# Hyperactive Motormouthed Introvert!?



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

Am I an introvert or an extrovert? Do extraverts feel like their public persona is mostly a sham?

Almost everyone who knows me would categorize me as an extreme extravert. Maybe even my mom. They often laugh when I insist I'm an introvert, thinking I'm kidding them. I've always thought of my silly, hyper-active public self as a defense mechanism, a friendly shield to grease the wheels of social interaction. People don't realize how nervous I feel on the inside. But then I wondered, is that how extraverts feel too? Maybe I just like the idea of being an introvert, and am just an extraverted poseur. 

I work with kids and in retail, and so my job demands that sort of manic, people-oriented energy. So I sort of throw myself into it, and assume this wacky character. When you read Dr. Seuss to 100 kids and their parents in funny voices, and you jump up and down like a crazy person, people immediately think extravert. 

But when I am wearing a neutral expression at work, people think I'm sick or depressed or sleep-deprived. When really, that's closer to my normal. My coworkers tell me "I don't seem like myself" almost everyday, because once they see you spontaneously tap dance on a table, they think that's you all of the time. A guy I worked with today jokingly said that I seem like I'm on cocaine all the time.

However, when I have the power, I choose to be alone. I CAN socialize, and I enjoy it from time to time, but I never initiate. I only go out after I have turned down my friends' offers so many times I feel guilty. I even dread the prospect slightly. Why go out and risk having a bad time, when I know I will have a good time if I stay in and read? When I do finally go out, I have to psych myself up for it, like I'm going onstage. 

Socially, I can be very loud and outgoing. I often blurt out off-the-wall remarks, causing me to stick my foot in my mouth, but usually in a relatively harmless, silly way. I have been called a motormouth more than a few times. Personally, I think I'm so hyper just because I'm (A) extremely anxious and (B) haven't socialized in so long that its built up pressure. If I went out every night there is no way I could sustain that level of energy.

As a child, I just had a hard time making friends, and so I slowly developed this goofy persona to make people like me more. It makes social situations and public speaking a lot easier when you hide behind this upbeat, jokey persona. I find when you say nothing and look neutral, people project the worst on to you, so I learned to give them a friendly exterior. 

To my closest friends I'm more of a one-on-one confidante than a guy you party with.

Anyway, 

What do YOU think? 

I think I'm probably sticking with introvert one way or another, but I'm curious if maybe I've misunderstood what extraversion is.


----------



## Lanced Jack (Mar 24, 2013)

You are basically a sociopath babe :3 

(maybe you could summarize your post a little bit babe)


----------



## milti (Feb 8, 2012)

Stanislas said:


> Am I an introvert or an extrovert? Do extraverts feel like their public persona is mostly a sham?
> 
> Almost everyone who knows me would categorize me as an extreme extravert. Maybe even my mom. They often laugh when I insist I'm an introvert, thinking I'm kidding them. I've always thought of my silly, hyper-active public self as a defense mechanism, a friendly shield to grease the wheels of social interaction. People don't realize how nervous I feel on the inside. But then I wondered, is that how extraverts feel too? Maybe I just like the idea of being an introvert, and am just an extraverted poseur.
> 
> ...


I totally relate with this.

Okay, so I don't tap dance on tables. But I love interacting with kids and specifically (for that reason) sought out work at a school. I can NOT stop talking. I make people laugh. And I laugh at everything. I love the prospect of a good time with my close friends. I like posing for camera pictures. I spend most of my time putting on my "extrovert" mask and simultaneously wondering when I can get to go home and curl up with a book. Nobody who knows me would call me quiet. I'm very loud, and very talkative.

I seriously don't know which I am either.


----------



## KSKatze (Nov 15, 2012)

I have the same thing- i am and always have been an introvert, but when i'm around a group of people i'm comfortable with i'm hyper, witty, entertaining and a bit crazy. Same as you, one of my best friends was shocked when i said i was an introvert, but then again my dad would probably laugh if i said i was an extrovert. I think that how you interact with others isn't purely to do with I vs E. For example i think my Fe function causes me to extrovert my feelings and emotions.

What do you tend to type as?


----------



## somoo906 (Mar 17, 2013)

It shows that you are not a shy introvert, introverts can have the social skills just as any extrovert or can even be better however the only difference is they can last a lot longer and our energy will deplete as we are interacting with people , no matter how good the friend is or the conversation, we introverts can't or else we will feel that our precious energy to do things will be sucked out of us. I used to be shy but over time i have slowly learnt to overcome my shyness and have found my self socializing more than i used to in the past, starting going out more with friends, etc however after each time i finish and it's time to get back to my usual business, i would feel the need to get away so that i can "recharge my self". Anyone who is shy can overcome it if you want however introversion will always be something that was hardwired into you, it will always be a part of the person. It's fine as it is, in fact i see it as a blessing. It is a blessing that is perhaps in disguise.


----------



## Ellis Bell (Mar 16, 2012)

What happens at the end of the day, after you've done that "manic, people-oriented" thing? Do you see your down time as a chance to recharge or feel relieved when your day of socialization is done?


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the great answers guys, I think I'm stickin' with introversion, your comments and questions have only reinforced my initial opinion. Still, I had those lingering doubts!



Lanced Jack said:


> You are basically a sociopath babe :3
> 
> (maybe you could summarize your post a little bit babe)


Okay babe. Basically: People think I am extremely extraverted because I often act as though I am. And if I am capable of such displays of extreme extraversion, am I really an introvert? Maybe I am just confusing being an extravert with a strong inner life for introversion. Personally I feel like my public self is just mask I use to cope.



milti said:


> I totally relate with this.
> 
> Okay, so I don't tap dance on tables. But I love interacting with kids and specifically (for that reason) sought out work at a school. I can NOT stop talking. I make people laugh. And I laugh at everything. I love the prospect of a good time with my close friends. I like posing for camera pictures. I spend most of my time putting on my "extrovert" mask and simultaneously wondering when I can get to go home and curl up with a book. Nobody who knows me would call me quiet. I'm very loud, and very talkative.
> 
> I seriously don't know which I am either.


Nice to meet a fellow introvert in disguise (or a fellow extraverted recluse) :tongue:




KSKatze said:


> I have the same thing- i am and always have been an introvert, but when i'm around a group of people i'm comfortable with i'm hyper, witty, entertaining and a bit crazy. Same as you, one of my best friends was shocked when i said i was an introvert, but then again my dad would probably laugh if i said i was an extrovert. *I think that how you interact with others isn't purely to do with I vs E. For example i think my Fe function causes me to extrovert my feelings and emotions.*
> 
> What do you tend to type as?


I'm glad you get that too!

Also, I think there's something to the stuff I bolded. What confuses me is how I can express that side of myself so frequently and so dramatically that it begins eclipsing my true personality. 

I tend to type as INFP/ENFP.

I think I am an INFP, but sometimes I feel like I can't be, because no one seems to recognize who I am. Still, I know me better than anyone else.

I'm just worried that external influences have convinced me that introversion is cooler and more special, and that is making me deny my "true" ENFP nature.



somoo906 said:


> It shows that you are not a shy introvert, introverts can have the social skills just as any extrovert or can even be better however the only difference is they can last a lot longer and our energy will deplete as we are interacting with people , no matter how good the friend is or the conversation, we introverts can't or else we will feel that our precious energy to do things will be sucked out of us. I used to be shy but over time i have slowly learnt to overcome my shyness and have found my self socializing more than i used to in the past, starting going out more with friends, etc however after each time i finish and it's time to get back to my usual business, i would feel the need to get away so that i can "recharge my self". Anyone who is shy can overcome it if you want however introversion will always be something that was hardwired into you, it will always be a part of the person. It's fine as it is, in fact i see it as a blessing. It is a blessing that is perhaps in disguise.



Thanks! I think you're right. I have to start thinking of it like the blessing it is. Social introverts enjoy the best of both worlds!



Ellis Bell said:


> What happens at the end of the day, after you've done that "manic, people-oriented" thing? Do you see your down time as a chance to recharge or feel relieved when your day of socialization is done?


Yeah, I usually go home, collapse on my bed and recharge. That reminds me of when I was little: I would get home from school at the end of the week, and I'd go straight to my room. My mother was under strict instructions to turn away any visitors who came to see me. 

I just wasn't sure if extraverts do that too. Surely they must get home from work and feel tired and just plop down on the sofa or something?


----------



## Lanced Jack (Mar 24, 2013)

Stanislas said:


> Thanks for all the great answers guys, I think I'm stickin' with introversion, your comments and questions have only reinforced my initial opinion. Still, I had those lingering doubts!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jeez, the way you make it sound, I would guess you were abused as a kid or something.

I'm very sanguine myself, though I love reading and alone time.


----------



## penny lane (Nov 21, 2011)

I can have my chatty moments too. There are people who have limited interaction with me that would never guess I'm an introvert.Given the choice I like my space.Too much interaction drains me.

Same with extroverts that don't need constant interaction with people.


----------



## zerocrossing (Jul 6, 2011)

One thing to be aware of: Ne-doms often think themselves social introverts because they need time to process the barrage coming in from Ne.

Find out whether you are Fi-dom or Ne-dom and you will find out whether you are an introverted or extroverted NFP.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Stanislas said:


> Am I an introvert or an extrovert? Do extraverts feel like their public persona is mostly a sham?
> 
> Almost everyone who knows me would categorize me as an extreme extravert. Maybe even my mom. They often laugh when I insist I'm an introvert, thinking I'm kidding them. I've always thought of my silly, hyper-active public self as a defense mechanism, a friendly shield to grease the wheels of social interaction. People don't realize how nervous I feel on the inside. But then I wondered, is that how extraverts feel too? Maybe I just like the idea of being an introvert, and am just an extraverted poseur.
> 
> ...


This seems pretty consistent with introversion in a cognitive context. This in particular:



> When I do finally go out, I have to psych myself up for it, like I'm going onstage.


I am the same way. I am the life of the party and when I am social, I am very frenetic and engaging. I don't know if I tap-dance on tables, but if I see a table and it looks like it's in need of a good old fashioned tap dancing, I shall not abjure. Interestingly, I've always thought of this as a way to control that socialization. If I am passive socially, the conversation will inevitably turn to small talk and things I find super super draining. Instead, I force the situation into some semblance of Ne, which usually requires that I am able to cow the crowd by captivating them. I am, in essence, on stage.

I could not hope to do that day to day. It's not that it's draining, per se. If it goes well, I find it rather invigorating. Then, I won't socialize again for a week or a month. Which takes effort? Which is forced? Which is my 'default' state? Also, and most importantly if you ask me, which do I do in a measured and controlled way? Which is the behavior that is more mature?

For me, Ti on all points. No one who knows me at all thinks I am an extravert... but people who saw me at a party would laugh if I said I was an introvert. 

Here is another question.... what about a social situation that you have no expectation for or control over... what about a truly impromptu situation with people you haven't sized up and can't turn into your 'audience'? What do you do? Is it natural and mature?


----------



## electricky (Feb 18, 2011)

It sure is possible to be a motormouth introvert.... take that from an extravert who gets regularly bugged about how I don't talk enough. 

Though it is also possible that you are an extravert who is oblivious as to how much they are really not like introverts. 

To know which one you are you may either "just know" or study cognitive functions and get a reading on which cognitive pattern of the types fits best for you.


----------



## PaladinX (Feb 20, 2013)

Extravert/Introvert does not necessarily mean outgoing or reserved.

When in doubt between E or I, you are more likely I.

It's not so much about what you _can_ do, as it is about what you do _naturally_.

I have an 2 INFP friends that you'd swear they were extraverted. They prefer their alone time though.

INFPs are really good listeners and very engaged when in conversation.


----------



## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

my "self' essentially is a sham so yes lol.

l would have given you more possible introvert cred, but since you said "extreme" extravert l dno't really think it's the case.

lt's quite common for ENFPs to feel more introverted than other extraverts. An INFP may able to keep up an extreme extravert image for awhile but that's taxing on some ENFPs, let alone INFPs.

l would also consider what people are saying about not believing you. l'm not saying anyone knows me better than l know myself, but most people don't buy me as being someone who wants a lot of alone time if they know me in my extraverted mode. lf they knew me outside of that, the may not believe l could appear as an extravert.

