# Do looks matter? yes. How important are looks in dating really? for both men and women? (how people care about looks)



## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

islandlight said:


> I long-distance dated a man and "fell in love." I had seen his photo and knew he wasn't handsome, but I didn't care.
> 
> When I finally met him in person at the airport, there was a moment of "I don't like his looks, what am I going to do?" But just a moment. I made a conscious decision to get over it.
> 
> ...


I agree that it does take time to get to know someone and build a relationship or even build attraction. But in some cases looks can give us some key clues and evoke certain physiological responses besides attraction. I’m talking about fear, sense of safety, respect, apathy, disgust, etc. It looks like that’s what happened when you finally had a chance to see the angry man.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> From an MMA perspective, I can see your emphasis on athleticism. But I would add that a willingness and desire to help someone else makes you a brave protector, no matter the size. It’s something intangible in your “spirit” if I may allow myself a woo woo moment.


You get two monthly woo woo moments. One left


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

islandlight said:


> I sometimes hear women enthusing about men's looks. But I've never really understood it. Nice to look at for 5 seconds, yes, but not something to gravitate toward.
> 
> I'm more attracted to a nice personality and good personal qualities. I can be attracted to an ugly man if he acts decent.
> 
> ...


So 2 men with the same personality, one looks amazing and the other looks like an ugly hobo, which do you pick? Even if you place personality above looks, looks still plays a role as the example I just gave.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Purrfessor said:


> All is fair in love and war. If you're turned off by him that's fair.
> 
> I would say women are usually interested in height when it comes to looks. The guys they are into are tall, but look terrible because the proportions are off. They don't care about the terrible proportions they just want that height.
> 
> ...


Height and beauty are 2 different things IMO, you can be Shaq size but ugly af and you can also be Tom Cruise's height but handsome af.


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

Purrfessor said:


> Yeah tall only has the illusion / appearance of a protector. To actually be a protector you have to train. I'm trained in mixed martial arts for example. I'm also very buff. However I'm 5 foot 5ish. Women call me cute. It's devastating. Because I'm an enneagram 6 and 6s are the best protectors. However I'm just not seen that way.
> 
> I only respect tall people for being tall if it's accompanied by athleticism. WWE superstars for example earn my respect because they aren't just tall, they're literally hard working, heavily trained, nourished, athletes. No bitterness cuz they're better than me, just admiration and respect.
> 
> If you're tall and you don't work out and you don't train and you aren't an athlete, then you shouldn't be seen as a "protector". I'll respect their life choices, but I won't respect their physique.


It's more than just being a protector, when you look at a photo and the girl is notably taller than the guy, most of society would think it looks off or wrong or unsightly, women generally cares greatly about what society thinks so she will in turn be bothered by it.

So reasons why women dislike short men;

1. She feels less protected/more masculine/stronger than she wants to be, the dude "looks like her son" as most women put it
2. Hypergamy generally dates/marries across and up, so her looking up to you satisfies that hypergamy better than her looking down on u
3. Society doesn't approve
4. Women seem to think their heels are a part of their height so they want u taller than her while she wears platform heels meaning u need to be significantly taller


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## ENTJudgement (Oct 6, 2013)

OrchidSugar said:


> From an MMA perspective, I can see your emphasis on athleticism. But I would add that a willingness and desire to help someone else makes you a brave protector, no matter the size. It’s something intangible in your “spirit” if I may allow myself a woo woo moment.


I think competence is more important than just having a "desire" to protect, I've seen many weak people "try" stand up for what they thought was right only to get hospitalized. Train and get strong before confronting people or you become a liability urself.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

ENTJudgement said:


> I think competence is more important than just having a "desire" to protect, I've seen many weak people "try" stand up for what they thought was right only to get hospitalized. Train and get strong before confronting people or you become a liability urself.


Nah man. Just need to be bought up by a tough ass mum:


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

ENTJudgement said:


> I think competence is more important than just having a "desire" to protect, I've seen many weak people "try" stand up for what they thought was right only to get hospitalized. Train and get strong before confronting people or you become a liability urself.


A weak person that gets knocked down is preferable to a strong one that doesn’t do shit with the prowess they’ve been given.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Dezir said:


> Everybody had different standards for looks, so a minimum threshold requirement. But everybody has a threshold, and for everybody anything above that threshold is a bonus.


This is true usually, but there are exceptions. I don't necessarily like if my partner is so good looking that it draws a lot of attention to us as a couple or when I sense others thinking, "WTF is she with him for?" This isn't something that comes from insecurity. Some people really do stare too much.


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## SouDesuNyan (Sep 8, 2015)

The problem I see with people in both ends of the looks spectrum is that they are usually very focused on their looks. This means a lot of emotional issues caused by society which I wouldn't want to deal with. Personally, I prefer dating women who are physically and mentally healthy, regardless of looks. It seems like a low bar, but it's actually not, at least in the US, where most people have physical health issues like eating unhealthy foods, inactivity, or being overweight. And mental/emotional issues from stress at work, making poor financial choices, or believing in stupid ideologies from religions/politics/social media. Minus all of those issues, I think it leaves with less than 20% of the population.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

OrchidSugar said:


> A weak person that gets knocked down is preferable to a strong one that doesn’t do shit with the prowess they’ve been given.


It really depends on the situation, a lot of the time standing up for yourself/others and perpetuating altercations is more dangerous than deescalating or walking away. You really have no idea what some people are thinking and are capable of doing to yourself and to those closest to you, and this may not end up being a one time situation. If my partner just wants to see me be all “alpha” instead of being smart then that’s enough reason for me to walk away from her as well. I may have extrapolated from the topic a bit but just adding some cents.


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

intranst said:


> It really depends on the situation, a lot of the time standing up for yourself/others and perpetuating altercations is more dangerous than deescalating or walking away. You really have no idea what some people are thinking and are capable of doing to yourself and to those closest to you, and this may not end up being a one time situation. If my partner just wants to see me be all “alpha” instead of being smart then that’s enough reason for me to walk away from her as well. I may have extrapolated from the topic a bit but just adding some cents.


Mhmm - I do see the nuance you're bringing. Where restraint becomes a strength.


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## cyber-bully (6 mo ago)

I never understood why women are supposed to care about height I think it's just a stereotype like women liking shoes a lot or whatever
It's a neutral value it's so funny it can't be attractive or unattractive

Beauty is of course the most important thing in life besides power and entertainment, I wouldn't date someone just as an asset for money or bodyguard skills while I can afford it
Either way what do people need to be protected from? War? Day to day life can be dealt with

They're just insects you can trap them I had a house in the suburbs besides the city so i learned this, if you chase a spider it will run away

I don't think I care about gender that much

That said when people call me cute in that sense it's also annoying asf although it's intended to be


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## OrchidSugar (5 mo ago)

cyber-bully said:


> Either way what do people need to be protected from? War? Day to day life can be dealt with


If you can't think of the many things people need to be protected from then congrats on being God's favorite. Many women (and people in general) find themselves in various states of physical and psychological unsafety. Women are also more concerned with day to day safety for themselves and their children. The average woman will tell you that the thought crosses their mind several times a day. I don't agree with using height as a measurement to predict future protection, but I think it is a subconscious thought.



cyber-bully said:


> They're just insects you can trap them I had a house in the suburbs besides the city so i learned this, if you chase a spider it will run away.


Insects are fast and can flatten their bodies beneath any crevice. Some of them will happily eat their fill and proceed to reproduce in your home, creating an infestation or even causing illnesses. I will readily admit to having a _somewhat_ irrational fear, but I will argue that it must be a very ancient, heritable one. Unlike many other scary things that happen, the sight of a palmetto roach climbing up from the bathtub or a black jumping spider aggressively hunting on my kitchen counter, activates my fight/flight/freeze response. 

As silly as this is, my point in all this is to say that in a relationship, one person will be better at something than the other. If you're the more organized, then you make sure the bills are paid. If you're the most creative, you help the kid with their science project. If you have no moral qualms and no inherent fear of insects, for god's sake please handle it for your partner who's clearly in distress. The issue isn't really the insect in the end, because of course as a single person, you would have to find the courage to kill your own spiders. But here too the scenario is a stand in for a deeper issue: Seeing your partner in a state of distress has no effect on you and does not activate within you a need to problem solve or protect.


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## intranst (Jul 13, 2021)

The whole need for protection could be somewhat type dependent too. Like, I have to constantly shove my Fi under a rock just to survive and strain my brain when paying attention to my surroundings is paramount. No joke I could use a protector lol


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

I really do not agree with this assertion for myself. However I do know that a majority of people base things off of looks. Based on observing friends/family. 

I have a track record of being with a variety and range of appearances. I have had friends/family etc comment on how 'weird' my range is.


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## cyber-bully (6 mo ago)

Oh that’s super valid a complementary use of eveyrone’s skills in the way that is the most useful and efficient good take

I think I meant that the world is dangerous in general, for everyone. People may need different tactics but still applies



OrchidSugar said:


> Seeing your partner in a state of distress has no effect on you and does not activate within you a need to problem solve or protect.


Lmfao imagine doing this


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

Asexuality exists. Looks are irrelevant to me. Interestingly, romantic attraction literally doesn't care about physical appearance at all. I have no "type" or "aesthetic" preference whatsoever. Romantic love and ideological compatibility is all that matters to me.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

SilentScream said:


> Asexuality exists. Looks are irrelevant to me. Interestingly, romantic attraction literally doesn't care about physical appearance at all. I have no "type" or "aesthetic" preference whatsoever. Romantic love and ideological compatibility is all that matters to me.


Sorry dunno if your into men and/or women. But anyways:



















































You saying the above would do it for you as long as there was a romantic connection? Would you go out your way to see if there was a romantic connection with them?


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## SilentScream (Mar 31, 2011)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> Sorry dunno if your into men and/or women. But anyways:
> 
> View attachment 908539
> 
> ...


You didn't make the point that you were trying to make, but you did make several other points that I don't think I'll let you know and just keep to myself because your post tells me more than you wanted to tell me about yourself. Allosexuals project. And it's fascinating to learn more and more about them. The more I do, the less I like most of them. 

Your question doesn't require a serious answer from me, but I'll give it to you anyways. I've already responded to this question before you asked me.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Plenty of comments arguing against looks being the main factor, I still think that looks matter the most.

And yes, personality matters, but looks matter more.

This may be off-putting, offensive or demoralizing to some, but I think it's best to acknowledge the reality, acknowledge what you can and can't improve, and work with what you can improve.

Only when you can acknowledge the reality you can make the best decisions available. And I'm not saying this as an "I'm right" but rather "don't let emotions get in the way of your reason".

Saying that looks matter the most doesn't say that personality, or being good with attraction in general or if your personality match and are on the same "wave" or common interest don't matter. They say that the better looks you have, the less your personality or game or personality match matters.

Yes, personality matters, but looks matter more.

Have a great personality and keep the girl engaged. Having engaging conversations where you have fun with one another.

As I made the case above with personalities that match, being funny, having things in common, etc.

All of these, are also important stuff.

You can have a great personality and get along together perfectly and be very happy together, you can 'click' really well.

Getting along and having a good time with that person. Having a sweet personality.

And when it comes to personality there's advice that you should improve as best as you can there as well.

Admittedly, one may say "women don't care about looks as much as men, women care about personality". I don't think this is true.

Both genders care about looks and personality. But for both genders, looks play a bigger part than personality at least at first.

Having a great personality is important, but not everything.

*And if your personality really matches I can totally see how you can compromise on looks.*

But generally, you have to go through looks before you can get to personality. And sometimes, if you're really bad looking, not even personality can help you. By contrast, if you're really good looking, your looks can easily carry your personality, you just have to be there.

*We all care about personality, how we get along with that person, how fun they are*. And so, when some people may think of "looks vs personality" they may imagine a good looking person with a terrible personality (who is kind of a jerk) and a slightly less good looking person but still handsome with a great personality (who engages with her stuff like that, pays attention).

This is not meant to be a fatalist idea at all. You should improve everything you can improve about yourself. A small difference may not seem like much, but if you make multiple small differences, they stack.

*For example: parfume, haircut, style, hygene, teeths, etc.*

That being said it's perfectly understandable that most people can't take plastic surgery to improve their looks, but there are multiple things you can improve about your looks that won't cost you 2000$. And the biggest of all without being dead expensive is going to the gym.

You can go to the gym or buy some equipment and workout at home.

There's plenty of things you can work on you probably didn't even think of: posture, beard, breath, skin care, nose hair, clean ears, facial expressions, eyebrow thickness, etc.

There's no point telling people "you're beautiful" when you don't get any girlfriends, it's not helping. This is why I think it's important that people learn that looks matter.

Because if you're very good looking or average good looking. You can get a girlfriend/boyfriend without much of a hussle. But if you're terrible looking, it's your looks that get in the way, except nobody tells you that because people tell you "looks don't matter", "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", etc; so you never get to the real core of the issue and eventually start on a journey to improve your looks.

It's not only about having genetically good looks, but also about maintaining them.

And yes, personality matters, but looks matter more.

If you look good, people are attracted to you, would you disagree with that? it's as simple as that.

And again, saying that looks matter isn't a complete dismissal of personality. Personality matters.

To be engaging and fun.

Having a great time with that person, laughing together.

*Enjoying each other's personality and having a good time with each other.*

"I look at her and I appreciate her personality"
"She looks at me and she appreciates my personality"

Having a good time and enjoying each other while talking to each other.

*Hot people get a lot of attention from men. And hot men get a lot of attention from women.*

You may say better some cold indifference than desperation.

*You may say "poor thing".*

But at the end of the day, I think it's hard to deny that looks matter.

*And yes, some people want an emotional connection, some people want to be with someone that can pour their heart out.*

But would you want to be with someone with an emotional connection who can pour his heart out that is significantly worse looking than you? like 2-3 leagues below you. If that thought made you stutter, there is your answer.

Good people like people with depth, with sensitivity, with care. Again, not saying these things aren't true. I'm saying looks are often overlooked when compared to that.

Some people that can "feel" with each other.

