# Why do you NT's like math?



## Happy

I am just curious to see some answers of why math fascinates you. What goes through your head when you are trying to solve a problem?


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## DayLightSun

It's the only thing that doesn't lie.


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## snail

Is that really it? I've been curious about this topic, too, because it has no appeal to me.  I can't even imagine what could possibly be exciting about it. It is about as fun as washing dishes, which is, of course, very boring unless I am daydreaming profusely while doing it. With math, enough focus is required to prevent any kind of fun, creative, meaningful thought, so even escapist fantasies can't redeem it.


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## DayLightSun

I like physics because there are laws that come with the math. 
So it becomes "tangible".
I also like that it is a perfect language. 
If a person that doesn't know English wrote it a English speaker would understand it.
Little things like comas instead of periods interchanged ofcorse.
And math does seek truth and usefulness. 
I like math and I really don't use it to the degree and engineer would.:wink:


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## εmptε

Really? I think math is somewhat boring. I mean I am good at it, but that doesn't mean I like it. I find science & history interesting, math is okay but its my best subject ... I hate the rules of language arts. It's probably because I've never had anyone teach me math the "fun" way I keep hearing about, I was always just talked too with no debating and no variation. I had the most fun with it when I taught myself.


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## DayLightSun

i like math when its expressed eloquently


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## DayLightSun

I think this question is really for the INTPs. They take math to the next level. ENTs like math for social purposes.


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## snail

How can a person like math for social purposes? Do extraverted mathematicians get to have wild math orgies that I haven't been invited to because I hate math? What kind of social life have I missed out on?


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## DayLightSun

Logical management. Like how to get someone to do something by convincing them with logic. I do it all the time works like a charm.


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## εmptε

daylightsun said:


> Logical management. Like how to get someone to do something by convincing them with logic. I do it all the time works like a charm.


Works like charm. Infact I say it's better then charm.


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## snail

Oh. Manipulation. :dry: When I need to manipulate someone, I usually just find an ENFJ to do it for me. I suck at it, and I don't really care about being able to do it effectively. 

As for arguing... I try to avoid it if possible.


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## DayLightSun

Lykos said:


> Works like charm. Infact I say it's better then charm.


Not always you would be surprised how much you can get away with charm.
Charm is an art form.


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## Trope

snail said:


> Is that really it? I've been curious about this topic, too, because it has no appeal to me. I can't even imagine what could possibly be exciting about it. It is about as fun as washing dishes, which is, of course, very boring unless I am daydreaming profusely while doing it. *With math, enough focus is required to prevent any kind of fun, creative, meaningful thought, so even escapist fantasies can't redeem it.*


I was with you all the way up until the bolded part. 

Math is everywhere. It's what keeps skyscrapers from falling down around you and computers growing exponentially faster over time. Even something like the culinary arts can be reduced to a delightful blend of physics and chemistry seasoned to taste.

It's more than just punching numbers into a calculator. It's the simplest derivation of complete truth that we are capable of creating based on observations of the world around us. The question isn't whether or not we can daydream about other things while doing math in our heads so much as whether we can grasp a substantial understanding of the patterns and numbers found everywhere we look.

In short, it's our purest logic.


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## DayLightSun

Trope said:


> I was with you all the way up until the bolded part.
> 
> Math is everywhere. It's what keeps skyscrapers from falling down around you and computers to growing exponentially faster over time. Even something like the culinary arts can be reduced to a delightful blend of physics and chemistry seasoned to taste.
> 
> It's more than just punching numbers into a calculator. It's the simplest derivation of complete truth that we are capable of creating based on observations of the world around us. The question isn't whether or not we can daydream about other things while doing math in our heads so much as whether we can grasp a substantial understanding of the patterns and numbers found everywhere we look.
> 
> In short, it's our purest logic.


I knew an INTP would so eloquently express *Math.*


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## Trope

daylightsun said:


> I knew an INTP would so eloquently express *Math.*


In all honesty, you had it with the first post in this thread. I merely expanded on it.


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## Nightriser

Thank you Trope and Daylight. It is part of the attempt to get at the substance of the universe; it seeks to describe truths that lie beneath the surface. However, I highly disagree that there is no creativity in math. It may be a trite example, but the Pythagorean theorem has some hundreds of different proofs. One I distinctly remember being developed by U.S. President James Garfield. The Pythagorean theorem was already known and proven, but he had found a new way of showing that it is true. A proof becomes an exercise in problem-solving, and NTs (perhaps INTs more than ENTs) are more than able to find creative ways of solving problems. I think one of my favorite proofs was Godel's incompleteness theorem. Godel encoded various symbols and statements into unique numbers, and used this to show that not all true theorems in a mathematical system can be proven to be true without contradiction. To quote Wikipedia: 


Wikipedia said:


> In order to prove the first incompleteness theorem, Gödel represented statements by numbers. Then the theory at hand, which is assumed to prove certain facts about numbers, also proves facts about its own statements. Questions about the provability of statements are represented as questions about the properties of numbers, which would be decidable by the theory if it were complete. In these terms, the Gödel sentence states that no natural number exists with a certain, strange property. A number with this property would encode a proof of the inconsistency of the theory. If there were such a number then the theory would be inconsistent, contrary to the consistency hypothesis. So, assuming the theory is consistent (as done in the theorem's hypothesis) there is no such number.


This was a very unconventional method, but still highly effective. As such, I'm inclined to be fascinated with it. Even in my classes, I strive for this unconventionality, because it is part of the creativity of mathematics, to find new ways of interpreting some idea, to find new ways to solve a problem. 

In short, I was first drawn to it because of the problem-solving aspect. It was thrilling for me to struggle through an algebra problem then finally find the solution. 

Secondly, mathematicians regard certain theorems and proofs with an aesthetic eye. That is what my second signature quote is about, from a very famous nineteenth-century mathematician. Of course, the mathematical idea of elegance isn't something everyone sees, so I'd understand if you still disagree about the elegance. However, mathematicians still have a soul--they favor proofs and theorems that are beautiful, elegant, and deep. This is how I chose my senior thesis. Galois theory is considered to be just that because of the surprising relationship it describes between two seemingly unrelated objects. 

Yeah, I'll stop now.


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## Alanna

I've always liked math because it has unbreakable rules. There is always a right answer, and never any ambiguity.

I'm an English major in university right now, taking calculus for fun, and it is definitely my easiest course. With English there is always a million "right" answers, and writing an essay can go pretty much any way you want to. I feel I have to manipulate my words in order to express what I'm trying to say, because even words are horribly ambiguous (just think of all the words that have more than one meaning). Meaning in writing is defined by the context, and you have to very carefully pick the words you want to use and put them in a context in which their meaning is clear. Whereas in math, to express the answer I think is right is very easy. There is a beauty and a simplicity in deriving an answer. And although there is only one right answer, there is still a creativity about how you get there. It is intensely satisfying to figure out how to do something a different way than the way it was taught to you.

As a side note, I'm probably switching into an engineering course next year .


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## snail

Alanna said:


> *I've always liked math because it has unbreakable rules. There is always a right answer, and never any ambiguity.
> *
> I'm an English major in university right now, taking calculus for fun, and it is definitely my easiest course. *With English there is always a million "right" answers, and writing an essay can go pretty much any way you want to.* I feel I have to manipulate my words in order to express what I'm trying to say, because even words are horribly ambiguous (just think of all the words that have more than one meaning). Meaning in writing is defined by the context, and you have to very carefully pick the words you want to use and put them in a context in which their meaning is clear. Whereas in math, to express the answer I think is right is very easy. There is a beauty and a simplicity in deriving an answer. And although there is only one right answer, there is still a creativity about how you get there. It is intensely satisfying to figure out how to do something a different way than the way it was taught to you.
> 
> As a side note, I'm probably switching into an engineering course next year .


So, you like math for one of the main reasons I find it boring, inflexible and irritating, and the thing that I like best about English is the thing that drives you nuts. I love things where there are no wrong answers, and there is total freedom to be as creative as possible. If there is a single correct answer, it isn't fun at all unless it has to do with moral philosophy. Coming up with a new way to say something is much more fun than trying to find an answer that already exists. Creating meaning is more fun than discovering it, at least for me. Interesting. Are we really _that_ different? Do you hate art and music, too, because they are about finding one of nearly infinite ways to express your feelings and ideas, or do you just have different reasons for liking them?


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## Alanna

snail said:


> Do you hate art and music, too, because they are about finding one of nearly infinite ways to express your feelings and ideas, or do you just have different reasons for liking them?


Actually, I kind of consider myself an artist. I think the reason I hate essays is because of all the words that get in the way, which screw up the idea I'm trying to get across. As with writing something or doing math, doing art in my mind is a way to express an idea, or "answer a question". And for me drawing has a logical progression, the same way math does.

And, if you think about it, art does use logical/mathematical methods. Think of perspective, and symmetrical and asymmetrical composition (and in music, rhythm and measure). These are all logical tools used to express an idea.

Hopefully that kind of made sense.


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## εmptε

Alanna said:


> I've always liked math because it has unbreakable rules. There is always a right answer, and never any ambiguity.


Einstein knew that all rules are meant to be broken. :crazy: I love math because it helps me break them, and its always expanding.


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## cryptonia

it's boring and inflexible in the answer, but extremely flexible in how you get there. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there were infinite ways to solve any given problem. "1 + 1" can be computed "1 + 2 - 1," "1 + 3 - 2," etc. I think much of the problem is that real math (the stuff sifr does) isn't even close to the same essence as what most people have learned.

