# Compelling Reasons to NEVER Take out a Student Loan!!!! (in the US)



## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

I mean, do what you want, but just take any advice from guidance counselors with a grain of salt. These are government employees that are paid to steer people towards a University education, and to manipulate young people, who don't know better into thinking that it's the ONLY way to have a successful life. Here are some compelling reasons to not go to a University unless you get a scholarship or can pay for it via a work study program or something similar. The only exceptions I'd say would be grad school students or med school students looking forward to a promising and very lucrative career: 

1. You will likely graduate with enough debt to purchase a luxury car. The average student loan leaves former students with a hefty $35,000. That's about as much as a new Audi costs. 

2. If you can't get at least a partial scholarship anywhere, you may want to consider whether or not you're actually college material. I know it sounds harsh, but because so many people are going to college, the value of a University degree has completely diminished. A college degree is worth now, about what a high school degree was worth years ago. 

3. People who are "not college material" going to college has required Universities to lower their standards so they can keep a good customer base. This has led to an increasingly incompetent workforce, which has made the US less competitive in the global job market. 

4. Millions of student loans go into default. Every time massive loans go into default, the Fed has to pump more money into the economy, which makes money worth less. Also, that's more everyone has to pay in taxes. 

5. You will likely get way more value from your education if you opt for community college or a trade school. The degrees cost a fraction of what a University degree costs, and many focus on practical job skill training rather than academic courses, so often the graduates end up better prepared for the job market than a University grad. Also, it's never been easier to add to your education University level courses as many Universities offer free access to video lectures, lecture notes, reading materials, and coursework from their classes.

So, there's five compelling reasons to not take out a student loan.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Just don't pay it back. ^_^


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## Grandmaster Yoda (Jan 18, 2014)

Never go to a for-profit school


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Sundae said:


> Just don't pay it back. ^_^


That goes back to reason #4. If everyone did that, money would become devalued at an alarming rate; it's already becoming devalued too fast. Inflation has been exponential since the 1970s.


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## PiT (May 6, 2017)

Colleges in the United States are in trouble. The idea that everyone should go to college is a utopian middle-class ideal, and does not square with the economic reality of the situation. If the problem is that a high school education is not enough to make it in life, then everyone getting a college education will only mean that that isn't enough either. 

I get the impression that people hang their hopes on an ideal that college confers the skills people need, but this is magical thinking. To your point 3, many people who are not college material go now, and they cannot pick up these skills but nevertheless are shuttled through to completion. The reality is that most businesses are more interested in the social signalling and sifting factors of a degree. The Bachelors will be far less useful for these is everyone has one, so they will just move on to demanding other things.

High school needs to be enough for people to have real lives and real careers, full stop. If it fails at that, then sending all of these same people to college, which must now do the work that high school was entrusted to do, is not a solution to anything.


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

I could name at least 5 reasons why this is poor reasoning, one being that the average college graduate makes about twice as much money over their lifetime compared to those who don't go to college. Even at $35,000 debt, that's a pretty amazing investment if you're just going by the statistics. Then of course you have the fact that a bachelor's degree expands your career possibilities enormously no matter what it's in; many companies by policy can't even promote you past a certain point unless you have X level of college education, even if it's not in something beneficial to the company. I still think that's bullshit, but that's how it is for some companies. 

As for people not getting scholarships and possibly not being college material: depending on the major (some majors are immensely harder than others), college isn't necessarily hard. If a person is of reasonable intelligence, wants a degree, can be responsible with money, and is willing to put in the level of work necessary for whatever degree they're going after (which for the most part really isn't that much unless it's a STEM degree) they probably should go to college. Most scholarships are based on what you did in high school, and I know plenty of people who were lazy in high school (thus couldn't get much in the way of scholarships) that did great in college. High school performance doesn't matter nearly as much in the long run as college performance does, and some people's actions are guided by that. 

You mentioned that the value of a college degree has diminished, and that's true. I'd argue that's actually a reason why someone _should_ get one even if they have to take out loans - because it's becoming an expectation to have one. It's less of a luxury and more of a requirement as time goes on, because work is becoming more and more intellectual and more and more specialized over the years. That's not to say that it is a requirement at this point, but it's more important than it used to be for securing a good job in the long run. 

