# Ladies- would you be bothered with your guy going to a strip club?



## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

Meak said:


> If strip clubs were free, they would be Skankier and gross as fuck, therefor not appealing.


unless you're in vegas, they're already skanky anyway.



Meak said:


> It's like cheating emotionally, only more expensive. Strippers encourage men to be convinced that looking at a woman objectively is completely acceptable because most of society deems it so. It's an advert for sex.


I think if a guy is willing to go to a strip club at all, he's already made up his mind about what he thinks women are for. i agree that they put out a bad message, but i think that that message is originating from the men themselves via the strip clubs and not the strip clubs directly. after all, strip clubs wouldn't exist without objectifying men.



Meak said:


> I remember walking into one and choking on the nasty perfumed, baby powdered stench of crotch, booze and sweaty money. The message I clearly see in a strip club is; Have sex= Get stds= have unwanted children= have abortions= become an alcoholic= waste your money on pointless bullshit. Hey, everyone sees it differently I'm sure.


Believe me, an Se male is not going to be thinking that far ahead into the future :crazy: they just get to the naked women part and then zone out.

I'm lucky enough to never have gone into one despite who I live around and hang out with. It's just another thing that I have to constantly reject like weed and booze. I'm am interested however in whether or not T males are more likely to be okay with strip clubs then F males.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Nah, it's probably more N versus S if anything. Though I;m not so sure it's so simple a matter of letter.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lepetitlapin said:


> I'm just curious how you other gals feel about it, and why. Its a topic that's come up several times in my relationship with my current boyfriend, and I gotta say, I am REALLY bothered by the idea of him going. This may partly have to do with the fact that his ex was a stripper/model, but thats a story for another day, maybe....
> Anyways, the whole idea of it is just very upsetting to me- it basically qualifies as cheating, in my mind. The guy is paying some other chick to do sexual things to him: grinding on his dick, rubbing her tits on him, simulating sex etc. I guess I just don't understand why so many girls aren't bothered by this.
> I have no issue at all with him watching porn etc (heck, I watch it too) but going to a strip club seems like stepping over the line from fantasy to reality. I've also heard stories about the 'extra' things most strippers will do for a few extra bucks...
> I'm interested to hear what everyone has to say about this!



I'm not bothered by the idea of him going to a strip club, in and of itself. I _don't _want him spending our money on it though. For one, it's a complete waste of money considering the fact that it's supposed to be a tease. Second, if he really wants a lapdance, I'll give him one...and he doesn't have to keep his hands off! If they're doing more than they're _supposed_ to be doing well...all bets are off...if I know he's there, so am I...and it won't be pretty.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Nah, it's probably more N versus S if anything. Though I;m not so sure it's so simple a matter of letter.


it definitely isn't. i'm just wondering which difference in preference plays the biggest role out of all the ones that do. I know that my F has at least something to do with my dislike for the concept.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

OmarFW said:


> it definitely isn't. i'm just wondering which difference in preference plays the biggest role out of all the ones that do. I know that my F has at least something to do with my dislike for the concept.


Perhaps it merely has to do with the fact that you've never had a bachelor's party? I know men of all types to have gone to strip clubs.


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## lepetitlapin (Mar 3, 2010)

Hmm. I read through the posts since I've last been here, and its getting to be an interesting discussion. However, there are a few things I want to clarify:
My boyfriend does not frequent strip clubs (to the best of my knowledge), he has only brought up that he's curious about them because he's never gone to one before. He's offered for me to come with too, but I still don't think I'm ok with it even then...
Monte- In my mind, porn and strip clubs are VERY different scenarios. Porn is purely fantasy- there is no physical touching or presence of another person. Its all imagination and totally not based in any kind of reality. Strip clubs (to me at least) cross the line from fantasy to reality. The girl is acctually there, she's acctually touching him, and (potentially) he's acctually touching her. Even if there's no sex involved, that is still a very intimate and sexual situation with another person, who is not your significant other. 
Also, I don't feel that I'm an insecure person because I'm uncomfortable with the idea of my boyfriend going to a strip club. I feel like if a person truly loves me, cares about me, respects my feelings, and is physically and emotionally attracted to me, he simply would not go or express any interest in going. If I'm in a relationship, I expect that person to be faithful to me, just as I will to them. When it comes down to it, I don't think most guys would be comfortable with their girls going someplace to pay guys to turn them on. I think it would hurt them just as deeply. 
I don't want to draw any conclusions about some of the comments I've read, but what I'm getting out of a lot of them is that some girls are so desperate for a guy to be with them that they are willing to let a guy do just about anything he wants while in the relationship. It seems like they don't really require many boundries that would keep the relationship...well... a relationship, if you know what I mean. Thats just the impression I'm getting. 
Also, I agree that its natural and normal for people within relationships to look at others while in relationships. I do it all the time, and I'm sure my boyfriend does too. But its either on a computer screen or someone walking down the street (fully clothed, not writhing on my lap). 
I also agree with Meak- "Strippers encourage men to be convinced that looking at a woman objectively is completely acceptable because most of society deems it so." The biggest issue I have with strip clubs in general, not even within my own personal relationship, is that it justifies and encourages women bieng seen as sexual objects for men's enjoyment/ money hungry whores who will do anything for money. And it helps to perpetuate those views both inside and outside the strip club. If my guy was going to one, I would worry about how much he respected me, and what his views on women in general were. 
And I don't think this holds true with male strippers. Males haven't been subject to the same stereotypes, degredation, objectification, and abuse that females have.


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## OrangeAppled (Jun 26, 2009)

It would not be acceptable to me. I can't see how going to a club for the purpose of ogling other nude women to get aroused and even having them in his lap fits in with a monogamous relationship. If it was just some random woman and not a paid stripper in a club, would that behavior be acceptable? Not for me it wouldn't. I'd consider my SO inviting a naked woman to dance in his lap cheating in any other situation. To me, that's veering into foreplay territory...most couples would consider the woman dancing suggestively and naked for her bf/husband to be a foreplay act.

It also says something to me about the way he views women - as objects to please & tease. It teaches one to detach emotionally from sexual experiences, to selfishly focus on your own physical pleasure, and sex in general becomes less intimate.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> Perhaps it merely has to do with the fact that you've never had a bachelor's party? I know men of all types to have gone to strip clubs.


If my buddies hired a stripper for my bachelor party without telling me, i'd be pretty pissed. I am neither comfortable with that kind of scenario nor do I find it appealing. The only kind of woman I can semi view objectively are pornstars. but I don't see those women in person. I can't see a stripper live and in the flesh and not let my Ni go wild and start pondering what her life is like and why she's doing what she's doing. I humanize women in my head and I can't shut that off. though, why would I want to?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Lol. I would never date a person who does such things.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

lepetitlapin said:


> I don't want to draw any conclusions about some of the comments I've read, but what I'm getting out of a lot of them is that some girls are so desperate for a guy to be with them that they are willing to let a guy do just about anything he wants while in the relationship. It seems like they don't really require many boundries that would keep the relationship...well... a relationship, if you know what I mean. Thats just the impression I'm getting.


I know you didn't choose names when you replied, but I am choosing to speak up. Btw, getting you to see things differently is my way of empowering you. 

I say again, in no way am I desperate.

When I am in a relationship, I don't "let" or give "permission" for men to do anything other than be themselves. This is because I respect an individual and know they are not my "pet". However, I control my own behavior and my reaction towards anyone pushing my buttons. 

I have NEVER had the problem with any of my boyfriends or husband asking to go to strip clubs. In fact my boyfriends have often looked at me dumbfoundedly and said, "I can't believe it. I don't even watch porn now that I am with you." See? I don't have that problem you are discussing. However, if it became a discussion, my previously discussed views would apply: where is the logic?

I am sure it can be that way with you as well if you don't cause such an upheaval about the subject. Nobody wants to feel controlled by their partner in a relationship. And many will react negatively if they feel they are being controlled. Your man hasn't even gone to a strip club yet. He only wants to discuss it with you. Isn't that awesome that he is not doing anything behind your back? I personally think he is testing you in regards to your control issues. The way to counter act this is act like you don't care. Seriously, be okay with it. The fact that he is even discussing it, means he either is provoking a reaction from you or honestly wants your input. If you are not okay with it, perhaps you don't trust him and the relationship should end anyway.

I don't judge you for being concerned in regards to this facet in your life. Why are you judging and projecting onto me for merely replying? I've been married before. I know what it's like to be in a monogamous relationship long term. It has nothing to do with desperation. However, it has much to do with negotiation.

And if a woman is "confident' or "okay" with her mate going to a strip club it doesn't mean she is "desperate". Perhaps she is just very secure within herself and believes fully that the man she is with can't find anything "out there" that is as good as what he can get at home.

I believe without a doubt that for success of any relationship, one has to focus on what they can bring to the table rather than focus on what behavior they *expect* from their mate. My best to you.

Click on "Watch on Youtube"!


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

I think pink has a far better understanding of how a males sexuality works than most females on PerC :wink:


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## thetopdog (May 14, 2010)

Wow in New Zealand the patrons aren't even allowed to touch the strippers vice versa so this is a difficult question for me because now I have to actually envisage it and think about it thoroughly.

I think it is appropriate for a male partner to go to a strip club so long as it's not by himself and not a regular thing.


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## thetopdog (May 14, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I'm not bothered by the idea of him going to a strip club, in and of itself. I _don't _want him spending our money on it though. For one, it's a complete waste of money considering the fact that it's supposed to be a tease. Second, if he really wants a lapdance, I'll give him one...and he doesn't have to keep his hands off! If they're doing more than they're _supposed_ to be doing well...all bets are off...if I know he's there, so am I...and it won't be pretty.


you sound a little insecure... you say "it's a complete waste of money" well i'm sure he thinks some of your purchases and activities are as well and anyway how is that relevant to the discussion. Secondly, what if he doesn't want you to give him a lap dance? a lot of men no longer find their women attractive or want another sort of experience. 

I personally think we are autonomous human beings that should be able to live our lives the way we want and let others do the same. If you restrict or confine people of what they want to do than they become unhappy and resentful and will eventually do it behind your back.

Relationships are about TRUST so if he goes to the strip club and does more than is appropriate in those settings or even out of them than get rid of him


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> I know you didn't choose names when you replied, but I am choosing to speak up. Btw, getting you to see things differently is my way of empowering you.
> 
> I say again, in no way am I desperate.
> 
> ...


 
Okay Pink, You say to the OP, that you dont beleive in controlling or making a boyfreind into a pet,.. yet that whole post reeks of manipulation and mind games.
You're advocating 'acting' as if she doesnt care, to engineer some kind of reverse psychology reaction from her boyfreind.
Your method of 'control is simply more subtle and underhanded, thats all. its still trying to get the result you want, isnt it?
You play the game in an old fashioned way, you let the man beleive he's the boss of his own life, whilst playing convoluted mind games with him, being dishonest about your own reactions, and not reacting authentically to 'pushed buttons' to come outthe eventual winner.
Me? Well, i'd rather engage in open and honest confrontation, then insult a mans intelligence with maind games of that type.
If something bothers me, i will not pretend that it does'nt, and in encouraging the Op to handle things this way, you're not empowering her, you're simply suggesting ways in which she can be manipulative.
Yes, thats all we want, more manipulation and mind games and obfuscation.
You also say that you beleive he is testing her 'control issues' by pushing her buttons on this subject, well, if thats the case, he's manipulative too, and her so called 'control issues' are not control issues at all, she is simply stating boundaries if she doesnt agree with him going to clubs. You're setting the OP up to let him get what he wants either way, by either pretending she doesnt care, or by being honest, and saying she doesnt want him to go, thereby he will scream 'controlling woman, insecure!etc etc, either way he wins in this little scenario doesnt he,... and... if hes the type of man to 'test' and 'push buttons' then I would never advise anyone to get into a relationship with that kind of man. 
Clearly, you feel this sort of behaviour is normal, you call it 'negotiation' but it is simply manipulation and mind games by any other name.
You may understand and accept and work around male sexuality, but you sure dont respect them enough to be honest about YOUR real feelings,.. no wonder there are so many divorces and failed relationships when people play these kind of games in relationships about subjects that should be spoken about really honestly, even if it means not hanging in there, and manipulating, just to stay with someone.
I have more respect for men, than to play subtle psychological games with them.
they may not always like my opinions, but at least they know that everything I say, or every reaction of mine is an honest and genuine one.
I dont treat men like little boys.
Plus, asking a man to cease and desist from a behaviour you find degrading, demeaning and disrespectful is not being controlling, its been honest and upfront about your boundaries, thats all. he can of course, take it or leave it...thats REAL choice for him.
Insecurity has nothing to do with this either.
A woman who demands respect and to be treated well is not insecure, rather she is MORE secure, secure enough to be upfront in demanding her right to be treated like a human being worthy of respect.
G. x


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> I believe without a doubt that for success of any relationship, one has to focus on what they can bring to the table rather than focus on what behavior they *expect* from their mate. My best to you.


I think this is one of the most sensible things I've ever read. And pretty much sums up the issues present in most relationships. You're pure awesomeness!


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

I would like to state that if you think a strip club is a complete waste of time, that doesn't make you insecure, Lol. So stupid.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

thetopdog said:


> you sound a little insecure... you say "it's a complete waste of money" well i'm sure he thinks some of your purchases and activities are as well and anyway how is that relevant to the discussion. Secondly, what if he doesn't want you to give him a lap dance? a lot of men no longer find their women attractive or want another sort of experience.


You sound like you have no idea what you're talking about in relation to me. 
The idea that he wouldn't want me to give him a dance never even occured to me. So much for my insecurity. As for the excuse of men feeling so unattracted to their parnters that they feel the need to pay for a sexual service that doesn't even deliver, sounds to me like they're running from their problems...much bigger problems than simply objectifying women. The fact that you'd suggest that this might be an issue for me is absolutely laughable. What are you trying to get at here? You like trying to tear other women down??? Last, if he "wanted another sort of experience", the door isn't that far away. He can walk right out if his values are that misaligned with my own.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

thetopdog said:


> you sound a little insecure...


I didn't get that from her post at all, plus this comment is a bit rude in my opinion.



thetopdog said:


> a lot of men no longer find their women attractive or want another sort of experience.


