# Specific Examples of Variants



## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Sp: I use a humidifier every night, a variety of special skin products every morning and evening, and am concerned with make up/my physical appearance to a great degree.

Sp/Sx: I prefer the comforts of home, but like the people I am closest to to be there with me.

Sp: When I was at very "unhealthy" levels, according to the enneagram, I struggled with anorexia (had a BMI below 15 at some points).

Sp: I obsess about different diets (not just weight loss diets -- simply meaning what types of food I ingest) and exercise.

Sp: I have lots of collectibles and try to find ways to display them. I decorate my home to be a reflection of me.

Sp: I worry a lot about my financial situation, yet can't stop myself from buying things I enjoy. 

These all apply to me (I'm sp/sx).


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

*About SOC instinct:* I've heard it as keeping an eye on the pulse of a group. If you then take this information and use it to be compliant to the group, then that's up to the person, their motivations, etc. 

*SP/SX*: Enjoys talking about food. And stealing food. And then talking about it.

It cuts a bit close to simplistic stereotypes but I actually have a friend who will happily compare fast food chain prices in conversation, or talk about how the burgers used to be bigger and display genuine and deep-seated irritation. He also eagerly tells you how he stole all the free mints, sugars and teas from a meeting. It doesn't even matter if he doesn't like mints. 

...He's the closest thing I have to a real-life Vork. (Anyone watch The Guild?)


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## Karen (Jul 17, 2009)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> *Sx/So: intense, "sex drugs and rock n' roll"*


Though I can occasionally be on the quiet side and don't necessarily need to be the center of attention, I need a strong connection with everything I do, whether backcountry skiing, hiking, connecting with wild plants and animals and the beauty of nature, dancing in front of speakers so I get the full effect of the music, reading 20 books on a subject I'm interested in, and going out 7 nights a week and talking ideas for hours with friends. I've never gone looking for a relationship but I've had quite a few anyway, and when I'm in one, it tends to be close with a deep sharing. I've had some boyfriends tell me that being with me was fun, but an intense experience. I don't see myself as intense, more fun-loving, but I guess I fit the definition of SX.


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

SP: I am extremely concerned about personal comfort in my environment. I like to have all my things in the right place and to know that nobody is going to touch them or mess with them. It is always very difficult for me to be in situation where I have no privacy, and my things can be touched by other people (unless it's my partner).

SP: I am always very careful regarding my personal safety, always try to be prepared and to foresee any possible danger, so to avoid risky situations.

SX: When I am in contact with people, like at work, I always think if I may aesthetically like them.

SX: I am always concerned with the aesthetical aspects of things, like my clothes or even objects that I use.


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

Paradigm said:


> - Selfish. It's hard to admit, but I am selfish. Always have been. I need what I need, even if someone else needs it.


This is very interesting. I can definitely relate to it. I have always been defined (since I was a child) selfish so I guess it's another trait that confirms the SP predominance.


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

bamboozle said:


> *SP/SX*: Enjoys talking about food. And stealing food. And then talking about it.


Food is a thing I enjoy talking about and goes together with my interest in all health matters.
Though it also has for me a sort of SX connotation to it, meaning that it is also a way to enjoy a sort of sexual pleasure and to make my environment more elegant and interesting.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I was wrong. @Paradigm was right about me. It took me some time to gather enough observable information on how I behave on an instinctual level, but yeah the final verdict is *Darkside So/Sx*, which basically means So with very strong auxiliary Sx.

*Description:*

*soc/sx*

This type has very strong one to one social skills, but is usually uncomfortable in group settings. They enjoy cultivating multiple relationships, and can be intensely involved when in the presence of someone they are interested in, but have difficulty sustaining these bonds when apart. This may give the impression of being flighty and rootless, willing to adapt and mirror others in order to connect, but lacking a defined approach that would give their relationships a more solid standing. They may have political interests, but are generally more pragmatic and less partisan than the other social variant. They are often attuned to pop culture and the latest trends. This type's motivation is to create lasting connections with those they are interested in - the "best friend.
*
Darksiders (strong sx)* seem eager to prove their soc isn't in full control, so they typically test the boundaries of traditional soc values. Maybe knee-jerk reactions against sheepish herd behavior, group mentalities, or warmside strategies for making connections. They aren't any less healthy by definition, but can seem that way due to their darker, more confrontational manner. They use highly customized interactive tactics like all so/sx's, but in a more uncompromising "keeping it real" way, owing to the active tension between "good" soc and "bad" sx.

 so yeah I'm Soc first and so far seem to be an introvert. Ask me anything .

*Why I think soc firsts can mistype as SP first:*

So variant can be very self conscious, especially if how we are as a person is odd. That translates in withdrawing from social things due to hypersensitivity to how others perceive us. For me the strong Sx side adds to this with outbursts of going against socially established norms (sort of pushing the boundaries).

People always said I go from one extreme to another and i never really understood what that meant, now i'm starting to get it..maybe.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Giovanni said:


> SP: I am extremely concerned about personal comfort in my environment. I like to have all my things in the right place and to know that nobody is going to touch them or mess with them. It is always very difficult for me to be in situation where I have no privacy, and my things can be touched by other people (unless it's my partner).
> 
> SP: I am always very careful regarding my personal safety, always try to be prepared and to foresee any possible danger, so to avoid risky situations.
> 
> ...


I'm a fellow sp/sx and I relate to all of these!


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

bamboozle said:


> *SP/SX*: Enjoys talking about food. And stealing food. And then talking about it.


Hahahaha. Yes, I love food!! I plan out what/when/where I'm eating every day O_O I'm aware of what I have and what needs to be bought soon as well. Oh dear.



Sarah said:


> Though I can occasionally be on the quiet side and don't necessarily need to be the center of attention, I need a strong connection with everything I do, whether backcountry skiing, hiking, connecting with wild plants and animals and the beauty of nature, dancing in front of speakers so I get the full effect of the music, reading 20 books on a subject I'm interested in, and going out 7 nights a week and talking ideas for hours with friends. I've never gone looking for a relationship but I've had quite a few anyway, and when I'm in one, it tends to be close with a deep sharing. I've had some boyfriends tell me that being with me was fun, but an intense experience. I don't see myself as intense, more fun-loving, but I guess I fit the definition of SX.


Sounds really fun =) I *love* dancing right in front of the speakers, though I *always* wear my Hi-Fi earplugs (SP!)



Rim said:


> So variant can be very self conscious, especially if how we are as a person is odd. That translates in withdrawing from social things due to hypersensitivity to how others perceive us. For me the strong Sx side adds to this with outbursts of going against socially established norms (sort of pushing the boundaries).


Hmm, interesting! I've actually recently had some thoughts related to this:

Can anxiety relate to the different variants? For example, there are people who are anxious about money, health, or shelter, people who are anxious in one-on-one situations, and people who are socially anxious.

I wonder if our first instinct is the one we've taken care of most, so we are fairly comfortable with. Our third instinct, we don't really care much for, so we're okay with as well. But our second instinct shows some importance to us but we may not be comfortable with. This is just a random theory, since for me, I'm confident in my ability to maintain my autonomy and resources. However, I'm very anxious in one-on-one situations! I thought this made me SP/SO because I am comfortable in groups of people, but in actuality I'm SP/SX, and I may be anxious because SX is sort of like a threat to my SP? Hmm...I wonder.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

SP: I'm a bit of a homebody. I don't like leaving my house if I don't need to that day.

SP: I enjoy the privacy of my room. I make sure the atmosphere and ambiance is completely comfortable so I can feel at peace in it.

SP: After going out, even if people offer me a place to crash, I usually do my best to make it home and sleep in my own bed.

SP/SX: I have a definite presence in a room. I may be sitting by myself, but people seem intrigued and come up to talk to me.

SP/SX?: I often walk quickly and confidently, sort of like I'm in a self-contained circle of awesome.


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## Jennywocky (Aug 7, 2009)

Spades said:


> Ultimately, SO = compliant traits, SX = aggressive traits, SP = withdrawn traits (or so I've read).


It sounds nice on paper, but I don't know if that pans out at all IRL... at least not in such a broad, raw way. Part of the reason is that there can be different motivations tied up in expression of SO, SX, and SP traits, not just the ones listed.

And, to just borrow the obvious example, SO is easily my worst variant of the three, but I'm actually very compliant in terms of what skillset I developed. The SX is very intense for me, but coupled into a normally withdrawn personality (INP), if there is any aggression involved, it would be turned against myself and not others.... I would rather punish/isolate myself than intrude/cling to another individual and place demands on them, but if they want to be open to me, I will go as insanely deep as they'll allow, and I still feel that intensity of belonging to each other in a sense even if I will exert no level of possession on the other person because of the rest of my personality.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

@Spades, your theory that what's second in our stacking is what we have anxiety over. I'm pretty sure I'm sp/sx with a strong sx, but I have more anxiety over daily living stuff than I have anxiety over one-on-one situations. Maybe the fact that my sp and sx are almost tied makes it more natural for me/more understandable that I would still have more anxiety over sp issues than sx issues?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

unico said:


> @Spades, your theory that what's second in our stacking is what we have anxiety over. I'm pretty sure I'm sp/sx with a strong sx, but I have more anxiety over daily living stuff than I have anxiety over one-on-one situations. Maybe the fact that my sp and sx are almost tied makes it more natural for me/more understandable that I would still have more anxiety over sp issues than sx issues?


Perhaps. Though I already want to modify what I said: I think that we care most about our first survival instinct, and so we naturally worry about it more. However, if we have it taken care of pretty well, we begin to focus on the second one? Hmm...no, that doesn't explain my situation.

Now I'm not sure.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Spades said:


> Perhaps. Though I already want to modify what I said: I think that we care most about our first survival instinct, and so we naturally worry about it more. However, if we have it taken care of pretty well, we begin to focus on the second one? Hmm...no, that doesn't explain my situation.
> 
> Now I'm not sure.


Sorry I didn't finish my first sentence! I meant to say your theory was interesting. What you said here would fit me, but if it doesn't fit you then there's probably still an issue with it, unfortunately


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

unico said:


> Sorry I didn't finish my first sentence! I meant to say your theory was interesting. What you said here would fit me, but if it doesn't fit you then there's probably still an issue with it, unfortunately


Actually, it might!

I'll wait for the Stacking Experts to come and say something on the matter XD.

