# Empathy: Fe Vs Fi



## HR32 (Aug 2, 2015)

Hi all

Which function do you believe is more capable of empathy, also what are you reasons for believing this.
Maybe you could also add some analysis about in what situations you believe the function is more capable.

I have my own observations on this but I'd like to find out others opinions. Try to be objective...

Typically in type, and particularly MBTI Fe is portrayed to be the champion of compassion, I'm far from convinced this is reality.

Please don't come in here and make a comment like, "it doesn't matter what function it is up to each person how capable they are to empathise". Comments like this aren't welcome. Unless you'd like a sarcastic round of applause for trying to show how intelligent you think you are :tongue:. I'm specifically talking in terms of functions.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

Fe and Fi are one function, only the direction is different. Fe takes its standard from without and Fi takes its standard from within. Both are equally capable since the direction doesn't change the role of the Feeling function.


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## coconut sharks (Apr 26, 2015)

Fe is usually described as being empathetic because it's related to emotional atmosphere. It's easily affected by others and is good at affecting others. 
Fi would empathize by relating to somebody through their own experience and 'applying' somebody's emotions to themselves. 
I think Fe would be more situational and Fi more particular about who it empathizes with.
/sorry if my insights aren't useful/


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

In my experience, Fi is capable of deep passion towards a select lucky few, and in the wider sense towards the underdog, especially children and animals.

But the most radical com-passion I've experienced have always come from ESFJ. They are always the first person in the room to know what to do if someone breaks down crying. And they ACTUALLY CRY WITH YOU. I mean, who does that??? They weren't even particularly close to me. They don't pick and choose, they absorb your feelings like sponges, even if they have no idea what you are crying ABOUT. In all my years growing up with ISTJ Dad and ESFP Mom, this has never happened to me, until I met ESFJ. Two of them. I mean, even as an aux-Fe user I sometimes keep an emotional distance from people, but dom-Fe seems to be incapable of this. In my eyes, its magic.

Anyway, I'm sure there was a thread like this brought up just recently  You have opened up a can of worms. But thanks for the disclaimer. It always perplexes me why people come to a personality forum just to write off the very thing we're here to talk about. And I'm glad I got my two cents in before the Fe-hater comes in here, derails the thread and then gets banned.


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## Kaboomz (Jun 14, 2016)

the most vindictive, abusive and hateful comments i've read come from Fi users. at times it's almost a spiteful pride that their own narcissism protects them from feeling the repercussions of the toxicity they are capable of inflicting on others

on the other hand, some of the kindest things also come from them...but i rarely (if ever) see Fe users go out of their way to maliciously attack people on an emotional level...and since empathy is the illusion of feeling another's emotional pain, logically, this dictates that Fe is more concerned with others feelings. 

Fe might not prioritize empathy, for example, logic and humor are my primary modes of operation, your feelings might only come into it when i realize i've done something to upset you...but at that point, even if you've been a disgusting cunt to me, i'll still feel obligated to respect your feelings because i don't want to be a bully and make things worse just because i can. Fi doesn't have this problem, it's very nature places the values of the feeler before the values of others, so they can go on and on and on, as long as they feel they're being true to their own nature, however compassionate or distasteful that nature may be



goodthankyou said:


> And I'm glad I got my two cents in before the Fe-hater comes in here, derails the thread and then gets banned.


personally, i can't wait

this is a great example of how disgusting Fi can get. 16k+ likes, so her pov obviously has a lot of support in certain areas...though apparently being true to your feelings has it's limits from a moderator's pov

http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/863250-how-can-infj-become-confident-possible.html


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct05/mirror.aspx

if the cfs exist they have physiological foundations...Fe may be the result of mirror neurons and might explain why its users appear to "feel" what others feel...Fi, otoh, might use other neural circuitry


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## ferroequinologist (Jul 27, 2012)

You have to define your terms first. What is empathy? What does it mean? What should it look like? What is sympathy? What's it mean? and what does it look like? 

Answer those two questions satisfactorily, and we may get somewhere, but first, look online at all the dictionaries, etc. and see how much agreement you might find among them. That is part of the problem. It seems that the terms are often used interchangeably, etc. Before you can even get to the functions, you need to clear the air on the meaning of these two words.



For myself. Fi is empathy--it feels with others--and can feel it very intensely and internally, but may not act upon it. Fe, on the other hand, is compassion--it feels for. It comes along side, and acts upon it. One is internal (empathy) and one external (compassion). This is how I have long viewed the two, and this was long before I ever heard of cognitive functions. And I've always known I'm an empathetic person. Empathy, I believe, means "I feel for you, but what you did was still stupid." Sympathy, on the other hand, would say, "What happened to you was terrible, and shouldn't have happened. Here's a shoulder to cry on." sort of thing (as you can probably see, my sympathy skills aren't the best).

That's where I stand on the issue, and have since my teen years, dozens of years before I heard of this stuff. All I've done is look at them, and compare them to what I knew, and saw agreement. Nothing more.


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## HR32 (Aug 2, 2015)

ZakuroToshino said:


> Fe is usually described as being empathetic because it's related to emotional atmosphere. It's easily affected by others and is good at affecting others.
> Fi would empathize by relating to somebody through their own experience and 'applying' somebody's emotions to themselves.
> I think Fe would be more situational and Fi more particular about who it empathizes with.
> /sorry if my insights aren't useful/


I think you are the closest here to my thoughts. Thank you for sharing
But I also see Fe is as being self driven, not in selfish way, but in that it needs it. Which in turn makes it seem less genuine.
Fi I feel typically in an internal thing so if someone is willing to express their empathy it seems much more willing because they are going above and beyond the function to outwardly express their feeling of empathy.

That is just my view of it though, others may see it differently. I also think mostly we are biased towards what we use.


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## HR32 (Aug 2, 2015)

ferroequinologist said:


> You have to define your terms first. What is empathy? What does it mean? What should it look like? What is sympathy? What's it mean? and what does it look like?
> 
> Answer those two questions satisfactorily, and we may get somewhere, but first, look online at all the dictionaries, etc. and see how much agreement you might find among them. That is part of the problem. It seems that the terms are often used interchangeably, etc. Before you can even get to the functions, you need to clear the air on the meaning of these two words.


