# Integration/Disintegration Skepticism



## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Hello, everyone. I've always been incredibly skeptical about the directions of integration and disintegration on the Enneagram, since I haven't seen anything that really backs it up other than idealized suppositions and eye-catching flow charts. 








As a 4, I have actually observed myself acting clingy and manipulative when I'm at my worst, like the 2. This probably isn't true of every 4, but it makes enough sense considering human psychology that lonely, miserable people would reach out to their loved ones by any means necessary.

That being said, I resent any suggestion that I should try to channel my inner 1 in order to accomplish anything (no offense to any 1s here!). I tend to associate 1s with a few of my relatives who I consciously strive _not_ to be like, and I view my own occasionally 1-ish behavior as overwhelmingly negative. Yet I'm supposed to _try_ to be more like one, because I'm obviously too stuck in my own emotions to ever get anything done?? 

Complicating matters is the fact that I'm an INFP, so my inner 1 manifests in the dark, hidden Te side of my personality that only comes out under stress. But that's a _desirable_ thing, according to this? 

Is anyone else offended or skeptical about this theory of the Enneagram?


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## Brains (Jul 22, 2015)

The integration lines are supposedly about adopting parts of the healthier aspects of a type's mindset. An integrating 2 or 9 isn't supposed to draw on the needy aspects of 4/3, the integration represents finding a healthy sense of one's own needs and wants and pursuing them directly instead of overrelating to others.

Likewise, the move to 1 isn't about turning into a neurotic OCD monster, but it's rather saying "okay, I know what I want or need to do. Time to go and do something about it instead of wallowing in self-pity."


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

@throughtheroses


I am of the opinion that our ultimate goal is to personify (as best as we can) all the types. I figure the healthier we are, the more we can pull from the positive sides of all our wings/lines-of-connection/tritypes. Conversely, when we are less healthy, we pull from the negatives sides of these things.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

I think of the lines more like drawing attitudes towards the world from them so a healthy 4 would draw from the energy of 1 to see that things are already perfect and fine as they are from type 1 which 4 struggles with because they think that they and the world is flawed in some way. Similarly, unhealthy 4 takes on the prideful qualities of 2 and turn bombastic and constantly seek affirmation from others to validate them and their identities and they may begin to dote on people like a 2 in order to get that from them.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@Brains @Entropic

Thank you for your responses. I already know that on a logical level, and I have researched this a bit. The problem is that I'm not a terribly logical person (shocking, I know) and I can't help but feel offended by any suggestion that tells me to not act like myself. Why can't I just strive to be the ultimate healthy 4? Why am I encouraged to summon my inner 1 instead? The arrows don't even mean anything; they're just lines on a circle that someone attached numbers and directions to. Is any of this actually backed up with psychology?

@Entropic, how do you feel about the 8's directions of stress and growth? Do you associate 5s with bad behavior and 2s with good, even just in your own life? @tanstaafl28, what about the 5's integration and disintegration? Is this something that you two consciously strive towards in your lives, if I may ask?

Also @tanstaafl28, you sound like a true 5w6 in your post.


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## Lord Bullingdon (Aug 9, 2014)

Let me address your concerns while adding my own perspective.



> As a 4, I have actually observed myself acting clingy and manipulative when I'm at my worst, like the 2. This probably isn't true of every 4, but it makes enough sense considering human psychology that lonely, miserable people would reach out to their loved ones by any means necessary.


It may seem like a human commonality to you, but it doesn't to me. I'm very spiteful when lonely and miserable. I tend to tell myself I didn't need them anyway and that other humans are lame. Or I sit there alone, pining away and never once reach out or make my needs known...my logic being that they don't really care enough for it to matter anyway.

I mean, you're right to some degree, because broadly speaking, the types are also human themes. But not everyone identifies with everything in the same way.



> That being said, I resent any suggestion that I should try to channel my inner 1 in order to accomplish anything (no offense to any 1s here!). I tend to associate 1s with a few of my relatives who I consciously strive not to be like, and I view my own occasionally 1-ish behavior as overwhelmingly negative. Yet I'm supposed to try to be more like one, because I'm obviously too stuck in my own emotions to ever get anything done??
> 
> Complicating matters is the fact that I'm an INFP, so my inner 1 manifests in the dark, hidden Te side of my personality that only comes out under stress. But that's a desirable thing, according to this?


I resent being told I should try to be like my point of integration, too, because I see much of it as detestable and everything I don't want to be/can't do. But luckily, no one says you should try to be like that. In fact, Riso and Hudson specifically say you should NOT try to emulate your point of integration. Instead, you should work on making yourself the best you can be, and its healthy qualities will arise in you naturally.

(Also, small note--Te is not the same as enneagram type 1. If you think they correlate in you, you can always work on developing your Te. But they're not necessarily the same...ENFP and INFJ 4s have a 1-connection, too.)



> Is anyone else offended or skeptical about this theory of the Enneagram?


Not offended, but I can understand what you mean by that. It seems to me, though, that it's incomplete. Although I've experienced disintegration, I can also attest that we draw influences from both connecting points. Always use your own observations and come to your own conclusions on it.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

I think we integrate and disintegrate both ways, but I do think there is truth for ME in saying I grow towards 2. and I think it is TOTALLY true for me that it was not obvious the lines of growth.
As an 8, I try to get shit done. But what I choose to work on has changed. I do want to help people. and I do want to help people be the most they can be. It shows in my occupation, it shows in my interaction with others, it shows in what has become apparent o me.
However, it was NOT obvious to me. It was hidden, and I denied it, and I disagreed. But because of enneagram, and because the rest of the theory works, I looked closely, for a while at it, and considered my growth towards 2. And it became apparent to me. 
It is obvious to you that "lonely miserable people reach out to their loved ones." Not to me. When I am wounded, I retreat to gaining knowledge, and numbing myself by learning about inane shit like enneagram and MBTI. 

