# What really means you are a F vs T?



## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

I'm probably just as emotional as an ENFP peer. The difference is the way we reason and evaluate situations. We can be very similar due to being Ne dominant, but the Ti or Fi can colour that. Since the auxiliary function has the unique property of turning on and off at random to support the dominant function, maybe most of the time, ENxPs can look identical to one another. But, once you trigger the Ti/Fi flag, then you see a stark difference.

You push an ENFP's button going against something they 'believe in', and they will Fi-rage with Fi-passion.

You push an ENTP's button, going against something they believe is 'accurate', and they will Ti-rage with Ti-passion.

I dunno if that explains it well. I just know that there are certain sparks that trigger an auxiliary flag, and once you do that, it's very obvious.

I think what it comes down to though, is probably the tertiary function. Surprisingly, it can be more obvious than auxiliary-- It might even be used more often, even if it's not to the strength of the auxiliary. When it comes down to Fe vs. Te, I think it's actually a lot easier to see, because they're very different functions.

I apply that reasoning to other types, and it becomes easy to narrow down function order. Sometimes, the weaknesses in cognition show the strengths, sometimes vice versa.


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## shakti (Oct 10, 2012)

I have always been confused by this dichotomy, too, and often have no idea how to answer questions in personality tests.

I have become way more sensitive in the past few years, and am overcoming my compulsion to over-rely on what seems "rational" or "logical". The problem is I have no way to tell which preference feels more "natural" to me since I have changed so much through the years. Also, often I wish I was more gentle and guided by emotions, so this may be skewing my results, too. Dunno


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## ALongTime (Apr 19, 2014)

jinhong91 said:


> I think both Thinking and Feeling are poorly chosen words.
> 
> Should be something along the lines of Objectivity vs Subjectively.
> Do you distance yourself from it or immerse in it?


Agreed, because all cognitive functions are technically forms of "thinking" in its conventional definition. I made the argument that they should be called objective and subjective a while ago but I've gone back on that.

I like the socionics terminology best for this, in that they're both rational but thinking (logic) is abstract, and feeling (ethics) is involved.


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## pianodog (Jan 25, 2013)

That makes ALOT of sense. Considering how I get easily offended by others, tend to take criticism personally, and have difficulties accepting beliefs of others who clash with mine, I'd say I'm definitely a Fi even though I use Te for most of my interests. Also I recall at camp a few weeks ago, on the last day I was worn out from getting up at 6:30 going to bed at 12:00 every night and working constantly. I noticed that I really liked discussing tender issues and feelings, and things about myself then and not so much technical stuff. I also notice that I become VERY sensitive when I'm tired where as normally I try to logically think about why someone does something in an analytical fashion. Also, I become so random and crazy no one has any idea what I'm talking about at that point lol 

Different tasks will show you though which you are too. For example, I like music theory and science so I tend to be using Te all the time, but my Fi is always coloring that, which I see now. Then I tried writing a book and good crap, the Fi came flowing through! I was so passionate about my characters, I hurt to let something happen to them and my story's main tension came from emotional conflict, regardless of it being an action graphic novel.


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## BleuBlake (Nov 23, 2013)

baby blue me said:


> I'm not so good in English myself. I meant thanks a lot. No sarcasm intended.


Ok


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

BleuBlake said:


> I think Fi is not properly about people, it is more related to idea/value, then go for what's right and wrong.
> Fe is more about people and their behaviors.
> Idea+Fi= pick up the concept of the idea and see if it can be integrated in inner system through meanings/right and wrong.
> Idea+Ti= break down the idea in little parts and see if it is logically functional to the inner system.
> Do you agree?


