# Lying as a Mechanism



## zinnia (Jul 22, 2013)

Interestingly, I was musing on how much of a pathological liar I am recently, haha.

As a 3 (maybe even one with a 7 fix), I find myself doing this pretty often. I also wouldn't call myself unhealthy... but there is something to wanting to affect someone else's thought of me, as well as also wanting to avoid boredom. It's a mix of wanting to add something new or interesting with wanting to create an image.

Obviously, I have no idea what's going through the mind of the people you mentioned, but I don't consider myself necessarily clingy... interested in fiction? Maybe, because those stories can take the place of the stories I lie about too, maybe even serve as inspiration. In there somewhere, is the idea that I don't care if it's real or not, as long as it's _interesting_. Can lead to some problems, as I'm sure you can imagine. I would say, too, at least from the 3 side... it's almost like I am filling in information about myself because I often experience myself as a blank space.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

charlie.elliot said:


> I view it as kind of a standard, pretty common behavior. It doesn't make me judge someone harshly... Really, *I know they're just doing it for attention, and underneath they're insecure*... I view it as harmless. It can get annoying, but when they do it, I just smile slightly and sigh inside and dont respond.


My sentiments exactly. It seems like they're trying to entertain people. It never strikes me as malicious...



charlie.elliot said:


> Maybe that's because I grew up with a 3w4 friend who exaggerated *ALL* the time...


This sounds like an exaggeration. ;-)


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

crashbandicoot said:


> I used to claim that I engaged in a fight against Goldar with Power Rangers and made them defeat the monster, as a kid.
> 
> I kinda do this, when I'm bored or people arent talking. I'm not good with finding normal things to talk about so I at least *try to entertain*, lol. :tongue:
> 
> It could be that those people are trying to say *"Hey, look, I'm not much different than you"*.


This is very insightful. I hadn't considered that it's rooted in a desire to bond. 

What's your Enneagram(s)?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

zinnia said:


> Interestingly, I was musing on how much of a pathological liar I am recently, haha.
> 
> As a 3 (maybe even one with a 7 fix), I find myself doing this pretty often. I also wouldn't call myself unhealthy... but there is something to *wanting to affect someone else's thought of me, as well as also wanting to avoid boredom.* It's a mix of wanting to add something new or interesting with wanting to create an image.
> 
> Obviously, I have no idea what's going through the mind of the people you mentioned, but I don't consider myself necessarily clingy... interested in fiction? Maybe, because those stories can take the place of the stories I lie about too, maybe even serve as inspiration. In there somewhere, is the idea that I don't care if it's real or not, as long as it's _interesting_. Can lead to some problems, as I'm sure you can imagine. I would say, too, at least from the 3 side... it's almost like *I am filling in information about myself because I often experience myself as a blank space*.


This is very insightful. Thanks for your openness and honesty.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> This is very insightful. I hadn't considered that it's rooted in a desire to bond.
> 
> What's your Enneagram(s)?


Your thread made me think of this oldie, but goodie 
https://turtleneckandchains.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/crazy-college-essay-that-actually-got-accepted/


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## Mr inappropriate (Dec 17, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> This is very insightful. I hadn't considered that it's rooted in a desire to bond.
> 
> What's your Enneagram(s)?


It happens, you know. Not necessarily "bond" but to engage in conversation or sth. 
"Oh, I've been there, too.."
"My dad is also a ..."

I'm 7-1-(3/2), most likely.


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## Figure (Jun 22, 2011)

Nobleheart said:


> This is highly insightful. Thanks for your openness and honesty. Do you think being a 1 flavored what you lied about? Did it cause you to try to self present as 'perfect' or ideal, as a good or incorruptible person?


Glad it helped 

Oh definitely, it did. As an SO 1 I have a habit (even now) of using my knowledge, qualifications, or I guess self-assumed "authority" to impose what is basically social ambition into my surroundings, and most of the things I lied about were with exclusivity in mind. It was definitely to be "good," but not fly to Nicaragua and teach village kids how to wash their hands good, more good in academic/professional achievement, and being competitive in these areas. I wanted to be the single person who got an answer right on an exam while everyone else was complaining about how unfair it was. Or, sure, I got an acceptance from Yale, but went where I went to our college instead because I liked the campus better. Or, I can speak fluent Japanese because my grandma taught me from a young age. 

Sadly, I'm extremely good at BS-ing too! 1's are constantly building bulletproof cases internally with information we think is true, but we can be equally skillful in doing that with information that is false XD (cue, all of the SO type 1 politicians in America?) 

If this helps, looking back - usually, what I actually did I would judge as being slightly below what I say. They're reflections of where I saw that what I did could have been better if it was X, and rejected what I actually did because it wasn't enough. Kind of the same way it plays out in my mind, in that even if I don't actually reach the ideal, hopefully at least working intently to get there is good enough to be accepted. 



> Up until you posted this, I had been assuming these people to be SX, actually. They seem to have a need to engage and connect like SX's, but a lot of what you said could definitely apply to the motivations they seem to have - which is to be impressive to others, to give themselves instant social value. I'd assumed it was to create value as potential mates.


Actually, that makes a lot of/more sense. We may both be onto something. I was thinking that SO causes people to experience adequacy and inadequacy more in terms of other people than the other subtypes would experience it. SX, however, also has the stereotypes with "peacocking" and trying to get others' attention. 

Perhaps SX is more responsible for the grandiosity? I guess, for both So and Sx, someone wants to be acknowledged (to varying degrees) either with respect to a group of people, or by a specific person. It's an interesting idea.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Figure said:


> Perhaps SX is more responsible for the grandiosity? I guess, for both So and Sx, someone wants to be acknowledged (to varying degrees) either with respect to a group of people, or by a specific person. It's an interesting idea.


Maybe it's an sx/so and so/sx thing. Peacocking and Positioning.

Interestingly, the things people tend to lie about really do seem to reflect their Enneatypes. 

Seems like the bullshitting thing I'm referring to specifically centers around id, competence, sx, and so. I'd imagine 3 sx is the most notorious for this. 1s seem to do this for competence reasons. 7s seem to do this for id reasons. Though, I wouldn't rule out 4 with its need to create a self image for itself.

Hmm.


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## Greys0n (Oct 7, 2015)

I see nothing bad in lie. Lie saves marriage and if we all tell true we will never have friends.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

Lying is a tool to get what you want. Sometimes people need to be impressed before they'll trust you, sometimes they need to think you care before opening up, sometimes they need to feel validated before helping you out... whatever it is, we do it because it'll yield more than the truth will. 

The kind of lying you seem to be pointing towards is impressing for validation - probably a 3 trait.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Lying is a tool to get what you want. Sometimes people need to be impressed before they'll trust you, sometimes they need to think you care before opening up, sometimes they need to feel validated before helping you out... whatever it is, we do it because it'll yield more than the truth will.
> 
> The kind of lying you seem to be pointing towards is impressing for validation - probably a 3 trait.


Ever played Mafia on PerC? I think you'd be dangerous!


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I 'confronted' one of them about it. He's older than the others, so he seems to be more self aware, but the response was not what l expected. I'll paraphrase the hour or so:


> I have this bizarre need to entertain. I've always had it. I love people and want them to be happy, but when I'm in conversations, the things they say inspire my creativity. All of a sudden, I'm taking over the conversation, trying to entertain them because these things entertain me so much. I want to share this feeling with them, but I usually just end up showing them that I care more about my stories than I do their feelings, which is basically the opposite of what I want.
> 
> I don't know if I'm trying to get them to like me, or think more of me. Usually, I'm very vague about myself. My stories focus on what happened, usually what other people did that was entertaining, unusual, or shocking, or thought provoking, or something that evokes an emotion. Some of my stories don't paint a good picture of me, so much as create an entertaining situation.
> 
> ...


