# Am I an ENFP who is overidentified with ISTJ shadow?



## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

Ok, I am reposting this here from the ENFP forum at the suggestion of @Owfin. 

I'm having doubts about my typing as ISTJ and would appreciate input.

Apart from once I have always tested as ISTJ and accepted it but I am now seriously doubting if this is correct. My doubts began since I realised I am an Enneagram 7w6 and not a 5w4 as I first thought. I only realised this because of my husband, who also knows the Enneagram and who knows me better than anyone else. If he hadn't pointed it out I would have carried on believing I was a 5. 

The problem seems to be that it's difficult for me to see myself objectively and completely. I think I focus on certain things but not the whole picture of a type. My husband says that when I do a test I probably don't answer from my gut but process the question mentally and then choose answers that are very objective and what I might do but not what I actually am naturally. He might be right. I am trying to figure it out. He says he sees me more as an ENFP. 

I don't feel myself that way though. Am I an ENFP who's confused herself with her ISTJ shadow? Am I projecting my positive, sunny, people qualities outward and not accepting them? Because when my husband says I am sunny, friendly, extraverted, optimistic, I think, no, I'm not that way. I often think that. Yet on the other hand, looking at my behaviour alone, I do behave friendly, bouncy and loud and I like to be cheerful and happy. I subjectively don't identify so much with that part of my behaviour though. I feel my anxiety, sensitivity and moodiness more closely. I always assumed the anxiety and emotionality are a sign of something "wrong" with me, some kind of unnatural trauma residue, but reading a little bit on the ENFP forum it seems to be normal for ENFPs and just something to be manage? 

Things that make me consider possibly being an ENFP:

I was naturally a social, sunny, loud child who, according to my mother, would talk to anyone and was very curious. I remember annoying my teachers in primary school, not intentionally, I was just really "out there" and didn't understand what the problem with that was. I was put out of class and made to write lines in the hall. My behaviour changed radically when I was around 6 to 8 years old coinciding with a big move away from my extended family and to a new country. My mother says she wondered what happened to me. I spent most of my childhood after that until I was a young adult depressed and shut down yet always pushing through. Very much in my head, antisocial and very unhappy. Impulsive and self-destructive until I got myself some therapy and found a stable love and acceptance. 

I can really relate to the quality of having a wide variety of seemingly contradictory interests. Someone who sees one side of me at a certain moment can often come to a very wrong picture of me. Some might see me as very serious and intellectual. Some might see me as simple and unaware. Others might see me more as a party, flamboyant type. And it seems to be difficult for people to square the contradictions. They find it hard to understand and accept that I do not fit into a certain box. Only someone who knows me really well can see how the different sides fit together. 

Re: communication: When I do presentations in front of groups I'm often told how especially good I was at it, that it was interesting but also enjoyable and very clear to understand. People come up to me afterwards to tell me personally how they appreciated it. 

I relate a lot to needing empathy when sharing my emotions and problems and not necessarily a solution that makes me feel my emotions are unheard. 

That's a few things. I don't want to make this post even longer. It should be enough to come to a certain picture. How does it sound to others? On the other hand, regarding ISTJ, I have very strong concentration skills, I can be very serious and focused, I work well with details and accuracy. (Yet I do also often use my intuition to jump to the big picture to save myself time.) I need introverted time. I am wondering if this is to do with my tritype, which is 7-9-4. The 4 might explain why I relate more to my negative emotions than my positive ones. I am just brainstorming here, I'm not sure. Any feedback would be much appreciated.


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## drowninthefear (Apr 26, 2011)

Sign of the Times said:


> Re: communication: When I do presentations in front of groups I'm often told how especially good I was at it, that it was interesting but also enjoyable and very clear to understand. People come up to me afterwards to tell me personally how they appreciated it.





Sign of the Times said:


> I have very strong concentration skills, I can be very serious and focused, I work well with details and accuracy.


These could easily be auxiliary or tertiary Te.

Also, ENPs are the most introverted of all the extrovert types. But being social isn't what introversion and extroversion are about when it comes to the typing. In your case you have to figure out if you use Ne or Si as a dominant function.