Also, there are other factors that could come into play when it comes to anxiety as well. Humans are complicated =)


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Spades said:


> Hmm, interesting! I've actually recently had some thoughts related to this:
> 
> Can anxiety relate to the different variants? For example, there are people who are anxious about money, health, or shelter, people who are anxious in one-on-one situations, and people who are socially anxious.
> 
> I wonder if our first instinct is the one we've taken care of most, so we are fairly comfortable with. Our third instinct, we don't really care much for, so we're okay with as well. But our second instinct shows some importance to us but we may not be comfortable with. This is just a random theory, since for me, I'm confident in my ability to maintain my autonomy and resources. However, I'm very anxious in one-on-one situations! I thought this made me SP/SO because I am comfortable in groups of people, but in actuality I'm SP/SX, and I may be anxious because SX is sort of like a threat to my SP? Hmm...I wonder.


I'm anxious in social situations, most likely because I'm very aware of what is going on and get self conscious. However I don't like the group and being in a group makes me nervous. I have my own way of thinking, my own values and will never allow those to be subjugated by anything the group decides. It either falls in line with what I consider okay or I leave.

Wouldn't say I'm comfortable with "So" and have noticed a pattern where I avoid "So" all the time. I don't like being even remotely associated with that type of instinct because how I understood it was "being fake for the sake of the group, falling in line and accepting values and decisions made for me by some people on the outside of myself". It equates to giving up control over myself and my free will, which I personally find a) weak b) stupid c) dangerous d) repulsive (and there you have it my strong Sx).

It is interesting how I push against group values while I still fear breaking them. I fear being different and an outsider, fear going against established norms, but when the norms and values don't overlap with what I think and feel....there is no other choice but to break them and to fight against being part of that.

My preferred state is to be true to myself and in line with everyone else, but I can't have that all the time, so I chose not to be part of any group. I make alliances with individuals who are like I am. I'm just aware of the social structure, but have no wish to be part of it. It is difficult to identify as So when I view those types of things as unacceptable a lot of the time, but the attention that area of life receives from me is undeniable.

Sp on the other hand is something very comfortable...I seem to just fall into it when I'm sick or there is danger to my own well being. I'm pretty sure it overrides the other 2 functions when needed, but I lack the discipline and solidity (not sure how to express it) that all people with Sp seem to share, I need to make an effort and it is often boring for me to keep things tidy, make sure bills are payed and everything is in order. More often then not I'm swept up in some "current interest" and lose track of things.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Sp/Sx: I get obsessive over people and fall in love with them, in a sense, very easily. I want as close a relationship as possible. However, I fear their rejection and don't want relationship drama to upset my calm, ordered life.

Sx: I'm creatively inspired by those I most love and write tons of poetry about the people I love intensely.

Sx: I want my closest friends to have almost a romantic relationship with me -- pretty much a romantic relationship minus sex.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Rim said:


> I'm anxious in social situations, most likely because I'm very aware of what is going on and get self conscious. However I don't like the group and being in a group makes me nervous. I have my own way of thinking, my own values and will never allow those to be subjugated by anything the group decides. It either falls in line with what I consider okay or I leave.
> 
> Wouldn't say I'm comfortable with "So" and have noticed a pattern where I avoid "So" all the time. I don't like being even remotely associated with that type of instinct because how I understood it was "being fake for the sake of the group, falling in line and accepting values and decisions made for me by some people on the outside of myself". It equates to giving up control over myself and my free will, which I personally find a) weak b) stupid c) dangerous d) repulsive (and there you have it my strong Sx).
> 
> ...


Very interesting, @Rim! It sounds like you have a pretty complex relationship with your stacking variants. For me the discovery I was sp/sx was pretty easy, even though I don't always fit the idea of sp dominant (specifically descriptions of sp first enneagram 4 people as "Dauntless". That did confuse me a little.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Jennywocky said:


> It sounds nice on paper, but I don't know if that pans out at all IRL... at least not in such a broad, raw way. Part of the reason is that there can be different motivations tied up in expression of SO, SX, and SP traits, not just the ones listed.
> 
> And, to just borrow the obvious example, SO is easily my worst variant of the three, but I'm actually very compliant in terms of what skillset I developed. The SX is very intense for me, but coupled into a normally withdrawn personality (INP), if there is any aggression involved, it would be turned against myself and not others.... I would rather punish/isolate myself than intrude/cling to another individual and place demands on them, but if they want to be open to me, I will go as insanely deep as they'll allow, and I still feel that intensity of belonging to each other in a sense even if I will exert no level of possession on the other person because of the rest of my personality.


This is mostly true for me, too, though I do sometimes get clingy. I usually don't get aggressive in any other way, though. I am often compliant despite having a very low so variant.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I think we should concentrate on "the focus of attention". For example @Spades has a clear Sp focus of attention. I seem to focus on So in my own strange way. Regardless on how it manifests, the focus of attention is the clearest clue we have imo.

EDIT: something I forgot to note about So. The stacking has a chamelionic tendency when interacting with people. For example I get more logical when i'm with an NT, more understanding when with NF, if I have to talk to an introvert and he/she isn't initiating, then I will take over leading the conversation and talking more. With extroverts I just fill in the blanks and answer when a question is addressed ...So/Sx 'specialty is adaptation to one to one interaction. Which explains why I keep changing so much.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Excuse me for posting this here but...

* 1000th POST!!!!!!!*

If I'm going to spam, it might as well be on my own thread XD


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

unico said:


> @Spades, your theory that what's second in our stacking is what we have anxiety over. I'm pretty sure I'm sp/sx with a strong sx, but I have more anxiety over daily living stuff than I have anxiety over one-on-one situations. Maybe the fact that my sp and sx are almost tied makes it more natural for me/more understandable that I would still have more anxiety over sp issues than sx issues?


Actually, I have read somewhere (can't remember where) that the istinct that gives us more worries and tensions is the first one, the one we are always concerned about and always thinking about; the second one would be the one that is "natural" for us, in which we don't have to put an effort because it comes spontaneous.
(I am sorry I cannot give any reference, I have gone through so many sites about the Enneagram...).


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

Here's a discussion on the instincts. 

Excerpt: 


> The dominant variant is the one given top priority. What gets conscious attention, what causes those sleepless nights. Where your buttons get pushed and you start decompensating. Thus taking an elevator trip to a lower level of health. A lot of this behavior is unconscious. Self-growth happens if you can be present to when you act out of the instincts.
> 
> The secondary variant provides support to the first or is where you go on vacation from neurotic stuff. You don’t think about the operation of this instinct much, you're generally not stressed or neurotic about it. One is least self-conscious in this arena. Not a lot of issues are attached or projected.
> 
> ...


There still seems room for confusion or blurring, though. The first _and_ third variants can potentially get associated with shame and/or anxiety. For example, I think I'm social first — but it's also this arena where I feel deficient.


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## Giovanni (Nov 25, 2011)

@bamboozle: Thank you for finding the reference, this was exactly what I was referring to in my post.
It makes a lot of sense for me personally: I am always extremely concerned about SP matters, find it very easy to have intense relationships (for instance), and feel like I am definitely deficient in the SO area, but tend not to care much about it (basically tend to disregard this aspect of my life).


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Spades said:


> Well, if that existed, I would be a Ss variant =)
> 
> However, the variants are survival instincts. It can certainly be argued that introspection helps in our survival, but it was not considered one, perhaps because it's not tied to a gut instinct, but to a sort of "higher awareness" of oneself.
> 
> ...


LOL at "love me and/or die."


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## dollybones_90 (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't know my tritype. I definitely possess traits of all 3.

SP/SX: I can become very attached to certain people, which I consider a weakness and try to avoid

SO: I hate feeling "left out" and will avoid situations if I feel I'm not wanted there

SP: I don't like spending the night at other people's houses

SX?: I'm very sensitive to other people's moods and tend to pick them up


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

dollybones_90 said:


> SX?: I'm very sensitive to other people's moods and tend to pick them up


I've heard that this is more an SO trait than an SX one; that SX is almost solely concerned with attraction/repulsion and not that kind of consideration of others. I'm not an SX-dom, though, so I could be wrong on that. 

As an SO/SX, I find that I'm sensitive to other people's moods but particularly to their negative moods — perhaps because this would ruin my chances of connecting with them in a positive way. (This might be particular to me and inferior [and paranoid?] Fe, though. I think I know another SO/SX and she's faster to pick up positive moods).


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## bamboozle (Sep 3, 2011)

Giovanni said:


> @bamboozle: Thank you for finding the reference, this was exactly what I was referring to in my post.
> It makes a lot of sense for me personally: I am always extremely concerned about SP matters, find it very easy to have intense relationships (for instance), and feel like I am definitely deficient in the SO area, but tend not to care much about it (basically tend to disregard this aspect of my life).


You're welcome . 

Yeah, I think it does make sense*— eventually, anyway. I know that it was confusing to me at first because I don't consciously think of SO things at all. I can be paranoid about them but I wasn't conscious of where those anxieties were coming from. I thought that my anxieties were just there because I don't like to deal with them — so I deal with them last minute (which is how the last instinct is sometimes described). I'm more conscious of SP things. This is not necessarily because I'm bad at them but because I enjoy maintaining myself; just not to the extent or thoroughness of SP-doms. So, for a while, I figured I was SO-dom simply by default. That's not the case but I think the descriptions do leave ample room for that kind of confusion. 

(But that could just be me, too.)


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Thank you so much, @bamboozle ! That describes me so well -- the first variant being the one we struggle with. Years ago I would have said I have no self-preservation skills even though I now know I'm sp first. Sp issues are the ones that are most difficult for me to deal with, but most of my effort goes into them. Sexual issues are the most natural and easy for me. Social is far behind and is also difficult for me.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

bamboozle said:


> Here's a discussion on the instincts.
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> ...


This helped me a lot, thanks. 

I think the difference between the first and third, however, is the amount of time you spend focused on it. For example, this excerpt sealed it for me that I am self-pres first because I am obsessed with what it is I should be 'doing' with my life, what is the work that is my unique talent/calling. It has nothing to do with social acclaim, or benefitting others, or improving my relationships, or attracting a mate, it entirely has to do with my personal satisfaction.

I feel deficient socially and sometimes it bugs me, but the amount of time I focus on it is a minute fraction to the amount of time I spend on my self-pres concerns.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

brainheart said:


> This helped me a lot, thanks.
> 
> I think the difference between the first and third, however, is the amount of time you spend focused on it. For example, this excerpt sealed it for me that I am self-pres first because I am obsessed with what it is I should be 'doing' with my life, what is the work that is my unique talent/calling. It has nothing to do with social acclaim, or benefitting others, or improving my relationships, or attracting a mate, it entirely has to do with my personal satisfaction.
> 
> I feel deficient socially and sometimes it bugs me, but the amount of time I focus on it is a minute fraction to the amount of time I spend on my self-pres concerns.


