# Differentiating ADHD and Extraverted Intuition (Ne)



## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Let me provide a little background before I get to the meat of the question. I recently had a conversation with an old friend who has (bad) ADHD that I hadn't spoken to in quite a while. Instead of being annoyed by her jumping around all the time, I quite enjoyed it. I work with a lot of, shall we say, linear thinkers and it's refreshing to quickly hop between different topics. But that's not the point of my question.

When I was a child I was diagnosed with ADHD myself, but as an adult was pronounced free of it by a trained professional. However, my thought patterns remain pretty scattered unless I force myself to think in straight lines. I can do it, and do it well, but it requires significant mental effort. Now supposedly as an INFP my auxiliary function is Ne, which makes sense when you look at my default thought pattern.

TL;DR How is Ne different from ADHD? Is ADHD simply Ne expressed too strongly? I've heard some theorize that most ADHD diagnoses are made by frustrated school administrators who can't deal with the intuitive learning process.


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## Fatal Destiny (Oct 4, 2018)

ADHD is a hyperactivity off loss of atention. Ne is more about pattern recognition and creating new ideas by combining.

Ne can have lack of focus because it generates more unique and interesting ideas. ADHD can have a lack of focus because of a neurotransmitter dysfunction in the brain.

ADHD can be recognized in a person if his focus is all over the place. Eyes darting around. shifty movement. These are all there because many inputs are all processed equally as the brain is unable to give precedence to one. This can happen to anyone.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm Si-Dom and when I was a kid at school I could not for the life of me listen to the teacher more than 5 minutes before my head wandered somewhere else. But where did it wander? Well, I was instead thinking of that last movie I saw, that video game I'm currently into, Christmas coming up soon etc. Very Si stuff. 

I can't speak for NPs but I imagine when their minds are distracted it goes to more random stuff than what I just listed. But the point being, anyone can be easily be distracted ergo, anyone can be ADD. And a lot of the time I wonder if it's actually ADD or just not being interested to what's going on, which was the case with me. And it's only human nature to have a hard time paying attention to something we find no interest in. Like when I watch a movie, if it doesn't grab me in the first 20 minutes, I'll either start thinking of other stuff, effectively tuning it out or just shut it off entirely.


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## tosakski (Jan 17, 2019)

Stevester said:


> I'm Si-Dom and when I was a kid at school I could not for the life of me listen to the teacher more than 5 minutes before my head wandered somewhere else. But where did it wander? Well, I was instead thinking of that last movie I saw, that video game I'm currently into, Christmas coming up soon etc. Very Si stuff.
> 
> I can't speak for NPs but I imagine when their minds are distracted it goes to more random stuff than what I just listed. But the point being, anyone can be easily be distracted ergo, anyone can be ADD. And a lot of the time I wonder if it's actually ADD or just not being interested to what's going on, which was the case with me. And it's only human nature to have a hard time paying attention to something we find no interest in. Like when I watch a movie, if it doesn't grab me in the first 20 minutes, I'll either start thinking of other stuff, effectively tuning it out or just shut it off entirely.


What you described is caused by lack of interest. Absolutely everyone experiences this no matter of their functions.
Humans need to be emotionally involved in the topic being discussed or taught, for them to keep focused. And different types can be emotionally involved for different reasons, i.e. because the topic itself is interesting, or because the teacher is interesting, or because the consequences of learning the uninteresting topic are interesting or desirable, or whatever other reason. The brain needs to feel the presence of a compelling reward for investing its energy into a task. If there's no reward at the end or in the process, then the brain has no rational reason to invest itself in the process.
If absolutely no imaginable aspect of interest is triggered, be it direct or indirect, then the mind will naturally choose to shift focus towards something more rewarding.

Animals won't learn to do tricks unless you entice them with tasty treats as a reward for each trick. So either all animals have ADD, or the presence of enticement is necessary for the brain to agree to invest energy/focus into a task.


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## Falling Foxes (Oct 19, 2016)

The difference is that Ne without ADD/ADHD can focus itself. Most Ne users need the right kind of motivation or projects get dropped and they move on to the next shiny thing but that's not the same as ADD/ADHD. For instance, I can focus on a project for a couple of days before I get bored and move on, leaving it unfinished. That's just lack of motivation and self-restraint. I can force myself to keep going or keep listening to a lecture etc but most of my motivation derives from whatever is the most fun. I mean, I imagine ADD/ADHD doesn't get to make the conscious decision of whether or not something is worthy of its time before it jumps ship. Am I wrong?

