# America and the World, NT's Turn to Rule?



## spoonforkknife (Sep 15, 2010)

So I was kinda sorta watching Barack Obama's State of the Union speech and he mentioned that back in the day you could go to the local plant/business and get a job for life without needing a degree. That has changed, and to be honest, I'm pretty stoked. School comes easy for me and my resume more often than not outshines the competition's and I don't even try that hard (school or other achievements). In addition I am also more socially capable than most people who are on my level. 

So, is this the NT's shortcut to the top? What about other countries? Or as one of my coworkers would say, "What is going on here?"


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## jbking (Jun 4, 2010)

*Hhhhmmmm....*

Not necessarily as I could imagine more than a few entrepreneurial NTs out there who could do just fine without a degree. I did graduate from university in Canada back in 1997 so in some ways I am a little old perhaps. Canada is in some ways like the U.S. though so I'm not sure how well I'd compare it to other countries. I did work in the U.S. for a number of years so I do know a little of what goes on there.

Any type can be dominant in the world depending on which metrics one wants to use and how hard will someone use the strengths they were born having, IMO. That isn't to say an NT can't be cool, just that other types can also be cool ya know.


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## Harley (Jul 5, 2009)

I believe education is just one outlet to success. Job and volunteer experience, not to mention having an amazing personality can make up for lackluster grades. There are so many different factors to success ranging from education to sheer dumb luck, that I think any type can maneuvre their way in this world, they just have to take the path that fits their abilities best.


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## Monkey King (Nov 16, 2010)

A degree is just piece of paper, it's as flimsy as the dollar bill---- it's really how well the holder can utilize that paper into opening doors.


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## Mr.Xl Vii (Jan 19, 2011)

I really dont think it matters. I love learning and seeking knowledge, but I can't see myself go through 4 more years of schooling after college. I loathe the way the american university system works. I hate that it's static and boring. The only parts I ever enjoyed were when I was given the textbook so I can read through the material myself, or when I was given an essay so that I can demonstrate my obvious mastery of the material. I hate tests, I think they're shitty indicators of knowledge. Why is it that I know more about a particular subject than another student in the class, but they get the same grade, if not a better one, because they adhered to the rules more? I hate it. I'd rather just go to a bookstore or order the text online, and teach myself.

My boredom is what has lead me to art school and I'm probably just going to freelance the rest of my life. I'm not a fan of having a boss stifle my creativity, nor am I a fan of spending long hours sitting in a class room waiting for the rest of the class to catch up. Degrees are nothing but pieces of paper that only show how long you're willing to be spoon-fed your education.

With all that being said, I sort of still want a PHD. But we'll see what happens.


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## Magnificent Bastard (Sep 22, 2010)

Mr.Xl Vii said:


> I really dont think it matters. I love learning and seeking knowledge, but I can't see myself go through 4 more years of schooling after college. I loathe the way the american university system works. I hate that it's static and boring. The only parts I ever enjoyed were when I was given the textbook so I can read through the material myself, or when I was given an essay so that I can demonstrate my obvious mastery of the material. I hate tests, I think they're shitty indicators of knowledge. Why is it that I know more about a particular subject than another student in the class, but they get the same grade, if not a better one, because they adhered to the rules more? I hate it. I'd rather just go to a bookstore or order the text online, and teach myself.
> 
> My boredom is what has lead me to art school and I'm probably just going to freelance the rest of my life. I'm not a fan of having a boss stifle my creativity, nor am I a fan of spending long hours sitting in a class room waiting for the rest of the class to catch up. Degrees are nothing but pieces of paper that only show how long you're willing to be spoon-fed your education.
> 
> With all that being said, I sort of still want a PHD. But we'll see what happens.


I can relate. In uni I always relished getting the book and teaching myself. I just learn so much better that way. I couldn't understand the people that had to get together in groups and drill it over and over again until they memorized their understanding, instead of actually understanding.

And it's interesting that you say essay writing is a better indicator of understanding over test-taking, because I always thought that formulating an original explanation of something on page is the best way to prove understanding of material because it shows that you can take the material and create new meaning out of it. 