The reason I found this so unexpected is that this guy is otherwise extremely talented, charming, and confident. He's had a lot of artistic success (that I can verify), and always has a beautiful woman at his side at public events. He's confident to the point of coming across as arrogant, and a jack of all trades. I've always admired his ability to just dive into things and be good at them. 

It's like none of what he said about himself seems to match the reality of him. I'm starting to wonder if all of that outward persona was developed as compensation for this thing he explained. Like... he lied to himself long enough to make it true or something? This thing that drives him to bullshit also drove him to get good at things?

The more I think about it, the more I feel like I never really knew this guy at all, and I've known him for decades. I had him pegged for an 8 or a counterphobic 6, but this doesn't really sound like that to me at all. It's like everything I assumed about him is actually a suit of armor that he grew and is stuck inside now. The real him is just a clingy little boy who wants attention, to be liked, and to not be hurt, and everything has probably been some kind of compensation so he could be lovable, even the machismo.

I feel like I don't know anything about anything right now.


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## illow (Dec 23, 2012)

The worst liars are the defensive ones. Everyone lies I heard tho, and the figures on how much we lie are actually quite substantial.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> I 'confronted' one of them about it. He's older than the others, so he seems to be more self aware, but the response was not what l expected. I'll paraphrase the hour or so:
> 
> 
> The reason I found this so unexpected is that this guy is otherwise extremely talented, charming, and confident. He's had a lot of artistic success (that I can verify), and always has a beautiful woman at his side at public events. He's confident to the point of coming across as arrogant, and a jack of all trades. I've always admired his ability to just dive into things and be good at them.
> ...


I heard the following fable from an e-3w2 who tends to do the same thing you are describing above.

"There is a beggar on the street, she sings and begs for money everyday of the week, whatever she collects, she puts aside. She barely eats the whole week, except for Sunday, when she takes everything she has, and goes to a 5-star restaurant. She can only afford a cup of soup, but that's enough for her to feel like a human being again, to keep on living."


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> I heard the following fable from an e-3w2 who tends to do the same thing you are describing above.


Are you saying this guy seems like a 3 to you? 

I never really got that impression. Then again, I don't seem to know anything right now. He drives a crappy old car, never dresses especially well unless required, often bumming around in a dorky t-shirt and hadn't shaved in a week. I guess he does tend to brag, but he just doesn't seem that competitive or concerned with maintaining a positive image. He's constantly rubbing people the wrong way because he thinks it's funny. 

Is being entertaining a 3 thing? 

He's amazing at reading people, which makes me assume that he's really not trying to impress others as much as he's trying to entertain himself. If he wanted to manipulate people, I'm sure he could. I've seen him go into sales mode. It's kind of scary to be honest. This guy can talk anyone into anything without them realizing that he did it. And yet, he rarely talks anyone into anything other than letting him help them. He's more than capable of getting into my pants, but rarely ever does. Mostly he just likes to cuddle, and sometimes make out. Come to think of it, he's got a rather strong need for affection. He likes to give back rubs and massages, and will give oral at the drop of a hat. I've slept in his bed many times, and we spooned the whole time.

I dunno, there's this strange degree of sincerity to him despite the bullshitting. Like, he's sincerely bullshitting when he's doing it, not trying to manipulate people. He just doesn't seem like manipulating people is what he's after. He's a complicated monkey.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> "There is a beggar on the street, she sings and begs for money everyday of the week, whatever she collects, she puts aside. She barely eats the whole week, except for Sunday, when she takes everything she has, and goes to a 5-star restaurant. She can only afford a cup of soup, but that's enough for her to feel like a human being again, to keep on living."


This sounds like a 4 sp to me. 

If this guy is doing this stuff to feel like a human being, does that make him some kind of 4? The self esteem issues and artist thing would fit, but I don't know many 4s that would be so inclined to help people or be motivated to entertain. He doesn't seem to have that envy thing I see in a lot of 4s, but he is definitely an idealist. He's more prone to be upset about people not meeting his ideals than other people having what he doesn't. He's generally really happy for other people's success from what I've seen, like maybe that's a value for him that he empathizes with. I just assumed it was because he loves people, but maybe it's feeling like others are given what he would need to overcome his own self esteem issues? 

Ugh. He just became a project.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

x


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Depends on the image he wants to project. It isn't always clean. It's about the 'right' crappy car and the 'right' dorky t-shirt. Maybe 'edgy' is what he goes for.


That's an interesting point. Also, your account name is awesome.

He's not into cars. As in, he is less able to name car makes and models than I am. He calls it his "Dave Ramsey Mobile". Apparently, Dave Ramsey is a financial guru and said that it's cheaper to keep a reliable old car running than to have a car payment. My friend is rather proud of the fact that he saves money on this car. He's had this car since 1996 when he bought it used. I think part of it is that he is attached to the memories in that car, and part of it is that he's afraid to let it go because it's so reliable. I've tried to talk him into getting a newer car, and he's always been reluctant with excuses about how he loves that one, it's not worth it, and doesn't trust another model, etc.

His dorky shirts all seem to have personal significance. They're also usually starting points for his stories. Mostly superheroes. He's into comics and superhero movies. To his credit, he's a published illustrator. Somehow he seems to think this makes his comic book obsession less childish... like it's a professional investment and research or something.

I don't think he's trying to be edgy. In fact, in as long as I've known him, he's battled depression and I can pretty well pinpoint where he's at on a scale of 1 to 10 by how he's groomed. Not shaving in a week or more means he's pretty bad off. It's only when he starts scratching his face a lot that he ends up shaving when he's like that. 

Shit. I just realized he's telling the truth about his self esteem and it's tied into his depression. How the hell can you know someone that well and not know them at all, even when it's all perfectly obvious? He's been upfront about this for as long as I've known him, and I just assumed it was more bullshitting because of how confident he usually is when he's around me or people in general.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> Last edited by Occams Chainsaw; Today at 09:34 AM. Reason: Incorrect


Seemed insightful to me. Why did you assume it's incorrect?


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

Nobleheart said:


> Seemed insightful to me. Why did you assume it's incorrect?


Rather, just decided I wanted more time to mull it over and produce something a little more substantive. 

What you describe sounds kinda similar to me at 17-20. My car was basically the 'correct' econbox, then I got a wrangler to go with it for messing around in the summer, even though my parents were willing to buy something much more expensive. My clothes were pretty bland - white and navy polos, white and blue OCBDs, white tshirts, etc. Facial hair was lazy stubble. I wasn't necessarily disinterested -- everything was tailored to pull off the image of not caring about standing out. To try was to open myself to feeling inadequacy with my best effort. To flaunt and not get the reception I wanted was to fail.

I knew what I wanted to be but I was young and years away from achieving it so I went for the "I don't care" look. I was sharp and short with people, alienated everybody, mocked for my own amusement, etc. It all seemed pretty deep-rooted in shame. As long as it looks like I'm not even trying then it doesn't mean I'm a failure... right?  I wonder if this is the guy you're describing but later on in life. Masking the insecurity with a facade of not success but a disinterest in success, aiding it by fantasizing about things that would make him admired. His lying reminds me of a section of this song (which, for the record, is incredibly type-3): 
* *











"And it always entertains
You're giving pleasure
And that's admirable, you tell yourself"

I've taken it slightly out of context but it's similar because he's rationalizing what he does so he doesn't have to come to terms with it in the same way I think this guy you describe used the entertainment factor to excuse the ploys to impress you. It's easier to admit to than "I feel ashamed of myself and needed to lie to make myself feel better". Maybe I'm way off base here and he honestly just doesn't care. That's why I want time to mull it over.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I wonder if this is the guy you're describing but later on in life.


