# Non-native English speakers. How much do forums like this improve your English?



## HAL (May 10, 2014)

I'm interested because I'm currently learning Chinese and have now reached a stage where I can have a go at getting involved in online forums.

I'm particularly keen to do this because I'm leaving China at the end of June, and then have no idea when I'll return. So I'd like to maintain my Chinese skills somehow.

I guess forums will of course help with the continual maintenance of my ability, but I'm interested in how it happens - what improves the most? What are the benefits?

Also - introverts - some of us have a tendency to sub-vocalise when reading (literally reading it as if we're silently speaking the words in our heads). I am very much a sub-vocaliser. I'm wondering if this would help with oral language practice, even though no speaking is even being done..? Probably a bit of a long shot, but no harm it putting it out there.

Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks!


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## FlaviaGemina (May 3, 2012)

It doesn't help with my academic English at all, it mainly helps with learning how to misspell words like a native speaker , e.g. they're/ there/ their or 'definately'. It also helps with picking up swear words, or rather, those swear words that are fashionable on the internet, like douche bag, ass-hat, bad-ass etc.
That has certainly boosted my street cred with morons..... I mean with poetically challenged individuals, but I'm not sure that it's had any benefits apart from that. 


Yes, I'm an introvert and I do sub-vocalize.


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## LarryL (Apr 2, 2015)

The silent voice in your head has following reason: your brain is doing everything you would do when you talk, but you just don't allow your mouth to get the signal to move.
That means that your brain knows exactly how it should be pronounced and so you say it correctly in your mind. However, especially in the case of Chinese, vocality and tongue-movement are most crucial when trying to practice the pronounciation. The point I'm making is, that you should probably read it out aloud so both your mouth, your tongue and your vocal chords can get used to the correct pronounciation. Often times you know exactly how something should be pronounced, but once you say it out aloud, it can sound very derpy, because you're not used to actually saying it.
Also, some people are visual learners, some people are tonal learners, and if you are the latter, reading it out aloud can help you improve and memorize it better.


Also, since I've been learning English for basically 10 years now, online forum like these don't actually help my English since a lot of words used are words I've already learned. When I was younger though, online video games and forums/chats helped A LOT! It was basically the reason why I've been getting straight As in English classes for all my life.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

FlaviaGemina said:


> It doesn't help with my academic English at all, it mainly helps with learning how to misspell words like a native speaker , e.g. they're/ there/ their or 'definately'. It also helps with picking up swear words, or rather, those swear words that are fashionable on the internet, like douche bag, ass-hat, bad-ass etc.
> That has certainly boosted my street cred with morons..... I mean with poetically challenged individuals, but I'm not sure that it's had any benefits apart from that.
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm an introvert and I do sub-vocalize.


Interesting, thanks. And yeah, the spelling mistakes are _defiantly_ annoying. ( :wink: )

Then again, how do you make a spelling mistake in Chinese? You just type in the Pinyin and the correct character pops up on screen. The only error you can make is if you pick the wrong character.

Hah actually I did once see a brilliant spelling mistake..!

It was around christmas time. Of course the Chinese shouldn't necessarily celebrate christmas, but the commercial aspect has naturally flourished. The Chinese for 'Happy Christmas' is ShengDan KuaiLe. This is written like so: 圣诞快乐. It kind of means 'Happy Saint's birthday'.

I saw a sign saying 圣蛋快乐。 Note the difference:

圣诞快乐
圣蛋快乐

The second character also says 'Dan', and is pronounced exactly the same. But it means egg! 

Literally, the sign said, "Happy Saint Egg day." It was hand-written, too. 

Generally though I do think it's quite tough to make such a mistake in Chinese, compared with the ease of misspelling in English (or any alphabetic language).



LarryL said:


> The silent voice in your head has following reason: your brain is doing everything you would do when you talk, but you just don't allow your mouth to get the signal to move.
> That means that your brain knows exactly how it should be pronounced and so you say it correctly in your mind. However, especially in the case of Chinese, vocality and tongue-movement are most crucial when trying to practice the pronounciation. The point I'm making is, that you should probably read it out aloud so both your mouth, your tongue and your vocal chords can get used to the correct pronounciation. Often times you know exactly how something should be pronounced, but once you say it out aloud, it can sound very derpy, because you're not used to actually saying it.
> Also, some people are visual learners, some people are tonal learners, and if you are the latter, reading it out aloud can help you improve and memorize it better.
> 
> ...


So online communication did work? That's good to know.