*Si: Internal Learning*
The Introverted Sensation function compares past events with current events. Si is associated with vivid memory recall and a reliance on experiential learning. Those with strong Si often prefer to take a 'hands on approach'. On the other hand, those with weak Si often do not benefit from interacting in that way.

*Ne: External Possibilities*
The Extroverted Intuition function is oriented toward generating new possibilities. Ne is all about brainstorming - imagining a variety of possible outcomes and considering them all to be possibly true. Ne is associated with new ideas and innovative breakthroughs.

If you're still not sure, take one- or all if you have the time/patience- of these cognitive quizzes and try to answer based on how you are 70% of the time:
Jungian Cognitive Function Quiz
K2C - Cognitive Processes Quiz
Classic Jungian Cognitive Test


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Well a lot of what you wrote doesn't really pertain to type explicitly (it really speaks more of the content of your complexes), but that being said I don't think you are a Si-dom. You're probably an ENFP who has picked up a persona that sort of looks like a stereotype of ISJ but aren't really that.

Remember its possible for people to take on personas or outward identities that completely betray who they really are underneath (actually this is sort of the definition of the persona). Socialization, the environment, the expectations of other people, your career, peer group, etc., will all influence how you present yourself and a lot of people actually fail to recognize the difference between who they present themselves to be versus who they really are underneath and in many cases think they are their persona. It is quite possible for two people with two very different function types to have a similar persona (you see this all the time in families where everyone appears to have the same overall disposition despite all being individually different types). 

So the question is when you strip away all the external factors, all of the impression management and role playing and start to look at things less from the standpoint of what do you do, but what do you desire (and more importantly what do you not desire), you start to have a clearer picture of who you really are and can more accurately find your true type (and be open to the fact that it may be something completely different than what you expected, sometimes even the opposite).


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> It is quite possible for two people with two very different function types to have a similar persona (you see this all the time in families where everyone appears to have the same overall disposition despite all being individually different types).


Very very true. And yes, ENFP for the OP as well.


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

So y'all think I'm an ENFP? Someone else in the ENFP forum thinks so too. That makes me feel like, aaarrrggh!! :shocked:



LiquidLight said:


> Well a lot of what you wrote doesn't really pertain to type explicitly (it really speaks more of the content of your complexes), but that being said I don't think you are a Si-dom. You're probably an ENFP who has picked up a persona that sort of looks like a stereotype of ISJ but aren't really that.
> 
> Remember its possible for people to take on personas or outward identities that completely betray who they really are underneath (actually this is sort of the definition of the persona). Socialization, the environment, the expectations of other people, your career, peer group, etc., will all influence how you present yourself and a lot of people actually fail to recognize the difference between who they present themselves to be versus who they really are underneath and in many cases think they are their persona. It is quite possible for two people with two very different function types to have a similar persona (you see this all the time in families where everyone appears to have the same overall disposition despite all being individually different types).


My family is very corporate, business, high performance, non-emotional, non-creative, tough, survivalists, society minded. I tend to walk to the beat of my own drum. I didn't feel very understood. I played music and read poetry and philosophy. I am good with languages and writing. I am not good in office environments. I have been lucky enough to be able to avoid working in an office. 



LiquidLight said:


> So the question is when you strip away all the external factors, all of the impression management and role playing and start to look at things less from the standpoint of what do you do, but what do you desire (and more importantly what do you not desire), you start to have a clearer picture of who you really are and can more accurately find your true type (and be open to the fact that it may be something completely different than what you expected, sometimes even the opposite).