Yeah, we're both older than we care to admit. Funny though, he refuses to tell anyone how old he is. I'm sure he's older than me, though. We're both Gen X. When people ask him his age, he makes them guess, and when they guess, he just smiles and says things like, "You're my favorite person right now", and changes the subject. He tends to hang out with people much younger than himself, college aged mostly, though I think it's because they have similar nerdy interests. Some of his friends are much older than he is too. Age doesn't seem to matter to him, even when it should.



Occams Chainsaw said:


> I think this guy you describe used the entertainment factor to excuse the ploys to impress you. It's easier to admit to than "I feel ashamed of myself and needed to lie to make myself feel better". Maybe I'm way off base here and he honestly just doesn't care. That's why I want time to mull it over.


Hmm. I'm more under the impression it's "I have no self esteem and need to entertain to make myself feel better." As mentioned in the OP, I don't think it's _lying_ so much as storytelling. I know people who lie to make themselves more than they are. His stories tend to make him look bad almost as often as make him impressive. Most of them are just embellishments. I've known him a long time. I was there when some of these stories happened, and I've seen these stories evolve with the telling.

For example. I once saw him take a samurai sword off of a drunk guy with a martial arts move. This drunk guy wasn't acting like he was going to go mass killing or anything. He was just waving it around and insisting that 'man with sword beats man without sword' jackass challenging people to try to take it from him, so this friend of mine stepped up and did this move that actually got the sword off of the drunk guy and sorta knocked him off balance, and my friend yanked him so he wouldn't fall head first into a gas meter. My friend's leg got cut a little bit in the process. Over the 10+ years since then, this story evolved into something that if you pay close attention to the wording is basically true, but could easily be interpreted as a crazy drunk person bent on chopping up everyone at a party was artfully disarmed, but the martial arts move was flawed and my buddy cut himself with the sword as he put this other guy in a hold, and was a hero. I've heard this story many times when the subject of samurai swords comes up, like it's a reflex that causes him to passionately need to tell this story all of a sudden. I'm not sure if this is his actual memory of the events, or if he's deliberately and cleverly wording it to make it more entertaining. If he's trying to make himself look better, he wouldn't mention cutting himself because he did it wrong, right?

Anyway, that's been the pattern on a lot of stuff with him.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

@Nobleheart Honestly, I'm probably just projecting a little.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> @Nobleheart Honestly, probably just projecting a little.


Maybe, but that doesn't mean you're wrong.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

The reason this whole thread got started was because I met a girl who was doing this sort of mechanism but MUCH harder. Everything that was said created this need in her to interrupt conversation with a story or association she had. 

Someone mentioned an injury, and all of a sudden, this girl blurts out, "I died for 2 and a half minutes." According to her, she was in a bad car wreck and flat lined. She said she there was a bad wreck and she broke all of the bones on the left side of her body, and then got hit by another car when she got out of the wreck where she flat lined for 2 minutes. The telling was convoluted, and I asked her if the paramedics were there when the second car hit her, and she said no. I asked how she was walking around after the wreck if she broke all of those bones. She looked at me like 'does not compute'.

Her friend, who I actually know and trust not to bullshit confirmed that she was in a bad wreck that put her in rehab for a while, but that it wasn't as bad as this girl claimed... but couldn't necessarily prove otherwise.

As best as I could piece together, her boyfriend wrecked his car with her in it, but that's not where the injuries happened. When she got out of the car, she called her dad and then emergency services, and then another car hit her while she was standing in the road and broke whatever it was that she claimed was broken. When the paramedics got there, they got her into the stretcher, and she flat lined in the ambulance. I don't think she was nearly as injured as she claimed, and I doubt that she actually flat lined, but if she did, her knowledge of that fact comes from having been told about it later. I also think her memory of the incident is blurry at best, and she's lying about it to make it seem cooler.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

I once got told by a psychic that I'm psychic.



(Note: the only kind of one-upsmanship that lets the person know what they are doing while being absurd enough that everybody takes it as a joke).


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I often wonder why they advertise for psychic conventions. Shouldn't they already know?


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

It's for the wives. Peace of mind and all.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm trying to look at my buddy through the filter of a 3. This is something I'd never really considered.

It could sorta fit, but there are too many inconsistencies. He's a bit of a show off and a braggart, but even though he's a rather successful artist he only has one piece of his own art hanging in his house - and he said it's because it matches the couch (which it literally does). All of his decorations are nerdy things or stuff with sentimental value (or both). He doesn't even have a website to promote his art, and hardly ever puts any of his artwork on his facebook page. The only time he makes any public mention of his art is when he's trying to sell it. I'd assume a 3 would be all about showing off their success and their efforts?

On the other hand, my chiropractor is a 3. He's the one who introduced me to Enneagram, and it's hilarious how many awards and accolades he has on display at his practice - like stuff that has nothing to do with being a Doctor, such as certificates for military training. He's always in motion, trying to be the best doctor / most efficient manager / nicest counselor / awesome person he can be. He's into Crossfit, always perfectly groomed, and is hyper competitive. 

By contrast, my buddy hasn't been to the gym in like a year or more, and never really went regularly. His awards and certificates are all kept hidden neatly in drawers. He plays a lot of video games, but never finishes them. When other artists move into his 'territory', he is always really nice and helpful to them, gives them tips on how to sell better, get things printed cheaper, etc. I've more than once asked "Why are you helping them?" And he just shrugs and says, "Why wouldn't I?" Most of the time he doesn't even bother getting a table at the conventions he goes to.

I'm having trouble seeing that as 3. Maybe I don't understand 3.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> That's an interesting point. Also, your account name is awesome.
> 
> He's not into cars. As in, he is less able to name car makes and models than I am. He calls it his "Dave Ramsey Mobile". Apparently, Dave Ramsey is a financial guru and said that it's cheaper to keep a reliable old car running than to have a car payment. My friend is rather proud of the fact that he saves money on this car. He's had this car since 1996 when he bought it used. I think part of it is that he is attached to the memories in that car, and part of it is that he's afraid to let it go because it's so reliable. I've tried to talk him into getting a newer car, and he's always been reluctant with excuses about how he loves that one, it's not worth it, and doesn't trust another model, etc.
> 
> ...


See that bolded part? That's exactly why he is inflating his image the way he sees fit. His interests/passions are only validated if they are externally recognized, otherwise he comes off as "childish"... Unfortunately the e-3 obsession in tailored image-making is rooted in reality, and it works!! Everybody does love a winner, faking it till you make it works... even if it is all smoke and mirrors... the sad part comes when he internalizes the public opinion and starts seeing himself as "less than" because what he stands for is not recognized and appreciated without external decoration. Simple acceptance and support is what he probably needs.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> I once got told by a psychic that I'm psychic.
> 
> 
> 
> (Note: the only kind of one-upsmanship that lets the person know what they are doing while being absurd enough that everybody takes it as a joke).


i was once complimented on my ability not to be moved by compliments


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> i was once complimented on my ability not to be moved by compliments




* *




Rubbish. What doesn't move you are compliments you feel are engineered with a goal in mind (even when something honest like rapport building or trying to comfort), rather than organic, reactionary sincerity.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> See that bolded part? That's exactly why he is inflating his image the way he sees fit. His interests/passions are only validated if they are externally recognized, otherwise he comes off as "childish"... Unfortunately the e-3 obsession in tailored image-making is rooted in reality, and it works!! Everybody does love a winner, faking it till you make it works... even if it is all smoke and mirrors... the sad part comes when he internalizes the public opinion and starts seeing himself as "less than" because what he stands for is not recognized and appreciated without external decoration.


Huh. 



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Simple acceptance and support is what he probably needs.


Aww. Next time I see him, I'm going to hug him and do the Good Will Hunting ending thing. Just gotta figure out what to repeat until he breaks.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> * *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sure, but reactionary sincerity is hardly a compliment in the traditional sense, unless it is a carefully engineered reactionary sincerity, in which case -- kudos!


