# The Bitter "Nice Guy."



## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

> Why I was never a bitter nice guy
> May 20th, 2008
> I’ve met my fair share of bitter “nice guys,” but I’ve never been one of them. I’m a nice guy; I’m just not a bitter nice guy or ex-nice guy. You know whom I’m talking about: the guy who seems nice, fawns all over some girl he likes who happens to like jerks herself, and then when she doesn’t return his affections and says she thinks of him only as a friend, he gets all bitter about it and whines about how girls like only jerks. Eventually, he decides to be a jerk himself so he can get more girls.
> 
> ...


Source: Ubuntucat » Blog Archive » Why I was never a bitter nice guy

I agree with a lot of what he said here. He was also careful with his wording, so that he didn't make too sweeping a generalization, when he said "many" women prefer.

Anyway, I particularly enjoy the point about just being who you are, to attract who you should be with.

I personally find the acts people put on after a few failures, to be vile. Shouldn't people know what they are signing on for, -really-.

I was inspired to post this after a thread I read the other day where yet another guy was talking about the woes of being a "nice guy."

I have seen many of them turn manipulative. Perhaps they don't need to. : )


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

> On a similar note, a lot of women enjoy a challenge. They can sometimes view boyfriends as a makeover project, and if the guy is a jerk, all the more to make over. If the guy appears too much of a nice guy, she might worry that she’s the one who’s the makeover project for the guy.


The fuck am I reading?


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## LittleHawk (Feb 15, 2011)

I think that bit *is* worded a little badly and the word _challenge_ may be a little more fitting than make-over. And in that case, I think it's true.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

They're all very excellent points. I can't say I've found anything in the OP that particularly struck me as "incorrect."


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Erbse said:


> The fuck am I reading?


A project to refine someone who is rough around the edges. And I will say that I have seen both men and women take on a diamond in the rough.. a fixer upper. Some people simply enjoy doing this. A rude and crude person can be seen as someone to refine, sure.. I have had a few jackasses attempt to put me through charm school - not literally.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Promethea said:


> You were always an asshole—you’re just now finally owning up to it.


My God, so this whole time when guys are nice and have a sudden change of heart, they really were just assholes all along, makes total sense...... 
 I mean, I drank orange juice for a few weeks then switched to cranberry, and in reality I was a cranberry guy all along, but then I switched to apple juice when that bitter after taste got to me, except it contained arsenic so I decided to go grapefruit except it was too sweet and have then switched back to orange juice.....



Promethea said:


> Jerks create drama, and (for a time at least) drama can be fun, particularly if you can share it with your girlfriends and have them commiserate in turn.


.................. Sticking a hot-poker where the sun don’t shine is so.... exfoliating.



Promethea said:


> The more of a jerk he is, the more a martyr she looks like.


Well, gotta start building a cross for women to carry.


Promethea said:


> He was also careful with his wording, so that he didn't make too sweeping a generalization





Promethea said:


> On a very basic level, the media portrays the “bad boy” as exciting. You want to be with the hunky guy, not stuck with Ducky.


I mean all body builders that happen to be guys are jerks, didn’t you know that Promethea? None of them are decent human beings that just want to be in shape for health sake...



Promethea said:


> may have game-like elements to them, but they are not games.


My feces have feature like elements that make it feces, but they’re not feces, it’s poop....

Bottom line, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is stupid, insane, lazy even.

The point is there is no real answer to what works some things just do and it’s not a polarized discussion of jerk to nice, over simplification at its best.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

@Erbse

A lot of immature women like to play Mrs. Fix-it. They want to tame the untamable. It's like a project... true story.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Thomas D M Thompson said:


> My God, so this whole time when guys are nice and have a sudden change of heart, they really were just assholes all along, makes total sense......
> I mean, I drank orange juice for a few weeks then switched to cranberry, and in reality I was a cranberry guy all along, but then I switched to apple juice when that bitter after taste got to me, except it contained arsenic so I decided to go grapefruit except it was too sweet and have then switched back to orange juice.....
> 
> 
> ...


Its specifically about guys who are naturally one way, then become bitter when it doesn't get particular results.


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## Thomas D M Thompson (Sep 14, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Its specifically about guys who are naturally one way, then become bitter when it doesn't get particular results.


Then I retract my first point, but the rest still stands.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

While this may be true in some cases, I know plenty of genuinely nice guys turned bitter because of bad experiences. Realizing that you may never be able to find love will do that to you. And desperation can lead people to some pretty bad decisions.

So just because someone decides they're going to act like a jerk out of desperation, doesn't necessarily mean that they were a jerk to begin with. It could simply mean that they're just a really desperate and frustrated 'nice guy'.

In fact, women can usually smell that desperation from miles away; which is why this sort of thing rarely works anyway.


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## Cover3 (Feb 2, 2011)

> The more you play games, the more you will also be played.


not terribly accurate


but other than that the article was decent.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

By the way, I know women who are just as guilty of this. If they don't get their way through being nice, sweet, and giving google eyes, then they start treating the man like shit. I know plenty of women who act up when they don't get the result they want. They're such brats, lol. Not that I don't know how frustrating it is not to get what I want most, but damn... x) In the meantime the guy's pretty much clueless... kinda like, "WTF?! Period raaage?!" xD


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Promethea said:


> Its specifically about guys who are naturally one way, then become bitter when it doesn't get particular results.


Usually this happens with nice guys who get their hearts broken. They find it difficult to believe its not always about them, who they are or what part they played in the relationship. Its been my experience that none of the above apply. Women can have a change of heart also , especially if they feel/think that it's not working because of something they can't give. Therefore leaving the man feeingl like they didn't step up their end of the deal, where in reality it had nothing to do with him. Man remains bitter at women for knowing herself better than he knew her.


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## GoodOldDreamer (Sep 8, 2011)

Just from personal observations over the years, having befriended many a female, a lot of the "perks" of being with "jerks" tend to backfire as time goes on. Notice how in the line "Jerks create drama..." that "for a time, at least" is included? Yeah. That's because the drama they create tends to get old after awhile, or so I've been told.

And we really shouldn't even get started into the whole "I can change him" fiasco that so many women end up in abusive relationships because of. >_>

This OP article, and so many others out there, send so many wrong signals. It's... disturbing, to say the least. I do agree with the final bit that you should be yourself. But most of the middle crap is ridiculous. Thanks for the needless list of reasons why one gender mistakenly goes for the worst of the other and tries to justify it. Where's the other now? The list justifying why "many men" continuously go after the high maintenance, cold and manipulative witches who are only out for their money/status/insert-superficial-dehumanizing-thing here?

You know, the one about those who chase after Kim Kardashian and her ilk. P


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Heh, my dad was (still is, in literal terms) the typical bitter nice guy and I vowed never to end up like him.

I'm more of an omega male who has a few alpha qualities. Human interaction in general is one of my major weak spots, and I'm trying to be more assertive, although it's a thin line, and sometimes I end up coming across as more jerkish than confident. One thing to know: It's not for the girls, but for myself. I'll talk, they might mistake it for flirting, but I'm really just practicing to become a better person.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

WamphyriThrall said:


> Heh, my dad was (still is, in literal terms) the typical bitter nice guy and I vowed never to end up like him.
> 
> I'm more of an omega male who has a few alpha qualities. Human interaction in general is one of my major weak spots, and I'm trying to be more assertive, although it's a thin line, and sometimes I end up coming across as more jerkish than confident. One thing to know: It's not for the girls, but for myself. I'll talk, they might mistake it for flirting, but I'm really just practicing to become a better person.


An INTJ who wants to be a better person? *clears throat* hehe... hi


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## Surreal Snake (Nov 17, 2009)

I think a lot of people have been bitter at one time or another in their lives(in relationships).I know i have been.These people usually blame others for it when in reality it was their own choice to be this way.It's always easier to blame someone else.


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## dalsgaard (Aug 14, 2010)

While I know many guys who are genuinely nice turned bitter, I'm probably of another category.

