# Contempt and Disgust for Male Vulnerability?



## 007phantom (May 1, 2010)

Hi all, 

I've recently been motivated to read up on some books on emotional management and things of that nature. One of them was the book Daring Greatly by Brene Brown. I was surprised to find a concept/observation that I thought to be true in my past which is that of men experiencing contempt from their partners for showing vulnerability. 


So I just wanted to find out if anyone had any experiences that support this? I'm not trying to start up a conflict or anything just trying to get real life opinions on this based on experience because I was a bit shocked to find that this concept from my past was again supported by a text I was reading with the intent of being more in touch with my emotions lol. 


“Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. And men are very smart. They know the risks, and they see the look in our eyes when we’re thinking, C’mon! Pull it together. Man up.” (Brown, 95) 


"I was not prepared to hear over and over from men how the women - the mother, sisters, girlfriends, wives - in their lives are constantly criticizing them for not being open and vulnerable and intimate, all the while they are standing in front of that cramped wizard closet where their men are huddled inside, adjusting the curtain and making sure no one sees in and no one gets out. There was a moment when I was driving home from an interview with a small group of men and thought, Holy shit. I am the patriarchy.Here's the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they're afraid, but the truth is that most women can't stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust."


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## Wellsy (Oct 24, 2011)

My experience has been women are more accepting of vulnerability in me than men, the men that I've chosen to be more vulnerable in certain ways has been based primarily on their degree of socialization towards particular masculine norms.
I think the contrast I see for this is that I get the impression that women do a great deal of emotional support for a lot of men, specifically partners, anecdotes of seeing their boyfriend or husband whose seen as strong in public but has had this big strong man in tears in their arms. If anything it seems a lot of women take on a large burden in their expectation of women taking ona role of emotional nurturers within families and often men unload a lot onto them and no one else while women may find solace in some friends. Similar thing can happen for men as can have some great friends, but depending on variations of gender beliefs and culture of the context and individuals, may be more difficult to find such comfort.
Probably also other elements of vulnerability changing nthings. Its probably easier to be vulnerable with your partner when it doesn't relate as much to the things that underpin elements of your relationship perhaps.
Probably easier for some to be vulnerable in terms of being sad after a funeral than it might be for them to discuss their sex lives and what they enjoy. Or maybe it does relate particularly to what gender beliefs both subscribe to and how the subject relates to gender.

The story Brene Brown relays in her talks that I've seen was of a man coming up to her at one of her book things and saying that his wife and daughters would rather see him die than fall from his high horse. 
That the image he presented to them by not allowing himself to be vulnerable meant that they viewed him in such an invulnerable way. 
And what I begin to wonder is the specific nature of gender in this matter, because for me, it's those that haven't been critical of their notions of gender that I would say are the worst to be vulnerable towards. Who would view men not adhering to traditional notions of masculinity as being too effeminate and thus unappealing.
The impression and assumptions I made from the story was it was an older man who probably played out the typical gender relations as a provider and head honcho of the family, protector and all that. 
Many men don't show respect to men who they perceived as associated with feminine things and a lot of women don't either.
For me, I don't confide in such people and is why I seek support in those I think subvert those notions somewhat.
So I'd be interest for it to go into greater detail to the gendered nature of vulnerbility and what elements alter it as my experience tells me that its the women who are my good friends that I can show a lot more to than my guy friends. They're great blokes and all, but the competative dynamic in witticisms and such doesn't really register as comfortable for being sad and I know that they may even try to be supportive but aren't adept at those circumstances as such discomfort is hard to navigate smoothly.

I also think another element in that I think some folks conflate vulnerability with their self pity.
Self pity I think is associated with being stuck and helpless which I think some men then complain that women no longer attracted to them when they're vulnerable and probably because they come off as whiney. Being vulnerble I associate more with confronting and acknowledging weak points and even asking for support in doing so, reaching out to others. 
The latter seems more engaging with others and active, the other being more ranting about things and not acting on it. 
Even in spite of that, such helplessness may mean out of such attachment they are willing to support the person anyway because they care but can become resentful as the individual doesn't show a want of change and is passive.
There's more respect for those vulnerable in the sense of trying and failing than those that rant about things but then go on to risk nothing to address it. 

Good topic, interested to see what detail people can pull out of it ^_^


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## Dasein (Jun 11, 2015)

As far as women being vulnerable to me, it has only effected me deeply in one situation to a woman I became very close to over time and felt very connected to. She was normally not the type to show vulnerability, so it came as a surprise and a sign that we were making a deeper connection. (Edit: I shouldn't say it only happened once. It's happened a few times, but it only effected me greatly in one situation.)

Women who start off will willingness to be vulnerable from the beginning of a relationship often feel very needy to me. So I can only guess that it might be the same with women and men showing vulnerability. Once they felt connected to you they *might* truly see this as a positive sign, but a guy might come off as needy also.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

This contempt for male vulnerability is I think a very important issue of sexism against men and I've talked about it many times here. Unfortunately it's something perpetuated not only by females but by males themselves as well against each other. Hopefully that will sometime change. It's well known for example, how men don't go to the doctor in fear of being perceived vulnerable or feeling themselves in a vulnerable position. The past role of men who were the "leaders" of the family and everyone dependent on them, is a model of family that hurts everyone in some way and that's how it hurt men.


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## Dasein (Jun 11, 2015)

Wellsy said:


> I also think another element in that I think some folks conflate vulnerability with their self pity.


I've experienced this with women as well. I don't find women expressing self pity as attractive and I can identify the difference between self pity and allowing one's self to be vulnerable. I've experienced self pity from many women in the past. But the few women who were significant in my life allowed themselves to be vulnerable to me in different degrees, but it was not self pity.

I know the OP was referencing vulnerability in men, but I thought this comparison might relate to other's experiences.


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## Peter (Feb 27, 2010)

007phantom said:


> Hi all, I've recently been motivated to read up on some books on emotional management and things of that nature. One of them was the book Daring Greatly by Brene Brown. I was surprised to find a concept/observation that I thought to be true in my past which is that of men experiencing contempt from their partners for showing vulnerability. So I just wanted to find out if anyone had any experiences that support this? I'm not trying to start up a conflict or anything just trying to get real life opinions on this based on experience because I was a bit shocked to find that this concept from my past was again supported by a text I was reading with the intent of being more in touch with my emotions lol. “Here’s the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they’re afraid, but the truth is that most women can’t stomach it. In those moments when real vulnerability happens in men, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust. And men are very smart. They know the risks, and they see the look in our eyes when we’re thinking, C’mon! Pull it together. Man up.” (Brown, 95) "I was not prepared to hear over and over from men how the women - the mother, sisters, girlfriends, wives - in their lives are constantly criticizing them for not being open and vulnerable and intimate, all the while they are standing in front of that cramped wizard closet where their men are huddled inside, adjusting the curtain and making sure no one sees in and no one gets out. There was a moment when I was driving home from an interview with a small group of men and thought, Holy shit. I am the patriarchy.Here's the painful pattern that emerged from my research with men: We ask them to be vulnerable, we beg them to let us in, and we plead with them to tell us when they're afraid, but the truth is that most women can't stomach it. In those moments *when real vulnerability happens in men*, most of us recoil with fear and that fear manifests as everything from disappointment to disgust."Sorry about the crappy formatting sending this from my phone and can't break the paragraphs up properly for some reason. Will fix later


The bolded part is the key. Women want the men in their lives to show their emotions, but real vulnerability they don't want and that makes sense.

From an evolutionary point of view, a woman's safety depends heavily on the men in her live. (not just partner, but also fathers, brothers, etc.) When they are really believing something is wrong, in most cases that's not good for her either. Most women do not want to see this.

But there is a whole scale of emotions that women do want to see. But men know all too well that they´re much better of avoiding showing true vulnerability, so they actively try to avoid going in that direction.

The problem is that we live in a society that's safe enough that many women never have experienced true vulnerability in a man in their lives. So, often they have no clue what they are wishing for when they wish the men in their lives would show true vulnerability.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

I think it is something we all go through at some point when relationships get deep and intimate enough and learn from the mistake? It's one of the biggest differences between an intimate relationship with a woman and an intimate relationship with a man.


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## psyche (Jan 5, 2011)

I once had feelings for a married man who would confide in me about the struggle of his relationship (bad I know, but I stopped myself before anything happened)... What I gathered was that he wanted to make changes in his life that would potentially mean sacrificing the relationship on some level, or at least disappointing the other party. I think that, once married, a lot of women complain that their husbands are unwilling to change...that's the stereotype anyway...but the thing is that men do want to change; they just don't want to disappoint a woman. That would mean they have failed as a man (it sounds dramatic but, I mean, on some level that's the very real mentality, I think). I've read and watched a fair bit of Brene Brown and I think what she means about being atop a high horse, based on the examples she's given, is that men feel pressure to _do_ things to prove they're real men; eg, if the kid is drowning on the other side of the lake, I can swim over in less than a minute and bring her to life. But what if the whole family is comfortable with how bread and butter is currently being earned and the guy feels like something is missing in his life? I think of the movie Blue Valentine: the wife's concern was that she was ambitious but the husband was holding her back with his indolence, but what if he were to become ambitious himself and his work conflicted with hers, or the child wouldn't be properly looked after? I think indolence is more out of fear of disappointing someone than true indifference.

I don't know, just my $0.02, I guess.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't think this is totally true... first, some people are uncomfortable with vulnerability in anyone. A lot of emotion people express in everyday life is not really vulnerable. It is appropriate, expected, and sometimes quite contrived to protect oneself (the opposite of vulnerable). Vulnerability is about _emotional honesty_, not necessarily "soft emotions" (which can be very much about social convention for women). A lot of emotional exchanges between women don't strike me as truly vulnerable, so they are just responding to vulnerability in a man as they do in a woman. I have seen and experienced many women turn their nose up at true vulnerability in other women too. 