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Huh.
> 
> 
> 
> Aww. Next time I see him, I'm going to hug him and do the Good Will Hunting ending thing. Just gotta figure out what to repeat until he breaks.


just don't hug him in public, cause it might damage his "macho-- cool guy" image


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> sure, but reactionary sincerity is hardly a compliment in the traditional sense, unless it is a carefully engineered reactionary sincerity, in which case -- kudos!


Hehe.

You're-- Never mind.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> just don't hug him in public, cause it might damage his "macho-- cool guy" image


He's super cuddly, but come to think of it, he's kinda touch averse in public. I doubt there's any form of physical affection he wouldn't eat up with a spoon in private. Huh.

Okay, if he's a 3, then what is their healthy and unhealthy path like? He struggles with depression and can get really prickly, prone to ranting when unhealthy. That doesn't seem like a 9. When he's in a good spot, he's super sweetness to an almost sickening degree. Also, he's only creative when he's in a good spot it seems. I'm not seeing the 6 in that. He can't art when he's depressed, which I'd assume 9s are good at.

Also, I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ. I didn't know they could actually be 3s.


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

Nobleheart said:


> Okay, if he's a 3, then what is their healthy and unhealthy path like? He struggles with depression and can get really prickly, prone to ranting when unhealthy. That doesn't seem like a 9. When he's in a good spot, he's super sweetness to an almost sickening degree. Also, he's only creative when he's in a good spot it seems. I'm not seeing the 6 in that. He can't art when he's depressed, which I'd assume 9s are good at.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ. I didn't know they could actually be 3s.


First off, note that healthy and unhealthy levels do not mean integration and disintegration (to 6 and 9) - those are generally short lived moments of empowerment and stress. Each type also has 'health' levels which are more indicative of their static personality and in a type 3 this ranges from pathological narcissist to extremely successful people with good self-esteem.

Healthy, the image we imagine for ourselves is cultivated and there isn't a big gap between the reality and the projection. There's a security in what's been achieved that's comforting -- we're not nothing because "look!" At extremely unhealthy levels, we're delusional and chasing an idealised version of ourselves that has no basis in reality. There's also lesser extremes in the middle, of course.

Jungian and enneagram type correlate pretty well sometimes but ultimately are independent systems that can be combined any way.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Huh. This might be onto something with him. Now that I think about it, he's always telling people they're awesome. I never stopped to consider that he's giving people what he'd want. He's always being nice to people and helping them, again because it's what he'd want, or probably wants to put himself in a position where he's admired. He tries to entertain people, again because it's what he'd want and to be admired. This is starting to make sense actually. I guess if there are 6s who aren't dutiful, there can be 3s who aren't status driven.

He probably got good at art to be admired. He's always been really good at art for as long as I've known him. I'll have to ask him if this was something he developed early, and if he got a lot of praise for it.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> He's super cuddly, but come to think of it, he's kinda touch averse in public. I doubt there's any form of physical affection he wouldn't eat up with a spoon in private. Huh.
> 
> Okay, if he's a 3, then what is their healthy and unhealthy path like? He struggles with depression and can get really prickly, prone to ranting when unhealthy. That doesn't seem like a 9. When he's in a good spot, he's super sweetness to an almost sickening degree. Also, he's only creative when he's in a good spot it seems. I'm not seeing the 6 in that. He can't art when he's depressed, which I'd assume 9s are good at.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure he's an INFJ. I didn't know they could actually be 3s.


Oh I have yet to meet an NFJ who is not a cuddle monster  and yeah, plenty of 3s, or likely 2w3s...as might be the case here.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Huh. This might be onto something with him. Now that I think about it, he's always telling people they're awesome. I never stopped to consider that he's giving people what he'd want. He's always being nice to people and helping them, again because it's what he'd want, or probably wants to put himself in a position where he's admired. He tries to entertain people, again because it's what he'd want and to be admired. This is starting to make sense actually. I guess if there are 6s who aren't dutiful, there can be 3s who aren't status driven.
> 
> He probably got good at art to be admired. He's always been really good at art for as long as I've known him. I'll have to ask him if this was something he developed early, and if he got a lot of praise for it.


NFJs are often "gardeners" they want to see you smile and bloom and radiate warmth in which they'll bask... they get little of the same treatment back though, and giving all the time with minimal returns makes them feel used  Have you seen a short film called "validation"? I am on my phone right now, but you can google it. The guy in it is likely an ENFX 2.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Oh I have yet to meet an NFJ who is not a cuddle monster  and yeah, plenty of 3s, or likely 2w3s...as might be the case here.


You think this sounds more like a 2 than a 3?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> NFJs are often "gardeners" they want to see you smile and bloom and radiate warmth in which they'll bask.


So maybe that's not got to do with Enneagram and more to do with MBTI?


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## Occams Chainsaw (Jan 7, 2015)

3 wing makes sense.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Occams Chainsaw said:


> 3 wing makes sense.


On a 2 or a 4?

Did you guys make a leap of logic without sending me a memo?


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> On a 2 or a 4?
> 
> Did you guys make a leap of logic without sending me a memo?


sorry, i don't do logic 

but going back to his description "helping people" in order to gain acceptance is a 2 trait.
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-2/

hyper-focus on image echoes the 3
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-3/

but, according to him, "helping people" is more important, no?
so 2w3?


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

@Nobleheart, i am back home, so here's "Validation"


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

Well, I figured I would just cut to the chase and go to the source. I told him I needed to analyze him for about an hour of tests and reading, since my assumptions might not be correct. 

I got him to take an axis test and a cognitive functions test. Both came up ENFJ. I had him read the description of ENFJ and INFJ, just to be sure. He said ENFJ was much closer, and commented on how accurate it was, "especially the thing about people coming into the office or calling and always putting everyone else on hold for the new person".

I then linked him to this Enneagram site I like to use as an introduction and asked him to look over the 9 types. He said "Definitely 4. Like, holy shit. I'm mind blown." I asked him something to the effect of, "You're always helping people. You don't jive more with 2?" He said, "I only help people when I'm out, or they seek me out for help. I spend most of my time curled up in a ball of depression alone hurting because of what's missing in my life."

I officially don't know anything about anything. I need to stop assuming my truth is the only truth.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

While looking into the description he locked onto, I found something that seems to nail that thing I addressed in the OP.

"If you are a Four, your task is to establish balance with your emotions and your relationships, and to notice when you are *amplifying your emotion with provocative or dramatic narratives*."

This is almost exactly it. Amplification of Emotions. Dramatic Narratives. Throw in a 3 wing, for that drive to perform and be impressive, and I think we've got it.

Because honestly, everyone I was referring to in this could easily be a 4.

Huh.

The more you know...


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> While looking into the description he locked onto, I found something that seems to nail that thing I addressed in the OP.
> 
> "If you are a Four, your task is to establish balance with your emotions and your relationships, and to notice when you are *amplifying your emotion with provocative or dramatic narratives*."
> 
> ...


Love your non-nonsense approach! 

Found this: 


* *


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

If that guy is an ENFJ 4, then my buddy isn't. 

This guy has no charisma. He has that shrill Te radio show announcer voice thing going. He's got that Si and Fi pull to the center of his face in his micro expressions. Worst of all, he's not connecting with his audience like an ENFJ. He's just regurgitating the type descriptions.

I have a feeling that ENFJ 4 is probably very uncommon, as these descriptions seem almost paradoxical.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> If that guy is an ENFJ 4, then my buddy isn't.
> 
> This guy has no charisma. He has that shrill Te radio show announcer voice thing going. He's got that Si and Fi pull to the center of his face in his micro expressions. Worst of all, he's not connecting with his audience like an ENFJ. He's just regurgitating the type descriptions.
> 
> I have a feeling that ENFJ 4 is probably very uncommon, as these descriptions seem almost paradoxical.


