# Debate over Tritypes and if they exist



## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

I like the Enneagram typology as it focuses on emotions. Cognitive functions deal with perception and all too often we confuse Fi or Fe with being 'emotional'. People who are dom/aux in those judgments are more likely to be emotional than their thinker counterparts, but the judgment, itself, is a cognitive process. In Enneagram, we have three prime emotions of shame/grief (2,3,4) fear [of consequence] (5,6,7) & anger/rage (8,9,1). We either act on them/simulate (2,5,8); Deny their effect (3,6,9); or control/channel them throughout ourselves (1,4,7). I believe all three of these emotions are ones that humans experience, and must confront, which is why I like the idea of tritypes.

My friend @drmiller100 will be joining us in this debate. He can explain his position more, as he does not believe in tritypes as a concept. He is a type 8 ENTP and I am a type 7 ENTP. As always, since this is a forum, anybody is welcome to chime in (except 4s....ok 4s are allowed). Also forum rules will not be enforced...by me. That is the Mods' job (Thanks Captain Obvious!) I'll start:

I think 'tritype' is more nuanced than it sounds. As a 7w8 3w2 9w8, I am not trying to suggest that I also a type 3. The importance of tritypes, in my opinion, is they show the traits we've chosen to deal with the other two emotions, that we cannot simply ignore. I am a type 7, and that is my only type. I can read type 3 and see myself in it, but I'm also a Ti user so I'm fine with allocating myself to just one category. 

What makes 3w2 the 2nd of my tritype is I've chosen to deny shame (3), with a slight touch of acting on it (w2). I've told my story before that I used to be more narcissistic. Type 3s are not necessarily narcissists, but that disorder, even if not pathological, is tied to unhealthy type 3s. My dad is a 3w4 and has bonafide NPD. Also, he's one of the most interesting people anyone could meet. When I say I 'chose' type 3 as my 2nd, I mean I started to develop a narcissistic false ego at age 7. A year ago, I would have typed as a 3, but it was never what I naturally am. I'm not suggesting a person's 2nd type of the tritype is a disorder, but for me it was. As I've settled into who I am, which includes 7w8 in my psychological profile, my perception of type 3 traits has changed. Instead of pushing myself to achieve and establishing a persona, in an unhealthy way, my 3w2 simply supplements my 7w8 to where I'm not embarrassed by my enthusiasm and I can be quite charming. I am also not worried about admitting fault, I just don't feel bad. I'll do it, though, if I logically see that I made a mistake or I need to manipulate. To reiterate, identifying as 3w2, secondly, is a way to identify personality traits, which I believe is the purpose in tritypes.

My 3rd of the tritype, 9w8, came later in life as I settled on how to deal with anger. I'm 26, but I remember in high school deciding that I just wasn't going to let things bother me. I have no research to indicate that we subconsciously choose how to round out our tritype, but I think it make sense, intuitively. With 7w8 and 9w8 in my tritype, anger might brew in me, but is more likely to manifest as enthusiastic defiance and apathy towards the cause of potential anger. I've been angry maybe 5 times, in the past 8 years, and most of the times I was drunk (oops). 

Knowing my tritype allows me to understand my worldview, as big picture. I would describe myself as an optimistic realist and a jovial stoic. I like achieving things, but they must be interesting to me, first. I like playing the role of a referee, but I can only do that if I'm not stressed by a lack of future opportunities. Essentially, my best days, during the week, at work, are when I was able to turn work into a game, I 'win' the game, and I can drive home reflecting on deep issues. I'm still only a type 7. But we all are confronted with those 3 prime emotions and our 'selections' round out the emotional component of our personality.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

Some relevant cases where I've seen tritypes take effect:

-My mom is 2w3 ISFJ and my dad is 3w4 ESTJ. They divorced when I was 2. My step-dad is a great husband and is 8w9 ESTJ. His 2nd in his tritype is 2w3. Sure type 2 is where an 8 progresses to, but I believe he did it in a way to where it's a major part of his personality. It is also why I believe my mom and him can have a better relationship than my mom and dad did. My stepdad is able to emotionally relate to my mom, while my dad never tried (Again, he's NPD). He's also 3,6,9 in his tritype, so he denies all the emotions.

-One of my best friends is an ESTJ 8w9. His 2nd is 3w2 and him and I get along so well because we can crack jokes on each other without it bothering us. Actually most of my friends, seemed to have type 3 in their tritype as we don't embarrass easily. None of us are type 3s, though, but I can see 3 being popular among guys, in their tritype, as a way to protect against shame and uphold expectations of masculinity. Not sure if that's true, it just sounds good.
-One of my good girl friends is an ISFJ 2w3. Neither 2 nor 3 are connected to 7, but her tritype includes 7w6. She's actually open to occasional drunken adventures.
-I've known plenty of ExFP types who are 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7. But anger was something they'd be quick to act upon which is why 8 would be in their tritype.

Continuing with the last example, an actual type 8 knows how to properly simulate anger as a way to insure things get done. Most of the type 8s I know might act as if they're angry, in order to get things done, but they do that so that nobody in the group, especially themselves, won't actually get angry for real. Those who have 8 in their tritype just display anger, but aren't as practical in it's use.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

I don't see any reason to "disbelieve" in tritype. 

It was first observed by Ichazo, at the very inception of the modern enneagram. It was later developed by the Fauvres. To the best of my knowledge, it's generally accepted within the field--I'm not aware of any serious practitioner actually saying it's illegitimate.

There are 3 centers in the theory--head, heart, and gut. And some authors, such as J. Wagner, even describe how each of us may come into contact with those centers (and yes, you can actually feel them operating there if you're attuned to it). It seems reasonable to me that each of these centers would be tooled to a particular outlook, with one predominating.