Interesting. I often find that a person takes something negative from their own personal experiences, and then assumes that most others must be how their disappointing exs must be. A lot of people tend to make a habit out of dating these fools, then their views are tainted, and they think that its more widespread than it is. My suggestion to people who do this, would be to perhaps break the pattern of dating the wrong type, and find someone who doesn't reaffirm such a negative view. Basically, you don't have to keep dating men who don't find you attractive after a while. You probably really are, and surely theres someone who can see that.



OmarFW said:


> I think pink has a far better understanding of how a males sexuality works than most females on PerC :wink:


Once again, I see you have appointed yourself the authority on male sexuality.

Having a penis =/= Being the authority on all male's sexuality.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

ok. I think there is a little too much projecting on both sides.
It is possible to be secure and let (let is a bad word but I can think of no other at the moment) your guy go to a strip club)
It is possible to be secure and not want your guy to go.

It is a matter of values too, not just security, 
If your values are truly opposed, you will not be ok with it. And you are not necessarily controlling their actions. Maybe just your own - you can leave. But can we not lose sight of the fact that the OP's boyfriend_ asked_ her opinion? Not as a favour, she shouldn't be_ grateful_ it wasn't behind her back. She deserves that. She's a part of the relationship and he clearly considers her relevant. He wants to know her opinion, her reaction, so he can treat her properly and not hurt her (hopefully it was for the good reasons anyway). If he is totally obsessed with such clubs it may come out that his need to go there is a dealbreaker - and her distaste of them may be a dealbreaker too, in which case they can talk of it. Like adults, with no mindgames. But point is - he wanted to hnow her opinion, and she has a right to it. She is not imposing it on him, or controlling him. He is _asking_ her about an issue that has potential to threaten their relationship. Can we get off our high horses please?

To dislike strip clubs doesn't automatically mean you treat women like humans - there are other ways you could go wrong. And to approve of them, especially as a women, doesn't mean you believe in sexual freedom and everyone else is a prude. Get over yourselves alreaady. Even if you _do_ have your opinions for the good reasons, doesn't mean those that disagree do so for stupid reasons. Foor goodness' sake.


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

This thread has so quickly filled with awful mindsets that I'm hesitant to post in it. Logic and reason could very well be lost in a sea of superficiality and faux rationality.

I initially hesitated to reply when this thread was first posted because the OP didn't want opinions from men. But I see now that my morals and values are being attacked because I'm a man and the sexuality of men is being negatively stereotyped by certain people. Combating these stereotypes is always an uphill battle because for some reason its perfectly acceptable to negatively stereotype men.

First off, the underlying theme of this thread is equality and the objectification of women. Most cultures in this world are deeply misogynistic. Contempt for a person based on them being female is EVERYWHERE. Whether it be in the workplace, or in the media, or in day to day life, its everywhere. It takes many forms as well. From placing heavier standards on women, to marginalizing their worth, to objectifying and dehumanizing them, to flat out barring them from things.

Why do I care? I could go into lengthy descriptions about my beliefs on equality and justice, or my ruminations on humanity and individuality, but instead I'll sum it up with an anecdotal statement; I have a 13 year old sister, and my mind cringes in terror and anger when I think about all the things she'll have to go through in life merely for the fact that she is not a male.


With that being said, on to the subject at hand. Stripping is the objectification of women, the marginalization of their worth to a few dollars vulgarly slipped into their undergarments or thrown at them. Its the reinforcement of the belief that a woman's sexuality is a commodity to be bought, sold, and consumed rather than valued as part of an individuals being. Stripping, like porn, is _usually_ degrading to the women that have turned to it for a source of income. There are, of course, exceptions to all of this. But we're not discussing the exceptions, we're talking about the unfortunate individuals that have no other means but to sell off their sexuality to the sorts of people who have no regard for it anyway.


I cannot even fathom WHY people would enjoy going to strip clubs other than that they are superficial people that can't see past some tits in their face. Do they have such and unrefined and base understanding of their own sexuality that any set of tits will do? Are their attractions so animal in nature that anything crassly sexual will excite them? I can't say its all true for certain, but it certainly appears to be that way when you inspect it.

What I see in this thread is a lot of S-type behavior. People that go to strip clubs fail to see past the naked women on stage and the flashing lights. They fail to see past the immediacy of the experience to the underlying reality. The reality is that person on stage is a human being whose hopes and dreams did not include being gawked at by pigs. They fail to see the psychological effects that woman is undergoing by attempting to disconnect her sexuality from herself and sell it off. All they take in is some naked women and the perverse camaraderie of other men like themselves.

The disgusting part about strip clubs is not the female form. The disgusting part is the dehumanization of a person to nothing more than a commodity to be consumed.



Now, on to committed relationships. I personally enter into a relationship with someone out of the desire for mutual intimate companionship. I want someone in my life that I can turn to above all others, that turns to me above all others. I want a singular person in my life to engage intimately and sexually with, that I can look to in order to fulfill my sexual desires and know that they want the same from me. I want someone with whom I can share the trivial tasks in life as a companion. And I want these all to be the same person. These are the things I expect when I enter into a relationship with someone.

For all those things to be the case, many things between this person an I have to be true. We both have to have similar values and interests. We both must desire the same general lifestyle. We both must be attracted to each other to where neither of us will seek someone else. Those, among other things, must be true or the relationship will fail. If we have dissimilar values, we will be put off by each other when those value conflicts arise. If we have incongruent lifestyle goals, we will eventually grow apart. If we aren't thoroughly attracted to each other, someone is going to be open to having their desires fulfilled by someone outside the relationship. These are my ideals in a relationship, and I understand that not everyone holds the same ideals.

For me, the values of a person that wants to go to a strip club do not include the things I stated earlier in this post. Why a woman would want to be in a relationship with a man that supports such things is beyond me. If you want to go to a strip club, you support our cultures belittlement of women whether you comprehend what you're doing or not.

Also, I have no idea why a woman would want to be in a relationship with someone that expressly states they want to be sexually stimulated by someone else. Boggles my fucking mind.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

I think this isn't so much an argument of strip clubs in general but strip clubs in the presence of a relationship


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

"Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim, Telegraph,16 Feb 2009
Source: Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim - Telegraph

Researches who scanned the brains of men as they look at photographs of a women in a bikini have found that for some men, sections of their brains that usually reacts to objects light up. In addition, parts of the brain which is turned on during social interaction is deactivated when sexist men saw the photograph. Hence such men when seeing women who are scantily clad, start to dehumanize them and see them as objects. Professor Susan Fiske said that this could be due to the mass media which is filled with images of highly sexualised women. 

This research show that the sexualisation of women in the media indeed as adverse consequences. In his lectures the Prof said that part of 3rd wave feminism could be the "asserting of female tease" as seen with the Pussy Cat Dolls. However, this research shows that, this hardly empowers women. In fact it will probably lead to an increase in the objectification of women."


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Honestly, I'd like to see the proof it causes damage. It sounds a lot like the tv causes violence argument. More an issue of pervasive influence, not cause and effect. And even if there is cause, who knows which direction it works in? It's probably more of a feedback loop. But does it function at an individual level, at a societal level, both? I haven't read the studies.
> 
> Despised minority is all very well, but are they a minority? They seem very good at convincing people they they are a majority, with normal sexual urges, and that the minorities are the "controlling prudes." There's a lot of perception to fight.
> 
> The main reason I propose recognising the distinctions is that the marginalising approach will push away the people who _aren't_ just sexist assholes and simply don't see what the big deal is. Societal sexism may help the blindness but it's not always individual sexism. To me it seems better to help them understand what the big deal _actually_ is, then to judge them, call them sexist horrible pigs and condemn them unheard. There are plenty of explanations on this thread of why it's bad - real ones too, not just the moral outrage - and these are things these people could hear, and maybe they would start caring. Maybe not so much because it doesn't play into what they consider important, maybe we'd need other arguments, but it is a start. There _are_ those who are just sexist pigs who deserve to be marginalised (I like to think they're a minority though at times I think it's only a hope) but I do not think that tactic works on everyone. That and some people are just sad, pathetic, lonely, and pitiable. Contempt and rage are all very well but rarely are they _functional._ They just exclude. They don't change people. Not for the better, anyway.


Im willing to accept that proposing distinctions and info and education at all levels may work, its very much good cop, bad cop stuff, I imagine, I'm hardline on this, maybe your way would work best, and yres, the perceptions are going to be hard to shift, anything that is pleasurable to humans is hard for them to voluntarilly give up, but its doable, I'm sure.
I think, in the meantime, I woud always advice women to not accept this in their personal lives, of course its their choice ultimately, but the big bad ole media is a double edged sword, its possible that the very same mechanisms of media that have copounded these problems, can be turned to advantage, to make changes in mass numbers of peoples consciousness about these issues.
still grass roots level... best not to tolerate it, I beleive, thats just my opinion, of course. G. x


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> I think this isn't so much an argument of strip clubs in general but strip clubs in the presence of a relationship


I don't think you're understanding the issues here. Why would a woman wants to be with someone that view her as merely an object? Though that might not be the totality of their view, even small aspects of it are degrading and humiliating.

Why are you unable to comprehend the fact that these are human beings we're discussing? Why does your opinion of this change once the people involved are identified as women?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Goodewitch said:


> Im willing to accept that proposing distinctions and info and education at all levels may work, its very much good cop, bad cop stuff, I imagine, I'm hardline on this, maybe your way would work best, and yres, the perceptions are going to be hard to shift, anything that is pleasurable to humans is hard for them to voluntarilly give up, but its doable, I'm sure.
> I think, in the meantime, I woud always advice women to not accept this in their personal lives, of course its their choice ultimately, but the big bad ole media is a double edged sword, its possible that the very same mechanisms of media that have copounded these problems, can be turned to advantage, to make changes in mass numbers of peoples consciousness about these issues.
> still grass roots level... best not to tolerate it, I beleive, thats just my opinion, of course. G. x


Oh I don't fucking tolerate it in my life. I hate that shit. I just don't like people imposing their interpretations of someone else's _minds_ when there are multiple possibilities. There are people who see it differently.


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Oh I don't fucking tolerate it in my life. I hate that shit. I just don't like people imposing their interpretations of someone else's _minds_ when there are multiple possibilities. There are people who see it differently.


I encounter this fallacy a lot when discussing things with people.

Ones opinions and viewpoint do nothing to alter objective reality. Just because someone thinks something is true or okay doesn't mean it is actually true or okay.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> "Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim, Telegraph,16 Feb 2009
> Source: Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim - Telegraph
> 
> Researches who scanned the brains of men as they look at photographs of a women in a bikini have found that for some men, sections of their brains that usually reacts to objects light up. In addition, parts of the brain which is turned on during social interaction is deactivated when sexist men saw the photograph. Hence such men when seeing women who are scantily clad, start to dehumanize them and see them as objects. Professor Susan Fiske said that this could be due to the mass media which is filled with images of highly sexualised women.
> ...


One, it's a preliminary study with 21 people.
Two, it's when they're almost naked and have no head.
Three, it's highly correlated with hostile sexist attitudes.
Bikinis make men see women as sex objects Seduction Labs

That and it's drawing a hell of a conclusion. Do they see "Women" that way? Or do they see a picture presenting women as sex objects? And if they see naked women, do they somehow make the cognitive leap that all women are objects, or are they just thinking in terms of boning her rather than having a conversation with her? And is that a surprise?


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Accepting something perpetuates it. No, there are no acceptable reasons to engage oneself with the sex industry, in any way. Each thought potentially leads to action; each action takes away from the meaning and value of sex as a whole. There is no harmless way to accept or engage, because that tiny affirmation works with every other, to build it into something very powerful and widespread.. touching all of our lives - and I don't think that a healthy relationship includes the commodified sexual novelty of other images. It lacks the meaning that it could have otherwise.
> 
> I once read a book that put my own thoughts into a different sort of framework, in its explanation. Basically it goes through the psychology of getting acquainted with sex as novelty.. and how when you do this, you need more and more, or something different, all the time. Now either you just stay in this mode where you constantly need new sexual novelty - or you realize how utterly unsatisfying it is, and try to explore sex with meaning. The intensity that comes from knowing that you and your partner share a more meaningful bond makes it much more exciting. That head-spinny feeling that you get the first time you have sex with a strong infatuation, can actually exist with your mate even over time. There was also a bit that I agree with about an important part of meaningful sex, having to do with both partners seeking to pleasure the other, as much as possible.. and as they do this simultaneously they are giving and receiving the most pleasure possible. I think that the mind and body are designed for this, between partners. As for finding that meaning, well a lot of it is personal to you, and something thats just more intuitive to me.
> 
> ...


I like how no one is even bothering to argue against this aspect of it all. Its just a bunch of nitpicking side points and irrelevancies... might as well /thread.


Thank you for this post, it does well to put to words some of the things I feel about this. Especially the rippling effect of the actions of certain people.


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> I encounter this fallacy a lot when discussing things with people.
> 
> Ones opinions and viewpoint do nothing to alter objective reality. Just because someone thinks something is true or okay doesn't mean it is actually true or okay.


You beat me to it Amen,.. I was just composing a post about this,.. its a whole perception thing, I know, but sometimes there are things that are just wrong and harmful, no matter how many people think its 'okay'
This is how laws are made, lines must be drawn somewhere. 
Same with issues of societal morality and collective acceptability. some things, are just not ok.
Thats why sometimes societal condemnation is needed in certain issues.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> I encounter this fallacy a lot when discussing things with people.
> 
> Ones opinions and viewpoint do nothing to alter objective reality. Just because someone thinks something is true or okay doesn't mean it is actually true or okay.


Two words: STRAW MAN

Which is why I never argued that it was OK. Just that if they don't think of women as less than human, then they don't think of woman as less then human. The fact that they participate in something dehumanising doesn't control all their thoughts. Just like those who shop at Walmart don't necessarily hate all the employees there. Mainly they're just not thinking about the context or consequences at all. So if you blame them for something, blame them for their actions - not for thoughts they're _not_ having. Or blame them for _not_ thinking of certain things you believe they should be aware of. Blame them for something they're actually guilty of. I'm not saying thinking differently means it's ok, but just that I'm appalled I have to point it out. People think differently.

