# What is the point of Ti in alpha quadra?



## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Im not sure I get it. I noticed that what interests me, in my use of logic is how stuff works, not why it works. For instance, if I but a camera, I enjoy knwoing which button does what so I can manipulate that knowledge to create the photos I want for the artistic effect I want, but I am not interested in the scientific theories explaining the printing of a photograph. I noticed alphas spend alot of time trying to understand why stuff works, and it seems like they are wasting their time and energy. I can respect beta quadra's use of systems to delineate heirarchy, and thus create clear limits as to who weilds power. Sure, this power in beta comes from emotional influence and not use of knowledge, which would seem more like gamma, but at least it is used to an end even if I find it slightly perverse( Beta hierachy is like some kind of game). Real world power seems like a justifiable end, though its a bit dark and depressing too, if there is no sense of maturity and wisdom to go along with that power. Alphas, though want to understand why stuff works, mostly in the universe, and while Im interested in philosophy, science, spirituality etc I think alphas spend too much time mentally masturbating. I think there is a use of Ti when it comes to understanding people(thats why we're on this forum, right?) so as to better smooth out relations between oneself and others, however this seems like a limited application. 

I dont mean to offend anyone by writing this, but Im not sure there is a use to Ti in alpha quadra. I dont see what its use is. Reactions? Thoughts? Agree? No? etc

Note; I understand people cannot change type and I am not calling anyone useless or doomed by nature. That would be pointless. Im just pointing out that aplhas seem to me to seek entertainement in logic which I dont get. Not sure what the point of this thread is, just a rant I guess.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Well, I think that all Alphas tend towards the philosophy that one excels in all that one enjoys and/or has an interest. Even if it may take longer to reach a goal, that's the entire point-- The enjoyment of the journey leads one to mastery through an inadvertent thoroughness, simply because of the enjoyment of it.

Of course, it depends on the subject. I think that if it were something I wasn't interested in, I wouldn't spend as much time on it. But, if I _did _enjoy and/or possess an interest, I'd be more likely to spend more time. Wasting, or not wasting time isn't really in the forefront of _my _mind, at least. It's simply not a priority the way it might be for Delta or Gamma.

We're just like: Take as much time as you need. Relax. Enjoy. Learning and loving it is the meaning of life.


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## ThatOneWeirdGuy (Nov 22, 2012)

The enjoyment of figuring out "why" and knowing it is an end in and of itself. It's a waste of time to you because that's not an end for you. 

That being said, that's not _all _we do. I used to know a normalizing LII who is an Aerospace Engineering major. He's always been practically minded, but his thinking is rigidly Ti, and he truly enjoys solving problems for its own sake... And because rockets are fucking cool and multi-planetary civilization is kinda needed at some point.


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## Draki (Apr 4, 2014)

Finding out the why is much more interesting to me than its application. 
I wonder why...


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm supposedly an alpha but I couldn't care less about the scientific theories explaining the printing of a photograph. And I'm usually not interested in figuring out how or why things work, so perhaps that's not really what Ti is about? I think a Ti preference just means one is inclined to perceive logic as subjective.


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## Hiemal (Jan 5, 2014)

Alphas are the propagators of systems and ideas in society (mainly NT Alphas). Alpha Ti is used as a way to organize systems so that they can be made to be functional. LII especially is considered the architect of many schools of thought, laying the logical foundations for a system that is probably unorganized and chaotic. The Ij perspective here is the acknowledgement of external chaos (through Ne Creative), and the desire to bring stability and order to this chaos (Ti Lead).

Thus, we find this:

ILE (Lead Ne+, Creative Ti-) seeks out chaos and unpredictability in the environment to understand it, and broaden the scope of foundations already in place. They will tend to _cause_ chaos in the process by attempting to discover more phenomena that needs to be logically understood and organized before any important use can come from it (Ti > Te directive). 

LII (Lead Ti-, Creative Ne+) seeks order and stability in regions where there is complete and utter chaos. These types look at the disorganized data that lay in front of them, and think "how can I make this uniform in meaning?" They will tend to follow the ILE's wake of informational chaos, cleaning it up to make it logically neat and usable for other types. We can see this mechanism happening in Socionics, where ILEs are typically the ones coming up with more and more theories about the system while LIIs slowly keep refining and elucidating the older theories, while disproving some of the more outlandish theories in the process. 

