# Should I apologise, even though it'll be extremely insincere?



## Sour Roses (Dec 30, 2015)

Right about here --



gyogul said:


> and I repeated saying what you guys are saying makes no sense and is void of biology and any logic, and my mother started becoming snarky with me and saying "well, your logic isn't going anywhere" and tried ending it with "it's just a difference of opinion." I responded back saying "It's hard to take what you're saying as a mere difference when your "opinion" is ignorant" and she became extremely exasperated. My father said I stepped out of line, and I told him that I didn't call her out of her name or say anything directly ABOUT her, I simply said what she said was ignorant. And to finish a very long story, she became so upset over what I said that he had to come back home and forget going to the gokarts all together.



What you were saying stopped being about the subject matter, and more about your ego.

You didn't want anyone to have a differing opinion, you wanted them to accept yours.

And, you aren't all-knowing... so while you can state "this is why I think this, these are my points, this is my stance". It's wrong to not afford other people the basic respect of having their own opinion.

You shouldn't apologise fakely. If you don't feel it, don't say it. 
But you should think about some of the elements you're missing here, and try to find a way to be genuinely sorry.

Whatever you think about the way you said it... you did put the word "ignorant" in a sentence aimed towards your mother, who deserves at least a basic respect for bringing you into the world and wiping your derriere as a kid.
I'm glad she wasn't ignorant about how much to feed you and how to clothe you as a child... so that you could grow into an adult capable of forming your own opinions in your own way.

Not playing a guilt line here... what I'm saying is that respect is important. And you really didn't show it.

Still, if you don't feel sorry, don't say it... because it would just be a lie, and they'll probably know and not appreciate being lied to.


As it is... your parents do have a very valid point in the fact that you haven't engaged with differing children, and some may not be able to handle so many stressors at once. 
No matter what a study says about children's brains... if the emotions can't handle it, learning won't happen.

Neurologically, chemicals like dopamine are required to learn. Stress breaks down nueral connections, dopamine repairs them.
It's an absolute fact, emotions are vital to the learning process.

Those kids have recently:
Moved countries
Been separated from a parent
New school
No friends
Been found wanting in the school system, which can be a blow

And yet you are expecting their cognitive performance to be up to par with a set standard, no room for deviation.

Well, life does not exist on paper. It's full of variable and surprises.

Also, while you're concerned with the children learning multiple languages... what about other basics like math, reading, writing?

It's not doing a kid any favors to be bilingual if they can't add 1 + 1 together due to not being able to communicate in the new land they live in.

The father understands *prioritizing*.


Your parents have lived long enough to see life choices in more than black and white.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

I don't think you should apologise for anything if you don't mean it/don't want to. But if you want to take action to make up with her you could just let her know that you care about her feelings being hurt which is a seperate matter than the argument and who was right etc. It seems she was mostly hurt by you saying her opinion was ignorant. I understand you didn't mean it as a personal attack and that of course it is different to saying she is ignorant. However I can understand how you could been more tactful even if you were being logically correct. You can now let her know you didn't mean to hurt her feelings, you don't want to argue with her, you don't want to hurt her feelings (you can say that you're sorry if her feelings got hurt without apologising for anything else which just says you don't want to be upset without getting into who was right or wrong). And I'd reccomend doing this without repeating that her opinion was 'ignorant' again like I wouldn't use that word and try to be more tactful with her and understanding of your wording (and possibly tone?). I understand what happened and where you're coming from and how the argument must have been frustrating. I just don't think you are limited by your two options in your OP the way you said them. You can appease your mom's feelings and make up with/meet her half way without apologising insincerely for anything or compromising on what you believe at the same time.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@Rebecca.M

I don't know why you and another user keep saying that I was either "forcing" my opinion on them and it was about my "ego", both of which aren't true. Throughout the middle of the argument where they kept dismissing the constants of the subject I dropped trying to explain my stance on the situation and to clarify the facts since I thought they didn't understand, not to prove my point anymore. And if I was really adamant about my stance I wouldn't have had a calm discussion with my father earlier when I introduced him first to this topic, and he held the same stance my mother did. Where the conversation with my mother included went sour is when they both became irrational and dismissed facts and tried to use age and play devil's advocate to try to cover up their erroneous statements, which neither slide with me. I don't care how old you are, it doesn't prevent you from making stupid statements like they did here. And I've heard worse things from my mother like being called the devil (which she never apologised for or expressed regret saying), so I think calling a statement she said "ignorant" is very tame and appropriate for expressing how I approve of a statement she said. If I called it stupid, dumb, retarded--all informal words, then I would somewhat understand her point. But I said none of those, nor did I call her out of her name. 

Also, your stance to justify the "you'll realise when you have kids soon" doesn't justify the way they went about their argument. I'll quote something I said earlier:


> I understand the part about kids; you must be attentive to their struggles. My father used it in his initial point when I came to him first with the topic. However in the second instance with my father and the first with my mum it was used to deflect that their statements contradicted reality. They would repeat it everyone I mentioned the constants of the subject and tell me it's wrong because "I don't have kids." This has nothing to do with the fact that children absorb languages easily, which they objected to.