The not-math that you'd learn in high school

x^3 + 2x^2 + 5x = 0 -- find x

this kind of thing revolves around doing a procedure. There may be many ways of solving such a problem, but the way you're taught in school, nearly everybody would do this the same way. Factor out the x, and say that x = 0 or the leftover quadratic = 0. Then follow another procedure to solve the quadratic.

More realistic or meaningful math

Taking a few examples from the third chapter of my math textbook last semester (the first "real" math course I think I've ever had. It doesn't really assume you know anything more than basic algebra. To avoid copyright violations, "mathematical thinking: problems-solving and proofs" by John P. D'Angelo and Douglas B. West)...

Prove that the sum and product of natural numbers are natural numbers.

Consider a set of 20 boxes, each ccontaining 20 balls. Suppose that every ball weighs one pound, except that the balls in one box are all one ounce too heavy or all one ounce too light. A precise scale is available that can weigh to the nearest ounce (not a balance scale). By selecting some balls to place ont he scale, explain how to determine in one weighing which is the defective box and whether its balls are too heavy or too light.

Determine the set of natural numbers _n_ such that every sum of _n_ consecutive natural numbers is divisible by _n_.


Problems like these require incredibly creative problem solving abilities, and there are hardly any mechanics at all. Most of them don't require anything but clever algebra and a lot of logic. There were other problems such as computing the probabilities of certain poker hands, and other stuff like that, as well, for which there is no set procedure at all. It's then that I felt like math got really cool and started enjoying it (bitch of a class tho that was, lol).


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## Shai Gar

Lykos said:


> Einstein knew that all rules are meant to be broken. :crazy: I love math because it helps me break them, and its always expanding.


actually einsteins quote was "An exception disproves the rule"


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## εmptε

Shai Gar said:


> actually einsteins quote was "An exception disproves the rule"


As I said on msn "Math is full of a lot of exceptions"


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## Nightriser

cryptonia said:


> *it's boring and inflexible in the answer, but extremely flexible in how you get there.* In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there were infinite ways to solve any given problem. "1 + 1" can be computed "1 + 2 - 1," "1 + 3 - 2," etc. I think much of the problem is that real math (the stuff sifr does) isn't even close to the same essence as what most people have learned.
> 
> The not-math that you'd learn in high school
> 
> x^3 + 2x^2 + 5x = 0 -- find x
> 
> *this kind of thing revolves around doing a procedure. There may be many ways of solving such a problem, but the way you're taught in school, nearly everybody would do this the same way.* Factor out the x, and say that x = 0 or the leftover quadratic = 0. Then follow another procedure to solve the quadratic.
> 
> More realistic or meaningful math
> 
> Taking a few examples from the third chapter of my math textbook last semester (the first "real" math course I think I've ever had. It doesn't really assume you know anything more than basic algebra. To avoid copyright violations, "mathematical thinking: problems-solving and proofs" by John P. D'Angelo and Douglas B. West)...
> 
> Prove that the sum and product of natural numbers are natural numbers.
> 
> Consider a set of 20 boxes, each ccontaining 20 balls. Suppose that every ball weighs one pound, except that the balls in one box are all one ounce too heavy or all one ounce too light. A precise scale is available that can weigh to the nearest ounce (not a balance scale). By selecting some balls to place ont he scale, explain how to determine in one weighing which is the defective box and whether its balls are too heavy or too light.
> 
> Determine the set of natural numbers _n_ such that every sum of _n_ consecutive natural numbers is divisible by _n_.
> 
> 
> *Problems like these require incredibly creative problem solving abilities, and there are hardly any mechanics at all. Most of them don't require anything but clever algebra and a lot of logic.* There were other problems such as computing the probabilities of certain poker hands, and other stuff like that, as well, for which there is no set procedure at all. It's then that I felt like math got really cool and started enjoying it (bitch of a class tho that was, lol).


You make me wish I could give multiple thanks for the same message. So here are some more: Thank you, thank you! 

The essence of the appeal for me is creative problem-solving. The patterns observed in mathematics can often underlie many different behaviors in the real world, so it turns out that, for instance, the forces of electric attraction and gravitational attraction are similar. Mathematical descriptions of bee dances and peer-to-peer networks help ease traffic on Internet servers. Furthermore, the occasional counter-intuitive result or strange object is a bonus. That gives it a little spice, a little surprise every now and then. Cantor showed that there are differing sizes of infinity (which also counts as an unconventional, creative proof). Mathematics can describe self-organizing behavior, like cellular automata. 

There is both an art and a science to math. I love both sides and try to balance the two, as well as see how math applies to just about everything else. I love it as much for the interconnections as for itself. Of course, the philosophical issues it raises are interesting, as well....

Anyway, I wasn't aware that extroverts were interested in math.


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> As I said on msn "Math is full of a lot of exceptions"


Bah, those pathological functions. What are you, a real analyst (ie, one who studies real analysis)?


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## εmptε

Sifr said:


> Bah, those pathological functions. What are you, a real analyst (ie, one who studies real analysis)?


I'm one who studies whatever I want to study. I find both sides equally interesting. I'm both Conceptualist & Experimentalist. You know what that makes me? It makes me FTW! I think I'd stick to making theories, but sometimes someones must be knocked down and stomped on. So I'm mainly a Conceptualist, but if I need to be I can be a experimentalist.


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> I'm one who studies whatever I want to study. I find both sides equally interesting. I'm both Conceptualist & Experimentalist. You know what that makes me? It makes me FTW! I think I'd stick to making theories, but sometimes someones must be knocked down and stomped on. So I'm mainly a Conceptualist, but if I need to be I can be a experimentalist.


No, I was messing with you. Real analysists had a way of being the rebellious, contrarian child of calculus for a while; a fair amount of real analysis was pointing out the functions that had "pathological behavior." 

More fun stuff: Russell's Paradox. That was one of my first projects in _real_ math. I love paradoxes!


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## cryptonia

sifr said:


> You make me wish I could give multiple thanks for the same message. So here are some more: Thank you, thank you!


That made my face split open with a grin :laughing:


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## Nightriser

cryptonia said:


> That made my face split open with a grin :laughing:


Yay! I made an INTP smile! :wink::tongue:


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## εmptε

Sifr said:


> No, I was messing with you. Real analysists had a way of being the rebellious, contrarian child of calculus for a while; a fair amount of real analysis was pointing out the functions that had "pathological behavior."
> 
> More fun stuff: Russell's Paradox. That was one of my first projects in _real_ math. I love paradoxes!


I understand you were messing with me. I just wanted to chime in some seriousness. I'm researching something I heard on Numb3rs the other day. (Maxwell's demon) It sounds very interesting to me.


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> I understand you were messing with me. I just wanted to chime in some seriousness. I'm researching something I heard on Numb3rs the other day. (Maxwell's demon) It sounds very interesting to me.


That's physics. Unless you're referring to the Second law of thermodynamics.


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## εmptε

Sifr said:


> That's physics. Unless you're referring to the Second law of thermodynamics.


=D I never said it wasn't! Who says this thread only has to be about math?


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> =D I never said it wasn't! Who says this thread only has to be about math?


Oh, you ENTP. :tongue:

I need to read more about the Second law of thermodynamics. I've been reading a bit about how it can also be interpreted in terms of information; simply substitute "information" for "energy." I've also heard of it being interpreted statistically, so that a spontaneous flow from disorder to order isn't so much impossible as it is improbable. 

Also, I almost figured out how to get around Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, but I forgot it. 

You know what? 
Programmable matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gaurav Khanna: Studying black holes properties using PlayStation 3
Quantum Computing Closer To Reality As Mathematicians Chase Key Breakthrough
What Came Before The Big Bang? Interpreting Asymmetry In Early Universe 
BBC NEWS | Health | People 'still willing to torture' (for reference, the Milgram experiment)
Emergent Leadership
Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your turn. :happy:


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## εmptε

Sorry, Night, I win this round.

Instead of posting one wikipedia link ... I will link to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> Sorry, Night, I win this round.
> 
> Instead of posting one wikipedia link ... I will link to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Psh, wikipedia doesn't contain all human knowledge. 

Wikipedia (including non-English pages) 

And for a lot of what Wikipedia misses:
Wolfram MathWorld: The Web's Most Extensive Mathematics Resource


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## cryptonia

^ why I love math (even when it's physicsy) ^


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## εmptε

Sifr said:


> Psh, wikipedia doesn't contain all human knowledge.
> 
> Wikipedia (including non-English pages)
> 
> And for a lot of what Wikipedia misses:
> Wolfram MathWorld: The Web's Most Extensive Mathematics Resource


Psh, Google


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## Nightriser

cryptonia said:


> ^ why I love math (even when it's physicsy) ^


I've seen that on a sweatshirt. I was enough of a nerd to compliment the man. *wince* 










And just for fun, Ulam's spiral! (slightly modified) 









Wow, I'm going nuts with this thread. :tongue:


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## Nightriser

Lykos said:


> Psh, Google


The universe:


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## εmptε

Damn you, the only thing that can beat that is Multiverse


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## Nightriser

I like how Euler's identity looks.


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## Schwarz

Bowiespoon: Integration is a calculus tool for finding the area beneath a curve or between two or more curves. Look it up on Wikipedia.

