# Where does courage come from if not from your mind ?



## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Where does courage come from if it isn't coming from your head ? 

I have no idea. I need to know.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> Where does courage come from if it isn't coming from your head ?
> 
> I have no idea. I need to know.


The body. Muscle memory. Having done something so many times that you act/react correctly, without thinking. Its a standard training tactic for many sports, martial arts, and the military. You know you're afraid, but you just push through it and get it done. You can fall apart later...once the adrenalin wears off.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> The body. Muscle memory. Having done something so many times that you act/react correctly, without thinking. Its a standard training tactic for many sports, martial arts, and the military. You know you're afraid, but you just push through it and get it done. You can fall apart later...once the adrenalin wears off.


So my body? does that go for everything you're scared of ? 

I'm just suppose to will my body to say and do stuff and not think about it ? is that what you're saying?

because if that is what you're saying. my brain has been seriously misinformed.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> So my body? does that go for everything you're scared of ?
> 
> I'm just suppose to will my body to say and do stuff and not think about it ? is that what you're saying?
> 
> because if that is what you're saying. my brain has been seriously misinformed.



I don't know. The kinds of things I get scared of are pretty way up the scale, for example: I once had to help fight a fire on board a Navy ship. I had been trained-and-trained-and-trained-and-trained, repetitively, until I knew what I was supposed to do without thinking about it. 

Sure, I was scared out of my mind, but it didn't matter because my training told me what to do and I did it. I have to assume this is what people in live combat do. You don't have time to think or hesitate, you go with what you were trained to do, and hope that's enough to see you through.

I've also done it in martial arts. You run through the same set of moves in a specific order until one day, you're sparring and you don't even realize you're using those moves, but in different sequences than you learned them. You just know it without having to think about it.

Now that I consider it, I can even say I did it when I was acting on stage in theater. We had rehearsed with each other so many times in front of an empty audience that, although I had never really done serious theater before this, I never really remember seeing the audience when I was performing live. I played my role beautifully. Never missed a line, movement, or a beat.

Maybe repetition is how you get your mind out of the way so you don't have time to be afraid until later, once it's over. Then it's sort of a collapse of energy and a sense of: "Holy shit, I did it!"


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

It occurs to me that "courage" is not an absence of fear, it is the compliment to fear. It is doing what has to be done when it needs to be done despite being afraid. I've read something like this somewhere, I'm sure.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

i guess it means trusting in your own will. seeing _yourself_ as a pillar of strength, awareness that you are self possessed and believe in yourself and your capabilities to see something through.

that's briefly what i can make of it for now.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Courage is imo the ability to act or do something despite fear, to ignore the fear. I wouldn't call something courage if fear is not involved.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

I wrote this reply meant for the type 6 board.



Nobleheart said:


> It comes from the gut. That's why the CP 6's get confused for 8s. They bolster up their gut response to be angry enough at what they are afraid of that they can bulldoze their anxiety.


I think you confuse courage with assertiveness, or having the 'guts', like being daring, even to the point of being recklessly insolent and having no regard for what others think. 

It's also where lack of courage comes from...because of what others may think.

It's where inner-guidance and will-power is located, and where we feel self-confidence and personal efficacy...unless of course we are guided, or rather overwhelmed by fear or shame, as mentioned above. 

Counter-phobe (or counter-shame) may also come from this place, although it counters engulfment by fear or shame, and in that respect is more likely reactive than pro active, and it should not be confused with courage. 

Courage comes from the heart. 

First of all, Mel Gibson doesn't play Braveguts. Courage stems from "coeur" (heart). Courage requires strength of will, but is not inconsiderate of what others think. If you expect others may not be pleased, may reject you, or even try to harm you in any way, then perhaps it's an option to try and keep it hidden from them. Which usually is considered a bit sneaky and not courageous, although there are exceptions thinkable. So...we call something courageous because someone wholeheartedly believes it's the right thing to do, and accepts vulnerability or risk of possible harm.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> Where does courage come from if it isn't coming from your head ?
> 
> I have no idea. I need to know.



I had an epiphany when answering another question concerning 6s, here.

I suspect that 6s have an oversensitive "fight-or-flight" response. Their reactivity is a series of instinctual strategies intended to protect them from harm, or blame. They don't just hit this response in purely survival situations like the rest of us do, but whenever they perceive any threat to their security/safety. 

I surmised that one such strategy employed by a counterphobic 6 is to appear furious in the hopes that this will force whatever they are perceiving as a threat to back down. It isn't powered by anger, it's powered by fear. 

