# Why is the Enneagram so bad at actually showing you HOW to grow?



## kaleidoscope (Jan 19, 2012)

mushr00m said:


> This saying - Whats the worst that could possibly happen? - has stuck with me for a long time and has propelled me into fearful situations. Things look terrifying when you look at them through the window but when you step out the door, thats when the real change happens.
> 
> @_kaleidoscope_ That SM post was excellent. So much more suddenly makes sense!
> Dang, this in a nutshell. I feel icky :blushed:


I'm so glad it helped! I'm seriously tempted to post at the very least Maitri's recommendations in each enneatype's forum. She's an excellent Enneagram author, and I have a feeling her growth suggestions will prove to be much more helpful than anything people will find online.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm so glad it helped! I'm seriously tempted to post at the very least Maitri's recommendations in each enneatype's forum. She's an excellent Enneagram author, and I have a feeling her growth suggestions will prove to be much more helpful than anything people will find online.


I think they would help immensely. She has a warm, nurturing approach which is nice and what you need really when going about deep psyche transformation, how the information is delivered is very important and I think she gets it just right. She's on my shopping list, so glad to be able to find something that seems to understand the types pains so deeply.


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

snowbell said:


> Hi all, and thank you for the responses: much appreciated :happy:. I'll reply to them in sequence when able.
> That makes sense, but I ask two questions.
> 
> 1: If it all boils down to choice, why do so few people (Gurdjeff, etc that were mentioned earlier, and most especially those who are writing the profiles) actually say that? I mean, if they can do all the work and construct/expand upon the system, why don't profiles end with a simple statement along the lines of "you must actually choose the correct choice - namely to not perpetuate the cycle, if you want to grow". For example, if you look at MBTI, it seems a lot of the ones that deal with relationships clearly state that MBTI compatibility is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to relationships, and that any two (or more people) of any type can do well in a relationship provided they are communicative, well developed, etc as the case may be.
> ...


Good deductions. Yeah, I also think our type's habits can be like an addiction. We know it can be bad, but we need support, other ways to get through it than just being told to "stop."

As a four, what's hard for me is letting things go, letting past hurts go and no longer affect me negatively. Cuz for sure someone else comes along and says a mean thing and there I go again, remembering all my bad experiences, compounding the bad feeling all over again.

So I watch videos about how to let go. Things that the enneagram tells me to do, but doesn't always provide more info about.











They say 4's need to learn to be more appreciative of what they have. So I read online about "gratitude journals"...writing up a page each day of things we are grateful for at the moment. And I buy a book called "Gratitude: a Journey that will change your life" on amazon (unfortunately it get's stolen and I never read it...) But I think if the enneagram could at least point us in the right direction, then I will find ways to move there, even if it means finding other sources. If the enneagram will provide the spark, then that is enough, cause I think there is many ways to growth. Not all paths are meant for everyone. You will have to decide for yourself what things you can see working for you.

If you're lucky, you will find resources that were actually written by 6's. I think that is the best feeling. When I find a source that seems written by someone, a four, who has really been where I have been and is sharing steps to their growth. I feel at home. I no longer feel scolded. I mean, most of the enneagram personal growth stuff is being written through the eyes of someone who could be a completely different type as you, therefore they are providing advice through *their* lens. They might not see how hard it is for you to accept their words because they haven't lived it. If they lived it, they would know exactly what to say to get you to where you need to be.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

@snowbell

I think it may help for you to understand that the Enneagram is only considered a map or insight into how you work. The actual work will come from somewhere else. The Enneagram can help guide that work. This was how the Enneagram was originally used by Ichazo and Naranjo (the two people credited with the origins of the Enneagram types). 

Ichazo started the Arica school which has nothing to do with the personality types. Naranjo works with SAT but I don't know of much available online or published about that. Almaas and Maitri were involved with Naranjo's SAT workshops in the early days and both work in the Ridwhan school using the Diamond Approach, but from what I've read, that process can take years. They do have books available, but for me the material is somewhat vague (just my opinion though).

I'd suggest looking into Tom Condon's materials. He uses NLP approaches and he types himself as a 6w7. Do a search on youtube.com for his name (Tom Condon or Thomas Condon) and you'll find a lot of video excerpts of the material he sells at his website thechangeworks.com. David Daniels also types himself as a 6w7. He works with Helen Palmer at enneagramworldwide.com and has a very to-the-point book out (though I don't remember how his suggestions for growth were in the book).


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

Octavarium said:


> As @kaleidoscope said, the personal growth suggestions are quite simple; it's not that difficult to work out what each type needs to do to grow. What is much more difficult, however, is implementing those suggestions, because it means loosening our grip on the defences we believe we need in order to survive and feel secure in the world. We cling on to our defences, even if we know that they're making us suffer - I think one of the most useful things about the enneagram is that it shows us how we're making ourselves suffer.
> 
> Your alcoholic analogy is actually a very good one. What an alcoholic needs to do is to stop drinking. It's that simple, yet at the same time it's much more complex than that. It's not realistic to expect them to suddenly stop drinking altogether, because they are physically and psychologically addicted; they believe they need the alcohol, even if they're aware that it's harming them and making them suffer. It is possible to stop, though, by gradually cutting down. Similarly, we can't suddenly decide to let go of our defences, but we can gradually loosen our grip on them.


Yes this make sense to me, in some ways; perhaps because the biggest step for an alcholic, or the first and most initial step before anything else can get done, is admitting they have a problem and their behavior is a coping mechanism, and seeing their behavior as such. And then stop the behavior. Enneagram is the same way. Normally we walk around with the narrative & compensating ego structure of whatever type we are, and justify that behavior, but enneagram is like your intervention: Hey, you're not just having a good time and kicking back a few drinks to get through the rough patch like you think you are, you have a problem, and recognizing that is a good first step.


