# Archetypal subtypes examples.



## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

Entropic said:


> Ichigo is not a 6, at least not the current portrayal of his character, which I daresay is much more relevant given that this how he is _now_, as opposed to how he used to be. Very clearly a sp/sx 4w5. Can't find a good video so tl;dr either you catch up with the story or you won't but it's bad using Ichigo as an example of a type archetype when he has changed so much in terms of characterization. He currently is far more likely to be something 496 than a 6. Far more defined by his sense of image and emotional reality than he is anxiety.
> 
> I also know that you think Barbossa is a good example of sx 8 but I think he is actually a very poor choice and does not at all represent type 8 well, if at all. He may represent _your idea_ of the type, but he does not imo, actually represent the type. Barbossa is not even necessarily an 8.


Man it's been a while since I watched Bleach, but I always thought Ichigo seemed like a 6. I think Mana got it right. I left off at the end of the Aizen arc, so maybe he's totally different later on, but he comes across as being duty driven, a defender, mopey or angsty a lot, counter compliant, basically 6 themes. Doesn't have the envy or the preciousness of 4s. Compare him to a guy like Yumichika Ayasegawa (social 4).


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Nice stuff, guys. I'll take more of a look when I have time.
@_Swordsman of Mana_, most seem to think Depp is 4w5 sx/sp. I agree that he seems more 5 though (I don't really trust the main enneagram stuff especially their celeb typings), I remember first seeing that looney french couple in the main enneagram facebook group say sx 5 for him, along with Angelina Jolie who most see as fours.

Did you ditch the 7 for 2 after all? Where are you currently sitting at enneagram-wise.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Ollyx2OxenFree said:


> Nice stuff, guys. I'll take more of a look when I have time.
> @_Swordsman of Mana_, most seem to think Depp is 4w5 sx/sp. I agree that he seems more 5 though (I don't really trust the main enneagram stuff especially their celeb typings), I remember first seeing that looney french couple in the main enneagram facebook group say sx 5 for him, along with Angelina Jolie who most see as fours.


well, that's not as bad as people seeing Mother Teresa as a 2 LMAO :laughing:



> Did you ditch the 7 for 2 after all? Where are you currently sitting at enneagram-wise.


I'm unsure of my type at the moment =P


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

tresemme said:


> Man it's been a while since I watched Bleach, but I always thought Ichigo seemed like a 6. I think Mana got it right. I left off at the end of the Aizen arc, so maybe he's totally different later on, but he comes across as being duty driven, a defender, mopey or angsty a lot, counter compliant, basically 6 themes. Doesn't have the envy or the preciousness of 4s. *Compare him to a guy like Yumichika Ayasegawa (social 4).*


close. Sexual 4 (less shame/outcast more "how dare you peasant! I am nobility!". he is haughty, elitist and vain and wants to express his feelings of superiority)


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## 0+n*1 (Sep 20, 2013)

Sexual 6: Ladd Russo from Baccano (the guy with the white suit)


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> well, that's not as bad as people seeing Mother Teresa as a 2 LMAO


Haha, yeah I think sx 5 is better for those two though. Depp doesn't seem sx 4 but he does seem sx and social last and sx/sp is a more 4ish stacking. That couple has Theresa at social 2 also. I can see social 7 although the difference is that 7s are self-referential and 2s more other focused even if they're more like seducers more than helpers. They title 2 as narcissistic flattery or egocentric generosity which is interesting since 7s are pegged narcissistic by Naranjo. Idk enough about Theresa though but she did seduce the world (although so 7s do a bit, too).





> I'm unsure of my type at the moment =P


Haha, that's cool. I found mine recently after dabbling for a while and so much stuff clicked. You have like 9 options if your stacking is correct. I wonder how much wings and secondary instincts play into effect though? And then the damn tritypes. The subtypes are a bit extreme, in a sense, but they better differentiate the types from others as well as intratype differences. I like them in an archetypal sense but maybe not all fit the bill? I know a sexual 4 and social 4 that fit them perfectly though and I fit social 7 pretty damn well myself.


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Oooooh, I think I got a social 7 example. I wanted Onizuka to be one but he probably better fits social 8 'gang leader' despite his social idealism and happy-go-lucky nature. Guess that's his wing. 

Vash The Stampede. Idealist, utopian, hippie-like. Sacrifices himself all the time and has the scars to prove it. Do-Gooder. Pure. Still fun-loving as a 7.





Hey, how about Kenshin? Probably not So 7? Maybe 9? Trying to take into account his personality when he was younger.


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Sexual One: Light Yagami. Zealous and righteous. Determined to rid the world of the corrupt through killing all the rotten people.





Skip to 16:35 to hear him say this and then proceed to take out criminals zealously. 
"I want the world to know of my existence. That there's someone out there passing righteous judgement on the wicked."


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Social 8: Onizuka Eikichi. The antisocial social 8. Tough Ex-Gang leader and karate captain who's trying to become great. "Wherever I go, people will look at me and say 'What a Great man!'". Decides to become the greatest teacher ever and slowly becomes trusted by the students of a problem class in the school. At times, succumbs to antisocial and violent methods but has the students' best interests at heart. Is looked up to by many students and others who witness his benevolence. 