So there is a definite shift for me, though l don't really try to live to an extreme extravert image anymore. Too exhausting and the benefits are not intriguing enough for me but l am ENXP.

Also what zerocrossing said, with xNxP the e/i can sometimes be so hard to gauge that you might as well go with what you think you "know" is true of yourself, but also figure out if you are Ne or Fi dom.

My unofficial and completely unreliable test that you may use should you choose to do so, was to frequent both INTP and ENTP forums while gauging who l felt was more annoyed or drained by me.

And a few other subforums, l'd have to say that l concluded that l was somewhat taxing on INxPs and that is probably due to the manic energy from dominant Ne. lt's also consistent with the introverts l've known in real life.


----------



## FlightsOfFancy (Dec 30, 2012)

I've known INXJs especially not to shut the fuck up and/or notice no one cares as long as they see a moral/logical cause in sight so yeah it's possible.


----------



## Faballion (Apr 6, 2013)

As far as I understand this, its not whether you are "outgoing" or "shy" but rather how you feel around people. Is it draining you more than it's energizing you? Everyone has to socialize and everyone has to spend time alone (that's a given) but which are you more comfortable with?


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

Wow! Even more answers! Thanks guys, to be honest I had sort of settled on introvert with my last post, but I thought you guys added some very interesting stuff, so I decided to address some of it.



arkigos said:


> I am the same way. I am the life of the party and when I am social, I am very frenetic and engaging...Interestingly, I've always thought of this as a way to control that socialization. If I am passive socially, the conversation will inevitably turn to small talk and things I find super super draining. Instead, I force the situation into some semblance of Ne, which usually requires that I am able to cow the crowd by captivating them. I am, in essence, on stage.


I relate to this quite a bit. I think a lot of introverts want to communicate, they just have a higher need to do it on their own terms, so it makes sense we might do something like this.



> I could not hope to do that day to day. It's not that it's draining, per se. If it goes well, I find it rather invigorating. Then, I won't socialize again for a week or a month. Which takes effort? Which is forced? Which is my 'default' state? Also, and most importantly if you ask me, which do I do in a measured and controlled way? Which is the behavior that is more mature?
> 
> For me, Ti on all points. No one who knows me at all thinks I am an extravert... but people who saw me at a party would laugh if I said I was an introvert.


Interesting point, that’s a good way to look at it. Personally, my default is definitely Fi. Ne is me when I am trying, I am pushing. And even when Ne is doing a bunch of stuff, and he looks like he’s the main guy, most of what he’s doing is for Fi’s purposes. He’s running around getting Fi his latte, taking his phone calls, etc. Ne is also my bodyguard. I often use Ne as an emotional barrier, a silly mask for my feelings, whatever. Ne makes sure Fi gets the space he needs, makes sure he’s comfortable.



> Here is another question.... what about a social situation that you have no expectation for or control over... what about a truly impromptu situation with people you haven't sized up and can't turn into your 'audience'? What do you do? Is it natural and mature?


I hate not knowing what to expect, so I usually start out very conservatively, and leave the metaphorical (and sometimes literal) car running outside in case I need to make a quick getaway.

I think it’s important to look at warm-up time with introverts. We take longer to get comfortable. I usually stick to a very safe script at first. Then I’ll peek my head out a little with a joke, to sort of get a feel for the room. If the feedback is negative, I’ll pop my head back in and I might never come out again. But if the feedback is positive, I’ll put myself out there a little further. If things keep going well, I can really get on a roll, to the point where I probably seem like a maniac, I’m riffing off of everything and I’m just crackling with energy. And after they see you in full flight, they tend to forget about the timid guy you were before. The thing about introverts is that we don’t have great acceleration, but all that shit we have under the hood allows us to reach a higher top speed, if you know what I mean (my second car metaphor in one post, huh!).



PaladinX said:


> I have an 2 INFP friends that you'd swear they were extraverted. They prefer their alone time though.
> 
> INFPs are really good listeners and very engaged when in conversation.


That’s true. Your point reminds me of a passage from Lenore Thomson’s Personality Type: An Owner’s Manual where she describes INFP’s appearing extraverted to others:



> They’re often wry, and if they’re comfortable, they’ll contribute a running patter of perceptive remarks and observations. Thus, it surprises people when the INFP abruptly winds down and wants to be alone


I am a big fan of Fiona Apple (an INFP if there ever was one), so I consume a lot of her interviews, and even though she is extremely stormy and reclusive, she can act REALLY Ne-ish and funny at times.



OMG WTF BRO said:


> my "self' essentially is a sham so yes lol.


I lol’d.



> l would also consider what people are saying about not believing you. l'm not saying anyone knows me better than l know myself, but most people don't buy me as being someone who wants a lot of alone time if they know me in my extraverted mode. lf they knew me outside of that, the may not believe l could appear as an extravert.


I have 3 very close friends (ISTJ, INTP, ENFP), and they all think I’m introverted. My INTP friend said I’m like an introvert in extravert’s clothing. They don’t know anything about typology beyond that dichotomy though, so I don’t really press them for answers.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions everyone!


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@Stanislas - I watched a few interviews with Ms. Apple and I'd suggest that she is an Ni user, rather than Ne. Possibly an xNFJ or an ISFP. Ni/Se is, in my estimation, often manifest as diving deep into abstract to pull truths back into reality and splatter them in our faces, to cause real impact. Fiona seemed to show this process again and again in interviews. 'I looked deep behind the veil, saw something, and translated it into art.' It just occurred to me that it's kinda like that kid in the Shining, LOL. He is a medium and sees in his way the truth of things that no one else can see, but can only translate it back as some undecipherable code: REDRUM! Maybe not a great example, but the point is that there is a deeper truth and it becomes art, or whatever. 

Interestingly, and significantly, I have not observed xNFP as being indicative of this process at all. Rather, reaches blindly past the veil and pulls out a possible truth, a whimsical truth, often called 'hypothesis' or 'idea' and then shove it onto the table to be picked over by Ji... the desecration and dissection of that truth to produce some ambiguous perspective or value is the goal, and we slop on other truths as they come to us (blindly snatched from beyond the veil) and sew them into the carcass of the last truth.... until an abomination comes to life. Typically quite abominable, we let it kill a few villagers before setting it alight and going back to work on another. 

On the surface these two processes can have similar results and be seen as similar things... but, when you get into it, they are not. Sometimes, when I am trying to type a celebrity, I imagine talking to them. Would they want to banter ideas with me, taking them on and wearing them as if they were true to fuel hypothetical discussion? Or, would they scrutinize and introvert this process... wanting only to marry those ideals which they themselves 'see' or have connected internally. 

It sounds to me like Fiona determined her truths carefully and alone, grasping for deeper meaning in the myriad perspectives of reality flitting through her mind... I don't really know, at all, but that is the feeling I get from my glancing observations. I am guessing ISFP, but INFJ is certainly on the table for her. It seems like Fi is stronger for her. Fi/Ni is how she comes across. Se seems more implicit, but I could argue for it's presence. I don't know, that was a bit of a tangent, yeah?

For me, a great way to tell an Ni from Ne musician is if they are asked the meaning of a song. Ni will reach deep almost as if they are viewing something... they will flail for the perfect words to describe the indescribable. Ultimately, they see something. A vision. Ne will abjure strong meaning association (they will also not deny it, which is also Ni, I think) but rather talk about how they feel about it or try to frame it for the hearer so that the hearer can reach their own conclusions. I guess an Ni might refuse to express the meaning of something on principle... but Ni will psychologically, compulsively avoid it, rather than just being coy. 

You get people like Kurt Cobain and Rivers Cuomo... check out how they are in interviews, comparatively. It's interesting. 

Just my theory, of course, to keep ya on your toes if I can.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Stanislas said:


> Am I an introvert or an extrovert? Do extraverts feel like their public persona is mostly a sham?
> Almost everyone who knows me would categorize me as an extreme extravert. Maybe even my mom. They often laugh when I insist I'm an introvert, thinking I'm kidding them. I've always thought of my silly, hyper-active public self as a defense mechanism, a friendly shield to grease the wheels of social interaction. People don't realize how nervous I feel on the inside. But then I wondered, is that how extraverts feel too? Maybe I just like the idea of being an introvert, and am just an extraverted poseur.
> I work with kids and in retail, and so my job demands that sort of manic, people-oriented energy. So I sort of throw myself into it, and assume this wacky character. When you read Dr. Seuss to 100 kids and their parents in funny voices, and you jump up and down like a crazy person, people immediately think extravert.
> But when I am wearing a neutral expression at work, people think I'm sick or depressed or sleep-deprived. When really, that's closer to my normal. My coworkers tell me "I don't seem like myself" almost everyday, because once they see you spontaneously tap dance on a table, they think that's you all of the time. A guy I worked with today jokingly said that I seem like I'm on cocaine all the time.
> ...


there are plenty of motormouth introverts on this forum. they're called ENFPs =)


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

That’s an interesting argument @_arkigos_. I appreciate you trying to keep me on my toes, but I dunno if I can buy Fiona as anything but an INFP. At the very least she is a Fi-dom. I can sort of deal with your ISFP analysis, but I think it’s pretty safe to rule out INFJ. Anyway, I won’t bother responding point by point (because I suck at that) and I probably won’t even bother trying to disprove you, but I will make my own case for INFP, and we can go from there.



Here is her infamous VMA speech, which SCREEEAMS Fi:






She recently said in an interview:



> Categories are gibberish to me. I understand-- it helps people organize their thoughts. But you can't go too far with it.


Here are a few super Fi lyrics I picked out listening to her latest album:



> My woes are granular





> I’m amorous but out of reach, a still life drawing of a peach.





> I just wanna feel everything.





> How can I ask anyone to love me, when all I do is beg to be left alone?


And finally, if there is any doubt left, read this letter she handwrote and posted on the internet, explaining why she is cancelling her tour in South America (her dog is dying):



> _ It's 6pm on Friday, and I'm writing to a few thousand friends I have not met yet._
> _I am writing to ask them to change our plans and meet a little while later._
> 
> _Here's the thing._
> ...


If you managed to overcome the tl;dr nature of that letter, I'll give you a moment to dab your eyes with a kleenex before I keep going. I'd offer analyses, but I think all of the stuff I have shown you so far is self-evident. Fiona Apple is just so vibrantly, vividly herself, that she gives us a pretty clear view into her character. Surely we can agree on Fi-dominance by now, right? Maybe you disagree, but I just can't see how.

Okay, now to contrast the difference between how an ISFP and an INFP express themselves. INFP musicians tend to focus more on metaphors, and meaning through their lyrics. They usually try to communicate with the listener in an abstract/conceptual sort of way. Meanwhile ISFP’s aren’t so worried about their lyrics “meaning something” per se, it’s more about creating an atmosphere with the words, it’s about them sounding good. They are focusing on the sensory impression of the song.

If you want to investigate this further, here is a pretty good thread on this site dealing with this issue:
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/13389-difference-between-isfp-infp-lyric-writing.html

I don't have any particular posts in mind, but I do direct you to read what @_OrangeAppled_ has to say on that topic, she is great at defining what it means to be INFP, IMO.

Fiona often says in interviews her songs are basically essays/speeches/letters, and that she is trying to explain herself to the listener. Her lyrics have a real literary quality and she once cited her biggest influence as Maya Angelou. Apple also loves, Loves, LOVES metaphors and similes:



> My feel for you, boy/ Is decaying right in front of me/ Like the carrion of a murdered prey.





> I could liken you to a werewolf the way you left me for dead,
> But I admit that I provided a full moon.
> And I could liken you to a shark the way you bit off my head,
> But then again I was waving around a bleeding, open wound.





> _I ran out of white dove feathers__, _To _soak_ up the hot piss that comes through your mouth, every time you address me.


I swear to God I didn’t do this in purpose, but now that I look over it's impossible to ignore. Look at how jarring the metaphors are in terms of the senses. This is not a sensor’s view of the world, these are uncomfortable, frightening images of an intuitive haunted by their repressed sensing function. A lot of intuitive artists have an odd relationship with the physical realm (Joyce’s fart obsession, Quentin Tarantino’s fixation on violence and feet, Balzac being a generally disgusting person, etc). Again, that’s not always the case, but for me it’s a good hint that someone’s perception function is N.

