# Se and the use of force/intimidation



## elixare (Aug 26, 2010)

So I keep on hearing that one of the symptoms of hyperactive Se is that one often resort to force/intimidation to resolve issues....eg. the stereotypical high school bully is an ESTP, people who get into random fights in the street tend to be Se doms, Socionics claim that Se is related to willpower/using territorial/aggressive tactics, etc...

In some ways, it may make sense since hyperawareness of the physical surrounding may give you the impression that you can do anything you want in the present moment (such as beating some random people up)....And lack of a balancing Ni to inform you of the various future consequences of actions may lead to impulsive behavior

But then if you look at the ISFPs, despite having aux Se, they're like the paragon of peaceful behavior and avoid conflict like the plague (though of course they also have dom Fi which seeks peace/harmony as well as tertiary Ni)...nonetheless aux Se is still a fairly prominent position in the hierarchy and yet I hardly ever see an ISFP using force/intimidation to resolve issues 

So the question is, to what extent do you think Se has any connection with the propensity to use of force/intimidation tactics, and how exactly are the two related? (if they are related at all)


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## Kito (Jan 6, 2012)

I don't think Se has anything to do with taking action or intimidating others, Se is just perception. It'd be the paired judging function (Ti/Fi) which cause the things you're talking about. 

If anything, Se is pretty good at picking up the attitudes and behaviour of others by observing body language and such, that's why ESFPs are labelled the Performers, because they're so good at observing the audience's reaction and tweaking their behaviour to get a response. 

But it still comes down to the judging functions, as you said ISFPs are hardly ever forceful/intimidating unless under major stress. This is yet another error Keirsey made, grouping ISFPs with ESTPs brings up speculations about Se like this. The two types have almost nothing in common.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I think the OP is viewing this with rather narrow scope. If you narrow this down to physical impulsivity, then sure, I can see ISFPs being reactive (and who says they can't be aggressive either - it may be rare, but it's probably not impossible).


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## Planisphere (Apr 24, 2012)

If Se is a dominant function, then the individual has far more control over it than he/she does when it's an inferior or shadow-tail function. I don't think there's any correlation between Se and bullying or aggressive tactics, but here's the difference between Se as a dominant and Se as an inferior: the bully using Se as a dominant is more likely to be consciously aware (and possibly even proud) of his tactics, flaunting them about more often; the bully using Se as an inferior or shadow is less likely to be consciously aware of his tactics, and probably more guilty using them even now (Se-doms that bullied are more likely to feel guilt later than now like Se-inferiors will).

All types could use bullying for reasons they may have determined are necessary based on their functional stacking. Not all Fi/Fe types are peaceful, and neither are all Ti/Te types. 'Physical' bullying is more likely to be considered by someone with at LEAST Si/Se as an inferior function, but Jung's model shows every type with Si/Se somewhere. I don't subscribe to the theory that everyone will have Si/Se somewhere in their personality, but it definitely seems likely if you consider the first SIX functions (including two of the shadow functions following the inferior) as quite definitive of the individual. What are the chances both Si and Se are going to be the butt-end of the shadow functions?

All that being said, anyone is capable of physical bullying. Different types will have a propensity (<-- IMPORTANT WORD) to different forms of bullying depending on their situation and functional stacking.


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)




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## MilkyWay132 (Jul 15, 2010)

Impulsive behavior, maybe, but probably not agression. I actually think a strong Se user would have more control over their Se, but sometime with shadow Se wouldn't so *that* could maybe lead to bad actions. But hold on a second..Se is a perception function, not a judging one, so that doesn't quite make sense. Oops.. :frustrating:


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

I actually _do _think Se can take an "aggressive" form in some people who use it, though aggression itself may not be the essence of the function. I do think willpower and rigidity are, and that they often take the form of aggression in specific situations. This is particularly true when the user wants to accomplish something, or has a goal of attainment in mind. Here are a few concrete examples I've observed:


ESTP college friend is in the army, and he used Se to create an intimidating air (voice, posture, facial expression, etc) when he tried to pull out information from people - then Ti to logically "trip" them. 
ESFP friend actually dated the ESTP, but felt as though he had manipulated her, so she'd do little things to "perform" as though she was interested in other guys to make him think she was actually independent 
ISFP friend can be _extremely _rigid about ethical principles. No, that's not as extreme as the other ones, but she simply won't budge with her concepts of what's "right" and "wrong" 

See, "aggressive" is a weird word. I'm sure not everyone will see these examples as "aggressive." Even though dominant Se is not, according to MBTI hierarchies, the same as the auxiliary function (obviously), it doesn't disappear in situations in which one is "dealing" with the world - cases in which the auxiliary would be expected to be used. It's role becomes less-pronounced, but it doesn't necessarily go away for Ti, as the "hierarchy" suggests. 