I've picked up the tones and pronunciation pretty well. Actually just on Friday night, we met a Chinese guy who was utterly blown away by the fact that us three foreigners could all speak even a word of Chinese, haha. He then rated us. My one friend had the deepest vocabulary, my other friend had the best grammar, and I had the most native accent. He said I sounded like a real Chinese, woohoo! So yeah, I'm hoping I can just use forums to perfect my grammar and boost vocabulary.



Thanks for the input guys :happy:


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## Merry in Sunshine (Feb 14, 2015)

My English has gotten so much better thanks to being on the forum. I mean, my English was good even before, but I'm definitely more fluent now. I feel like I can express myself without having any language barriers, only my own personal awkward barriers that I have even on my native language.

I can say for sure this has helped me nail my college entrance exam - getting 146/150 and being the best at the college interview for the English Teaching Studies program. And getting accepted, of course.


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## LittleOrange (Feb 11, 2012)

A lot!


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

LarryL said:


> The point I'm making is, that you should probably read it out aloud so both your mouth, your tongue and your vocal chords can get used to the correct pronounciation. Often times you know exactly how something should be pronounced, but once you say it out aloud, it can sound very derpy, because you're not used to actually saying it.
> Also, some people are visual learners, some people are tonal learners, and if you are the latter, reading it out aloud can help you improve and memorize it better.


Either _aloud _or _out loud_. Never both.



> Also, since I've been learning English for basically 10 years now, online forum like these don't actually help my English since a lot of words used are words I've already learned. When I was younger though, online video games and forums/chats helped A LOT! It was basically the reason why I've been getting straight As in English classes for all my life.


I'm actually learning German. Do you know of any forums that are interesting and in German?


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

I used to learn English by singing and watching a lot of TV.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

Mandarin Chinese is my native tongue. English is my second. I am fluent in both that I can interpret both ways simultaneously on the spot if the speaker's topic isn't too technical (STEM, medical, law).

Overall I think my Chinese is slightly better because I enjoy reading classical lit and poems. Beowulf, Canterbury Tale, and even Shakespeare I still have a hard time getting into.

How do I retain my Chinese being in US for decades? I read on-line newspaper and comment section. The comment section is extremely helpful in keeping up with current slang and popular/trendy word play. Some comments are very clever in weaving old metaphors with current events, be it funny or sarcastic. 

To be good in Chinese one must know many old sayings and idioms. Most of them came from historical events or old tales hundreds of years ago. Most ppl pepper their speech and writing with such. Poems and famous written articles from dynasties long ago are still in use today in making allegorical or metaphoric arguments/statements. It's amazing that I keep finding new and clever use of these in news article's comment section. 

You may have to keep reading to keep your Chinese from slipping away or to improve it. I never stop reading books in Chinese for all the decades I've been in USA. To keep up with pronunciation and enunciation you should recite while reading passages. This is how I learned English, by reading book after book and reciting while reading. 

If you can find audio books in Chinese on line, it's another good tool. I listen to endless audio books in English. It helps me with sound association and meaning association on the spot (you get it in split second from hearing the words in context). Listening also improves oratory phrasing when speaking (when to breath and when to break, etc.) and gets correct pronunciation for long words.

Chinese is a hard language to master. Regular chit chat is fine but to write and speak with wit and sophistication it takes decades; yes, decades of reading good stuff (there are a lot of trash books out there in Chinese; just like English books). Anyhow, you are welcome to ask me questions if you want.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

@Merry in Sunshine - Fantastic, good to know!
@chanteuse - Also fantastic! Yeah I figured I'd need to keep up with the reading. Part of me already knows that a lot of it will go down the drain as soon as I'm home. Or at least I won't be able to improve anything. I'll have too much university shit to deal with, and my studies are not 'Chinese' at all, haha. I'm going for the HSK4 in May and, if I pass, I at least hope to maintain my HSK4 standard until possibly improving myself in the future.

Good to know that there are techniques out there. And yeah about the idioms etc, I take it you mean 成语s? I've heard they're a bitch to figure out for foreign Chinese learners, and so far I know literally about two..! Well, I have no direct intention to become natively fluent anyway, I just want to make sure I don't forget it, or at least can improve a wee bit. 成语s will come after the book I'm currently studying, I think.

Thanks for the advice guys :happy:


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

HAL said:


> @Merry in Sunshin - Fantastic, good to know!
> @chanteuse - Also fantastic! Yeah I figured I'd need to keep up with the reading. Part of me already knows that a lot of it will go down the drain as soon as I'm home. Or at least I won't be able to improve anything. I'll have too much university shit to deal with, and my studies are not 'Chinese' at all, haha. I'm going for the HSK4 in May and, if I pass, I at least hope to maintain my HSK4 standard until possibly improving myself in the future.
> 
> Good to know that there are techniques out there. And yeah about the idioms etc, I take it you mean 成语s? I've heard they're a bitch to figure out for foreign Chinese learners, and so far I know literally about two..! Well, I have no direct intention to become natively fluent anyway, I just want to make sure I don't forget it, or at least can improve a wee bit. 成语s will come after the book I'm currently studying, I think.
> ...