Obviously, though, I find there are problems in mbti, jcf, and enneagram too, that main one being it may be an ever-expanding categorical system that is abritrary in base that we assign ourselves too, and then commit to seeing behavior in those certain patterns, and it may be a self-fufilling prophecy, and it may be limiting our intellectual and emotional perspective at times, especially we use it wrong or take it too seriously, or rely on it too much.


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## snowbell (Apr 2, 2012)

adverseaffects said:


> Really, I found enneagram to be very helpful that way.
> 
> personal growth for all the types:
> Personal Growth and Spiritual Growth Through the Enneagram
> ...


Thanks :happy:. That link is quite helpful. 

I've signed up for the EnneaThought of the Day but so far it isn't as helpful as I'd like for it to be. 



Octavarium said:


> As @_kaleidoscope_ said, the personal growth suggestions are quite simple; it's not that difficult to work out what each type needs to do to grow. *What is much more difficult, however, is implementing those suggestions, because it means loosening our grip on the defences we believe we need in order to survive and feel secure in the world.* We cling on to our defences, even if we know that they're making us suffer - I think one of the most useful things about the enneagram is that it shows us how we're making ourselves suffer.
> 
> Your alcoholic analogy is actually a very good one. What an alcoholic needs to do is to stop drinking. It's that simple, yet at the same time it's much more complex than that. It's not realistic to expect them to suddenly stop drinking altogether, because they are physically and psychologically addicted; they believe they need the alcohol, even if they're aware that it's harming them and making them suffer. It is possible to stop, though, by gradually cutting down. Similarly, we can't suddenly decide to let go of our defences, but we can gradually loosen our grip on them.


Exactly my point. This is where the rubber meets the road, and where the help should be at its most effective, not its least effective. 

Thank you - that was my intent behind using alcoholism - something that is more than just "oh I can quit any time" and seems to come close to mirroring the sense of despondency the Enneagram can provoke in terms of the difficulty in moving past one's vice, but while also having a set of practical strategies that can help you to do so.



kaleidoscope said:


> Great point. In response to @_snowbell_, *I don't think proposing an exact strategy, with a specific list of steps, would be helpful. Every individual thinks differently, and copes in a way that may not work for someone else.* Going back to the alcohol analogy, while some prefer gradually cutting down, others would rather stop altogether. *There are a million ways to get past an issue, and you just have to find the one that fits your personality best.*


I'm sorry, @kaleidoscope, but this is a cop-out for exactly the same reason I mentioned in the OP. 

Why is it practical to believe that the 6 (low estimate) billion people on Earth are all fundamentally broken in one way because they've fallen away from their "Holy Idea" and all fit into one of 9 types, but when it comes to finding a solution to all of these people it's "impractical" because people think differently? The problem for each person within a certain type is the same, therefore, the solution is likely going to be the same, or at least very similar, no? The manifestation of the problem may differ between persons of the same type, but so then, can the solution. At the very least, proposing an exact strategy, with a set amount of steps, is proposing *something* rather than just leaving it up in the air. (and @LeaT this applies to your response, too): as it stands, you're (hypothetical) being told that you're the one who is broken by someone with a Psychology degree, and several years of experience counselling others, writing papers, perhaps books, etc, but because you're unique, you have to construct your own response because "you know yourself best". If that's the case, and you know yourself best, why does the Enneagram not teach that some people don't actually fit into one of the 9 types? You can't have your cake and eat it.

If the self-growth advice is so easy when one thinks about it, why is it that the question remains unanswered? *How* does the 8 "let go" of their anger and allow themselves to be vulnerable, after having had their fiancée cheat on them with their best friend?

That said, thank you for quoting Maitri - I'll definitely need to read what was quoted and get back to you.


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## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

@snowbell
the daily e-mails tend to differ in subject, but it's very possible the four ones may resonate with me more personally than the 6 ones will for you.

I will also say, when I was more healthy, they didn't do anything for me. But when I started doing poorly, they really helped me. It may be possible if enneagram is not giving you insight, you just don't need it.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

kaleidoscope said:


> I'm so glad it helped! I'm seriously tempted to post at the very least Maitri's recommendations in each enneatype's forum. She's an excellent Enneagram author, and I have a feeling her growth suggestions will prove to be much more helpful than anything people will find online.


PLEASE do this.

I think @snowbell is raising some really good questions here...what DO we do to improve? Nothing I've read online has been terribly profound thus far. It seems I'm not the only one who feels this way.


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## madhatter (May 30, 2010)

Snowbell, you sound exactly like my brother, it's almost eerie. He's INFP 6w7. I can almost imagine you speaking, your tone of writing reminded me so much of him, right down to the "fair enough". It made me smile. 

Now onto the response: 



snowbell said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I apologise for misunderstanding you - may you please explain again so I can better understand and respond to you? That said I'd like to point out that that's what some of the advice comes down to. For example:
> 
> I would like to know what that means to you. Reason I ask is because it's for the 5, and also because it's doing exactly what I described earlier, namely saying something without showing how. What's meant by "present" and what's meant by "engaged"? They ignore defining the term and further that actually being "present" requires tremendous effort and awareness, such that most don't even bother to do it. It's the same thing with "engaged", they don't say what it is, or how, how to measure success when engaged, or not, and what the benefits are. You're left to deduce all of this on your own. Of course that's an example that really isn't helpful to the author, but it seems to me that most of the help tips do this in one way or another.


As a 5, this piece of advice strikes a particular chord with me. The terms don't need to be defined for me, but I've made it my business to know the ins and outs of my type. A newbie coming into this system might be confused by the vague terms. Also, I agree with you that the tone of advice kind of takes on the timber of "man up, quit drinking". Maybe I should have started by saying that I do agree with you that this area of Enneagram descriptions and materials is somewhat lacking lol. (There's one example of me trying to exercise personal growth!) When something's lacking, I just tend to fill in the blanks with my own experience and understanding, which is why I haven't worried about it too much. Hence, me filling in the idea of personal growth with my philosophy of choice. 



