# Unconventionality being seen as ingratitude— what can an NP do?



## Llyralen

Scoobyscoob said:


> What you're describing is Te and Ti, not Fi or Fe. 😉


I understand you. You don’t understand me.


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## incision

Llyralen said:


> Their plans actually aren’t valid for us. Their plans would make horrible sense for our situation. If I did what they do I’d be in the hole financially. I have shown them this before, but they aren’t that good with math, I don’t need them looking at my budget and they are worse at understanding someone else’s resources and circumstances. So they just go back to “Well, what I would do is...”. Of course they bail out their other kids when the other kids follow their advice. This is not a possible way of living for me. It would make me feel horribly trapped. But in my situation trapped with things to negotiate over my head is exactly where they want me
> 
> Okay I’m getting the point. We can’t do general, we’ve got to get specifics around here. I don’t have a current problem with the SJs because we broke things off with them several years ago, but my husband’s grandma dying put him in contact with his parents again and I told him. “Just don’t let them take over again. I am not going to be controlled and I will not talk to them.”
> 
> So far so good. I heard one of you say something about ingratitude and unconventionality. I thought I could ask about it. Wondered about people’s experiences. Maybe it’s just too general?
> There are obvious SJs masquerading as other types. I don’t blame you after seeing this thread.
> 
> HOW, though, HOW are we ever going to talk if we can’t talk? How do you guys ever learn to deal with us NFPs?
> 
> Okay, I wil wait until I’ve got a specific situation to try talking to you all again. Errr. Something. Lol...
> 
> By the way, I really am sorry for the prejudice. You all don’t deserve that. And I have an ESFJ son and he is the sweetest. I need to understand you all better.


While I hear you about their advice not being valid for the life you wish, that's not what I was suggesting. Apply break up rules where when you want to let your ex down lightly, you take the high road blame for the problem not being on their side, even if it was on their side. This helps to reduce drama post break up and appears to offend the other person less. The same tactic is amended to suit your situation where you acknowledge their advice as being helpful but as solely a contingency plan since you'd like to try it your way first and if your way results in mistakes, at least you've got their contingency plan to fall back on. This doesn't mean that you would ever apply their advice but acknowledging their advice as valid which isn't a lie since it's valid for others like themselves and also as valid as a contingency plan, might help to mitigate offended feelings and also help to alleviate their concern over the non-conventional lifestyle.

p.s. I'm not an SJ. ENTJ here who has had to live in an SJ world, as you too have to live in an SJ world.


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## Scoobyscoob

Llyralen said:


> I understand you. You don’t understand me.


Do you, Llyralen? Do you really? Also, I barely know anything about you so I don't know you so I wouldn't ever claim to understand your racism either. 😉


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## Llyralen

incision said:


> While I hear you about their advice not being valid for the life you wish, that's not what I was suggesting. Apply break up rules where when you want to let your ex down lightly, you take the high road blame for the problem not being on their side, even if it was on their side. This helps to reduce drama post break up and appears to offend the other person less. The same tactic is amended to suit your situation where you acknowledge their advice as being helpful but as solely a contingency plan since you'd like to try it your way first and if your way results in mistakes, at least you've got their contingency plan to fall back on. This doesn't mean that you would ever apply their advice but acknowledging their advice as valid which isn't a lie since it's valid for others like themselves and also as valid as a contingency plan, might help to mitigate offended feelings and also help to alleviate their concern over the non-conventional lifestyle.
> 
> p.s. I'm not an SJ. ENTJ here who has had to live in an SJ world, as you too have to live in an SJ world.


Thank you for replying and for clarifying that you didn’t expect me to do what they wanted and also don’t expect me to lie. What you’re saying makes good sense. I think at the beginning when they were starting to realize that I was going to do what I thought was best and not take advice that this kind of tactic would have helped— if I had not expected them to see my point or understand me. It would not have explained how I see things or the motivations I have, but it would have given them whatever they needed by way of feeling respected and still made the point that my decisions were my own decisions to make— to a degree that would have been more acceptable?
A good tactic for work too, if needed.

I talked to my husband about what you said. He said “I took too much of the blame for everything”. Which was very true. It wasn’t logical at all how he was the scape goat for everything and how that somehow worked to placate them and yet if they truly had believed that he had done all the stuff they placed onto him then that’s not even someone who I would associate with... so I never could understand how that worked like a charm. I started to get really furious at the pressure of what he was supposed to take on.

Anyway, I don’t know if the “I will try that if mine fails” would have worked enough for me to feel free and honest and understood— things I want in any relationship. I know their other kids get away with a lot by not being completely honest about what they will do and then the parents readjust (kind of) to what is actually happening once the real actions become apparent but then they re-state their wishes and still feel that their kids are listening to their advice. The appearance seems to be the important thing? Hmm, this is all kind of making me feel a bit better about what we actually did and is shooting down Ideas of what I could have done differently (brings peace). I don’t think I can live with the appearance of being controlled either.

We haven’t talked about the perceived ingratitude, but all of these posts help me see how obvious what STJs wanted was to others and how maybe even impossible the type of relationship that I’d wanted was on my end. Very dreamer-esque of me.

Thanks again!


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## Llyralen

Scoobyscoob said:


> Do you, Llyralen? Do you really? Also, I barely know anything about you so I don't know you so I wouldn't ever claim to understand your racism either. 😉


Well I didn’t mean to send that. I was going to think about how to explain it better before I sent that but I picked up my phone and my thumb was trigger-happy. My racism, though? Hmm. Lol. Let’s get back to the subject. 

Here’s how I was thinking to describe it. You know how sometimes your first function is a blind spot? Like it’s so much a part of you that it’s hard to understand when you are applying it because it’a just so automatically applied? This was one of those cases. So you said “Te is just logic”. But it’s actually a lot more. It’s a standard of action for the culture and stuff like that. But where you might apply it and not even know you are, I’m applying something else, a different way of acting and a different world view. It’s not that Te isn’t a valid thing to apply there, but it’s not the only thing that can be applied there. And sometimes you don’t even know you are applying it. But other people know because we would act differently in the same situation. So I can see you blindly using it where you might not be able to. I’m pretty sure everyone’s first function is like this to some degree or another but it takes effort and questions to understand what other people might be thinking and to see if that might be just as valid to the situation for them or why the Te-logic that seems so obviously the thing to do... might NOt be the thing for them to do as it would mess other things up in their life. What things? You have to ask a lot of questions. It takes effort to get off the Te-highway and look around.


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## Scoobyscoob

Llyralen said:


> Well I didn’t mean to send that. I was going to think about how to explain it better before I sent that but I picked up my phone and my thumb was trigger-happy. My racism, though? Hmm. Lol. Let’s get back to the subject.
> 
> Here’s how I was thinking to describe it. You know how sometimes your first function is a blind spot? Like it’s so much a part of you that it’s hard to understand when you are applying it because it’a just so automatically applied? This was one of those cases. So you said “Te is just logic”. But it’s actually a lot more. It’s a standard of action for the culture and stuff like that. But where you might apply it and not even know you are, I’m applying something else, a different way of acting and a different world view. It’s not that Te isn’t a valid thing to apply there, but it’s not the only thing that can be applied there. And sometimes you don’t even know you are applying it. But other people know because we would act differently in the same situation. So I can see you blindly using it where you might not be able to. I’m pretty sure everyone’s first function is like this to some degree or another but it takes effort and questions to understand what other people might be thinking and to see if that might be just as valid to the situation for them or why the Te-logic that seems so obviously the thing to do... might NOt be the thing for them to do as it would mess other things up in their life. What things? You have to ask a lot of questions. It takes effort to get off the Te-highway and look around.