I bought a reference book for idioms when I went to Taiwan a few years ago. There are so many that I figured I'd better have a reference handy so that I would not use the wrong expression when I write. 

It has become pretty useful. Each idiom comes with where it came from and the meaning of it. I found that I was able to get a quick history course just browsing. 

If your goal is to maintain a conversational level, you should get a native speaker friend to do informal language exchange. You teach him/her yours and he/she teaches you Mandarin.

Somehow conversational level to me is the hardest to achieve. I could not speak English for the first 7 years after I moved to the US. I didn't know enough words, current events, interesting/relevant topics to say anything worth noting. It took me a long time to get enough data inside my head from reading newspaper and magazine articles. When one is talking, it has a lot to do with mental reflex. the more you know, the longer you regurgitate information, the faster you can converse coherently and articulate your chit chat in organized manner.

To do so in Mandarin is even harder; imagine an adult staying in elementary school children level chit chat because there's not enough vocabulary and quick turn around to volley back and forth talking about more sophisticated topics.

I got my HSK 11 a few years ago on a whim (I saw the newspaper article about the test), in case I was asked to provide language proficiency proof.


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## KillingTroubleShooter (Mar 25, 2015)

I noticed my english is slowly starting to flow better when it comes to writing, it was pretty robotic when i started (might still be, to some degree, i don't know, you tell me haha). 
Sub-vocalising... that's interesting piece of information, i do that, not sure if it improved speaking skills since i don't do that in a while.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

chanteuse said:


> I bought a reference book for idioms when I went to Taiwan a few years ago. There are so many that I figured I'd better have a reference handy so that I would not use the wrong expression when I write.
> 
> It has become pretty useful. Each idiom comes with where it came from and the meaning of it. I found that I was able to get a quick history course just browsing.
> 
> ...


The HSK has changed now and only goes up to level 6!!

Apparently the government took the test from Beijing Language and Culture University and decided to administer it for themselves. Many people are angry about it because it's clearly just a money-making scheme for the government - the test fees etc are something of a cash cow. They say HSK1, 2, 3 and 4 are all relatively achievable with not necessarily too much effort (but still need to study, of course), and then HSK5 and 6 are the big ones. Specially 6, which I guess should be quite tough as it's the top level!

I don't think I'm anywhere near conversational yet. However I'm able to quite easily 'complete any task' in China. e.g. if I need, want, or require something, or have some task to complete, or if I'm moving around somewhere and a local has a small chat with me, I can do it. But no I can't sit and converse fluidly at all, haha. Still, after just one year here I'm quite proud of how far I've come. I'm top of my class and am the only one going for HSK4. My reading and writing is better than my speaking. I can actually 'listen' quite well. I just get tongue-tied quite easily if I want to respond sometimes.

Thanks again for the advice. erc2:


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

HAL said:


> The HSK has changed now and only goes up to level 6!!
> 
> Apparently the government took the test from Beijing Language and Culture University and decided to administer it for themselves. Many people are angry about it because it's clearly just a money-making scheme for the government - the test fees etc are something of a cash cow. They say HSK1, 2, 3 and 4 are all relatively achievable with not necessarily too much effort (but still need to study, of course), and then HSK5 and 6 are the big ones. Specially 6, which I guess should be quite tough as it's the top level!
> 
> ...


They changed it after 2010. I took it in 2009 or 2008 I think.

It is money making. But it's also necessary to have a standardized test for all foreigners who want to go to school or do business in China. 

Language is really a life long thing. I've yet met any scholar or author who has stopped learning or refreshing his/her Chinese. My dad when he's alive, was a historian/journalist/magazine editor. He's always referring to historical books when he wrote his weekly political commentary piece. He read ancient theological texts to better his logical thinking skill. He did it until he's too sick to read. 

There's so much one can learn. It's not just the language itself, it's history, culture, ppl, philosophies, everything new and old. I am about to reach the age when my dad passed away but my depth in Chinese culture is still on a superficial level. This is how I feel about my English, too. Whenever ppl told me how good my English is, I could never accept the compliment. There's still so much I don't know and haven't read......


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

chanteuse said:


> They changed it after 2010. I took it in 2009 or 2008 I think.
> 
> It is money making. But it's also necessary to have a standardized test for all foreigners who want to go to school or do business in China.
> 
> ...


That's interesting and I agree. I've always thought that language and culture are deeply linked.

