# Is Sx/Sp the "emo" instinctual variant?



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

obviously, not all Sx/Sps are emo and not all emo people are Sx/Sps, but it's a rather strong correlation I've noticed (self included lol).


----------



## rawrmosher (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm Sx/Sp and I tend to go with the emo/scene/alternative vibe ^_^. 
I think type 7's in general are likely to be alternative, along with 4's.

edit: ok, retook it and now I'm Sx/So. guess I'm kind of tied between the types or something. I tend to be really social when I'm with the right people, but if I'm not I can be pretty standoffish.


----------



## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Possibly, given that the top 2 instincts are always somewhat in conflict. Add to that the energy of the 4 (or any of the frustration types for that matter) and it almost becomes a stereotype.


----------



## Schweeeeks (Feb 12, 2013)

Bah!
I was Goth/Punk.
I do brood wayyy too much though.


----------



## MissyMaroon (Feb 24, 2010)

Hm, not necessarily. They certainly can be. I think many are actually quite stable, well-adjusted people. SX will bring out more addictive tendencies, I suppose, and *can* be unstable in itself, but if anything, the SP should stabilize it more than the more volatile SX/SO, theoretically speaking.


----------



## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

MissyMaroon said:


> Hm, not necessarily. They certainly can be. I think many are actually quite stable, well-adjusted people. SX will bring out more addictive tendencies, I suppose, and *can* be unstable in itself, but if anything, the SP should stabilize it more than the more volatile SX/SO, theoretically speaking.


Sx/So is more the drama queen. Emo types are withdrawn and "leave me the fuck alone" but still subconsciously calling out for attention from the right people. also, Sx/So is typically less dark than Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx (Sp/Sx is probably the second most emo type)


----------



## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> Emo types are withdrawn and "leave me the fuck alone" but still subconsciously calling out for attention from the right people.


Thanks for defining "emo", I was wondering how would it be defined in this thread...  There's definitely something I relate to. 

Basically I consider myself extroverted, at least capable of being _very _extroverted. I can really enjoy inspiring group discussions, even be the most talkative one there and at times lead the conversation and come up with new topics, all this at least if the group is not big (< 7 people). Like some extroverts, I can easily chat with strangers and enjoy it tremendously but there's gotta be something that makes me interested, I won't do it just for others' entertainment.

But my interests can change so quickly, all of the sudden I might become _really_ bored and just disconnect myself, mentally leave the rest of the group chatting with each other and just focus on my own thoughts for an undefined time period. So, obviously, to others I can seem very extroverted but also very introverted, it totally depends on the situation. Especially if I'm surrounded by people I don't relate to _at all _or have any interest in, I'm exactly like what you described, withdrawn and "leave me the fuck alone" (me in many classes in high school where I felt I was surrounded by a bunch of idiots and couldn't relate to 97 % of the girls at all).

Btw, just to define this further, I wouldn't say I just call out for attention from the right people and wait for them to approach me, it's me who makes the first move when there's the right kind of person


----------



## Entropic (Jun 15, 2012)

Putting it this way, I am happy I am not a core sx 4 lol. I already have a lot of that pain and longing core 4 already causes, and then having sx desire on top of that. Ugh.


----------



## Stan the Woz (Apr 10, 2012)

Used to be kind of, not really anymore. But in general I can see it.


----------



## Whippit (Jun 15, 2012)

I voted.. occasionally. I can be a bit emo, but I think that's my 4 talking. I think the sx/sp contributes to my dodgy behavior.. it's less about being withdrawn and more about vacillating between extremes.


----------



## bombsaway (Nov 29, 2011)

I was a goth / emo back in the day but I suppose my motivations were different than the 'I'm a snowflake leave me alone'. There was initially a skater boy (stfu, Avril Lavigne) who wore a lot of black and had a HIM patch on his bag that got me into the scene originally. Then it briefly became 'cool'. After a while it stopped being cool and people went back to normal but I was still into the style / music and I didn't want to move on from that for a while because I enjoyed being part of a group and having that camaraderie and group identity. I suppose, whilst on the outside I was in that group, I was never really 'dark'. I was pissy as hell and slammed a lot of doors but didn't we all at that age. I can imagine the So dominant kept me from being isolated even with the Sx cries for attention.


----------



## Jerdle (Dec 30, 2015)

sp/sx 584. Sort of semi-mo!


----------



## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

Not into the scene (is it even a thing anymore?), but being emotional in a withdrawn/depressive way kinda comes with the territory of being an INFP 4w5. No one has ever actually called me that though.


----------



## Dangerose (Sep 30, 2014)

Opposite of sx/sp, maybe, wanted to answer though

I remember in high school we were all sitting in a group with friends and acquaintances, a usual lunch circle, and someone was assigning roles

To me it was "And you're the emo one!"

And I said, "Really, emo, me?"

And she said, "Yeah, no, no, you're not emo, but you're like 2 percent emo and the rest of us are 0 percent"

so no

I mean, context:


* *

















[dark hair]

My hair color is probably the thing making me seem emo in that group 
Though the girl who said it had dark hair too
edit: I'd think would be more emo?


----------



## J Squirrel (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm INTJ 531. If that doesn't scream "too emo to function" then I don't know what does.

*Grabs dark lipstick*


----------



## Jerdle (Dec 30, 2015)

INerdTP said:


> sp/sx 584. Sort of semi-mo!


I'm actually 684 sx/sp. And somewhat emo.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

You sure you didn't mean Sx/So?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

INerdTP said:


> I'm actually 684 sx/sp. And somewhat emo.


I was just about to ask...


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Not in the least!

Sx means exhibitionism (at the 7, 3, 4 even more). A quality in you, one of your Enneagrams becomes more pronounced in a way that it goes beyond the group dynamic - Sx/Sos become charismatic, Sx/Sps become rebells/stand out/weirdos for a sec than they realize that can't fight them all and then they pull down their heads until they again do something that throws people off (for not fitting in with the hierarchy, roles, turns, etc.).

Sx/Sps can be brooding but quietly. But there's more that independent lonewolf kinda feeling that also has that clinginess to it, that thirst for one-on-one interaction. Think Byronic heroes.

Sx/Sos have that thirst too but they hide it with charm and a lot of bluffing. They smoothly maneuver their way through their social network to the person they laid their eyes on. They're all diplomatic and appeal to the people + at times throw in some unconventional ideas that is put in a way that doesn't offend or intimidate the general whole. Whereas Sx/Sps burst in with the embarrassing raw facts of life (abject, underbelly of social-cultural sugarcoatings).


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Entropic said:


> Putting it this way, I am happy I am not a core sx 4 lol. I already have a lot of that pain and longing core 4 already causes, and then having sx desire on top of that. Ugh.


Lol, thanks! Actually, everyone has pain. Fours are just good at acknowledging it, and processing it, rather than avoiding. We might sometimes come across emo, but we are more resilient than you give us credit for.



Neokortex said:


> Not in the least!
> 
> Sx means exhibitionism (at the 7, 3, 4 even more). A quality in you, one of your Enneagrams becomes more pronounced in a way that it goes beyond the group dynamic - Sx/Sos become charismatic, Sx/Sps become rebells/stand out/weirdos for a sec than they realize that can't fight them all and then they pull down their heads until they again do something that throws people off (for not fitting in with the hierarchy, roles, turns, etc.).
> 
> ...


Thanks, you made that sound almost attractive. But for sure, I have always been a stand-out/weirdo, even in the rare moments I tried to blend in. Could be that I can only blend in so far, because my integrity is a rock wall, and if blending requires to go beyond, I hit that wall and bounce back.

I'm weird, in my own way. No community or dress code to go with it. Some people like it, which is fine, some people don't, which is also fine. However, I _am_ intense. And emotional. However, the emotional part is private, most of the time.


----------



## Aladdin Sane (May 10, 2016)

If you mean the actual emo trend that was going on, I really hated that era and couldnt wait for it to be over.


----------



## Nephilibata (Jan 21, 2015)

I don't know if I'd consider myself emo. If at all, then not like the stereotypical one, but more like...uh...a less vocal version. Very internalised. Has to do with my upbringing, actually 'emotions are annoying, meddling things, and childish, get rid of them'. So not much emo-ing for me, more like tightly held control and no emoting until I burst like a volcano. I cried a lot as a child and still do, I just hide it better. Most of the time. THAT's the most emo I ever am.