Same with me, @brainheart ! Do you think your self-preservation is slightly more dominant than your sexual variant? That's how mine is -- they are almost equal, but it's definitely sp I struggle with and sx with which I'm most at ease.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

I still think sexual is my second variable, though I don't identify with a lot of the description on the Enneagram Institute that @bamboozle found. I am not a very "sexual" person in the physical sense -- in fact, I kind of hate sex because of my sexual dysfunction. But it *does* say that the sexual instinct doesn't have to revolve around the physical act, which I think is why I still identify with the sexual description. I have a lot of intense relationship-type energy and I apply it to a variety of close friends as well as my significant other. My love is not very different between "romantic love" and "friendship love." And I do relate more to the social instinct on the Enneagram Institute than in other descriptions -- I can be quite affectionate and I do care about people who I'm not closely involved with. I just don't care as much about fitting in socially.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

unico said:


> Same with me, @brainheart ! Do you think your self-preservation is slightly more dominant than your sexual variant? That's how mine is -- they are almost equal, but it's definitely sp I struggle with and sx with which I'm most at ease.


Yeah, mine are almost equal. I thought I was maybe sx-dom, but the sp I am obsessed with on a more regular basis. I thought for a long time that the fact that I suck at a lot of self-pres issues meant it couldn't be my dominant type, but now I understand that's not how it works. Also, 4w5 self-pres needs aren't quite the same as, say, a 6w7s. I don't have a job because I can't deal with the idea of devoting my time to someone else's agenda. I need to be working on my own thing, finding and developing my passion. And I need my time alone, I need to protect myself. I know you understand this, being bipolar as well, but I just can't put myself in situations anymore that jeopardize my health- and having to extrovert myself in unnatural ways sends me over the end. That said, being dependent financially on my husband also brings about its own level of stress, but it's less than having to interact with strangers all the time and deal with work schedules and fluorescent lighting, etc.

My goal now is to work on painting and home decoration and sell things on etsy/ maybe have a blog on my things, make some money that way.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

brainheart said:


> Yeah, mine are almost equal. I thought I was maybe sx-dom, but the sp I am obsessed with on a more regular basis. I thought for a long time that the fact that I suck at a lot of self-pres issues meant it couldn't be my dominant type, but now I understand that's not how it works. Also, 4w5 self-pres needs aren't quite the same as, say, a 6w7s. I don't have a job because I can't deal with the idea of devoting my time to someone else's agenda. I need to be working on my own thing, finding and developing my passion. And I need my time alone, I need to protect myself. I know you understand this, being bipolar as well, but I just can't put myself in situations anymore that jeopardize my health- and having to extrovert myself in unnatural ways sends me over the end. That said, being dependent financially on my husband also brings about its own level of stress, but it's less than having to interact with strangers all the time and deal with work schedules and fluorescent lighting, etc.
> 
> My goal now is to work on painting and home decoration and sell things on etsy/ maybe have a blog on my things, make some money that way.


I completely understand! I also need to focus on my health and can't work or go to school. Since I started Kindergarten on school was hell for me. This was due to my autism. My autism is still the primary reason I can't work, as my bipolar is usually under control with meds. Some people say I look the opposite of other autistics they've met or their preconceptions of autism, but the doctors all know that's what I have. I looked stereotypically autistic in childhood and it's always figured out that I have some kind of neurological condition (first described as "organic brain dysfunction" in early 2003 by a psychologist that didn't know enough about autism at the time). That said, I think autism is also part of why my social variant is so low, despite the fact that socially I have an easier time than many autistics I know.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

unico said:


> I still think sexual is my second variable, though I don't identify with a lot of the description on the Enneagram Institute that @bamboozle found.


What descriptions are those?


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

unico said:


> I completely understand! I also need to focus on my health and can't work or go to school. Since I started Kindergarten on school was hell for me. This was due to my autism. My autism is still the primary reason I can't work, as my bipolar is usually under control with meds. Some people say I look the opposite of other autistics they've met or their preconceptions of autism, but the doctors all know that's what I have. I looked stereotypically autistic in childhood and it's always figured out that I have some kind of neurological condition (first described as "organic brain dysfunction" in early 2003 by a psychologist that didn't know enough about autism at the time). That said, I think autism is also part of why my social variant is so low, despite the fact that socially I have an easier time than many autistics I know.


I feel like you have way better social skills than I do, for what it's worth. You're so nice and considerate and empathetic to everyone- very charming. I don't know a lot about autism, but I can tell you school was also hell for me, but mainly because I just wanted to be left alone to do my own thing.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

brainheart said:


> I feel like you have way better social skills than I do, for what it's worth. You're so nice and considerate and empathetic to everyone- very charming. I don't know a lot about autism, but I can tell you school was also hell for me, but mainly because I just wanted to be left alone to do my own thing.


Thank you, @brainheart ! I am very naive and have some in-person communication difficulties, which is where my main social issues lie in adulthood. People usually like me, which makes things easier. And through growing up and paying close attention to people I usually have an idea what would be inappropriate to say and avoid those things.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

@Giovanni and @bamboozle,

Thanks for the info! Based on that information, I'm Sp/So. Although, I wouldn't say I struggle with Sp. I'm really, really good at it =P But I suppose that's because it's at the forefront of my mind, so I can see how it would be stressful if it wasn't met (and it is!) As for So, I don't worry about that one much. I make friends pretty easily and have many people I love (though I don't see them often at all --> Sp). As for Sx, that one gives me stress because it's really difficult for me to get close and intimate with people. I feel like I'm intruding on personal boundaries when I do that. It's easy for me to hang out with 2-3 people (the optimal amount), but one-on-one just makes me really tense.

Based on aggressiveness though, I'm definitely Sp/Sx.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

brainheart said:


> What descriptions are those?


 [The sexual variant] "is NOT one-on-one. One-on-one—romance—is a heart issue. This is sometimes mistaken for an instinctual choice. In Nature, sexual reproduction helps to genetically diversify the species—conduces to survival. Russ calls this instinct “attraction.” It’s aggressive, competitive, single-minded, on display, the animal finds smells, stimulation. Use of energy is intensely creative, fiery, go-get-it, a life-and-death matter. E.g. salmon swimming upstream to mate and die.

We live in a sea of magnetism—attraction/repulsion—we don’t control this, or what we are drawn to. Most being-drawn doesn’t lead to the sexual act. We’re turned or not. It is what it is. You can’t fight mother nature. Attraction is smarter than social needs. Russ and Gayle gave the story of how someone has shown that arranged marriages conduce to a more stable society but one which is more susceptible to being wiped out by epidemics. Attraction has an unconscious intelligence. (pheremones)."

In relationship, there’s desire for endless engagement and fascination. One is captivated energetically by someone or something. Not after domestic simplicity. One can have the sexual instinct operating with friends—being in the heat. Stimulated, energized."

This seems to describe more sexual attraction than what I always thought of the sexual variant referred to. I *did* think it referred to one-on-one interaction, which is part of why I saw my sexual variant as strong. I am not usually competitive, but I can be competitive for the love and attention of those people I love most and obsess over. I am not repulsed by most people, though, despite the attraction/repulsion aspect of the sexual variant.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

unico said:


> [The sexual variant] "is NOT one-on-one. One-on-one—romance—is a heart issue. This is sometimes mistaken for an instinctual choice. In Nature, sexual reproduction helps to genetically diversify the species—conduces to survival. *Russ calls this instinct “attraction.” It’s aggressive, competitive, single-minded, on display, the animal finds smells, stimulation.* Use of energy is intensely creative, fiery, go-get-it, a life-and-death matter. E.g. salmon swimming upstream to mate and die.
> 
> *We live in a sea of magnetism—attraction/repulsion—we don’t control this, or what we are drawn to. *Most being-drawn doesn’t lead to the sexual act. *We’re turned or not. It is what it is. You can’t fight mother nature. Attraction is smarter than social needs. *Russ and Gayle gave the story of how someone has shown that arranged marriages conduce to a more stable society but one which is more susceptible to being wiped out by epidemics. Attraction has an unconscious intelligence. (pheremones)."
> 
> ...


I actually relate to what is bolded a lot. What I bolded of yours sounds like sexual instinct to me, and I'm the same way.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

unico said:


> I have a lot of intense relationship-type energy and I apply it to a variety of close friends as well as my significant other. My love is not very different between "romantic love" and "friendship love."


I'm exactly like this too! I really don't see the difference, except that in one case there is sexual (in the sex way, not Sx) attraction. Sx applies to friendship too. So I'm Sp/Sx.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Well it's definitely true I'm single-minded, I think I just find the idea of being "aggressive" repulsive (though that could also play into my sx instinct, given that attraction/repulsion is strong with sx!). I think it's due to my PTSD from my aggressive and abusive father (and brother, who actually wanted to kill me and I had to go into hiding). I don't want to think of myself like that. However, creatively I am very passionate and single-minded. I also pursue people with some degree of "aggression," I suppose. If I adore someone I will do almost anything to have a close and intense relationship with them.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

Spades said:


> I'm exactly like this too! I really don't see the difference, except that in one case there is sexual (in the sex way, not Sx) attraction. Sx applies to friendship too. So I'm Sp/Sx.


If sx includes friendship I am definitely best at sx and have it as my second variant! I pursue very intense friendships. Despite being sp dominant, I can't go a long time without seeing my favorite people without feeling a lot of pain. I am pretty sure sp is more dominant, though, because I struggle with those issues more than sx issues.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

@brainheart, I also wonder if maybe our tritypes are partly why I find socializing easier than you do? I'm a 4w3-6w7-9w1. 4w3 seems a lot more sociable than 4w5 and 6w7 more than 5...


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

unico said:


> @brainheart, I also wonder if maybe our tritypes are partly why I find socializing easier than you do? I'm a 4w3-6w7-9w1. 4w3 seems a lot more sociable than 4w5 and 6w7 more than 5...


Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it, plus Fe vs Fi.

From here, this sounds a lot like how you say you are with relationships (I'm the same way.): 


> sp/sx
> These people often have an earthy, mysterious quality to them. They are quietly intense, but to others may seem oblivious to the greater social world around them, instead favoring personal interests. They are slow to commit, but once they do it is with an attitude of life commitment, to the establishment of an impermeable bond. *Others can be taken aback by how suddenly and completely this type can lock into them, and by the depth of understanding of the other's condition. They attach to others at an organic, root level, in contrast to the other subvariant's surface formality.* Somewhat hesitant to enter new relationships, they instead preserve the select few enduring bonds they carefully form along the way. The sanctuary of home is of paramount concern, and this type takes particular delight in decorating their spaces to reflect their cherished sense of taste and depth. Depth and discrimination characterize this stacking.
> 
> Motivation: to live in a secure, comfortable environment where they can pursue their private interests in depth.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

brainheart said:


> Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it, plus Fe vs Fi.
> 
> From here, this sounds a lot like how you say you are with relationships (I'm the same way.):



I relate to everything in that sp/sx description! It's part of why I still think I'm sp/sx and not sp/so despite how some sx descriptions don't fit me perfectly. Thank you for showing this

And good point about the Fe vs. Fi difference! Sometimes I have difficulty understanding how I'm a type 4, yet Fe dominant. Yet I'm very sure I'm a type 4 and an INFJ.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm wondering if me loving intense music (the kind E9s love to avoid) is sx-ish behavior, or going to a rock concert and letting go, becoming consumed by the energy in the crowd and music (I love this one). Also taking stupid and unnecessary risks for the sake of enjoyment (like hiking upstream in a mountain river alone in the forest).