And to add, I even clarified what you said in the argument; if there are no barriers that prevents the child from learning a language, e.g. inconsistent use of language, moving, stress, etc., then any child will indeed absorb a language easy. This has nothing to do with the child's personality like they were insisting and more with the use of the language and the environment.

And I don't buy into adults being all-knowing beings simply because they're older. They may have more experience in certain areas but this does not mean on average they are more intelligent. They can easily express stupid statements and showcase irrational behaviour like they did in this argument.

At the end of the day I had no problem with them siding with the father. Simply because my dad understands "prioritising" doesn't make his any more "correct" than mine, since my stance had guaranteed success while his appealed to emotions; we simply had two different agendas and were focused on two different things, which the first time around we both expressed very well and understood each others points enough to agree to disagree. What I didn't like about this argument was how the second time around they justified it with irrational statements and tried using the "i'm a parent" card and playing devil's advocate to try to bend reality to their irrational perspective. I really don't care how old you are, it doesn't prevent you from being stupid. When your age starts to speak for you instead of your intelligence then that's an indication that you never had much to begin with.

@johnson.han.3

And I'm her son, and her comment towards me can be deemed as "out of line" as well. Love is a two way street, and it's not my sole responsibility to bear the cross this time around.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

gyogul said:


> @Rebecca.M
> 
> I don't know why you and another user keep saying that I was either "forcing" my opinion on them and it was about my "ego", both of which aren't true. Throughout the middle of the argument where they kept dismissing the constants of the subject I dropped trying to explain my stance on the situation and to clarify the facts since I thought they didn't understand, not to prove my point anymore. And if I was really adamant about my stance I wouldn't have had a calm discussion with my father earlier when I introduced him first to this topic, and he held the same stance my mother did. Where the conversation with my mother included went sour is when they both became irrational and dismissed facts and tried to use age and play devil's advocate to try to cover up their erroneous statements, which neither slide with me. I don't care how old you are, it doesn't prevent you from making stupid statements like they did here. And I've heard worse things from my mother like being called the devil (which she never apologised for or expressed regret saying), so I think calling a statement she said "ignorant" is very tame and appropriate for expressing how I approve of a statement she said. If I called it stupid, dumb, retarded--all informal words, then I would somewhat understand her point. But I said none of those, nor did I call her out of her name.
> 
> ...


Lol a spat and love is gone? man never get married.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@johnson.han.3

I don't understand what you're saying
@sometimes

The truth is, in regards to how she felt about me calling her opinion ignorant, I'm not really sympathetic towards her taking offence. I think she was not only being a hypocrite since she was also snarky with me as well, but being overly sensitive and intentionally took it the wrong way despite me clarifying that it has nothing to do with her overall intellect. At some point I think I shouldn't be responsible for people's emotions because they feel some type of way. Sure I can apologise but I don't know how to bring myself to care about her hurt feelings in reaction to my calling her opinion ignorant because she was truly being irrational and in addition trying to be snide with me, which is why I said it. I don't really understand why she even tried being snide towards me if she would react so violently to such a casual word. Glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. 

On the flip side, I do care about the relationship and don't want this to be an unresolved dent. And plus I think it will be better for me to get used to "taking the high road" even if I don't agree with something. And I can apologise to her and make it convincing and etc, but there's still a disconnect somewhere. Maybe I'll learn the more I do it . Irregardless I'm apologising this morning when my mum is done with her work since I think it would be the most effective option, looking at our relationship long-term wise.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

gyogul said:


> @johnson.han.3
> 
> I don't understand what you're saying
> @sometimes
> ...


how does this have anything to do with LOVE? Are you saying you don't love your mother now that you had this spat? or vice versa? 

Someone has to initiate the apology and resume the relationship. Since she cared for you for so long, might aswell me you.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

gyogul said:


> The truth is, in regards to how she felt about me calling her opinion ignorant, I'm not really sympathetic towards her taking offence. I think she was not only being a hypocrite since she was also snarky with me as well, but being overly sensitive and intentionally took it the wrong way despite me clarifying that it has nothing to do with her overall intellect. At some point I think I shouldn't be responsible for people's emotions because they feel some type of way. Sure I can apologise but I don't know how to bring myself to care about her hurt feelings in reaction to my calling her opinion ignorant because she was truly being irrational and in addition trying to be snide with me, which is why I said it. I don't really understand why she even tried being snide towards me if she would react so violently to such a casual word. Glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.
> 
> On the flip side, I do care about the relationship and don't want this to be an unresolved dent. And plus I think it will be better for me to get used to "taking the high road" even if I don't agree with something. And I can apologise to her and make it convincing and etc, but there's still a disconnect somewhere. Maybe I'll learn the more I do it . Irregardless I'm apologising this morning when my mum is done with her work since I think it would be the most effective option, looking at our relationship long-term wise.