That said, it may not always be useful for some individuals. There are some people who really seem to be two non-related types (I've known someone for years I can't determine if they're more 2 or more 9). Then there are people I can't see another fix, a connecting point, or a wing. Just clearly and purely the core type. So it's also a matter of individuals.

(I can definitely talk about how it affects me, but I'll save that for another day.)


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## aurly (Jun 15, 2014)

I don't see how mixing nature (core type - motivations) and nurture (2 more types - learned behaviour) like that could ever be a good idea.
Like, what do you even do with a 4 who denies their shame?


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## Quang (Sep 4, 2014)

I really like the Tritypes theory, because it supports the notion that we have 3 different types of intelligence: the heart (emotional), mind (mental), gut (instinctual); similar to how there are three dimensions of reality: the physical, intellectual, spiritual. It makes sense for me. The Enneagram does not fully distinguish between people of the same enneagram type and instinctual variant, while the Tritype does a better job to explain these nuances. 

When I was explaining the Tritypes to a group of teenagers at an Enneagram camp earlier this summer, I used the analogy of a RPG (Role-Playing Game).

Each Enneagram type is like the basic class:
1. Swordsman
2. Healer
3. Thief
4. Bard
5. Magician
6. Defender
7. Archer
8. Fighter
9. Priest

Thus the Tritype is elaborates on our 2nd and 3rd class:
739 suggests that your basic class is the 'Archer' but with the influence of 3 and 9 makes you something like a 'flashy but fluid' kind of Archer e.g. dancer, minstrel, entertainer, buffer, wardrummer

Our dominant instinct is like an 'affinity' which determines whether we are stronger within defensive prowess (SP), offensive prowess (SX) or social prowess (SO).

NOTE: 7w8 3w2 9w8 is the trifix, however, 7w8 739 is the Tritype. I discussed the differences between the two systems with a known Scandinavian Enneagram teacher (Claus Roagers) and insistently corrected me on this difference.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Im not sure anymore. I think it exists even if the numerous connections create more congestive excess. But it also conflicts with the theory of all 9 strategies existing within us or at least it throws in another spanner. If both were to be valid, we'd have all the presence of all 9 types but find ourselves fixated the most on one particular type in each centre, this makes the system quite fluid. If you think about enneatype mechanisms, I can see others that arn't necessarily in my apparant tritype being enacted on, more short-lived though, temporary. In my own experience it's as if your beliefs about things sometimes shift but not at a deep enough, consistent level, this dynamic gives clues to how people transition through the different parts of the wheel. It's the difference between this type being your main perception of life and this other type being a situational belief. Wings included further creates confusion between knowing if you're influenced by a wing or whether that was just a random, natural occurance because we all enact any of the 9 types theory. All these other pet theories and add-ons just arn't needed until the base is sorted out *throws rubix cube out the window*

Thing is whatever all the above means, the opposite could be just as true. 

Psychologically, the basis behind each type is flawless to me, if we were to just concentrate on each type as a chapter of a book rather than an interconnected web, we would still learn a lot about ourselves but maybe without the added bonus of seeing in a clear diagram how the family of types interact.

Simplicity can also be a wonderful thing. And you have to ask yourself, at the end of the day, is this helpful to me? Another thing, is this wheel a self help map or a general map to understand existence?


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

aurly said:


> I don't see how mixing nature (core type - motivations) and nurture (2 more types - learned behaviour) like that could ever be a good idea.
> Like, what do you even do with a 4 who denies their shame?


I don't se it as nurture. It's to do with that you have all the centers and all the types within you, and thus also their motivations. Just that as with everything, they aren't of equal weight in your personality and psyche, and some will therefore occupy more space and thus also, relevance, than others. I'm undeniably 8 and 4 to the point I don't care much for my head fix because it's fairly irrelevant in comparison to 4 and 8. If I didn't type as an 8 core, I'd type as a 4, probably. Outside of the hidden connection line that Naranjo highlights in his book, there's very little these two types got in common sans being reactive types. They are pretty much inverse of each other. People who know me also don't deny that I _am_ very 4-ish. It's not external behavior, but that the behavior is informed by a strong life motivation. 

I cannot explain this with the traditional enneagram alone, only tritype can.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> It was first observed by Ichazo, at the very inception of the modern enneagram. It was later developed by the Fauvres.


Just to clarify, Ichazo's trifix (from which Tritype was derived) took one type from each of his instinctual centers. The personality types don't map each type to an instinct like Ichazo but to a center of intelligence (one major reason the two systems are different). The personality types instead stack instincts upon a person's type or describe type as an instinctual subtype (e.g., Naranjo, Chestnut).

The fact that trifix and Tritype look at the same groupings of type (891, 234, 567) creates the illusion that they are the same thing. In fact, the Fauvres originally called what they were doing trifix until it was pointed out that they were doing something different than trifix. They then came up with their own name for what they were doing and called it Tritype. 



Kipposhi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, it's generally accepted within the field--I'm not aware of any serious practitioner actually saying it's illegitimate.


No other major authors besides the Fauvres use Tritype that I know of. Tritype is trademarked by the Fauvres.



Kipposhi said:


> There are 3 centers in the theory--head, heart, and gut. And some authors, such as J. Wagner, even describe how each of us may come into contact with those centers (and yes, you can actually feel them operating there if you're attuned to it). It seems reasonable to me that each of these centers would be tooled to a particular outlook, with one predominating.


There's a simpler way to understand how an individual uses all three centers. I use something I call tricenter shift. The idea is that each type has access to all three centers already. It's just that one center is dominant. The tricenter is found by changing the inner lines to three triangles (like the 369 triangle). For example, the 147 tricenter indicates that type 7 is aware of the type 4 feeling center and the type 1 doing center. It's just that type 7 often experiences those types as shadows that are avoided or overridden (type 4 may represent emotional pain or discomfort and type 1 commitment to a course of action as being limited to doing just one thing). For type 7, pain/discomfort and limitations are often found in these shadow types and to be avoided or overridden by the head center (interesting mental possibilities or alternatives).