My personal observations of small boys is they get told not to cry a lot because they often cry _more_ than girls. Girls are taught to not be disruptive with emotions very early on in life. They are taught to sit still more and behave in a non-disruptive way (whereas boys get excused with "boys will be boys!"). They are encouraged to only use emotions in an appropriate way - often to please others. They often hide "disruptive" emotions, which are what most vulnerable emotions are (they are vulnerable because we may feel shame for expressing them, often according to reactions we received early on, and often negative reactions are because they seem disruptive or to "ask" for something). Boys are more often allowed to be disruptive in their behavior because it is seen as independent or assertive (not needing to adjust to accommodate others), so they openly express _a lot of emotion_ when little, but then people realize some of that has to be curbed because it is actually beginning to become too dependent on others (needing constant soothing). Often, the shaming used towards disruptive emotions in boys is to call them "weak", so then disruptive emotions are converted to more aggressive forms (ie anger). In contrast, girls learn to express their needs more manipulatively sometimes because they are taught that their needs and individual identities are disruptive; needs are masked in concern for others via soft emotions (not demanding or threatening). Both begin to mask true vulnerability by hiding what has been shamed in them.

So in adult relationships, male vulnerability may often read as self-absorbed, the way the little crying boy is not concerned with how he disrupts people around him. I have dealt with so-called sensitive men, and it turns out their sensitivity runs one way. They want comfort, empathy, etc, but they don't offer much in return. Instead of "connecting" via vulnerability, it can feel like someone is being very demanding with their emotional needs at the expense of others.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Actually that, albeit indirectly and unintentionally, leads to a good point. The disgust probably does come off a place of seen the the little boy within the man.

If I look back at memories of women and men crying over my shoulder, having nervous breakdowns or struggling with depression, and ask whether it can be seen as child like, self absorbed or disruptive, ofcourse the answer is yes, those attributes indeed apply. Yet judging their worth doesn't really occur within those moments, and my emotional response to it was never disgust. Even when after a very long while, I left someone suffering from clinical depressions, it felt like my own failure, after years of doing just that, it was my fault I was no longer able to put my own needs aside.

But your sensitive man.. Well, he was a baby, he was self absorbed, he couldn't care about anyone. You aren't predisposed to see it as your own failure, you are asking how it impacted you, which - if one would treat a relationship as a deal rather then an emotional ordeal - is actually the rational thing to do. 

...So what if your reaction is the default, and it's men's "chivalry" that masks and distracts from it? Someone is showing vulnerability, as a man that places you in a position where you have something to prove... No, the one problem with that theory is that women also have the pressure of a nurturing ideal which comes in direct contrast with the disgust factor as well, they could have as much to prove as a man in denying that it's there.

Dead end. I am just going to leave this here in case it inspires someone with a better line of reasoning. Might be awhile before I have the time to get back around to it.


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## Headdesk (Jun 13, 2016)

Kind of reminds me of how one of my high school friends told me she knew it was bad, but she hated it when men cried. She was very progressive normally too. I've seen a lot of people cry to me about weird shit, men included, and it doesn't bother me. 

I don't really know the difference, I grew up with a lot of brothers and male cousins, including younger cousins I had to take care of, while her family is mostly women.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Tropes said:


> Actually that, albeit indirectly and unintentionally, leads to a good point. The disgust probably does come off a place of seen the the little boy within the man.
> 
> If I look back at memories of women and men crying over my shoulder, having nervous breakdowns or struggling with depression, and ask whether it can be seen as child like, self absorbed or disruptive, ofcourse the answer is yes, those attributes indeed apply. Yet judging their worth doesn't really occur within those moments, and my emotional response to it was never disgust. Even when after a very long while, I left someone suffering from clinical depressions, it felt like my own failure, after years of doing just that, it was my fault I was no longer able to put my own needs aside.
> 
> But your sensitive man.. Well, he was a baby, he was self absorbed, he couldn't care about anyone. You aren't predisposed to see it as your own failure, you are asking how it impacted you, which - if one would treat a relationship as a deal rather then an emotional ordeal - is actually the rational thing to do.


This isn't about a moment of vulnerability...it is about an emerging pattern. The vulnerable moment is not what leads to this negative impression... indeed, I would not have given so much empathy, compassion, listening, etc, if I had _initially_ been turned off. I usually end up with very emotional men because emotionality doesn't turn me off in people. It is a matter of seeing a pattern over time, and how the interest in _your_ feelings and an extension of compassion to _your_ vulnerabilities is NOT there. There is no reciprocation. This not _childlike_, but _childish_.

Vulnerability coupled with emotional maturity and reciprocity (allowing _others_ to be vulnerable) is a good thing.

I've stuck with people through depression and hard times (I am a "foul-weather" friend - the last companion when everyone has ditched the emotionally broken individual), and I also have learned there is a line where it become enablement and the relationship is one of codependency. It is not healthy or benefitting anyone, including the "broken" person. A big sign of this is when someone just wants to suck sympathy out of you. There is no interest in you as a person outside of being a sympathy dispenser. That is not a _relationship_ (which goes two ways).


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## strawberryLola (Sep 19, 2010)

I have more contempt for chauvanism than I do with male vulnerability.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

And this is how I fail at sleep...



OrangeAppled said:


> This isn't about a moment of vulnerability...it is about an emerging pattern. The vulnerable moment is not what leads to this negative impression... indeed, I would not have given so much empathy, compassion, listening, etc, if I had _initially_ been turned off. I usually end up with very emotional men because emotionality doesn't turn me off in people. It is a matter of seeing a pattern over time, and how the interest in _your_ feelings and an extension of compassion to _your_ vulnerabilities is NOT there. There is no reciprocation. This not _childlike_, but _childish_.


I am not disagreeing with you, I am questioning the instincts behind why we are driven to interpret and respond to the very same sort of behavior differently. It doesn't matter if you call it vulnerable weak whiny pathetic childish self absorbed self-pitting or any other adjectives, we are in general talking about the situation where people - mostly lovers - are feeling weak and are no longer holding themselves up. Men generally respond to it by trying to hold the partner up (Regardless if the partner is a woman or a man), women generally respond to it with disgust (It seems only when the partner is a man but I could be wrong), and _when it's a pattern_, the man failed holding the partner up, the woman had enough of what she finds disgusting.

The most obvious women's equivalent I can think of is slut shaming. Men - even those enlightened ones telling women they should be more sexually open - will often still not be able to stomach it and react with disgust at a woman's past sexual exploits when it comes from a partner, and often becomes a reason to avoid a potential partner. It also carries over in much the same manner - douchey men shame each other for vulnerability on much the same basis bitchy women shame each other for promiscuity, the implication that the shaming target isn't a worthwhile partner for the opposite sex.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

Actually that line of questioning might lead to a potential answer: Do lesbian/bi women experience this from each other?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Tropes said:


> And this is how I fail at sleep...
> 
> I am not disagreeing with you, I am questioning the instincts behind why we are driven to interpret and respond to the very same sort of behavior differently. It doesn't matter if you call it vulnerable weak whiny pathetic childish self absorbed self-pitting or any other adjectives, we are in general talking about the situation where people - mostly lovers - are feeling weak and are no longer holding themselves up. *Men generally respond to it by trying to hold the partner up (Regardless if the partner is a woman or a man), women generally respond to it with disgust* (It seems only when the partner is a man but I could be wrong), and _when it's a pattern_, the man failed holding the partner up, the woman had enough of what she finds disgusting.
> 
> The most obvious women's equivalent I can think of is slut shaming. Men - even those enlightened ones telling women they should be more sexually open - will often still not be able to stomach it and react with disgust at a woman's past sexual exploits when it comes from a partner, and often becomes a reason to avoid a potential partner. It also carries over in much the same manner - douchey men shame each other for vulnerability on much the same basis bitchy women shame each other for promiscuity, the implication that the shaming target isn't a worthwhile partner for the opposite sex.


I guess this just isn't my experience or observation at all... 

What I thought I saw you suggest earlier was the expectation that women should be nurturing, and how we can be shamed for _not_ being sensitive - and I agree with that. This can mean that NOT being the giving one who always understands can lead to a shame, and a woman make sacrifice herself to boost someone else so as to not have that shame (the very same kind instilled in us as children, encouraging us to suppress our needs to be pleasing to others); and I see this topic shaming women a little bit in that way. People expected to care for everyone's feelings above your own is often a burden placed on women.

Meanwhile, it can be more culturally acceptable for men to write off women as being "dramatic" or "hysterical" and to totally withdraw emotionally. What is the instinct behind this?

Instead of supporting her or leaving her, such a man may effectively silence or just ignore her, and he may engage in bad behavior to drive her away (I've seen this with friends...the man starts to withdraw, becomes abusive, cheats, etc, to push the woman to leave, as he has less guilt over those behaviors than he would over "abandoning" her). 

Personally, I think expectations for both genders can lead to being turned off by vulnerability (unfortunately, even the very healthy kind that leads to intimacy & connection & also is a matter of compassion) or having to turn off their own vulnerability by being strong and supportive or nurturing at the expense of their own needs. 

I also think these relationships are codependent because the "supportive" person IS getting something out of it. Their ego may be fed as being the giving, good person and/or they get to avoid their own vulnerability by being "strong" all the time. That's why a sign that someone is drawing you into such a bad dynamic may be turn-off.

I don't know what the solution is for a committed relationship with partner who becomes chronically depressed but who won't seek help. Another person can only shoulder that for so long before they break also.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

That hasn't really been my experience, but perhaps that also has something to do with my general demeanor.