If you can't manipulate material, but only memorize it, then what have you really learned? In the latter case, you've only retained.


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## st0831 (Jul 13, 2010)

Actually, I thought of it as the opposite in that education is becoming more fitting for SJs, not NTs. As much as I like to associate education with NTs, that is absolutely not the case. If education is sought for the sake of learning and exploring, then you can say it is for NTs HOWEVER, education nowadays consists of accomplishing this and acquiring that to PROVE that someone is actually qualified, not capable, for the job. Going through the system, most of my classmates never made the effort to question why things are so instead just memorize what they are spoon-fed, there is absolutely no interest or love of the topic.

Also, I have this perspective those that have power in society are reluctant to give it up. If you think an education can get you far into the depths of society, I'm afraid the surface hasn't even been scratched. I don't think NTs are willing to give up their high positions without being dragged off their throne. I speculate this is true.

P.S. I have to add in, consider this situation. Why would a person high in society want NTs who are capable of climbing the social ladder, possibly to the foot of the throne? If they had a choice of SJs vs NTs as "minions," I bet you they will choose SJs to protect their position even if they are incompetent.


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## Imperatrix (Jan 8, 2011)

It really all depends. I think overconfidence in the power of a degree is a liability.


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## Monte (Feb 17, 2010)

I think a lot of you are being unrealistic.

In a perfect world, that piece of paper wouldn't matter, but even if you're trying to start a business, people turn their nose up if you don't have that degree. I know because I'm starting one next year and I've already got people down my throat about it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but because society has agreed that that paper is important, it's going to be.


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## Harley (Jul 5, 2009)

Monte said:


> I think a lot of you are being unrealistic.
> 
> In a perfect world, that piece of paper wouldn't matter, but even if you're trying to start a business, people turn their nose up if you don't have that degree. I know because I'm starting one next year and I've already got people down my throat about it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but because society has agreed that that paper is important, it's going to be.


I don't think anybody is advocating here that a degree has little to no worth but rather, that just by itself it isn't as spectacular as people make it out to be. You need to combine that degree with different things to make the most out of it, and that there are different combinations of experience and education which help you utilize that degree to its maximum potential. Of course you don't want to go out into the workforce with no degree, but at the same time you just don't want to have a college degree but with no job or volunteer experience to back you up.


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## Imperatrix (Jan 8, 2011)

Monte said:


> I think a lot of you are being unrealistic.
> 
> In a perfect world, that piece of paper wouldn't matter, but even if you're trying to start a business, people turn their nose up if you don't have that degree. I know because I'm starting one next year and I've already got people down my throat about it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but because society has agreed that that paper is important, it's going to be.


My husband and I both have degrees and quite a bit of graduate work. My husband is also an enlisted soldier (looking to become an officer). My experience living in on post amongst the enlisted population and their families has given me quite an opportunity for consideration regarding the value of a degree. I am presently a homemaker, not actively "using" my degree, but to me it still has value.

A degree is not just a piece of paper. The piece of paper is a symbol of distinction, welcoming you into (at least) the middle class. Some people may think that the middle class is a economic status, but it is not. It is a _socio_-economic status. I am surrounded by people who have the very same income we do, the very same living quarters, and families to care for, just as we do. However, they way we approach our resources and obligations is vastly different. The way we carry ourselves is different. 

As the author of this well-researched blog post points out, it's the educational _journey_ that changes you, especially if you have a working-class background like me. It also demonstrates to employers that - not only are you a part of the "club" - you can finish what you start. _Some College_ is a demeaning box to check on an application, almost worse than if you hadn't had any college at all.

Can people be successful without degrees? Definitely. Many businesses can be successfully managed with just the expertise necessary to operate. Can people be wildly successful like Gates, Zuckerberg and Branson without a degree? Well, yes, but there can be only so many Gates, Zuckerbergs and Bransons; and these guys didn't start out from lower-class families. Which is why my degree is important, even though I am not seeking employment at the present time. The odds of becoming a successful, educated person increase when you have educated parents.