It was this line of reasoning that led me to think about the REAL problem with facing our fears: panic. Once you've hit panic, you're pretty much done. My analogy is that it's when our fear builds up too quickly and overwhelms our "fight-or-flight" response. In essence, it "short-circuits" and we're stuck trying to run and fight at the same time. 

You don't need to control your fear, because being afraid is perfectly natural. You need to prevent yourself from succumbing to panic. Fear isn't the mind-killer. Panic is.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Courage is a choice to take action despite there being fear and doubt. Courage is the choice to allow yourself to be bigger and stronger than your fear.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> Courage is a choice to take action despite there being fear and doubt. Courage is the choice to allow yourself to be bigger and stronger than your fear.


In all the instances where I was brave, I don't recall feeling like I had a choice in the matter. There simply wasn't time. I reacted.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> In all the instances where I was brave, I don't recall feeling like I had a choice in the matter. There simply wasn't time. I reacted.


In some instances, this is true, but by no means is it true in all instances. And having a gut reaction to something doesn't mean you're not still making a choice. If someone comes up behind me and grabs me, my gut reaction is to beat the shit out of them. If I do beat the shit out of them, it is still a choice I made, however rash it may be. Sometimes, the gut reaction is the right reaction, and sometimes it is not. Regardless, we are still responsible to accept accountability for our actions/choices.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> In some instances, this is true, but by no means is it true in all instances. And having a gut reaction to something doesn't mean you're not still making a choice. If someone comes up behind me and grabs me, my gut reaction is to beat the shit out of them. If I do beat the shit out of them, it is still a choice I made, however rash it may be. Sometimes, the gut reaction is the right reaction, and sometimes it is not. Regardless, we are still responsible to accept accountability for our actions/choices.


Actually, in that instance, you probably wouldn't be held accountable for your actions because you were responding/defending yourself from an unknown assailant. But point taken.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I had an epiphany when answering another question concerning 6s, here.
> 
> I suspect that 6s have an oversensitive "fight-or-flight" response. Their reactivity is a series of instinctual strategies intended to protect them from harm, or blame. They don't just hit this response in purely survival situations like the rest of us do, but whenever they perceive any threat to their security/safety.
> 
> ...


The only addition I would make that the force outward depends on context. Sometimes it's to force the other to back down but deeper still it's to NOT experience the fear/hurt. Even if I'm nervous I'll force outward and be more hyper and scattered (7 wing) to the point of obnoxious. If I'm sad and no trigger is there to be angry at, I'll be obnoxious hyper desperate to distract myself with whatever I can (either being overly feisty/sarcastic, or looking for support/help to get out of my head). 

The idea you say on panic is spot on and I'm thrilled and agree! When losing connections, trying to establish connections, attempting to work and raise my son whilst in limbo for house services for him, I was in a flat out panic/cycle of crazy. Before getting back on my feet I wracked my nerves afraid characters might conjure up anxiety but luckily, I'm being let be (I'm very aware of my fragility to anxiety provoked from unresolved problems or want not). 

I'm in such a happy positive place (though still stressed and worry about the strategies I need to develop/buying in a couple of years/major move and transitions) but I'm not in panic mode so instead of desperately trying to avoid feelings I have enough breathing room to detach and think. Not sure how other 6's are but I NEED the space to detach from my emotions and think. (Though I'm quite certain I have a 7 wing. The propensity to move on and distance myself to analyze is like breathing air. So courage comes in doing that without worries of other people (their needs etc). 

I think you are spot on but I think it intriguing how my tritype plays like an orchestra , like the music to the thriller that has you on your seat with anticipation/anxiety/fear/panic. I speculate other tritypes of 6 differ greatly (especially if they haven't a 7 Wing) but even the gut and heart. The 9 would be numb to anger and possibly less outwardly volatile, the 8 maybe more so. The 3 might move into a more extroverted position to distract, while the 4 would not be as apt to detach from their emotions to analyze them and possibly more involved with their feelings and concerns of emotional affirmation in conjunction with the mental reassurance. 

Sorry. This is all fluid in my head and I probably didn't articulate myself well. Plus I tend to detach and use personal experience like a tool with no feeling attached which totally weirds people out. Lol! At least irl that's proven to be the case. :/


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> Courage is a choice to take action despite there being fear and doubt. Courage is the choice to allow yourself to be bigger and stronger than your fear.


Thats contrary to the lecture from Helen Palmer I posted. That's why I inquired on the issue of courage in the first place. Not sure what's motivating your curiosity (your other thread I responded to), but if you're involved with a 6, I do hope you listen to the lecture. 

I know it's a shitty recording but it's nice for those who don't want all the chapters (I plan on posting all 9 after the weekend).