Nightriser: I do like Euler's identity.


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## Kishi

Lance said:


> I am just curious to see some answers of why math fascinates you. What goes through your head when you are trying to solve a problem?



I despise math with a firey, heartfelt passion. I can handle using math in other things... like chemistry and practical applications; but math class is like a _nightmare_ for me, and I'm still not done taking them :frustrating:

I prefer words. They make more logical sense to me... as weird as that may sound.


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## Gengbanghis Khan

BadWolf said:


> Really? I think math is somewhat boring. I mean I am good at it, but that doesn't mean I like it. I find science & history interesting, math is okay but its my best subject ... I hate the rules of language arts. It's probably because I've never had anyone teach me math the "fun" way I keep hearing about, I was always just talked too with no debating and no variation. I had the most fun with it when I taught myself.


Aye. I use math on a regular basis, and Im good at it, but I don't take comfort or enjoyment in doing it.


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## ABright

I despise math, mainly because I'm not very good at it.


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## rose

Seems like nts like/need math's absolute answers and logic and enjoy the internal challenge of it. I've known some very close people who truly enjoy math or applications, even compicated math applications, and it's fun for them!!!!! 

Maybe the calmness of doing things w/out messy emotions or uncertain variables is relaxing. A key reason? I don't know.

Math and I don't often get along well. 
i even took calculus..........i wonder if there's such a thing as math dyslexia because 
i probably have it. funny and true


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## Trope

rose said:


> i wonder if there's such a thing as math dyslexia because
> i probably have it. funny and true


Discalculia.

It's not entirely uncommon.


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## thewindlistens

I don't particularly like math, but it can be interesting. I like how sometimes you need to get your head entirely around a problem, to find where it's weakness lies, and use that to solve it.


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## Merov

I don't like math. | I use math almost every day.
:mellow:


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## Rainy

Is it just a personality thing? I'm an INFP and I love math, well, I love algebra. The patterns calm me down...
but I almost failed geometry. I never really got triangles, only circles!:tongue:


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## northernsky

I really love maths - especially the challenge of solving a problem and then realising how to solve it. I especially like solving patterns and algebra, and statistics. I fall down on Applied Maths - I hated all those questions about forces, angles across rivers given river currents, all the areas where maths and physics cross!


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## Nightriser

Rainy said:


> Is it just a personality thing? I'm an INFP and I love math, well, I love algebra. The patterns calm me down...
> but I almost failed geometry. I never really got triangles, only circles!:tongue:


Certainly not. There are two INFP math majors here at PC.


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## Jrquinlisk

Nightriser said:


> Certainly not. There are two INFP math majors here at PC.


You called?

It might be more of an N thing than an NT thing. I quite enjoy taking apart a formal system, examining how it all fits together, watching all the pieces fall together and build off each other. Algebra is especially entertaining with its simple yet elegant proofs.


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## Nightriser

Jrquinlisk said:


> You called?
> 
> It might be more of an N thing than an NT thing. I quite enjoy taking apart a formal system, examining how it all fits together, watching all the pieces fall together and build off each other. Algebra is especially entertaining with its simple yet elegant proofs.


=D 

Agreed. In fact, I read somewhere that math, at its roots, is an Intuiter's domain, not Thinker's. Sure, the Sensors can do the explicit calculations and such, but the actual ideas and objects of true math (way to go me, I almost sound like a snob!) can more readily comprehended by an Intuitive, whether of the Thinking or Feeling persuasion. There is no reason that a Feeler cannot follow the logical structure of math, or even enjoy it; Feeling does not indicate logical reasoning. What I have noticed, though, is that the NFs in math prefer to become teachers and professors, using their knowledge to help others. 

However, the number of those who enjoy math are still not common in either the NT or NF communities, as this thread has shown. (The method typically employed for teaching math is unfortunately designed by and for Sensors, I think. It explains why I thought math lackluster until I got to higher levels.) 

I enjoy algebras and discrete math. There was always something about discrete that made it seem like a succession of puzzles and games. At least, that's the impression I got from most of the chapters we covered. For most of the topics, you could probably think of a simple puzzle, like the Monty Hall problem or logic puzzles, which would correspond to the topic.


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## Charlie Chaotic

...I hate math...
it gives me a headache....


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## Naydra

Well, I score as an INTP (usually), and I hate math. I've never been good at it. I can only assume that this is due to my developed Se side. :}


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## Nightriser

Looks like Lance's assumption was incorrect. A little under half (8 out of 17) of responding NTs claimed to enjoy math in any sense. (thewindlistens I listed as not enjoying it, although he said that it can be interesting, and Wolf I counted as also uninterested, because his initial statement was that math is boring, though he later stated that higher-level math is enjoyable. Both are debatable. The rest seem to be a little clearer to discern.) That means that, in this sample and according to my way of counting, the majority do not care for it. In addition, at least four NFs stated that they did like math (interestingly, all INFPs). 
Therefore, it seems that appreciation of math is weakly correlated with the NT type, if at all. (Of course, the sample size was pretty small, and I could have forgotten a few respondents.)


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## Schwarz

Nightriser said:


> Looks like Lance's assumption was incorrect. A little under half (8 out of 17) of responding NTs claimed to enjoy math in any sense. (thewindlistens I listed as not enjoying it, although he said that it can be interesting, and Wolf I counted as also uninterested, because his initial statement was that math is boring, though he later stated that higher-level math is enjoyable. Both are debatable. The rest seem to be a little clearer to discern.) That means that, in this sample and according to my way of counting, the majority do not care for it. In addition, at least four NFs stated that they did like math (interestingly, all INFPs).
> Therefore, it seems that appreciation of math is weakly correlated with the NT type, if at all. (Of course, the sample size was pretty small, and I could have forgotten a few respondents.)


It seems like math is more strongly correlated with INxP types than with NTs, if this sample is any indication. Which is interesting. Maybe introverted space cadets like playing with patterns?


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## xackery

I don't like math.

I like programming!

Math is too abstract for me, it's all about formulas and rules in order to get to the objective. Yes, as an INTJ, I like things to make sense, but if you look abstractly at almost anything, you can make it sensible in your mind! Even poetry, literature, music, and other "sensory" arts. Which is why I tend to like everything!

Emotional people make sense, too, if you consider that whenever they are having an unpredictable moment you likely can assume there is some sort of emotional influence to it. Keeping your eyes alert and looking for the sensible parts usually result in you understanding even the most non-sensible people's actions or reactions.

I bet all this makes it sound like I'm putting down the complexity of people, huh? Sorry if you're offended XD


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## cryptonia

xackery said:


> Emotional people make sense, too, if you consider that whenever they are having an unpredictable moment you likely can assume there is some sort of emotional influence to it. Keeping your eyes alert and looking for the sensible parts usually result in you understanding even the most non-sensible people's actions or reactions.


hear, hear. Thinkers--especially sensing thinkers (less likely to sense other peoples' feelings at all): take note. Start to look at emotions and emotional distress as something tangible, and people start to make a lot more sense.


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## Andrea

it's "fun" if you know how to do it.
i was good at it, (because i was taking the easy classes), and there's nothing to doubt, so i got bored. i took an accelerated class at the same time, failed that out of lack of discipline.
i prefer English. i like to assume that everything the author does is deliberate, and analyze that. it allows more freedom of opinion. i just hate that i have to actually read it first.


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## Schwarz

andrea said:


> it's "fun" if you know how to do it.
> i was good at it, (because i was taking the easy classes), and there's nothing to doubt, so i got bored. i took an accelerated class at the same time, failed that out of lack of discipline.
> i prefer English. i like to assume that everything the author does is deliberate, and analyze that. it allows more freedom of opinion. i just hate that i have to actually read it first.


Math has nothing to doubt in it?


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## Andrea

i meant that when compared to English. with English, with any given problem, i can say X, another can say Y, and we each can back our conclusion "logically". math is more perfect, and i get bored. i guess because there's no intuition involved.


----------



## Schwarz

andrea said:


> i meant that when compared to English. with English, with any given problem, i can say X, another can say Y, and we each can back our conclusion "logically". math is more perfect, and i get bored. i guess because there's no intuition involved.


That kinda depends how far you go in math. Mathematics gets very intuition-heavy at the higher levels. Arithmetic and high school algebra were pretty dull and mostly mechanical as far as the problem solving went. Geometry was where I started liking math. It's more fun when you branch off on your own, too.
Not to say I don't like English as well. I started out as an English major before I stumbled into math in college.


----------



## Andrea

well i've only gotten as far as high school algebra.

i thought it might be more open-ended in the higher levels, but until recently i wasn't interested enough to go for it. but i signed up for pre-calc next year. we'll see how i like it. thanks!


----------



## Nightriser

Personally, I didn't care one way or another about math until I took discrete math. The problems are simple, puzzle-like, but very deep. Teachers do a disservice to mathematics by portraying it as something complete and final. I have been challenged by my prof to create original theorems and I have apparently come up with a novel proof for one theorem. There is plenty to be contributed to it, there always will be, and that is part of what attracts me to it. 

Anyway, wait till you get to the proof that there are multiple infinities (in fact, an infinite number of distinct infinities). Or the incompleteness theorems and how they were proven.


