# Post about the negative qualities of intuitives



## FourLeafCloafer (Aug 5, 2014)

You know how at school you always had to 'explain something in your own words?'

Well, many N's got so good at it that nobody understands their words. Bad at communicating stuff they aren't 100% proficient in.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Personally: very out of touch with my immediate environment unless I'm specifically focused on it, enormous difficulty remembering concrete detail unless I was specifically focused on it, listening to people's mood/tone rather than words, struggling to be specific and/or realistic, trouble seeing the trees for the forest - difficulty breaking large concepts down into actual/realistic parts, forgetting/overlooking minor tasks that end up tripping up my major tasks, difficulty estimating time, difficulty gauging how things will turn out in reality, not foreseeing small problems.

My workday yesterday was particularly stressful and fraught with my N-related failings. Most embarrassingly, I was finishing a task when my boss's boss came over, and I asked him when our CEO was coming in. He looked at me quizzically for a second, then motioned upwards. There was the CEO, about 20 feet from us. Hur dur. I also forgot to add on tax to someone's total when telling them the amount for a large check (we only discovered this later... at payment time...); I couldn't remember what a woman who was looking for my coworker looked like beyond some very general vagaries despite having talked to her in person; on that note, I forget what people I just talked to look like frequently... 

Also unfortunately, given some of the replies in this thread, I think we should add "humblebragging" to this list... :/


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

A lot of NTs in this thread are saying stuff along the lines of pragmatism. I think they are confusing intuition with thinking. Te is the pragmatic function. So people with Ti will have a problem getting things done. 

S and N are both viewing functions. They represent how we acquire data from the real world. The downsides of intuition is reading between the lines. We see things that may or may not be there. When they are it's like clairvoyance but when they aren't its a terrible error in judgement. It can be summed up in the phrase ASSume, you make an ASS out of U and ME. 

Ne combined with Si requires comparing and contrasting the present to the past. It's looking for the delta change. So we completely miss details in the present because we believe they are trivial, typically adjectives or physical descriptions. This makes us slow to respond. One thing I have noticed about ESFPs if they are much better at seeing problems or issues and adapting to situations.


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## peter pettishrooms (Apr 20, 2015)

Intuitives tend to think they're smarter than they actually are and have inflated egos just because they are prone to overthinking. Young, immature intuitives (ESPECIALLY NT'S) are incredibly pretentious in comparison to sensors. Having people correcting them results in a whole fiasco of "wow, how dare you insult my intelligence you peasant."


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

Definitely using intuition to re rationalize situations in fictitious ways. And then stating it as logic (eh wtf).

Ne can be very idealistic. 

Ni can be extremely neurotic.


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## reptilian (Aug 5, 2014)

Sensational said:


> Definitely using intuition to re rationalize situations in fictitious ways. And then stating it as logic (eh wtf).
> 
> Ne can be very idealistic.
> 
> Ni can be extremely neurotic.


Agree partly. Both N can be idealistic and neurotic, its about how it is expressed through the enneagram, especially the thinking/anxiety 5,6,7. I think it can go even deeper, depending on how the ego, sego, id relationship is established.

Have a INTJ 6 and ESTP 6 friends, it interesting to see how they both use Ni, its somewhat correlating, but the latter friend has better observations on the Se par and is interested in the concrete, while the former goes deep into the complexity of subjective opinion, gathering all the data he can get to make a conclusion.
Its not to say, the INTJ will make a better conclusion... The factor is the fear-anxiety-neuroticism, which makes most Ni world views ideologically focused, channeling fear into its proper cause.


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

negative qualities ?
we are INTJ
we are borg
imperfection will be eradicated once you are assimilated


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

Yet, I'd like to work with an NT Dinoborg.. :crying:


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Notus Asphodelus said:


> Yet, I'd like to work with an NT Dinoborg.. :crying:


yea, i got yer NT dinoborg right da fuq here
[pointing to crotch]:laughing:


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## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

Stultum said:


> You know how at school you always had to 'explain something in your own words?'
> 
> Well, many N's got so good at it that nobody understands their words. Bad at communicating stuff they aren't 100% proficient in.


" How did you do/know that?" Is the most frustrating question in the world for me.

I try and usually fail miserably to explain as they look give me incredulous looks until I get so flustered that my only remaining option is throw some sort of autistic temper tantrum until I scare them into leaving me alone.




Vinniebob said:


> negative qualities ?
> we are INTJ
> we are borg
> imperfection will be eradicated once you are assimilated


...wait... you're an INTJ!? ( no, I guess I never did look) but you're...funny...and ..you don't take things, or yourself, too seriously...wur?

Excuse me, I need to pick up the pieces of shrapnel that were once my brain.


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## Fumetsu (Oct 7, 2015)

Dbl post


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## VinnieBob (Mar 24, 2014)

Fumetsu said:


> " How did you do/know that?" Is the most frustrating question in the world for me.
> 
> I try and usually fail miserably to explain as they look give me incredulous looks until I get so flustered that my only remaining option is throw some sort of autistic temper tantrum until I scare them into leaving me alone.
> 
> ...


do you mean funny ha ha or funny in da head?:shocked:

ironically i'm probably one of the most serious people in the universe
in order to make light of others i must make light of myself
one of my golden rules


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## AddictiveMuse (Nov 14, 2013)

Absent minded, clumsy, hard to understand, impractical, distractable, overrated.