Thus, Alpha Ti- blocked with Ne+ brings the Alpha NTs the desire to move toward the intellectual frontier, where information is disorganized and needing explanation and systematization. Wherever there are new advancements in a field, you will typically see these types (especially ILE) front-lining exploration into the field and refining these new advancements, to the point where other types can use those systems pragmatically and apply them somehow thus starting the path of information (Alpha Architecture -> Beta Enforcement -> Gamma Reformation/Orchestration -> Delta Administration) .


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses. 

I have a few comments. 
@Word Dispenser. Believe it or not, I've actually spent much time on intellectual subjects as well. I even had my ILE cousin question my interest in socionics because I wasnt making money off it(cant say she was wrong). I think Alpha NTs are quiet practical actually just more interested in the "planning" aspect of studying a problem. This planning is useful. No practice without solid theory, I think. I read that Alpha NTs want to increase their understanding, study the whys and wherefores of how everything works. Gamma NTs are more concerned with appyling their knowledge, so they mostly concern themselves with known facts. When I was a kid, I was a walking encyclopedia of facts. I still get that comment today sometimes, lol. I think that @ThatOneWeirdGuy is right, as well, then; Im concerned withh appyling knowledge so I mostly concern myself with established facts, but it also takes Alpha NTs to discover those facts to begin with.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> I'm supposedly an alpha but I couldn't care less about the scientific theories explaining the printing of a photograph. And I'm usually not interested in figuring out how or why things work, so perhaps that's not really what Ti is about? I think a Ti preference just means one is inclined to perceive logic as subjective.


That isnt my current understanding. My brother is LII and he wants to know the whys and understand how stuff works, he even gets aggressive in questioning people when they cant answer. My uncle is LSI, and the desire to understand the mechanics of the universe seems to be the thing they have in common; my uncle can explain the reasons as to why some of the months in our calendar are longer than others, for instance.

And Im not sure what is meant by "logic as subjective". Im not sure what it means, concertely speaking for logic to be subjective or objective.


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## The Exception (Oct 26, 2010)

Draki said:


> Finding out the why is much more interesting to me than its application.
> I wonder why...


:laughing:



Silveresque said:


> I'm supposedly an alpha but I couldn't care less about the scientific theories explaining the printing of a photograph. And I'm usually not interested in figuring out how or why things work, so perhaps that's not really what Ti is about? I think a Ti preference just means one is inclined to perceive logic as subjective.


I normally don't care about scientific theories behind how things work either with a few rare exceptions. As long as my car gets from point A to point B, I don't care why it works, just that it does. Same with the computer. If something isn't working right, I'll want to know what to do to fix it and what may be causing the problem so I can maybe avoid it in the future but I don't care how computers work on a scientific level. Even when I enjoy nature outside, I'm thinking about the beauty of nature, I generally don't care or think about the science behind the beautiful landscape. 

I'm not even entirely sure what 'subjective' logic means. Perhaps the tendency to develop one own's system of logically organizing stuff that makes sense to that individual? Because I do that stuff all of the time. I like to see how things interrelate, how they are classified. What makes A a member of class X but not class Y? I suppose that would fall under Ti? 

I'm not even sure I am an alpha. Much of my thinking does fall under practical logic- if it works, it's good; I want something useful to come from my efforts.

I seem to value both Ti and Te at different times, in different circumstances. Socionics will tell you that's impossible.



Hiemal said:


> Alphas are the propagators of systems and ideas in society (mainly NT Alphas). Alpha Ti is used as a way to organize systems so that they can be made to be functional. LII especially is considered the architect of many schools of thought, laying the logical foundations for a system that is probably unorganized and chaotic. The Ij perspective here is the acknowledgement of external chaos (through Ne Creative), and the desire to bring stability and order to this chaos (Ti Lead).
> 
> Thus, we find this:
> 
> ...


I seem to take both the ILE and LII approaches at different times. Actually come to think of it, the ILE approach is probably more natural for me. 