I used to be overly nice, then I turned asshole out of desperation - and for some reason it worked. So I went through a period of my life where I was horribly sweet, and didn't get laid at all; then I turned jerk and got laid, and then I just gave it all up because when you reach a certain age you think: "What the hell, fuck it. It's too damn exhausting to be anyone but yourself".

Now I have a girl who actually likes me for who I am. How weird is that? She's just as fucked up as I am. Luckily, the world has so many fucked up people, that no matter how fucked up you are, there's always someone out there who is just as fucked up as you.

Turns out women are just as crazy as men are. If I had to give all the nice guys some advice, I'd tell them: "Don't worry. Your time will come". But that's what they get told all the time, and they refuse to believe it. No matter.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Mutual respect and openness. It boils down to that. Those are the essentials. 

Everything else - nice boobs; religion; cool car; education level; hobbies; eye color; sense of humor - all of those are variable based upon subjective taste or needs. And there are of course deal breakers - addiction; mental disorders; disease; etc. 

But mutual respect and openness are the essentials. 

Go into a relationship offering and demanding that, and let the rest unfold. If the other person isn't going to reciprocate, then you've got your answer about them, don't you?


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> And there are of course deal breakers - addiction; mental disorders; disease; etc.


WTF is this?


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> WTF is this?


Plain English.

If you have a specific question, ask it.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

redmanXNTP said:


> Plain English.
> 
> If you have a specific question, ask it.


I have no specific question, but I have a judgment that can be changed if you so wish to explain yourself. 

My judgment is that you are either completely uninformed or that you're just flat out ignorant if you believe people with certain diseases, mental disorders, and/or addictions have no chance at being a compatible and/or good partner. Mind you, also, everyone has addictions... if you want someone with a healthy addiction, I get it, but I find it rather interesting that you seemingly believe that most people don't have an addiction of some sort, and that addictions, in general, are associated as bad. I know plenty of people that are addicted to running... how dare they enjoy it *shakes fist violently in the air*  

What I'm saying is that it is unwise to stereotype people based on extremes you've encountered. Not everyone with an addiction has an unhealthy addiction. Not everyone with a mental illness is crazy or unstable. Not everyone with a disease is going to risk your life or put you in danger. Perhaps you aren't seeing people for who they are, and, if this is the case, you are undoubtedly doing an injustice, not only to those whom you're judging, but also, to yourself. If this is truly the case, and I hope it's not, I believe that you could be missing out on some potentially great things. That would be a shame.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

I think anyone who doesn't have much luck finding a romantic partner and gets rejected on a regular basis has a decent chance of becoming bitter and I don't really blame them. Say for example you are not considered physically attractive by the majority of people, it seems normal to me that you would start having thoughts like "I'm a perfectly _nice_ person, but still, people don't want to date me because of how I look. People are so shallow". To be perfectly honest, I think they are right in many ways, people can be shallow, you can be a perfectly nice person but often that simply isn't enough to get you a date.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Luke said:


> I think anyone who doesn't have much luck finding a romantic partner and gets rejected on a regular basis has a decent chance of becoming bitter and I don't really blame them. Say for example you are not considered physically attractive by the majority of people, it seems normal to me that you would start having thoughts like "I'm a perfectly _nice_ person, but still, people don't want to date me because of how I look. People are so shallow". To be perfectly honest, I think they are right in many ways, people can be shallow, you can be a perfectly nice person but often that simply isn't enough to get you a date.


If the people who reject someone are shallow, etc., then I think the person who changes in order to attract them must lack some amount of dignity. I personally would be turned off if someone thought I wasn't good enough in some way. That would make them very unappealing. There are types of guys who aren't particularly into what type of female I am - they probably want someone more high maintenance and less intelligent, and its like we don't even pay attention to each other. Fine by me. 

I see this bitter nice guy turned jerk thing in movies sometimes, where you see a kind of passive nerdy kid -- but why is he always going after the shallow cheerleader bitch archetype? I have seen it irl too. They are angry that they can't 'get' girls like that, but the problem is that even wanting someone like that is stupid unless you're on that wavelength also. So, I reiterate his point about being who you are, and finding who you belong with.. I have had experiences where me and another person are just so mutually drawn to one another - no stupid pretenses and bullshit that we both have to fake.


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## fractal life (Nov 18, 2010)

Girls go for the "asshole" not because he is an asshole but because he is confident. Someone who is an asshole and happens to have no confidence is several leagues below someone who is a decent guy and has no confidence. Likewise, a confident, assertive, independent guy who also happens to be nice is miles and miles ahead of the confident jerk.

The stuff about girls going for dickheads is such borderline misogyny, and it isn't true really.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> Mutual respect and openness. It boils down to that. Those are the essentials.
> 
> Everything else - nice boobs; religion; cool car; education level; hobbies; eye color; sense of humor - all of those are variable based upon subjective taste or needs. And there are of course deal breakers - addiction; mental disorders; disease; etc.
> 
> ...


"Nice boobs" -- I was hoping this thread could maintain some semblance of class, and intelligence. Think about how some women might view this comment; Great to be reminded that there are still people who will rate us like cuts of beef at a butcher's shop. And I'm sure you have an entire lexicon in order to describe what nice boobs are, in contrast to unnice boobs -- and this is not an invitation to share. I am just in awe that in reading my thread, I saw this in an -actual- answer, and not just as something ironic to make fun of shallow people.


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## Lackjester (Aug 16, 2011)

What about the miserable nice guys that aren't secret assholes, as mentioned by Luke?

Can relationships work solely based only on genuine love and affection? If not, what else is necessary? Why?


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Promethea said:


> If the people who reject someone are shallow, etc., then I think the person who changes in order to attract them must lack some amount of dignity. I personally would be turned off if someone thought I wasn't good enough in some way. That would make them very unappealing. There are types of guys who aren't particularly into what type of female I am - they probably want someone more high maintenance and less intelligent, and its like we don't even pay attention to each other. Fine by me.
> 
> I see this bitter nice guy turned jerk thing in movies sometimes, where you see a kind of passive nerdy kid -- *but why is he always going after the shallow cheerleader bitch archetype?* I have seen it irl too. They are angry that they can't 'get' girls like that, but the problem is that even wanting someone like that is stupid unless you're on that wavelength also. So, I reiterate his point about being who you are, and finding who you belong with.. I have had experiences where me and another person are just so mutually drawn to one another - no stupid pretenses and bullshit that we both have to fake.


Probably because they "scream" the loudest. 

I'm reminded of a group project I had in kindergarten: I was called in the front of the class by the teacher, and was asked to pick a partner; everyone quietly and slowly raised one hand in unison, except one girl. She was the most eager, animated, and loudest person, immediately jumping up and down with both hands, "Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! Please!" Not sure why, but, I immediately did. Not because of intimidation or pressure, but something drew me to her. She stood out among the crowd. I'm guessing it's similar to why a lot of girls go for so-called jerks versus nice guys who stay hidden in the shadows. 

Similarly how the most outspoken individuals of certain groups set the standards to how others view the entire community. Don't forget that the media also portrays how females are "supposed" to be, so a lot of guys probably get a false image of what's worth going after, and of course this also shapes individuals to emulate what they see as successful. I never fell into that trap, thankfully.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

harlEqu1n said:


> What about the miserable nice guys that aren't secret assholes, as mentioned by Luke?
> 
> Can relationships work solely based only on genuine love and affection? If not, what else is necessary? Why?


From what I've observed... if a nice guy can't get a girl, it's probably because he either lacks confidence or self-respect. If a guy's not confident about himself, what is he confident about? No one wants to play the role of mommy or be the daily pick-me-up. If a guy doesn't respect himself, why would he expect others to respect him? Raise your hand if you want your life partner to be a door mat... anyone?


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## Lackjester (Aug 16, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> From what I've observed... if a nice guy can't get a girl, it's probably because he either lacks confidence or self-respect. If a guy's not confident about himself, what is he confident about? No one wants to play the role of mommy or be the daily pick-me-up. If a guy doesn't respect himself, why would he expect others to respect him? Raise your hand if you want your life partner to be a door mat... anyone?


Speaking for myself, I neither lack confidence or self-respect. 