Is it really Te though when a military person says something like that though? Have you ever seen someone try jumping in front of a speeding vehicle only to get run over without so much as slowing down to see who they ran over? As someone who has been trampled in a crowd before due to terrorism, it's an unpleasant reality. You cover your head and neck and hope everyone who were in front of you but are now behind you, care enough to not step all over you.


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## Llyralen

impulsenine said:


> As a Ti-Ne user I am not only interested in seeing the other side of the coin but I want to see them all, to feel them with my hands, to see which is the best and why, then (that's where putting Ti-Ne at work kicks in) I take the knowledge I have accumulated and I manage to build a mold capable of creating a coin that encompasses all the good elements of the ones I turned on all sides and get rid of the bad ones.


.

I want to believe you about your curiosity, but you haven’t even asked me any questions and there have been plenty of concepts that I’ve brought up that I would expect to see some curiosity about. Its okay to be any type. I just wondered if you want to know what I am seeing and how I experience. So far this doesn’t check out.



> Naturally, I know what it's like because I interact daily with Feeling people. Do you think I could interact if I didn't know?


Absolutely I think people interact daily and do not understand the depth or experience of others that is vastly different to their own. We walk around in an illusion of assumption. It gets us so far, but there is a lot more to go that MBTI can be useful for. This is where almost all of my questions on PerC go towards plus some fun games. I really do want to understand everything people experience. I will look at your others posts and see what I think, you would come to me for my conclusions, but I think you might think you’re far enough along to not want to. That is up to you.



> Infinitely, if you are more concerned with labels and what cognitive functions I use or what I don't know what ENTP do or wether or not I have a preference for Perceiving and to what extent.
> 
> Rather, you should focus on what you really want, develop the subject, because probably people does not offer detailed advice because you do not offer a detailed situation either.


.

Yes I came to that conclusion myself about the specifics and details. I didn’t think about it when I posed my question. And what I really want is for people to discuss their experiences, partially so that I can interact better and partially to see if communication and understanding can happen. It’s a big gulf, but the thread has been useful anyway in showing me many people’s opinions. I also asked for STJ emotional experience, which was all sort of an impulse question after getting excited by witnessing a pattern— and this shows my own type then doesn’t it? Ne plus Fi. We really want to know everything about the human condition.



> Later edit: Well, it's no wonder that an SJ perceives your unconventionality as ingratitude. If you act like that, it's clear to them. Unconventionality is not for everyone, you have to be confident about it. Otherwise they feel that and you are perceived either as inauthentic, or as ingratitude or ... as you want, and it has nothing to do with SJ. It's just that they see that faster, probably.
> 
> And from the series: judging by what we say on a forum, I can say that you are not unconventional at all.
> I think you should look for the real problem. That's definitely not it.


So the true crime to you is not acting with confidence? And if you don’t act confident then you deserve to be thought of as ungrateful or “whatever”else someone wants to think? You’re so interesting!

I think something you deleted said that you thought “The type you (meaning Llyralen) subscribe to has ruined the world due to lack of action?” Something like that. Would you please elaborate on that for me, preferably in Ne style? 

We would have to define unconventional, but Ne doms can’t help but do things their way, confidence or none. And there is no deserving or undeserving in any of that and confidence actually doesn’t determine any ability, but that argument is for a different day. 

The different values here, why you are saying what you are, etc. i guess you can take MBTI out of a discussion but then the WHY gets taken out as well and the discussion ends a lot earlier with no deeper understanding of human kind but only personal mutual disagreement and status quo. MBTI kind of gives a “Mindful listening” technique to discussions.


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## incision

Llyralen said:


> Thank you for replying and for clarifying that you didn’t expect me to do what they wanted and also don’t expect me to lie. What you’re saying makes good sense. I think at the beginning when they were starting to realize that I was going to do what I thought was best and not take advice that this kind of tactic would have helped— if I had not expected them to see my point or understand me. It would not have explained how I see things or the motivations I have, but it would have given them whatever they needed by way of feeling respected and still made the point that my decisions were my own decisions to make— to a degree that would have been more acceptable?
> A good tactic for work too, if needed.
> 
> I talked to my husband about what you said. He said “I took too much of the blame for everything”. Which was very true. It wasn’t logical at all how he was the scape goat for everything and how that somehow worked to placate them and yet if they truly had believed that he had done all the stuff they placed onto him then that’s not even someone who I would associate with... so I never could understand how that worked like a charm. I started to get really furious at the pressure of what he was supposed to take on.
> 
> Anyway, I don’t know if the “I will try that if mine fails” would have worked enough for me to feel free and honest and understood— things I want in any relationship. I know their other kids get away with a lot by not being completely honest about what they will do and then the parents readjust (kind of) to what is actually happening once the real actions become apparent but then they re-state their wishes and still feel that their kids are listening to their advice. The appearance seems to be the important thing? Hmm, this is all kind of making me feel a bit better about what we actually did and is shooting down Ideas of what I could have done differently (brings peace). I don’t think I can live with the appearance of being controlled either.
> 
> We haven’t talked about the perceived ingratitude, but all of these posts help me see how obvious what STJs wanted was to others and how maybe even impossible the type of relationship that I’d wanted was on my end. Very dreamer-esque of me.
> 
> Thanks again!


So that you also understand where I'm coming from, my advice is premised on the assumption (perhaps presumption?) that his parents are coming from a decent and loving parenting perspective. Having experienced STJs who've meant the best for me and ones that were all about control, the former have been treated with a similar level of respect and caring concern that they gave to me and the latter, a hard line in the sand attitude. Your lives are your own where one size doesn't fit every situation or person. That said, they are your husband's parents so if he wants a relationship with his parents, it's actually his main responsibility to peel them back as an equal to them (adult to adults) if it's all about control where your role is to back him up. Parents are less likely to take pushback from their daughter-in-law (their perception will be that you're the bad influence on their previously dutiful son), than from their now adult son.


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## Llyralen

incision said:


> So that you also understand where I'm coming from, my advice is premised on the assumption (perhaps presumption?) that his parents are coming from a decent and loving parenting perspective. Having experienced STJs who've meant the best for me and ones that were all about control, the former have been treated with a similar level of respect and caring concern that they gave to me and the latter, a hard line in the sand attitude. Your lives are your own where one size doesn't fit every situation or person. That said, they are your husband's parents so if he wants a relationship with his parents, it's actually his main responsibility to peel them back as an equal to them (adult to adults) if it's all about control where your role is to back him up. Parents are less likely to take pushback from their daughter-in-law (their perception will be that you're the bad influence on their previously dutiful son), than from their now adult son.


Definitely. I kind of stayed quieter when I could. These are his parents. Some things I couldn’t stay quiet when whatever they wanted was directed at me like how to raise the kids. I think they mean well, but the need for control is really strong and they have hardly any skills or faith or knowledge of relationships without control. It might be because it’s all an STJ echo-chamber, it might have been deeper fears, I don’t know. On the outside technically they should be proud of their son and he did everything our society expected of him. On the inside the relationships they make are about tangible or financial leverage for control and don’t actually seem to have anything to do with actual success or well-being. And actually they did choose control over having no relationship at all, but I think it’s because they can’t imagine having a relationship without negotiation power. She’s a ESTJ E 8. He is a ISTJ e 9. It makes sense from that Enneagram standpoint too , I think. Their other kids are also ESTJ and ISTJ. Anyway.... so nice to talk to you. Good luck for you in everything as well.