Likewise, and sent with friendship to my buddy Tans, when he is feeling healthy as a 5, he starts looking at his environment and adjusting things around him to make it the way which suits him. He lives more in the moment and in reality. 

I also believe when I am healthy, I grow and become stronger in both my core, my disintegration point, and my integration point. So, when healthy, I pick up healthier attributes of a 5, and 8, and a 2. When I'm beat up and torn down, I act more like a fucked up 5, 8, and 2 and demonstrate those attributes.

I'm pushing here. But, to the OP, when you are feeling good, do you look inward to ways to improve yourself? Do you focus on ways to make yourself a better person, to drive yourself to be better? Pick up and perfect new skills and techniques?


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@LordBullingdon

Thank you for humoring me. That's a very interesting way of looking at all of this, and I appreciate your contribution to the thread.

(Also, I know that Te does not equal type 1 at large, but that's how/when it tends to manifest in me.)
[HR][/HR] @drmiller100

Thank you for your response as well. When I'm feeling good, it actually manifests in a positive, 3-ish energy of getting things done and more importantly, ahem, gaining public admiration/acclaim for it. Similar to the 1, but different in motivation. I'm not trying to change the world, really, and I'm not a perfectionist. I don't necessarily seek to improve myself, because I know that all the motivation I need is already locked in here somewhere. Simply getting things done is associated with several types, not just the 1. Also, that bit that you posted about perfecting new skills could also be associated with 5. All that I'm saying is that these directions of integration and disintegration come across to me as arbitrary, overly vague, and similar to astrology for those very reasons.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

From one Frustration type to another, rest assured you will act like yourself whether a theory tells you to or not  

The enneagram has little to contribute in terms of explaining "how you should be" aside from helping people who have those feelings and suffer from them let go of them a bit more than they may have been able to do on their own. "Integration" is a debated topic in the enneagram, because the need for having a diagram to begin with is itself contested. 

With that, you were spot on when you said that the best route would be to be the absolute best, and most at-ease type 4 you can possibly be. Especially since you won't ever become a 2 , a 1, or any other type. The theory happens to promote the idea that doing this would make you look like a healthy type 1, but instead of "transforming into" a type 1, what will actually happen is a letting go of some of the parts of a being a 4 that cause you suffering in some way. In so doing, you would be accessing part of yourself that has always existed, but been clouded by the self-image, various ego mechanisms, delusions, and biases that type 4 has funneled you into assuming to be reality. At a high level this would work similarly for all enneatypes. 


I've always felt that the idea of (dis)integration was a little too symmetric to be exactly as-is. Along with that, times where my worst has looked like both unhealthy 4 AND 7. As well as times when I've been "stressed" as texts talk about, but acting more like an unhealthy 1 than a 4. And, times when "stressed" wouldn't be the best word to describe my inner state, yet still acted 4-ish.


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## enneathusiast (Dec 15, 2012)

throughtheroses said:


> All that I'm saying is that these directions of integration and disintegration come across to me as arbitrary, overly vague, and similar to astrology for those very reasons.


I agree. The directions of integration/disintegration are only taught by one school of the Enneagram types (The Enneagram Institute). The majority of schools/authors of the Enneagram types don't use that theory. Most seem to be leaning toward simply saying that the types connected by the lines offer an additional influence upon your personality. 

Unfortunately, there seems to be a bias on the Internet toward the Enneagram Institute interpretation of the types (they've been very successful at marketing themselves on the Internet). People too often don't know which school's interpretation they're looking at and assume it to be representative of the Enneagram types as a whole.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@Figure

Thank you for your response. I'm glad I didn't offend you, since I see that you're a 1.  I really like what you wrote about your interpretation of the directions of integration, and I think that's a better way of looking at it than what is usually presented.

[HR][/HR]
@enneathusiast

That's very interesting about only the Enneagram Institute teaching it. I didn't know that, but it makes a lot of sense.


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

throughtheroses said:


> @*tanstaafl28*, what about the 5's integration and disintegration? Is this something that you two consciously strive towards in your lives, if I may ask?
> 
> Also @*tanstaafl28*, you sound like a true 5w6 in your post.


Thanks! I think being a social dom 5w6 makes it difficult for me because I have this urge to be a part of something bigger than myself, but only on my terms. My gut fix is also my line of connection to 8. I often tested as 7 when I was younger, so I do have an adventurous streak, but I'm just as happy to curl up with a good book! Another person with the same tritype as me described us as "Byronic Heros," and I can't help but ponder how accurate that description is. There's so much "push-pull" involved in connecting with both 7 and 8. The actual "blind spot" for me is my heart center. I have no natural line of connection to it. I think this explains why 5s can seem so detached from their emotions. 

When you analyze it, the types with the most naturally "balanced" lines of connection is 3, 6, and 9. No matter which one of those three you are, you have a type in both of the other centers. 

Next is 1 (4-7) and 8 (5-2), but that only works for types 1 and 8. 

If you're a 2, your lines of connection are 4 and 8, no mind center connection.

If you're a 4, your lines of connection are 1 and 2, no mind center connection.