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## Notus Asphodelus (Jan 20, 2015)

Vinniebob said:


> yea, i got yer NT dinoborg right da fuq here
> [pointing to crotch]:laughing:


:shocked::laughing:

Hahahaha!


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## The Lawyer (Sep 28, 2015)

Something that is not necessarily negative but makes it hard for me to understand and relate to them and their principles is that NFs are idealistic rather than realistic and NTs are rational rather than realistic. Sensors are realistic, they just see things as they are, they are more willing to adapt to reality than to create their own visions of how things should be, and they don't try to fix things that aren't broken.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Wiz said:


> xNFP: assuming waaay to much based on a constant need to read between the lines. I almost never listen to what people say, instead I "read" their mind and create my own subjective idea of what they may be implying. When depressed I automatically interpret events and comments negatively which is annoying to say the least.
> 
> Also, Ne-Fi can create chaos and anxiety from anything.
> Sometimes it completely twists reality with all the "what-ifs".


well actually the INFP is the best listener there is, wink wink, no really, according to this guy who literally put some probes to people's brains. The EEG signals show that INFP's brain parts for listening is the most active of all types when someone talks to them. When the talk is done though, the brain shows signals similar to "coming to a conclusion / making a decision " as if we are forming an opinion.

Besides, people usually think I don't listen to them because I am distracted as hell and then they make an attempt to say what have been saying again and I stop them and I can tell them what they have been saying word by word. It is not only what they have been saying but of course I get everthing, things unsaid, things implied, the point, the mood, the reason, how talking about it makes a person feel, what are their motivations, fears underneath it all, their stance, worldview...you name it, but I try to suppress subjective parts apart from what I am told.

By the way I don't find INFP and ENFP that similar, it is inherently a mistake by MBTI, our function -roles- are hella different.


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## giorgaros2 (Sep 2, 2014)

xNFJ: These ppl are prone to imagine stuff then believe that its the truth and teach it to others.The lack of critical thnking involved in this process makes them prone to destroy the world without knowing that this is what they are doing.

xNTJ: Like I said in another thread , these mfers are the definition of evil, the most manipulative types evah.

ENFP:Like xNFJs this type is good at destroying the world the same way.

(ofc I'm joking they are all lovely)


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Unfocused and all over the place. Never finishing what we start. Can have a million different ideas and maybe 100 of them are really "gems."


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Not being in action, for example, caring about people but not showing it, not taking care of people like my ESFJ dad would.

Always thinking what is beyond and meta and tripping over real-life, head in clouds.

Thinking potential is more important than real work done when apparently it isn't the case in real-life scenarios.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

The Lawyer said:


> Something that is not necessarily negative but makes it hard for me to understand and relate to them and their principles is that NFs are idealistic rather than realistic and NTs are rational rather than realistic. Sensors are realistic, they just see things as they are, they are more willing to adapt to reality than to create their own visions of how things should be, and they don't try to fix things that aren't broken.


True, actually that should be how Sensing is explained. I think Jung and socionics does it better than MBTI.


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

jkp said:


> Agree partly. Both N can be idealistic and neurotic, its about how it is expressed through the enneagram, especially the thinking/anxiety 5,6,7. I think it can go even deeper, depending on how the ego, sego, id relationship is established.
> 
> Have a INTJ 6 and ESTP 6 friends, it interesting to see how they both use Ni, its somewhat correlating, but the latter friend has better observations on the Se par and is interested in the concrete, while the former goes deep into the complexity of subjective opinion, gathering all the data he can get to make a conclusion.
> Its not to say, the INTJ will make a better conclusion... The factor is the fear-anxiety-neuroticism, which makes most Ni world views ideologically focused, channeling fear into its proper cause.


Lol good comparison. My mom is likely an INTJ 2 & I am undecided if I am 6 or 7 first. Anyways she looks fucken nutz to me. (Lol I am laughing). That fear planning you talk about is prevalent in all her action and conversing. I have long since referred to her as an episode of dateline or 60 minutes (lmao she does not laugh). She hates how uptight I in particular expose her to be. That said I equally hate how she implies I do everything without thinking. (I just do not fricken talk about it and narrate it all or write it all down Ti vs Te I think there tho). Her version of impulsive and carefree is just about the most funny entertaining thing on the planet to myself. 

Anyways my mother always challenged my inferior Ni just it being in her nature. So I had to learn Ni. Oddly because I had to be hyper aware and learn to predict everything to appease my mother I think sometimes I can be ahead of my mother and sis Ni doms on some stuff. Like referring to calling their moves. My sis is INFJ tho her and I get along alot better. Not that my mother and I hate each other. Honestly she is INTJ so pluses she had was always respecting individual identity in most aspects. For a very long time tho my mother pissed me off because she would imply or refer to me as so ditzy. Anyways that was more in years past. In recent years she has definitely acknowledged I am the most solid of us siblings. 

Anyways I have had my conflict with Ni but I also think I learned alot from it. I use Ni in work places as far as scheduling and floor handling quite alot I am sure I can thank it being grilled at me for the use. Or maybe it is just my age and when it starts to be used healthy. (Shrugs)

In my mothers defense how annoying would it be to raise such a peacocking impulsive Se user lol. That said tho what has always baffled me is she has gotten along great with my elder sis (my moms step daughter great) and my sis is ESFP (far more impulsive then even myself). Maybe thats a shadow thing tho, like how myself and my INFJ sis get on much better. Or my ENTP stepdad meshes so well with my SFJ bro. Shrugs interesting tho to see the dynamics of different combos.