You have no idea what I'm arguing. You seem to think I'm arguing for a stupid conclusion when all I'm saying is that there are people who don't see all the filth you do in this. So if they enjoy it, it's not for the filth. Don't judge and hate them for enjoying the filth aspect. To them it's just nudity. Body parts. And no, it's not "women are only body parts" - women are not the issue; body parts are the issue. I'm not talking about the sexist pigs - they've been _well _covered. I'm talking about people who don't take it very seriously - who don't realise they should. Those who don't think they're hurting anyone and who would be massively offended if you called them sexist because, although they like looking at naked women (and occasionally paying for the privilege) they do not see it as degredation, they see it as the women making easy cash. Which means, although they participate in somethings skeazy, it is without the interpretation and awareness that makes it especially vile. Again, it's still bad and I still think it's wrong, at least by my values - but a different tactic, a different form of blame is in order.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> I don't think you're understanding the issues here. Why would a woman wants to be with someone that view her as merely an object? Though that might not be the totality of their view, even small aspects of it are degrading and humiliating.
> 
> Why are you unable to comprehend the fact that these are human beings we're discussing? Why does your opinion of this change once the people involved are identified as women?


I think you are misinterpreting my opinion tbh :crazy:
I agree that these kinds of men are pigs. I have never once agreed with that. at the same time I refuse to take an extremist view on anything. I used my father and other men I know as examples of what men should NOT act like


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Holy cow. I cannot comprehend the judgment and hatred expressed by some here. Are you that harsh about everyone who does not share your opinions and values, or is this a particular sore spot for some reason? 



Amenophis said:


> "Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim, Telegraph,16 Feb 2009
> Source: Men really do see half naked women as 'objects', scientists claim - Telegraph
> 
> Researches who scanned the brains of men as they look at photographs of a women in a bikini have found that for some men, sections of their brains that usually reacts to objects light up. In addition, parts of the brain which is turned on during social interaction is deactivated when sexist men saw the photograph. Hence such men when seeing women who are scantily clad, start to dehumanize them and see them as objects. Professor Susan Fiske said that this could be due to the mass media which is filled with images of highly sexualised women.
> ...


This study was interesting in some ways but not very good and the conclusion not very sound. The study had few if any controls. They didn't have women in the study. They didn't have men actually look at pictures of tools to make a real comparison. And why would they have the men looking at pictures of headless women? What was the point of that, if not to steer the "experiment" toward a particular conclusion?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Nitou said:


> Holy cow. I cannot comprehend the judgment and hatred expressed by some here. Are you that harsh about everyone who does not share your opinions and values, or is this a particular sore spot for some reason?
> 
> 
> 
> This study was interesting in some ways but not very good and the conclusion not very sound. The study had few if any controls. They didn't have women in the study. They didn't have men actually look at pictures of tools to make a real comparison. And why would they have the men looking at pictures of headless women? What was the point of that, if not to steer the "experiment" toward a particular conclusion?


You should see the other studies that scientist does. She's clearly got an agenda.


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

Nitou said:


> Holy cow. I cannot comprehend the judgment and hatred expressed by some here. Are you that harsh about everyone who does not share your opinions and values, or is this a particular sore spot for some reason?


Are you seriously not understanding the issue, or is lack of comprehension a sore spot for you?

Now that we have the condescending tones out of the way... No, I am not "that harsh" about everyone that does not share my opinions and values. When those opinions and values thoroughly and stealthily help undermine the fabric of society, yes I'm pretty fucking harsh about rooting them out.

Mindless consumerism, objectification of human beings, decay of values, and propagation of ignorance are some of the main elements of the decay of our society and culture. If I didn't have to deal with our society and culture on a daily basis, I would not care. But its all forced on me, so I HAVE to care. Objectification of women is indeed a sore spot for me because I have a mother, I have sisters, I have friends, and I'm in love with someone. They are all negatively impacted by the fact that they are female in a society and culture that is caustic to females.




Nitou said:


> This study was interesting in some ways but not very good and the conclusion not very sound. The study had few if any controls. They didn't have women in the study. They didn't have men actually look at pictures of tools to make a real comparison. And why would they have the men looking at pictures of headless women? What was the point of that, if not to steer the "experiment" toward a particular conclusion?


Weak as it may have been, I found it in seconds from a simple google search. And it still goes to back all this. Unless you're saying its not the case? Are you really arguing that the experiments findings are invalid?


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

lirulin said:


> You should see the other studies that scientist does. She's clearly got an agenda.


Wow... care to elaborate? 

--> Susan Fiske's Princeton Website.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> Wow... care to elaborate?
> 
> --> Susan Fiske's Princeton Website.


Her intentions seem honourable and valuable, but the bias in the studies I have scanned (admittedly not all) show little hope of generating real scientific understanding. Like the one you linked - the bias is clear and damaging to the results. Hopefully the ones I have not read are better. But that ones and some others - it may mildly support a prejudice but it is barely evidence, not proof, the conclusions are unwarranted, and it can hardly be called science. It's disappointing, as we do need real science on these topics. People may want to believe the studies, but not b_ecause_ of the studies, but because they already believe the conclusions.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)




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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Her intentions seem honourable and valuable, but the bias in the studies I have scanned (admittedly not all) show little hope of generating real scientific understanding. Like the one you linked - the bias is clear and damaging to the results. Hopefully the ones I have not read are better. But that ones and some others - it may mildly support a prejudice but it is barely evidence, not proof, the conclusions are unwarranted, and it can hardly be called science. It's disappointing, as we do need real science on these topics. People may want to believe the studies, but not b_ecause_ of the studies, but because they already believe the conclusions.


Care to link the studies you scanned and show me how the bias is clear in them?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> Care to link the studies you scanned and show me how the bias is clear in them?


You just linked to her official page. Can you really not find them from there? Or a simple google search?

Also, you do understand the bias in the study you linked, right? Because if that's an issue, we may be up all night and I may not want to bother.


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## Amenophis (Apr 18, 2010)

lirulin said:


> You just linked to her official page. Can you really not find them from there? Or a simple google search?


No no... I'm asking you. Because I know full well that her studies are not available from the page I just linked. I'm asking you because I KNOW you didn't skim through ANYTHING and you're talking out your ass. I'm just trying to figure out why. If you've run out of reasonable arguments, please don't hop on the Nitou Ignorance Wagon.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> No no... I'm asking you. Because I know full well that her studies are not available from the page I just linked. I'm asking you because I KNOW you didn't skim through ANYTHING and you're talking out your ass. I'm just trying to figure out why. If you've run out of reasonable arguments, please don't hop on the Nitou Ignorance Wagon.


I'm a librarian. I have database access through my library. And citation information, a few links (+ IP authentication for me anyway) on that page. Do you have anything through a school or something? Most people on here are in school. Or do you just want to make reckless, angry, rude accusations?

Also, _now_ I'm assuming you're ignorant given your willingness to attack someone for no good reason. And no, I won't hold your hand and explain bias to you, given that this question was not asked in good faith.

If you really are interested in understanding things and have no library access, try looking for news articles about the studies, But don't fucking bug me anymore.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

Nitou said:


> Holy cow. I cannot comprehend the judgment and hatred expressed by some here. Are you that harsh about everyone who does not share your opinions and values, or is this a particular sore spot for some reason?


I've found that for some reason PerC is divided into two different extremist groups when it comes to human sexuality topics. the people who are pro-nature and the people who are pro-fundamentals. I try to stay in the middle since my opinion varies by topic but every time i inch towards one side or the other the opposite party jumps on my back as if they are righting some sort of major wrong.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> Oh just wait, they'll start questioning my credibility as a man to make these statements. They'll either tell me what it means to be a man or they'll say I don't count because I'm different.


Nah I'm not going to say that, I agree with some of what you said, but you are catering to the majority in this thread.


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## walkawaysun09 (Mar 13, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> I've found that for some reason PerC is divided into two different extremist groups when it comes to human sexuality topics. the people who are pro-nature and the people who are pro-fundamentals. I try to stay in the middle since my opinion varies by topic but every time i inch towards one side or the other the opposite party jumps on my back as if they are righting some sort of major wrong.



You forget that when you play with NF's or F's in general...you get a lot of heavy duty emotional responses...as an INFP, you should know this, that you feel very strongly about something and don't back down.


I'm not surprised in the slightest this thread has turned into such a heated discussion...with two very obvious camps showing up. It's one of those few issues, that if you went to other countries outside of the United States, might have completely different perspective (say, Sweeden/Norway) from ours. Accept that this is going to require you to actually back up your belief with something concrete...be it a personal story or some study (however flawed it may be) to stay in this debate.

Just giving you tips so you don't duck out too early, it's just too much fun to watch and take part in to let it just...turn into one side giving up (even if I disagree with you...A LOT).


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## Fanille (Sep 3, 2009)

Back in the day, when I was young and stupid, I used to get excited about going to strip clubs, but for the reasons everyone's already mentioned in this thread, they're not as cool as they sound and I most certainly wouldn't go into one by myself.

It would be kind of fun to go with my girl (hypothetically speaking, since I'm single atm), though, just to watch girl-on-girl lapdances. :crazy:

And if I become rich and famous one day, I can "make it rain" just to show off how rich I am. :tongue:


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

lirulin said:


> I wouldn't excuse it or condone it in a boyfriend and I am not an apologist. Just this self-righteous bullshit is getting on my nerves. I am attempting to point out that it is not black and white. Jeebus. There is always guilt in my view, just different levels of it.
> 
> There is a difference between mens rea and actus rea. If someone has no intention or understanding of the harm they are causing, they are not equally guilty. It can be explained to them, but shrilly condemning them for participating in the objectification of women - something we all participate in to a greater or lesser degree or have you never paid money to see a stupid movie? - will not convince them but just make them feel like the target of a witchhunt run by hypocrites. It doesn't seem effective.
> 
> ...


Yea I gotta agree with this, I have been to strip clubs and enjoyed the services offered but I also thought about this very situation then and since then, I wondered why they do what they do and was convinced that they would not do so if their circumstances were more forgiving, but I was not there to dehumanise them or help them at all, I was there with mates for a good time, it wasn't just strippers either, we had a few drinks and played pool. Just having a good time.

I do remember one girl who was laid out on a table naked with about 4 guys sitting in front of her 'taking in the sights', I was coming out of the toilet and heading back to my mates but I caught her eye and she seemed unhappy, I wondered if she was miserable or if she was angry that I was viewing what I had not paid for. I also observed several men who appeared to be on their own and thought to myself why would a guy come here alone, it does seem odd and I would not go alone myself. Interestingly enough I also observed two lesbians with a male friend, and they were more into it than anyone. They seemed to have a great time and put a smile on the strippers face. Further more I saw one of the strippers leave with what I would say was a lesbian lover, I didn't ask her of course.



lirulin said:


> It is a matter of degree, but of scale also. There are things that we do far more often, more regularly, than most people go to strip clubs. And we have less mental resistance to their assumptions because they are considered acceptable. I wonder which has more effect?
> 
> Honestly, I'd like to see the proof it causes damage. It sounds a lot like the tv causes violence argument. More an issue of pervasive influence, not cause and effect. And even if there is cause, who knows which direction it works in? It's probably more of a feedback loop. But does it function at an individual level, at a societal level, both? I haven't read the studies.
> 
> ...


Yea the scale is important, I have only been to a strip club twice, enjoyed both times both times but I have indulged in things like grid girls at a race, movies showing attractive women in not much at all, glamor photography etc. many times, no one gets all moral crusader on my ass for that, nor I on any woman enjoying the sight of Brad Pitt or w/e they like these days.

The second time I went to the strippers I was the one who said lets go to the strippers, I mainly did this for a reaction to be honest, this second circle of mates was not the type I would espect to see in such a place especially one of them. They said sure and I was shocked but got over it and off and we went. So I think the action does perpetuate itself.

Now that one mate who I was especially surprised at wanting to go was very interesting in that he was um... active, he would just pick a girl (had good taste), a few words, some cash and off they went for a private lapdance. I also ended up in a glass room with him and the others with one girl doing the rounds, he caught her off guard by putting mouth to nipple haha. His actions did change my perspective on him and people in general after that, they are never what they seem and putting people into a small pre-defined box is foolish (but hard not too at times).

As for degradation of women, I hate it but it has to be what I think is serious degradation or even victimization, for example I hate that Muslim men force Muslim women to cover themselves head to toe, I'm very very much against this and fully support Belgium's recent decision to ban Burqas.

I don't really have a point here, just sharing my experience & point of view on the topic.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

walkawaysun09 said:


> You forget that when you play with NF's or F's in general...you get a lot of heavy duty emotional responses...as an INFP, you should know this, that you feel very strongly about something and don't back down.


sometimes. but my type 9'ishness keeps me from wanting to further any kind of argument. i never argue, i simply sort out any misconceptions people might have from what i originally said and when i've said my peace i back down and ignore anymore attempts to further the argument.

but that does make sense.



walkawaysun09 said:


> (even if I disagree with you...A LOT).


about what exactly? seems to me like we have the same opinion just on varying levels of neutrality


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

Amenophis said:


> Are you seriously not understanding the issue, or is lack of comprehension a sore spot for you?
> 
> Now that we have the condescending tones out of the way... No, I am not "that harsh" about everyone that does not share my opinions and values. When those opinions and values thoroughly and stealthily help undermine the fabric of society, yes I'm pretty fucking harsh about rooting them out. Mindless consumerism, objectification of human beings, decay of values, and propagation of ignorance are some of the main elements of the decay of our society and culture.


Fair enough. But I've seen arguments against gay marriage that were similar in their concerns about cultural decay. Not quite the same, but I am suspicious of the implication here that strip clubs undermine the fabric of society. I think that is too much responsibility to place on the strip club. "Mindless consumerism, objectification of human beings, decay of values, and propagation of ignorance" are broad and vague issues. Sex has probably been used as a commodity for longer than human history, and probably considered a moral issue for almost as long. Among the "sins" the human commit, I think it is relatively minor. 



> If I didn't have to deal with our society and culture on a daily basis, I would not care. But its all forced on me, so I HAVE to care. Objectification of women is indeed a sore spot for me because I have a mother, I have sisters, I have friends, and I'm in love with someone. They are all negatively impacted by the fact that they are female in a society and culture that is caustic to females.


Background makes a difference in our perspectives. I have never felt that society is caustic to me as a female. I have never felt objectified specifically as a woman. A lot of people- not just strippers- work in jobs that are physically and mentally taxing, difficult, dehumanizing and dangerous. 



> Weak as it may have been, I found it in seconds from a simple google search. And it still goes to back all this. Unless you're saying its not the case? Are you really arguing that the experiments findings are invalid?


