# What do SJ's think about NT's?



## Mind Swirl

Out0fAmmo said:


> I don't get along with NTs, generally speaking. I think they have the potential to be quite arrogant.
> 
> Having said that, I only know NTs online. Maybe they're nicer in person?


 Actually, every NT I've known in real life has been nice. 

I've known at least three NTs so far besides myself (INTJ, eNTJ, INTP). 
None of them are rude or blatantly arrogant. The eNTJ is opinionated, but I don't find that to be an NT trait. I've met SJs, SPs or NFs that were highly opinionated as well. They are each smart and knowledgeable in their own area of interest and are driven to get things done efficiently. They are all reasonable people and treat others with civility.


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## Scarecrow793

I was just about to start a thread about this. I get annoyed with the arrogance and anti-sensor sentiment in the rational forum a lot of the time, and I know a few cool SJs (which, given that they're like 41% of the population, there were bound to be some freaks amongst them that I could get along with XD).


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## Unassimilated

Scarecrow793 said:


> I was just about to start a thread about this. I get annoyed with the arrogance and anti-sensor sentiment in the rational forum a lot of the time, and I know a few cool SJs (which, given that they're like 41% of the population, there were bound to be some freaks amongst them that I could get along with XD).


But, but, but... I thought you were one of "us"?


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## beth x

Gee, it didn't take long for the ol' chestnut of NT arrogance to come flying in on a broomstick. Arrogance is a trait that anyone can have regardless of type. It also doesn't take long for people to say how to fix it either which brings about a whole new form of arrogance. It's a stereotype. 

I have a broad cross section of types as friends and it really doesn't matter what type they are....just as long as they are fairly down to earth, approachable and open minded. In other words, relatively healthy minded individuals. Of course it's fascinating to watch how people approach things and communicate ideas but you really can't take it any more serious than that and start ascribing general human traits and forcing them onto a particular group. It reeks of typism. It's like taking the generalities of a star sign to which people will say OMG that is so me or sit there confused thinking that they must simply have learned ways to overcome it.

Two of my favourite people are SJs and I don't understand sensor hatred at all. I just don't like close minded gits and they come in all sorts...LOL


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## Khalrin

bethdeth said:


> I have a broad cross section of types as friends and it really doesn't matter what type they are....just as long as they are fairly down to earth, approachable and open minded. In other words, relatively healthy minded individuals. Of course it's fascinating to watch how people approach things and communicate ideas but you really can't take it any more serious than that and start ascribing general human traits and forcing them onto a particular group. It reeks of typism.


This, a million times. The group of friends I'm in has recently split (irreconcilably, it seems) because of an issue that arose from lack of communication. This problem was compounded, however, by typism on the part of one person - at one point I think this person, an xNFP, even said the Je worldview is wrong and the Ji view is the only correct one.

Anyway, I agree with the notion that people should have good friends, regardless of type. I've had more bad experiences with ISFJs than with any other type, but I don't hold it against the type - just the individuals. Therefore, to answer the question in the thread: I like NTs as much as I like anyone else.


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## Chipps

WickedQueen said:


> Although they don't brag about how good they are, I can sense the "I'm a high class person" aura from them. It's a mixture of self-righteous, confidence, and arrogance. Not in extreme level, but it's there.


I laughed so hard when I read this. I cant speak for other NT's but its true for me. I know I'm not better than anyone else, but there this little place in my mind where I reign supreme over everyone around me. NT's seem to be very good at projecting this attitude. If you ask me I would attribute it to the fact that other people just dont meet the standard NTs set for themselves. It really is high. I think it seems arrogant because there is no real driving force behind it. It comes from inside that specific person. I hold myself to ridiculously high standards. I think its the need for control so its shown in the form of discipline. Mind over matter type of thing. No excuses. To other person that ideology seems extreme but thats the norm for me. Its easy for me.

I personally do know that I have that "aura". People have told me time and again throughout my life that I am intimidating when they first meet me. Doesn't bother me though. I think I avoid a lot unnecessary situations because of it. When I don't want to be bothered I shut down and block other people out. I can become very unapproachable and standoffish when I want to be. That being said, I'm actually quite charming once I open my mouth and start talking and I'm a good story teller and conversationalist so that saves me a lot. I very aware of when to project said aura and when to be an open book. Though, other NT's might not. 

Very observant of you to notice that though.


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## Pianoasis

chaeriean said:


> i like nts, a lot. i have a feeling most of them don't like sjs, though. who knows. entps are cool, i enjoy hanging out with them and all of the entps i have met have been good people. i like most of the entps on this forum that i've seen. my favorite nt group is probably entj, or intp.


I gotta be honest SJs can bug the crap outta me haha. Mostly because they put on these big fake smiles and dance around like the world is a bowl of rainbows, but when they are being legit, they're pretty cool roud:


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## Pianoasis

WickedQueen said:


> I think we have different opinion when it comes to definition of arrogance.
> The NTs has this "I'm better than thou" attitude, while the NFs has the "I'm holier than thou" attitude. Once again, not every NT and NF has the same level of arrogance, most of their arrogance does not in the extreme level either, but it's there.


And you SJs want to be treated like the Queen of England :tongue:


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## WickedQueen

Pianoasis said:


> And you SJs want to be treated like the Queen of England :tongue:


What's a matter? Did I hurt your ego, so you're trying to poke me back?

Your opinion of SJs is false, btw. Try to read Jung first before you speak.


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## KittyKraz13

My best friend is an SJ, and not only do I love her, but people love us together. People love watching me rule the mind while she rules the heart. We have a system that really works. Because this is an 'SJ to NT' post however, I'll give you things that she likes about me:

"-give honest opinions
-very smart and knowledgeable
-funny
-have an interesting sense of adventure
-good at arguing and accepting the other side if you agree
-cause me to become more open minded and showed me the dark side (pshhh)
-helped me become far less self-conscious about myself"

then she diverted to the things she rather disliked:

"-you misunderstand or jump to conclusions.
-you trample over my argument, occasionally before you hear everything I have to say
-you're more insensitive than I'd like
-you occasionally treat me like a puzzle instead of a person and make unnecessary observations out loud."

I'm sure there's plenty and plenty more for both lists, but that's all I got out of her now. :3


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## MegaTuxRacer

I had a friend tell me that I think I am God. I had no idea where he got that. It's actually the opposite of that. I think the whole "NTs are arrogant" thing is part NTs actually being arrogant and part difference in perspective. I suppose I project arrogance through confidence. But still that is so very difference than having a God complex. Maybe because I am right a lot? Maybe it's because I am argumentative? Dunno.