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## Rabid Seahorse (Mar 10, 2015)

compulsiverambler said:


> I agree about the lack of common sense, but not with those examples. Those are just risk-taking and thrill-seeking, common in SPs.


I can see that for de Carli but not for Warmbier and McCandless. They were definitely using Ne. An SP would go camping but I doubt they'd want to live there permanently and if they did, they would come prepared. McCandless had this idealistic vision of wanting to be free from society. As for Warmbier, what he did was intellectual risk-taking by travelling to a distant, dangerous country hostile towards his own. SP thrill-seeking is more concrete and thrill seeking like physical confrontations and whatnot. The only SP thing he did wrong was getting drunk but all college kids do that....


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## Wiz (Apr 8, 2014)

nichya said:


> well actually the INFP is the best listener there is, wink wink, no really, according to this guy who literally put some probes to people's brains. The EEG signals show that INFP's brain parts for listening is the most active of all types when someone talks to them. When the talk is done though, the brain shows signals similar to "coming to a conclusion / making a decision " as if we are forming an opinion.
> 
> Besides, people usually think I don't listen to them because I am distracted as hell and then they make an attempt to say what have been saying again and I stop them and I can tell them what they have been saying word by word. It is not only what they have been saying but of course I get everthing, things unsaid, things implied, the point, the mood, the reason, how talking about it makes a person feel, what are their motivations, fears underneath it all, their stance, worldview...you name it, but I try to suppress subjective parts apart from what I am told.
> 
> By the way I don't find INFP and ENFP that similar, it is inherently a mistake by MBTI, our function -roles- are hella different.


Interesting! I don't doubt it one bit. 

I actually see a lot of similarities between INFP and ENFP, but the main difference is that I feel ENFP are more prone to be a bit more flexible/inconsistent with their ideals to avoid negative feelings.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

Fumetsu said:


> " How did you do/know that?" Is the most frustrating question in the world for me.


Related: 

In high school, when I took the SAT for the first time, I did quite well in Verbal and quite "eh" in Math. Unsurprising, but interested in getting it a little more even, I headed to SAT Math tutoring. After I took the intake exam, the tutor sat down with me to review my weaknesses. He said that my wrong answers were sort of scattered across the board - no real pattern - so he just chose a few fairly difficult problems and asked me to demonstrate my work to him. Upon me finishing, he looked at me like I had two heads. He said that I did much of the work totally wrong and that my logic was inconsistent but I often came out with the right answer. I certainly couldn't explain my process to him, either! My Math score ended up improving by around 90 (out of 800) points which is pretty decent. Probably because he taught me the actual formulae and solution steps. 

:laughing:



nichya said:


> well actually the INFP is the best listener there is, wink wink, no really, according to this guy who literally put some probes to people's brains. The EEG signals show that INFP's brain parts for listening is the most active of all types when someone talks to them. When the talk is done though, the brain shows signals similar to "coming to a conclusion / making a decision " as if we are forming an opinion.
> 
> Besides, people usually think I don't listen to them because I am distracted as hell and then they make an attempt to say what have been saying again and I stop them and I can tell them what they have been saying word by word. It is not only what they have been saying but of course I get everthing, things unsaid, things implied, the point, the mood, the reason, how talking about it makes a person feel, what are their motivations, fears underneath it all, their stance, worldview...you name it, but I try to suppress subjective parts apart from what I am told.


That's really interesting about the EEG study; thanks for sharing it. You described the experience well: there's so much information besides just the word content. We're taking a ton in. But if we pay more attention to something besides word content, others can feel like we're not listening. Which is sort of true - maybe we're not listening to what they were hoping we'd listen to. It's hard to block out that extra data, though. Particularly because in some situations it is more telling than the words themselves - and if nothing else, it helps to frame the words in context.


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## Grandalf (Jun 7, 2014)

You can't brush off an entire group in one disdainful stroke. If 25% of the population is N, then there are 1.85 billion of them worldwide given the planet's population is 7.4 billion.

But since the OP asked, there is a very negative aspect about intuitives on this site. Noted, this wouldn't qualify for all or even a large majority of N's here but given how vocalized and relatively unopposed these views can be at times, it may come off as to a novice that intuition is aligned to said stances. [1]









Is this really what we've turned intuition? Looking beyond the status quo just to suddenly stop and neglect any theistic/capitalist/right-wing views as having any correlation to the N function? While I'm not opening up a debate on the topics themselves, I am asking that users think like true intuitives and look beyond any specks of this thought bubble. [2]

As stated previously, not everyone on PerC thinks like this. However, there isn't any strong crackdown when compared to negative sensor stereotypes. There isn't a strong protest when entire ideological groups are lumped with one or more of the 16 types; all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. 