(Damn, wanted more well known characters but succumbing to anime ones).


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Sexual Four: Sakuragi Hanamichi from Slam Dunk. He's shameless, intense, hateful, competitive, arrogant, angry with envy, aggressive, misunderstood genius (hell, throughout the series he refers to himself as a genius despite sucking in the beginning), driven by love to become the best, hates whatever or whomever triggers inferior feelings in himself and so on. 





Him after getting rejected 50 times, the 50th time because the chick liked someone from the basketball team:

"Screw this stupid 'Oda-kun, from the basketball team.' I bet he's boring as hell. I hate basketball! It's already Spring outside, but my heart remains frozen in winter..."

Sx 4 diminishing others to make themselves feel better. VERY sure that he's a great example of sexual 4. Love him.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Ollyx2OxenFree
nooo
Light is a wannabe 1. he doesn't actually give much of a damn about justice. he gives a "good" impression on the outside, but on the inside, he is conceited, cunning, manipulative, deceitful and easily lies and distorts to get what he wants. I think he is a sociopathic Social 3 personally

Kenshin as in Rurouni Kenshin? probably Social 9


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Ollyx2OxenFree_
> nooo
> Light is a wannabe 1. he doesn't actually give much of a damn about justice. he gives a "good" impression on the outside, but on the inside, he is conceited, cunning, manipulative, deceitful and easily lies and distorts to get what he wants. I think he is a sociopathic Social 3 personally
> 
> Kenshin as in Rurouni Kenshin? probably Social 9


Social 3: "*Politician (prestige):* High-profile public image & social status brings recognition & the sense of “being somebody.” Like to play a public role, take the lead in social groups, look the part they’re playing. Want to be the leader, not help the leader (unlike 2s). Dislike being upstaged; are secretly hurt by it but don’t let on." 

Also has Valedictorian and head of the class under some roles which he fits.

I guess I could see that but idk. The sexual 1 is the freest 1 though, more into reforming than being perfect or perfectionistic which can be reforming the world especially if sx/so. Unhealthy 1s can be punitive and he was undoubtedly unhealthy but perhaps the situation he was put into (finding the death note) made him seem 1-like as opposed to naturally being one? Haven't watched it in over 5 years so not sure with him.

I can agree with Kenshin but couldn't tell since I heard social 7s can look like social 9s.


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## Dalton (Jun 10, 2013)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Light is a wannabe 1. he doesn't actually give much of a damn about justice. he gives a "good" impression on the outside, but on the inside, he is conceited, cunning, manipulative, deceitful and easily lies and distorts to get what he wants. I think he is a sociopathic Social 3 personally


The writer of Death Note isn't a Sexual subtype. They give a shallow explanation of Light's personality. Oh look, he's smart. Oh look, he's the perfect student. Oh look, he hates people who are rude and disgusting. So really, there's an argument for both 1 & 3, because he's a relatively flat character, _not_ a real human. _If_ he's a 1, Sexual sounds about right, but there is a disappointing lack of depth which would really bring that to life. Death Note is more about the plot than the character, I'd say.

Definitely a sociopath. Loses his way (i.e. principles) easily. Lacks superego and is enormously self-assured, so I'll agree and say NOT a type 1.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Ollyx2OxenFree
imo, different subtypes of 7 correlate with completely different MBTI types
*Self Preservation: *ExTP (Sp/Sx could be xNTJ)
*Social:* ExFJ, INFJ
*Sexual:* ExFP


anyway, time for round two =)

Social 1: Samurai Jack

* *













Self Preservation 1: Death The Kid (Soul Eater)

* *













Sexual 1: Saito Hajime (Rurouni Kenshin)

* *


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Self Preservation 2: Veruca Salt (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory)

* *













Social 2: Shogo Amakusa (Rurouni Kenshin)

* *













Sexual 2: Katherine Pierce (Vampire Diaries)

* *


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Social 3: Arnold Schwarzenegger

* *













Self Preservation 3: Aoshi Shinomori (Rurouni Kenshin)

* *













Sexual 3: Selena Gomez

* *


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Social 4: Grell (Black Butler)

* *













Self Preservation 4: Suzaku Kururugi (Code Geass)

* *













Sexual 4: Viserys Targaryen (Game of Thrones)

* *


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Social 5: Raine Sage (Tales of Symphonia)

* *













Self Preservation 5: Warren Buffet

* *













Sexual 5: Syaoran (Tsubasa Chronicles)

* *


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## He's a Superhero! (May 1, 2013)

Ollyx2OxenFree said:


> Sexual One: Light Yagami. Zealous and righteous. Determined to rid the world of the corrupt through killing all the rotten people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Self Preservation 6: Mihashi (Big Windup!)