> Right. And don't get me wrong, the Enneagram is good at self-awareness. It's actually taking that self-awareness, and fashioning it into a cohesive system / blueprint of growth (by which I mean overcoming the limitations of your vice), and specifically the method of doing so, that is badly done (if at all).
> 
> Like, look at what you said. By virtue of being at least aware of some of the Enneagram teaching, we (I mean the posters in here, myself included) have gained a bit of self-awareness as to some of our more intrinsic behavior patterns. The second part of your statement, though, deals with seeking help. Where, though, do you go for the help? What is the help, though, aside from "be vigilant and watchful to not repeat the patterns", and the personal growth tips such as have been linked here?
> 
> ...


Where you go for the help is a good question. Some people might not have a place to go for this help. Like, I've discovered something about myself, I have this tendency that I don't like or is not good for me in the long run. I want you to call me out on that if you see me doing that. I am blessed that I have people that care enough to hold me accountable. This can help, but for me at least, it all comes back to that choice, that decision that I want to be better than I am. It's as simple as that, and as complicated as that all at the same time. The personal growth stuff is kept vague and general, because there is no way it can cover everyone's personal experiences. They are just guidelines. I do think, and I think you'll agree, that maybe they could include personal anecdotes; I use anecdotes and experiences frequently when trying to understand Enneagram and other personality systems.

For example, you ask, how can a 8 learn to let go of their anger? Well, I would ask my dad, the 8, how he learned to let go of the rage that consumed him from his abusive childhood. For a long time, he didn't learn. But life knocked him on his ass, and he realized that he had a major problem with anger and control issues, and he got that help. His counselor gave him some great advice, and he still uses that method when he starts feeling that rage. Basically, his counselor told him, "everyone has a plate of life, and you can only have so much on that plate at a time. You can't control everything, you don't have enough energy. You have issues with your parents? They're 20 years dead. You don't have to worry about them anymore. Clear it off your plate." He got that advice 13 years ago, and he still has to use it. Like the recovering alcoholic. And there are times that he does not succeed, and the anger gets the better of him. But I can say now that he's much better with his anger now than he was 15 years ago.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

snowbell said:


> Exactly my point. This is where the rubber meets the road, and where the help should be at its most effective, not its least effective.
> 
> Thank you - that was my intent behind using alcoholism - something that is more than just "oh I can quit any time" and seems to come close to mirroring the sense of despondency the Enneagram can provoke in terms of the difficulty in moving past one's vice, but while also having a set of practical strategies that can help you to do so.


Im not sure if alcoholism is quite an analogy id use as suggested earlier just because it doesn't quite match up with type patterns and because of the nature of the types, it doesn't seem fitting, I figured if we are going to use an analogy which might help with overall pattern of the addictive behaviour in type, I mean, is it actually an addiction? I suppose it definitely has an element of compulsion though types actions become automatic suggesting a predisposition set within that type, we are already orientated to that pattern.

_Addiction
*a. * The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or involved in something. _

So considering that, the best we can do is to reframe our insecurities without attempting to change our overall internal structure. Im thinking, our type traits are not something that are faults independent of our core, they still run as part of the core character but have turned maladjusted. Health levels indicate the level of maladjustment, however, somebody with more inborn insecurities will exhibit higher maladjusted traits, this person could also be disintegrated, taking on the worst of that type's characteristics and be in low health levels but not for long in higher health levels. Another person with more adjusted traits in general, less reason to adopt type defense strategies in a compulsive way but has suddenly found themself in tragic or type defense provoking situations will fall down the health level ladder and in prolonged circumstances will take on the disintegration characteristics. 

You can't fit a round peg in a square hole though and bear in mind, our expectations in modern society are ever more specific and it takes a certain frame of perception to get the right peg for the right sized hole. I just think your current perception for approaching this is a little too deductive, trying to fit round pegs in square holes and that will not work imo, it will lead to endless frustration and questioning the system of it, when really have you wandered if your over searching for the answer was something you have inside, it really is not that cryptic in a sense, its fluid for sure, like it has been mentioned before, knowing your type gives you the instructions of how the type works, now you have to come up with those solutions using your own intuition based on what you have discovered but you want to know how to why afterall that in depth study of maladjusted patterns, why no specific solution is immediately available, because of the round/peg hole thing. Self awareness is key here, you should question your own intentions as much as the system you are searching and question the direction you are taking.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

snowbell said:


> . (and @_LeaT_ this applies to your response, too): as it stands, you're (hypothetical) being told that you're the one who is broken by someone with a Psychology degree, and several years of experience counselling others, writing papers, perhaps books, etc, but because you're unique, you have to construct your own response because "you know yourself best". If that's the case, and you know yourself best, why does the Enneagram not teach that some people don't actually fit into one of the 9 types? You can't have your cake and eat it.
> 
> If the self-growth advice is so easy when one thinks about it, why is it that the question remains unanswered? *How* does the 8 "let go" of their anger and allow themselves to be vulnerable, after having had their fiancée cheat on them with their best friend?


I'll respond then. The reason why is because I think the circumstances why we are broken differs. To go back to your example about alcoholism, some people become alcoholic because they are genetically predisposed and they were party animals when younger and got too much of a taste for alcohol. Some people start drinking because it's a way for them to deal with a feeling of anxiety e.g. losing a job, wife/husband left them, others drink simply because they happened to participate in a culture that promotes getting drunk a bit too often and easily, often drink because they want to fit in and belong.

The end result is the same - they all become alcoholics, but _why_ they became alcoholics differ. Naranjo does try to outilne a general trend in childhood experiences linked to type but even so, the coping strategies we adopted we did because of our unique circumstances. 

And I don't think the enneagram never said a person will absolutely have to fit one type. If that's true, I don't see the need for tritype, wing and subtype theory, or for the matter, that people actually exhibit the traits of all 9 types. Instead, what one is looking at are trends and tendencies which is just the same as it is with the MBTI and socionics. Especially in socionics, that is a very developed system with a lot of refinements (intertype, Reinin, quadra values, IE and IM, subtype, DCHN, VI...) it is obvious you will not fit your type exactly. I type as EII in socionics and while some elements describe me well some elements don't describe me as well. It's obvious when we take a random type description from the internet that people are more unique and that type comes in all forms and sizes because humans come in all forms and sizes. Type cannot describe the totality of a person but only a specific element of personality. This is why I think one shouldn't offer too concrete examples because chances are people will feel left out for the same reason a person might not feel they fit into their type description they found on the internet.