There always has to be one of you doesn't there... Well have your sarcastic round of applause :applouse::applouse::applouse:


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

HR32 said:


> There always has to be one of you doesn't there... Well have your sarcastic round of applause :applouse::applouse::applouse:


Woah don't be so quick to jump on the porcupine there. This is not the user you're looking for. I think he was just defining terms, not disregarding functions.


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## castigat (Aug 26, 2012)

Inb4 this turns into a "Fi is the only function capable of empathy (◡‿◡✿)" thread


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## katurian (Apr 12, 2016)

Despite your protestations about this kind of answer, empathy really isn't type related.


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## Crescent (Apr 30, 2013)

Fe is more _naturally_ inclined towards empathy; it feels others pain no matter what because it literally senses others' emotions as though they were vibes. Fi can be just as empathetic, but the Fi user relies on their ability to relate themselves to the person who is in distress, either by recalling a past experience where they were in a similar experience or by imagining how they would feel in the other person's shoes. If these relational abilities are not being used then Fi's capability for empathy is significantly diminished. Please note that these relational processes often happen so quickly for the Fi user that they may be unaware of them. So I think that they're both equally capable of empathy, but that Fe is more naturally wired to it.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

HR32 said:


> There always has to be one of you doesn't there... Well have your sarcastic round of applause :applouse::applouse::applouse:


He has a good point. There is a difference between empathy and compassion. Also, there's simply feeling distress when witnessing another person's distress, which is a very basic form of empathy. 

I get the impression that your mind is set though and what you're really asking for here is posts that validate your opinion?


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## goodthankyou (Mar 25, 2016)

katurian said:


> Despite your protestations about this kind of answer, empathy really isn't type related.


This is the user you're looking for.


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## ToiletWater13 (Jun 7, 2011)

My understanding of the cognitive functions is limited, but here's what I comprehend it to be. 
I don't think either Fi or Fe is necessarily "better" or more or less "limited" than the other. I also don't think "the way it works" is exclusively related to one single function, but rather how some of them work together. For example, my current girlfriend (long-distance) is always shocked by how I can recognize her feelings so quickly and easily. There was a particular day where she woke up and texted me "Good morning" and just from that I knew something was wrong. I have never been wrong or missed one of her signals, even when she didn't know she was sending me signals. I think this is not so much because of my auxiliary Fe but rather because of my dominant Ni- which recognizes patterns and causes a sort of alert when something seems "off." To me, it's glaringly obvious when something isn't right with her, but apparently I'm the only person in her life who notices and I have to rely exclusively on text messages- I don't have the benefit of seeing her in person to pick up signals from her body language. In my head, there is a pattern for the way she behaves and I know that if she deviates from that, something is wrong. 
After Ni gets the "Something is wrong" alert though, I would say Fe and Ti sort of help each other out a little bit in the sense that Ti looks for context (I usually am able to figure out what's bothering her hours or even days after the fact, even if I don't know exactly what's in her head) and, based on the way in which she deviates from the norm (more information from Ni), the two of them together figure out what she's feeling. If we had a big fight yesterday and she's very quiet and lacking her normal sense of humor today, I know she feels guilty about it- for example. I can also tell when she's deflecting or trying to bring up another topic to avoid one she's afraid of. Really, when I'm paying attention, there isn't much that gets passed my radar. Fe then converts this into something I can experience, and feeling her guilt, frustration, and anxiety motivates me to give her a little boost. 

Although I don't know much about Fi or how it works for other types, the way that seems most natural to explain it is: 

Fe works from the outside (the other person) in (towards the self)- but it most likely needs other functions to create empathy
Fi works from the inside (the self) out (the other person)- it probably stems from genuinely caring about the person in question because it requires the person to use their own emotional reserves and you wouldn't do that for just anyone. 

I would be careful not to over-simplify it as just simply saying "Fi-users have to imagine/remember while Fe-users just absorb emotions via psychic osmosis" because to an extent, the ability to empathize is all based on one's ability to imagine/remember. Everyone experiences their own feelings differently and I don't think it's necessarily possible to replicate exactly what another person is feeling, but you can experience your own version of that feeling in response to another person feeling their version. I would say that's what empathy really all boils down to.


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

ZakuroToshino said:


> Fe is usually described as being empathetic because it's related to emotional atmosphere. It's easily affected by others and is good at affecting others.
> *Fi would empathize by relating to somebody through their own experience and 'applying' somebody's emotions to themselves.*
> I think Fe would be more situational and Fi more particular about who it empathizes with.
> /sorry if my insights aren't useful/


As a Fi user, I relate strongly with the bolded text. This can have its downfalls, though. Because if I can't relate to someone and understand where they are coming from, I can be very critical or hard on them because I think they're being ridiculous or dramatic. 

My Fe co-worker displays way more empathy than I do. She's incredibly sensitive to how other people feel, and incredibly sensitive to other people's perceptions of her. One day she might like someone, the next day she might not due to emotional sensitivity. It's a bit of a roller-coaster with her because she's always monitoring and adjusting how she feels depending on the situation. 

Both types have their good aspects and bad. I think there's an equal balance of empathy between the two, though. The empathy just manifests in different ways.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Empathy is listed among power flows of Xai (Fi correlate) and not among power flows of Xyy (Fe correlate). Since Pod'Lair can actually reliably type people and see when powers (functions) are used, I think they know better than mistyped people and people basing their systems on conjectures.



Subtle Murder said:


> My Fe co-worker displays way more empathy than I do. She's incredibly sensitive to how other people feel, and incredibly sensitive to other people's perceptions of her. One day she might like someone, the next day she might not due to emotional sensitivity. It's a bit of a roller-coaster with her because she's always monitoring and adjusting how she feels depending on the situation.


How do you know she's a Fe co-worker? Because of this? She could be Fi user as well (actually more likely).