Perhaps, but if so, it is a very fine line. Values, right/wrong, etc., are things that pertain specifically to people. There is no substance for morals without people and their actions/behaviors.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Hotaru said:


> They're some kind of lens you see the world through, like a pair of glasses! Think of the expression 'rose tinted glasses' and adapt it to MBTI, feelers see any situation through ethics and morality and the way they or other people _feel_ about something which is some kind of strong emotion but it has little to do with being emotional or sensitive (though most of us are!) while thinkers tend to think of logic first, no matter if their own or something external and universally approved. Feelers can be rational and objective but there will always be some kind of emotional response behind it, some kind of very ethical filter that thinkers usually wouldn't consider immediately! But thinkers can be fluffy and angsty too♥
> 
> You can hold it in but it's really hard I've tried to use only Te (my inferior function) and I ended up straining my Fi so it exploded all over the place (still a mess to clean up!). Of course, the more you mature, the more you develop all the functions you have. It takes time to become a superhero! I'm a Fi-dom and I can pick up the way I'm feeling about something immediately, even if it's 'illogical' and since I'm so FiNe , I tend to put myself in other people's shoes and internalize and sense what they are feeling, even when I don't understand why. It's a huge loop of possibilities and 'what ifs' all related to the way something speaks to you, even if it makes little 'logical' sense.
> 
> *But I can't find the right words to express this so I'm sorry if it sounds like word vomit...*


Seriously??? This is one of the clearest posts in the thread.




Word Dispenser said:


> I'm probably just as emotional as an ENFP peer. The difference is the way we reason and evaluate situations. We can be very similar due to being Ne dominant, but the Ti or Fi can colour that. Since the auxiliary function has the unique property of turning on and off at random to support the dominant function, maybe most of the time, ENxPs can look identical to one another. But, once you trigger the Ti/Fi flag, then you see a stark difference.
> 
> You push an ENFP's button going against something they 'believe in', and they will Fi-rage with Fi-passion.
> 
> ...


I relate to having more of a "Ti rage" based on this post but perhaps, what I experience as an IFJ is "Ni rage"? Few things piss me off more than someone attempting to sway my perception of events via emotional manipulation but I am extremely introverted and can almost always tell how someone else is feeling.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> Seriously??? This is one of the clearest posts in the thread.


♥



LostFavor said:


> Perhaps, but if so, it is a very fine line. Values, right/wrong, etc., are things that pertain specifically to people. There is no substance for morals without people and their actions/behaviors.


Fi values are subjective, they don't come from other people but the way any kind of information on Ne-idea is seen and perceived. I'm a Fi-dom and I always consider what's right and what's wrong before anything else because I can't avoid it, it makes me feel conflicted, guilty and sick to do something that I consider against my values, no matter what T-logic or Fe values have to say about it. People matter but we filter their emotions and values and actions through our own personal code and the way we would react if we were in their shoes (Fi empathy + Ne curiosity) if that makes sense.


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## Chesire Tower (Jan 19, 2013)

Hotaru said:


> ♥
> 
> 
> Fi values are subjective, they don't come from other people but the way any kind of information on Ne-idea is seen and perceived. I'm a Fi-dom and I always consider what's right and what's wrong before anything else because I can't avoid it, it makes me feel conflicted, guilty and sick to do something that I consider against my values, no matter what T-logic or Fe values have to say about it. People matter but we filter their emotions and values and actions through our own personal code and the way we would react if we were in their shoes (Fi empathy + Ne curiosity) if that makes sense.


I value what makes the most sense to me and not hurting other people's feelings; however, in rare case that I am dealing with someone who is both behaving idiotically and with bad faith, I will disregard their feelings.


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

Snowflake Whisperer said:


> I value what makes the most sense to me and not hurting other people's feelings; however, in rare case that I am dealing with someone who is both behaving idiotically and with bad faith, I will disregard their feelings.


The best example of Fi vs Fe I've read was this: "A Fe user will hold the door open for a group of people, making sure that everyone gets in. A Fi user won't care until they notice the person who got the door slammed in their face, wanting to help them." Fe is focusing on people as a group, Fi is focusing on individuals. Also, Fe users are a lot less messy than Fi users when it comes to their own emotions, they're much more focused on other people's values and making sure there's harmony.


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## BleuBlake (Nov 23, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> Perhaps, but if so, it is a very fine line. Values, right/wrong, etc., are things that pertain specifically to people. There is no substance for morals without people and their actions/behaviors.