I think the study is incomplete for the reasons I mentioned. I think it is common knowledge, or should be, that women ought to be mindful of the way they dress and that sexual images are not appropriate in the workplace. That misogynist men have less empathy toward women is unsurprising. To use the study as proof that male sexuality is generally pathological, as the psychologist seems to do, is incorrect.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

The ability that some people have to completely ignore logic and the bigger picture, absolutely astounds me. 

.. And, it gets very tiring to try to sort out the tangled web of cognitive dissonance in others, sometimes.

A few of you will know -exactly- what I mean by this. :wink:


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## DarklyValentine (Mar 4, 2010)

isn't this objectification ors it sleaze i always get those two mixed up. And would there be outrage if it twere the other way about wicked muses. I cant think of the girl equivalent save say a shoe shop numbering shoes to infinity.

Wicked moon walks nakid out of this one, save a crafty placed crafted tinfoil thong and slippers to die for.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

Back at the OP. I was thinking:

If your guy is young and wants to check out a strip club you could play a little game with him -- just for fun and to give him a jolt of reality of how this might feel for you.

Tell him okay, he can go, but you want to go to a male strip club too.
Go with your girl friends.
When you get back, tell him it was okay, "interesting." but no more.
Then one night when you're not there, have your friend and your boyfriend together at some occassion and, "oops" she accidently tells him about all the hot guys, especially this one guy in particular who looked like an adonis and had a really big "thingy" and how he had his eye on (the OP) the whole night and even "propositioned" her. 
Of course, all of this "slips" out, maybe a bit too much vodka?

Something tells me he won't be visiting strip clubs ever again, if you like the idea too and want to go to your stip club to see this Adonis...

Of course you deny everything, "no, he wasn't." and blah, blah, blah" but it's already in his head. hehe. And he won't be able to stand it!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Course this is playing mind games and I don't know if I could be bothered to go through the trouble myself, but it's just something fun to think about.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

amanda32 said:


> Back at the OP. I was thinking:
> 
> If your guy is young and wants to check out a strip club you could play a little game with him -- just for fun and to give him a jolt of reality of how this might feel for you.
> 
> ...



You make it sound as it it's the 1950s and women going to male strip clubs is some sort of daring thing. There's nothing wrong with women in relationships going to male strip clubs, and your idea is nothing more than childishness. If someone was uncomfortable with the idea of their partner going to a strip club, they should tell their partner that, and if their partner doesn't respect those feelings then they need to have a discussion.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

skycloud86 said:


> You make it sound as it it's the 1950s and women going to male strip clubs is some sort of daring thing. There's nothing wrong with women in relationships going to male strip clubs, and your idea is nothing more than childishness. If someone was uncomfortable with the idea of their partner going to a strip club, they should tell their partner that, and if their partner doesn't respect those feelings then they need to have a discussion.


Exactly, it is childish. But the idea of a man wanting to go to a stripclub is also childish. 
And like a stubborn brat he'll rebel and resent not getting his way.

It may not be the 1950's but men still get jealous, no?
My guess is (though I could be wrong), that the OP has already expressed her feelings and the boyfriend is want to ignore them.

And like I said, it's not something I could be bothered to do -- it was just a fun idea.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

amanda32 said:


> Exactly, it is childish. But the idea of a man wanting to go to a stripclub is also childish.
> And like a stubborn brat he'll rebel and resent not getting his way.


Why would he act like a stubborn brat? Because he's a man?



> It may not be the 1950's but men still get jealous, no?


Yeah, but he would have to be quite insecure to get jealous over some stripper.



> My guess is (though I could be wrong), that the OP has already expressed her feelings and the boyfriend is want to ignore them.


Probably.



> And like I said, it's not something I could be bothered to do -- it was just a fun idea.


OK.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Fun? More like immature.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

skycloud86 said:


> Why would he act like a stubborn brat? Because he's a man?


No, because he's that _type_ of man.





skycloud86 said:


> Yeah, but he would have to be quite insecure to get jealous over some stripper


.

lol. I'm betting the majority of men wouldn't like the woman they loved seeing a hot naked guy who is really well endowed giving his girlfriend a lapdance. Call me crazy.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

amanda32 said:


> No, because he's that _type_ of man.


OK.



> lol. I'm betting the majority of men wouldn't like the woman they loved seeing a hot naked guy who is really well endowed giving his girlfriend a lapdance. Call me crazy.


Probably, but to assume it's anything more than platonic would be insecurity on his part.


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> OK.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably, but to assume it's anything more than platonic would be insecurity on his part.


 
Oh, I dunno , to assume that it IS platonic would be delusional I reckon 
After all, no one goes to strip clubs to make freinds, now do they?
I agree with Amanda on this one.
Seems to me that neither male nor female really wants a partner doing this, except for the exceptions to the rules, of which there are always a few.
seems to me, overall, people just sabotage a good thing when they have it.. the words to Big Yellow taxi spring to mind when i think of men and some women effing up good relationships to be bratty kids and fight for their right to 'Do what they hell i like and YOU cant stop me'
Uhuh, strip clubs = immaturity, no matter what the age of the guy.
G. x


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

A good friend of mine yesterday told me that usually guys/girls when they go for a bachelor/bachelorette party, they want to get it out, do the shit they need to do before being committed for the rest of their lives, but that perhaps they're not ready for marriage if they even have to do this. If you choose to commit yourself, make sure you're ready first. How do you determine this within one night? Because if you don't wake up next to a naked person and only watched them? What is the difference? You're still cheating emotionally. You're watching this blob walk around, seeing it as a sexual object. Where is the logic in that?

It's considered 'tradition' for both partners to have this skank fest the night before they say their I do's, yet I really consider it leisure, and I'd have to say that I think these 'traditions' are just an excuse. 
If you want to go do shit before you get hitched, go jump off of a building with a parachute. Or do you not have the nads to do so? Oh, watching a half naked person is more exhilarating? That's a little retarded to me. 

The last I checked, I thought sex was suppose to be sacred, not displayed like a piece of dangling meat in front of a dog.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

Meak said:


> A good friend of mine yesterday told me that usually guys/girls when they go for a bachelor/bachelorette party, they want to get it out, do the shit they need to do before being committed for the rest of their lives, but that perhaps they're not ready for marriage if they even have to do this. If you choose to commit yourself, make sure you're ready first. How do you determine this within one night? Because if you don't wake up next to a naked person and only watched them? What is the difference? You're still cheating emotionally. You're watching this blob walk around, seeing it as a sexual object. Where is the logic in that?
> 
> It's considered 'tradition' for both partners to have this skank fest the night before they say their I do's, yet I really consider it leisure, and I'd have to say that I think these 'traditions' are just an excuse.
> If you want to go do shit before you get hitched, go jump off of a building with a parachute. Or do you not have the nads to do so? Oh, watching a half naked person is more exhilarating? That's a little retarded to me.
> ...


I could be wrong, but I don't think it was always this way. I think this is a rather new "tradition". 
IDK, all I can say is the kind of guy I'd marry wouldn't be interested in strippers.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

amanda32 said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think it was always this way. I think this is a rather new "tradition".
> IDK, all I can say is the kind of guy I'd marry wouldn't be interested in strippers.


Saaame here. I would worry though, that perhaps his friends might try and drag him out to do this. 
I'm not sure how new it is, but regardless, it's stupid.


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

Meak said:


> The last I checked, I thought sex was suppose to be sacred, not displayed like a piece of dangling meat in front of a dog.


Sex is supposed to be sacred? Since when? Sure some people may view it as sacred, but I do believe most people have sex simply because they feel the urge to do it, and it feels good.

Is sex between animals sacred? How are humans different?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

What if it were your boyfriend's best friend's bachelor party? And he wanted to be there for his friend, didn't plan the stripping thing, but wanted to go because his friend was getting married and he wanted to be there for his big party. Would you attack him for that? Our would your blanket moral condemnation make an exception for that at least, realising it wasn't his fault?


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> Sex is supposed to be sacred? Since when? Sure some people may view it as sacred, but I do believe most people have sex simply because they feel the urge to do it, and it feels good.
> 
> Is sex between animals sacred? How are humans different?


Speak for yourself.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Meak said:


> Saaame here. I would worry though, that perhaps his friends might try and drag him out to do this.
> I'm not sure how new it is, but regardless, it's stupid.


I was just thinking about this while making a cup of tea, the only reasons I could think of in that short amount of time for a guy in a relationship to go to a strip club would be peer pressure or not getting what he needs from his partner.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

lirulin said:


> What if it were your boyfriend's best friend's bachelor party? And he wanted to be there for his friend, didn't plan the stripping thing, but wanted to go because his friend was getting married and he wanted to be there for his big party. Would you attack him for that? Our would your blanket moral condemnation make an exception for that at least, realising it wasn't his fault?


I wouldn't be with a guy who's into that, or has friends who are into that.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Trauma said:


> not getting what he needs from his partner.


Personally, some onanism is enough for me. I don't know why it isn't for other men.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Meak said:


> I wouldn't be with a guy who's into that, or has friends who are into that.


How would you know? And I think the selection for you would be somewhat thin with standards like that.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> Sex is supposed to be sacred? Since when? Sure some people may view it as sacred, but I do believe most people have sex simply because they feel the urge to do it, and it feels good.
> 
> Is sex between animals sacred? How are humans different?


Wait...are you shittin' me? You don't know the difference between animals and humans?
........


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Meak said:


> Wait...are you shittin' me? You don't know the difference between animals and humans?
> ........


We're badass motherfuckers with huge brains and an appetite for destruction?


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

Trauma said:


> How would you know? And I think the selection for you would be somewhat thin with standards like that.


 
Im with Meak on this one.
So what if it thins out our dating pool Trauma?
its about quality, not quantity. I personally would not be interested in a guy who was into it or had moronic freinds who were into it, and if we're talking peer pressure, I want a man, not an easilly influenced boy.. so sorry for having some standards, but oh well,.. im just not dumb enough to settle for the so called norm.
G. x


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

Trauma said:


> How would you know? And I think the selection for you would be somewhat thin with standards like that.


LOL. You really think so? I'm with someone who isn't like that, and if his friends are into that bs, I know for a fact he won't fall for it.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Goodewitch said:


> Im with Meak on this one.
> So what if it thins out our dating pool Trauma?
> its about quality, not quantity. I personally would not be interested in a guy who was into it or had moronic freinds who were into it, and if we're talking peer pressure, I want a man, not an easilly influenced boy.. so sorry for having some standards, but oh well,.. im just not dumb enough to settle for the so called norm.
> G. x


Quality is important, but I was just thinking about all the times I've heard women say "Try find a good man!" One has to wonder if it has to do with their standards.

And I have to agree with being resistant to peer pressure I think I have been all my life (being the introvert I am, it's not hard to resist it), both my brothers not so much and I give them shit for it a lot.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Meak said:


> I wouldn't be with a guy who's into that, or has friends who are into that.


So not only him, but his entire social circle has to not only not go to strip clubs (which is maybe possible and to an extent I understand that, though not the depths of your condemnation) but go completely against all tradition re a party that traditionally only happens once?
......wow

goodluck

I mean, I have extremely high standards in a lot of ways but I wouldn;t go so far as to judge people by their friends.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

lirulin said:


> So not only him, but his entire social circle has to not only not go to strip clubs (which is maybe possible and to an extent I understand that, though not the depths of your condemnation) but go completely against all tradition re a party that traditionally only happens once?
> ......wow
> 
> goodluck
> ...


Yes, and remember..there are exceptions. Not everyone is stupid enough to fall for this tradition and believe that the popular idea is what is right.


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

Meak said:


> Wait...are you shittin' me? You don't know the difference between animals and humans?
> ........


Sure I know the what makes human beings distinct from other animals, just like i know what makes lions distinct from other animals, but I don't really see what sets us apart from animals overall if that's what you're implying...


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't care if it's his best friends bachelor party. Take your pick, your friend or me. bye.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

amanda32 said:


> I don't care if it's his best friends bachelor party. Take your pick, your friend or me. bye.


Bro's before Ho's applies here. (nothing personal).


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

Trauma said:


> Bro's before Ho's applies here. (nothing personal).


Yeah, if your a teenager.

Also, I wouldn't be with a guy who thought of me as his, "ho".


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## Goodewitch (Mar 4, 2010)

Trauma said:


> Quality is important, but I was just thinking about all the times I've heard women say "Try find a good man!" One has to wonder if it has to do with their standards.
> 
> And I have to agree with being resistant to peer pressure I think I have been all my life (being the introvert I am, it's not hard to resist it), both my brothers not so much and I give them shit for it a lot.


 
part of my views on this trauma, probably comes from my age.
right now, im looking at living out the last part of my lifetime on this earth, maybe the next 30 odd years or so. I have neither the time, nor the patience to put up with any trifling BS from a man in a relationship now. I just want to settle, to find comfort, affection, some security, some real genuine love and companionship, and a man who's still acting like a kid, staring at women boobies and paying to do that, is sooo not what I consider a mature partner for me right now, Im too old and too bloody wise to put up with that irritating, self aggrandising selfish crap from anyone now.
This is my personal feeling of course, but I do think it translates to what women consider a good man. if what he does hurts you, belittles you, makes you feel like shit, makes you feel unloved, disrespected, or unworthy, then he's NOT a good man, is he?
g. x


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> Our way of communication, while being complex, isn't necassarily something that has surpassed other animals ability to communicate. For example both dolphins and blue whales have very complex ways of communication which we have only brushed on the surface in terms of exploring it.
> 
> Our standing up on two feet feat is far from special in regards to the animal zoo.
> 
> ...



Don't think I've ever seen a dolphin make a logical decision between letting their boyfriend/husband go to a strip club or not :tongue:


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Meak said:


> You believe I'm focusing more on the male...yet the thread name indicates it's about what women would think of their boyfriends who go to strip clubs, therefor, If you want to blame someone for being sexist, blame the thread starter, I'm merely responding.


Nah not buying it, you can't offload you objectionable opinions to the OP, take responsibility if you feel so strongly.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Meak said:


> You believe I'm focusing more on the male...yet the thread name indicates it's about what women would think of their boyfriends who go to strip clubs, therefor, If you want to blame someone for being sexist, blame the thread starter, I'm merely responding.


No, I believe your responses to the topic are sexist. The topic is not inherantly sexist. It's just a genuine question. It's not about the focus. It's about blanket condemnation, derogatory terms, stereotyping...sexism. Not "focussing on the male."