* *













Social 6: Hannya (Rurouni Kenshin)

* *













Sexual 6: Kallen Kozaki (Code Geass)

* *


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Entropic


> You haven't been watching/reading Bleach very far. That's true up to the very first arc, and even so, those behaviors do not necessarily prove 6 either because behavior != type. I am not sure Ichigo is all that anxiety-driven as a person. If anything what often gets him into problems early on in the story is the fact that he's usually way too self-assured. Fyi, there is no such thing as the "Aizen arc" because Aizen is the primary antagonist throughout most of the story of Bleach.


insecurity (not necessarily anxiety) drives quite a bit of Ichigo's behavior. he is s tough guy with lots of bravado who needs to prove how strong and "don't give a fuck" he is because deep down he is scared, insecure and lacking in guidance. I can't speak for the later arcs, but I've watched up to ~episode 60, and he is VERY Sexual 6 there.
@ScarlettHayden
Galadriel is a much more confident, integrated Sexual 9 with a strong Sexual 1 wing which comes out when she scares Frodo :tongue:


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @Entropic
> 
> insecurity (not necessarily anxiety) drives quite a bit of Ichigo's behavior. he is s tough guy with lots of bravado who needs to prove how strong and "don't give a fuck" he is because deep down he is scared, insecure and lacking in guidance. I can't speak for the later arcs, but I've watched up to ~episode 60, and he is VERY Sexual 6 there.
> @ScarlettHayden
> Galadriel is a much more confident, integrated Sexual 9 with a strong Sexual 1 wing which comes out when she scares Frodo :tongue:


Insecurity does again not make a type 6. Insecurity is not unique to 6. Insecurity is an essentially human trait and anyone can experience themselves as insecure at any given point in time. The real question is whether Ichigo actually struggles from the existential anxiety that is defining of type 6. Here I may very well argue that Jon Snow who you think is a type 4, is a far better example of a type 6 for this reason because he actually perfectly demonstrates this. Jon Snow isn't struggling with insecurity in the sense of having poor self-esteem or any of the sort, but his worldview, the way he is oriented towards the world in general and how sees it, is strongly defined by an idea wherein he seems to think the world is truly a place where nothing can be known, hence the meme "you know nothing Jon Snow". Even the very fact and the reason Jon chooses to join the Nights Watch seems indicative of how the 6 may gravitate towards social structures that provide a strong sense of stability and thus also security. Not security in the sense of feeling insecure in a literal kind of way, but security in that it offers a stable worldview. One knows what to expect, what rules that are given, how to behave and act, where people's loyalties lie etc. This is the insecurity issue of type 6 feeling that these things can never truly be known.

And seeing how there are over 360 episodes of Bleach and over 500 chapters, I would urge to avoid using characters one has merely an early impression of, as that can be highly misleading of the character in question in addition to possibly causing confusion because people don't understand what you are actually referring to e.g. referring to different time stamps in the story where the character portrayals may vastly differ.


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## ScarlettHayden (Jun 8, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Galadriel is a much more confident, integrated Sexual 9 with a strong Sexual 1 wing which comes out when she scares Frodo :tongue:


Yes her 1 wing is very noticeable. I think maybe I might have briefly typed her 1 when watching the movie because of that, but she does hold the soft 9 demeanour. The integration is also a case in point, she's obviously a very healthy 9, hence the 3 confidence.


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

@Entropic

I dunno, I still see 6 themes. Mana said it well about him wanting to be stronger and putting on bravado. Type 6, sx-first especially, is typically linked to the strength and beauty poles. The clip you provided didn't help me see what you were getting at because it's in Japanese and I don't understand the language. As for flat stereotype archetype, I'm not sure what to say about that other than this is a shonen jump anime, and with these type of shows, characters are typically hero tropes, aka stereotypes. Perhaps he changed quite a bit later in the story, but does that negate everything about him prior? I also try not to type the characters solely on behavior, but what their entire focus is on and how they frame situations, the internal narrative that makes them who they are. Thematically, he doesn't display characteristics of envy, channeled through either of the sx, so, or sp instincts. He's not particularly melancholic either, but rather angsty, more a 6 calling card (perhaps angst is because of compliance and superego issues). What you describe about his image, also sounds more like roles he feels some urge to fulfill (6 again?). It doesn't come across to me like an issue of image as it relates to the image triad in the enneagram, but this particular point I'm not as confident about because I haven't followed to that particular moment in the series like you have. That's just my take on it. I realize everyone has their own approach to these things. Oh, and I think Jon Snow as a 6 is believable. 

I just have one question though. Is Orihime what a 6 typically looks like to you?


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Dalton said:


> :laughing: OMG :laughing:
> 
> Barbara Walters is the interviewer.
> Courtney Love (Sx 6?) is the interviewee.


Lol, thanks. I had it right the first time but edited, thinking I had it mixed up. Is this someone I should really know? 




Swordsman of Mana said:


> she is too damn DRY to be Sx dom (particularly Sx 8 as she's usually typed as. that's one of the most fucking ridiculous typings I've ever heard :laughing: )
> 
> what did you think of the other typings?


Wait, so we're typing the interviewing lady? :bored: There wasn't much talking on her part but my guess was social 1 but I guess social 3 could work. She just seemed stern, judgmental and rigid. Kobain's wife seemed sx to me. 

