# Is programming an art or Science?



## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

I do not mean a hard science. 

I have heard quite a few people refer to programming as Art. I personally strongly disagree.

Art is creative and expresses something.

Where as I would class programming more as a process.

You take a problem and split it down into smaller problems. You decide how chunks of the system are going to communicate. Then you turn all this into code. You then test the code to ensure it performs as expected. Using knowledge you have, you optimise the code as much as possible.

Even UI design, I would say is more about psychology, than it is art. 

What are your views?

If you are a programmer, do you see yourself as an artist or an engineer?


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Depends what you're programming.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Hexigoon said:


> Depends what you're programming.


I would like to think that whatever I was programming, there was some sort of design or specification. Especially if using RESTful API.


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## SgtPepper (Nov 22, 2016)

Both.


Thread solved.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

Define programming. The whole process of creating software has multiple levels or stages. From collecting user stories to designing datamodels, functions and interfaces. And finally the coding itself.

I think programming is an art refers to people that are good at some or all of these parts. Just like cooking can be an art. It is not, except that there are some who are exceptionally good at it. Or make crazy tasty new stuff.

I design business software, and I see myself as an architect or engineer. Not as an artist.
(Well, occasionally, when I cracked a difficult problem no one else could 🙃)


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I would like to think that whatever I was programming, there was some sort of design or specification. Especially if using RESTful API.


Well if the programmer is designing something then they are being artistic to a degree.
Really I think any tool or medium that can be used to express an idea can be artistic.
There isn't much of a fundamental difference between the function of a computer program's window and a painting's canvas or the paper that a novel uses to convey its information on.
I think people have a tendency to see art only in the context of the classical standards and modes (drawing / painting, writing, sculpture, acting or music). This ain't anything new though, people long ago didn't see film as art either when it was new, but nower days everyone would.
If one is programming a game, a website or piece of software for instance, I would certainly consider that art. It's an _art_ificial construct.
When I was learning to use Python we did projects where we had to use code to produce imagery using the Turtle module, along with other creative projects. This just felt like switching paintbrushes with text and numbers.

However, if you're just trying to solve logic problems, execute operations, perform maintenance or even basic hacking then yeah I wouldn't call that art.


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## Flabarac Brupip (May 9, 2020)

Its a yak's tail.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Website programming is like an art. In a similar sense, User Interface programming is like an art.

C++ programming (and related computer languages) is like a science, like math.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

I think people who say that programming is 100% a science and not at all an art don't understand art.

Fundamentally, programming has more in common with the arts that the majority of fields you could learn in college. There's so many options and ways you could abstract different problems that there is a fundamental element of self-expression in programming by necessity. The self-expression isn't why people program and it isn't important on the grand scale of things. It's just unavoidable. You can't decide an objectively best answer, because there are too many possible answers. Programmers _like_ to think themselves logical and objective so they pretend they do, but... they can't.

Unlike almost every other science field, you are left with "soft" decision problems. How do you compare the value of 20% faster code versus easier maintenance for programmers 40 years in the future objective? How do you compare the value of 10% lower memory usage versus ease of understanding for a new programmer you'll get in 6 months. Is it easier for other programmers to understand abstraction A or abstraction B, assuming all objective metrics are roughly equal? That last question is especially deadly, because programmers will disagree. It's 100% subjective.

I'd go further and say programming as a field is held back because it doesn't acknowledge it is in part an art and in part subjective. People overvalue objective metrics and undervalue subjective qualities of code. Programming is taught via endless lectures rather than a studio format like most arts or trades are. Hell, people are taught that there is a One True Way to make code more understandable to other programmers, rather than it being subjective and based on how each programmer individually thinks. And so many other problems like that.


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## BigApplePi (Dec 1, 2011)

*Is programming an art or Science?*
My quick answer is I don't know what either of those is so I can't answer. I can ask further questions though. Isn't there something closed about science and open about art?

Programming can be open about its subject matter, but so can science. The approach, carrying out and results ... can be creative. So there is something art about it.

At the same time, programming is confined to certain rules carrying out a more well-defined task and then tested. The test must go through a process repetitively to check out if it works and repeat and update when it goes wrong. That looks like science. It could apply to art also, but that is more in the mind of the programmer ... the openness of what is being creative.

Maybe the idea is the art and the technology is the science. 

Nope. I find this an unsatisfying expression of an answer.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I do not mean a hard science.
> 
> I have heard quite a few people refer to programming as Art. I personally strongly disagree.
> 
> ...


Yes.


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I do not mean a hard science.
> 
> I have heard quite a few people refer to programming as Art. I personally strongly disagree.
> 
> ...


Programming is not art , it is just a tool like brushes or an instrument , For it to be art it must have an aesthetic experience , But there may be people who see beauty and other worlds in the codes , i guess.

Now video games work pretty much like movies , They have a director with a vision and employees helping him for the complexity and it must be profitable economically.

I would say that programming is a tool that can allow you to create artistic worlds , If you create a video game by yourself with graphics , interface , music , story , you are an artist as you are creating a vision with a meaning , structure , aesthetic experience , and that can be analyzed according to any classical school of art.


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

Why even classify it, which puts limits on what we can use it for? The beauty of programming is that the only limit to it is our imagination. You can literally code a completely different universe than our own. Practically, we are limited by processing speed, memory, and storage, but those things are still improving, maybe not at Moore's law rate any more, but still exponentially nevertheless.


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## Handsome Dyke (Oct 4, 2012)

Neither. 

The process of creation is too formulaic and the things created are too narrow to count as art. _Designing_ the things that will be created via programming (such as video games) can be rather artistic, but the programming is not.

Science is a collection of practices by which we gain understanding of the world. Programming doesn't give us understanding of the world.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

superloco3000 said:


> Programming is not art , it is just a tool like brushes or an instrument , For it to be art it must have an aesthetic experience , But there may be people who see beauty and other worlds in the codes , i guess.
> 
> Now video games work pretty much like movies , They have a director with a vision and employees helping him for the complexity and it must be profitable economically.
> 
> I would say that programming is a tool that can allow you to create artistic worlds , If you create a video game by yourself with graphics , interface , music , story , you are an artist as you are creating a vision with a meaning , structure , aesthetic experience , and that can be analyzed according to any classical school of art.


You must have never seen some really elegant code then. It's capable of both. Like a lot of things in life, once you learn the mechanics and start to make it your own, it transforms into an art.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> You must have never seen some really elegant code then. It's capable of both. Like a lot of things in life, once you learn the mechanics and start to make it your own, it transforms into an art.


Would the inside of an older tv with all its little cards full of diodes and what have you be considered as aesthetic?


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

tanstaafl28 said:


> You must have never seen some really elegant code then. It's capable of both. Like a lot of things in life, once you learn the mechanics and start to make it your own, it transforms into an art.


