# Differentiations of Basic Trust in the Holy Ideas



## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

How do you experience your holy ideas? Do you feel like you experience multiples of them? Is it like at the same time, or sequentially in your life? Does a metaphorical light bulb just turn on?



Facets of Unity: The Enneagram of Holy Ideas said:


> Here we will discuss each Holy Idea briefly, focusing particularly on its relationship to basic trust. We will explore each in depth in Part Three. We will begin with the Holy Idea for Point Eight, Holy Truth. When basic trust is dominant, the head center opens and we perceive the fact of reality. We see that the universe in its totality—all levels, including the physical—exists in a fundamental way and that that existence is the true reality. We see that all of existence is the manifestation of God, the Divine Being, True Nature—whatever name you wish to give it. So Holy Truth is the perception that God exists as the totality of existence—that He is what exists and the existence of what exists—and God is not something separate from the universe. When basic trust is deeply integrated, we see that everything is pervaded by the living presence or consciousness that we call Living Daylight or Loving Light. It could also be called God, love, consciousness, presence, or Being. This perception of existence is the perspective of Holy Truth.
> 
> The next Idea is that of Point Nine, Holy Love. This is the perception and the understanding that this true reality is the existence of love, it is love, and its action is loving. Another way of putting it is that the universe functions according to benevolent laws. Seen from the perspective of Holy Love, the whole universe is pervaded by, held by, created by, and constituted of, a consciousness that is loving. So at Point Nine, the nature of the Living Daylight dimension of Being is perceived.
> 
> ...


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

It took me a long time to wrap my head around what was important about Holy Love. Finally, I realized in a genuine way how a lack of perception of love (towards myself) creates the nine personality. I realized that when you don't feel inherently lovable, the only thing you can do to avoid lots of shame is to erase yourself. You really cant assert yourself in the world at all if you don't feel lovable. Its interesting because Nines arent the only type that suffer from low self-esteem, but something about their low self-esteem is different. Its more profound... its a sense of "I shouldnt even exist as an individual because I'm not lovable." Clearly that is very different from a 4 point of view, even though they also have low self-esteem.
Nines try to imitate what they think will make people love them-- (being deferential, non-confrontational, etc)-- but they dont really believe that doing this will make people *love* them, only that it will make people not totally hate them. 

I realized that believing in love would save me, because I could be my genuine self, and still believe that love would be there for me, in some form-- i.e. even though I may get mad at a co-worker (for a genuine reason), and I express that anger and the co-worker doesn't like me anymore, my partner will still be there to love me when I get home... stuff like that. 

I've never really had an experience with the holy idea of any other type-- I think its so profound that only one of them will really hit you. Well, holy perfection hits me somewhat, but just not in a very profound way. 

Moving to your integration point, though, it may be helpful to "unlearn" the Holy Idea of your integration point-- because not "knowing" the Holy Idea of a type is what *makes* you that type.... haha. The Holy Idea of point Three is essentially that things happen even if you dont make them happen with the sweat off your brow..... so as a Nine trying to move to Three, I have to learn the opposite of that.... I have to learn that "nothing will happen unless I make it happen" (the typical Three mantra) and in a sense move *away* from the Holy Law/hope etc.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

charlie.elliot said:


> I've never really had an experience with the holy idea of any other type-- I think its so profound that only one of them will really hit you. Well, holy perfection hits me somewhat, but just not in a very profound way.


 I don't think you are limited to the holy idea of your main type. Otherwise, how can anyone be able to communicate to each other the ideas related to their holy ideas? And how they're related? How did anyone connect type two's holy ideas (will and freedom) to eights and fives (truth and omniscience). I would say that I experienced the Holy Plan, Love, and Truth. I "understand" all of the others, but they're not as personal.

Holy Love for me was a permanent on-switch that required me to learn to love and accept myself. And only after I learned how to do that was I able to understand the expressions of love from/in others. From my understanding, nines react to a missing connection to holy love, whereas for me, I never understood _its existence_ in the first place. It's probably an origin to the stereotype of how eights are secretly sentimental.



> Moving to your integration point, though, it may be helpful to "unlearn" the Holy Idea of your integration point-- because not "knowing" the Holy Idea of a type is what *makes* you that type.... haha. The Holy Idea of point Three is essentially that things happen even if you dont make them happen with the sweat off your brow..... so as a Nine trying to move to Three, I have to learn the opposite of that.... I have to learn that "nothing will happen unless I make it happen" (the typical Three mantra) and in a sense move *away* from the Holy Law/hope etc.


 My take is probably the logically opposite of yours. I take the view that your holy ideas are the ideas that you are most mis-aligned with (put them in order, and then select the top arbitrary number), and one of your life quest is to restore them (exactly the same reasoning behind the saying "you are born with the capacities for all nine types within you" and the goal for integrating all the types within you). In the quest of restoring your holy idea to the "more holy state", you, as that corresponding type, have experienced the up and down ranges of responsiveness to that holy idea. Which leads to you being able to see it in others.


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## rainrunner (Jul 15, 2014)

Holy Truth: Seems very spiritual. I'm not sure whether I believe that existence is reality. Or even if what we are experiencing is "real".

Holy Perfection: I don't really relate to this one.

Holy Love: I kind of get it, but it doesn't seem that profound or holy to me, maybe because I'm not a Type 9?

Holy Will: I have had experiences with Holy Will during my meditation practice. Part of it is just letting go and accepting what is. 

Holy Hope: Sometimes I can feel it. That everything will turn out right and that the universe is taking me in the right direction. Sometimes I lose touch of it. When I do, it feels like a huge void in my soul.

Holy Origin: I get the greatest epiphanies when I experience this. No one wants to feel like an abandoned child of the universe.

Holy Omniscience: This is captured in quotes like "You are the universe experiencing itself" and "You are the cosmos experiencing itself." Just amazing and beautiful. You don't need a chemical trip down hallucination avenue to experience this. Just read a math/physics textbook.

Holy Faith: I don't have much of a relationship with this one either.

Holy Plan: Same as above.

So I seem to relate to the Holy Ideas of 2, 3, 4, 5 the most.

@charlie.elliot can you explain what you mean by "unlearning your integration point"? So I would have to unlearn Six's holy idea? It seems like an odd concept to me.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I have finally finished Maitri and I'd say that out of all the holy ideas, it was type 2 I struggled with the most in order to actually understand. I at some point even went into some denial about it lol. I had to force myself to see the validity in what she's saying. I was wondering if that relates to her concept of the soul child and how type 8 has type 2 as theirs and denying type 2 means denying this soul child which is an integral part of how you type structure came to be in the first place. I also have problems fully understanding type 9 though I wonder if that relates to type 9 being the type that applies the logic of self-forgetting and ego-diffusion which becomes this weird cycle of "how can I know myself when I don't know myself" logic. 

The holy ideas I think I understand the best are holy perfection (I don't struggle with this at all really), holy hope/law/harmony, holy origin, holy transparency/omniscience, holy faith/strength (I'd say I don't struggle with this much at all), holy plan/work and holy truth. I understand holy truth well but I have issues accepting it.



charlie.elliot said:


> It took me a long time to wrap my head around what was important about Holy Love. Finally, I realized in a genuine way how a lack of perception of love (towards myself) creates the nine personality. I realized that when you don't feel inherently lovable, the only thing you can do to avoid lots of shame is to erase yourself. You really cant assert yourself in the world at all if you don't feel lovable. Its interesting because Nines arent the only type that suffer from low self-esteem, but something about their low self-esteem is different. Its more profound... its a sense of "I shouldnt even exist as an individual because I'm not lovable." Clearly that is very different from a 4 point of view, even though they also have low self-esteem.
> Nines try to imitate what they think will make people love them-- (being deferential, non-confrontational, etc)-- but they dont really believe that doing this will make people *love* them, only that it will make people not totally hate them.