Don't know how NFs got dragged into this thread.


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## downsowf

In the interest of disclosure, I stole this line from someone else but thought it demonstrated perfectly the difference between arrogance and self confidence: 1) Self-confidence is a blind willingness to try to do something. Arrogance is the blind willingness to take away from others trying to do something.

I think with self-confidence comes awareness of the limits of your strengths, too. Sometimes self-confidence comes off as arrogance, but I don't think of myself as arrogant because I'm sure of my ability or knowledge. But like mkeath sort of got at, it's a subjective call. Even though I defined the latter concepts, people will define confidence and arrogance from their perspective, not objectively.


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## nreynolds1990

Out0fAmmo said:


> I don't get along with NTs, generally speaking. I think they have the potential to be quite arrogant.
> 
> Having said that, I only know NTs online. Maybe they're nicer in person?


Well...we can't associate with the peons and cretins now can we. Haha jk jk. I've never been called arrogant before although sometimes I'm guilty of it in my head  generally I will get along with everyone and can be humble too. Depends on the mood I'm in. My grandmother is an ISTJ like you and though she would never say it I believe she likes me best out of all the grandkids, probably because I listen to her when she wants to talk about something bothering her. lol

and I just realized that this post came off as arrogant xD


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## Sevchenko

kittychris07 said:


> I can take criticism, but don't word it in such a way that the criticism comes across as a character attack.



That's hard to do for an ISFJ (maybe just coming from an NT) but every single ISFJ I know (and I know plenty) can't take criticism of any kind without being hurt by it.


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## Sevchenko

KittyKraz13 said:


> "you occasionally treat me like a puzzle instead of a person and make unnecessary observations out loud."


You have no idea how often I get this at home. (my girlfriend is an ISFJ)


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## amucha

SJs are great I suspect they can be a little bewildered by the zaniness of my NTP mind at first, but when they get past the initial "wtf", I believe SJs and NTs can make great friends! 
a lot of people seem to have some negative views of sensors, and in particular SJs, like that they have no imagination, are mindless sheep, robotic (this especially for the STJs), which just makes me sad given that I time and time again come across people of the SJ type who are nothing like this. I have some of my most far-out idea exchanges with an ESFJ, one of my most chill and adorable friends is an ISTJ and one of the smartest and most insightful guys I know is an ISFJ

so yeah you adorable SJs, much love from this NT<3


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## n.yumikim

WickedQueen said:


> I think we have different opinion when it comes to definition of arrogance.
> 
> When someone boast or brags about what he/she good at, I don't see them as being arrogant. I see them as someone who is proud of what they are capable of. I see it as confidence. And I don't have problem with that.
> 
> I define someone arrogant when they are proud of what they have and then they *look down* at other people. For me, boasting/bragging about self competence does not equal with belittling others, so I don't see it as being equal with arrogance. But when they start to *compare *themselves with others and then *belittling *others, that's when I deem them as arrogant.
> 
> Generally speaking, this is what I see from NTs and NFs.
> 
> The NTs has this "I'm better than thou" attitude, while the NFs has the "I'm holier than thou" attitude. Once again, not every NT and NF has the same level of arrogance, most of their arrogance does not in the extreme level either, but it's there.



I don't think we're so much arrogant as we simply look at things from the outside in. Those of the other side may confuse the two; nonetheless, there is a distinction.

NT's are detached. We zoom out. Then we look at things. S's, particularly SJ's, see this zooming out as NT's attempt to step apart from the crowd in some elitist manner - when in reality, it's simply how we see matters clearest. 

So it's not that we're elitist but that we like to separate ourselves from the situation so to examine it how we like to examine things best: as detachedly and objectively as possible. 

I do understand how this can be confused with arrogance, elitism, whatever.


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## WickedQueen

yumikimnguyen said:


> I don't think we're so much arrogant as we simply look at things from the outside in. Those of the other side may confuse the two; nonetheless, there is a distinction.
> 
> NT's are detached. We zoom out. Then we look at things. S's, particularly SJ's, see this zooming out as NT's attempt to step apart from the crowd in some elitist manner - when in reality, it's simply how we see matters clearest.
> 
> So it's not that we're elitist but that we like to separate ourselves from the situation so to examine it how we like to examine things best: as detachedly and objectively as possible.
> 
> I do understand how this can be confused with arrogance, elitism, whatever.


You quoted my post, so I assume you're partly talking to me. Also, assuming that you already recognized that I was talking about the NTs that I know in real life...

Are you saying that all NTs are same and all of them are being misunderstood in terms of arrogance?
Are you saying that I did not understand my own family and best friends' behaviors more than you, just because you are an NT like them?
Are you saying that I can't differentiate their attitudes between detached and arrogant?

Read your own words and think objectively. Just because you are an NT, that does not mean that you understand the underlying motives of all NTs around the world, or that all NTs have the same attitude like you toward others, or that other types can't possibly be more correct than you when they judge the NTs they knew in real life.

Just because I'm an SJ, that doesn't mean that I'm less competent than you in terms of understanding the NTs I know. This, includes their arrogance behavior. I have my own ability to sense someone's arrogance, whether they are NT or not.


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## n.yumikim

WickedQueen said:


> Just because you are an NT, that does not mean that you understand the underlying motives of all NTs around the world, or that all NTs have the same attitude like you toward others, or that other types can't possibly be more correct than you when they judge the NTs they knew in real life.


Perhaps it's my N picking up non-existent clues, but are you implying in anyway that I've sounded arrogant from my post?

"We're not so much arrogant as detached." 
I didn't say "We're not arrogant. We're detached." I hope you understand my choice of diction. 

I'm just pointing out that in general, more NT's seem elitist because of detachment, not true arrogance; that in general, most NTs are not genuinely arrogant. 

I think we can agree on that.


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## WickedQueen

yumikimnguyen said:


> Perhaps it's my N picking up non-existent clues, but are you implying in anyway that I've sounded arrogant from my post?
> 
> "We're not so much arrogant as detached."
> I didn't say "We're not arrogant. We're detached." I hope you understand my choice of diction.
> 
> *I'm just pointing out that in general, more NT's seem elitist because of detachment, not true arrogance; that in general, most NTs are not genuinely arrogant.
> 
> I think we can agree on that.*


I disagree. If we want to go on _generalizing_, NTs are well-known for their arrogance. Hang around more in the forum and you'll see what I'm talking about. Also, NTs aren't more detached than, let say, STs.