Yes, even something as simple as a college student writing my first randomized quick sort algorithm to sort millions of numbers in O(n lg n) time instead of O(n^2) time was beautiful. There's no point in arguing with someone who cannot see it. It's very easy for people to appreciate Fi-based art, but usually not as much for Ti-based art. Showing them a beautiful algorithm, and most people would think that we're trolling them.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

> _Wikipedia: *Science* is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe_


Programming is the process of creating programs.
Programs are not explanations. They can be used to aid in the process of making predictions about the universe, but, ultimately, that is not their formal cause.
Therefore, the formal cause of programming is not acquisition and systematisation of knowledge about the universe.
Programming can't qualify as a science.



> _Wikipedia: *Art* is a diverse range of human activity, and resulting product, that involves creative or imaginative talent expressive of technical proficiency, beauty, emotional power or conceptual ideas_


The process of program creation is not deterministic. It involves certain degree of creative/imaginative ability and technical proficiency. Subset of humans recognizes the beauty of some of its products.
Programming can qualify as an art.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

FaeSoleil said:


> I think people who say that programming is 100% a science and not at all an art don't understand art.
> 
> Fundamentally, programming has more in common with the arts that the majority of fields you could learn in college. There's so many options and ways you could abstract different problems that there is a fundamental element of self-expression in programming by necessity. The self-expression isn't why people program and it isn't important on the grand scale of things. It's just unavoidable. You can't decide an objectively best answer, because there are too many possible answers. Programmers _like_ to think themselves logical and objective so they pretend they do, but... they can't.
> 
> ...


That is a strong contribution to this discussion! But what it comes down to is the exact definition of art versus skill and knowledge. The way you represent this it would mean that all engineering is in a way a form of art. There are always choices: do i use a harder compound tyre with less degradation or a softer one which has more grip? Making subjective choices (I value the softer tyre more because...) does not make it a form of art in my opinion.
I agree none the less that there is a personal component to programming, whether that is self-expression or not and therefore falls into the category of art? I am not sure. I am certainly not an expert on art, so maybe my definition of it is not very mature; I will be the first to admit.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

Allostasis said:


> Programming is the process of creating programs.


This is why I said earlier: define programming. A program can be a product which qualifies as a piece of art; if programming is understood as 'coding', then this is not true in my opinion. It is like writing the words that you have thought of before. I think composing a poem is different from writing down the words as in designing a program to coding the actual algorythms..


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

1to9 said:


> This is why I said earlier: define programming. A program can be a product which qualifies as a piece of art; if programming is understood as 'coding', then this is not true in my opinion. It is like writing the words that you have thought of before. I think composing a poem is different from writing down the words as in designing a program to coding the actual algorythms..


My perspective is similar. Coding is a part of programming in the same way that the ability to write text is a part of writing books.

However, coding can also qualify as an art by the same logic. It's just that its formal cause/scope will be constrained to code rather than to programs. Code can qualify as an object of beauty.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

I would think that Art uses Analytical Intelligence Temperament, in which a person figures what works better than what, and under what circumstances it works better.

On the other hand, Science uses Memory and Logic Intelligence Temperament, in which a person deduces something and understand it in part (Memory-oriented), or figures the cause-and-effect of happenings (Logic-oriented).

If someone is to develop a product, as in Product Research, then that would entail Analytical Intelligence Temperament as well. Interestingly, many interesting products are figured out through trial-and-error, or by accident. Memory and Logic Intelligence Temperament are for the trial-and-error part, while Analytical Intelligence Temperament is figuring out if something from those experiments is useful, even if it's not what one wanted as end result, as in "discovered by chance".


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

Allostasis said:


> However, coding can also qualify as an art by the same logic. It's just that its formal cause/scope will be constrained to code rather than to programs. Code can qualify as an object of beauty.


Agreed. But is that the definition of art? An object of beauty?


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

1to9 said:


> Agreed. But is that the definition of art? An object of beauty?


No, It is just a potential qualifier. The object itself must be an expression of the subject.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Hi I'm a professional software developer and I think programming isn't artistic in any way, shape or form.

The most artistic you're gonna get is some fancy UIs or image generation algorithms, or games that are made in such a way that one could say they have artistic merit.

But the utterly overwhelming majority of the stuff going on under the hood is way more of a 'science' than anything else (actually I would say engineering, not science). There is SO MUCH you need to understand and get right, before you can even begin to do anything that even remotely classes as artistic. And even then, the 'artistic' stuff is still just a tiny little corner of the world of programming.

LOL, imagine telling the guys programming the fail-safe mechanisms of a nuclear power plant that their work is 'art'. Or the folk in charge of making sure the autopilot of a Boeing 747 works 100% of the time. Or the people at the cutting edge of computer vision who are writing the code that lets cars drive themselves. Or developers of healthcare applications that do nothing other than take spreadsheets of blood sample data and output it on a screen. Or me, who has worked for 5 years on all kinds of business-line software projects on mobile, web, desktop and various things in between, and would not even remotely consider any of it to be art.

Sorry but anyone who claims programming is like art is quite clearly no more than a hobbyist programmer who made a few projects with interesting visuals or a fun UI.

That being said, I'm perhaps being overly broad and/or deliberately misinterpreting the question. As was alluded to in an earlier post, the premise of this thread is a bit like asking, "Is writing art?" The answer is largely no, even though writing can be used to write poetry, songs and beautiful stories. But writing itself is not art.

Either way, my final answer is: Programming is not an art.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

I still think it is all a matter of definition. Let's refrase the original question a bit:

Is building a house art?
Is painting a wall art?

I think indeed the answer is largely: no. Though architecture can be seen as art, and a wall painting of Banksy is considered to be art as well. So there must be more added to it than a form of self-expression or that the object must be an expression of the subject.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

HAL said:


> Hi I'm a professional software developer
> Sorry but anyone who claims programming is like art is quite clearly no more than a hobbyist programmer who made a few projects with interesting visuals or a fun UI.


How cute. Well, hello there. I am a professional software developer too. And your "5 years of experience" is nothing impressive to me. Clearly not impressive enough to be so stupidly arrogant about your very important "professional" perspective and so dismissive of the perspectives of others.

There is nothing broad about your perspective.
It merely reflects your shallow, primitive view of what art is, as if it is something that doesn't require any technical expertise/skill, as if you don't have to invest many years into learning how to draw and never heard about music theory .

And nowhere this question asked about industrial/commercial programming, which is just a subset of all programming that people do, and yes, it can be very constrained when you are at the bottom of the chain, since people pay you for results.

Yes, with your 5 years of experience, you are probably this still very little, insignificant unit with almost nonexistent freedom and control, of course your experience will be so dull. But I wonder what made you believe that programming is limited to your narrow opinion about it; there is yet so much more for you to learn and discover.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> How cute. Well, hello there. I am a professional software developer too. And your "5 years of experience" is nothing impressive to me. Clearly not impressive enough to be so stupidly arrogant about your very important "professional" perspective and so dismissive of the perspectives of others.
> 
> There is nothing broad about your perspective.
> It merely reflects your shallow, primitive view of what art is, as if it is something that doesn't require any technical expertise/skill, as if you don't have to invest many years into learning how to draw and never heard about music theory .
> ...


lolwhat.