I don't really know how to describe this but losing myself in something intense is very enjoyable, but it isn't like I go skydiving or anything like that. I just like intensity, even in movies, videos, descriptions of scenes in books, wherever.

Some part of me really enjoyed having a difficult and heartbreaking relationship...because it was intense...I was alive with love and pain. (for some reason I miss it)...how fucked up is that?


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Rim said:


> I'm wondering if me loving *intense music* (the kind E9s love to avoid) is sx-ish behavior, or going to a rock concert and letting go, *becoming consumed by the energy in the crowd and music* (I love this one). Also taking stupid and *unnecessary risks* for the sake of enjoyment (like hiking upstream in a mountain river alone in the forest).


Me too! I think this is CP Six behaviour. Maybe. Or 6w7. Though Sevens do it too... probably more fearlessly.


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## Amanecer007 (Oct 14, 2009)

I am an enneagram type 9 sx/sp and I tend to be intense and passionate, yet somehow very withdrawn. I am assertive and I will immediately stand up to anyone who messes with the people I care about (sx dom). It takes me longer to stand up for myself (sp second). Also, when I am with the people I care about, I am fully present. Yet, as a type 9, I need a lot of time by myself without any noise to meditate and to feel like I still exist as my own person, outside of everyone else. When I don't get this quiet time by myself, I get irritable and snappy...I am incredibly ambivalent about getting into a romantic relationship because as a type 9 it is hard for me to separate myself from the other person and because I don't want to get distracted from my own goals. And as a 9, my sx dom makes me very uncomfortable. When I am around someone I am attracted to, I get nervous and I want to get away. I don't like getting overly excited. It's not as bad when I am in a relationship because my energy somehow gets balanced, but then I tend to lose myself.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

SX:

SX is said to be about intense energy and I agree. As others have said, SX is not about sex or even romance, it's about anyone or anything that interests me intellectually. Many things can arouse this intense, passionate energy which transforms me from my usual quiet, dull INTJ-self into this hyper-excited, loud, engaged person. If there is some intellectual pursuit that interests me that comes up in conversation I will start talking, perhaps for the first time ever. I will not just talk I will fill up the room. Often I am told that other people cannot get in a word edgewise and I have been told more than once by visibly nervous friends and colleagues to "calm down; there is no reason to be so loud". But I don't even realize I am being abnormal or loud! I am just too excited about _x_; I get lost in the topic and want other people to understand! 

Unfortunately, I am the same way in both romantic and friendly relationships. I crave intimacy for some reason, and most other people do not. Rejection has come too often so that now I more frequently fall back on my SP secondary instinct to just take care of myself and avoid other people. Still, that intimacy remains one of the most important, fulfilling attainments in life. For me intimacy, in any kind of relationship, is about finding someone who fascinates me, and who I can trust enough to engage in the kind of conversations that I can't enjoy with anyone else. 

For me, being a SX/SP means that there are two kinds of people in the world: people that mean the world to me, and people who mean absolutely nothing to me.


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

perennialurker said:


> For me, being a SX/SP means that there are two kinds of people in the world: people that mean the world to me, and people who mean absolutely nothing to me.


I related to all you said but this last part (I'm sp/sx). Everyone means *something* to me and I'm very emotionally affected by everyone I see in-person, on television, or read about. I care about everyone I know and nobody has ever meant "nothing" to me. I am repulsed by a couple of really not nice people I have known, but it's still a strong emotion I feel towards them.


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## perennialurker (Oct 1, 2009)

unico said:


> I related to all you said but this last part (I'm sp/sx). Everyone means *something* to me and I'm very emotionally affected by everyone I see in-person, on television, or read about. I care about everyone I know and nobody has ever meant "nothing" to me. I am repulsed by a couple of really not nice people I have known, but it's still a strong emotion I feel towards them.


That's interesting. I think this may have to do with type differences though, because the last statement was definitely NOT a mistake. If I meet people who are mean, or repulsive in some way I just ignore them very easily. Insults and attacks from most people just roll off my back, while minor snubs from people close to me can really hurt. I notice that you are an INFJ while I am an INTJ. Also you are a 4 (in the heart triad) while I am a 5w6 (in the head triad).


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

liz25 said:


> I am an enneagram type 9 sx/sp and I tend to be intense and passionate, yet somehow very withdrawn. I am assertive and I will immediately stand up to anyone who messes with the people I care about (sx dom). It takes me longer to stand up for myself (sp second). Also, when I am with the people I care about, I am fully present. Yet, as a type 9, I need a lot of time by myself without any noise to meditate and to feel like I still exist as my own person, outside of everyone else. When I don't get this quiet time by myself, I get irritable and snappy...I am incredibly ambivalent about getting into a romantic relationship because as a type 9 it is hard for me to separate myself from the other person and because I don't want to get distracted from my own goals. And as a 9, my sx dom makes me very uncomfortable. When I am around someone I am attracted to, I get nervous and I want to get away. I don't like getting overly excited. It's not as bad when I am in a relationship because my energy somehow gets balanced, but then I tend to lose myself.


o.o something about that doesn't strike me as 9...hmm...


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## Adesi (Aug 9, 2011)

*SO *reminds me of _The Selfish Gene._ Seemingly altruistic behaviours can really be traced to a propagation of survival for the gene for a group of organisms.

It's the mindset that "We can accomplish more working collectively together as a unit, than as a sum of individuals."


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

perennialurker said:


> That's interesting. I think this may have to do with type differences though, because the last statement was definitely NOT a mistake. If I meet people who are mean, or repulsive in some way I just ignore them very easily. Insults and attacks from most people just roll off my back, while minor snubs from people close to me can really hurt. I notice that you are an INFJ while I am an INTJ. Also you are a 4 (in the heart triad) while I am a 5w6 (in the head triad).


Oh no! I wasn't trying to say you were wrong! I was just comparing and found that interesting. That would make sense, what you say about 4 vs. 5 since 4 is a heart type and 5 is a mental type!


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

perennialurker said:


> That's interesting. I think this may have to do with type differences though, because the last statement was definitely NOT a mistake. If I meet people who are mean, or repulsive in some way I just ignore them very easily. Insults and attacks from most people just roll off my back, while minor snubs from people close to me can really hurt. I notice that you are an INFJ while I am an INTJ. Also you are a 4 (in the heart triad) while I am a 5w6 (in the head triad).


I'd also attribute it to type difference. I'm a 4w5 and I'm the same way as you about people (although I can't say people attack me all that often). Similarly, though, compliments from those who don't matter to me don't even really register. Maybe a bit 5, a bit fi vs fe use?


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## unico (Feb 3, 2011)

That makes sense, too, @brainheart. Like we discussed earlier about how we differ probably due to Fe vs. Fi.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

brainheart said:


> Motivation: to live in a secure, comfortable environment where they can pursue their private interests in depth.


Yep, I'm Sp/Sx.



perennialurker said:


> If there is some intellectual pursuit that interests me that comes up in conversation I will start talking, perhaps for the first time ever. I will not just talk I will fill up the room. Often I am told that other people cannot get in a word edgewise and I have been told more than once by visibly nervous friends and colleagues to "calm down; there is no reason to be so loud". But I don't even realize I am being abnormal or loud! I am just too excited about _x_; I get lost in the topic and want other people to understand!


Interesting. This is one of the many reasons I'm considering ENFP as opposed to INTJ for myself. Do you think this is at all related to Sx? Maybe, but I'm not sure.


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

:\ I cant tell if I'm ENFP or INFP tbh...because of the "merging with the outside' sx thing. Just didn't chose E because the ENFP descriptions are nothing like me. Theoretically I should be ENFP, but really I'm not.

For example I lack the "quiet recharge time" of INFPs. I don't like quiet much and prefer noise and people around me, but at the same time I don't want to talk or interact with anyone ...just listen to music, read, watch something or preferably all at once. I really like non social activities when drained :\.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Rim said:


> :\ I cant tell if I'm ENFP or INFP tbh...because of the "merging with the outside' sx thing. Just didn't chose E because the ENFP descriptions are nothing like me. Theoretically I should be ENFP, but really I'm not.
> 
> For example I lack the "quiet recharge time" of INFPs. I don't like quiet much and prefer noise and people around me, but at the same time I don't want to talk or interact with anyone ...just listen to music, read, watch something or preferably all at once. I really like non social activities when drained :\.


Screw descriptions.

Do you perceive more or judge more? i.e. What's your data collection/decision ratio? Do you have more ideas than you can structure rationally? That's my case, so I'm dominant intuitive. Not really much to do with introvert vs extrovert, if we're talking cognitive functions.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

7w6
So/Sx: Steve Erwin
So/Sp: Conan O'Brien
Sp/So: Steven Covey
Sp/Sx: Kevin Rose
Sx/Sp: Antonio Banderas
Sx/So: Freddy Mercury

7w8
So/Sx: Quentin Tarantino
So/Sp: Alec Baldwin
Sp/So: Newt Gingrich
Sp/Sx: Hugh Hefner
Sx/Sp: Wolverine
Sx/So: Ke$ha


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@Swordsman of Mana
Antonio Banderas is a 3w2 sx/so for sure.


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## The Scorched Earth (May 17, 2010)

Sx-first: Coming off intensely toward people, taking an almost obsessive interest in a select few people, feeling constantly bored and frustrated. Sometimes envy plays a role.

So-last: Being oblivious to what people are into/not being interested. Little interest in "having your finger on the pulse of society." But at the same time, not making such a big deal of being an outcast; it's just a matter of fact.


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## mushr00m (May 23, 2011)

Ice Ghost said:


> Sx-first: Coming off intensely toward people, taking an almost obsessive interest in a select few people, feeling constantly bored and frustrated. Sometimes envy plays a role.
> 
> So-last: Being oblivious to what people are into/not being interested. Little interest in "having your finger on the pulse of society." But at the same time, not making such a big deal of being an outcast; it's just a matter of fact.


