# 1984 according to different MBTI types



## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

I would like to get more book reviews and literary discussions going, and we can go the tedious route of thousands of people listing their favorite books, or we can invite discussion and dialogue on specific authors and titles we love. 1984 is not only my favorite book, it's probably one of the few in the thousands (who knows?) I've read which would be familiar with a mass audience. There's obscure esoterica like Prometheus Rising or Eros & Chaos which I'd love to get into, but I thought I'd start with something more popular.

As an ENTP/INTJ Enneagram 3, I think Orwell's haunting tone kind of appeals to me. It's urgent, imminent the destruction around him. The book starts off with the main character climbing the stairs to his apartment because the elevator is out of service, there's no sugar but only saccharine, inferior tobacco, inferior housing, inferior equipment. And they find love in the dystopia, I guess they live their ideals no matter what. -- More importantly, it's a political work. Dystopias are actually descriptions of our present reality (Brave New World, for example, questions the mechanization and mass production of society). We have to be very aware and vigilant of government (or private) monitoring, OnStar and national ID cards and such.

I love George Orwell's work across the board. One of the best sources I've learn for writing English well is his 1946 essay Politics and the English Language. Animal Farm of course is another classic, and required reading. Whether as a language theorist, or political thinker, or philosopher of human nature, George Orwell is my favorite popular writer. I will read him to my children.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

I haven't actually read it, but have gotten it spoiled to me via TV Tropes and, I've got to say, it sounds like something I'd hate. I'm a big believer in hope, and I find stuff that leaves no possibility for it nauseating. I'm of the opinion that the system will eventually fall. I see history in cycles. One empire falls and a new one rises up out of the ashes. The oppressors become the oppressed and the tyrannical is overtaken by the idealistic, humanitarian new society, which becomes again what it hates, which is then overthrown...

I see "political commentary" in literature as blah blah blah. I don't relate books to the world like that. I relate them to my own experiences, but not as some grand commentary on the world. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE overthinking about things, but it's just not how I overthink it. My style of analysis involves delving into looking how I look at things, meta, if you will. It doesn't matter if other people say it's about politics or whatever, I'm concerned with what _I_ interpret from the book. In discussions I am interested in hearing other people's interpretations and altering my own in light of them.


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## TheRedPyro (Jul 1, 2010)

I actually really enjoyed the book, even though it was depressing as hell and essentially a ridiculously up-scale erotica novel! Some of the concepts were fantastic, especially the famous things like Room 101 and Doublethink!

Doublethink made so much sense to me, because I think I do it on a nearly daily basis, and it was amazing to see an author take time to explain such a complex idea and make it make sense.

I also saw the film with John Hurt and it was really good, but the whole thing with Room 101 REALLY dissappointed me, it was so anti-climactic! The description in the book made it seem absolutely horrific, but that scene in the film is actually quite laughable =P

Sorry I went into film rather than literature, but film is my main love, literature is secondary... But I love it when the two cross and I can cross-reference


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

I enjoyed the book, its a good story and he has made some good predictions. Im also aware that the book was written during a time of political upheaval, a time influenced by fascist, nazi values and apathy really quite similar to todays undemocratic governmental structure. It has a good twist at the end when he gets caught out and Orwell does a good job of making the story and certain elements unnerving like reading about the Towers of Love, the chambers of torture. Its a very dark book and did leave me a little confused at the end as to whether the guy survived but no one gets out alive. Im careful though not to take the story a step too far though and start seeing conspiracies everywhere. A recommended read.


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## gatsby (Sep 6, 2012)

@DistilledMacrocosm You're absolutely right about the haunting tone, I almost feel like that's the best way to describe the work on the whole.

It's been a few years since I first read it, but some of the scenes will stick in my head forever. I particularly enjoyed the thrush and the coral paperweight, they added a certain sense of..._loss _to the novel, I think. Again, I've only read it once, so I probably wouldn't be the best suited for delving into the metaphorical significance of much, but I did thoroughly enjoy the book. I've seen Winston typed as an INFP elsewhere, and I did feel a certain connection to him. I just desperately want to believe that I'd never give in...but the book and reason both suggest that there are certain things that no person could endure.