But values aren't only about people.
Logic and values are different way of judging the same things, different approach to the same concept - human experience and what concerns it, aren't they?


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## Bahburah (Jul 25, 2013)

BleuBlake said:


> I think it's right what you have been told. Te is your tertiary function, so it is important for you (third in eight stack of function), also, for personal experience, i think the development of a Tx function is pretty destabilizing for an F types - as well the development of Fx for a T user.
> Anyway, i believe that when we are developing a function, we indulge in that function in the first moment and only later, with experience, we learn how to balance it with the others functions.
> Personally, when i read about NT becoming "machines without hearts" and NF becoming "too emotional, irrational" i start a little laugh, because F vs T is a preference that we learn to balance with time; we prefer F or T, yep, but a person won't never be totally F or totally T, so that generalization is just ridicolous, IMO.
> 
> ...



This is exactly right.
Check out these very Fe videos on reading peoples cognitive functions through there facial expressions and body language.

Just look at how often people use there other functions, it's just as much and even more than there dom function in some cases. What is important is the order it goes through though and that effects a lot. I also think that people show there extroverted functions more than there introverted ones, naturally.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

BleuBlake said:


> But values aren't only about people.
> Logic and values are different way of judging the same things, different approach to the same concept - human experience and what concerns it, aren't they?





Hotaru said:


> Fi values are subjective, they don't come from other people but the way any kind of information on Ne-idea is seen and perceived. I'm a Fi-dom and I always consider what's right and what's wrong before anything else because I can't avoid it, it makes me feel conflicted, guilty and sick to do something that I consider against my values, no matter what T-logic or Fe values have to say about it. People matter but we filter their emotions and values and actions through our own personal code and the way we would react if we were in their shoes (Fi empathy + Ne curiosity) if that makes sense.


I get the feeling we're talking past each other here. Could you guys define values for me, in your own words? (Whether that is actually your own words or a dictionary reference - whichever one you're thinking of when you talk about values.)

Thanks.


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## Doc Dangerstein (Mar 8, 2013)

shakti said:


> I have always been confused by this dichotomy, too, and often have no idea how to answer questions in personality tests.
> 
> I have become way more sensitive in the past few years, and am overcoming my compulsion to over-rely on what seems "rational" or "logical". The problem is I have no way to tell which preference feels more "natural" to me since I have changed so much through the years. Also, often I wish I was more gentle and guided by emotions, so this may be skewing my results, too. Dunno


... being gentle doesn't always follow from being guided by emotion. A person is still guided by feelings when he or she is guided by anger or disgust. I promise you that a person is anything but gentle when they are guided by such emotions. 

With regards to the questionaire, there should be a follow up questions that determine your reasoning behind your answers. I'm always a feeler on humanmetrics and similar tests because I see the shortcomings of the thinker answers provided. Furthermore I can explain these shortcomings and show why going feeler on a question would make more sense.

A feeler may answer in favour of mercy because it is humane, or offer an explanation that retribution is not justice. It is a projection of personal and social anger in which the punishing parties are absolved of the feeling of guilt. A thinker might argue that the mechanics of the judicial system are inconclusive and therefore it would be rational to show leniency because there exists a possibility of the person being innocent. Another argument would be that strict punishment would encourage retaliation and foster a culture of social discontents.



... quick aside. I wonder if "values" is one of those axiomatic terms we take on faith. Values are a personal projection of what I believe is good onto society and the rest of the world. It is an expression of how things ought to be rather than how things are. Then again, how does one objectively define good? That's really opening a can of worms, isn't it?


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

LostFavor said:


> I get the feeling we're talking past each other here. Could you guys define values for me, in your own words? (Whether that is actually your own words or a dictionary reference - whichever one you're thinking of when you talk about values.)
> 
> Thanks.


Oh man.