My problem is that, as I don't care about society or the culture I live in, so there's hardly anything I can talk about to keep my loved one "entertained"; and it seems like that's what people want from their relationships: entertainment. :/

My question remains. Is it really possible to hold a healthy relationship solely based on genuine love?


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Whiteraven said:


> I can ATTEST to this all to well I have had my heart shattered recently and i will tell you the secret of the general male psyche...
> 
> When we have that first LOVE, whether it be that first girlfriend or the girl we dream of, and she rejects us after so much repport and value has been established in a romantic relationship we emotionally repress. After that single event when being a real, genuine person has failed to keep the one we truly desire then surely the opposite effect would keep any woman.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that, although try and think of it this way. No two women are alike. You can't compare 1 relationship with another. Not all women will get so attached that men are left feeling pain if the relationship fails. Not all failures are because women feel the man is not good enough, relationships fail because 1 or both didn't feel the same way or 1 or both is not mature enough to handle what comes with being attached. Sure , in a perfect world we wouldn't allow ourselves to become emotionally involved unless we knew with certain that the relationship will be forever, but this isn't a perfect world. Hurt and pain can be a good thing coming from a failed or bad relationship. We can get a better grasp on what we need in order to be content. Perhaps the ideal women for you is still out there, and if you're in a relationship that isn't working- how can this ideal women have a chance at finding you.

The worse thing you can do is change who you are at your core. If you're a nice, loving guy, that will be more important to the right women. Don't resort to becoming that asshole. You could miss out on the best relationship of your life by changing into someone that you're not. We have to kiss a lot a frogs before we meet our Prince/Princess. Think of them as growing experiences, life's lessons. Hardships can make us grow into strong people without changing who we are.

And don't kid yourself. Women are much more interested in nice guys than jerks and bad boys. Although to be fair, a nice guy can show some bad boy behavior too ...nothing rough and tough, just a little play and teasing. Generally over all, i think its a misconception that nice guys finish last. My husband is a nice guy, he may be too reserved and private to be anything else, but the point is, women will appreciate a man who treats her right over a jerk who doesn't. I don't think life has changed drastically in terms of what women want in a man. I think some men over think it, and believe things that aren't true. Be yourself, that is the most important. If you can impress a lady being who you are, the rest is gravy. You never have to worry about your behavior, or try to change into something you're not  Personally i love that about men. Men who can be who they really are. The good, bad and ugly. Women have imperfections too, so we don't expect perfection from a man. And besides, imperfections are the things that attracted me to my husband. He would say the same about me. Chill, that women is waiting for you to cross paths


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

harlEqu1n said:


> Speaking for myself, I neither lack confidence or self-respect.
> 
> The problem is that I don't have much to talk about as I don't care about society; so I can very hardly keep someone "entertained" and it seems like that's what people want from their relationships: entertainment. :/


Maybe look for people like you that treasure peace and aren't much for entertaining or being entertained <3 There's gotta be someone out there.


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## Lackjester (Aug 16, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Maybe look for people like you that treasure peace and aren't much for entertaining or being entertained <3 There's gotta be someone out there.


I'm trying but I honestly have no idea where they could be hiding. :3
<3



Ace Face said:


> Raise your hand if you want your life partner to be a door mat... anyone?


I'd be perfectly fine with a "door mat" that genuinely loved me. *raises hand*


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Girls don't typically want door mats, but I'm sure some are willing to settle if they can't find what they want. 

Good luck on your venture for love :3 I sincerely hope you find that special gal (or guy)


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

Ace Face said:


> From what I've observed... if a nice guy can't get a girl, it's probably because he either lacks confidence or self-respect. If a guy's not confident about himself, what is he confident about? No one wants to play the role of mommy or be the daily pick-me-up. If a guy doesn't respect himself, why would he expect others to respect him? Raise your hand if you want your life partner to be a door mat... anyone?


I think lacking confidence in a certain area doesn't mean that you are a complete door mat and don't respect yourself at all. He could just be shy about talking to women, but completely kick ass academically and be entirely confident of his abilities in that area. You can't generalise someones complete character based off how they behave in one situation. Not mention some people just take a little bit longer to come out of their shells, once you get to know them better you begin to realise that they are actually quite confident in themselves.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Luke said:


> I think lacking confidence in a certain area doesn't mean that you are a complete door mat and don't respect yourself at all. He could just be shy about talking to women, but completely kick ass academically and be entirely confident of his abilities in that area. You can't generalise someones complete character based off how they behave in one situation. Not mention some people just take a little bit longer to come out of their shells, once you get to know them better you begin to realise that they are actually quite confident in themselves. They are just a little bit shy to begin with, which is something I find to be quite an endearing quality.


Absolutely true. I don't judge anybody based off of how they act in one situation, though, I'm sure some girls do. I like to stick around for a while to observe behaviors. I look for patterns


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## Lackjester (Aug 16, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> Girls don't typically want door mats, but I'm sure some are willing to settle if they can't find what they want.


That's common sense. No one is denying people's right to look for their best possible mate.

Still, wouldn't it be better for most (if not all) women to date someone quiet and honest over someone fun but dishonest? 

Shouldn't people value love over entertainment?
Is empathy worth less than confidence? 
Are communication skills and fun more important than intelligence and honesty?



Ace Face said:


> Good luck on your venture for love :3 I sincerely hope you find that special gal (or guy)


Thanks! Haha, I'm straight.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

> Still, wouldn't it be better for most (if not all) women to date someone quiet and honest over someone fun but dishonest?


That's what I would want, but unfortunately, not all women really care. Well, the more likely possibility is that women want to believe the fun guy is also an honest guy, and they may even hold onto that guy and be in denial. Everyone wants to believe that they've found what they want.


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## Lackjester (Aug 16, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> That's what I would want, but unfortunately, not all women really care. Well, the more likely possibility is that women want to believe the fun guy is also an honest guy, and they may even hold onto that guy and be in denial. Everyone wants to believe that they've found what they want.


Well, we both seem to agree. There's not much more to add...

I just wish people would realize that if they truly were happy and confident in themselves, they'd be busy with their lives and wouldn't need someone to entertain or take care of them. Besides, isn't that the definition of dependency? :|


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

harlEqu1n said:


> Shouldn't people value love over entertainment?
> Is empathy worth less than confidence?
> Are communication skills and fun more important than intelligence and honesty?


The ideal relationship is having it all. Entertainment and love. Someone who has empathy and confidence. Communication skills are vital in a relationship, so there is no compromising in that department. Although again ideally being able to communicate with intelligence and honestly is the best kind of relationship. And believe it or not, there are people out there who have all of these things, its not impossible. People can be quite diverse and have it all. Personal standards will get you everything you want if you want it bad enough.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

fourtines said:


> Okay now you've completely lost me.
> 
> Pretty sure there's worse victims in society than nerdy dudes, unless you're only talking about financially stable, bored middle-class people with full health coverage and college degrees.


Nice Guy != nerdy dudes. "Nice Guy Syndrome" however is a byproduct of today's society and how people (or more precisely men) are brought up.


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## Duck_of_Death (Jan 21, 2011)

fourtines said:


> Okay now you've completely lost me.


Then get lost.



> Pretty sure there's worse victims in society than nerdy dudes, unless you're only talking about financially stable, bored middle-class people with full health coverage and college degrees.


And of course you view all "nice guys" as "nerds". This is what I was talking about in another post where I noted they are reduced to caricatures..

The difference between "nice guys" and "victims" is that the former is often a result of circumstance(s). Most so-called "victims" shoot themselves in the foot and cry like attention-starved babies over the blowback.

Fuck 'em. 

The only thing they're a victim of is their own ego.
They deserve every bad thing that happens to them.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Erbse said:


> That's no basis for a healthy relationship, period - hence it got absolutely nothing to do in an article that tries to explains as to why being a "bitter nice guy" is bad, matter of fact that line undermines about anything the author seemingly magically figured out for himself, as it shows a clear lack of understanding and depth of his own thesis.
> 
> Suggesting to stop being the "bitter nice guy" but be an asshat instead to get a chick who wants to fix you is just wrong on so many levels I wouldn't even know where to start. Plus nice guys are likely to be in need of tighter fixing an asshat ever would.
> 
> ...