_Oranges and lemons say the bells of St. Clements..._


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## Trinidad (Apr 16, 2010)

Phew, it's been more than ten years since I read it, so I can't comment on the style and such, but I thought it was... alright. I liked the ideas behind it more than the actual story. Also, I read Brave New World about a year later and thought that was much superior in every way. I plan on rereading these as soon as I finish my current books (I read two or three books at a time).
I did really like Newspeak 

Disclaimer: Have never seen the movie adaptations.


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## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> As an ENTP/INTJ


How are you both? Or do you mean as one of the two?


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

gatsby said:


> I particularly enjoyed the thrush and the coral paperweight, they added a certain sense of..._loss _to the novel, I think.


I read the novel on my own, but my English teacher in 11th grade made us read it for class, and the shattered coral was her favorite part.



> I've seen Winston typed as an INFP elsewhere, and I did feel a certain connection to him. I just desperately want to believe that I'd never give in...but the book and reason both suggest that there are certain things that no person could endure.


That's so interesting. I do love the book for its dreamer aspect. They find love in a totalitarian state, making love in a remote forest if they have to get away from the State. So Winston as an INFP I never drew that connection before, and it's about the last type I'd put as my hero in a dystopia, but yes, it makes so much sense now. -- That book has inspired me to write with ink fountain pens too 



raichu said:


> How are you both? Or do you mean as one of the two?


When I wake up in the morning, the last thing I'm concerned about with is other people and charming a room full of people, so I'm rather INTJ. By the time I have to socially interact, I feel very ENTP. But by myself, alone, I can get lost in knowledge and illumination.


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## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> When I wake up in the morning, the last thing I'm concerned about with is other people and charming a room full of people, so I'm rather INTJ. By the time I have to socially interact, I feel very ENTP. But by myself, alone, I can get lost in knowledge and illumination.


Everyone has different moods, but that doesn't mean you're more than one type. INTJ and ENTP have completely different functions. INTJ is Ni Te Fi Se, and ENTP is Ne Ti Fe Si. Honestly, I don't want it to sound like I'm just saying you're wrong. I just wanna help you figure out which is your type. I act a lot different at times, too. I thought I was an ISFP for ages, because that's how I act when I'm out in public because I'm so shy. But I realized that when I'm comfortable, like at home or with close friends, I'm completely an ISTP. It's not weird to act differently in different situations, but it's just you favoring different functions. I have moods when I'm by myself where I'll be like just using the Ti and Ni, and I'm really quiet and serious and thoughtful and stuff. Especially when I'm with my ENFP sister, though, she brings out the funny side of me. She thinks I'm always hilarious, but the truth is that I'm only ever that funny when I'm with her. And when I'm talking to my INFP sister, we have really deep conversations about feelings and life and things that I never even think about otherwise. Changing moods, though, is completely covered in the personality types. Like I said, I act an awful lot like an ISFP when I'm at class or something with a bunch of strangers, but it's not because I change type, it's because I'm nervous and anxious and shy. Also, my F/T is pretty close to borderline, and it happens sometimes where people will be caught in between on a letter. In the end, though, if you look at the profiles and the functions of each type, there'll usually be one that stands out. Try reading up on the functions, that's bound to help you out.


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

raichu said:


> Honestly, I don't want it to sound like I'm just saying you're wrong. I just wanna help you figure out which is your type.


No, not at all, thank you for your opinion. I totally understand why you think it's not possible.



> INTJ is Ni Te Fi Se, and ENTP is Ne Ti Fe Si.


I think I understand Functional Analysis theory, I've been using TypeLogic's website for years. I think I started thinkin' I was more of an INTJ when I noticed they were both NTFS, so often whenever I flip, which is hard for me, being such an extrovert, but sometimes I ... feel overwhelmed by people (rarely) and feel that distinct Introverted drain around people.

I have a theory, that the best MBTI type we should date or marry is our Anima , for some reason , I think it's best suited for our romantic harmony. Your anima has the same functions, but reversed order (your inferior function is their dominant, and vice versa). -- I find most MBTI romance charts predict along these lines too, but not precisely. ((_Google_ "*<your MBTI type> gesher*" _for the Winer foundation's romance suggestions on your specific type's page.))_

Yeah, so sometimes, I pretty darn sure my functions flip. My Ne becomes Ni, Ti > Te (I'm known to mouth someone off after waking), Fe > Fi, and Si > Se. And it's mostly in the morning, and after an hour or so, I settle down into ENTP mode.