[1] this is only based on my own perception; feel free to correct me with opposing evidence if available.
[2] while other functions and various factors play into the scheme of one's views, I'm focusing solely on how intuition (supposedly) leads to any conclusions to the first place.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

angelfish said:


> Related:
> 
> In high school, when I took the SAT for the first time, I did quite well in Verbal and quite "eh" in Math. Unsurprising, but interested in getting it a little more even, I headed to SAT Math tutoring. After I took the intake exam, the tutor sat down with me to review my weaknesses. He said that my wrong answers were sort of scattered across the board - no real pattern - so he just chose a few fairly difficult problems and asked me to demonstrate my work to him. Upon me finishing, he looked at me like I had two heads. He said that I did much of the work totally wrong and that my logic was inconsistent but I often came out with the right answer. I certainly couldn't explain my process to him, either! My Math score ended up improving by around 90 (out of 800) points which is pretty decent. Probably because he taught me the actual formulae and solution steps.
> 
> ...


Definitely, not only that when I listen I wander my eyes often and things get my attention, I sometimes even cut the person talking to point something out or make a random comment but I absorb all the information and I can go back to where they were and keep listening, it is just very annoying for them I guess xD I also find it really difficult to zone out when a person is talking to me, especially with one-on-one, personal matters, I can't shut myself off even if I wanted to. And yes all those subtle cues and someone's emotions overwhelm me at times, especially if the words don't match their mood or what is going on inside, I can't ignore that, it sometimes is louder than the words and I am like trying to solve a puzzle while listening what is said through it all.


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## Dental Floss Tycoon (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm disastrous. I'm always getting hurt on random parts of my body because I have little or none body consciousness.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> well actually the INFP is the best listener there is, wink wink, no really, according to this guy who literally put some probes to people's brains. The EEG signals show that INFP's brain parts for listening is the most active of all types when someone talks to them. When the talk is done though, the brain shows signals similar to "coming to a conclusion / making a decision " as if we are forming an opinion.
> 
> Besides, people usually think I don't listen to them because I am distracted as hell and then they make an attempt to say what have been saying again and I stop them and I can tell them what they have been saying word by word. It is not only what they have been saying but of course I get everthing, things unsaid, things implied, the point, the mood, the reason, how talking about it makes a person feel, what are their motivations, fears underneath it all, their stance, worldview...you name it, but I try to suppress subjective parts apart from what I am told.
> 
> By the way I don't find INFP and ENFP that similar, it is inherently a mistake by MBTI, our function -roles- are hella different.


I don't think INFPs would be good listeners. Look at Stephen Colbert or Bernie Sanders, both are most likely INFPs. Having a weak sensing function makes xNFP not really care what people are saying. Coupled with Ne it means the story needs to have some big overarching principle or interest is lost and Te wants action, not deep thinking. We care more about fixing people than being a shoulder to cry on. 

From what I have seen ENFJ's are much better listeners because of Fe, Se, and Ti. So any type with these functions would be better at listening.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I don't think INFPs would be good listeners. Look at Stephen Colbert or Bernie Sanders, both are most likely INFPs. Having a weak sensing function makes xNFP not really care what people are saying. Coupled with Ne it means the story needs to have some big overarching principle or interest is lost and Te wants action, not deep thinking. We care more about fixing people than being a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> From what I have seen ENFJ's are much better listeners because of Fe, Se, and Ti. So any type with these functions would be better at listening.


"xNFP not really care what people are saying." In what universe exactly? I am sorry I can't relate much, as I have mentioned, I don't find INFP and ENFP similar at all. ENFJs are great listeners indeed however they are extroverts, meaning their tie to the world is mostly external, being a good listener introvert feels like hearing what is told in echoes within. Perhaps it also has to do with perception. I honestly think your observation is wrong. That being said, of course I have interests and quite on the contrary I like deep thinking and when I am challenged to do so, I hate monotone, slow talkers, yes, I try to avoid toxic people yes but all in all I do listen to them and caring is not quite optional. If I disagree with a topic or lose interest I might become more of a talker but that is not really mutually exclusive. Then again, like I said and like Jung said introverts and extroverts don't actually share much, he actually says that difference is bigger than any other difference including functions so I don't think we experience it the same way.

If Se & Ti was a good listener, ESTPs would make great listeners. Pehleasee


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

The Lawyer said:


> Something that is not necessarily negative but makes it hard for me to understand and relate to them and their principles is that NFs are idealistic rather than realistic and NTs are rational rather than realistic. Sensors are realistic, they just see things as they are, they are more willing to adapt to reality than to create their own visions of how things should be, and they don't try to fix things that aren't broken.


I think it's more nuanced. 

Te is the pragmatic function. Anyone with a well-developed Te will be pragmatic. Both ESFP and ENFP have Te in the exact same place so both types will be just as pragmatic. The difference is that ESFP's sensing means they are seeing in the moment data; I would classify this "present" information as short-term. ENFP's intuition means they are reading between the lines and seeing things that may be; I would classify these "probabilities" as long-term. Both types are idealistic because it's Fi that is influencing Te so both trying to change people or things or the world into the user's desire. Both types are willing the rub people the wrong way to do that. So it's more accurate to say ESFP is about instant results and the ENFP about a butterfly effect. 

This is ESPF and ENFP. ENFJ for instance is a completely idealistic.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> Then again, like I said and like Jung said introverts and extroverts don't actually share much, he actually says that difference is bigger than any other difference including functions so I don't think we experience it the same way.