Entropic said:


> I'm undeniably 8 and 4 to the point I don't care much for my head fix because it's fairly irrelevant in comparison to 4 and 8. If I didn't type as an 8 core, I'd type as a 4, probably. Outside of the hidden connection line that Naranjo highlights in his book, there's very little these two types got in common sans being reactive types. They are pretty much inverse of each other. People who know me also don't deny that I _am_ very 4-ish. It's not external behavior, but that the behavior is informed by a strong life motivation.
> 
> I cannot explain this with the traditional enneagram alone, only tritype can.


I think that's a major appeal of Tritype (being able to identify with types that are more relevant than the traditional connections allow for). I use an approach I call Referential Preference that's similar to Tritype but based on something different than simply finding one type from each center. Instead you find one type from each referential. In your case it would start with 8-4 and the third type would be selected from 9, 3, or 6. The 8 represents what center you use to manage the world. The 4 represents what center used to cultivate the self. The 9, 3, or 6 represents what center you look to others to provide or resolve for you.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm an 8w7. I devolve to 5, and grow to 2, and those are very easy points for me to use.

I use all 9 of the points, some easier than others. 

So, for tri types, I take those four, and add 2 more points, or a total of 6, assuming I don't use tri type wings (really??? wings for a tri type??)

So I'm back to the idea I can use all 9 points, except for a couple of them.

Yawn.


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## varuna (Jul 15, 2015)

Like @drmiller100 said, if , at most, you _maintain _ the wings for a tritype, you get 6 on 9 possibiliites ( even with different weights) so that is a joke really . It is too much "up to" the very person you are trying to " type ". 
I like the idea of the three centers, and can really feel it. BUT in this case , no wing . It is more your evolution in time, even at short distance . 
The type/wing is now and then . yes I know in this case it might change ! 
Two more points 

a) For the founder of the system ( even if G. didnt think in theses terms) , we all have to or will pass through the 9 types . 
HIs ideas ( told by Ouspensky so we can debate further ah a h:ninja were more in terms of dynamic and movement . 
Like the Yi king or the energies in shiatsu : At 30 minutes they are different in scale and locations . 
And this guy was at the same time a guru, a crook ( he told that himself), a healer, a teacher , a guide . 
And he was not so *damn serious like a psy *
b) ( found this in wiki ) 
-----------
One of the best means for arousing the wish to work on yourself is to realize that you may die at any moment. But first you must learn how to keep it in mind.
-----------------------------

may be a line in hagakure ( this guy had read everything he could) .


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> I think that's a major appeal of Tritype (being able to identify with types that are more relevant than the traditional connections allow for). I use an approach I call Referential Preference that's similar to Tritype but based on something different than simply finding one type from each center. Instead you find one type from each referential. In your case it would start with 8-4 and the third type would be selected from 9, 3, or 6. The 8 represents what center you use to manage the world. The 4 represents what center used to cultivate the self. The 9, 3, or 6 represents what center you look to others to provide or resolve for you.


Why 369 triad? They represent very different things, also.


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## varuna (Jul 15, 2015)

( pb solved now answer) 
I presume 369 is one of the triangles of the famous_ circle_ ( which is a _disk_ , not empty )
for example 
http://www.enneagramdimensions.net/articles\circle_triangle_hexad_pt2.pdf
the value is up to you . 
As I said somewhere else , do not look for any math or science in G. work . :wink:


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree about the time dimension. With time for some comes progression, change, and growth.

The vast majority of people here are young by my standards. OF those who are old, few of us are arrogant enough to post very much.'

smiles....


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## o0india0o (Mar 17, 2015)

I don't really think Tritype exists; it's just something fun -and extra- to preoccupy my attention.

I believe it's more plausible that we have a little of all the Types in us, some more than others. I don't think the top 3 "strongest" types in a personality necessarily correlate to the Heart, Gut, and Head centers (though, I'm sure they do in some individuals).

It's a nice concept, but mostly I just do it for amusement (& more mental head stimulation// food for thought). 
I think, if it helps you - - that's Great! Indulge in the theory.

But, I personally think top 3 Enneagram types in a personality would be more meaningful as a "tritype"; and would better encompass an individual's experience and personality.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

The value of anything at PerC is discussion and improved understanding for relationships and self management. So if a tritype doesn't help you, it doesn't apply to you.

This page, when it got down to detailed wing descriptions, made some sense to me. http://personalitycafe.com/articles/47315-freudian-theory-enneagram.html

5w6, 8w9, 3w4 explains why my life seemed (past tense) to fit me perfectly, recent upheavals were so devastating, and why fixing what an observer would think is a fix, won't make me happy. I had all these three "departments" of my life synchronized in a satisfying way.


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## star tripper (Sep 1, 2013)

Entropic said:


> Why 369 triad? They represent very different things, also.


I'm assuming...



enneathusiast said:


> The referential is simply where the center is referenced or resolved: internally (147), externally (825), or displaced (936).


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

3,6,9 is the cleanest or most direct interpretation of Freud's model of consciousness The id, ego and superego.

9 - the moderator (ego as Freud defined it) is the part of you that knows you make choices and have situations to weigh.
3 - accomplishment, Id satisfaction, the part of you that wants, reacts, knows reward.
6 - superego, conscience, morality, Some have said this is unconscious, ingrained, learned from parents or life experience. 

If you have one type, it could be said you have a priority or a compensation you do (healthy in balance with the connector lines on enneagram chart). If you see yourself as having a tritype, (other than some combination of 698) you have a specialization or skew of Freud's basic model.