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## DOGSOUP

When it comes to ingratitude, I'd imagine this happening whenever anyone tries to "provide" from their base function, and the other person rejects that (attitude or function) by default.

I experience this when I am trying to give people (granted, often unwanted) advice and they don't want to hear it, want to find out the hard way, lol. This just becomes a moment for me to step back from those people, and trust that the right people who will be more responsive or even SEEK OUT my advice come to me instead.

In terms of relationships, it's very close to: Oh, my input here isn't wanted. So what am I doing here? Do I question myself, or the other person (i.e. paint them as some ungrateful weasel).

With the "caretakers" it can be as simple as acts of service/emotional labour not being wanted in the first place. I have seen this a lot lately, people resisting certain type of help when it does not come in the right "form". Or if they've made a lot of effort so you could have a certain standard of living, that they may have wanted for themselves, rejecting that in search of something novel could indeed be "ungrateful" from a practical point of view. Just the first example that comes to mind.

BTW there used to be some really cool ISTJs here back in the days. Doubt they are active anymore.


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## Llyralen

DOGSOUP said:


> When it comes to ingratitude, I'd imagine this happening whenever anyone tries to "provide" from their base function, and the other person rejects that (attitude or function) by default.
> 
> I experience this when I am trying to give people (granted, often unwanted) advice and they don't want to hear it, want to find out the hard way, lol. This just becomes a moment for me to step back from those people, and trust that the right people who will be more responsive or even SEEK OUT my advice come to me instead.
> 
> In terms of relationships, it's very close to: Oh, my input here isn't wanted. So what am I doing here? Do I question myself, or the other person (i.e. paint them as some ungrateful weasel).
> 
> With the "caretakers" it can be as simple as acts of service/emotional labour not being wanted in the first place. I have seen this a lot lately, people resisting certain type of help when it does not come in the right "form". Or if they've made a lot of effort so you could have a certain standard of living, that they may have wanted for themselves, rejecting that in search of something novel could indeed be "ungrateful" from a practical point of view. Just the first example that comes to mind.
> 
> BTW there used to be some really cool ISTJs here back in the days. Doubt they are active anymore.


Thank you! This is what I’d hoped for to be able to understand better. 

Yes! It would be very sad if we lost our cool ISTJs. Just a year ago some really cool ISTJs were here. @grumpytiger and @Librarian I must not have their name exactly right to flag them... or they erased their account? Nooo!

I do wonder if this question is actually more Te or Enneagram 8-related except that with the S comes the material part of it. Not that ENTJs aren’t somewhat material. Lol. How else to count objective success?

Thank you so much for explaining your side of this possible interaction. I think from my side it’s a matter of what they are offering comes at a price... it comes with expectations and conditions. I don’t know if you feel that when you offer advice? My STJ in-laws do. That’s pressure that I don’t want in a caring relationship. Also, how would I feel about myself if I wasn’t able to make my own way? When I make my own way then I am dependent on no one and answer to no one but myself... I can see where that takes some Enneagram 8s to a place where they think there isnt even a relationship. For me, though, everything that happens in a relationship should be done willingly and mostly without thought of return, but I know that might be a stretch for non- NFPs?

I heard an Enneagram 8 saying that she didn’t retire when planned and worked longer because she couldn’t imagine her relationships with her kids with them not coming to ask for things from her and she worried she would lose those relationships when she had no negotiation power.
I was pretty shocked by that. I’d never known that negotiation power had anything to do with keeping relationships. To me the negotiation power she was talking about is labeled as “control” which is never seen as a good thing in a relationship to me let alone THE relationship itself. I basically see the material and monetary negotiations of my husband’s parents with their kids as being separate from the relationship of family. Almost as if they are asking us to see them as non-parents for the moment in order to do some kind of banking deal. They always asked for interest from their kids so it’s easy to see it as solely a business venture for them, but for me I was taught by my family to never mix business and family and I was like “I basically want nothing but the relationship with them.” It seems wrong to me to be dependent at all in any way. And they strongly want their grown kids to be dependent on them in multiple ways and they have even said things to my husband like “It’s bothering me that I don’t have something to hold over your head.” 

Relationships for me are about feeling safe to be myself (involving acceptance and freedom) and sharing feelings and deeper layers of myself together and I think the 8’s partner relationship might involve feelings more like this. I think an 8 is often very devoted to their partner, but all other relationships seem to be seen as some sort of tit for tat and I doubt that they think their personality alone or the ties of mother/father child alone would form the “glue” of the relationship. Friendships might also have more to do with peer competition and I don’t know what? Maybe the feelings freely given and some tit for tat with their partner only? But for me every close relationship involves freedom of choice and unconditional love and without it it seems like a toxic relationship to me. There is no exchange of goods or negotiation power except through feelings, the fear of losing someone because you care about them. Very different, I understand. Shockingly different. And I’ve had to tell enneagram 3s (my mother is one) that she is loved just for herself alone, not for anything she has done or could do and that is a hard sell. That’s a hard one for 3s to believe, let alone 8s.

None of us really make our own way without approval from others on some level, but I don’t want my family or friend relationships to involve any conditions or negotiations. In my worldview of relationships anyway.

What is your reaction on this? Am i in left field? Is it experienced differently? What if you had nothing to give and were still loved? Not really even comfortable to talk about? Let me know, though, please, I’m very curious.


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## dulcinea

I might be missing something in OP. Are they thinking you ungrateful because you tend to have other ways of expressing gratitude other than saying "thanks"? or because these people in question expect more than a mere "thank you."

I think on the one hand, saying "thank you" is a reasonable expectation when someone does something for someone else. On the other hand, even if you don't even fulfill that expectation it doesn't necessarily give anyone the right to dictate the behavior of a grown adult. 

But if they're expecting more than a "thanks", than it sounds like a somewhat unreasonable expectation, and does as much harm to that individual's emotional well being as it does to the peace of mind of others. My mom is like this. She has super specific expectations of what constitutes gratitude or concern for her, and if they fail to do things specific things she expects, she assumes they don't care. I try to explain to her, why that's not the case, but she can't seem to shake her specific expectations for the behavior of others.

Either way, there isn't really much you can do about it. The challenge of living among people with differing personalities and tendencies is we always have to make an effort to understand each other, but I appreciate how it's way harder when you're the one making the effort to understand other people, but they're not returning the favor.


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## Llyralen

dulcinea said:


> I might be missing something in OP. Are they thinking you ungrateful because you tend to have other ways of expressing gratitude other than saying "thanks"? or because these people in question expect more than a mere "thank you."
> 
> I think on the one hand, saying "thank you" is a reasonable expectation when someone does something for someone else. On the other hand, even if you don't even fulfill that expectation it doesn't necessarily give anyone the right to dictate the behavior of a grown adult.
> 
> But if they're expecting more than a "thanks", than it sounds like a somewhat unreasonable expectation, and does as much harm to that individual's emotional well being as it does to the peace of mind of others. My mom is like this. She has super specific expectations of what constitutes gratitude or concern for her, and if they fail to do things specific things she expects, she assumes they don't care. I try to explain to her, why that's not the case, but she can't seem to shake her specific expectations for the behavior of others.
> 
> Either way, there isn't really much you can do about it. The challenge of living among people with differing personalities and tendencies is we always have to make an effort to understand each other, but I appreciate how it's way harder when you're the one making the effort to understand other people, but they're not returning the favor.


