# Reincarnation?



## Elvira (Dec 1, 2011)

Hi there, PC people  

How many of you out there believe in reincarnation? Some people say they can recall past lives or past experiences. I've been pretty skeptical, but it would be interesting to hear your experiences.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

For a while I thought there could be something to reincarnation myth. I mean, lots of stuff on our earth goes around in circles. So why not human life. Unfortunately, people like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins are trying to convince the world that our consciousness, our being-alive could be based in our biological hard wiring. Our death would mean the definite end of us. If brain research one day proves this, all notions of an afterlife including heaven and hell and reincarnation become myths and without any substance.

As for experiencing past experiences, I have read something on how newborns come equipped with our (evolutionary) past. They instinctively know to start sucking for food for instance. Reincarnation has little to do with that, I think. More sophisticated memories may not be part of this evolutionary survival packet, but before starting to believe in something extraordinary - such as reincarnation, I'd like to see some extraordinary evidence.

I mean, when we experience something we think is from a past life, who says that's true?


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## cue5c (Oct 12, 2011)

If reincarnation is real, we've most likely already gone through it. Do you remember anything before? Chances are you don't. That means if reincarnation is real, there was a definite end to whoever "you" were before you were you. Of course, if it doesn't matter now it won't matter then, so it's not something to worry about.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

I believe in reincarnation. If you're curious, there's a really cool book called *Many Lives, Many Masters* by Dr Brian Weiss, in which he talks about past life regression therapy. I'm not saying the book is fact, but it was a fun read and actually affirmed some beliefs I'd already had about reincarnation. 

http://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Masters-Prominent-Psychiatrist/dp/0671657860


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## Uncouth Angel (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't believe in reincarnation, but that's because I'm a Christian and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of my beliefs. However, I don't think it's an incoherent belief in and of itself. If I were Hindu or Buddhist, I wouldn't have much difficulty accepting it, but it's one of those beliefs you would have to accept on faith after you've already accepted the central tenants of the respective religion that espouses it. There's no evidence for reincarnation, of course, but no evidence could possibly suffice either.

Here is an interesting question to think about: If reincarnation is true, then how do we account for the rising human population in recent times? Is it evidence that humanity is evolving toward the greater good, if extra billions of people were presumably once animals or some other form, and if so, how?


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## Faust (Jul 25, 2012)

In a chemical sense, yes. Chemical recycling and whatnot; the living physical being which gives rise to and sustains your consciousness will one day become numerous other living beings and consciousnesses (most likely some lovely saprotrophs at first!). 

However, the abstractions and consciousnesses which we know as you I are tied to the complex biochemical systems of life. Once those systems breakdown there really isn't anyway in which consciousness can be sustained or continued. Enjoy your existence whilst you still can.


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

At this point of my life...reincarnation is not a matter of believe, it is a fact for me. Like all facts, it doesn't matter if you believe in the process for it to happen. If you decided to take the time to do the research, have an skeptic yet open mind...you will arrive at the same conclusion or at least considered it to be possible.

What did you did two years ago on this day?...probably can't remember...now try a few hundred years ago. As long as you identified yourself with a body and the mind...reincarnation doesn't make sense from a biological point. In science there exist something called the hard problem of consciousness. Science doesn't really know where you are at this moment. I am not talking about the body/mind...I am talking about the part of you that is processing and reading these words. The part of you that feels and reflect about. The part that causes you to be self-aware of this moment. If you said you are your brain..think again. The brain is just a receptor and transmitter of information. It is not the main place for the storage of memories...so if not in the brain..where do your memories are keep?. There have been cases of people without almost any brain tissue that have live normal life..here is an example:

Tiny brain no obstacle to French civil servant | Reuters

Once you realized and internalize this so many called paradox are understand. For example remote viewing, that is the act of seeking impressions about a distant or unseen target using extra-sensory perception. It has been proven over and over again. People receive information outside their physical senses. If you are lock in the mind/body dichotomy it seems impossible yet it happens.

My research on reincarnation started with a conversation I had with a teacher of mine that in one of her classes said...that she was a catholic but believe in reincarnation. I asked her the reason behind that statement. She told me the story of her daughter. Her daughter had a very unusual habit. Every time she go to a place with her, her daughter was always seeking for a place to hide. There was no rational explanation for that kind of behavior so she decided to do a regression. She found that her daughter was in a past life a Jew that live in times of the second world war. If you remember a bit of history...Jews very persecute by Germans and had to hide to avoid capture. Sometimes some of your unusual habits and interest are relate to a past life.

I "remember" one of my past lives and it have helped me to understand some aspects of myself. For example I have a very unusual interest in sex and romantic relationships as a subject of study. I also see sex as sacred but not in a religious way. In a past life I was a priestess of a fertility Babylonian Goddess know as Ishtar. Religion in the past where fertility/mother figure oriented and sex was view as a way of healing the body/mind and soul. Sometimes knowing where you have been, helps you to understand better where you are in the present.

I could be wrong but so far is the theory that makes most sense to me after extensive pondering about the subject and fit with some of the unusual experiences I had through the years. I don't want to change opinions or to convert people...I enjoy helping people think outside of the box and push their boundaries...to see things under a new light. In the bigger picture of things, it really doesn't matter...just enjoy life.