I think I and E are the least important classifications. Talking to my INTP friend is almost identical to my ENTP friend. INTP is slightly more stubborn because he is leading with thinking but basically the same. Likewise when I see Colbert (INTP) talk it's almost identical to me. He feelings more and is less pragmatic because of the lead feeling but again it's basically the same.



nichya said:


> "xNFP not really care what people are saying." In what universe exactly?


Since you asked. 



nichya said:


> I hate monotone, slow talkers





nichya said:


> I disagree with a topic or lose interest





nichya said:


> challenged





nichya said:


> when I listen I wander





nichya said:


> *I sometimes even cut the person talking *to point something out or make a random comment....*it is just very annoying for them*





nichya said:


> Someone's emotions overwhelm me at times, especially if the words don't match their mood or what is going on inside, I can't ignore that





nichya said:


> I am like trying to solve a puzzle while listening





nichya said:


> people usually think I don't listen to them because I am distracted as hell


There are all terrible listening (interviewing) qualities. Being soo inside your own head that you are disengaged with the conversation is not good. Sure you can repeat the words they said but that's the same as being engaged. Most importantly cutting people off in conversation is very rude. I know this because I make this mistake all the time, Colbert too, it goes with the xNFP territory. xNFP are not good listeners, probably one of the worst listeners to be honest.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I think I and E are the least important classifications. Talking to my INTP friend is almost identical to my ENTP friend. INTP is slightly more stubborn because he is leading with thinking but basically the same. Likewise when I see Colbert (INTP) talk it's almost identical to me. He feelings more and is less pragmatic because of the lead feeling but again it's basically the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure, cherrypicking is possibly the worst listener quality, ever existed. I won't go over my point again. I understand now what you mean with listening challenges you mention since you skipped over all my nuances and nested cases and again lumping xNFPs together while their functions are in absolutely different roles. 

For example:

Fi as Leading Function

The individual sees reality primarily through static personal ethics and stable interpersonal bonds between individuals, including himself, where the status of such interpersonal bonds is determined by his personal ethics. The individual is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities, and their consistency, of other people. This makes the individual seem "judgemental" or "self-righteous" to people less so inclined. If he has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion but if that continues to elude him, he will regard the relationship as not worth it. His own sense of constancy in personal ethics and in his relationships with others is a very strong factor in his sense of self-worth. Fi in this position implies the ability to almost instantly recognize whether someone is a friend or an enemy, whether they are demonstrating good will or ill will, and whether they are drawn to or repelled by the individual.

Fi as Creative Function

The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function. The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> Sure, cherrypicking is possibly the worst listener quality, ever existed. I won't go over my point again. I understand now what you mean with listening challenges you mention since you skipped over all my nuances and nested cases and again lumping xNFPs together while their functions are in absolutely different roles.


I didn't cherry pick anything. I listed quotes you said *repeatedly* that demonstrate bad listening habits. You can try justifying these habits, and even when you are right, like interpreting someone midsentance to get more info, it doesn't change the fact that good listeners flat out don't interrupt. 



nichya said:


> For example:
> 
> Fi as Leading Function
> 
> ...


Lots of abstraction in this. It has little to do with practical application i.e. listening skills.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I didn't cherry pick anything. I listed quotes you said *repeatedly* that demonstrate bad listening habits. You can try justifying these habits, and even when you are right, like interpreting someone midsentance to get more info, it doesn't change the fact that good listeners flat out don't interrupt.
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of abstraction in this. It has little to do with practical application i.e. listening skills.


When I have written that, I have included nested cases, scenarios that are rare, the truth, how it might be perceived by the other and so on. I have to be selective, that doesn't make me less of a listener. I just feel I have to put limits perhaps because I don't have the option to not care. Being a great listener also involves just listening, not trying to focus on what to say and how to elevate a person's mood as Fe does. Besides, I was referring to a EEG study by Dario Dardi, which I will have to give more credit combined with my own experience of being an INFP than to an ENFP who thinks talking to ENTPs and INTPs are basically identical. In my experience, there is quite the difference in nuances that really make the type or huge differences such as focus, attention, their ability to actually follow up a talk. 

I couldn't find the original one I had watched.






"INFPs: If you’re an INFP, you’re one of the best listeners out of the other 15 types. The listening area of your brain activates quite strongly."

https://meagandevries.com/2016/01/29/neuroscience-and-personality-type-dario-nardi/


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> When I have written that, I have included nested cases, scenarios that are rare, the truth, how it might be perceived by the other and so on. I have to be selective, that doesn't make me less of a listener. I just feel I have to put limits perhaps because I don't have the option to not care. Being a great listener also involves just listening, not trying to focus on what to say and how to elevate a person's mood as Fe does. Besides, I was referring to a EEG study by Dario Dardi, which I will have to give more credit combined with my own experience of being an INFP than to an ENFP who thinks talking to ENTPs and INTPs are basically identical. In my experience, there is quite the difference in nuances that really make the type or huge differences such as focus, attention, their ability to actually follow up a talk.
> 
> I couldn't find the original one I had watched.


I know most of what that guy said. @1:20 I already recognized that as an ENFP I'm closest to ESTJ, ESFP, ENTP, INTP and INFP. @3:00 he is saying INFP are good listeners. Again I completely disagree. His rational is "INFPs have a special mode where all region of their brain is sync." I don't know where he is getting this stuff but it's not myers briggs, that I can say 100%. 



