# Introverted Thinkers seem to Dodge Self Improvement / Self Maintenance



## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

Petyr Baelish said:


> I've mostly skimmed through this thread, although I find this topic to be interesting. I will revisit this thread when I have more time, but this stood out to me so I thought I would address it.
> 
> I think you are mistaken here and there has to be some bias, when you are addressing your own type. Now, there may be some bias here too, but from what I understand, the INTJ is very independent and has goals that they are _actually_ able to meet. The INTP, on the other end of the spectrum, is very similar in terms of independence, but usually they can't meet their goals, on their own, due to their inherent nature of not being able to commit to it, make decisions and take actions. This makes them much more likely to ask for help and get help, because they can't do it on their own. _However_, The thing that I've noted from INTPs is that they feel like the help they received from someone is exactly "help" but rather something they were entitled to. So really, an INTP could be asking for all the help in the world, but wouldn't realize it or consider it "help". Maybe they think that they are helping themselves, because they took the action to ask someone for their assistance. I really don't know why...
> 
> I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I have lived nearly my entire life with an INTP sibling, so I do have some information worth sharing.


The quote you were replying to was about solving problems. They may ask for more help getting the job done, but they still want to independently design the framework for how it will be solved, not take someone else's ready-made solution.


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## Petyr Baelish (Aug 13, 2014)

pernoctator said:


> What's wrong with these things? Your statements seem to include the premise that the suggestion *is* intrinsically good and that the strength *is* intrinsically useful, but obviously the hypothetical Ti user in the scenario doesn't agree. So perhaps your real frustration is "Introverted Thinkers seem to disagree with my judgments", and in that case, well, too bad. Maybe you give bad advice.
> 
> I don't think there is anything careless about taking common "sense" with a grain of salt; quite the opposite. And I don't think we deny weaknesses. We're intensely critical and ourselves are no exception.


I have seen it all the time with Ti users. Because the advice/criticism came from a third-party, they won't even give it a chance or consider it, and it gets immediately swept under the rug. Now if this were an intelligent discussion with ideas being thrown around, then they will think about it and consider it, and even value/appreciate thoughts from outsiders. 

Now, unsolicited advice clearly appears to tick them off. But I have a case where I was asked for advice by an INTP and when I gave it out -- now I don't know if it was because he found my advice to be illogical or maybe it was because it didn't validate his own preconceived thoughts and ideas -- but the INTP backlashed and start yelling at me. Like wow. I guess they feel as though the advisor is belittling them and attacking their individuality and thinking, even though he or she may just be trying to help.

Regarding self-improvement, Ti users do pursue it, but by their own accord.


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## Petyr Baelish (Aug 13, 2014)

pernoctator said:


> The quote you were replying to was about solving problems. They may ask for more help getting the job done, but they still want to independently design the framework for how it will be solved, not take someone else's ready-made solution.


Solving problems, meeting goals -- they are interrelated and not exactly mutually exclusive. Now you appear to be exhibiting some of the Ti behavior being discussed in this thread by defending your internal system, and refusing to agree with the third-party criticism that you may be somewhat of a lazy person when it comes to making a decision and taking action, by offering an alternate view that your type would _still_ do something important, as part of the process. You ask for help, but you're not lazy?


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## Langa24 (Aug 18, 2014)

I_am_the_NiTe said:


> Thank you for your responses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you've described. Others perception of me is a direct force on my actions in some way or another. I'm at home in my mind so irl I feel more at the mercy of those that exist there..so to speak. However I can also see the world with a sense of a...god complex..I suppose. As a spec in the vast and endless universe. What i do here, what anyone does in this world means absolutely nothing on a grand scale. Hence, our existence infinitely tiny held up to the grand scheme of the universe, our time here, a blink of the eye.

Sorry for not making much sense in the end. Can't put words to the thoughts. Too many voices, so to speak.

