# Cycling Caffeine (Coffee) (brain hack)



## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Just got off caffeine for a week and now back on it (1 cup coffee ~ 100 mg caffeine / day, same amount in the past). From the experience, the effects were quite strong unlike before when I already developed a tolerance for it. 

This leads to the question, has anyone here tried cycling (going on/off on a consistent basis) caffeine intakes before building up a tolerance? I'm thinking of going 4 days on 1 cup/day followed by 3 days of rest.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

I haven't tried this before, but I probably should. I have noticed the same thing you are. After a couple of weeks of drinking coffee at work, the caffeine no longer kicks in. In fact, drinking coffee was making me sleepy. So, I've stopped drinking it for about 4 days now and find that I have more energy. It's somewhat strange, but I'm sure my sleeping patterns has a strong effect on this.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

@Solrac026

Indeed, the experiences I've read suggests that the rate of caffeine tolerance buildup also depends on the quantity of consumption. Two ways to interpret tolerance is in the buzz when you're on it and the magnitude+duration of the withdrawl effects. What i'm trying to figure out is how to modulate this quantity in both long-term and short-term cycles to extract the greatest benefits with minimum withdraw symptoms.


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## LadyO.W.BernieBro (Sep 4, 2010)

Before l became a slave to caffeine, l'd go off of it every Sunday, and sleep in pretty late so the off day was more bearable.

l don't know what the official consensus is with ''adrenal fatigue'', but when l consume too much caffeine, which can sometimes be what other people might consider a normal amount, l check all those symptom boxes. 

Mind you, some people go on for years feeling awful and don't seem to care, l really feel disgusting when l start feeling that caffeine-induced, bloated and dependent feeling and usually when dark undereye circles start to appear l know it's really time to give it a break.

My point was that, even with just that one day break l never entered that dependency phase and my tolerance stayed low to average.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

I was just thinking about my caffeine intake today... I think I'm really weird, I take about 200-400mg/day no side effects. I don't notice any stimulant buzz, and if I go off it, I rarely feel any dependency issues too... I did once for like a week a couple of years ago, but I suspect it was because I was chugging energy drinks like water and not straight caffeine pills like I do now.

Today I took roughly 600 or 800mg, can't remember how much.... I took it with a whole bunch of other stuff to balance out the effects and make the stimulant hit much _smoother_, and I feel wired as fuck. But not bad at all. I don't really get the bloating issues/anything else to a noticeable effect....

I might start cycling but I don't really see the point. If I want a stimulant buzz, I have plenty of other stimulants at hand. I will probably take a break soon though, because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere too much caffeine is bad for you....

_Tolerance really isn't an issue_ unless you want to feel that buzz every single time you take it.... I feel an energy lift, and that suffices for me.


edit: just checked online and apparently anything up to 400mg daily is fine. Phew.


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## Permeate (May 27, 2012)

I've quit coffee a couple times to rewire my tolerance, but I can't stand caffeine withdrawals so I continue to consume it rather irresponsibly.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

I was on non-daily caffeine for several years. I find it's best to take it once every X days (where X depends on the dosage and the individual metabolism, etc), as opposed to "Y days in a row". I find that even 3 days in a row, and I'm hooked and will experience withdrawal symptoms, whereas having it once every 3-4 days or so, and I get that nice "caffeine high" with minimal crash effects.

There were a couple terms of school where I would take it M-F, and then Saturday evening would be awful. If you take it 5 days in a row, you may as well keep going  I did daily for a few years after that, and now I'm back to a couple times a week pattern (but only white/green tea, 20-40mg).


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## spylass (Jan 25, 2014)

Permeate said:


> I've quit coffee a couple times to rewire my tolerance, but I can't stand caffeine withdrawals so I continue to consume it rather irresponsibly.


Same here. I've tried to quite caffeine but it makes me so sluggish and sleepy/unfocused that I'd think there are more negatives than benefits in trying to go days without it.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Spades said:


> I was on non-daily caffeine for several years. I find it's best to take it once every X days (where X depends on the dosage and the individual metabolism, etc), as opposed to "Y days in a row". I find that even 3 days in a row, and I'm hooked and will experience withdrawal symptoms, whereas having it once every 3-4 days or so, and I get that nice "caffeine high" with minimal crash effects.
> 
> There were a couple terms of school where I would take it M-F, and then Saturday evening would be awful. If you take it 5 days in a row, you may as well keep going  I did daily for a few years after that, and now I'm back to a couple times a week pattern (but only white/green tea, 20-40mg).