As for your point about student loans defaulting: if someone is responsible with their money and doesn't spend like a dumbass straight out of college, for the most part they should be able to pay $35,000 off in a few years. That's not a reason not to take out a loan, it's a reason to be responsible with your money when you're out of college so that you can pay off your loans. People generally have full control over whether or not they default on their loans. Those that do are usually the ones that got excited about their new grown-up job and money and thus spent out of their means early (bought that new Audi too soon). After those loans are paid off, people can really start reaping the rewards of that improved paycheck.

That said, the US university system is still fucked up and seriously needs to work out the costs. I don't think it's right that college costs nearly as much as it does and I think the fact that it's so heavily capitalized is kind of sick. But I do think a college degree can be an extremely good investment if someone wants it. Of course if someone doesn't want a college degree, that's also fine; I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. That doesn't change the fact that a wisely chosen college degree is one of the best ways to improve your lifetime income and gain more freedom in your future job prospects though.


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Wild said:


> I could name at least 5 reasons why this is poor reasoning, one being that the average college graduate makes about twice as much money over their lifetime compared to those who don't go to college. Even at $35,000 debt, that's a pretty amazing investment if you're just going by the statistics. Then of course you have the fact that a bachelor's degree expands your career possibilities enormously no matter what it's in; many companies by policy can't even promote you past a certain point unless you have X level of college education, even if it's not in something beneficial to the company. I still think that's bullshit, but that's how it is for some companies.
> 
> As for people not getting scholarships and possibly not being college material: depending on the major (some majors are immensely harder than others), college isn't necessarily hard. If a person is of reasonable intelligence, wants a degree, can be responsible with money, and is willing to put in the level of work necessary for whatever degree they're going after (which for the most part really isn't that much unless it's a STEM degree) they probably should go to college. Most scholarships are based on what you did in high school, and I know plenty of people who were lazy in high school (thus couldn't get much in the way of scholarships) that did great in college. High school performance doesn't matter nearly as much in the long run as college performance does, and some people's actions are guided by that.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree overall. However a University degree isn't the only way to gain a nice income. Many trades can offer well paying jobs, as well. Even if you get into sales, many sales jobs pay very well, if you have the right experience. Plus, like I said, at the end of the day, it's everyone's personal choice as to what they're going to do. I'm not completely against a University education. I just don't think it's necessary to any economy for the majority of people to obtain one. If anything, it will create more competition in most fields that require degrees, particularly popular degrees like education or accounting, while trade jobs are forced to outsource due to lack of skilled workers.


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## coineineagh (Jul 5, 2017)

dulcinea said:


> 3. People who are "not college material" going to college has required Universities to lower their standards so they can keep a good customer base. This has led to an increasingly incompetent workforce, which has made the US less competitive in the global job market.


I agree that worldwide, a university education is undertaken too quickly, and that students should more seriously consider whether going to uni will be beneficial to their lives. The loans problem in the USA makes this even more important to consider, as the balance will too often be negative.

But the part I quoted above seems to be hyperbole, if you ask me. I'm not familiar with the situation in US schools, but your reasoning implies that lower standards are a direct result of maintaining a customer base. I see a contradiction here:
- Unis lower standards to get more students paying, meaning the demand is low, with resulting consequences
- Students all go to universities and take out loans to do so, meaning demand is high, with resulting consequences

So, which is it?


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

coineineagh said:


> I agree that worldwide, a university education is undertaken too quickly, and that students should more seriously consider whether going to uni will be beneficial to their lives. The loans problem in the USA makes this even more important to consider, as the balance will too often be negative.
> 
> But the part I quoted above seems to be hyperbole, if you ask me. I'm not familiar with the situation in US schools, but your reasoning implies that lower standards are a direct result of maintaining a customer base. I see a contradiction here:
> - Unis lower standards to get more students paying, meaning the demand is low, with resulting consequences
> ...


Greed. Demand is never high enough for them.


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## Nephandus (May 16, 2017)

Wild said:


> As for your point about student loans defaulting: if someone is responsible with their money and doesn't spend like a dumbass straight out of college, for the most part they should be able to pay $35,000 off in a few years. That's not a reason not to take out a loan, it's a reason to be responsible with your money when you're out of college so that you can pay off your loans. People generally have full control over whether or not they default on their loans. Those that do are usually the ones that got excited about their new grown-up job and money and thus spent out of their means early (bought that new Audi too soon). After those loans are paid off, people can really start reaping the rewards of that improved paycheck.