I've worked on more projects than I can count. Some huge, some small, some entirely my own, all with easily enough autonomy and freedom, or at worst I am granted a strong say in what the outcome should be like.

Of all the projects I've worked on, I'd say three have some amount of artistic merit, simply because they have visuals which some people might find interesting.

And none of it was artistic or expressive in any way.

You're oddly triggered by my opinion. What do you work on?

And I never said anything about art requiring no skill, WTF.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

HAL said:


> lolwhat.
> 
> I've worked on more projects than I can count. Some huge, some small, some entirely my own, all with easily enough autonomy and freedom, or at worst I am granted a strong say in what the outcome should be like.
> 
> ...


What is art/artistic merit to you. Being "wishy washy", having pretty visuals or "fun UI"?



> And I never said anything about art requiring no skill, WTF.


Then why do you use arguments like


> There is SO MUCH you need to understand and get right, before you can even begin to do anything


to counter the claim that it is an art?



> You're oddly triggered by my opinion. What do you work on?


I don't have to be triggered by anything to say what I think. Why do you immediately assume that it is some self-defence?

I think you are granted to have a say, but your perspective on what art is needs some elaboration. And those bits of experience that you accumulated shouldn't be used to make you feel arrogant/ entitled to devalue opinions of others, it's not cool.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> What is art/artistic merit to you. Being "wishy washy", having pretty visuals or "fun UI"?
> 
> 
> Then why do you use arguments like
> ...


You can look at your Heart Energy Wisp using Woo-Aww-Wow Relationship Temperament eyes to bring it to Lover Relationship Temperament from Predator Relationship Temperament. Then, use "there is a right way to do anything" to keep it in that state.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

Sparky said:


> You can look at your Heart Energy Wisp using Woo-Aww-Wow Relationship Temperament eyes to bring it to Lover Relationship Temperament from Predator Relationship Temperament. Then, use "there is a right way to do anything" to keep it in that state.


But why would I do something like this?.. 
And I am not sure if I actually can do that, my powers weren't awakened to this level just yet, you know.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> I think people who say that programming is 100% a science and not at all an art don't understand art.
> 
> Fundamentally, programming has more in common with the arts that the majority of fields you could learn in college. There's so many options and ways you could abstract different problems that there is a fundamental element of self-expression in programming by necessity. The self-expression isn't why people program and it isn't important on the grand scale of things. It's just unavoidable. You can't decide an objectively best answer, because there are too many possible answers. Programmers _like_ to think themselves logical and objective so they pretend they do, but... they can't.
> 
> ...


Sorry, your comment has made me chuckle. It may be due to places I have worked and the stories I have heard from Developers.

Although I am not currently a developer (working on it), I have worked closely with Development Teams and have also done a bit of Bug Fixing as an Application Support Analyst in my past.

But anyway, where you made me laugh:



> How do you compare the value of 20% faster code versus easier maintenance for programmers 40 years in the future objective?


I'm sorry but do people actually think that far ahead. I mean I remember having to track down why some strange values appeared in an SQL database once. The frontend code had the best initial comment ever:

"I was drunk whilst I wrote this. I have no idea how it works if it works".

All variables on that certain bit of the repo, were name a, b,c, d...... Yeah it was impressive. Impressive in that it worked. It was a mess. From an infrastructure point of view, I can 100% say that companies do not seem to care about future proofing systems. 

Also, at one gig I had, I was pushing out a monitoring system. Although the handover of the clients infrastructure was spread over 6 months, I was left with 2 days to implement the monitoring system for 2K servers. The DevOps guy I seconded to help, well sure he wrote some code, but as he had only 2 days to develop a Dashboard and setup RESTFUL interfaces, he was the only one who understood the code. We also took down the provider of the monitoring tool we were using with his code, which was impressive. Said monitoring Tool company was actually in the news last year.



> Programming is taught via endless lectures rather than a studio format like most arts or trades are.


I can't see how that would work though personally. How would you explain things like Big O and doubley linked lists in a studio format?
Also in regards of code maintenence far into the future. Year 2K bug was ignored until last minute. And next decade we will have the 2038 issue. I'm sure loads of people were thinking about this.



> How do you compare the value of 10% lower memory usage versus ease of understanding for a new programmer you'll get in 6 months.


I can think of several CTOs just from my personal experience who really would get an erection from saving 10% memory usage and the ability to weed out crap programmers ( I have heard it said that way quite literally).

Like maybe you have worked at better places than me, which I do not doubt. But from personal and shared experiences at least, you are talking about magical dream jobs that do not actually exist.

I have never worked for Microsoft, Meta or Google however. I did apply for a position at gitHub once though, alas I never heard back from them.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

1to9 said:


> This is why I said earlier: define programming. A program can be a product which qualifies as a piece of art; if programming is understood as 'coding', then this is not true in my opinion. It is like writing the words that you have thought of before. I think composing a poem is different from writing down the words as in designing a program to coding the actual algorythms..


You actually make a good point there. To me at least, programming is taking a problem, designing a solution/system. Then finally taking that system from design to implementation. Depending on the firm you work for, that may also involve designing and implementing some of the infrastructure.


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> What is art/artistic merit to you. Being "wishy washy", having pretty visuals or "fun UI"?
> 
> 
> Then why do you use arguments like
> ...


Something artistic is usually aesthetically appealling or provides a message that must be inferred by the viewer.

The absolute majority of programming gives zero fucks about such things, frankly.

I assume you were triggered/defensive because you started your reply with "How cute", the proceeded to tell me how much you think I don't know about the world of Writing Code. I would love to know what your own experience of programming is, by the way, given that you seem to think very little of what I know and what I do.

And I wasn't devaluing anything. I was saying the alarmingly obvious fact that programming as a concept isn't an intrinsically artistic endeavour.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

I said what I did in my first post for a reason. I think people who say that programming is 100% a science and not at all an art don't understand *art*. I see that people are jumping in this thread now to dump all their experience and knowledge of programming and continue misunderstanding art. I studied both art and programming in college, and my argument is more from me as an artist than me as a programmer. "What is art?" is a long standing philosophical debate for fine arts people, and I think I've made which side I stand on that debate pretty clear.

With that said: Most of my programming work nowadays is on open source libraries and developer tools (where thankfully people do care about things like long-term maintenance), and developer tooling especially highlights the artistic parts of programming. Beyond the necessary engineering work to make sure it all works reliably, there's all the things that go into code that _only_ other programmers see and end users wouldn't see a hint of. The paradox with programming is that the most artistic parts are only really understood by other programmers. If you only look at it from the perspective of "what do users see", of course there is often just none.

