# Te as a feminine function and Ti as a masculine function?



## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

Do you think women tend to use Te more and men use Ti more? It seems way more common, for example, for men to blurt out random facts in a Ti fashion than women (for example, the "walking dictionary" type is almost always a guy). 

Also I find women tend to be more practical and result-oriented, which Te users generally are. They're more likely to see categorizing different things for fun (like the decadeology in the Generations forums here) as being stupid, compared to men. Ti users, like men, are more prone to making generalizations and mental masturbation.

Similary, I think Fi is more feminine and Fe is more masculine, even though the conventional wisdom says otherwise. Fi is more directly connected to affective empathy while Fe users are more interested in image, reciprocation, and social dominance, all of which are higher priority to males. The most common type for women seems to be Fi-using ESFPs and the lower-Fe using TPs are the most male-dominated compared to the TJs, FPs, and FJs.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

Jung called feeling feminine and thinking masculine.

I think the caricature is useless.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

Bastard said:


> Jung called feeling feminine and thinking masculine.
> 
> I think the caricature is useless.


When I say feminine or masculine I mean "more prevalent among women" vs "more prevalent among men".


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

You and Jung alike.


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## Strelnikov (Jan 19, 2018)

Since we all use both F and T functions... I don't think there's any point to calling them masculine or feminine. I have an ENFJ friend and he's as manly as anyone and I know another ENTJ who (in private, but never in public) is rather effeminate. So it's not as clear cut as that.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

I'm pretty sure there's more Te people in general.

And if we're going to use stereotypes, i'd say Fe is feminine and Ti is masculine.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

There are probably, if I had to guess, more female Te users than there are female Ti. If there was a way to prove that then yes, Te is more feminine by the OP's definition than is Ti. I'd venture to say it is true because, anecdotally, I've met a lot more ISTP and ESTP men than women. INTP and ENTP are closer to 50-50, but then again they're fewer on the whole than the STP's. 

You'd be hard pressed to find a resource that claims Te is archetypally a "feminine" function. Te women often get accused of and stereotyped as being the corporate go-getter, ice queen, not-really-a-woman sorts, just as Te men get accused of being mean, angry, ruthless, obsessed with money, and belligerent. Te in general is associated with productivity and efficiency (though I contest that stereotype greatly), whereas it's the Feelers who get a wrap for being delicate and dainty, not able to handle being reamed by brutal Te people. All of these stereotypes are of course completely ridiculous despite being validated by so-called "credible" MBTI authors. 

It would, to add, be extremely surprising to find a resource out there that associates Te with western ideas of femininity, although feminism arguably incorporates Te-ish ideas such as providing materially for a family, financial independence, and so on that are stereotypically "masculine." 

Ironically, in some Jung-derived theories such as John Beebe's model as well as Augusta's, all of the Thinking types are at a minimum very good with both of the Thinking functions.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Figure said:


> There are probably, if I had to guess, more female Te


Definitely. 

I'd say the F/T breakdown for women in general is probably from 65% to 75% F over T. And of those T types in women, I would use approximately the same breakdown in favor of TJ, making TP women as a whole pretty rare. I do believe however that of the 4 TP types, ESTP is the most common in women.


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## Forest Nymph (Aug 25, 2018)

This is interesting because I think Fi types are more likely to "fight the power" than an Fe type ,so on that I DEFINITELY agree with you. Most of my major life struggles that don' t involve personal survival involve dealing with some Fe type - usually professors who think what they're doing is super awesome and excellent and sometimes it's great and sometimes it's like "you might as well be a motel in Hollywood where I have to hold my breath to get my degree." Because a lot of professors are self-centered and spoiled by their position, and they think Fe is something to impose on other people in a 9 year old princess girl way, and I think thoughts like "this person should be teaching elementary school not college" and "well I just don't care I'm only literally doing this for my grade." And Fe types think they're so awesome and special and in control and a lot of times people are literally only doing it for their degree or to get along with their family or they're literally like a factory, fast-food or prostitute worker trying to survive, and all of these people are doing this to LIVE and that 's why America is wrong what sort of country wants these sort of desperate lies?

Te I don't know I think of it as masculine, but I guess so. If men don't get things done I literally don't sleep with them. Like nerdy gamer dudes are complete trash to me. Useless males are the lowest to me, because useless females at least can raise children, useless mailes are usually just selfish. 


I can see Te as practical though because nature is practical. If you study ecosystems, everything has its place, everything works together, nature is more efficient than art, and that's the truth.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

Stevester said:


> I do believe however that of the 4 TP types, ESTP is the most common in women.


Dunno about most common. Definitely most noticeable. They leave an impression. You either love it or you loathe it.



Forest Nymph said:


> This is interesting because I think Fi types are more likely to "fight the power" than an Fe type


I think this is more stereotypically NF. ENFJs in particular are good at swaying people to a cause. MLK being the shining example.



Forest Nymph said:


> Te I don't know I think of it as masculine, but I guess so. If men don't get things done I literally don't sleep with them. Like nerdy gamer dudes are complete trash to me. Useless males are the lowest to me, because useless females at least can raise children, useless mailes are usually just selfish.


