# Fi and decision making



## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

I want to see if anyone else relates to this.

I'm Fi-dominant and I have a VERY difficult time making decisions if there is any substantial emotional consideration to it. Like, how it's going to make me feel is The Thing. I grapple with it forever, considering all the different possible scenarios, to see which one "feels" the most right/best. And I get sucked into EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY, each one "feeling" so real and important. And even if I go with the choice that will make me feel worse in the short term, it's because I think it will make me feel better in the long term.

But consequently, I find it particularly difficult to make those kinds of hard decisions - the kind where I'm going to be temporarily in more pain for the sake of the Long Term. And then once I make the choice, it's hard for me not to go back over it in my mind a million times, thinking about how it could have turned out differently, how maybe I made the wrong choice. Maybe this is also a result of FiNe, I don't know. 

But I do wonder if it's perhaps because... I use my emotions and value system so heavily in order to process the world or gauge situations, that I more often than not trust my emotions to be "correct". So if I make a rational choice but have an emotional protest to it, I have a hard time not believing that the emotional protest is "truth". I mean, everyone has emotional reflexes, it's just, I wonder if it's harder for a Fi user to trust that the knee-jerk emotional response isn't necessarily the Best Thing to go off of.

(I realize there's more to Fi than just ~having emotions~ but I'm talking about making judgements based on how it makes you feel etc).

If you're not Fi-dom, how to experience things like this?


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

spectralsparrow said:


> I want to see if anyone else relates to this.
> 
> I'm Fi-dominant and I have a VERY difficult time making decisions if there is any substantial emotional consideration to it. Like, how it's going to make me feel is The Thing. I grapple with it forever, considering all the different possible scenarios, to see which one "feels" the most right/best. And I get sucked into EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY, each one "feeling" so real and important.


This sounds to me like you Ne is what is influencing your Fi, making it difficult to narrow down and make your decision and move forward. I'm trying to think of parallels I might have with my Se keeping me from making decisions like this, but it's hard for me, at the moment, to think of a parallel. Hm.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm not Fi dominant but I think I have a fairly developed/differentiated Fi for an INTJ anyway, and I have more of a problem with this regarding Te, in that I often see the logical result of an action and how that externally may or should be more desirable because of the outcomes or results that are being offered, but I cannot make myself enjoy or like it because well, it doesn't _feel right_. And I think that's about what it boils down to, in that it's important for me to make life decisions that feel like it's the right thing to do for me. Doesn't concern everyday life much though, but more like large decisions that will have a greater impact on my overall being. 

I don't have the whole possibilities-stuff going on though. I usually only see two viable scenarios that keep complexifying in their nature (A leads to B and C, B leads to D and E whereas C F and G etc) and the difficult part is sometimes finding a way to reconcile or finding a better alternative, especially if none are seen as particularly desirable.

As for short vs long term, I tend to aim for long term really. Short term doesn't quite become me because well, it's short. It's more a hardship to go through in order to get where you actually want and if that is the most desirable thing, it's really a non-issue. It just makes the final outcome so much more rewarding.

If you want a more practical example of how the INTJ mind may operate when it comes to Fi and decision-making, I recommend the film Mr. Nobody. It's a great example of how the entire process may look like though of course exaggerated for the sake of fiction.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> I don't have the whole possibilities-stuff going on though. I usually only see two viable scenarios that keep complexifying in their nature (A leads to B and C, B leads to D and E whereas C F and G etc) and the difficult part is sometimes finding a way to reconcile or finding a better alternative, especially if none are seen as particularly desirable.


Haha, I definitely do that, too. It's just harder for me to work everything out because I see it like, A leads to B *or* C (or maybe both, but then each one presents me with another choice, etc). And then, the end goal is often finding emotional peace or making emotional sense of something, something that feels "right". I mean, it has to make logical sense as well, but maybe that's because part of my value system involves thinking critically and not being wilfully ignorant. In fact now that I just said that, I *know* that's a big part of it, haha. 



> As for short vs long term, I tend to aim for long term really. Short term doesn't quite become me because well, it's short. It's more a hardship to go through in order to get where you actually want and if that is the most desirable thing, it's really a non-issue. It just makes the final outcome so much more rewarding.


Yes, that's just it! I rationally understand that long term > short term, and I try to make my big life decisions accordingly. But it's excessively hard for me to do the "wiser long term" thing, when it's going to be substantially more painful in the short term. It *feels* wrong, so I'll figure maybe it *is* wrong, because I am used to the emotion being the most influential thing in any given moment. And then I start to doubt if it really is the best thing long term, like maybe I forgot to properly consider or weigh this or that factor... because after all... blablabla... 

So for example, breaking off a romantic thing with someone you actually really like, hahaha. Right when it was probably about to get serious. Because you can see long term compatibility issues and you know it's not everything you're looking for (critical things that can't be compromised). But you really like them and it's really painful because you have these good memories and you wanted to make more of them, and you has these ideas of things you were hoping to do with them and now you can't, and they make you laugh, and feel good, and you miss them, and you admire them, but now it's gonna be all gone, BLABLA, that kinda BS. Right? 

Well, that doesn't change the fact that you'd probably not be happy in a long term relationship, and then you'll just have to break up anyway, when you're more attached and it will hurt more and it will have "wasted" their time and your own, because then you'll need time to recover and by being alone and it just prolongs the amount of time until you find the "right" person. They also deserve someone who is better for them (which probably happens to mean a less intense and indecisive weirdo, just saying). Seems most logical, even after thinking of all the alternatives. So you break things off.

But THEN for the next couple of days, you're like, but what if it COULD have worked out or what if I'd done X, Y, or Z. And I miss this thing and that thing, and it hurts so it must be wrong. Or if I hadn't broken things off then I could have had this experience or that, and it could have been worthwhile no matter how it turned out, and now look at all these things I'm missing, BLABLBALA. Okay. And it's like, I know I'm just doing The Thing that people do, I think this is somewhat common to do, but I *torment* myself about it because it *feels* a certain way and I can literally immerse myself in the feeling of the possibilities so it feels "real" and I doubt my choice. Lmfao. Even though they're probably completely moved on from it, and, NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT IT NOW ANYWAY, MIND YOU. 

...Just hypothetically speaking. >_>

Anyway, that really is just one example, and now that a few more days have gone by, I'm more resolved and pretty much over it... BUT. It is a theme in my life. And I would like to understand why so that I can make it GO. A. WAY.



> If you want a more practical example of how the INTJ mind may operate when it comes to Fi and decision-making, I recommend the film Mr. Nobody. It's a great example of how the entire process may look like though of course exaggerated for the sake of fiction.


Yes, thank you for the recommendation! I think I will actually look into that.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh god, the Ne... Are you sure you're not an ENFP lol? 



spectralsparrow said:


> Haha, I definitely do that, too. It's just harder for me to work everything out because I see it like, A leads to B *or* C (or maybe both, but then each one presents me with another choice, etc). And then, the end goal is often finding emotional peace or making emotional sense of something, something that feels "right". I mean, it has to make logical sense as well, but maybe that's because part of my value system involves thinking critically and not being wilfully ignorant. In fact now that I just said that, I *know* that's a big part of it, haha.


Yeah, no, that's not how I think at all. The best way I can describe my thinking is more akin to a flowchart. If A then B, else C, and if C, then D, else E etc. Options exclude, they do not include. If options include, it's because both A and B lead to C, rather than A > C or B > C as exclusive categories. 

I think the difference is that I do not find that my decisions regarding Fi actually make logical sense. I find that they don't. I'll give a real life example down below in response to the other things you wrote. 



> Yes, that's just it! I rationally understand that long term > short term, and I try to make my big life decisions accordingly. But it's excessively hard for me to do the "wiser long term" thing, when it's going to be substantially more painful in the short term. It *feels* wrong, so I'll figure maybe it *is* wrong, because I am used to the emotion being the most influential thing in any given moment. And then I start to doubt if it really is the best thing long term, like maybe I forgot to properly consider or weigh this or that factor... because after all... blablabla...
> 
> So for example, breaking off a romantic thing with someone you actually really like, hahaha. Right when it was probably about to get serious. Because you can see long term compatibility issues and you know it's not everything you're looking for (critical things that can't be compromised). But you really like them and it's really painful because you have these good memories and you wanted to make more of them, and you has these ideas of things you were hoping to do with them and now you can't, and they make you laugh, and feel good, and you miss them, and you admire them, but now it's gonna be all gone, BLABLA, that kinda BS. Right?
> 
> ...