I always say thank you. I am an appreciative person...i think most people think and say verbal appreciation and attentiveness are two of my strongest qualities. 

The problem is that when their expectations aren’t met, when advice is not followed and when advice is not asked for and basically when a certain level of control (their control of my decisions) is not happening then they feel I am ungrateful. I thought this was just something between them and me, but some discussions last week with some others showed me that some other people feel that when people are not following conventions then they are ungrateful, so I saw a pattern and thought maybe I could understand better how that response is being experienced by those who see others as being unconventional. For me understanding the cascade of thought and emotion helps me to know what to say to prevent misunderstandings. 

To be very clear I am very grateful to my husband’s family for the following:
—Producing my husband, the love of my life. 
—Their intentions given their world view and skills. They feel they are very just and generous. I really do appreciate their intentions given their perception. They are not trying to be malicious and they are far from being people who are half-assed about things. 
— They are consistent once they establish a way of interacting so at least they are not randomly unreasonable. At least they are never two-faced. 
—They are very honest. Thank heavens. 
— In the past they have given me gifts on special occasions. I am not ungrateful for these.


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## dulcinea

Llyralen said:


> I always say thank you. I am an appreciative person...i think most people think and say verbal appreciation and attentiveness are two of my strongest qualities.
> 
> The problem is that when their expectations aren’t met, when advice is not followed and when advice is not asked for and basically when a certain level of control (their control of my decisions) is not happening then they feel I am ungrateful. I thought this was just something between them and me, but some discussions last week with some others showed me that some other people feel that when people are not following conventions then they are ungrateful, so I saw a pattern and thought maybe I could understand better how that response is being experienced by those who see others as being unconventional. For me understanding the cascade of thought and emotion helps me to know what to say to prevent misunderstandings.
> 
> To be very clear I am very grateful to my husband’s family for the following:
> —Producing my husband, the love of my life.
> —Their intentions given their world view and skills. They feel they are very just and generous. I really do appreciate their intentions given their perception. They are not trying to be malicious and they are far from being people who are half-assed about things.
> — They are consistent once they establish a way of interacting so at least they are not randomly unreasonable. At least they are never two-faced.
> —They are very honest. Thank heavens.
> — In the past they have given me gifts on special occasions. I am not ungrateful for these.


Ah. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, it sounds like super specific expectations. 
I don't think I'm an NP type specifically, but I've been on the receiving end of flack for being rather unconventional, myself.


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## DOGSOUP

Llyralen said:


> Thank you so much for explaining your side of this possible interaction. I think from my side it’s a matter of what they are offering comes at a price... it comes with expectations and conditions. I don’t know if you feel that when you offer advice? My STJ in-laws do.


Hmm... I don't think I'd be in a position to make it conditional, like expect something in return (not to say I don't appreciate feedback or advice returned, I do enjoy it). There might be an expectation that my advice is taken seriously into consideration, even if the person chooses not to act in it. Which I obviously understand, but it feels bad if it is dismissed frivolously.


> That’s pressure that I don’t want in a caring relationship. Also, how would I feel about myself if I wasn’t able to make my own way? When I make my own way then I am dependent on no one and answer to no one but myself... I can see where that takes some Enneagram 8s to a place where they think there isnt even a relationship. For me, though, everything that happens in a relationship should be done willingly and mostly without thought of return, but I know that might be a stretch for non- NFPs?


I do understand what you are saying! On one hand, I often see people craving that dependency in ways that are strange to me (whether financial, domestic etc.) and its not just 8s. I also don't want to answer to no one, but simultaneously want to be with people who guard for my weakness and whom I can help to do the same. Still there is that idea of give and take, but I think on a more personable, intimate level that for me is CRUCIAL to form close relationships. So I think I am somewhere between you and your in-laws.


> I heard an Enneagram 8 saying that she didn’t retire when planned and worked longer because she couldn’t imagine her relationships with her kids with them not coming to ask for things from her and she worried she would lose those relationships when she had no negotiation power.
> I was pretty shocked by that. I’d never known that negotiation power had anything to do with keeping relationships. To me the negotiation power she was talking about is labeled as “control” which is never seen as a good thing in a relationship to me let alone THE relationship itself. I basically see the material and monetary negotiations of my husband’s parents with their kids as being separate from the relationship of family. Almost as if they are asking us to see them as non-parents for the moment in order to do some kind of banking deal. They always asked for interest from their kids so it’s easy to see it as solely a business venture for them, but for me I was taught by my family to never mix business and family and I was like “I basically want nothing but the relationship with them.” It seems wrong to me to be dependent at all in any way. And they strongly want their grown kids to be dependent on them in multiple ways and they have even said things to my husband like “It’s bothering me that I don’t have something to hold over your head.”


That is pretty troubling, and I agree with you: mixing business and family has the potential to end disastrously, and this the sort of display of control is more or less a red flag. And correct me if I am wrong, but for Fi especially would not divide relationships between business and personal. I think it would be a challenge for most people, honestly, because at the end of the day, one side starts weighting more than the other, and it will bleed over to the "other" relationship as well.


> Relationships for me are about feeling safe to be myself (involving acceptance and freedom) and sharing feelings and deeper layers of myself together and I think the 8’s partner relationship might involve feelings more like this. I think an 8 is often very devoted to their partner, but all other relationships seem to be seen as some sort of tit for tat and I doubt that they think their personality alone or the ties of mother/father child alone would form the “glue” of the relationship. Friendships might also have more to do with peer competition and I don’t know what? Maybe the feelings freely given and some tit for tat with their partner only? But for me every close relationship involves freedom of choice and unconditional love and without it it seems like a toxic relationship to me. There is no exchange of goods or negotiation power except through feelings, the fear of losing someone because you care about them. Very different, I understand. Shockingly different.


I think the issue there is whether the 8 has the same footing as other people. Then the competitiveness, tit for that, could work (and I sort of enjoy this quality to some extent). But when in parental position, the dynamic is completely different, as you described earlier.


> None of us really make our own way without approval from others on some level, but I don’t want my family or friend relationships to involve any conditions or negotiations. In my worldview of relationships anyway.


Yeah, I don't think this is unreasonable at all. But it might be very idealistic, especially when facing people who think in terms of duty etc. To me it almost seems that one person always does/feels more in relationships (usually no one wants to be that person). It is very challenging to get to that point you describe. But I wonder if you find it easier to reach that point than most people?


> And I’ve had to tell enneagram 3s (my mother is one) that she is loved just for herself alone, not for anything she has done or could do and that is a hard sell. That’s a hard one for 3s to believe, let alone 8s.
> 
> What is your reaction on this? Am i in left field? Is it experienced differently? What if you had nothing to give and were still loved? Not really even comfortable to talk about? Let me know, though, please, I’m very curious.


Hmm yeah.... I don't really see that happening for me and I am not sure if I really want to experience it either. It would almost render me powerless.
Whenever I've been 'loved' without me really contributing the way I wanted to/should have, it's been pretty unpleasant. Mostly because I never felt SEEN by the other person for what I truly was.