It's like trying to figure out the socionics typing system, more and more information gets discovered that I need to make sense of before trying to figure out my type. Also, why I remain perpetually unsure. Or I think I know, and then there's something new worth considering.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> It's like trying to figure out the socionics typing system, more and more information gets discovered that I need to make sense of before trying to figure out my type. Also, why I remain perpetually unsure. Or I think I know, and then there's something new worth considering.


And its not just discovering stuff about the system, theres also stuff about yourself you will discover which you didnt know about as time goes by.


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## Draki (Apr 4, 2014)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> I normally don't care about scientific theories behind how things work either with a few rare exceptions. As long as my car gets from point A to point B, I don't care why it works, just that it does. Same with the computer. If something isn't working right, I'll want to know what to do to fix it and what may be causing the problem so I can maybe avoid it in the future but I don't care how computers work on a scientific level. Even when I enjoy nature outside, I'm thinking about the beauty of nature, I generally don't care or think about the science behind the beautiful landscape.


I'm also like this but when you start to think about it I'm nevertheless interested and want to find out.. but perhaps I'll also forget about it quickly. Often many explanation are also too complicated for me. If I ask why is mc²=e and look at the explanations it's just too much for my little brain. 



> I'm not even entirely sure what 'subjective' logic means. Perhaps the tendency to develop one own's system of logically organizing stuff that makes sense to that individual? Because I do that stuff all of the time. I like to see how things interrelate, how they are classified. What makes A a member of class X but not class Y? I suppose that would fall under Ti?


Ti or subjective logic is your personal logic. What makes sense to you. If an Te user comes with a few facts it could be that you dont believe them because you trust your own logic / experience / observations more. 
I also saw this classification stuff in the 80Q Ti block, so I guess it's Ti but I don't do it that often or I don't notice it.



> I'm not even sure I am an alpha. Much of my thinking does fall under practical logic- if it works, it's good; I want something useful to come from my efforts.
> 
> I seem to value both Ti and Te at different times, in different circumstances. Socionics will tell you that's impossible.


Every LII has strong (3D) Te. It's just the ignored function. So you don't value it that much. Or you're ILE then it would be an important part of your life (4D) 




> I seem to take both the ILE and LII approaches at different times. Actually come to think of it, the ILE approach is probably more natural for me.
> 
> It's like trying to figure out the socionics typing system, more and more information gets discovered that I need to make sense of before trying to figure out my type. Also, why I remain perpetually unsure. Or I think I know, and then there's something new worth considering.


Yes, Ti+Ne works in a way that you always feel unsure or rethink your decisions.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Typhon said:


> That isnt my current understanding. My brother is LII and he wants to know the whys and understand how stuff works, he even gets aggressive in questioning people when they cant answer. My uncle is LSI, and the desire to understand the mechanics of the universe seems to be the thing they have in common; my uncle can explain the reasons as to why some of the months in our calendar are longer than others, for instance.


Well, let me compare that reasoning to something similar. Let's say I know an SLE who likes sports. And I know an SEE who likes sports as well. Could I say, then, that Se is about liking sports?

Functions are cognitive preferences that affect how we perceive and understand the world. They don't necessarily influence interests or behaviors. 



> And Im not sure what is meant by "logic as subjective". Im not sure what it means, concertely speaking for logic to be subjective or objective.


It means that concepts can be continually remapped because systems, categories, and labels are just constructs we apply for mental organization. 

Any given word may cover different conceptual territory depending on who is speaking. For example, my "blue" could be your "green". And yet if we were to define blue and come up with an example of it, it probably wouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement. The definition is not the map. What I mean is that at some point, blue becomes green, and different people assign this shift to different points. Who's to say whose map is more right? Thus Ti (paired with Ne) sees that nothing is necessarily true or false, and when we say that something is true, it's only ever true _in a sense_. I could say that something is blue, but I might also be able to say it's green, depending on which conceptual map I'm using.

Similarly, I could say that "hate" is the opposite of "love", but I could also consider "indifference" to be the opposite. Thus when someone mentions the opposite of love, I will perceive it as somewhat ambiguous because I would have to know what the other person is thinking to know the intended meaning.