I don't know, his energy is unlike anyone I've ever met. He's like an ISFP on acid.  but not an ISFP, cause those eyes!
@Nobleheart

Is your buddy more like this girl? The charisma, the sass? 


* *


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> I don't know, his energy is unlike anyone I've ever met. He's like an ISFP on acid.  but not an ISFP, cause those eyes!


I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's an INFP, and probably a 3. As an INFP, he wants to be unique, so 4 clicked with him. As a 3, he seems more E and J, and is capable of lying to himself... so he makes videos to convince everyone else. 



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Is your buddy more like this girl? The charisma, the sass?


Yes, exactly like this almost. Watch the difference in how the arms and hands move, the speaking tempo, how the eyebrows and mouth moves. This chick is definitely an ENFJ.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's an INFP, and probably a 3. As an INFP, he wants to be unique, so 4 clicked with him. As a 3, he seems more E and J, and is capable of lying to himself... so he makes videos to convince everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, exactly like this almost. Watch the difference in how the arms and hands move, the speaking tempo, how the eyebrows and mouth moves. This chick is definitely an ENFJ.


ENFJ 2w3  

yep, she does have the ENFJ energy 

your buddy's story doesn't wash, could he be the one confused? could he be more of a 2w3, than a 4w3? on the other hand, we don't know what an ENFJ 4w3 looks like.  it maybe a fictional character 

the first guy doesn't seem like an INFP to me... he's definitely a 4! 
@_Nobleheart_

re: ENFJ energy :tongue:


* *


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> ENFJ 2w3


You think this girl is a 2w3? A lot of ENFJs and ESFJs mistype as 2s because they read "likes to help" in the 2 description, and their feeble Ti doesn't really take it any further than that. ENFJs are commonly also 3s, 6s, 7s, and 9s. She doesn't seem to have the 2-ish warmth. She's also clearly on a mission for self exploration and is very much in tune with her Ni. Maybe she's a 4?



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> yep, she does have the ENFJ energy
> 
> the first guy doesn't seem like an INFP to me... he's definitely a 4!


I'm basing this on a lot of subtle cues. 

1. Speech patterns are a strong indicator. The tempo and pacing, the way they hit their inflections. You'll also notice people with the same function patterns speaking in the same timing... like they'll pause and start talking at the same time.

2. Movement in the micro expressions of the face. The forehead (eyebrows) and mouth muscles are key indicators. Notice how his eyebrows tend to peak in the middle of his head (Si), and hers tend to pull at the arches (Se). Also, his smile pulls at the middle of his mouth and pulls to the sides of his nostrils (Fi), and hers pulls at the sides and is pushed up like a V from her chin (Fe).



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> your buddy's story doesn't wash, could he be the one confused? could he be more of a 2w3, than a 4w3? on the other hand, we don't know what an ENFJ 4w3 looks like.  it maybe a fictional character


I think you're basing this assumption on the fact that he's helpful. That's an ENFJ thing. The _reason_ an ENFJ is where their Enneagram comes into play. A 2 is helpful to earn emotional currency, adoration, and love. He's helpful because he's an idealist, which is a 4 thing. Add in a strong 3 wing as well as an sx and a 468 tritype (which is what I thought he was... just had the I/E and core Enneatype out of order), and you've got my buddy.

Also, at one point in the video you linked, the girl talks about how she exaggerates and dramatizes. This could certainly be a contributing factor in the OP need to bullshit to entertain, and express creativity. 



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> re: ENFJ energy :tongue:
> 
> 
> * *


Lawls


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> You think this girl is a 2w3? A lot of ENFJs and ESFJs mistype as 2s because they read "likes to help" in the 2 description, and their feeble Ti doesn't really take it any further than that. ENFJs are commonly also 3s, 6s, 7s, and 9s. She doesn't seem to have the 2-ish warmth. She's also clearly on a mission for self exploration and is very much in tune with her Ni. Maybe she's a 4?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you notice the caption underneath the video, the ENFJ girl (Meghan?) self-identifies as a 2w3. I know 2 ENFJ 2w3s irl, both male, both have 2 very distinct sides -- one sassy and somewhat abrasive ("my way or highway", a bit macho -- resembles Se), the other is the irresistibly warm and fuzzy Care Bear side  Come to think of it, both exaggerate and dramatize things quite a bit... neither quite lies though... they lie by omission more; both help people and express feeling under-appreciated when at their low points.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> I know 2 ENFJ 2w3s irl, both male, both have 2 very distinct sides -- one sassy and somewhat abrasive ("my way or highway", a bit macho -- resembles Se), the other is the irresistibly warm and fuzzy Care Bear side  Come to think of it, both exaggerate and dramatize things quite a bit... *neither quite lies though*... they lie by omission more; both help people and express feeling under-appreciated when at their low points.


Doesn't that effectively disqualify 2s from those the OP mechanism could apply to?


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Doesn't that effectively disqualify 2s from those the OP mechanism could apply to?


not really, cause both exaggerate dramatically, and the intent is similar, the way it is manifested would vary from one individual to another.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> not really, cause both exaggerate dramatically, and the intent is similar, the way it is manifested would vary from one individual to another.


Looks pretty clear that the culprit is a combination of 3, Fe+Se, and sx in varying order.

2w3 = omission and exaggeration to be lovable
3 = performance and exaggeration to be admirable
4w3 = creativity and exaggeration to be ideal

3 provides the drive to be "more" to increase the energy and exaggerate - to entertain.
Fe+Se provides a drive to express intensity and personal experience.
sx creates a need to connect with others with these stories.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Looks pretty clear that the culprit is a combination of 3, Fe+Se, and sx in varying order.
> 
> 2w3 = omission and exaggeration to be lovable
> 3 = performance and exaggeration to be admirable
> ...


i like this way of looking at it.

2w3 is also doing good to look good, and dramatizing the good it's been doing to look even better.
3 is also feeling naked and worthless if not recognized as looking good
4w3 is seeking to feel recognized and appreciated for being different, unique, special -- the drama helps set them apart and draw the limelight.

here's a little anecdote: my ESFJ 3w2 grandma who has taught me, my mom and uncle all the virtues of type 2 as "axioms" to live by... such as always help and accomodate people even if it's inconvenient for you, a guest always gets the best bed in the house, the last piece of food on a plate is cut into as many pieces as there are people at the table and shared equally between all etc, and many others in the same vein.... is incidentally convinced that parents should never praise their children. why? cause every child knows that the parents love them, and it's _the strangers_ whose praise you must earn.

If that's not 3w2, I don't know what is... and in earning that praise, the ends justify the means lol... within the limits of being a "nice, charitable person" of course... so as you can imagine, exaggeration, "extreme suffering", passive-aggression, making stuff up if need be, white lies, guilt-tripping... all those lovely things are not at all off limits in order to "earn the praise of others" and thus be validated by your own loved ones... makes my blood boil, every single time. :angry:

Classic clan mentality is Fe-dom 2w3 or 3w2, where everyone knows everything about each other, there is no privacy, there are constant ego tensions and clashes that cannot erupt on or above the surface, so the drama persists under the table, so to speak.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> 4w3 is seeking to feel recognized and appreciated for being different, unique, special -- the drama helps set them apart and draw the limelight.