Will try again with a better state of mind. Lol


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## Math geek (Jul 23, 2014)

I_am_the_NiTe said:


> I see where you’re coming from. The reason I might take issue with this need for personal space sometimes is it’s viewed as a lack of trust. We aren’t doing it for the sake of violation of your personal decision making, but sometimes we see your decision making as inexpedient. Like it or not, we’re all physical entities, and are therefore at the mercy of the physical world. People’s feelings and people’s goals aren’t always going to wait for your understanding. But other people’s feelings and other people’s goals can and will affect you in tangible ways. Ti probably does (generally speaking,) know what is good for the user, but it is not omniscient. It is blind to some things, like all functions are. I take issue when Ti users think they have the complete picture of what is good for them, and that no external input can tell them better. All functions have blind spots. Trust me, I know it hurts to be forced into accepting or doing something before it is fully understood, but sometimes that is what is necessary to keep things peaceful/productive/expedient/healthy.


That's what YOU think... 

You do realize that the target audience is perceivers (TPs)? Ti isn't like Te without a way out. The problem isn't that we feel we know better. It's that we know we don't. The total opposite. Your perspective seems to be that Ti is like Te in its judgments, only not given the test of the outside world. Actually, Ti doubts itself a ton and strives to find the best, most robust epistemological system, doubting that, revising it, doubting it... It tries to structure things by what it _knows_ has to be true, and what is probably true is in a separate folder requiring complete validation. We are skeptics because we inspect what most just assume, as if it might not be right.



I_am_the_NiTe said:


> Similar response to this as what I said to Math Geek. Ti has blind-spots, I know it’s uncomfortable, but we have beef with XXTPs sometimes because they hinder things that affect those around them, directly or indirectly, because of Ti’s great need for independence. It is a great strength but also a weakness, especially when there are blind spots. I take issue when XXTPs are walking around thinking they’re automatically better than the system because their conclusions were arrived at internally.
> 
> Although it applies less strictly to you, I encourage you to read the above responses. I understand that need, although it probably hurts me less than Ti users. No one wants to be forced into something they don’t see the complete merit in.


 I think you figured I was a broken record because this is the third response to the same type of thing. Just know that we aren't intellectual narcissists. We don't let nothing in because we feel the world is completely unreliable. Which brings me to...



I_am_the_NiTe said:


> Why? Is it assumed that all people are inherently evil, and all things that are made to be more convincing [more logical] should be treated with greater scrutiny than things that are free-standing?
> 
> ‘“They say it's only important because the external world has imposed it, not because it is intrinsically useful."
> What's wrong with [this]?'"
> ...


Simple. It's all about balance.

When we debate in our minds about something to discover objective truth, we try to balance all sides and bring all of the arguments to equal consideration. Does that still work when we're reading and a ton of weight in what we're reading goes to one argument? We impulsively know that we need not advocate for an argument that already has a lawyer. We add to the others, to compensate, so that we don't come to the wrong conclusion. We find the arguments that are legitimate and withstand being bombed, hit with a blade, sat on and shot. We then add them to our list of reasons that argument may be true.

It's not that people are stupid and believe the total opposite of what the truth is 100% of the time.




I_am_the_NiTe said:


> The only issue I have with this is when they both disagree and are incommunicable. When they say I shouldn’t impose (even though I very well may be correct,) and then end the discussion there. I don’t always have room to engage their logic. It’s just a “no” answer. I have no way of knowing they’ve actually considered all my premises.


If you wanted to cram something into us, we want to feel like we have the option of continuing with our own mind's thinking and being able to think about what we want to think about. If we don't want to be approached and told why we are wrong about a topic we may or may not have solid opinions, and we may or may not care/have interest in it enough to be receptive to argument, why should we? Because Mr. Te said so? Also, we are only as receptive as Ne decides to be. Ne is very funny sometimes. It has energy spikes, being a perceiver, so it may not be the right weather outside for you to share. It may perceive that the argument is, or is probably, wrong. It also may not trust someone's opinions or it may have seen how quickly they jump to conclusions or how incorrect they often are. There are many other factors, but, you get it. Since Ne/Se (I said Ne, not remembering that included STPs as well, sorry) fuels skepticism, and it acts as a door to the inside world, you can't order your way in. In the end, we have to claim the decision because we don't like to be controlled, or told what to think. Same for INTJs, right?



