defeat kinda thing (in the old days in some cultures), and they limp and are in so much pain for a couple weeks, and i always thought it was cute for women or men to wear feathers in their hair, til i saw the reality of how those feathers come to be on the market for sale and it made me sick to my stomach, that i hate to see people wearing feathers in their hair. all i can think of is the poor little rooster who was so cruelly treated to get the feathers from, they don't take it from hens, only rooster tails. So it's not like well you butcher the chicken and then take it's feathers and eat it after for food, that would be fine, but that is not the case, people don't really eat roosters, they eat hens - females. I know the rooster incident, we have some wild roosters here at home and they walk about freely and we throw food for them that's why they gravitate to our yard and some new neighbors did that to some of our roosters, to go sell the feathers for money to hair salons, and i was angry, sad, nautious, depressed, grieving over it, i had to help out the roosters for a couple weeks and watch them in so much pain til they could feel kinda normal again, not to mention how ugly they looked and how deformed cause the tallness of the tail matches the tallness of the neck and head, so it's as though one side was gone from them, so they couldn't even walk or run balanced either. i kept saying out loud so the neighbors could hear, casue we're not friendly with them, so i kept saying loud into the air for them to hear, "Someone should burn your ass with a hot iron so you can see how it feels!!!!!" Wicked!!"

So anyhows, back to the party, i wouldn't cause a scene to the one wearing it and i probably wouldn't say nothing unless the topic came up and i add my 2 cents worth of my view. I would just probablly make sure to avoid those parties all together where there is people like that , i'm too introverted and unsophisticated for parties like that anyhows.

2. As for the live and let live you mentioned the first time that i responded to about the homeless issue, well, as for live and let live that could be looked at from so many different angles.

It could be viewed as say no to the death penalty, or it could be viewed as even though my enemy hurt me so much that's ok i forgive them, or it could be viewed as anyone is entitled to live and believe what they want, or you can live and do as you please as long as you are not directly affectin MY life! So, that could be looked at in many different ways. But as to the party and the lady in fur, my way of showing disapproval would be more like a campaign that is not personally aimed at anyone who wears fur, but rather aimed at the ones who trap and torture and slaughter the animal, and even then, not in so much a call out by name personal way, just in general overall, to run a campaign to bring it to awareness and picket and petition the government to do something about it, leaning more to the petition of thousands of signatures rather than the picket, picketing takes extraverted energy, not something i would rush to do unless it comes down to it seriously. If there is no supply then no one can buy it, but the problem is supply comes from demand for the supply and that makes people take on the roll of being the supplier. I guess it's like drug dealing, you can never stop it, casue they will just do it illegally, and the person wearing it can say they owned it from before the law changed! 

But all in all, INFP's are not revengeful people, they are more forgive and live and let live. But, but , but, if something is happening in their territory as with neighbors or anyone trying to bring harm to the neighborhood, INFP's will jump up and blow like a volcano, at least this INFP will!  The neighborhood bodyguard!! of people and animals! Like if someone is beign cruel to an animal i explode at them even if i don't know them, i been like that from a little girl over animal cruelty like pelting rocks at dogs or baby chickens, etc. And if a man is abusing a woman i will rush to the situation, i won't turn a deaf ear or blind eye, i hate when women get abused by men in my ear/eyesight range, i would die for the cause!!! And for animal cruelty in my ear/eyesight range as well!

Did that help any??? lol


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