I wasn't making any judgement about I just meant that it seems you want to make up with her like by acting the bigger person and actively doing something to ensure you make up. So letting her know you care that her feelings were hurt (as she is more sensitive - but you don't have to tell her you think that) without actually apologising for anything you did neccessarily sounds like it coukd be a good way to do this and fit in with what you want whilst being true to what you think. But it would only work if wanted to say that about her feelings. It was really just an example of a way to make up sincerely without apologising . You don't have to agree with the reasons for her being upset. She does sound sensitive but even if someone is overly sensitive and you believe they are in the wrong that is seperate from saying you care about their feelings. I'm not saying you should if you don't want to. I just said that because it seemed like a compromise between your two points in the OP. If there are other issues like you not believing she was really that upset of if you just don't want to cater to her like that because you disagree with her behaviour whatever. And I do understand that sometimes you think someone is unjustified and so don't care to acknowledge their feelings obviously if you believe they aren't your responsibility. Then you can just ask if you can make up and put it behind you and say you don't like it when you argue or something.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@johnson.han.3

Love's a two way street. It's not really my true responsibility nor place to apologise for her purposeful and unnecessary wild reaction and her hypocritical offence. Sure I can apologise at the end of the day, but I don't think I'll mean it. But this isn't the first time I've done that with my parents so I don't really see how this is any different anymore  I suppose the feeling of hollowness every time I do it has gotten to me

@sometimes

I see your point. Last question: should I apologise for "ruining" my father's birthday? I personally don't think I had anything to do with that. Sure I started the argument, but I think I mentioned this in a past post that my dad and I get into arguments like that all the time and we never take it personally. I'm well aware that my mother is a sensitive flower but I didn't think the topic would go where it did with her. It was my mother's immature and funky mood that made him go back home because she was so upset. I didn't react violently to her trying to insult my intelligence but she flipped out when I called her opinion ignorant, so I think she holds the brunt of responsibility for that bit.


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## General Lee Awesome (Sep 28, 2014)

gyogul said:


> @johnson.han.3
> 
> Love's a two way street. It's not really my true responsibility nor place to apologise for her purposeful and unnecessary wild reaction and her hypocritical offence. Sure I can apologise at the end of the day, but I don't think I'll mean it. But this isn't the first time I've done that with my parents so I don't really see how this is any different anymore  I suppose the feeling of hollowness every time I do it has gotten to me
> 
> ...


again, are you saying because of this, you don't love your mom anymore? lol???


if then you have serious problems, or you are still a teenager.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

> I see your point. Last question: should I apologise for "ruining" my father's birthday? I personally don't think I had anything to do with that. Sure I started the argument, but I think I mentioned this in a past post that my dad and I get into arguments like that all the time and we never take it personally. I'm well aware that my mother is a sensitive flower but I didn't think the topic would go where it did with her. It was my mother's immature and funky mood that made him go back home because she was so upset. I didn't react violently to her trying to insult my intelligence but she flipped out when I called her opinion ignorant, so I think she holds the brunt of responsibility for that bit.


 @gyogul 

Sorry I edited my previous post a bit because I didn't make it clear what I meant. I don't mean I think it is best to say you care about her feelings if you don't feel that would be right to say and that I do understand sometimes it can not be right to say that. I'm just saying there are things you can say which may be sincere and means you can extend the olive branch (or whatever) without saying anything you don't really mean. 

In response to the above quote about your dads birthday plan; In that case then no I wouldn't advise you to apologise as it would be insincere. It sounds like you and your father communicate better than you and your mother on difficult matters? So therefore it shouldn't be too difficult to just a have conversation with him about it and make sure he's not annoyed with you let him know you don't like arguing, briefly how you felt maybe about it and that you think it's a shame his birthday got ruined. This is all just examples of things which you may sincerely think (?) which mean you can have the desired outcome whilst expressing your genuine thoughts and no insincere apology. Did your dad get another birthday celebration/outing? Do you want to try again with your parents and call it your dads birthday celebration? If you want to and if it hasn't already been done then you could bring that up to. All just suggestions.

It sounds like you want to put this behind you with them? and want to maintain a relationship with them in general and ensure it gets put behind you quickly by you actively doing something? You don't have to say sorry for something you're not sorry about for this to happen. So if you want to approach them to make then I'd advice just to think of things you are sincere about which might help to make up like the examples I gave. It can be as simple as just saying you want to find a way to move forward or whatever (doesn't have to be those words but you get what I mean).


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

You can ask apologise to your mother because you made her upset, even if you were right. It's all about feelings, not about mistakes. 
Btw... WHY THOSE BILINGUAL KIDS GET SAD WHEN SOMEONE TALKS WITH THEM IN THE SECOND LANGUAGE?! That's really weird. If they were confused or angry, I'd understand, but UPSET?! That's very weird!


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## sprinkles (Feb 7, 2010)

If you have to ask, then yes. It's obviously troubling you if you even need to ask about it.

You think you aren't sincere but you're just stubborn. I don't even believe you aren't sincere. You'll probably crack when you actually do it.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@johnson.han.3

your speech is confusing to read. i think we're just talking past each other at this point
@sometimes

You are right, I can talk to my dad much easier about difficult matters than my mother, who I have to walk on egg shells with almost all the time when I bring up even remotely controversial topics. I just talked about it with my father and said "I'm sorry your birthday went sour" which he simply pardoned it and everything was fine and we talked afterwards like nothing ever happened. All of this happened yesterday so there has been no bash of sorts yet. We may or may not go to the gokart centre again, I just don't know at this point.