My bad, I'm taking my time looking at these. Noticed though that you had some black butler character as social 4. I havent finished the series and started it years ago but the video you used didn't convey social 4 well to me. Just Grell really into Sebastian, no emo "woe is me" stuff, self-abasement, shame, etc. Aside from that, these have been pretty good. You throw these out quick, I gotta step my subtyping game up.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

tresemme said:


> @Entropic
> 
> I dunno, I still see 6 themes.


Again, come back when you have actually caught up with the story. 



> Mana said it well about him wanting to be stronger and putting on bravado.


Behavior != type.



> Type 6, sx-first especially, is typically linked to the strength and beauty poles. The clip you provided didn't help me see what you were getting at because it's in Japanese and I don't understand the language.


You frankly don't need to understand what is being said. You need to merely observe his behavior and how he is acting in this episode to realize the behavior you are applying to him here is extremely inconsistent with how he appears in this episode. 



> As for flat stereotype archetype, I'm not sure what to say about that other than this is a shonen jump anime,


That is not a sound argument. Just because Bleach is published in Shonen Jump and may therefore initially have had or still to one degree or another, utilize storywritng tropes commonly found in shonen, it does not mean Bleach as a story cannot move beyond these tropes. Ichigo is not a flat character, far from. Ichigo is the most well-developed character out of the entire Bleach cast, but one must have at least read/watched all the way up to Deicide and Aizen's defeat in order to see this development fully realized. Arguing who Ichigo is before having done this is just a null argument and doesn't mean anything because before this, especially up until the Soul Society arc, Ichigo was an extremely flat character and represented a character archetype more than actually being a three-dimensional person. Therefore abscribing a specific enneagram type to Ichigo before this point is not very meaningful in my opinion, because we don't actually know what fears or motivations he possesses so the only thing we can go off is that he may steroetypically and behaviorally speaking, perhaps fit some steroetype idea of what type 6 is. 

However, as I already stated, this is a superficial and extremely shallow typing of Ichigo as a person. Not only does it in my opinion truly miss the point of who Ichigo really is as a character, but I also think it honestly makes type 6 an extreme disservice as well. I am in a relationship with a 6 and she is not this way and I am friends with another 6 who also happened to be sx first. Neither of them are the way Ichigo is depicted here. It is just not a good representation of type 6, sx 6 or not. It merely fits some stereotype idea people have of type 6 on this forum board but it does not actually represent the actual type 6. What some people here seem to think is sx 6 I just see as what is better represented by a low-intelligence ISxP behavior. Has nothing to do with 6-ness in itself in my opinion, outside of a very shallow and superficial reading where one tries to match outwards behavior in this way but again, behavior != type. Could be a multifold of reasons as why Ichigo behaves the way he does early on in the story and if anything it seems motivated by the loss of his mother which one could if so, make a much more reasonable argument towards type 8 than 6. 

Early on in the story Ichigo keeps stating how he desires to protect those who cannot protect themselves. He does not seem to protect out of a desire to overthrow or work against an established system because he happened to secretly see himself as some underdog whose purpose in life is to overthrow the system, but he seems to desire to protect because he cares for those who he sees as more vulnerable than himself. This could well be made into an argument for the projection of innocence that is typical for the type 8. I do not however see an argument for this being caused by a sense of existential anxiety. And before you counter this by saying that Ichigo often gets in troubles with the system yes, that is correct, but you cannot reasonably argue he does this because he genuinely enjoys rebelling against a system he fears is going to control him. In the case of his school for example, he is seen as an outcast because of his hair color, something he has absolutely no power to do anything about and in the case of going against the Soul Society, he does so because he cares about saving Rukia. Not every act against the system is an act out of fear of being controlled by it. 



> and with these type of shows, characters are typically hero tropes, aka stereotypes.


Already covered this. Just because a character may start out as a trope it does not mean the character can develop beyond the trope. 



> Perhaps he changed quite a bit later in the story, but does that negate everything about him prior?


In my opinion yes. 



> I also try not to type the characters solely on behavior, but what their entire focus is on and how they frame situations, the internal narrative that makes them who they are.


The problem is that does Ichigo even at this point even have a narrative? He's so one-dimensional that he really doesn't. 



> Thematically, he doesn't display characteristics of envy, channeled through either of the sx, so, or sp instincts. He's not particularly melancholic either, but rather angsty, more a 6 calling card (perhaps angst is because of compliance and superego issues).


I don't think any of these things point towards type 6 per se. 6 isn't the only type that can be angsty. In the story he's supposed to be a 15-year-old who is leading a highly dissatisfying life. I think most people in that situation would _be_ angsty. You are right, he does not manifest envy but as I already pointed out, does he manifest existential anxiety? I can't say he does that _either_. 



> What you describe about his image, also sounds more like roles he feels some urge to fulfill (6 again?).


No. Not outside of what he personally sees as his actually true and genuine identity. 



> It doesn't come across to me like an issue of image as it relates to the image triad in the enneagram, but this particular point I'm not as confident about because I haven't followed to that particular moment in the series like you have. That's just my take on it. I realize everyone has their own approach to these things. Oh, and I think Jon Snow as a 6 is believable.