If you're a 5, your lines of connection are 7 and 8, no heart center connection.

If you're a 7, your lines of connection are 1 and 5, no heart center connection

And this is how I make the argument for tritypes, but that's a topic for another post.


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## mistakenforstranger (Nov 11, 2012)

throughtheroses said:


> Hello, everyone. I've always been incredibly skeptical about the directions of integration and disintegration on the Enneagram, since I haven't seen anything that really backs it up other than idealized suppositions and eye-catching flow charts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not offended or skeptical of it, because I find it to be very true of me. I don't like being given a lecture about what I should do, but at the same time I need help in this area of life. I've been told by many people that I need to have more discipline and structure in my life, and I don't really take offense at it, because it's true, but putting it into practice and being consistent on a regular basis is difficult for me. I can see how one might be offended of it, because the integration point is threatening to the ego, but one can learn a lot from others who embody this type provided they are healthy examples and one has an open mind. With 4s and the shift to 1, it's about seeing yourself as a practical idealist, and putting one's ideals into action, rather than as only an "idealist," who dreams away their life, which 4s are prone to do. I think Riso-Hudson's suggestions are meant to connect one to the integration point. Very helpful for 4s, I would think.

https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/personal-growth-recommendations-for-enneagram-type-fours/

You're not becoming a 1, or trying to be a 1, but it's about expanding one's self experience when you become "stuck" in only one way of being. 



Brains said:


> Likewise, the move to 1 isn't about turning into a neurotic OCD monster, but it's rather saying "okay, I know what I want or need to do. Time to go and do something about it instead of wallowing in self-pity."


Yep. 

I believe this song lyrically captures the 4 shift to 1:



> No more going to the dark side
> With your flying saucer eyes
> No more falling down a wormhole
> That I have to pull you out
> ...







It's interesting because earlier in their career Radiohead had a song that was representative of the shift to 1 but seeing it in negative terms as a stifling/depressing way to live:



> Fitter, happier, more productive
> Comfortable, not drinking too much
> Regular exercise at the gym 3 days a week
> Getting on better with your associate employee contemporaries
> ...









Entropic said:


> I think of the lines more like drawing attitudes towards the world from them so a healthy 4 would draw from the energy of 1 to see that things are already perfect and fine as they are from type 1 which 4 struggles with because they think that they and the world is flawed in some way. Similarly, unhealthy 4 takes on the prideful qualities of 2 and turn bombastic and constantly seek affirmation from others to validate them and their identities and they may begin to dote on people like a 2 in order to get that from them.


I would agree with this in terms of shifting to Type 1, which gives them a better sense of "objective" reality. Rollo May talks about this in his book "Man's Search for Himself":

"Freedom is involved when we accept the realities not by blind necessity but by choice. This means that the acceptance of limitations need not at all be a "giving up," but can and should be a constructive act of freedom; and it may well be that such a choice will have more creative results for the person than if he had to struggle against any limitation whatever. The man who is devoted to freedom does not waste time fighting reality; instead, as Kierkegaard remarked, he "extols reality." 

For me, the shift to 2 comes out in ways of: I can't take care of myself, and expecting/needing help, or a giving up/hiding aspects of my identity to please others, so they won't leave me, or doing for others in order to prove I'm "good" or to be liked more in order to fill the emptiness. I think this song is also a pretty good example of 4 going to 2. Sorry for all the Radiohead.


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## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

throughtheroses said:


> @Brains @Entropic
> 
> Thank you for your responses. I already know that on a logical level, and I have researched this a bit. The problem is that I'm not a terribly logical person (shocking, I know) and I can't help but feel offended by any suggestion that tells me to not act like myself. Why can't I just strive to be the ultimate healthy 4? Why am I encouraged to summon my inner 1 instead? The arrows don't even mean anything; they're just lines on a circle that someone attached numbers and directions to. Is any of this actually backed up with psychology?


I think of integration being less to do with enneagram at all, personally, and I think of it more as trying to integrate aspects of yourself that you repress or deny in order to become a more wholesome person.



> @Entropic, how do you feel about the 8's directions of stress and growth? Do you associate 5s with bad behavior and 2s with good, even just in your own life?


I don't associate either point with good or bad behavior because I don't think of the enneagram as being much about behaviors as much as I think of each point as attitudes or life strategies, if you will, which color the way we view and approach the world. 

So for me, 5 is being drawn from especially when I feel very strongly affected by something in a negative way, so I become withdrawn, reclusive, may adopt a very cynical attitude about the world and life etc. I also get very focused on preserving my own resources such as my time and energy. I feel this logic of "it's mine and no one else has the right to take it away from me" and similarly, I can feel that I am constantly lacking so I need to get things from my environment, that it is being withheld, so there's this idea of needing to wrestle it away from its grasp. Instead of caring for other people, I keep to myself.

For me, type 2 is the opposite of this. It's more of a "sharing is caring" attitude, and needing to help and cater to other people, to be receptive and giving of yourself to them. I don't experience this side all that much outside of a more caring way of being because I am still developing it I guess, but it comes with a perception of the world actually being a good place to be in and you can trust others to satisfy your needs instead of thinking it will never provide you so you need to get it yourself.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

I agree with @throughtheroses . It's so random.

I'm a Four, and feel like I have a bit of each type (of some types a lot more than others), both positive and negative aspects. 
I personally have a hard time with Ones, and I do like type Twos. I like recognizing a few Two-traits in me. That's the opposite of the theory, because people are meant to like the type at their integration arrow.

