# Forer Effect



## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

The *Forer effect* (also called the *Barnum effect* after P. T. Barnum's observation that "we've got something for everyone") is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. This effect can provide a partial explanation for the widespread acceptance of some beliefs and practices, such as astrology, fortune telling, graphology, religion, aura reading and some types of personality tests.

Barnum effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's something that occured to me. 

I can see myself both being INFp and INFj according to the following descriptions:

Socionics Types:
Socionics Types:


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

The ILI descriptions definitely appeal to the forer effect. I've always typed as an ILI without fail, and I match the descriptions very well. Yet my lead function is clearly Ti. LSI and LII don't sit with me at all, so the descriptions must be utter crap.

I equate with vulnerable Fe and suggestive Fe. That is appalling.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

First rule: NEVER rely on descriptions(or on tests for that matter). They are here just to help not to define. Pay close attention to every dichotomy there is: Jung dichotomies, Reinin ds etc. Also pay attention to quadras. With much introspection and with much time and effort will your true type be shown. Most of the time by pure luck/chance. It's the same as duals: it's invisible until it's really necessary.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

@Ixim
I did pay attention to all these things. They're far too open to interpretation. Whatever type I am, the gamma quadra values match me perfectly. But once I finally started to understand the functions in practise, rather than in theory, I realised I am a Ti lead.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> @_Ixim_
> I did pay attention to all these things. They're far too open to interpretation. Whatever type I am, the gamma quadra values match me perfectly. But once I finally started to understand the functions in practise, rather than in theory, I realised I am a Ti lead.


How so? Can you give an example of Ti lead?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

@Fried Eggz, I have the same problem. Four-letter dichotomies, reinin traits, tests, and descriptions all strongly point toward ILI for me, but that is impossible because I'm not Ni, no matter how I look at it. I should be Ti base probably, yet not much of what socionics claims about LII is accurate for me, and I'm not referring to just descriptions. Then again, I don't think I'm even that Ti so maybe none of the base functions fit.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Stop thinking about yourself and ask others. You're probably in the same spot I was when I was "certain" that I was an IEE(NeFi lol). If you can't do it yourself(find someone else to do it for free that is), then pay a professional MBTI expert.

...I don't really see what the problem is.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Stop thinking about yourself and ask others. You're probably in the same spot I was when I was "certain" that I was an IEE(NeFi lol). If you can't do it yourself(find someone else to do it for free that is), then pay a professional MBTI expert.
> 
> ...I don't really see what the problem is.


Asking others wouldn't solve anything. The problem is that even if I am an LII (or any other type, for that matter), it isn't accurate enough to be useful or satisfying. 

Most likely, socionics just isn't the perfect system people believe it to be, and not everyone fits one of the cognitive models. 

If I pay a professional to type me, what will happen is I will at first accept the typing. Then I will sooner or later begin to feel dissatisfied with it because it doesn't seem to be very accurate. Then someone will ask me why I'm that type, and I'll find myself saying something like "It's the closest, though it doesn't fit particularly well." And then a day later I will decide there's no point in typing as that type when it's mostly inaccurate, so I will try to forget about socionics again, try to convince myself it doesn't work.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Asking others wouldn't solve anything. The problem is that even if I am an LII (or any other type, for that matter), it isn't accurate enough to be useful or satisfying.
> 
> Most likely, socionics just isn't the perfect system people believe it to be, and not everyone fits one of the cognitive models.
> 
> If I pay a professional to type me, what will happen is I will at first accept the typing. Then I will sooner or later begin to feel dissatisfied with it because it doesn't seem to be very accurate. Then someone will ask me why I'm that type, and I'll find myself saying something like "It's the closest, though it doesn't fit particularly well." And then a day later I will decide there's no point in typing as that type when it's mostly inaccurate, so I will try to forget about socionics again, try to convince myself it doesn't work.


Wanna bet I can solve your puzzle? I'd need a birth chart(if psych fails, astro surely won't).


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Ixim said:


> Stop thinking about yourself and ask others. You're probably in the same spot I was when I was "certain" that I was an IEE(NeFi lol). If you can't do it yourself(find someone else to do it for free that is), then pay a professional MBTI expert.


You mean one of the morons who typed Judge Judy as an ESTJ? No thanks.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> You mean one of the morons who typed Judge Judy as an ESTJ? No thanks.


Tbh, I have an irrefutible proof that I'm an ESI. Here: Free Chart - Astrodienst

and for a further reference, here is a keystone between psych and astro: A Brief Introduction to Astrology: The four Elements - Astrodienst

Now, please FEEL FREE to count the elements in my chart. Predominant Water? F you say? The second strongest being Earth? S you say? Now, how do we know if it is FeSi or FiSe? Easy. Count the number of things that are in the upper part of the chart(above the Asc) and the number of things in the bottom part. This will tell you whether you are an introvert or an extrovert. So, let's see shall we? 6-7 in the bottom part vs 4 in the upper part. That means: FiSe. FiSe = ESI. Further, my Asc is in Capricorn, which is a cardinal earth sign which would quite explain why people tell me that I remind them of an Se subtype of FiSe.

QED!