> In my experience, there is quite the difference in nuances that really make the type or huge differences such as focus, attention, their ability to actually follow up a talk.


I think you might be making mountain of a mole hill through overemphasizing the differences and failing to see the similarities. Or you are confusing maturity with type. People that are more nature will be better.

Here is an INFP interview:






Interrupting to ask questions and jumping to conclusions, there is a reason most talk show hosts are not usually xNFPs. Ne, Fi, Te and Si are the functions least suited to listening. As an ENFP it'll be worse than an INFP but regardless both are bad.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I know most of what that guy said. @1:20 I already recognized that as an ENFP I'm closest to ESTJ, ESFP, ENTP, INTP and INFP. @3:00 he is saying INFP are good listeners. Again I completely disagree. His rational is "INFPs have a special mode where all region of their brain is sync." I don't know where he is getting this stuff but it's not myers briggs, that I can say 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you might be making mountain of a mole hill through overemphasizing the differences and failing to see the similarities. Or you are confusing maturity with type. People that are more nature will be better.


You bet? Even talking to Steve Wozniak is a pain as much as a joy because he keeps forgetting what was asked and what is the topic. Reading Feynman's narratives, I could tell ENTPs not necessarily mature the same way as expected of anyone.

All your case is that you disagree despite not having a good argument, so have a nice day sir. Besides, what is Myers Briggs take on the INFP and being a listener? Not that I would give more credit than MBTI deserves, I would recommend further research on Jung's original text or socionics. I think as an observer, you might be looking for feedback cues that shows a person is all ears and listening, which Fe does. Fi doms, on the other hand, do not show much, their gestures might be out of sync and are vocal about their own stance, perhaps that is where you are mistaken.

It is not like I give two cents about being the best listener type, I would pick a better ability if I could, it is what it is.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> You bet? Even talking to Steve Wozniak is a pain as much as a joy because he keeps forgetting what was asked and what is the topic. Reading Feynman's narratives, I could tell ENTPs not necessarily mature the same way as expected of anyone.


I have no clue what you are saying. 



nichya said:


> Besides, what is Myers Briggs take on the INFP and being a listener? Not that I would give more credit than MBTI deserves, I would recommend further research on Jung's original text or socionics. I think as an observer, you might be looking for feedback cues that shows a person is all ears and listening, which Fe does. Fi doms, on the other hand, do not show much, their gestures might be out of sync and are vocal about their own stance, perhaps that is where you are mistaken..


Why are you in a Myers Briggs forum if want to talk about Jung's original text? Regardless I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, I find myers brigg to be sufficiently accurate.

Yes people with Fe tend to not want to offend people hence making them better listeners. I would say xNFJ and xSTP are the best listeners. 



nichya said:


> Y*All your case is that you disagree despite not having a good argument, so have a nice day sir.*


 Interrupting people when they speak is not a good listening skill. Is that really hard to understand?


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I have no clue what you are saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure you don't.

This is not exclusively a myers briggs forum.


Your subjective -cause I said so- does not pass as an argument, maybe you would like to refer to the xSTP forum and try your luck, I am not entitled to this nonsense when all your argument is - because I say so - and it is not an indicator of what kind of a listener I am. Sufficiently accurate is not a standard I would go by in life.

Thanks for not answering your loose reference to myers briggs who actually says INFPs -are- good listeners as well.

Interrupting nonsense is necessary when the person questioning your understanding is hard as a rock and you find it as an insult to your efforts in spelling out, making real arguments, giving references and your intellect in general.


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## Toroidal (Apr 14, 2016)

nichya said:


> Sure you don't.
> 
> This is not exclusively a myers briggs forum.
> 
> ...


I think you have low maturity. You spinning around info to suit your agenda. Thinking people are saying nonsense is pompous. It's a very bad character trait for being a listener because it rubs people the wrong way. This is a trait xNFPs have which is why I said these types are bad listeners. *You are proving my point in every replay because you aren't listening me.* The fact that you think people like being interrupted, challenged, and made to have real arguments proves my point exactly that you are immature.


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

Toroidal said:


> I think you have low maturity. You spinning around info to suit your agenda. Thinking people are saying nonsense is pompous. It's a very bad character trait for being a listener because it rubs people the wrong way. This is a trait xNFPs have which is why I said these types are bad listeners. *You are proving my point in every replay because you aren't listening me.* The fact that you think people like being interrupted, challenged, and made to have real arguments proves my point exactly that you are immature.


Make a real point, I don't have to listen to every stranger on the Internet who talks for nothing but to prove that they are right because they say so. You are not here to discuss something intellectually or to learn, you are not open to new information. Nothing. All you want is to be right despite lacking what it takes to have a real conversation and just because I don't agree with you, you keep saying I am not listening, I am interrupting you, and implying the same thing asking if it is hard to understand (no it isn't, you are just wrong)

I did NOT say I think people like being interrupted, challenged, I said -I- liked it, now if you have LISTENED to me at all, or read what I have actually written instead of cherry picking parts, you would know. I was also talking about my personality and the downsides, it does not change the fact that I am a good listener when I do, when people needs me to listen to overall.

According to your talk, best listeners are rocks. I also assume they let you win an argument.