Winner ^



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> ... makes my blood boil, every single time. :angry:
> 
> Classic clan mentality is Fe-dom


Sounds like your Fi really doesn't mesh well with Fe. ;-)


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Winner ^
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like your Fi really doesn't mesh well with Fe. ;-)


I've internalized a lot of Fe stuff, and I do have a 2 in my tritype, but yeah... I tend to upset strong Fe users cause I can't deal with the whole under-the-table graceful conflict/competition thing... i pretty much expose the game (Fi/Te), which makes Fe users cringe and hate me for breaking "harmony" 

TJs are easier for me to get along with than FJs, except NFJs, cause they are too damn good at diplomacy, we always find common ground


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Winner ^


Cool!  Sounds like your buddy was right and you have a direction now.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Looks pretty clear that the culprit is a combination of 3, Fe+Se, and sx in varying order.
> 
> 2w3 = omission and exaggeration to be lovable
> 3 = performance and exaggeration to be admirable
> ...


by the way is your buddy an SX-dom? SO-dominance could definitely be an additional factor here as well. connection vs earning social status, you know?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> by the way is your buddy an SX-dom? SO-dominance could definitely be an additional factor here as well. connection vs earning social status, you know?


He's SX/SO


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Cool!  Sounds like your buddy was right and you have a direction now.


Maybe it's my Ti, but I love figuring out how the sum of different parts make distinct wholes that wouldn't necessarily reflex the parts. This seems to have been one of those instances. Thanks for your help.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> He's SX/SO


haha... lol, no way around it then... uh-oh Mr. Charisma, I do not envy the women in his life


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Maybe it's my Ti, but I love figuring out how the sum of different parts make distinct wholes that wouldn't necessarily reflex the parts. This seems to have been one of those instances. Thanks for your help.


I think you are right, it might be your Ti  and your Fe interest in people. 
It's been fun for me, thanks for sharing your thought process, I don't have Ti and love seeing it at work!


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> haha... lol, no way around it then... uh-oh Mr. Charisma, I do not envy the women in his life


Me either. He can melt your heart with a smile, win you over by being awesome, keep you entertained and laughing...

... but is too nice and damaged to make a move, then if you really get to know him his clingy sullen side comes out, and he always pulls away at the first hint of rejection.

ugh.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Me either. He can melt your heart with a smile, win you over by being awesome, keep you entertained and laughing...
> 
> ... but is too nice and damaged to make a move, then if you really get to know him his clingy sullen side comes out, and he always pulls away at the first hint of rejection.
> 
> ugh.


sometimes it's not rejection that they fear so much, but rather a threat to their independence... and you'd never know that's been the case, until one of those drunken, sullen, clingy moments happens, lol  ENFJs are tough, but in my experience, they do respond well to innocence, room to roam, and good will.

@_Nobleheart_
another good one is the need to be free and possessiveness! 

I had a female ENFJ friend, who was dating an ISTP (whom she later married), but the ISTP was extremely independent, he never explained himself, never apologized, rarely provided an emotional reaction to anything... extremely hard to read... and once he disappeared for 2 days or so (they were still at the beginning dating stages) ... she went NUTS!! pacing around the house, and it's not that she was worried about _his_ well-being... she was worried about where the hell he was and why the hell he didn't call. At one point she seriously contemplated hiding a tracking device in his car. 

ENFJ either Sx/So or So/Sx. not sure the enneagram... she was pretty fierce, always got what she wanted  could be an 8... hmmm.... could it be the 8 then? but even the 2w3 ones are possessive, while flirting with everything that moves of course


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

I dunno... realizing he's a 4 is a huge paradigm shift, and puts everything about him in a different light. Oddly, it makes everything line up. The mysterious, clingy, withdrawing, push and pull, idealistic, fussy, creative, fantasy world elements to him that never really made sense with how he is when he's 'on' and especially not with what he's capable of. 



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> sometimes it's not rejection that they fear so much, but rather a threat to their independence... and you'd never know that's been the case, until one of those drunken, sullen, clingy moments happens, lol


Why not both?



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> ENFJs are tough, but in my experience, they do respond well to innocence, room to roam, and good will.


Might be the most accurate description of ENFJ ever. ^

It's my personal opinion that a lot of ESFJs mistype as ENFJs simply because of the way the tests tend to word S/N questions as whether or not someone is intelligent. Something like 14% of the population are ESFJs, and only 2% are ENFJs. If a quarter of the ESFJs mistyped as ENFJs, that would actually be more people than all the ENFJs combined.

This has likely led to a lot of mis-attribution of ESFJ traits to ENFJs, and is therefore missing the Ni+Se core that makes them so P-like on a lot of levels. They lack all of those Si/Ne traits, and have replaced them with SP.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> @_Nobleheart_
> another good one is the need to be free and *possessiveness*!
> 
> ENFJ either Sx/So or So/Sx. not sure the enneagram... she was pretty fierce, always got what she wanted  could be an 8... hmmm.... could it be the 8 then? but even the 2w3 ones are possessive, while flirting with everything that moves of course


I think you're describing 8 (or really unhealthy 2) here. A healthy 2 would have found a way to charming him into letting her go with him. 8s have a need to 'own' their significant other like a possession and manage them.

In contrast, my buddy has been dumped from every relationship - or at least that's his version of it and now I can see this as a very 4 element, even if it is true - and is often too passive when his relationships start to fail, and especially too trusting with the people he dates, giving them the freedom to cheat and leave him... or never really get in a relationship in the first place.

Though, I have to admit that the ENFJs that I know have this 'bonding' thing going. They worry about and dote on their partners with a degree of connectivity that I've not seen in other types - meanwhile taking for granted their own right to autonomy and whimsical wandering about in life and decisions.


----------



## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

@_Nobleheart_



> Why not both?


hehe... true.





> It's my personal opinion that a lot of ESFJs mistype as ENFJs simply because of the way the tests tend to word S/N questions as whether or not someone is intelligent. Something like 14% of the population are ESFJs, and only 2% are ENFJs. If a quarter of the ESFJs mistyped as ENFJs, that would actually be more people than all the ENFJs combined.
> 
> This has likely led to a lot of mis-attribution of ESFJ traits to ENFJs, and is therefore missing the Ni+Se core that makes them so P-like on a lot of levels. They lack all of those Si/Ne traits, and have replaced them with SP.


Yessss! ENFJs do have that SP-ish energy, that's why I often type as ENFJ on tests... having internalized a lot of Fe growing up makes it even more confusing, and I very much relate to the ENFJ girl in the video... however the failed undercover diplomacy thing and the Fi moralizing, Te compartamentalizing and the live-and-let-live mentality is hardly compatible with Fe-dominance... so probably not an ENFJ  I do connect best with strong Ni and Ne users though, so there has to be an N component there... hence the less than satisfying conclusion that I am likely an unlikely ESFP, with developed Ni, internalized Ne and Fe...



> I think you're describing 8 (or really unhealthy 2) here. A healthy 2 would have found a way to charming him into letting her go with him. 8s have a need to 'own' their significant other like a possession and manage them.


not an ISTP spoilt brat, at the very beginning of the relationship though.  Later on she made my jaw drop and stick to the floor in the following exchange.

ENFJ to ISTP: "Could you please take out the trash?"

ISTP: *nods once*

10 minutes later, ISTP still reading something...

ENFJ to ISTP: "When I ask you to do something, I expect it to get done"

ISTP: "..."

me, witnessing the whole thing ---> :shocked: :exterminate:

she was definitely an ENFJ  clearly not very diplomatic though... 
come to think of it, what _does _ENFJ diplomacy look like? 
it's got to have that SP forcefulness + Ni straight to the core understanding, no? 





> In contrast, my buddy has been dumped from every relationship - or at least that's his version of it and now I can see this as a very 4 element, even if it is true - and is often too passive when his relationships start to fail, and especially too trusting with the people he dates, giving them the freedom to cheat and leave him... or never really get in a relationship in the first place.


the passiveness and "leaving freedom to cheat" might be a cop-out, making his partners the culprits and villains who cause things to end, while _he_ is the one who _actually wants_ things ended? this way he is the good guy, the victim -- gets all the sympathy and drama, while evading the burden of having to initiate conflict? A 4w3 feeler wet dream, no? 