Neokortex said:


> Sx/Sps can be brooding but quietly. But there's more that independent lonewolf kinda feeling that also has that clinginess to it, that thirst for one-on-one interaction. Think Byronic heroes.


Huh. And here I was wondering if feeling and coming off as more independent meant being SP over SX. Your SX/SP description fits me pretty well though.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

Maybe. I think people who relate to being emo would gravitate toward sx/sp, in any case, and whether they're accurately typed is another thing altogether.


----------



## Wolf (Mar 20, 2016)

I generally relate more to Sp/Sx, but I sometimes feel that the line between those is blurred a bit.

I have been called and identified by others as "emo" numerous times. 

I'm not sure why this is exactly, but I have a few ideas. 

- Right between being healthy and underweight, I'm skin and bones for the most part. (Complicated diet & Appetite Issues)
- Long-ish Hair that is somewhat dark
- A few dark facial features
- Fi-user 
- RBF

I don't identify with a handful of the stereotypes directed at emo individuals, but I'm not the furthest thing from what I would consider to be emo either.


----------



## Mange (Jan 9, 2011)

literally emo? Ive always been more of an indie type. more like this
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Indie+Boy+Clothing&FORM=RESTAB

than this :vomit:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=emo&FORM=HDRSC2


----------



## throughtheroses (May 25, 2016)

Perhaps surprisingly, I was a pretty carefree and happy teenager. 

Now I'm an angst-ridden adult. (Not recommended.) I wouldn't _exactly_ call myself emo, though... I don't wear enough eyeliner. Haha. But I do tend to wallow in my own angst. I guess that counts?


----------



## Sylas (Jul 23, 2016)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> obviously, not all Sx/Sps are emo and not all emo people are Sx/Sps, but it's a rather strong correlation I've noticed (self included lol).


It's not emo, that implies some e4 and socionics "victim" type correlations, which don't apply to every Sx/Sp.

It's definitely processing everything in hyper-emotional manner. People who think sx=relationships have no clue -- its much greater and more extensive than that for those who have it as first insinct, like the all-pervasive dominant function in MBTI that you can never "shut off". Since the sx firsts tend to interpret everything in somewhat emotional manner, I've seen them being accused of being too emotional, too subjective, dramatic, altruistic, permissive, too provocative, too irrational, too clingy, and various similar emotional labels.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> Lol, thanks! Actually, everyone has pain. Fours are just good at acknowledging it, and processing it, rather than avoiding. We might sometimes come across emo, but we are more resilient than you give us credit for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's it! I've had an So/Sx girl telling me along those same lines why she liked me. Because I am a rock wall, I don't play the masquerade, hence she can have accurate feedback from me to get to know herself. She doesn't know herself to begin with because she's an ever changing, to everyone appealing chameleon. They need that rock wall for clarity.

My emotional aspects, a lot of my 4w3 emotions are very private. I realized that I conceal them the same ways social subtypes do: I talk about them with irony, self-deprecation as if I felt like they're not worth expressing, that I am to submit my emotional needs to the greater whole and let them recognize through indirect signals if I'm bleeding inside. My ST parents killed off the emotional self-expression in me so all I'm left with sarcasm and an adaptive nature to an extent - like, as emotions, I don't particularly adhere to any culture or language, I'm kinda like the shady salesman who learns pidgeon (=mixed parts of every) languages or a session man who plays the melodies of other songwriters who in turn are not afraid of emotional self-expression, indeed they're exhibitionistic (Sx) more or less when pouring their heart into music on stage.

Interestingly, I've never met any ESFP whose emotions are private. I have a recording from when I was a baby and my great aunt talks to me in baby language, well, in the crazy ESFP style. When I visited her in the Spring, after not having seen her for almost decades, recognized the same type of overemotional behavior in her as in the video. And when out in town, she definitely had no shame or inhibition when expressing her emotions and making a scene... like a real drama queen.

However, I'm just now realizing that one of my teachers may be an ESFP as well but not as much of a drama storm, I could feel some emotions of her in her behavior but what is more prominently on the outside is her Enneagram 7! Man! For her sex is a topic that must be brought up in every class and to humor it. She laughs basically at everything and when we have these feminist literatures, she always emphasizes the sex part and how funny it must have been when these women in certain novels etc...
Last year we had feminist cinema and she always brought up _Faster Pussycat Kill Kill Kill!_ as how trashy and funny is when these women with huge tits fight a man. She's got enormous melons btw. Yeah, what I'm afraid of is that ESFPs gonna eat me alive!


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Sylas said:


> It's not emo, that implies some e4 and socionics "victim" type correlations, which don't apply to every Sx/Sp.
> 
> It's definitely processing everything in hyper-emotional manner.* People who think sx=relationships have no clue -- its much greater and more extensive than that for those who have it as first insinct*, like the all-pervasive dominant function in MBTI that you can never "shut off". Since the sx firsts tend to interpret everything in somewhat emotional manner, I've seen them being accused of being too emotional, *too subjective*, *dramatic,* altruistic, permissive, *too provocative, too irrational, too clingy,* and various similar emotional labels.


uhh, I underlie you some good points.
hyper-emotional processing may be of unhealthy sx types from the hearth center (4s, 2s). But it usually is followed by drama, guilt tripping and manipulation.
Other than that, everyone can process anything hyper-emotionally.
-> Generally you can state that: *Sx-doms take things very personally, expecially Sx/Sps as they don't (usually) belong to a group to pass on the issue, to share it and the feelings connected to it with others (to take away from its effect) - however, the responses to the perceived personal calls may vary depending on their Enneagram.* They have their "soap-boxes" just because of that, for not feeling that it is not their responsibility solely to change that other person. Watch Samurai Jack and you'll understand. D

Emos are not Sx-es because they draw attention through *indirect *signaling. They're silent and pretend to blend into the woodworks, concurrently with portraying to be bleeding, depressive, having wrist cuts, etc. = displaying an *image*. That is social communication because it's subtle and doesn't overdominate the group dynamics and conversation turns . And not expressing their need for help verbally to the group is also a way of *self-imitation* e.g.: "Like of course I'm okay, can't you see?" Social subtypes always mean the opposite of what they're saying and don't want to be overbearing, over-imposing to others by being attentive to keeping *boundaries*.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

RainIsMyColour said:


> I don't know if I'd consider myself emo. If at all, then not like the stereotypical one, but more like...uh...a less vocal version. Very internalised. Has to do with my upbringing, actually 'emotions are annoying, meddling things, and childish, get rid of them'. So not much emo-ing for me, more like tightly held control and no emoting until I burst like a volcano. I cried a lot as a child and still do, I just hide it better. Most of the time. THAT's the most emo I ever am.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. And here I was wondering if feeling and coming off as more independent meant being SP over SX. Your SX/SP description fits me pretty well though.


Naah, emos, by definition...(?), (haha "definition,") or at least by social stereotype are annoying because they are able to trigger people's (think of a group, wider circles) conscience and make them feel bad. They appeal to the people in an off-putting way. I think unhealthy So/Sx-es can be like that, of the emotional types. Whereas So blind spots completely shoot off the mark when trying to get their message across to the group.

I had a similar upbringing, made me real anal about emotions and physical needs as well. To do the perfect job and postpone having fun till later, later, indefinitely later. They even made me feel bad for having fun. Videogames! Gasp! Horrible!
Oh, I see you have a w1 there, uh, fuck. Now I'm just back from folk dancing that I use to blow the steam and vent my E1 range. It's not Sp/Sx definitely since I really make a display of myself there. Imagine people dancing peacefully and out of a sudden me hollering guttural cries and stomping the floor like some Mr. Hyde personality part has taken over. And it affects my E7 as well, I fool around as a clown and like to make a stage and attract people's attention but I never do it in a way that caters for what the group's humor or expectations (So blind spot). It's just me and my fancies, idiosyncrasies, like an enfant terrible demanding immediate appeal from the ex-ostracizers.