If I would have to tritype Ichigo I'd say he's a 496 sp/sx but that's aside the point, I think. 6 mostly because behaviorally speaking, it's what fits him the best at this point in the story. Not necessarily because he seems overly motivated by these issues though. 



> I just have one question though. Is Orihime what a 6 typically looks like to you?


Typical? No. I would say Jon Snow is a better example of it, mostly because we get such a good insight into his mind where he definitely thematically fits type 6 very well, much better than type 4. Behaviorally however, I would say Orihime is a better example of a 6 because we actually see that she has issues with security, often struggles with a feeling of needing to accomplish or achieve in order to become autonomous (line to 3) while at the same time secretly seeming to desire to do nothing (soul child of 9).


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Oh, good point @_Entropic_ about behavior =/= type. While that's obvious, I may have not always had that in mind with some typings especially since Naranjo's subtype descriptions are basically traits. Of the typings I posted though, I still think Sp 1 for Rabbit and Sx 4 for Hanamichi fits, subtype behavior-wise as well as with their motivations. I watched some of the video earlier but it was long, I'll try to watch more to see the sx 1 for dude.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Ollyx2OxenFree said:


> Oh, good point @_Entropic_ about behavior =/= type. While that's obvious, I may have not always had that in mind with some typings especially since Naranjo's subtype descriptions are basically traits. Of the typings I posted though, I still think Sp 1 for Rabbit and Sx 4 for Hanamichi fits, subtype behavior-wise as well as with their motivations. I watched some of the video earlier but it was long, I'll try to watch more to see the sx for dude.


The problem is that subtypes are often described by their behavior rather than by their respective motivations. I mean, I agree with the Rabbit being a 1 but not so much because of his behavior in itself but because his behavior does seem to indicate issues pertaining to the frustration triad. That Rabbit is a highly frustrated type is very clearly obvious, and that Rabbit often seems to try repress his frustrations caused by his environment is also very obvious. 

So it's a fine line to walk where one can meaningfully link behavior to their respective motivations one seems to think they are indicative of. See my point above about Bleach where I added some additional paragraphs to argue the case for 8 rather than 6 and why just looking at behavior without looking at the underlying cause can lead to serious mistypings.

And I want to clarify that I do not think Ichigo at that point in the story is actually meaningfully typable, but for the sake of clarity, I don't think one should stereotype certain behaviors by pigeonholing it to a specific type like in the case of Light Yagami. Yeah, he's zealous, yeah, he wants to reform society but the one billion question: is he motivated by holy perfection and does he seem to suffer from an internalized frustration due to constantly repressing his anger and always reforming his own behavior? Not really. And you can't just chalk that up to sx 1 being the counter-type because it removes the meaning of what type 1 really is about if any person can be an sx 1 if they superficially seem to manifest certain behaviors associated as buzzwords with the type without actually adhering to the underlying type structure that goes with it. Light is in my mind, a much better example of a type 7 (or less plausibly 3), because of how unaware Light truly is of his own imperfections. See, this is actually a key difference between say, 7 and 1: 7 denies, 1 reforms. Light is denying his flaws, he does not try to reform them. I may also make an argument for him being sx/so but eh, whatever. I agree with Dalton that Light is not very typable because as was said, Death Note is plot-driven, not character-driven. Furthermore, Light being the antagonist of the story (sorta), means he doesn't really develop much as a character either but remains largely the same which means even less ability to tell what motivates him.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Entropic said:


> Insecurity does again not a type 6 make. Insecurity is not unique to 6. Insecurity is an essentially human trait and anyone can experience themselves as insecure at any given point in time. The real question is whether Ichigo actually struggles from the existential anxiety that is defining of type 6. Here I may very well argue that Jon Snow who you think is a type 4, is a far better example of a type 6 for this reason because he actually perfectly demonstrates this. Jon Snow isn't struggling with insecurity in the sense of having poor self-esteem or any of the sort, but his worldview, the way he is oriented towards the world in general and how sees it, is strongly defined by an idea wherein he seems to think the world is truly a place where nothing can be known, hence the meme "you know nothing Jon Snow". Even the very fact and the reason Jon chooses to join the Nights Watch seems indicative of how the 6 may gravitate towards social structures that provide a strong sense of stability and thus also security. Not security in the sense of feeling insecure in a literal kind of way, but security in that it offers a stable worldview. One knows what to expect, what rules that are given, how to behave and act, where people's loyalties lie etc. This is the insecurity issue of type 6 feeling that these things can never truly be known.
> 
> And seeing how there are over 360 episodes of Bleach and over 500 chapters, I would urge to avoid using characters one has merely an early impression of, as that can be highly misleading of the character in question in addition to possibly causing confusion because people don't understand what you are actually referring to e.g. referring to different time stamps in the story where the character portrayals may vastly differ.