Where you can have a serious discussion with depth and care. Where you can make the other person "pour its heart out". But even then I think that looks are going to matter more than we actively give them credit for, even if we don't think about them.

That feeling of closeness & emotional connection can only lead to a relationship if you also have the looks to match.

Otherwise, you can be just a really close friend, that get each other, as in friendzone.

Cool, slick, social value and teasing. These are the values society wants. Like talking to people from an upwards position because you're cool. Dominating the conversation. "I'm the boss, I'm the slick, like ay", because I am in the car. I have value. I have social value. People want to be like me. Cousin.

*Most jokes are based on inappropriate things or breaking expectations, so they are by definition inappropriate, but that doesn't mean they are for real*. To know how to behave in society, to be decent and courteous, polite and helpful. Communication, find a subject the other person is interested about, to be interesting be interested. And be cool, slick, social value, like ay.

All useful stuff, just like a serious emotional connection is useful. Again, not saying no, but still saying that looks matter more than these.

You got to get cooler if you want to get more attractive. So that she looks at you even though you are with somewhere else in the vecinity and aren't looking at her. To have attractiveness and a drawing charisma as well as you two getting along together.

There's the general idea. Keep that picture in mind where she looks at you even though you are with somewhere else in the vecinity and aren't looking at her, because you are just so attractive. And you 2 get along. >: ) (), I II. Looks and social presence as well as personal closeness together. That's a general idea or way it.

We want closeness, getting personal, but also looks, fun, jokes with a bit of evilness but also not, pretended evilness with gloves, non-offensive jokes, shooting with blind bullets, not saying anything true or offensive, not making fun of something that is true about them, also fun in general, and mostly weirdness, things out of the ordinary, it's more of a test whether your personalities match, what you like and they like, what you are like as a general attitude and they are like as a general attitude match, the things you enjoy and way of being, that's where the chemistry comes from. And social charisma and looks.

So yeah, don't lose sight of personality, because it's important as well, but looks matter as well. Even more than personality in my opinion.

*It's great to have someone saying "how are you feeling?" but if you have someone saying "how are you feeling?" and they are a 3 while you are an 8, it's friendzone, clearly.

Taking care of their feelings*. *Like in the car and I'm making sure they have a good time*.

*Be cool, be slick, that feeling you have in the care, social value*. To be wannable, to have social value, to have what others want to have, what others appreciate.

What does that mean? high value, to have traits or abilities that others desire. *That's why it's not cool to pick up on people, that it wasn't cool, it lowers your social value, it lowers his appropriation in his eyes*.

Cool, slick, social value and teasing. These are the values society wants. Like talking to people from an upwards position because you're cool. Dominating the conversation. "I'm the boss, I'm the slick, like ay", because I am in the car. I have value. I have social value. People want to be like me. Cousin.

*To be slick, wannable, a good deal, but to also know how to touch people*.

That is what it means to have social value. People want to be like you. That feeling of cool like you're driving through the neighborhood and going to the store. Wannable as in accepted and liked. This is why to pick up on people is bad, it wouldn't make you either liked or accepted.

*The easiest way to get social value is to get good looking*. *Second place is charisma*. Which includes teasing but also others concerning your behavior.

*This concept of cool, slick, that feeling in the car, social value, wannabe*. And explaining that it's relative. *You may have another value here, with these guys, because they appreciate some things*, but *another value there with those guys, because they appreciate other things*.

*You get value by being the best at what people appreciate*. And different people appreciate different things. Different social groups appreciate different things.

*Such as low-key people appreciate some things so you may have some value here*. Where as bookworms or intellectuals, they appreciate presence or knowledge, so you have different things in that world.

These are some means or thought on how to realistically get social value. And impress people with your words towards them. To feel good.

The easiest way to get social value is to get good looking. Second place is charisma. Which includes teasing but also others concerning your behavior. 

*Get close to people's heart. Try to be their friend. But also try to develop your looks.*


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

islandlight said:


> Maybe for most people. But for me, getting to know someone through writing was better than meeting in a live social situation. (I lived overseas, so online was a necessity.) Having frequent long text chats enabled us to get to know each other quite well before we met.
> 
> I guess it depends on how you relate to people.



Same especially with video calls. 

I've never met anyone from the internet that I hadn't had extensive hours of video calls with, and I've really only had like one bad experience with that and it was more of a misunderstanding than anything else I think.

Usually it's consistently been fine.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Dezir said:


> Plenty of comments arguing against looks being the main factor, I still think that looks matter the most.


Why make threads to ask other people's experiences and opinions when you already have a strong opinion and won't see their perspective as true for them?




> This may be off-putting, offensive or demoralizing to some, but I think it's best to acknowledge the reality, acknowledge what you can and can't improve, and work with what you can improve.


I don't find your opinion off putting, offensive, or demoralizing, but what I do find off putting, demoralizing, and offensive is that you read through others experiences apparently and write them off when they don't fit your world view or preconceived ideas. People are people. Even IF 75% value looks more than anything else, are you really suggesting that all of those people have the same tastes? 



> Only when you can acknowledge the reality you can make the best decisions available. And I'm not saying this as an "I'm right" but rather "don't let emotions get in the way of your reason".


Is it reason if you can't see any other perspective? That sounds more like delusion. 



> And when it comes to personality there's advice that you should improve as best as you can there as well.


How does one improve personality?



> Admittedly, one may say "women don't care about looks as much as men, women care about personality". I don't think this is true.


I agree that looks matter. I've watched an SO shower and really enjoyed that and it wasn't for the cleanliness lol. However, I know I find things attractive that someone else may not. It's reallllly not one size fits all. Do you have the same taste in women as every man around you? I'd suspect not. 




> But generally, you have to go through looks before you can get to personality. And sometimes, if you're really bad looking, not even personality can help you. By contrast, if you're really good looking, your looks can easily carry your personality, you just have to be there.



Looks may matter (despite that being different for different individuals), but carry? You think THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE are actually willing to be with someone (longer than a few months) that they can't have a conversation with, don't find interesting etc because that other person is attractive?


My so has a friend who is 6'4", is active/works out, and from what people say women are attracted to I should find him attractive, but I never have. His personality cemented this.

I know he finds me attractive because when he met me, he looked at my SO and was like "damn man, good job" (as if I wasn't there.), he's told me I'm pretty/attractive and written off my experiences because of that like "yeah, but of course people are nice to you, you're cute." And YET, same dude called me a bitch and rage quit a board game we were playing because I won after he bought it to practice playing against me, did that and still lost. He's told me it's not attractive when women curse (and I do, a bit like a sailor). I don't value his opinion about what is and isn't attractive because why would I? 

However, I know he finds me physically attractive (because he's said so multiple times over years), but in some alternative reality where we'd be together (and that's a very gross idea to me, but for the sake of argument), he'd never be happy because I'm not going to fake lose in strategy games when someone else should get good. I'm not going to modify my speech because someone has the expectation that women shouldn't say things like cluster fuck, or "you're so invested and preoccupied by small details, I'm surprised you don't fuck ants." He finds me physically attractive, but he wants me to be someone I am not.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Looks may matter (despite that being different for different individuals), but carry? You think THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE are actually willing to be with someone (longer than a few months) that they can't have a conversation with, don't find interesting etc because that other person is attractive?


I know its not what you meant, but comments like these make it sound like someone is either physically attractive or has a decent personality. Why does it become one or the other.

Like I say, I'm pretty sure that isn't what you meant.

Yeah there are more than just looks, but for me at least, there is a certain looks threshold to be crossed, before I even consider or look at someones personality in regards to dating.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

I'll run down my mate choosing process. First, I will eliminate the women who are not attractive enough as others have said. For instance, women might have to be a five or above. Out of that, many women will be left. Once the ugly ones are eliminated, it is strictly personality. I'll choose the 5 looks with a 10 personality over a 10 looks with 9 personality.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I know its not what you meant, but comments like these make it sound like someone is either physically attractive or has a decent personality. Why does it become one or the other.
> 
> Like I say, I'm pretty sure that isn't what you meant.
> 
> Yeah there are more than just looks, but for me at least, there is a certain looks threshold to be crossed, before I even consider or look at someones personality in regards to dating.



Look at what it is in response to. 

He said "And sometimes, if you're really bad looking, not even personality can help you. By contrast, if you're really good looking, your looks can easily carry your personality, you just have to be there."


I disagree with the idea that looks can carry a personality, at least longer than a few months for the majority of people. Some people may be fine with a hot body and not a personality, but anyone who wants a partner that they can have a conversation with on any real level isn't going to be cool with that long term. 

I gave an example of someone who finds me very attractive physically, but he could never make me happy, and I'm convinced I'm the last person on earth who could make him happy because despite him being physically attracted to me, I'm never going to change who I am to stroke his ego. That's fine, we'd be a bad fit across the board and frankly I'm really happy I don't have to be in a relationship with him as I'd quickly consider becoming a nun....

I clearly wasn't saying looks and personality cannoy coexist. Context matters. I'm attracted to people I have relationships with, but what I'm attracted to doesn't fit the "tall muscle guy" so often portrayed at "what women want" either.


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> I know its not what you meant, but comments like these make it sound like someone is either physically attractive or has a decent personality. Why does it become one or the other.
> 
> Like I say, I'm pretty sure that isn't what you meant.
> 
> Yeah there are more than just looks, but for me at least, there is a certain looks threshold to be crossed, before I even consider or look at someones personality in regards to dating.


I'm the whole package, that is smart + looks good + has good personality. But I very much struggle dating. It's mostly my height, but it's also my financial situation that gets in the way.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

daleks_exterminate said:


> I disagree with the idea that looks can carry a personality, at least longer than a few months for the majority of people. Some people may be fine with a hot body and not a personality, but anyone who wants a partner that they can have a conversation with on any real level isn't going to be cool with that long term.


This pretty much agrees with what I wrote above. I can also see case where I might drop my standards on looks for an outstanding personality match.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

looks matter, but they are also very very subjective. We all like different things.

and often, not as important as genuine attraction emotion and connection.

this reminds me of when I said something similar on another thread about this topic, and some dude piped up with “you wouldn’t say that about a 5’8” Asian engineer.” He didn’t know what to say when I told him he literally just described my husband. Lol

or when rock of ages was arguing with a bunch of men here and telling them they were lying when they said they didn’t care about boob size.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Why make threads to ask other people's experiences and opinions when you already have a strong opinion and won't see their perspective as true for them?


For debate?



daleks_exterminate said:


> I don't find your opinion off putting, offensive, or demoralizing, but what I do find off putting, demoralizing, and offensive is that you read through others experiences apparently and write them off when they don't fit your world view or preconceived ideas. People are people. Even IF 75% value looks more than anything else, are you really suggesting that all of those people have the same tastes?


Yes, that my opinion, that people care about looks more than personality (let's not say 100% but maybe a fair amount of 90% do). This isn't to say that all people are liars, but that not all people have really considered it.

If I ask you "looks vs personality" you may think of a good looking man/woman vs a slightly less good looking man/woman with a great personality. And if your personality really matches I can totally see how you can compromise on looks. In fact, if you want support for that POV look no further than this Jubilee video:





The guy wasn't that bad looking, but he was just short. A perfect example of good looking vs. slightly less good looking but with a great personality.

Personality part was talking without seeing each other, and she didn't hear their voice before so likely she couldn't tell. First guy was just talking basic random things, you are very beautiful, have you ever been to X? I'll take you there when I see you similing it's going to be the best part, 4. Second guy was do you like this random movie, 2. 3rd guy gave her a choice, a good date would be arcade or bowling? and she engage with him too asking him, 8, way more interactive than the other guys. 4th guy, credit score, I'm surprised he got a 6, probably because credit score was a weird out of the ordinary question, which made things fun. The not bad person made her laugh, 7. With the Boba guy she actually had things in common, and then talked talked about another dinner place that they both liked, and described their experiences, 9.

The lowest looks rated guy, mainly because of his height, was also the highest personality rated guy, mainly because of his things in common. As one of them said "our personalities really matched".

And if your personality really matches I can totally see how you can compromise on looks.

But generally, you have to go through looks before you can get to personality. And sometimes, if you're really bad looking, not even personality can help you. By contrast, if you're really good looking, your looks can easily carry your personality, you just have to be there. 

When you think of "looks vs personality" you probably don't think on the guy on the left with a great personality vs. the guy on the right with a terrible personality.








(The bottom text is not relevant, I just looked for an image with an ugly dude and a hot dude)

Not sure if you're a woman or man, but if you were a woman, would you be willing to date the guy on the left who has a great personality over the guy on the right?

Or if you go to gym and get ripped & have a nice face. Do you believe that women won't pay attention to you over the simple fact that you have a nice face & ripped body? If you go to gym, look great, women hit on you. If you end up looking great, they end up looking interested in you.

You may see this as "imposing my argument" or something, but it's really not, I'm just making a case, you can agree or disagree with it.



daleks_exterminate said:


> Is it reason if you can't see any other perspective? That sounds more like delusion.


I can, but seeing other perspective =/= automatically agreeing with you.



daleks_exterminate said:


> How does one improve personality?


Getting more fun and amusing and engaging, to make people actually want to talk to you.



daleks_exterminate said:


> I agree that looks matter. I've watched an SO shower and really enjoyed that and it wasn't for the cleanliness lol. However, I know I find things attractive that someone else may not. It's reallllly not one size fits all. Do you have the same taste in women as every man around you? I'd suspect not.


I agree that people may have some niche, some men like red hair or curly hair. Some women like more masculine "manly" men while other women like more feminine "e-boy" men like Justin Beiber. But at the end of the day, they are all going to find this attractive:










For some it may be a 10. For others it may be an 8. But who would put this man as a 4?

Or who will put this man over the top picture guy on the left?

So while I agree that there is a variation, it's not like if you take 10 people and ask them to rate 10 strangers from 1-10 in terms of looks they are going to come up with the same numbers. But at the same time I think saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is a great exaggeration, it's overblown.



daleks_exterminate said:


> Looks may matter (despite that being different for different individuals), but carry? You think THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE are actually willing to be with someone (longer than a few months) that they can't have a conversation with, don't find interesting etc because that other person is attractive?