When you put it like that it's easier to answer the question. ISTJ values, while I have nothing against them, do not give me joy, no. And I am looking for joy. E.g. I do not particularly value tradition for its own sake. My life is full of change and different experiences rather than something predictable and familiar. I am currently trying to figure out what kind of work I would like to do in the very long-term into my old age. I like what I do now and it fits my life at the moment but it is too isolating and there is little scope for development beyond just getting better at the work and earning more money at it. I would like to work with people, something that will tie together my spiritual, psychological and esoteric interests, something where I feel I am really changing something for people rather than just carrying out a certain task well for someone else, which is what I do now. I guess that doesn't sound much like an ISTJ and is kind of ENFP-ish.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

I haven't read this thoroughly, but it seems like you are describing outward behaviour as opposed to information gathering (perceiving) and processing (judging). You could be an ISTJ in MBTI and an ENFP (or something else?) in Jungian terms. The two aren't consistent, as I've come to realize.

I figured you were a unique and interesting individual since your first post in the E7 forum. Best of luck ^_^


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Like @Spades says it really depends on what level you're interested in knowing yourself. I honestly don't think you're an MBTI ISTJ simply because you seem to reject just about everything that MBTI says ISTJ is LOL, which indicates probably a Ne-preference. 

What I was getting at is that what you call 'Shadow' is probably just a role you were sort of forced into playing for the sake of your environment and because on some level you know its not you (in fact if you really are an ENFP, then Si literally is your shadow which would really cause you a lot of stress if you had to maintain that for a while). Dr. Beebe has an interesting story about this very thing that maybe you might identify with.



> I remember one extraverted intuitive man who came from a sensation family, and I thought he was an introverted sensation type because he was engaged in activities, he worked around machines, and he was doing things that involved sensation, except the trouble was he was doing it terribly, and he was often losing his job. I didn’t quite catch on for the longest time. He was a bright fellow. I just thought he was unadapted, or primitive, or whatever. Finally it all came out. He was an extraverted intuitive, just like me, and extravert sensation father, and sensation type brother, and I think the whole family had been sensation types in some kind of sensation type business that he was trying to follow, and it was all wrong for him. He was treated sort of like the identified patient, we say, in a family, or the new therapist version of the black sheep in the family, he was sort of the black sheep in his family, and he walked around failing for all the rest of them because for them to get into intuition at all was to be a failure. So we had a lot of work to do, and I still remember our discovery of his type followed a dream in which he had gone somewhere where he had felt at home and could be himself. And right after that dream he told me what his type was, and that I had been wrong to think he was sensation oriented.


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

Spades said:


> I haven't read this thoroughly, but it seems like you are describing outward behaviour as opposed to information gathering (perceiving) and processing (judging). You could be an ISTJ in MBTI and an ENFP (or something else?) in Jungian terms. The two aren't consistent, as I've come to realize.
> 
> I figured you were a unique and interesting individual since your first post in the E7 forum. Best of luck ^_^


Thanks :happy: That's kind of you to say. 

Yes, I was going more by outward behaviour. I'm not very well versed in the functions in a theoretical way. I find Jung's descriptions difficult to understand and to apply. I was talking to @Owfin about Si in the ENFP forum, and the way she describes her thought process, I don't think like that. 



LiquidLight said:


> Like @_Spades_ says it really depends on what level you're interested in knowing yourself. I honestly don't think you're an MBTI ISTJ simply because you seem to reject just about everything that MBTI says ISTJ is LOL, which indicates probably a Ne-preference.
> 
> What I was getting at is that what you call 'Shadow' is probably just a role you were sort of forced into playing for the sake of your environment and because on some level you know its not you (in fact if you really are an ENFP, then Si literally is your shadow which would really cause you a lot of stress if you had to maintain that for a while). Dr. Beebe has an interesting story about this very thing that maybe you might identify with.


I identify with the story in that I am very different from my parents but I never tried to force myself into the kinds of activities that they would have preferred I do in the way the man in the story does. Such as business like them. So I wasn't and am not a failure. I've had a lot of success in my life. Just not at the things that they think are worth being successful at. I knew that I would be a failure or mediocre if I tried to be an accountant or doctor, etc. so I was very forceful about doing the things I wanted to do. I used to be a musician but quit. I speak several languages and work with those now. I remember once showing my professor at university a textbook that didn't teach with lists and rules but gave phrases in the foreign language with minimal or no rules in such a way that you should pick up what the pattern is and recognise the "rule" in this way. I found this a fantastic method, much better than the traditional rote learning with lists and remembering the rule and the exception. This way there was no rule slowing down your thinking. It's easier to remember, more felt and living and less mechanical. Exceptions are picked up naturally without learning them as separate lists. She wasn't as enthusiastic as I was expecting her to be and said that most people probably wouldn't be able to learn in that way. Is this an example of Ne preference?