----------



## Schwarz

Nightriser said:


> Personally, I didn't care one way or another about math until I took discrete math. The problems are simple, puzzle-like, but very deep. Teachers do a disservice to mathematics by portraying it as something complete and final. I have been challenged by my prof to create original theorems and I have apparently come up with a novel proof for one theorem. There is plenty to be contributed to it, there always will be, and that is part of what attracts me to it.
> 
> Anyway, wait till you get to the proof that there are multiple infinities (in fact, an infinite number of distinct infinities). Or the incompleteness theorems and how they were proven.


Good times with Cantor and Godel...

Speaking of figuring out fun theorems, I realized yesterday that the diagonal of a unit hypercube of n dimensions is always sqrt. Which probably should have been obvious, but it made me happy.


----------



## Jrquinlisk

Nightriser said:


> Teachers do a disservice to mathematics by portraying it as something complete and final.... There is plenty to be contributed to it, there always will be, and that is part of what attracts me to it.


Thank you so much for this! I'm definitely going to have to remember this when I start teaching.


----------



## Nightriser

Jrquinlisk said:


> Thank you so much for this! I'm definitely going to have to remember this when I start teaching.


Certainly! I just remember disliking classical mechanics because it seemed so dead and static. Final. Complete. No new ideas or theories to be found there, everything is pretty well covered (if I am wrong crypt, please correct me). If I continued seeing math in that light, I probably would have ignored it. Who knows.


----------



## cryptonia

Well, I've only taken the intro level mechanics class (my real "serious" one with differential equations and stuff comes next fall), but there are a few things I've got to look forward to next fall that sound like they could be added to, when the systems get big enough. The most probable spin configuration on the atoms of a magnet at varying temperatures, for instance, are found (or at least we were told that they were found--we get lied to _all the time_ in physics, then get told that the previous teacher was lying a few years later) by doing something with Markov Chains on a really fast computer over and over and over again. They supposedly converge towards the real configuration, as time goes on, but with no guarantee on how long it will take, so you're basically guessing. So if you count finding better algorithms for things like that, then I think there's some to be contributed--but it's mostly finding faster algorithms (computer science) or finding different ways to get the answers in reasonable amounts of time (more of a math thing) than it does with physics.

I'll know a lot more given another year, 'cause I'm taking two semesters of E&M, and one of thermodynamics and one of physical mechanics, but I'm betting that they probably lie and make everything sound just as simple in early physics courses as they do in early math ones.


Jrquinlisk, if you're going to be a teacher, then I may as well let you know too--I always thought teachers did a disservice to math (after I had a real math course, that is) by turning it into plugging numbers into formulae and drilling people with problems until they could do them well enough. I never knew that it had a lot more to do with creating definitions and then using those definitions and other properties to find relationships between them than it did anything else. When I was in middle school people always asked me if I wanted to be a mathematician, but I always told them "I don't mind using math, but I really would hate to do that sort of thing all the time," because it was extremely repetitive and didn't seem to have anything "behind" it, unless you nailed the equations they would drill you on down to physical situations (hence the physics major now). I didn't know that it required any clever problem solving or use of definitions and logic until like.... this past fall, when I took a more rigorous one for the first time. It would have been a lot more interesting earlier if I weren't just getting drilled on whether I could follow the rules or not, though.


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## matilda

Maybe it just _feels_ natural?


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## Kevinaswell

I fucking hate math. I think it's retarded crazy boring and tedious. It's like the grunt jobs of intellectual employment, I feel like. 

The only reason it's great is because it's so logical and undeniable. It's a very useful/universal/straightforward/indisputable system, so it's quite the tool.


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## Psilo

Not NT but, I enjoy math like a good logic puzzle, but I'm not very proficient nor would I want to get very in depth. My problem is I really don't see the connection between mathematics and reality easily and cannot do math until that clicks. That caused me great difficulty in school where my teachers were just concerned about teaching the steps than the idea.


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## Kevinaswell

Psilo said:


> Not NT but, I enjoy math like a good logic puzzle, but I'm not very proficient nor would I want to get very in depth. My problem is I really don't see the connection between mathematics and reality easily and cannot do math until that clicks. That caused me great difficulty in school where my teachers were just concerned about teaching the steps than the idea.


I know _exactly_ what you mean.


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## starri

I like maths for personal reasons.


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## Raynekatt

I've never really liked math and it has always been one of my least favorite subjects, though I have always been good at it.

I dislike lower math (the simple equations and what not) because they feel repeative and basic, like no thought is required. Instead I have always enjoyed the more complicated formulas and problems...they feel more like cause and effect and have lovely simplicity behind them that feels like echoed pattens of a greater scale.

But most day to day math I use is basic and I hate it.


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## Perseus

I never got on with maths. But I am more NP.


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## NewSoul

Well, I'm not an NT, but I really enjoy math. It's something I'm good at and I understand it. I find algebra sort of "fun" to a degree.


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## Schwarz

Kevinaswell said:


> I fucking hate math. I think it's retarded crazy boring and tedious. It's like the grunt jobs of intellectual employment, I feel like.
> 
> The only reason it's great is because it's so logical and undeniable. It's a very useful/universal/straightforward/indisputable system, so it's quite the tool.


It's more interesting if instead of just learning the mechanical stuff you try to figure out why the mechanical stuff works the way it does. And once you get into the "why" instead of the "how", all these philosophical questions start popping up.


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## InvisibleJim

*Maths Maths Maths*

Maths is easy. But its just another language to learn and once you do its simplicity ad usefulness make it a charm. I work with it very day to help understand systems and optimize them. Theres nothing more satisfying than analyzing all of the constraints on a system and finding the optimum.


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## Windette

It's so pure and logical. There's only one, truthful answer.


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## Sachetan

I simply love the challenge. The more difficult the better. And when I excel myself I feel great :laughing:


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## TheDOtster

I like the challenge and how math is straight forward. It's logical and fun to figure out. I just get some kind of weird satisfaction out of completing a long problem that took a decent amount of effort :tongue:


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## skycloud86

I don't actually have much interest in maths. I failed my GCSE Maths test twice (GCSEs are the English and Welsh version of exams at the end of high school), and I've never been much of a mathematical person - my favourite subjects in high school were English and History


----------



## Even

I _despise _math. Simply because it becomes so _old_, or at least, the math in my life does. Heh. Most of my hate for it stems directly from school. After I learn something I'm ready to move onto another topic/area of interest, or at least build onto what I've learned to reach _something_. So, each year of being forced to review and basically work the same problem in repetitive sessions is just...ugh.


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## noexcuses

I'm not so good at the process, but I'll be damned if it doesn't explain nearly everything


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## Deagalman

I like to analyze systems and find loopholes. It's only natural that I would like math. And the aha when something is uncovered. I can't wait until Geometry and Trigonometry. I bombed my math placement test and I'm happy about it. At my age, it's nice to be fortunate enough to go back to school and learn from the foundation. It's been way too long.


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## Deagalman

Even said:


> I _despise _math. Simply because it becomes so _old_, or at least, the math in my life does. Heh. Most of my hate for it stems directly from school. After I learn something I'm ready to move onto another topic/area of interest, or at least build onto what I've learned to reach _something_. So, each year of being forced to review and basically work the same problem in repetitive sessions is just...ugh.


Thing is, you forget. You will get to college and everything will be a review. I don't have that anymore since I haven't been going to school in such a long amount of time. I remember feeling intelligent right out of high school because it was all fresh in my mind. Now I really have to study hard and all the 18 year old kids are showing me what to do which I don't mind at all. It's great to have young fresh minds teach me what they know so well. Repetition works wonders.


----------



## totefee

Math is okay, but science and history are my favorite subjects.


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## Sunless

I hate doing math. I always flunked math at school, never really understood it.

I like to put my T to other things.


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## SinnersPride

Hmmm. I see a difference between logic, which is what I would consider the base of mathematics, and the equations. I would expect INXJ's to be best at math, as they are likely more able to have the patience and... straightforwardness? (I'm not sure what I'm looking for here...) to learn, memorize and apply the equations, while INXP's would be more interested in (and better at) linguistic logic that has more to do with the logical process and less to do with numbers (ick, lol)

As an XNTP I have always loved word problems and the logical loopholes within linguistics, even though I am terrible with numbers and equations.


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## pluto

I hate math. I think this is just another one of those stereotypes that are stuck onto certain types. When is everyone going to step outside of these boxes and stop thinking that all people of a certain type are the same? That in itself is not logical. There may be more NTs that like it, but certainly not all. I personally find math to be such an absolute boring way to use T. As some posters have already stated, I much prefer linguistics.


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## orthopod

Linguistics is soo inconsistent - now inventing a logical llanguage, or at least thinking up the idea (like esperanto), and letting one of the drudge type personalities work out the details


----------



## Kohtumine

Nightriser said:


> Also, I almost figured out how to get around Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, but I forgot it.


Lol WHAT?!

I don't believe you. How can you forget something like that?

Bah, anyway I don't think is possible, so you must have been wrong anyway :tongue:

Or maybe that was a joke? And I didn't get it? Bleh:sad:


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## Verdant Hollow

orthopod said:


> Linguistics is soo inconsistent - now inventing a logical llanguage, or at least thinking up the idea (like esperanto), and letting one of the drudge type personalities work out the details


You should take a course on computational linguistics then. Not inconsistent, just really complex and organic, but still logical. I've taken some grad courses on logical semantics, simply fascinating. You have to have a solid background in logic and a bit of linguistic theory though.

I know NTs who dislike and are bad at math, they are rare though.