Case in point, I was recommended to read about attachment styles and the book also came with clear suggestions based on CBT of how to circumvent said attachment style issues. The problem however, was that I couldn't fully identify with any of the attachment styles described in the book, nor did I feel that the practical CBT methods offered to me were that useful (e.g. practice mindfulness/meditation). 

Essentially, one could say it was simply a different approach to enneagram subtype (they describe the same type of behavior and how to circumvent), but ultimately I found that enneagram described me better and gave me more options to understand my problems than reading about attachment styles and CBT methods did. Some people such as myself prefer to find their own ways to figure out their problems and how to solve them, others might something more concrete. It's impossible to please everyone. And even if you're one of those people who desires something more concrete, chances are that some of the methods offered might not be useful in the first place because it doesn't quite apply to your life situation. 

Which is why we again go back to the importance of awareness and acceptance of problems. If you know what the problem is, it's also easier to come up with a solution. The solution to 5 is very simple - do more, think less. In fact, it's something I've inherently known for a long time now because I've known of my avarice issues and been aware of them for a long time and the issue is that I tend often feel like I don't have enough energy to deal with things, and this is before I even got to know about the enneagram. It just gave it a name. But I mean, "to do" for me might not be the same like it is for say, madhatter or Flatliner. Issues that to me might feel draining (perhaps because of differences in MBTI type) might not be an issue for them. 

And then we come back to that personality type can only explain parts of who we are but not the totality of who we are. I can use various theories (enneagram, MBTI, socionics) but to explain these aspects but they will still not capture the essence of me and all that I am. I doubt any theory will, at least anytime soon. I don't think it's a cop-out but rather a realization of the theory's limits.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

snowbell said:


> . (and @_LeaT_ this applies to your response, too): as it stands, you're (hypothetical) being told that you're the one who is broken by someone with a Psychology degree, and several years of experience counselling others, writing papers, perhaps books, etc, but because you're unique, you have to construct your own response because "you know yourself best". If that's the case, and you know yourself best, why does the Enneagram not teach that some people don't actually fit into one of the 9 types? You can't have your cake and eat it.
> 
> If the self-growth advice is so easy when one thinks about it, why is it that the question remains unanswered? *How* does the 8 "let go" of their anger and allow themselves to be vulnerable, after having had their fiancée cheat on them with their best friend?


I'll respond then. The reason why is because I think the circumstances why we are broken differs. To go back to your example about alcoholism, some people become alcoholic because they are genetically predisposed and they were party animals when younger and got too much of a taste for alcohol. Some people start drinking because it's a way for them to deal with a feeling of anxiety e.g. losing a job, wife/husband left them, others drink simply because they happened to participate in a culture that promotes getting drunk a bit too often and easily, often drink because they want to fit in and belong.

The end result is the same - they all become alcoholics, but _why_ they became alcoholics differ. Naranjo does try to outilne a general trend in childhood experiences linked to type but even so, the coping strategies we adopted we did because of our unique circumstances. 

And I don't think the enneagram never said a person will absolutely have to fit one type. If that's true, I don't see the need for tritype, wing and subtype theory, or for the matter, that people actually exhibit the traits of all 9 types. Instead, what one is looking at are trends and tendencies which is just the same as it is with the MBTI and socionics. Especially in socionics, that is a very developed system with a lot of refinements (intertype, Reinin, quadra values, IE and IM, subtype, DCHN, VI...) it is obvious you will not fit your type exactly. I type as EII in socionics and while some elements describe me well some elements don't describe me as well. It's obvious when we take a random type description from the internet that people are more unique and that type comes in all forms and sizes because humans come in all forms and sizes. Type cannot describe the totality of a person but only a specific element of personality. This is why I think one shouldn't offer too concrete examples because chances are people will feel left out for the same reason a person might not feel they fit into their type description they found on the internet.

Case in point, I was recommended to read about attachment styles and the book also came with clear suggestions based on CBT of how to circumvent said attachment style issues. The problem however, was that I couldn't fully identify with any of the attachment styles described in the book, nor did I feel that the practical CBT methods offered to me were that useful (e.g. practice mindfulness/meditation). 

Essentially, one could say it was simply a different approach to enneagram subtype (they describe the same type of behavior and how to circumvent), but ultimately I found that enneagram described me better and gave me more options to understand my problems than reading about attachment styles and CBT methods did. Some people such as myself prefer to find their own ways to figure out their problems and how to solve them, others might something more concrete. It's impossible to please everyone. And even if you're one of those people who desires something more concrete, chances are that some of the methods offered might not be useful in the first place because it doesn't quite apply to your life situation. 

Which is why we again go back to the importance of awareness and acceptance of problems. If you know what the problem is, it's also easier to come up with a solution. The solution to 5 is very simple - do more, think less. In fact, it's something I've inherently known for a long time now because I've known of my avarice issues and been aware of them for a long time and the issue is that I tend often feel like I don't have enough energy to deal with things, and this is before I even got to know about the enneagram. It just gave it a name. But I mean, "to do" for me might not be the same like it is for say, madhatter or Flatliner. Issues that to me might feel draining (perhaps because of differences in MBTI type) might not be an issue for them. 

And then we come back to that personality type can only explain parts of who we are but not the totality of who we are. I can use various theories (enneagram, MBTI, socionics) but to explain these aspects but they will still not capture the essence of me and all that I am. I doubt any theory will, at least anytime soon. I don't think it's a cop-out but rather a realization of the theory's limits.