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

Sign of the Times said:


> Thanks :happy: That's kind of you to say.
> 
> Yes, I was going more by outward behaviour. I'm not very well versed in the functions in a theoretical way. I find Jung's descriptions difficult to understand and to apply. I was talking to @Owfin about Si in the ENFP forum, and the way she describes her thought process, I don't think like that.
> 
> ...


Yea this all points to an Intuition preference. Probably Ne.


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## Owfin (Oct 15, 2011)

*thinks ENFP too now*


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> Like What I was getting at is that what you call 'Shadow' is probably just a role you were sort of forced into playing for the sake of your environment and because on some level you know its not you (in fact if you really are an ENFP, then Si literally is your shadow which would really cause you a lot of stress if you had to maintain that for a while).


I was thinking about this last night and I think you are right. The way I am with my husband and children, for example, is very different from the way I am when I am physically around my parents. I go into a shut-down mode that I cannot control, I become very wooden and stone-like, even now that I have my own life, they still have that automatic effect on me if I see them. And I was like that most of the time growing up, wooden and stone-like, not only at home, also at school, with anyone, apart from my INFJ friend, who was a saving grace in my life then. It took a long time for that to fall away from me. Even years after I was away from my parents and pretty much living my own life I was still in a kind of shut-down mode. I wasn't very aware of what was really going on internally. Even now it still feels subjectively rather present, which is why I think it was difficult for me at first to accept being a 7 when my husband pointed out I could not be a 5, and he also thinks I am an ENFP. I got to know MBTI long before he did, which was only recently, and he says that when I first announced "I am an ISTJ" he figured I should know what I'm talking about, lol. 

Regarding Si shadow, yes, I was a very stressed out kid, shut-down mode was the only way I could deal with it. My parents even had me tested medically to see if something was wrong with me. Given my childhood environment, something like ISTJ was a good adaptation. Keeping my head low, doing what I was told, being quiet, being "proper", not expressing my emotions - a kind of stereotype, as you said, of an ISTJ, not an authentic, living ISTJ. This all exploded later. I was falling apart but managed to pull myself together eventually. It was not easy. I also remember reconnecting with my instinctive knowing. I had turned it off a long time because I did not find it was encouraged in the schools I went to. I don't know exactly what it would be in MBTI-speak, but to use my own words I found it a very materialist, concrete kind of knowing and thinking, which was considered intelligent and intellectual but that completely missed a whole other dimension of reality.


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> I don't know exactly what it would be in MBTI-speak, but to use my own words I found it a very materialist, concrete kind of knowing and thinking, which was considered intelligent and intellectual but that completely missed a whole other dimension of reality.


I think it underscores the difference between people who lead with sensation and those with intuition because they really are two different ways of seeing the world (focusing on what is there, or focusing on what isn't). Sensation is at heart empirical, interested in only what is in front of your own eyes (or how you perceive that thing in the case of Si). Intuition rejects that to see the forest from the trees (but might bump into a tree).

But you do get at the heart of what a lot of people face as they grow older (I'm in my 30s in a similar position) which is the question am I who I really am? Or am I who I think I am? And a lot of times we find ourselves playing parts for other people or for the environment betraying our true selves, and sometimes the true self (especially for extraverts who are less used to looking inwardly) might be kinda scary.


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> But you do get at the heart of what a lot of people face as they grow older (I'm in my 30s in a similar position) which is the question am I who I really am? Or am I who I think I am? And a lot of times we find ourselves playing parts for other people or for the environment betraying our true selves, and sometimes the true self (especially for extraverts who are less used to looking inwardly) might be kinda scary.