It's amazing how much I've come to understand parts Chinese culture just from learning the language here for half a year.

Most foreigners arrive and they barely scratch the surface - "Oh Chinese people like to buy us drinks and give away constant cigarettes." Then they go on to teach English and pose as models and just live the life of a 'westerner in China'.

Now after learning it for a while, I'm reeeeeeeally starting to get a better idea of what life is all about here.

I'm still very much a 'westerner in China', of course, but most definitely I've improved a fair amount, thanks to me picking up the language.

So yeah, I agree, it's a constant growth and is almost never-ending.

It must be fascinating for you, being able to so fluently see the differences in mindset, when changing between Chinese and English conversation. Language itself is at the core of every thought and action, I think.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

HAL said:


> That's interesting and I agree. I've always thought that language and culture are deeply linked.
> 
> It's amazing how much I've come to understand parts Chinese culture just from learning the language here for half a year.
> 
> ...




There's always the lure for westerns to live in the far east. Reading WS Maugham's short stories gave me a very clear picture. 

For me personally I appreciate both the western and eastern philosophy and life style; the good and the not so good bits. I don't have illusion but go with the flow without complaining. There's no perfect society anywhere.


Chinese people in general treat Westerns like novel objects. They are "foreigners" after all. Most don't expect them to understand Chinese. It's strangely interesting to be fussed over or set apart in the beginning. Most don't stay there long enough to get tired of it. 

For the younger and good looking ones, it's almost like addictive high when Chinese ppl keep telling them how "good looking" they are while they are just typical looking back home.


At the end of the day, everyone has his own take on living among ppl not his own race. Some become bitter. Some only see the good. Some adapt. Some use it as an escape. 

I like my Chinese root very much because it sets me apart from being like an average Westerner. If I would move back, my decades living in the US would set me apart from being a typical Chinese. It's win-win in my book.


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## Lemxn (Aug 17, 2013)

My English is better since I joined PerC, way much better. I find myself even thinking on English instead of my own language, I also speak more fluently. Of course I still having my grammatical mistakes, etc even I still confusing some words by their sound but I think it's pretty normal.


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## Cosmic Hobo (Feb 7, 2013)

You guys might find this website useful:
Antimoon: How to learn English effectively

It's a very good website, which provides language acquisition strategies using comprehensible input (the more you listen and read, the more your English - including speaking and writing - will improve). It's run by two Poles who basically raised their English to near-native speaker level using input over a couple of years. 

Their approach is based on the work of the linguist Stephen Krashen (Books and Articles by Stephen D Krashen). Krashen's approach has been picked up by a number of other websites, including:

http://l2mastery.com/
*
*http://thelanguagedojo.com/

AJATT | All Japanese All The Time | You don't know a language, you live it. You don't learn a language, you get used to it.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

chanteuse said:


> If your goal is to maintain a conversational level, you should get a native speaker friend to do informal language exchange. You teach him/her yours and he/she teaches you Mandarin.
> 
> Somehow conversational level to me is the hardest to achieve. I could not speak English for the first 7 years after I moved to the US. I didn't know enough words, current events, interesting/relevant topics to say anything worth noting. It took me a long time to get enough data inside my head from reading newspaper and magazine articles. When one is talking, it has a lot to do with mental reflex. the more you know, the longer you regurgitate information, the faster you can converse coherently and articulate your chit chat in organized manner.


Don't feel bad. I've been speaking English for about 19 years and am still very bad at conversational English.



HAL said:


> That's interesting and I agree. I've always thought that language and culture are deeply linked.
> 
> It's amazing how much I've come to understand parts Chinese culture just from learning the language here for half a year.
> 
> ...


Do they speak much English where you are in China? Do you find it difficult to get around without help?
[hr][/hr]
I find looking at websites entirely in German at first very threatening and scary. And then I look at the words on the page and realize
1. wow I know the majority of these words
2. this isn't that hard or scary afterall what the heck

And then I go to websites that are entirely in English and it's like I'm on easy mode and my brain sort of shuts off and naturally pushes all the buttons without even reading the words . . . just knowing where everything is. very second-nature (or should I say first-nature?).

I have had my phone and tablet in german for about a year now. Recently I changed my SD card to a german SD card, and this made my phone change its language to English for some reason (probably because I bought it in America idk) and it just felt so weird to look at things in English. It felt almost unfamiliar while at the same time . . . not unfamiliar because it was english ? very strange experience.

I would love to get over that fear of German and feel comfortable looking at things that are in German. Why is there that initial fear of "oh my god, despite learning this language for nearly a year and a half, seeing this language still totally terrifies me." lol how irrational is that?