I never said he is a 6 just because he has insecurity (every type is insecure at times, especially teens), rather because proving that he is not insecure is the central neurosis of his character. he is "insecure about the fact that he is insecure", and this drives him to put up a tough front and charge at his fears recklessly. classic Sexual 6


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## Golden Rose (Jun 5, 2014)

@Swordsman of Mana

What makes you say that Sansa Stark is a 3 rather than a 2? I'm curious.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Karma said:


> @Swordsman of Mana
> What makes you say that Sansa Stark is a 3 rather than a 2? I'm curious.


she is more vanity (living for the eyes of others) rather than pride (inflated sense of self). the Sexual 3 is the 2-ish 3 (they tend to be seductive, pleasing to the eye), but it is also a 9-ish, with a tendency to smile and pretend nothing is wrong in the face of conflict. 2 is a more assertive character in such an instance. 

a good friend of mine who is a Sexual 3 (as well as an Enneagram coach) always smiles or adds in a :happy: whenever he is about to say anything that disagrees with me because he is very sensitive to negative energy, which I've noticed is that case with most Sexual 3s (they are the most delicate of the 3s)


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

tons of mistypes in this thread


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> tons of mistypes in this thread


ok, which ones?


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## DomNapoleon (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Social 2: Ash Ketchum (Pokemon)


Social 7. 
He is independent, freedom lover, anti-rules. He is not pride oriented, neither he takes pride in taking care of other people or making others dependent on him. 





> Self Preservation 4: Jon Snow (Game of Thrones)


Social 4. 
He is way too much focused in doing the right thing - strong connection to 1. He is also painfully aware of him being a bastard, and he kinda plays the role of ''ugly duckling'' in the series, so I would go with social 4 to him. 





> Social 4: Mulan (Mulan)


Agreed. 





> Sexual 5: Johnny Depp


From what I've seen Johnny Depp is a 4. 





> Self Preservation 7: Saul Goodman (Breaking Bad)


Could be.





> Sexual 7: Beth (The Walking Dead)
> 
> * *


I am not sure of her type, but I bet sexual 7 isn't the best fit. 





> Social 7: Mother Teresa


LOL at this. She was a superego core. My guess is 1w2 after I read one of @Naqsh posts about her. 





> Sexual 8: Captain Barbossa (Pirates of the Carribean)


I dunno his type, but sexual 8? lol




> Social 8: Esmeralda (The Hunchback of Notre Dame)


Social or Sexual 2w3. 





Ollyx2OxenFree said:


> Sexual One: Light Yagami. Zealous and righteous. *Determined to rid the world of the corrupt through killing all the rotten people.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Light Yagami is so Social dominant just read what you wrote. 





Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_Ollyx2OxenFree_
> nooo
> Light is a wannabe 1. *he doesn't actually give much of a damn about justice.* he gives a "good" impression on the outside, but on the inside, he is conceited, cunning, manipulative, deceitful and easily lies and distorts to get what he wants. I think he is a sociopathic Social 3 personally
> 
> Kenshin as in Rurouni Kenshin? probably Social 9



''*I am justice*'' - Light Yagami. 





> Sexual 4: Viserys Targaryen (Game of Thrones)


He is ID type. 





> Sexual 9: Galadriel (Lord of the Rings)


Social 1st. 




> Sexual 3: Sansa Stark


3? -__-





> Sexual 5: Bella Swan (Twlight)


She is not a 5 :laughing: 4 is a better fitting for her.


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## Ollyx2OxenFree (Feb 2, 2012)

Phoenix_Rebirth said:


> Social 7.
> He is independent, freedom lover, anti-rules. He is not pride oriented, neither he takes pride in taking care of other people or making others dependent on him.
> 
> From what I've seen Johnny Depp is a 4.
> ...


2s are also quite independent, that's sort of where their pride can come from. Being other-focused and acting as if they have no needs or as if the others' needs are more important than their own. Not sure if he's social 7 or 2 but just sayin. Haven't seen Pokemon for a while. Let's see how Ash's character is described though. 