Ok, so my example. I recently got together with my girlfriend and logically speaking, it would really be a bad idea because it would be an LDR and I don't really like LDRs since they are very frustrating and emotionally taxing to be in due to being separated etc. Furthermore, she's much younger than me (9 years) and as it looks like right now we might not be able to meet up until a year from now, roughly because we live in different countries and her country is not very nice towards LGBT people and I happened to fit both L and T according to their current law system sigh. In addition to this, we might not be able to live together until several years from now, so this is extreme long-term planning. In other words, even speaking in terms of long term, this relationship is gonna suck really bad for various. Yet I choose to get together with her because it was the right thing to do, essentially. My logic told me this is a really fucking bad idea because of all these issues, and while I am fairly good at predicting the future I can't predict everything including fickle things such as feelings. Maybe I just set myself up for the greatest disappointment ever. Yet I also knew that if I managed to get through all this, she might well become my lifetime partner. That's how I feel for her. So it was the right thing to do because I had to try. 

So there's an entirely different kind of weighing process really, likely because of differences in perception. 



> Yes, thank you for the recommendation! I think I will actually look into that.


It's a great film. Very Fi and intuitive and beautiful also in terms of cinematography, so I recommend it.


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## Psithurism (Jun 19, 2013)

My Fi-driven decisions definitely don't make any logical sense when contrasted with cold and ''empty'' Te logic and I'm quite aware of it usually. I simply choose to do the right thing according to what I value.

Although some possible decisions I tend to over-analyze and complexify because they initially seem so naive to me so I struggle to make sense of them with Te logic. Yet it's not plausible to do that and only makes it more troublesome. So when it's at its strongest and I cannot ignore it, I just go with it to avoid too much analysis which tends to cripple me from a decision.

With time I've allowed myself to accept that not everything needs to make perfect sense for it to be the correct choice.


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## purple_seastar (Feb 17, 2014)

I agree with everything you said- I am the EXACT same way! I have a friend who is INFP and we are working on a project together. When we get to a point where we have to make a decision, we end up at a stand still. We both feel like we need someone to reassure our gut instinct, but neither of us are decisive enough to reassure the other  And we over think small things and over look big things and just end up standing there like 

"Should we... ?"
"I don't know..."
"What if... ?"
"But what about... ?"
"I have no idea..."

It makes it difficult... we always end up agreeing that we are both indecisive and getting nowhere


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

ephemereality said:


> Oh god, the Ne... Are you sure you're not an ENFP lol?


Hahaha, funny you should ask that... I have lately been thinking that I'd be a lot *less* introverted if it weren't for my social anxiety and earlier experiences with social trauma. But even still, I'm quite sure Fi will always be my primary. Ne informs it... a lot... but like I mentioned, even with all these different ideas and possibilities and reflexive improvisations, the end goal or main driving factor is ALWAYS finding emotional harmony between the world and my values. 



> Yeah, no, that's not how I think at all. The best way I can describe my thinking is more akin to a flowchart. If A then B, else C, and if C, then D, else E etc. Options exclude, they do not include. If options include, it's because both A and B lead to C, rather than A > C or B > C as exclusive categories.
> 
> I think the difference is that I do not find that my decisions regarding Fi actually make logical sense. I find that they don't. I'll give a real life example down below in response to the other things you wrote.
> 
> ...


Wow! Well, best of luck to you! I guess the situation in general, aside from weighing process, is a little different in that you have a clear end-goal that will be rewarding... something good to work towards. Whereas my end goal with this situation is simply more like... damage control, lmao. I didn't/don't have much good to look forward to with my situation/decision, it's just that things would otherwise be even worse in the long run. But still, it's interesting to hear about your thought process with it. But anyway, glad you've found someone you can feel that strongly about, it definitely sounds like the possible end result would be worth it if brought into fruition, and I wish you the best!


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## I Kant (Jan 19, 2013)

I evaluate the priority of values and the priority of pragmatics, hopefully with the long view. I pick something I think I won't regret.


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## Wayside (Nov 29, 2012)

I’m decisive on where I stand on things, but when it comes to making a decision to DO something I pretty consistently say to myself something like, “Well, let’s just see what happens.” As a P I avoid making decision unless I have a strong conviction about what needs to be done. What if there’s another factor that is yet to be revealed?!? Also, as in introverted judging dominant I am really insecure about my indecisiveness and difficulty getting sh*t done. For example, when I see other people taking action in preparation for some upcoming event and nothing like that has even occurred to me I worry about what this says about me and what others think of me. And when I do try to be decisive and action-oriented I am like a relentless drill sergeant – it’s scary and stressful. I try to be aware of that as my blind spot and feed it a little so my insecurity doesn't get the better of me, and then let myself do whatever feels like the right thing to me. Learning about cognitive functions has definitely helped me to live better with these different aspects of myself.

I’m with you on going over all the possibilities before making a decision and then thinking of all the ways something could have been different afterwards. I just see this as the way I work and don’t try to not be that way. But I have to sometimes consciously tell myself to just make a damn decision. I take a step back and consider whether all the mental energy I’m putting into this thing matters considering what it is. Then other times I have to recognize that I just don’t want to make a decision yet and be okay with letting something sit unresolved.



> So for example, breaking off a romantic thing with someone you actually really like, hahaha. Right when it was probably about to get serious. Because you can see long term compatibility issues and you know it's not everything you're looking for (critical things that can't be compromised). But you really like them and it's really painful because you have these good memories and you wanted to make more of them, and you has these ideas of things you were hoping to do with them and now you can't, and they make you laugh, and feel good, and you miss them, and you admire them, but now it's gonna be all gone, BLABLA, that kinda BS. Right?
> 
> Well, that doesn't change the fact that you'd probably not be happy in a long term relationship, and then you'll just have to break up anyway, when you're more attached and it will hurt more and it will have "wasted" their time and your own, because then you'll need time to recover and by being alone and it just prolongs the amount of time until you find the "right" person. They also deserve someone who is better for them (which probably happens to mean a less intense and indecisive weirdo, just saying). Seems most logical, even after thinking of all the alternatives. So you break things off.
> 
> But THEN for the next couple of days, you're like, but what if it COULD have worked out or what if I'd done X, Y, or Z. And I miss this thing and that thing, and it hurts so it must be wrong. Or if I hadn't broken things off then I could have had this experience or that, and it could have been worthwhile no matter how it turned out, and now look at all these things I'm missing, BLABLBALA


I get this. I can put so much into coming to the best course of action and it all makes sense, but let a bit of time pass and it seems like there’s all these new factors and I’ve got to think it all out again from the beginning. What I want is to determine the course of action that makes sense, follow it and then not be bothered about what to do anymore, to feel a sense of closure. But it’s necessary I think to keep revisiting the decision. Why? Hmmm....to gain confidence in the decisions you make, to be responsive to things that change, to learn what’s worth worrying about and what’s not.

To me this desire to have closure through decisions is the Fi temptation. What matters to Fi doesn’t have to change if it can implement what it believes is the right thing to do. It can barrel straight ahead and uphold everything that’s sacred to it. But Fi needs to question itself, or it needs Se or Ne to pull in information that will put what it values in question. That’s how it grows and becomes more refined.



> I wonder if it's harder for a Fi user to trust that the knee-jerk emotional response isn't necessarily the Best Thing to go off of.


I think this is part of maturing for Fi users. Learning when the emotional response isn’t a good basis for a decision. I think it’s how we get at what’s really true and what’s not as true as we might have previously thought it was. And oh man, is it ever satisfying when you know what really matters and what doesn’t. So much peace of mind. And conversely, a bit of a nightmare when you don’t yet know.


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## Wayside (Nov 29, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> I have more of a problem with this regarding Te, in that I often see the logical result of an action and how that externally may or should be more desirable because of the outcomes or results that are being offered, but I cannot make myself enjoy or like it because well, it doesn't _feel right_.


Huh...interesting. I wonder if that has to do with the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] and 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] functions being less differentiated then the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] and 4[SUP]th[/SUP] functions.


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## Wayside (Nov 29, 2012)

purple_seastar said:


> I have a friend who is INFP and we are working on a project together. When we get to a point where we have to make a decision, we end up at a stand still. We both feel like we need someone to reassure our gut instinct, but neither of us are decisive enough to reassure the other


I noticed that when I am with other people, I am really terrible at creating structure or making decisions with the other people. But often when I get away from them, if I do know what I think the best decision or course of action is, I can suddenly see it. It’s like interacting with people interferes with my own understanding and decisiveness. I just thought I’d share because it might help you and your friend. If she could be alone for a bit she might be able to gather her thoughts and then come back to you with something more solid for you two to talk through together. I have an ENFJ boss and we have this kind of dynamic.