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## zwanglos (Jan 13, 2010)

I believe it pretty likely.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

What exactly would be reincarnated? Our personality? Mind? Beliefs? Soul? Physical imperfections? If so, then we should be born with the same capabilities as the one before us--and eventually, after many generations, we should already be super-people will of those experiences stored inside of us. 

But we aren't. So, if that isn't the case, then what exactly is the point of reincarnation?


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

@Agape

Extensive pondering, your own experiences and those of one of your teachers aren't enough in my book to confirm or prove something to be factual. As for your unusual interest in sex and romantic relationships - in what way is that unusual?

I struggle with what you say about our brains as well. I haven't done any of the research myself of course, but as far as I know, our brain does play an important part in creating and storing memories.

More importantly however, could you explain what reincarnation is to you and how it works? What happens when we die (do we in fact die?) and what part of us gets transferred? Is there a cosmic waiting room or do people have to die and be born (again) at the same time? Is reincarnation just for humans, or do animals live in circles too? To what end do we reincarnate?

I know I ask a lot of questions, feel free to pick whatever you feel like responding to.


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## Coldspot (Nov 7, 2011)

I don't really believe in reincarnation. I like to think that "past lives" are us connecting to an essence of someone in the past who has the same kind of personality/values (for lack of a better term).


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## OldManRivers (Mar 22, 2012)

The exponitial growth of population means that there are more people alive than dead - so where do all those lives come from? 
But, irrationality has never been a barrier to belief. I do not believe in reincarnation. I would not bother trying to convince anyone otherwise. Irrational beliefs are refractory.


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## zwanglos (Jan 13, 2010)

Crono91 said:


> What exactly would be reincarnated? Our personality? Mind? Beliefs? Soul? Physical imperfections? If so, then we should be born with the same capabilities as the one before us--and eventually, after many generations, we should already be super-people will of those experiences stored inside of us.
> 
> But we aren't. So, if that isn't the case, then what exactly is the point of reincarnation?


Previous German teachers of mine said I must have been a German in a previous lifetime... previous Chinese teachers said I must have been Chinese... based on my abilities with both languages. (Note: I don't intend for this anecdote to serve as 'proof' for anything, I'm just considering that the concept may exist)

Though I think you're looking at the idea through the wrong lens, or at least not the same lens that believers of reincarnation look at the notion through; you question the idea because you can't see how reincarnation benefits our personal bodies here in this life. What if, instead, the purpose of multiple lives - each vastly different from the others - was to enrich your soul, in whatever it is that constitutes an afterlife?

I think it comes down to basic spiritual vision, here: are you a body that has a soul, or a soul that has a body?

As for population growth, one interesting religious theory I've seen that pertains to that is 'NPC theory,' touted by Theodore Beale, which basically explains that there are quite a few people with no souls, that they are simply 'non-player characters' that serve a singular function in our world so that those with souls can continue to mature and grow.


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

zwanglos said:


> Previous German teachers of mine said I must have been a German in a previous lifetime... previous Chinese teachers said I must have been Chinese... based on my abilities with both languages.
> 
> Though I think you're looking at the idea through the wrong lens, or at least not the same lens that believers of reincarnation look at the notion through; you question the idea because you can't see how reincarnation benefits our personal bodies here in this life. What if, instead, the purpose of multiple lives - each vastly different from the others - was to enrich your soul, in whatever it is that constitutes an afterlife?
> 
> I think it comes down to basic spiritual vision, here: are you a body that has a soul, or a soul that has a body?


So, if you are being reincarnated over and over, how do you get to your afterlife?


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## zwanglos (Jan 13, 2010)

Crono91 said:


> So, if you are being reincarnated over and over, how do you get to your afterlife?


I'm not terribly well versed in Buddhist thought, though my basic understanding of their religion is that one reaches their ideal of an afterlife once the soul has matured well enough throughout multiple lifetimes. Thus, you have people who've lived 10 lifetimes -- and seem to possess an almost otherworldly personal harmony with all things - walking alongside those who are living their first human lifetime.

As for me: I should preface my statements by saying that I'm personally somewhere between the ideas of Christianity and spiritualism (_i.e._ basic yet undefined/vague belief about souls, afterlives, etc.). Anyway, I think it possible that whatever the afterlife is, is our native state; our forays into life are temporary journeys. After death, returning to the afterlife would be akin to removing a glove from your hand.


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## Faust (Jul 25, 2012)

Modern neuroscience cannot explain the workings of our consciousness. It is not however in any way reasonable to fill in that knowledge gap with whatever we would like to believe is true.

Just because your teachers said that something is the case doesn't make it so. How does being an instinctive learner of Chinese and German necessitate or provide evidence for being Chinese or German in some previous existence? Surely that being the result of intelligence combined with an innate proficiency for language is a more rational and less assumptious explanation? Occam's razor and whatnot. It wouldn't be logical for me to believe that that my natural skill as a pianist is the result of me having been Chopin in a previous life... 

Furthermore the notion that animals - humans included - have some sort of life giving animus is incredibly outdated and dismissed by modern science because it is not reasonable or empirical, despite innumerable uncredible anecdotes for reincarnation. However, if you propose a hypothesis for the mechanism by which reincarnation operates we will happily and open-mindedly entertain and test it and, should it hold true I will gladly embrace the idea.