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> The only addition I would make that the force outward depends on context. Sometimes it's to force the other to back down but deeper still it's to NOT experience the fear/hurt. Even if I'm nervous I'll force outward and be more hyper and scattered (7 wing) to the point of obnoxious. If I'm sad and no trigger is there to be angry at, I'll be obnoxious hyper desperate to distract myself with whatever I can (either being overly feisty/sarcastic, or looking for support/help to get out of my head).
> 
> The idea you say on panic is spot on and I'm thrilled and agree! When losing connections, trying to establish connections, attempting to work and raise my son whilst in limbo for house services for him, I was in a flat out panic/cycle of crazy. Before getting back on my feet I wracked my nerves afraid characters might conjure up anxiety but luckily, I'm being let be (I'm very aware of my fragility to anxiety provoked from unresolved problems or want not).
> 
> ...


No I get it completely. I DO have a 6 wing, and my sister-in-law is a 6w5. I don't think I feel the affects of the 6 fear the same way though, because I trust that my knowledge will be enough in most situations. 

My sister-in-law is living with us right now. She's getting out of a messy marriage to a very unhealthy 8 (I think). She was with him for 20 years, and he was very manipulative and physical with her. She's in this state right now where her fear responses are all jumbled up, like PTSD. She'll actually swing from phobic to counter-phobic and back so quickly that you'd swear she's bipolar. One minute she'll bite the hand that feeds her, the next she's all apologetic and conflict avoidant. It's been an interesting observation.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> No I get it completely. I DO have a 6 wing, and my sister-in-law is a 6w5. I don't think I feel the affects of the 6 fear the same way though, because I trust that my knowledge will be enough in most situations.
> 
> My sister-in-law is living with us right now. She's getting out of a messy marriage to a very unhealthy 8 (I think). She was with him for 20 years, and he was very manipulative and physical with her. She's in this state right now where her fear responses are all jumbled up, like PTSD. She'll actually swing from phobic to counter-phobic and back so quickly that you'd swear she's bipolar. One minute she'll bite the hand that feeds her, the next she's all apologetic and conflict avoidant. It's been an interesting observation.


I totally get it though maybe not exactly the same. But the fears all jumbled together. Not sure if she's an introvert but that had much to do with me getting out of survival mode (panic mode) because I seriously needed recharge time. And quiet! lol! I suppose I just needed time. And the fact you feel your knowledge will protect you, that's so interesting to me because when I read that sentence I was scared. Lol! I think that's why I'm always looking for someone I can trust (to depend on like leaning on a tree, back up). I only find this unfortunately with other head types (though I think head types mostly attracted to heart types). Though consistency is so important so I would be apt to lean towards 5's vs. 7's from my experience. 7's are much too flaky (unless it's my brother but even he took a solid year to put in the new shower head I bought, lol!). Dependability and consistency is so important for a 6. It takes time and I'm sure she'll trust her safety net she now has and when she does, along with recharge time/space to detach and think, she'll get better. I'm so so sorry she's going through that.  though super happy she has someone. I had major PTSD that depending on context I'll get scared still but, it took me soooo long and, I just think it's so awesome she has the necessary support to speed that process along.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> I totally get it though maybe not exactly the same. But the fears all jumbled together. Not sure if she's an introvert but that had much to do with me getting out of survival mode (panic mode) because I seriously needed recharge time. And quiet! lol! I suppose I just needed time. And the fact you feel your knowledge will protect you, that's so interesting to me because when I read that sentence I was scared. Lol! I think that's why I'm always looking for someone I can trust (to depend on like leaning on a tree, back up). I only find this unfortunately with other head types (though I think head types mostly attracted to heart types). Though consistency is so important so I would be apt to lean towards 5's vs. 7's from my experience. 7's are much too flaky (unless it's my brother but even he took a solid year to put in the new shower head I bought, lol!). Dependability and consistency is so important for a 6. It takes time and I'm sure she'll trust her safety net she now has and when she does, along with recharge time/space to detach and think, she'll get better. I'm so so sorry she's going through that.  though super happy she has someone. I had major PTSD that depending on context I'll get scared still but, it took me soooo long and, I just think it's so awesome she has the necessary support to speed that process along.


I think it's going to take her a while to feel safe again. She's not aware of the enneagram, and I don't think it's time yet to show her. I'm pretty sure she's a 684, "The Truth Teller," she's a_ roiling fire ball_ of reactivity, it's like dealing with nitroglycerine!