-- I have one huge difference with most men who test as ENTPs. They're snarky and sarcastic, and for such an Ne dominant type, some are quite ... unintellectual. Maybe this is a Nerd / Jock difference and not personality type, -- but yeah, that's a big reason I can't identify as an ENTP all the way. (In Socionics I type as an ENTj, and that I feel is much more description of how my mind works, as much as the MBTI ENTP. -- This divide crosses over into the Enneagram. ENTP is usually 3, and most of my life, I've sworn I'm an ENTP, but I've felt half of me is introverted, and much like the Enneagram 5, which corresponds to INTJ. Although some INTJ's I've met have typed as 7.)

I'd love your input. -- From my words and mannerism of speaking so far, do I type as an ENTP or INTJ to you? I'd say INTJ's are reticent and of few words, so I think my ENTP persona is turned on. Oh, Jung goes into this, as does Joseph Campbell, but we have a persona (the mask we put on for society), and then we have a shadow (and in the shadow is where our treasure lies), and we have an anima as well, the rebellious personality we suppress.


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## Raichu (Aug 24, 2012)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> Ti > Te (I'm known to mouth someone off after waking)





DistilledMacrocosm said:


> I have one huge difference with most men who test as ENTPs. They're snarky and sarcastic


I can be quite rude, actually, and I’m Ti-dom. Snarky and sarcastic and all the rest of it, though my sister likes to call it “cheeky.” My dad, though, who’s second function is Te (ISTJ, I’m pretty sure), would never do that. Not because he wouldn’t wanna hurt their feelings, but it’s just really important to him that people are respectful. Same with my other sister, who I think also has Te either first or second. She’s almost never sarcastic, or at least not in a rude way. I think Te is much more likely to be a little bossy than snarky.



DistilledMacrocosm said:


> and for such an Ne dominant type, some are quite ... unintellectual. Maybe this is a Nerd / Jock difference and not personality type, -- but yeah, that's a big reason I can't identify as an ENTP all the way.


I don’t think Ne is necessarily very intellectual. I have another sister (last one, promise) who’s an ENFP, and she’s not at all. I mean, she’s smart, but on a scale from nerd to jock… Well, actually, I don’t know. I was gonna say she’s usually pretty popular, which she is, but she also plays dungeons and dragons.



DistilledMacrocosm said:


> I'd love your input. -- From my words and mannerism of speaking so far, do I type as an ENTP or INTJ to you? I'd say INTJ's are reticent and of few words, so I think my ENTP persona is turned on


It’s really hard to tell in typing, because I know I come across as a lot smarter than I sound in real life.  And just because you type a lot doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with speaking a lot. And I wish I knew more about INTJ’s and ENTP’s, but I’ve never met either that I know of.

Do you think you could be ENTJ?


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

raichu said:


> Do you think you could be ENTJ?


Hey, I think you're right, I can't be an ENTP who wakes up as an INTJ every morning. I ran into an article on this this illuminating thread, from this illuminating post:




Unicorntopia said:


> Yes I think I do some more Ni Ti loop stuff when I get social anxiety. I notice all the stuff with NiFe and then retract when I get scared and go on NiTi loops. This is what I have heard and what I think is the most likely culprit.


Which made me think you're right, I'm not an INTJ. This article talks http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html and my personality justs gets loopy sometimes between my Ne and Fe, but my thought processes are a ENTP to a T. I've fixed my signature and taken out the INTJ hybrid reference. THANKS A BILLION, I was wondering why INTJs take me the wrong way, despite my admiration and adoration of them.