The "take every x days" cycle does prevent the tolerance from building but I'm also trying to push the limits. So far, my 4-3 rule still produces noticeable tolerance effects so I've now experimenting with pseudo-geometric progression intervals (1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/4, 0, 1, ...) of 100mg dose. Problem with these experiments is that they take a long time for the effects to settle in and evaluated and are somewhat subjective. In principle, one should go completely off the caffeine for several days before trying new cycles. Too bad I couldn't find any studies or much anecdotal evidence on this over the interwebs.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

The first day you drink coffee in a while is _fucking *excellent*_. That said, yes, I've had this idea, but then I've never wanted to do it strongly enough. I don't know if a week is long enough to have restart the kick you have when you drink it. Probably 8-10 days at first, then starting the weekly cycle after only a few days of drinking coffee(enough to make up the fortnight[this is just based off my experience from drinking coffee heavily and then just forgetting about it multiple times over the years]).

Also, someone mentioned sleepiness, that's from the usual digestion energy outweighing the produced energy(probably due to warmth of the coffee). I have also heard dehydration combined with habitual lack of drinking water and the vasoconstrictor properties. Personally, I notice becoming sleepy with any warm drink, so I'm inclined to think it's because coffee feels like a warm blanket in your insides.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

There's more and more studies coming out saying that tolerance is a myth - it's basically people chasing after that "euphoric" feeling they had once they first started taking whatever drug they're on, so they just keep taking more and more, thus, counter-productively increasing their tolerance levels much quicker.

Basically, don't chase the high. Consistent use for medical drugs is much more effective than taking breaks to adjust for "tolerance." Not too sure about how much it matters for caffeine though.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

JungleDelRey said:


> There's more and more studies coming out saying that tolerance is a myth - it's basically people chasing after that "euphoric" feeling they had once they first started taking whatever drug they're on, so they just keep taking more and more, thus, counter-productively increasing their tolerance levels much quicker.
> 
> Basically, don't chase the high. Consistent use for medical drugs is much more effective than taking breaks to adjust for "tolerance." Not too sure about how much it matters for caffeine though.


My own experience after constant use of caffeine (same quantity/day) followed by a sudden stop is lethargy, followed by a bit of tension headaches. The withdraw effects are quite real as brain scans have shown difficult normative rates of bloodflow to the brain when either hooked on caffeine or off it.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> My own experience after constant use of caffeine (same quantity/day) followed by a sudden stop is lethargy, followed by a bit of tension headaches. The withdraw effects are quite real as brain scans have shown difficult normative rates of bloodflow to the brain when either hooked on caffeine or off it.


I'm not doubting withdrawal... i was doubting tolerance


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

JungleDelRey said:


> I'm not doubting withdrawal... i was doubting tolerance


Withdrawl follows from tolerance for caffeine. The way that caffeine works is that it blocks adenosine receptors which when normally activated does cause changes to the bloodflow of the brain. Overtime, the brain starts producing more receptors which is to say that the caffeine, which once blocked a fraction of the adenosine receptors, becomes less of an inhibitor as it blocks a smaller fraction now. The experience is one of caffeine tolerance or that that caffeine ain't having the same effect as before. The sudden removal or lack of consumption of caffeine from the system causes the now abundance of unblocked adensonine receptors to pick up any adensosine released, which is to say, the brain becomes oversensitive to adensoine (qualitatively fatigue) and shuts down; i.e. withdrawl symptoms from tolerance.

Tangentially, this explains why one can take a single hit of caffeine in one day and not experience withdrawl the next if one wasn't previously taking caffeine for the past several days.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Withdrawl follows from tolerance for caffeine.


Right, but they are different things. I was talking about tolerance as in "diminution in the body's response to a drug after continued use."

I think, that diminution is psychological as opposed to physical or physiological.

I know what withdrawal is.