Yes.

I've had the experience of being good looking, then bad looking due to getting overweight, then good looking again. And when I was good looking I had girls approach me, I didn't had to do anything, I just had to be there.

When I was bad looking the situation got more difficult, and it wasn't out of "just be yourself" or "just be confident".

I was just as myself as I was before, as for "just be confident" I could argue that I was as confident as before as initially I had the same expectations as before, so same level of confidence.

But you can equally argue that your confidence is your looks. If you are very good looking, you can easly argue "just be confident", because you are good looking, and are confident in your looks. But try telling someone who is not good looking "just be confident", they can't "just be confident" because they know they are not good looking, they know this, and this is the reality, they can try to fool themselves at best, but won't change their looks, it won't change anything because they fool themselves into "just be confident".

The guys who are 1 and approach women who are 10 and then get called out as "creep" are usually very confident, this is exactly why they do it, out of confidence, imagine the confidence to approach a 10 as a 1.

"Yeah, but have realisitc confidence", realistic confidence is realise you are not that good looking and not doing it in the first place, realistic confidence is what they would do without you telling them "just be confident bro", that's their realistic level of confidence.

Women are not going to find you more attractive simply because you consider yourself more confident if you are terrible looking. Confidence may work if you are yourself a 5 or a 7 (out of 10) but won't do much for someone who is a 1 - 5, it may be even see as creepy, no matter how confident it is.

As for 8 and above, confidence not needed.

I can tell his from my experience when I was very good looking but also very shy, I didn't need to work that much to have girls approach me, I didn't need to work that much to be in a relationship, I just needed to be there. It was only after getting bad looking due to overweight that reality clashed on me and I actually had to work on improving myself, both lookwise as in getting to gym and personalitywise as in getting more fun and amusing and engaging, to make people actually want to talk to you. I literally didn't had this skill before and I didn't need it because girls would approach me anyway, that's how much looks matter.

You're saying that I'm invaldiating your experience (I'm not trying to) but this was my experience....

I had girls asking me out, girls fighting over me, you name it. And I didn't realise that. I was one of the "just be yourself", "just be confident" guys, before I got fat. Then reality hit me like a train.

And then I started losing weight, and came back to the original place, but a little bit more jagged if you will. 

But yeah, women simp over men way much more than men simp for women like Belle Delphine, it's just that women simp over the top 15% of men. Heck, I had girls having no issue "sharing me". And I didn't had to do anything, I didn't have to be smart, I didn't have to be funny, looks carried me. But anyway, I became more interested in serious relatinships rather than easy adventures. As those womens who have no issues "sharing you" are not usually the women you want to take home to your parents.

And an interesting thing, when I had lots of girls at my door, I hardly wanted any girl. So I can totally understand the female experience of having 10 - 20 men hitting on them and not wanting any of them. You can have them whenever you want, it's easy to do, so why bother? better wait until you find someone that you really really like.

*However, you often really really like a person by getting to know that person and discovering that person*. So if you're not willing to go on a first date to discover that person and get to know that person, good luck finding someone you really really like. I found that the hard way. *You got to give people a chance and get to know them if you want to end up in that point where you really really like them*.

I also think that a relationship comes with a lots of difficulties, it's not a fairytale weeding like Disney leads you to believe. You will have incompatibility points, things you don't like about each other, clearly, 100% of the time, you're not a copy-paste of the other person so you will have differneces.

But it's more about accepting those differences and compromising on those differences that makes or breaks a relationships. People who are unwilling to accept the differneces and compromise on things in a relationship will always fight 100% of the time. People who are willing to accept the differences and compromise on the relationship will get along 100% of the time.

Also, the differences can be the most fun things in a relationships if you know how to use them.

I want to do that somethings. You want to do that sometimes. Sometimes you want to do stuff in the middle. So that the needs of both are met.

But you need to 2 people for this to work, you need 2 people accepting the differences and compromising on the relationship for this to work, sometimes letting the other person to do what she/he wants.

You have to accept that the other person is what it is and he/she likely won't change. You can try to "change the other person", to change their nature, but often times this will lead to more arguments than not. It's those couples that out of 7 days a week fight in 5 days that can't accept each other's differneces are difficult and are angry with it, they can never let from themselves accept a compromise and accept the experience of the other person.

Integrate your differences, accept the stuff that the other person won't change, because it's about their personality, the other person's choices.

Accept your differences on things you don't like.

Build, make choices together, to stuff together, in a balanced way, have a relationship of support and reciprocity, a safe space.

And I'm saying this as a good looking guy.....

Why I was treated how I was treated was really eye-opening for me when I stopped being good looking due to getting overweight. I was priviledged and I didn't even know it. I thought my experience was a normal experience but man how priviledged I was.

I can compare this "difference between the looks leagues" experience with Marie Antoinette when she was told the peasants are starving and she non-ironically replied "let them eat cake". A complete lack of awareness about another's experience simply because you have never been there. So it's normal to you.



daleks_exterminate said:


> My so has a friend who is 6'4", is active/works out, and from what people say women are attracted to I should find him attractive, but I never have. His personality cemented this.


Niche preference. But does your 6'4 friend who is active, works out, good looking, have trouble getting into relationships with women?



daleks_exterminate said:


> I know he finds me attractive because when he met me, he looked at my SO and was like "damn man, good job" (as if I wasn't there.), he's told me I'm pretty/attractive and written off my experiences because of that like "yeah, but of course people are nice to you, you're cute." And YET, same dude called me a bitch and rage quit a board game we were playing because I won after he bought it to practice playing against me, did that and still lost. He's told me it's not attractive when women curse (and I do, a bit like a sailor). I don't value his opinion about what is and isn't attractive because why would I?


I'm with you here, I wouldn't be in a relationship with someone with a bad temper or bad character in general.

But there's no shortage of women who are in abusive relationships because "I just simply love him". Plenty of women are willing to overlook personality for looks.



daleks_exterminate said:


> However, I know he finds me physically attractive (because he's said so multiple times over years), but in some alternative reality where we'd be together (and that's a very gross idea to me, but for the sake of argument), he'd never be happy because I'm not going to fake lose in strategy games when someone else should get good. I'm not going to modify my speech because someone has the expectation that women shouldn't say things like cluster fuck, or "you're so invested and preoccupied by small details, I'm surprised you don't fuck ants." He finds me physically attractive, but he wants me to be someone I am not.


Well, that kind of does fit with what I said in the OP.

_"Now, for the girls with 6 and 8, the both pass your minimum threshold attraction level, so you have the potential to see them attractive and "dating potential". From now on, since they passed your minimum threshold requirement, it's a battle between looks & personality. The girl who is an 8 has a huge advantage in looks, but the girl who is a 6 can more than make up for this in personality.

Men would choose women who are less beautiful if they think that their personality is better. Now, if the 6 girl and 8 girl would have equal personalities, obviously he would choose the 8 girl. But if the 8 girl has a crap personality and the 6 girl has a great personality, he would choose the 6 girl with a great personality over the 8 girl with problems. Some men would go for the 8 girl anyway but I think they are a minority."_

In this specific example was about a man but I said that it applies to both genders.

You never said how good looking his face was, but if he was a 10, there's plenty of people who aren't willing to overlook the fact he's an ahole.

So yeah....

I do think personality matters, I just think looks matter more. 

Enjoyable personality; enjoying with each other.

I am attracted to you and I love your personality, that's what's necessary for a relationship.

You can be like "that's the solution, improve your looks!" or "ohh, it's the looks" both attitudes are valid. But the information is the same.

"I just need to improve my looks and I'll be great", "I'll have women who look at me and like me", again you can be boosted by this or demoralized by this, both attitudes are viable.

But when you know that something works, it gives you stronger motivation towards the goal. That's how I know that this can be a motivator.

"If I improve my looks I'll have women who like me" vs "I'll never improve my looks". It can give you hope, it can give you an energy boost, it can make you powerful, while the other is just a disbelief of your or your own damnation, if you can get past that ressistance that I'll never do it and actually get to do it it can be great because you'll know that as long as you do it it will be great.

"Improve your looks and girls will want me, they will be all over me", okay this is an exaggeration, but I think it's better to have an exaggeration belief and get some results than no exaggeration belief and get no results.

*Pretty much....*

I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't find my opinion off putting, offensive, or demoralizing, but for many people this is the "brutal truth" that's exactly all of those things.

And I think there is value in getting the brutal truth. Not "just be yourself", "just be confident", "the right one will come for you", "you just need more game", "you can make it up with more personality" and other comforting lies we tell ourselves.

Yeah, it's mostly genetics. And if you have bad genetics it just sucks. However, there a a few things you can do to improve your, not genetics, but your looks. A 1% differnce may not seem like much, but if you make many 1% differences they stack.

The point is not to get "jaded" or "resentful", the point is to get reality for what it is so you can make the best decisions available.

It's easy to say "be yourself", "be confident", "the right one will come to you" when you are a 10/10 or even 7/10 and have all the men or women you want. It's almost a hypocrisy, but really it's mostly done out of ignorance of other people's experience so lack of awareness as well as virtue signaling. But it doesn't really help. Doesn't help anyone with the problem of not having a girlfriend/boyfriend because they are ugly. It's like saying "thoughts and prayers" when someone has an accident.

*There are plenty of "dating strategies" out there so my little theory here is by far not the only one...*

They can be summed up as: "just be yourself, the one who likes you will like you for you", "just be confident, improve yourself" and "it's mostly about looks and genetics".

The one with the "girls will probably want thrill and hence chase after bad boys" probably comes "just be confident, improve yourself".

For some people, "game" (meaning good attraction techniques) is seen as a detriment because "you're just not being genuine", or manipulation, while the personality "being kind, thoughtful, etc, bringing flowers" is what makes a or break a relationship.

For other people it's the complete opposite, "game" (meaning good attraction techniques) is what is going to give you the most success with women, it's what "makes or breaks a game", on the other hand personality is going to be detrimental to your game, because "girls only like bad boys, matcho men, dangerous men, etc" and only like boys for their "kind, thoughtful, etc, bringing flowers" personalitiy after they've proven themselves with game and being a bad body.

These people believe that only after you've "secured" a girl with your game and bad boy vibes etc, being a matcho man, being dominant, being dangerous, being in the zone, having a little fun, shaking her a bit, that she is actually going to like an appreciate flowers from you (the things that girls say they appreciate from a man), that she is going to like and appreciate being kind and thoughtful for you, otherwise she is just going to ignore it, not see it as relevant, or in the worst case scenarios if you're really bad looking see you as a creep for doing it.

While me, I think both game (meaning good attraction techniques) and personality (meaning being kind, thoughtful, bringing flowers, etc) are going to be an advantage. So no bad boy, match man, dangerous man vibes. Although being fun is important and that's part of the personality, being honest is important and that's part of "game".

But, I think that game is only on the 2nd place, very important, meaning a big bonus, and personality (being kind, thoughtful) is again on the 3rd place, meaning being a good but at the same time being a bonus. The no.1 most important thing in deciding whether a girl finds you attractive or not is your looks. Face & height.

And to a lesser extent but still important body. 

Sure, if your personalities match, that's great. But if your personalities match and you're not that attractive, it's friendzone. You can also be very submissive and causing the friendzone, but if you're very submissive and very good looking at the same time you won't get in the friendzone no matter how submissive you are.

As I said previously, I had the experience of being someone with genetically good looks, then bad looks due to being overweight, then good looks again, and the difference of how you're treated, not only by girls but by society in general, it's almost staggering. I've been in more sides of the quadrons/leagues so I can tell the difference. That's just my anectodal evidence so it may not mean much for you, but just know that when I was in the good looking phase I had girls hitting on me, and I didn't want to get any girlfriend because I already knew I could have all the girls I could get, I was waiting for "the one", bad mistake in my opinion.

Before I hit the gym to restore my good looks, I pretty much took any previous privilege I had for granted, I wasn't even aware of how privileged I was with my good looks until I wasn't. And yes, women care as much about looks as men if not slightly more, some people may get offended by this but I already talked about it in the OP. Looks explain for me why happened what happened when I was genetically good looking then bad looking then good looking again for hitting the gym. 

When I was good looking, girls would approach me, I didn't even had to do much, I just had to be there. I didn't had to be funny, to be smart, to be any of that, only to exist. 

Girls simp way over much over men than men simp over women, it's just that the girls simp over the top 15% of men.

Looks matter, a lot, they are the most important factor in fact, they can make or break a relationship. But this statement isn't a fatalist one, it doesn't say "if you don't have good looks you're gone", it says you can always do a 1% improvement, and if you do a 1% improvement in many areas they stack, so you get better looking.

At the same time, I don't say that personality, or game or if your personality match and are on the same "wave" or common interest don't matter. I say that the better looks you have, the less your personality or game or personality match matters. And that if you have terrible looks at some point your personality or game won't matter at all no matter how you struggle.

Of course I'm making generalization. But it's better to have a general rule of thumb than have nothing at all. So don't take it as set in stone, but also don't take it as not relevant at all. 

As said above "Sure, if your personalities match, that's great. But if your personalities match and you're not that attractive, it's friendzone" that's the main idea of it. Looks give you a better life simply put.

I'm not invalidating your experience. Nor am I trying to start an argument but a discussion. I'm not saying that what you said happened didn't happen. I'm saying there may be an alternative explaination for this.

And yes, personality matters, but looks matter more.

Yes, personality matters, but looks matter more. If you've having fun on the phone isn't that going to count? of course it will. So my point was never that only looks matter, or that at some point personality can't compensate for looks. I kind of explained in the OP how I view the looks-personaltiy dynamic. Unless I see a lot of people (meaning this being the norm, not the exception) who are dating other people that they consider way below their looks level, simply because they have a great personality, I don't think I would change my mind, I'm looking forward to be contradicted but that would mean invalidating my theory which I haven't seen yet. If there's a better alternative so be it. But so far I noticed that 80% of couples are on similar looks level. And in some cases like Trump - Melania I don't think Melania stays with him for his charming persoanlity.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

Dezir said:


> But at the end of the day, they are all going to find this attractive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi, nice to meet you...... Im Daleks and while I honestly feel bad commenting on some example I don't know anything about or who the dude is, and giving a human a number based on knowing nothing about them, I don't find this example physically attractive at all. Not my thing. Maybe he's a nice human, but 4 seems generous.