Just like art, acting, sports, etc. appeals to some people, so does math to most rationals. Maybe it's because it jives with their thought processes, but I'm not so certain.

Someone might say that the appeal of math it what makes them rational NTs, I'd disagree though.


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## Nightriser

Tlatoani said:


> Lol WHAT?!
> 
> I don't believe you. How can you forget something like that?
> 
> Bah, anyway I don't think is possible, so you must have been wrong anyway :tongue:
> 
> Or maybe that was a joke? And I didn't get it? Bleh:sad:


Both, actually, I really did think something up, I really did forget it, and it was also partly a reference to a joke somewhere (xkcdb, I think). You're probably right, what I thought of probably was incorrect.


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## aranae

ugh, I don't like math at all. you have to be totally exact with everything or it all ends up wrong. basic fractions and %'s are useful to know- beyond that I don't have any interest.


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## RipenessIsAll

I must say, I'm good at math, haven taken two years of college calculus and getting an A. But I much prefer chemical interactions and biological fuctions to pure theoretical math. I like applying it to other things.

Figuring out why certain behaviors cause such bio functions is what I LOVE to do tho. 

So not all NT worship at the feet of Sir Isaac Newton.


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## mrmatt

i think some of it is very interesting, and i think that statistics is interesting in some ways. i like to use math to calculate probabilities of events happening or other things like that. i also enjoy geometric stuff, i never liked algebra


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## fractaloverlap

I'm taking calculus. Not because I enjoy it, but because the theory is useful for other things - physics and CS.

I suppose part of the beauty of maths is that it underlies every other science....


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## LeelooDallas

- patterns are fun
- it's reassuring that the seemingly chaotic natures ofsome aspects of the universe are easily explained and contained in elegant and neat equations
- numbers are objective


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## Deagalman

I need math to be an architect. I'm also into the beauty and purity of it. And phi haunts me. It's also very symbolic so I think the inner hidden meanings are fascinating.


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## fractaloverlap

Deagalman said:


> I need math to be an architect. I'm also into the beauty and purity of it. And phi haunts me. It's also very symbolic so I think the inner hidden meanings are fascinating.


Did you ever see the movie "Pi"? Very eerie. 

And primes are fascinating too. The way a pattern seems be just out of reach behind the numbers.


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## entperson

I always enjoyed Trig, especially trigonomic identities, they were pointless but fun. Algebra I wasn't too fond of.


Couldn't really explain why I enjoy it, I just do.


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## entpreter

I don't, I hate math. Oddly, I got a higher score on math on the GRE test than verbal.


----------



## Singularity

1. There is a correct answer.
2. You can take something in real life, turn it into data, analyze it, make a symbolic picture of the exact aspect of it you are trying to understand, manipulate the data to imagine how the thing in real life would be different if certain variable were changed which feels like predicting potential futures....I could go on.
3. Accounting is the language of business - if I see the books I can understand a lot about a company.


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## Espiculeas

Math is fun because it is one the the few things in school of which you dont need to study, if you do it, learn why you put certain variables in certain places, understand how to manipulate them, you are set. It sucks because you must constantly do the problems over and over again until something that was once so fun, is now boring.


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## Harley

AhmenRah said:


> Math is fun because it is *one the the few things in school of which you dont need to study*, if you do it, learn why you put certain variables in certain places, understand how to manipulate them, you are set. It sucks because you must constantly do the problems over and over again until something that was once so fun, is now boring.


HA HA HA!!!
Oh, I wish I had an ounce of the mathematical talent you have.


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## Espiculeas

If you got a calc, something to take notes on, and have paid attention/understand the concept you can do it to.


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## Ben

I don't like it, but I don't hate it, either. However, if you take away my calculator I'll be one unhappy camper.


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## Espiculeas

Ben said:


> However, if you take away my calculator I'll be one unhappy camper.


I can work without it, however my problems are usually faulted due to me not wanting to take the time and work a problem out


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## Arion

I don't like math. Useful, yes... fascinating, hardly.

Science and History are more like it.

I like Language Arts solely for the creative writing. The grammar is boring though _my _grammar is quite good.


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## Espiculeas

I got lucky with my LA teacher, she understands that LA should be about actual writing, not just following assignments which mean nothing!


----------



## Map of your Head

I do love math, although I'm easily stressed by sums that require a lot of brain.

What I love about math is it's underlying philosophy which is most clear when it is kept simple. You could say that numbers are a symbolic buildingstone of everything around us. You even find it back in our personalities. What fascinates me about it is not how it shows us useless facts we already know, but how research may lead to new discoveries.


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## Perseus

Too much £sd when I was a child


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## Nightriser

I'm debating whether to make this a separate topic, so as to increase visibility, but this article, while verbose, expresses very similar ideas to mine on the matter of math education. It immediately answers, indiscriminately, without regard to any particular personality type, why _anyone_ would like math. 
http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf


----------



## Harley

Nightriser said:


> I'm debating whether to make this a separate topic, so as to increase visibility, but this article, while verbose, expresses very similar ideas to mine on the matter of math education. It immediately answers, indiscriminately, without regard to any particular personality type, why _anyone_ would like math.
> http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf


Yea, I read this before and a lot of it reasonated with me. I wished that when I was taking math, courses would offer more context in terms of historical terms and other factors. I always loved reading the little bios about mathmeticians in the textbooks, and I felt that understanding the mathmetician would enable a person to better understand the mathematical equations and proofs. Like to understand Pollock's work you've got to understand him, and what his methods were and what they meant to him as an artist, so you could see beyong the splashes of paint.
And also this whole idea that math is valued only because of its practicality. More people should just appreciate it for what it is, like loving art for the sake of art. By adding this "practical" tag to it, you immedeatly lower its fun factor, because nobody enjoys things because they're practical. Very few people would say they like literature, art, music, designing, history, cuisine, fashion etc. because its "practical". Most people enjoy those things because they are considered subjects and hobbies in of themselves.


----------



## Nightriser

Harley said:


> Yea, I read this before and a lot of it reasonated with me. I wished that when I was taking math, courses would offer more context in terms of historical terms and other factors. I always loved reading the little bios about mathmeticians in the textbooks, and I felt that understanding the mathmetician would enable a person to better understand the mathematical equations and proofs. Like to understand Pollock's work you've got to understand him, and what his methods were and what they meant to him as an artist, so you could see beyong the splashes of paint.


True. In understanding the personalities behind it, the movements and approaches they had to math, it became clear to me that math is not merely about logic and rigor, but also about intuition. Newton had fairly convincing arguments in favor of calculus, but it was still based on less than rigorous foundations. Only in the 18th and 19th centuries did mathematicians decide that the foundations need more examination, giving rise to real analysis and topology. 

Also, knowing about the mathematician's interests can provide insight into their thoughts. Some theorems are given multiple proofs, but from different angles. Knowing the mathematician shows you a little bit about where they get their ideas from. Recently, Grigori Perelman proved a tricky conjecture, known as Poincare's conjecture. It was only when I read about his past work that I understand where his idea for the proof came from (mind you, I claim to understand neither the conjecture nor the proof). 



> And also this whole idea that math is valued only because of its practicality. More people should just appreciate it for what it is, like loving art for the sake of art. By adding this "practical" tag to it, you immedeatly lower its fun factor, because nobody enjoys things because they're practical. Very few people would say they like literature, art, music, designing, history, cuisine, fashion etc. because its "practical". Most people enjoy those things because they are considered subjects and hobbies in of themselves.


Agreed. For a while, I tried to beat the practicality drum, but eventually couldn't ignore the truth any longer; no, most people are never going to use calculus in real life. Most won't use set theory or even geometry. Sure, these will be useful if one is a mathematician, physicist, engineer, or something similar, but for most, it won't be useful. Anyway, I never took it up for its practicality (indeed, I only rarely take anything up for practical purposes). I took it up because I loved the problem-solving. Discrete math problems often read like the puzzles I loved as a child. 

Still, I think I could still make an argument for retaining math classes, though certainly not in the current form. Math still requires certain skills, particularly analytical thought and creative problem-solving, which are certainly desirable skills in "real life." If the teacher is skilled enough and the students are receptive, they can attempt to learn those skills through mathematics. This is what one prof attempted to achieve with a "problem-solving seminar" and another with teaching arithmetic of infinities (heh, try applying that to real life! :tongue. The problem is that current teaching methods do not encourage this. The current teaching methods encourage passive reception.


----------



## InvisibleJim

I'll quote my favourite part of the treatise 'Mathematics is the music of reason. To do mathematics is to engage in an act of discovery and conjecture, intuition and inspiration'


----------



## Schwarz

Nightriser said:


> I'm debating whether to make this a separate topic, so as to increase visibility, but this article, while verbose, expresses very similar ideas to mine on the matter of math education. It immediately answers, indiscriminately, without regard to any particular personality type, why _anyone_ would like math.
> http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf


That article makes me glad that my mom showed me all this subversive math stuff so that I didn't think math was exclusively what they taught in school. Now, to incorporate the ideas into my SI sessions somehow...