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## HumanBeing (May 28, 2014)

Out of curiosity, why is caffeine worth it? Why not let the body find balance on it's own?


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

HumanBeing said:


> Out of curiosity, why is caffeine worth it? Why not let the body find balance on it's own?


New heights can be achieved but at a cost; it's like a bargain with the devil except the terms can be negotiated in your favor.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

JungleDelRey said:


> I think, that diminution is psychological as opposed to physical or physiological.


Not sure if it's purely psychological. The organic explanation for caffeine tolerance is well documented and the behavioral explanation of caffeine tolerance was empirically validated in blind-studies (e.g. Evans, Suzette M., and Roland R. Griffiths. "Caffeine tolerance and choice in humans." _Psychopharmacology 108.1-2 (1992): 51-59.__) _


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Not sure if it's purely psychological. The organic explanation for caffeine tolerance is well documented and the behavioral explanation of caffeine tolerance was empirically validated in blind-studies (e.g. Evans, Suzette M., and Roland R. Griffiths. "Caffeine tolerance and choice in humans." _Psychopharmacology 108.1-2 (1992): 51-59.__) _


your psychological state affects your behaviour so i'm not sure what your point is, and to be quite frank I don't want to know thanks.

edit: just read the abstract of the paper, it literally just validates my point anyway.



> The study documented tolerance development to the subjective effects of caffeine: after chronic dosing, administration of caffeine produced significant subjective effects in the chronic placebo group but not in the chronic caffeine group. The study also provided indirect evidence for tolerance development: during chronic dosing, the chronic caffeine and placebo groups did not differ meaningfully on ratings of mood and subjective effect.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

JungleDelRey said:


> your psychological state affects your behaviour so i'm not sure what your point is, and to be quite frank I don't want to know thanks.


This is undervaluing modern science a bit too much. There are many psychological phenomenon that have been shown to have organic causes; e.g. some forms of depression (not all), Alzheimers, Parkinson. The point is that the effects of caffeine on the both the neurophysiology and the qualitiative results are well studied in literature.



JungleDelRey said:


> edit: just read the abstract of the paper, it literally just validates my point anyway.


Read the full abstract carefully... The experiment divided the patients into two groups; one group consumed caffeine latent drink for many days, and the other was a placebo group which consumed a non-caffeinated drink during the same duration. This constitutes what "chronic consumption" refers to. The first result, 



> after chronic dosing, administration of caffeine produced significant subjective effects in the chronic placebo group but not in the chronic caffeine group_.
> _


indicates that administering caffeine after chronic consumption had strong effects on the placebo group (the one that didn't consume caffeine before), and little effect on the already caffeine latent group. i.e. the former placebo group who was previouslly off caffeine was given caffeine and exhibited its effects. The latter non-effect on the already caffeine latent group is a signal for caffeine tolerance that was built-up.



> during chronic dosing, the chronic caffeine and placebo groups did not differ meaningfully on ratings of mood and subjective effect_._


This drives the point that tolerance was built up in the caffeine latent group to the point where subjective reports of mood did not differ from that of the placebo group. i.e. the indistinguishably of the two groups during chronic dosing is a sign of caffeine tolerance in the caffeine latent group.

What's the takeway from the study? Caffeine tolerance is real. Continuous drinking of 300mg dose per day for 1/2 month lead to indistinguishably from non-drinkers. Thus, motivating the proposed solution in this tread for "cycling" caffeine consumption as to not build tolerance.


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> This is undervaluing modern science a bit too much. There are many psychological phenomenon that have been shown to have organic causes; e.g. some forms of depression (not all), Alzheimers, Parkinson. The point is that the effects of caffeine on the both the neurophysiology and the qualitiative results are well studied in literature.


I have no idea why you are making this into a thing. 
Caffeine has nothing to do with illnesses, so I don't know what that has to do with the discussion. I have not denied anything about the organic causes of illnesses, just tolerance.

I have not denied the effects of caffeine omg. I have just talked about tolerance. Literally. Just tolerance. That is the scope of my post. I really don't know why you are so desperate to draw everything other than the issue into what I am discussing. Please stop dragging this out already my god - in this thread, the only scope of my interest is the topic of _tolerance._




> Read the full abstract carefully... The experiment divided the patients into two groups; one group consumed caffeine latent drink for many days, and the other was a placebo group which consumed a non-caffeinated drink during the same duration. This constitutes what "chronic consumption" refers to. The first result,


I did read it, thanks.