I am in my 30s too and asking those same questions of myself. It is funny because I have always asked those questions but they have come up in a new kind of way recently. I am reassessing things in a major way and it has rekindled my interest in Jung. Yes, looking inward has been rather scary but it has upped my level of self-perception. Enneagram helped a lot and identifying as a 7 because that prompted me to re-examine things more closely, especially painful things I thought I was over. 

May I pick your brain about the anima/animus? It's totally fine if you're not inclined or too busy. No pressure, really. Just ignore my post, haha. I think I can also figure it out somehow, myself. I just find my animus issues seem related to my recent typing as ENFP 7 and I happened to see your posts to @_fourtines_ about her animus and I would value your opinion. 

You said to @_fourtines_ that the anima/animus is the mirror image of the persona. In my case, the persona and shadow are the same, i.e. ISTJ. Ego is ENFP. So that would make my ego and animus the same, i.e. ENFP. I really wonder that it is sinificant for me to grasp this because I think I have seen my animus in my dreams. Only two or three times max maybe, a couple of years ago, but one dream especially was super strong where the dream even said don't forget this dream, remember it a long time. It was surprising at the time to be a male in those dreams. I didn't know about how the animus shows up as a male for women in dreams. I'm curious what you think because my understanding of these things is superficial as yet. He(me) was a young boy, in a positive way - innocence, play, curiosity, freedom. He is something that is part of my spiritual development upward. When I get to the top, I will reach him. But he was me. That sounds like an ENFP-like animus, do you think?


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## LiquidLight (Oct 14, 2011)

> You said to @<span class="highlight"><i><a href="http://personalitycafe.com/member.php?u=10103" target="_blank">fourtines</a></i></span> that the anima/animus is the mirror image of the persona. In my case, the persona and shadow are the same, i.e. ISTJ. Ego is ENFP. So that would make my ego and animus the same, i.e. ENFP. I really wonder that it is sinificant for me to grasp this because I think I have seen my animus in my dreams. Only two or three times max maybe, a couple of years ago, but one dream especially was super strong where the dream even said don't forget this dream, remember it a long time. It was surprising at the time to be a male in those dreams. I didn't know about how the animus shows up as a male for women in dreams. I'm curious what you think because my understanding of these things is superficial as yet. He(me) was a young boy, in a positive way - innocence, play, curiosity, freedom. He is something that is part of my spiritual development upward. When I get to the top, I will reach him. But he was me. That sounds like an ENFP-like animus, do you think?


Yea I mean I'm no Von Franz I wont try to interpret your dream. I can point you some great resources on that. But the anima/animus is actually compensatory to the persona (mirror image was really the wrong term), the anima is everything the persona isn't. So that doesn't always neatly mean an ENFP has an ISTJ anima/animus. I was being overly simplistic, but in reality the persona and anima/animus complex has less to do with the functions than we think so its not always the case that your animus will be carried in a Si-dom. (The only reason we say that the Inferior carries the anima/animus is because the inferior function is the closest thing to the Shadow, so any unconscious influences will often enter through the doorway of the Inferior function, but it really does depend on the content of your persona image.

In this thread http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...k-guide-understanding-jungian-psychology.html there is a whole section just on the anima/animus, but here's some excerpts



> A woman’s inner man, her animus, is strongly colored by her experience of her personal father. Just as a man is apt to marry his mother, so to speak (assuming her influence was positive), a woman is inclined to favor a man psychologically like her father, *or, again, his opposite*.
> 
> Whereas the anima in a man functions as his soul, a woman’s animus is more like an unconscious mind. It manifests negatively in fixed ideas, unconscious assumptions and conventional opinions that may be generally right but just beside the point in a particular situation. A woman unconscious of her masculine side tends to be highly opinionated—animus-possessed. This kind of woman proverbially wears the pants; she rules the roost, or tries to. The men attracted to her will be driven to distraction by her whims, coldly emasculated, while she herself wears a mask of indifference to cover her insecurity.
> 
> ...


Marie Von Franz really wrote the book on the animus (literally) and has tons of insights on the subject, you might find in a Google search or watch one of her _Way of the Dream_ videos (they're long but highly insightful).