You don't sound arrogant, you sound like someone who thinks that she knows what she's talking about, but she actually doesn't. "Smartass" is probably more fit to describe it.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro

l've noticed ISFJs in particular, and even INFJs seem to think of INTPs MUCH differently than l do. But most of you like ENTPs and think we're hilarious(if not a little obnoxious or flighty). Or you secretly hate us, but think it's a good idea to say you like us, which is entirely possible 

l can't say that you're reading INTPs or ENTPs "wrong", since there is no right way to view us and the way that we think is right is only our self-perception, but l think the INTPs especially are perceived much differently than how INTPs are seen by many types.

Anyway, l have a certain type in mind that has a reputation for arrogance and it isn't the INTPs. They shall remain nameless.

But l'm not sure if it's just the silence on the INTPs part that causes SJs in particular to see arrogance, or what. My grandma is likely ISTJ and has the same reaction toward my INTP step-father, and so do the other probable SJs in the family.


lt has truly always blown my mind how differently they see him. Recently, He had a a falling out with the family that we discussed with each other and came out of with an understanding, now a few of my family members are saying that they've seen him as arrogant and even kind of an ''asshole" for over 15 years.

O_____________O 

He's just...so not. l dunno lol.

Anyway, ramble ramble. please know that most INTPs, excluding hipster INTPs on the internets who will likely be labeled something else later, are truly not arrogant (IMO).

l think they do use a lot of non verbal communication and don't always see the point in explaining something. l see why that's frustrating to people and l've been the same way so l try to regulate the way l appear around my family members. 

l think a few family members think we have some kind of secret with each other, which almost makes it look like we gossip about them. Which we DO NOT lol. But for that reason, l try to get him to interact with them more directly.

But what is probably mostly social anxiety on his part seems to be mistaken for arrogance, probably because when he does speak, he talks about things most people don't have a lot of interest in.

But he's so nice ;_;

/INTP Advocate


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## Tea Path

brittauzenne said:


> HM, NTs. well. Im a people person, so I can get along with most anyone BUT, when Im not at my best, talking to any N can be tedious for me. But, I think I'd definitely get along with an xNT*P *before I'd get along with the same of a judging preference.


can't stand the competition (just kidding).
Re: wicked queen's NTs, I also am arrogant. but, I love when someone can prove me wrong.

Thread derail over.


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## RandomShadowPersonality

I have mixed experiences with NT's.


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## azdahak

I know a lot of INTPs and INTJs who have completely different personalities on the Internet than in person. Sometimes I'm shocked at the ribald posts this INTP young woman I know makes. In person she is very shy to the point of being almost an illness. INTJs i find in particular can be very obnoxious on the net, and perfectly reasonable in person. Similarly I think INFJs can get all charged up on the net because the words in a post stay there, continuing to be irritating, unlike an ephemeral conversation. 

Regarding judging, we all do it instantly and continuously. We make observations and assumptions based on the merest wisp of evidence. The corollary is of course that people are judging us in the same flippant manner. Sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes they get it wrong. 

We can't expect people not to insult us, because what insults us is as much our reaction as it is their words. 

I think the problems happen when people _stop _judging. They fixate on a certain perception of how a person is (or should be) and then all their future perceptions are filtered or blinded by it. They never allow themselves to reevaluate the situation, and at least in my opinion, miss an opportunity for growth.


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## Pyromaniac

Raichan said:


> I just realized I always notice that in my NT best friends as well.
> 
> You can see it, you can feel it even though they don't brag about it.


Consider the possibility that instead of receiving that impression from their general demeanor, it is because they are indeed "high class person"s. I'm not saying all NTs are, but the NTs you know could well be as intelligent as they think they are.

I'm often told I'm arrogant for simply expressing knowledge when it is relevant. Knowledgeability and the willingness to display it is not arrogance. It loses you so much credibility when you bandy around the assertion that one is arrogant so freely and sensitively. It seems that holding an opinion on anything you don't have a Ph.D with is the height of arrogance.


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## Chaerephon

It is interesting reading this thread, I guess a lot of NTs come off as arrogant. Seems like a personal problem. :tongue:

But seriously? We come off as arrogant? Well who is the one perceiving that. We aren't trying to be arrogant, but you "feel" like we are being arrogant. So since we had no malice in the statement, the receiver is the one emotionally charging our words not the NT (if he really isn't trying to be a know-it-all, 99% of NTs have acted like one at one time or another in their life.) I do realize others will do this, so I do try to word things nicely when I am talking to people in person. At worst I get called a dick when I'm less then "presentable" with my ideas, and just laugh then agree. Maybe even this comes off as completely arrogant, and I just have no tact.:kitteh:


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## teddy564339

Shazzette said:


> Funny. I feel as if SJs, especially SFJs, are looking down at me and finding me wanting.
> 
> As if there is something fundamentally wrong or flawed with my thoughts, ideas and emotions. As if there is a better, "proper" way to communicate and I need to embrace that before I can _*possibly*_ be considered worthy as a person.


I think this just goes to show that it goes both ways, and actually can go in a lot of different directions with a lot of different types. I think anyone of any type can hold others to an unfair standard that they hold themselves to. In all cases, I think it's ultimately down to a lack of understanding how someone else functions.

I do think SJs can be more prone to this in some ways because their Si can lead them to believing that what works for them is what naturally works for everyone. Sometimes a personal comfort zone can be extended beyond that person. That's where Fe or Te can be used to help an ISJ learn more about how others function. 

However, this doesn't mean that this only happens with SJs. Any person can have a lack of understanding of how others function and can assume that others should function in a different way.



OMG WTF BRO said:


> l've noticed ISFJs in particular, and even INFJs seem to think of INTPs MUCH differently than l do. But most of you like ENTPs and think we're hilarious(if not a little obnoxious or flighty). Or you secretly hate us, but think it's a good idea to say you like us, which is entirely possible


I don't know how true this is for ISFJs in general, but it's definitely not true for me. INTPs are the NT type that I get along with most easily, and I think there's more of a connection between those two types than there is between any of the other NT types with an ISFJ. I have a number of IRL and online friends that are INTPs, and my best friend for 20 years is an INTP. 

I tend to have more difficulty getting along with ENTPs compared to INTPs. 