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

@Ixim

Poe's Law. I can't tell if you're trolling or not.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

babblingbrook said:


> The *Forer effect* (also called the *Barnum effect* after P. T. Barnum's observation that "we've got something for everyone") is the observation that individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically for them, but are in fact vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people. This effect can provide a partial explanation for the widespread acceptance of some beliefs and practices, such as astrology, fortune telling, graphology, religion, aura reading and some types of personality tests.
> 
> Barnum effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


I find the Fi vs. Fe descriptions in Socionics to be vague enough that I thought I was Fi in that system. I find the weakest function descriptions to be most useful in Socionics. INFps struggle interpreting body cues, INFjs struggle to interpret when someone is hitting on them. INFjs don't trust their skill with applying cold logic, INFps don't trust their skill with bodies of knowledge. Those are distinct differences, and not particularly vague. I pick up manipulation and power plays etc very very easily. I'm comfortable with using cold Ti. But my health? Jesus, I forget I have a body half the time and I have no idea how to put what I experience into perspective. And I'm never confident I understand a subject properly no matter how much I study it.


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## Pressed Flowers (Oct 8, 2014)

I don't know, the Socionics descriptions make it pretty clear for me that I'm Fe/Ni. I understand the Forer effect can be an issue when going into personality types - it made me think I was INFP for quite some while - but I think the Socionics function descriptions really are exceptionally better than most.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

alittlebear said:


> I don't know, the Socionics descriptions make it pretty clear for me that I'm Fe/Ni.


The Socionics descriptions make it pretty clear to me that I'm Ni-Te.

But I'm not. I think I am an LSI, because Ti is my life, and I hate Si & Ne. The LSI descriptions do not describe me. The descriptions of ignoring Te is the polar opposite of my personality.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> The Socionics descriptions make it pretty clear to me that I'm Ni-Te.
> 
> But I'm not. I think I am an LSI, because Ti is my life, and I hate Si & Ne. The LSI descriptions do not describe me. The descriptions of ignoring Te is the polar opposite of my personality.


Are you going by function use descriptions? Because I know as an IEI my use of Ne is high. Maybe that's your use of Te by their description?


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## The_Wanderer (Jun 13, 2013)

Stop looking at descriptions.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

This is something I never understood because it doesn't work on me 

I would think it's more likely to affect Feelers, as they care more about what makes them feel good rather than what's actually true.


For example, Fi dom is very in-tune with what things it most highly values. and so it will naturally try to break and bend reality so as it fit itself into what it perceives to be the best category.


Same story with Fe, but it's going to be with a reverse attitude--what society deems as the best.


Te is only weakly in-tune with what it likes, and so this plays little affect on its judgement, as it cares much more about what is objectively true and provable.


Ti is weakly in-tune with what society values and cares more about what is subjectively true. It will tend to ignore the system set in place and make its own rules of logical deduction that often don't reflect reality (as it's based on the subject's version of reality and not on objective reality).


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> @_Ixim_
> 
> Poe's Law. I can't tell if you're trolling or not.


I am not trolling. How could a FiSe troll, come on! It's not the part of our personality(unless we're feeling vindictive towards something).

Just give it a shot and see what falls out...


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

emberfly said:


> This is something I never understood because it doesn't work on me
> 
> I would think it's more likely to affect Feelers, as they care more about what makes them feel good rather than what's actually true.
> 
> ...


I think what you're describing has a lot more to do with enneagram than functions. As a 1, my Fe just makes me extra aware of what other people are like--but I don't use that information to be what they want. What I think is best and right is a much higher priority, and I'm not prone to seeing strengths where there are none. I'm very focused on accurately identifying my strengths and weaknesses because I use that information too much to get it wrong for my ego. I need to know all the things I suck at that need fixing, and I need to know my genuine strengths to know the best way to go about fixing them.

And I've seen Te doms who believed they were the "best" type, they just use external standards to decide "best."
And Ti users who can make an argument for being any type, so even a weak desire to be a certain type can throw them off.


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## aendern (Dec 28, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> As a 1, my Fe just makes me extra aware of what other people are like--but I don't use that information to be what they want. What I think is best and right is a much higher priority, and I'm not prone to seeing strengths where there are none.


But you base your idea of "strengths" off societal opinion. If society thought the females who were cutesy and feminine were better than the tougher, more rugged girls, then you would want to embody that former ideal, no?

If society thought being smart was a good thing, you would want to be smart. If society thought being good at sports was highly desirable, you would want _that _for yourself.



> I'm very focused on accurately identifying my strengths and weaknesses because I use that information too much to get it wrong for my ego. I need to know all the things I suck at that need fixing, and I need to know my genuine strengths to know the best way to go about fixing them.


How do you go about determining what is a strength or a weakness of yours?



> And I've seen Te doms who believed they were the "best" type, they just use external standards to decide "best."


Yes, definitely.



> And Ti users who can make an argument for being any type, so even a weak desire to be a certain type can throw them off.


Very correct.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

emberfly said:


> But you base your idea of "strengths" off societal opinion. If society thought the females who were cutesy and feminine were better than the tougher, more rugged girls, then you would want to embody that former ideal, no?
> 
> If society thought being smart was a good thing, you would want to be smart. If society thought being good at sports was highly desirable, you would want _that _for yourself.
> 
> ...


I determine my strengths based on what I get good results with and what I do better than others in, weaknesses as the opposite. I use systems like socionics to get perspective on areas so weak I can't even tell I suck (like Si). But my standards aren't from others. Fe is involved, but primarily just keeps me focused on what's best for other people. Most people are idiots about that, and enjoy the suffering of the wrong kind of people. I don't think that's acceptable, though I don't think people are bad for it. It's how we're wired. I think as an INFJ I'm in a particularly ideal place to help people see how to rise above the shitty parts of how our brains work.