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## purple_seastar (Feb 17, 2014)

Wayside said:


> I noticed that when I am with other people, I am really terrible at creating structure or making decisions with the other people. But often when I get away from them, if I do know what I think the best decision or course of action is, I can suddenly see it. It’s like interacting with people interferes with my own understanding and decisiveness. I just thought I’d share because it might help you and your friend. If she could be alone for a bit she might be able to gather her thoughts and then come back to you with something more solid for you two to talk through together. I have an ENFJ boss and we have this kind of dynamic.


Good idea  Thanks!


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## TaylorS (Jan 24, 2010)

The worst for me is when I have to make a decision about something that results in a clash between two or more of my core values. I become mentally paralyzed and I feel like shit.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I think Fi doms in particular can be a lot more rigid and firm about what their positions are than they, or many type resources realize. Maybe not _decisive_ in the traditional sense of the word, but definitely not without an opinion (which, I think can ironically make it harder for them to decide, or not want to decide). They're dominant Judgers, and a rational type. That goes for both INFP and ISFP. Many of the INFP I've met like to dominate the "closeness" to which you both engage - they're fairly certain that they can give you just the moral or personal input you need, and that you're going to benefit from it and become closer with them because of it.

Basically, I'd like to dispel the notion that these types are too loosey goosey, opinionless, etc. They certainly have opinions and positions on things - they just don't come from what factual information is right under their nose, which can make them look poor at "decision making" to those who do base their opinions from rote objective fact.


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## shiny (May 22, 2013)

default settings said:


> I evaluate the priority of values and the priority of pragmatics, hopefully with the long view. I pick something I think I won't regret.


I tend to regret things that COULD have been much more than the things that DID happen, even if they sucked a whole lot. It shouldn't be too surprising, then, that the decisions I struggle with the most are the "road-not-taken" sort of ones, where I can never backtrack, revisit, or otherwise glimpse down that other road. BOY, those drive me NUTS!!! :angry: I HATE knowing that there's something I COULD have experienced, but lost that chance. And don't even get me started on ice cream flavors... those places with 19283894934 flavors are a very special kind of hell. :laughing:


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## walkingpastdeadpretense (Feb 17, 2014)

Wayside said:


> I noticed that when I am with other people, I am really terrible at creating structure or making decisions with the other people. But often when I get away from them, if I do know what I think the best decision or course of action is, I can suddenly see it. It’s like interacting with people interferes with my own understanding and decisiveness. I just thought I’d share because it might help you and your friend. If she could be alone for a bit she might be able to gather her thoughts and then come back to you with something more solid for you two to talk through together. I have an ENFJ boss and we have this kind of dynamic.


I notice the opposite with myself. I make decisions better with others and then I get annoyed because I feel like I shouldn't have come to a conclusion because I reflect back on what else I could have done and want to do that or remain pondering. I have this indecisive mess with a friend who could be INP and sometimes with my ISFJ friend and ISFJ sister. My ENFJ tends to makes me come to conclusions, which, as I said, irritates me.
@spectralsparrow, I totally understand where you're coming from and I definitely think it's that Fi-Ne that screws with us...


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

It might be convenient to blame your FiNe's "OMG every decision must be personally important, AND I SEE TEH POSSIBILITIZ, SO MANY OF THEM LOLS" and "Everything I do MUST reflect muh complex and deep inner core values, when it clashes with them I BECOME THE HULK AND SMASH YOU" for being indecisive, while it's just a non-MBTI related personality flaw you have to overcome for the sake of being a mature human being.

Being an INFP does not provide you with that pseudo-intellectual excuse to act like a whiny child you've been looking for. Perhaps being diagnosed with a mental condition might provide you one.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

Figure said:


> I think Fi doms in particular can be a lot more rigid and firm about what their positions are than they, or many type resources realize. Maybe not _decisive_ in the traditional sense of the word, but definitely not without an opinion (which, I think can ironically make it harder for them to decide, or not want to decide). They're dominant Judgers, and a rational type. That goes for both INFP and ISFP. Many of the INFP I've met like to dominate the "closeness" to which you both engage - they're fairly certain that they can give you just the moral or personal input you need, and that you're going to benefit from it and become closer with them because of it.
> 
> Basically, I'd like to dispel the notion that these types are too loosey goosey, opinionless, etc. They certainly have opinions and positions on things - they just don't come from what factual information is right under their nose, which can make them look poor at "decision making" to those who do base their opinions from rote objective fact.


Well, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that Fi-doms can't have strong opinions. I have VERY STRONG OPINIONS. Passionate opinions. But making a personal decision can be different than just forming a solid opinion on a thing. And some decisions are easy, when there's no clash between my logic and values or my emotions. Some things are just a given for me, maybe more than they should be.

But there are some things that drive me crazy, if I haven't formed a solid opinion yet -- IN FACT, that's JUST THE THING. *Not* knowing my final opinion/decision is what troubles me so much since I'm so used to being so in touch with that part of myself, at least for things on a certain scale. But the confusion does happen --- either because I have so many conflicting emotions that are possibly out of synch with my logic and core values, or perhaps my core values themselves are competing. 

I'm opinionated but I'm indecisive, at the same time. It's a possible thing. And it drives me NUTS. Especially because... while being indecisive, I do see the merit behind so many different possibilities, and can have strong opinions on each and every possibility, without everything coming together to make perfect sense.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

KraChZiMan said:


> It might be convenient to blame your FiNe's "OMG every decision must be personally important, AND I SEE TEH POSSIBILITIZ, SO MANY OF THEM LOLS" and "Everything I do MUST reflect muh complex and deep inner core values, when it clashes with them I BECOME THE HULK AND SMASH YOU" for being indecisive, while it's just a non-MBTI related personality flaw you have to overcome for the sake of being a mature human being.
> 
> Being an INFP does not provide you with that pseudo-intellectual excuse to act like a whiny child you've been looking for. Perhaps being diagnosed with a mental condition might provide you one.



ROFL! Rude?

But, I'm not looking for an excuse. This is a tendency I *really* want to get past, hence the exploration. I'm curious if anyone can relate, but I'm not looking for any definitive answers here. I often find it helpful to consider personality theory as ONE possible aspect behind my thoughts/behaviour/motivations, because it provides some framework for examining how I'm potentially relating myself to the world. It's certainly not the ONLY explanation, but it can help me spot potential traps that I might be falling into. 

I don't see how I'm being a whiny child. It's not like I usually drag other people into this chaotic nonsense of mine - I process it all very quietly until I think I'm as confident as I'm going to be, then I make my decision. I might worry about it and question it after the fact, but I keep that to myself too. I am not one to play games with people.

And thanks, I've in fact been diagnosed with severe depression, generalized anxiety, PTSD, OCD and ADD. However, while I appreciate the suggestion, I opt not to use those as excuses for my behaviour, either; I'm being treated and am mostly pretty functional.

I work hard to grow and stay as healthy as possible, including trying not to internalize the shame and stigma associated with mental illness --- thanks for helping make that harder, but I'm sure I'll get through it


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## hal0hal0 (Sep 1, 2012)

spectralsparrow said:


> I'm opinionated but I'm indecisive, at the same time. It's a possible thing. And it drives me NUTS. Especially because... while being indecisive, I do see the merit behind so many different possibilities, and can have strong opinions on each and every possibility, without everything coming together to make perfect sense.


I can relate to what you're saying a lot, actually. Especially what was said earlier about long term vs. short term... The uncertainty of the future and the idea that, by making one choice, I *have* to sacrifice another can drive me into a paralysis where I would rather make no decision at all than a potentially wrong one. I hate thinking about the future. I absolutely hate it. But I can't help but fantasize and hope for the best, which actually ends up hurting because I spend more time dreaming than acting. I get stuck in a rut of dreams.

The whole "follow your heart" thing is complicated when the heart is at war with itself. What happens when the heart wants to go into 5 separate directions at once? A part of me wants to commit to the path I've chosen and another wants to throw caution to the wind, abandon everything, and start all over from scratch. It's hard to know what the right thing to do is, especially when both choices are justifiable... it's like deciding which of your parents you love more... what happens if you love them both?