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## illegal (Jul 27, 2012)

My mother was a very eccentric individual for the Bible belt, and so I grew up believing in reincarnation. 

I woke up from a vivid dream when I was 16 years old, sobbing. I can count the number of nightmares I've had in life on one hand. This was different. In my dream, I was an emaciated, naked woman. My hair was brown and messy, piled on my head in a bun. I held the emaciated, nude, and dead body of a small boy, around 5 years old looked to be, and I knew it was my son. 

I was wailing, sobbing...I had never felt grief so strongly as I did then.

I was on my knees as I cradled him to me, on dirty white and broken tiles. There was sunlight streaming down from a small window towards the ceiling. The walls were the same white tiles of the floor. It almost seemed like a huge shower stall.

I awoke, and couldn't stop crying for an hour. I believe that this was a memory from another lifetime. I've never experienced anything like it before, or in the 7 years since.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

OldManRivers said:


> The exponitial growth of population means that there are more people alive than dead - so where do all those lives come from?


At this page here, I found that as of 2011, approximately 108 billion people in total have been born into this world so far, 6.5 percent of which is currently alive. So there are more dead people than there are live ones. Still, the growth of this world's population does prompt us with the problem where the surplus comes from.


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## Faust (Jul 25, 2012)

To play devil's advocate for a moment...

Reincarnation would assume that there are indeed a concrete number of living beings in existence at all times, however this doesn't specify what form these beings adopt - human, fox, rabbit... - and so one could infer and explain that the exponential growth of the human population is the result of a widespread transcendence of 'lower' creatures to - *facetiously* the obviously superior - human existence.

But then again just thinking about it that would result in a massive ecological disaster. I'm sorry but the whole idea of reincarnation just seems rather silly...


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## Damali Hart (Jun 4, 2012)

Crono91 said:


> So, if you are being reincarnated over and over, how do you get to your afterlife?


Perhaps there is no afterlife. Who has died and lived to tell the tale?


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## Antipode (Jul 8, 2012)

It kind of sucks if your previous self was a very nice person who did everything right, but then your new self is very mean and does everything wrong, so when you die you don't go to a good afterlife :/ That'd make me mad haha.


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## Enkidu (Apr 19, 2010)

I've read in various sources that infants born with large birthmarks are more likely to recall their previous lives. The reason for this is actually a bit surprising. If a newborn has a large birthmark, this is indicative of the way the person they previously were had died. Somehow, the trauma (and wound) from another life carries over with the rebirth of the soul. Accounts of young children recalling strange, somehow disconnected memories of someone else's life are quite common and well-documented in southeastern Asia i.e. Burma and Myanmar, specifically. Now, there is no real consensus on what a 'soul' is in particular, whether it fragments at death, is made up of many component pieces (as in the Egyptian or Inuit mythos), is traceable biologically, or is a pan-species phenomenon including all life, plants included. 

I was not raised with the tradition myself, but I am very curious about recent Western research on the subject. Until the mind is more completely mapped and explored, I will remain open-minded about reincarnation. It is clear that a unified theory of human cognition has not been formulated yet, thus I am immediately skeptical of heavy-handed scientific opinions on soul rebirth. The ontology of death and rebirth changes with every era, why not apply a little holism here? Surprises are always welcome.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

La Petite Sirène said:


> I believe in reincarnation. If you're curious, there's a really cool book called *Many Lives, Many Masters* by Dr Brian Weiss, in which he talks about past life regression therapy. I'm not saying the book is fact, but it was a fun read and actually affirmed some beliefs I'd already had about reincarnation.


Thanks for the tip, I might look into that Brian Weiss guy you mentioned. You say his work affirmed some of your preexisting beliefs. I do not get this. Wouldn't it be more just to only believe in something once reality offers some kind of cause for it? To me, your beliefs would be nothing more than fanciful make-believe without.


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

Bear987 said:


> Extensive pondering, your own experiences and those of one of your teachers aren't enough in my book to confirm or prove something to be factual. As for your unusual interest in sex and romantic relationships - in what way is that unusual?
> 
> I struggle with what you say about our brains as well. I haven't done any of the research myself of course, but as far as I know, our brain does play an important part in creating and storing memories.
> 
> ...



Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true...Buddha

I have always try to applied the advise on that quote to find the truth. I have understood that people see things as they are. If this forum was hosted on an Asian country like India , probably the majority will said that reincarnation is true...because that is what their parents and culture teach them since they were little kids. Because of this, is very difficulty to do impartial science...people sometimes tend to cherry pick the data that goes in favor of their hypothesis. Skeptics and believers alike.

These cases are a very strong suggestion of reincarnation. I said suggestion because the only way you could prove that reincarnation exist is that you experience it yourself or that you watch it happen. Science is a tool and like everything else has its limitation. For example: How you could replicate a reincarnation experience in a lab?.

1)-Cpt. Robert Snow Indianapolis P.D. Homicide Division







2)-James Leninger/ II world war pilot reincarnation?