Anyway, back to the obsession with metaphors. Here’s a very Ne quote I transcribed from Fiona’s interview on the WTF podcast with Marc Maron:



> Everything is the same. It’s like everything is a fractal. You can compare everything to everything. I’m always looking for how something relates to…for me it’s like wondering how does the making of a bookcase relate to what happened with me and my boyfriend…That’s why metaphors are so satisfying.


Even her album titles are very literary and metaphorical. The full title of her 1999 album “When the Pawn…” is a poem that contains 400 characters of text. Her latest album title: “The Idler Wheel Is Wiser Than the Driver of the Screw and Whipping Cords Will Serve You More Than Ropes Will Ever Do” is also a metaphor/poem, although I forget her explanation. The 2005 album title “Extraordinary Machine” is a metaphor for herself and her ability to alchemize negative experiences into something positive.

Meanwhile, an ISFP musician like Bob Dylan practically had to scream: THERE IS NO GRAND MESSAGE TO MY LYRICS! I’m a musician goddamnit! The lyrics are almost just another instrument, they have a hypnotic sound to them. Even though he is one of the most brilliant and surreal lyricists of all-time, it’s more about creating an atmosphere with Bob rather than waxing philosophical. It’s not about the words making sense most of the time, he’s creating images that evoke a feeling inside of you.



> Darkness at the break of noon
> Shadows even the silver spoon
> The handmade blade, the child’s balloon
> Eclipses both the sun and moon
> ...


Great lyrics, but even Bob would tell you it’s no good dissecting that.

Anyway, I’m tiring myself out, it has taken a long time to string all of this stuff together, and I probably could do a better job, but I’m posting on a forum, not writing a dissertation, so you’ll have to forgive me. Hopefully I have made a strong enough case to convince you she uses Ne instead of Se. On that final note, here is an amusing video of her, that I think displays her Ne-ish sense of humour.







I know that was super tl;dr, but Fiona Apple inspires me to verbosity!


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

@_Stanislas_ - Yeah, I apparently watched crap interviews. I actually think I watched ones that were too old.. she was too young, I guess. Anyway, I was super wrong. I am surprised I don't like her lyrics more, which was a big hang up for me. I think it's pretty clear from her interviews, though I am going to need to check this with some of my ENFP compatriots... that she is, in fact, an ENFP.

I think her Ne is stronger than Fi... I also think that her Te shows up a lot. I think the problem I was having syncing her up with INFPs was genuine... I still don't think she is one. But, yes, after watching way too many interviews with her, focusing on newer ones, I am fairly well convinced of Ne-dom. 

She has an anxiety disorder, probably not terribly uncommon in ENFPs, I am sad to say. She strikes me as an 'ambivert' in the ENFP sense of the word. But, those terms are worthless. Ne is what it is... and extraverted as it may be, it is still stuck in the imagination. It is off somewhere else, but just yearns to share what it sees as it sees it. I guess you can call that ambivert? It's a gross simplification, but it works.

If she really is an ENFP, that is great! She'd be the only one† I am explicitly aware of.

† Famous musician, that is... but actually, I think Marilyn Manson is as well, so I take that back. Still, it's cool, if true. (He has nothing on her for Ne dom, though... she is running circles around him).

EDIT: ENFPs reporting as ambiverts is serious stuff. It's because, as I said, Ne doesn't have a place in many conversations - and often leads the user to suppress it to avoid awkward situations or embarrassment. It's not that ENFPs don't want sociality - they just want Ne sociality... and even then it seems all ENFPs have to introspect for a time before they can get back out there and engage. My wife is an ENFP, and this is very true of her. I don't think she would describe her sociality as forced, however, or as being on a stage... though I do have an anecdote of an ENFP I once knew, and we were both living in a big group of... well, not Ne. He was a total clown and was always trying to engage them with antics... like, eating a salamander or something. But, once the salamander was eaten and the energy subsided, they didn't have anything to say to him and he nothing to say to them. It was done. He really, rather naively, wanted to connect with them but Ne is by no means universal extraversion small-talk fun. It's not. It's weighty and abstract and agile and most people can't begin to follow it... or even want to, really. It sucks. I think that, too, contributes to the 'ambivert' thing.


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

arkigos said:


> @_Stanislas_ - Yeah, I apparently watched crap interviews. I actually think I watched ones that were too old.. she was too young, I guess. Anyway, I was super wrong. I am surprised I don't like her lyrics more, which was a big hang up for me. I think it's pretty clear from her interviews, though I am going to need to check this with some of my ENFP compatriots... that she is, in fact, an ENFP.


She's not a Ne-dom dude. For crying out loud, it's right in her name, Fi-ona!:tongue:

Ne-doms are all about realizing new possibilities for their own sake. Ne-doms crave novelty, the unfamiliar, and finding patterns in the outside world to help them see what is coming, what has potential. Routine is the death of them.

Fiona gets stuck in ruts big time. She has many obsessive cleaning/eating rituals. In a NY Times interview it was revealed that, when she got frustrated with her record label,



> She started to climb a hill for eight hours a day, day after day, until she could barely walk, until she was limping, and then until she could not walk at all. Her knees required months of therapy. “Something about that was a rite of passage,” she said. “I think it’s really healthy to lose things or to give things up for a while, to deprive yourself of certain things. It’s always a good learning experience, because I felt like it really was like, ‘I must learn to walk again.’ I had to walk out all that stuff, and I knew it was stupid, and I kept on walking.”


This strikes me as some crazy Fi-Si looping, and the whole deprivation/ascetic thing is pretty common to INFP's. 



> I also think that her Te shows up a lot. I think the problem I was having syncing her up with INFPs was genuine... I still don't think she is one. But, yes, after watching way too many interviews with her, focusing on newer ones, I am fairly well convinced of Ne-dom.


I actually think Te can appear even more prominent in INFP's than ENFP's, because the inferior is usually very noticeable in people, in the ways it expresses itself in a dark, unconscious, uncontrollable way. And I think the reason you notice her Ne more in recent interviews, is just her personal growth and increased comfort with extraversion. She's in her 30s now, and her early interviews were late adolescence/early adulthood, so it makes sense that her aux. function would become more prominent with time. 



> She has an anxiety disorder, probably not terribly uncommon in ENFPs, I am sad to say.


Nor is it uncommon in INFP's...in fact it might even be more common, but I don't know about that for sure. 



> She strikes me as an 'ambivert' in the ENFP sense of the word. But, those terms are worthless. Ne is what it is... and extraverted as it may be, it is still stuck in the imagination. It is off somewhere else, but just yearns to share what it sees as it sees it. I guess you can call that ambivert? It's a gross simplification, but it works.


I really don't think she's an ambivert. I'll get into it a little farther down though. I mean, EVERYONE is ambiverted in one way or another, Jung once explained his descriptions of introverts/extraverts were extreme and there is no such thing as a pure introvert/extravert. But I think Fiona definitely falls on the introverted end of the spectrum.

I know she uses Ne well, but ability does not equal function preference. Look at how she uses it. She's using Ne to serve her Fi. She uses Ne to express/clarify her values and feelings. She uses it to make people understand who she REALLY is and to connect with people on her own terms. Dominant functions aren't servants to their auxilary.



> EDIT: ENFPs reporting as ambiverts is serious stuff. It's because, as I said, Ne doesn't have a place in many conversations - and often leads the user to suppress it to avoid awkward situations or embarrassment. It's not that ENFPs don't want sociality - they just want Ne sociality... and even then it seems all ENFPs have to introspect for a time before they can get back out there and engage. My wife is an ENFP, and this is very true of her. I don't think she would describe her sociality as forced, however, or as being on a stage... though I do have an anecdote of an ENFP I once knew, and we were both living in a big group of... well, not Ne. He was a total clown and was always trying to engage them with antics... like, eating a salamander or something. But, once the salamander was eaten and the energy subsided, they didn't have anything to say to him and he nothing to say to them. It was done. He really, rather naively, wanted to connect with them but Ne is by no means universal extraversion small-talk fun. It's not. It's weighty and abstract and agile and most people can't begin to follow it... or even want to, really. It sucks. I think that, too, contributes to the 'ambivert' thing.


I think that's an interesting point, and important to note about ENFP's, but I also think Ne users are pretty creative and are good at finding ways to relate to people, even if it's not in a way that's as abstract and fast-paced as they want. I also think ENFP's have a great deal of variance in this respect. Some are extremely extraverted and charming, and some are borderline introverts, who are clumsy. 

I think what's tripping you up is that it's harder to see Fi than Ne in something like a showbiz interview. Ne is a very noticeable function, very easy to spot. Fi, not so much, especially because INFP's often use Ne as a shield/mask. Unlike Ne, Fi doesn't lend itself to verbal expression.

I have gathered some more quotes for you, in an effort to highlight the expressions of her introversion.

On going out in public:



> * Pitchfork: Have you been especially reclusive since you put out Extraordinary Machine seven years ago?*
> FA: I'd say that I've been reclusive the last 34 years…Anytime I go out, it is just something to deal with, even walking to the grocery store. If I'm supposed to go from one place to another place that isn't that comfortable, I usually don't go.


In her interview with Craig Ferguson:



> I hardly ever leave my house or my neighborhood. It sounds like a sad thing, but it’s not. I got my handful of friends, and my handful of places I like to go, and that’s really enough for me


These quotes seem like the quintessence of a strong Fi-Si axis to me. I should add that INFP’s who rely too much on their introverted side, won’t open themselves up to anything that isn’t comfortable. As Lenore Thomson wrote of INFP’s:



> They turn to introverted sensation…to keep their values intact. They literally avoid situations that don’t accord with their primary self-experience…Introverted Sensation…turns their ideals into an external value system that defines some situations as congenial to their needs and others not, leaving them no choice but to stay out of the ones that are not


Fiona often talks about not liking surprise, and how she reacts negatively to it:



> I didn't realize that the wonderful Paul F. Tompkins would be hosting and doing comedy between songs. He came up and started to try to joke around with me, and I said, "I don't do that," which sounds so bitchy. But it just came out. I meant to say, "I don't know how to do that and I didn't know we were going to be funny." And that just hurt for weeks because I felt rude. It doesn't sound like much, but I felt so embarrassed.


This does not seem like an episode an ENFP would describe. Even if they are anxious people, they are usually really good at rolling with the punches in those kinds of situations, and if they did, they probably wouldn’t dwell on it as intensely as she did.

Anyway, here are some more good Fi quotes:



> It pisses me off to think that we're conditioned to push away bad feelings and to think that anything that's uncomfortable is something to be avoided. When things are really bad nowadays, I recognize the value in it because it's me filling my quota-- it's going to make my joy more intense later.





> I told them, 'I'll only stay until eight if you show my feet in the magazine so that other girls can see my bunions and not feel bad about theirs". "All of a sudden, they didn't need me until eight anymore.


I got this next one from the celebrity types site, where they list her as INFP, *nudge* :tongue:



> "[I didn't like the fact that representatives from Sony Music wanted to okay my tracks because] then they're in on the songwriting. And if I start doing that, then I'm dead."





> I'm probably missing out, but I don't want to know what everybody else is doing. Nobody is strong enough to not be influenced. And I don't mean influenced by copying-- I'd be influenced because I _wouldn't_ want to do what someone else is doing. I want to be able to do whatever I feel like doing and not worry about anything.





> Everybody is completely different. Some people are way over on this side of the spectrum, some are on the other side, and some are crossed in certain ways. John is John. Joey is Joey.





> I’ll always go for being alone, before I’ll go for going out or doing anything, I won’t talk on the phone, I won’t do anything.


Relating to the quote directly above me: I forget where exactly, but I remember she once described how she doesn’t talk to anyone or socialize the day of shows, because then she’ll have no energy for being in front of a lot of people. Anyway, back to the quotes…

Fiona on making her first record:



> I was gonna be able to walk into a room and not be so shy, because everyone would know what kind of person I am, and how I’m feeling inside.


That seems like a very INFP thing to think and want, don’t you agree? But we see as she gets older, she is starting to develop her tertiary Si along with that Fi we saw above:



> I don’t have that need for the world to understand me anymore. Everything I’m doing is just as a way to gauge how much I’ve grown. I like doing the same thing I did 10 years ago, and seeing how much more joy I can get from things, and how I’m much more at ease with myself I am, there are all these little rulers by which I can measure my progress.