Im not sure what to class envy as, a trait or reaction or even a habitual emotion, not sure if it is related to instincts anymore than it related to type 3 and 4. That definitely makes sense about so influenced people having this pulse or awareness of society at large and social dynamics, it doesn't necessarily equal social confidence but rather where the attention is.


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## Sonny (Oct 14, 2008)

*So/Sx*

There is a drive within me to join different groups, multiple and varied ones because I feel alive and valued within them, and yet it is also an experience I pull away from or remain on the edges of as there is a feeling of obligation when I get too involved, and I resist when I feel obligated. I like to be able to pick up and leave without notice, or being noticed. To be able to take in the energy of an established community, without being at the centre. In many ways I identify with the So descriptions that talk about the anti-social aspect, not in a manner that many may take that term to mean, I blend into groups and would be welcomed into a key part if I desired, but I need to remain separate from them. I can't spend too much time with the same group or obligation and stagnation creep in, I'm always chasing that place where I can feel I fit in, yet never seeing it where I am.

I find value through how I'm perceived by a group, I don't liken it to status however, it's more important to me to be deemed likeable than to have status. I don't relate to the So descriptions about always knowing the status of others within a group either, that's likely because it's not something that fits a rating system, and it's not something I could or would write down with a pecking order, it's unspoken and more about how much respect and sway one person has with those around them, who is considered admirable by their peers. I'm not convinced I use this information much, it's more of a blueprint into the socially accepted behaviours within that group.

My E9 motivations mixed with leading Social instinct mean I am hyper-aware of the underlying emotional currents of a group and what I need to do in any social situation in order to fit in and be likeable, without exerting effort.

The blind spots I have with So surround my insecurities with not being accepted into a group, as much as I don't want to join groups for the obligation that brings, I want to be accepted within them, to be someone who would always be welcomed without investing. I want to be seen as someone who is knowledgeable and respectable within that group, not a shit-kicker at the bottom of the pile, and not someone easily replaced. The belief that I have been rejected by a group cuts me.

*Sx* doesn't seem to cause me as many issues as when it crops up in a way that I am uncomfortable with (ie too deep, too fast) I fall back onto So behaviours, seeking breadth over depth. I do love intense experiences though, and the more passionate someone is the more interested I am in knowing them and their passion intimately. Intensity can scare me in certain situations, but it normally draws me in. 

*Sp* needs are simply things I do not value. I have a hard time focusing on practical needs.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

*Disclaimer*: When I made this thread, my Enneagram knowledge was much more limited. I am now of the strong opinion that instinctual subtype cannot be separated from core Enneagram type. One should only determine their instinctual stacking once they have confirmed their core type.

Here are a couple resources on the matter:

Naranjo's Subtypes

Enneagram Worldwide:
Self Pres / Sexual / Social

Please strongly consider this. Certain types naturally _*appear*_ like certain subtypes (e.g. Sp 5) but can be any of the 6 combinations.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Spades said:


> *Disclaimer*: When I made this thread, my Enneagram knowledge was much more limited. I am now of the strong opinion that instinctual subtype cannot be separated from core Enneagram type. One should only determine their instinctual stacking once they have confirmed their core type.
> Here are a couple resources on the matter:
> Naranjo's Subtypes
> Enneagram Worldwide:
> ...


I strongly disagree with this. the two systems interact with each other, but I think they are completely separate (actually, I often think instinct variant is a more significant influence on behavior than either MBTI or Enneagram)


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

@_Spades_, I agree to an extent. For example, when reading instincts individually (out of the context of the enneagram type) or if I take an instinct test I come out as definitively sexual dom, self pres second. But that's because I'm a four and a lot of the traits of the sexual instinct are quite similar to the desires and motivations of four. And then I read enneagram four sexual instinct descriptions and it's... wrong, while the self pres four makes more sense. 

That said, I think my confusion also had to do with the fact that self-pres instinct descriptions emphasize finance, food, and exercise while those aren't exactly my priorities. I mean, I'm an INFP 4w5 for crying out loud, not exactly the most practical type, not to mention self pres fours kind of engage in a lot of atypical self preservation activity. This instinct description @_sleeper_ linked me to is amazing and really cleared it up for me, the sp/sx resonated hard: Socionics - the16types.info - Notes on the instincts

I also recommend these descriptions:http://enneagramdimensions.net/articles/chart_27_subtypes.pdf#start The self pres four describes me in a perfect nutshell. I'm not sure how well it works for others, though, I'd be curious to know.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I strongly disagree with this. the two systems interact with each other, but I think they are completely separate (actually, I often think instinct variant is a more significant influence on behavior than either MBTI or Enneagram)


True, those are separate systems and also I like to investigate them as such. Instinctual variants are powerful and should not be overshadowed by Enneagram. Variants explain my personal relationships better than Enneagram types. It's all about chemistry IMO.




brainheart said:


> For example, when reading instincts individually (out of the context of the enneagram type) or if I take an instinct test I come out as definitively sexual dom, self pres second. But that's because I'm a four and a lot of the traits of the sexual instinct are quite similar to the desires and motivations of four. And then I read enneagram four sexual instinct descriptions and it's... wrong, while the self pres four makes more sense.


Yeah, these are separate systems but it doesn't mean they couldn't seem similar at first glance. I have realized that me being sx-dom is why some people like my SO still refuse to believe that I'm a Six, not a Four. Intense, dramatic, passionate, intimacy seeking, not caring what other people in general think? _Yes! _

On the other hand, sp instinct may resemble type Six. There's the reactivity against threats to survival, worrying, anxiety. How to differentiate it from core Six? Well, my brother seems sp/so 962 to me and he is rather Sixish at times but just lacks the general reactivity of Sixes and doesn't seem to be at all compliant like Sixes. He's never been capable of rebelling or going against others, he goes with the flow and that's what he wants. He's incredibly lazy and comfort and pleasure seeking. Very sweet and kind though  My mum is also sp/so and shares his tritype but is clearly core Six. She's just _so_ phobic and anxious and worrying and very reactive that it's easy to differentiate those two when compared with each other.


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## StellarTwirl (Jul 1, 2012)

brainheart said:


> @_Spades_, I agree to an extent. For example, when reading instincts individually (out of the context of the enneagram type) or if I take an instinct test I come out as definitively sexual dom, self pres second. But that's because I'm a four and a lot of the traits of the sexual instinct are quite similar to the desires and motivations of four. And then I read enneagram four sexual instinct descriptions and it's... wrong, while the self pres four makes more sense.
> 
> That said, I think my confusion also had to do with the fact that self-pres instinct descriptions emphasize finance, food, and exercise while those aren't exactly my priorities. I mean, I'm an INFP 4w5 for crying out loud, not exactly the most practical type, not to mention self pres fours kind of engage in a lot of atypical self preservation activity. This instinct description @_sleeper_ linked me to is amazing and really cleared it up for me, the sp/sx resonated hard: Socionics - the16types.info - Notes on the instincts
> 
> I also recommend these descriptions:http://enneagramdimensions.net/articles/chart_27_subtypes.pdf#start The self pres four describes me in a perfect nutshell. I'm not sure how well it works for others, though, I'd be curious to know.



Yeah, the bolded portion of this 4 sp description is crucial ...



> Artisans: Independent creators whoo en work alone to manifest their cre-ative vision; tend to *view survival moreas metaphorical than literal*


... because when I read generalized sp descriptions all I can think is: _What?? There is nothing practical or domestic about me. And I don't give a damn about having a family either. ???_

And the breakdown here... *http://personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/110177-instincts-descriptions-fours.html* ... goes even further, making the 4-sp sound physically self-destructive. A 4-sp reading the general sp descriptions would probably struggle to see themselves at all.


But, unlike you, I do relate very strongly to every 4 sx description I've read. And I'm starting to wonder if the only reason I see myself as an sp-dom at all is because I've been letting my 5-wing get out of control ... 5s are all about boundaries.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

@Spades @Swordsman of Mana and whoever else is listening.

I'm about split on this issue. For a long time, I just figured myself for an sp-first because I don't want to get hurt or sick, I like good food, and I'm ok talking about day-to-day life with people. I would have guessed sx-second or -last because I feel I lack the charisma and intensity we are supposed to share. The Socionics article basically confirmed this to me--I seem like an sp/sx.

On the other hand, finding my instincts amid the horrific descriptions of my type online actually made the job harder. I don't see myself in _any_ usual descriptions of my type and it's stackings, and that's why I would keep looking at other types. Finding my instincts and type had to happen at the same time; I didn't fully accept my type until I saw myself in the sx-instinct, and I didn't fully accept the instincts until I realized it made sense for my type.

While I thought I was a 7, sp/sx made absolutely perfect sense. It still does, superficially. So, it's possible to be mistyped and still accurately see oneself in the instincts. I think folks are gonna have to take their own route on this, and it may be different for everyone.

My own two cents on this are that instincts and enneagram are indeed separate; however, I find that I am unable to determine if tertiary-Fe and inferior-Si are the same thing as being sx/soc--or if I'm sx/sp and my functions are causing me to misinterpret what's what.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

yeah @_holyrockthrower_
I recommend figuring out your instinct separate from the core type. Also, people need to figure out their primary instinct and really learn how it impacts them before delving into the stackings. The core type needs to be discovered first and foremost. But, reading descriptions of instinct+type can be misleading for strictly self typing purposes. I browsed some descriptions, and while I definitely relate to sp 3, I also relate to sp 7 and 8. My 1w2-5w6-3w4 sp/sx ENTJ friend totally relates to the sp 8 description.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

@holyrockthrower


> Avenging Crusader + Flamboyant Diva = me


^you think you don't have charisma? you might not be a Lady Gaga or a Maria Callas, but clearly you have _some_ flair (you just don't have as much because you don't have Fi lol)

I agree though, it's different for everyone. apart from recent emotional events stirring me up a little bit, I've been sure I was Sp/Sx since well before I knew my core type (for a lot of people, I think that instinctual variants are obvious very obvious and easy to spot and I disagree with @Spades on this issue)


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Boss said:


> yeah @_holyrockthrower_
> I recommend figuring out your instinct separate from the core type. *Also, people need to figure out their primary instinct and really learn how it impacts them before delving into the stackings*. The core type needs to be discovered first and foremost. But, reading descriptions of instinct+type can be misleading for strictly self typing purposes. I browsed some descriptions, and while I definitely relate to sp 3, I also relate to sp 7 and 8. My 1w2-5w6-3w4 sp/sx ENTJ friend totally relates to the sp 8 description.


I disagree with this too. I think often it's easier to find your last instinct and then decide the relationship between the first two than to decide first which is your primary drive.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> @_holyrockthrower_
> 
> ^you think you don't have charisma?