You are immature and willing to stay closed to anything said just to flatter your case "because I say so and I find ENTPs and INTPs identical to talk to" and haven't made a real argument really. And you expect to hear you are right and won't leave it there.

It is ridiculous you are trying to make a case on me as well, when you can't even catch what I -actually- said, and needless to say I don't have to listen every nonsense of a stranger who is here to only hear they are -right-. Well you are wrong, MBTI says you are wrong (despite you think it doesn't - I bet you are stuck on the immediate explanation of Ne and you think it is a -function- that will make us bad listeners and allow me to say, it is not how it works exactly - hence I gave you a sample how much a function differs in creative and lead roles), Dario Nardi says you are wrong, introversion and extroversion actually do matter and you are free to do more research, but you won't. You think I am making this a personal matter just because I am an INFP but that is not even the case other than the desire to -correct- what has been said earlier and share knowledge and a real discussion with actual arguments and references. Also I was being kind to ask you to leave quoting me but you didn't quite get it either. I feel like all my efforts to have a real conversation is blocked so I don't see the point.


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## giorgaros2 (Sep 2, 2014)

spidershane said:


> @giorgaros2 In a way I've contradicted myself by only focusing on the negative aspects of you're OP. That's interesting.
> 
> Although I'm aware that the post wasn't directed at me I associated myself with it, viewing you as a troll.
> 
> Upon reading over your OP again I caught the first sentence and it made sense. But originally my first reading showed me the negatives outweighed the positives which lead me to react that way. I try to stay positive and project positivity. I thought you were projecting negativity but you weren't. What were you doing!?


What do you mean ? Ofc If I understood correctly what youre saying , I think that the positives outweight the the negatives in ENTPs.The reason I focused on the negatives was because the only way to make people post in this forum , is either 1)make them butthurt or 2)give them a reason to circlejerk with each other..


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## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

giorgaros2 said:


> What do you mean ? Ofc If I understood correctly what youre saying , I think that the positives outweight the the negatives in ENTPs.The reason I focused on the negatives was because the only way to make people post in this forum , is either 1)make them butthurt or 2)give them a reason to circlejerk with each other..


What I mean is "I want to know you're intentions to find deeper meaning". The positives outweigh the negatives in everybody if you look for them. It only takes one positive belief in yourself to destroy all those negatives. Reason I asked also is because I wanted to know if you were protecting people and/or creating balance. That's usually what I try to do, and I wanted to see if you were doing the same thing. 

To what you said about the forum with making people butthurt or a reason to circlejerk...it's fucked up isn't it.

But what other way is there to communicate? This is what pisses me off. (Not having the answer to that question)

Reason I'm asking you these questions is because subconsciously in my reality you did create balance. But I focused on the negative parts of your post. So while you created balance and I focused on the negative we may have somehow for a moment swapped roles. I'm not saying you're a negative person of course, we may have had some sort of projection switch. Like if I pull myself one way and go the other I'm left with nothing. But because it was the two of us it left something.


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## shazam (Oct 18, 2015)

What is that something! :laughing:


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## nichya (Jul 12, 2014)

@ae1905 Don't pull me in this, there should be multiple threads on it, he is -the- ESTP flagship

Ti of ESTp

SLEs predominantly focus their own power-based agenda in utilizing their logical faculties. They may be drawn to power hierarchies or environments where rules are plainly stated and enforced. They tend to gather - either legitimately or illegitimately - and retain information which they deem to be useful to their own ends; they may refer to well-known facts, statistics and historical examples to back up their claims. They are independently minded and frequently come to their own conclusions, often holding few reservations about in the face of strong moral or ideological opposition. - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/SLE-ESTp/#sthash.xQD9lVni.dpuf

inferior Ni of ESTp

"SLEs are active, impulsive individuals who often suffer from a lack of restraint or moderation. They are typically inclined to perceive most situations through the guise of their instincts and in some situations may act without thinking twice; in so doing, they may bite off more than they can chew.

SLEs tend to be largely unaware of the extent of their mentalistic capacities. They may form logical representations of a situation, beliefs, or schemas of thought by jumping to conclusions fairly quickly and haphazardly. They often seem unaware of the subtle intricacies of many situation and are not generally attuned to the ambiguities or problematic interpretations that their manners of thought generate. They often think too quickly and may require intellectual maneuvering and refocusing in order to slow down their thought patterns."

- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/SLE-ESTp/#sthash.xQD9lVni.dpuf


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

nichya said:


> @_ae1905_ Don't pull me in this, there should be multiple threads on it, he is -the- ESTP flagship
> 
> Ti of ESTp
> 
> ...



trump is a businessman who has worked in real estate and media, both areas where the rules are not "plainly stated and strictly enforced"...an example of an estp is chris christie who worked as a public prosecutor before becoming the governor of nj...the law and government better fit the description of areas where there are "power hierarchies and rules are plainly stated and strictly enforced"...watch videos of the two men talking and you will see the difference between aux Fi and aux Ti


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## Kerik_S (Aug 26, 2015)

Stultum said:


> It kinda turned into a circlejerk anyway :laughing:. We intuitives are just too positive...


Maybe ENxPs.

Ne-doms are usually the only intuitives I find particularly "positive thinky".

Ooh! Lookie!!

I accidentally implied that not only do I have something _negative to say about iNtuitives_,

I actually just implied that three quarters of _all_ intuitives are negative-_minded_.