So to answer your question about the 8 who needs to learn to let go, the answer is simple: he needs to find what makes him feel vulnerable and why. Again, that is unique to him and will not and cannot apply to all 8s. The basic solution to integrate to 2 is simple - stop be selfish and take things for yourself and start giving and show some care and love. But again, why one feels vulnerable has many answers. 8s use anger to cover up their sense of vulnerability so for someone who was sexually abused by their parent, their sense of vulnerability will not be the same for someone who a parent that was just easily prone to anger.


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## frenchie (Jul 7, 2011)

snowbell said:


> The map may be there (what's wrong), and you might have the car (why it's wrong), but without any gas in the tank you're not going to go anywhere (assuming where you want to go is only reachable by car) (how to get to a better place).
> 
> I agree, that we have free will, and that it can't realistically be used to tell you how to live your life, but if it's so good at pointing us to why we're so broken, why can't it point a way to how to fix ourselves rather than leaving it up to self awareness and the desire to change?
> 
> ...


This is all from my perspective:

The point I was trying to make really is that the enneagram has helped show a mirror on behaviors and habits I have that I'm really just too dense to see. It took me a few months of pretty heavy research to understand how each type is interconnected. 

I always tested as a type 8 which come on lets be real is not me. I'm pretty ballsy but I lose steam too easily. I have pretty bad habits and responses to certain kinds of problems. The horrible thing is I am too dumb to identify the pattern of behavior that led me to those situations.

The enneagram helped me at least see those habits on paper which for better or for worse helped show me what I was doing wrong. Sometimes all it really takes is some light on the subject to make a better move in the right direction (going back to my topographical map example).

If it isn't doing anything for you or helping shine some light onto the question of why you do things the way you do, then why are you still here? Go out and do something else :wink:


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

snowbell said:


> I ask a simple question.
> 
> If the Enneagram is a system for self-growth, why is it that the profiles and theory focuses more on self-awareness, and more often than not ignore aspects of actually getting to self-growth, and breaking past the patterns that are intrinsic in one's nature?
> 
> ...


I find the books do talk about self growth - self-awareness is a major part of that and the first step. I think most people over-think self-growth and try very hard to think themselves into a different way of being. When you actually stop trying so hard, accept things as they are, and are aware of your thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, patterns, etc then you can start accepting who you are and letting go in an easier and more natural way.

Think about any types negative patterns or coping tendencies - we've all been stuck in our types patterns for our whole lives and most of us feel like we go around and around in cycles of wanting to change, making temporary change, and then eventually falling back into old patterns. Most people don't realize that awareness is simply the first step to do something different and changing the cycle. If you've been stuck in the same cycle for so long, what's the harm in experimenting with thinking and reacting in a different way?

My partner is a 6w7 and has spent the last 6 months freaking out over his practicum work. The feedback he gets is that he relies too much on checking in with his supervisor and over-thinks situations too much. Finally last week he came and said, "I realized I _have_ been over-thinking too much." Suddenly something clicked and he started doing things differently - instead of trying to over-prepare and over-think about how a conversation with a client would go, he tried to just make it a natural conversation and it finally flowed and he felt like he knew what he was doing.

Most of this change takes years. Many people start down the path of self growth and will have many little "ah-ha!" and lightbulb moments as they go. I personally like to re-read the books I've found most helpful for self-growth and every time I re-visit something I missed in a previous reading makes sense in a totally new way.

I would recommend anyone wanting to take up the recommendations of Naranjo and Riso and Hudson to pick up the book _Full Catastrophe Living. _It's a very good starting point to expand on the enneagram recommendations.



snowbell said:


> 1: If it all boils down to choice, why do so few people (Gurdjeff, etc that were mentioned earlier, and most especially those who are writing the profiles) actually say that? I mean, if they can do all the work and construct/expand upon the system, why don't profiles end with a simple statement along the lines of "you must actually choose the correct choice - namely to not perpetuate the cycle, if you want to grow". For example, if you look at MBTI, it seems a lot of the ones that deal with relationships clearly state that MBTI compatibility is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to relationships, and that any two (or more people) of any type can do well in a relationship provided they are communicative, well developed, etc as the case may be.
> 
> 2: Aren't most things in life down to choice? I don't know how much of a partygoer you are, or what your system for deciding what parties to attend and when, but you do have a choice, and it would seem that that is sufficient to work for you. However, an alcoholic person who drinks daily, or even more than they like, has a choice to take that next drink, but clearly telling them that the solution to their alcoholism is to "stop drinking" doesn't really help. Yes, it's the solution, but it needs more in terms of support, how to do it, alternative opportunities for satisfying the craving, etc, if that makes sense? I realize that's kinda unfair considering alcoholism seems to come with a change in the brain and actual addiction, but is it a far stretch to say that we're addicted to the (in the Enneagram) unhelpful choices we make that perpetuate the cycle? I don't think so given how deep the flaw runs and how hard it is to actually break out of it.
> 
> ...


While you're stuck in a cycle of worrying about growing and trying to force self growth to happen, it probably won't in any big ways. Even accepting that fact is a start. I don't think it's quite so simple as making a different choice - yes, at it's core that's what needs to be done, but getting to that point takes work. First becoming aware of what's actually happening - then becoming aware of when you tend to default to that pattern - then trying to accept you don't have to be attached to that pattern - then trying to see what it feels like to do something different - etc.

Part of self growth is making yourself vulnerable and taking those chances. It doesn't mean you'll never get hurt, or disappointed, or that you'll always feel 100% sure of yourself - it means accepting those feelings as they come and realizing that you have the capacity to move past those experiences when they happen. No one is ever completely actualized all the time. Part of self growth is accepting these feelings and experiences are normal and there's nothing wrong with you for feeling them. 