Sp firsts, on the other hand, according to her description, can come off as disinterested, bored, uncaring, disengaged. I think they are the real wallflowers. They go with the crowd reluctantly but are actually detached from them in the inside and blend in the woodworks that camouflages them with invisibility, so for long periods of time no one notices them. As an Sx/Sp, as @Sylas wrote, I can't shut it off, there's always a moment in the class when I butt in. And believe me, I've been a student for too many years, I was like this, to think back, already in high school (that's when it became prominent, for I switched schools a lot and felt uncomfortable in new environments, somehow for repressing the expression of my emotional needs and fears, I ended up making a clown of myself).


----------



## Nephilibata (Jan 21, 2015)

*Is Sx/Sp the &quot;emo&quot; instinctual variant?*

Hmm...lol I had to mull over what you wrote first. Tbh, I type as SX-dom first right now because I happened to talk to someone here who types the same MBTI and enneagram as me, and we both have mindbogglingly similar ways of viewing life and such, from how we thought about experiences to our ideas and expectations. They type as SX/SP. Otherwise I probably would have stuck with SP-dom first, though both SP and SX feel very balanced (definite SO blindspot LOL, apart from some aux-Fe things SO matters don't register. At all).
I initially thought I was SX-blindspot for sure because most of the descriptions sounded much more dramatic and *ahem* extraverted than I am, since I do feel like I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum, plus I ID as on the asexual spectrum too. It was only after learning a bit more and talking to this person that I realised SX doesn't necessarily refer to sexual stuff at all.
As to considering SP-dom at first...I'll be honest, I went with SP/SX because I was told I give off that vibe online. I just kinda rolled with it because I hate loose ends and wanted a somewhat complete enneagram typing for myself (...still missing the tritypes, dammit). It fits well enough with being security oriented which I associate with risk-averse which I kind of am with most things...except when it comes to relationships, especially when we're close. Then it's like they're the north to my compass, any thoughts and concerns are focused on them, and something extreme has to happen, like some break in trust between us, for me to be able to step out of it and look at it more objectively.
I think what appeals to me about SP-dom is calm, stability and consistency, all things I identify with...at surface level. I'm starting to realise that my 'calm'/'stability' comes from my upbringing and subconscious avoidance of situations that can disturb it (9?), because I know I can get very emotional, very fast and don't like that inner turmoil, especially since much of it are negative emotions. As for consistency...same as above, but I really...am...not. Inconsistency in behaviour is the most obvious with me, it's so incredibly people dependent. I don't mind keeping in the background and letting others lead but will ramp up my energy and involvement if no one's stepping up. I tend to keep quiet unless I'm with people I'm close to - then I sort of just let go and not realise how much I 'flipped', sort of like what you say about your dance class. I'll be the chill, analytical, logical friend around some, a diplomat around others, or the 'extraverted' dramatic, or the soft, quiet and understanding one. It also has to do with mood, I think. To strangers, I most often probably come off as aloof, until I open my mouth that is. To quote my sis, I'm 'a harmless fuzzball'.
Oh, you know those moments that make you cringe when looking back on them? Yeah, that's my whole life. One after the other, sometimes even just hours after it happened. I'll think 'ohmygod wtf were you DOING?' followed by the next thing I won't be aware of is really embarrassing.

Maybe it's a normal thing I just wasn't aware of, but even when I'm quiet, people tend to listen when I do talk. And to my absolute surprise every single time, people always know who I am in a class or something, even though I always perceived myself to be somewhat invisible (I think this has more to do with being ignored for a large chunk of my life, not internal perception). My self perception seems to be hella skewed anyway though, according to my family I have obsessions and an addictive personality which I didn't realise wasn't normal until they pointed it out. It is true that I just completely submerge, surround myself and sort of 'become' whatever or whoever I'm interested in. It really is a bit of matter of being SP-matter oriented between phases of obsession - then I'll drop everything and only concentrate on that, much to my family's annoyance. My new 'obsession' becomes my focus point, screw eating, sleep or anything else. It's a bit like becoming a black hole, and once it's sucked in all there is, it looks for new things, always. I really do hate being bored, I always have to be occupied somehow, though most of the stimulation I look for is mental.

So lol, I don't know :'D if I'm SX first, I seem to have nearly equally high SP.



Neokortex said:


> I had a similar upbringing, made me real anal about emotions and physical needs as well.


Lol yes, this. Still affects me and I kind of hate it.



Neokortex said:


> And it affects my E7 as well, I fool around as a clown and like to make a stage and attract people's attention but I never do it in a way that caters for what the group's humor or expectations (So blind spot). It's just me and my fancies, idiosyncrasies, like an enfant terrible demanding immediate appeal from the ex-ostracizers.


Hm, yes. I like to be 'the clown', except it doesn't always work in social contexts. Funny you mention 'stage' though (despite not being meant literally lol), I discovered a passion for acting/singing on stage, something no one expected of me since I was always the 'quiet, sensitive one'. I love performing and seem to have a knack for it once I manage to cast off my shyness/anxiety issues. The adrenaline rush is amazing and people often come up to me afterward, telling me how emotional it was and how it affected them. At the risk of sounding like a narcissist, it's an amazing feeling lol. To be not just 'admired' but to have had such effects on people, on the 'outside world'. I seem to thrive on people's 'positive' attention, bordering on craving it to an unhealthy extent. I think this is why I have trouble truly being uncaring about other people's opinion of me, constantly being torn between wanting validation and just doing whatever the hell I want and damn the consequences.



Neokortex said:


> Sp firsts, on the other hand, according to her description, can come off as disinterested, bored, uncaring, disengaged. I think they are the real wallflowers. They go with the crowd reluctantly but are actually detached from them in the inside and blend in the woodworks that camouflages them with invisibility, so for long periods of time no one notices them.


I think I feel like this is/was me, especially when I'm not as engaged in 'life'. To do with low self confidence too, I'm sure, and more environmental factors. My 'going with the crowd' isn't necessarily reluctant; I'm genuinely easy-going, fine to just go along with another person's wishes as I tend to place them above my own wants (which I'm not often aware of, tbh). 



Neokortex said:


> As an Sx/Sp, as @Sylas wrote, I can't shut it off, there's always a moment in the class when I butt in. And believe me, I've been a student for too many years, I was like this, to think back, already in high school (that's when it became prominent, for I switched schools a lot and felt uncomfortable in new environments, somehow for repressing the expression of my emotional needs and fears, I ended up making a clown of myself).


Not sure I can ID. I'm socially anxious though, less than I was, but still am. I like controlling when the spotlight is on me, hence love for stage performance.

thanks for all your info, I have to say it's very enlightening


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Neokortex said:


> Interestingly, I've never met any ESFP whose emotions are private. I have a recording from when I was a baby and my great aunt talks to me in baby language, well, in the crazy ESFP style. When I visited her in the Spring, after not having seen her for almost decades, recognized the same type of overemotional behavior in her as in the video. And when out in town, she definitely had no shame or inhibition when expressing her emotions and making a scene... like a real drama queen.
> 
> However, I'm just now realizing that one of my teachers may be an ESFP as well but not as much of a drama storm, I could feel some emotions of her in her behavior but what is more prominently on the outside is her Enneagram 7! Man! For her sex is a topic that must be brought up in every class and to humor it. She laughs basically at everything and when we have these feminist literatures, she always emphasizes the sex part and how funny it must have been when these women in certain novels etc...
> Last year we had feminist cinema and she always brought up _Faster Pussycat Kill Kill Kill!_ as how trashy and funny is when these women with huge tits fight a man. She's got enormous melons btw. Yeah, what I'm afraid of is that ESFPs gonna eat me alive!


We are more complex than we come across, I guess. You're INFP... do you know what Fi is for you? Is it intense? Is it there for everyone to see and for the dramatic effect? Well, we have that as auxiliary. What you see with ESFPs are the passing, real-time emotions, that bubble-up as immediate response to the environment and the here and now. They can look impressive, but are only skin deep. The laughing, upset, anger that you see and that make up for the drama with some, those are the emotions that just come and go. How many ESFPs do you know that will actually share with you, what is troubling them? What keeps them up at night? Their fears, motivations, obsessions. We have many. And people don't know. Because they don't look. And I guess because we are deceiving that way. People expect that what they see with us is what they get. Imagine a deep V-valley river. The emotions you can easily observe in an ESFP are the top layer of the water, that can go at an easy pace, the sun heats it up, it is easily affected by the weather, by the little boats rowing in there, or little animals. However, don't forget, that just a little under the surface, the water gets fast and deep, and if you get caught in that current, you drown, because the undercurrent is damn strong. Well, that's a good parallel to ESFP emotions. What you see is just a scratch of the surface. The rest is kept under the lid and hidden.