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

ningsta kitty said:


> Thats contrary to the lecture from Helen Palmer I posted. That's why I inquired on the issue of courage in the first place. Not sure what's motivating your curiosity (your other thread I responded to), but if you're involved with a 6, I do hope you listen to the lecture.
> 
> I know it's a shitty recording but it's nice for those who don't want all the chapters (I plan on posting all 9 after the weekend).


Lol, surely Helen Palmer is not the only one allowed to have an opinion on the definition of courage, and surely the fact she's an author doesn't mean her definition is only correct definition  But shit, if her definition is that different and possibly life-changing, I would love to hear it.

And the recording isn't all that bad. It beats trying force my way through a silly vocaroo recording with an avalanche of noise in the background. It also beats reading ^.^


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I think it's going to take her a while to feel safe again. She's not aware of the enneagram, and I don't think it's time yet to show her. I'm pretty sure she's a 684, "The Truth Teller," she's a_ roiling fire ball_ of reactivity, it's like dealing with nitroglycerine!


Like I theorized !!  those with the 8 as a gut type are no doubt going to exhibit more outward reactivity. Lol! 

Honestly though, she's so lucky you're you. As an NT and a 5. You won't (hopefully) take things personal or get all flighty if it conjures bad feelings. You can just be all "meh". That method works the best for me. When someone just looks at me like I'm on crack and says, "are you done? Because missing the dry cleaning pick up time is not the end of the world" 

not minimizing her situation. What I mean is, it'll take time for her to stop reacting to the things that don't deserve a reaction (some reactions will be understandable) though the stupid ridiculous things .. That's when giving it no attention tends to help fade it out. 

I keep saying this but, when people overreact to my overreacting, I get scared (and feel rejected as if I'm bad). And when people don't pay attention to it , when they aren't bothered or even entertained, I feel safe (and even loved). I know. It's so backwards than lots of people.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Ace Face said:


> Lol, surely Helen Palmer is not the only one allowed to have an opinion on the definition of courage, and surely the fact she's an author doesn't mean her definition is only correct definition  But shit, if her definition is that different and possibly life-changing, I would love to hear it.
> 
> And the recording isn't all that bad. It beats trying force my way through a silly vocaroo recording with an avalanche of noise in the background. It also beats reading ^.^


 actually, I think your opinion of it may be accurate but more for other types. Courage to a 6 is a different thing like security. What other types think of security, isn't what it means for a 6. I tried to elaborate that in your thread. I know it's super annoying and weird. We're pretty much big babies :tongue:


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> Like I theorized !!  those with the 8 as a gut type are no doubt going to exhibit more outward reactivity. Lol!
> 
> Honestly though, she's so lucky you're you. As an NT and a 5. You won't (hopefully) take things personal or get all flighty if it conjures bad feelings. You can just be all "meh". That method works the best for me. When someone just looks at me like I'm on crack and says, "are you done? Because missing the dry cleaning pick up time is not the end of the world"
> 
> ...


It's not me she has to worry about. It's her 863 sister and her 269 mother! I live with three women, all of whom are related to each other.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> It's not me she has to worry about. It's her 863 sister and her 269 mother! I live with three women, all of whom are related to each other.


:shocked: You poor thing!! Lol!! That's just too much estrogen in one place during difficult times


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> :shocked: You poor thing!! Lol!! That's just too much estrogen in one place during difficult times



I'm coping. Mostly staying out of their way.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

It's not? I do mentally need to steel myself against fear. To be courageous is to make a conscious choice to take the action my body is physiologically begging me not to take (well I guess more like, the reptile part of my brain is begging me not to... it's all the brain...). Soo...


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Quernus said:


> It's not? I do mentally need to steel myself against fear. To be courageous is to make a conscious choice to take the action my body is physiologically begging me not to take (well I guess more like, the reptile part of my brain is begging me not to... it's all the brain...). Soo...


As I have been reminded in several threads, our fear responses are not identical. We all must hit up against that moment of "fight-or-flight," and choose. In my military experiences, the training kicked in before I really had a chance to think. This leads me to believe that regardless of the differences, it is possible to train most of us to handle fear differently than we might otherwise have.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

tanstaafl28 said:


> As I have been reminded in several threads, our fear responses are not identical. We all must hit up against that moment of "fight-or-flight," and choose. In my military experiences, the training kicked in before I really had a chance to think. This leads me to believe that regardless of the differences, it is possible to train most of us to handle fear differently than we might otherwise have.


i think this might be the difference between fight/flight response in general that applies to everyone, 6 or not because 6's have usually over thought the problem for some time so it's not necessarily a situation that requires instant action and is why the phobic/counterphobic dichotomy exists as a result. think of it as preparing for the fight/flight mode in itself or a more broad fight/flight mode, if that makes sense. just an observation :happy:


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

For me as six it's brain memory. I train it to go through various scenarios so it becomes automatic later on, so still very much a mind thing.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

ningsta kitty said:


> Where does courage come from if it isn't coming from your head ?
> I have no idea. I need to know.