I really don't know whats so difficult to understand here. He was suggesting some reasons why some women might date jerks. I personally found this guys article easy to read.

Hes not saying thats any basis for a healthy relationship at all.

Its ironic that you're saying the author is the one who doesn't have a clear understanding here. And why is the author an "asshat" for simply being himself? I think it shows strength and integrity to not give into societal pressures that way. The guy who becomes a bitter tryhard after not getting laid is the asshat in my opinion.

I'm amazed that I have had to nearly outline this simple article in order for someone to understand it.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Promethea said:


> I really don't know whats so difficult to understand here. He was suggesting some reasons why some women might date jerks. I personally found this guys article easy to read.
> 
> Hes not saying thats any basis for a healthy relationship at all.
> 
> ...


You didn't even understand the post you've just replied to, so I'm not entirely surprised you find that article easy to read and don't spot the holes in it.

That however isn't, nor should be, substance of this thread.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Erbse said:


> You didn't even understand the post you've just replied to, so I'm not entirely surprised you find that article easy to read and don't spot the holes in it.
> 
> That however isn't, nor should be, substance of this thread.


Every time I deal with you in a thread you end up saying something along these lines, probably because you *troll* my threads. It doesn't matter what I say in response to you, you say something contrary and utterly pointless, and claim that I didn't understand you just so you can create more tension in my threads. So yeah buddy, the problem for you is that I understand perfectly. Now if you have something to say with substance, reply to me.. but if you're just going to consistently miss points, and act like anything you don't understand is stupid, in order to make a mess in a thread - then don't bother pulling me into that nonsense. 

I am not going to waste my breath explaining the article to you again. Go to his site and find a way to get in touch with him, because I am not interested in getting trolled by you on this forum anymore.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Every time I deal with you in a thread you end up saying something along these lines, probably because you *troll* my threads. It doesn't matter what I say in response to you, you say something contrary and utterly pointless, and claim that I didn't understand you just so you can create more tension in my threads. So yeah buddy, the problem for you is that I understand perfectly. Now if you have something to say with substance, reply to me.. but if you're just going to consistently miss points, and act like anything you don't understand is stupid, in order to make a mess in a thread - then don't bother pulling me into that nonsense.
> 
> I am not going to waste my breath explaining the article to you again. Go to his site and find a way to get in touch with him, because I am not interested in getting trolled by you on this forum anymore.


Have I not said it isn't and shouldn't be substance of this thread?

Oh yes. I have.

I wonder why.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

Erbse said:


> Have I not said it isn't and shouldn't be substance of this thread?
> 
> Oh yes. I have.
> 
> I wonder why.


Are you quite done, and have it all out of your system? I want to re-rail this thread eventually.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

Promethea said:


> Are you quite done, and have it all out of your system? I want to re-rail this thread eventually.


Go right ahead, I told you not to derail it in the first place, after all. :mellow:


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Ace Face said:


> I have no specific question, but I have a judgment that can be changed if you so wish to explain yourself.
> 
> My judgment is that you are either completely uninformed or that you're just flat out ignorant if you believe people with certain diseases, mental disorders, and/or addictions have no chance at being a compatible and/or good partner. Mind you, also, everyone has addictions... if you want someone with a healthy addiction, I get it, but I find it rather interesting that you seemingly believe that most people don't have an addiction of some sort, and that addictions, in general, are associated as bad. I know plenty of people that are addicted to running... how dare they enjoy it *shakes fist violently in the air*
> 
> What I'm saying is that it is unwise to stereotype people based on extremes you've encountered. Not everyone with an addiction has an unhealthy addiction. Not everyone with a mental illness is crazy or unstable. Not everyone with a disease is going to risk your life or put you in danger. Perhaps you aren't seeing people for who they are, and, if this is the case, you are undoubtedly doing an injustice, not only to those whom you're judging, but also, to yourself. If this is truly the case, and I hope it's not, I believe that you could be missing out on some potentially great things. That would be a shame.


Thanks for clarifying. 

You're adding words and statements to my post which weren't there. I other words your lecture is a big straw man. 

I referred to deal breakers. I also said that they are subjective. Do you know what that word means? It means that your definition of what a deal breaker is is different from mine. 

Psychiatric disorders are deal breakers for people. That's even more true if the person with the disorder doesn't have a handle on it. 

Also, don't lecture me on psychiatric disorders. I have freely and openly admitted in a variety of threads in this forum that I have bi-polar type 2 and ADD. Bi-polar and it's frequently associated problems (employment; finances; relationships; etc.) is a major burden upon relationships. It was too much for my ex. 

Do you have first hand experience here or are you blindly advocating for something about which you're simply ignorant. Or are you getting defensive. My suspicion here is that it's the latter and that you projected some insecurity here. Do you have a psychiatric disorder that's troubling you and made you lash out here?


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

A few points: It is not my impression that the person who wrote the article is telling all men they need to be nice guys. There are many different types of people in the world, and each one of them wants something different - and if you don't believe it, then your first step is to look in the upper right hand corner here, log out, and get out more until you can see that the batshit insane watered down speculations on evolutionary biology do not apply in reality. In this community alone, I am surrounded by plenty of nice, nerdy, eccentric, and not very physically fit guys who all have at least semi-conventionally attractive girlfriends. (And the only reason I mention 'attractive' is because I know all too well, the assumptions people make, and will say: YA WELL BRO THOSE MUST BE SOME PIG UGLY GIRLS LOLs! Sorry bro, *no*.) And most of those relationships seem like they will _last_. 

There is no reason for a guy to try to morph himself into an angry disingenuous tryhard, in order to 'get' a girl. Its not healthy to fight against what you are (and for the guy whos naturally more aggressive, I'm not telling him to turn into the 'nice guy' either - thats not who HE is.) A person should also know what they are getting into. That is why the point that I valued the most in his article was be yourself, and find the person you're supposed to be with. This doesn't mean that a person shouldn't refine who they are, to become a better what they are. 

Not every male desires to fit the 'mook' archetype in our culture, and I am thankful for that.. as are many women, because we would never date that type of person. I am one of many who prefers the nice, nerdy guy. And any sweeping generalization telling me that I want an aggressive jerk who works out all the time, etc., is laughable.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> A few points: It is not my impression that the person who wrote the article is telling all men they need to be nice guys. There are many different types of people in the world, and each one of them wants something different - and if you don't believe it, then your first step is to look in the upper right hand corner here, log out, and get out more until you can see that the batshit insane watered down speculations on evolutionary biology do not apply in reality. In this community alone, I am surrounded by plenty of nice, nerdy, eccentric, and not very physically fit guys who all have at least semi-conventionally attractive girlfriends. And most of those relationships seem like they will last.
> 
> There is no reason for a guy to try to try to morph himself into an angry disingenuous tryhard, in order to 'get' a girl. Its not healthy to fight against what you are (and for the guy whos naturally more aggressive, I'm not telling him to turn into the 'nice guy' either - thats not who HE is.) A person should also know what they are getting into. That is why the point that I valued the most in his article was be yourself, and find the person you're supposed to be with. This doesn't mean that a person shouldn't refine who they are, to become a better what they are.
> 
> Not every male desires to fit the 'mook' archetype in our culture, and I am thankful for that.. as are many women, because we would never date that type of person. I am one of many who prefers the nice, nerdy guy. And any sweeping generalization telling me that I want an aggressive jerk who works out all the time, etc., is laughable.


The demographics of this board by its very nature are overwhelming skewed towards more neurotic personalities who are questioning themselves and what they're about. I would suspect that that means that we have more people, especially guys, who are more tentative in relationships and instinctively observant of boundaries and therefore more likely to be "the nice guy" than the general population.