There's the little niceties that make code maintainable and readable. There's API design, which is more about making complicated underpinnings easy to use and intuitive for other programmers. In ideal codebases, this is done throughout the entire code rather than only at distinct library boundaries. When done well, that is a kind of artistry. There is a kind of artistry in finding elegant solutions to complicated problems, even if the end user would never notice anything but "this is 50% faster than before". These things, IMO, are _beautiful_ in the same way that elegant proofs of complicated mathematics are beautiful.

Of course, I am biased coming from an open source perspective, where those things are valued far more heavily than in commercial work.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> I said what I did in my first post for a reason. I think people who say that programming is 100% a science and not at all an art don't understand *art*. I see that people are jumping in this thread now to dump all their experience and knowledge of programming and continue misunderstanding art. I studied both art and programming in college, and my argument is more from me as an artist than me as a programmer. "What is art?" is a long standing philosophical debate for fine arts people, and I think I've made which side I stand on that debate pretty clear.
> 
> With that said: Most of my programming work nowadays is on open source libraries and developer tools (where thankfully people do care about things like long-term maintenance), and developer tooling especially highlights the artistic parts of programming. Beyond the necessary engineering work to make sure it all works reliably, there's all the things that go into code that _only_ other programmers see and end users wouldn't see a hint of. The paradox with programming is that the most artistic parts are only really understood by other programmers. If you only look at it from the perspective of "what do users see", of course there is often just none.
> 
> ...


I kind of get what you mean. I will probably use a different word instead of art, but semantics aside I do get what you mean.

Where someone with a higher mastery, can make something seem magical or in this case "like art".


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

HAL said:


> Something artistic is usually aesthetically appealling or provides a message that must be inferred by the viewer.


And programming is something like pressing buttons until cool science magic happens in the computer.

In other words, you don't have a single clue about what art means, yet made all those _insightful_ conclusions about how programming has to be inherently different. 

The problem isn't in your lack of coding tricks but in how stubbornly or cluelessly ignorant you are.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm getting the sense some people are using _creativity_ and _ar_t interchangeably here and others aren't, which creates misunderstandings.


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## DOGSOUP (Jan 29, 2016)

Red Panda said:


> I'm getting the sense some people are using _creativity_ and _ar_t interchangeably here and others aren't, which creates misunderstandings.


Nah they just like disrespecting other people, both in their own way, which I can respect, but it kinda reminds me of a saying... sour grapes?


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## HAL (May 10, 2014)

Allostasis said:


> And programming is something like pressing buttons until cool science magic happens in the computer.
> 
> In other words, you don't have a single clue about what art means, yet made all those _insightful_ conclusions about how programming has to be inherently different.
> 
> The problem isn't in your lack of coding tricks but in how stubbornly or cluelessly ignorant you are.


I dunno man it sounds a lot like you're trying to make a case for something based on very little actual experience. You're yet to tell me what you actually know about how programming happens in practise for the absolute majority of people who do it.

Other folk here have made reasonable cases for how development of any software, or writing code generally, can be considered somewhat artistic. I'm going to continue to disagree but it's probably more a case of semantics now. In my whole life I have never witnessed or personally considered any amount of quality software development work to be "art". At best it's well-engineered. But if we're going to go down that road then how about we take, I dunno, the TianHe supercomputer and dump it in a gallery because the engineering is so good that it is now art.

An analogous viewpoint would be something like claiming all politics is like poetry because of how the best politicians are good orators who can win a crowd. It barely scratches the surface of what politics is, and any tried and tested politician would laugh at the naivety of someone claiming to adore a politician's work simply because they can give a good speech. The same is true of folk claiming programming is art just because some programming has an element of intricate design or perfectionism in execution.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

Someone once dumped a signed urinal in an art gallery. The act simultaneously pissed off many artists and earned the respect of many artists. It would be quite a similar statement to drop off a supercomputer, no?


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Allostasis said:


> And programming is something like pressing buttons until cool science magic happens in the computer.
> 
> In other words, you don't have a single clue about what art means, yet made all those _insightful_ conclusions about how programming has to be inherently different.
> 
> The problem isn't in your lack of coding tricks but in how stubbornly or cluelessly ignorant you are.


Ada Lovelace, the originator of programming logic, describes programming as a series of calculators, with the result from the first calculation being automatically fed into the next calculator, depending on what result it is. This is gleaned from the process she witnessed in the Babbage Analytical Machine.

Ada's report:




__





Sketch of The Analytical Engine


Sketch of The Analytical Engine



www.fourmilab.ch






https://johnrhudson.me.uk/computing/Menabrea_Sketch.pdf


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> Someone once dumped a signed urinal in an art gallery. The act simultaneously pissed off many artists and earned the respect of many artists. It would be quite a similar statement to drop off a supercomputer, no?


Just explain the art in the below code please:

console.log(“Hello World”)

how is that artistic?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Sparky said:


> Ada Lovelace, the originator of programming logic, describes programming as a series of calculators, with the result from the first calculation being automatically fed into the next calculator, depending on what result it is. This is gleaned from the process she witnessed in the Babbage Analytical Machine.
> 
> Ada's report:
> 
> ...


The truly amazing fact is that Ada wrote those programs for a computer that was never finished in her lifetime. I guess that's what you get when your mom is one of the foremost mathematicians of her day and her father is Lord Byron the poet.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> Just explain the art in the below code please:
> 
> console.log(“Hello World”)
> 
> how is that artistic?


Just explain the art in the following drawing please:










how is that artistic?

Just because a technique can lead to things that are questionably artistic doesn't mean the technique itself is necessarily not artistic. Perhaps closest I could say to my true belief is that "good code, by necessity, is almost always artistic, because the artistic part is the part that makes it easier for multiple programmers to work on a project over a long period of time successfully" (barring some very engineering-focused brute force techniques like formal proof)


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

FaeSoleil said:


> Someone once dumped a signed urinal in an art gallery. The act simultaneously pissed off many artists and earned the respect of many artists. It would be quite a similar statement to drop off a supercomputer, no?


A lot of contemporary art I don't see as true art, if a 5 year old can buy a computer and repeat that creation it is not art.



Allostasis said:


> No, It is just a potential qualifier. The object itself must be an expression of the subject.


Some reason but fails when analyzing the great works , The object by itself must have Technique , Aesthetic Experience , Symbolism , History , Emotionality , Climax , ect .... The work becomes an entity different from its creator, it has its own "life".
For the work to be art it has to have all that.
The public must be able to understand the subjectivity and the meaning of your creativity (generally unconscious for those who do not know how to see these things).

For me intrinsically it is not art, but it can be a tool that helps you to materialize it, the easiest example is video games.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> The truly amazing fact is that Ada wrote those programs for a computer that was never finished in her lifetime. I guess that's what you get when your mom is one of the foremost mathematicians of her day and her father is Lord Byron the poet.


To Ada, the computer is already finished in her mind, just needs to be realized in the physical. She comes at just the right time when Charles Babbage produced the Analytical Machine and having her study it, while she just has the right talent to understand its significance.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

tanstaafl28 said:


> The truly amazing fact is that Ada wrote those programs for a computer that was never finished in her lifetime. I guess that's what you get when your mom is one of the foremost mathematicians of her day and her father is Lord Byron the poet.


let’s not forget Margaret Hamilton who coined the phrase “Software Engineer”.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

superloco3000 said:


> A lot of contemporary art I don't see as true art, if a 5 year old can buy a computer and repeat that creation it is not art.