🤷 maybe higher if he's a super interesting or funny dude idk but looks wise I'm reallllllllly not into this.


I'll respond to the rest in a bit.


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## Mr. Forest (11 mo ago)

Do looks matter in dating? Well of course. Show me a guy whose picked up an ugly chick on the street and I’ll show you a god-damned liar. How important are looks? Well a woman’s looks are always changing. I don’t get your point.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Queen of Cups said:


> or when rock of ages was arguing with a bunch of men here and telling them they were lying when they said they didn’t care about boob size.


It is an occurance where some guys do virtue signal, talk about how they are holier and purer than everyone else in their virtuous life. Then you stick some giant boobed bird in front of them and instead of living up to their self proclaimed virtues, they become the biggest perv out of the bunch.

Not saying I don't trust what men say online, but I would rather watch what they do then decide if I believe them or not.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

[


recycled_lube_oil said:


> It is an occurance where some guys do virtue signal, talk about how they are holier and purer than everyone else in their virtuous life. Then you stick some giant boobed bird in front of them and instead of living up to their self proclaimed virtues, they become the biggest perv out of the bunch.
> 
> Not saying I don't trust what men say online, but I would rather watch what they do then decide if I believe them or not.



I need to find the post, but his argument was “if you date a woman with small tits you’re gay and you’re lying if you say otherwise.” The men in question were saying that that was not a dealbreaker for them and that most boobs are awesome no matter the size.
I’ve had dudes tell me to my face that they prefer women with smaller boobs. Were they lying or nagging? Who knows. Several of them do now have girlfriends/wives with very small chests though. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

I was actually wrong, he called them pedophiles in denial, not gay.
Bless his banned litte heart.

eta: what made that conversation stick in my mind, was how it devolved to if women want to prove they’re not shallow we need to divorce our husbands and marry homeless dudes. This place sometimes


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Queen of Cups said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not quite what I was on about. Sounds more like bar banter.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Queen of Cups said:


> [
> 
> I need to find the post, but his argument was “if you date a woman with small tits you’re gay and you’re lying if you say otherwise.” The men in question were saying that that was not a dealbreaker for them and that most boobs are awesome no matter the size.
> I’ve had dudes tell me to my face that they prefer women with smaller boobs. Were they lying or nagging? Who knows. Several of them do now have girlfriends/wives with very small chests though. 🤷🏼‍♀️


I think @recycled_lube_oil makes an excellent point that if you want to get to the bottom of it, you have to watch what people do, not what they say.

I know this topic is basically "looks matter" but when saying "looks matter" is more about the face & weight and for women height. Yes, boobs matter, but how much they matter? I think guys are not going to care at all of a woman had the biggest breasts in the world if she is terrible looking when it comes to face & the rest of the body. But especially face. At the same time, I don't think guys are going to mind that much if they find a really good looking woman, a really cute woman, but with very small boobs.

There have been cases, but I literally never heard a guy saying "yeah, she looks very good, her face is very cute or very hot, but she has very small boobs, so I have no interest in her". I've seen them complaining about boobs, but hardly affecting their interests in them. It's like boobs matter but are a 2/5 on the scale of imporance. Like, it's a "nice to have" but can do without, and at the same time won't save your face if you're terrible looking.

I think people give "boobs" more credit than its due for due to inertia, when looking at guys' behavior, I haven't seen boobs as the central point of their attraction, rather, they are attracted to the boobs if they are already attracted to the woman in the first place. She could do without boobs, but the boobs are an extra, if you get my meaning.

Speaking of banter, my girlfriend is C cup, I don't know if that is big or small but definetly not flat, I was making a joke about her being "flat" and she actually got offended, turns out she's a lot more sensitive and self-conscious about this than I am.

And I was having a discussion with a friend once about a girl he's just met, he said something like "bro, I feel in love with the person she is, we have the same jokes, laugh at the same jokes, she's like a female version of me, I mean yes, she is good looking, look at her face, but also look at the rest of her, she's flat (she really was flat)".

He said he liked the way the way she behaved, he looked wholly at her, but he didn't fall in love at first. He liked the way she talked, the way she behaved, he liked the jokes she makes, he liked her voice, as he got to discover her more and more. So he was initially impressed, and then he got to discover her more and more, and those things eventually made him fall in love with her and become a simp. So it was gradual, not instant. Although there was that initial care.

So yeah, breast size, nice to have but not that important.

Can't vouch for everyone tho.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Hi, nice to meet you...... Im Daleks and while I honestly feel bad commenting on some example I don't know anything about or who the dude is, and giving a human a number based on knowing nothing about them, I don't find this example physically attractive at all. Not my thing. Maybe he's a nice human, but 4 seems generous.
> 
> 🤷 maybe higher if he's a super interesting or funny dude idk but looks wise I'm reallllllllly not into this.
> 
> I'll respond to the rest in a bit.


I'll wait for your full response. But in the meanwhile, I just want to point out my full personal experience. I'm not saying that this personal experience "makes me right" or something like that, or that it invalidates you and you are wrong and I am right because of this, it doesn't, it's just something I want to share so you can understand where I'm coming from:

Some people may resonate with this, some people may not.

You've probably heart of people saying something like "I was raised to believe that my worth as a human being was determined by how attractive other people found me". I was not, I was raised the opposite. However, I was born good looking. I had 3 phases: good looking, not good looking, good looking, and my experience with that is that looks do matter a lot.

And that there's either no "looks are subjective" or "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" or the variation is very little.

I was born genetically good-looking, then didn't took care of myself and got fat, then hit the gym, so you could argue I've been "all over the place". In my experience, people do treat you better when you are better looking, won't make your life easy or flawless, but as a former ugly dude who hit the gym, I can tell you, there is a huge difference in how people treat me.

When I was good looking, in my first stage, in high school, you could argue that I had the female perspective/experience. Because I had a lot of women hitting on me, so I know what it's like, being hit on by multiple people and being wanted.

I had women hit on me and me not being interested because I knew they would always be there. In fact, I wouldn't even give women a chance, if there was no initial attraction I would not explore it any further as I wasn't interested.

I would not care to get to know them if there was no initial attraction.

So I can understand this POV where men have to "show themselves" or "prove themselves" initially to be a good "catch" for women, to pass that initial "threshold" and be an enjoyable experience from start so that women would have that initial interest in them.

Once, I was pressured by my friends to go see a woman, because I wasn't interested in dating, and they thought I should be dating at that point and that age. So I went, I talked to her, wasn't interested. And then left.

I simply had other interests at that point. Wasn't interested in women/dating. And always had a "steady supply". So it wasn't a big deal, I could always find some if I wanted. I just needed to have that initial attraction. Kind of like a woman has with men hitting on her.

Didn't cross my mind that you could get that attraction by getting to know a person and giving them a chance past that initial point of attraction. That if there was no initial attraction, doesn't mean there will never be, and that you can grow into a person as you get to know her.

Another time, a girl was nice but I wasn't that interested in her.

Same thing happened in another case, she was nice but just wasn't there in term of attraction, the discussion was just blank. Generally, women don't know how to "hit on men" because they don't usually do it. To make themselves pleasant and enjoyable in the discussion, as in, something memorable that you would be attracted to by vitrue of talking alone, instead, it was just blank. They were probably attracted by my looks. And I wasn't interested in dating, and they did nothing to "convince" me.

May sound like a jerk when I spell it out that way, with women being interested in me and me not being interested in dating. But the other way around, with men interested and women not interested in dating, is the norm.

And it's not like I wouldn't want to tell them that I'm not interested. But they would just hit me up and talk, and I would talk, out of courtesy. I could not say "no, I'm not interested" unless they ask me out or do something that is the equivalent of that so I can refuse, otherwise I look like a jerk saying "I'm not interested" without the girl making any proposition.

Probably, they were talking to me, expecting to eventually be asked out by me since that's how it works.

Another time, I had 2 girls who were friends "fighting" over me, and I wasn't interested in either of them, but I also couldn't tell them because again, they didn't ask me out or something so that I would actually have something to refuse. Just talking is simply coutesy and I would never initiate the conversation. Eventually, one asked me out and I refused, she asked if I was interested in the other one, and I said no, so the situation was resolved.

Another time, a girl basically "self-invited" herself somewhere I liked to go and told me I would have a "surprise". I literally didn't know how to avoid that. It would have been very creepy if it was gender-reversed.

And when I did get a girlfriend, I had the feeling she only liked me for my looks in the back of my head, but we got along nicely. But she also got along with other men, so yeah, maybe I was guitly of the same thing "girls who fall for bad boys" are guitly of.

At the end of that relationship I was like, couldn't belive that I had all these other girls that were hitting on me, some of which were good looking, and I didn't give them a chance because I didn't find that initial attraction there.

Even if there was no initial 'spark' or fun conversation, maybe it would have developed in time, if I only gave them a chance.

Maybe, who knows, things would have gone along differently if I would have at least tried and gave them a chance to get to know them.

But instead I choose to go for the one girl who would cheat on me.

Because I liked that one, there was initial attraction there.

It was "what I wanted" sort of, except not really what I wanted.

I got burned but I'm not denying the fact that the initial attraction is important, and this is usually the man's job because he's the one hitting on the woman, he's the one who is supposed to make the move on a woman and be an enjoyable experience from start so that women would have that initial interest in them.

As in, someone they would like to talk to. To make themselves pleasant and enjoyable in the discussion, as in, something memorable that you would be attracted to by vitrue of talking alone, instead, it was just blank. Something to "convince" you to pursue them.
If you make people like talk to you, they are more likely to be interested in you, that is that initial attraction, I think.

A lot of times, I rejected women because they didn't have that initial interest, if they would have, I would have given them a chance and things would have gone another way, that pleasant experience to be with and talk with from moment 0. But at the same time, that's not everything about the relationship, and that's not a guarantee of success in a relationship.

Guess the key question is: "how can I be a pleasant experience for this person?". Which as stated, is not everything, but it does matter, especially when men hit on women, for that initial interest, that 'spark' to be there, as in "look how well we get along and look how great we communicate", "I really enjoy talking to this guy", sort of, instead of being blank and such.

I guess you're more likely to like a person if you have a good time with them from moment 0. A fun experience with them.

Then I got fat, and boy did the situation change.

Not only in the dating world, but people in general. People treat you better when you are good looking. You are more important simply because of that.

I literally did not know how to approach a woman because I never had this problem before. And before, I wouldn't give women much of a chance to get to know them. It was either initial attraction or not.

If I would met someone and there was not an initial attraction, I wouldn't spend much time with them or give them a chance simply because I wasn't interested. So I could say my fat period was a humbling experience in some way, but also made me realise the importance of looks.

So yeah, not going to make your life flawless or easy, but will significantly improve your life.

Strangely enough, I missed the compliments of being called good-looking, and the attention from random people, more than specifically the attention of being hit by girls who want to be in a relationship with you.

I remember one time I overheard one girl saying "heess so beautifulll" and damn that felt good.

When you are better looking you are more important. And I'm not saying that because I want it to be that way. I'm saying that because I experienced it. It's not a value-judement but a reality-judgement or society-judgement if you will.

Won't make your life perfect, but there are many advantages in getting good looking.
So I could say that beauty is not just subjective or in the eye of the beholder. And that is important. And I can understand why some feel in the hot and attractive but abusive man trap. I probably did the same thing.

I don't know what the lesson is here, maybe sometimes having options can make you pretentious? maybe you should look for whether you get along together and click together and give people a chance to get to know them and not look for that initial attraction otherwise you might skip on people that otherwise you may get along very well with? And as a man, maybe you should have a good "intro" because the initial attraction matters.

Saying that "my worth as a human being was determined by how attractive other people found me" may be an over-valuation of looks, I don't know. But in my experience of good looking, not good looking, good looking, I don't think they are completely wrong about looks.

Yes, you are "one accident away from not being good looking" and I learned that the hard way (getting fat), but at the same time there are plenty of perks of being good looking and I did like them, that I didn't realise before I got fat, and yes you want someone to be in it for you, for the person you are, caring that you feel good, wanting the best for you, but at the same time looks do matter, it's good to be liked for your looks.

You are also one accident away from losing your hands, yet at the same time your hands do matter.

This is an anectodal evidence, just my personal experience, not a general case or something.


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## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Yes, looks matter the most when it comes to drawing people in. Keeping them in is where looks start losing its importance and personality enters the game.



Dezir said:


> Getting more fun and amusing and engaging, to make people actually want to talk to you.


How does one do that? Is there some strategy similar to what PUAs do? "Get more fun" sounds a lot like "just be confident".


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

daleks_exterminate said:


> Hi, nice to meet you...... Im Daleks and while I honestly feel bad commenting on some example I don't know anything about or who the dude is, and giving a human a number based on knowing nothing about them, I don't find this example physically attractive at all. Not my thing. Maybe he's a nice human, but 4 seems generous.
> 
> 🤷 maybe higher if he's a super interesting or funny dude idk but looks wise I'm reallllllllly not into this.
> 
> ...


Daleks:









This is going to be like when I said Donnie is the superior Wahlberg and almost broke the Internet isn’t it?


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

eeo said:


> Yes, looks matter the most when it comes to drawing people in. Keeping them in is where looks start losing its importance and personality enters the game.
> 
> How does one do that? Is there some strategy similar to what PUAs do? "Get more fun" sounds a lot like "just be confident".


I don't think there's a recipy or strategy, but you can probably get the difference between a boring conversation and an interesting conversation.

But really, the no.1 thing you should improve is your looks.

I don't think saying that is going to give people depression, I think not saying is the reason some people have depression.