I'd love to tell you that it comes from your gut (because it's true), but pragmatically, this is a vague, nebulous reply, especially for a Intuition dominant 6 (one of the least gut center-y types I can think of)

so to answer your question: you find courage when you find something which is worth confronting your fears for. we have fear for a reason: because facing dangerous situations without the prospect of high potential gain is fucking stupid and can get you killed. some examples of things which give different people something to fight for are:
- love (think of your son. what kind of danger would you be willing to put yourself through for his sake?)
- desire (if you want something enough, it's worth taking risks for
- lust (you are an Sx dom, I trust I don't need to explain this one :wink: )
-_ conviction_


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

The word for "courage" derives from the same word as "heart". Perhaps courage is about knowing your priorities and caring enough to stick with it, regardless of what your mind may logically try to tell you is going to happen.

But that's just a theory.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'd love to tell you that it comes from your gut (because it's true), but pragmatically, this is a vague, nebulous reply, especially for a Intuition dominant 6 (one of the least gut center-y types I can think of)


Oh you're telling me. Lol! I've said this many times before. I'm seriously detached from my body. When I look to pics of me, I'm like, "that's what I look like?" When I brush my teeth, looking in the mirror, I'm thinking. Or if I'm flossing, I'm thinking or concentrating on what I'm doing. I don't notice me in the mirror, really. I was worried I had that condition once where people think they're perpetually ugly because when I get compliments from pics I'll be shy about it. Turns out I don't have that mental condition. It was mostly because I haven't paid it much attention. 



Swordsman of Mana said:


> I'd love to tell you that it comes from your gut (because it's true), but pragmatically, this is a vague, nebulous reply, especially for a Intuition dominant 6 (one of the least gut center-y types I can think of)
> 
> 
> so to answer your question: you find courage when you find something which is worth confronting your fears for. we have fear for a reason: because facing dangerous situations without the prospect of high potential gain is fucking stupid and can get you killed. some examples of things which give different people something to fight for are:
> ...



Love for my son. Yeah, that's the constant every day worry and battle to figure out what's the right steps to get to where I want to go with career. It feels like taming a beast. I'm terrible at it.  I shy away from things and back track a lot. I have no problem seeing the game from afar but, when it comes to breaking it down step by step I get frazzled and fuck up. Still trying to figure it out. But courage is a constant to deal with that and in a way that's in my head. (Not sure if that's where I go wrong!) 

desire. I try. But not saying I'm all that successful. I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to learn and game plan what I can do better for the next time I try. But again, is that my problem? How do I relax and have courage without all the thinking? Lol! 

Lust. Eh, more like the desire of 1:1 relationship/closeness is there. But, I guess I'm Demi (as is news to me recently) because apparently people lust for people they haven't connected with. Weird!! 

I know my mind is good and has strengths but it's like the strengths impede my capacity to move forward and I wonder if it's that I try to utilize courage from a place where it doesn't reside. But, I'm probably just over thinking it. :tongue:


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> For me as six it's brain memory. I train it to go through various scenarios so it becomes automatic later on, so still very much a mind thing.


That's autosuggestive desensitization. That is, if it is desensitization.

It makes sense, as the habit of trying to be ahead of danger, when overthinking things, as a stimulus itself can reinforce fear conditioning, by the mere recollection itself of previous disaster and doom. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_and_memory

But what's the difference with creating your own imaginary Jeff Beck Survival Kit, and desensitisization rather than reinforcing fear?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> The word for "courage" derives from the same word as "heart". Perhaps courage is about knowing your priorities and caring enough to stick with it, *regardless of what your mind may logically try to tell you is going to happen.*
> 
> But that's just a theory.


The last bit I would call Faith, which happens to be point 6s Holy Idea. 

Which fwiw 'comes' from our throat, which you may notice in particular when you have to speak in front of a crowd.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

mimesis said:


> That's autosuggestive desensitization. That is, if it is desensitization.
> 
> It makes sense, as the habit of trying to be ahead of danger, when overthinking things, as a stimulus itself can reinforce fear conditioning, by the mere recollection itself of previous disaster and doom.
> 
> ...