You're the best example of an ISFP Fi-Se on this site. Never change. This is not sarcasm, btw.



Strelnikov said:


> Since we all use both F and T functions... I don't think there's any point to calling them masculine or feminine. I have an ENFJ friend and he's as manly as anyone and I know another ENTJ who (in private, but never in public) is rather effeminate. So it's not as clear cut as that.


Yeah. It isn't. Most of the biggest toughest guys I know are ESFJs. Still manlier than 99% of the pop.


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## Xool Xecutioner (Jul 8, 2018)

Stevester said:


> Definitely.
> 
> I'd say the F/T breakdown for women in general is probably from 65% to 75% F over T. And of those T types in women, I would use approximately the same breakdown in favor of TJ, making TP women as a whole pretty rare. I do believe however that of the 4 TP types, * ESTP is the most common in women.*


*

Actually, according to this graph 






, ENTPs are the most common TP types in women, with ESTPs being the second most (INTPs being third and ISTPs being fourth and last). 
Anyway, I doubt Te is more feminine than Ti just because of women preferring extraversion more than men (and not "to be practical, result-driven, etc"). In the T/F masculinity/femininity dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Fe being the most feminine and Te being the most masculine), while the introverted functions are relatively androgynous (Ti being somewhat masculine and Fi being somewhat feminine). An extraverted function doesn't necessarily work like in a vacuum; it is influenced by the diametrically opposed, introverted function (Fe being influenced by Ti, and Te being influenced by Fi). This helps the Je users to self-analzye and see what is wrong with the Je function decision. In essence, Fe will feel somewhat more masculine with Ti and Te will feel more feminine with Fi. This is consistent with Jung's anima and amimus if we are primarily focusing on the synergies of functions (and not necessarily the sex). 
Another thing to add: Intuition is feminine while sensing is masculine. Like with the T/F dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Se being the most masculine and Ne being the most feminine), while the introverted functions functions are relatively androgynous (Si being somewhat masculine and Ni being somewhat feminine).*


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## Temizzle (May 14, 2017)

morgandollar said:


> Do you think women tend to use Te more and men use Ti more? It seems way more common, for example, for men to blurt out random facts in a Ti fashion than women (for example, the "walking dictionary" type is almost always a guy).
> 
> Also I find women tend to be more practical and result-oriented, which Te users generally are. They're more likely to see categorizing different things for fun (like the decadeology in the Generations forums here) as being stupid, compared to men. Ti users, like men, are more prone to making generalizations and mental masturbation.
> 
> Similary, I think Fi is more feminine and Fe is more masculine, even though the conventional wisdom says otherwise. Fi is more directly connected to affective empathy while Fe users are more interested in image, reciprocation, and social dominance, all of which are higher priority to males. The most common type for women seems to be Fi-using ESFPs and the lower-Fe using TPs are the most male-dominated compared to the TJs, FPs, and FJs.


Mmm I think first of all Te is more masculine, second of all, the more feminine would be Fe, so Ti by association. 

You said it yourself: results-orientation, pragmatism, etc. 

Man's role is to provide resources. Generating memes and overanalyzing the structure of language doesn't generally equate to gathering resources. 

/thread


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## Temizzle (May 14, 2017)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> Actually, according to this graph
> View attachment 811295
> , ENTPs are the most common TP types in women, with ESTPs being the second most (INTPs being third and ISTPs being fourth and last).
> Anyway, I doubt Te is more feminine than Ti just because of women preferring extraversion more than men (and not "to be practical, result-driven, etc"). In the T/F masculinity/femininity dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Fe being the most feminine and Te being the most masculine), while the introverted functions are relatively androgynous (Ti being somewhat masculine and Fi being somewhat feminine). An extraverted function doesn't necessarily work like in a vacuum; it is influenced by the diametrically opposed, introverted function (Fe being influenced by Ti, and Te being influenced by Fi). This helps the Je users to self-analzye and see what is wrong with the Je function decision. In essence, Fe will feel somewhat more masculine with Ti and Te will feel more feminine with Fi. This is consistent with Jung's anima and amimus if we are primarily focusing on the synergies of functions (and not necessarily the sex).
> Another thing to add: Intuition is feminine while sensing is masculine. Like with the T/F dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Se being the most masculine and Ne being the most feminine), while the introverted functions functions are relatively androgynous (Si being somewhat masculine and Ni being somewhat feminine).


Nice graph but being male does not equate with masculinity.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

T said:


> Man's role is to provide resources. Generating memes and overanalyzing the structure of language doesn't generally equate to gathering resources.


So I guess it sucks to be an NT, then? :laughing:


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## Temizzle (May 14, 2017)

Bastard said:


> So I guess it sucks to be an NT, then? :laughing:


No, no it really doesn't.


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## Bastard (Feb 4, 2018)

T said:


> No, no it really doesn't.


My apologies. You spouted baseless stereotypes, so I figured we were punching on the nerds. :laughing:

But I guess we only do that when it makes us feel good.


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## Temizzle (May 14, 2017)

Bastard said:


> My apologies. You spouted baseless stereotypes, so I figured we were punching on the nerds. :laughing:
> 
> But I guess we only do that when it makes us feel good.