From what I've seen, Te types tend to take this sort of thing at face value. To them, language and communication should be pretty straightforward. And if the meaning is not properly understood, then either the speaker didn't use the right words or the listener wasn't paying attention or wasn't thinking clearly. I even heard once from an ILI that there's no such thing as misunderstandings unless someone did something wrong like I mentioned above, which totally baffled me.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Fractals and Pterodactyls said:


> I'm not even entirely sure what 'subjective' logic means. Perhaps the tendency to develop one own's system of logically organizing stuff that makes sense to that individual? Because I do that stuff all of the time. I like to see how things interrelate, how they are classified. What makes A a member of class X but not class Y? I suppose that would fall under Ti?


Hm, I rarely even do that. I think I generally only think about that sort of thing when I get an insight about types or functions. I feel like my Ti is more of a perspective than an active function, and the same seems to be true of all my functions. I don't really "use" functions, I just occasionally express perspectives that I have when relevant. 



> I'm not even sure I am an alpha. Much of my thinking does fall under practical logic- if it works, it's good; I want something useful to come from my efforts.
> 
> I seem to value both Ti and Te at different times, in different circumstances. Socionics will tell you that's impossible.


Same here. I'm all about the view that everything's just a matter of perspective and understanding is subjective by nature, yet for some things I'll seem to take the opposite view, thinking there's one right way to understand it. 

I think this actually doesn't contradict socionics though. I remember reading once that people will use even non-valued functions if the situation calls for their use, but they will tend to use their base function even when it's not necessarily called for. I seem to prefer a more Te perspective for dealing with type and functions, as well as for diagnoses because I think there needs to be consistency and consensus in how they are understood, because they are systems that someone else made and were intended to be understood in a certain way. So I won't go off and invent my own subjective version of socionics. I develop ideas or theories about them, but ultimately I'm looking for the most objectively accurate understanding.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> Well, let me compare that reasoning to something similar. Let's say I know an SLE who likes sports. And I know an SEE who likes sports as well. Could I say, then, that Se is about liking sports?
> 
> Functions are cognitive preferences that affect how we perceive and understand the world. They don't necessarily influence interests or behaviors.


I agree that functions dont directly determine interests, but they can still influence them indirectly. Like in the example you give, we cant say Se is about liking sports, but if enough Se dominants are into sports compared to other types, we can say Se dominants enjoy movement and action. Now, how that desire for movement and action manifests itself in specific individuals might vary, some Se doms might like sports while might only like travelling. Others may like going to theme parks. 





> It means that concepts can be continually remapped because systems, categories, and labels are just constructs we apply for mental organization.
> 
> Any given word may cover different conceptual territory depending on who is speaking. For example, my "blue" could be your "green". And yet if we were to define blue and come up with an example of it, it probably wouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement. The definition is not the map. What I mean is that at some point, blue becomes green, and different people assign this shift to different points. Who's to say whose map is more right? Thus Ti (paired with Ne) sees that nothing is necessarily true or false, and when we say that something is true, it's only ever true _in a sense_. I could say that something is blue, but I might also be able to say it's green, depending on which conceptual map I'm using.
> 
> ...


I can concede to that, but Id like to add that, in light of what I said above, whether you value Te or Ti will influence your centers of interest somewhat. I can see a Te and Ti type being interested in the same subject, but their approach would be different. 

Im afraid this topic is way to vast to explain what I meant when I was talking about Ti seeking to understand the "whys" of things whereas Te seeks the "how" or "how-to". I was talking about how the functions manifest, much like I spoke of how Se can manifest in a desire to like movement and action, but not necessarily sports. So you may not be interested in the "whys" behind a photograph, but perhaps you are inetersted in understanding the "whys" of some things wirthout even realizing you are.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

Typhon said:


> Thanks for all the responses.
> 
> I have a few comments.
> @_Word Dispenser_. Believe it or not, I've actually spent much time on intellectual subjects as well. I even had my ILE cousin question my interest in socionics because I wasnt making money off it(cant say she was wrong). I think Alpha NTs are quiet practical actually just more interested in the "planning" aspect of studying a problem. This planning is useful. No practice without solid theory, I think. I read that Alpha NTs want to increase their understanding, study the whys and wherefores of how everything works. Gamma NTs are more concerned with appyling their knowledge, so they mostly concern themselves with known facts. When I was a kid, I was a walking encyclopedia of facts. I still get that comment today sometimes, lol. I think that @_ThatOneWeirdGuy_ is right, as well, then; Im concerned withh appyling knowledge so I mostly concern myself with established facts, but it also takes Alpha NTs to discover those facts to begin with.