Well, I think all types obviously have the capacity to suffer from poor self-esteem, but how they deal with it is very different. As you say, 9s self-forget/erase, which is very contrary to 7 that denies their own pain and thus also their poor self-esteem and may try to give it a positive spin with, "What me? No I'm good enough, I'm fucking perfect man. Couldn't feel better in life." 8s also feel unlovable for example, but it has less to do with feeling that their inherent nature is not lovable and more to do with feeling that one is fundamentally bad in some way, and not bad in the 1-ish sense of being flawed or such, but more like how Ichazo alludes to feeling sinful, cast out of heaven. I like how Maitri compares it with the fall from grace or original sin. It's extremely difficult to put into words since it has nothing to do with a sense of feeling flawed. It's just a very deep-seated and profound feeling of being bad. 

With that said, I think it ties back to how 9 is the crown of the enneagram and how all the other types reflect this 9-ish sense of not feeling loved.


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

@cir @rainrunner
Being disconnected with holy love is what *makes* me a Nine. So logically being disconnected from Holy Law/Hope/Harmony would help me "be" a Three. And yes I don't mean this quite seriously... Obviously in the long run its best to be in touch with any or all of the holy ideas. But because Three is in many ways the opposite of Nine, it's really interesting to me to look at the Holy Idea of type Three and think, "hmm what makes Threes tick?" (I.e. what is it like to be disconnected from *this* holy idea?) 
Actually what I found was really profound: Threes are out of touch with Holy Law, which means they don't believe anything will happen unless they make it happen-- and to get in touch with their holy idea, they need to learn that "Being acts through them", that they are part of the world. This is exactly the _opposite_ of what Nine needs to learn! Nines believe, and too much so, that "Being acts through them", so they assume things will just happen, and don't realize they have to take personal initiative to get things done.
So, as weird as it sounds, it is actually helpful to me unlearn Holy Law-- because it drives me to act on my own and take initiatve, to "hold up my own world" as a Three does . And really it's just a balancing act-- before, I was "too much" in touch with Holy Law-- so now I'm bringing myself back into balance. 
Make sense?


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## charlie.elliot (Jan 22, 2014)

cir said:


> Holy Love for me was a permanent on-switch that required me to learn to love and accept myself. And only after I learned how to do that was I able to understand the expressions of love from/in others. From my understanding, nines react to a missing connection to holy love, whereas for me, I never understood _its existence_ in the first place...


Ahh interesting thank you!! 
That would explain why 8s can be callous and impersonal, and dont mind intimidating or even hurting someone in certain situations. Which to a Nine is baffling. Nines are aware of holy love, but don't think it applies to them. (everybody else, except yourself!) 

And now I am thinking more about the holy ideas of other types... To see if I'm really disconnected from any of the other ones, or have some other kind of reaction (like yours with holy love)... Or if I'm too much alligned and aware of some holy ideas, like I think I am with point three's.... 

Does anyone else feel that they are *too much* aware of the holy idea of their integration point? That they know it too well? And that is what actually *makes* them their type? 
How do 8s feel about Holy Will, the holy idea of type two? It seems as if you could be too much in touch with that idea, since 8s are so much about personal will. And your growth process is to calm down and realize that some things can be accomplished through connections with other people, not just on your own (whereas Twos have to learn the opposite-- that they can do things on their own, not just through their connections to others).


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

charlie.elliot said:


> How do 8s feel about Holy Will, the holy idea of type two?


Scroll up a little, I already partially responded to that. 



> It seems as if you could be too much in touch with that idea, since 8s are so much about personal will. And your growth process is to calm down and realize that some things can be accomplished through connections with other people, not just on your own (whereas Twos have to learn the opposite-- that they can do things on their own, not just through their connections to others).


To explain why I feel the way I do about 2, is that when it comes to holy will, there is therefore an idea that I should surrender to the fact that whatever happened to me did because such is the will of the world and the universe and because I inherently see what happened to me as bad and robbing me of power, it's very difficult to admit this. How could this be the intended outcome of things? I understand the reasoning here but understanding is obviously not the same as accepting. Because I refuse to accept this, I have this innate drive that I must shape it to my own desire, take matters in my own hands if you will, to the point of becoming oblivious to and ignoring the affect I have on others because the wills and desires of others cannot be trusted. They could not do it for me as a child so how will they be able to do it for me as an adult?

So I suppose it's more that it's distorted or perhaps as Maitri writes about the soul child, childish and selfish. I feel like there's something important to say here, but not sure what it is or how to articulate it as of this moment.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

charlie.elliot said:


> Does anyone else feel that they are *too much* aware of the holy idea of their integration point? That they know it too well? And that is what actually *makes* them their type?
> How do 8s feel about Holy Will, the holy idea of type two? It seems as if you could be too much in touch with that idea, since 8s are so much about personal will. And your growth process is to calm down and realize that some things can be accomplished through connections with other people, not just on your own (whereas Twos have to learn the opposite-- that they can do things on their own, not just through their connections to others).


 I learned Holy Will when my friend killed himself. What is power if I can't use it to save the people I care about? And part of overcoming our (eights and twos) ego-traps is by understanding that we ultimately are responsible for our own lives (but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you can to make things better). 

I think those seemingly contradictory directions the holy ideas express can be attributed to a "micro"/worm's eye view of seeing things (Holy Omniscience; Holy Freedom) vs a "macro"/bird's eye view of seeing things (Holy Truth; Holy Will).

I learned Holy Faith through tapping into my boyfriend's missing Holy Love. Granted, I never had to exert much effort, but it never occurred to me that faith needs to be explicit at times. It's just something I've always taken for granted.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

> The next Idea, that of Point Six, is Holy Faith or Holy Strength. It tells us that implicit in basic trust is the faith or confidence that reality or God will come through, will support us, is fundamentally there for us. Holy Faith is the closest Idea to basic trust itself; it is a differentiated perception of basic trust. As we said, basic trust is not differentiated enough to be a feeling or an idea; when it becomes explicit, we call it Holy Faith.





> How do you experience your holy ideas? Do you feel like you experience multiples of them? Is it like at the same time, or sequentially in your life? Does a metaphorical light bulb just turn on?


Not often n ironically often have to seek reassurance that things will surely be ok or on the other hand, don't trust others basic belief that it's going to be okay, it's hard to get it just right. I don't give myself credit when I do have implicit faith and sometimes don't even notice because my reactions can be simply knee-jerk. When I do notice my own strength, that my presence is evident without criticising myself for being arrogant, then it's a good feeling, I feel alive instead of half dead because all too often I feel like a brain with no body attached to it, sometimes when I express opinions, I don't think others can hear them, it's a neurosis from childhood at not being listened to or taken seriously yet the head energy going on is cray cray. It doesn't actually seem overly complicated to give yourself credit that you trust yourself and others in a harmonious way, it just seems more difficult because old habits die hard and overcoming that is the hardest part.


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## rainrunner (Jul 15, 2014)

charlie.elliot said:


> Make sense?


I can see how for a Nine that would make sense. And, logically it makes sense. But for a Three who would integrate to a Six, being disconnected from Holy Faith, one would feel very insecure and will try to achieve to attain security instead of out of shame or image. But to integrate to a six would mean that the three would be secure with himself and stop neurotically trying to achieve and see his self-image as defined by his achievements. My understanding is missing here somewhere...