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## davisk (Sep 12, 2010)

@Sign of the Times, I wouldn't even second guess your ENFP-ness. I remember reading your type was ISTJ in the sidebar when we had that conversation about the 947 tritype a while ago and being confused. Sorry to interrupt... this is a great thread... carry on...


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

LiquidLight said:


> Yea I mean I'm no Von Franz I wont try to interpret your dream. I can point you some great resources on that.


Yes, please. Thank you  



LiquidLight said:


> Marie Von Franz really wrote the book on the animus (literally) and has tons of insights on the subject, you might find in a Google search or watch one of her _Way of the Dream_ videos (they're long but highly insightful).


I have started watching the Way of the Dream films. I have always listened to my dreams since I was a child, it is a topic I find really fascinating, thanks for the link.


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

davisk said:


> @_Sign of the Times_ , I wouldn't even second guess your ENFP-ness. I remember reading your type was ISTJ in the sidebar when we had that conversation about the 947 tritype a while ago and being confused. Sorry to interrupt... this is a great thread... carry on...


Haha, yes. Someone else told me once that for an ISTJ I sound like an NF. It is all making more sense to me now. It's an odd thing to realise and to factor in the things that until now I just automatically categorised as anomalies. I was just a shut-down extravert rather than a true introvert. My husband is a Thinking type and we often have classic T vs F issues. I don't know how I didn't see it for what it is. I figured it was to do with me being a woman and he the man and that someone has to take care of the F side of things if he isn't going to so it was me doing it by default. But I see now that yes, F is my preference or we wouldn't have some of the recurring issues that we do.


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## davisk (Sep 12, 2010)

Sign of the Times said:


> someone has to take care of the F side of things if he isn't going to so it was me doing it by default. .


hahaha. spot on! funny how type seems to be so *shallow* at the same time that it is incredibly intricate. it's there the whole time-- i mean, type can be so incredibly obvious-- but it still gets skirted. pulling that veil away is incredible and so so so inspiring to watch.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

This is truly an enlightening thread! The forum could use more honest threads like this. Thanks for the insightful contributions, @Sign of the Times. Keep it up if you wish. I know the T/F clashes quite well also. It's fascinating how living a life so far outside of your own natural perspectives has given you insight into the validity of typology. Based on personal experiences IRL, I've found this to be very true for me as well.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

> It's an odd thing to realise and to factor in the things that until now I just automatically categorised as anomalies.


You couldn't have put this better.


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## Enfpleasantly (Mar 5, 2012)

Wow, again I feel the same, except I always knew I was sunny, energetic, optimistic. So when that started to go away, I was so confused! Have you checked out the thread, The 10 Stages of a Depressed ENFP? I believe that's what happened to me, and yes, I was living my ISTJ shadow. I'm still not completely out yet. I have always been obviously and blatantly ENFP, but man, my life took a weird turn and I became so "not me"...like I said, I'm still coming out if it. I'm not all the way there yet.

http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/10708-10-stages-depressed-enfp.html


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## Sign of the Times (Mar 4, 2011)

Enfpleasantly said:


> Wow, again I feel the same, except I always knew I was sunny, energetic, optimistic. So when that started to go away, I was so confused! Have you checked out the thread, The 10 Stages of a Depressed ENFP? I believe that's what happened to me, and yes, I was living my ISTJ shadow. I'm still not completely out yet. I have always been obviously and blatantly ENFP, but man, my life took a weird turn and I became so "not me"...like I said, I'm still coming out if it. I'm not all the way there yet.
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/enfp-articles/10708-10-stages-depressed-enfp.html


Yes, I've read that thread. I can definitely see myself in those stages previously in my life. Good luck with getting back to yourself again. I'm also not all the way there yet, but I can feel myself getting there. The signs are pointing that way. It feels good though, like everything I was always attracted to but thought I couldn't be or have, turns out I can be and already am if I would just give myself some credit instead of being negative toward certain parts of myself.


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## grazzymelorj01 (Dec 27, 2015)

Can depression change someone's personality?


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