----------



## EvanR

Nightriser said:


> There was a brief video somewhere about Benjamin Arthur and his ideas on math education, which I agreed with. Instead of teaching precalculus and beginning calculus in high school as part of the main math track, go with statistics. Statistics is a tricky subject, but is increasing tremendously in practical value. With information of all sorts becoming readily available to common citizens through the Internet, TV, radio, and newspapers, statistics are being streamed all the time to people, but without proper understanding of statistics (and the psychological implications of how statistics are stated), this information is all too easy to misconstrue.
> 
> I think that precalculus and beginning calc should still be offered, but not pushed as the main current. Many people still do not attend college, do not go into the particular careers you mentioned, and thus, calculus is not particularly relevant to such jobs. However, I think that understanding of probability and statistics should become something that, like literacy, is a basic skill for most people.
> 
> I'd like to add that differential equations are used in many fields. One of my friends did a senior project on modeling HIV spreading through a person's body. DEs are not _necessary_ for doing medicine, to my knowledge, but it can certainly be useful. They can be used to create simple models for practically any physical system or process. In social science, I've seen a problem about modeling the number of "nonconformists" that arise in a society (sociology? anthropology?).
> 
> Ed.: I rather liked Hardy's quote: "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas, like the colours or the words must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in this world for ugly mathematics."


I agree with you. A solid understanding of statistics and probability is as important as literacy.


----------



## NastyCat

The highschools in Australia teach statistics before calculus. In senior stage mathematics subjects, you have the option of doing the basic stuff which has a huge focus on statistics or the more advanced stuff which focuses a lot on calculus.

We've also got basic probability being taught from the grade 7 onwards with the more advanced probability being taught alongside with the harder calculus in advanced maths.

I guess it really down to which country or state as they have different education curriculums...

On a different note, high school education is often created in a way to inspire students. Calculus has many different applications which are much more diverse than statistics. Although statistics can be applied across more fields and more often in everyday life, it only serves one main purpose: to prove or show something based on set of values or data. This doesn't really wow young students and will be a lot more difficult for them to maintain an interest in the subject.

Although statistics is becoming more and more common due to greater accessibility, most articles published for the general public will only utilise basic statistics which is already taught in most high school curriculums (high school: as in grade 7 onwards as used in Australia). Those kinds of articles also explain the significance or importance of such data as well as the impacts.

To fully understand the hardcore articles which are not published for the general public, people must have studied the appropriate courses or subjects in tertiary education. Even with an advanced understanding of statistics from high school, people will not easily understand the reasons as to why such research has been carried out and the importance of it. This means that unless a high school student wants to move into tertiary education, learning advanced statistics will be done so for no reason.

The approach to answering statistical questions is *generally repetitive even in exams.* You could say the same about calculus, but calculus is more easily mixed up and will require students to think about different approaches in exams. Teachers do not want students to develop a one track mind in answering questions and place huge emphasis on being flexible.

Another important factor is that calculus is used in or related to other high school subjects (I'm looking mainly at science). Physics is an obvious example, as well as chemistry (radioactive decay) and biology (microbiology...growth and decay of populations). This ties in a broader understanding of such subjects, and statistics doesn't really achieve this. This tie in factor is also creates or attempts to create a greater interest in mathematics due to its wide range of uses.

One of the main points of senior studies in high school is to generate an interest subjects allowing students to plan out their future tertiary education studies. For mathematics, calculus achieves this greater than what statistics can do. Statistics is boring, and I'm sure most of us can agree to that.

So, no, I disagree with statistics being the main focus of maths in highschool. I would not do maths if I were to be so bored by it.


----------



## EvanR

NastyCat said:


> The highschools in Australia teach statistics before calculus. In senior stage mathematics subjects, you have the option of doing the basic stuff which has a huge focus on statistics or the more advanced stuff which focuses a lot on calculus.
> 
> We've also got basic probability being taught from the grade 7 onwards with the more advanced probability being taught alongside with the harder calculus in advanced maths.
> 
> I guess it really down to which country or state as they have different education curriculums...
> 
> On a different note, high school education is often created in a way to inspire students. Calculus has many different applications which are much more diverse than statistics. Although statistics can be applied across more fields and more often in everyday life, it only serves one main purpose: to prove or show something based on set of values or data. This doesn't really wow young students and will be a lot more difficult for them to maintain an interest in the subject.
> 
> Although statistics is becoming more and more common due to greater accessibility, most articles published for the general public will only utilise basic statistics which is already taught in most high school curriculums (high school: as in grade 7 onwards as used in Australia). Those kinds of articles also explain the significance or importance of such data as well as the impacts.
> 
> To fully understand the hardcore articles which are not published for the general public, people must have studied the appropriate courses or subjects in tertiary education. Even with an advanced understanding of statistics from high school, people will not easily understand the reasons as to why such research has been carried out and the importance of it. This means that unless a high school student wants to move into tertiary education, learning advanced statistics will be done so for no reason.
> 
> The approach to answering statistical questions is *generally repetitive even in exams.* You could say the same about calculus, but calculus is more easily mixed up and will require students to think about different approaches in exams. Teachers do not want students to develop a one track mind in answering questions and place huge emphasis on being flexible.
> 
> Another important factor is that calculus is used in or related to other high school subjects (I'm looking mainly at science). Physics is an obvious example, as well as chemistry (radioactive decay) and biology (microbiology...growth and decay of populations). This ties in a broader understanding of such subjects, and statistics doesn't really achieve this. This tie in factor is also creates or attempts to create a greater interest in mathematics due to its wide range of uses.
> 
> One of the main points of senior studies in high school is to generate an interest subjects allowing students to plan out their future tertiary education studies. For mathematics, calculus achieves this greater than what statistics can do. Statistics is boring, and I'm sure most of us can agree to that.
> 
> So, no, I disagree with statistics being the main focus of maths in highschool. I would not do maths if I were to be so bored by it.


Statistics is an integral part of biology, chemistry and physics. I am surprised that you say it is less interesting than Calculus. My gut feeling would have been the opposite. I find both statistics and mathematics to be fantastically interesting, but that is just me. I would need to see some evidence to be convinced that on average people find statistics to be less interesting than calculus. Incidentally I am pretty sure that most people find both statistics and mathematics to be boring.


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## danicx




----------



## Nightriser

oneoutside said:


>


Philosophers: Yeah, you're welcome for that logic thing, you mathematical ingrates! :tongue:


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## The Psychonaut

i dont really like math...in fact you could accurately say that i DISlike math.

LOGIC FTW!


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## SilverScorpio17

oneoutside said:


>


Is chemistry really "applied physics?" I didn't think of it that way.

Anyway, I don't really like doing math. I'm in AP Calculus BC, and I don't know if the problem is my teacher, or the pace. Or maybe I just suck at math. I actually love the different things you can do with math, but I'm not going to be an engineer, so I lose some interest because I don't know what I'd do with some of the higher level math skills.


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## danicx

SilverScorpio17 said:


> [...] I don't really like doing math. I'm in AP Calculus BC, and I don't know if the problem is my teacher, or the pace. Or maybe I just suck at math. I actually love the different things you can do with math, but I'm not going to be an engineer, so I lose some interest because I don't know what I'd do with some of the higher level math skills.


AP Calculus BC? I don't know what BC means, is it highschool though? I didn't enjoy math much in highschool. I find it only becomes interesting at higher levels where it's no longer about random numbers; you start to think about how it acts in real life.


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## SilverScorpio17

oneoutside said:


> AP Calculus BC? I don't know what BC means, is it highschool though? I didn't enjoy math much in highschool. I find it only becomes interesting at higher levels where it's no longer about random numbers; you start to think about how it acts in real life.


Yeah, it's in high school. But it's supposed to be the second semester of college calculus. I'm starting to see ways it can be applied to real life, but it's still not much. I can see differential equations being applied to a lot of things though, especially in biology (what I want to major in). Even though it's a college level class, it's still taught by high school teachers so I guess that makes a difference.


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## Science Officer

Math...math is like a code, a foregin language. A code that contains an untold welth of knowlage. I must know those secrets. I must. If i can learn to speak this language, I will have acces to all these secrets of the Intelectuals. An equation is a code to be cracked, a problem to be solved.


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## Lucem

I don't deify maths like some people.
But maths does have it's uses.


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## aluink

Nightriser said:


> The universe:


Psht...the 10 dimensions "Imagining the Tenth Dimension" on YouTube. (Sorry, can't post a link since I'm so new on this forum)


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## aluink

oneoutside said:


> AP Calculus BC? I don't know what BC means, is it highschool though? I didn't enjoy math much in highschool. I find it only becomes interesting at higher levels where it's no longer about random numbers; you start to think about how it acts in real life.



Sure real life is important to me...somewhat...but I also start to like UD math cause that's where it starts to get so abstract you lose sight of the real world. math is probably the area where my N comes out the most. Category Theory is probably the highest level of abstract math you can get (I'd love to learn about more abstract theory . And CT is just super fascinating to me. 

So in response to your post, for me, math is cool when it starts to diverge from the real world and you're not dealing with the details of it. "You lost a '-' somewhere in your problem? What the hell is a '-'?" :crazy:


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## Nightriser

Nightriser said:


> Haha!
> 
> Or Hilbert spaces, which are infinite-dimensional. I believe the current theory is that only 10 dimensions are possible in the multiverse. (?)
> 
> I win. :happy:
> 
> For more fun, here's an enneract, or 9-cube:





aluink said:


> Psht...the 10 dimensions "Imagining the Tenth Dimension" on YouTube. (Sorry, can't post a link since I'm so new on this forum)


Look above (specifically where I mentioned the same ten dimensions and Hilbert space, which can be generalized to an infinite number of dimensions). I still win.