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

8 is easy. Took me a while to recognize it, and value it as a focus to grow.
4 is easy. I am unique, I am connected, I am part of One.
2 came to me, and I am working on this still. I came to it through 8 - I cannot control another, I cannot do much about their destiny, and it is not right that I try. Let it go.....
6. I get the theory. i'm not ready to fall off that cliff.
9. mom was big on this one, and I can find it if I look. 
1. nearest I have is to walk outside a building and realize the world is beautiful, and gorgeous, and amazing.
3 and 5 and 7 not so much.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

When I think of holy faith for type six I think of this song and this song both of which I really relate to






I definitely have that push-pull with faith. I'm attracted to it, but I'm afraid to get burned. 






This one has so much six angst. He sounds like he's singing about a type nine and how much he wants the peace and faith they seem to have. In the video he's just falling, which is how I tend to feel. Like I'm just falling and there is nothing to catch me. All I want is that peace and faith. And then in the end he falls into the white light, which is what I dream of happening. That I'd just magically float into a safe, loving world. The white light also makes me think of the nine holy idea of holy love. Like a symbol of universal love, and sixes integrate to nine. I lay awake at night often and think of myself as this little speck in this huge universe just floating along with nothing to stop me falling and anything could happen. Both of those songs give me that feeling. That feeling of being lost in a huge universe. There is something powerful and amazing about it for me at the same time. It's so hard to explain. I guess the best way to put it is that it's the beauty of the sublime. It's terrorizing and amazing at the same time, which is why I push and pull between my lack and faith and having faith. The uncertainty and grandeur of the universe is just so amazing. It's hard to want to lose that exactly. In a sense I love my instability, even though I crave stability too. Darkness is beautiful. To have everything be certain would almost be boring. For me it's more that I accept the inexplicable and find beauty in the chaos. And that's when it all starts to make sense somehow.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

These pictures sort of exemplify holy faith for me


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Interesting. Holy Plan gives me this feeling:










Whereas, eight disintegrating to five gives me this feeling:









My actual fear is best summed by the second picture. So imagine my surprise when I realized that both pictures are showing the exact same structure!


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> Interesting. Holy Plan gives me this feeling:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everything can be viewed from an infinite number of angles and viewpoints. I am Ne primary, and pretty bright, and my Ne can look at a given issue from a multitude of angles and viewpoints very rapidly, but when I examine, I find my Ne is indeed time linear, just incredibly quick. 

However, the universe EXISTS and IS and all viewpoints are equally valid at any time and for all times, and really, the viewpoint for a given time and different angle and different viewer is ready to be "known" always and simultaneously also only valid when it is viewed. 

Think Schroedinger's cat. Or, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal. 

This is my understanding of 5.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Everything can be viewed from an infinite number of angles and viewpoints. I am Ne primary, and pretty bright, and my Ne can look at a given issue from a multitude of angles and viewpoints very rapidly, but when I examine, I find my Ne is indeed time linear, just incredibly quick.
> 
> However, the universe EXISTS and IS and all viewpoints are equally valid at any time and for all times, and really, the viewpoint for a given time and different angle and different viewer is ready to be "known" always and simultaneously also only valid when it is viewed.
> 
> ...


 The transition between Holy Truth and Holy Omniscience seems so neat. If only more was written on the holy ideas and how they relate/move around, other by offering how type twos have a secret connection to type five somehow. I want to know about that somehow.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Enneagram of Holy Ideas at The Almaasary • A Glossary of Key Passages from the Work of A.H. Almaas

Certain Ways of Experiencing Reality
The Holy Ideas are not exactly states of consciousness; they are certain ways of experiencing reality. So you could be experiencing a particular essential state, and at the same time you might experience transparency or not. You cannot, however, experience transparency without experiencing some quality of Being, because if you are not experiencing Being you are experiencing ego, and the Holy Ideas are not accessible in the egoic realm.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

so this shit sort of makes sense to me at a certain level. I do NOT understand the different enneagram types, but I believe I can Grok the different views of most of these. So, Holy Truth makes sense to me intrinsically, and if I shift my world view, and read about 2's view in this writing, I can Grok 2's view on it as a different view from 8. They are not exclusive, but rather different viewpoints of the same concepts, with subtle embellishments. 
I can actually sort of understand all of them except 6, which was too intricate so far. 

I'd like to argue / discuss it with someone. Cir? Buhler? Anyone?


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Some reflections:



> We will begin with the Holy Idea for Point Eight, Holy Truth. When basic trust is dominant, the head center opens and we perceive the fact of reality. We see that the universe in its totality—all levels, including the physical—exists in a fundamental way and that that existence is the true reality. We see that all of existence is the manifestation of God, the Divine Being, True Nature—whatever name you wish to give it. So Holy Truth is the perception that God exists as the totality of existence—that He is what exists and the existence of what exists—and God is not something separate from the universe. When basic trust is deeply integrated, we see that everything is pervaded by the living presence or consciousness that we call Living Daylight or Loving Light. It could also be called God, love, consciousness, presence, or Being. This perception of existence is the perspective of Holy Truth.


This actually matches my secret, pseudo-pantheistic outlook on life, nearly word for word.



> The next Idea is that of Point Nine, Holy Love. This is the perception and the understanding that this true reality is the existence of love, it is love, and its action is loving. Another way of putting it is that the universe functions according to benevolent laws. Seen from the perspective of Holy Love, the whole universe is pervaded by, held by, created by, and constituted of, a consciousness that is loving. So at Point Nine, the nature of the Living Daylight dimension of Being is perceived.


So I guess the universe is benevolent, and we're part of its fabric. Therefore we will never _not_ be part-of, never not be "loved".



> When basic trust is prominent in the soul, you not only perceive the fundamental existence of the universe as a presence whose nature is inherently loving, but you also see that it is perfect. This is the perspective of Holy Perfection, the Holy Idea of Point One. Not only is existence seen to be perfect, not only is everything in it seen to be just right, but whatever happens is also seen as right. Being is seen to have a rightness about it, and the way it functions is also seen as right. So the presence of basic trust makes possible not only the acceptance of what is, but also a sense of the perfection of what is.


I guess it's like how my parents always told me, "You're perfect exactly how God made you". Maybe that was right, but it was hard to actually feel that. I do generally subscribe to that viewpoint though--maybe we _don't_ have to change anything. Maybe things are doing what they're supposed to.



> Holy Will, the Idea of Point Two, is the perception that whatever happens is the functioning of this true consciousness. Out of this perception follows an acceptance of what transpires, an acceptance of the will of the universe, which leads to Holy Freedom, another name for this point’s Holy Idea. If you are in touch with the presence of Being, pervaded by the Living Daylight, *you see all that happens as its functioning, and so it makes sense to surrender to whatever happens.* You know that whatever happens is fine and, in not resisting it, you realize a sense of freedom, a sense of flow. So Holy Freedom has to do with the relationship of the soul to reality.


The bolded part made me think of 9. I'm not sure how it relates to type 2 directly. I suppose in that the 2 doesn't have to rise to the occasion; with an honest appraisement of one's own worth and abilities (i.e., humility) the 2 is free to work in tandem with whatever actually exists, possibly doing far more good this way than forcing the issues.



> The Holy Idea for Point Three is Holy Hope, Holy Law, or Holy Harmony. Holy Hope is the perception that because all that happens is the functioning of a benevolent reality, things naturally move in the right direction. There is trust that the natural unfoldment of the universe functions according to inherently optimizing laws, and so things evolve correctly; therefore, you don’t need to take matters into your own hands to make them happen. *There is an implicit hope, rather than a hoping that the right things will happen.*


I don't get the bolded, grammatically speaking. 

Without really understanding type 3, I'd think this whole holy idea wouldn't really make a lot of sense. I'm thinking of when I just read Riso and Hudson...I wouldn't have understood what this had to do with 3. It helps to realize that 3s feel pressured to constantly be on top of things. I think they feel entropy and the ability for things to not go optimally more strongly than the other types. Hence, a need to reference outward assurances that this is NOT happening (ie, achievements).