I wasn't really worried about making amends with my father; I knew he wasn't exactly annoyed with me per se, but slightly irked that it happened in general. I do want to put it behind with my mother as well just so I can get it out the way. With my father it was easy to say what I said, but I don't exactly know what to say to my mother without flat out lying/being insincere because I 1) do not see my words as offensive, mostly because she also was snarky towards me and 2) I do not care that she was offended, because she was being obnoxiously sensitive. I think she brought this upon herself

@Karla

I can be emotional at times but I mostly keep it to myself. I'm not well-equipped at handling other people's moods . It's more complicated for me to apologise to my mother because I think all of her offence was self-inflicted.

The kids aren't sad because they have to switch languages. The eldest daughter, the centre of the subject, became frustrated and refused to go to school because she cannot understand English very well and did not understand the teacher or her peers (and thus could not play with them).

@sprinkles

I've already concluded that apologising is the most effective thing to do in the long-run, not only for my relationship with my mother but for myself in general to stop being so stubborn. But in this case I don't really see what I did as wrong, and I can easily apologise for offending her but I really don't mean it since I largely don't care because it was all inflicted upon herself by herself.


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## Harker (Sep 18, 2016)




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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

gyogul said:


> You are right, I can talk to my dad much easier about difficult matters than my mother, who I have to walk on egg shells with almost all the time when I bring up even remotely controversial topics. I just talked about it with my father and said "I'm sorry your birthday went sour" which he simply pardoned it and everything was fine and we talked afterwards like nothing ever happened. All of this happened yesterday so there has been no bash of sorts yet. We may or may not go to the gokart centre again, I just don't know at this point.
> 
> I wasn't really worried about making amends with my father; I knew he wasn't exactly annoyed with me per se, but slightly irked that it happened in general. I do want to put it behind with my mother as well just so I can get it out the way. With my father it was easy to say what I said, but I don't exactly know what to say to my mother without flat out lying/being insincere because I 1) do not see my words as offensive, mostly because she also was snarky towards me and 2) I do not care that she was offended, because she was being obnoxiously sensitive. I think she brought this upon herself.


You could either say you're 'sorry if she got offended/upset' (it doesn't have to mean anything more than that). Or if you're not comfortable saying that then why not just say you're sorry you had an argument or if not then something like 'I don't want to argue with with you. Can we make up and move on from this?' Would that be insincere? Do you enjoy getting into arguments? Do you want to make up with her? 

Also perhaps slightly beside the point but I'm curious what mbti type you and your mother are.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@sometimes

I do want to makeup with her. All of your suggestions appeal to me, especially "sorry if [you] got offended/upset" because although I see it as her fault that she got offended, I didn't truly intend for my words to pierce her like they did. I enjoy arguments when they aren't taken seriously and become antagonistic. I like to pick people's brains with topics I'm curious about 

And haha I was wondering when someone would ask. My mum is an ISTJ and me...I initially tested as an INFJ for a couple of years but my results started to change and now I believe I'm either an INFP or INTP. I relate to both and can't really pick one over the other.


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

@gyogul maaan just ask apologies, it doesn't hurt :tongue: yeah it may be self-inflicted, but you can say something like "sorry mom for making you upset over nothing, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings, I can't stop thinking about that because it was wrong" and she will accept that. You can be right, but asking to a person to forgive you is not saying "I was wrong", it is the same as saying "Sorry for hurting you" sometimes. It's time to change some concepts!

I was talking about that link you provided :tongue:


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@Karla

if you rewind shortly before the timestamp on the link you watched you can see the mother asking the daughter questions like "are the kids playing with you?", "are you understanding the teacher?" and so forth, all of which the daughter objects to. She's not upset because she has to speak English, she's upset because she not only can't speak it but can't understand the people around her in school. In the more recent videos the daughter seems a bit happier now that she's in ESL.


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## sometimes (Dec 26, 2013)

gyogul said:


> @sometimes
> 
> I do want to makeup with her. All of your suggestions appeal to me, especially "sorry if [you] got offended/upset" because although I see it as her fault that she got offended, I didn't truly intend for my words to pierce her like they did. I enjoy arguments when they aren't taken seriously and become antagonistic. I like to pick people's brains with topics I'm curious about
> 
> And haha I was wondering when someone would ask. My mum is an ISTJ and me...I initially tested as an INFJ for a couple of years but my results started to change and now I believe I'm either an INFP or INTP. I relate to both and can't really pick one over the other.


Yeah so I'd suggest just communicate that you didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. And I guess you could say you like 'debates' but not 'arguments' in terms of using semantics to mean argument is when it gets antagonistic etc. So just communicate those things to her as it's the truth after all and should be enough to move forward.

yeah I figured it would be interesting to know your types as obviously certain types can struggle to communicate with each other more than others...


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

gyogul said:


> @Karla
> 
> if you rewind shortly before the timestamp on the link you watched you can see the mother asking the daughter questions like "are the kids playing with you?", "are you understanding the teacher?" and so forth, all of which the daughter objects to. She's not upset because she has to speak English, she's upset because she not only can't speak it but can't understand the people around her in school. In the more recent videos the daughter seems a bit happier now that she's in ESL.