This is not easy, nor do I think it ever gets easier, but I think a lot of it, for me, is learning to just accept that I won't be able to have it all... I think I have this idea of how things ought to be, but then all the dangers that threaten to destroy that dream make me not want to try at all. I guess it's like... you can't win the lottery if you never buy a ticket?

Dunno if that helps or not, lol. I'm kinda busy right now, so I might come back to this, but... fingers crossed!

edit: like @ephemereality I don't envision a wide, wide array of possibilities... usually the ones that are most likely based on present circumstances (probably an Fi-Ni loop thingie). I might have 2 or 3 possible outcomes that seem inevitable... almost like a trainwreck that I'm watching in slow motion. It feels almost fatalistic, in that regard.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

hal0hal0 said:


> edit: like @ephemereality I don't envision a wide, wide array of possibilities... usually the ones that are most likely based on present circumstances (probably an Fi-Ni loop thingie). I might have 2 or 3 possible outcomes that seem inevitable... almost like a trainwreck that I'm watching in slow motion. It feels almost fatalistic, in that regard.


Neither do I. The possibilities I envision are those I find to be likely outcomes of an action. As a concrete example, let's say you asked if I wanted to go out with you. The possibilities I would see then would be yes or no, and these two options can be infinitely complexified depending on what comes after, but I immediately only see these two options. The option I'll find desirable then depends on the results these options lead to. Let's say for example that I'm also romantically interested in you, if I then say yes, this will obviously have for most of the part, likely positive implications on the relationship that I find desirable. If I say no, it won't happen obviously. 

Again, I recommend watching Mr. Nobody if you want a good example of what I mean, where the two possibilities to stay with his mom or his dad end up taking up more complex outcomes over time with extremely varied results. Think of it as some kind of map of evolution or pyramid where you start from the top and then go to the bottom that just keeps growing. Ideally you want to somehow make that come into one singular conclusion eventually, but that's usually pretty darn impossible.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

ephemereality said:


> Neither do I. The possibilities I envision are those I find to be likely outcomes of an action. As a concrete example, let's say you asked if I wanted to go out with you. The possibilities I would see then would be yes or no, and these two options can be infinitely complexified depending on what comes after, but I immediately only see these two options.


Well, if it were I in this situation, would be the "why" behind it all--why was I asked? If I say yes, how will the other react. If I say no, how will they react, and all those whys become a mental block on action... 

For me, that's how it would fall out, not on the actual yes or no, but how it operates behind the scenes. I call it weak Ni.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

ferroequinologist said:


> Well, if it were I in this situation, would be the "why" behind it all--why was I asked? If I say yes, how will the other react. If I say no, how will they react, and all those whys become a mental block on action...
> 
> For me, that's how it would fall out, not on the actual yes or no, but how it operates behind the scenes. I call it weak Ni.


Yes, obviously, the yes/no is just the starting point into the "why". I don't place mental focus on yes/no, but on the stuff that comes after which helps me decide on said yes/no.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

spectralsparrow said:


> I want to see if anyone else relates to this.
> 
> I'm Fi-dominant and I have a VERY difficult time making decisions if there is any substantial emotional consideration to it. Like, how it's going to make me feel is The Thing. I grapple with it forever, considering all the different possible scenarios, to see which one "feels" the most right/best. And I get sucked into EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY, each one "feeling" so real and important. And even if I go with the choice that will make me feel worse in the short term, it's because I think it will make me feel better in the long term.
> 
> ...


If this is worth anything... I had a conversation on a similar vein with an INFP friend... as he talked about how he makes hard decisions. He said that the thinks about every possible outcome and processes them all based on whether they will achieve, in the frankest and most honest terms, the ultimate goal. Usually, the ultimate goal is some nuanced moral imperative. 

He said that he will not act until he has satisfied himself on every possible scenario, and chosen 'the best one'... the one with the least 'collateral damage' that also will unerringly achieve the imperative. He said that it is almost mind-breaking if the scenario doesn't play out correctly, as he was convinced he'd thought of everything. This scenario, he says, would likely lead to rash action on his part, and a lot of mistakes, as he is unable to act on the fly very well (which is why he does initial endless rumination to begin with), but ideally he will just go back to square one. 

Essentially, he said that in a strategic scenario, he will act in a superior methodology and thus perform well, provided his predicted scenario plays out. The moment it doesn't, usually due to a superior strategist, he is incredibly vulnerable because he cannot think on his feet, and inferior Te will make him make brash moves. He needs prep time.

Anyway, I think INFP approaches emotional decisions similarly... attempting to ruminate on the best possible scenario. This differs from Ni, I assume, in that it is Si and thus based more on step by step methodology than an intuitive leap. The Ni might make an intuitive leap as to how it might play out, given the nature of the elements involved. INFP, on the other hand, will map out the scenario methodologically.... er... methodically? Hence the apt association with OCD.

I guess what I am saying is that this might be a concern to you, and stressful, because it is actually more oriented to Te and Si than you might imagine. Thus, the neurotic and draining nature of it.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

spectralsparrow said:


> ROFL! Rude?
> 
> But, I'm not looking for an excuse. This is a tendency I *really* want to get past, hence the exploration. I'm curious if anyone can relate, but I'm not looking for any definitive answers here. I often find it helpful to consider personality theory as ONE possible aspect behind my thoughts/behaviour/motivations, because it provides some framework for examining how I'm potentially relating myself to the world. It's certainly not the ONLY explanation, but it can help me spot potential traps that I might be falling into.
> 
> ...


Yeah, well good for you for working out on your problems, but it's wildly irrelevant, since it was never my intention to attack anybody as a person. Do you have the tendencies I described? No? Then obviously you're not to blame.

Mental illnesses and being an INFP have NO LINKS whatsoever. They are two different things, and besides, there are other threads for discussing mental disorders. 

What I was saying was actually a positive message, that INFP's can prevail at decision making. It's not a type to be unique in being hesitant, since all xNxP's slightly have this in common. However, being hesitant does not necessarily have to mean that decision making is going to be inherently lacking. Besides, ISFP's, the other kind of Fi doms, are actually surprisingly self-confident people, because of sufficient Se, and are not in any ways more hesitant folks than any other MBTI types. 

I saw others in this thread bringing up that INFP's are thinking a lot and weighing options before making decisions, but this could actually lead to a more rational decision making.

So, no need to take it personally. Didn't you see that I am an INFP myself too?


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## dulcinea (Aug 22, 2011)

spectralsparrow said:


> I want to see if anyone else relates to this.
> 
> I'm Fi-dominant and I have a VERY difficult time making decisions if there is any substantial emotional consideration to it. Like, how it's going to make me feel is The Thing. I grapple with it forever, considering all the different possible scenarios, to see which one "feels" the most right/best. And I get sucked into EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY, each one "feeling" so real and important. And even if I go with the choice that will make me feel worse in the short term, it's because I think it will make me feel better in the long term.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to say I love hearing about Fi from an FP type, I find it so fascinating how it works. My personal experience as an Ni-dom is that I need to gather as much information as possible before I make a decision, and when it's a big decision, especially if it's a money decision, I tend to wait until more information is available, and I thus procrastinate such decisions a lot. I am a huge procrastinator, because I'm very big on getting things right the first time, and when they're not I get really hard on myself, feeling like a failure.


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

KraChZiMan said:


> Yeah, well good for you for working out on your problems, but it's wildly irrelevant, since it was never my intention to attack anybody as a person. Do you have the tendencies I described? No? Then obviously you're not to blame.
> 
> Mental illnesses and being an INFP have NO LINKS whatsoever. They are two different things, and besides, there are other threads for discussing mental disorders.
> 
> ...


I hate to say it, but you were dismissive and rude in your first post. If there were some sort of thumb's down feature, I would have used it, but since there isn't, I just ignored you, but you were rude and dismissive...

Anyway, one thing you said was that indecision wasn't type related, and then you say this: "Besides, ISFP's, the other kind of Fi doms, are actually surprisingly self-confident people, because of sufficient Se, and are not in any ways more hesitant folks than any other MBTI types"

Which backhandedly implies that there are points to be made that it is type or function-related. But the reality is, though, that I can be quite indecisive at times, but the thing is, once my mind is made up, I don't go back. I don't reconsider or rethink, or if I do rethink, I almost never come to a different conclusion. I seldom have regrets or remorse about a decision I've made once it's made. Making the decision can be a hassle, but that's it.