> Holy Origin is the Holy Idea for Point Four. This is the perception that we as individual souls, as well as all that exists, come from and are part of the loving presence of Being. Being is our origin, our substance, our nature. From this perspective, we see that implicit in basic trust is the sense of connection with our Source.


I wish this one had more elaboration! I was under the impression Holy Origin was about connecting with oneself and realizing that we all come from the same source; hence my nature as a 4 would be no different from that of others. No one is truly alone.



> Holy Omniscience, sometimes called Holy Transparency, the Holy Idea for Point Five, again deals with the relationship of the soul to reality. Omniscient means all-knowing, so the perspective here is that in the presence of basic trust, the soul knows reality—but it knows it specifically as a oneness. This is the perception, the realization, the understanding that everything that exists is interconnected and makes up one thing. The boundaries experienced by ego are not ultimately real, so separation and isolation are illusions. The view of Holy Omniscience is the perception that you cannot truly separate yourself since we are all one thing, and any sense of boundaries between ourselves and anything that exists in the universe is not ultimate. Omniscience is the way God knows things—as a totality, as one thing with no separations. From this perspective, we see what God sees: Everything is one.


All right! We're all part of a gigantic quantum wave! Every atom and sub-atomic particle in the universe knows what each other atom and sub-atomic particle is doing. If you understand one, you understand everything. That's an important lesson in quantum physics, and an important lesson in mysticism as well as psychology. Rock on, Fives. 

That is also another part of my world view.



> The next Idea, that of Point Six, is Holy Faith or Holy Strength. It tells us that implicit in basic trust is the faith or confidence that reality or God will come through, will support us, is fundamentally there for us. Holy Faith is the closest Idea to basic trust itself; it is a differentiated perception of basic trust. As we said, basic trust is not differentiated enough to be a feeling or an idea; when it becomes explicit, we call it Holy Faith.


That seems straightforward.



> Holy Wisdom, Holy Work, or Holy Plan is the Idea for Point Seven. When there is basic trust in reality, we not only perceive that things are fine the way they are and that what happens is optimal, but we also get a sense of how things are unfolding. We have a sense of what the evolution of a human being toward completeness is about, what the natural, spontaneous evolution of the human soul looks like. The Holy Plan, then, is God’s plan—the perception of the direction of the soul’s unfoldment when it is in contact with Being—the blueprint of what a human being is meant to become. From the perspective of Holy Plan, we see that the universe functions in such a way that human beings can become complete. A human being becomes complete when God is fully replicated in that human life, when the macrocosm is replicated in the microcosm. This is what is meant in some spiritual traditions by man becoming the image of God. Holy Work is the actual evolution, the process of that unfoldment itself. Holy Work is God’s work, which is the unfoldment of the consciousness of the soul into the perception of the whole universe and whatever efforts we make in that direction. So the Work is part of Holy Work, and in it we are working to bring our souls into alignment with the Holy Plan through being present. Action in the present in reality is Holy Work, and such action evolves and develops the soul according to the natural laws of its unfoldment—according to the Holy Plan for how a human being develops.


I'm thinking that also includes the grim side of life, like old age, suffering, and death, and how death actually helps to evolve more life. Imagine if no one ever died. We'd all still be single cell organisms with nothing to eat and about 5 billion years of experience...which would frankly be boring as fuck. The only reason we evolved was in response to things like death, predators, etc. We all support each other, we're all part of the flow, and pain helps us evolve. We (the life forms on earth) are all working together to build something greater than the sum of parts.

I recently had this talk with myself when faced with my own mortality. I guess my life here is just one story amongst the billions that somehow enrich our world, and perhaps my individual consciousness is the much lesser part of that existence. 


I think the underlying theme to all these is that we're all part of a whole, and that this whole is everything we hoped it would be. They honestly kind of all seem the same to me.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

One of the major paradoxes of any "religion" or spiritual thought is whether destiny or free will ultimately carries out. Intrinsic in these exercises is the thought we do have free will, and we are part of the the universe, and we are the universe, and the universe is us. But throughout, we do have free will. 

At the same time, everything else has a free will, and that universal will is ok to exist without our help, and it does not NEED nor want our help, and we cannot really affect things outside ourselves with any importance. Further, there are other people in the universe, and they are free to do as they wish, and our adjusting them is not going to work. So, rather than waste away our energy in angst, we are better off to let it go, and let others do as they wish. I think I'm an 8, and have control issues, yet the lesson for 2 is to let others do as they wish. 

Perhaps the shallow lesson for 8 is there is an omnipotent power which dwarfs me and everything I did.

On the benevolence of it all. One way to judge or categorize a system is if the system is convergent or divergent. A small airplane is convergent as you can trim it out, and take your hands off the controls, and the plane will continue to fly for a time even given minor turbulence. A helicopter is divergent as when the pilot takes his hands off the controls, the helicopter crashes in very short order. 
Rather than good, or benevolent, the universe is convergent, and all encompassing, and continuous. 

I can intellectualize 4,6,9, but I'm not ready to buy into 9 and 6 just yet.




The Typeless Wonder said:


> S
> 
> They honestly kind of all seem the same to me.


they are. Different perspectives, different nuances, but they are describing the same thing.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> I can actually sort of understand all of them except 6, which was too intricate so far.


 This is how *I* experienced Holy Faith. Imagine a Ferrero Rocher candy:










Now, the outer, chocolatey shell is the body/ego/whatever (notice the bumps!). When I experienced Holy Faith, it felt like my essence "wiggled" inside my body, as if the wafer shell wiggled and rotated inside the chocolatey shell. It was followed by the affirmation that I am indeed filled with hazelnut-chocolatey goodness, and no one can possibly take that away from me. The hazelnut-chocolatey goodness could represent a mixture of faith *and* love, and this is one of the ways I suppose Holy Faith and Holy Love are intrinsically related, but not in a form that I can put into words.



The Typeless Wonder said:


> I recently had this talk with myself when faced with my own mortality. I guess my life here is just one story amongst the billions that somehow enrich our world, and perhaps my individual consciousness is the much lesser part of that existence.


 This sounds more like Holy Omniscience than Holy Truth.



> I think the underlying theme to all these is that we're all part of a whole, and that this whole is everything we hoped it would be. They honestly kind of all seem the same to me.


 Yeah, they do seem like all of the same thing to me. Now, which of these viewpoints can you absolutely be certain you've *felt* either emotionally or physically?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> Th
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, they do seem like all of the same thing to me. Now, which of these viewpoints can you absolutely be certain you've *felt* either emotionally or physically?


Only the one and all. (smiles) they are all the same, so if you "feel" one, you "feel" all. but I find myself unable to grok some perspectives and nuances. 

"feel" and rationalize are basically unrelated. Many people have "felt" god's love. My crazy mother showed me at a pretty young age, but I denied it. Most religions are based on "rapture", or "god's love" or whatever and they are based upon someone once upon a time "feeling" it but not understanding it. I'm still that way - I don't really "understand it", but I don't think I'm supposed to either.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Only the one and all. (smiles) they are all the same, so if you "feel" one, you "feel" all. but I find myself unable to grok some perspectives and nuances.


 Which is why I insist that people are not limited to the holy ideas of their own type!


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> Which is why I insist that people are not limited to the holy ideas of their own type!


And, I thank you. I really struggle understanding the enneagram types of different people. I am poor at memorizing, and I don't understand people, and my frame of reference for it all is shaky. 

I never looked at the holy ideas before very seriously. With your help, and this thread, it all comes together for me, and it all makes sense how the different enneagrams find the holy ideas through different paths. I believe you can find a different holy idea before you find the one from your own enneagram. 3 is something i learned a while ago, but my control issues caused me to struggle with 8.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Yay! That's good to hear! 



drmiller100 said:


> I believe you can find a different holy idea before you find the one from your own enneagram. 3 is something i learned a while ago, but my control issues caused me to struggle with 8.