Also, according to this logic, when I meet someone with strong Six and Nine, he's either extremely healthy (if he's a Six and has moved a lot on the line of integration) or he's extremely unhealthy (if he's a Nine and has moved in the other direction). That does not make sense!

I prefer to ignore these lines completely. But then I'd have to drop the cool symbol ...


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

I am skeptical of people who aren't skeptical of enneagram. lol. How could you not be? 


What is "healthy" first of all? Who is to make that claim? Who decides what is "healthy" for people? 


The reason that people believe in these particular integrations and disintegrations is because there is a plethora of literature making a case for it. If there was tons of books saying 8 integrates to 5, then people would believe 8 integrates to 5. I would bet money on it. What you have is one prosecutor making a case for one side with no defense picking it apart. Like Dostoevsky said, "Psychology is a double edged sword." We only see one edge here. One person can look at a set of facts and and come to totally different, logically consistent conclusions. Like in the novel this lawyer takes all the facts of the case and constructs them into a narrative that shows this guy is a murderer. It is a logical argument. Then the other lawyer takes the same facts to show the man is not a murderer. Double edged sword. The numbers dissolve and you are talking psychology and ethics. Other shit.

But it is too symmetrical as somebody said. Reality is curved. 

“Nature creates curved lines while humans create straight lines.” 
― Hideki Yukawa


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## BelladonnaPoe (May 26, 2016)

I think they are arbitrary as well. I think its silly to make broad assumptions on a persons healthy and unhealthy habits and their causes. Then you have to factor in tri-types. Since I'm a 5-8-4 does that mean I have to act like an 8-2-1? That doesn't make much practical sense to me.


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## ColdWindsRising (Feb 11, 2016)

True. I believe people have aspects of different types, but I don't believe in any of the classifiers such as wings, tritypes and (dis)integration arrows.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

ColdWindsRising said:


> I'm a Four, and feel like I have a bit of each type (of some types a lot more than others), both positive and negative aspects.
> I personally have a hard time with Ones, and I do like type Twos. I like recognizing a few Two-traits in me. That's the opposite of the theory, because people are meant to like the type at their integration arrow.
> 
> Also, according to this logic, when I meet someone with strong Six and Nine, he's either extremely healthy (if he's a Six and has moved a lot on the line of integration) or he's extremely unhealthy (if he's a Nine and has moved in the other direction). That does not make sense!
> ...


I totally agree. 

[HR][/HR]


FearAndTrembling said:


> What is "healthy" first of all? Who is to make that claim? Who decides what is "healthy" for people?
> 
> 
> The reason that people believe in these particular integrations and disintegrations is because there is a plethora of literature making a case for it. If there was tons of books saying 8 integrates to 5, then people would believe 8 integrates to 5. I would bet money on it. What you have is one prosecutor making a case for one side with no defense picking it apart. Like Dostoevsky said, "Psychology is a double edged sword." We only see one edge here. One person can look at a set of facts and and come to totally different, logically consistent conclusions. Like in the novel this lawyer takes all the facts of the case and constructs them into a narrative that shows this guy is a murderer. It is a logical argument. Then the other lawyer takes the same facts to show the man is not a murderer. Double edged sword. The numbers dissolve and you are talking psychology and ethics. Other shit.


I especially agree with what you said about the arbitrariness of the integrations. It mostly seems like they're supposed to encourage the "harder" types to become "softer" and vice versa, but the specific pairs are completely random. 

For example, let's all assume that we need to get the 4s out of their heads in order to accomplish anything. They could therefore integrate to at least 1, 3, or 8 on that level. But 4s also need to stop being so selfish and think of others... So maybe 2, 6, or 9 could work as well. Get more in touch with their logical side? 5. Have more fun and stop being so miserable? 7. Each of the types has positive attributes that could be incorporated by _anyone_. Why should we restrict ourselves for the sake of a snappy diagram?

[HR][/HR]
@BelladonnaPoe

Exactly. Am I supposed to act like a 1-5-3? And what about wings? 1(6)-5(9)-3(2)? That makes no sense whatsoever.


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## FearAndTrembling (Jun 5, 2013)

throughtheroses said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> [HR][/HR]
> 
> ...



And that is how the larger idea is true. The details are irrelevant and I don't waste my time with them. The larger idea that is true is that some people need to soften, some need to harden, etc. We need different Gods. How the theorists want to categorize how all this stuff supposedly happens. I am gonna quote William James here. How people who sit around and talk about the attributes of God, like his perfection, all these qualities and logical arguments, causation, time and space, are wasting their time. What use is such a god to anyone? These classifiers. I have no use for all these deep classifications. The "systematic theologians". 


*In the middle of the century just past, Mayne Reid was the great writer of books of out-of-door adventure. He was forever extolling the hunters and field-observers of living animals' habits, and keeping up a fire of invective against the * closet-naturalists,' as he called them, the collectors and classifiers, and handlers of skeletons and skins. When I was a boy, I used to think that a closet-naturalist must be the vilest type of wretch under the sun. 