Also, decisions regarding things--buying a car, or airline reservations, etc. seldom cause me pause. I just take the time to check my options--but never more than a handful--except with used cars. I may look at a couple dozen, take in four or five to the mechanic, and it may take me a couple weeks--but used cars are very fickle and complex constructions, and the purchase is for between 7 and 10 years, so I take my time and do it right. On the other hand, when it comes to less tangible things--non-material decisions, it can be harder for me to reach a conclusion. In fact, I may make the wrong one at first, but I almost always am aware of that. Even then, I almost never (one recent exception) ever change my mind or go back on my word. Once my word is given, I no longer weigh the consequences, but prefer to live them through. Only one time ever, and only recently did I back out of a decision. And it was a very difficult decision to come to, because people were depending on me. But once I realized that I was not the person for the job, and that my continued participation was not going to be constructive, the decision was easy. Yeah, a bit inconvenient for them, but their pain short-lived, and the benefits greater, so I bailed. I have no remorse over that either. I feel a little guilty, but not really--more guilty for the fact that I actually did something I've never done before... but honestly speaking, that's just emotion. And yes, I do attribute that to my Se and Fi, with strong support from my Ni. I can think about it, stepping back, and observing my thought processes, see how each of these is working. I could plug any content in, and come out with comparable results for myself. It's pretty fun to ponder, actually. Kind of like pouring water over an obstacle course, and watching how it flows, splashes and bounces over the obstacles, time and again.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

KraChZiMan said:


> Yeah, well good for you for working out on your problems, but it's wildly irrelevant, since it was never my intention to attack anybody as a person. Do you have the tendencies I described? No? Then obviously you're not to blame.
> 
> Mental illnesses and being an INFP have NO LINKS whatsoever. They are two different things, and besides, there are other threads for discussing mental disorders.
> 
> ...


I'm aware there is no correlation between INFP and mental illness. However, YOU said:* "**Being an INFP does not provide you with that pseudo-intellectual excuse to act like a whiny child you've been looking for. Perhaps being diagnosed with a mental condition might provide you one." *It was in response to that. Not irrelevant. 

I didn't take it *particularly* personally. But, I wanted to highlight one reason why your words were kind of insensitive, especially considering I _have _been "diagnosed" with "mental conditions" (those only mean so much --- I try to look past them --- but it seemed rather callous in the context you provided (equating "whiny, childish" behaviour with "mental condition")). You couldn't have known that, but I was mostly just trying to address why I disagreed with what I thought you were saying.

ANYWAY, point being, I don't use my MBTI type, Enneagram type, nor my depression etc as an excuse to behave immaturely, and I thought your response was rather dismissive and kind of missing the point of my post/questions. 

Yes, I noticed you're an INFP, and I don't see how that has to do with anything, so we may be seriously misunderstanding one another. Maybe I just read your post "the wrong way".... you know what they say about tone not translating well over text sometimes. Then again, it's kinda hard to interpret much other than mockery and condescension from something like: 
*
"**"OMG every decision must be personally important, AND I SEE TEH POSSIBILITIZ, SO MANY OF THEM LOLS" and "Everything I do MUST reflect muh complex and deep inner core values, when it clashes with them I BECOME THE HULK AND SMASH YOU""*

Lol. But I can kinda see how it might have just been meant as a joke and whatever. Maybe you were being literal, as opposed to sarcastic, about the mental condition thing. Just sure didn't seem that way *shrug*


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

spectralsparrow said:


> I'm aware there is no correlation between INFP and mental illness. However, YOU said:* "**Being an INFP does not provide you with that pseudo-intellectual excuse to act like a whiny child you've been looking for. Perhaps being diagnosed with a mental condition might provide you one." *It was in response to that. Not irrelevant.
> 
> I didn't take it *particularly* personally. But, I wanted to highlight one reason why your words were kind of insensitive, especially considering I _have _been "diagnosed" with "mental conditions" (those only mean so much --- I try to look past them --- but it seemed rather callous in the context you provided (equating "whiny, childish" behaviour with "mental condition")). You couldn't have known that, but I was mostly just trying to address why I disagreed with what I thought you were saying.
> 
> ...


Exactly. It was targeted towards people who behave that way and are INFP's, not to every single INFP. You shouldn't even had to brought up mental disorders topic, because it's not up to anybody other than people close to you, and your psychologist, to discuss about your condition. Anybody else will never learn the full details about this, making them unable to give you a decent advice, and can happily shut up.

All this, what you call mockery and being insensitive, is included because it's very annoying to see people who cower behind psychological concepts to explain "oh, but this type does that, and I am this type too, so it's expected of me! I am like that, you can't change me", while in reality they just can't be bothered to keep self-exploring or improving themselves. I believe they are the scum that ruins PerC and turns every interesting topic into a circlejerk of overgeneralizations.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Well in any situation I ask myself what I want to achieve.
Then I do the thing that seem to be closest to whatever I want.
Usually it involves a lot of compromises, but that I have to deal with as I go along.
The initial ideal can be very unrealistic, but as long as I don't attach too much importance on that,
but rather see it as a guideline I'm ok.
It is better to have as an ideal to be happy or balanced than neurotic and unbalanced 
over too much cognitive dissonance.
Any ideal I have is just an Ni abstract template anyway, I've slowly learned to accept that over time.
It must be much harder for Ne to negotiate this as ideals seem more objective "real", or so I've been told.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

KraChZiMan said:


> Exactly. It was targeted towards people who behave that way and are INFP's, not to every single INFP. You shouldn't even had to brought up mental disorders topic, because it's not up to anybody other than people close to you, and your psychologist, to discuss about your condition. Anybody else will never learn the full details about this, making them unable to give you a decent advice, and can happily shut up.
> 
> All this, what you call mockery and being insensitive, is included because it's very annoying to see people who cower behind psychological concepts to explain "oh, but this type does that, and I am this type too, so it's expected of me! I am like that, you can't change me", while in reality they just can't be bothered to keep self-exploring or improving themselves. I believe they are the scum that ruins PerC and turns every interesting topic into a circlejerk of overgeneralizations.


Oh god, seriously just get fucking over yourself and stop try so fucking hard. You still don't understand what spectralsparrow is saying even though you try very hard to pretend that you do. Just stop it. You were offensive and it would be better if you just admitted that you were wrong and made very premature (and immature) sweeping statement judgements about her character. Trying to rephrase the context is not going to change this in the least.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

Don't think it has anything to do with type, but I do think some types may be more prone to it. I overthink, overanalyze, am cautious, etc.. I think a lot of INFJ are. The best term to describe it is "catastrophize". We catastrophize. 

The thing about sacrificing short term comfort. That could be "short term hedonism":



> Proponents of Albert Ellis' Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy cite a construct or concept they call *low frustration tolerance* (*LFT*), or "short-term hedonism" in order to partly explain behaviors like procrastination and certain other apparently paradoxical or self-defeating behavior. It is defined as seeking immediate pleasure or avoidance of pain at the cost of long-term stress and defeatism.
> The concept was originally developed by psychologist Albert Ellis who theorized that low frustration tolerance is an evaluative component in dysfunctional and irrational beliefs. Behaviors are then derived towards avoiding frustrating events which, paradoxically, lead to increased frustration and even greater mental stress.


You could be having obsessive thoughts and/or distorted cognitions. Doesn't really seem that bad though. I went through something similar and got better. I think this rational emotive therapy has some good ideas in dealing with distorted cognitions and irrational thinking.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Oh god, seriously just get fucking over yourself and stop try so fucking hard. You still don't understand what spectralsparrow is saying even though you try very hard to pretend that you do. Just stop it. You were offensive and it would be better if you just admitted that you were wrong and made very premature (and immature) sweeping statement judgements about her character. Trying to rephrase the context is not going to change this in the least.


I can't be blamed when people like you take me out of context and say that I was being intentionally offensive. In that case, it becomes your interpretation of what I said, not what I actually wanted to say.

But it's always good to see particular users following me around in every single thread I post with an intention of antagonizing me. It helps me to weed out the people who's opinion I can't take seriously.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

KraChZiMan said:


> Exactly. It was targeted towards people who behave that way and are INFP's, not to every single INFP. You shouldn't even had to brought up mental disorders topic, because it's not up to anybody other than people close to you, and your psychologist, to discuss about your condition. Anybody else will never learn the full details about this, making them unable to give you a decent advice, and can happily shut up.
> 
> All this, what you call mockery and being insensitive, is included because it's very annoying to see people who cower behind psychological concepts to explain "oh, but this type does that, and I am this type too, so it's expected of me! I am like that, you can't change me", while in reality they just can't be bothered to keep self-exploring or improving themselves. I believe they are the scum that ruins PerC and turns every interesting topic into a circlejerk of overgeneralizations.