As I said before, though, it is a dangerous thing to become overconfident in the power of a degree. When times are tough (as they are now) a degree may not get you as far as you hope. It's a degree, not a Golden Ticket. I know plenty of people who graduated in the last few years working far below the level their of degree or returning to graduate school in order to gain an advantage.


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## absentminded (Dec 3, 2010)

TravelinMax said:


> So I was kinda sorta watching Barack Obama's State of the Union speech and he mentioned that back in the day you could go to the local plant/business and get a job for life without needing a degree. That has changed, and to be honest, I'm pretty stoked. School comes easy for me and my resume more often than not outshines the competition's and I don't even try that hard (school or other achievements). In addition I am also more socially capable than most people who are on my level.
> 
> So, is this the NT's shortcut to the top? What about other countries? Or as one of my coworkers would say, "What is going on here?"


Nope. As I've said numerous times elsewhere, education is biased towards SJ's. Not angry about it. If anything, it motivates me to rock their world harder. To answer your question, though, it's definitely not a shortcut since we're the people who learn best by teaching ourselves.



Magnificent Bastard said:


> I can relate. In uni I always relished getting the book and teaching myself. I just learn so much better that way. I couldn't understand the people that had to get together in groups and drill it over and over again until they memorized their understanding, instead of actually understanding.
> 
> And it's interesting that you say essay writing is a better indicator of understanding over test-taking, because I always thought that formulating an original explanation of something on page is the best way to prove understanding of material because it shows that you can take the material and create new meaning out of it.
> 
> If you can't manipulate material, but only memorize it, then what have you really learned? In the latter case, you've only retained.


The other problem is that the testing methodology of nearly every education system is skewed toward efficiency and away from true competence, which hurts us further.



Monte said:


> In a perfect world, that piece of paper wouldn't matter, but even if you're trying to start a business, people turn their nose up if you don't have that degree. I know because I'm starting one next year and I've already got people down my throat about it. I'm not saying it's impossible, but because society has agreed that that paper is important, it's going to be.


That's a fine line to walk. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers should definitely be required to have a paper certifying their competence. I'm sure there are other professions with legitimate education requirements as well.

Going into plain ol' business (accounting too, perhaps?) really shouldn't require such a paper. An entry level business position lacks the ability inflict harm on anyone as one acquires competence. There is no reason to require four years of academics before accepting them as entry-level employees.



Imperatrix said:


> A degree is not just a piece of paper. The piece of paper is a symbol of distinction, welcoming you into (at least) the middle class. Some people may think that the middle class is a economic status, but it is not. It is a _socio_-economic status. I am surrounded by people who have the very same income we do, the very same living quarters, and families to care for, just as we do. However, they way we approach our resources and obligations is vastly different. The way we carry ourselves is different.


I doubt many other NT's will be swayed by this argument. A more persuasive argument might be to emphasize the understanding to be gained by taking college-level classes, but doing something for the sake of prestige/status just irks me.



Imperatrix said:


> As the author of this well-researched blog post points out, it's the educational _journey_ that changes you, especially if you have a working-class background like me. It also demonstrates to employers that - not only are you a part of the "club" - you can finish what you start. _Some College_ is a demeaning box to check on an application, almost worse than if you hadn't had any college at all.
> 
> As I said before, though, it is a dangerous thing to become overconfident in the power of a degree. When times are tough (as they are now) a degree may not get you as far as you hope. It's a degree, not a Golden Ticket. I know plenty of people who graduated in the last few years working far below the level their of degree or returning to graduate school in order to gain an advantage.


Much better argument.

Yet the change that the journey provides is one that many NT's already seek. We are driven to understand ourselves and the world around us and solve the problems we observe. So, to me at least, it still doesn't stand very well. One could make the case that it would help us develop our Feeling and Sensing sides, but I can do that working at McDonalds. Not saying that I disagree with the importance of a college education, just that these are relatively poor arguments in my mind.

In fact a scene from a movie comes to mind. Language warning.






To refer back to the OP's question, it isn't a shortcut for us, and it certainly doesn't guarantee us success. Hard work and competence will pay off, though. I'm curious what career you're gunning for.


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