Not considering the external success/response and focusing on personal growth, and how her personal experiences of doing things she used to have changed, seems like an incredibly Fi-Si thing to me.

Anyway, I've done just about all I can do to make my case, I really didn't expect you to resist INFP so much, that's kind of the consensus typing on her, but I like that you didn't just bow to it because that seems like what everyone thinks. I acknowledge it's POSSIBLE she's just a super shy and anxious ENFP, but for me, Fiona Apple just seems so Fi. But if you're geeting a different read that's fine, it's pretty hard to prove and definitively determine what a celebrity type is anyway. At the end of the day, it's just speculation, and I really enjoy speculating with people. I have said my piece (and then some). roud:


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

IDK what this thread is about but Fiona Apple is super obviously INFP. She is not a very mentally/emotionally healthy person though. If you think in terms of inferiors, TeSi is obvious also. I don't even know why Ne-dom would be an option for her....?


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> IDK what this thread is about but Fiona Apple is super obviously INFP. She is not a very mentally/emotionally healthy person though. If you think in terms of inferiors, TeSi is obvious also. I don't even know why Ne-dom would be an option for her....?


Yeah the thread wasn't about her at all, but I offhandedly used her as an example for the quintessential INFP, and @_arkigos_ thought she seemed more Ni than Ne, and therefore more likely an ISFP or an INFJ. So I spent the first super long post convincing him she used Ne, and then I convinced him so thoroughly (I assume) he thought it was her dominant function. 

Now I'm trying to remind him Fiona is introverted, very introverted at that. I never expected so much opposition when I used her as an example, I thought I was referencing someone who we all could agree was INFP. But I couldn't resist an in-depth discussion on Fiona, I find her very interesting. 

And yes, good catch on the TeSi.


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

^ She's a good example of an e4 INFP, yeah. Robert Smith of The Cure & Johnny Depp are other good pop culture examples of e4 INFP, IMO. Audrey Hepburn is a good example of e9 INFP. I'm trying to think of other e9 INFPs but most Fi-dom 9s I can think of offhand are ISFP... Most Fi-dom people encounter in person are likely e9, IMO, so that may be why they have trouble seeing someone like Fiona as INFP. They may think INFPs are really soft & easy-going & "whimsical" as opposed to fiery, intense & "abstract". 

An e4 ENFP would be Shirley Manson of Garage or Patti Smith (sometimes typed 5, but I think probably 4w5). The difference can seem subtle with ENFP & INFP when they're 4s. 

I tend to think if you aren't sure if you're I/E and you're a 4, then you're probably an E, just because 4s are a withdrawn type so an introverted 4 is pretty obvious, IMO. Although I think some stereotypes about INFPs based on the e9 can confuse e4 iNFPs about type (and I've seen stereotypes about INFPs based on e4 confuse e9 INFPs). I usually hear INFP e4s just say they're not all that nicey-nice, accommodating or conflict-avoidant. INFP e9s usually say they're not all that depressive or temperamental.

But you're talking about being _outgoing_, which suggest ENFP a bit more. However, you also seem to suggest you are acting & taking on a character, which may be an introvert experience of "being outgoing". Introverts tend to feel like "no one knows the real me". But I do think external feedback is significant; sometimes we have a persona which doesn't let us see our ego. I think I used to test as a Thinking type a lot because of that.

Have you read Lenore Thompson yet? She has a good couple of paragraphs where she discusses why extroverts may mistype as introverts & uses acting methods as an example of the different mindsets. I don't remember it exactly now, but I found it made some good points when I read it.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

OrangeAppled said:


> Most Fi-dom people encounter in person are likely e9, IMO, so that may be why they have trouble seeing someone like Fiona as INFP. They may think INFPs are really soft & easy-going & "whimsical" as opposed to fiery, intense & "abstract".


I can't really utilize the enneagram hybrid stuff or your examples of INFPs - mostly because I haven't accepted either yet - but I won't get into that here. Interesting thoughts all around.

It really boils down to this. I am typing Fiona ENFP for two reasons:

1) She is, in terms of sensory impressions and the logical consistency they provide, more indicative of ENFPs that I have personally observed than with INFPs that I have personally observed... as an aggregate. That is, she is unlike those who I have observed and know to be INFP compared to those who I have observed and know to be ENFP. She is more like the ENFPs. This is an impression based on sensory data - essentially, her demeanor. This is totally useless to you, but I am mentioning it because it is, for good or ill, one of my reasons - at the very least it provided the impetus for my questioning.

2) Strongly related to #1, she seems to be using Ne strongly. In my opinion, this could be called more 'fiery', 'intense' and 'abstract'. That seems to me to translate fairly well to Ne having dominance over Fi and Te having dominance over Si. If Fi/Si were the bully pulpit, you would get the relative reticence of, well, INFPs! Neil Gaiman, Kurt Cobain, Rivers Cuomo, Tim Burton, etc. With Ne/Te running the show, you get the abstract and fiery! This is conceptually contradictory to Fi dominance. I mean, isn't that the definition? We are looking for all these cues to explain away something that is intrinsic to the system. Someone can be as shy and reclusive as they want - they can have such a profound grasp on the nuance of Fi - but if their Ne isn't checked and their Te is being consciously and explicitly used, I am going to call it ENFP. 

She is an INFP, who is just more openly opinionated and socially particular and who also tends to be more freely expressive with her abstraction. What is that if not ENFP? And, if that is just another sort of INFP, then what is ENFP? I really think this 'ambivert' problem is more than just a problem, I think it's an entire misconception... it's a red herring.

Maybe she is an INFP. Regardless, the point stands.


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

arkigos said:


> I can't really utilize the enneagram hybrid stuff or your examples of INFPs - mostly because I haven't accepted either yet - but I won't get into that here.


Yeah, I’m not a huge enneagram guy, but it certainly helps explains the different flavours of the same MBTI types for me. I like the system’s fluidity and focus on development as well. It seems to be more of an INFP system though 



> It really boils down to this. I am typing Fiona ENFP for two reasons:
> 
> 1) She is, in terms of sensory impressions and the logical consistency they provide, more indicative of ENFPs that I have personally observed than with INFPs that I have personally observed... as an aggregate. That is, she is unlike those who I have observed and know to be INFP compared to those who I have observed and know to be ENFP. She is more like the ENFPs. This is an impression based on sensory data - essentially, her demeanor. This is totally useless to you, but I am mentioning it because it is, for good or ill, one of my reasons - at the very least it provided the impetus for my questioning.


 I get what you’re saying. I trust your opinion comes from an authentic, informed place, even if I disagree with it. :wink:



> 2) Strongly related to #1, she seems to be using Ne strongly. In my opinion, this could be called more 'fiery', 'intense' and 'abstract'. That seems to me to translate fairly well to Ne having dominance over Fi and Te having dominance over Si. If Fi/Si were the bully pulpit, you would get the relative reticence of, well, INFPs! Neil Gaiman, Kurt Cobain, Rivers Cuomo, Tim Burton, etc. With Ne/Te running the show, you get the abstract and fiery! This is conceptually contradictory to Fi dominance. I mean, isn't that the definition? We are looking for all these cues to explain away something that is intrinsic to the system. Someone can be as shy and reclusive as they want - they can have such a profound grasp on the nuance of Fi - but if their Ne isn't checked and their Te is being consciously and explicitly used, I am going to call it ENFP.


It’s tricky. In interviews/performances she does strike me as a little TOO Ne for an INFP. She certainly appears differently than Cobain, Burton, Depp, Cuomo, etc. She's probably closer to a John Lennon energy. A lot of Ne/Te humour/bite, but still INFP's.



> She is an INFP, who is just more openly opinionated and socially particular and who also tends to be more freely expressive with her abstraction. What is that if not ENFP? And, if that is just another sort of INFP, then what is ENFP? *I really think this 'ambivert' problem is more than just a problem, I think it's an entire misconception... it's a red herring.*
> 
> Maybe she is an INFP. Regardless, the point stands.


Forgive me, I’m not sure what you mean by the bolded exactly, care to say that differently? For some reason I don’t understand what you mean by the ambivert problem, and it being a red herring.

As for the rest, I think the issue with typing Fiona is that we only see Fiona when she is in interviews/performing on stage. Please recall that she has released 2 albums since 1999, and spends most of that time sitting at home, doing nothing. She claims she often just sits outside not thinking or doing anything for long stretches of time, and that she only goes to the outside world until she has starved herself so long she has to come back. Everybody has an introverted and an extraverted side. But we only see Fiona’s extraverted side, because we don’t see her until she has been in seclusion for 6 years and feels like coming out. So I think it’s natural her Ne-Te are on prominent display, especially in an extraverted setting like interviews/talk shows/concerts, etc.

That being said, I see where you’re coming from with the Ne-dom thing a lot better now. I don’t think we can get much further with this than we’ve come though, since none of us know her very well. Agree to disagree, I guess? :happy:



OrangeAppled said:


> IMO. Audrey Hepburn is a good example of e9 INFP. I'm trying to think of other e9 INFPs but most Fi-dom 9s I can think of offhand are ISFP... Most Fi-dom people encounter in person are likely e9, IMO, so that may be why they have trouble seeing someone like Fiona as INFP. They may think INFPs are really soft & easy-going & "whimsical" as opposed to fiery, intense & "abstract".


I don’t think a lot of INFP e9’s become very famous, since they don’t have the sort of energy that makes a person stand out. I hadn’t thought of Audrey Hepburn, that’s a good one! If I had to guess at other famous e9 INFP’s, we’d probably be looking at authors like A.A. Milne and maybe Antoine de St. Exupery too. Winnie the Pooh and The Little Prince have this dreamy, childlike quality. And while the text is simple, it’s profound nonetheless.



> I tend to think if you aren't sure if you're I/E and you're a 4, then you're probably an E, just because 4s are a withdrawn type so an introverted 4 is pretty obvious, IMO.
> 
> But you're talking about being _outgoing_, which suggest ENFP a bit more. However, you also seem to suggest you are acting & taking on a character, which may be an introvert experience of "being outgoing". Introverts tend to feel like "no one knows the real me". But I do think external feedback is significant; sometimes we have a persona which doesn't let us see our ego. I think I used to test as a Thinking type a lot because of that.


Yeah, I think you're right. I suspect I resist the external feedback, because people tend to take me lightly and see me as a bit dizzy/silly, and I feel like I'm actually a pretty intense person, even if I don't always act that way publicly.



> Have you read Lenore Thompson yet? She has a good couple of paragraphs where she discusses why extroverts may mistype as introverts & uses acting methods as an example of the different mindsets. I don't remember it exactly now, but I found it made some good points when I read it.


Yeah I read one of her books, but by her logic, society has conditioned me to feel more extraverted than I am because I’m a man. I don’t know if I buy that. Of course, that's just what I can recall from her book Personality Type: A Manual . I don't remember what else it said on the matter, I'll have to track down a copy. 

Thanks for your input though, I forgot what the thread was about with all this Fiona Apple talk :tongue: You guys have actually given me a lot to think about, even indirectly, just by debating whether Fiona is INFP/ENFP, since that's what I am debating over for my own typing.


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

arkigos said:


> 2) Strongly related to #1, she seems to be using Ne strongly. In my opinion, this could be called more 'fiery', 'intense' and 'abstract'. That seems to me to translate fairly well to Ne having dominance over Fi and Te having dominance over Si. If Fi/Si were the bully pulpit, you would get the relative reticence of, well, INFPs! Neil Gaiman, Kurt Cobain, Rivers Cuomo, Tim Burton, etc. With Ne/Te running the show, you get the abstract and fiery! This is conceptually contradictory to Fi dominance. I mean, isn't that the definition? We are looking for all these cues to explain away something that is intrinsic to the system. Someone can be as shy and reclusive as they want - they can have such a profound grasp on the nuance of Fi - but if their Ne isn't checked and their Te is being consciously and explicitly used, I am going to call it ENFP.
> 
> She is an INFP, who is just more openly opinionated and socially particular and who also tends to be more freely* expressive with her abstraction*. What is that if not ENFP? And, if that is just another sort of INFP, *then what is ENFP?* I really think this 'ambivert' problem is more than just a problem, I think it's an entire misconception... it's a red herring.
> 
> Maybe she is an INFP. Regardless, the point stands.