Wings keep extremes in check. I don't see logical problems with this as a system other than the whole enneagram may try to explain too much. Plus Freud's ideas about fear and sex are a little out there to make toooo much over.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Why 369 triad? They represent very different things, also.


In terms of the centers, types 9, 3, and 6 are similar in how they access them. The referential preference concept is trying to find which center is primary when we reference for reality in different ways.

Roughly:
Types 8, 2, and 5 are primarily focused on the world around them through their center.
Types 1, 4, and 7 are primarily focused on the self through their center.
Types 9, 3, and 6 are primarily focused on their center as resolved in others.

There's no reason we can't primarily use the same center for two or even all three of the references.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> In terms of the centers, types 9, 3, and 6 are similar in how they access them. The referential preference concept is trying to find which center is primary when we reference for reality in different ways.
> 
> Roughly:
> Types 8, 2, and 5 are primarily focused on the world around them through their center.
> ...


But how does that allow people to have access to all three of the centers of intelligence for example?


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

aurly said:


> I don't see how mixing nature (core type - motivations) and nurture (2 more types - learned behaviour) like that could ever be a good idea.
> Like, what do you even do with a 4 who denies their shame?


I'll start with this. Ummm I'm type 7 so the idea of mixing everything is great. Also I wouldn't say nurture so much as a choice with likely outcomes that becomes rooted at a certain age. At 26, I do not think my tritype will ever change, although I can still mature.
@Quang Archers are lame. Unless we're talking about Sterling Archer.



mushr00m said:


> Im not sure anymore. I think it exists even if the numerous connections create more congestive excess. But it also conflicts with the theory of all 9 strategies existing within us or at least it throws in another spanner. If both were to be valid, we'd have all the presence of all 9 types but find ourselves fixated the most on one particular type in each centre, this makes the system quite fluid. If you think about enneatype mechanisms, I can see others that aren't necessarily in my apparant tritype being enacted on, more short-lived though, temporary. In my own experience it's as if your beliefs about things sometimes shift but not at a deep enough, consistent level, this dynamic gives clues to how people transition through the different parts of the wheel.
> 
> Simplicity can also be a wonderful thing. And you have to ask yourself, at the end of the day, is this helpful to me? Another thing, is this wheel a self help map or a general map to understand existence?


 @Entropic as well
I conceptualize Enneagram like topography. Your type is the most full and is the peak of your emotional globe.
So, for me, type 7 is the Himalayas of my world. 3 are my Appalachians that flatten out in 2. 8 is a high plateau that rises into 9, which is a Cliff that drops into the valley of 1. 5 is a hilly landscape which is adjacent to 6 lowlands. 4 is Antarctica that is not my priority at all.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> I'm an 8w7. I devolve to 5, and grow to 2, and those are very easy points for me to use.
> 
> I use all 9 of the points, some easier than others.
> 
> ...


Honestly, by describing your understand as easy, I fallaciously gather that you're not bright enough to understand what I'm saying. I am making fun of you, of course, but still your short answer is poor form for an ENTP. You're the one who challenged me to start a thread, so git up buckaroo and defend yourself. 



> So I'm back to the idea I can use all 9 points, except for a couple of them.


So you actually believe in a variant of tritype theory, except you think the other types we emulate are assigned based on our actual type and wing. I think that's too simplistic, although a good starting point for anyone learning Enneagram.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Entropic said:


> But how does that allow people to have access to all three of the centers of intelligence for example?


That's the other piece I call tricenter shift. Each type already accesses all three centers. A type in a center just indicates which is primary in the dynamic between all three (e.g., the 825 tricenter indicates that the doing center is dominant for type 8 but type 8 also internally accesses type 2 feeling and type 5 thinking - it's just that type 8 doing tends to override these other two centers which generally don't get expressed in personality because of this). Referential preference and tricenter shift taken together reveal a functional map that maps these dynamics for an individual. You can take a simple test at this link and see a diagram of the resulting functional map.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> That's the other piece I call tricenter shift. Each type already accesses all three centers. A type in a center just indicates which is primary in the dynamic between all three (e.g., the 825 tricenter indicates that the doing center is dominant for type 8 but type 8 also internally accesses type 2 feeling and type 5 thinking - it's just that type 8 doing tends to override these other two centers which generally don't get expressed in personality because of this). Referential preference and tricenter shift taken together reveal a functional map that maps these dynamics for an individual. You can take a simple test at this link and see a diagram of the resulting functional map.


I took the test. I got 7-3-8. The reason I prefer my tritype as 7-3-9, though is the 9 contains 8, as opposed to the 8 overflowing into 9. I'd consider it an artificial construct as I've been able to mature. It makes sense to me, which is all that I need to understand and like tritypes.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> babbled
> 
> .


I'm not going to respond to your personal attacks. I would ask you to edit your post to remove them.

You are welcome to argue with my ideas or opinions or posts. 

I also invite you to google the word fallaciously and examine your use of the word as you did.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> I'm not going to respond to your personal attacks. I would ask you to edit your post to remove them.
> 
> You are welcome to argue with my ideas or opinions or posts.
> 
> I also invite you to google the word fallaciously and examine your use of the word as you did.


"Honestly, by describing your understand as easy, I fallaciously gather that you're not bright enough to understand what I'm saying. I am making fun of you, of course, but still your short answer is poor form for an ENTP."

This is what I said. It's annoying that I must be thorough in my words, but I'll explain the context. By saying I fallaciously gather, I am making a joke that I could make a fallacy by insinuating your short reply makes you an idiot. I was acknowledging that it would not be logical to make that criticism. When I said poor form for an ENTP, though, I was being serious in that I was disappointed that you were not going to defend your ideas. I would not create a thread, with you specifically in mind, to mock you, unless it was in Spam World.

The 2nd part was me critiquing your ideas that you presented.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> The reason I prefer my tritype as 7-3-9, though is the 9 contains 8, as opposed to the 8 overflowing into 9.