But surely the systematic theologians are the closet-naturalists of the deity, even in Captain Mayne Reid's sense. What is their deduction of metaphysical attributes but a shuffling and matching of pedantic dictionary-adjectives, aloof from morals, aloof from human needs, something that might be worked out from the mere word * God' by one of those logical machines of wood and brass which recent ingenuity has contrived as well as by a man of flesh and blood. They have the trail of the serpent over them. One feels that in the theologians' hands, they are only a set of titles obtained by a mechanical manipulation of synonyms; verbality has stepped into the place of vision, professionalism into that of life. Instead of bread we have a stone ; instead of a fish, a serpent. Did such a conglomeration of abstract terms give really the gist of our knowledge of the deity, schools of theology might indeed continue to flourish, but religion, vital religion, would have taken its flight fromthis world. What keeps religion going is something else than abstract definitions and systems of concatenated ■'X adjectives, and something different from faculties of theology and their professors.


*

and on many Gods:


* Each, from his peculiar angle of observation, takes in a certain sphere of fact and trouble, which each must deal with in a unique manner. One of us must soften himself, another must harden himself; one must yield a point, another must stand firm,- in order the better to defend the position assigned him. If an Emerson were forced to be a Wesley, or a Moody forced to be a Whitman, the total human consciousness of the divine would suffer. The divine can mean no single quality, it must mean a group of qualities, by being champions of which in alternation, different men may all find worthy missions. Each attitude being a syllable in human nature's total message, it takes the whole of us to spell the meaning out completely. So a 'god of battles' must be allowed to be the god for one kind of person, a god of peace and heaven and home, the god for another. 
*


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## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

In my opinion - I was just thinking about it today - you don't necessarily adore everything about your integration type, and it's not necessary that you have bad associations with your disintegration type either. There's the 'soul child' theory, that for instance a 6 is a disenchanted/wounded 9. So for instance a 6 carries this wound in their soul, a 'memory' of being a 9, believing that everything will go right, living in internal peace, etc. but then discovering that things aren't so peachy, that there are threats to their peace, and in my opinion this can make 6 feel quite cynical about 9s; "don't they realize the other shoe is going to drop??". Like when you encounter someone younger than yourself who sounds a lot like yourself at that age -- you are usually more annoyed by their flaws or naivities than you are with someone who's equally flawed/naive but not in your same way) 

So with 4s, I expect that the 1's fixation on making things perfect might especially annoy a 4 because they 'remember' learning that things _can't_ be perfect, that's still in a sense a fresh wound. Whereas a 2 might roll their eyes at a 4 because they 'remember' discovering that authenticity won't be appreciated or that there's something false about it. And so on.

Putting 'remember' in quotations because I personally don't think the soul child thing refers to a literal point in childhood, though I'm not sure. Ran this little theory past my mother just now and she said the 4 -->2 thing actually did sound like a transition as a child, so maybe...though I'd guess the base type is always there, just maybe some people have more connection to the integration point as a child or something.

edit: but still, the integration point is good, and I think it's more than just '4s will get stuff done if they go to 1' but rather a side effect of overcoming/lessening the emphasis on the fixation of the type

I don't think 4s should concentrate on trying to be more 1like, they should concentrate on trying to be a better 4, overcoming the 4s particular challenges, and then some of the 1ishness will follow)

I think it's more likely people will romanticize their wings, btw) Because it's something that people will lean on, be influenced by, without having a lot of the really dirty parts thrown in)


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Phoenix Virtue said:


> So with 4s, I expect that the 1's fixation on making things perfect might especially annoy a 4 because they 'remember' learning that things _can't_ be perfect, that's still in a sense a fresh wound. Whereas a 2 might roll their eyes at a 4 because they 'remember' discovering that authenticity won't be appreciated or that there's something false about it. And so on.


Hm, may not be a literal point in childhood for everyone, but it kind of was for me. Like a _gradual_ understanding, as I grew.

And maybe off-topic, but when people talk about unfairness and trying to make things more just and fair (perfect) for everyone, I have a naturally dismissive attitude-- like, "Life _isn't_ fair, what do you expect?". Not sure if it's related, but.. interesting to think about.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Philathea said:


> And maybe off-topic, but when people talk about unfairness and trying to make things more just and fair (perfect) for everyone, I have a naturally dismissive attitude-- like, "Life _isn't_ fair, what do you expect?". Not sure if it's related, but.. interesting to think about.


again, wandering a bit..... one of the things about enneagram is how you answer the question "is life fair?"

My answer: Life is as fair as I make it. (smiles.......)


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## d e c a d e n t (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, just because life isn't fair doesn't mean it shouldn't be.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Distortions said:


> Well, just because life isn't fair doesn't mean it shouldn't be.


(Thanks for tagging me XD)

I agree, mostly. Though it reminds me of this picture:


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## Eclipsed (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes, integration/disintegration lines can seem arbitrary. Such is the nature of the system. What about the enneagram follows a logical framework? It's esoteric and certainly not based in science... so arguing that integration/disintegration types seem to be chosen randomly is a bit redundant. 

Also, integration is not about taking on the qualities that you most admire. That couldn't really be called growth because nothing is learned as a result. It is about letting go of your fixation. As a 7, I lack focus due to my need to avoid feeling deprived, so it makes sense that I take on type 5 traits when I integrate.

Disintegration happens when you cling more tightly to your fixation, and due to imbalance, develop self-destructive behaviours. 7 will then compulsively indulge and self-punish (line to 1)- yet gain no control over their behaviour because they are still so attached to their vice of gluttony. Unhealthy type 1 becomes eager to provide the seven with necessary discipline, which can temporarily sober the seven, but breeds self-hatred and contributes to the feeling of a loss of control, which leads to more self-punishment and etc. etc. The less healthy you are, the more cyclical your behaviour becomes.