1. She expresses through her art form though. Which is quite Fi. I don't think you quite know what Fi is; calmness is just a mask SOME Fi-dom wear. And Cobain seems like a pretty intense, fiery kind of guy. The others are questionably typed... 

2. Something quite different, yes. Someone who uses Fi towards others (empathetic, mirroring, etc), less so in their own refined identity. Someone who is opportunistic (Ne), sometimes at the expense of their integrity & loyalty. 

Te not being checked is more Fi-dim - inferior Te. The inferior has a greater impact on the psychology of someone because of its opposition to the dominant. ENFPs usually wield Te _better_ than INFPs, but the dominant/inferior play affects personality a lot. She doesn't seem inferior Si anyway. She seems to like her routines & creature comforts in a way that says Si is more of the tertiary temptation - something that actually prevents her aux Ne from exploring possibilites in real time, which she often does not do, creating music rather sparingly & admitting to not doing much inbetween besides reading theoretical books. This suggests inferior Te also - becoming absorbed in gathering info, an insecurity over understanding the factual order of the world. Inferior Si is a paranoia over things not changing (the present in a cage), or possibilites suddenly all looking dire. I don't see that in her... (although as an INFP I still experience that at times too, but not in the way it appears in ENFPs, which often leads to action that can be destructive).



> But when [Fi] becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration ..... so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage, which prepares the way over into the extraverted functions repressed by feeling....so introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts passes all bounds.


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> Te not being checked is more Fi-dim - inferior Te. The inferior has a greater impact on the psychology of someone because of its opposition to the dominant. ENFPs usually wield Te _better_ than INFPs, but the dominant/inferior play affects personality a lot. She doesn't seem inferior Si anyway. She seems to like her routines & creature comforts in a way that says Si is more of the tertiary temptation - something that actually prevents her aux Ne from exploring possibilites in real time, which she often does not do, creating music rather sparingly & admitting to not doing much inbetween besides reading theoretical books. This suggests inferior Te also - becoming absorbed in gathering info, an insecurity over understanding the factual order of the world. Inferior Si is a paranoia over things not changing (the present in a cage), or possibilites suddenly all looking dire. I don't see that in her... (although as an INFP I still experience that at times too, but not in the way it appears in ENFPs, which often leads to action that can be destructive).


Yes, I think it's important to note that the inferior, even though it is the furthest from the consciousness, still wields more influence than the tertiary. What you resist persists, and we resist our inferior the most of all, so it is naturally very persistent.

The tertiary's effect is always subtler. In fact, I have never head Jung even mention the tertiary. Mind you, I haven't read ALL of his stuff. Also, he wasn't all that concerned with mapping out the 16 types, with their cognitive functions all neatly slotted in. 

I remember Jung saying that sometimes, the dom/aux can be equally differentiated, and that the aux might even appear stronger, depending on the person's life experience. And so he suggested that it sometimes works better to look at their inferior. He said you need to figure out what is the person's psychological "cross to bear" and you will figure out their type. 

In the case of Fiona, I don't see Si as her problem. I have a neurotic ENFP friend, who illustrates inferior Si very well. If her relationship starts to last for a while, and they slip into a routine, and their future seems all mapped out and pre-determined, she freaks out. Not only does it bother her, but she will actively imperil the relationship, because the uncertainty, the intensity of the conflict, provides more passion and excitement than a stable relationship. She also freaks out when she's left alone, and begins to worry that she'll be alone forever.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Stanislas said:


> It’s tricky. In interviews/performances she does strike me as a little TOO Ne for an INFP. She certainly appears differently than Cobain, Burton, Depp, Cuomo, etc. She's probably closer to a John Lennon energy. A lot of Ne/Te humour/bite, but still INFP's.


That's funny because I tend to type John Lennon as an ENFP, LOL. I think people typing him as an INFP is bizarre. He was such an extravert, especially for an N. He was arguably the most extraverted of the beatles... even more extraverted than the ESFP Ringo. I think the fact that he tended to be more intellectual and introspective than the others... and the fact that if you aren't a caricature of co-dependent flightiness, you can't be an ENFP it seems. But, yes. 



OrangeAppled said:


> 1. She expresses through her art form though. Which is quite Fi. I don't think you quite know what Fi is; calmness is just a mask SOME Fi-dom wear. And Cobain seems like a pretty intense, fiery kind of guy. The others are questionably typed...


I suppose I know Fi pretty well, but I could certainly be wrong. I am not certain I ever implied that calmness was necessarily the inner absolute of an Fi. I simply meant to imply that Fi is introverted and thus would naturally mitigate Ne expression in, say, an interview. Not that Ne would go away at all, it would just typically be tempered and also probably less practiced in such an awkward environment. I very much comprehend that Fi doesn't mean tranquility. Quite the opposite, I have been close to many Fi types over decades and I can sense how their insides churn. 

Also, I rather think that Depp and Hepburn are questionably typed, but that's the problem with this whole exercise, I guess... I've not looked in to Audrey but I have looked into Depp and I am fairly convinced that he is an ISFP. I don't expect you to accept that, at all! I am just putting it out there to be chewed on or spat out at your leisure. That's what we Ne do. Of all of them, the only one I am sure enough about to fight to the death on is Rivers Cuomo (and, honestly, Cobain). Other than being a bit extreme in his introversion, I think that he is the gold standard of INFP. Cobain may be remembered as intense and fiery, but I assure you that this is myth. He was the most unerringly mellow (wrong word... monotone? subdued? Cuomo-ish? stoic? not sure what word is best) human being. I challenge you to find one interview or even story of him being anything other than a huge ruminative introvert. You won't. He rivals Cuomo for his level of awkward, shy, intellectual, short sarcastic/joking non-committal answers to everything. He is a classic, typical, INFP. As an aside, I have never in my life met an effeminate INFP or one who would see themselves as sensitive or whatever I always hear about them. I guess many might see them this way, I never have. 'Measured', however, that they certainly are. Kurt's feud with Axl Rose was funny, and really shows how collected and reserved he was... also, his Ne wit. One of my favorite tales of him.. which was probably the single most controversial thing I can think of him having done in terms of being contentious:



> <backstage at a festival or something> Kurt and Courtney were sitting with Frances when Axl Rose walked by, holding hands with his model-girlfriend Stephanie Seymour. "Hey Axl," Courtney beckoned, sounding a bit like Blanche Dubois, "will you be the godfather of our child?" Rose ignored her but turned to Kurt, who was bouncing Frances on his knee, and leaned down near his face .... and barked, "You shut your bitch up, or I'm taking you down to the pavement!"
> The idea that anyone could control Courtney was so laughable that a giant smile came to Kurt's face. He would have started chortling uncontrollably if it weren't for his own strong sense of self-preservation. He turned to Courtney and ordered, in a robot-like voice: "Okay. Bitch, shut up." This brought a snicker to everyone within earshot, other than Rose and Seymour.


So, yeah, not exactly a firebrand, that one. I think the teller of that story was using hyperbole, having obsessively stalked Cobain in life and death, I can say with some degree of authority that his reactions were probably much more, well, like him, than portrayed. Like I say, the guy could give Cuomo a run for his money. 



Stanislas said:


> Forgive me, I’m not sure what you mean by the bolded exactly, care to say that differently? For some reason I don’t understand what you mean by the ambivert problem, and it being a red herring.


I meant basically that 'ambivert' is a distraction from the greater consideration that introvert/extravert are just the natural extension of the battle between the top two functions. The situation shouldn't be a question of '-version' at all. Honestly, it wasn't that important.



Stanislas said:


> As for the rest, I think the issue with typing Fiona is that we only see Fiona when she is in interviews/performing on stage. Please recall that she has released 2 albums since 1999, and spends most of that time sitting at home, doing nothing. She claims she often just sits outside not thinking or doing anything for long stretches of time, and that she only goes to the outside world until she has starved herself so long she has to come back. Everybody has an introverted and an extraverted side. But we only see Fiona’s extraverted side, because we don’t see her until she has been in seclusion for 6 years and feels like coming out. So I think it’s natural her Ne-Te are on prominent display, especially in an extraverted setting like interviews/talk shows/concerts, etc.


I don't see 6 years of seclusion as a situation of introversion vs extraversion. If I recall correctly, she has a group of friends with whom she interacts? Regardless, the two greatest recluses I've ever met were ENTPs (turns out there were doing a lot of socializing in particular ways, but they had reclused from the world). Turns out, my wife is an ENFP. She would be seen by the world as a recluse. She spends a lot of time at home. It's funny to me, because before I met her I'd heard about her as an actress and how amazing she was (usually at playing complex villains) but I've never seen her act in the 8 years we've been married. A month ago she was invited to do a play and they are in their run now. She is actually really incredible and I've wondered why she stopped... everyone wonders why she stopped. She shrugs and gives some vague whimsical answer. "I've just been craving it lately," she says. That doesn't matter either, since you don't know her. I think Marilyn Manson is an ENFP and I think he is a notorious 'recluse' and homebody. Moral of the story, I don't think that is a good gauge of EvsINFP. I could easily see an INFP who gets out more or is more engaged in projects than ENFP - a stronger Si comes to mind as a plausible explanation. All I have to offer is my personal perceptions here. I really don't think that Ne/Fi fits into typical molds for introversion and extraversion as we think of them. I have seen again and again and again that this is not so.



Stanislas said:


> That being said, I see where you’re coming from with the Ne-dom thing a lot better now. I don’t think we can get much further with this than we’ve come though, since none of us know her very well. Agree to disagree, I guess? :happy:


Thanks for indulging me.



OrangeAppled said:


> 2. Something quite different, yes. Someone who uses Fi towards others (empathetic, mirroring, etc), less so in their own refined identity. Someone who is opportunistic (Ne), sometimes at the expense of their integrity & loyalty.


Wait, what? I agree with the Fi description, in a sense. I have spoken with INFPs at length about how they view empathy... with fascinating results. I don't know if 'mirroring' is the word I'd use... though I guess I don't necessarily grasp your meaning. 

What I am really spinning on is this 'opportunistic' thing. I suppose I could accuse ENTPs of being opportunistic and a bit relativistic with morality, sure... but ENFP? No way. They are freaking Fi for heaven's sake. Not to speak in absolutes, because I know that's a mistake, but I have never met an ENFP who would set aside integrity and loyalty for ANYTHING. No, I don't think that your description is accurate at all. ENFPs are moral giants, as a rule. That, at least, I am confident of. Now, comparable to INFP? Meh, I don't think there is a significant difference in any reasonable scope... not in my experience. I can only imagine, however, that ENFP is more prone to being influenced? Not sure.



OrangeAppled said:


> Te not being checked is more Fi-dim - inferior Te. The inferior has a greater impact on the psychology of someone because of its opposition to the dominant. ENFPs usually wield Te _better_ than INFPs, but the dominant/inferior play affects personality a lot. She doesn't seem inferior Si anyway. She seems to like her routines & creature comforts in a way that says Si is more of the tertiary temptation - something that actually prevents her aux Ne from exploring possibilites in real time, which she often does not do, creating music rather sparingly & admitting to not doing much inbetween besides reading theoretical books. This suggests inferior Te also - becoming absorbed in gathering info, an insecurity over understanding the factual order of the world. Inferior Si is a paranoia over things not changing (the present in a cage), or possibilites suddenly all looking dire. I don't see that in her... (although as an INFP I still experience that at times too, but not in the way it appears in ENFPs, which often leads to action that can be destructive).


I see what you are saying, so let me me clarify what I meant... I meant 'used'. Like, used like you use a hammer. I absolutely reject the idea that the inferior is more often used than tertiary. I realize that it's omnipresent in a subconscious and indirect role, yes... that is clear. Again, I am talking about direct and explicit usage in the conscious mind. All in all, I actually don't see the distinction half so starkly as I perceive you do. I personally think that inferior is the worst thing to look for in typing a celebrity, since having their inferior function expose itself is pretty unlikely in a random interview. It would be very hard to see if and when Apple behaved in line with either inferior. I don't know at all. All I know is that she seemed to be using, like a fork, using Te... I do not typically observe that in INFPs... I find that for them, Te is utilized more obliquely and indirectly... at least in casual conversation. They are not, for example, prone to making critical judgments or observations about this and that.... like, ever, unless they are really pushed or upset. 