Congratulations. You're in the camp of people who don't think modern art is art. This argument has been going on for so long and is so well known in the art world that it's pretty much one of those things where any point you could bring up in debate has been brought up 50000 times before, and it comes down to personal feelings. Know that quite a few people disagree with you, and they have equally good arguments behind it.

It turns out, this argument is more about art than programming in the first place from the start.


----------



## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

FaeSoleil said:


> Just explain the art in the following drawing please:
> 
> View attachment 905881
> 
> ...


what’s wrong with formal proof? Understanding logic is key to algorithms if you ask me?

apologies if I misread your mention of formal proof.

but I would say it is one the foundations of programming.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> let’s not forget Margaret Hamilton who coined the phrase “Software Engineer”.


Without her Apollo 11 never would have landed on the Moon.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

FaeSoleil said:


> Just explain the art in the following drawing please:
> 
> View attachment 905881
> 
> ...


Pablo Picasso was asked once: "What is Art?" 

His response was: "What is not?"


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dalien said:


> Would the inside of an older tv with all its little cards full of diodes and what have you be considered as aesthetic?


In a way, it has a sort of beauty to it. One can admire the aesthetics of the design, the colors of the wires, the tube, the circuit boards with components sticking up. People have made art from less.


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## FaeSoleil (8 mo ago)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I can't see how that would work though personally. How would you explain things like Big O and doubley linked lists in a studio format?


The same way you explain stuff like perspective or anatomy in a studio format: You have a 10-30 minute lecture, and spend the next hour of the class applying what you learned rather than memorizing for an hour and 30 minutes. It's more hands-on, and less reliant on rote memorization. A good example is like, for Big O, you could explain the theory then ask for the students to apply it in "identify then improve the big O notation of this algorithm."


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

FaeSoleil said:


> Congratulations. You're in the camp of people who don't think modern art is art. This argument has been going on for so long and is so well known in the art world that it's pretty much one of those things where any point you could bring up in debate has been brought up 50000 times before, and it comes down to personal feelings. Know that quite a few people disagree with you, and they have equally good arguments behind it.
> 
> It turns out, this argument is more about art than programming in the first place from the start.


Actually I would have to see all the cases, I do not consider all modern art bad but the one that is just talk and the result leaves much to be desired (anyone could do it), lowers quite a few points in what I consider art.

Also for programming to be art it must end up as an object that can be analyzed as art and not only as the great creativity of the programmer and ends up being a program for a company.

But I also think that a popular pop song, most of the times I would not give it many points in art, maybe if the programmer would explain me his vision I would find it more artistic, but without a real object that can be analyzed according to the schools of art, it is very difficult to catalog it this way.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Well written code is elegantly designed to perform a series of instructions that produces a desired result. It can be aesthetically pleasing in how it performs its functions efficiently and logically. There is a certain beauty to solving a problem with code that is balanced, elegant, poetic, and efficient. The masters of programming don't waste a line where they don't have to, they combine functions in such a way that it saves them time and effort in debugging. When a well written code is compiled and executes successfully, it is a thing to behold. The more skilled the programmer, often the more beautiful the code. There is poetry in well written code. It conveys maximum meaning with a minimum number of characters. It is arguable whether programming is an art in and of itself, but well written code can and should be considered an _art form_. 









Is programming art? - Parker Software


Is programming art? Are those structured, complex blocks of code a stream of creativity that we wouldn’t necessarily recognise as such?




www.parkersoftware.com














What is elegant code?


Code can be beautiful, so how does this differ from elegant code? Elegant code uses cleverness to accomplish something in much less code than most people would think possible, but in a way that&#82…




craftofcoding.wordpress.com













Coding == Art


Creating art with code, how to become a creative coder




medium.com













Programming is Art


An argumentative piece proposing programming as an art form




towardsdatascience.com


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Pablo Picasso was asked once: "What is Art?"
> 
> His response was: "What is not?"


You are right, any task where you leave your intellect, emotionality and individuality can be considered art.

But if we refer to the fine arts ... ummm , maybe it is a bit much to compare the great artists to define what is art , since 99.9% does not reach that level.

You could say it has artistic tendencies, but are you creating your own worlds or working for someone else?


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

The difference between
Fine art
and
Applied art


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Dalien said:


> The difference between
> Fine art
> and
> Applied art



Where does an art form fall in there?


----------



## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

tanstaafl28 said:


> Where does an art form fall in there?


Art will never be understood in a rational way, although there are structures, styles, the subjective psychological experience is the first thing that comes to us, at least in music.

Art is totally irrational and requires a certain structure to represent that madness, but there are no rules or logics.
The current rules are just chains ...for the future.

Who here can make a definition of what is art ? The simplification seems to me pitiful.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

superloco3000 said:


> Art will never be understood in a rational way, although there are structures, styles, the subjective psychological experience is the first thing that comes to us, at least in music.
> 
> Art is totally irrational and requires a certain structure to represent that madness, but there are no rules or logics.
> The current rules are just chains ...for the future.
> ...


Which explains why Aesthetics is one of the schools of philosophy. "Beauty" as with art, is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> Art will never be understood in a rational way, although there are structures, styles, the subjective psychological experience is the first thing that comes to us, at least in music.
> 
> Art is totally irrational and requires a certain structure to represent that madness, but there are no rules or logics.
> The current rules are just chains ...for the future.
> ...


Because how everything is a manifestation of Personality, with time being how they are relative to each other, you can certainly say that art is everything. It's art for people to get straight A's in school, it's art for people to learn how to play baseball or take their first walk in life. In a similar manner, it's Art when people tell themselves to "seek a righteous path, and wisdom will be yours", it's Art for people to "wish others to find the love of their lives", and it's Art for people to know that "there is a right way to do anything". Art is a manifestation of the Energetic sphere in Physical form, with the holographic mind in a present-frame state being a bridge between the Forward Traveling Time and Backward Traveling Time.


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## 1to9 (8 mo ago)

In the neverending discussion on the definition of art 🤪 I would like to add the component of intention and meaning. Many objects of art are not art in itself, but the way the artist changes it's context makes it art. That can be applied to anything. Even programming. But since 99.99% in unintentional I doubt that qualifies as art. Which leaves the option open for some programming to be art.

Enough middleground now?


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

DOGSOUP said:


> Nah they just like disrespecting other people, both in their own way, which I can respect, but it kinda reminds me of a saying... sour grapes?


possiburu


----------



## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

Programming to me is an art, but art as in _artisan_, rather than _artist_.

As some have said here, the purpose of art is to convey a message, and evoke reactions or emotions in people. Great programmers are artisan whom have dedicated themselves thousands of hours to honing their craft. Artists can be considered as artisans too, but the reason why they hone their craft is to serve their goal: *to create artworks*.