I'm really beginning to not be a fan of the hierarchy system. I really think function is about role, not order. There seem to be a lot of unjustified generalizations regarding function lately on this basis - there needs to be _some _sort of clarification here.


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## Noelle (Apr 25, 2012)

A dominant Se is the master of their immediate environment. They get ahead by noticing what is going on around them and knowing what to do for whatever happens. A dom Se is most likely to notice when intimidation tactics are working and when they're not, they're more likely to know what fights they can win and what fights they can't. Without Ni working as the main engine (but still in the background) they know what to do what to get the reaction they want RIGHT NOW, without any forethought as to what the consequences down the road will be. Often (but not all the time) this can manifest itself as aggressive behavior, because it is what gets the most immediate response that they want.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

ISFPs aren't all fuzzy bunnies. I believe strongly that Eminem (Marshall Mathers) is a counterphobic E6w5 ISFP. 

I am a good example of a counterphobic 6w7 ISFP. 

The stereotype of ISFPs is that they are E9s. I think this is also where the "pushover INFP" stereotype comes from ...combining Fi dom and Te inferior (which may lead already to some quietly avoidant independent behavior) with 9 traits of avoiding conflict, and voila stereotypes. 

I don't think ISFPs are ever always up in your face, but I think ISFPs are as capable of "aggressive" usage of Se just like any other Se type. It's never made sense to me that people are all like "yeah ISTPs have tempers" but they never include ISFPs in this, although they both have aux Se, and spikes of Je inferior rages.


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## Up and Away (Mar 5, 2011)

I can rock Se due to extensive sports, military, and martial arts training. Intimidation through overwhelming is one tactic.

I don't use it though unless there is truly a moral to the story.

Competition for the sake of it, unless with trusted friends, is very immature.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I was teased so much in high school. I would venture to say ESTP can tease ESTP. Anyway, In high school, I saw the movie IT. I really intensely dislike this idea that because Im a Sensor, I'm Pennywise. That movie terrified me and it still terrifies be. I had this reoccurring nightmare of the shower scene that if I were in the shower, the head of a shower was going to grow in much the same way as those gym shower heads. So, after a quick run through of INTJ...http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/24261-compleat-idiots-guide-intj.html, I have come to the conclusion, that an NT could stand up for themselves in high school, against an ESTP, and say "do you really want to repeat 10th grade?" "Do you think with your stupid mind that you can pass physics...can't even grasp a concept?" As a person sees here. The NT, is very smart, does not care about the feelings of others, and will be blunt. The ESTP is very smart,just not great in a high school setting,does not care about the feelings of others, and will be blunt. I picture an NF will only become unhinged when pushed too far. But an NT is very much an SP,SJ equal. The NT just needs to know how to harness it. But, I can see an NT expressing person being the ring leader in a bank heist on code cracking,because of mathematical precision, conceptual safe theory. And then chewing out dumb henchmen. And they would get their start in high school, with computerized grade changing. So, don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining, as the saying goes?

Edit:What I'm trying to do is combat the stereotype ESTP is a bully as the OP presents their case in the opening paragraph:




childofprodigy said:


> So I keep on hearing that one of the symptoms of hyperactive Se is that one often resort to force/intimidation to resolve issues....eg. the stereotypical high school bully is an ESTP, people who get into random fights in the street tend to be Se doms, Socionics claim that Se is related to willpower/using territorial/aggressive tactics, etc...


then I go on to talk about how the NT could be a bully in their own right,and possibly the head of a criminal enterprise. Whether all NTs on this board would do that, whether all NTs don't have feelings, I do not know, I do not claim to speak for any NT,because I don't know any NT, so people should not assume this is an attack on the NT community. I'm just providing options on how other types could use intimidation tactics. And since the OP is an INTJ, I think it's fair game to look at what the NT would do. I don't think using force or intimidation is regulated to one type though.


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree with @fourtines's reasoning. I have no idea why Ts are viewed as more intense than F types. I would argue it's the opposite - that F types are often more intense and reactive than T types, because after all, they have better control over their feelings and knowing when the right time to act on them would be than T types. I know a lot of intense Fs IRL - I know one INFJ who just punched some kid who was getting on her nerves in her neighborhood.