Stanislas said:


> Yes, I think it's important to note that the inferior, even though it is the furthest from the consciousness, still wields more influence than the tertiary. What you resist persists, and we resist our inferior the most of all, so it is naturally very persistent.


I agree. Though I wouldn't say that it's greater, just more noticeable, as you've said... since it tends to come out during 'tantrums'... like when Kurt Cobain let loose on two rapists in the album cover of ... Incesticide? Yeah. That was big Te.

I see the value in looking for the inferior, as it can present dramatically. Do we have examples from Fiona? 



Stanislas said:


> In the case of Fiona, I don't see Si as her problem. I have a neurotic ENFP friend, who illustrates inferior Si very well. If her relationship starts to last for a while, and they slip into a routine, and their future seems all mapped out and pre-determined, she freaks out. Not only does it bother her, but she will actively imperil the relationship, because the uncertainty, the intensity of the conflict, provides more passion and excitement than a stable relationship. She also freaks out when she's left alone, and begins to worry that she'll be alone forever now.


How is she in relationships? I can see your description being true, though to a less unhealthy degree, in ENFPs that I know. 

@OrangeAppled - It's interesting to me that you are taking such an informative role in this... where's the Ne? I am dying out here!


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

arkigos said:


> Also, I rather think that Depp and Hepburn are questionably typed, but that's the problem with this whole exercise, I guess... I've not looked in to Audrey but I have looked into Depp and I am fairly convinced that he is an ISFP. I don't expect you to accept that, at all! I am just putting it out there to be chewed on or spat out at your leisure. That's what we Ne do.


Honestly, to me Depp is quintessential INFP e4 male. 



> Of all of them, the only one I am sure enough about to fight to the death on is Rivers Cuomo (and, honestly, Cobain). Other than being a bit extreme in his introversion, I think that he is the gold standard of INFP.


See, I think he is ISFP  . I don't see Ne in him... he seems very literal, light in his use of metaphor, not having trans-contextual thinking like INFPs show (and all NPs). He doesn't seem to have tert Si sentimentality or know-it-all attitude INxPs have.

I don't find him relatable. Perhaps using yourself as a gauge is faulty if you're mistyped, but I'm very confident of my type & most people see me as a rather quintessential INFP poster 'round these parts. 



> Cobain may be remembered as intense and fiery, but I assure you that this is myth. He was the most unerringly mellow (wrong word... monotone? subdued? Cuomo-ish? stoic? not sure what word is best) human being. I challenge you to find one interview or even story of him being anything other than a huge ruminative introvert. You won't. He rivals Cuomo for his level of awkward, shy, intellectual, short sarcastic/joking non-committal answers to everything. He is a classic, typical, INFP.


I guess you're talking demeanor & I'm talking the inner person as expressed via their art or in moments where they're worked up, which is where Fiona mostly display fieriness (and how I see Cobain as intense/fiery). She seems awkward & uncomfortable in most interviews, although there's more expression in her voice than with Cobain (and let's remember she is a woman also). I think a lot of that is emotional instability also.... she's very nervous/shaky. 

And Cobain is an e5! e4 INFP = the least mellow of the INFPs. e9s are most common & most mellow.

Cuomo is probably an e5 also, the most stoic an INFP will be.

By your definition, I'd be ENFP because I can get intense & fiery at times, but in everyday situations I'm extremely quiet & withdrawn because I'm lost in my head (not necessarily shyness). Family sees me as temperamental but also semi-reclusive & casual acquaintances find me prickly/aloof & hard to crack open. I'm regarded as classically introverted by pretty much everyone I know who knows what that means. People have accused me of not caring because I seem detached, and then they accuse me of being temperamental & defensive - which are obvious signs of caring. The weird mixture is more Fi-dom. The one way ENFPs are more even is their appearance of caring or not (they're more likely to appear to care when they do not).

Fiona is very relatable to me, although I think I'm much healthier, which makes a huge difference. Cognitively, I think it's clear I'm Fi-dom and show a comfortable use of Si, which suggests tertiary & not inferior... 



> I think Marilyn Manson is an ENFP and I think he is a notorious 'recluse' and homebody. Moral of the story, I don't think that is a good gauge of EvsINFP.


Manson is an xNFJ. I officially don't trust your typing skills .



> I could easily see an INFP who gets out more or is more engaged in projects than ENFP - a stronger Si comes to mind as a plausible explanation.


What in the world does that have to do with Si? 
Si in an INxP is often played out as sentimental, focused on gathering info on niche interests, stubbornness to change Ji judging-concepts, and more patience with the present (less fickle/destructive to cause change).



> All I have to offer is my personal perceptions here. I really don't think that Ne/Fi fits into typical molds for introversion and extraversion as we think of them. I have seen again and again and again that this is not so.


Or perhaps you type people poorly....



> Wait, what? I agree with the Fi description, in a sense. I have spoken with INFPs at length about how they view empathy... with fascinating results. I don't know if 'mirroring' is the word I'd use... though I guess I don't necessarily grasp your meaning.


I was talking about ENFPs there. Dario Nardi's study show they experience even more empathic thinking than INFPs. This has to do with the "mirroring" and being more other-focused. INFPs are certainly empathetic (2nd most in this kind of thinking, according to Nardi's study), but we're also more in-touch with our own identities because our focus is our inner world. ENFPs have less clearer defined selves, IMO. Fi is less refined, less explored for them, so it's murkier. When Si is overused, INFPs are too stuck on a set ideal for themselves. We're much more stubborn and immovable. Fiona strikes me as INFP there again.



> What I am really spinning on is this 'opportunistic' thing. I suppose I could accuse ENTPs of being opportunistic and a bit relativistic with morality, sure... but ENFP? No way. They are freaking Fi for heaven's sake. Not to speak in absolutes, because I know that's a mistake, but I have never met an ENFP who would set aside integrity and loyalty for ANYTHING. No, I don't think that your description is accurate at all. ENFPs are moral giants, as a rule. That, at least, I am confident of. Now, comparable to INFP? Meh, I don't think there is a significant difference in any reasonable scope... not in my experience. I can only imagine, however, that ENFP is more prone to being influenced? Not sure.


As a Fi-dom, I see a big difference. I find ENFPs much more fickle, inconsistent, and even contradictory with their feeling.
They have a bigger rep for flakiness. I'm not saying they are not often very moral or lack integrity - but the INFP is much stronger in these areas. Sometimes this is to our own detriment - developing more flexibility with our Ne does us good, just as developing better Fi does ENFPs good.

I notice you want to attribute all the good of Fi to ENFPs, yet are not willing to do the same with INFPs & Ne - why is that?



> I see what you are saying, so let me me clarify what I meant... I meant 'used'. Like, used like you use a hammer. I absolutely reject the idea that the inferior is more often used than tertiary.


I don't think I said "more often". It has a larger influence on the whole psychology of a person because the tertiary is more comfortably "mixed" in so to speak. I don't think the functions are "used" like tools either. Type is the ego, and the inferior is an opposing force in the mind. 



> I realize that it's omnipresent in a subconscious and indirect role, yes... that is clear. Again, I am talking about direct and explicit usage in the conscious mind. All in all, I actually don't see the distinction half so starkly as I perceive you do.


We'll just have to disagree on the latter. The former I agree with, but I see it as a significant difference in meaning.



> They are not, for example, prone to making critical judgments or observations about this and that.... like, ever, unless they are really pushed or upset.


A lot of people would disagree with you on that. INFPs are known for being more "judgey" than ENFPs.
I'm much more critical & less tolerant than most ENFPs I've known.

I suppose you could say INFPs are less vocal, period, but that's often due to introversion. When speaking, we're still Ji-dom. 
I mean INTPs come off as markedly more judging than ENTPs too. Feeling is rational judgment, so INFPs often have very strong opinions based on their feeling-concepts & tend to be more critical of that which is less than ideal.



> I see the value in looking for the inferior, as it can present dramatically. Do we have examples from Fiona?


Read her song lyrics! And check the quote from Jung again about inferior Te in Fi-doms & the "_contentless passionateness"._ 
She's hyper-sensitive, defensive, self-deprecatory, self-righteous, etc. Much more common in INFPs.
The mixture of inner security & outer insecurity is a sign of Ji-dom.



> How is she in relationships? I can see your description being true, though to a less unhealthy degree, in ENFPs that I know.


I'd check the song lyrics, again.

The only other thing I can say is I read an interview not too long ago with her & was struck again at how INFP she is... if I could find it, I'd post it. I'm sort of losing interest though, honestly.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

> See, I think he is ISFP  . I don't see Ne in him... he seems very literal, light in his use of metaphor, not having trans-contextual thinking like INFPs show (and all NPs). He doesn't seem to have tert Si sentimentality or know-it-all attitude INxPs have.
> 
> 
> I don't find him relatable. Perhaps using yourself as a gauge is faulty if you're mistyped, but I'm very confident of my type & most people see me as a rather quintessential INFP poster 'round these parts.


Wait, Rivers Cuomo? .................. seriously? I'm going to suggest due diligence to you on this one. Because.... wow. I am not sure how to even approach that. 



* *





Yesterday I went outside 
With my mama's mason jar, 
Caught a lovely butterfly 
When I woke up today 
Looked in on my fairy pet 
She had withered all away 
No more sighing in her breast 


I'm sorry for what I did 
I did what my body told me to 
I didn't mean to do you harm 
Everytime I pin down what I think I want it slips away 
The ghost slips away 


Smell you on my hands for days 
I can't wash away your scent 
If I'm a dog then you're a bitch
I guess you're as real as me 
Maybe I can live with that 
Maybe I need fantasy 
Life of chasing butterfly 


I'm sorry for what I did 
I did what my body told me to 
I didn't mean to do you harm 
Everytime I pin down what I think I want it slips away 
The goal slips away 


I told you I would return 
When the robin makes his nest 
But I ain't never coming back 
I'm sorry 
I'm sorry 
I'm sorry





Also, why are you mentioning me using myself as a gauge? I struggle to see where I might have done so or how you might have gained the impression that I had. I am very confused by this. 


Lastly, citing the community consensus as authority - even off-handedly..... well, it's all building up to a rather inevitable breach in our conception of Jung. I am coming perilously close to calling you an Ni. I am sure you will toss some insufficiency in my comprehension or conception at me to deflect this, yes? I do love irony. 




> I guess you're talking demeanor & I'm talking the inner person as expressed via their art or in moments where they're worked up, which is where Fiona mostly display fieriness (and how I see Cobain as intense/fiery). She seems awkward & uncomfortable in most interviews, although there's more expression in her voice than with Cobain (and let's remember she is a woman also). I think a lot of that is emotional instability also.... she's very nervous/shaky.


Isn't this just a diplomatic way of calling my typing shallow and poorly directed? How delightfully <insert whatever type you think you are> of you! If this is INFP, then, yes, my conceptions are quite off. Off of yours, certainly.




> By your definition, I'd be ENFP because I can get intense & fiery at times,


Depending on what you mean by that, I guess. Or you'd be something else entirely. I imagine that, as an Ne, you'd be quite open to my perspective on this and eager to hear it... to fuel your Ji. You are, right? I am really soaking up all this expansive Ne you are portraying. Perhaps you can tell me how my comprehension is lacking in this regard?




> Manson is an xNFJ. I officially don't trust your typing skills .


Yes, his moderate conceptions and almost annoying open-mindedness middle ground non-ideology is oh so very Ni. 








I am seeing it now. Maybe vascillating and exploring different ideals and failing to commit on any really is Ni after all and I am just way way off. 

SIDE NOTE: Ironically, all this talk about Kurt and Fiona have made me question my typing of him as ENFP and put INFP back on the table for consideration, tentatively and very hypothetically. Given the dichotomy of Fiona and Kurt, Manson is more consistent with the more measured and non-committal Kurt. He does the classic Ji-dom answering every question with a '..... wwwwweeellllll.....' correction, rather than an Ne just riffing off like Fiona does in the video later in my post, and, honestly, in most of what I have seen of her. That '..... wwwwweeellllll.....' reticence definitely seems more Ji. Just a theory, of course... but, it does seem consistent to me. I'll need to look into this more. 