> indicates *that administering caffeine after chronic consumption had strong effects on the placebo group* (the one that didn't consume caffeine before), and little effect on the already caffeine latent group. i.e. the former placebo group who was previouslly off caffeine was given caffeine and exhibited its effects. *The latter non-effect is a signal for caffeine tolerance that is built-up in the already caffeine latent group.*


Well of course it did because they had not built up their tolerance to it yet.................
_*Right, exactly!!!!!! That's my point!!!!!!!!!!!!! That literally is what tolerance is.*_



> This drives the point that tolerance was built up in the caffeine latent group to the point where subjective reports of mood did not differ from that of the placebo group. i.e. *the indistinguishably of the two groups during chronic dosing is a sign of caffeine tolerance in the caffeine latent group.*


....Precisely.
At no point do any of my posts object to or deny that. In fact, that literally is what tolerance is: "diminution in the body's response to a drug after continued use."

My point about it being psychological is that the _biological effects_ of caffeine were still happening on the body, however, the caffeine latent group could not feel it hence "diminution in the body's response" - and this is why they recorded not much significant difference between the *subjective* mood and effects. None of that denies whether or not the drug _was actually_ causing any changes, rather, _just how the body responded to it_.

And by psychological, I mean: "(of an ailment or problem) having a mental rather than a physical cause."

That is, no mental response even though the physical cause (changes in the body due to caffeine) is present - i.e., you don't feel it but it doesn't mean it's not happening.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

@JungleDelRey

It was from these quotes:


> There's more and more studies coming out saying that tolerance is a myth
> ...
> Consistent use for medical drugs is much more effective than taking breaks to adjust for "tolerance."
> ...
> ...



where I got the impression that you didn't believe in caffeine tolerance (devaluating it as psychological rather than having an organic basis), or not making a fine distinction between pyschological and organic as done in the medical profession (the former's absence of explanations via biology).​


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## DAPHNE XO (Jan 16, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> @JungleDelRey
> 
> It was from these quotes:
> 
> ...


Wow, that makes sooo much more sense now. If you read the entire sentence, you can see that I actually explain what tolerance is - aka diminution of a body's response to a drug after continued use;



> "it's basically people chasing after that "euphoric" feeling they had once they first started taking whatever drug they're on, so they just keep taking more and more, thus, counter-productively increasing their tolerance levels much quicker."


If you had taken into account what I was responding to which was:


> From the experience, the effects were quite strong unlike before when I already developed a tolerance for it.


Then it makes sense what I was calling a "myth": that the effects are stronger unlike before when I had already developed a tolerance for it.

It was your version of tolerance that I was doubting, thus calling a myth.

The idea that the body does not experience any effects of any drug after chronic use simply isn't true; it's much more likely that you just don't feel the effects. Or that the effects are "stronger" isn't true either, you probably just feel them more because your body is not used to the feeling. Hence my explanation. And it's actually been backed up by the paper you presented - the subjective feelings and moods between the chronic and the placebo group did not differ in significance... so to say that the caffeine was having _no_ effect or that the effect was "stronger" makes no sense based on what the study says.

Sorry I wasn't much clearer in what I was saying, but I thought you would have taken it in context.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

JungleDelRey said:


> Sorry I wasn't much clearer in what I was saying, but I thought you would have taken it in context.


Yea, my bad. Seems like the context went over my head at the time and I judged too quickly.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm really liking this discussion! =) Also, I do think it takes longer for the physical tolerance to go back down to baseline than the psychological one (i.e. a few days without caffeine, and a cup of coffee will feel great again, but it probably takes like 2+ weeks for your body to stabilize to what it was like before any caffeine) <-- This is all entirely speculation though, I haven't read any caffeine papers in quite some time and could be way off the mark.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Just an update: I find that the on-off cycles suggested by @Spades works the best (no withdrawal symptoms). In my tests, a 3-day gap (no-drinking) is enough make the next caffeine hit (60-100mg) potent. When reduced to a 2-day gap, it's grogginess after a few reps ;(


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## skyrimorchestra (Jul 23, 2014)

Lord oh lord. I work in a call center environment, so yeah. Maximum energy drink! If I don't drink one for a day I get the major caffeine headache. Blaurahgh! I've never actually noticed a tolerance, though. I usually get about the same rush or at the very least, no headache, as long as I get my intake.