3)-Paul and Mette Gauguin reincarnation?:






There was a psychologist called Helen Wambach that in the 60s decided to do a study to debunk reincarnation. She said that people who claimed to have lived prior lives were fake to her. She questioned 1088 white, middle subjects from California while they were under hypnosis. She recollected her data through workshops. The subjects were asked to regress to a former life. She asked who they where, where they live, to describe their status, gender, race, clothing, footwear, utensils, tools they used, their money, housing and dietary habits.

The data obtained was investigated to see if there was a correlation with historical facts. In all(1088) but 11 cases...the description were totally accurate. Here are some of the results:

-50.6 % of the past lives reported were male and 49.4 % were female -- this is exactly in accordance with biological fact. 
-The reported class or status was exactly the same proportion as the estimates of historians of the specific period of the former life. Contrary to popular belief most past lives are boring ;p.
-In general, this was approximately 10% upper class, 20-35% from the middle class and the remaining 55-70% from the lower class. Although the proportion of middle class was higher around 1000 BC, the proportion later dropped and increased again after 1700 AD. 
-The recall by subjects of clothing, footwear, type of food and utensils used was better than that in popular history books. She found over and over again that her subjects knew better than most historians -- when she went to obscure experts her subjects were invariably correct. 
-Between 60-77% of the ancient population lived at or below the poverty level. They wore home made clothes and lived in simple, even primitive, abodes. The majority were farmers who labored every day in the fields. None of the hypnotized individuals recalled being a famous historical figure. Those who recalled a high social position seemed highly dissatisfied with their lives, as if it was a burden to be alive. Those who recalled being a farmer or a member of a primitive tribe appeared to be content. 
-Their recollections were from different geographic areas and races during their prior life. Dr. Wambach divided them into several categories: Caucasians, Asians, Indians, Blacks and Middle Eastern descent. 
-Eating habits of people who lived around 500 B. C. were not that bad. Twenty percent of the subjects recalled that they ate poultry and sheep meat. However, between A.D. 25 to A.D. 1200, people's eating habits were rather poor. The subjects recalled that the food was tasteless. One young man said: "I will never bad-mouth McDonald's food". It is not surprising that those who recalled the best tasting food were those who remembered a prior life in China. 
-Among all the subjects, 62% died of old age and illness, 18% percent died violently during war, or some other manmade catastrophe and the remaining 20% died in accidents. Many of the prior lives ended during the two world wars, as well as civil wars in Asian countries. Thus, these people reincarnated shortly after they died. We will see more evidence for this in our next striking example.

After doing that study she didn't doubt no more of the possibility of reincarnation. Fantasy, fabricated memories or genetic memory could not account for the results she obtained. In the end she said that "I don't believe in reincarnation--I know it!.

Another case you should read about is the case of Shanti Devi from India...that's probably the most strong case for reincarnation that I am aware of...here is a link to it:

Before It's News | News | Reincarnation Fact: The Amazing Case Of Shanti Devi From India

The other thing that make me consider the possibility of reincarnation is how past life regression as a therapy is useful to treat phobias and ailments in some cases. Some people have strange phobias that after regression seem to have been born in a past life. What I find interesting is how this therapy leads to a rapid improvement of the mental health of the patient. Maybe it is a placebo effect in some cases....yet some people that went through regressions have another set of believes or are atheism and they are cure too of their phobias and most are believers after their experience.

There is also the issue of child prodigies and genius that from early ages have amazing abilities. Why do they have those abilities?. In some cases there are not environment influences that could nurture those gifts. Special brain chemistry could be the cause but why them?..what cause it in the first place?.

There has been cases that reincarnation cases have confirmed historical facts before they were know by the historian of that time. One of these cases was Dr. Arthur Guirdham and Mrs Smith..about a case of a possible past life of Mrs Smith as a Cathar in Tolouse France:

Why are we here ?: The dream research of Dr. Guirdham

Reincarnation could also be a possible explanation for some phenomenons like:
-Xenoglossia...people that speak in languages under regression that they don't know nor have been exposed before. In some cases there have been people speaking old languages that are not speak anymore in the world today. Maybe languages learned in a past life?.
-Transgender...people that feel that are born in the wrong body...maybe they were in a past life from a different genre and those memories resurface some how?
-Deja vu..In some cases you have the feeling of knowing a place or a particular person. Maybe you where there before in a past life?

Some of the alternative hypothesis to reincarnation that could explain these cases that I have read are these:

a)-Fabricated memory: Don't doubt that some "regressions" could be fabricated stories from the mind yet in some of the cases there are not a rational way of how some people knew about some things. In which there is no story of exposition. One of the researchers called Dr. Ian Stevenson...specifically picked young children like the James Leninger case to avoid some of the criticism of hypnosis that said that the hypnotist could supplant false memories.

b)-Genetic memory: Some people in regression remember past lives that are outside of their racial heritage..so this is not plausible for all cases.

c)-Collective unconscious: Sounds like science fiction ...if its possible yet I wonder why so specific and why this memory and not this.

d)-Possession: If you can believe in demons , think reincarnation is not that farfetched. In the most cases of possession I am familiar with, the individual is usually very perturbed(exorcism-like). Most people that remember past lives are like the average Joe in the street and from all backgrounds in live. 