I suppose it is desensitization. It's also a way of counteracting our how little connected we are to our gut responses. We have to train ourselves to have what look like a gut response to other people, because we don't come by that naturally. Otherwise we'd have to stop and think about what we're going to do next which wastes time in a survival situation.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> I suppose it is desensitization. It's also a way of counteracting our how little connected we are to our gut responses. * We have to train ourselves to have what look like a gut response to other people, because we don't come by that naturally.  Otherwise we'd have to stop and think about what we're going to do next which wastes time in a survival situation.*


*

I don't understand the bolded, can you explain this pls? What have other people to do with it? 

Everyone has gut responses, we are just not all as much aware of it physically, or aware of how it affects the ideation process. We usually rationalize our decisions (afterwards), consistent with our fixation. 5s fear of being overwhelmed or helpless is a gut response, and irrational. Of course, many would believe it's all in the mind. 

The problem for 6 is, from this perspective, that compulsively trying to be prepared is what may actually reinforce fear conditioning (explanation see link memory retention). Whether it is creating worst case scenarios or paranoid delusion of conspiracies or catching illness. But who's to tell what is realistic coping to survive, and what is compulsive, or delusional? "I'm not paranoid, I just want to make sure nobody's following me". 



plexus solaris said:



"Gut instinct" is the physical sensation of receiving guidance from the power chakra. Since the power chakra slso responds to your fear, it takes practice, healing and discernment to get the chakra and its signals clear enough to be reliable. You get a gut reaction, is it the power chakra acting to guide you, or is it your own fear? You have to get grounded and surrender the fear, before you can know for sure... but once you have done so, the power chakra is your best guide for navigating your day to day reality. (...)

The power chakra is part of the body's built in*lie detector. The B.S. detector of gut instinct. It contracts when you hear, read or think something that is not true. The tricky part is knowing when the reaction is to a lie, or to your fear. The power chakra responds to fear, so getting the lie detector to be reliable it takes some clearing of karmic debris, and /or being grounded.

http://kundalini-teacher.com/chakras/power.php

Click to expand...

*


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I don't understand the bolded, can you explain this pls? What have other people to do with it?
> 
> Everyone has gut responses, we are just not all as much aware of it physically, or aware of how it affects the ideation process. We usually rationalize our decisions (afterwards), consistent with our fixation. 5s fear of being overwhelmed or helpless is a gut response, and irrational. Of course, many would believe it's all in the mind.
> 
> The problem for 6 is, from this perspective, that compulsively trying to be prepared is what may actually reinforce fear conditioning (explanation see link memory retention). Whether it is creating worst case scenarios or paranoid delusion of conspiracies or catching illness. "I'm not paranoid, I just want to make sure nobody's following me".


Other people don't have much to do with it. I'm just saying it can appear to be a gut reaction to others, when really it's been well though out previously. And because we're out of touch with gut responses, it's the best way to deal with bad situations. Otherwise it's easy to get caught off guard and not have a clue what to do, because we're not in touch with our gut. And not knowing what to do leads to reactively running away or lashing out in a paranoid way, because you have no better idea of what to do. When your mind has been trained over various scenarios that could happen it automatically comes up with that as a solution, so it's easier to stay calm because you have a trained response to fall back on. You literally trick your mind into going we've been through this before, and it brings up a solution. When I get reactive it's because I get caught off guard. My mind doesn't have time to tell me what to do, and I've lost touch with my gut. Although you can train your brain to defeat that also. If you consistently repeat phrases to your brain over and over until they become subconscious such I am strong or I am calm, your brain will automatically bring up that when you get put in a bad situation and you don't have a clue what to do. And just the thought is usually enough to stop a chain reaction.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> Other people don't have much to do with it. I'm just saying it can appear to be a gut reaction to others, when really it's been well though out previously. And because we're out of touch with gut responses, it's the best way to deal with bad situations. Otherwise it's easy to get caught off guard and not have a clue what to do, because we're not in touch with our gut. And not knowing what to do leads to reactively running away or lashing out in a paranoid way, because you have no better idea of what to do. When your mind has been trained over various scenarios that could happen it automatically comes up with that as a solution, so it's easier to stay calm because you have a trained response to fall back on. You literally trick your mind into going we've been through this before, and it brings up a solution.


Often paranoid delusions and hypochondria happens to be "well thought of". They don't come "off guard".


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## Fire Away (Nov 29, 2013)

Your balls...


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

mimesis said:


> Often paranoid delusions and hypochondria happens to be "well thought of". They don't come "off guard".