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## Hifrausso (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm a native Tagalog speaker with intermediate level in English language. I've been on different forums for quite some time including PerC which I currently use as a medium for online self-expression. It really does help especially for expanding my vocabulary. Most INFPs are very creative at forming sentences that's why I get to be introduced to new words that are unknown to me. I need more practice in grammar though.


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## chanteuse (May 30, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Don't feel bad. I've been speaking English for about 19 years and am still very bad at conversational English.


Yeah but you are an INTJ. That's a birth mark that stays with you for life. You guys have so much data stored inside but without typing in the right command, the data won't come out or comes out in a jumbo of nonsense. ^_*

You guys have a language most ppl don't get. Talking to INTJ is like learning/coding a new language. Only with patience, time, and trying can a non INTJ converse with an INTJ smoothly. ;-)


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Do they speak much English where you are in China? Do you find it difficult to get around without help?


China definitely has much less English than any other country I've been to. Apart from students on campus, but their English isn't great either, unless they're an English major.

Off campus, you're in at the very deep end. The only place you can guarantee to find an English speaker is at the foreigner hangouts, where a few particular types of Chinese people like to go, because they enjoy Western culture of whatever. Other than that, you have no chance.

In other parts of the world it's sort of standard to hear a bit of desperate English in most places, but in China it's more the other way around - for example I went to a little eatery to get some food with some friends yesterday and a girl working there said to us, "Hello, come in!" She said it poorly, but she did say it, and it was refreshing, like, 'oh hey, how nice, she's trying English with us!'. Most Chinese can't speak a word of it.

People say that Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou are easier places for getting by with only English. I personally think that those people are only hanging around the expat hotspots. I was in Shanghai and Beijing and again would have been fucked if I couldn't speak any Chinese. And so, to answer your next question:

No I don't find it difficult, _any more_. When I arrived I didn't know a word of Chinese, other than 'ni hao', but now, after being here for 7 months on an intensive course, I am 100% confident in my ability to get around, handle problems, and lightly communicate with people.

Last weekend I was in a club and made friends with some Tibetans. All via Chinese. I added one of them on wechat (major Chinese messaging app, with facebook-style newsfeed etc) and had a browse of his profile, and holy fuck he's like a real deal Tibetan, goes out in all the Buddhist gear, goes to massive events in far-out places, doing whatever it is that proper Tibetan buddhist types do. I'm in Chengdu, which is south-west China, one of the closest major destinations before reaching the Tibetan region.

And this is all because I can now speak enough Chinese to meet and befriend people like that. I have to say it's quite the highlight. Also it makes me sound like I'm trying to collect pokemon (OMG A TIBEEETAAAANN!!!!). But fuck it, I still think it's kind of cool.

I also learned that Tibetans are really cool people. Around the cultural heritage stuff a lot of them do, they also, like many other humans (and especially certain humans with a Chinese cultural background) rather enjoy drinking, smoking, socialising and having a nice time. Many of my personal cultural expectations have been smashed to pieces since arriving here. It's fantastic. And again it's actually thanks to me learning the language, so I can connect on a slightly deeper level with the people around me.



> I have had my phone and tablet in german for about a year now. Recently I changed my SD card to a german SD card, and this made my phone change its language to English for some reason (probably because I bought it in America idk) and it just felt so weird to look at things in English. It felt almost unfamiliar while at the same time . . . not unfamiliar because it was english ? very strange experience.
> 
> I would love to get over that fear of German and feel comfortable looking at things that are in German. Why is there that initial fear of "oh my god, despite learning this language for nearly a year and a half, seeing this language still totally terrifies me." lol how irrational is that?


Not that I can necessarily understand all of it, but my phone is in Chinese now. I intend to keep it that way when I go back home. It's just for practice, really. 

Also I'm the same in that I totally blank when I see large chunks of Chinese text. Specially over the two month winter break. I had no classes, and went straight back into 100% English mode, apart from when I went out to buy things like food etc. I'd look on my WeChat news feed and my mind would just glaze over at the sight of all the Chinese status updates. I literally just saw Chinese characters and ignored them. But when I actually focus, I always find I can easily glean the overall meaning of most things. I do wonder how long it'll be before I can just glance at Chinese writing and 'see' it in the same way I see English.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

@HAL have you experienced this at all

White People with No Skill Sets Wanted in China | VICE | United States
I love being white in China | The World of Chinese
https://leilaninishime.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/white-privilege-and-racism-are-alive-in-asia/


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

FlaviaGemina said:


> That has certainly boosted my street cred with morons..... I mean with poetically challenged individuals


:laughing:


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

emberfly said:


> @HAL have you experienced this at all
> 
> White People with No Skill Sets Wanted in China | VICE | United States
> I love being white in China | The World of Chinese
> https://leilaninishime.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/white-privilege-and-racism-are-alive-in-asia/


All 100% true.