I really like @TheRedPyro pointing out doublethink, it actually is the most important part of the book. Orwell is setting his ideals here, that the freedom to say 2+2=4 is connecting freedom to Truth, man as a rational being which the Party attacks. The party also attacks sex in the Junior Anti-Sex League as an assault on man as a biological being (as does religion, admittedly). It attacks familial institutions, which is modeled after Communist purges which did the same, but I suppose capitalist dictatorships had their fair share of people going missing in the middle of the night.
@Owfin, you're correct, 1984 offers no hope, and I rarely delve into this with people; but yeah, the fact that Winston gives up his girlfriend in the face of his worst fear of being eaten by rats, he gives up his greatest love and act of life and rebellion -- shows that man is frail, and a coward. I've had people on GoodReads BLAST me for expressing such an opinion, but, I dunno, I wrote this when I was like 18, so go easy if the writing is unpolished:




> The Government is to be watched and prevented from gaining too much power. Human nature is so malleable, it can believe anything with enough conditioning. Therefore, society must guard against the State brainwashing people.


You could say you don't like political commentary, but considering that every country in the world can make yogurt out of their milk, except in the US where it's pasteurized 5 times, fruits are genetically engineered to be less sweet to last longer for transport, -- I think we're already living in a society of substandard goods (sugar and high fructose corn syrup are toxins) and shitty cigarettes (American cigarettes are the worst in the world, sorry). 
@Trinidad, YOU THINK BRAVE NEW WORLD IS A BETTER BOOK? Maybe on predicting human nature. I highly suggest you read Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman, it describes how our society turned into Brave New World much more so than 1984, not that sex was completely stamped out and we were manufactured in test tubes, but whenever someone has a freaking out from industrialization and mechanization of society, we simply sedate them or ourselves. Prescription drug use is higher than illegal drug use in this country. Timothy Leary said watching 8 hours of television a day was equal to opium, in that it had a numbing effect, like Freud described "being in the womb" again.

Oh yeah, Trinidad, Newspeak is the other most important part of the book. Followed by the mini-book, his political theory of the Top Middle and Bottom of society, I always wished somebody would write a completion of that book somewhere. It does deserve to be finished.


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## Trinidad (Apr 16, 2010)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> @_Trinidad_, YOU THINK BRAVE NEW WORLD IS A BETTER BOOK? Maybe on predicting human nature. I highly suggest you read Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman, it describes how our society turned into Brave New World much more so than 1984, not that sex was completely stamped out and we were manufactured in test tubes, but whenever someone has a freaking out from industrialization and mechanization of society, we simply sedate them or ourselves. Prescription drug use is higher than illegal drug use in this country. Timothy Leary said watching 8 hours of television a day was equal to opium, in that it had a numbing effect, like Freud described "being in the womb" again.
> 
> Oh yeah, Trinidad, Newspeak is the other most important part of the book. Followed by the mini-book, his political theory of the Top Middle and Bottom of society, I always wished somebody would write a completion of that book somewhere. It does deserve to be finished.


YES I DO!  But this was years ago, it is highly likely that I change my mind upon rereading. Have added Amusing Ourselves to Death to my ever-growing reading list, thanks. I agree that aside from the way we procreate Brave New World is already upon us, a scary thought (and an entirely different discussion).

Btw, I agree that you sound more like an ENTP. I have a soft spot for NTPs and I like your style :kitteh:


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

@DistilledMacrocosm thank you for appreciating my post. . I would also like to note that when I go into the NiTi loop, my fear that was instigated by Ni Fe goes away pretty much and is replaced with apathy and a general dislike for social situations. Seeing others feelings and putting value on them (NiFe) and then putting that info on repeat for the future forever (NiTi) when their feelings have not been the best for you in the past can make for quite a pessimistic outlook. One can become quite narcissistic and removed from society. The upside is that it can lead to an outlook and knowledge brand new and very different from the norm and what has previously been established. It can lead to creativity on a whole new level.


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

Unicorntopia said:


> Seeing others feelings and putting value on them (NiFe) and then putting that info on repeat for the future forever (NiTi) when their feelings have not been the best for you in the past can make for quite a pessimistic outlook. One can become quite narcissistic and removed from society. The upside is that it can lead to an outlook and knowledge brand new and very different from the norm and what has previously been established. It can lead to creativity on a whole new level.