I love multitasking though and in this internet age it's probably harder for a Ne-dom to focus regardless, I know I suffer from that because I'm always chasing a high of what's captivating or fun. I can barely watch TV without feeling like my thumbs need to be tapping at my phone... I feel like this is a trained habit though that I need to untrain.

I don't bounce around in conversations uncontrollably. A lot of people might look at Ne and assume that which is why this stereotypical link has formed with ADD/ADHD but I always have a logical reasoning to change up topics. The ones who think I don't probably aren't intuitives as they aren't reading between the lines to see the association between the topics. I don't explain my whole thought process outloud because that would be boring and time consuming. It happens a lot quicker in my head than can be explained.

I'm incredibly chill person really. I am far from hyperactive and generally low energy and calm. A lot of Ne descriptions are literally ADD/ADHD descriptions and I don't relate to those at all but I know I'm a Ne-dom without doubt. I don't think those descriptions of the bouncy happy ENFP are related to functions but just blurring the lines between ADD/ADHD and the NFP.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Stevester said:


> I'm Si-Dom and when I was a kid at school I could not for the life of me listen to the teacher more than 5 minutes before my head wandered somewhere else. But where did it wander? Well, I was instead thinking of that last movie I saw, that video game I'm currently into, Christmas coming up soon etc. Very Si stuff.
> 
> I can't speak for NPs but I imagine when their minds are distracted it goes to more random stuff than what I just listed. But the point being, anyone can be easily be distracted ergo, anyone can be ADD. And a lot of the time I wonder if it's actually ADD or just not being interested to what's going on, which was the case with me. And it's only human nature to have a hard time paying attention to something we find no interest in. Like when I watch a movie, if it doesn't grab me in the first 20 minutes, I'll either start thinking of other stuff, effectively tuning it out or just shut it off entirely.


How are all those things Si stuff? It sounds pretty Ne to me. Ne thoughts are about concepts and possibilities and stories and whatever excites us. Like movies, video games and Christmas, btw. Right up Ne alley.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Llyralen said:


> How are all those things Si stuff? It sounds pretty Ne to me. Ne thoughts are about concepts and possibilities and stories and whatever excites us. Like movies, video games and Christmas, btw. Right up Ne alley.


Exactly. Not the stuff I was thinking about. When I thought of video games It would literally be stage 3 of Contra (waterfalls) playing in a loop over and over again.


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## Llyralen (Sep 4, 2017)

Stevester said:


> Exactly. Not the stuff I was thinking about. When I thought of video games It would literally be stage 3 of Contra (waterfalls) playing in a loop over and over again.


Okay. Specifics are good.


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## BenjiMac (Aug 7, 2017)

This is something that academics still ponder (not one myself before we proceed any further, just an interested laymen). There are those that make the case that high diagnosis rates of conditions such as ADHD invite us to reconsider if this is truly something that can/should be considered a disorder There is certainly debate about where the line between personality and disorder lays.

I recall some years ago hearing a compelling lecture that made a speculative case that considering Autism as an out and out disorder is rather short sighted and it could infact simply be a form of natural adaptation, given those on the spectrum tend to have some remarkable skills. My own sister for example was able to teach herself the violin in remarkable time and can complete visual puzzles almost instinctually.

The speaker made the case that many people we consider to have a disorder would infact be well adapted to survival outside regular human social groups. In essence, the question he posed was this - How do we know someone has a disorder? Couldn't it simply be an expression of some extremes of personality and aptitude? Perhaps the price one pays for immaculate visual memory is impaired social skills. Who are we to define what combinations of traits and aptitudes are acceptable and which require corrective treatment?

I should stress this was something of a self-questioning thought experiment rather than some hippy utopianism - it was clear that there is a practical need to integrate people functionally and safely into society. That there are indeed disorders that require treatment but that perhaps we are too quick to label things as such.

In another discussion, it was pointed out that there is some evidence that people with ADHD tend to be more adaptable than average and so while they may struggle to 'fit in' to a stable society with a comfortable routine - such people may very well flourish during periods of instability. It could well be that ADHD is so prevalent today simply as a by-product of humanity's past, even recent püast, being so precarious and unstable which saw a high number of such adaptable individuals survive.