And if you can't get a relevant job without already having a relevant job or even better paying unskilled jobs BECAUSE of the degree? I graduated in 2014, and I can't get a job that'd pay rent. I've been rejected for $17.9/hr warehouse jobs for being overqualified then offered ~$12 manager trainee dead-end shit or even random commission only "churn and burn" sales jobs that want an arbitrary 4 year degree.



Sundae said:


> Just don't pay it back. ^_^


And in 25 or 10 years, depending on whether you ever make almost $17k, you'll suddenly owe taxes on the forgiven amount without any deductions.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Wild said:


> Most scholarships are based on what you did in high school, and I know plenty of people who were lazy in high school (thus couldn't get much in the way of scholarships) that did great in college. High school performance doesn't matter nearly as much in the long run as college performance does, and some people's actions are guided by that.


Exactly what I was going to say. I dicked around a lot in high school, didn't go to all my classes and absolutely never did homework. I didn't engage in any extracurricular activities recognized by the school. I graduated, but did literally the bare minimum that I figured I could get away with. I still managed to get into university a few years later but nobody was chomping at the bit to give me scholarships or financial aid, and if I had relied on that as a criterion then I never would have went. But I have consistently been top of my class since then and the scholarships starting rolling in near the end of my second year, accordingly. 

It seems preposterous to me to even consider judging my academic merit based on what I did in high school. I was a teenager, barreling through puberty, and trying to orient myself in the world. I'm not saying everybody is cut out for college, but just not getting scholarships isn't necessarily a good indication of one's suitability. 

That being said, I think student loans should be taken sparingly and wisely. Don't take more than you can pay back, and try to work while in school as much as possible instead. Student loans are very low interest though - at least in Canada - and often come with bursaries and tons of other "free" money, so they can absolutely be worth it if you are willing to be financially smart about it.


So, yeah, the purpose of my anecdote is largely to say that you shouldn't be discouraged from higher education based purely on your performance as a teenager. Plenty of people have untapped potential, and with some hard work can achieve their goals.


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Nephandus said:


> And if you can't get a relevant job without already having a relevant job or even better paying unskilled jobs BECAUSE of the degree? I graduated in 2014, and I can't get a job that'd pay rent. I've been rejected for $17.9/hr warehouse jobs for being overqualified then offered ~$12 manager trainee dead-end shit or even random commission only "churn and burn" sales jobs that want an arbitrary 4 year degree.
> 
> 
> 
> And in 25 or 10 years, depending on whether you ever make almost $17k, you'll suddenly owe taxes on the forgiven amount without any deductions.


Out of curiosity, what is your degree in?


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Koch Brothers bought out and defunded a majority of the U.S. public university systems by cutting back on taxes and buying out top university officials. Now K-12 faces privatization.

When I attended school I could somewhat afford on a budget, I could barely pay for it, then I had no other choice but to pull out a loan.

I wanted to speak to a loan officer, but was told to just sign paperwork and the loan company will contact me shortly after graduation- no details, no nothing except "8% apr."

What wasn't disclosed, and what should've been discussed was "8% compounded *daily*."

Not to mention tuition kept climbing up so coincidently when the Koch's got involveud in the "charitable donations."

Banksters and criminals making a profit off millennials. To top it off, most students who do pull out loans face the crisis of finding jobs, opting out for internships and part-time work when they attend more affordable state school systems as most high paying jobs upon graduation tend to have affiliation the more expensive schools.

I busted my butt off paying off all my loans thank goodness. What upset me was the non-disclosure upon requesting for clarification (even the fine print can be confusing- not to mention deferment and forebearamce doesn't necessarily mean freezing APR; there are provisional reasons.")

If I could do it all over again- work and save money first. My loans were government and subsidized, and still a total ripoff. Not to mention a mediocre education.


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## Nephandus (May 16, 2017)

Wild said:


> Out of curiosity, what is your degree in?