　
Zing.


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

ninjahitsawall said:


> wtf..


I believe it's rare footage of the little-known type NNNN. There aren't many around, because natural selection, but those who somehow survive to middle age often eek out a living as gurus and oracle figures for their younger counterparts, which is what you're seeing there.


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## ninjahitsawall (Feb 1, 2013)

compulsiverambler said:


> I believe it's rare footage of the little-known type NNNN. There aren't many around, because natural selection, but those who somehow survive to middle age often eek out a living as gurus and oracle figures for their younger counterparts, which is what you're seeing there.


lol! it's the most out-there thing I've heard in awhile.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm very awkward physically, have trouble pouring drinks, should probably be banned from driving any mechanical vehicles.


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> I'm very awkward physically, have trouble pouring drinks, should probably be banned from driving any mechanical vehicles.


SPs and SJs can have various forms of dyspraxia too. Otherwise, it wouldn't be present in nearly 100% of autistic people and at least 60% of AD/HD sufferers, amongst whom there seems to be a roughly normal ratio of Sensors to iNtuitors.


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## 10zingRocks (Apr 20, 2016)

Narcissism, and not respecting others boundaries


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## Baron Rockmore (Mar 25, 2016)

giorgaros2 said:


> Also another bad things about xNTPs is that they cant concentrate on something that they don't have interest in which is bad for our workaholic-culture.


I don't think this is an intuitive or xNTPs problem but human's nature which is also the reason why we have choice, decision, will, desire, goals, and interest. No one is able to fully concentrate and dedicate themselves to something they know they are disinterested about. Even if they can force themselves to, they would only distracting themselves from their interest rather than pursuing their interest. One is either interested in doing it or interested in the results of doing it. If he's interested in neither, he wouldn't be able to keep focus on consistently doing it.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

compulsiverambler said:


> SPs and SJs can have various forms of dyspraxia too. Otherwise, it wouldn't be present in nearly 100% of autistic people and at least 60% of AD/HD sufferers, amongst whom there seems to be a roughly normal ratio of Sensors to iNtuitors.


Oh, so there's a diagnosis for it? I was diagnosed only for dysgraphia and never thought that general awkwardness may be some sort of a disability D: .


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## compulsiverambler (Jan 7, 2010)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> Oh, so there's a diagnosis for it? I was diagnosed only for dysgraphia and never thought that general awkwardness may be some sort of a disability D: .


Yed, if it's bad enough to cause significant functional impairment, it's called dyspraxia or, more officially, Developmental Coordination Disorder. It's very common in childhood but doesn't usually get diagnosed in the US and didn't used to be here either, unless severe, because it usually comes alongside either dyslexia, AD/HD, ASD or other learning/developmental disorder and there's not much that can be done about it that isn't already covered by the accomodations provided for those conditions, e.g. extra time or a computer to type with in exams if writing legiblly is time-consuming or painful). There is at least one business running an oxculational therapy-style of programme in order to reduce symptoms, but as far as I know it's not proven to work and isn't covered by government health care services or insurance companies). Unlike the conditions it's associated with, most people who have it as children no longer are significantly functionally impaired by adulthood, but will remain somewhat physically awkward and clumsy. I'm in the still impaired category in the sense that I have proved very poor at jobs requiring a level of motor control and motor learninf that most people of average intelligence have no problem with. Typing is fine though, so I'm not impaired now I don't have that kind of job anymore.

I have noticed it seems a lot better known and more often diagnosed in the UK than it is in the USA. I don't know about elsewhere. In the UK you'd probably be diagnosed with dyspraxia, not dysgraphia, which is part of or a subtype of dyspraxia anyway.


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## Groovy (Jan 4, 2015)

Living in their head and not in the present. I envy those who live in the moment


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

compulsiverambler said:


> Yed, if it's bad enough to cause significant functional impairment, it's called dyspraxia or, more officially, Developmental Coordination Disorder. It's very common in childhood but doesn't usually get diagnosed in the US and didn't used to be here either, unless severe, because it usually comes alongside either dyslexia, AD/HD, ASD or other learning/developmental disorder and there's not much that can be done about it that isn't already covered by the accomodations provided for those conditions, e.g. extra time or a computer to type with in exams if writing legiblly is time-consuming or painful). There is at least one business running an oxculational therapy-style of programme in order to reduce symptoms, but as far as I know it's not proven to work and isn't covered by government health care services or insurance companies). Unlike the conditions it's associated with, most people who have it as children no longer are significantly functionally impaired by adulthood, but will remain somewhat physically awkward and clumsy. I'm in the still impaired category in the sense that I have proved very poor at jobs requiring a level of motor control and motor learninf that most people of average intelligence have no problem with. Typing is fine though, so I'm not impaired now I don't have that kind of job anymore.
> 
> I have noticed it seems a lot better known and more often diagnosed in the UK than it is in the USA. I don't know about elsewhere. In the UK you'd probably be diagnosed with dyspraxia, not dysgraphia, which is part of or a subtype of dyspraxia anyway.


Interesting. Thanks for the info D: . I'll have to look into getting diagnosed.


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## Thotra (May 6, 2016)

Overthinking things when, really, the answer is right in front your face! You might be overthinking things to much. Actually you are overthinking things. And stop eating all my cereal. I'll share but dang I want some too 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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