Ah, well, stereotypes always have some sort of base now don’t they?


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

Figure said:


> There are probably, if I had to guess, more female Te users than there are female Ti. If there was a way to prove that then yes, Te is more feminine by the OP's definition than is Ti. I'd venture to say it is true because, anecdotally, I've met a lot more ISTP and ESTP men than women. INTP and ENTP are closer to 50-50, but then again they're fewer on the whole than the STP's.


Yes, INTP and ENTP women seem to be more common than the stats about MBTI suggest, despite being Ti and Fe users. INTP women do seem kinda different in some respects from us INTP guys though, they seem less likely to engage in withdrawal/schizotypal type behavior, and they seem to tend towards being more assertive. I'm particularly thinking of comparing myself to my sister who is also INTP but is a lot more active and social than I am.



Figure said:


> You'd be hard pressed to find a resource that claims Te is archetypally a "feminine" function. Te women often get accused of and stereotyped as being the corporate go-getter, ice queen, not-really-a-woman sorts, just as Te men get accused of being mean, angry, ruthless, obsessed with money, and belligerent. Te in general is associated with productivity and efficiency (though I contest that stereotype greatly), whereas it's the Feelers who get a wrap for being delicate and dainty, not able to handle being reamed by brutal Te people. All of these stereotypes are of course completely ridiculous despite being validated by so-called "credible" MBTI authors.


Very true. I think female Ti users (at least those who use Ti dominantly) get even more flack though. Te users in some ways conform more to feminine norms; for example they tend to have more interest in fashion and a lot of people do admire "Queen Bee" type women. I think TP women are more likely to be seen negatively, labeled "*****" or whatnot.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> Actually, according to this graph
> View attachment 811295
> , ENTPs are the most common TP types in women, with ESTPs being the second most (INTPs being third and ISTPs being fourth and last).
> Anyway, I doubt Te is more feminine than Ti just because of women preferring extraversion more than men (and not "to be practical, result-driven, etc"). In the T/F masculinity/femininity dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Fe being the most feminine and Te being the most masculine), while the introverted functions are relatively androgynous (Ti being somewhat masculine and Fi being somewhat feminine). An extraverted function doesn't necessarily work like in a vacuum; it is influenced by the diametrically opposed, introverted function (Fe being influenced by Ti, and Te being influenced by Fi). This helps the Je users to self-analzye and see what is wrong with the Je function decision. In essence, Fe will feel somewhat more masculine with Ti and Te will feel more feminine with Fi. This is consistent with Jung's anima and amimus if we are primarily focusing on the synergies of functions (and not necessarily the sex).
> Another thing to add: Intuition is feminine while sensing is masculine. Like with the T/F dichotomy, the extraverted functions are extreme (Se being the most masculine and Ne being the most feminine), while the introverted functions functions are relatively androgynous (Si being somewhat masculine and Ni being somewhat feminine).


I don't put a whole lot of stock into those percentages. The reason why is because I think the MBTI test has some flaws when it comes to determining type. In particular, I think women's general tendency towards Conscientiousness is responsible for them being more likely to get "J" type results, but if you tested based on function I think women actually might lean more towards P. This is why ESFJs and ISFJ women are over-counted in the stats imo, when ISFPs and ESFPs are probably more common. Women tend to be more adaptable to change than men. Autistic people, who are predominately male, are more likely to be J (though a lot of them are also INTPs). Strong adherence to routine is very J.

Same with Sensing and Intuition, I don't think men are really more intuitive I think they're just more likely to view themselves as intuitives because the answers that suggest Intuition on the tests imply a person who is more "deep". If anything women seem to trust/rely on their gut feels more, people talk about "women's intuition" for a reason.


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

T said:


> Man's role is to provide resources. Generating memes and overanalyzing the structure of language doesn't generally equate to gathering resources.
> 
> /thread


It's funny, I'm an INTP and I'm thoroughly bored by memes. My ESFP brother in law loves them. Then again, I am almost 30, so maybe that's why I don't care for them.


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## Janna (Aug 31, 2018)

A bit off-topic, but I was told by an MBTI lecturer that although your type is usually consistent throughout your life, the one exception is pregnancy: the hormones tend to make pregnant women temporarily more F than they usually are.


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## Electra (Oct 24, 2014)

The way I understood Helen Fisher's science Testosterone is often tied to Thinking and Estrogen & oxytocin is often tied to Feeling. Dopamine is somehow possibly linked to iNtuition and Serotonine somehow to Judging. According to neuroscience the way I understood Dario Nardi; Ti is tied to the earias in the middle of the upper brain (Not directly to prefrontal cortex but a little below, if I understand it right.) Check out the difference between "Maria"s brain and "Ross"' brain. Ross is ESTP and is a Ti-user and Ti is supposed to be up in the middle in red, 3 parts.

View attachment 811715


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

The reason all seems convoluted is so simple, humans are (almost always) biological gender first and personality trait second.

If you look at it that way you will no longer wonder.

_Sent sans PC_


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

I actually think introversion is more essentially feminine and extroversion more essentially masculine. Which would make Fi and Ti more feminine, and Te and Fe more masculine. I think this is more pronounced with Fi/Fe though. Fi strikes me as extremely feminine in nature.