Although not every foreigner follows this path. I for one did consider doing the teaching thing, I joined an agency, told them straight up that I was unqualified and was just curious because my friends were doing it, but after one practice 1-on-1 session with a potential client, I gave up because frankly I know I'm not a teacher. I felt like a fraud and didn't want to play that game.

Others don't do it at all. I know a fair few people who are here purely to study, including myself. As I said, I dabbled with the idea, but it was ages ago and now I'm here purely to study.

But yes the articles are 100% utterly true. Pretty much word for word.

Just yesterday I was walking to a tea house with some friends. We heard a guy shout, "HEY, GUYS!". We then looked over to see a some guy had quickly stopped his car to come over and get our attention. He was looking for foreigners to appear in his film project, a promotional thing for the new Assassin's Creed game or something. He wanted white people for his project.

Other personal examples: Just like one of the articles, I also know an Italian girl who's being used for her prettiness. She hasn't done movies or anything, but she's paid to literally 'be' in a club all night.

I know plenty of VERY normal guys and girls getting modelling jobs. One of them, although not ugly, is quite distinctly average and now he's arrogant enough to turn down jobs if they don't pay more then 2000Yuan ($300ish) for his time.

And, most of all, I know some FUCKING TOTAL IDIOTS who are earning a fortune teaching English.

Really, it's all 100% true.

I think I'll say it one more time... It's all 100% true.

It's disturbing, really.

The only plus point is that most are so stupid that they're just living the high life in China and will return to their home countries a few years with nothing, no savings or anything. A few wise ones will go home rather rich, but most are fucked. They'll go home wasted and unemployable.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

HAL said:


> All 100% true.
> 
> Although not every foreigner follows this path. I for one did consider doing the teaching thing, I joined an agency, told them straight up that I was unqualified and was just curious because my friends were doing it, but after one practice 1-on-1 session with a potential client, I gave up because frankly I know I'm not a teacher. I felt like a fraud and didn't want to play that game.


I imagine I would feel the exact same way. However if I had teaching experience at all, I think I could feel a lot more comfortable doing it.

Plus I wouldn't at all want to teach anyone, especially a child, with whom I couldn't even communicate.

However, though, I read an article (that I didn't link) that talked about how many places in China view English speakers who cannot speak even a word of Chinese as *more *desirable than those who do know Chinese because they view the inability to speak Chinese as a _positive_--in that the teacher will be forced to speak the entire time in English and cannot "cheat" or whatever and teach the kids in Chinese at all.

Yes, I and the author of the article realize how stupid and ridiculous that sounds XD Surely knowing some Chinese would be way more beneficial for the students who are struggling.



> I know plenty of VERY normal guys and girls getting modelling jobs. One of them, although not ugly, is quite distinctly average and now he's arrogant enough to turn down jobs if they don't pay more then 2000Yuan ($300ish) for his time.


Do you have something morally against supply and demand?



> A few wise ones will go home rather rich, but most are fucked. They'll go home wasted and unemployable.


Be a smart one!! Jump at the opportunities available to you, young Padawan!!

If someone offered me a job in which all I had to do was speak some English to some kids on the weekends, and they were fully aware that
1. I wasn't qualified
2. I didn't speak Chinese

I would jump at the opportunity for the free money.

Saying no just means they'll go find someone else equally unqualified to hand their money to.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

emberfly said:


> Do you have something morally against supply and demand?


Fair point. I guess it's more about the fact that this example in particular is down to something that could be classed as a kind of subliminal reverse racism thing, or something like that anyway. He's white and that's literally the reason he gets it. It exacerbates the whole concept of white people having an elevated status.

Fair play to the guy though. My opinion is subjective, I guess.



> Be a smart one!! Jump at the opportunities available to you, young Padawan!!
> 
> If someone offered me a job in which all I had to do was speak some English to some kids on the weekends, and they were fully aware that
> 1. I wasn't qualified
> ...


Again my opinion is probably just subjective, but I tend to go with the philosophy of, "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

As a physicist I like to push things to extremes to illustrate examples. It can be quite handy actually. So here's an extreme example:

Go to a country where you can easily get a job as a contract killer. Fuck it, it pays well and someone's gonna do it anyway, right? 

That's sort of in the same category as these people taking advantage of the skewed and damaging ideals of the Chinese. Whole generations of kids are being given inadequate education at extortionate prices. And there's the whole exacerbation of the glorification of the white man. I feel quite bad being part of it all.

Yes my 'killing' example is extreme, but I just want to highlight how I personally don't think it's always necessarily ok to just follow money down paths with slightly questionable morals behind them, simply on the justification that someone else will do it anyway.