> What in the world does that have to do with Si?
> Si in an INxP is often played out as sentimental, focused on gathering info on niche interests, stubbornness to change Ji judging-concepts, and more patience with the present (less fickle/destructive to cause change).


I'll not debate semantics (er, any more than I have, lol)... and since I agree with all of your definitions for the most part, I'd say that Si connects us to real-world, as you say, 'niche interests' (which is a good term, I think) which tends to prompt us to engage those interests. That nostalgic, tribal (if you catch my meaning... since you are an Ne, I can only imagine that the 'gist' of things comes easy to you, leaving you disinclined to scrutinize, yes?), methodological tendency can be reasonably associated with with pulling the INxP back into the world, back into reality, to sensory engagement with those subjective interests... I am sure you can grasp the gist of what I mean. 




> Or perhaps you type people poorly....


Fears such as this haunt me constantly. Ne provides me with no faith in my comprehension and conception and makes me always always willing and open to dump my entire conception, almost TOO prone to, really. It's a gift. I am sure, as an Ne, that you are all too familiar with this very real nagging conceptual uncertainty. I am almost eager to be proven wrong, just to find a moments reprieve from that fear. It's almost cathartic to have my sandcastle toppled before my eyes, 'I knew it would end like this', I think and smile.




> I find ENFPs much more fickle, inconsistent, and even contradictory with their feeling.


Interesting. They are certainly more frenetic and adaptable, as you say. Which is, as you say, both good and bad.




> I notice you want to attribute all the good of Fi to ENFPs, yet are not willing to do the same with INFPs & Ne - why is that?


Why is it that you notice that? I am not sure. 
But, being serious, I rather tend to think that INFP is 'better' at Ne than ENFP... mostly because I think that Ne unchecked is too frenetic and, er, 'shallow' .. and by that I mean that they jump from one to another too quickly. INFP is a perfect situation because they have a great use of Ne but it's filtered, delightfully, through Fi with incredible results. I think that his perspective of mine is biased. All of my favorite music is created by xNFPs (at least those who I conceive to be xNFP, a conception currently in question but I'll still speak under the presumption that it is incidentally correct). I've long assumed my bias was a result of me, myself being an INTP, thus tending to have a bias toward the value of my own 'tempered' Ne and some frustration with the 'flippant' Ne of those ENxP types I associate with. 'Stop! Bear down, ruminate and perfect', I often plead to them. I've had a long time to open my perspective in that regard, but I think the bias still exists in me... perhaps my over-exhuberance for them is a result of that struggle? It's hard to say. Tightening up conceptions is not a strong point of mine... just analyzing their consistency.




> I don't think I said "more often". It has a larger influence on the whole psychology of a person because the tertiary is more comfortably "mixed" in so to speak. I don't think the functions are "used" like tools either. Type is the ego, and the inferior is an opposing force in the mind.
> INFPs are known for being more "judgey" than ENFPs. I'm much more critical & less tolerant than most ENFPs I've known. I suppose you could say INFPs are less vocal, period, but that's often due to introversion. When speaking, we're still Ji-dom.


Perhaps internally judgy, or seeing themselves as more judgy... but I think ENFP are more likely to be expressive of the critical observations that they have... more often. They use Te with greater ease, as you say. However, when INFP does use Te, I can definitely attest to the expression being notably more dramatic and distinct, though also more brief and 'possessed' (as in, by a devil). For an ENFP it will be like something they often do, for the INFP it would be more like, 'sorry, I don't know what got into me... I am usually not like that.'


I suspect that this conversation is on a long road to nowhere. I think we are either talking over each other and misunderstanding each other's positions or we simply comprehend the whole theory very differently. If you are uninterested in having your conceptions questioned by someone whose authority you've ... er, revoked? Then I encourage to question what manner of cognition causes you to do so. I suspect that such a process will be highly internalized for you and a long time in the making, if possible at all. You get what I mean. 

Also:






Just, so very much an ENFP. My wife's eyes went wide watching this video. It's her, in different skin. She said this, which was interesting:



> It's like you can't describe things enough with words that you have to grab it. Dancing her eyes around, like 'what is it?' 'where is it?' trying to push the thoughts out of your mouth before they are replaced.


We were noticing the 'claw and roar' of 00:35 (I've joked with my wife for years about her contorted 'battle cry' demeanor when she is talking like this) and the 'crescendo and fall' at :50-ish where the Ne finally gives up it's endless quest to get the right words out to explain 'it all' to burst out all the endless thoughts - to get the perfect word to get the perfect understanding, but they just end up iterating through a million insufficient ones and when they realize they are rambling the fall down into Fi and accept defeat. There is a bipolar aspect to this, says my allegedly ENFP wife, with Ne rearing up until the constraints of the realities of the interview or the looks of those around subdue it. 

You can cite outside forces or influences to explain this away, and I won't have much I can do to rebut such... since they are certainly possible (my Ne won't let me be more rigid than that in conception), but it is certainly more consistent in terms of 'demeanor', as you say, with ENFP. Your view into the inner person of this celebrity figure will undoubtedly serve to offer a deeper perspective.


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

arkigos said:


> Also, why are you mentioning me using myself as a gauge? I struggle to see where I might have done so or how you might have gained the impression that I had. I am very confused by this.
> 
> Lastly, citing the community consensus as authority - even off-handedly..... well, it's all building up to a rather inevitable breach in our conception of Jung. I am coming perilously close to calling you an Ni. I am sure you will toss some insufficiency in my comprehension or conception at me to deflect this, yes? I do love irony.


I think it was a disclaimer before she went on to say that she was using HERSELF as a gauge. I could be wrong, but that’s how I read it. And then she cited community consensus just to add that not only was she very certain she was INFP, others around the community were too. So if she definitely is an INFP, then using herself as a gauge helps her spot other INFP’s.

She just said “using YOURSELF as a gauge”, because “oneself” has kind of fallen out of favour grammatically.



> He does the classic Ji-dom answering every question with a '..... wwwwweeellllll.....' correction, rather than an Ne just riffing off like Fiona does in the video later in my post, and, honestly, in most of what I have seen of her. That '..... wwwwweeellllll.....' reticence definitely seems more Ji. Just a theory, of course... but, it does seem consistent to me. I'll need to look into this more.


I like that thought, I think there’s something there, I’m just not sure what! It seems like a very Fi way to disagree though, because you don’t want to impose your judgements on others, so you just sort of indirectly correct them by simply stating your beliefs in a way that sound less disagreeable/aggressive. It’s like finding the sweet spot between integrity and harmony. That’s my two cents, anyway.



> Fears such as this haunt me constantly. Ne provides me with no faith in my comprehension and conception and makes me always always willing and open to dump my entire conception, almost TOO prone to, really. It's a gift. I am sure, as an Ne, that you are all too familiar with this very real nagging conceptual uncertainty. I am almost eager to be proven wrong, just to find a moments reprieve from that fear. It's almost cathartic to have my sandcastle toppled before my eyes, 'I knew it would end like this', I think and smile.


I really relate to this! This is helping me see my Ne…

Not to make everything about me, but I just wanted to add…even though the Fiona Apple talks have stalled, the debate has really helped me settle on type.

I think I’m an ENFP…my only real doubt is that I’ve always thought of myself as introverted. When I was growing up, I was always the kid that was off in his own little world… then again Robin Williams often claims he was a very introverted kid.



Orangeappled said:


> As a Fi-dom, I see a big difference. I find ENFPs much more fickle, inconsistent, and even contradictory with their feeling.They have a bigger rep for flakiness. I'm not saying they are not often very moral or lack integrity - but the INFP is much stronger in these areas.


Yes, ENFP's definitely have that reputation and it is mostly justified. But ENFP's don't see it as flakiness/hypocritical. It wasn't their intention, therefore it wasn't their fault, is kind of the justification. I am a rather extreme case of this, so extreme, it makes me wonder why I ever think I’m INFP:

I’m always going through phases: I was CERTAIN I was transgender for like 3 months last year. I read every book, joined forums, I cried to therapists, I ran into my father’s stern disapproval and confusion, but by God I had to be me, I had to stick to my guns. I went out and bought women's clothes and I was super embarrassed by all the weird looks I was getting, but I was determined to be authentic. I thought I was using Fi by being true to myself even if society frowned upon transgendered people. 

Now I am in that awkward point where people are asking me about my "transition" and I sheepishly tell them it was all a big mistake. A lot of people don't believe me, and think I've sold out to societal pressure, but the truth is I just don't feel like I'm inside that reality anymore, now that I've explored it so thoroughly. As far as I'm concerned however, I WAS transgender for 3 months.. Other transgender folks were telling me there was no way I could feel that way and not be transgender. I related to them very deeply at the time. And now I barely think about it anymore, until people remind me of it.

In relationships I alternate between complete and utter committal and complete and utter abandonment. I kept thinking I was falling out of love with my last girlfriend, but the truth was I was resisting any sort of Fi restrictions on my intuition. So I’d dump her, thinking I had changed, circumstances had changed, things were different, I was going to move on to grander things, I was going to be a doctor/woman/juggler/whatever. But then something new would occur to me, and I'd realize what a mistake I had made. So I’d make an inspiring plea/gesture to win her back, and pound my chest and cry and apologize, and she’d take me back. She was my everything, and I genuinely felt that way. I repeated the cycle with her until she finally moved on, and to be honest, at first I felt like she betrayed ME, that she wasn’t supporting me somehow! How could she be upset with me? I was only being true to how I felt in that situation, I can’t help that things are always shifting! I know how irrational that sounds, but it took me a long time to realize my errors and own up to them. I ruined a damn good relationship.

My point is that it’s not like I think: I am going to hurt people, fail school, flake on plans. It’s just once something grips me, it seems more “real” and pressing than everything else.

Go to the movies? Do homework? No time, I have discovered the secrets of enlightenment and world peace and I must investigate!

Anyway, you get the idea.

When I lay it all out now, it seems devastatingly obvious. But I know I’ll probably change my mind again in the future.

I am most certainly an ENFP, and I am most certainly an unhealthy one. I almost seem like an insane ISTJ acting out his inferior. That I am not, however.

Back to Fiona, though:



> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this is a really nice observation, about the rearing up and the collapse, and Fiona is certainly using Ne here, but does that mean she IS a Ne-dom? Don’t INFP’s outwardly show their Ne anyway? I have an INTP friend who can go on Ne streaks, though he is usually a very introverted, Ti-loving guy. I don’t see the behavior thing as conclusive proof, but I understand it’s the easiest evidence to turn up.

I understand what you’re seeing, but I gotta stick with INFP. Maybe it’s a case of how debating only makes you further entrenches in your own point-of-view, but I think we have all listened to each other as best as we could, even if the occasional misunderstanding arose. It does appear, however, that we have reached an impasse.


----------



## Psychopomp (Oct 3, 2012)

Stanislas said:


> I think this is a really nice observation, about the rearing up and the collapse, and Fiona is certainly using Ne here, but does that mean she IS a Ne-dom? Don’t INFP’s outwardly show their Ne anyway? I have an INTP friend who can go on Ne streaks, though he is usually a very introverted, Ti-loving guy. I don’t see the behavior thing as conclusive proof, but I understand it’s the easiest evidence to turn up.
> 
> I understand what you’re seeing, but I gotta stick with INFP. Maybe it’s a case of how debating only makes you further entrenches in your own point-of-view, but I think we have all listened to each other as best as we could, even if the occasional misunderstanding arose. It does appear, however, that we have reached an impasse.


Yeah, I think you are right... I certainly do play the devil's advocate role with everything I've got... but, in the end, I am never certain. I've made my overwrought point. You are right, too, that INxP can totally go on an Ne streak. Absolutely.

As to your type, I am glad for whatever help I provided... it looks like you at least have enough to mull more effectively on. I'd say your descriptions would fit in a bit better with ENFP than with INFP, but since they are pretty unhealthy, as you say, it's kinda hard to tell exactly what is really motivating them. 