My standards are based on what I think is right or perfect, and I don't really feel any pressure to reference others for it. I've nearly failed classes because I wouldn't turn in an assignment that everyone thought was amazing and I knew would get 100%, because it wasn't good enough for me. I could see how it could be better and couldn't stand to stop short of that.

I competed with boys and never cared what girls are supposed to be. When stressed I can get 4ish taking pride in being different but mostly I think what I am is the best I can be. Trying to fit into other standards would make me weaker. I burn out any flaws I can't stand and if others don't recognize my strengths I usually take that to mean we're just incompatible, and I just want to help them understand. But I don't change for them.

I'd say being smart is important to me and emotional intelligence is extremely undervalued in our society. That makes me go on rants about the limitations of IQ tests, it doesn't make me want to get better at them. I also tend to rant a lot about how overvalued linear thinking is, vs abstract thinking. I don't give the weaknesses of those things a pass, either--INFJs in particular can struggle to be disciplined with checking their intuition against objective reality. I tend to test very high in Te because I work to stay extremely aware of that weakness. Te still isn't a strength and never will be. Constant effort can only earn minimal competence. Which I work for to strengthen my dominant function, not because other people expect it. NiFe is more useful with Te.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Ixim said:


> Just give it a shot and see what falls out...


Give what a shot?

As far as I can tell, some website is telling you that you're Earth and Water, and you're interpreting that as you being an SF. Well, who told the website? How do you know that Water isn't Feeling and Earth being rational or something else? How do you know it has anything to do with personality type?

None of what you said makes any sense. It just seems to be a thousand highly questionable assumptions.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Just give it a shot and see what falls out...


Pisces with aquarius moon and most of the things in the upper part. Guess I'm an ENFj.


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## tangosthenes (Oct 29, 2011)

If you ignore systematic descriptions, you might as well ignore the whole thing. Make sure you know what is and isn't going to arise in a behavior so that you can test the validity of descriptions as you come on them. If they pass your test, but they don't fit the real world, that's when something is wrong somewhere.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> Give what a shot?
> 
> As far as I can tell, some website is telling you that you're Earth and Water, and you're interpreting that as you being an SF. Well, who told the website? How do you know that Water isn't Feeling and Earth being rational or something else? How do you know it has anything to do with personality type?
> 
> None of what you said makes any sense. It just seems to be a thousand highly questionable assumptions.


Just stop thinking and do! What are you afraid of? If anyone fails and embarasses itself it's ME! What does it cost you? Literally nothing.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Pisces with aquarius moon and most of the things in the upper part. Guess I'm an ENFj.


I'd need to see it fully.


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## Valtire (Jan 1, 2014)

Ixim said:


> Just stop thinking and do! What are you afraid of? If anyone fails and embarasses itself it's ME! What does it cost you? Literally nothing.


I don't need to try it to know that it's completely unfounded. You need dual exposure.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Fried Eggz said:


> I don't need to try it to know that it's completely unfounded. You need dual exposure.


Well, what if I do? :kitteh: TeNi always so good, but TeSi could be equally good imo. Both are very sexy.

Thanks. But don't cry that I didn't try to help! :wink:


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Well, what if I do? :kitteh: TeNi always so good, but TeSi could be equally good imo. Both are very sexy.
> 
> Thanks. But don't cry that I didn't try to help! :wink:


I think you could use a good Ni user to help you sort out the noise from the meaningful patterns.

And, your assertion that there's no harm in trying this kind of stuff isn't quite true. At least as an INFJ, I have to guard VERY carefully against influential psuedoscience, because I'm inclined to buy into that shit too much.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

@Ixim

I'm going to show you the full chart:
Free Chart - Astrodienst

Now I'm going to tell you why this isn't going to work, so you can make an informed decision. 

1) Astrology makes assertions about reality (all people born in X month will have certain qualities) with no scientific basis. It is absurd from the standpoint of both logic and actual observation. Astrology has been around for ages and has been the subject of many scientific studies, and in all this time no one has been able to prove that it works, because it does not work. If you were to conduct a scientific study aimed to prove that astrology can predict personality, you too would be disappointed by the results. 
2) Without a scientific approach, no one sees the whole picture, only tiny pieces of it here and there. Sometimes these pieces seem like they fit together coherently, but if you had access to all the pieces, you would see that you can no longer arrange them in the pattern you thought you were seeing. 
3) Forer Effect. When people do not closely and objectively examine astrological descriptions, they may think their sign fits them without realizing they could have interpreted multiple signs as fitting them. They seem to fit because they involve qualities that many or even most people can relate to. Even if not everything in a description fits, surely at least some of it will be accurate, simply by statistical likelihood. 
4) People remember the hits and forget the misses. When it works we get excited, and when it doesn't work, we think "Oh well, guess it isn't perfect for everyone," or we try to rationalize why it didn't work that time. You may be sure that it works because it worked so well for you and a handful of people you know. Maybe it was freakily accurate for you, and you decided it couldn't be a coincidence. But of course astrology will sometimes be freakily accurate, even beyond what might be explained by the Forer Effect. But that's because lucky guesses are statistically likely to occur some of the time. Like someone who predicts coinflips with 80% accuracy on a good day. It's not going to be 50% accuracy all the time, because chance involves variability.
5) Interpretation gives different results depending on the method. You might have your own method for interpreting the charts, but there could be a thousand other methods. How do you know that out of all possible methods, you have chosen the one correct way? Have you found that other people tend to interpret it in roughly identical ways? How do you know that this method of interpretation works? Have you tested its accuracy scientifically? Is your method objective and consistent, or do you bend it until it fits what you're seeing in the person? I looked at more than one birth chart description and they were very different, even though they were supposed to be describing the same thing. If I wanted, I could keep searching until I found an interpretation of my chart that fits me. Does that make my chart meaningful?