Personally, I have no idea but it is fun to ponder.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Some interesting ideas here. I face a great deal of frustration when learning. If a topic interests me, I can remember the details of it almost effortlessly. If I consider the topic dry, irrelevant or just outright boring it takes a mind-boggling amount of repetition to make it 'stick' in my memory. This sounds much like what @*tosakski *was talking about as far as needing some kind of emotional investment in the topic. Yet it seems like some people can effortlessly memorize *anything*, not just what interests them. Is this frustration of mine a property of the Ne function, an ADHD thing, or am I just bemoaning what most students face?

I recently asked my aunt what motivated her to absorb details from what she described as extremely boring legal classes. She said it was fear of ridicule if she was called upon and couldn't answer the professor. Is fear what motivates most students? It never worked for me...


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

Sometimes Ne and AD(H)D look similar on the surface, but they're very different indeed. 

Yes, people with ADHD tend to have traits that overlap with traits that people associate with Ne, but they're not the same. 

For example: I have ADHD. I'm an INFJ so I have no Ne. 
The way ADHD manifests with me: Creativity, hyperfocus, trouble staying on tasks, getting distracted in the middle of a conversation, overreacting to emotional issues... stuff like that. 

Now I have a colleague with ADD. He's an ESTJ. He's excitable, loves gadgets, is impulsive, talks before he thinks, gets distracted in the middle of things... stuff like that. 

My sister is an ESTP with ADHD. She's active, tends to overcommit to things, gets emotional easily, has trouble focusing on a single thing... those kinds of things. 

There's some common denominators with AD(H)D, but there are different ways people exhibit symptoms. Some may correlate with descriptions of Ne, others don't. 

So no. There's no direct correlation between ADHD and Ne. 

That said, AD(H)D does tend to amplify certain traits people have. An ENxP will often be extra scatterbrained and impulsive. They might seem... extra ENxP in a way. 

I think there are people with AD(H)D that get misdiagnosed because they're introverted and I think there are EXXPs that get diagnosed with ADHD when in fact they don't have the disorder, but are just "extra active". 
ADHD is both overdiagnosed and underdiagnosed in a way, and it's extra hard because sometimes it's hard to distinguish between personality and disorders.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

ADHD is essentially just a competing personality model which categorizes certain clustering traits as a "disorder" because it leads to being somewhat maladapted for the present society. But that's because of the structural bias of the society, not the "ADHD" people being necessarily defective in some way. When we value conformity over creativity, of course it's a "disorder".

It also seems like Asperger's is the new ADHD to some degree. Let's call innovators autistic because they are too busy seeing outside the box in order to care about how to be "normal". See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...company/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8583ea5d55a5

I really am against the idea of curiosity and originality being seen as signs of a defect. When it is, I think that is a good indicator of a stagnant society and one that is less likely to lead the way in the future.



Drecon said:


> For example: I have ADHD. I'm an INFJ so I have no Ne.
> The way ADHD manifests with me: Creativity, hyperfocus, trouble staying on tasks, getting distracted in the middle of a conversation, overreacting to emotional issues... stuff like that.


That doesn't sound like "no Ne". I think when we leap to other personality models in order to work out the incongruences in one model, we can deceive ourselves into overlooking the incongruences in that model.


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## CountZero (Sep 28, 2012)

Ocean Helm said:


> I think when we leap to other personality models in order to work out the incongruences in one model, we can deceive ourselves into overlooking the incongruences in that model.


I never considered ADHD to be a personality ‘trait’ or ‘model’, but rather a neurological disorder. Or at least that’s how I understood it.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

CountZero said:


> I never considered ADHD to be a personality ‘trait’ or ‘model’, but rather a neurological disorder. Or at least that’s how I understood it.


I'd say it's still a model. You've got your "disordered" and "not disordered" and I don't believe it's neurologically defined. But instead of "I vs E" or whatever, one side is seen as inherently defective. Both I vs E, and ADHD diagnoses can be correlated with dopamine. With ADHD vs not ADHD though, it's more just a sense of "this cog isn't fitting in our machine, let's put them on drugs to make them more cog-like". And people have dedicated a lot of study on how to do that, with remarkably less effort spent on maximizing the potential of the natural gifts of these children.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> I'd say it's still a model. You've got your "disordered" and "not disordered" and I don't believe it's neurologically defined. But instead of "I vs E" or whatever, one side is seen as inherently defective. Both I vs E, and ADHD diagnoses can be correlated with dopamine. With ADHD vs not ADHD though, it's more just a sense of "this cog isn't fitting in our machine, let's put them on drugs to make them more cog-like". And people have dedicated a lot of study on how to do that, with remarkably less effort spent on maximizing the potential of the natural gifts of these children.