 Yes! I experienced Holy Plan, Love, and Truth *in that order*. Learning how to Holy Love _immediately_ lead me to Holy Truth. Which is why I took notice when Maitri wrote:


> Here, the need to be all right of Ego-Planning (Seven) meets the inner deadness of Ego-Indolence (Nine). ... From another angle, the Seven's hunger for stimulation plus the deadness to the essential realm of Nine leads to the Eight's lust for material gratifications and his focus on sensory satisfactions.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> Yay! That's good to hear!
> 
> Yes! I experienced Holy Plan, Love, and Truth *in that order*. Learning how to Holy Love _immediately_ lead me to Holy Truth. Which is why I took notice when Maitri wrote
> 
> _to the Eight's lust for material gratifications and his focus on sensory satisfactions._:


Maitri is wrong. 8's do not need to have focus on sensory satisfaction or material gratifications. Some of us have lust for other indulgences, and we numb ourselves in other ways. I use sex and knowledge and control as objects of my lust.

to be fair i did have a stage in my 20's where i was VERY materialistic. not overly sensory though - more intuitive.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Maitri is wrong. 8's do not need to have focus on sensory satisfaction or material gratifications. Some of us have lust for other indulgences, and we numb ourselves in other ways. I use sex and knowledge and control as objects of my lust.
> 
> to be fair i did have a stage in my 20's where i was VERY materialistic. not overly sensory though - more intuitive.


 Sex is *literally* sensory satisfaction. Knowledge and control are "material"/immaterial gratifications.

I mean, eights *don't need to*, but I'm seeing more confirmations than anything...


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## Hespera (Jun 3, 2011)

For 1's our Holy Idea is Holy Perfection and our virtue is Serenity. To me I experience it as a 'coming home,' feeling safe and whole, carrying this peaceful, easy feeling wherever I go. I'm not sure if this is tied to how everyone feels about the concept of Holy Idea in general (that peace when the personality is free of the passions and fixations) or has anything to do with Serenity specifically, but there you go.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Hespera said:


> For 1's our Holy Idea is Holy Perfection and our virtue is Serenity. To me I experience it as a 'coming home,' feeling safe and whole, carrying this peaceful, easy feeling wherever I go. I'm not sure if this is tied to how everyone feels about the concept of Holy Idea in general (that peace when the personality is free of the passions and fixations) or has anything to do with Serenity specifically, but there you go.


I am not a 1, but it seems to me a 1 has issues with wanting things "perfect." My understanding of your holy idea is you will come to realize things are "already" perfect, and always were. Your acceptance, and comfort and harmony wiht that lets you not try to make things perfect.

Which is what you described in your post.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Hespera said:


> For 1's our Holy Idea is Holy Perfection and our virtue is Serenity. To me I experience it as a 'coming home,' feeling safe and whole, carrying this peaceful, easy feeling wherever I go. I'm not sure if this is tied to how everyone feels about the concept of Holy Idea in general (that peace when the personality is free of the passions and fixations) or has anything to do with Serenity specifically, but there you go.


 The closest thing I feel to mortal serenity is when sunlight (how my mortal-egoness imagines "god's light") shines on me. There is that warm fuzzy feeling, like being loved by the sun, that everything will be fine, and that things will be taken care of.

Which means on cloudy days, I'm especially upset. Upset in such a way that I can only direct towards myself, because it's not anyone's fault that the sun isn't out.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> The closest thing I feel to mortal serenity is when sunlight (how my mortal-egoness imagines "god's light") shines on me. There is that warm fuzzy feeling, like being loved by the sun, that everything will be fine, and that things will be taken care of.


I get SAD (seasonal blah blah blah) but have learned to relish the weather on my face no matter what it is. When I'm stressed or whatever walking outside helps me remember........

I learned "mortal serenity" on tops of tall mountains while admiring how insignificant I am compared to a small corner of a small state on a meaningless planet.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I meant to get back to this earlier. But _life_.



cir said:


> This sounds more like Holy Omniscience than Holy Truth.
> 
> Yeah, they do seem like all of the same thing to me. Now, which of these viewpoints can you absolutely be certain you've *felt* either emotionally or physically?


I am absolutely certain that the 5-7-8 trifecta here makes the most sense to me, though as you saw above, I have trouble distinguishing which is which. 

Do you think the holy ideas a good way to type oneself?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

what appeals to you about each?


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> I meant to get back to this earlier. But _life_.


 "Life"? Isn't that just a board game?


> I am absolutely certain that the 5-7-8 trifecta here makes the most sense to me, though as you saw above, I have trouble distinguishing which is which.


 The best thing about 7-5-8 is, on the enneagram map, you can complete a _full_ closed loop connecting those three types _without_ lifting your drawing instrument! Must be really useful to someone who knows herself as almost evenly split between 8 and 7.

Type seven's holy idea, when you zoom out enough is Holy Wisdom.
Type eight's holy idea is Holy Truth.
Type five's holy idea is Holy Omniscience.

Holy Truth is commonly "all is one", but "there exists" is the purest way to word it (eights are most likely to think both mean the same thing; think computer binary logic and what 0 and 1 refers to logically and physically). If you were to envision the "Law of Three" as the inner connected triangle, the "Law of Seven" as the twisted structure, then "Law of One" is the circumference around the circle. It necessarily connects *all* types, which is why I *emphasize* energy movement around the circumference is not only possible, but necessary.

Holy Omniscience is basically the inverse of the Holy Truth:
Holy Truth = 1/(Holy Omniscience)
Holy Truth is about the viewpoint that reality lacks distinguishment. It's a "bird's eye view" of seeing the world. Holy Omniscience is the "worm's eye view" of seeing the world; that each individual (a recognition of a boundary, to distinguish) is a manifestation of that whole. It seems to be concerned with the question "_how does one know?_" Type five's temptation is to replace direct experience with _concepts_, and therefore, type five is the most likely to think both mean the same thing. (Overcoming duality is a major problem for *every*one.)

In my mortal life, it plays out like this: a specific type five says "you can't do anything unless you know what to do" (with an emphasis on _declaratives_), and I'm like "there exists people who don't know what to do beforehand but managed to figure out how to do it anyway" (with an emphasis on _imperatives_).

Holy Plan, Work, and Wisdom describes a process. The _only_ requirement to experience this is _basic faith_ (not Holy Faith). If the body types are defined by a preoccupation to (physical) reality, then it means they are most concerned with _applications_ (actions/will, used like "thoughts" or "image") of space and time (because type nine's theme is _inertia_, a resistance to change in speed _or_ direction). Sevens are most consciously _aware_ of the effects of space and time, and Twos are most consciously _concerned_ about the effects of autonomy (a body triad preoccupation) (Holy Will: Holy Truth; Holy Freedom: Holy Omniscience).

From my experience, Holy Plan is basically "in the middle" between Holy Truth and Holy Omniscience. The Holy Plan, in my experience, showed me the folly of ego-planning in the most traumatic way possible (sevens' basic drive is to avoid pain), and then showed me how to fix it. Holy Work *is* being present (an antidote to sevens' future-oriented drive; it's so bad that it's even part of a holy idea) ("being present"/here and now/distance and time is one of the preoccupations of the body triad), and it refers to what you, the individual, can personally do to improve yourself/life. To me, that seems to be at the Holy Omniscience level. Holy Wisdom, to me, is the "zoom out and take a look at the changes" level and is _in the direction towards_ Holy Truth. When things are continually improving, the Holy Plan tells me "I don't need to torture you anymore. You already know what to do. Here is a view at what everyone is moving towards, what _inevitability_ looks like" (that picture of the cosmos from posts ago). That inevitability is another manifestation of the Holy Truth, that "all is one".