I don't know... I still don't see how anything I said wasn't just addressing something you originally said... I also don't see how I was supposed to realize that you weren't directing this at me, when it was in response to my post which was on the same topic you were talking about... 

Bottom line is, I agree with you that no one should look at personality theory as a way to say "Yep, that's me, it's all hopeless"... in fact that's the exact opposite reason of why I was trying to understand this from a potentially personality-theory-related perspective. ....aaaannywaaaay.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

arkigos said:


> If this is worth anything... I had a conversation on a similar vein with an INFP friend... as he talked about how he makes hard decisions. He said that the thinks about every possible outcome and processes them all based on whether they will achieve, in the frankest and most honest terms, the ultimate goal. Usually, the ultimate goal is some nuanced moral imperative.
> 
> He said that he will not act until he has satisfied himself on every possible scenario, and chosen 'the best one'... the one with the least 'collateral damage' that also will unerringly achieve the imperative. He said that it is almost mind-breaking if the scenario doesn't play out correctly, as he was convinced he'd thought of everything. This scenario, he says, would likely lead to rash action on his part, and a lot of mistakes, as he is unable to act on the fly very well (which is why he does initial endless rumination to begin with), but ideally he will just go back to square one.
> 
> ...


This was actually very interesting to read and think about. I can definitely see how Si and Te might play a big part in this as well, which I hadn't even though of before since I don't always as readily understand how I use those functions.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

KraChZiMan said:


> I can't be blamed when people like you take me out of context and say that I was being intentionally offensive. In that case, it becomes your interpretation of what I said, not what I actually wanted to say.


There was nothing taken out of context. What you wrote is written right there, and it's extremely difficult to interpret any other way than it being offensive with you implying that spectralsparrow has a psychological illness and that she's trying to justify her behavior by using cognitive type as a crutch. That's how it came off as, intention or not. Furthermore, I wasn't the only one who interpreted it this way but she did, and so did ferroquinologist. If three people interpret the same action as offensive, then it's likely that it was in fact pretty darn offensive. Intention or not. What pisses me off is the fact that you don't bother to apologize and _then_ explain you didn't mean it that way, but instead you just try to keep saying "no no I didn't mean it at all I meant this" without even addressing the original concern even though it's been quite thoroughly explained to you why it's offensive. 



> But it's always good to see particular users following me around in every single thread I post with an intention of antagonizing me. It helps me to weed out the people who's opinion I can't take seriously.


Perhaps if you actually thought through what you posted and made sure the actual intention you had in mind came across instead of something else, people (aka I) wouldn't nitpick so much on it. And for your information, I don't follow you around. I just so happened to have an interest in this particular subforum you too happened to post in, and I also just so happened to more often than not simply disagree with what you write.


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

spectralsparrow said:


> I don't know... I still don't see how anything I said wasn't just addressing something you originally said... I also don't see how I was supposed to realize that you weren't directing this at me, when it was in response to my post which was on the same topic you were talking about...
> 
> Bottom line is, I agree with you that no one should look at personality theory as a way to say "Yep, that's me, it's all hopeless"... in fact that's the exact opposite reason of why I was trying to understand this from a potentially personality-theory-related perspective. ....aaaannywaaaay.





ephemereality said:


> There was nothing taken out of context. What you wrote is written right there, and it's extremely difficult to interpret any other way than it being offensive with you implying that spectralsparrow has a psychological illness and that she's trying to justify her behavior by using cognitive type as a crutch. That's how it came off as, intention or not. Furthermore, I wasn't the only one who interpreted it this way but she did, and so did ferroquinologist. If three people interpret the same action as offensive, then it's likely that it was in fact pretty darn offensive. Intention or not. What pisses me off is the fact that you don't bother to apologize and _then_ explain you didn't mean it that way, but instead you just try to keep saying "no no I didn't mean it at all I meant this" without even addressing the original concern even though it's been quite thoroughly explained to you why it's offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if you actually thought through what you posted and made sure the actual intention you had in mind came across instead of something else, people (aka I) wouldn't nitpick so much on it. And for your information, I don't follow you around. I just so happened to have an interest in this particular subforum you too happened to post in, and I also just so happened to more often than not simply disagree with what you write.



I can't believe you guys. I wrote something that generally goes for immature FiNe users, and suddenly, I have to start apologizing for the particular offended INFP. 

Of course I don't feel the need to apologize. My whole first post was written in a somewhat sarcastic tone, targeted against those who use too much MBTI concepts to describe their own character flaws. 

Apologizing only makes sense if targeting the user SpectralSparrow was my intention. Or even targeting people like SpectralSparrow, but it was not my intention by a long shot. 

Yeah, I see I said something about mental diseases which can be offensive, but you know what? People who handle MBTI concepts like that should probably NEED to be diagnosed. "I am INFP and indecisive" sounds much less believable than "I have bipolar and I'm indecisive". They would benefit from having a mental condition, instead of bringing that stuff to PerC and ruining this community by disguising it as MBTI-related. 

For example, I hear this "INFP's have common tendency to commit a suicide and be depressed", "ESFP's are nymphomaniacs" and "all INTP's are schizoids. Their Fe is inferior, so it makes sense, right?" It's that stuff nobody needs to hear anymore.

And for the last time,* 
I DON'T MEAN PPL LIKE SPECTRALSPARROW, I MEAN PEOPLE WHO DO THAT STUFF!!
*
See? Now it's written in red, bold and in caps-lock. :happy:


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

KraChZiMan said:


> I can't believe you guys. I wrote something that generally goes for immature FiNe users, and suddenly, I have to start apologizing for the particular offended INFP.
> 
> Of course I don't feel the need to apologize. My whole first post was written in a somewhat sarcastic tone, targeted against those who use too much MBTI concepts to describe their own character flaws.
> 
> ...


The thing is, I have known 5 xNFPs very well in my life. Enough that I'd call them very close friends and that I was able to observe them at length. I noticed something about each of them that I am certain relates to their inferior/tertiary Si and Te. That is, they get 'stuck', usually on Ne and Fi things that beset them terribly. As a perfect example, since I come from a very religious culture, the religion in particular is a good example of this. 

They get these... what I call 'moral imperatives', for lack of a better term, in their head and it is like concrete just hardening in their brain and there is no amount of arguing or appeal or anything that will break it out of there. They become honorary ISTJs, of the worst sort, when some moral imperative strikes them. A sort of procedural lockdown comes over them - a madness - that compels them to irrationally see some procedural thing to the end without the ability to look or think around it. 

Above and beyond this I have constantly observed that any classic Si/Te situation causes some version of this for them. They seize up and fall into a ... well, like an ISTJ gone mad. As an example, I am from Utah, Mormon culture, and I know an INFP who was compelled to go on a proselyting 'mission'. Most people with his disposition would weasel out of it, or just go and kinda slack off, or blow off the more serious aspects of it and try to enjoy it or 'get into it'. It doesn't work like that for xNFP. No chance. 

They will get stuck, rather terribly, between a moral imperative and procedural shutdown. That is precisely what happened. He could not reconcile the ethical/moral/personal aspects of this... went into crisis and spent 2 years of his life as a procedural zombie. Vomiting regularly, unable to think, unable to act, etc, in what one might characterize as a 'loop'. 2 years! I witnessed it, and having done the same proselyting service myself, I know it isn't typical and I know that all the xNFPs I have seen go through this compelled service have spun out on it and it has been devastating to them - and, importantly, all in that particular way. Highly internalized moral/procedural imperative --> shutdown, seizing up, 'looping', depression, etc.... all of a distinctly 'inferior' quality.

I wouldn't characterize INFP as having a "common tendency to commit a suicide and be depressed", but I would recognize and be willing to explore the nature of their cognition to the point where it could be anticipated and expressed the sort of psychological troubles they might have as a result of their type. 

It's fair to get after people for doing it wrong, but that doesn't mean scrap it or just say "it's just a mental illness". Could you imagine saying that to the INFP in my example. Dear God, could you imagine? If someone would have gone that route with him, that 'loop' - that lockdown - would have only intensified and greater harm would have been done. When the only thing in the world that people needed to say or understand in that situation was that he was an INFP - a raw nerve in situations like that - and it might have helped.