You don't seem to have an idea of what ADHD actually is. I've lived with it for 28 years undiagnosed and now I've been on medication for 6 years. My life has changed completely. I'm a strict planner and organizer, keep up with everything and don't lose my stuff every day like I did before the medication. Are you saying that the medication changed my personality because now I actually live up to my potential? 
I say that these are symptoms of a disorder that I've managed to suppress with medication (and years of trainig of course). Before medication I could never have held a leadership position. These days people depend on me to keep a good view of everything that's happening. Nobody would say I'm showing signs of Ne. 

So are you actually saying that since taking medication my personality has changed because I have changed my behaviour? I don't show any Ne these days and people tell me that they see a change in my behaviour but I'm obviously still the same person with the same personality.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

Drecon said:


> You don't seem to have an idea of what ADHD actually is. I've lived with it for 28 years undiagnosed and now I've been on medication for 6 years. My life has changed completely. I'm a strict planner and organizer, keep up with everything and don't lose my stuff every day like I did before the medication. Are you saying that the medication changed my personality because now I actually live up to my potential?


Of course the medication changed your personality (the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character) if that happened.


> I say that these are symptoms of a disorder that I've managed to suppress with medication (and years of trainig of course). Before medication I could never have held a leadership position. These days people depend on me to keep a good view of everything that's happening. Nobody would say I'm showing signs of Ne.


In nu-MBTI function stack land, that's age range is the time you should be developing Si (if you had auxiliary Ne). So if you become more dependable and responsible it could just be part of your natural development.

Your "potential" is basically the potential product of the interaction between yourself and society. Obviously if society is intolerant of your "Ne" ways then you have less potential, but I see very little critique of society for making things this way, instead blaming the individual for being "disordered" which you seem to have accepted for yourself.

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28705691

Mind wandering actually increases performance in tasks. Societies are just not finding the right tasks for people who are prone to wandering minds, probably because they are in the minority and it's easier to cater to the majority in education systems, etc. Look at population statistics and you'll see all the SJs.


> So are you actually saying that since taking medication my personality has changed because I have changed my behaviour? I don't show any Ne these days and people tell me that they see a change in my behaviour


Yes.


> but I'm obviously still the same person with the same personality.


I don't know why you are assuming static personality.


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## Nicholasjh1 (Feb 6, 2018)

BenjiMac said:


> This is something that academics still ponder (not one myself before we proceed any further, just an interested laymen). There are those that make the case that high diagnosis rates of conditions such as ADHD invite us to reconsider if this is truly something that can/should be considered a disorder There is certainly debate about where the line between personality and disorder lays.
> 
> I recall some years ago hearing a compelling lecture that made a speculative case that considering Autism as an out and out disorder is rather short sighted and it could infact simply be a form of natural adaptation, given those on the spectrum tend to have some remarkable skills. My own sister for example was able to teach herself the violin in remarkable time and can complete visual puzzles almost instinctually.
> 
> ...


More recent study of evolution shows that all species studied (ie probably most or all species period) have a zone of genetic adaptation. This zone is accomplished by having less "protection" on the genes mutating. This is accomplished in the "junk dna" area (no longer considered junk) and by methylation. I'm sure you can guess where on of humans' area of adaptation is - the brain. So in a species that is more liable to mutate in the brain area you would expect more diversity in brain function, and in fact in a species that has upped it's survival of "less fit" specimens, you would expect this adaptable area to have even more range. On top of that, being able to move, congregate, and communcate has changed how our species breeds... Ie nerds can now mate with nerds. It is an established fact that silicon valley children have a higher rate of autism... this isn't a coincidence. It's because people with a particular set of skills started colonizing that area, then mating together, doubling down on the types of mutations that make someone a good programmer in a species that is meant to adapt and mutate in that area. It's really no surprise when you look at these new discoveries combined. I expect the species will continue to evolve in unique directions as the internet itself is becoming more adept at putting people together with similar interests etc.


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## Drecon (Jun 20, 2016)

Ocean Helm said:


> Of course the medication changed your personality (the combination of characteristics or qualities that form an individual's distinctive character) if that happened.
> 
> In nu-MBTI function stack land, that's age range is the time you should be developing Si (if you had auxiliary Ne). So if you become more dependable and responsible it could just be part of your natural development.
> 
> ...


In that case there are two options: Either I've been bad at explaining my point, or we have radically different ideas of what the word personality means. 
I'm inclined so say it's a bit of both, but mostly the former. I think I've overstated some of the things that I wanted to say earlier. Rereading my posts I can see how you would come to the conclusions you would come to. We might still have a different idea of what personality is though. 