That being said, I don't know about which gender uses what more. I view that in more of an abstract sense.


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## Ocean Helm (Aug 25, 2016)

contradictionary said:


> The reason all seems convoluted is so simple, humans are (almost always) biological gender first and personality trait second.
> 
> If you look at it that way you will no longer wonder.
> 
> _Sent sans PC_


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

morgandollar said:


> It's funny, I actually find the TJs tend to be bigger hardasses than the TPs. It's true they are more moralistic than TPs generally speaking, but I think TJs are more prone to schadenfreude and sadism when they act cruel. TPs are more likely to be cruel just out of indifference IMO.
> 
> That only applies to the ones that are jerks though. I have an INTP/ENTP sister, and a good ISTJ friend, and both of them are very nice. The ISTJ is more sensitive but in some ways my sister is more unselfish. I mean like, my ISTJ friend is really affectionate about his elderly cats and is always saying how concerned he is for their health and well being, and he's a good friend, will always offer to buy dinner when we go out, but he also always talks about himself and gets really pissed off when he isn't given good service. My NTP sister says she is not very warm on the inside but she'll do things like get her friend a coffee and walk a mile to deliver it to them, and she almost never expresses real anger.
> 
> I think people underrate the loyalty of many TPs.


I can't see myself in either schadenfreude or sadism. I don't do schadenfreude out of principle actually, and sadism seems like just a bad thing too plus I have no desire for such a thing. Yeah I know you said only jerks do this... But I'm pretty insensitive other than that and I would do the sort of thing your NTP sister does, and I have done so many times for a friend. That friend was where I would sometimes feel more warm or affectionate internally too actually than usual (though still not the warm cuddle bear thing). But I would never talk about in public about how concerned I am about someone I care about, only if it's not too public a situation. But then again I also do this thing with being pissed off if I'm not given a good service (though ENTJ I know will get pissed off about more, more nitpicky about service). And I express anger very easily (though usually constrained compared to true hot-headed anger).

Dunno, looks like these patterns don't really relate to type or functions all that much...


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

grumpytiger said:


> Dunno, looks like these patterns don't really relate to type or functions all that much...


Yeah, you're probably right.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

BlackDog said:


> I actually think introversion is more essentially feminine and extroversion more essentially masculine


Actually, many people believe that women tend to be more extroverted than men. Because they are more likely to be social creatures, dependent on others and whatnot. I mean, just look at your facebook wall......at least 70% of mundane posts such as _''I'm at this restaurant and feel the need to share it for some reason...''_ posts come from women. 

Call me a misogynist jerk but I find that men tend to be _''all or nothing''_ by contrast when it comes to attacking the outside world, in that either they are insufferable, smothering dicks or they take the asocial route. But women just seem socially fluid one way or the other.


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## BlackDog (Jan 6, 2012)

Stevester said:


> Actually, many people believe that women tend to be more extroverted than men. Because they are more likely to be social creatures, dependent on others and whatnot. I mean, just look at your facebook wall......at least 70% of mundane posts such as _''I'm at this restaurant and feel the need to share it for some reason...''_ posts come from women.
> 
> Call me a misogynist jerk but I find that men tend to be _''all or nothing''_ by contrast when it comes to attacking the outside world, in that either they are insufferable, smothering dicks or they take the asocial route. But women just seem socially fluid one way or the other.


I don’t see the functions in terms of who is more likely to be social or outgoing. They’re more about being inwardly or outwardly directed. The female archetype is inwardly directed, a source of intrinsic value. The male archetype is outwardly directed, valuable insofar as he is utilitarian. This is illustrated by the symbols for male (outward point, like an arrow) and female (inward point). 

I think that Fi/Fe and Ti/Te fit this pattern. Fi is a source of value, Fe acknowledges an external structure. Ti values internal consistency, Te values objective data. They strike me as essentially feminine/masculine.


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## Dare (Nov 8, 2016)

People have different ideas of what's feminine to begin with. Is it the bubbly girl/woman with big smile or the shy sensitive one? Is it the selfless nurturer or the one looking for protection? Is it the passive people pleaser or the ice queen who only melts in the presence of a particular man and puppies? Is it the one who is always sweet or the one who changes with circumstance? Is it the open woman or the one who could be opened?

In my view archetype femininity doesn't give, it only 'gives back' (an initial act of giving symbolizes leadership and possibly protection). For this reason, I see Fi self-valuers as more feminine than Fe harmonizers. Not that I see Fe as masculine, just a step closer in that direction (the same way I see mothering). 

I can't say I don't find TP men masculine, some come across as extremely masculine in some ways (think James Bond), but to me there is ultimately something missing when compared to (my view of) the masculine archetype. I find Te the most masculine function bc it's more a balanced combination of being both a thinker and doer. TJ men overall also seem more natural leaders and protective (in a comprehensive way) compared with TPs. No doubt enneagram will be factor.

In other words I see the Te/Fi axis as containing the extremes of masculinity and femininity where Ti/Fe is less polarized and falls somewhere in the middle. Of course so much comes down to the individual (and how well they embrace "biology is destiny").