I_am_the_NiTe said:


> Health (like brain health for instance,) directly affects your ability to contemplate, reason, and learn, so shouldn’t this be seen as growth? You can increase, not merely maintain your cognitive ability based on how you care for physical entities like your brain and your body.
> 
> Obedience isn’t necessarily competence, but it can exert an effect on competence. Since no function is all-perceiving, doing a little bit of what is uncomfortable to you can only help right? It can’t hurt to develop the areas you are less good at, no? Even if you don’t currently see those things as important? Am I wrong?


Sure. But just like you guys like to look externally with logic, and try to voice most of your logic and apply it. Ti feels like there are too many variables to voice, too many caveats, to be able to voice what they have against someone. Your logic must be placed in battle only when you feel like you have enough men and supplies to give all you've got and truly prove who is actually stronger. Extraverting a ton of logic would multiply cynicism and resentment. Our extraverted function is not logical, thus logic passing directly into the heart does not happen. That's not the same thing as not stepping outside our comfort zone, because the way we take in others' opinions is similar to you guys internalizing a strategy game. Can you tell me why your unconscious wants you to use such-and such a strategy on the first game? Probably not. We take in arguments as a whole, scan for bias, ask questions about their opinion, all that stuff, and then start figuring things out. In all of the confusion in the world, we need to be very picky about what we take in or else we might be wrong in our quest for wisdom. We also like to think and get pleasure figuring stuff out. Our block in our brain would be used for future problem solving and we would be corrupted!!!! No way that's happening, no matter how much the Te criticizes us about it. Not that we want to be right all of the time in a stuck up manner, we need to know what the truth really is because believing something blindly that may be false is the most stupid thing we can imagine doing. Basically: we do, just with an irrational function. We use Ne to take stuff in. Ne and Si.

As far as health, you're right; that came to me a while back and it is an influence on my choices.


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## Math geek (Jul 23, 2014)

Petyr Baelish said:


> Solving problems, meeting goals -- they are interrelated and not exactly mutually exclusive. Now you appear to be exhibiting some of the Ti behavior being discussed in this thread by defending your internal system, and refusing to agree with the third-party criticism that you may be somewhat of a lazy person when it comes to making a decision and taking action, by offering an alternate view that your type would _still_ do something important, as part of the process. You ask for help, but you're not lazy?


No, being given a task without freedom has the fun taken out of it. It's not us knowing better. Also, how does us defending our internal structure prove anything?

You know what? Te is too superficial to mean anything, whether it's correct is up to chance. More than that, though, it is a know-it-all, sharing what it "knows" and gets offended and argumentative with anyone who doesn't think the same. How's that? You're more stubborn than Ti ever was. I think I'll stop caring your opinion.



Okay, I was kidding. Ignore that. How did you feel when you read that?, though? Did you feel like the resulting argument would probably at least look like what was described above? Also, you were talking about us not taking any advice to heart. This defense isn't advice, it's a limiting, destructive view of one of the cognitive functions. If anything, you're saying, on the internet, that we need to integrate ourselves in a certain way, especially, due to our dysfunctional nature. Of course, that is if you view it as a persuasive argument. It looked at first like a desire to understand with a request to explain why the opinion is faulty. No hard feelings?


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

Petyr Baelish said:


> Solving problems, meeting goals -- they are interrelated and not exactly mutually exclusive. Now you appear to be exhibiting some of the Ti behavior being discussed in this thread by defending your internal system, and refusing to agree with the third-party criticism that you may be somewhat of a lazy person when it comes to making a decision and taking action, by offering an alternate view that your type would _still_ do something important, as part of the process. You ask for help, but you're not lazy?


Seriously? We were both speaking in generalities, but now you're judging me individually based on what I said? What does my internal system have to do with it? Or what does laziness even have to do with what I said, for that matter? I didn't say anything about anyone being lazy or not lazy, let alone myself. I was hardly even arguing with you, but rather giving a slightly different perspective to your observations. Can you not handle that? Talk about rejecting third-party ideas...


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## pernoctator (May 1, 2012)

Petyr Baelish said:


> I have seen it all the time with Ti users. Because the advice/criticism came from a third-party, they won't even give it a chance or consider it, and it gets immediately swept under the rug.