> Do you think the holy ideas a good way to type oneself?


 Yeah? Isn't one of the (sets of) definitions of each enneatype is _which_ holy idea they are *most* susceptible to (not necessarily the *first* idea you experienced)?

In another thread, some guy tried his best to figure out what the Holy Truth is (even after I told him the answer), and he managed to return Holy Faith and Holy Omniscience (between me explicitly calling out both ideas, someone else opined that there is a 6w5/5w6 flavor in his posts). I mean... Even if it isn't the best way to type oneself (especially if you don't know what the holy ideas _mean_), it seems like a good starting point.

But it's the method I use to type people in real life.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a sense you can't just be great at ONE holy idea. In order to Grok one idea, you find there are a couple of others which also make sense at the same time. 

One of the prerequisites is you must be able to hold two dissimilar, opposing ideas in your mind at one time, and know both are true simultaneously. for me, "my truth is not your truth, but both are valid." Likewise, "his truth is not her truth is not my truth, but I respect all 3 equally." 

From the 2 viewpoint, perhaps something like "If I don't help, things will still turn out. In fact, the other person needs to find their own way and be hurt and stub their toe and ultimately things will turn out the way they need to be with or without me, and I can find joy in watching."

All have the requirement of being able to hold dissimilar, opposing ideas in your head simultaneously, and hold them all as truth.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> "Life"? Isn't that just a board game?
> The best thing about 7-5-8 is, on the enneagram map, you can complete a _full_ closed loop connecting those three types _without_ lifting your drawing instrument! Must be really useful to someone who knows herself as almost evenly split between 8 and 7.
> 
> Type seven's holy idea, when you zoom out enough is Holy Wisdom.
> ...


Why is it so hard for you to let go, my dear @cir ?

It's not just that you say you *are* sure, you *need* to be certain, god forbid.

You figure it all out what it *means*, which is a conceptual understanding. But the loss of contact with Holy Idea is not so much, or not just a conceptual (mis-) understanding, as we were very young and ignorant, perhaps hardly knew words to even describe. It is a mis-understanding, a basic mis-trust, felt in every vein of our body, making us attach (with every vein of our body, our heart and mind) to false dispositions or beliefs, and anticipate, conditioned by (basic) fear or desire. 

Likewise, Holy Idea, and transformation an sich, is not just to try and grasp conceptually, but to let go, and uncondition in every vein of our body, even healing the wounds in our heart that shies away from hurt.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> Why is it so hard for you to let go, my dear @_cir_ ?
> 
> It's not just that you say you *are* sure, you *need* to be certain, god forbid.
> 
> ...





drmiller100 said:


> T
> One of the prerequisites is you must be able to hold two dissimilar, opposing ideas in your mind at one time, and know both are true simultaneously. for me, "my truth is not your truth, but both are valid." Likewise, "his truth is not her truth is not my truth, but I respect all 3 equally."
> 
> From the 2 viewpoint, perhaps something like "If I don't help, things will still turn out. In fact, the other person needs to find their own way and be hurt and stub their toe and ultimately things will turn out the way they need to be with or without me, and I can find joy in watching."
> ...



Mimesis, your truth is valid, and my truth is valid, and Cir's truth is valid. All different. All concurrent.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> Mimesis, your truth is valid, and my truth is valid, and Cir's truth is valid. All different. All concurrent.


You don't need to buy it. It's a gift. :happy:


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> You don't need to buy it. It's a gift. :happy:


purchase it?? I do not understand!

????


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> purchase it?? I do not understand!
> 
> ????


It was a double entendre. Value it true or false whatever you like.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> It's not just that you say you *are* sure, you *need* to be certain, god forbid.


 I honestly have no idea what meaning you are trying to convey here. You're confusing me, I don't like that, and I have this feeling of impatience and annoyance, that SAME RAGE triggered by my mom, one of my brothers, and one of my bosses at work, *and they're all sixes*. Not that it necessarily means you are one, of course, but you trigger the same feelings in me, and in my mind, you might as well be. If I'm wrong, then there's additional data to recalibrate. If it never gets verified, I'll rest easy being certain that I'll never know your true type, another person on the internet.

This first sentence alone brings attention to whatever it is that you're obsessed about. It sounds like something a crazy person would say. And yes, it does take one to know one, thanks! People who are generally confident about things, just _implicitly_ assume it's a given, and don't really feel the need to talk about it. I think it's even a polite thing to do, because otherwise, it would require me to pry into things that aren't any of my business. And I don't want to make it my business. I prefer focusing on the contents of the conversation. This is nothing personal to you, but it's honestly how I use it to identify others, and you were just the most recent example. So I wonder which Holy Idea would best fit whatever it is you're trying to say here?



> You figure it all out what it *means*, which is a conceptual understanding. But the loss of contact with Holy Idea is not so much, or not just a conceptual (mis-) understanding, as we were very young and ignorant, perhaps hardly knew words to even describe. It is a mis-understanding, a basic mis-trust, felt in every vein of our body, making us attach (with every vein of our body) to false dispositions or beliefs, and anticipate, conditioned by (basic) fear or desire.
> Likewise, Holy Idea, and transformation an sich, is not just to try and grasp conceptually, but to let go, and uncondition in every vein of our body, even healing the wounds in our heart that shies away from hurt.


 I'm glad you agree.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

CRAZY ALERT CHOO CHOO!!! :crazy: Let me demonstrate a HOLY TRUTH TRAIN! And the *inclusive* nature of it!



drmiller100 said:


> Mimesis, *your truth is valid, and my truth is valid, and Cir's truth is valid. All different. All concurrent.*





mimesis said:


> You figure it all out what it *means*, which is a conceptual understanding. But the loss of contact with Holy Idea is not so much, or not just a conceptual (mis-) understanding, as we were very young and ignorant, perhaps hardly knew words to even describe. It is a mis-understanding, a basic mis-trust, felt in every vein of our body, making us attach (with every vein of our body, our heart and mind) to false dispositions or beliefs, and anticipate, conditioned by (basic) fear or desire.
> 
> Likewise, Holy Idea, and transformation an sich, is not just to try and grasp conceptually, but to let go, and uncondition in every vein of our body, even healing the wounds in our heart that shies away from hurt.


 *I'm glad you agree.*

Here's the score card so far: 


@_drmiller100_ agrees with drmiller100's truth, my truth, and mimesis's truth.
I agree with drmiller100's truth, my truth, and mimesis's truth.
@_mimesis_ agrees with (drmiller100's truth? unknown), (my truth? unknown), and mimesis's truth.

It's *literally* math.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> CRAZY ALERT CHOO CHOO!!! :crazy: Let me demonstrate a HOLY TRUTH TRAIN! And the *inclusive* nature of it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But that's for instance the difference between faith as a Holy Concept, and the virtue of Courage. Coeur="heart"


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> But that's for instance the difference between faith and courage. Coeur="heart"


 I don't see the difference.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> I don't see the difference.


Counterphobic =/= Courage =/= Faith


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> Counterphobic =/= Courage =/= Faith


 Yeah, I think that's the problem you're supposed to solve. I'm not a type six, sorry. I'm not grounded in type seven, and type five is going to be very different in me than what is in other people, and, I don't know what sixes do (although I think it would be beneficial for *all* head triad people to figure out what sixes do). Sorry.