Programmers who learn programming to develop a video game is an artist, but the program itself is not an artwork. People enjoy the game as a whole product, not by reading the code. The programmers who program the embedded computers in washing machines are definitely not an artist, and the program they wrote is most definitely not artwork.

Whether programming is an art or not, ultimately depends on the person. To a novel writer, writing is an art. To an academic writer, writing is a tool. Writing by itself is not an art, but it is capable of producing work of art. Even if we were to consider programming as an art, it doesn't change the fact that generally speaking, computer program wasn't invented with the purpose of generating artworks, and thus most computer programs by itself will not be a work of art.

This is just my humble opinion. I don't think I'm qualified enough to make any absolute statements about this matter, so everything I've said is just my personal interpretation. I have a degree in both music composition and computer science, and I do find a lot of interlaps between the two field.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Ewok City said:


> Programming to me is an art, but art as in _artisan_, rather than _artist_.
> 
> As some have said here, the purpose of art is to convey a message, and evoke reactions or emotions in people. Great programmers are artisan whom have dedicated themselves thousands of hours to honing their craft. Artists can be considered as artisans too, but the reason why they hone their craft is to serve their goal: *to create artworks*.
> 
> ...


Art needs to elicit positive reactions, like feelings of cute, beauty, sexy, or sunny.


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## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

Sparky said:


> Art needs to elicit positive reactions, like feelings of cute, beauty, sexy, or sunny.


Umm yes, while I agree that art needs to be "positive", I'm not too sure about some of the mentioned feelings being positive. 😂 I wouldn't want my kids to be admiring sexy artworks, instead I want them to admire artworks that teaches them values such as perseverance, teamwork, dedication to self-improvement, etc. 

Also, some artists might argue that we humans are not always positive, therefore it's irrational to expect us to produce only positive artworks. Art needs to be able to express the entire spectrum of human emotions / experiences, and that includes the darkest, most disgusting parts of us. The reason why is, because awareness is the first step towards improvement. 

But anyways, this is a topic for another thread. Even though I have a lot to say about this matter, I don't want to stray from the topic.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Ewok City said:


> Umm yes, while I agree that art needs to be "positive", I'm not too sure about some of the mentioned feelings being positive. 😂 I wouldn't want my kids to be admiring sexy artworks, instead I want them to admire artworks that teaches them values such as perseverance, teamwork, dedication to self-improvement, etc.
> 
> Also, some artists might argue that we humans are not always positive, therefore it's irrational to expect us to produce only positive artworks. Art needs to be able to express the entire spectrum of human emotions / experiences, and that includes the darkest, most disgusting parts of us. The reason why is, because awareness is the first step towards improvement.
> 
> But anyways, this is a topic for another thread. Even though I have a lot to say about this matter, I don't want to stray from the topic.


Art, in terms of music, film, and paintings or drawings, are to elicit positive emotions.

The negative events you describe are happenings in stories and news reports, though the overall theme has to be positive, like hope for tomorrow, or the future.


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## Allostasis (Feb 2, 2021)

HAL said:


> I dunno man it sounds a lot like you're trying to make a case for something based on very little actual experience. You're yet to tell me what you actually know about how programming happens in practise for the absolute majority of people who do it.
> 
> Other folk here have made reasonable cases for how development of any software, or writing code generally, can be considered somewhat artistic. I'm going to continue to disagree but it's probably more a case of semantics now. In my whole life I have never witnessed or personally considered any amount of quality software development work to be "art". At best it's well-engineered. But if we're going to go down that road then how about we take, I dunno, the TianHe supercomputer and dump it in a gallery because the engineering is so good that it is now art.
> 
> An analogous viewpoint would be something like claiming all politics is like poetry because of how the best politicians are good orators who can win a crowd. It barely scratches the surface of what politics is, and any tried and tested politician would laugh at the naivety of someone claiming to adore a politician's work simply because they can give a good speech. The same is true of folk claiming programming is art just because some programming has an element of intricate design or perfectionism in execution.


I don't think my position is understood, so I will clarify it further.

When I talk about programming, I mean programming in the most general sense of it in isolation, with a minimal set of additional assumptions. The essence, the nature of this activity, and how its properties can formally classify it.

When you talk about the programming, you imagine the average commercial application of it, the subset of programming whose products and, by extension, the process behind them are bounded by their utility in the way that client defines it, which may require an arbitrary amount of constraints which you will be forced to satisfy.

It is the application of programming. It is more than just programming as it includes properties not inherent to it, such as business value and how it factors into the process.

There is nothing new in any of that.
Consider an artist who draws paintings and then an illustrator employed by some business. What do they have in common?
Both of them share the same inherently creative (subjective) activity. In the latter case, it is simply constrained by the business requirements.


Have you heard about the book "The Art of Computer Programming"? 









By art, artistic merit, or aesthetic experience, I understand something much more than just fancy visual effects. 

Aesthetic experience, among many other possible things, can factor in the elegance of the object, which typically requires a great deal of talent, skill, and imagination. And art would be the activity that generates such an experience.

Functional, efficient, seemingly flawless, and elegant systems can be beautiful. And so can be the structure of the code that brings them to life.

Now, realistically speaking, in order to satisfy business requirements, people don't really have to care about all this stuff, many people don't, but their experience would be more reflective of their lack of taste or interests rather than defining of the activity in its principle.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sparky said:


> Art needs to elicit positive reactions, like feelings of cute, beauty, sexy, or sunny.


art is one of the best ways to express negative emotions for the artist and the audience, since when engaging with the artwork through empathy we channel and deal with our own negativity


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> art is one of the best ways to express negative emotions for the artist and the audience, since when engaging with the artwork through empathy we channel and deal with our own negativity


Because "there is a right way to do anything", if the person wants to have his artwork appreciated for generations, then one needs to focus eliciting positive emotions, like cute, sexy, beauty, and sunny.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sparky said:


> Because "there is a right way to do anything", if the person wants to have his artwork appreciated for generations, then one needs to focus eliciting positive emotions, like cute, sexy, beauty, and sunny.


yea no, sad songs and paintings that depict war and other tragedies, poems and novels with dark themes are already appreciated by generations because they are great at expressing that side of humanity and even can function to help people dealing with their own darkness


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> yea no, sad songs and paintings that depict war and other tragedies, poems and novels with dark themes are already appreciated by generations because they are great at expressing that side of humanity and even can function to help people dealing with their own darkness


When people think of artworks symbolizing a genre, like marble carvings, the last they think of would be anything dealing with dark themes and negative emotions.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Sparky said:


> Because "there is a right way to do anything", if the person wants to have his artwork appreciated for generations, then one needs to focus eliciting positive emotions, like cute, sexy, beauty, and sunny.


: “*Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness.* *It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift.” ~~Mary Oliver*


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Dalien said:


> : “*Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness.* *It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift.” ~~Mary Oliver*


What does "box full of darkness" mean to you?