However, you may be right in terms of an ISFJ misjudging an INTP if they don't know them very well. 



azdahak said:


> I know a lot of INTPs and INTJs who have completely different personalities on the Internet than in person. Sometimes I'm shocked at the ribald posts this INTP young woman I know makes. In person she is very shy to the point of being almost an illness. INTJs i find in particular can be very obnoxious on the net, and perfectly reasonable in person. Similarly I think INFJs can get all charged up on the net because the words in a post stay there, continuing to be irritating, unlike an ephemeral conversation.


I agree with this. I've heard it from others and it seems to fit.



azdahak said:


> Regarding judging, we all do it instantly and continuously. We make observations and assumptions based on the merest wisp of evidence. The corollary is of course that people are judging us in the same flippant manner. Sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes they get it wrong.
> 
> We can't expect people not to insult us, because what insults us is as much our reaction as it is their words.
> 
> I think the problems happen when people _stop _judging. They fixate on a certain perception of how a person is (or should be) and then all their future perceptions are filtered or blinded by it. They never allow themselves to reevaluate the situation, and at least in my opinion, miss an opportunity for growth.


I agree with you to a degree. However, I think there's balance to it as well. I don't think people someone's reaction is always what's at fault, and I don't think someone should always feel free to say whatever they feel like without regards to others' reactions. 

I also think your feeling about judging is probably affected by your dom Ne vs. my dom Si. There's a huge difference there between needs for stability and new experiences. I don't think constant judging is optimal eitehr, since it can create a lack of trust and a sense of paranoia. So yet again, I think it's about balance.




Pyromaniac said:


> Consider the possibility that instead of receiving that impression from their general demeanor, it is because they are indeed "high class person"s. I'm not saying all NTs are, but the NTs you know could well be as intelligent as they think they are.
> 
> I'm often told I'm arrogant for simply expressing knowledge when it is relevant. Knowledgeability and the willingness to display it is not arrogance. It loses you so much credibility when you bandy around the assertion that one is arrogant so freely and sensitively. It seems that holding an opinion on anything you don't have a Ph.D with is the height of arrogance.


I agree with you overall. I think where part of the disagreement comes in sometimes is deciding when something is relevant and when it's not (or to what degree it's relevant). I agree that if something has a clear goal for needed and agreed improvement, then it's beneficial for it to be offered. But if someone sees something as being offered with no relevance, it can be hard to tell why it's being offered...and it can feel like someone is doing it to gain attention or to put others down.

Of course, this isn't unique to NTs, anyone can do it. Anyone can be perceived as being arrogant when they don't have that intention.





NameUser said:


> It is interesting reading this thread, I guess a lot of NTs come off as arrogant. Seems like a personal problem. :tongue:
> 
> But seriously? We come off as arrogant? Well who is the one perceiving that. We aren't trying to be arrogant, but you "feel" like we are being arrogant. So since we had no malice in the statement, the receiver is the one emotionally charging our words not the NT (if he really isn't trying to be a know-it-all, 99% of NTs have acted like one at one time or another in their life.) I do realize others will do this, so I do try to word things nicely when I am talking to people in person. At worst I get called a dick when I'm less then "presentable" with my ideas, and just laugh then agree. Maybe even this comes off as completely arrogant, and I just have no tact.:kitteh:



The conversation of NTs and arrogance has popped up in a lot of places, and I think the crux of it goes back to what I mentioned earlier in this thread: It's all about communication and understanding. Otherwise it just becomes a blame game where two people feel like they're both in the right and the other person needs to change. Practically, I never see that going anywhere...because I don't think one person can do all of the changing in the relationship and have it work out in the end. 

But again, this isn't unique to NTs. With regards to arrogance or other areas, all of the time people will do things with a positive intent and it's taken negatively. I don't think it can be universally said what should always be done to fix the problem...it's really down to each individual situation and it's up to both people to understand how they can communicate each others' intentions in a way that works for both.


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## littleblackdress

WickedQueen said:


> I think we have different opinion when it comes to definition of arrogance.
> 
> When someone boast or brags about what he/she good at, I don't see them as being arrogant. I see them as someone who is proud of what they are capable of. I see it as confidence. And I don't have problem with that.
> 
> I define someone arrogant when they are proud of what they have and then they *look down* at other people. For me, boasting/bragging about self competence does not equal with belittling others, so I don't see it as being equal with arrogance. But when they start to *compare *themselves with others and then *belittling *others, that's when I deem them as arrogant.
> 
> Generally speaking, this is what I see from NTs and NFs.
> 
> The NTs has this "I'm better than thou" attitude, while the NFs has the "I'm holier than thou" attitude. Once again, not every NT and NF has the same level of arrogance, most of their arrogance does not in the extreme level either, but it's there.


Interesting post. I would say that the times I have been the most accused of arrogance is when I assumed the people I was speaking to were on par and they thought they weren't... I was actually assuming that they were fully able to engage in the conversation, and, when they couldn't or didn't, they accused ME of being arrogant (and a bully, actually). Gradually I came to realize that what happened was that I was hitting up against insecurity. I don't actually know whether those people were not actually smart enough to handle an intellectual conversation, but I do know that they were out of their intellectual comfort zone and it made them mad at me. I am continuously surprised that when I "talk down" to new people, they don't get upset, but when I treat new people like intellectual equals it is more common that I get treated badly... That said, I have mostly SJ friends - there are a lot of SJs out there. What I have noticed is that education level is important when an SJ is dealing with an NT. Basically, the SJ needs to have some higher level of education and then it is all good. Probably it has to do more with the fact that people who go to university are more interested in intellectual pursuits period... and so are more likely to be interested in the things I want to talk about. My son is an SJ with an INTJ father and ENTP mother - we have great conversations and he keeps me on my toes by wanting me to be "specific" all the time - lol. He does get along best with his dad, though. He finds my randomness sometimes unnerving - and my use of analogy can be a bit over the top for him... he likes the KISS principle - not everything needs an analogy. Another thing that he complains about is "being put on the spot" - I think that THIS is actually a big source of difficulty between SJs and ENTPs specifically - the conversation is so immediate and not all people have a quick opinion to dust off that it is unnerving when they feel that they are required to immediately comment (and debate nonetheless). A secure person simply responds with "I don't know - give me some time to think about it" or " well, I am not really interested in that - why don't we change the subject..." - but an insecure one lashes out.