The same logic applies to any other type. I only use seven as an example because it is the one I know best. All in all, I think you have to find what works for you.
@Phoenix Virtue brought up a great point with soul children. That part of the theory is a big part of why I'm so sure of my type. Definitely worth reading about, and also, great post.

Also, @Animal, I was hoping you might have some more specific thoughts on how 4 works in this manner? Or any other fours... I understand it well enough but I'd love to hear about it personally. I'm sure it will help the OP, as well.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

throughtheroses said:


> That being said, I resent any suggestion that I should try to channel my inner 1 in order to accomplish anything (no offense to any 1s here!).


But it's not suggested that we must channel an inner 1 to accomplish *anything*. That would be nightmarish. However, supposedly, there are certain lessons or attitudes or motivation that a One might have, which we tend to lack or be blind to in ourselves... adopting those, mastering them, can help us. We don't literally turn into Ones. And if we are doing this because we are healthy, we certainly don't become like the unhealthy One we try to avoid. 

So for me, I struggle with this because I am so anti-perfectionist (well, actually, I am very hard on myself and hold myself to high and unrealistic standards -- but -- I am not a perfectionist in the conventional sense. I don't mind experimenting, being sloppy, making do... and I HATE pressure to conform to other peoples' standards, especially when they don't value the same things as I do). But Fours are said to have strong values, which we take very seriously. This is something we have in common with Ones, and part of why there's this connection. The thing is, Fours basically identify with our values and feelings so strongly, we believe in some sense we actually ARE those things. To become healthier, more integrated with One ideals, is to step a little bit outside ourselves and pursue what matters from a more external standpoint. Which isn't to say One Values aren't subjective - but - they are able to actually conceive of reformation, believe that there are things better and good that are possible to obtain -- unlike Fours who tend to always find something missing, no matter what, because we are gauging it from how well something fits inside of us. And we think there is something wrong inside of us.





> Complicating matters is the fact that I'm an INFP, so my inner 1 manifests in the dark, hidden Te side of my personality that only comes out under stress.


This resonates. But I don't think what you're referring to us actual integration to One. This function is just part of how we make decisions and carry out information - sometimes a bit flawed and strained due to it being our inferior function - it does not have to do with transcending our current plights as Fours. 

I think you need to stop thinking of specific Ones that you know, because that's what gets me, too. Break and challenge pre-conceived notions of One stereotypes.

Also keep in mind that our Four stuff is due to defensive mechanisms -- often an unhealthy person will feel repelled by things that cause dissonance. So the ways in which Oneness might make us feel insecure might contribute to our resistance of it. For example, being told I'm not good enough or that I need to do things a certain way when I really just want freedom to explore and express things my own way -- I hold that value dearly, rely on it too much, so I get irritated/insecure/ashamed when I feel it's threatened. This problem is mostly due to yet underdeveloped parts of my person, though... otherwise it wouldn't bother me.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

As a complete, utter and total skeptic of the lines of integration/disintegration, let me provide you with some proof of such. For E8s, we purportedly integrate to two and disintegrate to five. But if you consider the nature of eights as gut types, we should be thinking more, gathering more information so we have a better understanding of the world around us, rather than reacting without sufficient knowledge. That's the direction that I naturally gravitate towards as an ENTJ.

Now for the proof. This is the description of an enneatype five and eight pairing.

https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/enneagram-type-5-type-8/



> *These two types bring to each other complementary and reciprocal talents—just what the other needs* but is not necessarily aware of.


Fives when integrating move eight. This is logically consistent with the pairing description. But for some reason, eights integrate to two and disintegrate to five, logically inconsistent with the pairing description.


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## Philathea (Feb 16, 2015)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet- but I'm pretty sure integration and disintegration can occur along BOTH lines of connection. The idea that you can only integrate or disintegrate to one was a result of someone mishearing Naranjo- or atleast that's what I read on the Fauvre's facebook page. Has anyone else heard this?


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Quernus said:


> B(well, actually, I am very hard on myself and hold myself to high and unrealistic standards -


this is the essential definition of a 1. 
perfectionism is a "symptom" or sign from the outside of someone who is a 1. 
A 1 uses their inner anger to forge themselves to become even better. As a 4 integrating towards 1, you will use something else to drive you. don't know what it is.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Duo said:


> As a complete, utter and total skeptic of the lines of integration/disintegration, let me provide you with some proof of such. For E8s, we purportedly integrate to two and disintegrate to five. But if you consider the nature of eights as gut types, we should be thinking more, gathering more information so we have a better understanding of the world around us, rather than reacting without sufficient knowledge. That's the direction that I naturally gravitate towards as an ENTJ.
> .


There are 3 sections, and one theory is some people want to "integrate", or grow to encompass all 9 types. 
As an 8, 5 is easy for me. 6 I can do when warranted, 7 natural enough I considered it for long as my core. 

2? 4? Fuck those are alien, weird, strange things to me. I fought that I needed any of that shit. Yet I keep headed that way. Hard, invisible, scary stuff, but yet I keep headed that way.

Integration is not supposed to be easy. It is not supposed to be obvious.


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> There are 3 sections, and one theory is some people want to "integrate", *or grow to encompass all 9 types. *
> As an 8, 5 is easy for me. 6 I can do when warranted, 7 natural enough I considered it for long as my core.
> 
> 2? 4? Fuck those are alien, weird, strange things to me. I fought that I needed any of that shit. Yet I keep headed that way. Hard, invisible, scary stuff, but yet I keep headed that way.
> ...