All their life people have been feed lies about their looks, that girls don't care about looks, that people don't care about looks, etc. When we can clearly see the effects on people's own skin.

There was a topic here about someone complaining that he is ugly, what's the general advice he got? "looks are not that important, come on, show me a picture of yourself, I bet you're not even that ugly", so which one is it? if looks don't matter why would "I bet you're not even that ugly" be hopeful?

I've also seen advice in the responses "just don't think about the looks" or "imagine you're good looking and to hell with the rest" or "just be confident". You can imagine you're good looking all you want, although it's hard to fool yourself, but other people are not going to imagine with you and girls aren't going to accept you because you imagine you are good looking.

And for the most part, your confidence is your looks. If you're good looking, it's very easy to feel confident about yourself because well you look good. If not, you have a hard time fooling yourself. It's like a 1/10 guy approaching a 10/10 girl and then getting rejected because he is a 1/10, what's the issue? wasn't he confident? you need a lot of confidence to approach a 10/10 as a 1/10, confidence wasn't the issue here.

"Oh, maybe he should have realistic confidence", realistic confidence is what he has by default, before someone is telling him "just be confident", what he needs to work on is his hopefulness level, not his confidence. Because of the Halo Effect, people are going to get good personality trait to good looking people and bad personality traits to bad looking people.

Do you think he needs to hear more of that or hasn't heard that advice before?

It's much better off knowing what is actually the issue so that you know what you can actually improve.

It's like having a car that doesn't start. You're much better off knowing what the issue with the car is so you can actually fix it. Than telling yourself "this is fine", "I just haven't found the right key yet, maybe on the next key it will start". Even if the issue is like an engine failure that would cost 2000$ to fully fix or you can make small improvements to get her into working conditions and work like at best 30 mph, it's still much better off than not knowing what the issue is with the car and having no idea what to do about it.

I could be wrong, but looking at the responses there, I don't think any comment gave him hope.

Most responses would try to invalidate his experience saying "it's not that bad" when maybe his real life example would be what it is. So what if, assuming by absurd, it is that bad, what do we do about it?

I think the best thing to do about it is to understand that looks matter because even though it will break your confidence at first, since you will look at yourself and find why you are actually unattractive, it will give you confirmation, in the long run it will give you hope, because it will also give you solutions on how to improve what you can improve.

And this time, you'll know they are no BS solutions, because if the diagnosis was no BS likely the solutions aren't also BS. Improvement and self-development, improving what you can improve from the genetic stock you've been given. So yeah, soul-crushing at first, healing afterwards, which I think it's much better and beats white lies made to protect his ego but also not really help him with anything.

I said previously that saying looks matter is sort of like the "brutal truth", it gives you the truth, dreams sell, the truth doesn't. This is why that "I'm ugly" guy's response section was full of "give me a picture, I bet you are not as ugly as you think" guys, I bet OP had heard this 1.000.000 time in his life.

Or maybe girls told him "you're not my type, but I'm sure you will find someone special who will care for you", every girl thinks she is not his type, but another girl will be. She just isn't attracted to him, but others will be, that's what they all think.

As said previously, the purpose of the idea that looks are important is not to become a fatalist, if you think that looks matter = fatalist you got it all wrong. The point of the idea that looks matter is to acknowledge the reality, acknowledge what you can and can't improve, and work with what you can improve.
All those self-development things are what you can improve. And as said previosuly, that a 1% difference may not seem like much, but if you make multiple 1% differences they stack.

And then? then you start improving everything you can improve. Even a 1% difference may not seem much, but if you make multiple 1% differences they add up. Like: parfume, haircut, style, hygene, teeths, etc. 

It's perfectly understandable that most people can't take plastic surgery to improve their looks, but there are multiple things you can improve about your looks that won't cost you 2000$. And the biggest of all without being dead expensive is going to the gym.

You can go to the gym or buy some equipment and workout at home.

There's plenty of things you can work on you probably didn't even think of: posture, beard, breath, skin care, nose hair, clean ears, facial expressions, eyebrow thickness, etc.

As far as I know, there are 4 cases when going to the gym is going to have subpar results:

1. You're below 5.6 feet or 167 cm. Rather than making you look more dominant, the gym is going to make you look like a man-child. Still beats not going to the gym. It's better to go with the 'Fit' body type than with the 'Ripped' body type if you're in this case.

2. When your sketeltal structure prevents you from having an aestethic body. Long body and slope shoulders. Improper hip-waist ratio. Misshapen or warped abs. Again, going to the gym beats not going to the gym. And if you go, try to go for the 'Fit' body type and do not overwork your abs. Having overworked abs with this body type can be a more detriment than crowning achievement.

3. Very skinny body. It's way harder for you than for the average person to put muscles at the gym. However, I have a friend who is in this case and did put up a lot of muscle. With far more effort than the average guy but it worked.

4. A very subpart childish face on top of a very aesthetic lean body. It's like a child in a man's body. A good body complements a good face, not the other way around. A childlike face and gym body is not a good comparison. Gymcelling can be adjsuted with your looks, if you work on improving your face, having the right haircut and stuff like that, it can fix your gymcelling issues on some level. Not permanently, but enough to make it better. Enough to make you face look more manly, maybe grow a beard, whatever works best for you to make your face look more manly and better compliment your gym body.

But all of them can be mitigated with generally going for the 'Fit' body instead of ripped, not overworking your abs, having your face look more masculine with a haircut or a beard to mitigate the effect of a childlike face, so it's still better than not doing it.

There's no point telling people "you're beautiful" when you don't get any girlfriends, it's not helping.

And yes, personality matters, but looks matter more.

Have a great personality and keep the girl engaged. Keep her enjoying the conversation.

As I made the case above with personalities that match, being funny, having things in common, etc.

You can have a great personality and get along together perfectly and be very happy together, you can 'click' really well.

What is personality? Getting along and having a good time with that person.

Personality matters – having a sweet personality.

Being good at communication, talk about what is she into or what you have in common.

I enjoy at a person to have what to talk with her. To mold yourself on things. Ok, don't talk with me about particles accelerator. But to have what to talk about.

It's about having interesting discussions, not being boring, you got to make the discussion interesting. You can make an interesting discusion out of everything.

If you want to approach someone and get them interested in you, you have to be the one dominating the conversation. By that I mean *directing and redirecting the conversation, keeping the conversation alive*. *In a way that the other person also finds enjoyable*. And that's the key, the other person also finds enjoyable. *A way that the other person is also interested in*. 

Find out what they like and talk about that. Until you find out what they like, simply asking them about themselves is enough. While still keeping the discussion interesting with a few jokes now and there.

*It's an interaction, an opportunity to exchange ideas and get to know the other person while the other person is also having fun*. If you don't talk about something they like, clearly they won't like it and won't want to take part in this conversation and you will feel like "carrying a dead weight", because the conversation is already dead, since they have no fun or interest in it.

*It's like approaching someone and then talking about your collection of rocks, with no regards of whether the other person even enjoys or cares about that*. This goes back to feelings, the first part. *You got to be aware and take care of their feelings. Which implies being aware whether they like the conversation*. You got to find something they are interested in, with a few jokes now and there. Decent jokes, as long as the jokes are more funny than they are offensive you should be good.

What else is important? Feelings (yeah more than you know it). *Taking care of feelings*.

*When you approach someone, to take care of their feelings, to have their feelings into account*. To, I don't know how to say this, to interact with the person and be emotionally aware of their feelings. *To take care of how they feel and make them have a good time*. A feeling of protectiveness.

*A feeling of protectiveness cand lead to a reciprocity in return. The "I care about you and I'm taking care of you" type*. This is in direct contrast to all those below-average pick-up lines where you don't even interact with the other person and see them as an object. And people wonder why that doesn't work.

*For women, paternal investment is a big deal*. That's not to say women go around checking "will this be a good husband?" but they have in check whether he is the caring and nurturing type of man. This is why it's useful, if you can have a normal conversation with them. A standard discussion with fun and not anything extra. A normal discussion where you can talk about what you like, what you dislike, fun and stuff like that.

*A type of approach where you talk normally with them, make them enjoy the conversation, by taking about useful subjects they would enjoy*, so that they have fun in the conversation, and try to discover what they are as a person. To see their character, what they are like, what they believe, what they enjoy, what they don't enjoy, stories about them, how they view things, how they view the world, stuff like that. Or even current events, what's the lastest thing that happened in the news, and what do you think of that? you can even talk about childhood or modern fashon or jokes, sharing memes.

*The lastest scandal, history or religion. And share thoughts and opinions on this, who was in the wrong? who did what? why did he do that? etc. Was that good or bad? or even just have a fun laugh at it*, "I can't believe he did that thing, he was like jumping through space with it". And can also talk about emotional stuff like feelings and life, what is right or wrong in the world, how you feel about certain stuff, or consolidate and give them advice on/when how they feel about certain stuff, with empathy and care for them. That it's okay, that stuff like that happens, that here is how it is, that what they should do. Again, with empathy and care for them.

*The type of discussion where you are trying to be close to their heart* rather than close to their "alpha male" ugga bugga stuff. Make them enjoy the conversation and try to have fun yourself while at it and discover them as a person. A conversation is an opportunity to get to know the other person. As opposed to the matcho man pick-up lines type of approach.

Because both men and women want offsprings, consciously or subconsciously. Even those who consciously don't want are designed for that subconsciously (this is in fact, why we find people attractive/unattractive, scientifically speaking, "attractive" is just a signal your brain tells you "good for kids"). For men, female paternal investment is a given, it's not even a question, she has it. For women, male paternal investment is not, so they have to be very careful about this and make a pretty big deal out of this. This is why evolutionary biology says women evolved in this way. Houses are more full of absent fathers than absent mothers so they have to be very careful about this.

*So you start with 3 choices:* be direct, use the pretext of a commonality or use the pretext of asking for help. In the 1st case, it depends a lot on the location, in a library you probably have to talk about books while in a club you can talk about how hot your are or that I have noticed you. In the 2nd case you tell her that you saw her there and talk about that thing you have in common. In the 3rd case, you find a pretext to talk to her such as asking for help, and next time just ask her how is she doing.

*Then you go to basic talk:* weather, arts, entertainment, sports, family, food, work, school, travel, celebrity gossip, hobbies, hometown. It's also okay to have moments of silence and feel comfortable in the silence, even make fun of silence. Additionally, find similar interests, have you tried anything she's interested in? communication is key in any relationship. Things aren't complicated, we overcomplicate them out of fear or desire to make everything perfect. The most important thing in a relationship is communcation, when you have a problem to say it, not to keep it buckled up in yourself.

*Then when you are more familiar with each other and in touch for a bit, you can shift to big talk*, to talk about the deeper concepts of life: money, poverty, justice, fairness, happiness, motivation, desire, knowledge, communication. And as you get to know her and she gets to know you on these issues, you'll both get a better idea of who the other person is. By, you know, just talking about life in general.

*And then you can talk about personal issues,* if you have already talked about the deeper concepts of life in general she already knows you enough to trust whatever is she dealing with, so you can talk about: struggles, failures, fears, doubts, insecurities, regrets, worries. And when you are on the receiving end of these issues, respond with warmth and reassurance. There is a mutual feeling of trust in those scenarios. That is how you emotionally connect with people, understand their struggles and seek to comfort them. And being on their side, not necessarliy always giving advice, but just listening.

*Have deep discussions*. About life: money, how we need money, etc. You can even start a random topic, just like that. Religion, about religion. People, their goal, their purpose, their happiness. What makes someone happy. Most of these discussions involve a bit of sadness and introspection. And also talking with the other person, having a conversation, not just spewing your ideas. You have to like/love someone before you want to connect. But you can also show you're someone worth connecting with. What about love? what is love? what about love for a stranger, or a begger, or a fellow human?

First of all: *Be expressive*. *There is a time to be serious and to joke*. There is this book "The Secrets of Success" by John D. Rockefeller, one of the richest men in USA. He said that the ability to get along well with people can be bought like any merchandise such as sugar and coffe and said that "I will pay more for that ability and for anything else under the sun".

When you learn about emotional intelligence, you shouldn't take it too logically, *you should be aware of how people feel*. Be expressive, your state should depend on the enviroment you are in. *Usually, you want to adopt the feel of the people around you*. For example, *at a party: high vibes, fun, etc*. Don't think that you seem like a robot in situations as such, that your expression is different from the enviroment and the vibe of the group, that you don't react well with the group. *Without working hard for it. Without you struggling, meaning you doing it manually*.

Another example: *At dinner with the employees, be more restricted, more cautious, more formal*, because that's how you should be because that's how everyone else is there. Mind game, mind theory. Think what they think. Impress people and conduct appropriately. *This doesn't mean that you shouldn't start to get your friends in a good vibe if you are at a party and everyone is "dead"*. But on the other side, if the enviroment is more formal, even if there is a person or 2 which whom you can be more open, more chill, *you don't have to cross the limits, because in general, you should scan the atmosphere*, scan the room, *and adapt from the room, be like the rest of the people*.

*See how people are and be like them. If everybody laughs because someone in the group said something, I suppose you should do the same thing*. If you think it's funny, laugh, if not, *smile*, out of common sense. You can't stay there with a sad face not saying a sound. It would be weird.

Are these things, things that we should do automatically? as in, it's weird if you try to do them? *most of the time I think we do it manually*. You are at a party, you are not in the mood, but say to yourself "come on, let's not stay here sad". It also depends on the people you are talking to, how real are them, not fakes. You kind of learn how to pretend, you have to adapt a bit to the enviroment.

With the attitude, to *be there where the world is. And afterwards, maybe the vibe really comes to you, maybe a manual process becomes an automatic one if you give it a try*. Adapt to the group, be on the theme, when it's the time to laugh, laugh, whne it's the time to be sad, be sad.

But there's a difference between doing it automatically, and doing it manually as described above. *We usually do it automatically, do you want to do it manually? you can give the manual process a try and eventually will become automatic*. It also depends on the subject, if you talk with someone about a subject that you like, *clearly that will be you, natural, automatic*, without hiding, without pretending.