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## VenusMisty

Whether or not I like math goes in phases, but generally it's getting the right answer. I really like randomness and probability, and hypothesis testing is interesting. But I got bored in the Stats class I took, so that was kinda weird. Oh, and Trig. I love trig, too.


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## VenusMisty

That enneract is very cool btw.


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## Munchies

I like it because i can do it


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## fiasco

Munchies said:


> I like it because i can do it


Nice :crazy:


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## NotSoRighteousRob

well all my reasons have been given so far. For me math was never an issue, I found it easy, and the fact that it was logical made it all the more appealing. Meanwhile you have subjects like English which are constantly in flux, and don't hardly apply to society anymore, history, which when you get right down to it can easily be manipulated and isn't as accurate as your normally told. Don't even get me started on art, I see no useful point to it. But of course mathematicians are going the way of the dinosaur thanks to computers. Only pure mathematicians who create new forms of math will be needed soon.


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## JustMeAgain

I'm not a huge fan of math, i have to be interested to actually care enough to work out a problem. It just bores me. :wink:


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## Mr. Limpopo

I like how it has a clear right/wrong; I don't like 'mushy' subjects like literature (at least if I have to take a class. If it's just for fun, i'd love to write a story.)


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## Mr. Limpopo

DayLightSun said:


> Logical management. Like how to get someone to do something by convincing them with logic. I do it all the time works like a charm.


Which fantasy world do you live in where everyone can be convinced by logic? lol


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## Promethea

Math has never seemed interesting to me.


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## ImminentThunder

Mathematics is an art - the art of problem solving. Furthermore, it is a basis for science as it explains how the laws of the universe are governed. It is a tool to better understand the world around us logically.

Wow that sounded nerdy haha. And from what I've seen in this thread as well as the people I know personally, not _all_ NTs love math. Even the ones that don't, though, seem to be pretty good at it.


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## MiGoreng

I love solving problems, but only if I can convince myself it's productive. I can't sit around with a magazine and solve all the little number problems at the back unless they're relatively quick to do, because even though they suck me in and I get pleasure out of finishing them, I look back on the time I spent working on them and realize I could have been doing something more worthwhile.

I loved math in school, and I was good at it - the best in my class when I applied myself. But I have an awful memory, so memorizing and retaining mathematical formulas is difficult. I've forgotten what half the symbols mean and what processes I'm supposed to take to get to x. I could still do the work, but it would take me longer than it would people with high school math still in their heads. 

However, I believe I would still really enjoy the process of working it all out again.


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## nonnaci

There's a sort of elegance in mathematics that resembles beauty. Its like seeing a large mosaic of works and knowing how and why each constituent belongs to the whole. Another reason is its humility as a language that offers internal consistency while acknowledging its boundaries/limitations. The third reason being how its the origin of most sciences and its many practical uses.


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## wiarumas

I like some types of math. I like simple, clear cut math - algebra, geometry, statistics, and a bit of discrete math.

On the other hand, I hate trigonometry with a passion.


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## steffigoesrawr

I never thought I liked math (I've always succeeded in it, but never really enjoyed it) until I helped one of my dormmates with her algebra problem and became completely engrossed in the equation and realized that I actually missed mathematics. For me, it's the opportunity to problem-solve. Math has one answer and that's all good and well, but the fun for me is in the different ways to approach the problem. Actually finding the answer is boring in comparison the HOW I find it, which seems in contrast to the J's (this is a vague statement regarding previous posts and not a statement about the types in general) who have posted about loving their answers and the E's (again, vague) who seem to not enjoy this process without purpose, where I enjoy just sitting down and fiddling with problems for the sake of fiddling with problems. I am curious if other INTPs do something similar, because I am the only person I've met (yet) who things this way.


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## Wodashin

I personally don't see elegance in math. I don't see the inherent beauty of math (aside from fractal geometry, which any type would find beautiful). I see math as a tool.

I'm a physics guy, so I find _applied_ math to be nice to think about. Theoretical and futurist ideas are my cup of tea, and math comes with the territory. Though, it's applied math. Applied math is much more interesting. I don't like the abstractness of pure math (even if my interests in physics are of the most abstract caliber for the field).

Math itself I find boring. First finding out about the awesomeness that is e^x is cool and all, and the "golden ratio" and the like is nice, but those things never had staying power for me. I like what you can do with math, but not math itself.


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## quadrivium

I actually hate math. It was my worst subject throughout school. There is some mental block and it gives me anxiety. I think I might have discalculia though. I'm always reversing numbers. 
I was terrible at geometry AND algebra. Never quite grasped statistics. I loved Logic though. Always aced logic. I do have an enhanced understanding of music theory, which has a mathematical base to it.

Interestingly enough, when I first started college, I took the placement test and flunked it. Took Beginning Algebra for a semester and failed that too. Took the placement test again and scored in the 93rd percentile in the state.


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## IamInnocent

I love math! Primary source of getting pure accurate answers, it never lies. And it's the most theorical way to get hidden answers. Even though I kinda hate drawing those geometrical shapes. =/


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## Einsteinette

I Love Math, Pure mathematics to be more accurate. I love the logic behind it and the use of abstract thinking. it's hard to explain but whenever i'm reading a Mathematical demonstration i find my self smiling for no reason. Math makes me happy , It's beautiful


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## AJ2011

Math is like another language for me. It allows me to express concepts that would take ages to express in normal English.

I like how math is able to boil down concepts into a few symbols, which if you (1) manipulate, (2) re-express them, and (3) intelligently apply them to a physical concept, you end up creating something physically new, i.e., new technology. Its range of expression is wide and applications limitless.

You could use math to explore vast tracts of conceptual space. Then come out of it with an idea of how to implement something innovative. Creation is a process that seems to give energy.


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## ALNF1031

I don't like it, I apparently just happen to be quite proficient in it.


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## Muser

Don't like it, don't care for it, am not good at it.
I do enjoy grammar, syntax and punctuation though.


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## Praesepe

I am an NT and don't particularly care for math. I even make the simplest mistakes in rudimentary algebra. I am not going like a subject that I am not good at.


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## Belrose

Math is an okay subject, although it's also my achilles heel. I prefer studying other things instead and search for the truth in them. Math is honest, but the quest for actual facts in other areas can also be great.


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## Dimensional Transition

Fuck math.

I've always hated doing it. It's cool that there are people who enjoy math, I mean, we need that. There wouldn't be computers without math.

But fuck math, man. I suck at it.


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## SPtheGhost

because..apparently..you can build universes on top of it


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## iinnffpp

math only has one answer. some people like that. certainty and logic comfort them. some people don't like that. they like ambiguity and multiple answers. i wish i were the former, but i am the latter. ugh!


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## Polo

I don't like math, but there are things here and there within math that are mind blowing. Whenever I've had to study fractals for math classes, I am always reminded how intense they are. They're just mind blowing. Also, the fact that math is in everything. When you really start thinking about it... WHOA


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## mr neurotic

It was so boring in elementary school. Huge sheets of routine calculations  :dry:. I basically sucked at it because I made lots of simple errors due to a boring routine. 

In university level it was much more interesting. No more HC routine. Solving stuff gives me some sort of adrenaline rush. 

Later I developed taste for programming but I only use Python (programming language) and I'm not into low level stuff. It seems so detailed (and dull + work) compared to elegance of Python.


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## azdahak

AbioticPrime said:


> I'd argue that mathematics is a form of art.
> 
> Math is nothing more than a set of methods used to organize and extrapolate abstract truth. The beauty can be appreciated in the forms and structures of organization. I'd argue that some are born naturally gifted with an affinity for realizing and creating such frameworks.
> 
> The descendants of this mystical line of logical virtuosos we call "NT"s.
> 
> It's what we do. Why are FPs called artists?



I did my Ph.D. in mathematics. I've always felt this way. I call math "mind poetry" because you have to develop your logical sense organ to appreciate its inherent aesthetics. Much of what people call "artistic talent" is really mechanics. Playing a piano is not really that much different than learning to type -- pressing buttons. Classical musicians and ballet dancers are jocks. Doing mathematics or research science -- creating something new -- is much more akin to music composition. 

What I personally love about mathematics is the way everything interconnects. You can study two subjects which seem to be disconnected, but at a certain level of abstraction are seen to be interrelated or even two facets of the same bigger structure. 
Mathematics is perhaps the only reliable source of epiphanies. 

Incidentally I'm always amused that people think of calculus (a 1st semester freshman class) as being "advanced".


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## HamsterSamurai

I do math when my confidence is low. I feel so good when I get it right because I know that math doesn't have gray areas and nobody can prove me wrong. It's a nice retreat from stressful social interactions.

<3 geometry


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## RecklessInspirer

i dont -.-


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## b90

I used to think I disliked mathematics. But as I learned more, it turned out the math I knew just bored me. As I learned more, it grew more and more interesting, and I started really linking it, up until a certain point, where it got really confusing at times, and I started having a bittersweet relationship with it.

I doubt I'll ever work solely with mathematics, but using it in my studies, and in the tasks I'm provided with through them, is extremely rewarding, and a lot of fun.


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## DrJakeyll

I absolutely HATE math. Soy un ENTP, btw. I know te stereotype of logic loving mathematician and scientist NTs, but I hate both of those subjects. I know what career I am pursuing, and there is 0 math involved, so it just seems like a waste of time.


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## I Kant

I don't like math. I just want to understand it and apply it when it is useful to me.


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## Jane the Ripper

Mathematics is perfect.