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

I can only see this issue related to dichotomies, not functions; T = masculine, F = feminine, and Te is more overtly masculine bc of the visibility of extraversion, while Fe is more overtly feminine for the same reason, compared to Ti and Fi, respectively, but Ti and Fi are just as masculine vs feminine imo, just introversion shows less of it.


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## Khadroma (Feb 4, 2017)

Back from the dead, y'all.




Bastard said:


> Jung called feeling feminine and thinking masculine.
> 
> I think the caricature is useless.


^ This.

To expand on this, if you're genuinely a thinking type, you utilize both Te AND Ti with greater proficiency than you do either of the feeling function. It's just that you value one over the other (ie; an ExTP is good at Te; they just like/prefer Ti a lot more.)

Thus, I think this: 



> It seems way more common, for example, for men to blurt out random facts in a Ti fashion than women (for example, the "walking dictionary" type is almost always a guy).


^ is a bit of a stretch.


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## series0 (Feb 18, 2013)

morgandollar said:


> Do you think women tend to use Te more and men use Ti more? It seems way more common, for example, for men to blurt out random facts in a Ti fashion than women (for example, the "walking dictionary" type is almost always a guy).
> 
> Also I find women tend to be more practical and result-oriented, which Te users generally are. They're more likely to see categorizing different things for fun (like the decadeology in the Generations forums here) as being stupid, compared to men. Ti users, like men, are more prone to making generalizations and mental masturbation.
> 
> Similary, I think Fi is more feminine and Fe is more masculine, even though the conventional wisdom says otherwise. Fi is more directly connected to affective empathy while Fe users are more interested in image, reciprocation, and social dominance, all of which are higher priority to males. The most common type for women seems to be Fi-using ESFPs and the lower-Fe using TPs are the most male-dominated compared to the TJs, FPs, and FJs.


Holy crap! This is so judgy and unfair, cruel to men and Ti in its absurdity and lack of wisdom.

You do not mention that you are expressing stereotypes which means you are immorally applying that label to the whole group, an error in judgement as well. So judgy, but lacking in proper judgement. Not a great combination, and very condescending, the real definition.

You ascribe all negative aspects of these functions to men and all positive ones to women. Your agenda and your clownish sense of the world is easy to see. You need some serious work on your understanding and attitude. If you are not young, you are not doing well at all on your path to truth seeking.

Each cognitive function on its own is just as useful as an other, of course. And exemplars of each function are equally immoral and moral in terms of whole population samples. I think you will even find, much to your dismay, that amid each gender there similar sections of a curve of men and women above and below the moral mean. But like all things gender related, that will mean that more men are at the extremes on both ends of the curve and more women in the middle, giving rise to a limited perception of the stereotypes, which you just delivered. 

Ah well, there is no accounting for taste. Desire is just chaos.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

I relate high degrees of 'skepticism' to women/females. I would consider Ti - 'feminine' because high-functioning skeptic traits.

I would consider Te 'masculine' because it is dogmatic, and males tend to be more dogmatic than skeptic (via) male/female distinctions.


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## Xool Xecutioner (Jul 8, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> I relate high degrees of 'skepticism' to women/females. I would consider Ti - 'feminine' because high-functioning skeptic traits.
> 
> I would consider Te 'masculine' because it is dogmatic, and males tend to be more dogmatic than skeptic (via) male/female distinctions.


Ti isn't more masculine than Te, but it isn't more feminine either. It is relatively androgynous (somewhat masculine). Women are naturally (at least supposedly) empathetic , nurturing, caring, gentle, compassionate, tolerant, and submissive. No where does it say or imply that being skeptic is a trait of femininity. In the feeling/thinking dichotomy, feeling is feminine and thinking is masculine, with the extraverted functions being the extreme (Te being most masculine and Fe being most feminine) while the introverted functions are relatively androgynous (Ti being somewhat masculine, Fi being somewhat feminine). 
Likewise with sensing and intuition, sensing is masculine and intuition is feminine, with the extraverted functions being the extreme and introverted functions being relatively androgynous.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> Ti isn't more masculine than Te, but it isn't more feminine either. It is relatively androgynous (somewhat masculine). Women are naturally (at least supposedly) empathetic , nurturing, caring, gentle, compassionate, tolerant, and submissive. No where does it say or imply that being skeptic is a trait of femininity.


I do not really find Ti all that masculine - (introverted) functions will be more likely to be utilized by female-specimens. When it comes a lot women probably utilize Ti and Fi. Female specimens are the skeptics of nature. They are careful, cautious, skeptical, introgative, *Socratic-thinkers* - (e.g. --> Coorperative thinkers). 

This probably explains all the ISFJ women. They are all Fe-Ti.

Males are naturally more dogmatic. authoritarian and proposing empty truths with conviction, less skeptical, etc. Like Aristotle. (e.g., High disagreeableness). Te. 

I agree though that both Fe and Fi are feminine functions if we're going by the gender divide between T/F. I find Fe men to have many feminine traits. Even ESTP men. They have social intelligence, grandiosity and social prowess which I [personally] consider a feminine trait. This is why they are lucky with the ladies.


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## Cobble (Dec 6, 2016)

I wouldn't worry too much about these "subjective" feminine/masculine distinction. 