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

Mm, I do believe some of you should possibly take a step back from your irrational state and understand that I am not trying to force my opinions on you, nor am I trying to bash yours. I'm simply responding, and not blaming anyone for their perspective.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

lirulin said:


> No, I believe your responses to the topic are sexist. The topic is not inherantly sexist. It's just a genuine question. It's not about the focus. It's about blanket condemnation, derogatory terms, stereotyping...sexism. Not "focussing on the male."


Because I believe the shallow masses who visit strip clubs are apes? Is that what you're implying? xD


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Maybe, but _I'm_ blaming _you_ for your _sexist_ perspective where you cross that line. Strong values are all very well but there are times you go too far.


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

Meak said:


> Don't think I've ever seen a dolphin make a logical decision between letting their boyfriend/husband go to a strip club or not :tongue:


That's great. You ask me to elaborate something to you, I do. And instead of either pointing out my flaws, or acknowledging what I have shown, you brush it off like that...


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> That's great. You ask me to elaborate something to you, I do. And instead of either pointing out my flaws, or acknowledging what I have shown, you brush it off like that...


Oh, no..no I wasn't brushing it off I was making a joke, but a good point at the same time.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> That's great. You ask me to elaborate something to you, I do. And instead of either pointing out my flaws, or acknowledging what I have shown, you brush it off like that...


It's called misdirection. And I still think my answer to the humans V animals was best.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Meak said:


> Because I believe the shallow masses who visit strip clubs are apes? Is that what you're implying? xD


No it's what I am_ saying._ I'm not implying, I'm being direct. You _calling _them apes and other things, all of them, no matter their reasons; you are using sexist slurs that tie in directly to a lot of basic sexist stereotypes. You are also implying lot of things about men that are fundamentally untrue. It is fully possible to express your distaste for these places and what goes on there without these foolish, sexist generalisations and epithets. To use them just makes you sound, shrill, judgemental, and irrational. There are plenty of rational and moral reasons to dislike them. No need to use the sexist ones. You weaken your case. I have plenty of sympathy for those who dislike these places, believe me. I dislike them myself, as I am forced to keep repeating. I just don't see it as completely black and white. And I despise witchhunts.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Maybe, but _I'm_ blaming _you_ for your _sexist_ perspective where you cross that line. Strong values are all very well but there are times you go too far.


You know...the point I was trying to make was I'm not sexist, that the reason I am focusing more on my perspective of the males who do this is because of the thread title. 

Also, because most men are rarely dismembered in media ads, and women are more so. 
I can consider women apes who go to strip clubs as well, they are sub-human imo. 

See, I'm not so sexist, you just didn't give me a chance.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

This is getting dangerously close to a thread derail. Basically it appears that someone stated a personal preference, and a few people have decided to just nitpick. I don't actually even see anything worth debating in these last couple of posts, and its looking rather absurd. 

A person said that she wouldn't prefer to have a boyfriend with friends who like to go to strip clubs. Now can anyone actually pull some sort of way of invalidating something like that out of their butt? No. Its a personal preference. It looks like a few of you are bored, and looking for a pissing contest. 

To maintain the integrity of the thread, please wrap it up soon. No one wants to read this many pages of whats turning into one-line posts of bickering. 

If you want to start a new thread on how much humans have in common with other animals, thats actually a great idea. I would be very curious about everyone's ideas on that.


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

Meak said:


> Oh, no..no I wasn't brushing it off I was making a joke, but a good point at the same time.


It was anything but a good point. It make as much sense as saying you haven't see oysters make flower constellations on their own, thus humans must be special. e.g. it's a horrible point.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

DaEvil1 said:


> It was anything but a good point. It make as much sense as saying you haven't see oysters make flower constellations on their own, thus humans must be special. e.g. it's a horrible point.


Can an oyster get married and go to a strip club because of tradition?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

Meak said:


> You know...the point I was trying to make was I'm not sexist, that the reason I am focusing more on my perspective of the males who do this is because of the thread title.
> 
> Also, because most men are rarely dismembered in media ads, and women are more so.
> I can consider women apes who go to strip clubs as well, they are sub-human imo.
> ...


These are mostly valid concerns. My problem is with the way you are expressing them. Slurs and epithets and blanket condemnations. Like "Sub-human" for instance. We both share a dislike of the places, though to a different degree and some difference in reasons, but your attitude I find disturbing, somewhat sexist, and is royally pissing me off. I think we should just wrap it up.


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## DaEvil1 (May 6, 2010)

Meak said:


> Can an oyster get married and go to a strip club because of tradition?



Sigh...

Yes, humans have social traditions which stem from social behaviour through times. Animals who lives in flocks (and have done so for a while), also exhibit such feats. No they don't have strip clubs (wtf), but that doesn't set humans apart from animals.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Promethea, killer of threads and reminderer of bedtime... it's 3:15am here. I look forward to inbox spam from this thread tomoz lol.


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

With the vitriol in this thread, one might think we were discussing abortion...


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Nitou said:


> With the vitriol in this thread, one might think we were discussing abortion...


There must be an Internet rule for abortion - "Derail threads instantly or cause a flame war by mentioning one simply word - abortion".


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## Nitou (Feb 3, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> There must be an Internet rule for abortion - "Derail threads instantly or cause a flame war by mentioning one simply word - abortion".


LOL. Not my intent-just making an observation.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I don't think that's human nature. There are lots of people who do care, regardless of detachment from the individuals involved or this discussion never would have gone on for as long as it has. You can see it in all those posts you disagree with. People choose to ignore what's going on elsewhere because they don't care, sure...but they also choose to ignore because they'd rather not look that deeply within themselves. It's easier to say 'what are they to me?' than to accept that we're in no better position than them.


Ever been to a funeral for a family member and cried or felt strongly? If yes have you also fell just as bad when seeing a funeral procession for someone you don't know in the street? I know I have not, barely do a double take.

Ever broken down over the thought of starving Africans? or just wanted the adds to finish so you could get back to your show. We can empathize with these issues and situations but without connection we can't sympathize, we would not be able to function if every shitty situation hit us deeply.



Meak said:


> I believe you are speaking for everyone when everyone doesn't feel the same
> I do preach this a lot, and I can't stress it enough that people experience emotions differently.
> 
> I naturally care deeply without a connection because I have a huge heart. I'm not saying other people have smaller hearts though. I honestly am bothered by strippers because of the ideas that are shoved down their throats (Among other people) Male and Female. I feel sorry for them but am also angered at the same time.


I do hate when people use inclusive terms also and thought exactly that while typing but I left it that way as I have never met anyone who really felt strongly about people in a bad situation they had no connection too, they may be a little more vocal than others but they don't connect fully. You may have strong feelings about the issue but you don't have strong feelings for the individual women you don't even know. I've seen footage of terrible things in the news and on the net and have felt strongly about the issues, but not the individuals involved, If it was someone I knew and cared about it would be totally different.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I think this raises an important issue that hasn't been discussed regarding how people view dancers. A person wants to go to a strip club with the reasoning that it's harmless entertainment. Does they really believe that it's all that harmless? How would they feel about their mother, aunt or sister being a stripper? Better yet, their daughter or significant other? It's supposed to be harmless, but when it hits close to home, it's been my own experience that most people say "OH HELL NO!" Of course not all people would reject the idea but it seems to me that most do...and if that's the case, what are they saying about themselves or women if they choose to go anyway?


It's also because it's sex and people get squeamish at the thought of someone having sex with, having sexual thoughts about, or seeing the sexual organs of a female relative.

That, and plenty of hypocrites _don't g_o to strip clubs, harmless entertainment isn't the only reason, is a bit of an oversimplification probably, and those who do believe it, some might actually really believe it for a real rationale they are not hypocritical about. Sounds like a straw man to me.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

Trauma said:


> Ever been to a funeral for a family member and cried or felt strongly? If yes have you also fell just as bad when seeing a funeral procession for someone you don't know in the street? I know I have not, barely do a double take.
> 
> Ever broken down over the thought of starving Africans? or just wanted the adds to finish so you could get back to your show. We can empathize with these issues and situations but without connection we can't sympathize, we would not be able to function if every shitty situation hit us deeply.



Darling, I avoid watching the news because my heart gets so torn up on all the sob stories I hear. You're projecting, plain and simple. I don't expect you to be like me...we're obviously very different.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lirulin said:


> It's also because it's sex and people get squeamish at the thought of someone having sex with, having sexual thoughts about, or seeing the sexual organs of a female relative.
> 
> That, and plenty of hypocrites _don't g_o to strip clubs, harmless entertainment isn't the only reason, is a bit of an oversimplification probably, and those who do believe it, some might actually really believe it for a real rationale they are not hypocritical about. Sounds like a straw man to me.



I don't usually hear grown men saying "that's just gross"...more like "I'm not going to let those men treat her like that". You may have a point but I think matured adults are for the most part, able to reason past the 12 year old mentality of "eeeeew".


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I don't usually hear grown men saying "that's just gross"...more like "I'm not going to let those men treat her like that". You may have a point but I think matured adults are for the most part, able to reason past the 12 year old mentality of "eeeeew".


Do you really?

Myself, I find that the visceral reaction is still there. It's not exactly "eeew, cooties" either, though thanks for that mischaracterisation. I don't think anyone of any age, without a very particular upbringing, is fully comfortable hearing all the details of their parents' or sisters' sexlife or seeing too much of it. It's family. You don't want to think of them in that context. Some families are more open than others, but there is still a particular sort of barrier there.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lirulin said:


> Do you really?
> 
> Myself, I find that the visceral reaction is still there. It's not exactly "eeew, cooties" either, though thanks for that mischaracterisation. I don't think anyone of any age, without a very particular upbringing, is fully comfortable hearing all the details of their parents' or sisters' sexlife or seeing too much of it. It's family. You don't want to think of them in that context. Some families are more open than others, but there is still a particular sort of barrier there.



I do, really. I'm not denying that the thought is there...I just think there's a lot more to it than that. My comments weren't meant to offend you, I didn't realize you were speaking for yourself as well. No need to take it personally.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Do you really?
> 
> Myself, I find that the visceral reaction is still there. It's not exactly "eeew, cooties" either, though thanks for that mischaracterisation. I don't think anyone of any age, without a very particular upbringing, is fully comfortable hearing all the details of their parents' or sisters' sexlife or seeing too much of it. It's family. You don't want to think of them in that context. Some families are more open than others, but there is still a particular sort of barrier there.


to be honest, I wouldn't be weirded out by that in the slightest. it doesn't matter to me that they are my family, they are still humans and sex is just an action. any feelings i "should" feel about that are simply implied by society and frankly I try to stay away from society influences as much as possible.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> Darling, I avoid watching the news because my heart gets so torn up on all the sob stories I hear. You're projecting, plain and simple. I don't expect you to be like me...we're obviously very different.


Maybe we are that different, I've never met anyone who does this hence my point of view, but I'm not projecting, I'm aware that I do it and am fine with it.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I do, really. I'm not denying that the thought is there...I just think there's a lot more to it than that.


I did say also, not that it was everything. And in some people it's a very strong force. 

And your other points: there are some people who are hypocrites, and some of them go to strip clubs. Yes. ok. I hardly think that hypocracy accounts for all of them though. It basically seems like nitpicking. "I know some guys, and they go but wouldn't let their sisters - so they're hypocrites!" well, sure, and we could analyse their motivations, and I could bring up some jerk with a madonna/whore complex who refuses to go, but where is this getting us? So your issue - where does it relate to everything else then? Are you proposing a tactic to convince people, blaming some hypocrites, what?


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> to be honest, I wouldn't be weirded out by that in the slightest. it doesn't matter to me that they are my family, they are still humans and sex is just an action. any feelings i "should" feel about that are simply implied by society and frankly I try to stay away from society influences as much as possible.


Where did 'should' come from? I always associated with the same reasons you're not usually sexually attracted to your family, with social forces more just as emphasis. (And in my house, _boy_ was there emphasis. Lunatics.)

I did say there could be exceptions (though I only mentioned upbringing as a force more for space than anything) but I do think it is generally a pretty damn common thing, though it may manifest differently, especially in different cultures. But....good for you?


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> I don't usually hear grown men saying "that's just gross"...more like "I'm not going to let those men treat her like that". You may have a point but I think matured adults are for the most part, able to reason past the 12 year old mentality of "eeeeew".



I think the only guy I've ever heard say "Eww that's gross" is a gay guy I knew, but he was just kidding around, then said "yeah, they're groady, I don't go to those stank ass bars" lol.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

I wouldn't want to see any of my family naked or stripping, I think I would be rather defensive if any or my cousins were strippers and would want it to stop.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lirulin said:


> I did say also, not that it was everything. And in some people it's a very strong force.
> 
> And your other points: there are some people who are hypocrites, and some of them go to strip clubs. Yes. ok. I hardly think that hypocracy accounts for all of them though. It basically seems like nitpicking. "I know some guys, and they go but wouldn't let their sisters - so they're hypocrites!" well, sure, and we could analyse their motivations, and *I could bring up some jerk with a madonna/whore complex who refuses to go, but is this getting us?* So your issue - where does it relate to everything else then? Are you proposing a tactic to convince people, blaming some hypocrites, what?


You really need to drop that part in bold. You see it's not getting us anywhere but you bring it up _again_. Please stop...it's not helping anything.

As far as hypocrisy goes, I don't place much emphasis on that past understanding ourselves well enough to maintain balance within ourselves. I'm not trying to 'blame' anyone here. Convincing people of what? That they should see things my way? Not really. Asking them to look within and give what they feel value? Absolutely.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Where did 'should' come from?


From society


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> You really need to drop that part in bold. You see it's not getting us anywhere but you bring it up _again_. Please stop...it's not helping anything.
> 
> As far as hypocrisy goes, I don't place much emphasis on that past understanding ourselves well enough to maintain balance within ourselves. I'm not trying to 'blame' anyone here. Convincing people of what? That they should see things my way? Not really. Asking them to look within and give what they feel value? Absolutely.


Again? I don't recall mentioning that before. Ever actually.  It's an abstract counterexample to your anecdote that, on first glance, seemed almost equally useless, only_ I_ asked you what the point was and assumed you had one.