The transgender thing is interesting to me... and the reversion. I was actually musing about how I thought that the whole transgender thing could manifest very differently for Se and Ne. I have a hard time imagining that xNFP would be very inclined to the outside appearance aspect of it at all. I actually had a surprising conversation with my INFP friend in which he expressed distaste at the whole transgender concept. This kinda blew me away because it is the first time I have ever seen him be anything but 1000% accepting of any reasonable or underdog alternative lifestyle. I probed and he clarified that it wasn't the change of identification that he found odd, but the need to change the body. We proceeded to explain it to him 20 different ways... but he was stuck on not being able to see the purpose of changing ones body to reflect it. It made me want to look into how transgender people manifest it in terms of manipulating their physical form. It sounds fascinating to me. Any insight on that?

Last, I agree on the impasse and I think we've said more than needs to be said about, well, probably all of it. Interesting ideas, though!


----------



## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

@_Stanislas_, something to keep in mind is how social you are doesn't necessarily tell you whether or not you're Introverted or Extroverted. Neither is how confident you feel really give you the answer either. A lot of people think that feeling good in public situations + outgoing is the package deal that Extroverts get and that Introverts somehow miss out on. This is really selling both Extroverts and Introverts short (especially Extroverts in many respects because they're considered the more shallow, kind of annoying talkative people who don't know how to respect the quiet person's boundaries), however, and it also spreads myths concerning what it truly means (at least according to Jung) to be primarily E or I. 

There's a common saying that goes around. You can figure out whether you are EXXX or IXXX by figuring out what gives you energy: being around people or alone time. By this definition, most people would fall about borderline, caught between the two. 

From what I've come to understand, you should look at it from the opposite angle. Where do you primarily _direct_ your energies? It is where you direct your energies that determines Introversion versus Extroversion. If you primarily direct your energies towards your Self, you are Introverted. If you primary direct your energies outwards (away from your Self), you are Extroverted. The inner world or the outer world acts as an outlet for the Introverted/Extroverted person. You see, Extroverts don't necessarily have to be all about people. They simply pay attention to the external world in general. Things outside of their own minds. Extroverts are objective, Introverts are subjective. 

Also, when you as a person are "cut off" from the place where you normally direct your energies, you are being forced to think in a way that is unnatural to you, and this would eventually become rather tiring and seemingly energy draining. I remember beginning to feel actually depressed and lacking in energy and enthusiasm last year when I was rather isolated from everybody who wasn't my immediate family. It wasn't even that I couldn't talk to people or interact with people that was so crippling. I was missing everything about the external world itself. 

I felt like I was stuck inside my own mind. I was restless in a way, and I had nothing with which to direct that restless energy towards. I was being forced to stay locked inwards, which I do not naturally do for such long periods of time and not to that intensity. 

I hope that helps. For what it's worth, usually if everybody around you perceives you to be very much the extrovert at least in temperament, that does tend to point towards a preference in Extroversion. But that doesn't set anything in stone, really. Many of my friends consider me to be Introverted, even though I'm definitely an Extrovert. ^_^


----------



## Mr Bouncerverse (Mar 30, 2013)

There for a while I thought maybe I was just a shy extravert growing up, because I really do like people. But then I realized that I like _some_ people. Interacting with strangers drains me.


----------



## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> Honestly, to me Depp is quintessential INFP e4 male.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hm.... I think this either displays an infp not in touch with their Ne, a very introverted infp, a 4w5 infp, or I'm an enfp. Certain traits are factored out here like adaptability to others or "mirroring/adjusting"/flexibility socially, and while that can be tied to extroversion, I don't they're a package deal. If you've read "Quiet", a book on introversion (much of it anecdotal but whatever), "mirroring/adjusting" mechanisms socially aren't the same as introversion.... there's a word for it... ugh.. trying to remember... but you'd relate to it, the term is seen in terms of "high" and "low" and basically concerns if one seeks to react to the itnernal self or to others socially... writing it, it sounds like Fi or Fe, but I don't think it is. In one sense we could tie it to Fe but I don't tihnk it's that simple. I don't relate to being "self-righteous" because other's prespectives really do matter to me, and I don't think I alone contain sole truth, though it is important for me to try and make my position understood... however despite not being conflict adverse I'm quite flexible with others. People irl tell me one of my key qualities is "adaptable" and "accepting" "non-judgemental" "open minded" and I guess I take that kind of "taking in all truths" very seriously. despite not being v articulate (cat is sitting on my arm as i type, v difficult), main point, I think you've described a certain kind of infp than infps in general here.


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

adverseaffects said:


> Hm.... I think this either displays an infp not in touch with their Ne, a very introverted infp, a 4w5 infp, or I'm an enfp. Certain traits are factored out here like adaptability to others or "mirroring/adjusting"/flexibility socially, and while that can be tied to extroversion, I don't they're a package deal. If you've read "Quiet", a book on introversion (much of it anecdotal but whatever), "mirroring/adjusting" mechanisms socially aren't the same as introversion.... there's a word for it... ugh.. trying to remember... but you'd relate to it, the term is seen in terms of "high" and "low" and basically concerns if one seeks to react to the itnernal self or to others socially... writing it, it sounds like Fi or Fe, but I don't think it is. In one sense we could tie it to Fe but I don't tihnk it's that simple. I don't relate to being "self-righteous" because other's prespectives really do matter to me, and I don't think I alone contain sole truth, though it is important for me to try and make my position understood... however despite not being conflict adverse I'm quite flexible with others. People irl tell me one of my key qualities is "adaptable" and "accepting" "non-judgemental" "open minded" and I guess I take that kind of "taking in all truths" very seriously. despite not being v articulate (cat is sitting on my arm as i type, v difficult), main point, I think you've described a certain kind of infp than infps in general here.


I'm talking degrees.... not describing INFPs as not adaptable at all or totally judgmental, but _comparing/contrasting with ENFPs specifically_. INFPs are shown to do less mirroring than ENFPs, and ENFPs can be "adaptable" to the point of being unstable & flaky. An INFP compared to another type might be markedly MORE adaptable & mirroring though.


----------



## perfectcircle (Jan 5, 2011)

OrangeAppled said:


> I'm talking degrees.... not describing INFPs as not adaptable at all or totally judgmental, but _comparing/contrasting with ENFPs specifically_. INFPs are shown to do less mirroring than ENFPs, and ENFPs can be "adaptable" to the point of being unstable & flaky. An INFP compared to another type might be markedly MORE adaptable & mirroring though.


Fair enough, though I meant I am more adaptable than the enfps I know, but on second thought, they are adaptable in a different way. I am to spare people's feelings/understand their perspective, they are socially adaptable in the sense of er, "fitting in". That sounds so bitter now that I've written it. But I'm generalizing based of small data.


----------



## CBC (May 9, 2011)

Julia Bell said:


> This is really selling both Extroverts and Introverts short (especially Extroverts in many respects because they're considered the more shallow, kind of annoying talkative people who don't know how to respect the quiet person's boundaries), however, and it also spreads myths concerning what it truly means (at least according to Jung) to be primarily E or I.


Yes, it irritates me to see how extraverts have been characterized lately. It reminds me of the “skinny bitch” backlash, where suddenly, instead of hating on chubby people, the pendulum swung so far the other way that being skinny meant you weren’t a “real woman” and you were likely anorexic. By the same token, introverts HAVE been overlooked, and misunderstood to some extent, but that’s no reason to start characterizing extraverts as vapid clingers to even the score.



> There's a common saying that goes around. You can figure out whether you are EXXX or IXXX by figuring out what gives you energy: being around people or alone time. By this definition, most people would fall about borderline, caught between the two.
> 
> From what I've come to understand, you should look at it from the opposite angle. Where do you primarily _direct_ your energies? It is where you direct your energies that determines Introversion versus Extroversion. If you primarily direct your energies towards your Self, you are Introverted. If you primary direct your energies outwards (away from your Self), you are Extroverted. The inner world or the outer world acts as an outlet for the Introverted/Extroverted person. You see, Extroverts don't necessarily have to be all about people. They simply pay attention to the external world in general. Things outside of their own minds. Extroverts are objective, Introverts are subjective.


I definitely get energy from solitude. When I was little, I used to come home from school, tell my mom to turn away any kids at the door, and then I would curl up in my bed and read/daydream/sleep. I needed time to recover from being around so many people.

I also direct my energies at my self. When I direct my energy outwards at people, it is often just to disarm potential threats in my social environment. People seemed to get offended by my silence growing up, and they would bully me, treat me poorly, spread rumours about me. So I learned to put on a face to placate them. I would act silly, be self-deprecating, let them see my psychological underbelly, so they wouldn’t think I was aloof and arrogant. People like that version of me way more, but it strains me. It’s still me, to some extent, I just wouldn’t normally be so vocal and colourful. I try very hard to look confident and uninhibited, but it’s hard being “artfully artless” all the time.



> Also, when you as a person are "cut off" from the place where you normally direct your energies, you are being forced to think in a way that is unnatural to you, and this would eventually become rather tiring and seemingly energy draining. I remember beginning to feel actually depressed and lacking in energy and enthusiasm last year when I was rather isolated from everybody who wasn't my immediate family. It wasn't even that I couldn't talk to people or interact with people that was so crippling. I was missing everything about the external world itself.
> 
> I felt like I was stuck inside my own mind. I was restless in a way, and I had nothing with which to direct that restless energy towards. I was being forced to stay locked inwards, which I do not naturally do for such long periods of time and not to that intensity.


It’s funny because I feel the same way but in reverse. I don’t’ feel cut off, I feel locked in a cage with my coworkers, and I have to keep up the act 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, while they all watch. I am forced to stay locked outwards with great intensity, because I have to monitor every single customer in the store, size them up, try and engage them/encourage them to buy more, or if I’m not doing that I’m entertaining the kids/performing, or I’m pressuring people to sign up for dinky offers at the cash register. Meanwhile, the managers hover around the floor, making sure you continue to bug people. I’m much better when the store is quiet, I’ve been shelving books on my own for a while, and a customer comes in and they ask about something I enjoy and they actually WANT to talk to me, and then I sort of engage them one-on-one and don’t try to impose my will on them, just speak for my own tastes and let them make up their own mind. I sometimes find a corner in the bookstore where no one can see me, just so I can sit on a stepstool and have some alone time.



> I hope that helps. For what it's worth, usually if everybody around you perceives you to be very much the extrovert at least in temperament, that does tend to point towards a preference in Extroversion. But that doesn't set anything in stone, really. Many of my friends consider me to be Introverted, even though I'm definitely an Extrovert. ^_^


yes, that did help, thank you! I’m definitely an introvert, I’m just very good at simulating extraversion.:happy:


----------



## Blazy (Oct 30, 2010)

Sorry to butt in so late but your thread caught my interest and read your thread in its entirety. I have a similar friend like that who's an INTJ. Like you he puts on his social mask to accomplish a personal goal or something. He seems very extroverted and gregarious when hanging out in a rather small group. Anything larger will probably blow his cover in an embarrassing way. He wouldn't want that, and being a smartass INTJ he knows not to do that. 

Your thread brings up the classic definition of extroversion and introversion. You should understand that extrovert doesn't equal being loud and talkative, vice versa. Extroverts like to focus their attention on exterior things, the most popular being other people. Introverts like to gather info from the outside world and focus their attention on the info in their own minds, which makes them seem detached and aloof, where as extroverts like to actively interact with external stimuli. 

To give you a very general idea, I'm not the one to sit down mindlessly talk about stuff. I remember taking a lady out to coffee and having to break if off when she insisted that she stay for coffee and not go bowling with me. No way am I gonna be dating this woman for the next couple months. She accused me of being unsocial and being a closet introvert when all I wanted to do was move on to the next thing. As an extraverted Sensor, my life needs to be constantly on the go. That doesn't include talking and talking in a cafe or being the loudest guy in the office. Interaction with the external is important to me, and having people is almost a requirement in my quest for energy and enjoyment.

No one knows for sure whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. All we can do is give you our own advice to follow and let you decide how to approach your conclusion. Observe yourself for the next week. Take note whenever you feel like you want to go home and do your own thing. Pay attention how you focus your attention. Lastly, you need to figure out from which of the two you gain the most ENJOYMENT out of.


----------