My interest in sex and romantic relationship is unusual in the angle I explore it. I have study it from almost all viewpoints. The neuro-chemistry of our brains when we are in love, evolutionary sense of it, the origin of it, anthropological and sociological studies of it across the world..the religious/spiritual view of sex in the past and present. Now tell me that everyone do this .

To explain reincarnation you have to understand consciousness. Consciousness is information that is self-aware, self-modifying and that have free will to pursue these changes. Consciousness like everything else evolves. It does this through the interaction it have with others. I see life just as a simulation( there are model of realities that see the universe as a big hologram) that provides the environment for these interactions to occur. Reincarnation is a tool that consciousness uses to facilitate is growth process.

I cannot claim to know what happens exactly when one dies( we have to be there in the first place or had a NDE) but I have a very good idea after reading NDE( Near death experiences), books in between life regression, some religion believes and possible models of reality of physics. When you die you cross over. What you will experience will depend on the kind of growing you have achieve and the personal believes you had in the last life. If you are a christian probably you will see some being of light that is angel like...if you are an Hinduism you will see some Indian deity. Some people feel so guilty after they die that they believe that they go to hell but the hell is of their own creation. 

Have read that some people that believe that heaven is like a garden with nice house( kind of like the suburbs) usually stay there until they growth a bit more and are ready to move on. New consciousness are usually greeted by close friends and family members, others that are more old go straight to business. At that point usually there is an evaluation...a peer-view revision of your last life. After that is over you go back to your group...usually consciousness that you have share many lifetimes( as friends, family, spouses, advisors,etc) and that have a similar growth process that you. In there is up to you what you want to do.

I have read that animals have a group consciousness that became individualize as it have more experiences. Animals that people have as pets usually adopt the traits of their master. I read something that I find beautiful that with time...those animals that we treat as individual get separate from their group consciousness and become a single unit like humans are.

You probably have many question as I probably do. There is still so much that we don't know...yet I like to ponder about these things and have found that we live in a very beautiful system. Behind the apparently chaos of life, the universe is very organize.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

Agape said:


> These cases are a very strong suggestion of reincarnation. I said suggestion because the only way you could prove that reincarnation exist is that you experience it yourself or that you watch it happen. Science is a tool and like everything else has its limitation. For example: How you could replicate a reincarnation experience in a lab?


Thanks for elaborating. I cannot read your entire post in one go; or respond to it. I would like to post a quick reply to what you're saying here though - if you don't mind.

You say that science is a tool and that as such it has its limitations. Science itself is no tool however. It is an honest effort to make sense of the (physical) world; it is a desire to know things - to discover the truth. The way to find out whether something is true requires proper and valid tools. The scientific method is such a tool that is meant to provide truthful and valid evidence for believing anything.

When it comes to establish whether something is actually true, I would argue that science is the best tool around to produce valid evidence for anything. I reckon it is like when you want to hammer in a nail. Even though it is true that screwdrivers, hammers as well as pliers are tools, it speaks for itself that only one fits the bill - the others just won't do.

Furthermore, I get confused when you first seem to imply that science is not the right tool to establish whether reincarnation is actually happening, only to then claim that first hand experience or observation are better ways to discover the validity of reincarnation. You seem to miss the fact that first hand experience and observation are actually scientific tools!

I'll watch the videos in your post now.


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## iwontrememberthis (May 4, 2012)

I don't believe in reincarnation at all, and agree with everything Faust has suggested, but I just want get your perspective.

Robert Snow was obviously not born in 1917, the year Beckwith died, so what do you suppose happened to the "soul" as it was not attached to a human for quite a bit of time?


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

Bear987 said:


> To me, your beliefs would be nothing more than fanciful make-believe without.


Pretty much how I feel about religion.


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## Enkidu (Apr 19, 2010)

Agape said:


> a)-Fabricated memory: Don't doubt that some "regressions" could be fabricated stories from the mind yet in some of the cases there are not a rational way of how some people knew about some things. In which there is no story of exposition. One of the researchers called Dr. Ian Stevenson...specifically picked young children like the James Leninger case to avoid some of the criticism of hypnosis that said that the hypnotist could supplant false memories.
> 
> b)-Genetic memory: Some people in regression remember past lives that are outside of their racial heritage..so this is not plausible for all cases.
> 
> c)-Collective unconscious: Sounds like science fiction ...if its possible yet I wonder why so specific and why this memory and not this.


I've actually encountered the idea of 'genetic memory' most often in science fiction. Frank Herbert (in the _Dune_ series), Ursula K le Guin, Stanislaw Lem, and Roger Zelanzy come to mind. It's definitely an attractive idea: the human instinct of culture _and_ collective memory wound into the double helix. Very though-provoking, no doubt. The only science I can think of that approaches the fringes of science is the study of dreaming. I would not hesitate to claim that the root of memory (including recollections from infanthood and information imprinted on the visual cortex) is somehow linked to the baffling state of dream. Ancient cultures were aware of the threshold between Dreamtime and the living world. To cite a few random examples, Christian friars and modern missionaries have reported that their host indigenous cultures had odd circadian rhythms: many tribes sleeping few hours at a time, a heightened awareness of invisible spirits, and a sensitivity to their environment (forest, jungle, coastal) that at times seemed paranormal. I am beginning to suspect that modern humans think and perceive the sensory world how an autistic person might feel during complex social interactions: disconnected. Similarly, pre-language Neanderthals may have been alarmingly intuitive, interconnected, and categorically termed mystical, while modern humans by comparison would seem autistic, mentally muffled, rational. This reminds me of a conversation I had recently. What I mean to say is that scientific investigation is strictly empirical - this essentially means that whatever we deduce from our environment we can record and prove. This truth is only possible because of the complex human brain - but what if this mental organ(s) evolved for a set number of tasks, has a limited scope? Is it possible that rational, scientific pursuit is credible only as subjective as our minds are? Reincarnation may indeed be animal souls intertwined with a realm, so to speak, of the incredible and seemingly supernatural.