Yeah but I'm talking about actual scenarios that are truly happening. Not just in your head. And yeah they're well thought of. When you go through the delusion over and over, if it actually happens, you have an inbuilt response. But I'm not talking about seeing stuff where there isn't anything going on. I mean actually being in a dangerous situation. I can tell the difference between a paranoid delusion and a real situation. The paranoid delusion is the training camp. It's the possibility. I know it's not been proven. It's just the training. It's like running through thousands of simulations in your head for the possibility of them ever occurring. Also remember I'm Ne aux so when I say thousands of simulations it's very complex. The possibilities are endless for how something could occur. So I end up going through millions of how this could occur. It's not like I have PTSD. I just see possibilities for everything and train my brain through the situations so it has a fall back point. Mind games are a useful tool, depending on circumstance. I have so many inbuilt layers of self hypnotism that I use as well as inbuilt awareness triggers i.e. a trigger that goes this is fake. You hypnotised your brain like this. I do all of this naturally though. It's something I inherently know how to do. It's not something I've studied much. I just recognize all the layers I've built into my brain. There is always another layer.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

@mimesis I don't always like the way I've programmed myself just to say. It keeps me very calm, but just thinking back it's a bit scary. I can go through a really dark patch 100% hell bent that I am fine. That there is nothing wrong. And when I come out and see how not fine I was, it's almost scary how well I programmed myself to be that way. So it's not like sixes always see danger everywhere. They can be full blown opposite and can be convinced that there are no problems.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> Yeah but I'm talking about actual scenarios that are truly happening. Not just in your head. And yeah they're well thought of. When you go through the delusion over and over, if it actually happens, you have an inbuilt response. But I'm not talking about seeing stuff where there isn't anything going on. I mean actually being in a dangerous situation. I can tell the difference between a paranoid delusion and a real situation. The paranoid delusion is the training camp. It's the possibility. I know it's not been proven. It's just the training. It's like running through thousands of simulations in your head for the possibility of them ever occurring. Also remember I'm Ne aux so when I say thousands of simulations it's very complex. The possibilities are endless for how something could occur. So I end up going through millions of how this could occur. It's not like I have PTSD. I just see possibilities for everything and train my brain through the situations so it has a fall back point. Mind games are a useful tool, depending on circumstance. I have so many inbuilt layers of self hypnotism that I use as well as inbuilt awareness triggers i.e. a trigger that goes this is fake. You hypnotised your brain like this. I do all of this naturally though. It's something I inherently know how to do. It's not something I've studied much. I just recognize all the layers I've built into my brain. There is always another layer.


I'm Ne aux too and I try and be prepared too. I know how it works in conjunction with Si. I do that much less than I used to, when I worried a lot more. And I know how it can go haywire and berserk. 

Thing is, of all those endless possibilities just one, and maybe not even one is going to happen. There is also availability bias, hindsight bias ("I knew it all along, this won't happen to me next time!") and projection bias, thinking the next time is happening, and reactively, perhaps counter-phobically respond, fierce and brave -when it turns out what you thought was happening, was actually not happening!

I've accepted that I cannot prepare myself for anything to happen, and try to use my Ne more as concrete intuition, more attuned to here and now.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> @mimesis I don't always like the way I've programmed myself just to say. It keeps me very calm, but just thinking back it's a bit scary. I can go through a really dark patch 100% hell bent that I am fine. That there is nothing wrong. And when I come out and see how not fine I was, it's almost scary how well I programmed myself to be that way. So it's not like sixes always see danger everywhere. They can be full blown opposite and can be convinced that there are no problems.


Yeah, that's the other side of projection bias indeed. But I know it's not just about fearing danger. And I don't mean to stress that paranoid side. But the mechanisms are similar to 4 or 5 anticipations and coping strategies, that they can reinforce fear. And sometimes to illustrate, you need to exaggerate, blow up proportions to see the dynamic.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

mimesis said:


> I'm Ne aux too and I try and be prepared too. I know how it works in conjunction with Si. I do that much less than I used to, when I worried a lot more. And I know how it can go haywire and berserk.
> 
> Thing is, of all those endless possibilities just one, and maybe not even one is going to happen. There is also availability bias, hindsight bias ("I knew it all along, this won't happen to me next time!") and projection bias, thinking the next time is happening, and reactively, perhaps counter-phobically respond, fierce and brave -when it turns out what you thought was happening, was actually not happening!
> 
> I've accepted that I cannot prepare myself for anything to happen, and try to use my Ne more as concrete intuition, more attuned to here and now.