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## teddy564339

littleblackdress said:


> Interesting post. I would say that the times I have been the most accused of arrogance is when I assumed the people I was speaking to were on par and they thought they weren't... I was actually assuming that they were fully able to engage in the conversation, and, when they couldn't or didn't, they accused ME of being arrogant (and a bully, actually). Gradually I came to realize that what happened was that I was hitting up against insecurity. I don't actually know whether those people were not actually smart enough to handle an intellectual conversation, but I do know that they were out of their intellectual comfort zone and it made them mad at me. I am continuously surprised that when I "talk down" to new people, they don't get upset, but when I treat new people like intellectual equals it is more common that I get treated badly... That said, I have mostly SJ friends - there are a lot of SJs out there. What I have noticed is that education level is important when an SJ is dealing with an NT. Basically, the SJ needs to have some higher level of education and then it is all good. Probably it has to do more with the fact that people who go to university are more interested in intellectual pursuits period... and so are more likely to be interested in the things I want to talk about. My son is an SJ with an INTJ father and ENTP mother - we have great conversations and he keeps me on my toes by wanting me to be "specific" all the time - lol. He does get along best with his dad, though. He finds my randomness sometimes unnerving - and my use of analogy can be a bit over the top for him... he likes the KISS principle - not everything needs an analogy. Another thing that he complains about is "being put on the spot" - I think that THIS is actually a big source of difficulty between SJs and ENTPs specifically - the conversation is so immediate and not all people have a quick opinion to dust off that it is unnerving when they feel that they are required to immediately comment (and debate nonetheless). A secure person simply responds with "I don't know - give me some time to think about it" or " well, I am not really interested in that - why don't we change the subject..." - but an insecure one lashes out.



I think you make some really good points here.


I think one thing that bothers other types so much about SJs is that SJs tend to have a greater need for a constant and consistent comfort zone. An SJ has a strong desire to have something pinned down so they can rely on it in the future. A feeling of unexpectedness can stress out an SJ. So they like to base their understanding of a topic on what they've learned in the past.

This does not mean that an SJ will be closed-minded to new ideas and edits to their previous thoughts. But usually it takes them a good bit of time to make these adjustments. This is because SJs, especially ISJs, commit fully to their thoughts and hate the idea of having to backtrack.


So...I think when an SJ receives a sound education with facts and truth, they're more likely to be able to latch onto ideas that make more sense. They have more information to form a sound foundation for their beliefs. They don't base their beliefs on things that they're falsely manipulated into believing.



I also greatly agree with the notion of SJs, especially ISJs, having trouble responding on the spot in these types of discussions. I think this is particuarly true for ISFJs. We're not good at adapting on the spot. With a lot of preparation, we can usually communicate our thoughts very effectively.

But on the spot, it can be very tough for an ISFJ because we may need more time to process new information and ideas and to think them over. But remaining silent can be very disheartening...especially if others are speaking passionately about a topic continuously. It can feel like others don't care about your thoughts or opinions, or that you're not important in the conversation. 


I think that's the other thing that happens in these conversations...you never know what someone else thinks about you, and when someone keeps on proving you wrong, it's not always clear what they think about you.


Part of this is also connected to an ISFJ's desire to contribute to others (often a "need to be needed"). 


I don't know how many of these things apply to other SJs, but I know for ISFJs, the relationship between the people in the conversation has a huge impact...just as much so as the topic at hand. In general, I've noticed that this isn't true for NTs.


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## littleblackdress

teddy564339 said:


> I don't know how many of these things apply to other SJs, but I know for ISFJs, the relationship between the people in the conversation has a huge impact...just as much so as the topic at hand. In general, I've noticed that this isn't true for NTs.



i think you bring up another point - NT "false intimacy"

I have found people responding to me sometimes like we are very bonded when it isn't necessarily the case - being confused that I deemed them close enough to share certain details. I am pretty sure this occurs with other NTs - it is a theory I am building - personal facts and details seem to mean more to SJs. Sharing simple details like childhood experiences being a bonding thing for s-types (I actually suspect SJs especially and not so much so for N-types - especially NTs.


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## MegaTuxRacer

littleblackdress said:


> i think you bring up another point - NT "false intimacy"
> 
> I have found people responding to me sometimes like we are very bonded when it isn't necessarily the case - being confused that I deemed them close enough to share certain details. I am pretty sure this occurs with other NTs - it is a theory I am building - personal facts and details seem to mean more to SJs. Sharing simple details like childhood experiences being a bonding thing for s-types (I actually suspect SJs especially and not so much so for N-types - especially NTs.


Oh this confuses the shit out of me. Suddenly I have this person latched onto me because apparently we connected in some profound way that I am not aware of. Whatever, they eventually figure it out.


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## azdahak

littleblackdress said:


> i think you bring up another point - NT "false intimacy"
> 
> I have found people responding to me sometimes like we are very bonded when it isn't necessarily the case - being confused that I deemed them close enough to share certain details. I am pretty sure this occurs with other NTs - it is a theory I am building - personal facts and details seem to mean more to SJs. Sharing simple details like childhood experiences being a bonding thing for s-types (I actually suspect SJs especially and not so much so for N-types - especially NTs.


It's a double whammy for ENTPs. We share those details readily and get perceived as being intimate. And then when people share their problems, instead of getting the traditional SJ perspective (which they've though of themselves) or the NF support *hugs* (but no practical solution), they get a practical rational solution and a smile. So they conclude we think they're special.

It's like we blow their heart and mind all at once.


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## teddy564339

littleblackdress said:


> i think you bring up another point - NT "false intimacy"
> 
> I have found people responding to me sometimes like we are very bonded when it isn't necessarily the case - being confused that I deemed them close enough to share certain details. I am pretty sure this occurs with other NTs - it is a theory I am building - personal facts and details seem to mean more to SJs. Sharing simple details like childhood experiences being a bonding thing for s-types (I actually suspect SJs especially and not so much so for N-types - especially NTs.



I think it's hard to say. I do think in general that SJs value the past and have a tendency to connect with others based on sharing experiences.

However, I've connected with non-SJs in this sort of way as well, and I've had them tell me this is how they connect with others. My two closest friends are INFP and INTP, and they often connect with others in this sort of way too (especially the INFP).

Now, it is true in both of their cases that they have tertiary Si, so that might contribute. I also think Fi can be a very nostalgic function, though.


So I don't know...I think it can vary among the types. I think it's possible that NTs may connect the least in this particular way, but I've always gotten the impression that NTs have the smallest need for emotional connection to others anyway. 





azdahak said:


> It's a double whammy for ENTPs. We share those details readily and get perceived as being intimate. And then when people share their problems, instead of getting the traditional SJ perspective (which they've though of themselves) or the NF support *hugs* (but no practical solution), they get a practical rational solution and a smile. So they conclude we think they're special.
> 
> It's like we blow their heart and mind all at once.