It's not because a someone considers Ti as "feminine" and Te as "masculine" that Ti-users males should feel hurt about their masculinity and everything that implies -like, ability to find a mate partner or something- and vice versa. Whatever function you have, if you have a dick, you're sexually a male, if you have a vagina, you're sexually a female. And if you have none of that, there's probably an existing word I have yet to discover.


It makes me think that our vision of femininity or masculinity (as gender expectations) can be both influenced by early experiences, social expectations, (and sex/romantic expectations) anyway. 

Despite being a woman, I know that I'm weirdly misogynous because of my (early/current) interaction with my crazy mother/sister. As a child, I associated : "my female family figures" with "females" so "females"= "crazy, unreliable and dangerous" while "my family male figures" = "males" = "cool, reliable and reassuring". 

After meeting a lot of wonderful women and unhealthy men outside my family realm, I discovered that this early vision of wo/men was totally false. But even if I know it's false, it's a childhood belief that still sticks deeply in my mind, whether I like it or not. Any healthy females will be labelled male-gendered by the child me while any unhealthy male will be labelled female-gendered by the child me. (note : here, "(un)healthy" definition based on my early childhood pattern.)

Having developed my identity by using my female family figures as "counter examples", and my male family figures as "examples", Child-me also identifies myself more as "male" gendered than as "female" gendered. Sadly, I think/feel that my weird misogyny will disappear only when my mom/sis will die - literally or figuratively. 

When it came to function, since healthy males from my family use strongly all judging functions (Fe/Ti/Te/Fi), I associated none of these functions with femininity nor masculinity.



So that makes me wonder, 
*How did you all build your vision of femininity and masculinity ?*


edit : @grumpytiger : Mind to share it ? I read so many personal development things and did so many changes, but despite how much I changed, deeeep inside me, this one thing didn't really bulge.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Cobble said:


> But even if I know it's false, it's a childhood belief that still sticks deeply in my mind, whether I like it or not.


Afaik there are ways to change such things


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## Xool Xecutioner (Jul 8, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> I do not really find Ti all that masculine -


I said _relatively androgynous (somewhat masculine)_ , not _ALL_ masculine. 



> (introverted) functions will be more likely to be utilized by female-specimens. When it comes a lot women probably utilize Ti and Fi. Female specimens are the skeptics of nature.


I can understand that the introverted functions are subjective and more impractical than extraverted functions, thus they appear more feminine to you. But this isn't necessarily true with Ti (and Si). A hunter/warrior would find Ti more useful than Te because it is looking for logical validity through a subjective framework and not from instruction or direction. In other words, it is thinking on X through Y or Z (the subjective frameworks). I think Se makes Ti have a practical sense and more grounded in reality than Ne (which makes Ti more impractical). Plus, it makes Ti contextual. 



> They are careful, cautious, skeptical, introgative, *Socratic-thinkers* - (e.g. --> Coorperative thinkers).


Considering the Ti-Fe axis and the relation between the two functions, I would not say that Ti-Fe isn't more egalitarian and harmonious than Fi-Te, but I would say that extraverted functions are not excluded from being influenced. Ti expresses itself through Fe; Fi does so too through Te. The introverted function provides a sense of support and introspection to the extraverted function in an axis. It's what makes Fe doms logically consistent and Te doms morally right.



> This probably explains all the ISFJ women. They are all Fe-Ti.


Or it's because of Si-Ne. Like Ti-Fe, Si-Ne are fair-minded and egalitarian.



> Males are naturally more dogmatic. authoritarian and proposing empty truths with conviction, less skeptical, etc. Like Aristotle. (e.g., High disagreeableness). Te.


In other words, a less rational person who goes by dogma? Y'know, that itself isn't exclusive from Fe (a highly feminine function). As matter of fact, in some contexts, that (being dogmatic) is more feminine than critical thinking. With critical thinking, you're not abiding so much on social reasoning of X and the institutionalized thinking. 




> I agree though that both Fe and Fi are feminine functions if we're going by the gender divide between T/F. I find Fe men to have many feminine traits. Even ESTP men. They have social intelligence, grandiosity and social prowess which I [personally] consider a feminine trait. This is why they are lucky with the ladies.


I admit that I act nice to people that I am usually rude to. Mostly out of respect or harmony-desire. Even in a war, you need rest. This doesn't mean, however, that xSTPs (xNTPs are too androgynous, but this still argues for them) are feminine. Rather, they know how to use the feminine energy of Fe. This doesn't make them feminine like FJs, and FPs using Te doesn't make them masculine like TJs either. 

Honestly, I would class Se and Te most masculine, Ti and Si somewhat (or if it is better for you, marginally) masculine; Fi and Ni somewhat feminine, and Fe and Ne most feminine.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> I admit that I act nice to people that I am usually rude to. Mostly out of respect or harmony-desire. Even in a war, you need rest. This doesn't mean, however, that xSTPs (xNTPs are too androgynous, but this still argues for them) are feminine. Rather, they know how to use the feminine energy of Fe. This doesn't make them feminine like FJs, and FPs using Te doesn't make them masculine like TJs either.
> 
> Honestly, I would class Se and Te most masculine, Ti and Si somewhat (or if it is better for you, marginally) masculine; Fi and Ni somewhat feminine, and Fe and Ne most feminine.