It sounded at first like you were just looking for another label - ie hypocrite - to pin on guys who go to these clubs, so I was trying to get you to flesh out your position and see your actual point rather than making an accusation based just on that impression, since that would be a little unfair, leaping to conclusions like that. And I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt since I have no reason not to. Being blunt, I just asked what your point was. Basically you had what amounted to anecdotal evidence and I wanted to know how you fit it into the big picture, and the actual conclusions you were drawing from it. I wasn't sure if it was - this is a little thing to add to the sum total of points - or if there was another point in there beyond "some people occasionally are hypocrites" and "they think there is no harm" (oversimplified, but basically true) that we were supposed to get. And if there was, I wanted to know what it was. Because hey, maybe it could even be interesting. Then it sounded for a bit like you were arguing for the merits of appealing to emotion. So I don't know what exactly you're saying - I asked for clarity. Since its a discussion and not a meditation session, looking within...um...what. If you'd rather assume hostility (no idea why) then have a sensible discussion then apologies for troubling you; I won't respond to your posts anymore. 

Still confused where you got all that from.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> From society


Do you think it is 100% society then? I imagine that's a large part, but I wouldn't be surprised if not thinking about relatives in a sexual way kinda thing had certain interrelationships of influence with it - I read somewhere about a relation with attraction and dissimilarity of DNA. I don't know enough about it to make any real conclusions, but if there were certain more basic forces/drives that played into it I would not be surprised.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lirulin said:


> Again? I don't recall mentioning that before. Ever actually.  It's an abstract counterexample.
> 
> Well, it sounded at first like you were just looking for another label - ie hypocrite - to pin on guys who go to these clubs, so I was trying to get you to flesh out your position and see your actual point rather than making an accusation based just on that impression, since that would be a little unfair, leaping to conclusions like that. And I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt since I have no reason not to. Being blunt, I just asked what your point was. Basically you had what amounted to anecdotal evidence and I wanted to know how you fit it into the big picture, and the actual conclusions you were drawing from it. I wasn't sure if it was - this is a little thing to add to the sum total of points - or if there was another point in there beyond "some people occasionally are hypocrites" and "they think there is no harm" (oversimplified, but basically true) that we were supposed to get. And if there was, I wanted to know what it was. Since it's and discussion and not a meditation session, so looking within...um...what.* If you'd rather assume hostility (no idea why) then have a sensible discussion then apologies for troubling you; I won't respond to your posts anymore.
> *
> Still confused where you got all that from.


Where are you getting that bolded part from? 

As for anecdotal evidence, I've not relayed any stories or personal experiences in my posts. The rest just made my head hurt with apparant circles you just ran around me. Maybe I'll make more sense of it in the morning.


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## Macrosapien (Apr 4, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Again? I don't recall mentioning that before. Ever actually.  It's an abstract counterexample to your anecdote that, on first glance, seemed almost equally useless, only_ I_ asked you what the point was and assumed you had one.
> 
> It sounded at first like you were just looking for another label - ie hypocrite - to pin on guys who go to these clubs, so I was trying to get you to flesh out your position and see your actual point rather than making an accusation based just on that impression, since that would be a little unfair, leaping to conclusions like that. And I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt since I have no reason not to. Being blunt, I just asked what your point was. Basically you had what amounted to anecdotal evidence and I wanted to know how you fit it into the big picture, and the actual conclusions you were drawing from it. I wasn't sure if it was - this is a little thing to add to the sum total of points - or if there was another point in there beyond "some people occasionally are hypocrites" and "they think there is no harm" (oversimplified, but basically true) that we were supposed to get. And if there was, I wanted to know what it was. Because hey, maybe it could even be interesting. Then it sounded for a bit like you were arguing for the merits of appealing to emotion. So I don't know what exactly you're saying - I asked for clarity. Since its a discussion and not a meditation session, looking within...um...what. If you'd rather assume hostility (no idea why) then have a sensible discussion then apologies for troubling you; I won't respond to your posts anymore.
> 
> Still confused where you got all that from.


You are such a feisty intellectual. You had me at our first debate :blushed:


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> Where are you getting that bolded part from?
> 
> As for anecdotal evidence, I've not relayed any stories or personal experiences in my posts. The rest just made my head hurt with apparant circles you just ran around me. Maybe I'll make more sense of it in the morning.



I didn't see you say that bold part either  *is confused*


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Sometimes I get very frustrated when people still try to argue points that have -already- been clarified in earlier posts. Read up.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> Where are you getting that bolded part from?
> 
> As for anecdotal evidence, I've not relayed any stories or personal experiences in my posts. The rest just made my head hurt with apparant circles you just ran around me. Maybe I'll make more sense of it in the morning.


I thought you mentioned this about guys you knew saying this, which makes it, at the level of evidence, basically anecdotal...I mean, all it proves is some guys do it, nothing about strip clubs or the guys who frequent them in general unless there is something you did not explain... In a more general sense, though, I think in patterns, so I'm just trying to see how a few guys' reactions fit into everything and how/why they are relevant. Maybe I just expected more of a context because that's how I think and process things and I am used to it. And without that it's still a does..not..compute sort of thing. It's like...ok, piece of data.....and? I mean they are valuable and all, it's just...I though there was something else. Or the context you are using is not one that comes naturally to me so I don't see it? I'm just having trouble putting it together and it seemed at first glance to be a "this is another reason they suck" post, but you implied, I think, that it meant more than that, so I went with that assumption and asked what. I just didn't and don't make the connection as to what else through mind-reading so I needed your help to explain it.

As for hostility - where did you get my bringing up madonna/whore dude "again" from? You seemed to be implying I had done this before (though I did not) apparently repeatedly in an intent to derail the discussion or something. I was very confused by this accusation and had no idea what you were talking about. It seemed hostile, which doesn't seem an unreasonable conclusion. That's all.

Goodnight.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Do you think it is 100% society then? I imagine that's a large part, but I wouldn't be surprised if not thinking about relatives in a sexual way kinda thing had certain interrelationships of influence with it - I read somewhere about a relation with attraction and dissimilarity of DNA. I don't know enough about it to make any real conclusions, but if there were certain more basic forces/drives that played into it I would not be surprised.


my society that i live in at least


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> my society that i live in at least


The force is there in mine too. I'm just not convinced that there isn't more to it. Even if only a little.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Do you think it is 100% society then? I imagine that's a large part, but I wouldn't be surprised if not thinking about relatives in a sexual way kinda thing had certain interrelationships of influence with it - I read somewhere about a relation with attraction and dissimilarity of DNA. I don't know enough about it to make any real conclusions, but if there were certain more basic forces/drives that played into it I would not be surprised.


I remember a watching a doco some time ago that had 4 women sleep in a t-shirt overnight then they put the shirt in a closed jar, then had 4 men smell the jars, they found that the men were most attracted to the smell of the women who were the most different from them and would produce the strongest immune system in their offspring.

If that's what your getting at.


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## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

I wouldn't be offended at all, I'd go with him and get some lap dances myself.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

bionic said:


> I wouldn't be offended at all, I'd go with him and get some lap dances myself.


Hawt :crazy:


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## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

Trauma said:


> Hawt :crazy:


I'm just being honest.

I don't understand how all the other women are saying shit like "Am I not enough for him??", "Thats so repulsive", etc. Obviously you do not trust your man enough or you have some severe insecurity issues. I would suggest you all get therapy for that. Stripping isn't unmoral. There is a line for taking off your clothes for money and then having sex for money. If all your man is doing is watching a chick get naked, dancing in front of him, and NOT touching her at all.. then you obviously got a security problem. I'd be right there with him too, tempted to touch of course, but finding pleasure from the tease. If he isn't touching, then I have nothing to be worrying about. If you don't cage a man, he always comes back. I know he's looking at all the eyecandy around him during the day but at night... I'm the one his cock is inside. Not anyone elses.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

bionic said:


> I'm just being honest.
> 
> I don't understand how all the other women are saying shit like "Am I not enough for him??", "Thats so repulsive", etc. Obviously you do not trust your man enough or you have some severe insecurity issues. I would suggest you all get therapy for that. Stripping isn't unmoral. There is a line for taking off your clothes for money and then having sex for money. If all your man is doing is watching a chick get naked, dancing in front of him, and NOT touching her at all.. then you obviously got a security problem. I'd be right there with him too, tempted to touch of course, but finding pleasure from the tease. If he isn't touching, then I have nothing to be worrying about. If you don't cage a man, he always comes back. I know he's looking at all the eyecandy around him during the day but at night... I'm the one his cock is inside. Not anyone elses.


Oh I know you were serious, I was too, I think it would be a turn on that would probably lead to a great time later that night:laughing:.

I was going to make a similar point about the bachelor parties, a group of guys may reminisce about such a night months/years later and have a laugh with each other, it comes back to that bonding experience point I made, but the fact is the nights events are only memories and maybe photos but they would only have to go home to see who they really care about again.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

I think the culture behind a strip club is immoral. but the act of taking your clothes off is not. I agree that women get too offended by just the concept. Men do not lump their SO and a random naked woman into the same category in their mind at ALL.


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## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

Trauma said:


> Oh I know you were serious, I was too, I think it would be a turn on that would probably lead to a great time later that night:laughing:.
> 
> I was going to make a similar point about the bachelor parties, a group of guys may reminisce about such a night months/years later and have a laugh with each other, it comes back to that bonding experience point I made, but the fact is the nights events are only memories and maybe photos but they would only have to go home to see who they really care about again.


Oh it totally would. A very hot and steamy one indeed. I dated a man who was a stripper and I got turned on while I watched him at work. There was something about the fact that all these women were enjoying him dance but at the end of the day, he came home to only me. It would also be a bad thing though because some of the women were obviously jealous of me and started catfights. Petty shit.




OmarFW said:


> I think the culture behind a strip club is immoral. but the act of taking your clothes off is not. I agree that women get too offended by just the concept. Men do not lump their SO and a random naked woman into the same category in their mind at ALL.


How can taking off your clothes not be immoral but the rest of the culture is? That doesn't make sense to me. One of my good friends is a stripper and is the most loyal, intelligent, mannered, and trustworthy people I know. Just because she has dabbled in some bad shit doesn't make her a bad person. Being around all the crap she is around tempts her but at the end of the day, she's comes home and plays WOW instead of getting drunk or fucking a man for money outside of work.

I also agree that men do not put their SO and random women into one. If they did, they would be whores and fuck whoever they pleased.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

bionic said:


> How can taking off your clothes not be immoral but the rest of the culture is? That doesn't make sense to me. One of my good friends is a stripper and is the most loyal, intelligent, mannered, and trustworthy people I know. Just because she has dabbled in some bad shit doesn't make her a bad person. Being around all the crap she is around tempts her but at the end of the day, she's comes home and plays WOW instead of getting drunk or fucking a man for money outside of work.
> 
> I also agree that men do not put their SO and random women into one. If they did, they would be whores and fuck whoever they pleased.


well the stereotypical culture at least. and not even the culture of the dancers, but the culture of the men who go there (the non respectable ones at least). without the aspect of perversion and objectification they bring into the whole "strip club" stereotype, it would just be women taking their clothes off.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

bionic said:


> How can taking off your clothes not be immoral but the rest of the culture is? That doesn't make sense to me. One of my good friends is a stripper and is the most loyal, intelligent, mannered, and trustworthy people I know. Just because she has dabbled in some bad shit doesn't make her a bad person. Being around all the crap she is around tempts her but at the end of the day, she's comes home and plays WOW instead of getting drunk or fucking a man for money outside of work.


Cool to hear an account like this, as I've said I have wondered if the strippers were happy and why they do what they do but I never looked down upon them... um well I did, but you know what I mean! I was more in awe at how comfortable and open they are to do what they do, I could never do such a thing, far too shy.


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## screamofconscious (Oct 15, 2009)

lirulin said:


> I thought you mentioned this about guys you knew saying this, which makes it, at the level of evidence, basically anecdotal...I mean, all it proves is some guys do it, nothing about strip clubs or the guys who frequent them in general unless there is something you did not explain... In a more general sense, though, I think in patterns, so I'm just trying to see how a few guys' reactions fit into everything and how/why they are relevant. Maybe I just expected more of a context because that's how I think and process things and I am used to it. And without that it's still a does..not..compute sort of thing. It's like...ok, piece of data.....and? I mean they are valuable and all, it's just...I though there was something else. Or the context you are using is not one that comes naturally to me so I don't see it? I'm just having trouble putting it together and it seemed at first glance to be a "this is another reason they suck" post, but you implied, I think, that it meant more than that, so I went with that assumption and asked what. I just didn't and don't make the connection as to what else through mind-reading so I needed your help to explain it.


I think perhaps you were trying to fit my comments into the context of what had already been said...so issues with communication? I can agree with that.

My basic position is to live and let live. People will do what they want to do and they will rationalize their decisions, however good or bad they may be, in any way that they can make work for them. As individuals, it's important to create and examine our values, behaviors and beliefs in order to grow. This can't be forced on others, nor should it be. It's something the individual must desire or no amount of appeal will have any positive effect. 

As for my previous comments, my point was that if a person finds the idea of some one they love being a stripper as offensive then surely they also see the profession as damaging in some form. They may be correct about that but there is a projection in such an idea as well. In participating in that industry, they are damaging themselves. Not because _I _believe that there is something wrong with it, but because _they _believe it.

Now you can argue that some people simply feel repulsed by the association of family members with nudity and sex but if that's really the case...if that's _all_ that is bothering a person about the idea, then they'll be uncomfortable with any idea that can be associated with nudity and sex in reference to their family member. There goes being okay with pregnancy announcements even under the best of circumstances. I simply can't see how a persons issues with participating in the sex industry can be that simple. Whether or not I can understand that is besides the point though, really. As I said, people will make their decisions, good or bad and rationalize them in any way they can make it work for them.




lirulin said:


> As for hostility - where did you get my bringing up madonna/whore dude "again" from? You seemed to be implying I had done this before (though I did not) apparently repeatedly in an intent to derail the discussion or something. I was very confused by this accusation and had no idea what you were talking about. It seemed hostile, which doesn't seem an unreasonable conclusion. That's all.
> 
> Goodnight.


It seemed to me that you were rehashing an argument with another member that you had previously been asked to stop arguing with. If I was incorrect in making this connection, then I apologize. Even without that connection however, I see the statement as rather uncalled for considering your use of the work jerk and the association of not agreeing to attend a strip club with having a madonna/whore complex. While that may be the case for some, as a general statement geared for that side of the issue, it is a gross mischaracterization at best.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

screamofconscious said:


> Cut for space purposes if that's ok? We've both been getting verbose and it's right above.