----------



## Llyralen

DOGSOUP said:


> Hmm... I don't think I'd be in a position to make it conditional, like expect something in return (not to say I don't appreciate feedback or advice returned, I do enjoy it). There might be an expectation that my advice is taken seriously into consideration, even if the person chooses not to act in it. Which I obviously understand, but it feels bad if it is dismissed frivolously.
> 
> I do understand what you are saying! On one hand, I often see people craving that dependency in ways that are strange to me (whether financial, domestic etc.) and its not just 8s. I also don't want to answer to no one, but simultaneously want to be with people who guard for my weakness and whom I can help to do the same. Still there is that idea of give and take, but I think on a more personable, intimate level that for me is CRUCIAL to form close relationships. So I think I am somewhere between you and your in-laws.
> 
> That is pretty troubling, and I agree with you: mixing business and family has the potential to end disastrously, and this the sort of display of control is more or less a red flag. And correct me if I am wrong, but for Fi especially would not divide relationships between business and personal. I think it would be a challenge for most people, honestly, because at the end of the day, one side starts weighting more than the other, and it will bleed over to the "other" relationship as well.
> 
> I think the issue there is whether the 8 has the same footing as other people. Then the competitiveness, tit for that, could work (and I sort of enjoy this quality to some extent). But when in parental position, the dynamic is completely different, as you described earlier.
> 
> Yeah, I don't think this is unreasonable at all. But it might be very idealistic, especially when facing people who think in terms of duty etc. To me it almost seems that one person always does/feels more in relationships (usually no one wants to be that person). It is very challenging to get to that point you describe. But I wonder if you find it easier to reach that point than most people?
> 
> Hmm yeah.... I don't really see that happening for me and I am not sure if I really want to experience it either. It would almost render me powerless.
> Whenever I've been 'loved' without me really contributing the way I wanted to/should have, it's been pretty unpleasant. Mostly because I never felt SEEN by the other person for what I truly was.


This is just the kind of conversation that I was hopping for!

The conversation is also helping me define for myself that the problem wasn’t with and STJ iversus NFP clash in general, but probably just the particular controlling behavior of these particular STJs in their particular way. And really I dont have enough family and interpersonal experience to be able to say that.

This also helps me define my thoughts better about what they were doing that really was problematic. Making their kids take loans from them when we didn’t need to just in order for them to establish parental control, for instance. And I have to re-define something I said above, because it’s not like I shouldn’t take help or a boost from parents when offered. My husband’s birth mother gave us a boost of $10,000 when we bought a house and that was very helpful and very appreciated and welcome. It’s more that his parents really do use finances to monitor and control their children’s lives. For instance. Both of their other kids got $30,000 from them when they bought houses, something they had promised us too, but never gave because of reasons they kept making up, but the real reason I think now is that they felt integral to the decision-making process with their other kids. They took their grown children (their kids are all in their 30’s) to find houses and weigh cost/benefit each time these kids found houses. I think it’s reasonable for me even if I weren’t an Ne dom to feel as a grown woman that I really didn’t need or want extra help in choosing what would fit my budget and didn’t need their approval to make choices. I think most people would see those apron-strings as being a bit too thick between kids and parents. There was other stuff too, like that they were choosing the career path for their kids. It caused major problems when my husband changed his career path for them.

A few questions that I’d like to ask. Could you tell me more about how you see relationships between parents and children and maybe just more of what you were thinking about your views about parenting. I just think I’d like to understand your perspective more on that. I have a very appreciated ENTJ brother in law married to my sister and they have a darling 2 year old and I love seeing him be a dad and my INTP sister a mom.

I think it is very important to feel seen. That has been huge for me, so I’m really glad that you brought that up. Feeling seen is just so important. I will think about that more. How to make sure 8s and 3s feel seen. With 8s usually the truth-telling part of me is accepted, but my truth-teller “be real” (you’d think I’m a 4 but I’m a 7) parts are usually a threat to 3. Anyway... I will make sure to think about this! We want to do our best for people, don’t we? I will think, but also do you know of ways people help you feel seen? 

I really appreciate the stretching involved for both of us to understand, and that the stretching is able to happen! Thank you so much for responding to my questions!


----------



## DOGSOUP

Llyralen said:


> This is just the kind of conversation that I was hopping for!
> 
> The conversation is also helping me define for myself that the problem wasn’t with and STJ iversus NFP clash in general, but probably just the particular controlling behavior of these particular STJs in their particular way. And really I dont have enough family and interpersonal experience to be able to say that.
> 
> This also helps me define my thoughts better about what they were doing that really was problematic. Making their kids take loans from them when we didn’t need to just in order for them to establish parental control, for instance. And I have to re-define something I said above, because it’s not like I shouldn’t take help or a boost from parents when offered. My husband’s birth mother gave us a boost of $10,000 when we bought a house and that was very helpful and very appreciated and welcome. It’s more that his parents really do use finances to monitor and control their children’s lives. For instance. Both of their other kids got $30,000 from them when they bought houses, something they had promised us too, but never gave because of reasons they kept making up, but the real reason I think now is that they felt integral to the decision-making process with their other kids. They took their grown children (their kids are all in their 30’s) to find houses and weigh cost/benefit each time these kids found houses. I think it’s reasonable for me even if I weren’t an Ne dom to feel as a grown woman that I really didn’t need or want extra help in choosing what would fit my budget and didn’t need their approval to make choices. I think most people would see those apron-strings as being a bit too thick between kids and parents. There was other stuff too, like that they were choosing the career path for their kids. It caused major problems when my husband changed his career path for them.
> 
> A few questions that I’d like to ask. Could you tell me more about how you see relationships between parents and children and maybe just more of what you were thinking about your views about parenting. I just think I’d like to understand your perspective more on that. I have a very appreciated ENTJ brother in law married to my sister and they have a darling 2 year old and I love seeing him be a dad and my INTP sister a mom.
> 
> I think it is very important to feel seen. That has been huge for me, so I’m really glad that you brought that up. Feeling seen is just so important. I will think about that more. How to make sure 8s and 3s feel seen. With 8s usually the truth-telling part of me is accepted, but my truth-teller “be real” (you’d think I’m a 4 but I’m a 7) parts are usually a threat to 3. Anyway... I will make sure to think about this! We want to do our best for people, don’t we? I will think, but also do you know of ways people help you feel seen?
> 
> I really appreciate the stretching involved for both of us to understand, and that the stretching is able to happen! Thank you so much for responding to my questions!


Great, I'm glad if this has clarified things for you!

I tend to pay a lot of attention to parental control. Haven't experienced it directly myself, never was pressured career wise, instead was always encouraged to pursue my own interests & do my own thing etc. which is why it straight up weirds me out to see it in different forms, be it too much interest in the child's life, overt monitoring, codependency etc. I've seen enough of it that if I ever have children of my own, I would be super sensitive to making mistakes in that regard more than anything.

This is something I give a lot thought to... having seen how huge parental influence can be, even when beneficial and well-intentioned, and especially when it chains people to think in certain ways, keeps them indebted to their parents, OR the other way around. Supportive parenting includes the ability to give space at a certain point, but I also see families that have nearly no ties at all when the kids grow up. Maybe exactly because that parental power was leveraged against the child(ren) at some point, and they got fed up with it.

As for being seen, I tend to give off 'wrong' or at least conflicting impressions to people. While that can be very safe it can feel very wrong for _me_ to feel that way about myself. I have tendency to gravitate toward darling ISFJs who seems to always be there for me, and whenever feel 'accused' by other people, they are there to quietly shake their head and go "that's not who you are". That makes me go 'oh, you think you know me better than I know myself?' but in a good way, lol, if that makes sense. I don't know enough about my possible enneagram to know if it is related to that. In a way it fulfills my need for external validation, just from highly introspective/perceptive people!