Lol. I've certainly got "flair" but that doesn't make me charismatic.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> Lol. I've certainly got "flair" but that doesn't make me charismatic.


the two are synonymous to me. what do you think the difference is?


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I disagree with this too. I think often it's easier to find your last instinct and then decide the relationship between the first two than to decide first which is your primary drive.


Figuring out your primary instinct is crucial (more important, initially, than the entire stacking), and for most people it's more straightforward to go from primary-->last. If it works for you to go from your last instinct to first, then that's fine, of course.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> the two are synonymous to me. what do you think the difference is?


I think of _charisma_ as being able to influence and inspire people, build a following, have folks admire you, that sort of thing. I think of _flair_ as just being sort of flamboyant and/or artistic. I am the latter, but truth be told, that has never really translated into being the former for me. 

It's another reason I don't see myself in Type 6--I've never really been all that "likeable" or "relatable". I can be "charming" enough for me to get my own way, but that's about the extent of it.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Boss said:


> Figuring out your primary instinct is crucial (more important, initially, than the entire stacking), and for most people it's more straightforward to go from primary-->last. If it works for you to go from your last instinct to first, then that's fine, of course.


I guess the reason I think so is because the relationship between the first and second instinct is often more complicated and harder to pinpoint accurately. whereas it's often much easier to say "I have clear Sx influence, clear Sp influence and little to no So influence" 

it's similar to how in MBTI I honestly don't put a lot of weight in what someone's dominant function is. I know my Ne and Fi are both off the charts, so which one is my dominant function doesn't frankly matter to me, but what i think I/E is really helpful for is your Tertiary and Inferior functions. the 4th function is generally the Achilles heel of a type whereas the 3rd is often reasonably strong and can be relied on when the dom and aux functions aren't sufficient to get the job done (and this is the reason I type as an ENFP and not an INFP, despite my substantial Fi)

in short, I'm more interested in "what influences are affecting/not affecting my personality significantly?" rather than "which influences are stronger in me than others?"


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> I think of _charisma_ as being able to influence and inspire people, build a following, have folks admire you, that sort of thing. I think of _flair_ as just being sort of flamboyant and/or artistic. I am the latter, but truth be told, that has never really translated into being the former for me.
> It's another reason I don't see myself in Type 6--I've never really been all that "likeable" or "relatable". I can be "charming" enough for me to get my own way, but that's about the extent of it.


by your definition, I have tons of flair but little charisma


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> by your definitely, I have tons of flair but little charisma


And by yours, I have tons of both!


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## Jewl (Feb 28, 2012)

I suppose I'll try this. My knowledge on instinctual variants is limited. I'm Sp/So, and I will say that it was hard to distinguish Sp/So from So/Sp and even descriptions of So/Sx rang true with me. I think that is because of Ne, though. The best way to figure it out for me was to look at the instincts one by one and figure out from greatest to least which ones I relied on most. ^^ Haha. 

*Sp: *In nature, I am not 'withdrawn', actually. I am ambiverted in temperament, but I'm definitely a people-person. The thing is while I enjoy people and even like 'fitting in' with a group or connecting with a person deeply, I do not rely on those things. My mindset is simply this: It is me against whatever is out there, and I am the only sure thing that I'll constantly be able to rely on. I need to rely on my own instincts. 

Yeah, it's me against everything, and therefore I think it necessary to have a certain control over my environment. 

I am comforted when I have some measure of control over what is going on and the circumstances. When something starts getting in between me and what I think is necessary for my survival (which are usually seemingly 'basic' things), I start feeling very uncomfortable. I don't look it, but I am quite selfish in this regard. Since where I live, my Sp-desires are often easily met and I appear more selfless than I actually am. It is my instinct first and foremost to give _myself_ basic necessities, which are the things that make me feel comforted the most. I suppose it's kind of an _every man for himself _mentality.

Of course, there are also other people out there too, and I could get hurt. Therefore it is a good plan to make myself look harmless and blend in to the scenery. The idea of not being all that noticeable is a very appealing one. 

I think the aspect of "I shouldn't stand out too much" is also part of Sp somewhat... or at least it is within me. Haha. Maybe that's So colouring this description. ^_^

*So: *Secondary to the _me against everything else _mindset there is a sort of -- I should become part of a people because they offer protection -- sort of mindset. When my Sp-desires are met, I feel like fitting in with some people is a really good method of survival. It's not my primary instinct because as soon as something starts stepping on my Sp-desires which I feel are greatly linked to my survival, I once again focus on that Sp mindset. 

It is important for me in the group to be likable, and again, I like to blend in. I feel as though I have super extra protection from the world when 1) I've got that "control" and feel like everything is "safe" for now and 2) now I've got a group backing me up. Safety in numbers. 

Again, I dislike the idea of standing out. I constantly feel it's a good idea to blend in. So when there's a group of people, I am careful to study them and effectively make myself look similar to them as well. Otherwise I am afraid that the environment will turn hostile, and that would be bad. 

*When both my Sp-desires and So-desires are not met, I feel extremely vulnerable. 

Sx: *I'm sure there is some measure of this within me, somewhere. But I do not find simply relying on someone and feeling a deep connection with one person sufficient. I am not aggressive. And Sx is very much "Stand out!". If anything, this makes me feel vulnerable and uncomfortable more than anything else. 

I think an example of this would be that one time it was planned that my best friend and I would travel to New York City together, just the two of us. And for whatever reason, I felt uneasy. I'd never been to the city before. I didn't know the nature of it. I didn't feel adequately ready to be placed there. I felt like that control was being stripped away from me and I was going to be plucked from a place I was familiar with and placed into a very unfamiliar strange and possibly dangerous environment. I had to mentally begin going through things and started "preparing" in my head for stuff. It was really odd. Especially considering she, my friend, knew New York City very well. 

At the same time I wouldn't have "my people" around me, so I couldn't even fall on that. 

It was _just_ me and her, and that didn't feel like enough to me. The only thing that helped was that I had known her since we were babies, really, so even though it was hard and I felt vulnerable, I knew I could trust her. Eventually throughout the day in the city as I grew accustomed to how it felt and saw in which ways I could gain some of that control back, I felt much more at ease.


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@holyrockthrower

Quite a few 6s don't have likeable personalities. lol. They are intriguing, original etc. but not necessarily 'likeable'. The 4 fixed 6s are very likely not very 'relateable' either, nor would they necessarily see themselves as such.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Boss said:


> @holyrockthrower
> 
> Quite a few 6s don't have likeable personalities. lol. They are intriguing, original etc. but not necessarily 'likeable'. The 4 fixed 6s are very likely not very 'relateable' either, nor would they necessarily see themselves as such.


What has been your personal experience as to why 6's don't have likeable personalities ? Curious  I haven't ever been told i don't have a loveable personality. My friends would describe me as cute, funny, adorable and interesting  I don't necessarily see myself the same way they do, i see my negative traits, something that is off putting at times to myself personally. Then again are they negative traits i ask myself, is being too direct and shooting from the hip a bad thing. Is being overly protective and guarded and bad thing. I've always gotten everything i ever wanted by plowing my way through life, not letting people tell me what is good for me. Maybe because i don't care what other people think or how they perceive me i don't pick up on subtle cues when others feel i'm not very likeable, could be. I must watch for that ^-^


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## Sina (Oct 27, 2010)

@_MuChApArAdOx_

I said "quite a few" not all 6s. When I think of the typically 'likeable' personality, I picture someone very affable, nice etc. What I was saying there was not that 6s don't have personalities that can be liked/enjoyed, but that they can have unconventional, defiant personalities that aren't "conventionally" likeable. There are a lot (again not all) of 4 fixed 6s (esp. cp) who are not very relateable and conventionally 'likeable' because they stand apart so much, so most people may find them intriguing and original but not particularly open hearted, cheerful, etc.


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## sodden (Jul 20, 2009)

StellarTwirl said:


> Yeah, the bolded portion of this 4 sp description is crucial ... _Artisans: Independent creators who often work alone to manifest their creative vision; tend to _*view survival more as metaphorical than literal*


Yeah, the bolded describes the outlook perfectly, I totally agree. I read that and knew I couldn't be anything else.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> It's another reason I don't see myself in Type 6--I've never really been all that "likeable" or "relatable". I can be "charming" enough for me to get my own way, but that's about the extent of it.



Im the exact same way. Not really likable or relatable. But am I charming enough to get my own way? Yes. I found this exchange on EI forum describing the nature of the 614 tritype:



> > You were entertaining 641 which to me is the grim, bleak, opinionated, righteous, reactionary (1s are reactive but especially 1w2s are an honorary reactive type in my book) incensed tritype, sometimes 'missionary', but in your sp/sx case with an abrasive, antisocial flair. Plus, if you're going with 6w5~4w5~1w9 (plus sp/sx), would be particularly churlish and irascible, and hermity. I see 641 as 'carrying a lot'.
> > [HR][/HR]​
> 
> 
> ...



THis is the perfect description for the 614 tritype. Especially with 2 five wings and a 1w2 fix. I have no idea why people are under the impression that this is a friendlier tritype when it most definitely is not. I think you have a very limited view of how 6s can be probably because most of the 6 descriptions have a heavy 6w7 influence in them and as you've noticed, they can be rather positive and friendly. 6w5s especially when sp dom with 1/8 fixes and 4 fixed can be assholes. The word churlish really describes their behavior well. It means rude in a mean spirited way.:laughing: I thought it describe me quite well.


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## MuChApArAdOx (Jan 24, 2011)

Boss said:


> @_MuChApArAdOx_
> 
> I said "quite a few" not all 6s. When I think of the typically 'likeable' personality, I picture someone very affable, nice etc. What I was saying there was not that 6s don't have personalities that can be liked/enjoyed, but that they can have unconventional, defiant personalities that aren't "conventionally" likeable. There are a lot (again not all) of 4 fixed 6s (esp. cp) who are not very relateable and conventionally 'likeable' because they stand apart so much, so most people may find them intriguing and original but not particularly open hearted, cheerful, etc.


There could be some truth to that, although i don't correlate my unconventional ways with my ENNG. ENFP are notorious for going against the grain in terms of conventionally. My Te-Ne-Fi become irritated when forced or pressured into universal truths. This will lead to defiance on my part, I don't want to be part of " Group think " sort of speak. I can see how this would be a turn off for those who take more of a stance subjectively in terms of what is expected in society.