For me,

Function wise:
Ti, Fi, Si, Ni = feminine
Te, Se, Ne, Fe = masculine

Dichtonomy there is no "cognitive functions":

So,
T = masculine
F = feminine

_________

I'm too lazy to respond to the rest atm, but it was a nice read.


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## Stevester (Feb 28, 2016)

Nuh huh! Ne sees things beyond gender labels, bitches! It will not submit to titles such as _''masculine''_ and _''feminine''_.


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## grumpytiger (Feb 23, 2016)

Cobble said:


> edit : @grumpytiger : Mind to share it ? I read so many personal development things and did so many changes, but despite how much I changed, deeeep inside me, this one thing didn't really bulge.


There are therapy techniques aimed specifically at this - one version I recall now is about hypnosis including self-hypnosis, another one I saw in a scientific study (Lefkoe), but I saw other methods too. I'm sure Google is best friend on this one too


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## Abbaladon Arc V (Jan 16, 2018)

Fe Yes but not Ti. 

LOL


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## Thunal33 (Oct 22, 2018)

I think it's more that women tend to use Feeling more and men tend to use Thinking more. I haven't really noticed a correlation between Te/Ti and gender.


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## Xool Xecutioner (Jul 8, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> For me,
> 
> Function wise:
> Ti, Fi, Si, Ni = feminine
> ...


Y'know you just contradicted yourself that Fe is feminine when you just said on this post that it is masculine. What? Relative to which, Fi? Fi doesn't abide to majority's will, is totally subjective regarding care and nutrient, and honestly, it can be cold selfish-ly. Really, I wouldn't call that more feminine than Fe. Feminine, but not more than Fe. And to Ti? Just lol. 

Really, I'm just saying that _Ti isn't more masculine than Te, but it isn't totally not masculine. It is somewhat masculine. You saying that it is naturally used by females (which has no evidence to show and I have plenty of counter evidences to show otherwise) and likely by them is nothing more than a baseless assertion.





Stevester said:



Nuh huh! Ne sees things beyond gender labels, bitches! It will not submit to titles such as ''masculine'' and ''feminine''.

Click to expand...

Behaviorally speaking, Ne emits a childish vibe, more open-minded than Se, more indecisive than Se (but Se is not decisive itself, it just amplifies the decisive-ness), and less focused than Se (comparatively speaking). Plus, it treats all ideas equally and is tolerant, which is consistent with the traits of femininity (the introverted judging function filter the ideas and are actually less feminine in that regard). 

Of course, this doesn't mean NTPs are extremely feminine because (Ti moderates the femininity of Ne), but rather androgynous. Ne is extremely feminine (like Fe) for the reasons I stated above, and maybe in your experience, you may agree._


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## Haludh (Jul 6, 2016)

Since Te is related to the accumulation of data, wouldn't a "walking dictionary" be a Te user? Ti attempts to understand concepts, not memorize definitions, right?

I haven't noticed a correlation between gender and the functions except that most of the people I know are Te-Fi users, and most of the people I know are men.


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## Catwalk (Aug 12, 2015)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> Y'know you just contradicted yourself that Fe is feminine when you just said on this post that it is masculine. What? Relative to which, Fi? Fi doesn't abide to majority's will, is totally subjective regarding care and nutrient, and honestly, it can be cold selfish-ly. Really, I wouldn't call that more feminine than Fe. Feminine, but not more than Fe. And to Ti? Just lol.
> 
> Really, I'm just saying that _Ti isn't more masculine than Te, but it isn't totally not masculine. It is somewhat masculine. You saying that it is naturally used by females (which has no evidence to show and I have plenty of counter evidences to show otherwise) and likely by them is nothing more than a baseless assertion.
> _


_

Oh shit. Woops._


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## Xool Xecutioner (Jul 8, 2018)

Catwalk said:


> Oh shit. Woops.


Lol. You just made me neurotic there.


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## contradictionary (Apr 1, 2018)

Alivingobituary42 said:


> Lol. You just made me neurotic there.


Imho, generally men tend to be more reflective and introvert with their mind, they don't readily and easily express nor talks on their thoughts (nor their feelings). Women, vice versa.

So if i put them in spectrum of masculinity, the T/F axis will be like this:

Ti >> Te >> Fi >> Fe

And due to men tendency to focus in the now while women more to the past then the N/S axis will be like this (with both N as androgynous):
Se >> Ne / Ni >> Si



_Sent sans PC_


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## ANAXEL (Feb 16, 2017)

Is there, at all, proof that functions and gender have any correlation at all?
Sorry if I'm being ignorant, and I'd love it if anyone would correct me.

My theory has been that the manifestation of functions is facilitated according to culture.
In your ideal image of an american family, you have an Fe-dom wife, a Ti-dom husband, an Se-Ti boy and an Se-Fi (or Fi-Se) girl.
Ideals ignore any exceptional traits in a person and collects the ones that support it.
It doesn't matter if a woman displays an argument with T or F or S or N, the answer from another man who doesn't know any better may always be "...bah, women, who can understand them?". The same happens otherwise.
I hear a lot of people in real life attributing several things to gender, but there's never a pattern in what they are attributing.
I have met an equal amount of T and F women. Same for men.
But I personally don't see much of a correlation function wise.