I of course have no way of proving this, but I think this is why we see a lot of these "nice guy" complaint threads in this forum.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> The demographics of this board by its very nature are overwhelming skewed towards more neurotic personalities who are questioning themselves and what they're about. I would suspect that that means that we have more people, especially guys, who are more tentative in relationships and instinctively observant of boundaries and therefore more likely to be "the nice guy" than the general population.
> 
> I of course have no way of proving this, but I think this is why we see a lot of these "nice guy" complaint threads in this forum.


You have a good point.

I also think there are lots of _single_ guys in general. We have certain types of those here. 
Not everyone finds love immediately, and they have to blame it on something. I have heard more typical conventionally attractive guys, who some would think women would be all over, say that they think they're too intimidating to women, for example.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> You have a good point.
> 
> I also think there are lots of _single_ guys in general. We have certain types of those here.
> Not everyone finds love immediately, and they have to blame it on something. I have heard more typical conventionally attractive guys, who some would think women would be all over, say that they think they're too intimidating to women, for example.


I "should" have been a more romantically accomplished guy in my mid-20's, but a lot of guys take a longer time to mature and find themselves and get confidence. That definitely applies to me. I was taught to treat women with respect and be a "gentlemen", which is not a bad thing, but it made me too tentative at first and that made me look like I lacked confidence, which of course leads to failure which then genuinely hurts your confidence. Rinse and repeat. It's a bad cycle. 

Both genders of course have their versions of that, but the very nature of (hetero)sexuality means that women tend to have an easier time attracting romance (often with the enticement of sex) than do men, who are (correctly) stereotypically the pursuers. 

It's hard to have that perspective in your early 20's, however, so it seems like an awfully big forest.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> I "should" have been a more romantically accomplished guy in my mid-20's, but a lot of guys take a longer time to mature and find themselves and get confidence. That definitely applies to me. I was taught to treat women with respect and be a "gentlemen", which is not a bad thing, but it made me too tentative at first and that made me look like I lacked confidence, which of course leads to failure which then genuinely hurts your confidence. Rinse and repeat. It's a bad cycle.
> 
> Both genders of course have their versions of that, but the very nature of (hetero)sexuality means that women tend to have an easier time attracting romance (often with the enticement of sex) than do men, who are (correctly) stereotypically the pursuers.
> 
> It's hard to have that perspective in your early 20's, however, so it seems like an awfully big forest.


What you said sounds almost identical to a friend of mine who has found dating difficult. Hes not unattractive, and hes very intelligent, etc.. also works out (it matters? lol) - anyway, can you tell me more about this 'being too tentative' thing? I ask because I was trying to help him. I also told him that he won't have this problem when hes a little older.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> [...]


So, just to make sure before laying words in your mouth to simplify the topic at hand; you're technically saying you have been a "nice guy" and took a sweet amount of time to shake that off to find your true self (or more precisely admitting your "true self" no longer compromising your inner being to fit seemingly ideals you've been instilled), since as you've implied you've been instilled with values which aren't bad per se, but cannot be a solid foundation as they're a turn off to most women and can at best only be an addition to one's behavior?

Don't misunderstand me, I found myself to be in the same boat and just stepped off it recently. Boy does it feel good and freeing.


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Erbse said:


> So, just to make sure before laying words in your mouth to simplify the topic at hand; you're technically saying you have been a "nice guy" and took a sweet amount of time to shake that off to find your true self (or more precisely admitting your "true self" no longer compromising your inner being to fit seemingly ideals you've been instilled), since as you've implied you've been instilled with values which aren't bad per se, but cannot be a solid foundation as they're a turn off to most women and can at best only be an addition to one's behavior?
> 
> Don't misunderstand me, I found myself to be in the same boat and just stepped off it recently. Boy does it feel good and freeing.


The term "nice guy" is very vague, and I never applied that to myself. That term invokes images of a "soft", emotional guy, and I've never been confused for that. 

Instead, in true INTP form, I was reserved and proper, guarded emotionally, and observed conservative dating etiquette and boundaries when I was younger. Etiquette is a nice crutch to use when you don't feel socially confident. 

The problem was that I was unreadable and appeared stiff and formal. That's either intimidating or boring or makes me look up tight, and those aren't good recipes for dating success. I could still come out of my shell - I'm a pretty funny guy with a quick wit once I warm up; it's when my ENTP side comes out - but I can't just throw a switch. 

Anyway, the difference now is that I've learned not to care as much. If a casual dating relationship doesn't work out, then it's not going to be a blow to my confidence like it would have back then. And being more confident gives you good non-verbals to a woman as it's attractive in its own right and it makes you look less needy (which is threatening) and it lowers the tension level and makes dating more fun. 

I've also learned that women are sexual creatures in their own right, and while everyone has different boundaries in that regard, flirting and sexual advances that are audience-appropriate are very much welcomed and productive. (When I was younger, I usually didn't have trouble getting teh secks once I'd established a dating relationship, but I wasn't a one night stand champ or anything.) It is possible to treat a woman with respect while also inviting a more sexual turn to a relationship - in fact that's of great assistance in helping most women feel "safe" enough to enable that. It also helps in that regard that I'm a horny bastard who can't help but push on that envelope a little as well. :wink:


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Promethea said:


> What you said sounds almost identical to a friend of mine who has found dating difficult. Hes not unattractive, and hes very intelligent, etc.. also works out (it matters? lol) - anyway, can you tell me more about this 'being too tentative' thing? I ask because I was trying to help him. I also told him that he won't have this problem when hes a little older.


Not all of this is "fixable" right now - he needs to grow into himself a little. I think being "behavioral" is helpful though. If you act confident, it helps you look confident and be confident, and it builds upon itself. 

Tell him to keep working out and stay in shape as that helps one's confidence (but make sure he doesn't put too much importance into his physical appearance - I've heard a lot of women refer to men who are just "too into their bodies", so looking like a muscle head is something he might want to avoid as it may make him look shallow and self-centered), and he can keep talking to you to help him understand how to refine what he's doing. 

Aside from that, it just depends upon time and experience. He needs to try to just have fun and date, and learn along the way, and don't try to find a soul mate. It's not a race. 

See also, here. I've got other posts on this but can't readily find them right now.


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## Erbse (Oct 15, 2010)

redmanXNTP said:


> The term "nice guy" is very vague, and I never applied that to myself. That term invokes images of a "soft", emotional guy, and I've never been confused for that.


"Nice Guys" being "soft", emotional guys is an actual misconception, as that's not what I meant to imply by using that term, I'll clarify shortly, though.



> Etiquette is a nice crutch to use *when you don't feel socially confident.*





> The problem was that *I was unreadable and appeared stiff and formal*. That's either intimidating or boring or makes me look up tight, and those aren't good recipes for dating success.





> Anyway, the difference now is that I've learned not to care as much. If a casual dating relationship doesn't work out, then it's not going to be a blow to my confidence like it would have back then. And being more confident gives you good non-verbals to a woman as it's attractive in its own right and it makes you look less needy (which is threatening) and it lowers the tension level and makes dating more fun.


"Nice Guys" is commonly mis-used expression these days that is misinterpreted (such as introverted = shy), as "Nice Guy" is actually more of a psychological pattern (or problem, even) than just something you choose to play and hope to get you anywhere.

Technically it's a term that describes a guy who has no identity, or more precisely has not had the necessary amount of masculinity instilled into him while growing up, for various reasons. "Nice Guys" didn't actually exist 3-4 generations back, but are a recent societal occurrences. This means those men generally lack what a man is, or used to be for that matter, "long lost" values and traits that either weren't passed on properly, or are being suppressed by the individual as he views them as "bad" or "inappropriate" while they're really not, in reality that is. 

Granted, if you can't really follow me here it's no biggy, it'd just have been interesting to see whether or not you'd have considered yourself one in retrospective. If the topic does interest you, I suggest you to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" by Robert Glover. The book itself was somewhat annoying due to repetition of the same phrases (also too shallow, but good enough as an entry point) and points, but overall shaped a nice solid picture of what's been going wrong in recent society as far as values are concerned.

I'm actually currently looking for more useful material (more indepth) on the subject. You're quite a tad older if I remember correctly, but should still be able to have observed, if not experienced the described phenomenon in that book.