What do you mean by _the 9 contains 8_ or _the 8 overflowing into 9_?


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> What do you mean by _the 9 contains 8_ or _the 8 overflowing into 9_?


It means that I can feel the anger inside of me, but ultimately I let it go. In real life terms, I am more likely to back away from a fight as being peaceful is something I see as more practical. With anger, I more manifest it as temporary annoyance, but mostly I just let it go. So by saying "9 contains 8" it means it acts as a dam to keep it contained to where being aggressive is not my style. However, if need be, though, I will fight and do so enthusiastically. 8 is deeper and fuller, but 9 rises higher, is what I'm getting at.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> J
> No other major authors besides the Fauvres use Tritype that I know of. Tritype is trademarked by the Fauvres.


Just to clarify, I am not saying that other authors "use" it--just that I haven't seen anyone officially arguing against it.

Russ Hudson is quoted endorsing the concept on the front of the Fauvres publications, though. Again, that doesn't mean he "uses" it, just that he sees it as credible.


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## varuna (Jul 15, 2015)

Two funny things ( about the credibility of al this stuff ) 
1) the very test up gave me a very different tritype : 5 first ( as when I was 20 like all math or phi students ) 
and no 8 . on thing i am sure is the importance of the 8 now . 
2) If everybody is able to read, it doesn't mean " take with" ( comprendere in latin) . 
the guy who creates all this stuff is neither 
on of the _two americans _ or one the Fauvres' . 
He had other intents and other cultures . 

And, last but not least ; 
1) the guy who gets the code for enigma was english ( A. Turing I worked on his job) 
2) the last samourai was french and a former soldier of Napoleon 3


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

varuna said:


> Two funny things ( about the credibility of al this stuff )
> 1) the very test up gave me a very different tritype : 5 first ( as when I was 20 like all math or phi students )
> and no 8 . on thing i am sure is the importance of the 8 now .
> 2) If everybody is able to read, it doesn't mean " take with" ( comprendere in latin) .
> ...


Interesting. My undergrad is theoretical math with a minor in physics. The math taught me the discipline to master my Ti, and helped me look hard at my 5 and learn to use it. I still use 5 as a calming center. 

The irony in your posts are most will never comprehend you, nor "see" what you are saying. 

Time allows me to see how I use the different points. 
1 is my drive for a perfection within me I will never hold another to. 
2 is difficult for me, and vulnerable, and where I grow towards, and is my center in humanity. 
3 is the competence to do things right, and respect those who try. 
4 is a distant, far center to me. Oh so attractive, like the candle for a moth who repeatedly gets singed, and never learns.
5 is my thirst for knowledge, easy, close, reflective, relaxing.
6 is my loyalty, my ability to fix, my reason for fighting long past rational thought.
7 is my love for new, variety, and brings me the energy to bring fun to work
8 is my core.
9 is the peace I wish for others, and a reminder others prefer peace over the conflict I love.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> "Honestly, by describing your understand as easy, I fallaciously gather that you're not bright enough to understand what I'm saying. I am making fun of you, of course, but still your short answer is poor form for an ENTP."
> 
> This is what I said. It's annoying that I must be thorough in my words, but I'll explain the context. By saying I fallaciously gather, I am making a joke that I could make a fallacy by insinuating your short reply makes you an idiot. I was acknowledging that it would not be logical to make that criticism. When I said poor form for an ENTP, though, I was being serious in that I was disappointed that you were not going to defend your ideas. I would not create a thread, with you specifically in mind, to mock you, unless it was in Spam World.
> 
> The 2nd part was me critiquing your ideas that you presented.


"describing your UNDERSTAND of ...." lead me to underestimate your command of English grammar. Your desire to use complex sentences to describe simple concepts makes things overly complicated.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> "describing your UNDERSTAND of ...." lead me to underestimate your command of English grammar. Your desire to use complex sentences to describe simple concepts makes things overly complicated.


Grammar criticism? mehhh. Stick to the topic


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> That's the other piece I call tricenter shift. Each type already accesses all three centers. A type in a center just indicates which is primary in the dynamic between all three (e.g., the 825 tricenter indicates that the doing center is dominant for type 8 but type 8 also internally accesses type 2 feeling and type 5 thinking - it's just that type 8 doing tends to override these other two centers which generally don't get expressed in personality because of this). Referential preference and tricenter shift taken together reveal a functional map that maps these dynamics for an individual. You can take a simple test at this link and see a diagram of the resulting functional map.


Then you would have to remap the connections for 5, 7, 2 and 4, which means you are ignoring the law of 7. Why?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> Just to clarify, I am not saying that other authors "use" it--just that I haven't seen anyone officially arguing against it.
> 
> Russ Hudson is quoted endorsing the concept on the front of the Fauvres publications, though. Again, that doesn't mean he "uses" it, just that he sees it as credible.


I guess I just don't equate endorsements or not arguing against it with it being credible. Authors and teachers routinely endorse each other's work as professional courtesy and community. That's just the nature of the business. I don't remember seeing any author of late that argues against anyone else's work. So an endorsement quote or lack of argument doesn't imply credible to me. It just implies "I'll say good things about you if you say good things about me."


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Then you would have to remap the connections for 5, 7, 2 and 4, which means you are ignoring the law of 7. Why?


Because the law of 7 has to do with the way Gurdjieff and his students used the Enneagram to understand a process but has nothing to do with how the personality types use the Enneagram (it's part of the misinformation that gets perpetuated). Claudio Naranjo, the man who gave birth to the Ennea-types, talks about some of this below.