Interesting thread.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

I wasn't able to peruse all the responses before - a few more thoughts.



madhatter said:


> Alcoholism is a whole different beast from Enneagram, but I'll play along. You don't just tell an alcoholic to "get over it and stop drinking". That will never work, just as it wouldn't work telling me about things in past, "It's not that big a deal. Get over it". I'm more likely to punch that person in the face than be willing to change. That's not what I was referring to when speaking of change and choice. It *is* a choice to drink, but by the time someone is an alcoholic, it seems like they don't have a choice but to drink. They want it and they need it. In a way, you're right in that we're all alcoholics in whatever area our types have the most problems...our vices. We have convinced ourselves that we don't have a choice in the matter. To continue to use the analogy of alcoholism, a recovering alcoholic always runs the risk of relapse, and the lifestyle calls for constant vigilance, that choice reaffirmed every day that they're not going to drink again. To do this, they must be aware that they have a drinking problem, and once aware, they must be willing to seek help. Similarly, each type runs the risk of slipping down the levels of health back into the same cycles. It requires making choices every day to each new situation that life throws at us. But first, it is important to be aware that a problem even exists. It is possible for an alcohol to stop drinking, so it is possible for us to break our unhealthy cycles. But it's a lot of hard work.


I think this is a really good analogy. With the enneagram types, we believe that our type is "the way we are" because it's our default coping mechanism. Often times I explain coping as an addiction - think of something you do that you don't want to do - whether it's self harm, using drugs, over-eating - whatever your personal vice is. Think of times when you've wanted to stop doing that thing. Usually there's a dialogue internally debating whether or not to give in. An anxiety starts to arise and suddenly all you can think about is that thing and how much you don't want to do it, but how much you want to give in. Often, we give in and then proceed to feel terrible about ourselves. 

So why do we give in? In this situation, we often don't realize we have a choice. We're so used to this pattern, it feels totally natural. When that internal debate begins, after a while it can start to feel as though you're going to have an anxiety attack, explode, or even die. The challenge with changing this pattern lies in accepting that feeling of anxiety and panic. Our instinct is to fight against those feelings to try and change them. But what will happen if you accept that feeling? You logically know you aren't going to explode or die. You might feel anxious and uncomfortable, but it's not life threatening - but it almost feels that way. 

So step one is noticing what it feels like when you experience different emotions - is there are a physical sensation? Do you have specific thoughts? Opinions? Feelings about that emotion? 

When I was trying to get a handle on my anxiety, I had to learn how to do the very uncomfortable practice of analyzing my own anxiety. When it starts, I noticed my heart rate would increase and my movements would become very rapid and agitated. I started to feel angry and annoyed. After a while my thoughts started trying to dissect the anxiety - why am I feeling this way? Why won't this go away? How do I get away from it?

Until I stopped to analyze this process I wasn't really aware of it. It took ongoing practice, but after a while when anxiety started I would first notice my rapid movements and realize my whole body was tense. So I would relax my body. After a while I would tense up a bit again and start thinking of how much I disliked the anxious feeling in my body. Then I would begin the questions of how to stop the feeling. Once I noticed I was getting lost in my thoughts on how to stop it, I would acknowledge those thoughts, and then focus on the anxious sensation itself. It didn't always make the physical sensation stop, but it would help with the panicky thoughts. The more I've practiced with my anxiety, the less of an impact it made and the quicker I could respond to it. 



snowbell said:


> I apologise for misunderstanding you - may you please explain again so I can better understand and respond to you? That said I'd like to point out that that's what some of the advice comes down to. For example:
> 
> I would like to know what that means to you. Reason I ask is because it's for the 5, and also because it's doing exactly what I described earlier, namely saying something without showing how. What's meant by "present" and what's meant by "engaged"? They ignore defining the term and further that actually being "present" requires tremendous effort and awareness, such that most don't even bother to do it. It's the same thing with "engaged", they don't say what it is, or how, how to measure success when engaged, or not, and what the benefits are. You're left to deduce all of this on your own. Of course that's an example that really isn't helpful to the author, but it seems to me that most of the help tips do this in one way or another.


For a 5, to be present means to slow down or turn off the internal monologue that tends to take us out of our the moment in front of is. To be present and engaged really means to be mindful - to be paying attention in a particular way on purpose, non-judgmentally, to the present moment.

Most of us never realize we're not actually mindful of the present moment in front of us and that's again, where the first step of awareness comes in. Before you can change or grow, you have to have an understanding of what it is you're trying to change. 

A simple exercise is to try and eat something - notice if you're distracted while you eat. Notice if you have thoughts about what you're eating. Then try and experience every part of eating. Some people do this exercise with a raisin - first looking at it, then touching it, then placing it in your mouth and just letting it sit there. Ask yourself how it really tastes - it doesn't have to be good or bad, it just is. Once you're done, ask yourself if it felt different than the usual eating you do.

You can also try using a mundane ever day task, like washing your hair, or brushing your teeth. Try and really stay totally present in those moments and see how difficult it really is - how often our thoughts run away without us even realizing it. Don't get angry or annoyed when you notice how often your thinking takes you away from the moment, just try to be aware of it non-judgmentally.



> Like, take for example Alcoholics Anonymous - if you go there, you become aware of the fact that you have a problem with alcohol, which you may have denied, and what happens? You are entered into a support group, and their 12 step program (or however many steps there are) which teaches you how to break the habit, and you can have others who've succeeded perhaps, to speak to you and share their story, as well as helpful pamphlets etc. I'd not be surprised if you had a sponsor who you spoke to regularly to be held accountable to.


Actually, most Addictions Foundations no longer work from a 12-step model, but rather a harm reduction model. Looking at your behaviour, understanding why you've used that behaviour to cope, understanding what circumstances brought you to this place in your life, learning self-compassion, non-judgment, and patience for yourself. Understanding that relapse and back-sliding is a part of growth and change and it's okay to be compassionate with yourself when it happens. But again, what you do with what you learn is up to you.



> Further to that, I re-ask the question that I've had and asked in here. *How* does the hypothetical 8 from before "let go" of the anger that's been caused after their fiancée cheated on them with their best friend? For something so difficult to overcome, and so easy to practice, it seems to me that it would make more sense to actually have some examples that *show how* someone can actually overcome their vice.