I mean, by most definitions I would qualify as an HSP but I'm also rather stoic and unflappable... but more importantly: I'm unapologetic about being sensitive and I absolutely won't let anyone tell me I can't be that. We all have feelings, being vulnerable is part of the human condition so bitches better think twice before they start acting like I can't be a person XD

But like I said, that has never really happened. What I have noticed is that women sometimes don't understand the way I deal with emotions. Some women really just want to _talk_ about everything and that's really not how I roll. Every little feeling has to be verbally expressed (which is impossible because words are not emotions) and everything that's left unsaid is then filled in with their guesses, which are usually not very accurate and can sometimes create an impression for them that I'm weaker or more fragile than I am. I have no idea why, but that seems to be the way it works.

This has happened several times now with a few different women: I experience negative emotions -> I prefer to deal with them by myself -> she notices something is wrong -> I say yeah but it's okay -> she wants to be supportive but also won't accept the fact that I really just don't want to talk about it at length and would rather be left alone -> she starts prying anyway, which I find very annoying and rather disrespectful -> things get heated, we end up having a big argument and it's turned into a much bigger deal than it needs to be, and all the drama makes me much more emotional than I was in the first place.

IDK, that's probably just an incompatibility I have with those particular women, but it's so unnecessarily dramatic. Can't an emotion just exist without having to make a big deal out of it? Can't a guy just brood in peace sometimes? I really don't need to express everything constantly or even share it with your nosy ass XD I mean, my best friend is a guy but when we share moments of vulnerability, we barely say a word. Silence is often enough when there's mutual understanding... then again, I've known that guy for 30+ years and I realize that kind of bond doesn't come easily, but he certainly has never put me in a spot where I feel as if I need to justify having a feeling. No man ever has TBH, and most women don't do that either... but yeah the people who have were all female, so in that respect OP has a point I suppose :-/

Well that about concludes my slightly sexist rant.
For the record, the women I referred to as bitches are purely hypothetical


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

strawberryLola said:


> I have more contempt for chauvanism*chauvinism* than I do with male vulnerability.


Fixed


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

IDontThinkSo said:


> Fixed


Do you charge for your spell check services or is the petty feeling of being right and pointing out someone else's minor error the payment in itself?

Just curious.


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## IDontThinkSo (Aug 24, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> Do you charge for your spell check services or is the petty feeling of being right and pointing out someone else's minor error the payment in itself?
> 
> Just curious.


Just trying to be helpful ; who would refuse the fix, but someone whose arrogance make them feel humiliated for being ignorant? 

Just curious.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

cybersloth81 said:


> Probably due more there being a lack of decent role models now-a-days. Plus with with society being sp PC and 'feel good' there is nothing to turn boys into men. Best solution would be to bring back national service. *Or anything that pushes them out of their comfort zones,* so they can obtain the confidence that is required.


Like allowing themselves to be vulnerable? :happy:


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> Like allowing themselves to be vulnerable? :happy:


What is your obsession with vulnerability.

Is it like lets tear everybody down so they can never better themselves week.

Anyway we are never gonna see eye to eye on this.

You have fun with your vulnerable men, I will enjoy making goals and ripping them apart.

DO you feel insecure unless a man in vulnerable/

Peace out.


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## 007phantom (May 1, 2010)

To be fair it is the topic at hand lol


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

cybersloth81 said:


> What is your obsession with vulnerability.
> 
> Is it like lets tear everybody down so they can never better themselves week.
> 
> ...


I'm not tearing anyone down :laughing: 

It's just a discussion. Relax


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

I think I'm more disgusted by female vulnerability, to be honest. Actually, maybe not. I don't know. There is a time and a place. 

I am a magnet for men who want to "open up", it's very bizarre. I have had more than one grown man cry on my shoulder, and some of them weren't even my partner. One was actually my mechanic. Needless to say, I was very uncomfortable. I mean, they're human and all so yeah it happens, but I sort of wish most people wouldn't do that to me. It makes me feel like I'm seeing something I shouldn't be seeing, and I am forced to pretend from there on out that the incident never happened. 

I keep my emotions private and I sort of think that's how it should be. Eh, I don't know.


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## Donovan (Nov 3, 2009)

drmiller100 said:


> I believe people grow in steps. It is not linear, and it is not pretty, and it is not free of pain.
> 
> Sometimes it means I have outgrown the people I used to hang out with. Sometimes they grow and change in their own way, and we reconnect later in life.



you're right that it isn't linear. in fact, i think that most people come back to what they were long ago, albeit in a more learned manner--a more experienced perspective--than what they left themselves for while first embarking on their own "journey". 

vulnerability can be defeating. but a lack of it can destroy relationships, which is just as devouring to one's own self as accessing a part of themselves that they want nothing to do with... 
as i've gotten older, and even angrier (lol), i've come to see that my own vulnerability is accessed by another's. this doesn't mean that i'm nice every time someone has a problem--tough-love is usually what is needed, as most people are "never wrong" and something is always "another's fault"--but instead, it comes out when they're actually be slowly crushed by life circumstances. and they're trying to close into themselves. or if they're still somehow innocent and always in touch with their own v-side; those can bring it out in spades. 
but it's always through another, for me. there's actual strength as opposed to the ever-present anger one can summon, when someone's eyes aren't even seeing what's in front of them and they're trying not to cry. 

the anger is still there, but it's almost holy and sacrosanct (lol--to me at least), because it comes from tenderness. rage _can_ come from a place of love--each are related to passion, to pure emotion--but it's positive anger towards what's hurting them. 
and i love it. it makes all my own problems smaller, more easily and subjectively manageable, because this person's 'hurt' has brought out my own strength in a way that is constructive, as opposed to _de_structive. 

an interesting note as well, is that while this is me "moving closer" to how i used to be, it's also an enunciation on the middle of this timeline, so far in my own life. it kind of makes it more clear how i always go for the "woman that needs help", because i'm drawn towards it naturally. i'm drawn towards my own strength naturally. why would i shy away from something that is actually and honestly harmful to myself (lol, all the sense in the world not made, only to make it now). 
so that i can pinpoint where it's found, maybe? 

the "vulnerability & strength"-mantra everyone is always parroting always seemed like what people told themselves in order to remain intact, so that their own psychology did not pull them too far away from other people, so that they could, when ready, enter back into the "normal" human population like they were/are one of them. 
in other words: it always seemed like a load of shit to make themselves feel better. and that's because it's not outright true, on it's own, but subjectively true if one can find out how it makes sense to themselves. 

/thought-process 

in any case, thanks for your post. whether intended or not, i was able to use it to show myself something. a spark.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

cybersloth81 said:


> Probably due more there being a lack of decent role models now-a-days. Plus with with society being sp PC and 'feel good' there is nothing to turn boys into men. Best solution would be to bring back national service. Or anything that pushes them out of their comfort zones, so they can obtain the confidence that is required.


I think you've misunderstood what we're discussing here.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

BlackDog said:


> I think I'm more disgusted by female vulnerability, to be honest. Actually, maybe not. I don't know. There is a time and a place.
> 
> I am a magnet for men who want to "open up", it's very bizarre. I have had more than one grown man cry on my shoulder, and some of them weren't even my partner. One was actually my mechanic. Needless to say, I was very uncomfortable. I mean, they're human and all so yeah it happens, but I sort of wish most people wouldn't do that to me. It makes me feel like I'm seeing something I shouldn't be seeing, and I am forced to pretend from there on out that the incident never happened.
> 
> I keep my emotions private and I sort of think that's how it should be. Eh, I don't know.


This happens to me too... I have had random men on the street start talking to me about their problems, and then they start crying...

But I don't feel awkward. It doesn't bother me _usually_.

It starts to bother me if it seems someone (man or woman) has glommed onto me to be their free therapist, often with little to no reciprocation as a friend. 

It is probably my fault that most of my long-term relationships were with men on the rebound, and so I entered the role of free therapist again. Someone to boost their ego and offer a shoulder to cry on - just the thing they needed!


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> This happens to me too... I have had random men on the street start talking to me about their problems, and then they start crying...
> 
> But I don't feel awkward. It doesn't bother me _usually_.
> 
> ...


Do you feel you are visually emotional? That could mean smiling, crying, or expressing anger/frustration/excitement, or anything really. I ask because I don't think I am at all, I am curious if you experience the shoulder-crying phenomenon for the same reason(s) or different ones. 

I have heard that I give off an aura of stability that is comforting to people, and that's why it happens. I don't know though. Maybe it's because I freeze up and they take that to mean "continue"?


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

BlackDog said:


> Do you feel you are visually emotional? That could mean smiling, crying, or expressing anger/frustration/excitement, or anything really. I ask because I don't think I am at all, I am curious if you experience the shoulder-crying phenomenon for the same reason(s) or different ones.
> 
> *I have heard that I give off an aura of stability that is comforting to people, and that's why it happens.* I don't know though. Maybe it's because I freeze up and they take that to mean "continue"?


This may be onto something...

I am not visibly emotive much of the time (sometimes people project negative emotion onto my blank face or consider me aloof). Yet when people are upset and seeking comfort from me, despite not "mirroring them" emotionally, my quiet empathizing seems to soothe them. I wouldn't say I freeze up, but I stay calm and mostly just listen. If they seek advice or seem to want comforting words, then I will say something (and I may be very good at saying the right thing in these cases; usually offering perspective or some validation), but I don't "cry with them".


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## ShinyHappyPeople (Jul 30, 2016)

So far as I'm concerned vulnerability is pretty off-putting in both sexes. I remember the summer after 10th grade I was in an engineering camp and I had been working on a project with a girl there. She was far more attractive than I and relatively intelligent, so obviously as the socially inept kissless virgin I was at the time I was totally smitten by her. Then one day while we were working on our project she just broke down and started crying for no apparent reason. I don't think I have ever known a more sudden reversal in my feelings for a girl before or since. My reaction was only even more strongly confirmed when a week or so later I saw her pulling the same trick on another acne-ridden engineering nerd such as myself. She wasn't even being vulnerable, she was being emotionally manipulative.