Well that's a major stretch, relative to Enneagram theory. If that were the case, why not the integration to four? If five's so easy to integrate, why is the movement considered a disintegration and yet, in the pair description, describes how these two types lack each other's skill sets, hence become a complementary pairing?

Your explanation makes no logical sense.


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## drmiller100 (Dec 3, 2011)

Duo said:


> Well that's a major stretch, relative to Enneagram theory. If that were the case, why not the integration to four? If five's so easy to integrate, why is the movement considered a disintegration and yet, in the pair description, describes how these two types lack each other's skill sets, hence become a complementary pairing?
> 
> Your explanation makes no logical sense.


We have different perspectives. From your point of view, is it possible I have more understanding of enneagram than you?


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## incision (May 23, 2010)

drmiller100 said:


> We have different perspectives. From your point of view, is it possible I have more understanding of enneagram than you?


Rather than use the fallacious appeal to authority, perhaps you can answer my questions?


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

@drmiller100

You seem like the kind of person that has to be right all the time. Are you sure you're not a 1 (or 5)? Just being naturally combative doesn't make someone an 8. Also, other ENTPs I know aren't nearly as unemotional, aggressive, and stubborn as you appear to be.

Why do you always posit that you know more than the other person? It makes it very difficult to interact with you. It seems that your default reaction to someone having a different perspective is, "Okay, you think differently, but don't you know that you're wrong?"

No offense is intended by this post; I'm merely making a series of observations.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

drmiller100 said:


> this is the essential definition of a 1.
> perfectionism is a "symptom" or sign from the outside of someone who is a 1.
> A 1 uses their inner anger to forge themselves to become even better. As a 4 integrating towards 1, you will use something else to drive you. don't know what it is.


Yes. Though I don't do it because I believe there is some ...objectively superior way for me to be, and I don't worry about being corrupt. I just get embarrassed when I'm not portraying a certain image (I don't want JUST to portray the image, I DO want to actually be these things... but largely for selfish, image-oriented and shame-based reasons). My version of self-criticism isn't: "oh, this isn't perfect, this can be better, I need to reform it, reformation is possible, I have failed The Ideal". It's more "Oh, I hate myself, look at how inferior and inadequate I am, how far I've fallen from My Ideal(ized self)".

I don't know what else I will use to drive me, either. Other than a sense that there is more important shit out there than just what I'm feeling. Maybe a more externalized value system, a true belief that I can help reform situations or uphold my ideals for the sake of doing so --- instead of just a deep desire to "encompass" everything I do on an emotional, personal, subjective and often skewed level. The drive to uphold my values must somehow shift, to come from a less self-absorbed motivation.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Quernus said:


> Yes. Though I don't do it because I believe there is some ...objectively superior way for me to be, and I don't worry about being corrupt. I just get embarrassed when I'm not portraying a certain image (I don't want JUST to portray the image, I DO want to actually be these things... but largely for selfish, image-oriented and shame-based reasons). I don't feel this way because "oh, this isn't perfect, this can be better, I need to reform it, reformation is possible, I have failed the ideal". It's more "Oh, I hate myself, look at how inferior and inadequate I am, how far I've fallen from my idealized self".


This sounds just like my theory that at least I (a Four) move toward the Three, not One at all. I wonder if any other Fours can relate?


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

throughtheroses said:


> This sounds just like my theory that at least I (a Four) move toward the Three, not One at all. I wonder if any other Fours can relate?


In what way do you figure this has to do with moving towards three? I don't see that at all. I mean, I distinguished between One perfectionism and Four perfectionism to highlight the differences, and how we might be able to move towards a healthier One perspective.

Though maybe it has to do with your Three wing. Fours are right next to Threes, obviously we have some connection to Three, it might influence us, but I don't think it's the same as integration.

What I described is, in my opinion, not Threeish at all. It has nothing to do with externally imposed standards or affirmation --- more to do with perceived externalized values. Living for something greater than ones own image, not just relating everything to "who I am" and "what I'm worth" but rather seeing a cause or ideal as worthwhile in and of itself. Not just in how it relates to you personally.

Now this is talking particularly healthy Ones. Average and Unhealthy Ones have plenty of hangups -- but --- they do not gauge success by others' standards, they do not live for affirmation of others, but rather by their own (sometimes warped) standards, their own affirmations.


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## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Hmm. Maybe I misunderstood your post?

I didn't really mean that Fours necessarily "integrate" towards the Three, just that there's more of a dialogue there than most people would expect. I also think that "disintegration" to the Three is equally likely, and your post exhibited some negative thought processes that sounded extremely Three-ish to me. Have you ever considered that your own personal disintegration may bear some trademarks of the Three?



Quernus said:


> I just get embarrassed when I'm not portraying a certain image (I don't want JUST to portray the image, I DO want to actually be these things... but largely for selfish, image-oriented and shame-based reasons). My version of self-criticism isn't: "oh, this isn't perfect, this can be better, I need to reform it, reformation is possible, I have failed The Ideal". It's more "Oh, I hate myself, look at how inferior and inadequate I am, how far I've fallen from My Ideal(ized self)"


You could easily call it a hidden, lesser Three wing revealing itself in times of distress, but I think your post elicits some interesting questions about integration and disintegration theory. The part that I just quoted really does reflect the Three, not Four or Two. Wouldn't someone adhering to the strict directions of [dis]integration theory assume that all Fours show more of a Two influence at their worst? 