It's *kind of the same thing, but done manually, to have the same vibe with the world, not to say sad in a corner*. Let's be honest, to be natural today, meaning, to behave exactly how you feel, you will be on the news the next day. *We are always more or less ourselves*, or different aspects of ourselves, we behave differently with every person. Like, you are in a group, the whole group laughs, and afterwards you laugh too, except you didn't find it funny. You behaved automatically there, and it's to be appreciated.

But *this is why this thing is explained, because it's good to also do it manually, to integrate with people*. To not have moments like that. You got to learn to be fake. Non-ironically perfectly described. Althought it's best to laugh when you truly feel the need. Not like that, but nah. Laugh, out of common sense. If everybody laughs and you are like "dude, what the heck are these people talking about?" it gives you a bad vibe, doesn't make you likeable, therefore, be fake. But at the same time, it sucks to laugh like an idiot when you pretend that you know what it's talking about, especially if it's an inside joke.

*Now, for the talking.*

Know how to notice people and go talk to them. Just talk, talk about anything. Usually, talk about what they are interested in.

*Step one:* Ask them about themselves, how are they doing, *where they are from, what do they do for fun*, what have they done recently, *where have they been recently* - this is a big one, and pretty much *anything you can think about them to uncover them up.* It's like your goal is to discover them and know more about them. Like you're Sherlock Holmes. Avoid boring stuff like job and education, but in absence of everything else. That can work out too.

*Afterwards, step two: talk about what they are interested in or what you have in common*. When you *found out what they like, what they are passionate about, what recent experineces they have*, and *you see that they enjoy talking about these or they enjoy those experiences*, ask them about them. You don't have to relate to them. *You really don't have to relate to them. You just have to be curious*. Curious about their experiences and about themselves. People appreciate it when you are curious about their experiences and about themselves and love to talk about those things, and *love to have someone listening to those things. That way, you can be interesting by being interested*. Without being interesting yourself. Because at the end of the day, *we don't care whether someone is interesting, we only care how they make us feel*, so *be interested in them and their experiences and you will make them feel great*.

*Step 3 optional:* basic subjects *like: venerating the glorious leader Kim Jong-Un*, music, movies, school, work, friends, opinion on current events, footbal, sports, politics, even religion, *you just got to start the field small not "what do you think of our lord and savior Jesus?" but "I've never been to a religious organization or place before, do you think there is an afterlife? or reincarnation?"* and *not insert your own opinion before their inset them*. Same with politics, *start the field small*, not "Trump sucks!" but* "what do you think about the current state of affairs? have you seen what that senator Tom has done? it's wild" and expand the conversation from there*. What is usually considered small talk. Just *ask them a question about that "do you like football?", or "do you like ping-pong?" or "have you ever been to karting? me? never, but I'd love too, it's so funny to see all those little cars yet having such a high speed"* or "what do you think about the recent events happening in UK?" or "what do you think about what that star Demi Lovato was doing?" or "what kind of music do you like?" and you can go on from there.

*You can find plenty of subjects if you think about them, fashon, and then ask "what do you think about that guy's hood over there?"* and then more often than not, the discussion will diverge into fashon, because *you asked a question about a fashon-related thing, and within the enviroment*. It's *a bit weird to ask "what do you think about fashon?" but when you do it like that, and start with a concrete example, possibility within the enviroment*, circumstantial, it makes it way more likely that the discussion will go in that direction. *This is where you can check them and radar them, are they interested in that discussion, yes or no? if yes, keep going, keep talking about it.* If not, and *they give you the dry "aha" or "ok", change the subject to a more interesting to their liking one*. I mean, it's your choice, but if you continue talking about something they don't like talking about, it's only a matter of time before they leave the conversation and won't improve your reputation.

*Or connection with them for that matter*. *You want to have fun too, so find a middle ground, find something that both you like to talk about, and they like to talk about*. By *swiping through various subjects until you find one that is a match*. This is why *asking them about themselves is a blessing*. When you ask them about themselves, *they will tell you about themselves, and then you can figure out right away what subjects they like and they don't*. All of this *helps a lot in making you more likeable and making people having a greater time having a conversation with you*, which in turn makes you more appreciated. *We all like to have conversations with people that we like*. But *we like those people mainly because we like the conversations with them*. And if you are like "well, I can't, I'm not interested in anything, I won't find anything interesting for me, let alone the other person". *Well, think. Think about something random and see if you can find a way to get him there to that conversation*. As I gave the example above with fashon. You can also do it for wrestling, the enviroment or whatever.

And then *see if you can find a way to bring that other person to that page/subject by using the enviroment* (pun not intended). And then, *after you brought them to that subject, see if they like the conversation or not*. If your social clue tell you that they don't like the conversation, *the dry "aha" or "ok"* then *switch to another subject and so on until you can find a subject you both like and it's a match, like a Tinder match*. But really, *the easiest way to go about this is*, as I said, *ask them about themselves*, talk about themselves "hi, I'm Joe!", "I saw you from across over there and I haven't seen you before", or whatever excuse you can think of to go talk to him, "you look like someone I knew" *as ridicuous as it sounds it works*, to *give sort of a reason of why you're talking to them* if you're like 2 total strangers that never crossed paths with one another before, or weren't strangers but broght together by a common friend.

*If that's the case, you can even use the common friend as a conversation initiatior* "you know Bob?", "how do you like this party?", and *then just go into seeking mode*: "what do you do?", "where are you from?", "how do you like it here?", *get them to talk about themselves, and from there, the rest is history*. If you *get stuck at a certain time or don't know what to say, apply the optional step 3 and find a relevant subject within the enviroment that you can later use to talk about a subject in general*. You can do this with *literally any subject you can think of*, "oh, look at that TV, it looks like a plasma?!, or looks like a Playstation desktop, by the way do you play video games?", "what kind of games?", "I personally enjoy these kind of games, and are you good at those games?", "wow, rank 7, nice, must have taken you a long time to get there".

*And by the way, your message doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to come from you*. *You can be all over the place and still do a great job because it came from you*. If you *stop and think about the "perfect" answer you'll never find anything to say* because there's no such thing as the perfect answer. So *just do or say the first thing that comes to mind first, the insta-thing that comes to mind first*, and don't think too much about it. In fact, *don't think at all, it should be natural, and come from yourself, and not filtered that much*. In fact, the reason *you may find nothing to say it's because you may filter yourself too much* because everything you say has to be "perfect", *it doesn't it just has to come from you*. And there's no such thing as the "perfect said thing", as I said, *you can be all over the place with your speech and your explainiations and still do great, because it came from you*. In fact, look at this text of mine, probably there are a million ways to write this better, to be more concise and other qualities, more clean, etc , it doesn't mean I wrote this bad right now, does it? in fact, *there is a certain soul to it if it comes from yourself*. A soul that you can't make-up just by saying what you were previously reading from a textbook, a thing that comes from yourself when you say something, when you speak, when you speak your mind.

So,* don't wait for the perfect word, it doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be good enough, it just has to come from you*, and it will be great. And *if you have nothing to say, embrace the silence for a while*, there's nothing wrong with silence. In fact, if not all then most conversations have a lot of silence in general. *People are not these robots that talk all the time non-stop, they only talk when they feel that they have something to say*, and that "feel they have something to say" of different people may either overlap or not be present for both at a certain time, and there's nothing wrong with that. So if you have silence for a while, *don't try to cover it up, enjoy the silence for a while, a few seconds*, maybe 5 or 10, sometimes 20, 30, and then you can say something, make a reference or something. *You can even make fun of the silence itself*.

*Is this work? not really, it's really really easy once you get the mechanism*. How come other people don't do that? *well, they do, the people who are really good communicators do that*. But they *either do it without thinking or do something similar*. That's why, *for some people, it's not only you but it's a lot of people that enjoy talking to them*. Sure, *you can have a friend where you already have established subjects in common so you know right away without any sort of "instructions" what to talk about*, because you *have these passions or subjects in common and you know it*. But, *if you found a person that when you met that person you didn't know what to say, and 10 minutes later you are talking about the wildest things*, and the discussion is great, *chances are the other person did that to you*, what I described above, or something similar.

*Bonus, what if they want to leave?* If they try to leave you can always look in their general direction and say "well, Jesus he knows me, and he knows I'm right", no seriously, if someone leaves, e*ither says they want to leave, implies they want to leave, or seem generally boring in the conversation*, as in replying uninterested with "aha", "ok", *just let them leave*, you save your reputation far more by letting them leave because they did not enjoy the experience than for constantly being a pain for them and forcing your speech on them, and *they just have to sit there and take it because they just want to be nice and don't want to be rude and tell it in your face like it is*, that they are not interested anymore, *so notice it, and just let it go*. Generally, you can never 100% read these things, but generally, if you're unsure, keep going with the converastion. Up to the point where you are actually fully confident that they really want to leave or they actually get up and leave, either invoking an excuse or genuinely leaving, you get experience points, you get a reality-check that will help you later in further conversation, so don't leave or assume they want to leave until you are 100% convinced. And even then, if you're 100% convinced too many times, better give it a shot and try to see what is happening if you're 100% convinced a person doesn't want to talk to you yet you still talk to them, was that 100% convincing only in your head or was it accurate? the point is to gain a reality-check from this and see the situation for what it really is, the point is to get XP points. It's like Skyrim, the more you practice one-handed the better at one-handed you get, *the more you practice speech and observing the feelings of the other person, the better* at speech and observing the feelings of the other person *you get*. And then you level up, and invest points in the vampire perk because you want to be immortal.

Well, that's it. I hope it helps and yeah it's not in a very neat format. It may seem like a lot of info but it's really really easy to understand. The text is long because I wanted to be more in-depth but the principle is short & easy. Because the principles behind it are easy, I just went the extra step to be as in-depth as possible. This is it.

These are some ways to improve your personality if you will. But I still believe looks is king.

If you look good, people are attracted to you, it's as simple as that.

If you look good, you can have moments where they look at you even though you are with someone else.


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## eeo (Aug 25, 2020)

Dezir said:


> *Step 3 optional:* basic subjects *like: venerating the glorious leader Kim Jong-Un*


Right. I see now what I've been doing wrong all my life.

But, seriously, thanks for making the effort, it was an interesting and useful read.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Looks matter, sure. It has some influence.

But the most important thing to get dates within a capitalist society is money. It's very difficult to do leisurely activities like dating or even take on serious commitments like the possibility of marriage/having kids when you lack the means of social mobility.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Dezir said:


> *Step 3 optional:* basic subjects *like: venerating the glorious leader Kim Jong-Un*


This seemed to have worked for Dennis Rodman.


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## Dezir (Nov 25, 2013)

Hexigoon said:


> Looks matter, sure. It has some influence.
> 
> But the most important thing to get dates within a capitalist society is money. It's very difficult to do leisurely activities like dating or even take on serious commitments like the possibility of marriage/having kids when you lack the means of social mobility.


*I think status is overrated*. *Is money important? sure. Is money that important? no*. You should have enough money to be a middle class guy, from there, looks and personality will do most of the work. I think the idea that women are attracted to status was perfectly valid 50 and 100 years ago when women didn't have the same rights as men. If you legally can't hold a job and make as many money as a man, *of course you're going to be attracted to status, for the sake of money*. But in a society where everyone is equal, money becomes less and less important when it comes to attracting a partner.

*Are you a millionare? if yes, then you are an exception*. Yes, women will be attracted to you being a millionaire, but that's only true for top 5%-1% of guys. Most of us aren't Leonardo Dicaprio. I don't think that today women in their 20s up to 30s look at the status of a man when considering whether they want to go out with him. Yes, there are gold diggers. Absolutely, clearly true, 100%. However, those are rare, the minority not the majority of women. And as any simp who donated 1000$ to Belle Delphine will tell you, *if you lead with money you won't get anywhere*. *You will only be needed and wanted for your money, what you can provide, not for who you are, they won't love you they will love your money*. So using money? in my opinion, sounds good, doesn't work.

Ignore politics. Do you think melania is with him for his money? or his looks and personality? I'm going to take a bet that *she doesn't actually love him, and is only in it for the money*.









And if you're a millionaire and always have the money, sure that works for you. But if you're the middle class like most of us are. *Being a provider will only work short-term and you will be left as soon as you run out of money*.

*Heck, in my experience, I've seen the opposite - that if a woman is willing to financially invest in you, that woman really wants you and to can easily take it as a sign of true love*. In 2 of my relationships, the woman wanted to split the bill on the first date, whether it was watching a movie, or buying ice cream. And in both of these cases the relationship worked flawlessly. *Wanting to split the bill is a clear sign she is interested*.

Again, I'm not saying be a hobo. Being a hobo is a clear turn off. I'm saying be at least middle class and from then on you should be good.

In all of my interactions with women, what I found to be the biggest indicator of whether a girl is genuinely interested in me, is whether she is or is not financially invested.

Everytime a woman has put money down and has been open to paying for things, then the relationship would work out. Everytime the opposite happened, and she expected myself to pay for things, things would fizzle out rapidly, she would end up getting flacky with text, ghosting or something like that. *If a girl finds you attractive, and puts money on the table, you know she is genuinely interested*. When this level of "Chad treatment" happens it's unbelieveable just how easy things are, it's literally like having grapes fed to you, there are no games, and she will either make it very clear or obvious that she wants you 2 to meet up, or she will even set up something herself and put in all of the work for you.

So, if you're in a position where you're paying disproportionally more than what your partner is, then she does not value you. You're only there as a provider.

Since we are on a looks vs personality topic and I talked about the minimum looks threshold, I want to address another thing, not related to you: *Should you give up on dating if you're too ugly?*

There are so many ranges of opinion here, from the most optimistic: "Any man can go from 1 to a 10, men just need to climb the ladder by improving on themselves" or "if you are unlucky enough to be born ugly, then you'll just need to find another way to attract" (possibly money, that was talked about here why is bad).

At the opposite end of the spectrum you have opinions like: "it's fully over if you're below 5/10" or "if you're not born above 7 you may as well give up forever". *I wouldn't go as far as either of these sides of the extremes*.