* *




One particular characteristic about Ash that has not changed over the course of the series, aside from his determination and his passion for raising and training Pokémon, is that he is *incredibly selfless*. *He will often (and this has happened for just about every one of his Pokémon) go to extraordinary lengths to earn a Pokémon's trust and respect*; *and he will often go out of his way to better understand a Pokémon that he sees as troubled.* He is also very fair-minded and trusting, a true testament to his good-natured character.
Ash is shown to have a strong sense of justice, especially when it comes to Pokémon. *If a Pokémon is in trouble he will go out of his way to help them, even if he has no prior connection to them.* If they are the cause of trouble, he will stop them, and then try to understand them, with almost all such occasions being a case of the Pokémon (or their trainer or friend(s)) having a problem which can't be resolved normally. In those cases, *he will selflessly volunteer to help them*. Should the problem be caused by a person, such as a Team Rocket, Pokémon thieves, hunters or poachers, Ash resolves to do anything in his power to stop them.
Despite this, and previous dealings with evil organizations, *Ash has retained remarkably optimistic and naïve outlook*, a trait his companions seem to share. *He is quick to praise* and has an unshakable trust in both his Pokémon and his friends. He is unable to see through the disguises of the Team Rocket trio, and will try to see the best in everyone and everything. An example would be Team Rocket's frequent 'sudden appearance' that coincidentally coincides with their needs at that time, and Ash never questioning it until it is too late. Another example would be how he easily praises Clemont for his 'genius' inventions, no matter their high failure rate, and the near inevitable explosion, or Cilan for his other varied 'connoisseur abilities,' even if they are ridiculous. Furthermore, even though almost all of his friends have large dreams, Ash fully supports them and has never doubted their ability to accomplish them, possibly due to his own highly ambitious goal. He also encourages Pokémon to do the best they can, even if they aren't his own, and has even helped train wild Pokémon.
In the Original series, though Ash actively took part in battles, he was rarely seen independently training his Pokémon. However, since theAdvanced Generation series, Ash is shown to train more noticeably, having mock battles with his friends and focusing on moves, techniques and strategies with his Pokémon. A noticeable trait is his willingness to learn from both his victories and defeats in battle. For example, after winning in a Gym battle against Winona in a _Sky High Gym Battle!_ and witnessing her Pokémon's powerful Aerial Ace, Ash was motivated to have hisSwellow learn it, which it did during _Pokéblock, Stock, and Berry_ and _Lessons in Lilycove!_. Even after he lost a battle, and witnessing a powerfulIce Punch, as seen in _Short and To the Punch!_, Ash was inspired to teach his Buizel it. He even believes in using serious battles as an opportunity to help train the move, even if he loses, like during the Double Battle in _What You Seed is What You Get_, when he was trying to teachTreecko Bullet Seed.
In the beginning, Ash *had a bit of an inferiority complex*, as well as some form of *personal pride*, most likely stemming from his rivalry with Gary Oak. As a result, he had some bad habits, *like shamelessly boasting his own skill if he were ever on a winning streak, and easily getting mad if he were personally insulted*, as seen in _The Path to the Pokémon League_. Ash even used to call foul on things that were perfectly legal, like Giselle'sCubone using a bone in _The School of Hard Knocks_, or Blaine's use of the lava in _Volcanic Panic_. He even locked himself up in his room and sulked after losing to Ritchie, though he got over it after being scolded by Misty in _Friends to the End_. Fortunately, during his journey, Ash has gotten over his complex and is now easily accepting of criticism to his own skill, though he still gets upset if his Pokémon is insulted or degraded. This was actually what lead to the source of conflict between Ash and Paul in the Diamond & Pearl series.
In most episodes of the anime, especially those during the Johto League saga, Ash befriends someone who will influence him and cause him to strive to become a better Trainer. Although he is not a dependent individual, he is still young and has learned to make his way relying on his friends, particularly the maternal skills of Brock. The honor of "best friend" is usually reserved for Pikachu but Ash has come to see his closest human friends in the same light over time; using the term for Misty and Brock in _Gotta Catch Ya Later!_ as well as May and Max in _Battling the Enemy Within_." 



Bolded some traits that could reinforce 2 but also some 7. Social 7s can seem 2ish too though. At the least, he does seem like a positive outlook type.


Regarding Johnny Depp, I'm sure we were both aware of what he's commonly typed as (sx/sp 4w5) but is that what you truly think yourself? I can definitely see him being sx/sp (which seems more 4ish) but not so much sexual 4, his energy is more 5-like too and I bet plenty of sexual 5s are typed as 4w5s since they are also romantics and seem less 5ish than the other 5s as the countertype. If you could explain what you see as 4ness in him, showing how his vice is envy as opposed to avarice, I'd be more open. I'd agree that he at least seems like he's part of the withdrawn triad but can't see sx 4 dominating his personality but then again, I've only seen a few interviews of him.

Yeah, I'm also not completely convinced that Mother Theresa was a social 7 even if she was a martyr but could somewhat see why SoM would think so. It can be hard differentiating social 7 and 2s at times.

Regarding Light, I typically find Sx/So more extreme and fiery in that way. Channeling sx into social. Like Hitler. If he was really a 1, sx/so 1 seems more likely than a social-first 1 but I'm not as confident in that typing anymore though. Any type can be a revolutionary but it's the sx/so who really try to change the fundamental structure of something and reshape it the way I see Light does. It is more reforming than the other stackings.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I never said he is a 6 just because he has insecurity (every type is insecure at times, especially teens), rather because proving that he is not insecure is the central neurosis of his character. he is "insecure about the fact that he is insecure", and this drives him to put up a tough front and charge at his fears recklessly. classic Sexual 6


How so? Can you point out a reasonable instance where he is showcasing an insecurity about insecurity (what does that even mean)?