I can't really explain this in a linear way and I'm probably no representative of INFPs or fitting into any type at all but it's one of those things that are so obvious yet so weird to explain. I just have strong feelings about things but they don't exactly turn into a final idea, I also do hardcore stream of consciousness and hate the idea of absolutes. Say, there's a discussion about something, not even big things like racism or bullying maybe something like quitting your job out of the blue to follow your dream or what would be the best major for someone to study and I'm like, I don't even listen to what the majority is saying or what would be the most logical choice in that case. I mentally put myself in that situation, wonder about what feels more right to me in that situation and it's like maybe you've never studied a certain thing ever before in your life and it will lead you nowhere, maybe that job is the most secure thing to ever happen to them but I still don't care. I'd feel stuck in a rat cage if it was me, I'd leap back to the days when I needed to sneak out of class and my head and wish my back then boyfriend would whisk me away. Sometimes things just feel perfect for you and you don't know why? Sometimes, you want to do a certain thing for no other reason that it's the right thing right now? There's self preservation, there's self consciousness and heart eating guilt but that's exactly Fi-feeling too. When you can't even look at an argument because everyone leaps to cold conclusions without even considering any kind of moral struggle behind them? You don't care about the details or the concrete implications, you just fall in love (or hate) a certain idea and then another and another again? Something would make sense by the way it's been presented to you, facts and data and all, but it just doesn't fit you? Internally you can't see that? Even being indifferent towards something means using a feeling function because you're considering something subjectively, indifference is a feeling too. I don't even know what I'm trying to say at this point and I probably confused you even more.


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## Mimic octopus (May 3, 2014)

In the descriptions of thinking and feeling in mbti theory it talks about "decisions". Can someone explain what exactly is meant by decisions in this context?


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## BleuBlake (Nov 23, 2013)

LostFavor said:


> I get the feeling we're talking past each other here. Could you guys define values for me, in your own words? (Whether that is actually your own words or a dictionary reference - whichever one you're thinking of when you talk about values.)
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not sure to be able to describe them. @Hotaru have done a good job, i''ve understand what she mean, but maybe because i'm a Fi-Dom like her. I imagine that it can be difficult from the perspective of a x-dom (I personally find Fi and Ni the most difficult function to understand).
Try to imagine an ocean. A lot of water, maybe in surface it can seems calm, still, but in the depths there are a lot of marine currents. Some of them are stronger, some are fainter.
The ocean is us, currents are our "values". I feel like i'm talking waste - i'm not sure to be able to explain this, it's a really hard answer.
I can't help you in this - so i leave here an interesting part of the Fi-dom's description from Jung, in which i find myself:


> It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision. It glides unheedingly over all objects that do not fit with its aim. It strives after inner intensity, for which the objects serve at most as stimulus.
> The primordial images are, of course, just as much ideas as feelings. Fundamental ideas, ideas like God, freedom, and immortality, are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas. Everything, therefore, that we have said about introverted thinking is equally true of introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought.


(http://personalitycafe.com/infp-articles/70527-jung-introverted-feeling-type.html)


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## BleuBlake (Nov 23, 2013)

Patrick_1 said:


> In the descriptions of thinking and feeling in mbti theory it talks about "decisions". Can someone explain what exactly is meant by decisions in this context?


There are two types of function: functions of perception (Nx,Sx - they take information) and judgement functions (Fx,Tx - they make decisiong, judge what perception functions have perceive).
We judge everything we perceive. I don't know how answer well to your question, hope someone can help you - if you want, take a look to sticky thread in Cognitive Function section of the forum


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

pianodog said:


> There is alot of stereotyping with F vs T as being higher in the function stack, while I'm thinking for sure I'm an ENFP, I'm quite a conceptual person, I like inventing things and ideas and playing with possibilities of implementing them in my music I compose, as well as I grasp technical stuff VERY easily, as long as I can reason in a circular pattern.
> 
> That being said, I felt more like an F due to the way I feel close to people and get attached to friends. But ultimately, I figured I was ENFP and not ENTP simply because I show no sign of Fe what so ever - Super awkward in unfamiliar social situations, lack understanding of many social things, don't give a crap normally of what everyone else is doing, usually act hyper even when others are calm. So that rules out ENTP unless I misunderstood.
> 
> ...