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## nablur (Mar 9, 2017)

morgandollar said:


> Do you think women tend to use Te more and men use Ti more? It seems way more common, for example, for men to blurt out random facts in a Ti fashion than women (for example, the "walking dictionary" type is almost always a guy).
> 
> Also I find women tend to be more practical and result-oriented, which Te users generally are. They're more likely to see categorizing different things for fun (like the decadeology in the Generations forums here) as being stupid, compared to men. Ti users, like men, are more prone to making generalizations and mental masturbation.
> 
> Similary, I think Fi is more feminine and Fe is more masculine, even though the conventional wisdom says otherwise. Fi is more directly connected to affective empathy while Fe users are more interested in image, reciprocation, and social dominance, all of which are higher priority to males. The most common type for women seems to be Fi-using ESFPs and the lower-Fe using TPs are the most male-dominated compared to the TJs, FPs, and FJs.


heres the rough worldwide distribution (various psychologists cite this) : 

70 % of men are thinkers (Te/Ti dom/2nd)
30 % of women are thinkers

30 % of men are feelers (Fe/Fi dom/2nd)
70 % of women are feelers


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

I agree that T is stereotypically masculine and F feminine, but for female Ts are Ti women more (or less) feminine than Te women?



some famous thinker women:


intj: ayn rand, jodie foster?
istj: theresa may, hillary clinton?, queen elizabeth, natalie portman?
entj: katherine hepburn, charlize theron?
estj: margaret thatcher, ann coulter, megyn kelly

intp: tina fey, jane austin?
istp: melania trump, scarlett johansson, demi moore?
entp: rachel maddow, salma hayek?, amy poehler
estp: angelina jolie, mila kunis, miley cyrus



this is hardly an exhaustive list but based on it and my own impressions I would say Ti women are more feminine than Te*...this is probably cuz Te is extroverted and impels TJ women to take control of their environment, a stereotypically masculine behavior...TP women, otoh, are extroverted _perceivers_ who tend to _react, _often _spontaneously, _to their environments, a stereotypically feminine behavior




* this is not to say TJ women can't be or aren't feminine, only that _compared to TP women _they are _broadly speaking_ less so


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## morgandollar (Feb 21, 2018)

ae1905 said:


> I agree that T is stereotypically masculine and F feminine, but for female Ts are Ti women more (or less) feminine than Te women?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a good point. I think I changed my mind about my original premise actually. It's more common for women to have Ti in their stack than it is for men, even though men are more likely to lead or aux with Ti.

FJs have Ti and they make up about 40% of women. I think a lot of women who test as TJ are actually TPs as well, because women are socially conditioned to be more organized than men, and thus some women are likely to get "false J" results. Though that probably also affects the feeling end too - for example quite a few women who test as ISFJs are probably really (Te-using) ISFPs.

I also think thinking women in general are more common than the stats on MBTI suggest. Most sites suggest 25-30% of women are thinkers, but one study of Chinese women found that half preferred Thinking. I read plenty of stuff from INTP and INTJ women on Quora and in Facebook groups all the time even though those types are supposedly overwhelmingly male.


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## kiribek (Aug 5, 2018)

Depends on what you identify as feminine and masculine.
If we'd go by the Taoist definition of femininity and masculinity, then all extroversion would be masculine and all introversion would be feminine.
My understanding and connotations in regard to femininity is similar to the taoist view - it's a passive energy, that is withdrawn, nurturing, self-absorbed, self-referential, subjective. In which case, if we take functions individually, outside of their respective axis, then in the Ti/Te field, Ti would be feminine and Te would be masculine.
Same goes for Fi/Fe - Fi would be feminine (for the exact same reasons Ti is feminine) and Fe would be masculine.

However, nothing in the world is solely feminine or solely masculine. Everything is a mix of feminine and masculine energies (and the existence of axis with E functions balancing out I functions is self-evident to that). This goes beyond just the energy of functions and dichotomies.


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## ae1905 (Jun 7, 2014)

kiribek said:


> Depends on what you identify as feminine and masculine.
> If we'd go by the Taoist definition of femininity and masculinity, then all extroversion would be masculine and all introversion would be feminine.
> My understanding and connotations in regard to femininity is similar to the taoist view - it's a passive energy, that is withdrawn, nurturing, self-absorbed, self-referential, subjective. In which case, if we take functions individually, outside of their respective axis, then in the Ti/Te field, Ti would be feminine and Te would be masculine.
> Same goes for Fi/Fe - Fi would be feminine (for the exact same reasons Ti is feminine) and Fe would be masculine.
> ...




I considered Fe but the difference is its focus is on people and their feelings, making it feminine


Fi, otoh, might be likened to the way men bottle up feelings, keeping it to themselves


so the yin and yang of F is flipped compared to T


and Fe-Ti may be said to be feminine and Te-Fi masculine


which leads to the same conclusion, viz, TJ women are more masculine than TP women


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