Now, after having read this, do you still want to attempt an interpretation?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> @_Ixim_
> 
> I'm going to show you the full chart:
> Free Chart - Astrodienst
> ...


Now I understand your beef. A grand square with a perpendicular opposition forming the axis of it! O.M.G. It's beautiful! Ominous, but still beautiful. You've got some big potentials if you overcome those obstacles. More like roadblocks made of tank hulls! But the bounty should be worth it.

Anyhow, about your concerns:

1. It's not disproved either. Besides, if astrology is false, so is psychology. Note that I said psychology, not neurology or neuroscience or even psychiatry. Besides, I don't really trust science. Science is...a way for some people to flex their muscle. Especially so when surrounded by people who are more competent in every possible way. Let's compare an archetypal scientist(Newton, Einstein) to a true man(say, king Conan) or to a man with a real soul(say, Martin Luther King). How is scientist supposed to cope with either of those two? Simple: HE CAN'T. So he devises circles and totally abstract things and instructs all the weakling freaks(sorry, but it's true) into that so that they could dominate both of the latter. And, funny thing, they actually succeed in it! Don't forget that science itself was born from observations of weirdos(yeah Archimedes wasn't a weirdo-NOT AT ALL!) about the movement of sands and of movement of celestial bodies. Most of it having roots in astrology itself.

2. The complete picture is impossible to grasp imo. For the exact same reasom why you can't draw an 8D drawing-it defies our current understanding. Astrology has up to 14D, so ofc you can't see the whole picture! Unless you won a nobel for maths or soming.

3. That's because what you wrote is true. You are not a single sign. Some signs(those where important things such as Sun, Moon, Asc, MC are located) are ofc more important than others. Others with generational planets in them(slow rotating planets such as Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) barely have any meaning unless the planet is heavily aspected or there is another important thing there. But you are a sum of all your signs, planets and houses, modified by aspects between those celestial bodies. Hence, you shouldn't even look heavily into a single sign(unless you have a Stellium /shrug). Not only that but every single respected astrologist will tell you the following "Sun astrology is C.R.A.P. and utterly pointless", Sun astro being the crap in newspapers. When talking about real astro, we're talking about personality astrology(Placidus), predictive astrology(mostly Koch, but there are some wonderful ancient systems), traditional astrology(thing that mr.Hand could really explain to you in REALLY interesting way) and relational astrology(also known as Synastry). But still, it's largely incomprehensible due to dimensionality of astrology. Which does not make it wrong. Just incomprehensible today. Be careful not to take the position of a Roman soldier poking poor, insane Archimedes with his circles in sand...

4. Or maybe the occasion for what happened wasn't grand and it was more of a spiritual thing. There are some occasions that if misfired could shakle anyone's belief, mine included. But! You need to have a really broad and detailed approach to life in order to notice some of these. A thing you, my dear, surely do have. It's easy to dismiss if it was something small likewise. People expect violent revolutions and grand parades all the time and sometimes they get a simple hello.

5. Totally agreed with this point. It's a jumbled mess that really annoys my valued Te. And it's really difficult to systemise as well. I'll agree with you onthis one. Ultimately, it raises the dimensionality above and beyond every sane understanding. You could go crazy from this. But you could go crazy from Science fields as well(Maths especially).

Here's my educated guess. Try to think about it. What I see isn't ENFj. I see, most likely an ENFp, maybe even ExFp. I'll try to up the ante. I can't sorry. E, F and p are certain as they can go. Anyhow, my final answer would be:

ENFp, Fi subtype. Which is not at all strange for a pisces-a traditional NFP sign.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Now I understand your beef. A grand square with a perpendicular opposition forming the axis of it! O.M.G. It's beautiful! Ominous, but still beautiful. You've got some big potentials if you overcome those obstacles. More like roadblocks made of tank hulls! But the bounty should be worth it.
> 
> Anyhow, about your concerns:
> 
> 1. It's not disproved either. Besides, if astrology is false, so is psychology. Note that I said psychology, not neurology or neuroscience or even psychiatry. *Besides, I don't really trust science. Science is...a way for some people to flex their muscle.* Especially so when surrounded by people who are more competent in every possible way. Let's compare an archetypal scientist(Newton, Einstein) to a true man(say, king Conan) or to a man with a real soul(say, Martin Luther King). How is scientist supposed to cope with either of those two? Simple: HE CAN'T. So he devises circles and totally abstract things and instructs all the weakling freaks(sorry, but it's true) into that so that they could dominate both of the latter. And, funny thing, they actually succeed in it! Don't forget that science itself was born from observations of weirdos(yeah Archimedes wasn't a weirdo-NOT AT ALL!) about the movement of sands and of movement of celestial bodies. Most of it having roots in astrology itself.


Jesus kljsfaklsjfdlskfjdsklfj christ, I don't even ... WAT. Wat? I don't even.. *This physically hurts me. *That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.


I am morbidly curious what you read in my tea leaves, though. You seem very committed to this. Free Chart - Astrodienst


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

ruskiix said:


> Jesus kljsfaklsjfdlskfjdsklfj christ, I don't even ... WAT. Wat? I don't even.. *This physically hurts me. *That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
> 
> 
> I am morbidly curious what you read in my tea leaves, though. You seem very committed to this. Free Chart - Astrodienst


Do you want me to continue? I had a guilt when posting that due to you and the people who could be harmed by this. I REALLY did!