well I don't disagree. It's just that I tend to not go for overblown reactions because I know the likelihood of not being able to predict is not great. The amount of thoughts going through my head for anyone action I make is very high. lol. Because all of those types of thoughts go through my head every single time. This is why being calm and making very calculated moves is how I generally go about things. But I'm also Ti dom and Ti is good at predicting what is most likely. I tend to narrow down Ne with Ti. I see my life kinda like a gigantic chess board. And honestly, I'm going to admit I enjoy the games. Trying to figure people out and seeing how everything connects is really quite fun. But I do try to be more attuned to here and now. It's just I can't quite get rid of the enjoyment of laying out all the facts and possibilities and narrowing them down until I get to the most likely option. In fact, I will have to say, when I'm level headed my track record for being correct is fairly high. Not to say I'm never wrong, but that's usually when I let my bias skew the data, so I have to take that into account. But I have also learned to be more attune to here and now, which I also take fully into account as well. My brain sounds complicated when I write it out.  I don't know how I manage to keep all those thoughts going on all at the same time. But it is enjoyable, which is why I haven't let it go entirely. I like games. Life is like a massive game. I combine it all with gut instincts now though. Once I learned to be aware of them I started taking them into account. They're very valuable as well. I try to compare logic with instinct and see how closely they tend to align. other sixes like to tell me that I'm overly confident in my ability to deduce things or just know things, and that I should be more doubtful :laughing: the irony is great. I'm not scared to be wrong though. Not if my conclusion feels right and also is as logically sound as I can make it. I'll happily take a bit of a leap and face being wrong.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

mimesis said:


> Which fwiw 'comes' from our throat, which you may notice in particular when you have to speak in front of a crowd.


You'll have to explain that to me (serious request).


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> You'll have to explain that to me (serious request).


You may experience a "lump in your throat". Not that it's necessarily connected to speaking in front of a crowd, but that's when you may become most aware of it.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

Arya said:


> other sixes like to tell me that I'm overly confident in my ability to deduce things or just know things, and that I should be more doubtful :laughing: the irony is great. I'm not scared to be wrong though. Not if my conclusion feels right and also is as logically sound as I can make it. I'll happily take a bit of a leap and face being wrong.


That would be a leap of faith.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

First: How is this thread relevant to this particular sub-forum?

Second: How do you know your mind even exists at all? In that case where does anything come from if not from your mind?


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## braided pain (Jul 6, 2012)

It seems to me -- and this is the kind of thought I don't know how to put into words, really -- that the way to deal with the core of each center is to draw on the other two. To genuinely deal with fear requires drawing on the heart and the gut; to deal with anger, you draw on heart and mind; to deal with shame you draw on your mind and your gut.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

braided pain said:


> It seems to me -- and this is the kind of thought I don't know how to put into words, really -- that the way to deal with the core of each center is to draw on the other two. To genuinely deal with fear requires drawing on the heart and the gut; to deal with anger, you draw on heart and mind; to deal with shame you draw on your mind and your gut.


Out of curiosity, how to you come up with which centers to draw upon for what? I know you said it was hard to put in words but the worse you could do is say no so I'm asking.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

ScarlettHayden said:


> First: How is this thread relevant to this particular sub-forum?


i wanted to see the other enneagrams perspective (and utilization(?)) of courage. As a 6, it's something I use every day in my head - it's sorta like a residue of fear in how I think - not like I'm consciously afraid of my own shadow. Likewise, courage is a sort of residue in how I think - once again, in my mind. And it creates an energy that's perceived by others as (well, however you want to stereotype a Sx dom 6/cp). They say 6's benefit from meditation and things, to relax and get out of the head, and that courage is not suppose to come from the mind(or maybe not only the mind). So I'm asking. Lol! Because I'm thinking about it. lol! (I'm so ironic )


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## braided pain (Jul 6, 2012)

ningsta kitty said:


> Out of curiosity, how to you come up with which centers to draw upon for what? I know you said it was hard to put in words but the worse you could do is say no so I'm asking.


The triads. Fear=head center, 567; anger=gut center, 891, shame=heart center, 234. 

Those body designations aren't just a nice metaphor, they're where the types literally center their energy. (It's one of those things I can't explain, but once you see it you can't unsee it.) I think you have to spread that out when you get trapped in the negative side of your type.

I may still not be making sense, sorry.


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## petite libellule (Jul 4, 2012)

braided pain said:


> The triads. Fear=head center, 567; anger=gut center, 891, shame=heart center, 234.
> 
> Those body designations aren't just a nice metaphor, they're where the types literally center their energy. (It's one of those things I can't explain, but once you see it you can't unsee it.) I think you have to spread that out when you get trapped in the negative side of your type.
> 
> I may still not be making sense, sorry.


haha, this is not you I promise. but. I'm confused.  everything is in my head.


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