So, are INFPs more prone to suicide? In certain situations, absolutely. Si screams that there is nothing that can be done. That is what Si does. In 'low order' this can get nasty. I don't know that this translates into higher suicide statistics for INFPs than some other types, or any other type, and that the label is probably both inaccurate and counterproductive.... 

...but for the love of <insert deity here> don't call it mental illness. 

Indecisive because they are bipolar? Are you joking? You have no idea what you are talking about on that one. In the few cases of actual bipolar I have seen, they actually tend to be quite decisive. With terrible results. Either way, bipolar has nothing to do with how decisive or indecisive someone is. In most cases, for example, the person will be in a state for days weeks or months. The idea that they switch back and forth and are thus 'indecisive' which wouldn't happen even if they did because that is not even what happens... is absurd. It's beyond absurd on the whole. You probably just threw that off-the-cuff so I won't rake you over the coals anymore about it. I just wanted to be clear and thorough.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

KraChZiMan said:


> I can't believe you guys. I wrote something that generally goes for immature FiNe users, and suddenly, I have to start apologizing for the particular offended INFP.
> 
> Of course I don't feel the need to apologize. My whole first post was written in a somewhat sarcastic tone, targeted against those who use too much MBTI concepts to describe their own character flaws.
> 
> ...


Look, I'd be more than willing to let this go, personally, since I am *not* in fact offended (I was slightly hurt at first, but got over it pretty quickly). Especially at this point, where it's just ridiculous and kind of funny.

But, this is just getting increasingly absurd. WHY, in the world, would *anyone* post a reply directly addressing the content of a post by paraphrasing it (albeit missing the point in the process), arguing with your interpretation of what you just paraphrased, accusing the paraphrased interpretation of being [some insulting adjective or another], and suggesting (insensitively, at best) an alternative route for finding answers to the question.. AND ASSUME THAT EVERYONE WOULD KNOW that you happened to be talking about some OTHER, unnamed group of people who just happened to hold similar questions as the OP?

If someone posted something about liking oranges and feeling healthier when they ate more oranges, and you were like.... 

"ugh, sure, you can SAY you're like s00000 much healthier now, and think you're SuChhH an ENliGhTenEd FruIt Eater~~, but we all know that nutrition is more complex than that! You're not going to find answers to all your childish and petty dietary concerns in the fruit bowl, perhaps a charlatan with a nutritionist certificate can break this down for you a little better"

...

WHY WOULD ANYONE assume you meant *all those other* people who liked oranges, but certainly *not* the OP who just posted on the same exact topic? 

You're not making any sense.

And even on the off-chance that you really weren't addressing anyone in particular.... it's like.... If multiple people told me I'd said something insensitive, it would give at least me pause. I'd at least consider why. Also, you clearly think *some* people engage in this disapproved behaviour, whether I'm included or not in that group or not. Do you really think the sort of thing you said in your reply is going to actually help anyone who might need to hear another perspective? It sounded a lot more like shaming, to me, which will usually cause people to close down. 

*Shrug* I don't know why I'm still bothering with this - you're obviously only interested in backtracking and this is not going to go anywhere. I appreciate all the insight others have had on this topic, as well as the posts from people letting me know that I'm not crazy or alone in interpreting your responses like I did. I'm really sorry this became derailed so badly. I plan to respond to some of the more relevant replies when I have more time


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## Azelll (Jan 19, 2011)

spectralsparrow said:


> I want to see if anyone else relates to this.
> 
> I'm Fi-dominant and I have a VERY difficult time making decisions if there is any substantial emotional consideration to it. Like, how it's going to make me feel is The Thing. I grapple with it forever, considering all the different possible scenarios, to see which one "feels" the most right/best. And I get sucked into EVERY SINGLE POSSIBILITY, each one "feeling" so real and important. And even if I go with the choice that will make me feel worse in the short term, it's because I think it will make me feel better in the long term.
> 
> ...


i feel this way all the time .... generally its why i gave up on trying to make decisions on my own and I ask for others opinions before I make a decision now ........ however would like to rely on myself for this but since I have so much issue figuring things out alone I have to outsource .... often find myself resorting to asking people who are Te dominate lol wonder whats that about


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## KraChZiMan (Mar 23, 2013)

spectralsparrow said:


> Look, I'd be more than willing to let this go, personally, since I am *not* in fact offended (I was slightly hurt at first, but got over it pretty quickly). Especially at this point, where it's just ridiculous and kind of funny.
> 
> But, this is just getting increasingly absurd. WHY, in the world, would *anyone* post a reply directly addressing the content of a post by paraphrasing it (albeit missing the point in the process), arguing with your interpretation of what you just paraphrased, accusing the paraphrased interpretation of being [some insulting adjective or another], and suggesting (insensitively, at best) an alternative route for finding answers to the question.. AND ASSUME THAT EVERYONE WOULD KNOW that you happened to be talking about some OTHER, unnamed group of people who just happened to hold similar questions as the OP?
> 
> ...


Your examples are actually pretty cool, really creative stuff! I like that one about the oranges roud:

Actually, whenever somebody replies to me like "YOU MOTHERFUCKER HOW DARE YA SPEAK LIKE DAT YOU DOUCHEBAG" or "YOU INSENSITIVE PRICK", my first response is to assume that this is not how a normal person behaves, and suddenly, I gain the moral high ground I didn't have before the outburst of angry replies. This moral high ground of course makes me much more confrontational, since now I see that this not about the argument anymore, but about how somebody just can't stand me personally. Emotional arguments are dangerous, because when emotions step into the game, logic retreats, comes back in the form of logical fallacies, and it becomes an open fight. If somebody goes just like "I wouldn't use these examples in this context, it's really offensive to people with mental disorders", I would almost immediately realize that I made a mistake.

I know that I sometimes go overboard with my examples, and I am really sorry for that, because the main weight in my posts is never on the examples, but on the main point. Examples are for illustration. I wish you all the best for your struggles and hope that you'll find a way to cope with these issues! :happy:



arkigos said:


> The thing is, I have known 5 xNFPs very well in my life. Enough that I'd call them very close friends and that I was able to observe them at length. I noticed something about each of them that I am certain relates to their inferior/tertiary Si and Te. That is, they get 'stuck', usually on Ne and Fi things that beset them terribly. As a perfect example, since I come from a very religious culture, the religion in particular is a good example of this.
> 
> They get these... what I call 'moral imperatives', for lack of a better term, in their head and it is like concrete just hardening in their brain and there is no amount of arguing or appeal or anything that will break it out of there. They become honorary ISTJs, of the worst sort, when some moral imperative strikes them. A sort of procedural lockdown comes over them - a madness - that compels them to irrationally see some procedural thing to the end without the ability to look or think around it.
> 
> ...


About emotional zombie stuff and being mentally paralysed... I believe relates much to the unhealthy 4w5 description according to the enneagram, but it's all really good stuff, even in the context of INFP's, and I definitely learned something from your post.

Although, half of the stuff you're counting up were just some stupid stereotypes that I whole heartedly can't agree upon myself. It was brought up to illustrate, again, how there are some unreasonable connections (like how each MBTI type has strong exposure to a certain mental illnesses) being made, merely because of really poor type portrait articles and stereotypes.

I was previously in another threads going really overboard about how I am anti-typist and against stereotypes... why would it make sense that I would seriously believe in trivializing mental disorders and how INFP's are suicidal maniacs?

Indecisive and bipolar connection can apply in a larger scale, such as how in the manic episode, the person can wish to accomplish a goal that they would ditch with extreme prejudice while in depressive cycle.

Anyway, every time somebody says that INFP's are supposed to fight for causes and be really moral, I can't relate to it, because I have learned in life that most situations are beyond saving. I used to be that kid too who was hypersensitive to criticism and pondering so much upon why some people can't stand me, and it was liberating to learn that most people who act confrontational and pissed off (especially applies on Beta quadra people) are not even serious about it, and even if they are serious, it's only because they see one side of the coin, the one that is not even in my field of view. 