The main reason I put the madonna/whore thing was as a parallel to "they are just hypocrites" trying to point out that either is just as useless. I was talking to you, not to anyone else and it wasn't directly relevant to any disagreement I had before. Basically, either characterisation is anecdotal pointing fingers without context. And I saw no context so I asked. Now that you have explained (thanks) I see that you're more focussing on the "they see harm" point not as blame or a judgement on hypocracy, but rather on their awareness of the industry, and that the knowledge that it is harmful is not being as ignored all that much, but something that even these people admit in the right environment. I think it was a communication thing, yes.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

bionic said:


> I'm just being honest.
> 
> I don't understand how all the other women are saying shit like "Am I not enough for him??", "Thats so repulsive", etc. Obviously you do not trust your man enough or you have some severe insecurity issues. I would suggest you all get therapy for that. Stripping isn't unmoral. There is a line for taking off your clothes for money and then having sex for money. If all your man is doing is watching a chick get naked, dancing in front of him, and NOT touching her at all.. then you obviously got a security problem. I'd be right there with him too, tempted to touch of course, but finding pleasure from the tease. If he isn't touching, then I have nothing to be worrying about. If you don't cage a man, he always comes back. I know he's looking at all the eyecandy around him during the day but at night... I'm the one his cock is inside. Not anyone elses.


Or they have strong values about it that you happen not to share. Calling people insecure isn't any better than them calling you desperate. I'm not a little appalled at the level of the vitriol too, but simply not liking these places has a lot more riding on it than insecurity.


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## Monica (May 18, 2010)

I would not be okay with my partner going to a strip club. I can't think of one positive thing about it.


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## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

lirulin said:


> Or they have strong values about it that you happen not to share. Calling people insecure isn't any better than them calling you desperate. I'm not a little appalled at the level of the vitriol too, but simply not liking these places has a lot more riding on it than insecurity.


And you calling me out on my opinion doesn't make you correct nor appear considerate of other's discretions.

But of course it doesn't have a lot more riding on it than insecurity! There are of course other negativities like: lack of trust in SO, low self-esteem (please remember that SELF is the important term here children!!), perhaps abandoment issues, poor childhood, strict traditional childhood, can be contributing factors.

Do me a favor and don't step on my subjectives. I'm not here to prove my arguement, I'm stating it so others can be aware. If you are offended by my approach, good! Also, I was never called desperate. So that has no relation to your point.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

bionic said:


> And you calling me out on my opinion doesn't make you correct nor appear considerate of other's discretions.
> 
> But of course it doesn't have a lot more riding on it than insecurity! There are of course other negativities like: lack of trust in SO, low self-esteem (please remember that SELF is the important term here children!!), perhaps abandoment issues, poor childhood, strict traditional childhood, can be contributing factors.
> 
> Do me a favor and don't step on my subjectives. I'm not here to prove my arguement, I'm stating it so others can be aware. If you are offended by my approach, good! Also, I was never called desperate. So that has no relation to your point.


It's too bad your opinion apparently amounts to little more than intolerance and judgement of anyone who thinks differently. Do what you like, but assuming that the _only_ explanation for disagreeing with you must be pathological?? I don't see how subjectivity is a defense for your intolerance or theirs, but yeah...have fun with that. As you said, you don't give a fuck.


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## bionic (Mar 29, 2010)

lirulin said:


> It's too bad your opinion apparently amounts to little more than intolerance and judgement of anyone who thinks differently. Do what you like, but assuming that the _only_ explanation for disagreeing with you must be pathological?? I don't see how subjectivity is a defense for your intolerance or theirs, but yeah...have fun with that. As you said, you don't give a fuck.


Now you're just assuming that I'm intolerant and judgemental of others when its quite the opposite. I can UNDERSTAND if someone is repulsed or doesn't want their SO at a strip club. But I do not have to ACCEPT that decision AS MY OWN. Also, pathological is an incorrect term to use. Psychological is a much better fit for your verbatim. Take into context that I was also being facetious and condescending. And of course you wouldn't understand that subjectivity can be a defense. Opinions are subjective, Facts are objective. You're supposedly an INTJ after all, we're very firm on objectivity. I never said I don't give a fuck.

This discussion is over.


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## lirulin (Apr 16, 2010)

bionic said:


> Now you're just assuming that I'm intolerant and judgemental of others when its quite the opposite. I can UNDERSTAND if someone is repulsed or doesn't want their SO at a strip club. But I do not have to ACCEPT that decision AS MY OWN. Also, pathological is an incorrect term to use. Psychological is a much better fit for your verbatim. Take into context that I was also being facetious and condescending. And of course you wouldn't understand that subjectivity can be a defense. Opinions are subjective, Facts are objective. You're supposedly an INTJ after all, we're very firm on objectivity. I never said I don't give a fuck.
> 
> This discussion is over.


Calling them insecure etc. doesn't sound like understanding. Condescending, hell yes. And subjectivity is everything, fuck objectivity - none of it excuses attacking someone or dismissing their beliefs as a result of psychological issues.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> I've actually heard of women (I've not known anyone like this, but it's likely that I do) that are actually very anxious and pretty much terrified because they haven't been victims of abuse/rape/molestation/other sexual assault. That's just how messed up this world is.
> 
> A lot of this sexual abuse of women could be prevented if men were taught to call out other men who might be about to hurt woman in such a way. For example, if a man sees someone putting something into a woman's drink, he should at least tell the woman rather than put her in danger. Just like white people helping to prevent racism from other whites, and heterosexuals/cisgender people helping to prevent homophobia/biphobia/transphobia, men can use their male privilege to help prevent women being hurt by other men.
> 
> ...


Terrified because they have not been abused?? What because they think they are the odd one out? They wonder when their time will come? I don't get this. I would step in if I saw someone spiking a drink, that shit can be fatal I know a local girl was killed by that a while back. I think if I saw obvious abuse I would do something about it, but I have not. I don't see why preventing racism should be the responsibility of white men exclusivly, that's everyone's responsibility.

Edit: I read that article, crazy stuff.


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## Shanty (Jan 19, 2010)

As long as it wasn't a super-regular thing (3 times a week is sketchy), then no worries. 

As long as I felt secure and trusted him, I would encourage him to do whatever he wants ...if I trust the guy, I gotta trust him al the way. Love him for who he is.

When you get a point in a relationship where you're fighting the biological, hard-wired responses, it can only end up in a lot of secrets, lies, and resentment ...

A guy is a guy. They LOVE flesh. LOVE IT, and can't help it, no matter what any guy says to you.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Shanty said:


> A guy is a guy. They LOVE flesh. LOVE IT, and can't help it, no matter what any guy says to you.


Flesh? We're men, not cannibals:tongue:. Not to mention that many men, myself included, do not like going to strips clubs and would never go inside one in a million years.

Not all men have the high sex drive and obsession with all things sexual, and some women have high sex drives and are sex obsessed. I think it depends on how mature and in control of himself a man is - the more immature and out of control ones will be more stereotypical, whilst the more mature men won't be. Your statement could easily be turned around to be about women, and in place of "flesh" you could put "shoes" or "shopping", because I do think it's a generalisation and I don't think you could find anything that all three and a half billion men have in common with each other apart from their humanity (A Y chromosome is not present in transmen).


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Trauma said:


> Terrified because they have not been abused?? What because they think they are the odd one out? They wonder when their time will come?


Yeah, because they know that statistically they are likely to eventually become a victim in some way.



> I don't get this. I would step in if I saw someone spiking a drink, that shit can be fatal I know a local girl was killed by that a while back. I think if I saw obvious abuse I would do something about it, but I have not.


Of course, but how many men would just ignore the spiked drink or the attack?



> I don't see why preventing racism should be the responsibility of white men exclusivly, that's everyone's responsibility.


It shouldn't be just the responsibility of white people, but white people should do more to prevent white racists.


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## Shanty (Jan 19, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Flesh? We're men, not cannibals:tongue:. Not to mention that many men, myself included, do not like going to strips clubs and would never go inside one in a million years.


Hey now, you're taking it to a dark place Sky!! :wink: (you know what I meant about the flesh - and most men I've dated have been out of control and pawed at me 24/7)

You're mostly correct and not really generalizing ...



> Your statement could easily be turned around to be about women, and in place of "flesh" you could put "shoes" or "shopping"


Well, ya. Do you think strippers get all greased up for the fun of it? Sure, some may "love" what they do, but at the end of the day its *all about money* to those women. If the owner of a skin establishment called his dancers one morning and said, "sorry girls, you're not getting those tips anymore, I gotta take your wage down to $12.00 an hour", that he would have his staff ready for action? Maybe the nasty old housewife who he can't bring himself to put behind the bar? 

Any woman who gets used to making $2000 can't go back to scraps, that's for darn sure.


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## Korvyna (Dec 4, 2009)

If.... The strip club was in my area....It wouldn't bother me at all... Now if he went to the Hooters or a place called Show-Me's in this area I might be more bothered. :tongue: Our strip clubs have some pretty rough looking strippers...


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Shanty said:


> Hey now, you're taking it to a dark place Sky!! :wink: (you know what I meant about the flesh - and most men I've dated have been out of control and pawed at me 24/7)


Some men are quite highly sex-driven. It's partly instinct and partly social conditioning



> Well, ya. Do you think strippers get all greased up for the fun of it? Sure, some may "love" what they do, but at the end of the day its *all about money* to those women. If the owner of a skin establishment called his dancers one morning and said, "sorry girls, you're not getting those tips anymore, I gotta take your wage down to $12.00 an hour", that he would have his staff ready for action? Maybe the nasty old housewife who he can't bring himself to put behind the bar?
> 
> Any woman who gets used to making $2000 can't go back to scraps, that's for darn sure.


If it's a safe environment and the women are paid well, treated well and enjoy working there, there's no problem with it.


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## amanda32 (Jul 23, 2009)

I used to be really good friends with a guy who was extremely smart, very well-educated, well-traveled and completely in love with his girlfriend. 
However, he often hung out with this complete letch who openly went to whore houses and bragged about it. 
This smart guy, in love with his girlfriend got what we called in China a "da fei gi" (the big airplane) at the bath house. A euphamism for a hand job, of course.
He felt guilty about it afterwords and for a long time -- but he had still done it.
IMO, it's naive to say: "sure honey, go to these places where you can pay for a lapdance, to finger a stripper or any number of other things" and not think your man may succomb, no matter his devotion to you. Enough alcohol, enough times being exposed to such things makes them seem almost "normal".
Going to these places is like playing with fire. Eventually, somebody's going to get burned.

In the end though, I think it's every woman's choice what she will and won't allow in her relationship.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

amanda32 said:


> I used to be really good friends with a guy who was extremely smart, very well-educated, well-traveled and completely in love with his girlfriend.
> However, he often hung out with this complete letch who openly went to whore houses and bragged about it.
> This smart guy, in love with his girlfriend got what we called in China a "da fei gi" (the big airplane) at the bath house. A euphamism for a hand job, of course.
> He felt guilty about it afterwords and for a long time -- but he had still done it.
> ...



That makes me very sad to read, and very paranoid and why I hate even dating anyone even if the guy won't do this to me. 

Also makes me hate most of humanity (Especially men) because I don't agree with any of it. 
I wonder what the world has come to these days and I wonder if this will progress into something worse or remain the same, or become less. 

I hate strip clubs with a passion, and I think they should be blown the fuck up.  Just my mean ass opinion though. :bored:


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## Proteus (Mar 5, 2010)

Shanty said:


> A guy is a guy. They LOVE flesh. LOVE IT, and can't help it, no matter what any guy says to you.


Hasty generalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."


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## Shanty (Jan 19, 2010)

OMG as if people are taking this crap so seriously that you're looking up labels to identify and define 'just how much I shat the bed with my comment". Yer taking what I said and high-beaming in on one thing. Its cool though, go ahead. But, also, relax. I didn't mean anything negative (so sorry!) and don't feel like playing forum wars ... at any point, any time.

In addition to that, if you're a straight male who _doesn't_ love female flesh, check your pulse and make sure you're getting enough exercise. :crazy:

Even I love female flesh and I'm as hetero as they come. Its beautiful.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

Shanty said:


> OMG as if people are taking this crap so seriously that you're looking up labels to identify and define 'just how much I shat the bed with my comment". Yer taking what I said and high-beaming in on one thing. Its cool though, go ahead. But, also, relax. I didn't mean anything negative (so sorry!) and don't feel like playing forum wars ... at any point, any time.
> 
> In addition to that, if you're a straight male who _doesn't_ love female flesh, check your pulse and make sure you're getting enough exercise. :crazy:
> 
> Even I love female flesh and I'm as hetero as they come. Its beautiful.



Don't forget about the exceptions. There are men who only love the person they're with and no one else matters. Physical/Emotional.


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## Shanty (Jan 19, 2010)

Love is one thing ...and yes, I *totally, 110% agree* that there are MANY men who are pretty honest, faithful, and treat you like an actual person (unlike the "red-headed stepchild"). Love is separate from all other things ...and in my experience, it has been the men who are the most intelligent, educated, and well-brought up who are the most loyal. I don't meet those fellas very often ...maybe once or twice in one of my English classes? lol

No I kid ... in all honesty I saw what kind of man my stepfather was and many other males who have come and gone throughout the years. 

I would never reduce a dude to his libido, but then again, I've never been rejected by one of them.


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## Trauma (May 7, 2010)

Shanty said:


> OMG as if people are taking this crap so seriously that you're looking up labels to identify and define 'just how much I shat the bed with my comment". Yer taking what I said and high-beaming in on one thing. Its cool though, go ahead. But, also, relax. I didn't mean anything negative (so sorry!) and don't feel like playing forum wars ... at any point, any time.
> 
> In addition to that, if you're a straight male who _doesn't_ love female flesh, check your pulse and make sure you're getting enough exercise. :crazy:
> 
> Even I love female flesh and I'm as hetero as they come. Its beautiful.


Yea this thread has pretty much run it's course I think. Don't be sorry, I love flesh! But I do need to exercise more, luckily I have a supercharged metabolism!


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## Shanty (Jan 19, 2010)

I need to exercise more too ... I'm fairly lean but starting to feel flabby. I hear ya! We all need something, lol 

Thanks for not going for my jugular ...lol


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

Exercising is best for releasing endorphins, and pushing out pent up adrenaline especially if you have a sedimentary position through out most of the day. It is not about how 'flabby' 'toned' you perceive yourself as. 