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## Subtle Murder (May 19, 2012)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> How do you know she's a Fe co-worker? Because of this? She could be Fi user as well (actually more likely).


Why do you think she's a Fi user? Because of this? A tiny sentence posted on a forum about someone you've never met before?  Just wondering.


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## Inveniet (Aug 21, 2009)

Neverontime said:


> Fe and Fi are one function, only the direction is different. Fe takes its standard from without and Fi takes its standard from within. Both are equally capable since the direction doesn't change the role of the Feeling function.


I agree.
Besides the cognitive functions where never developed to describe empathy to begin with.
Jung was trying to tackle something very different.

"I don't give a damn about empathy! This is not about fucking empathy! Get it!!???"
page 39
Carl Gustav Jung - The book of why I don't give a fuck about empathy


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Fe: I will torture you for days, first I'll cut you, then I'll add salt, then I'll burn you just a little so you can scream, scream, and never stop.

Fi: I will chain you, and I will find your loved ones, and I will cut their arms and legs in front of you, then I will bathe in your sorrow.


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## HR32 (Aug 2, 2015)

Neverontime said:


> He has a good point. There is a difference between empathy and compassion. Also, there's simply feeling distress when witnessing another person's distress, which is a very basic form of empathy.
> 
> I get the impression that your mind is set though and what you're really asking for here is posts that validate your opinion?


Maybe you're right, but I just get annoyed when people try to break down peoples questions in what seems like some desire to sound intelligent. It is the whole reason I rarely come on here now. There always has to be one.

Not at all, my mind is open for new information, like I said I have my own opinions based on my observations but my mind is certainly not set, I can only see from my perspective and to make up my mind I was looking for other opinions.


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## leictreon (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm a Fi user and my basis for treating others is "don't do to them what you don't want them to do to you"

Does that count?


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## celestica (Feb 24, 2015)

It's funny, just yesterday I was thinking about this difference between me and my ex-boyfriend - an estp with a very well-developed Fe.

He once told me that I shouldn't treat others as I would treat myself (Fi) because it's very unlikely that "others" think and behave similarly to how I do (Fe tries to be objective and accepts that the values/behaviours etc of other people may not correspond to its values). As such, according to him, I should try to understand what the other wants and give it to them (Fe tries to smooth relationships and situations as much as possible, to be able to move to the next step, whatever it will be). 
Then, I said, what if I am not able to "get" how they expect me to treat them? Because I usually don't understand what others _need_ from me. I wrongly suppose that if something doesn't bother me, then it probably won't bother, or at least be that bad to others. Also, all this discussion made little sense to me, because I don't "expect" anything from others: I don't expect them to treat me in a certain way or understand me. It's up to me to communicate what are my "needs", to speak up for myself. I just expect this: that they are genuine (Fi) because I'm not willing to endlessly try to interpret their signals (Fe). A concept he didn't understand/he didn't agree with.
In practice, he's probably right - his behaviour with people is far more effective than mine. He's a good manipulator and people love him because they feel that he accepts them (which is not always true; Fe is more accepting than Fi of course, but that doesn't mean that it's willing to mix itself with everyone). He has an incredible ability to be liked by everyone he meets. 
That's the main reason: Fe cares about influencing people and make them do/feel what it wants (and is also more apt than Fi at understanding other's emotions); Fi, or at least me, doesn't even THINK about it by far, I cannot quantify how much I don't care about influencing others. I want to understand people, but that's not my way of doing it.
By the way, this is just an interesting example of tertiary Fi vs tertiary Fe.

All in all, I believe Fe is better at understanding what people want and feel, and Fi is better at understanding who they are internally as inividuals. They are different ways to build a picture of who someone is. Fi values more the individuality of someone rather than the universal patterns that everyone follows (Fe): I think Fe users build a framework of what people want universally (to be accepted, to be understood, to be listened to, kindness...).
It's not easy for Fi to think universally about its own emotions/and consequently, about other people's emotions: Fi works on the specific traits, I like this/I don't like this and that's all.

That's also why Fi users know themselves better than Fe users. 
Fi constantly looks inside itself to build an opinion, one can say Fi looks for a definite opinion about others, while Fe tends to stay open and hardly closes the door because it thinks that there's always room for understanding. Fe wants to embrace all about the human factor, and is more prone to find beauty in it: think about Dostoevskij, and INFJ, who knows exactly what other people are and feel and all the dirty stuff that lies beyond the surface, but still loves everyone, still accepts everyone, and looks for peace in God, the all-understanding, all-embracing, all-accepting. Humans wanted God for this reason. One can say the christian God is the ultimate symbol of Fe: "you will be understood, your sins and weaknesses will be understood, we will all live together in a beautiful, peaceful place, where we all love each other".

In matters of one-on-one relationships though, I believe that Fi is better at understanding their partner, because it's interested in understanding what makes him/her the way he/she is, digs deep into the particulars of that person, knows he's different from some other and in a way, if this person enters the heart of a Fi, it doesn't matter how different he is from the Fi user, the Fi user will celebrate and "worship" their uniqueness. While Fe is sometimes too stuck in "this is good because all humans feel this way, it's universal, everyone wants it, so why doesn't person x feel this about this topic? How can I change their mind? Why can't I change their mind?". It's subtle. 

To really build a comparison between the two, by the way, we should see where they are positioned and which are the other functions. Each function, in my opinion, changes if mixed with other functions. We can talk endlessly about a function in general but never arrive to a certain answer if we don't integrate it in a context.
In general, to answer your question, I think Fe is definitely more universally empathetic. Sorry for the messy post!