This another one that I think is hard to speak generally about, since I think it would be very dependent upon the type of both the person with the problem and the one giving the solution.

For me as an SJ, I tend to find S advice to be more practical than N advice, which tends to be more theoretical. I don't find SJ advice to be unoriginal or just a repetition of a perspective that everyone else has already thought of. I always view advice as based on each person's individual experiences, and those experiences greatly vary from person to person. 

I also don't tend to view NF advice as being all fluffy with no substance. 


Though my experience with ENTP advice has been limited to online friends/acquaintances, I've found it to be an even mix. Though it is almost always rational, there's a variance on how practical it is and how often it's offered with a smile. In some cases I've seen fantastic advice where all three are included, and sometimes it can be very detached and ignoring the important emotional factors of the situation (which I view as being a huge piece of the practical side of it). 


But it's like I said, it varies greatly upon the situation. Sometimes SJs do give advice that isn't original, and sometimes NFs do give advice lacking a solution. For me, though, there's not enough of a distinct pattern to make a general statement. But a lot of that is probably due to me being an ISFJ myself. I would imagine people of all kinds of different types have different experiences. For me, though, I haven't found ENTP advice to be any less hit-or-miss than other types.


But if that happens with you very often, then maybe you've just reached a point where you understand those around you so well that you can very often give the best advice for them. :happy:


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## azdahak

teddy564339 said:


> I think it's hard to say. I do think in general that SJs value the past and have a tendency to connect with others based on sharing experiences.
> 
> However, I've connected with non-SJs in this sort of way as well, and I've had them tell me this is how they connect with others. My two closest friends are INFP and INTP, and they often connect with others in this sort of way too (especially the INFP).
> 
> Now, it is true in both of their cases that they have tertiary Si, so that might contribute. I also think Fi can be a very nostalgic function, though.
> 
> 
> So I don't know...I think it can vary among the types. I think it's possible that NTs may connect the least in this particular way, but I've always gotten the impression that NTs have the smallest need for emotional connection to others anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This another one that I think is hard to speak generally about, since I think it would be very dependent upon the type of both the person with the problem and the one giving the solution.
> 
> For me as an SJ, I tend to find S advice to be more practical than N advice, which tends to be more theoretical. I don't find SJ advice to be unoriginal or just a repetition of a perspective that everyone else has already thought of. I always view advice as based on each person's individual experiences, and those experiences greatly vary from person to person.
> 
> I also don't tend to view NF advice as being all fluffy with no substance.
> 
> 
> Though my experience with ENTP advice has been limited to online friends/acquaintances, I've found it to be an even mix. Though it is almost always rational, there's a variance on how practical it is and how often it's offered with a smile. In some cases I've seen fantastic advice where all three are included, and sometimes it can be very detached and ignoring the important emotional factors of the situation (which I view as being a huge piece of the practical side of it).
> 
> 
> But it's like I said, it varies greatly upon the situation. Sometimes SJs do give advice that isn't original, and sometimes NFs do give advice lacking a solution. For me, though, there's not enough of a distinct pattern to make a general statement. But a lot of that is probably due to me being an ISFJ myself. I would imagine people of all kinds of different types have different experiences. For me, though, I haven't found ENTP advice to be any less hit-or-miss than other types.
> 
> 
> But if that happens with you very often, then maybe you've just reached a point where you understand those around you so well that you can very often give the best advice for them. :happy:



Copacetic. A biting and effective critique to my somewhat less than serious response, ending with a compliment that shuts down my desire to be overly snarky. Very nice. This is why I like SFs over NFs generally speaking. Direct manipulation without trying to be fancy. :tongue:


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## teddy564339

azdahak said:


> Copacetic. A biting and effective critique to my somewhat less than serious response, ending with a compliment that shuts down my desire to be overly snarky. Very nice. This is why I like SFs over NFs generally speaking. Direct manipulation without trying to be fancy. :tongue:




That's the biggest issue I run into with ENTPs....I never know when they're being serious and when they're not, or to what degree that they're serious. :tongue: I also have a tendency to take everything very (too) seriously. I used to try to adopt a philosophy of never taking anything an ENTP says seriously (which made getting along with them much, much easier), but I've gotten some good gems of knowledge from some of them, so that makes it more confusing. The constant bouncing around is hard for me to keep up with. :wink:



Wasn't trying to manipulate, though....just giving you the benefit of the doubt. ENTPs are much easier for me to read when I get to know them, and on PerC this is much more difficult, especially when it's online with no sensory communication for me. 




For me personally, though...I do feel like the ENTPs most likely to give the best advice are those who have learned to take into account who their audience is and where they stand both logically and emotionally. This is why I tend to get along better with NTPs than I do NTJs; NTPs seem to be more apt to consider the emotional variance among people and less likely to dismiss it.


So that's why I feel there's a good bit of difference in the advice ENTPs give...I feel some understand people very well, and other haven't reached that stage yet. I just believed your claim by assuming you were in the first category. :happy: (and by taking what you said more seriously than you intended, perhaps. :wink: )


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## azdahak

teddy564339 said:


> That's the biggest issue I run into with ENTPs....I never know when they're being serious and when they're not, or to what degree that they're serious. :tongue: I also have a tendency to take everything very (too) seriously. I used to try to adopt a philosophy of never taking anything an ENTP says seriously (which made getting along with them much, much easier), but I've gotten some good gems of knowledge from some of them, so that makes it more confusing. The constant bouncing around is hard for me to keep up with. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't trying to manipulate, though....just giving you the benefit of the doubt. ENTPs are much easier for me to read when I get to know them, and on PerC this is much more difficult, especially when it's online with no sensory communication for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me personally, though...I do feel like the ENTPs most likely to give the best advice are those who have learned to take into account who their audience is and where they stand both logically and emotionally. This is why I tend to get along better with NTPs than I do NTJs; NTPs seem to be more apt to consider the emotional variance among people and less likely to dismiss it.
> 
> 
> So that's why I feel there's a good bit of difference in the advice ENTPs give...I feel some understand people very well, and other haven't reached that stage yet. I just believed your claim by assuming you were in the first category. :happy: (and by taking what you said more seriously than you intended, perhaps. :wink: )



As you say it's a matter of maturity (as a function of experience, not necessarily age), no? Just as immature SJs spout the status quo, and immature NFs spout *hugs*, immature NTs overlook the emotional content in front of them and spout brutal logic. 