I think it comes from prolonged exposure to the other, and learning to trust that while they see us differently than we see ourselves, they could actually be more right about us than we are. Honestly, just the fact that you are thinking about it and wanting this for others to be seen can sometimes be enough. I suppose it could somehow undermine the way 3s think (I guess, that image must be maintained to be loved, and saying that the image is not necessary brings that whole construct down). There's probably a fear many people have relating to the idea of being seen. Similar in a way to 'finding yourself'. Not everyone wants to be 'found'. Ah, it's tricky. not sure if any of this helps.


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## speckle

I didn't read this whole thread (I think it got derailed...) but Llyralen I appreciate what you tried to do here. I am also an ENFP who came here looking for more insight on how to get along better with SJs.

My best friend and my mom are ESFJs and I actually find that type really easy going and pleasant to get along with. They are able to understand that I am just different from them and kind of laugh with me about it and appreciate me for my strengths.

I actually get along quite well with ISTJ too, we complement each other well.

ISFJ is the type I am currently struggling with. I related a lot to another comment in this thread where the ISFJ got angry and threatened when the ENFP asked her to explain her reasoning. I am experiencing this too. And the truth is I am angry too. It's hard for me to be willing to work with someone who isn't willing to meet me halfway. At least that's how it feels to me.

I think the ISFJ wants me to just trust her. Due to her experience and her position on the project, she thinks I should just trust her. But what she is saying does not make sense to me, I frequently think she completely does not understand the project and is missing major things. I cannot just trust what someone says if it does not make sense to me. I will always give them a chance to make it make sense though...but that just makes her angry.

Ce la vie. You can only do so much if they aren't willing to meet you halfway. I've accepted that I am just going to have to find a way to be ok with making her angry. I will always try to be as respectful and kind as I can of course, but needing things to make sense before I will go along with them is a fundamental part of who I am. It's not something I can change for her, and changing it would hurt the project because it is really critically important that we do things that make sense for THIS project and not just mindlessly adopt "best practices" from completely different contexts that don't fit here. (I think that is the roadblock Ne-dom and Si-dom can hit- Ne is more adaptable and can better understand why an "established best practice" from one context doesn't fit in their current context.) I'm not going to ever apologize for being a critical thinker, sorry not sorry. (Critical thinking and not blindly trusting authority is a core value of mine that is getting triggered here I now see.)

It's important not to generalize too much based on type though. It is just one aspect of a person. That's why I included the other examples- I get along great with some other SJs, just not this one I'm struggling with right now. In other contexts I've had great experiences with ISFJs too. Cognitive functions are contributing to the friction, but they aren't the only factor. And if this ISFJ shared core values with me, the interactions would probably go quite differently! Core values aren't defined by type.


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## Llyralen

speckle said:


> I didn't read this whole thread (I think it got derailed...) but Llyralen I appreciate what you tried to do here. I am also an ENFP who came here looking for more insight on how to get along better with SJs.
> 
> My best friend and my mom are ESFJs and I actually find that type really easy going and pleasant to get along with. They are able to understand that I am just different from them and kind of laugh with me about it and appreciate me for my strengths.
> 
> I actually get along quite well with ISTJ too, we complement each other well.
> 
> ISFJ is the type I am currently struggling with. I related a lot to another comment in this thread where the ISFJ got angry and threatened when the ENFP asked her to explain her reasoning. I am experiencing this too. And the truth is I am angry too. It's hard for me to be willing to work with someone who isn't willing to meet me halfway. At least that's how it feels to me.
> 
> I think the ISFJ wants me to just trust her. Due to her experience and her position on the project, she thinks I should just trust her. But what she is saying does not make sense to me, I frequently think she completely does not understand the project and is missing major things. I cannot just trust what someone says if it does not make sense to me. I will always give them a chance to make it make sense though...but that just makes her angry.
> 
> Ce la vie. You can only do so much if they aren't willing to meet you halfway. I've accepted that I am just going to have to find a way to be ok with making her angry. I will always try to be as respectful and kind as I can of course, but needing things to make sense before I will go along with them is a fundamental part of who I am. It's not something I can change for her, and changing it would hurt the project because it is really critically important that we do things that make sense for THIS project and not just mindlessly adopt "best practices" from completely different contexts that don't fit here. (I think that is the roadblock Ne-dom and Si-dom can hit- Ne is more adaptable and can better understand why an "established best practice" from one context doesn't fit in their current context.) I'm not going to ever apologize for being a critical thinker, sorry not sorry. (Critical thinking and not blindly trusting authority is a core value of mine that is getting triggered here I now see.)
> 
> It's important not to generalize too much based on type though. It is just one aspect of a person. That's why I included the other examples- I get along great with some other SJs, just not this one I'm struggling with right now. In other contexts I've had great experiences with ISFJs too. Cognitive functions are contributing to the friction, but they aren't the only factor. And if this ISFJ shared core values with me, the interactions would probably go quite differently! Core values aren't defined by type.


Wow this thread....I'm looking at how much energy I put into it and wishing I'd written another chapter in my book instead, except that there were good interactions and things learned or better confirmed anyway. @incision needs more thanks. There was a lot of great insight from you, Incision and some good discussions with others. 

Okay, so at work what I've found with ISFJs is that they are likely using a step by step recipe in their minds for how to do something, but the "why" part of it isn't so much in their thoughts and so they don't want to say "I don't know. This is just how it works!" I guess it would be like asking "Why do you cook the meat first for the lasagna when it's going to be baked anyway?" Or something. It's so the meat gets really cooked all the way through, I guess... or maybe because that's how it is always been done? But "This is how it works. We do these steps and it works. This is what I've been taught to do and now I'm trying to teach you to do." might be what she is thinking. I don't know, maybe she has a lot of insight on it all but just can't express it well? Or she is following proceedure? But I do find that if I change the recipe of how to do something with my ISFJ secretary, I need to write it down in steps like a recipe. I can also tell her why I'm changing it, but that might not stick in her head on what she actually needs to do later. Thank goodness for her step by step mind so I don't have to do that stuff. 

It is hard for us with learning from each other because when we ENFPs are trying to learn a system, we really only feel confident if we understand it as a whole and so thats where all our questions are going to be is to understand "why?" and to understand what affects what. We won't be able to write down a new recipe until we get the whole bird's eye view of the whole thing and others would think giving us a step by step is the easiest way to learn, and it's NOT for us. Not at all. How do I make a difference or even hold it in my brain with a step by step? So it's like we are trying to adapt and sometimes it takes a lot of questions. The more detailed the questions, the more she would probably answer, I'd guess. But I bet in a week if you can keep going, (and think of your past, it has probably been this way) then your brain will have figured out the big picture (probably to where you might want to change things) and hopefully you've won the ISFJ over by then too. Hopefully, right? 
Let us know more. How's it going now?


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## Scoobyscoob

Llyralen said:


> Oh my gosh... no. Don't tell @UniversalIndividual what to do for her situation either. We don't know everything that went into what she said. We don't know her mother. I just don't think you can judge all SJs even from a bunch of bad experiences. Obviously there is a lot of work to do between NPs and SJs.