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Now I understand your beef. A grand square with a perpendicular opposition forming the axis of it! O.M.G. It's beautiful! Ominous, but still beautiful. You've got some big potentials if you overcome those obstacles. More like roadblocks made of tank hulls! But the bounty should be worth it.


You are not making sense. Are you seriously claiming that I have some vague "obstacles" and "big potentials" purely on the basis that the chart looks pretty to you?



> 1. It's not disproved either. Besides, if astrology is false, so is psychology. Note that I said psychology, not neurology or neuroscience or even psychiatry.


Why would astrology being false mean that psychology is also false? Because astrological descriptions sound psychological? Sorry, but that doesn't work. They are not the same thing, you are mixing apples and oranges. Psychology is the scientific study of human behavior, which means it bases its conclusions on actual reality. Astrology merely guesses who people are without any observation or reason, and these guesses have not been shown to be accurate in actual reality. That is what science is, by the way. Testing whether things are accurate in reality. If you ignore science, you are by definition ignoring the testing of beliefs against actual reality. You're ignoring reality. 



> Besides, I don't really trust science. Science is...a way for some people to flex their muscle. Especially so when surrounded by people who are more competent in every possible way. Let's compare an archetypal scientist(Newton, Einstein) to a true man(say, king Conan) or to a man with a real soul(say, Martin Luther King). How is scientist supposed to cope with either of those two? Simple: HE CAN'T. So he devises circles and totally abstract things and instructs all the weakling freaks(sorry, but it's true) into that so that they could dominate both of the latter. And, funny thing, they actually succeed in it! Don't forget that science itself was born from observations of weirdos(yeah Archimedes wasn't a weirdo-NOT AT ALL!) about the movement of sands and of movement of celestial bodies. Most of it having roots in astrology itself.


How you personally feel about science and men with "real soul" may explain why you think the way you do, but it has nothing to do with whether astrology is accurate. 



> 2. The complete picture is impossible to grasp imo. For the exact same reasom why you can't draw an 8D drawing-it defies our current understanding. Astrology has up to 14D, so ofc you can't see the whole picture! Unless you won a nobel for maths or soming.


It's impossible to see the complete picture, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean anything goes. Think of it this way. It's impossible to see the full picture of how your actions will affect people. Does that mean you should just not care and step on everyone?



> 3. That's because what you wrote is true. You are not a single sign. Some signs(those where important things such as Sun, Moon, Asc, MC are located) are ofc more important than others. Others with generational planets in them(slow rotating planets such as Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) barely have any meaning unless the planet is heavily aspected or there is another important thing there. But you are a sum of all your signs, planets and houses, modified by aspects between those celestial bodies. Hence, you shouldn't even look heavily into a single sign(unless you have a Stellium /shrug). Not only that but every single respected astrologist will tell you the following "Sun astrology is C.R.A.P. and utterly pointless", Sun astro being the crap in newspapers. When talking about real astro, we're talking about personality astrology(Placidus), predictive astrology(mostly Koch, but there are some wonderful ancient systems), traditional astrology(thing that mr.Hand could really explain to you in REALLY interesting way) and relational astrology(also known as Synastry). But still, it's largely incomprehensible due to dimensionality of astrology. Which does not make it wrong. Just incomprehensible today. Be careful not to take the position of a Roman soldier poking poor, insane Archimedes with his circles in sand...


Fair enough. But it loses its usefulness and meaning if you try to explain away everything that doesn't make sense by saying it's too complex to fully understand. You could say that about anything. I could tell you you're actually an ENTp, and if you disagree I could tell you to just believe because it really does work but it's just too complex to understand why. 



> 4. Or maybe the occasion for what happened wasn't grand and it was more of a spiritual thing. There are some occasions that if misfired could shakle anyone's belief, mine included. But! You need to have a really broad and detailed approach to life in order to notice some of these. A thing you, my dear, surely do have. It's easy to dismiss if it was something small likewise. People expect violent revolutions and grand parades all the time and sometimes they get a simple hello.


And how do you know when something is a real spiritual thing? Obviously not everything can be, and you have to be able to tell the difference between a spiritual experience and a nonspiritual coincidence.



> Here's my educated guess. Try to think about it. What I see isn't ENFj. I see, most likely an ENFp, maybe even ExFp. I'll try to up the ante. I can't sorry. E, F and p are certain as they can go. Anyhow, my final answer would be:
> 
> ENFp, Fi subtype. Which is not at all strange for a pisces-a traditional NFP sign.


I find I have little in common with Ne-doms or Exxp types visually, behaviorally, and cognitively. I am also certainly not an Ethical type, as I tend to avoid all subjective (feeling-tinged or "good" vs. "bad") labels, in favor of focusing on the purely objective (neutral and free of feeling/value labels) side of reality.


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## ruskiix (Sep 28, 2013)

Ixim said:


> Do you want me to continue? I had a guilt when posting that due to you and the people who could be harmed by this. I REALLY did!


I find your line of thinking interesting even if I don't believe it's based in reality. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel bad =( I just wanted to point out that it is something that can be difficult for some types. I'm pretty used to correcting that impulse by now, though.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> You are not making sense. Are you seriously claiming that I have some vague "obstacles" and "big potentials" purely on the basis that the chart looks pretty to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, fair enough. Besides, I feel the Ti. I just do. It's like that feeling when someone's trying to implement anal probe into you(so he could contact aliens? lol), I just know it is there. Either that or you are deadset and so biased that it's impossible to talk.