For me, the symbol should be a graphical representation of how things work and not something that dictates or limits how you can think about things. On the symbol, types 8, 9, 1, 3, and 6 have connections to all three centers but types 2, 4, 5, and 7 only have connections to two centers - why? Do we reason that types 2, 4, 5, and 7 are limited in this way because the symbol tells us so or do we adjust the symbol to compensate for this limitation of the Gurdjieff symbol?

Even long-time teachers like David Daniels are going beyond the limitations of the Enneagram inner lines. Click here for his harmony triads.


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## Tharwen (Mar 20, 2013)

tritype is so cool. its a shame that its hoccus poccus, like astrology.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> I guess I just don't equate endorsements or not arguing against it with it being credible. Authors and teachers routinely endorse each other's work as professional courtesy and community. That's just the nature of the business. I don't remember seeing any author of late that argues against anyone else's work. So an endorsement quote or lack of argument doesn't imply credible to me. It just implies "I'll say good things about you if you say good things about me."


Well, I'm not suggesting that what the authors say or don't say _makes_ tritype theory credible (or not). I just said that a) Russ Hudson showed up with a tritype on the cover of the tritype booklet and seemed to lend it some legitimacy that way, and b) the theory is credible in my mind because I find it has use to me (or maybe I didn't write that, but that is why I accept it). Also that I haven't seen any sharp criticism of the theory, which of course proves nothing but can at least be taken into account.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Kipposhi said:


> the theory is credible in my mind because I find it has use to me (or maybe I didn't write that, but that is why I accept it).


If you find it useful in your own experience then I accept that as support for the theory. Expand upon that if you like.

Out of curiosity, do any of the following work for you? They're not Tritype but my own alternative (you don't choose one from each center but one from each triangle).


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

enneathusiast said:


> If you find it useful in your own experience then I accept that as support for the theory. Expand upon that if you like.


 @enneathusiast

I've already attempted type-suicide on this forum three times this month so far, so I should probably not get _too _too in depth here. But I'll give it my best shot. It's boring and irrelevant to the larger discussion, so I'm spoilering it.


* *




But basically, it wasn't easy for me to arrive at my core type. I do a lot of shit that you wouldn't expect 8s to do, at least from the descriptions and online stereotypes--and most of that shit is reminiscent of the more ridiculous side of type 4. Case in point, being emotionally dramatic--but in my case, it revolves around seeing how far I can push. You could say it's a form of bullying that doesn't look like it (or no one has figured out that's what's really going on, anyway).

Plus other things--lifelong depressive tendencies and an eye for tragedy and the passing of all things, a resistance to having my emotions wilfully "changed", having a vague sense of myself as being "different" and that this is a good thing, and ... well, "envy" (noticing what's missing from my life and noting that other people seem to have it). I can't look at a 4 description and _not_ see many of my tendencies.

But I don't use these mechanisms to that end. I don't have image issues--it's something I'm oblivious to. I don't care to explore my own emotions and don't identify with them in any way. I don't really go through life feeling like I've been abandoned; I don't value sensitivity within myself. Quite the opposite. Life to me has always been war and struggle (in a good way), some asshole always just did something to me, and I'm mad as hell. Sensitivity is *bad*, dumb impractical people, *I'm not weak*, blah blah.

I front the 4ish behaviors, but it's being done for reasons of boundaries and control. (Incidentally, this is also what the Fauvres state in their booklet). The 7-fix could arguably be 5 or 6, but I can actually identify with the 478 tritype description. I hesitate to discuss 7-like behaviors, since I draw on my 7-wing anyway. But I've been facing issues recently that can only be described as some sort of existential anxiety--not in a 6 way. What's the best way to go? How can I maximize my happiness and avoid further pain? I fear that pain, for I know too well an individual's capacity to ruin their own happiness, and that is paralyzingly scary to me. It's often obscured by wild excitement and outlandish plans. I admit, it could simply be the 7-wing again, but it's really the only head-center issue I remotely identify with.

I haven't even talked about how I see the theory at work in others, but I could give you a similar analysis.

Anyway, for these and many other reasons, I find tritype valid in my personal experience.






> Out of curiosity, do any of the following work for you? They're not Tritype but my own alternative (you don't choose one from each center but one from each triangle).


Interesting idea, but so far, not really. I can elaborate below.









I guess the 9 would come closest in some ways, but that's more on a day-to-day psychological level for me. My daily functioning is fraught with inertia and laziness. However, looking at the overall core motivations of type 9, that's clearly not how I am at all. I put 9 as my wing, but...I wouldn't want to use it as one of my "centers". That would be misleading.









It wouldn't be this one. Three is another type I knew I couldn't possibly be, just on so many levels. I mean the values and motivations are so different, I'd feel bad saying "I have a 3". Not as any center of intelligence. 









This would be the closest in other ways. Even in tritype terms, I consider the 6 as a possible head-fix. I can certainly identify many superficial 6 characteristics in myself, but is that enough? Also, would this make me "triple reactive" in your system?

Anyway, that's my fair shot at it. I hope it's informative or useful to you (or someone else) in any way.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> Because the law of 7 has to do with the way Gurdjieff and his students used the Enneagram to understand a process but has nothing to do with how the personality types use the Enneagram (it's part of the misinformation that gets perpetuated). Claudio Naranjo, the man who gave birth to the Ennea-types, talks about some of this below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yet, if you read what Naranjo wrote based on Ichazo's teachings, you'll see that he's proposing the map of the law of 7 exactly as how the enneagram looks today. He is after all, endorsing it himself:










I am not saying it is wrong to go beyond them, but on what basis are you doing so? It does contradict some fundamental tenets on which the enneagram is built. The reason why 2, 4, 5 and 7 are limited in this way, is, on my knowledge, based on the division of 1/7, where you get this number: 0.142857142 etc. ad finitum. 