Kaboomz said:


> the most vindictive, abusive and hateful comments i've read come from Fi users. at times it's almost a spiteful pride that their own narcissism protects them from feeling the repercussions of the toxicity they are capable of inflicting on others
> 
> on the other hand, some of the kindest things also come from them...but i rarely (if ever) see Fe users go out of their way to maliciously attack people on an emotional level...and since empathy is the illusion of feeling another's emotional pain, logically, this dictates that Fe is more concerned with others feelings.
> 
> Fe might not prioritize empathy, for example, logic and humor are my primary modes of operation, your feelings might only come into it when i realize i've done something to upset you...but at that point, even if you've been a disgusting cunt to me, i'll still feel obligated to respect your feelings because i don't want to be a bully and make things worse just because i can. Fi doesn't have this problem, it's very nature places the values of the feeler before the values of others, so they can go on and on and on, as long as they feel they're being true to their own nature, however compassionate or distasteful that nature may be


I agree, I have had experiences with that. I think this applies more to Fi doms in general or undeveloped tertiary/inferior Fi. They become blind and wild, and totally unwilling to understand the other's position. Their only aim becomes hurting the person and revenge. Not contructive, only destructive. I still don't understand why they do that.
Maybe that's because, as I pointed out earlier, Fi is more about the depth (going down something because it wants a definite direction) while Fe is more about the breadth (more about understanding than expressing a strong final judgement: who wants to understand everything cannot build boundaries).


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## coconut sharks (Apr 26, 2015)

celestica said:


> He once told me that I shouldn't treat others as I would treat myself (Fi) because it's very unlikely that "others" think and behave similarly to how I do (Fe tries to be objective and accepts that the values/behaviours etc of other people may not correspond to its values).
> 
> All in all, I believe Fe is better at understanding what people want and feel, and Fi is better at understanding who they are internally as inividuals. They are different ways to build a picture of who someone is. Fi values more the individuality of someone rather than the universal patterns that everyone follows (Fe): I think Fe users build a framework of what people want universally (to be accepted, to be understood, to be listened to, kindness...).


Wouldn't Ne also try to be objective and see many different perspectives? So a Ne-Fi (or Fi-Ne) user might disagree with someone but understand their point of view? This would also make sense considering Fi respects individuality.

I agree with you on Fe being more universal and better at understanding other people's needs.


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## Kynx (Feb 6, 2012)

HR32 said:


> Maybe you're right, but I just get annoyed when people try to break down peoples questions in what seems like some desire to sound intelligent. It is the whole reason I rarely come on here now. There always has to be one.
> 
> Not at all, my mind is open for new information, like I said I have my own opinions based on my observations but my mind is certainly not set, I can only see from my perspective and to make up my mind I was looking for other opinions.


It's also important to remember that the function position affects the level of development/sophistication of the function. Which can be confusing on this site because there's often a lot of infps and infjs discussing Fe vs Fi. Dominant Fi vs aux Fe isn't an accurate comparison for distinguishing the difference between the two Feeling directions.


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## Female INFJ (Feb 27, 2010)

Kaboomz said:


> the most vindictive, abusive and hateful comments i've read come from Fi users. at times it's almost a spiteful pride that their own narcissism protects them from feeling the repercussions of the toxicity they are capable of inflicting on others
> 
> on the other hand, some of the kindest things also come from them...but i rarely (if ever) see Fe users go out of their way to maliciously attack people on an emotional level...and since empathy is the illusion of feeling another's emotional pain, logically, this dictates that Fe is more concerned with others feelings... Fi doesn't have this problem, it's very nature places the values of the feeler before the values of others, so they can go on and on and on, as long as they feel they're being true to their own nature, however compassionate or distasteful that nature may be


Thank you for writing this so concisely. This happened to me (I can count the incidents on my hand) at least four times trying to communicate with Fi persons plus observation of 3 family members. I was caught off guard bc I assumed the "image" and the "words" from those persons didn't match the mean-ness and cruelty that I was shown. I tried to befriend 3 of those people. But now after IRL experience I know to tell the signs and walk away from time wasters. It was tough for me to realize but I don't think that the people who mistreated me actually were aware they were doing it up to a certain point. But I could see there was a fine line that was crossed and it was like they were not aware that they were going into being disrespectful bc of their own personal opinions. I'm no one special so I saw these persons think "less" of how they communicated with me bc I wasn't in their mind whatever ideas or philosophers they put up on their pedestal. Very odd experience. 


Yes growing up I admit I have been selfish in many ways and it was tough to learn. But I think for me the idea of developing was always important. So I don't really care what others think in most cases I just try to find my "self" and try to be authentic in how I share with others. And try to do things I normally wouldn't do. I don't seem empathy as difficult, I'm an empath? Not sure what to say about empathy but I've never had a problem with it. I think sometimes if I'm in profound pain inside I defineately miss what is going on around me, but in those times when I can't be helpful to others I disappear and keep to myself.


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## Female INFJ (Feb 27, 2010)

Everyone has their path not criticizing people. But to me it becomes a problem when others are being mistreated. When in these situations I remember times in history or daily events when people choose ideas over human experiences happening in front of them. Naturally lack of compassion happens when there is a strong "judge". It is good to know ones self I think but there are times to keep this to yourself while communicating with others positively. It is question of balance. This Fi experience IRL showed me how to tell who is like me and who isn't. Bc many people look and act like INFJ but aren't one so when that flag pops up in my mind I know to better try to guard myself. But prob by then it could be too late to avoid something happening to me. I had an incident when ill wishes got sent my way. Actually that's like almost every day for me I live with a narcissist. I know saying lots of stuff. Again not criticizing anyone. People around me know to do as they like but if they are about hurting others, the outcome of any situation with me involved is not going to be pretty. Maybe it isn't the way of thinking itself that is disruptive. I find the "judgement" and "should" that follow based on the odd inner workings being expressed cause trouble for the person who is doing this. Not so much for others bc most reasonable people avoid people who are too judge-y. I apologize for this blob of writing I'll come up with a question soon about this once I gather my thoughts again. But I was definitely hurt or experienced the outcome of Fi so I had to immediately cut the friendships (not that they were my friend to begin with) they were just being curious and fake. And judging me according to whatever was going on in their head if that makes sense.