Haha, I'm normally called irrelevant because I kind of.. _Avoid _facts like the plague. To me, they are tedious, and even annoying, because they don't interest me. I like to ponder, to query, to explore what may seem meaningless, unrealistic, and purely theoretical to you. What-if, could-be, what-would-you-do-ifs... There's normally no practical use for what I like to discuss at all. Whatsoever. It's just an enjoyable thought-exercises. Like point-and-click adventure games, puzzles, chess.

I know that ILEs can definitely be practical, but I'm more on the Ti side of ILE, I suppose. I thought I was LII for awhile, but I think I'm just a weird ILE-Ti. I don't really plan, either, which I chalk up to Ne. Ne is fairly present-oriented towards possibilities. Ti and Si are more the future-oriented aspects of the cognition.

But, most people I tend to work with put facts up on a pedestal, and I'm called rather illogical and pointless. So, there ya go. Depends on your perspective. :kitteh:


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## Pancreatic Pandora (Aug 16, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> It means that concepts can be continually remapped because systems, categories, and labels are just constructs we apply for mental organization.
> 
> Any given word may cover different conceptual territory depending on who is speaking. For example, my "blue" could be your "green". And yet if we were to define blue and come up with an example of it, it probably wouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement. The definition is not the map. What I mean is that at some point, blue becomes green, and different people assign this shift to different points. Who's to say whose map is more right? Thus Ti (paired with Ne) sees that nothing is necessarily true or false, and when we say that something is true, it's only ever true _in a sense_. I could say that something is blue, but I might also be able to say it's green, depending on which conceptual map I'm using.
> 
> ...


Hmm, no, I think it's actually a combination of intelligence/knowledge and a good awareness of Ti (or maybe just thinking in general?). I couldn't relate to your description of Te types =/.

In my case, on one hand, I'm aware of the general meaning of words. The usual meaning, the consensus. And on the other hand, I notice when people give them a particular meaning, when the way they've defined a word is not the same as the general way they are used. It happens very frequently that, during a conversation, I sense the way a person is using certain words is different to mine, which usually corresponds to commonly accepted definitions, that they are working with a different definition for that same term. It's happened a few times before that I've observed people discussing and not realizing that they are not understanding each other because they have different definitions in their heads. That "semantic dissonance" doesn't necessarily appear very clearly to me, in the sense that I couldn't point out exactly where the conceptual differences exist. Instead, it's more like a progressive background noise that intensifies until it eventually becomes obvious where the differences lay.

Regarding this, especifically:


> Thus Ti (paired with Ne) sees that nothing is necessarily true or false, and when we say that something is true, it's only ever true in a sense. I could say that something is blue, but I might also be able to say it's green, depending on which conceptual map I'm using.


I don't think it's anything related to Ti-Ne, or at least not exclusively. Moreover, Ti is not the same as an awareness of subjective logic, the way you've explained it in your post, because otherwise there wouldn't be Ti-doms who claim their understanding of whatever to be better than others or that their system is better, and those certainly exist. Same thing with Fi and values/ethics. Both Ti and Fi can claim their conceptions of the world to be better than others as if they were objective because introversion in general does not mean one is aware of the distinction of subjective/objective. And the more pronounced their preference for introversion is, the more disconnected they are from external information, which means the more objective they believe their ideas are, because they become less aware of the contrast between the external and the internal. I think.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

Silveresque said:


> It means that concepts can be continually remapped because systems, categories, and labels are just constructs we apply for mental organization.
> 
> Any given word may cover different conceptual territory depending on who is speaking. For example, my "blue" could be your "green". And yet if we were to define blue and come up with an example of it, it probably wouldn't be too hard to come to an agreement. The definition is not the map. What I mean is that at some point, blue becomes green, and different people assign this shift to different points. Who's to say whose map is more right? Thus Ti (paired with Ne) sees that nothing is necessarily true or false, and when we say that something is true, it's only ever true _in a sense_. I could say that something is blue, but I might also be able to say it's green, depending on which conceptual map I'm using.