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## Brian1 (May 7, 2011)

I don't think Se naturally translates to bully, NFs could guilt trip others into doing something for a cause they espouse, if you don't you are morally a bad person, I know I was placed in this position many times, so I don't think its all one function or type, each type has their own methods:

Bullying arises, therefore, when someone feels that they are being bullied. In the police example above, whilst the driver felt 'bullied' by being told to take another route, the policeman simply felt he was discharging his duty, and would have refuted any charges of bullying. 
In the workplace, bullying can arise because: 


 people in authority do not actively listen to others, in order to find out how their use of power is being perceived by others - in particular, whether any hurt is being caused 
 people, in positions of power, do not have sufficient interpersonal skill to gain the consent of those with less power 
 attention is paid to what people say rather than effort being made to find out how they feel. 
 people, in positions without power, do not have sufficient assertiveness skill to communicate their hurt or lack of consent to those in authority. 
 miscommunications take place, which means that different people interpret behaviours and words in different ways 
 strong team cultures build up, where minority views are unwittingly marginalised, ridiculed or devalued. 
 assumptions are made that other people react, feel and think in the same way that we do. 
 There is no evidence to suggest that bullying is associated with personality type. However, type can contribute to misunderstandings that give rise to the feeling of being bullied. For example, differences in preferences can cause 

 Es, in their eagerness for interaction and progress, might seem to ride roughshod over the views of Is, who wish to spend more time in thought. 
 Is, in their desire to think things through, may seem to ignore the contributions of Es 
 Ns, in their desire to create and invent, may appear to devalue the contribution of Ss who prefer to operate in the realm of known experience 
 Ss, in wanting to implement solutions that experience shows will work, may seem unwillingly to entertain the alternative suggestions of Ns 
 Ts, in their pursuit of the objective truth, may seem to ignore people's feelings 
 Fs, in their desire to address the concerns of people who are laden down with worries, may seem to lack fairness and impartiality 
 Js may seem to impose inflexible structured methods on Ps 
 Ps may seem to throw away the carefully worked plans of Js 
Thoughts on Myers Briggs: Type and Bullying


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## JungyesMBTIno (Jul 22, 2011)

Come to think of it, I actually do know an ISFP from my neighborhood who used physical force/intimidation tactics on her "friends" before (she was pretty passive/aggressive).


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## firedell (Aug 5, 2009)

I dislike being referred to some kind of hippy who sits around naked with animals. I can be very cruel when I'm pissed about something. Yet on ocassion i can be malicious just because I feel like it.


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## MilkyWay132 (Jul 15, 2010)

I have to admit that the whole "hippy" thing makes the descriptions of Fi doms a little less relatable.. But I do think that if Se made someone aggressive, it wouldn't quite be Se alone but with some judging functions because Se by itself does not judge what 'good' or 'bad' actions to take.


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## nakkinaama (Jun 20, 2012)

I loathe NT bullies. Every bully in fact.


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## Bast (Mar 23, 2011)

I agree with all the others who have posted that Se likely has very little to do with bullying, and that any type can be a bully depending on external factors such as upbringing, etc. People who picked on me as a child or have been cruel to me as an adult certainly haven't all been one type / similar types.


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## AstralSoldier (Jun 18, 2012)

I try to rise above the bullshit that people indulge in; I usually get 'bored' with the 'routine' things people engage in so I generally just keep to myself, so I suppose if bullying were present, I wouldn't even care to stick around for it. I COMPLETELY HATE being taken away from what is important to me, so engaging in situations like this irritate me, and make me want to punch someone in the mouth until they're swallowing teeth.

I wasn't bullied much, more picked at, because I was quiet. I was a bully at one point because I felt I had to protect myself (much like MOST bullies think) and I do have a natural intimidating presence about me...I suppose the perpetually grave expression/impassiveness I have about me does that to people, but I don't recall being able to be too childish about things; I had to take the reigns of my life early on in life before I really knew HOW to do so, but being an Se inferior, I tend to 'scan' my environment for things like that. I don't think Se is a function that's inclined to do this alone, but I think this has more to do with the psychology of the person...most bullies were abused, insecure, or immature/deficient in some manner, so I don't think Se is an indicator of that particular behavior pattern as anyone could be abused, insecure, or immature...

I can say that I was guilty of forcing people to do things for me as needed, to serve my causes, or just to have around for 'reserved forces' when I didn't have the time or the opportunity to dirty my own hands...I learned that I was emotionally pretty persuasive and forceful when need be. Though I wasn't always seen with my 'INFJ' halo, I tried to be good to people for the majority of the time, and that earned me some good friends through out school. Even though however I was a good guy for the most part, I wasn't about to lye down and take some idiots BS either; 'Hero Mode' kicks in and I don't care WHO you think you are, you bleed just like me, and traumatizing you enough by all but breaking your face is a way to keep you roughly in the know of my grave hatred for morons who engage in behavior like that. I suppose I always was a 'protector of the underdog' though, and I thought that justified my ways at times, though even still it was wrong.


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