Honestly, it's hard for me to find the words to explain myself properly, since it's a topic that I can get emotional about. I'll try and put that aside as much as possible, as it doesn't help the discussion. 


What I should have stressed is that I've always been a planner and I've always been very strict with myself. My ADHD always prevented me from getting the results I've worked for though. I have spent years trying all the time to develop a way that I can actually stick to all of my plans and schedules. The thing is that I have never had the ability to do so. 
When I'm off medication I lose my things, have a messy environment and can't keep my head in a conversation. That's not for lack of trying though. I have always tried to build systems of controlling my own behaviour, trying to micromanage myself into finally living up to what I've always seen as the real me. 
Medication has finally made these attempts successful. 

ADHD is, in a way, an inability to behave according to what you want to do. You can't focus on the things that you should focus on and often feel like you're not in control of your actions. It's frustrating because it feels like you're behaving differently from how you actually are as a person. 
That's the reason I'm of the opinion that ADHD and medication for it don't change your personality. 

I'm not sure yet if personality is static, but I've hardly come across examples of people that I feel changed personality because of something like that. There are cases of brain damage where personality has obviously been affected, but I don't think that's the thing we're talking about here. 
I know we disagree about the validity of Dario Nardi's research, but there is some data he has shown that as people age, they tend to automate certain brain processes, which allows them to exhibit brain activity that would fit with someone of an 'opposite type' (I put that between quotes as I know that there is disagreement over what an opposite type really is. 
Regardless, it does feed into the idea that rather than change personality as we age, we merely develop the personality we already have. I hope we'll get more research on this type of thing in the future, although there's definitely more important research to be done first. (like an actual one on groupings in patterns of brain activation without trying to fit the data to a theoretical model behorehand. I'm well aware of these problems in Nardi's research and I think by trying to make the data fit the model rather than build a model from the available data he's doing a lot of damage to his credibility).


As to the question if medication has changed my personality... it depends on how we define personality. In terms of MBTI I see personality as the pattern of how you take in and process information and how you make decisions based on reasonings and values. I think these things have not changed for me. 
You could interpret personality as "a pattern of behaviours" or "the complete state of your brain". In that case you could make an argument that my personality has changed, but I'm not sure if we're still talking about the MBTI interpretation of personality if we're going that route. 

So... there's my reasoning for what I'm trying to say here. I hope I've done a somewhat better job of explaining myself this time around.


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## Abbaladon Arc V (Jan 16, 2018)

ADHD create an OVER extraverted intuition.


Thats why People with ADHD and Introvert intuition have an ""superpower"" 
becauuse they can think in Introvert and extrovert intuition at the same reaction time make them very good at business and networking.


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## ENFPurpleKitti (Mar 20, 2017)

> There are those that make the case that high diagnosis rates of conditions such as ADHD invite us to reconsider if this is truly something that can/should be considered a disorder


This. Thanks.

So, a few things I've observed over many years.

1. Intuitors are outnumbered by Sensors by something like 3:1 or 4:1, I can't remember. Unfortunately, medicine and psychology can sometimes overuse the idea of "majority rules" - since three out of four people function this one particular way, then the one-in-four appears to have some kind of "disorder". And intuitors (especially Ne) are constantly being called ADD, whether by professional medical experts, observers, or themselves. This same logic goes for HSPs in general - seems they are extra targeted for disorders such as ADD.

2. The DSM-V has some of the stupidest, vaguest criteria for diagnosing ADD, it's maddening.

3. I was misdiagnosed with ADD as a child (I wasn't the only one). There's a whole story to this, involving a teacher who either didn't understand me or didn't give a shit and put a lot of pressure against my mom and several other people for trying to resolve a problem I wasn't causing, and a doctor who basically looked at me and said, well I don't think you really have ADD, now I'm going to up your dose of Ritalin yet again because reasons. That garbage messed up my mind in ways that I never recovered from. I met other people who had a similar experience. Just stupid all around.

4. After quitting Ritalin and completely disassociating myself from any idea of ADD, the way I gained better control over my (not-quite-so-problematic) attention problems was by developing my lower functions. 

5. ADD is so over-diagnosed, and after everything I've learned about it, it's impossible for me to believe it's actually even real. I am willing to give allowance to the belief in "adult ADD", but even then, I have some very serious doubts. But childhood ADD is a farce and it's getting stupider as time passes.


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