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## Promethea (Aug 24, 2009)

redmanXNTP said:


> Not all of this is "fixable" right now - he needs to grow into himself a little. I think being "behavioral" is helpful though. If you act confident, it helps you look confident and be confident, and it builds upon itself.
> 
> Tell him to keep working out and stay in shape as that helps one's confidence (but make sure he doesn't put too much importance into his physical appearance - I've heard a lot of women refer to men who are just "too into their bodies", so looking like a muscle head is something he might want to avoid as it may make him look shallow and self-centered), and he can keep talking to you to help him understand how to refine what he's doing.
> 
> ...


I thought of two things.. he has this really preemptive way of talking, like hes already assuming he will be misunderstood, and his perfectionism seems to be the focus, and it taxes the reserves that are needed to fuel the confidence. I think to put it simple, yeah, its a lack of confidence. Hes a triple competent, and always worried that hes not doing something or saying something -exactly- the way he intends to. I think if he could learn to loosen up a bit, it would start to fall into place. I talked to someone else who is in this community, about him, and he reported that basically, girls in general find him a bit creepy - which I later translated into unnaturally structured and rigid in his approach. And tbh hes not exactly a nice person. Hes usually very critical, but in this environment full of NTs, no one much gives a darn about someone being critical. I feel bad because he asks girls out but they never say yes - though I have had my suspicions that hes not picking ones that might be receptive. All of his other qualities, I'm certain someone will eventually see the value in him. I don't know many guys like him who are still single in their 30s for example. Anyway, thanks. ^_^ I'd like to try to at least give him some perspective on what parts of himself to refine in order to be less uptight. : D lol


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## redmanXNTP (May 17, 2011)

Erbse said:


> "Nice Guys" didn't actually exist 3-4 generations back, but are a recent societal occurrences. This means those men generally lack what a man is, or used to be for that matter, "long lost" values and traits that either weren't passed on properly, or are being suppressed by the individual as he views them as "bad" or "inappropriate" while they're really not, in reality that is.


I don't agree with this. I'm a big believer that people now are very much the same as they always have been, with only superficial societal differences and trends. Young men were worrying about how to attract women just as much in ancient Egypt as they are today, and women were just as attracted to the "wild young men" of the day as they are now, even though how that was specifically defined at the time was different within that social context. To use another example, Jane Austen's novels are filled with women lamenting boring, socially proper relationships and longing for the more adventurous, colorful man. The literature of the time didn't talk openly about sexual attraction, but the themes are all there too. 

Young men have (among other things) always competed for womens' attention by seeking to appear confident and strong and independent by flaunting the social norms of the day. Women have always generally guarded their sexuality as their mating trump card, knowing that like any asset it's subject to losing its value through inflation if given away too cheaply, and therefore typically not giving it away in a relationship they feel is worth pursuing if the man doesn't demand it as a condition of maintaining his romantic interests. 

Again, cultural norms and sexual mores and dating etiquette of the given era all greatly influence this, but the underlying tensions and currency used in the sexual "bargaining" remain the same.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Brian1 said:


> The question I think here becomes, does your mom love you in a way that you hadn't considered? My brother has issues with my dad, but he finally learned dad loves him when dad asked about the leaking gas in the A/C. Checking my brother's well being, in terms of I think it was a house he was sharing with a roommate, so everything goes smoothly. These are facets of love we should not overlook.


THIS.

My ISTJ grandfather showed love by making sure I NEVER wanted for anything, always had pretty or fashionable clothes, had dance and piano lessons, by teaching me to read before I even started school, by making my life completely stable and quiet and predictable, by trying to empower me to be an intelligent woman who wasn't pregnant before I left high school...and he made sure I did graduate, that too.

My ESFP mother shows love by actually saying she loves me, and sometimes crying about it to show her sincerity, and by cooking me food, and sending me twenty dollars when I can't buy groceries.

My ESFP mother is more expressive than my ISTJ grandfather did, but she never gave me the stability, consistency, or guidance that he did either. 

Two totally different styles of expressing love. Both of these family members love me, and I'm sure of it, and I wouldn't be who I am without them, no matter what their flaws are.


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## Everyday Ghoul (Aug 4, 2009)

Well, the bad boy wears it on their sleeve. Reckless behavior, violence, extreme apathy, etc. You don't get into that relationship without realizing what you got yourself into (at least, you shouldn't). With a nice guy, the anger is hidden, but that should be a clue, actually. Put a nice guy in a situation that calls for assertiveness, conflict resolution, or any situation that would make a normal person mad as hell, and see if they act mad. Anyone suffering from nice guy syndrome due to anger, a nice guy with the potential to abuse, won't react.


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## Everyday Ghoul (Aug 4, 2009)

On the mother thing; if your mother has a stroke, falls and gets severely hurt, and years of emotional manipulation and guilt tripping cause you to believe you somehow caused it and killed her, because you're a god awful, worthless bastard of a son, you might have been abused.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

@Btmangan

Believe me, @fourtines and I have had our less than pleasant encounters, but I can promise you that she's not trying to accuse you of anything right now. She really just wants to know what else is going on so that she can understand because she doesn't right now. From a strictly objective perspective from someone who's had mini back and forths with you both, it seems clear that she really wants to understand and help. She does have a good heart, promise. Don't discount what she has to say, though you might perceive it as harsh. She's wanting you to explain because she doesn't understand, and she doesn't want to pass a judgment or provide you with insight on the chance that you haven't placed all of the cards on the table in order for her to provide the correct help.


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## Luke (Oct 17, 2010)

I think part of the problem is that "nice" people often have a positive view of others, but a negative view of themselves. Basically, they are insecure and look to please others to gain their approval. In terms of psychology, someone with a positive view of others and a negative view of themselves is thought to have a anxious-preoccupied romantic attachment style. Here is a short summary of how this attachment style exhibits itself:

"People who formed an anxious or preoccupied attachment as an infant, by comparison, are more likely to be preoccupied with their relationships as an adult. Anxious or preoccupied adults are constantly worried and anxious about their love life - they crave and desperately need intimacy - but, they never stop questioning their partner’s love (“do you really love me?”). Anxious individuals are concerned that their partners will leave them. These adults are obsessed with their relationships and everything that happens in them. They rarely feel completely loved and they experience extreme emotional highs and lows. One minute their romantic partner can make their day by showing them the smallest level of interest and the next minute they are worried that their partner doesn’t care about them. Overall, anxiously attached individuals are hard to satisfy; you can’t love them enough, or be close enough to them, and they constantly monitor their relationships for problems. Ironically, their need for love, makes it easy for anxious individuals to be taken advantage of when it comes to love and romance, which in the long run can create even more suspicion and doubt."
Attachment Styles - Truth About Deception

I think the cure for this is to build self confidence and esteem. You will often hear how self confidence is a particularly attractive quality. I think this causes some people to fall into the trap of trying to project a confident image in order to impress and attract others. Being confident to impress others is not true confidence. In fact, it is changing yourself to please other people, which is the opposite of self confidence. If you want to build true confidence you need to do it for yourself. If you do it for others you will only ever achieve a shallow reflection of true confidence. To be truly confident you need to have a deep appreciation of yourself that does not depend on others approval.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Brian1 said:


> I don't mean to play doctor. . .


Thank you @Brian1. 

Physically, we didn't interact very much I used to hang all over her when I was a kid. 

As for now, I hug my father a lot and he is very close. As I said, I love him very much. I hug my mom pretty much out of form. It doesn't mean anything for me anymore. 



> Wait a second, you just stated the I'll scratch your back so you scratch mine with your dad, but then you're upset when your mom does the same exact thing? I learned from NFers that there are concepts and they actually have to be driven to return it, even if it's faux love keeping up appearances.


Mom pretty much won't shovel the snow or rake (She can't do much anything physical for protracted periods), so I generally come home from college on the weekends to help with these things. As an INFJ, I understand that as a "son" I do owe certain duties to my parents. 

My father and my mom are divorced. She is now dating an ENTP (pretty wild guess on my part. I'm not good at guessing) and he is a Godsend. I don't know what it is exactly, but he does see what's going on between my mom and I and he takes my side 90% of the time when my mom and I fight. 