I think you're making the mistake of interpreting outward reactions of Ti users based on what would produce the same outward reaction in yourself, as a Te user. If you consider it, you externalize your consideration. If you're not externalizing it, you've probably swept it under the rug.

But that's not how it works for us. We work like Valve. Nothing is released at all until it's done, and it's never done on time, but we're always satisfied.




I_am_the_NiTe said:


> I take issue when Ti users think they have the complete picture of what is good for them, and that no external input can tell them better.





I_am_the_NiTe said:


> I take issue when XXTPs are walking around thinking they’re automatically better than the system because their conclusions were arrived at internally.


I think your problem may be that you think these are the same thing. This is similar to what I'm saying above to Petyr. As a Te user, you think having the "better" conclusion means having the more complete picture. But most of these Ti users you're talking about probably _don't_ think they have the complete picture. To them their conclusions are better, more pure, because of their acknowledgement of how _incomplete_ the picture is.

Functions don't have blind spots, people do. Of course there are introverted judgers who think they're "automatically better" than the system, just as there are extraverted judgers who think they're "automatically better" than the outliers. At least the introverted judgers tend to keep those thoughts to themselves.


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## Old Intern (Nov 20, 2012)

@_I_am_the_NiTe_ 
I don't care what is "good" for me. That would be Fi. 

I care about what will understandably or logically be counter-productive or stand in the way of what interests me.
I know if I go without morning coffee or if I eat sugar all day - I pay a price. I know if I don't cut myself off from coffee by early afternoon I pay a more physical (less mental) price. I know I pay a price literally for not taking care of my teeth.

BUT if I follow recommendations of respected health publications (generally speaking - or stay on top of every "new discovery") - will I EVER KNOW if any of that made any difference?


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## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

I actually love self-improvement, but I like doing it and figuring it out on my own. Ti is a puzzle function, so it is almost an affront to it when someone tries to tell me how to do something best. If that makes any sense. Also, take into account the following example:

My brother (also my boss) owns a cleaning business. I work for him. He asks me to be ready on time (despite the fact that he is usually the late one, haha... oh ENTPs). One day, he texts me, asking if I am ready. I said I would be in about five minutes. About two minutes later, I sent him another text saying I was wrong, and I am ready now. But it doesn't go through. I don't notice. He replies saying that five minutes is too long.

I don't want to go on time now, simply because he'll think he nagged me out of the house, and that it'll work if he nags me again. That sort of thing will bother me. I mean, I went on time anyway, because I wanted to go and get it over with, but it didn't make me happy. That specific thing was more a stab at my pride than my Ti, but I'm sure you get the picture.

My Ti is usually annoyed when people try to tell me how to do certain things I've already researched and decided on or am not yet ready for (like, publishing a book or something. I have to write it first!) Advice is GREAT. Its when they get pushy that it bothers me.

But yeah, I think the issues you are suffering aren't the high Ti. Its the low Fe. I am an HSP so I have higher Fe than a normal INTP but I still suffer the issues of low Fe. We also have a tendency to see every aspect of things and so it is really horrible to us when we see how we aren't as good at ____ as _____. See, we know how it SHOULD work, but are cursed to not be able to achieve it for some reason or another. I didn't even think I was a thinker for a long time because my ENTP family members played pranks on me while I was growing up, and thus made me feel like an idiot half the time.


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## monemi (Jun 24, 2013)

I don't think this is likely true with EXTP's. Xe-Ti-Fe-Xi We are socially aware and aren't likely to dismiss or immediately accept an idea or wisdom from an outside source. I'm independent in thought but willing to accept external ideas.


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## lookslikeiwin (May 6, 2014)

monemi said:


> I don't think this is likely true with EXTP's. Xe-Ti-Fe-Xi We are socially aware and aren't likely to dismiss or immediately accept an idea or wisdom from an outside source. I'm independent in thought but willing to accept external ideas.


I would agree with this too. My mom (ENTP) is really good at dealing with new ideas and better ways of doing things. She gets really irritated when I strip down her ideas because I don't think they'll work XD (Ne vs Ti battle). But she is always open and easygoing.


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