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## Female INFJ (Feb 27, 2010)

INFJ's out there. If you understand the experience of dealing with these situations IRL you can save yourself a lot of time and protect yourselves. Bc it is easy to let someone into your inner circle if they seem to understand or be "like" us. But look out for signs and tread carefully. Example: my grand mother went ill and died Fi person I knew had all the kind words in cards they sent and took a photo of (their) rose garden and sent it instead of getting their ass on the plane and first hand helping out and being there. another Example: I took a person to see my trusted intuitive contact to get a reading and they told them "I want to talk to this angel" and didn't listen to anything else they were telling them. My friend wondered why I sent them such a lunatic. He made it clear that his way of seeing the universe was superior to mine in my face. I ditched him swiftly. Another girl I tried to befriend kept on ranting what a terrible person I was then when I dumped her she followed me downtown and harassed my phone telling me that I had to look for her at a festival. That was dangerous I feel she ill wished me and I almost fell down a flight of stairs and died bc of the mental disturbance she called me. I'm not accustomed to being treated like this so it was a shock to get ugly text messages and lectures. I'm open to being friends with an Fi person if it happens but it is difficult to communicate with a person when things always have to be on their terms. I actually have a sweet friend right now. But I told him off bc he wanted me to pretend to be a certain way to satisfy his desires. I told him no. This is me and I'm not going to be fake if you want a friendship with me he has to accept reality and me the way I am. That kind of went well then we broke off bc I felt his energy of whatever upsets he went through affecting me. I really wanted him to open himself up to see the world differently bc narrow ways of thinking often cause pain. He fell in love with a woman who fooled him but he was vulnerable to be fooled bc of the mindset he had....it's so confusing to explain. I'm sorry I'll be quiet now for a bit.


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## Female INFJ (Feb 27, 2010)

It is important for everyone to not fall into their own illusions. But I think this is a blind spot for Fi a little bit more than for others. And that's ok everyone has their stuff to work on. This isn't a personal rant, whatever happened in the past happened. I'm just looking for a way that I can be a friend to someone like this but it isn't working out IRL for me always conflicts.


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## Kaboomz (Jun 14, 2016)

Female INFJ said:


> Thank you for writing this so concisely. This happened to me (I can count the incidents on my hand) at least four times trying to communicate with Fi persons plus observation of 3 family members. I was caught off guard bc I assumed the "image" and the "words" from those persons didn't match the mean-ness and cruelty that I was shown. I tried to befriend 3 of those people. But now after IRL experience I know to tell the signs and walk away from time wasters. It was tough for me to realize but I don't think that the people who mistreated me actually were aware they were doing it up to a certain point. But I could see there was a fine line that was crossed and it was like they were not aware that they were going into being disrespectful bc of their own personal opinions. I'm no one special so I saw these persons think "less" of how they communicated with me bc I wasn't in their mind whatever ideas or philosophers they put up on their pedestal. Very odd experience.
> 
> 
> Yes growing up I admit I have been selfish in many ways and it was tough to learn. But I think for me the idea of developing was always important. So I don't really care what others think in most cases I just try to find my "self" and try to be authentic in how I share with others. And try to do things I normally wouldn't do. I don't seem empathy as difficult, I'm an empath? Not sure what to say about empathy but I've never had a problem with it. I think sometimes if I'm in profound pain inside I defineately miss what is going on around me, but in those times when I can't be helpful to others I disappear and keep to myself.


no sweat

also. water turns air into...






also also. one of my best friends is an isfp. last time he visited me he got drunk at a wedding, verbally abused some old ladies on the dance floor before starting a fight and stealing the groom's car, breaking into someone's home before eventually coming to my house (with the stolen car) where he was later arrested for gta. my anger lasted about...an hour. he is kinda amazing and i love his company because there is no bs and he is never boring (though he is quite an exception. i'm sure a ton of ixfps are boring as bird shit) but when he was starting a fight at the wedding, i actually went full retard on him and tried to make him hit me so he would be arrested and removed because everyone kept blaming ME because "he's your friend" and i was getting sick of it. i found the whole thing hillarious and brilliant, except that people were taking their offence out on me because they were scared witless of him haha 

i think one of the great benefits of Fe is that it is insanely accepting of everyone, even borderline maniacs. Fi vs Fi though...and you end up with knives, broken bottles and family death threats. my friends ex-partner was an an INTJ...that was the most fucked up relationship i ever saw. the car thief friend actually punched his way back into his own house after getting thrown out by his partner just to try and burn it down with us all inside lol

obviously he felt terrible and ashamed after all of this, but while Fi might lack in the empathy department, it makes up for it with megalols...just so people don't think i'm hating on it ha

(don't forget the bubbles)


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Kaboomz said:


> the most vindictive, abusive and hateful comments i've read come from Fi users. at times it's almost a spiteful pride that their own narcissism protects them from feeling the repercussions of the toxicity they are capable of inflicting on others
> 
> on the other hand, some of the kindest things also come from them...but i rarely (if ever) see Fe users go out of their way to maliciously attack people on an emotional level...and since empathy is the illusion of feeling another's emotional pain, logically, this dictates that Fe is more concerned with others feelings.
> 
> Fe might not prioritize empathy, for example, logic and humor are my primary modes of operation, your feelings might only come into it when i realize i've done something to upset you...but at that point, even if you've been a disgusting cunt to me, i'll still feel obligated to respect your feelings because i don't want to be a bully and make things worse just because i can. Fi doesn't have this problem, it's very nature places the values of the feeler before the values of others, so they can go on and on and on, as long as they feel they're being true to their own nature, however compassionate or distasteful that nature may be


I've often seen Fe/Ti users maliciously use mocking to hurt feelings of others (mocking humour is typical for Ti users... and using Ti suppresses Fe). It just depends on what kind of people you're around. Also, I can't help an impression that you're just use "respects feeling of others" and "doesn't respect feelings of others" to guess peoples types. It doesn't work that way.



Kaboomz said:


> this is a great example of how disgusting Fi can get. 16k+ likes, so her pov obviously has a lot of support in certain areas...though apparently being true to your feelings has it's limits from a moderator's pov
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/863250-how-can-infj-become-confident-possible.html


How do you even know that dude is a Fi user? His use of mocking as a method of confrontation makes me suspect he's some kind of a Ti user. He doesn't remind me of any Fi user I know.
(And I have him on my ignore list for a lot of time. I don't remember why.)
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the INFJs that he hates so much or an ENTP.