Agape said:


> I have read that animals have a group consciousness that became individualize as it have more experiences. Animals that people have as pets usually adopt the traits of their master. I read something that I find beautiful that with time...those animals that we treat as individual get separate from their group consciousness and become a single unit like humans are.


I've read in various myths that humans at one time were more closely related to animals. What I mean is that humans understood the language of the birds, could commune with animals, and had the respect of even carnivores. Whether this is fanciful allegory or some form of symbolism, the lesson remains - we humans are becoming more and more disconnected from our sympathetic roots. Plant-life is definitely collective, botanists are constantly noting communal behavior, communication through scent, and sensitivity to pain. These are all signs of sentience, in my opinion. Out of curiosity, why do you think animals have a group consciousness?


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

Bear987 said:


> Thanks for elaborating. I cannot read your entire post in one go; or respond to it. I would like to post a quick reply to what you're saying here though - if you don't mind.
> 
> You say that science is a tool and that as such it has its limitations. Science itself is no tool however. It is an honest effort to make sense of the (physical) world; it is a desire to know things - to discover the truth. The way to find out whether something is true requires proper and valid tools. The scientific method is such a tool that is meant to provide truthful and valid evidence for believing anything.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you said. I have always use science as much as I can to gain understanding of this world but there are some things that science have problems measuring. Let's said that there are other dimensions in existence that operates under entirely different laws of physics. What is good and valid here, could be false in here. That's the problem with consciousness and topics like reincarnation. Consciousness still is more problematic because of the observer phenomenon. The act of just observing/measuring something changes the outcome of the data( Double slit experiment). Reincarnation experiences are subjective. As a lot more other phenomena where consciousness is implied like out of body experiences, NDE, faith healing,etc. 

Still the scientific method can be use but with caveats.One of the pioneers in consciousness research was Robert Monroe. He did research on out of body experiences. The researchers on Monroe institute to prove that out of body experiences where real, they decided to collect data. For example in one room someone wrote in a blackboard that the out of body traveler had to read in his/her travel and wrote it back what he/she saw to verified if the journey happened. With reincarnation researchers try to reduce as much variables as possible...try to check if the memories are historical true, that the person is not cheating somehow and is mental sound. Most researchers that have study it are usually psychologist or psychiatrist. Probably because of how useful it has been as a therapeutic tool for phobias and other issues that are resistant to mainstream alternatives. All you can do is collect info and see if the facts makes sense. You can't replicate the experience and there lies is limitation. That is why I said suggestion of reincarnation. You can't observe directly the phenomenon happening. So it will remain a possibility.

You are right in the last part XD...my bad. Observation and first hand experience rule specially because of the subjective nature of these experiences. I have had out of body travels and because of that know without doubt that they are real. The same thing with reincarnation...I remember some of my past lives and they explain so much about some of my quirks and habits. I invite everyone to have out of body experiences and try to collect data to see if what you see was true. At that moment you will lose your fear of death, because you know that you can exist independent of the body. Reincarnation seems like an improbability as long as you identified with the body. That is why I said have an open yet skeptical mind, you could be missing so much. Because something is improbable doesn't mean it is impossible.


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## Christie42476 (May 25, 2012)

I tend towards a belief in reincarnation. Brian Weiss has some books on the subject that I've found very interesting, and when I was a teenager, I read a book by Helen Wambaugh (can't recall the name), where she did an experiment using past life hypnotic regression, that really escalated my interest in the subject. What was interesting about her experiment is that she asked questions whose answers were verifiable, like what do your eating utensils look like, what is the climate like where you live, what kind of clothing are you wearing, etc. I don't recall the exact statistics because it's been 20 years, but out of, I think, 1000 regressions (250 people in 4 different sessions, if memory serves), I think there were only something like 2 or 3 errors. Though I can't say it convinced me because I can clearly see plenty of room for doubt with it, it definitely intrigued me.

And then there was a really weird experience with my second-born child. She said and did some strange things when she was really little that my other three children never did or said. Once, when she was maybe 3, she was at her grandmother's house hanging out in her grandmother's bedroom while she folded laundry. She was bouncing on the bed, so her grandmother, Joan, told her nicely, "Brenna, please stop bouncing on my bed," to which my daughter replied, "But, Grandma, it's not really _your _bed. It's Mary's bed." Mary was Joan's older sister, who'd died years before Brenna was even born, and, yes, the bed had in fact been Mary's before she died. Not that Joan had ever mentioned that to anyone, especially her grandchildren, because it just wasn't something that ever came up in conversation. It totally freaked Joan out.