So the logic is that 2 and 4 are connected is because of the law of 7 and how the numericals follow when you divide 1/7.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

enneathusiast said:


> Because the law of 7 has to do with the way Gurdjieff and his students used the Enneagram to understand a process but has nothing to do with how the personality types use the Enneagram (it's part of the misinformation that gets perpetuated). Claudio Naranjo, the man who gave birth to the Ennea-types, talks about some of this below.
> 
> Video was here---------- see original
> 
> ...


Yes, I was thinking the same thing (bold)
I think the validity or usefulness in Enneagram study, the way it is used at PerC - is for discussion - plus it relates to Freud's idea of consciousness (and since we don't have a clear scientific understanding of *consciousness* Freud's model is still as good as anything). I'm going to re-do this link here because this is the best answer to The OP question:

http://personalitycafe.com/articles/47315-freudian-theory-enneagram.html

*Ego, Id, and Superego* - all the connecting lines cover these three aspects of consciousness, other than what you, @enneathusiast* , *mention above. So these types tie into some of what Freud was thinking. That this shape is anything sacred to personality is unfounded, as far as I know.

@drmiller100 , I think you mistake these for skill sets (your itemized list) when all these systems on PerC are a matter of personal priority or specialization or favorite tactic, not so much having the skill or not.

So the person who deals with the world based on being a helper (type 2) is earning love by using a "paying it forward" strategy. The above link has a good description of this. So for example, just because I don't use this as a life tactic, doesn't mean I avoid helping people when a situation presents itself or somebody asks for my help.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Entropic said:


> Yet, if you read what Naranjo wrote based on Ichazo's teachings, you'll see that he's proposing the map of the law of 7 exactly as how the enneagram looks today. He is after all, endorsing it himself:


I don't think he actually uses the law of 7 in any way nor the inner hexad that's built from it. The types are just placed on the symbol but the symbol isn't actually used in the Gurdjieffian tradition which is where the law of 7 and the octave moving around the circle comes from. 



Entropic said:


> I am not saying it is wrong to go beyond them, but on what basis are you doing so? It does contradict some fundamental tenets on which the enneagram is built. The reason why 2, 4, 5 and 7 are limited in this way, is, on my knowledge, based on the division of 1/7, where you get this number: 0.142857142 etc. ad finitum.
> 
> So the logic is that 2 and 4 are connected is because of the law of 7 and how the numericals follow when you divide 1/7.


The Enneagram symbol and the types come from two different traditions but people tend to lump them together as if they're the same. The symbol comes from Gurdjieff (and wherever he got it). The types come from Ichazo (and whatever traditions he tapped into to derive them). The types don't use the symbol as Gurdjieff did. They were simply placed upon the symbol by Ichazo and the symbol was used in a different way. This creates a lot of confusion for people who see the symbol and then try to apply Gurdjieff's use of the symbol to the types. 

The law of 7 (often expressed as an octave) is part of the Gurdjieff tradition where points 3 and 6 are shock points that add new processes to the existing process as it travels clockwise around the circle (the initial Do starts at point 9, another Do is started at the first shock point 3, and another Do is started at the second shock point 6). The types don't do anything like this with the symbol.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> I don't think he actually uses the law of 7 in any way nor the inner hexad that's built from it. The types are just placed on the symbol but the symbol isn't actually used in the Gurdjieffian tradition which is where the law of 7 and the octave moving around the circle comes from.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In some ways, this looks like shit horoscope. But in other ways, it seems strangely scientific and mathematical. I prefer it to look like the latter. Either way, you are highly informed but probably a bit of an Enneagram heretic haha.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

The graphic is not mine and I don't use it. Just trying to make a point that the Gurdjieff use of the Enneagram (and all the concepts associated with it) have little if anything to do with the types.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> The graphic is not mine and I don't use it. Just trying to make a point that the Gurdjieff use of the Enneagram (and all the concepts associated with it) have little if anything to do with the types.


I do not think that point was necessary.

What makes Enneagram intriguing, is whether using tritype or describing a "fix", a person's emotional state reflects outwardly in different types, that may not be traditionally connected. I like reading the theories about what goes on inside the circle as nothing is definitive. Still, why waste our time showing us a graphic representation of something you don't agree with?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Drunk Parrot said:


> . Still, why waste our time showing us a graphic representation of something you don't agree with?


who is this "our" you speak of? Do you believe the spirit and meaning behind your post is a function of your tri type?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> Do you believe the spirit and meaning behind your post is a function of your tri type?


The obvious question is whether I'm willing to answer my own question. 

My post is utterly predictable based upon me being an 8. I am highly reactionary to those who would use shame to stifle someone who is honestly trying to help, grow, or become.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> who is this "our" you speak of?


Don't care



> Do you believe the spirit and meaning behind your post is a function of your tri type?


Finally, back to the discussion. I'm willing to compromise and say tritypes aren't actually real. In the sense that my 2nd 3w2 integrates to 6 & 4. Rather, only 7w8 integrates. However, I find tritype useful, as a typing system, because it describes traits. My 3w2 & 9w8 are silhouettes of those types and simply explain my response to shame and anger. Being in control of fear by living with enthusiasm is my prime motivation.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> I do not think that point was necessary.


It wasn't meant for you. It was a response to Entropic's post. I thought that would be obvious since I quoted his post then posted a response to it.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> It wasn't meant for you. It was a response to Entropic's post. I thought that would be obvious since I quoted his post then posted a response to it.


I started this thread to debate tritypes. I derail threads too, but I admit that I am. For the context of what's we're trying to discuss, putting graphics up to represent a system that you're not in favor of is just clutter. 

Now, can you please address the simple question of using tritypes as a way to type someone, Good or Bad?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> Now, can you please address the simple question of using tritypes as a way to type someone, Good or Bad?


I already addressed that. Go back and read my post.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> I already addressed that. Go back and read my post.