Kaboomz said:


> while Fi might lack in the empathy department


Fi doesn't lack in empathy department. 

This discussion is nonsensical because it takes a single function and tries to examine it with dubious evidence.

Fi doesn't exist alone. It's paired with Te and is influenced by other functions.

Let's talk about functions role.
Fi is a compass bearing just as Ti. Internal decision criteria.

Fe is a dynamics mover just as Te. External decision criteria. It's also responsible for articulation - when explaining, pushing an agenda, idea or opinion.

The thing is that Fi users often don't use Fi. Using Te suppresses Fi and during an arguments, it's usually Te that is going to be used which is when things may go nasty because negative side of Te is brutish, domineering and callous (while negative side of Fe is clannish, volatile and manipulative). 

Problem with using Fi is that it's vulnerable (Fi operates on mournful-eager-joyous spectrum), so in a hostile world one can simply habitually suppress Fi and use it sparingly, which results in less empathy. Also, thinking in a worldly, Te-based way may unwittingly suppress Fi - I noticed that I rarely focus on Fi and very often operate on Ne-Te-Si.


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## Kaboomz (Jun 14, 2016)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> I've often seen Fe/Ti users maliciously use mocking to hurt feelings of others (mocking humour is typical for Ti users... and using Ti suppresses Fe). It just depends on what kind of people you're around. Also, I can't help an impression that you're just use "respects feeling of others" and "doesn't respect feelings of others" to guess peoples types. It doesn't work that way.


i already acknowledged i can hurt people's feelings like an absolute boss. the difference is, i don't mean to. it just happens because i'm a dick! i literally wouldn't do it on purpose. i'd sooner smother you than do something that might emotionally cripple you for life.

i love the mis-use of quotes though. pro attempt at trolling...or was it an attempt to make a redundant point that i'd already addressed? i never assumed that Fi can't respect others feelings, I said that Fi prioritizes the feelings of the user over the feelings of others. it sounds like you're disagreeing, but your whole argument seems predicated on Fi users only being dickish because they suppress it via Te, which isn't giving yourselfs enough credit. you can be douchebags without being intellectual about it, just like i can be a prick without hiding behind my Fe homies




> How do you even know that dude is a Fi user? His use of mocking as a method of confrontation makes me suspect he's some kind of a Ti user. He doesn't remind me of any Fi user I know.
> (And I have him on my ignore list for a lot of time. I don't remember why.)
> To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the INFJs that he hates so much or an ENTP.


let's look at the evidence matey. 

-she's- been a forum member for over five years. she has nearly 10k posts. she actively loathes anyone who uses Fe because they are "spineless" "sheeple" and "fake" (just check her forum posts) and she has nearly 16k likes from a forum almost entirely comprised of Fi users...and she was typed ISFP, i'd say it's safe to assume she's in your camp. i love that you're trying to hide all this under the carpet and hand her hateful little comments over to my neck of the woods. occam's broom is on overdrive hahaha. that tends to be how Fi/Te works, right? if something doesn't compute with the dominant feelings, the inferior Te will start rearranging to make it fit the feelings, rather than the other way around (you know, like Ti)




> Fi doesn't lack in empathy department.
> 
> This discussion is nonsensical because it takes a single function and tries to examine it with dubious evidence.
> 
> ...


i'm glad you clarified your point on the functions. i don't see why you think Te suppresses Fi. that implies that Fi users are somehow objective despite being intransigent regarding their own personal belief structure, which is just hilarious. even intj's struggle being objective because of their fi. 

i love fi. most of my friends are fi. they find it mind boggling how changeable i am in social situations, and i find it mind boggling how intransigent they are in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their opinions. i enjoy conflict, and fi is the source of most conflict, which isn't a bad thing. it's also a great source of empathy, it's just extremely selective, which is why i said it is lacking. i'm the first to admit i'm about as graceful as a bowling ball when it comes to other peoples' feelings, but i CANNOT HELP feeling bad when i upset someone. it might not be very visceral, and it might not last very long, but it is still there...but even my most compassionate IXFP friends don't have this problem. they can and will do what they want to others if they feel it is the right thing to do. i don't have a choice. your feelings almost override mine, which makes for a very rocky journey when you consider the trouble i am capable of causing them. Fi seems to only feel bad when it either relates to the subject on a personal level, or for some reasons violates it's own standards.

i also hate the clannish aspect of Fe. it's pathetic and sheep like imo, but then again, i operate on logic and lols, so my opinion of it shouldn't be lent too much credence, except for the fact that i am aware of other peoples' feelings to a greater extent than my own


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## desecrationsmile (Sep 12, 2014)

I know this might sound harsh but I find myself sort of losing empathy (and sympathy) for someone that I perceive as faking their way through life. I guess in some way I can understand it, but I can't respect it. and I find Fi really needs to respect the person to feel any sort of affinity for them. That's my opinion anyways as a Fi user.


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## desecrationsmile (Sep 12, 2014)

I get a bit fed up with some Ti/Fe users incessant jostling. Sometimes it really isn't funny anymore and it's time to be serious and real and if the person is incapable of this, it's tough for me to respect them. Again respect is huge for Fi users, I think. I'm curous what other Fi users would say about this respect theory. (not to say Fe users don't need this as well but I think to a lesser extent I've found)


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## boblikesoup (Nov 26, 2011)

goodthankyou said:


> In my experience, Fi is capable of deep passion towards a select lucky few, and in the wider sense towards the underdog, especially children and animals.
> 
> But the most radical com-passion I've experienced have always come from ESFJ. They are always the first person in the room to know what to do if someone breaks down crying. And they ACTUALLY CRY WITH YOU. I mean, who does that??? They weren't even particularly close to me. They don't pick and choose, they absorb your feelings like sponges, even if they have no idea what you are crying ABOUT. In all my years growing up with ISTJ Dad and ESFP Mom, this has never happened to me, until I met ESFJ. Two of them. I mean, even as an aux-Fe user I sometimes keep an emotional distance from people, but dom-Fe seems to be incapable of this. In my eyes, its magic.