For eights, we get lust/counter-lust. Yeah, I've had that problem before. It _really_ did feel like going to type-five for me, and it's bad going there from eight. Man, I just hated the world, like I wasn't able to discharge my anger quickly enough, and the rest _just seethed_ under my skin and it felt like a shitty version of type one's defenses (7->1 disintegration). Apparently sometimes eights start having an inkling of an idea that maybe they're too extreme at times, and so they swing the COMPLETE opposite, and do counter-lust. But when you started off with a vice, a _counter_-vice, is still a vice, it's just changed directions in your awareness. Whether I lust or counter-lust doesn't matter. As long as _either_ of them is true, I'm going to be in the eight downward five 8->5 direction, and that's bad. 7->5 much good instead. And since I meet the basic requirement of believing in innocence, I get 8->2.

So apparently the difference in shame and guilt is that shame is over _who you are_ and guilt is over _what you have done_. So my ego-self's identity ("who you are") is through my actions ("what you have done"), that means to me, shame and guilt means the same thing. LOL perfect, because type threes are _most_ out of touch with their shame, and that's in my tritype! I literally can't see the difference between shame and guilt. See? Blindspot.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Cir, Thank you.

I have a VERY strange relationship with shame. I fucking reject it. I refuse to be accept shame. I will not let a loved one accept shame, I will crush someone who tries to shame me when I am not feeling benevolent. 

I was shamed a lot as a kid. I don't like it, and I won't tolerate it, and I am REALLY careful to examine me to try not to shame others. Shame is powerful, and devastating, but nothing is worth adding shame to the world. 

I have guilt, and I try pretty hard to learn from my guilt, and I use the fourth agreement to forgive myself out of guilt. 

Shame is who you are, and is bullshit. Guilt is what you did to someone, and there are lessons from it.

Oh. the thank you part. I did not know 3 is affiliated with shame, and has issues with shame. Tell me more please.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> It was a double entendre. Value it true or false whatever you like.


You want sex with me? The subject matter in this thread is complicated and esoteric enough I do not desire to look for hidden meanings. 
I am comfortable with straight forward comments and opinions in this thread. I am but a simple man. 


a word or expression that can be understood in two different ways with one way usually referring to sex


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> Cir, Thank you.
> 
> I have a VERY strange relationship with shame. I fucking reject it. I refuse to be accept shame. I will not let a loved one accept shame, I will crush someone who tries to shame me when I am not feeling benevolent.
> 
> ...


 I don't _believe_ in shame. And when people tried that in real life, as far as I could remember, I told them to go fuck themselves. It's like, excuse me, I have the right to be whoever I want and do whatever I want, *provided that I'm not hurting anyone*, and it's difficult to do that if I prefer being alone all the time! Sometimes I indulge in free vengeance (from being attacked by others, but I'm ignoring it), especially since I know the price of anger. Like for example! My boyfriend's mother, as long as she's still crazy and getting all "under the skin anger" for the rest of her life, and since she's in poor health... won't be blood on my hands.

Does that mean I'm a terrible person? Yeah? Do I care? No. I'll probably grow out if it.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> But that's for instance the difference between faith as a Holy Concept, and the virtue of Courage. Coeur="heart"


 Think there's an edit. When *I* experienced Holy Faith, I also had *Holy Love* too. In order to me to Holy Love, I had to get in touch with my heart. The physical feeling of this sensation was _through my chest_ (and lots of crying). Holy Love immediately unlocked Holy Truth for me.

So that word you used in the other thread: sovereignty. What triggered me was the realization that I love, and no one can take that away from me. Maybe the hint is in the name?

If you are able to experience the Holy Idea, you will have a *much* more consistent connection with your virtue.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

[No message]


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I wasn't talking about you, hun.
> 
> But if you insist, having courage doesn't make someone a 6 and neither does believing in Innocence makes one an 8 integrating to 2. The virtue is different from a believe, though you may have courage because you believe in something. But you don't believe in Courage, Equanimity, Humility, Non-Attachment or Serenity.


You are trolling, being derogatory, and it is not your place to determine what someone else believes. For you to even attempt it certifies you do not understand or grok anything we are talking about. 

Desist. 

Cir, can you feel the difference in energy? Can you feel how this person judges you, and finds your truth invalid? 

Can you feel how your and my discussion and other posters on this thread were ACCEPTING and CELEBRATING differences in nuances, and happy for each other as we bounced ideas off each other without judgement? 

mime does not understand what we are talking about, yet knows oh so much more. he does not need to listen to this ephemeral discussion as he already knows the one truth, the one path, the one right way, the way he found and knows.

what he speaks of is a shadow of the truth, the love, the holy ideals. 

he is a minister here to make sure we don't stray from his one true path.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> I having courage doesn't make someone a 6 .



For an 8, courage is maintaining vulnerability.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> I wasn't talking about you, hun. @_cir_





drmiller100 said:


> You want sex with me? The subject matter in this thread is complicated and esoteric enough I do not desire to look for hidden meanings.
> I am comfortable with straight forward comments and opinions in this thread. I am but a simple man.


I agree with @drmiller100, please state what you mean. We don't read minds. Since *both* drmiller100 and I are trying to be helpful in good faith, we don't appreciate you trying to pick a fight. If you *refuse to respect* the seriousness of this conversation, then please leave.



> But *you* don't believe in Courage, Equanimity, Humility, Non-Attachment or Serenity.


 Holy Truth violation. Just because *you* can't doesn't mean *I* don't. Perhaps you should "remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt".


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> Think there's an edit. When *I* experienced Holy Faith, I also had *Holy Love* too. In order to me to Holy Love, I had to get in touch with my heart. The physical feeling of this sensation was _through my chest_ (and lots of crying). Holy Love immediately unlocked Holy Truth for me.
> 
> So that word you used in the other thread: sovereignty. What triggered me was the realization that I love, and no one can take that away from me. Maybe the hint is in the name?
> 
> If you are able to experience the Holy Idea, you will have a *much* more consistent connection with your virtue.


I think Holy Love is more related with love for oneself, and to reconcile opposites, that to love another by loving yourself. (though there is a relation there with Holy Truth, and perhaps for 8, to surrender to Love)

It's if you will different from the love for another, and compassion that is involved with 5, and avarice. (withdraw out of fear of inner depletion)

Having said that, it's great you had that feeling!


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> You are trolling, being derogatory, and it is not your place to determine what someone else believes. For you to even attempt it certifies you do not understand or grok anything we are talking about.
> 
> Desist.
> 
> ...


 Physical intelligence. Some people are still too stuck inside their head to get it. Which is a shame, since I'm projecting my selfishness into mimesis, and would thought that he would have a genuine desire to understand the type nine, since it's probably in the path of his integration, and if I were a selfish prick, I'd still want to grow and be happy.

Damn.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> I think Holy Love is more related with love for oneself, and to reconcile opposites, that to love another by loving yourself.


 Yeah. I agree. Were we agreeing?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> You are trolling, being derogatory, and it is not your place to determine what someone else believes. For you to even attempt it certifies you do not understand or grok anything we are talking about.
> 
> Desist.
> 
> ...


Me trolling? Now, that I call a personal affront. Where did you see me demonize anyone?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> Yeah. I agree. Were we agreeing?


Yeah, I guess it could work both ways.

Though I believe there is a danger for 9 (sx) to forget about himself and become dependent or dissociate. In other words loving oneself depending on being loved or having someone to love.

Again to make clear, I only discuss personality-type in itself, not the person, you or me or doc.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

> In other words loving oneself depending on being loved or having someone to love.


 That, by definition, is the negation of Holy Love.


mimesis said:


> Though I believe there is a danger for 9 (sx) to forget about himself and become dependent or dissociate.


 So you believe there is a danger for nine to operate as under the negation of Holy Love. You're stating definitions, the subtype is irrelevant, and I'm not sure what your point is.



> Again to make clear, I only discuss personality-type in itself, *not the person, you or me or doc*.