The thing about showing, "vulnerability" is that it doesn't have any sort of redeeming value. Say I admit to a girl that I have any number of emotional weaknesses. That admission won't buy me anything. She won't ever go out of her way to pander to my insecurities, nor will it mean she trusts me any more. All it will mean is that she will know what spot is the softest spot to stick the knife in later when it comes time for her to want to hurt me or to manipulate me. The only point at which showing vulnerability might be of value is in a very serious relationship after you have spent months getting to know the other person and have thoroughly vetted them. Even then showing vulnerability isn't going to fix any of your vulnerabilities, it might only save you from a few accidental conflicts

I am not entirely mentally stable, but when I am on a date with a girl it is my goal to be as incredibly stable and competent as possible. I want to showcase the strengths of my personality, not the weaknesses. One sort of funny instance of this is that I like to showcase my navigational skills. If possible I would plan an intentionally complex date which would allow me to showcase my ability to manage a complex situation efficiently. I would make sure to have things pre-staged to show my ability to plan well, etc.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

ShinyHappyPeople said:


> One sort of funny instance of this is that I like to showcase my navigational skills. If possible I would plan an intentionally complex date which would allow me to showcase my ability to manage a complex situation efficiently. I would make sure to have things pre-staged to show my ability to plan well, etc.


I'm having a fantastic vision of you on a date now. 


* *




You decide you want to take a woman out to the drive in theater - they still exist in my imagination - so you pick her up at her house. You're right on time, so she asks "I guess you got my directions?". 

"Actually, no," you reply. "Luckily I remembered that you said you lived just north of the automall. Unfortunately my GPS and the compass in my car are broken, but it's already getting dark out so I managed to locate the North Star and use it to find your place."

She nods in approval as she lowers herself into the passenger seat, and you two set off down the highway towards the remote date location. Suddenly, out of nowhere, a deer jumps in front of your car! You swerve just in time to avoid killing it but in the process you clip her hind leg and manage to blow a tire.

"Not to worry," you tell your date with a reassuring pat on the knee. "I have a spare tire and first aid kit in the trunk."

You jack up the car and remove the tire, but decide you had better tend to the deer before finishing the job. Taking your first aid kit, you leave your date next to the car and begin examine the poor creature huddling trustingly about ten feet a way. Then, just while you're taping up the doe's leg, you hear your date let out a gasp of alarm. 

"What is it?" you ask her, patting the deer and trotting back to the scene. 

"It's the tire, I'm sorry! I accidentally nudged it and it rolled off into that river! It's gone!"

"Don't worry," you tell her. "I think I see a car coming and they should be able to give us a hand."

The driver of an oncoming sedan sees you signalling him and pulls over to lend a hand. 

"Buenes noches," he greets you jovially with a small wave. 

"Hello sir, sorry to bother you but we blew a tire and then when he was helping the deer I accidentally nudged the spare and then - "

"Que?"

Your date's face falls in dismay. "Oh no! He only speaks Spanish!"

"That's no problem," you smile. "I speak it fluently."

Ten minutes later the two of you are trundling back down the country road towards the drive in. In no time you have your popcorn, and your date is just settling in to enjoy the movie with her head rested shyly on your shoulder. Then all of a sudden, the screen goes blank. 

"Oh no, there must be a problem with the projector!" she gasps, popcorn falling daintily from her lips. 

"Don't fret," you reassure her. "Let me see if I can't take a look."

You introduce yourself to the manager, who lets you poke around the projector room until you identify the problem. He doesn't have the parts required for the job, but you rummage through the trunk of your car for a bit and eventually manage to make do with an old coat hangar, some socks, and a rubber band. The movie flashes back on the screen, and everybody cheers. 

"Wow, you did it!" your date cries. She looks up at you with adoring eyes and the manager claps you on the shoulder in appreciation.

Then without warning, you hear a voice behind you. 

"Put your hands up!"

The manager gasps, and his eyes flit tellingly from the man behind you to the safe at the other end of the room. 

"Never fear," you say....





* *





I'm sorry.


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## ShinyHappyPeople (Jul 30, 2016)

BlackDog said:


> I'm sorry.


The date you described would be beyond amazing, however unfortunately I don't think I'm quite THAT skilled by any means. I likely have a somewhat skewed view of my own navigational abilities on account of the fact that I've generally been on dates with women who are younger and of less thinking based personality types. If I found myself on a date with an INTJ and suggested a route to our destination only to have her retort that she has computed a more efficient route I would find myself completely taken aback (and slightly aroused :kitteh. 

I'm just so impressed by what humans can accomplish and that extends to myself. I went to a concert last week which involved my commuting along two rail lines and then a short walk. I took such enjoyment seeing the 50,000 people slowly concentrate starting all the way out in the suburbs where the first train I started on had only a few other people going to the same concert into the city center where I transferred to a train with hundreds of other people all going to the same place and eventually walked out from underground into a veritable sea of tens of thousands of people walking towards our combined destination (the others of course flowing from bus stops, parking lots and taxis etc). And of course after the concert the whole sea of people flowed back out just as they came in. I was so impressed by the coordination of the lights, the sounds, the fireworks and everything else that went into the show. As for the music? Eh, I guess it was OK. 

But anyways, getting back to the point; in a relationship (as in the rest of life) a person wants to feel like they have a purpose. Having strengths isn't about wanting to take control of the other person, it's about wanting to share control. So, one person can be in charge of the navigation and the other can be in charge of finding interesting things to do. If you have to do everything then it's no fun because the other person serves no purpose outside of some sort of crude sexual fulfillment and if you can't do anything then it's no fun because you're existence is meaningless. A person who is too vulnerable starts to fall into that second category. If you have to keep picking them up off the floor because they can't handle life then they're not complimenting your strengths, they're just leaching off them.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> I'm not tearing anyone down :laughing:
> 
> It's just a discussion. Relax


People are drawn to weightlifting because they used to feel small. They are drawn to healthy eating because they used to be fat. They are drawn to meditation because their minds were chaotic. They are drawn to building a business because they used to be a wage slave. They are drawn to self-development because their lives used to be a mess.

Had we never been weak, we might not have become strong.

You should really watch some Conan so that you understand the 'Riddle of Steel'


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I guess I have felt like I tend to attract vulnerability in not just men but people in general. Like their raw emotion. I appreciate it in either gender. Whats not to like about someone being candid and authentic. I do not think that is weak. I mean it would depend on the delivery and context. But just generally speaking.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

cybersloth81 said:


> People are drawn to weightlifting because they used to feel small. They are drawn to healthy eating because they used to be fat. They are drawn to meditation because their minds were chaotic. They are drawn to building a business because they used to be a wage slave. They are drawn to self-development because their lives used to be a mess.
> 
> Had we never been weak, we might not have become strong.
> 
> You should really watch some Conan so that you understand the 'Riddle of Steel'



You lift weights, you become physically strong. You lose weight, you become confident. You can be physically strong and confident on the outside but still be weak on the inside. That strength and confidence is great but it's dependent on you having that control. You lose that control and you lose that confidence and strength.

You gain inner strength when you're vulnerable and inner strength isn't dependent on circumstances being under your control. When I say vulnerable, I don't mean crying your eyes out in front of someone. That's a small aspect which may or may not involve being vulnerable. You don't become strong by controlling everything you allow others to know so that you won't be hurt or attacked. Real strength comes from having no control over the outcome but facing it anyway. Sharing a part of yourself that you're afraid to share because you might be ridiculed, rejected or have that information used against you is facing your fears and dealing with the consequences. It's not hiding them hoping to forget that you're really afraid.

Weak people are vulnerable but being in a vulnerable position doesn't necessarily mean you're weak.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

I really don't have any contempt for vulnerability in people unless it becomes aggressive, demanding and damaging to others obviously. All the men I've been with have been quite emotionally vulnerable in a way and I always seem to end up helping them and listening to them a lot as they feel they can open to me probably more than most people like their family and friends. I think in general women are better with not minding vulnerably in others but then there are a lot of women who are uncomfortable or contemptuous in vulnerability in both women and men. I don't really associate with people who have very strict conventional views on gender and emotion and shame people for it based on their gender. I know people like that exist to different degrees (my ex boyfriends dads were a bit like this) but they are not in my life so I don't have much experience with witnessing that kind of thing amongst people I choose to spend to time with at least. But if you're a man who feels the need to adopt that macho man stereotype and suppress any soft or 'vulnerable' emotions then you're probably going to end up being surrounded by other people who have a gendered attitude to emotions so you probably are going to experience this from women and men.

"all the while they are standing in front of that cramped wizard closet where their men are huddled inside, adjusting the curtain and making sure no one sees in and no one gets out." - Can someone explain this? I know it's a metaphor but it seems pretty clumsy and nonsensical especially in the context at least.


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## Allosy (Jul 28, 2016)

i think it's cute unless he projects the vulnerability into aggresion.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

It has been my experience that men are more openly critical of vulnerability while in truth being very understanding of it. Women are exactly opposite. They seem to support vulnerability in men, but mostly they are disgusted by it. Even the women that make a decision to support and love a man that is open with vulnerability often play that man to the left in their own minds and socially. Sure it's all hugs and kisses, but condescendingly done. 

Socials take this far further in terms of the norm than intimates do. But even most intimates play the social game depending on their stacking. You get more hard line genuine neutrality from self pres types. 