It's the exact thing these hardcorely morally righteous INFP's don't understand: most of the people who appear serious don't have a clue of what they are talking about. If somebody says you are rude, and you bring out 10 reasons while you're not, you may think you've won, but actually just became a laughing stock, because they were testing you. Somebody who knows they are not rude can never be phased by accusations they know that are baseless. I have seen something similar being a phenomenon in PerC: the super user with shiny letters, flashy signature and assertive style is automatically an authority on MBTI matters, and partly because you can never objectively test what kind of knowledge is correct and what is not. Perhaps even Jung didn't have a a clue, he was just really certain that his theories can be very beneficial in assessing people's personalities and behaviours, but there is no way even HE could know, how the human brain actually works. Bottom line being, whatever you visualize clearly and understand the concept of, IS MADE to become an objective fact by your own mind, even though there are not many things in the universe that you can objectively state, and any morally hardass INFP must realize that universal morals do not exist. Understanding this is an excellent milestone to becoming a mature, sober-thinking human being.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

KraChZiMan said:


> Indecisive and bipolar connection can apply in a larger scale, such as how in the manic episode, the person can wish to accomplish a goal that they would ditch with extreme prejudice while in depressive cycle.
> 
> Anyway, every time somebody says that INFP's are supposed to fight for causes and be really moral, I can't relate to it, because I have learned in life that most situations are beyond saving.


1) On the subject of bipolar: perhaps inconsistent is a better term? ...though I would be quick with the caveat that while bipolars might be at times terribly inconsistent, inconsistent people needn't be bipolar.

2) On the subject of moralistic 'causy' INFPs: I have never met one. I think that stuff is almost exclusively an Fe thing. I think 'moralistic' and 'causy' are terms I'd use in an Fe description. The INFP in my example is 0% moralistic and only causy about things that he has a personal stake in.. and even then he comes across more of a Te polemic/negotiator than anything remotely preachy. No fluff. No, 'think of the children' stuff, or demonizing or guilt trips or any of that. That is all Fe. 

INFP 'crusading' is reserved and frank. Don Henley with the Walden Wood project being a perfect example. It comes across very Te, is oriented to a personal stake/interest, (also, nostalgic and past oriented) and is probably draining for him to do even this:

Don Henley - My Charity

If someone was raking me over the coals with consensus-driven moralizing... my very first thought would be to question if they were an INFP at all.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

arkigos said:


> 1) On the subject of bipolar: perhaps inconsistent is a better term? ...though I would be quick with the caveat that while bipolars might be at times terribly inconsistent, inconsistent people needn't be bipolar.
> 
> 2) On the subject of moralistic 'causy' INFPs: I have never met one. I think that stuff is almost exclusively an Fe thing. I think 'moralistic' and 'causy' are terms I'd use in an Fe description. The INFP in my example is 0% moralistic and only causy about things that he has a personal stake in.. and even then he comes across more of a Te polemic/negotiator than anything remotely preachy. No fluff. No, 'think of the children' stuff, or demonizing or guilt trips or any of that. That is all Fe.
> 
> ...


Fi can guilt trip for sure, but then it's about "how could you ignore my feels/make me feel this way" rather than person X's feels. Linkin Park is always so appriopriately Fi:






This is probably as righteous or crusader-like Fi would ever become I suppose, emphasizing and stressing what they think is the right thing regardless of group consensus.

Not dominant (I think Linkin Park is the only Fi dom band I listen to) but at least auxiliary/tertiary?:







* *




Get down on your knees and feed the illusion
Get down on your knees and prolong the delusion
Superstition is the religion of the feeble mind
Liberty and justice, the illusions of mankind

A dogmatic expression in every direction
There is no redemption in divine intervention
The world is a disease that cannot be cured
The truth is a voice that cannot be heard

Jihad, the twisted hands of faith
Jihad, in the name of hate
Jihad, the twisted hands of faith
Jihad, in the name of hate

Hate is the solution to life's evolution
Love is a high that you cannot sustain
For each age is a dream that is dying
And freedom is a whore that we love to adore

Jihad, to be touched by hands of God
Jihad, to be touched by hands of God

Hate is the solution to life's evolution
Love is a high that you cannot sustain
For each age is a dream that is dying
And freedom is a whore that we love to adore

Jihad, to be touched by hands of God
Jihad, to be touched by hands of God

A dogmatic expression in every direction
There is no redemption in divine intervention
The world is a disease that cannot be cured
The truth is a voice that cannot be heard










* *




Shut your fucking mouth.
You don't know a single thing about me.
So I heard what you said when he walked away.
Don't you think I can add up the numbers.
It's a sour taste.
A knowledge I wish I would never have gained.
So you think you could match me?
Well these are the things I see.

A perfect body. A twisted mind.
Starvation and loathing.
We fuck 'til it bleeds.
Scratch claw and scream.

'Til it feels like I'm almost alive...
/ These are the words to justify / All against all

I'm so sick and tired of it. Treat me like meat.
Tear me to pieces and feed the dogs.
A thousand polite tiny lies
and I memorized every single one of them.
Did you think for a second I'd give you a taste -
well I'm sorry to say
You could turn yourself inside out - I'd still walk away.

Repeat chorus

Broken promises
Like ashes through my fingers
It eats away my senses and my soul
I wither - perhaps I said too much?
I just want somebody I can trust









Also, Youtube I fucking hate you.


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## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@ephemereality - Yes, on considering it, I've been guilt tripped by Fi types before... though I do think they do shy away from the socialized or co-dependent aspect of it. If they feel something is right, and you are a necessary piece to ensuring that right thing, I think they'd be more rigid than the relatively objective Fe on the subject. Fe says, 'things happen, assess things as they come' - Fi says, 'it should have been right and it wasn't' and would sort of exude that. I get that a lot from my brother (ESFP) on the subject of visiting, say, my aunt that we never see. If I decide to slack it off, the guy just bleeds that rigid Fi. It is wrong to him and while he does not come anywhere close to preaching or crusading or pleading, his judgment on the subject is deep and unrelenting. 

"Alright, whatever. We are gonna go hang out with them and you can do... whatever. See ya." 

...and that's it. It would probably put him into a very tight and quiet mood. He'd probably blow me off for a while until he processed it and then he'd come to terms with it however, and find a way to deal with me ... or not, depending on how far my choices pushed his moral sense. Luckily, I usually cave after that one sentence. Guilt trip successful, though it was more a statement, or an implicit statement of the 'brass tacks' morality of the situation.

As an aside, what type do you think Linkin Park (by that I mean the songwriter) is?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

arkigos said:


> @ephemereality - Yes, on considering it, I've been guilt tripped by Fi types before... though I do think they do shy away from the socialized or co-dependent aspect of it. If they feel something is right, and you are a necessary piece to ensuring that right thing, I think they'd be more rigid than the relatively objective Fe on the subject. Fe says, 'things happen, assess things as they come' - Fi says, 'it should have been right and it wasn't' and would sort of exude that. I get that a lot from my brother (ESFP) on the subject of visiting, say, my aunt that we never see. If I decide to slack it off, the guy just bleeds that rigid Fi. It is wrong to him and while he does not come anywhere close to preaching or crusading or pleading, his judgment on the subject is deep and unrelenting.
> 
> "Alright, whatever. We are gonna go hang out with them and you can do... whatever. See ya."
> 
> ...


Well, yes, in that sense. Just a different kind of guilt tripping. Fe guilt tripping just pisses me off for example. My ESFJ grandmother tries that once in a while on me (I think she knows by now it doesn't work though), but if she would change the context and make me aware that it's actually about her instead of her projecting her needs on me in this very insidious reverse way, I might be more sympathetic at least. 

Fi doms are worse than Fi aux though. They can be nigh to impossible to please once they have set their standard of how something should be. It grates on my brain too to be honest. That's just Fi gone too far and I love Fi but I don't like stuck-up-in-own-ass Fi. 

As for Linkin Park, I would likely lean more closely to ISFP than I would INFP, though I think Mike and Chester write the lyrics together but I've seen the argument that they are identical types a lot and it might be possible. Never researched it. I just know for a fact that their lyrics are really darn Fi and I can randomly pick any song from their discography and it'll bleed Fi pretty much, though they mellowed a lot post their first two albums in my opinion. Not as righteous or how to put it.


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## Dragheart Luard (May 13, 2013)

ephemereality said:


> Fi doms are worse than Fi aux though. They can be nigh to impossible to please once they have set their standard of how something should be. It grates on my brain too to be honest. That's just Fi gone too far and I love Fi but I don't like stuck-up-in-own-ass Fi.


I've verified this personally, and the worst part is to deal with an unhealthy Fi-dom. It's not just that the Fi dom standards are ridiculous at times, but the combo of Te-Si of INFPs grates my nerves to the point that I don't want to deal with that crap. I've also been guilt tripped by my mom, and trust me that I get pissed off on those moments, specially when she tries to pressure me to do shit that I don't want to do.

Doesn't mean that I dislike all INFPs, just that my mom can be an asspain and those issues can be explained by her cognition.


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