I agree, i don't wear my heart on my sleeve, that is for sure. Again, this for me is more about Fi than my Enng. I suppose because i don't trust easily ( stemming from 6 ), it can make me appear colder and not so attached emotionally ( stemming from both Enng, and MBti -Fi ) I'm actually very cheerful, just not over the top bubbly and strung out. This likely derives from my Enng also. I smile often, although do admit when i'm concentrating or observing something intensely, i may have a blank/or awkward look on my face


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Chipps said:


> I think you have a very limited view of how 6s can be probably because most of the 6 descriptions have a heavy 6w7 influence in them


All I can say to that is, there is a reason why I haven't seen much of myself in most type descriptions over the last 10 or so years.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I disagree with this too. I think often it's easier to find your last instinct and then decide the relationship between the first two than to decide first which is your primary drive.


And again I agree with you! Obviously, the way the strengths of instincts vary contributes to this. Some have three steps that are pretty easy to distinguish. In that case it's more straightforward to solve the stacking.

But this isn't always the case. Some people have either two stronger instincts and one clearly weaker or one very strong instinct and two weaker ones. In the first case it's easier to solve the last instinct and in the second case it's easier to solve the first instinct. 

To decide between two instincts that seem to be close to each other can definitely be challenging. What has worked for me is thinking the instincts as some kind of vibes. After all, isn't that what instincts are about? At least I perceive them as such. I feel the vibes someone is (or is _not_) sending, it's the energies that seem so different. Well, to some extent all that might tell more about me than about knowing this in general but anyway, that has been helpful.




Boss said:


> Quite a few 6s don't have likeable personalities. lol. They are intriguing, original etc. but not necessarily 'likeable'. The 4 fixed 6s are very likely not very 'relateable' either, nor would they necessarily see themselves as such.





holyrockthrower said:


> It's another reason I don't see myself in Type 6--I've never really been all that "likeable" or "relatable". I can be "charming" enough for me to get my own way, but that's about the extent of it.


Same here, what the qualified @Boss said is what I think too  I'm not a people person, not a bit group-oriented, not political and definitely not "the buddy" 6w7s are sometimes described as. I do not need to be likeable... actually it's almost the contrary. If I was widely popular, I'd assume there's something wrong with me xD I don't relate to people in general and I certainly don't want "people in general" to relate to me!




Julia Bell said:


> Again, I dislike the idea of standing out. I constantly feel it's a good idea to blend in. So when there's a group of people, I am careful to study them and effectively make myself look similar to them as well. Otherwise I am afraid that the environment will turn hostile, and that would be bad.


Based on the knowledge I have from other 6s I actually know, I have to conclude it's most often the one-to-one, _sx_ 6 who is the different one. _Sx_-last 6s seem to value relating and getting along a lot more, they have more natural social skills (or so it seems) and they are more likeable. Sure, _sx_-doms can be that too but like I said, most often they are the different ones who don't even have the motivation for that.

I, for example, have no need to belong in or relate to a group. I even was completely oblivious to the benefits of having networks or groups until quite recently. Now I can see how other people just have to be in a group and how I have always avoided it. I try to find my soul mate wherever I go, that's where my motivations are. I've never had a group of friends whom all I would regularly spend my time with. I don't need that, quite the contrary, I find it irritating if group activities are even suggested. Even when I get it why some might be tempted by threesome, it's twosome I want 




Julia Bell said:


> And Sx is very much "Stand out!". If anything, this makes me feel vulnerable and uncomfortable more than anything else.


I think I'd feel extremely uncomfortable if I didn't - stand out at least somehow  For example, I don't pay attention to fashion and I have never wanted to be fashionable "just like everyone else" or "like one should" (I do not make this but hear these from my SO who knows fashion a lot better than I do and wishes I would be more like others and less like... myself). I don't understand why I should. If I ever by accident have something that is extremely popular, I will lose my interest the minute I realize it. My SO finds this mostly annoying, so does my mum who is also 6w7 sp/so 

Actually, now that I think of it, variants are one big factor explaining _why_ there are so different kind of 6s! But I'm glad there are, I would only be lost without my SO who is the stabilizer in my life


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## LibertyPrime (Dec 17, 2010)

Boss said:


> @holyrockthrower
> 
> Quite a few 6s don't have likeable personalities. lol. They are intriguing, original etc. but not necessarily 'likeable'. The 4 fixed 6s are very likely not very 'relateable' either, nor would they necessarily see themselves as such.


I'm highly "likable". Anyone who has ever met me in person would say that in general my demeanor is that of a smiling cute puppy. I can be very innocently charming and especially women get atached to me in a motherly way.

I often say I could probably get away with murder because of this (good thing I have a strong conscience huh?).

Guys are typically not responsive to this thou and I tend to be on the war path with most.... >D and yeah I win because I'm a cunning son of a bitch who knows how to navigate situations, can read people well enough.

sp/sx 6w7 something between ENTP and INFP...idk about MBTI.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

I thought to add some specific examples too.

My dad and one of my best friends are *sp/sx*. Both care about their physical comfort a lot, seem somehow a little shy and withdrawn, quite private. Both have few special things they're very passionate about. Both have a few deep long-lasting relationships but don't spend time in groups. Neither cares much about status and recognition or if they are different. I think neither of them even realize they seem a little odd at times  I mean this totally only positively to INFPs but both of them seem INFP to me  Sure, there are other kind of sp/sx too.

My mum and my younger brother are *sp/so*. How they differ from sp/sx version is that they do value and think what other people think, what is accepted, how to relate to others, what is their place in the society. They are not passionate but they're warm. They're perfectly happy when healthy and comfortable _and_ in good terms with everyone. Both are careful not to be too different from others. Both want to look good but in a very appropriate way more than sexy. My brother is much more in tune with things like fashion and people. Sometimes I wonder whether he's actually so/sp but then again, he does have that anxious tendency to worry about physical issues and he's also more withdrawn than sociable. Anyway, his sense of style is admirable and he knows what's in.

I'm the only *sx/sp* I know so I'll just compare myself to the previous examples. I do not really pay attention to what people think and if I do, it doesn't affect me much since I only care whether I can get positive attention from certain individuals. To them, I must seem attractive, seductive, similar enough to be able to relate and merge. Also I want to look good but for me it means more looking attractive, not appropriate. It's not that I wouldn't look appropriate (well, sometimes I don't ha-ha) but I just don't consider it so important whether I do or don't. I don't have to feel I relate to others or that I am accepted by others in general. And I don't value my physical health or comfort as much as sp-doms, life has to have intensity and to get that, I can sacrifice my comfort. But I have much more _capacity _to pay my attention to my financial or health issues than for example my so/sx brother. When I exercise, it's not because of popularity or my friends but because I want to look sexy and fit and be healthy.

My older brother is *so/sx*. He's very much a people person. He's two years younger than I am and when I had been two years in high school, he got there too. During the first weeks he knew most of the other people there (and there were hundreds), at least the ones he thought were most worth to know. I knew perhaps the people in my own class and only one of them well. He even accused me of being totally anti-social and lacking the necessary networks. He's extremely aware of what is acceptable, in, most wanted etc. When healthy, he's warm and the most charismatic person I know, and people tend to like or at least admire him easily. At worst he ignores his financial and health issues completely and it's extremely sad to watch.

For a long time, I've been unsure whether someone I know intimately is so/sp or sp/so. Since his social instinct is at least quite strong, I'll use him as an example of *so/sp* even when he just might be sp/so. Like my brothers, he's rather aware of what is in and acceptable. He values appropriateness and relating much more than I do. He wants to know he's part of society and that he plays his part well. He likes going to work because there'll be so many people he finds likeable and easy to talk to. He's usually very warm and sympathetic from the beginning and people like him very easily. But he is also very good at taking care of life's necessities and extremely aware of the state of his body. This might be a cognitive function difference too but it's just weird to hear him describing how his stomach and his whole body feels after dinner since my own perceptions are just "Today I eat... tomorrow I defecate" xD But he is not at all intense or searching for excitement. Passionate he can be but it's not what he most often is. In that sense he's very different from my so/sx brother who can be very intense and passionate and could seem sx/so too.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> All I can say to that is, there is a reason why I haven't seen much of myself in most type descriptions over the last 10 or so years.


And whats that reason? Cause I see you in them.


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Chipps said:


> And whats that reason? Cause I see you in them.


Tell me, what is it you see in me that I missed for 12 years?

Tbh, I find type 6 descriptions incredibly vague. I do see 4, and to a lesser degree 1, in myself dead-on as a way of being. With 6, it's more like..."kinda...I guess." I can see about 30% dead-on and another 40% kinda. Then the other 30% is wtf--given how accurately 4 and 1 fit me, I've always had problems seeing 6 _more_ than either 5 and 7 which are there, too.


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## Chipps (Jun 1, 2011)

holyrockthrower said:


> Tell me, what is it you see in me that I missed for 12 years?
> 
> Tbh, I find type 6 descriptions incredibly vague. I do see 4, and to a lesser degree 1, in myself dead-on as a way of being. With 6, it's more like..."kinda...I guess." I can see about 30% dead-on and another 40% kinda. Then the other 30% is wtf--given how accurately 4 and 1 fit me, I've always had problems seeing 6 _more_ than either 5 and 7 which are there, too.


The 6 descriptions actually isnt vague at all. If anything, its negative, but the more I learn about it, and the more I interact with 6s IRL and online, the more I think its right. Not to say that all 6s fit it to a tee, but a lot of them do more than even they realize. 

I think the reason you dont see it is because I believe your tritype is wrong. I dont think you have a 1 fix. I think its a 9w8. The way you described yourself in your thread (the one that i participated in cause you have more, i believe), it seemed like you had a 1 fix, but then you started to say things that pointed against that. For example, you said that you were ineffectual and that people didnt listen to you. I found that odd because a 1 fixed 6 is anything if not effectual to some degree. Especially a 6w5 with a 1w2 fix. Also, you dont seem to care enough about right vs wrong which again points away from one. Not all ones have morals in the traditional sense, but they do have standards that they believe to be right an hold near and dear to them. You don't see too preoccupied with even thinking about that. 

Also, you contradict yourself quite often and you dont seem to be very aware of it. Not saying that other types dont contradict themselves, but 6s are guilty of this the most. I've seen you say one thing on one thread, and then be saying something completely different on another all back to back. Somehow, in your mind, all of those contradictions can coexist. I've seen way too many 6s do this and not at all be aware that they are doing it. 

But, at the end of the day, if you dont see 6 then dont type as such. You dont have to justify your type to anyone here.

Edit: Also, I still feel like you're a 6w7 as opposed to a 6w5 which could also be why you relate more to 7 over 6.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

Chipps said:


> The 6 descriptions actually isnt vague at all. If anything, its negative, but the more I learn about it, and the more I interact with 6s IRL and online, the more I think its right. Not to say that all 6s fit it to a tee, but a lot of them do more than even they realize.