I think that the inevitable pattern is that as the sexes become more and more similar, maleness, especially alpha maleness, will become a thing of amazing value and horrid outlier freakishness simultaneously. The trend is very well portrayed in any number of science fiction stories. This is almost certain to be followed by a trend in sexlessness, where hypergamy is equally freakish and outrey. In such a culture, not as distant in time as might be imagined, expression of vulnerability will be the norm and strength the oddity. Confession of and dealing with weaknesses one after the other, is a process of wisdom and can only be good for society. The trouble is that strength will be lost in almost equal measure except where the real growth is, on the fringes. And there the hyper male and hyper female will probably still be found, strong and vulnerable, pretentious and open, to equal degrees.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> You lift weights, you become physically strong. You lose weight, you become confident. You can be physically strong and confident on the outside but still be weak on the inside. That strength and confidence is great but it's dependent on you having that control. You lose that control and you lose that confidence and strength.
> 
> You gain inner strength when you're vulnerable and inner strength isn't dependent on circumstances being under your control. When I say vulnerable, I don't mean crying your eyes out in front of someone. That's a small aspect which may or may not involve being vulnerable. You don't become strong by controlling everything you allow others to know so that you won't be hurt or attacked. Real strength comes from having no control over the outcome but facing it anyway. Sharing a part of yourself that you're afraid to share because you might be ridiculed, rejected or have that information used against you is facing your fears and dealing with the consequences. It's not hiding them hoping to forget that you're really afraid.
> 
> Weak people are vulnerable but being in a vulnerable position doesn't necessarily mean you're weak.


Theres a mindset called not giving a fuck or going caveman. Its hard to explain, but it really is what it says on the tin, not giving a fuck.

You mention controlling everything others know, to what extent? But on the other hand, how does basing your reality on what others think make any sense.

If I were to buy a jacket which I liked.

Person A thinks its amazing
Person B thinks its OK
Person C thinks it disgusting and laughs

Does the jacket change or do I change? No, its just another persons view, which says more about them than me, as it is based on their own feelings and experiences. So why give a fuck?

Its not so much hiding, its about giving a fuck. 

You may not be able to grasp this mindset, but it is quite effective. For example, my old job they announced redundancies, other people were worrying and blaming others. When I spoke to family and friends they said it was as though I didn't care, tbh I didn't give a fuck. I needed a new job, so job hunting was needed. I got on with this. Caring or not caring would not make any difference. By not giving a fuck, I can decouple emotions from reality so they do not interfere. Like the guy who just got angry and because of blaming everyone never got a job. If he had stepped away from his feelings, he may of found work and not now be unemployed.

Also there is mindfulness and meditation which also helps in stepping away from being emotionally clouded and letting one get on with what needs doing.

I did actually mention meditation. This covers aspects such as freedom from outcome and not making expectations.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

@cybersloth81 If you don't care about anything then you won't feel emotionally vulnerable about anything. The more you care about things, the more vulnerable you become. I can grasp the don't give a fuck about anything mindset, but that's dependent on never having anything to give a fuck about. When you love someone enough to care about their wellbeing above your own and the 'don't give a fuck' mindset causes them to suffer, that's when feeling vulnerable really kicks in.


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## Master Mind (Aug 15, 2011)

It's part of the male sex role discussed by Deborah David and Robert Brannon in _The Forty-Nine Percent Majority_, which they called "No Sissy Stuff": "The stigma of all stereotyped feminine characteristics and qualities, including openness and vulnerability."


> *Openness and Vulnerability* Women are permitted and even expected to be “emotional;” they’re allowed to show when they’re feeling anxious, depressed, frightened, happy, loving, and so forth. This kind of openness about feelings, especially ones which cast the feeler in a weak or “unfavorable” light, is strongly prohibited for men. It’s not that men can never show _any_ emotions. Open displays of anger, contempt, impatience, hostility or cynicism, are not difficult for most men. But emotions suggesting vulnerability, and even extremely positive feeling such as love, tenderness, and trust are almost never acceptable.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Neverontime said:


> @*cybersloth81* If you don't care about anything then you won't feel emotionally vulnerable about anything. The more you care about things, the more vulnerable you become. I can grasp the don't give a fuck about anything mindset, but that's dependent on never having anything to give a fuck about. When you love someone enough to care about their wellbeing above your own and the 'don't give a fuck' mindset causes them to suffer, that's when feeling vulnerable really kicks in.


I agree that caring makes one vulnerable...but to lose that is to lose anything meaning anything to you. Now you just exist to churn out productivity... To me, "not caring" is a defense over vulnerabilities that are not external stuff we can "fix".

I suspect the deepest vulnerability is experienced around internal things we feel shame about in ourselves. It may seem tempting to "fix" the "problem" with some external accomplishment, but what about things that cannot be totally changed or which maybe _shouldn't_ be changed, because they are not actual _problems_?

Sometimes a flaw is the flip side to a strength, and while we see that flaw in ourselves, we don't want to lose the strength, so we simply attempt to hide it. Yet, in doing that, we can inadvertently stunt our growth because our strength ends up getting repressed too. Sometimes a flaw is not a flaw at all, but a repressed good quality we are afraid to show because we fear poor reception of it.

The relationship between vulnerabilities and weakness can be seen here (ie stuff like kindness can be seen as weak), but not everyone is ashamed of stuff about themselves that would be called "weak" by others. Sometimes it is stuff that is very strong, and you fear it may repel some people (and it may). Or you are afraid people will take advantage of this trait - that they will misuse it. The trait is not necessarily the problem here, it is inhibition due to a concern that it will be not valued or it may be abused or misinterpreted.



Master Mind said:


> It's part of the male sex role discussed by Deborah David and Robert Brannon in _The Forty-Nine Percent Majority_, which they called "No Sissy Stuff": "The stigma of all stereotyped feminine characteristics and qualities, including openness and vulnerability."
> 
> 
> 
> > Openness and Vulnerability Women are permitted and *even expected to be “emotional*;” they’re allowed to show when they’re feeling anxious, depressed, frightened, happy, loving, and so forth. This kind of openness about feelings, especially ones which cast the feeler in a weak or “unfavorable” light, is strongly prohibited for men. It’s not that men can never show any emotions. *Open displays of anger, contempt, impatience, hostility or cynicism*, are not difficult for most men. But emotions suggesting vulnerability, and even extremely positive feeling such as love, tenderness, and trust are almost never acceptable.



Women also get shamed for not being emotional in a certain way and/or being emotional in the "wrong" way (ie the masculine way highlighted above)....emotion in a woman is okay if it makes her pleasant and seem soft and in need of protection or something (people see these "vulnerable" emotions as "weak"). Basically, be like a little furry dog so people can go "awww!" and pat you on your head. Any "strong" emotion from a woman that ASSERTS - it may either be slammed down as masculine (hard, harsh, etc) or "crazy".

I am not suggesting one gender has it worse, only that both get restricted and shamed and shut-up in different ways. That can lead to different experiences of vulnerability. What is vulnerable for one may be different for another (and this even varies between individuals). Tears may not feel vulnerable for a woman, but anger may feel very vulnerable.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

OrangeAppled said:


> I agree that caring makes one vulnerable...but to lose that is to lose anything meaning anything to you. Now you just exist to churn out productivity... To me, "not caring" is a defense over vulnerabilities that are not external stuff we can "fix".
> 
> I suspect the deepest vulnerability is experienced around internal things we feel shame about in ourselves. It may seem tempting to "fix" the "problem" with some external accomplishment, but what about things that cannot be totally changed or which maybe _shouldn't_ be changed, because they are not actual _problems_?
> 
> ...


Im not necessarily talking about physical accomplishments. Im talking about shifts in mindset. I perhaps should of been a bit more clearer, when I said not give a fuck. Im talking more about negitive things, that shouldnt affect us, that do. AKA, other peoples opinions of us. If we are happy doing something, then someone opposes it and tries to bring us down. We should not give a fuck about their views. Of course their has to be some sort of balance here. With me, if its someone I care for, I will listen I will be there. But fpr example, a recent experience, the job I was made redundant from (good thing), one of my 'collegues' semed to have an issue with me, and made it his personal mission in life to try and bring me down and impose his views onto me. This ranged from me not liking football, to enjoying going to the gym, to having a social life. One day he succeeded, I felt like shit for a week. So I went home, had a long chat with someone, then did some exercises on not giving a fuck and in protecting positive emotions. The next time he had an attack at me, based on the fact I had had a fun weekend and he hadnt (he was just taking his anger out on me) he had no affect, I maintained my high vibrations and he actually started doubting himself. Now on the one hand I could point a finger and say he was in the wrong. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but its upto me to protect my positivity, blaming him and getting angry will not achieve anything, other than me going down to his level.

Another experience, is someone I used to hang around with a lot. They managed to get into my head with a lot of what I class as negativity. This affected me for a while and I was getting angry a lot. So I carried out the havening exercise (Home). Now I can look back at those times, and not get negitively emotionally affected. I am indifferent to it, aka I dont give a fuck.

Its kind of hard to explain tbh. Its being the ghost and the flame. The ghost is the emotional ninja that a lot of people call cold hearted bastards. This alone is not good for obvious reasons. To compliment this, you need the flame, which is positivity, a lot of it, that affects others so they feel positive around you. These two counter balance each other. But too make deep change, a lot of self work is required. But still in my books its more useful than playing Pokemon Go.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> @cybersloth81 If you don't care about anything then you won't feel emotionally vulnerable about anything. The more you care about things, the more vulnerable you become. I can grasp the don't give a fuck about anything mindset, but that's dependent on never having anything to give a fuck about. When you love someone enough to care about their wellbeing above your own and the 'don't give a fuck' mindset causes them to suffer, that's when feeling vulnerable really kicks in.