Computer science BS, emphasis on the BS. VISA racket or diversity hire/affirmative action, ring any bells? I supposedly need a job to get a job, yet they import Indians with no skills at all, and, around the Greater Charlotte Area, they import white chicks from LA and NY with no experience and not great academia records. Not only that, most things are contractor shit with 6 month contracts, so I'd need 2 contracts to qualify as beyond entry-level and 4 to qualify as beyond junior level. This ignores all the fake jobs listings, natch, to handwave anyone but their VISA racket "consultancy"/bodyshop doctored resumes.


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## Wild (Jul 14, 2014)

Nephandus said:


> Computer science BS, emphasis on the BS. VISA racket or diversity hire/affirmative action, ring any bells? I supposedly need a job to get a job, yet they import Indians with no skills at all, and, around the Greater Charlotte Area, they import white chicks from LA and NY with no experience and not great academia records. Not only that, most things are contractor shit with 6 month contracts, so I'd need 2 contracts to qualify as beyond entry-level and 4 to qualify as beyond junior level. This ignores all the fake jobs listings, natch, to handwave anyone but their VISA racket "consultancy"/bodyshop doctored resumes.


I'm not trying to sound condescending whatsoever, so I'm sorry if this does.

But you've probably been doing something wrong if it's been 3 years and you still haven't been able to secure a decent job with a CS degree. A CS degree is one of the best ones you can get as far as job potential, there are jobs everywhere and the field is growing rapidly. Either you're not selling yourself well in interviews/in your resume, you haven't taken a job that gives you the experience that would help you (even 1-2 years in a bullshit intern job would be better than nothing), your grades weren't good enough (IDK if that matters in CS careers but I do know that for a lot of other STEM majors it's huge in getting your first job), you're not looking very hard/looking in the wrong places, or you're otherwise missing something that employers are looking for. I get that affirmative action is unfair, but it's still been 3 years. I don't think affirmative action and bullshit company practices alone would stop you from getting a job that pays rent over the course of 3 years of continued effort and searching when you have one of the best degrees you can get in your hand. You might even want to try moving somewhere with better job potential if you're open to that. 

As for the "needing a job to get a job"; also unfair, but you're gonna have to start from the bottom in any field unless you go to extended schooling (for a masters or doctorate usually) or otherwise do extremely well in school and do other volunteering/interning at the same time. Almost everyone I know who started right off with a sweet job either got their doctorate/masters with decent grades or otherwise had a good GPA in a financially powerful degree + interned during college. If you didn't do that, you're unfortunately gonna have to start lower on the totem pole and work your way up.

Maybe you should talk to some places you applied to for better CS jobs who've rejected you and see why they did it? There's always room for growth. Possibly an unfair assumption here, but it sounds to me like you're placing a lot of the blame on the industry/work world instead of looking for ways that you yourself can improve, which has probably been your biggest obstacle in getting the job you want.


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## ponpiri (Apr 30, 2017)

For-profit schools, especially e-schools, have done so much damage to higher education in this country. They prey on folks of lower economic standing in order to receive funding while their accreditation is in the weeds. They remind me of Section 8 scammers in a way.

I hate that the amount of loan debt I have costs as much as my dad's first house, but it was a great investment for me. I know many other students who are in debt up to their eyeballs when going to a real community college or just taking up a trade would have been better for them.

Essentially, people have to learn to make smarter choices much sooner. If a kid expects to fund their education past high school, they've got to start thinking seriously about it in middle school at least. 

This is especially true now that the push to privatize education is nearly a sure thing.


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## Nephandus (May 16, 2017)

Wild said:


> I'm not trying to sound condescending whatsoever, so I'm sorry if this does.
> 
> But you've probably been doing something wrong if it's been 3 years and you still haven't been able to secure a decent job with a CS degree. A CS degree is one of the best ones you can get as far as job potential, there are jobs everywhere and the field is growing rapidly. Either you're not selling yourself well in interviews/in your resume, you haven't taken a job that gives you the experience that would help you (even 1-2 years in a bullshit intern job would be better than nothing), your grades weren't good enough (IDK if that matters in CS careers but I do know that for a lot of other STEM majors it's huge in getting your first job), you're not looking very hard/looking in the wrong places, or you're otherwise missing something that employers are looking for. I get that affirmative action is unfair, but it's still been 3 years. I don't think affirmative action and bullshit company practices alone would stop you from getting a job that pays rent over the course of 3 years of continued effort and searching when you have one of the best degrees you can get in your hand. You might even want to try moving somewhere with better job potential if you're open to that.
> 
> ...