It's definitely not anything physical, as it's an analogy for something like an abusive relationship, or even a broken heart, in that she learned something from it, like to have the courage to leave the relationship, or overcoming the anger and fear towards the person who left her broken-hearted.


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Sparky said:


> When people think of artworks symbolizing a genre, like marble carvings, the last they think of would be anything dealing with dark themes and negative emotions.











15,531 Sad angel Images, Stock Photos & Vectors | Shutterstock


Find Sad angel stock images in HD and millions of other royalty-free stock photos, illustrations and vectors in the Shutterstock collection. Thousands of new, high-quality pictures added every day.




www.shutterstock.com


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Sparky said:


> What does "box full of darkness" mean to you?


That is not the question for this thread and responding to your recent posts. The use of darkness is there. The world is not all sunshine and flowers. Art is not all sunshine and flowers.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Dalien said:


> 15,531 Sad angel Images, Stock Photos & Vectors | Shutterstock
> 
> 
> Find Sad angel stock images in HD and millions of other royalty-free stock photos, illustrations and vectors in the Shutterstock collection. Thousands of new, high-quality pictures added every day.
> ...


For marble carvings, I think of something like David, a carving by Michelangelo, or the Il Disinganno (Disillusion or Release from Deception), by Francesco Queirolo.

People of the Homosexual Sexual Temperament will occasionally be attracted to dark themed artwork, or artwork with negative emotions, though it's like how certain people are attracted to BDSM, or gay sex and anal penetration.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sparky said:


> When people think of artworks symbolizing a genre, like marble carvings, the last they think of would be anything dealing with dark themes and negative emotions.


and it would be their fault for not looking into the numerous artworks that depict those darker themes
a few examples



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laocoön_and_His_Sons




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Gaul










“Dying Warrior” - Pediment Sculpture from the Temple of Aphaia – Joy of Museums Virtual Tours


“Dying Warrior” – Pediment Sculpture from the Temple of Aphaia This “Dying Warrior” is a Pediment Sculpture from the Temple of Aphaia. It is believed to represent a fallen Trojan hero, probably Laomedon. It was initially part of the east pediment of the Temple of Aphaia, created about 505–500...




joyofmuseums.com


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> and it would be their fault for not looking into the numerous artworks that depict those darker themes
> a few examples
> 
> 
> ...


Because "there is a right way to do anything", if you want to live a mentally healthy and productive life, then looking for gory and negative images will not help you achieve that.


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## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sparky said:


> Because "there is a right way to do anything", if you want to live a mentally healthy and productive life, then looking for gory and negative images will not help you achieve that.


And yet it's well established that consuming and creating artwork with negative feelings helps people deal with their own, which has a definite impact on wellbeing. There's a whole branch of psychological therapy now that uses art to deal with traumas and help people express their pain in order to heal.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> And yet it's well established that consuming and creating artwork with negative feelings helps people deal with their own, which has a definite impact on wellbeing. There's a whole branch of psychological therapy now that uses art to deal with traumas and help people express their pain in order to heal.


There is a saying that "time and laughter cure most pains", though instead of looking at negative images, I would prefer to tell the self "Seek a righteous path, and wisdom will be yours", as well as doing something fun and enjoyable, such as playing an online game like League of Legends, or share ideas and thoughts on forums, or even play with friends.


----------



## Red Panda (Aug 18, 2010)

Sparky said:


> There is a saying that "time and laughter cure most pains", though instead of looking at negative images, I would prefer to tell the self "Seek a righteous path, and wisdom will be yours", as well as doing something fun and enjoyable, such as playing an online game like League of Legends, or share ideas and thoughts on forums, or even play with friends.


ok I feel that you're just trolling me now if League of Legends is your game of choice for experiencing positive emotions
LoL is a game you give your new friends to play to reveal their bad side to test if you can get along or they are secretly a serial killer


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Red Panda said:


> ok I feel that you're just trolling me now if League of Legends is your game of choice for experiencing positive emotions
> LoL is a game you give your new friends to play to reveal their bad side to test if you can get along or they are secretly a serial killer


The pace of League of Legends has significantly increased over the years, so that even Bruiser champions play like Assassins, though the game does entail a lot of teamwork, as well as requiring personal performance, skill, and correct judgments to win.


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## Zosio (Mar 17, 2015)

Sparky said:


> The pace of League of Legends has significantly increased over the years, so that even Bruiser champions play like Assassins, though the game does entail a lot of teamwork, as well as requiring personal performance, skill, and correct judgments to win.


Ffs you can't escape the League of Legends pitches _anywhere_ on the Internet 

I could attempt to buy some sheets off the dark web and I'd probably still encounter this somehow


----------



## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

Returning back to topic, I just wanted to share something that would be the middle ground of this thread's argument.

This is a random code snippet from a hotel management software:








..definitely not "art". And I agree that most programmers in the industry will be dealing with this kind of code on daily basis.

But what about this:








It's the pseudocode for binary search. Compared to the previous code, see how short it is? I'm not sure about others, but the first time I learnt about this algorithm, I was impressed by the elegance of it. It was truly a refreshing experience that is similar to how I feel when reading a good story, when you watch everything unfold before your eyes.

How about this:








It's an algorithm to solve the Tower of Hanoi problem using recursion. Recursion is generally considered a bad practice because it uses up too much memory despite looking nice. And this further supports the argument that the usage of recursion is to express the "elegance" of the algorithm. So why can this not be considered as "art"? If we are just concerned about efficiency we would rather use iteration, no?

I could name many other algorithms such as A* algorithm, Sieve of Eratosthenes, and many more algorithms used in Graph Theory. Call me a nerd, but the compactness and universality of these algorithms, along with the thought behind them is beautiful in its own way. So I could see why some people would think that programming is an art.

I mean, there must be a good reason why math and music are often said to be closely linked to each other. Math is not art, but at times its elegance is no less than that of a work of art. Think Fourier Transform. Maybe programming is closely linked with an art form too. But what art form it is, I'm not so sure. Maybe architecture, or...Lego? Or any other yet to be invented art forms that is involved with building compact and elegant structures.


----------



## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Zosio said:


> Ffs you can't escape the League of Legends pitches _anywhere_ on the Internet
> 
> I could attempt to buy some sheets off the dark web and I'd probably still encounter this somehow


I don't really play League of Legends anymore, though it's the most popular MOBA game still, especially in online streams. I'm actually kind of surprised there is not another free-to-play game like LoL out there, that has lower system-requirements than Dota 2, or HoN (presently being taken offline).



Ewok City said:


> Returning back to topic, I just wanted to share something that would be the middle ground of this thread's argument.
> 
> This is a random code snippet from a hotel management software:
> View attachment 905898
> ...