Are you talking about me? xD No, seriously, that's exactly like me. When I first read about Enneagram, I never thought I'd be type Six. First I typed as Five, then as Four. And neither is my core. Well, for some time ago I typed as Seven but I rejected that a while ago. The awareness of me being a Six has been coming slowly to me while so many others have known it for months. Nowadays it's just so obvious to me too. Sure I'll question it some day but even I find it a little hard to imagine I would end up thinking it's _not_ my core. I just recognize so many Six issues in my life now, it's amazing because previously I just didn't. Maybe the biggest thing was accepting the insecurity. Now even the descriptions seem to suck a lot less than they once did since I don't react so much and so negatively to those issues. And I just don't need anybody telling me I'm a Six, I know it perfectly well by myself and it feels so good  Not all Sixes are like me, perhaps no-one is, but this is what I have felt and thought.




> Also, you contradict yourself quite often and you dont seem to be very aware of it. Not saying that other types dont contradict themselves, but 6s are guilty of this the most. I've seen you say one thing on one thread, and then be saying something completely different on another all back to back. Somehow, in your mind, all of those contradictions can coexist. I've seen way too many 6s do this and not at all be aware that they are doing it.


I've been told the same  It has to be related to the extremities that define Sixes so well. To me, it is no problem to feel both weak and strong, fearful and daredevil, considerate and inconsiderate etc. Most things in my life are love and hate relationships. I love being a Six, I hate being a Six. If someone has problems with that, well... then someone has problems with that xD

Growth cannot be forced. It takes time, for some longer than others. It's live and let live


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## RepairmanMan Man (Jan 21, 2012)

Chipps said:


> Also, you contradict yourself quite often and you dont seem to be very aware of it. Not saying that other types dont contradict themselves, but 6s are guilty of this the most. I've seen you say one thing on one thread, and then be saying something completely different on another all back to back. Somehow, in your mind, all of those contradictions can coexist. I've seen way too many 6s do this and not at all be aware that they are doing it.


Lol, Chipps! I _*know*_ I contradict myself. That was the main part of 6 I always _did_ see--I am incredibly variegated, and I'd never claim otherwise! I just didn't think it was exclusively 6-ish (4s are often described as contradictory, and I know for a fact my 9w1 stepfather is, while my father [6w5] doesn't seem to be that way at all). I am a creature of many moods, and the one I'm in largely determines my behavior. I do different things in different circumstances. I'm multifaceted off the charts. I know.

I also saw myself in the 6 emotional response. The problem is, I started with RH's book. I really have to think about how the fixation might apply to me before I can see that stuff (e.g., when they talk about authority issues, I've never really taken a stand against "the man" or anything--which is how I see "authority issues". When it's described as being aware of "power abuses"...that's a lot better. Still, my life doesn't really revolve around this issue). I won't lie, 1/3 of what I read is still "wtf?".

Thanks for being forthright about my potential gut-fix. I'll just say for the record, it's definitely a 1-fix (albeit likely with a strong 9-wing). I just happen to be an ENTP (read: unconscionable amoral douche who bends things to her own end. Adolf Hitler and Steve Jobs were both ENTP 1-fixers, for reference). It's Fi that gives the strong sense of right/wrong and good/bad--and I am an Fe-user. A 1-fix, for me, just gives that gut resentment of things being "wrong" or "corrupt"; frustrated perfectionism; and a sense of disgust at things I find don't match my personal standards (which is more about responsibility and people who slack off while I have to do all the work). I _did_ introject a lot of my 9-parents' way of thinking and behaving, though (here's another 6-issue I didn't think I had: I'm very programmable :frustrating: ).

I'm open to the idea I may have a 7-wing, but the 5-wing seems to describe my life better (I've struggled with isolation, nihilism, eccentricity, and withdrawn detachment). Seven-ness is something I've actually been semi-consciously trying to develop over the last several years. Guess it's working!

Anyway, don't really wanna hijack the thread. Thanks for the detailed response. Much appreciated.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

Swordsman of Mana said:


> I strongly disagree with this. the two systems interact with each other, but I think they are completely separate (actually, I often think instinct variant is a more significant influence on behavior than either MBTI or Enneagram)


We can agree to disagree. I'm not sure if it's a more significant influence, but I acknowledge it can be viewed separately to a _certain extent_. I may have overexaggerated their connection there, just to emphasize that it *exists*. I think the two systems combined make for a stronger system. When I personally type people, I find I'm better at enneagram than instincts, by far. If I try to take a stab at instincts before knowing their core type, it has a very low success rate.

It's not like people are much better at typing themselves either. Context is key. An Sp 8 might be more likely to be interested in material pursuits than an Sp 4. An So 2 might be more likely to be social than an So 5. An Sx 7 might be more likely to be aggressively passionate than an Sx 9. And so on. Often what stacking people assign themselves doesn't match the stacking description of their type at all, at which point they have to figure out where they went wrong. I see way too many Sx mistypes and some Sp mistypes with a lot of people misunderstanding So.


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

Spades said:


> We can agree to disagree. I'm not sure if it's a more significant influence, but I acknowledge it can be viewed separately to a _certain extent_. I may have overexaggerated their connection there, just to emphasize that it *exists*. I think the two systems combined make for a stronger system. When I personally type people, I find I'm better at enneagram than instincts, by far. If I try to take a stab at instincts before knowing their core type, it has a very low success rate.\
> It's not like people are much better at typing themselves either. Context is key. An Sp 8 might be more likely to be interested in material pursuits than an Sp 4. An So 2 might be more likely to be social than an So 5. An Sx 7 might be more likely to be aggressively passionate than an Sx 9. And so on. Often what stacking people assign themselves doesn't match the stacking description of their type at all, at which point they have to figure out where they went wrong. I see way too many Sx mistypes and some Sp mistypes with a lot of people misunderstanding So.


the cause for this is due to misinformation about what the instinct variants actually are/

Sp: drive for safety, comfort, security and longevity 
Sx: drive for intensity, merging and intimacy
So: drive to be a part of something larger than yourself, contribute to your social group and be recognized by your social group 

whether a person is a 3, an 8, a 1 or a 5, these definitions hold true.


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## zallla (Oct 11, 2011)

@Spades and @Swordsman of Mana, how would you differentiate whether person has 3-fix or social variant somewhere or both? And is it possible to tell would so-last be unaware of social issues or aware but just not interested?


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## Swordsman of Mana (Jan 7, 2011)

zallla said:


> @Spades and @Swordsman of Mana, how would you differentiate whether person has 3-fix or social variant somewhere or both? And is it possible to tell would so-last be unaware of social issues or aware but just not interested?


as a 3 fixer who is So-last, I think I can answer this.

3s and 3 fixers seek external validation and indicators that they are in fact successful, sexy, powerful, etc. for social 3s, this comes in the form of recognition from their peers, admiration and "attaboys", but for an Sp/Sx 3, this takes the form of more impersonal "markers" of success. "how much money am I making?" "what job title do I have?" "how nice is my house, clothes,...etc" "what results have I produced". while they may like to brag to their friends about this occasionally, So last 3s are more concerned with the external proof that they are doing well for themselves and less concerned with people knowing about this proof. Socially, the Sp/Sx 3 is more concerned with having a polished, respectable image than being liked and accepted by everyone (they tend to have a more "let's keep it business" aspect to them while at work and don't want to let their personal feelings be seen by others (or worse, get in the way of their performance)
Sx/Sp 3s are a little more moody, intense and in touch with their feelings than other 3s. like the Sp/Sx 3 they care less about social prestige, but their main issue is basing their self worth off of their sex appeal. at their best they are sexy, charismatic and often make great performers; at their worst they can obsess about their bodies and develop various bodily and psychological disorders trying to "fix themselves" to look more like their ideal image of beauty/sex appeal


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## NingenExp (Apr 4, 2011)

I think sp/sx defines me even better than the enneagram or mbti...

I'm not really convinced that I'm sp/sx, because my self-pres is strong enough to be able to accurately weight the others, but I have decided on the sx-second mainly because of my energy. I feel I am pretty self-contained and there's a lot of intensity inside of me. And also the push-pull dynamics seem suitable for me. I have also desires to be beautiful, to be attractive.

I am grounded and I identify myself with earth energy, heavy and someway steady. I withdraw a lot. I erase myself from social environments if I am feeling bad in emotional, physical or mental wellbeing. I also tend to be stuck in habits of use of space or time. They are not necessarily healthy. Comfort seems to be a priority. More than health or security. I have noticed too that I tend to choose immediately the place I want to stay when I'm in a room. For example, in public transportation, in restaurants, in classrooms. That choice seems to depend on comfort, accesability to basic needs, detachment from social interaction. I have always looked for independence and self-sufficiency. It bothers me when I change my schedule depending on others. I usually get high Si in cognitive functions tests. I prefer to be stoic and austere. It ashames when I'm complaining a lot or when I'm so demanding of attention and it often happens. I feel so free of obligations. I do not ask for help readily, solely if I feel I need something at the moment and that's the fastest or easiest way to get it. It's difficult for people to deny me help, because I usually don't ask for it. I do not complain overtly, I prefer to keep it to myself or to go by myself to get it how I want it. I don't carry what's not necessary. Sometimes I carry even less. It's like a way to test me I'm able to survive with almost anything. I also score high in 5. I feel more natural in known and private places. For example, I dance, sing, joke, perform and act spontaneous usually when I'm alone or with well-trusted friends and family members. It's also easier for me to compartmentalize my social groups. I usually leave variable and contrasting impressions, mainly because I don't like mixing them up. I also crave a lot of intensity because of its remoteness. I usually envy others' adventurous and sociable nature. I have never been in a relationship. I have not experienced love and sometimes I really do not care about it. I can imagine myself having sex without a deep or romantic connection. It's in someway all related to the body. I'm almost always on time if I feel like going. I view job as a way to get what I want or need, not as a career. The first thing I think when I am invited to go out is the way I will come back home. I am good at maintaining a low profile, despite of my tall and big size. I think I'm the quintessential self-pres. I feel also selfish and self-centered, in terms of space, time, feelings and thoughts. Yes, I also score high in Fi and Ti. I'm really accepting of others. My life philosophy is to be and let be. It infuriates me when people try to convince others or, even worse, try to change them. I understand and respect others' habits, because I expect the same from them. I also relate that to sp. I score high in 9 too.


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## Spades (Aug 31, 2011)

_Hitting Submit on an unfinished reply to clear buffer:_

If you type yourself as a certain variant then you should probably relate to most of those characteristics associated with it. Even still, the focus depends on the individual person. In one of the Fauvres' videos, an Sp 1 talked about her obsession with time as the ultimate resource. Another Sp could have obsession with security, another with money, another with health. The core type can influence the flavour, but so could various other factors related to the individual.


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