> Though, I have to admit that the ENFJs that I know have this 'bonding' thing going. They worry about and dote on their partners with a degree of connectivity that I've not seen in other types - meanwhile taking for granted their own right to autonomy and whimsical wandering about in life and decisions.


yeah, that's the side I was thinking of


----------



## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> the less than satisfying conclusion that I am likely an unlikely ESFP, with developed Ni, internalized Ne and Fe...


It should be pretty easy to distinguish between Ne dom and Se dom... but admittedly, I have a friend who thinks she's an ENFP, and I agreed with her assessment for a long time (again, making the mistake that N = smart), but it's becoming increasingly clear that she's an ESFP. Deltas and Gammas have completely different energy. ESFPs are so much better at navigating the world in real time than ENFPs. They have this primal sensuality that ENFPs replace with quirkiness and a need for unrelated tangents. 

If you're an ESFP, it's highly possible to have a well developed inferior function (Ni). My ENFJ buddy has amazing Ti (which is why I thought he was an INFJ). He can figure out how anything works, and is a computer programmer on top of a bunch of other handyman stuff. He beats our ENTJ friend at chess. Do you vibe like Mila Klunis? She's a solid example of Fi/Te + Se/Ni.

If you're an ENFP, you could also have a solid grasp of Ni as a shadow function, and it's possible that you're confusing being active with Se. The simplest litmus is this: Does your brain frequently flood you with possibilities... like once every few seconds... or are you part of the present in a clear minded way?



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> she was definitely an ENFJ  clearly not very diplomatic though...


Sounds like classic 8 bullshit. Demanding others do things they could do themselves if they wanted it done so damned bad. Add in some Fe 'should' in the form of 'it's the man's job to do X', and you have a recipe for "I don't know how the ISTP put up with it".



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> come to think of it, what _does _ENFJ diplomacy look like?










FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> it's got to have that SP forcefulness + Ni straight to the core understanding, no?


 Yup, it's a much more real world, unpretentious direct form of Fe's desire to connect, and then leverage with agreement.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> the passiveness and "leaving freedom to cheat" might be a cop-out, making his partners the culprits and villains who cause things to end, while _he_ is the one who _actually wants_ things ended? this way he is the good guy, the victim -- gets all the sympathy and drama, while evading the burden of having to initiate conflict? A 4w3 feeler wet dream, no?


I dunno. He seems fairly oblivious to his own hand in things, but I know a lot of the people he's dated, and the consensus is that it's nothing they can really put their finger on. It's like once he gets in a relationship, he forgets how to 'man'. But, you're right, he does hate conflict, and the thing I see operating the most in his relationships is being conflict averse. It's like he's scared to upset anyone unless he's pushed to the point of being done. He's all or nothing when it comes to conflict, and it's confusing for the people he dates. He will either let women push him or he will just walk away. He knows how to take charge, he just doesn't want to, and I think he's under the impression that he shouldn't have to... like somehow relationships just magically work with minimal effort because people love each other.

ENFJ + 4 makes for a serious amount of internal conflict... wanting to connect but feeling unable.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> It should be pretty easy to distinguish between Ne dom and Se dom... but admittedly, I have a friend who thinks she's an ENFP, and I agreed with her assessment for a long time (again, making the mistake that N = smart), but it's becoming increasingly clear that she's an ESFP. Deltas and Gammas have completely different energy. ESFPs are so much better at navigating the world in real time than ENFPs. They have this primal sensuality that ENFPs replace with quirkiness and a need for unrelated tangents.
> 
> If you're an ESFP, it's highly possible to have a well developed inferior function (Ni). My ENFJ buddy has amazing Ti (which is why I thought he was an INFJ). He can figure out how anything works, and is a computer programmer on top of a bunch of other handyman stuff. He beats our ENTJ friend at chess. Do you vibe like Mila Klunis? She's a solid example of Fi/Te + Se/Ni.
> 
> If you're an ENFP, you could also have a solid grasp of Ni as a shadow function, and it's possible that you're confusing being active with Se. The simplest litmus is this: Does your brain frequently flood you with possibilities... like once every few seconds... or are you part of the present in a clear minded way?


Mila Kunis -- your fellow Ukranian, huh?  Have you seen her defend Justin Timberlake in Russian? pretty cute...  No, I am not like Mila... more like these two... most like Kate actually... now is Kate ESFP or ENFJ?






and my mind is more outside of time and space kind of a place, i am terrible at history for example, cause everything exists together on the same plane for me.. not necessarily in the now, but kind of floating together on the same plane... hard to explain... possibilities? sure, sometimes, not constantly though... very present and aware of my physical environment? also sometimes, not by default... I can miss a familiar person walking up to me on the street, or i can recognize someone far away by the shape of their body and the subtle mannerisms in the way they move, if i happen to be focused on my surroundings... it's inconsistent.



> Sounds like classic 8 bullshit. Demanding others do things they could do themselves if they wanted it done so damned bad. Add in some Fe 'should' in the form of 'it's the man's job to do X', and you have a recipe for "I don't know how the ISTP put up with it".


haha... yeah, she was probably an 8, and a lawyer, and a stunner, lol... that poor ISTP. Maybe he secretly likes "taming the wild beast", maybe he enjoys the boundaries... they've been together for over 10 years now 



> *Yup, it's a much more real world, unpretentious direct form of Fe's desire to connect, and then leverage with agreement.*


see? i can relate to that as well!! :| grrr.... 
and Franco is not being a diplomat here, he's just schmoozing 





> I dunno. He seems fairly oblivious to his own hand in things, but I know a lot of the people he's dated, and the consensus is that it's nothing they can really put their finger on. It's like once he gets in a relationship, he forgets how to 'man'. But, you're right, he does hate conflict, and the thing I see operating the most in his relationships is being conflict averse. It's like he's scared to upset anyone unless he's pushed to the point of being done. He's all or nothing when it comes to conflict, and it's confusing for the people he dates. He will either let women push him or he will just walk away. He knows how to take charge, he just doesn't want to, and I think he's under the impression that he shouldn't have to... like somehow relationships just magically work with minimal effort because people love each other.
> 
> ENFJ + 4 makes for a serious amount of internal conflict... wanting to connect but feeling unable.


hm... is there an E-9 somewhere in his tritype? Type 9s tend to do all or nothing... tolerating until breaking point, unless in a safe, trusting, established relationship, not evaluating anymore, not keeping distance to protect themselves...


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Mila Kunis -- your fellow Ukranian, huh?


Stalker.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Have you seen her defend Justin Timberlake in Russian? pretty cute...


Nyet.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> No, I am not like Mila... more like these two... most like Kate actually... now is Kate ESFP or ENFJ?


Kate is a clear Fi/Te user. She's also a clear Se/Ni user. Could be anything from ENTJ to ISFP. I can only read the function signals.

Meanwhile Leo is a clear Fe/Ti and Se/Ni. Again, could be anything from ESTP to INFJ. I can only read the function signals.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> and my mind is more outside of time and space kind of a place, i am terrible at history for example, cause everything exists together on the same plane for me.. not necessarily in the now, but kind of floating together on the same plane... hard to explain... possibilities? sure, sometimes, not constantly though... very present and aware of my physical environment? also sometimes, not by default... I can miss a familiar person walking up to me on the street, or i can recognize someone far away by the shape of their body and the subtle mannerisms in the way they move, if i happen to be focused on my surroundings... it's inconsistent.


This guy is REALLY hard to listen to, but this is one of the better explanations for how people experience type.








FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> and Franco is not being a diplomat here, he's just schmoozing


There's a difference? ;-)



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> hm... is there an E-9 somewhere in his tritype? Type 9s tend to do all or nothing... tolerating until breaking point, unless in a safe, trusting, established relationship, not evaluating anymore, not keeping distance to protect themselves...


I know what you're talking about with the 9s. I've seen them do it. No, this is a different issue and vibe. It also causes him to not make a move. 9s go with the flow, and he's more of a make things happen. It's like he assumes other people are going to make things happen too. If he thinks people are disloyal, he will get highly offended. If they cross a line, he will doorslam them with a lot of bluster. Again, I thought he was an INFJ CP6 or 8. He's affable, but not flexible like a 9.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Stalker.
> 
> 
> 
> Nyet.


teheheee.... :tongue:









> Kate is a clear Fi/Te user. She's also a clear Se/Ni user. Could be anything from ENTJ to ISFP. I can only read the function signals.
> 
> Meanwhile Leo is a clear Fe/Ti and Se/Ni. Again, could be anything from ESTP to INFJ. I can only read the function signals.


Well, my best guess is that they are both ESFPs, to be honest. They are very much alike in their reactions, Leo is just a little smoother 



> This guy is REALLY hard to listen to, but this is one of the better explanations for how people experience type.


will take a look, thanks! 




> There's a difference? ;-)


aha!! diplomacy involves conflict resolution *cough, cough* 




> I know what you're talking about with the 9s. I've seen them do it. No, this is a different issue and vibe. It also causes him to not make a move. 9s go with the flow, and he's more of a make things happen. It's like he assumes other people are going to make things happen too. If he thinks people are disloyal, he will get highly offended. If they cross a line, he will doorslam them with a lot of bluster. Again, I thought he was an INFJ CP6 or 8. He's affable, but not flexible like a 9.


interesting. never seen that before.


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Well, my best guess is that they are both ESFPs, to be honest. They are very much alike in their reactions, Leo is just a little smoother


That's because he's using Fe.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> aha!! diplomacy involves conflict resolution *cough, cough*


Classic Te/Fi focus on the end goal. ^ Diplomacy happens _before_ the resolution. Any good chess player can tell you that the game is won and lost in the first few moves. Fe wins the diplomacy before the negotiations actually begin. By the time they happen, Ti has very little to do but apply a little leverage to the already affable 'other side' because the goal of Fe was to form a values based agreement state. This often comes off as 'fake' to Fi/Te because Fi/Te can't understand the process, as it is too mired in a need for emotional autonomy.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> That's because he's using Fe.


yeah, _fake_ Fe  
i mean "emotional truth"? c'mon, how much more Fi does he have to get to convince you? 





> Classic Te/Fi focus on the end goal. ^ Diplomacy happens _before_ the resolution. Any good chess player can tell you that the game is won and lost in the first few moves. Fe wins the diplomacy before the negotiations actually begin. By the time they happen, Ti has very little to do but apply a little leverage to the already affable 'other side' because the goal of Fe was to form a values based agreement state. This often comes off as 'fake' to Fi/Te because Fi/Te can't understand the process, as it is too mired in a need for emotional autonomy.


 oh yeah? where did i say that it happens _at_ the resolution? wasn't "involves" vague enough to cover my ass?  
I think a good Ni or Ti can tell if the game has been won or lost in the first few moves... don't glorify Fe too much, missy, it barely sets the tone... which may be completely irrelevant if one negotiates with a thinker for instance... it could, however, make or break the outcome if one deals with an _Fe-user _or a little kid! :laughing:


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> yeah, _fake_ Fe
> i mean "emotional truth"? c'mon, how much more Fi does he have to get to convince you?
> 
> oh yeah? where did i say that it happens _at_ the resolution? wasn't "involves" vague enough to cover my ass?
> I think a good Ni or Ti can tell if the game has been won or lost in the first few moves... don't glorify Fe too much, missy, it barely sets the tone... which may be completely irrelevant if one negotiates with a thinker for instance... it could, however, make or break the outcome if one deals with an _Fe-user _or a little kid! :laughing:


You're clearly not an Fe dom. ;-) You can rule that out.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> You're clearly not an Fe dom. ;-) You can rule that out.


or a self-loathing Fe-dom?


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> or a self-loathing Fe-dom?


That doesn't happen. Fe is attracted to Fe because it seeks consensus. Even when Fe users clash, they don't have issue with the other using Fe. They clash because they can't get the other to agree, but are using the same tactics. It simply becomes a stand off.

Your loathing of Fe is a perfect example of the Fi _interpretation_ of Fe. 

Watch the video I linked. It should clear things up for you.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> That doesn't happen. Fe is attracted to Fe because it seeks consensus. Even when Fe users clash, they don't have issue with the other using Fe. They clash because they can't get the other to agree, but are using the same tactics. It simply becomes a stand off.
> 
> Your loathing of Fe is a perfect example of the Fi _interpretation_ of Fe.
> 
> Watch the video I linked. It should clear things up for you.


Fine  I don't disagree with you, and I started the video, it's so damn monotonous, as all of his videos are... it will take me some time to finish watching it.

P.S.: Fi can also be attracted to Fe, cause Fe is warm and fuzzy, when not too overpowering, especially when Fi values happen to coincide with Fe standards. For instance a type 2 Fi can easily get aligned with an Fe-dom. 

P.P.S: Fi seeks consensus too, except it calls consensus "feeling understood"


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> Fine  I don't disagree with you, and I started the video, it's so damn monotonous, as all of his videos are... it will take me some time to finish watching it.


Yeah, it's awful. But, the info is good.



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> P.S.: Fi can also be attracted to Fe, cause Fe is warm and fuzzy, when not too overpowering, especially when Fi values happen to coincide with Fe standards. For instance a type 2 Fi can easily get aligned with an Fe-dom.


Nah, it all depends on how the Fe is making you feel. If it makes you feel good, then it's awesome. If it makes you feel pressured, it's the worstthingeverOMFG~



FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> P.P.S: Fi seeks consensus too, except it calls consensus "feeling understood"


That's not even close to consensus. That's just acknowledgement. Consensus is when everyone agrees. Fi is patently resistant to values based consensus.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> Yeah, it's awful. But, the info is good.


agreed.



> Nah, it all depends on how the Fe is making you feel. If it makes you feel good, then it's awesome. If it makes you feel pressured, it's the worstthingeverOMFG~


lol, sure....but that's universal... Fi can make Fe feel pressured, Fe can make Fe feel pressured.... nobody _likes_ to feel pressured.




> That's not even close to consensus. That's just acknowledgement. Consensus is when everyone agrees. Fi is patently resistant to values based consensus.


 not true, or i am an Fe user


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## Nobleheart (Jun 9, 2010)

FluffyTheAnarchist said:


> lol, sure....but that's universal... Fi can make Fe feel pressured, Fe can make Fe feel pressured.... nobody _likes_ to feel pressured.


The threshold for what constitutes pressured varies greatly between Fe and Fi. Fe operates in an assumption that emotional consensus will be achieved, and moves toward it. Even when Fe users disagree on a values level, they 'get it', and understand how and why the other is operating the way they do, so that's not offensive to them like it is Fi users.

But, we've derailed the hell out of this thread. If that monotonous video doesn't help you decide upon your function set, I got nothin'.


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## FluffyTheAnarchist (Sep 9, 2013)

Nobleheart said:


> The threshold for what constitutes pressured varies greatly between Fe and Fi. Fe operates in an assumption that emotional consensus will be achieved, and moves toward it. Even when Fe users disagree on a values level, they 'get it', and understand how and why the other is operating the way they do, so that's not offensive to them like it is Fi users.
> 
> But, we've derailed the hell out of this thread. If that monotonous video doesn't help you decide upon your function set, I got nothin'.


the thread has exhausted itself a while ago  we are just chatting now. feel free to close it, if you like


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