Companies don't talk. Most don't even explicitly reject. What planet you on? Most IT shit's through staffing companies that don't even tell you who their clients are or what the real job even was. They want a different face or years of experience that I don't have. Several explicitly wanted to see that I was already selling my own software, which they wanted to take off my hands then have me write more for them...

ALL dev/QA/analyst jobs claim to need experience, including the very few and only fucking internships I've ever seen listed around here. "3-5" or "5-7" years for "entry-level". Most places don't advertise for anything below intermediate level either, even that staffing companies admit that. I've only had 1 IRL interview, and they gave that to a non-programmer already working there, which was likely planned. That's the other use for an overloaded job listing, to prevent applicants to promote an internal hire out of nepotism. I couldn't get internships in uni, much less out. Our career IT chick walked out on her job when I started, and the alum career chick quit just after I graduated. There is a MASSIVE VISA racket, even in the uni's jobnet. The uni itself mostly hires Chinese in STEM now, including the bloody Dean of CS and IS. Otherwise, they hire chicks for lower level teachers.

Affirmative action here says that if all else is roughly equal, you give the job to a chick or a non-white guy. You can't see what that'll do at the bottom without experience? That effect's not going away with mere passage of time. Careerbuilder shows about 100 or more applicants for almost every job around here. How do you think that math works out? Recruiters literally get paid extra for females and non-white males in many places, and HR and hiring position attract SJWs after easy power with no skills. The closest I ever go to any job, I'd passed several tests and phone interview stages and was supposed to be meeting the hiring manager at the company itself, when the recruiter insisted on Skyping. He only restated shit he'd already said, when someone entered the room and said something. I didn't hear anything else from him after that session. After hounding him for weeks, when I finally got him to answer the damn phone, he admitted he'd placed someone else and refused to state a reason. Thing is, I had opted out of stating my race and gender, though my voice should've made the latter obvious. The Skype did nothing but show the guy my face, which apparently killed my chance, despite EVERYTHING I'd just passed with supposed flying colors. This shit is real. That one IRL interview I mentioned? ALL chicks in the entire office but the one white software guy, who'd gotten shifted to management of the department which now lack ANY programmers, and two half-dressed black guys that gave me the stink eye for walking down the hall. They looked pretty damn confused to see a white dude in a suit in the first place.

Check out Slashdot or DICE comments sometime. CS is not a good way to get a job in this economy. Hell, my age is likely a discrimination issue itself.

"Even in the computer and IT industry, the sector that employs the most STEM workers and is expected to grow the most over the next 5 to 10 years, not everyone who wants a job can find one. A recent study by the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a liberal-leaning think tank in Washington, D.C., found that more than a third of recent computer science graduates aren’t working in their chosen major; of that group, almost a third say the reason is that there are no jobs available."
The STEM Crisis Is a Myth - IEEE Spectrum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_shopping#Indian_body_shopping_networks
"Last year the Center for Investigative Reporting reported on abuses of so-called "body shops" - labor brokers who enlist foreign workers abroad, press them into exploitative contracts and cut them undersized checks as they do contract work for established tech concerns that may want to avert the bad publicity. Howard University public policy Professor Ron Hira testified that Washington "inadvertently created a highly profitable business model" to bring in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) professionals at cheaper wages.
...
For his part, Hira testified that the lion's share of recipients are not the cream of the workforce, but more like "ordinary IT workers." As for the notion that there is a shortage of STEM workers, Hira added that if skilled workers were as much in demand as H-1B boosters suggest, SoCalEdison SCE workers would have left for better jobs. Instead, they are training their replacements.
...
While Americans think that the H-1B visa program requires U.S. firms to make a good-faith effort to hire an American, the law includes no such mandate."
Saunders: H-1B visa racket doesn't benefit workers - Houston Chronicle
Intel doubles bonuses for referring women and minorities - Aug. 4, 2015
https://www.eremedia.com/ere/instan...results-with-a-bonus-for-diversity-referrals/


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Nephandus said:


> Companies don't talk. Most don't even explicitly reject. What planet you on? Most IT shit's through staffing companies that don't even tell you who their clients are or what the real job even was. They want a different face or years of experience that I don't have. Several explicitly wanted to see that I was already selling my own software, which they wanted to take off my hands then have me write more for them...
> 
> ALL dev/QA/analyst jobs claim to need experience, including the very few and only fucking internships I've ever seen listed around here. "3-5" or "5-7" years for "entry-level". Most places don't advertise for anything below intermediate level either, even that staffing companies admit that. I've only had 1 IRL interview, and they gave that to a non-programmer already working there, which was likely planned. That's the other use for an overloaded job listing, to prevent applicants to promote an internal hire out of nepotism. I couldn't get internships in uni, much less out. Our career IT chick walked out on her job when I started, and the alum career chick quit just after I graduated. There is a MASSIVE VISA racket, even in the uni's jobnet. The uni itself mostly hires Chinese in STEM now, including the bloody Dean of CS and IS. Otherwise, they hire chicks for lower level teachers.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there probably was demand at one point, but so many people went out to get CS degrees, there's way too much competition in the field, likely. What I'm doing, for myself is creating various websites to monetize and build my portfolio, and afterwards maybe work on projects in Github. I know I'll end up having female privilege in the field, but tbh, I don't want it. I want to be considered for my merits, not my genitalia. Affirmative Action is terrible. It stagnates the growth of business by taking away the meritocracy; honestly, from what I've seen, smart sensible minorities don't even really appreciate it, because they want to be seen as competent, not as the "affrimative action hire".


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## Nephandus (May 16, 2017)

dulcinea said:


> Yeah, there probably was demand at one point, but so many people went out to get CS degrees, there's way too much competition in the field, likely. What I'm doing, for myself is creating various websites to monetize and build my portfolio, and afterwards maybe work on projects in Github. I know I'll end up having female privilege in the field, but tbh, I don't want it. I want to be considered for my merits, not my genitalia. Affirmative Action is terrible. It stagnates the growth of business by taking away the meritocracy; honestly, from what I've seen, smart sensible minorities don't even really appreciate it, because they want to be seen as competent, not as the "affrimative action hire".


I don't do web stuff, which's apparently assumed at this point, even in jobs that shouldn't particularly involve the internet, much less the web. "App" culture's creating a mess, which is ironic since Mobile Application Development was my only really practical coding class. The most complete project for that class is linked on my resume. They don't seem to care though. Like I said, they seem to want me to have my own app selling well, before they take it from me and give me a lower paying job I wouldn't need, if I were selling such a successful app. Outside web/app stuff, they want me to have a private project equivalent to >=3 intermediate or beyond devs working for at least a year. It's completely unrealistic, but they don't have to be when they've got cheaper captive labor, and they don't actually care about quality or necessarily even getting the job done.

The funny thing about pushing uninterested chicks into IT (or STEM) is that they're not only incompatible with the jobs or the culture of the male geeks in them. They're incompatible with the real geek chicks that didn't need the push. Complete culture clash and lack of personal interest. I've seen the jokes even posted by IT chicks about the non-tech chicks with fake pseudo-tech titles just to meet the very real quotas. I've also seen them complain about basic data structures as their failing point. How the fuck can you do IT and not easily comprehend how software "mechanically" functions at basic (for high level coding, I mean) level?


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

Nephandus said:


> The funny thing about pushing uninterested chicks into IT (or STEM) is that they're not only incompatible with the jobs or the culture of the male geeks in them. They're incompatible with the real geek chicks that didn't need the push. Complete culture clash and lack of personal interest. I've seen the jokes even posted by IT chicks about the non-tech chicks with fake pseudo-tech titles just to meet the very real quotas. I've also seen them complain about basic data structures as their failing point. How the fuck can you do IT and not easily comprehend how software "mechanically" functions at basic (for high level coding, I mean) level?


YES! This! Ever heard of Titstare? I read about it in this stupid glamour magazine artile about feminism in the tech industry, and apparantly it was this fake app, which I guess was supposed to make fun of stupid apps marketed to dudes, and so many women just got so offended to the high heavans saying things like "this is a sign that women are not welcome in the tech industry," and stuff like that seriously ticks me off. You have all these girls entering the industry, probably prompted by some gender studies professor, and it's almost like they're looking for something to be offended by, and they sometimes make the industry a hostile environment to men, and then they turn around around why a lot of these men don't want to work with women.


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