Im talking more about defending yourself against those who try and bring you down or have radically different views on life. Positivity breeds positivity. But in order to stay positive, getting drawn into other negitive frames is not an option. Cant give a fuck about the negative types.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Reality Check said:


> Im not necessarily talking about physical accomplishments. Im talking about shifts in mindset. I perhaps should of been a bit more clearer, when I said not give a fuck. Im talking more about negitive things, that shouldnt affect us, that do. AKA, other peoples opinions of us. If we are happy doing something, then someone opposes it and tries to bring us down. We should not give a fuck about their views. Of course their has to be some sort of balance here. With me, if its someone I care for, I will listen I will be there. But fpr example, a recent experience, the job I was made redundant from (good thing), one of my 'collegues' semed to have an issue with me, and made it his personal mission in life to try and bring me down and impose his views onto me. This ranged from me not liking football, to enjoying going to the gym, to having a social life. One day he succeeded, I felt like shit for a week. So I went home, had a long chat with someone, then did some exercises on not giving a fuck and in protecting positive emotions. The next time he had an attack at me, based on the fact I had had a fun weekend and he hadnt (he was just taking his anger out on me) he had no affect, I maintained my high vibrations and he actually started doubting himself. Now on the one hand I could point a finger and say he was in the wrong. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but its upto me to protect my positivity, blaming him and getting angry will not achieve anything, other than me going down to his level.
> 
> Another experience, is someone I used to hang around with a lot. They managed to get into my head with a lot of what I class as negativity. This affected me for a while and I was getting angry a lot. So I carried out the havening exercise (Home). Now I can look back at those times, and not get negitively emotionally affected. I am indifferent to it, aka I dont give a fuck.
> 
> Its kind of hard to explain tbh. Its being the ghost and the flame. The ghost is the emotional ninja that a lot of people call cold hearted bastards. This alone is not good for obvious reasons. To compliment this, you need the flame, which is positivity, a lot of it, that affects others so they feel positive around you. These two counter balance each other. But too make deep change, a lot of self work is required. But still in my books its more useful than playing Pokemon Go.


Oh...well....I suppose I just consider that "filtering feedback" or giving it the proper weight (NONE in those cases), often by recognizing where it comes from in someone else. People can try to shame you out of an insecurity over their own vulnerabilities, and yeah, they can try and entangle you in some little social game of trying to prove something. I am all for _transcending_ that....

I notice when you get more comfortable with your vulnerabilities, people can feel resentful almost, and they try to bring you back down to their level of inhibition and insecurity. It's like they are angry that you are comfortable with yourself and freely being yourself because they are not able to do that.... I wonder how much of that plays into the OP's anecdotes of women supposedly viewing vulnerable men with contempt (although now we see that may be an assumption from those men, not an actual experience); maybe people act contemptuous out of resentment at their inhibition of vulnerability?


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

OrangeAppled said:


> It's like they are angry that you are comfortable with yourself and freely being yourself because they are not able to do that.... I wonder how much of that plays into the OP's anecdotes of women supposedly viewing vulnerable men with contempt (although now we see that may be an assumption from those men, not an actual experience); maybe people act contemptuous out of resentment at their inhibition of vulnerability?


Hmm.. but that would suggest the men are generally more comfortable with themselves/their vulnerabilities than their partners are. Which kinda contradicts the idea that women have more freedom (or even expectation) to be vulnerable. If that were the case wouldn't women be more comfortable with it?


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> I agree that caring makes one vulnerable...but to lose that is to lose anything meaning anything to you. Now you just exist to churn out productivity... To me, "not caring" is a defense over vulnerabilities that are not external stuff we can "fix".
> 
> I suspect the deepest vulnerability is experienced around internal things we feel shame about in ourselves. It may seem tempting to "fix" the "problem" with some external accomplishment, but what about things that cannot be totally changed or which maybe _shouldn't_ be changed, because they are not actual _problems_?
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. My deepest vulnerabilities are tied into my most meaningful experiences. I don't see them as something I need to fix, but I know there are people who would take advantage or apply negative judgements. There's so many things that can only be understood through experiencing them and if they're not common experiences, people aren't going to get it. Sometimes it's just not worth it to put yourself out there, but if I'm becoming close to someone and they want me to open up, then there's a chance it might be worth the risk.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Reality Check said:


> Im talking more about defending yourself against those who try and bring you down or have radically different views on life. Positivity breeds positivity. But in order to stay positive, getting drawn into other negitive frames is not an option. Cant give a fuck about the negative types.


I agree. I don't think it's always worthwhile. I interpreted the thread to mean men opening up to women close to them, like wives or serious gf. I wouldn't suggest opening up to everyone. I appreciate men I'm close to showing their vulnerabilities because it indicates the closeness they feel and shows they trust me, which means a lot. It helps me understand them better, even the times when it's knocked them off a pedestal, it's better because that pedestal wasn't doing either of us any real favours. It wouldn't mean the same if they were vulnerable with everyone though because that doesn't indicate closeness.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> I agree. I don't think it's always worthwhile. I interpreted the thread to mean men opening up to women close to them, like wives or serious gf. I wouldn't suggest opening up to everyone. I appreciate men I'm close to showing their vulnerabilities because it indicates the closeness they feel and shows they trust me, which means a lot. It helps me understand them better, even the times when it's knocked them off a pedestal, it's better because that pedestal wasn't doing either of us any real favours. It wouldn't mean the same if they were vulnerable with everyone though because that doesn't indicate closeness.


I took the thread quite literally. Sure I open up with people close to me. But that is something special not the norm. So didn't see any need to qualify myself over that.

I'm like an onion, there are many layers, but you need to get through the previous layer to get to the next.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Hmm.. but that would suggest the men are generally more comfortable with themselves/their vulnerabilities than their partners are. Which kinda contradicts the idea that women have more freedom (or even expectation) to be vulnerable. If that were the case wouldn't women be more comfortable with it?


No... One possibility is that men and women may experience different things as "vulnerable", perhaps related to social norms. 
It also may be a matter of women being angry that they are dismissed as weaker or lesser for being more open with softer emotions. So when a man wants to express soft emotion but not be seen as weak, then it's like a double standard. The anger over that may make women respond contemptuously; although in the OP that response is a FEAR the men have, not an actual experience. So men may be _projecting_ their own view of vulnerability as lesser/weaker onto women and _assuming_ they will respond with disgust.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

OrangeAppled said:


> No... One possibility is that men and women may experience different things as "vulnerable", perhaps related to social norms.
> It also may be a matter of women being angry that they are dismissed as weaker or lesser for being more open with softer emotions. So when a man wants to express soft emotion but not be seen as weak, then it's like a double standard. The anger over that may make women respond contemptuously; although in the OP that response is a FEAR the men have, not an actual experience. So men may be _projecting_ their own view of vulnerability as lesser/weaker onto women and _assuming_ they will respond with disgust.


Ah, I can see that being the reason behind a contemptuous response. But I'm not sure what you mean about the response being a fear men have according to the OP. The quotes in the OP are from a female author claiming "we" (as in women) are afraid to see vulnerability in men, and respond with contempt. 

Now that I think about it though, within the context of those quotes it sounds like "softer emotions" = being vulnerable, and I think that's been the assumption for most of this thread. I've read some other excerpts of that book though, and she describes many other aspects to being vulnerable besides "open with soft emotions". Although I do suspect that's a pretty universal aspect to feeling vulnerable. Another one could be displays of strong emotion in general (which it would seem on the surface, is less gender specific, as it'd include, e.g. displays of rage or over-zealousness as vulnerability).


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Ah, I can see that being the reason behind a contemptuous response. But I'm not sure what you mean about the response being a fear men have according to the OP. The quotes in the OP are from a female author claiming "we" (as in women) are afraid to see vulnerability in men, and respond with contempt.
> 
> Now that I think about it though, within the context of those quotes it sounds like "softer emotions" = being vulnerable, and I think that's been the assumption for most of this thread. I've read some other excerpts of that book though, and she describes many other aspects to being vulnerable besides "open with soft emotions". Although I do suspect that's a pretty universal aspect to feeling vulnerable. Another one could be displays of strong emotion in general (which it would seem on the surface, is less gender specific, as it'd include, e.g. displays of rage or over-zealousness as vulnerability).


There's very little to imply that 'we' is representative of the majority of women. We've not seen any quotes from women saying they're disgusted by it. So far we've only seen her quotes from men making assumptions and her own opinion. Being a woman doesn't make her own feelings universal for all women, especially since she is profiting from her opinion. Her motivation appears to be selling books that state things lots of men want to believe is true, rather than presenting an objective and balanced insight into reality.


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## 007phantom (May 1, 2010)

OrangeAppled said:


> No... One possibility is that men and women may experience different things as "vulnerable", perhaps related to social norms.
> It also may be a matter of women being angry that they are dismissed as weaker or lesser for being more open with softer emotions. So when a man wants to express soft emotion but not be seen as weak, then it's like a double standard. The anger over that may make women respond contemptuously; although in the OP that response is a FEAR the men have, not an actual experience. So men may be _projecting_ their own view of vulnerability as lesser/weaker onto women and _assuming_ they will respond with disgust.


 I hope I can do a good job of articulating my thoughts about alot of the things being brought up. First off that point about the double standard women face is great I never thought of it. It is very true women get shamed for expressing anger and men get shamed for experiencing the softer emotions. 
I guess as a guy I haven't taken the chance to reflect on the fact that women have to constantly exist being viewed as being inherently weak. It makes sense to be upset by a man feeling that they can escape that judgement while expressing the same emotions. I guess it's a double standard of expecting to reap the benefits while not suffering the costs. Personally I've always seen women as just outright being able to better express their emotions and having much healthier ways of dealing with emotional distress. If I had an analogy it feels like as a guy, I'm a tightly covered pot with some boiling water and I don't have alot of ways to let out the steam. I never considered that that whole support system I admired comes at the cost of being labeled weak. (hope I'm interpreting things correctly). 