I was wrong. There you have it. Relish in your stupid academic Ti victory. fking Ti losers. edit: you can safely put J in your type. I really doubt you are anything but either TiNe or TiSe(prolly later, but quite possibly the former due to a problem in communication between us). I'd say TiNe personally.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Ok, fair enough. Besides, I feel the Ti. I just do. It's like that feeling when someone's trying to implement anal probe into you(so he could contact aliens? lol), I just know it is there. Either that or you are deadset and so biased that it's impossible to talk.
> 
> I was wrong. There you have it. Relish in your stupid academic Ti victory. fking Ti losers. edit: you can safely put J in your type. I really doubt you are anything but either TiNe or TiSe(prolly later, but quite possibly the former due to a problem in communication between us). I'd say TiNe personally.


Right. What an awful loser who likes to "relish in academic victory" I am for disagreeing with you. I'm probably a bully too. This was totally a competition. 

I do not tolerate being misread.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Right. What an awful loser who likes to "relish in academic victory" I am for disagreeing with you. I'm probably a bully too. This was totally a competition.
> 
> I do not tolerate being misread.


Of course you don't. Which Ti does? To you people truth is above anything. Above relations, above laws, really above anything.

And I wanted to excuse myself. I won't bring out of field knowledge into discussions where it shouldn't be used. It wasn't ok from my side.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Of course you don't. Which Ti does? To you people truth is above anything. Above relations, above laws, really above anything.
> 
> And I wanted to excuse myself. I won't bring out of field knowledge into discussions where it shouldn't be used. It wasn't ok from my side.


Out of curiosity, could you have a relationship based on lies? Could you be okay believing something if it isn't true? It's hard for me to understand how truth and reality could be not valued.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Out of curiosity, could you have a relationship based on lies? Could you be okay believing something if it isn't true? It's hard for me to understand how truth and reality could be not valued.


I am hard on truth as well, but not adamant on it. The dosage is different if you will. I have no problem believing in something if the truth is...stretched out-both personal and nonpersonal. In flatout lies-especially if caught redhanded? Lol no.

As I said, I am not adamant on it.

edit: I can be kinda dastardly and maximise the potential(which is apparent but negative) from this conversation. And I will be. Did my conviction remind you of FiSe? Or of something else?


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Ixim said:


> I am not trolling. How could a FiSe troll, come on! It's not the part of our personality(unless we're feeling vindictive towards something).
> 
> Just give it a shot and see what falls out...


Just curious about what you have to say about my chart. I am not exactly sure about the time of birth (should be around 1 am, but in my country it is +1 UTC). Not sure how to enter the right time...

Free Chart - Astrodienst 

MBTI and socionics are not scientific and they can never be in my idea, because subjective qualities, intentionality and mental states cannot be explained in naturalistic terms. They are simply instruments.

Astrology and numerology is fun.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> edit: I can be kinda dastardly and maximise the potential(which is apparent but negative) from this conversation. And I will be. Did my conviction remind you of FiSe? Or of something else?


It reminded me of Ni HA and weak Logic, and a little bit FiSe. Also your writing style is similar to what I've seen in another ESI. It always has a certain vagueness, making it often hard to tell what you mean and what your intentions are.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

babblingbrook said:


> Just curious about what you have to say about my chart. I am not exactly sure about the time of birth (should be around 1 am, but in my country it is +1 UTC). Not sure how to enter the right time...
> 
> Free Chart - Astrodienst
> 
> ...


First of all, if it doesn't change that much, it's not some spectacular chart. Certainly not like Silver's. Let's see:

Mars opposed by both Saturn and Uranus. Do you have any problems with your temper? No matter if it's a hothead or totally resigned spectrum. There are some challenges there(due to Saturn's presence) and certainly a lot of energy going around. Yet it is trined to Venus. Which most likely could indicate that you have either a lot of energy for arts(or for women) or for both! The fact that Venus is opposed by a Pluto indicates some sort of a rebirth through either art or a relationship. A rebirth through higher education travel that will have an impact on your core abilities. Hm.

If I had to do the MBTI thing, I'd say: INFp or in other words: NiFe indeed. With a moon conj Asc and everything being in Cap, there is some talk about ISFp especially due to almost all important stuff being in Earth(Sun, Moon, Asc). I will now write a list of short sentences that pertain to your chart:

The key is: "sign" modifies a "planet" with a focus on "house".

1. Your duty modifies your home with a focus on being. This energy needs to be combined with the energy of your expansion and is combined with your spritual energy.

2. Your personality modifies your expansion with a focus on physical. It goes very easily with the energies of duty and change.

3. Your physical presence(Aries + Taurus) modifies your relationships with a focus on thinking. It goes very easily towards the energies of duty, spirituality and change, easily with the energy of being, but is overexcited by the energy of transformation.

4. Your body(hm? Physical does not make sense) modifies your self expression with a focus on home environment. A physical self expression in familiar environments. It needs to be adjusted to energy of change.

5. Your thinking modifies your communication with a focus on home environment. It needs to be adjusted to the energies of change and spirituality.

6. Your thinking modifies your being with a focus on daily work. It is overexcited by the energies of duty and change.

7. Your fate(actually transformation) modifies your transformation with a focus on expansion. Possibly also "Your transformation modifies your sexuality with a focus on expansion".