PS: I've never seen Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill. Is it good?


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> We are more complex than we come across, I guess. You're INFP... do you know what Fi is for you? Is it intense? Is it there for everyone to see and for the dramatic effect? Well, we have that as auxiliary. What you see with ESFPs are the passing, real-time emotions, that bubble-up as immediate response to the environment and the here and now. They can look impressive, but are only skin deep. The laughing, upset, anger that you see and that make up for the drama with some, those are the emotions that just come and go. How many ESFPs do you know that will actually share with you, what is troubling them? What keeps them up at night? Their fears, motivations, obsessions. We have many. And people don't know. Because they don't look. And I guess because we are deceiving that way. People expect that what they see with us is what they get. Imagine a deep V-valley river. The emotions you can easily observe in an ESFP are the top layer of the water, that can go at an easy pace, the sun heats it up, it is easily affected by the weather, by the little boats rowing in there, or little animals. However, don't forget, that just a little under the surface, the water gets fast and deep, and if you get caught in that current, you drown, because the undercurrent is damn strong. Well, that's a good parallel to ESFP emotions. What you see is just a scratch of the surface. The rest is kept under the lid and hidden.
> 
> PS: I've never seen Faster Pussycat, Kill Kill. Is it good?


Yeah, probably I'm instinctively feeling that current, vortex there. That there's something really really messy and chaotic underneath. 
The raw energies of life perhaps. But for sure the skinny deep shallowness is the thing that suggests the strongest the presence of its opposite: something dark and staggeringly serious. By dark and raw I mean that I also associate Se to it... hence I'm afraid of that mental depth, the lack of the Te (-logical) organizedness ( = chaos) I feel to be lurking inside may take control of the body. Think of Harley Quinn from Batman, if you wish.

Fi for us? It's a long winding echo... but on the upside, a lot of emotional details register allowing us to differentiate between details of subtle ethical factors. You see I'm theorizing again, I repressed my ability to openly show emotions due to parental restrictions (STs). This lead to developing E6 which makes me feel anxiety/coldness most of the time instead of warm emotions. But I have it, don't worry, as the other week I was reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, sentimental novel, a huge surge of repressed emotions bursted out, making me crying. Instead of explicit drama, which the so/sp 4 is unable to feed energy into, I am more strongly critical, that is rage, bottled up anger fueled by sx/sp 1.

P.s. Faster Pussycat is a sexploitation trash movie from the '60s, apart from having been an '80s rock band as well.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

RainIsMyColour said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, at us now there is 00:32. I'm going to analyze this in parts and going to postpone it now. But I already have a verdict: the strongest trait I see in you based on this big chunk of text is SO/SX, of Enneagram 9. That doesn't rule out for your other Enneagrams or strategies to complement you with Sp, although it's not as much of a character trait, but rather action-based, that is: your gut type Enneagram has it (I'm just speculating).


----------



## Nephilibata (Jan 21, 2015)

*Is Sx/Sp the &quot;emo&quot; instinctual variant?*



Neokortex said:


> Okay, at us now there is 00:32. I'm going to analyze this in parts and going to postpone it now. But I already have a verdict: the strongest trait I see in you based on this big chunk of text is SO/SX, of Enneagram 9. That doesn't rule out for your other Enneagrams or strategies to complement you with Sp, although it's not as much of a character trait, but rather action-based, that is: your gut type Enneagram has it (I'm just speculating).


sorry for writing so much! It got a bit out of hand ^^'

I'm surprised to see you suggest So-dom though, if anything I thought it was last for me o.0 I'm not really much of a group person or team player, I generally prefer doing things by myself...I'm also not really all that good at approaching people/starting and keeping convos going. But maybe that's because I'm extremely introverted. I suspect I have at least one more withdrawn type in my tritype. I dunno, I guess SO-matters are just the least I identified with based on descriptions.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

@Dora - this is Fi for me: I'm ironing my soul out with timecop1983 while being up after midnight and writing some poetry about how I killed my inner child and all the bright happiness is gone and I miss it so much, etc........ just now I exploded into deep sobs over this song:


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

RainIsMyColour said:


> sorry for writing so much! It got a bit out of hand ^^'
> 
> I'm surprised to see you suggest So-dom though, if anything I thought it was last for me o.0 I'm not really much of a group person or team player, I generally prefer doing things by myself...I'm also not really all that good at approaching people/starting and keeping convos going. But maybe that's because I'm extremely introverted. I suspect I have at least one more withdrawn type in my tritype. I dunno, I guess SO-matters are just the least I identified with based on descriptions.


Hey, no problem if you write a lot, that's kinda also telling. Well, I had a 6 hours sleep (I should have had more, though  ) and am still thinking about how to approach you and what you wrote the right way. Because it's your Fe and your E9 is standing in the way of crystal clear insights (or seeing into you)..., I think. So I need you to write even more, if you'd like a more accurate feedback (as long as any kind of feedback via internet forums is helpful at all, --- I sense a complexity there that perhaps 1on1 and longer talks may be more succesful to more accurate discernment --- two caveats, tho: I'm a sucker for INFJ 9s (as being a strong 6) and I'm no professional, haha ).

Okay, so I suspend my "verdict" DD and how about you write me some more about all your instincts, give me 2 specific, concrete examples for each instinct and each example should shed light on an aspect of that instinct. Don't use any help. Additionally, I've thought about demonstrating your Sx, or you trying to describe what Sx means to you at all, perhaps in creative ways.

Or whatever... I may be seeing into you more than there it is. I guess 9s as Sx/Sps don't exist at all. I have an INTP 9 friend, who's rather Sp/Sx-ish but way better in the social realm than I am, he's rather wavering between Sp/Sx and Sp/So.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Neokortex said:


> Yeah, probably I'm instinctively feeling that current, vortex there. That there's something really really messy and chaotic underneath.
> The raw energies of life perhaps. But for sure the skinny deep shallowness is the thing that suggests the strongest the presence of its opposite: something dark and staggeringly serious. By dark and raw I mean that I also associate Se to it... hence I'm afraid of that mental depth, the lack of the Te (-logical) organizedness ( = chaos) I feel to be lurking inside may take control of the body. Think of Harley Quinn from Batman, if you wish.
> 
> Fi for us? It's a long winding echo... but on the upside, a lot of emotional details register allowing us to differentiate between details of subtle ethical factors. You see I'm theorizing again, I repressed my ability to openly show emotions due to parental restrictions (STs). This lead to developing E6 which makes me feel anxiety/coldness most of the time instead of warm emotions. But I have it, don't worry, as the other week I was reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, sentimental novel, a huge surge of repressed emotions bursted out, making me crying. Instead of explicit drama, which the so/sp 4 is unable to feed energy into, I am more strongly critical, that is rage, bottled up anger fueled by sx/sp 1.
> ...


Those 'emotions' that you see in an ESFP are Se related. However, our real and deep ones are introverted. Those are those we don't readily expose. People wouldn't call me stoic, I react to things, I can get really enthusiastic and excited, I laugh easily, I get angry easily too, though not in the venting way, but my face is legible. However, the current underneath can be of a completely different character. I am able to laugh a lot when inside I am heartbroken. I can look calm when inside I am torn with a major conflict and riddled with insecurities and stress. I can spend a lot of energy being there for someone else and asking about how they are and giving them advice, when I myself am at my lowest and desperately need someone to care about me. Why I will do it for others, is because I put myself in their place, and think that if I were them, I would want what I offer.