This has actually gotten him in some pretty serious trouble with her he's "voting against his interests" as they say lol. 



> Back to my grandfather, he was oblivious to everyone else. He lived by the beach in Massachusetts. He was the same generation as John F. Kennedy, and his childhood president was Franklin D. Roosevelt. Both FDR and JFK-in fact all Kennedys, loved to sail. But they were both wealthy. That didn't matter. My grandfather had survived WWII, had survived a dad who walked out on his family forcing him to work at age 14. So, he took money reserved for my mom to help pay for college, and he spent it on a boat. The family hated each experience, sailing. But grandad thought it was a rights of passage. I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess I can see a lot of your mom in my grandad. The question I think here becomes, does your mom love you in a way that you hadn't considered? My brother has issues with my dad, but he finally learned dad loves him when dad asked about the leaking gas in the A/C. Checking my brother's well being, in terms of I think it was a house he was sharing with a roommate, so everything goes smoothly. These are facets of love we should not overlook. And I'll bet you anything your mom was trying to teach you something with the pancakes. Pancakes are nice but cereal is healthier. And it costs money to make pancakes, turn the burner on, the milk, eggs mix. Pancakes should be looked upon as a nice treat to be had every now and then. Of course she's going to use it as a bartering chip. Parents do that with Santa Claus. It's not a crime.


I do try to be warm with her. I don't want to feel this way towards her. She's my mother. But I am cautious now. . . *very *cautious.

I wish I could trust her as well, but I can't. Generally, anything I tell her is known by my entire extended family within a few days, no matter how personal or embarrassing that fact might be.

@Ace Face 

I've gotten along with her quite well before now. 

But here? Give me a break. She called me a "bitter nice guy". What was that if not just a malicious attribution? I have said nothing here to deserve that. Have I? 

If you can find something that I posted that indicates that this comment war warranted, please point it out to me and I will be happy to apologize and put this entire thing to rest.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I just want to say that I've had a self-professed "nice guy" who I was convinced just a few months ago was a thoroughly decent human being say and do very mean things to me, and he does it in such a passive-aggressive way that even as we speak he's doing something, and I can't figure out if his motives are to hurt me further, or because he genuinely wants to talk to me (and the scary thing is, _I don't know if he actually knows, either,_ or if he does really want to hurt me further then...why? ...and how does he keep thinking he's a "nice guy" by hurting someone who loves him and was loyal to him?)

There's a certain victim-y kind of "nice guy" who I'm never attracted to in the first place, and then there's this sort of "nice guy" who by "nice" means "does the presentable or expected thing" rather being genuinely kind.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> But here? Give me a break. She called me a "bitter nice guy". What was that if not just a malicious attribution? I have said nothing here to deserve that. Have I?
> 
> If you can find something that I posted that indicates that this comment war warranted, please point it out to me and I will be happy to apologize and put this entire thing to rest.


LOL....dude, you were totally snarky and short with me, and said I was projecting, but then was more than happy to thoroughly explain your case to "daddy"...I mean, @Brian1. 

Do you not even see how you responded to me? You're playing victim.

And yeah, I called you bitter "nice guy" after that because you seem bitter that you're more superior at loving than your mother is, even though you can't even bring yourself to love your own mother. Irony much? Besides, the thread is called "Bitter 'Nice Guy'" not "What Are Your Issues With Your Mom?"


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

Btmangan said:


> @Ace Face
> 
> I've gotten along with her quite well before now.
> 
> But here? Give me a break. She called me a "bitter nice guy". What was that if not just a malicious attribution? I have said nothing here to deserve that.


I understand what you're saying. She did digress and ask you to explain, though. She pulled back on her own reigns, and asked for the full story because she realized that there might be more than the little you've explained so far. She realizes that her initial judgment may have been off, thus her asking for more details. Make sense? She wants to help.


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## Ace Face (Nov 13, 2011)

fourtines said:


> LOL....dude, you were totally snarky and short with me, and said I was projecting, but then was more than happy to thoroughly explain your case to "daddy"...I mean, Brian1.
> 
> Do you not even see how you responded to me? You're playing victim.
> 
> And yeah, I called you bitter "nice guy" after that because you seem bitter that you're more superior at loving than your mother is, even though you can't even bring yourself to love your own mother. Irony much? Besides, the thread is called "Bitter 'Nice Guy'" not "What Are Your Issues With Your Mom?"


The black gates of Mordor have now opened x)


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

Ace Face said:


> I understand what you're saying. She did digress and ask you to explain, though. She pulled back on her own reigns, and asked for the full story because she realized that there might be more than the little you've explained so far. She realizes that her initial judgment may have been off, thus her asking for more details. Make sense? She wants to help.


Things with my mother are confusing. *shrug* I wish I could say more. 

It's in the way she looks at me. . . the way she speaks to me. How can I quantify that? 

To be perfectly honest, I read Pink's post and something just shifted in my mind, and I felt like talking about my mom. There is a lot about my and her relationship which doesn't make sense and a lot of questions to be asked. 

Are my feelings towards my mom valid? I honestly don't know. I could have zero ethical ground to stand upon. I don't want to do a poor-me routine and run through a list of shit that's happened between us. . . it's so cliche and so subjective. But I can tell you what I feel in regards to my mother. I feel disrespected. I feel used. I feel unappreciated. I feel like she wants to run my life. 



fourtines said:


> LOL....dude, you were totally snarky and short with me, and said I was projecting, but then was more than happy to thoroughly explain your case to "daddy"...I mean, @Brian1.


You projecting things onto something you don't understand? Ooo Wow that's such a huge insult. I'll write you an apology poem. 



> And yeah, I called you bitter "nice guy" after that because you seem bitter that you're more superior at loving than your mother is, even though you can't even bring yourself to love your own mother. Irony much? Besides, the thread is called "Bitter 'Nice Guy'" not "What Are Your Issues With Your Mom?"


WOW. I'm so fucking sorry I'm going off topic for you. Lets talk about nice guys, by all means! 

They're insecure and they generally do good deeds because they believe those good deeds will eventually "earn" them love. 

Do you agree with this assessment? 



> Do you not even see how you responded to me? You're playing victim.


Oh, so you noticed you're getting up in my shit and that you should back the fuck off? You're perception is legendary!


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

@fourtines 

and what an elegant description "Bitter nice guy" is anyone who feels like they're morally superior to someone and is bitter about it. 

Oh hey, look by you claiming that I'm guilty of that, you're doing the same shit. 

Please, grasp at straws moar.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> @fourtines
> 
> and what an elegant description "Bitter nice guy" is anyone who feels like they're morally superior to someone and is bitter about it.
> 
> ...


I never said I was morally superior. Far from it, I'm actually quite the flawed human being. Just ask ...anybody. I don't hide or pretend. If anything, I've made myself look like the bad guy in this thread.

Bitter "nice guys" are passive or passive-aggressive. I'm just assertive or even aggressive and I'm out with it when I'm annoyed or upset. That's not "nice."

No, I don't think that doing good deeds to earn love is a "nice guy" in the offensive sense. I think people who do good deeds to earn love just learned to love that way. I think a bitter "nice guy" is someone who is passive-aggressive and acts weak, and then blames other people when they don't assert themselves.


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## WamphyriThrall (Apr 11, 2011)

Crap, this thread just might get closed if this keeps up. And here I was enjoying reading through some of these eye-opening responses.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

I just don't understand how I understand the reciprocal nature of Fe more than an Fe user? 

It's like...most people are raised with the expectation that if they are "good" they will be better liked. Fe users in particular thrive on this whole reciprocity of following their group's social rules. 

Love is give and take. Love is an action as well as a feeling. 

I don't think wrong there's anything with doing good deeds to try to earn love, or to keep an atmosphere of love around you. 

What *I* think is wrong is being sneaky, dishonest, and being so passive that all the responsibility is on everyone else, not on you. 

That's what *I* saw wrong in Pink's post about her abusive ex-husband - not that he did nice things, or was an Fe dom, but that he was so passive and sneaky and underhandedly unethical.