8. Your expansion modifies your duty with a focus on change/friends. It is combined with the energy of change.

9. Your expansion modifies your friends with a focus on spirituality.

10. Your duty modifies your beliefs with a focus on spirituality. It goes easily with the energy of transformation.

That's that! Enjoy!


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> It reminded me of Ni HA and weak Logic, and a little bit FiSe. Also your writing style is similar to what I've seen in another ESI. It always has a certain vagueness, making it often hard to tell what you mean and what your intentions are.


I'm sorry, but Ni HA? See, to me HA = Heroes Ascent(silly Guild Wars).


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> I'm sorry, but Ni HA? See, to me HA = Heroes Ascent(silly Guild Wars).


Hidden Agenda (Mobilizing/Tertiary).

http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/120709-any-thoughts-hidden-agenda.html


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> Hidden Agenda (Mobilizing/Tertiary).
> 
> http://personalitycafe.com/socionics-forum/120709-any-thoughts-hidden-agenda.html


Ah, I just caught your meaning in that upper post. Lol, you said I act like a politician! Think one, do another and mean the third thing :happy:

Where do you see Ni HA?


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Ah, I just caught your meaning in that upper post. Lol, you said I act like a politician! Think one, do another and mean the third thing :happy:


That's not exactly what I meant. I don't get the impression that you're being deceptive, more like you aren't always clear in your communication and don't give enough context to help the reader understand what you mean. As if your posts are more for you than for the reader. I sometimes get this impression from IEIs as well.



Ixim said:


> Where do you see Ni HA?


These posts:



Ixim said:


> Tbh, I have an irrefutible proof that I'm an ESI. Here: Free Chart - Astrodienst
> 
> and for a further reference, here is a keystone between psych and astro: A Brief Introduction to Astrology: The four Elements - Astrodienst
> 
> ...





Ixim said:


> Now I understand your beef. A grand square with a perpendicular opposition forming the axis of it! O.M.G. It's beautiful! Ominous, but still beautiful. You've got some big potentials if you overcome those obstacles. More like roadblocks made of tank hulls! But the bounty should be worth it.





Ixim said:


> 4. Or maybe the occasion for what happened wasn't grand and it was more of a spiritual thing. There are some occasions that if misfired could shakle anyone's belief, mine included. But! You need to have a really broad and detailed approach to life in order to notice some of these. A thing you, my dear, surely do have. It's easy to dismiss if it was something small likewise. People expect violent revolutions and grand parades all the time and sometimes they get a simple hello.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> That's not exactly what I meant. I don't get the impression that you're being deceptive, more like you aren't always clear in your communication and don't give enough context to help the reader understand what you mean. As if your posts are more for you than for the reader. I sometimes get this impression from IEIs as well.
> 
> 
> 
> These posts:


Like I am thinking aloud more than talking/interacting with a person? Ah crap! It's a personal defect, to which I readily admit. I prefer thinking aloud to talking to people. Much less resistance and stupidity that way(and you sort your impressions much, MUCH better that way). Thank you for this. This could help me greatly in future. Specifically when in job interviews and such.

And for the second, forgive my obliviousness, but how?


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Ixim said:


> First of all, if it doesn't change that much, it's not some spectacular chart. Certainly not like Silver's. Let's see:
> 
> Mars opposed by both Saturn and Uranus. Do you have any problems with your temper? No matter if it's a hothead or totally resigned spectrum. There are some challenges there(due to Saturn's presence) and certainly a lot of energy going around. Yet it is trined to Venus. Which most likely could indicate that you have either a lot of energy for arts(or for women) or for both! The fact that Venus is opposed by a Pluto indicates some sort of a rebirth through either art or a relationship. A rebirth through higher education travel that will have an impact on your core abilities. Hm.
> 
> If I had to do the MBTI thing, I'd say: INFp or in other words: NiFe indeed. With a moon conj Asc and everything being in Cap, there is some talk about ISFp especially due to almost all important stuff being in Earth(Sun, Moon, Asc). I will now write a list of short sentences that pertain to your chart:


I have very good self-control (have been told this many times) and am quite self-contained and highly calm/phlegmatic. I'm the opposite of what you call hothead.

I actually live for the arts. Reminds me of Sokanu (holland code test), on which I score mostly _artistic_: Creative, intuitive, sensitive, articulate, and expressive. They are unstructured, original, nonconforming, and innovative. They rely on feelings, imagination, and inspiration. They like to work with ideas, abstractions, and concepts. They are spontaneous and open-minded.
When it comes to women I am quite the hopeless romantic. If it says anything to you, I want to live in the movie Bright Star.

So it seems to be quite spot on.

I actually worked with the theme of rebirth in my artwork, in quite a concrete way (evolution, extinction, resurrection and human influence on the relationship between humans and animals). Where did you get all this information from? Is it your interpretation?

Now you come to mention it, I never really identified with being a Taurus, since it is an Earth sign. But you make it sound more accurate.



> The key is: "sign" modifies a "planet" with a focus on "house".
> 
> 1. Your duty modifies your home with a focus on being. This energy needs to be combined with the energy of your expansion and is combined with your spritual energy.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how to read this. Can you help me out with one of these so I can figure out the rest?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

babblingbrook said:


> I have very good self-control (have been told this many times) and am quite self-contained and highly calm/phlegmatic. I'm the opposite of what you call hothead.
> 
> I actually live for the arts. Reminds me of Sokanu (holland code test), on which I score mostly _artistic_: Creative, intuitive, sensitive, articulate, and expressive. They are unstructured, original, nonconforming, and innovative. They rely on feelings, imagination, and inspiration. They like to work with ideas, abstractions, and concepts. They are spontaneous and open-minded.
> When it comes to women I am quite the hopeless romantic. If it says anything to you, I want to live in the movie Bright Star.
> ...