People who program do appreciate easy to read and follow programming codes, as the following articles praise how "beautiful" the Doom 3 code is, so there are things people can pay attention to when coding, like how certain details people need to be aware of when painting:



https://kotaku.com/the-exceptional-beauty-of-doom-3s-source-code-5975610






__





Doom3 BFG Source Code Review: Introduction






fabiensanglard.net


----------



## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Dalien said:


> The difference between
> Fine art
> and
> Applied art





tanstaafl28 said:


> Where does an art form fall in there?


There is a difference between the two, but they are both art, as in ”Fine art” and “Applied art”.
Simple as something to look at/hear and ponder upon.—intangible
Simple as something that can be physically utitlized.—tangible
respectively


----------



## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Ewok City said:


> Returning back to topic, I just wanted to share something that would be the middle ground of this thread's argument.
> 
> This is a random code snippet from a hotel management software:
> View attachment 905898
> ...


To me at least, an algorithm is more of a recipe than a piece of art. However, my view is probably biased having spent last year doing a University module on Algorithms and data structures. If anything, see the algorithm takes away the awe of seeing a computer perform some task with data. I can see how it works, why it does what it does. Its like a magician revealing its tricks. 

When I then see computer programs, I can mentally picture how and why they do what they do, at least to an extent, based on my current knowledge.

Take PerC for example, I have not viewed the page as source code, however I am pretty confident that I could replicate this site, both front end and backend, maybe add in a FB style chat bar at the side and steal a few features from Reddit. 

The more I know of how something works, the less I see the final product and the more I see a system. It loses its magic.


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Dalien said:


> There is a difference between the two, but they are both art, as in ”Fine art” and “Applied art”.
> Simple as something to look at/hear and ponder upon.—intangible
> Simple as something that can be physically utitlized.—tangible
> respectively


I would say Fine Art would be called "collectible treasure", while "Applied art" would be "decoration".


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

Sparky said:


> I would say Fine Art would be called "collectible treasure", while "Applied art" would be "decoration".


So, where would you put programming?


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

Dalien said:


> So, where would you put programming?


It's more like "decoration" or Decorative Art (aka Applied Art), similar to how there are different designs for a machete, or camouflage patterns, with some designs and patterns being simpler or more complex than others.

If you carve a piece of programming code on a block of gold, then that would count as Treasure Art (aka Fine Art).


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

If Donald Knuth thinks computer programming is art, then it's probably art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming


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## Ewok City (Sep 21, 2020)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> The more I know of how something works, the less I see the final product and the more I see a system. It loses its magic.


I see where you're coming from. It's totally reasonable, and while I have different perspectives, I understand you. 

For me, knowing the inner workings of something doesn't really take away the wonder of it. I have studied and read through Beethoven's 5th and Bach's fugues for so many times in the last 10+ years, and even until today it's not less of an art than when I first discovered it. And I feel the same with algorithms.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Ewok City said:


> I see where you're coming from. It's totally reasonable, and while I have different perspectives, I understand you.
> 
> For me, knowing the inner workings of something doesn't really take away the wonder of it. I have studied and read through Beethoven's 5th and Bach's fugues for so many times in the last 10+ years, and even until today it's not less of an art than when I first discovered it. And I feel the same with algorithms.



Music and "Art" (as in drawings and paintings) I view differently. Even if I studied painting and drawing techniques, the Sistine Chapel or pieces by Picasso, for example can still hold me in awe easily. Its the same with music. 

Code just does not simulate my senses the same way. I can still admire it, albeit differently.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

@Ewok City . To further add (and I will provide an example). Algorithms are something I view similarly to mathematics. At first it seems impossible and gibberish and makes me feel stupid, then once I understand it, it is no longer gibberish and I feel I have accomplished something in my steps to understanding. 

I briefly touched Control Systems when I did a module on electronics. Although it was only mentioned in passing, PID controllers were mentioned along with the lovely forumulae:










When I first saw this, I felt pretty stupid as it made no sense to me. Yet all over Youtube for example, there are people explaining, using and implementing this. So at that point in time, I went out my way to gain enough maths knowledge to understand this. PID now no longer seems as complicated as it once did, its just some maths that can be used to solve a problem. However, when I see this, I do remember the time and effort it took me to go out my way to gain an understanding. But now, it is merely just something I keep in my toolbox in case it is required. Same with State Machines.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I suppose we might consider programming "functional art." Since it's primary purpose is to perform a series of functions. Functional art is art that is not just meant to be admired, but serves some useful function as well. I think of Art Deco or Arts and Crafts furniture as an example. It conveyed a specific artistic style while also being something that could be used.


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## Dalien (Jul 21, 2010)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I suppose we might consider programming "functional art." Since it's primary purpose is to perform a series of functions. Functional art is art that is not just meant to be admired, but serves some useful function as well. I think of Art Deco or Arts and Crafts furniture as an example. It conveyed a specific artistic style while also being something that could be used.





> Functional art refers to *aesthetic objects that serve utilitarian purposes*. The genre is remarkably inclusive: it encompasses everything from furniture and lighting to dishes and even books. Functional art is generally applied art - art created for use, designed to serve a purpose and with an aesthetic in mind.


“Functional art is generally applied art”

In my mind art is art with all its trappings, they just serve different purposes. It is why I wrote these two posts:


Dalien said:


> The difference between
> Fine art
> and
> Applied art





Dalien said:


> There is a difference between the two, but they are both art, as in ”Fine art” and “Applied art”.
> Simple as something to look at/hear and ponder upon.—intangible
> Simple as something that can be physically utitlized.—tangible
> respectively


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## superloco3000 (Dec 15, 2017)

Ewok City said:


> I see where you're coming from. It's totally reasonable, and while I have different perspectives, I understand you.
> 
> For me, knowing the inner workings of something doesn't really take away the wonder of it. I have studied and read through Beethoven's 5th and Bach's fugues for so many times in the last 10+ years, and even until today it's not less of an art than when I first discovered it. And I feel the same with algorithms.


Now I understand , craftsmanship works similarly in both, and that art would be nothing without it.

It can also be understood how music can be "mathematics". You could say that programming is similar to learning about harmony and counterpoint, for example ?
Man, now I want to learn how to write code.

And @Sparky , How do you admit you played lol ?.
Also the fact that you like the joyful art says more about your personality, the history of art has always been the search for different types of emotions
To me dark and melancholic art makes me happy xD , Maybe you are right , people seeks that when they appreciate art , Isn't it an escape ?


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## Sparky (Mar 15, 2010)

superloco3000 said:


> Now I understand , craftsmanship works similarly in both, and that art would be nothing without it.
> 
> It can also be understood how music can be "mathematics". You could say that programming is similar to learning about harmony and counterpoint, for example ?
> Man, now I want to learn how to write code.
> ...


Art has always been man's attempt to leave his mark and hope for the future. As mentioned earlier, people of the Homosexual Sexual Temperament will at times be attracted to dark themed artwork, like how they are sometimes attracted to BDSM, gay sex or anal penetration.

League of Legends is the first MOBA I've played after playing DotA on a school computer, because it's free-to-play. I haven't looked at other free-to-play MOBA like Dota 2 or HoN since.


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