----------



## Nephilibata (Jan 21, 2015)

*Is Sx/Sp the &quot;emo&quot; instinctual variant?*



Neokortex said:


> Hey, no problem if you write a lot, that's kinda also telling. Well, I had a 6 hours sleep (I should have had more, though  ) and am still thinking about how to approach you and what you wrote the right way. Because it's your Fe and your E9 is standing in the way of crystal clear insights (or seeing into you)..., I think. So I need you to write even more, if you'd like a more accurate feedback (as long as any kind of feedback via internet forums is helpful at all, --- I sense a complexity there that perhaps 1on1 and longer talks may be more succesful to more accurate discernment --- two caveats, tho: I'm a sucker for INFJ 9s (as being a strong 6) and I'm no professional, haha ).
> 
> Okay, so I suspend my "verdict" DD and how about you write me some more about all your instincts, give me 2 specific, concrete examples for each instinct and each example should shed light on an aspect of that instinct. Don't use any help. Additionally, I've thought about demonstrating your Sx, or you trying to describe what Sx means to you at all, perhaps in creative ways.
> 
> Or whatever... I may be seeing into you more than there it is. I guess 9s as Sx/Sps don't exist at all. I have an INTP 9 friend, who's rather Sp/Sx-ish but way better in the social realm than I am, he's rather wavering between Sp/Sx and Sp/So.


Haha, yeah, I think I would've tried to be more specific etc. if I had known you'd wanna try analysing :'D I didn't expect it though it's always kind of cool to see what other people's impression is. You're probably right about 1on1 being better, but I suppose that's usually the case ^^'

I'll put it in a spoiler, I wrote a lot once again...apparently I just can't stop writing or keep things short. Sorry :'D


* *




Hmm...let's see. Well, as mentioned, I went with SP/SX first because I was told I gave off that vibe over online messaging. Didn't really look much into it afterward, though I did do a couple of tests after being told this and ended up with a way higher SX score than SP, followed by even lower SO. I know, a bit of a dumb reason to start questioning ^^'

I'm still trying to wrap my head around Fe and So differences, so I suppose I'll start with that. I do care a lot about other people's opinion of me, want to be liked etc. but actually during a conversation I had with my sister earlier today (ESFP, most likely E3 and/or SO-dom or aux) found one what I believe is a fundamental difference. She cares about her reputation to an incredible amount, catering to people's expectations of her to a certain extent despite being undeniably Fi. She's been like that already since childhood and would tell family how worried she was while I could only keep seeing 'no one cares'; I only learned a few years ago that that hurt her to hear because SHE cares, so I try to remember that and either say nothing or soften my words. Today something similar occurred, her voicing her worry after telling me about *ahem* sexual escapades she's had from a party last night. She concluded her retelling with 'I hope no one thinks I'm a sexual deviant' and my initial reaction and verbal response was 'well, why would you care about what anyone thinks as long as the guy you had sex with/like knows the truth? Aren't you two all that matter?'
This is such a regular occurrence, her partying and not really caring at all during, but then becoming worried and very anxious about her reputation after, how her friends perceive her, if that group of friends she's in will expect her to get together with this guy despite her not wanting to date etc. Me, on the other hand, care too, but more as an afterthought. It never gives me anxiety to think about what they think or how they perceive me; I waver between that mindset and genuinely not caring about it at all. I'd trust that my actions wouldn't reflect on what they know about ME as a person. Reputation is something very far from my mind, not something I spend much time thinking about and, as such, not having a particularly good grasp on how I actually am perceived unless I receive constant feedback. Curiously, my sister also told me about how she perceived group dynamics and cared about them a few weeks ago (not E-gram related as she doesn't really know or care much about it), and I think that cemented for me that I really am SO-last. I'm somewhat aware of groups and think it's nice to belong, but I don't need groups to survive like she does; I'm perfectly fine existing on its fringes with my own, closer circle of friends. She's fully aware of who is who, who is dating who and genuinely interested in those things while much of that stuff goes over my head. To be fair, I'm a typical 'head-in-the-clouds-person' though.

I'm somewhat socially awkward. It never really feels like smooth sailing, very stop and go. I'm more socially aware than my mother (more below), but I think that's due to Fe. 

As for SP...I assumed I was SP for reasons outlined in my above post, I think, but I also believe much of it is more learned behaviour than innate (but I'm also unclear on how far instinctual variants are innate vs learned). I highly suspect my mother to be SP-dom, either SP/SX or SP/SO. She's instilled the importance of financial independence on us, in addition to what you(?) already read too, teaching us to be independent of interpersonal contact too, so both my sister and I have fairly independent mindsets, me possibly more than her, even. I've been told I come off as very independent in person. What I identify with from SP-dom 9's descriptions is comfort, I think. I like to be physically and mentally comfortable, I like to feel stable and secure - due to, I think, it being very easy for me to lose mental footing. Like my mother and sister, I'm health-conscious to a degree (another upbringing thing tbh, we've been drilled since young that a healthy diet, weight and exercise is very important). I definitely think this is more prominent in the two of them than in me. It became bad enough for my sister to develop an eating disorder a few years ago, and even now, she still has an extreme view of exercise, diet and food. I'm more relaxed but notice I'm prone to developing a similar mindset, but I remember not always having been that way. When I was younger, my mother hired a personal trainer for me to lose weight because despite hating the way I looked, I never did anything to get started. I absolutely resented it, only feeling the 'suffering' in the now and being relieved as fuck when it was over. I didn't have the proper mindset to keep going and maintain it myself, only developing an interest in it a couple of years later. I did a ton of research, and it's now one of the few points I can connect to my mother to. I'm still not as strict about it as her or my sister though, and wish I was. I don't feel as self disciplined as either of them.

My mother is a chronic hoarder of everything. And I mean everything. I don't really mind or notice, just kind of going along with it, but that's something I only partially identify with. When I hoard, it's usually something I take in excitement and then forget I have it; hence a slowly growing collection of stuff I keep not out of need or thinking I'll need it or attachment but just because I'm too lazy to bother going through it all and throwing it out. I have a few things I keep for sentimental value and some presents I got ages ago and do nothing with, but am afraid to throw away because, weirdly, it represents the person who gave it to me and would feel like I'm throwing them away. That is the major reason why I would have difficulty getting rid of the crap I keep, and even leaves a bruise-like ache when I do part with it.

I tend to be frugal. I hate to say it, but I'm massively stingy about money, like my father. I think that was one of the things I connected with over SP-dom. But apart from these points, all of the mentioned things seem very...well, boring to me. Not really worth much thought; that could also be because I just having nothing to worry about security-wise at this point. Oh, to bring financial security into it, that's a big one, and as such I do want to have a job that secures stable income. BUT, and this has always been how I think, and a very difficult thing to come to terms with now, I find it impossible to imagine working any job I don't have at the very least an interest in. Passion or intense interest in anything is what drives me to do things in life, and this is something I wish I could turn on and off because it feels unreliable. I have to come to terms with putting interest over security, something that's difficult to reconcile with the constantly being told to be financially independent. This even interferes with getting a side job as uni student tbh, and it sucks. Being extremely introverted with all jobs being either in retail or hospitality is an absolute nightmare, but on the other hand, I love books and would be yelling off the rooftops in excitement if I got a job at a bookstore, even though it's still technically retail.

Now, SX. Also still trying to really understand it, as at first I completely struck it off as possibility due to clashing of the name and me identifying as ace. As also mentioned, I have an obsessive/addictive personality (gosh darnit, that felt like the opening line of an AA meeting. 'Hi, I'm Rain, and I'm obsessive'). Because I can be so stupidly unaware of myself, I didn't acknowledge or realise that until it was pointed out to me as flaw by my mother (my sister confirmed it though only when I was saying the other day I don't have an addictive personality and she looked at me like I was the camera in the office). I'm still trying to understand exactly what merging is; I can't think about it in terms of romantic relationships because I've never had any, but if it's comparable to over-identifying with...well, anything, that's me to a T. I think this is the reason I like anything to do with personality type, including something as trivial as a random fb quiz. I've always liked to identify with fictional characters, trying to 'become' them, in a sense. I can tell it's unhealthy but it feels like a coping mechanism, a tool to 'fill' the 'void' within me or uncovering who I really am. I don't know if this sounds extreme, but it really is a prevailing theme in my life. As silly as this may sound, I remember standing in the kitchen of our house when I was around 16 or so, and having a what to me was a bone-crushing realisation, that I'd never have a life and exciting or adventurous, full of magic, like the books I love to read.