Sorry, I meant the other link. :tongue: the one where a woman cried because someone talked in another language instead of Italian :laughing: myyyy gosh


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

angelfish said:


> In consideration of your situation, my perception while naturally prioritizing personal relation seems like this: you asked your parents an opinion question on a topic they have some experience in that you don't (child-rearing)... then you disagreed logically with the content of their answers and/or way that they presented their answers... then you vocalized that and were (unsurprisingly) met with disharmony... and now you are angry at them. IMO, if you ask people their opinions, then you are essentially offering to consider what they are saying in light of who they are and what is most important to them.


When I ask someone for an opinion, unless it's explicitly about something subjective like "What's your favourite colour?", then I'm asking for input on analysing something. An argument or piece of logic from an external source, in case they've got a piece of information I haven't, or a way of reasoning about it that makes more sense than my current line of thought, or a way to rearrange the context of the situation that assists me. 

When the opinion is given, I then scrutinise it for logical flaws or imperfections in my understanding of what the opinion's message is. I then ask questions about the opinion to fill these in, and if it's still robust and logical after this process and adds value to my capacity to understand/resolve the original topic the opinion is concerning, then I integrate it into my internal model of things. 
And then sometimes bits of the opinion make sense but other bits don't, so it can be a mixture. 



> To me it is a categorically _different_ request to desire to ask someone their opinions _with the caveat_ that you will be judging their statements on logic and openly debating them if you feel like they do not meet a certain standard.


Why must all talk be debate instead of discussion? In a debate, you start with the basis that your position is right, the opponent's is wrong, and you've to prove that they're wrong. A discussion is more of a mutual/cooperative effort to move towards truth and understanding.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@Word Dispenser



> You should probably apologize to your dad, for ruining his karting over this discussion, lol. If I'm reading this right. That part was unclear. So, if he didn't get to have his birthday karting over this, I mean, that's a pretty serious thing for just a philosophical discussion.


I already did.



> But, you should probably also apologize to your mom. Not only is what you said about her opinion unfounded and probably inaccurate, but what you said about her opinion clearly offended her.
> 
> When you offend somebody, that's usually a basis for apology if offense is not what you intended.


Already apologised to my mum as well. And what I said being unfounded and inaccurate? Why, because of your own incredulity?  I already explain what I didn't like about my mother's "opinion":



gyogul said:


> Although she held a similar stance as my father on the issue, the reason why I called her argument ignorant is because of the way she went about it. She disregarded all evidence and made erroneous statements that are not true, and upon me correcting her would play devil's advocate and say "not all studies are correct" to justify her opinion that is contradicted* by facts. It is a fact that younger children absorb languages easily, but she disagrees and says it's dependent upon the child's personality and justifies it with "you can be wrong", which also implies in its usage that "I can be right" when she says it.





> *Your mom may or may not have ignored the information presented*, but that's not what's in question here. It's her opinion based on that information. You're free to disagree with her perspective, but the truth is, it's just a differing perspective. She's looking at this information from a different angle-- Relationships and how they shape the children. She focused on different elements than you did regarding the issue.


But it _is_ what's in question...that's literally the entire reason why this debate became aggressive. This makes me question did you even read a decent portion of the OP, otherwise you're just filling in the blanks yourself like now. 



gyogul said:


> @Weekend
> To be honest during that point of the argument it was less about who was on what side and me trying to clarify what the facts were. As I mentioned I'm passionate about linguistics and so instead of seeing their disregard to the facts as an "attack" or anything of the sort, I was actively trying to clarify what they were and how it plays into the process of multilingual children as I genuinely thought they didn't understand it up until they kept repeating "you'll realise when you're older." It really bewildered me how they kept brushing aside the facts as if they weren't relevant and that their opinions shaped reality, which that's where I said "you guys aren't looking at the biology of the human mind and the facts" which was kind of my parting statement, but this is where my mother became snarky with me and I decided to clap back at her, which I think I was fairly respectful in the way I did it as opposed to the bratty manner in which she did hers.





> You called her opinion ignorant, probably because you were frustrated that she didn't agree entirely with your opinion, and managed to provide a convincing argument for your dad as well, who ended up siding and/or understanding her perspective, rather than rejecting it. Your dad seems to be the only one here who has a balanced viewpoint.


No..............you have it wrong. Completely wrong. Now it makes me question did you even read anything at all.



gyogul said:


> Also, you misunderstand. Simply because I disagree with them doesn't mean I'm "forcing" them to take sides. Like I mentioned before, when I introduced this topic to my father initially he had a very different opinion then mine but the conversation went extremely well. *Even with my mother I was not "forcing" her to change her opinion, but more to acknowledge the constants of the subject.* My father did--initially--and still kept his opinion, which I had no problem with. But I became very bewildered and confused how they could simply brush off facts and insert their opinion as if their perception shapes reality.





gyogul said:


> It depends. I don't know if you actually read the entire OP but if not, I'll give a brief run down of what happened. So I initially brought up the topic with my father and we have a calm discussion and agreed to disagree. The second argument is the meat of the situation that includes both him and my mother. His initial perspective was that the child is frustrated because she cannot speak English, therefore she needs to be tended to immediately and used the "you'll realise when you're a parent" bit to explain that. His perspective wasn't really backed by facts, but I understood it since the topic is indeed involving a child with growing emotions. My perspective in the initial argument was thinking long-term about what would benefit the child best since I didn't believe her current struggles would last long (and seeing the more recent videos, they didn't).