But yes it's subjective and there are probably countless arguments against what I've just said.

In the end it's just down to the fact that I don't want to, haha.

Plus if I do work, it'll get in the way of my studies. And my studies are going rather well right now!

Also, the Chinese government just raised my monthly scholarship living money to an amount I'll never need to spend. I'll be going home a couple of thousand dollars richer anyway. Heh!

EDIT: Don't know why I gave the savings in dollars. I just do it because I assume most users here can think easiest in dollars. For my own peace of mind, I'd like to do it in my own currency. I'll be going home with roughly £1500 of Chinese government scholarship money.

Not a huge amount, but a total giveaway so I'm happy. And it's actually gonna help me a huge amount with sorting a few things out when I get home.


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## Fredward (Sep 21, 2013)

Not much, nice for polish/upkeep though.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Thread update: I still haven't made a start on any Chinese forums. Tonight will be the night!


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Right I'm on the Baidu forums.

I found the 'England' forum, which is mostly full of Chinese youngsters who are going to the UK, mainly to study.

So the one thing I've discovered so far is, '_what Chinese students do with their lives when they come to the UK_'.

They travel around to loads of places I haven't been to (but only because they look quite average to me), then upload stories and pictures about it to the Baidu forums.

Quite interesting actually!


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## Aeidrung (Mar 21, 2015)

It can be very helpful. Especially for introverts, so they don't have to speak with real people and then get embarassed if they make a mistake, but they can discuss things here, improve their skills in a particular language without any stress. 

As for speaking in your head.. I've been practising that since I learned how to read. Honestly, I can't imagine not doing it  It stimulates your brain even though there are no words coming out of your mouth. I have a tendency to speak very fast and quietly, but it only happens when I use my native language. My English is smoother, maybe because I've always considered it as a special way of expressing my thoughts? Once you start to feel the language, it becomes easier to study. And then you start to look higher. I wish I could speak the way you do guys  With such a gentle touch of metaphores and making it all sound so lovely in my head

I hope I haven't made too many mistakes. Correct me, if anything's wrong


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## somethingtotallyrandom (Mar 7, 2015)

I believe that every single type of communication can help in the language learning process. Let me tell you a story about how I learned most of my english.

When I was 10, I started playing this online game called Runescape. It's an open world sandbox game, meaning that players have to gather resources, craft stuff and, consequently, *trade*. I didn't speak english at all, but I had to if I wanted to succed in the game. I knew what "buy" and "sell" meant, and I knew the name of the item I was trying to trade. So I started noticing patterns in the way people wrote. It didn't take long till I learned that if I wanted to sell a "dragon scimitar", for example, I had to type "Sell*ing* dragon scimtar *for* 100k". I started seeing this *ing* thing in the end of a lot of words, and soon it made sense to me. I also saw the word "for" in a lot of contexts, and soon I realized what it meant. Later on, when I had basic english skills, I started participating in online forums about the game and that is where my english really improved. The discussions on the forums were a little bit more serious than in the game, and I no longer had to read/write only one line of text at a time. I had to read and write whole blocks of texts. My vocabullary and my ability to express myself in english increased drastially. I frequently spent half an hour or even more to write a single paragraph, but I always did the best I could.

When I was 16, I traved to the united states alone and the english I had learned this way was enough for me to survive there, make some friends and come back home safe a month later. 

Online forums might not be that helpful for academic writing and that kind of thing, but it'll definitely improve your communication skills in that language.


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## ficsci (May 4, 2011)

So I started really using English when I was 10, it's my first language now, and I started lurking music message boards when I was 12. So yes, actually message boards was a huge part of my English learning. I already could read and write grammatically correct sentences, but what I still found difficult were reading people's tone (esp. sarcasm) and making up efficient sentences. My written sentences were often long and redundant, and took me forever to write what I'm thinking. The message boards also weren't like PerC, so people wouldn't write long, thoughtful, edited posts. I think the community was more like what Youtube commenters are like these days. Talking to people online was actually really difficult and frustrating for the first couple of years (in addition to my being an awkward teenager trying to look cool on the internet), but I think the right way to learn any language is by real conversations (and trolls), and this is pretty close.

I'm second-language level in Japanese, and although I rarely post anything online in Japanese, I read people's Twitters, blogs, 2Chan, and online Q&A. They've really helped me know what's going on, not just colloquial language, but also the culture of people my age. Unfortunately for Japanese people, since they already have so much info and crap on the internet that are in Japanese, you rarely see a wild Japanese online lurker posting in English websites (if they post on Youtube, they'd write in Japanese), because they rarely seek online content or communities in other languages. I actually think that's why most Japanese suck at English, they don't try to explore on their own even though the whole world is just right there in their high-tech phones.