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## Max (Aug 14, 2014)

Kind of.

During the week, I usually take one or two cups, but at the weekend, I try not to take any.

Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

Depends on if I need a boost or not.


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## Biracial (Sep 8, 2010)

nonnaci said:


> Just got off caffeine for a week and now back on it (1 cup coffee ~ 100 mg caffeine / day, same amount in the past). From the experience, the effects were quite strong unlike before when I already developed a tolerance for it.
> 
> This leads to the question, has anyone here tried cycling (going on/off on a consistent basis) caffeine intakes before building up a tolerance? I'm thinking of going 4 days on 1 cup/day followed by 3 days of rest.


Is coffee the only source of caffeine you have?


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Biracial said:


> Is coffee the only source of caffeine you have?


Yes. And I'm generalizing coffee to any source of caffeine.


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## B00Bz (Jul 11, 2013)

I have to drink caffeine every day or not at all. If I start drinking it after not doing so for a while I get dizzy.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

I wonder what's going on when you've never really experienced coffee highs, and you never have withdrawal symptoms.... I've been drinking 2-3 cups of coffee a day for enjoyment for two years or so. I wouldn't say it ever gave me an energy boost (I've been able to drink coffee and go to sleep immediately afterwards since I've been drinking it). I just enjoy it, and if I forget and don't drink coffee at all, I don't notice any affects. Why are some people barely affected at all? I would assume it's still blocking the adenosine receptors, so I'm not sure why I don't seem to ever get a high, even before I developed tolerance, if I ever even did, since I don't have withdrawal symptoms either.


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Arya said:


> I wonder what's going on when you've never really experienced coffee highs, and you never have withdrawal symptoms.... I've been drinking 2-3 cups of coffee a day for enjoyment for two years or so. I wouldn't say it ever gave me an energy boost (I've been able to drink coffee and go to sleep immediately afterwards since I've been drinking it). I just enjoy it, and if I forget and don't drink coffee at all, I don't notice any affects. Why are some people barely affected at all? I would assume it's still blocking the adenosine receptors, so I'm not sure why I don't seem to ever get a high, even before I developed tolerance, if I ever even did, since I don't have withdrawal symptoms either.


Withdrawal symptoms usually reach their apex after a day you skipped.


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## Arya (Oct 17, 2012)

nonnaci said:


> Withdrawal symptoms usually reach their apex after a day you skipped.


So it won't affect you the first day, but it will if you skip a second day?


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## nonnaci (Sep 25, 2011)

Arya said:


> So it won't affect you the first day, but it will if you skip a second day?


I quote from my own experience but if you want technicals, half-life of caffeine depends on the person and is typically 5-6 hours. Only a small fraction will remain in your system by the end of the first day, to which depending on your prior sensitivity to caffeine factoring in adenosine tolerance, may produce different qualitative effects from nothing at all, to typical withdrawal symptoms.


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## lunai (Feb 22, 2014)

I'd like to quit caffeine altogether. I don't want to require any of it to get through the day. I started drinking it in the first place to deal with chronic fatigue - bad idea.


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## Biracial (Sep 8, 2010)

Exactly how much water do you drink per day? Do you cycle mega doses of b12 I think it's 5k mg or more? I'm thinking of offsetting the lethargy that comes from caffeine restriction and removal.


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## Solrac026 (Mar 6, 2012)

The more you know *Insert Rainbow here*


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## Echoe (Apr 23, 2012)

It seems like I tend to start forming caffeine dependency if I have it at least three days in a row... However, at least twice now I've drunken it 3-4 days in a row without withdrawals afterwards -- during both times I'm pretty sure I had varying amounts of caffeine over the days, and didn't have all the intakes at the same time of day. I don't really recall much detail, but yeah, in the times where I did have withdrawals before, I had probably the same amount of coffee at about the same time (mid morning).


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