# Differences between LIE and SLE?



## Kikyo (Sep 18, 2014)

I have a hard time distinguishing both. It might be because they both often correlate with enneagram type 8. My friend is one of them, but I can't come to terms with which. Both descriptions seem fitting. Could you tell me how I can tell them apart?


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

LIE would not utilize Se as well as SLE would. SLE would probably live it, unless they were Ti subtype.

Also worth mentioning is that SLE can't come to terms with Ni. Ni is a part of LIE's worldview, because it's in their ego. SLE loves it, but can't use it, and if they do, it's very child-like.

Basically, you have a pretty present, powerful, active person who is usually very aware of their environment and exactly what's in it, and how to organize it (SLE), versus a person who is more concerned about efficiency, real world facts and objectivity, and plotting their course into the future. (LIE).

Does that help at all?

It may help even more if you break it down to the Quadras. Beta vs. Gamma differences.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

These are just my own observations, though I couldn't think of much.

Personally, I find SLEs are more of into "provoking" others than I am. They tend to make cheerful jokes and like to be merry, even around strangers. I'm more "boring" in comparison. Though I wouldn't call myself boring, but they are just more into entertaining others than I am. 

Also, when you listen to their intellectual ideas SLEs are more "categorical", they try to fit stuff into logical categories, whereas I'll try to describe my observations. 

In romance, I find SLEs are less likely to show emotions and be dramatic, and people are less likely to be aware of SLE's moods, in general. LIE has a "victim" attitude in romance, meaning they enjoy showing vulnerability once they have established trust, whereas SLEs like to appear "strong" to appeal to their dual(that would your type :wink who doesn't like weaknesses in others. 

I hope that helps.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Try not to focus on the behavioral characteristics because there will be various degrees of overlap for each type. It's only when we read about types through their functions that we understand the difference in interest and motivation, and where something is an exaggeration and where it isn't.

An *SLE* is a classic conqueror. Their use of Se is aggressive, forceful and pushy. That doesn't mean they're all jerks, it just means they're really good at making waves and getting things done their way, and it's easy for them to push people or rules around to that effect. They are really attuned to the hierarchy of power in the environment and are likely to want to be at the very top of it. They may often say things just to see if the other person feels pushed or uncomfortable, just to shake things up a little bit. 

Their biggest area of discomfort is close, personal relationships. They find it really difficult to tell whether they like or dislike someone or something, and they disdain systems of morality. That doesn't mean they have no values, but they really hate judging if something is good or bad for the current context. It's also difficult for them to talk about how MUCH they like or dislike something. They try to rationalize it away, and when other people talk about things they love or are attracted to, sometimes they will try to force a similar rationalization out of you -- for an Fi user, that can be really frustrating. They also have pretty bad senses of time. 

An *LIE* is the quintessential businessman. They're all about actualizing their visions and finding concrete, applicable ways to bring their big ideas into fruition. In contrast to the ILI, who is an Ni dom and hence focused on the idea itself, the LIE is more attuned to systems and results. They're rational types, so they systematically prune plans and ideas in terms of their efficiency, so that the big picture becomes more and more applicable in the long term. They rely hugely on what works and may covet facts and statistics that illustrate the reality of what happens to an idea when it is applied. They understand complicated models and hierarchies just as well as the SLE, but in contrast to them, devalue them entirely and focus instead on the results of propositions and context-dependent+input-dependent applications of things.

They really don't mind ignoring their physical condition or creature comforts if they're always getting closer and closer to their goal. This is similar to an Se dom, but unlike them the LIE feels seriously uncomfortable discussing even the smallest things like how temperature affects them. They may devalue good physical experiences entirely. For example, there was some guy a while ago who created a nutritious milkshake that fulfills every dietary need you have in the day and is super-healthy, but looks like mud and is devoid of any real taste. He doesn't care though, cause it gets him what he needs, and he doesn't have to waste time on preparing food before work either.

Unlike the SLE, the LIE really wants to understand how the distance and strength of relationships work. They can try, awkwardly, to understand and apply ethics, but it may often manifest as rather black-and-white, stubborn stances that are still filtered through Te and applied for the good of the masses. They struggle with understanding nuances in personal experience and may often talk about things that they like and dislike by means of their utility to them, rather than their innate value. But they really do try to learn, which the SLE doesn't. The SLE's biggest hangup is the long-term consequences of their actions, especially how those actions affect people. The LIE, in comparison, is well familiar with how things flow, and are really good at understanding and conceptualizing something's progress through time.