But the creepiest was when Brenna was 2 and the weekly emergency alarm drills from Millstone power plant sounded off while she was awake. She ran to the window, going, "Uh-oh, Daddy. Time to go to cellar. Bombs are coming. Planes are coming." At that point, she went to him, grabbed his hand, and proceeded to try to drag him to the basement, repeating her warning about the planes and the bombs, over and over, and starting to panic and cry when he wouldn't comply. To this day, he doesn't like to talk about it because it bothers him.

No, she had never watched any war movies because she was only 2, and, no, I don't know why she said "cellar" when we've always referred to it as a "basement", and so I have no idea where her behavior or words came from. By the time she hit about four years old, those incidents just kind of stopped, but they were eerie when they occurred. I can't really explain them, but they always did make me wonder.

So, though none of this constitutes proof of anything, it's definitely fueled my speculation on the subject over the years.


Edit: Correction - It was Helen Wambach, not Wambaugh, and the book was 1979's "Reliving Past Lives".


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## Bumblyjack (Nov 18, 2011)

The entropy of this universe is constantly increasing. Good luck reincarnating when there aren't even intact atoms left.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

Uncouth Angel said:


> I don't believe in reincarnation, but that's because I'm a Christian and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of my beliefs.


If I am not mistaken according to Christian doctrine, Jesus is God incarnated. The idea of people (in this case Jesus) existing in another dimension prior to being born into a human body the way Jesus was and the notion of human souls being reborn over and over (reincarnation), don't seem to be at odds with each other to me. In fact, they seem quite similar to me.

Secondly, in the new testament, in his talk with Nicodemus, Jesus says something about having to be reborn in order to get to heaven. I realize Jesus isn't talking about reincarnation explicitly, but the notion of having to be born again is there nonetheless.

Since you mentioned the workings of reincarnation clash with your Christian beliefs, what do you think of the points I just raised?

@Agape

I just watched the James Leninger video. Without saying that there is no such thing as reincarnation, I would like to say that the mere fact that this boy knows certain facts and details about a deceased fighter pilot (and that he claims he once was this pilot), doesn't justify the conclusion that reincarnation MUST be real - or that reincarnation is the only way to "explain this away".

In my opinion, leaps of faith like this (as proposed by Kierkegaard) are not necessary or even satisfying. They're not necessary, because I can live with the fact that we cannot explain something right away; there doesn't have to be an immediate explanation for everything. They're also not satisfying (to me), because any explanation that cannot be fact-checked or that isn't evidence-based, will, to a certain extent, always remain speculative or interlaced with wishful thinking or hope.

I do admit that this video aroused my interest in the subject, so I'll be sure to check out the other videos as well.


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## Agape (Jan 22, 2012)

@Bear987

That's the reason why I said suggestion of reincarnation not proof of it. 
@Enki

That's interesting. Didn't know that about the host native cultures..thanks for sharing. Curious where did you read that information.
I agree that humans are disconnected from their roots. When you go against the laws of nature, suffering is always the end result. Our bodies/mind where adapted to certain conditions that where shape by millions of years of interaction with our environment. Evolution is a very slow process...our bodies/minds have not adapted well to the modern conditions of the modern world. Think you may enjoy reading about morphic fields and the 100th monkey. It is a theory but kind of interesting.

Animals and plants have sentience. They can feel pleasure and pain but the difference lies in that they aren't self-aware. I have read very briefly that apart from humans, cetaceans might be self-aware..but need to read more about it. Animals that are domesticated tend to adopt the traits of their owner. They don't develop a personality of their own. The group consciousness bit was an idea I got in a book while I was studying if there was a link between personality and spirituality. Don't know it is true or not but it makes you wonder.


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## Uncouth Angel (Nov 26, 2011)

Bear987 said:


> If I am not mistaken according to Christian doctrine, Jesus is God incarnated. The idea of people (in this case Jesus) existing in another dimension prior to being born into a human body the way Jesus was and the notion of human souls being reborn over and over (reincarnation), don't seem to be at odds with each other to me. In fact, they seem quite similar to me.
> 
> Secondly, in the new testament, in his talk with Nicodemus, Jesus says something about having to be reborn in order to get to heaven. I realize Jesus isn't talking about reincarnation explicitly, but the notion of having to be born again is there nonetheless.
> 
> Since you mentioned the workings of reincarnation clash with your Christian beliefs, what do you think of the points I just raised?


 I think it's apples and oranges, at least to a degree. Being reborn in Christ does not mean reincarnation any more resurrection means zombification, transubstantiation means cannibalism, etc. 

The point about the supposed prior existence of the son of God and the human soul is intriguing, of course, because it mirrors Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you." But where do the concepts of karma, samsara, Nirvana, etc. fit in here? The differences between Christianity and, say Buddhism are striking, not because they are diametrically opposed (in their points of intersection, it is possible to translate the language of one into the other, and it works beautifully), but because not all of their concepts even have parallels. They exist almost on separate planes of thought. 

Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft, whom I had in mind when I wrote the original post, has made a list of supposed refutations of reincarnation, which are as follows:



> Christianity rejects reincarnation for 10 reasons:
> 
> 1. It is contradicted in Scripture (Hebrews 9:27)
> 
> ...