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## tresemme (Jun 21, 2014)

Ollyx2OxenFree said:


> Regarding Johnny Depp, I'm sure we were both aware of what he's commonly typed as (sx/sp 4w5) but is that what you truly think yourself? I can definitely see him being sx/sp (which seems more 4ish) but not so much sexual 4, his energy is more 5-like too and I bet plenty of sexual 5s are typed as 4w5s since they are also romantics and seem less 5ish than the other 5s as the countertype. If you could explain what you see as 4ness in him, showing how his vice is envy as opposed to avarice, I'd be more open. I'd agree that he at least seems like he's part of the withdrawn triad but can't see sx 4 dominating his personality but then again, I've only seen a few interviews of him.[/FONT][/COLOR]


There's good reason for why people type him that way. He's a very image-laden person. It's like every word is carefully crafted and presented. In interviews he goes on to describe too much of himself in my opinion. He's very self revealing, but also has this affect where he'll sort of mythologize himself. One interview he talked about how he sees himself as this old guy everyday guy as he grows old...something about having a beer belly -- paraphrased. That type of thing is typical with 4s, that authentic vs. inauthentic quality, counter envy that people talk of. A 5, even an sx-5, don't seem as self revealing (avarice), and if they are, it comes across as really bizarre, sloppy and pushing boundaries. He's a lot like another 4, James Dean, or even Bob Dylan to a lesser extent. That's if you wanna talk energy, but you can get an idea of what the fixation is like based on how they phrase things as well. Here's another interesting thing...... what type, between 4 and 5 do you think considers themselves more an intellectual? I think the Fauvres gave this test in one of their workshops, and it turns out that 4s are more likely than 5s to describe themselves as an intellectual among the many adjectives to choose from. Intellectual is very image-laden adjective. Whereas 5s, despite being grouped as a competent type, I don't see a need to go around saying this. They assume their knowledge without needing to qualify it as such (power type), but also they may have issues considering themselves smart or intellectual in the first place -- perhaps a dichtonomy of a competence type. Also, envy is not that blatant in sp or sx first, especially if you're looking for the particular weeping brand of o i wish i had dis or dat. Internal comparison of what they don't have, in other words, over focus on their lack is more important marker.

I'm not saying your typing is wrong neccesarily. There's no way of really knowing. I'm just saying there's a reason for why it's typically typed that way.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@Phoenix_Rebirth


> Social 7.
> He is independent, freedom lover, anti-rules. He is not pride oriented, neither he takes pride in taking care of other people or making others dependent on him.


that's not a completely absurd typing for him, but Social 2 fits much better (and no, not because he "helps people", even though he actually does this a lot. the entire reason he almost doesn't make it to the pokemon league in the kanto is because he's always running around helping anyone who needs it in any of the cities he visits). contrary to what you believe, he is full of pride. he's very competitive, always trying to be the best and prove himself to the world because he wants acclaim and recognition. Ash is also very emotional, which most 7s are not.



> (John Snow) Social 4.
> He is way too much focused in doing the right thing - strong connection to 1. He is also painfully aware of him being a bastard, and he kinda plays the role of ''ugly duckling'' in the series, so I would go with social 4 to him.


Self Preservation 4 is a bit of an "ugly duckilng" too (Sexual 4 is more peacock lmao!), the difference is they are quiet about it. additionally, it is the Self Preservation 4 which is the most 1-ish, not the Social 4. they grit their teeth and bear it because it gives them the sense that they are being more "noble" in their attempts to make a martyr or themselves (as opposed to Social 4, who will subject themselves to pain for attention/a cry for help)



> (Mother Teresa) LOL at this. She was a superego core. My guess is 1w2 after I read one of @Naqsh posts about her.


I could see Social 1 (thought she was one myself until I learned about the subtypes), but Social 7 IS a superego type (like, moreso than most 6s and 2s to be honest). in my experience, most 1s aren't even Social activism oriented at all. most of them are cold with relatively little feeling and will choose values>people any day of the week. 



> ''I am justice'' - Light Yagami.


^thinks every sociopath ever. Light Yagami is a perfect example of how shitty most people's self awareness is and how they are completely different from what they say they are 



> (Viserys Targaryen) He is ID type.


Sexual 4 is a fairly Id type (so are Sexual 2 and Sexual 6 for that matter). I could also see him as a really fucked up 7, but he seems much more haughty, vindictive, elitist and punitive like Sexual 4 (you could argue they're not all like that, but that would be irrelevant here, because at least some are, and Viserys fits that particular brand of Sexual 4)



> (Sansa Stark) 3? -__-


yup



> She is not a 5 4 is a better fitting for her.


she is not as emotional as a 5 (with the exception of those several months without Edward where she kept crying, but that was unrealistically exaggerated to a point which was utterly ridiculous and out of character) and she lacks shame or envy. if you read the Sexual 5 description in Beatrice Chestnut's book, it fits her to a tee. they may as well named that subtype "romance" or "soulmate"



> (Barbossa) I dunno his type, but sexual 8? lol


what is ridiculous about this typing? can you think of a better one



> (Esmeralda) Social or Sexual 2w3.


a 2 typing for Esmeralda is not completely outlandish (Social 2 at least. Sexual 2s are exceedingly manipulative and selfish and use their sex appeal to get shit from people), especially given she has a very strong 2 fix (though 2w_1_, not 2w3) Social 8 women usually look like 2s (the males often look like 9s or 7s). Esmeralda is up to her eyeballs in spunk and is all about getting justice for her people. she is 8w7>2w1>7w6 So/Sx
http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-f...ocial-eights-according-beatrice-chestnut.html



> (Galadriel) Social 1st.


she is less extroverted than Social 9. they are the most outgoing 9, wishing to be involved in several activities as a means of losing themselves (think most of Owen Wilson's characters)


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