> The irony here is that ignorance is just a lack of knowledge. One which both sides (You and your mother) seem to suffer from here. She may not have acknowledged certain facts on one side of the issue, but you also aren't acknowledging the facts she presents on the other side, either.


There are no facts she presented, just emotional rebuttals.



> I mentioned it to my mother as we were driving to a gokart centre for my dad's bday. She took the same stance my father did for similar reasons that English is a priority, etc. I repeated my argument, but she didn't question the sources like my father did; instead, she rejected all of the information, even the most obvious one that children absorb languages easily because "children are different". My father oddly piggybacked this saying it's true because he "was different and thought differently than the over kids" and I told him that your personality has nothing to do with biology and how your brain operates as a young child. My mother then switched her argument to "well it doesn't really matter if he speaks Swahili to her because it's only important if they have a deep relationship with each other."





gyogul said:


> I understand the part about kids; you must be attentive to their struggles. My father used it in his initial point when I came to him first with the topic. However in the second instance with my father and the first with my mum it was used to deflect that their statements contradicted reality. They would repeat it everyone I mentioned the constants of the subject and tell me it's wrong because "I don't have kids." *This has nothing to do with the fact that children absorb languages easily, which they objected to.*


People, you cannot half-ass read an OP and then fill in the blanks with your own assumptions. It's ridiculous.


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## Word Dispenser (May 18, 2012)

gyogul said:


> @*Word Dispenser*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're allowed to dislike it. You can even tell her that. But, calling it 'ignorant' is inaccurate, in my opinion. The only way in which you explained that her opinion was ignorant, was you said she was ignoring information. Except, she wasn't. She just focused on a different side of the issue, and made an argument based on that perspective. And you didn't like it, so you called it ignorant, instead of just saying you didn't like it. :kitteh:


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

Word Dispenser said:


> You're allowed to dislike it. You can even tell her that. But, calling it 'ignorant' is inaccurate, in my opinion. The only way in which you explained that her opinion was ignorant, was you said she was ignoring information. Except, she wasn't. She just focused on a different side of the issue, and made an argument based on that perspective. And you didn't like it, so you called it ignorant, instead of just saying you didn't like it. :kitteh:


What she said is ignorant, because it was an erroneous statement, not a different perspective on the situation.



> I mentioned it to my mother as we were driving to a gokart centre for my dad's bday. She took the same stance my father did for similar reasons that English is a priority, etc. I repeated my argument, but she didn't question the sources like my father did; instead, she rejected all of the information, *even the most obvious one that children absorb languages easily because "children are different". My father oddly piggybacked this [my mother's stance] saying it's true because he "was different and thought differently than the over kids" and I told him that your personality has nothing to do with biology and how your brain operates as a young child. My mother then switched her argument to "well it doesn't really matter if he speaks Swahili to her because it's only important if they have a deep relationship with each other."*


Young children learn languages easily irrespective of their personality. Her "perspective" is _false_. And not only that, she switched goal posts and virtually abandoned the subject of the question when the argument got heated and said "Well it doesn't really matter if she speaks Swahili or not" which she didn't say throughout most of the argument.

She can interpret it however she pleases, but that doesn't mean it's accurate. She tried playing a game of devil's advocate, not devil's proof because there was indeed constant facts that surrounded the subject. 

edit: actually I don't see the point in continuing this anymore. You read little to nothing about the situation (as I already speculated in your first post with your wild inaccurate projections of the situation, and you indirectly confirmed by avoiding talking about it in your second post) so I see no reason why I should continue this with someone who didn't even bother reading a decent portion of the situation and instead projected his assumptions onto it. I should've done this with other posters who did the same but by page 7 it's enough. If you're going to respond to a thread it's your responsibility to at least have a good understanding of the topic at hand before responding, not mine to tell you everything piece by piece.


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## Amy (Jan 15, 2015)

Christ... 7 pages about a stupid subject :dry: it should be moved to the Spam World :laughing:


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## snowbell (Apr 2, 2012)

*Thread warning*

A reminder to all - please remember to keep comments on topic, helpful, and respectful of others. Also, please keep in mind the rules of the forum as a whole, as well as the specific Advice Center specific guidelines, 

Thanks :happy:.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

dizzycactus said:


> When I ask someone for an opinion, unless it's explicitly about something subjective like "What's your favourite colour?", then I'm asking for input on analysing something. An argument or piece of logic from an external source, in case they've got a piece of information I haven't, or a way of reasoning about it that makes more sense than my current line of thought, or a way to rearrange the context of the situation that assists me.
> 
> When the opinion is given, I then scrutinise it for logical flaws or imperfections in my understanding of what the opinion's message is. I then ask questions about the opinion to fill these in, and if it's still robust and logical after this process and adds value to my capacity to understand/resolve the original topic the opinion is concerning, then I integrate it into my internal model of things.
> And then sometimes bits of the opinion make sense but other bits don't, so it can be a mixture.
> ...