I have obsessive phases where whatever it is I'm into takes over every waking thought unless I force myself to think of other things, and even then, that doesn't last long. I'll connect everything back to it. I have difficulty sleeping because of it, case in point, when I got into MBTI and kept going back and forth between INFP and INFJ, I stayed up too long, barely slept despite being exhausted and generally feeling too keyed up, like loosely spinning wheels. My brain, already overactive as it is, would not shut off, endlessly whirring and buzzing in a frenzy, unable to calm or rest until I had a bulletproof answer, or at least one solid enough to vaguely pin a single option and stick to it. This does have a good side to it too, though, I'm able to just lock on to a goal ignore absolutely everything, block out every single distraction, until I get where I want to be.

This may be a 9 thing or maybe my upbringing again, but I've seen many SX-doms here emphasise over and over that they move toward an ever-growing intensity in any relationship. Due to how I grew up, I learned to keep people's at an arm's length, not because I want to or need that space, but because of protection I was told I need. I'm only slowly beginning to learn these things about me and actively working on breaking them down because I don't want to be this way. I want to be close without barriers and I want to trust (not an instinct thing though, just me and my problems lol). I generally feel like I'm an open book, no questions are really off-limits to me until I get asked and feel uncomfortable all of the sudden. I've been told I'm very secretive though, or at least that I give off that vibe. I think the way I view relationships is mostly based on trust and understanding; with my closest friends, I feel comfortable enough not to be judged. Until it gets to that stage though, I feel like I constantly have my feelers out, am observant of every single thing that could be a hint as to who they are. I have to say here, I don't identify with asking intrusive questions which may have to do with my Fe. That is to say, I'm not exactly aware of 'socially' unacceptable questions except on broad topics, but it's rather my sensing of what may be off-limits to them personally. I'd rather be carefully feeling out what I can ask and so accumulating more info to grow closer, and only becoming more 'daring' once I feel like I've crossed some kind of threshold, because I don't want to risk scaring off someone interesting or potential friend etc. The process of 'learning' never really stops though. At the risk of this sounding conceited, it's when people tell me what I know their deepest secrets and fears that I feel the most honoured and 'special'. Maybe that's normal. I don't know, is that what is meant by constantly moving toward intense relationships?

To touch on what I talked to the other INFJ 9w1 SX/SP, we both have identical views on things such as love and crushes, but also just life. As mentioned, it was absolutely mind-boggling to read their experiences and feel like I was reading another version of mine.
Crushes aren't like slowly falling, it's like lightning striking without warning. And once I'm aware there's a potential crushing situation for me, all it takes to develop fully is thinking about them, not even being with them, but just daydreaming which can happen all too easily. So far, the biggest crushes I've had, have not left me, despite years having past and there not really being any hope of reciprocation at all. It's quite annoying. And to mention 'merging' again, it's with them that I really do move toward that 'becoming' them, that I feel at my best and most at ease when it feels like there are no barriers - while simultaneously becoming a bit scared.
There's this thing about SX 9's being somewhat 4-like, and that's something I can identify with (but then again, 9s ID with everything...).
The INFJ told me they used to find it impossible to imagine dating anyone they didn't have a connection/chemistry/attraction toward, and it's the exact same for me. Casual dating does not compute as a functional idea. In this sense, it's really 'all or nothing'. I also remember telling my family once 'I don't care if I get hurt dating, I just want to experience SOMETHING. I want the infatuation and love, I want the heartbreak, and I want to love again' (holy hell, so dramatic...). As for being dramatic, well. I did say that I have a love for stage performing, as out of character for me as it is. I don't THINK I'm that dramatic irl but I'm told I can be.

Oh, lmao, I just got reminded. Had a talk about this with my sister once, about love. I've always dreamed of 'true love' and finding 'the one' then spending the rest of my life with them, while she can't imagine anything more nightmare-ish. I think it's the Se-dom in her, as she said she'd get bored, and she does get bored pretty quick. Go figure.

I think that's also with my trying to break free of 'learned independence' comes from. My mother always told us 'you can't trust or rely on anyone but yourself'. As child I took it as gospel, but now that thought gives me nightmares. It's the most terrifying thought for me and a constant fear underlaying my life that I'll be alone forever.




Hm. I'm not sure if I wrote the right things or if there's anything I forgot to add. Let me know ^^'

edit: I'd tell you to get some more sleep, but if you're anything like me, you probably won't be able to until you've cracked this ;P do take care yourself!


----------



## Ronney (Jul 17, 2016)

I was probably a bit on the emotional side as a teenager. But not later


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

I always thought that would be the Sx/So folks, not the Sx/Sp. Did I post this already?


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I always thought that would be the Sx/So folks, not the Sx/Sp. Did I post this already?


Hey!

-_-

Do you mean emo in the fashion victim sense with the awful hair and clothes, or emo in the mood/emotional sense?


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> Hey!
> 
> -_-
> 
> Do you mean emo in the fashion victim sense with the awful hair and clothes, or emo in the mood/emotional sense?


There's a difference?


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> There's a difference?


Good point.

I never went through an emo phase. I did wear embarrassingly large pants though.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> Good point.
> 
> I never went through an emo phase. I did wear embarrassingly large pants though.


There was no "emo" when I was a kid. The closest were the goth/punk/new wavers.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> There was no "emo" when I was a kid. The closest were the goth/punk/new wavers.


I didn't have the guts to join the goths.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> I didn't have the guts to join the goths.


I didn't see the point: "Let's all be non-conformists together."


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> I didn't see the point: "Let's all be non-conformists together."


I was more conformist as a kid.


----------



## tanstaafl28 (Sep 10, 2012)

Doll said:


> I was more conformist as a kid.


As was I. Jeans, tee-shirts, and sneakers.


----------



## Doll (Sep 6, 2012)

tanstaafl28 said:


> As was I. Jeans, tee-shirts, and sneakers.


Dress, ribbons, french braids. Sorority. 

Makes me look back all


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> I wouldn't be attracted to myself in a male body, because I am looking for someone, who is complementary to me. Who has what I don't, and who will appreciate me for the things I can have for the both of us. And yes, I do provide value. Though I don't have this trait towards people outside of my inner circle, I am nurturing and supportive, passionate and compassionate, I am understanding, and know how to really appreciate and validate whoever is with me. I don't shy away from pain, struggles, or tough times and am loyal to a fault. I've been there for my exes through thick and thin. I'm also determined to communicate and work through good and bad, and have done in the past. And apart from things that are seen in the relationship, I have have stuff that I do for me that plenty people admire. I play American football, and am a starter, currently. I have some artistic talent, and can sing. I am efficient at work. I know how to enjoy my time on my own and have sufficient projects and goings on that I don't need the guy to be there for me 24/7. I have endless amount of trivia to share. I speak multiple languages... Of course, I have plenty issues too, who doesn't, but I'm not going to advertise them, am I?:wink:


Yea, that's why I asked. You enlisted things that you often read and hear from women... men to have their shit together, know themselves, what they want, where they stand in the world, etc. they need a grown up adult. On one hand it sounds like they need an adult as much as adults themselves are, an equal, on the other hand, though... if it's meant to give something they don't have, if they, the women don't have all these "basics," then it sounds like clinging to someone who redeems their growing up.

American football, ey? I remember once catching sight of this manly arm in my usual diner. Biceps, triceps, everything was in its place only to startle me when I realized it belonged to a woman. I started questioning, whether it's just my projection that these women have it harder in finding a man... for me they're off with the gender stereotypes, me in as a conservative, I can't talk in general for it always turns out I'm completely off with the trends, a couple of decades at least D. But I think the "hourglass" is always in, meaning boobs and symmetric soft(?) face. Do you think that the impression your face gives is rather this G.I.Jane military toughness? Thought about hitting up on the bodybuilder guys?

Some stuff you write, though, sounds like So being the second in the stack. You don't care about it because it's taken care of. You don't lack in that. You have your circle of friends. Sure you could use some more networking, more money but now, from the sounds of it, it's just high time to have pairing a #1 priority before you get older and withered. How would you then explain being extroverted in MBTi and So blind spot in Enneagram?