I've also been in message boards and Livejournal communities where there are lots of Europeans/South Americans/Asians who are trying to communicate there in English just because of a common interest. I mean, that just really makes me believe in the internet.

And yes, I speak in my head. I also think it helps to think your regular thoughts in the language you're learning, instead of thinking in your first language, then translating it.


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## Ninjaws (Jul 10, 2014)

The forums only solidify my knowledge rather than teaching me more. The things that taught me the most were videogames. If all the voices and messages are in a certain language, you automatically start to pick it up.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Thanks guys for the continuing responses. Your English is all amazing, by the way.

Update from me: My involvement on the baidu forums seems to be paying off big style with my reading and writing. I can comprehend more and more and, when reading things out loud, I'm rapidly gaining a level of fluidity that I just didn't have before.

So yeah it's helping loads!

However I'll admit my speaking improvement rate is still the the same as it's always been. Or maybe my speaking is improving, but my reading and writing is coming on in leaps and bounds, so my speaking skills feel a little overshadowed now.

On the plus side, I've just finished going through the HSK4 word list so, now that the bulk of the new and important vocabulary is out of the way, I can shift over to focussing on oral Chinese good and proper.

All jolly good stuff.


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## Darkbloom (Aug 11, 2013)

I've been thinking in English for years(I never have to translate anything in my head),it comes naturally to me,and forums and being online in general combined with watching TV shows and movies with no subtitles really helped with that.
But I can't actually _speak_ English,I'm awful at that XD


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

A lot. now I'm not struggling in my English classes. I love personalitatem cafe.


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

A lot! My English is much more better than before and I read long texts without getting bored/tired. And I'm always learning new words and expressions.


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## bremen (Apr 25, 2016)

I been writing in english online for as long as I renember,at this point,forums won't improve my english significantly.I also prefer writing in english than my native language,english is easier I find.


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## The red spirit (Sep 29, 2015)

ColdNobility said:


> I been writing in english online for as long as I renember,at this point,forums won't improve my english significantly.I also prefer writing in english than my native language,english is easier I find.


What is your native language?


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

HAL said:


> I do wonder how long it'll be before I can just glance at Chinese writing and 'see' it in the same way I see English.


Heh. Almost two years since I made this thread.

I'm now at the point of reading Chinese without realising I'm reading Chinese. I can also have Chinese friends chat away to me and I won't realise I'm listening to Chinese. The times I have to replay or reread something are getting far fewer.

Woohoo, improvement!

My speaking is still the weakest area, but it's definitely improved nicely too.

Also, this is just conversational Chinese. I'm fucked if someone starts using complex academic, political or business terms with me.

Pleased either way though!


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## OP (Oct 22, 2016)

HAL said:


> Heh. Almost two years since I made this thread.
> 
> I'm now at the point of reading Chinese without realising I'm reading Chinese. I can also have Chinese friends chat away to me and I won't realise I'm listening to Chinese. The times I have to replay or reread something are getting far fewer.
> 
> ...


Congrats! I'm bilingual in Cantonese and English and learning 2 other languages. I've done what you just described with my 4th language a couple of times, but not my 3rd one... weird huh?

My written Chinese has gotten worse after not studying it since grade 8, and I've been forgetting words more often when I talk to people back home, but my reading hasn't been affected. I'm going to teach myself to write Chinese at a high school level when I finish high school.

加油! <-- for those who don't understand, the literal translation is "add oil" but it's a term used to encourage people to keep going.

And yes, PerC does help with my written English, because I often Google phrases that I'm typing to make sure they're grammatically correct.


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## Aridela (Mar 14, 2015)

HAL said:


> I'm interested because I'm currently learning Chinese and have now reached a stage where I can have a go at getting involved in online forums.
> 
> I'm particularly keen to do this because I'm leaving China at the end of June, and then have no idea when I'll return. So I'd like to maintain my Chinese skills somehow.
> 
> ...


In my case it helps a lot, though I still end up mispronouncing some fancy words when I've only seen them written and didn't bother confirming the pronounciation before using them. t's a bit embarassing cause I've been living in an English speaking country for too long now to play the immigrant card.

I employ the same strategy with Italian and Japanese, occasionally reading the news in the respective language. Might want to try the radio (internet radio in my case), or telly for some listening practise. 

I find it helps with vocabulary mostly and getting to grips with the lingo, as you can't really learn slang from books. 

I don't subvocalise normally but I do it intentionally when I'm learning a new language as I find that it helps me get used to the sound of my voice speaking a different language, therefore it makes me more likely to dare speak to other human beings in that language if need be.


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