 Then please make it clearer than this:


> _I wasn't talking about you, hun. _*@cir*
> 
> _But if you insist_


 Because when you mention *my name*, I interpret it as this:


> Now, that I call a *personal affront*. Where did you see me demonize anyone?


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> That, by definition, is the negation of Holy Love. So you believe there is a danger for nine to operate as under the negation of Holy Love. You're stating definitions, the subtype is irrelevant, and I'm not sure what your point is.
> 
> Then please make it clearer than this: Because when you mention *my name*, I interpret it as this:


No I just used Holy Faith as an example. I wasn't talking about you.

I addressed that in response, because you insisted on explaining a type by explaining yourself. 

That the opposite of trying to understand yourself from understanding a type.

And with regard to subtype, that's what I read about sx9 (sx, one on one > love, but don't know how this plays out for so or sp, from what I've read).


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

cir said:


> Physical intelligence. Some people are still too stuck inside their head to get it. Which is a shame, since I'm projecting my selfishness into mimesis, and would thought that he would have a genuine desire to understand the type nine, since it's probably in the path of his integration, and if I were a selfish prick, I'd still want to grow and be happy.
> 
> Damn.


not your job. Let it go.

Your job is to find your way. I jumped his shit so you did not doubt yourself, which is a reach, and probably not a great idea.

but we are being vulnerable here worrying on something pretty esoteric. And it is good.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

mimesis said:


> No I just used Holy Faith as an example. I wasn't talking about you.
> 
> I addressed that in response, because you insisted on explaining a type by explaining yourself.
> 
> ...



i think we are talking about photosynthesis, and you are talking about sunshine on a beach. The integration of all types into the holy ideals, and groking them is pretty awesome.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> I addressed that in response, because you insisted on explaining a type by explaining yourself.


 That's called "giving an example".

Have you even looked at the history of the enneagram? Historically, people typed themselves by *oral tradition*, so if you reject the foundations, assumptions, premises, and definitions of the enneagram, then you will not benefit from it.


> That the opposite of trying to understand yourself from understanding a type.


 That's not an opposite. Since I am a member of type eight, understanding myself necessarily means better understanding of type eight. 

Has it ever occurred to you that some people have an understanding of themselves _before_ they discovered the enneagram, and the lessons of particular types were more fitting and obvious than others?


> And with regard to subtype, that's what I read about sx9 (sx, one on one > love, but don't know how this plays out for so or sp, from what I've read).


 But since it already meets the definition of a base type nine, the subtypes are irrelevant.


drmiller100 said:


> i think we are talking about photosynthesis, and you are talking about sunshine on a beach. The integration of all types into the holy ideals, and groking them is pretty awesome.


 Yeah, see? @_drmiller100_ gets it. In this thread, you've either been disagreeable for reasons that are baffling to us, or you've been stating definitions/the obvious, or you've stated the minimum requirements that one must have fulfilled/realized before they could even fully participate in this conversation.

So you stated the minimum requirement, but you didn't fulfill it:


drmiller100 said:


> it is not your place to determine what someone else believes. For you to even attempt it certifies you do not understand or grok anything we are talking about.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

drmiller100 said:


> not your job. Let it go.
> 
> Your job is to find your way. I jumped his shit so you did not doubt yourself, which is a reach, and probably not a great idea.
> 
> but we are being vulnerable here worrying on something pretty esoteric. And it is good.


 But the enneagram says the more I get hurt, the stronger I become! How do I do that if I'm too confused to get hurt?

*Happiny hurts herself in confusion*  Somehow, I don't think that's it lol


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

drmiller100 said:


> i think we are talking about photosynthesis, and you are talking about sunshine on a beach. The integration of all types into the holy ideals, and groking them is pretty awesome.


Well, don't mind me then. Like I said, you don't have to buy it.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> That's called "giving an example".
> 
> Have you even looked at the history of the enneagram? Historically, people typed themselves by *oral tradition*, so if you reject the foundations, assumptions, premises, and definitions of the enneagram, then you will not benefit from it.
> That's not an opposite. Since I am a member of type eight, understanding myself necessarily means better understanding of type eight.
> ...


Okay, see it this way. You identify with type by being personally attached. Then every disagreement is by virtue of simply disagreeing a personal affront or rejection. I don't want to get into those kind of discussions. If you disagree with me, fine. You guys respond as being stung by a bee, you need to put yourself in front. 

Since you agree with each other, so fondly, I'll just leave you two confirm one another and won't spoil your little bonfire. Because really, I don't mind if you do. I'm not attached to certainty or truth.

Ciao.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

mimesis said:


> Since you agree with each other, so fondly, I'll just leave you two confirm one another and won't spoil your little party. Because really, I don't mind if you do. I'm not attached to certainty or truth.
> 
> Ciao.


 I'm glad we can come to an understanding. :happy: We appreciate it. Thanks!


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

cir said:


> I'm glad we can come to an understanding. :happy: We appreciate it. Thanks!


"We", again. Aren't 8s "rugged individuals"? :tongue: 

Never mind. Cause I don't. Just giving some feedback.


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

Speaking of vice/counter-vice. I think it's hilarious that in a type one:


vice: reaction-formation (anger conversion)
counter-vice: counter-reaction-formation (anger conversion in the other direction)
But counter-reaction-formation is still reaction-formation. It _looks_ like it's saying e[SUP]iπ[/SUP] = e[SUP]*-*iπ[/SUP] = -1 to me.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

@cir

Wow, the last two pages were so weird. I was just going to mention it seems like you've given the holy ideas a lot of thought. I don't quite share your enthusiasm here, but as others have said, that is definitely your personal truth here. Thanks for your extended reply; I may get into the holy ideas later. *needs book*


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> @_cir_
> 
> Wow, the last two pages were so weird. I was just going to mention it seems like you've given the holy ideas a lot of thought. I don't quite share your enthusiasm here, but as others have said, that is definitely your personal truth here. Thanks for your extended reply; I may get into the holy ideas later. *needs book*


 Yeah, I agree. I'm going to call it a "live demonstration". The Holy Truth, by definition of "There exists", _must_ necessarily be inclusive. My *obsession*/_sensitivity_ to the Holy Truth should be a glaring red sign to people I'm a type eight. Fuck, it's a glaring sign that I'm (almost) just like my dad... (_ugh_)

Logicomix is a great (comic) book!


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

cir said:


> Yeah, I agree. I'm going to call it a "live demonstration". The Holy Truth, by definition of "There exists", _must_ necessarily be inclusive. My *obsession*/_sensitivity_ to the Holy Truth should be a glaring red sign to people I'm a type eight. Fuck, it's a glaring sign that I'm (almost) just like my dad... (_ugh_)


You know, something sad about me is that I seem to be my mother and father in equal parts, despite being absurdly different from both. Like if you combine red and blue, you get purple, except it's a totally new hue. Is your dad an 8?



> Logicomix is a great (comic) book!


D'awww, I only read non fiction.


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## mimesis (Apr 10, 2012)

[No message]


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## cir (Oct 4, 2013)

The Typeless Wonder said:


> You know, something sad about me is that I seem to be my mother and father in equal parts, despite being absurdly different from both. Like if you combine red and blue, you get purple, except it's a totally new hue. Is your dad an 8?
> 
> 
> D'awww, I only read non fiction.


 Yup! My dad's an 8w9, and the wings basically explain the contrasting viewpoints. But Logicomix is based in real life!

[HR][/HR]


mimesis said:


> Okay, since you also mentioned it in the other thread, seeing reaction-formation (or One) as 'conversion' of anger.


 May I remind you: 


mimesis said:


> Since you agree with each other, so fondly, I'll just leave you two confirm one another and won't spoil your little bonfire. Because really, I don't mind if you do. I'm not attached to certainty or truth.
> 
> Ciao.


 I'm not going to entertain your nitpicking. Please leave.


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