Idk, I don't really like people in general to be honest ^^; and I'm a trained psychologist...or was going to practice, but then I found out I enjoy taking things apart and fixing them more then people and I can't stand some people  especially for extended periods of time / no interest in helping them either...and I consider myself an F. If I have to aide someone for a longer period I have this gut feeling that I'm being burdened and want out of the situation. I prefer to give people practical solutions and let them fix themselves if they want to. I don't like being the shoulder to cry on (even thou sometimes this happens) and I get annoyed if people vent to me.

Not very emotional, more along the lines of normal average for a guy when it comes to this. I'm some sort of phlegmatic/melancholic mix of an xNFP who has an easier time with machines & animals then people. I understand people emotionally and intuitively really well, sometimes better they they themselves (but I make mistakes), my guess is that this is precisely why I'm turned off from them >.> overcoming negative thinking, the moderate social phobia...hasn't changed anything about this I just feel calm nowadays but the value of it seems the same to me and I don't remember it ever being different.

On the outside I seem to be very approachable, calm and easy to get along with, but I rarely make proactive efforts to be that with people.

Don't get me wrong some people I really love to be with , but as you can see I don't base my F status on emotionality or people friendliness at all, it has to do with my Fi and how easy it is to use by default without even wanting to or being aware of.

*TLTR: *I'm F because of Fi.


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## LostFavor (Aug 18, 2011)

Hotaru said:


> Oh man.
> 
> I can't really explain this in a linear way and I'm probably no representative of INFPs or fitting into any type at all but it's one of those things that are so obvious yet so weird to explain. I just have strong feelings about things but they don't exactly turn into a final idea, I also do hardcore stream of consciousness and hate the idea of absolutes. Say, there's a discussion about something, not even big things like racism or bullying maybe something like quitting your job out of the blue to follow your dream or what would be the best major for someone to study and I'm like, I don't even listen to what the majority is saying or what would be the most logical choice in that case. I mentally put myself in that situation, wonder about what feels more right to me in that situation and it's like maybe you've never studied a certain thing ever before in your life and it will lead you nowhere, maybe that job is the most secure thing to ever happen to them but I still don't care. I'd feel stuck in a rat cage if it was me, I'd leap back to the days when I needed to sneak out of class and my head and wish my back then boyfriend would whisk me away. Sometimes things just feel perfect for you and you don't know why? Sometimes, you want to do a certain thing for no other reason that it's the right thing right now? There's self preservation, there's self consciousness and heart eating guilt but that's exactly Fi-feeling too. When you can't even look at an argument because everyone leaps to cold conclusions without even considering any kind of moral struggle behind them? You don't care about the details or the concrete implications, you just fall in love (or hate) a certain idea and then another and another again? Something would make sense by the way it's been presented to you, facts and data and all, but it just doesn't fit you? Internally you can't see that? Even being indifferent towards something means using a feeling function because you're considering something subjectively, indifference is a feeling too. I don't even know what I'm trying to say at this point and I probably confused you even more.





BleuBlake said:


> I'm not sure to be able to describe them. @_Hotaru_ have done a good job, i''ve understand what she mean, but maybe because i'm a Fi-Dom like her. I imagine that it can be difficult from the perspective of a x-dom (I personally find Fi and Ni the most difficult function to understand).
> Try to imagine an ocean. A lot of water, maybe in surface it can seems calm, still, but in the depths there are a lot of marine currents. Some of them are stronger, some are fainter.
> The ocean is us, currents are our "values". I feel like i'm talking waste - i'm not sure to be able to explain this, it's a really hard answer.
> I can't help you in this - so i leave here an interesting part of the Fi-dom's description from Jung, in which i find myself:
> ...


Ok, so I think what you guys are saying, in a nutshell, is as follows: You experience Fi as a highly personal and subjective interpretation of the world and of moral questions, so it is inaccurate to describe Fi as something pertaining to people because you can (and often do) experience it in a vacuum, devoid of reference to others. 

Does that sound accurate?


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