Reasons 1-3 are reasons why reincarnation wouldn't make sense in the context of Christianity (which I agree with), but they are not refutations of reincarnation per se.

The reasoning behind 4 could just as easily be used to critique theism on the grounds of the problem of evil etc., therefore I think the objector needs to look a little more deeply.

The reasoning behind 5 could also be used to critique the theistic notion of souls in general, though I do agree with Kreeft that the Christian idea of the soul makes more sense.

I agree with objections 6-9, but in the case of 9, what evidence could possibly suffice anyway?

I find 10 slightly odd, because falling from a state of pure, perfect spirituality is exactly what Lucifer, and later humanity, are believed to have done in the first place. Most Christians believe this was done on Earth rather than elsewhere. Spiritually, of course, it is an insane decision, but that's humanity for you.


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## Bear987 (May 13, 2012)

@Uncouth Angel

Thanks for quoting a philosopher next to your own thoughts. Quality posting as far as I am concerned.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

I think that there is some sort of reincarnation. If that's the case, then I'd hate to think that my recurring nightmare of being killed by Nazis in a city which I just know is Stalingrad is real.


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## Mutatio NOmenis (Jun 22, 2009)

I think that there is some sort of reincarnation. If that's the case, then I'd hate to think that my recurring nightmare of being killed by Nazis in a city which I just know is Stalingrad is real. I always put up a damn good fight though.


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## Coldspot (Nov 7, 2011)

Enki said:


> If a newborn has a large birthmark, this is indicative of the way the person they previously were had died. Somehow, the trauma (and wound) from another life carries over with the rebirth of the soul.


If this is true, then I was shot between my eyebrows.


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## Enkidu (Apr 19, 2010)

Agape said:


> That's interesting. Didn't know that about the host native cultures..thanks for sharing. Curious where did you read that information.
> I agree that humans are disconnected from their roots. When you go against the laws of nature, suffering is always the end result. Our bodies/mind where adapted to certain conditions that where shape by millions of years of interaction with our environment. Evolution is a very slow process...our bodies/minds have not adapted well to the modern conditions of the modern world. Think you may enjoy reading about morphic fields and the 100th monkey. It is a theory but kind of interesting.
> 
> Animals and plants have sentience. They can feel pleasure and pain but the difference lies in that they aren't self-aware. I have read very briefly that apart from humans, cetaceans might be self-aware..but need to read more about it. Animals that are domesticated tend to adopt the traits of their owner. They don't develop a personality of their own. The group consciousness bit was an idea I got in a book while I was studying if there was a link between personality and spirituality. Don't know it is true or not but it makes you wonder.


Here's a fun list for you:

_Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle_ 
by Daniel Everette

_Gaviotas: A Village to Reinvent the World_
by Alan Weisman 

_Parlement of Foules_
by Geoffrey Chaucer

_Reading the Green Language of Light_
by Vincent Bridges

I'd have to rummage through my book chest to look up specific citations, but here are some recent books I read that are related to some of the ideas I parroted. Suffering? According to the Hindu/Bon/Buddhist tradition? I totally agree - 'modern' humans are essentially the same as H. sapiens from 400,000 years ago. Our species is not some divine divergence in the hominid line, we're still in the process of evolving, like any other animal. Our bodies, like the interaction of two brain hemispheres, should be in harmony with our environment. Morphic fields and the 100th monkey? 

I agree, I've read the same about many aquatic species. Beyond mammals, even invertebrates like Octopus, Squid, and Cuttlefish show signs of high intelligence, tool-use, and display states of emotional sensitivity. You don't think they retain their personalities? I think saying that all domesticated animals lack their own individuality is generalizing a bit, no? Dogs are pack animals, cats are lonesome ambush predators, birds are social-monogamists, small rodents are collective or short-lived, and most farm stock are grazers...there's a really wide range of evolved traits just in that bunch. Adopting traits of the owner might be neurosis...or an empathetic relationship. I'd argue that spirituality is more like no-self, a state of being and flowing, or "a state of nature". Australian Aborigines say that animals live in Dreamtime, while humans re-learn how to enter it. Further, American natives would say that animals exist in this state, while humans have to don an animal mask just to peer into the spirit world.


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

Considering that the realm of our existence is limited to our own sensory perceptions, I think reincarnation is possible. and why not?

I don't believe in the concept of karma, in which people are reborn into a new life to pay former debt in a past life per se. That concept supports rather a caste system or creates a cognitive dissonance in explaining away, worse yet, blaming victims for the harm they endure and continue to 'accept' because that's just their destiny. I do however, believe that collectively we all have the social responsibility to treat one another humanely as to not cause grief or pain but to create a higher sense of dignity and evolutionary consciousness.

When people have out of body experiences, I don't think it's a mislinked synaptic connection. I think there's more to life than what we can see and observe. At the same time, I do think we need a balance of skepticism and spirituality as to not make faulty judgments or fallacies. The only dilemma is we cannot quantify what we can't see, but that doesn't dismiss our existence as being spiritual (whether or not we follow a religion- that's besides the point). I find reincarnation rather very intriguing.


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