Yeah, your Ti is weak in the first place, it'll believe anything. I don't know how to suggest this to you, but stop hallucinating the worst case scenarios. Even if your excellent Ni is correct (and that it usually is), your conclusions are just all wrong. He loves you. I don't know who your SO is or what your specific situation is but all your worrying, he loves you or he wouldn't be with you. 

Tell me if that made any sense.


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## Unicorntopia (Jun 18, 2010)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> Yeah, your Ti is weak in the first place, it'll believe anything. I don't know how to suggest this to you, but stop hallucinating the worst case scenarios. Even if your excellent Ni is correct (and that it usually is), your conclusions are just all wrong. He loves you. I don't know who your SO is or what your specific situation is but all your worrying, he loves you or he wouldn't be with you.
> 
> Tell me if that made any sense.


WTF??? I have not had an SO in over 5yrs. The last guy I loved rejected me before the relationship could get off the ground. Recently (10monthafter him stopping talking to me) I went to his house and confessed my love for him and he rejected me again. He said he loved me too but never wants to be in a relationship with anyone ever again. There is a new prospect feelings wise but he is married and at least 15yrs older than I. Those are not hallucinations. They are actual external world happenings and facts and my feeling are simply so. I was not even referring to SOs in my previous post. I was talking about social situations in general. Also, my Ti is not week. It is just lower in preference for me personally so it gets thrown under the bus a lot.

That was quite an unexpected response to what I said. It took me completely by surprise and am not sure whether to be offended or think you have some special knowledge that I don't somehow.


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

Unicorntopia said:


> WTF??? I have not had an SO in over 5yrs. That was quite an unexpected response to what I said. It took me completely by surprise and am not sure whether to be offended or think you have some special knowledge that I don't somehow.


Sorry, I was projecting my previous INFJ SO's to you. When you talked about your T loop and a pessimistic future, I always had to guide her into believing that some hidden sleight she perceived was not me being cold and callous, and indeed, every day I had to remind her there's nothing wrong. It was alot of work, your T is very susceptible.


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## DistilledMacrocosm (Apr 11, 2012)

I found a quote by Orwell in Chris Hedges, *The World as We Know It*.

"When I sit down to write a book, I do not say to myself, 'I am going to produce a work of art.' I write because there is some lie that I want to expose, some fact to which is want to draw attention, and my initial concern is to get a hearing."

Possible the greatest reason I love Orwell. He was an NT.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

DistilledMacrocosm said:


> "When I sit down to write a book, I do not say to myself, 'I am going to produce a work of art.' I write because there is some lie that I want to expose, some fact to which is want to draw attention, and my initial concern is to get a hearing."


To me, that sounds like the recipe for something preachy and annoying. :mellow:


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

Owfin said:


> I haven't actually read it, but have gotten it spoiled to me via TV Tropes and, I've got to say, it sounds like something I'd hate. I'm a big believer in hope, and I find stuff that leaves no possibility for it nauseating. I'm of the opinion that the system will eventually fall. I see history in cycles. One empire falls and a new one rises up out of the ashes. The oppressors become the oppressed and the tyrannical is overtaken by the idealistic, humanitarian new society, which becomes again what it hates, which is then overthrown...
> 
> I see "political commentary" in literature as blah blah blah. I don't relate books to the world like that. I relate them to my own experiences, but not as some grand commentary on the world. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE overthinking about things, but it's just not how I overthink it. My style of analysis involves delving into looking how I look at things, meta, if you will. It doesn't matter if other people say it's about politics or whatever, I'm concerned with what _I_ interpret from the book. In discussions I am interested in hearing other people's interpretations and altering my own in light of them.


The scary part about 1984 is that it's not entirely unrealistic. It is possible (is this Ne speaking? lol). Although I do believe you are right -- the way the world has been working, it is highly unlikely that it would ever get to that level. But still, you do see that there are societies out there that seem eerily similar in ways to what is described in that book. It makes you look skeptically at your government and perhaps more easily see something there that you didn't before (not in the paranoid sense) and think: we shouldn't go farther down _this_ road. 

If that makes sense.

Don't rely on the TV tropes thing. It's best to actually read the book, which happens to be brilliant, even if what happens in the book is unlikely to happen now. The way the story unfolds is genius, so you can appreciate the structure and writing if nothing else.


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