I can understand the idea that the points the men brought up could just be their fears and them projecting emotions. At the same time, lol I'm still concerned and still see it as a possibility that it is more than just projecting fears on the part of men. I think there is a chance that this isn't just something built into their heads. The reason I started the thread was to find out if anyone could confirm the issues brought up in the quotes so that I could get some actual, more direct evidence. I think that we are drilling down to the actual inspiration for the thread. I was wondering myself whether the phenomenon can be confirmed. 

I do respect the logic behind a proposition that this may be projection from men. At the same time I feel there are going to be some big difficulties in getting evidence and actually digging deep to find out if this is a common experience of men. I think men themselves who experience it would be unlikely to bring the issue up. If they did they may get shamed for not being able to man up, suck it up and stop whining as we commonly are. I'm only trying to highlight these types of difficulties to say that I do think there is some reality to this. At the same time I think something to note is that both sexes experience shame for different things and being vulnerable about different issues. I'm not trying to paint women as being intolerant of men or argue that one sex has it worse than the other because both genders have limiting expectations placed on them by society and cultures.

Another thing I've thought about is that naturally both sexes have different models of what an immature and ignorant adult looks like. An ignorant and immature man may shame his partner for getting upset and getting angry. He may shame her for not being more feminine and encourage her to repress parts of herself for the sake of a gender role. At the same token an immature and ignorant woman may scold her husband for something like losing his job and not being in control of the finances. I guess in both scenarios it devolves down to a form of emotional abuse linked to a desire to keep up with obsolete gender roles. 

My concern at the start of the thread was personally something along the lines of whether or not it's true that as a man, I can usually hold my own and fend for my goals. Is it true that if I were to have a moment of self-doubt, if I had a moment of depression or lack of faith in something or if I lost my grip on things for a minute would that be a disgusting thing. Would my partner look at me with disgust even if on the outside she tried to console and comfort me? (I guess the best example would be losing a job). There seems like there are so many other variables an factors to this issue. 

I guess one last thing I can bring up is, lets entertain the idea that a man being shamed for opening up about an insecurity is emotional abuse. Does this whole contempt and disgust thing just qualify as a form of abuse perpetrated by an unhealthy immature partner? Or does this contempt and disgust reflect the imperfections in our societal standards of what men and women should be and is it as much of an ingrained, nurtured mentality as the detrimental issues of shaming women for things like what they wear is and disregarding her autonomy over her body? In that case isn't this just a case of unhealthy societal issues men can suffer against (women having a myriad number themselves)but that no one really has taken the initiative or had the desire to speak out against. I could write an essay on this I guess lol. Thanks for everyone's responses you all have some great points

Oh another thing that I think is tricky is, I know the fact that women have never been quoted as expressing disgust. It's a valid point that the lack of comment from women on this directly can lead to bias. At the same time I think that if this is a phenomenon that takes place, if I were a woman it would create some type of cognitive dissonance. As she stated there can be a moment of "Oh sh*** I am the patriarchy" (I don't know much about gender studies and stuff feel awkward saying that word anyways). I would personally be liable to deny or just not even consciously recognize that I'm a part of that process of being disgusted by someone sharing a vulnerability. I'm not saying that's what is definitely what's happening I'm just trying to say that that is an alternative issue that may be making this an even more complicated thing to solve.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

What about that youtube idiot. The one who cried on youtube because his girlfriend said a mean word or something. There was a thread on here a while back. He got ridiculed mostly by men on this site, not the women. Cant remember his name. That would point to the opposite.

Gonna do some digging.

Here we go:

http://personalitycafe.com/current-events/756066-youtuber-5-million-subscribers-speaks-out-about-abuse-he-endured.html


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

@007phantom - Putting aside the book for the moment, and focusing on the why you related to it. Was this based on your fear of what future partners might do, or your past experience of what past partners have done? Have you had the experience of a woman expressing disgust and contempt at you for showing vulnerability? If you did, how was it expressed? Have you known others who have shared such experiences? If is coming out of your own experience, what caused you to feel vulnerable in those moments? What kind of vulnerability was it?


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## 007phantom (May 1, 2010)

@*Tropes* I don't have enough experience in relationships to really offer alot of insight. The only situation I can relate isn't very direct at all. My cousin lost his job and had a hard time finding a new one (got depressed about it for a while). My Dad told me about how his wife started to act differently towards him like she tried him like a kid. In that situation though I don't know all the details so I couldn't jump up and say her response wasn't justified because I don't know the full details of their situation. I don't even have enough information to say if he handled his issues in a mature healthy way. I don't know if he directly expressed and communicated his concerns about it or just slumped around the house or whatever the details are. 

It's more fear and reflecting on what could happen that motivated me to be interested in the topic. I haven't had the experience of a woman expressing digust for me showing vulnerability but I've only been in one relationship in my life and that started this year. Before that I haven't been with anyone so I'm the worst guy to offer experiences lol. I also related to it because this being my first thing close to a relationship I got feedback that I was emotionally closed off so I've been making a conscious effort to develop in my capacity for emotional intimacy and that lead me to these topics.


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## bigstupidgrin (Sep 26, 2014)

Numerous versions of this cycle are happening all around us. As a teacher: you get into the habit of trying to limit noise (when it's hurting others abilities to learn/isn't relevant) but then trying to get the quiet kids to talk more. 

People don't know what they want sometimes. They ask for something then reject it out of hand. According to a podcast I listen to that touches on MBTI and cognitive functions; people love the idea of iNtuitives (look at TV), but hate working with them. 

I'm personally lucky enough that none of the women in my life, from mother on forward, rejected my emotions/vulnerabilities. I totally understand this happens though. People who take outside media too seriously/cycle of what their parents taught them.


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## Tropes (Jul 7, 2016)

007phantom said:


> @Tropes I don't have enough experience in relationships to really offer alot of insight. The only situation I can relate isn't very direct at all. My cousin lost his job and had a hard time finding a new one. My Dad told me about how his wife started to act differently towards him like she tried him like a kid. In that situation though I don't know all the details so I couldn't jump up and say her response wasn't justified because I don't know the full details of their situation.
> It's more fear and reflecting on what could happen that motivated me to be interested in the topic. I haven't had the experience of a woman expressing digust for me showing vulnerability but I've only been in one relationship in my life and that started this year. Before that I haven't been with anyone so I'm the worst guy to offer experiences lol. I also related to it because this being my first thing close to a relationship I got feedback that I was emotionally closed off so I've been making a conscious effort to develop in my capacity for emotional intimacy and that lead me to these topics.


Ok, thanks, that clarifies the theoretical framework. 

First, I think we should clarify what we are actually talking about when we say vulnerability: helplessness. Nobody is going to feel contempt for you because you baby talked to a puppy or wrote a poem, nobody is going to feel contempt for you just for opening up or talking about your feelings, and certainly nobody is going to feel contempt for you just for showing courage in facing a risk of getting hurt. What this is about is a very specific type of vulnerability, when you feel like life has beaten the shit out of you. Think getting fired while your leg is broken or a career destroying event, think extremes of depressions, think moments of inability to face the world after events of extreme loss, times in which you are failing to carry your own burden and feel like you have no place to turn too. We are talking about extreme situations that do not happen on a daily basis, and as long as you are not in them, there is not much of a realistic risk that your partner will express contempt just for opening up emotionally, at least for as long as helplessness is not one of those emotions.

As far as the reaction to this, anecdotally, from what I have experienced and observed, I can tell you different variations exist: some women show extreme levels of disgust and contempt, others will outright loose interest, and others grow to care more deeply. Personally I have yet to experience this from a male partner, but that could be just my experience, as others have shared that they have. It's impossible to say the numbers or which is more probable, none of those variations openly or consciously express that such contempt is something they believe in as part of their value system, I have yet to meet anyone who has, although it's possibly that I simply don't get to be part of the the sort traditionalist environment where that would be more openly talked about. When it does show up, it seems almost instinctive, it's not a conscious choice. For any realistic measure of how probable it is that you would face that with a given woman, I don't think a study about this is viable, even if you had the ability to accurately measure contempt with a CT scan, how can you accurately replicate displays of vulnerability by a lover in multiple relationships and have those all be genuine? We simply don't have the means to do it. However, we do know that human fears suck at math, so even if a very low percentage of women actually felt this way it could be enough for a very high percentage of men to fear that their particular woman might feel this way.

As far as analyzing the reasons and conditioning that might lead to the women who feel this way to feel this way, that is interesting to brainstorm, but I feel like unless we have a better tool set, this is going to be very difficult to do in a public setting without it expanding to all out gender warfare every few pages. In other words, we need to pull the ancient magic trick psychology has used for years... We need to name the condition so we can pretend to know what we are talking about until we accidentally do.


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

> What this is about is a very specific type of vulnerability, when you feel like life has beaten the shit out of you. Think getting fired while your leg is broken or a career destroying event, think extremes of depressions, think moments of inability to face the world after events of extreme loss, times in which you are failing to carry your own burden and feel like you have no place to turn too.


Please refer to my previous mentions of the "Riddle Of Steel". Its these sorts of moments that have helped define who I am, that have made me strong. Looking back all the shit I have encountered, I am grateful for it. 

as far as "The Riddle Of Steel" goes





> They are drawn to weightlifting because they used to feel small. They are drawn to healthy eating because they used to be fat. They are drawn to meditation because their minds were chaotic. They are drawn to building a business because they used to be a wage slave. They are drawn to self-development because their lives used to be a mess.
> 
> What Conan implies is that without that suffering, we might never have been put on the path the to let go of it, and that rather than being embarrassed by our former hardships, we can be grateful for what they really were – an opportunity to transform into stronger versions of ourselves. Had we never been weak, we might not have become strong. This is the Riddle of Steel.