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## Resolution (Feb 8, 2010)

fourtines said:


> I never said I was morally superior. Far from it, I'm actually quite the flawed human being. Just ask ...anybody. I don't hide or pretend. If anything, I've made myself look like the bad guy in this thread.


I can forget it if you can. . . my anger is gone. I put it into all that seething sarcasm above ^ 



> Bitter "nice guys" are passive or passive-aggressive. I'm just assertive or even aggressive and I'm out with it when I'm annoyed or upset. That's not "nice."


Trust me, Fourt. Being too indirect isn't my weakness. 



> No, I don't think that doing good deeds to earn love is a "nice guy" in the offensive sense. I think people who do good deeds to earn love just learned to love that way. I think a bitter "nice guy" is someone who is passive-aggressive and acts weak, and then blames other people when they don't assert themselves.


I'd always seen it when a guy would be friends with a girl and kiss her ass (in a very disingenuous way) and do whatever she wanted and then get mad when it didn't translate out to sex. 

Still, your definition fits that too.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Btmangan said:


> I can forget it if you can. . . my anger is gone. I put it into all that seething sarcasm above ^
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, Fourt. Being too indirect isn't my weakness.


It doesn't matter. I don't care. I'm not even angry, but you were being indirect with me. I don't see there as being anything to get over, on my side of it. 





> I'd always seen it when a guy would be friends with a girl and kiss her ass (in a very disingenuous way) and do whatever she wanted and then get mad when it didn't translate out to sex.
> 
> Still, your definition fits that too.


Well of course most people will try to court someone ...that's what people do...they attempt to win people over to date them...I don't see anything wrong with that. 

Friendships do turn into more, and people do get upset when they get rejected.

Also, in pink's case, I just want to say that some people have the morality that if you leave a marriage or cheat on them, that they will try to kill you, or close to it. What I saw wrong is that he was passive...passive...passive...and then he became violent, not only toward her, but _toward their child _when she attempted to leave.

It's the passivity and denial that bothers me. Deeply. 

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on what the problem is. I have no problem with romance, with trying to win someone over, with being friends with someone you actually want to date...what I think is the problem is when people don't assert themselves and then suddenly want to complain that things didn't go their way. 

I was in a relationship once for a short period of time with a guy who never argued with me. Like, he rarely argued with me even about ideas. I lost all interest in him. He was the most boring, non-sexual person to me in the world because of it.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

Btmangan said:


> Love is not a thing to be bartered. It's not a "I did this, now you need to do that" and yet so often I see it in those terms.
> 
> When I was younger and the weekend came around, I'd sometimes come downstairs from my night's sleep and find a plate of steaming, delicious pancakes on the kitchen table.
> 
> ...


 I am sorry you feel disrespected as a person. I am also sorry you feel you are the target of someone else's passive aggressive tendencies. It makes it SO much harder to call them on their shit and explain it, right? There are even classes to enable you to do this better. 

You have a right to all your feelings and I have no doubt in some way you feel your spirit crushed by your mother. And if you feel manipulated and know in your heart you are, the worse thing is to not receive any validation for your side. Matter of fact, that is what is bothering you now. No one is admitting anything, especially your mother. But you KNOW something is wrong and that there is a need unmet from you. You want the games to stop and the honesty to come through. Sometimes you feel separate in your real life because you can see the manipulation so clearly, yet no one else does quite like you do. I'm sure coming to this thread didn't help. I'm sorry. Things like that used to give me panic attacks. I wanted so badly for people to believe me. I wanted to expose their doings for the sake of my own sanity. "I'm not the crazy one!" Often manipulative people will make you feel like your the crazy one or even the manipulative one. It sucks so bad.

I'm validating you. There is definitely something funky going on in your relationship with your mother. I hope you can work it out, or separate for a while completely. I can only love my family from afar or in short spurts. They are much too toxic when up close in person or if I allow them any control. But they are who they are and I can't change them. I love them and I have forgiveness. But that could never come if my feelings hadn't been validated first. My pain was real and I had a right to it. This is how I knew something wasn't right. Even if no one believed me.

And you're right. No one should give with strings attached. It's wrong. But people do it all the time. I personally hate it and refuse to play the game if someone starts doing this around me. They can't confuse me and guilt me and make me think their "nice" when they are only trying to manipulate. In fact if they give, I say "thank you" and walk away from any responsibility to them other than what I want to give. And usually I find just a "thank you" alone suffices. 

If you haven't done this already, get a counselor. I'm positive they will let you sort out your feelings and validate what's going on. You don't need to hear right now that you are the problem when your mother already makes you feel that way. That will never bridge the love between you two. If will only foster more resentment and anger.


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

pinkrasputin said:


> And you're right. No one should give with strings attached. It's wrong. But people do it all the time.


People give to get, and there is nothing wrong with it, if it's done in moderation. Of course you should do things because you love people, but it's also only practical to give with reciprocity or society simply would not work on a practical level.

Sometimes it looks selfish to me when people say this...like no one should give to get...really? Is that because you enjoy taking so much?

Also, sometimes people who are doormats really are doormats...they really have given too much, and really have been taken advantage of, and it's not fair to them, it's really not. This happens to my sister, and sometimes I WISH she would stand up for herself and demand something in return, which is the opposite of what you're saying.

I believe this is a difference in moral viewpoint.





> I personally hate it and refuse to play the game if someone starts doing this around me. They can't confuse me and guilt me and make me think their "nice" when they are only trying to manipulate. *In fact if they give, I say "thank you" and walk away from any responsibility to them other than what I want to give. * And usually I find just a "thank you" alone suffices.


I hope you do walk away when you don't plan to give anything in return. It's unfair to keep taking when you don't want to give back. 

If you feel someone is manipulating you by doing nice things, and you really don't want to give anything in return, then stop talking to them, don't keep taking from them and then complain how manipulative they are.

Also, I noticed that @_Btmangan_ mentioned in one of his posts that he does things his mom hates, like yardwork, because he wants to be a good son. That's equally as manipulative as what he's complaining about, ironically.


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## pinkrasputin (Apr 13, 2009)

fourtines said:


> Sometimes it looks selfish to me when people say this...like no one should give to get...really?


 If somebody wants something from me, I prefer for them to just ask me directly. I can't decode or get hints.


> Is that because you enjoy taking so much?


 If someone wants to freely give to me because it makes them happy, I will receive it and say "thank you". It can be insulting to not let people who love you give to you. And I do say "Thank you" back because I have manners. My daughter likes to make me cards or make me breakfast sometimes. Sometimes she buys me a little gift with her money. It's sweet and it means a lot to her to be able to give to me. 

But I don't put myself in a position to need something from someone. I can't control others and they can't control me. 

I don't find myself a taker, but I bet a manipulative person would. Like the guy who offered to fix my flat while I was stranded on the road and then getting pissed that I wouldn't give him my number afterwards. I don't feel guilty. I said thank you.

I think it would be most beneficial for a lot of people to read this book :Amazon.com: when i say no i feel guilty: Books It's like the bible for assertive training. Good read! Thumbs up!



> If you feel someone is manipulating you by doing nice things, and you really don't want to give anything in return, then stop talking to them, don't keep taking from them and then complain how manipulative they are.


 As a rule, I don't keep manipulative people in my life. And if I run into something I suspect is manipulation, I don't let it bother me. I don't try to get into their head. I simply just say "Thank you" and feel guilty about nothing. There is no reason to. 

It's dangerous for me to place expectations on people and it's equally as bad for them to place expectations on me. I'm sure I would disappoint them over and over again. But I give what I can give, I know my limits, and setting up boundaries is good for them so that it doesn't lead to resentments later. 



> Also, I noticed that @_Btmangan_ mentioned in one of his posts that he does things his mom hates, like yardwork, because he wants to be a good son. That's equally as manipulative as what he's complaining about, ironically.


I can understand your point and why you say this. However, the motivation to be a good son may be different than the motivation of someone guilt manipulating or giving to "cover up" an existing issue to make themselves still look good. It's really not for me to decide. I just hear a lot of pain.


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