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## Typhon (Nov 13, 2012)

@_Night Huntress_

Stressing functions over behaviors might not get the result one wants when typing other people, because I don't know whats in someone else's head. Thats why I was stressing behaviors over cognition in my post, though I agree that socionics is more about cognition and not about behaviors directly. I also agree that behaviors overlap and thats why I had such a hard time thinking of differences in my post.

Not that I disagree with most of your description, though.


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## Vermillion (Jan 22, 2012)

Typhon said:


> @_Night Huntress_
> 
> Stressing functions over behaviors might not get the result one wants when typing other people, because I don't know whats in someone else's head. Thats why I was stressing behaviors over cognition in my post, though I agree that socionics is more about cognition and not about behaviors directly. I also agree that behaviors overlap and thats why I had such a hard time thinking of differences in my post.
> 
> Not that I disagree with most of your description, though.


I don't doubt that behaviors have their own merit. However, we must remember that they are observable manifestations, and can manifest as a result of various different things. An "aggressive" person can be aggressive for SO many different reasons. They could be insecure, they could just be competitive, they could just be a stereotypical SLE. Who knows? 

We have to see what information they produce and value from others. _That's_ where the differences come into play. That requires a decent amount of knowledge of how and what the person communicates, but that doesn't necessitate "looking into their head", though being a psychic would certainly help


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## Kikyo (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks a lot for your insights. My problem is that if my friend is an ESTP, he's most likely the Ti-subtype which seem more self-contained to me, and maybe would look more like a LIE.

I guess that one way to find out would be paying attention to the use of Te vs Ti, as each type uses one more than the other. How can I tell, though?

Also do you have examples of SLE using Ni poorly?



Night Huntress said:


> They also have pretty bad senses of time.


It's interesting to note but I have read that LIE can also have a poor sense of time, so I'm a bit confused.



> It does not make sense to ask LIE when he plans to return hom or about his plans for the evening. He for sure will not answer such questions with much specificity (moreover, such questions usually irritate him.) Leaving the house, he automatically transforms into the "hunter after success" who orients by his intuition. Therefore, even LIE himself doesn't know approximately how long will be his work day (which has the effect of complicating the lives of the members of his household).


When he refers to close future without being too sure of the exact precise moment, he would just say "soon". And it's very frequent. If you ask him for more precisions, he would add "very soon" and that's it. He totally fits what's written above, but could it be the case if he was an ESTP too?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Kikyo said:


> Thanks a lot for your insights. My problem is that if my friend is an ESTP, he's most likely the Ti-subtype which seem more self-contained to me, and maybe would look more like a LIE.
> 
> I guess that one way to find out would be paying attention to the use of Te vs Ti, as each type uses one more than the other. How can I tell, though?
> 
> ...


LIE has Ti ignoring and doesn't give a fuck for Ti. Frameworks are used to justify productivity and efficiency. 

As for the quote, the irritation probably comes from si polr here. LIE will work until the job is done, kind of. 

And no, SLE has ignoring Si so comfortable needs fit into an Se scheme. They understand si and can engage it but really don't care much. 

Check the celebrity typing thread. There are plenty of examples of sles vs lses there. They are very different in terms of mannerisms.


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## cyamitide (Jul 8, 2010)

Reading through the SLE and LIE subtypes might help to tell them apart: Socionics - the16types.info - Type and subtype descriptions by Meged and Ovch

This page has many discussions of how to tell X and Y types apart here but I don't see anything about ESTp and ENTj: Socionics Links

The easiest way to tell them apart for me has been by the orientation of their logic. SLEs logic is introverted, static function, while LIEs logic is extraverted and dynamic. SLE's Ti logic feels stubborn and subjectivist (self-referencing): "I think so, because I think, because I think. Period." LIE's Te logic feels light and dynamic, oriented at some externals rather than subjectivist opinion, and contains no consistency whatsoever: within the span on same discussion the LIE can give you one argument, and then 5 minutes later contradict what they have previously said. It logic thinking on the fly.

Due to strong Se (which is a perceiving function) ESTps very quickly notice (percept) things around themselves. Where they have difficulty is in distancing from those exact perceptions, and assessing the general situation and the dynamics of where things are going (static type with weak intuition). Thus, similar to ESIs who also have weak intuition, SLEs rely on "testing things out live" instead (which could include provocation). LIEs have strong intuition that has no difficulty getting the drift, catching the general picture, and easily surfing through time and information--because of this, they have less need to submerse themselves into the real world than do SLEs and SEEs (and sometimes seem to be covert nerds, despite their Se and extraversion).

This might also be helpful: SLE - a look from inside - show this to your friend to see if he relates.


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