But if I had to choose, I'd position myself slightly (60%) closer to the latter spectrum than the former. This is the point that I believe indicates realism.

*Counter-arguments to the over-optimisitc side:*

What they preach is clearly encouraging, it pushes men to work and to maximize their potential. However, sometimes that potential gets conflated with delusion, getting some guys to get completely unrealistic expectations of what is possible for them.

Sure, I'm all for hard work, but having unrealisitc goals isn't helping anyone. You will be delusional at first, then disheartened, then give up.

"Just reach the top 20% in looks to be succesful", however, every man has a celling of how high he can climb the look scale, of how much you can improve your looks. And for a lot of men, even if they take their absolute best effort to improve their looks, they may still fall short of the absolute top 20% assuming they don't have the original genetics to back them up.

Will this be an improvement? clearly. It will turn you into a Chad? not necessarily, it depends on the person.

I think on average you can improve 2-3 by losing weight or getting jacked meaning doing everything you can to improve your face. Sometimes you may get from a 3 to an 8 but these are rare cases.

Once you reach a certain level of self-improvement in terms of looks (losing weight & better face) *it then becomes mostly about maintaining rather than climbing *that happens in the beginning.

When it comes to looks, every man has a celling of what they could reach. And that's not to say you shouldn't strive towards your ceiling, *I'm all for hard work*, but it's still important to recognise you have one and *understand you have limits*.

Your initial starting point significantly determines how high your celling will be. A man who is a 6/10 at age 18 has a significantly higher chance of reaching an 8/10 at age 25 compared to a guy that starts off as a 3/10 at age 18.

Be realistic with your current chances. Think about what your potential could be after improving. And finally, reach a grounded conclusion of what the best course of action for your dating life would be in future.

*With that out of the way, what about personality? Ok, so, more on personality:*

In my opinion: *don't be lout (beat-em-up guy), tough guy, etc.*
No lout, tough guy, etc. *Sweet and nice. Attract with the softness of the heart*.

*The most important thing is that people feel good with one another.

Don't be bitter and angry for some reason*. Remember: *the kind people who hug each other at the start of the party*, they have *decency*, *common sense*, want an *easy atmosphere*, and to *ameliorate the atmosphere*, let the atmosphere flow with joyous calm nice and happiness, there's no bitterness here, only nice and good.

When you're at work: It's important that they see that you have worked, to stand up.

Women can be like: *You hate a guy, 2 hours later you are with him, 2 hours later you hate him again*. Tastes change. Meaning the opinion about him. The opinions change in 2 hours. They hate him afterwards they don't hate him. *In this case taste = opinion about him*. It's not like a bottle of Coca-Cola or Pepsi where the taste remains the same, but they changed based on their opinion about him. *If he's a good guy or not*, if he changes or not, the opinion about him = the taste.

"Yeah, the taste can chage, in 2 hours you have another opinion about him, ok, the initial opinion was still the good one, the correct one".

(*So yes, you can be a nice guy, with good looks and decency, and a good soul, and being close to her heart, and get "all the girls"*. Women appreciate a guy with a good soul and nurturing qualities. *Someone who pays attention to her and talks to her*.

No need to be a ruffian, or tough guy, or stereotypical 'alpha male' except 'alpha male' exclusively in terms of looks if you will, a Chad.

And someone who is close to her. *Someone who helps her in her time of need*, shows care. *A simp in terms of care if you will*. *Not a financial simp, but a simp in terms of care*. Helping her when she is in need with something.

As long as you aren't overencumbered yourself, meaning if you have too many things at once, don't help, *if you have to lose something in your life by doing it don't do it*. But if you don't (you have nothing to lose) then go ahead and help when she is in need with something, *"sure, I'll help you"*, point is to not sacrifice yourself, help her but not to the point of sacrificing yourself, because then you may get used. There's a slim line between helping to be appreciated and helping to get used. *If you don't lose anything in your life by doing it then help her*. Helping her when she is in need with something will be greatly appreciated by good people. One of the greatest ways to attract is to help her fullfill and unfulfilled need she didn't know she had in an unexpected way.

That "Taylor Swift" stuff I've been talking about which is the opposite of a stereotypical 'alpha male' the "I want to make sure you have a good time" kind of thing. *"I want to make sure that you're feeling comfortable and have a good time"*, a protective feeling. With decency too. And humility, modesty. And someone who can get into deep into discussions with her. Someone with a good soul, a good heart, depth, and care, helpful, polite, etc. I think I said it once *"To be a bit of polite and helpful. To make people appreciate you"*, it applies to people in general, but also in your relationship with women)

*Another thing you can do to improve your personality:* sarcasm, making funs of, mischievousness (jokingly).

*It's the looks! If I have the looks, she will want me!*

Getting along: having a fun time together, laughing together.

*You can get into a relationship with a woman by being close to her heart*. This may sound very naive, like a Taylor Swift song, but I think it's true.

*You can be in an interview expressing how looks matter and how this may be controversial*. Sure, a lot of people may get offended by this, but at the same time, those same people who get offended judge people based on looks, they pick who they want to date or not based on looks, including women, so you may have people being offeded by this, but those people will not practice what they preach, look at what people do not what people say, looks are important, we generally want to date someone on the same looks level as us.

*Money don't work, the provider clause:* If you lead with gold not going to make much. *Rabbits can have one person who feeds then and one person they like.*

I had a revelation moment once: *"I need to go to the gym and all my problems will be fixed"* and they were.

*That was the revelation moment with I need to go to gym*. I was with a friend, standing next to a fence and talking to him. And we were talking about various stuff, and from that discussion I realised that "man, all I need is to go to the gym and my life would be great" and it was, because people are indeed attracted to looks. I already told my story of how I used to be good looking and having a lot of women, then overweight, then going to the gym and good looking again. It makes a ton of a difference, it's really a privilege. People will be more open and responsive to you. "I just need to go to the gym and my life will be great", "if only I would go to the gym, everything would work out", "If I just go to the gym, my life would be great from now on".

*And then there is this little theory I have about looks here in OP, with the minimum looks threshold.

In terms of personality, when talking to a girl:*
1. We had lots of fun
2. Don't let the trail get cold

If she is attracted to you, she is going to insist on talking to you.

So yeah, focus on having lots of fun when talking to her and don't let the trail get cold. *Simply having fun moments when talking to her*.

Be polite and helpful. Offer to help people with stuff. They would appreciate it.

And when talking to her have a fun discussion with her, when talking to her simply focus on having fun with her. (how to have fun with her? chill, degaged, will come back later)

*If you have good looks, all of that would be great*. And she would have an interest in you. (that's why she talks with you right there, because she has an interest in you, because you look great)

You have to be serious if you want to get what you want. And actively work for it on all fronts. *You have to be serious, there's work there, but it's worth it*.

*Whatever you do, don't do stuff to break her heart:* like talking to other girls about how you like them more or about how you want to be with another girl, stuff that suck for her, might make her lose interest exactly because of that.

One guy was talking to a friend "hey future godfather" and she got offended by that, she was interested in him but then he got to talk with a good friend about being a godfather and she assumed he already has a girlfriend and they are close to being engaged, so that was weird. Wasn't the case. He told me afterwards "we were talking about being a godfather, of etc, and it really sucks for her". *Because well, if that happens she might lose hope*.

*What can you do? Be like a pillar*. Meaning? keep talking to her, but not desperate look into your eyes, just fun to be around. Attract from a distance.

*Focus on being fun to be around and that's it. And improve your looks*.

Realistically, that's the best bet you have so far, being like a pillar and working on improving your looks.

*Also, very important: don't be stingy with money, don't hold on to money that dearly.*

This may be self-contradictory, becasue I've just talked previously about not leading with money, but hear me out. Not leading with money doesn't mean that you have to be a ruffian.

*Simply put: the bill? no big deal*.

If you go to a party, and they offer to split the bill, whatever method use to split the bill is the best, as long as the bill is split and everyone considers it the best. Because you may get benefits from this. Not on the moment, but in general, not looking at money. Like splitting food and drinks equally regardless of individual picks.

You may see that nobody says anything and take that as disagreement, but for you it may not be a big deal as in either method you will get an equal amount.

*Very underrated but very useful: Jokes & Rock Papper Scissors.*

The jokes that you may say at a party, when talking: you can have 2 and being dry. What did the rooster say when he crossed the street?
Learn jokes. Hide / Raining.
It can all start from a disscusion about gay rights, and end up with a whole talk about jokes.

A gay goes to do the doctor, prostate control, the doctor puts a finger in, enters a little, and he says "oh oh, I found something", the gay says "yes, yes, yes", the doctor pulls out and it's a rose, the gay man says "for you, mister doctor".
A man goes at his friend's home, "I fked up with my wife badly", "come on man, how hard can you fk up? yesterday, I was with my wife walking in the park and there was a woman selling baloons and I told her 'what a nice baloons you have'", "that's a mistake? I wanted to tell her yesterday 'give me the milk from the fridge; and I told her ;fking hell you ruined my youth'".
A Russian was shaving his beard, had a handover, he was being very careful because his head would hurt him, his hands were shaking and he hears from the other room "Sergey", "aham, so Sergay".
A patient goes to the doctor and thinks to himself "Aeris? no, Taurus? no" and then opens the door "mister doctor", "Cancer mister".

And learn Rock Papper Scissors. People tend to repeat the same form if it was winning or change it if it was losing. We tend to think that if something worked it will work again.

If in Round 1 the opponent beats you with Paper, in Round 2 use Scissors (if he beats you; what wasn't used)
If in Round 1 the opponent is beaten by you with Scissors, in Round 2 use Paper (if you beat him; what he just used)
Try to think only 1 step ahead. Not 2 steps ahead.

People tend to think 2 steps ahead, making your 1 step ahead win over their 2 steps ahead. If it's too simple to win, it will usually win. "He will think that I will, so he will", nope, that's 2 steps ahead, just do that think the "he will think that I will" and it may work, that's 1 step ahead.


Men tend to use rock more often.
Women tend to use paper more often.
If people used something 2 times in a row, they're unlikely to use the same thing 3 times in a row.

*High vibes and laugh attitude. And having what to say/ask. Something they are interested about, be interested in them. Enthusiasm and interest in them*.
Talking to them is easy as long as you have a good attitude and good-minded vibes.
It's really chill and easy if you think about it, it gives you motivation.
*Show her some love and appreciation, but non-relationship*.
*While getting good looks*.

*As a woman, you have to be*: delicate, sensitive and feminine. You are seen different, you are not allowed to make mistakes. If you do what a man does you are looked at differently. -> A woman is meant to be delicate, like a flower, like a trinket, no drink, no smoke, no etc.

*As a man, you have to*: have decency in you, know when to intervene and when not, and have that splash of masculinity and imposing but without being mobbish or superior. -> A man is not meant to be like a brute, you can actually be sensitive, some women like Loki more than Thor and for real.

Like without being vulgar or acting like a quote unquote "peasant", ignorant, rude and generally unsophisticated. (Like the average worker whistling after women) And I think that's a balance many men don't get, because, and without trying to drag it into politics, *we have a lot of toxic masculinity out there*. (aggressive masculinity, not tough, aggressive) Sure, women are at fault for this too, because there are women who validate and appreciate those cad people (bad mannered, bad talking and aggressive), *they wouldn't have engaged in those behaviors if it wouldn't have led to some form of social success*, but the fact remains that they still do it and it's a form of toxic masculinity.

*Know when to intervene and when not, as in know when to stand up for others or yourself and when to not. To have the ability to stand up and end a conflict or fight back if it rises*, like Dean Sampson, an imposing but imposing for defusal, not imposing for domination. To intervene when a wrong is done. *To stand up for justice. To be tough, not aggressive. To not cause any conflict or bad things, to have harmony and understand with others and good vibes and general respect, but to be able to stand up for it and to that if or when that happens*. To be that protection, that's the difference between a person who knows when to intervene and the cad people talked above. Of course, you don't have to be all that, you can have that and sensitivity and joy for fun in childish stuff and depth as in the ability to speak from the heart and talk about your feelings or what is wrong with the world, what you don't like in the world and is wrong with it, concepts like money and poverty, and knowledge. -> Like if you would see a guy beating a wounded animal, would you get mad and try to intervene to save the animal? or if someone is shouting at someone on the table and starts to get physically agressive, would you stand up to them, block their palm and try to defuse the situation? being tough but also in a language to calm them out? -> To be strong yet kind and able to stand up for yourself and others, to be able to stand up for and seek to deliver justice -> Like strong for justice.

To be able to and try to defusal a situation through diplomatic means and power. But power of intimation, like "let's get along and try to see how we fix this" (shall we? because I also have strength) rather than power as in actually jumping to a fight and being the first to instigate. With people. Because your goal is to cool off the conflict not make it worse. -> Strong and kind, with a moral fiber.

Good men use their power for kindness not for abuse or dominance.

*AND LASTLY, A VERY INTERESTING TALK I HAD WITH AN OLD WOMAN ON A PLANE:*

Boomer advice if you will. She was 70 something and said she is still in love with her husband, so we had an interesting discussion about his. Here is what I remember from this boomer advice:

"I couldn't stick to another boy, my thought was at him", "if you love someone you pass over everything".

In our youth, he showed me a picture once to make me jealous "look I have another girlfriend now", but he didn't have. He just said that to make me jealous. Many people told me to break up with him, that he's a ruffian, that he's no good for me, I didn't listen to them.

"Love requires seriosity and sacrifice. This wasn't the case with another friend I had and her boyfriend. They broke up as soon as their parents started having something against one another".

"The person you like, that person draws you towards him".

"At some point, we moved together without anyone knowing".

"In my friend's case, it wasn't something serious, it wasn't something welding, it wasn't a real live".

"What job did my boyfriend had with my mother and my father? they said about him that he's a vagabond, a drunkards, and I don't know what. I was talking back both to mother and father."

"And we lasted 52 years, we lived good with each other for 52 years".