And I like that which is perfect.


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## I am me

i'm not an nt but i love math. it's easy and the teacher can't give you points off unless it's wrong. Also, it's just logical and you don't have to work for it, it's just obvious. Also, you can always wing it on my test. i guess i also like it because i do better in math than in any other class.


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## Turophile

I like most math. I get exhilarated by solving problems, so math is fun for me. I really really hate the way most professors teach mathematics though. They can give you a formula, but they dont really know why it works or why it is as awesome as it is. In fact, I had a guy tell me the other day that his professor didnt know what imaginary numbers were really even used for in our lives (he is smart, but in some lower math). That made me mad. If teachers/professors could actually make it more interesting/actually explain it, many many more people would be better at and actually enjoy math.


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## I am me

Turophile said:


> I like most math. I get exhilarated by solving problems, so math is fun for me. I really really hate the way most professors teach mathematics though. They can give you a formula, but they dont really know why it works or why it is as awesome as it is. In fact, I had a guy tell me the other day that his professor didnt know what imaginary numbers were really even used for in our lives (he is smart, but in some lower math). That made me mad. If teachers/professors could actually make it more interesting/actually explain it, many many more people would be better at and actually enjoy math.


yea my math teacher is the best ever. If you ask him what you need math for in life he will give you 20 explanations and then end with (not exact quote) "yea so i guess you don't need math for life". It's great


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## Turophile

I am me said:


> "yea so i guess you don't need math for life". It's great


That is kind of what I mean though....We use math for everything...Although, Im in engineering. So I use it more than most I guess.


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## I am me

Turophile said:


> That is kind of what I mean though....We use math for everything...Although, Im in engineering. So I use it more than most I guess.


i might have worded it wrong. he sarcastically said that line after he named all the ways we use math in life. oh, and i like engineering too don't get me wrong


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## Turophile

I am me said:


> i might have worded it wrong. he sarcastically said that line after he named all the ways we use math in life. oh, and i like engineering too don't get me wrong


Ah  I see. That is awesome, sounds like a cool teacher.


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## azdahak

Turophile said:


> I like most math. I get exhilarated by solving problems, so math is fun for me. I really really hate the way most professors teach mathematics though. They can give you a formula, but they dont really know why it works or why it is as awesome as it is. In fact, I had a guy tell me the other day that his professor didnt know what imaginary numbers were really even used for in our lives (he is smart, but in some lower math). That made me mad. If teachers/professors could actually make it more interesting/actually explain it, many many more people would be better at and actually enjoy math.


Professors have personality types too that effect their teaching styles. Many intj types are very precise with a lot of focus on details, and intp types seem to go for the big picture without regard for "usefulness". I tend to use a lot of analogies and will say things like "think of the kernel of this operator as a collection of bad children getting sent to the zero room" or use the vertices of a WoW Orc as a example of a matrix. 

Lol, but I have to behave myself when the intj reviewers come in. They don't like "lack of precision". I think, it's my job to demonstrate what's -not- in the book....not whats already there.


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## Turophile

azdahak said:


> Professors have personality types too that effect their teaching styles. Many intj types are very precise with a lot of focus on details, and intp types seem to go for the big picture without regard for "usefulness". I tend to use a lot of analogies and will say things like "think of the kernel of this operator as a collection of bad children getting sent to the zero room" or use the vertices of a WoW Orc as a example of a matrix.
> 
> Lol, but I have to behave myself when the intj reviewers come in. They don't like "lack of precision". I think, it's my job to demonstrate what's -not- in the book....not whats already there.


Yeah, I am talking more about professors who just dont know math. They memorized some forumlas, but they dont really know why they work.


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## azdahak

Turophile said:


> Yeah, I am talking more about professors who just dont know math. They memorized some forumlas, but they dont really know why they work.



Are you talking about university? God, I hope not. :angry:

But it's not surprising to get teachers in school who don't know math. In the USA at least, it's all too common to have the football coach as your algebra teacher, and these are the ones that act exactly like you say.


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## astriom

I honestly dislike math, there are more fascinating topics for me to apply my superior intellect toward like understanding the inner workings of the human psyche...
But when I must do math, most often I'm trying to figure out an easier, more intuitive, more efficient way to solve it that requires less space on a sheet of paper and less use of the graphite in my pencil.


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## Turophile

azdahak said:


> Are you talking about university? God, I hope not. :angry:
> 
> But it's not surprising to get teachers in school who don't know math. In the USA at least, it's all too common to have the football coach as your algebra teacher, and these are the ones that act exactly like you say.


Much more common in High School, I have still seen it in college though.


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## k3vin

i like applied math, like statistics + physics, it's neat for it's intrinsic value of being the underlying implication of why things are the way they are.


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## War pigs

I hate math because of the close ended possibilities, I prefer inductive logic to deductive logic, say philosophy.


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## FlightsOfFancy

because I like my:
Computer
DVDs
Movies
Infared Heater (I can't believe I never bought one)
Medicine (a great deal of today's medicines are biochemically engineered---from the use of electron microscope/x-ray studies --math)
The Internet
Chemistry
Physics

I don't know how anyone could not like math even if they weren't good at it. It's the most useful tool of human cognition. Yes, it may cut off possibilities, but those possibilities are fruitless to us. 

It also opens possibilities:
We can measure a surface by continuously moving along it forever.
We can break it up into tiny peices forever

or we can make a function of it and be done with it in 30 seconds..


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## Antipode

NF here - I love math - specifically statistics. I love language arts more, but my second favorite is math. I'm not sure why, though. I can see an equation done once and I'll remember it forever and I'll be able to pick it apart and derive a faster method. I also find it consistent. Although, I find imaginary numbers kind of funny. You can start with a square root of a fraction and by using imaginary numbers, you could end with an answer of 4!

How is that fair to actual numbers that work hard to leave a trail to their original number! :tongue:


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## albino mallato

fuck math


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## Biracial

No.


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## Watch Key Phone

I like maths because it describes the universe. Just knowing that there are simple and all-encompassing rules that define everything that ever is, was, or will be makes me happy. Plus I have a natural knack for picking up on maths quicker than a lot of other people, and I like things that I'm good at.


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## Valiums

Before my enjoyment in math was beaten out of me, I really loved just working with ideas.
If you'll accept a bad metaphor, it's like painting. Working with numbers was like working with just color, without brushes or canvases, just _pure colors_.
And the feel of some ideas was fantastic. I loved spending a boring math period trying to comprehend infinity.

When I started getting towards the slightly more complicated sorts of math, I also like how you could play with it all. There were ways to be funny and tell jokes with equations, and fuck me if that wasn't the greatest thing.


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## Pogona Vitticeps

I like math because it is simultaneously soothing and interesting.


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## azdahak

Vendetta said:


> I hate math because of the close ended possibilities, I prefer inductive logic to deductive logic, say philosophy.


Then you should consider to un-close your opinion.

Inductive inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## War pigs

azdahak said:


> Then you should consider to un-close your opinion.
> 
> Inductive inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Wow there is an article on inductive reasoning on wiki! Thanks man I would have never guessed


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## azdahak

Ack, redirected wrong link. I just meant to show there are mathematical formalizations of inductive reasoning.

Bayesian inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Solomonoff's theory of inductive inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## War pigs

azdahak said:


> Ack, redirected wrong link. I just meant to show there are mathematical formalizations of inductive reasoning.
> 
> Bayesian inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Solomonoff's theory of inductive inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I know. Anyway I wasn't quiet sure about it's meaning lol. I was assuming inductive logic is limitless and deductive is 1+1=2


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## Bazinga187

Maths is only boring because it's taught badly.

I like maths because it's surprisingly creative. There's connections between all sorts of areas of maths that you wouldn't expect. I picture the subject as a spider web. I like that there are so many different ways to approach problems. This becomes more apparent when you have to explain it to someone else. 

I like the consistency. It's not open to interpretation. What I always found in school with subjects like English literature or history, my teachers would give me my essay back and say, "You made some interesting points, but they're wrong." Where can I go from there? Why is it wrong? With maths, you've got it wrong because you did something wrong, but then you know how to improve. 

I also like the answers. NTs seem to have an affinity for philosophy, but to me philosophy feels like all of the logic with none of the answers. You can prove things in maths and I think that's much more powerful and fundamental than anything else. I'm also always surprised by the overlap between philosophers and mathematicians.

I enjoy struggling with maths. The pride I feel in getting a maths problem right is much stronger than in any other subject. That's probably a bit more of a personal reason for liking maths than the others.

I think of maths as a language. It underpins everything. You're completely surrounded by maths from technology to music to nature to the whole universe. I don't understand why people don't want to explore the subject that completely defines everything that ever was, is and will be. 

So, yeah, maths is great.


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## Dove_Eyes

albino mallato said:


> fuck math


lmao


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## Dove_Eyes

I like math.


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## neayic

I like math because my math is always right.

Same reason I like myself.

GOTTTEEEMMM


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## Elistra

Math helps you measure certain aspects of reality, and dramatically cuts down on the risk of personal biases or wishful thinking getting in the way.


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## Midknight5000

I don't like math per se, I'm just really good at it.


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## Collie

I really love math despite how much I tend to struggle with it. I wish I understood it better. It's the language of the universe on every level, from atomic to astronomic, and everything you and I love can be explained by it. If you're clever enough, you can even use it to construct your own realities (e.g. computer graphics, which is what I'm particularly drawn to.)


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