All I said was @UniversalIndividual shouldn't say such terrible things about her mother, because she might regret it when she's older and when her mother may no longer be around. I wasn't making any insinuations or suggesting any implications, only to be nicer.


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## Scoobyscoob

Hm, I see. Well that's an unpleasant memory. Hahah.


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## Scoobyscoob

@Llyralen Being unconventional isn't viewed as ingratitude. It's the notion of being unconventional as a reason to believe and behave like you're better than others is what'll set most people off. Not just SJs, but pretty much anyone is going to be put off by that.

That's the only time I've seen someone being accused of being ungrateful. When an oblivious person with a lack of self-awareness believed that all of their accomplishments were theirs and theirs alone. Downplaying the role of all the people who had helped that person get to where they are.

But I suppose that's venturing into the difference between being unconventional and being a narcissist.


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## speckle

Llyralen said:


> It is hard for us with learning from each other because when we ENFPs are trying to learn a system, we really only feel confident if we understand it as a whole and so thats where all our questions are going to be is to understand "why?" and to understand what affects what. We won't be able to write down a new recipe until we get the whole bird's eye view of the whole thing and others would think giving us a step by step is the easiest way to learn, and it's NOT for us. Not at all. How do I make a difference or even hold it in my brain with a step by step?


YES that explains it so well! I really appreciate your insight. I'll let you know if anything improves


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## Team MMA

Edited Out because Ramadan. Can not curse.


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## Llyralen

Team MMA said:


> Edited Out because Ramadan. Can not curse.


 Let me know what needs the cursing later… if I deserve some cursing, I will withstand it and hopefully learn to be a better person for it.


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## tarmonk

I didn't have chance to dig into whole thread but as much as I did - what would be a good example of being conventional/unconventional after all? Isn't their meaning more a subjective judgement than an actual thing? Or maybe it's just me who doesn't have such words in my vocabulary. 

There was a lot of fuzz around those terms thus it's hard to tell what I'd think about if someone is un/conventional 

If it means only that someone else is doing things differently than I would - why should it be a problem? But why the other person should then think they're the one who's unconventional not me?


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## Team MMA

I googled conventional, conventional means based on or in accordance with what is generally done or Believed.

Traditional means based on what was done or Believed in past.

i remember SJ as Guardians and Traditional.


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## Llyralen

Team MMA said:


> I googled conventional, conventional means based on or in accordance with what is generally done or Believed.
> 
> Traditional means based on what was done or Believed in past.
> 
> i remember SJ as Guardians and Traditional.


Yeah, I wish I’d never made this thread. I made it in good faith, hoping to better understand and hear experiences, but there is no safety here to do that.

Nowadays, I kind of just take the reaction I’m seeing (which IS something that I observe and not just in my own life, but others) as a matter of course. This is the divide between Si and Ne, guardians of what was versus innovator. Of course there is going to be this gut reaction for those who have planned to hand down their wisdom, or their material goods, or their occupation/practice, or just their sense of what is proper reverence and proper behavior. If a family member is acting like: “that’s great for you, what you’ve been learning your whole life, thank you. But I’ve got a dream to go do something else that you’ve never thought of and what you’re saying is good or offering that has been so important to you and that you’ve worked for years for is not what I’m going to do. I appreciate it, though.” Then there must be in the person who is offering this feeling of rejection of the old or rejection of authority or advice and they probably feel some disrespect from the other as well. There also might be a feeling of a loss on an investment or of a broach of authority. 

I think a lot of assumptions on either side come down to not properly fathoming the depth of the opposite learning styles between SJ and Ne. Learning from experience/repetition plus feedback from role models, versus learning from individually-arrived-at un-tried theory/patterns/connections— It’s a big difference. I don’t think we can even properly imagine how deeply pervasive learning style must be to every aspects of our lives. 

People heavy with Te are also trying to do something helpful for others in their Te way….this all makes sense. It just sucks. It sucks that so much damage can come from all the assumptions and misunderstandings. This is why MBTI could be very helpful— but instead, like this thread shows, sometimes the labels further divide us if we allow prejudice to get in there. Anyway, I’m just going to allow all these natural reactions, but being kind to each other through these differences and giving each other the benefit of the doubt is always going to be important to me.


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## Team MMA

My ISTJ friend Kris did BJJ and I for some reason Hardly did "Karate". I told him all the time he was Soft Fighter because BJJ was Soft and will be. I had developed "a belly" during time so he obviously thought i'm Soft 😅

In the end he told me I'm Hard too, he should be back from Winter-Escape now. I'm of course INFP.


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## Team MMA

I've Empowered Police. So MP will fix bad Inspectors. In KTS ISTJ are Inspectors. SJ generally, Social Justice (Warriors) are attacking everyone, friend and enemy and none of the above. I call SJ Defense, Defense Department.

ESFJ BB. said Military is Playground. Do you think military is Playground? Allah says: I did not make Heaven and Earth while Playing.


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## lww23

I didn't go through every post here but my thoughts are as follows:

1) All the current stereotypes regarding SJs can be said as rooted in the EIEI/IEIE model, as well as a tremendous misunderstanding of Si as a cognitive function. That is why I see merits in Jung's model because it helps address the bias. SJs have judging functions as their dominants: ESTJ - TeSe; ESFJ - FeSe; ISTJ - TiSi; and ISFJ - FiSi. Now, which one of them has dominant Si? None. Being J types, they lead with judging functions. As you can see, their judging (and perceiving S) functions vary, so these SJ types are very different accordingly. They are not people who are always unintelligent, close-minded, obedient, stubborn, etc. There is no definitive image of SJ types. To say, all SJs are like that, basically is to make a sweeping judgment against diverse groups of people.

2) SJs are seen as "Guardians", why? There are various explanations, including stereotypes. In my view, it is because they lead with Judging functions (again, in Jung's model). These types prioritize judging over gathering data. They filter first and then collect. They prefer closure and decisions. They want things to be in order and under control. This can cause them to be prone to close-mindedness but that's only a tendency.

Why are they "Guardians"? First and foremost, there is nothing negative about being guardians. Second, guardians play unique and indispensable roles in society. As we know, change is the constant theme of the universe. Everything changes and nothing stays static. As for human society, change is happening all the time, major changes, minor changes, reforms, revolutions, etc. In my view, SJs and NPs disagree over what way of change is the best. SJs want change to be incremental, and cautious, and they prioritize stability over change. They might favor reforms more than revolutions. Change can go either way, so in the SJ mindset, the priority is to preserve stability and gain more certainty, then proceed to change. NPs, in contrast, might favor change and see change as mostly positive and desirable. NPs are driven by openness and innovation, and tend to be full of ideas. They get bored when things become too stable. NPs want change to happen all the time and prioritize change over the maintainance of stability and order. NPs might make a change not because change is needed but because change is always better than no change/stagnation.

The different approaches to change tend to put NPs and SJs on opposite ends. There is no standard answer for the ongoing debate - Should we prioritize change or stability? As an individual, my view is that I always prefer change so that there will be things to hope for. Life has to have some dynamism, mentally and/or physically, otherwise, it will be like dead water. We live for hope, so we should embrace change. It's better to try (but fail) than not try and know nothing.

For human society at large, however, it is a bit different since we are talking about collective wellbeing. It depends. A closed society will not go further whereas a constantly-changing society will lack a foundation. I do hope that more changes can happen and people should be more open-minded to new things. On the other hand, however, I do not want to see myself living in a revolutionary era.