All about what I wrote in the first part was 110% me. I was right in every instance. It'd seem I have aknack for this, no?

The last numbered part was more for me. Silveresque told me that I shouldn't write/communicate like that in this very thread. It cost me a lot of power and energy because do you see all those Ti elements lol? I simplified it so I could continue later without forgetting where I was. That's astro 101 btw. How you should think inside while doing a reading and then when cross referenced with other aspects, you find the most likely fact. That's why words sometimes change etc. What would "Transformation modifies transformation" mean otherwise? Hint: Inception looper style oooh.

How are you overall satisfied?


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> It reminded me of Ni HA and weak Logic, and a little bit FiSe. Also your writing style is similar to what I've seen in another ESI. It always has a certain vagueness, making it often hard to tell what you mean and what your intentions are.


Hey Silver! Do you think I sound more like an ESI or like an EII?

edit: curse you @reckful !


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## babblingbrook (Aug 10, 2009)

Ixim said:


> All about what I wrote in the first part was 110% me. I was right in every instance. It'd seem I have aknack for this, no?
> 
> The last numbered part was more for me. Silveresque told me that I shouldn't write/communicate like that in this very thread. It cost me a lot of power and energy because do you see all those Ti elements lol? I simplified it so I could continue later without forgetting where I was. That's astro 101 btw. How you should think inside while doing a reading and then when cross referenced with other aspects, you find the most likely fact. That's why words sometimes change etc. What would "Transformation modifies transformation" mean otherwise? Hint: Inception looper style oooh.
> 
> How are you overall satisfied?


Yes, that was pretty good! Thanks for your reading. It got me interested in further interpretations of aspects in the natal chart. 

Hmmm, yes, too systematic for my taste. 

Still not sure about socionics though... The descriptions by Filatova do not help me out either.


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## Recede (Nov 23, 2011)

Ixim said:


> Like I am thinking aloud more than talking/interacting with a person? Ah crap! It's a personal defect, to which I readily admit. I prefer thinking aloud to talking to people. Much less resistance and stupidity that way(and you sort your impressions much, MUCH better that way). Thank you for this. This could help me greatly in future. Specifically when in job interviews and such.


I didn't really see it as a defect, more like your personal style. Learning flexibility can be helpful in general, but the way you are is fine too. 



Ixim said:


> And for the second, forgive my obliviousness, but how?


I think some common parts of the hidden agenda in general (not just Ni HA) are that it often involves conviction, and that everyone else sees the weakness of it but you. So you might think you're really good at it, but others can see that it isn't so. 

It stood out to me when you said you have "irrefutable proof" of your type. There is no such thing, so this already might suggest a weaker function, a hidden agenda. Then you go on with your Ni interpretations, which to me and others in this thread seemed baseless and overconfident.

@_ruskiix_ worded it well when she said you could use a good Ni user to help you sort out the noise from the meaningful patterns. There's a difference between observing real and meaningful patterns, and merely interpreting something as meaningful. The human mind is programmed to look for patterns and meaning and is capable of finding them where there are none. If you're not guarding against self-imposed illusions, you will mistake them for reality.



Ixim said:


> Hey Silver! Do you think I sound more like an ESI or like an EII?
> 
> edit: curse you @_reckful_ !


You've always seemed like a clear ESI to me, and I think I had that impression even before you typed as ESI. Not to say my impression can't be wrong, but it's at least consistent.

You have a particular vibe that I've only ever seen in Ethical Ni types, and you seem Se too.


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## Ixim (Jun 19, 2013)

Silveresque said:


> I didn't really see it as a defect, more like your personal style. Learning flexibility can be helpful in general, but the way you are is fine too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. Now about this thing I thought about:

Is Anakin + Palpatine an example of ESI + LIE duality?


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## Thalassa (Jun 10, 2010)

A lot of people don't see themselves but who they wish they were or who they think other people want them to be. My ESFP had a real problem with the Keirsey test because I really thought he felt pressured while taking the test out loud with me (he's not a big test taker or paper writer) to claim his ultimate priority in life is what other people feel and being considerate and feeling, but he was squirming so much, looking so distressed, it was like a candid camera special of "what you think your mistress wants you to say so she'll keep giving you good sex". .when he came up as NF, I said oh no, that's definitely not right. I think he's definitely an EXFP, just not an ENFP. He was trying way too hard, his auxiliary Fi damming him to wanting to tailor his response to make me happy, but physically displaying feeling of inauthentic answers. People are fascinating. You really have to pay attention to them or you will miss something, which is why it's hard to type people. 

It's very easy for a similar type that isn't quite right also to agree to similar vague traits. Like sure yes I'm charming like an ENFP. But leaving out how I'll kill you in your sleep, not very NF like.


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## xraydav (Jan 3, 2013)

I think videos of yourself are a good way to avoid this. I mean, how does a psychiatrist reduce the forer effect, when making a diagnosis of a disorder on a person? They do so because they are well versed with clinical experience as well as, practiced, and they can take a look for the outside, while probing inside, by questioning. I think those personality cafe video challenges are a very good place to start to really take a step back and think about how the theory applies to you, after you've made your own. 

The forer effect is mainly for the person who sees through their own eyes, the criteria or the vague statements. Usually, it's not concerning someone observing another from the outside, and examining behaviours, thoughts and feelings.


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