Quernus said:


> What I described is, in my opinion, not Threeish at all. It has nothing to do with externally imposed standards or affirmation --- more to do with perceived externalized values. Living for something greater than ones own image, not just relating everything to "who I am" and "what I'm worth" but rather seeing a cause or ideal as worthwhile in and of itself. Not just in how it relates to you personally.


See, I read the phrase "perceived externalized values" and immediately think "_Three!_".  That may just be an interpretation difference of the Enneagram, though. Sorry if I've offended you at all; I'm not intending to.


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## Quernus (Dec 8, 2011)

throughtheroses said:


> Hmm. Maybe I misunderstood your post?
> 
> I didn't really mean that Fours necessarily "integrate" towards the Three, just that there's more of a dialogue there than most people would expect. I also think that "disintegration" to the Three is equally likely, and your post exhibited some negative thought processes that sounded extremely Three-ish to me. Have you ever considered that your own personal disintegration may bear some trademarks of the Three?
> 
> ...


I'm not offended? But I think we are miscommunicating, lol. Or holding different interpretations of enneagram. Or even semantics. "Perceived external values" -- okay yes, I can see why that would sound Threeish, if you're interpreting this to mean social values, what other people find successful and impressive. But, I meant it more like seeing things as "good" or "bad", "wrong" or "right" like a One. The reason I said *perceived* external values is that a One is just as subjective as anyone else, and their moral system can look like... well, anything, but they tend to approach their values/needs for perfection as though it's some inherently (therefore external) superior way of doing things (again, not for success or for recognition, but for being correct/optimal/efficient/whatever).



> I also think that "disintegration" to the Three is equally likely, and your post exhibited some negative thought processes that sounded extremely Three-ish to me. Have you ever considered that your own personal disintegration may bear some trademarks of the Three?


I don't know. I used to not care at all about Threeish values and made a point to actually go against the status quo (assuming it didn't actually suit me). As I get older, I am starting to be more sad/ashamed about being judged for lacking conventional status and success, and I'm more likely to want to look "impressive" in areas that I don't actually personally care that much about. Whereas before, I would have brushed it off more easily, because I felt like I had a sense of who I was and where I was going (when I was tricking myself). 

But, my embarrassment of being a loser doesn't have a terribly strong hold over me - I quickly rationalize it away and spend time with people who don't care about that kind of thing, whom I expect to see through it. It's not that I actually want to be conventionally successful and impressive, and it's more that I'm tired of feeling like an outsider, who can't even sufficiently pursue my own true interests and talents in a way that feels good to me. If I could just... live a life full of pursuing my hobbies and creative pursuits, connecting and expressing myself, feeling secure in my identity and actually feel like I was getting somewhere (like sustaining myself and not needing to balance it with every day boring work responsibilities)..... or just stop feeling like something was missing.... then I would be so happy and give even less of a damn about any of the conventional successes/social expectations. 

As for disintegration - you're right, it didnt sound twoish as I wasn't describing my true disintegration patterns, just pointing out some differences between Ones and Fours. ...I become incredibly jealous, clingy, needy, and self-effacing (with a catch!) when I'm disintegrating toward two. I say with a catch because it's not just a matter of lying down and giving someone what they want - I might do that but secretly resent them, spite them, and ultimately use it against them. Sometimes I'll try to be someone I'm not, someone I think the other person will find more "desirable", but end up pulling tactics like trying to make them jealous and it's a disaster.


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## Rose for a Heart (Nov 14, 2011)

I have no idea if this has anything to do with integration to one. I have also not read any books on enneagram, so I am just basing it off of my impression of it from what I have found online. 

I was embarrassed at first to mention this because I wasn't sure if it's a "me" thing or just an "everyone" thing so lemme know lol.

I have always felt I was super perfectionistic about certain things in life, and now that I think of it most of it had to do with _expression_. Like I wanted to preserve the sanctity of the feelings and experience themselves while trying my best to convey them. Sometimes when I am trying to create something I also get lost in "_but this is not really possible/real_" perfectionism. Like it has to make _sense, _which can be quite debilitating to the whole process.

Idk if this has anything to do with 1 or any other enneatypes, but yeah. 

Also, I was thinking about the first one, and I value it as it is (and this is the most important reason), but also another motivation seems to be that if I don't do this I will feel violently ashamed. I have always had trouble determining if a feeling or attitude was coming from me or someone else, and in the past I have been repeatedly shamed for "lying," so it has become a bit of a trauma sometimes controlling my actions.


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## avs2night (Jul 2, 2016)

I think I've pretty much solved this in myself as an INFP (Fi Ne) E4w5. I'm obsessed with Te. I really desire to emulate and to better wield this cognitive function. I read your post about ADHD and I've found that getting over that was a tremendous and reinforcing experience. I feel carved out of wood. But I acquired SOOO many good habits from it all that I practically behave like an ISTJ when I'm working. But this is the only balance I've ever really know, so I'll take it.

What integration into a 1 feels like to me is sitting down to schedule my guitar practice so that I know I'm making constant progress. Otherwise, I can't play guitar and that's sh1t. (Setting an unreasonable standard as a method to achieve excellence, Nietzschean, INTJs are very commonly typed as 1s and they're possibly my most admired type.) INTp are benefactors of INFj in Socionic, if you accept the comparison.

What disintegrating into a 2 feels like is that I'm very, very angry and I don't understand my own emotions or myself anymore. Sometimes I've felt depersonalization from the stress, a 9-ish trait.

My older brother is an ISTJ E1w9 and he's a supremely good influence on me.


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