Maybe you did in your own way. I think you've danced around too much citing sources that you may or may not agree with. I prefer to work with our own theories since this is a forum about a topic that is beyond the scientific method. It's pure theory. Keep doing what you want, I just think it's clutter, and doesn't improve what we're discussing.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> Keep doing what you want, I just think it's clutter, and doesn't improve what we're discussing.


Well, then we sort of agree on that point because I think the same of what you're presenting. Why you feel the need to make a point of it is a mystery to me since the only posts by me of late on this thread have been in response to you quoting me. Just stop quoting or mentioning me and you'll avoid that clutter.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> Well, then we sort of agree on that point because I think the same of what you're presenting. Why you feel the need to make a point of it is a mystery to me since the only posts by me of late on this thread have been in response to you quoting me. Just stop quoting or mentioning me and you'll avoid that clutter.


Clutter created by me is perfectly acceptable and highly encouraged. So most Enneagram enthusiasts are ok with 7w8 being my type. I've furthered included 3w2 and 9w8 as extensions. Is that acceptable for you and do you think there is a better way to bring out the fullness of our personality? I've seen you offer alternatives and explanations, but you've yet to say what you think the most effective system is. Unless you have, which I'll just blame on clutter.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> I've seen you offer alternatives and explanations, but you've yet to say what you think the most effective system is.


Just click on my signature and you'll see a whole website about my alternatives, explanations, and the system as I use it.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> Just click on my signature and you'll see a whole website about my alternatives, explanations, and the system as I use it.


I had clicked on it before. A lot of theory but I don't see it as too definitive. I also see you're unknown as if you don't want to commit to anything for yourself. So indecisive haha.

I think there's something to be said for our "shadow". Clockwise from 8 and counter-clockwise from 7 has 3 right in the middle. I think 7w8 * 8w7 has a sense of no shame. Same way 7w6 & 6w7 are often inspired to be helpful, like 2s. Traditional lines may not connect them, but the connection is intuitively there, in my opinion. What do you think?


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

Drunk Parrot said:


> I also see you're unknown as if you don't want to commit to anything for yourself. So indecisive haha.


I'm guessing that you're talking about my type. I work on the premise that each of us is all nine types and the end-goal is about discovering that in yourself. You start off identifying yourself as a one or more types in order to see where you're stuck most in your habit of being but once that's been loosened up a bit you start exploring the other aspects of yourself that had been ignored because you've been so preoccupied with that particular habit of being.



Drunk Parrot said:


> I think there's something to be said for our "shadow". Clockwise from 8 and counter-clockwise from 7 has 3 right in the middle. I think 7w8 * 8w7 has a sense of no shame. Same way 7w6 & 6w7 are often inspired to be helpful, like 2s. Traditional lines may not connect them, but the connection is intuitively there, in my opinion. What do you think?


IME, the "shadow" types are indicated by replacing the inner lines with three triangles (I call them tricenters). So for example, the shadow types for type 7 are types 1 and 4. In other words, types 1 and 4 are often the internal shadow experience that type 7 is trying to avoid or override (e.g., type 1 limitation to a single course of action and type 4 discomfort with getting mired in emotions).

What you seem to be talking about is something I used to refer to as "complemental types". You can sometimes see a complemental aspect that the third type adds to the type/wing pair. An easy to see example is the dutiful 6w5 where duty can be seen as coming from the type 1 sense of behaving appropriately.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

enneathusiast said:


> I'm guessing that you're talking about my type. I work on the premise that each of us is all nine types and the end-goal is about discovering that in yourself. You start off identifying yourself as a one or more types in order to see where you're stuck most in your habit of being but once that's been loosened up a bit you start exploring the other aspects of yourself that had been ignored because you've been so preoccupied with that particular habit of being.


So hippy, although I think you're right in that building yourself up is more than being just your type.



> IME, the "shadow" types are indicated by replacing the inner lines with three triangles (I call them tricenters). So for example, the shadow types for type 7 are types 1 and 4. In other words, types 1 and 4 are often the internal shadow experience that type 7 is trying to avoid or override (e.g., type 1 limitation to a single course of action and type 4 discomfort with getting mired in emotions).
> 
> What you seem to be talking about is something I used to refer to as "complemental types". You can sometimes see a complemental aspect that the third type adds to the type/wing pair. An easy to see example is the dutiful 6w5 where duty can be seen as coming from the type 1 sense of behaving appropriately.


I like concept you prosed with 7, 4, & 1; and I read about it in another link you shared, in an earlier post. I've read everything you've said, I just needed to corner you down, like an enneprechaun, to make you give me your enneagold. 

Between 7 & 8, an isosceles triangle can be drawn to 3. That's why the complementary "essence" of whom I am, is defined between those three, with 9 & 5 playing complementary roles. A tritype is therefore, a formula, that indicates emotional preferences and situational performances.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

enneathusiast said:


> \ I work on the premise that each of us is all nine types and the end-goal is about discovering that in yourself. You start off identifying yourself as a one or more types in order to see where you're stuck most in your habit of being but once that's been loosened up a bit you start exploring the other aspects of yourself that had been ignored because you've been so preoccupied with that particular habit of being.



That is a great way of putting it. The parrot missed the nuances of what this means. 

I am fascinated right now by 4. I have the least understanding of this, although my dancing is probaby an extension of my 4ness.


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## Carpentet810 (Nov 17, 2013)

OH tritypes.. I read Tryptamines wehn I glanced over it initially.


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## Parrot (Feb 22, 2015)

drmiller100 said:


> That is a great way of putting it. The parrot missed the nuances of what this means.
> 
> I am fascinated right now by 4. I have the least understanding of this, although my dancing is probaby an extension of my 4ness.


I actually did like what he said. I started this thread as a means to learn through debate, which is an ENTP thing to do.

I had to corner him down because I liked what he was talking about, but I needed more direct answers.


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