Ti logic isn't subjective in the colloquial sense like you're saying, it's objective just like Te is objective because that's what thinking is in general. Ti can and does very much determine what is true and what is false. So sure someone's "blue" can be someone else's "green" but the same information is be transmitted and it's done consistently so they're no conflict. Imagine if a totally objective observer was able to look through the eyes of both people and could see the discrepancy, yet the both users agreed on the same label, then the label is effective and there's no fallacy. Sure it looks different, but if you think of each human being as a sophisticated light detecting sensor that correctly identifies the color of sweater, how does this distinction make a difference in objective reality? If both sensors agree a sweater is called "green", there's no disagreement and no fallacy.



> Similarly, I could say that "hate" is the opposite of "love", but I could also consider "indifference" to be the opposite. Thus when someone mentions the opposite of love, I will perceive it as somewhat ambiguous because I would have to know what the other person is thinking to know the intended meaning.
> 
> From what I've seen, Te types tend to take this sort of thing at face value. To them, language and communication should be pretty straightforward. And if the meaning is not properly understood, then either the speaker didn't use the right words or the listener wasn't paying attention or wasn't thinking clearly. I even heard once from an ILI that there's no such thing as misunderstandings unless someone did something wrong like I mentioned above, which totally baffled me.


Hmmm I don't know about this. I know people who I believe are Te types that are only capable of understanding things a very specific way, it's like if you don't use the exact definition they use it's like they have zero idea what you're talking about. I know others I believe are Te types that aren't like that at all. Yet both do a lot of "Te things" like imposing impersonal laws and order on the their environment via schedules, processes, and other stuff meant to affect the environment and others. I'm totally incapable of organizing things and presenting things in a way meant to be understood by others, like writing an instruction manual. For me it would be way easier to bring someone to a white board and interactively have a discussion and draw pictures, or do an activity together where we can walk through it together. I'm so awful at Te things lol, I'm good at figuring out how things work or what the end goal of something should be, but the intermediate steps to get there are hazy so it's hard for me to make plans and conform to schedules.

So idk, I think what you're saying is true for some Te types, but for many it's not.


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## Cellar Door (Jun 3, 2012)

Typhon said:


> Im not sure I get it. I noticed that what interests me, in my use of logic is how stuff works, not why it works. For instance, if I but a camera, I enjoy knwoing which button does what so I can manipulate that knowledge to create the photos I want for the artistic effect I want, but I am not interested in the scientific theories explaining the printing of a photograph. I noticed alphas spend alot of time trying to understand why stuff works, and it seems like they are wasting their time and energy. I can respect beta quadra's use of systems to delineate heirarchy, and thus create clear limits as to who weilds power. Sure, this power in beta comes from emotional influence and not use of knowledge, which would seem more like gamma, but at least it is used to an end even if I find it slightly perverse( Beta hierachy is like some kind of game). Real world power seems like a justifiable end, though its a bit dark and depressing too, if there is no sense of maturity and wisdom to go along with that power. Alphas, though want to understand why stuff works, mostly in the universe, and while Im interested in philosophy, science, spirituality etc I think alphas spend too much time mentally masturbating. I think there is a use of Ti when it comes to understanding people(thats why we're on this forum, right?) so as to better smooth out relations between oneself and others, however this seems like a limited application.
> 
> I dont mean to offend anyone by writing this, but Im not sure there is a use to Ti in alpha quadra. I dont see what its use is. Reactions? Thoughts? Agree? No? etc
> 
> Note; I understand people cannot change type and I am not calling anyone useless or doomed by nature. That would be pointless. Im just pointing out that aplhas seem to me to seek entertainement in logic which I dont get. Not sure what the point of this thread is, just a rant I guess.


Haha, even though I'm an alpha I think we're on the same page. I don't really care so much how things work unless having that knowledge makes a functional difference in my life.


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