I can understand and respect - and see value in - your method. I do sometimes think similarly, particularly in a work environment, or when a practical task needs to be done swiftly and efficiently. 

At the same time, I also know that some people - myself included - find it to "turn off" the personal relating/valuing thought components for an extended time, particularly with a conversational partner one has a deep/complex relationship with, and so it is challenging to process a line of scrutiny (much less multiple lines) without eventually feeling some negativity born from what may feel like personal criticism. The abstract logical focus can quickly become overwhelming, as it is hard for me as a dominant F to sift out all the personal factors as instinctively and rapidly as Ts seem to be able to do. 

A fairly recent example of this is when I asked my INTP dad to give me 3 adjectives that describe me as part of a psychology exercise. The first adjective he shared was a fairly negative descriptor. My immediate reaction was to feel very hurt that his first thought of me was a substantially unflattering one, not only because the first thing that came to his mind was negative (the painful realization that I was letting him down), but also because he didn't pause to consider whether sharing that thought at that time and in that context would be hurtful to me or not. My dad, on the other hand, simply answered the question, regardless of the personal implications. In hindsight, I can understand that, and I can sort of wrap my head around it, though even now not without feeling some disappointment and frustration at the personal implications of his answers. It's nearly impossible for me to block that out. 

So that is why, though I completely agree and understand in theory your distinction between debate and discussion and preference for discussion, it may be challenging for a strong F to sustain the sort of impersonal discussion you may be interested in for any prolonged period of time. And that is why I tend to feel like I can see a bit through @gyogul's mother's eyes in terms of understanding why she would feel upset - it's all the personal factors involved.


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## dizzycactus (Sep 9, 2012)

angelfish said:


> I can understand and respect - and see value in - your method. I do sometimes think similarly, particularly in a work environment, or when a practical task needs to be done swiftly and efficiently.
> 
> At the same time, I also know that some people - myself included - find it to "turn off" the personal relating/valuing thought components for an extended time, particularly with a conversational partner one has a deep/complex relationship with, and so it is challenging to process a line of scrutiny (much less multiple lines) without eventually feeling some negativity born from what may feel like personal criticism. The abstract logical focus can quickly become overwhelming, as it is hard for me as a dominant F to sift out all the personal factors as instinctively and rapidly as Ts seem to be able to do.
> 
> ...


I don't think that was a T thing. Anyone would realise they're about to say something that criticises you on a personal level, and try to find a better way of saying it or pick something else. When I talk about something impersonal, I don't mean insults whilst ignoring their effects, I usually talk about actual impersonal things. For example, I might instinctively say I think an idea won't work which is 2 layers removed from criticism of the person - it's a statement merely of my thoughts instead of a statement of objective truth, and thus could be incorrect, and it criticises the idea and not the person. It would be different to criticise the competence of the person for producing the idea, but the way I see it, it's like starting off with a bare block of rock before you carve it into something - similarly, being wrong is a necessary step on the road to finding truth, so it doesn't mean anything if a given idea is wrong, we just keep carving it. 
Kind of a long rant, but my point is that I am acutely aware of the potential for criticising the person, and try to keep things impersonal in part to avoid it. I don't think your father's remarks were a T/F thing.


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## angelfish (Feb 17, 2011)

dizzycactus said:


> I don't think that was a T thing. Anyone would realise they're about to say something that criticises you on a personal level, and try to find a better way of saying it or pick something else.When I talk about something impersonal, I don't mean insults whilst ignoring their effects, I usually talk about actual impersonal things.


That's my point, though. He didn't see what he said as an insult. And to be fair, what he said was an accurate and fairly precise statement. It was truthful, and it was technically a good-quality answer to my question. It just wasn't what I was hoping for on an emotional level. 

That example was not to assert that all Ts are oblivious to personal matters. What I hoped to get across is that it is more challenging for some people to block out personal implications than others, particularly when relating with people who are emotionally close and/or who have a long history of relation. It seems more frequent with Fs, but I have also noticed there seems to be some correlation with sx and of course with more personal/emotional/sensitive enneatypes. My father can be particularly emotionally removed, which may be for any number of reasons, including authoritarian parents who toed the line of abusing him both emotionally and physically; being 5w6; being sp/sx; having some autistic traits. Regardless, his pattern of impersonal relating is consistent with being a clear T dominant. However - that's clearly not the issue in gyogul's case. 



> For example, I might instinctively say I think an idea won't work which is 2 layers removed from criticism of the person - it's a statement merely of my thoughts instead of a statement of objective truth, and thus could be incorrect, and it criticises the idea and not the person. It would be different to criticise the competence of the person for producing the idea, but the way I see it, it's like starting off with a bare block of rock before you carve it into something - similarly, being wrong is a necessary step on the road to finding truth, so it doesn't mean anything if a given idea is wrong, we just keep carving it.