Again, I think some people see growth or actualization as being above some of these emotions. I don't think that's usually what is meant. Again, there is no simple formula. With a lot of this stuff, it involves doing some research and learning, getting some lightbulb moments, backsliding, doing more research and practice, getting some new lightbulb moments, backsliding again, and so on. It's not an A to B equation - it's a constant, continuing process.

I know for my 6w7 partner, there has also been a lot of letting go of the idea that an outcome to a situation will be "good" or "bad", or that he won't make the "wrong" choice. Learning that when an unfavourable outcome happens, things are still okay and he doesn't need to panic or get angry with himself. He's only really realized in the last few months how much projection influences his interactions.


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## Little Cloud (Jan 12, 2013)

snowbell said:


> I ask a simple question.
> 
> If the Enneagram is a system for self-growth, why is it that the profiles and theory focuses more on self-awareness, and more often than not ignore aspects of actually getting to self-growth, and breaking past the patterns that are intrinsic in one's nature?
> 
> ...


Online there is little about self-grown but I bought 3 Enneagramm's books and I can assure you that there a lot of information there! 
I have, personally, found more help in Enneagramm theory than in MTBI or Socionics theories! =)


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> For a 5, to be present means to slow down or turn off the internal monologue that tends to take us out of our the moment in front of is. To be present and engaged really means to be mindful - to be paying attention in a particular way on purpose, non-judgmentally, to the present moment.
> 
> Most of us never realize we're not actually mindful of the present moment in front of us and that's again, where the first step of awareness comes in. Before you can change or grow, you have to have an understanding of what it is you're trying to change.
> 
> ...


I know this is unrelated to the big scheme of things, but I can't say I relate to this at all actually. I don't feel that detachment is about an inability to pay attention to what's going on around me. I can be very attentive. Sure enough, I might not always notice when I'm locking my front door, but I also have the peculiar ability to observe more things than any of my friends. In conversation when I'm out walking with someone else, it's likely I'll say "oh, look a bird" and no one else saw. I also see things very clearly in others and I'm able to make quick connections about the state of the matters.

So to me, the way to deal with detachment is to be action-oriented. I'm very likely to be too stuck observing from my ivory tower. Actually, one of the things that scares me with my profession is participant observation, that I need to go out there and do things no matter how awkward I think it is. That I'll do it the way the native does it instead of just observing on the side and drawing silent conclusions that was definitely the norm in anthropology of old. Those things, it genuinely scares me. 

Then there's the issue that I always make plans in my head but I keep coming up with excuses to avoid doing things so I can spend more time in my head and on ideas than the world around me. But most of all, I think the way to deal with detachment is being action-oriented, to involve yourself, to participate. Instead of cancelling that party invitation just accept and go there. No "ifs" or "buts" like "I don't feel like I have the energy to see them today so maybe some other time" or "but I didn't go grocery shopping yet and then I need to shower and I don't feel I have time to do it and then make dinner and still be in time" and so on. So easy to pull away from these things.


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## Ryosuke93 (Feb 29, 2012)

Are there times though when we should work with our enneagram rather than flee or break free from it? I think there are times when it is appropriate for me to be a 4, to act like a 4, to think like a 4, to even cry like a 4. Especially if it comes to career choice, I want it to reflect a little bit of the qualities of a 4. In that it allows some freedom of expression, some creativity. I'm currently heading down a career path that provides neither of these and I'm feeling so miserable. On one hand, I am learning a lot of things, becoming more disciplined, meeting and learning from people (from certain types) who I don't always see eye to eye with. But at the same time, I'm feeling tired, alone and (of course being a 4) feeling misunderstood cause I don't feel like I _fit in_ and nobody really _gets_ it.

The enneagram is teaching me that as a four, I OFTEN feel this way and should recognize this pattern and resist it. But for the _first time_ since learning about enneagram and accepting its teachings, I think I have to listen to my feelings. The enneagram teaches 4s that feelings are not everything and that we pay tooooo much attention to our feelings, so stop doing it!

But sometimes I wonder if our attention to wanting to grow, to move to a 1, causes us to swing the opposite and neglect our feelings, look down on our feelings. 

I will use an analogy:
Maybe it can turn out to be a situation like "the boy who cried wolf"...maybe all those other times my feelings were crying out "wolf! wolf! I see a wolf!" and like the villagers, I would come running to help, to listen to my feelings (the little boy) and find that there was no wolf. But then there comes a time where there actually IS a wolf, my feelings cry out for help, but this time I don't come to save it.

I guess this is where I agree with the OP, we need more guidance to work with our type and not just condemn it all the time and strive for a total change. For example, as a four, WHEN should I listen to my feelings if I am told to not "pay so much attention to it"???

Well, I guess I did read a book a while ago on that and it told me that only when feelings are backed by sound thought and reason, should we listen to it. So yeah, it looks like we still got to look to other sources for more details, more guidance, because it is true, like the OP says, what we have online isn't always complete.

I mean, no matter what, no matter how much I grow, even if I reach my direction of integration as a 1...I will never BE a 1. I will be a 4 for life. For better or worse. I'm going to be a four. I want to choose the "for better" part of being a 4. 

It is possible to transcend your type though, is what I read. But I think if such a thing happens, it can only be for a moment, one shining moment, until you touch back down to your type again. So might as well try to work with your type, right?


And then being self-aware, there even might be such a thing as being too self-aware or maybe the word is "self-conscious?" I read about one lady who ended up having a phobia of swallowing after having a traumatic experience of choking on her food. She couldn't eat properly anymore. She kept thinking, over thinking of the process of swallowing. Trying to imagine what movements she needed to create with her tongue to get her food in. But this further paralyzed her. Cuz swallowing is a natural process. Once she was urged to try to not think about the act of swallowing, but just "do" just "trust" that her body will do what it should, she was able to eat again without problems.

I worry sometimes with psychology theories that if they keep dwelling down and trying to deconstruct and make us self-aware of things that are hidden in our subconscious, then have us solely concentrate on those subconscious things, we might end up paralyzed, like the lady who couldn't swallow. Instead, like the OP says, we should be given practical steps of growth. Not just be aware all the time and end of the story... but we actually must move forward, move with action..."do"...trust that our body, our mind, our subconscious will do what it has to do, as we do what we have to do.