"The essential difference between me and my friend was that we loved each other very much, we cared very much one to another, and I think that my husband also did the same otherwise the relationship would break apart"

"My husband would come and visit a friend of his who lived in my village for days, only so he can meet with me without my parents knowing".

"A guy was talking to me once, when we had broken up, he went and punched that guy"

"When we had broken up, I dated a few guys, but I didn't like them, I was like I don't like him, this one doesn't stick to me, he isn't like him, who is my husband now".

"Once he tried to make me jealous with another woman, all I had to do was to go there and start talking to him, when he was talking to her, no fights, no arguments, just regular talk of how are you doing, he simply left with me and left that girl alone there"

"Yes, he was lying, a lot, that he took this thing, that he listens to this music, but he had a good soul".

"And he was never strict with me. Many men were strict but not him. My job required me to travel a lot, not once he told me that you're not allowed to go there or with that one, if he was a more strict man he wouldn't have left me, either being jealous or generally mad. He never beat me or talked down on me. He was never aggressive towards me in his life. I always did what I wanted, I had freedom, there were no fights between us. Except because of my idiot relatives who wanted to make us fight each other, like my parents."

"My brother would actually tell him all what my parents told about him when he was coming to visit me, my brother liked him".

"We loved each other, our thoughts were one to another, even if we were to marry other people, we wouldn't have been attached like that".

"You can see a couple where is love that they keep it between themselves, there exists love, they see out of their own house, their own jobs".

"In my friends case, where they broke up as soon as their parents started fighting, that wasn't real love, they liked each other more physically, but soul-like I don't think so".

"Physical attraction fades with time, especially after children come. Beauty is temporary, but the beauty of the soul, that will keep you the whole life".

"When we were dating, I always thought my husband was the most beautful, the most styled, the most well-manered, it seemed to me like he had all the qualiteis in the world"

"He had insecurities, that he doesn't speak well, that he has a lisp, that he is quiet. I didn't notice that, I didn't notice that at him. He had insecurities that he was quitet, at the same time, if you find someone that you like you ignore their insecurities, and if someone likes you they ignore your insecurities."

"For me, what interested me in him was his person, he was behaving nicely with me, he didn't insult me, that we were walking around the part, he wanted to be next to me, I wanted him to be next to me all the time, that was the attraction".

"He was a god, for me he looked like a good. In exchange, I would always find all kinds of flaws for others, that I didn't like, etc"

"He didn't cheat on me. And when he had a relationship while we broke up, he told me that if he had something serious with that girl, he would have broken up everything with me, and that if he had doubts, he wouldn't have gotten married with me"

"My brother on the other hand, he had a different love story than me. My father got him married. My father wanted money. He suffered a lot because he was in love with a woman who was a teacher. But my father didn't let him. I fought with my father. He gave in to my father. He suffered a lot. All the time he remembers that girl. He didn't had a happy life. He didn't had the one whom he loved, he didn't have the one whom he liked. What he had was habbit."

"Love is one thing, habbit is another thing, getting used to a person".

"He was never in love and in a relationship with he person he loves, he never had a happy life".

"Risk. But it's also a great reward. It's about risk and reward. So risk it, it's worth it for the reward".

"He was never in love and in a relationship. Didn't had a happy life".

"Don't get burned. Financially. But also not in my own way. But also take risks to be in a relationship with someone you love, it's amazing."

"Don't cheat. It's ugly. It's not nice. Break up and then find someone else."

"Many may envy you, if you found a good girl. They envy you because they can't find one like her. How beautiful she is, how smart and she also finishes school, but who found her?"

"If you listen to your mother, it's not true love, it may be for money, because she has 3 houses etc, and in my friend's case, that wasn't something serious either, to really want it, if he really wanted it, he would have gotten married with her".

"But instead, my friend's boyfriend was unstable and listened to his parents".

"My husband, on the other hand, cares about me, what I'm saying thath's what he does, I mean, I don't mean it like that, I mean what is good, not because I say it's good, what it's good that's what he does".

"He is calm, with a good soul, hearted"

"He is more intellectual, on thoughts, on soul, on other things"

"What I would wish to my nephews is to see them realised, to see them happy, to see them with what they like"

"I didn't feel the love from my parents, my parents treated me poorly, when I needed love my husband found me, maybe that's why I'm so attached on him that he's talking to me beautifuly, even now I feel the need for him to caress me and talk nicely to me".

"When he was drunk, I would always get compliments from other girls, that your husband is so fun, so cute, happy, when he is drunk, he was making jokes".

"Even if some people come to put sticks in your wheels, don't take part of that, what is in your soul that's what you should believe".

"You got to be aware that on the 1st place is your job, if you have money, you have relaxation, you have everything you want, if you have money you can go in vacantion an relax. But if you don't have money you are stressed, over the fact that you don't have money, over the fact that you have to ask for money to that one and that one at that age".

"On the 1st place the job. If you have job you have everything. Because you have money, and with money you can do everything".

"You may say that your mother and father give you money, but deep inside your soul that reacts and creates you a stress".

"Later in life, when you are 26-27, your mind will come to your head, you won't believe it now, but you will want to have a family, to have a child. Now you are between teenager and adult and you don't believe it.

"My husband was fluttery but I accepted him like that".

"And remember, that a good friend is the one who tells you your defects, not only praises you. Because it's easy to praise and as-kiss people. If we wants what's good from you, he pulls your shirt, it's not good, you have made a mistake. Not the one who claps when you have done something stupid."

"You got to produce. You got to realise in life. That's what life is about."

"It's a good thing to have a woman who cares more about you than you care about her, because the woman is the neck of the family, and the way the neck moves the head moves. You will have difficulties in life, and both you and hear will struggle, but she will struggle more than you".

"What to do on a date? dress nice, look nice, but personality-wise be yourself, because you need someone to like you for who you are. Not for who you pretend to be. Ok, don't start saying bad things about yourself, but behave how you would normally behave, without hesitation; yes be considerate, no don't tell her about how you failed all your exams or ended up falling into a pool full of phirania on the 1st date, just behave as you normally would in any other circumstance, be yourself. There is a sweet balance between trying to impress and bring yourself, that's the sweet spot you want to hit, are you scared? fine, be yourself and own it, be yourself while being scared. Nervous? same thing, be yourself and own it, don't shy away from it, some women may even appreciate you saying "I'm a little nervous at this meeting" it may take it as a sign that you like them, that you like their personality, and not just for the looks. So yes, dress well, look well, be a gentleman but also be yourself as in behave as if you would normally would but without throwing dirt at yourself and humiliating yourself, just try to have an enjoyable experience with the other person. And if you are nervous or afraid, be yourself and own it."

*ENDING NOTES:*

Work towards improving your life and towards becoming a Chad.

Hot people get a lot of attention from men.
And hot men get a lot of attention from women.

Better some cold indifference than desperation.

"Poor thing", empathy can help.
Sometimes being humble may help you in life, like "will please nicely", not only saying it, but acting like it, looking like it.
"May I please do that?".

*So if you want to make a TL;DR out of this:* keep talking to her, but not desperate look into your eyes, just fun to be around. Attract from a distance. Realistically, that's the best bet that you have so far, being like a pillar and improving your looks.

Focus on being fun to be around and that's it. And improve your looks.

How to be fun to be around? teasing is a great way to do it.

*And yes, you got to be serious, you got to be serious if you want to work for it and get the best benefits in life*.


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## Hexigoon (Mar 12, 2018)

Dezir said:


> *I think status is overrated*. *Is money important? sure. Is money that important? no*. You should have enough money to be a middle class guy, from there, looks and personality will do most of the work. I think the idea that women are attracted to status was perfectly valid 50 and 100 years ago when women didn't have the same rights as men. If you legally can't hold a job and make as many money as a man, *of course you're going to be attracted to status, for the sake of money*. But in a society where everyone is equal, money becomes less and less important when it comes to attracting a partner.
> 
> *Are you a millionare? if yes, then you are an exception*. Yes, women will be attracted to you being a millionaire, but that's only true for top 5%-1% of guys. Most of us aren't Leonardo Dicaprio. I don't think that today women in their 20s up to 30s look at the status of a man when considering whether they want to go out with him. Yes, there are gold diggers. Absolutely, clearly true, 100%. However, those are rare, the minority not the majority of women. And as any simp who donated 1000$ to Belle Delphine will tell you, *if you lead with money you won't get anywhere*. *You will only be needed and wanted for your money, what you can provide, not for who you are, they won't love you they will love your money*. So using money? in my opinion, sounds good, doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Seems like you're misunderstanding what I'm saying (and that's why I feel it's a shame you'd put in the effort with writing all this) but I'm not saying you need money or status to attract a woman, rather I'm saying you need money to do the bare essentials within our society, and that something like dating is made a luxury for those who can afford to do it, like with most leisurely activities and potential major commitments down the road like marriage or having kids together.

See, I don't personally date because I've learned that it's futile to expect a long-term relationship if either you or them are not able to afford it, and work / money concerns take priority over the relationship's survival or otherwise restrict your ability to be together.
I don't think I'm unattractive or that I'm a horrible person to be around, but that doesn't matter so much if you still lack social mobility. And it's not so easy to just "become middle class."


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## shameless (Apr 21, 2014)

OP I think maybe age or maturity/experience either or whichever trumps the other probably matters quite a bit.

Myself with more casual dating experience in the span of a decade, who already had children younger and did the whole failed marriage thing is not going to simply go for looks.

I am not going to dispute it is not a factor at all. I have certain people who just no matter what will never ever appeal to me physically who I would swipe left on for example. It not so inherently hot or not focused though like what is being referenced.

Anyways back to the maturity or experience thing. I myself usually look for well worded people, with SINCERE & AUTHENTIC looking profiles. I.e. looking close at eyes, smiles, images trying to be portrayed etc. Yes of course if you hand me 10 profiles and lets say I like every single persons personality then yes I am going to try to look at who I think is hottest as well to me. But the older I get the more I try to see the sincerity and authenticity of people, I like really kind eyes. So maybe 10 years ago a nice jawline, or good cheekbones sold me easier. Now a days I look much closer at the background too.

I felt I related to what Mark said.


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## CoopV (Nov 6, 2011)

You need to have both. Looks without substance is just lust and attraction will fade away quickly. Substance without looks can't bring a feeling of romance or physical attraction which is also a part of being attracted to someone. So looks draws someone in BUT substance keeps them there. For me I'd say I look for 60% looks and 40% substance. Just a tiny bit more in the looks department because what can I say... But looks without substance won't go ANYWHERE for me so it's not the most important thing.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

Purrfessor said:


> I'm the whole package, that is smart + looks good + has good personality. But I very much struggle dating. It's mostly my height, but it's also my financial situation that gets in the way.


Your height?
Man... Aren't most women like 5'3-5'5? How much taller does the dude have to be.

Financially it is a real struggle these days, man or woman. But yes, I do understand the traditional thing that a man has to be the bread winner, so there's still pressure on men.

Also I think, there is pressure on men, from _other men. _Is this true do you think? Men are competitive with each other in the work sector?

Also, inflation is high so that stings a lot of people's bank accounts.

I wouldn't be having any kids right now if I were married or a couple. Not saying people can't, but it doesn't seem feasible.


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## recycled_lube_oil (Sep 30, 2021)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Also I think, there is pressure on men, from _other men. _Is this true do you think? Men are competitive with each other in the work sector?


Guys compete by choice. Someone not trying thus not competing is what we all want, less competition that way. We don't pressure each other, its the needs for money that is the pressure.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

ENTJudgement said:


> Lets put it this way, if looks didn't matter then everyone would just marry their best friends. Looks is probably the main contributor which decided whether someone got friend zoned or bf/gf worthy.


Would they though? I've heard some best friends can be akin to a brother or sister so... That'll be weird.

I know what you mean though. Haha.


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## Eren Jaegerbomb (Nov 13, 2015)

recycled_lube_oil said:


> Guys compete by choice. Someone not trying thus not competing is what we all want, less competition that way. We don't pressure each other, its the needs for money that is the pressure.


True! I went for a job interview and there were others there. You could feel the invisible competitiveness to get the job...
We were all friendly... but we all wanted that position...


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## ai.tran.75 (Feb 26, 2014)

Hmmm I was thinking looks doesn’t matter - and came across a thread about muscular/bulky men . I guess I can’t find myself being romantically attracted to body builders or extremely buff men 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Purrfessor (Jul 30, 2013)

Eren Jaegerbomb said:


> Your height?
> Man... Aren't most women like 5'3-5'5? How much taller does the dude have to be.
> 
> Financially it is a real struggle these days, man or woman. But yes, I do understand the traditional thing that a man has to be the bread winner, so there's still pressure on men.
> ...


Competing with other men is easy, I have distinct advantages over other men in multiple areas. The areas I don't: height, bank account, teeth, dick size, social life. I'm 5 foot 6 which is 3 inches below average, making me probably the lower 30%. I'm extremely poor which makes me well below average making me probably lower 5%. This however is fixable and I'm trying to improve. My teeth aren't as good as others, but they're not bad. I'd say I'm in bottom 50%. My dick Size is a little over 6 inches which I'd say is bottom 65%. And I am not social. That seems to be a big deal to most. 

Imo my height shouldn't even be a factor if it's just 3 inch difference from average but it is because I shouldn't be comparing to average, but instead 3 inches above average (6 feet) because that's the standard they look for. That means I'm 6 inches under what they've set for lowest acceptable height making me "very short".

The rest I understand if it's a problem. But everybody has baggage and I've got some good qualities that shouldn't be ignored.


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## Mark R (Dec 23, 2015)

Looks don't make anybody more satisfied in the long run.


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## Queen of Cups (Feb 26, 2010)

Mark R said:


> Looks don't make anybody more satisfied in the long run.


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## daleks_exterminate (Jul 22, 2013)

*Do looks matter? yes. I find that looksing both ways before crossing the street both is important to survival. Of course not everyone can see out of their top face gumballs, but in this case using a seeing eyed dog or a special looksie stick is very cared about.*


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## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Looks are important, yes, however, if she can't carry a conversation with wit and aplomb, I don't care how pretty she is.


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