I spend a lot of time thinking about this and this post closely aligns with my own experience/observations. Note that 3rd/4th position F can be the opposite bc those are things that people are under-developed at. I also wonder about internet trolling/anonymous lack of compassion and see it most in 3rd and 4th position Fe.


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## Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar (Apr 9, 2015)

Kaboomz said:


> i already acknowledged i can hurt people's feelings like an absolute boss. the difference is, i don't mean to. it just happens because i'm a dick! i literally wouldn't do it on purpose. i'd sooner smother you than do something that might emotionally cripple you for life.


That's you. How do you know it's like that for others? I'm not sure if it works like this for INFJs, because they are often downright sinister.
To be honest, ever since I got to know INFJs, most of conflicts I experience with them is when they lack empathy or have values that are based on some bizarre alien stuff (both of which I experience as unclean/sickening with my Fi).



Kaboomz said:


> i love the mis-use of quotes though. pro attempt at trolling...or was it an attempt to make a redundant point that i'd already addressed? i never assumed that Fi can't respect others feelings, I said that Fi prioritizes the feelings of the user over the feelings of others. it sounds like you're disagreeing, but your whole argument seems predicated on Fi users only being dickish because they suppress it via Te, which isn't giving yourselfs enough credit. you can be douchebags without being intellectual about it, just like i can be a prick without hiding behind my Fe homies


Te isn't intellectual. You're confusing it with Ti, I think. I'll write more about it further down. Also, tertiary Te is still my function.

I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm just sharing the knowledge I have.



Kaboomz said:


> let's look at the evidence matey.
> 
> -she's- been a forum member for over five years. she has nearly 10k posts. she actively loathes anyone who uses Fe because they are "spineless" "sheeple" and "fake" (just check her forum posts) and she has nearly 16k likes from a forum almost entirely comprised of Fi users...and she was typed ISFP, i'd say it's safe to assume she's in your camp.


I don't think it proves anything because she talked about how she assumes Fe works. Since she has no idea what Fe is, her opinion about what Fe is is completely irrelevant to whenever she's a Fe user or a Fi user.
Lots of people in XNFP forums like to pretend that cool anti-establishment INFJs they love like Kurt Cobain or Jim Morisson are INFPs.
Then, let's add that hilarious misinformation from celebrity mistypes in their "Fi vs. Fe video" when they have used an INFJ as an example of an INFP and an ENFP as an example of an INFJ...

ISFPs aren't in my camp. And she was typed ENFP, IIRC? Wait and apparently before that an INFP  ?

Anyway - one of her last posts  .
She also claims to be married to an INTJ.



Kaboomz said:


> i love that you're trying to hide all this under the carpet and hand her hateful little comments over to my neck of the woods. occam's broom is on overdrive hahaha. that tends to be how Fi/Te works, right? if something doesn't compute with the dominant feelings, the inferior Te will start rearranging to make it fit the feelings, rather than the other way around (you know, like Ti)


I'm Pod'Lair-ite, so I assume that most of people here are mistyped  .



Kaboomz said:


> i'm glad you clarified your point on the functions. i don't see why you think Te suppresses Fi. that implies that Fi users are somehow objective despite being intransigent regarding their own personal belief structure, which is just hilarious. even intj's struggle being objective because of their fi.


We're talking about empathy here, not about beliefs. Beliefs are mapped out in Si and Ni even when one isn't using Fi at the moment. Being in Ni-Te or Si-Te is different than being in Fi.
Fi is humane, but Te is callous. They are opposites. During debates or arguments or when ruminating, I very often ride on almost pure Te-Si.
I sneer or have neutral facial expression, my eyes narrow or look into distance. There's no humaneness involved. I think this may give an impression of selectivity of empathy. I used to think that it's Fi that is like that but then I have read up on Fi and what it does and what are its physiological cues and realised it's Te-Si, which is one of the reasons why structured debates and rumination exhausts me and sometimes turn ugly.

There's a difference between articulation of Fe users and Te users. Articulation of Fe users is warm, while articulation of Te users is cold.
I used to mistype as an INTP until I realised the importance of values.

In conflicts, what is going Fi to do? Cry? Well, it makes sense if there's some dependable Fe user around that would intervene. But usually doesn't happen. Fe users can use baneful Fe to fight and they stay in Fe, so they can stay aware of other's emotions. Fi users move to Te for articulation/conflict and Te is mechanical and dehumanizes people.

When it comes to Ti/Te and intellectualism...
Check out their power flows:
Ti

Te

I think that Ti is much more intellectual than Te and Te is much more action oriented.



Kaboomz said:


> i'm the first to admit i'm about as graceful as a bowling ball when it comes to other peoples' feelings, but i CANNOT HELP feeling bad when i upset someone. it might not be very visceral, and it might not last very long, but it is still there...but even my most compassionate IXFP friends don't have this problem. they can and will do what they want to others if they feel it is the right thing to do. i don't have a choice. your feelings almost override mine, which makes for a very rocky journey when you consider the trouble i am capable of causing them. Fi seems to only feel bad when it either relates to the subject on a personal level, or for some reasons violates it's own standards.


That's because Te goes for the win and feels triumphant when winning. Though I often/sometimes experience feeling bad about the whole business later when I'm in Fi again. Not sure exact incidence because I usually don't memorize it.



Kaboomz said:


> i also hate the clannish aspect of Fe. it's pathetic and sheep like imo, but then again, i operate on logic and lols, so my opinion of it shouldn't be lent too much credence, except for the fact that i am aware of other peoples' feelings to a greater extent than my own


That's like that thing that whateverwashername was talking about...