Sure, that makes sense. The caveat for me is that the tone and context often have just as much to do with whether something is personally hurtful or not as the statement itself. There are so many factors. Was it an idea I spent a long time working on? Who is giving the criticism? Who did they say it in front of? How did they communicate it to me? Do they have background knowledge? Have they shot down my ideas before? 

And so on. 

@gyogul

Thanks for the reply. I do understand your frustration with your parents. I wonder if they - your mom in particular - felt a bit like you were trying to assert your hypothetical expertise in an area where you don't have any hands-on experience. 



gyogul said:


> Although she held a similar stance as my father on the issue, the reason why I called her argument ignorant is because of the way she went about it. She disregarded all evidence and made erroneous statements that are not true, and upon me correcting her would play devil's advocate and say "not all studies are correct" to justify her opinion that is contradicting by facts. It is a fact that younger children absorb languages easily, but she disagrees and says it's dependent upon the child's personality and justifies it with "you can be wrong", which also implies in its usage that "I [my mum] can be right" when she says it.
> 
> I understand the part about kids; you must be attentive to their struggles. My father used it in his initial point when I came to him first with the topic. However in the second instance with my father and the first with my mum it was used to deflect that their statements contradicted reality. They would repeat it everyone I mentioned the constants of the subject and tell me it's wrong because "I don't have kids." This has nothing to do with the fact that children absorb languages easily, which they objected to.


Did you ask her if she had experiences to the contrary?

My fundamental belief is that, while people may seem illogical and irrational, they always have a reason for behaving/communicating the way that they do. We may or may not feel that it is a _good_ reason, but there is always some root explanation for why. The best clues seem to be patterns - has this happened before? What context surrounds the behavior? Is there a deeper reason that may not be present on the surface?

What I find with my ISFJ is that personal experience tends to trump all other data. He is a firm believer in the scientific method, but experience to the contrary is experience to the contrary, outlier or not. Perhaps your mom and dad have encountered situations where the general rule does not seem to hold true. I know from my studies that it is true that children are far more malleable and adaptable when it comes to language learning (I have heard of a hypothesized critical period for language learning in childhood), but, at the same time, my mom works in early childhood special education, and I know that she has dealt with plenty of children with learning disabilities that make it challenging for them to learn language early, and who tend to do much better later in life, after implementing strategies to learn in a way that suits them best.


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## gyogul (Jan 26, 2014)

@angelfish

I don't need hands-on experience to know what I'm talking about. I don't need to travel to the sun to know it's hot. And besides, if I was truly shoving my "expertise" down their throats, I would have used it to justify my opinion my saying something to the effect of "I know more in this field than you do, so my opinion is more educated." I said nothing of the sort and simply laid out the facts and then asked them for their perspective. The argument went astray when they tried changing the facts to justify their opinion which in all honesty they didn't need to. 

I indirectly asked her if she had experienced anything of the contrary. When I kept trying to explain the facts and she rebutted saying "it depends on the child's personality", I told her that does not happen unless the child has an intellectual disorder or is too old. My father then chimes in and cosigns her statement by saying something to the effect of "What she's saying is correct because I was different as a child; I thought differently and I couldn't learn languages easily." I told him he didn't grow up in a multilingual environment nor does learning languages in primary school count (since he's always told me he didn't like learning languages in primary and secondary school). We're talking about young child from ~5 who are placed in a multilingual environment, not simply studying a subject. My mother later cosigned this statement which leads me to believe she actually has no knowledge of the subject at hand nor any personal experience that justifies her opinion. Both of their "reasons" for saying this are, to be quite frank, stupid and largely irrelevant to the topic. While my mother is an ISTJ--very close in type to your ISFJ and prioritises experiences as well--one's biased experiences does not shape reality, only their own perception. Facts are independent of what you experience. 

My mum has a tendency of using several fallacies when she's arguing to support her narrative instead of using reasoning. In one instance I asked my mum can I do something. I had these pomegranate peels that I wanted to dry and since our kitchen is void of any windows and has no incoming sunlight, it didn't dry very much like it would have otherwise. And since my sister is at university and her car is sitting in the parking lot outside in the sun, I figured I could put the peels (which were in a baking pan) in her car for one day in the sun so they can dry and I can do what I want with them. I asked my mum for permission and she said no. I asked her why and she initially said the peels would put an odor in the car and I told her the peels absolutely had no smell, and even offered for her to smell it, which she did and admitted that it had no smell. The next reasoning she used was that it would make the car messy and I told her that the peels are in a tray in a car that's non moving; it would be impossible for the peels to move haphazardly when the car is stagnant unless the car was hit. She then moved on to say that she doesn't want them in her car because I was being selfish and didn't bother to ask for my sister's permission first, so I offered to call her right that instance and ask her (which I was very confident she'd say yes since my sister is fairly chill) and my mother told me that "it doesn't matter [what she says] because I still don't want them in her car." I, again, told her that her reasoning is stupid and we got into another back and forth; it pretty much ended with her saying that "I'm your parent and it doesn't matter if what I say is stupid or not." Arguments like these showcase her reasoning the majority of the time.


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