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## MolaMola (Jul 28, 2012)

As for women being catty and bitchy to.one another? Yet another product of our lovely patriarchy. I really wish we could relabel feminism as "equalism", because seriously, it hurts EVERYONE. male AND female.

Enviado desde mi SM-G920V mediante Tapatalk


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

WamphyriThrall said:


> I honestly wish men could build each other up the same way :/ Instead, it's playful ribbing and egging each other on.


that is a sign of the level of maturity. 

as people grow up they worry less about tearing each other down, and more abouit living their own lives.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Cheveyo said:


> Do those women exist?
> .


I know LOTS of them. Met many on this site, some who have turned into friends over the years.

If you speak positively, and treat people with respect, those who want respect often eventually learn to GIVE respect. This is true of both male and female. 

Those who want to be insulting move on along out my life.


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

True for me.

I've never met a male I considered truly "strong", and therefore I've never met one that I could respect.

Having some vulnerabilities or a soft side is one thing, those I'd like to hear and see, but making a habit of vulnerability is another. 

That, to me, is weakness. And since I fight my weakness, I expect men _should_ do the same.


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## Cephalonimbus (Dec 6, 2010)

Rebecca.M said:


> True for me.
> 
> I've never met a male I considered truly "strong", and therefore I've never met one that I could respect.
> 
> ...


Interesting plot twist... I think you're the first one in 13 pages to interpret the topic in this way 

Are you saying that literally all the men you've met made a habit of vulnerability?


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## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

Cephalonimbus said:


> Interesting plot twist... I think you're the first one in 13 pages to interpret the topic in this way



Yey for me! 





> Are you saying that literally all the men you've met made a habit of vulnerability?



I would say they've all been weak in some way.

Whether that be emotionally, mentally, or physically.

So some have been too vulnerable, 
or perhaps more in line with my perceptions, what they were vulnerable about was particularly weak... weaker than my own weaknesses, if that makes any sense. 
Like they'd never taken a firm stance in their mind and said, "I'm not going to allow that emotion to dominate me." 

Many other men, including my father and brother, are mentally weak... 
in the ways that they are too selfish to shoulder burdens, to take responsibility for family, to put others before self, to not use other people to serve their own egos (like women).

I can't help but observe that they must feel really small inside... 
and I've also noticed that sort of thing causes women to not want to do their part in turn.

This, I believe, is the root of radical feminism.
Women who have to be strong and refuse male aid, because male aid never came and now they don't trust it.

( watch people get all offended at me now :tongue: ... my opinion on this isn't exactly pc )


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## Caveman Dreams (Nov 3, 2015)

Rebecca.M said:


> Yey for me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah I think you have made the ifrst unoffensive opinion regarding feminism. Your talking about working on yourself and building yourself up instead of pointing the finger, blaming everyone else for everything and trying to mess up everyones life or just bring them down as most other feminazi's try to do.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Rebecca.M said:


> I would say they've all been weak in some way.
> 
> Whether that be emotionally, mentally, or physically.


All people are weak in some way, your post seems to me like you have some unrealistic expectations.


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## Dasein (Jun 11, 2015)

Rebecca.M said:


> Yey for me!
> 
> I would say they've all been weak in some way.
> 
> ...


Vulnerability and weakness are different things.

The "weakness" that you describe above is in opposition to the description of vulnerability as mentioned by the OP from Brene Brown. 

The following video below is a lecture she made on a TEDTalk.

"The courage to be imperfect."
"Connection ... as a result of authenticity."
"... fully embraced vulnerability."

Being in a relationship where I'm not comfortable being vulnerable as Brown describes it, feels like I'm not in a relationship with an equal. Both people in the relationship should find a way to be comfortable being vulnerable with each other. If it happens naturally in the relationship, that even better. If a woman sees me as being on a high pedestal, this is as bad as being belittled as unworthy. If I'm not able to achieve this connection "as a result of authenticity", then I don't feel I can be an equal in the relationship.

Edit: This willingness to be vulnerable it not given to anyone and everyone. Only someone I choose as being worthy of it.

The crux of this discussion is at about 8m45s into this video, but I would strongly recommend listening to the entire video:


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## leictreon (Jan 4, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> All people are weak in some way, your post seems to me like you have some unrealistic expectations.


Yep. Not everybody can be a Stoic Atlas...


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Veggie said:


> Ironically, it's always been the women least likely to actually have girlfriends to project this crap onto other women (so then... maybe not so ironically).


Sounds like another type of contempt, 



INTonyP said:


> Vulnerability and weakness are different things.
> 
> The "weakness" that you describe above is in opposition to the description of vulnerability as mentioned by the OP from Brene Brown.
> 
> ...


Wow, I relate a lot to her perspective in that video. Even the way she approaches the therapist "no family stuff, no childhood shit, I just need some strategies". :laughing: Very entertaining too. Also the idea that you can't selectively numb emotions, but it's common in today's society. 

I guess weakness stems more from what she describes at the beginning, feeling unworthy/not good enough. The people she describes as being vulnerable (the "wholehearted" people") aren't being portrayed as weak.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Sounds like another type of contempt


For sure!

There are definitely women I don't respect.

But there are plenty who I do.

And there are plenty who I try to respect, going out of my way to try to understand them individually, who refuse to do the same, who, then... yea, I don't respect. Because, ironically, they're usually the ones going out of their way when it comes to acting like we should *all* respect each other... but you go first. LOL. ...I've always been fine with my cliques of quality ladies. You wanna try to set that standard YOU go first... (I'm not?!) and they don't want to. They just want you to kiss their ass. And that's lots of people. Men and women :3

Feminism doesn't mean that you can't call other ladies out on their sh*t just like you do males. That's probably the opposite of what it means.

And if you do it passive aggressively as a female, people might want a fight to go down :sorrow:


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Veggie said:


> For sure!
> 
> There are definitely women I don't respect.
> 
> ...


Your post made me think of that whole "I get along better with men" thing but then acting judgmental towards women (since you mention it, I know someone like this who identifies as a feminist..lol). It seems like contempt at feeling alienated from other women, so rather than reflect on that or try to address it, they judge what they don't like in other women to feel better about themselves. Mean Girls style. :tongue:

Of course they're not gonna initiate the standard if they think other women aren't "worthy" of their efforts.


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## Veggie (May 22, 2011)

ninjahitsawall said:


> Your post made me think of that whole "I get along better with men" thing but then acting judgmental towards women (since you mention it, I know someone like this who identifies as a feminist..lol). It seems like contempt at feeling alienated from other women, so rather than reflect on that or try to address it, they judge what they don't like in other women to feel better about themselves. Mean Girls style. :tongue:
> 
> Of course they're not gonna initiate the standard if they think other women aren't "worthy" of their efforts.


I only ever really get judgmental with women anymore if they're always talking shit about the "bad" women...blanket statement (huh?) or wanting to be accepted for whatever flaws society might not want to accept them for (being significantly overweight while letting guys get away with being abusive p*ssies as that effects the rest of us (and their own health)... these things come to mind) ...and then being unwilling to try to see another viewpoint themselves, ya.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

Veggie said:


> I only ever really get judgmental with women anymore if they're always talking shit about the "bad" women...blanket statement (huh?) or wanting to be accepted for whatever flaws society might not want to accept them for (being significantly overweight while letting guys get away with being abusive p*ssies as that effects the rest of us (and their own health)... these things come to mind) ...and then being unwilling to try to see another viewpoint themselves, ya.


"Ironically, it's always been the women least likely to actually have girlfriends to project this crap onto other women (so then... maybe not so ironically)." Just to be clear that's the post I was talking about. 

But yeah, I mean it's hard to do much about someone who won't consider changing anything themselves or trying to improve, while they judge other people (so basically a hypocrite) other than judge them as well. 

Umm I think that goes back to the thread topic actually, haha. Vulnerability is sometimes seen as acting helpless (true in some cases) and it causes other people to frown on it.


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## leictreon (Jan 4, 2016)

Sometimes I wonder if there are women who would have a "vulnerable man fetish"...


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## Anchorman (Aug 24, 2016)

I think Ms. Brown's assessment about vulnerability is an oversimplification. We pad or even mute some emotions because they can be distractions from our core purpose. Having a completely unfiltered and unguarded emotional life is no wiser than living completely in the elements without shelter. We need to compartmentalize intimacy the same way we do rooms in a house. Note that not everyone's emotional house is the same size and that you should select the one that best suits you.



leictreon said:


> Sometimes I wonder if there are women who would have a "vulnerable man fetish"...


In my experience, women "like" it only so they can exploit it. The deep seeded programming in a woman is for survival and progeneration and any vulnerability in their partner will be viewed contemptuously on some level. Things change when you go to the societal outliers like effeminate men and masculine women. As you would expect, the very same dynamic exists but now in reverse. Unfortunately, the misguided effeminate male and butch woman seek these counter personas in their own gender when they are available in hetero.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Hiding vulnerability occurs throughout the animal kingdom. Animals showing vulnerability would mostly be attacked and killed. In social animals, males (especially with mating rights) need to hide their vulnerability the most, mainly from other males. Females give males some leeway with weaknesses, males do not. Other males are by far the biggest threat and will often challenge at the slightest hint of vulnerability. 

I don't believe that human males hiding vulnerability do it because of how a woman momentarily looks at them. Thousands of years of evolution isn't going to be undone by a woman not 'pulling a face'. If showing contempt towards male vulnerability is part of woman's evolutionary conditioning, then hiding vulnerability is definitely a much bigger part of a mans evolutionary conditioning. This isn't something caused by women or even by women's natural survival instincts.


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