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Neokortex said:


> Yea, that's why I asked. You enlisted things that you often read and hear from women... men to have their shit together, know themselves, what they want, where they stand in the world, etc. they need a grown up adult. On one hand it sounds like they need an adult as much as adults themselves are, an equal, on the other hand, though... if it's meant to give something they don't have, if they, the women don't have all these "basics," then it sounds like clinging to someone who redeems their growing up.
> 
> American football, ey? I remember once catching sight of this manly arm in my usual diner. Biceps, triceps, everything was in its place only to startle me when I realized it belonged to a woman. I started questioning, whether it's just my projection that these women have it harder in finding a man... for me they're off with the gender stereotypes, me in as a conservative, I can't talk in general for it always turns out I'm completely off with the trends, a couple of decades at least D. But I think the "hourglass" is always in, meaning boobs and symmetric soft(?) face. Do you think that the impression your face gives is rather this G.I.Jane military toughness? Thought about hitting up on the bodybuilder guys?
> 
> Some stuff you write, though, sounds like So being the second in the stack. You don't care about it because it's taken care of. You don't lack in that. You have your circle of friends. Sure you could use some more networking, more money but now, from the sounds of it, it's just high time to have pairing a #1 priority before you get older and withered. How would you then explain being extroverted in MBTi and So blind spot in Enneagram?


I don't think American football impairs me from finding a guy. From our football team, almost all the coaches are dating one of the players. It's just natural when you spend so much time with the same group of people and you are of the opposite sex that you eventually find someone who is a good match. My last boyfriend first met me when I was training. He wasn't _my _coach, but he was _a _coach. Also, there is a great variety of what the female players look like. Some are killer on the field, but they look like a Barbie when they get out of the shower.

To give you more objective source of evaluation:

This is me two years ago - 








One year ago - 








Now - 








All three are years I have been playing football in. Up to you to have an opinion on whether that makes me butch or feminine.

I don't like the bodybuilder figure at all. If it makes guys happy and gives them a positive self-image, sure, go ahead and bulk up, but I find it unattractive. I like athletic-looking guys, that don't go over the top.

Actually, I don't have a circle of friends. I have the odd individual friend, that I talk to occasionally, and I can be friendly, but I belong to no niche at all. And I don't really care. Only individuals really matter to me. I find it hard to interact in groups, and more and more I realize that I don't really miss it. It's not a desire. In parties, unless someone is talking directly at me, I will generally watch the videos on screens that are often in bars, or I will dance to myself, or stare off into space. I suck at networking.

I am introverted in MBTI. I thought I wasn't, because sometimes I talk too much, and I am friendly, but more so when I see one stranded person. I tend to yap on a one-on-one basis.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> I don't think American football impairs me from finding a guy. From our football team, almost all the coaches are dating one of the players. *It's just natural when you spend so much time with the same group of people and you are of the opposite sex that you eventually find someone who is a good match. My last boyfriend first met me when I was training.* He wasn't _my _coach, but he was _a _coach. Also, there is a great variety of what the female players look like. Some are killer on the field, but they look like a Barbie when they get out of the shower.


Now, I don't wanna be picky, but I have to admit my parents are engineers. So that makes me meticulous. The bolded parts somehow seems off with something you wrote earlier:


> Nope. I'm single. And have been for a long long long time. (...) I force myself into social events, so that there is a chance I meet someone I am intrigued by, but in a very long time, I haven't met anyone who would interest me in the slightest. (...) And there just aren't that many people who are interesting.





> To give you more objective source of evaluation:
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


Okay. You do look like a strong woman but I guess you girls know better when it comes to dressing and highlighting female qualities. 2nd picture is more to my taste, the last one appears to be to attract guys from the bar D.


> I don't like the bodybuilder figure at all. If it makes guys happy and gives them a positive self-image, sure, go ahead and bulk up, but I find it unattractive. I like athletic-looking guys, that don't go over the top.


I'm ectomorph, have to disappoint you... but with the mindset of not advertising one's flaws, I picked the ones when I still had more hair and am doing some action (way to go, Se!  ;D).


















> Actually, I don't have a circle of friends. I have the odd individual friend, that I talk to occasionally, and I can be friendly, but I belong to no niche at all. And I don't really care. Only individuals really matter to me. I find it hard to interact in groups, and more and more I realize that I don't really miss it. It's not a desire. In parties, unless someone is talking directly at me, I will generally watch the videos on screens that are often in bars, or I will dance to myself, or stare off into space. I suck at networking.


You sound like you're some ET stranded on Earth or something. D But now for real, what's the ratio of you doing that versus engaging with people? We can also approach the introversion thing from the football's perspective. How does your So blind spot manifest regarding team play?


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

@Neokortex His the below inconsistent?


> It's just natural when you spend so much time with the same group of people and you are of the opposite sex that you eventually find someone who is a good match. My last boyfriend first met me when I was training.


And


> Nope. I'm single. And have been for a long long long time. (...) I force myself into social events, so that there is a chance I meet someone I am intrigued by, but in a very long time, I haven't met anyone who would interest me in the slightest. (...) And there just aren't that many people who are interesting.


I did have a serious boyfriend that I met on the field and all sweaty. We were together two years. I just haven't been dating since. Not that I didn't get offers from other guys who play and watch me play. Plenty. But two things - I'm easily hurt if I invest, therefore I'm picky, and I don't want to get a reputation going around.

The photos are a three year progression. The last one isn't for club picking up, that's what I wear pretty much every day, with a variation of colors of T-shirt.

What's my ratio of doing what? I watch TV when I get bored. But I talk to people also, if there's any topic I am interested in. I don't generally drive the direction of conversation, so I join if I have something to say. It comes to around 50/50. And yes, I am ET.
How is introversion relevant in football? I know how to shout directions at my team the way I should, and I am not shy, especially if I have adrenaline in my veins. I don't think it's relevant there.

That's not bad at all:wink: Especially when you can jump that high! That's impressive.


----------



## Riven (Jan 17, 2015)

Si tertiary, can be emo af at times.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> @Neokortex His the below inconsistent?
> 
> 
> And
> ...


Well, the main inconsistency I find... is rather this exaggeration when you talk about your "not being social" or introverted. I think the qualities you mention put you more into a healthy ambivert category instead of somebody being alien on Earth, like I am with my social blind spot... although in some respects, I'm more grounded than some social people. I'm alien to a lot of groups, except for groups with Ennneagram 7 dominating or 9. From what you write, you seem to blend in just fine, even if passive for not wanting to risk hurting emotions. That's also something I have, as a social 4. I opt for the "so/sp" -version from the types of 4s described, meaning that, I'm not as much assertive emotionally, rather self-sacrificing when it comes to my emotions. But altogether, I sacrifice them for my own benefit (getting ahead in society with a pokerface), instead of being altruistic for a greater social cause or groups (temporarily I let their emotions dominate but I don't submit myself, don't conform, don't stick around). Yea, sports for instance. Until mid Fall I haphazardly joined an Ultimate Frisbee group in their training and I had a good time, especially the last time but I knew if I wanted to stick around I had to pay for becoming a member and I'd be expected to take it more seriously. Now the acting improv. group has started up again, which I was serious about last semester but during the summer I got to know the "coach" better, got disillusioned and don't feel like joining again. Usually I stick around only until I figure out who the members are individually underneath the sugary surface of team spirit.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Neokortex said:


> Well, the main inconsistency I find... is rather this exaggeration when you talk about your "not being social" or introverted. I think the qualities you mention put you more into a healthy ambivert category instead of somebody being alien on Earth, like I am with my social blind spot... although in some respects, I'm more grounded than some social people. I'm alien to a lot of groups, except for groups with Ennneagram 7 dominating or 9. From what you write, you seem to blend in just fine, even if passive for not wanting to risk hurting emotions. That's also something I have, as a social 4. I opt for the "so/sp" -version from the types of 4s described, meaning that, I'm not as much assertive emotionally, rather self-sacrificing when it comes to my emotions. But altogether, I sacrifice them for my own benefit (getting ahead in society with a pokerface), instead of being altruistic for a greater social cause or groups (temporarily I let their emotions dominate but I don't submit myself, don't conform, don't stick around). Yea, sports for instance. Until mid Fall I haphazardly joined an Ultimate Frisbee group in their training and I had a good time, especially the last time but I knew if I wanted to stick around I had to pay for becoming a member and I'd be expected to take it more seriously. Now the acting improv. group has started up again, which I was serious about last semester but during the summer I got to know the "coach" better, got disillusioned and don't feel like joining again. Usually I stick around only until I figure out who the members are individually underneath the sugary surface of team spirit.