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## conroy (Jan 5, 2016)

Kaboomz said:


> i already acknowledged i can hurt people's feelings like an absolute boss. the difference is, i don't mean to. it just happens because i'm a dick! i literally wouldn't do it on purpose. i'd sooner smother you than do something that might emotionally cripple you for life.
> 
> i love the mis-use of quotes though. pro attempt at trolling...or was it an attempt to make a redundant point that i'd already addressed? i never assumed that Fi can't respect others feelings, I said that Fi prioritizes the feelings of the user over the feelings of others. it sounds like you're disagreeing, but your whole argument seems predicated on Fi users only being dickish because they suppress it via Te, which isn't giving yourselfs enough credit. you can be douchebags without being intellectual about it, just like i can be a prick without hiding behind my Fe homies
> 
> ...



You sound like an idiot, just stop.


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## umop 3pisdn (Apr 4, 2014)

desecrationsmile said:


> I know this might sound harsh but I find myself sort of losing empathy (and sympathy) for someone that I perceive as faking their way through life. I guess in some way I can understand it, but I can't respect it. and I find Fi really needs to respect the person to feel any sort of affinity for them. That's my opinion anyways as a Fi user.


When we have gripes with each other, I think Fe users generally find Fi boring, and Fi users find Fe shallow. Same with Te/Ti, when they have a problem Te users find Ti boring, and Ti users find Te shallow. So assuming that there is a disconnect, or we're annoyed with how the other person does things, I don't think we're likely to get what we want from the other type of person. And I think that's okay, our frustration shouldn't stem from other people not doing things our way, maybe we just can't get everything from everyone.

I don't want to slow down my affective verve or charm so people with your perspective will respect me more, that feels like imposing a dull or heavy burden on something fun that I do well. I'm sure Te types feel the same way when I get annoyed at their blunt adherence to facts and lack of logical nuance or precision. Maybe it's okay to acknowledge that we just do things in ways that the other person has no interest in, as long as we appreciate that there are valid reasons for the difference.


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## Kaboomz (Jun 14, 2016)

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar said:


> That's you. How do you know it's like that for others? I'm not sure if it works like this for INFJs, because they are often downright sinister.
> To be honest, ever since I got to know INFJs, most of conflicts I experience with them is when they lack empathy or have values that are based on some bizarre alien stuff (both of which I experience as unclean/sickening with my Fi).


personal bias. great basis for an argument regarding human feeling.




> Te isn't intellectual. You're confusing it with Ti, I think. I'll write more about it further down. Also, tertiary Te is still my function.
> 
> I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm just sharing the knowledge I have.


thinking is intellectual. when i said inferior, i meant it was below your feeling function, unlike an intellectual fi user like the TJ's, ie it wasn't taking precedent 




> I don't think it proves anything because she talked about how she assumes Fe works. Since she has no idea what Fe is, her opinion about what Fe is is completely irrelevant to whenever she's a Fe user or a Fi user.
> Lots of people in XNFP forums like to pretend that cool anti-establishment INFJs they love like Kurt Cobain or Jim Morisson are INFPs.
> Then, let's add that hilarious misinformation from celebrity mistypes in their "Fi vs. Fe video" when they have used an INFJ as an example of an INFP and an ENFP as an example of an INFJ...


i don't think it proves anything either. i think the fact she goes around looking for fights with people she considers different and thus inferior based on some pseudopsychology is indicative of someone who makes decisions based on her feelings rather than others. i just lent her due credence since she's a far more active member than either of us and should hopefully have some form of self awareness. just take her, please. she's been typed Fi for over five years. accept it. you guys are just as cunt-capable as us. congratulations. 



> ISFPs aren't in my camp. And she was typed ENFP, IIRC? Wait and apparently before that an INFP  ?
> 
> Anyway - one of her last posts  .
> She also claims to be married to an INTJ.


ISFPs are Fi. you are Fi. she's in your camp. this semantic bullshit is wearing thin




> I'm Pod'Lair-ite, so I assume that most of people here are mistyped  .


dunno what that is. which is the only reason i might respond to you after i've finished typing this inane diatribe, assuming it's in any way interesting xD



> We're talking about empathy here, not about beliefs. Beliefs are mapped out in Si and Ni even when one isn't using Fi at the moment. Being in Ni-Te or Si-Te is different than being in Fi.
> Fi is humane, but Te is callous. They are opposites. During debates or arguments or when ruminating, I very often ride on almost pure Te-Si.
> I sneer or have neutral facial expression, my eyes narrow or look into distance. There's no humaneness involved. I think this may give an impression of selectivity of empathy. I used to think that it's Fi that is like that but then I have read up on Fi and what it does and what are its physiological cues and realised it's Te-Si, which is one of the reasons why structured debates and rumination exhausts me and sometimes turn ugly.


That's you. How do you know it's like that for others?





> There's a difference between articulation of Fe users and Te users. Articulation of Fe users is warm, while articulation of Te users is cold.
> I used to mistype as an INTP until I realised the importance of values.


i thought we were talking about empathy...not values  haha, this is actually quite a fun way to play debate. zero thinking required -_-

honestly, i have to go to work in an hour and i think this is one of those mature moments when we should just agree to disagree. if you disagree to agree to disagree, i'll read your reply and lend it due credence, but you're jumping on me because someone who has claimed to be an Fi user since 2011 and has thus been banned from the forum for demonstrating the worst attributes of that function and as such have no way of proving me wrong beyond heresay is my example of why Fi is a selective form of empathy (and i don't even believe empathy exists, so i hope that lends some perspective on how funny and frustrating this is becoming for me). i'm sure i just look like an idiot who doesn't know wtf he is talking about and is jumping to conclusions based on the misconduct of some other idiot who also didn't understand the functions, but since i've already taken occam's broom out of the cupboard, i may as well get the razor too and point out that the more assumptions you have to draw, the less likely your theory is to be accurate.



conroy said:


> You sound like an idiot, just stop.


you just entered a conversation with a self proclaimed idiot. welcome to my level, dumbass


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## Female INFJ (Feb 27, 2010)

@Kaboomz - I love your post thanks! I was expecting to be judged. But now I see fun bubbles and I feel happy! Swelling in my Infj heart - can we be friends! I miss Entp in my life. A friend of mind left town to pursue his awesome career he was top of his class in economics.


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