So, I guess, it is like a spectrum. Extreme/unhealthy SJs are resistant to change (on one end) while extreme/unhealthy NPs will not settle (on the other end). I think most people tend to concentrate on the middle line. In my case, I would put myself on the side of the spectrum that favors more change/innovation. I might have a different opinion when, say, I reach age 70, I guess. Then I might prefer stability.

3) Examples - if you read some history, you will know that Ancient Rome (say, till the end of the Western Empire), was, arguably, a typical SJ society. In contrast, roughly on a global scale, arguably, the world seemed quite NP-leaning from the 1960s till the 2000s.

To summarize, people play different roles in society. Without SJs, humanity might be in a state of revolutions and constant insecurity. Without NPs, humanity might destroy itself in rigidity, authoritarianism, and spiritual suffocation.


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## Retsu

Skimming this thread and learning I want to be a slave owner subjugating the intuitives is really quite the revelation


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## CanaryBat

Llyralen said:


> I have seen a pattern of NP innovation or unconventionality (both come from the same place) being misinterpreted as ingratitude by STJs.
> 
> I think SFJs usually understand that I am coming up with a new way to do something in order to benefit them, although it may be difficult for them to switch gears in the beginning. I can tell SFJs just worry when I act without the group and basically have to determine where my heart is first. They get a history of seeing how my innovations benefit others and then it gets easier.
> 
> If I improve the bottom line productivity and profit margin and am no emotional trouble then I’ve got the backing of the STJ at work.
> 
> But in social situations with family it seems like my independence and doing things differently always gets misinterpreted as ingratitude with STJs. It doesn’t seem to matter how many thank yous or heartfelt emotions of gratitude are obviously displayed by me. Somehow the way I operate (what I notice is it seems to be my independent way of deciding) is labeled as ingratitude. And I’m asking because due to something someone was saying the other day it sounds like maybe most NP actions get interpreted as ingratitude. It’s not just me.
> 
> What can we do about that? Because words like thank you and I really respect and appreciate have not worked. I think there may be an assumption that doing things differently means that what was was not respected?
> 
> Your thoughts SJs will be appreciated very much! And cheers to all of you in this New Year! May it be a good one!


This is my experience exactly, not only in my family but among SJ friends and coworkers, especially STJs. I've had friends who were STJ friends who claim that they've never heard the words "Thank you" out of my mouth, which I know is far from the truth. They also resent my individualistic behavior while denying their own. It seems we can't be long-term friends. I would like to change this but I think there's nothing I can do.


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## Llyralen

CanaryBat said:


> This is my experience exactly, not only in my family but among SJ friends and coworkers, especially STJs. I've had friends who were STJ friends who claim that they've never heard the words "Thank you" out of my mouth, which I know is far from the truth. They also resent my individualistic behavior while denying their own. It seems we can't be long-term friends. I would like to change this but I think there's nothing I can do.


I guess it’s just how it is. It must be tough for the other side too, I’d guess.


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## tanstaafl28

Llyralen said:


> I have seen a pattern of NP innovation or unconventionality (both come from the same place) being misinterpreted as ingratitude by STJs.
> 
> I think SFJs usually understand that I am coming up with a new way to do something in order to benefit them, although it may be difficult for them to switch gears in the beginning. I can tell SFJs just worry when I act without the group and basically have to determine where my heart is first. They get a history of seeing how my innovations benefit others and then it gets easier.
> 
> If I improve the bottom line productivity and profit margin and am no emotional trouble then I’ve got the backing of the STJ at work.
> 
> But in social situations with family it seems like my independence and doing things differently always gets misinterpreted as ingratitude with STJs. It doesn’t seem to matter how many thank yous or heartfelt emotions of gratitude are obviously displayed by me. Somehow the way I operate (what I notice is it seems to be my independent way of deciding) is labeled as ingratitude. And I’m asking because due to something someone was saying the other day it sounds like maybe most NP actions get interpreted as ingratitude. It’s not just me.
> 
> What can we do about that? Because words like thank you and I really respect and appreciate have not worked. I think there may be an assumption that doing things differently means that what was was not respected?
> 
> Your thoughts SJs will be appreciated very much! And cheers to all of you in this New Year! May it be a good one!


Used to drive my ex-wife and mother-in-law crazy. Both of them were SJs.


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## CanaryBat

This has been a very awesome experience for me, but it has gone a little off the rails. Largely thanks to this dialogue, I have come to love being an INFP, and now I have come to the realization that I'm not an INFP but a stinky old INFJ. Lmao, but then I stop laughing... but it makes sense though. I am totally serious that I like INFPs more than the much-touted INFJs. Why? For one thing, they have themselves divided into like 8 subgroups so they can be extra-extra special, which makes me laugh. Then there is the holier-than-thou messiah thing, gag! Grandstanders in every job I've ever had, but stealthy without knowing it. They have no sense of style (you should see my clothes, you would die). Worst of all, they lack the INFP wicked and droll sense of humor. At least on this thread, you guys are the absolute funniest.

I have heard that INFPs are "not smart", which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I recently heard a thing that convinced me that INFPs are the smartest of all, and I am completely serious about this. I read that Fi is the most basic, most fundamental human function, represented by Ceres and the hearth. What could be a better foundation for everything else in life? As the first function that you develop in childhood, it seems like a most excellent choice.

Personally, I am hoping that I turn out to be a very complicated sort of inverted INFJ who turns out to actually be an INFP. That would make me very unique indeed, and a most loving, witty, intelligent, and stylish individual.


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## CanaryBat

By the way, I changed my handle to "prairiedog" and joined the INFJs. I'm leaving CanaryBat as is, just in case I really do get to come back to the INFPs (but I think it's unlikely).


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## Llyralen

CanaryBat said:


> This has been a very awesome experience for me, but it has gone a little off the rails. Largely thanks to this dialogue, I have come to love being an INFP, and now I have come to the realization that I'm not an INFP but a stinky old INFJ. Lmao, but then I stop laughing... but it makes sense though. I am totally serious that I like INFPs more than the much-touted INFJs. Why? For one thing, they have themselves divided into like 8 subgroups so they can be extra-extra special, which makes me laugh. Then there is the holier-than-thou messiah thing, gag! Grandstanders in every job I've ever had, but stealthy without knowing it. They have no sense of style (you should see my clothes, you would die). Worst of all, they lack the INFP wicked and droll sense of humor. At least on this thread, you guys are the absolute funniest.
> 
> I have heard that INFPs are "not smart", which is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I recently heard a thing that convinced me that INFPs are the smartest of all, and I am completely serious about this. I read that Fi is the most basic, most fundamental human function, represented by Ceres and the hearth. What could be a better foundation for everything else in life? As the first function that you develop in childhood, it seems like a most excellent choice.
> 
> Personally, I am hoping that I turn out to be a very complicated sort of inverted INFJ who turns out to actually be an INFP. That would make me very unique indeed, and a most loving, witty, intelligent, and stylish individual.





CanaryBat said:


> By the way, I changed my handle to "prairiedog" and joined the INFJs. I'm leaving CanaryBat as is, just in case I really do get to come back to the INFPs (but I think it's unlikely).


You think you learned all of that from THIS thread? 
By the way, if you’d like, I have questions that my friend and I developed and I think I can tell from the answers to them if someone is NFP or or NFJ or some other type. I feel like it’s very accurate to determine Fi from Ni in NFs Let me know if you are interested, message me directly.


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