However, as an SJ, you don't need the obvious solution of an immature SJ…because you already know it yourself. The effusively *hugging* of an immature NF's might be nice, but again it doesn't solve your problem. But the immature logic bomb of an NT might actually offer you a different perspective, if you can tolerate not killing the NT. 

Of course a mature, worldly person of any type is going to trump all. 

That said, I've often been shocked when an ST friend of mine will offer a bloody obvious simple solution to a problem that I've turned into:

View attachment 71577


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## teddy564339

azdahak said:


> As you say it's a matter of maturity (as a function of experience, not necessarily age), no? Just as immature SJs spout the status quo, and immature NFs spout *hugs*, immature NTs overlook the emotional content in front of them and spout brutal logic.
> 
> However, as an SJ, you don't need the obvious solution of an immature SJ…because you already know it yourself. The effusively *hugging* of an immature NF's might be nice, but again it doesn't solve your problem. But the immature logic bomb of an NT might actually offer you a different perspective, if you can tolerate not killing the NT.



Hmm...I think the SJ/immature SJ part sounds right. I do think the immature NT perspective could offer some new insight. However, I don't know if I would say it would on average offer any more help/insight than the immature NF perspective. It's really hard to say without specific situations/examples.

Of course, the F/T part of the SJ (or SP) could also come into play. It's possible that for me as an SFJ, an NT's perspective may in the long run be more beneficial than an NF's. Or maybe it's the opposite...maybe I'm more likely to respond well to the NF's because of the common link.

But I don't know. I think, like you said, ultimately a mature person of any type will try to gain as much insight from any perspective. Maybe they'll be able to gain something from an immature one, maybe not (and I would agree that they're least likely to gain something from their own temperament). 




azdahak said:


> That said, I've often been shocked when an ST friend of mine will offer a bloody obvious simple solution to a problem that I've turned into:
> 
> View attachment 71577



This may not be that surprising if what I said earlier was correct. It's possible that we all gain the least amount of insight from those of our same temperament. A mature SJ will get less from an immature SJ than an immature NT/NF, and a mature NT would get less from an immature NT than an immature SJ/NF. 


If instead you're saying you would expect a mature person of any type would get more from an immature NT than they would an immature SJ/NF...I don't know, it's hard for me to say without specific situations.


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## azdahak

teddy564339 said:


> If instead you're saying you would expect a mature person of any type would get more from an immature NT than they would an immature SJ/NF...I don't know, it's hard for me to say without specific situations.




No, I think you understood what I meant. I'll stop messin' around and talk straight:

Basically, when you're "young" and developing you can learn a lot from just about anyone. As you get "older" and get more comfortable with yourself and your own limitations (this is something most people aren't easily aware of), I think the younger versions of other types have less to offer you. In an sense, any person who's integrated his personality, already has access to limited versions of these other perspectives -- an ISFJ isn't prevented from forming a logical conclusion any more than an INTJ is prevented from being caring and compassionate. 

Simply put, from my perspective, a 16-yo of -any- type has very little to teach me about life. But I can offer them much. I think this is obvious enough and certainly not too controversial.  So why, then? Is it just experience? Lessons learned? Well let me explore it from an functions perspective.

People often like to talk about "development" of cognitive processes. For me at least, I don't feel that anything has really truly "developed" over the decades of my life.

For instance, I don't think my Ti thinking ability has improved with age, nor my Ne. I think they're as active and astute as they always were. Likewise I don't think my Fe or Si has developed any. I always had Fe. I was not a cold-dispassionate child lacking in emotion or empathy, despite being the typical child teacher's pet- nerd- brainiac. If anything, I had a bit of a temper.

I knew very well when other people were sad or vulnerable, and I knew very well just what to say to be cruel or comforting. In many cases I chose cruel because, even thought I knew they wanted affirmation and encouragement, I thought they -needed- to hear the truth, even if it hurt their 'stupid' feelings. (This is T dominating F). In many ways I think I was more aware of other's feelings than many of my peers. I was able to rationalize how and why they would do cruel things, even when they did them to me. (This is F informing T) I don't think that has changed any. 

When I was younger, probably like many NTs, I detested emotions. I found them to be a weakness because I saw how easily people were swayed my them, including myself, which of course made me hate them even more. I valued knowledge and thinking above everything else. I though other pursuits were not worthwhile. To some great extent, I still do this -- it's what makes me an NT. 

But what I think has changed is the way that those functions integrate to form the gestalt we call personality. I'm still dominated by Ne/Ti. They are always first and foremost the dominant processes at any given time. But, they are better informed today by Fe and Si instead of resistant and fighting against them. They've all become companions instead of enemies. When Fe rears its crazy head, I no longer try to ignore it or tame it, even though my Ti still dominates it. 

3rd Fe is like having a little kid jumping up and down trying to get your attention because he has something to say. Since I pay attention to him now, he's not as frantic and interrupting. He knows he'll get his say, so he says his peace and then quiets down. Similarly my ENTP-Si nostalgia has manifested itself by me becoming the family historian…..even though I'm bad at actual "family activities" like remembering birthdays, lol. 

My better integrated Fe has allowed me to be the peacemaker between my 3 brothers: INTJ/ESTP/ENTP/ISFJ.
I often find myself 'translating' perspectives from one to the other when two of them get into spats. Much of that is still my Ne/Ti, but I don't think I would be able to do it as effectively if I didn't accept what my Fe was telling me. 

In a sense, if I concentrate on Fe/Si and let my Ne/Ti take a back seat….it's almost like I become *Fe-Si-Ne-Ti ….a sort of pseudo-ESFJ.


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## teddy564339

azdahak said:


> No, I think you understood what I meant. I'll stop messin' around and talk straight:
> 
> Basically, when you're "young" and developing you can learn a lot from just about anyone. As you get "older" and get more comfortable with yourself and your own limitations (this is something most people aren't easily aware of), I think the younger versions of other types have less to offer you. In an sense, any person who's integrated his personality, already has access to limited versions of these other perspectives -- an ISFJ isn't prevented from forming a logical conclusion any more than an INTJ is prevented from being caring and compassionate.
> 
> Simply put, from my perspective, a 16-yo of -any- type has very little to teach me about life. But I can offer them much. I think this is obvious enough and certainly not too controversial.  So why, then? Is it just experience? Lessons learned? Well let me explore it from an functions perspective.
> 
> People often like to talk about "development" of cognitive processes. For me at least, I don't feel that anything has really truly "developed" over the decades of my life.
> 
> For instance, I don't think my Ti thinking ability has improved with age, nor my Ne. I think they're as active and astute as they always were. Likewise I don't think my Fe or Si has developed any. I always had Fe. I was not a cold-dispassionate child lacking in emotion or empathy, despite being the typical child teacher's pet- nerd- brainiac. If anything, I had a bit of a temper.
> 
> I knew very well when other people were sad or vulnerable, and I knew very well just what to say to be cruel or comforting. In many cases I chose cruel because, even thought I knew they wanted affirmation and encouragement, I thought they -needed- to hear the truth, even if it hurt their 'stupid' feelings. (This is T dominating F). In many ways I think I was more aware of other's feelings than many of my peers. I was able to rationalize how and why they would do cruel things, even when they did them to me. (This is F informing T) I don't think that has changed any.
> 
> When I was younger, probably like many NTs, I detested emotions. I found them to be a weakness because I saw how easily people were swayed my them, including myself, which of course made me hate them even more. I valued knowledge and thinking above everything else. I though other pursuits were not worthwhile. To some great extent, I still do this -- it's what makes me an NT.
> 
> But what I think has changed is the way that those functions integrate to form the gestalt we call personality. I'm still dominated by Ne/Ti. They are always first and foremost the dominant processes at any given time. But, they are better informed today by Fe and Si instead of resistant and fighting against them. They've all become companions instead of enemies. When Fe rears its crazy head, I no longer try to ignore it or tame it, even though my Ti still dominates it.
> 
> 3rd Fe is like having a little kid jumping up and down trying to get your attention because he has something to say. Since I pay attention to him now, he's not as frantic and interrupting. He knows he'll get his say, so he says his peace and then quiets down. Similarly my ENTP-Si nostalgia has manifested itself by me becoming the family historian…..even though I'm bad at actual "family activities" like remembering birthdays, lol.
> 
> My better integrated Fe has allowed me to be the peacemaker between my 3 brothers: INTJ/ESTP/ENTP/ISFJ.
> I often find myself 'translating' perspectives from one to the other when two of them get into spats. Much of that is still my Ne/Ti, but I don't think I would be able to do it as effectively if I didn't accept what my Fe was telling me.
> 
> In a sense, if I concentrate on Fe/Si and let my Ne/Ti take a back seat….it's almost like I become *Fe-Si-Ne-Ti ….a sort of pseudo-ESFJ.



It's really interesting reading this, because it's hard for me to say how much it's true for me for my own set of functions. For me, I feel like I grow more based on experiences...not only external ones, but also just my own experiences with figuring out what I want in life. I suppose in some ways it is my Ti starting to have an influence on my Fe, mainly because some of the biggest things I've learned involved not caring as much what other people think of me personally. 


But I'm not sure how much of my development is function related. I feel like more of it based on things I've learned from other people. 



Regardless, I think for me learning about type itself is a huge thing, just because I think SJs who don't know about it have a much harder time understanding how others are naturally different than they are. I know for me that's been a huge piece of knowledge in terms of understanding other people.


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## azdahak

teddy564339 said:


> Regardless, I think for me learning about type itself is a huge thing, just because I think SJs who don't know about it have a much harder time understanding how others are naturally different than they are. I know for me that's been a huge piece of knowledge in terms of understanding other people.



Indeed....you SJ bullies and your self-reinforcing majority chunk of the population -- 50% or so.

Remember of us poor, poor misunderstood NTs who make up only 10%.


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## azdahak

teddy564339 said:


> With Napoleon, I think it would depend upon the definition of what an oppressor is. I would at least say that a lot of his actions/behaviors were at least oppressive. I don't know much about his history, but I'm assuming this article is accurate:
> 
> The Era of Napoleon Bonaparte
> 
> 
> With Machiavelli, yes, you're right, I spoke incorrectly in calling him an oppressor. However, based on what I remember from _The Prince_ (the only bits I really know about him), he did advocate deceit and brute force (in situations he deemed necessary), and I would describe a lot of his recommendations in it as "ruthless" if not cruel.
> 
> But I don't know enough about Machiavelli to say if those are representative of him as a person on the whole.


Machiavelli didn't write the _The Prince_ as a how-to guide. It's really the other way around. He's a good guy 




> Nonetheless, my main point is that I don't think NTs are exempt from exhibiting cruel behavior when they deem it to be right. Of course, neither are ISFJs or any other type.


Of course not. Often times the truth is very cruel. And sometimes the best loving intentions are for the worst. 




> Yeah, I don't know how accurate any of the typings are (and historically, typing is all guesswork anyway), but I do like how the site tries to balance out the black box figures among the types.


Even modern typings are like throwing darts. But I don't think that site is trying to spread out the evil. It does make sense to me why the NFs, and the INFJs in particular seem to have a preponderance of evil type.

NFs more than any type are the social manipulators….they manipulate the values which most people define themselves by, and use as guides for living. A very charismatic NF can compel the masses in a way no NT ever could.


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## Bigbone99

When I look at my INTJ friend I think "he can change the world", then I look at my INTP friend and think "humanity is doomed". Sarcasm aside, we get along well.


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## Serpent

This thread and the discussion about NT arrogance remind me of Jordan Schlansky (probably INTP) from the Conan O'Brien Show.
I remember how surprised and amused I was by the number of people on Youtube who called Jordan a "jerk" or an "asshole". I could not understand how he came off as an asshole or even a jerk.










I think Conan is an ENxP.


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## Tea Path

jimmyjjohn said:


> I don't get along with NTs, generally speaking. I think they have the potential to be quite arrogant.


this is true of any type, from my experience:me, hubby(INTJ), coworkers (ISTJs, ENTP), momESFJ, MIL ESFP. it's not the type but the circumstances, subject matter, and mannerisms.


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## Babolat

ISTJ here, male, and my best female friend is an ENTP and we get along VERY well. We talked about this last night, how the Feeling in people drives her nuts, especially when she just wants a Yes No answer without all the details!


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## Babolat

affezwilling said:


> I think the biggest complaints I get from them are that I'm arrogant and lack focus. I agree with them about lacking focus since I have a tendency to jump between projects and conversation topics. Most of the ones that call me arrogant don't know the difference between confidence or fortitude and actual arrogance. It doesn't help that I have enough self-confidence that I get cocky or impudent, usually as a joke, to amuse myself. Of course those are the same people that can't tell the difference between determination and stubbornness. The SJ's that don't get along with me are the self-righteous and unreasonably stubborn ones, which are the ones I can't stand to be around anyway.


Well said. My female friend ENTP hears the same from folks in her social circle. I see her differently though. I love these qualities in her.


----------