Indeed, it has nothing to do with appearance. If you feel good for accomplishing even walking, your whole day could go extremely well.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

I don't get strip clubs. Porn is free. He will most certainly be informed about his irrational behavior.

Overall I would not mind. I have watched porn myself when I was in a relationship, and don't see how this is much different. Only thing I cannot rationalize about strip clubs is why pay big bucks to sit in a smoked-up filthy place where you cannot jerk off when in your home you can watch same for free and masturbate or have sex with your gf or wife while you are at it.

To me there is much more contained in a relationship than just sex and physical attraction. I see naked women (or men for what matter) dancing around poles and shaking various body parts as entertainment, not as competition in any romantic sense.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

vel said:


> I don't get strip clubs. Porn is free. He will most certainly be informed about his irrational behavior.
> 
> Overall I would not mind. I have watched porn myself when I was in a relationship, and don't see how this is much different. Only thing I cannot rationalize about strip clubs is why pay big bucks to sit in a smoked-up filthy place where you cannot jerk off when in your home you can watch same for free and masturbate or have sex with your gf or wife while you are at it.
> 
> To me there is much more contained in a relationship than just sex and physical attraction. I see naked women (or men for what matter) dancing around poles and shaking various body parts as entertainment, not as competition in any romantic sense.


Porn and strip clubs are similar but not exact.
Porn is purely visual, strip clubs are visual AND physical. 

I believe when a man watches porn, he is cheating emotionally, and put the physical aspect in it, and it's cheating physically as well. The stripper grinds on his lap...he gets a hard on. Can't anyone understand that this is actually cheating? You're pleasing yourself with another woman. Hello?


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## walkawaysun09 (Mar 13, 2010)

Meak said:


> Porn and strip clubs are similar but not exact.
> Porn is purely visual, strip clubs are visual AND physical.
> 
> I believe when a man watches porn, he is cheating emotionally, and put the physical aspect in it, and it's cheating physically as well. The stripper grinds on his lap...he gets a hard on. Can't anyone understand that this is actually cheating? You're pleasing yourself with another woman. Hello?



This is one of the things I can truly agree with. The idea of not being bothered by strip clubs is just...it makes it seem like you don't care about the man very much, to be honest. Because as Meak said, they will get the visual of her on the pole, and then if they get a lap dance, she's grinding on YOUR man and giving YOUR man a hard-on. Do you really feel comfortable thinking that another woman has given him a hard-on? Does it not even register as painful to you at all that he gets aroused by someone other than you...this is YOUR man, not hers, not someone else's, yours.


Just saying, the main argument for it, is one of "personal freedom" yet I see it as a slippery slope because of the arousal factor and it could be seen as you not caring if he cheats. Argue with my view if you want, just saying my opinion.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

Meak said:


> Porn and strip clubs are similar but not exact.
> Porn is purely visual, strip clubs are visual AND physical.
> 
> I believe when a man watches porn, he is cheating emotionally, and put the physical aspect in it, and it's cheating physically as well. The stripper grinds on his lap...he gets a hard on. Can't anyone understand that this is actually cheating? You're pleasing yourself with another woman. Hello?


to dumbass men who are trying to justify it, it isn't cheating until you're having some form of sex


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> to dumbass men who are trying to justify it, it isn't cheating until you're having some form of sex



Having someone grind their crotch against you is a form of sex.
It is sexual activity.


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## walkawaysun09 (Mar 13, 2010)

Just because it's not sex, doesn't mean it doesn't have the potential to hurt the woman, whether she says it does or not. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want my man going to strip clubs, because I'd be imagining the other women grinding on him, and feeling like I'm not good enough, not worth it. It would drive me a bit insane, and probably lead me to start the process of eliminating him from my life.

I'm just going to say, whoever is all for it, especially the women who are "ok" with it...I think I'm losing more respect for your moral fortitude the more you spew off the excuses for something that shouldn't exist, just like Prostitution.


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## marked174 (Feb 24, 2010)

How bout this... if it will put you in jail for doing it with a minor, then doing that same thing with an adult that isn't your SO is considered cheating. easy enough


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

OmarFW said:


> to dumbass men who are trying to justify it, it isn't cheating until you're having some form of sex


What counts as cheating differs from person to person. Again, you can't speak for everyone.

Anyway, its important that the two people in a relationship share the same opinion on what counts as cheating, and communicate it properly so that its agreed upon. This alone would eliminate a lot of hurt feelings. When people don't communicate this, and then someone goes against what the other person's rules are, there is a lot of hurt feelings and confusion.

I also don't think two people should bother getting into a relationship at all until they can -agree- on exactly what counts as infidelity.

If both parties involved are fine with mental infidelity - who should give a fuck, outside of the relationship, but if one is cool with it, and the other isn't - well then that's a big shitstorm on the horizon.

I see a lot of people disagreeing over these things really for no purpose. You don't have to date someone who goes against your own values, if you don't want to. 

The biggest issue in all of this, is that people will lie their way into a relationship and pretend to share your opinions and values on the important things (honesty, and fidelity). That sucks.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

When I say that, i am recalling the definitions of the men I know that I am using as a reference. They don't consider grinding to be a form of sex. hence the "to dumbass men"

I didn't say anything about what my definition of sex was. don't plaster my fathers sexism onto me

with that clarified, i agree with everything else everyone said


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## obz900 (Mar 29, 2010)

I think it's bullshit that people are talking about "what counts" as cheating. Like it's some kind of game. If you're in a relationship, you should be smart enough to know what would make your SO uncomfortable. Why would you even want to be physically intimate with another person?


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

walkawaysun09 said:


> This is one of the things I can truly agree with. The idea of not being bothered by strip clubs is just...it makes it seem like you don't care about the man very much, to be honest. Because as Meak said, they will get the visual of her on the pole, and then if they get a lap dance, she's grinding on YOUR man and giving YOUR man a hard-on. Do you really feel comfortable thinking that another woman has given him a hard-on? Does it not even register as painful to you at all that he gets aroused by someone other than you...this is YOUR man, not hers, not someone else's, yours.


Guys get hard-ons from a lot of things that are not their partner. 

They gets ones on the beach with lots of semi-naked ladies around. They get ones on the bus when they see a pretty girl sitting up front in a miniskirt. They get hard-ons for cute co-workers and for beautiful women passing on the street. They get them from watching porn or any semi-erotic love scenes on the TV. They get them even when they are asleep, unconscious and dreaming. Sometimes those dreams aren't about you but involve other people they know in real life. Mornings give guys a hard-on. Phone conversations give them hard-ons. Internet chatting gives them hard-ons. Gaming and sports when there is a lot of adrenaline released makes them horny and gives them hard-ons. Finally they can even get hard-ons for other guys if they are slightly bi. In summary, going about day-to-day life gives guys hard-ons. The only way to put an end to this and reclaim your damaged self-esteem would be to tie him down in basement and feed him drugs so that he doesn't ever dream at night.

A guy's hard-on is not really a proof of his love and commitment to me. So if something or somebody else besides my naked body gives him an erection, I don't feel like I am less worthy and less desirable because of it. I would feel uncomfortable if the guy ONLY wants to watch porn and go to strip clubs and rarely has sex with me. In this case I would assume that something is wrong with him, or me, or both or us and we need to have a talk or go get some sex therapy.


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## tskim (Mar 2, 2010)

vel said:


> Guys get hard-ons from a lot of things that are not their partner.
> 
> They gets ones on the beach with lots of semi-naked ladies around. They get ones on the bus when they see a pretty girl sitting up front in a miniskirt. They get hard-ons for cute co-workers and for beautiful women passing on the street. They get them from watching porn or any semi-erotic love scenes on the TV. They get them even when they are asleep, unconscious and dreaming. Sometimes those dreams aren't about you but involve other people they know in real life. Mornings give guys a hard-on. Phone conversations give them hard-ons. Internet chatting gives them hard-ons. Gaming and sports when there is a lot of adrenaline released makes them horny and gives them hard-ons. Finally they can even get hard-ons for other guys if they are slightly bi. In summary, going about day-to-day life gives guys hard-ons. The only way to put an end to this and reclaim your damaged self-esteem would be to tie him down in basement and feed him drugs so that he doesn't ever dream at night.
> 
> A guy's hard-on is not really a proof of his love and commitment to me. So if something or somebody else besides my naked body gives him an erection, I don't feel like I am less worthy and less desirable because of it. I would feel uncomfortable if the guy ONLY wants to watch porn and go to strip clubs and rarely has sex with me. In this case I would assume that something is wrong with him, or me, or both or us and we need to have a talk or go get some sex therapy.


Why bother getting help with his problems or even attempt to fix the situation when clearly, he doesn't prioritize you by making you feel uncomfortable by paying attention to his needs through porn and strip clubs?

Edit: As far as hard-ons, I was told that men get a reaction off from what they see for the fact that they saw a body part and it caused a reaction. Overall, a hard on can be controlled by looking away. I see it more as, people justifying their actions but its more of an accident if someone were to have a hard on looking at a girl who wore a bikini for an example, when in fact he could've looked the other way.


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## vel (May 17, 2010)

Applemilk said:


> Why bother getting help with his problems or even attempt to fix the situation when clearly, he doesn't prioritize you by making you feel uncomfortable by paying attention to his needs through porn and strip clubs?
> 
> Edit: As far as hard-ons, I was told that men get a reaction off from what they see for the fact that they saw a body part and it caused a reaction. Overall, a hard on can be controlled by looking away. I see it more as, people justifying their actions but its more of an accident if someone were to have a hard on looking at a girl who wore a bikini for an example, when in fact he could've looked the other way.


Once he looked there is already an image. Sure he can look away but he will get aroused. People with low sex drives probably won't get this - how one can get aroused from one glance - but guys who are deprived of sex by their wives do start thinking about sex every hour and react to other pretty women around them much more intensely, as such even one brief look can yield sexual arousal.

Why get help? Well a therapist can provide you with 3rd party point of view and let you decide whose fault it really is and whether you should initiate divorce if it is a big problem - yours for having unrealistic expectations of your man and being frigid, or his fault for not directing his sexual energy where it should be directed and being inattentive to you. Divorces cost, new relationships are slow to build up, thus people go get help and mediation of their problems for existing relationships.


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

body parts are simply arousal instigators, once a guy is thinking sexually it is simply a matter of willpower and thinking of something to distract oneself from it.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

vel said:


> Guys get hard-ons from a lot of things that are not their partner.


Just mentioning this, but erections can be random and occur at almost any time, regardless of what the man is doing or thinking. The situation he is in can be absolutely non-sexual and he could still get an erection, as they are uncontrollable unless the man is actively thinking or doing something sexual.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> body parts are simply arousal instigators, once a guy is thinking sexually it is simply a matter of willpower and thinking of something to distract oneself from it.


Don't blame body parts for a guy being stupid. If a guy stuck his genitals in my face, I would get angry and then sick to my stomach. Not kidding. 

I would feel the same if I were single. I don't think body parts are meant to be arousal instigators. There is much more to the human body than having the purpose of turning a person on.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> Just mentioning this, but erections can be random and occur at almost any time, regardless of what the man is doing or thinking. The situation he is in can be absolutely non-sexual and he could still get an erection, as they are uncontrollable unless the man is actively thinking or doing something sexual.



I believe if the guy is in front of a stripper, he gets a lap dance, and he gets a hard on, it is more than likely because of her. The type of guys who enjoy getting that sort of attention that is.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Meak said:


> I believe if the guy is in front of a stripper, he gets a lap dance, and he gets a hard on, it is more than likely because of her. The type of guys who enjoy getting that sort of attention that is.


That's because it is, he's in a situation which to him is sexually arousing.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

skycloud86 said:


> That's because it is, he's in a situation which to him is sexually arousing.


I see. I thought you were saying that in that type of situation, if he got an erection it wouldn't be because it's sexual. - Shrugs-


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## OmarFW (Apr 8, 2010)

Meak said:


> Don't blame body parts for a guy being stupid. If a guy stuck his genitals in my face, I would get angry and then sick to my stomach. Not kidding.
> 
> I would feel the same if I were single. I don't think body parts are meant to be arousal instigators. There is much more to the human body than having the purpose of turning a person on.


you seem to be implying that male sexuality and female sexuality both work the same way. and they don't. at all.

if our eyeballs see something physically arousing our body will respond to it. that doesn't mean we necessarily become mentally aroused. our bodies are like overly impatient toddlers that become excited at the smallest stimulation. our minds are what tell the toddler to sit down and stop being annoying. being stupid is a mental decision, our bodies don't have control over us but they do have a small mind of their own.


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## skycloud86 (Jul 15, 2009)

Meak said:


> I see. I thought you were saying that in that type of situation, if he got an erection it wouldn't be because it's sexual. - Shrugs-


No, men can certainly get erections from sexual arousal jut as much as they can get it involuntarily.


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## Hiki (Apr 17, 2010)

OmarFW said:


> you seem to be implying that male sexuality and female sexuality both work the same way. and they don't. at all.
> 
> if our eyeballs see something physically arousing our body will respond to it. that doesn't mean we necessarily become mentally aroused. our bodies are like overly impatient toddlers that become excited at the smallest stimulation. our minds are what tell the toddler to sit down and stop being annoying. being stupid is a mental decision, our bodies don't have control over us but they do have a small mind of their own.



I understand you're probably speaking for yourself, and you are aroused by the way a woman looks, but there are people out there who get turned on by how a person acts, thinks. By romantic ideas, by their voice. 

Some women get turned on for the same reason men do. Visual stimuli. 
Were not all the same. (Including men)


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## Aqualung (Nov 21, 2009)

My wife would be crushed & probably shocked if I went to a strip club. I went often after I divorced my ex in '93, to help me forget about her. It worked but after awhile it began to frustrate me. Like a friend once said, "Why start a fire you have to put out yourself?" Here's a crude analogy: I'm hungry so I pay $20 to enter to a restaurant. They put a plate of food on the table but I can't touch it. They bring $8 beers to me every 10 minutes & expect a tip, as I stare at the food. They'll set the plate on my lap for 4 minutes for an extra $30. If I touch it they throw me out. After an hour of staring at the food I walk out painfully starved & say "Wow that was amazing!" And my buddies say "Yeah! We gotta come back tomorrow!" Anyway, I got tired of staggering out with a raging boner & no place to put it. No disrespect intended comparing women & food.


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## Rayne (Apr 28, 2010)

What kind of moron goes to a strip club when the internet exists? Especially if you already have a partner.


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