Well, I probably am close to ambiverted, I guess. Except... damn, I don't know how to describe it. You would have to see me in group interactions to really see what I mean. I'm more of a closet attention whore than actually social. And the only way to get attention is to interact. However, I generally don't get it, so I quit bothering and am just more exhausted for it. There are a few groups where I do well, generally, those where I am the only woman. That's possibly because as a woman I stick out anyway, so they notice less that I am actually a bit weird. And they still do notice, and call me out on it. Those people that I actually like do it in an endearing way, not in a mean one, so for example, my friend says about me that I have a party in my head and no one is invited. I do not blend. Not even if I try. _Especially _if I try. I get in trouble and in awkward situations for being noticed. And got bullied all through childhood and adolescence for being 'different'. Nobody told me _how _I was different, so I don't know, but apparently I was. They just kept telling me I am weird. They only stopped once I got fed up, shaved half my head, got tattoos and piercings. I supposed that at that point, they figured out that I probably know that by now.
Recently, however, I had to admit though, that my self-preservation instinct is stronger than I gave it credit for. When I take good care of myself physically, and I make myself go running, or sweat through hardcore workout, I feel powerful, and good about myself. Lately, self-care, and making sure I learn how to cook healthy and well has become more of a _thing _for me.
I have the advantage on the disillusionment front - I don't tend to have illusions, and accept that everything is imperfect, so I'm hard to disappoint. Shame that it upsets you enough to make you not stick around.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

Dora said:


> Well, I probably am close to ambiverted, I guess. Except... damn, I don't know how to describe it. You would have to see me in group interactions to really see what I mean. I'm more of a closet attention whore than actually social. And the only way to get attention is to interact. However, I generally don't get it, so I quit bothering and am just more exhausted for it. There are a few groups where I do well, generally, those where I am the only woman. That's possibly because as a woman I stick out anyway, so they notice less that I am actually a bit weird. And they still do notice, and call me out on it. Those people that I actually like do it in an endearing way, not in a mean one, so for example, my friend says about me that I have a party in my head and no one is invited. I do not blend. Not even if I try. _Especially _if I try. I get in trouble and in awkward situations for being noticed. And got bullied all through childhood and adolescence for being 'different'. Nobody told me _how _I was different, so I don't know, but apparently I was. They just kept telling me I am weird. They only stopped once I got fed up, shaved half my head, got tattoos and piercings. I supposed that at that point, they figured out that I probably know that by now.
> Recently, however, I had to admit though, that my self-preservation instinct is stronger than I gave it credit for. When I take good care of myself physically, and I make myself go running, or sweat through hardcore workout, I feel powerful, and good about myself. Lately, self-care, and making sure I learn how to cook healthy and well has become more of a _thing _for me.
> I have the advantage on the disillusionment front - I don't tend to have illusions, and accept that everything is imperfect, so I'm hard to disappoint. Shame that it upsets you enough to make you not stick around.


Huh. So you turned yourself into a punk because of peer pressure? Urgh, that's nasty. I usually steer away from those kind of people. And now as you mention self-pres. It sounds like you're from some working class background? That's why I pointed out the 3rd picture and the bar thing... it seems rather... trashy, white trashy. Who am I to judge, though, it's just my stereotypes or whatever. Once, while in the States, a couple of girls invited me to a party and there was this crazy ESFP girl, already tipsy on the job on Friday night. Man, was I naive! Little young lust, robust in features as you appear. She did some... weird advances one me.., half indirect, half serious.. but I was like, yuck! She had this crazy monkey behavior, acting though and macho. She danced with me but got so erratic, wild and She Hulk about it, I just had to call it quits. She slapped my arse once, though, during the middle and I returned it harder and then I heard the quiver in her voice. She obviously had a hard time with emotions, can't blame her for it, but aggression's definitely not my forte.  Oh yeah, and that's when I learned "white trash." That party had that as a theme but couldn't decide if it wasn't merely just that, beyond pretense.


----------



## Dora (Apr 25, 2016)

Neokortex said:


> Huh. So you turned yourself into a punk because of peer pressure? Urgh, that's nasty. I usually steer away from those kind of people. And now as you mention self-pres. It sounds like you're from some working class background? That's why I pointed out the 3rd picture and the bar thing... it seems rather... trashy, white trashy. Who am I to judge, though, it's just my stereotypes or whatever. Once, while in the States, a couple of girls invited me to a party and there was this crazy ESFP girl, already tipsy on the job on Friday night. Man, was I naive! Little young lust, robust in features as you appear. She did some... weird advances one me.., half indirect, half serious.. but I was like, yuck! She had this crazy monkey behavior, acting though and macho. She danced with me but got so erratic, wild and She Hulk about it, I just had to call it quits. She slapped my arse once, though, during the middle and I returned it harder and then I heard the quiver in her voice. She obviously had a hard time with emotions, can't blame her for it, but aggression's definitely not my forte.  Oh yeah, and that's when I learned "white trash." That party had that as a theme but couldn't decide if it wasn't merely just that, beyond pretense.


Nope, I did not turn myself into a punk, nor was it because of peer pressure. I did it for myself, because it was stuff I felt like. I always wanted tattoos. That was just the moment that I could afford them, and found a tattoo studio that I like. The piercings I won't explain, but none of mine except for classic earrings are in visible places, so peer pressure wouldn't be relevant. It's rather that, after I have done that, they seemed to shut up. I've always liked asymmetrical haircuts and it wasn't my first, just most asymmetrical. What is _'those kinds of people'_ for you?
How does it sound like I am from some working class background? And what would be bad about if I would be? I from a family of intellectuals and dissidents, my mum has a degree in architecture, while my dad had a degree in law. He hasn't been a lawyer, but has worked for years for Radio Free Europe, which I hopefully don't need to explain what that is. I also speak three languages completely fluent, another at an advanced level (once), and the basics of couple others. My sister creates humanitarian projects that she got to present in the United Nations in NY, and impressed enough to get some grants for further projects just based on her presentation.

I'm sorry, what is trashy about jeans, not ripped, and a t-shirt, also not ripped? I'm glad you walk around in a three piece suit even at home and to take a mirror selfie, but that does not entitle you to judge.

Just the fact that some chick was drunk and making moves on you does not make her an ESFP. That is possibly the most shallow thing I have ever heard.


----------



## Neokortex (May 22, 2015)

> How does it sound like I am from some working class background? And what would be bad about if I would be?


It makes me feel wanting to run away, to be honest. And I think that's what I'll do after this post, which I plan to be my last in this thread or concerning penetrating you. There is an intrinsic reason for social class differences, I believe, and a reason for why I tend to be allowing with lower class people, letting them approach me, and also a reason why I, as if blinded, unknowingly approach them. I know from experience that I can't do it indefinitely. There are only so much tattooed, pierced, asymmetrical haired princesses I can save. Or exchange energies with, if you like, in the name of "service." When one has his own burden, too much of others' traumas, especially the emotional chaos from communities of decline, can cause revulsion. Because being born on Earth is a trauma in itself, I suppose...

Just think about why, instead of the lovely eyes on your siggy, you didn't display a collage of your piercings, tattoos, beefy arm lifting weights under asymmetrical hairdo? It's because it so much has a social meaning and social stereotypes attached. But what makes you then really different if you allow these memes to control your look? I don't feel entitled to judge you or anyone for that matter, my decision stays, nevertheless, not to associate - not just superficially based on certain looks, but finding all those other little cues in your writing that position you more on the spectrum of higher sociability, thus, being the subject of a shared culture that I happen to not have a taste for. And as we know, cultures, so do people, try to protect themselves from extinction, as well as personalities protect their core nature from being revealed, that's why me arguing about you being sociable enough to qualify as a "Social subtype" in the Enneagram instincts won't necessarily make you change your mind. After all, "non-social" is always defined by what "social" is. I've never been to Poland but if you say trash there is not the same as here, I can't argue with that. Or with someone who gentrifies trash deliberately. Or mocking trash as self-mockery of a self-mockery, etc. If you don't mind, I'll mock (=imitate) my take on what your old man would say: "if you haven't done so already missy, get your stuff together, finish your degree without absences, keep it on the task, exercise moral restraint, learn hard and ask the help of abstract thinkers (if needed) to understand the lies and deceptions we live in and to help you learn doing abstraction as well... and don't be afraid to aim for something higher in your life."


----------