As an example, as I four, I guess my biggest fear is of being insignificant. I've never really payed attention to that fear, but I know it is true. Yet if all I keep doing is tell myself "I am not insignificant!" and expect change by only doing that...well, I don't know how much that will help, cuz I don't even tell myself that I am insignificant in the first place...that fear is subconscious. I am not really aware of it, so why spend so much time addressing it, talking back to it? What that fear brought about are_ habits _and it is the habits (created from repetitive thoughts) that we have power to change, though it will be a slow process. That is what a good self-improvement book will help us do. Help us address these thoughts which have become habits.

So for people interested in self-improvement, let us find and do some of those practical steps needed, which in turn can address our subconscious. Work on our subconscious by not being too self-conscious? By actively doing things that will be moving us towards growth. By actively thinking things that will move us towards growth. And in this case, finding other sources, compiling them (since enneagram online sources are too incomplete) and using these tools to move us to grow.


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## sleepyhead (Nov 14, 2011)

LeaT said:


> I know this is unrelated to the big scheme of things, but I can't say I relate to this at all actually. I don't feel that detachment is about an inability to pay attention to what's going on around me. I can be very attentive. Sure enough, I might not always notice when I'm locking my front door, but I also have the peculiar ability to observe more things than any of my friends. In conversation when I'm out walking with someone else, it's likely I'll say "oh, look a bird" and no one else saw. I also see things very clearly in others and I'm able to make quick connections about the state of the matters.


Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean an inability to pay attention with regards to observation of what's happening around us, but rather a tendency to separate ourselves from what's going on around us - the outside observer, not really related to what's going on in front of us. I know this makes me the most observant person I know, but my tendency to observe is what's taking me out of the present moment in front of me. I've mentioned before that the way I disconnect from the present moment is to narrate everything around me to myself - "I walked across the street briskly. I noticed that my back is still sore. I watched as a woman walked past me." Like I'm literally telling a story to myself - except it makes me feel like I'm not a part of the story.

Paying attention to the present moment means _not_ observing it - turning off the automatic internal thought process and just participating. Even though 5's are keen observers and notice a lot that other people miss, just observing it all and monologue-ing about what we're seeing is not actually participating it. Noticing that when the internal dialogue/monologue/narration starts again, that you don't have to get hooked into it and you can choose to redirect your attention to what's happening directly in front of you.

The reason paying attention to the present moment is different is because you just experience things, instead of thinking and analyzing them. The present moment only lasts for one second so to be consistently present for it, and to not be pulled away into your thoughts and judgements about what's happening, is very difficult.

Try and see how long you can go without a thought coming into your mind. Try closing your eyes and just listening - even if there's no noise, just listening constantly to any sound that enters your awareness. How quickly is your mind trying to drift away and form thoughts and judgements about what you're hearing? Try noticing your breath, but literally noticing each in breath - and then each out breath, as if there is no breath before or breath after. How quickly are you pulled away from noticing your breath at all? 

We don't realize how easily our thoughts pull us out of what's happening in front of us because it's so seemingly natural to us.



> So to me, the way to deal with detachment is to be action-oriented. I'm very likely to be too stuck observing from my ivory tower. Actually, one of the things that scares me with my profession is participant observation, that I need to go out there and do things no matter how awkward I think it is. That I'll do it the way the native does it instead of just observing on the side and drawing silent conclusions that was definitely the norm in anthropology of old. Those things, it genuinely scares me.
> 
> Then there's the issue that I always make plans in my head but I keep coming up with excuses to avoid doing things so I can spend more time in my head and on ideas than the world around me. But most of all, I think the way to deal with detachment is being action-oriented, to involve yourself, to participate. Instead of cancelling that party invitation just accept and go there. No "ifs" or "buts" like "I don't feel like I have the energy to see them today so maybe some other time" or "but I didn't go grocery shopping yet and then I need to shower and I don't feel I have time to do it and then make dinner and still be in time" and so on. So easy to pull away from these things.


That's what I was trying to say in my above post - you have to get out of the observer default and participate.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

sleepyhead said:


> Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean an inability to pay attention with regards to observation of what's happening around us, but rather a tendency to separate ourselves from what's going on around us - the outside observer, not really related to what's going on in front of us. I know this makes me the most observant person I know, but my tendency to observe is what's taking me out of the present moment in front of me. I've mentioned before that the way I disconnect from the present moment is to narrate everything around me to myself - "I walked across the street briskly. I noticed that my back is still sore. I watched as a woman walked past me." Like I'm literally telling a story to myself - except it makes me feel like I'm not a part of the story.
> 
> Paying attention to the present moment means _not_ observing it - turning off the automatic internal thought process and just participating. Even though 5's are keen observers and notice a lot that other people miss, just observing it all and monologue-ing about what we're seeing is not actually participating it. Noticing that when the internal dialogue/monologue/narration starts again, that you don't have to get hooked into it and you can choose to redirect your attention to what's happening directly in front of you.
> 
> ...


Hm, I can't say I really suffer the issue of inner monologue like the way you describe it. It part sounds like inferior Se but aside that, I don't think my observation is blocked by monologue. Analysis doesn't have to occur immediately, especially if it's a known phenomenon like seeing my cat lick himself. 

Especially when I'm observing, I find that my mind is extremely quiet because I'm so focused on what's in front of me instead of what's going on inside of me. Understanding occurs intuitively as I piece information together and Ne helps me to predict the outcome of my observations. It can be very thoughtless in such a sense. So if I go with your example and focus on the direct sensory stimuli as is (it sounds like Se, I can't do this for long part because it's very draining), I don't really think of anything. The noise of the fan is just the noise of the fan. The sound of the keyboard is just the sound of the keyboard. My cat is just my cat licking his belly. It's very non-judgemental. Things just are as is.


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